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http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/132714p-118402c.html
--Randy B.
Why is Eric Gioia spreading falsehoods. The subway is far, far quieter than even one decade ago; and two decades ago the flat spots and stick rail had the trains sound like thunder (or a more accurate sound-effect to the analogy of “God bowling”). I myself am quite impressed as to how quiet the subway has gotten over the years—this being one thing that I must commend the MTA on doing and maintaining.
If Signor Gioia wishes whisper-quiet subways, then let him eat cake and provide funding for pneumatic tires for the subway trains, like in Paris, France…(heck, it may even help trains make grades better, so why not)
If Signor Gioia wishes whisper-quiet subways, then let him eat cake and provide funding for pneumatic tires for the subway trains, like in Paris, France(heck, it may even help trains make grades better, so why not)...
Or, let him move to Baltimore, where we actually do have relatively quiet subways (except at the Upton jog). Relatively BORING, also!
As for myself, I actually liked NYCTA's "track music" in the days of old. I especially remember a ride uptown on the Westside IRT express from 42 to 96 sts (this was '88 or '89). The track going thru stations was smooth, but between stations...classic railroad cacophany.
--Randy B.
Those lights (in L.A.) look like the ones used on Staten Island Rwy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
I guess you could say its "close enough" but another example of why you can't research history in the popular press. The station was Prospect Park, then as now. The tunnel portal was at Malbone Street, now Empire Blvd.
A grim and solemn day in New York transit history. Let us never forget those who perished.
wayne
I can think of several reasons that thecrash would not have been as severe if BRT Standards were used instead of the elevated train involved, but when talking of structural integrity, I wonder how R62s would have done, considering the devastation of the Union Square wreck.
Also, as it happens, the R62s are analogous in size to the BUs in the wreck.
INCREASED Speed may have been a factor... but in either case the 62s seem to have held
their posture better.... (yes, Virginia, I know they're made differently).
The wooden cars (#80 and #100) in the Malbone Street wreck pretty much disintegrated as a result of impacting with the tunnel walls and each other.
wayne
If we're comparing Malbone to Union Sqr, then let's also note that
in Union Sqr, the upper carbody of the 62s involved didn't TIP FORWARD like the Malbone cars did.
I know of no evidence that the Malbone Street cars tipped forward. The picture below shows 80 and 100 (the two trailers) that were the most damaged. The cars tipped SIDEWAYS as the result of angular acceleration.
INCREASED Speed may have been a factor... but in either case the 62s seem to have held their posture better.... (yes, Virginia, I know they're made differently).
Increased speed of which train? The best estimates suggest the Malbone Street train was going 35 to 40 mph as it entered the curve. How fast was the Union Square train going?
Wayne said:
Well, in the Union Square wreck, #1437 (first car) whiplashed so violently that its rear swung round clockwise and collided with the girders, cutting off the last 15 feet or so, #1439 (second car) bounced off the ceiling and wall but stayed on its feet, #1440 (third car) almost got cut in two when #1439 tried to pull it into the clearing and it hit the girders sideways and the next two (#1436 and #1435) suffered damaged ends plowing into #1440. So aside from the first two cars I would have to agree with you there.
The wooden cars (#80 and #100) in the Malbone Street wreck pretty much disintegrated as a result of impacting with the tunnel walls and each other.
Which perpetuates the common misconception that the Malbone Street cars telescoped ("impacting [...] each other"). Fischler says: "The third car had so much velocity behind it, it fused with the second." Nonsense, they did not. Again, see the picture above, the platforms were largely intact.
Remember also, only two cars, the trailers, about half the weight of the motor cars and a much higher center of gravity, suffered severe damage.
The train was made up of 726-80-100-725-1064.
726, 80 and 100 derailed. 726 suffered about $700 worth of damage (1918 dollars, 1/2 material, 1/2 labor), 80 and 100 were effectively demolished.
But 725 and 1064 did not derail. 725 suffered $500 worth of damage, 1064 no damage at all.
************
And remember the point: Mayor Hylan summed up the issue in two words: "Wooden Cars" but the Union Square cars were all steel, and all motors. The saving grace of Union Square (if there was one) was that it occurred early in the day. If it had occurred in rush hour, as Malbone Street did, it might easily have eclipsed the latter for horror.
Union Square - speed varies by account. The press reported a speed of 45MPH entering the switch; I would tend to agree with other accounts giving the speed in the neighborhood of 35-40MPH. The time of the accident was 0011 hrs; and even at that hour the train was reported to be fairly well loaded, with passengers standing.
Two what-ifs: 1) what if that trainset been link-barred (this was said to be the last one still needing the link-bar treatment)
2) what if that trainset had been made up of Jerome's 9200-series R33?
wayne
Had the tunnel walls been smooth, rather than "serrated" with protruding girders, 80 and 100 might now have been so completely destroyed.
Paul, Did you find it unusual that there were two trailers coupled together, instead of a motor-trailer-motor-trailer-motor combination ?
Would a M-T-M-T-M consist still have derailed under the same circumstances ?
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW - Like the calendar ?
Paul, Did you find it unusual that there were two trailers coupled together, instead of a motor-trailer-motor-trailer-motor combination ?
It was unusual and was blamed on hasty and perhaps unskilled make-up of trains because of the strike.
Would a M-T-M-T-M consist still have derailed under the same circumstances ?
Probably the wreck would at least have been less severe. It was reliably speculated that, if the third car had been a motor it would have stablized the train. As it was the fact that the third car (100)was a top heavy trailer made the wreck worse by pulling 80 further off the track. The damage to 80 was greater at the rear (i.e., next to 100) than at the front. The lead motor 726 did derail but suffered relatively minor damage despite the fact that it hit the S-curve at the highest speed. Neither of the two rear motors derailed.
So your speculation is valid.
BTW - Like the calendar ?
Sorry I haven't mentioned it yet. I haven't had the time to give it the attention it deserves. But I can easily say, of the three I've seen it's the BEST yet! Seriously! I love some of the pix, like the color view on Liberty Ave while the IND ramp was being built. I also like the MS in the wilds of Canarsie and some really pretty shots of modern equipment.
P.S. Salaamallah will swoon for that pix of a redbird on the Washington Mall!
It was unusual and was blamed on hasty and perhaps unskilled make-up of trains because of the strike.
Stan Fischler said in his book that despite careful research, he was never able to find a photograph of a BRT consist with two trailers coupled together.
Where and in which book? What is the context? Is he saying that wasn't the consist of the Malbone Street train?
Ah, you meant Cudahy, not Fischler.
The point is taken, but there is no doubt that the trailers should not have been coupled together. SOP was to place M-T-M-T-M--never two trailers together.
Exactly how the Malbone train ended up M-T-T-M-M is curious. Frankly, I can't picture how it happened, but undoubtedly has something to do with confusion from the strike.
Oops, you're right. I constantly confuse the two.
And if the R62's were involved in the Malbone Street wreck then the loss of life would of been reduced greatly.
If he wasn't the worst Mayor in the history of this city, Hylan certainly was the craziest and most paranoid.
Actually he could have been an excellent mayor, he was intelligent and a "self-made man." His weaknesses included that he was a protege of William Randolph Hearst, who both schooled him in demagoguery and shared his hatred for "the traction interests."
I think he personalized his hatreds too much, even for a politician.
He's also the guy responsible for the installation of one of the worst pieces of public sculpture in history, "Civic Virtue". It was originally set up in front of City Hall to almost universal derision, and was ulitimately dispatched to Queens Borough Hall by Fiorello LaGuardia.
No matter what he was, the fact is the same: untrained for the job he took.
According to Brian Cudahy's book, which is probably the most authoritative account of Malbone Street, Edward Luciano was a dispatcher. It was a largely clerical job that entailed keeping track of what motormen were assigned to what lines, and things of that sort.
Some dispute exists over exactly how much motorman training Luciano actually had. In addition to the minimal training he received right before being pressed into duty, it is possible that he got more extensive training some months prior to the wreck. It may have been given as prelude to a anticipated promotion or just to improve his dispatcher performance. No one seems to know for sure, or for that matter just how extensive the training really was. In any event, the fact that Luciano was selected to fill in for striking motormen - almost surely, most non-operating BRT workers were not so chosen - may indicate that his supervisors knew that he already had some exposure to motorman duties and would pick it up quickly.
IOW, there were no flat spots or other irregularities in any of the wheels that would have suggested the application of emergency brakes, either before or during the wreck.
A major problem in Malbone Street research is that Luciano had to depend on the company's version of the wreck to avoid conviction. It was not the era when an accused had a team of lawyers to make up a plausible version for himself. Nowadays, Luciano would be assisted by three teams of individuals: a lawyer team to portray him as a victim of the Company; an investigatory team to poke holes in the police and prospectution accounts ("what, you didn't take fingernail scrapings to prove Mr. Luciano was even on that train?", and spin doctors to promote his future best-selling book.
My point is that Luciano himself had the answers to a number of questions that have been proposed and (IMO) mostly answered by forensics. But there are issues of motive that he could have answered himself, but he couldn't before the trial, and there was no 1919 version of Woodward & Bernstein (or Larry King, or Oprah, or...) to follow up.
There is room for expanision to the north of the presently shown terminal at 116th Street, and there is a possibility of a line running south along the West Side Drive past the WTC site and thence on to Staten Island.
with the following details downtown, observe how it does not connect with or disturb any existing service downtown.
Elias
I saw that when I superimposed my new route on top of may master map.
I did some reworking of the route:
Now it will only run under the (L) in the vicinity of Lorimer Street, making a good (albeit deep) connection with both the (L) and the (GG).
Elias
It is on a small server in my office, running on a rebuild pentium nee 486 with a static DSL line.
Try it again, otherwise I can email them to you.
(Email runs on the same server, and it is working.)
Elias
It looks like it would be simpler (and would avoid multiple levels on Metropolitan Av) to run the L train under Bushwick and Utica whilst running your new line via South 4th St and under the former Bushwick Terminal to take over the Canarsie Line at Jefferson St.
Yes, but... This is a carefully thought out thing (I think). The new line comes in on the unused tracks at the Second Avenue station, the ones that the designers had intended to go to South 4th Street anyway. From there, and without normal interlocking to the existing IND, they will divert to Bleeker Street for their cross town transit to 9th Avenue. Bleeker Street was chosen for although the line will have to be verry deep to clear all of the existing routes, it is otherwise free of subterianian infrastructure at the depths that this line will pass.
Indeed, I am thinking that the city ought to pass a law to the effect that property owners do not own the land all the way down to the bed rock, but only to a depth of x number of feet. Transit lines could then bore through the bedrock with little regard to surface property rights, with the caveat that they not undercut or cause damage to the existing surface structures.
Elias
Tom Kelly
John J. McCarthy
(212) 878-7440
IMMEDIATE
#60
FINAL REDBIRD SUBWAY TRAIN RETIRED FROM PASSENGER SERVICE
On Monday, November 3, 2003 the last of the 40-year-old Redbird subway
cars will be retired from passenger service. Retirement of the Redbirds
from service was made possible through the MTAs 2000-2004 Capital
Program investment of $2 billion in high-tech subway cars that are more
comfortable and reliable.
At approximately 10:30 a.m. on Monday, the 11-car Redbird train will
leave Times Square on its last passenger run, making all local stops
along the No. 7 Flushing Line to Willets Point/Shea Stadium. MTA
Chairman Peter S. Kalikow, MTA Executive Director Katherine N. Lapp and
NYC Transit President Lawrence G. Reuter will be on board for the
historic trip. The train will be removed from service upon arrival at
Willets Point and placed on Track 2 for a press conference.
Those wishing to make the trip should be on the Times Square No. 7
platform at about 10:15 a.m. The press conference at Willets Point/Shea
Stadium is scheduled to being at 11:15 a.m.
-Stef
Say, are you that Redbird fan who's losing sleep over their demise ? Well after November 3rd.....sweet dreams !
Bill "Newkirk"
Overcooked statement from the TA Kitchen.
Them 142s have YET to prove themselves reliable...
Comfortable??? Only if you like sitting in seats only a chiropractor could love to pieces.
PUNCTUALITY seems to have more to do with how it is OPERATED.
wayne
Will this be broadcast LIVE anyplace??
It would be nice if there would be some sort of "last run" signs or logos on the cars to mark the occasion.
I'm at peace with this. I said my goodbyes to them on Friday, Oct. 24. Let's just say I am thankful for having had one last opportunity to ride on them.
No doubt you know this - the Orange Line originally was a traditional el from Forest Hills to just before Chinatown, and from North Station through Charlestown to Everett. Both stretches were replaced with newer surface or open cut lines in 1975 (northern part) and 1987 (southern part).
But you're right... another piece of el history will go away. Fortunately the wonderful el will remain from the Charles River through Science Park to Lechmere.
I find Chambers St/BMT the most interesting.
Elias
My vote is with Broadway-Nassau -- at least from the passengers perspective.
CG
I don't understand. In 1931, the Cranberry tunnel (now A/C) wasn't there yet. The Nassau St line wouldn't have crossed a single other subway line, except for the current 2/3 at Beekman St., on its way from Canal to the Montague Tunnel.
Nassau St may be very narrow, which is why they needed the 2-level station, but it wasn't particularly congested with other train tracks the way Herald Square was.
BTW, what was your old handle?
The genius part of your post was way uncalled for though.
It does take some getting used to. For example, the passageways from the Q/W platform to the 6 don't go straight up, but go at quite an angle. Once the R wasn't running so I wanted to go over to the uptown 6, and I was surprised that I pretty much had to walk all the way to the J/Z to get to the uptown 6.
Also, IIRC getting to the uptown J/M/Z from the street is confusing because you have to enter at the downtown side.
Agreed. It badly needs a re-do. Canal Street Hub, anyone?
And special guest starring appearance by AirTrain. :)
OTOH, you can't beat Jamaica for vertical complexity:
-Airtrain/crossover
-LIRR platforms
-LIRR mezzanine/crossunder
-ground / LIRR ticketing
-TA fare control
-E
-J/Z
Go down 1 flight of stairs to the LIRR concourse, walk east, and go up a flight.
Not convenient? Well, it is close to 1/5 of a mile, so how convenient can it be? It's the distance that's the issue here, not the complexity.
If only the LIRR could figure out a way to get rush-hour expresses to bypass Jamaica at a speed in excess of 10 mph. Considering they've had many decades to figure it out, I'm not too hopeful.
But the Feds said, "you spent too much on Hillside Facility." The LIRR said "oh, well, getting through Jamaica fast isn't as important as we thought it was."
Wayne
Some parts of Broadway Nassau have passageways outside the fare control area that let you walk underground for quite some distance (But not like 47-50 Sts on the IND)
Broadway Junction upper level is quite the sight when you see all the steelwork from the J/Z/L Lines.
Which are the 2 stations on the IND 6th Ave line where there used to be a passageway between the 2 stations because they were so close together? Was it 34th to 42nd? Or 42nd to 47-50 Sts? It was mentioned before but I forgot.
This is what I live for...
It is NOT gone, but it was never TA or City property (as far as I can figure things out.)
As far as I can tell, it was built in the building vaults (of Gimbles and of the Hotel), that is under the sidewalk, not under the street.
Since with the demise of Gimbles and its subsequent tenents, nobody could agree to clean and patrol the tunnel, and because, as I have said, it is private property, the liability for such said tunnel is huge.
Elias
Maybe I shouldn't have said gone. Like the passageway between 34 and 42 Street under 6 Avenue, the one from 6 to 7 Avenues is CLOSED.
Maybe the City should condemn and seize it, for it would be an asset to the transit infrastructure.
Elias
- Times Sq.
- Broadway Junction
- Herald Sq.
- Fulton Street
- Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.
- Canal St./Broadway
- Union Square
Koi
As for complex trackage, that honor surely goes to DeKalb.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Complex (as a whole): Times Square AND Port Authority. Honorable Mention, Fulton St/Broadway Nassau
Express stop only: 34th st/IRT 7th Ave
Local Stop only: 15th St Prospect Park/IND (Try this maze)
Most Interesting station: 174-175th sts/IND Concourse Line. One time this station had 6 different exits and is the only underground station that sits atop an expressway (Cross Bronx Expressway). Pretty much, most stations on the Concourse Line are very interesting because of the former and current underpass exits. Very few stations actually required you to go downstairs in order to exit the station.
What shit are these people smoking and where can I get some?
#3 West End Jeff
Exterior (5):
To Eastchester:
Old (5): TO E'CHESTER-DYRE
New (5): TO EASTCHESTER-DYRE
To Nereid Av:
Old (5): To NEREID AV
New (5): TO NEREID AV-238
Interior (5):
To Eastchester:
No change
To Nereid Av:
Old (5): TO NEREID AV
New (5): TO NERIED AV-238ST
Exterior (6):
To Parkchester:
Old (6): TO PARKCHESTER
New (6): TO PARKCHESTER AV
To Pelham Bay Park:
Old (6): TO PELHAM BAY PK
New (6): TO PELHAM BAY PARK
To Brooklyn Bridge
Old (6): TO BKLYN BRIDGE
New (6): TO BROOKLYN BRIDGE
Interior (6):
To Parkchester:
Old (6): TO PARKCHESTER
New (6): TO PARKCHESTER AV
To Pelham Bay Park:
No change
To Brooklyn Bridge:
No change
Other things on <6>
LEXINGTON AVENUE EXP
BRONX LOCAL
This is just unacceptable.
about a month ago, a typical new haven and harlem OMEGA board would say:
1230 N. WHITE PLAINS FORDHAM 1ST STOP
1240 STAMFORD MOUNT VERNON 1ST STOP
1252 BREWSTER NORTH WHITE PLAINS 1ST STOP
NOW LOOK AT THE SAME BOARD A MONTH LATER OR SO
1230 N. WHITE PLAINS FORDHAM 1ST STOP
1240 STAMFORD MT VERNON EAST 1ST STOP
1252 SOUEAST (BR. N) WHITE PLAINS 1ST STOP
If the 2 is running on Lexington Av in both directions, it is really a 5.
-Stef
some even have BROOKLYN LOCAL? just use the 5 TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST or get the r 62s.....E 241 St White Plains Road Bronx
man the MTA really needs to get their act together here
And all of the trains I saw yesterday had 5 to Nerid Avenue so I don't know what you seen.
Try this......
http://www.mta.info/nyct/trantran/showsch.htm
Bill "Newkirk"
This is what the final assignment will be (subject to change but unlikely at this point):
1/9: R62A
2: R142
3: R62
4: R62A, R142, R142A
5: R142
6: R142A
7: R62A
S: R62A based out of Jerome
some lines and cars just go together, like the 7 and the R36. The 4 and R62. The A and R44. Too bad the the 7 has lost much of its R36's. It had for many years kept a exclusive model class of cars to itself. Maybe when the next IRT car order comes, the 7 will again get a model of cars for itself.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Mind the gap!
wayne
2. Is the 5 terminating at Flatbush, or Bowling Green(since I saw Flatbush on the train, even though Bowling Green can be displayed for (5) and <5>)?
O.Zamora
The Van Courtlandt Madman
BTW what did the 5 trains say going N/B? did you say any WAKEFIELD-241 ST?
The 5 trains were signed to Nerid Avenue local (The outside said Bronx Express but the interior signs and announcements were for local)
VC Madman
VC Madman
All you have to do is tell them the (2) is running on the east side, what is the problem? unless they think there is no 5 train and they will squeeze on the 4
Also the 5 has updated announcements and can call itself 7 AV EXPRESS
while the 2(unless it is an updated 5) usually won't say LEXINGTON AV EXP
Again I say they should use r62s for this job.
At least the off peak <5> had redbirds......(which would take care of anyone actually thinking it is a BRONX EXPRESS) the r142s are pitiful, hopefully the r142S can have 5 TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST(which would have easily been there if it wasn't for that 241 st terminal congestion crap in 1995) but again the MTA likes to do things the hard way
As for why there isn't a 5 to WAKEFIELD sign, I have no idea, but Neried Avenue isn't that bad.
Moving R62s or R62As for this is a waste of time. As usual, everyone is handling it fairly well except for you.
-Stef
That's what I'm trying to say as you have mentioned, but I guess the GreatOne sees what he wants to see. Whatever, I won't waste my breath.
-Stef
-Stef
----
and all sorts of unused street names
----
what sorts of unused names? all the names that I used are used and/or recognized by others. Even the maps still recognized old names, like 7th in Harlem, etc so don't get on me for that. Plus the old Queens(and others) street names threads that pop up in here as well.
Enough about street names, I was talking about the equipment issue here, and I heard someone telling the S/A about a C/R or T/O switching a 2 to 5 which causes more confusion. So don't think this is just me here(as you generally seem to think)
I was pointing out the all of the r142s are not capable of some announcements(2 AND 5). And yes the TA should have used some 5 train equipment(if the didn't already) since they share yards. But since they want to do things their way..... I will let the customers voice their complaints to News 12 or NY1 since the MTA is already unpopular(and you can't say it is only me then, now can you)
And yes this is me seeing what I "want to see" or whatever so there
This is NYC, don't you know that old names die hard? 69th Street Pier...anyone
Now that I know that they were using only 2 trains(I thought some were using 5 train equipment) the lack of 241 St is understoodalthough the 5 trains aren't that updated as well, so there still woul be a problem for accuracy (although I still think something should be done about it)
That however doesn't excuse any trains being signed for E 180 ST(in both directions) or E'CHESTER-DYRE, that is still inexcusable regardless of what you say
Yeah I sure do see what I want to see
but let me clear this misunderstanding up to clear and ignorance(as you put it) here
1. I already know the #2(and #5) electric signage isn't updated(which proves a point I made before about the r 142s not being better equipped for the job) that's why I brought this up in the first place and why I suggested other cars to be used. And that is also why I hope that the r142S would be better prepared for this, ugh.
2. I originally thought they were using some #5 trains on this, not just all #2 trains(since the #5 was running as a shuttle and #2 and #5 share yards here), but since they were using #2 train equipment, I GET IT(although I think it was a dumb move, but that's my opinion). But as I said before the r 142s are pathetic so it wouldn't make much difference which equipment they used(unless I am wrong about the #5 equipment not having WAKEFIELD-241 ST, if so then feel free to correct me). Of course common sense would have the MTA to use as much 5 equipment as possible since most of the stops(except Brooklyn local) would be covered more accurately on the strip map and on the announcements.
3. But of course there is something I do not understand....well actually maybe I should, as to why C/Rs and/or T/Os are putting obviously incorrect signage up like E 180 ST and E'CHESTER-DYRE during this G.O.. And switching 2 and 5 signage in the middle of the route, doesn't help either(but lack of crew training or laziness is really the problem in most of those cases).
And that is "what I see" for some of you
You just don't get it. Its not a matter of C/R laziness, its a conductor trying to work through a situation. Maybe he should have put all signage off and made manual announcements.
If the signage had been updated, there would be no need for the C/R to sign the cars up for Eastchester-Dyre or East 180th St. But I will admit, if the #5 assigned cars had been used with the updated announcements that would have worked better.
If you still don't understand, then I can say no more. How many times can I say something to you and it completely passes in one ear and out the other?
-Stef
Ugh, let me make this simpler here...since we are obviosly looking at this from different views here
I thought ALL #2s CAN show 5 TO NEREID AV(I saw this before with a #2 strip map) OK, if they ALL CAN'T show that(which would be really sad) then yes some C/Rs had to work with what they had and I UNDERSTAND THAT. I just didn't get why they would be using Dyre, if Nereid was on the program. That is the way I was looking at it(that is what #3 was referring to). Note I said if Nereid WAS ON THE PROGRAM, meaning if IT WASN'T, then 5 to E 180 or whatever would obviously have to be used, or the map although 5 to Dyre I still disagree with (unless the train doesn't have E 180 St on it). But some used 2 to 241... again I was going on the assumption that the #2 could show #5 from Flatbush-Nereid
But I heard many other #2 trains were showing Nereid and the 2 that I saw didn't, so I assumed that the crew didn't place the correct signs on those trains. That is why.... and also seeing an S/B train signed for E 180 ST didn't seem to help either(even you have to admit there was something wrong with that one)
But if there are some #2s out there that can't show Nereid then I GET IT, I just thought that all 2s could at least show all 5 "official" terminals, maybe I have given the r142s too much credit, who knows
hopefully you will finally understand what I am getting at here, or do you still think that I don't get it?
Am I right that the updated trains couldn't show 241? just asking, if so, then the point that I made still stands, that is also what I was mentioning, in saying that the #5 should be updated to be more flexible(and so should the #2 obviously)
So don't just think that "I see what I want to see"
Admittedly, I am not entirely familiar with the readings of the updated signage for R-142s on the 5. I would think the updated signage was far better on the 5 than that of the 2.
If only I had destination sign readings of the R-142s handy....
-Stef
As for night service, I would like to know also.
I eventually took a 1 down to 14th St, to the L to Union Square, to a 5 running express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn AFTER Nevins to get to Grand Army Plaza.
Sure it was nice that there was nothing posted about no 2 service, but if you're on the west side, that's pretty much the only late night route to Brooklyn via the IRT.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Here are the old "credit card" sized ones from earlier on:
See everyone on Monday -- Wear those nametags proudly!
I plan to wear one, although I may modify it using a custom image.
Take one of the larger tags. Print out the tag at 50% of it's size. Then paste it onto the back of a Metrocard. Don't paste the tag over the hole. Then rig a string or chain through the little hole in the card, and Viola!
That's how I am wearing my tag.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Some ML IRT runs in Manhattan are pretty exhilirating too.
THE NEXT STOP IS
BRONX PARK EAST
instead of
BRONX PARK E NEXT
THE NEXT STOP IS
NEREID AV-238 ST
instead of
NEREID AV NEXT
and other things like UNION SQ-14 ST need more room as well
It also is an indicator that this train is (somewhat) updated.
Updated
2 TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST
5 TO NEREID AV-238 ST
5 TO EASTCHESTER-DYRE
5 TO CROWN HTS-UTICA
6 TO PELHAM BAY PARK
6 TO BROOKLYN BRIDGE
Not updated
2 TO WAKEFIELD-241
5 TO NEREID AV
5 TO E'CHESTER-DYRE
5 TO FLATBUSH AV(trying to go to Utica of course)
6 TO PELHAM BAY PK
6 TO BKLYN BRIDGE
I am not counting 6 TO PARKCHESTER AV, because that is an obvious mistake and is an example of new tech taking a step backwards, but yes that does count for an updated 6 train
I bet a group of lawyers were paid for that.
Took an uptown <5> this evening from 59 Street to 86 Street. It was signed as a <5> going to Neireid (which I now know is correct. I thought it was strange that a 5 was going there on a Saturday, but now I know that it was planned, so the signs were correct).
The announcements were correct in regards to the (6) voice doing her appropriate parts, but the part of the bitch was played by someone else! There was a VERY pleasant voice doing the train identification messages and transfer messages! It wasn't the (6) voice, so I have no idea who it was. Long live the pleasant voice!
Also, on that same <5> train, the interior messages were flashing:
<5> TO NEREID xxxxx (I don't remember the full name of the stop.)
<5> 86 ST NEXT
<5> 5:03 PM
So this train said 86 ST NEXT instead of the usual THE NEXT STOP IS / 86 ST. I was about ready to die of insanity, but it wasn't over yet! Oh no....it certainly wasn't over yet.
Returning in the evening, I took a downtown (4) from 86 Street to 59 Street. The announcements on this train were done by the usual bitch/(6) combination, but the transfer messages were done BY THE GUY!!! And they were wrong! They didn't announce the (W) at 59th! I've never heard an incorrect transfer message for 59 Street on the (4) or (5), or one done by Charlie!
*passes out*
regular voice from the 2:"This is a Bronx bound 5 express train" sexy voice"The next stop is 138St-Grand Concourse" when before it was the sexy voice that was making all the announcements along with the voices from the 2!
O.Zamora
The Van Courtlandt Madman
regular voice from the 2:"This is a Bronx bound 5 express train" sexy voice"The next stop is 138St-Grand Concourse" when before it was the sexy voice that was making all the announcements along with the voices from the 2! Oh yes,and the 2 train strip map was on as well!
O.Zamora
The Van Courtlandt Madman
O.Zamora
The Van Courtlandt Madman
Link to lots of pages explaining the most commonly used HTML on the forums
Totally.
What do ya say?
No, the Savin Hill, Fields Corner, and Shawmut stations are being completely rebuilt (Charles/MGH, too).
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC about 1958 there was a light (empty) train going thru the same S-curve. It had a properly trained T/O and was going onto the curve at 3MPH. The train derailed and hit the tunnel wall like the other train did. Nobody was hurt. And the train wasn't badly damaged.
Talk amongst yourselves, I'm schpilkis. :)
I had always thought the later derailment was with some old BMT cars.
Some new dreaded disease, highly contagious with a 100% death rate?
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
The walls looked more like the Chrystie Street tunnel.
What am I not getting here. What are the walls like in the tunnel under Washington Ave. on the outbound side of the shuttle?
As a matter of fact, the Franklin Shuttle does not *nromally* run through that tunnel at all.
That tunnel brings the Franklin Shuttle into the southbound local track of the Brighton line. Basically it is almost into the north edge of the Parkside Station.
Get off of a Brighton bound Q train, at the rear of the station, and look down the local track. I do not know (since I have never tried it) if you will see the wreck site, but you ought see the tunnel.
Elias
Which jaggedness probably contributed to the death and destruction. Derailment against smooth tunnel walls might not have been so devastating.
Moreover, the power was resumed within a minute or two after the crash, as shown by powerhouse time records, which is before many people could have climbed out of the cars onto the trackbed.
what a fun saturday night.
tim
wayne
Do they have ability to operate over the bridge on the weekend in the event of a blockage??
So today, I had to go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for a school project. Just for the heck of it, I decided to take the Q44 Limited all the way down to Jamaica Center to catch the (E) at the first stop. I wanted to railfan all the way to Lexington Avenue - 53 Street to see how accurate the BVE route was. (There really IS a "36 MILE" sign between 71-Continental Ave and Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights!!) The T/O had his leg out, propping his door all the way open until we hit Union Tpke. I stood just behind him so he wouldn't be able to really see me, but so he would know my presence was there. Right before we got to Union Tpke., he finally closed it, so I went right up to the window for my perfect view.
Well as luck would have it, while we were stopped at Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights, the C/R made an announcement saying that the (E) was running on the (F) line, and that the next stop would be 21 Street - Queensbridge!! What luck! I get to forcibly go through the 63rd St. tunnel!
It was a nice ride. From my experience riding the (F) through there, I know it gets rather slow from 36 Street to 21 Street. But this T/O took us through there pretty fast! I nearly got thrown out of my position on one of the turns. I decided to ride the (E) back to Queens after I was done with the museum.
After returning to the Lexington Avenue - 63 Street station, I just missed an (F), which I didn't care about anyway, so I walked to the far end of the platform and sat down. Shortly after, an (E) came in, but there was already someone at the window. Some punkish looking guy, who was leaning against the door, and seemed to be standing there if only to prevent me from looking out. So I let that (E) go and sat down to wait for the next one. I expected an (F) to come next, but no! Four minutes later another R-32 pulls in. Window open. I run on, and, CRAP! The T/O has his leg out, and he's holding his door open. So I stood just behind him again, just out of his peripheral vision. I didn't want to make it look like I was staring into his cab, because I wasn't. There's nothing special about an R-32 cab anyway. I was just trying to get the best possible view out of what LITTLE I could see of the railfan window.
Anyway, the T/O noticed I was there, because after we stopped at Roosevelt Island, he jumped out of his seat and started staring me directly in the eye. I pretended I didn't see him staring me down by looking off to my left a little. After the doors closed, he sat back down to continue driving, but he still kept his door propped open. I resumed watching from where I was, getting a couple more nasty glances from him. With nothing more to see, I got off at Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights and caught an R-62A into Flushing. Whoop-dee-doo. But as I was getting off at Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights, I glanced at the roll sign and noticed that it said the train was going to 179 ST! I'm all like, "What the hell? *lol* The (E) doesn't go to 179th St.!" Then I looked down..........
The train was actually an (F).
Ya know, I SHOULD'VE stood next to the T/O cab and stared right in for the duration of the trip. Maybe then he would've closed the door if he didn't want to be watched. Why are T/O's so "private" anyway? Bus operators don't get any privacy.
As for R32 F's, been there, done that. I've seen so mant R32's F, it's not funny. You have a better chance on the weekends, though.
wayne
I'm hoping the RF god has mercy on the ACMUs...
It's a free country...
If you fail, will you immediately be sent to hell?
Don't the R-46s already have that black coating over the window to prevent glare? Same with the R-142s and R-143s. I don't think that a newspaper would be necessary.
Besides, the R-62A's don't have coating OR newspaper. But then again, those windows are a lot smaller.
It's extremely common on weekends for E's to run via the F between Roosevelt and 2nd Avenue. Check the weekly service advisories.
Give the T/O a break. They are responsible for the safety of up to 3,000 people on a train. If the T/O you got is uncomfortable with your standing there, find a seat, sit down and do your "railfanning" next time. You owe it to the other passengers to not do anything which could distract a T/O's attention. If a T/O doesn't mind your being up at the front window, that's fine, but that's the T/O's decision, not yours. People's safety is more important than whether or not you got to railfan the 63rd Street tunnel.
You can always hang out in the rear car. You'll see pretty much anything you want except the signals without bothering anyone.
By the way: Bus drivers don't like people constantly looking over their shoulders and hanging over the front windshield.
Fair enough?
However, I stand by my comments too:
To all rail buffs: When a T/O looks like he/she is uncomfortable with your standing next to them, closed door or not, SIT YOUR ASS DOWN IN A SEAT OR MOVE AWAY FROM THE CAB. PERIOD.
First, when were these two cars taken out of regular service and sent to their current owners? Was 1612C designated for historic service in 1965 or was it later?
Second, does anyone know 1612C's original as-built (1907) number?
Also, if anyone has any idea what type of motor, control, truck or braking these cars had I'd be interested.
Thanks in advance, and also MANY thanks to the people who have posted responses to my earlier questions!
Frank Hicks
First, when were these two cars taken out of regular service and sent to their current owners? Was 1612C designated for historic service in 1965 or was it later?
Do you mean these particular cars? That I don't know. But of course the Q's left service in 1969 with the end of the Myrtle L.
Second, does anyone know 1612C's original as-built (1907) number?
1417.
Also, if anyone has any idea what type of motor, control, truck or braking these cars had I'd be interested.
Don't know if I have these details or not. But I know the QS ended up with those lousy maximum traction trucks from the Composites.
Frank Hicks
The BMT standards had similar trucks with one powered axle each.
The wheel diameters that stick in my mind are 34" and 31", but I'm not sure that's right.
The Q cars were built from 1400 series motors on the ends (A and C
cars) and 1200 series trailers (or de-motorized 1200 motors) as
the middle B car.
The trailer cars had Peckham 40 trucks. The motor cars had one
ALCO Z-380 truck with a pair of WH 300 motors and a Peckham 40
trailer truck. Control was WH251-I3.
In the 1950s, when these cars were sent to cover the 3rd Ave L,
they received the trucks which the IRT Composites had gotten
in 1915 when those cars went to the L. These were IRT special
trucks, sometimes called "Hedley Specials" after the President
of the IRT. The IRT subway trucks had the usual arrangement of
two motors on one truck and a trailer truck. This was too much
weight concentration for the older elevated structures so the
new truck was designed with one 120HP motor (GE259?) per truck.
The motor axle had slightly larger wheels than the trail axle.
Because of the smaller motor (120 vs 200 hp) these trucks were
slightly lower than either the ALCO trucks originally under the
Qs or the IRT subway trucks originally under the composites.
1400s were fast cars at 400 hp per car, but the later-day Qs
with 240hp per car and a 2/3 motor/trailer ratio were slow.
There are rumors that some Composite bodies have survived somewhere
in the midwest.
Frank Hicks
The "restored" train of "BU's" still have the lowered roof that all the Q's got. Despite the "backdating", including the removal of the doors and the ends and the work to close the car sides to the BU state, nothing was done to bring back the orginal trucks, not like NYCT has them just sitting around in CI.
And for those interested in a very historical World Trade Center / PATH item, see eBay number 2200138712, and for those interested in the Rockaway Peninsula see eBay item 2200140741.
Additional photos are on this Webshots page.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, this Q Train will be rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge, for service to City Hall, Cortland, Rector, Whitehall and lawrence street, Tranfers to the Available brooklyn bound W train at the Canal Street N R platform. The next stop on this Q train will be dekalb Ave."
"Once again, Passengers who are heading City Hall, Cortland, Rector, Whitehall and lawrence street must transfer to the brooklyn bound W train at the Canal Street NR platform."
Well, it about time that the DOT has finally finished the Southside repair work! NO Ratholes for the Q :)
Must be weird things going on. When I look at his posting it says posted Sun Nov 2 03:49:56.
Rathole is the offical Subtalk term for the Montague. The name has been established through force of hundreds (thousands?) of repetitions of the word by Sea Beach Fred.
Damned near CHIT myself when I actually went down and RODE a few in 2001 ... and MIND ya, I'm *USED* to "rot" ... I worked in the hole in the early 70's when the whole system was already "el toro caca" ... Even when the LoV's and the arnines got their date with "Torchy," they were still in *FAR* better shape than the rotbirds when THEY were "retired." :(
Good old New York Times - all rhetoric and jingoism, and BS for journalism. :(
Reality - the els were indeed painted with lead paint. So was everybody's APARTMENT! When a landlord hires a contractor to "repaint and mitigate," they bring in people to scrape off what *CAN* be scraped off the original bare wood and sheetrock/plaster ... STILL some lead remains despite the best efforts. In older DUMPS, there's plenty of layers still that were just painted over with flat latex. I wouldn't WORRY about the els, I'd worry about the window casement, ESPECIALLY if it still opens ... :(
Yo! Mark GREEN! Where is ya? :)
This means the WHOLE OCEAN is contaminated!
And even worse than Lead Paint is Dihydrogen Monoxide
but getting back to the els I do not think you will find someone kid picking up a paint peal off the street from an El and putting it in their mouth. that will most likely happen off someones old window sill
CV-66; if I recall corrected, was already ordered when CVN-65, the Enterprise, was launched as the first nuclear-powered carrier in the fleet (Enterprise was accompanied by the USS Bainbridge, DDGN-25, and the cruiser Long Beach, CGN-9, making up the world's first nuclear-powered naval task force). America and Kennedy (CV-67, still on active duty) were the last oil-fired carriers to join the fleet.
From the Nimitz on all carriers are nuke, the Enterprise is still active, long beach and brainbridge were scrapped a few years ago. I wonder what they did with the reactors. and the news paper is worried about lead base paint
Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.
5-Because all 2 service is suspended all 5 trains will be making all 2 stops in the Bronx and Brooklyn via the Lexington Avenue line
3-All 3 trains will terminate at 137 street City College
4/6-All GO's scheduled for this weekend have been canceled.
Also if this keeps up tonight due to this recent fire: as in the past weekend, when the 3 does not run late night, every other 2 will be rerouted to 137/CC. Fortunately when I had to deal with this Saturday night it didn't seem to affect the Bronx too much early on and headway remained the same.
There were photo ops the past three nights, however, but I guess no one acted on it.
Your Always Questioning Railfan,
Chuck
Michael
Washington, DC
An LRV.... HMmmmmm......
Elias
Yes it is. But on these old bridges. Yes they were built with rails in mind, but that was 100 years ago. Trains are heavier and faster, and trains do seem to go through tunnels faster than over bridges.
Still, I am sold on the idea of a 34th Street Mall...
With LRV running between large park-and-ride garages both in Queens and in New Jersey. For the Joisey side, yes, I am thinking a tunnel, but for the East Puddle side, I am thinking of a slender arching bridge leaping the line across the river, just the line with no provision for non-rail vehicles, although a pedestrian walk might be nice.
Yes it is. But on these old bridges. Yes they were built with rails in mind, but that was 100 years ago. Trains are heavier and faster, and trains do seem to go through tunnels faster than over bridges.
Still, I am sold on the idea of a 34th Street Mall...
With LRV running between large park-and-ride garages both in Queens and in New Jersey. For the Joisey side, yes, I am thinking a tunnel, but for the East Puddle side, I am thinking of a slender arching bridge leaping the line across the river, just the line with no provision for non-rail vehicles, although a pedestrian walk might be nice.
Well, it does not need to be any higher than the Brooklyn or Queensboro bridges. Trains are already on the 02 level when they come off 34th Street, so they will not have to climb as fast as those on the MannyB. The park-and-ride, depending on where it built, could have the LRV connections on the 03 or 04 levels...
Seems quite doable to me.
Elias
However, when it did have trains, one of the W train's predecessors on the Astoria Line most certainly went across it. Whether it went to City Hall or South Ferry, I have no idea.
The Queensboro (aka 59th St.) Bridge had el trains on its upper deck, north side, from 1917 until 1942. It also had trolleys on the outboard lanes of the lower deck, which stopped running in April 1957, the last trolleys to run in New York City.
The Manhattan and Williamsburgh Bridges still have subway trains running on them, and will of course continue to have the trains. The best view is to take a J or M train over the Williamsburgh into Manhattan in the morning, when the sun is behind you and the Manhattan skyline is clearly visible ahead of you (sadly missing the WTC towers).
And on the subject of bridges - a neat bridge is on the 1/9 IRT subway between 215th and 225th Streets. The Broadway Bridge, which carries vehicular traffic below and subways on top, is a lift bridge with two tall towers. It crosses right over the Metro North Hudson Line at the Marble Hill stop.
And if I would have my way, those bridges would again be closed to automobiles. Make it busses, trucks and taxis only.
Elias
Regards,
Jimmy
J Approaching Marcy Avenue From The Willy B
J Entering Myrtle Avenue From Manhattan
J Exiting Marcy Avenue Towards Manhattan
A Nice Shot of a J Train Exiting Cypress Hills (Rich Color)
Another Shot of the same J Train Exiting Cypress
A Pic of a J Train Exiting Marcy Avenue Towards Manhattan
J Train Entering Cypress Hills From Manhattan with a nice forest Look in the Background
J Exiting Marcy Avenue Towards Jamaica Center
A Possible Fall Foliage Contest Contending Photo
An R-143M Train Posing Proudly
The Same M Train Posing in a slightly different Angle
An Old Style Photo Showing the Entire Length of the J Train at Cypress Hills
The Willamsburg Bridge and Buildings Reflect off the Rollsign of the J Train
Do you have any more photos further east on the Jamaica el (75th Street to 121st Street) ?
Seriously: I would guess they're going to open it up around the same time PATH reopens to WTC (Nov 23). Look for AirTrain to begin operating by Thanksgiving.
Howard Beach is much more nearly finished than Jamaica.
My point too. The previous poster was probably looking at the Jamaica section and saying no way it'll be ready this month.
Videocameras!
Or, they could do what they do at my school: Coat *all* the surfaces with this neat resin. After it gets scratched, you merely need to take a polisher and scrub over the scratch, and it disappears.
--Julian
P.S.
What kinds of vandalism do we tolerate on the subway?
Here's what I don't mind:
- The scratchiti that's actually done well, so well that it doesn't look like multiple scratches
- Cheap paint on the windows (I once cleaned one of those off with a wet napkin), they're the definition of "not permanent"
- And of course, the graffiti that was before my time, back in the 80's =)
Does anyone have any images of the vandalism that was talked about earlier in this thread?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
I can see what you mean about the 'panel tiling.' It doesn't look as authentic.
AND they may still do panel tile down in the IND. Look for spray-painted (usually red or orange) numbers on the original tile and/or
studs and cleats affixed to the walls.
wayne
The scariest thing is that large amount of the old tile has already been scrapped down by the MTA. What horror.
wayne
74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue will have art. It's the law. 1% of the budget for a station rehabilitation has to go for art.
David
wayne
wayne
www.bondo-online.com
wayne
Bill "Newkirk"
Be sure to wear your nametags! ^_^
Eddington PA (Note to engineer: thanks for the horns)
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Stills coming and going at Eddington and Eddystone
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
Larger versions of approach shots
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=37745
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=37746
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Next runs this weekend will feature Amtrak P32-8's for power.
Photos here
They'd make more money if they got ride of it, because it would draw residents and business back into the city, and there'd be more economic activity to tax in other ways.
Mark
I dont' know what it takes after the proposition though, unlike what some mayors seem to like to think, they don't have exclusive power.
Mark
I'm about 93% sure I am.
Is anything special going to happen, like an appearance by R-33wf 9306? That would sure tip the scale for me.
Koi
Regards,
Jimmy
Robert
wayne
Location was given as near 1st and Cortlandt Street Mt Vernon.
Sorry for posting misinformation.
wayne
Thanks
What was all this space meant for? Surely, the architects and engineers of the 70's & 80's (so brainwashed by minimalist, "form-follows-function", ethos of Le Corbusier and the Bauhaus) couldn't possibly have made that glorious space for aesthetic purposes only.
:0)
John
I've never really seen what's so great about St Pancras. Okay, it's a nice station (and so much better than either King's X or Euston - it's this comparison that probably makes it look so good), but I really prefer Paddington, the Brighton side of Victoria, and Waterloo. If dead stations count, the old Birmingham Snow Hill was quite magnificent, especially given the approach through the Great Western Arcade from Corporation Street.
For interior, to me there's nowhere quite like Paddington (please, please, please, don't knock down span 4!!!), although I can see the Grand Central thing (I had a poster of GCT on my room wall in Halls last year).
On the Underground, Baker St (H&C/Circle) wins for me. Pity the rest of the station isn't as good.
Paddington has a great interior, though here I would also give York an honourable mention as a through station. I cant comment on Birmingham.
There are two distinct styles here: Paddington and York have large open areas containing ticketing, waiting and trains. Grand Central has a wonderful atrium for ticketing and waiting, but the train areas below are nothing to write home about.
Baker Street has been nice ever since the late 70s when they cleaned the black brick and we discovered it was sandstone coloured underneath, and the indirect lighting was a great design idea!
John
I guess I take St Pancras somewhat for granted as a place to disappear into the underground from. It is also a very cold place to wait for the 2340 train back home.
Baker Street has been nice ever since the late 70s when they cleaned the black brick and we discovered it was sandstone coloured underneath
A sight evidently not seen for a hundred years.
Quite how did the Polo Grounds shuttle end up at 181st? (And I don't mean wise-ass routings like "reversing at 167th St then round the South Ferry loop".)
Mark
Grand Street on the ? line. Its always changing.
Grand Avenue - Newtown on the Queens Blvd IND.
Metropolitan Avenue/Grand Street - On the IND Crosstown
Another guy shouted that he loved briefs. Then he stripped to show us.
Nah, there rest of us here aren't surprised.
I'm also willing to venture that the retirement of these cars in 40 years will be greeted with as much if not more nostalgia as the retirement of the redbirds. For example, these were the first cars with automatic announcements and strips on the sides showing the next stop. In due time, these cars will develop their own personality just like the redbirds. And the ultimate passing of these cars will be just as sorrowful.
However, 30 or 40 years in the future will probably find me drooling - not because of the scrapping of the cars but just because I'll be drooling as a fact of daily life (if I have a daily life then).
Like I said, you do not deserve any awards for being a redbird lover. Sorry. Thanks for your cooperation.
I got it... you're going to fly the train to Cuba.
Sorry I can't be there this morning for the Big Event. Maybe I can see the train here.
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AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Wonder what it is? or maybe this guy is J. Beresford Tipton. :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It's funny, there's really no mention of the Hoboken el in either the Newark subway or Hudson-Bergen light rail pages- probably due to a lack of sources on this subject. Perhaps Kevin Walsh should do a Forgotten page on this long-gone elevated trolley line.
While most of the destinations looked familiar, I noticed that 137th Street, 96th Street, and 138th Street-3rd Avenue were also listed as destinations. I guess these are turnback points.
Michael
Washington, DC
Coming to NY on Thursday for 5 nights of dancing
Did you happen to ask the price?
I asked the price of the numberboards on the table first, and as a result felt there could be no dealing with that vender.
Gaithersburg is about 65 miles away.
I was telling you the distance I traveled to get to Gaithersburg. You obviously live a lot closer!
It be great next time we had a large SubTalker (or BusTalker, most of the DC people are on the other board) gathering in DC if you were able to join us. You would be more than welcome!
Each year I vow I am not going back to Gaithersburg because I am so intimadated by the traffic in trying to get back on I 270. I'm afraid that driving to DC would only be worse.
Something happened in my original message, probably because I used some symbols. The bottom sign was express (pointed to the left) and local (pointed to the right) for the #7 line. Something happened when I used the < > characters.
Michael
Washington, DC
I think you must have seen the sign before me.
The bottom roll displayed 7 Flushing Local-Express.
The top roll was displaying Special. I turned it back two, to Willets Point, Shea Stadium.
IIRC the middle roll was set to Times Square.
Michael
Leaving Thursday for NY
When buying from vendor (TA) themselves..... we don't get that LOWER treatment.
It's too bad that the R-142 announcement system designers weren't paying attention.
A few months ago, for a GO, SB 5 trains were running down the West Side and through the South Ferry loop, carrying passengers to Bowling Green. Now, 5 trains can be signed as West Side trains, but only if they're going to Flatbush or Utica. So this GO was signed either as a regular 5 to Bowling Green (with manual announcements made all through Manhattan) or as a West Side 5 to Utica or Flatbush (with manual announcements made at Chambers and South Ferry).
Michael
Washington, DC
That surprises most.
Looks like 9th-10th Avenues converted in 1948, 1st-2nd in 1951, and the rest 1954 or later.
Lexington and Third Aves - July 1960
Madison and Fifth Aves - January 1966
Sixth Ave. - around 1957 north of 34th St; 1963 south of 34th St.
Seventh Ave. - 1954 south of 42nd St.; 1958 north of 42nd St.
Broadway - 1956 between 59th and 34th Sts.; around 1963 below 34th St.
Eighth Ave. - 1954 south of 59th St.
Amsterdam (north of 72d St) and Columbus (north of 65th St): 1951.
Hope this helps
And to complete the story, 9th/Columbus and 10th/Amsterdam Aves. (another poster already noted) were the first ones, coverted in 1948 below 72nd St. (10th) and 65th St. (9th); in 1951 extended northward to 110th St. (still unchanged today).
Sorry about the double, the subject needed changing.
I'm guessing roughly 1968.
When I first started visiting NYC from the suburbs in the 60s, I don't think the connection from the FDR to the Major Deegan over the Willis Ave Bridge was available - and probably that was because the bridge was 2-way.
Here's another tidbit:
The first conversion of a street to one-way traffic in NYC was on December 17, 1791, the same day the Bill of Rights was adopted.
(Win some rights, lose others!)
I'd be very interested in seeing more information on the creation of one-way streets in Manhattan. For example, were Manhattan's east-west streets established as one-way by the 1811 plan, or were they converted later? If they were converted, when was this done?
1924: Battery to 57th Street
1927: 57th to 110th Street
In fact, at one time, Columbus Circle was two-way: One could navigate it either clockwise or counter-clockwise.
The next time the ADVOCATE'S Kevin McCallum calls Dan Brucker for a favor or for some unusual information he may find he gets a pretty crappy response.
Other than both being Cab cars, what do they have in common?
Real subway fans won't need a hint.
5264 was R44 100
5754 was R46 500
John
I was only a "stupid kid" about 7 years ago and I don't remember anyone around here throwing eggs at someone else. Just busses (the drivers would often stop to let us bomb the bus).
You know there are assholes out there, you got to protect yourself.
That may be true, but I can't remember anything in the 2 halloweens I'd worked about a C/R being injured.
In 2001 I worked the F and 2002 worked the A and both times I don't remember seeing anyone with eggs even near a train.
Not saying there's not, just that I didn't hear any severe incidents over the radio .
Why is that?
wayne
I can see where an egg could oose under or into a pair of safety glasses, or even knock them off, as is likely enough what happened in this case, but a good face shield isn't going anywhere.
Elias
Robert
Robert
Mark
Larry, RedbirdR33
There is a new virutal world program/chat called oddly enough There.
Is anyone interested in joining?(there.com). Maybe someone here will create a subway to ride on through the online editor.
I am on the waiting list for the free trial. According to Leo Laporte of Tech TV's Screen Savers who I have found to be quite honest he and his daughters loves it.
Thank you,
Flushing7
If someone wants to get to someone, there is always a way of getting to them.
Do you suspect someone is out to get you? Is that why you think the Halloween Parade is more dangerous?
Yes.
If you did miss it, I'll bring you there.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/mermaid2003/mermaid2003.html
Are we talking body paint, or just totally topless/nude?
Thanks for answering though.
Maybe they know something we don't?
Is there anyone else who dislikes the current logo?
Also curious as to why many of the New Haven Metro-North trains have not changed over to to the current logo. They either still have an "M" or the State of Connecticut seal. Others have the current logo.
By the way, I'm new here. My name's Amanda and if I were not going to school for journalism, I'd drive a subway :)
However, it seems like the new logos were fresh applications, like the TA peeled off the old logo and put on the new ones, unlike the Long Island Rail Road, where the new logos went on top of the old on.
You can see the shininess from where the "M" was peeled off.
And you're only as old as you make yourself out to be. I doubt you'll be in the geriatric ward any time soon :)
Michael
Washington, DC
My name's Amanda and if I were not going to school for journalism, I'd drive a subway :)
My other car is a Redbird :)
www.railfanwindow.com
Is there anyone else who dislikes the current logo?
Yeah... I prefer the "ta" logo to the M, but the modern insignia is the worst.
As for the logos, they technically aren't wrong for being there. As far as I know, the riding public could really care less what logo is used. Besides, I know the MTA will be placing Centennial logos, possibly over the old ones, so all of them will be gone. The 'Meatball' is cool, not as much as the original 'TA', but better than the 'Pacman' MTA logo.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Several of her exploits can already be found at darkpassage.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
wayne
For those living in or near Canarsie, the same fencing is still in use behind the properties that used to abut the old ROW (check the backyards of some homes along 95th Street from Flatlands south to Seaview Avenue).
I'd gather that the fencing is either 100 years old or close to it...
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW, my friend just found a 30-day card this week that still has a week left on it.
1 - Might encourage purchasing of more cards and perhaps they will be discarded with money still on them that the TA doesn't have to return.
Getting money and not having to provide any goods or services, other than the cost of the card = 100 % profit.
2 - More space in the dumpsters = less labor to empty them.
3 - Helps keep platforms clean and encourages collecting and swapping of cards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is a signed copy too.
Elias
Video clip (2MB, wmv)... don't expect it to be up for long, I only get 6MB for my Unix account and I need most of that for schoolwork...
Yes I know it's a bit shaky, but you try tracking a train while kneeling on top of a narrow wet concrete wall with a fence down the middle...
Anyway, the crew of the Mount Vernon saw my NY Central shirt, they had the NYC logo on their uniform, so of course we exchanged greetings...
I would have stayed to chat, but a girl from my building had just gotten off a niagra-falls bound train, and yadda yadda yadda I now know where her room is...
Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.
What I'm wondering is - does anyone know when this car was retired, and what happened to it after it left the NY rapid transit system? I know that it was stored on the Gettysburg Railroad until within the last five or ten years, but I don't know what it went through in the four or five decades prior to that. I'd also love to learn any mechanical or dimensional information about the car. Thanks!!
Frank Hicks
I never saw the car but I understand that it has knuckle couplers, and seats from an old schoolbus. The open platform hardware is supposedly mostly or all gone.
I am under the impression that Sloan has owned the car for many years. He could be reached at the K & K in Marienville, and may have more details.
It was fitted with MU plugs for Type M control in 1902.
I believe it was a blind trailer, not a control trailer.
The length should be 46' like most of the Manhattan El cars
from the steam era.
Aha! Thanks for the correction. That puts 782 in a tie for "third oldest" with 824. Interesting... I wonder if they were part of the same order.
Frank Hicks
WHAT DID YOU WANT ON H & M CARS I have mesurements but little on
equipment types Subway Al has a large file on H & M cars.
They probably were not in the same order, but could have been made at the same time. The following is excerpted from a NYERA spec sheet from 1956.
782 was part of an order (729-790) of closed gate trailers in 1880-81. They had 16 windows in a 6-4-6 arrangement, seated 48, and were built by Pullman.
824 was part of an order (791-825) of closed motor cars in 1880-81. They had 16 windows in a 6-4-6 arrangement, seated 48, and were built by Pullman. It is noted that 824 was made into an instruction car in 1902.
I notice on the spec sheet that Gilbert & Bush is credited with building the next number group of cars, 826-919 in 1887.
I hope this helps,
Karl B
I could be wrong but that is how I interpret their roster.
Hope this helps!
There are probably not too many people interested in this old info except for "old guys" like me. I don't have a scanner so I can't post anything.
Wrong! :^)
Pg 1 Introduction to the printed issue.
Pg 2,3,4 Marker Lights 1882-1955
Pg 5 Manhattan Rwy Passenger car Specifications
Pg 6 Manhattan Rwy Locomotive Specifications
Why don't you send me an Email if you want me to copy it!
Let me know if this is what you want to do and I'll go out and buy stamps tomorrow! :-)
Frank Hicks
I don't know if anyone would want to talk about their feelings to me, but if you're interested look for me. I will not be wearing a name tag, but will probably be wearing my faded blue Skee Ball cap. I look like a tall skinny Woody Allen and I'll have a SONY camcorder.
I've never been on an end of a line or car type trip before... I was quite pleased with how much freedom the MTA gave us... The train sat at Willets Point for quite some time... I was intrigued with the single car and its fans... I was very surprised to see a section of carbody that was covered by red tape...
If anyone wants a copy on VHS, just drop me an e-mail with your name and address...
Now you see why in come and go like the wind, sometimes I move too fast for myself. hehe.
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A nice story that links the decline of cities with cars and buses and their revival with rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#The
Like I said, this was three years ago. Has the downtown come back more since I was there last? I hope so. St. Louis's old buildings are some of the most beautiful pre-art-deco skyscrapers ourside of Chicago. A downtown that pretty deserves to be alive.
Any by the way, the St. Louis Metrolink is one of my favorite light rail systems. The airport access is great, and the use of the old freight tunnels with their beautiful hundred-year-old masonry arches make for great subway stations today.
Mark
Mark
AEM7
Why has the airport ride slowed? When I was there in 2001 I stayed at an airport hotel and rode to the convention center every day. It was more like a 40 min ride when I was then.
Mark
(I get to make remarks about St.Louis. I have a grandmother from there, and I'm a Midwesterner. But, honestly, when I was there I spent an awfully long time looking for something to do downtown -- Michalovic's right; they need downtown housing worse than a lot of other cities).
Having spent time in and around the St. Louis Bus Station in the middle of the night in the early 1980s, I found it dangerous enough without living there 24/7.
Mark
More residences in Downtown probably would make the area safer.
Here's a writeup of my trip on my website that tells more about the these things:
Cahokia and Other Lost Cities
Mark
Or if your car isn't broken down but you don't care to pay exhorbitant airport parking rates.
Are you really sure about the length of the ride?
The trip time I previously quoted, 1.5-2hrs, came from a source who either had a bad day on light rail (delay from 80 mins to 90 mins isn't that difficult to incur, esp with baggage), or was quoting round trip times, in which case 1.5 hour is still low if you include the terminal access time.
AEM7
In 1900, it was the nation's 4th largest city, home to a famous World's Fair. By 2000 it was the center of just the 18th largest Metro area, and had lost more than 60 percent of its population since 1950.
Mark
I won't deny you had one bad ride, but when I was there I rode the system every day for about a week, and over the course of my many rides I found it to be a very quick and convenient way to get between the airport and downtown. That sort of single-track snaggle at the airport didn't happen most of the time.
Mark
I think that most unemployed carless weirdos from the East Coast consider 50 or so minutes of their time to be worth less than the $37 differential between the cab fare and the train fare.
I think that most self-respecting Midwesterners (esp. from St Louis) has a car, and isn't afraid to use it.
I think that even though I am not unemployed, I still consider the 50 or so minutes of their time to be worth less than the $37 differential between the cab fare and the train fare.
But most people in St Louis aren't like me. I am a weirdo from the East Coast.
AEM7
It all depends on where you live and where your from. My situation, I'd spend the $3 bucks on a 50-minute ride, least I know i'm moving and it's predictable, but that's me.
Actually, when I was there the light rail station in the airport was easy as dirt to find. It was certainly no harder to find than finding the proper place to catch a cab.
Mark
Actually it is largely true (or rather, nothing is ever 100% true all the time, always). It is not true everywhere.
But since the article reflects the viewpoint of an advocacy, it is appropriately written.
The Auto Club occasionally publishes articles that dismiss public transit altogether as a taxpayer-financed boondoggle. This is clearly nonsense, but that is the Auto Club's point of view.
:)
Yeah, there aren't hard numbers yet on what works and what doesn't, but can't somebody at least raise the tone of the debate a little?
I agree that downtown St. Louis isn't much to speak of except for Laclede's Landing, which has some good restaurants and things, and the Union Station area. I thought Indianapolis was a lot more lively when I was there for a weekend.
Frank Hicks
Hey, at least with a rail line, if development takes place in the corn fields it might be more compact transit-oriented development instead of the acre-chomping sprawl that grows up around highways. Maybe.
Mark
Yes the trams are going to make a return because it used to be economically feasible to drive to work form the suberbs. Not anymore. The cost to drive an average vehicle is about 5 - 6 thousand per year with a new car purchase needed after 5 years. Furthermore, the motorists cost continue rising with spiraling insurance premiums, gas prices, parking fees, tolls, repairs and traffic tickets. These skyrocketing costs combined with declining wages and massive layoffs have made the automobile an extreamly expensive alternative to public transportation.
US Automobile Costs
1993 Figures 1997 Figures
Fixed Yearly Costs
Year 1993 Year 1997
Depreciation $2,883 Depreciation $3,268
Insurance 724 Insurance 809
License/Registration 183 License/Registration 220
Financial Charges 696 Financial Charges 793
Total Fixed Costs* $3,584 Total Fixed Costs* $4,228
Mileage-Based Yearly Costs
Gas and Oil 6.0 Gas and Oil 6.6
Maintenance 2.4 Maintenance 2.8
Tires .9 Tires 1.4
Total Variable Costs 9.3 Total Variable Costs 10.8
Total 1993 Costs 45.14 Total 1997 Costs 53.08
Source: American Automobile Manufactures Association, Inc
Which meshes with my own estimate that it would cost me about $1,000/month for a decent car, which is why I don't own a car.
Even if you drove half as much, it would come to $8,895/year currently.
Now, of course, you CAN have a car for a lot less than that, but I don't doubt that that's a reasonable estimate for the "average" costs.
Of course the big thing that pro-road people like to point out is that the cost of the car is a Private cost, born by individuals, as opposed to public transit where the car is mostly paid for out of tax dollars. That's a more difficult arguement to debate because it comes down to a fundamental understanding/opinion on the role of government.
There's an awful lot of vacant urban prairie that could be used for progressive mixed-use urban development, if only someone would have the foresight to see the dollars up for grabs in sucha proposition.
Mark
Other cities have recently begun to see more residential and commercial development in their downtowns. Even Los Angeles, long the proverbial city-without-a-downtown. St. Louis may be next.
"Of course the big thing that pro-road people like to point out is that the cost of the car is a Private cost, born by individuals, as opposed to public transit where the car is mostly paid for out of tax dollars. That's a more difficult arguement to debate because it comes down to a fundamental understanding/opinion on the role of government."
That's good, since every city in my state that I know of has spent the last 2 years at least talking about raising taxes, sales taxes, and gas taxes, and probably impact fees(nope) to fund road building and upkeep. Two cities alone want almost $9billion in tax money to do this. Miami has at least passed a cent sales-tax to work with roads, buses, and trains, probably the most balanced proposal i've seen.
Individuals pay as much in tax dollars to drive as they do to take a bus, and i haven't seen a highway cost any less than a rail line yet. I've never put out 40% of my monthly pay to ride transit, whereas I do to drive/commute. Maybe if they wanted to even the field, public transit would really be public, therefore free.
Clearly a nonsensical argument, since private drivers are more heavily subsidized that transit riders.
********************************************************************
I know this was posted before, but this article goes into more detail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Bombardiergets
Oh, I see. For that you don't need two tracks.
But two-hour headways? That sucks. Why bother?
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This has been on the table for a while now and Amtrak even temporarily suspended service who a while due to border crossing problems. Frankly I am not sure what is up here. First, when I took the Maple Leaf last year my train arrived spon on time in Toronto and on the way back it lost time on CSX, not the border. Second, I wonder if the administration is purposely delaying rail border crossings and letting ppl in cars and buses breeze through.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Amtrakmay
Simple. Pre-clear like they do in airports and like they do for the Eurostar. Keep the transborder services restricted to secure areas only. Service would be speeded up considerably and everyone gets checked.
It's an interesting comparison, US-Canada cross-border versus Eurostar. On my trip to Paris and the return to London last summer, passport control consisted of a French police officer looking at my passport, a polite "Bonjour" or "Good Morning" and that was it. No other questions, nothing. And no UK officials to meet the train at Waterloo International.
I've always hated Canada-US crossings, both from the point of view of a Canadian and now as a US resident. Always tense. Every trip to Europe or the UK has been an amazingly pleasant affair, more a bored formality than anything else.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
Arti
The poster is right about going from Waterloo to Gare du Nord. There is a French policeman just after security at Waterloo who takes a quick look at the passports but upon arrival at Gare du Nord there are no further passport controls.
On the return, if you are not an EU citizen, you are required to fill out a landing card and you have to exit Waterloo through a downstairs immigration control just as at Heathrow and if you are a non EU citizen you answer a few questions from the immigration official and they still stamp your passport. I have UK stamps in my passport up the gazoo (and may 2 or 3 other stamps say from the Dutch the time I flew from London to Amsterdam) but no French stamps of any kind.
Incidentally, we could and should have the same kind of agreement between the US and Canada. There is no reason for this nonsense other than the fact the current administration feels they can and should trample on people's civil liberties all in the name of the War on Terrorism. It is scary to read some of the comments coming from dangerous sick minds such as Ashcroft's regarding what they would like to do. And it is scarier still that so many Americans are oblivious to it or think they are doing the right thing. All this from a President who we know was not really elected but put in place by a Supreme Court interested in protecting their conservative interests so that when some of them retire, the Supreme Court remains in Conservative hands. And how so many innocents have died because of this man's incompetence. Oh well...
Not any more.
Our country is great for show. Does anybody really think all these controls mean anything other than trying to comfort folks that something is being done? And now they want to have a national data base so that every time you take a plane (and they would expand it to trains) they know who you are and where you are going? And people like Ashcroft saying to US basically who gives a damn about your civil liberties. We know what's best!
Sickening.
It sounds hard to imagine, but back in the Good Old Days people who worked in downtown Detroit often would hop over to Windsor for lunch, the Candaian city having more, better and cheaper places to eat than downtown Detroit.
It goes without saying that this practice has vanished. I'm sure that hasn't been good for business in Windsor.
I do not fit any stereotypical terrorist profile and I was VERY thoroughly questioned entering by car at Sumas, WA, this summer.
Entry to Canada (at Fort Erie going west and at a small town south of Sarnia [ferry crossing] going east) was a breeze.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I heard of someone doing the same thing with the Maple Leaf, stopping over in Albany. He got his suitcase sniffed and searched.
This was a customs dog, you say, not a USDA dog? Contraband includes fruits and vegetables and plants that USDA does not want you to bring in to the US because insects accompany it or because it is an invasive species. Even Grandpa and Grandma unwittingly bring those across the border.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, no, that was Skippy, the Rye and smokes sniffer probably! Canada Customs doesn't give a damn about much, but bringing smokes or booze in...that's where they get all righteous in a sure-fire hurry!
You're allowed one bottle of booze up there, and if you bring in a second one it's at an amazingly-large duty rate, usually much more than the price of the bottle. I'd always assumed US Customs was the same way going back, so when I was in the UK I refrained from buying two bottles of single-malt scotch fearing massive import penalties at JFK. Turns out a second bottle was either allowed outright or the duty would have been under $10! I'll know for next time!!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
DHS is delaying border crossings in all modes. If you think it's bad now, keep in mind that in a few years time they're going to be fingerprinting every foreigner who enters the US.
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Well as long as its not moving in reverse.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Georgia
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Hey hey! Look at the last picture on the trackbed. Yup! A pneumatic switch machine right in the heart of CSX country (aka Heart of Dark Futureness)!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Job
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Example, NS 25A/26A on the NEC.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#TOFC
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You know, If I were in charge I'd cater to NIMBY's too...and build the transit in their FRONT yards. Let's see if they like that better.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Feds
********************************************************************
Hmm, it seems that the brief Rail America/Wisconsin Central foray into forgien freight railroading is comming to an end.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#RailAmerica
Mike, how much do you charge for keeping track of posts? I'm getting some great accounting services from you and you're not even being paid for it. :0)
You know one day the ordinary people on this board are going to stand up to you promiscuous posters.
********************************************************************
Hmmm, maybe they aught to start utilizing Panzerzugs.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Rebels
Huh? I have been using WebTV since 1997, and I've never had that problem.
Once you are at the page whose URL you want, you hit the GO TO button. Then, when that panel pops up, you select SHOW LAST. You then have the page's URL in the window. Then hit CMD-A to select it, and CMD-C to copy it to the clipboard.
Finally, when writing your post here, you paste the URL by using CMD-V, like so:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub033523875nov03,0,1999628.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists
(Clickable link)
Ferdinand Cesarano
First One
Most Equipment
Most People Riding It Per Day
Most Stations
Newest
Your Favorite
OK so just put down the city and the year or number if you can and each day a winner for each catergory will be annouced.
This week's type of transit is...Car Ferries!
So answer all the questions about Car Ferries
Chuck
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now I had a yellow hard hat, a yellow flashlight, and a big bunch of keys at my belt, 'cause like I said, I was a building superintendent...
I would poke my head out of the read conductor's window, because I was a railfan, and that's what railfans do if the conductor isn't using the window.
So the doors close up, but this woman is running toward the train, and looking at me as if I would open up for her. She was probably very pissed that I all I sould do was shrug. I said "Sorry Rossie, I don't have a key"
: ) Elias
R.I.P. Mr. Redbird R33/36WF
Born 9/1/1063 Died 11/3/2003.
P.S. See you there with some pictures to follow in the afternoon.
Sorry, was typing too fast on a limited time computer.
ANOTHER side effect of 6am Tuna..... brrrrrah! :P
Presumably in one direction only. Or are there multiple cracked rails? (No, that only happens in London...)
I'm active in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, and have been since the Museum was founded in 1966.
We observed the anniverary by presenting "The Fair of the Electric Pony, 2003", which was patterned after the pageant presented by the United Railways in 1928 in order to show off the historic cars that had been saved.
That collection eventually became the basis of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's collection.
It's not depressing, it's a fact of life.
You came to Baltimore from somewhere else. You don't know what we had and foolishly threw away.
We are open every Sunday of the year, 12 Noon to 5:00 PM
Cars operate about every 20 minutes duing the day.
Or, more traditionally, leave Penn Station, cross over the tracks, walk down the hill and around the curve in the road to the museum.
Or, more traditionally ...
Well, we all know which route Jersey Mike will take :-) (Don't forget the bungee cord!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Click Here for link to movie
P.S. I am wearing my Flushing Local t-shirt today.
Seriously, great video, almost as touching as that Third Ave El video that was posted here a few months ago.
CLICK HERE FOR MOVIE
I guess I should get some movies on the June 19 MOD trip if I can make it up there.
Redbirds Forever: The Rebirth
(Possibly) Coming to a SubTalk thread near you.
Thanks for reposting it.
Robert
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Mark
thanks
Jeremy
"Queens Plaza N @ Queens Boro Bridge" shows only the N train!
"Queens Blvd @ 36 Street" is down!
"Queens Blvd @ Van Damn" is literally hanging off the el structure but pointing the opposite direction!"
"GCP Interchange from Shea Stadium" is also down!
talk about bad luck... :(
Thank you for your assistance.
Michael
Washington, DC
http://subway.com.ru/tm-openhouse/pages/tm010.htm
Why weren't the 3 trains running Express on West Side to 137/B'way?
WINS reports no 3 train service north of 96th, which implies turning at 96th or maybe 137th (since the latter isn't part of their normal route).
So here are my observations:
1] The SEPTA train [cash] fare is TOO DAMN HIGH to Trenton. I cannot wait till NJT finally opens the SJLRTS. At least the cheaper fare ismore palatable to my wallet [even if they charge full fare, whatever it may be. The bus fare is more reasonable, but two hours on the 409 is way too much]
2] The Secaucus Transfer is HUGE. I would love to see this thing in operation when full train service is instituted later this month.
3] Next time I take the Main/Bergen County line, I will ride the train to Paterson. I rode it to Passaic, and got off literally in the "middle of nowhere" [actually it was in a residential area.] I went on the other side to take the train back, thought I was going to wait another hour, but another passenger tole me that the train back was delayed due to a mechanical problem. The train came 20 minutes late,[that was fine with me], and I wasn't stranded in [fortunately] the station's neighborhood for long.
4]I took the PATH from Hoboken to Christopher St. Greenwich Village is such a nice, funky neighborhood.
5]The 7 looks funny without the Redbirds. I guess it'll take some time getting used to seeing the R62's.
6] I noticed the car arrangement on the 7. A five car linked unit with 6 singles. And on the singles, you get the railfan window [Times Sq bound].
7] On the way home, I had to share a train car with a lot of whiny toddlers and their families. Was there a children's show going on last weekend? All of these yuppies and their progeny was annoying.
8]I hope to be back after Thanksgiving to see the New [Old] WTC station, Airtrain to JFK, and the Secaucus Transfer in operation on a weekday.
Mark De Loatch
mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Basically, it's the LACMTA buses, Red, Green, Blue and Gold rail lines that are NOT operating.
The smaller municipal outfits such as Santa Monica, Long Beach, Gardena, Torrance, Culver City, Commerce, Santa Clarita ARE operating.
There is also a transit system in Palmdale (which is part of LA County though 65-70 miles out of downtown LA) and it still runs.
In the San Gabriel Valley (northeast Los Angeles County), the major player if Foothill Transit -- which IS operating.
Metrolink is not under direct control of LACMTA -- their crews and dispatchers are provided by Amtrak, their shop facilities run by Bombardier. They are running full service.
Once you get out of Los Angeles County, nobody knows a thing about the strike....I drive for the TA in an adjoining county. We are not affected (other than connecting LACMTA routes not running). And 99.99% of our passengers have NO idea what's going on up in LA!!!!
It's basically another planet from down here....30 miles away.
And here I thought New Yorkers were provincial!
Baltimore is just 34 miles from here, but news about what's going in Washington is basically ignored (except for Congress and the White House, and DC'ers don't get much about Baltimore.
It's a human condition. You only know what's going on where you live or nearby. You know other places exist, you just don't bother with elsewhere, even if it's only a few miles away.
REDBIRDS FAREWELL AND THANK YOY FOR ALL THE RIDES.
I just uploaded new pictures in the Eastern Division Els and SEPTA albums and created a new album.
The address is as follows:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/Far-Rockaway-A-Train-Albums
Let me know what you think?
Enjoy
The Canarsie El is pretty much like the els of Chicago, built over or along alleys with brick stationhouses below the el structure.
F: Flushing
M: Manhattan
Anyway, (SOB, starts to cry) here are the last rites of the redbird. HO scale of original R36WF paint job trainset is courtesy of Mark W.
Farewell to the last Redbird.
See you guys on the Noon, 5, 6, 10 and 11 o'clock news. Our Mr. McDonald will have more photos later, including the action at Willets Point, the final stop of the last Redbird.
Confirmed by Sir. Ronald of McDonald, the Redbird is at Willets Point with a Press Conference ongoing. The Redbird will NOT make a return trip, she had her last run. It's heartbreaking but we have to move on. May she swim in peace.
That's O-scale.
I would have thought that in 5 years time, there would be a market for the runs for the March of Dimes!
John
Regards,
Jimmy
Those of us who did the many Red Bird Fan Trips & Field Trips have some very good memories. I'm gald that I had the chance to do the flyover in a Red Bird this year for the first time ! Meanwhile 6688 will be there to refresh our memories !
Well said Good Friend, well said.
Regards,
Jimmy
I seem to recall that there was some equipment substitution for the trips because of breakdowns.
However, that still doesnt mean that after today, there will be one, some, a complete consist of Redbirds available for future fan trips, which was why I asked the question.
Do you know?
John
I was on the first, as it turned out it was a Red Bird trip vs. the planned museum fleet. It was one hell of a Red Bird trip !
"... Redbirds available for future fan trips, which was why I asked the question."
The press release say that they are going to save a few more in addition to the existing museum IRT fleet.
For the rest of this year I hear that there will be two more trips. One we all know about, the second is still in the planning stages, but I don't think it will be Red Birds.
Mark
You need go no further than in the Chambers St. station on the J line, and have a look around. Archaeologists have wondered for decades!
Regards,
Jimmy
Just to clarify things up, what exactly are the "subtle differences" between the R-44 and the R-46? The way I tell them apart is by looking at the red door open lights on the inside; the R-46's are shiny, while the R-44's are ribbed.
That's sort of a ridiculously way to tell the two apart, so, what and for all are the differences?
Thanks,
--Julian
Wayne
David
David
Not at all. Granted, originally, the first test train of R44s were first assigned to the "A". Then eventually the "D", "E", and "F" (not necessarily in that order. After the testing phase and the R44s started rolling in circa 1972, they were in three groups as follows:
100-159 to the "E" & "F"
260-399 to the "D"
400-452 to the SIRT
This arrangement stayed until May 1977 when the R46s started rolling full speed. They, along with the R32s taken from the "CC" displaced the R44s from the "E" & "F" to the "A". The "D" kept its R44s until 1980 due to the "Great R44/R46 Swap of 1980". At that time the "D" received R46s for a few months, then the R44s came back and the R46s went to the "CC". This lasted until 1981 until the swap was over. THAT's when the "A" received ALL R44s from the "D", "E" and "F".
With the exception of the "A" losing 388-399 to the SIRT back around '85 or '86, the rest of the R44s have been on the "A" ever since. This was long before the GOH of the mid to late '80s.
One 4 car set of R-44s received a stainless steel sheathing where the blue band was, but this proved to be costly, so it was not duplicated on any other of the cars.
It wasn't a whole set, it was only two cars 5228 and 5229. I might be wrong, but from what I understand, they just did not paint where the blue band was, they didn't install a stainless steel sheathing
The SIRTOA r-44s were overhauled before NYCT's so they all received the stainless steel but no more.
Nope, the R44s on the "A" were rebuilt first.
:-) Andrew
DIIIING.....door closes, quite a bit on the ones I rode. I guess when they finally retire the R46's, I'm gonna miss the 4,000 variations of the door chime;-)
The Redbirds have plied the subway lines of New York City for about forty years. It was only in the last decade or so that they were officially given the nickname "redbirds." But today, November 3, 2003, it was time to say "bye bye birdie" to the venerable cars.
The trip began at Times Square, when, at approximately 10:30 AM, the train arrived on track 2. The consist was as follows:
F|9564-9565-9309-9582-9583-9584-9585-9617-9616-9587-9586|M
F: Flushing
M: Manhattan
Once the train pulled in, it as "All aboard and stand clear of the closing doors." At each station, the conductor of the train made the announcement, "Ladies and gentlemen, good morning. This is the last run of this type of train, also known as Redbirds." So it went throughout the line.
There were many SubTalkers at this event. Some that I remember are myself, G1Ravage, Christopher Rivera, Arrow III MU, and others. I had on my "9346" number plate and roda among the masses.
Many people didn't know it was the last run, despite the announcements. For example, at 61st Street, one lady asked if the train was a local or an express. After closing up, an employee waved goodbye to the people on the platform.
The train terminated at Willets Point Boulevard, where the train was parked on the northbound local track. There, all the photographers took pictures. I opened up the end bonnet to expose the rollsign controls, and a few changed up the signs. Someone had put it up on <6>, then I set it back to (7).
The press had a large presence at the event. New York 1, CBS, ABC, NBC, the WB, and even Transit Transit News was there to cover the event.
After calling at Willets Point Blvd for about a half an hour, the train closed up and left for the yard, with the end rollsign reading, "(7)|3 Av/138 St." Many went to the bridge over Corona Yard to take a picture of the train as it went into the yard. I was there as the train slowly rolled into Track 8 of the yard. That's when I took my last look at the train and I said in a Casablanca-style manner,
"Fare thee well, my Redbird friends. Until we meet again."
Are you going SCUBA diving one day?
I swim like a Redbird.
http://wcbs.dayport.com/launcher/6508/?tf=chtopsviewer.tpl
.....Rawr....
--jonathan c.
Koi
click here.
Why is there no regular service scheduled connecting the Queens Boulevard line to the 63rd Street line to the Broadway BMT? The tracks are there and it seems to be a good opportunity to increase service.
not to mention that the Broadway line is incredibly crowded currently as it is.
N ~ 7 TPH
Q ~ 8 TPH
Qx ~ 7 TPH
R ~ 8 TPH
W ~ 7 TPH
Local ~ 22 TPH (57 to 42)
Express ~ 22 TPH (34 to Canal)
It's not that crowded...
The QB Line can't handle anything more right now! So such a suggestion isn't possible.
N ~ 7 TPH
Q ~ 8 TPH
Qx ~ 7 TPH
R ~ 8 TPH
W ~ 7 TPH
Local ~ 22 TPH (57 to 42)
Express ~ 22 TPH (34 to Canal)
It's not that crowded...
Numbers is one thing, but the reality is another. What accounts for headways or how often the doors are held or crowding or delays? I've ridden the lines often so I can attest for these problems. The BMT Broadway is dealing with a lot. Maybe when next year comes, but the MTA has other plans. I'm sure if the demand was there, I'd think the MTA would do otherwise.
- There is no more room for express service on Queens Blvd
- Tests with the G train proved that they cannot run 3 routes on the local tracks
True, since there is already E via 53rd st, F via 63rd st, and R via 60 st merges at QB. This would cause a serious traffic problem at Queen Plaza intercept . Not to mention that during evening you also have G and V as well.
"Tests with the G train proved that they cannot run 3 routes on the local tracks."
Then how do you explain QB evening service where G R V running together??? 3 hours is kinda long for three local service running on one track in both direction
If TA have that kind of service in Rush Hours because of 5 min headway
True, since there is already E via 53rd st, F via 63rd st, and R via 60 st merges at QB. This would cause a serious traffic problem at Queen Plaza intercept . Not to mention that during evening you also have G and V as well.
"Tests with the G train proved that they cannot run 3 routes on the local tracks."
Then how do you explain QB evening service where G R V running together??? 3 hours is kinda long for three local service running on one track in both direction
Is this Peter Kalikow's first trip on a Redbird?
Does he really need a bodyguard?
Why didn't he take the train back to Manhattan? - Hmm.
Hard to believe these were once the Beautiful, New, Blue and White World's Fair Cars.
What time will do.
I think these cars prove that simple and straightforward is not a bad thing, even in an age on tremendous, daily technological progress.
Perhaps he thought that there are a few, dangerous buffs out there who weren't happy with the retirement :)
Unfortunately, he'd be 100% correct.
This morning I went to Mineola to check out the AM rush hour.If yu arrive there around 5:45 AM until about 6:45 you will see a lot of trains deadheading to Ronkonkama and Huntington.I saw 8 M-7s in all today including 3 in a row westbound!All of them had flat wheels every singe car.I am somewhat suprised at that.I figured that the M-7s would have some kind of an anti-lock braking system,or if not that at least some kind of system that prevents skidding.
The rails by the Main street crossing,have a lot of gaps in them so you get some great Bang-Bang as the train passes.
The police activity that was quite heavy over the spring and summer at Mineola,has all but stopped,as I have not been questioned in the past couple of months.
Went to the Mineola Post Office to get a money order and stamps,guess how long I had to wait on line?............................a staggering 30 seconds!!
Try that at ANY post office in the 5 boroughs at 8:30 AM.
Good to hear they are not bothering you anymore in Mineola. Maybe they figure all evil doers go into hibernation in the fall and there's no need to harrass railfains in the cold winter months :-)
Mine is without a doubt the screaming whine that they made on the express runs,especially before the cars were modified.Especially right after M&K rebuilt them in the mid 80s.Especially going past the s curve at 59th street on the downtown West Side express.Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Six cars have been saved for use in movies and such. I would guess they could be used for museum runs as well.
G1Ravage heard this from MTA employees speaking informally at the ceremony today. Do not take this to be fact. Here is a photo.
The Nov issue of Railpace has a photo of Seashore's A Train out and about September 1st of this year, but the funny part is the caption:
"The "A" Train comes to Maine ... RECENTLY retofitted ... with trolley poles ..." Gee, I seem to remember having the priviladge of a ride in them in 2000.
To be fair, later in the caption they say "... purchased #800 in 1989 ... donated #1440 ... in 1990 ..."
If this is the only way to get into Railpace I can think of another museum that needs to get a bit more creative with it's photos & text that it submits to them
I went on the trip.
REDBIRDS 1963-2003
NEVER SHALL BE FORGOTTEN
May they rest in piece.
Who's up for some Scuba diving!?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm evil. >=-)
Actually, I was playing around with it when it came time to kick us all out, so I didn't have time to change it back.
Here is a better pic of what used to be.
Can you see any improvement? I can't.
Let's see: I see a homeball and a diverging route, and there is an X-720 there. I do not recall what the X stands for.
GOOD Riddance to the Rustbirds!
Mother of all horrors! I forgot that you are waging a one-man war against the TA's maintenance dept to keep them from reducing their parts inventory.
Actually for the first time ever, and Thank Goodness. Perhaps after today we can stop talking about the Redbirds, and talk about something else.
Maybe we can start whining about saving the R32 "Brightliners." At least those cars are stainless steel and are legendary for reliability. And while the Redbirds were the last of their kind, the "Brightliners" were the first of their kind, unless you count small purchases of test trains. The've got them on the F now, and they scoot along quite well.
THANK YOU !
Bill "Newkirk"
My source is the PA itself, they told me, when I called them about the opening for a report I am doing!
Redbirds #1 - we will miss you
If this is your argument, it's absolutely ridiculous. The MTA was smart in getting rid of the hand cranks.
1. Getting rid of the Hand Cranks prevents people from playing around with the signs
2. Getting rid of the hand cranks also makes the C/Rs job take a bit longer as well and makes many less likely to change all of the signs
I was on a 3 train to the Bronx last year, only the first car(that I saw) had E 238 St-White Plains Road, Bronx while the rest had 148 St-Lenox Terminal, Manhattan(acceptable in the AM, not in the PM), Not to say that the redbirds were always properly signed either of course on the 2/5 lines the redbirds are better equipped than the r142s in terms of terminal signage, but that is another issue right there
An obvious plus.
2. Getting rid of the hand cranks also makes the C/Rs job take a bit longer as well and makes many less likely to change all of the signs
A bit vague. How much longer is 'a bit longer.' Most times I get on a 7 at Main Street, I see an employee shove a key in, crank it and I see the sign change considerably faster than a hand crank.
the redbirds are better equipped than the r142s in terms of terminal signage, but that is another issue right there
Depends how you look at it. No physical changing whatsoever on the new trains since it's all digital. Changing what they read is something different though, and I have no idea how it's done.
Assuming that they don't have to find the right key on a keyring..... of course.
And I heard hand cranks were easier somewhere before, guess it depends on the situation, and at this time I will leave it at that.
---
Depends how you look at it. No physical changing whatsoever on the new trains since it's all digital. Changing what they read is something different though, and I have no idea how it's done
---
Depends what is in the program, like the #2 can say only 2 TO WAKEFIELD-241 and 2 TO FLATBUSH AV never mind that a few #2 trains do run to New Lots(not nearly as much as the #5 goes over there) while the redbirds showed a number of different terminal and route combinations
I think the early #5 r142s couldn't sho Utica and New Lots either, but the newer ones can(at least for Utica, I never saw a #5 say New Lots though)
Lack of hand cranks will not make a difference as far as changing the signs, because C/Rs have been less like to changes signs since the beginning of time. Nobody who is a regular rider of the "7" is going to tell me that they boarded and express, but most if not all the signs say local.
Back in the good days when the "A" and "CC" shared rolling stock (the almighty R10s as well as the R38s pre-GOH) there were plenty of times that I would board an "A" only to have half of the cars signed as "CC" and vice versa. Don't even get me started with the Far Rockaway vs Lefferts Blvd. Back then, not only did the SOBs not change the sign, they didn't even make an announcement. Believe me, back then there were many-a-day you had a bunch of mad commuters arriving at 104th St-Oxford, cursing out the conductor and threatening to blow up the "A" train. LOL.
I am and I can say directly the opposite. Most of my experiences on a 7 express as far as I can tell with the R62A's has the diamond '7' bullet set and ready.
I always enjoy the general gist of your posts. CC, just one honest question...have you taken pictures of your own? When I purchase a digicam of my own, I want to get around here on the transit scene.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Made those cars look like every other car, no unique livery anymore. Every color livery after the original didn't highlight the panoramic windows.
Or do you mean that the Redbirds on the 7 were in uniquely bad condition? That I'll certainly grant you.
And yes, it was.
NO WAY!!!
The 7 Line lost its uniqueness over 20 years ago when they painted over the blue and white cars, first to all white, then to all red, and the 7 Line became a line of ugly looking IRT cars just like all the other IRT lines.This is when the Flushing Line was unique:
It will go like this:
R38->R42->R40->R44
I believe the R160 option (which is to replace the MK-GOHed R32s) should instead be focused to on replacing the R44 instead. The R44 is in worst shape than the R32 and should go first.
Koi
Thunderball II: The Lost Redbird.
Or, if you run afoul of the mob, cement shoes.
I am not really into poetry but I thought of something fitting over the weekend that I posted the eulogy. As for the Sea Beach line bashing, Fred knows in his heart that it's done for good clean fun, and is now and integral part of Subtalk, just as he bashes my Brighton Line. It's not senseless, it's what makes this board fun.
But for now, we have a truce.
Regards,
Jimmy
For those of you who have not been up to Cooperstown, the HOF is a brick building right in the heart of the main 5 block downtown area. I don't think that they would want to devote as much display space to the car as would be needed. Just stand on the ground next to a Redbird, either at Shoreline or in a rail yard, and you'll realize how big these cars truly are.
Other than the atrium lobby, I don't recall any ceiling being more than the standard 8-10 feet tall. Therefore there would have to be MAJOR building renovations to accomodate a 12 foot high car plus overhead space for a drop ceiling and a sprinkler system.
On one side of the building is Cooper Park, a public park, that is very hilly. Some of the park was given to the HOF for their expansion 10 years ago. I can't imagine the locals allowing anymore of their parkland to be taken for a subway car, plus the excavation for leveling some of the ground and building a shed to protect the car in winter.
Check out http://www.nynewsday.com for a rather nice article with slide show and audio clip of a reporter who visited the submerged redbirds.
Then with your spirits lifted, go to http://newsday.com and be prepared for a rather negative article. And don't get on my case, I didn't speak with anyone from the media.
Be glad you have election day off! I think my school district(Port Washington USFD(which is a load of crap, cuz there are unions)) is the only one with school open. ARGH!
FOX 5 showed the train rolling into the yard.... and not much more.
Regards,
Jimmy
U go, brah.
Care 2 give more details so we can better know which 1 u were??
I think all Red Birds are good ones, or should I say WERE :-(
-Stef
These are just my predictions.
Chuck :-)
I think it is similar for every generation. I think that the older cars were better and every new car is a reduction in my subway pleasure.
If I had control, BMT, IRT and IND would all be using original cars with a few additions such as R10.
For shame. You didn't use the correct Pigism: ERYTHRORNITHOPHILES!
Ladies and Gentlemen, Redbirds Have Left the Building.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=596675
I swear, he's been acting incredibly narrow to people like Douce Man, RonInBayside, CC, and now me just because I don't show as much interest in the 'birds. Oh well, HIS loss.
Now as for the R40 slants POSSIBLY being retired by the R160s...I am a bit indifferent. I used to like the Slants for their speed 'til I realized other cars were faster. I've stood at the front window of a Slant through 60 St. It did not feel fast. On the other hand, sitting on R46s or R68s or R68As, the ride through the tube felt much faster.
But when the R32s retire (hopefully that won't be for another 10-15 years ;) ) that will generate an even bigger media frenzy, in my opinion.
And yes, I killfiled a few of our very own "wackos from Waco," and now reading SubTalk is a much more enjoyable experience! (I didn't have to break out my .22 last night to relieve tension, as I did the past few nights)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm calling it right now. Railfans will NOT like that the R-160's are replacing the slants, 38's, etc. Some railfans might like that they are replacing the R-44's (if that turns out to be the case). So there's my prediction. Of course I could be wrong...if the R-160's come with narrow cabs and railfan windows....hahahahah. But that seems HIGHLY unlikely given the current information avialable about the R-160 program. And for those of you that will try to tell me stuff I already know: Yes, I know the R-160 is supposed to be almost identical to the R-143, blah blah blah...
You know that you are very unique in your tastes for NYC subway cars, and I whole heartedly recognize that and commend you for it.
R160 primary order will retire:
-10 R32's/R32A's (GE overhauls)
-R38's
-R40's
-110 R42's (NYCTA overhauls)
R160 option order #1 (if taken) will retire:
-Remaining R32's/R32A's (M-K overhauls)
R160 option order #2 (if taken) will retire:
-R40M's
-Remaining R42's (M-K overhauls)--possible 40 cars for service increases.
Special thanks to webmaster David Pirmann for having this info in the website.
This bothers me. Goodbye Redbirds.
Mark
Koi
Great photos though. :)
Standing, L to R: G1Ravage, chuchubob, American Pig, Arrow III MU's dad, Arrow III MU, Sparky, skfny
Behind window: Mark S. Feinman
Kneeling: Sir Ronald of McDonald
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
So what else is new?
In this one, I was in the front of the following train.
Your Dad got a good pic, too. If either Pigs or I had a gram of sociability, we would have met on Monday.
I'd be happy to play SubTalk "meeter and greeter," as long as everyone wears a name tag (so I don't confuse someone for someone else). I of course knew who PIGS was despite his lack of a name tag, but other SubTalkers' names, who I know I've met before, escaped my mind.
I will say this: if you (anyone) wear a name-tag on Nov 23 for the first PATH train to the WTC, I am willing to help you meet any other present subtalker who is also wearing a name-tag. I will break the ice. I am totally for subtalkers meeting in person. It does wonders to help improve the civility of the message board.
The other pictures are cool, too!
Ptttttttttt to that!
: )
Mark
No you weren't.
Why didn't you say hi?
You don't know what I look like?!? There are tons of photos of me on my website, and I was wearing a name-tag. And assuming you've gone through my album of photos from yesterday, you now know what I look like, correct?
It's funny, I thought it would be kinda like this.
Yes, that was the interior of the car housing the anti-railfan window. It became a little more crowded as the trip progressed. You will see that in the video...when I make it available...which could be a while...
An informal count of the passengers waiting at Times Square was taken by a professional counter, and the estimate (at ~10:25am) stands at 220+ people.
Via M/J to Essex. Christie Street cut to Broadway Lafayette. Via F to Van Wyck, then E to Parsons/Archer. Leave Parsons/Archer, loop Jamaica Yard, via F line to W.4 and terminate. Lay-up 207th Yard.
til next time
We left from Times Square on Track C1 (station tk 2) and made all stops to Willets Point arriving there on track C3. THe train sat in the station while speeches were made on the normally unused northbound side platform. During this time regular northbound service used the center track.
The consist was (N) 9664-5, 9309, 9582-3, 9584-5, 9617-6, 9587-6 (S).
Chris Rivera and I took pictures of each other standing in front of R-33 9309. The last R-33 in service.
Now that the Redbirds are gone I can retire and write my memoirs.
Best Wishes, Larry, REDBIRD R-33
Adam
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS. NOW IT IS TIME TO SAY GOOD-BYE!!
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS. NOW IT IS TIME TO SAY GOOD-BYE!!
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
For the record, R-33s #9309 is significant also because it was the last NYC Transit subway car of any type ever to operate in regular scheduled passenger service to still have the old axiflow fans. So now, the entire NYC Transit subway rolling stock fleet is now all air-conditioned equipped and stainless steel.
-William A. Padron
["111 Street-Corona/Queens"]
-William A. Padron
["Main St-Flushing"]
New York 1
CBS 2
NBC 4
ABC 7
1] The SEPTA train [cash] fare is TOO DAMN HIGH to Trenton. I cannot wait till NJT finally opens the SJLRTS. At least the cheaper fare ismore palatable to my wallet [even if they charge full fare, whatever it may be. The bus fare is more reasonable, but two hours on the 409 is way too much]
2] The Secaucus Transfer is HUGE. I would love to see this thing in operation when full train service is instituted later this month.
3] Next time I take the Main/Bergen County line, I will ride the train to Paterson. I rode it to Passaic, and got off literally in the "middle of nowhere" [actually it was in a residential area.] I went on the other side to take the train back, thought I was going to wait another hour, but another passenger tole me that the train back was delayed due to a mechanical problem. The train came 20 minutes late,[that was fine with me], and I wasn't stranded in [fortunately] the station's neighborhood for long.
4]I took the PATH from Hoboken to Christopher St. Greenwich Village is such a nice, funky neighborhood.
5]The 7 looks funny without the Redbirds. I guess it'll take some time getting used to seeing the R62's.
6] I noticed the car arrangement on the 7. A five car linked unit with 6 singles. And on the singles, you get the railfan window [Times Sq bound].
7] On the way home, I had to share a train car with a lot of whiny toddlers and their families. Was there a children's show going on last weekend? All of these yuppies and their progeny was annoying.
8]I hope to be back after Thanksgiving to see the New [Old] WTC station, Airtrain to JFK, and the Secaucus Transfer in operation on a weekday.
Mark De Loatch
mdlbigcat@comcast.net
My Redbird last ride recap is up there, a ton of photos, and other new content.
Enjoy!
WTG! 8-)
First One
Most Equipment
Most People Riding It Per Day
Most Stations
Newest
Your Favorite
And for those interested in a very historical World Trade Center / PATH item, see eBay number 2200138712, and for those interested in the Rockaway Peninsula see eBay item 2200140741.
The City of New York stopped the BMT from running the PCCs after the first day. Until its abandonment in 1949 8000 series double end Peter Witts served this route.
Mark
AND...IF in the unlikely event that NY gets the 2012 Olympics (too bad, Vancouver got 2010) NYCT should make it a priority to order new cars for the 7. My opinion-who whats to ride a 1986 R62A at the 2012 Olympics?
In fact, what number would come next after the R-142 in the IRT?
Wait until it is announced before worrying about what equipment is going to be used.
IMHO - we won't get the 2012 Olympics.
The Redbird obviously took center stage today, but get used to these, they may be here for the next 20 or so years. Barring an appearance by the 142/142a.
I disagree. Name one railfan-friendly feature on the R-142(A). Actually, I can only think of one, and that is the vertical grab bars on either side of the cab door. IF there was a decent railfan window there, then those grab bars would have been amazing. So just try and tell me one useful railfan-friendly feature of the new tech cars. If you can't think of any, then why will railfans be sad when they are retired? They certainly won't be the last human operated cars. All they are, are the first of the new-tech cars. Woo-weeeeee. Big whoop. Unless they remove all windows from the new cars, the R-142(A)'s retirement will not cause railfan hearts to be broken.
Now if I can have your attention, would everyone please direct their attention at the letter C? :)
Now if I can have your attention, would everyone please direct their attention at the letter C? :)
Are you referring to the R38's on the C line, by any chance?
New York City, New York - October 29, 2003
The world's first beat poetry musical Subway Train arrives in New York
City on November 19, 2003.
Subway Train, a theatrical invention about risk, hope, and life on the
train, will be presented by The Liilaa Company for a one-night-only staged
reading at the Bowery Poetry Club.
Subway Train is a peek into the life and minds of three young poets told
through poetry, music, acting, and imagination. The script is comprised
of the writers' journal entries that capture private observations and
feelings experienced while riding the train. Griff Foxely from
getunderground.com says, "Subway Train puts a stethoscope to the pulse of
the bustling masses and uncovers emotional landscapes not readily
available in the everyday."
With an original concept by Joshua Kobak, this exciting hip new musical
was written by The Liilaa Company with book and lyrics by Joshua Kobak,
Katy Pfaffl, and Mickey Fisher, and music by Sean Dixon, Danton Boller,
Pfaffl, Kobak, and Fisher.
The cast of three poets are portrayed by Joshua Kobak, Katy Pfaffl, and
Mickey Fisher, with Yassmin Alers as the train conductor. The band is
comprised of Sean Dixon on drums, Danton Boller on upright bass, and Matt
Caplan on guitar.
Joshua Kobak has appeared in RENT on tour and on Broadway. His
acoustirock band Swim gigs out regularly and has recorded their first CD
"Above And Beneath."
Katy Pfaffl recently released "As She Stands" the acoustic soul-folk
follow-up to her 2001 self-titled debut album.
Mickey Fisher of Leo's Pride Entertainment wrote, directed, and appears in
the forthcoming independent feature film "The King Of Iron Town."
Yassmin Alers, dance-captain of the original Broadway company of RENT, has
also been seen on Broadway in Paul Simon's The Capeman, The Rocky Horror
Show, and the European premiere of The Who's Tommy.
Sean Dixon, of neo-soul band The Chesterfields, also provides drums and
percussion for the Katy Pfaffl Band and Swim. Bassist Danton Boller has
recorded and toured worldwide with Jazz Mandolin Project, as well as Swim.
Matt Caplan is a singer-songwriter who can currently be seen on Broadway
in RENT as the filmmaker Mark Cohen.
The Liilaa Company was founded by Kobak, Pfaffl, and Fisher while
attending the University of Cincinnati's College-Conservatory of Music.
The Liilaa Company produced their first show "The Colors Of Love" at the
Ensemble Theatre of Cincinnati and the 1997 New York Fringe Festival,
Subway Train has been in development over the past five years and was
previously presented as a work-in-progress piece in 1998 at The Duplex
Cabaret, and at Show World Center in 1999 and earlier this year.
Don't miss this train. There will be two performances at 8:00pm and
10:30pm on November 19 at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (between
Bleecker and Houston, across from CBGB's). Take the F or V train to 2nd
Avenue, or the 6 train to Bleecker Street.
www.bowerypoetry.com
Tickets are $20 at the door. Bar and coffee available, no drink minimum.
All ages.
For more information visit www.joshuakobak.com
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Suicide is more like it.
CG
But wear comfortable shoes. :)
The Van Courtlandt Madman
I didn't like the Qs replacing the BUs (big time!). I didn't look forward to the R39s replacing the Qs on Myrtle and the Lo-Vs and WFs on the Third in the Bronx.
So now we have no Myrt or 3rd at all. That's better?
many times I have offered the olive branch to make peace with you, but you cannot be reasoned with.
Huh?!??!! What?!?!? All I have ever asked of you is that you try to moderate your posting. How did you respond? Well you just set the record for number of posts with in a calendar month with 1145 posts, most of thise pointless ramblings about Redbirds. You know that is only 405 posts from the theoretical limit!!! BTW I gave you the chance to make peace by just comming forward and admit that you were lying about that whole hospitalization thing, but you decided to stick with your lie.
As well as humility. I am FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect, but ANYONE here at SubTalk who treats me decently, gets treated the same way.
I don't care what you think of me or what you say aobut me. Those things do not effect me. What does effect me is your continued watering down of the content here on Subtalk with your nonsensical fluff posts.
Unlike you, I do not backstab.
If you were under the impression that I was backstabbing you you are sorely misinformed. I am FRONTstabbing you and I make no bones about it nor feel any shame in doing so. I will fight you on the message boards and in the discussion forums. I will fight you in the chat rooms and over e-mail. I will fight you on AIM and in the Newsgroups and I will never, ever surrender.
You do realize Mike that plenty of people post that kind of stuff? Personally, I think CC is the least of your worries.
No you get a life. Normally I have respect for the operating types, but how did you ever managed to get along in the crewbase with that kinda attitude?
AEM7
It is not your place, or anyone else's to ask any poster to watch the number of posts. So you can have no legitimate expectations in that regard.
Now, if this were a zero-sum game, where someone else's posts reduce the number of posts you can have, then there would be grounds for negotiations.
Actually, it kind of is a zero sum game. Most people have a kind of subtalk-reading algorithm that is somewhat similar to this:
Maximize Fun
Subject to (Time Available for Fun)
Allocate
(Time Spent Reading my posts on Subtalk)
(Time Spent Reading other posts on Subtalk)
(Time Spent doing other things)
If the total number of posts on Subtalk goes up, then it is likely that (Time Spent Reading my posts on Subtalk) will decrease and that (Time Spent Reading other posts on Subtalk) will increase, if (Time Spent doing other things) is constant. But if the contribution to Fun decreases because (Time Spent Reading other posts on Subtalk) contributes less than (Time Spent Reading my posts on Subtalk), then (Time Spent doing other things) might increase as a result of allegedly brainless posts.
If the subtalk poster has the following algorithm:
Maximize (Number of my posts that people read)
Subject to (Time Available to post on Subtalk)
Allocate
(Time Spent per post)
(Number of posts)
Then it is natural that Jersey Mike would want to have other people decrease their number of allegedly "brainless" posts. The problem is that not everybody's "brainlessness" functions are the same. This makes Subtalk an interesting board.
AEM7
Maximize Fun
Subject to (Time Available for Fun)
Apply Known Subtalker Quality Filter or Killfile
Allocate (culling function)
(Time Spent Reading my posts on Subtalk)
(Time Spent Reading other posts on Subtalk)
(Time Spent doing other things)
Now, the impact of brainless posts (whatever definition you would like) is reduced and additional resource is available to read the Fun or Worthwhile Posts. This reduces the significance of the maximal (quantity) posting strategy.
How do I say goodbye to what we had?
The good times that made us laugh
Outweigh the bad.
I thought we'd get to see forever
But forever's gone away
It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday.
I don't know where this road
Is going to lead.
All I konw is where we've been
And what we've been through.
If we get to see tomorrow
I hope it's worth all the wait
It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday.
And I'll take with me the memories
To be my sunshine after the rain
It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday.
I know I have made my remarks "Redbirds Sucks", or "Scrap em Now" but deep down inside I will miss the ones they call Redbirds. When I was little, I remembered riding one of them to my grandmothers house, how I loved to feel the bumpy ride coming into Union Square, to make the connection. Now it all feels as if it never happened. Like, somehow I let the memories fade away until the last moment. Maybe its because I do love the redbirds, for one thing, I never got to say I'll miss you. Or maybe I never got the chance to take enough pictures of them. For whichever reasons I love you guys (and not in the obssesive way as R36 968 whatever his/her name is), but no matter what I say from here on out, god speed and I'll miss you.
If the image doesnt come out see here
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Arti
Say what?
"The train cars, named for their brick-red exteriors, have been running from Times Square to the Flushing-Main Street stop since they began delivering commuters in 1959."
Umm, not quite. As we know, the R-26s (which were the oldest cars that came to be known as "Redbirds") did indeed start delivery in 1959 (same year I was delivered!) :) But of course the R-33 WF/R-36 went into service a few years later (see my other post on clueless reporters) :)
BTW when the new Sunnyside station opens, can all the traind (Penn and GCT bount) stop there?
Arti
Arti
You are correct.
CG
But many more use Penn. You may think it's a dungeon, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone.
Please note that other routes to the East Side include LI Bus to Jamaica Center or 179 St, for trains headed to the 53/Lex or 63/Lex Stations, or LI Bus to Main St/Flushing for the 7 train, or even LIRR to Atlantic Av, with transfers to Manhattan-bound IRT Lex trains.
Wouldn't Hunters Point be a difficult option as very few trains serve the station, otherwise it would be a clear winner for anyone going to the East Side.
_But many more use Penn. You may think it's a dungeon, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. _
I'm really talking time wise. At rush hours it could easily take 10 - 15 minutest just to get out of the station + the usual delays when the train is entering the station. Add another 30 minutes to get to the East Side...
_Please note that other routes to the East Side include LI Bus_
Bus as established here, has insignificant passanger capacity compared to trains.
_even LIRR to Atlantic Av, with transfers to Manhattan-bound IRT Lex trains._
To get to East Midtown, it makes a little sense, unless you happen to be in the train going there, IMHO.
Arti
Add another 30 minutes to get to the East Side...
It doesn't take thirty minutes to ride an E train from 34th Street to 5th or Lexington.
Close to, as your destination is on the surface and you have to wait for the train + merge with 6th Av service.
Arti
Anecdotally speaking, (and I don't know if the TPH stats would support it or not) this became less of an issue once the V train replace the F train as the 6th Ave / 53rd St / Queens service.
CG
Elias
You answered your own question. There are specific arrivals and departures from there (diesel trains) every day. They carry pretty much the same people.
The Ftriday night train is the TGIF party train described in the NY Times.
Actually that's why I didn't mention HP in my original post.
Arti
NOPE!
avid
95% of the time I went via Penn Station and then the E to 53/5. The crowds exiting Penn really aren't much of an issue at all. The LIRR platforms have so many exit stairways that getting off the platform isn't nearly the hassle that it used to be over on the NJT side. (In fact, it generally takes longer to get off the platform at Hunterspoint Ave than it does at Penn.
The biggest hassle with the commute from Penn to the East Side is that the main access to Queens-bound E train platform at Penn is at the extreme rear of the train. Since passengers headed for 5th Ave and Lexington Ave (the avenues, not the stations) crowd the rear of the platform, passengers who want Madison and Third Avenues -- or who just want to spread out can't get to the middle or front of the train. The overwhelming majority of E trains leaving Penn headed towards Queens are 1) heavily crowded in the first 2-3 cars; 2) moderate crowding in the next 4-5 cars; 3) crush loaded in the rear 3 cars.
About 5% of the time I would go to Woodside, where I'd catch a 7-express one stop to QBP and then a N/W 2 stops to 60th/5th. This could be anywhere from 5-10 minutes faster than my normal commute if the connections were perfect to 30 minutes slower in connections went badly. Most times it was about 5-10 minutes slower.
The biggest drawback to this was that I didn't have any direct service from my station to Woodside during the rush (as you noted, only a small fraction of rush hour trains actually stop there). So not only did I need to make the subway connections, but I also had to change at Jamaica. The more connections one has to make at rush hour -- the less likely you are to get there on time!!
I rarely used Hunters Point Avenue. Again, I would have had to change at Jamaica for this station. But the delay in exiting the station at HPA, the elements-exposed 1/2 block walk to the 7 train, and the need to often let a 7 train or two pass before I could get on made HPA a railfanning experience -- not a commuting experience. (Plus in my case, I still had a 13 block walk up 5th Avenue from the 7.
avid
One other problem is that it was 100% underground. If I got stuck, I couldn't make a call to let people know I was running late. Using Woodside/7/N, I was above ground much of the time. On the E in Manhattan, you could just get off at the next station and hike (and I often did).
I did use the E to Jamaica in the evenings occasionally. If I arrived at 53/5 and there was a delay in WTC-bound service, I found that I could sometimes catch a train to Jamaica which would get me to the same LIRR train at Jamaica that I was going to catch at Penn.
CG
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101965,00.html
NYC is resistant to the railtrail concept, mostly because neighborhood residents believe such trails will bring in 'those' people.
You know...walkers.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nice as it is, I wonder if rail-trails don't pose a problem in some cases, in that they remove right-of-way from potential future service restoration. The branch of the Cape Cod line that goes to Hyannis is still viable, but due to the rail-trail, any hope of restoring rail service to the lower (outer) Cape in gone.
www.forgotten-ny.com
On the contrary. The ROW has been maintained. Any resumption would be much more difficult had the ROW been sold off or encroached by private development.
An example closer to home is the Upper Harlem Line. The ROW is intact because it is being converted into a rail trail. The recent extension from Dover Plains to Wassaic was possible because the ROW was preserved for rail trail use.
When the Baltimore & Annapolis Railroad ceased operating south of Dorsey Road (Cromwell on the Light Rail today) in the 1980's, Anne Arundel County bought the abandoned ROW to preserve it for future rail transit use. It was converted to a hiking/biking trail.
Fast forward to the 90's. The MTA, looking to extend the Light Rail south of Cromwell to Glen Burnie using the B&A ROW.
No NIMBYS, but the hiking/biking ecofreaks screamed bloody murder.
The LRV's still stop at Cromwell. The tail track raises to cross Dorsey Road - someday, maybe.
Rails to Trails Trails to Trains!!
I've not heard that explanation before. I don't think it's true. If it isn't true, nobody has "forgotten" it.
http://www.americantrails.org/resources/railtrails/RailSalida.html
Self am viewing my Redbird video collection shot in 2000..
I was working the daytime shift today and kept a WATCHFUL eye
on the clock.... I glanced at the time at 10:15, 10:30, 11:15,
12:00 and ironically took lunch at 1:06 (farewell time).
I have TOO MANY Redbird memories to post on 1 thought...
But I do take comfort, in remembering that my LAST RIDE
on the Redbirds was among the company of three good brahs
("What's another hour among friends?").
Thanks Kool-D for pushing me to take in that 1 last round.
Crank up that song, Chris...
Regards,
Jimmy
I did make a memorial for the last set using good 'ol Microsoft Paint.
Regards,
Jimmy
It was even said that the 2 ran local all the way during 9/11 because Flatbush was the only terminal shown and the 2 couldn't end at 14th Street because it is not on the program(I would be open to any other explanation) It is also rumored that the 1 may go back to New Lots next year, if that happens, the inflexible r142s may dictate the 2 running pattern again
it would be interesting to see what happens if any IRT routes were to ever switch terminals...but that remains to be seen
That's my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks about that
Where's the PROFF??
I'll bet it's only TEMPORARY.....while South Ferry gets reconstructed.
That's my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks about that Rmadillo.
:{
In other news, let's get going on the second ave subway already!
(and let's continue to put railfan windows into the newest trains, shall we? NOT take them out or blur 'em.)
85,000 more riders than expected. And to think, there were actually people who thought zero people would ride the 50 million dollar line. I guess individuals have more sense than highway lobbyist.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11032003.shtml#Streetcars
I'm writing this on behalf of some people who definitely won't want to ride SIR.
That's about the size of it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
A good web page for Staten Island attractions is http://www.statenislandarts.org/cultural/cultural.html
Michael
Washington, DC
1. Ride the the Staten Island Rail road - The railroad leave you within walking distance from the beach. It's not great but better than nothing. Better yet, take a bicycle with you and Staten Island becomes and ADVENTURE! Staten Island is not like the Bronx, Queens or Brooklyn so be warned. To be honest.. It's nicer. (Well, not necessarly for cyclists)
2. They have a nice park called Clove Lakes. Really cool. Just minutes away by rail with bicycle of course.
3. Visit the Staten Island mall - I like this mall alot and it reminds me of Woodbridge. There's even a parking space for bicycles.
4. Ride the rail road all the way to Tottenville and come back to St. George by bicycle. I did this last Sunday and it was a BLAST! (The only bad thing was the rail fan window was covered!) Believe it or not, my GPS showed the distance between Tottenville and St. George to be about 15 miles! This should be a cake walk.
With 'those' gone, the line can now appear even greater than before!
It's unfortunate you can't take the fact that not everyone finds interest in the Redbirds. And in your narrowness, if you want to killfile someone for it, go ahead.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Some of us are still quite testy after yesterday's retirement...
And no, none for the museum. Some for the killfile, maybe.
Even tho I was NOT at the retirement ceremony, seeing the photos
and reading the posts from the trip all just made me HELLA TESTY
today (coming from 1 whom humor and spontaneity be the norm)..
Remember my "Redbird = relative in Intensive Care" analogy??
Well yesterday sure felt like that.
OH MAN was I ever glad I shot those videos in 2000.... all PURE redbirds
on the 2/5/6/7 lines...
And thanks to Brah Salaam for HIS contribution to the videopile.
1NostalgicNights9
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Shhhhhh!! You're gonna start a riot!!
If anything, his decision was narrow to me anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
As reported by the AP. Article on the NY Times site (free subscription required).
Last cars built in the United States?
Mark
And, that oddballs have a future too.
Peace,
ANDEE
And to remind all of us that no matter what that future may be, no matter how successful we become, and regardless of how well we fit into normal society, anyone who has the slightest association with the hobby is, and always will be, an oddball. Instead of nametags on the next trip, we should all just wear a big scarlet "F" for Foamer.
Scratch scarlet; make it Redbird red ;).
What about the R38, R40, R42, and R44?
Weren't they built by St Louis Car Company AFTER the redbirds?
wayne
Wayne
Gee, I remember some one else said that to a SubTalker recently ?
I think all the single unit R33's are going for work service.
Regards,
Jimmy
IMO, the car movements should have happened like this from the start (based on the initial plan of sending new cars to the 3 rather than the 4):
Since the 7's cars were in worst shape, start by sending R-142's (or R-142A's; I'm not distinguishing between them for the time being) to the 3, allowing R-62A's to go to the 7 right from the start. Second-worst was the 5 fleet, so send the other order first to the 5 and bump off the R-26/28/29's. Then move to the 6, knocking off its birds and sending its R-62A's to the 4 (with extras to the 1/9 and 7, to increase service), to replace its marginal R-33's. Only at the end would the R-142's come to the 2, and this past Monday we would have taken a nice long ride on R-33ML's from Brooklyn to the Bronx.
The end result would have been the same (again, based on the initial plan), but the worst cars would have been removed from service first and the best cars last.
"But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The waters off NJ and DE are too cold for coral. The furthest north I have seen coral in the water is off Cape Hatteras in North Carolina, where the Gulf Stream brings warm water from the south.
John
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 8:00 AM
Ronkonkoma Branch Customers
Due to a New York & Atlantic Railroad freight derailment, LIRR train service is temporarily suspended east of Farmingdale.
Two freight cars have derailed and are blocking the main track. As a result, train service will be suspended for the morning rush hour.
For alternate train service, Ronkonkoma Branch customers are advised to make their way to the Port Jefferson Branch or the Montauk Branch.
Some limited bus service is being provided between Ronkonkoma and Farmingdale.
There are currently 10 to 15 minute delays systemwide.
In the front of the store near their coffee bar, they have several tables of discount books. I picked up a copy of NFT guidebook to New York City for $2.98. This is the 2003 edition which normally sells for $14.95.
It's an incredible small sized book of close to 300 pages, jammed packed with small sized street maps on almost every page with listings of almost everything. Parking garages, atms, post offices, schools, 24 hour copy shops, liquor stores, restaurants, hardware stores....
It also has a folding MTA map June 2002. On the back of the map is a rough listing of building numbers on all the major north south avenues. (This is not the traditional "drop the last 2 digits, add or subtract a code number and then multiply by 3.14)
I'm really impressed with all the info it packs.
If you like to find mistakes in subway or bus information, it is so loaded with info that I'm sure you can spend hours looking through it.
Thanks again!
I was in Strand Bookstore yesterday on Broadway & E. 12th. They have a load of them by the cash register for $2.95.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
The museum's website is www.bera.org.
Check the site for hours of operations and directions on getting up there. If you don't drive or can't be driven up there, you take Metro North to New Haven. There is a bus (I think route D) to a strip mall called "Trolley Square" and then walk about 5 blocks.
The redbird usually only comes out on railfan weekend days and other special weekend occasions. For reasons connected with the power consumption rates the car will not be brought out on weekdays.
Hope to see you and other Sub-talkers up there !
Then this morning, I bought the paper and I was able to make out my Skee Ball cap.
While I was looking the videotape, I came across the shot I took of the woman photographer on the right and the railfan photographer on the right.
And that's the rest of the picture
The wiggles in my picture seem to be the result of bad brand new tape I was using in the camcorder.
I was also surprised to find a shot of this railfan on the trip
An Old Friend
Do you have a miniDV camcorder? I borrowed my friend's camcorder for the trip and tonight I have to figure out how to get the video on to my hard drive.
You have to remove the two instances of "NOSPAM" from my email address.
"The train cars, named for their brick-red exteriors, have been running from Times Square to the Flushing-Main Street stop since they began delivering commuters in 1959."
"Derrick Richards, 44, a conductor on the Lexington Avenue line, said he remembered the first time he rode the Redbird was to come out to the World's Fair in 1964."
Does anybody in this world remember the aqua colored "World's Fair" paint scheme, or am I the only one?
The other person in that picture is me.
Koi
I went back to the tape and froze this frame when you took a shot at the unarmed photographer.
Shooting an Unarmed Newspaper Photographer
I'm beginning to like the distorted way the cars came out. Maybe I should shoot some tape of the R142's with this same tape.
A couple of frames later, I got a shot of her firing on us.
The Smoking Gun
I'm going to try to contact the photographer from Newsday, Audrey C. Tiernan, and give her a link to this thread. Maybe she'll get a laugh out of it. If being around on so many railfans on Monday didn't crack her up, I'm sure this thread will.
What you need to do is have the heads and guideposts cleaned by a professional with very high percentage isopropyl alcohol (99%, not the 92% or lower "backrub" junk sold in drug stores) which will remove the small amount of adhesive that has accumulated ... on a DRY day (or in the dry electric heat in a redbird which lowers the humidity) this won't be so much of a problem, but when the adhesive gets "wet" the stiction increased until it gets so severe you can hear the tape squealing inside or the tape ejects because the head can't turn at speed any longer. Yours shows evidence of being RIGHT on that ratty edge.
Here's someone else's explanation of the phenomenon - it JUST needs to be cleaned, doesn't need PARTS.
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/av/2002/11/msg00009.html
I'd like to see some GOOD video too! I'm sorry that the museum's arnine collection is so PETER MAX ... they're ALL oddballs, NOT "correct" like Branford's 1689 is except for ONE of them (forget which but that one was an oddball somehow too). I have yet to inspect 825 at Kingston, though STILL dying to personally, so that one may be unblemished by the "Frankentrain project" as well.
SERIOUSLY though, one day, you, me, "bingbong" and Unca Lou gotta fire up 1689 and ease her away from the pier as a select group just to see you grok the point of my comments whilst in yer home. I think you'd REALLY get a kick out of actually MOVING one. :)
When I went to work for the TA, the TRAINS were cool ... once I *did* it, I came to realize that the "system" was ALL ABOUT the PEOPLE! Go for it, I say! Trains are cool and all, but they're just electron suckers ... cold, uncaring, and downright MEAN ... not so for the PEOPLE though - ALWAYS an interesting sidewalk act.
That's the reason why I've derided so many "subway journalists," especially of late ... they JUST DON'T GET IT ... Unca Heypaul GETS it ... you can LOVE trains without going "black helicopter" over it, and again, too many of our "collective" are just *SO* far over the edge. Then there's reality. Heh.
But yeah, for the short time I worked for the TA, I *revelled* in what was presented IN MY FACE at each platform that I had to climb up between cars, and stick my goves in the underside to let in and out of my train. Like I said, subway cars are just toasters on wheels these days, but the HUMANITY that you serve as a member of UMD/TWU 100 was ALWAYS interesting. ;)
Over the years, I've noticed that many railfans on trips with the old equipment get off on the expression on people's faces when the train passes through or stops at a station. It's almost like the railfans are hip to some secret that the people waiting in the stations aren't in on.
I think the look of surprise and wonder on these people's faces is a healthy sign and a sign that they are aware of something different passing by.
On a more negative note, perhaps they are frightened by the looks on the faces of the railfans in the cars. I wonder what we look like to them.
I know I must have seemed quite strange on the Redbird trip walking around with a video camera and holding the storm door open and recording.
On the Redbird trip there was a man sitting by the storm door where I was taping. He seemed very interested to hear that this was the last trip. He was on a cell phone and told the person he was talking to to listen to the conductor making the annoucement that this was the last run of the Redbirds. He asked me a number of questions and was very friendly.
One of my great regrets is not having the camcorder the last night that they ran the PCC cars in Newark. Most of the people on the car I was on, were ordinary people who were on the trip for sentimental reasons. They talked with the operator, who had a religious blessing up on the front of the car.
There was no one expounding on the differences of the R36 and R 33 and R110. The car just had a warm festive feeling to it.
Finally, to go back into my negative mode, if I weren't riding on the trip on Sunday, I think I would chase after the train and take video of the look of some of the railfans inside looking out.
Hey, don't look at me. I'm the only one on the train that smiles and waves excessively to the people on the platform. The rest of the railfans onboard even think I'm weird. But you said it perfectly:
"many railfans on trips with the old equipment get off on the expression on people's faces when the train passes through or stops at a station. It's almost like the railfans are hip to some secret that the people waiting in the stations aren't in on."
That describes me to a t. And there are many SubTalkers that can vouch for it.
Brian... I'm curious... When you're smiling and waving to the people on the platform, is it because you are feeling happy and sharing your joy with people on the platform? Or are you hoping that they will be even more bewildered at the sight of someone waving at them which will result in them looking even more perplexed?
The latter. You seem to understand the concept perfectly. It is so much fun. You really have to watch me do it on Sunday. Maybe you can even join in on the fun. Newkirk Plaza David waves with me a lot. This time I will be waving and filming at the same time.
Is this Peter Kalikow's first trip on a Redbird?
Does he really need a bodyguard?
Why didn't he take the train back to Manhattan? - Hmm.
Hard to believe these were once the Beautiful, New, Blue and White World's Fair Cars.
What time will do.
I think these cars prove that simple and straightforward is not a bad thing, even in an age of tremendous, daily technological progress.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/133655p-119101c.html
The Discovery Times show "NY Underground" contained several minutes of MTA footage of fish swimming through the subway cars. If you would like, I can let you "borrow" my copy of the show, which I have on a CD. Just email me and let me know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ronkonkoma Branch Customers
Due to a New York & Atlantic Railroad freight derailment, LIRR train service is temporarily suspended east of Farmingdale.
Two freight cars have derailed and are blocking the main track. As a result, train service will be suspended for the morning rush hour.
For alternate train service, Ronkonkoma Branch customers are advised to make their way to the Port Jefferson Branch or the Montauk Branch.
Some limited bus service is being provided between Ronkonkoma and Farmingdale
Oh Great! Then a derailment can take out two tracks instead of one.
Besides, that line should be double-tracked anyway.
wayne
Between Farmingdale and Wyandanch.
What's the Montauk Branch? I don't see it on any of the boards? What do you mean, the next column?? Those aren't trains, only the ones right next to the times are trains!
I've heard of the Port Jefferson branch, and that is how I know those aren't trains. My Ronkonkoma train has never gone to Port Jefferson, but sometimes that is next to it on the board!
A good argument for more parking spaces at Ronkonkoma, the lot will have to grow large enough to be an easy walk from Smithtown or Patchogue before anyone will realize those lines exist.
I think the south side lot already IS that large!
A container manufacturer and a propane company in Wyandanch; a couple of manufacturers/warehouses in Deer Park; Prima Asphalt in Holtsville; Triangle Building Products and Gershow Recycling in Medford; and probably some farther east.
My old stomping grounds! I remember around 1969 or so when several trains terminated in Smithtown and the LIRR would use the passing siding to reverse the engine (C420s). This was before the days of using an engine on each end of the train.
I wonder if it was necessary to send these trains to a watery death? i dunno guys any feedback??
I wonder if it was necessary to send these trains to a watery death? i dunno guys any feedback??
Those cars were falling apart and were getting more and more expensive to care for (as you get futher away from when the equipment was built it gets more difficult to get parts). On the Pelham line Redbirds you could see the cracks, the holes, the duct tape used to patch some of those cracks and holes.
Face it - You have to move as technology moves otherwise you get left behind.
BTW - the redbirds were not the better than anything else that the TA had in the fleet. That distinction (IMHO) belongs to the LoVs.
[Yes, I know - some will argue the R-1/9s were the best or the BMT Standards were the best].
Even if you don't want to move with technology you still have to deal with entropy. All good cars will wear out if you give them enough time. Even the Amish have to replace their buggies, even if only with new identical buggies.
Mark
Now granted, this story is second hand, so there are probably lots of mistakes in it. I welcome any corrections that anyone might be able to offer.
Mark
The redbirds were not very well designed cars, even when new. They were expensive; they cost 28% more per square foot than the contemporary Almond Joys their closest competitor. They were not equipped with air conditioning. Their achilles heel was the use of LAHT steel which is why they cannot be repaired.
I would have sympathy for their designers had these shortcomings not been known, when they were designed.
Poorest - Bowery
Now of course I'll never expect to see a farewell to the R32's, they'll last forever.
Regards,
Jimmy
I guess apparently buses don't get the same treatment.
Perhaps they should. The M1s WERE the LIRR for three decades. Not only that, in a sense they and the R44-46 WERE the MTA.
Most of the gradiose promises made when the MTA was organized were never realized. It has had a hell of a fight just to overcome the errors of previous decades, along with a few of its own. The one thing it did do in its first 15 years was upgrade the LIRR and buy the M1s and R44-46s, which were similar in style to reflect a regional entity and idea.
In any event, there has to be a reason to celebrate the retirement of a car class, either to say "thanks" or "good riddance." The "Redbirds" were associated in the popular mind with the demographic transformation of Queens from Archie Bunkerland to the most diverse county in the country, and with the Subway's recovery from the dark days of the 1970s and early 1980s. The R30s were the last car class without air conditioning. The R40s will be the first car class WITH airconditioning, as well as Lindsey's follow -- form over substance. The R32s were the first stainless steel cars purchased en-masse, as well as the most reliable. The R44s-46s represent the aspirations of the MTA era. The R142-143s will represent the first new-tech cars.
I guess the R62 and R68s are the only ones that will be unceremonious dumped.
It is a little bit early to speculate on the R-32, but I think the MTA WILL recognize the amazing Brightliners for what they are, especially if they end up being the oldest NYC subways cars ever to be in continuous service (except for GOH, of course).
Look, I don't care what the new cars look like or what technology they contain. All I want is a non-adulterated RAILFAN WINDOW with protective film as applied to R-142 windows. Other than that, I'm good. Without that, the NYC Subway will lose the interest of those railfans that RIDE the trains, but will not lose the interest of those railfans who prefer to PHOTOGRAPH the trains.
Look at it this way: if all new automobiles were built in such a way that only the driver of the vehicle had a forward view out the front of the car, would car passengers like that?
READ the previous posts. We are discussing AS YET UNBUILT subway cars...
Mark
I'm still waiting to see who the Railfan Party nominates for its presidential ticket next year.
Mark
The IRT Lineage
TypeFromToComposites2000215930003342Hi-Vs33504024Lo-Vs40255702R1257035802R1458035952R15 (low)59535999(6000s used by BMT Triplexes when R15s were ordered)R15 (high)62006252R1663006499R1765006899
(7000s used by BMT Multi-section Units when R21s were ordered)R2170507299R2273007749R2677507859R2878607950(8000 to 8019 used by BMT Bluebird and R11 cars)R2780208249R3082508569R2985708805R3388069345
R3693469769
The R38's (and R32 #3348) are now the only revenue service cars with car numbers shown in the Independent System Car Number font. When they retire, that'll be it for them (at least in revenue service).
I think it'd be cool if the R160's came in with numbers in that font on the # plates, just so it can last until the latter half of this century, maybe even close to the start of the 22nd!
Those are stick on numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Regards,
Jimmy
I disagree with your first statement. There certainly is not "no need for a redbird." It would be in the best interests of historical preservation to save at least one example of every significant object in this world that can be saved in a practical manner. The MTA can choose if it thinks another redbird fits the description. I, and it seems you too, feel that a ML redbird should be saved.
Regards,
Jimmy
For what purpose?!?
The M-1's are being dismantled and cut up at the Bombardier plant in Mexico. The Redbirds would follow the same fate.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be HUMILIATING for people to live in a rusty old train car. Better to build actual housing.
Also remember that the car is already in bad condition to be used for anything and that it would have to be gutted for any of these uses, which would require expensive asbestos abatement.
I'd like to know why the MTA is so preoccupied with feeding redbirds to the fishes when they could be better used to benefit humanity instead.
THEY ARE BENEFITTING HUMANITY! A healthy environment benefits humans. In addition, the placement of Redbirds encourages fish to live in the area which improves fishermen's catch. That improves the local economy (so does the scuba diving), provides cheap food for hungry families and the revenue the locals make is spent in the rest of the economy.
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000408
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
LEXMAN, YOU AND YOUR SO-CALLED FRIENDS GOT ME FIRED FROM RTO! THIS IS TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I GOT MY JOB BACK,AND I WON'T REST UNTIL YOU ARE NO LONGER EMPLOYED BY THE TA! ANYONE THAT COMES TO YOUR DEFENSE WILL ALSO GET FIRED, TOO! I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR TITLE IS--YOU'RE MY ENEMY!!! I KNOW YOU'RE RUN ON THE #5 LINE, AND I'LL MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER EMPLOYED BY THE TA BY THE END OF THE YEAR!!! (four angry faces here) AS FAR AS THE TWU IS CONCERNED, I DON'T CARE IF ROGER TOUSSANT HIMSELF TRIES TO DEFEND YOU! HE SHOULD BE DEPORTED BACK TO TRINIDAD! I'M NOT AFRAID OF TWU, OR ANY OTHER UNION FOR THAT MATTER!!! I WILL NEVER REST UNTIL THE TA IS 100% NON-UNION AND NON-CIVIL SERVICE! (four more angry faces) (dated October 30, 2003)
According to SwatExile, same thread:
This thread is being locked, as it contains a personal attack and is otherwise unsuitable for this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear when I say that the only reason I'm not deleting this outright is that it may be called into evidence in a defamation lawsuit. (Recent events at my school are teaching me the value of legal good faith.) Otherwise, it would be straight to the bit bucket. I will not tolerate this kind of incivility in my forum, or for that matter, out of it.
Stand clear of the closing thread, please. (dated October 31, 2003)
According to Lexman, on www.straphangers.com, Rider Diaries : New York City Transit : 4/5/6 Lexington Avenue Line : Ive been THREATENED! :
That heatless goon whom I got dismissed for brining up false accusations against me IS BACK, with a vengeance! He's threatened not only my job, but my future. He's suing me for defamation of character!
HELP!!! (sad face) (dated October 30, 2003)
Allan commented on the same thread:
I have read Union Buster's comments in the closed thread and while I am not a lawyer, I do recommend that you report that to the Police Department as he has made a direct threat to you.
A person like that could be prone to violence.
(dated October 31, 2003)
And Psycoperl added his two cents, on same thread:
You know if he tries to assault you, he has a bigger legal problem (smiling) Check out the new ads and signs about it. The Legislature in Albany has done one smart thing: They made assaulting a conductor or motorman or station agent the same as assaulting a cop (smiling) (dated November 1, 2003)
Thus prompting AlexL to reply thusly, on same thread:
That's only assaulting one of us IN UNIFORM while PERFORMING OUR DUTIES.
(dated November 1, 2003)
Also of note is this comment, from the same thread as before, from Gotham Bus Co.:
Actually, you didn't get him fired. He got himself fired by consciously choosing to harass you and others, and this time he's harassing you through the court system. Looks like history might repeat itself. (dated November 1, 2003)
Any of you care to comment? Looks like a Strategic Lawsuit against Public Participation (SLAPP suit) to me. Yuck. This is serious stuff, folks. Why is complaining so troublesome that someone wants to beat up someone about it? Why not get a job somewhere else, Union Buster? Like Wal-Mart or something. I heard theyre also anti-union!
The best thing WE can do right now is to stop talking about it, because none here have any say or influence in what is or is not going to be saved. All we can do is make it harder for them, because if push comes to shove at the top, they'll A-L-L go into the water !
.....or the R12/14's
.....etc.
(finally! ANYTHING to respond to!)
See:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr1104,0,5581095.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
CG
What is a signal bridge?
They can also be called signal gantries.
A signal bridge is any signal structure that completely bridges the tracks. Don't confuse it with a Cantilever mast/gantry that L's out over the tracks.
Track 12 - N/9309-9582-9583-9584-9585-9587-9586, coupled to 9313, two R-62A's, 9316 and another R-62A unit/S.
Track 16 - N/9318 coupled to 9307/S. Note that #9318 had his interior lights on, has no scratched windows at all, and missing each a destination front roll sign box on each bulkhead end.
Obviously, R-36wf units 9564-9565 and 9616-9617 were removed and no where to be seen...and so swiftly at that.
For your added information, the conductor on that final run from yesterday seen was doing platform duty today in the 10:00am hour (11/04/2003) at 111th Street-Corona, insuring that all passengers were off #7 trains discharged there before there were sent to lay up in the yard. By the way, for some reason, he was wearing a quasi-gold medal on his blazer lapel.
-William A. Padron
[The R-33s/36wf's Era: September 26, 1963 - November 3, 2003.]
Do you think they would change it?
The next step is to remove the rollsign anyway.
BTW, you saw 9582-9583, not 9588-9589.
I believe 9564-5 and 9616-7 are the 4 R36 being scrapped.
see http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=596693
However, I was not on the farewell trip yesterday, because I was working that day. Let us just say that I was there on the train "in spirit", while I was aware that everyone I personally knew who would be there for that historic moment in transit history.
-William A. Padron
[An R-10 fan living in Flushing line territory]
That's Peter Dougherty. If one goes to the contributor's page on this site and click on Tracks Of The NYC Subway, you'll get information on his book....
Also, his maps are available online.
A word of advice, don't type in caps. It's considered to be shouting.
-Stef
WHAT THE JOB INVOLVES: Transit Property Protection Agents perform routine work in the surveillance of subway stations, train yards and adjacent grounds on New York City Transit Authority property in order to provide protection against terrorist acts, trespass, damage and loss; make written reports; read, interpret, and follow special
written instructions and directives; drive a motor vehicle; and perform related work.
Some of the physical activities performed by Transit Property Protection Agents and environmental conditions experienced are: standing for lengthy periods of time, including standing at posts and patrolling facilities; staying continuously alert; walking up and down stairs and over extended distances that cover the perimeter of Transit properties; hearing alarms from doors, cars, etc.; confronting unauthorized persons on New York City Transit Authority properties; walking along subway tracks where a live third rail is present; and working outside in all kinds of weather.
(This is a brief description of what you might do in this position and does not include all the duties of this position.)
THE SALARY: The current minimum salary is $13.28 per hour for a 40-hour week with increments to a current maximum of $18.97 after four years. These rates are subject to change. In addition, incumbents receive night and weekend differentials, paid holidays, vacations and sick leave, a comprehensive health plan and a pension plan.
HOW TO APPLY: If you believe that you meet the requirements in the "How to Qualify" section, refer to the "Required Form" section below for the form that you must fill out. Return the completed form and the application fee to DCAS Applications Section, 1 Centre Street, 14th floor, New York, NY 10007 by mail only. Applications
will not be accepted in person.
HOW TO QUALIFY:
Education Requirement: At the time of appointment, you must have a four-year high school diploma or its educational equivalent.
License Requirements:
1. At the time of appointment, you must have a motor vehicle driver license valid in the State of New York with no restrictions or encumbrances. Serious moving violations, license suspension or an accident record, may disqualify. This license must be maintained for the duration of employment.
2. At the time of appointment, all candidates must show valid proof of prior filing for a New York State Guard License. By the end of the probationary period, probationers must possess a New York State Guard
License. Failure to secure this license will result in the termination of their services. This license must be maintained for the duration of employment.
Medical Requirement: Medical guidelines have been established for the position of Transit Property Protection Agent. Candidates will be examined to determine whether they can perform the essential functions of the position of Transit Property Protection Agent. Where appropriate, a reasonable accommodation will be provided for a
person with a disability to enable him or her to take the examination, and/or to perform the essential functions of the job.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/11/04/last.red.subway.ap/index.html
I hate it when these guys get things like this wrong. Makes you think about the rest of the news, huh?
>>>" I hate it when these guys get things like this wrong."<<<
yeah, especially when Channel 4 interviewed a "SubTalker" at Times
Square that morning awating the arrival of the final RedBird trainset.
Webmaster Dave, even caught the interview and forwarded a photo
to the Railfan being interviewed. Well, it was expected that the
footage would be edited. >>GG<<
8-\ ~ Sparky
SalaamAllah 460 west montana street Pasadena
Ca 91103
Dude, LEARN HOW TO TYPE. And while you're at it.................LEARN ENGLISH!
You know how cantankerus arnines could be with sticky doors ... those things were HORRIBLE. And for someone who plays in a set of those with water faucets in the cab and slanty-panels, you of all people should be slapping me with a mackerel for speaking the truth. :)
I always liked the old pics like those you just posted too.
Here you go:
http://www.frugalphotographer.com/cat04.htm
*bookmarked*
I was *just* browsing through all the pics of that trip this afternoon, and I saw that pic with you in the railfan window, and I thought, "Hey, there's a kid in the window."
Didn't know it was you!
Thanks.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
The Van Courtlandt Madman
THEY'RE GETTING RID OF THE DIAMOND 6 ?
OH HELL NO.
Personally, I prefer to sit on a train than to stand on a platform.
Afterward, don't come back and complain about headway.
The stations between Whitlock Ave. and 125 street I could do without stopping at.
I rode the 6 last week.
I rode the 1 last week.
6 took hella longer to get into manhattan (or atleast an express transfer point)
Do the J and Z still run skip/stop? I took a few J's Z's at rush hour for the last revision and all of them ran local north of Broadway Junction.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
But at least that skip-stop makes sense, unlike the 1/9. I can't imagine why it would be eliminated.
That's the easy part. The hard part is to convince Charlie Pellett to stop telling everyone on the 2 that they can transfer to the 1 and 9 trains.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/nymbry.html
If only it could have been absorbed by the BRT/BMT at some time and we could have had a cross-Brooklyn line today!
Amazing how long it lasted right next to the 4 track Brighton line - sometimes hend-to-head competition makes no sense at all, but who can argue with big egos??
I'd like to find out more about the signal modernization project on the Concourse line. How much (if any) work has been done on this project to date? Is there any evidence of new signal heads on that line yet or is everything still in a preliminary stage?
Speaking of signals, I know the new signals were cut in between Freeman and Jackson on the 2/5 a couple of weeks ago. Are there any new IRT to B-division style signal projects ongoing at this time, or is everything cut over that will be cut over for a while? I believe the Dyre line is still old style as is the E180th Interlocking, and I haven't seen anything indicating they will be converted for the time being. Can anybody shed light on this?
Next, is anything left to be done on the Canarsie line's re-signaling and track work or is it complete now? I probably won't get there for a few days yet.
Finally, does anybody know of a projected cut-over date to the new configuration on the Nassau Street line between Canal Street and Essex? This was showing good progress earlier this year, but I haven't heard anything in months. Any word folks??
Thanks to one and all!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
Haven't seen anything, either. It looks like they're still using those "3-headed monsters" up there, too, and the home signal southbound at 149/G.C. is still X 14L, but the signal just south of the station on the northbound side appears to be getting replaced.
Also bear in mind that there are new switches installed, north and south of Jackson Av. The old switch south of Prospect which takes you from Track M to Track 2 is in the process of being removed. Immediately north of Jackson is the new switch installation which takes you from Track 2 to Track M. So far that I can tell, the signals are 258 ball (on M) and 260 Ball (on 2).
South of Jackson there is a new switch which takes you from Track M to Track 3. A new signal has been established for wrongrail movements on Track 3 from the Northbound Platform at Jackson Av. Sorry don't know those signals. Finally, Track M now ends in a wye configuration upon merging with Tracks 2 and 3.
Before I forget, there are newly installed punchboxes at 3rd Av 149th St, N/B and S/B plats for routings. When all is said and done, Tracks 2 and 3 will be reverse signalled for wrongrail moves between Jackson and 149th St-GC.
Hope this helps,
Stef
I included the new switches in the latest revision but I hadn't heard about the one being removed. Is that a permanent removal or a renewal, do you know? I will take another ride all the way up there, but without my railfan window, it will be a trickier view, alas.
Do you know if the northbound homeball north of the portal has been cut over to the new numbers yet? It was X-12R last time I rode through there a few months back.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
The indication would be the placement of new signals in the vicinity of Prospect Av. An automatic will replace the homeball on Track 2 at Prospect, while an automatic will replace the homeball for N/B movements on Tack M. There is no signal at present to replace the homeball for wrongrail moves on Track 2 to Prospect Middle. At the new switch north of Jackson, an automatic has been installed to prohibit wrongrail moves from the S/B plat at Jackson (On 2 Track). A train would have to go south of Jackson to turn around.
There is however, a newly placed interlocking signal in front of the partially removed switch for S/B moves on Track M, but that would be merely to control the block in the area.
In reference to your question, the signals have not receieved new numbers as of yet.
-Stef
Thanks for the heads-up on this. I did actually have some information on this one, but I sincerely appreciate the update. I will definitely ride through there in the next week or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
The master tower is being built on the Mezz. of the Bedford park Blvd. station. The real signal work has not started yet but I heard that it will be 54 months until its done.
54 MONTHS!!?? Yikes! I had no idea it was that massive an undertaking. I'd have figured for a few miles of three-track line it wouldn't have been more than a year or two. So I guess we're looking mid-2008!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING SOON!
Congrats on the "real" job at the MTA....have fun on the system and now you can have access to many of those unique areas the general pulic cant get to.
DO ME A FAVOR PLEASE !!!!
Will you PLEASEeeeee ( again, + again...heh heh) clear up your YAHOO Email Account as its bouncing messages (from our NYCTMG Group and other groups yo may be in) as your Yahoo email account mailbox is FULL.
Your membership with us is under "suspension"until your account can accept emails (and messages)
I sent you a number of Reactivation Notice form-notices and they are boucing
This is the only quick way I can "reach you" at your other home here at Subtalk !!!
Best Regards! --Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster
New York City Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
Gotta get that boy some handle time at Branford on a redbird as compensation ...
Chuck Greene
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Operation of selected RT equipment at Branford can be arranged as part of the "Guest Operator" program. I don't know for sure what the 2004 schedule will be, but if it follows the 2003 pattern it will be on the third Saturday and the immediately following Sunday of each month from May through October, as these are the days when the RT equipment is brought out to play. (RT schedule subject to change, of course, but I presume that the "guest operator" schedule would change with it in that case.) An operator who is properly qualified on the equipment would guide you as you operated the car either from the station at Avenue L to Short Beach or from Short Beach back to Avenue L (normally we have two guest operators on each run, one operating each direction). The cost in 2003 was $20 plus membership (for those who aren't already members); again, I don't know if that will change for 2004, but I have my doubts. Similar arrangements can be made for streetcar operation. In addition, we train new volunteer streetcar operators every March, and again special arrangements can usually be made to train newbies who for whatever reason cannot attend the regular training sessions.
Any further questions email me, Sparky, Lou, or our training director Jeff Hakner and we'll try to answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The whole thing was staged.
If you want PROFF, you can search the archives for my comments on Redbirds.
Printed it on glossy paper, it's now framed and hanging on my office wall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I feel that.
It could be that some are being scrapped in order to rebuild others.
But (the maybe) comes in: these are highlevel cars, does Mexico have any high level platforms?
And (another maybe) these all have non-standard couplers, and control systems, presumably these would all have to be pulled out.
I suspect they will all go for scrap.
It's just cheaper to do it down there.
Elias
I wouldn't mind having a personal train consisting of two M1s...of course it would be hard to run them out here in KC. I'd need a locomotive.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
The R-142's might be governed. They used to be governed, I think to 40. I don't know if that's changed.
I would have loved to have been on your train for that.
I wish they'd do that for the in-service runs! But alas, 'tis not so :-(
There are three of those neat 4500-series Brooklyn Rapid Transit 1906 semiconvertibles still around - 4547 at Seashore, 4573 at Branford and 4550 at the Middletown & Hummelstown near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. That last one is the one I'm wondering about.
It's more-or-less complete (and it's pretty good body-wise too), but I have no idea what its history is. It suddenly appeared on the radar as a wreck at Station Square in Pittsburgh in about 1981 (my father took photos of it, and the Lake Shore Electric interurban car that kept it company, there before both were cosmetically restored), but I don't know where it was prior to that. Does anyone know when 4550 was taken out of service, and where it went after leaving B&QT?
Frank Hicks
The story I have is that it was sold to the people who built Tomorrowland, then a short line in MA, then someplace else in PA, then Station Square, and presently in Middletown & Hummelstown. The folks who apparently moved it out of 9th Ave carhouse weren't worried about its future operation so anything underbody was torched off!!
There is some controversy over whether the trucks under 4550 now are actually BRT trucks or not.
NEW SUBJECT:
Wouldn't this car look great OPERATING in Brooklyn?? I know I DO!!
The story I have is that it was sold to the people who built Tomorrowland, then a short line in MA, then someplace else in PA, then Station Square, and presently in Middletown & Hummelstown. The folks who apparently moved it out of 9th Ave carhouse weren't worried about its future operation so anything underbody was torched off!!
There is some controversy over whether the trucks under 4550 now are actually BRT trucks or not.
NEW SUBJECT:
Wouldn't this car look great OPERATING in Brooklyn?? I know I THINK SO!!
I concur, lets bring 4550 back to Brooklyn.
8-) ~ Sparky
The C does not go up to Fordham Road anymore. The C ceased to exist in 96 or 97, replaced by the B. That was seven years ago!
As for the 2 and <5>, I'm assuming they mean the E. 180th St. stop, which is technically 10 blocks away, because the Metro-North stop is Fordham Road and 190th. And it's a freakin' long walk, unlike the D train.
And at the Atlantic Ave. station in Brooklyn, they have a sign that says "Transfer: Yellow Q, Orange Q, 2, 2, 3, 5." Now you can pick which color Q you want to take, or one of two different 2 trains!
Any other mistakes you've noticed in your daily travelings?
I've never noticed any odor emanating from MTA signage?
"Limeted rush hour service to 179 St."
Since when was "Limited" spelled as "Limeted?" They have thankfully changed that, though one stray sign remains.
DeKalb Avenue used to have a sign for the Yellow Q and Orange Q as well. Plus the former entrance to the station (which is being reconstructed as I speak) had signs pointing to two M trains.
Newkirk Plaza David knows of many more inaccurate signs throughout the system. :)
Here's one from DeKalb Avenue/Flatbush Avenue that you forgot to mention. It was found over one of the middle stairways to the platform for southbound trains. The picture was taken or around 20 October 2003.
Hmm... perhaps that will be my new thing. Going into the city in search of mistakes on signs. God knows there are plenty of them. I know this one isn't as spectacular as the rest, but there is a sign "to canal Street" instead of "to Canal Street" at Alantic Ave. too.
I love searching for mistakes. It's the editor in me.
My home station, 169 St, does have remnants of what looks like a map from 1994. Its pasted onto an ad panel, and much of it has disintegrated.
"As for the 2 and <5>, I'm assuming they mean the E. 180th St. stop, which is technically 10 blocks away, because the Metro-North stop is Fordham Road and 190th. And it's a freakin' long walk, unlike the D train. "
It is a long walk, but I for one would prefer to provide some information at the station about subway service in the area. Perhaps a neighborhood map, as you see in subway stations, would be useful.
Speaking of Neighborhood Maps. With the sole exception of a few stations in Midtown Manhattan, ALL and I mean ALL of the "Neighborhood Map"s are from the year 1985. They show the JFK Express, the C to Bedford Park, the B to 168th Street, the 5 to 241st Street, the R to Astoria, the N to Queens Blvd, the V, W, and blue S don't exist, the D, M, and yellow Q run on the Brighton Line, the B still runs on the West End, the H still exists in the Rockaways, as does the K in Manhattan, oh GOD...
There's a sign at DeKalb that shows (M)(N)(R)(W) (D)(Q), a sign at 86th Street/CPW that shows a < B >.
Actually, the (Q) is in orange, too.
And I also remember a sign at Prospect Park that said the Q was the express and the Q was the local.
IMO, it's not a big deal. The point of the maps is to give people leaving the station an idea of its surroundings at street level. The subway lines are only on the map for orientation purposes. They should be updated, but I don't consider it a very high priority.
But DUH!!, the entrances on the new maps that were fully closed since 1985 are STILL on the 2002-2003 versions, as well as some of the newer entrances that are NOT on the maps.
Examples:
(#1) Neightborhood map for the Upper West Side does not have the newer entrance at the S/W corner of 87th St/Broadway for the #1/9 trains.
(#2) Neightborhood Map for downtown Brooklyn has the South Portland Avenue entrance on ther IND Crosstown line still open, even though it's been over 10 years since the exits were converted to an employee facility.
If that sign claims that the 2 and <5> are six blocks east of the Fordham Metro-North station, they're WAY off. If you go east on Fordham Road, you'll hit the 2 and <5> at Pelham Parkway and White Plains Road, a good mile and a half away. The East 180th Street station is even further away.
- The new IRT car's route maps are also poorly designed. You would think they would could design such signs so that they could be accurate based on time of day, or at least reflect major service changes (W trains thru the rathole on weekends for example). They aren't. The signs themselves are line-dedicated (my 2 train this morning had a 5 train route map left off)
- The part time service signage on maps and stations is confusing. The 4 train's (for example)internal maps show their night service to New Lots, but few external train stations signs do (though downtown at Astor there is a 4 sticker on the sign) There should be a color variation for part time service stops. Perhaps a white circle with a green 4 (for example) at the local stations the 4 serves for practically a quarter of its day.
- There is still a "K" train sign at 42nd street on the downtown side.
Mark
Chuck Greene
Mark
Mark
: )
Mark
Mark
Mark
MTA Long Island Rail Road
Service Alert
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 7:45 PM
The LIRR is currently operating on or close to schedule out of Penn Station.
Ronkonkoma Branch Customers
Eastbound train service to Ronkonkoma has been restored. We expect 10 to 15 minute delays through the area. Westbound customers will take buses at their stations to Hicksville where they will transfer to trains to complete their trips.
It appeared that Amtrak was getting trains through, as there were three Amfleet trains and one Acela express going by on the middle tracks southbound while we were waiting.
As of now (21:16), there is still an advisory on the NJ Transit web site.
John
CG
That depends. If I recall correctly, North Tube is shared by LIRR and Amtrak; South Tube is LIRR only (or it could be I have them reversed).
It is possible the LIRR trains were stalled in front of the LIRR only tunnel. So long as Amtrak's trains used platforms with access to the other tube, Amtrak service could continue.
The northern tubes are predominantly LIRR, but not exclusively. The southern tubes are predominantly NJT/Amtrak, but not exclusively.
CG
Of all the places a R142 can go, Is it me or is the assholes who run the MTA are just putting timers in places that dont need timers?
Of all the places a R142 can go, Is it me or is the assholes who run the MTA are just putting timers in places that dont need timers?
I'm sorta glad the redbirds aren't around to see this disgusting injustice perpetrated. But not really. Bring back the ML's!
Arti
I don't suppose they're going to stick a timer at 66th St. n/b. That would really suck.
Wayne
It is exactly that, though the window on the back of the train has been called the "Anti-Railfan Window" by one of our fellow Subtalkers.
Held my lunch.
What's the big deal?
Speaking of Nausea, is R36 9685 on the 7 still rambling on about the redbirds? See I made him the first person since E_Dog to be on my killfile, and I refuse to take him off, so thats why I have to ask.
Mark
Chuck Greene
At the reverse (anti) railfan window, however, on DC Metro, I have no problem (maybe because I'm distracted by the view?). But seated, no. I have to sit facing forward, or I WILL stand. Why? I don't know. Just is the case with me, though.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In fact, that term is growing in popularity. There are now at least three SubTalkers who call it by its correct name, the "anti-railfan window."
But, wouldn't you say that three people calling it that doesn't necessarily make it the "correct" term?
I'm one of them. 8-D
I call it the Reverse Railfan Window.
A Wodniw Nafliar is the same only facing backwards.
A Railfan View is where you are seperated from the outside by two or more translucent panes.
A Crappy Railfan View is where you are seperated from the outside by two or more tinted, dirty or polerized translucent panes.
A Railfan Portal is where you are seperated from the outside by two or more translucent panes that are partially obstructed by paint, newspaper, metal plates, curtains, jackets, etc.
A railfan is the person who blocks your view of the front window. :0)
Mark
Also, a railfan window HAS to provide an unobstructed view of the road (no scratchitti for good photo quality).
Show's anybody who's jaded with transit what goes on elsewhere:
Home builders and construction-related businesses are the top contributors to a campaign aimed at defeating a transportation plan and related sales-tax increases that go before city voters Tuesday, according to campaign finance reports.
The Committee for Real Regional Transportation, a group that opposes propositions 200 and 201, reported raising $77,500 by the most recent filing deadline of Oct. 15.
I've thought about that, but I couldn't imagine building a rail line that would slow their growth of building shoddy sub-divisions. But it must be like that though, since the toughest most vocal election and public interest fights are ones concerning builders vs. railroaders. I don't see where the line of coexistance has been drawn at. Highways get maxed out very easy.
The list of the top five cities that young single people flock to came out the other day, 4 out of five have a decent transportation structure or are in the process of building one, and the fifth, I don't get. It's interesting how those same four are ones I thought about living in too.
Portland(we all know what's up there). Vegas(wasn't bad when I was round here). Atlanta(know a few that's here now). Charlotte(growing city with future LRT line). naples(HUH? I thought only old people with 30million dollar homes moved here).
Obviously cities you can't get around in, or have no centers/walking centers weren't on here.
Not in this order.
In order to justify public transport, you need a reasonably high housing density. Otherwise people just drive cars. This tends to mean that the property taxes per unit are not as high compared with the lower density McMansions, but the demand for infrastructure is the same or higher, particularly schools, which are the biggest chunk of a townships budget.
So the townships are conspiring with the builders for either low density housing, or eldercare sheltered housing (where there are no kids) to minimize their outlays.
Roads are a lot less expensive to build per mile than either light or heavy rail (though I wonder how that works out if you look at the cost per passenger mile). We are used to building roads on the basis of if you build it, they will come, but we dont plan at all for any high-density transport after the fact, which is one of the reasons why retrofitting any sort of rail project after the fact is so expensive.
I dont have a solution to this, as the builder/road lobbies are very strong in local communities (check out how many builders/contractors are on local councils!). Even when politicians acknowledge that there have to be some limits to growth, such as Jim McGreevys Smart Growth plans in New Jersey, they are scuttled by the lobbyists without any rational discussion.
Unfortunately, while this behavior is immoral, its not actually criminal.
Another place these assholes should go to is the DC area. Check out all of the places they stuck apartments, condos and houses along WMATA Metrorail lines, and tell me how much profit the developers are making off the LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!
Speaking of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION, they should go to Dallas. I hear that DART is causing a boom there.
Actually they should get out of the awful smog that passes for air in Houston, and check out the cities I mentioned. Then they should put their money behind Metrorail in Houston, instead of against it.
Everything you said is right, and those aren't even the only examples too!! The value's of those places are higher than normal due to their high demand too.
The day I get my way, will be the day I live within a 1000 yards of a train station of some sort. I'll keep my car for recreation, which is the only thing I like using it for, not staring at the pavement on a highway trapped.
Not even mentioning park and ride(your parking and riding on a highway anyway!).
If he's smart, though, he'll make friends with people who can help him subcontract on those jobs, and bone up on his skills so he can compete. Where he might formerly be skirting permits and codes, for example, he really has to pay attention now, and so on.
But people can be lazy.
The flip side is that the senators and congressmen from states such as Arizona are the ones who block federal mass transit capital funds for large cities such as New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc. These same folks don't seem to be parochial when it comes to getting federal aid for their highways or federal dollars for their defense contractors.
Wrong. Boeing moved virtually their entire helicopter operation to Mesa, AZ for a reason.
Imagine how much less traffic Los Angeles would have today if the city still had it's Red Cars and the more than 1,000 miles of track they rode on. Who framed Roger Rabbit? The same people who tell your city, "Don't build light rail!"
I like that quote.
Oh, also, the Q express I was on, an R40, was packed tight in all except for one car, 4315, where there were NO PEOPLE in there at all. Not a single person! Anyone know what the deal with THAT is?
Did it smell?
Was there something on the floor/seats?
As for R68 2755, its original numberplates were damaged during delivery and were replaced with numberplates resembling those on the R38s.
David
Where did they get the replacement numberboard from? An old BMT Standard or did they have someone manufacture it?
David
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Eskimo pie?
wayne
Eeewwwwwwww!!!!
The Van Courtlandt Madman
My boss says that Car 2755 was involved in a collision leaving Coney island Yard on it's first day of service. A flatcar was pushed through the side of the car. The nomber board is actually 4 stick-on numbers.
the Q express I was on, an R40, was packed tight in all except for one car, 4315, where there were NO PEOPLE in there at all. Not a single person!
Sometines cars are isolated because of infectious waste or someties because of vandalism such as missing glass. The train can stay in service until it reaches its terminal.
Otherwise, yes, vote, if you don't the other side always wins(that's what they count on sometimes).
:)
....and accomplished our goals!!!!
I didn't/couldn't vote since I wasn't in the district in question though, but it's a good day for us humans in my neck of the woods. Hopefully voter turn-out did the same in other areas. :)
First One
Most Equipment
Most People Riding It Per Day
Most Stations
Newest
Your Favorite
-Robert King
Car Equipment is holding a Car Appearance Rodeo on Saturday at 207th Street Yard (employees only I imagine, though the flyer does not say so). The rodeo runs from 7A to 1P.
As part of the "entertainment," they will be running the "Museum Type R-9 Cars." Southbound the train will leave 207th Street Yard and operate via Tracks A5/A3/A4 to 59th Street/Columbus Circle. There the train will relay and operate via Tracks A4/A2/A6 to 207th Street Yard.
The GO runs from 0700 to 1600 hours. It states: "The Excursion Train will repeat the operation indicated above until the completion of the General Order." No other specific times are cited in the GO for the train's operation.
Be guided accordingly, as we say in RTO. It may only be out there between 8A and 11A or so.
Please voice your opinions.
Come to think of it, have you ever seen how crowded those elevators get, and how much space the operators take up? Remove the operator and five or six more passengers will fit in the elevator.
'Elevate the Heights' is the group fighting the cuts.
They just put them NWA (no work available) you use up your sick and vacation time until you have none left and then you get zero money.
AND NYCT is exempt from having to provide disability insurance,
AND they argue that putting you out NWA does not make you eligible for unemployment insurance.
Suppose a passenger jumps in front of a train and the motorman can't stop and is seriously traumatized by the incident. What recourse does the motorman have?
Now we do not get disability insurance unless we get individual policies which are VERY expensive relative to what everyone else pays.
I said that it would cost the same to pay them their full salary while they stay home and have no one operate the elevator.
What I am saying is that if they can't get an E/O spot they stay home unpaid.
Could you please tell me how you figure one elevator operator on a stool and carrying a portable radio equals 5 passengers.
The system has some dehumanizing elements, such as prerecorded annoucements which do give full clear information. Yet for me, they are irritating and steile. I enjoy listening to an occasional conductor who barely speaks English, but does it in a refreshing way. Or there is a regular conductor on one of the lines that I ride who has a real fascinating, deep, yet weary voice.
That's a million-dollar job.
Who pays more vigorish to the politicos? Otis or mom and pop? Asked and answered.
Bad example. The TA should do more of that. An eevator operator can be retrained to be a car cleaner or perform other duties, and recent TA layoffs are making it more urgent for the TA to be able to flexibly use staff.
My attitude: Install the new elevator and offer the elevator operators lteral transfers to other areas.
As to feeding your family, Unca Kev himself understood how important it was to learn new skills and adapt. You would not have been able to leqave the TA and do what you're doing now without that. Maybe the elevator operators should think about that. New Yorkers have more opportunity to learn new skills than just about anywhere else in the country.
Remember "welfare reform," or "pick yourself up by your bootstraps?" "Welfare to work?" and numerous other incentives to get people off the dole and out working for themselves? THESE are the folks we're now casting off. The folks who lived by the rules and WORKED for a living. Retraining funds are virtually nonexistent these days.
I've been flat broke too in my past, been through the worst of the worst too. And before I come off sounding like some pasty liberal, I'm anything but. As a direct result of having been there. System's all wrong. There SHOULD be "public assistance" ... AS A LOAN! Everyone is down and out sometime in their life. Often a haircut, shave and a suit to wear on an interview is all someone in a trap needs to get back into the ledger as a positive. "Government programs" have NEVER offered this simple and most cost-effective option. I'll leave that as one conceptual view into my own mindset and defer any further comment, now or in replies since this is WOEFULLY off topic for here.
I'll just leave it at there *ARE* solutions ... but they're not in the gubbamint playbook of EITHER party ... and neither is interested in a REAL solution that will work. Meanwhile the world, like the subways, continues to deteriorate. It's deja vu all over again. :(
David
I *do* see the safety concern ... maybe we can replace them with assigned GUARDS. I'd rather see a few trains get tagged as preferred to PEOPLE. But I *do* see the safety concerns. It's way different "off-peak" than a packed Otis at rush hour. :(
But seriously, aside from right wing madness, I still believe that there needs to be SOMEBODY "assigned," at least off-peak. Maybe I should hit up the Secretary of State and form "MILLAR Security Corp." ... MUCH better to hand that check to a corporation that can charge $30,000 a WEEK than some poor schlump with a radio. :-\
And I mean no harm to you personally, the idea strikes me as SO antithetical to the "New York Experience" ... and since, unlike upstate, concealed sidearms are prohibited, I don't really see another choice for the riders. (in all seriousness here)
SAFETY: "If there are 16 people in the elevator, it's guaranteed not to get stuck."
SECURITY: "If there are 16 people in the elevator, I'm guaranteed not to get mugged."
See the difference?
But again, it's not for a SubTalker to determine whether this is a security issue. It's up to the NYPD and NYCT security people.
David
But yeah, in these contrived "bunker times of black helicopters hovering overhead" (like Daddy's administration) I suppose smokers prefer the Uzi. :(
But I'm not arguing your point. I missed it originally, because the CONCEPT reminded me so much of the politicos paying us to conduct yet ANOTHER "realignment of the deck chairs" so I've become numb to "let's change this title to THIS title, call Civil Service and fill out a "parity" report, then let out a personal services contract to the Totterdam dog catcher who got caught with the 13 year old, send him to the city and put him into a Management Confidential title in the MTA." No joke, old politicians don't die, they get LINE-ITEMED!
If you're REAL GOOD and are owed many political favors, you go to COMMERCE ... if you're an a$$hat, you go to the MTA ... politicians are easily satisfied with titles too ... the word "planner" sounds important and buries a knocked-up secretary ... no joke ... seen it all. That's why political word games just breeze right past my head. Sorry I missed it the first time. Bottom line though, you're RIGHT ... the only silly place where we disagreed apparently is *WHO* is in the elevator and can't get out.
Frankly, I'd rather SECURITY spend their time OUTSIDE the elevator, keeping the ne'er-do-wells AWAY from it. But let's also be real here - there's such a thing as a "diversion" to "draw off all cops" so something else can be played around the corner ... Sgt JEFF? Can you tell us about any "diversions" you've seen played in any of the precincts YOU were in? To MY experience, "bomb scare" is just another sidewalk act. What can I say? I grew up in Da Bronx. HOME of the sidewalk act. :)
David... What does your statement mean? Should we not be discussing this issue here? Are we going out of the chain of command?
I don't believe the MTA has commissioned Subtalk to solve their problems, although many subtalkers seem willing to offer up solutions.
Giving that we are not members of the MTA Security Committee, then I see no problem with any us discussing this, even if the discussions here sometimes sound like air being blown out of someone's rear end.
By the way, it should be noted that many elevators throughout the subway system are not staffed and have never been staffed.
David
Oh David... You're feeding me straight lines today.
Once a fact has been established, opinions to the contrary are meaningless. I love that. Maybe I've grown cynical in my twilight years.
Let's see... After 9/11, government agencies assured people living and working in downtown Manhattan that there was no need to worry about the air quality.
It seemed like a fact that was established.
During the 1950's, the Atomic Energy Commission said that there was no need to worry about radiation even if you lived downwind of a nuclear test. Maybe close your windows and keep Johnny inside for a little while.
Our President reassures us that the government is doing all they can do to protect us from terrorists. We should feel safe. Strange that someone was able to break through the security that surrounds him.
Even though it is meaningless, I will continue to discuss this issue.
I fished up two articles about some of the elevator operators from the uptown stations.
An Unusual Life 100 Feet Down and Up and Down Again
Warm Memories Lost to Cold Steel Walls
By the way, according to the July version of the 2004 NYCT operating budget, which is still available on the MTA website, each station to lose elevator operators is still to have operator coverage for one elevator 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Funny how the news media missed that fact...and that's MY opinion.
David
Would you want to be on an elevator with only one or two other guys in Washington Heights at 3 in the morning? I don't think so...
Read a book about muggers. If not a book, search Google for tips on mugging people. Most muggers look to get a victim in an isolated situation. Other people present creates problems.
You know I never thought of that. I have no answer to that question. I'm overwhelmed by your debating skills.
You know I'm being sarcastic, which isn't nice.
I'm sorry. Let me use your own words to tell you what I think of your argument.
That's pretty stupid.
A person surveilling an elevator by camera can also call for help.
Right, I believe that.
No he will not. It is job to report suspicious activity. Do you seriously think that a mugging could possibly look like something legal?
Assuming his wasn't distracted by something else.
You were the one who first mentioned an employee's failure to report crime occuring on the job.
If someone can spend 8 hours in a steel box pressing buttons like a trained monkey, then yes, someone can spend 8 hours looking at a TV.
You're one to talk.
In addition, an E/O will not cause any reports to get to the PD faster.
A person behind a camera has nothing to fear.
Because you know, there are so few people with phones in New York.
A group of people who shun technology. They live mainly in Pennsylvania.
Being it someone at the other end od a CCTV camera or an E/O in an elevator.
And a person at the other end of a camera is better than an E/O because he or she cannot be a victim.
You asked what Amish were.
The E/O can activate his alarm when he gets the chance.
Unless the E/O does not have a chance.
The operators maintain their "personal space" with barriers. Replace the operator with subway passengers (who don't care about personal space) and you could easily fit five of them, loosely packed, or more under crush conditions.
The next time you have to pass up an elevator because you can't fit, notice that the person who's taking up more space than anyone else on the elevator is just riding back and forth.
I'm all in favor of improved security. That means putting properly trained and equipped security guards in the appropriate places at the appropriate times. It doesn't mean putting random people in random places at random times.
What does the NYPD think of this plan? I know the NYPD didn't think NYCT's initial token booth closure proposal of 2001 raised any security concerns. Why not take the word of the experts?
As far as I know, NYCT does not use any security guards on trains or in stations. Its "protection agents" are used exclusively in yards and other non-public areas. The NYPD is solely responsible for train and station security.
I frequently use the MTA elevator at 34th St & Broadway, and that car often smells. It's embarrassing to see a woman with a child in a baby carriage have to use it.
If you're so troubled by having someone sit and operate the elevators, well they can install several closed circuit cameras in each car which video-tape everything. Put a panic alarm in the car. And one more very important thing. If the surveillance system fails for any reason, take the car out of service until it's fixed or post a transit police officer until it's fixed.
I agree with your suggestion of surveillance cameras.
In the past, when one of the operators had to take down some of the items he had hung up to give the car a personal touch, many members of the community were upset and expressed their gratitude for the operator's presence and personality.
Honestly, David, I think that these elevator operators are exposed to a tremendous number of people coughing and sneezing in a confined space. I wouldn't want the job just for those health concerns.
And if some of the money saved could be spent on real security improvements, like surveillance cameras or an increased police presence, then the users of those stations will be better off than they are now in terms of security, and NYCT will save money to boot.
Some people think that the MTA is evil whenever it tries to save money. I don't understand that point of view. Saving money is great! (After all, that money comes out of our pockets.) Reducing service or security is what needs to be avoided.
As usual.
Where do the flights from Mac Arthur airport go?
Southwest is the main carrier at ISP, with flights to Chicago-Midway, Baltimore, Orlando, Tampa, Nashville, W. Palm Beach and Ft. Lauderdale, a total of 23 departures a day. Delta has flights to Cincinnati and Atlanta, Continental to Cleveland, American to Boston and USAirways to Philadelphia, all of these flights being operated using smaller regional jets (or turboprops, in the case of USAirways).
Ok. Thanks alot. I got the souhtwest destinations from the website just a lil before, but thanks. They're really making great use of that airport. Do they get a lot of ridership on those flights?
What I need to know is which airlines(and which division of those airlines) flies to which locations. Thanks for the info you gave me, here's how I've put it together(Aside from Southwest)(along with other info):
Continental Express:
Cleaveland
Albany
American Eagle:
Boston
USAirways:
Philadelphia
Albany
My problem with Delta is that there are 3 divisions that serve Mac Arthur:
Delta Express
Comair(Delta Connection)
American Southeast Airlines
Which one goes where? I would assume it's ASA and Delta Express to Atlanta, and Delta Express and Comair to Cincinnati, but that's just a guess.
What is Q2 and OPT. I see these listed as airlines arriving and departing. Are these private jets? Last night I saw one from Allentown, PA, and today it's from White Plains, and one to Houston, Tx.
I believe so. Southwest is very good at "yield management," in other words making sure that flights are as full as possible with people paying a mix of fares. Which is no doubt a big part of the reason why they're arguably the most successful airline in the world :)
Actually, Southwest may have had even greater plans for ISP, above and beyond their current 23 daily departures, but they're facing significant low-fare competition thanks to the growth of JetBlue at JFK.
My problem with Delta is that there are 3 divisions that serve Mac Arthur:
Delta Express
Comair(Delta Connection)
American Southeast Airlines
Which one goes where? I would assume it's ASA and Delta Express to Atlanta, and Delta Express and Comair to Cincinnati, but that's just a guess.
Delta Express no longer exists. It was abolished when Delta created its "Song" low-fare division. Song doesn't serve ISP.
Comair operates the flights to CVG and ASA has the ATL flights.
What is Q2 and OPT. I see these listed as airlines arriving and departing. Are these private jets? Last night I saw one from Allentown, PA, and today it's from White Plains, and one to Houston, Tx.
Most likely privates. There is no airline with the code OPT, while Q2 is a small carrier in the Maldive Islands.
True, but ISP is pretty far from JFK, but yea, the low prices of JetBlue do make it worth the trek. But if Southwest wanted to, they could serve a few more cities from ISP(New Orleans, Salt Lake City, and Las Vegas), they could be making more money off of Islip. What were the plans that they had previously?
I didn't kno Delta Express was gone. Someone should update that on the Mac Arthur Website.
Where is the Maldive Islands?
Flying Southwest sorta reminds me of riding the LIRR. On the LIRR, you have the cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons at Penn Station every evening, as everyone jockeys for position on the platforms in an attempt to get prime seats. On Southwest, with its no-reserved-seating policy, you get sheep-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute queues as people line up at the gate counters in the hope of getting low-number boarding cards. Once onboard, both the LIRR and Southwest have a Baby Elephant Walk, as people plod down the aisles in seach of seats.
And the last time I checked, every seat on the airplane usually gets to the destination at about the same time. :0)
Yeah, but Southwest passengers don't want middle seats, hence the Baby Elephant Walk - they hope there are aisle or window seats near the rear of the aircraft.
Come to think of it, most Baby Elephant Walkers on the LIRR pass up middle seats on the 3-across sides in search of something better.
Southwest hadn't come out with any specific plans, just a general statement of intent regarding future expansion. Even with JetBlue's competition, I wouldn't be surprised to see Southwest start service from ISP to Las Vegas and/or Phoenix, both of them cities where they have extensive operations.
The Maldives are a group of islands in the Indian Ocean, said to be a popular vacation spot for affluent Europeans.
Hint: turquoise on these photos = shallow water with a sandy bottom.
I remember calling them abotu the flight from Orange County (CA) to Islip -- the reservation gal laughed, she said "Yeah, we have such a flight, but you'll have a sore bottom by the time you hit Islip with all the takeoffs and landings.
And the fare was, at the time, only $79.00 -- but with all the added per-takeoff/landing fees, etc., it was right up there with a non-stop flight on American from OC to JFK. The Southwest flight also would have taken about nine hours with all the stops!!
Islip-Cleaveland-Chicago-Omaha-Salt Lake City-Oakland
I also have proposals for a few more multiple stop routes:
Baltimore/Washington-Islip-Hartford-Providence-Manchester
LosAngeles-Las Vegas-Salt Lake City-Omaha-Chicago-Detroit-Buffalo-Albany-Manchester
West Palm Beach-Tampa-New Orleans-Houston-Austin-Odessa-Albuquerque-Salt Lake City-Boise-Spokane-Seattle
and other stuff
Seattle-San Francisco-Orange County-Las Vegas-Pittsburgh-Jacksonville.
I used it a few times on the Orange County-Las Vegas leg, and the pilots were the firstone out the door in LAS so they could hit the in-terminal slot machines!!!!
If time weren't a problem, I'd probably prefer that routing to a nonstop!
The message forum is great, they will answer all you questions.
http://www.airliners.net
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
R142 is the Perfect Train........ FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
The Van Courtlandt Madman
Incognito
www.railfanwindow.com
As Michael Moores has been saying on his whirlwind book tour, the Democratic party does have a problem with finding good, strong, principled leaders who are not affraid to say what they believe loudly and consistantly. Until we get some backbone into our party the Republicans will continue to capitalize upon our fragmentation with such ploys as non-Partisan primaries where a single, strong Repiglican leader can win the mayor's office with only %20 support.
People speak of the need for a third party, but hell, in this day and age we need a SECOND party. We need a genuine opposition party to that travesty going on down in Washington. We all need to get up out of our chairs, grab some of our friends, march down to the local Democratic party meetings and force those old political hacks to STOP RUNNING WUSSES!
Anyway, I am watching the French Connection II and Hackman is chasing down the French guy in a trolley bus and it seems like this is about as good as its going to get so I gotta go.
And I suppose this is the on-topic excuse for posting this political nonsense?
Dave P. - I say delete this topic.
Anyway, this is not the proper forum for this debate.
As anyone who thought about it understood, the result of non-partisan elections would have been two Democrats on the ballot in the general election (when everyone shows up) in most races. This would have given a chance to reform minded Democrats who were in favor of giving a break to those who don't benefit from New York's myriad special deals. It might have led to reform within the Democratic Party. That's why the Post was against it.
I believe the Post endorsed it. Or was it the Daily News?
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll withhold my own comment, but that was the plan ...
WRONG!
The party would still be listed near the name.
That's the way it was dished down here, too. It was the incumbent-ocracy's worst nightmare. Instead of having a Democrat who sold us out easy winning a primary dominated by those he/she sold out to, then facing a Republican no one wants to vote for in the general election, he/she might have faced a DEMOCRAT listed as such who HADN'T sold out in the general election.
What's the lesson of Enron/Worldcon/pro-forma acounting etc? What's the lesson of those debt-ridden boomtime budgets that are killing us know? What's the lesson of the "free" pension deal. What's the lesson of the "surplus preserving" Bush tax cuts? What's the lesson of the campaign against non-partisan elections as proposed.
Fraud pays.
Thanks.
The PHOTO!
Try again!
or if it don't work go here
http://community.webshots.com/user/jbar387
It's in the Busses Album.
Sorry Guys.Enjoy
A suggestion. If you don't mind making some phone calls to the MTA, with some luck and persistence, you might get someone in Engineering or Car Maintenance who you could ask the question of.
Here's another suggestion. Just ask some of the crews on the trains you ride if they have gotten any complaints about the low level of sound.
Your question makes me wonder if there is any volume control on the control panel for the automated annoucements. Perhaps Kawasaki knowing what the automated annoucements (especially the guy who says "Stand clear of the closing doors") sound like, lowered the level on annoucements in an act of mercy.
I cross a smaller city on my way home from work every day, and every now and then I feel like riding their bus system for a while. The announcements on their buses are almost inaudible too (unless you hold your ear right next to the speaker). I've talked to the bus drivers about that numerous times, and they told me that a bunch of old folks complained about the volume of the announcements, claiming they were too loud to exchange the daily gossip or something. So, now they're inaudible and useless (and I cannot tape them :o( )
From the information I got, the maintenance crew would have to manually adjust every speaker as there is no volume control switch anywhere (some announcement systems adjust the volume by the level of noise inside the car immediately before triggering the announcements).
I'm wondering whether New Flyer was wondering if the Kawasaki and Bombardier audio systems are different and perhaps the cause of what was noticed.
I'm going to try to do a random sampling of cars, noting the sound level, and then noting who is the car manufacturer. Last winter, I noted a difference in car temperatures between the two manufacturers.
Maybe some regular riders of the IRT can take note of the annoucement volume and report their results.
For an article on the PA systems in the R-142s, check out the following link from Sound and Video Contractor magazine. It does not provide any information as to whether the systems are different on the 142As from the 142s, but it is quite interesting to read. I have noticed that the actual PA loudspeaker locations on the R142As are different from the R142s; if the engineers did not take into account this difference when calibrating the audio system levels then that could be part of it; the R142s' loudspeaker positions, as I recall, face downward; the R142As are in that curvy section towards the top of the car and face inward.... just my $ .02
http://svconline.com/ar/avinstall_install_month_2/index.htm
The article said:
"The audio interface contains two audio lines for the passenger voice microphone and the crew voice speaker, replacing the old-fashioned emergency pull cord method."
Have they eliminated the emergency pull cord in the new cars? I haven't really noticed since I usually wear a pair of welder's goggles to protect my eyes from the blinding light.
Of course, once the door is open and the cord is pulled, the train may not stop. Between stations, the cord sends a signal to the crew but doesn't actually stop the train.
The R142A (Kawasaki) cars are all on the #6 line with some R142 and R142A's on the #4 line mixed with the remaining R62's that didn't go to the #3 line yet.
Volume too LOW?
Scrap them Rmadillos!!
Announcements on the (4), (5), and (6) are fine. Announcements on the (2) are perhaps TOO loud.
To me the announcments and lighted strip maps are a waste. BUT a relative from out of town, who hadn't ridden the subway in years, LOVED them. Obviously, some people have needs that the average poster on this board does not.
For the last 10 years, there has been a public outcry to pave or remove the rails but nothing was done, as the final determination to return the line to rail operation has not been made.
It seems to me that since this short stretch was done outside a polling place on Election Day, it's nothing but a political ploy and a very shallow one at that.
Mark
I get feelings like that everytime I pass the lot full of old SEPTA PCCs on Wisahickon Avenue. Some are in pretty bad shape, but even if they aren't fit for revenue service they would at least be sent to museums or something instead of rotting in the weather.
: (
Mark
Mark
Their fear is that if it succeeds, the city will pressure them to to the same thing on Erie.
SEPTA is on record that there will be no surface streetcar operations other than the Subway-Surface lines. PTC/NCL had the same basic mindset, and SEPTA went right in lockstep. PTC had reduced the streetcar system from 1955 to 1968, and SEPTA finished the job.
It's been 11 years since 15, 23 and 56 had streetcars. Girard has riders that have never had to walk out in the street to board. The City and SEPTA's PR department have their work cut out.
SEPTA's got a bigger problem looming - the K cars.
Kawasaki delivered a good product, even if it is the "ugly sister" of LRV's, not exceeded until Breda's products to San Fransisco and Boston. It arrived in 1981, and that's 22 years. Even with a GOH, SEPTA has to start seriously thinking of the replacement.
I suspect that all we can do is watch and hope.
This is the cynical part of my post:
You'd think that given SEPTA's two main missions, awarding fat contracts to the cronies of its directors and to give cushy jobs to relatives of cronies, bustitution wouldn't be such a hot idea. Restoring old rail services would require a good deal of construction work, which would mean more contracts to give to cronies. What's more, improved service means more riders and that would ultimately mean SEPTA would need more workers, hence more jobs to dole out to the relatives of cronies.
Ok, that was really jaded, but I'm still puzzled as to the reasons SEPTA is still carrying out a policy engineered fifty years ago to fulfill someone else's ulterior motives. Just blind lazy habit?
Mark
Wdobner is the guy. He loves "busses."
: )
Mark
I realize some of the trolley lines that SEPTA abandoned were unlikely candidates for continued operation. Route 6 (Ogontz Ave.) had a long stretch of deteriorated non-revenue track on Old York Road that tied it to the rest of the system; Route 53 (Wayne Ave.) had pretty low ridership; and Route 50 (Rising Sun/5th and 6th Sts.) had lots of narrow streets and tie-ups to contend with.
That said, it would seem Route 60 (Allegheny Ave.), along with 56 and at least parts of 23 have some real potential for trolley operations. Of course, Allegheny was paved over and the line poles removed years ago, and now, alas, 56 seems to be going that way too.
I would think that would make the route an even better route to restore from SEPTA's point of view because the more work required to restore trolley service, the fatter the contract they can award to their cronies. Restoring rail just makes good sense from a crony politics point of view.
Mark
Also, last night I was spelling it right, I think you were signed off, but nobody said anything.
BUSS - another word for kiss
BUS - Rubber tired transit vehicle
Maybe he loves both !
Bill "Newkirk"
When SEPTA acquired the assets in 1968, other than the executive level, almost all the management came from PTC.
NCL acquired control of PTC in 1954 and 14 years later, Philadelphia's streetcar system was 85% gone.
Once the pro-bus culture was ingraded, it gets carried to the next generation of middle management - where most of the senior and upper level management comes from.
Baltimore has the same problem - The MTA here took BTC after 2 long-term strikes. When the takeover occurred, other than the top people, everybody I delt with was an BTC man in the same position.
It's now 30 years later, and despite 2 rail operations, the MTA is a bus company. The bus side is 90% of the system, and has 90% of the problems. Bus tires fly off, equipment is poorly maintained, and the operating force is becoming dispirited. There are lots of good people behind the steering wheels and the controllers, but there's plenty of workers that have the "it's just a job" attitude.
I posted on a local transit BBS that the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is better managed than the MTA. Our cars get properly maintained, the bills get paid and projects get done. The last item sometimes takes years, but we don't have access to large amounts of tax cash. Our double tracking project has been ongoing for 15 years, but 100% of the work done we did ourselves, as well as all the other stuff we have to do. It will be done, but not as fast as we all would like.
That's a curious phenomenon. What do you think is behind this attitude?
Mark
Also you should thank local politicos for the attitude also. Many city politicians think that the trolleys are an anachronism, and they thought SEPTA was mistreating their consituents keeping the slow trolleys running instead of faster buses. And the condition of the tracks were a sore point with some homeowners, and residents in the neighborhoods that drive, the tracks causing damage to their cars' suspension and other perceived and actual maladies.
The suburban lines, with their extensive off-street ROW, had far better support from their consituents, except when someone suggested that some intersections with the trolley lines be closed off so the cars can run faster. SEPTA decided not to test that idea, and keep themselves in the good graces out there.
Mark
Another problem is that Philly poorly enforces traffic laws. Much of the enforcement is scattershot at most, non existent at best in some neighborhoods. This hurts the effective movement of trolleys, and makes it hard to stay on-time.
Last, but not least, is the precarious funding status of SEPTA. If this system had a STABLE AND RELIABLE funding base, maybe more resources would be committed to improving service, not the hand-to mouth, and hope everything stays in one piece approach taken today. That's a serious political problem, and I do not hold out hope that elected officials will be enlightened enough to do something about it, considering how petty the politicians in this area are.
Actually, the street I always though would be a good place for a trolley is Frankford Avenue north of the el terminal. This street is wide enough for a dedicated ROW and it already has overhead wires for the 66 trolley bus. Plus the route carries a ton of riders down a street that already has lots of residents and thriving businesses.
The other idea I had, which no one would go for, is to make one or two of Philly's narrow streets into trolley-only ROWs. I could imagine the route of the 23 being dedicated in such a manner, eliminating traffic problems. I know too many people would complain, but I think losing two narrow streets that are a pain to drive on in the first place is no big sacrifice. There are streets in downtown San Diego that have been made trolley-only in this manner, in fact.
But the issues of funding and traffic law enforcement are very real indeed. Yuck.
Mark
Due to too much crime and not enough cops. Priority calls and shootings in some neighborhoods already have a waiting list for an availble unit during certain parts of the day.
Maybe if they took a part of those high taxes, and used part to fund police, and part for transit,etc. we'll be on the right track.
IE. Most cities have or propose one cent sales taxes that can only be used for this. Of course it obviously costs more to run a SEPTA bus or train than in other cities.
Were they any police notices taped up to the poles for a no-parking notice for total street-repavement?
Katz loser campaign train
Metro's Train Comes In: Rail Plan Approved
I'm glad to hear this since the current almost-open 7-mile line isobviously far less than a city the size of Houston needs. This is expecially pleasing to hear after reading that thread about home builders funding the anti-rail campaign (News from Elsewhere: Homebuilders pay BIG $$$ to derail rail).
Houston is one of those cities about which it has been said that it probably could use a heavy rail system given its size. This may very well be true, but in a region where transit has traditionally faced steep uphill battles I'm happy to see any rail projct at all being approved.
Mark
Now if they can only build that high-speed rail triangle to connect Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio!
And by the way, if you don't like wet heat and big bugs, those are only in east Texas. Try El Paso. The Rio Grande is barely even wet there! It's just too bad the Juarez Trolley no longer runs across it.
Mark
Oh MAN ... spent time in Tyler, Galveston (SLAP John Denver!), Port Arthur and WHACKO! Agggggh! Superconductor, copper, fire ants. Aggggggggggh! Heh.
Seriously though, there's a NEED ... and for EXACTLY the same reasons New York spent a PHUCKLOAD of money 100 years ago to get some "traction action" ... now if only you guys could DO soemthing about your "Dick Armey" and other "preverts," we might be ON to something. Texas is done as an "oil producer" ... it's time to THANK Enron for all it's done and lay some IRON. Yee-haw! (grin)
I think the LA red line isn't the best reference to use, since Dallas would need a line that goes somewhere, which LA's red line doesn't. But that doesn't mean Dallas might not be able to make use of a good heavy rail line that actually goes somewhere useful. The problem with the LA red line isn't that it's heavy rail, it's that it doesn't go anywhere. So the red line's uselessness shouldn't be an argument against heavy rail in Dallas, but rather an argument that any rail line, whatever the mode, should run somewhere where people need to go.
This is why I'm pleased that the Houston referrendum on light rail expansion passed. The first stage, a seven-mile line from I-610 to downtown Houston, could have ended up being the LA red line of Texas if these additional miles of trackage were halted.
Mark
The Texans for True Mobility campaign was starting to get so offensive to me, they could've been against dupping toxic fluids and oil into the Gulf and I wouldn't have supported them. But this is great(i guess 2-3 good decisions now make up for the Orlando pile of crap).
Highlights:
"This vote does reflect the desperation of Houstonians for immediate traffic relief," said Culberson, R-Houston, one of Metro's harshest critics. "The closeness reflects deep flaws in Metro's plan."
[the second quote is also crap really, but if you annoy enough people, i guess they vote]
"Not everyone shared Wulfe's enthusiasm, however. Valerie Villegas of Katy, a University of Houston student, didn't buy Metro's claims that $5.8 billion of rail will improve regional mobility.
"They want to spend a lot of money but I don't think a lot of things are going to change," she said while on a Metro bus to campus. "They are just going to create more traffic problems." "
[I agree that people on transit are off the roads obviously, but i'm starting to back out of the idea transit's sole purpose is to clear up the roads. I'm starting to buy back into it's another option if you aren't on the roads, and it does help. If i'm on the train, I could honestly care less what's going on on the highways. I'm moving, and they aren't, it's not my job to make the highways a more whimsical commute(interstates aren't designed for this either). Take philly's R7 or R3, those people aren't on I-95(which helps 95), but the people on 95 obviously aren't paying attention to the trains whizzing by(maybe they are too quiet). Park-n-ride could be doing better than it is.]
Houston stays on the list of can visit/live now. If only they could build this stuff overnight, or under 23 years. :)
Anybody have the numbers of this guys election campaign? I get the feeling he would've said this if it was even 90% to 10%, and even if it's as "popular" as Tampa's Teco Trolley, he'd still be saying that line.
To me, rail transit is really about choice. If I don't have rail transit, then sitting in traffic is my only option. No choice there. I wonder why pro-transit campaigning doesn't use the choice angle. It's one that sells very well.
Mark
How about this for a slogan ... "Transit - the Pro-Choice Alternative" ... no wait, that could really be misunderstood :)
But really, I wish some pro-transit organization would name itself the Coalition for Transportation Choice or something like that. Not just because it's an angle that sells, but I know the other side is aware of this, and I want a pro-transit group to snag the name before an anti-transit group name itself something using the words "transportation choice." I can just see someone using a twisted argument to try to convince people that we have more choice if our only transportation option is driving.
They could do it, too. "Your car goes where YOU want," they might say, as if anyone really WANTS to be stuck in a parking lot of an expressway for two hours each morning and each evening.
Mark
Also, I wouldn't be able to understand if someone was against a rail proposal on the other side of town, but supported a highway proposal on the other side of town they wouldn't use anyway for the same cost. That's a question I have.
Arrrrgh! Such jealousy :)
BOSTON (AP) Bus, subway, and commuter rail riders will see fare increases beginning in January, under a new fare structure approved Thursday by the MBTA's board of directors.
The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority says the increases will generate $41 million a year, which is $9 million less than what the T called for in its original proposal.
Much of the new revenue will plug existing budget deficits, but officials say they'll also use funds to improve service.
Subway fares will increase from $1 to $1.25, bus fares from 75 cents to 90 cents, and commuter rail fares will go up by as much as 30 percent.
The new fares take effect Jan. 1.
1st they are telling the public that there might be the need for a fare increase, but why, didn't they just get what they needed ?
Well, consider the following:
- The TWU Local 100 contract expires at the end of this year. Now we're heard this before ... "we don't have any money, you are going to have to help with give backs"
- The City & TA have come to an impass on the take over of the "private" bus lines, can you say MONEY ?
- Then there's the mounting debt. One of the culprits are the Capital Projects that the votes said no to when the TA wanted a Bond issue to pay for it, i.e. LIRR access to Grand Central is a big items AND project managers have reported that the cost are escalating to the point where they are begining to re-think some elements of the design to try and keep it some what under control. The MTA has also let out contracts to STUDY the 2nd Ave Stubway, #7 extention to Javits, and Port Auth or TA links to the two airports. I'm not even mentioning all the other work that we see in the system (Atlantic Ave., Canarsie, etc.)
So, will the fare box have to help cover more of the costs, most likely, as long as Gov. George is in power.
Sorry for throwing this out here, but amongst subtalkers, you're the most PURE about never bringing up the "P-bomb" but DANG! It really all DOES come down to politics. :(
Does the MTA *really* need the money? *NO* ... but Paturkey DOES! State agencies have stolen our software but never PAID for it. It's even more personal NOW since THAT MONEY would have paid up my mortgage and I could have gotten to BRANFORD this year. Phuckers STOLE our software. :(
Did. It's already gone.
1) No state contribution to the 2000-04 capital plan. All debt. In effect, after borrowing on the books in his first term, and getting criticized, Pataki moved the state's debt off the books and on to the MTA in his second term. A la Enron.
2) Reduced employer pension contributions in the boom to cut taxes and keep the fare low. Another form of debt. With the stock market back at reasonable levels, pension costs are now exploding. And not just for the MTA.
3) Exploding extra because employees WITH 10 YEARS SENIORITY no longer contribute and retired employees (INCLUDING THOSE IN TIER 1 AND TIER 2 WHO NEVER PAID IN A DIME) got big pension increases.
4) Finally, the fare is lower than in was in the early 1990s, adjusted for all the new discounts and transfers. It is WAY down adjusted for inflation, or in comparison with the wage and health care costs of TA employees. Like those who benefitted from tax cuts, those who benefitted from fare cuts received a benefit made possible by borrowed money. Money that now has to be paid back.
It wasn't just Paturkey's people who were in on the deal. As always, the Democrats and their backers got a piece. The smart ones cashed in and left, as always.
Actually, that would never work in NY State. While I don't know if the state constitution even allows a recall vote, Pataki's voter base is mostly outside of NYC and they would never vote him out that way. Remember NYC pays more money to the state (and MTA) than it gets back.
All we can hope for is that someone runs against him in the next election and wins.
Thurston started the thread, and it's most definitely NYC based.
Wait a second. I thought these studies were over and the ground breaking ceremony was about to begin? I can't believe we are that far behind in the 2nd avenue subway where we are just studying the situation.
Is cut-and-cover causing a problem for certain landowners?
ESA was designed to go deep in part to address NIMBY and eliminate the need to underpin buildings.
The City and MTA may have a backdoor agreement on the franchises. Since it is more politically feasible to give the MTA "emergency money" rather than "operating money", we'll simply make an "emergency" out of the franchises. One option consists of a total service stoppage due to no contract, resulting in money being transferred to MTA to pick up the workers and the pieces. This is the easiest way to do the transfer because you can postpone the paperwork until later. It has happened before (Avenue B, 1980). Chances are, the Coopers won't accept an extension without higher payments
Q. So why was Mr. Rush in the wheelhouse?
A. Because he was a crewmember, presumably a lookout.
Q. So when passing the two-minute bouy, and seeing Mr. Smith not moving, did he not say, "Mr. Smith, here is the bouy."
A. ???
Mr. Rush states that Mr. Smith was standing erect and appeared to be in control. But he was standing *behind* Mr. Smith. It is very possible that Mr. Smith was having a blackout seizure, and was in a catatonic state. This happens very easily on the water, because the moving water has a mesmerizing effect on the mind.
This theory is borne out with Mr. Rush's statement that Mr. Smith said "Oh My God" as if he was just coming out of such a trance.
Captian Gansas told investigators "that he was in the wheelhouse", and in this he apparently told no lies, but he did not elaborate on *which* wheelhouse he was in, and allowed investigators to draw thier own conclusions.
If I were to assess blame baised on what has been published in the Times, this is what I would come up with:
75% Captain Gansas
20% Crewman Rush
5% Assistant Captain Smith
unless of course, Mr. Smith was intent on smashing the boat in perhaps a suicide attempt. Sitll, crewman Rush would have had some duty to act, and Captain Gansas is still grossly ngeligent in not being on the correct bridge.
Your thoughts, please...
Elias
You want my thoughts? My thoughts are that it is still WAAAAAAAY too early to be speculating about this stuff.
Mark
I know very little of Boston, other than that the North End is supposedly Italian, based on the Prince Spaghetti TV commercial, with Anthony Martinietti called home from the street by his mother for supper, and that the South Side is supposedly Irish, based on the 1997 film, "Good Will Hunting", and a passing mention of "Irish boys from South Side Boston", in a 1967 Rod Serling novella.
I find it interesting that South Boston is actually close to the northern end of the city. Obviously, the city grew southward after the area got its name.
Mark
Mark
Watch it, I live in Dorchester!
AEM7
OTOH, he had plenty of stories set in rural New England in which the "good native New England stock" came off like Tobacco Road.
Here's the link : http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/works/
The Cthulhu mythos Lovecraft story I am most familiar with is "The Shadow Over Innsmouth". I also know "Cool Air" and "Pickman's Model". The latter story is set in Boston, I think. The latter two stories were also episodes of "Night Gallery" on TV. Rod Serling was an unabashed fan of Lovecraft.
The Shadow Over Innsmouth and The Colour Out of Space are my two Lovecraft favorites. If you like Lovecraft, be sure to visit these sites: Arkham House, the late August Derleth's publishing which perpetuated HPL's work after the Pulp Era, and for a more scholarly turn Necronomicon Press.
The latter has a wonderful illustrated edition of Innsmouth for all of $7.50 plus shipping.
The Shadow of Innsmouth is sort of on-topic, in that the protagnist, a scholarly antiquarian, ends up in Innsmouth because he's too short of cash to purchase a railway ticket from Newburyport to Arkham (Salem). So instead he learns that for a lot less money, he can take a local bus to Innsmouth (Ipswich) and there catch another local bus to Arkham.
Now that's a scenario most railfans can feel for.
Innsmouth is a deteriorated seaside town. Lovecraft's descriptions and details are wonderful--you can picture Innsmouth, and it has a real flavor of old New England towns.
You can read the story for free here.
As you probably know, "The Colour Out Of Space" was filmed as "Die Monster Die !" (1966) with Nick Adams and Boris Karloff. I saw it with my Dad at the RKO Madison Theater in Ridgewood, as an end-of-summer treat before starting sixth grade. When Karloff, as Nahum Whitley, said of the meteor :
"I thought it was a gift from heaven !"
the entire audience burst out laughing !
If the question is where you are most likely to get mugged on the off hours, the award probably goes to the Framingham line of the Commuter Rail, once you're off the train. If you are calculating probabilities, you'll probably find that the Ashmont branch is one of the safest: even though the number of muggings is high, the ridership is also high, so the probability of a mugging happening to you is actually pretty low.
By the way, the sketchyest neighbourhood is the one that the E-branch of the Green Line goes through: Mission Hill.
I actually know very little about crime statistics in these areas, and I have seen shady people on all lines, including the Cambridge end of the Red Line. In fact, I personally had a drunk removed from a train between Davis and Alewife -- or at least I ensured that the train did not go back in service with the drunk heading back into town.
AEM7
Personally, I wouldn't ride the Orange Line past Ruggles (heading to Forest Hills, though there's talk of expanding the line to *at least* Hyde Park, which would be fine) at night (at least not alone), but once in the city, I've been on some of the latest trains through North Station (north of NS is fine).
I've traveled on the (2) up to 149th and back, alone, at 2 a.m. before. No problems. You're going to be fine if you keep to yourself!
If you make yourself a target then YOU make it unsafe.
This is what I live for...
I presume that NYCT meant that they will be wasting time and money replacing an escalator that may never ever be used again.
And then...
Maybe if they are building handicapped access or something, that escalator will go someplace else, such as to the mezinine or to the street or something.
Just 'cause it *used-to-go-there* doesn't proff that that is what it will do when it reopens.
Elias
SubTalkers have raised the issue, but I don't know of any official public recognition of the issue by the MTA. Maybe it is in one of the documents online? Maybe the MTA has already responded to someone about this? I just don't know.
If we get a few million from FEMA, and I believe that there were some special exemptions to allow FEMA monies to be used for the general improvement of downtown infrastructure, then the result is that New York is not quite so screwed as before!
John
I did not attend the public meetings, so I do not know.
Although somebody should realize there's a major concern, perhaps nobody actually does.
I am reasonably confident that the MTA has figured out and made note of the TPH values for the current station and for the future station. Putting these two numbers side by side, I'm sure they can see if the values are different, and if they are, then by how much. Since the 2-track station is the current plan (AFAIK), then the MTA must consider the TPH difference not significant/important enough to warrant further design changes.
Someone pointed out that NYCT can always terminate alternate trains at Rector and run them through the loop in the manner of BB/City Hall, i.e., no mandatory removal of passengers.
That way there's no tph reduction at South Ferry; in fact, there's an increase.
If in the future you notice any suspicious material on the roadbed, update us at your earliest convenience.
I see....do you work for the track-cleanliness division of the MTA?
I was shocked when I saw how clean track 2 was. It looked brand new! Not sure about tracks M and 1 though.
No I am not employed by the MTA nor do I have professional degrees is mass transit facility management. It's more of spiritual calling. I seem drawn to the 4 D's. Decay, deterioration, desperation and detritus.
I hope we see more of these.
I've found the esclators more frequently working of late.
Right after the Lynbrook (although, it might be Freeport, I'm having a brain fart) station, going west, there is an old red brick building, but only the skeleton remains. The building is gothic looking, and perhaps might have been a church. It looks like a good setting for a spooky movie. Anyone know what building this was?
Also, right before you go into Jamaica, going west, there's an old car on top of a building with a sign that only has an AOL address on it. Anyone know what that's all about?
I think it had some connection to the water supply.
CG
Not sure what the car represents, but I have seen it many times. It is around Hillside Avenue off the main line.
wayne
I heard somewhere, maybe here, that the numbers and letters before the aol.com represent a ham radio call sign.
The format of letters and numbers is consistent with my former neighbor's license plate -- which was his ham radio call sign.
For whatever that's worth...
Not sure that was the indended purpose, but it was going to be saved, then some kids got in & torched it. Think it's unsafe now & just a matter of time before it falls or is torn down.
CG
How about a 50's style B thriller about memory problems :
"ATTACK OF THE BRAIN FARTS" !!!
You may know the expression, "Constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth".
If you are new, welcome to SubTalk !
For a bonus, what are they used for now ?
They are in Rockville Centre & Freeport and are now used to generate electricy for the respective towns.
Adam
I was a bit lucky one day, I bought a ticket from a machine at Fordham last Sunday evening and boarded the GCT-bound train. No C/R aboard asked for my ticket so I have one I can re-use again.
David, that happens often at the Fordham staion. Many times I've gotten free rides to GCT... once on a peak train!
The best day I ever had on a train was when I got a free ride from Penn to Islip... they didn't check my ticket on either train!
Unless you meant Central Islip on the Ronkonkoma line which is direct from Penn.
The poor college student was not going to complain :)
Remember... it's in the TUNA.
Bill "Newkirk"
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! Memorieeeeeees!
That dude is sitting where I was sitting *TRYING* to get me some zzz's...
I can still see the STREAKS down the car bottom there... OMG.
That's what the dual-mode engines are for.
Mark
CG
Got on at Penn.
Ticket never punched on the way to Jamaica.
Ticket guy came around after Jamaica, but forgot about me because the person across the aisle from me was making a fuss.
Changed at Babylon.
No one came for my ticket at Babylon.
Got off at Islip.
Free ride. :)
And by the way, diesels DO go into Penn, but only a select few. For instance, the 7:10 peak weekday westbound train from Islip. Check the train schedule if you don't believe me. It's also an odd train because it goes to Hunterspoint Ave first, whereas most Montauk/Babylon trains don't. And remember, they're dual-mode.
I took the 7:10 once and it was nice not having to change at Babylon or Jamaica.
Historically if you got on an eastbound train east of Flushing or Jamaica, it was often for free. If you'd already bought a ticket, you could use it on the return trip. If there was no way to buy a ticket at the stop you got on (for many years such stations as Murray Hill, Broadway, New Hyde Park, East Williston, Carle Place had limited office hours, no office, or no machine), you'd also get away scot free provided the conductor didn't come around.
They do come around on connecting shuttles originating at Valley Stream, Hicksville, Huntington and Babylon- and sometimes on eastbound through trains out of Mineola. But otherwise, there seemed to be very lax eastbound enforcement after the post-Jamaica ticket check- or after Flushing on the Port Washington line.
At least that WAS the case before last year when ticket machines were installed at every station. It's been said that conductors have been ordered to check the ticket of EVERY passenger getting on, no matter where. I did witness a rather nasty skirmish between a dedicated conductor and some teenagers who got on a Long Beach-bound train at Island Park. They insisted it's always FREE. I could see how they got that idea. It's terribly unfair when rules are enforced.
As recently as summer 2002, conductors were pretty lax. I was able to recycle THREE uncollected tickets:
-On a late-afternoon weekday ride from Long Beach to Brooklyn, the conductor never came around after Jamaica. So the ticket, having only one punch, was still valid within the city zone.
-On a mid-morning weekday ride from Great Neck to Port Wash (don't ask!), they never came around.
-On a weekend afternoon ride from Queens Village to Hempstead, they never came around.
I killed off all three tickets on one Saturday in September thusly: I drove to Valley Stream and used the Great Neck-Port Wash ticket on the Valley Stream-West Hempstead shuttle. After walking to Hempstead station, I used the Queens Village-Hempstead ticket to Jamaica. Then I used the partially punched Long Beach-City Zone ticket on a train to Penn. After bumming around Manhattan, I took the E train to Jamaica Center and N4 to Valley Stream.
It took a lot of machinations and schedule analysis, but I did it. With this supposed strict enforcement of ticket punching, it may no longer be possible.
Kew Gardens-Forest Hills, No C/R never came and that was where I got most of the free rides
Kew Gardens-Woodside, It was a 8:23 AM train from Kew Gardens going towards and the C/R was comming towards the car I was in and I was getting off at Woodside anyway
Kew Gardens-Penn Station, I missed the 3:32 PM to Penn Station(Comes from Long Beach) and I brought a Round Trip Disabled($5.50) ticket and I got on the 3:37 PM to Penn Station(Comes from Babylon) and the C/R was around but the C/R passes right by me 2 times but never punched my ticket.
I have used my R/T Ticket on one of the days I was off from school on a weekday on the 9:14 AM to Penn Station(Comes from Babylon) and paid the diffence between the Disabled Fare($2.75) and the Peak Fare($5.50) and I still have one more trip left on the ticket
I thought diesel engines aren't allowed to go into Penn.
Koi
Definitions:
1) Locomotive = a machine on wheels that pulls other cars on the rails.
2) Engine = a machine that converts a fuel source to a mechanical force.
3) Diesel Engine = an engine that burns diesel fuel usuall in a reciprocating engine.
4) Motors = an electric motor converting electic power to tractive effort.
5) Diesel Locomotive = a machine on wheels that has a diesel engine as its power plant.
6) Diesel Eletric Locomotive = See No. 5 above. The engine generates electricity used to turn motors that move the locomotive.
7) Electric Locomotive = a machine on wheels that uses electricity as its power source.
8) Dual Mode Locomotive = a machine that can use either a diesel engine or an electrical source to turn its motors.
Answer to your statement...
This is not true. They are not allowed to run their prime movers (diesel engines), but there is no ban on the locomotives.
The Dual Mode locomotives use their diesel engines out in the open, but before entering the tunnels the diesels are turned off, and the locomotive draws its power from the thrid rail, just like any M1 or M7 consist. Hotel power is distributed to the consist from the engine, the cars do not have independent third rail pick-ups.
****
Ask me the time, and I will tell you how to built a clock.
Elias
When the fellow was askeed he said that his wallet was in "his other pants". She told him that RR policy was that he will be put off at the next stop, which he figured was JAM.
Wrong this time ! Next was ENY. She held the doors open and said "where's your ticket". Again its in "my other pants". She said you have to get off. He starts yapping at her.
She gets fed up and says "I'm not taking any more of your STUFF, get off the train". He gets off and the doors close. She turns to some of the regulars and with a big grin on her face she says "I bet you thought I was going to use the other word that starts with S". The whole car was in hysterics.
Can a ticket agent upgrade an off-peak ticket to a peak ticket with payment of the difference?
Any train scheduled to depart its NYC terminus (Penn, HP, LIC, or Flatbush) before 4pm is off-peak, correct? I want to ride an M-1 from Flatbush to Jamaica after work one day, but if no M-1's show up before 4, I'll end up on a peak train.
2. Check with a ticket agent or call LIRR customer assistance.
3. Yes any train that departs before 4 PM from a city terminal is off-peak NOTE: If one train departs before 4 PM, say the 3:58 from Penn, it is off peak on the OTHER trains even if the Flatbush or HP train departs AFTER 4. The 4:03 Friday-only Cannoball from HP is Off-Peak because one of the connecting trains at Jamaica is the 3:58 from Penn (all times PM).
1) The trainman might be too lazy to step you up, and will accept the off-peak ticket without charging extra, or...
2) You will be stepped-up to the published peak fare, no penalty whatsoever, or...
3) The train will be so crowded, that a trainman won't even make it through the car to see your ticket, and you might end up riding for "free".
No. This is what Newkirk Plaza David said:
You would have to pay the difference between the off-peak ticket you posses and the on board peak fare charged.
And what he said sounds right. Here is an example, with hypothetical fares:
Fares from Flatbush to Jamaica
Off-Peak: $3.29
Off-Peak purchased on-board: $4.50
Peak: $5.09
Peak purchased on-board: $7.89
So if you have an Off-Peak ticket that you bought from an agent for $3.29 and you present it to a C/R of a Peak train, he will make you pay an additional $4.50, which is $7.89 - $3.29
And that's the scary gist!
So I pay $1.75
Are we speaking of an RT off peak?
Do you also upgrade the AM portion to a one-way when you do this.
That is 1) can you even buy a round trip peak ticket?
and if you buy a R/T off Peak, and then break it by traveling one leg peak, does the upgrade include a figure for changing the AM from R/T to One Way?
Inquisitive mindes with little to do want to know...
Years ago there was a special Sunday round trip fare on the LIRR.
CG
:-) Andrew
Ditto if you have a ticket that doesn't get you far enough. They charge the extra without penalty.
Robert
It's good to hold a door,
But not on the subway.
I guess that would be the current card.
Finally, the end of those bland, boring cards !
Bill "Newkirk"
"This station is Brooklyn Bridge. This is the last stop on this train. All passengers must leave the train here."
If City Hall is mainline track that is legally accessible, why have this message?
You may stay on if you wish, and if a crewman asks, just say nicely, I wanted to ride the loop and see if I could see the old City Hall station.
Usually they will recognize you as a rabid railfan and will allow you to do this. Some may think that you are a terrorist, and will soil their diapers.
It is easy enough to get off, and to wait for the next train.
Elias
P.S. On my 6 train down to BB, the train stopped and was held in Worth St. for awhile;-)
Anyhow, the answer to your question has been discussed and debated in great lengths in the past. Just look in the archives. There is no simple answer, and everyone has an opinion.
The announcement is, "This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train. Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
No "must."
This is the same exact announcement that's made at all terminals on all of the new trains. Ride a 6 to Pelham Bay Park and you'll hear the same announcement. What happens if you ignore it and stay on the train? In most cases, you'll sit there a few minutes, the starting bell will ring, and the train will head back towards Manhattan, and nobody will bat an eyelash at you. Some trains are actually taken out of service, and then you'll hear an explicit announcement that the train is out of service. What happens at either end of the 2 or L? Same thing.
The announcement is addressed at the average subway passenger, who is actually trying to get somewhere. Not many passengers on the 6 want to ride downtown to Brooklyn Bridge, loop back to Brooklyn Bridge, and return uptown. In case anybody on the train thinks that it continues further (a particular problem at Brooklyn Bridge, where the line as a whole does continue further), the announcement informs them that they're mistaken.
I ride the Q local to Brighton Beach every morning. After reaching BB, the train relays, so passengers are required to leave the train. The announcement there is very different. One typical announcement (I don't know what the Blue Book says) goes something like, "No passengers, please. This train is now out of customer service." When have you heard anything like that at Brooklyn Bridge? (Of course, if a particular 6 train really is going out of service, you'll hear such an announcement, and if you're not paying attention, someone will find you and kick you off the train.)
(as much as I love them) this is NOT the case at 242.
If you stay on, you'll know you're sitting in a yard-bound
train if the doors CLOSE (no announcements) within 10 seconds
of opening, and if you're still aboard, the (platformed) C/R will have to
key you OUT.... that is IF* the train doesn't start moving
BEFORE he/she is able to spot you still inside.
IIRC, they used to flick the interior lights on-off-on-off-on
to indicate a NIS train.... with this absence, it's best to
place yourself at the doorway to see if others are boarding the
train you're on... otherwise it's 240 for you!
This is more common occurence in non-rush hours (when the 9's are being yarded).
Does EVERY (6) that goes through the loop enter northbound service after? Are there ever any trains that go through the loop, but do not go into revenue service for the return trip? I'd hate to stow away on a loop-bound train that was going to be taken out of service, and then get in trouble with the TA after I end up in the yard with the train crew.
Is there even anything to see at City Hall anymore? I remember hearing that what few lights are left aren't even kept on anymore, so the whole station must be dark, except for that one skylight.
for example
Wayne
The answer is: The R44/46's came equipped with motorized rollsigns which were controlled from the cab. With wiring already in place, installation of the digital signs during the R44 and R46 GOH program was easy. The R68/68A's did not have this contingency in place. Let's remember that although newer, the R68's were technically simple from the beginning and a lot less sophisticated than the R44/46, a necessity after all the problems the "new tech" R44/46's had in the 1970's.
Example: Jamaica Center, 145th St, Manhattan, 21 St-Queensbridge.
The TA had no choice but to give the R44/R46s new rollsigns. I don't know why they chose digital, since the R40s and R42s, when GOH'd, receive the same concept in rollsigns as the R68/R68As.
Also, read my post #597704, I went a little more in detail there.
By the way, how you doing?
Fine, thanks. Coming to this Sunday's MOD R9 trip? It'll be rolling on MY turf this time....LOL.
If you remember the rollsigns before GOH, these cars were assigned to certain routes. When operating on those certain routes, the signs were correct (somewhat). Whenever the TA had to, on short notice, shift these cars to another line, you always notice that the rollsigns were completely blank.
Remember when the "A" started receiving R44s in 1977. the interior rollsigns were in black in white-not in color like the R44 rollsigns on the "D", "E" and "F". That was because the rollsigns on the batch of R44s that came from the "E" and "F" (100-259) did not include the "A"-they only included routes that operated out of Jamaica Yard for the most part. As a matter of fact, the TA actually printed strip maps on LARGE stickys, then stuck them on different part of the rollsign.
If you looked close enough, you could actually see:
1. Air bubbles forming in the rollsign
2. The Far Rockaway's rollsign sticky was pasted over the "A" Round Robin Shuttle rollsign.
Evidently, that was the only "A" on the original rollsign.
Now, when the R44s from the "D" (260-399) began appearing on the "A" in 1981, they contained the original colored rollsigns.
My favorite of her subway photos is the 21st St on the G.
21st St. station Queens(G)
Of course, some believe
www.forgotten-ny.com
scenes are similarly uninteresting. Just a matter of taste.
I should get a grant for my 9 year old son to do this. A great way to earn extra momey for college.
--Mark
Funny, Ben's Meat-O-Mat is on 46th Street, half a block away from the 46th Street station, and it closed a while ago. The pet shop next door took over the space. But the Meat-O-Mat sign is still up there.
Anyone ever read that? My sister just got assigned that for school (7th grade) and it at least sounds fairly interesting. Just wondering if anyone's ever read it.
The opening pages have some very realistic scenes of his final day operating a train, before he descends into the world of the homeless. His life crosses paths with a lawyer and his psychiatric social worker wife.
I found it a very realistic and grim book. I don't know of anyone who has read the book.
Chuck
No, except for the upcoming R142S order by Kawasaki.
Conjecture, your honor...
The R-160 contract stipulates that not only must the R-160 cars be able to operate in a train with R-143 cars, they must be aesthetically identical. One must not be able to tell which car class one is riding in just by looking.
David
I think the R160 and R143 will have some difference between them. Of course I never seen the contract that was written out so god knows that the MTA's going to do.
wayne
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Why don't we just wait till they're built...?
:-) Andrew
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You write a new contract, it gets a new number.
Elias
If you want a REAL redbird operating on the "A" (Not in service, of course), look below:
This shot was taken at the B. 60th Street Station of the Far Rockaway "A".
Did it wander off the end of the Flatbush Ave station then take the Marine Parkway Bridge? Did it climb aboard the Q35? Was it looking for some time off at the beach?
:-) Andrew
LOL. I guess it wanted to check out new retirement home it's going to be moving into shortly.
Seriously, judging by the yellow and black stripes, it was converted into a work train. By the way, the TA went on and dumped these cars into the ocean as well.
#3 West End Jeff
http://photos.transitgallery.com/far-rockaway-a-train-albums
Once you get to my page, look in the Far Rockaway A Train album. I also have 13 other albums as well.
Were those R27's GE or Westinghouse?
I do remember pre-GOH R27/30's on the B into 1987, but I don't recall any "redbird" B consists.
R-32.
R-32.
September 1987 was an odd month for car assignments, since so many R32's/40's and 42's were out for their GOH. I've done this before, but I'll list the weirdness I witnessed that month:
- R30's on the Broadway R (they were common on the Nassau Street R)
- R10's on the K/B
- R68's on the F
- R46's on the Astoria N
The first three involved a couple of trainsets for a short period of time (1-2 weeks). The latter one was different. From Labor Day to approx. Halloween the N from Astoria was about 1/3 R46.
I'd collapse on the spot if I ever saw a photo of an R30 with brown diamond R signs.
I'm not sure, but by the time the R42s received these rollsigns, the "R" and "N" had already swapped northern terminals, thus all R42s were removed from the "R" so I don't think the yellow "R" that was on the end rollsigns never saw service on the "R".
Pre-GOH consists with a YELLOW R? WTF?????
That was probably rare on the Astoria N, but I remember the R46's all the time when the N still ran to Continental Ave. What did the N run when the N/R switch first took place? There was a perion around the early 90's when the N was basically 100% R68, but of course that is when it ran to Astoria. I don't thinke the N ever ran them on Queens Blvd.
I expected one of two things when the switch occured:
1. The routes would keep their equipment
2. They would exchange equipment
When the switch happened, the "R" overnight became 100% graffiti-free with the R32s and R46s. The "N" however got all of the grunged up R32s that were on the "R", but not any of the few graffiti-free R32s the "R" had. In fact, that was the only thing trains the "N" got from the "R". Instead of getting all of the other cars that I mentioned was on the "R", the "N" got R68s instead. This was before the "N" and "R" went to 10-car trains, so the "N" was running 8-car R32s and 6-car R68s.
I never rode any N train of that length on a weekday at any time in 1985-1987. Believe me, that's something I'd notice.
The Southern Division "B" train in general ran anything that Coney Island had available. I have seen R16s, R27/30s Unrebuilt and rebuilt, R32s, R40s, R40Ms, R42, R68s.
There was a couple of times when the "F" was running R68s on it. I heard that the "E" ran them once or twice, but I must admit, I myself have not witness the R68s on the "E".
Back then, the Broadway BMT was the best line in the city in my opinion, because you never new what was going to arrive on what line.
I believe you 100%. I'm just saying that I never saw them myself.
One thing you have to remember, during 1985-88, which was during the major GOH, anything operating out of Coney Island was liable to run anything.
Yup. Of course the Astoria R takes the cake for diverse car assignments. In the 6 months leading up to the N/R swap of 1987, I personally rode R16's, R27-30's, R32's, R40's R40M's, and R42's. You could stand at Times Sq in the middle of the afternoon and not see 2 similiar R train consists back-to-back.
I remember for a week, the "R" operated a 10-car R38 GOH. It used to arrive at 34th St the same time everyday (I forgot what time), but I'll give you three guesses as to who was on it on about 4 occasions. The car that I always rode was 4009.
Damn. Sorry I missed that. That's one car type that I never saw on the Astoria R.
The Southern Division "B" train in general ran anything that Coney Island had available. I have seen R16s, R27/30s Unrebuilt and rebuilt, R32s, R40s, R40Ms, R42, R68s.
I used to ride the one scheduled R16 run on the B every time I "railfanned" (cut school) in the autumn of 1986. How we made it over the Manhattan Bridge still boggles the imagination.
There was a couple of times when the "F" was running R68s on it. I heard that the "E" ran them once or twice, but I must admit, I myself have not witness the R68s on the "E".
I witnessed the R68's on the F, but didn't ride them. I never saw them on the E.
Back then, the Broadway BMT was the best line in the city in my opinion, because you never new what was going to arrive on what line
For you younger railfans who are used to monotonous car assignments, let me give you a glimpse of what you would have seen on a typical weekday afternoon at Times Sq in 11/86:
Yellow B: R16/R27/R30/R32/R40/R40M
Yellow D: R68/R40/R40M/R42
N: R32/R46
Q: R32/R40/R40M/R42
R: R16/R27/R30/R32/R40/R40M/R42
And if you wandered over to the IRT, you'd see:
1: R62A
2: R33 (overhauled)
3: R17/R21/R22/R26/R28/R29
4: R62/R26/R28/R29/R36
5: Same as #3
6: R62A/R26/R28/R29
7: R36WF (overhauled)
Definatley a more interesting railfanning experience, if you didn't mind the grafitti.
They wasn't on the Astoria "R", they were on the Forest Hills "R"-this was in 1988, but before the bridge opened.
You are way off on the IRT assignments as of 11/86. They were as follows:
1. R62As
2. R26s, R28s, R29s
3. R17s (6700s), R22s (7400-7449), R33s (9200-9305), R36MLs
4. R62s
5. R21s (7100-7149), R22s (7500s), R33s (8804-9099)
6. R17s (6800s), R22s (7450-7499), R29s (85 & 8600s), R33s (9100s)
7. R17s (65 & 6600s), R33WF Singles, R36WFs
S. R17s (65 & 6600s-white exterior, two-tone blue interior-graffiti free) or R62s-not sure when the switchover took place.
Let me explain a few things. The "3" didn't start receiving R62As until the beginning of 1987. The overhauled R33s were not operating until 1987. Eventhough the "5" had redbirds in 1986, they were nothing more than the R33s painted red. In fact, some were, along with a couple of R22s, given the green treatment that the R10s received. Also, with the R62s displacing the R17s on the "4", most 6500s and 6600s were scrapped, but some started appearing all over from 1985 until 1988. You had a very few on the "5" and some were given the redbird treatment and wound up on the "7" while the R33WF singles underwent their GOH.
The "6" started receiving the GOH R29s and R62A simultaneously in the Summer of '86-delivery of these car classes were not complete, so, there were plenty of the old timers and unrebuilts to go around as of 11/86.
Holler back with any questions or comments.
1. R14, R15, R21s (7150-7299), R22s (7300-7399), R29s (8600s), R36WF, R36ML
"2" amd "5" shared trains for the most part-they were:
R22s (7500-7749), R28 (7900-7959), R29s (8700-8803), R33s (8804-9099, maybe low 9100s)-that's as close as I could get, I'm sure somebody will clarify.
3. R14s, R22s (7400s), don't know the rest
4. R17s (6500-6799), R21s (7050-7099). I remember this, because the "4" was the only IRT line with absolutely no a/c at all.
6. R17s (6800s), R22s (7450-7499?), R33s (9100?-9305), don't know the rest.
7. R33WFs/R36WFs
Somebody else will fill in the blanks.
That I know. They were the last place I saw R17/21/22 cars in large numbers.
The overhauled R33s were not operating until 1987. Eventhough the "5" had redbirds in 1986, they were nothing more than the R33s painted red.
I thought the R33's were overhaued earlier than the 26/28/29. Either way, the entire #2 was "redbird" by 11/86.
In fact, some were, along with a couple of R22s, given the green treatment that the R10s received.
I remember/rode that train.
Also, with the R62s displacing the R17s on the "4", most 6500s and 6600s were scrapped, but some started appearing all over from 1985 until 1988. You had a very few on the "5" and some were given the redbird treatment and wound up on the "7" while the R33WF singles underwent their GOH.
I remember quite a few R17/21/22 cars on the #5 in late 1986, one which I was on that went OOS at Intervale Ave in 10/86, forcing this 14 yo white boy off the train in the middle of the Bronx, scared sh!itless.
The "6" started receiving the GOH R29s and R62A simultaneously in the Summer of '86-delivery of these car classes were not complete, so, there were plenty of the old timers and unrebuilts to go around as of 11/86.
Yes, I remember both new, overhauled and grafitti covered #6 trains at that time.
I have always assumed that the "redbirds" were painted that color during their GOH, not before. Coupled with the mistaken belief I had that the R33 was GOH'ed before the R26/28/29's and you understand my messed up memories. I was just beginning to railfan in early 1986 and I never payed attention to car numbers.
And what happened? You survived, got over it with no scars and now living happily ever after.
I have always assumed that the "redbirds" were painted that color during their GOH, not before. Coupled with the mistaken belief I had that the R33 was GOH'ed before the R26/28/29's and you understand my messed up memories. I was just beginning to railfan in early 1986 and I never payed attention to car numbers.
Not even a problem. That is what this board is for-to learn about transportation-to give AND receive knowledge. Nobody know EVERYTHING about the subways. You learn something new everyday here. I sure learned that GOH R30s were running on the "R"-before I read your post, I had no idea.
At the time, I felt I had just completed a tour in 'Nam. I was far more ignorant back then.
Not even a problem. That is what this board is for-to learn about transportation-to give AND receive knowledge. Nobody know EVERYTHING about the subways. You learn something new everyday here. I sure learned that GOH R30s were running on the "R"-before I read your post, I had no idea
If you know everything, you need to get a life....LOL
Hehehe. I remember riding in the early-mid 80's in different areas, and the same thing happened to me. I remember one of the first times I rode the subway "alone" (without adults). My friend and I decided to take a detour on the J to the A and then go to Manhattan. At the time, my "alone" subway riding consisted of a few stations at the northern end of the M line. Anywhere else, I was always with adults.
I remember getting off at Myrtle-Broadway for the first time, and being scared sh!tless also (remember it was so much worse back then) waiting for the J. The ride between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway had me terrified, but I was at the same time glued to the side windows. It looked like Berlin after the war. It was so desolate between those stations that even now it amazed me that anyone would have used the stations in between, as it looked like EVERTHING was either abandoned or burnt. Anyway, it was so much fun, even if scary for a 14 year old at the same time. My mother would probably have killed me if she knew we were alone on the subway, and in East New York no less.
It may have even been the first seed to be planted for me, with the J, especially the Broadway El, becoming one of my favorite lines to railfan:
You're almost there. The R42s were the bulk of the Northern "D" with a handful of R40m mixed in. The Northern "B" was entirely R42s from beginning until end from what I remember (I've heard talk of green R10s appearing on this line, but I never witnessed it).
Around the beginning of 1988, the "D" started receiving graffiti-free R32s. I definately remember this because unlike all of the other graffiti-free R32s that operated on the Southern "B" and "D", as well as the "G", "N", "Q" and "R" which had orange tags under the car numbers, the R32s on the Northern "D" had green tags. Then the R68As started to appear. Man they were beautiful-a hell of alot better than the R68s and fast as hell. Then the TA had to screw them up later on down the line.
(tongue planted firmly in cheek)
MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, I was just fooling with him. I took the photos. There were some "redbirds" in the consist, and the Mets car was one of them. It was very oht that day, so the Mets car didn't have anyone hanging out in it. The fans/AC was broken, and the windows only olpen with that familiar little "crack". It was a sauna in that car.
What is this pre-trip lecture they always have that I never hear? Only once have I ever been told to keep my head inside of the window, and that was at nearly the end of a trip.
Ahhh, much better.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The Van Courtlandt Madman
#9582 on a B-div. line as the LEAD CAR???
I thought only the R33WF's had the dual trip cocks. If that is the case, why this?
#3 West End Jeff
Now, to why you see red cars in that picture: those are r-27/r-30's (same basic cars, just two different contract numbers). Indeed, they were painted red - just like the IRT cars they mimic, but it's the IRT cars that are affectionately known as 'redbirds' being that there's so many more of them than the 550 some-odd r-27/30's. The IRT had a much larger herd. The 27/30's were only painted that way in the twilight of their lives - and they died young - only 33 yrs. old!
R-32.
The R27s (8020-8249) didn't even make 30 years. They were built in 1960, but scrapped in 1989-that's 29 years. The unrebuilt R30s (8412-8569) were built in 1961, but scrapped in 1990, again, 29 years. The rebuilt R30s (8250-8349) and R30As (8350-8411) were built in 1961, but lasted until 1993-32 years in service.
R-32.
When you get a chance, check out my pictures I just uploaded at transitgallery.com.
The URL is:
photos.transitgallery.com/far-rockaway-a-train-albums
NJT doesn't seem to put such connecting info on their website.
Thanks,
CG
http://yp.yahoo.com/
I ended up driving after all -- traffic wasn't bad, so it took less time than the train would have taken. Of course, I could have gotten some work done on the train -- they sort of frown on reading reports while driving, though.
CG
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27089
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27090
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27091
AEM7
wayne
A train keyed by a red signal. Didn't drive on sight (too fast).
Hit an other train. Derailed and some cars fell of the elevated and hit
a truck with flammable material loaded.
Anyone know what this is/was used for? I thought it might be a money collection platform, since TA HQ is not far from that station.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't understand it, stand outside Jay street and see the tons (litterly) of armor cars with 3 people each. This replaced a train operator and maybe a max of 6 revenue protection agents and two old subway cars. The man hours alone now spent to pick up reciepts has got to be mindboggling, I don't see how they save money with the man hour expense and the extra maintenance on all the armored cars. Heck when a collector train gave up the ghost you just got two more old subway cars, now they have to spend bucks on a new armor car.
Yet it would be built by MTA or by MTA/PATH/NJT etc etc.
Yet it would accomodate freight cars.
Looing at the prices charged for your average 5 axel tractor trailer, a $100. per car toll is not unusual...
Therefore if such a freight connection would be built the TOLL to freight RRs would be about $5000 for a 50 car train. If there were only four such trains a day, that toll would be $20,000 / day or 7.3 million dollars per year, or 2.1 Billion over an amortized 30 year bond issue.
You could build a lot of tunnel for that price.
Elias
The alternative, running a train up to Albany and back down on the other side is much more costly than this. This tariff is a bargain any way you look at it.
The way it would probably work is that NY&A RR will probably be the bridge railroad either for delivery to Long Island for for forwarding into the Bronx via the Hell Gate Bridge. (This way other freight roads would not need to invest in electric locomotives.
It is a fair Fare for what it does.
Elias
The current estimate (perhaps an underestimate) is $1.5 billion for a one-track tunnel from Greenville Yards to Brooklyn, raising the bridges to accomodate TOFC on the Bay Ridge Branch, and an inter-modal yard in Maspeth. For a two-track tunnel, it's $2.5 billion.
If it really is that low, it might be worth it, although I am suspicious. The jobs created figures -- about 7,000 for New York City, 20,000 overall, were reasonable. Of course, that's rounding error in the city's economy. But if the time spent in traffic does go down, the cost of goods might go down slightly also.
That being said, there is no reason why it cannot carry an very great amount of frieght traffic.
Elias
In the meantime, please send him messages of support, he needs us subtalkers now.
I'm actually happy about it though. I can't wait for more national news regarding Street's indictment. The bug's and the city's dying population are old news nationally so far.
I found another positive though, now whenever I spot someone who's from philly(if their wearing a Philly PD hat or whatever), I got four more years of going, "Hey, how's Street doing!?" That's always great. I always enjoy the P-O'd ranting and raving.
As much as I dislike this place, this is how you keep a tax base
Not this | or this
90% of those "wealthy" suburbianites lived in the city 10 years ago, and people from pittsburgh to scranton aren't impressed with Eddie or his tax hikes either. That's what they get for listening to people who didn't live in the city promoting that one as governor.
Philadelphia 2008: population 700,000
Yeah, that whole "Main Line" thing is all new. Oh and suburban sprall isn't happening anywhere else.
Besides, the bone of contention is the city wage tax and you pay that if you work in the city, not live there. Corporate handouts never work. All you end up with is a cash strapped city and some low wage jobs before the company skips town with the profits to take advantage of some other naive` city. You attract more flies with honey than you do with a crime ridden cesspool. If the only thning a city has to offer is a cash bribe, you'll attract the sort of companies that only care about cash bribes.
Philly dosen't need to cut taxes to attract bussiness. Its cheep compared to NYC, is midway b/t DC and NYC, great air and rail service, an extensive Suburban transit system, a deepwater port, etc, etc. The city needs to keep crime and blight down, attract good cultural and service oppurtunities and provide a high quality of city services. Going into debt and slashing budgets is only going to turn the city into a crap hole.
Frankly I could care less is Street is taking care of his own. At least he is from the city and cares about the city. Katz is the embodyment of the Republican Greed that only thinks about Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.
Say what you will, but the city has weathered the past 4 years pretty darn well. They revamped the mall, built two new stadiums, re-opened Chestnut St, built that Kimmel Center, etc, etc. The best part is that there has been a serious and sustained effort to reduce blight and drug dealing in the neighborhoods. As a white suburbanite from Jersey I'll never see those imporvements, but unlike Katz and his followers I am capable of considering the needs of people other than myself.
As a Jerseyite, what do you contribute to Street's Philadelphia? Do you pay the wage tax? Does your New Jersey State legislature bear any of the burden of Philadelphia? Do you do community work there, or work in advocacy there?
In your last paragraph, that's mostly Rendell's projects Street took the credit for. He did, however, give some of his buddies preference and kickbacks to tow abandonded cars off the streets, etc. SOmething that shouldn't have been a problem and Rendell should've done including hiring cops too. The blight and crime's been creeping up into the other neighborhoods of no anti-blight concentration over the years(easy-pickins). You can't rob an empty crack-house. So those neighbhorhoods are turning into the ones Street's trying to "save".
Still working backwards, paragraph two taxes. They shouldn't be having any problem attracting anyone, except all the business that does move in, moves in outside the city, or established business' move outside the city. It's much cheaper without the "complicated city tax structure". Plus with the wage tax, if i live in the city and work outside the city, i still pay, if i live outside the city and work in the city, I still pay a tax. If that's the worst tax they have, i Don't know, and I doubt it is. But it's expensive paying the $80k a year salary of a high school drop out to run the PHA and still give her federally subsidized housing.
"Corporate handouts never work"
I used to agree, and I learned the same thing in public school. But what I see elsewhere is everyones fighting for the business. If your city doesn't do it, the suburbs do, the city won't get the business. It can also be in the form of grants to make repairs to your business to make the area more livable. Scripps institute of California was looking for another building location. Had a couple bidders, chose West Palm Beach Florida. The state's giving $350mil as an incentive(I think this was money saved from a federal grant). Supposed to attract 40,000 other jobs and companies that center around these bigger organizations. I can't see huge buildings moving every 10 years. I guess it's iffy since there's so many types of incentives and varibles. But if you dont' want to play the game, you'll have detriot(which I read an opt-ed piece, and I couldnt' beleive it sounded exactly like philly).
The quality of life is gone. It's one thing to support a city structure of 2.5 million when you have less than 1.4 million, but I can't move back now unless I join a gang or deal drugs. If they still have whole city blocks of houses that have For Sale signs up, I'd have to buy the whole block and add a fence. I hope they convict the SOB during his second term.
I was somewhat indifferent to the election because whomever got in the SAME OLD SHIT would have still be going on, the difference between Street and Katz was that the party affiliation of the political hacks getting the city jobs, al though Katz would have tried some half-assed reforms. And watching the GOP take over such organizations as the Convention Center Authority, and the Parking Authority, I got the impression that these people had the attitude "that's it our turn to feed at the patronage trough", so a GOP takeover of City Hall would not have really done any difference.
What's really needed is that we should try to get rid of the professional politicians, and put people who really care about moving this city forward. But do we think that's going to happen?
As a non-connected human being, I would say this is the largest problem:
" but the lousy housing stock, and many crime-ridden neighborhoods kind of forced me to move to NJ"
"I think NJT service pales in comparison to SEPTA's but such things as the lowlifes that ride that system"
I wonder if this is the big draw for the regional rail, also a reason why I was orignally against light-rail in other cities.
Have you heard the story that since the republican state took over the parking authority, the cost to run and payroll actually went UP millions of dollars? Least if your going to be crooks, keep the place livable.
The <6> does not exist going into manhattan, instead you get ", This is a manhattan bound 6 train" with a (6) bullet.
The problem that affects certain R142 4 and 5 trains has hit the 6, the stuck borough problem " this is a manhattan bound 6 train, the next. Stop is. 96 street", which corresponds to the 5 train that always says this " This is a Bronx bound 5 express train. The next .Stop is. Baychester avenue.", as well as the 71xx 4 train that always says this " THis is a bronx bound 4 express train. The next. Stop is. Moshulu Parkway.". THe stations are right, but the boroughs are wrong.
The PA'd doorchimes *C/R ding* *loud doorchimes over the PA*
Why won't the R142A take this software peacefully?
I would assume that (6) trains can also run BRONX EXPRESS, so anything is possible. In any event, the MTA needs to do something about this
LOL!!!!1
As far as the first picture, I say 100 because I used a little deductive reasoning from the 3 choices you gave. It's not 484 because the rattan in the picture doesn't have stripes on them. 484 has stripes. Its, not 491, again because of the seats (I explained 491's seats in the first paragraph).
My question is how they could have arranged the BMT controls without interfering with people transfering between the 7th Avenue and the Shuttle without foring BMT riders to pass through IRT controls.
What would have been the incentive to either system?
Not only Queensboro Plaza but at least the first three Flushing Line Stations east of there had two separate sets of turnstiles. One for eastbound traffic and one for westbound traffic. You had to ride all the way to 52 Street or 61 Street in order to catch a train in the opposite direction. This perculiar turnstile arrangement lasted into the 80's.
Larry, RedbirdR33
In 1965, this passageway existed just as it does now, though it was outside fare control.
I think it's still there, as is some of the origianl station on the other end of the same platform.
However, if the city chooses to FILL IT IN, it could use clear acrylic. That way we could see exactly what people have been tossing in there for the past couple hundred years.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ahobbycircle/ezwater.html
Now we just need a heat source, anyone got a spare 20000lb or so thrust jet engine lying around?
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not just use tap water?
AEM7
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
:-) Andrew
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Next question.
Thanks In Advance
This is what I live for...
--Z--
A. 950
B. 970
C. 990
D. 1010
A certain subway train on straight level track has an acceleration rate of 1.7 miles per hour per second up to 18 mph. The distance this train must travel on straight level track to accelerate from 8 mph to 18 mph is about _____ feet.
A. 75
B. 95
C. 110
D. 140
I used a basic physics formula
(vfinal)2 = (vinitial)2 + 2as
But the units were all screwed up. Miles per hour had to be converted to feet per second.
I finally got choice "c" also.
I don't know where this question came from. But it seems to me to be a nasty question.
1. Time to accelerate from 8 to 18 mph at 1.7 mph/sec = (18 - 8)/1.7 = 5.88 sec.
2. Average velocity of travel is: (8 + 18)/2 = 13 mph
3. Convert from mph to ft/sec: 13 x 1.47 = 19.11
4. Calculate distance travelled: 19.11 x 5.88 = 112.36
5. 110 is the closest answer.
I can only calculate in meter and second, so i've converted all to m/s and m/(s*s)
But here's the feet/mile version
v=a*t I'm having a and v, so i can calculate t for (0->8 mph and 0->18 mph) [v/a=t]
t8=8mph/(1.7 mph/s) = 4.7 s t18=18mph/(1.7mph/s)= 10.6 s
s=a*t*t/2 I'm having a and t, so i can calculate s for both times.
s8=1.7(mph/s)*4.7s*4.7s/2=27.6 feet s18=1.7(mph/s)*10.6s*10.6s/2=139.8 feet
The difference of both s are the questioned distance.
s=s18-s8=139.8-27.6=112.2 feet
The way you did it is fine...
You could also use the more generalized formula for velocity and distance
vfinal = vinitial + at
s = vinitialt + 1/2 at2
The way Stephen Baumann did it is fine.
I'm still wondering if this was an example of the recent motorman's test?
There's nothing particularly exotic about it. I would say a study guide prior to the test should be offered, that tells you what the test will cover, but no, they don't have to supply formulas. This is basic math.
What is the distinction between basic and advanced math?
I would say that basic math is the math that is (or at least used to be) required to earn an academic diploma from high school. It includes algebra, Euclidean geometry and trigonometry. It does not include calculus. The math required to describe the kinematics of a body undergoing constant acceleration would fall into basic math.
A lot of high school students avoid high school physics...
What do they take in its place? I'm pretty sure it's not a second foreign language. Passing a certain number of courses was required, when I went to high school. One of those requirements was four years of courses that were considered sciences and 3 years of a foreign language; an alternate requirement was two years of sciences and 3 years of a foreign language and 2 years of another foreign language.
This reminds me of the pre-sputnik era. James Killian, this country's first presidential science advisor, indicated that practically nobody in the Eisenhower administration knew anything about basic Newtonian physics. He said that one of his major tasks was to educate them at a high school level. This was an astounding statement because Killian was not a scientist.
On the physics regents, the students are given a formula sheet with these formulas...
This wasn't the case, when I took the physics in 1958. Then again, the passing grade was 65. Students were expected to know what was required to answer the regents questions without crib sheets. They were also expected to be able to do the arithmetic to solve numerical questions without calculators or slide rules.
I was dismayed by the Regents response to the low grades on the most recent physics regents. They would have blamed the students or the faculty had it been an inner city school. However, suburban students also flunked the regents, so the passing grade was lowered. Students got their diplomas.
The problem also involved mixed units...
I think that 25% of the homework problems for high school physics involved mixed units. My high school teacher stated the principle during the first week. You will be multiplying or dividing by 1 and anything that is multiplied or divided by 1 remains the same. For example, I used a conversion factor of 1.47 to convert from mph to ft/sec. Why?
1 mile = 5280 feet
1 hour = 3600 seconds.
So:
1 mile/hr 5280 ft/sec 3600 sec/hr = 1.47 ft/sec
I would have expected that residents of the only country left to use english units should know how to convert units. That's why I did not explain the derivation of the 1.47 conversion factor. Perhaps, it is time to switch to metric units, if our citizens now find units conversion burdensome.
This is not a trivial problem...
There are probably half a dozen different ways to solve this problem. All will yield the same result. Non-trivial problems will have at most one way to solve them.
I used "basic" to mean simple, as in figuring out how much change you get from $5. But you are correct that there is no "advanced" math needed to solve the problem.
You asked what students take in place of physics. There's geology or earth science, which has actually been turned into more of an environmental science course. I'm not sure how many years of science are needed in the current requirements for a high school diploma.
It is true that back in our days, we were not given formula sheets on the physics regents. But things were simpler then. I don't think they would have had a problem requiring unit conversions, nor would they have had multistep problems. By the giving the formula sheets out now, they're sort of saying that memorizing formulas is not what they want physics to be about. Knowing how to apply the formulas is the goal. The physics and chemistry regents have become much more conceptual than back in the old days when they asked us how do you prepare oxygen in the laboratory. (something to do with KMnO4
and catalysts.)
Here's a link to some recent Physics regents posted by New York State.
Recent Physics Regents
Yes, conversion units are a very powerful technique. For speeds I use 60 mi/hr = 88 ft/sec.
I'm not sure that the average student is comfortable with this stuff. I'm not sure that the average student nowadays is focused enough or motivated enough to give a damn one way or another.
When I said that the problem was not trivial, I really meant that it was not a 1 step problem. It is not a simple application of d = vt. The fact that it could be done a number of ways, some of which involved several steps made it a more difficult problem. I would agree that if someone was an adequate physics student, this is not a challenging problem.
I think the person who posted the two questions said later that this question appeared on the older Train Supervisor Tests. I'm almost willing to bet that it may have appeared in some Study Books for the test, but never actually appeared on a TA exam.
IMO, the term "intermediate" would be appropriate.
Physics has been dropped from the curriculum entirely at Lafayette HS in Brooklyn.
It would appear that physics is not the only thing that has been dropped at Lafayette. OTOH, one wonders what benefits could be gained for staying there for four full years. I gather English composition wasn't substituted.
A friend objected that 4th year Latin wasn't offered, when I was in high school. He wrote a letter to the New York Times that was published. He got 4th year Latin.
Latin has been irrelevant to modern living for generations (although one of my relatives, who authored a number of texts and a lexicon during the early/mid-1800s woud have disagreed, I'm sure). The only truly dead language to have been effectively revived in recent times is Hebrew, and even so there are a lot of differences between biblical Hebrew and the modern vernacular. And given the extraordinary circumstances surrounding the revival of Hebrew I don't think we'll see that phenomenon again, at least for many generations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Damn, you're old.
Koi
It wasn't that the school did not offer Latin. It offered the first three years of Latin. It was only the 4th year that they tried to cancel. That sort of muddies the relevance argument.
I consider a working knowledge of Russian to be very useful if you want to be a mathematician.
It's of greater use, if you want to operate subway trains at 40+ tph.
I know of many mathematicians who do not have a working knowledge of Russian, however all the people currently operating subway systems with service levels above 40 tph do have a working knowledge of Russian.
BTW, I did take two years of Russian as an elective in college. I would not characterize my current ability as a working knowledge. However, I can scan the pages of technical papers that are on the Moscow Metro website. I even posted a link to one within the last month, that presented the necessary conditions for providing 40+ tph service. As I noted in my post, that article was remarkably similar to my own presentation.
You still have not demonstrated that you are able to constructively contribute anything to New York's.
RTheir applied work isn't bad, either. A 1964 paper by Ufimtsev, published in the journal of the Moscow Institute for Radio Engineering (building on and extending WWII German research) was the basis of our stealth airplanes.
Not really... my point was that Latin as a language is irrelevant, period. There is far more important material that needs to be taught, such as proper use of our own language, not to mention science and history. Even advanced mathematics (as a high school subject) isn't terribly important in this day of computers. What seems most needed, though, is a good education in ethics - not as a separate subject (although I know that's been done at different points in educational history) but in two ways - as an integral part of all curriculum and, most importantly, by example. Last week I had the privilege of attending a special session of the Supreme Court of the Commonwealth of Virginia, called for the purpose of swearing-in about 900 new lawyers, including my younger daughter. Two other young women who were also there to be sworn in were speaking to the parents of one of them, who happened to be sitting behind my wife and I; the one girl was asking her parents to let the other one use the mother's AAA card to get a locksmith to come and open her car, as she had locked her keys inside. (The mother, rightfully, declined.) Makes me wonder how those two passed the ethics portion of the bar exam. But I digress.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I disagree. I took four years of Latin in England, passing my O-Level. I regard the knowledge I gained about sentence structure and parsing helped me significantly with understanding English, French and Spanish.
Arti
UCLA used to have a computer science-linguistics double major program.
French: English O-Level, was reasonably fluent when I tried it in France in the early 1970s. Now, who knows?
Spanish: English O-Level, was never really fluent. Tried to relearn recently because of Spanish friends. Didnt work to well.
Greek: Learned in the mid 1980s in New York as I had Greek friends. Very fluent, the only way I could improve would be by living in Greece for a few years.
German: tried in high school. Not a chance!
Interestingly enough, I have discovered that I can only really speak one second language well. When I was learning Spanish and French simultaneously, some French words would escape into the Spanish I was speaking. Then when I learned Greek, the Greek pushed out the French.
Just the way my brain works!
John
Oh, and by the way, learning Latin helped with the grammar of all the languages!
Children are the best language learners. They can learn several at once without confusing them. The key is that a different person use each language.
I'm reminded of a statement by Canadian Prime Minister Louis St.Laurent. He said that it wasn't until he was ten that he realized that not every father spoke French and every mother spoke English.
I beg to differ. Garbage in = garbage out, even in advanced computers. The humans need to have an understanding of what's going on...
Absolutely. That's why I qualified my statement by saying as a high school subject. An understanding of the principles at work is important, yes. But the ability to do the work that we have created computers to do, no... unless you're going to be designing them. Although I was a programmer for a number of years (before moving into project management) I managed quite well without having passed calculus; if I had tried to be a system architect I might perhaps have felt its lack. For me a computer is simply a powerful appliance whose basic concepts I understand, but I have as little need to know the details of how it is designed as I do the details of how, internally, a ratchet wrench works. All I need to know is that it will accomplish the task for which I need to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We dont need to learn anything other than English, because the Internet will have everyone speaking (at least a version) of English in the next few years
Turning the sarcasm off, I would disagree strongly with your statement. I would argue for math up to at least basic integration (polynomials), because its a basis for basic physics.
I would argue for basic physics, at least knowledge of electricity, gas laws and mechanics. I would argue for basic chemistry, basic biology. In teaching these subjects, I would also instill an enquiring attitude and a problem-solving approach.
I took all the above (and more) to English O-level and feel that the effort was more than worthwhile. Do I use the information? Some. I teach Scuba diving, which is applied Archimedes principle and gas laws: PV=NRT in real life!
John
BTW: The equations of motion:
v=u+at
s=ut+at2
v2=u2+2as
I learned at age 11, just after Newtons laws of motion!
I'd scarcely call that an ethical lapse.
If the mother had allowed her daughter's friend to use the card, pretending to be the person named on the card (or if she had used the card herself, claiming that she had been the driver of or a passenger in the car) it would be called "theft of services", since such a usage would be outside the terms of, and explicitly prohibited by, her contract with AAA. The daughter, by virtue of asking her mother, and the young woman who had been driving the car would have been "accessories" to the crime. I'd say it was a pretty significant ethical lapse on the part of the two new lawyers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do also note that the young lady's parents get my "El Cheapo" award for not adding the young lady to the AAA membership.
When my daughters were of driving age (and eventually got their own car while still living at home) they went on my AAA membership, with the required additional payment. Neither of them ever did anything like locking the keys in the car, but it was still money well spent.
Now both are on their own, and each has their own AAA membership.
Our children have been included on our Amoco/BP Motor Club membership for years as well. Cheaper than AAA by far and provides equivalent or better road service, although it doesn't usually net a hotel discount (but by making reservations ahead of time on the internet and/or taking advantage of the senior citizen discount we can usually do as well). And Amoco/BP will continue to let me cover them on my membership until they turn 25, regardless of whether or not they live under my roof.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The actual cardholder, (AAA has members) was not the one locked out, and was therefore not entitled by contract, to the services. AAA would have lost money, because the actual benefactor of the services was not a dues paying member, or a family member in the same household, added to the plan. Any lawyer even a new one, and most other people should realize this.
(The membership agreement is written by ***SURPRISE*** Lawyers.)
To get this on topic, a farebeater does not increase the operating costs of NYCT, or any other entity. But the act does deprive the entity of legitimate operating revenue. This is also Theft of service.
Regents aside, the math required by the TA is not exotic. If you want the job, accept the responsibility of learning the prerequisites.
You have a point. If the TA's schedule makers don't need to know there are 3600 seconds in an hour, why should a T/O?
Since the original post's questions were later attributed to former TSS tests, Schedule makers are not involved. TSS's do not make the schedules, just reinforce all the safety rules, operating policies and other things that make schedule adherence an improbalility, if followed properly.
"every second counts", but try to save the wrong second, and it just may result in a demotion.
That's what i'm doing also.
As for question 1, what are you referring to? Station location numbers? What are they? Survey makers are usually 50 feet apart, and have no equal sign. Where in the system would you find 32=20, or 42=10? I'm not being a wise guy, I'm asking. You would see 32+00, 32+50, 42+00, 42+50. As for the signals their numbers are approximate locations only, and would not be representative of the actual distance between any two. A signal 10 feet north of 32+20, if it existed, could be XN 32 or XN 31 (XN being track # A1 0r F2 0r J4 etc.) But you're not referring to the number plate.
In theory though, to answer question one: Signal would be D). 1010 feet north of Signal two. 990 feet between "station markers" plus ten feet north from 32=20 to sig 1, plus ten feet south from 42=10 to sig 2.
The accuracy of acceleration is not relevant to the question. It is a "given" which you can assume is correct for test purposes.
In reality the true acceleration of a subway train will vary about a mean. The smaller the standard deviation, the more consistent and precise the controller is.
This is an ambiguously worded question with two different interpretations. Strictly speaking the distance travelled consists of two parts: the distance it would have travelled @ 8 mph without any acceleration and the distance due solely to the acceleration. You obviously meant the total of both these distances because this answer is close to one of your choices and the distance due to acceleration is not close to any. However, you asked for the distance to accelerate.
An unambiguous way to phrase this question would have been: If the train accelerates from 8 to 18 mph, then the distance travelled is approximately ____ feet. This removes the causality ambiguity.
Going from north to south we have on a dimensioned diagram:
#1->|<-10'->|<-abs(3220 - 4210)->|<-10'->|<-#2
That comes to 10 + 990 + 10 = 1010.
These are questions from old TSS exams. I hear they don't include the math anymore because no one can figure it out.
Does stationing always increase one way or the other?
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
Robert
Amazing though the differences in different cartypes ...
Maybe the R-142/143s have a moo button somewhere.:)
But once upon a time, the birdies would put the geese on the floor too if you weren't careful. :)
Oh and speaking of door controls, I tried 5760's triggers at the Transit Museum, and they would not even budge. Maybe they were locked in place. 484's triggers OTOH worked like a charm.
One of the rituals when you HAD your air and prior to turning the drum switch was you had to step outside and slap all four bottle caps to release the mechanism or you might have an unpleasant surprise of the doors flying open when the drum switch was enabled going into operation. I referred to that as the "four quadrant cap slap" ...
But much like the drop pins that are used to lock the doors on a train once closed up, there are smaller pins inside the air door controls to keep the trigger bars from moving as well. Maybe one of the old timers from car equipment can elaborate on how the safety interlocks worked ...
The things you learn here. Of course, given my passion for trigger boxes....:)
Old age and treachery, shall overcome youth and enthusiasm. The 32's are in better shape than the 42's and other younger ones, of that era. (Well documented on Subtalk) As for the 143's, there's nothing wrong with the fleet, a 20 megaton would'nt cure(It's Japanese heritage a tragic, and unintended coincidence). Detonate them, that handle position is lousy, even on a puny run like the L. You would be sadistic to take it over a 46 or 32 on the R (or F, the other long 32/46 route). You'd either feel it in you arm/hand, or be very late due to releasing a full service brake at all those station stops. I'm not in an extreme hurry to get to each terminal, and don't panic over running times, but neither do I like to waste too much time.
I even found the R46's better to handle then an R32.
You'll get good and bad with both, as with any class of car. Overall I like the 32's more, but won't argue with the stopping of the 46's, just the fact they're uncomfortable to operate standing up in. But they're far better in turn, than the not so similiar 44's.
I have not tuched a R32 in over two years, The cab view is also very different as you are sitting higher then an R42.
I disagree, I feel higher up in the 40/42's than the 32's (the window and console in the 40/42's seem lower to me), but I have no problem with either view. (Excluding outside in the rain.)
Nothing personal, To each their own.
Old age and treachery, shall overcome youth and enthusiasm. The 32's are in better shape than the 42's and other younger ones, of that era. (Well documented on Subtalk) As for the 143's, there's nothing wrong with the fleet, a 20 megaton would'nt cure(It's Japanese heritage a tragic, and unintended coincidence). Detonate them, that handle position is lousy, even on a puny run like the L. And you can absolutely forget about standing in an 143. They're bad on a short run, and would be even more so on a long run. You would be sadistic to take it over a 46 or 32 on the R (or F, the other long 32/46 route). You'd either feel it in you arm/hand, or be very late due to releasing a full service brake at all those station stops. I'm not in an extreme hurry to get to each terminal, and don't panic over running times, but neither do I like to waste too much time.
I even found the R46's better to handle then an R32.
You'll get good and bad with both, as with any class of car. Overall I like the 32's more, but won't argue with the stopping of the 46's, just the fact they're uncomfortable to operate standing up in. But they're far better in turn, than the not so similiar 44's.
I have not tuched a R32 in over two years, The cab view is also very different as you are sitting higher then an R42.
I disagree, I feel higher up in the 40/42's than the 32's (the window and console in the 40/42's seem lower to me), but I have no problem with either view. And the console on the 143 is hard to see over when I'm sitting comfortably.
Nothing personal, To each their own.
Anyway I really like the R32s simply because they have more standing room comparing to the 46s and oh man...the RF window!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
This is correct.
116th Street is the highest station above sea level.
Elias
This is correct
116th Street is the highest station above sea level.
This is INcorrect
The land at the end of the #2 in the Bronx is higher.
I'm not so sure.
The O.P. asked about how high they ARE, not how high they WERE. NYCT themselves say that Smith/9 Sts is the highest station above street level, at 88 feet.
And, I got an M7 on the way home, with garbage on the floor. The riding public has already set to work on soiling these brand new cars.
www.forgotten-ny.com
wayne
:0)
No, when all M-7's are delivered, there will be a small number of M-1's that will receive the current air brake overhaul. Those will be the last to go. Possibly when a future M-7 add-on order comes down the road, the last M-1's will be retired. The M-3's will be around for a while.
Bill "Newkirk"
Routine maintenance........something like an SMS.
Bill "Newkirk"
The M-7's are in the "general pool" now. That means they will be sent anywhere there is third rail. No particular branch assignment.
"And, I got an M7 on the way home, with garbage on the floor. The riding public has already set to work on soiling these brand new cars."
These cars are being "christened" by the usual slobs who ride, I saw one car where someone with a cigarette lighter tried to damage the plastic seat frame. It was blackened by the soot, which could be removed. But no obvious damage to the plastic.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/pwbranch/pwbranch.html
Since then, Auburndale has been completely rebuilt and the line, like all LIRR branches, has gotten new M7 cars. The line is much better than it was.
However, things aren't all that rosy and the line still has a lot of aspects Mr. Hyde would find hospitable.
Though platforms at St. Albans and Laurelton elsewhere in the boro have gone or will soon undergo major renovation, Broadway and Murray Hill's platforms are crumbling onto the tracks. Broadway had a station house unnecessarily rebuilt in 2001, yet in January the MTA closed a section of the westbound platform rather than shore it up. Meanwhile, Murray Hill's staircases have become dangerously uneven, especially in winter when snow and ice can obscure the steps that have worn away.
I entreatied local honcho John Liu about the situation last year, but wasn't answered...
Broadway was on the MTA's list as of 2002 for scheduling a rehabilitation. The closure of the westbound platform is temporary, though temporary may mean many months. It is closed off for safety, not because they won't rebuild it. Be patient. It will get done.
Incidentally, a lot of people (incl. me) would not agree with your characterization of the station house rebuild. That project was appropriate, though I personally would have taken care of the platform first.
Isaw the Broadway platform one day, I just laughed when they closed that end of it. Who said grass and weeds dont grow on high level platforms? lol.
Murray Hill is worse though. I just can't believe the platforms physical state. Ugh.
Bayside's lookin great though!
I do plan Forgotten pages on all NYC LIRR stations, and then Metro North.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Flushing has to be one of the worse stations ever.
The "Last Ride of The Redbird" was one of the best experiences that I have ever had due to the fact that I shared it with dear old Dad and my fellow SubTalkers. I would have never forgave myself if I missed out on this ride. There is nothing like riding a redbird. No other class of subway cars currently in operation could match up with that. Butterflies were flying in my stomach at the 111 Street stop, knowing that this stop will be the last time that "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors" will ever be heard on a revenue redbird train. I kind of wished that the trip would have ended at Main St instead of Willets Point. But, what better way to take a SubTalk group photo by the redbird, with Shea Stadium in the background. Once returning back to Manhattan, I started remembering about when I first boarded a redbird. Strange enough, my first encounter with any new and GOH subway cars were always on the Lexington Ave Line. First redbird, R62A, and R142A on the 6, first R62 on the 4. But, my hometown team, the Mets, had the 7 line(was the first of my riding the white train). The redbirds being retired tells me "Jimmy, you are getting old". But as they say, we have to move out the old, and bring in the new. So this Monday had two pluses for me. One, I rode the last redbird. And two, the best of all, I brought home my two newborn nephews home from the hospital, nick-named Linus and Rerun that same day. I couldn't have asked for any better. Well, I bid farewell-happy trails-so long-adios-aloha to the redbird. You will be missed. And it was great meeting all the SubTalkers that attended. And my father, Arrow III Senior, says "Hey" to everyone from Florida.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
In Germany they have a court system that isn't as "he's only a teeager. so we can't scar him for life" ,as in the US.
Considering he shot at the police with a gas gun.
I suspect the young man will see the inside of a prison cell before too long.
One version says, that the female driver asked the guy to drive her tour
till the end, cos she felt ill, the other says she stayed on the train
and shooting was later on the street, not train.
What is it with Germans and gas, anyway?
That's sort of a dubious comment ...
Berlin may have a significant Turkish population, but it's certainly not the second largest Turkish city in the world. Ankara would have that distinction, with a population in excess of 3 million (Istanbul is over 9 million). Izmir is over 2 million, and Bursa and Adana are both over one million.
Krikie.
Was that your intention?
I lost a grandfather to the Holocaust. My fsmily has long since made peace with that situation.
Which part is German? The Sicilian or the Irish?
I do not like the implications suggested about "Germans and gas"
Well I'm part German and I find those implications hallarious! There, I cancelled you out! Take that.
FULL DETAILS on this weekend's TRAIN SHOW in Poughkeepsie, NY
The article links to a website that I really couldn't make much sense out of.
Does anyone know about this?
Yankees Lose World Series
Anyhow, the article is trying to make you aware of companies that provide the service of issuing pre-tax transit vouchers, in accordance with the government regulations that exist. TransitCenter's "TransitChek" is the most popular one around here, but as you can see from the site, there are many other organizations that provide similar services.
My employer is the City of New York. Strange, no?
http://www.nyc.gov/html/opa/html/taxbreaks-transit.html
Mark
Mark
Mark
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
One woman had a cabin in the penthouse row on the Queen Elizabeth II and lived there year-round. It's only money.
But it would be sort of like living in the John Hancock in Chicago in an ice storm, or in Battery Park City after 9/11, or Roosevelt Island while the subway was under construction, and knowing you were stuck with your neighbors. Yeeeeeeesh.
Imagine being trapped on something 100x smaller, with the interminable ships 'No-Entry' passages blocking any attempts to explore!
Mark
Mark
: )
Mark
Look at the bright side, no cars either
Look at the bright side, no cars either
According to the site, the ship has both cars and subways.
Mark
Mark
Oh, the humanity!
residensea
Mark
Mark
Just like the crazy folks who want to live up there in California just to have their houses burnt down to the ground every few years, or those who live in hurricane/tornado prone areas to have their houses washed and blown away every once and a while.
Seriously, this has to be either a scam to swindle people with more money than sense or the insane dream of a crackpot with a knack for persuasion.
Mark
But I could have sworn when I looked at it that someone had linked me to The Onion.
All you need is some server somewhere and you can create anything. If it looks good (and the site certainly looks inviting) but is it real, or just eye candy.
Kinda interesting that the "where the ship is now" link isn't active.
Where do you hide a ship that big?
It may be in the running for the most outrageous website of 2003.
Just think, only 97 years until either the Second Avenue Subway or the 22nd Century.
Mark
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/nyregion/06MTA.html
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
This is certainly true, but it doesn't mean that they couldn't be compatible because of different manufacturers. Just look at all of the older IRT equipment that MU together on a regular basis.
Wayne
The R44/46 compatibality problem, especially after their GOH, baffles me.
:-) Andrew
R32/R38: R32-Budd Car Co, R38-St. Louis Car
The R-44 brake system was changed first, before GOH, from
P-Wire to Westcode, which is basically a SMEE-like straight
air system. The R-46 GOH was similar, but the brake package
was made by NYAB. There were two minor incompatibilities.
The Westcode package does not use a feed valve to regulate brake
pipe air, so it varies from 100-130 psi, wherease on the R-46
it is always 110 psi. I don't think this would really cause
a problem, but it is one of the cited reasons for not mixing
the cars. Also, the NYAB motorman's valves are notorious for
having very cheap electric self-lapping contacts that are easily
pitted. Evidently this problem is worsened when hooked up to
Westcode equipment.
The R-46 was more reliable. If they had made them compatible, they would have to carry over some of the unreliability from the R-44.
Why didn't the TA install H2C couplers and the BL33c electric portion to the R-46. Since it has a standard NYAB braking system, it would have then been compatible with all of the B division cars except the R-44. The R-44 will bever be compatible because of its bastard Air brake system.
I guess in Arizona it only costs $77,000 to buy an election. From what I read in Orlando comparing itself with phoenix, and now this, the towns are too similiar I guess. I still don't get it. Only difference is there would be additional fee's to developers.
Bullet points:
-Tucson voters rejected the idea of paying higher taxes to improve bus service and build light rail by defeating Propositions 200 and 201 on Tuesday.
-Steve Farley, spokesman for the citizens group, said the effort to improve mass transit will continue. "We don't go away. We keep talking to people," he said
-Proposition 200 was defeated by 63 percent to 37 percent of voters. The ballot item called for increasing the city's regular sales tax and construction sales tax.
Voted down was: Citizens for a Sensible Transportation Solution wanted to spend the money from the higher taxes on expanded bus service, the construction of a light-rail line, extra street maintenance, more sidewalks and bike lanes, the extension of the Old Pueblo Trolley line and extra traffic law enforcement.
Here's a good "fact": The group ran ads saying that the construction of the light-rail line would hurt nearby businesses, and that the cost of building light rail would balloon far above estimates.
But here's the problem with these things: However, he wasn't optimistic that voters would approve the propositions. Keyes said people who don't live in neighborhoods near the proposed light-rail line probably wouldn't support it. "It's so hard to get people to think about the city as a whole," he said.
Isn't Phoenix still building a rail-line along with talking about double-decking the highways?
This passage caught my eye:
The Committee for Real Regional Transportation raised more than $77,000 to pay for ads criticizing the two propositions. Most of the money came from construction and real estate groups including the Southern Arizona Home Builders Association and the Tucson Association of Realtors.
Once again the home builders were to blame. (Remember that thread about Houston-area homebuilders fighting light rail, News from Elsewhere: Homebuilders pay BIG $$$ to derail rail.)
This just bugs me that the well-being of our metropolitan areas is being held hostage by the development industry. It's just like way transit systems were ripped up years ago for the sake of the auto, oil, and rubber industries.
Yuck.
Mark
This one's a little different. Least this one was talking about raising impact fee's for developers, so at least there's a little bit of a reason for once.
I'm sick of the organization names they keep using though. Committee for Real Regional Transportation should be sued for false advertising and misleading tactics. :)
Least it looks like elections are done for now and there's a couple victories going around in different area's.
Neglected to mention that I wonder how much control these guys have in other metro's and states. There's a thing called the Florida 100 they always talk about, all made up of real estate people who make demands and tell the government what to do(to put it nicely). Only thing these places have is the vote, when it's not tainted with propaganda.
Just shows how important voting is, and every vote counts(I lost a college election by ONE vote once, I know).
This is exactly the same thing that the mobsters did during the '90's with penny stocks...but thats another story. :)
As for light rail in Mississippi, Jackson really could use some transportation alternatives because so many people are moving east of the Pearl River, and the bridge on Highway 25 is a real bottleneck. A rail might ease some of that. But what Jackson really needs is some sound urban planning to help rein in that sprwal and build back its downtown (Jackson could be any smaller American city in this regard) with residents and business. Efforts are already underway, and what few downtown apartments there are always rented out. You can find out more by digging through The Clarion-Ledger or Jackson Free Press. Both have run recent features on this matter.
The other place in Mississippi light rail might work is on the Gulf Coast, because the layout of the Gulfport-Biloxi metro area is very linear, running along the coast in a straight line.
Mark
I hate to tell you, but if they haven't seen all the preparations and work going into the light rail line then they probably live in the wrong part of Phoenix to be on top of it! The Valley Metro website has a prominently displayed section on the Central Phoenix-East Valley Light Rail Project. This website has construction updates (it looks like most construction at the moment is happening downtown on 1st Avenue) and even a countdown to the line's opening - only 1,134 days until you can ride LRV's in Phoenix!
tucson arizona does have a museum trolley rail line that is currently operational at this time
If you're bored the next time you're in Phoenix, check out the trolley museum there. It's not as large or interesting as the Tucson outfit (which actually runs through rather crowded city streets) but they've got a nice-looking Phoenix streetcar that runs on about 300' of track and a couple of other cars in storage. It's in Hance Deck Park, on the west side of Central Avenue behind the brick house. More info here.
Frank Hicks
Jackson's sprawling growth may be a poor form of growth, but at least it shows the city's enjoying some Sunbelt prosperity. A New York-style situation, where there's no growth at all because everyone's out of work and trying to leave, would be worse.
But it's kind of a downer to see all the sprawl. That's the city where I went to college, and I still have an attachment to the place. I hope the downtown development schemes take off. There's some reason to be optimistic. The phones of the few landlords who own residential property downtown are ringing off the hook with people who want to live there. The problem is that commerical lenders are skeptical and won't lend to would-be developers who want to put more residences downtown to meet the demand. This makes me wonder if this same scenario isn't slowing more downtown revitalization efforts across the country.
Personally, I'd like to see the revitalization schemes work because I'm curious as to just how small a city can be a viable place for a light rail system, given you pack enough of its people into small enough space. Portland has about 2 million people. Jackson has only about 425,000 in the metro area. A European city that size would have a tram of some sort. I don't know if any American city that small will ever be re-invented into something dense enough for light rail, but it'd be fun to see what is possible. At the very least Jackson might become a place where buses with headways shorter than 30 minutes become viable.
Mark
"Individual collectors and train enthusiasts have snapped up sign boxes, hand holds and other items from the distinct Redbirds since they were put up for auction a year ago, but is preserving an entire Redbird car in Queens an idea that is way-off track?"
Is that a free paper or is it sold on stands? Where can I get one?
I just loved the front page. Was that a shot of the Redbirds from Monday? I guess so, with the altered header sign.
And David Oats gets the "Best Transit Quote of the Year"
"David Oats, a longtime Flushing Meadows-Corona Park historian, said of the reluctance to house a Redbird, "They are full of crap. These people are supposed to be our cultural visionaries."
"It is a rare day the MTA is willing to give something for free. This is something that should be taken up and preserved as an important token of Queens history," Oats said.
At the least the Science Museum might take a stripped car and show how the marine life use it.
They do a great job. They fill a void in providing local news that hasn't been filled since the Long Island Press and the Long Island Star-Journal went out of business in the 70s.
The Tribune's Southeast Queens edition is called the Press of Southeast Queens. It's a fine thing to have a paper called the Press back in Queens. Maybe the Star-Journal is next (actually, the Chronicle runs some old things from the Long Island Star-Journal every now and then).
As others have said, it's free and found all over Queens. I'll try to pick one up for you.
Another thing about the Trib: one of the staff photographers, Ira Cohen, is also a T/O and a buff. Redbirds have appeared on the cover several times in the past few years.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2U3FVQ5WIH&isbn=0823222926&itm=3
I ordered mine from the site and I'll let you know if I have any problems.
If you order from the site you will get a 20% discount bringing the price down to $24.00 from the cover price of $30.00 (don't forget to factor in local sales tax and shipping).
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
I have recieved confirmation from B & N that the order was shipped on Monday. Based on the 3-8 day standard shipping I selected I should recieve it within the next day or so.
I never order a book that has "availability of "1 to 2 months".
--Mark
This morning, no later than 10 a.m., I happened to see a Redbird. That's right, though this Redbird was "powder blue" (in its original paint), running downtown express on the 3. It made express stops until it reached 42nd, where the T/O ordered all passengers off the train.
I made my connection to the 7, just to see what was happening at Corona, when I happened to climb aboard (get this) an R-142 with ROLL-SIGNS and the interior of an old Redbird. Apparently, some kinks with the third rail were still left unfixed, as every now and then, we'd lose complete power. The automated voice was a "Godly" character (think James Earl Jones).
When we got to Shea Stadium, we departed and watched the Mets defeat the Red Sox in the '86 World Series.
The gist of the story was that the system had become so complicated that portions of it started to exist in another universe, and a train was caught in an endless loop. The solution was to break a couple of line connections, which reduced the complexity to the extent that the system returned to three dimensions and the train came to an ordinary station.
If anyone can remember the title and author of this story and let me know, I would be grateful.
Thanks,
John
> what?
The Christie St Cut.
I've got the book somewhere, if I can locate it, I'll also post the info.
John
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we got the Second Avenue Subway, which we stocked exclusively with Redbirds, BMT Standards and Triplexes, and a widened Lo-V or two. Wicked cool, huh? :-)
Only 1 of these scrolls is a link
Only 1 of these scrolls is a link
Only 1 of these scrolls is a link
Only 1 of these scrolls is a link
OPERA!
I'm gonna get me some treats! Yippee!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It is the former Union Station of the BB&WE and the PP&CI.
In between it was the imaginatively named Fifth Avenue Bus Depot.
It was pretty obvious for watchers of the Honeymooners that, depsite the fact that Ralph was supposed to live in Brooklyn, the "Gotham Bus Company" was Fifth Avenue Coach/New York Omnibus, not the TA.
I would guess that both neighborhoods were fairly similar in the early 50's when the show was done.
Did they ever finish construction on the 36(?)th Street Bridge? I want to see if you can get a closer look at the 39(?)th Street Yard.
Located in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, on 5th Avenue between 39th & 36th Streets, B63, B35 & B70 Lines run directly pass there.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Posted on:11/6/03 5:16:05 PM
Due to a track fire near the Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Ave station, Queens-bound R and V local trains are running on the express track between Queens Plaza and Forrest Hills-71st until further notice.
The bumpers are way to long (they stick out too far) and the couplers are missing.
Barry Levinson's people did a whole lot better for Avalon and Liberty Heights. The PCC mockup used was a 99% accurate copy of a Pullman PCC.
It was so good, when a photo of it appeared in the Baltimore Sun our past president called our current one, asking if we had any problem moving 7407 (the real car) to the site.
However, the FX boys screwed up the wire in Avalon. Watch the "accident" scene that takes place at the Senator Theatre again. You will notice it's trackless trolley ovehead, not streetcar wire - after they had seen the genuine article at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, where several of the actual streetcar scenes were filmed.
Where is this museum anyway?
"Humoresque" with John Garfield and Joan Crawford has clips at other points in that movie.
Speaking of Jackson Heights, don't forget Henry Fonda the subway riding there in "The Wrong Man".
Harold Lloyd's "Speedy" was filmed all over NY in 1928 and features travel Els & subways, and of course is based upon the last horse car in NY. It includes lots of stock footage of els, plus a cameo by Babe Ruth.
Finally, the Busby Berkley extravaganza "Dames" has the couple (Ruby Keeler & Dick Powell) taking the IND to 215th St!!
The one movie you guys are forgetting is King Kong (1933), when the ape either smashes a piece of the 3rd or 6th Ave els. That entire scene was completely replicated in the 1970s remake right down to the motorman's facial expressions on the Astoria el.
There's another film from the late 40s or early 50s called "Port Of New York" (which starred a young and hairy Yul Brynner), that had a scene at the Canal Street station on the El.
(Just kidding, Stef. :)
(And no, I haven't seen the movie, I've just read several reviews.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I wrote "I had the feeling it might be over the heads of most of the people here." , I shouldn't have used the word "it".
After Peter's response, I wanted to say that
"I had the feeling that bringing up a movie like this might be over the heads of most of the people here."
I would agree with you that the website Peter linked to was not over the heads of most people here, and actually might be right on line with some.
You were asking about whether the movie involved a NYCT station agent. Did you like Sandra Bullock's
"While You Were Asleep?"
I went to see "The Station Agent" in the city today. It's playing at Broadway & 62nd & the Angelica on Houston Street as well as BAM in Brooklyn. Although there are scenes with passing NJT commuter trains and freight trains, the movie's beauty comes from the portrayal of a group of lonely and bitter souls. "The Station Agent" is a very sweet and touching movie.
Except maybe to a REALLY hard core railfan, to whom "affairs of the flesh" are insignificant in comparison to affairs of the rails.
I would guess 34th street on the Lex or Nevins St. in Downtown Brooklyn.
Or would it be the stations on Queens Blvd?
That has to be one of the most crowded local stations I have seen.
But I must nitpick: there is no 34 St station on the Lexington Av line and Nevins St is an Express stop.
However, the answer is 68th Street-Hunter College, at #23 with 9,740,346 riders in 2002 (there are other local stations ranked higher, but they are part of station complexes, and really the whole complex is ranked rather than the individual station).
David
See the "Subway and Bus Ridership Report", published annually by NYCT Office of Management and Budget and distributed free of charge.
It gives the number of journeys originating at each subway station or complex annually and on an average weekday.
68th street on the 6
51st street on the 6
Canal street on the 6
Woodhaven blvd on the G R V
Going back in time, I would say the 169th St station of the "E" and "F", BEFORE the opening of the Archer Ave Subway and re-routing of the Merrick Blvd and Murdock Ave Buses from 169th St would've been a close second.
If so, 74th would only be a local station during rush hour, and then for only the riders in one direction. That is why I did not consider it.
As to 33/34th St. I always think of it as 34th. Sorry about the mistake.
68th Street on the 6 is the winner, with 9,762,139 fare registrations. 77th Street falls immediately behind it, at 9,761,918. A bit further down is 33rd (8,127,427), followed immediately by 50th on the 1/9 (8,052,456) and then 23rd on the 6 (7,932,618).
The busiest in Queens is Woodhaven (6,130,685). Busiest in Brooklyn is Grand Army Plaza (2,524,013). Busiest in the Bronx is 167th B/D (2,367,518).
My home local station is at 5,867,037.
(South of 125 St)
Ah, my home station. Always found it a wee bit crowded. I always thought that 77 Street or 51 St would have been busier, or even Canal St. But David knows his statistics.
Regards,
Jimmy
It's a 50% express stop - the 4 Av X skips it, but the Brighton X haves to stop.
A most interesting fact, supporting the case for converting it into a local and express stop, like 59th St.
Now what I would like to know is: Which pair of subway station platforms (local or express) handles the most passengers?
Not at all. The connection was made to enable passengers to transfer from one busiest routes in the city to the other busiest routes.
Before this, passengers from Queens Exp trains would have to switch to the Queens Blvd Lcl trains at Queens Plaza to get to the Lexington Ave routes. Before the "R" was extended to Queens, the Queens Lcl ("N") didn't even run to Manhattan at all nights and weekends. This meant that passengers along the Queens Blvd line would have to go to Jackson Heights and transfer to the "7" and take that into Manhattan for the Lexington Ave.
Can you imagine what a pain that was for someone boarding the "G" at Steinway St during these hours trying to get to the Lexington Ave lines?
As far as which platform is most crowded, my vote would be the Grand Central Station of the Lexington Ave Line.
Yes indeed, and that connection proved its worth by becoming overcrowded, suggesting the need for an improved connection. 51st Street is the seventh busiest complex in the system, and I would guess by far the busiest station where some trains do not stop.
"As far as which platform is most crowded, my vote would be the Grand Central Station of the Lexington Ave Line."
You are probably right, but I should have phrased the question to count an island platform as two platforms! And also to exclude passengers using a platform on one line to transfer between two other lines.
Thank you.
The old approach was to have late trains bypass the busiest local stations on the line. I don't know if this was deliberate or not, but it turned bad service into worse service and yielded very crowded platforms at 72nd, where often five or six expresses (including one on the local track, signed as 1 or 9) would go by, dumping passengers on the platform, before an actual local would arrive. This practice wasn't restricted to rush hours, BTW -- I've seen it happen on Sunday evenings, to multiple locals in a row.
That's not done anymore. I don't know if the typical bypasses have been moved to stations that aren't quite so busy (south of 34th or north of 137th) or if they've been eliminated entirely, but they're not done between 42nd and 96th anymore, and the change is astounding.
Search back a few years and you'll see that I used to be a big critic of 1/9 service. Since 9/15/02, I've only had one bad experience on the line: one morning at about 9:30, I arrived on an extremely overcrowded platform at 86th only to have to wait 12 minutes for a train -- I'd estimate that the total wait had been at least 30. The dispatcher didn't think to switch one or two expresses to the local track to fill the gap (and perhaps to make up time in Brooklyn, where southbound ridership at that time of day is much lower than in Manhattan), and the S/A, when innocently asked for a block ticket, proclaimed, "There's nothing wrong with the trains!" When the train finally came, I was astonished to see it stop and open its doors, but it did bypass 66th and 50th (the two busiest local stations on the line without transfers to alternate routes). I don't know what happened after that -- I was planning to stay on to Franklin, but I didn't know if it would stop there, so I bailed at Times Square for the BMT to Canal.
For the past two months I've been riding the 1/9 four days a week. Service hasn't been a problem at all. (If only I could say the same about a particular part-time booth that's scheduled to open at 6:30am but that I've never seen open until a few minutes later, after a train has gone by.)
That's not to say that all local stations in the neighborhood are adequately served. The attitude that used to apply to 1/9 service has been transferred with a vengeance to the C.
Doesn't surprise me, actually. Houston Street's far less busy outside of rush hour. It illustrated the "peaking" phenomenon more clearly than most other stations.
Manhattan: 51st/Lex
Outside Manhattan: Woodhaven Blvd (IND)
YEAH!!! Bring on the cold!!!
Ever been on an unheated train?
Bah. Unheated isn't that bad, you should already have a coat on to get to the train station. An unairconditioned car, IMO, is a bigger problem.
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was greeted by 484 and 1575 on Monday night at 34th St - Penn Sta. They were in good company as SBK Locos N1 and N2 were on hand to provide assistance.
-Stef
(I was going to look for them a few days ago in the afternoon rush until I realized that skip-stop would make that venture very difficult.)
Say I go to 207th first. Nothing there. So I walk to 215th and get my pictures. Now I want to go home. So I go back to the street and up to the other side. JUST USED. Whoops.
Or maybe I go to 215th first. Nothing there. Walk down to 207th and get my pictures. Now I want to go home. JUST USED.
Is the heat actually non-functional on all three? That'd be a REAL surprise to me if this is the case. The heat grids under the seats were the ultimate in simplicity ... and if the coils are open, I'm told a bead of borax, along with some current would repair open coils in arnines. No high tech there.
wayne
Back in the old days with the put-ins out of CIY, there were a lot of trains doing the "procession" out of the yards and since I was still a probie, ever fearful of getting to work late or worse, forgetting something, I'd make it a point to get to my consist a lot earlier than most people normally would and do preps and walkthroughs. The Motor Instructors loved to razz the newbies, and I'd gotten tired of "what's this? Why is this off?"
As for Branford, there were a lot of things going on there that day and I know their electrons are limited. Trolleys out, 6688 lit, I feared I'd be pushing it. I made the choice of twirling fans that folks could SEE over the heat ... the electric rates in Connecticut are pretty severe, even on a weekend. And after all, with W3 out there also, every now and then the lights would dim on the car if something else was moving. Had the heat been on, I suspect we would have seen a mushroom cloud over Unca Jeff's carbarn. :)
Robert
Saw something weird last night...
R142s #6951-6960, assigned to the #5 line, on the West Side, in simulated testing...
ON THE (3)?????
It said on the side signs:
3 to HARLEM-148 ST
3 BWAY-7 AV EXP
3 BROOKLYN LOCAL
I was like...
WHAT???
After the testing, the train went up to Unionport Yard to lay up...
Incognito
Surfing the White Plains Line Since '94
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
One time in the spring an R-142 was on the 3 line in revenue service. It was an 11xx train from the 4 line.
I was lucky enough to ride this train! :)
And here's a 3 Line Announcement that John Recorded
Source: http://www.johnvillanueva.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I guess I must have been wrong.
I was on the 8:35a.m. train from NYP to Babylon today, which was misrouted -- oops!!! -- as it approached Jamaica Station. The train was halted and backed through two signals until it cleared the switch at which it had been misrouted and could resume its approach to the platforms on the proper track.
I wonder how often this sort of thing happens on mainline railroads.
Elias
Also, do those trains go full speed in reverse like that?
Yes (ah...er...) No!
There is a limit if the train is running backwards.
AMTK does it very slowly.
But OTOH... if what you are really looking at is a push-pull set, and the engineer is in the leading cab, then it is full speed ahead. As far as the locomotive itself is concerned, it does not care which direction it is going.
Elias
Refuse to pay the driver anything?
It is illegal in NYC, it is not illegal everywhere.
Some places cabs are always shared, and the tariff specifies that each person pays their own fares, like as if on a bus.
Elias
The reason why it is not done on commuter lines is because it is a slow disruptive process. Commuter railroads design their plants to accomodate forward movements, and to reduce or eliminate reverse moves.
As long as the train owns the block that it is in, the conductor can go whichever way pleases him.
Elias
Elias
Just for information's sake...that area has changed VASTLY since your visit.
The "Alameda Corridor" project opened a bit over a year ago -- it is a two-track, higher speed mainline built into a trench in the median of Alameda Street, a few blocks east. Nowadays almost all the freight traffic from Central LA down to the LA Harbor travels in the trench at 45-50 MPH! No street traffic interference....no vandalized of the trains by the neighborhoold folk....and quicker transit times for the freights. The intermodal traffic is growing by leaps and bounds; I used to work next to the Blue Line when the project was first proposed, and thought it would never get built -- and all of a sudden in 2002 it is open!
Also, due to the heavy traffic on Imperial Highway -- as well as on the Blue Line -- overpasses are being constructed (they may be open by now) to eliminate that crossing. It was probably the busiest on the line.
I got home pretty late.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Anyone know when they start doing it with passengers?
Look for service by the end of November or perhaps December. The PA wants it accomplished before the end of the year.
PA started hyping the WTC reopening about 3-4 weeks in advance of the actual date. Nothing yet on Airtrain JFK.
CG
I wouldn't mind doing it if they give me a year supply of unlimited metrocards....lol
SO TIRED.
IF LATE,
GET FIRED.
WHY BOTHER?
WHY THE PAIN?
(JUST) GO HOME.
DO IT AGAIN.
(photograph of a bed shows up here)
Can anyone guess where this message is in the NY Subway? I know.
Hint: the above is like a Burma-Shave sign chain.
Who and why this make these signs anyway?
You were? :-)
There is a plaque for this too.
Regards,
Jimmy
The rest of LIRR's caboose fleet was designed and built for LIRR.
C50-C61 were just basic box-on-frame sqaure jobs.
C62-C70 were International car company shorty bay windows (as int he photo.)
C80 was an ex-NYO&W wooden car that LIRR built a home-made bay window body onto.
C91-C97(?) were ex-IC cupola cabeese bought in the 70's for some odd reason. LIRR's freight wasn't growing, and they had plenty of their own....
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It was going to be used as an office by a scrapper, but they changed their mind.
With all the transit delays, though, who knows?
When were the R11's (by this time R34's) retired from service? I know that 8013 is still around and in the Transit Museum, and I assume that it was earmarked for preservation when the class was retired. Also, what type of control did this series have - was it some sort of GE MCM like the R17's? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
Westinghouse type ABS, Westinghouse UP-631-B controller and master controller according to the facts here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r11.html
BTW, today's routing took me on Trans-Bridge Lines from the PABT (after taking the DeCamp bus into the city from my area) to Doylestown, the R5 to 30th St station*, backtracked on the R6 to Norristown TC, the Route 100 to 69th St, the Market-Frankford and then grabbed a bite at my love-at-first-site Reading Terminal Market (after walking through the lobby of 1234 Market after getting off the el, of course ;-) before returing north via Peter Pan Trailways. Now normally, I take NJT/Septa to and from Newark, but I felt like riding the bus today.
*I was originally going to ride the R5 to Villanova, walk to the Route 100 station, ride that to Norristown and return on the R6.
Well, I've already planned out another Philadelphia itenerary I hope to execute sometime in December. It includes University City, West Chester, King of Prussia and Chestnut Hill. I've been to the latter two places once before, and I'm dying to go back - KoP, while it is "just a mall", is one of the best ones I've been to. And Chestnut Hill is just beautiful, no other word to describe it.
I tell you, every time I visit Philadelphia, I fall more and more in love with the area...
I love that city, it is a really cool mass transit system.
2002 trip
2002 trip
2002 trip
Mark
BTW, on our trips Cab Rides are not assured, but wired things like that (that shoppe tours) do crop a disproportionate number of times when chuchubob and I team up.
And SEPTA is a railfans dream. For all its practical commuting problems, and there are a lot of them, for pure joyriding its great. There are two very distinct subway lines (plus PATCO). We have three very different interpretations of the light rail theme (subway-surface trolleys, suburban routes 101 and 102, and the unique route 100 light rail rapid transit line). Plus there are miles and miles of regional rail commuter lines. Here is Philly we know this, and I hope the railfans in New York and other places get the opportunity to swing by and sample what we have at least once. You won't be dissappointed.
Mark
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Peace,
ANDEE
Los Angeles subway in Yahoo! commercial
Mark
This suggestion usually makes people angry, but I really think that some of those little used stations should be closed, as they are net time-wasters and money-wasters.
I will not mention any names, for fear of retribution, but I suggest looking at the Pelham line and the Canarsie line for examples.
If a couple of the Rockaway stations were closed, would be necessarily be a huge deal to reopen them some years from now if the area becomes redeveloped? Some minimal level of maintenance might be all that's needed.
Bowery will probably never recover the kind of volume it was originally designed for, because other stations with better connections are very close by. Still, it does help a neighborhood that is relatively under-served.
As David pointed out, 18th & Bdwy actually gets more use than quite a few other stations on the line, so closing it wouldn't make sense at all.
Everyone knocks 18th, as though it's analogous to the closed station on the 6. It isn't. All of the other 14th Street stations run north from 14th, with exits north of 14th. The 1/2/3/9 station is entirely south of 14th.
To those who think that IRT local stations are spaced too closely, while IND local stations are spaced more appropriately, why do IRT locals get so much more crowded than IND locals? One would expect that IRT passengers would be unwilling to make all those stops and would gravitate toward the express, while IND passengers wouldn't mind making them. In fact, the opposite happens. Why? My hypothesis is that IRT local stations, spaced at useful distances from each other, are largely responsible for large amounts of dense, subway-oriented development, and that development in turn fills up those locals; while IND local stations aren't able to attract much dense development, since large areas along the line are inconveniently far from a station. The IND does a great job for those living far, far away, but those who live far, far away are going to take the express no matter how distantly spaced the local stations are.
Purely local stops (one where express trains run thru or bypass):
- Rockway Ave/Fulton St. C
- 163rd/Amsterdam Ave C
- Franklin St/Varick St. 1/9
- 163rd St/St Mary's 6
- Cortelyou Rd. Q
- 155th St/8th Ave. B/D
Even Avenue H has more customers than BeverLEY.
David
But local stations aren't supposed to be busy. Perhaps a more interesting question is about the least busy express station. That honor goes to Willets Point, believe it or not, with 1,224,846 fare registrations in 2000, followed by E. 180th Street, with 1,440,675 fare registrations. (I'm defining an express station as a station where all trains stop on a section of a line with local and express service.)
When you consider that trains are packed before the games, it tells you that the parkways will be even more so.
Then there's the off-season, and not too many people use it then, just the smart people who park there to ride the train.
There are two major museums and a very nice, heavily used park at that station too. I'd imagine they draw a decent number of visitors.
The other one is the Queens Museum, former home of the United Nations.
To be honest, I would think one of those stations along the Queens Blvd. line, but I bet they see some sort of form of crowds.
A local station, that, for all practical purposes, seem deserted and lacking in crowds, even during rush hours.
I disagree, wholeheartedly. That claim is more based on the neighborhood that serves it. What about local stations that have connections to other subway lines? One good example is 74th/Broadway on the 7. It's a 'local' stop yet it connects to the grand, yet complex Jackson Heights/Roosevelt Avenue complex. This station complex gets tons of passengers every day, morso that the MTA is giving it a much needed rehabilitation. They already managed to open the main stairway on the Manhattan-bound platform. Gorgeous.
The least used local station on QBL: I think 75th Avenue but also 36th st on weekends is lightly used too.
Incognito
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we got the Second Avenue Subway, which we stocked exclusively with Redbirds, BMT Standards and Triplexes, and a widened Lo-V or two. Wicked cool, huh? :-)
Imagine that you are in NY on holiday, and you have a slightly petulant teenager with you. He is a small town boy, and due to watching too much TV and too many films, he is convinced that everyone in NY is going to rob him, especially on the subway.
Could anyone recommend a nice safe first subway trip in Manhattan to put his mind at rest, for example between the hotel and a good tourist attraction?
The hotel is near W31 and Broadway.
Thanks in advance, and thanks to all thouse who answered my St George question.
Mark
Or walk over to 34th St (You can also enter via the Manhattan Mall at 32nd St - 6th Av and Broadway cross at this point) and take the uptown B, D, F or V to Rockefeller Center (47-50th Sts).
A word of advice to give to any hesitant tourist - act as if you belong where you are (even if you are totally lost). You will find that you will be less likely to be accosted. If you ask for directions be more "matter-of-fact" in your attitude.
Confused people tend to stand out and attract miscreants (a nice word for thugs/thieves etc).
Have a nice visit.
Us transplants really like that.
Pardon? Must be a Brooklynite saying that.
So take the (Q) to Brighton Beach (get a Diamond Q for a nice fast express ride through one of the prettiest lines in the city, and then get a bus the rest of the way to Coney Island. There is a free shuttle bus clearly marked.
Come back on the (W) Train.
Elias
Signage is clearer in the opposite direction.
I did a three bridge bike trip with my son - From Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge, then biked to the Manhattan Bridge, stopped to watch trains, then over the Manhattan Bridge to Manhattan, then via local streets to the Williamsburg Bridge back to Brooklyn, and then back (stopping to watch more trains, of course).
--Mark
Maybe during the season but right now, the boardwalk at Coney Island is empty. You can do the entire boadwalk on bicycle in about 15 minutes. If you're going to walk, it will take you close to an hour and a half!
I took the train with my bike on board to get to the boardwalk. This weekend, it's going to be very cold so you better dress warmly. (Gloves, hat and ear muffs)
Some parts of Astro Land were open like Shoot the Geek, arcades and Nathans. You can see alot more of New York city by bicycle. Brooklyn was a blast.
Mark
Would a teenager from small town America even have heard of Astoria? Before I moved to the East Coast I knew the where the five boroughs were, and I could point to Harlem and the Lower East Side on a map, but I'd never heard of Astoria.
Of course, my limited knowledge of NYC geography was still miles ahead of whay any New Yorker could have been expected to know about Mississippi geography.
Quick: where's the Delta?
Mark
From the original post, I'm guessing that we're dealing with a "won't try new stuff" personality type here. I myself always like to get people to go out to the boroughs, and my eight-year-old niece is now an expert on the difference between scribbling and tagging, but a lot of people would just say, "I'm missing Rockefeller Center for THIS?"
At Hartsfield Airport. LOL!
In the Water!
Only during a flood. In Mississippi "The Delta" doesn't refer to the mouth of the Mississippi River. To be sure, the mouth of the Mississippi River isn't in the state of Mississippi, but rather it's in Louisiana. The Delta refers to the area in western Mississippi stretching from Vicksburg north to Memphis, a flat floodplain with the most fertile farmland in the state.
Mark
Another line you can take is the southbound "A" train. You can catch this at 34th and 8th Ave. This train offers fast express (speedwise-not timewise) that goes pass Kennedy Airport (however, to actually get to the airport, you would have to change for a shuttle bus), crosses a large bay that takes 15 minutes to do at top speed, runs through a nature preserve and also runs right along side a beach, Rockaway Beach. A couple things about the "A" you have to take heed to:
1. There are two different "A" trains. You can ONLY take the "A" train marked "Far Rockaway".
2. If you are in NY on or before the weekend of Nov. 15th, don't even bother.
3. If traveling Mon thru Fri, you would have to take the Lefferts "A" train to Rockaway Blvd and transfer for a shuttle to complete your trip.
4. Leave early because a round trip on the "A" is at least three hours.
A third line you could take is the "7" train to Flushing. You can catch this train at 42nd St and Bway (Times Sqare). Unlike the "A", the "7" is a very short route-only 21 minutes to Flushing, but one not to be missed. You can see some very nice NY skyline shots from this line, has a great el run, it runs right pass Shea Stadium and into Flushing. The "7" train is a true example of what NY is suppose to be-a melting pot of different races and cultures. Pay close attention while traveling along the el and you will see storefront marquees in all types of languages. When you get to Flushing, please get off and walk down Main St. It's like being in another country. Most of the businesses are Korean. You will see all types of fruit and vegetable markets, Korean restaurants and an abundance of other shops. If you are into buses (yes I know this isn't Bustalk LOL), you will have a choice of 19 bus routes from 3 different bus companies plying up and down Main St.
I hope this helps. Good luck and enjoy. If you have any other questions, please post. If I don't answer, someone else here definately will.
Naaaaaaah.
This is one of the few cities that just by going to different parts of the city is almost the equivalent to going to different parts of the world.
34/6 is the first stop for the B, so you won't encounter much crowding -- and the 81/CPW station has been wonderfully re-done.
CG
If you wanted to venture outside while riding the subway, I'd say to take the Q to Kings Highway and walk along Kings Highway for the feel of an "outer borough" shopping street. Lunch at Adelman's deli is a good bet. Then you could get back on the Q to Brighton Beach and walk to/on the boardwalk, and see what things are like "on the other side of the pond".
--Mark
With all seriousnous(and don't take my name here the wrong way), if you want, I can take him around. I'm probably around the same age as him, 15. I like meetin people and showin off NYC, so it'd be a fun thing for me as well, lol. Please get back to me on this, email me at monkmonk438@hotmail.com
I would add a ride on the Light Rail out of Hoboken. It shows off the skyline and also some of the suburbs that make NYC the great place that it is.
On the way back after the stop at the World Trade Center, go down to South Ferry. A ride on the ferry might be a great experience , too.
We have so much to show to visitors!
I love bringin people around the city. When my family came up from Puerto Rico, we went all around.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Alternate: Take the F train to Roosevelt Island, then ride the Roosevelt Island Sky Tram back to Manhattan.
Mark
Keith Lowe's "Tunnel Vision" takes place in London and involves a bet made between a bunch of "rabid" train watchers about who could ride the entire system within a fixed time. This is book would have a really strong appeal to buffs.
Michael Daly's "Underground", as I remember, is a thriller set in the subways. There are either terrorists or madmen who have planted bombs in the system, and one of the good guys knows the system like the back of his hand. Far from accurate, it still is very intense.
William Dantz's "Nine Levels Down" is a book I never got into, but it is supposed to have a subway theme.
Neal Shasterman's "Downsiders" is another book that I never got into.
Peter Blauner's "The Intruder" is one of my favorites. One of the main characters is a motorman who is losing it and who finally walks off the job and descends into a grim world of the homeless and seriously disturbed. The book really gets into the heads of its characters.
"The Taking of Pelham One Two Three" is based very closely on the book with the same title by John Godey. (Karl B. sent me my copy.)
Time and Again - by Jack Finney
Time travel again, describes nineteenth century New York including many rapid transit mentions.
"The motion of her breasts was neither simple nor harmonic"
It's the Pynchon novel that begins with a description of "Suck Night" at a local bar, when one of the beer taps is encased in a giant foam rubber nipple.
See also Charles Jackson's "The Lost Weekend" (1941)for an excellent description of a hung-over, alcoholic walk uptown on Second Avenue from 55th to 125th Streets, with the el rushing by overhead like "a rocket train from the comics". There are vivid descriptions of what the protagonist sees, like "shop windows shed lambent livid lunar light on gorgeous wop weddings". The repetition of the consonant "l" sound for emphasis is a technique known as "alliteration".
The film version (best picture of 1945)has the uptown walk on Third Avenue, under the Third Avenue El. There is another view of the el after the hero (Don Birnam) escapes from Bellevue Hospital.
Mark
"Is it safe ?"
"The Lost Weekend" also has a description, toward its end, of Don Birnam getting the E at Abingdon Square in Greenwich Village and riding uptown to the 5th Avenue at 53rd St. station near his home. There's also a description of a subway station men's room, and of the bell that used to ring, signalling a train was about to leave the station.
F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby" contains a description of "the eyes of Dr. T. J. Eckleburg" peering out from a billboard in southeast Queens. It reads like it's near where Sunrise Highway diverges from the Belt Parkway in Rosedale, Queens, with the Rosedale LIRR station on Sunrise Highway and Francis Lewis Blvd. nearby.
Sounds like something Howard Stern would have thought of!
Also sounds like the Glasgow Underground.
Mark
1. I remember reading one of my sisters' Nancy Drew books. The protaganist had to take a train to, I think New York. It described a scene where Drew, unfamiliar with how a train sways is assisted by a man in remaining upright. Could have been THE MYSTERY OF THE OLD CLODK, or something like that. The book had been published in the early sixties run of that series.
2. In THE HAPPY HOLLISTERS, first book of the series, it describes the kids waiting for local buses, in their town of Shoreham. The buses seemed to be running on a 10 or 15 minute headway, which always surprised me, even 35 years ago, considering how it was a small town and all.
Mark
fREEDOMLAND (AUTHOR OF cL;OCKERS) HAS NOT QUITE PRECISE "SUBWAY" TRIPS ON patH BY HIS CHARACTERS
oNR OF pATRICIA cORNWELL'S sCARPETTA YARNS HAS A CHASE ALONG THE CATWALK IN THE ny SUBWAY.
aND , A VERY MINOR BUT SIGNIFICANT REFERENCE TO THE bOSTON SYSTEM OF EIGHT DECADES BACK IN h p lOVECRAFT'S SHORT "pICKMAN'S mODEL"
By Placing Timers in this key area, they can slow down the trains enough so that when the train is arriving in the 96th Street vicinity it doesn't stop, go, stop go stop at 96th and then hit every timer. It allows for the trains to be further spaced apart hoping to avoid more delays due to the timers above 96th or for connecting trains waiting at 96 (Remember this is probably going to be temporary until CBTC hits 7th Avenue).
And the 2/3 doesn't crawl between 96th and 110th. It moves a bit slower than on straight track, but it hardly crawls. (That's what happens south of Chambers -- and even there I rarely see backups.) The reason it takes a while to get from 96th to 110th is that it's simply a large distance -- about a mile and a half.
Even if there were frequently congestion, that's no reason to install grade timers that are in effect even when there's no congestion.
The regenerative brakes on the R142's don't work and have been disabled. Consequently, there has been excessive wear on the brake shoes and increased operating expense. Slowing the trains down will lead to less brake shoe wear. One shouldn't expect the TA to solve the braking problem, especially after the warranty period has passed - it isn't their style.
Do you think the regenerative braking system will ever be enabled? If not, should the system be removed from new orders.
What do you think of this idea? Coming into each station have an isolated section of 3rd rail which will take the regen energy and store it. Then the energy could used for use when accelerating on an isolated section of 3rd rail leaving the same station. I suppose there might be a high investment and all kinds of compatibility problems with the other sections of 3rd rail.
I just find it a damn shame that they have not been able to actualize that system. I wonder how many millions of dollars in energy have gone to waste.
I guess in the long run, it doesn't matter. If there were any savings, they'd manage to fritter it away anyway.
What evidence do you have that this is true?
Wrong. Working at TSQ I can tell you the only places we hold for connections are at 14 Street (at long headways only), and at Times Sq. Chambers St AT/D may hold at Chambers depending on conditions. The reasons we may throw the lights on a train at 96th is if there's a problem ahead or the train is really hot and blew the lights at Times Sq.
Sorry bro, you're right. I was just abbreviating Times Sq; because if I did use the TA abbreviation, I wonder how many people would ask "What's TSML"?
Times Square Main Line?
(an educated guess)
The Van Courtlandt Madman
· If the problem is bottleneck due to timers north of 96th, adding timers here will only shift the problem further south. Basically, if that is the case, the timers north of 96th reduce the capacity of the line, and thus the only solution would be to reduce the headway, or eliminate the timers north of 96th. I highly DOUBT that is the problem in the first place, I have never had it happen to me riding the 2/3 line, but if that IS the problem, this is NOT a solution.
So your reasoning is diddly squat.
And, at the moment, CBTC isn't ANYwhere in the NYC subway system. It's under construction on the Canarsie Line but not active yet.
David
Thanks
p.s. please, don't say "Oh you can find the work on the train!" ;-)
We would have to say that because that is the only place you will find them these days. The Transit Museum was sold out of these months ago and there are no plans to print any more of them.
There was an online picture (13KB) at the TM website but it was removed after the supply was exhausted. I have that and I will email it to you. If there is something that you can do with it fine (let everyone else know).
Wow, good thing I got mine in late August;-)
What a bargain! I haven't paid 75 cents for the bus in nearly 20 years! The boat charge is extreamly expensive at $6.00 dollars for a one-way trip. How far does this boat travel?
The article also quotes, "$7 a day parking near Fan Pier." In the winter, you should add in medical costs for the frostbite you will get walking from S. Boston to the financial district. ;-)
I haven't paid anything for a bus when transferring to/from the subway for five years!
I notice the article mentions nothing about the inbound fare on the Highland or Braintree branches, currently $2.50 and $2.00, respectively.
"This morning, 07NOV, Acela Express Train 2151, crossing from Track 1 to Track 2 on Metro-North just west of Stamford, CT at CP232, snagged the overhead wire, tearing off the pantograph of leading power car 2025 and damaging the overhead at the crossover.
Due to this incident, and with a track already out of service for construction, it was necessary to single-track at the end of the morning rush from CP229 to CP234. Metro-North reports 32 delayed trains.
To rescue Amtrak's crippled pride and joy, Metro-North sent a 45-year old FL9, the 2026 in New Haven paint. Wonder if anyone had a camera handy as the Bombardier speedster was ignominiously hauled off by the old EMD.
The FL9 pulled Train 2151 back to Stamford, the debris was cleared from the roof of the disabled power car, and the Acela Express departed 3hr 2min late, being pushed to NY Penn by the trailing power car. "
only reason some lasted 49 years is cause till 1996 there was no replacement, and nobody wanted to built a locomotive with 15.3 clearance on top even without third rail.
GE was up to chalange and succeded with an engine that actualy runs on third rail, not just on third paper.
and you should know, because you have "rail nuts"
http://www.railfan.net/lists/listthumb.cgi?erielack-11-08-03
Scroll Down to the FL9 Pic M&E #488 at East Dover NJ
(a) General requirements. (1) Except for steam locomotives equipped
as provided in Sec. 231.16 of this part, all locomotives used in
switching service built after March 31, 1977, must be equipped as
provided in this section.
(2) Except for steam locomotives equipped as prescribed in
Sec. 231.16 of this part, all locomotives built prior to April 1, 1977,
used in switching service after September 30, 1979, shall be equipped as
provided in this section. Each carrier shall so equip forty percent (40
percent) of such locomotives by October 1, 1977, seventy percent (70
percent) by October 1, 1978, and all such locomotives by October 1,
1979.
(3) Locomotives without corner stairway openings may not be used to
perform any switching service after September 30, 1979 except passenger
car switching service at passenger stations.
(b) Definitions. (1) Locomotive used in switching service means a
locomotive regularly assigned to perform yard switching service.
(2) Switching service means the classification of cars according to
commodity or destination; assembling of cars for train movements;
changing the position of cars for purposes of loading, unloading, or
weighing, placing of locomotives and cars for repair or storage; or
moving of rail equipment in connection with work service that does not
constitute a road movement. However, this term does not include movement
of a train or part of a train within yard limits by the road locomotive
and the placement of locomotives or cars in a train or their removal
from a train by the road locomotive while en route to the train's
destination.
[[Page 415]]
(3) Safety tread surface means that portion of anti-skid surface of
a switching step that actually is contacted by a shoe or boot.
(4) Uncoupling mechanism means the arrangement for operating the
coupler lock lift, including the uncoupling lever and all other
appurtenances that facilitate operation of the coupler.
(c) Switching step--(1) Number. Each locomotive used in switching
service must have four (4) switching steps. (See Plate A)
(2) Dimensions. Each such switching step must have--
(i) On locomotives built after March 31, 1977, a minimum width of
twenty-four (24) inches and a minimum depth of twelve (12) inches,
except when necessary to accommodate the turning arc of a six-wheel
truck and its appurtenances, the inside edge of the switching step shall
have a minimum width of seventeen (17) inches (See Plate B);
(ii) On locomotives built prior to April 1, 1977, a minimum width of
eighteen (18) inches, and a minimum depth of eight (8) inches;
(iii) A backstop, solid or perforated, with minimum height of
backstop of six (6) inches above the safety tread surface; and
(iv) A height of not more than nineteen (19) inches, preferably
fifteen (15) inches, measured from top of rail to the safety tread
surface.
(3) Location. Switching steps must be located on each side near each
end of a locomotive used in switching service. The bottom step of the
stairway at these locations may also serve as a switching step if it
meets all of the requirements of this section.
(4) Manner of application. (i) Switching steps must be supported by
a bracket at each end and fastened to the bracket by two bolts or rivets
of at least one-half (\1/2\) inch diameter or by a weldment of at least
twice the strength of a bolted attachment.
(ii) Vertical clearance must be unobstructed, except for minor
intrusions created by mechanical fasteners or a small triangular gusset
plate at the platform level walkway, and free for use for at least a
distance of eighty-four (84) inches over a portion of the switching step
that is not less than seven (7) inches deep by eighteen (18) inches wide
on locomotives built prior to April 1, 1977, and of not less than seven
(7) inches deep by twenty-four (24) inches wide on locomotives built
after March 31, 1977.
(5) Material. (i) Steel or other material of equivalent or better
strength and deflection characteristics, anti-skid, safety design,
having at least fifty percent (50%) of the tread surface as open space
must be used.
(ii) When the step material creates a second level safety tread
surface, the maximum difference in surface levels may not exceed three-
eighths (\3/8\) of an inch.
(iii) The safety tread surface must extend to within one-half (\1/
2\) inch of each edge of the step.
(6) Visibility. The outer edge of each switching step that is not
illuminated must be painted a contrasting color. On locomotives built
after March 31, 1977, switching steps shall be illuminated; on multiple-
unit locomotive consists used in switching service, only the front
switching steps of the leading unit and the rear switching steps of the
trailing unit must be illuminated.
(d) End footboards and pilot steps. (1) Except for steam locomotives
equipped as provided in Sec. 231.16, locomotives used in switching
service built after March 31, 1975, may not be equipped with end
footboards or pilot steps.
(2) Except for steam locomotives equipped as provided in
Sec. 231.16, locomotives used in switching service built before April 1,
1975, may not be equipped with end footboards or pilot steps after
September 30, 1978. Whenever end footboards or pilot steps are removed
from a locomotive, the uncoupling mechanism and horizontal end handholds
of the locomotive must be modified to comply with paragraphs (f) and (g)
of this section.
(e) Vertical handholds. Each switching step must be provided with
two (2) vertical handholds or handrails, one on each side of the
switching step stairway.
(1) On locomotives built after March 31, 1977, each vertical
handhold must--
(i) Be constructed of wrought iron, steel or other material of
equivalent strength and durability that is at least one (1) inch
diameter and be securely
[[Page 416]]
fastened to the locomotive with one-half (\1/2\) inch or larger bolts or
rivets;
(ii) Begin not less than six (6) inches nor more than thirty-two
(32) inches above the safety tread surface of the switching step; on
units with high snowplows, each must begin not more than thirty-six (36)
inches above the safety tread surface of the switching step;
(iii) Extend upward from switching step surface at least forty-eight
(48) inches;
(iv) Be painted in a contrasting color to a height of at least
forty-eight (48) inches above the safety tread surface of the switching
step; and
(v) Provide at least two and one-half (2\1/2\) inches of usable hand
clearance throughout its entire length.
(2) On locomotives built before April 1, 1977, each vertical
handhold must--
(i) Be constructed of wrought iron, steel or other material of
equivalent strength and durability that is at least seven-eighths (\7/
8\) inch in diameter and be securely fastened with one-half (\1/2\) inch
or larger bolts or rivets;
(ii) Begin not less than five (5) inches nor more than thirty-two
(32) inches above the safety tread surface; on units with high
snowplows, each must begin not more than thirty-six (36) inches above
the safety tread surface;
(iii) Extend upward from safety tread surface of the switching step
at least forty-eight (48) inches;
(iv) Be painted in a contrasting color to a height of at least
forty-eight (48) inches above the safety tread surface of the switching
step; and
(v) Provide at least two and one-half (2\1/2\) inches usable hand
clearance throughout its entire length.
(f) Uncoupling mechanisms. Each locomotive used in switching service
must have means for operating the uncoupling mechanism safely from the
switching step as well as from ground level. No part of the uncoupling
mechanism may extend into the switching step or stairway opening or end
platform area when the mechanism is in its normal position or when it is
operated. (See Plate A)
(g) Horizontal end handholds. Each locomotive used in switching
service must have four (4) horizontal end handholds.
(1) Each horizontal end handhold must--
(i) Be constructed of wrought iron, steel or other material of
equivalent strength and durability that is at least five-eighths (\5/8\)
inch in diameter and be securely fastened to the locomotive with one-
half (\1/2\) inch or larger bolts or rivets;
(ii) Be located not less than thirty (30) inches nor more than fifty
(50) inches above the top of rail with its outer end not more than 16
inches from the side of the locomotive; on units with a high snowplow
that makes normal end handhold location inaccessible, end handhold shall
be located on top of plow blade, with the center of the handhold not
more than fifty-three (53) inches above the top of rail, and be in line
with the slope of the plow blade;
(iii) Be at least fourteen (14) inches long; and
(iv) Provide at least two (2) inches, preferably two and one-half
(2\1/2\) inches, usable hand clearance throughout its entire length.
(2) An uncoupling lever may also serve as a horizontal end handhold
if it complies with the requirements of this paragraph. When an
uncoupling lever also serves as the horizontal end handhold, it is
considered to be securely fastened if its securement brackets are
attached to the locomotive by one-half (\1/2\) inch or larger bolts or
rivets and its movement between those brackets is limited to the
rotation necessary for performance of the uncoupling function.
Note the undefined qualifier "regularly" and the second part of 2 is a giant loophole.
Be that as it may, someone bent the rules.
However, this term does not include movement of a train or part of a train within yard limits by the road locomotive and the placement of locomotives or cars in a train or their removal from a train by the road locomotive while en route to the train's destination.
The operations I observed one weekend could be seen to fall within that exception.
3) Locomotives without corner stairway openings may not be used to
perform any switching service after September 30, 1979 except passenger car switching service at passenger stations.
(b) Definitions. (1) Locomotive used in switching service means a
locomotive regularly assigned to perform yard switching service.
(2) Switching service means the classification of cars according to
commodity or destination; assembling of cars for train movements;
changing the position of cars for purposes of loading, unloading, or
weighing, placing of locomotives and cars for repair or storage; or
moving of rail equipment in connection with work service that does not constitute a road movement. However, this term does not include movement of a train or part of a train within yard limits by the road locomotive and the placement of locomotives or cars in a train or their removalfrom a train by the road locomotive while en route to the train's
destination.
and YARD limits has nothing to do with Yards but is merly a swiching limit extension were no form D or signals are required when permision of Dispatcher or Block operator are obtained.
Regards,
Jimmy
2/5 line poster.
I don't see what the big deal is...
Perhaps they should rename both Gun Hill and Pelham Pkwy into Gun Hill West or Gun Hill East. Pelham Pkwy/Bronx Zoo on the 2 line is a viable suggestion while Pelham Pkway East can be used on the mainline 5. If it works for the Mount Vernon MNRR stations, so can NYC transit.
I would connect the line to the R in Brooklyn, though. Better to keep it B Division.
Glimmer: The bellmouths that you see south of Whitehall Street were for Construction Route #32 "Battery Park-East River-Atlantic Avenue Route." If built it would have connected the Lower Broadway Line in Manhattan with Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/031106/photos_pl_afp/031106224026_ddzfei4o_photo0&e=13
Wesley Clark photo
And that would get you this:
Wesley Clark photo
Mark
If you want to make the link the way chuchubob kindly did for us, you'd type this:
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/031106/photos_pl_afp/031106224026_ddzfei4o_photo0&e=13">Wesley Clark photo</a>
And that would get you this:
Wesley Clark photo
Mark
The MTA is selling parts from redbird, they can be found here:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales_new1.htm
Some of them are not cheap, but if I have $$$ i might want to buy the "strap" ;-)
I still dont' understand the quantities though. The numbers look small.
That's what I hope to do with it someday - meanwhile its just sitting in the cellar ;-)
Koi
PATH WTC Construction
Enjoy. T-Minus 15 days and counting to launch.
Sorry about that.
Yes... but Bell Boulevard is not one of them.
I suppose it could be if my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line is not built.
I am a little slow to build the (7) longer, because it is already a busy route that is filled to the max.
Or of course, the Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Subway...
Elias
Mostly by passengers transferring at Main Street from buses from points east. The demand would shift from Main Street to the individual stations east of Flushing.
Extend it to west from its current terminal at Times Square (41 St-Broadway) to Javits Center (11 Av and 36 St). Then south along the West Side Highway to Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn, a West Side trunk line.
stops along West Side Highway:
23 St/11Av (Chelsea) (Chelsea Piers)
14 St (future transfer to L)
Christopher St (PATH)
Canal St-Holland Tunnel
Chambers St
Battery Park City-WTC
Once in Brooklyn, the 7 will extend east into neighborhoods not well served by rail transit. It will travel east through Flatbush, Midwood, Flatlands, Canarsie, Starrett City, Spring Creek, City Line, which all have limited rail service. Future extentions may include service to JFK.
Suppose each one ran on a 20 minute headway at night,
That would give each trunk line a 10 min headway all night long.
People out on the distal ends of the lines will quickly learn the schedules.
Elias
: )
The 3 can run express at night in Manhattan if this were to be done along with the 2 night express.
Of course during rush hours many <5> trains will still run to/from New Lots Avenue(if the 2/5 don't switch in the Bronx) and Bowling Green(or possibly South Ferry)
Why? As far as Franklin Avenue is concerned, nothing is changed by this.
Both the 2 and the 5 make all of the stops on Nostrand Avenue, or else, the (5) can run express on Nostrand Avenue and just blow by the skipped stops. But really the stops do need the existing level of service, so basically, no express stops on Nostrand.
Elias
Doing it this way just means three fairly simple extensions, mostly elevated, with no additional numbers of trains running through Manhattan. (You just need more vehicles to cover the extra miles.
I built a yard out by the air station.
Elias
:-) Andrew
IRT service could look like that:
(2) Utica Late Nights to New Lots
(3) Brooklyn Marine Park except Late Nights
(4) Manhatten Beach
(5) New Lots except Late Nights
(6) Late Nights to Brooklyn Marine Park
Basically, this is correct. Yes, it *really* *could* be done, after all they can build them under RIVERS... but the cost of keeping the water out is not worth the effort. The Line is elevated (using parts of the Bay Ridge ROW to gain elevation).
The Nostrand Avenue Line goes back under ground to get under the Belt Parkway, and to be underground in the waterfron and Manhattan Beach areas.
Utica Avenue is also elevated.
Problem was in the past the water as you say, and objections to elevateds.
But these are not your great-great-great-grandfather's elevateds.
These are on nice concrete risers, fully sound proofed, and open to letting the most light possible down to the street. These are also wider streets.
Elias
As for maps, I use Microsoft Streets and Trips. (Costs under $40. at Staples &ct.) You can zoom in or out nicely, though if you cut and paste a zoomed out version, you will not get the street details.
It will allow you to select a section of a map and make an html of it, but I do not do this, I cut and then paste to PhotoShop, and save it as a .gif.
The lines are drawn right on the Streets and Trips program, you can choose line width, and color, I use the random shape tool to place the lines. You can save the maps in .est format, but that is not a graphic file, it is simply a data file that can be read by Streets and Trips.
I make the IND, the IRT, and the BMT on separate maps, then I open a second copy of Streets and trips and I can cut an paste the routes into a consolidated map.
From that I can draw my new lines, but then copy and paste them to a blank copy of Streets so that I can have a map of that one line only.
it works reall well. The .est files are small, I could share them with you but you would need to be running a copy of Streets and Tips in order to read them.
It is a fun program to use.
Elias
The program covers the whole world, but street by street details in only US and Canada... Doesn't even show London...
Elias
585868
577985
577566
568547
559973
551096
549429
542984
542931
542987
542886
542313
542299
542287
542087
466825
Mind you, these are threads HE STARTED, not including the responses. Please kill this thread.
What the heck is going on?
Did you expect them to stay in the Corona yards for the remander of eternity?
: ) Elias
but where in the Bronx? 239? Unionport? Councourse?
But I have heard that they have not the space at Corona.
Elias
Richardton.
My photo is at the bottom of our homepage...
Can you tell that it was taken in an R-9?
Elias
Yes, it is true, here is another shot of the arnine in Branford. Note the corregated wall at the Avenue L station.
Elias
well, duhh.
The Triplex's were vandalized ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean the R-1, R-4, and R-7A :)
Regards,
Jimmy
The museum didn't seem to have changed too much.
Michael
Washington, DC
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/134645p-119991c.html
Good news.
The deal: New Yorkers stay on their side except for sporting events at weekend trips to the Newport Mall. New Jerseyites can come to NYC, but they must leave by 6PM unless attending a show or movie and they must buy their lunch there.
Come on.. The Newport Mall isn't that great except for the HBLR! You got to come to Bennie's in Hoboken for the Pizza at least!
New "JERKYITES" should stay there, in the sewer, where they belong. JMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're thinking of NORTH Jerkeyans. Many South Jerseyans are decent people, and the rest went to Baltimore for grad school.
Pax,
BOB
(a pax on you!)
"Welcome aboard PATH. This is Christopher Street. Next stop: 8th and Market. Watch the closing doors..."
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Just one question: are free transfers between the two systems included here?
Question: Who's going to absorb this loss? The MTA or PATH?
When I was using both sytems every day, I would purchase the Unlimted and the $40.00 QuickCard each month. If the Unlimited's are allowed, I would never need to buy another QuickCard again.
Of course, this would be a boom to New Jersey relative to New York, since more New Jersey residents use the system. Thus it would be inequitable. But the Port Authority could offset it in a number of ways. For example, PATH fares could be raised to, and pegged to, subway levels. With fewer airport profits used for the PATH, those profits could instead be used for a lower fare on Airtrain, and perhaps for building the rest of the system the PA promised when the passenger facility charge was adopted.
(http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=586523)
Thats the sort of non-news padding I have come to expect from the Daily News.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Under what circumstances will a free transfer NOT apply?
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
The fare is $1.67 for the purposes of any discussion on this thread.
Every couple of weeks I'm hearing about new, positive things happening down there. Little things, but together it means the area is coming back.
Link
Y.K.W.Y.T.O.W.T.S.W.: You knock on the door of an R142, claiming you can do a better job doing the announcements
Y.K.W.Y.T.O.W.T.S.W.: You go around inspecting the dates of the windows on each car of the train to see when they were vandalised
Y.K.W.Y.T.O.W.T.S.W.: Someone asks you how to get to Union Square from Van Cortland Park, and you say "Take the 1/9 to 42nd st, get on the shuttle, take that to Grand Central, and take the 4/5/6 down. Of course, if you really want to see the subway..."
I am too obsessed with the subway. That's why I started this thread!
Should read:
"Take the 1/9 to 42nd st, and take any Q, the W, N or R downtown."
Anyway,
Y.K.W.Y.T.O.W.T.S.W.: Your girlfriend calls you to tell you her parents will be out until after midnight and you say, "No, there's a great G.O. on the 2."
I am reminded of a very good sport who accompanied me on a tour of Veracruz on fascinating, but somewhat decrepit streetcars. One even caught fire mid-trip, visible through the floorboards, but dealt with by the crew with pananche.
I can't think of a moral to this story.
I actually did that to a friend last month (It isnt everyday I get to see a R62A on the 2)
(this true story happened last night)
While that may be true, how many of our crowd manage a hot second date?
Honey, how would you like to come with me on this interesting GO. We get to travel Click!
Now the Farewell to the R-32's trip, on the other hand...
You know when the subway has completely gone to pot when...
You see a cop doing dentiti on a storm door with his handgun
You see a TA employee praising a scratchiti artist
You hear teens doing the announcements (this actually happened once...)
Cab keys and brake handles are as easily obtained as MetroCards
The R46 chimes have mutated so far that they now go "Ding, dong...Ding ding, dong dong, ding ding dong... dong ding ding... etc..."
The R142s have to get GOHd because of frequent slashing of suspension airbags
--Julian
P.S.
This is what happened when a kid did an announcement...
SF bound 1 train approaches Dyckman St, and on the speakers comes...
"Yo! Diz iz Dyckman street! You hear me, mah peeps? DYCKMAN STREET!"
In the tunnel to 191st street, the kid again says, "Yo! 1-9-1 comin' up! Dat's mah stop!" (before the 191st street closing). When the kid got off, you heard the real conductor sigh.
How do you know this wasn't the new - local dialect - official announcement.
--Mark
76th Street!!!!!!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Sorry, you had my hysterical.
"R36 9685 on the 7" got it right. It is altered in Paint Shop Pro 8.
www.forgotten-ny.com
1. LIRR Port Washington line missing
2. Statue of Liberty in Background
3. Queensboro? Bridge missing
BTW, if I can't get the permits, and I attempt to photograph within MBTA property, what will happen if an employee or police officer catches me? Also, is South Station considered Amtrak or MBTA property?
I have never had any problems at South Sta so I am assuming that Amtrak rules take presidence there.
It is most definitely NOT Spring Valley. People should stop posting out of their ass.
Enjoy!
Elias
Inside, I saw that the reverser key was in, and in the forward position, and the brake handle was in "apply." As a qualified streetcar operator, I knew how easy it would be anyone to accidently (or purposefully) move the brake handle just a few inches, and away goes the car.
That's certainly sloppy practice. When I was training on streetcars at IRM, I had to exit the car and put the pole back on the wire when we dewired at one point. The first time I did this, since I was new at it, I left the reverser key in. When I got back in the car the instructor asked me "okay, what's wrong?" He had removed the reverser key and put it in his pocket, to make the point that it could have been stolen by a passenger while I was outside the car, and it took me a second or two to realize that it was missing. A good lesson in what NOT to do!
Of course, if this car had standard straight air brakes, leaving the handle in "apply" is VERY poor operating procedure; the handle ought to be left in "lap"! Oh, well...
Frank Hicks
As a supervisor for many years, I've done exacxtly that to a motorman who leaves the reverser (or in Baltimore term, the reverse bar) on the controller, in an operating direction or in neutral.
When the motorman (usually it becomes so ingraded that the bar comes off, even to set a switch) gets back to the car, everybody plays dumb - for a little while. It's funny to watch the guy go nuts, with a "where did I put my reverse bar" look. After 5 or so minutes, out comes the supervisor, bar in the back pocket, asking the poor schook "loose anything?" Usually the motorman replies with a sheepish shrug.
Do it once, that's all we need. Rarely a repeat performance.
We do have a slightly different practice at Branford with certain cars under certain circumstances; I won't detail it here, but suffice it to say that the car isn't going to go anywhere then either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are plenty of things you can do to disable a car. At IRM, the people training on CTA 4000-series "L" cars have as their final test the assignment of moving with a green indicator light a car that's been carefully "prepared" (read as: sabotaged) by the trainer. That involves checking every switch and fuse that can disable any of the door or interlock functions. I don't know what all can be done to rig a 4000, but there are a ton of switches throughout the train that can disable various things. Even on older and simpler equipment, kicking out an MS switch or something will leave any neophyte motorman without a clue as to why his car isn't moving. Good times... :-)
Frank Hicks
How often do the 4000s come out at IRM? How many of them can be run as a train without tripping any breakers? I would love to ride on them someday; I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, but never rode on them in Chicago.
Except when it's raining, the 4000's are generally operating every Saturday and every Sunday between Memorial Day and Labor Day. We typically run a two-car train, but three-car trains can be operated without any problem and are the norm for Day Out With Thomas weekends. The "L" car crew is working on getting our fourth 4000, the center-door "Baldy", operational.
Frank Hicks
When leaving the car?? I would say it is better to leave the handle
in apply, this way a slight leak in the brake cylinder packing or
brake valve will not cause the car to self-release.
When I saw the reaction to that post, I figured that I have been away from the handles on a regular basis for a while and had gotten out of touch.
Thanks for confirming my initial instincts.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Here's the stumper...and as i have heard speculation on another posting group and from seeing the picture...I think the press made a mistake and the car wasn't actually at 17th and Castro.
Speculation on this Yahoo group was that the motorman was actually waiting for his car to be swapped out for a PCC. MUNI doesn't like running the Milan cars after 9pm because of the loud wheel noises.
Unless i am not seeing something correctly, the car was on the outbound track pointed in the "outbound" direction. If the car was at 17th and Castro, it would have "back-poled" all the way down the hill to Church St(?). I think the switches could have been aligned correctly so that it could have made the turn onto Church heading in the outbound direction, but the car is facing in the "wrong direction" for that to be true.
The story is the car was actually at the block before (17th and Noe maybe?). F-Line pull-in's drop their passengers there, then turn left, and follow the J line in to Balboa Park and the Geneva Yard. My theory is the motorman was waiting for the swap there(which is on a downhill)...his switches were aligned properly, and that's how the car rolled away heading in the right direction.
Again...just my theory...haven't been able to confirm or deny this....yet.
Anticipated return is via P&W (SEPTA route 100) and Market St el. If anyone would like to join me, additional railfanning will be considered.
I returned to Philly on SEPTA Route 100 and got another photograph of two of the Almond Joys in 69th Street yard.
From the SEPTA Regionhal Rail platform at 30th Street, I photographed Acela Express motor # 2037 in Race Street yard, and I photographed it again from the train.
You know, after butchering the <6> into something that is running 1 HOUR less, and is very infrequent, the MTA now provides extra crap to go along with the steaming poo that the <6> is, in its currnet state. Why do they feel the need to ALWAYS hold the <6> for whatever local happens to be showing the hell up? And don't tell me for "switching purposes", because that just isn't the case. At Hunts point, tonight we were held for 4 minutes to connect with the 6 local that we passed at cypress avenue. The <6> was held for an additional 15 seconds after the local left the station. Then at parkchester, we were held for a nice solid 6 minutes until the local showed up, the same freaking, slow traveling local that we were held in the station for at hunts point av! There was NO train on the layup track, and no reason for us to be held there.
The same crap happens in the mornings, and they hold the express at hunts point , allowing the fuggin train to get even more packed than it got at parkchester, because of all the local passengers forcing their way onto a train that had absolutely minimal room to remotely comfortable without being pushed onto someone else. The <6> sits there with those stupid "Stand clear of the closing doors please" and "Do not hold the doors" announcements playing endelssly, while the CR is repeatedly trying to close the doors, while the second local is pulling in, and some moron that I'd love to slug is saying " HOLD THE DOORS, I'M TRYING TO GET ON!" Hey buddy, would it kill you to wait for the next express that is probably closeby considering how long this train has been delayed!?!?!?
I could go on, but honestly, I don't care if the MTA decides to kill the <6>, it could take this POS "Manhattanbound... six express train" and shove it right back up their asses where it came from in the first place, because it is nothing more that absolute shit! EVERY DAY, THE SAME CRAP, Not once in a while, but EVERY DAY. Christ, do they want people to hate the <6> before they finally kill it, because if that is their campaign than it is working really fucking well.
[/end rant]
Sorry about the swearing.
To know that you will never willingly ride the 2,4,5.6 or 7 again proves to me that the R142's done enough.
Peace,
ANDEE
And then let me go just one more step further. Since MTA has just about used up every letter of the alphabet for the BMT/IND division, and IRT only had used 7-8 numbers, I recommend switching the whole route numbering so that now BMT/IND has numbers, and IRT has letters. Some people will say the new route numbers will be confusing, but once upon a time the BMT had numbers before it had letters- I think.
If MTA did all these things, gave some of their employees better training, and LOWER the fares to about a nickel, as well as with PATH, HBLR, and the Newark subway, I'd say NYC would completely be on top of the world in transit. And to make another suggestion to boost ridership, we keep the new rolling stock running during the weekdays, and on weekends we have completely refurbished or replicated versions of old rolling stock from the R-32, Redbirds, and ALL the old subway cars in service. Some people will disagree with me on this, but at least everybody will be happy. What do you say, folks?
Well, there's always East New York.
You have the N/W running over Northern Boulevard and the E/F/V/G/R running under it.
Or AirTrain coming up the Van Wyck to Jamaica Station while the E train crosses the Van Wyck underneath it to join the Archer Av line?
Or how about the place where one L train track is above ground and the other is below ground?
The LIRR Brooklyn branch and the A train are probably the best instance of two seperate rail lines, having at least some stations at the same crossing streets, running very close to each other going in the same direction, at least from E.N.Y. to Nostrand Avenue. Along with the MN to 125 and the Lexington Avenue subway, these are the two closest lines. The other places where it occurs are for short distances at best.
Never happened. One closed in 1938, the other opened in 1940.
Incognito
Transportation Photographer
carlwal@hotmail.com
But yea, there's a problem. You guys are taken for granted. Stuff like probably wouldn't happen much in newer systems, because they have to make it as user friendly/attractive/properly marketed as possible. Your situation there's plenty of people that's always going to use the system. You do wonder, for every handful of people that get tired of using the train and find other ways, was that more revenue they would've had before any fare hike?
The (2)(and sometimes a few (3)s) handles the local stops though.
The <5> should always be BRONX EXPRESS(unless it is a special off peak <5> or a G.O.), the shoddy r-142 programming dictates it, unless you want (5) local all times, while <5> express middays and rush hours(as a give back, since rush hour express will slightly lose service)
Of course people will complain as they have a Dyre need for express service lol(remember 2000 2/5 express switch).
Pelham Parkway is also busier than E. Tremont Avenue.
David
Some 5 trains go with the 2, well mostly anyway. But yes Dyre has more express service than WPR. Of course if they increased 2 service, the 5 can run express all day in the Bronx(like the 6)
Was it really six minutes? Was it checked with a watch, or was it just a "ballpark estimate?" Were announcements made, and if so, what was said?
David
That's a good question. Last time we had someone else post such a thing, it later came out something to the effect "I didn't time it, but it FELT like 15 minutes."
The problem sometimes is perception and not actual data.
But I would still like to know whether any announcements were made, and, if so, what they were. Again, six minutes sounds like an awfully long duration to hold a train just for a connection no matter what time of day it was (if memory serves, the rule is two minutes, for reason of the train being early if not in order to make a connection). It really does sound as if the train was held for something other than a connection.
David
David
David
Now I told you all the 6 Express was being cut.
Only after I did a 6 Express Extension Drive
No express run anywhere in the system saves 15 minutes. Certainly a short express run like the one on the 6 doesn't come close. Typical savings is about half a minute per stop bypassed, and I don't see 30 local stations between Parkchester and 3rd.
How long do you think the local takes between Parkchester and 3rd?
I will agree not to base everything on the schedule if you will agree not to base everything on perception, which invariably overestimates time savings on expresses. I've heard (separate) claims that the Queens Boulevard express, the Flushing express, the Brighton express, the 7th Avenue express, and the Lexington Avenue express all save about a half hour over their respective locals. Do you agree with any of those claims?
The Lexington av express takes about 15 minutes from Union square (off hours) to 125 and I've got no idea how long the 6 (really) takes.
The whole half hour thing does sound like a bit much though.
The Lex express saves about 10 minutes, and that's about the best you'll find anywhere in the system.
If you'd like you can board a 6 local at buhre avenue on a saturday and time it to 125st, and compare that time to a <6> on a weekday running to 125st. Your numbers will not differ much.
3rd to HP ~6 mins
HP to parchester 2-3 minutes (remember, the R142A are traveling at maximum speed here)
When you have a chance, run this experiment: in the morning, time an express run SB from Parkchester to 3rd, and then time a local run back up to Parkchester. Reverse the experiment in the afternoon. If possible, repeat over a few days.
I'd do it myself, but I live on the 1/9 in Manhattan and I have to be at work in south Brooklyn at 8am, so taking a spin on the 6 in the morning is pretty much out of the question.
FWIW, I have a long commute, and I usually ride the local. I typically board the circle-Q at Times Square at 6:45am, bound for the last stop. Five minutes later the first diamond-Q of the day shows up, but at least 90% of the time the circle-Q gets to Brighton Beach first. (Of the two times I can recall that the diamond-Q got there first, the two trains met at Newkirk once, so I didn't lose anything by getting on the local at Times Square.)
The diamond-6 does not save 15 minutes over the circle-6. It just doesn't pass the sanity test. It saves about 5 minutes, probably a bit less, possibly a little bit more. But on the flip side, with all trains running through to PBP, headways are shorter. That means that you have a shorter wait for a train and you're more likely to get a seat once it comes. You still probably lose 3-4 minutes on average, so I agree that this is a slight service degradation if you're in a big rush -- but if you care more about getting a seat than saving 3-4 minutes, as many do at the end of a long day at work, this is a service improvement. (And it's a definite service improvement for those who use the local stations.)
(6) from 68 Street - Hunter College to Parkchester takes less than 32 minutes.
And another bad <6> moment, one day the <6> didn't even show up, apparently it was LATE, and it came in as a (6) TO PELHAM BAY PK AFTER a (6) TO PARKCHESTER came in.
: )
Mark
: )
Mark
What are some of the excuses given?
1. We can't delay the train.
Bull. The train is going to be delayed one way or another at some points in its journey. One more delay will not change the overall trip time for that train. So why not make this delay one that'll make the local passengers happy?
2. The local doesn't take much more time than the express.
Again, bull. At rush hour, even 10 minutes count. Even 5 minutes count. The infrastructure allows it, the track layout encourages it, the system is based upon the parallel local/express duality. At the very least, come out, for once, with a more honest approach. State that the current operations expertise will not allow for the level of scheduling accuracy required for both services to be run as they could be.
For years, whenever I'd be coming up Fourth Avenue to 59th Street on the R, going to work in Manhattan, and I'd see the N train across the platform just closing its' doors as we arrive I would want to curse out loud. It always seemed almost a vindictive action. As if the motorman and cunductor on the express were getting a big kick out of the whole thing. And I could relate similar situations when I was using the Brighton line.
Has the population grown so unruly that the fear of, I don't know, stampedes on the platform as folks transfer from local to express become such a great fear on the part of the TA? I don't believe it. No, I'm going to continue believing that the main problem is the level of operational expertise has fallen.
That doesn't mean that every Q train of the day has a minute's worth of door holding at each stop.
I guess it's too early in the morning, so I'm having a mental block with this sentence. One more time....
"Must be something in the water along the Pelham line, because I always thought the doors get held everywhere.
1) It was in The Taking of Pelham 123.
2) I don't want the (4) to become local at all times. It's bad enough that my favorite line is local during late nights.
3) It's the only local (Pelham Express in some cases) line that I like in the system (Oh, but then there are the (E), (F), (N), and (L)).
C'mon, topical humor, folks.
Why don't go near the other IRT lines, Salaam. I mean, they don't run the 'birds either, so I guess they're boring too. There is more to a line than some rolling stock. The neighborhoods, the general ride, the people you meet, and the great photo ops. I'll never give up the 7 with the amazing views of Manhattan, especially attained from the 'viaduct' stations and at Queensboro. Not to mention all of the changes its undergoing like a reconstruction at Corona, the possibility of CBTC and an extension and so much more. If you're tired of the 7, YOUR LOSS FRIEND.
Thank you for your patience and understanding...
Incognito
Transportation Photographer
carlwal@hotmail.com
But they were not the same as the 32s, and they do have pressed steel in their construction, unlike the 32s which were 100% stainless.
So, the 38s are showing much more wear and decay than the 32s.
Keeps the Bondo Company in business.
Elias
Gone are the front signs and lights
Gone are the Straphangers
Good thing the couldn't find a way to eliminate the Railfan Window.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
This practice was common in the 80's but AFAIK, it was outlawed.
If you are running too close to your leader, your train will have many seats, while the one following yours will be crowded with passengers who missed your train.
Elias
Nothing is ever held for a connection at 72nd. I live at 86th, so I have to transfer there often, and I quite frequently dash off the express to be greeted by closing doors on the local. They don't hold 5 seconds and they certainly don't hold 5 minutes.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=187302&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=&newsdate=11/7/2003
(no subscription required, no tricks) ...
Is it The City of New York or the MTA or a combination of the two or is there a third choice?
NY state is too big to do such a thing as this. If you thought that the MTA bureaucracy was bad now, just wait until they try something like that. I for one could not envision the Pac-Man logo on buses in the Capitol District nor on those RDCs running on the Syracuse OnTrak…
Here is a teaser photo. Click the pic to go to my website:
Here are my examples:
Botched Up 142 Announcement -- Two Drinks
Spotting an R62 on the (2) -- Two Drinks
Spotting A Redbird -- Five Drinks
Spotting A Redbird With Passengers -- Ten Drinks
See a M-3 in work service: 3 drinks, just do it after you take the picture
See a 2 or more car R6 Cynwyd train: 4 drinks plus one for every car over one married pair
See a work PCC: 2 drinks
See 2320 on any revenue line OOS: 2 drinks
See 9001 "The homewrecker" in service without repairs: 5-7 drinks, (or whatever gets you hammered) then call customer service and complain in a drunken rage.
Ride the Sports express to Pattison LL: one over-priced watered-down beer at the Linc or FUC (now WC)
Do the grand SW philly trolley loop (the 13 to darby, 11 to Island Ave, walk to the 36): one bottle of malt liquor from the liquor store in front of Elmwood Depot
and the list goes on...
I'm sure you could come up with some for boston!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?
:-)
If you were to see Redbirds with passengers now, I'd want to know what you've been smoking.
And I said "No shit, sherlock"
Steve B-8AVEXP was wondering what people were smoking if they saw them.
I have to wonder what you're smoking if you think Steve was saying he still thought Redbirds were running from that post.
I know all about their last run last Monday, thank you very much. I personally said farewell to them during my visit a few weeks back and am totally at peace with their final retirement.
Usually 4 singles and 3 flats.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll be off to my meeting now....
wayne
No lie. I heard this at 149st GC while I was on the downtown platform wating for the 2..... I guess 2 drinks?
MetroCards at a Discount.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They wouldn't go *that* far on the LIRR, would they?
NO! Oh My!
Having sex in a church is offensive to a lot of [eople, but if you are not religious it is no worse than having sex in any other building.
Basically they engaged in activity that was not permitted by the property owner. That's all they really did.
Even an athiest might view it as sacrilege: "Desecration, profanation, misuse, or theft of something sacred." I understand that non-religionists often have the sensitivity and intelligence to understand the concept of things being sacred to others.
Will you contend next that "Rape is like any other love-making, except that one of the people was engaged in an activity that was not permitted by the body owner. That's all he really did"?
Yes, but that doesn't make it more than basically just trespass and public lewdness. It offended sensibilities, but that makes the perpetrator a jerk, not a felon.
"Will you contend next that "Rape is like any other love-making, except that one of the people was engaged in an activity that was not permitted by the body owner. That's all he really did"?"
Rape is a crime of violence which can result in the death or maiming of a woman or man. It exposes her/him to life threatening diseases and personal torture.
Having consensual sex in a church offends sensibilities - but after you eject the perpewtrators and apply Lysol to the floor, you're done.
It's absurd that you would even compare the two. You need a serious reality check.
Usually but, by legal definition, not necessarily. Diminished capacity or inability to give consent because of age can make clearly consensual sex rape. Though difficult to prove, all one needs for a charge of rape is lack or even withdrawal of consent.
Having consensual sex in a church offends sensibilities - but after you eject the perpewtrators and apply Lysol to the floor, you're done.
It's absurd that you would even compare the two. You need a serious reality check.
Sensibilities? People have wars over religious sensibilities. People have been murdered over being dissed. Spitting in someone's face can be deemed assault, where there is no detectable physical harm. Just because you don't seem to value a principle or closely held belief worthy of honor doesn't mean others don't. Desecrating one's religious space is an assault on their person and can cause them anguish. Perhaps your own reality check would reveal this.
::ducks, runs::
Maybe women don't grope each other, eh?
Or does that mean that if a woman is not in a "woman's Only" car that they WANT to be groped?
:(
(and leave me along, how many years have we had to listen to dumb Clinton jokes? Fair is fair)
END COMMUNICATION
IIRC, some contemporary accounts of the Malbone Street wreck suggested the train was going about 40MPH (some said 70MPH, but that was ridiculous) and that that speed was about the normal max (when you're not heading for a 6MPH curve, that is).
I bet Jeff H knows.
Or trip cocks on the tracks next to signals.
Robert
The latter is more of a problem. There is nothing to stop the LIRR from purchasing 75 foot cars. But if the platform heights are higher, that won't work.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
10' 6" wide
85' long
So I assume it's the same for everything else, maybe the difference of an inch or 2
Mustang
Let Stand Together and Fight Together
BRING BACK SUNNY HALL!!!!!!!!!
Most of the more active members in the union are probably close to retirement and that's why you see such priorities.
Last contract big effort was the lifetime medical. Everyone gung ho for iw, but what they didn't realize was that it only benefitted those that were retiring this contarct. TA can take it away next. However, those most involved were close to retirement and since they put in the effort, they got it.
And don't take that the wrong way. I'm not saying the younger members aren't active, but look how the union plans their rallys and big meetings. Jacob Javits Center on a Saturday Morning. How many rookies do you know that can attend those meetings and make their voices heard??
The A division does not show up in force to the meetings. When they do show they talk about how tough they are and how weak the rest of us are and how the bosses fear them, YAWN. Queens, South and WT are much better represented which is not saying much either.
Concourse Crew Room won't get him on TV.
Sonny is a good man. My father (since retired) used to work with him at the old West Farms.
Peace,
ANDEE
If the toilets are sub-standard, contact OSHA.
Once they are fixed, be proud of them and keep them clean and neat.
Gig management as soon as something needs to be fixed in there.
As for TV sets.
I do not own one. I will choose what clinics I visit based on their NOT having a TV set in the waiting room.
Give me a clean room, with comfortable chairs, proper heat and air conditioning and a working Pepsi machine. That is enough.
Elias
> Maybe the TA does this to us because a high percent of the employees at Black, Latin, etc.
I for one am tired of hearing it as a good part of the upper management is the same.
> And u know the Union with have is the TA bitch because they just sit back and let this shit happen.
This I won't argue. I've seen a few cases where a member had a problem, they go to the union and repeats what the TA said without any further help.
> But no that not for us we don't even had paper to dry our hands with. The toilets don't have seat on them.
Ok, I'll give you the paper. Now let's get to how the toilets get to the condition they're in. Big conspiracy where the TSS and Supts come in and rip the seats off? No, I doubt it. What about graffitti on the walls? Broken stall doors? Look to our coworkers for that.
> Ok lets see we are not permitted to have cable, a dvd player, or a VCR because of the TA Rules right.
Hey, that's the rules. Want to make a big deal about it, and you'll have nothing. Go rat out our fellow members in Buses and find out where that gets you.
I can't count how many times an interval left late because a T/O or C/R was watching TV instead of not being on their train on time. So what about the customers, right? How about our coworker who has to use the bathroom but can't because there's no pocket for him to come into?
Everyone wants to bitch about the stupid TA rules or how the TA is screwing them. Most of the newer - stupid - memos are the result of what a coworker did.
* Remember the big thing about signing out on time (at least in the A division, they were withholding pay from anyone who didn't sign out) recently? Its because yet again someone left early without signing out and then did something stupid.
* C/Rs having to verify that the T/O have a lineup before turning the key, because a T/O didn't check their signals before trying to leave the station. And now it presents a hazard for C/Rs as it gives a customer who missed the train time to cause harm to the C/R.
Why do we have the above, because the TA is out to screw us? No.
What? The T/O was unresponsible, and wasn't paying attention to the signal before leaving the station?
That should be grounds for immediate unemployment.
Yeah... I sure wouldn't want to SIT on that!
BTW: OSHA Regulations REQUIRE employee restrooms to have a COAT HOOK in them. So if the Coat Hook is Missing, you are within your rights to call OSHA.
Elias
Courtesy of: JohnVillanueva.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
About 10 years ago, I was at the Concord Hotel for a singles weekend. The Saturday night act was Andrew Dice Clay, who, to me, is always hysterical. Anyway, after the show he walked thru the lobby with his bodyguard, Clubsoda Kenny, following closely behind. Dice is a big man himself, and could surely take anybody, man or woman, at a singles weekend. Kenny is even bigger and taller. If just seemed absurd at the time, probably even more than Monday morning.
(From a Friend in Canada.) Elias
If it was Texas, the weapons would be mounted on a Humvee, not some ATV from Bombardier or something.
If I recall correctly, the Germans conquered Belgium by basically landing a troop transport at the airport. A buncch of these motorcycle troops raced up the highway to the capitol and arrested the government.
Chuck
www.nycsubwayline.com
Hope you like them!
Subway Grrl
Julian
http://www.johnvillanueva.com/subwaycars/pages/160.html
Chuck
David
: ) Elias
Then, hang around until she calls on the cell phone.
All serious aside, Binding Arbitiration works wonders in permantly resoving transit strikes. Baltimore did it in 1970, after 3 strikes n 5 years with the old Baltimore Transit Company. It brought permanent labor peace, the only down side is that three times the Arbritrator produced a settlement figure that was more than the union (ATU, BTW) wanted and a lot more than the administration wanted to pay. It does pay hell with the budget.
Most contracts are for 3 years (with a couple of 4's and one 5) and usually everybody walks away happy if not totally satisfied.
No transit strikes in 33 years is a fantastic record, though.
The transit officials don't want to raise fares or have an independent arbitrator raise the fare to pay for health care costs that are going out of this world. That's the problem right then and there.
Folks. We're lucky we don't have this backward system where officials are afraid to raise taxes and fares for transit but not for building more roads and highways.
47th - 50th street station.
It's not that it only comes every century. It comes every 5 minutes, but takes a century to make the full trip.
Depending on what city you live in, I assume you would take some sort of vehicle to your local airport. Then I would take some sort of aircraft to a city where they would provide shuttle buses to some sort of school that would teach you grammar, punctuation, and all around basic English.
Peace,
ANDEE
Walk.
What are you, one of Mayor Guliani's Traffic Cops....
I'll cross whereever I darn well please.
That is one NYC right that I will NOT give up out here in N.D.
: ) Elias
you... that is what I tell people when they ask me what is different out here from NYC... I tell them "Its a LONG wait for a subway train."
One night I dreamed that s subway train pulled into the station down here. It was a shiny new consist of R-42 cars, but the last car was rather scuffed up,, and all of the windows were scratched up and tending to the opaque.
The doors opened and a whole bunch of New Yorkers emerged, squinting at the bright sun. They walked up the tree lined cobble-stoned streets (as if we had hills, trees or gaslights out here)
Oh Well....
Elias
Heh, its funny to watch as the only ones who wait for the light are the tourists. The rest of us are crossing and dodging the cabs.
Yup, and according to me it is the BETTER way to cross a street.
You look out for your own damn ass!
In Bismarck a young girl was killed and an intersection several years ago, because a car DID stop for her. The driver even signled for her to cross in front of him.
It was AT A MARKED CROSSWALK, yet the driver in the right hand lane assumed the car in the left lane was waiting to make a left turn and sped past him on the right, killing the girl.
At least if you cross in the middle of the block, you can see all of the cars, and they can see you.
As a pedestrian, you assume that the cars will not stop, as a driver you assume that the pedestrian will watch the traffic, but you will still be prepared to stop if necessary.
Gash... I hate it when these dumb cowboys out here stop their cars for you while you are trying to cross the street. When I cross I have taken to signaling them to keep going, as I intend to cross BEHIND them.
: ) Elias
But the quirkiest and most invisible place in all of New York City is the High Line, an elevated railroad spur stretching 1.45 miles from the Jacob Javits Convention Center to Gansevoort Street in the once grimy (and now fashionable) meatpacking district. A concrete and steel structure two stories above the sidewalk, it is so big that anyone can see it, but so nondescript and so much a part of the urban landscape that it mostly goes unnoticed.
The High Line was once the southernmost part of Manhattan's major freight route. Built in 1866, the 13-mile-long New York Central and Hudson River Railroad entered the island at Inwood and then ran alongside the Hudson River (through what later became Riverside Park) to 72nd Street. The tracks then continued south on city streets, mostly 11th Avenue, to St. John's Park, bordered by Varick, Hudson, Beach and Laight Streets just below Canal Street. Because the route was at grade all the way, it disrupted traffic and was so dangerous that a rider on horseback had to ride in front of the trains with a red flag. Even so, it earned its nickname, "Death Avenue," honestly.
The High Line was conceived in the late 1920's. One purpose of the $100 million project was to eliminate "Death Avenue" by putting the tracks below grade between 60th and 34th Streets and then two stories above the ground south of that point. Another purpose was to stimulate manufacturing in what was then the most productive and important industrial city in the world. To achieve this end, the two-story High Line viaduct would run through the middle of the block between 10th and 11th Avenues, passing either over or through the structures along the way, making deliveries of raw materials, milk and meat directly into warehouses or factories that were built to allow a train to run through them.
The most difficult engineering feat involved sending heavy freight trains directly through the famed Bell Telephone Laboratories building at Bethune Street. In order to eliminate vibrations that would have disrupted precision instruments, the railroad built caissons independent of the building. Other new structures that accommodated the viaduct included buildings for Swift & Company, the Cudahy Packing Company, and the National Biscuit Company (now the site of Chelsea Market).
The High Line was a good idea. Unfortunately, it didn't work. When the first train rumbled along the track on Aug. 1, 1933, making a delivery to the warehouse of R. C. Williams & Company at 25th Street, manufacturing in New York City was already in decline, the nation was in the middle of the Depression and railroads were languishing across the land. By 1938, more than 77,500 track miles, one-third of the national total, were in receivership.
The High Line had only a few good years, and those were mostly during World War II, when Gotham was the major transshipment point for troops, weapons and supplies heading for the European theater of operations. But after Americans rediscovered their cars and trucks in the postwar years, railroads resumed their long decline. Between the end of the war and 1970, New York area railroads lost half their freight tonnage. The High Line was no exception. Built to last for centuries, it carried its final train, loaded, perhaps apocryphally, with frozen turkeys, in 1980.
Twenty-three years later the High Line still stands. When I first walked along the abandoned tracks in 1982, access to the structure was easy, via any of several sets of stairs. When I ventured up there this fall, I had to have an escort and sign a waiver. But the hassle was worth it. For once I stepped onto the tracks, I entered another world. On a cool New York morning, I saw hyacinths, irises, onion grass and a lone apple tree. The only living creatures I saw were of the winged variety, and they probably find it a blessed miracle that a quiet resting place is available in such an improbable place. (There are no people up there regularly, so no food and thus no rats.)
In places, the track is lined with Art Deco railings. Within these incongruously elegant bounds, vegetation has taken over the rail bed, creating a narrow green walkway past funky nightclubs, aging factories and warehouses, and both old and new apartment buildings. The juxtaposition of high density urban development with hardy urban nature is nowhere on earth so stark or so exciting.
Sadly, the entire structure is off limits to ordinary citizens, which is necessary because the path is uneven and tricky, the old stairways have rusted and broken glass is a threat. And even if you are willing to ignore "No Trespassing" signs and the possibility of arrest, you must be skinny, young and adventurous to slither under, over, or through the barricades.
New York deserves better. The High Line deserves better. A failure as a railroad, it can be successful in a new role more appropriate for 21st century New York. Just as everyone loves Central Park because its meadows and glades allow us to forget that we are in the midst of a huge city, a High Line Park could become a public open space of an altogether different sort, a place that celebrates density and diversity, that shows us how nature can persevere in even the grittiest circumstances, that enables us to understand history not through a book or through a movie but through our own eyes. There is even some precedent for the idea of transforming the High Line into a greenspace. Ten years ago, Paris made an elevated park, the Promenade Plante, out of an abandoned train viaduct.
Fortunately, the stars are in alignment for such a venture. One group, the Friends of the High Line, has been mobilizing support for the notion for several years now. And while Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani favored tearing down the structure and opening the area to development, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, City Council Speaker Gifford Miller and the City Council as a whole have all publicly endorsed the idea of a public park on the railroad bed. The Republican leadership, in town next summer for their convention, could be enlisted in the effort. And couldn't a High Line Park be incorporated in plans to help lure the Olympics to town in 2012?
Cynical New Yorkers will believe it when they see it. There are a host of development, zoning, and legal issues that could easily undermine the plan or delay it for so long that the High Line could become the West Side version of the Second Avenue Subway. We all know of exciting proposals that never made it beyond the drawing board.
We can't let that happen to the High Line. New York needs more spaces to breathe, more spaces where the city can celebrate its past and its uniqueness. The Hudson River metropolis is not the prettiest or the cleanest or the easiest city in which to live. But it has grown to prominence over the past four centuries by giving people, places and ideas a second chance. The Tweed Courthouse scandalized the nation when it was built 130 years ago, and for decades it stood as a symbol of urban corruption. Recently renovated and refurbished, it now stands in elegance and floodlights as the home of the Department of Education. The High Line can be another story of redemption in New York.
http://oldnyc.com/highline/contents/highline.html
There is a proposal to have the 14th St. Line go north to Javits Center and possibly even to NJ, but I don't think this would use the High Line.
1. Extend the 7 to the Javits Center, then onto the High Line until its end. Then it either goes underground and continues to the new downtown terminal, or it curves over to the West Side Highway, and travels above that until the downtown terminal..
2. Extend the L over to the highline, and run it north to the JJC.
3. Part of new Amtrak line to Long Island. Does not stop at NYP, but rather continues onto highline(from hudson line), then after the end of highline, continues under the west side highway to dowtown, then over to brooklyn(from there, stops at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Ronkonkoma(the to the hamptons in the summer via manorville eastport ROW)
the LIRR/MNRR extension to downtown would not use the highline, but rather travel below the west side highway
As for the High Line itself, it would do better as some sort of park or maybe something along the lines of a 'Rails-to-Trails' thing.
Ahem!
There is very little left in the structure to indicate its original function. About the only thing I noticed that would give clues to its history are the tremendously large freight elevators from its railroad days that are still in use. Much of the space has been converted to office and warehousing and is rented out to various businesses. Bloomberg leases the southern end of the building's second floor, and part of the first floor in the 330 West Street section.
I believe that in the last several years the building has undergone a massive reconstruction, adding additional floors above the second. My understanding is that these are being used as independent television production studios.
(They are getting ambitious... they have programs that are carried by our local (clear channel) radio station.
Anyway... I used to work for WNEW (1130) Metromedia Radio.
Did they sell out to Bloomberg, loose their license or what.
I never knew who the station changed hands.
Does Metromedia still have that big building in New Jersey?
Does Bloomberg still use the same transmitters?
Idle minds want to know.
Elias
--Mark
http://www.erha.org/pe.htm
http://www.westworld.com/~elson/larail/PE/tunnel.html
http://users.snowcrest.net/marnells/vineyardsub.htm
7=Flushing Line
Thanks
Chuck :-)
The #7 is identified as "Flushing Local"
The #7 is identified as "Flushing Local"
ROFLMAO....
The Flusing Line is not on Flusing Avenue.... It's on Roosevelt Avenue : )
The (7) Flusing Line goes to Flushing on Roosevelt Avenue!
Elias
The Flusing Line is not on Flusing Avenue.... It's on Roosevelt Avenue : )
The (7) Flusing Line goes to Flushing on Roosevelt Avenue!
Elias
The avenue has nothing to do with it. In the days before there was air-conditioning we rode the cars with the windows open. And on a hot summer days when the train passed over Flushing Creek at low tide you knew why they named it "Flushing."
Andrew Culver's 'Culver Line.'
The 'Flushing Line' heads to Flushing.
Et cetera.
I'll leave the IRT for the Bronxites.
Do they make Aluminium out of Bronxites?
Only in Britain. In the U.S. they make aluminum.
The Flushing is a line. It is covered by the (7) Route
The Canarsie is a line. It is covered by the (L) Route
The Concourse is a line. It is covered by the (B) and the (D)
Sixth Avenue is a line. It is covered by the (B) (D) (F) and (V)
The Brighton is a line. It will be covered by the (B) and the (Q)
So a route will ride on one, two or even three lines from one end to another.
Now we may be ading to your confusion by calling something the (F) line, and most of us will realize that we are speaking of the whole (F) route, but if we say the Queensboro Line (They call it the QB line, just to confuse those of us who remember the (QB) route which never went onto the QB (the line).)
So when a line is called by its name, you can figure that we are speaking of a structure in a certain place, where as when we name a train, we are usually speaking of the route that it takes.
Now just to add to your confusion (some more) back in the 60s when I was a kid, route letters were a new thing to Brooklyn, They basically came in with the R-27 series of REDBIRD cars, but all of the routes in Brooklyn were mostly known by their line name. So you would take the West End train, the Sea Beach Train, or the Brighton Train and even though it was first the (D) and now the (F), we in Brooklyn always called it the Culver Train.
If this doen not completely confuse you, let me know and I will try again.
: ) Elias
Since when is the Sea Beach a subway line?? It a four track-wide open trench that resembles a World War I foxhole. Now if you want a real subway ride the Fourth Avenue Line.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Mext stop on the magnificent open cut Sea Beach is 20th Avenue. Watch us swoosh through those min-tunnels. Just a delight.
:-)
Fred: Whats wrong with the Fourth Avenue Line. If it wasn't for the Fourth Avenue Line you Sea Beachcombers would still be transfering to a ferry at 59 Street.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll be waiting patiently for his book ... "I thought I was going to be da turbanator, instead I'm Kindergarten Cop with that legislature." Should be an amusing three years. I'll take the snow. Heh. Congrats! Remember da rule, FREE DRINKS!
And despite what you may have read, sarsparilla's just fine by me. Heh.
Try again to confuse him or try again to explain? :)
But New York City is not Moscow or other subway systems where a line goes from point A to point B.
Our routes merge and divert, so that there are four different routes running on the 6th Avenue Line.
There are five different routes running on the Queensboro Line.
Over the years some lines have seen many different routes.
The Brighton Line used to run the (Q) (QB) and (QT) trains.
The Christie Steet was built and it ran the Broadway (Q) and the 6th Avenue (D)
Then the Manhattan Bridge was closed and it ran a 6th Avenue (Q) and a 6th Avenue (D).
Then the other side opened and the first side was closed and so it ran a Circle (Q) and a Diamond < Q >.
Now the Bridge will be fixed and it will run a Broadway (Q) and a 6th Avenue (B).
The West End used to run the (T) and (TT) trains, then it got the (B) now it has the (W) and soon that will be replaced with the (D).
So what do we mean by a route or a line?
You really cannot call a line by its route designation, because that will change from time to time, or even with the time of the day.
So we can, I suppose call a particular section of track by it's Line Name. These might be listes as thus:
The Lexington
The Broadway (BMT)
The Nassau Street
The 6th Avenue
The 7th Avenue
The Broadway (IRT) : )
The 8th Avenue
The Canarsie
The Jamaica
The Broadway (Jamaica) : )
The Flusing (On Roosevelt Avenue) : )
The Queensboro
The Crosstown
The Fulton Street
The Rockaway Line
The Fourth Avenue
The West End
The Sea Beach
The Culver
The Brighton
The Franklin Avenue
The Nostrand Avenue
The New Lots
The Metropolitan Avenue
The Myrtle Avenue :(
The Astoria
The Concourse
The Jerome
The Pelham
The Dyre
The White Plains Road
The Third Avenue :(
The Second Avenue :(
These lines have all been associated with different routes during the time of their existance. The Advent of modern route letters began with the IND, although some BMT trains had early numbers on them, not all BMT cars *could* display these numbers.
The IND started the numbers up in the North West Corner of its system, they started with single letters for the Express Trains and Double Letters for Local Trains.
So we would find the (A) and (AA) trains running as the 8th Avenue Local, the (BB) Train as a 6th Avenue Local.
On the Concourse we find the (CC) 8th Avenue Local and the (D) 6th Avenue Express.
Moving into Queens we find the (E) and (F) trains and the (GG) Local.
In Brookly we find the (HH) Local.
Over the years these letters and routes have changed. The IRT and BMT became unified with the same systems when the R-12 cars were purchased for the old IRT routes, and the R-27s were purchased for the BMT routes.
As late as 1964 the subway maps NEVER SHOWED route letters on them, only the line names. You know what? I never even missed them!
You looked at an (F) train and saw that it was going to 179th Street, you looked at the map and saw that it was the Hillside Avenue Line.
Later maps (In the 1970s) used a different color for each lettered route. Today's map using Manhattan Trunk colors is nice, but for me, the 1962 map was the BEST!
The tracks (Give them line names) stay put.
The trains (well DUH!) move around!
Route designations come and go.
First the (D) is on the Culver, then on the Brighton, tomorrow it will be on the West End. Of course it is also on the Concourse Line. : )
Maybe we should make it a SubTalk convention to refer to lines by name when we are referring to the tracks and physical plant, and to refer to trains and routes by letter designation.
And if you still want to know what train is on which line, then you will have to also tell me for when you want to know.
: ) Elias
Before that the IND was red the BMT was Green, and the IRT was Black.
And Before that.... EACH ONE HAD THEIR OWN MAPS that did not show the others.!
See the Current Map here.
Elias
(f.e. A,2)
And where do you count three shuttles?
The Culver Shuttle is long gone.
That leaves the Franklin Shuttle; The Grand Street Shuttle, The Rockaway Park Shuttle, and of course the Times Square Shuttle.
But these again are ROUTES not lines.
The Franklin Shuttle runs on its own line.
The Grand Street Shuttle is part of the 6th Avenue Line
The Rockaway Shuttle is part of the Rockaway Line
and the Times Square Shuttle is part of the Lexington Avenue Line (as far as trains and maintenance and staffing is concerned, but the South track is phyically part of the Lexington Avenue Line, while the north track is physically part of the 7th Avenue/Broadway Line.
I do not recall which side the center track connects on.
Elias
WRONG!
Since the shuttle is maintained at Livonia, it can be considered part of the 7th Avenue Line. It cannot be considered in any way part of the Lexington line.
Where does the center track connect to the rest of the system.
Elais
Things Change! : )
I recently saw a shuttle train on the southbound local track at Lex/42nd. I wonder what it was doing there if the shuttle is maintained out of Livonia.
A line represents a physical section of one or more track while a route is the service that actually operates over it.
The four tracks on Lexington Avenue are properly refered to as "a LINE." However three routes operate over the "LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE"; the Nos 4,5,and 6. Now each of these three routes has what we might call "sub-routes" or "workings" (A marvelous British term)
The # 4 has sveral sub-routes or workings
Woodlawn-Bowling Green,Woodlawn-Atlantic, Woodlawn-Utica, and Woodlawn-New Lots for example.
Although four shuttles currently use the same designation "S" they are actually separate routes. Other shuttles
such as the Liberty Avenue,Myrtle Avenue and Dyre Avenue use the designation of the mother route since they primarily operate to cover off-hour service.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The problem I find is that the use of the circle and diamond when it comes to differentiating routes can be confusing.
http://oldnyc.com/highline/contents/highline.html
There is a proposal to have the 14th St. Line go north to Javits Center and possibly even to NJ, but I don't think this would use the High Line.
1. Extend the 7 to the Javits Center, then onto the High Line until its end. Then it either goes underground and continues to the new downtown terminal, or it curves over to the West Side Highway, and travels above that until the downtown terminal..
2. Extend the L over to the highline, and run it north to the JJC.
3. Part of new Amtrak line to Long Island. Does not stop at NYP, but rather continues onto highline(from hudson line), then after the end of highline, continues under the west side highway to dowtown, then over to brooklyn(from there, stops at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Ronkonkoma(the to the hamptons in the summer via manorville eastport ROW)
the LIRR/MNRR extension to downtown would not use the highline, but rather travel below the west side highway
As for the High Line itself, it would do better as some sort of park or maybe something along the lines of a 'Rails-to-Trails' thing.
Ahem!
There is very little left in the structure to indicate its original function. About the only thing I noticed that would give clues to its history are the tremendously large freight elevators from its railroad days that are still in use. Much of the space has been converted to office and warehousing and is rented out to various businesses. Bloomberg leases the southern end of the building's second floor, and part of the first floor in the 330 West Street section.
I believe that in the last several years the building has undergone a massive reconstruction, adding additional floors above the second. My understanding is that these are being used as independent television production studios.
(They are getting ambitious... they have programs that are carried by our local (clear channel) radio station.
Anyway... I used to work for WNEW (1130) Metromedia Radio.
Did they sell out to Bloomberg, loose their license or what.
I never knew who the station changed hands.
Does Metromedia still have that big building in New Jersey?
Does Bloomberg still use the same transmitters?
Idle minds want to know.
Elias
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
I doubt many are, but I was surprised when I was trying to see if I could find a copy of the 1934 Universal movie Bombay Mail to find that its namesake still runs on Indian Railways.
Mark
Which Bond movie - was it From Russia with Love? -- took place on the Trans-Siberian RR?
There was no such movie. From Russia with Love did not take place in Russia.
Mark
No movie containing the James Bond character took place on the Trans-Siberian Railroad.
Accept that instead of being an ungrateful piece of shit.
And yes, you should be grateful; your question was answered.
http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/rly_movs.html
Thanks for the cool link!
No, the Century is long gone.
Jim K
Chicago
--Mark
This is what I live for...
I'm assuming Lincoln, Dave & Brian are going.
til next time
I'm there.
Chuck Greene
I will pay a visit to 59th street, then take a C to the E, then camp out somewhere on the J line. Bring long underwear, it's going to be cold!
***Bonk***
reality sets in
Sniff....sniff, I guess I have to rely on photos of other peopl.....sigh.
I would have preferred the express run even though it's slower, since it's rarely encountered trackage these days. Oh well.
First, on Friday I found myself at Newark Penn with downtime waiting for my train. I noticed that the majority of the PATH cars have removed the EXPL placard from the sides (placed over the WTC light) of the cars and the trains are going out "unlit" on the sides while still being signed for Exchange Place on the front. For comparison, when Exchange Place was being reopened, PATH started placing those placards on the cars several months ahead of time. I suppose time does not allow for that now. Additionally, the maps in the cars were replaced exactly 1 week before Exchange Place opened, so perhaps we can expect that next Sunday or Monday.
Second, given that PATH has announced an opening date for WTC, when can we expect an opening date for weekday Seacaucus service? I had previously heard Dec. 7th or so, but that was many, many weeks ago.
They could do that anytime after PATH to WTC reopens. As to exact start date, maybe that's tied into crew "picks" the same way the TA does it.
??
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
We might actually get some rain tonight in southern California.
Yeah, right - I purposely left the pickup truck outside so I don't have to wash it. That will definitely prevent any rain from failling.
Here's a world map so you can see what you can see from where you are, it's already half way there as I type ...
http://skyandtelescope.com/mm_images/5745.gif
Mark
Green/green/lunar. Yum.
Is that the man (in the moon) upstairs?
Mark
: )
Mark
How dare you defile such a glorious object lesson in physics with your slanderous giving of credit to mystical figures! Even in the event that god exsists, what would he have to do with the simple partial blocking of the suns rays by the earth? Next I suppose you'll claim that we all move along on crystal spheres that then rotate on epicycles through the ether.
This is why America is so goddamn scientifically illiterate, every time we witness a truely astounding example of the simple, beautiful physics that govern our universe, some damn publitheist comes along and gives credit to the wrong goddamn person. We just witnessed a perfect example of the motion of the moon relative to the earth, something we were able to witness on a minute by minute basis, instead of the usual day by day basis we usually see.
So save the praising of god for when your bushes are burning.
Facts shmacts
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends.
Well I say there's some things we don't want to know, important things.
Bad analogy - I'm not a scientist, but I like knowing how a movie's going to end before I watch it!
Go to a state park the next time there's something interesting in the night sky.
This was the last total of the Saros 126 cycle.
Paul: Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein had one of the greatest movie scene of all time.
Larry Talbot to Lou Costello: "But you don't understand. Every night when there's a full moon I change into a wolf."
Lou Costello to Larry Talbot:"Yeh' You and forty million other guys''
Larry, RedbirdR33
On the lighter side, here's Lenny Bruce's "Maria Ouspenskaya Interview" :
"Tank you very much ladies and gentlemen. I just want to say that Helen Hayes is a fink; I am the real Anastasia !"
Still lighter is Mel Brooks' "2000 Year Old Man" :
"There was no medical insurance back then. If you got run over by a chariot you just lay there till you got better."
What's the status of R40 #4259? Is the body work done yet?
wayne
wayne
Larry, RedbirdR33
Paul: I recall that when the contract was placed for the Brightliners it would be split into two groups, one to be purchased by the City and the other to be paid for by the NYCTA.
I did some resarch into this and found that in 1962 the New York State Legislature amended the Public Authorities Law to enable the TA to issue bonds to purchase 724 new subway cars. These became the 424 R-36's and the 300 R-32 or R-32A. The other 300 Brightliners would be purchased with city funds.
The cars purchased with city funds were the R-32A's 3350-3649 while the cars purchased with TA funds were the R-32's 3650-3649.
Why they put the "A"s first I don't know.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
--Mark
Ditto! Though I can't remember the exact date. Must have been 1964.
Budd really showed the TA a thing or too. They came in with the absolute low bid and forced the TA into buying quality--quality which certainly shows today, 40 years down the road.
Sadly, it didn't help Budd. St. Louis got the R38 contract and Budd never built another car for the TA.
When folded the map is on the small side, 3 1/4" wide X 4 3/4" tall. Open measurements are 16 1/4" X 17".
It has the NYCTA TA emblem on the front.
It shows numerous double letter trains including the JJ, RJ & QJ.
Does anyone else have a similar map, who could tell me what specific year this represents? I'm thinking mid to late 1960's. The MJ as well as the 8 are still shown.
I'm sorry that Larry RedbirdR33 did not see my post. He had some funny comments about my subject title several years ago when I used it.
Karl: I just saw your post this morning. It is the Chrystie Street map that you have. It was the only one to have the "TA" logo on the front and the only one to show the "NX". It sounds like that Maryland show is a good one. You always find something of interest there.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
www.forgotten-ny.com
By SETH SOLOMONOW
ADVANCE STAFF WRITER
The $400 million plan to build a new, 10-car subway station at the Whitehall Ferry Terminal might be a windfall for thousands of Staten Island commuters, but Lower Manhattan business and community leaders expressed little love for the proposal yesterday during a Metropolitan Transit Authority public hearing in Manhattan.
Construction to replace the cramped and noisy five-car station now used by the 1/9 IRT line is to begin late next year, but critics say the South Ferry project would drain federal funds away from other plans to rebuild transit systems disrupted by the Sept. 11 attacks.
Henry J. Stern, president of New York Civic, a public affairs group, and a former city Parks commissioner, dismissed the new station as "a rather idle conceit," considering what he called the higher priority of rebuilding the World Trade Center Hub and building a commuter-friendly transit center on Fulton Street.
'STOP SPENDING MONEY'
Speaking before more than 100 mostly transit insiders and advocates, Stern told MTA officials William Wheeler and Douglas Sussman to "stop spending money on this and wait until the other subways are built."
The two Staten Islanders who spoke at the meeting -- where there were about a dozen speakers -- took exception to those who said the South Ferry plan wasn't a top priority.
"I invite them to come to that terminal and stand on that platform at eight o'clock in the morning," said Tamara Coombs, chairwoman of the Ferry Riders Committee. "It is hot, it is crowded, and it is dangerous," she said. "I invite you to come to Community Board 1 on Staten Island and see whether it's the lowest priority there," she told the audience.
"It is insulting to Staten Islanders to say that this project is not a priority," said state Senator Seymour Lachman (D-North Shore/Brooklyn) in a written statement to the Advance following the meeting, which he did not attend. "This project affects the lives of all Staten Islanders and is essential to the economic revitalization of Lower Manhattan."
The money for the South Ferry station is part of $4.5 billion in federal funds allocated to rebuild transit in Lower Manhattan following the Sept. 11 attacks. Though the South Ferry station wasn't damaged in the attacks, advocates maintain that the 1/9 lines have been hit with a surge in ridership and that the station must be part of rebuilding efforts.
But a representative of Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, whose district includes parts of Lower Manhattan, said that while a station upgrade is overdue, "funds for this project should be sought elsewhere," perhaps through the MTA's capital budget.
Wheeler, the MTA's director of planning, said there were enough funds for all its projects and that environmental analysis on the South Ferry project would continue before construction begins next year, to be completed in 2007.
Representatives from the Alliance for Downtown New York, The Battery Conservancy and Lower Manhattan's Community Board 1 also opposed the project.
The Conservancy said it was concerned about the possible obtrusive effects the construction could have on Battery Park, while the others pushed for other transit priorities, citing studies of Lower Manhattan businesses.
6 MILLION RIDERS
The station, which was built in 1905, now transports some 6 million passengers annually -- mostly commuters and tourists -- all of whom pass through one bank of stairs at the front of the station.
A design proposal for the new two-track terminal under State Street and Peter Minuit Plaza includes three exits, disabled access and an underground connection between the 1/9 lines and N/R trains at Whitehall Street station.
As any commuter knows, getting to and from the platform via the two-lane staircase can be difficult.
"It's too small," said Fran Wright, a St. George resident who catches the train at South Ferry to commute to her Midtown job. Her husband, Mark Wright, added, "I know I miss the train sometimes because there's so much congestion coming up the stairs that I can't get down."
Seth Solomonow is a news reporter for the Advance. He may be reached at solomonow@siadvance.com.
Copyright 2003 SILive.com. All Rights Reserved.
i wonder what the TA is smoking when they came up with this plan.they
want to build a new SF terminal and make the 1 train go to new lots av
it,ll sorrta be like post 9/11.they could do that,or make the 1 terminate at chambers st.it would be easier that way.what do yall think?
til next time
And sure enough, ways were sought and found to spend that windfall $4.5 billion and then some.
Is there a real need for two new transit hubs, one at the WTC site and another at Fulton Street? Are those really the top transit priorities? What new subway services will they provide? Did Congress know what it was doing when it allocated the funds, or was it a knee-jerk response to 9/11?
What was clearly needed was to reopen the 1 & 9 line and PATH lines and rebuild the two stations (Cortlandt Street 1 & 9 and the PATH terminal) that were destroyed in the attack, but all of that is being done and paid for out of another pocket.
The main problem with South Ferry is the trains do not fit the station; the problem goes back to when IRT trains were extended from 5-car to 10-car trains, perhaps about 80 years ago. The single 5-car curved platform (with gap fillers) is too short for the 10-car trains that serve it, and I thought that was the justification for rebuilding it. The problem of course has nothing whatsoever to do with the 9/11 attacks, except that South Ferry happens to be in Lower Manhattan, where the federal funds are to be spent.
If Staten Islanders are only concerned about the crowded stairway, there must be a cheaper solution. It wouldn't cost $500 million to build another staircase!
Actually, yes. Fulton Street is a mess, and the WTC is being rebuilt from scratch, so why not put in a transit hub? If you don't you're just missing an obvious opportunity to build something that cannot be done when all the buildings are up.
"What was clearly needed was to reopen the 1 & 9 line and PATH lines"
And that has been accomplished.
"and rebuild the two stations (Cortlandt Street 1 & 9 and the PATH terminal)"
The cost of the new hub isn't going to be a big deal compared to the sum total of the new towers, memorial, new streets and everything else.
My friend, you mught want to learn basic physics and the stress a certain substance can handle.
So if they couldnt last into the 80's without some rust, what the hell makes you think they can widthstand entering and exiting Earth's atmosphere, and the radiation of the sun?
At the end of their lives they were barely passenger worthy.
STUPID STUPID STUPID.
Oh, did I mention STUPID?
Maybe the next time Jersey Mike responds to you, you should LISTEN.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
How about we stop and think...
First off, they're carbon steel, which is possibly the WORST material for, it's heavy, low strength material. Notice that most spaceships are built of Aluminum and composite materials, with a minimal use of steel.
Second, there is no friggin way in hell that you're gonna pressurize them against space, they'd pop in an instant. Witness the Comet depressurizations back in the 1950s. If they're virtually useless as crew quarters, laboratories, or anything else that requires a breathable atmosphere for the astronauts, then what the heck are hauling them up into space for?
Sorry CClocal, your twisted ideas for nearly every and anything have no basis in reality, and indeed should be avoided at all costs.
LOOK AT ME!! I'm funny!!! ...... I'm using...........''s I'm just like CCLOCAL. Let's all laugh...HO HO HO....look at me!!!
~~~Sincerely-- Donald R Johnson
Do subway wormholes follow NORAC signaling?
Am I the ONLY one who ain't got a buzz on tonight? Light dat chit, smoke dat chit, PASS dat chit. (grin)
The Van Courtlandt Madman
The Van Courtlandt Madman
DRJ
Every since the skiddies here have driven AWAY the professionals by causing management to form a study group on, "how do we STOP this?" we ALL no longer have what it is that drew us "old-timers" (more age than substinance here on MY part - I finally stopped lurking only two years ago, so I'm a probie here) TO this place was the WONDERFUL "nuts and bolts" nature of the place. Everybody KNEW it was a gotdamn F train that went by at 2120 hours ... it was the "here's the deceleration rate of a 68 vs. a 42 and here's WHY it blew the signals and STILL didn't stop" ... it was the "L3 relay picks up, K2 drops and you'll get that "I saw a red AND a yellow on the same automtic - then finally the red dropped out and it was still yellow" ... it was the "how often do commutator brushes get cleaned?" ... it was the "DC0 key, which position" ... it was the "WELL ... HERE'S THE NUMBERS! R68A's do NOT $uck BECAUSE" ... it was the "ME23 float valve can stick BECAUSE" to the intricate nuances of "Chevron axle mounts vs. inboard journals." or HERE'S *WHY* they raised the fare and who cashes in on it. :(
INSTEAD, we get "Oh yeah? Show me the MONEY!" or "Doctors are waiting for your call, this pill will make your rollsign ***HUGE***!!!" ...
Given a lack of interest in arnines and the subway realities of the 70's (which I've already BELABORED TO FREAKING DEATH!) and the one thing *I* came here to enjoy and decided to chide in in the FIRST place was those wonderful "war stories" among crew who came here to just plain VENT and get it out of themselves ... now THAT was sweet hearing what *REALLY* happened when the railroad qwapped the bed somewhere, WHO derailed, WHY that particular train died (*TRUTH!*) and really neat "I don't care HOW much you pay, you're not riding revenue *HERE*) about all I'm interested in anymore from what's left (I don't CARE about toasters on wheels) is some of the off-topics. Since I ain't got enough money to pay my bills, and thus can't give Unca Dave a CASH TIP is I ain't GOT it, the least I can provide is a few chukcles to as many as I can, and savor the off-topics. Sadly, the off-topics have often been FAR more entertaining than the "ON topic." :(
Except for Jeff H, Frank Hicks, Tood Glickman and a handful of others (like Unca Dougie and Unca Lou when THEY'RE in a mood to "dish") ... but frankly it HAS gotten boring. Only things that I've gotten a stiffie for lately have been some really weird and "GEEZ! Didn't we do that last WEEK?" stuff. Sorry for the politics, but rest assured my hatpin is ready for *ANY* gasbag. :)
Hey, hey, Selly, where did you get that assumption, because I can tell you right now, that's completely false. I've always found you to be a very humorous poster on here. And whenever I ask ceetain questions about the system, you can answer some of them with glee in mind. Where did you even think such a thing?
There's a few folks here on the board who, through their own @n@l retentive personalities, seem to think MOI, a "Bambi killer" as some sort of COMMIE. My bad, I thought you'd seen black helicopters. :)
Mister Natural's got some advice ... you already heard the v1gra ads, let's move on now, class .... class? ... CLASS! The words "New World Order" came up once again ... wasn't it DADDY that echoed those same words of Hitler? "NEW WORLD ORDER" ... black helicopters, Ruby Ridge ... WACO (where Shrub lives) ... and strangely, now that they're in power, it was Clinton's fault. Don't mind me, just wanted to explain the passions ... BOY was I ...
WRONG!!!!
Heh. Oh yeah ... GOOGLE Rush Limbaugh's comments on DRUG ADDICTION ... live by the mic, let's go to the videotape. Ditto. :)
Wish all well ... as much as I love Arnines, I'd rather be RUNNING one, and alas, MTA has orders to shoot to kill if I was to show up with my keys and handles and say, like I used to, "I'll take it." :)
I'm trying to figure out whose post makes LESS sense.
I haven't been this confused since I saw an R-30 on the C 10 years ago.
We're taking on water Mr. Squidward!
I want my mommy Mr. Squidward!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If you know what this is, you are either 6 years old or the parent of a 6 yo child.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/parental/spongebob.htm
Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
Absorbent and Yellow and Porous is he!
If nautical nonsense is something ye wish
Then drop on the deck and flop like a fish!
Next stop Bikini Bottom!
:o)
wayne
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I wonder what they'd infer over people who get their kicks watching trains going into tunnels. Hmmm. Paging Doctor Freud! Heh.
If you know what this is, you are either 6 years old or the parent of a 6 yo child.
Or gay.
The West Hempstead ROW (marked by power lines)
And finally something to freak Jeff Saltzman of "Jeff's expressways" web site, a triple masted utility pole grinning with evil at the County Life press sta :-)
Haven't heard from Jeff for awhile, he was supposed to get married this summer.
Mandatory site content: Country Life Press is named for a defunct publication. Does anyone have a copy of 'Country Life'?
www.forgotten-ny.com
wayne
I can't think of many better ways to invigorate western Nassau County.
No. I'm not actually expecting it to happen (though I'm now in school for transportation planning and I will do what little I can on this sort of thing.)
:-) Andrew
The way the LIRR trackage is pointed, it would be Far Rockaway-Boston. Then we need a connector to the A Line on the city side. So our new H train could be Euclid Avenue to Rockaway Park, to Far Rockaway to New Haven to Boston via Shore Line to Springfield and New Haven via the Inland Route to New Haven to Far Rockaway back to Euclid Avenue.
Now that's what I call a Rockaway Round-Robin. Better bring a few bag lunches! ;-)
Rail line from New Haven with stops at:
Milford-Bridgeport-Westport-South Norwalk-Stamford-Port Chester(then via new 3-4 track tunnel in between 2 lanes of highway on each side under LI sound)-Glen Cove Ferry Terminal-Roslyn-Mineola-Country Life Press-West Hempstead-Valley Stream-Hewlett-Lawrence-Far Rockaway-Rockaway Park/Beach 116th St
And another rail line, making local stops on the LI portion of the above route:
Oyster Bay-Locust Valley-Glen Cove-Sea Cliff-Greenvale-Roslyn-Albertson-Mineola-Country Life Press-West Hempstead-Lakeview-Malverne-Valley Stream-Hewlett-Lawrence-Far Rockaway-Beach 44th St-Beach 90th St-Rockaway Park/Beach 116th St
Historically, roads generate new traffic. Nassau County is already high density and Suffolk not far behind. Nassau is already saturated with highways. A rail line will move passengers and freight efficiently. It would relieve truck traffic in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Queens and Nassau County, and maybe Suffolk too, if it were combined with a Narrows rail tunnel.
On the other hand, a bridge would spur development by making it easier to go from parts of Long Island to the rest of the world.
Stewart Airport-Suffern-White Plains-Port Chester-Glen Cove Ferry-OB-Huntington(new extension of OB line to Port Jeff line)-smithtown-KO(connection between port jeff and main lines)-West Hampton(via manorville eastport ROW)-the hamptons-montauk
(if not all that, then just Glen Cove Ferry-Mineola-Hempstead Transit Center
New Haven-Bridgeport-Stamford-Port Chester-Glen Cove Ferry-mineola-Valley Stream-Far Rock-Rockaway Park
(both routes have other stops)
Also, if everyone here is bitchin about gettin a north south line(OB to Far Rock) goin, why are you all of a sudden shooting down my proposal. You mean to tell me there aren't people who travel between station between New Haven and Port Chester?
It doesn't need to be an employment center even, it could be something else where people would be able to walk from the station and not need a car.
Have you looked at Long Island lately? It doesn't need anything to spur development. All a bridge would do is further urbanize the Island.
And?
Increasing its density will wreck it for everyone, rich or not. I would not want to see further urbanization of Western Suffolk.
Even in the least-affluent communities in Western Suffolk, places like Wyandanch or North Amityville, the cheapest houses start at about $125,000. Especially combined with property taxes of at least $2,500 a year, and usually much more, those houses would be largely out of reach for the lower middle class.
Why not? What the hell; you don't sound like you've spent a lot of time within an urban setting. Like Brooklyn, for instance. Don't forget: it's not a real choice to make. It just happens. I'd say the real choice to make is, just what kind of urbanization should occur? The L.A. style? Or the Brooklyn style?
I'll take Brooklyn style, thanks. I'm all for increased intra-Nassau/Suffolk rail service, beyond what we have now. And that by necessity requires a certain population density, and that means, basically, higher concentrations of people living along the linear r.o.w.s. So it's gonna look "urban". Ideally, this terrain can allow for more undeveloped areas to remain undeveloped.
Also, yes, I have been in urban areas quite frequently. I used to live in downtown brooklyn, right near the corner of Adam's and Tillary! One of the most dangerous intersections for pedestrians in NY state.
Suffolk hasn't been rural for many years. Except for a few patches here and there, mainly along the north shore and in parks, development is largely continuous west of Route 112 (Patchogue-Pt.Jefferson Road), maybe even Route 46 (William Floyd Parkway). Infill development is gradually claiming much of the remaining non-protected open space. While eastern Suffolk generally doesn't have continuous development, with few exceptions it really isn't rural, in the normal sense of the term.
Every family has three children of driving age? Or are you assuming servants?
"Honey, should I drive the yellow H2 or the black H2?"
CG
: )
Mark
As Pig already pointed out, those cars cannot all be on the road at once.
Smith Haven Mall has a visible security presence. As best I can tell, from many visits, there's generally one guard patrolling the parking lots in a Ford Explorer, one guard in the vicinity of the entrance nearest the food court (groups of teens tend to congregate there), another one in the central area where the wings cross, and at least two patrolling around the corridors. And that's not counting any plainclothes guards.
Sure, there likely are more guards on duty at Roosevelt Field at any given time, but that mall also has many more shoppers than Smith Haven. I would suspect that the guard-patron ratio at the two malls is not radically different.
You're right about that, although I suspect that uniformed guards at store entrances are not particularly effective in stopping shoplifters.
It would not ruin the view any more than The George Washington Bridge ruined the Palisades and the Verrazano Bridge ruined the Narrows.
Then there were three hub-only proposals, for a light rail, personal people mover or coventional people mover option. The difference between the last two is that the PPM would go point to point, while the regular PM would make each of 18 stops. All these proposals would have been within the Hub only.
Besides, New Yorkers should know by now that the knocking down of one transportation plan does not mean the one you like has a better chance.
2 rail lines. One from NCC to mineola(no bus currently does this run) with intermidiate stops, and then one from Roosevelt Field Mall to Hempstead(the buses that do this run are constantly delayed in traffic) with intermidiate stops. Those going to the mall from mineola can transfer at Clinton Rd or Oak St stations.
People don't know what they've got 'til its gone.
It would spur development in places where development may harm the quality of life in LI and contribute to unchecked sprawl.
wayne
At some point population, if unstablized, will shrink. Whether it shrinks gradually or crashes is the question. I don't think I'll be around to see it, but 50 years from now you might have to change your handle from American Pig to American Lemming. Join the crowd!
wayne
Now they're building McMansions cheek and jowl with each other and shoehorning houses in places where you wouldn't even think they could build.
Something I've been noticing in Suffolk is increased development of "flag lots," parcels that have only a narrow corridor to the road. This may be a result of shortages of more-desirable building lots, changes in zoning rules, or a combination.
Imagine how much nature would have to be given up if the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan all moved into sprawling suburbs. In exchange, a small island would be allowed to return to its natural roots.
In theory. This assumes that the unbuilt-on land will remain untouched. Nature abhors a vaccum, and so do developers. If you have lower density, but all the land is occupied, this in itself becomes a check on growth.
Population continues to grow, and that is the broader issue.
A small dense area can expand into a larger dense area. Look at the development of Manhattan.
I'm not arguing against sprawl. I'm arguing against high density.
A small dense area can expand into a larger dense area. Look at the development of Manhattan.
Not many people won't to live in Manhattan-style, including people who live in otehr urban areas.
I know, and you're doing a poor job of it.
Who consumes more of nature, 1.5 million Manhattan residents or 1.5 million residents of sprawl?
If I understood your argument in your previous post, you agree that high density is fine in theory, but that the sprawl that invariably develops on the outskirts of the high density is problematic. I agree. The problem is with the sprawl, not with the high density.
Not many people won't to live in Manhattan-style, including people who live in otehr urban areas.
A lot more people want to live Manhattan-style than currently do live Manhattan-style. Look at Manhattan rents. A lot of people would love to live in Manhattan but can't find an apartment they can afford, so they settle for elsewhere. Many others are forced to live in other parts of the country for job, school, or family reasons, but would pick Manhattan in an instant if only they could drag it with them.
That gives a rough idea of a lower bound. What's an upper bound of how many want to live Manhattan-style? That's very hard to tell. So-called market preferences aren't relevant, since, in nearly every other populated part of the country, anything remotely Manhattan-style (densities even a fraction of what they are in Manhattan, mixed-use neighborhoods, small stores without parking that draw on walk-ins) is automatically eliminated from the running by zoning law before anyone gets to choose.
And we're forgetting about the presumably very large number of people who don't have a strong preference either way, but will base their decision of where to live primarily on other factors.
In terms of living space, obviously the Manhattan resident consumes less. But you should acknowledge that the actual footprint of NYC is much larger than the apparent footprint.
Take Suffolk County. To look at my town of Babylon (this is the "township" not the much smaller Babylon community), the town is fairly self-sufficient in terms of resources. The drinking water comes from the aquifer. Garbage and trash are recycled locally or incinerated locally. Yes, most of the developable land is used, but the residential lots are usually treed. Building height is limited to three stories town-wide and, if you were to look at Babylon from a high vantage point (I have) the town looks more like a forest than an urban area. Local ordinances now prevent most of the fertilizer and sewage problems of 20-30 years ago.
Now take the City. It houses many more people in a similar area, but: drinking water comes almost entirely from outside the City. Garbage goes to other places, both taking up space, financial resources, labor, fuel and creating pollution in the transfer.
The City's density creates the "urban effect". This is why the City is often as much as 10 degrees warmer (more at night) than surrounding, treed areas. That extra heat translates either into misery or lots of air conditioning, using extra fuel and, ironically, creates more heat than it removes (it's called physics).
When Manhattanites want to play, they don't spend most of their time on their property or in nearby parks, they go to the best stretches of Long Island beaches, some of which, thanks to Robert Moses, belong to the state, instead of the local communities. The Hamptons have been called (by Dan's Papers) "the sixth borough." Hint: The Hamptons are not in NYC. The traffic congestion you experience driving east of Speonk on a summer day is mostly City traffic transferred.
Yes, Manhattan is a "hot" prospect in real estate, but (a) it wasn't so long ago that this wasn't so and (b) this is not a function of Manhattan's extreme density--it is that, because of the renaissance of business and culture, it's "the place to be" for many, including the rich, the climber, the ambitious, the single, the young. This is not a demographic typical of most cities.
The problem here is, that shack is going to get torn down for a dozen McMansions. It's been rezoned, the services are run, the highways are widened, some schools have been built. And once the shack is there, the animals are gone, the runoff is disturbed, and the traffic and police presence are generated. Untouched land means untouched. The only way you do that is take the same amount of people who would have sprawled over it, sprayed pesticides on it, let their dogs run on it, and watered their grass, and instead pack them into a small area and then rezone what is left to prevent development. It sounds horrible if you're a developer. But what's the option?
Yeah, that'll happen.
I believe that Suanders' proposal had provisions not only for passenger but also freight rail, and that is a good thing. We rely WAY too much on trucks these days, and in particular the NY area's frieght rail is pitiful.
My professors do not seem to have the greatest opinion of automobile travel. This is not without reason. Automobile use has created a lo0t of social problems, for instance automobile dependence. Remember that not everyone is able to drive, and if there isn't adequate public transit, the young, elderly , and disabled must depend upon others for rides.
Proponents of public transit often point out that adding road capacity creates more demand, and often ends up adding to the problem it was supposed to solve. This is true, but it is also no less true of public transit. The most compelling example I can think of is our beloved NYC subway: The bulk of Brooklyn, Queens, and The Bronx were farmland befoer the subway were built. The subway enabled development in the boroughs as surely as the LIE enabled development on Long Island. The difference is in efficiency. A rail line might be as congested as a stretch of highway, but in being so it carries far more people in a much smaller ammount of space.
Ultimately, though public transit is superior in a number of ways, we NEED roads, and we need our cars, at least to a point. Automobile travel is by far the most flexible form of mechanized transportation, and in some ways it offers forms of reliability that public transit cannot. For instance I know that if (God forbid) we ever need to rush my 16-month old daughter to the hospital and it's not an ambluance level emergency, we aren't waiting for any bus or train to come. We're getting in the car and going straight to that hospital. Still, I would use transit a lot more in other circumstances if only it were better available. Even in NY, the most transit-friendly city in the USA, there are gaps.
As for the Oyster-Bay Rye Crossing, the road crossing would be the priority if only because it would take cars and trucks out of Queens, The Bronx, and western Nassau and Westchester, and (if anything) get people driving less. Even if you're against adding road capacity, I don't see how you can argue with a shortcut.
:-) Andrew
Also, if you put rail on it, that'd attract new routes too. There is an upside and a downside to every project. The road and possible increase in vehicular traffic is the downside, but a very small one. The gains from this would be great.
Also, the previous poster was not suggesting they will drive across the sound to a hospital, he was merely showing how cars are more effective in some situations.
In NYC, the frequent lack of private cars may contribute to the high number of costly ambulance calls, for precisely the reason you mention. I certainly can understand not wanting to use transit if you or a family member is very ill.
Not really. Roads work best when they're empty. Transit works best when it's crowded, though not overcrowded.
Ultimately, though public transit is superior in a number of ways, we NEED roads, and we need our cars, at least to a point.
Yet many of us don't have cars, including over half of NYC's households.
We do need roads, but in many cases the roads would work better with a priority system other than first-come-first-serve. Isolated examples include HOV lanes, bus lanes, and toll roads. If you have to make an urgent trip over the Queensboro Bridge, and you can't take transit for whatever reason, why should you have to wait in line behind all those folks who could just as easily take transit or could drive over an uncongested bridge instead?
Automobile travel is by far the most flexible form of mechanized transportation, and in some ways it offers forms of reliability that public transit cannot.
I'm not so sure about that. I live in Manhattan and work in Brooklyn (where parking isn't a concern -- I have a parking permit). I can drive to/from work or I can take two subways and a bus. Going to work in the morning, the train is extremely reliable -- if I'm at my home station at 6:30, I'm off the train between 7:30 and 7:35. (The bus is a different story entirely -- but the bus has to share the roads with cars.) Driving is usually somewhat faster, but it's dependent on traffic conditions on the Belt, which vary a lot. Going home, the train is even faster (since service is more frequent and the Brighton express is running), but the drive can easily take two hours or more. At least in my case, which is largely against the peak flow, the subway beats driving head over shoulders in terms of reliability. (And I can't get work done while driving. I write lecture notes every morning on the Q train.)
For instance I know that if (God forbid) we ever need to rush my 16-month old daughter to the hospital and it's not an ambluance level emergency, we aren't waiting for any bus or train to come. We're getting in the car and going straight to that hospital.
And those without cars will call the ambulance or will hail a cab (if cabs cruise the streets where they live). An occasional ambulance bill or cab fare pales in comparison to the cost of owning a car.
Still, I would use transit a lot more in other circumstances if only it were better available. Even in NY, the most transit-friendly city in the USA, there are gaps.
Agreed. Let's fill those gaps.
As for the Oyster-Bay Rye Crossing, the road crossing would be the priority if only because it would take cars and trucks out of Queens, The Bronx, and western Nassau and Westchester, and (if anything) get people driving less. Even if you're against adding road capacity, I don't see how you can argue with a shortcut.
Cost is one major sticking point. Would all of its costs be covered by tolls?
As for driving less, I'm not so sure. The Triboro Bridge didn't reduce traffic on the Queensboro. The Whitestone Bridge didn't reduce traffic on the Triboro. The Throgs Neck Bridge didn't reduce traffic on the Whitestone. Who's to say that an OBRC would reduce traffic on the Throgs Neck?
If I knew for dead certain that fewer people would drive and more would use ZipCar (subscription co-op rental) so I could count on it, I'd drop my (wonderful) car like a hot brick. So would others. Driving/transit is NOT either-or, it's both-and. I need to drive occasionally. Give me a way to do it without owning a car.
I say tunnel, b/c a bridge would hurt OB. Also, I say tunnel from GLEN COVE, NOT OB, b/c it's better rail access st Glen Cove. having trains comming from southwestern LI(like from Far Rockaway), and mineola would be forced to sorta loop after OB to reach the bridge. With my plan, they just continue north from Glen Cove and go underground.
The real big reason for a tunnel now, since it'd be outta Glen Cove, is that:
1. the rail extension wouldn't have anyplace to go above ground
2. My planned extension(which was always part of Robert Mosses's master plan) would go underground from its current terminus to Oyster Bay with and exit at 25A. From OB, it would curve west to Glen Cove. You find me space to do that entire stretch, and through Glen Cove, above ground.
The only other thing I could think of that would allow for a bridge, is the highway and rail extension are underground until just before the bridge, where they would become elevated and then enter the bridge, which may reall work
Also, I choose Glen Cove instead of OB for the following reasons:
1. If it were a bridge, while beautiful at times, would destroy Oyster Bay and Bayville
2. Glen Cove has 3 possibilities for bridge exits.
a. Exit to West Shore Rd in Port Washington
b. Exit to Rt 107
c. continuation to Seaford-OB expressway extension
Having all three of these exits would allow for traffic to disperse, rather than concentrating it on one road for a prolonged distance. Example: Bazuto Food Distribution makes lots of deliveries to Port Washington every week. So do lots of other trucking companies, most from Ct and upper NY. Now, instead of sending all these trucks via 287 to 25A, and then down the already congested Northern BLVD(25A), just send them to West Shore Rd, a very empty road directly into PW.
Trucks from CT and other locations north of the sound travel over new bridge/tunnel to Glen Cove and:
-Trucks to suffolk county continue on 287(Seaford-OB xpressway extension) to w/e road takes them where they wanna go, say, the LIE or sunrise highway
-Trucks to LI's south shore continue on 287 to the end, say, sunrise highway
-Trucks to central nassau take rt 107
-Trucks to North Eastern nassau take West Shore Rd or rt 107
What kinda bridge ya think, and what would the configuration be like?I say a cable stay bridge as such:
2 lanes in each direction(limits the auto use)
3-4 tracks in center of bridge to carry freight and passenger trains.
the I287 Long Island part would also be only 2 lanes until the current expressway(is it 2 or 3 lanes in each direction?)
the exits(Rt 107 and Port Washington exits) would only be one lane.
Bridge over LI sound as long as it is from Glen Cove, and filters to three exits below ground(one including the Seaford-OB xpressway extension(underground)), and is two lanes in each direction with 3-4 tracks in the center.
:-) Andrew
A Rye-OB Bridge would connect to an already mostly urbanized section.
(the 3 roads are West Shore Rd in Port Washington, 107 in glen cove, and the Seaford Oyster Bay Expressway)
One set of poles over the W Hempstead ROW has had new insulators installed. It's the one on the left. I wonder if any of those still have their "X" braces still intact.
wayne
I just don't think Roosevelt Field Mall is a better destination. Let's see some new housing being encouraged in that "Nassau Hub" area. With a residential component to it, then, I could see encorporating R.F.M. as a station in some light rail loop. Althogh, if the north/south routing is ever built, wouldn't the next most logical line be some type of service along the fairly urban Old Country Road? At least with a line like that, along a route that's fronted by businesses and backed up by residential districts, follows the standard terrain generally seen along rail mass transit lines. It even has multiple parallel bus service, which is a precurser to a rail based system in many cases.
Why not put new office construction in Queens? Jamaica's doing nicely; why not ENY, LIC, and Elmhurst?
I was favoring using a mostly existing infrastructure to implement a new north/south rail service from Valley Stream to at least Mineola. I don't see that negatively impacting the progress of centers such as Jamaica and E.N.Y. Hey, I'm a big E.N.Y. fan. I'd like to see skyscrapers clustered around there. (And as an aside, I want to see the underground Woodhaven station re-opened.)
But here's the problem, and I don't really know the solution: Wouldn't the transit to that kind of housing end up being a little like the rail service beyond Stamford or Hicksville? If you build it, they will come eventually, maybe, but the line is going to lose a ton of money in the meantime, or else you'll run such a light schedule that no one will use the train, and you'll have to put huge parking lots next to your high-density residential. That far out of town it's a chicken-and-egg situation -- which comes first, the 25-story tower or the commuter line?
We need a technology that's better than bus and lighter than light rail.
Let the OB-Mineola-CLP-WH-Valley Stream-Far Rockaway roll!!!
Oh, also, your NIMBY problem really doesn't exist. Well, it does, but a small one. The only residential areas along the line are from Washington Av to Clinton Rd. The rest is industrial and commercial areas. Also, they've delt with it before, so they gonna just have to deal with it again.
wayne
Especially ironic is that most of the discussion has been towards "Urbanification" and sprawl, since this particular station sits in an area which has changed very little in the past 40 years.
CG
There are many times on Subtalk when I could see somnething right out of "Blazing Saddles:" Amid the back and forth, the arguing, debating, flaming, whatever, all of a sudden, everything screeches to a momentary halt, and the little old lady turns to all of us and says, "Have you ever seen such cruelty?" And then all resumes as before.
Anyone know anything about this book: Moving the Masses: Urban Public Transit in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, 1880-1912, Vol. 31? It's not new (published in December 1980) but the subject matter sounds very interesting.
--Mark
If the caption is right, then by inference, by guess is that it is at 50th & Broadway, looking north. That looks like the Times Square area, the street crossing is a one-way street, and the configuration says it can't be 43rd Street. If it were south of Times Square, it would be on 7th Avenue.
Anyone have a better guess, or know for sure? More pix here.
Was is typical that kiosks at the same station would have different roof designs? Or does that indicate that one kiosk was installed at a later time?
The one in the foreground is an entrance. The one in the background is an exit.
One reason the LV's were able to operate at 25% greater service levels, while carrying greater crowds than today, is that the IRT did take passenger flow into account. Passengers were expected to enter at the end doors and exit from the center doors. There were platform gates that permitted passengers to safely queue up at the platform edge. This meant that departing passengers had a clear path to the exits and entering passengers did not have to wait for the passengers to leave the cars before entering. Then again the IRT wasn't waiting for CBTC to be their panecea.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The biggest problem today would be that the Entrance-Exit culture is long since history, so people would have to re-learn it, especially since some stations would have it, and others would not.
However, savvy passengers have learned that in some cases the A->B official distance can be much longer than the B->A, so it pays to walk against the flow.
I know I did this at Tottenham Court Road to get from the Northern Line to the Central in the late 1970s, but I wouldnt try it now, as I dont travel the tube every day and I would need to learn all the short cuts!
Remember when the north side of Atlantic Avenue was dominated by 3 whole blocks full of wholesale meat markets? I certainly do. The area is now dominated by Bruce Ratner's mostly undistinguished Atlantic Mall. I suppose anyone younger than 40 doesn't remember what the neighborhood business was before 1975 or so. The area had an aura of mystery for me in my pre-high school days because when i would ride the #63 bus, the bus would turn on Flatbush Ave and I never quite got a good look at what was on Atlantic Ave. east of it.
Till the mid-1980s, a forlorn elevated RR section remained spanning 6th Avenue just south of Atlantic. I never knew why it was still there. Arrt's Arrchives provides an explanation: it was used for LIRR freight service to the meat markets.
http://arrts-arrchives.com/meat.html
I'm a big fan of Arrt's Arrchives. It's a no bells, no whistles site, you really need a fast connection because he doesn't compress, but jeez, he has some great stuff.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's kind of like what's called a documentary history. Little explanatory text, but photos, maps, company paperwork, and snippets of publications weave a pretty thorough story. His Atlantic Avenue pages are fantastic. Next best thing to "being there."
I love the kind of website filled with photos of the past and compared to the present, it gives a good picture of what was there to people who never were in the area before or had no idea about its history.
Is this the same elevated structure the one that connected the LIRR to the old 5th Ave el? The el location is on my Hagstrom Laminated Atlas of 1989, how about the current edition (I don't have that one)?
Way back when they used to show Tim Meadows standing on a platform while a subway train pulled up during the opening theme.
Mark
There was another SNL subway sketch I remember. It featured Adam Sandler as a friendly subway musician, but all his songs were about pushing his listeners in front of trains and such.
Mark
And sure enough, ways were sought and found to spend that windfall $4.5 billion and then some.
Is there a real need for two new transit hubs, one at the WTC site and another at Fulton Street? Are those really the top transit priorities? What new subway services will they provide? Did Congress know what it was doing when it allocated the funds, or was it a knee-jerk response to 9/11?
What was clearly needed was to reopen the 1 & 9 line and PATH lines and rebuild the two stations (Cortlandt Street 1 & 9 and the PATH terminal) that were destroyed in the attack, but all of that is being done and paid for out of another pocket.
The main problem with South Ferry is the trains do not fit the station; the problem goes back to when IRT trains were extended from 5-car to 10-car trains, perhaps about 80 years ago. The single 5-car curved platform (with gap fillers) is too short for the 10-car trains that serve it, and I thought that was the justification for rebuilding it. The problem of course has nothing whatsoever to do with the 9/11 attacks, except that South Ferry happens to be in Lower Manhattan, where the federal funds are to be spent.
If Staten Islanders are only concerned about the crowded stairway, there must be a cheaper solution. It wouldn't cost $500 million to build another staircase!
Actually, yes. Fulton Street is a mess, and the WTC is being rebuilt from scratch, so why not put in a transit hub? If you don't you're just missing an obvious opportunity to build something that cannot be done when all the buildings are up.
"What was clearly needed was to reopen the 1 & 9 line and PATH lines"
And that has been accomplished.
"and rebuild the two stations (Cortlandt Street 1 & 9 and the PATH terminal)"
The cost of the new hub isn't going to be a big deal compared to the sum total of the new towers, memorial, new streets and everything else.
http://www.erha.org/pe.htm
http://www.westworld.com/~elson/larail/PE/tunnel.html
http://users.snowcrest.net/marnells/vineyardsub.htm
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/index1.html
Self explanatory. Ok, I'm going to bed. I have a big day in a few hours...MOD TRIP!!!!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The power was out immediately after the Malbone Street incident, too. But if the power were to suddenly come back... :(
You mean the wooden protection board ? Blackout 8/14/03.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I was also shocked to see that one of the people interviewed lives in my building.
Crib Notes From the Underground
--Z--
I think we both of us were happy with what we each walked away with, I know I am ... I had 280 unique NYC MCs when we met, I now have a few more, and the best part was that no money was exchanged. This is the part of this hobby that has given me the greatest pleasure, i.e. being able to swap cards vs. buying.
... well to be completely honest I did trade him a MC Catalog that I bought, but anyhow you get my point.
P.S. I'm still looking to make some new out-of-town friends. With the special cards coming here next year, I'm sure some of you in Chicago, San Fran, Houston, etc. would love to get your hands on them, well the two of us (the fellow who started this post & I) can fix you up !
Does anyone have any idea where this car came from? I don't even know if it's ex-PRR or ex-LIRR, much less when or how CK&S got it. Oddly enough, they also have an apparently intact NYC heavyweight MU car (photo here) as well as the remains of a Red Arrow center-entrance car on their property. Certainly a motley assortment of traction equipment!
Frank Hicks
As for the other ping-pongs, of the 9 rebuilt in 1975 for Steamtown service in Vermont in 1976, 7035 was wrecked about 20 years ago, 5 belong to Knox & Kane, 2 to the Ashtabula, Carson, and Jefferson, and one is pictured here. Most of the other 18 they bought back then were scrapped or sunk in Vermont, or in Scranton.
Frank Hicks
See: http://www.setrains.co.uk/connexnews/index.php?action=display&id=267
"South Eastern Trains is wholly owned by a subsidiary of the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) called South Eastern Trains Holdings (SETH). The Board of this company will provide strategic guidance and direction to SET, as well as funding and corporate governance. This arrangement is designed to enable SET to operate as a free-standing company in a similar way to other train operators."
South Eastern Trains takes over operation of the services at 2am on Sunday 9 November.
True, its not a real local stop because all 7's stop there; but on the other hand, its not a real express stop for the same reason.
Its so forgotten the TA never bothered covering the sign that says "Vernon-Jackson Ave's", even though Vernon became a Boulevard long ago. I think there's still a mosaic sign that says "To Vernon Avenue" and there are still bare bulbs in the station agent area.
As for underused, I disagree. I'm sure this pulls crowds from the LIRR.
This I must say is a very stupid "nomination" but you're not the only one I'm blaming for it.
Least used station is an objective quality that can be easily verified with the facts. It's not subjective like favorite station. Any further "nominations" for least used stations will incur my wrath.
The school closed in 1963; PS 1 opened in 1976. I think Robert F. Wagner (PS 78) on Center Boulevard is the closest elementary school.
And where are these new yuppies living? Are they really building nice housing in the old track yards?
Yes
Sorry... to clarify, the arts center opened in '76, thirteen years after the school closed. In the interim, the City used the building as a warehouse; it had been completely abandoned by 1974.
The school opened in 1893.
And V-J is halfway down the list for volume, so don't anybody go closing it on me. It's very busy at rush hour. Just from the cops stationed there to keep international terrorists like me from blowing up the Steinway tunnels.
Good old NYC. Elevator repair shops and the neighborhood church.
Manhattan Avenue
For a start, here's how I feel:
R32A and R32:35% <;(, 65% :). I'm happy because they used to be attractive, but they emerged too plain after their overhaul. I would still be a big fan of them if they retained the light-and-sign configuration, the blue side & storm doors and blue pantograph gates, not to mention the cheerful and comforting aqua-and-white interior with single hand grabs. The beige and gray is too discomforting and the horizontal bars are NOT nostalgic at all compared to single hand grabs. However, I will miss them because of the railfan window. No old-style # plates! >:(
R38:35% <;(, 65% :). Same reasons as R32/R32A.
R40:30% <;(, 70% :). They used to be futuristic until the ugly safety additions shortly after their delivery. Prior to their overhaul, they too had single hand grabs. The interior used to be actually THREE-TONE (white, aqua, and light teal) which was also comforting. Then they were given the less comforting and less peaceful beige and gray interior with the NOT nostalgic horizontal bars. The LOCAL/EXPRESS sign was removed. They also got pathetically small side door windows during overhaul. I'll miss them because they have the best railfan window you could get in the NYC Subway System. The seating, however, was extremely uncomfortable. Finally, they lost the old-style number plates.
R40M:50% <;(, 50% :). They used to have a modern look with the blue stripe and blue storm doors. The pre-overhauls got rid of the blue stripe. They were given nice dark blue doors (side & storm). Then they were overhauled. Yes, they lost the single hand grabs and the good-looking interior. The side AND storm door windows were pathetically small after overhaul. MY idea of a good-looking overhauled R40M is blue side AND storm doors with the originally large door windows plus the old-style # plates. Not to mention those famous single hand grabs. Of course, I'll still miss them for the railfan window.
R42:50% <;(, 50% :). See R40M.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
I, myself am fascinated with El's and their appearances, especially the BMT Dual Contracts's style. You can notice how much work gone into it and how it looks when some of the El gets high (like on the IRT Flushing) or that unique lattice-structure near the end of the Culver El.
Unfortunately there isn't much construction going on in NYC, and for other parts of the world you might take a look at www.metropla.net.
Here is a 1833 word description of the Metro Center station support facilities and connecting tunnels on the WMATA Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority system in Washington DC.
This is one of about 15 detailed descriptions I have written on various station in the WMATA system.
Metro Center (A01, C01)
Metrorail A Route Red line
C Route Blue, Orange lines
Station specific design
The Metro Center Station is one of the three major two level transfer stations in subway with two train halls crossing at 90. It is the hart of the system both literally and figuratively. The center of the station where the two arch vaults cross is the 0 point for all chaining measurements on all of the lines in the system pass through this station. The Green Line E and F Routes and the Washington Channel/Potomac River crossing of the Yellow Line L Route have there 0 point for there chaining measurements at the vault crossing in the Gallery Place station.
The upper level serves the Red Line A, B Routes with a twin platform station configuration. The lower level serves the Blue Orange Lines C, D Routes with an island platform configuration. The station train halls dimensions both upper and lower levels are wider to accommodate wider platforms giving this station the most floor square footage of any station in the system. The station is of cut and cover 22 coffer poured in place concrete type design with connecting tunnels on Red line A, B route being twin box cut and cover type construction. Connecting tunnels on Blue Orange lines C route to the north are 2 single track shield bored in earth with fabricated 5 piece steel linings the D route to the south are two 2 single track shield bored in earth with poured in place concrete lining.
Station location
The west end of Red Line A, B Routes train hall is located under G Street NW at a point just east of the intersection of 13th and G Streets NW. The west end is at the west side of intersection at 11th and G Streets NW. The north end of Blue Orange Lines C, D Routes train hall is located under 12th Street NW near mid block between G and H Streets NW. The south end is at middle of intersection of 12th and F Streets NW.
Station access and passenger flow
Access to the 2 Red Line A, B Route in train hall fare collection mezzanines is from 6 escalators 3 too each mezzanine located at each end of train hall. The top of the escalators accessing the east mezzanine is located in the building on the south east corner of 11th G Streets NW Escalators access the west mezzanine are located in the building on the south east corner of 13th and G Streets NW, The bottom of the surface entrance escalators access each mezzanine through passageways entering train hall end walls. Each mezzanine has 4 escalators for accessing platforms, 2 for each platform. Access to the 2 Blue Orange Line C, D Route in train hall fare collection mezzanines is from 5 escalators 2 to north mezzanine and 3 to the south mezzanine. The top of the escalators accessing the north mezzanine is located on the north east corner of 12th and G Streets NW. These escalators descend to a passageway connecting north mezzanine through opening in east wall of train hall arched vault. The escalators accessing the south mezzanine is located on the south west corner of 12th and F Streets NW. These escalators descend to a passageway connecting south mezzanine through opening in end wall of train hall. The north and south fare collection mezzanines are located on the same level as the as the Red line A, B Route platforms. 3 escalators and 3 sets of stairs on each mezzanine access the Blue Orange Lines C, D Route island platforms.
Elevator access to station is from north mezzanine. Surface elevator is located on the east side 12th Street north of the 12th and G Streets NW escalators entrance This elevator is of the hydraulic type, 2 elevator are used for mezzanine to platform, 1 form north mezzanine to lower level platform, 1 form south mezzanine to lower level platform. These elevators are of the hydraulic type.
Other features within station
On the north mezzanine, 12th and G Streets entrance free area is direct access to the Hect Company Department Store through the north end wall of the train hall. Access to the same store is also found at the 13th and G Streets mezzanine in the north wall of the passageway across from the bottom of the entrance escalators. These direct accesses were built after station opened. Another direct Access is in the 11th and G Streets entrance in the east end wall of passageway. It was built by WMATA for Woodward And Lothrop Department Store at there expanse, as Woodward And Lothrop had a tunnel connecting the two buildings on either side of G St and WMATA was obligated to restore the tunnel, so it was restore with direct accesses to station. Woodward And Lothrop in no longer in business. Today this direct Access passage way is used to access the DC Convention Center and a Hotel and other Retail spaces between the station and Convention Center.
Beyond station west (A Route Red Line)
At the west end of the station at track level are maintenance, mechanical, traction power tie breaker, AC power switch board, battery, communication, and train control rooms At mezzanine level are mechanical, cleaners rooms and employees restroom. Near mid block between 13th and 14th Streets under G Street NW is a pumping station. At the a point west of 14th and G Streets NW on the south sides of G Street NW is a fan shafts with 3 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans, The tunnels from the end of station to 15th and G Streets are of twin box cut and cover type construction. Tunnel to the west/northwest are in the Farragut North segment.
Beyond station east (B Route Red Line)
At the east end of the station at track level are AC power switch board, battery, and, mechanical rooms. At mezzanine level are mechanical, cleaners rooms and employees restroom. As Metro Center Station and Gallery Place Station are the two stations that are closest together there is only a fan shaft with 2 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans between the station. The tunnels between the two stations are of twin box cut and cover type construction.
Beyond station north (C Route Blue Orange Lines)
At the north end of the station are track level AC power switch board, battery, and mechanical rooms. At mezzanine level are air conditioning chillier for Metro Center and Federal Triangle stations, mechanical, cleaners rooms and employees restroom. The cooling tower is on top of the building that surrounds 12th and G Streets entrance plaza. At mid block of New York Avenue between 12th Street and 13th Street NW is a fan shaft with 5 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans. The tunnels from the end of station to 13th and I Street NW are 5 piece fabricated steel tunnel lining type. Tunnels east 13th Street under I Street NW are in the McPherson Square segment.
Beyond station south (D Route Blue Orange Lines)
At the south end of the station are track level are AC power switch board, battery, commutation, and train control rooms. At mezzanine level are mechanical, cleaners rooms and employees restroom. The tunnels from the end of station to Federal Triangle are steel reinforced concrete poured in place concrete type tunnel linings. A fan shaft with 4 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans is located north of 12th and E Street NW adjacent to the vent shaft is a traction power substation. Tunnels south E Street under 12th Street NW are in the Federal Triangle segment.
Station Dimensions
Metro Center Station A B Route Red Line 'upper level', C, D Route Blue Orange lines 'lower level'. Upper level twin platform configuration, 2 platforms 600' 182.88m X 18' 5.4m, track centers in train hall 14' 4.26m. The train hall is 600' 182.88m long X 68' 20.7m wide X 28' 3" 8.6m high from top of rail upper level. Lower level Island platform configuration 1 platform 600' 182.88m X 38' 1/2" 11.59m, track centers in train hall 48' 6" 14.6m. The train hall is 600' 182.88m long X 68' 20.7m wide X 45' 2 1/2" 13.77m high from top of rail lower level. Upper level is 16' 11" 5.15m above lower level.
Metro Center Station stats
Square footage/meters
Total entrance passageways;
Square feet 9186.34
Square Meters 853.43
A, B route Red Line is a twin platform configuration with in train hall mezzanine at both ends of station. Platform connects with C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines at mid train hall.
A, B route Red Line free area mezzanine;
Square feet 1847.22
Square Meters 171.61
Total A, B route Red Line paid area mezzanine;
Square feet 5541.07
Square Meters 514.78
Total A, B route Red Line mezzanine;
Square feet 7388.30
Square Meters 686.39
Total A, B route Red Line platforms track 1 and 2;
Square feet 28973.67
Square Meters 2691.74
C, D route Blue, Orange Lines is a island platform configuration with continues mezzanine over platform in train hall except where A, B route Red Line platforms and tracks passover C, D route Blue, Orange Lines.
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines free area mezzanine;
Square feet 5364.48
Square Meters 498.37
Total square ft C, D route Blue, Orange Lines paid area mezzanine;
Square feet 21496.07
Square Meters 1997.05
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanine;
Square feet 26860.56
Square Meters 2495.42
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines platforms track 1 and 2;
Square feet 20846.52
Square Meters 1936.70
Total platforms, mezzanines, and Passageways;
Square feet 127504.27
Square Meters 11845.53
These figures do not include square footage behind railings under escalators and stairs or WMATA maintained parts of new passageways in to The Hect Company Department Store.
Number of escalators
Total number of escalators from surface to entrance passageways;
11
Total number of escalators A, B route Red Line mezzanines;
8
Total number of escalators C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines;
6
Total number of escalators;
25
When station opened in 3 27 1976 there were provisions built in to the station to install 8 more escalators in the C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines. 6 of the locations had stairs installed instead of escalators the other 2 are still open.
Number of elevators
Total number of elevators from surface to mezzanine.
1
Total number of elevators between C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines and platform;
2
Total number of elevators;
3
The surface to mezzanine elevator accesses the north C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanine, no other elevators need be used to get to Red Line track 1 Shady Grove platform. To access Red Line track 2 Glenmont platform descend one level down to C, D route Blue, Orange Lines platform pass under A, B route Red Line and up one level up to Red Line track 2 Glenmont platform.
John
tim
I have no idea what the hell the R142 has to do with any of this.
The Van Courtlandt Madman
Train was #1575 with #484 in the middle and #100 at the other end.
wayne
wayne
How come 491 didn't make it? Another hot box, perhaps?
We got another good run with #1575 in the lead, running express through the East from Myrtle to Broadway Junction. You could feel #1575's wheels on the tracks - singing "I'M HOME! I'M HOME!". And she was indeed, signed up as "K".
wayne
This guy held absolutely nothing back all the way through the Queens Express. He charged and ran down the Elmhurst timer, and you could tell he was building up a head of steam at this point. He leaned into the Grand Avenue curve at at least 40 and then with a roar of the bull gears he was off and running. This was classic IND subway all the way.
wayne
WAYNE SPEAKS THE TRUTH! The Queens Express Run was TO DIE FOR! OMG, it was AMAZING! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST! AMAZING! AWESOME! FAST!
Thank you DIV C and all the people that worked on the cars at 207 St! You need to have a reception at the Transit Museum to be HONORED! OMG, THIS TRIP ROCKED!!!!!!
wayne
By the way, I'm so pissed, I just found out that my Astoria/Flushing Line SMEE trip photos are among the casualties of my computer crashing last week. I last saved photos to disk on 8/17, and the trip was 8/23 : (
All I have left from the trip are the ones I uploaded to imagestation.com, and those are the 35% reduced ones : (
Faster, and no gravity to assist.
And let's not forget on the return trip on the express after leaving Roosevelt Ave, passing 65th Street. Everybody on this board are always bragging about the R32s. Well in my opinion, the R32s had absolutely nothing on what I experienced with those R1/R4/R7As today.
I would pay $$$ to see this, as long as it was best out of three or something.
Speaking of which, I rode on an R-32 F train all the way to 179th three weeks ago and noticed there isn't all that much distance from where the line straightens out after the curve past Van Wyck Blvd. onto Hillside Ave. to Sutphin Blvd. Those two rocket trains you've talked about (R-6 1233 and R-10 3080) must have taken that curve at a healthy rate of speed if Sutphin Blvd. was a blur.
This trip also marked the very frist time these pre-war cars visited both levels of the Archer Ave subway. Possibly the 63rd St line also.
It seems to me that the more they run these old cars, the better they perform.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok, this needs to be our new campaign slogan. Should I order the shirts? What color would look good? And what font should we write the slogan in?
wayne
wayne
That was because they thought you were part of the trip, not because their intention was to offer you a free ride, but you knew that ?
Selling tix through the mail won't help. A cheater will still board somewhere enroute. Spot checking for tix between long photo stops would help.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, while I agree with much of what you said, the MOD fares have nothing to do with real fares. I think the $35.00 is very fare (pun intended) for these trips. After all, it is for a good cause, and well worth a day's fun. In fact, while I don't think it should be more, some excursions are very pricey. If I recall, the TM trips were much more money when they ran them, and the LIRR ones were also much more money. $35 = help with a good cause, and a great trip.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
Chuck Greene
1) When I tried to pay cach for my outbound ticket the Ticket Agent had the NERVE to demand ID. Dude, they are fucking commuter rail tickets, not Amtrak.
2) My train 8:40 arrived about 8 minutes late for reasons known. When riding MARC try to catch trains that originate in Baltimore Penn else you might get held up.
3) Our train kept getting funky cab signal codes that led to several delays.
4) Our mono-level train was diesel hauled and acceleration was really poor.
5) I saw a Phaze V SW-1200 switcher at union station. It looked really cute.
6) I got some nics pics of K tower. The double slip switches at WAS are of the cheap variety without movable point frogs.
7) I caught the 5:20 express train back. It had about 10 bi-level cars and was pulled by an HHP-8. We made good time but were absolutely KILLED by long delays unloading at stations. MARC really needs to make people hussle.
Man, if Ron in BS and/or CC Local are still around and one of them snags that coveted spot I'll eat some of my Redbird rust flakes.
You're already obviously suffering from lead poisoning. Would there be a difference? :0)
The bodies are indeed steel. The paint, on the other hand...
When I hit 500K, no one complained. When Wayne Mr. Slant40 tried to hit 100K and failed, no one complained about that, and when ROY recently tried for 600K and failed miserably, still, no one complained.
The 600 thousandth post is a significant event, it shows how important this board is and how many discussions we've had. It's an important milestone.
And at least this was the celebration can be in a dedicated thread instead of hijacking a normal thread.
Hewlett-Packard's calculator division once opined that the largest sane, imaginable number might be "several gadzillions."
Plus 1, of course. :0)
I don't have enough time to give you the standard name of 1010,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 also known as a googolplex.
A googol is 10100, also known as 10 dotrigintillion.
That makes sense.
This was never true, since the plex notation works like this:
nplex=10n
Tenplex=1010=10 billion
Hundredplex=10100=Googol=Duotrigintillion
Googolplexplex=10googolplex
Now my brain hurts.
duotrigintatrecentitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilitremilillion
What a shame. If there were a predetermined finite number of posts in the lifespan of the board, maybe it would cut down on the drivel.
Recurring numbers... now that's an interesting sample. A quick resum...
555555 the timing of picks
444444 OT on the Bronx Zoo
333333 the possibility of a Brighton Shuttle train whilst Stillwell's closed
222222 the alignment of Queens Plaza station and cutting back the G
111111 the BMT is better than the TA
99999 Wayne failing to get post #100000
88888 let's tunnel between Boston South and Boston North stations
77777 the evil Moses' wishes for a Battery Bridge
66666 EB Port Jeff line train times
55555 a former incarnation of American Pig smiling about something
44444 LIRR line by line guides
33333 speed of R68s and R68As
22222 windows falling out of R16s
11111 welded rail and the Sea Beach line
9999 jumping a turnstile even though you have an Unlimited
8888 LT not putting turnstiles in some stations
7777 Astoria NIMBYs and putting a line to LGA via a Power Plant and a Sewage Works
6666 consultants are a waste of money
5555 picks yet again
4444 MVMs and their limitations
3333 let's move the UN to Governor's Island
2222 a 42nd St moving walkway
1111 the Fulton Lcl - Court St - 2nd Av routing
999 Hudson Terminal and H&M's expansion plans
888 the lack of abandoned tunnels in NYC
777 the Map
666 the number of the devil - rather appropriately about buses
555 SEPTA not getting there
444 the worst possible ride on the Subway
333 browsers, cookies, message board format YAWN!!!
222 63rd St connector
111 Turboliners
99 the blurriness of the distinction between LRVs and Subway cars
88 cleaning facility at CI
77 R32 door controls
66 !!!DELETED!!!
55 SIR not having conductors any more
44 unused tracks
33 token clerks
22 model subway cars
11 brass model subway cars
9 !!!DELETED!!!
8 !!!DELETED!!!
7 the new board being wonderful
6 oddball AMTRAK coach at Boston South
5 Dave P saying thanks, Wayne
4 Wayne saying thanks, Dave
3 !!!DELETED!!!
2 R62s on the 7
1 New SubTalk System
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Z--
--Z--
#3 West End Jeff
I vow to make the 2 millionth post there and not let the bastards in the nextel forum get the millionth(marker) post again ( they made the 1 millionth post).
Mike needs to get out more... it does a brah good! :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Whaddyaget?
til next time
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/nyregion/09SUBS.html
I was watching a Kojak rerun this afternoon. It was filmed after 1975, because the twin towers were clearly visible in the scenery shots. It still hurts a lot to watch a scene like that. :0(
But the progress at Ground Zero is a positive thing. A garden opens here, new transformers in the ground there, 7 World Trade Center on its way up; damaged buildings at the periphery are repaired and being reopened one after the other; PATH is coming back in two weeks.
I want all of us to keep fighting to bring Lower Manhattan back to life. We must not fail!
We already failed. The towers will not be rebuilt. The terrorists have won.
--Z--
When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941, we lost nearly every battleship in the Pacific Fleet.
Had Jersey Mike been alive then (actually, there were people in the War Department like him), we would have rebuilt a whole bunch of battleships at his insistence, and the Japanese aircraft carriers would have kicked our asses from one end of the Pacific to the other. Instead, the USS Enterprise, the only target really worth bombing, was unhurt, and our brand new carriers won the war in the Pacific for us.
The New WTC will be magnificent. Different than the previous one, but it will be magnificent.
An alternate arguement is that we built ships that were MORE grand than the battleship (carriers). I dare anyone to say that the new propaganda spike is going to be more grand than the WTC.
--Z--
Reread your history. Yes they were rebuilt, but played only a minor role in the destruction of the Japanese fleet. Their most important role was in support of amphibious forces.They made contributions.
But without the switch to carriers, the battleships would have gone to a watery grave all over again.
They were helpful in that role, but without the carriers they would not have stayed afloat to even deliver that firepower.
"The Iowas went on to serve in Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon and Desert Story "
The Iowas stayed in the fleet purely due to politics. Since WWII the US fleet has had total superiority on the open ocean thanks to carriers and nuclear submarines. The battleships participated in the Vietnam conflict protected by guided missile cruisers and fighter aircraft launched by the carriers and from land bases. They were helpful but not terribly unique and certainly not cost-effective. Eventually, the Navy got the message and decommissioned them. Even by Desert Storm their job could have been done cheaper through other means. Today it would be ridiculous to use them, as Gulf II proved.
You need to read your history, Mike - and not just the exploits of the battleships.
NYC is better than having some lame brain spike that serves no other purpose besides propaganda and a view for tourists. I mean it already has one out on that island in the harbour. There are two ways to succeed in life: gimmicks and substance. What does NYC want to be? A gimmic or a place of substance?
Here I agree with you. While it is cost-prohibitive and silly to use battleships in combat today, they are great as tourist attractions. It is great that we did not scrap all of them. In fact, I would argue that you should re-activate their galleys/mess halls and have sailor-uniformed people serve hot food!
Yes, they did, but even by then their roles were being taken over by carrier aircraft. And without air protection, they were dead ducks.
Incidentally, a Navy drill at Pearl Harbor (Navy planes "attacking" the fleet)demonstrated the effects of a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor itself in 1939. The Navy completely forgot the lessons learned by 1941.
Ron: Its true that the carriers became the main striking force of the fleet in World War II but the battleships still had an important role to play.
I call your attention to the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 14-15, 1942, in which the USS WASHINGTON (BB-56) went toe to toe at point blank range with the Imperial Japanese Navy battleship "KIRISHIMA" and two Japanese cruisers. After seven minutes of fighting the KIRISHIMA was going down for the count and those Japanese crusiers were headed for the hills.
This was the first time in their history that the Japanese Navy had ever lost a night battle and it took an American battleship to do it.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
An honorable and proud achievement for the USS Washington, but pretty meaningless overall for the campaign.
"This was the first time in their history that the Japanese Navy had ever lost a night battle and it took an American battleship to do it. "
Very true, but not of much significance to the campaign. A side shw at best. This is not to demean the efforts of our servicemen, of course. Every Japanese ship sunk i WWII was a step in the right direction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron: Guadalcanal was certainly not a sideshow. It was a grueling campaign lasting for sveral months comprised of several naval battles and many land fights. It was a battle won by increments and those increment added up to a huge victory.
Guadalcanal continued the attrition of the Japanese Naval air forces that was begun at Midway and never allowed the Japanese to recover from that defeat. It began the retreat of the Japanese forces back to the Home Islands. Far from being a sideshow it proved that US Forces could go toe-to toe with the Japanese and defeat them in battle. It was a near run thing too. We lost about three of those naval engaements and two came out more or less as a dead heat.
The war was won by the combined efforts of all the US services and by the effificent and competent use of all arms available from the smallest PT boats and lowly cargo ships to the great carriers and battleships.
The battleships did need the carriers but the carriers needed the battleships. Consider what happened to the British carrier HMS Glorious when the German battlecrusiers Scranhorst and Gneienau caught up with her. Or what happened to the USS Gambier Bay when the Japanese battleship Yamato found her in the Battle off Samar.
Also consider this. It was the Iowa Class battleships that were the first US Navy ships capable of fire nuclear ordinace long before the carriers and submarines.
Larry, RedbirdR33
You evidently did not understand what I posted. Please reread it carefully. Guadalcanal was the main event. The battleship vs. battleship matchups were the side show.
The battleships were a valuable addition to the artillery assets of the Marines, but they were useless without air superiority from aircraft carriers protecting them. WWII was probably the last conflict where the battleships were even the best choice to accomplish the mission.
Thank you for your patronizing.
Go to bed. You have school tomorrow, don't you?
The problem with most people on SubTalk is that there are many who believe that flamage doesn't solve anything. On the contrary, you have responded condescendingly and patronizingly to a huge number of SubTalkers, all of whom have decided to not respond to your disrespect. But appeasement never worked, you continue to INFECT this board. It's too bad that only Jersey Mike and I have decided that your defeat is an important goal if reasonable discussion is to survive on this board.
I could have come up with some witty response to you insult, but I won't bother, I'd just be sinking to you level. The day you stop posting to this board will be a glorious day indeed.
And I'm sure there are those people who will think that I'm a hypocrite and that I'm guilty of the same things I accuse RonInBS of doing. Well, if you don't feel that my alleged crimes warrant confrontation, then they aren't significant at all.
YOU ARE THE LOWEST LIFE FORM THERE IS. AT EVERY OPPURTUNITY YOU GET, YOU INSULT PEOPLE, YOU ACCUSE THEM OF THINGS THAT YOU YOURSELF DO AND THEN WHEN THEY CALL YOU UP ON THEM, YOU MAKE A THROWAWAY AND INSULTING RESPONSE.
I've been on SubTalk longer than you have. I enjoy reading and posting to SubTalk. You are a menace that must be eradicated, you contribute nothing but your lies and your condescention.
If you're so bored living in Kansas City, instead of condescending to others on SubTalk, do something that will benefit the world, like jump off a bridge or wrap your lips around a revolver.
You're the one SubTalker whose pain or loss I would not lament.
I wonder if I'm making a mistake in responding. After all, like all trolls you probably get off on the attention you get, but unfortunately, in your case, ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.
You are.
Why should I live with it? Ignoring a problem won't make it go away. If I didn't care for SubTalk anymore I would leave. But the board isn't the problem.
And if you do what you are doing, he will act the same (including the way he acts to me).
My last comment on this topic: I think you are galvanizing neither people nor aluminum.
It is easy to simply attribute an argument to "ad hominem." But you are far too experienced to do that. So stop it. And grow a thicker skin. Debate can and should be rough and tumble at times.
Denying that something doesn't exist doesn't make it so.
And you do not engage in debate, debate requires that your opponent be respected. You do not treat your opponents with respect, you only say you do.
Pig skin IS thick.
I agree with these statements. And I for one do not want you to leave the board.
The converse of that statement is not true.
Why don't you use the killfile?
And the killfile doesn't work very well. If someone had killfiled you, then my response to you would make the post visible.
Why deprive him?
:0)
His response to your post doesn't show him to be any better a person, it just reinforces his position as a pathetic lowlife.
SubTalk isn't King of the Cage; no one can be "defeated." It's silly to try.
Many people disliked Train Dude, he is now gone.
People have left before because they were fed up with this board.
Train Dude was only an amateur at that kind of "straight up." He did not do the damage these experts did.
Nonetheless, as far I am concerned, he can be here and post away if he wants. Fine with me.
Oh, and then there's Meyer Kahane (he's dead, so his account is paid with the house, if you get my drift).
Goodness. RonInBayside, I think you are way off the beam on this one. Think of how much "racial hatred" is espoused against Jews. If you don't push back sometimes when someone keeps pushing...you must lose. I recall the JDL...and the JDO. They made me feel proud, made me feel part Jewish...and I'm a "Roman Catholic" kinda guy. I've seen too much hatred directed towards the Jews in my lifetime to not admire the fighting spirit behind those organizations. They had balls, RonInBayside. I felt a great sadness at hearing of the murder of Meir Kahane.
Gee Ron, that's mighty generous of you. Do you have a say in who posts here, too or do you just do the background investigations?
-Are A kid
-hold an opinion contrary to his (regardless of your opinion's merits)
-hold a job where you serve other people (If he knew what I did for work now, he'd probably spit on me)
-make typing errors
-Are Jersey Mike
-Don't agree with him on every single point
If you don't do these things/ aren't one of these things, then Train Dude was probably your message board pimp.
Points 1, 2 and to a large extent 6 apply to RonInBS. 5 applies too, except replace "Jersey Mike" with "American Pig."
Didn't TD chase away the jovial heypaul?
That means nothing, actions speak louder than words.
People like Train Dude respect those who are willing to learn and share information about railroading. Half-baked ASSumptions that are defended by their authors even after their refutation irritate him. T.D. has a sense of right and wrong- Criminals should be punished and society protected. Train Dude has no patience for those who criticize the MTA for not acting to preserve rolling stock, while the critics do nothing to preserve equipnent already in museum hands. SubTalk has degenerated immensely since the professionals like Thain Dude, On The Juice and others no longer post here. Bickering and whole threads about how to deal with "enemy" Subtalkers are being circulated and every day less and less is being learned about the Subway here. If Train Dude comes back and you don't wish to interact, DON'T. but SubTalk would be a MUCH better place with him back.
-hold an opinion contrary to his (regardless of your opinion's merits) -- He is mostly a conservative, -I am a liberal
This post clearly confirms my point here. In this series of points, Train Dude merely dismissed my ideas as ones that only work in 'lionelville.' It's obvious that I have tons of proof, (the MTA operated the service in question back in '95, and operates it now, but Lawrence Reuter's statement said: "The line is already running at full capacity). Obviously, I'm just a stupid foamer because I didn't agree with him that Lawrence Reuter was GOD.
-hold a job where you serve other people (If he knew what I did for work now, he'd probably spit on me) --T.D. respects honest workers
OH REALLY!?! I draw my conclusions from this post. It's obvious what he thinks of people who hold service jobs.
I am NOT Train Dude's whore. The fact that Train Dude is not here proves that he needs no whore. If he was here, you would not have the courage to attack him like this.
1. Train Dude is not here because some of the more respected members of Subtalk began to point out his cranky attitude. Look at the title of the last thread he contributed to.
2. I wouldn't have the courage to 'attack' him? Much to the contrary, I had the guts to stand up to him. In response to the previously mentioned post, I challenged him. What did he do? Put his tail between his legs and refused to respond. Who's the coward?
3. In response to his "Policy Change for me" (the last linked post) many of his 'working girls' simply crawled out of the woodwork to agree with him, ignoring the fact that he just put Car Wash employees, McDonald's workers and Criminals on the same plane. Apparently saying "here's your change" is just as bad as being a rapist. You all are definately his little whores.
-make typing errors --Everybody including T.D. makes typos
Really? Does the name MrX2001 ring a bell? Granted, his spelling was horrendus, but Train Dude would occasionally dismiss his posts simply because of the spelling, and refuse to answer his questions.
You can defend train Dude all you want, but the fact remains, he was a big jerk. His snide remarks and nasty attitude far outweighed any benefits of having him here.
This is the internet, kid. Move on.
I haven't mentioned this in the previous 8 months once.
Agree. Except that he can't always share information, because of proprietary issues.
but SubTalk would be a MUCH better place with him back.
Agree.
I have worked in manufacturing for over 25 years and I know that it takes leaders like Train Dude to MAKE NATIONS GO.
Train Dude's method is one of fear. He has a reputation for being extremely strict, and adhering to rules. It works, but it causes your men (or women) to despise you, and first chance they get, they'll turn on you.
On the other hand, if you win the respect of your men, you can get them to work just as hard, if not harder, and they'll support you. I know some TA managers like that. Such a workplace is muc better than one under TD.
T.D. is really a good person.
Care explaining his belittling attitude?
It's also been posted here.
It's when I'm surrounded by people who condone his actions that I get annoyed. And these people have resurfaced to defend him.
On the one hand, his inside information was nice to have. On the other, we could do without his attitude -- he did get unnecessarily nasty at times, IMO, especially directed at people he decided he didn't like.
I really don't want to dwell in this thread, especially since this person was gone before I got here but I think he'd be a fool to get nasty with people he liked. Don't you?
Then he was a fool.
Surely you've seen some of his posts, either lurking here before posting or perusing the archives?
That was frustrating about Train Dude, his combination of knowledge and bad attitude. Usually people with bad attitudes are know-nothing idiots. Not him.
Who in the !@$$)&* do you think you are, the SubTalk police. Train Dude is one of a very few posters who provideed information on how subway cars REALLY work. Steve's statements were reactions to OTHER people's actions and misbehaviors. If you really read Steve's posts you would know that he knows the evil of prejudice in it's rawest form. If Steve returns to SubTalk, he deserves to be treated with courtesy and respect. Today's realities may forbid him from discussing all of the interesting technical matters which helped to make SubTalk informative to all, from the youngest railfan to the tech-heads like me who want to know all about what makes trains go, but Steve still deserves to be treated civilly by all.
However, he would enter into very opinionated debates (in a nasty way) at times. There were some that he seemed to go after every time they posted. There is more that many of us oldtimers saw, but I'm not going to repeat it.
I think that Dave & the rest of us agree that this is not the proper forum for that. Life is too short for contraversy & nastyness all the time. There are folks here that I don't care much for, I just don't read their posts, why couldn't have Steve done that ?
Well, he not here anymore, I hope he's happier.
Absolutely true. However, he did not treat many others civilly. He brought up the personal failings of someone he disagreed with as a reason why that person's opinions did not have merit.
In one case I got involved in personally he belittled a chronic nemesis as knowing nothing about a subject when in fact he was wrong and the other person was right.
(The subject happened to be the physics of motion in one dimension, things like d= (v initial) t + 0.5t^2, which is something I understand a lot better than subway equipment. When I pointed out his mistakes he went silent; he never apologized.)
I really read Steve's post and I completely agree with you - except that you neglected to mention Steve also PRACTICED that prejudice in its rawest form. Some of his posts are the sincerest form of flattery a member of Nazi Party or Ku Klux Klan could ever read.
Steve's Jewish, it's true - but that doesn't keep him from stomping on others.
I wouldn't even care so much if that stupidity was confined to Subtalk. But he solicited others including myself, off-line, to participate in advocacy that involved stereotyping and harassment of Muslims, Arabs, and other ethnicities Steve didn't like.
Where's your PROFF?
Steve and I dealt off-line. I had no problems with this guy. He also knows that I am Asian. I got past his alleged prejudice because I am confident that I am no worse than anyone else, white or otherwise, at what I do. People who cry 'racial prejudice' when things don't suit them deserve everything they get.
Ron, what you said here could constitute libel. This is a public forum.
AEM7
I'm glad you didn't.
"Ron, what you said here could constitute libel. This is a public forum. "
Only if knowingly false. He sent me emails, which I will not reproduce here.
But Ron notes the correction? Where are you noting the correction, Ron? You summized incorrectly? Why did you summize at all. Perhaps our host, Dave can simplify things for you. Maybe he can put a little yellow star Icon next to the names of the Jewish posters so you won't have to summize incorrectly next time. Maybe he might give the Irish a shamrock Icon. Maybe a little sombrero for the Mexicans. This way you won't need to summize incorrectly about me. By the way, Ron, what Icon shall we put next to your name?
I believe Ron has said that he's Jewish.
That was not the point. Why should anyone's nationality or religion be an issue here?
I didn't raise the issue for its own sake. I thought he was Jewish as a point of fact, but another Subtalker assures us he is not. End of story. The rest of my comments are unaffected by this, but are based purely on his behavior. Period.
"Maybe he can put a little yellow star Icon next to the names of the Jewish posters so you won't have to summize incorrectly next time. "
I am Jewish myself so the above comment is nonsensical. I got the distinct impression that Train Dude wouldn't mind that tactic applied to Middle Eastern folks and Muslims. So you're describing his approach perfectly.
Are you serious? You're defending a guy who was nasty and prejudiced, and you ask me who do I think I am?
Train Dude is one of a very few posters who provideed information on how subway cars REALLY work.
And in your simple mind, this justifies his nasty, disgusting attitude. Most people would see this as unacceptable behavior, but many of you drooling railfans just put up with it because he could tell you the acceleration figures for an R68. What a trade-off!
Steve's statements were reactions to OTHER people's actions and misbehaviors.
No, he clearly directed his hateful comments at me, and despite what all these TA employees on THIS SITE have said, I am in fact right on the issue that was debated in that thread. Kicking a plastic bottle so that it ROLLS down the platform does not give a C/R the right to follow kids and yell at them. Add to that he abandoned his post. Then, train dude calls me an ass, and tells me I need to grow up. Then, he says that people with service jobs are equal to the type of slime that deserves incarceration. All of this was directed at ME. Say whatever you want, because in your twisted mind what he said wasn't really that bad.
Had he likened women/minorities/people of alternative sexual lifestyles to thieves, rapists and murderers, everyone would have had a fit! But, no, it's alright for him to say this about people in low service jobs. Well, I hold a low service job. Hell, someone even said they did one of the specific jobs that he attacked! Why don't you and Train Dude put your hoods on and just lynch the 2 of us?
If you really read Steve's posts you would know that he knows the evil of prejudice in it's rawest form.
Oh, so if we read between the lines, we'll find out that he was the victim of prejudice? Really? Cuz all I see are the condescending, nasty, bitter, disgusting remarks he used to respond to people, especially the uneducated. Imagine if all people were like that? Then, we'd be back in the dark ages, with an aristocracy, and a stupid common people, worthless for nothing except 'eating cake'.
If Steve returns to SubTalk, he deserves to be treated with courtesy and respect.
There would be no need to say this if he were not a nasty troll. But you're worried that I'll chase away the 'only person who can give you knowledge about trains!' If he treated others with respect, he would get that reciprocated.
Today's realities may forbid him from discussing all of the interesting technical matters which helped to make SubTalk informative to all, from the youngest railfan to the tech-heads like me who want to know all about what makes trains go, but Steve still deserves to be treated civilly by all.
I don't care about him not being able to write about some 'security sensitive' topics. I care about him making disgusting remarks, and people like you supporting him. And get this straight: he's the one who doesn't treat others civilly.
BTW: Maybe Train Dude wasn't your pimp, but you surely idolize him in a way I've not seen since the disciples of Christ. When I pointed out those bigoted remarks, you did the exact same thing he did, REFUSING TO RESPOND TO ME, AND WRITING A GENERAL RESPONSE IN ANOTHER POST. Why you'd idolize a hatemonger, I don't know, unless you are an aspiring hatemonger.
Who in the !@$$)&* do you think you are,
J trainloco, One of Train Dude's favorite targets. I'm only one of MANY.
P.S.- Teeray: DO NOT RESPOND SAYING THAT I'M STUCK ON THIS! It's not like I'm harping on this point month after month. This is the first time it's been brought back up. And this is the nature of thread based discussions. This is how a discussion on any webboard works, we discuss something for a while, not one-and-done posting. Don't like it? Then join the other 497651 subtalkers who have me on killfile.
Huh?? A pimp?? I surprised you would even brought up such word.
We don't *HAVE* to like each other. We're mostly FOAMERS here! Members of *ONE* big DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY! We should ALL take a moment and THINK about that ... If you ***EVER*** wanted to define a "minority group," PUT YER FACE IN A MIRROR! :)
Hell ... I took the TA cure! I was a foamer when I was growing up. How sick? I'd "borrow" a shopping cart from the local supermarket before I as a teenager ... my dog would jump up INTO the cart, and off I went, barreling down the sidewalk with my right ear up against my arm, which was stretched along the metal of the left side of the basket, listening to the SIDEWALK CRACKS against the wobblywheels making that oh so wonderful stickrail, SUBWAY SOUND!
Seriously - if you live where there's a supermarket that has shopping carts out by the parking lot, and NYC style "sidewalk squares" (don't STEP ON A CRACK!) ... do what I just described. They STILL sound the same (if they're not plastic) ... that's how sick *I* was as a "foamerette" growing up! So, Like Rush Gasbag, I had to take ... THE CURE! Applied for a conductor test, got appointed a year later after doing "CENSUS", and BOLTED to Brooklyn for schoolcar. Damned near wet my pants when I got my letter.
First day, saw some folks who knew me and after explaining what the HADES I was doing there at 14th Street (that's where you reported back in those days, terminal of the Canarsie - "upstairs") they all contemplated putting in for retirement. But they warned me about the situation with "foamers that slip through the civil service test and get 'appointed'" ... had to CURTAIL my zeal, and NOW! :)
Well, working for the TA *was* the cure ... but as I expect old Rush will also, I've gone into "remission" after discovering Subtalk. So yeah, Unca Selkirk's a "Nouveau foamer" once again (like I said, TRY that thing with the shopping cart, you'll look STUPID but you won't give a qwap, you're a FOAMER fer krimminy's sake - it's OK!) and that's made me more aware of the folks here and why it's so damned SILLY for all the backstabbing, biting, kicking and dress-tearing. Meow. :(
Face it folks, we're screwups, we SMELL, we have the maturity of a five year old. We're like Uncle Todd who waves his ... err ... umm ... "brake handle" ... but we're ***ALL*** family ... we have our favorite aunts, we have uncles we want to KILL. We have cousins who are doofuses, and we have Kenny the Gardner, who if you don't take his Twister away, won't whiz on your petunias and will stumble home on his own.
WE ARE ALL FOAMERS ... and there ain't no damned 12 Step plan ... DEAL with it ... AND EACH OTHER. Or Uncle Todd's going to give you transit and weather together and beat you to a pulp. (sorry for the last part, but I didn't mean *THAT* Uncle Todd and needed to redeem my sorry foamer butt before Todd kicks it) ... heh.
So that was what you called the picure of donkey with the hat on... priceless...
MY FAULT!
I didn't think there was anybody not IN on a longstanding internet joke ... "asshat" is what you say on a site that's likely to get censored by "internet filtering" much like my "qwap" and other "don't read me filter censor tags" ... whoops! :)
But that picture *was* an "asshat" ... sorry folks missed it ... HEY! I'm a bumpkin from upstate now ... whoda' THUNK it that "city slickers" woulda gotten conned by RUBES!?!?!
Stand back ... let me ENJOY this moment! :)
Oh yeah! I've killfiled many an asshat! Down with the asshats! Up with David Gunn!
You're from the Bronx and that borough is known to have some steep hills. Since shopping carts have no brakes, hope you didn't do a Malbone with someone's Rambler ! OUCH !
Bill "Newkirk"
But in the old AMUE's where you didn't have dynamic, and it was all air, them cast iron shoes'd get eaten up too. But in this case, I was talking about Buster Browns which of course didn't have slack adjusters. :)
Had to go for those composition brake shoes ... KEDS!
I have a life. Maybe I'll just get back to it.
Because he was the topic of discussion, not me.
What about You? Tell us what you do.
Work full-time as an elevator operator/doorman, attend school, play college basketball.
I volunteer and am on the Board of Directors of our local rail museum trying to keep a good sized equipment collection alive and running. I read and study technical material so that I can evaluate and repair vintage locomotives and rolling stock and I also collect and operate postwar Lionel trains.
You're still stuck on this whole 'trains make it better!' thing. I don't care how much somebody does for railcars, it doesn't stop others from being nasty people.
Get Involved, that is the best Train Dude vaccine.
Who said I needed a vaccine? I don't really care much about Train Dude, the only reason I'm going through this is because people are saying that he was such a great person when that was not the case for many of us.
BTW, out there there are people who are HARDCORE JERKS,
Being a bigot qualifies you as such.
Experience will show you that Train Dude really isn't such a bad guy, after all.
He professed hate toward people who are in my position. 'Bad guy' doesn't explain the least of it.
maybe a few redbirds could have been saved.
There are more important things than redbirds. You can't understand that.
Are you Japanese? Only that country has elevator operators. The rest of us made them redundant with automatic elevators. Unless you mean a grain elevator.
does the building have the old otis elevators??.. i have an old otis controller that i once mounted in the r9 cab...
there was an operator on west 16th near 7th who had a real smooth hand on the control... he could bring the cars level to the landing real smooth...
I'll see if you could ride in one of them. Probably not possible, but I'll see.
there was an operator on west 16th near 7th who had a real smooth hand on the control... he could bring the cars level to the landing real smooth...
I'm getting good at it, but it's hard when all of them operate differently.
Sometimes, I'll be talking to my passenger, and I'll miss the floor completely. Good thing the tennants don't ride the service cars!
i think you'll get a laugh out of this picture
Otis controller
an otis controller would be a lot quieter than the westinghouse 3 position controllers in the r9's...
some of the branford people told me that they have a trolley with an otis type controller...
when it comes to dealing with some people here... remember the old bit of elevator operator wisdom:
it's not the ups and downs that get to you, it's the jerks in between
The service cars have one that looks more like a subway car controller.
i bet in the front car the controller is brass and kept polished...
what kind of call boards do they have?? lights for each floor or numbers that drop down when the floor is pushed?
in office buildings or department stores with manual elevators, i liked to watch the main board in the lobby that showed where each elevator is... the elevator bank in macy's 34th in the 7th ave building has a board like that...
between working the door and the front elevators, you must see and hear a lot of things... to some people you may be invisible... i've been told that when you're working the door, people will tell you their problems like you're a psychiatrist or bartender... or sometimes expect you to listen to their crap because it's your job...
Nah, neither service car has that. Crazy thing is the controllers must be slid almost all the way to the end for the slow speed, and a little further for full speed.
i bet in the front car the controller is brass and kept polished...
All 3 cars with handles are kept polished (the 2 main lobby cars have long been switched over to button operation). But the 'party car' has nice wood paneling and carpet. The Service cars have metal walls that we paint black (with gold trim!) and black tile floors. In the summer, when we have major construction, cardboard is placed on the floors, and halfway up the walls.
what kind of call boards do they have?? lights for each floor or numbers that drop down when the floor is pushed?
We have 3 seperate systems:
The button elevators have buttons that light up when you push them, and lights next to each button if someone has called you from that floor. To go to a floor, you have to hold the 'door close' button until the door is fully closed. One elevator also has a side door. The service elevators have 2 rows of #'s next to lights, for each floor. The 'party car' has a box. There are 4 rows of Numbers, but they really aren't visible. When someone calls you from, say, 7, a piece of white paper will drop behind the #7, and you'll see that what looked like a complete black square actually has a clear # sitting in it.
Service and Party cars have MANUAL doors.
to some people you may be invisible...
Just about all of them actually.
One question... What is a "party car"?... I would guess it's not a car reserved for tenants who enjoy partying while riding the elevator...Does the communist party have a whole floor of apartments in the building??...Or is it reserved for little children's birthday parties, where they get to run the elevator??
I would guess you have to act invisible at times... If a tenant came in drunk, I suppose it wouldn't be a good idea for you to say the next morning "That was quite a load you had on last night... I was really surprised that you were able to open your apartment door"
On one side of the building, we have an extra elevator. It's much larger than any other elev. We only use it if the tennants have major parties (so we can take more people up/down at once) or if the regular elev breaks. These computerized pieces of crap breakdown at unbelievable rates.
If a tenant came in drunk, I suppose it wouldn't be a good idea for you to say the next morning "That was quite a load you had on last night... I was really surprised that you were able to open your apartment door"
Well, it's a tradeoff. We've been caught a few times sleeping, so, they don't tell, I don't.
I also remember an office building in downtown South Bend whose manual elevators had no internal gates. You'd see the doors at each floor plainly as it went up or down.
Then there were the manual express elevators at Macy's...
Is this an example of your knowledge and experience?
I'm going to assume that you are young and maybe a little quick to act like you know everything.
I just rode in an attended elevator today, in NYC.
Do you play macho head games with the guests of the tenants?
...sometimes, I amaze myself.
Ya know something, dude? I'm finally hip to you. I can see from where you're coming from. It ain't a nice place. You're just a weak minded wannabe. You got that? Here's you:
"Ohhhh pweeeeze, like me! Like me!!!!!! Look, see how I jump to your p.o.v., `cause it gives me a chance to look like (what I consider, anyway) one of the cool guys!! (Even though, in my heart, I know I'm a creepy sort of fellow). Pweeeze, I'm doing what what you are...LIKE ME!!!!"
Pathetic.
The next time you get one of those weasely impulses, that is, to eagerly show the "cool guys" how much you're cool too, just follow the wisdom of Homer.
"Shut your pie hole."
(I despise "Sympathy Junkies".)
Slowly I turn.......
Nope, neither. I'd rather read about trains. The internet is a vast landscape of an almost infinite variety of visual and textual material. Subtalk is one of the better "defined" spaces. To clutter it with some type of unrelated o.t. trite story line is a waste. I don't think Subtalk is a proper venue for...uh, what you posted. This comment is something you call disrespecting? I stated my objection with the qualifier "...if not, what's the point?". So it wasn't just a mean spirited posting. Don't whine about it.
This project is still very possible to do. If Larry Reuter wants to do it, he has to:
1) Come to an agreement with LIRR about how to get it done, so LIRR then endorses the resultingproposal; or persuade his bosses at MTA to overrule the LIRR management and approve the project.
2) Make sure the proposal covers FRA issues about track separation.
3) Find financing and get it into the Capital Plan.
NIMBY is not likely to be an issue here, but this plan would have to compete against other priorities.
It costs MTA nothing to keep the proposal on a shelf, ready to be dusted off when $$$ and opportunity come along.
So you're learning a lot about keeping people happy, about the world, and about teamwork.
That's a cool combination. I wish you well and the best of luck for the future. Keep your grades up and make something special of yourself.
Don't worry young man. I give advice once. Take it or don't take it. You can enjoy subtalk or you can fight against someone who doesn't even post here any more. Your way just sounds like a great waste of energy, especially with your busy schedule
This is Subtalk. People play games with each other all the time, busting chops and what not. Just understand it and grow a thicker skin - and don't take these exchanges so damn seriously.
The ONLY thing I didn't appreciate about Train Dude was that he professed racial and religious prejudice, and he once solicited my participation in activities that would fall into that category.
Hypocrite of the highest order.
I don't 'grow thick skin' for bigotry.
What did he try to solicit you for?
I was reading something else and talking on the phone.
Sorry - you are correct. Many apologies.
I've tried to stay out of this, even though I had problems with Train Dude. I was also troubled by how little other people were bothered by some of what went on.
I am particularly bored now reading Tee Ray's repeated advice to J Trainloco "to get over it." If Tee Ray wasn't active here when Train Dude was around, then he should "stay out of it" and let this issue be.
Sorry - you are correct. Many apologies.
Accidentally posted to Teeray...
Both true, but unrelated.
No one knows for sure why Train Dude stopped posting.
But it is closed-minded and silly to say that this would be the only solution to the problem of recovery, just as it is brainless and moronic to try to condemn the entire site as a memorial.
And whatever takes their place, which was subject to a lot of public input, "will really belong there" too. Get my point?
Still, if you feel that way, write to them and say so. And to the Governor, and to the PA and to your elected officials.
Guy de Maupassant.
So get involved and do it. I couldn't care less whether you agree with me, or not, or whatever. I think you're a hell of a bright guy whether or not I like certain posts, and your opinion should not be confined to only Subtalk.
So do it. The politicians need to hear from you. And Peter Rosa discouraging you from doing it is all the more reason TO do it.
So are you going to get involved, or do I have to annoy you with more duplicate Destination Freedom posts? :0)
Because you are a frequent visitor, and you spend $$ when you visit - and that is exactly what you say in your letter. If you were running a business, you might say "I'd be inclined to open an office in your neck of the woods if you were to (fill in the issue)."
When I write in on an issue, I write to the following (and I make sure they know who's on the list by cc'ing):
1) My representative (assembly-person etc.)
2) My senator(s)
3) The chair of the relevant committee
4) The agency that I want to perform the action, or whose intended action I support
5) If I am out of district, I write to my rep (esp. if I live close to the affected district) and to the rep in whose district it is. For example, I can write to a legislator in Kansas City, Kansas, about an issue because he/she knows that I live less than a mile from his state/city boundary, and my reppresentative will probably be calling him about it anyway. It affects their relationship.
It is convenient if your representative is on a relevant committee (appropriations, transportation etc.) because his/her vote will count, whether or not the money is spent in your district.
I've gotten ideas adopted when I didn't live in the district affected, in part because the stuff I sent was credible on its face, and in part because the people I write to are familiar with me and know me well through my correspondence over the years. I recently wrote a letter to MTA about TransitChek and refundable MetroCards, and got a quick and informative reply. On two separate occasions, I called two different departments at MTA and my phone calls were returned and I received a prompt email with exactly the information I wanted - and they know I now live in KC.
I'm sure you could establish a credible relationship with MTA (Maryland) through your interest, correspondence, going to hearings etc. and over time, you would find them receptive to you. You won't get everything you want, but that's OK.
I think Baltimore just got a very good transit advocate - but you'll have to take action to show them. Come on, do it!
So do I. The question is, what is your success rate in getting them to do what you want?
:0)
Which basically is what's been happening :(
That includes your whining, by the way. :0)
There isn't even a coherent finalized plan, just proposals that keep changing. And Pataki recently let slip that the reconstruction project may not be completed until 2015. That's incompetence, plain and simple.
He can do whatever subset of the above he has time for. And if he has time to whine on Subtalk and calll everyone incompetent, he has time to do something constructive too.
Maybe that's the problem. You know so little about NY that my connection with you on this website is draining my brain of knowledge...
That's like draining water from a desert.
So let R.I.B. play, that's a nice fellow.
Ya got me wrong. I wasn't referring to American Pig! If you re-read the thread you will know who I'm posting about.
Not American Pig!!
I forgot to post something when I said it: :0)
It did get your danfder up though, didn't it?
...but yeah, that guy is just a lump. Again, the "other" guy. Not you know who.
I, for one, like a lot of the stuff you post. I'm glad you're part of Subtalk.
Surely you mean this as a rhetorical question.
I it's any consolation, Afghanistan lost its sovereignty to a few handfuls of US Special Forces in just a matter of a few weeks, and 3rd Armored Division smashed Iraq's Army in barely two weeks. I met the commanding general of 3rd Armored a few weeks ago at a conference in the KC area, and took the opportunity to congratulate him personally.
Big ducking feal. Does that get the World Trade Center rebuilt? Does that end rampant unemployment in New York?
Entropy
Taken this evening, after the MOD trip.
The MTA concepts for the Fulton Street transit hub seem to use the crossunder as part of an underground connection with the Fulton Street 4/5 station, so I guess they'd have to make it part of the fare paid zone then.
Oh, the close call thing. As I was yucking it up on the excursion train, a gas leak at my apartment forced a quick evacuation of my building. Keyspan has cut off our gas until our landlord fixes the leak, so I'm now sitting in a cold house with the undesirable prospect of a cold shower later this evening.
In the end, I divided my rent by 31, and withheld that ammount for every day without heat, but paid the rest, on time and in full.
He never bugged me for the missed money, and I never bugged him about my deposit when I found another place before my full lease was up.
Elias
We converted from gas back to COAL! Saves us $200/day in heating costs.
But the boilers cannot run if the electricity goes out.
Elias
Regards,
Jimmy :)
Pizza tonight, Chinese tomorrow if we have no gas by 6 PM.
Going towards Jamaica Center, we switched to the express track east of Myrtle Ave, where we had to hit 50 MPH going thru Gates & Halsey.
wayne
wayne
IT WAS LIKE HEAVEN
More like IS.
"I swear that there's no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell"
No, that's just the "arnines" doing what they do best !
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
I believe all three were at 207th St shops as of late. I heard that although the new workers have never seen an R-1,4 or &7A in that shop, some supervision types who had prior experience showed them the ropes.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spa? Do the cars get hot stone massages and aromatherapy wraps?
wayne
Put it this way. As fast as we were going. If we went express the other way, multiply that by 2. If we got direct lineup into Myrtle middle, multiply that by 2 and a half.
wayne
Darn killjoys.
I suppose it's possible that they were two different trains, but I doubt it.
wayne
That's what I was afraid of. I'm going to sit in a corner for a few minutes and sulk.
Chuck Greene
I actually had a dream last night in which I was a conductor on the R-1/9s! Moved the guard chains out of the way (although in my dream they were springs), assumed the position, worked the triggers and caps, stayed up for three car lengths, climbed down and put the guard chain back. Over and over until I woke up.
Chuck Greene
(And a special round of applause goes to the HEET for finally accepting my MetroCard, after many a swipe.)
Seriously, its the steelwork for a planned "flying express" track over the Fulton Street section of the Jamaica el, which has island platforms. The steelwork never made it past the beginning of the platform at Alabama.
Heh, I think it was last used to send the R160's to the afformentioned locations.
One of these days I'll have to do a MOD trip...
wayne
-Robert King
Chuck Greene
(Notice the name change, BTW.)
As a side trivia note, the MOD R-1/9 train was actually operating at some point on that small piece of tunnel on DA1/DA2 trackage between Briarwood/Van Wyck and west of the crossover at Jamaica-Van Wyck that was originally built by the old Board of Transportation in the 1930's for a provision into a proposed Jamaica Avenue terminal station that did not materialize itself in the IND's beginning. I remember seeing such a station listed on an vintage 1931 subway map issued by the Franklin Savings Bank that showed only all the future stations of the "New Eighth Avenue Subway".
-William A. Padron
["Jamaica-Parsons Blvd."]
I didn't think it was possible...
(I Am Not Making This Up!)
The car I was in had no working emergency lights.
He's taking some great shots. I love his photo of the R142 consist going into the tunnel on the West Side IRT line in Harlem.
Let's see some more of yours, in the same class as your excellent eclipse photo. Leave the farting about number of posts to somebody else.
IINM, this is my first off-topic post of the evening, and I'll try to make it my last.
Fine, screw it, I'm going to post all of my photos in indivudual posts too. I'm takin it up a notch!!!
Cool, bring them on!
Walks away and mutters under breath, "Oh Phuck, it figures I'd get involved with this when I'm stuck on dial-up for the evening".
Dewd ... really ... why are you letting this GET to you? Tell ya what. I'll provide a form for you to hand to others who offend, it can be used as often as necessary, feel free to hand 'em out ... But fer krimminy's sake, don't let other people GET to ya ...
Bill "Newkirk"
Sir Choo Choo told me who you were as soon as you left. We'll have to actually meet next time.
I was also hoping to meet the Rock. Oh well. Next time I'll remember my nametag -- and so will the rest of you. (And that's an order!)
You may have seen me. I was the heavy set brother, with a blue jacket, jeans, blue Eddie Bauer hat, glasses, green napsack and a beard. In fact, I met ChooChoo at Columbus Circle. I pretty much was with Jailhouse Doc and spent a few minutes with Chris R27/30 and R32/38. Maybe you were one of the people who caught me dosing off-I was on some serous pain meds due to a toothache.
See you on the next fantrip. Hey, keep in touch by email.
Koi
Great trip!!!
one photo
(No, silly, not that one!)
The WillyB one at Marcy, is a masterpiece, and the Alabama one is also very cool.
I'm on dial-up right now, so I'm still getting to some of the others....well worth it though.
I am also sort of depressed that they are removing the tile casings at 116th. However, the fact that they only went up to the numbers may mean the cool 1930's numbers may remain. Can you tell what they are doing - doing a Spring Street (total removal), a Canal Street (newely tiled, but tiled numbers replaced with metal signs), or maybe new tiles while preserving the old number tiles?
And that's not the OTHER Broadway. That's the Broadway of my handle!
-Stef
Why was this G/O in effect?
The south segment used a mixed fleet of R-142's assigned to the 2 and R-62A's assigned to the 1/9, and apparently even a set of R-62's assigned to the 3.
No interesting announcements or signage, since there's no program for the 2 to 137th, and the cars with the old program (which make up the entire 2 fleet) don't have programs for anything but the standard 2 and 5. The southbound train I rode from 116th to 59th was signed as a typical southbound train, with manual announcements as far as 96th, where the automated announcements kicked in (announcing all local stops, but still claiming to be a "Brooklyn-bound 2 express train," as happens whenever the 2 runs local). The northbound train I rode from Park Place to 86th was having trouble with the announcements: it was signed TO FLATBUSH AV outside and LAST STOP inside, and all announcements were manual (and practically inaudible, so everyone was surprised when we stopped at Franklin, and I'm sure there was even greater confusion at 103rd).
There seemed to be some sort of track work on the southbound track around 134th (just outside the portal), which might explain things. If so, bad timing.
The Van Courtlandt Madman
VC Madman
The new third track at the existing Broadway station is now tied into the current s/b track. Switches have been installed and overhead catenary is in place. The existing boarding area at Broadway is being lengthened to the north, presumably to accommodate four-car trains. The existing ADA ramp at the north end is blocked off and the concrete rampway chipped out. They may extend the ramp northwards. The west edge of the new boarding area has an ADA strip while the east edge, the one facing the existing s/b track, is not complete. My guess is that s/b trains may be routed to the new track, perhaps even permanently, while the existing s/b track will be embedded in concrete and the ADA strip put in.
Girders for the Yale Ave. and Dry Creek Road light rail bridges are now in place. The Orchard Road station is taking shape nicely and the canopies are complete.
A published article in The Rocky Mountain News states that the FasTracks project will be stretched to 12 years instead of ten, and by doing so, proposed light rail lines would be built all the way to their original terminals. Some lines were truncated because of reduced funding.
P.S. - If you don't like the way I post my trip photos, stay off the interweb.
www.railfanwindow.com
www.railfanwindow.com
I was thinking about getting off at Crescent... I should've... :(
www.railfanwindow.com
this station is cool with an "Arnine" set in it
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
www.railfanwindow.com
In my case, if I were on that fan trip, I'd have several hundred dollars worth of equipment, I'd be using a tripod, I'd spend a good moment framing the shot and determining a range of exposures to shoot and then bracket the shot instead of taking one picture, which immediately increases the amount of Kodachrome 64 and K14 processing I have to buy. I do all this because I care very much about the quality of the pictures I take and the results are in the slide filing boxes.
That said, if people were being jerks at the photostop and ruining pictures, I'd be yelling and swearing myself and if not, very tempted to because I don't have much patience for dealing with outright inconsiderate foamers which are the cause of a lot of wasted effort, expense and time. It is really annoying when you've done everything to take a good picture except you can't because there's some jerk standing in front of the photo line doing nothing except looking at the train.
Should I tell the story about the PCC fan trip where almost everybody on the streetcar was just about ready to lynch one foamer who spent the entire day ordering everybody around and ruining everyone else's pictures because he must have had something like a 20mm lens and was standing about two feet away from the streetcar to take his pictures?
-Robert King
The photo stop in question was at Jamaica-Van Wyck on the E, IIRC. I was on the mezzanine taking photos from above. The train sounded two whistles (the "time to go" signal), so I ran downstairs and hopped onto the train. En route, I was informed by one photographer that the platform was closed(!) and that I had no business walking from the staircase to the train.
In general, I'm as polite as I can be to my fellow photographers. I do my best not to block anyone's shots, but I'm not going to miss the train because one photographer isn't ready when the whistle blows. We were on revenue trackage, there was an E train behind us, and our train was about to leave.
Unlike some other photographers, I don't hog a prime shooting location for the entire photo stop. I take my pictures and move out of the way for the dozens of others who would like a chance.
This reminded me of an earlier trip. We were stopped for photos at Flatbush and I wanted to get pictures of both ends of the train. As I was walking down the platform from one end to the other, I encountered a photographer who had positioned his tripod against the platform wall. I couldn't walk behind the camera, since there was a wall there, so I walked in front of it, and the curses started flying.
One last reminder. Technically, tripod photography isn't allowed on the subway. The rule is informally waived on fantrips, but it would be nice if those who violate it would show at least a modicum of respect for the rest of us. Imagine the chaos if everyone on the fantrip had tripods!
You weren't the only one, brah. The incident seems to repeat itself at every photo stop after the whistle blows.
You move out of the way to more obscure locations where you get great shots that the rest of us schlubs miss.
Koi
You'd harldy know that that thing was a SUBWAY TRAIN, and that when first built IND cars NEVER went outdoors!
(Well ok, yards...)
Elias
Oh yeah? Well:
:-)
Roosters are also black, they're also white, they're also spotted. Depends on the breeds. They come in all colors.
Oh, and so do the hens.
Heh, unless they are Rhode Island Reds, then they are always brown, with brown eggs too. : )
Seriously though, Metropolitan seems like a zoo. Peacocks, Pheasants, cats, rats, chickens. Open the Middle Village Zoo there.
Heh, unless they are Rhode Island Reds, then they are always brown, with brown eggs too. : )
Seriously though, Metropolitan seems like a zoo. Peacocks, Pheasants, cats, rats, chickens. Open the Middle Village Zoo there.
Koi
wayne
wayne
Eeeewwwww!
wayne
Oh btw, I checked my printout of one of your posts on 1277 and 9/11/73, and you did in fact type HUUUUUURRRKKKK with an R.
Regards,
Foghorn Leghorn Esq.
The real Rhode Island Red(Bird)
;)
With Brian Weinberg:
Seriously, I love the quality of your pictures, some nice skills you got there. And I like the trainset guide on your website.
The lone R-33WF on the retirement trip on November 3 was 9309 which had just had been on the property for just over 40 years and one month. Not a bad record for the last R-33.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The R-26 was first. It was the first of the GOH'ed cars known as the Redbirds.
1959-1960
There are still R-26's on TA property at the Canarsie Yard. They have "Air Conditioning." ;)
1959-1960
There are still R-26's on TA property at the Canarsie Yard. They have "Air Conditioning." ;)
Bomb: I get your point . I liked the R-26s and R-28's but when they were delivered they came in in that awful drab olive green which really clashed with the coral pink seats.
The R-26's and R-28's only became known as Redbirds after they went through the General Overhaul. I like to call them the adopted Redbirds.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
So why are old trains referred to as "arnines", which is almost certainly a reference to the R-9? Why not arones, or artoos, or arthres, or arfors? or artwantiesixes, for that matter?
Dunno. The only public transit that I recall seeing in the Star Wars movies was a Coruscant "skybus" that ferried the dockworkers to freight spaceports. This was only shown because the main characters were trying to escape detection by pretending to be paupers or cargo!
Regards,
Jimmy
I notice that there are other posters who do the same.
I do wonder if, in view of their age and dignity, it should be 'Arnines' with a capital 'A'.
They were fun to operate though - kept your hands busy. And your mind. They weren't so great to just ride, (though even there they presented their own unique treats to many) but they were wonderful to run.
The R-16's were delivered in olive drab, not red. The R-17's were delivered in maroon.
Bill "Newkirk"
Valid point, but the R16s were the first cars of the redbird style design.
You mean the current redbird red, silver roof and black trim ?
The R-16's are the BMT/IND cars. The R-17's are the IRT ones. The only R-16 painted in redbird red is the one at what once was PS 248 in Brooklyn.
Bill "Newkirk"
While 6688 may not be a REDBIRD in your eyes at least it was preserved compared to what's sitting in the water at the present time. Wanna save the Redbirds? Go out and spend some money, which you won't do. All talk makes Jack a dull boy.
-Stef
How about 7770-1 at Canarsie? Or are those not Redbirds either?
IMHO 6688 doesn't count as a Redbird because it never went through GOH. My stance is that if people want to call it a Redbird, they're free to do so. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion.
Also, wasn't it standard practice at one time for an R-33 single to serve as lead motor at the Flushing end of 7 trains? I've seen photos that seem to suggest this.
-William A. Padron
["Willets Pt Shea Stdm"]
We actually did go on the Swiss Sky Ride during our July 1965 visit. IIRC it ran between the Avenue of the Americas and Avenue of Africa.
During the 1964-65 New York World's Fair five of the R-36 Bluebirds, (Yes they were Bluebirds then) were named for states usually with some ceremong with the governor or other state officials. The named cars were:
9440 "Rhode Island"
9744 "State of Missouri"
9748 "Commonwealth of Massachusetts"
9762 "State of Vermont"
9766 "State of Kansas".
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chris: Thats one of the great things about being a New Yorker. Every single one of those 6000 subways cars are named for New York. They all carry that New York City Transit logo. The good folks in Iowa can only dream of a traction empire like this.
Glad to hear that you enjoyed the fantrip. Hope the family is okay after the gas attack.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Car #9765 - President's Youth Corps
All American J Train:
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Z--
In addition to daily preventive maintenance (under traffic), they respond to signal malfunctions, and if necessary move the trains by hand flagging until the situation can be repaired.
Signal heads, line relays, track circuits, train stops, switch machines, and interlocking machines are all the responsibility of Maintainers, and they are trained extensively on these devices because they directly affect the safety of the riding public.
If you wouldn't like being on the tracks for 12 hours in the dark figuring out a trouble on a 1200 foot long circuit passing through 20 locations/devices, with RTO screaming at you on the radio to move trains, then it might not the the optimal job.
Thanks to LARRYR33 for the heads-up about the show !
R-1 100 Black and White Photo at Essex Street
Overhead look of R-1 100 at Jamaica Van Wyck
A Pic of 1575 Looking "South at Marcy Avenue"
E Signed Train (R-1 100) at Jamaica Van Wyck
E Signed Train (R-1 100) at Roosevelt Island
Color Photo of the Entire Excursion Train
Black and White Photo of the Entire Excursion Train
The #1 Photo of the Day (You'll See Why)
J Train Entering Myrtle Avenue
Black and White Photo of 1575 at Cypress Hill
1575 Entering 104 Street
1575 at Essex Street (Black and White)
1575 at Marcy Avenue Looking "South"
K Signed Train coming in Nicely into "A Secret Location"
R-7 1575 Passing the Trees at "A Secret Location"
Sun Reflecting Nicely off the R-143
An R-143 approaching Fresh Pond Road
Old Fashion Photo of R-1 100 approaching 121 Street
A look at R-1 100 at Essex Street
R-1 100 Exiting Myrtle Avenue
A Look at R-1 100 to the North
M Exiting Myrtle Avenue
Robert
www,forgotten-ny.com
So yes, you could probably run to the southern tip of mainland Florida, or to Moosonee on James Bay (where you can't get to even in your Hummer) or you could even run the Speonk Zephyr to Oakland, California. ("the first four cars will not platform at Death Valley for today.") :)
"Ladies and gentlemen, our train will be slightly delayed as we wait for polar bears to clear the tracks."
Brazil uses 1.600 meters
Long retired and scrapped.
Bill "Newkirk"
I hooked them together with the MSTS Activity Editor, which comes with the game.
And maybe Bombardier pulled a Comet 1B on those cars, they ripped out the traction equipment on the 1Bs and called it a rebuild. Maybe they did the same thing to the Redbirds so NJT could fill some sort of rolling stock shortage.
They will use them at the SEAcaucus Transfer! : )
I know earlier I said NJT was running these, but maybe MARC or VRE (who are both very good at using other railroad's junk [read the BBD coaches from Sounder that VRE has slapped it's ugly ass logo all over!]) managed to talk NJT into loaning a few ALP44s or 46s to them once Amtrak got their E60CHs back. Since MARC and VRE don't sit as high on the totem pole, they got ALP44s, instead of the new ALP46s. They needed cars to go along with these locomotives, and also now needed cars to fill in for the Sounder cars that ST was finally going to use. The solution was at 207th yard, the bodies of the Redbirds were taken out and equipped with good seats, better trucks, HEP power, and pop-out sills for high platforms. All the traction equipment was already gone, so they were actually effective loco-hauled coaches. Right now they're operating under an FRA waiver until both VRE and MARC can get some more BBD or Kawa Bilevels, with VRE using a Mafersa cab car on the far end (it's too small to see in the pic) just to keep the FRA from having a collective heart attack. MARC runs theirs with the ALP44s (as you can see from the photo, all are 1989-vintage) they got, running the Bidirectional locomotive around the trainset at the terminals. VRE uses their GP39PHs with them in push pull service, in place of the Sounder set. Both transit agencies have plans to continue the redbirds trip to the sea once they're finished with them, that is unless some other commuter agency wants them...
[/story]
You want an R36 to have both the AC and a diesel engine??? It was my understanding that the frame was already pretty much maxed out by the weight of the air conditioner, you'd likely have to surrender the AC and some of the electric traction gear for the diesels. I'm sure the passengers would love to ride around in a hot, stinky, noisy car for somewhere around an hour.
And 3rd rail just sucks ass, especially with commuter operations. The transmission loss inheirent in a 3rd rail system isn't so bad when you only have a few miles in a subway over which to electrify, and in which close clearances prohibit the use of higher voltages to allow catenary. But in a commuter railroad, where those are largely non-issues, to use 3rd rail where there could easily be a 12.5 or 25kv cat is absolutely mind bogglingly stupid. AC Catenary allows much longer distances to be covered with a smaller number of substations, it delivers much more power, much more efficiently, and catenary allows for much higher operating speeds than a third rail installation could ever allow for. I'm still very confused as to why LIRR bothers running 3rd rail, or even how that 3rd rail survived the AC electrification of the Pennsy NEC, I'm willing to bet that it had to do with the profitablity, or lack therof, of the LIRR's commuter operations in the post-war period. However, it makes a tremendous amount of sense to have catenary on the LIRR, they've already got it into the main terminal, Penn Station, and if Flatbush and GCT cannot handle cat due to poor clearances (goddamn those engineers), then screw it, run dual mode equipment that'll switch when it reaches that branch. By all rights the Ronk electrification should have been 25kv AC cat at 60Hz, but sadly LIAR and the MTA aren't exactly the most far-looking organizations.
On the way back, I noticed a large construction site maybe a couple blocks north of the Queensboro Plaza station. In the middle of this site was a huge hole in the ground... It actually looked almost like some sort of cut-and-cover tunnel under construction.
Anybody know what that's about? Inquiring minds want to know.
In other news, I've been giving some thought to actually moving to New York City. I've been unemployed since June, and the job market for architects here in Philly really sucks. Actually, it pretty much sucks everywhere right now, but NYC at least has a much larger pool of prospective employers. I've recently begun sending my resume to architecture firms in NYC. Time will tell if I actually land a job there or not, and that would determine my next step regarding actually moving there.
Assuming I actually got a job in NYC, I was originally considering living here in Philly and commuting, since I'm still a part-time student at Drexel... But then, I'd be spending almost $500 a month on transit, and as much as I love trains, five hours a day on NJT/SEPTA isn't my idea of fun.
But then a little light bulb goes off in my head.... If I got a job in NYC, it would actually make more sense to live in NYC and commute to Philly for school, since my classes are only two evenings a week. "Hmmm...." Nothing against Philly, but NYC is where I'd much rather be anyway. (Although I'd need to find somewhere in NYC -- anywhere -- where I could get a good Philly cheesteak.)
Time will tell if anything comes of this crazy idea or not, but I figure it's at least worth a shot.
And on a totally unrelated topic, does anybody know where I can get a half-decent steak (a real steak, not a cheesteak) on the Upper West Side / Morningside Heights area, without spending too much money? I ended up getting a steak for dinner at the West End at 114th and Broadway (they actually have good burgers there), and while it wasn't bad, I suspect I could have done better elsewhere.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
A couple of blocks north of Queensborough Plaza is 41 Av, where the 63rd Street line runs. But that, along with the LIRR tunnel underneath it, was completed in 2001. Perhaps this is an access site to get equipment into the LIRR tunnel, associated with the TBM which is assigned to dig its way to Grand Central. ??
As to your work situation, I'm sorry Philly didn't work out. But there should be a fair amount of opportunity for you in NY. Are you qualified to join firms designing any of the buildings at WTC? How about the planned conference center building at Jamaica Station?
Can you do transit-related design work? Ask the TA for a list of the firms it does business with and send them a resume.
Good luck to you.
David, my impression is it's still a bit cold in the NYC market, but some of the people we laid off found work quite quickly in suburban Connecticut (and as you may know my firm is actually based in WI). However, these other CT firms are the kind of people who make their draftsmen clock in and out (I can't get used to the conservatism of NY architects).
It was my understanding that the ESA tracks will dive into tunnels within Sunnyside Yard. There is no elevated portion to this scheme.
I don't have access to my EIS document right now. If I am wrong, let me know.
Why not try New York City Transit ? If you land a job there, you can combine your hobby with your career.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know much about Philadelphia, but New York suffers from catastrophic unemployment in just about every field. You really should consider looking for work in the Sunbelt.
Very true, there are some places in the Sunbelt which have been experiencing relatively hard times. Cities in the Southeast with large textile industries are being hit by foreign competition. The slumping aerospace industry has taken a toll in Seattle and Wichita. In a decades-long trend, some smaller communities in the South are losing jobs and population to the cities. But these are exceptions to the rule. The Sunbelt is full of dynamic, future-oriented places where prosperity brightens peoples' lives and unemployment is something you read about in history books. Places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Las Vegas, and many others.
And then you have New York, where people whine about the "good old days" while waiting for their unemployment checks, and the only businesses which do well are the moving-van operators (thanks to their outbound runs).
Welcome to the Republican party, Peter. You'd make a good speechwriter at next year's convention right here in NYC.
New York's tax-and-spend culture is so ingrained I seriously doubt whether Republican officeholders could do any better than Democrats.
BTW, I was invited to be a guest at Arnold's inauguration ceremonies. I fly out Sunday and am looking forward to being in the audience when the Terminator is sworn in. I never worked so hard for a candidate as I did for Arnold.
Um, I think it's a while since you retired from teaching. Or do you mean that spending will be king?
It's fine and dandy that New York still attracts immigrants, but there's evidence that many of them will move on to other parts of the United States before long. In other words, the "white flight" out of New York is also a black, brown and yellow flight.
I'm sure many immigrants who leave the city go no further than the suburbs. Indeed there are quite a few out where I am in Suffolk. The Sunbelt still must be getting most of them, however, thanks to better job opportunities.
As to your other point, the rapid increase in real estate prices in the New York area is attributable in large part to limited supply. There isn't enough land to build the sort of vast subdivisions you'll see throughout the Sunbelt. This constraint on supply can boost prices even in the face of mediocre demand.
This would make sense, except that space or not, not a single city in the United States has a greater population than that of New York. So there clearly isn't "mediocre demand," but I do see a mediocre post.
Who's Going Where (Sidebar)
That article is totally irrelevant to the dynamics of New York. New York has for nearly 350 years had a steady outflow to other colonies/states while it also had a steady inflow from outside North America.
Accepting that status quo is a form of defeatism. While it would be difficult for New York to have a net inflow from other states, given high population density in the downstate region, it wouldn't be impossible. Massive downsizing of state and local governments, coupled with huge tax cuts - perhaps a repeal of the corporate and personal income taxes - might do the trick. Even better than a mere shift in migration numbers, New York might then find itself losing the unproductive people that I like to call "revenue consumers," people such as Medicaid recipients, while gaining hardworking, dynamic people. If you demand an endless array of government handouts, go elsewhere; if you want to lead your own life, without the government micromanaging every aspect of your existence and taxing you to the eyeballs, stay in New York and prosper.
Reality check: given New York's sickening tax-and-spend culture, the chances of it becoming Nevada East or Texas North are basically zero. But I can dream.
Interesting to note that the New York-to-Florida migration dwarfs all other flows. Some of those probably represent retirements, while others are people moving in search of better economic opportunities. I don't suppose there's any way to find out how much is in each category.
Or if you want to make money without the government taking most of it.
Huh? Unless you are in the medical field, Florida is not a good place to earn much more than minimum wage.
Three decades ago, maybe, but definitely not anymore. Florida's economy has grown way beyond tourism to encompass most forms of industry and commerce. And not that there's anything wrong with working in tourism; Disney World's 50,000 employees come from all over the nation, indeed the world, and I doubt that the prospect of earning close to the minimum wage would attract very many.
There is also a big return flow, as former middle class very elderly people, having "given" their money to their children, return to New York State to receive generous custodial care financed by someone else.
However, if they don't require custodial care, and don't give their money to their children, they stay in Florida since it has no state inheritance tax either.
There are examples of this kind of movement in every New York family, including my own. Most people refuse to face up to it -- they just assume the "red states" are more "moral" somehow and that's why they are such a good deal. 'Taint so.
All too true. If a recent article in the Times (not available online anymore, alas) is to be believed, New York is really going to be scrod* in the future. It turns out that degenerative diseases usually found in the elderly, things like arthritis, diabetes, kidney failure and even dementia, are cropping up among surprisingly young people in certain New York neighborhoods (not 'hoods like the Upper East Side and Brooklyn Heights, if you catch my drift). People hence are becoming completely disabled in their 30's and 40's. It isn't hard to see what consequences this will have for Medicaid.
* = I'm using the subjunctive tense, not referring to fish.
True but it will help the federal government via Medicare and Social Security. As befits a Republican Administration, the only organizations addressing the future bankruptcy of those two programs (at about the time I hit age 67) are two private companies.
Dunkin Donuts and Crispy Creme.
Don't forget Wal-Mart's greeter program!
: )
Mark
Heh heh, how true!
And let's not forget that these two companies are responsible for a major reduction in NYPD pension payouts.
Donuts aren't as messy as fruit, especially if you avoid the powdered varieties. With fruit, there are peels, stems, seeds etc. that can cause a mess, while donuts are eaten completely.
If I could see (or get into the Census site and explore) the states that export the most people PER CAPITA, and correct BY INCOME, New York might not look so bad. Then get total income stability by cost of living. Florida ain't so hot, period.
My dad keeps trying to convince me to move to Raleigh, NC, which is where they live now. Ugh. I can barely spend a weekend there before I feel the life force beginning to drain from my body. My dad is convinced that just because ugly strip malls and cookie-cutter subdivisons are spreading throughout the area like a cancer, that plenty of local architects must be hiring. Umm, no thanks.
"...and the only businesses which do well are the moving-van operators (thanks to their outbound runs)."
In that case, maybe I'll actually have a better shot at finding an apartment. :-)
Some of my online friends from other parts of the country have asked me, "Why would you want to move to New York?"
I'm tempted to reply, "If you have to ask that question, you probably woulnd't understand my answer."
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Remember, architects get paid whether or not what they are designing gets built.
Very true. I'm actually focusing my search more on the smaller firms. I think I've gotten rather burned-out on the large corporate firms, and small firms offer more opportunities to get involved in all areas of the practice, rather than just spending months at a time cranking out widget details.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But the trains of SEPTA should provide you enough interest, at least until you graduate from college ?
There's a reason why you can order them anywhere inthe world for 50 bucks a bag or two :)
Number of Grand Central Stations: 2 (at least)
Number of Madison Square Gardens: 4
Number of Waldorf-Astorias: 2
Number of Fuller Buildings: 2 (including the one that became famous under the name of the "Flatiron" building)
Manhattan has also had more than one version of the Polo Grounds and, due to the tendency of companies to move around, some company names have graced more than one building, such as the "New York Times".
Thus, it is entirely logical that we name the next set of buildings to go up at the World Trade Center site...World Trade Center!
Ten years from now, people will be calling it "That weed-filled hole in the ground that New York is too incompetent to rebuild."
Should I send you some Depends?
We were lead on the tour by Dr. Mewburn H. Humphrey, a PATH employee whose title is Program Manager of the Downtown Restoration Program. Dr. Humphrey was assigned to the Air Train project on Monday, September 10, 2001. This took him out of his 88th floor office in Tower 1. He truly believes that a miracle saved him from death the next day. In speaking with him, I am positive that if the various political factions arguing over the use of the site ever come to a consensus (and Gov. Pataki is pushing for such a consensus) that Dr. Humphrey and the employees of PATH will get the job done.
The tour took us down into the bathtub to see the new temporary PATH station, scheduled to open Nov. 24. (The tracks/signals/trains are ready to go right now.) The station is completely rebuilt on the pre-9/11 site, with the same track/platform layout as described in the PATH article on nycsubway.org. We entered via the emergency exit stairway in the bathtub and exited via escalator to the main entrance which will be on the west side of Church St. We saw the planned pedestrian tunnel connections to the subway, particularly the A/C/E at Chambers and N/R/W at Cortlandt. Conspicuous by its absence is a connection with the 1/9. That will be part of the final re-building plan.
A PATH tour guide gave a talk prior to our going into the bathtub. The rebuilding effort will probably last 15 years. The buildings will go up based on supply and demand. Unlike the original, there will be no "plaza"; the streets (like Greenwich) will run through. The 1776 tower will be built first in the northwest corner of the site where 6 WTC once stood. No buildings will be built upon the twin tower foot prints. 7 WTC, which lay outside the PA site, is already being re-built. The desire is to make the site a 24/7 area as opposed to a 40 hour/week area.
In summary, I would say everyone enjoyed the tour, and came away with the feeling that there was an uplifting sense of purpose from all the people involved in the project. If the plans are made, the project will be done.
So those transformers they were putting in the ground are figments of our imagination.
"And projecting 15 years for completion, well, that's the most pathetic loser's attitude I can imagine."
I don't know...I think your attitude is worse. I'm not sure who needs the Depends...is it city leaders, or you? Name a couple of concrete things you've done to participate in the WTC recovery/rebuilding effort, or NYC's recovery effort.
And stop whining so damn much.
Another thing is that super high rises are rare in the world; therefore the engineers with that kind of experience are rare as well. It going to be a learning process for the designers and project managers, so project will move slower floor-for-floor than another type of project, like a 600-foot building, where experienced engineers are more available.
I'm very impressed that 7 WTC is already under construction, how tall and how much area is this building?
I actually don't see the necessity of rebuilding the WTC with super-high towers. As you note, building above a certain height may not make particularly good sense from an economic standpoint; I suspect that most of the record-setting skyscrapers going up in Asia are national ego projects more than good business sense. Rebuilding the WTC with tall but not extraordinarily high skyscrapers would be a perfectly good alternative. Unfortunately, all the childish political squabbling/incompetence means that nothing's getting built anytime soon. What a f***ing disgrace.
As far as I know, the new WTC 7 will be in the 50- to 60-floor range.
Of course, nearly all of them are. The newest tallest building in the world, Taipei 101, was completed at a time when the office market there is at a time of high vacancies. Even the Empire State building couldn't give away space after it was built- they had workers going to the vacant floors turning on the lights at night so that they looked occupied.
That took a lot of time. It wasn't until the 1980's that the space was leased.
The ESB and the old WTC both passed. I'm not saying there should be a King Kong remake, just that if there were to be one, the new WTC should be worthy of having King Kong climb it.
Sorry I had to rant, but that's only my opinion of what I think of the "new World Trade Center."
The exact same thing was said about the Golden Gate Bridge and the Eiffel Tower
I loved the Twin Towers. But insisting that only the Twin Towers be put back is as closed minded as insisting that the entire WTC become a cemetary. There was plenty of input into the process, and whatever happens, happens.
:0)
The money goes directly to the March of Dimes.
If not, then everyone involved deserves an extra round of applause (in addition to the one that they deserve in either case).
Is it not enough that the trips run? Now you have to speculate where the money is going to?
8-) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
That was a neat shot into your view finder. I'm glad you liked it.
Looks like everybody had a blast, sorry I couldn't join in.
When you were conductoring on the 9's, was it standard procedure to look behind you to check for red indicaton or did you mainly look up and down the train for any lit white lights? Was it common for the motorman to have indication and the conductor not have it? I noticed that once we were outside, the conductor had to cup his hands around the red light sometimes to see if it was lit. I really enjoyed watching him work the doors.
You could tell from the saddle if you had indication because you'd hear a release and the train would take off as you stepped down. If you closed up and nothing happened, then you had to step down and take a look, play rock'em'sock'em and all. But usually if you had a door that didn't go, good old Noo Yawkahs came to the rescue to let you "spot the car with door trouble."
...
...
...
...
If you saw people trying to pry a door open down the trainline, you KNEW that was the door that hadn't closed. Folks usually stepped back a few inches, and from "da perch" you could see both ends of your train. Good old New Yorkers though, if they spotted "advantage door" would crowd around it, trying to pry it open like rats and garbage cans.
So you'd pop it, close it and maybe the train would take off. If not, then it was a train walk down to that car, shove it, puff of air and the train would FINALLY take off.
No "science" or "software" required. :)
wayne
Do indeed wish I coulda been there. :(
Chuck Greene
Bill Wall could charge $70 for a ticket and those trains would be packed.
It's amazing that someone that absolutely hated the R16's while they were running would have such an affection towards them now. I would be in heaven riding an R16 right now.....
If only those involved in the events next year even knew what they were/are !
I won't mention what you've been doing to get that BMT flag sign, but I think it's illegal in some states!
U? As in Thant? He's dead; I don't think you'll see him there.
It's sitting there and not getting any better, very soon there will be nothing left of it. Maybe the board should de-accession the car and scrap it. One less liability to worry about....
Like you said, it needs the manpower and money, the car may not be fixed in my lifetime. What the heck, the Museum may as well start cutting its losses. Scrap the body and donate parts to 2204 and the 3 Units at CIY.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
Jamaica Center Duplex Ride
Full report to follow later this afternoon.
E
8TH AVE.JAMAICA
PARSONS BLVD
I love the replication of the sign though. ;)
I like the idea of a plaque at each station detailing the history of the station.
Getting City Hall station open for people to visit is an absolute priority. I thought I heard either Peter Kalikow or Larry Reuter say something about City Hall station at the Redbird Farewell ceremony at Willets Point.
Well, in the case of Times Square, it'd be a pretty long one.... and, oh yeah, I'd approve! :)
Publish a coffee table book of subway maps and how they have changed since 1904.
GOOD idea.
Issue a commemorative subway postage stamp.
NICE idea.
Develop educational programs for schools explaining the importance of the subways.
STRANGE idea.
Celebrate by making your station shine. (That's where the mop and pail come into play.)
BAD idea.
Break ground on the Second Ave. subway.
GREAT idea.
Give each station a plaque featuring the station's history.
GREAT idea.
Have the public name subway cars for New York figures, events and places, such as "The Spirit of Jackie Robinson."
WIERD idea.
Open the shuttered City Hall station, a long-hidden gem, as an art museum.
GREAT idea.
Have transit workers wear badges saying the "Subways Are 100 Years Old and I'm Proud of It."
Who the hell comes up with this $#!+?
That's nothing new. I guess that's similar to what they did during the World's Fair on the Flushing Line:
Why is it strange? I find it good to educate young New Yorkers so they can maintain the system in the future.
They already have a bus depot named after Mike.
Great idea.
Anyone have a spare $1 million? That is how much it would cost (at minimum) to do a complete restoration.
Even if someone could ocme up with the money the car would probably not be ready in time.
YES!
...as an art museum.
NO!
Just think of it, hords of people decend on the Garand Central Transit Museum Store and clean it out ... mobs of people spend hours waiting in line to get into the Transit Museum at Court Street ... nah the TA wouldn't be interested in that :-(
Two critics reviewing our train
Broadway Junction heading back to Myrtle
Subtalk Group Photo
: )
Mark
(Before MOD trip, on my way there.) Something #4 Sea Beach Fred hasn't seen in 13 years
some more oogling at Myrtle Ave
When in doubt...
The new at Wyckoff Ave...
...and the old
At Roosevelt Island.
Get out of my way R30, I want that Cypress Hills shot too.
One sad note is that only 17K are riding the system. There is a dropoff of commuters and I'm concerned that these fare inspectors are NOT doing their job. I notice a lot of them are just standing at the station doing nothing. It's really starting to bother me. I'm lucky if I get checked once a week! I will issue a complaint real soon.
I visited the 22nd street station and was pleased to find they are already extending the tracks to 9th street! Incredible.
I like the fact that there are two entrances with plenty of places to put my bicycle. Unfortunately, there are not that many parking spots so the motorists will have to look at the 34th street station. I get the feeling going under the bridge at the 22nd street station that it was once part of a much older railroad.
Not too long ago, I was actually thinking of moving away from Bayonne to North Bergen because it would be closer to Manhattan. Not anymore. The Light Rail changed all that real fast. For only $53.00 dollars a month, I get an unlimited number of rides to Hoboken or New Port Center.
I took a look and couldn't find any sign of such an extension. The tracks end within a couple of car lengths South of the station.
Unfortunately, there are not that many parking spots so the motorists will have to look at the 34th street station.
How big a lot do you want? The lot at 19th Street -- one short block South of the station -- looks like it holds about 200 cars.
You're right about that. It's really sad that NJ Transit has to dedicate so much land for parking lots. Almost 40% of the city of Bayonne is parking space and we really need more housing as shortages are widespread. I really don't care about the parking situation as I won't be using it at all. My bicycle receives free parking and I get to park it within several meters of the light rail.
I just rode on the light rail this morning 11-17-03 and the train was packed by the 3 third stop! (54th street) I really believe they need to add another car to piggy back the light rail during rush hour. Seriously. The cars are standing room only by the 4th stop and ridership is increasing!
I really didn't care to watch it but I'm glad they finally finished it. I was the only soul who took went to the grand opening on bicycle! Unfortunnately, the minute I made for the lightrail to leave, a BURST OF LAUGHTER came from some lightrail workers there. I guess my cycle made them laugh.
Phantoms of the Moscow Opera
I was also presented with an award honoring the fine work that I have done in demoralizing the members of Subtalk with my inanities.
Moscow considers subway kissing ban
Started at Newkirk Ave, and the scaffolding and steel beams from West Germany are being taken down, the station is clear as the sky this Monday morning. Rode to 57/7 with nothing unusual beside the C/R incorrectly announcing the 5 was stopping at Atlantic and the 9 and E trains were available at Times Square. Then I walked from 57/7 a street fair was in full swing early in the morning on 7th Ave. I tried the fastest shortcut to the entrance at 58th st/8th ave, CLOSED. Damm I had to run back to 57th st and enter there, then run underground for one block. I arrived at 10:25 and the whole posse was there at the middle platform. Saw a vinyl record from the pre-historic audio age (lol) at the roadbed. Me, Broadway David and R30 were talking about car #2500 WITH THE TUNA OIL when IT COMES IN IN FRONT OF US. It is now at the C/R position, last week the car was north motor end. After a few more A and D trains, the MOD consist came in, we loaded quickly and off.
At the KK line tube, we saw some trackwork, wondering why is track in a non-revenue tunnel section is being replaced. We got homeball outside Essex and had to sit and wait for a few. The TSS ordered the T/O to do a slow roll into Essex after we had the signal and the lineup, and the T/O asked how slow, it was 5 MPH. First stop was always Essex, if the train passes Marcy, then we always have to stop at Essex and take a J train ahead for use to take photos of our train coming off the Williamsburg Bridge. I rode to Marcy and realized to Chris Riveria a big mistake, you cannot exit Marcy and try the other side because you have to wait 18 minutes to get back in. I missed the shot and tried the card to get back in at the HEET, PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN, PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN, SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE. Broadway Dave, me and Dtrain22 barely got inside in time while Chris is stuck taking a Manhattan bound J back to Essex and catch up with us later. We ran local to Myrtle, switched to express to Broadway Junction and stopped there. Next item was to take next J ahead to either Alabama (my stop), Crescent or Cypress. Then the MOD train will pick up us at these 3 stations. First incident was 3 kids boarded the train at Cypress and were escorted out at Woodhaven, one kids didn't understand English and an interpeter was summoned. We went to Lower Supthin stopped there then into Parsons. Picked up anyone that got off at Supthin then went back to Cypress. The photos were getting intense as the train rounded the Cypress curve and would use the middle relay track to allow us taking a J train ahead for another photo. I had Broadway Junction to myself (almost, one other person was there) and I tried that leaning shot. I also tried to take a photo from the L platform but the wires and other materials would interfere with the picture. The C/R's on both J trains failed to make the correct announcement when they mentioned "transfer to the A, C, and L trains" (The A line G.O. was in effect, no C was running in Brooklyn.) During the time I waited for the train at Broadway Junction, a second incident took place. Someone on the MOD train sneaks into one of the T/O cabs and might have been caught. I only hear the rumor aboput it when I boarded the train after the fact. Went back to Myrtle middle, relayed and went up to Metropolitan, with interim lunch stops at Myrtle, Wyckoff, Fresh Pond and Metropolitan being the last lunch stop. Too bad no KFC around, because a rooster by the Christ the King H.S side of the station greeted us. LOL. I went back to Fresh Pond, took a walk to buy a sandwich at a very nice and immaculate supermarket to eat later on in the evening.
Second half of the trip was more fun as the customers from the Grand Street Shuttle look and gawked in amazement at our train. There was a bottleneck ahead of us at the F (or rerouted E) at 57/6. The train at 57/6 (not us, we were stuck at 34th st when this happened) had to isolate one car and made a battery run, bypassing Lexington/63 only. We rode up the F via 63rd st, stopped at Roosevelt Island for the quickest photo stop you will ever see. Then on to Jamaica Center for the best express run that you will ever experience if you were on the train. Man I loved it, we ROCKED WHEN WE PASSED WOODHAVEN AND 63RD DRIVE. NOT EVEN THE UPHILL AT 67TH STREET WOULD SLOW US DOWN. When we got to Jamaica Center, WE NOTICED IT WAS CHANGED TO JAMAICA CENTER/PARSONS BLVD. No more Parsons/Archer. Third incident at Jamaica/Van Wyck was a knucklehead that was picture taking cursing the F word when someone was in his way. This was the same knucklehead at Euclid Ave on a prior trip cursing at his fellow passengers and otherwise was the only tarnish to a near perfect trip. What made this even more appaling was he cursed when a 6 year old customer was around, waiting with his mother for a regular E train. Some people have no class, you know who I'm talking about. A woman at Jamaica Van-Wyck was running to catch "our" train (the rear sign was E so she thought it was her E train but someone told her otherwise.) We went to Jamaica Yard at sunset and raced again on the express, timers slowed us down and I noticed the Forest Hills bound G train which would be our Subtalkers Robert manning the T/O controls when he saw the train whizzing by. After we looped around Jamaica yard I had my sandwich, being careful not to leave any food particles of any size on our precious museum train. Ended trip at West 4th st and a F train greeted me to say "board me" (j/k) so I and Chris R27/30 boarded F train, I got off at B'way Lafayette and walked outside one block down Broadway to Prince St for and R train to Canal, then Q train home.
Partial list of Subtalkers, As always if you are excluded from this list below, please reply to this post and accept my apologies. Great trip, great fun, great people (except for that one person at Jamaica/Van Wyck I mentioned.)
heypaul- You finally caught up with me, nice to meet you.
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
R30
Broadway Junction
Bill "Newkirk"
ChurchuBob
Transit ChuckGreene
Thru Express
Koi "Public Transit is my Lifeline"
Dtrain22
Chris R27/30
R32/38
Wayne Mr. Slant-R40
Lou From Brooklyn
John "Sparky GG" S.
R33 #9279
NJ Coast Express
Christopher Rivera
Jehuty V2
rpanseshutterbug
BMT Green Hornet
MCI #1979/R62A #1979 ?????
and who else?? NEWKIRK PLAZA DAVID
R1 100
R4 484
R7A 1575
heypaul was there? Dammit, why didn't someone introduce us!!!
It was a great trip.
Chuck Greene
I would have been on this trip but I had prior committments.
til next time
Just like the rules we all hear at the start of these trips (i.e. no sticking your camera, head, or any other body parts out the window), I think we should add, "yell or curse at someone for getting in your way, you're done!" Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
As for the sealed beam headlights, #100 and #484 were never retrofitted for sealed beams many years ago when the others were done. Concerning the marker lights (taillights) mounted underneath the anti-climber, my guess is the original marker lights don't work. Probably need to be rewired or something.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck
GOH = General Overhaul, when the fleet goes through a massive interior and exterior overhaul. The Redbirds were as a result from a GOH. Other cars that went through GOH are R32/32A/32GE, R38, R40S, R40M, R42, R44, and R46.
You can't hear tone of voice on a message board. This post is intended for information and should not be perceived as disrespectful.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The cities are:
London
Moscow
Toronto
Chicago
San Francisco
New York
Paris
Boston
Washington D.C.
Tokyo
Have fun!
I like Atlanta because the cars have a good design and color scheme. Also, the stations are attractive. I love the bare rock of Peachtree Center, plus the way they used rough-hewn lumber forms to make some of the concrete interiors of other stations look like aged gray wood. That adds a lot of warmth to the coldest building material there is. I also love the ease of railfanning during a long layover at Hartsfield thanks to the airport line.
Mark
1. Seoul, which has the third busiest subway in the world (after Moscow and Tokyo).
2. Mexico City, with its 20 million population, has a very big and busy system with eleven lines.
Probably both deserve a place on your list.
Mark
What is the average pay for each of these positions in the nycta?
Needless to say, this is not the way I would spend my labor dollar, but there it is. There is one dollar of benefits cost for every two dollars in wages, and that share is going up.
If it were up to me, employees would have the right to opt for a plan with a later retirement age, and receive a higher pay package to go along with it, so that the total value of compensation was equal.
The years of service requirement would not change, and one would be allowed to leave earlier. For example, if you were working a tough physical job you could still work your 25 years and leave, even at age 45, having qualified for a pension. But the pension would not pay until, say, age 65, so another job would have to be worked until then. Obviously, the amount of the pension would have to be increased for inflation between the time one left the job and the time one retired, so its worth would not diminish.
In addition, employees could be permitted to opt for a 401K type plan, with an employer contribution equal to the projected average required employer contribution under the regular pension plan.
The advantages:
1) For the employee, higher pay in the early years of one's career, when one is strugging to buy a home and raise a family. This helps the public too, since many qualified workers undervalue the pension and thus shun public service.
2) A better deal for mid-career hires, who are raped by the existing system. As the population ages, the government will need to attract these.
3) No more bribing qualified, experienced workers to leave, so they can get rich by collecting both a pension and a pay package somewhere else. Instead, once the required years of service for the regular pension were reached, an equivalent employer contribution could be dumped in a 401K. The longer you'd stay, the better off yoiu'd be.
Finally, public employers should not be allowed to under-fund the pensions when the stock market is up, as in the 1990s, leading to a crisis when the stock market is down -- at the worst possible time. In addition to the benefit enhancement (which, surprise surprse, primarily benefitted those with seniority and those already retired) this is a reason for the mess we are in now.
Increased benefits, through time-served percentage points like in Tier 1, or 401k like you propose, are the key to keeping guys on the job. But either way its going to cost money.
Health care is a huge burden for the MTA and private employers alike. If this country could get health care costs down, through nationalized care or otherwise, then everyone would be better off.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but the only enhancement I can see for Tier I is giving them the right to spit in the rest of our faces before retiring to Florida -- for educational purposes. It might teach some of the less financially inclined people my age what is going to happen to their social security.
As for health care, remember that the government is already paying, directly or indirectly (via public employee health benefits and the exclusion of employer-provided insurance from income) for 70 PERCENT of all third party health care payments in the country. That's 2000 data (it really lags) before all those people lost their health insurance in the recession. And if you exclude non-vital care (dental, chiropracters, etc) it's 80 PERCENT.
Some people are getting more and more goverment funding, directly or indirectly. Others get nothing. As a public employee with health insurance, I'm on the winning side, but I still object. Many of my friends are on the losing side, and who is to say my children will be on the winning side?
There's a bomb in a can.
Transit or private, state or federal.
As long as the Republican Party is hostage to the right wing, there's no chance until 2004, and maybe 2008 :-(
Maybe our friends in the Great White North can give us and idea of how to fund it.
It's gotta be Federal, and unless the funding mechanism isn't like Social Security, it won't get done right.
Scarily, this could become the tax burden to end all tax burdens.
As long as health insurance remains in the Private Sector, the costs are are going to be a burden. Look at the liability insurance crisis as it applies to rail museums and steam engines. Even a well-managed museum is looking at a 2X to 3X premium increase, even for museums that have never had a claim. And once up, they won't go back down.
Humanity in the Balance
BreakPoint with Charles Colson
January 23, 2003
History and 'Lives Not Worth Living'
Following World War II, the Allies put Nazi Germanys surviving leaders on trial for genocide and other war crimes. The chief
medical consultant for the prosecution was an American doctor named Leo Alexander.
In 1949, Alexander summed up what he had learned from his experience at the Nuremberg War Trials. He wrote in the New
England Journal of Medicine that the horrors of the Third Reich were made possible by a single idea: the belief that some
lives are not worth living.
You would think that Alexanders words and the wreckage caused by Nazi barbarism would have driven that lesson home.
Unfortunately, thats not the case.
The Nazis phrase for the kind of lives Alexander wrote about was Lebensunwertes Leben, which means "lives not worth
living." They initially employed the phrase to justify killing the sick and the handicapped. They werent concerned about
individual suffering; their concern was the cost and inconvenience to society of keeping these people alive.
Once they convinced people to subject human life to a cost/benefit analysis with regards to the sick and the handicapped, it
became easier to apply these standards to other groups.
Given this evil history, youd expect that both the idea and the phrase would have been banished from German culture forever.
They havent been.
Nearly three-quarters of all Germans surveyed favor physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia. Even worse, a survey of
German doctors found that 6.4 percent of hospital physicians and 10.5 percent of general practitioners had been present when
a physician euthanized a patient.
To add moral insult to mortal injury, the Nazi phrase is regularly used by German advocates of physician-assisted suicide and
euthanasia.
Whatever lessons Germans have learned from their history apparently did not include a high regard for the sanctity of human
life. And Germans are not alone in this regard. Dutch doctors heroically opposed the Nazis two generations ago. Now, Dutch
doctors murder upwards of 3,500 patients a year.
It would be foolish to think that whats happening in Europe cant happen here. Given its current trajectory, American culture is
well on its way to embracing what Pope John Paul II has called "the culture of death."
Oregon has already legalized physician-assisted suicide. At least a dozen states have considered or are considering similar
measures. While none of them have joined Oregon, it may only be a matter of time. Nearly half of all doctors surveyed favor
legalizing physician-assisted suicide.
So-called "death with dignity" is depicted sympathetically in the media. A generation of Americans, like a generation of
Germans seventy years ago, are being taught that there is such a thing as "a life not worth living." What they are not told is
that, once a culture believes that, theres no reason for a doctor to wait for his patients to request assistance.
Making comparisons to the Nazi era can be inflammatory, but it is only fair to ask: What have we learned? Whatever else we
may have learned, we have failed to understand the most important lesson: There is no such thing as "a life not worth living."
As Leo Alexander would tell you, its the lesson that separates civilization from barbarism.
Maybe our friends in the Great White North can give us and idea of how to fund it.
Chiming in from the Great White North here.
The health system in Canada is essentially funded out of general revenue. Canada can afford this for several reasons. First, health care costs are lower here. This is due to a lack of ambulance chasers, low overhead (only one insurance 'company' to deal with) and the fact that wages are lower here than in the US. Second, the the overall tax burden in Canada, in percentage terms of GDP, is considerably higher than in the US. Canadians basically trade relatively high taxes for a large government services footprint. There's no magic to paying for universal health care. It's just a matter of finding the political will.
As for transplanting Canadian medicare onto the US.... Alabama just demonstrated what happens when a US electorate is given a choice between paying higher taxes and slashing government services. For those of you who haven't heard, let's just say that it'd be no surprise in Alabama to find road potholes large enough to swallow an R-142 whole.
Couple this to the fact that the Republican party is proceeding along an unofficial but very real plan to dismantle the US federal government by removing its funding source ('starving the beast' is what the GOP calls it) and the prospects for universal healthcare are slim to none. In the near term the Republican party will never allow it, and in the medium term, the US federal government will be too bankrupt (literally--read Krugman's columns in the NYT for big picture) to afford to do much of anything.
According to the latest data from The Economist, government spending as a percent of GDP is the same in the U.S. as in Canada. Our lower taxes are entirely accounted for by the difference between your budget surplus and our budget deficit. Canada isn't spending more on health care, education, etc. It is distributing that spending more equally -- those who get more are having to use their OWN money not taxes collected from others, including the poor.
Deep down, I think I'm a Canadian. I'd move there if I was an entreprenuer, but I'm a career public servant. Something tells me Canada has enough of those already.
Hey sorry. But other posters are more intersted in public policy issues as they affect the transit agency than your personal career.
thanks
Sean Hart
I used to hate the trek across Brookyn on the A train. And then having to transfer to the HH at Euclid.
At least the A had those wonderful R10's.....!! I don't know if it was my imagination, or what, but they just didn't seem to push them once the train exited the tunnel and used the elevated structure east of Grant Avenue. Maybe they didn't want to shake the elevated apart!!
However, I had made no plans in any event in stepping onboard the train. But instead, I just simply did my own railfanning in the late afternoon on the rerouted "E" line with R-32's between Manhattan and Jamaica Center via the 63rd Street tube. Most of the time, I was standing in front of the railfan window to look for the train at least running somewhere.
Anyway, at the end of my first trip into Jamaica Center at around 3:30pm, the MOD train did not arrive at the upper level yet. In other words, I was ahead of the fantrip in front of three or four regular road "E" trains. So, back out I went on a Manhattan-bound "E", and when leaving 21st Street-Queensbridge, I had heard on the radio in the T/O's cab that the MOD train was at Roosevelt Island for a photo stop. The transmission heard said there were a few Queens-bound road "E" and "F" trains behind the fantrip train.
Well, yes indeed, I spotted at Roosevelt Island on the Queens-bound track the MOD train with R-1 #100 in the lead with the front roll signs "E 8th Ave." and "Jamaica Parsons Blvd." plus a 100th Anniversary banner on the car exterior side. Now, I am looking out of the RFW from the R-32 "E" I am riding while seeing this, but the MOD train finally departs Roosevelt Island at around 4:00pm.
Okay, now I get off at 57th Street-6th Avenue, and change across the platform for the Jamaica-bound "E" (another R-32) back to Jamaica Center. Still riding in front of the RFW of this consist, I do not see the train again until finally arriving at Jamaica Center...and just in time. The MOD train is ready to leave Jamaica Center, and does so at around 4:45pm.
Meanwhile before reboarding, I was overhearing some interesting comments from some station employees after the MOD train left. They included such things that with all the cameras and tripod seen on the platform, they made a remark that it looked like it was a "Hollywood premiere" or such. However, the biggest notice that these employees remarked about themselves in person seeing the assigned conductor opening the R-1/9 doors with the "triggers" from the outside, as if they have never seen them before.
Now back to my journey...I now board my final Manhattan-bound R-32 "E" for the day, heading towards Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights instead. After I get in front of yet another RFW in this R-32, and with the train traveling along Archer Avenue then entering Queens Boulevard, I hear again in another radio transmission from the T/O's cab that the MOD train is heading into Jamaica Yard.
Okay, it can also mean again that I am going to be ahead of the MOD train, which is probably now circling the yard's loop (or to that effect), before I finally get off at Roosevelt Avenue. Sure enough, at a mere 7 minutes after leaving the regular R-32 "E" with an R-46 "F" behind also, the MOD train comes in with R-7A #1575 signed up "MM" "Metropolitan Avenue" stopping short of the 4-car marker. There, a few passengers got off by one of the side doors that had been keyed to open and close.
I tried to get a quick glance if I had recognized anybody I knew on the MOD train, but it was much of blur to identify anyone. By the way, I belive I had counted about maybe six railfans hogging over the MOD train's front RFW before it left Roosevelt Avenue. To think I rode the regular "E" train's R-32 cars' RFW all by myself, and had room to breathe.
And so, the train finally departs at around 5:15pm from Roosevelt Avenue on its way back to Manhattan via the 63rd Street line. Well, I can say that, even though I was not on the fantrip physically, I was there at least "in spirit", and had now witnessed only for myself a consist of classic R-1/9 cars operating on routes (i.e. Archer Avenue and 63rd Street) that they were there for the very first and historic time.
-William A. Padron
["Can R-10 #3184 Come Out Soon?"]
We did use the yard loop around Jamaica Yard
We used both levels of Jamaica Center AND Supthin/Archer for the first time ever in the almost 15 year existence of these stations.
It was our quickest photo stop at Roosevelt Island.
And a lot of people oohing and aahing the train.
You were there in spirit for all of us.
Besides, I had my own fun riding and railfanning on the R-32's along the rerouted "E" in front of and behind the MOD train, so it was a breeze and ball at that too. There will be times when I do my best subway joyrides on my own with no one else around, and I do perhaps get a different and sometimes better prespective in my railfan experiences.
However, as a trivia note, the very first excursion train to cover both the Archer Avenue levels and 63rd Street line in the same day was the E.R.A.'s "Farewell to the R-10's" fantrip on Sunday, October 29, 1989, when I was definitely inside that train throughout as a paying rider. The consist of eight green R-10's (#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216) covered the same newer extensions as the MOD R-1/9 train would cover fourteen years later, but the connection between 21st Street-Queensbridge and 36th Street had not yet been built and opened at that time though.
But you are right...I was there "in spirit" on the MOD train. Well, at least I can always view the uploaded digital picture images of other railfans from that fantrip to, *ahem*, relive the moments again!
-William A. Padron
[R-10 car #3184...still sitting]
Or does #1575 intimidate you into thinking she's an R-10 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The fare then for boarding the eight-car consist of green R-10's (#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216) was $30, and I was the 4th customer to purchase a ticket in advance by mail. You might also remember that we were on a previous green R-10 fantrip on Sunday, June 8, 1986 with only four cars in the consist (#3136-2966-3101-3013), and that particular train did cover Myrtle Avenue on that run.
And no, the car body of R-7A #1575 in my humble opinion maybe be built and look like an R-10 in someways, it is definitely not the real thing for me...sorry. I am just simply waiting for the day to see in person up close and going inside R-10 #3184, and I am waiting for this to eventually happen for these last nine years since the car's restoration.
-William A. Padron
[What's left? R-10 #3184 & #3189!]
That was the first and last time the R-10's visited both levels and Roosevelt Island. That rarely happens.
BTW - Just breakin' your shoes about not attending, no offense.
Bill "Newkirk"
-William A. Padron
["BB-6th Ave./Coney Island" on the front of #3018]
Earlier in the day, in the East, #1575 put on her own show: a mad dash from Myrtle to Broadway Junction, signed up as "K" (her own original 1968 Eastern sign, with the 1973 modification blacking out one "K" and the "Q" part of the "QJ"). It felt like she was going just under 50MPH, and she was on the express track.
wayne
R1,4,7A...minus field shunting...equals speed demons !
Bill "Newkirk"
(IMG SRC="http://url.com")
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Well... yeah. How else do you expect to display them? You can't store files on the Subtalk web server. You need to use web space of your own.
www.transitgallery.com (coming soon, hopefully)
:-)
<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/rickyrab79/Rabinowitz-miscellaneous-photos-151.jpg">
In a perfect world, yes. But with Geocities, usually no. :)
I think it's something wrong with Richard's HTML coding, or Geocities is overly picky.
Yes, that is the trick to load Geocities photos. Geocities is just picky that way.
www.transitgallery.com (coming soon, hopefully)
:-)
Elias
The shots can't be on your computer, unless your computer is on a network with internet access.
To link to the pic or have it embedded in your posts needs to have the HTML coding in order for it to be part of the message.
To get an idea of the HTML coding, look at the source of a post that has a pic in it in your browser. Right click the page the post is in and you will see all the coding of the post and a lot of other junk.
You will have to dig for the code for the pic.
Or, some kind soul will explain the coding for you.
Elias
If this doesnt help, Im going to be at Werblin on Thursday evening and youre welcome to stop by.
John
The Rutgers bus system certainly has a learning curve. I dont know nearly enough about it myself.
However, if all you need to do is get from College Ave to Busch, then the A (runs just about all the time) or the H (peak hours during the week) will do you. The nuance is that there is a loop on Busch, depending on whether you take the right fork (Bartholomew) or left fork (Frelinghuysen) at the new traffic circle. The A goes left while the H is running, but right the rest of the time. Nowhere have I seen that documented.
Bus frequency is reasonable during the week, but you want to wait somewhere warm (like the Busch student center) at weekends, where the frequency is definitely low! The applet you point to is pretty useless in generalonly seems to work when you dont need it!
John
The nicest buses to look at are the ones in the Scarlet Knights wrap. Unfortunately they are pretty useless inside, because they were bought ADA and the wheelchair space makes for a less-than-optimal layout.
(Before anyone rants at me, these buses are used for sports teams transportation and I dont think the football team needs the ADA conversions somehow)
From the SubwayWebNews website.
Bill "Newkirk"
I never did see anything after that brand new as I moved out of the area. By the time I got back, the grafitti vandals took over.
I don't ever remember seeing the TA logos on the R10's....though I distinctly remember them being blue and white (in a couple variations, at that....)
First off we will take care of some business. I have made a change in the
subject line on the e-mail form of this column. I have had complaints from
some folks that they are not receiving the columns at times. I have also
received bounce backs from some addresses as well. It appears that some
ISP's, particularly those with spam blockers or some sort of controls to
keep the youngsters away from what they don't need to be viewing; have been
blocking Hot Times on the High Iron Columns from reaching some of the
intended addresses. So beginning with this column, I will send it under its
initials for the subject line. So you will receive it as "HTOTHI" instead
of under the full name of the column. This should, I repeat should, correct
some delivery problems, but I won't make any promises or guarantees.
Once again I have changed job assignments. Now I am working the
Markham-Glenn Transfer job, R980. This has me going to work at 1830 hours
and also working more hours. So right when we were starting to catch up on
e-mail and the like, we are now falling behind again. If you have written
me about something and I haven't responded in a timely manner that is why.
And our last order of business, if you have not yet answered you Hot Times
survey, I strongly recommend that you do it now. I said now, not later, not
tomorrow, now! While I have not yet gone through all of the responses, I
have processed about half of them placing the responses in a data base.
Slowly but surely I will get it complete, process the information and then
report the findings back to all of you.
And now for something completely different.
This time it is the eclipse of a loony (or lunar) night.
I had another column nearly finished and was going to run that one this
time, but as it happens in the rail industry, the exigencies of the
operation dictated a change. Today's journey would seem like it was gleaned
right out of an episode of "The Twilight Zone."
There is truth to the legend of a full moon creating strange behavior in
people. Full moons also seem to wreak havoc in other ways as well. I have
known many police officers, firefighters (I come from a family of them),
paramedics, doctors, nurses and even a couple of shrinks. They all tell
stories of people's weird behavior and strange events that seem to run
concurrent with the cycles of the moon. I've had a few friends over the
years that also seemed to get a little squirrelly at full moon time as
well. As for railroaders though it is hard to tell; we are already a little
off center anyway.
On Saturday, November 8th we had a full moon in our evening skies. There
was a total lunar eclipse that took place as well. At 1918 hours Central
Time here in the Chicago area, the moon was completely cast in the shadow
of mother earth. This is actually a phenomenon that occurs every
twenty-eight days but is not normally visible, particularly to a large
percentage of the population on a regular basis. I know it has been quite
awhile since I have witnessed one. The last total eclipse I can recall
observing occurred the night before I took the first of my two final
examinations for promotion to Locomotive Engineer in July 1981. I passed
that exam along with the other one the following week and the rest, as they
say, is history. Hmm, perhaps that correlation between strange behavior and
full moons is much closer to me than I think.
In Italian, the word luna means moon. Perhaps it is from luna that the word
loony evolved. Maybe my ancestors correlated weird behavior with the lunar
cycles. Now unlike Gus Portocolus the character from the movie "My Big Fat,
Greek Wedding", I cannot and do not try to determine the origin of every
word in the English language. For the handful of people that did not see
this movie, Gus had what seemed to be a rather unusual hobby of finding the
Greek origin for virtually every word or name in the English language. He
tied every syllable or name ever spoken to a word derived from the Greek
language. I think Gus had far too much free time on his hands.
In any event, with both a full moon and a total lunar eclipse, it seems
like my tour of duty this evening just kept getting stranger as the night
progressed. The railroad gods just loved this one, perhaps the full moon is
their fuel and the eclipse is the octane booster or better yet, nitrous
like the drag racers use. And the entire chain of strange events all
started with the coffee.
One of the Trainmaster's finished the last of a pot of coffee in the A Yard
office and was kind enough to make a fresh pot. Somehow though, he didn't
seem to get the fresh grounds into the filter. Instead most of the grounds
wound up in the finished product. So when this pot finished brewing, it was
akin to a jar of crunchy style peanut butter. Not being one to want to chew
my coffee, I had to pour it all out. My Conductor, Gary McMaken, started
yet another fresh pot, carefully pouring the package of grounds inside the
filter.
So now with fresh, "creamy style" coffee in our thermos bottles we were
transported out to our power, the CN 4031 and GTW 5848. Upon boarding the
CN 4031 I noticed it was rather chilly in the cab and that the forced air
heaters were not operating. I also discovered a work report that stated the
heater on the Fireman's side was not working at all and that the one on the
Engineer's side kept tripping the breaker and shutting down. This is never
good, especially when the weather guessers are calling for temperatures in
the high teens to lower twenties. Two electric side wall heaters and one
forced air heater that only works when it is in the mood will not do this
evening. So a call to the Markham General was initiated and when all was
said and done, we put this power onto the pit where it could be taken for
service. We were then transported to another set of power.
Our new power would be the CN 4017 and GTW 5830. I thoroughly checked out
the heaters on both of them before anything else. They worked as designed.
I even caught a break as they were not due a daily inspection. However, I
noticed the end of train telemetry box on the 4017 was in an error mode.
Every screen on the box had what looked like an "E" on them. I rebooted the
box and this problem cleared up. Once we were finally ready to go, we
received permission to head over to F Yard to get our train.
As we doubled up the train I discovered a problem with the counter on the
telemetry head box. It wouldn't work. I had this unit as my leader going
north this past Monday and it worked, albeit way inaccurate, but it worked.
Tonight though there was nothing; just a beep whenever I hit the button to
start the counter and a blank screen where the counter displays.
The next "Twilight Zone" event occurred while we were doubling up our
train. For whatever reason, our second track was not in one piece. There
were cars at the north end of track 20F and cars at the south end of 20F
with a gap in between them. This track was supposed to be all coupled up
but wasn't for whatever reason. To save some time, the Trainmaster picked
up Gary and drove him back to make the coupling between the two cuts of
cars. Here is where the failure to do what should have been done actually
played in favor of the Canadian National.
After coupling the two cuts up and removing handbrakes and yard air from
the cut at the south end of 20F, Gary noticed two cars that should not be
in our train, or at least not in a block that would be transported north of
Riverdale anyway. There were two gondolas loaded with prefabricated switch
panels. These panels are switches that are built at Lewis Rail located
within Markham Yard and then transported to a location where they will be
installed on some railroad. Gary observed that they appeared to be too high
to be taken to Glenn Yard. These cars were located in a block of cars bound
for Fond du Lac, WI. The FDL block is normally the rear block of our train.
This block connects with a Wisconsin Division train at Glenn Yard. Upon
further review it was determined that both of these cars had dimensions in
excess of seventeen feet above the top of the rail. This meant they would
not be going to Glenn Yard.
All of the overhead bridges north of Kensington are just above seventeen
feet in height above the top of the rail. The MoPac bridge just south of
Kensington has one track passing underneath that allows for high cars to
pass, track four. However, this will be of no benefit to us. It is decided
to instead, interchange these cars to the Indiana Harbor Belt. What this
means is we will have to set them out from the rear of our train when we
reach Highlawn, where we affect interchange with the IHB.
Now had Gary not been back there to spot these two cars, they would have
been pulled north and at either the MoPac overhead or the NS/BRC overhead
at 95th Street, we would have lowered the height of these two sets of
switch panels. Of course we probably would have destroyed them in the
process but we would have corrected the excessive height problem. It
wouldn't be the first time somebody tried to squeeze an excessive height
car through one of these bridges. Although I believe we would have been the
first ones this year to attempt this feat.
After we got the air test and Gary was on board it was then I learned that
we would be handing all the interchange business tonight. We have an
assignment that goes on duty about 2300 hours that handles the interchange
traffic to the IHB at Highlawn and CSX at what used to be called Wildwood
in Riverdale. Today this location is called the CSX Connection. But here is
one of those old railroad issues; this portion of CSX was part of the old
Baltimore & Ohio, actually the B&O Chicago Terminal. To this day many
people still call this the B&O connection. It doesn't matter that this
hasn't been the B&O in years.
But I digress.
Normally the 2300 "Interchange" job handles the deliveries to the IHB and
CSX. Tonight we would get them instead. What this means is two more blocks
of cars on our train and two more stops. The IHB block would be right
behind the engines and the CSX block right behind them. However, we have
those two gons of switch panels way back at the tail end of the train that
must also be set out at the IHB, so that means pulling the entire train by,
setting those two cars over, shoving the entire train back and then setting
out the block of IHB's out that are on the head end. So this means an even
bigger delay.
Well, as we pulled the train by for Gary to make the rear end set out, he
encounters our next full moon folly, extra cars not on the list. It turns
out we have not one, nor even two, but six, yes folks count 'em, six extra
cars in our train that do not appear anywhere on our wheel report. So
another delay is encountered as we have to call Markham and report these
car numbers to him over the radio. He checks these numbers in the computer
and tells us where they are going. As it works out, two of them are IHB
cars, and the other four are bound for CSX. And we did catch a break in
that all of these cars were set in the proper blocks so there was no
additional switching to get them set out. The railroad gods can't win them
all I guess.
With all the CSX and IHB work finished we head on north to Fordham. We have
a list of fifty-four cars we are supposed to pick up there and take to
Glenn Yard with us. The Fordham pick up is routine on our assignment. The
Recycle Job normally switches out the cars received here in interchange
from the South Shore and Chicago Rail Link. Cars bound for Glenn Yard are
separated into two blocks, Glenn's and Fond du Lac's and we stop and pick
them up. No big whoop.
More often than not we use track three or four out of Kensington to
accomplish our work keeping the main tracks clear for traffic. Tonight
though we use number two main out of Kensington and head up to the switch
at 79th Street where we will reach in and grab the cars. As we rolled up
that way we discovered the next lunar loony; more extra cars. As we passed
the cut of cars in the yard at Fordham, we discuss how it looks like far
more than the fifty-four being advertised.
A taxi was waiting at the switch at 79th Street. We usually get one here to
assist the Conductor by driving him around to expedite the move. We reached
back and coupled onto the cars here and Gary entered the cab to check the
cars against his list. It turns out there are an additional twenty-one cars
here. A call to Markham had them instructing us to pick them all up and
take them to Glenn Yard with us. They didn't even want any car numbers.
None of the extra cars contained hazardous materials, so we needed no
paperwork in order to move them.
Once we had them doubled back to our train, another lunar loony transpired;
I lost the brake pipe pressure display on my head end telemetry unit. The
screen just went dark. Everything else was working on it, just no reading
of brake pipe pressure. I knew the pressure was increasing as the box was
beeping every time the pressure increased as the system was recharging.
Like everything else high tech, when in doubt, reboot. I rebooted the box
and the brake pipe pressure reading was restored.
With brake test complete we head north again towards Glenn Yard.
The air did not seem to be the best after we made our pick up. Even though
the leakage test indicated only three pounds per square inch of brake pipe
leakage, it just didn't seem right. When I slowed for a 10 MPH speed
restriction, it took forever for the brakes to release. I only had 112 cars
and while it was cold out, the train wasn't that big and it wasn't bitter
cold. I released the brakes at 18 MPH and was down to about 6 MPH before
they felt like they were starting to release.
As we worked our way through the twin towers of 16th and 21st Street
crossings, the air problems became a little more severe. Our railroad
twists and bends through here and you cannot see the signal for 21st Street
until you are about five or six cars away from it. The best signal you get
in advance of it is an approach (yellow) signal. This signal indicates that
I must proceed prepared to stop before passing the next signal. This is the
phrase that pays. If I don't get stopped before passing a stop signal at
21st Street, I get decertified for thirty days along with an equal amount
of time of without pay as discipline. So being ever so mindful of the rules
and also the desire to maintain the lifestyle the beautiful bride has
become accustomed to, I set the air to apply the brakes on the train as I
pass 16th Street.
I had actually released the brakes before the signal at 21st Street came
into view as I was well under control of the train. Even if it would have
been displaying a stop signal I would have been able to stop easily for the
signal. Well, the air on the train did cooperate and we ground to a halt
instead. I waited for what should have been sufficient time for them to
release, but I could not get the train started. I tried making a full
service application of the brakes to equalize the system and get all the
brakes to fully release but the train still did not want to move.
My train only had about twenty-one loads, but they were back at the tail
end. I had a concern about possibly stringlining the train causing a
derailment. The best way to describe stringlining would be to have you take
say a shoelace and laying it on the table. Now make bends in the shoelace
so that it is not sitting in a nice straight line but rather looking like a
meandering river. Now grab a hold of one end then pull the other end. It
straightens right out correct? This is in effect, what stringlining is with
a train. If there are brakes sticking towards the rear and I start pulling
too hard through all these curves and bends, I could stringline the train.
Such an event could constitute poor train handling and also get me an
unplanned and unpaid vacation.
So I tried one last trick, taking slack. I bunched the slack up just a bit,
backing the engines up about half a car length. I then started pulling
forward again and the train, while fighting me began to all roll in the
same direction.
The rest of the trip to Glenn was pretty uneventful. We just did a stop and
go at the Panhandle in Brighton Park. There was no cross traffic for once
and we even had the line up to proceed when we arrived there. First time
that has happened all week. We've been blocked there with NS and CSX cross
traffic pretty much every night and had to sit and wait our turn.
We finally arrive at Glenn and I informed the Yardmaster we did not have a
good list of our train. We were lined up to continue down number one main
and told to hold up at 47 Crossover at the south end of the yard. Of course
being that we had a stop signal at 47, there wasn't much choice in the
matter anyway. We were told they wanted to get a look at our train before
they decided what they were going to have us do. There is an automatic
equipment identification reader at 45 Crossover. This device sends a radio
signal to the little transponder tags on each car to read the numbers of
them as they pass the reader. When the train is clear of the reader and the
information is processed, the SRS computer system automatically updates our
train and prints out a list of it in the Yardmaster's office. I think that
when they reviewed the list and discovered our train looked like a dozen
eggs that were just run through the food processor; they decided we would
not make any type of set out tonight. Instead we cut away from the train,
ran back to the other end through the yard and coupled onto our outbound
train.
We pulled the train up to the office, went and procured the paperwork
required for the trip back to Markham and then got our air test. By now
though, we were living on borrowed time. There was virtually no chance of
making it all the way back. The mission had now become a suicide mission;
we would die in the attempt to accomplish our primary objective.
One last lunar loony took place while were performing our brake test.
Outbound BNSF train CNIGAL (which originates at Glenn Yard and goes to
Galesburg, IL) was getting ready to depart from the south end. This train
had an old Santa Fe GP7 rebuild in the lead instead of some nice road
power. The outbound Engineer reported that he could not take this as his
lead unit because among other problems, it was not equipped for use with
end of train telemetry equipment. This engine was basically a yard engine
and why it was sent out on the BNSF train that comes to Glenn Yard daily is
beyond me. The BNSF crew had to wind up cutting off from their train and
take the power down to CP Canal where the IHB crosses and connects. They
would have to turn the power there and bring it back to Glenn. Their
trailing unit was an SD70M with all the appointments and features required
to be a good lead unit on a through freight train.
We finally departed at about 0505 and headed back to Markham. The sand in
our hours of service glass would run out at 0630. Our new primary objective
was to expire at a location that would allow easy access for the taxi to
reach and rubber tire us back to Markham. We made it as far as Kensington
and quietly passed away at the dawn of the new day. The cab, now required
to perform the duties of a hearse was able to drive up nice and close to
the train. We solemnly entered it and began the journey to our final tie up
location.
Did I mention that this was my Friday? And of course on getaway day what
normally seems to occur? Losing the battle with the hours of service and
then a cab ride home what else? Well, it's not like I really wanted all
that extra sleep when I got back to my house today.
Somewhere out there in the place where the railroad gods live, I believe
the late Rod Serling, creator of "The Twilight Zone" joined up with them
for tonight's journey. With the both the full moon and total lunar eclipse
at their disposal, this night was just right for picking. Dead people can
do stuff like that.
You know at least once during the course of this journey I could have sworn
I heard that haunting theme from the Twilight Zone playing. And I believe
that in one of the windows of the one of the apartments I was looking into
in Mayor Daley's neighborhood there was a guy with dark hair, a plain black
suit with white shirt and skinny black tie. He was looking back at me. And
yes, he did have his hands folded in front of him as he smiled an eerie
sort of smile at me. Maybe old Rod is not all that far from us in his
hereafter.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, 2003 by JD Santucci
Look at this data table
Total Eclipse of the Moon
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
' '
W073 55, N40 44
Eastern Daylight Time
EventDate & Time
(Year Mon DD Hr:Min)Moon'sAzimuth Altitude Moonrise2004 Oct 27 17:4773.8----Moon enters penumbra2004 Oct 27 20:05.595.124.8
Moon enters umbra2004 Oct 27 21:14.3107.437.5
Moon enters totality2004 Oct 27 22:23.4123.449.3
Middle of eclipse2004 Oct 27 23:04.0135.955.2
Moon leaves totality2004 Oct 27 23:44.6151.959.8
Moon leaves umbra2004 Oct 28 00:53.7186.162.6
Moon leaves penumbra2004 Oct 28 02:02.7218.357.9
Moonset2004 Oct 28 07:49290.3----
Two hours later than the last one, but a befitting finale for a hell of a day!
R40 4252 --> One (or both) of its storm door windows has a rubber window frame (like what the late R36WFs 9577-76 once had on its rollsign panels) as opposed to the usual metallic frame that's found on virtually every storm door window.
R40 4325 --> One of its rollsign boxes on the side has larger display windows in the interior. Perhaps this was done to make the sign show more text from the inside.
Also I was on a R32 this morning (sadly, I do not have the number) that had two ad panels adjacent to the T/O's cab. Normally there should only be one.
Some time ago, I, and perhaps others, posted about a set of R46s that does not have the updated signs (they still display them in the "old" style). I was on this set today on the G and the signs STILL have not been changed.
2271 (1) Original R68 North Terminal, Original R68A South Terminal
2834 (2) Original R68A North Terminal, Original R68A South Terminal
2813 (1) Original R68A North Terminal, Current South Terminal
2814 (2) Original R68A North Terminal, Original R68A South Terminal
2904? (2?) Original R68 North & South Terminals
5111 Original R68? Route? (Shows Diamond W)
2 7 AV EXPRESS
2 TO WAKEFIELD-241
Other times, they read:
2 7 AV EXPRESS
2 TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST
Does this mean that some R142/R142A destination signs are oversized or undersized?
And IIRC there was an R42 with a backwards sign box AND an upside-down south terminal roll.
Plus there is a wierd R40M with a right-side up yellow B outside and a right-side up N on the inside. How the hell that happened I don't know.
Some R62As on the 7 have R62 signs OR R62-style signs. I have seen some R62s with R62A signs.
--Z--
I saw that particular duo (it's just 2 cars out of the 4-car set) on the V a while ago. It was 5596-5597.
V| via 6 AV
V| 71/CONTINENTAL
V| 6 AV LOCAL
V| to 2 AV/MANHTN
There's also that R32 that has a R27/30 "B" end...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I don't see why the Archer Av designation was dropped, though.
The puzzle is copyright in 1973 by
Gameophiles Unlimited, Inc.
P.O. Box 34
Berkeley Heights, N.J. 07922
I believe that this is the same company who offered the 1971 New York puzzle that we discussed at length some time ago.
I don't know squat about tokyo's subways, but each line in Tokyo is color coded on the map.
Yellow-Ginza Line
Red-Marunouchi Line
Gray-Hibiya Line
Light Blue-Tozai Line
Green-Chiyoda Line
Pink-Metropolitan No. 1 Line
Dark Blue-Metropolitan No. 6 Line
Bold Black-JNR
Thin Black-Private Railways
My wife and I put it together last night, and while not easy, it was very interesting. It was a 500 piece puzzle, and four pieces were missing. We don't think that we will want to put this one together again because of the missing pieces.
I am sort of curious as to just how many different subway map puzzles this company might have offered.
The way the damaged box was taped closed, I don't think he did that.
Incidentally, I hand made some replacement pieces for the New York map puzzle (they turned out pretty well), and have assembled the puzzle again on two different occasions,
I guess that I am a sucker for N Y Subway Maps!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
If you consider the through-running schemes of the Tokyo Subway with private regional rail carriers, then a great deal of the system is above-ground after a given subway line reaches its outer terminus in Tokyo and becomes a train line to the 'burbs.
[BTW, I'm almost finished writing up a report about the Tokyo Subways to give to David; it's only about a year late... :-(]
Yes it has been done many times, fastest is 23 to 26 hours, but records are meaningless, since with route changes and all, sometimes connections might be better than others.
Riding the (Q) to Coney Island (when that is open, of course) covers the Brighton and then the (D) will cover the west end to W4th, where one might take the (F) back to CI, and the (N) back to Broadway, and so on.
Of course others would want to ride whole routes at once and so might take the (J) from Broad Street to Jamaica Center, and then the (E) back to WTC... Maybe Switch to the (A) to do the Rockaways, and stay on that back to 207...
You gotta plan what you want to do.
Elias
As previously mentioned, for whatever odd reason, the trains with the new announcements have interior displays which flash this:
(6) TO BROOKLYN BRIDGE
(6) THE NEXT STOP IS
(6) GRAND CENTRAL
(6) 4:30 PM
Instead of flashing...
(6) TO BKLYN BRIDGE
(6) GRAND CENTRAL NEXT
(6) 4:30 PM
Also, the "bitch" now does EVERY transfer announcement, and not just the ones which had to be changed. I'll miss Charlie.
Audio change examples, done by me (don't worry, sound-effect free):
Old 59 Street announcements
New 59 Street announcements
Old 42 Street announcements
New 42 Street announcements
Prehaps you should tell MTA that "I DO BETTER ANNOUNCEMENTS THAN YOU!"...hehe
There's no reason to have such an unhappy lady doing the announcements. It lowers rider morale, and pisses off cheerful thinkers.
If you didn't record with your own voice, I will click on those links.
I don't have any sort of recording equipment I could use to take audio samples from the trains, so yes, I recorded them in my own voice(s).
I may not sound like those girlie announcers, but dammit, I can sure mimmick them!
What's it called?
The black and white photo, with the Board of Transportation staff posed in front of a shiny new R-1 #107, check out the rollsign.
Shouldn't the destination sign read Houston-Delancey instead of Houston-Essex ?
Essex St. upstairs was the BMT station. If Delancey St. was a temporary terminus, before the line was extended, that sign was seems to be in error. Am I right ?
Remember the signs for Fulton-Rockaway or Fulton-East NY ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No you're wrong on that count. The R-1's used on the Sea Beach test had special signs made for them. The sign on #107 said Houston-Essex. That's Houston as in IND Houston St. subway.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, this may sound out of space, but here goes.
When was the Chrystie Street connection between Houston and
Delancey Streets built? We know it when in to service in 1968.
As a very young lad, I had a cousin took me to work via
truck to New Jersey via the Wille B. IIRC, the Chrystie
Street connection was under construction and this was in
the late 1940s. Very faint recollection though or am I
mistaken?
8-) ~ Sparky
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
A couple of times I noticed a strange whine or whirring sound from the back end of 100. I noticed a couple of the crew aboard picked up on the sound.
It sounded like a bearing or gear sound, but actually unlike anything I had previously heard in one of the older cars. Did anyone else hear it?
wayne
Tri-Rail officials testing cheap, clean self-propelled commuter cars
By Michael Turnbell
Transportation Writer
November 3, 2003
Tri-Rail's commuter trains may soon be leaving the station -- without locomotives.
The South Florida Regional Transportation Authority plans to test a new self-propelled car that has its own engine and can drive a train by itself.
Known in the industry as "diesel multiple units," they get better fuel mileage than locomotives and are about half as noisy. They also produce fewer dirty emissions.
The tests will begin within the next year, once the transportation authority chooses a company to supply the cars. So far, Colorado Railcar is the only one to manufacture a car to meet federal standards and might be the only viable candidate.
The Florida Department of Transportation received a $3.97 million grant from the Federal Transit Administration to buy the cars, and the Transportation Department is providing matching funds to run the tests.
In September Regional Transportation Authority officials tested the self-propelled train car from Colorado Railcar. The sleek car, which looks more like a futuristic bus that runs on rails, pulled two of Tri-Rail's two-level coaches. The train stopped at every station to simulate a typical Tri-Rail trip between Mangonia Park in Palm Beach County and Miami.
Brad Barkman, the Regional Transportation Authority operations director, said the initial results were promising. But he said a longer test in real-life conditions is necessary to determine whether the car lives up to its money-saving claims.
The self-propelled car used 128 gallons of fuel for the 144-mile round trip, compared with Tri-Rail locomotives that use about 325 gallons to make the same trip.
The car can carry 92 passengers in a single-deck configuration and pull two to three coach cars. It uses "push-pull" technology, which enables the train to reverse direction quickly and is key on a commuter rail line such as Tri-Rail.
The big advantage of the self-propelled car is the cost. The car goes for $2.9 million, which is comparable to the cost of a locomotive. But a car also serves as a coach, which can save transit agencies the cost of buying both a locomotive and a $2 million passenger car.
The car passed federal safety tests this year indicating it can survive a collision with a locomotive, allowing it to run on a freight line. For passengers, that means they'll be safer in a crash.
Tom Rader, president of the Fort Lupton, Colo.-based Colorado Railcar, said the cars have 1,200 horsepower compared to a locomotive's 3,500 horsepower. But he said the smaller unit is still sufficient to pull two coach cars up to 79 mph.
"We're not dragging 245,000 pounds of dead weight," Rader said. "It doesn't have that pounding feeling like when a locomotive goes by."
Some European railroads use self-propelled cars, and a commuter rail system in Dallas uses an older version called rail diesel cars.
Rader said about two dozen transit agencies in the United States and Canada have expressed interest in the self-propelled cars.
Central Florida was in line to buy the commuter-rail cars. But they became unnecessary when Orange County voters crushed a sales tax plan that would have helped build commuter rail service to relieve congestion on Interstate 4.
Michael Turnbell can be reached at mturnbell@sun-sentinel.com or 954-356-4155.
Copyright 2003, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
It say's they'll begin testing next year, so I don't know if that means revenue service, or they're just going to drive it back and forth during off-peak times. I'd like to ride it and see how different it is from EMU's, but like it says, next year. Hopefully I can find out how it's going to be transported, or what livery it's going to use by then, maybe catch it in transit to Miami.
Least something new is coming to that region of the universe.
Like this, please: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cdiesel02nov03,0,2303319.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla
Gotta love the sales pitch by the media, eh? “Without locomotives,” it makes it sound like driving an automobile with no engine. Also, that comment about “some European countries” using DMUs is a grave understatement, for many of them do. Another one is the understated comment about the RDC being an “older version” when it is indeed a DMU through and through.
Also, the people in Orange County will be sorry that they defeated that sales tax measure to help pay for commuter rail, because even if I-4 was widened, the traffic situation will never improve. Just the way things are when it comes to highways.
I've come to the conclusion that the people in orange county hate waiting more than 5 minutes in line, or using a dial-up modem, but have zero problem sitting in traffic for over a half hour to clear an intersection. No matter what they do, it will still cost over 1.6 billion per highway lane to build, and I-4 will always be at a C or lower level of service. But they will all complain about $400 mil for light rail, or $60 for commuter rail.
I guess the numbers don't lie when they talk about avg SAT and education scores there...they are morons. They keep paying taxes for other systems. :)
It say's they'll begin testing next year, so I don't know if that means revenue service, or they're just going to drive it back and forth during off-peak times. I'd like to ride it and see how different it is from EMU's, but like it says, next year. Hopefully I can find out how it's going to be transported, or what livery it's going to use by then, maybe catch it in transit to Miami.
Least something new is coming to that region of the universe.
Of course, there IS a reason why: the announcements were made for these trains when they were built nearly two years ago. At that time, the (W) didn't go exactly where it goes today, the (F) went through the 53 Street Tunnel with the (E), and the (V) didn't exist.
>>This is...Park Place.
>>Transfer is available to the A, C, and E trains.
{ding!}
Then again, they'll have to stop doing that later this month when the WTC PATH station opens up.
R-32.
I meant to say that if you're caught riding the loop, not asking before.
Congrats! I will have to do that one of these days. I haven't been through there since the IRT MOD trip.
I actually visited the station twice, once by it's self (the first time), and the second time it was part of a "Day One on the IRT" tour which included a tour of the lower Lex, and Upper Broadway line, including stops at various abandoned stations/areas. THAT was a tour. That's the one I took in 1998. I have to try scanning some of my slides from that now that I have my new slide scanner. It's a shame the TM doesn't do these anymore. The sick part is the "Day One" tour was only like $15.00 for members! Sick!
Install gap fillers, realign the track the way it was when originally in revenue service and have the same kind of announcement as at South Ferry - door of the first five cars will not open, and sell Metro cards at that station with reproductions of an original Interborough ticket on one side.
--mark
I haven't been down there since I took that cover picture for my book in 1997. I was with an empolyee at the time and I got to wander all over that station for about 15 minutes. I wish I'd fired off a LOT more film than I did, too. I understand it's nowhere near as nice as it was then -- very dirty and grimy. I should really go through there again one of these days.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
Anyway, here's a few random photos from those two tours:
1994:
1998:
Bill "Newkirk"
Perhaps the rebuilding of City Hall Park may have something to do with the new damage.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a before and after shot of 18th Street taken from very similar angles:
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
Here's a few more random shots of 18th Street:
(The two B/W images from www-tech.mit.edu, the rest taken by me)
As for Worth St, it's not quite as bad, although also trashed. But it hasn't reached the levels of 18th St or 91st St (91st St being the most vandalized abandoned station I know of). What is interesting about Worth St is that it has one complete platform (like all the others on Lex), and has encased 1930's columns, just like most of the stations (such as 23rd St). The other side is original, and the size of 18th St. Here are some photos from Joe Brennan's great site
your answer lies in the trip report.
Before:
After-same stairway:
Same little monogram visable in first photo:
Now you people think the men's room at Coney Island used to be bad, how about this:
Here's a few more random images from 91st Street:
(The B/W image is from www-tech.mit.edu, the rest taken by me)
Bill "Newkirk"
These stations were built by immigrant labor and are architectural gems whose like we will never see again. 18th is a particularly rare gem in that it still has both 1904 short-length platforms whereas 91st and Worth were both at least partially extended.
I would love to see the MTA restore these stations to their original glory in time for the Centennial and then maintain them to keep miscreants from ruining them again. The London Underground has numerous closed stations and none of them look anywhere near as ugly as ours.
Good point about NYC not having a monopoly on vandals, graffiti or otherwise.
Before:
After, similar angles:
(That's the same name tablet and stairway as in the original old photo).
The photos at 14th Street didn't come out good, but here's one of Grand Central Tower, also covered on that tour. They actually took us to where the line used to turn off onto 42nd Street.
(The old photo of BB is from www-tech.mit.edu, the rest are mine)
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/14st.html
HEAD FOR THE STORM SHELTERS!!!!!!!!
VC Madman
It can't change tomorrow.
They need to get 6 trains out of there fast. If they call it non-revenue trackagae they are under a legal obligation to exert full diligence to keep riders from riding through the loop. Then the 6 service goes all to pieces.
They would have to hire 10 platform conductors, 1 per car, to make this non-revenue trackage.
Uh, no.
wayne
R142a's don't have rollsigns!
Of course, you're talking about when the 'birds flew on the 6, aren't you?
Seriously, am trying to ride out the bumps in the road of a certain private bus company & make it until I can retire.
I have often seen the 6 close its doors within 20 seconds at BB. There's no time to get everyone off the train.
Regards,
Jimmy
It was a nice, slow ride, but too hard to see anything because of the glare of the car's bright lights on the windows. Next time, I'll have open the end doors and peek out from between the cars.
*********************************************************************
Yet another update on the Amtrak Saga
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Crandall
*********************************************************************
It looks like Amtrak has turned to the time tested American way of increasing reveune...lawsuits! RELEASE THE LAWYERS!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Amtrakwants
*********************************************************************
It is going to be a great service to the small number of trains that actually continue through the Newport News. Hopefully some money will become abailable to make Main St Sta the main station in Richmond for both NEC and Flordia trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Richmond
*********************************************************************
Leave it to a Congressperson to praise a giant boondoggle in the making as well as conviently "forgetting" to mention that a fellow Repiglican is trying to de-rail the plan.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Quinn
*********************************************************************
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Alaska
Mark
*********************************************************************
Woah, only 7.5 hours late? Man, you haven't see anything until at least 8 hours.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Gunn
*********************************************************************
What else is new. Mayors have been pushing for transit for years, but due to the demographics of most urban areas, nobody in DC really cares.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Nation
In one paragraph they (Mayors) want more money for transit, but the funds are for HIGHWAYS and transit. I guess you already know which one is going to get the majority of the funds.
Mark
*********************************************************************
Oh god, these damn NINBIES are worse than Guilford.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Rail
Beforee you curse them too much, remember that it's generally environmentalists who oppose additional roadways and help you get rail lines done. This is one of those rare times when I would side with them and find another way to serve commuters.
Besides, they are correct: there is no money for it.
The MBTA folks should focus on finishing the Greenbush project before committing themselves to spending money they don't have.
A deep tunnel would have been better. With electric-only service.
They still don't have the money to finish it.
Personally, I would demolish the ROW and work with the Army Corp of Engineers to restore the swamp. Then look for a way to get people to other MBTA routes or build a different extension to sefve the towns.
Get Greenbush done and erefocus attention on Boston projects, like extending the Blue ine to meet the Red Line, accelerating work on the Silver Line increasing the number of ADA-compliant T stops and extending other subway services.
Why don't you ask the Nature Conservancy about swamps, Mike? They are very mainstream and responsible...and will give you a straight answer.
Apparently also according to the Sierra Club.
So the Sierra Club likes the trestle idea?
I'm still ambivalent. But I do believe that ecosystems within the swamp should not be sectioned off.
IMO, the causeway has been there so long, the ecosystems have probably adapted to its presence; removing it may be more of a detriment than reinstating rail service over it.
If the Sierra Club is truly happy with it, and the MBTA were to promise that it would use an environmentally friendly trestle, then I suppose I wouldn't go commit suicide if it went through.
Back to problem 2, though: No money.
I see nothing that says the causeway was built for this project. The article sort of implies the causeway has been there for decades.
Note that the Sierra Club opposes the legislation. The "environmental group" cited is probably just a front for NIMBYs.
I see a lot more merit to the SAS being rerouted to avoid Sara D Roosevelt Park being shut down for 10 years or keeping 100 year old trees from being cut down in Battery Park (both of which many here have decried) than I see to removing an existing causeway through a swamp.
That's a ridiculous example, because Roosevelt Park can be much more easily restored, and is not a wilderness.
I think most environmental scientists would agree you don't know what you're talking about here.
I think most environmental scientists would agree you don't know what you're talking about here.
Huh? I expressed an opinion. What does that have to do with environmental science? I didn't state a single contradictable fact.
In support of my opinion, 10 years without a neighborhood park would make a major difference to thousands of children. In contrast, the causeway is already built. I absolutely do NOT advocate building NEW causeways through swamps.
But of all the millions of cases where damage has been done to a natural environment by building on it, why do you happen to feel that that specific damage ought to be reversed? What makes it so special?
The place you live now was pristine prairie 170 years ago. Why should that not have higher priority in being restored to its natural state?
It's a lot less expensive to preserve what we have than to spend huge amounts of money undoing most of the damage already done. The most egregious cases of damage certainly need to be undone, but I don't see this causeway falling in that category.
Note: all of the above is opinion. Feel free to disagree with it, but I just don't understand why you would. Don't you believe in putting the limited money where it would do the most good?
True, but you relied for your opinion on very weak assumptions.
Note that I am not in favor of ripping up city parks and replanting them just for the fun of it. It is expensive, as the original 63rd Street line proved in Central Park.
But building a new subway is a good reason to do it. And the damage really is temporary.
"In support of my opinion, 10 years without a neighborhood park would make a major difference to thousands of children."
Nonsense. Temporary and reversible, and there are many other parks i the area. If the park were to be lost forever, I would be concerned. Your argument is sinking into quicksand here.
"The place you live now was pristine prairie 170 years ago. Why should that not have higher priority in being restored to its natural state?"
If sensible growth policies had been in place, Kansas City would serve to protect the farmland a prairie around it. If you would like to come out here and propose a reversal of sprawl in Johnson County (the suburb to the west and south of Kansas City KS) I won't stand in your way. I've already vomited buckets over it. Mile after mile of subdivisions with no sidewalks.
And to think Kansas City was once the swingin' town that gave us Charlie Parker and Count Basie.
Mark
It is you who have sunk in quicksand long ago.
It is not reversible for an entire generation of children to lose their playground, and it is clear you do not know what you are talking about? What other parks are there in the area? Do you expect little children to ride buses to East River Park?
BTW, if you've done a cost-benefit analysis, let's see it.
Yes, if it serves the greater good of all in the community, which it does.
The MTA has looked at the cost-benefit, which you can read at your leisure in the EIS.
This is unlike the proposal to build a new Yankee Stadium, which would permanently remove Macombs Dam Park.
Can you name one, please? One even half the size of Sara D Roosevelt Park?
By the way, almost all ecological damage is also temporary and reversible. It all depends what you call too long a time frame for temporary to be acceptable and what you call too much money for reversible to be acceptable.
Yes, this is true. A wetlands which is completely drained can be restored with a massive engineering effort - but it becomes improbable if conditions have changed so much that the original starting conditions are gone.
Witness the Everglades. If the Army Corp of Engineers can get5 enough political support (meaning the sugar growers can be persuaded to back off a little) the Everglades can be restored to a great degree.
But an urban park is far easier to restore than a wetland.
However, this is not true of Yankee Stadium plans. If I recall correctly, Macombs Dam Park could be permanently lost if a new stadium goes up, Has this threat changed since I last checked?
If there was a Nobel prize for condescension, you'd win every year.
They still don't have the money to finish it.
Makes sense... you're arguing that the MBTA can't afford a $700 million project, so they should instead undertake a $700 billion alternative. This is why things never get built.
Get Greenbush done and erefocus attention on Boston projects, like extending the Blue ine to meet the Red Line, accelerating work on the Silver Line increasing the number of ADA-compliant T stops and extending other subway services.
I agree there's much to be done within the city, much of which could have been paid for with the money that was wasted putting the Green Line underground, but none of that helps get people into the city on rails. I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, but there has been a small highway construction project in Boston for the past couple of decades; part of its success is reducing traffic volumes into the city. There happens to be this abandoned line serving communities that desperately need commuter rail access to Boston; it would be foolish to let the opportunity pass.
I agree. It's wishful thinking, mostly.
"There happens to be this abandoned line serving communities that desperately need commuter rail access to Boston; it would be foolish to let the opportunity pass."
That depends on where it is and what it does.
The Rockaway Line in NYC is abandoned and it would be foolish and pointless right now to spend money on it unless new thinki9ng is brought to bear on how it would get done.
While I'd love to see that line reactivated, it connects two areas that are already well served by transit, with bus service meeting the demand for travel between the two. Fall River and New Bedford are completely isolated, except by highway.
Do you know if a hockey player by the name of Jason lives there?
:0)
They don't. Read the article carefully. The only environmental group quoted as opposed is one no one has ever heard of and is probably a NIMBY group in disguise. The Sierra Club, which is a nationally known environmental group, is quoted as supporting the trains.
Nowadays even heavily pro-industry groups give themselves names like "Concerned Citizen for the Environment."
This being a free country, a group in favor of building 16-lane highways could legally call itself "Citizens for Better Public Transit."
Shhhh. Someone will hear you and think it's a great idea.
Mark
I am indeed. But these aren't them - and you would do well to learn the difference.
1) Work with the Army Corp of Engineers to remove the causeway ad restore the swamp
2) Find an alternate route that will accomplish basically the same thing or something similar
or
3) Cancel it entirely after restoring the swamp and focus available $$$, which is scarce, on finishing Greenbush, planned city projects, etc.
I realize there's congestion there. Even if you keep the causeway, there's no money to build and run the train (but you might get the Corp of Engineers to help you undo the damage).
So forget that route and focus attention elsewhere. There's lots of need and not a lot of money. Get over it.
Indirectly, they are. When was the last time you were in Fall River or New Bedford? There isn't much of a whaling industry anymore; rail access to an urban center might help the towns' economies.
Indirectly, they are. When was the last time you were in Fall River or New Bedford? There isn't much of a whaling industry anymore; rail access to an urban center might help the towns' economies.
No, these are NIMBYs masquerading as environmentalists. The Sierra Club opposes the proposed legislation.
"Environmentalism" has been completely hijacked by NIMBYs, especially here in New York. A New York environmentalist is someone opposed to new development because they are afraid it will become more difficult to park their SUV on the street.
It's gotten so bad that I think that actual environmentalists are going to have to come up with a new word to call themselves.
There aren't too many whales anymore.
"rail access to an urban center might help the towns' economies."
Fine. But do it in an environmentally responsible manner. I'd be upset if a road was put through a wetlands; rail does not deserve an exemption.
Find another way to do it.
*********************************************************************
I know the fare hike was reported, but I don't know if the subsequent reduction was mentioned.
httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#MBTA
*********************************************************************
They were a success on Amtrak too. Do you think we'll ever see quiet cars on NJT/MNRR/LIRR
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Quiet
try http://www.geocities.com/rickyrab79/rickyrab.html instead
*********************************************************************
That's an interesting programme paying engineers bonuses for better preformance. I wonder if the same could work in passenger rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#NSBLEreach
If you talk to BLE members, you'll find that most aren't all that impressed by their "union" and what it eventually surrenders to. The phrase "I'll take whatever UTU got, but give me less" is a war cry with many. :)
Why shouldn't railroads do the same?
As to what you say, no argument at all. I'm just wondering how the variables fall into place in this calculation and how flexible the computer will be in determining. It becomes a question of does it only handle the acceleration and braking factors wherever required, or is it locked into a rigid "this train is expected to burn 455 gallons between here and there, why did you burn 605?" when the answer is "I spent two hours idling on a siding waiting for 405 to blow past."
That's all. (or in MTA parlance, "Boy? WHERE did you lose your TIME?")
*********************************************************************
Currently many connuter agencies like NJT and SEPTA put reflective tape all over their cars and locomotives and at least from my experiance it has been great for both safety and flash photography.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#NSBLEreach
Section 1050.9
Restricted areas and activities.
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
Print this out and you are good to go for all your train spotting!
The opening sequence has footage of R-62s near Saratoga Ave. Later, the hero & heroine have to flee a mob by running into the subway. Only problem is they jump down into the station at Eastern Parkway only to emerge at Coney Island. (?)
Or both.
Certain pre-1929 plans for the extension of the Nostrand Avenue line had it running to Manhattan Beach (via the LIRR and Manhattan Beach Railroad tracks) or Coney Island.
Just try making a R32-width car on any of the IRT lines!
Also, the R32 is smaller than the R46, although I'm not sure how it's affected by the transverse seating.
Quiet cars expected to be self-policing
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Quiet
Grow up!
Every year Clay Chastain (who now lives in Tennessee) has been putting light rail sales tax initiatives on the ballot. They are well intentioned, but he makes unrealistic assumptions regarding the kind of funding that can be generated with sales taxes.
This year, a ballot question supported by KC Transit (KCATA.org) did pass, which prevents a cutback of bus services. It will allow modest improvements in bus service.
It costs $1 to ride the bus here; transfers are free. The fare on the airport bus is the same; a free transfer from another bus will get you on it.
The umbrella group holding discussions is called Mid-America Regional Council (MARC).
:0)
Destination Freedom link
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Westfall
Some riders will see smaller hike
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#MBTA
Destination Freedom link
Voice your displeasure with your elected officials, and demand that the conference commitrtee add significantly to the final bill (but not so much so Bush won't sign it).
That means you, Jersey Mike!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11102003.shtml#Senate
If I feel like reposting every headline 3 times, I will.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
-Robert King
Glad to hear that you've kicked your habit - but as best I can tell, you're still foaming, and that's a GOOD thing. Heh.
There is much worse, I assure you...
Been there. Had them evicted.
100% Guaranteed way to be un-Foamered.
Go into transit, either the paid or the unpaid section.
You have no respect for the Foamer, and want them far, far away.
Even if you have the handles in your hand, your interest never goes away.
I go on fantrips. I take pictures. I still am crazy about streetcars.
But I don't do the foamer stuff. That I can leave alone.
A foamer once swiped a block number plate off an in-service car - off the number 2 end, while the conductor was collecting fares. The plate in the number 1 end (where I (motorman) was remained.
I wish the screen, keyboard and mouse were plugged into a Lamborghini but this computer's coming up on four years old. I was just teasing about the meter... I'm quite familiar with the bloat idea which is something Microsoft needs to work on - eg. that video editor in Windows XP among many other things. Which is one of numerous reasons why I'm so happy about relegating Windows 98 to second place in the Linux boot menu.
-Robert King
My sympathies on being stuck with Gnome. I've been piddling around with Linux for about four or five years now, even if I only did decide to go with it as the day to day operating system last Thursday, and I've never liked Gnome.
-Robert King
Where do you get these gems, Kev?
Your posts make giving Jersey Mike a hard time worthwhile!
'Course if you posted them anyway, I wouldn't have to work so hard...
:0)
Sometimes the unconventional makes the point better than people calling each other asshats. :)
To come full circle not if you recieved on-time bonuses.
In a case like that though, I *could* have just discharged the train and gotten my bonus for making the terminal 5 minutes hot. (grin)
Even though on numerous occasions after an "announcement" I'd hear applause and laughter coming from "my" train, the wigs didn't like it. Some folks would bang me in with complaints, I suspect many more banged me in with "why can't everybody be like that?" Matters not, you got in trouble for being NOTICED, one way or the other.
I'm SURPRISED that the formal announcement isn't, "Thank you for riding MTA New York City subways and have a MODERATE generic workperiod. And for those who are not working, have a moderate time period until we see you again." :)
What if Nancy wants to run it?
Are you telling us you are...oh, Mike, I'm sorry, I didn't know you liked your own gender that much...OK, I'll stop.
:0)
And -- PLEASE WORK TO SAVE BOWDOIN STATION!
That is all.
Mark
--Z--
Also the Red-Blue connection at Charles MGH is looking less and less likely.
-There is no provision for it in the new Charles MGH station.
-The people who live in the area (Beacon Hill) have a beef with the T over the Red (1800s) flat wheels and the noise banging away under their feet. This is a politically connected area.
- The only real benefit is for the folks from the "People's Republic of Cambridge" heading to the airport which will soon be handled by the Silver (bus) out of South Station.
I'd rather see that money go toward extending the line the other way, toward Lynn and Salem. That's where the real need for transportation is.
There was until 1952.
Too bad I didn't know you were coming. I was the Inspector at Gov Ctr last Friday night.
The Red Line in Boston has an express service: when I was there, a few trains each day ran non-stop between Harvard Square and Charles-MGH.
1) You pick trains over Booty!
2) You pick trains over your job!
3) You pick trains over personal hygine!
If This is You, Then You Need A Reality Check!
DRJ
Don
And of course, what level of school you're in.
Don
An island with no trains, to be safe.
A couple years ago I went to one of the GATS (Great American Train Show). It's a model railroad flea market, basically.
But I NEVER was in one building with so many filthy-dressed, smelly people. It was worse that the gym locker room after a good workout on a hot day. My wife commented that those were the worst bunch of slobs that she ever encountered and hasn't gone to a train show with me since...and I have been avoiding them too.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
:D
Just kidding. It's the everlasting know-it-all:
Yogurt!
Regards,
Lord Helmet
PS, Ludacrous Speed..........GOOOOO.
Regards,
Jimmy
A different form of self-gratification?
There is nothing more fun than getting booty and playing with the HO Scale at the same time. It's a tight squeeze, but possible-and a lot of fun. You need a girl who shares the same interest and hobby. The only conflict between me and my girl is that she prefers freight while I prefer commuter rail but........
IT DON'T STOP US!
Regards,
Jimmy ;)
Just don't tell her that your unit is N scale and she might still come over :-)
And the personal hygine thing, WHOA! I've been on these MOD trips and just smelling 80% of these people, after the trip I ran home to shower again! I felt nasty just smelling them!
And whoever said the comment about the outfits, hit it right on the nose, I've seen some outfits that would have the Fashion Police arrest you, lock you up and throw away the key. But the worst is the ones with "Carpenter" Syndrom. You know, the ones that when they turn around you can see the crack of thier ass!
Being a railfan, and seeing some of these at one time scared me away from the hobby. With the though of, "Wow, is this it. Is this what I'm doomed for!" Being a foaming, mental defective!
Don
That is really sad and pathetic.
You got to work around your hobbies with the more important stuff. It's great to be a railfan, but gee, is there even a choice there to be made? You can even improvise: The roof at night with the el train in the backround, a great spot-the best of both worlds-she'll love the ambiance of the night sky, and I got the R42's going by in the distance, not that they can distract too much at a time like that....
Damn, how could I have given up that apartment?
And whoever said the comment about the outfits, hit it right on the nose, I've seen some outfits that would have the Fashion Police arrest you, lock you up and throw away the key.
Once you get past the stench of some of these people on the MOD trip, you have the outfits to laugh at. There are T-Shirts with holes and worn out that probably didn't fit some guys for 20 years (and yes some look that old) with his gut hanging out. One other guy looked like he was going on a costume party with a 60's theme, right down to his embosed lime green pants, and shirt that looks like it was something out of a Bewitched episode. These guys actually look in the mirror and say, "Gee, I look good today, and am ready to leave the house."? I can't believe some of these guys even leave the house smelling and dressed the way they come on a train trip.
It's just... VERY IMPORTANT!
NO KISSING ON THE SUBWAY -- YOU NEED *AT LEAST* TEN NEW POSTS!
Democratic presidential hopeful Wesley Clark exits a subway station in Queens on his way to a campaign stop in New York.(AFP/Don Emmert)
I took a lot more. But these I like the most.
It works in the preview feature of this board.
This is what I live for...
Excellent photos by the way Jehuty, I forgot to mention that in my other post.
Peace,
ANDEE
This is what I live for...
It is not my intention to do anything but keep them for my persoanl enjoyment. So, my post was only to announce that some here are downloading copies. If I was going to sell them or otherwise reproduce them, then I would need to ask permission of the photographer. This I did when I laminated three photos of R-17s & hung them inside 6688.
The original post worked fine for me; it must be a browser thing. I have IE6.
There was a report by Philip E. Pfeifer, Superintendent of Operation of the IND, dated November 25, 1935.
There are many pages of descriptions of all aspects of the new system. The one that interested me was the description of the Station Division.
"The safety and convenience of passengers and the cleanliness of stations go hand in hand...Toilets are cleaned and serviced at least twice a day. Disinfectant is used freely, not only in the toilets but in the cleaning of various parts of the stations. All sweeping is accompanied by the generous use of damp sawdust to prevent the rise of dust and bacteria.
Economy is practiced in the supervision of labor, equipment and supplies, but even with the many close checks maintained over the purchasing and use of station supplies, it may interest you know that in one year the Station Division uses
588 corn brooms
212 push brooms
2,800 toilet and miscellaneous brushes
460 buckets
940 gallons of disinfectant
190 gallons of polish
17,00 pounds of pumice
41,000 pounds of soap
17,000 pounds of rock salt
30,000 pounds of sand
8,500 bushels of sawdust
37,000 packages of toilet paper
Does anyone have a recent figure for the number of packages of toilet paper purchased in the current year?
The report is not all cut and dry. The superintendent recounts this story:
"Prior to the time the Brooklyn extension from Bergen street to Church avenue was placed in operation, a gang of porters, all new recruits, was sent over the line to clean the stations, booths and platforms. They were all congregated at Canal street waiting for a group leader to assign them. I happened along and saw one of the porters lying on his back on the cement floor.
Another porter came up and said: "What's the matter, you tired?"
The reply was: "No, I'm not tired".
"What you lying down there for?"
"In case I do get tired".
I found it interesting in this story that "street" and "avenue" were not capitalized when referring to
Church avenue or Bergen street.
Depends...
What crew room are we talking about?
I hear that 207th St uses as many as FOUR Rolls per year!
: ) Elias
Geez, is everyone constipated? (i.e. full of shit?)
I can see it now, he'll be hell to work with for over a week !
Score one for the man from Sheepshead Bay
-Stef
If you, heypaul, are willing to move, the Los Angeles Times is always looking for those will a flair for wordplay, and, dare I say, puns. Not so much since the (Chicago) Tribune people took over, but still... On the other hand, if you have an eye for arcane capitalization rules and other usage trivia, The New Yorker has an opening for a copy editor.
Yeah, know all ABOUT "streaking" ... hell, grew up in the 50's and 60's ... Johnsons as far as the eye could see. Eww. :)
All I can say is MOVE UP FRONT ... Burma Shave.
Here it is.
(Image 2000 by Robert Marrero.)
Regards,
Jimmy
The (5) has always had three voices. The biyatch does train identification and transfers, the nice (6) voice does station identification, and Charlie does the Stand Clear.
Or maybe that's the (4).....I think on the (5), Little Miss Nasty does everything except the Stand Clear.
Ah, well, this is just more fuel for the anti-S/A fire. Let it burn.
Some places are closed today - schools, government offices, banks, some financial markets, maybe a few others. I noticed that many fewer people than usual got off the 1/9 this morning at Houston Street, probably because many regular riders work at the adjacent federal building.
Wait, so, is LIB and LIRR considerin this a holiday schedule!?
The subways are running on a standard weekday schedule, but part-time station entrances are on weekend schedules. Most part-time station entrances aren't used primarily or even largely by public school students, so they have no business being closed today.
At least the south entrance to Sheepshead Bay has HEETs that are open on weekends -- that will allow me to avoid an unnecessary walk in the rain to the entrance on Sheepshead Bay Road.
Are they having anti-military teach-ins?
There are a few holidays like this where one department of subways is on one schedule and others are on another.
Veterans Day suffers from the fact that it isn't a Monday holiday=three day weekend. That's what people care about.
Mark
Bankers used to follow the 3-5-3 rule: borrow money at 3%, lend it at 5%, and be on the golf course at 3:00 p.m.
There's good and bad in the brave new world. I like ATMs. On the other hand, I really wish cell phones were never invented and you went into a booth, closed the door and didn't bother anyone when you made a call.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, there was a 1960's movie (currently banned) called "The President's Analyst" starring James Coburn and Godfrey Cambridge which seems to be where we're heading with shell fones getting smaller and smaller and new laws prohibiting their use while driving.
This reminds me of the 1967 paranoid classic movie "The President's Analyst" (link to Amazon for info and reviews) which has a great part where Coburn's character is kidnapped by TPC, ("The Phone Company") because The Phone Company wants him to convince the President to allow The Phone Company to implant chips in everyone's brains that will allow them to dial a phone number just by thinking it.
As long as Bill Gates don't make it, seems like terminal velocity to me. :)
SEE the movie. No trains, but STILL funny as hell. :)
To diverge ever so shortly ON TOPIC, I think we can ALL be THANKFUL that cell phones don't work any better on the subways than they did in the 70's with those "blue light specials" ... if I had a token for every time I had to climb down, walk to the box on the steel, only to find that there was remains of cloth-covered wire and NO PHONE, then I'd still be riding the D train. :)
What's happened though is quite interesting ... seems the lower "monkeys on the ladder" got stuck with pagers and shell fones and the WIGS just have someone hanging around whose job it is to answer it, *or* you get an "out of the office reply" to your "message" and ain't a chance in Hades they're gonna pick up. Interesting societal shift.
Don't mind me ... I live out in the sticks. If someone REALLY needs me, they can holler. I prefer the constant silence of listening to crickets and the gnats balling. And before anyone busts my chops, I'll bet ya'll have NEVER seen gnat gnuts. :)
Ok, kill me, it's my first off topic photo - well, the tracks are about 100 feet from this on the other side of this fenced area if that counts....
BAMBI MUST DIE! (and hey, NO guilt on THIS end! PETA is WELCOME to back a truck in here ANY TIME and "rescue" the little sweeties. Heh.
One interesting factiod is that in Maryland there are more deer today than in 1632, when Lord Baltimore and the first colonists landed at St. Mary's Island.
Of course, they killed Bambi with flintlocks.
We dispatch them with either heavy weapons or automobiles.
The former drives the antin-gun folks wacko, the latter drives the insurance companies nuts.
No kidding, last winter one of our LRV's dispatched a bambi, up in Hunt Valley. The impact shattered the windshield, bent the coupler shank and covered the front with blood and fur. (yecch!).
Bambi didn't do too well either. The operator was pretty shook up, but the guff in the crew room was priceless - he nailed a 8 point buck.
Mark
Dem bears are on a comeback.
A couple actually made it into middle Baltimore County.
The cops & DNR went nuts. So did the media. You'd think we got invaded.
Both the bruins got trapped and hauled back to Garrett County, where bears and bambi play.
BTW, now we know why bambi mates in the winter...bears are in snoozeville, and when the fauns arrive, so do the cubbies (no, no the ones in Wrigley).
Best way to totally bug the females in the office: casually remark "saturday we're going out and KILL BAMBI!". Somehow the womenkind all seem to have hooked into the Disney image of Bambi.
The rumor persists that in addition to the annual leaf bulletin, the Light Rail also publishes a "deer warning". Kinda strange for a transit line.
Bottom line, PeTA *had* their chance to rescue Bambi ... nobody showed ... thus, a demonstration of what Bambi's up against now that BOW hunting season's over ... guns aren't allowed in "POSTED" territory, but if anyone's honked off at ME because several Bambi's died, here's what AWAITS ... GRENADE season! Heh.
BAMBI MUST DIE!
Veterans Day also suffers from the fact that it's hard to make money off of it. The big holidays are big because people have figured out that there's profits to be made by hyping them up. Christmas was actually of rather minor religious significance until we figured out big xmas means big bucks.
It's sad that remembering our lost loved ones gets such minor play because it's not a marketing opportunity.
Mark
I had to walk one block further than I had to to get the train this morning (46th Street instead of the usual 47th Street. At least the Q74 is running.
I suppose I should be grateful. I would have gone all day without realizing that it's a holiday had the S/A at Kings Highway not reminded me.
To quote someone behind me the day all the subway lines failed from Queens last month, "We're New Yorkers. We live in shit and we like it."
That has to be one of the best and truest things I've ever heard.
Count Leopold von Sacher-Masoch would have been right at home in New York.
And Peter Rosa is right at home in New York.
-Stef
My views on S/A's and part-time entrances are no secret. With MetroCards as the only accepted form of payment on the subway and various sorts of automation at our disposal, S/A's as they exist today are obsolete. Security is better offered by the police, MetroCards are more efficiently sold by machines and out-of-system stores and newsstands, and information is better given by an offsite customer service agent (who might be equipped to answer some of the questions that S/A's have to guess at, and who can field questions from stations around the system).
With the advent of the HEET, there is absolutely no reason that a locked gate should ever separate a point on the platform from an adjacent point on the street.
Perhaps I wouldn't be so bitter over this issue if the S/A's responsible for opening the part-time entrance at my home station would actually do their jobs on time. The entrance is scheduled to open at 6:30am. On a good day, someone will have just begun to open the bottom gate when 6:30 rolls around. I have never actually witnessed that entrance open and ready to serve customers at 6:30. Do a few minutes really make such a difference? Yes, they do. A train almost always shows up between 6:30 and whenever the entrance is fully opened, and if I miss that train, I miss my connection to the Q at Times Square and risk being late to work. Unlike some, I don't like to get to work late, and I especially don't like getting to work late specifically because an S/A didn't bother to show up on time.
Sometimes things are beyond our control. You don't know the reason for the Clerk being late, deal with it.
Would you like to fill in the blank? I got one...
The Station Agent was late because....He did it with malicious intent and inconveniened a customer who could have just walked to a full time booth one block away. Quite petty.
-Stef
This is always a BAD argument.
What if this same statement was used as a response to: "I always have to struggle to avoid being late because of those slow els, when will they open that new IRT subway?"
Piglet is quite intelligent.
-Stef
If this were a one-time thing, I'd chalk it up to "something happened." But this isn't a one-time deal. This happens every single morning. I have been by that entrance dozens of times at 6:30am since September, and not once have I seen it open then.
Maybe to you, showing up to work two minutes late every day is petty. To me it's theft. I'm paying someone to be manning that entrance starting at 6:30am and not a second later.
It's not one block. It's two blocks (the transfer at Times Square is at the north end), on a bad knee, often in the rain (okay, not the second block, unless the leak is particularly bad), all to get across a locked gate that shouldn't be locked in the first place.
As I said, it's just more fuel for the fire. There's no reason for that entrance to be locked, ever. I can swipe my MetroCard without being watched, thank you very much.
-Stef
I have to agree with David on this one. Commuters expect their stations to be open on time and for the vehicles to be on time. And while you transit workers may have an occasional need that arises causing something to be late, when it gets to be every day, you are just making your customers unhappy which is almost always a bad business strategy.
This is in response to your recent e-mail to MTA New York City Transit regarding the hours of operation of the station entrances at the 86th Street station.
We sincerely apologize for the incident that you describe as having occurred while using our subway system. Please be aware that the hours of operation of our station entrances are based on customer demand. As such, station personnel are expected to adhere to the posted hours of operation of all station entrances. Therefore, in response to your concerns, we have forwarded your e-mail to supervision in our Division of Stations for review and investigation. Be assured that supervision will closely monitor operations at the 86th Street station and take the appropriate measures to prevent any recurrence of this incident.
If you have any further station-related questions or concerns, you may contact our Division of Stations directly at (718) 243-3222, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, or write to the Division of Stations at 370 Jay Street, Room 427, Brooklyn, NY 11201.
We take the concerns of our customers very seriously and thank you for having taken the time to bring this matter to our attention.
Has anything actually been happening? Not that I'm aware of, but, to be honest, it was around the date of this email that I started trying to leave ten minutes earlier, since I was finding the B1 unmanageable even at 7:30. (That's no longer an issue for me, since the B1 quickly became unmanageable even at 7:20, and afternoons weren't much better, so I've found myself an alternative -- and I don't mean the B49. Now I can actually leave later than before, and I'm going to risk leaving home as late as 6:35 and catching the first diamond-Q of the morning, even if it leaves me with less time to write lecture notes.)
I cringe with fear! I have to realize the customer is always right (not).
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but given the controversy surrounding the future role of the S/A it probably would be best for you - and other S/A's - to be as customer-friendly as possible. Simply put, S/A's need all the allies they can get.
No matter how customer friendly we may be, we still won't win everyone over to our cause.
When money talks, it is the prevailing factor. Cost cutting measures are implemented, booths disappear as a result. The issue remains, what do you do with the people who can no longer work those jobs?
It's part of my job to provide the best customer service possible, and I do so when I work in the booth. Over time, my experiences in the booth shaped my philosophy. I don't mind working with the customers, but it is one of the most difficult things that I've had to endure.
Believe me when I tell you, I take my job seriously.
-Stef
BUT if the clerk did something purposefully wrong, that person will pay the piper like everyone else. That's about as much that I will agree with. The Supervisor who is doing the investigation will be asking for a statement from the parties involved with opening the booth.
I know much about the booth. The person who has to man the booth comes off of giving 30 minute lunches for half of his tour before opening that booth.
-Stef
No offense intended, David ... but if what I suspect is the cause *IS* the cause, you can chalk it up to "be here at X" and you get to your "location" when the TRAIN does ... less trains, greater chance of a "late report" ... schedule is the schedule, "beat the clock or else file a G2" ... finiling a G2 isn't the smartest thing some people can do.
Any TWU folks wanna chide in?
I'm not perfect and I do make mistakes, I guess I took things to heart with the anti-S/A rhetoric. I don't have anything personal with Mr Greenberger. If anything, I like the guy.
But I will always walk that fine line in life. I'll have my friends on my side and my enemies against me. That is the reality of the matter.
One thing is for sure: I will always stand up for what I believe in.
-Stef
I'm still skeptical -- he certainly doesn't seem to be in much of a hurry when he opens the gate. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If the assigned S/A can't open the gate on schedule, perhaps a different S/A should be assigned for the task. Or, to sidestep the issue entirely and provide better off-peak service, take out the booth (which, as you know, takes up a lot of space in that cramped entrance) and the three turnstiles and put in three HEETs.
Unfortunately, most of my recent experiences with S/A's have been unpleasant. There was the time I found the men's room at Union Square locked, so I exited fare control to ask the S/A if I could use a restroom outside the station and be readmitted for free, and she wasn't even willing to readmit me right then until the growing line behind me applied pressure. There was the time the S/A shouted at a passenger who asked for a block ticket that "there's nothing wrong with the trains" (even though none had gone by for a half hour, at 9:30 on a weekday morning on a line with scheduled 5-minute headways, if not better). There was the time an S/A at Times Square insisted that the trains were running, even though a flood at 79th had suspended all northbound service during the afternoon rush and three trains had just discharged downstairs. When I pointed out that the passageway to 8th Avenue was backed up past the top of the escalator, he told me to call the police. Only when the C/R of one of the discharged trains came upstairs to set him straight did he pick up the phone and ask for authorization to distribute block tickets. And there was the Sunday morning that the G wasn't running due to a stalled train. The S/A made a single announcement, but didn't have anyone tape off the platforms. Ten minutes (and three L trains) later, the platforms were full, and she insisted that she didn't need to make another announcement, because she had already made one and she had written a note on the whiteboard.
Maybe it's just my luck, but I seem to encounter the S/A's who are neither polite nor helpful.
Yesterday was an exception -- I encountered an S/A who wasn't helpful but was at least polite. She confirmed that the credit card reader on the one and only MVM wasn't working, and that the one and only MEM was out of cards, so the only way to buy a 30-day unlimited was to stuff the MVM with bills. I guess it wasn't in her power to fix the problem. But that's the issue -- S/A's aren't properly equipped to solve most problems or even to provide basic information. The entire system needs to be revamped.
Look at my posts -- I am certainly not one to keep unpopular opinions to myself. (I'm actually startled at how many posters replied to express agreement.) I'm glad you do the same.
Again, I apologize for assuming the worst of the S/A.
Now, let's go out and get some cool pictures!!!!
Cheers,
Stef
(No, I shouldn't have been there at 6:42. Monday mornings the subway's always hung over from the weekend GO's. I got to the station at 6:33 and there was already a crowd waiting, and this is on a line that's supposed to be on 8-minute headways that time of day. Good thing the Q was a few minutes late.)
The station manager got a phone call at 6:39. I'm not pointing fingers -- I'm just hoping that someone, somewhere, is able to solve the problem.
I didn't know the MTA celebrated them all. ;)
I agree with this post :-)
I wouldn't be so sure it would keep the Clerks from whining, it would just keep the Customers from calling up to complain.
-Stef
Union Square is of course not an ideal example because there are two 24 hour entrances, so it;s never a ridiculous walk to get to an open entrance.
Like many others, I missed a train today because I had to walk to the far end of the station instead of the near end at Lorimer. And the closed entrance has HEETs - they were just barred off!
I did (of course, it's Tuesday, so I'm off anyway);
My daughter did (and her being home from school implies that public school teachers, principals, para-professionals, custodians, etc were also off);
My mailman did - along with all the other mail carriers.
These are just the ones I encountered; I could make the list longer, but you get the idea 8-)
It would've been a better use of the MTA's money to pay someone to open up that part-time booth and the associated turnstiles so that people could get in where they wanted to.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The somewhat lighter than usual passenger load on the LIRR made it worthwhile. I had the ideal seatmate on both my morning and afternoon trains - an empty seat :)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Those who are found to post during the moment clearly don't respect our Nation's war heros.
Mark
BTW, I thought you were in physical posession of the servers, has that changed or do you sync your time off your provider's time?
Mark
[For the uninitiated, that's a cesium beam primary reference, dual rubidium backups, with a GPS teritary.]
BTW, what ever happened to Brighton?
Correct time is just about free from the net. My humble PCs at home are synced to the second!
John
There was a special order that trains should operate at no more than half power when the minute was up, to avoid too big a surge on the power system.
Here's the press release:
TTC vehicles 'Stop and Stay' for two minutes to honour Canada's veterans
TORONTO, Nov. 10 /CNW/ - The TTC will join in honouring the nation's
veterans this Tuesday, November 11th, by bringing all of its vehicles to a
halt at 11:00 a.m.
The following announcement will be made immediately before the two-minute
pause:
"Attention TTC Customers, the Toronto Transit Commission will
observe a two minute 'Stop and Stay' to pause and reflect
on the sacrifices for peace made by Canadians during this
past century".
Subway and SRT cars will be held at station platforms. Bus and streetcar
drivers will stop their vehicles at a regular service stop just prior to 11:00
a.m. and remain there during the Stop and Stay. Wheel-Trans operators will
bring their vehicles to a stop at a safe location.
Service will resume at normal levels immediately following the
observation of the two minutes of silence.
For further information: Marilyn Bolton, Media Relations,
(416) 393-3741
-Robert King
But they make no reference whatever to the Armistace as the reason that the date 11/11 and the time 11 am is chosen?
-Robert king
Mark
How?
The Veterans needs to find their own day.
Why? They barely have one now.
Memorial Day honors war dead.
Veterans Day now honors veterans, who by definition are not war dead. I give credit to those who prevented Veterans Day from remaining another Monday holiday and restoring it to November 11. Of course, the result was that the holiday is marginalized--just like veterans. Gee, life imitates art!
Armed Forces Day honors current military.
BTW, if you insist on calling Veterans Day "Armistice Day" then you should call Memorial Day "Decoration Day."
Decoration Day it is!!!
I forget, did the casefire take place at 11:00 or 11:11 or even 11:11:11.
Japan used chemical weapons against China in the early years of World War II. One might consider Japan a Western nation in a technological sense, if not geographical.
Napalm is jellied gasoline, basically a firebomb. It is not classified as a chemical agent, so that is not a valid example.
However, your point about Agent Orange is good. Unlike chemical agents primarily intended for use against people or animals, Agent Orange is a defoliant, foir use against plants. However, soldiers were inadvertently exposed to it.
I am from out of state, but a continual NYC visitor and I am now in
the pleasant position of having to consider a job in NYC, well, in
Newark. I would like to live in Brooklyn. Perhaps off the first
stop off of the L train.
I am trying to get a good idea of my commute time. I'm thinking of
taking the L to the Q to the PATH to the Newark stop, the job is 2
blocks away from there.
What would my commute time be? Does anyone have any advice or
anything that would help me out in this?
Thank you all!
Don't you think you'd be better off living in Hoboken or Jersey City?
Wow, this looks like great news. Thanks for the help, the total commute shouldn't be more than 40 mins this way.
Brad
Brad
If you are in a hurry and don't mind paying more, Penn Station-NY to Penn Station Newark is a non-stop trip by NJ Transit commuter rail. You can get to Penn Station NY by the IRT 1,2,3 or IND A,C,E trains; the IND 6th Av lines will let you off a block east of Penn.
Hard to believe you can make it in less than an hour even if you are right at Bedford Ave.
5 minutes walk to the L, if not more.
5 minutes wait for the L.
12 mins to 6th Ave. from Bedford.
3 mins to transfer - it's not really convenient.
5 mins wait for the Journal Sq train (Hoboken won't do).
33 mins to Nwk according to another poster (IF all goes well).
As mambomta pointed out, there's no reason to take the Q; just grab PATH at 14th/6th. But you'd have to take two PATH trains, one to Journal Square or Grove Street, then change for the train to Newark. It wouldn't be much fun.
According to the current PATH schedule, travel time from 14th/6th to Newark during morning rush hour is 33 minutes during morning rush hour. Add another 15 minutes or so for the L and the transfer, and you're looking at 48 minutes plus walking time on either end, and the hassles of a three-train commute.
Consider living in New Jersey, or in New York somewhere with easy access to the WTC site (from which trains will travel directly to Newark). Many parts of Brooklyn would be more convenient than Williamsburg.
I've always assumed that any future connection to 6th would be via an extension of the Flushing mezzanine, but this is another possibility.
The railfans will have to take a back seat to this. In case if you haven't read the article, passenger flow is a concern at this station. Also a blind curve for the C/R to view all doors.
Track #4 will be abandoned. Seems the track bed area may be where the platform will be expanded, that's my guess. The Times Square shuttle platform was always some sort of after thought. Unchanged since 1918.
But this is 2003, the shuttle platforms are long overdue for a serious rehab. Since the original layout will be changed, I'm sure with the magic of retro tile work, the original look of the station will be retained.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's what the CCTV is for.
No it isn't.
Every train has a T/O and C/R, one at each end. They reverse roles when heading in the opposite direction.
By the way, I've been waiting for the 7 a lot at GCT lately, and quite a few people get off the Flushing-bound 7 there as it is.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well if this happens then that means the Times Square and 5th Avenue stations on the 7 would technically be in the same station, which would be a huge waste.
4 times? Last time I was there it seemed like it stopped 3 times.
Koi
E at WTC would be connected to N/R, 1/9 Cortlandt station. N/R, 1/9 would be connevted to Fulton St station.
That means A/C Chambers and A/C B'way-Nassau would be in the same station.
Would make that part of the GC renovation a waste though, but for it to happen at GC would be kind of ironic.
I presume they want to eliminate the curve in the station by moving the station 250 feet east. However, the support pillars for a local station are in the way for making easy entrance and exit. So, unless they are also planning to remove the existing support pillars and support the roof from the middle of an existing trackway, the result will be a kludge. Of course, the structural work would mean BIG BUCKS.
How many passengers are involved? What would be the savings? Why the priority now?
OTOH, if they want a deomonstration project, let me propose one. Place platform doors on the new Times Sq and existing Grand Central platforms and operate the shuttle as ZPTO. Not that many jobs would be lost and they could be reassigned to providing more Lex Ave service.
I am always amazed at how clever you pretend to be about TA engineering.
Pilars are one way to support a station roof. High-tension steel cables run through concrete are another way (for example, look at work done on the Vine Street Expressway by PennDOT in Philadelphia. An arch is yet another.
Do you know what the TA is going to do (obviously not)? Why not find out?
Uhm, what did he say that involved anything about engineering? Anyone with eyes can see that the support columns are very close together, and not meant to have passengers walking though them, as they were supposed to be in between two tracks, not on a platform. They are obstructive.
All he was stating is that unless they remove the hodgepodge of pillars/columns, and support the ceiling a different way, the resulting station will be a kludge, which is true.
His post was meant to be derogatory of present TA planning and construction practices. I'm sorry you missed that. You took his statement at innocent face value, which missed his point entirely.
I have to agree with his point completely. Changing the structural composition of the station will not only be incredibly expensive, at a time when money is scarce and proposed projects are numerous, it will also be disruptive to passengers using the shuttle. To avoid the construction mess, people will learn to use the 7 instead (and they will certainly be forced to during numerous GOs); they will possibly continue using the 7 after the shuttle project is complete. IMO, the 7 has enough capacity between Times Square and Grand Central that the shuttle could just be abandoned entirely.
That may be so, but Stephen's point went far beyond that.
"To avoid the construction mess, people will learn to use the 7 instead (and they will certainly be forced to during numerous GOs); they will possibly continue using the 7 after the shuttle project is complete. "
Perhaps. I believe the 7 is too deep to be very convenient as a shuttle replacement for that ridership to be sustained.
"IMO, the 7 has enough capacity between Times Square and Grand Central that the shuttle could just be abandoned entirely."
I believe that is not the case (meaning, the 7 cannot entirely replace the Shuttle).
However, perhaps you are correct today. The 7's upcoming extension to Javits will increase ridership along the Shuttle's portion of the geography, so the spare capacity you're relying on will be claimed by the additional passengers the 7 brings aboard. Will the ntire spare capacity be claimed? I don't know.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you have it backwards:
Seeing that the 7 and the shuttle run parallel to each other, the increase in passengers from Javits will be on the 7 alone, as there is no reasonable excuse someone would have to get off the 7 at let's say Times Square, and take the shuttle to Grand Central, when they just could have stayed on the 7 to begin with. However, if the 7 does get busier because of the extension, you won't want ex-42nd Street shuttle passengers making the 7 busier than it already is.
Write the TA and tell 'em what you think.
Let me paraphrase one of your Kansas City politicians: I don't give'em hell - all I do is tell the truth.
I had two objections to the TA's plan for capital expenses: it did not save money and it did not increase passenger capacity.
The total savings would be requiring two fewer T/O's because only two trains would remain. All three trains operate for only 5 1/2 hours 5 days a week. That comes to 2860 man-hours per year. That comes to a burdened savings of approximately $150,000 per year. So, paying just the interest cost out of operating savings @ 5% per year should cap the entire project cost at $3 million. That's a factor of 10-20 off, if structural changes are involved. Clearly, this capital project cannot be justified on the basis of cost savings. Remember, interest payments come out of the fare box.
What about reducing the number of trains from 3 to 2? You might recall that the shuttle originally opened with two 5-car trains. This proved so inadequate to the task that this configuration did not last one week. The existing kludge is the solution that the IRT implemented in 2 week's time. It lasted without serious modification until 1964. The only thing the TA did was to cast it in concrete. So, this capital project also flunks the increased revenue through increased passenger criterion.
And like a Kansas City politician, what you actually do is tell your opinion and pretend it's the truth.
240
161
249
280
All eight cars were overhauled along with the rest of the R-44 fleet in the early 1990s.
David
VC Madman
Unless you had a key to the panel, or if you're lucky enough to find one that flings open when the train starts (or stops if you're in the back of the train).
VC Madman
wayne
VC Madman
wayne
I've never heard them referred to as "pentagons" before, but I can see why someone might.
What would you call this?
VC Madman
VC Madman
Which would make it......a (9)?!!
N.Y. town has inside track on assembly jobs
Would I be correct in assuming the article is talking about the LIRR/MNR M-7's and the NJT Bi-Levels?
"Oar in the water." Heh. I gotta remember to USE that one. :)
I wonder what the assembly sequence is? How much is handled by machine and how much by hand? Does railcar/component making utilize some of the same robots used in automobile manufacturing?
Newsday story
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr1111,0,5515557.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
It will never change.
It's the LIRR.
- COMMUNICATE EVERYTHING to the passengers
- Try to estimate what will happen next and when
- Try to tell everyone where they have to go (which track)
- Be very polite
So I'm happy with MNRR in emergencies. MNRR C/Rs are also very polite during the long, boring, repetitive days. And I don't think this is because they hire angels; I think it's because management decided this was how it was going to be and then decided not to screw the employees over later for sticking to it. So, is something different at LIRR?
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Viet-nam Era Vet
Sergeant, United States Air Force
SO it is with tears of pride pouring down my cheek I say the following:
God Bless every American who shed thier blood to keep us free!!!!!!
God bless every Americanwho is currently fighting at this moment in order to preserve our freedom!!!!!!
And to each and every Veteran out there who reads this,whether you are dead or alive,You will NEVER EVER BE FORGOTTEN!!! YOU ARE IN MY HEART FOREVER!!!!!!!!
Andrew Maddis aka arcingcatenary.
Thank you for fighting for our freedom from tyranny and giving us the freedom to speak and write as we wish.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Things will never change here, people have never known how to play nice. Do you understand that?
-Stef
P.S. May we try to swing it ON TOPIC rather than wasting Dave's bandwidth?
Unless we start putting shock devices on the keyboard, that is. Do you recall the James Bond movie where Sean Connery plays a video game and gets a shock when his opponents missiles land on his city?
Regards,
Jimmy
On the other hand, one should always CONFRONT their enemies and bring the hostilities out into the open. If you don't like Jersey Mike's attacks against you (and my support of them), then make that known and don't allow your enemies to ride roughshod over the discussions here.
When you're a little older, you'll understand that.
No, these are just things you say, they aren't true.
You have done much to incur my wrath (and you continue to do so in this post), but you have the NERVE to say that there are no enemies.
No other responder to this thread used their response to personally attack anyone. You did.
CC LOCAL may pollute this board with fluff, but you pollute it with ad hominem attacks. Which is worse?
You are my enemy, you will always be my enemy. Every attempt that I have made to stop fighting you have ignored, every attempt you have made to stop fighting has been hollow and insincere. There is no peace to be made with you just as there is no peace to be made with the Axis, or with terrorists.
I may not always agree with Ron in Kansas City, but I'd scarcely equate him with Nazi Germany or al-Qaeda.
No, the guy is from teh GAY state.
PS. Maybe I'll become politically active if Michael Dukakis runs.
I find his tone sometimes condescending but not really bullying. Actually, the most off-putting thing about Ron in Kansas City is his extreme naiveity, especially when it comes to dealing with New York politicians and bureaucrats. He believes that writing letters to politicians, for example when advocating speedy WTC reconstruction, actually will get things accomplished. What he does not realize that New York is a "democracy" only in the loosest sense of the term, maybe if compared to Shitty Arabia.
That would explain why I actually have gotten some things done. If you haven't (and I'm not saying you haven't), maybe it's not my naivete as much as your refusal to engage the system. Engage it - it's the only one you have.
As to condescension, it's easy to claim condescension when somebody points to an obvious error or pattern. It requires a bit of maturity to know when it isn't condescension. I'm not saying I've never done it, because I have. But certain Subtalkers have used "condescension" as an excuse for immaturity and lack of experience or perspective (neither of which is a crime, by the way).
Ron, with all sincereity, I feel that it is people like you that are contributing to "popular" but wrong decisions that are being made on a daily basis in the politics of any large city. Let's take the latest example of Metra Electric turnstile elimination. The constituency bitched and bitched, and now they are finally removing the turnstiles. What that will mean for Metra Electric is less revenues, and presumably less service in the long run, and a greater reliance on sales tax assessments. What is the right approach there? I don't know. But for sure encouraging fare evasion isn't the right approach, even if it is what the populous believe should be done.
I don't take part in politics, except where it relates to Amtrak. Not because I am afraid that I am wrong, but more because it takes too much analytical power to come to a decision that is rational, and in many cases I do not have the data required to make a smart decision. So I just keep my trap shut and judge the success of a government entity purely based on the results accomplished, and not based on how much they listen to my hare-brained input based on very little actual data.
AEM7
You don't know me at all, so the above comment in nonsensical.
I don't know how "popular" my input has been. I do know that the authorities who received my input found it credible and decided to implement it on its merits. The results have been quite positive.
"Let's take the latest example of Metra Electric turnstile elimination. The constituency bitched and bitched, and now they are finally removing the turnstiles. What that will mean for Metra Electric is less revenues, and presumably less service in the long run, and a greater reliance on sales tax assessments."
Really? Intuitively it would seem so. What % of fare evasion has occurred on LA's Red Line due to lack of turnstiles? What % of fare evasion has occurred on Metra since the policy change, and how does that compare to the LIRR's use of ticket collectors?
I am not saying you haven't considered thosde issues. Maybe you have. Before I submit and advocate for ideas, that's what I do, which feeds back to my credibility with the implementors. I sincerely hope you do the same consistently, else you would be commitrting the sins you accuse others of committing.
A few of those ideas were shaped by the back-and-forth here on Subtalk...
"I don't take part in politics, except where it relates to Amtrak."
That is your choice. It is not mine.
Your input has been by definition popular, since you are a member of the population and you gave input to policymakers based on no quantitative analysis (yes, and I know this because normally the type of data required for rational analysis is not available in the public domain and might not even be collected by the lawmakers).
If you're talking about an expert field (e.g. medicine) for which you have access to the right data, and performed analysis, and wrote in as an expert researcher, my comments do not apply. But for other issues, such as traffic safety, transit ridership, etc., for which neither you nor I are experts in, all our inputs are "popular" inputs since they are not expert inputs.
The result-based approach (i.e. I move to a location where I like the decisions that had already been made about zoning, transportation, safety, etc) is a much better one than trying to change the minds of the monkeyheads in charge in one's locality.
AEM7
False statement. And you know no such thing. Data which is not publicly available is not always required to make rational decisions.
"If you're talking about an expert field (e.g. medicine) for which you have access to the right data, and performed analysis, and wrote in as an expert researcher, my comments do not apply. But for other issues, such as traffic safety, transit ridership, etc., for which neither you nor I are experts in, all our inputs are "popular" inputs since they are not expert inputs"
"The result-based approach (i.e. I move to a location where I like the decisions that had already been made about zoning, transportation, safety, etc) is a much better one than trying to change the minds of the monkeyheads in charge in one's locality"
Ahh, the classic defeatist. Except that I have accumulated experience to disprove your thesis several times over.
This does not automatically make them invalid, and you have not been appointed by anyone to make judgments like that. However, in public trials, judges must make decisions about who is or isn't an expert. But that is specific to that venue.
Defeatist or not, I am happy, and you're running around like a headless chicken trying to effect change, and I bet you 50% of the time you are unsuccessful.
I am sure he does think I spit horseshit. I am also certain I don't care that he thinks that.
"Defeatist or not, I am happy, and you're running around like a headless chicken trying to effect change, and I bet you 50% of the time you are unsuccessful."
I am successful less than 50% of the time, but that's much better than your track record. Still, the important thing is that you are happy, and you do whatever you like to maintain your happiness.
But I am happy too, so you see there is no reason for me to change my philosophy.
Yeah, maybe it's a question of philosophy... some people like to effect change upon their surroundings, and others like to change their surroundings. My girlfriend is definitely like you, she is an activist in some political spheres. On the other hand I'm just a boomer, I go where the rails go.
AEM7
As you like. You are even allowed to do a little of both!
"My girlfriend is definitely like you, she is an activist in some political spheres. On the other hand I'm just a boomer, I go where the rails go."
In other words, you are perfect for each other!
May you long continue to post so I can liberally torture you...
:0)
Toronto Toronto
New York City New York City New York City
Look for another poll soon!
Mark
Mark
Regards,
Jimmy :)
But...
The L is so pleasurable. It is the only way to get an idea of what the Brooklyn system was like before the level crossings were dumped, most of the sharp curves and running at grade. The Loop is magnificent.
New lines have been opened, which include interesting new junctions and routings. Yeah, I wouldn't want to not see New York any more, but I wish we had some more of the kinds of lines Chicago still has.
Then again, I've seen cars on the END of a LIRR train with Neither Head nor Tail Lamps on! Isn't that dangerous, especially at night?
I would think so, esp. if the train is in an unlit area. Signals and communicatio w/control center are supposed to keep trains apart, but it would also be nice if the engineer on the following train could see the end car ahead of him.
Mark
Progress?
Or egress?
Or mention the predecessor companies (IRT, BMT and IND) that now make up the railroad we have all come to love and hate over the last 100 years.
Story:
I arrived at 59th Street/Columbus Circle I was suprised the center platform was open,So while waiting several trains passed by including a set of mixed R-32's with R-38's,Well the train arrived I got the railfan window by guessing right on where the train was stopping,So we heded to Essex Street,going thru the Chrystie Street cut was a great experience,We arrived at Essex and headed for Jamaica Center(Lower),I seen Koi shooting film while sharing the railfan window and exchanging some stories with fellow railfan's.With stops along the way,Broadway Junction was a great photo stop.Well we get to Jamica Center (Lower),In my view that's a hard station to take good shots being it's dark.I was sitting in R-1 Car 100 for the trip out of Jamaica Center(Lower),It was funny they gave us starting lights.Well with stops along the way we headed for lunch,I got off at Myrtle Avenue,I took the M-train up to Meropolitan Avenue,too some pics and heaed to Fresh Pond Road,and had lunch,after I headed to Wycoff Avenue and continued,So going for Jamaica Center (Upper),I looked out the railfan widow of R-1 Car #100,has we headed for the Chrysie Street cut one more time,now going both ways that was even greater,We got to Roosevelt Island and I thought it's funny but these cars never had Revenue service thru the 63rd tunnel.So it was a short stop and we headed for Jamaica Center(Upper).While on the run I sat down in R-1 Car #100 and took a nap,but for a 73 year old car,she sure has speed.In one strech (Roosevelt Avenue to Forrest Hills)I felt the train hit at least hit 60 MPH.
Well we get to Jamaica Center(Upper) and after photo shooting,We headed for Jamaica/Van Wyck and Jamaica Yard,When we got to the yard I thought it was a big yard (Not as big as Coney Island)but big,But it turns out to be a small yard,as we went thru on the loop I'm suprised we didn't take a car wash,lol.So we headed to West 4th Street and the end of the trip.Along the was I saw fellow Subtaker's Koi,Chapter 11 Choo Choo(or Now Choo Choo Chuck maybe), I saw him shooting some Video.and the rest I saw taking a group photo.By that time I was more tired then I was up more than usual thanks to my job and wasn't too talkative,But in all was fun I'm glad I went.I took 2 roll of film and some digital photos about 100 pics.I'll post them as soon as I get them all back,But here are some pics now Enjoy them and catch you all next time! Click Here
You saw me, but I didn't see you. You should have had a name tag on. I would have said hi to you. Oh well.
If you were at the railfan window for the whole trip from Wyckoff to Parsons then I was standing right next to you.
I think I'm going to start offering dollar bills to each SubTalker that wears a name tag and introduces himself to me at the next event. This incognito business is getting ridiculous.
I concur 1000% with you about this incognito stuff.
Being indirectly involved with the hosts of these trips,
will all SubTalkers who did attended the MOD Excursion
on Sunday, November 9th, please chime in. Would like to
get an [un]official count.
Thanks,
8-) ~ Sparky
How did you get off at UT? That wasn't a stop, I don't think.
wayne
I was going to mention how the train flew after you guys got off at Roosevelt Ave (must have been the reduced weight), but Chris R27-R30 already mentioned it.
Incognito
Transportation Photographer
Koi
8-) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
I wore my nametag and was in 1575 for the trip, but do not recall
you stopping to say Howdy! >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
If so, I can not associate a face with the handle. >>GG<<
8-)~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Corona Yard is filled with brand-new R36's and R15's and R17's.
November 2003:
Corona is all filled with R62A's now, and hardly a R36 is in sight.
At least some green stuff has edged in on the corner of the yard. Hopefully this is a sign that nothing too hazardous was spilled there back in the 1950s and 60s. Also in the future hopefully the plants will act as a filter should there be a spill, they'd keep the junk out of the water for the most part.
Besides that the current has a much nicer feel than the older pic. Even accounting for the different picture locations, zooms and cameras, the scene presented in the latter picture is more interesting than the former. Painted cars tend to eat up the sunlight when it hits them, so there's nothing in the way of interesting reflections or anything. The stainless steel R62s certainly light up the picture in a more interesting way than the old painted R12 clones.
Also, there's more variety in the current picture, the R62s may dominate, but I'm assuming those are R33 singles sitting off in the left side. And is that an R127/R134 off to the far left? I know that's just like an R62, but then the entire fleet from R12 to R36 were basically clones off one another, to an extent not seen even between the strikingly similar R62 and R137/134.
One can sit and complain that the storm door might have been different, or how one type had this that the other didn't. I don't care, it was all the same basic body structure for some 25-30 years, don't give me that "all the variety has been sucked from the subways" it was a minor interlude fo shrinking budgets between monotonous periods of swelling budgets and uniform car types. The MTA does not exactly want for money right now, at least not as bad as they did in the 1970s, so get used to the uniform car distributions, it'll be here for a while, hopefully.
I think all sewer workers have lowered their flags to half-staff today. :(
This now means that only Joyce Randolph who played his wife "Trixie" is still alive.
I can just see Ralphie boy driving bus #2629 (the original) in heaven and coming to a stop at an open manhole cover with Norton having lunch trying to eat a foot long hero with his Captain Video helmut on !
Bill"Newkirk"
Regards,
Jimmy
And goodbye, Mr. Carney ...Mr. Norton ... I'll miss you too !
The Essence of Cool
Too bad I couldn't get a photo of the train, but as you can see it was getting quite dark.
Also, there is a freight line by mu uncle's house. I goes under RT4 just pass Queen Anne Rd in North Bergan county.Who owns that line?
(I saw you at the store, brah.... you didn't get the point).. lol :P
"I have what it takes for oven roasting. Dedication. Focus. And Lots of Padding"
-Oven Mitt
(And I'm not even "into" mystical, it's a blast though. He makes me laugh, his stories are fun).
Sometimes I ride the PATH to eat at Arby's.
Also I use the HBLR to go to Dairy Queen.
Wow, that really is hungry.
Das Bus is one of my favorite Simpsons episodes.
It's a STORE brah.
Best wishes to Mr. Rivera and family. May all of you find peace and meaning and happiness in future.
Yes, This is so. My grandmother passed away more than 30 years ago, and while the pain will fade, the momories will blossom and grow.
"You are every age you have ever been." Your past, for good or ill, is always a part of you. A life set in motion does not die, stop or perish, but its ripples its love, stretches out through eternity.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Yes, absolutely. I second that thought.
Best wishes again, Chris. Hang in there, buddy.
If you ever need me, email me at monkmonk438@hotmail.com I kno wut ur goin through.
Rabbi Alvin Fine wrote a poem, more recently set to music by Debbie Friedman, that has helped me through my troubled times:
Birth is a Beginning
Birth is a beginning
And death a destination
And life is a journey;
From childhood to maturity
And youth to age;
From innocence to awareness
And ignorance to knowing;
From foolishness to discretion
And then, perhaps, to wisdom;
From weakness to strength
Or strength to weakness --
And often, back again;
From health to sickness
And back, we pray, to health again;
From offense to forgiveness
From loneliness to love
From joy to gratitude,
From pain to compassion,
And grief to understanding --
From fear to faith;
From defeat to defeat to defeat --
Until, looking backward or ahead,
We see that victory lies
Not at some high place along the way,
But in having made the journey, stage by stage,
A sacred pilgrimage.
Birth is a beginning
And death a destination
And life is a journey,
A sacred pilgrimage --
To life everlasting.
May G-d grant peace to those who mourn, and let us say: Amen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course you are going to be thinking of them alot within the first few weeks or months, you might be thinking of them several times a day. You will notice this even more when you do something that you would normally do with them, or do something when you would need their advice or guidance. And of course, with the holidays coming up, the impact will be felt by them not being with the family.
I felt better about it by not being with my family so much immediately after. It could be because I was with every member of my family every single day for a entire month between the two deaths and holidays, but I felt that being with them depressed me more. I made it a point to get back to my normal routine as soon as the funerals were over, which I felt was alot better than sitting around at home feeling bad.
My advice to you is, well, I dont have any. You really have to do what you feel. If you think you should be with family members, specifically your grandfather, if he is still alive, or your parent whos mother she was, then do that. That is a great thing to do for your mother or father, especially if you are an only child or your parent was very close to her.
But dont worry, you will always remember her. It might be little stupid things to someone else, but it will remind you of her. She will always live on in your heart.
Good Luck
Chris
The pain of your loss is going to hurt in the beginning, but will slowly subside.. This may bring you and your family closer together, and that's good.
Try not to become depressed over your loss, but always remember that she loved you and is probably watching over you and your family.
Warmest regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
To be honest I never had the pain of loosing a loved one so I have difficulties relating to that, but try to remember the good times you had with your grandmother, and don't focus on her passing.
Like I said, I never had to experience the pain you're going through, but I can say that you are a good man with a lot of virtue, I know that you'll persevere from this and you'll come out a better person.
Be supportive of your family and take their support as well. Talk about your feelings and feel your grief; you will get through this.
It will take some time to really absorb this. As you do, the vision of your beloved grandma will shine through as she was when she was still with you, and it will warm your life.
The passing of a loved one is NEVER a pleasant experience.
Know that she is in a better place, and be grateful for all that you
shared together in health and life. There is never suffice
a reason to explain why 1 must go...
Hold strong to your good memories and remembering your grandma in
a POSITIVE light and way, could be the best advice 1 can give...
Take comfort in knowing there are friends here who know how you're feeling
and are here when you need us.
Mejores pensamientos y abrazos fuerte a tu y tu familia esta hora.
CF
With sympathy and prayers,
Jimmy
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I know she will be dearly missed. Just remember that she will always be there in spirit if not in body.
Koi
Michael
Washington, DC
My grandmother passed away when I was 28, and my biggest regret was that she never saw me play in a concert. I think about her whenever I have a concert now.
I'm also among the lucky ones here to have not suffered a loss of someone so close to me. I wish I had the wisdom or words to help you through this loss.
From day 1 on this board, you've been a class act -- something I'm sure carries over to the rest of your life. I know that your grandmother must have been very proud of you, and I'm sure that you brought great joy to her life.
CG
Please advise on this board on the funeral arrangements and I will make it my business to be there for you Chris on the evening session.
And for anyone else in the NY area too, show our support for a Subtalker in need, he is family and we love him and his humor and tenancity. Attend the wake if you can, If not, send a card via. email
VC Madman
Lemme just say this...you may be very distraught that your grandmother passed away right before your eyes in such a short time, and you may feel like you cannot live on, but let me say this: you must try, and I mean try, to live on, live your life, even if it means that you don't do what you usually do on a normal basis...but always remembering where you came from and remembering your grandmother for what she has meant to you in your life...I would advise you to take some time off from school and from your usual daily activities, which may including railfanning or any sort...take some time to reflect and reminisce, to mourn and to remember, to cherish what you DO have and not let what you have lost consume you entirely...or else you will NEVER be able to go on with your life...remembering a lost loved one is important, but your life ahead of you is crucial, because if you don't eventually live on, the rest of your whole life will be consumed by thinking about those who have "crossed over" and it will claim your life as well...I may not have had someone close to me pass away, but i've known distant family members, my grandfather and one of my aunts, pass away in the past 10 years...and I actually have had met my grandfather before he passed away three years ago...
Hey, Chris, just know that I offer my absolute deepest condolences to you and your family...please don't take my comments above as cold-hearted, if you take it that way, just know that I didn't intend to make you evoke those thoughts, I just want you to know that a death in the family should be remembered but it shouldn't consume you...that's all I am saying, please don't take it the wrong way...
Carlton
Incognito
Look how her grandson turned out!! :c)
1ChrisRivera9
Your grandmother would want you to remember that going on with architecture school and being thoughtful toward other people -- just putting one step in front of the other -- matters more to her than anything else in the world.
My best to you and your family,
Doug
Elias
Best Prayers for Christopher and Family.
Elias
Wer im Gedchtnis seiner Lieben lebt, der ist nicht tot, der ist nur fern; tot ist nur, wer vergessen wird (Immanueal Kant)
(free) translation by me:
Who lives in the memory of their friends/family isn't dead, he/she's
only far away; dead is only, who is forgotten.
I hope it's clear,what is meant.
I AM CORNHOLIO! I NEED TTTP FOR MY AIRPORT!
Also, I like the current station stop list. I think however, a stop should be made at Rockaway BLVD, Franklin Av, and MAYBE an extension to the GWB bus terminal. Otherwise, this is gonna be great! I was actually recently studying a new plane to train line. I think I have it posted on my website:
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
It'll go over the Manhattan Bridge I guess, rite?
I think it should keep this current routing(with just the first 2 stops mentioned in my original post). However, instead of terminating at Columbus Circle, I say it circles midtown. After Rockefeller Center(47th-50th sts), it continues on to 5th Av. Stops there, then follows the E to PABT, then NYP, then 14th St. From there, to W4th st and back onto the F trains tracks. A new switch or 2 would be needed, but thats really all. I think that'd be better.
Also, this opens the future possiblity of it later continuing onto the airtrain tracks and around the airport.
There's the snag. It'll just get stuck behind a regular A train. The good news is it'll add to the total tph going to JFK. 4 regular As plus 4 of these would be enough to make the wait reasonably low.
I can't wait to see how it goes from 47-50 to 5av and then to 42nd PABT.
The (J) stays on Jamaica Avenue all the way to Bway ENY.
The (Z)??? stays on Fulton Street past Cressent to Rockaway Blvd, thence on to the old LIRR ROW to pickup all traffic to the Rockaways.
That would require AIRPORT service to run via the Jamaica Broadway line.
It would run express, but with the ower traffic on that line should not run into as many slow trains in front of it.
from there it would switch to Houston Street (local Tracks) and thence onto Eighth Avenue and terminate up at 168th Street. So Call the TTTP the (C) train, and you are all set.
The (E) Becomes the Fulton Street Local to Euclid, and the (V) becomes the 6th Avenue Local, switching to 8th Ave south of W4th Street and Terminating at WTC.
Elias
Well-Known "Non"-Connections
Not without some infrastructure changes (a connecting tunnel).
The consist was 3 R46 cars, if I recall right.
wayne
R-32.
The Local Tracks can do this (with a flying crossover), The express tracks cannot.
Elias
Didn't the old TTTP use the Manhattan bridge?
WHERE is said picture????
It is more likely that it was an out of service train being returned to the CI yard.
Elias
NOT
There is no way to make that connection work. Trains Arriving at 7th Avenue are on one level and are headed to Uptown or to Queens.
Trains on the other level are headed to 8th Avenue or to 6th Avenue.
There is no way a train can loop from 6th to 8th via 53rd Street.
Elias
The TTTP must use the Fulton tracks. The Manhattan Bridge DOES NOT, NEVER HAS, and NEVER WILL feed into the Fulton Line.
Additionally, at no point ever can a train loop through manhattan on 6th av and 8th av.
Where do you live?
That's a good reason all by itself for people to be pissed at you! You've committed an unforgivable act.
:0)
R-32.
Toward the end of JFK Express operation, the R-46s were replaced by four-car trains of R-44s.
David
R-32.
The FULTON STREET Subway goes to the airport.
Fulton Street (and the Airport) is served by the CRANBERRY Tunnel.
Smith Street (and the Culever) is served by the RUTGERS Tunnel.
There *are* switches in the vicinity of Jay Street, but using them tends to tie up the railroad during peek hours.
The Rutgers Tunnel trains serve the LOCAL TRACKS on 6th Avenue.
The Cranberry Tunnel serves both local and express tracks on 8th Ave.
Local Trains have a flying crossover SOUTH of WEST 4th STREET.
For a North Terminal, the Lower Level of 42nd Street used to be used (IIRC), then later the 57th Street 6th Avenue Station was used for a short time, but can not be used now because it has become a thru station with the opening of the 63rd Street Tunnel.
As for me and my two cents, I'd make the (C) train the train to the plane, and I'd extend it beyond 168th Street to a new terminal at 179th Street and Broadway to serve the GeoWash Bus Terminal. All that takes is to extend the 174th Street Yards a bit. And you do not really loose much yard space because you can build more yard when you build the station, and because the station would iteslf replace the two tracks that it extended.
Looking at the track diagrams, it does not appear convientet to make this an Express service. so it needs to be LOCAL on 8th Ave to at least 59th Street. Then it could go express if the (E) was making those local stops. This would also allow the local to terminate at WTC without having to have the (C) cross in front of the (A).
The only change I'd make on Fulton Street would be to make the (A) LOCAL to Lefferts, and the (C) Express to the Airport and to the Rockaways.
So passengers getting on local on Fulton Street will be on the Express in Manhattan, while people getting an express ride on Fulton Street will find themselves on a Local once they are past 59th Street.
And According to me, *that* works out very well!
Elias
Elias
Of course, if it were made compatible and a track connection were in place, they could have run the Airtrain itself to Columbus Circle during non-rush hours.
Will the A train be diverted onto local tracks at certain times, or has that detail not been discussed.
Also, I don't like the idea of terminating at columbus circle. I think after 47th-50th sts(Rockefeller Center), it should go to 5th Av, and then join the E and stop at 42nd St/PABT, 34th St/NYP, 14th st, and the W4th st, where it would join the F tracks and return to JFK
R-32.
I have read of this with much amusement.
IINM, From the 7th Avenue Station, one level goes to Both 6th and 8th Avenues, and the other level goes to both Uptown and to Queens.
So it would NOT be just a matter of switching tracks (switches that are not there) but also of switching levels. (Or am I mistaken about this?)
In any event, I was looking at (C) service via the Williamsburg Bridge and Broadway and fo a Northern Terminal, I'd extend the (C) beyond 168th Street, trhough the 174th St Yard to a new station at 179th Street and Broadway (Ie The GeoWashBus Terminal)
Thus two trains would serve the Airpot...
(Z) Local to Nassau Street and the bigwigmuckkymucks (THAT will get the Chambers Street Station cleaned up, eh?)
and the (C) Express to 8th Avenue, then Local to GeoWash.
Yeah... Lots of Construction... but what the heck, the Subway needs lots of construction anyway.
Elias
R-32.
Keying a door open, opens that one leaf or door, as opposed to the conductor opening the whole train line.
Crew can thus board the train without opening the train to the geese.
Likewise, a train with a special fare, can open one or two doors to allow selected gooses in.
: ) Elias
I'm startin to think that TTTP will not work, and they should just run the A to howard beach and the rockaways more frequently to provide adequate airport service, rather then screw everything up.
Also, along with this, LIRR should open 2 or 3 lines.
1. Howard Beach-Woodhaven-East New York-Nostrand Av-Flatbush Av(least frequently)
2. Howard Beach-Woodhaven-(then all the old rockaway beach stops of the LIRR)-Rego Park-Woodside-GCT or Sunnyside-NYP(most frequently)
3. Howard Beach-Woodhaven-Jamaica-Queens Village-Floral Park-then either:
-Stewart Manor-Garden City-Hempstead
or
-New Hyde Park-Mineola-Hempstead
(moderately frequent)
VC Madman
:0)
Decides to omit other fruit-related jokes
LIRR is interested in moving commuters from Long Island to the heart of New York City. Given that passengers will have to take the AirTrain in either event, they may as well take it to Jamaica Station and get all of the options that the LIRR has to offer, save of course the Port Washington Line, which doesn't go anywhere ;)- anyway.
Elias
This passageway should be reopened. In order to assuage crime concerns, it should include shops and the like.
You are thinking of the 33rd Street passageway between 6th and 7th Avenues.
The 33rd Street passageway is on private property and is not owned by the city or the TA.
Elias
When the passageway was open, the only entrances were from the Herald Square complex, and at 35th, 38th and 40th Streets. It's only reason for being was to mollify merchants at 38th Street who lost their elevated station. The only people who used it were people who wanted to get to 38th Street when it was raining, or the rare individual who was walking from the Penn Station/Herald Square area up to 40th Street, also when raining.
Merchants can't survive on traffic that only exists when it rains.
Penn Station used to have a handy exit from the LIRR level in the middle of the station to 33rd Street, which a lot of people used to get to 34th Street and the 'hound depot. When MSG was built, the bright lights who redesigned the LIRR level forced people to go through a shop-lined maze to get out of the station at mid-block. Everyone went to 7th & 8th Avenues instead and all the shops failed.
I can't quite picture where that corridor would be in Penn Station. Can you elaborate?
The old passageway went up stairs directly to (IIRC) the north side of 33rd Street, which is also where the Greyhound Depot was.
The new passagway (which AFAIK is still there) is entered by doorways in about the same place, which lead you first through basement stores, then you have to turn right (another corridor of stores and right again to take you to escalators which lead you into a building lobby where you can finally escape to the street.
Okay, I know where you mean. Thanks.
What we're discussing is entirely different. It was a direct connection from the LIRR concouurse which runs from 7th and 8th. At mid-block, from the north side of that corridor was a direct exit under 33rd Street at midblock surfacing on the north side of 33rd between 7th and 8th. At that point you faced the old Greyhound Depot, which was midblock between 7th and 8th, and extended from 33rd to 34th.
Gone about the same time old Penn Station was.
Speaking of intermediate periods, what stood on the old MSG site before Worldwide Plaza was built in 1987? Period articles don't give enough info.
The Greyhound Depot became obsolete in December 1950.
One Penn Plaza was built after the Mutt Depot left. The former site is probably part of the 1PP property.
The Greyhound Depot became obsolete in December 1950.
Not at all. Greyhound liked its own depot, and only moved to Port Authority (early '60s, IIRC) when forced to do so by a City ordinance which banned bus depots east of 8th Avenue. Cute city tricks.
Greyhound *still* has its own depot north and west of the PABT.
That is where you go to ship or receive Greyhound Bus Freight.
They also need a place to store and service busses that are not in service and a place for their crew and administrative offices.
Almost all of the other bus companines have their facilities at the distal ends of their routes. Greyhound as a long distance carrier needs a local office. Martz Bus does not.
Elias
Nothing stood on that site after MSG was torn down. It served as a parking lot for many years.
Peace,
ANDEE
I used to walk that tunnel everytime it was raining or cold. Trust me, there was a hell of alot more than the rare individual who walked that entire tunnel, especially during the rush hours during the rain, snow or cold.
I think it should be open, but during rush hours only when you would have heavy pedestrian traffic.
As for retail, space is very expensive in Manhattan. One type of commerce that can function without foot traffic is destination-type commerce. Eating and drinking places, barber shops, entertainment. Places that people will find out about by word of mouth and seek out.
Whatever happened to that IRT bar idea anyway?
Also, what I lot of people on this board are forgetting is the loads of people coming in from NJ via the PATH trains at 33rd & 6th that ALSO used that walkway.
Many people walk along 6th Avenue, and a pedestrian tunnel would make their walk more plesant and without having to cross traffic.
Yes Merchants would work, but they would have to be the same merchants that are also on the street level (more or less), otherwise it can be made into a mall, and the merchants themselves would be the draw to the passageway.
Elias
I think it could work, but it would take the efforts of the adjacent building owners, so that the TA would not have to spend any money, but could collect the rents.
Elias
Since there was no known source for purchasing replacements, the ones you see or have seen in Sundays MOD trip were salvaged from a LIRR ping-pong coach that was sitting near Coney island yard awaiting scrapping.
Yes, MP-54's found there way down the Bay Ridge branch, took a switch at Parkville Jct and were pulled by diesel down McDonald Ave. That's how they got there. Old photos on this site have BMT Standards and MP-54's cut up and piled up. Double sad sight !
I noticed one original PCC style lense in #484.
Bill "Newkirk"
More than likely no. The microphone by the door triggers is probably covered with paint. The PA amp may have been removed years ago when the experiment failed.
Bill "Newkirk"
"When R-4 #484 was chosen as musuem car years ago..."
Do you know how many years ago it was that 484 was designated as a museum car?
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Don't know for sure. Possibly around 1970.
Bill "Newkirk"
The bullseye lenses Bill Newkirk mentions were only in the rebuilt LIRR cars -- the originals had floral-looking lenses or nothing at all until the mid-1950's rehab program on many of LIRR's cars. (I think there were a total of 750 cars done....)
I particularly enjoyed that car's interior treatment. I saw a car in the London Transport museum with similar ambient light - #11182, the 1938 Tube Stock car. Also the green paint was particularly soothing. Kind of reminded me of my old high school.
wayne
Webshots MOD photos
8-) ~ Sparky
We took pictures from the crossing, one east, one west. After that, we walked along a pathway to a parking lot(I aint walkin a track that has 3rd rail on it). We took 2 pictures from the lil crossing linking the 2 parking lots. I take it the end of block sign is where the LIRR crossing station would've been, as we were able to trace the Mineola-CLP ROW to that very point.
We then walked to Washington Av crossing and took pictures there. That's where we started walkin on the track b/c the 3rd rail ends just before there. We took a picture of the switch just before the Clinton Rd station. We both threw the switch(dw, in the end, we had it back in its original position), pretty easy.
We got to the Clinton Rd station(GCFDP). Took some pics of the building and the platforms. We then continued on. They moved those freight cars they used to have to a few hundread feet back. I climbed up on a few and got some pics from there.
Finnally reached a spot that had a 3 track spur at one point(or atleast 3 tracks branching off at the same point). They all went north.
From there, we continued to another spur I never knew about. Its the one that only westbound trains could access. It crosses Commercial BLVD on a diagonal rite near the LIB maintenance facility. The tracks are in usuable condition. The crossing may have a few 2 inch patches of new pavement over the rails, but otherwise, it also is usuable.
I never knew about this track, but I knew about what was on it. The 2 P72's, the two hacks, and the one boxcar that I think belong to Friends of Engine 35. The tracks continues across Oak St(same situation with this crossing) and then is paved over. It goes between buildings on Commercial and Bethel(?) Sts. Who said there's no potential freight customers. This spur alone has plenty of places. One is the Pasta building.
Ran out of film, so we made a run over to the mall. Found out CVS isn;t there anymore, but there is some new place that does sell film.
From the mall, we went to the currnt end of the Roosevelt Raceway Spur. It's a lil after the crossing with East Gate BLVD. The tracks run along a fence through a lot of trees and stuff for about 1000 feet, maybe more. That's where it ends. We started the new roll of film there. We then took a few pictures of the East Gate BLVD crossing. Pretty unusual. The road has a sorta island in the middle of the road. The tracks cross 2 lanes of traffic, then the go through the island, and then another 2 lanes.
The tracks are very easy to see. They are covered over in a few places wit grass, and a few trees, but otherwise, fairly clear. We also got a picture of the parking lot that is curved b/c of the tracks. At the end of the curve, another crossing, mostly trucks.
Between the end of the curve and just before Zeckendorf BLVD, the line is 2 tracks. Anyone wanna clue me in on why such a small 2 track section?
We crossed Zeckendorf BLVD(not an easy task) and continued towards the central. Just before Lowes, there is a short spur track the disapears under the pavement. We were able to trace what we believe was the tracks to a small garage area, and next to it, a decrepit unloading dock. Could fit about....3 or 4 boxcars. Definately once had tracks.
Got back onto the tracks and continued towards the central. Just before the Meadowbrook Parkway, there is another track that must have once spured off and went to that same garage and unloading dock(must have been a wye at the unloading dock).
I learned that there are THREE RR birdges over the Meadowbrook Parkway.(In order from north to south) First is the LIRR main line, second is the Roosevelt Raceway(the track we were on), and the next is the Central. So far, no severed tracks(except those spur tracks) between where we began and the bridge.
We walked over the Meadowbrook Parkway via the RR bridge. We took a few pics there too.
We then went on, continuing toward the central. Nothing really, just the in tact tracks. A crossing at South St, I think it was perfectly clear. We finally reached Stewart Av, which the crossing was paved over. We took a picture of the ex-crossing.
After that we got the N16 to the mall, the N22 to mineola, and then N23 back to PW.
Can't wait to see the pics! I'll be sure to post them on a website and let y'all know.
Also, our next trip will consist the central ROW between Quentin Roosevelt BLVD and the east end of Eisenhower Park. We will also walk the Mitchell Field Spur and any other spur we find.
Also if you crossed the Meadowbrook Pkwy. in the trees, there is an abandoned single track railroad trestle. The space underneath was filled in years ago. This was part of the Central branch that went through what is now Levittown and Bethpage.
If you walked the Mitchel field secondary to where it stops at the parkway and glance across the parkway where the ROW once was, you could find the area where the trestle is. I found it several years ago and took some pictures. You can't see it from the parkway, it's hidden in the trees. The disappearing foilage may help. That trestle ain't going anywhere !
Better get some film and head back !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I know that. Like I said, three bridges over the Meadowbrook
1. LIRR main line
2. Roosevelt Raceway Spur(this is the one we were on)
3. Central RR
Or do you mean the one further towards Eisenhower Park?
Either way, we only walked the central from Washington Av to Quentin Roosevelt BLVD, then the Roosevelt Raceway Spur. Our next trip is when we're gonna be goin to Mitchell Park and through Eisenhower Park. We'll probably see that trestle you're talkin bout.
"If you walked the Mitchel field secondary to where it stops at the parkway and glance across the parkway where the ROW once was, you could find the area where the trestle is. I found it several years ago and took some pictures. You can't see it from the parkway, it's hidden in the trees. The disappearing foilage may help. That trestle ain't going anywhere ! "
Wait, is this trestle on the Central, or on the Mitchell Field spur? Also, are you talking about the Meadowbrook Parkway, or Long Island Motor Parkway?
The trestle once was the Central Branch. I found it by driving north on the Meadowbrook Pkwy and pulled off where I can see the Central ROW on the left. I visually traced where the ROW would have crossed the Meadowbrook and walked in the woods and there was the trestle. I'm not sure if it can be accessed from the local roads.
I saw a Newsday artictle years back on the trestle that was hidden in the woods with no track on it. The article had a photo of a car underneath it, but for some reason, the area underneath was filled in. It basically looks like a steel trestle sitting on the dirt. A piece of forgotten LIRR history.
The Mitchel Field secondary ends west of the Meadowbrook. Let us know if you find the trestle.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think the Central RR of LI bridge over the Meadowbrook is gone. If it is still there, then that is the 3rd bridge over the meadowbrook parkway that I'm talking about.
The bridge that you are talking about is in EISENHOWER PARK.
I'm not sure how old the Meadowbrook Parkway is. The Central Branch may have predated the Meadowbrook Pkwy.
"The bridge that you are talking about is in EISENHOWER PARK."
NOPE ! The bridge I'm talking about is nowhere near Eisenhower Park. I found the bridge when driving on the Meadowbrook traveling north. I pulled off the parkway onto the grass and drove near the wooded area. I glanced across the parkway where the old Central Branch ended at Meadowbrook and visually followed where the ROW once was. The steel trestle is in the wooded area just yards from the parkway pavement. Not many people know about this. I saw and photographed it about ten years ago. It's not a large trestle, just a small one for a road to go underneath it. Underneath the trestle was filled in years ago.
If the weather is nice this weekend, I'll go back there to check it out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, it couldn't have predated it by much if they had to build a bridge either for the roosevelt raceway spur, or for the meadowbrook parkway to go under the part of the spur. The thing is, the spur is constructed so it doesn't span the Meadowbrook the long way, so, unless they re-built that section of the spur when building the meadowbrook, then the meadowbrook predates atleast this spur. However, the spur may have also been constructed AFTER the central's time period. I'll have to look that up.
I e-mailed Art Huneke, who has that great website on the LIRR history. I posed the following questions about that mysterious hidden trestle.
1) Is this trestle part of the old Central Branch ?
Yes. In 1924 it replaced an older bridge.
2) Did the Meadowbrook Pkwy predate the Central ?
C.R.R.L.I. 1873 - Meadowbrook Pkwy 1956
3) Being that the trestle was only one track wide, was the Central single tracked through what is now Levittown ?
Yes, with sidings.
4) The poster thinks the trestle is not the Central and might be for a spur.
The filled in bridge was the Central. The bridge across the parkway was the spur.
Try Art Huneke's website for some very valuable LIRR history.
http://arrts-arrchives.com/index.html
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably because everyone on LI now has a CVS within 100 yards of their home.
CG
Most likely it closed because it was NOT doing well. Just because a business looks busy does not necessarily mean that it is performing well financially. While it don't have any specific knowledge concerning the CVS at Roosevely Field, a reasonable guess is that its sales were very low margin, in other words it made only a tiny amount of profit on each dollar's worth of sales. Many malls compute rent as a percentage of a store's gross sales. That doesn't work well with a low-margin business.
I've been thinking about that trip all day, I can't wait to do the rest of it. We'll probably do that part again just for kicks. I'm glad we got a picture of the old LIRR crossing station site(or atleast the approximate location). Also, we climbed into the hoppers that were there, lots of wierd stuff in them.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
So I never photographed them in situ. I wish I had now. Apparently they were left over from when tokens came in late 40s or 50s? and nobody ever bothered to remove them.
I believe the ticket chopper and wooden token booth at Wall Street are consciously preserved relics, not 'leftovers' as it were.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
www.forgotten-ny.com
He is talking about the R142-S, the special supplementary order of R142A cars.
My photos from Various MOD Trips over the last one or two years.
This is what I live for...
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/index4.html
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
[My father was an Arnine]
Koi
Koi
You meant 65 St.
The stop that comes before Roosevelt Avenue. Whatever the hell that is. You know what I mean!!! :)
IIRC the local stops west of Roosevelt Ave. do not have I-beams on their platforms while the ones between Roosevelt and Continental Ave. do.
So I lied. There is now one video with sound online, and I will be adding more shortly. I will keep you all posted, in a style that J.M. is sure to hate :)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/modindex.html
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/modindex.html
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/modindex.html
Seriously, I know I posted these late last night, but still, no one has any comments? Has anyone even downloaded and watched them?
I'm hoping when they're all posted they follow the trip in order. Are you going to keep them up for a while, or are these video's temporary for space?
Super! No, this was not the Triplex. These were three "single" type cars of the R-1, R-4, and R-7A classes. The doors between the cars were held open with latches to facilitate easy transfer between the cars (especially if you are holding a video camera). They were open the whole trip. The open doors are just one more dimension of coolness about these trips.
I'm hoping when they're all posted they follow the trip in order. Are you going to keep them up for a while, or are these video's temporary for space?
Yes, I will put them into order, and I will keep them online for a while. ALSO, if there is interest, I may be able to host the complete 2.5 hours of video online. It would probably be about 800MB. Would anyone be interested in that?
Yes, please :-) Any NYCsubway video clips are welcome! :-)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/video/modindex.html
Your stuff is first class!
Chuck Greene
Brought back some pleasant memories.
Some of the areas that I'm curious about are:
How did the conduit system work on the Manhattan lines, especailly with respect to turnouts, maintenance, and dealing with the snow and garbage that must have accumulated in them.
Did people in the general population object when trolley lines were abadonded in favor of busses? How did people feel about suddenly having to smell diesel fumes when walking or driving behind a bus? How did railfans of the time react to the conversions? Were there any serious attempts made to "save" at least some of the lines?
How dense was the service in the various buroughs at the height of the trolley era? Were there lines with private ROW? And, if so, why were they abandonded?
Is there anywhere in NYC where trolley tracks are still visible in the pavement?
I think this is a fascinating topic, and would especially love to hear from any of you who may have ridden the cars in your youth and lived through the time of the abandonments.
Thanks for the info...
John
http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/donharold/
www.forgotten-ny.com
Speaking about Brooklyn ... yes, there was a good deal of unhappiness, and not just from railfans. However, the lines disappeared in an era when "progress" was rarely opposed and when the phrase "you can't fight City Hall" was common.
Railfans ran fantrips and took pictures and movies. Some cars were preserved at museums like Branford. I recall during the '50s railfans were running all over the country to ride and photograph before it was all gone.
How dense was the service in the various buroughs at the height of the trolley era? Were there lines with private ROW? And, if so, why were they abandonded?
Very dense, though in Brooklyn there were few east-west lines south of Church Avenue. Areas like Bed-Stuy, Williamsburg, etc., were criss-crossed by most of the same lines that are now bus routes.
I feel that the loss of the trolleys was a foreshadowing of the genereal deterioration of the city that occurred in the decades that followed the 50's. And what an awful deterioration it was, culminating the the blight and near-death of many parts of the city in the 1970's. I think that when the trolleys went, so did a part of the souls of many of the residents, perhaps planting the seeds of discontent with life in the city that led to the flight of numerous residents to the suburbs. I'm now hopeful, with so many cities bringing back streetcars, that some of that old-time big-city ambience can be regained and people will be able to recapture, at least in some small part, the lifestyle of which the trolleys were such an important part. Maybe the Dodgers will even come back to Brooklyn...
John
After a lot of thought devoted to this subject, I've come to the conclusion that the only feasible place in Brooklyn for any new sports stadium or complex is...East New York. Forget the Flatbush Terminal area, ditto for Coney Island. East New York has the best transit-centric qualities for absorbing great chunks of ridership on the connecting facilities. East New York is probably more amenable to such a large real estate project.
Something like this could really be a great thing for Brooklyn. Hordes of Long Islanders filling the adjacent streets, mixing with the city crowds. Pizza joints opening up, bars, restaurants. A couple of shops opening in the neighborhood. Buildings starting to get noticed; opportunities opening up. The beginnings of a new city office district appearing. This is how I picture it.
The railfan aspects...well, I like the idea of taking the super-express LIRR train to the stadium. No other sports complex, probably in the world, would be as ably served by rail transit. Who knows? We could see a light rail line coming up Pennsylvania Avenue from Starret City to Broadway Junction.
If this is true (unknown) this will be a big win for 7 line. if you think it other express lines are be cutting down on hours.
--Mark
Here's a bigger question: Why the hell were all of the Manhattan stops on the (7) built with just an island platform?? With an island, the platform gets very crowded because of people waiting for trains in both directions.
If the <7> was extended....I guess it would only stop at Grand Central and Times Square? Or maybe skip Grand Central and go straight to Times Square. Passengers wanting to the Lexington Ave. line could get off at Queensboro Plaza and change for the (N) or (W), which takes you there in one stop. But that might get the Astoria Line overcrowded, and it screws the passengers who want to connect to Metro North at GCT.
I give up.
When the paltforms are the most crowded in the peak direction, there are very few people waiting for trains in the opposite direction.
CG
R-32.
If the platforms are wide it's no problem. An advantage of it is, that
with signals for using the left track it's possible to use it when a
defect train blocks the right track. (without people changing the platfroms)
6-8 TPH is better that 0 TPH
I would find it to be a real pain in the neck, because I like being able to get on any train that stops every couple of minutes at Vernon-Jackson to go to GCT, but it's one way to sort the traffic through the tunnels. Turn them all immediately onto the outbound track at TS and no more waiting.
Where do you get your sources from?
Were these signs made with the intention of having the crew set the rollsigns to say (7) Local to distinguish it from the express when they're running in the same direction? Then what about the <7> with no express?
The trains aren't properly signed as it is. I can't believe that the TA would ever expect the crew to change them to something as insignificant as (7) Local.
The ones with no "Express" on them, I believe, are the original R62 signs. They originally had no extra numbers either.
[Were these signs made with the intention of having the crew set the rollsigns to say (7) Local to distinguish it from the express when they're running in the same direction?]
Yes, that's the reason. It mainly appeared on the <6> line, but now that that line is 100% Gen IV cars (R142A's), the 7 line has the "Express" capability.
:-) Andrew
Example: <7> Express trains displaying (7)
(7) local trains bearing <7> Express signage
If the 7 gets R142/A cars or some new tech train yet to be built, expect the constant dilemma of whetehr or not the 7 is a local or express to end once and for all.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-17-03_SPRINGFIELD_TRIP/?M=D
The R-36 and R-33 World's Fair cars (1963-1964) were the first to have the "TA" logo; next came the R-32 (1965).
The R-10's had them added later, when they were repainted in the turquoise paint scheme
That's what I thought.
I was looking at some old pictures of Corona Yard back when the WF's were new, and they were the only cars that had a logo on them. Then, looking at pics of the really old cars, I noticed they didn't have logos either.
Thanks for the replies.
This same logo also was used on the GM Old Look buses (had a gM Old Look bus, of course...) but NOT on any of the GM New Look buses.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
No you didn't.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Sir Ronald of McDonald
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Upstate, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. To some people, it's anywhere north of the city line; others say it begins north of Westchester and Rockland; still others consider I-84 the dividing line.
Please love your fellow subtalker.
wayne
http://store.transitgallery.com/calendar.html
Is there a rule for this?
Why, Pig? What is your agenda?
I FORMALLY propose that 204th and Webster (which no longer has trains) be RENAMED to "SelkirkTMO SQUARE" ... which'll confuse the FORK out of the residents, and people everywhere. DANG! Pomposity *is* cool! Ouch! Better deflate my shoes ... stand on steady BLUE line, we're going to see the PRESIDENT! No flashes, please. I think we're all bozos on this bus. Squeeze the weez! (many people like to) ...
Nothing better for a community photo op though than a street sign change. As Unca Pigs has said, "Avenue of the Americas" ... :)
And I get BOTH SIDES of that old embankment they ripped the LIRR tracks off of.
Next we'll be seeing Executive Circle Boulevards.
--Mark
Anyone for BBQ Pig? or would you prefer roasted?
Many people prefer a vinegar-based sauce, while others like one with a tomato base. You also have the soy-based Asian sauces.
I don't know which type would go better with American Pig.
--Z--
The next time you bite into a piece of pork/bacon/ham whatever, remember this: People tastle like pork.
I say OK as long as you reinstate the "Crosby Avenue" part to the Buhre Ave station, AND replace the plates on the 1962 lampposts.
wayne
The street running past the station is Bruckner Boulevard, service road for the Bruckner Expressway/I-95, formerly NY-1A Bruckner Blvd, formerly NY-1A/US-1 Eastern Boulevard.
Pelham Bay Parkway could refer to what is now called Joseph Crimi Road. The street called Pelham Parkway is the Bronx and Pelham Parkway.
The report praised Metro North's "tone game", a training technique that helps sensitize new conductors to the tone of their voice when they speak to the public.
Report to MTA
Perhaps the tone game could be applied to Subtalk, to help sensitize posters to the tone of their posts.
Note the difference between each of the following:
You're an asshole.
YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE
YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE!!!!
They made riding their trains its own reward.
-Robert King
-Robert King
The MTA wants to keep this piece of business for itself
And I'd like to know where all these "rules" are posted. Ok, you have those signs on the subway saying to keep your feet off the seats once in a while, and LIRR/Metro-North conductors announcing "Please Keep your feet of the seats" before leaving major terminals, but I've never seen any other rules.
Total bullshit power trips.
"No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall...Occupy more than one seat on a station, platform or conveyance; lie on the floor, platform, stairway, landing or conveyance; or block free movement on a station, stairway, platform or conveyance"
What exactly does that last clause mean?. Surely anyone entering a station, etc is to a certain extent blocking free movement. How do you apply zero-tolerence to such an ill-drafted, interpretation-prone restriction?.
Does it govern the rate of speed at which you move? - up to about a year ago I walked up and down stairs V E R Y S L O W L Y (one step at a time) due to severe knee problems.
And what exactly do you do when you reach the platform and there isn't a train there?. Or when you board a subway car and it fails to immediately hyper-translocate to your destination. 1050.7(j) doesn't make any differentiation between stairs and platforms, and explicitly does apply to vehicles.
Clearly whether an individual is moving or not cannot be the deciding factor you think it is, or most subway riders would be in violation most of the time.
Yes I know there are common-sense definitions; failing to 'move along' when asked to do so, etc. But that really depends on the cops bending the letter of the law so as not to apply it to certain groups of people they don't see as a problem; and that is quite contrary to the idea of zero-tolerance.
Stand somewhere that's out of the way, like the center of the platform, or sit down on a bench, or go somewhere that would not greatly hinder another person's attempt to access a different area of the platform.
1050.7(j) does make refrence to "facilities," which are defined as "all property and equipment, including, without limitation, rights of way and related trackage, rails, signal, power, fuel, communication and ventilation systems, power plants, stations, terminals, signage, storage yards, depots, repair and maintenance shops, yards, offices and other real estate or personalty used or held for or incidental to the operation, rehabilitation or improvement of any rapid transit railroad or omnibus line of the Authority" (1050.2(b)).
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
VC Madman
It's perfectly fine for you to post it again - it makes for amusement and more people will see it.
John
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=601981
"Cool!"
:0)
Of course, there's always the question of these officers meeting their quotas (or productivity goals as NYPD claims they are). Reminds me of the time, several years ago, that our wonderful police officers ran over a red light generator in the Bronx to trap unwary motorists to fulfill their quotas and then Mayor Guiliani defending these clowns.
Aren't there real criminals out there that NYPD can chase after?
But anyway, did she have a disabilty, and how would she prove whatever she's doing is because of a disability? That's what i'm wondering.
"I realize that some similar acts to these require police action, but the purpose of law enforcement officers is to serve and protect, neither of which these officers seem to have done."
That's true, but when you start ignoring anything, you get crime. You sneak into the back of a bus or switch price tags in a store in philly and it's no problem because it's not a real crime and you often get away with it. In lots of really tough places you get locked up for it, no questions asked. It's cascading, where are you going to draw the line?
B, D going over the bridge and switching routes in Brooklyn. (This every one knows.)
Here some you might not have know.
M: M are not going to stop at 9th Ave anymore during the mid days. They will trun around at ether Chambers St or Broads St depenting on what time it is. Also train running to and from Bay Parkway the stop running earlyer now. I saw two jobs that do 4 trip like this.:
1) Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers and back
2) Metropolitan Avenue to Bay Parkway and back
3) Metropolitan Avenue to Braord St and back
4) Metropolitan Avenue to Myrtle Avenue/Broadway and back.
There are also alot more one triper jobs on the M next pick.
N: N are going to run 24/7 to Ditmats Ave since the W will only going to be a Rush Hours and Mid Day Route. This meens NO more OPTO in Brooklyn starting next pick since the D are now going over the WestEnd line 24/7 to 205th St.
G: G are now going to Relay at Church Ave on Saturdays untill about 9:30pm, this is being done to keep from interfing with the F tring to get thought a G waiting to get into the Relay at 4th Ave. This is adding more jobs for the G line on Saturdays and also more jobs were added to Sundays as well but I think the hours of relaying to Chursch remaine the same.
There might be other but this is all I saw looking thought the pick.
Robert
I most likey will stay in Queens and work the G on the Weekend but with jobs that get off earler around 10:30-11:00pm, I could have gotting work like this but went for the Money instead. My weekdays jobs are good but lets see if I could do better next pick.
Robert
P.S. the C/R I have over the WEEKENDS on the G are very, Very slow, I can't even make my time.
PLEASE, NO offense to conductors intended - but I was UMD, so it's whole 'nother world ... I couldn't FATHOM why *I* got yelled at when I didn't turn in a sheet, and "correspondence" and somehow it was MY fault that the train was late when the reasons didn't show on the gap sheets, hold sheets, or any of the other number 2 pencil reasons of the railroad. Not many know a motorman's perspective on the world, but it caused me at a tender age to be LESS tolerant of "el toro caca" ... Just thought you'd appreciate hearing from someone who's been there. :)
Robert
I wonder if that's because the passengers don't know where to wait for the train? Are those signs (directing passengers to the center of the platform) up at all stations along the G line?
Second of all I was complaning about myself being slow, G run OPTO on the Weekends
Robert
VC Madman
In regards to the M line, it was also known (like the B and D) that the M will not do any more trips to 9th Avenue in south Brooklyn. So the M will run between Chambers and Metropolitan on middays.
Fred, pack your bags and get over to the city by Friday the 20th, it will be a Saturday night blast.
Robert
--Mark
wayne
Is that Ditmas Avenue on the F or Ditmars Blvd on the N? If Ditmas, how is the N going to get there?
Robert
VC Madman
Robert
--Mark
W: most jobs are based in Astoria, with 2 AM's starting at 57th (they seem to go to Astoria before heading downtown), 5 at CHL, and 3 from CIY that go into service at 86th. (I wonder if these will go as W's or as N's, and whether they will be express or local on 4th Av.)
One PM job clears at Whitehall, 2 at 57th, 5 at CHL, and the 3 that go to 86th and CIY.
On the N, 3 AM and 2 PM jobs start at 57th and 1 PM clears there.
On Sat and Sun. 5 jobs start at CHL and 3 clear there (plus one more on Sat.) Since the N now apparently will not have space at City Hall anymore, these will be borrowed from the W, so whatever is assigned to the W you can expect to see on the N weeknds. (and one crew or the other who starts or finishes there can expect to be changing signs).
On the M, it is true that there are several jobs with only 1 trip to BPY. They start at CIY or BPY and finish at CIY (3 AM's, 7 PM's)
Only one job now has 2 to BPY, and it just makes the 2 trips from there to MET, and then finishes at CIY. Most of the rest of the jobs are a combination of shuttles, Chambers St. (often 2 or 3) or 1 trip to Broad, with 1 trip to BPY. 1 PM job has one of each destination, and two have one of each minus the shuttle.
Basically, it is claimed, that after surveying Brighton passengers, by a wide margin they preferred Broadway service to 6th Avenue service. Therefore the Q, running on Broadway, will be running 24/7 on the Brighton line being an express during weekdays. Weekday local service will be provided by the 6th Avenue service but instead of giving Brighton back the D, they were given the B. So, it is really a wash during the week as few Brighton riders venture so far north that the fact the B does not necessarily run the entire Concourse route makes any difference and one would suppose this logic is correct.
The 24/7 D service will be on the West End.
Now perhaps the only significant or insignificant problem might be weekends when Brighton passengers might prefer Sixth Avenue say if they are going to NYU (W 4 St) or perhaps Yankee Stadium. As long as the D stops at DeKalb when the B is not running; something incidentally that doesn't seem to have been resolved, it is probably no big deal although it would be to any Yankee fans living along the Brighton line coming home from a Yankee game late at night.
Does the plan make sense? I suppose so; especially if indeed a fair survey was done to determine the true preferences of Brighton riders; especially during off hours and weekends.
wayne
AFIK the (B) Will be express 16/5 and the (Q) will be local 24/7
On the West end the (D) will be local 24/7.
All are EXPRESS in Manhattan.
Elias
The D should be local north of 59th when the B doesn't run. But that's a topic for another thread.
Weekdays:
(B) BPB - CPW Lcl - 6th Exp - 4th Exp - West End - CI
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
Nights and weekends:
(B) 205 - CPW Lcl - 6th Exp - 4th Exp - West End - CI
Or maybe it was just too late in the game for a change like that to be made.
The return email did indicate that my suggestion was forwarded to the planners.
With this and a renaming of the Late night A to C, B & C could swap
their northern terminals again.
What I do find humourous in this whole situation is that one of the primary purposes of the original construction back in 1967 was to give Brighton riders D train service. That was the whole point, or so they said back then, that the Broadway tracks were overcrowded but the 6th Avenue tracks were underused. So Brighton riders were given the D train and weekdays they kept Broadway service via such services as QJ, QB and others. The Brighton D service was one of the launchpins of B division service. It's almost, although I know it really isn't, a matter of lost prestige for Brighton riders. A silly argument, I guess so. But historically, the IND was the A train (Duke Ellington) and the D train. All the others well choose your words.
In reality, it's all a matter of semantics anyway eh!
This is incorrect... Brighton Line customers have little use for a 6th Avenue Line, all such destinations are readily available from the Broadway Line.
What it did was to give SIXTH Avenue more access to Brooklyn.
: ) Elias
Well let's see, there's Yankee Stadium, Columbus Circle, NYU (W 4th St), etc.
Well let's see, there's Yankee Stadium,
Since when is Yankee Stadium on 6th Avenue ???
Yes there are lots of places where you need to change trains at least once. Unless you are going to Mid-town, you ought to expect to have to change trains.
After all, passengers from Fulton Street, The Culver Line, the Canarsie Line, the Queesboro Line, and the Flushing Line ALL have to change somewhere to get to Yankee Stadium.
The reason Christie was built was to get more service and tph out of the main Sixth Avenue Trunk, and they really didn't give a rip where the trains went after they got off of the Manny B., people out there would adjust their patterns.
Elias : )
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/136064p-121044c.html
www.forgotten-ny.com
With the "E" train, that is the most direct route for passengers coming in from NJ via Penn Station or Port Authority to get to the east side. During the morning rush, the "E" is pretty much empty nb between WTC and 34th St. After stopping at 34th and 42nd Sts, that train is packed. Most of the passengers get off at 5th Ave. The rest get off at Lexington-3rd Ave. When that train leaves Lexington-3rd, it is virtually empty.
With the "L" train, just the stops at 3rd and 1st Avs you have quite a few passengers, especially at 1st Ave. which at that part of Manhattan, you have another 5 long blocks before you hit the East River and a large housing complex taking up the entire space that I just mentioned.
All are heavy but minority use.
E: huge. The AM rush crowds at 34th northbound waiting to go to the East 50s are tremendous. Empty E trains get totally filled there. But of course the E to/from Queens is also incredibly heavily used.
7: lots of people at GCT are riding to or from the west.
L: I use it a lot from 3rd Ave, but intra-Manhattan use is probably the lightest on that one. However, there are a lot of people at Union Square using it to/from the west.
I don't know so much about the F line as a crosstown route. Maybe the N/R/W though.
It may be semantic nitpicking, but one could argue that this routing is not really crosstown.
I know that, of course; my point is that if you take the E from 34th to 51st and Lex (and especially to 5th) you're going uptown as much as crosstown. In fact, I suspec that in terms of distance travelled, you go uptown more than crosstown.
These trips tend to not be in the peak hour, so the heavy rush hour crowding on the IRT is not a problem, while the frequent non-rush service and quick expresses are a benefit. The B division trains seem to crawl in comparison, and service is less frequent.
If I got off a train at Penn Station, and wanted to go someplace on the east side, I'd WALK to Lexington and then get the train.
It would probably never have occured to me to take the (E) unless my destination was on or near 53rd Street.
Going Downtown, I'd be thinking in terms of the Broadway Line.
Elias
When the card is used up (i.e. down to the last dollar, which cannot be used as part of a fare), you insert the back into the vending machine, and get a dollar back. The card is then recycled.
I've been riding SMRT for the past two days, and haven't seen a single fare card anywhere except in the possession of passengers!
At least they don't do public floggings of litterers ... or do they?
They'd need to introduce a new technology. The current cards tend to get scratched after a while and then not work so well. When I used PPR cards, I found that after using about $60 worth I had to dump them because they'd start to fail in the readers more often.
If I recall correctly, when you add money to a WMATA card (which is a flimsy paper card), the machine spits out a fresh card for you.
Smallest check I ever cashed.
I would have thought that the lack of breakfast would have made it easier for you to squeeze through.
No wonder people find cards on the floor with money on them.
But that's how it works on buses...
The smart-chip cards would work great with proximity reads, however. The system is what they use in my laundry room ($3 for original card purchase), and I love it.
Before you ridicule and throw rocks at somebody without thinking first, try comparing the crowds on NYCTA to PATCO's ridership.
While PATCO's system does solve the problem, and also can give PATCO interesting data about where passengers actually go, it can also cause a lot of delays in getting crowds out of the station. I see a serious problem in implementing a system like that at the 53/Lex station and 51/Lex stations at rush hour, or at Times Square.
??
By the way, I've ridden PATCO at rush hour too - and rode it ten years ago, when its ridership was, if I'm not mistaken, higher than today.
There is NO COMPARISON to the NYCT rush hour crowding.
Besides, the turnstile couldn't hold onto the card if it still had a free transfer, even though most subway passengers don't use the free transfer. So this would only solve the problem in a fraction of the cases.
And what happens if the turnstile fills up?
On the way out, tickets are required to exit the system. Single-use tickets are captured, multiple use tickets are returned.
I would argue that Oxford Circus is comparable in passenger traffic to Times Square.
BTW: Individual gates are one-way either in or out, though they can be changed to run in the opposite direction depending on the traffic flow requirements.
At the moment, they are available for 7-day and up travelcards.
Seeing the Oystercard web site has answered one question for me: I was wondering what the big yellow discs on LU turnstiles were doing. Now I know!
The cards used in Hong Kong are Octopus cards, and they have been in use since 1997. They initially replaced a magnetic 'common stored value ticket' not unlike New York's Metrocard that had been in use since 1979 on the MTR (the subway) and KCR (commuter railway).
Since then their use has spread to buses, the new airport railway, most ferries and even the 'Peak Tram' funicular. You can even use them to pay for phone-calls or buy things from vending machines.
If you guys want to see a well-organised transit system, visit Hong Kong.
It is especially impressive when you realise how fragmented the ownership is. The MTR and KCR are independant (of each other) government corporations, the buses are run by three or four private companies, the ferries by another couple of private companies, etc. And yet a single payment card works for all.
It just shows what can happen, if the will is there to make it happen.
Oxford Circus looks very busy, although much of the effect is people transferring (try doing St Pancras to Waterloo or Marylebone to Victoria). Even so, it has the most people entering and exiting of any Underground station.
Whats not obvious about Oxford Circus is that it serves a fair office-worker population, besides the shoppers/tourists. One block behind most of Oxford street is a lot of small (and not-so-small) office companies.
Though your point about the transfers there contributing to the busyness is well made. Bond Street, Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Holborn probably have more transfers than the rest of the system put together!
Nothing changes - at least it was ghastly last time I rode in rush hour (Oxford Circus - Lancaster Gate) - next time I'll get the Bakerloo to Paddington and walk.
Bond Street, Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Holborn probably have more transfers than the rest of the system put together!
Especially now Camden Town's out!
really now, how about getting home in the outer boroughs?
And the young man you spoke of got 4 strokes instead of 6 for an act of vandalism.
Not everyone would consider that punishment :)
I think it's a combination of the technology, legislation and people's attitudes towards littering in Singapore - I mean, it's illegal to chew gum because of the mess it made on public sidewalks. People in Singapore tend to be neater that New Yorkers. New Yorkers don't have "time" to throw away MetroCards properly. It's sort of accepted in NY that it's OK to litter even though we all know it isn't.
--Mark
Mark
Click on the middle picture, which is blank on my screen, and you can match the names in the post.
What really saddened me (no offense here to the TIMES crew, this is PURELY MTA's fault) ... every damned train shot (even on tangent) showed trains CRAWLING slower than a damned BUS on Madison Avenue. :(
I've FINALLY figured out the scam ... with Shrub-Enron and company pushing "BRT" ("Bustitution" for the uninitiated) I'm *FINALLY* getting the scam ... make trains *SO* slow, that the M-1 is the "express" ... aggggh! :(
Now wrap that video in Saran Wrap!
The video of the tugboats working to get the 63rd Street tunnel sections into the East River were really cool.
Was the ESA train rocket powered, or was the speed and sound a bit over the top on those cartoons?
Overall the show was full of errors and shots of Els while talking about early subways.
http://www.nbc5.com/traffic/2625840/detail.html?z=dp&dpswid=2265994&dppid=65194
wayne
CTA is still a great bargain!
No offense, but that's not how I read it:
"The agency plans to phase in a switch to alternating current (AC) electrical propulsion on all seven rapid-transit lines starting within about five years."
The phrase "starting within about five years" says to me that CTA will begin phasing in AC-motored equipment within five years, not have everying converted within five years. This makes sense; elsewhere in the article it mentions the need to change a lot of the signalling, which I would imagine is a very large project in itself. My guess is that CTA wants to avoid re-motoring the 2200's and 2400's, which are due to be retired as soon as the next order for cars is built. They probably plan on rebuilding the 2600's and 3200's with AC motors, though, since they'll be around for a while.
Frank Hicks
"We are thinking the conversion will take four to five years, but it could be longer depending on the market," said Dennis Anosike, CTA treasurer and vice president of finance. He said the switch to AC generation will be made one rail line at a time, perhaps beginning with the Brown Line when its $529 million reconstruction, set to start next year, is completed in 2008.
However, conversion of the 2600- and 3200-series cars to AC propulsion is apparently NOT being considered. I can only assume that whatever signalling changes are made, they will be compatible with both AC- and DC-motored cars. The complete Chicago-L.org article is available here.
Frank Hicks
Jeff, you are the electrical engineer and you should know this. Some signals in signal circuity are carried by changes in DC voltage levels, and in other cases they are carried by a frequency modulated AC signal on top of a DC current (e.g. the track circuit current). Introducing an AC traction motor which emits EM waves at varying frequencies can cause interference, and induce current in wires going to/from relay boxes and cause wrong side failures. Admittedly the solution is simple (use shielding or use different ranges of frequencies) but it does take infrastructure changes and testing to accomplish all of the above.
AEM7
Though, some inverters let you punch in a list of 'skip' frequencies and such, i.e., they'll avoid an operating mode that generates XYZ frequency.
My guess is the CTA is doing some filter voodo, or maybe even installing new stuff that has DSP or something to cut the noise (that would be interesting...)
A square wave has only odd harmonics, like any wave that is anti-symmetric about its half period. Square wave harmonics decrease as 1/n, where n is the harmonic. Thus, your hypothetical 1 khz square wave will not have any harmonic at 10 khz. If the amplitude of the first (1 khz) is 1, then the amplitude at 9 khz will be 0.11 and the amplitude at 11 khz will be 0.09.
Perfect square waves are probably the worst case. If one assumes non-zero rise and fall times (trapezoidal waves), then the harmonic falloff becomes 1/n2. Similarly full-wave rectification virtually guarantees cancellation of all even harmonics.
when Phil says 1kHz it means 1kHz range. And you also know that varying the frequency between .9kHz and 1.1kHz
Crystal controlled phase-locked loops have viruatlly eliminated frequency drift due to component aging. So, once a design frequency is set, it will not drift with time. Even comparator based oscillators, like the 555, have very good frequency stability.
On the signalling side, frequency that is constant transmits no signal.
On the traction side, frequency that is constant causes AC traction motors to turn at a constant speed.
Let's not confuse the presence/or absence of several signals each at a distinct fixed frequency with a signal that has variable frequency.
On the traction side, frequency that is constant causes AC traction motors to turn at a constant speed.
Do you really think you are running the motors synchronously with a 1 khz excitation? If it were, then the motors would be rotating at 60,000 rpm.
Do you realize (and I know you do) that the absence/presence signal itself has a frequency? Let's say you transmit a series of ones and zeros at 10 bits per second using a carrier wave of 1kHz, you have in effect a 10Hz square wave superimposed on top of a 1kHz square wave, and you now have to deal with harmonics from both 'waves'.
If you're talking about an on/off type design, that only gives you two aspects and prevents you from multiplexing over the same cable.
Do you really think you are running the motors synchronously with a 1 khz excitation? If it were, then the motors would be rotating at 60,000 rpm.
Have you ever encountered the term "Pulse Width Modulation"? (Yes, Phil Nasadowski mentioned it to me first, and I had always known about it but not in as great detail as Phil, so if you want to learn more, here is a link.)
That's fairly easy to calculate. Let's start with simple sinusoids and work onto square waves.
You have: v(t) = cos(2 pi fmt) cos (2 pi fct)
where fm is the modulation frequency (10 hz) and fc is the carrier frequency (1 khz).
This is [cos2 pi (fc+fm)t + cos 2 pi (fc-fm)t] using the trig formula for the cosine of a difference and sum of 2 angles.
So there will be a signal at 990 hz and 1010 hz.
Next consider the harmonics of the moulating signal. The 2nd harmonic will have components at 980 and 1020 hz. However they will be half the amplitude of the than the components of 990 and 1010 hz because the harmonic content of the modulating square wave signal decreases inversely with the harmonic frequency. Therefore the 10th harmonic will be an order of magnitude lower than the modulating frequency's fundamental. So the amplitude for frequencies 900 hz or above 1100 hz will be less than 10%, making a bandwidth about the carrier of 200 hz. The pattern will resemble an isosceles triangle centered at the carrier.
Next consider the harmonics of the carrier signal. The second harmonic at 2000 hz will behave exactly like the fundamental except that its amplitude will be half that of the carrier. So, there will be another isosceles triangle centered at 2000 hz at half the amplitude than that at 1000 hz. Similarly the spectrum at 3000 hz will be attenuated by 1/3 and so forth. Well be down to one tenth the amplitude by the time we get to the 10th harmonic and less for higher harmonics. So, the harmonic content above 10 khz will be down at least an order of magnitude.
Only the spectrum around the 1 khz carrier fundamental is really required to decode the signal. One really does not care whether the carrier is a sinusoid or a square wave. We are only interested in the modulating signal. Its information is contained in the 200 hz bandwidth around the carrier. That's all the bandwidth the decoding circuits need use.
Have you ever encountered the term "Pulse Width Modulation"?
Yes, I've stumbled over that term. The link shows that the PWM is used on the traction side for DC to DC control of a DC amplitude (chopper control). This discussion is about DC to AC conversion and PWM is not germane.
The 2nd harmonic of a square wave ?!
I'm allowing for the case where the carrier is not anti-symmetric about its half-period:
f(t) <> - f(t-T/2), where T is the period of f(t).
Just in case somebody thinks a square wave is too well behaved. As I noted in an earlier post, bandlimiting the signal (having non-zero rise/fall times) will reduce the harmonic content by another factor of n. So, the 3rd harmonic amplitude would be 1/9 not 1/3 of the fundamental. Admittedly, this is more likely for the modulating signal than for the carrier.
The point is that no matter how one tries to slice it, all the information required to recover the signal is contained in a rather narrow band around its carrier, no matter how many modulation products one wants to consider.
PWM is used when you have an AC traction motor that has to drink DC juice. The DC juice gets chopped up into little fragments at frequencies of up to 1,200Hz and the resulting (much lower frequency) AC current gets fed to the motors. If you have AC modulated signals in the signal system, the noise and harmonics from the traction system induces currents in the signal system causing errors. Now you know.
AEM7
Admittingly Stephen loses me at times, but hey, I'm a young'un :(
No, it's used to vary effective DC voltage. It's the basis of "chopper" excitation for DC traction motors. It has the advantage over traditional resistors by using less power at lower voltages. The effective DC voltage is essentially the pulse's duty cycle. Choppers are also used to convert DC to AC but PWM is not employed. The 3-phase AC signals required for AC motors are digitally generated from DC by using modulo counters or dividers, either in hardware or within a computer program.
The DC juice gets chopped up into little fragments at frequencies of up to 1,200Hz and the resulting (much lower frequency) AC current gets fed to the motors.
Are you suggesting that the voltage (up to 1,200 hz) and the (much lower frequency) AC current are different frequencies? I'm ceratin that many electrical engineers surprised to find voltage and current having different frequencies in the same circuit.
If you have AC modulated signals in the signal system, the noise and harmonics from the traction system induces currents in the signal system causing errors.
I've heard of AM, AM-SC, SSB, PM, FM, PWM, PPM and FSK modulation. What exactly is AC modulation?
Traction motors go up to about 2000 rpm. I have no idea how
many pole pairs are used on these motors, but figure that
corresponds to a synch frequency of a few hunded cy. You
could drive the motor directly with square waves at such
a high frequency, using simple H-bridge drive, because there
is sufficient inductance in the windings. However, at low
shaft speeds, the PWM is needed. I'm not sure if the
AC traction drive packages switch over to square wave drive
towards top end or not.
Phase control. Consider a modulo 6 counter. It will have values of 0 to 5. The phase 1 output will be 1, when the counter is 0,1,2 and 0 elsewhere. The phase 2 output will be 1 when the counter is 2,3,4 and 0 elsewhere. The phase 3 output will be 1 when the counter is 4,5,0 and 0 elsewhere. The output frequency will be 1/6 of the input frequency. The phases are exactly 120 degrees apart regardless of the operating frequency. The output is guaranteed to be square. The same principle can be expanded to any number of poles for the motor.
Frequency control. Consider a modulo 1,000,000 adder/counter. It will have an output of 1 if the counter value is 0-499,999 and 0 if the counter value is 500,000-999,999. Every microsecond add 1 to the counter. The output be a square wave with a period of 1,000,000/1 microseconds = 1 second for a 1 hz wave. Every microsecond add 2 to the counter. The output will be a square wave with a period of 1,000,000/2 = 500,000 micorseconds for a 2 hz square wave. Add 3 every microsecond for a 3 hz wave, etc. Note that 3 and 1,000,000 are relatively prime. The output will coincide exactly to 3 hz after 3 full waveforms. The maximum phase jitter will be 1 microsecond for 1 part in 333,333. This principle can be scaled appropriately for low frequency ranges based on an acceptable phase jitter.
Both the phase and frequency counters can be implemented in hardware or software. The counter outputs are used to trigger the high power choppers - SCR's, IGFET's, etc. The 1's and 0's represent different polarities, so that the bipolar output has no wasted DC component.
Another advantage is that no timing circuitry is required as for quasi-linear (class D) methods. A 2000 rpm motor corresponds to 33.3 hz, which do not yield convenient values for timing circuits.
PWM was tricky years ago, with the right phase relationships, because you didn't have the computer power available cheap. Today, that's not an issue.
I wouldn't be surprised if traction drives switch tecniques at different times for whatever reason. But hearing a khz whine from a motor just screams PWM.
Right, this is how the chopper works, if you're using it to chop an AC waveform in order to drive a DC traction motor.
Choppers are also used to convert DC to AC but PWM is not employed. The 3-phase AC signals required for AC motors are digitally generated from DC by using modulo counters or dividers, either in hardware or within a computer program.
My understanding is that the basic Alstom traction package (like the ones used on British Rail 'Networkers') has the motor drinking sine-wave juice which is generated using pulse width modulation. If you have a DC supply (off the third rail) and you need an AC output (for the three-phase AC traction) then you'll pretty much have to do it this way. Jeff and you have already discussed whether you can drive an AC motor directly by chopping up DC voltages. I don't know the answer to that but that isn't how it's done, at least for this specific traction package.
The DC juice gets chopped up into little fragments at frequencies of up to 1,200Hz and the resulting (much lower frequency) AC current gets fed to the motors.
Are you suggesting that the voltage (up to 1,200 hz) and the (much lower frequency) AC current are different frequencies?
Yes, that is how PWM works in the context of generating a semi-smooth AC signal from DC. Essentially, you have control over pulsing signals on and off, but you need to generate a continuously-varying voltage signal. One way to do this is to pulse the signal very quickly, so that the pulses might have a frequency of 1,000Hz or more, but depending on how close the pulses are together, you can get different voltage levels, and you can get those voltage levels to coincide with say a 50Hz sine wave (if that is what you need to drive the traction motors at a certain speed).
Like I said, I thought that was what the webpage I posted earlier explained, but obviously technology has moved on and they drive the motors with just square waves now. I find that hard to believe, I still hear the varying-frequency whine with the latest Breda cars. But I will have to ask someone to see how that works -- your method, or this one I just discussed.
AEM7
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but you mentioned
Frequency Modulation before in conjunction with audio-frequency
track circuits. In a sense that's correct, but I would call
it Amplitude Modulation. In all of the audio-frequency track
circuit gear that I've seen, a constant-frequency carrier
is "coded" (i.e. Amplitude Modulated) by a much lower coding
frequency, typically 20-60 Hz. In some systems, different coding
frequencies can convey different indications, eliminating line
wire circuits. The same coding is picked up by the carborne
inductive loop receiver and decoded by the cab signal equipment.
Or, you can cheat and go fiber optic. No noise issues there. Good filtering of the signal boxen, and dropping the carrier frequency helps too, though if you drop the carrier frequency too low, the motors get noisy and make really funky noises. The last demo of this I saw, I swore the motor had bad bvearings, then they guy punched the inverter up a bit, and it did the AC whine that I'm familiiar with.
This is especially fun when you've got a fairly high density circuit board with digital stuff on it a few inches away...
Am I correct?
Unless you count Triscuits :)
The most optical I get is the ever popular optocoupler, which is great for isolation.
-Robert King
It'll be impossible. Firstly the reactance losses would be too great, especially at 600V, secondly the leakage to earth would be very problematic.
It just seems to be a logical step, the CSS&SB and IC electrified those lines in the days when AC traction was little more than constant speed motors where the speed was regulated by the frequency transmitted. That may work in the mountains, but it's not exactly an ideal situation for railroads such as the IC and CSS&SB to be in. Now the development of power electronics for AC traction technology has made it far superior to DC traction for propelling trains, thereby making it a logical upgrade. The South Shore has 10 substations alone, certainly that number could be significantly decreased through the use of more transmission-friendly 25kvAC power. Also wouldn't there be an increase in power at the rails, since AC transmits more efficiently than DC?
Not likely, given a report I recently read on reconstruction of the lines. Essentially, the cost of re-insulation is too high. Cheaper to rebuild substations and use thrystor rectifiers to output 1500V DC than to reinsulate the whole line. The rolling stock already takes 1500VDC and these days putting the transformer on board makes no sense. New stock will chop the 1500VDC for use in three phase AC motors.
AEM7
I posted this on nyc.transit about a year ago.
H is for my alma mater Harvard,
C is Central, next stop on the line,
K is for the cozy Kendall station, and
C is Charles that overlooks the brine.
P is Park, Park... Pahk Street, busy Boston center, and
W is Washington, you see...
Put them all together, they spell HCKC PW (imagine hocking a big one and spitting it)
Which is just about what Boston means to me!
I thought it was an amusing song...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
wayne
Victim recalls friendly chat, then gunshot
By Farah Stockman, Globe Staff, 11/12/2003
A week ago today, McFerson had just stepped off the No. 66 bus and run into two old friends when gunfire and chaos erupted in crowded Dudley Square. He instinctively bolted.
"Blam -- I never heard a sound like that in my life," said the 58-year-old Brighton man, the first of four people injured in the shooting to give an interview. "I thought it was a piece of construction material falling. Then I felt it. Then I ran. I fell, I ran again," he said. McFerson finally collapsed behind a police car.
"The bullet went in, traveled to the right, and came out. One shot, two holes," said McFerson, who was listed in satisfactory condition yesterday.
(Continued on Globe website)
N=2 over 3 years. Without demeaning the suffering of the victims, methinks you are being a little paranoid here (not to mention I would question the significance of your statristical methods).
AEM7
I would be more concerned, for example, if the area had a seriesxof purposeful shootings (for example, gang members fighting over established drug turf).
Quite the contrary. There have always been organized crime on the south side of Boston (which occasionally spilled over to the North side, for example the School shooting in Charlestown, the shooting in Arlington Taco Bell not long ago), but I have long argued that South side is as safe as North side because these are TARGETED shootings, and they happen to people in the underworld, and that your chances of getting caught in the crossfire is very small -- and even if you were, you would be spared the bullet unless you happen to look like someone they are aiming for. Since I don't do drugs, and I don't tend to upset people in my neighbourhood and have no possession worth any money, I was not afraid of the South side.
I am far more concerned about random shootings. These could happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. I'd say the sniper attacks in around Washington was much more scary than a gang-related incident of similar magnitude (i.e. 10 shot in a period of a month). Gangland shootings occasionally escalated to that level (10 fatalities per month) but were much less alarming than the random shooting of the same magnitude.
AEM7
The Mafia had a reputation for nice, neat shooting (not always deserved, by the way). Drug dealers will often cut down an entire sidewalk just to get the one guy they want, and stray bullets have killed children in first and second floor apartments.
I have gone into such neighborhoods alone without any problem, but I try to remain cognizant that there is a risk.
I'm not aware of any cases where such collateral damage had been fatal, other than cases where the shooter literally got the wrong person. Of the cases I remember at the top of my head, a 4-year-old black girl was killed some time ago when a gang-related shooter came into an apartment building and tried to kill someone who he believed lived there. He was stupid, he shot through a closed door. I am aware of several cases of stray bullet damages (for example, the kid that got shot in a Charlestown high school), but most were not life threatening.
Drug dealers will often cut down an entire sidewalk just to get the one guy they want
Ron, this sentence alone demonstrates your naivety. Drug dealers are not generally bad people. They do not like to kill people unless they have to, for a number of reasons: (1) The more people you kill, the more effort law enforcement would expend on catching you, and the less likely you'll be able to get away with it; (2) The more people you kill, the more the people in the community who knows you would be pissed off with you, and more likely to either turn you in or shoot you. In general, if you are doing bad things, you'll avoid killing random people unless they happen to be witness to a crime scene. Gangsters dislike creating bad karma especially in their own neighbourhood as much as you and I dislike not being social with your neighbours.
Just so you know -- they caught the people behind both of the cases I outlined. I am sure there are a lot of unsolved cases, but I believe a lot of cases remain unsolved because no one cares. "Bad Karma" cases, where the shooter clearly has no regard for the community, are likely to be solved pretty quickly.
AEM7
No, actually, it demonstrates your naivete and lack of experience in this country. You describe a rationality to drug dealing, which I agree does exist. However, there are many incompetent dealers, and there are criminal gangs who have acquired reputations for ruthless killing and high collateral damage.
"Gangsters dislike creating bad karma especially in their own neighbourhood as much as you and I dislike not being social with your neighbours. "
Actually, not consistently so. There have been multiple prosecutions in the Bronx of gang members who felt exactly the opposite.
I suggest you consult police department gang and drug unit officers to get a better picture of what goes on there. Boston Police has a particularly effective street crimes unit with much to teach you, and I know you will soak it up.
"I'm not aware of any cases where such collateral damage had been fatal, other than cases where the shooter literally got the wrong person."
A. You haven't been paying attention
B. Perhaps you're looking at one city only?
Boy, you are living in a dream world.
Drug dealers are known for protecting their turf. They have and do use heavy weaponry for the hits, and innocents get killed. They kill entire families that protest the drug trade in their neighborhoods, either by gunshot, or in a tragic case in Baltimore, by arson.
No, nobody in my immediate neighborhood has been shot, but less than 3 miles from my house, there have been killings done by drug gangs including cops.
You're showing off your inexperience.
Your estimate is way too low. That's why your statistics aren't right.
Also, even if shootings are totally random, SOME place in the country is likely to have a highly disproprtionate share. Maybe for the last few years it was Dudley Square. Maybe next year it'll be Kendall Square (just kidding).
:0)
Unfortunately the Orange line doesn't go through Dudley Square any more.
--Z--
On 11/13/1995 the fare was increased and the pentagon "5 boro" token was in used.
Source: http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/tokens/
I meant 8 years.
Thanks to those who pointed that out.
Quite unneccessary unless the train was less than a third filled. But strange characters people can be!!!! TOny
It's their problem, not yours. Mommy and Daddy didn't teach them manners...oh well.
VC Madman
Some people (not me) try that on the LIRR. Women seem to do it a lot more than men. It'll work if the train gets only moderately crowded, but not if it gets jammed.
I guess so! Why did you discriminate against the heavy lady? Maybe she's got a medical condition or even a psychological one like the one you claim to have. Besides, it's likely that she's a taxpayer and supports helps support your lifestyle - even if it's unwillingly.
You have a point, but I must note that something I see frequently on the LIRR is just as bad, if not worse. You have a very crowded train, with the only remaining seats some of the middle ones on the 3-across sides. I have deduced that the 3-across seats follow the 450/600 rule: if the combined weights of the three riders is less than 450 pounds, it's okay; if the combined weights are between 450 and 600 pounds, things get progressively tighter but remain sort of tolerable; and finally, if the combined weights exceed 600 pounds, it will be sheer Hell on Earth.
Two people of average or greater size are sitting in the aisle and window seats. Another largish person insists on plopping his suit-covered anus in the middle seat even though there's clearly too little room and the combined weights will be pushed way over 600 pounds, thereby guaranteeing a miserable ride for three people. That's rudeness, plain and simple. Sometimes standing is the easiest way out.
By the way, in almost a decade of daily commuting on Metro-North and now the LIRR, I have never sat in a middle seat, except on a couple occasions when travelling with family members. If middle seats are all that's left, I stand.
I never take the middle seat either. It's the aisle or the window for me all the way...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The LIRR had an opportunity to do so with the M-7's, but instead did just about the worst possible thing - it kept the 3+2 seating, and to make it easier for wheelchairs to navigate the aisles shrank the already-too-small seats.
Mark
Now that's a mixed metaphor!
Mark
If it was an electric guitar with pick ups you just added another layer to it.
Mark
But don't fret, I could play a guitar to save my life. On the right days I might be able to smash one pretty good...
Sometimes I almost agree with the nuts who say this place should be like BTCO or the Strappiesboard, with an edit post feature.
Then I stop and want to grab their necks again. (sorry, I needed a guitar thing)
Elias
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sometimes I think SEPTA has a secret no-smiling-on-the-train rule that they've somehow figured out how to enforce much more effectively that they've ever tried to enforce the bans on eating, drinking, and smoking.
Mark
BTW, one of the books on the history of the rails (I'll try to find it) talks about the tradition (which began on the LIRR) of getting up and giving the middle seat, rather than just scooting over and giving away the aisle seat. Once trained, New Yorkers are unselfish about their personal space, but not THAT unselfish.
Many people do use the middle seat ... too many, in my opinion. I'm somewhat unusual in my no-middle-seat policy.
Something they will have to start doing maybe, so that the isle may be more handicapped accessible.
Elias
**I hate them from a railfaner prospective, but they are a complete winner from a passenger/commuter prospective. There's not much I can say bad about them aside from the automated announcements always seeming to be either broken, or not on at all. And we won't discuss the engines, that's another story.
I've very rarely seen an aisle-seat occupant scoot over into the middle seat.
Heh, I have almost never seen someone on the LIRR give up
an aisle for a middle seat. In fact, I don't think I have ever even sat in the middle seat myself. It's bad enough you have to do that on planes where I have done it countless many times, obviously no choice. The sick part is that it is probably more comfortable on the LIRR to sit in the middle than on a plane. The seats are narrower on a plane, and instead of sitting in the middle for an hour on the LIRR, it is usually 5 or 6 hours when I take a plane, oh the horror of just thinking baout that!
You should fly Southwest some time, if you haven't done so already. They have no reserved seating, instead boarding passengers in groups of 40 and allowing them to take any seats they can find. Group-by-group boarding cards are given out at the gate starting one hour before departure. People customarily will start queuing up long before that, hoping to be in the first group of 40 and getting a better choice of seats. Once onboard the aircraft, people do LIRR-style Baby Elephant Walks as they promenade down the aisle in search of non-middle seats.
Southwest has used this system ever since it began flying 30 years ago. It didn't matter so much at first, as most flights were quite short and people didn't care so much about getting decent seats. Today, Southwest flies some much longer routes, including transcons, but it still sticks with the original no-reserved-seats system. Management must follow the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it approach, which makes sense considering that Southwest is arguably the most successful airline in the world.
On a similar note, I also hate when there is a semi-empty train, and someone insists on sitting right next to you, when there is plenty of seats available where they wouldn't have to be right on top of you. Or even worse, when you are in one of the end "love-seats", and there are plenty of seats available, but someone insists on sitting right next to you there. It's fine on a crowded train, but when the train is half empty, I prefer to keep my space comfortable. Now if it's a cute little, well, mystical or otherwise, that is probably a different story....
I SALUTE those people. They know that two stops away the train will be packed, and they sit in the more comfortable loveseat than in the middle of some long bench.
Maybe you gotta take the initiative and sit yourself next to some cute chix.
I also think you should spread your sights a little wider and consider chix of the non-mystical persuasion, but that's another issue for another time.
Actually, my problem with coats is that I often get hot on the train, so I take it off for a more comfortable ride. Then the train gets crowded, and if I'm still working, I end up balancing a notebook on top of a textbook on top of a bag on top of a coat on top of my lap. And then I reach my stop, and I have to somehow get up without dropping everything, for fear of upsetting my neighbor's coffee.
Fortunately, with my commute, the train usually doesn't get crowded until the last few stops, by which point I've usually gotten far enough ahead that I can safely put my books away and put on my coat.
I don't know what negative signals you may have seen. People may have a really negative attitude. But my attitude is that I can put my stuff on extra seat, and of course I will move it reasonably promptly as soon as asked.
But I also won't risk my health by moving like a maniac. Not transit related, but I once had a knee problem and a patron at Carnegie Hall was so impatient she banged against my knee to get by me before I had a chance to get up and give her space to get by.
Your point is a good one: I may want a seat, but should I crash into your sore knees and bump your head with my backpack just to get in it?
Courtesy on the train goes both ways.
--Z--
GUESS WHAT? The woman told me they wanted the 5 train, not because of a better chance of getting a seat but because the 5 was express and was faster than the 4 (???). I replied "well if the 5 train was faster than the 4, it would rear-end the 4 train and cause a massive collision." (They run on the same track, eh?).
And I feel for the C/R's who have to put up with this, people blocking doors for no reason when a better way can be achieved.
That response was very sarcastic and disrespectful. As railfans we are supposed to be helpful. We are supposed the know the system
better than the people who work there (sort of).
You should have just told them that the 4 and 5 run on the same track.
NOW you know why Hobbits do not 'come of age' until they are 33!
: ) Elias
Heh. Jes' remember, brothers, you'll be dem, and dey was you. Comes around, goes around. Get ready.
That's funny; it always seems to me that SubTalk is overrun with teenagers who obess over car numbers, change destination signs, and steal things.
I really wasn't either back then. I do remember a lot, and the seeds were probably planted, but I didn't really start railfanning until around 1989. Before that, of course I have many memories of the subway, but they were just "riding" memories, not "railfanning" memories. I remember all the cars (current and past) from before 1990, but I had no idea an R16 for example was an R16 when I was riding them (nor did I care). It could have been called D-48 for all I knew. As for you remembering pre-GOH details, that may be because you grew up on an IRT line. I grew up on the BMT, so remember the cars there and what they looked like, but really don't really remember the pre-GOH IRT "future-redbirds" too well. Again, all these memories are not from railfannning, just from riding as a kid.
CG
CG
But in the 1980s I probably wouldn't have done it.
And for the record I find nothing wrong with the original poster's joke, and probably would have said something like that myself in that situation...
I don't know how old you are Allan but you sound like some ageist bigot (like your crony RonInBayside).
Maybe Kool-D is sarcastic and disrespectful because of his race, or his religion, or his socioeconomic class.
Of course, it's OK to be prejudiced against people with fewer Frequent Orbital Miles than you, but not those with a different number of melanocytes, genes in the 23rd chromosome pair or different understandings of the nature of the universe.
North of Freeman St - North of 3rd Av 149th St, Track 2 (S/B).
Track M is out of service pending switch removal (in progress) south of Prospect Av. New signals to go into service on this track shortly.
-Stef
A new switch was installed closer to my home station at Jackson Av.
>>More importantly, why was that switch there to begin with?
The old switch was intended for emergency reroutes as needed. The new switch at Jackson will enable trains to access the middle track without reversing into the middle at Prospect or skipping stations in the event single track operation takes effect.
-Stef
They should leave it there.
The New York Times is too damned big to read comfortably on a crowded train or subway!
The New York Times needs a "commuter" edition... much smaller and easier to read.
I rarely read the NYT so I have never attempted it.
That's my guess.
If true, welcome! It gets stuffy on this site without you.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What you describe is an ideal way for people who have a lot of unexpressed hostility to vent, in a socially acceptable way. Without the Times, there would be a lot more people getting pushed in front of trains.
It is perfectly possible to read the Times without ever sticking an elbow in someone else's eye. When I was in PS249 we got the Times delivered to us each morning, starting in the 4th grade. The first thing the teachers did each year was to show us how to fold and turn the paper.
I don't know if you can picture it, but it's like this: You take the section you want to look at, then you unfold so it's full size. Then you fold it in half vertically and you fold the lower half under. In this position you can now read all the stories on the front page in a smaller-than-tabloid size, just flipping it around.
The big trick is when you want to read inside the section. You unfold the bottom half of the paper, and (keeping the paper folded vertically) you fold back half of the page while you thumb through to find the page you want. You then fold the paper back onto itself and read to your heart's content.
Except when you're changing pages, you never have more than 1/4 of the full broadsheet page in front of you/
This is a lot easier to show than to describe. But I've seen plenty of people with the Daily News or the Post spread all over the place. If you think learning the ancient art of Timesagami (Japanese newspaper folding) is too difficult, remember that many classes of 9-year-olds have learned it, and so can you.
[mandatory site relevance]
when printing articles about subways and other news stories. It doesn't look as sharp as it used to.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually I don't like the Times' decision to go all-Cheltenham for column heads, etc
Right! I didn't know the new font's name (or the old font's name, come to think of it); but I noticed that the Times had changed to a font that is a lot less robust.
I hate these gratuitous font changes and "soupings-up" that befall perfectly good logos and graphic designs.
* Slantiness. Why did the Subway sandwich shop logo have to go "slanty"? What was wrong with it the old, straight-up-and-down way? Nothing, that's what! (I am glad that the sign on *my* Subway shop, on Woodhaven Blvd. at Jamaica Ave., still has the older, nicer logo.)
* Drop shadows. Ugh. Want to cry? Look at the Mets' or Cincinnati Reds' uniforms from ten years ago. They were beautiful -- crisp colors on white. Today, those uniforms (as well as too many others) are polluted with that drop-shadow nonsense. A blurry mess.
* Faux 3-D. Many logos, including the current MTA logo and the Toronto Blue Jays' new one, are rendered in this ugly style, which pointlessly attempts, by means of fine lines, shadowing, and size changes, to simulate a nonexistent third dimension.
What, is 2-D now shameful or something? Why is that "MTA" on the logo falling into that blue hole? Wouldn't it be better if it were just sitting there nice and straight, so it could be read without making you lose your balance? The current logo suggests a scenario in which the letters, as they are are being dragged down a hallway to a near-fatal beating, are dramatically and poignantly shouting back at the viewer, "Em Tee Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay".
The morons who design such things should be beaten with a 2x4x2 (with all dimensions intact).
Ferdinand Cesarano
I try to download the NYT, wi-fi, and this is obviously the cheapest alternative for the NYT (they still get to push ads), but it's too slow to work effectively, and T-Mobile won't work in GCT. When they get it working, however, the elbowing problem will be solved.
Newsday can be pretty darn thick now and then but you can comfortably read it on the train.
Of course the Times has a 153 year tradition to stick to and they'd never do it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Every Norton Nork segment ended with the narrator saying, "Norton Nork, you've done it again !"
Sample Hambone recitation :
"In days of old, when knights were bold, their suits were steel, their pants were cold !"
The Big Professor would always forget his book and have to come back for it. Once, presumably, he was so embarrassed, Channel 5 WNEW newsman "Uncle" Fred Scott (a thin man who always seemed to wear a bowtie and a plaid jacket) came back and got it instead !
Channel 5 had on a great bunch of kids shows on in those days, plus all of the Warner Bros.' cartoons. I never watched any other station then.
The train was jam packed....crush load down the aisle, and some putz in the aisle decided to start reading the NY Times. Of course, with all the folding, unwrapping, etc. The paper's bottom started hitting the shoulder of a passenger in the lower compartment around Freeport. About the time the train started slowing for Bellmore, the guy in the lower compartment took out his cigarette lighter and torched the aisle rider's NY Times...he didn't even see it coming.
You never saw a carload of passengers exit one of those double deckers so fast when it stopped at Bellmore!!!!
It can be found here .
Hopefully it works
This is what I live for...
Hint: It has to do with your N train, better make you plane reservations now.
It's BIG, it's BLUE, and it's been under reconstructive surgery for the past 15+ years.
And neither do I.
Til Next Time
First train of the morning rush hour on Monday morning, Feb. 23.
Too bad they can't extend the N to California...
Don't forget White Castle hamburgers!
So most fast food places are not certified Kosher and that's why they will not eat at those establishments.
#3 West End Jeff
Possibility of the current pick being extended beyond 2/22/04. Don't go making plans just yet.
****RUMOR****
(And, yup, I'm making fun of your typo...) :)
Better call Batman. After all this is Gotham City, isn't it?
--Mark
So you are saying that the R-44 will last for at least 64 years?
Not on the A; isn't that a seniority line? Three trips on the C, maybe.
Anyway, BMTman was accounted for today on a set of R-42s, which surprisingly still had all its numberboards.
R68s are one of the best performing cars in the system.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Then again, it could have been anything in the 5500s and 5900s, they ALWAYS seem to have the worst chimes...ROFL, and I love it, especially hearing them together...
Incognito
Transportation Photographer
cleanairbus@yahoo.com
#3 West End Jeff
R-32.
Til Next Time
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Unlimited Ride MetroCards Not Yet in Business At PATH
Regards,
Jimmy
Because it's not supposed to work. They probably still haven't figured out how to split the revenue. Plus they may make a higher priced unlimited card that allows both PATH and NYCT, leaving the $70 card for only NYCT. We already know that the $70 card won't work for AirTrain.
The MTA turnstiles are all online so that unlimited ride metrocards can be validated and the 18 minute rule enforced. And, these days, lost monthlys cancelled.
If the initial implementation of the PATH turnstiles is offline, just using the stored-value information on the metrocards, they probably wont be able to accept unlimiteds. That could be part of the were working on it.
The eventual conversion of PATH to metrocard will probably take longer rather than shorter because of all the work necessary. Will they have to replace all the NJ Transit ticket vending machines (again) for example?
If the initial implementation of the PATH turnstiles is offline, just using the stored-value information on the metrocards, they probably wont be able to accept unlimiteds. That could be part of the were working on it.
How is one possible without the other? All that is needed for unlimited acceptance is a clock. Besides, the MTA isn't going to let anyone get away with an "offline" Metrocard system, people will abuse it left and right.
How? The MTA already has an offline Metrocard system on the buses.
Metrocard swiping is read/write: at least for pay-per-ride. The ride value is deducted from the card each time it is swiped.
The buses synchronize with the central server when they're in the depot. And they accept unlimiteds and transfers too.
Regards,
Jimmy
thanks Matt
Like this, please: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cdiesel02nov03,0,2303319.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla
Gotta love the sales pitch by the media, eh? “Without locomotives,” it makes it sound like driving an automobile with no engine. Also, that comment about “some European countries” using DMUs is a grave understatement, for many of them do. Another one is the understated comment about the RDC being an “older version” when it is indeed a DMU through and through.
Also, the people in Orange County will be sorry that they defeated that sales tax measure to help pay for commuter rail, because even if I-4 was widened, the traffic situation will never improve. Just the way things are when it comes to highways.
I've come to the conclusion that the people in orange county hate waiting more than 5 minutes in line, or using a dial-up modem, but have zero problem sitting in traffic for over a half hour to clear an intersection. No matter what they do, it will still cost over 1.6 billion per highway lane to build, and I-4 will always be at a C or lower level of service. But they will all complain about $400 mil for light rail, or $60 for commuter rail.
I guess the numbers don't lie when they talk about avg SAT and education scores there...they are morons. They keep paying taxes for other systems. :)
Of course, I'm talking about the uptown (6) between Grand Central - 42 Street and 68 Street - Hunter College. I ride that every morning, and it's quite a spectacle to see. It's rediculous how crowded those trains get! And there are people arguing AGAINST a Second Avenue subway!
So anyway, I'm at Lexington Avenue - 59 Street this morning, standing by the conductor's marker, when the (6) pulls in. Naturally, the (6) is ALREADY nearly filled to the brim with people, and then the mob at 59 Street tries to stampede on. I had plenty of time to spare, so I backed off and let everyone kill each other. I know there'll be another train in about 2 or 3 minutes anyway.
So that (6) is now completely packed, with people just BARELY within the doors as they're closing. The C/R had to open and close them a few times to get everyone to pull their bags in, etc. Then suddenly, he fully opens the doors again. I look to my left, and at the last door of the C/R's car, there's a stubborn man in his 40s or 50s, who's only about 15% on the train, and he's holding the doors open. Where the hell did he think he was going?? There was no place for him to move to, but he just stood there as if people were magically going to disappear. The C/R tried closing the doors three more times, but the man wouldn't budge. I wasn't about to take this standing up; I had someplace to get to, and I needed that next train to come in! I was about to stomp over to the guy and give him a LOUD earful about subway courtesy, when the C/R intervened and finally announced: "To the guy holding the doors, I have tried to close the doors THREE TIMES already. PLEASE STEP OFF THE TRAIN AND LET GO OF THE DOORS!!!"
The guy backed off.
This happens on the <7> in the morning rush, too. The train gets a good crowd of people loaded at the station, and when the C/R tries to close the doors, there's always a few people who JUST got up to the platform, and MUST board the train already there! So they quickly jab there hands into the door, and stand there, staring at the C/R, expecting him to re-open the doors. The C/R won't, of course. He just quickly opens and closes the doors to try and get the guy to stop from holding them. Sometimes, this delays us from leaving the station for up to 45 seconds while we sit there and the C/R plays cat and mouse with the annoying door holder.
I swear, next time I'm standing there and some idiot keeps his hand in the door for more than 20 seconds, I'm giving that hand a HARD kick. That'll teach 'em.
You aint the only one gonna be doin that. I've seen this before. If I were you, I woulda gone up to the guy holding the doors, grabbed him, and pulled him off the subway and yelled to the C/R to close the doors quick. If the guy has beef wit me, maybe a lil beat down would be in order. Usually I aint violent, but when these assholes hold up morning commuters, that side just takes over.
til next time
HAHAHAHA!!!! There we go! 8-)
I have already thought of a solution.
Inside of each leaf there are 1/2" metal pipes that close at the same rate as the door. (so usually they are never seen or noticed.)
But if someone holds the door from closing, the leaf and the two or three pipes that are blocked will open up again, but the rest of the pipes are closed and locked and will remain so.
The person can then step free from the doors which then can be closed again, but in no way can they get onto that car.
Elias
Imagine that there are say ten such bars running the length of the door.
If the door closes like a subway car door, the bars are moving with the door, and so are not seen.
If the door is held the bars will continue to close. Come will be blocked by an arm or a bag or something, but the rest of them will close.
The leaf, and the bars that didnot close will open up again so that the goose can extracate himself, but the other seven or eight bars remain closed and locked so that the miscreant cannot benefit from his atempt at holding the doors.
Elias
I am no engineer, but if your idea (individually retractible horizontal bars embedded in the retractible doors) can be made to work, it should be quite effective; no less so than a turnstile. Perhaps you should apply for a patent.
Sounds like a great way to drag a number of unlucky passengers off the end of the platform.
Liability is not your friend.
How so. The train cannot leave until all of the doors are closed and locked. If there is an obstruction, the doors will not close, but the bars will block the doorway from being used.
The miscreant can then either give up and withdraw, or may patiently await the arival of the police.
Elias
The basic problem is that the TA does not run enough Lex Avenue Locals in the uptown direction during rush hour. The operate only 16 tph between 7:45 and 8:45. The situation would be better, if you could wait until all the trains from the Bronx got into Manhattan and came back uptown. They operate 24 tph in the uptown direction between 8:45 and 9:45.
I backed off and let everyone kill each other. I know there'll be another train in about 2 or 3 minutes anyway.
Ah! There you have it -- the explanation for every door-holder: a person who has no such confidence that "there'll be another train in about 2 or 3 minutes anyway."
This person almost certainly has in his/her memory the traumatizing experience of barely missing a train, and then waiting 20 minutes for the next one, thereby being late for work or for some other important meeting.
A wait of this kind may be a rare event during rush hour; but, it only needs to happen once to any given person in order to turn that person into a lifetime door-holder.
The only reasonable solution is to have signs in every station that state how many minutes behind the next train is. This would address the problem of door-holding at its roots.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Also, on a side note - I know virtually nothing about the history of the Boston rapid transit system. Did BER control the elevated lines (like the Blue Line) prior to the MTA? I realize the name implies that, but I wanted to be sure...
Frank Hicks
BER controlled the Main Line Elevated (Orange Line), the Atlantic Avenue El, the Harvard-Ashmont Line (Red), and the Green Line surface cars. I believe the Blue Line was an old Interurban that was known as tha "Boston & Lynn Narrow Gauge Rwy" or something of that elk. MTA took over (as the MTA, not as the BER) when Boston & Lynn filed for abandonment, and converted it to a standard gauge operation.
AEM7
The Blue Line was also controlled by the Elevated. It ran between Bowdin and Maverick. The line was later extended by the MTA to Wonderland via narrow gauge railway row between 1952 and 1954.
Underground hero
Brooklyn: On Monday, while I was waiting for the downtown 4/5 train at Fulton St., a woman on the opposite platform fell facedown onto the tracks because she was leaning over too far. While everyone else stood in shock, a good Samaritan jumped down and picked her up. People on the platform pulled both of them to safety. She didn't look like she was hurt, and luckily the train was not coming. My hat is off to the man who rescued her. God bless you.
Mary Ann De Luca
That's nice to hear!
Well in this case, it's probably best if fifteen people didn't jump down to the trackbed to try and help the woman out. One or two would suffice.
They're still brooding over what happened to Kitty Genovese?
Elias
That is not completely true, it is based on caring for oneself first, for others second. When I have children, this will change, but I would still care for myself or my family more than for some stranger.
And this comes from a lack of some quality discipline...
No it doesn't, it comes from NATURE. Creatures that don't care for themselves and for the lives of their offspring FIRST die off. It is not in my best interest to shorten my life to allow someone else to live. I'd be dead, what good is that for me? I won't go to any "heaven."
The problem with religious morality is that you only act morally because you fear punishment. Since I have no punishment to fear, my own sense of morality is based entirely on acting how I would want others to act when it comes to me. I do not expect some stranger to sacrifice his own life to save my own.
Actually, the two are independent. You can act morally without fearing punishment, and you can act immorally even when you fear punishment, a lot of people do.
Firstly, if you choose to believe in a religion, you don't have to believe in every part of it. For instance, I believe there is a God, and He did create the World, and man in His own image. But on the other hand, I believe that when man dies, bacteria and fungus take over, and man simply rots and go back to being part of the biomass of the Earth again. So, my understanding of morality is pretty close to that of yours (i.e. that my morals are based on how I would expect others to act), but at the same time I have a religious conviction.
Secondly, even if you choose to believe in all of a religion and fear punishment, you do not always act morally. Witness the large number of Al-Quida operatives that are blowing up planes and cars, the Catholics that routinely engage in sex-before-marriage, prostitution, child molestation and other mortal sins, as well as the Buddists that routinely engage in material affluence and luxury.
Religion has nothing to do with morality, or the fear of punishment.
AEM7
As Bertrand Russell noted, religion isn't the only way to organize your life.
That is exactly why I said it was wrong. A suicide bomber's moral principles are that he (or she) will be rewarded in the afterlife for their heinous actions, because that is what their leaders tell them.
Catholics that routinely engage in sex-before-marriage, prostitution, child molestation and other mortal sins, as well as the Buddists that routinely engage in material affluence and luxury.
Those things (except for child molestation) aren't wrong, they're simply wrong because the religion says it is. Although I still would consider a prostitute and a john to be degenerates, that should be their choice what they want to do.
Religion has nothing to do with morality, or the fear of punishment.
That is true, but I was not going after religion or the belief in a higher power, but rather those who say that all atheists, agnostics or deists are immoral because they don't have a deity guiding them.
I should add that if you don't take care of yourself, how would you be able to take care of others?
Translated into certain situations, it means "How are you going to help this guy if all you do is become an additional victim?"
Before you mention the WTC, I don't think many people thought that the towers would collapse like they did, the threat was not perceived to be as high as it actually was.
Without doubt. Note that as soon as the South Tower fell, the firefighters in the North Tower were ordered to leave immediately even though there were many people still trapped inside. Firefighters and other rescuers are expected to take risks, significant risks if there are lives at stake, but they are not expected to go on suicide missions.
Exactly my point. Discipline carries someone away from the current viewpoint to care for yourself only. People without discipline tend to drift into immorality more. It is human nature to sin, but the lesson to keep from sinning comes through discipline.
I didn't say caring for yourself was bad. I said if someone cares for him/herself only that is where moral issues arise.
Geez, what kind of crusader are you? I thought you were like a 16-year-old young man. You shouldn't be crusading and you should be out enjoying life, getting drunk and getting laid...
AEM7
:0)
Yes, but self-discipline can be learned and practiced in frameworks other than religion. It is not necessary to believe in God or Gods to be ethical and responsible.
And generally, once the first person starts to help, many others will join in.
Right. The correct procedure is to wave something (preferably a torch) at the oncoming train, while standing on the platform at a location close to the approaching side.
Would it be better to go along the catwalk to the 3rd-rail shutoff switch, the one marked by a blue light?
Now if you explain where the 'catwalk' is, then I would know how to stop someone who is being electrocuted on the 3rd rail from totally charring the next time I see a person fallen onto the 3rd rail. Not that I have ever seen a person fallen that way, or fallen into the pit for that matter, but I like to learn :-)
AEM7
This link will detail the process to formally open the SJLRTS, now under a new name: RIVER LINE.
Also the River Line runs from Hackensack to Albany.
Chuck Greene
Camden
Camden
Rancocas Creek bridge
Of course, I'm always in favor of anyone or anything that lights a fire under SEPTA's bloated butt.
Mark
The R7 will still be a better option for many people since the R7 makes a direct Trenton to Center City Philadelphia Connection. The R7 is also full railroad service compared to the River Line being light rail.....there will be at least 20 trenton to camden stops on the river line compared to only 10 between downtown philly and trenton on the R7
I counted 20 stations, but I suppose if one wishes to be accurate, the Trenton or Waterfront station would be the start, with 19 stops to follow.
I'll ride on the first or second day.
Headway will be 15 minutes during rush hour, 30 minutes most of the time.
Burlington City will be of interest with the track in the middle of the street.
So what? It is the *first*train*ever*
Today [Yesterday] in Transportation History
1831 - The John Bull, the oldest operable steam engine in the US, is placed in regular service on the Camden & Amboy Railroad.
http://www.150.si.edu/chap4/bull.htm
That can be shortened to CamTren.
Wrong. Mostly, they're the same tracks. In a few places the Conrail and Light Rail tracks are parallel.
There's no parallel track here. The freight siding connects with the shared single track.
By The Way
During the Rush 205 to 59- 27 Minutes
During Other Times 40 Minutes
Local All Way- 50 Minutes!
You think it's nothing, but no, I won't let it happen. You got a C train, peteition for a K train then!
is 3 minutes for some bronx riders worth the same amount as 10-45 minutes for the upper west siders who seem to ride the subway more on weekends?
In a recent thread, you decried 59 Tower for having late night D's connect with A's at both 125 and 59. Here you say you don't want the D to run local at night. So what is it that you do want? Here are the three options: (a) Send everything local. CPW passengers get direct service to 6th, 8th, Washington Heights, and Concourse, and get double service along CPW itself. (b) Send the A local and the D express, with the connections you decry. CPW passengers get direct service to 8th and Washington Heights and timed transfers to 6th and Concourse. (c) Send the A local and the D express, with connections at only one point. Through Concourse-6th passengers save 3 minutes and CPW-6th passengers lose 17.
Option (c) isn't an option. If you find a 3-minute wait while sitting on an R-68 a pain, imagine a 17-minute wait while standing on a platform. Or do some people count more than others?
This isn't a matter of borough warfare. This isn't a matter of anybody screwing anybody else. The subway is a tool, and an express is one manifestation of that tool that's helpful in some cases but harmful in others. Would the late night and weekend D move passengers better as an express or as a local? That's the only relevant question. Address the question.
N Bwy
I ride 6 days a week, every week.
I don't deny the fact: weekend "C" service is worse than getting a colonoscopy. The C could use an improvement from 168th, all the way to Euclid, not just on CPW.
Considering only 4 stations south of 59th on the D I don't think anyone would need those 3 guesses.
N Broadway
N/1 Broadway Line
If you really want an express down CPW, transfer to the A. It's not that hard.
Some Concourse passengers (specifically, that fraction bound for points along the D route south of Columbus Circle) want CPW express service, because it saves them 3 minutes.
All CPW passengers need CPW local service, or they'll never get anywhere.
Of course C trains need to be increased during the weekend daytime before deciding what to do with the B/D. During the summer I would try limited weekend B service(Brighton Beach and possibly Yankee Stadium on game days). I would try some more weekend G.O.s to have some Ds run local
Also 3 minutes is a lot of time to be saved, I know the last <6> train helped me to make a bus connection that I would have not made if I were on the (6)(the wait can be up to 15 minutes sometimes).
Nobody's suggesting that 3 minutes isn't substantial (it is for some people; it isn't for others). The question is whether eliminating that 3-minute savings would create greater time savings for even more people.
Increasing C service still doesn't give direct access between CPW and 6th or Concourse, and it yields more service than is warranted below 59th. Bumping the D to the local track improves service exactly where service needs to be improved and provides direct Concourse-CPW-6th service to boot.
Just make sure that the GO runs if signs are posted. One weekend a while back, the NB D was supposed to run local because the C was running express. The GO ran on Saturday, and signs were posted at local stations. Sunday evening I (along with another thread participant) was on a NB D that arrived at 59th on the local track, across from an A. Next stop 72nd? Nope! The GO had apparently ended early, and we were put on the local track only to slither past the A.
There's no point in switching to the express at 125th. (That's not to say it never happens!) Even without switching, it takes longer to get from 125th to 145th on the express than on the local, including the stop at 135th.
I agree with your post, except for this point. I think that C service increases would be very welcome in Brooklyn.
(I ride the C in Brooklyn on Sundays on occasion, but not with any great frequency, so I'd be willing to accept that my limited sample size is leading to an inaccurate conclusion. NB C's are mostly empty in Brooklyn, start to attract passengers around Broadway-Nassau, and fill up at Columbus Circle.)
N Bwy
wayne
Also, upcoming rehabs on the Brighton line make weekend express service undesireable.
Besides, there isn't demand for two Brighton services on weekends, nor is there demand for tour CPW services on weekends. The only question is whether it would serve the ridership as a whole better if the three weekend CPW services should run as two locals and an express or as two expresses and a local.
Look also here
I recall the outcry when the 2 and 4 became overnight locals -- where's the outrage at this proposal?
CG
The 2 starts its local service too early though
CG
At least all of the other expresses end at or around midnight.
The last "4" express leaves its northern terminal at 12:04 am, the "2" express leaves its northern terminal at 11:38 pm and the last "3" leaves at 11:06 pm.
Even the "3" express is later than the "A".
When the "A" becomes a local, except for the Central Park West portion, there is no alternative express.
When it skips stops in the Bronx it is a thru express
Yes, the F in Queens.
CG
1.What color were the older subway cars before they started to look brown?
2.Is the NY Underground the same show as the Ultimate Ride?
3.Who were the subtalkers on the ultimate ride?
4.What line does the D train run on?
Thanks a lot!
PS, the D runs on the Concourse line in the Bronx, the 8th Ave. line to Columbus Circle, the 6th Ave. line to 34th st., and starting when the Manhattan Bridge reopens in Feb., will run to Brooklyn, I believe on the West End line to Coney Is.
2) The Ultimate Ride was a segment to the NY Underground.
3) I can recall a few- R30(Lincoln), Chris Rivera, forgot the others-sorry 'bout that guys.
4) The D line currently runs from 205 Street-Bainbridge Ave via Grand Concourse, 8 Ave, St Nicholas Ave, Central Park West, 53 Street, and 6 Ave(Ave of Americas) to 34 Street-Herald Square. By next year, the D will resume to Coney Island by it's new home route in Brooklyn, the West End Line.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Jimmy
This is the only place I've ever seen a 9-car marker.
If I end up on a R32 thru 63 St, I'll be sure to pay extra attention.
By the way, the 9 car marker is on the middle "barrier" between the tracks. It's not attached above the platform.
--Z--
Then there's the [3 CAR] sign on the SB Local track just north of 33rd Street/Park Av station. But at least that one is kinda useful.
Chuck
They sure do not have a subway (German: U-Bahn) in Bremen - I would know about that since I live there :p
You're currently living in Bremen?
Looked the cars like that?
The basic services have been announced: B weekdays between BPB/145 and Brighton Beach via Brighton express; D all times between 205 and Stillwell via West End; M cut back to Chambers middays; N express in Manhattan weekdays and via bridge all times except nights (with weekend and night service north of Pacific restored); Q exactly as now (service to Stillwell restored later in 2004); W weekdays between Astoria and Whitehall, local.
Really, the only questions are how the D and N will run through DeKalb and on 4th Avenue nights and weekends. My guess is that the N will run express (including bypass) weekends but not nights, and the D will only run express on weekdays.
At the public meeting at Long Island University, I asked an MTA planner about this. He said the D would stop at DeKalb late nights only, and would bypass DeKalb on weekends. That's bad news for weekend Brighton riders, who will have to transfer at Atlantic/Pacific or Herald Square to reach 6th Avenue.
I didn't ask about the N.
In fact, I suspect that, even if the D bypasses DeKalb on weekends at first, that will change with the following pick, if not sooner. And once it's stopping at DeKalb, it might as well run local on 4th Avenue.
If the N bypasses DeKalb, 4th Avenue passengers can still catch it at Pacific and Brighton passengers already have direct Broadway access via the Q, so that's no big loss.
Yes. He was sympathetic, and said that they tried to schedule it with the D stopping at DeKalb, but that there would be so much weekend service that the track capacity wouldn't allow for smooth operation with the D stopping at DeKalb. Late nights, with less service, it isn't a problem.
Northbound, we want the D to shortly follow the Q (so Brighton-6th passengers have an easy transfer). So schedule the Q at DeKalb at :x0 and the D at DeKalb at :x3. The Q and N can't conflict, so have the N meet the D at Pacific (the D would run local) and pass through DeKalb at :x3. If the D is running local, we can't have the R conflict, so schedule it to meet the Q at DeKalb (i.e., it would march up 4th 3 minutes ahead of the D).
So there are basically two recurring events at DeKalb: Q/R and D/N. The 3 minutes could be expanded to 5 minutes, yielding a less tight schedule, if we don't mind forcing Brighton-6th passengers to wait 5 minutes for their connection. I don't see the problem.
Southbound is a little more hairy, since N trains have to merge with D/R trains at 36th (R layups block the southbound express track south of 36th on weekends, and the switch is north of 36th). In effect, the N would have to pass the D it met at Pacific but not catch up with the R in front of it. But that should be easily manageable at weekend headways.
(If the D, N, Q, and R don't share a headway, then everything becomes much more complicated.)
Am I being too optimistic? Might it not be worth a trial? The trial could be run (without passengers on the "D") a week or two before revenue service begins on the north side, although by then it's probably too late to change the schedules.
I salute your civic-mindedness. Thank you!
BTW, where can one also obtain a few MTA patches (again without drawing much attention from the NYPD, or any other type of law enforcement)?
Thanks in advance.
The Transit Museum Gift Shop used to sell patches, but due to the events of 9/11/01, that was discontinued. I still have some patches that I bought some time ago. As for the roll signs, you can go to the MTA Web Site and the roll sign set goes for about $300. Nothing is ever given away free by the MTA anymore.
Regards,
Jimmy
(without drawing attention from the NYPD, or any other type of law enforcement)?
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
The prices can range there from about $25 and up for single roll to in the hundreds for an entire side sign assembly.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Stef
Regards,
Jimmy ;)
Many things have happened in 4 years.
Regards,
Stef
Regards,
Jimmy
-Stef
The only problem I see with the SJRR is that most people will need to go to Camden to catch it which will involve taking PATCO cause there's no safe parking in Camden. The Rand TC is an absolute pit and the SJRR station is beyond its protective walls. All it will take is a few late nite shootings and the service is doomed.
All things considered I think its a pretty good trade off. How much if your safety worth? $5.90?
There's lots of cheapos around(I must've written dozens of price/time comparasions to get form point A-Point B), but these two are going to be different classes of service. I haven't yet counted # of stops, and time duration between the two either. But a silverliner for that whole route should be smoother than the river line will be I would assume.
Maybe the state police can take over Camden again during that week of february to make sure it's safe for the grand opening.
The citizens of Camden feel the same way.
"Why you...!"
"BOINK!"
The River Line won't run late night. Last train leaves Waterfront at 9 PM.
I didn't grow up as a snob in Haddonfield, so I don't see the Rand Transportation Center as an absolute pit.
Second, try posting a 360o composite shot of the area, then people can really see what the place is like (although you can get a pretty good idea from the pic you tried to prove your point with).
Mark
Mark
No safe parking??????? LOL. Go tell that to my dad, who's parked there pretty safely for years on his commute to Rutgers-Camden... I agree that Rand is kinda of a pit, but only cuz there ain't too many stores, restaurants, etc., in the terminal. A proper terminal ought to have stores and restaurants! Come on!!!!! Also, they ought to try rebuilding that underground passage to Rutgers from the PATCO-Downtown station...
The father of a classmate of mine at Rutgers Camden owned a shoe store that was demolished to make way for PATCO's Broadway station, which is now part of the Rand Transportation Center.
And BTW there is a pretty decent Farmer's Market (for Camden, anyway) that goes on in the summer at the station.
It isn't PATCO's fault. Camden city government is incompetent (the Mayor was little better than Marion Barry and managed to piss off every friend she had (what few she had) in state government.
The DayPass is a fare instrument which costs $5.50 and allows unlimited rides on all Transit vehicles during one calendar day along with a one-way ride on any Regional Rail Line. (Not valid on trips via Center City Philadelphia stations or to/from Trenton, New Jersey.)
The trip on the Regional Rail Line must be taken within 24 hours of the time that the DayPass is used on transit vehicles. The DayPass is a valid base fare on all transit routes.
Two things.
First: it says base fare on all transit routes. So keep in mind if you take a bus that crosses the boundry from city to suburbian county or vice versa, you'll have to pay the zone fare(whatever it is now) for however many zones you go out of pocket.
Second: they're protecting themselves from having people cheap out 2 dollars or whatever from paying full fare on regional rail. I'm guessing that means you can start and terminate in center city, just not go from zone 1 through center city to zone 2(ie temple station to elywin or media).
***
With the exception of regional rail which is all visual inspection, i wish they would switch to a magstripe card for day passes. I'm not comfortable carrying around a flimsy transfer. I'm used to Magnetic cards that everyone uses and tokens. But I never needed to buy a day pass anyway(token person)
That used to be the case, but the last several times (over the last year-and-a-half) I tried, I was able to use a day pass for full fare on the P&W (SEPTA Route 100) between Norristown and 69th Street, and also on Route 101 from 69th Street all the way to Media.
The next time, don't even bother mentioning Trenton, just say you're going to Bristol if questions are asked.
In the unlikely event tickets are checked between Bristol and Trenton, then buy a 3-zone ticket.
DO NOT do this with Levittown. Levittown has a ticket office.
Now if you expect to return to Philly within six months, buy a 2-zone ticket at the origin station, repeat the above with Levittown and if the ticket is not collected, get a refund for the ticket at a later time.
I am not fond of the name “River Line” since it is already in use for the former New York, West Shore & Buffalo RR line that runs from Hudson County in NJ up to Albany NY. The name “River Line” would most likely have been used if NJ Transit had restored commuter rail service on that line, something that is not unfeasible due to the four-track capacity as far north as Bergenfield NJ. Quite unoriginal.
I have been of the opinion for quite a while that the Trenton-Camden system would offer competition to SEPTA’s R7 line, even with the two-seat ride using PATCO. If not for the FRA revising the regulations concerning LRT using heavy-rail tracks back in 1999, the line could have operated later into the night. Then again, the FRA has an anti-varnish bias that is quite pronounced…
For a $1.10, which is a great price that's too good to be true, your going to be able to attract commuters with low-lifes, and only one usually wins out. Unless NJ figures out how to develop those area's though. There's no reason there won't be unattractive development along the line, unless jersey panders to the millionaire drug cartel that's currently there.
DId they post ride duration times yet? I wish I knew about the comfort/speed factor on the new line.
The speed will average about 40 to 50 mph, with slower speeds on Camden city streets, and slower speeds in some suburban towns.
For a $1.10, which is a great price that's too good to be true, your going to be able to attract commuters with low-lifes, and only one usually wins out
That is what I thought until I saw the masses of people (commuters) traveling to/from Bayonne on the Hudson-Bergen LRT (flat fare of $1.50). The LRVs were packed, and not with lowlifes.
No, the so-called “lowlifes” can certainly be weeded out so long as fare inspection/POP compliance is enforced vigorously.
Or, there's the R7, which has few if any instances like this, and is generally CLEAN... and you can legally EAT YOUR DAMN CINNABON on it with only a few frindly jabs from riders that might want one, and decide to get one at Market East... unlike the fella on the 84 that tried to take the pastry after the driver said you can't eat it on board, and got smacked in the teeth for his effort... all the while, some girl nearby is munching away on a Chinese platter... back to the R7, you get downtown relaxed, happy, and ready for what comes your way... going the other way, you're ready to smack the next person who decides to lip off at you...
Exaggeration? Hardly, I've dealt with this on the 65, 108, MFL, BSL, 23, 47, 57, 109, 18, 26, and ESPECIALLY the 33... On the R7 (or R3 if I'm going home), I eat my lunch/dinner in peace, have a nice quiet ride, and enjoy the comforts of SEPTA'S RRD... whatever I had bought to eat downtown, it's usually cold by the time I get home going MFL/108.
Excess waiting time is a small price to pay for sanity and comfort... be glad the Regional Rail Lines run weekends AT ALL.
Note: Route 13 is the exception to the "insane transit" rule... I generally have few problems on that.
One more thing: On the MFL/BSL/13/108, you're not likely to have somewhere to SIT unless you wait for an empty train/bus/trolley when you get there... never had to stand on a Regional Rail Line, except during CTD strikes.
As fars as the SNJLRTS vs the R7... The Camden-Trenton line is more of a threat to NJT Routes 409 and 419 than the R7. Why? It takes 65 minutes (supposedly) from CAMDEN to Trenton. The R7 goes PHILLY to Trenton in 53. You'll probably spend about 5-15 minutes just getting across the Delaware River to reach the line itself. 70-80 minute trip overall from Philly to Trenton vs. 53 on the R7. About the only way it can compete is if you JUST MISSED the R7 on a Saturday
BTW, NY/Philly commuters would DEFINITELY stick with the R7, and there's a large number of them... R7's fine.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Yes, actually, it would.
"Or would the saturation of buses running down the street negate"
Nope. If anything, it would help.
First you'd have to develop a list of "soft sites," that is sites where it may be profitable to replace existing buildings with new buildings, because the zoning permits more. That is complex enough. Next, you'd have to figure out the rate at which "soft sites" have been turned into new buildings in the past. Next, you'd have to estimate the amount of additional development that may occur because the SAS made living/working in the area more valuable. Then you'd figure out the jobs/taxes/demand for services associated with that development.
My view -- it's more a quality of life thing for residential, but there a number of major employment centers -- and potentail employment centers -- on the UES and far east side which could be affected.
There are plenty of low rise buildings left on the upper east side ready to be torn down and replaced by 30 story monstrosities.
I'd also expect a sizable effect on rents. 2nd and 1st Aves are not the highest rent parts of the UES. With a subway nearby, the undistinguished white brick buildings that line both avenues could get higher sale and rental prices.
and their heads?
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/ent_radio/story/136261p-121220c.html
"Inner Tube
Channel 2 is on track to mark subway ann'y
Talk about going deep on a story.
Tomorrow, WCBS/Ch. 2 will relocate its morning newscasts to an undisclosed subway station in the city to mark the 100th anniversary of the transit system.
Starting at 5 a.m., anchors Shon Gables and Mario Bosquez, along with weatherman Dave Price, will report from underground in what's believed to be the first newscast ever to be broadcast in its entirety from a subway station.
"The sight of Shon, Mario, Dave and the rest of our morning crew broadcasting from a New York City subway station will surely be a unique viewing experience," news director Dianne Doctor said in making the announcement.
Richard Huff"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I know everyone of us is going to try to guess which station. Since there has to be a quiet environment to do a broadcast I think it would be reasonable to rule out any station that has train activity.
This would include the City Hall IRT station (although it would be a nice touch), the BMT Chambers St station. The lower level City Hall BMT station came to mind but the noise from the upper level station might be pushing the limit.
My choice/opinion: IND Court St. station (Transit Museum). There is enough places to put the equipment needed to do a broadcast. It is quiet since it doesn't open to the public until later in the morning and it is the appropriate setting since the history of the system is there.
This will be a must watch tomorrow morning.
Anyone have other thoughts?
http://cbsnewyork.com/siteSearch/local_story_314080006.html
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I think 59th St/CC would be too noisy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The best thing for everyone is to turn on Ch 2 news when you wake up.
No, it's not. What does "Living it Up! with Ali and Jack" have to do with subways?
The best thing would be to follow South Ferry's advice or its 21st Century equivalent.
They had every right to air it. If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it.
"Fortunately fair minded people of all political persuasions saw through the veneer of Madam Streisand and her flunky husband and got the half ass movie rerouted to some cable station that fewer and fewer people watch anyway."
If CBS' executives are such ninnies that they crapped in their pants when a few right-wing fascists and Bible thumpers decided that "The Reagans" was unworthy of airing, the network deserves whatever it gets.
Has the MTA any stated plans for using the station for its centennial? I heard Larry Reuter mumble something at the Redbird Farewell.
--Mark
City Hall, but it's too noisy...
Sutphin Blvd is too filthy...
How about Jamaica-Van Wyck? The trains passing don't make as much noise in that station and there is plenty of space both on the platform and then there's the open mezzanine and the station IS kinda nice. It's also home to the currently oldest cars in the system (R-32's and R-32A's on the E).
--Mark
76th Street!!!
Sorry, I just had to. :)
They miscounted. It's the 99th anniversary...
www.forgotten-ny.com
They must have figured that the only way to get the scoop on the competition is to invent the news before it happens...
I was just wondering whether the City could ever rehabilitate the line and connect it to an existing subway line to provide extra service to underserved areas like Woodhaven and Ozone Park.
(Unless you can stamp out all of the NIMBYs)
Elias
JFK-Howard Beach-Woodhaven-Parside-Rego Park-Sunnyside-GCT/NYP
Elias
More die-hard railbuff wet dreams.
AirTrain's Howard Beach leg would have been required anyway (and extended to reach the LIRR), because LIRR's 85 foot cars cannot reach the terminals. And you'd need to run Jamaica-bound service, so as not to cut off people not coming from Manhattan.
AirTrain service to Jamaica offers more frequent service to the airport (much higher service frequency than just running one LIRR line would give you), access to every LIRR line except the Port Washington branch. And, to top it off, nobody except for rail buffs and politicians who need simple slogans to raise money gives a rat's hiney about the one-seat ride, as experience in Atlanta, Chicago, and even Newark proves.
On another note, has anybody considered creating a branch of the Far Rockaway Line to meet the AirTrain circulator at JFK? That could work.
It can only work coming through the abandoned part of the Rockaway Branch, as the ROW exists there, and the ROW is four tracks where it would run with the subway. COming from Far Rockaway, the subway uses the only two tracks available on the viaduct, and the ROW is only two tracks to just before Howard Beach coming from Far Rockaway. The excess capacity/ROW only exists north of Howard Beach. There is no way to run it from Far Rockaway without throwing the subway off the viaduct or double the size of the viaduct and build new causway from the Hammel Wye to Broad Channel and then again from Broad Channel to Howard Beach - certainly more roundabout and costly than rebuilding the abandoned part of the line.
Bummer!
However, if you can combine the use of a new branch of the Far Rocxkaway Line with part of the abandoned Rockaway Line (being mindful of taking care of residents' legitimate concerns), then you avoid the problem of lack of capacity. You split the Far Rockaway schedule into Far Rockaway and JFK trains, and you can run the service with existing East River tunnel capacity. You hook up the LIRR to a transfer to AirTrain's circulator.
Not a trivial task, I agree. But since the abandoned Rockaway Line cannot work at all without East Side Access being finished, maybe this is another way to do what you want..
So here:
JFK-Howard Beach-Aqueduct Race Track(Race days only)-Woodhaven-then all old stops to Rego Park(Ozone Park and Parkside I think?)-Rego Park-woodside-then either GCT, or Sunnyside-NYP
JFK-Jamaica-Queens Village-Floral Park-New Hyde Park-Mineola-Hempstead Transit Center
JFK-Jamaica-I495/LIE-Flushing Main St-Shea Stadium(game days only)-LGA
Incorrect!
AirTrain is built under very specific Federal Funding guidelines.
1) It CANNOT double as a city mass transit system, but
2) MUST be EXCLUSIVELY for transport to and from the Airport.
3) Its funding CANNOT be mixed with that of other systems, otherwise
4) Its funding would not exist at all.
It *could* have taken the Rockaway ROW, but it would have had to maintain that EXCLUSIVE ROW all the way to whatever terminal it was to use.
Making it LONGER, would have mad it MORE EXPENSIVE, and would also have excluded passengers from Long Island.
Elias
On the other hand, reliable local service to Ozone Park and Forest Park is a good thing.
So a transfer at Jamaica should do it. But if the Rockaway Line does not also serve Jamaica Station (trains starting there), then someone coming from the island has to transfer at Woodside and double back (not enough trains stop in Forest Hills or Kew Gardens to be useful here).
So, local trains from NYP/GCT making all old rockaway line stops until the Race Track?(I take it it would be race days only).
As far as service from LI, I think Belmont needs this too. They have a wye there, why not use it? My proposal for Belmont service is to run skip stop locals on the Hempstead, Port Jeff, and main lines. Also, for the south shore, a loop service as such:
Bay Shore-Babylon-Lindenhurst-Amityville-Massapequa-Freeport-Rockville Centre-Lynbrook-Valley Stream-St Albans-Queens Village-Belmont.
Also, trains from NYP need to make more stops. All stops on the main to Jamaica, then QV, then Belmont
As far as aqueduct goes, here is what I think. Trains from HTC, huntington, and the south shore follow either the lower montauk or atlantic av line until it intersects with rockaway, curves south, terminates at the racetrack. Trains from Manhattan make all those local stops.
I agree with you regarding Belmont.
The only major construction the aqueduct race track line requires is the old rockaway line(of course, lol), and a curve from the atlantic av or LIC line to the rockaway heading south.
Also, someone brought up in the thread of using aqueduct as a park n ride. If the owners agree to this, I think it should be done. So now, all local trains would go to Aqueduct all the time, as opposed to only on race days like my prior proposal said.
Are you sure?
Roadbeds are shot after not being maintained for 47 odd years.
And in places there are large trees that grew between the running rails.
Elias
Too bad Rbt. Moses was the last Polititican who had any...
Well we know what word to fill in there, but if it was up to Robert Moses, he would probably turned the ROW into an expressway or something.
But then the NIMBY's wouldn't have to worry about what was in their back yard, because they wouldn't have any. Or front yard. Or house.
If the line were rebuilt there, it might have to be underground, and in some places the tracks stacked so that the width of the trackway is one track instead of two.
But aren't those the same backyards that were there when it was a rail line? If two tracks fit before, why wouldn't they fit now if they so chose to use the line?
That wouldn't be an "idiotic judge". Rather it would be a judge who goes according to law.
OK, LIRR put it out of service and gave the property that it sits on to the city. (???)
I have no idea what the internal MTA politicking would be like.
Once again, the portion not used by the A train is owned by the City of New York, not NYCTA or LIRR.
This makes the NIMBY situation even more of a problem.
Screw it. Make it a bike path and park, (ie Railbank it, as Jersey Mike explained the concept), and move on.
The City government is in charge of the maintenance of the surviving viaduct structure, not the MTA or NYCT. They are the ones who installed the netting under the viaduct as a means of keeping area pigeons from roosting in the structure, only to find that the birds made nests in the nets, with the expected results underneath.
Someone in city or state governments let the genie out of the bottle forty years ago when they let the LIRR eliminate service on the Rockaway Beach line without a real replacement except for an express bus line. If they had kept service going, or if NYCT had taken over at that point, there would be no NIMBY problems at all. Now, there's an insurmountable one. It's more than the people who live next to the Rockaway Beach line--and there are a lot of them. It's several whole communities who would block the reactivation of this line.
Never fight the pigeons. They always win.
"If they had kept service going, or if NYCT had taken over at that point, there would be no NIMBY problems at all. Now, there's an insurmountable one. It's more than the people who live next to the Rockaway Beach line--and there are a lot of them. It's several whole communities who would block the reactivation of this line."
Bingo! I hate it, but there it is. You're righ6 on the money here.
Including beating the pigeons :)
Can we all now get on with the rest of our lives?
You *could* connect the Rockaway ROW to 76TH STREET!
:0)
Wrong. It is different enough so there's NOT room for a two track line at grade anymore. In some places yes, in some places, no.
That, plus it's 2003, not 1957. Residents have a right to expect much better ROW isolation these days. This is one instance where some of the NIMBY stuff is a real concern, and even I would tell LIRR to forget about it unless that were addressed.
I am always amazed at the number and length of threads generated by this subject, and yet the defenders of the abandoned line never have anything new or supportable to offer.
Except for one: the East Side Access project, if finished on time in 2012, will make the Rokaway line feasible. If you started now, maybe the Rockaway Line could open right after the LIRR 63rd Street Line opens, and there's enough East River capacity to handle all these trains.
The line is completely grade seperated. It's on an embankment grade seperated from surrounding streets. No grade crossings exist.
By that are you meaning, better fencing? Or greater protection from the power distribution components themselves? ISTM, just because this is 2003 there should still be a healthy respect for a railroad track. As much respect as a lane on the BQE would get. I.E., folks should just "know" it's not smart to wander onto the property without risking death. There can only be so much protection from reality, after all.
I would think a fence on both sides of the r.o.w. should suffice. The simple presence of an operating rail line directly adjacent to residential areas is common enough. Especially in New York. And as another poster noted, the bulk of the line is on an embankment, or well-seperated from the street. Better than the typical el line, as far as being a dominent structure on the street. More akin to the Babylon Branch, I think. So I can't see any justification for some extreme type of "r.o.w. isolation" being demanded.
Better sound-proofing, better vibration isolation = less NIMBY.
"And as another poster noted, the bulk of the line is on an embankment, or well-seperated from the street."
That's controversial at best. No, the bulk of the line is not well separated from where people live, and the situation would have to be remedied. The Van Wyck offered good separation, especially with a well-elevated trackway. But not the Rockaway branch. Your description doesn't connect with reality that well.
But the Van Wyck itself is a noisy neighbor! There is no comparison. I've lived a few yards from both expressway and rail lines. Rail lines win it for proximity livability. The noise never ends with a highway. I think you've never actually been near the Rockaway r.o.w. If that's the case, simply go to Mapquest and follow the line. At least south of Forest Park, it's all grade-separated.
Anyway, my primary objection to the AirTrain is the lack of local service. I understand about the funding rationale; I just think it stinks that it's only Jamaica/Broad Channel/Airport. At the very least, there should have been a stop near the Belt Parkway. Something with a parking garage. Any improvements to Jamaica are great. But the areas along the Van Wyck from the Belt to Atlantic Avenue are basically too separated (geographically and economically) to get any benefit out of it. People will, still, just be passing by.
Nothing's going to change much on, say, Foch Blvd.
Have you seen the Rockaway Line? It IS on an embankment, no different than the Brighton line, or the Dyre Line, or the LIRR through Queens, or the LIRR Bay Ridge Line, or the LIRR Babylon Branch, etc.
So, yes, better ROW isolation is mandatory. You're the one who doesn't understand that.
In some places, not true. And in any event, you're dealing with it as though it were an active line. The fact that it is inactive makes all the difference. You will not be able to bring it back on the old standards. Period.
"The subway would be even more of a concern than the LIRR would be. The subway runs much more frequent service. "
Agreed, which is why it would have to be underground and/or offer lots of other concessions (like parkland and greenspace above it, etc. etc.
"You make it sound like the Rockaway Branch is like the Montauk Branch in Queens, or the Bushwick Branch in Brooklyn,"
It's even worse. At least those lines are running.
Yes, and my point was that the Rockaway Branch was way ahead of the Montauk (Queens) line, the Bushwick, or the Whitestone Branch in terms of upgrading. None of those were ever grade seperated, and the Rockaway branch was even put on an embankment. Your concerns would be completely validated, and I would agree with you totally if the discussion was about trying to send trains down the primitive ROW of the old WHitestone branch, or sending real service down the very primitive, yet still in use Bushwick branch. Even the Montauk Branch, is totally at grade level, and probably more of an encumberance on the neighborhoods it goes through than the old Rockaway Branch was. It was not a primitive line.
Well, yes this is so... but...
If I were to build it as a subway line, I would not build it on the old LIRR ROW... If I were to build a subway, I'd build it under Woodhaven Boulevard, which is also a city owned ROW.
Elais
The disruption of building a subway is certainly less that running an open line.
I think that deep enough boring would limit topside disruption.
But, even in my Fantasy World it is too low a priority to seriously contemplate.
Elias
I doubt if there will ever be a subway under Woodhaven Blvd. But someone else in their Fantasy World will think there should be one.
So many lines NY needs...
The city needs useful green spaces as much as it needs efficient transportation.
The Rockaway ROW is not well suited for a transit ROW (as compared to say a subway under Woodside Blvd (where the shops and homes already are).
It is a green space.
Make it a safe, sane green space...
Elias
Dyslexia strikes again...
Well, it has a wood in it and it has a Blvd in it
and besides, you already *knew* that I ment Woodhaven Blvd
: ) Elias
I disagree, if you allow leeway in your definition of "transit ROW". After all, is is a passenger railroad line. And the north/south routing is really needed. From Valley Stream into Ozone Park there are no passenger rail lines with that configuration. Wouldn't that be a good investment in the neighborhoods? I'd say, there'd be plenty of passengers riding it. Put a station with a park-n-ride facility near the Belt Parkway and, walla, you will see a new commuting pattern emerge. People may not want to drive from Long Island to Aqueduct to catch a subway into Manhattan but a faster more comfortable LIRR train would draw `em in. Even those going to areas along the Brooklyn Branch stations would benefit, if the underground Woodhaven station were to be re-opened along with the elevated Woodhaven station of the Rockaway Branch.
As usual, my comments are tinged with the railfan fever...but the concept of switching at Woodhaven does tickle my fancy. Go Woodhaven! Go Brooklyn! Go, city neighborhoods based upon the classic grid pattern, rather than the screwy suburban circular anarchy!!
I disagree, if you allow leeway in your definition of "transit ROW".
My issue with it is that much of it runs through the woods. Chipmonks and Squirls have yet to figure out how to use a MetroCard.
If the expense were undertaken to build a subway line, then it would be better sited on Woodhaven Blvd. This routing also gives it better access from Queens Blvd where it would follow a new subway line instead of following the existing (and over crowded) Queensboro line which diverts to Broadway in this area.
Such an allignment might put the (V) train through the 53rd Street Tunnel, East on a new Queesnsboro subway then south on Woodhaven Blvd to what? Perhaps a new line east on Linden Blvd to Green Acres?
There are many subway related uses to which I might employ all or part of the Rockaway ROW, but as far as service in that area, Woodhaven seems a better choice to me.
Elias
Then in detail: The part of the Rockaway ROW that is in question:
The LIRR is shown in Blue. The Existing Queensboro Line is shown in Red.
The Proposed new (V) Route is shown in orange.
Now note that the use of the Rockaway ROW in this area does not lend itself to a subway sort of service. Also, as far as I can tell, this is the precice area where 1) the Line is MOST overgrown, 2) MOST encroached upon, and 3) boarderd by the most fervent of (read rich) NIMBYs.
Observe the apparent ease of connecting this alignment to the existing or proposed new subway alignment.
Tell me which alignment might afford greater access to the local neighborhoods through which it passes.
As this line proceeds south of this area, I do switch it onto the existing Rockaway ROW, where said ROW is already an elevated structure (is it not???- I'm not sure).
And from here it has two options: 1) to continue onto the Existing Rockaway line, or 2) to follow Rockaway Blvd, and Linden Blvd to the Green Acres Mall.
Actually, I prefer the idea of sending this (call it the (V) train) to the Rockaways, and sending the (E) train to Green Acres. (With the (A) continuing on Liberty to Supthin and ending at Hillside.)
I am less enthused in using the Rockaway ROW as an LIRR venue. LIRR is not at all interested in intracity traffic, not even to the ponies or to the planes, and rightfully so: it is a commuter railroad, interested in bringing Long Islanders into the city for work or whatever. The AirTrain Connection at Jamaica provdes all of the connections to JFK that LIRR customers would want.
Anyway, as pretty as these maps are: these alignments do not fit into the grand scheme of my fantastical constructions.
Elias
Translation: Not enough of a payoff was offered to the NIMBYS. You have to fork over some $$$ to get them to shut up.
Even so, this disruption is time-limmited, followed by 100s of years of useful service. NOBODY is complaining on Queens Boulevard or on HILLSIDE AVENUE today. And they have not been doing so in all of my lifetime.
Yes, there may be five years of disruption, followed by hundreds of years of increasing property values and utility to the people of the city.
And still that route is not much of a prioity to me.
Elias
Yeah but when they built the Queens Blvd line, much of the road looked like farmland up above. But I understand what you are saying.
You, of course are correct. My point was the irony of the situatation.
Nobody along the existing lines is complaining that the lines exist, that their property values have gone up, or that the existance of the subway is an enhancement to the neighborhood.
But try to build a new line, and they want to complain about five years (tops) of construction inconvience and the NIMBYs beget NIMBYs exponentially.
But as you say, this line even as a fantasy is WAY DOWN on the list of projects that it is not in my viewscope.
For now: Build a Greenway for people to walk or bicycle on, and preserve the ROW against future needs (read 2103) and let it go at that!
Elias
I think people would object to that even more strongly. Have people conceivably hanging out on the ROW, late at night, carousing, breaking bottles...at least with an electric rail line there, ANY pedestrians would stick out like a sore thumb. A rail line would offer a much better "controlled" backyard environment to adjacent housing than what is there now.
I would say that your timeline is off here. You really think this facility would be allowed to lie fallow for a hundred years?? I give it about 15 years, max, `til you see trains on it again. All factors relevant to this situation seem to point in that direction. Including the larger issues: increased regulatory measures pertaining to car ownership, increasing costs of car ownership, extremely higher gas prices (10 bucks a gallon?), higher population density in the area, less antipathy to mass transit in general. A lot can happen in 10 or 15 years.
Yep, anything could happen. That is anything other than the reactivation of the Rockaway Branch. It just ain't going to happen. Ever. If there was any chance of it being practical the LIRR never would have abandoned it. They were planning on discontinuing it even before the fire.
Aside from JFK access, the line wouldn't be practical for the LIRR even now. Subway service however would be very practical for the line.
In which case an nice express routing would indeed be appreciated.
Elais
Also, doesn't the belmont train only stop in NYP and Jamaica? That may be a reason for the low ridership. Maybe a little more advertising too.
Fine. Roof the whole goddam thing over and create some sort of linear park on top.
Ron! It's a joke! Geesh.
They don't tell the whole story of what? That I proved Douce Man's point?
I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe that under New York law eminent domain does not apply to abandoned railroad property. In other words, adjoining property owners can use a former r-o-w for years without acquiring any legal rights thereto. Should this be the case, a bulldozer or two will take care of any illegal structures quite nicely.
As we've seen in other states, laws approved by voters and passed by legislators can be stopped by one moron who can convince another moron in a black robe otherwise.
I suppose you're right, especially with respect to all the idiot judges in this state.
Funny, isn't it, that some environmentalist types will oppose a transit project?
Invalid comparison. Residents living near subway have different expectations and different rewards. The folks living near these houses on the Far Rockaway Line will have to be offered ROW isolation superior to what the folks near the Brighton Line get. That's part of what you and the other railbuffs don't seem to understand.
AirTrain would never have happened if the PA used 40 year old building methods.
This isn't about Airtrain. This is about Manhattan access to the airport. Airtrain is done, but it has nothing to do with Manhattan access. The LIRR could serve this with existing ROW. The ROW is wide enough to handle 4 tracks so it can share the ROW south of the Liberty el, without sharing tracks. This line would have local stations in between, so local residents do have a service, and they don't have to use it to go to the airport, they can use it to go to Manhattan. And like Chris R27 said, just put up those sound barriers if that would be a problem. The ROW is plenty wide for two tracks, and is grade seperated on an embankment. And how would the noise from a stacked service be any less than side by side tracks? Sound barriers would be necessary with a stacked service too if that's what you are saying would be a problem.
This is about how to get Manhattan access to the airport without using 40 year old building methods and without denying easy airport access to everyone else.
"Airtrain is done,"
and has provided exactly that tpotal access. Airtrain IS by definition access to the airport for everyone. The abandonmed Rockaway Line is about a broken down elephant that has nothing to do with Manhattan access.
Who's using 40 year old building methods? Why would the Rockaway branch have to be rebuilt using 40 year old building methods? No one keeps saying that but you. Why would the line be rebuilt using anything but modern supplies/methods?
and has provided exactly that tpotal access. Airtrain IS by definition access to the airport for everyone.
No it's not. It's not any better than the old take the A train from Manhattan making all A stops to Howard Beach and transfer to another mode of transportation. The only difference now is that it's not a free bus, but a $5.00 replacement on rails that does in essence exactly what the bus does now. The LIRR would provide a better service to Howard Beach than the subway. It would be a faster more premium service from Manhattan. (This is not knocking the Jamaica leg, just the Howard Beach leg).
The abandonmed Rockaway Line is about a broken down elephant that has nothing to do with Manhattan access
The Rockaway Branch has plenty to do with Manhattan service. Airtrain does not servce Manhattan. The LIRR does, and in about 10 years it will from both the East and West sides. I don't know where you keep getting this "broken down" line from, why would it be anything other than state of the art when refurbished?
Your posts implied that by defending environmental standards of 40 years ago. However, your post regarding the concrete isolation walls was a good one.
"No it's not. It's not any better than the old take the A train from Manhattan making all A stops to Howard Beach and transfer to another mode of transportation."
So the E, J Z subways and every single LIRR train on the schedule except the PW branch don't exist? AirTrain serves every means of rail transport from Manhattan and the Island. That's all anybody needs, and that's all the MTA's patrons have said they care about...
"The only difference now is that it's not a free bus, but a $5.00 replacement on rails that does in essence exactly what the bus does now"
Except being more comfortable and reliable than the bus, a better value than the bus, quicker than the bus, out of the weather, unlike the bus.
The only thing that the Rockaway Branch does (beside waste space on Subtalk) is provide a few railbuffs something to have a wet dream about. Personally, I think a member of the opposite sex works out a lot better, but to each his and her own... Have fun:0)
What does the E,J,Z subway and the LIRR have to do with anything? Why does the Airtrain and the Rockaway Branch have to be intermingled? I have said countless times in this thread and all the others that this isn't about Airtrain. Airtrain is done, and serves it's purpose, hense the LIRR and the E/J/Z subway lines at Jamaica. No revival of the Rockaway Branch could serve eastern Long Island LIRR riders or the E/J/Z subway lines than the AirTrain about to open. It's about Manhattan access, which airtrain does not serve. I have explained to you many times that I have'n knocked the Jamaica Airtrain line once. But it would serve an ENTIRELY different group of people than the LIRR service to the Howard Beach via the Rockaway Line does, actually Manhattan, and the Port Washington Branch (as you threw in). Airtrain serves neither of those people's needs any more than it they are served now.
You only choose to read what you want to read. Again, Airtrain is done. It's will serve who it serves. This plan serves a new group of people, and has nothing to do with Airtrain.
The only thing that the Rockaway Branch does (beside waste space on Subtalk) is provide a few railbuffs something to have a wet dream about. Personally, I think a member of the opposite sex works out a lot better, but to each his and her own... Have fun:0)
I think it's you that has the problem with wet dreams over Airtrain. Any conversation of the Rockaway Branch has to bring in your fetish on defending AirTrain, even against people that aren't even knocking Airtrain. How many times do I have to say this isn't about AirTrain, especially the Jamaica leg. I've defended the Jamaica leg time and time again (and so have other people arguing about Airtrain). You seem to insist that just because people bring up the Rockaway branch, they must be anti-AirTrain. Not true.
False statement. Exttending additional service into Manhattan is duplicative of what AirTrain already does. The LIRR does not need to go directly into Kennedy, and cannot do so anyway. Manhattan already has full access to the airport, access via 3 subway lines and the LIRR. When East Side Access opens LIRR service to the airport's Jamaica rail portal will be better, because patrons can go there from Penn, Brooklyn or midtown.
"Airtrain serves neither of those people's needs any more than it they are served now."
False. Surveys clearly indicate that AirTrain serves a need which the A train and bus does not address. AirTrain completes access to the airport; the bus was a poor bandaid that served no one well.
"You seem to insist that just because people bring up the Rockaway branch, they must be anti-AirTrain. Not true. "
"Any conversation of the Rockaway Branch has to bring in your fetish on defending AirTrain, even against people that aren't even knocking Airtrain."
If so, it's a fetish shared by most commuters. They're happy with the AirTrain concept. You're one of the few who isn't.
People who bring up the Rockaway line want to waste a hell of a lot of scarce money on a project nobody wants except for the railbuffs.
And let's see, they all like railfan windows...
"These aint even railfans, these are just ordinary NYC citizens."
Somehow I doubt it.
Okay. Your opinion. In this case I think you're wrong. Re-upping the Rockaway Branch in question here is more than a way to access JFK via rail. Such a project would add a new energy and direction for the surrounding neighborhoods, especially south of Forest Park. Have you ever walked along Jamaica Avenue, or Atlantic Avenue, or Liberty Avenue in the area? These are neighborhoods that, while not actually in too bad a condition, need some new spark. A new n/s rail line could do wonders.
I think it would be worth it.
This is distinct from the method of use of ROW.
So, if a new subway line were built coming out of Manhattan, and were to serve that area, as an underground line, that's great.
If ESA is completed in 2012, I would support the use of the Rockaway ROW, but not the way it has been discussed here. To defeat politically strong NIMBY and address valid neighborhood issues, the ROW would have to be improved (line undereground, track stacking, an isolation wall as "GP38" suggested. And the emphasis would not be service to JFK, because that's already addressed and nobody cares about it.
The emphasis would be local rail service to the neighborhoods, as you stated (and I agree with). An additional issue would be how much fare should be charged. Should this be subway service, so an ulimited MetroCard can be used? Should it be in a CityTicket LIRR fare zone?
LIRR would be less expensive to build (fewer stations and fewer trainsets) but more expensive to ride and less frequent; subway is more expensive to build (more stations) but less expensive to ride and offers more frequent service.
Subway: Do you extend a local train from Queens Blvd? Branch service off a 63rd Street line portal? Create a new branch of the Jamaica Av line (there's enough track capacity there to handle branch service)? Do you spend the money to sink another tunnel into the East River?
??
It *could* get the (C) or (E) train via Fulton Street.
It *could* get the (Z) train with changes to eliminate the "S" curve at Cressent Street, with the (Z) train continuing to Rockaway Boulevard and then on to the existing Rockaway Subway aproximately where it joins now.
In this plan the (J) train gets a new el along Jamaica Avenue directly to ENY.
Further off the Wall would only work if my Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Subway were built. Given this option, the Northern Boulevard line would relieve enough traffic from the Flushing Line to allow that line to be cut from the IRT and attached to the BMT via the 60th Street Tunnel. (And eliminating the "S" curves at the Queensboro Bridge)
This opens the Steinway Tunnel for redevelopment, I would extend it out along the LIE, and then east on the Lower Montauk ROW, making stops at new park and ride facilities, and then moving onto the Rockaway ROW at that point. That would make the Rockaways an IRT division.
A Final option, that I have not explored too closely, would but a new subway on Queens Boulevard, probably accessing Manhattan via the 53rd Street Tunnel (call it the (V) train if you want) and then using the entire lenght of the Rockaway ROW.
For my way of looking at it, the rebuilding of the (J) (Z) alignments seems best to me. The (J) would run Jamaica Center to Broad Street,
the (Z) would run Rockaways to Broad or Chambers Street... and the (C) Eight Avenue Local would switch to Houston Street south of W 4th street and then use the old (K) train connector to the Williamsburgh bridge, and to the Howard Beach as a terminal. Here I would extend the norther termianl one stop from 168th Street to 177th Street to make a terminal at the GeoWash Bus Terminal.
Elias
This would be fairly easy, and I agree, a sound barrier should be installed.
Some of this is NIMBY, of course, but if NIMBY has political support, as they do here, you have to deal with it. AirTrain had very little NIMBY (a few people made noise, then were pushed aside), and that helped the project.
OK, then organize your supporters, go to your elected officials, and see what kind of plan you can put together. Link it to ESA to eliminate MTA's (correct) argument that there's no capacity for it, and then see what your state rep and city council person have to say.
Good luck.
Of course, the railfan in me does tinge my observations here, perhaps regretably so. And it would thrill my railfan butt to see brand new stations on Jamaica Ave, Atlantic Aveune and near Metropolitan Avenue, among others. For I see a railroad-based improvement to the stretch of cityscape from Jamaica to East New York, backed by the line. I agree, also, that Woodhaven could become more important, for want of a better term, in the scheme of things, with a revitalized Rockaway Branch. Which would be a good thing. I mean, how many more frickin' buildings should be squeezed into Forest Hills and Rego Park? The lack of fast direct service into Manhattan has led to an unbalanced mixture of housing and development around there; hot in sonme areas, almost non-existent south of Jamaica Avenue. Unfair, really, as the basic housing stock is similar in both areas.
Not only that, say the LIRR service on the line started from Aqueduct Racetrack. A park-and-ride could be established there, with direct service to Penn Station. Could pull a lot of drivers off the Belt.
Put the branch back in service, as a LIRR branch. Watch the increased tax and other revenue for city appear. The future health of Queens needs this line.
It doesn't sound lame at all. I thank you for your posts, too. You have good ideas.
I agree with your characterization of LIRR service.
"Of course, the railfan in me does tinge my observations here, perhaps regretably so."
Your honesty is refreshing. And no, don;t regret it. Being a raiolbuff is cool; you just have to know how things tthat railbuffs like play out with most customers. Some things are compatible; a lot aren't.
"And it would thrill my railfan butt to see brand new stations on Jamaica Ave, Atlantic Aveune and near Metropolitan Avenue, among others."
I'm with you there. I think that would be cool.
A very good post on your part.
TO clarify, I meant:
I tried for a food part of this thread to try to get you to disconnect [concept of the line] from the AirTrain. Airtrain is done. The line doesn't have to be used for a "competition" of Airtrain.
I think that, while there's virtually no chance the ROW will be used for rail in the near future, you do have a reasoble chance of forming a coalition to get the city to "Railbank" the ROW. As Jersey Mike explained, this is a process whereby the ROW is availablw for future rail use, but it does not have to be an eyesore either. The old tracks can be ripped out (no big deal - you'd want new tracks for new service anyway) and the property aesthetically improved.
That process is not so expensive so you couldn't find money for it. NIMBY might be an issue for a trail too, but not as strident and easier to deal with.
For the umpteenth time I must once again say that I am NOT against Airtrain. This has nothing to do with Airtrain. It's an additional service FROM Manhattan, with local stops along the way serving people that are not served by Airtrain.
OK. If we're referring to non-airport applications, that's fine.
It still can't be built as you envision it, and there isn't enough money to build it as I envision it.
How do you envision it? It's already grade-separated, and the bridges appear to be in serviceable condition; there isn't a whole lot of infrastructre investment required.
The "Forest Removal" as you call it entails the REBUILDING of the entire embankments, as the root systems etc. will have compromised the stability of the embankment. All of the ties, rails, power and signal system must be replaced. What I am telling you is that only the property itself is viable as the ROW, all structure, including the embankments will need to be fully replaced.
Elias
With the exception of ties, rails, power, and signal systems, I respectfully disagree.
From detailed examination of the photographs, and nothing else, I suggest that the integrity of the embankment is compromised.
If you must know, we have a small lake on our property, about the same size as the res. in Central Park. It was created by the construction of an earthen dam. We cannot permit trees to grow on the dam for fear of compromising it. While it is true that small vegitation protects the embankment from ersosion, the root systems of trees are very dertimental to the integrity of the structure. It is also true that the Rockaway ROW is not responsible for holding back thousands of foot acres of water, I fear that it would be structuraly compromised nonetheless by time, errosion and the action of the tree roots.
I am sure that you have seen pictures of where a tree was able to split a rock, but if not, then you ought to go climbing in the Poconos or in Conneticuit, and see for yourself the combinations of tree, water, ice and frost.
Besides... replacing the embankment is the CHEAPEST and EASIEST part of restoring that right of way, and it would have to be done anyway since modern construction techniques would require a different track geometry.
That being said... THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE CLOSED THE DAMN THING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Elias
The stations aren't there...
Also, those other stations could easily be rubuilt.
Rego Park
Yellowstone BLVD/Metropolitan Av(platform is between the 2 streets with north end at Yellowstone Av, and south end atMetropolitan Av)
Union TPKE/Myrtle Av-Forest Park(North end of platform at Union TPKE, south end at Myrtle Av with new entrance to Forest Park)
Brooklyn Manor
Woodhaven
Ozone Park(moved to new location just north of Liberty av El)
Aqueduct Race Track(service for races and regular service for those using the parking lot as the new park n ride)
Howard Beach(at current A station)
So it's kinda like a mix with the subway and LIRR. The subway part is how close the stations are, and the LIRR part is the not as frequent as a subway type service, but enough to work and keep the NIMBY's from bitching as much as they would with a subway.
And yes, I have seen it.
When was the last time, and what is your training in structural engineering?
Plenty good enough to spot the problems with your presentation (and Elias did a pretty good job of that too).
See my response to Elias.
No, but neither is RIPTA. And it doesn't take an expert to see the obvious problems with hisd argument. You don't need a PhD in math to figure out that 2+2 does not equal 5.
"Wasn't just a few months ago that you were accusing me of impersonating a "structural engineer" when I was tring to explain to you that all the stations on the Broadway El are built the same way but Flusing got ADA only because it is a "key" station, and you were insisting that it was because it must've been more cost effective at Flushing (even though many of us were showing you it was originally built the same as all the other stations that didn't get ADA). "
can't help the fact that you didn't have all the facts. You can explain all you want, but if the explanation is wrong it doesn't help. That's why you lost that argument. That's independent of whether Flushing is a key station or not.
"Now who is impersonating a structural engineer?"
RIPTA seems to be - and maybe you. :0)
Heh, well I don't think I lost. I bowed out because we were talking in circles....kinda like now.
RIPTA seems to be - and maybe you. :0)
Just don't tell my boss. I actually get a paycheck for impersonating a civil engineer.
I ain't punching no holes in the embankment. The Trees are doing that.
We have trees growing out in the middle of the prairie, with only a seasonal trickle of water for a stream course, yet over time, about 1/3d of the time that the Rockaway ROW has been abandoned, the water has toppled some of those trees. The size hole that a tree leaves in the ground when it is toppled is about 15 FEET across and easily 10 FEET deep. Even if you do not topple the tree, that is over 2000 cubic feet of root system smack in the middle of your ROW.
And how many trees are there? How close together are they?
I do not think that you need to be a civil engineer to tell that there are problems with that ROW. I think that any farmer can tell you that.
Elias
That's precisely what I'm doing, and as far as I'm concerned, no holes have been punched in my argument. I'm not about to volunteer my time to do a thorough analysis of the condition of the bridges; I drive under several of them frequently, and I have seen no irreparable damage. Should the ROW be reactivated, I'm guessing they would require little more than replacement of expansion joints and seismic retrofitting. I'll rifle through some NYCDOT inspection records to see if they have anything on the bridges' conditions, but I think I only have information on road bridges.
I agree that the subbase, ties, rails would have to be replaced. The embankments should be shored up with concrete retaining walls. As far as damage from roots goes, a 15-ton roller on the subgrade should take care of any holes. The viaduct in Ozone Park is probably useable as-is, and the existing concrete stations could be adaptively reused with full ADA compliance.
Happy?
That's precisely what you have failed to do.
"I drive under several of them frequently, and I have seen no irreparable damage."
You can tell a lot from visual inspection; the trouble is that what you miss can be crucial. I passed under the Manayunk Bridge in Philadelphia many times, and it looks intact, but SEPTA's engineers will tell you they are not going to run commuter trains on it without extensive rehabilitation.
"I agree that the subbase, ties, rails would have to be replaced."
Yes. A no-brainer. But before that happens, you have to figure out what kind of ROW the residents will accept without blocking you in the state legislature or at City Hall.
"The embankments should be shored up with concrete retaining walls."
No, first the embankments should be professionally assessed, and then a decision should be made about what kind of remediation is needed.
"The viaduct in Ozone Park is probably useable as-is,"
You do not have sufficient data to reach that conclusion.
Back to the drawing board...
If the MTA, City, or Port Authority - or even you - want to pay me to do a thorough analysis of the ROW, I'd be happy to. I've given my opinion, as a civil engineer, after a cursory visual inspection and nothing more. Certainly, the assessment of a physician in Missouri would be more accurate.
Which worthless.
"Certainly, the assessment of a physician in Missouri would be more accurate."
I've pointed out the obvious, which requires no more than a high school education. You, on the other hand, offered yourself as an expert, when in fact you don't know anything about the ROW's condition. If somebody had paid for an opinion like that, you'd lose your license.
If you can look at a ROW and make a judgement on its condition years later from 1,200 miles away with a high school education, I'd like to know on what planet you went to high school.
If somebody had paid for an opinion like that, you'd lose your license.
If you would actually read what I wrote, I have offered an opinion based on cursory observations and professional knowledge for the purpose of an infantile debate on an internet message board. If someone paid me for my opinion, and it would result in actual construction, I wouldn't offer it without a thorough quantitative analysis to confirm it.
Obviously same one you did. Only I actually paid attention.
"If you would actually read what I wrote, I have offered an opinion based on cursory observations and professional knowledge"
So why didn't you just say "The ROW MIGHT be salvageable, but I wouldn't stick my neck out for it without a lot more information." That would have been honest.
And you got into medical school. Congrats.
So why didn't you just say "The ROW MIGHT be salvageable, but I wouldn't stick my neck out for it without a lot more information." That would have been honest.
That's pretty much what I meant by, "the bridges appear to be in serviceable condition." But then, you did not say to GP38 Chris, "it MAY NOT be feasible to build as you envision it."
You also never answered my original question: how do you envision it?
The two sentences are far from being alike. However, if that is what you actually meant, then I will agree with you. End of dispute.
"You also never answered my original question: how do you envision "
Actually, I said so in several previous posts, but not in a unified way. Your request is a good opportunity for me to "integrate" my answer. So here goes:
1) I am assuming that the Rockaway Line is placed in service after ESA, the 63rd Street line, is also in service.
2) In addition to real engineering and environmental challenges, you have major, major NIMBY. Politically powerful NIMBY.
So (tentative plan):
1) The ROW would be extensively evaluated for physical condition. A full engineering study. Nothing moves ahead without this.
2) Areas furthest away from private property and with generous width of ROW could be at grade, with a modern trackbed, continous welded track,etc. and a sound-barrier wall.
3) ROW sections closer to private property or presenting other issues or NIMBY opportunities would be either underground, or encased in a tunnel box. The tunnel box can then be covered as per whatever procedures are available (hill with grass and trees? A pedestrian strollway on top? Look at Boston's Big Dig for examples. The new Central Artery travels in a box like that, if I recall right.
4) Bridges should be inspected and if necessary, replaced - not only for structural safety, but for noise reduction. If the tunnel box design or tunnel can eliminate a bridge altogether, so much the better. Dismantle the bridge, or replace it with a bridge for pedestrians (nature trail?)
5) Stations will obviously be rebuilt to ADA compliance (by law, LIRR has to do that).
There is no need for the line to be at grade. It's not at grade now, it's on an enbankment for most of the route.
As for the LIRR using it, I still would rather see the line used for subway service instead, unless the goal was for LIRR airport access. If not for that reason alone, I don't feel the LIRR is the optimum use, the subway would be, as that could serve local needs the best.
I was using "at grade" to mean surface running, though youare technically correct.
True, but it would require a new bridge for the road instead.
Actually, the stations were spaced in a mass transit fashion in the first place. Look at how close Brooklyn Manor was to Woodhaven. Jamaica Avenue to Atlantic Avenue is subway close already. The "LIRR" aspect of the line would come into play after trains joined to the Mainline up in Rego Park.
But there is service along Jamaica Avenue. And Liberty Avenue. No, my thoughts (obsessions) on this are that with a new LIRR service along the line, the lineside neighborhoods have new opportunities to attract re-development efforts. Surely, the draw of a rail line to Penn Station will give the areas around the stations a "Forest Hills" appeal.
As others have pointed out, the NIMBY element must be dealt with. I just think such a difficult task would be a little easier to accomplish if the rail service being contemplated was LIRR service. Easier than if it was subway service. Sure, it's an irrational pov. But there it is.
I'm gonna have to find out more about the LIRRs' intentions with the line. Off the cuff, I guess we could agree that when it was first built, the areas it passed were separate communities. More to the suburban railroad design. As the city filled in around it, I wonder if the economic levels went down. That is, was the presence of apartment buildings indicative of this? And when the city subway system was extended there, did that only accelerate this process? The LIRR must have thought that the trend was irrevocable.
Also, as far as JFK goes, I think LIRR should use the howard beach segment. Express trains to JFK running:
NYP-Sunnyside-Woodside(other trains running GCT-woodside)-Woodhaven-Aqueduct Race Track(race days only)-JFK
Locals running:
NYP-Sunnyside-Woodside(other trains running GCT-Woodside)-Rego Park-Parkside-Brooklyn Manor-Woodhaven-Ozone Park-Aqueduct Race Track(All year round)-Howard Beach
Which of those is closest to intersecting with the lower montauk? I smell useless transfer station, lol.
Arti
Airtrain serves all of the LIRR at Jamaica.
There is NO NEED< REASON OR PURPOSE to bring LIRR to Howard Beach!
Elais
This being said...
I may make sense to make a subway line out of it.
my master plan extends the (A) train to Jamaica (Supthin Blvd/Hillside Blvd) and as such would require ALL of the (A) train service, taking the (A) out of the Rockaways altogether.
A Replacement Service to the Rockaways might well use more of the Rockaway line. How to connect it to the present system is a matter of conjecture.
Elias
By the way, nothing I've read in my archives indicates that NYCTA ever intended to operate anything on the Rockaway Line other than what it operates now (in other words, nothing north of Liberty Junction), though the NYCTA's 1953-54 annual report has a line drawing of the Rockaway Line that shows the whole thing, including the section north of Liberty Junction that has now been out of service for 41 years (unless I'm mistaken, the LIRR continued to operate through the area until 1962).
David
1. Less Modifications, then if they were to use the subway to get to Midtown Manhattan
2. All That Really Needs to be Done Is Rehabilitation of the Rockaway Branch ROW, including Removal or Rehab of the Following Stations
-Parkside
-Brooklyn Manor
-Ozone Park
3. Higher Speeds
They could either be built or made operational again or completely removed and no trace could remain. (We All Know the MTA is good at making things disappear)
My estimates say all the upgrading, rehabbing and fixing should cost in the $1 to 2 billion range. The ROW is there, the city owns it, and the MTA can easily acquire back that ROW. Lets get a JFK express from Midtown that WOULD ACTULLY COMPETE WITH CARS! The Center Express Tracks must have a higher speed and cannot have any connection to the A line by tracks of the FRA would then have its laws governing the Subway and the MTA we know doesn't want that! So assuming most areas along this route would permit 60mph speeds I think it would be a very fast ride to JFK if it can be done. Assuming maybe, hey during the Rockaway Branch area we boost the speed to 75 it would actually surpass cars. Making it a very viable option, but it has to be cheap, $5 would be the perfect price, not too expensive, and for as fast as it gets you to JFK no matter where or what time of day, it's perfect. No Van Wyck, No Belt Parkway, no snarled traffic, no car accident, no more trying to play "dodge the crazy cabbie" a viable easy to use rail line THAT ACTULLY WORKS!
The NIMBYs along the former Rockaway Beach route instill fear in the MTA, therefore they refuse to even consider something so obvious.
Then you have the PANYNJ, who would fear losing parking fees. Anything for parking revenue, even at the cost of inconvenience…I suppose that having more passengers flying would not make up for that?
Peace,
ANDEE
The for longest time, many people could not get out of the habit of referring to it as the "Port of Authority."
If it were not for containerized freight we would not have the modern trade based global economy we have today.
Piers had a flexibility for shippers of various sizes you don't get with container ports. When you had a real transportation system at the docks, they were not inefficient.
Corruption may be harder with palletized freight, but people engage in illegal activities, not modes. The issue is enforcement. If the subway system were a source of labor corruption and organized crime, would you suggest having everyone drive cars as the remedy?
who would walk away with between 20 and 50% of what came off the ships in loose boxes.
You, of course, have shipped from overseas in loose boxes. Where do you come by your figure?
Waterfronts have always been giant rackets (there is even a famous movie about it) and todays global economy would not be possible with sealed, tamper resistant shipping containers.
Ah, "old timey transportation logistics types." Did they give you the 20%-50% figure you cited?
Ancillary conversations with others, including chuchubob who remembered import products being available in quantity for recuded or no cost
"Reduced or no cost"? Wow! Crooked dock workers are more generous than I remember them!
on Front St before they were available in stores.
I thought Chuchubob was about my age. He must be a lot older than I thought because by the '50s and '60s there was precious little freight being brought in on Front Street. I know Clipper ships were slower than steam freighters, but that's ridiculous! :)
Waterfronts have always been giant rackets (there is even a famous movie about it)
That proves your 20%-50% figure for sure! If more people got their education from Hollywood, we'd save a mint on higher education!
He said 12-20, I upped it in accordance to the other stories I had heard.
"Reduced or no cost"? Wow! Crooked dock workers are more generous than I remember them!
Chuchubob was given a free hi-fi while railfanning the Delaware Ave Trolley.
He must be a lot older than I thought because by the '50s and '60s there was precious little freight being brought in on Front Street.
Front St Philadelphia.
I guess your degree will be in Hyperbole, not Statistics.
You may also want to read "Change At Ozone Park", Herbert George's excellent 1993 book on the LIRR Rockaway Line.
You've been on this board long enough to know how to use the archives. I suggest you do so.
East Side Access Doesn't Need to be Completed to Run this Service, it can run to penn station or short turn at Hunterspoint Avenue, there's an idea. The politicians are chickens for not trying to do something right on a transportation bill, but the cost isn't high at all. Or would you rather have the NIMBY's win and we lose subway service and tunnels just to move around 10,000 people a day as opposed to 80,000? Sound's fair?
If you want you can look through the archieves to see if that's fair
No, because you're not bringing up a fresh post. You're simply going over old ground without bringing up anything new.
I suggested you read the archives to familiarize yourself with what has been discussed and explained. Then come in and present a fresh perspective. Buit you haven't done that.
"Besides I'm lazy,"
Bingo!
"and I hate looking for things, and I especially HATE when people say go look through the archives,"
Your problem, not their problem.
"when in the amount of space and breath they take up saying that they can just reply to the topic"
and instead of pointless complaining you could have gone to the archives and then really posted something new and exciting.
"East Side Access Doesn't Need to be Completed to Run this Service, it can run to penn station"
Not enough track capacity
" or short turn at Hunterspoint Avenue, there's an idea."
Maybe.
Look, dude, get over the laziness, read the archives, newspaper articles, and read the MTA's documents (available on line at MTA's website).
"he politicians are chickens for not trying to do something right"
That's funny, it looks like you are the chicken here...:0)
Is it just me or has Ron gotten more annoying lately? Old age perhaps? Or some other stress factor?
:0)
:0)
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/esas/
Stop being lazy and read.
Do not hire me to design the aesthetics of or decorate a train. You would live to regret it. :0)
They are on test now, and the November 11 copy of RAIL has one on the front page. It looks terrible, round front with sharp lines on the side.
AEM7
I'm still waiting for my agreed upon fee of $32.23. They said "the check is in the mail."
:0)
Walk back toward me slowly. There's a police dog behind you, so don't try anything stupid."
:0)
What city is this train serving?
Spot the train. Where is it? Is this like a camoflauged U.S. Army troop transporter for use in PinkLand?
AEM7
Hey, doesn't the train's front end look like the US Dept. of Trasportation's demonstration SOAC subway car from the 1970s?
Compare this image to your photo.
URL=http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7189
And that little branch line to Manchester and various silly workings to Matlock and to Burton... oh and I nearly forgot Nottingham existed...
I'm actually looking forward to the Meridians. They may look ugly and they are definitely a car or two too short (either that or they should rip out the First Class section to provide enough room for normal people), but it means that the slow trains to London will be so much faster. This should mean more useful stopping patterns (like more trains stopping at Luton AP).
The privatized British Rail had been singlehanded in bringing about ridiculous liveries to the world of passenger railways. Here's another [more extreme] example:
Oh dear, the "be in Birmingham" livery... Crap livery, good campaign - it really - errrm - highlighted how much Brum has come on over the last few years.
Quite frankly I don't care about what colour the Central Trains Class 170s are painted. What is really needed is an extra car or three. Those trains get SO packed between Birmingham and Leicester. I'm told Leicester to Peterborough gets quite full too.
Also, isn't it setting an unfair expectation to the riders to flash an image of the Grand Central clock and a DE30AC? It gives false hope to those in the dieselified sections of LIRR that they'll have a one seat ride between their home station and GCT, when the train will really just keep going to Penn as it always has.
(Of course, all this is dependant upon the Bilevels being too big for the ESA tunnels, which, IIRC they are)
The use of the diesel trains on advertisements is just that - advertising.
Over my dead body!
From SNL...
"Okay, how about 'colors that end in urple' for 800 Alec? (03)
"This color ends in urple.."
Keannu Reaves: "Light urple?"
Alec: "Oh my God"
Keannnu Reaves: "What is light urple?"
Which one? Disappearing or invisable?
Riding the Sea Beach will do that to you ;^)
Sorry, that's used for the Crosstown line.
Why, it could be something else but I'm really nitpicking.
Either way, it's taken.
A BIIIIIIIIG MISTAKE!
By the way, is the 125th St. station intended to be oriented e/w (crosswise to the (4)(5)(6)) or n/s?
Bob Sklar
The letter used was 'T' and the color was light blue, like the color the JFK Express used when it was running.
There's no such color, you say?
Well, there's no SAS either and I'm not sure there ever will be.
So talking about colors on the map is completely pointless.
Of course, had they gone with the Shallow Chrystie option then there could have been a big interchange with the Manny B northside routes. Imagine a rush hour cyan-diamond N running 125th crosstown to Coney Island via the SAS, 4th Ave express and SAS!
1) It's not used anywhere else on the map.
2) It would roughtly follow the ROY-G-BIV pattern on the map. For those of you who never took an art class, ROY-G-BIV refers to the colors of the spectrum in a rainbow: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet (repeat). If you look at the sequence of colors of the Manhattan trunk lines as they cross 14th street from west to east, that's the pattern they follow: Blue, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green. (Actually, there should be an Indigo and Violet line somewhere between 8th and 7th Avenues, but let's not nit-pick.) Too keep that pattern going, any line located in the vincinity of Second Avenue should be some variation of blue.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
A color beyond the range of human vision, because that line will never be built...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The G.O. that was postponed due to a shortage of Bus Operators who were taking the T/O exam is now set for next weekend.
NO SERVICE BETWEEN BROADWAY JUNCTION, BROOKLYN AND 8TH AVE, MANHATTAN. Two shuttle bus routes will operate in Brooklyn.
The advisory is not yet posted on the MTA web site but look for it tomorrow.
Robert
What's this crap?
I know nothing but the Sea Beach is important to you.
But some of us actually live in NYC and care about the whole subway system, and maybe even the railroads too. What kind of behavior is this that you can't tolerate people who are interested in things that you're not interested in?
Look at any 2nd av thread. He gets cranky, and talks like they're something wrong with everyone else.
But the L train is current news, and important to New Yorkers. If he doesn't care about the L, and there's no reason he should, he should keep out of the discussion. He has no right to denigrate something of actual substance, especially after being part of the bitching and moaning thread about how Subtalk isn't what it used to be.
wayne
But the rebuilt flyover from the L to the J isn't finished yet, unless it has been completed.
We've been through this before.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What would bankrupt NYCT for extending the J one stop to Fulton and leave Broad St closed?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
www.forgotten-ny.com
They're perfectly capable of delivering weekend service. They just have to suspend it from time to time to make improvements.
You think any other system is different? I once took a train in from O'Hare midday Saturday and we sat for half an hour so we could wrong rail for a stretch because of maintenance work. At least the MTA doesn't do that kind of stuff!
London shut down a line for 6 weeks because they had maintenance issues! At least NYC keeps the shutdowns to the weekend.
Sure they do. Ever Ride the G late nights? Single track from Nassau to Bedford-Nost. Add to that that they make you transfer to a crap shuttle afterward!
You confirmed my point. NYCT does it late nights, not midday Saturday.
They're perfectly capable of delivering weekend service. They just have to suspend it from time to time to make improvements. <<<
Most weekends (to cover myself, substitute 'many' for most') either of the W or 7 is suspended between Manhattan and Queens.
The MTA needs to be more forthright and explain what type of work is going on.
The Q was suspended over the Manhattan Bridge all summer.
Until the mid-70s, when the system began to break down, I didn't seem to notice very many weekend service interuptions. Perhaps I was too young to notice.
But there just seem to be endless closures, either for repair or maintenance.
The MTA should admit that it cannot deliver the same service on weekends as it does during the week, and it may be a permanent condition.
On Feb. 22 both sides of the Manhattan Bridge are supposed to be working again; how many weekends will they both be open?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is this track map readable? I wouldn't mind making LIRR track map for nycsubway.org site
Michael Calcagno
How many pages are there? does it show all tracks between Penn Station and all points east?
Thanks again!
Michael Calcagno
Thanks!
4 line poster
Now if you are coming from Bedford Park, how is the train going to stop at 161st st/Yankee Stadium and let customers off from the express track? Really, that's what the poster says.
DUH!
Tho I personally know a few YAWNkee fans who would JUMP if an active
track were to be placed infront of them...
1Shea9
1Shea9
Obviously, anyone headed southbound to 167th Street (for example) will end up changing at 149th Street (which of course is what the poster should have said), since the train won't actually stop at 161st Street, so I don't think that error on the poster will cause anyone any problems. Still....YEESH....there's no reason for those posters to keep coming out with wrong info on them. It's not THAT hard to get 'em right!
Or was there some other station that looked like that?
why isn't there any transfer possibility between the N and R Brooklyn-Manhattan vv. trains and the A, C and F Brooklyn-Manhattan trains, neither in Brooklyn nor in Manhattan? I know this has an historical background, but since unification took place quite some time ago, why didn't they build it? It doesn't seem like a low-priority transfer to me. A tranfser could be provided, for example, in Brooklyn between W Jay St. Borough Hall and Lawrence St. These stations are practically on top of each other.
Now I'm not a NYC resident, I don't even live in the US, so if this question seems just outright stupid to you, this is why ;-)
It's on the list. But I don't understand what is so expensive or time-comsuming - even if they have to make it ADA compliant, it shouldn't take this long. They are LITERALLY right on top of each other!
You may want to take a closer look at the subway map because:
There is a transfer between the N & R trains (9th St) to the F train (4th Av) in Brooklyn. Passengers can take the F from here to Jay and get the A.
And once the Coney Island terminal complex is finished the transfer between the F and the N will be restored.
There are transfers in Manhattan:
34th St/6th AV/Broadway between the N, R, Q, W and the B, D, F, V
42nd St between the N, R, Q, W and the A, C, E (and the 1,2,3,7, S). This is not the easiest transfer but it does exist.
You say you are not in the US. Where are you?
Btw: I'm from Amsterdam, City Of The Many Drug-Abusing Tourists ;-)
You would suprised how well that the existing connections work for a lot of people.
If you are on 34th Street and need to get to a station on the Culver Line, just walk over to 6th Avenue, If you need a station on the Fulton Line, just walk over to 8th Avenue.
Bottom Line: While more connections are useful, they are not at all urgent, nor worth priority spending.
Elias
That transfer from the BMT to the IND involves a heck of a lot of climbing. This is one station where an elevator should be installed pronto, whether or not it's on the "key stations" list (I don't know if it is) or if it's planned for full ADA upgrades.
And its utility is limited by the fact that it's a local station on both lines, much like many IND transfers to the other divisions. Passengers transferring to the G are taunted by relaying G trains that they know they can't catch.
But at least it's there. The planned Jay-Lawrence transfer is long overdue.
It's just the MTA doesn't want to enter the 21st century.
Yes they do, but it is limited to the salaries of the MTA Executives.
I wish that the two-hour transfer window were turned into a two-hour unlimited usage window, which would eliminate all of these transfer problems, but it's hard to argue that a two-hour unlimited usage window wouldn't result in a loss of revenue. Perhaps it'll be tossed in as a sweetener to the next fare hike, much as the improved PPR bonus and the free insurance program were tossed in as sweeteners to this year's.
Translink (Vancouver BC area, mostly bus-based) has an interesting way of handling this. Transfers are valid in the applicable zone(s) for 90 minutes without restrictions. There's a catch, however. There are no free transfers and few routes go directly from anywhere to anywhere. If your trip lasts longer than 90 minutes, you've got to buy another fare.
While there are no single trips that exceed 90 minutes on what passes for the subway here, combination bus/skytrain or inter regional bus trips can easily run over the 90 minute window: $8 cdn, one way.
I've made single-fare round trips courtesy of 59/Lex, 51/Lex, Court Square, and Stillwell.
Look around those two stations, I'm sure there's not many people that do.
Seriously though, I understand what you are saying. Isn't there a way that the technology is there that you would have to "swipe out" at the fare control area of the MetroCard transfer station you are leaving (Livonia) and can only reswipe at the corresponding transfer station (Junius) to re-enter, meaning you can't re-enter at Livonia? Of course a flaw even with that would still mean someone could renter at Junius, travel to Franklin to Botonic Garden to Fulton to BJ back to the L. But of course this loophole would only be good for people traveling directly to from the various MetroCard transfer stations (like the example given), which in the scheme of things is probably marginal compared to all the people that would benefit legitimatley from the out of system transfers in some spots. But you did prove that there could be some revenue loss due to it.
Actual exit swipes would be too onerous, and it would be too easy to cheat by faking an exit swipe from outside fare control. But there could be a bank of MetroCard encoders on some wall well away from the turnstiles. The transfer would only be free if the card had been run through an encoder at the connecting station within, say, 10 minutes. That would eliminate all but the very quickest errands, and even they would have to go the long way around on the return trip.
IMO, Broadway-Laf - Bleecker uptown (which, incidentally, is of primary benefit to Brooklynites) is a higher priority.
How does Brooklyn rate? Many lines in Brooklyn are slated to have substantial service increases in three months. Five major transfer points in Brooklyn are currently undergoing major multiyear rehabs, including ADA (I'm not sure if DeKalb is getting ADA, but the other four certainly are). (The Brighton is next in line. And the West End just got a new signal system.) Brooklyn is the testbed for CBTC, which, if you believe the hype, will lead to service increases. Only in Brooklyn is an interlocking that hasn't been used in revenue service since 1976 being reconstructed over a period of multiple years, just so it could potentially be used in the future, when it could be much more easily abandoned. Blame the IND planners for the poor connections in Brooklyn and elsewhere -- the MTA is just working with the network as it exists, and appears to be doing quite a lot for Brooklyn.
My point about Brooklyn was that it seems to me a couple of metrocard transfers were set up in Manhattan in the past several years as well as one in Queens as part of the G/V controversy.
Maybe in the long run it is cheaper to just establish free transfers using metrocards rather than actual construction at many of those places which, through historical accidents, were not set up with transfers.
A MetroCard transfer is a decent stopgap measure but it's hardly a permanent solution. Have you ever transferred between the F at 63/Lex and the 4/5/6 three blocks down?
?????????????
Click away. This is being treated badly, or worse than the other boroughs? Sure, Brooklyn has it's fair share of stations in need of repair, but so do all the boroughs, including Manhattan. The wealth is spread fairly evenly, and Brooklyn even has the newest trains on the B division.
Damn, you have a great idea there! Have you written to the TA?
Are there plans to put a physical transfer between Jay-Lawrence? I seem to remember something about that...did I read that here on Subtalk?
Again, MTA is talking of spending millions to physically join the stations (as well as I believe Bleeker St. northbound in Manhattan). Why not just institute metrocard transfers at these locations. Since many of the metrocards are unlimited rides anyway, it just can't represent that big a threat to MTA income to do this. And it would only take about 5 minutes of programming to do it. It could be instituted tomorrow if the MTA truly gave a damn about passengers.
Metrocard transfers do represent a substantial revenue loss because now passengers can make round trips for the price of a single fare.
Before my work pattern changed and I started using an unlimited, I made many $1.67 round trips to 53rd and Lex or 59th and Lex. I went there and then returned for free.
I admit that Junius and Livonia isn't such a major destination, however, and they wouldn't lose much money there.
And once the Coney Island terminal complex is finished the transfer between the F and the N will be restored
But that involves backtracking all the way to Stillwell for many people. Who would want to use that transfer, especially if you are near the northern end of the Sea Beach. Let's say your home station was 20th Ave-Sea Beach, and you were destined for 23rd-8th as a work station. WOuld you want to travel to Coney Island to take the F to Jay Street or West 4th for the A? Even now your commute would be a pain without the Jay St-Lawrence connection. You would have to get off your comfortable N for the R to go to 9th to take the F to Jay to get the A to 23rd/9th (or take the N to Union Square to get the L to 8th to the A to 23rd). Wouldn't it be much easier to take the N to Lawrence to the A to 23rd, 2 trains as opposed to 3 or 4 or worse?
You have to admit that since there are many unlimited metrocards out there, the policy is discriminatory against the per use rider. But the fact is there are some metrocard transfer points...Jay St. Lawrence Street just makes a lot of sense as a transfer point.
New York is the greatest.
Link here.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub133539453nov13,0,3441421.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists
Very funny indeed!
OR
The Boston Red Sox will win a World Series.
Robert
Theres nothing in the rings but ice, and the largest is less than a mile across. Not much to colonize!
(More information about Saturn here: http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/features/planets/saturn/saturn.html.
http://globalguestpoll.com/
http://www.go2poll.com/
It is a lot easier to compile the results and then to view them. It also dosen't flood the board with posts.
In how many Subtalk polls has the originator bothered (or even been able) to tabulate the results?!
Which would still happen. All that would eliminated would be the contentless vote casting posts.
In how many Subtalk polls has the originator bothered (or even been able) to tabulate the results?!
Exectly, the results have been impossible to tabulate. Maybe the discussions could be more interesting if they actually had something to discuss, ie the poll results.
Sox only fighting curse.
SAS fighting NYC attitude.
Howzabout a thread for the stations nobody ever talks about? The stations that just do their job but have no special redeeming factors that otherwise bring them mention to SubTalk.
I'd like to see a list of "Blandest Stations by Line". The criteria is that there's just nothing particularly special about the station.
My nominees are:
1/9 - 157 Street
7 - 69th Street
A - 80th Street
C - 103 Street
F - Sutphin Blvd.
Q - Avenue U
LIRR Long Beach - East Rockaway
LIRR Babylon - Baldwin
LIRR West Hempstead - Lakeview
LIRR Far Rockaway - Lawrence
LIRR Hempstead - Nassau Blvd.
LIRR Huntington/Port Jeff - Westbury
NJT NEC - Edison
NJT Montclair/Boonton - Little Falls
I chose the above lines because those are the ones I know well enough to select a station from among the candidates. What stations on other lines are the "blandest"?
Also feel free to agree/disagree with the above -- but if you disagree you should support your disagreement by stating something notable about the station and identify another station on the line with fewer notable features.
CG
wayne
CG
CG
I (rather unscientifcally) paced off the distance one day and found that all four tracks are beneath the east side of CPW -- which would tend to support the rumor.
CG
Of course, that didn't occur because of the BRT bankruptcy and the eventual building of the IND system.
wayne
Dunno, Bethpage is a bit unusual what with a major grade crossing immediately adjacent to the platforms. Also note that the ticket office is located across the road from the platforms.
Its arched roof is unusual.
NYCT
Any station on the Sea Beach line from 8th Ave to 86th st. (Just kidding!)
Union Street/BMT
Sutter/Rutland/IRT
138th St GC and 138th st/3rd Ave
Northern Blvd/IND
New Lots Ave/BMT only
I disagree with Westbury being among the dullest stations. Carle Place is worse than Westbury because it has no ticket office/waiting area (Westbury has a fairly nice waiting area, at least the interior and not the dull exterior or the underpass). Also Carle Place has a strange bridge from the E/B side to street, not the stairs from Cherry Lane but the other ramp. Imagine waiting there at night.
Also Westbury has 2 bus lines available (N22 and N35) while Carle Place has only the N22.
Perhaps there will need to be some kind of sudden death bland-off between Westbury and Carle Place if no credible alternative emerges.
CG
I disagree. It is one of only two 8th Avenue local stations to have an original tile band, and at the north end of the station, the northbound express begins to move away from the northbound local in order to facilitate the normalization to one level service by 110th Street.
wayne
The first IND stations followed the convention: local stations had colored tablet and no tile band; the express stations had tile bands two tiles high with borders. They changed that to the following convention: local stations had tile bands two tiles high, express stations had three tiles high, starting with West 4 and going south.
wayne
If a station was especially bland, then it wouldn't really be bland, like 57/6.
169 St gets my vote; how the hell do you compliment a station with a reddish-orange tileband with SEAFOAM GREEN STATION PILLARS?
The handrailings at that station used to be in that same color until they painted in the traditional yellow last year.
While it does look tacky, they shouldn't change it. It adds character (to me it does).
wayne
Roosevelt may get the same treatment...
wayne
Roosevelt needs repainting (blue would work well there), also 36th Street (red), all three of the yellow family stations (Union, Van Wyck and Sutphin) and 169th Street are all wrong. Oh yes, Elmhurst too.
wayne
Others worth mentioning:
Broadway (IND Crosstown): Cadet blue
Bedford-Nostrand: Red
Fulton St (IND Crosstown): blue violet
Clinton Washington Avenue and Flushing Avenue: both have yellow
Metropolitan Avenue-Grand St used to have red, but now has dark green pillars which match very well with the tiling.
It's here
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/modernsubs/modernsub.html
Not to say I like it, but that makes it not bland.
161st and Mosholu Parkway on the 4 both have mosaics, quite typical for the subway but quite atypical for elevated stations. Do or did any other elevated stations have similar mosaics? (Dyckman on the 1 also has mosaics, of sorts, but they're nothing like what's found underground.) How did they end up at those two stations?
More than likely, they were just trying to save money, to make themselves look good.
Also, it's easier to maintain.
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
MTA New York City Transit Service Alert
Posted on:11/13/03 3:31:37 PM
Due to a Gas leaknear the Brighton Beach Station, service on the line is suspended between the Brighton Beach and King's Hwy stations until further notice. Also, because of a tree on the roadbed, Brighton Beach-bound trains are running express between Prospect Park and King's Hwy..
(Glad I checked this before leaving the office. Time to find an alternate route home.)
That's better than yesterday, when a Q local had to be taken out of service because of vandalism one stop into its northbound run, hogging the local track for so long that the two following locals had to run express to Kings Highway.
What about the tree on the local track?
You know, the funny thing is, Ron got more annoying in response to the attacks. CC LOCAL also got more annoying, to the point that he annoyed me. But somehow American Pig and Jersey Mike never got that annoying, even when they are attacking other people.
Oh, another point -- I find SUBWAYSURF positively annoying also, even though he doesn't take part in any of those fights. I also find the SelkirkTMO response just hiliarious.
AEM7
Nah.
As The Trainwheel Turns
The Edge of Platform (of which we would push the Pig and Mike off).
How about 'All My Subtalkers'? Eh, not as witty.
No, we do not throw Pigs and Jersey Mike off anything. They are fine. No problem.
we just blindfold them and let them walk off on their own.
You speak one way, but you act a different way.
You speak one way, but you act a different way.
I've heard that term numerous times though.
Chuck Greene
But are not these terms part of a set of ethnic slurs on native Americans?
No, Southwest Asians.
That's quite beside the point, as you well know.
in the common usage means tracing your ancestry on this continent back long before the Pinta the Nina and the Santa Maria.
So we go back to the original point: "Indian giver" is a prejudicial term invoking a stereotype of a particular ethnic group.
Just like saying "He wanted to charge me $500 but I Jewed him down to $250." That was a pretty common stereotype phrase back in the 1940s and 1950s.
Sheee. Yit. Anyone born in a country is a "native" citizen of that country. This is how America became what it is, and remains so. "They" become "us'.
And BTW, FWIK, the pre-Columbian population was resident here for about 8 to 10 thousand years. That's quite a long stretch...but they still lost ground. Nothing, nothing in life is guaranteed, not even civilizations. It's still survival of the fittest...but at least, we've made most of the dirty parts of that struggle a collective. So individuals are relieved of the burden of first needing to secure their personal safety before they advance to more etherial concerns. This is the magic and wonder of government...and, yes, politics.
If you disagree, tell me, how many wolves did you have to kill today?
I agree with you there 100%. But it has absolutely nothing to do with being walking the streets today and being insensitive to someone who is not a caucasian and then blowing it off to "that's just politically correct."
I'm not saying you went and did that today. But I guarantee that an American Indian (the preColumbus kind, OK) would be profoundly offended at reading your posts (and Jeffrey Rosen's).
...but all I said was, the pre-Columbian population was on this continent for eight to ten thousand years. Way, way longer than the "European" and "African" population. That statement of facts should have null offensive content. "We" moved in...and took over. One could ask: Eight thousand years is a long time, why didn't that civilization develop things like radio and surgery? I think we have to acknowledge that this pre-Columbian population was not, uh, advancing. That is to say, the youngsters didn't have much to look forward to, as far as knowing that their living conditions, hygiene, knowledge of the universe, etc., were going to become better, cleaner or more knowledgable. What great-great-great-great-great-great grandmaw knew was what great-great-great-great-great-great granddaughter was going to know.
Some call that "equalibrium with nature". Or "co-existing with nature'. I call it stagnation.
I think too many people on both sides of the issue are too eager to jump on the words and not listen to or understand the thoughts behind them. There are plenty who use politically correct speech, but with the most prejudicial thoughts behind it and there also those who use crude speech with no malice intended.
Some people like to jump up and down and yell just because they hear a politically incorrect phrase.
Today's discussion reminds me of a discussion I had going back at the 1996 Olympics where a relative of mine insisted that the great British sprinter Linford Christie was an "African-American".
CG
Now, THAT is funny!!!
And the Indians were named after a South Asian peoples by a European, who came well after the Pre-Columbian Americans.
CG
I was born in Jamaica Hospital in the Borough of Queens in the City of New York in the State of New York in the United States of America. You can't get more "native" than that. Those expressions never bothered me.
If you are an American Indian, then I commend your attitude.
If you are white, then your comment would, if heard by an Indian, be exactly analogous to saying "Nigger doesn't bother ME at all. Why should it bother you?" to a black man.
You can pretend all you want, and decry what you think is politically corrrect, and that is your right, but it does bother me that your post doesn't show any sensitivity at all to the effects of prejudicial remarks and prejudicial language.
I've said not a thing regarding those subjects. I objected to the usage of a common term, due to certain people wanting to be called by that term to the exclusion of all others. And I stand by that. If you're born in a country, you're native to that country. In this life, brother, there are more things to be sensitive about than sand on the beach. So, your sensitivities are "better" than my sensitivities? I don't think you mean that.
Hmmm, I have ancestry from Italy, Ireland, England, Canada and Germany. Think of all the injustices (or crimes) suffered or committed by all those "huddled masses". But I can't be bothered. I'm here, now. I'll treat anyone with dignity and respect. Until they treat me otherwise. Don't ask me to reserve "special" sympathy for "special" people. All humans deserve some sympathy, all of us.
That is what you said. Society at large willgenerally take that to mean that you are making fun of American Indians, and I will agree with that view. So you end up sticking your foot in your mouth.
Uh huh. Well, it wouldn't be the first time, neither. I live and learn. Anyway, I don't think "society" would be correct in that judgement. What the hell else am I supposed to call myself? Trespasser? Foul two legged creature? Immigrant? Alien visitor?
Even you must consider yourself to be "native". It's a descriptive, that's all.
Sorry, RonInBayside. I'm not Italo-American. I'm not Irish-American. I am a native-born citizen of this country. So I'll call myself a native American. Not that I'm going to traipse about carrying a sign or anything. But if anyone asks, that's what I'll answer. Just as my Dominican friends who were born en la Republica Dominicana consider themselves to be native Dominicans.
About this I will not yield.
American is fine. "Native American" is one thing, and "native-born American" is something else. Subyle? Maybe. But there you are.
You're denotng one thing, and others around you will connote something else.
You don't have to yield on anything. But if you describe tourself that way in many situations, including work, people will assume you mean Indian.
In addition, if you use that term in connection with some government program (where benefits are intended for a minority), you could be prosecuted.
You do what you want, no matter how idiotic. It's a free country.
MOUNTAINIST!!!!! You have no mention of mountain in your name!
(You don't get my obtuse sense of humour :-p)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, that's how I refer to SubTalk on the Strapcomplainers board! :)
I'm sorry if you find it annoying.
Killfiling is silly, but you can use it to help you spot certain people's posts faster (in other words, use it for a productive reason, not a negative reason).
However, it would be nice to have a topic filter - because that would help organize the posts so you can read them more efficiently.
I do feel the almost constant "snipe hunt" a little tiring, plus I think Pigs might haver been part of the reason that TD stopped posting. I miss his info.
How is that possible? I hardly ever responded to his posts. He didn't bother me very much.
In the thread that led up to "Train Dude: Lighten Up," yes, I did respond to Train Dude negatively, but I was responding to his attacks on service workers and young people (and particularly his attacks on J Trainloco).
You shouldn't wrongfully accuse people with little or no real evidence. I should point out that I really have nothing against YOU, and this is not meant as an attack on you.
I also am sick of the attacks, but I cannot in good conscience surrender until RonInBS admits that he was a bigot and despite all my attempts to either confront it or ignore it, he continues to spew his filth from time to time.
Some Cambridge (MA) Liberals are the biggest bigots I know. They drive around in large cars and expect others to take transit. They displace the poor from inner-city neighbourhoods so they can gentrify them. They love to turn the city into a suburb.
He's great. I love his posts on religion and ethics..and his station and history descriptions are awesome.
I play with him (and he with me), and sometimes torture a bit too much, though. I need to throttle back.
Yes you do, but you lie about it. If you weren't lying, then you would stop insulting me.
He's a kid, but that's perfectly OK.
No I am not, but you are a fool.
I play with him (and he with me)
Your posts are patronizing, insulting and condescending. They do not belong here, they do not belong anywhere.
He says he's joking with a post in this thread earlier, but you'll probably say he's lying to me as well. Maybe you're being paranoid?
I guess you've never met any intolerant conservative elitists who dare to discredit anyone who disagrees with them.
I don't like Ron's style of argument, but there's nothing particularly "liberal elitist" about it.
Escape now while you still have a chance.
:0)
:0)
They either have to be painted bright colors, or in the case of Baltimore's police copters, black with silver.
We have (drum roll) POLITCAL FUN!!.
We have a Republican Governor, a solidly Democratic General Assembly, and a voter registration that is still 2-1 in favor of the Democrats.
We also have a transit authority that is out of control.
The General Assembly session begins in January. Last year the Speaker of the House of Delegates (who, like 88% of the delegates is a Democrat) derailed the slots proposal, making him persona-non-gratia at the Governor's Mansion. On the off-season, a bunch of Senators and Delegates toured the state, getting all the citizen info they could.
This session should prove very interesting. (like the old Chinese curse)
The racing interests are all for slots, the gambling interests are salivating, and the voters are basicly tired of all the flak being issued in the various media.
Meanwhile, tolls on the various tunnels and bridges were doubled, the counties are crying poor mouth.
Transit fare went up from $1.35 to $1.60 a ride in June. All during the hearings the rate being proposed was $1.50, suddenly Bobby's Transportation Secretary announced the 10 cent more fare.
Ridership, strangely, seems to be holding. Will wonders never cease?
By the way, the only bone I have to pick with ron is the way he attacked me when i posted something about a derailment at Corona and he told me to get a life.
No, I wanted to see what kind of stuff I'd find on their professorial web sites. Usually faculty on universities each have a webpage listing research projects, interests, sometimes lectures, and the like.
Check out AEM-7's directory of research papers, for example. Neat stuff.
AIM did not have any listing at either CUNY or Cooper Union. I think colleges should promote their faculty, not hide them. So I brought it up. Besides, AIM does not have an active handle, so there was no way for me to mail him.
As to Stephen, well, he opens his mouth plenty, and professes specific expertise in subway operations far above the level than posters here from the TA do. So I wanted to find out about his background, and I did.
There is no inherent right of privacy on the Web. Don't like that? That's strictly your problem.
Now stop being a doofus and let's get back to the business at hand.
Ron's bigotry is well documented on this board
This is just the first of many such posts
Here he clearly admits his bias, as a response to SOMEONE ELSE, so it's not just against me
Then he denies that he has ever "belittled" my age, so I decide not to respond and give up on the matter
Of course, he, like all filthmongers, comes back to his old ways
That is not bigotry. It is accurate observation based on your posts.
Now, I will assume in this post that you truly felt insulted.
Therefore, I apologize for having hurt your feelings. That was not my intention.
Now you see why your apologies are hollow. You still continue to post your biased bullshit.
That is not bigotry. It is accurate observation based on your posts.
It is clearly bigotry. Would you go ahead and say that a female poster's posts were bad because she was a female? Or a black person because he/she is black? You would not. This is no different.
Now, I will assume in this post that you truly felt insulted.
Took you long enough.
Therefore, I apologize for having hurt your feelings.
Even after you continue to espouse the same hatred in the SAME POST? Your apology is worth less than a Turkish Lira.
That was not my intention.
Then you have the most insane worldview, you assume that you can go ahead and post your prejudices and not insult anyone. This posts proves that you continue to hold that worldview, and that you have learned nothing.
Train Dude is a respected and typical maintenance manager. Although he may have seemed a little rough on the outside, he always meant well. The MTA issue, the fact that this board has changed, and the fact that people have other things to do and little spare time, all has to do with his not posting here. American Pig isn't really that much to do with it.
I've been attacked here before, personally. So has Jersey Mike. If something doesn't bother me, it ain't gonna bother Train Dude. I'm tough, but he's 100,000 times tougher than me. He make trains go. I just organize traincrew.
AEM7
I agree that Train Dude doesn't post here because of his own reasons.
Or maybe he changed his handle and is here still. Only David Pirmann would know for sure.
I wouldn't think so. His writing style was quite distinctive.
If he DOES feel like coming back, rest assured it'll be under his "Train Dude" handle ... but his absence was HIS choice, not anyone else's. :)
And no, though I'm busier than a one-legged kickboxer trying to survive (had our gas turned off for not enough money to pay the bill) I ain't going anywhere - but at the moment, a little too busy trying to get folks to buy some software.
Personally I don't know what this is all about because I haven't read any of it.
Some of those you mention do get into thoughtful debates ... those I read. As for the others, why are you wasting your time on those posts ?
However, I apologize for hurting your feelings. I think it's important for me to do that because you are being distracted from posting the kindsw of things that I like to read from you.
I will apologize for this and other similar posts. I was wrong in overreacting to them, it didn't endear me to the group and it probably smeared my name up to this point where I'm wrongly accussed of posting more fluff than others and of scaring away other SubTalkers (who may have deserved to be scared away, but I can't be given credit for that).
VC Madman
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thank you,
LorDiehl
Well Done!!
If not, approximately where was the old station relative to where the two "newer" ones are?
Also - the current LIRR Far Rock station is at ground level and the A train station is elevated. I assume that before the line was severed trains would ascend/descend a ramp to get to and from the different portions of the line. Was that a steel ramp or a dirt berm ramp?
Regards,
Jimmy
False statement. JFK's terminals cannot accommodate 85' cars, so the PA would have had to build a circulator anyway, and today the lack of sufficient track capacity under the East River would have made the line virtually unuseable in any event. The whole concept is nonsensical, and I have no doubt somebody bright at the TA understood that when the transfer from the LIRR happened. You're revisiting railbuff fantasy land (of course this is Subtalk, so people like to promote things that only work in HO gauge in their garages).
Now, there is an option nobody here has mentioned, but you almost did. The Far Rockaway Branch could have had a branch itself going to JFK.
A Far Rockaway to JFK service would still require an AirTrain type circulator, but would have been viable since it would have involved extending existing rail service a few more stops rather than trying to run a service which today is a non-starter.
I don't know what kind of ROW development or NIMBY issues a Far Rockaway Branch JFK service would have involved. Maybe it could have been done, or maybe NIMBY would have killed it. ???
My compliments.
Interesting observation. If the trestle had not burned down on the LIRR, it is iteresting to see what would have happened to the Rockaway line. It's all under the bridge so to speak, but two things in my opinion would have happened, and they are extreme opposites:
-If the Rockaway Line had survived just a few years longer, not even a decade, it would have been known how valuable this line could have been to JFK. If the trains never stopped rolling, and slow increases had been implemented, the NIMBY's would have been used to the line. Whether it would have become a subway line or remain an LIRR line I don't know.
-If there was no fire, but service continued to decline the way it had been on the line, the LIRR might have just been ready to dump it even then. However, the money may not have been there to convert it to the subway, and ar this point we may be talking about how horrible it was that the subway didn't take over ANY part of the line, and we wouldn't have even the subway part of the line now. Certainly a bad thing.
If you look carefully, you will not see a station on the NYCT side, just a parked A train. That train appears to be in layup. The station in the photo is the original LIRR Far Rock station that no longer exists.
Correct the original Mott Ave station was demolished, and the new subway one was built about the location of that train in lay-up. I don't remember ever seeing a photo of the incline at Far Rockaway that must have taken place just east of the original Mott Ave station, and have many books on the subject. If I come up with one, I'll let you know.
Seen a Spanish couple that goes around the trains asking for donations to "help" with the burial expenses of their 5 month old daughter who died in a fire that engulfed their home.
I saw them last year with that story. I didn't believe them for some strange reason beacuse that "they lost their house to a fire and when we woke up after the fire, we discovered our daugther dead." You run out of the house, WITH you baby, then find out if she's alive or not And I saw them yesterday on the Uptown #2 train in Manhattan. They said that the city's ME office will creamate the body unless it is recovered in several days and they need to raise $2,000 for the baby's funeral.
I thought anyone that is unclaimed for burial after a certain period is shipped to Potters Field, off City Island.
This is not meant that I am a cold person, I am far from that. I feel the New Yorkers should not give money to anyone that is a con artist or liar. The UHO people and the man who "suffered" a stroke that half of his body is semi-paralyzed are two examples of such.
tim
"Multipurpose Outreach Tables
UHO was the first organization in New York City to set up outreach tables at locations throughtout New York to help the homeless help themselves. UHO tables serve the following functions: first, they are a 'community center' for the homeless, where they can obtain information, referrals, and emergency counseling and support; second, they keep the issue of homelessness in the public consciousness; third, clients who staff the tables learn how to work and to deal with the public; fourth, they encourage the public to make donations of small amounts that defray administrative costs and provide emergency relief to the homeless person who is staffing the table. The tables also serve as a collection and distribution center for food and clothing."
Here's a link to UHO's homepage:
UHO
I regularly see someone set up in front of Fairway Supermarket at Broadway & 73rd Street.
But their activity, while slimy, is still protected speech, so they have the right to do it.
Yea they are legit (tongue in check)
Peace,
ANDEE
I CAN? Wow! Thanks Tim!
The couple doesn't want you to think about what will happen to their daughter's unclimed body if they can't bury her. They bury the body on Hart's Island. They are just trying to give you a sob story so that they can get a few dollars.
I always thought someone who suffered a stroke and has a body partually paralised wouldn't be able to walk on a moving subway.
Regards,
Jimmy
--Z--
That does not make you cold. Anyone that knows me knows that I am a generous person. However, it would take a gun to my head to give money to most pandhandlers in the subway (or out on the street for that matter). It's not being cold, it's called not being a sucker. It sounds harsh, but unfortunately, I don't believe many of these people begging for money in the subway. I give when I can, and when I feel the person is not a con-artist, and unfortunately, I think many pandhandlers on the subway are making a living by doing it, not because they "need" it.
"Judge not, though yea shall not be judged.."
One evening a guy was making the rounds and getting the usual shrugs, sorries and spare change from the commuters and I just got fed up with the whole thing. When he got to me, I exclaimed (in a much louder than usual voice) "You've got $2.25 and you need to get to Freeport. No problem. Just walk right down there and take the E train to Jamaica where you can catch the N4. You'll be just fine and you'll even have 25 cents left over for next time." He gave me a brief "Uh, thanks" and walked off -- in the wrong direction.
From that day forward, I used the same approach for everyone who tried that scam -- even if the advice I gave wasn't true ("Sure, take the E train to Jamaica and then catch the N96 to Smithtown -- it'll only cost you $1.75"). If anyone had ever taken me seriously (and, say, asked about where the transfer was, or which stop in Jamaca I probably would have bought them the ticket on the LIRR.
CG
At least the kids selling candy, and claiming to save money for their basketball uniforms are offering something instead of these frauds.
Pics are legal on the subway without a permit, as long as you don't use flash or tripods.
1) SIRT Arlington Branch
2) LIRR Rockaway Branch
So tell me. Who is interested?
Email me: MuseumCar@aol.com
I was figuring the last weekend of November or the first weekend of December.
This is what I live for...
thanks.
tim
Those who wish to join Mr. Turkeli's 90-minute tours should gather at 12:30 p.m. on the fourth Monday of every month at the tourist information booth in the station's rotunda; information is available at (917) 438-5123.
Here's a link to the full article in the Times
tim
The other day, I bought a copy of "The Destruction of Penn Station" in Strand Bookstore for about $30. Peter Moore photographed the demolition ofthe stationfrom late 1963 until 1966. The pictures are black and white and are awesome.
The Municipal Arts Society gives tours every Wednesday at 12:30. I think they meet by the information booth. I think the glass walkways are off limits and are no longer part of the tours. People still use them, but they are the doors leading into them are locked. Years ago, I was on them and they were "awesome" also. Particularly neat are the cranks and gears that opened and closed the windows.
On your own, you can take a look at the tennis courts on the 2nd or 3rd floor of the station. Usually the people who man the front desk there are friendly and will show you around. If you have $60 to $100 to spare, you can rent a tennis court for an hour.
There is another free tour of Grand Central given by Justin Ferate every Friday at 12:30, which meets across the street in the Sculpture Garden of the Whitney Museum annex. I went on it a couple of months ago. Justin Ferate is quite a trip. He is very knowledgable and quite a showman. He has a deep sense of what New York City is all about. Here's a link to more information about this tour:
Justin Ferate's tour of Grand Central Area
tim
Here's a phone number for info: (917) 438-5123
tim
This is a reminder that Saturday, November 15, is the annual meeting at the Museum, during which elections for the Board of Directors will be held. Please make the time to vome up and have your voice heard, as the outcome of this election will have a direct impact on the future of rapid transit operations at the Museum.
You must vote in person. I'm aware of the implications for Orthodox members, but there is no provision for absentee balloting.
I guess I'll be going to Jay St to pee in a cup:)
-Stef
-Robert King
I support the be-a-motorman promotion as a recruiting tool for new members. It is my hope that many of those who join through this program will become active members, contributing their time (and, yes, their dollars) to the restoration and preservation of our streetcar and rapid transit heritage. Existing members, as Lou has pointed out, also have the opportunity to operate the equipment on Member's Day and other times. I'd like more opportunities myself, but when I'm at the Museum (almost twenty days so far this year, with the Annual Meeting and four more operating days planned) I am usually too busy with our visitors to do more than give the RT equipment a passing glance - no time to ride let alone anything else. And that's OK with me. The "wise ass rail fans" are welcome to come ride our Redbird, and everything else; after all, if the cars just sit around gathering dust, touched by only those select few who have put forth the effort at restoring them, pretty soon there will be no one left to care and all our work will have been for naught.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As the Corporate Secretary of BSM, I handle the election process. The ballots are sent out with the Annual Meeting notice, along with the Proxy and return envelopes. The members recieve only the number of ballots specified by their membership class. After the mailing is posted, all extra ballots are destroyed. If you loose yours, or the dog eats it, tough.
The process has worked well since 1987.
Frank Hicks
That's correct. Regular (voting) Member status at IRM is sort of a recognition of Working Member status. Of course not everyone who volunteers at the Museum is a regular member, but every regular member has put in a certain number of hours in all of the major departments and has presumably picked up a pretty good idea of the work that goes into running the Museum. Aspirants to regular membership also keep a log of their activities during a required one-year "probationary" period, during which they must work in the major departments as mentioned above. At the end of the year, they bring their log and the signatures of the various department heads to the Board of Directors and their application is voted on. I've never heard of anyone's application actually being voted down; if the requirements have been met, the vote is basically a formality. The idea is that the process will ensure that the people who run the Museum are the same ones who put in the volunteer hours and do the work; I suppose opinions vary on how well this works!
Frank Hicks
A single membership gets a single vote.
Every eliigible member who can vote also recieves a Proxy, which is used only to represent the member at a meeting that requires a vote by those present when he cannot attend. Since 1987 all voting for Elected Trustees is done by ballot. Elected Trustees (9 total) serve on the Museum's Board. The trustees serve 3 year terms, 3 Trustess are elected each year.
Check our website Baltimore Streetcar Museum for a application and the various membership classes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The slide show was interesting. Apparently in the early years the museum was really a storage yard for the guys to rebuild the trolleys and run them over trackage through New Haven and surronding areas. It was until later when the connection was broken that the Shoreline developed into a museum with the Sprague Visitors Center and stationary exhibits.
The sheet cake for dessert was good, but by then it was 8:15PM and I had a two hour trip home ahead of me. Therefore, my buddy Al and I headed home. We took BMTman back with us as he had to work today and had a morning report. He had hitched a ride with RIPTA who stayed for the films. We didn't so I can't report on them.
Does anyone know what happened to UER 1575/RI Co. 1281? Was it scrapped at Branford along with 1511?
Formerly 60.
Do you know if 60 & 61 were renumbered and put into work service while still with the RI Co., or when UER was formed?
I have Part I: Equipment Roster. It isn't clear about the renumbering, although it does say most of the Jones single truck cars were taken out of service following the opening of my namesake tunnel in 1914. That would suggest 61 became a sand car under the RI Co., though all the photos of it as 1567 are in UER livery.
Steve Loitsch
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Correct, but what if? A fifth candidate was not nominated from the
floor, even as an absentee candidate. Was questioned, can absentee
candidate be nominated from floor? Chairman, said was not violation
of by-laws. So what if, there were only four candiadtes on the
ballot? Think about it?
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
8-)~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
8-( ~ Sparky
But, I duly note your saying "HIS" comments.
And that's all they were. I was there and have the
numbers and HIS assertive rhetoric to a hypothetical
statement that I have discord.
8-\ ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
You've seen the bumper stickers, "Shut up and drive!" Now, we need fanny stickers for Singapore Mass Rail Transit (SMRT) users. For a number of years, SMRT has been fully outfitted for wireless telephone use. Singaporians are polite mobile phone users; no "CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?" or "GUESS WHERE I AM?" They talk softly into their handsets.
But now, IM'ing has taken over. People from 8 to 80 are IM'ing as they walk through the system. They're so intent on pushing the right buttons, that they stop dead in their tracks (pun intended) in the middle of corridors and on platforms. And so people walking at New York speed keep bumping into others who are too distracted by their mobile phones.
The most interesting I've seen so far: Someone talking into one mobile phone using a hands-free ear/mouthpiece, and IM'ing on a second mobile phone at the same time! No indication if it was to the same person.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And the Second Avenue Subway is still unbuilt.
This is Singapore, where gum chewing gets you arrested.
It's John Ashcroft's dream.
And no, I do not have one, although I suspect that sooner or later it will be unavoidable.
From Newsday.com................
'Home Stretch' For LIRR Extension
By Joshua Robin
Staff Writer
November 13, 2003, 5:49 PM EST
The MTA is expected to receive $77 million in federal funds to bring the Long Island Rail Road to the East Side and study the feasibility of finally building a Second Avenue subway.
The money, approved late Wednesday by a bipartisan conference committee of senators and representatives, is part of an $88.9 billion bill expected to be signed later this year by President George W. Bush.
It marks a giant step in the long sought-after route change for the LIRR, which carries about 100,000 passengers a day to Penn Station.
"We're absolutely in the homestretch," Peter Kalikow, chairman of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, told commissioners at a meeting Thursday morning.
Still, the MTA must find an additional $5 billion to fund the project known as East Side Access, which is expected to be completed in 2011.
Sen. Charles Schumer said state officials were close to agreeing to match the $75 million in federal aid. He said he would try to ensure that both governments repeat their respective allocations annually, until the project is done.
"The bottom line is people now see how important rail transportation is in Manhattan," Schumer said.
The Second Avenue subway, which MTA officials hope to complete by 2020, is expected to cost nearly $17 billion, adjusted for inflation.
The Staten Island Ferry also is expected to receive $5 million in the bill to be used for a new boat and terminal rehabilitation.
Additionally, the High Line -- an abandoned rail line on the far West Side -- also received $500,000 to study how to turn the popular, weed-choked route into a pedestrian walkway.
In all, the New York metropolitan region received about $90 million in funds, Schumer's office said.
And why is the SAS still in the "feasibility" stage??? I thought there were plans drawn up already!!!
The reporting was inaccurate. The total estimated cost of East Side Access is $4.3 billion, of which $1.5 billion is in the current Capital Plan. The recent appropriation helps move things along.
Also, the project is well under way. The tunnel from Sunnyside Yard to 2nd Av is complete; the Tunnel Boring Machine is chewing its way toward Grand Central (I don't know exactly where it is today) and the tunnels under Sunnyside are being dug. All the tunnels, not including track, power., lights or signals, will be complete by 2005.
It's a big project, and funding is always an issue, but it doesn't help that the media screws up when obtaining information.
East Side Access EIS, contracts announced on MTA's website (including two 37 month contracts to complete both sides of the tunnels), the Capital Plan documents.
"The original completion date in 1999 was set at 2009. It has grown to 2012 and beyond."
For the project to open to the public and the trains to start rolling, yes. Not to finish digging the tunnels. That happens a lot sooner, contracts have been let, and is fully funded in the current Capital Plan.
If you know precisely what is going on at the Manhattan end of the tunnel as of today, say so, and where do you get your information?
I would think anyone who regulars this web site would know that 5-year old info on the MTA web site was useless the day it was posted.
"I would think anyone who regulars this web site would know that 5-year old info on the MTA web site was useless the day it was posted."
Do you look at the procurement section of the website? There was no mention at all of the $150 million in tunnel drilling contracts being withdrawn.
Unless you can provide a reference otherwise, I'll assume my information is good and you don't know what you're talking about.
But if your information is good, then I'll take back what I said.
The MTA Procurement section lists contracts put out to bid, but I failed to cross-reference them against financial reports available on the same website. I won't make that mistake again!
"Buildmorelines" did point out the cut and cover work was in progress in Sunnyside Yard. That's good news.
East Side Access EIS, contracts announced on MTA's website (including two 37 month contracts to complete both sides of the tunnels), the Capital Plan documents.
MTA Capital Plan documents also say that the Bleecker-Broadway-Lafayette connection will be completed in 2004, but no work has yet started.
I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that work has started just because the capital plan said it would.
As to whether or not the tunnels are completed -- I have yet to see any bellmouths appear where the signs along the LIRR ROW indicate that they are going to appear, but I also haven't specifically looked in the last two months.
CG
http://www.mta.info/mta/investor/pdf/investor_report_03.pdf
Re -- my comment on the status of the tunnels. I mis-read some of the earlier posts and thought that someone had said that segment of tunnel was complete. My error.
CG
There will be about 50 dealers. If you collect postcards, it can be an overwhelming experience seeing so many cards. When I'm in the mood, I find it relaxing to look through all the cards.
If anyone is looking for something special and can't make the show, drop me an e-mail describing what you're looking for and how much you want to spend. If I see the card, I'll buy it for you and you'll get it for what it costs me.
Indeed the 9 DOES look like a upside down 6! It comes before the 8 as you can see
Hmm, would that mean those 3 trains would terminate at Rockaway Ave (IIRC, the switch to the center track is just before or at the Junius St station), or run light from NewLots?
Thanks for the photo.
by the way, the manhattan bound track has no 10 car marker, only the queens bound has.
Also, before December (I think in October or November) a few select morning F trains were sent down 63 St. I remember seeing the R32s on the 6 Av Shuttle sitting on Track T2 mostly empty.
While that looks the case in this photo, there are 9 car markers out there in some stations in addition to a 6, and its just a 6 upside down.
Or how about the reverse-4 car marker on the S/B track at 205th street? Its an upside down 7 with a piece of electrical tape to complete the figure.
1. Renewing the fleet of subway trains; new trains to be lighter, stronger, faster (55 MPH) and use less power.
2. Computerized navigation system will tell control room where trains are.
3. Trains to run closer together; currently 2 city blocks apart 10 blocks in rush hour(?) will save $130 billion(??)
4. Mega-terminal to be built 140 feet below Grand Central; 1200 feet long.
Thanks for the info btw.
An $80 fare in 2104 will be reasonable, although at that point I think we should redefine our currency so that 1 old dollar=1 new cent. 100 old dollars=1 new dollar.
That the Italian currency didn't have cents is probably one of the reasons why they switched to the Euro.
I disagree. The very need for fractions, decimal or otherwise, shows that the currency was based incorrectly from the start.
The "mega-terminal" can only refer, I suppose, to the new East Side Access terminal at Grand Central.
I don't see why shorter headways would save $130 billion, but it might save a much smaller amount by not building new lines. There was definitely no mention of the SAS. Presumably the shorter headways would result from the experiment being conducted on the L train.
That was at least an hour right there.
Later on it becomes silly when they gush over the 63rd St. Tunnel and East Side Access as though it's some epic undertaking. The IND Phase 1 was epic, the Dual Contracts was epic, building the IRT from City Hall to 145th Street using Edwardian era technology at a time when parts of Manhattan was "more crowded than Calcutta" in just four years is truly epic. All this gushing over the 63rd St. Tunnel and East Side Access is just cheesy P.R. for the MTA.
So, in terms of technology you are absolutely correct. In terms of all of the sidebars, the story is quite different.
The subway program aired in Canada on Discovery Channel from 9 to 10 PM EST, under the heading "Extreme Engineering" and is to be repeated tomorrow at 4 PM.
Here in Canada we are allowed to watch U.S. channels only if approved by the Ministry of Canadian Heritage. I think they are supposed to foster Canadian content.
But I still don't see how the MTA intends to reduce headways and save a ton of money by doing so, or why peak-hour headway distances are so much longer than off-peak; this could be a case of bad reporting or I may have misunderstood.
Thanks to the new control and navigation system, 1000 more trains will run on the existing tracks, but closer together. This will save $132 billion [sic].
I can only suppose that the saving will result from not building new subway lines or tracks that would otherwise be needed.
The only new underground line mentioned was one serving Long Island with a "mega-terminal" 140 feet below Grand Central.
The White Elephant Line
or, since we are all familliar with the Princeton "Dinky" who not lovingly refer to the SJRR as...
"The Doggle"
As in Boondoggle.
Heard outside camden:
"mommy, what's that pimp doing to that [deleted]?"
Odd is northbound
Even is southbound
1/2 are express
3/4 are local
M is center express
Some time ago I was informed that this is wrong, and that the IRT is chained 1/2/3/4 from west to east. Only the shuttle is chained this way. I've noticed that both Flushing and the Lex are chained using the above method. So which is correct?
#3 West End Jeff
On a 4-track line, the signal numbers are 4 2 1 3, where 4 is
the s/b local. RTO says 1 2 3 4. In effect, the IRT signal
dept used the same scheme as the BMT and IND, except they reversed
n/b and s/b.
The last digit of an IRT signal number represents the track,
according, of course, to the signal way of doing things. The
remaining digits indicate distance in hundreds of feet. If
there are two signals on the same track at the same station
number, then 4 is added to the last digit, e.g. signal 1233
and 1237 are both on signal track 3, RTO track 4.
I have seen a case where three signalling elements are on the same track, in the same direction, within 100 feet of each other, and have the same first three digits on the signal number!
On the Southbound local track at the 138th St-Grand Concourse (Mott Haven) station on the 4 & 5 lines, you encounter these elements in the following order:
Signal 2704/J
Blind Stop 2704B/J
Home Signal 2704A/J X ??? (I forget the lever number. I have it written down at home, but I don't have it with me here @ QC.)
The home signal is really interesting becaues the number plate indicates it like this:
2704
A/J
-Stef
However, I have observed newer automatics with the old numbers.
-Stef
Navigation is easier as well.
Enjoy!
That's SMS :)
I have an R-33wf 9306 theme going.
Enjoy!
"W" exclude: Fred won't like it. :-)
"W" include: Difference to MTA (using drawn plan)
W to Kings Highway instead Whitehall (more on Sea Beach - but why?)
B/Q Brighton service switch -> X-switching at BB;
what @ nights?: Q as Brighton local? - "mixed" X & L service of one line confuse only
Drawn Plan: B on Brighton; in the text B on West End - ???
Vintage: only one word: CONFUSING. Three Brighton locals, service to
Bway, Nassau and 6 Av is nice - but not needed - or do you
want to have on all lines a everywhere-to-everywhere-without-transfer service?
Nights: Link doesn't work.
Then again, most of us would stand outdoors in our skivvies to get something like this.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oy.
We all know that there are only 468 but I would love to know where the other 22 are.
OK, there is 76th St but that leaves 21 unaccounted for (^_^)
Aside from mistakes they did have segments on
transit police
Arts for Transit and Music Under New York
renovations at Fulton Street
tips on what passengers could do to about terrorism
the idiot who does Subway Q&A program
the Transit Museum
some of the things you can buy at the Transit Gift shop
You may be right.
I sent them an email anyway.
The SIR as part of the subway - hmmph!!!! Unthinkable (for now anyway).
Several years down the road expect to hear this announcement on a A train near you.
VC Madman
The noise from the band, coupled with the shuttle trains arriving and departing made it impossible to hear the anchors.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's Hollywood.
'Nuff said.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Circle Line indeed has no service.
The Hammersmith & City Line is running between Hammersmith and Edgware Road.
Incidentally, the signal system's having problems at Whitechapel, so the District Line is in a bit of a mess too.
For once I actually support the Union in staging a strike. It really seems the bosses have been heavy handed in this case.
I mean, the Circle Line NEVER has any service.
Tell me about it. I've missed long distance trains because of the Circle line not working and having to go via Earl's Court.
It just goes to show you how poor management and union relations are in the UK. Firing someone because they called in sick and were spotted playing a game is silly. I guess this union official is not very popular and they are trying to get rid of him by any means possible.
The D train got lost in that article.
I didn't know that "200 average-size single-family homes" generated ANY energy. Has anyone talked to Con Ed about this? Could somebody get Newsday to write what they mean?
But out here the big thing is wind generation. North Dakota is one of the windiest places in the country, with good strong winds to keep those things turning as much as possible. We do lack transmission lines thought. Before we can see our surplus electricity to you guys, we gotta build more wires.
But while on this topic, I'll bet they could run all of the Washington subway on the hot air that comes off of capitol hill.
Of course you could light all of Albany with the friction caused when Bruno rubs Selkirk the wrong way! : )
Elias
Perhaps there should be categories: trains, track and signal, stations. (Others?)
I nominate Jersey Mike for best ROW (track and signal) photographer of this year. His photos are nicely composed accompanied by explanations which help make clear how the signals, switches and track circuits work. Those details were a mish-mash to me until I read through his posts (and others detailing concepts of electricity by Jeff and Phillip). They are a valluable addition to this site.
His train photos are nice too -
Other nominations?
Not if you still use Tripod to remote host your photos (aka it doesn't always work)
:)
:)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/v-pfriendly/story/136061p-121046c.html
Glad to see this group sees "something happening" as one of the reasons personnel hiding from the customers, and not just that we're unfriendly.
This group however mentions 1 day of training but doesn't look at the quality of training. I think any RTO employe that's gone through this raining will agree with me that its one big joke and a wasted day.
A C/R does not have time to give customer information while his train is stopped. He has a specific job to do, which is:
1) Open and Close the Doors SAFELY, and
2) Keep the DAMN train on time.
These two functions prohibit giving useful customer information.
Elias
However a C/R can do this:
If the train (s)he is operating on is needed to get where the customer is headed, tell them to get on and it will be explained further.
If another train is needed on the same platform, direct that customer to wait for that train, get on, and then ask the C/R.
This is what I did and never had any problems. A few stubborn customers, but that's when I'd close the doors and say "The ... train is what you need, wait for it across the platform."
Simple, no?
The fence keeps the geese about 15 feet away from the conductor's position, with signs that the conductor cannot answer their questions, but that they may use the white courtesey phones nearby.
: ) Elias
I never said they should. Just give a simple "Get on this train and I'll get back to you." or "Go over there." And if the customer won't accept that for an answer they get left behind.
I was watching a movie a few weeks ago (Royal Tennenbaums, maybe? I watched quite a few movies) where the setting was the early 1990s in New York City. In the opening of the movie, the camera focuses on an elevated subway going by... with the new MTA logo.
I started to complain, and my mom threw a pillow at me to shut me up... hmph! :o)
Only the railfans notice, not the world.
When Pelham 1-2-3 was remade, it was filmed in Toronto. (Partly for cost, partly because of NYCT's attitude toward filming - restrictions and $$$$) It stank, not because of TTC cars pretending they were New York, but the becasue the production was bad.
Look at Barry Levinson's Liberty Heights, which has several Baltimore streetcar scenes in it. The streetcars are Green (actually Alexander Blue) and cream in the film (which is set in 1955). In that time period, Baltimore's cars were yellow and grey. The Baltimore Streetcar Museum, which supplied the car used, did not want to repaint the restored car. Barry isn't 100% picky, so green it stayed. (We now have a second car of similar design that will be yellow & grey - we don't want the two cars painted alike.)
Supplemental filming was done with the mockup that was built for Avalon around Garrison Junior High and at Garrison & Libety Heights Avenues in northwest Baltimore. The mockup, which was in bad shape by the time Libery Heights was filmed, was scrapped by BSM after filming was complete.
I know, I just love to be a pain in the ass ;o)
Well, maybe that's why your mother threw the pillow at you!! :)
The movie was set during the Great Depression of the 1930's. Unless the scene in question was a flashback, the use of the 1911 car wouldn't be a blooper, except insofar as it involved a car from another state.
Yes, it was a flashback to 1901.
There was a location-based blooper in the Royal Tennenbaums. The wife said that she was doing archeological work on the "I-9 I-40" project. That sounds like a proposed interchange between (fictional) Interstate 9 and (real-life) Interstate 40. Were such an interchange to exist, under Interstate highway numbering provisions it would be located in Southern California. While the movie's setting was not explicitly said to be New York, from the backgrounds and architecture it certainly wasn't Southern California.
http://www.nitpickers.com/movies/titles/254166.html
The Lost Weekend (1945) : Third Avenue El
Brighton Beach Memoirs (1987 ?) Seneca Avenue M line station
A Stranger Among Us (1992) Forest Avenue, Knickerbocker Ave M line stations :
"I need a backup, corner of Forest and Putnam !"
- Melanie Griffith
Sweet and Lowdown (Woody Allen, don't know year) : Fresh Pond Junction (LIRR Montauk (LIC) Branch, Connecting Line, M line between Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Avenue stations.
"I started to complain, and my mom threw a pillow at me to shut me up... hmph! :o)" I have a similar reaction when my wife starts to nitpick too much. She would be a good continuity checker in the film industry !
> I started to complain, and my mom threw a pillow at me to shut me up... hmph!
I have the exact opposite problem with my father.
He was a Conductor in the late 70's early 80's, and I was a Conductor and now a Tower Operator. Whenever we see a movie with the subway if I don't catch it I get the "What was wrong with that picture?" If I don't catch it, I'll get a nice long explaination.
Happens with cars too, but those turn to real heated arguments. Those I win. Usually ends up with "What do you know Dad? Your first car was a Mustang." :)
Subway arguments however he always wins. Bah. I guess that's the benefit from a time where you had to know more to do the job.
I watched about 10 movies that week and can't remember for the life of me which one it was.
Is that the 22nd Av Line better known as the Ditmars Blvd Line, or the one from 119th St to 129th St or the one from Parsons Blvd to 202nd St?
To celebrate the November 18th DVD and VHS release of the Special Extended Edition of The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, NYC commuters are invited to ride the "Middle-earth Shuttle" (otherwise known as the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle). The Shuttle train's cars-replete with Middle-earth creatures, vines, moss and stones-will carry commuters between both stops from 11:30AM- 1:30PM. Brave travelers will have the opportunity to explore the Middle-earth- themed subway station, accompany Gollum back and forth, stand tall with 12-foot- high living Ents, and much more!
If this is true it sounds pretty damn cool. I am hoping Chapter 11 can get out there and fill another photo gallery.
And I know your camera will do it full justice!
Go get 'em, Mike.
:-) Andrew
Hmmmmmmm....it's gonna be close. I am out in the field on Tuesday, and I have a break from 10am to 12pm, but I'd have to just ride the shuttle once and then fly like the wind back to the field. I'll consider it, as it sounds interesting.
http://www.lordoftherings.net/index_105_fi_news.html
I might just get up there to see that. If nothing else, how the h*ll do they get 12' Ents into the Subway.
It might also be a good opportunity to have fun with my just-delivered new Canon digital camera!
John
Site
Check out the events section on the bottom of the page.
Isaac Bashevis Singer didn't write Lord of the Rings?
I am not a fan of LoTR in any way, so I wouldn't know that.
Do the column signs at Grand Central on the shuttle really say "42 Street"? Oh dear. Is that anything like "14 Street" on the L (as opposed to the four other stops along that same street)?
This is the 42nd street shuttle, the next stop is 42nd street! Stand Clear of the closing doors please!
I think it's time for the returning of double letters:
(ME) Metropolitain Av-Myrtle Av-Essex St-W 4 St-Penn Station-Queens Pl-
Jamaica Center :-)
Can deal with other framed sites.
What gives?
It's designed to work with Microsoft Internet Explorer, the world's most used browser.
Some #2 trains will go to Lenox Terminal. Details Here.
If the cars assigned to the 2 had the updated programs, I'm sure many NB crews would use the 3 program. But the cars assigned to the 2 don't have the 3 program.
Details Here.
110th st S/B reopens on Monday but 125th st/Manhattan Valley will be closed in the S/B direction for a few more days.
VC Madman
THAT would be something!
PS... Horseshu Curve.. it's a R-R ROW between NY and CHI (right?)
Having the South Ferry Loop and Station designated by the city as a landmark, so that the historic station and loop can be preserved.
Back in the early 1980s the Landmarks commission declared the original mosaics of the Contract 1 & 2 lines landmarks. The was after the destruction of Bowling Green (Hoyt St. too) and while they were preparing to work on the Lexington Wall St. station - notice how the mosaics peek around the glazed blue brick.
Original Downtown mosaics with bulged new white tiles around them:
Not the *only* way... The "repro" ones are generally "cleaner" (for example the white colored tiles in the mosaic are actually white)
If the new station does end a bit further north (I sort of remember seeing a version of that plan) then it is possible that the old station could be used as a branch of the transit museum!!
With the MTA's plans of a new South Ferry Terminal (you can find it somewhere in the archives or the MTA's website), the old terminal could serve as a loop track of sorts.
Is the South Ferry Outer Loop Revenue Trackage?
LOL!
Another C train sat on the express track waiting to enter, eventually did with 3-4 people on it (presumably TA employees) and then switched to the local track and ran in service.
Anyone know what happened?
The IND station will always be "Broadway-East New York" to me.
That was a limited time only engagement. A lot of people saw them while they were running on the #3. You can never go wrong by searching the archives.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
This message belongs to an email to Sallamallah.
BTW: How are you doing? I sent you an email.
If not, then extend the 7 to where it needs to go, and re-open the LIRR whitestone line, but to Fort Totten via the Whitestone Expressway and CIP(above it). Either way, I thinking northeast queens deserves rail service.
IINM, that line and its ROW is no longer extant.
Elias
You are NM; it's long gone.
Yes it will. The ROW is "long gone"
Houses, roads, buildings and parks now sit where the ROW once was.
An ROW is a "Right of Way".
In the Case of the Rockaway, the ROW exists, though (usable) tracks do not.
In the case of the LIRR Central line, the ROW exists, but is now owned by LILCO (or whatever they are called now) and are a route for power lines.
In the case of the Whitestone Branch.... It is Gone... Nada... Zippo.
Elias
Do those who liked the idea of using the Whitestone line for subway service understand that it was mostly a single track, at-grade route which would have been unsuitable for subway service without massive rebuilding? Was it even electrified? I have only seen pictures of steam service on it.
I'd run it north along College Point Blvd. to 14th Ave, then east along 14th to 154th (approx. the old LIRR Whitestone route).
Don't know if you could put a subway there though...it's marshy and landfill-y.
www.forgotten-ny.com
To instal new service now, the expressways make an attractive ROW with minimal NIMBYs. Additionally, newer residential and commercial construction mightated to the places where the expressways are.
Elias
However, sometimes you get the best of both: the Van Wyck Expressway is both a great ROW where you can keep trains away from people's homes and at the same time, it is a central route through the area. That made it ideal for AirTrain.
Subway service straight down the Van Wyck with local stations would have been nice too, but would have required either using a Queens Blvd. local train (extend the R, the V or the G?), since there is no room for an additional route on the express track and the E and F head east, or building an entirely new line through Queens. :ots of $$$.
The Grand Central would seem to be a good place to put new rail service, with stops in places people want to go.
In Los Angeles, the San Diego Freeway is yet another road that could support a train. Major high-density stops would include Westwood, the big mall at Ventura/Sepulveda, LAX. Once upon a time there was a major auto plant (GM?) in the northern San Fernando Valley that could have been a stop.
Have $$$, can dream?
I think you meant the I-105 freeway, where the Green Line runs for much of its length (the I-105 also is known as the Century Freeway, it runs east-west from LAX to Norwalk). There is a I-110 freeway, but that is the Harbor Freeway, which runs north-south from downtown L. A. to San Pedro. It doesn't have a light-rail line on it, but it does have a busway (Harbor Transitway) for much of its length.
Funny you should mention the 101 freeway, many years ago, the Pacific Electric Red Car line out to the San Fernando Valley ran for a few miles in the median of what would become the Hollywood Freeway (US 101). This was between Universal City and the Hollywood Bowl. Alas, that line was converted to bus in the mid-50s and today's Red Line runs underground in a different route nearby.
That's the Flushing Airport and was shut down during the 70's when I believe an airplane had crashed at a nearby building. There are people keeping a close eye on the area and some people are bent on making sure no comercial development (like on 20th Avenue) arises due to the extreme trafficv situation there.
Many don't. Many do. Naturally all the loudmouths are on the "anti" side.
They usually are ...
Nah, Ron never shows any bias.
The notion of a NYC subway running at grade with street crossings is not that far fetched. As everyone knows the Canarsie Line had a grade crossing at E 105th Street Station until about 30 years ago. And today in Chicago, CTA el trains on the Ravenswood and Douglas Park Lines operate some mileage at the outer ends at grade with numerous street crossings protected by railroad-style crossing gates, red lights, and bells.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW, I disagree with the 7 extension east to Whitestone/Bayside. More money should be spent extending it to the West Side and Brooklyn.
If the ROW still existed, a subway extension would be politically impossible. I know people in Whitestone, and they value their distance from major subway routes keeping out the "riff-raff" (minorities).
#3 West End Jeff
The photos can be viewed at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-29-03_PAUL_TO_PENN_VIA_VESTABULE/
Here are some intro pics:
This is the BELL flyover north of Wilmington. It's original purpose was to let passenger trains on the outer tracks flyover freight trains heading to Edgemore Yard on the inner tracks.
Here is the Y track connection at LANDLITH interlocking. This is how trains access the Wilmington electric shoppes. Landlith is still a pneumatic interlocking.
This is the new interlocking they built for the A track extension between Newark and here. It lets SEPTA trains serve Newark and Churchpersons Crossing w/o interfereing w/ Amtrak trains. Both track 1 and track A have recently received concrete ties. Note the new tubular gantry sporting two position light signals.
Here is famous SEPTA Silverliner #218 still displaying its heritage from the LVANIA Railroad.
Those signals are Safetran made position lights, not US&S and due to their relitivly young age they have nice brightness (although they might be LED)
FWIW, I much prefer to view your photos in the messages you post, since you include a lot of explanatory information. I know you use long file names in the directories on your web site, but the amount of information just isnt the same.
You certainly win my nomination for General Around New York Rail Shots for 2003!
John
I was hoping ppl would run through the photos on the server than ask questions as necessary.
Thanks!
The "line up" is a route through an interlocking plant.
It may be as simple as one switch, or it may be a more complicated plant, such as is found at Harold Interlocking.
At some locations, the T/O may punch a button to align the switch himself, sometimes that button only tells the tower who he is, and the tower must make the alignments especially at the more complicated interlockings such as DeKalb Avenue. In other locations there is no button, and the operator must rely on the tower giving him the correct alignment.
It is always the responsibility of the T/O to accept only the correct alignment. All the more so, since subway trains are not permitted to back up. (You may have read the thread about an LIRR train backing up.)
Once a subway train accepts or passes an incorect line up, the train MUST follow that route. Sometimes the tower may be able to fix things by routing the train back to the correct track further up the line (as in a local that accepted a move to the express track.) But if your Queens Train is now on the track for the Bronx, you are SOL. In either case you will have to pee in a cup.
Elias
Towers that are on automatic like 50th St Tower on the B/D/F/V at 47-50 Rock could have a sign "Tower on Automatic, What You Punch Is What You Get".
Very rare on the IND that there would be four choices from one signal, They used Y/Y/Y for second diverging. (as well as "shortened control line" like Toronto's auto-call-on)
Nope. That practice was/is not condoned by the rule book [which is not to say it doesn't happen]. If the towerman did this and it routed me from the express to local and I could get back to my regular route later without missing any stops, then I would accept this "informal" means of communication. But if the route displayed was more "unusual" than that (for example, local to express or East Side to West Side)in the "old pre radio days" the motorman had to hoof it to a telephone and call the Desk Trainmaster for instructions. Dropping the ball and redisplaying a "wrong" line-up was not good enough.
You mean you almost got sent up the A line instead once?
Actually the true terminology should be: "Partner, do you have the PROPER line up?" as opposed to what alot of C/Rs ask: "Do you have the line up?".
Yeah... you *always* have a line up.... just that a *wrong* line up will send you to 76th Street via the pee pee cup.
Elias
...
Also there are security cameras embedded in the R142/143's. This has been confirmed by personal sources in management as well as people on this board. I have a hunch where they are, but it would just be speculation and I don't want to reveal it if it's correct, less duct-taping ensue...
Is this true? I would think the cameras would be behind the "Next Stop" indicator.
--Julian
This is what I live for...
I can't make it, but I've done the walk before, and it is loads of fun! Details below:
In conjunction with the exhibit, there will be a walk through the Bergen Arches
on Sunday, November 16, 2003. Meet Leon Yost and Dan Levin at the Grove Street
PATH Station at 9am sharp. Wear layered clothing and waterproof shoes, and bring
a water bottle.
www.jclandmarks.org
What is the cause of this abnormal brain development? I don't know.
avid
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
NOTE this is just an idea, not saying that this exact idea should be done because it has some problems with it.
(2) Dyre Avenue-Flatbush Avenue rush hours
(2) Dyre Avenue-South Ferry all other times except Late Nights
(2) Dyre Avenue- E 180 Street nights(1-5am)
(3) 148-New Lots Avenue except nights(1-5am)
(3) Woodlawn-New Lots Avenue (via new connection from 135th Street[or 145th Street] to 149 Street GC-upper level) nights, shuttle bus would run
(4) Woodlawn-Utica Avenue all times except nights(1-5am)
(5) E 241 Street-Flatbush Avenue 24/7(this would give WPR all day 5 service, and increased express service to Gun Hill Road(possibly 241 Street itself)
Don't take this too seriously, since this idea has some problems in it, however it takes care of the <5> vs (5) problem. This way (5) and <5> would run to the same terminal, of course all 5s could be express below E 180 St while <5> will be express up to Gun Hill(or 241). The original pattern would reduce express service frequency during rush hours on WPR(<5> express (5) local)
WPR would gain all day Lexington service, however Jerome would lose night Lexington service.
Instead of taking the (4) to the (2) at night, riders would be taking the (3) to the (5) at night.
Brooklyn would have a local/express balance switch instead of 2 locals and one express off peak(2/3 and 4), they would have 2 expresses and 1 local off peak(3, and 4/5)
There would be more switching between express and local in Brooklyn to allow the 5 to run to Flatbush (unless 3 went to Flatbush and 5 went to New Lots)
Bronx would have more express service(depending upon how it is worked)
>(3) 148-New Lots Avenue except nights(1-5am)
>(3) Woodlawn-New Lots Avenue (...) nights, shuttle bus would run
The connection only for a night service ???
Little bit expensive for a 4/7 service.
What do you want with the shuttle bus?
This is one of the things that the connection would allow, the connection that I proposed would mainly be for rush hours and G.O.s(another thread)
---
What do you want with the shuttle bus?
---
145 and 148 wouldn't have 3 service at night
Then post it, reading you service list makes me thinking, that this is
all of your idea.
>145 and 148 wouldn't have 3 service at night
Currently passengers haves to use to M7 or M102 during nights.
This can continue - no shuttle needed.
What would be much better would be changes in bklyn trackage. At Utica/Sutter Avs., change the track alignment. South (east) of the portal, connect the Center track to the Present S/B (3) track. This would be relatively easy. Looking at the track map, if such a connection were made 4 trains would use the switch to get to the center track, and then continue onward, 3 trains would use the S/B track until it passed the first switch connecting to the center track, and then it would reverse onto the LL.
Headed N/B, You'll need to make structural changes to the tunnel, but then just connect the N/B (3) track to the unused LL track before the Center track from the UL connects. Then we can run traditional service.
That change would not be costly. But additionally, I'd propose rebuilding the Rogers Junction. After that, we could propose extending the Subway down Nostrand Av further than it presently reaches.
Then, we could have the following service pattern:
(2) To Flatbush, all times
(3) To Utica Av, all times except nights
(4) To New Lots, via exp, except nights
(5) To Flatbush, weekdays*
This would be a better alignment than presently exists, and would allow for more service.
*- the 5 running weekdays is dependent on an extension of the Nostrand Line further south.
Notice the flexiblity that this connector would allow, no more would the 2/5 have to be screwed because the 3/4 need their dedicated service, all(except Lenox 3) would be interchangeable, helping many riders and TA employees. This shouldn't be THAT expensive for a short tunnel and a track connection. Something that should have been done along time ago.
The 2/5 are hardly 'screwed' by the 3/4. I don't get what you're saying.
According to a T/O who goes by Lexman on Rider Diaries
---------
Bedford Park, on the 7th Avenue line the 3 is the priority line, while on the Lex, the 4 is the priority. The reasons for this are twofold (1)Both of those lines are dedicated lines(i.e. they cannot be sent via the other corridor.) You can route a 5 via 7th Av. if necessary, or you can route a 2 via Lex if necessary. The 3 and 4 CANNOT be rerouted like that. Also, in Brooklyn, the 3 and the 4 serve the UticaAv./New Lots corridor, which has more than three times the ridership of the Flatbush corridor. That is why the 2 and 5 lines are the "stepchildren" of the IRT.
----------
This is not your main argument, but according to the Subway & Bus Ridership Report, the New Lots line segment had 21 million riders and the Flatbush line segment had 17 million riders in 2002.
(2) to Utica; at nights to New Lots
(3) to Flatbush; at nights no service
(4) to BB;rush-hour and nights to Flatbush
(5) to New Lots; at nights Bronx only
Since i don't like mixed local and express service (like late night A -
not diamond services!!!)[i think these service changes are the most
confusing!], the (4) runs on the express at nights, so
Eastern Pkway, GAP and Bergen only have a 3 TPH service. [ :-( ]
The #3 and #4 trains in Brooklyn are an exception to this rule, in that the longer-distance #3 train is local and the shorter-distance #4 train is express. Your proposed track realignments would allow this unusual situation to be corrected.
In my opinion the #3 should run local in Brooklyn and terminate at Utica, while the #4 should run express to Utica and continue to New Lots. I think that is what you are proposing, among other improvements.
#3 West End Jeff
Back in the '80s I was building an HO scale layout in my barn (never completed; what had been finished was destroyed when the barn was damaged during Hurricane Fran in 1996) and had plans for extending it outdoors on an elevated structure (not prototypical, just track on cork roadbed attached to strips of pegboard supported by PVC pipe that carried the wiring), but other than a small experimental section I never pursued that. Nowadays with DCC control it might be more practical, albeit still somewhat on the silly side, but at the time it was definitely a ridiculous idea. And can you imagine keeping the track clean? That's an issue with any outdoor model railroad where the current flows through the rails, of course, but G scale is a lot easier than the smaller scales.
Now the REAL outdoor models are those built by the Live Steam folks - varying scales, but the most popular seems to be 1:8 or thereabouts. Much fun... and way more money than I can afford. Besides, at Branford I get to play with 1:1 scale, and it's powered by nice clean electricity to boot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
My questions:
Was there any significant service disruption on the #7 yesterday morning?
Do expresses now skip HP Ave or was this train simply given permission to skip HP Ave because of the severe crowding?
The price you pay for living on a line with trains every three minutes. Some of them have to get out of the way sometimes.
"The Interborough used 5-car trains for local service, each with three motor cars and two trailer cars, on which neither truck suspended motors. Express service used 8-car trains, with five motor cars and three trailers. "
See http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irthaer/electrical04.html
The IRT book on this site says:
"The platforms are from 200 to 350 feet in length, and about 16 feet in width, narrowing at the ends, while the center space is larger or smaller, according to local conditions."
See http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irtbook/ch1.html
This information applies to the original IRT route.
I suppose the local platforms were 200 feet long and the expresses were 350 feet long. Seeing as each car was (and still is) 51 feet long, the stations were too short for the trains!
I have not been able to find out when 10-car trains were introduced.
Not exactly...
The cars had vestibule doors at each end, and a center door. The doors at each end of the train were cut out and did not open. So a train could overhang a station by about 20' at each end.
Elias
Thanks for the explanation, Elias. So 5-car local trains fitted into 200 ft platforms and 8-car express trains fitted into 350 ft platforms. If you lop 40 feet off each train, platforms are still a few feet short, but I think their lengths are only approximate.
Quite late. The major platform lengthening was after World War II and was still going on on the Lex Local stations in the '50s.
But you should be aware that 10-car trains preceded 10 car platforms at many, if not most, stations--even on express lines. Only 5 cars could open at those stations. This continued on the Lex locals until c.1960, IIRC. South Ferry is the last remnant of this practice. This (not opening all cars) was only done in the rarest cases on the BMT, and never on the IND, AFAIK.
Thanks Paul. That's very interesting and it pretty well completes the answer to the original question.
In the light of your information, the idea of 15-car trains on the Lexington line does not seem so absurd after all!
"Traffic.
Almost ever since the elevated lines were first put into operation, it has been notorious that the congestion and crowding of the transportation lines of New York has been unequaled on any other transportation system in the world. The opening of the present subway in 1904, although it had then a capacity of 400,000 passengers per day, afforded little relief. By the lengthening of the express platforms to accommodate 10 instead of eight cars, the installation of the most modern and approved types of automatic block signals, brakes, car [page 669] and air-line couplings, center side doors, etc., its capacity was increased so that 1,250,000 passengers can be and have been handled in 24 hours, but the crowding during the rush hours is as bad as ever on all lines. "
See http://www.nycsubway.org/dual/en_ch1.html
Therefore the express platforms were extended from 8-car to 10-car trains some time between 1904 and 1914.
-- Ed Sachs
R-32.
Are the GE R32s any different mechanically than the rest of the R32 fleet? Assuming Pitkin would be more familiar with that type of equipment, I'm thinking the GEs have a better chance of being based out of Pitkin than at Jamaica, but we'll see what happens when February 2004 rolls around.
One could assume that the parts for some of the R32GE are slightly different than those for R32 Phase I/II.
When the GE R32s were first rebuilt, they had A/C, what happened to them over the years?
R-32.
As I remember it, there was some sort of problem with the A/C compressor cradles. Apparently engineering has gotten it sorted out and they're back in the saddle, A/C and all.
wayne
R-32.
The air conditioning was problematic on the 10 R-32GEs, and the cars were sidelined in the summers for several years (though I understand they worked as refuse collectors). The air conditioning was recently replaced and the cars now run year-round.
David
My bad. You're right. I meant they operated with the R38's 'cuz they are more similar.
I'd kill for an R-32GE as the lead motor of a Rock Park-bound A train next weekend (no service to Far Rock due to a GO).
There are 3 types of R32s: GE R32s, Phase I R32s and Phase II R32s
The GE R32s have interiors virtually identical to R38s. The exterior #1 ends of the cars carry remnants of the bulkhead rollsigns and the marker lights. There are only 10 of them. They are 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, 3934 thru 3937.
The best way to tell the difference between a Phase I and Phase II R32s are the sound of the breaks. If the breaks sound like the rest of the rebuilt equipment or equipment made in the '80s, those are Phase I R32s. If the breaks sound like loud fireworks, then those are Phase II R32s. Also, in MOST, but not all cases, Phase I R32s' side rollsigns have smaller font size than the Phase II R32s. In fact, the Phase II R32's font size is similar to the R38s as well as the GER32s.
Other than the car numbers that I indicated, there is no way to tell a Phase I or Phase II by numbers unless you just memorize the number. When rebuilding of the R32s were taking place, the cars were picked by random.
Example: 3930-1 are Phase IIs; 3932-3 are Phase Is; 3934-5 are GEs
I'm sure there are other ways that I have not covered, but this is the way that I know.
Hope this helps.
In most cases, but not all, on the "E", the cars with the smaller fonts are Phase I, the cars with the larger fonts are Phase II. This is the "E" train only.
As far as the "A" and "C" are concerned, the font size can be large or small, they are still Phase I or GE.
Bill "Newkirk"
How you doing Bill?
There is a plain-as-day easy way to tell the difference once aboard. Look at the door cut-out keyhole at the end of each seat row. If it's in a plastic circle, Phase I. Metal square, phase II. I have heard that the digital sign selector device is different as well, but obviously I haven't had the opportunity to prove that.
The only problem is that someone else with inside information made a conflicting post right around the same time.
In other words: there are various retirement plans being considered. Even at the time the R-160 order was placed, two were being strongly considered.
The only retirement plan that really counts is the one that's in effect as the old cars are actually taken out of service. We'll see what actually happens then. No sense in relying on a year-old tentative plan.
I don't know that. Lots of other subtalker don't know that. Passengers don't know that.
Maintenance folks don't like the cars, it's true. But they run, and I for one always preferred an R44 ride to a Redbird ride. It was always more comfortable.
David
Second, the MTA did say at one point (it was either when the cars were going out for bid or when the award was announced -- I don't remember which) that 10 R-32s were among those to be replaced by the base 660-car order of R-160s. It didn't take much to figure out that those were the GE cars, since those cars didn't have working air conditioning at the time. However, since that time, the air conditioning has been replaced and the cars run year-round, so it is possible that the thinking on that issue has changed.
David
The LIRR is also supposed to start a major project at Mineola concerning the high water table and frequent flooding that often occurs there.
Uh-oh ! Full width cabs ? Kiss those railfan windows goodbye.
"Basically the M-3s will be like the M-7s once all is said and done."
Hmmm.....does that mean ADA restrooms ? My friend who's a LIRR engineer said there was a pair of M-3's inside Hillside Facility with the interiors totally stripped.
"He also said that sometime in the future,the rest of the mainline (from Hicksville to Queens Village)will be getting concrete ties."
Are you sure about that ? This stretch of trackage between Hicksville and Floral Park is supposed to be triple tracked. That's the LIRR's next big project.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
My question is where is the third track going to be built from Floral park down to New Hyde Park,It will be awfully close to those homes there.
My goof, thinking about the time years ago when WILLIS hobbies was on Mineola Blvd.
"My question is where is the third track going to be built from Floral park down to New Hyde Park,It will be awfully close to those homes there."
You got me there !
Bill "Newkirk"
They'll be the last to go. They already received an air brake overhaul. The M-1's going to Mexico didn't have the air brake overhaul.
Bill "Newkirk"
If LIRR had funneled the money spent on the Ronk electrification and the Dual Mode diesel from Sooper Steal into 25kv cat and dual-source rolling stock then they'd have the Port Jeff, Oyster Bay, and Greenport lines all electrified. Gievn that MN was getting the M4s and M6s into the 1980s, it's not unforseeable for some of them to have been built for the LIRR with overrunning shoes, 25kv AC-600vdc dual mode operation in mind. Also, I'm willing to bet that any new electric dual mode would be a heck of a lot less flamable than the DM30ACs have proven to be.
Imagine a LIRR ALP46 on the NYP-Greenport express!
Bill "Newkirk"
Can't wait to see what the finished product will look like.
The 1970s renovation of DeKalb was pretty bad, but all that they had at the time. Dismal brown tiles, oddly cut along the platform ends. Immediately after the tiles were done they added the pored-on orange strips to warn of the platform edge, but within months they started peeling off. They replaced tiles on the wall with BMT style patterns that were slightly smaller and grayer than the original. And this was tacked on to the ugly changes from the 1950s of refrigerator-style tiles along the walls.
I think Dekalb, along with Court St, were the only 2 stations in the system with bank branches.
I'm happy they finally got that stairway reopened. It's funny that many Brooklyn Tech students still crossed Flatbush Avenue anyway because they weren't aware that the stairs can be used.
The other side was just as wacky, as the "M" had some of its old light blue color poking through.
Another thing, the farecontrol area appears to be a little bit wider.
http://64.226.170.141/cgi-bin/Interchange.pl?read=32328
It's a post on the Interchange message board at www.rypn.org saying that a car from the NYW&B is still around, and is stored on a railroad in Peru! Does anyone know anything about this car? Just curious... thanks!
Frank Hicks
Saturday, December 6 and Sunday, December 7 will be a "Farewell
Trip with the RedBirds" on the IRT Lines except the Flushing Line.
The special train of cars not being reefed, will depart Track 1,
Grand Central Shuttle at 10:30 AM both days. Now officially
retired, these are the Bye Bye Birdie Trip[s].All East & West Side
Division A line will be covered that weekend. As usual, Subdivsion C
will offer diverseness each day as G.O.s permit.
Saturday, December 27 and Sunday, December 28 the historic Arnines
[R-1\R-4s\R7-A] will be operating on the B division. It will be
a four car consists with cars #100, #401, #484 & #1575. Departing
center platform, Columbus Circle [A & D] at 10:30 AM both days.
Planned at this time are a jaunt to the Rockaways and if signal
construction permits, the 14th Street Subway from Broadway Junction
to 8th Avenue. If the 14th Street line is available, it may be the
last trip of any senior equipment on this line. Also any other
obscure IND\BMT locations not previously ridden in 2003 will be
visited.
The formal mailing will be just after Thanksgiving, to all on the
MOD, BERA & ERA mailing lists. Also these two excursion are being
sanctioned by the Transit Museum and their members will also receive
the mailing.
Join them in supporting the March of Dimes. Fares will be $40 per trip for adults and $20 per child
under 13 years of age. Day of trip tickets will be the same, if available.
Tickets are available by mail from:
NYCT Subdivision C - M.O.D. Trips
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
The Bronx, NY 10461
Please make all checks or money orders payable to the March of Dimes.
For additional information, you may call 1-347-643-4310.
As usual Thank You for your patronage and support.
8-) ~ Sparky
I'll try to make at least one of those pending the conclusion of my semester. Excellent news!
Time will tell...
I also might make it on the 6th but that is a question mark. Damm, I guess I will have to buy a THIRD cell phone battery just to ensure that I can use my camera phone all the time.
8-) Sparky
Chris, to use the "Museum" IRT cars, would be excessively time
consuming, as the "Transit Museum" is reopened and you can not
leave a gap on the display tracks.
8-) ~ Sparky
One set of D's is easier to drill for 2 IND cars then 4 IRT cars
in and out. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
However, R-7A #1575 could use a bit of an exterior cleaning, especially on its ogee roof, and its side number plate next to "Cab No. 1" has a bit of dinged chip in its lower left corner. Also, there are six missing glass lenses throughout within the car's middle fluorescent lighting strips, that have been replaced with some heavy looking coverups. As for R-4 car #484, it still looks fantastic and so cool to sit in, even with its glowing lime green interior and subdued PCC-type interior lighting.
-William A. Padron
["AA/8th Ave., "Wash. Hts.-168th St."]
I noticed that too. Wonder if there are any remaining lenses in any of the work motor R-12/14's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They might have some of those lenses in stock.
wayne
Transit Observer
'The Zapper'
Nellie V.
Joe Saitta
Should we allow BMTman Along?
8-) ~ Sparky
The BMTman doing HO-Ho-Ho. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Koi
I'm in for the trip...
-Stef
8-) Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Also, how many lines is this piece of equipment cut off from using now?
And where's that full east coast high-speed rail when I need it? Or at least a realiable Amtrak.
8-)~ Sparky
And that @!#$ blue thing east of the Canarsie line!
I have eliminated 76th Street off the map, but that particular section of track - along with City Hall BMT Lower Level - are two "obscure locations" that haven't been visited by the MOD trains in 2003.
December 6\7: "Join us as we visit the Woodlawn, Dyre Avenue,
Broadway. Pelham Bay, Lenox and Brooklyn Lines. A few surprise
locations are planned as well."
Both trips depart the Grand Central Shuttle platfrom at 10:30 AM
and over the two days will cover as much of the IRT division as
possible.
December 27\28: "Plans currently are to operate in the Rockaways,
the 14th Street Line, Astoria, 95th Street and on Coney Island bound
lines of the BMT."
The special train will boards passengers at 59th Street/Columbus Circle
Middle Platform of the A\D line at 10:30 both days.
8-) ~ Sparky
Katy bar the doors!!!
CPW, Queens, Fulton St., Broadway-Brooklyn, Brighton, you name it.
I will definitely be on one of the Dec 27/28th ones, and there is a small chance of the December 6th/7th ones.
--Mark
Jeremy
8-) ~ Sparky
For June trips, know of some whose checks were returned
no such address. Postal employee on RDO. didn't know
you deliver mail to the "Subway Yard". >>GG<<
8-)~ Sparky
For June trips, know of some whose checks were returned
no such address. Postal employee on RDO didn't know
you deliver mail to the "Subway Yard". >>GG<<
8-)~ Sparky
All previous trips I've taken have been on Sundays when the pressure of work the next day always rears its ugly head. Maybe I can FINISH this trip.
Thanks for the info, Sparky!
CORRECT TELEPHONE NUMBER IS: 1-347-643-5310.
Thanks, 8-) ~ Sparky
Do you know how to read?
< / arrogant mode off >
Chuck Greene
I mailed in my check and requests for both the 12/27 & 12/28 IND trips on Monday.
Hope to see you guys there. Just look for the tall Asian guy with a nametag that looks like this...
What are the chances of covering the 242-VCP route on the SUNDAY trip???
;) ;) :)
The upper WPR line is closed that weekend, BTW.
No railfan windows, of course. They last ran this GO in March or April, IIRC, mere days after the last set of R-33's was pulled off the 5.
Have I ever been on such a G.O. with you?
LOL....
I*SO*AWTP.
IIRC, this is the 3rd-some time the fella asks the same Q to a MOD posting
(which has the answer within it).
:s
thanks
Chuck
www.forgotten-ny.com
We will keep you posted.
Elias
8-) ~ Sparky
If your serious about doing one of the buses, contact me privately
and I'll put you in touch with someone working on that project. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=nycsubway.org
...finds it at #25, 203 on 11/14/03, an imnpressive showing given that there are millions of sites in the ranking.
You-know-who is at #97,001.
http://www.big-boards.com/index.php?page=all
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've also created a new album called Rollsigns.
The URL address is as follows:
photos.transitgallery.com/far-rockaway-a-train
I think if you have Netscape, you may have a problem viewing the pictures. Hopefully that will not be the case.
Here are some sample pictures, enjoy:
The URL address is as follows:
photos.transitgallery.com/far-rockaway-a-train-albums
photos.transitgallery.com/Far-Rockaway-A-Train-Albums
It seems that what you saw was the provision for a two or three track extension of the Livonia Avenue Line via Linwood Street to Jamaica Bay and thence east to the City Line. This route had a very low priority and never received a construction number.
Source: Abandoned & Unused Tracks and Tunnels of the IRT by David Rogoff, April 1964.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
--Z--
The default listing style is compressed and Day.
This system will show the following:
All non-response (new thread) posts made within the last 24 hours.
All response posts that have been posted within the last 24 hours BUT are responses to posts made earlier than that. All responses to posts made in the last 24 hours will not be listed on the index.
By selecting Change Display Style etc, one can change the period to be longer or shorter than a day, or change the display style to something other than compressed, in which case all messages posted within whatever period you've selected will be listed.
I use By Threads, Reversed and Two Days.
--Z--
Some new pics from the Transit Museum, Croton-Harmon Open House, and the Bronx IRT. Go Now!
A cheaper alternative to the South Ferry Terminal
"Have you considered the possibility of simply replacing the single short curved platform at South Ferry by a single long straight platform? I believe that there is a long enough, straight enough, stretch of the southbound track, north of the present station, to make that possible."
From what I just saw on Channel 4 News, there were no LIRR service either.
Cause no one tells us either!
Now I begin to realize my $2 went nowhere in MTA but to the chairman's limo
First, it's spelled "Steinway," like the piano company. Second, Transit was ordered - probably by the FDNY or the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management - to shut down everything that runs through the area.
[According to the announcement it was a gas leak just north of Queens Plaza,I thought to Myself hey wait a minute we are way north of Queens Plaza,Why Shut us down at Stineway....]
An order to shut down everything means that they have to shut down everything. No exceptions.
[...Never the less they kicked us off the train,Gave us Block Tickets and said Your on your own,No Shuttle Bus,No Nothing!]
Oh, like somebody knew in advance that the gas main was scheduled to leak.
When there's construction that shuts down an entire section, Transit knows far enough in advance to schedule buses to fill in the gap. However, emergencies such as gas main leaks can't be scheduled in advance.
[Not even the N train at Broadway.So like other Po'ed riders(I can't even afford a cab),I walked in the Cold and Winds down Broadway and to 74th Street,And that was a walk.Same thing Shut Down,Not even the 7 train as they said.]
Again, an order to shut down everything means that they have to shut down everything.
--Z--
Whew! My head is spinning...I feel as if I'm in a Simpsons episode where Homer licks a frog or something and is having visions.
Do you know how far the gas had traveled before the leak was detected? I don't. Better safe than sorry.
[Thats too extreame,and then having no back-up plan.]
Back up plan? Should there be buses at every station at all times just in case? That would be a complete waste. (Transit tried something similar a few years ago with "As-Assigned" runs. The result was senior drivers picking those runs and dispatchers informally agreeing to never use them.)
Figure out what can't be operated
Figure out if shuttle buses can provide service in the affected answer
Determine if block tickets need to be issued
Figure out where drivers/buses can be obtained from
Figure out if those drivers/buses can make it to that area within a reasonable amout of time
Figure out which supervisors to send to each station to manage crowds and provide information
Once all the above is done and if all conditions are satisfied, service can begin. But by then, there may be no need.
Prepared for emergencies does not mean a super detailed plan, you can only really create a framework.
Drop to the floor.
Curl into a ball.
Kiss your butt goodbye!
Oh, come on! So a train rumbles by, and the arcing from the third rail causes the gas main to go KABOOM! Isn't that a quick easy way to dig an access shaft?
:0)
2. Kudos to Gotham Bus Co. I couldn't have said it better, myself.
3. JBar387: I hope being able to vent on this board made you feel better. However, I also hope you register your complaint DIRECTLY to MTA New York City Transit. In addition, what exactly would you expect the MTA to do about an ordered shutdown, especially at 2 AM?
VC Madman
Wasn't she auditioning for a food-service job in the state slammer?
Flashlight with plenty of batteries
Bullhorn
Subway Map
Bus maps for each borough
Every bus line schedule (bring a book)
The book you have to bring is to read while you sit and wait if you are stuck in a tunnel.
High Heels (see how far you can walk while wearing them)
A police office, a Paramedic and a fire fighter (all in uniform) as your security detail.
Mace or Pepper Spray to fend off the next mugger while you walk home at 3 AM
An AK-47 Assault Rifle if the Mace or Pepper Spray doesn't work (only applies if you are a registered Republican. If you are a Democrat, use a NYPD issued 9 mm Glock pistol)
A straitjacket for the officer or Paramedic (see above) to put on you when you start yelling and/or cursing at any NYCT employee while in the performance of his/her duties.
Anyone else want to add to this list?
What you see in your own mirror.
I don't think Mike Bloomberg would allow that
Meaning you didn't say it yourself.
So dont pat yourself on your back!
It was for your own safety, If the gas main was to explode and you was to be on that train, you'll probably whine about how the MTA did nothing. God damn, stop your complaining. ONE, its spelled STEINWAY, NOT STINEWAY.
God damn, this is one ignorant post. This just cries of stupidity. How the hell are you going to complain about the MTA suspending train service during a situation like this?
Two, the E,V,G,R,F run near the Queens BLVD section where the gas leak was.
Besides, would you like to find yourself cooked to a medium rare inside a R46?
VC Madman
So grow a brain.
Like I said, I doubt I'm gonna fry being that I was far away from it, You need to grow some common sense, than I need a brain better yet maybe we all need grow more of something.
Its not about you. Its the other people waiting on the platforms and trains behind you that the MTA was concerned about. Besides, how would you know you wouldn't have fried? Do you take physics in High School? Do you know that all gasses spread themselves out evenly once released into a new environment until the gas eventually is no longer present?
Try to think about the welfare of others before you whine about something that inconvenience you. Just because it's annoying doesn't mean its the MTA's fault. This was a situation that the MTA had no say in, so they did the best they could to ensure the safety of the customers.
And learn how to spell before telling someone to grow a brain.
I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain. And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin' if I only had a brain. I'd unravel every riddle for every individdle in trouble or in pain. With the thoughts I'd be thinkin', I could be another Lincoln, if I only had a brain. Oh I could tell you why the ocean's near the shore. I could think of things I'd never thunk before and then I'd sit and think some more. I would not just be a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain. I would dance and be merry life would be a ding-a-derry if I only had a brain.
This was a unforeseen situation that the TA had no way of preparing for and you're saying that they should've had a back up plan? EEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! I don't think so.And as far as a no TA employee giving you straight answers,what d'ya expect?They were just as much in the dark about what happened as you were.They aren't rocket scientists that know everything in a matter of seconds.
Next time just deal with the damn situation at hand cause there's nothing you nor anyone else can do about it.That's the way life goes.Shit happens and many times we can't be prepared for it.Getting pissed off about it,like you and the other riders did,really doesn't get you anywhere.They told you it was because of a gas leak and then tell you you're on your own and basically that's the best they can do.You can't expect better,like everyone else does cause it just won't ever happen.
VC Madman
That's not how things work around here.At 2AM,the only drivers that are in the bus depots are the one that have to be there to begin thier day and thats it.No extras,no nothing!There is NO time to prepare for a emergency of any kind.The only thing that can be done is to take the best course of action and go from there and that course of action CANNOT involve providing people with ways to get to where their going.Its all to fast and there's not enough time to get ready!AGAIN,DEAL WITH IT YA DAMN CRYBABY!!If they have to "throw you off" like that then so be it!You expect better on such short notice and I'm letting you know now that that cannot be the case!
VC Madman
Do me favor, keep the caps to yourself. I'm not a crybaby, I'm making a point like you guys are. So if you don't like my comments.? BeCause your the Moron For responding to them.
I hope you're grammar/spelling skills aren't a mark of your intellect.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM
In a Baltimore suburb, the Fire Department was called to investigate a strong odor of gas in a duplex house. The family evacuated and two firefighers entered the stucture to locate the source of the gas. The Baltimore Gas & Electric also responded.
The house exploded, completely demolishing the duplex, trapping the firefighters and causing electric service in the area to be disrupted. The firefighters were trapped in what is referred to as a "void". A three hour rescue effort was successful, the two men had only minor injuries.
Gas is nothing to be trifled with. A gas leak in an urban area can follow electic conduits, water mains, telephone conduits, structure, and even tunnels. All it take to ignite gas is a tiny spark.
Think. If a train making an arc happens to spark a gas explosion....
LOL, I was gonna do that this morning but I was like no, let me be good...
Doesn't that contradict your original contention?
VC Madman
I wonder what names you're going to call me?
-OR-
-IN YOUR LANGUAGE-
thay did hawv a plen!!! thay sut donw subway survase!!! thet wos the plen
Please don't give me long e-mail saying I'm not for passenger safty,I'm saying in case we have to come off the trains for whatever reason,There should be a plan to get people home safely.I don't care if I'm the bad guy but please don't put words in my mouth!
Enough Already!
The one valid point that has been brought up in this thread is that NYCT employees don't get any info, so they can't pass it on to customers.
Here's what should be part of the plan and doesn't seem to be:
1. Have ways of getting emergency info to every S/A, and use them.
2. Every S/A should have the borough's bus map handy and be familiar with it, as well as being familiar with all NYC subway routes (which some don't seem to be).
3. S/As should be trained at proposing alternate routes when they are informed about the extent of an emergency.
Ditto for C/Rs.
All this is possible right now. It is a management failure that it isn't happening.
VC Madman
I Gave a answer,
And that would be?
I BELIVE YOU WILL FOR EVER BE,AND NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT ME.It all gets returned some day.
Who was your English teacher in high school? They need to be fired.
I belive in my heart the MTA can do something.
If you feel they're capable of doing something then why the f**k are you complaining?
And if you don't feel they're capable of doing something than what sense does it make to believe they can do something when your own opinion contradicts that?
Furthermore, I don't think anything you just said makes any sense. Your words are all run together and your punctuation and spelling are horrible. It's like reading CDTA's transcript of complaints from the Straphangers Campaign.
: )
Mark
Are you going to rant against the MTA on this board when 9/11 took place and the entire transportation network was shut down, when it was ordered by City and State officials?
Are you going to rant against the MTA on this board when the city fails to notify NYCT (not really the MTA as you call it, NYCT reports to the MTA) about a gas leak? The train you are on rumbles through the area an a chain reaction sets off igniting a fireball. Hundreds of innocent victims die because you are self-centered and selfish in your ways on getting home. Everyone, not just you wants to get home, no one likes the prospect of walking home at 3 in the morning. But that's not the way to approach this area in this manner.
Are you going to rant against the MTA on this board when 2 kids do a stupid stunt at Whitlock Ave, you are on the train (or the one behind it.) shut down the 6 line for this, and NYCT tells tell you to find a bus after you receive a block ticket? You expect Bus Operators to report to West Farms or Kingsbridge depots in 5 minutes when they are in bed asleep or force other operators who are finishing their 8-10 hour shifts to drive down the 6 line and do shuttle buses there? Then the operators will be so tired that a risk for an accident will increase.
Are you going to rant against the MTA for the 8/14, 8/15 blackout? Do you expect subways to be running? Do you expect 10,000 buses to be on subway lines and off regular bus routes? Oh I forgot, you would blame Consolidated Edison for the blackout when it's not their fault.
Are you going to rant against the MTA for the next water main break which floods a subway tunnel. Trains become impassible because the water seeps over the 3rd Rail, and you want a plan to have buses in the next 5 minutes?
Do me a favor, GET A F***ING LIFE BROTHER. I rant against NYCT for improper signage but one thing I can attest on, unlike maybe 20 years ago, is that for emergencies under limited circumstances they get an A+ as far as I'm concerned. People in the blackout were evacuated (maybe not in a timely fashion) but all the customers stuck in trains between stations were safely led out to the street of the next station. Very few customers required medical treatment.
Hopefully in the future when there is a disruption in subway service and you are stuck in the middle of it, you can help customers get home from the Steinway Street when no one tells you about it. When alternate transit is hit and (mostly) miss and have a customer in front of you that is as ballastic as you have been the last few days.
Then again you might fail the next O/C Cleaner (NYCT) or Station Agent exam anyway.
Oh well that's life
http://www.fox5dc.com/_ezpost/data/1385.shtml
Read that shit. That sounds kinda like you, doesn't it?
:0)
VC Madman
This time, it is in the Bronx. Some drunkards riding back to SUNY Maritime College were pulled off a train at Union Square for drinking undeground, but were allowed to stay in the subway system. They got on a N/B 6 train, and then attempted to skylark once the 6 train. Well, did they forget about the Whitlock Avenue Bridge over the Bronx River! BAM! They were knocked unconscious. One of these people died, and the other person is in serious condition.
I am surprised no one posted this earlier. The victims (or fools) here were ages 21 and 22.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/136992p-121815c.html
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Stupid is as stupid does.
wayne
Will the family sue the TA because the officers did not remove them from the transit system?
So, why make a dig at an SUV... You will have to pay for roadside damage even if you were riding in a Volkswagen.
Elias
I'd figure someone was gonna say i'm picking on SUV's, but hey, that's what it always says.
http://www.lynchhummer.com/tailgater.html
When a VW hits the guard rail, the guard rail isn't damaged, so there's nothing to pay.
Well, I *have* damged guard rails with a VW, and I did have to pay. Newspaper never said anything about it though.
Elias
Also, do not EVEN think of mentioning this, or you will stoke the fire of Express M Runs on the U and X again!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Apparently the tickets calmed the other two down so that they did not try such a stupid thing.
Apparently the first two must have finished their Budwisers before the officer caught them at it.
Elias
Don't be so surprised
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Nevermind the mixed spelling consist.
And I've seen "proff" used intentionally with this same meaning in other forums as well.
--Z--
:0)
--Z--
--Z--
76th Street *does* exist!
What is in question it the existance of a subway station at said location.
: ) Picky Picky Picky!
--Z--
He once mispelled PROOF as PROFF and it stuck with an healthy press broadside by Selkirk.
It really should be in the FAQ section.
--Z--
ONCE?????
Salaam has been spelling it proff for at least 5 years!!!
If Salaam has been doing it for 5 years, that's proof even he's in on the joke.
The USPS provides priorty mail shipping materials free, expecting the shipper to use them to ship by priorty mail. I guess this could be another reason why postage rates continue to climb.
Anyway, it is a FEDERAL OFFENCE to misuse free USPS postal supplies including priority mail tape.
The show where I saw this was 65 miles away from my home in another state.
Michael
Washington, DC
Every one of the cards, and there were a lot of them, seemed to be in mint condition.
Is someone reproducing these old cards, and are they available somewhere for sale to the general public?
Someone is reproducing those old car cards and quite nicely. I forgot which company is doing it, I found out a couple of years ago when visiting National Captial Trolley Museum. They told me who was preproducing them.
Recently when attending the MOD trip, R-4 #484 had the whole car decked out with those repros. Looked better than the current car cards, but examining the art work etc, the originals may have been from the 1920's or earlier. That would predate the R-1,4,7A's.
Bill "Newkirk"
What is the purpose of the SEPTA Mid-Winter trip? Well, between Christmas and New Years most of the supervisors are on vacation and all sorts of oppurtunities abound. Moreover, trains still run a weekday schedule, but crowds will be way down.
Why has the date been set so early? Well I have managed to line up a little something special for a limited number of trip attendees so if you are planning to come get in touch with me.
What will we do? Well during the day we will sample all that SEPTA has to offer. Nothing specific has been planed except an R2 Warminster ride. Another possibility is taking the R1 to eastwick then walking to the Island Ave Trolley. So, again, if you plan on comming reply to this thread and make some suggestions. As always we will end the day with BSS express runs.
I hope to see a good, but limited number of your Subtalkers there!!
-Start at Juniper Street Station, and take the 36 to Island Avenue
-Walk to Eastwick on the R1
-Take a train from the Airport to Warminster. I believe they run thru-trains every hour (the other half of the Airport service goes to West Trenton)
-Walk over to Old York Road and take the 22 to Olney Terminal (that should be a lot closer than the 55)
-Take the Broad Street Express back to Center City.
Also, does anyone know if the Camden-Trenton Line will be running that week?
It will be testing on January 4; a car in each direction every half hour all day.
Did they change the routing, because isn't the airport R1 and West Trenton being R3 and your getting off at say jenkintown or earlier for the R2? Even though I thought the Airport train went to jenkintown anyway.
You are right about the route designations, they are practically useless and should be redone.
Either way, I think jenkintown is a great spot if you got the time. Especially when some of those long R5 expresses rumble past at rush hour and cross that switch.
Weekday R1 trips are half Warminster, half Temple University. For all purposes of simplicity, what few Glenside turnbacks remain are designated as R2. However, the system maps and train numbers suggest them to be R1 trains. I believe SEPTA's still on their old circa 1990 kick of the R1 prety much turning back at North Broad, even though it no longer serves the stop, so it's now Temple University. As such, the R1's eastbound end (east/west designation for the Regional Rail is based on travel through Center City, much like the Red Line in DC, but SEPTA designates it North/South (but... R8 and R7 got North outta the city either way)) is probably in turth located at either Roberts Avenue Yard or Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop, using TU as the end station. But again, the Glenside trips carry R1 train numbers. I wonder why they don't just use Fern Rock?
The designations would make more sense if you didn't need to change trains so much. Here's the lowdown:
R1: Airport to Temple University/Glenside/Warminster
R2: Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark to Norristown; 30th Stret Station to Warminster
R3: Media/Elwyn to West Trenton (consistency)
R5: Malvern/Thorndale to Lansdale/Doylestown (consistency at its finest)
R6: Suburban Station to Cynwyd; 30th Street Station to Norristown
R7: Trenton, NJ to Chestnut Hill East
R8: Chestnut Hill West to Fox Chase.
Mind you, it's a different story for the R1-R3 on weekends. R1 is alternated as you said. R2 remains as it is on weekdays (minus the few branch-to-branch trips that exist), and R3 Elwyn is run from Market East Station; either crossing over at Juniper interlocking, or at Vine.
Personally, i think SEPTA should re-time the trains, and go branch-to-branch on everything. The R1... just turn half back in Fern Rock, the other half in Glenside. R6 could also stay as is, but why bother? Weekends, the best course of action would be to through-route half the R5 trains to Norristown, and then have the remaining trips after half-hourly R5 service ends originate at 30th Street.
Airport: Yellow
Wilmington/Newark/Marcus Hook: Maroon
Warminster: Purple
Media/Elwyn: Orange
West Trenton: Black
Thorndale/Paoli: Navy Blue
Doyelstown/Landsdale: Light Blue
Cynwyd: Silver
Norristown: Green
Trenton: Red
Chestnut Hill East: Pink
Fox Chase: Gold
Chestnut Hill West: Brown
The R stuff I believe, has something to do with the original train numbers when SEPTA first took ownership of the ex-Conrail/Reading/PRR trackage (that which Amtrak doesn't own now) As far as I know, the train numbers are four-digit codes. The first number has something to do with destination, the second is final branch served. (meaning if a line erminates in Center City, its second number will be that of the route from whence it came.)
Prefix numeral coding:
0: Typically a nether value, used to indicate R1 service terminating/originating in Glenside. R1 is the sole line to use 0 in its first digit for the train number for a branch-to-branch operation.
1: Branch-to-branch Saturday train
2: Branch-to-branch Sunday train
4: Originates at one branch, but terminates on another line (i.e. Train 4157. Originates in Doylestown, terminates at Philadelphia International Airport)
6: Originates/Terminates in Powelton Yard, west of 30th Street Station
7: Originates/Terminates at Suburban Station. Track number does not matter, but you'll typically never see anything pull out in revenue service from Track 0.
8: Originates/Terminates at Market East (either using Juniper or Vine interlocking)
9: Train ends its run in Roberts Avenue ard or Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop. Trains typically end revenue service on these runs at Temple University, but the code allows for turnbacks at North Broad, Wayne Junction, and possibly Fern Rock Transportation Center.
3 and 5, I don't know. My guess is that 3 acts as a prefix for trains terminating in University City, and 5 is for Jenkintown-Wyncote turnbacks. Any three-digit train numbers are branch-to-branch weekday runs.
This systeam of numbering has been in place for years. I think SEPTA keeps the R designations to make an association between railroad operations and the train numbers, as not to confuse them with any block numbers of the City or Suburban division service... mostly for the higher management. That, and the route numbers save space on timetables.
Separately color-coding the R5, R7, and R8 branches would be somewhat pointless, as practically every train on those lines goes end-to-end. I can agree with the other separations, unless SEPTA suddenly decides to once again go end-to-end on the R2 and R3... they did this years ago, but stopped after RailWorks.
Really, all the line mixing they do is what can complicate things. Even if they added numeric designations (first would be R4 and R9, most likely) to the branches that get the most mixing, and retain the original numbers for those that don't, with all the mixing still going on, it'd still be a confusing matter... Just less so, since the mixed lines would only really operate as far as Central Philadelphia.
Strangely, the public announcemen boards in the stations often tell EXACTLY where he train is going to terminate. Sometimes, you'll see one shown as "TEMPLE UNIVERSITY" or "NORRISTOWN", but other times, you'll see "Roberts Ave. Yard" or "Elm St"
As far as I know, they haven't used Elm Street as a designated destination on the boards for years. Back when the old boards were around, showing just one letter t depict a destination, they used E for Elm Street... but even before the new boards came in (at Market East and 30th Street), the old ones (still at Suburban Station) had long changed E for Elm Street to N for Norristown
My point: SEPTA sometimes lets out more information than a passenger needs to know. My sole guess is that the trains showing yard names indicate trips not coming back out FROM the yard upon arrival... but then, why show "Vine" for Market East turnbacks on the 30th Street boards?
Considering the 55 goes to Doylestown and not Warminster... yes.
Sean@Temple
mccomas@temple.edu
Mark
Count R6 in!
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/international/europe/16MARY.html?hp
Tragedy strikes just before completion of a ship intended to replace the QE2.
The builder: Alstom. More trouble for them.
That's okay, I can handle 145,000 tons no problem
Sincerely,
The Iceberg
Specifications:
Tonnage 150,000 gross tons actual displacement tonnage is around 96 000 ton
Length 1,132 feet
Beam 135 feet
Beam (at Bridge Wings) 147.6 feet
Draft 32 feet, 8 inches
Height 236.2 feet (keel to funnel)
Passenger Decks 17
Speed 28.5 knots (maximum 30)
Number of Passengers: 2,620 normal passenger capacity (lowers)
3,090 total passenger capacity (uppers and lowers)
Ship Personnel: 1,253
Officers British and International
Crew International
Social Staff British and American
Back on topic, I question whether building huge aluminum massively-engineered things really has a future (it's very difficult to make something this big and fragile cross the North Atlantic. "Cruising" liners are more fragile than "crossers."). I listened to the guy speak who helped design the QM2, and they tried to make it look like a "crosser", but it's like the difference between an R142 and a workhorse R-9.
Michael
Washington, DC
February 22 is the kickoff date, right?
The MTA posted the service plan later, at http://www.mta.info/mta/news/hearings/030612-man-bridge.htm and it's still there.
Of course there were extensive debates about it on SubTalk, including a thread titled "2004 Routes,whats gonna Happpen".
(B) 6th Avenue Express to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express 16/5
(D) 6th Avenue Express to Coney Island via West End Local 24/7
(F) 6th Avenue Local to Coney Island via Culver Local 24/7
(V) 6th Avenue Local to Second Avenue / 16/5
(M) Nassau Street to Bay Parkway via West End / Rush Hours
This is THE definitive thingie unless:
1) The change it, or
2) I'm Mistaken
: ) Elias
Why are they switching the (N) and (W) in Manhattan? Now, isn't the (N) local in Manhattan, and the (W) is express?
Steve,
They putting my "N" train back on the bridge? DAMN! *frowning*
N Broadway Line
Life isn't always simple or fair.
The regulars get used to it.
The tourists eventually make it back to their hotels, though sometimes only much later in the day.
Better trains that are expresses in one borough and local in another than trains that are totally simple to understand but don't serve the needs of the public as well. For example, if you made the F express in Manhattan and the B local south of 34th (post-Feb 2004), you'd screw up capacity royally.
(N) Broadway Express to Coney Island via Bridge and Sea Beach - 16ish/5;
(N) Broadway Local to Coney Island via Bridge and Sea Beach - 16ish/2;
(N) Broadway Local via Tunnel and Sea Beach - 8ish/7
(W) Broadway Local to Whitehall - Rush Hours and Middays
No more 24 hour service??? hmmm.. I guess the "Q" line will be the fillin when the "N" isn't running. I don't hate the idea, but just a little confused. hmmm
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Unless the plan itself is changed, I assume that the only changes will be those stated in that announcement.
The "free transfer" indicated is between the BMT and IRT only. If you look closely at the map, subway transfers are indicated by a little line or bar connecting the symbols for the participating stations (e.g., 59-Lex, Columbus Circle) or by showing them sharing a common station symbol (Queensborough Plaza).
There is no bar connection the IRT/BMT station symbol with the IND one at QP.
The original transfer was a ticket transfer between the two stations.
in the last 10 years
reconstruction of the Franklin Shuttle
reconstruction of the 7's Queens Blvd concrete viaduct (4/5/93-3/31/97)
post-WTC attack changes
B/C Bronx terminal swap (3/1998)
among mnay others...
I believe you can do anything you want with those maps (distribute them, put 'em up on the 'net, etc.) as long you don't make a commission off it.
Walking in the area today I noted the luxury hotels in the GCT area. They were built there when GCT was NYC's gateway to the rest of the country.
Could transcontinental service ever return to GCT?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It was at both stations (with change in Chicago, of course) for much of the 20th century.
Amtrak eventually decided to consolidate at Penn, since it could serve all routes (once the Albany connector was built) and GCT couldn't.
I remember taking AMTK upstate from GCT, and I remembered when they fixed the Spuyten Dyvil Bridge to allow AMTK into Penn...
I was visiting with another monk from North Dakota, and we took the circle line all the way around until we got to that bridge, and then had to go back the way we came since we could not pass the bridge.
I assumed that they were removing the bridge, and was overjoyed to find that it was actually being put back in service.
Elias
Don't remember the exact when (1985?) but the why was Amtrak's desire to consolidate operations, and therefore transfers, in a single station. If you've ever tried to haul luggage between Penn and GCT, the reasoning speaks for itself.
Walking in the area today I noted the luxury hotels in the GCT area. They were built there when GCT was NYC's gateway to the rest of the country.
Well, it was in head to head competition with the Pennsy since 1910.
Could transcontinental service ever return to GCT?
Probably not. Metro North owns the station and I don't think there is any incentive for Amtrak to restore service. If there were a national privatization and increase in rail service, who knows?
One point, there never was "transcontinental" service from either Penn or GCT, though I seem to recall that Amtrak has tried to mock some up with a through sleeper via New Orleans. Eastern rail service ended pretty much where baseball used to, in St. Louis and Chicago. Pre-WWII ads used to complain "A hog can go through Chicago without changing trains, but you can't." :)
Of course, considering the final destination of those Chicago-transiting hogs ...
IIRC, you bought your transportation from the railroad companies and your accomodations from the Pullman Company, or am I wrong on this?
Elais
It was a change of trains. They disconnected the sleepers from one train and attached them to another in Chicago.
Why, and when, did transcontinental service exit Grand Central and enter Penn Station?
There was never transcontinental rail service out of either station. Neither was there transcontinental service out of CNJ Terminal, PRR Exchange Place Terminal, Erie Terminal, Hoboken Terminal or Weehawken Terminal. In fact, the only transcontinental trains run between California and Florida.
Amtrak is not synonymous with “transcontinental (rail) service,” BTW—only long-distance rail service in the USA, for the most part.
Could transcontinental service ever return to GCT?
Let us re-define that as “is there a possibility for long-distance rail service, as opposed to the present commuter service, to return to Grand Central Terminal”. As it stands, the “Alternative G” of the Access To The Region’s Core project was the best chance of such a thing happening, but that appears to be completely off the table now. Not unless the federal government decides to invest in the rails to the same extent that they currently invest in highways and airports, and public or private operators are given more leeway to operate competitive passenger rail service without bearing the infrastructure burden so directly as at present, would it be possible to conceive seeing long-distance (and, possibly, transcontinental) passenger rail operating out of the largest passenger rail terminal in the world again…
There was never transcontinental rail service out of either station. <<
OK, OK, nonlocal service. Jeeeezzzz....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sure there was!
It was handled by the Pullman Corporation. You could book a through sleeper. The Car would change railroads, but you *could* go right on through.
: ) (That's *my* story... you got a different one? )
Sure, if Amtrak (or whoever's running such service) is willing to pay the MTA to use the station, and to put up with passengers' inconvenience of not ending up at Penn Station in terms of connecting trains.
I remember at least one instance since Amtrak consolidated operations in Penn Station when there was some major storm that shut down Amtrak's West Side line to Penn Station, but not Metro-North operations. Amtrak diverted a few trains from the Empire Corridor to GCT instead.
Of course, you could only ever run trains from the north (Empire Corridor or NEC north of New York) into GCT. There aren't any reasonable ways to get trains there from the south or west.
Arrived there sometime after Warrington and other dignataries made speeches. There were no souvenirs or freebies. Probably NJT austerity !
The ROW south is double tracked merging into a single track with bumping post. Locals I spoke with said that money has been earmarked for the usual EIS to extend the line furthur to 8th St.
Since CSX has a yard there, I'm wondering if they may sell of a track or two for the HBLR ROW. Otherwise, I was told of single tracking to 8th St.and 2005 for the extension to become reality.
The light rail cars are not programmed to announce and display 22nd St, so the announcements are by the operator. Perhaps they were programming the laid cars today and program the cars that ran today tomorrow.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah, I said "could" not "would"...I know it wouldn't.
www.forgotten-ny.com
the primary pier was in the center of the navigation channel
Funny how that was not a problem for more than a century prior to that, right? Suddenly, bridge-builders of the past did not know what they were doing?
Besides, did you ever happen to see the PANYNJ’s photographs featuring a container ship blown up to ten times its size in real life?
Funny how you haven't noticed that cargo ships and oil tankers have gotten much, much bigger over the last century.
Why do you think the PA needs to keep dredging deeper and deeper channels to Port Elizabeth? Because it's a great hobby and they have nothing better to do?
the primary pier was in the center of the navigation channel
Funny how that was not a problem for more than a century prior to that, right? Suddenly, bridge-builders of the past did not know what they were doing?
Besides, did you ever happen to see the PANYNJs photographs featuring a container ship blown up to ten times its size in real life? Take a look at this mess. Note the size of the containers on that ship, never mind the blown-up image of the ship itself—and compare it to the width of the bridge, which had no less than four railroad tracks on it. Not only that, but the ship looks like it has almost zero clearance under the Bayonne Bridge when in real life you could fly Boeing 747s through the space between the ship and the Bayonne Bridge. Hazard to navigation indeed…
Now, there's a certain person (Mr. Brennan, right?) who maintains the Master Transit Map at Columbia.edu who can change another detail.
He'll be making 3 additional changes by Febr. 22.
Bill "Newkirk"
For all those that expect the HBLR to extend to 9th street, please think again. They have not even started ANY work on track extention so this is years away.
This morning, the HBLR was standing room only by the third stop! It's incredible how many more passengers are flowing onto the system. With the single car occupancy rule now history, the Holland tunnel was jammed packed with cars from the Turnpike extention! I don't know how the mororists can take it but the smile on my face was wider than ever as the light rail just passed those folks behind.
Life is great.
I wonder if that South Jersey light rail line will have the same success ?
Bill "Newkirk"
http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Yards/MH/Below.php
Looks like the old 9th Ave El tunnel with its abandoned wrecks, but it's not. It is somewhere in NYC...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Mazal Tov regardless. May your boy have a long, happy and prosperous life and fill yours with joy.
I'm reminded of the late 70s Saturday Night Live mock commercial
for the Lincoln towncar..
That's more like a bris on 316
Mohel Leverett (at least he looks like one ) was one of the Election Inspectors at BERA yesterday. He was willing to do the honors but on car 629. Claimed it was too cold to do the job on an open air car.
Seriously Jeff, check your e-mails. I sent you and three others a detailed report of the Elections
Tell me about it. During my last visit to NYC in 1999, I was going to catch the E at 71 Av, and as I was walking down from the mezzanine, I saw an R-46 consist pull in on the Manhattan-bound express track, but I couldn't see the side signs, so I assumed it was an F, so I strolled down the stairs and as I was halfway down I saw "E to World Trade Ctr"! You should've seen me hurry down the rest of those stairs!
I remember E used to have lots of R46...now why they take them out and replace it with R32? (although I think its a good move ;-) )
VC Madman
VC Madman
How it would work, after removing the R10s from the "G" in '85, the R32s provided all service on the "G" 24/7. Then in 1988, the R32s were only used during the weekdays and R46s were used on weekends-this was when R32s were beginning their GOH. This arrangement lasted until there were enough GOH R32s at Jamaica to supply service on the "G" and "R" (as of late '88 and early '89, GOH R32s were only on the "A", "C", "G" and "R". The "B", "D", "N", "Q" and "S" had unrebuilt R32s). Once their were enough GOH R32s in Jamaica around the middle of '89, the "G" went back to 100% R32s 24/7 until late 1990 when the "E" and "F" were swapping their R46s for the "G" and "R"s R32s.
The V only runs R-46's because the V line superintendent doesn't like R-32's. That's all.
:0)
Liar Liar! pants on fire! the only day V ever use R32 was the day when they TA doing testing on the QB line running all E F G R V together on early dec b4 the official V permanent service. Since V is nothing but all R46.
Q replaces R in QB and J replace R to/from Bay Ridge, J also ends at Broad street on weekends night
Q Cirle has one or two set R32, and mostly R68
J has only one set R32, mostly R40M, R42
M replaces N to/from Stillwell and W replaces N in Astoria 24/7
M has only one set R32, Half R40S and other half R42
W has only one set R32, and mostly R68A.
Q Diamond is normal and
Q Diamond once seen in R68
E replaces C in Brooklyn to/from Euclid all time except night
E has couple of R38 which maybe gotten from the C.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24626
VC Madman
VC Madman
I can not believe that is the type of conduct NJ Transit cops are supposed to be policing.
Unfortunately, photography is really banned at Secaucus Transfer.
I have taken pictures out the back of NEC trains while taking to NJT managers and train crew so the signals are definitly mixed.
In the nicest possible way, you need to be a pain in th a** to the complaints bureau, and make sure that the official concerned has been advised of the policy and get it in writing.
Do this enough and the phoney-security zealots will find other things to worry about.
: )
Hoboken railroad station isn't under the jurisdiction of PATH.
But that is interestign, given the people who have been hassled on the PATH.
To join your digression from the topic of the thread, the list doesn't seem to be very comprehensive. There's none of the usual obvious things like no obstruction of customers, no littering, no dangerous activity, no destruction or theft of property, etc.
Everybody on the board should ask them Monday Morning.
: ) Elias
Actually, all we know is that it is prohibited by the Port Authority. Whether they have the right under NJ and NY law to prohibit photography (which would make it actually illegal) is not something anyone has been able to establish conclusively.
If you are ever confronted be very firm in asking to see were this policy is written down and then pay a vist to the Customer Service booth and inquire about a photo permit.
Anyway, come Monday I plan on emailing and/or calling NJ Transit customer service and see if I can get the "official" policy explained to me. It's easy to say, "Oh it was just some bored cop looking for something to do," but actions like that really do chip away another little piece of our rights as free citizens.
Come to think about it, that's what caused July 4, 1776.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/hoboken/hoboken.html
OK, coppers, come and get me!
I have an aspiration to live in Hoboken actually. I have friends there and I enjoy its architecture and small town ambience. But its government seems hellbent on squelching that hometown vibe and besides, Hoboken got priced outta my range a decade ago.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They trouble is, these organizations will load into their "rules" all the restictions they'd LIKE to have, knowing full-well that most people are not going to object much less take them to court. The bottom line is, they only have the right (or should have the right) to prohibit conduct or actions that will be clearly DAMAGING to them. They have no right to control conduct otherwise. Not until martial law is declared, anyway, and our Bill Of Rights is suspended.
Determining what's a hobby and what's a business is not always easy. You might consider the sale of a calendar with NJT photos a hobby, but they might think otherwise.
Well.......E-V-I-L spelled backwarsd is L-I-V-E !
Bill "Newkirk"
"Mommy, I dont have an ID can you get yours out?"
I'm not satisfied at the response I got and I want to pursue this further. Plus the rep's sudden mood change makes me suspect there's more to this then we know, though exactly what that is I have no idea.
Airport photography is a commonly discussed topic on airliners.net. As best I can tell, photography within terminals doesn't generally cause much of an issue. Photography of security checkpoints IS prohibited, most likely to protect the privacy of TSA employees.
I've read about people seeing lots of discarded metrocards while riding (and saw them on my visit), and was wondering if any of you guys could gather some up and send them down here (I can send postage, et cetera, no problem). When I got to visit this summer, I didn't think about collecting them off the ground, nor did I think I'd have another use for them.
The reason is this: it's part of a christmas present for my girl, and I need authentic metrocards that have been through the system (an important part - that's why i thought the discarded ones would be ideal). Just if you can, send as many as you want to, not collector's or anything, just regular metrocards. Plus, it could keep you occupied while waiting for a train, haha.
I'd appreciate any help I can get... it would be *very* much appreciated by me, and once christmas comes around, her as well. Thanks a ton! Hope to hear from people soon... have a good weekend!
Help reduce station litter! Send me discarded metrocards for christmas!
thanks...
yan, who lives in Atlanta, saldy not New York.
ps. sorry for the long-ish post! if more explanation is wanted, e-mail.
* Ryan in Atlanta
I fond it annoying and stupid in the extreme but that's just my personal thing...
Yes, Ron, I know the feeling after reading many of your posts. :)
I'm not sure what I'm smelling in that station, but its very pungent and "dirty." I've notice that the stalagtites in the station are tinged with yellow (I shudder to think why) and maybe that's what causing the smell. The smell is magnified when trains enter the station from either end, because the air pushed in front of the trains forces the smell to swirl around. In the summer, the smell is even worse.
Yuch.
#3 West End Jeff
I haven't ridden the 7 in a while - is there still a strong smell of fuel oil just east of Grand Central?
#3 West End Jeff
The same end of the BMT platforms is worse, believe it or not.
I think that smell has something to do with the fish merchant upstairs and when they wash the sidewalks. There probably is a leak in the storm drain system since that station always had rust stains on the tiles.
Bill "Newkirk"
Honorary mention to Canal St Q/W, which has such bad sewage that it causes BULGES in the platform.
How can something that looks so nice smell so bad?
wayne
They put fish out for sale on a bed of ice, and at the end of the day the ice starts to melt and picks up the scent of the fish. By the time it ferments it acquires this really noxious bouquet.
wayne
Is it enough to make you want to barf?
wayne
Thanks in advance
As for the several cars that were painted red in 1962 (like #3099 and #3342 but not #3210 were), the interiors were done with bright orange walls, dark blue side doors plus ends, and bright white ceiling...ironically, the official flag colors for the City of New York. That same interior color scheme was also found for a time during the early 1960's on R-9 #1741 and R-14 #5837, and it was oddly dubbed as being the "World's Fair" scheme (for 1964-65).
-William A. Padron
["BB/6th Ave.", "Wash.Hts.-168th St."]
So south of 42nd Street you'd need a crossunder (pedestrian passageway underneath the tracks).
MTA is renovating 59 St, according to the text on this website.
WHile you are correct that the stations are too shallow to allow crossOVERS, a few did have crossUNDERS. Most of these have since been closed. I have used the 28th Street one many times until it was closed in 1991. Evidence of it still exists on the northbound platform, just to the south of the fare control area. It's been boarded up like that for the last 12 years, I don't know why they leave that barricade there.
I believe someone mentioned that 23rd Street had one to, but have never witnessed it. Of course Canal Street has a crossunder, and I think some of the others did too, but don't remember which stations. Most were closed dues to safety concerns. One Friday in 1991, someone was raped in the 28th Street one, and by the following Monday morning it was closed permanently.
Sorry about my careless typing. I asume you noticed my sentence structure was awkward.
Original Bas relief:
Reproduction mosaic tablet at the former crossunder:
(Excuse the quality of the photos, I took them around 1989 with a 110 piece of junk camera. I have to get back there with my camera one day. I wish I snapped a photo of the underpass that day, because it was still open then.
The crossunder at 66th is obviously not original -- it's at the wrong end of the station. It was probably added to make for relatively easy access between Lincoln Center and the NB platform.
The crossunder at 96th was originally the only way to get from the street to the express platforms aside from walking through a local. To this day, all passengers entering and exiting at 96th have to use the underpass. The (full-time) entrance at 93rd-94th, added when the platforms were lengthened, is more conventional.
Continuing up the original Broadway line, 103rd and 116th have fare control one level above the platforms and 125th has fare control one level below. 110th, 137th, and 145th have no crossunders or crossovers. On the Lenox line, all stations are one flight down with no crossunders except 110th, which has a single island platform with fare control at the north end, somewhat reminiscent of the J/Z along Fulton Street, and a HEET in the middle.
Not true. There are crossovers at 125th, 103rd, 96th, 68th, 59th, 51st and 42nd. Stations lacking crossovers are 116th, 110th, 86th and 77th.
They aren't double deck stations, but the tracks are double decked; i.e., the express tracks run under the locals. I think that's what Ron meant.
As well as 33rd, 28th, 23rd, Astor, Spring, and Bleecker.
Did 18th street have one when it was open? And one more question, any possibility that they would open these crossunders, as the crime rate as gone down in the city? Closed-circuit cameras could be installed in these crossunders as a safety measure.
I have the 1997 edition of a book by Gene Sansome,of NYCTA, who writes about the Evolution of NYC Subway Cars. Fabulous book. There is a new edition, I think, which I recall some posters here not liking, but I could be wrong about that...
There is also a bibliography here.
The closest I could suggest, especially as a first book, would be the latest edition of Fischler's "The Subway," if you are willing to take some of the history with a grain of salt.
Both books, though, pretty much stop at 1980 after the R46's had been around almost a decade.
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Mark
I apologize in advance for the missing link.
What does http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/nyregion/thecity/16subw.html have to do with Sea Beach Fred? :)
That's a load of bull ... same as when they wanted to skip 125th in Manhattan on the 1/9 until the local folks made a stink.
This is the mezzanine at Junius St., the only one that I know of.
This shot is taken on Powell St, facing Livonia Ave. Where is this Powell St mezzanine?
But still, where is the 2nd mezzanine?
They could reactivate it if need be. The real kicker in this project is creating a secure bridge within fare control.
wayne
Hmm.
I am sympathetic t Community Board 5's request for a transfer (and it would be iseful to the neighborhood).
But Charles Barron's comments constituted a cheap shot. Unfortunately, that kind of trash talk is used as a first resort all too commonly.
Charles Barron's comment was another example of race baiting. The 2nd Ave subway would start in Harlem and run through Spanish Harlem. It would serve far more of the people he refers to that that connection between the IRT & BMT.
This is nothing new for Mr. barron. Before election day he made a comment about the refferendum supported by Mayor Bloomburg. No matter how you felt about the prop., Barron's comment about rich white men trying to steal elections was ampther cheap shot.
Again, as I put it on another thread, since many many people going to work or school have unlimited ride metrocards of 7 days or 1 month duration, it is only an issue for those who have to use pay per ride metrocards.
How does MTA compile figures that only 3000 people/week use this transfer? And how many of them pay the 2nd fare (don't have unlimited ride metrocards?). They did institue such a transfer for the affluent people on Lexington Avenue (of course we understand that was just an attempt to make the 63rd St. decision palatable for East Side riders who already had a metrocard transfer at 53rd St.).
One of the reasons the MTA pushed metrocards over toekn, and they are clearly right on this, is the ability to institute free transfers. You can free transfer from a subway to a bus, why not a subway to another subway????
I doubt extremely that it could represent that much of a loss of revenue as opposed to physically constructing a connection.
They can't really have accurate stats on that, because no one knows how many people pay two fares. Besides, there may be lots of people that would use this transfer but don't because they would have to pay an extra fare. I put this in a post last week, but will copy and paste it here.
A person pays his/her fare, and travels between two points, let's say they are trveling between Rockaway Parkway (L) and Chambers Street (1,2,3,9). Currently the person's ride would involve the L train to 6th Avenue to transfer to the 1,2,3,9 train - cost = 1 fare. Let's say they set up Livonia-Junius as an out of system, MetroCard transfer complex. The person would now have the option of taking the L from Rock Pkwy to Livonia, transfer to the 3 at Junius, and then to Chambers St - cost = 1 fare. Now repeat this throughout the system at other locations where lines cross, but you can't transfer without paying an extra fare.
If the transfer was there, people would change their riding habits.
Although such a transfer may benefit less people than Jay/Lawrence or Bleecker/Broadway-Lafyette, it would probably cost less to implement a transfer there than at Bleecker or Jay. I don't think it's fair for them to simply dismiss it like that without first looking into it to see how much it would cost, and what the cost-benefit ratio would be of this compared to Jay/Lawrence or Bleecker/Lafyette. 3,000 people is hardly a negligible number.
By the way, is the stairway from Junius St. above the LIRR actually an entrance, or is it an exit only?
Bob Sklar
But the idea that the usefulness of that improvement is similar to the other new transfers, at Bleeker and Jay, is just wrong. The potential number of transferees at those locations is much, much higher. There just aren't as many riders who need to transfer out at the end of two lines, vs. in the heart of the city where multiple lines converge.
Perhaps the 3 station could be moved directly above the freight tracks, with HEET entrances at the Junius end. But the climb would probably be greater, and I think the station would end up on a substantial grade.
I agree that a transfer here is hardly the priority that the planned Bleecker and Lawrence/Jay transfers are, but it still would be nice.
Well I suppose a connection to only the northbound platform would suffice. Passengers transferring in the opposite direction can still access it via the 3's mezzanine.
Canadian or Canadien...remember that thread, that one was a blast!
A good thing Houston St and Houston, TX are spelt the same, even if not said the same.
I'm surprised there'd be any doubt, because it's named after a person whose name is part of the historical record.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Redbirds are the rightful property of the New York City Transit Authority. They can chop them as they please.
??
But we could be wrong here. It sounded as likely as the others I proposed. Of course those could be wrong too.
The interesting part was that both cab ends were pointed south & it was going north ????
VC Madman
Q10 to Liberty Ave
A Lefferts Train to Rockaway Blvd
A Rockaway Park Train to Rockaway Park
A Rockaway Park Train to Rockaway Blvd
Q10 to Austin St or 82 Ave(?)
According to my GPS, the last stop of the A train is less than 9 miles from the Queensbourgh bridge. After I got off at Lefferts Blvd, I rode all the way back over the bridge into Manhattan and took the Path Train at 14th street, then back home on the HBLR. What a day!
Mostly street scene oriented, but some nice transit-oriented shots. Nice color picture of a 8000 Peter Witt on Stillwell Avenue with a Sea Beach Triplex up on the structure of Track H under "Trolleys." Another shot I like is under "Bath Beach" with a picture of what I think is Bath Avenue looking east, with the West End trolley entering from the left.
Still needs a lot of pictures to fill. Tell him Groucho sent you. :)
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/t3cur.pdf
The early Sunday service seems to be the MSH until about 6:00, then a shuttle train.
Has anyone ever done this before? Looks like it's an actual steam locomotive trip. And the cars look pretty authentic as well. Anyone had any experience with this? Is it worth an overnight from the city?
~W
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was and is a real opeerating railroad. They took on the tourist business to subsidise its few freight movements. So yes, they do have a freight business.
Elias
Even better is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, just across the road. They have GG-1 4800 ("Old Rivets") and 4935 on display (4859, on display in Harrisburg, also belongs to the museum) as well as M1b 6755, K4s 3750, DD1s 3937 and 3937 (used at Sunnyside Yard), and many other historic pieces of equipment.
The east end of the Strasburg RR is at Leaman Place; from there you can get a good view of Amtrak operations and can often get shots that have both Amtrak and the Strasburg train in the same photo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
I have some photos from the RR museum of PA from Sept 9, 2001
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
(Corrected spelling and grammer errors)
Chuck Greene
By the way, a paramedic friend of mine with Los Angeles City Fire Department personally took care of a car crash victim who died in a similar manner. His legs were crushed but the tourniquet effect kept him conscious for a while. It was clear he could not be saved, so my friend brought his wife and kids over to say goodbye to Daddy. It was horrible, but my friend handled it as well as anybody could.
A tournequet is something you strap around an arm or leg to restrict the arteriies from letting blood pass toward an open wound, slowing loss of blood. Today we don't like to keep them in place longer than 20 minutes or so, and they are not used as a first resort, because of the danger that the victim could lose the limb.
When I got to where most of the people were gathering around in a circle, I was shocked to see that one of the kids trapped between the train and the platform.
You could see him from the waist up. He was alert and crying for his mother. I stayed for about another half hour waiting for EMS which still didn't show up by the time I left.
When I told somebody who worked for transit years later, he told me that the kid probably never made it for the reasons you just described.
I am so glad that I left when I did. Seeing that kid trapped between the platform and that R30s was enough for me.
I was surprised when I learned that Vincent D'Onfrio, the actor who played the trapped commuter also played the crazed recruit who killed his drill instructor in "Full Metal Jacket"
In one scene in SVU, Belzer and Ice-T question a teenager about a perp. The kid says that the guy was "old, not grandfather old like you, but old" Ice-T says to Munch "you want me to smack now ? ".
FYI, the actual station used was Johns Hopkins Medical Center, not the one shown.
When the station was "renamed" for the filming, the MTA and the production company had signs posted advising the customers what was going on.
The actual filmimg was done on a Sunday. When Homicide was being filmed the subway didn't operate on a Sunday.
The tunnel was indeed in NJ. It sees no freight traffic.
Port Jefferson
And this awesome view from the train between Port Jefferson and Stony Brook
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s990338.htm
Before with CanonScan 1250
After with Epson Perfection 2400
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
I like David Gunn. He gets kudos from me.
“This number will allow us to continue to operate the national system. However, we will have to assess the impact of this funding level on our current budget over the next month or so.”
There is a lot that is said when one reads between the lines, and even reads the words written therein.
The following has even more veiled:
“I appreciate the efforts of the governors, mayors, state legislators and others who advocated for adequate funding for Amtrak. I especially want to thank Senators Murray Byrd, Hutchison, Specter and Hollings and Representatives Bill Young, Obey, Olver, Quinn and Sweeney for their support.”
What that seems to me to say is, “I acknowledge these particular supporters of Amtrak for their particularly strong and dedicated efforts towards improving Amtrak and securing much-needed additional funding. The rest of Congress and the current Administration I condemn for being either middle-of-the-road or totally against Amtrak for no really good reason other than being purely misinformed or being bought out by the special interest lobbies that oppose Amtrak in particular.”
However, I think it's a minor miracle Amtrak got even that much from Congress.
As someone who DEPENDS on Amtrak, I couldn't be MORE pleased!
A friend of mine worked 10 years as a tower operator for the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines in South Jersey. When his job was abolished, he went to the Illinois Central and worked for David Gunn. To this day he has the utmost admiration for Gunn.
It's DAMNED rare that someone with a clue gets to RUN a railroad, Gunn is CERTAINLY the best there is, as pretty much ANYONE except naysayers and idiologues can tell you. And the latter FEAR him, because he knows his stuff and won't cowtow.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Correct my misconceptions here. What would happen if Gunn were to:
1. Take the 1.2 million, which is just over a shutdown budget, and fix the Northeast Corridor.
2. Keep the NEC and any other revenue-producing corridors operating at tip-top levels, and charging top lease prices to MNRR and others (Shore Line East? The T?) who rent space from Amtrak.
2. Come up with a good five-year capital plan based on these low numbers from Congress.
3. Shut down the money-losing lines, no matter how the local congressment squawk.
4. Tell Congress he's keeping the NEC open in order to get INCOME from the lines he's leasing to. Show them the books. Tell them, if they want Amtrak to live, it has to profit, and if they want to kill it, kill it.
Unfortunately, that's one thing he can't do.
DoD has been trying for years to shut down the C-130 Hercules assembly line. The Hercules is a great aircraft, but the Air Force has more than enough of them already, and the C-17 combines really heavy lifting with amazing "short field" performance.
The trouble is, the C-130 is assembled in a congressional district, which if I recall correctly, was represented by Sam Nunn, a senior guy on defense committees in the House until recently. So more airplanes showed up on the appropriations bills earmarked for Hercules aircraft (the C-17 is built in Long Beach, CA).
Maybe when F-22 production ramps up a bit in Marietta, there won't be quite as much pressure to spend money on cargo/transport airplanes the Air Force doesn't need.
Are you saying the NEC is more unprofitable than the rest of the system, or just that it is unprofitable?
This was actually already done under Warrington
-- Charging MNRR more (although it would hurt me)
This would work, if MNRR didn't have such a stranglehold on Amtrak's strategic assets. If the relationship with MNRR goes sour, Amtrak may as well abandon all service north of New York Penn Sta.
Are you saying the NEC is more unprofitable than the rest of the system, or just that it is unprofitable?
It's never clear. It depends on how you allocate costs. The way Amtrak's accounting was done before 2001 allows Amtrak to treat freight railroad capital as free, while it treated Northeast Corridor capital as Federally-funded (hence also free). Under that accounting system NEC made a profit while the other routes lost money. Now the accounting system still treats the freight railroad capital as free, but the NEC capital costs are folded in, and NEC shows a loss. Gunn stated that passenger rail will never make money. He is correct.
AEM7
In addition to that, depreciation is the wrong measure of economic efficiency. Life cycle costs of asset is. Consider this: if you depreciated the NEC over 30 years, it means you will have to re-construct the NEC every 30 years. Obviously that is not true, the NEC is still here with us some 150 years later. The point about it being "unprofitable" is that the cost of operating and maintaining the NEC in its current state while investing enough in capacity so that there will not be shortages in future (i.e. the long-run marginal cost) is not offset by the maximum revenue that Amtrak is able to levy from its riders (i.e. by pricing to maximize revenue and not ridership).
AEM7
AEM7
It would be nice if there were a word for "maintenance and repair" that included "modernization" without invoking the strictly accounting term "depreciation." Because it's exactly this kind of short-term pressure (and the mindset that comes from it) that makes the current Congress WANT to sell Amtrak off for scrap.
If Gunn had gone into being a Columbian drug lord instead of running American railroads, at least someone might have thanked him for doing his job.
Whhaaaaat? I think you haven't been paying attention, the C-130J is going to be the replacement for the C-130E. That production line isn't going anywhere. The C-130J is a massive improvement over the exsisting C-130s with it's Allison AE2001D3 engines (developed from the V-22s engines), electronic cockpit, and lower operating costs. Already the Air Force has received their WC-130Js for flying into hurricanes, I saw some on the weather channel this summer. And I also saw an EC-130J Commando Solo II of the 193rd Special Operations Wing of the Pennsylvania Air National Guard while on the PA Turnpike out around Harrisburg, where the EC-130s are based. Current plans call for the completely unrebuilt C-130Es (called C-130 AWADs) to be out of service by 2013, with the rebuilt C-130Es gone sometime after 2020, replaced by C-130Hs, 'Js, and the new Advanced Tactical Transport (whatever form that may take).
The C-17 is in no way a replacement for the C-130, it may carry more to a strip just about as decrepit as something a C-130 would usually hit, but with such a high airframe cost, there is no way that the C-17 will ever replace the shear numbers of C-130s we operate. The 120 C-17 are pretty much as many as we're gonna get, no spare airframes for gunships, airborne command posts, search and rescue or special missions planes. As it was explained to me by a C-17 crewman at McGuire, the C-17's development had little or nothing to do with the C-130, rather the C-17 was designed to correct a problem that the C-5 and C-141B brought to the AMC. The C-5 was so large that often it would be filled to maximum take off weight before it's cavernous cargo hold was filled up, while the C-141B was too small to move tanks and such, but often they'd run out of volume before they'd reached maximum takeoff weight. In either case they were wasting airlift capacity, so somebody decided that they needed a mini C-5 that could merely move 1 M1A2 tank as opposed to the C-5's two, thus the C-17 was born. In the course of the C-17 development it was decided that a good benchmark for the rough-field capability was the C-130, and that was copyied as best they could in the C-17. Admittedly in the past there have been projects like the YC-14 and YC-15 that were to replace the C-130, but in this case the C-17 isn't out to get the C-130. The C-130 is here to stay.
That was a political decision, not a technical decision.
"The C-130J is a massive improvement over the exsisting C-130s with it's Allison AE2001D3 engines (developed from the V-22s engines), electronic cockpit, and lower operating costs."
I am not disputing that. Most of the gains are in electronics, and they are impressive.
"Already the Air Force has received their WC-130Js for flying into hurricanes, I saw some on the weather channel this summer."
Air Force aircraft have been flying into hurricanes for decades. The WC-130J is just the latest in that line.
"The C-17 is in no way a replacement for the C-130, it may carry more to a strip just about as decrepit as something a C-130 would usually hit, but with such a high airframe cost, there is no way that the C-17 will ever replace the shear numbers of C-130s we operate."
Yes, there will be fewer C-17s than C-130s. However, the C-17 can carry an M-1 battle tank and other loads the Hercules cannot handle. Moreover, its operating costs are very low compared to other jets, so it is not as expensive to operate as you might think.
"As it was explained to me by a C-17 crewman at McGuire, the C-17's development had little or nothing to do with the C-130,"
My post may have implied that it was related. You are correct.
The C-130 is here to stay, but the Air Force could have chosen to upgrade or remanufacture existing ones. The procurement of new C-130s was strictly political, nothing more.
Although, if Amtrak is only paying the marginal costs of track usage, I wonder if that includes a "party rental" for the mornings when it rips up the catenaries and nothing else can run. You know, like when you rent a whole restaurant and no one else gets to eat.
Amtrak's enabling legislation states that it cannot be liable for any damage Amtrak equipment causes on private property, an allowance known as "exemption from business liability insurance" that has allowed it to nearly monopolize the Commuter Rail operating franchise market in the U.S. I am not sure if in the case where Amtrak train derails through Amtrak's fault, if Amtrak makes a "goodwill" payment to those whose property is destroyed.
Shore Line East Service. Is this alone enough to force ConnDOT to settle? No. Will anything force ConnDOT to settle? Amtrak withdrawing stops from New Haven and Stamford for all trains, withdrawing Inland Route service in its entirity. Who would it hurt more? Inland Route has a solid ridership base, although New Haven does not fare as well as some other stations such as Providence and Los Angeles in terms of ridership. Ultimately Amtrak will lose political support, while Connecticut residents will have poorer intercity rail service. It's a lose-lose situation.
AEM7
It's actually a nicely organized website.
This wont be the first time that that would have happens. When the R26/R28/R29s on the "2" were swapped with the R33s on the "5" back in 1995, the TA never bothered to change the stickers.
Funny thing, about 10 R33s were transfered from the "5" to the "4" after TWO crashes in the R62s in the Bronx, the TA changed the stickers from black to orange.
1/9 (242/Van Courtlandt)-red
2 (239, E 180/Unionport)-R142, no sticker yet*
3 (Lenox/Livonia)-orange
4 (Jerome/Concourse)-R142/142A, no sticker yet*
5 (E 180/Unionport)-R142, no sticker yet*
6 (Westchester)-R142A, no sticker yet
7 (Corona)-purple*
S shuttle-?
*Does not include Redbirds stored at these location for spares/work service, special events, etc.
It's pretty bad. Come up and see for yourself.
http://www.geocities.com/sockanosset4/bera/subtalk/thurston2898.jpg
What is this streetcar? That looks a lot like the inside of a TTC Peter Witt except the only place in the United States that I know of that has one is Seashore who only got theirs in a trade several years ago. That isn't a TTC Witt car is it?
-Robert King
Toronto Witt #2778 is also at the Northern Ohio Railway Museum in Chippewa Lake, Ohio.
Frank Hicks
-Robert King
Frank Hicks
Besides TTC 2898 at Branford, we also have 1706, a 1913 half-convertible and 11, a 1933 replica of a 1880 horsecar.
We also have representation from North of the Border in
Passenger & Service Cars of other systems.
Check www.bera.org\collection
8-) ~ Sparky
P.S. 2898 is operational, but doen't come out much because she's a single ender (I got to run her backwards Member's day a couple of years ago).
That way the single end cars could be operated from Alex to Short Beach and double end cars from Sprague to Short Beach.
More variety for the visitors.
Just a thought.
Lack of high level platform is the reason. But that's why there is the one at Ave L.
Bill "Newkirk"
Look a the area currently, and look at pictures from the early days for a better overview.
If that evidence is still visiable after 20+ years, I don't know.
The grading may still exist, so no new grading might be necessary.
It's an idea, and somebody should consider it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe owned property cannot be arbitrarily confiscated as wetland.
When BERA purchased the propery from Connco in 1948 or abouts, there were no wetlands protection. How much of the acreage at Short Beach does the Association own?
I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, so I don't know all the legality here.
I ask the question as a possible addition.
It really does work that way, at least in CT. If I own property
that is classified as wetlands, or is adjacent to wetlands, I
must seek permission for any development that might impact
the wetlands. If that development involves filling wetlands,
permission is not likely to be granted.
We could probably re-connect the old ConnCo dump spur, because
that area was previously filled and used as a track. However,
that doesn't buy us much. To create a loop or wye, we'd have
to fill out in the marsh. Even though we own all of the marsh
in question, we still aren't allowed to do it.
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On a related subject, I wonder if there are any pieces of
Brooklyn single-truck cars in the basement of that housing
complex in Canarsie?
I have a couple of slightly better pictures of it here, though the page desperately needs to be reorganized.
What's scarier is what's on the destination sign! >>GG<<
But I *know* they're lacquer-based "silkscreen" ... I remember MANY of them when I worked Arnines being torn, broken, and leaning up against the bulbs ... once upon a time I actually had to *BREAK* the glass, and whip out "Mister Extinguisher" and USE it on the damned bulkhead. :(
I really *WISH* more foamers TRULY understood how *FRAGILE* history is ... and that lacquer is ***LONG*** out of "code date" ... I busted Steve 8th Avenue's chops over "leave it ALONE!" on 1689, and I love that guy like a BROTHER ... really. But it pained ME too ... bad enough the shop has to maintain an ME-23 brake valve ... or clean the commutators and brush out all that CARBON (not to mention pickup shoes) ... but it takes someone who really UNDERSTANDS the sanctity of traction still RUNNING to appreciate the "small chit."
THANKS for bringing up the point of "LEAVE IT THE HELL ALONE!" I wish others RESPECTED it, and folks like yourself didn't have to SAY it.
But they ARE precious, and DEMAND the respect for their age. Lacquer lasted 30-40 years ... time's up. :(
I wonder if 1689 has Jamaica - Parsons Blvd. bulkhead signs.
One of my R-1/9 curtains ripped a while back, but that was because a foreugn object fell in through the top. Luckily I was able to tape it back together.
Glad you were able to fix yours though, them puppies ARE delicate ...
MAYBE "museums" EVERYWHERE might take the trouble and time to print up (in COMPUTER TEXT, good ENOUGH!) everything that's ON the rollsigns. Folks twirl them in the first place to SEE what they get. Provide it by another means (maybe a poster, placard or handout availabel in a "pocket" at the sign) ... "here's what routes are on this rollsign, TAKE one!" as an option against rolling them to find out. Printed copies of what the "mystery meat" might be could serve well in continuing to PRESERVE fragile history ... just a thought - MOST people are plain curious and want to know "what's ON there" and a printout would likely suffice for most who DON'T have a "twirl the knob fetish" ... Dennis Rega probablyt already HAS his own knobs already *AND* is master of his domain. :)
-Robert King
Unfortunately, I never got to see the results of what was planned because the sign was never made; the price, even at cost, was bigger than $0, and the person wanting the custom rollsign made decided that that was too expensive and that there wasn't any chance they'd be able to bamboozle their way out of paying for it. I also don't think a bus rollsign would have been a good use of money anyway since there is only one TTC bus left that uses rollsigns where one could be loaded on fan trips, and it's probably been scrapped now anyways.
-Robert King
And what's with the side doors being open?:)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
17 River Street, East Haven, CT. www.bera.org
Wish there was some way to ride a Standard somehow (my favorite car) but I don't see this one every moving again, nevermind if Branford's curves could handle a 67 foot car.
When I was there in September, the car looked forlorn and in bad shape, as the elements take their toll. The SIRT car parked ahead of it looked even worse.
I would guess that 90 percent of Branford's 100 cars are either in a barn or have a heavy duty tarp over them. Steel cars were made to be kept outside AND lots of our visitors like to take photos of them. Also 2775 & SIRT 388 have been calked & sealed to keep the water out, but they need to be re-painted or covered very soon now.
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Well its more than the Shutdown Budget and hopefully the lack of $$ will postpone tower closures.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11172003.shtml#Stop
There may not be closings, but the maintenance required will not be done with less money. And Gunn, true to his style will be there to say, "told you so" when there's a big wreck because the tracks fell apart. Gunn has NEVER been a bullchitter, and he's a man of solid principle. Even the politicos realize this.
David Gunn for President in '04 and an (AA) in every garage!
David Gunn for President in '04 and an (AA) in every garage!
Still can't believe that they killed the AA though. :(
I *do* have personal nostalgics on the AA - My WAA for Wednesday and Thursday PM's was cutting B trains into a pair of AA's, and running a train in REVERSE for a few feet WAS fun. But as to routings, how many TPH and all that, it'd be wrong for me to get involved. I don't live in the city anymore and don't really know today's numbers. But I *will* say that if folks on CPW are underserved, the absence of the AA will be the reason why.
Back when AA's ran, they were just FOUR cars ... but they ran FREQUENTLY. Sounds like a cure, even if the TA doesn't want to bust trains in half and run four car sets. It was STILL a working solution if the problem is as bad as it's made to sound here. But I'll leave it there.
I read what you wrote about the rest of the worlds opinion about the USA. One aspect that continuously amazes us is that running the country is a job that doesnt require any experience, or competence.
Lets look at Britain. Whatever you may have thought about the various Prime Ministers, at least when they got the job, it was after working as an MP for a number of years, then being a minister for a while (so they learned how Whitehall worked), and then being elected to the top job in the party.
Lets see, Ahnold has had how much experience in Government, and hes now in charge of one of the largest states? A couple of years there, and he thinks he can run the country?
Hed probably be elected too, then G*d help us!
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Well we all know how certain polotical parties like to thwart the will of voters so if there will be any real changes it yet to be seen.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11172003.shtml#Transit
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If CSX really wants to improve they would lay off all the managers and start again by populating the upper ranks solely with former trainpersons.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11172003.shtml#CSXto
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) - Railroad company CSX Corp., which earlier this week announced it will cut up to 1,000 nonunion employees, recently agreed to buy $1 million worth of 2005 Super Bowl tickets.
The Super Bowl ticket deal would help the city prepare for the high-profile event and continue to show the Jacksonville-headquartered company's stewardship in the community, CSX Vice President Adam Hollingsworth said Wednesday.
The tickets were provided by an organization called Jacksonville XXXIX, which is selling corporate ticket packages to raise funds to finance improvements to Alltel Stadium before the championship game.
The company would use the tickets to entertain Fortune 500 clients and to reward employees, Hollingsworth said. He said that the company "had some tough choices to make this week."
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/MGAHS5DNYMD.html
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I think they are using the pneuamtic car retarders and switches from the recently closed second hump at Conway.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11172003.shtml#NSupgrading
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11172003.shtml#CSXCorman
Apparently it's too new to be listed at mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/aft/pa/pa_nyct.htm
www.forgotten-ny.com
I just found the MTA proposal to artists for the artwork at these stations
MTA proposal
If you call MTA Arts for Transit at 212-878-7250, I'm sure they'll help. Ask for Kendal Henry, who is involved with the 4 stations.
I guess somewhere in each of the stations there must be a plaque with the artist's name.
I noticed recently that at Prince Street a whole series of hats is appearing on the walls.
Frankly, I found the article to be a pretentious piece of drivel. It was titled "Art for Proletarians" and written by Barry Verstaendig.
"The subway stops of the N and R lines have been redone particularly well, giving one the impression that our city places an emphasis on providing culture to the working class as well as to the leisure class"
Gee he must be taking a class in socialism.
"Like all the stations along the line, a band of beige tiles surrounded with a brown border and green highlights runs along the entire length of the wall. The number "8" appears in white on a green background framed by a white square, which is surrounded by one more green layer. A smaller band of maroon and blue tiles runs along the bottom of the wall."
His description of the station tilework was breathtaking.
He particularly enjoyed the panel that showed Peter Cooper sitting on his throne overlooking Peter Cooper Park.
The warm tones of the buildings and trees make Peter Cooper look like a living god commanding his beloved school's neighborhod rather than a statue. Cooper Union, after all, stands for providing the opportunity of a free education to the working class people of the city. The immortalization in the subway stations proves that the proletarians of New York City appreciate what our school is giving to them.
I'm beginning to wonder if this is a tongue in cheek article.
I'm beginning to wonder if this is a tongue in cheek article<<<
Unfortunately it's probably not. From what I've heard many NYC college faculty members are pretty left of center and the kids are steeped in this sort of cant.
That'll get us on a non-transit tangent though...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't he was trying to make a general political statement, just express an appreciation for Peter Cooper's mission of providing a post-secondary education to those who may not otherwise receive one. It's a view most Cooper students share. That sentiment may have also helped the article's chances of being printed in the school newspaper ;).
I'm fairly certain it was meant to be neither pretentious nor tongue-in-cheek. I'll be seeing Barry tomorrow night, and I'll find out what his true intentions were.
Another couple of sentences that ticked me off was after he described some of the scenes depicted in the mosaics. He said:
"I must confess, though, that I prefer these idealized pictures to the real thing. The mosaics show a quiet city where the average working people enjoy thier high level of culture, which benefits from the diversity of its inhabitants"
You know him?? Where are you meeting him?? at the Haaarvard Club??
No, Red Square ;)
Thanks for the info. I thought I was either hallucinating or that the hats that I saw at Prince were some kind of temporary advertising last week.
However, I did discover a really subtle art installation at Prince Street yesterday. At first glance, only new white tile appears. But a closer examination reveals a randomly placed set of flat head phillips screws set in the wall each numbered.
Interesting Installation at Prince Street
Sorry about your mother, though.
My mom broke her hip almost five years ago at the same age. She was operated on and made a decent recovery where she was able to go with the aid of a walker until the dementia has attacked her and now she is wheel chair bound, but its 5 years later.
Her sister who is 88 just broke her hip in LA where she has lived for 33 years. She was operated on and went to rehab. She had some setbacks due to other medical conditions but is now at the rehab center and will be making a full recovery.
The biggest battle you'll have is being sure she doesn't become depressed and give up hope. Keep encouraging her by telling her she's improving and will be going home soon. Also visit her quite often and get other friends and family to visit. But try to stagger the visiting times so she is kept occupied more of the day. Time hangs heavy on those in hospitals and rehab center. Anything you can do to make the day go faster is a good thing.
Hang in there and stay strong. Take everything on a day to day basis so you don't go crazy.
You'll see she'll be home before you know it.
If the 7 pulls into Track 2 (the track with the wall on the right and platform to the left, the C/R has to change cars and open the doors.
If the 7 pulls into Track M, the C/R opens the doors on the right, and then goes to open the ones on the left after.
If the 7 pulls into Track 1 (the track with the platform on the right and wall on the left), the C/R opens the doors on the right.
Whichever side the doors open at Shea Stadium will be the same side that will open at Main (if the train arrives on Track M). This may or may not happen when the train goes on Track 1 or 2, since the C/R may have to open doors on a different side.
Hope this explains everything.
That's what makes the most sense, but that's not what happens. I take the <7> every morning out of Main Street. EVERY train that comes into Main Street is a local, so the doors will have opened on the left side at Willets Point. But with every train that comes into Track M, the doors open on the right side first, which is also where 98% of the straphangers are waiting to pile on.
In fact, right now, let me extend my original question: When a train is LEAVING a terminal from the middle track, which doors are the C/R supposed to close first? On the Times Square-bound <7>, since the Willets Point platform will be on the left, it would make sense for the C/R to close the doors on the right side first, and then move to the left side so that he wouldn't have to change cars a THIRD time before arriving at Willets Point. But it's always the opposite that happens!
How would the C/R know which side has less passengers? Let's see....
A) He's in radio contact with the dispatchers at Main Street.
B) The T/O calls back to him while entering the station.
C) He looks out his cab window on one side while entering the station, then goes to the cab on the other side (in the next car) and looks out the window there, figures out which side has less people, and positions himself in the appropriate cab.
D) None of the above.
If there's a way for the C/R to know which side has less people waiting, it really would make sense for him to open that side first. But since (at least as far as I know) the answer to the above is D, how WOULD a C/R know which side has less people?
Enjoy,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Well, today at church the youth Choir sang a song called My Redeemer Lives, synced to a video that posted the words for the congregation to sing along with. (This, by the way, is not "your father's worship service." It can get pretty up and raucus --- especially for here in the uptight Southern Baptist south.) In the middle of the video accompaniment what comes up on the screen but a NYC express subway train roaring through the station!
The first time it shot by so fast that I couldn't even really get a good look at it to see what it was....other than to notice that it's definitely NYC livery. The second time the picture came up in the video I was ready for it: I turned to my wife and said excitedly, "Look, hon....an R62 on the Westwide IRT line -- either a 2 or 3 train (according to the red dot and its running on express track)." I can probably bet that I was the only person in that congregation of 500 near Richlands, Virginia who new that; but - on the same token (pun intended) -- such knowledge would have been like saying one's ABCs for people on this site. Perhaps that's why I love it so much, and spend so much time keeping up with all of your postings.
But, anyway, I digress.
It got me to thinking tonight. Let's see if we can come up with remembered times that subways have unexpectedly appeared in various media forms. How many can you name? I wonder how many TV commercials or programs, movie clips, music videos, and so on we can remember in which one of our beloved NYC Subways has made a "guest appearance" -- if even only for a brief moment of time.
No to what? I didn't say it was not an R-62A, I said it was not a 2 train.
Redbird 6 Train during the opening theme on FELICITY..
R32/38 Side view in a promo stillshot of FELICITY..
R32/38 used in the FELICITY episode when she gets stuck in subway.
Yes, I watch that show..... brahs.
The steel belt lines were all replaced with stainless steel. It was reported here that two NYCT R-44's have stainless steel bands.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Apparently, you have to be an overpaid Post reporter!
I agree with you. One of Bob's problems appears to be an inability to work together with other people. He has to fix that.
A couple of the "they're trying to drive me out of Brooklyn" folks post here (according to Bob) and are also active in other musuems.
Ask them and you get a totally different spin on the problems.
I'm sitting in Baltimore, so it's not like I have "breaking news".
It's sad to see the possibility of streetcars again in Brooklyn fail.
Bill "Newkirk"
Frank Hicks
It is the Post; he could have said, facetiously, "yesterday," and the author substituted "today." Then again, maybe today is his deadline :(.
Only the Shaker Heights PCCs are in the Navy Yard. The cars in question are probably the three MBTA PCCs and the 1897 Oslo car, which are still on the pier in Red Hook. Those cars can't easily be moved, either; when the pier was rammed by a barge, the track leading out of the barn was badly undermined.
He also said something else interesting "I'd love to make them available ..."
The "other" group is NOT dealing with NYC DOT which may give them a better chance of making a go of it as nycDOT hasn't been doing too well with it's re-developemnt ventures of late ... I'm thinking of two in Brooklyn, both rail related, one adding, the other subtracting.
I wonder how they are going to provide rush hour service? Will supervisory people run the subways?
"For comparison T maintenance workers are paid about U.S.$26 per hour. "
What's the exchange rate these days? To be equivalent, wouldn't the Montreal folks have to make about 30 Canadian dollars per hour? I don't recall Montreal being cheaper to live in than Boston, but I could be wrong. Isn't the Canadian income tax higher?
That sucks...
Man, what are you smoking? Montreal and NY costing the same to live in?? Not Even Close!
You can get a huge 4 1/2 apartment in a nice part of the city for under $600 a month, and a decent house in the suburbs for around $150,000 - $175,000.
It's also a false argument to convert Canadian wages into US dollars, since the expenses are also incurred in Canadian dollars. Food and clothing is more expensive in Montreal but housing is significantly cheaper. I know. I lived there for 18 years before moving to Toronto and then New York. What we pay $1500 a month for in Queens would be under $600 in Montreal.
Income is taxed at about 40%-50% for top-earning workers (about the same as NYC, if not maybe a bit lower), and the sales tax at the cash register works out to about 15% if memory serves (I think Quebec is still 8% Provincial tax). Gas is expensive as hell, and forget about drowining your sorrows -- beer and booze is nasty.
Still, earning $23 an hour in Canada is a decent wage. I made about that for many years in Toronto (where the costs of living are significantly higher) and I did OK. If I had Montreal's housing costs, I could live **very** well on $23/hr.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
Dennis
(remember me from HOSARC?)
Currency Converter
What Happens to $100 Bill Put Into a Metrocard Machine?
Robert
That reminds me of the irritating machines in Rome. They only give 2 Euros change. The price of a weekly ticket is 12 Euros 40. If you put in 15 Euros, it will spit your money out of you. I'd rather it charged me the extra 60 cents to avoid queueing.
Forgive my ignorance, but is a bill returned through the same slot as it is put in? If not, and there is a separate bill return slot, is jamming that slot a scam similar to the jamming of the coin return slots on the public telephones?
It's his own fault, unless the machine's notice that it doesn't accept higher than a 20 was not readablle for some reason.
On another note, my father is the only person I know who actually buys $80 cards. Everyone else I know buys $10 cards or less, or unlimiteds.
1) the machines are not programed to take $100 dollar bills.
2) the maximum value on a metro card (with the 20% bonus is 99.99)
a $100 dollar bill would make it $100 + $20 dollar bonus ($120.00)
which is not allowed .
NOTE :
even if you buy the minimum $94.00 giving back $6 dollars change
would be $ 94.00 + 18.80 bonus ( 112.80) still over $99.99 limit
REMEMBER ALSO :S/A at the booth can not change a $100.00 bill
unless you spend $70.00 or more( 30 day card)
SO BRING SMALLER CHANGE PLEASE?????
Maybe the machines should be reconfigured to give up to $16.68 in change. Then $100 bills would be no problem.
1. Someone jammed the return slot
2. The machine miss-read the bill as a ten or twenty
Question: Have the machines been fixed to SEE the new 20s ? i.e. the machine is looking at specific parts of the bill, so once it sees the begining at a specific loaction should be Pres. Jackson's face ... opps it ain't there anymore :-( And what are all those little 20s all ove the place, graffitti ?
VC Madman
To be sure, I'd be more than willing to have Boston's new situation here in SEPTA's tunnels where there are no musicians and until recently there was an active policy of arresting them.
Mark
"Attention! Attention! Al Qaeda on the mezzanine. Please exit down the tracks."
Give me a break.
--Z--
Mark
I do wonder if there's a positive or negative coorelation of these performers to crime? Problem is there would be too many outside factors to get a good answer i guess. They aren't going to play in stations where there aren't any riders hanging at.
Less than 50% of the subway performers are competent musicians. The rest shouldn't be performing for the general public and would get tossed out of any private location they performed in. Unfortunately, the T can't take the time to audition some of these clowns, but if the crowd generally moves away from the performer and his hat is always empty, he shouldn't be there.
I will miss the brass quartet that used to show up at Back Bay and other places around Christmas. It's a shame that the excellent magician won't be able to play his low-key jazz in the background. The kid, Dan, quoted in the article is a young talented singer-guitarist and is just the type that should be in the subway for entertainment. He does need a little amplification and has always balanced it so not to be too loud.
While my opinions are subjective, I have more of a background than most. For 20 years I made my living as a musician. The next 10 as a concert engineer. Now, I'm the guy who has to make them turn down when they're too loud or boot them out when they start to openly booze it between songs. I hope my employers find a nice balance.
So how close are you to retirement, it takes at least 2-3 years at the T to become a supervisor and you'd have to have some serious seniority to hold the job you do now. Tell me cuz I want a union job too. AEM7
-Robert King
"Less than 50% of the subway performers are competent musicians. The rest shouldn't be performing for the general public and would get tossed out of any private location they performed in. Unfortunately, the T can't take the time to audition some of these clowns, but if the crowd generally moves away from the performer and his hat is always empty, he shouldn't be there. "
Unless the MBTA institutes a fair and consistent auditioning policy, it's not your business, or anyone else's, to decide which musician is competent or not, and who should be where.
And you can vote with your spare change as to who should be playing in the wubway and who shouldn't.
Mark
Look, I hate country music, but would never even think of asking a performer to leave because he's playing, "You're Cheating Heart!"
Fair and consistent is not necessary. MBTA stops is private property, and is governed by MA by-laws including one which authorizes the removal of disorderly or noisy persons. The same MA by-law also authorizes any official of the transit authority to determine who is disorderly or noisy.
AEM7
Incorrect on your part. Arbitrary and uneven application is subject to lawsuits, which MBTA will lose.
MBTA can ban everyone from playing music in its stations. Or it can ban no one. Or it can set a consistent policy and subject everyone to it. If it does not, citizens have legal means for relief.
MBTA property is private only in a narrow sense. The subway is a public resource.
MBTA has never lost a lawsuit on arbitrary or uneven application of rules, except in cases where the uneven application is based on race, and even in those cases the MBTA has lost only about 50% of all cases brought to trial.
Unless you have actually read trial transcripts or decisions, you are presenting a popular (that is, non-expert) opinion with no basis of support.
you are presenting a popular (that is, non-expert) opinion with no basis of support.
You appear to have no problem with presenting such opinion, and believe such opinion should form the basis of legislative decisions through your input to the relevant policymaker.
OK. You have two cases of employee-employer conflict. How does this directly pertain to public citizens of varying musical ability playing music on T property?
"You appear to have no problem with presenting such opinion,"
I was referring to your knowledge of court decisions regarding musicians, which you have none, obviously. I have no problem presenting advocacy to public policy makers. An example of such would be: "I advocate that MBTA's failure to consistently and fairly apply policy to its customers and public citizens result in disciplinary action against MBTA decision-makers." This is my right (and yours).
www.forgotten-ny.com
One Week Delay
There was also an article today listing some of the people who were protesting the new rules.
Criticism of New Rules
Second. Will the cars always have the ability to run on non CBTC tracks?
I have seen in the Washington Metro that an operator is able to override the automatic control and operate manually.
I'm assuming that is being done right now on the Canarsie line to operate the trains with the current signal system.
Suppose the Canarsie line gets its CBTC fully operational in 10 years or so. Suppose a set of R143 cars had to be transferred to Coney Island Yard over the current signal system. I assume the train can be operated in fully manual mode.
It's a few years back, but I'll trust it. Many WMATA trains, to my knowledge are now being manually controlled due to excessive overruns.
I would not expect WMATA to go to communication based train control any time soon. The newest section of the system is less then 3 years old and the next segment to come on line in the with in the next 2 years will use the same train control hardware.
WMATAs overrun troubles are mostly related to lack of maintaining the train control to the manufactures specs. When WMATA stopped running 8 car trains they had no way of knowing how far there train control equipment had drifted away from manufactures specs. When all of the there train control equipment is properly calibrated both wayside and onboard the General Railway Signal implementation of Automatic Train Control system can birth trains within 6" + - of the programmed birthing point at the Platform be it a 2, 4, 6, or 8 car train. It is also designed operate the system at 90 second headways.
If you ask me a better investment would be to bring the existing infrastructure up proper standards then to throughout the existing
train control system for CBTC.
John
On the cars I was in and played with prior to "acceptance" the CBTC/ATO bay was empty, and everything was set up in full manual mode. After the toys are added and cut in, I don't see that changing since the control panels were clearly setup to allow "manual override" or those switches wouldn't be there in the first place. Hope this helps. :)
Firm hires ex-congressman to push national maglev system
Sunday, November 16, 2003
A businessman and former congressman from Brighton has joined a small transportation and energy company with a big idea: Revolutionize mass transit with a nationwide network of high-speed trains that ride on a cushion of air and generate their own, pollution-free energy.
....
The cost to implement such a system nationwide would be huge - an estimated $6 million per mile, or $328 billion if implemented following the U.S. interstate highway system. But the approach Chrysler and others are pushing would be far less expensive than the few existing or already proposed maglev systems, because it would use existing freeways' right-of-way.
As a comparison, one proposed system that would connect Baltimore with Washington, D.C., planned for the year 2012, has a price tag of $3.5 billion for the 36-mile route, which comes to $92 million per mile.
.......
Vehicles would drive onto a "ferry," stationed at interchanges much the same as they do presently with car ferries that cross water. Both driver and passengers would enjoy a safe ride at speeds up to 300 mph. Riders would enter their personalized destinations into a computer, using the Internet.[what? huh? I hope this is enclosed, because my car ain't going to make it to 300mph.]
.....
from Michigan of all places
300mph, train or plane, wow what a "tough" choice.
The problem is not being able to put it on the Interstate but where are the stops going to be? Once I exit this bullet train, I'm in the middle of nowhere? OH ..I'm sure the highway and turnpike authorities are just giddy with the fact that a heavy tain will now run side by side with cars, trucks and buses.
>>>>>But the approach Chrysler and others are pushing would be far less expensive than the few existing or already proposed maglev systems, because it would use existing freeways' right-of-way.<<<<<
Chrysler is pushing this because they know it won't happen but will end up diverting more funds to highway construction which is what they want all along.
>>>>Vehicles would drive onto a "ferry," stationed at interchanges much the same as they do presently with car ferries that cross water. Both driver and passengers would enjoy a safe ride at speeds up to 300 mph.<<<<
This is a dream. There is no way you're going to get anyone to ride in a 300 mph bullet train on an elevated highway with cars, trucks and buses. Way too dangerous.
When they say along the Interstate ROW, they mean on the property occupied by the Interstate, not on the roadbed being used by vehicular traffic.
I have been looking at our Interstate ROW out here... you can see places where the line would have to be elevated 20 to 50 feet, just to eliminate some of the grades. There are also places where it may have to cut across privately owned land to eliminate some of the sharper curves, to to gain access to a more appropriate station site.
Elias
I have been looking at our Interstate ROW out here... you can see places where the line would have to be elevated 20 to 50 feet, just to eliminate some of the grades.
Grades are far less of a problem with maglev, what with no steel-on-steel friction to maintain.
Read the full article, linked at the bottom of the original post. You will see that Chrysler is not the car co, but rather a person.
Dandy. I'm not moving to Baltimore for this.
I myself still see the Auto Train concept as a strictly vacationer-based mode, certainly not for commuters or business travel. Besides, if the trains are fast enough, there would be no real need for ferrying cars.
So was there a station at 38/6 or wasn't there?
I wouldn't be surprised ;-)
Bit odd that it's on the 1939 map then.
It's especially odd considering demolition of the entire structure started in 1938 :)
Theory:
- 1893 is a typo for 1938.
- It's on the 1939 map because some cartographer forgot to remove it.
By the way, that 1920 track map still has a problem. It appears to be impossible for a northbound 3rd Av. local to stop at 129th St. and then continue north to the Bronx.
Thanks,
Bob Sklar
But I thought at one time the service pattern called for all locals to terminate at 129th while local expresses continued north and made all stops north of 129th, and thru expresses made express stops from end to end. An express platform was later constructed.
Am I correct?
One volume was the Manhattan street railway network. The second was the elevateds. Not sure what the third volume had, never got that one.
West Farms Yard was an elevated yard that sat to the east side of the elevated structure, just southof where the 2/5 lines curve toward 180th Street nowadays. There are photos of the trains stored there in the above mentioned publication.
It also shows on a 1929 IRT section feeder map.
It's entirely possible (though I don't know it for a fact) that the station closed and later reopened. This was not unknown. Dean Street station, among others, was closed by the BRT for a while in an attempt to reduce agents and increase speeds. It was later reopened before it met its final fate.
There was no station there previously.
The stations at 18th St and 28th St were also later additions, both
dating from 1887 according to old notes of mine (not sourced).
Joe Brennan
We all know that before the Dual Contracts, the station now known as Essex Street on the Nassau Street line was called Delancey Street and it was the terminal for BMT trains coming off the Willie B.
My question is: Were there ever any tile mosaics saying "Delancey Street" and if so, are any still visible today?
Thanks.
wayne
They kinda haven't done anything since at least July, but It's already completely gone out of the track wall at the end of the station, and the fare control area is also loosing the "blue stuff". I hope they give Essex a grecian design like they gave Fulton and Broad.
I didn't see red markings along the wall in July when I took those photos, but I vaguely remember the markings you are talking about the last time I went through there a few weeks ago, but didn't get off there.
Here's another from July. It appears they are leaving space for new mosaic tablets.
I have some questions about its appearance, and its future:
What color was the external route display?
What was the glowing yellow strip above the roll-sign on the front?
Was there any vandalism on it? I noticed someone did scratchitti on the glass panel perpendicular to the doors on the R110A.
Finally, whatever happened to the TA's plan to take the R110B out on the C train?
Julian
Wow, I didn't know they ran the R-110B on the K line from 207th Street to Rockaway Parkway! :)
Seriously, I guess it's possible to get from CPW to Canarsie afterall, although I doubt they'd call it "L". Start on the CPW Line via B/D line West 4th St to Broadway-Lafayette to Essex to Broadway Junction to Canarsie....bingo something blue on the Canarsie Line....
If anyone knows what all the RS readings are, please post.
If you are referring to the side LCD signs, they bear resemblance to the side signs on the R44 and R46 cars, except they could hold more characters (about 20, excluding the route).
PIC FOLLOWS
[What was the glowing yellow strip above the roll-sign on the front?]
That's the train identifier. It has space for five characters, the first being the route letter, and the remaining four being the time that the train left the terminal.
I once saw a picture of it with this sign saying:
R0110
I guess for a promotional shot or something.
All of the LCD signs were of the same style, with the glowing yellow background of the R44/46 LCD signs, but the format of the LCD signs on cars 3007-3009 displayed characters in a mosaic style (polygons forming the characters), whereas the others had the dot-matrix style.
The LED strip maps were for the A line, with the Far Rockaway and Lefferts Blvd branches in different colors (red and green), and the Rockaway Park service did not have any LED's for them. Instead, it was inserted like an advertisment. This branch carried the purple color.
[Was there any vandalism on it? I noticed someone did scratchitti on the glass panel perpendicular to the doors on the R110A.]
I think the last time I was on it (about 3 years ago!) there was some scratchitti on the windows.
As for the future of it, only time will tell. Though I doubt it will run again.
LCD side signs (a first for the IRT)
The LCD signs also had an interesting feature in them. The Route portion could display the route, shown in a circle or a diamond. This feature is similar to the end signs on the R142 cars.
Train ID signs:
These, IIRC, were located at the base of the window opposite the operating position. Unlike the R110B, the R110A's ID sign was an LED sign.
Interior signs:
Again, LED signs as opposed to LCD signs. They also had an interesting feature not replicated on the R142's: the LED signs displayed a serif font instead of a sans-serif font (Comparison: This is Times New Roman, a serif font. This is Arial, a sans-serif font.) Both the train ID signs, and Interior signs displayed text using a serif font.
The time, in both the R110A and R110B interior signs, was displayed on the left-hand side of the display. Every 20 minutes on the R110B cars, an announcement would be heard, announcing the time (selected from the phrases "It is (hour) o'clock," "It is 20 past (hour)," or "It is 20 to (next hour)." The announcements were made based on a 12-hour clock, despite the fact that the time was displayed on a 24-hour clock (commonly called "military time," despite the fact that certain "civilian" organizations use it).
The end route sign was different between the two cars, also. The R110A could be considered the first "red-eyed rocket," with its red LED sign, which displayed the inverse of the bullet (i.e. a red 2 in a black circle, on a red background). The R110B had the traditional rollsign.
The R110A and the R110B are not the official contract numbers for these cars. The R110 contract was for the study and development of the cars, not the actual construction. The official names are as follows: R110A=R130, R110B=R131.
Also, another note on the R110B. Sometimes, the interior sign would display two parts of a station's name on two different lines, like this:
THIS ISBROADWAYNASSAU ST
They also displayed no indication of route, and the text was left-justified, as you see it there.
As for what the mosaic font looked like, I will refer you to this picture for now, and I'll have something else later.
Also, i need to order a metrocard, put a $4 balance on it, and have it mailed here (another part of above christmas present project)... problem is, i'm in atlanta, and don't know who to contact to do this.
If anyone knows, could you let me know? I've checked the MTA's site, but can find no e-mail address, just phone numbers.
If you can pick up metrocards, post here or email me. I'd be *very* grateful. Thanks...
* ryan
http://www.itsmarta.com
The Atlanta Belt Line Transit Project
MARTA's fare system is based on a combo of tokens and cards... tokens are $1.75 (pay on entry only) and cards are weekly and monthly, all unlimited ride. sometimes for conventions and stuff they do weekend passes, but they usually only sell them at airport station as conventioneers fly in.
MARTA just awarded a $104 million dollar contract to Cubic Systems for a new fare system. it's supposedly going to be card-only, using proximity readers rather than something that you run the card through. which will be nice. the fare system's 25 years old this year. my station usually only has 1-2 working turnstiles for those of us with cards.
* ryan
token machines
turnstiles
from a project i did last year.
A Citizen's Guide to MARTA
* ryan
Care to elaborate a bit?
If he elaborates, and his girlfriend happens to read the board, then it wouldn't be much of a surprise, would it? :)
she lost hers earlier this fall, and it was a sentimental thing, and she was pretty unhappy about it. so i found another MTA metrocard holder on eBay (finally, since i've been looking since august) and now i need a metrocard with 2 rides (so the one i give her at christmas can be used when we come back) and a few discarded ones so i can give her one that's been through the system like we were.
that's the story... any extra discarded cards would be for a scrapbook of NYC stuff that we did / saw. can anyone help?
* ryan
for (1) SouthFerry (9):
puede elaborar, el yeh... que es muy inverosmil que ella lo encontrar, especialmente con la tarifa del volumen de ventas de este tablero en mensajes... cuando visitamos NYC adentro puede, conseguimos sostenedores del metrocard del MTA (del museo) para los metrocards de una semana, y utilizado les para sostener nuestros transcards de MARTA despus de que consiguiramos caseros (solamente el metrocard, como la carpeta, era sentimental, as que estaba siempre all con el MARTAcard). ella perdi el suyo anterior esta cada, y era una cosa sentimental, y ella era bastante infeliz sobre ella. encontr tan otro sostenedor del metrocard del MTA en eBay (finalmente, puesto que he estado mirando desde agosto) y ahora necesito un metrocard con 2 paseos (as que el que la doy en Navidad puede ser utilizado cuando nos volvemos) y algunos desecharon unos as que puedo darle uno que se est a travs del sistema como ramos. sa es la historia... que cualquier tarjeta desechada adicional estara para un libro de recuerdos de la materia de NYC que lo hicimos/sierra. puede cualquier persona ayudar?
(not that i speak spanish, but i know babelfish)
* ryan
Me too, when I find Metrocards I need, I usually clean them with mild dish detergent. Since you don't know where they've been, you gotta clean them. One time I used windex to clean them, but one had the ink printing wiped out, so I switched to the dish detergent. Luckily it wasn't a rare one !
Bill "Newkirk"
FYI, The TA actually put some thru a washing machine as a test.
* ryan
Dunno about Atlanta, but I was really surprised at the number of skells I saw in Los Angeles last fall. Pershing Square downtown was basically a skell bedroom/restroom, and MacArthur Park (which was not melting in the dark) was chock-full of them too.
new trains are blue and grey inside. suppose that makes them "modern." at least the AC traction does.
* ryan
* ryan
Okay, let's get that straight: the Barnet branch will only have Charing X service; the Edgware branch will only have Bank service. The places you can change for the other branch are Camden Town and Euston. Oh and please don't change trains at Camden Town or Euston.
Oh and for added fun...
Long Term Travel Changes
CAMDEN TOWN STATION: On Saturdays, no down escalators between 1000 and 1700, access will be via a spiral staircase. On Sundays, the station is exit only from 1300 until 1730 for crowd control.
If anyone has the unit # of the 95 stock DM that lost its blind end,
please pass it along.
thanks,
wayne
I'm just waiting for it to be made permanent and the Charing X branch cut back to Kennington and given its own identity.
That would be a waste of the well designed junctions at Camden Town, and it would inconvenience about 50% of the passengers who would have to change at one of those two crowded stations. The main advantage would be greater operational simplicity, possibly allowing more trains to run, as in Moscow or Paris.
Looking at this site, it seems that the Edgware and Barnet branches each get 20 TPH max, and the Charing Cross and Bank branches each get 20 TPH max, so that there is (or was) an equal split between all four routes. 20 TPH is not a high frequency compared with some other tube lines.
South of Kennington the symmetry is lost, and I think that more trains continue to Morden than terminate at Kennington, reflecting a greater demand for Morden trains. Morden needs more trains than either Edgware or Barnet, and I see that as another weakness of the "separate lines" plan.
Paris can cope with branching on lines 7 and 13. Frequencies are very high in rush hour on the 7 at least.
The rush hour service pattern I'd like to see (without building anything), would be:
12tph Morden - Bank - Edgware or Golder's Green
8tph Morden - Bank - Finchley Central or Archway
4tph Morden - Bank - Mill Hill East
12tph Kennington - Charing X - Edgware
12tph Kennington - Charing X - High Barnet
With building a few lines:
12tph Epsom - Morden - Bank - Edgware
12tph Sutton - Morden - Bank - Archway
12tph Streatham - Kennington - Charing X - Edgware - Watford
12tph Streatham - Kennington - Charing X - High Barnet
12tph Moorgate - Finsbury Pk - Edgware - Watford
12tph Moorgate - Finsbury Pk - Alexandra Palace
That seems a good plan to me, given the loop terminal and cross-platform transfers at Kennington. Based on the relative ease with which people and trains can transfer, let the trains change at Camden Town and let the people change at Kennington!
Your extension of the Charing Cross branch to Streatham is interesting, but I think that area might be better served by the Victoria line. I have heard of a plan to extend the Victoria line to a loop terminal at Herne Hill, to increase its capacity.
Your extensions of the Morden line to Epsom and Sutton would make that line rather long, with an awful lot of stops.
Your Northern Heights line from Moorgate is a separate issue from the Northern line, but I think some rights of way still exist.
On this map, I had the Northern Line extended to Brixton, Brixton Hill, Streatham Hill and Streatham, then taking over the West Croydon/Sutton Line. Thing is, Sutton to Leicester Square would be 18 stops, which seems a lot, but start at Upminster, and you've only reached Aldgate East after the same number. After 18 stops from West Ruislip, Tottenham Court Road is finally reached, but what if you are working in the City?
Bottom line (sorry for the pun) is that 18 stops from these stations may seem miserable BUT you will ALWAYS have a seat in the morning, and you won't need to do battle at the terminals to get to where you really need to go.
I do find the constant barrage of noises that you get on trains these days to be extremely irritating. Its too loud to shut out, and after many stops it gets too much.
Take the CP-Tulse Hill-London Bridge service. It ran every 30 minutes during the peaks, along with a 30 minute Sutton-Mitcham-Tulse Hill and a 30 minute Croydon-Thornton Heath-Tulse Hill service. In theory, this gave a train every ten minutes from Tulse Hill to London Bridge, but in practice, one summer when I did this route daily for three months (1987 I think) there was literally a one in three chance of a cancellation between 08:00 and 08:30, and so to get to work on time, I had to leave for an earlier train (in fact, the Northern Line was so bad at the time, I had to aim for the earlier train still to be sure).
Now to move out into the Styx a bit. A cancellation at North Dulwich means a delay by 10 minutes, but a cancellation at Gypsy Hill means a delay by 30 minutes, and with a 1 in 3 chance of this happening, thats quite often.
So, who, then would commute to Gypsy Hill to London Bridge via the Tulse Hill route? People with the types of job where being 30 minutes late once or twice a week doesn't matter (not me at the time unfortunately), and early risers who enjoy sitting on railway stations. No wonder the trains were always empty until Tulse Hill.
Same problems on the Wimbledon Line I guess, except worse because at least if there is trouble at Crystal Palace, there are other routes to take. People at St Helier would not be so lucky.
Also the timetabling is so slack that I once worked out that If the District was extended to Morden South and the Northern to Morden South and Sutton, then Morden South to Blackfriars via District Line would actually be slightly quicker than was currently on offer (despite 21 versus 12 stops) and the Northern Line route to London Bridge much much faster.
All in all, the Sutton Line was a disaster, but that doesn't mean that the potential is not there. Empty trains can simply be a sign of incompetence. Hands-off tramlink supporters!
Better still, give people in Sutton a choice of two routes: District to Tower Hill or Northern via Bank.
All in all, the Sutton Line was a disaster, but that doesn't mean that the potential is not there. Empty trains can simply be a sign of incompetence. Hands-off tramlink supporters!
I say kill the Wimbledon branch of Tramlink and run Edgware Road - West Croydon District Line trains.
Don't tell the tram fans though. They seem to want to convert everything to light rail, and get very upset at people who don't agree that trams are the answer to everything. [Ever read Tramways magazine, very thin but always good for a laugh.]
Even then it's relatively low frequency stuff at Versailles-Chantiers.
The Charing X branch really needs to be totally independent South of Camden Town. The Streatham extension from the 30's provides a perfect excuse...
It seems that one of the benefits of the PPP is yet another layer of bureaucracy that has to be satisfied before trains can run again.
Even so, one could have light green on one branch whhilst the other remains black.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
But the problem wasn't your normal, "no bills" , "exact change only" problem. The machine could not boot.
Much to my astonishment, the MVM's run Windows. I'd thought they ran some sort of Proprietary POS (Point of Sale) software, and a boot ROM for an OS. The MVM's run Windows NT, which is a very secure, stable, and networkable OS.
Here are some pics of the Malfunctioning MVM, which was of the credit card only variety. The computer cannot boot because a file or folder is missing.
Here's the MVM:
And here's a readout of the screen:
If you'd like to see the MVM in question, it's at 23rd street on the 6 line, on the Uptown side. I saw it at 7:45 AM, took a pic, didn't like it, and went back to take more pics at 12:30 PM. It was still broken. I'll let you know when I go back at 4 PM, if it's still broken. They need an IT guy to fix it.
Linux and Unix crash, but you really have to work at it.
As to signaling systems, remember the entire CXS system went down due to one of the virus outbreaks.
and, Billy keeps laughing as the bucks roll in.
98 collapses easily under pressure, and has memory leaks
NT is better, but suffers from the blue screen too often
ME no experience
2000 getting better. Can stay up for weeks at a time
XP seems to be quite reliable. Dont have sufficient info yet
But the winner by a huge margin:
Linux (RH 7.1) Up for over a year, running a web server and Gimps in the background, so the processor was running flat out. The end failure was hardware: the building that contains the machine has terrible power, and the battery in the UPS system died.
I would never put anything that was life-mission critical, such as a signalling system on any operating system that came out of Redmond.
And I'm a novice at this stuff. You'd think I would have crashed the thing by now.
I have had Mac OSX for almost a year (11 months), and it's crashed requiring a restart once. I ran it for 7 consecutive days without powering off, logging out, or restarting once. By the 7th day though, the swap files and RAM were very fragmented, and I finally restarted it.
My XP box was just up for over 60 days, running SETI and many other things 24/7. I only rebooted it because I made some software updates.
One OS you did not review, Windows 95 with several patches and Winsock 2.0 SDK -- stable as rock. Ran it in college for years as combined workstation/webserver, average time between crashes is something like once every 90 days, and some of that is likely attributable to cooling problem with hardware (K6-233).
XP crashes with many multimedia apps. Box here quite stable but that is because it is never used.
AEM7
MS has no control over what applications and other hardware you might add to your box. Usually, instability is imported into an MS system by fluky hardware/software.
Elias
I have had an XP box for a month, and it hasnt crashed yet (I have had to reboot 4 times in the month to install Microsoft security updates).
It took a few years to notice the problem, because making it all the way to 49.7 days was so rare. :)
-Robert King
Strictly speaking, signalling isn't a real time problem. 'Real time' is usually defined as dealing with processes that require subsecond timing and/or determinstic response times. Signalling doesn't really require either: it doesn't matter all that much if an interlocking takes a few more seconds here and there to clear a routing.
Microsoft software is, of course, entirely unsuited to vital tasks (which signalling most certainly is) because of reliability and stability problems.
Seriously, they used to run IBM OS/2,
it is so out of favor that it makes it so very secure .... yuck !
Some new information has come to light over the Kursk disaster. For those with short attention spans, the Kursk was the submarine that blew up and sank in the Artic Ocean killing all 118 on board. The Russians tried to blame the incident on a collision with an unidentified object. However, sonar tapes, which recorded the blasts (a small one at first, then a much larger one two minutes later), cast doubt on these claims. A whistle blower within the Russian military has leaked that the crew of the Kursk was testing a new type of torpedo when the accident occurred. It seemed very likely that the test didnt go quite as planned.
While rescue efforts to save the survivors of the Kursk failed, salvage crews were able to recover a Black Box from the submarine, which contained detailed accounts of the events leading up to the explosion. As luck would have it, we got a copy of those tapes.
It turns out that the submarine crew was trying to load Microsoft Windows on their fire control computer. Their intent was to replace the aging CP/M operating system with the flashier Windows OS.
Apparently, the Russians didnt know about the legendary stability problems exhibited by Windows. The log tapes make this painfully obvious:
Captain: Is the new fire control Windows OS installed yet Comrade?
Seaman: Almost Sir. We just need to finish filling out the registration card.
Captain: Excellent. Soon we will be able to point and click our enemies into oblivion.
[Evil laughter in background]
Seaman: Comrade Captain! It is booting! Look, it says, Preparing to run Windows for the first time.
[Long pause]
Seaman: Arrgh! Sir, it wants me to reboot again. That makes the 27th time.
Captain: Hmmm. This is not encouraging. Go ahead and reboot again.
Seaman: Aye Sir.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: Captain, it is up again. It says it found new hardwareA CD-ROM drive and that it needs drivers.
Captain: Where are the drivers?
Seaman: On the CD-ROM.
Captain: You are joking, right?
Seaman: No Sir.
Captain: Reboot the damn thing again. I am starting not to like this Windows.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: Sir! It is back! It says it found the Gorby2000 Torpedo and is looking for the device drivers. Do we have a driver disk?
Captain: I do not think so.
Seaman: I will tell it to use the default drivers.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: Crap. It wants to reboot again.
Captain: How many times are we going to reboot today? This is taking forever. Our hull is going to rust out before this works.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: Sir! It is up and this time it is not asking for anything!
Captain: Really? No device drivers? No registration cards? No user profiles?
Seaman: No Sir. I think it is ready.
Captain: Good work comrade. Now click on the fire control icon and let us see how this works.
Seaman: Clicking now, Sir.
[Another long pause]
Captain: Why does the fire control screen have a dancing paper clip on it?
Seaman: I have no idea Sir.
Captain: Hmmm, well try clicking on the menu.
Seaman: Aye Sir. Let us see; Open E-mail, Spam a friend, Mail a Virus, Fire a Torpedo.
Captain: We will spam a friend later. Let us fire a torpedo.
Seaman: Aye Sir.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: It is asking us to load the torpedo and to click when ready.
Captain: Torpedo room, load a torpedo in tube number 1!
Intercom: This is the Torpedo room. The torpedo is loaded Sir.
Captain: Click on the continue button.
Seaman: Aye Sir.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: It is asking for a target Sir.
Captain: Hmmm, target the Rainbow Warrior.
Seaman: Aye Sir. Damn! It says the torpedo is low on ink.
Captain: Click ignore. We will get some ink when we return to base.
Seaman: Aye Sir. We are ready to fire.
Captain: Very good. You may fire when ready comrade.
Seaman: Firing torpedo Sir.
[Another really long pause]
Captain: Well?
Seaman: I am trying Sir. Nothing is happening. Wait a minute
[A loud explosion is heard in the background followed by screaming on intercom]
Captain: WTF was that?!?!?
Seaman: Captain! A new screen has appeared! Outlook Express Fire Control has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Click OK to continue.
[Pause]
Seaman: Oh my God! The paper clip has died! What should I do?
Captain: Shut it down! Shut it down!
Seaman: It is not responding Sir!
Captain: Try CTRL-ALT-DELETE!
Seaman: Aye Sir. We are in luck! The task manager is still operating. I am instructing the task manager to shut down Outlook Fire Control.
[Another long pause]
Seaman: The task manager says that Outlook Fire Control is not responding.
Captain: Well no shit. Tell it to end task.
Seaman: Nothing is happening Sir.
Captain: Try CTRL-ALT-DELETE again.
Seaman: Aye Sir.
[Sounds of frantic pecking on keyboard.]
Seaman: Oooh! What a pretty blue screen!
Captain: Holy Shit! Not the blue screen of dea
[KABLAM! A really big explosion. More screaming and the sound of rushing water.]
The tape ends at this point.
During the week-long rescue effort, divers reported hearing tapping in the form of Morse code coming from survivors inside the damaged sub. The rescuers couldnt understand why a group of men would spend the last of their strength tapping out Windows sucks in Morse code. The tapes of the last moments of the Kursk may offer some insight into this.
Where did you want to go today?
-Robert King
Seriously, I always liked the phrase "software failure" because it was blunt, to the point and didn't beat around the bush regarding what was really meant by that message being displayed. The "Sorry, a system error has occurred." box on Macintoshes with the restart button you'd try to click (assuming the system was still that responsive) really tried to sugar over computer crashes and PCs running Microsoft operating systems never crash so succinctly or elegantly. My view has always been that if a fatal error should occur, the computer should be well designed enough to crash cleanly.
-Robert King
No Keyboard found; Press any key to continue.
-Robert King
Would you prefer No Keyboard Found, System Halted?
Arti
Church Avenue (BMT) station, summer 2000.
Anyone know for sure? TIA.
The price is now $40 per trip. Day of trip tickets will be sold only
if space is available. There will be no extra charge for day of
trip charge for these excursions.
8-) ~ Sparky
I have been on every MOD trip this year since June (were there any before June?) except the Rockaway trip in June (8 of 9) and AFAIK, of those 8, all had tickets available on the day of the trip. I gather the Rockaway trip had tickets available on the day of that trip as well.
Koi
I guess I'll just take my chances.
As for "Day of Sale", not being available, may be yes and may be not.
These December, 2003 excursions have an additional mailing not used previously.
The mailing is going to be sent to the members of the "Transit Museum",
so only the Good Lord Knows. Just advance warning, that they may or may not SELL OUT in Advance.
IMO, December 6 & 7, not, because you can use a 10 RedBird Set, if
needed. December 27 & 28, it's only four 60' cars scheduled.
Do the math. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
VC Madman
All the more reason to keep transit service intact there. Just because somebody's homeless doesn't mean they don't have to go to the doctor, social service center, soup kitchen or whatever.
Sound to me like, some where in your post you lost some basic human values..:0(
The range is in Pelham Bay Park, in the Bronx.
VC Madman
Is there a test for who gets compassion and who doesn't? Is it based on IQ?
(sorry, I'm not at my usual computer and haven't bothered to fill in my usual killfile list)
They once were separate islands with a narrow channel, now filled in, running in between them.
Can anyone say, LFS?
Mark
Mark
Frank Hicks
The Seashore Trolley Museum's National Streetcar Museum at Lowell
There seems to be an exhbit focused on transit and urban design in the 1800s and early 1900s. It looks like it's worth checking out.
Mark
Can you just IMAGINE if Branford had a cash windfall so they could get some jollies building a TUNNEL for 1689 to echo through like she's USED TO? I can ASSURE you, there's nothing so "satisfactory to the senses" as an Arnine hissing and throbbing against *IND* *TILE!* *THAT* is the sound most foamers associate with TRUE arnines, and CRAFTSPEOPLE who know not only how to move them and make them stop, but to make them *SING* ... and that Pssshhhhhh-shhhhhh at a stop. It's *ART* ... and as nicely as I could get my old jollies by running 1689, NOTHING would give ME a stiffy more than hearing it with that "shower-stall resonance" ... (grin)
Trouble is that it's part of Route 15 :-(
I wish your mother my best
~-~-~-~Lord Donald of Suffolk
It took 10 days (6 business days) from when I ordered it online from B & N.
I have only glanced at it but I can tell you that you might be a bit disappointed (and I am very suprised that Brian would do it this way).
Based on the title "A Century of Subways - Celebrating 100 years of New Yorks Underground Railways" you would think it would be almost 100% about the NYC system. Of 388 total pages:
Pages 1-71 August Belmont & his subway
Pages 72-122 Change at Park Street Under (Boston's system)
Pages 123-181 The World's First Subway (London's system with mention of Glasgow's and Paris' systems)
Pages 182-275 New York's Electrified Railroads (NY Central, New Haven, Pennsylvania, MNRR, LIRR.
Pages 276-304 The Legacy of the IRT (this chapter mostly talks about the Chicago, Philadelphia and some other U.S. systems. Only a brief mention on the IRT).
Pages 305-319 Appendix: Equipment Roster (IRT equipment, NYCTA for A division only, NY Central RR, MNRR, New Haven. NYW & B, Pennsylvania RR, LIRR)
Pages 321-366 Notes
Pages 367-371 Bibliography (note: nycsubway.org is mentioned on the page 371)
Pages 373-388 Index
I really loved reading the Amazon reader review of the book, which appears at the bottom of this link
Who Better Than Brian Cudahy?
Two Sunday's ago MTH was at a local hobby shop showing off their latest O scale subway car ... R-12. I couldn't make it, did anyone here go ?
That depends on many factors. These heavy rails (Jersey Mike can probably tell us how heavy) were installed in 1942.
Robert
The weight is per yard. 16 feet of subway track weighs about 530 lb.
Robert
D&H was sold in bankruptcy to CPRail, who decided that the cost of rehabilitation for the small amount of freight using that connection was too high to rebuild the washout, but kept the line "active" until earlier this year. At that time, the diamonds where it crossed the now CSX "Chicago mainline" were also cut AT the junction, leaving the nine mile stretch isolated. It has NOW been "abandoned" ...
CPRail is now serving industry on the western side of that line via rehabilitated track from Duanesburgh, and instead of running direct from Albany, they now route via Schenectady to Duanesburgh and into Voorheesville on the OTHER side of the track. If the abandoned line isn't snapped up soon, it's a goner. The remains run from Voorheesville to underneath Route 9W in Albany, so it would still be viable for an excursion run. Don't see it happening though. And NO, we don't need another "bike path" ...
Like I said though, what's LEFT would STILL make a great excursion line. And although the population's thin out here, it once WAS a commuter line. Got you to Albany twice as fast as driving a car but was abandoned for passenger service in the 1960's ...
Note the REM reference...
November 17 - The agreement with ATU, announced Monday, allows MTA to plan limited bus service on Tuesday and limited rail service on Wednesday. A union ratification vote is scheduled Wednesday. If the agreement is approved, full service will be phased in over a 72-hour period. Please monitor local news and this web site for updates.
Have fun with Aaahnold in office, it is going to be interesting.
However, I've always thought he got the name "Jay-Z" after shortening his original name "Jazzy."
Flushing Avenue on the G
However, I've always thought he got the name "Jay-Z" after shortening his original name "Jazzy."
That's what I've heard.
Now if his middle initial is M... ;)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
At least, unlike several other rappers, he didn't fall victim to "lead poisoning."
:0)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Before you subtalkers say: "that couldn't happen!" it could. I know a very prominent mother of a slain rapper myself.
LL Cool J! (Wait...that's already taken.) :-)
He doesn't have his name for subway lines. :-)
BTW: Is the L a line for the ladies???
Step 1: The questioner takes down a list of all of the following R types: R44, R46, R142, R142A, and R143 (in column format).
Step 2: Then the questioner says the R type and then the car number (you'll have to somehow get a list of A units and B units of the specified R type).
Step 3: The answerer makes a guess, saying what type of unit he/she thinks it is. If the answerer is right, the players switch places. If not, they don't swith places.
Example:
Questioner: R142A #7211.
Answerer: A unit?
Questioner: Right.
(Switch places.)
New questioner (old answerer): R142A #7243.
New answerer (old questioner): B unit?
Questioner: Right.
(Switch places.)
Then it goes on until the desired time. If both players are tied at the desired time to end the game, the questioner asks the tiebreaker question. If the answerer is right, he/she has scored the decisive point. If not, the players play until one of them scores the decisive point.
What's to guess?
On the R142 and R142A's the "A" units numbers end in 0, 1, 5, 6 any other number is a "B" unit.
Examples: 7601, 7605, 7606, 7610 are all "A" units all the car numbers in between are "B" units.
Am I clear?
I think you are a few pounds short of a 5 lb. bag of sugar.
Listen to this sample, and see what you think.
The volume on your speakers does have to be adjusted slightly in order to hear all of it.
I don't think all R62s sound like a hybrid of a R46 and a R32 but this one sure does.
Reasons:
1) Red-to-silver "dissolving" stripe on the A units.
2) Red and black fiberglass on the A unit #1 end cap. As well as the R143's, these are the only car classes with extra colored fiberglass on the #1 end cap.
3) The interiors have advertising space (walls) given up for subway murals & etc. The interiors are also like a reminiscent of the R32/R32A through R42 unrebuilt interiors. Very attractive with the bright fluorescent lights and the walls in the white plextone-style scheme, the blue benches, and the black plextone-style floor.
Exterior, gotta love the R-110B...
Thats just me though.
Adam
It *looked* like a subway train.
It was *comfortable*!
The C/R got a *good* view of the platform.
They *smelled* like Subway cars.
They *sounded* like Subway cars.
They were the BEST cars ever made for a subway!
Elias
StarTribune article
Here is a link to the Hiawatha Light Rail Project Home Page
Assuming funds were available, would this be a difficult task?
Which would benifit riders more -
1. Current situation, with the E ending at WTC and N/R continuing to Brooklyn, or
2. Letting the E continue to Brooklyn (need to have 2 lines to cover the N & R), and City Hall becomes a terminal.
Phrased it this way, it will never happen. More likely, the E could continue south only if it cuts right under Church St., then some fancy & expensive work to merge the 2 lines north of Rector St. Sorry, The cost would not justify the benefit.
I'd vote for that. There's also no need for 2 lines as E tph is greater than N and R combined.
It also would straighten Montague tunnel service a little bit speeding it up, and perhaps making it a viable alternative for broolynites to access Midtown.
Also there's no need for rush hour W after the bridge reopenes, as R woud be enough for City Hall.
Arti
It would also greatly reduce the need for making the 4th Ave-9th St transfer point something more than local.
The W could always be extended into Brooklyn if the demand is there. Lots cheaper than building the E connection.
It would be simplest IF there were enough room to ramp the 8th Av Lcl down. There isn't. There is more room to ramp the Bway Lcl, although I don't know if it's enough.
What would now be simplest would be:
1) bash through the 8th Av Lcl tunnel from WTC to Cortlandt St
2) install thru 8th Av Lcl - Monatgue tracks, close WTC, Bway Lcl temporarily terminates at City Hall LL.
3) create ramps down between City Hall and Cortlandt St so the Bway Lcl can get under the 8th Av Lcl.
4) build the Southern junction (be it between Cortlandt and Rector or wherever. Maybe the LL could use a new East River tube to Court/Schermerhorn.
No temporary closures of stations (only the track between City Hall and Cortlandt St). The only station closure would be the eventual closure of WTC.
why not temporarily close the WTC station, then build a ramp down starting from north of it, or in the middle of it, if there isn't room to start the ramp from south of it?
Because the 8th Av Express turning under Fulton St is straight below it. The only alternative would be to ramp down from just South of Canal St to get the 8th Av Lcl under the 8th Av Exp. That would of course be a huge job.
So would any of the alternatives, for no useful benefit.
If Dekalb and points south need more trains, let them have Ws and/or J/Zs.
But there's no need for that level of service. Flat non-revenue junction would be enough.
Arti
--Z--
R32A birth: 1964-1965.
R32 birth: 1965.
R33ML birth: 1962-1963.
R36ML birth: 1964.
R33S birth: 1963.
R36WF birth: 1963-1964.
R32A 1964-65
R32 1965
R33 M.L. 1962-63
R33 WF 1963
R36 1964-64
R36 WF 1963-64 (first order) 1964 (later cars)
That's my guess.
David
You get your train going as fast as it will go and run off the end of a track.
Trains fly.....
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
A Train Express R44 #5263
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
-Robert King
Ain't no hills like that in Scarberia! Bradford line's pretty flat. I'm thinking Milton or Uxbridge, maybe. I'm hoping Uxbridge.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
-Robert King
This is so hilarious.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
One can run any equipment anywhere...doesn't necessarily have to be on home rails.
Right now I've been running Pacific Surfliner equipment across Indiana on Conrail....
The height of the train equipment doesn't seem to matter, it will go through any scenery objects, etc., such as misplaced stationplatforms (which someone did on an upgraded version of the NEC from PHL to Washington -- a shed was at the University Park station and it stuck out onto the tracks).
I'll never be able to look at a Metrolink train again the same way! Here in Southern California, the Metrolink system's passenger cars were Acquired from the Canuckian GO system!
Wahoo! Let the Freeway drivers see that, they'd all cause their own accidents!!
I didn't get to see today's edition since I didn't work today, but I have seen AM New York when passengers leave copies on my train. Here in New Jersey, it's not available otherwise.
http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/10944.htm
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Provided I were to be in town I would offer to meet up with you and some of the other DC people but I believe that is the time I will most definately be out of town. Seems like many SubTalkers like to come down here when I am gone, oh well.
The 70 or S line: fassssst Neoplan AN460's with DD60 engines
C8: College Park Station to White Flint: according to aznboy, this is a fast, exciting route. i haven't rode it before though.
T2: runs through a rich part of town, Potomac, MD
Any route out of WMATA's Bladensburg garage: usually has our C40LF's with quick Cummins C8.3G's
Ride-On route 5: lots of windy roads
Ride-On Route 15: 4-5 min headways, international flavor on this route;-)
Ride-On Route 90; Runs through Damascus, lots of open roads and farmland
Ride-On's Orion V CNG's with DD50G's. they make sweet music when taking off
I cant think of any more, but I guess the other DC BusTalkers can help you.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Greyhound Terminal
Red Line out to Shady Grove (or at least to Grosvenor). If you do this, it is probably in your best interest to bus across Montgomery County and then ride the Glenmont branch instead of riding all the way around, if you wish to cover both.
Ride the new CAF cars. Fiding one on the Green Line is very easy, they also run on Blue, Yellow, and presumebly Orange.
Visit the new self cleaning toilet at Huntington (nice station architecturally). The rehabbed Bredas also run on the Yellow Line. If any are at Alexandria Yard, you can view them from passing Blue Line Trains (between King and Van Dorn)
For more suggestions, let me know.
Make a stop at Gallery Place-Chinatown. There's two big pieces of artwork in that station. One called "Yellow Line" and another is a giant Chinatown fan.
Additionally, don't forget to take the escalators at Wheaton (longest in the system), Woodley Park-Zoo, Dupont Circle (known as "the bowl", I believe), and Rosslyn. Those are all some deep stations, with some major escalators. At Rosslyn, take one of the outer escalators (next to the wall). The acoustics are rather interesting, and you can hear the conversations of the people on the other outer escalator loud and clear as they pass by.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Did you perhaps mean a different part of Metro?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Orange parallels Amtrak/MARC in Prince Georges.
Green does the same to CSXT/MARC in the same county.
Blue/Yellow parallels CSXT/Amtrak/VRE between National Airport and Alexandria/King Street Station. Blue continues to parallel that line to Franconia-Springfield, although the line splits near Van Dorn Street (the Manassas Line goes west, the Fredericksburg Line goes south, and that's what Blue follows) Best time to see commuter trains on the line is during rush hours... if you can get a window seat, that is.
To be precise. The Orange line parallels CSX from south of the Minnesota Avenue station D09 to the fly over bridge that takes CSX towards Hyattsville that is about half way between Deanwood D10 and Cheverly D11. CSX is on the east side of the WMATA right of way. The former Pennsylvania Railroad now Norfork Southern freight line is on the west side of to a point just south of Cheverly D11 where the WMATA tracks fly over to the west side of the freight line. From Cheverly D11 to a point about half way between Cheverly D11 and Landover D12 the freight line is on the east side WMATA Amtrak NEC is on the west side. The WMATA tracks then once again fly over the freight line just south of the Amtrak NEC Landover interlocking putting the WMATA tracks on the east side of the Amtrak NEC. From the second fly over west of Landover D12 to New Carrollton D13 the Amtrak NEC is on the west side.
This section of the D route Orange line from the portal north of Stadium-Armory D08 to New Carrollton D13 is a roller coaster ride compared to other surface and or elevated section of the system.
John
Michael
Washington, DC
My personal opinion is while the Fenwick Bridge is a fun to railfan location that isn't hard to get to from the center of the city, it is not the most exciting.
Sorry I only rode LIRR several times but it was always a pleasant ride and I enjoyed every moment of it
Montauk branch...?
Sorry I only rode LIRR several times but it was always a pleasant ride and I enjoyed every moment of it
Mineola to Penn...
???? Mineola? He was right, They're talking about the Montauk Branch (better know as the Babylon Branch to passengers).
Regards,
Jimmy
I was on it too, all the way to Ronkonkoma where I connect for Medford. It's a pretty nice run, for sure, but it does tend to get very crowded. Usually all non-middle seats are taken by 5:15 or thereabouts.
"5:17 Super Express from GCT to New Haven is possibly the best commuter run in the region. It makes 5 stops, Stamford, Bridgeport, Something, Millford and New Haven. You get a railfan window with long stretched of 90mph running. When I rode it we had a hotshot engineer who went 90 even in the 75 zones......"
Do Acela Expresses run 90 between New Rochelle and New Haven? Somehow I thought they only ran 75 max on this stretch...
MNRR is more anal about Amtrak engineers obeying the speed limit than its own engineers.
I disagree. Riding on an express that skips many stops is interesting even at modest speed. Yes, high speed makes it even better, but it's not essential.
No stop at Secaucus Junction? You'd think there'd be a huge demand for a stop there.
Nothing against the whole tunnel thing, mind you, and I really like the concept of a "Manhattan Transfer for the 21st Century", but dang it! I despise this creeping trend towards "all trains to Penn Station". I hate to see Hoboken losing status. IMO, there has never been a finer way to enter the metropolis than to arrive at riverfront via train, thence to go the final mile on a speedy ferry. If I lived over there, on the, uh, left coast, or inland from there, I'd do all I could to use good ol' Hoboken Terminal. I mean, come on, what could beat that? I'd even go out of my way to use it.
Especially, in winter. Ferry from Wall Street to Hoboken, on cold dark snowy winter evenings...ahhhhh. The warm trains all lined up in the station, brightly lit in the open air terminal. A real good taste of how it used to be. It's good for the soul to get out of the tunnels, brother rats.
From a railfan point of view, you are 100% correct. From the viewpoint of the average resident of Pearl River or Nanuet who has been taking a bus to work for 20 years, Secaucus Transfer is a thing of wonder.
I am still waiting to see some type of Hoboken-To-The-Mountains excursion service be implemented. This has been discussed here before. And I know that some ski train experiments didn't pan out so well. I just think the basic idea is good. While the office outlook for downtown Manhattan is a little iffy lately, surely, the increased downtown residential population can be a prospective ridership base. Someone who lives in or near Battery Park City, all they have to do is look across the river to see the terminal. Easier to get to than Penn Station, from downtown. Okay, they'll have to look upriver a hair.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
The longest nonstop run for these trains is Westport to 125th, about 40 miles.
Thanks
CH3 = Set radio to channel 3
KO = Limits of Ronkonkoma Interlocking
DE-DM 4-6 = Stop for a diesel train of 4 - 6 cars
Cab Car Stop = Self explanitory
Yeah, it's been decided to make it a six-track three level el, local tracks first level, express tracks second level and freight tracks the upper level. New zoning has been approved for a few stretches of the Avenue: it's gonna be heavy rail-related industry. We'll be seeing sidings veering off the el into multi-story factories and warehouses. Also, there will be two branches for ferry connections. At 34th Street and Fulton Street.
Did I mention the four track local-express LRT streetcar line being built under the el structure? Yeah, and I truly can't wait to see the 34th Street station. Imagine, there, the LRT tracks will, themselves, be elevated and allow cross-platform transfers from both the local and express tracks of the Mainline.
The reason for all this is, as usual, the N.I.M.B.Y. crowd. It seems they didn't want the disruption a subway construction project would engender. The el solution was the compromise.
Arti
Arti
No silly, the launch pad is already at Alabama Ave.
Oh I'm sorry stupid me, that's the launch pad for the Dyre Ave-76th Street shuttle.
Mark
Mark
MTA Chairman Thanks Congressional Conference Committee For East Side Access And Second Avenue Subway Funding
MTA Chairman Peter S. Kalikow today thanked the members of the Congressional Transportation Appropriations Conference Committee for the action they took last evening to earmark $75 million for the East Side Access project and $2 million for the Second Avenue Subway project.
These are important steps toward bringing the Long Island Rail Road into Grand Central Terminal and relieving overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway, he said. Securing these monies from Congress in tough budget times, was only made possible by a team effort for which I must thank the Governor, our two Senators, our Congressional delegation, and the New York business community. Everyone put their shoulder to the wheel to educate Congress about the importance of these two projects to our regional mobility, and it worked. I also extend my sincere appreciation to the leadership of the Senate and House Transportation Subcommittees, Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL) and Rep. Ernest Istook (R-OK) for demonstrating their confidence in our projects.
The $75 million for East Side Access fulfills the Presidents FY04 recommendation to Congress for the project and is the single largest discretionary earmark the MTA has received in the past five years or six years, since the completion of the 63rd St. Connector. We look forward to securing the full funding grant agreement this spring, said Chairman Kalikow.
The $2 million for Second Avenue Subway helps us in our initial planning efforts which are already underway and we will be looking for substantial amounts for that project as it progresses over the next two years, he continued.
Additional information and details about both projects can be found on the MTAs website.
For the Second Avenue Subway, a project expected to cost $16 billion over 16 years, that's less than one day's effort.
"I also extend my sincere appreciation to the leadership of the Senate and House Transportation Subcommittees, Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL) and Rep. Ernest Istook (R-OK) for demonstrating their confidence in our projects.
You don't say!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=601462
Then their slogan would have been "A Century of Geographically Misplaced Clairvoyance."
: )
Mark
Mark
I'm new here....i've been lurking for well over a year but I finally decided to start posting here. Brief introduction...i'm Mike, and i'm from Massapequa (Massapequa Park is my LIRR stop, which is within walking distance of my house!). I've been fascinated by everything land transportation related ever since I was a little kid...thats both road and rail. In fact, I'm still so fascinated by it that i'm now a grad student studying transportation (Civil Engineering) at the University of Virginia. So i'm quite familiar with transit in DC and NYC...i've also traveled to places like Sydney, Melbourne, Madrid, London, Boston, Montreal, Chicago, St. Louis, San Diego, San Francisco, and Atlanta and have ridden those transit systems as well. I like to observe things, and honestly don't take much time to notice a lot of the more technical "rail fan" details, like rail car types, etc.
So, for my first post:
Last month I decided to ride the entire Metrorail system up in DC...just to see parts of the Metro that I had never been on. I started at Shady Grove, and proceeded as follows: Red line to Metro Center, Blue Line to Addison Road and back to Stadium/Armory, Orange Line to New Carrolton, then back to Vienna, then to Rosslyn...Blue Line to Franconia-Springfield and back to King St., Yellow to Huntington and up to L'Enfant Plaza, Green to Branch Ave, then to Greenbelt, then to Ft. Totten, and red from there to Glenmont and back down to Metro Center.
At that point, I had ridden the entire system, and I attempted to exit onto the street at Metro Center. I had bought a day pass when I started at Shady Grove, but by the time I got to Metro Center some 7 hours later, my pass had somehow "expired" and wouldn't let me out! I brought it to the agent who "fixed" it for me...he gave me a weird look when he looked at his computer screen.....and I wondered if they actually see the time/place you entered the system! Anyone have a similar experience or know what the "time limit" is? Next time i'll swipe in and out at an intermediate station (since you can do that without penalty on a day pass) to avoid the hassle...even though it was kinda funny in a way!
"It's also what I don't like about exit gates. Sort of an invasion of your privacy."
I see what you mean there...I could see how some people might not be happy with having to explain why they were in the Metro for 7 hours to an agent...although I would have gladly fessed up if he actually asked me. I could have showed him my proof too (A time-stamped bus transfer from each terminal stop) ;)
The system dumps all the farecard info every 4 hours or so.
When Massapequa Mike went to exit after his 7 hour stint, the systen had no record of his entry time and refused the card.
"The story I heard is that WMATA figured out how the longest travel time in the system would be and had the fare collection system configured that way. The explantion was thast the system had enough memory for 4.5 hours, as no point in the railroad required more than 4 hours for a single journey (as the "worst case" trip)."
"The system dumps all the farecard info every 4 hours or so."
"When Massapequa Mike went to exit after his 7 hour stint, the systen had no record of his entry time and refused the card."
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So lemme get this straight....when you swipe in, it sends your farecard # to a central computer, and when you swipe out, it looks up that entry record on the same computer? ANd here I figured it wrote the entry station onto the actual farecard.......
With a daypass, you shouldn't have any problems getting an agent to let you out if you've used it once before and it has the expiry date shown on it.....you can easily stamp the expiry date when you first start a "long trip" by entering, exiting, and entering.
Since they are good for unlimited trips on the day of purchase/use (that is encoded at the first swipe) the system doesn't record them.
The only reason for the entry/exit swipes is that METRO has distance based fares and rush/non-rush rates. The farther you ride, the more you pay.
It's a stored value card, the same as a Metrocard.
I'm in the eastern section of Massapequa, boardering Amityville. I'm really closer to the Amityville station, but don't use it since it's in the next fare zone.
Bill "Newkirk"
Policy at the time was to charge a "system tour" maximum fare if you swiped in and then swiped out at the same stop.
So anyway, what would have happened if Mike did the (sort of) same thing with a single ride ticket? Get in at, say, Gallery Pl/Chinatown, ride the system for 7 hours and then exit at Gallery Pl/Chinatown?
"So anyway, what would have happened if Mike did the (sort of) same thing with a single ride ticket? Get in at, say, Gallery Pl/Chinatown, ride the system for 7 hours and then exit at Gallery Pl/Chinatown?"
Personally, I think its kinda tacky to ride the Metro all day and not buy a daypass...even if I didn't enter and exit very much, I still did quite a bit of riding and feel as if I should at least pay for the daypass. Also, a daypass with the date stamped on it is easier to talk your way through the exit faregate then a regular farecard i'd imagine.
That being said, next time I do a marathon Metro ride, i'll swipe out and back in (no "penalty" on a daypass) every couple hours or so to avoid the hassle.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr1118,0,5974316.story?coll=ny-top-headlines&vote10266740=1
No more standing in line for clerks or vending machines?
But this could be a first step in that direction. Gee, the LIRR could have accounting control over their tickets and be able to accurately assess passenger flows for the first time in many decades.
Not really practical for single-ride tickets, though. They're the kind you don't plan on buying a week in advance. It would be like having to buy a single token a week in advance.
Oh, and yeah, if you purchase a round trip ticket, you have the option of "peak", "off peak", or "combination peak/off peak"....I thought that last option was nice...no more buying an off peak round trip and then paying the step-up fare on board for moi....
Our Sweedish friends couldn't get enough of our American version of their "meatballs" (which I informed them that we call Toasters), or the curve re-alignment at MP 117 that shaved between 12 and 45 seconds off the Metroliner schedule, reducing the trip time from 3'00" to 2'59", allowing Amtrak to clain a trip time "under three hours" (they laughed and said "Americans"). Finally, as we were about to arrive on time at WAS, K tower held us at Bridge J for about 5-10 minutes for some reason unknown, before shifting out to the boondocks (track 7). The Sweeds were quite critical about how you can't run a good rail transit system with pointless delays like that. I countered with that since the trains were relyably late you simply just add 15 minutes every time you ride it and you're fine. They they were insistant that if you can't count on the timetable the trains are no good. What a bunch of wacky guys :-)
-Robert King
The R44s were new (and lousy) then, the R1-9s dirty brown and limping to the end, and everything else neglected. Are there photos anywhere of this pre-graffiti era?
Thanks,
John
Robert
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I was coming home from a night of debauchery in Manhattan late on Friday night -- about 2:30ish or so -- and was making the turn from southbound Jackson Avenue to Queens Blvd. In the middle of the intersection there was a small road construction area with a backhoe parked inside. From below the surface extremely high-pressure natural gas was billowing forth through the surface. I didn't smell the mercaptan at first (I thought it was just a steam leak), and there was nothing on the scanner, so I just continued on my merry way home.
Driving eastbound under the 7 I saw a numerous police cars heading for the scene and the scanner came to life seconds after.
Thankfully nothing came of the leak and life returned to normal, but could you imagine the havoc it could have caused had it exploded? This was directly under the elevated 7 line, and in the middle of Jackson Avenue -- right on top of the Queens Plaza station! I truly shudder to think!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING November 25th!
No, you are a reject.
It could have been worse than 9/11 in terms of subway disruptions. Try as I will, I simply cannot come up with any even semi-decent alternatives that could substitute for the prolonged loss of service on the 7 and the Queens Plaza lines.
I imagine there would have to be a bus shuttle across one level of the QB Bridge, with only the other level open to traffic -- perhaps a dedicated lane of QB or Northern out to the first point in Queens where the subway was operating.
The blackout proved that it isn't.
Dunno, it got me to Penn Sta from the Upper West Side in a little over a half hour. I was very impressed with that.
When operating AMUE equipment (best parallel is STANDARD air brakes on a locomotive) you pull the handle almost parallel with the rails to feed air INTO the triple valve. Schedule AMUE has "electric hold and electric assist" which compensates for propagation time through the brake pipe, but if you pull the "butt plug" (or "electric brake plug" to be accurate - "butt plug" is what WE called the thing) then you're running that traditional "straight air triple valve" and don't have the electric assist.
You pull the handle near-parallel to the rail to apply air to the pipe until you've applied a proper amount of air, then RETURN the handle to about the 8 o'clock position to "lap" or hold your air. Release is similar to that of SMEE. In SMEE equipment, it's more comparable to that of an automobile where the AMOUNT of handle pull determines how much braking you get ... I've horribly oversimplified, but if you're used to SMEE, you're going to wave byebye to the homeball at the end of the platform and blow right past the station. :)
When I did my TA stint, I preferred to run Arnines because I was much more used to them that SMEE's, and supervision knew I had a "handle" on proper control of the old warhorses so they had no problem with me switching intervals on an equipment basis with others who just didn't want to take them out. But if I ran an Arnine and then take a 32 back on the second half of the trip, it was hell on earth at times keeping myself straight.
And since the 1575 you folks have had a chance to ride LOOKS like an R-10 but is REALLY an Arnine, there was word that many got fooled walking onto the car when it was a lead and screwed up. You'd think that the VERY obvious Arnine layout in the cab would have been a clue but I was told that it still fooled people. That's why when I saw it on the road, it was never a lead or tail car. Somehow though when it went out to BMT East, they actually PUT that pig on the point. Heh. I imagine there's stories about THAT as well. :)
Yeah, the trick is to listen for that PUFF, GLANCE at the airguage as it takes 12-20, lap it fast, if you've got more than you wanted, release it, lap again, add if you blew too much and lap AGAIN ... it's that "jimmy hand" thang. Heh. Take too much of a bite, give it back, take too little, add to the dogpile, listen to "puff in," "float valve sliding," "puff out" ... ah! ... "Feathering the brakes" as us road dogs called it. Heh.
I like-a you! You GOT IT! Happiness *IS* "working your handles for the eagle to chitteth." Next best thing to SLOTS! 6688 is for pussies. :)
Is it wirth listening for the "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound at all?
Running them was all about listening and feeling your way ... especially when they got together in gangs of 8 or 10. :)
Do they have to go and release hand brakes in all of the cars before they try to move the consist?
Elais
(reason for that was that if the handle swung around, OWIE!)
But yeah, you could tell just by looking which ones were down. And some were even more zealous since the rule was "3 or MORE" ... some guys who'd had accidental arnine getaways would do ALL TEN! Heh.
I find it incredible that folks have to be TOLD to do that. :-\
And when you coasted, if some jacka$$ decided to play crank the handle, you'd feel the drag. I know on the newer cars with there always being some "leakage" from the dynamics, it's probably harder to tell than in the old days - but the OLD cars were EASY in that respect. "Free-wheeling" was VERY different then.
But MAN, you never left a terminal without your standing and rolling tests ... that'd be grounds for going out of service if someone spotted you NOT doing that. And with the condition of the equipment back then, you NEVER assumed that if it just pulled in, it was still working when you dropped YOUR wrenches in. :)
Nancy took 6688 out to play that day.
What exactly are you talking about?
Not exactly. The cylinder air goes through a relay valve.
Operating SMEE is pretty much "yank what you need, take too much - ease off, not enough pull harder" ... with AMUE (again, to OVERsimplify) you're playing "fill the bottle" ... you have to FEED it air (reduction) and when you've got the right amount, you have to LAP it manually (or "seal the bottle") to hold what you've got, if it's too much you have to release some, then pull BACK to lap to hold the "new quantity" ... it's a bunch more "hand job" because whatever you apply or release, you have to LAP it when you're there. SMEE and subsequent systems are "self-lapping" and that eliminates the need to always return your handle to the lap position after making a change in called air, one way or the other.
It's VERY different and demands some experience in handling. This isn't to say that SMEE also requires great skill, it's just that with AMUE there's a lot more diddling involved and a lot more "work." Keeps you awake though, it does it does ... :)
Hey. *I* didn't run the R-9 off the end of the track at Short Beach!
: )
I did buy MSTS, returned it. Didn't like it. BVE is a lot closer to the actual behavior of rapid transit equipment, and I did find a Japanese trainset that handles VERY much like AMUE and it's quite accurate. But the "real thing" is very different from sims. Even the MTA's expensive train sim ain't quite like the real thing either.
Seriously though, RELAX ... try AMUE, you'll like it. Only thing is you need to know what you're running when you do and don't get the braking styles mixed up in a real car. Other than that I suspect you'll do JUST fine ...
Here's the scenerio:
Car 4533 (Brill 1904, rebuilt as Safety Car 1924. Car has standard safety car equipment. Brakes very similar to AMUE.
Peter Witt 6119 (Brill 1930) has an MD35 brake stand, and is similar to SMEE.
We discovered that trainmen that had qualified on the Witt first had problems adjusting to the brakes on 4533, since you have to manually lap. The Witt does it for you.
Just like, run SMEEs and jumping to AMUE, it's either hold on, or BANG!
When I worked for the TA for my short stint, there were a lot of folks who did the "steels" headed out the door - massive wave of retirements as the system went straight to hell. Large influxes of "if they have a pulse, give them handles" and schoolcars so crowded, some of us had to report to 14th Street ... I worked BMT south where Arnines were put in for rush hour only (same on the other end at Bedford Park, even busier up there since all of the CC's were arnines too) and while they had most of the F line consisting of arnines, most of those came down from Jamaica.
As a result, there were a lot of folks who had the seniority to get the "good stuff" and the creampuff runs, then there were all the newbies. As a result, this newbie got used to arnines early on, had older motor instructors pleased that "young guys actually LIKE them" so I had very good training. Unfortunately, my comfort with AMUE made it real hard for me to keep things straight when I'd get a 32 for an interval and it took me a couple of stops to get it straight again. Then another arnine on the other end, and having to remember to do things differently again.
I guess where I *really* got stupid was that I made it known that I'd much PREFER arnines, and at the same time a lot of folks either feared them outright and didn't want to take them out, or more often they were afraid of getting "stuck" ... they had their problems and I had the fortune of learning how to troubleshoot them on the road and keep them rolling. At rush hour, this was considered important so what would end up happening was trip swapping and I'd either leap ahead or fall behind so I'd take out arnines most of the time. This of course made my disadvantage even worse when I ended up in the cab of a 32. TA qualified us on everything they ran, so for me it was just a matter of loving the old girls and many of the other folks just not wanting to deal with them.
But as long as you're mindful of the difference, the "problem" isn't as severe as it might sound - it's just a matter of remembering the lap part and when NOT to ... but yeah, amusing times for some folks, and with car 1575 that was really an R7 looking like an R10, plenty of amusing stories of folks who ran an AMUE who THOUGHT they were running a SMEE until the unpleasant reality set in. :)
But anyone who stepped into 1575 and actually THOUGHT it was an R10 really shouldn't have made it out of schoolcar in the first place. :)
It's sad though that the old time MMI's have become TSS's - back in the old days, your MMI was your FRIEND - they were there to HELP you do your job better and would ride with you, show you neat tricks, how to spot unusual problems and resolve them without going out of service and wasting an RCI's time on simple problems. Seems as though today's TSS's are the antithesis of the helpful MMI, their job seems to "catch you screwing up" and being more like a sheriff behind the billboard than a "friend" whose purpose is to show you the tricks that only come with years of experience. I don't think I'd want to work THAT title. :(
Some three years ago or so I did a piece on some of the jargon we use on
the railroad. We have a language of our own. Many of the railfan
publications touch upon it from time to time quoting some of it. And
numerous railfans have a language of their own, often trying to pass it off
as being part of our vernacular. This is what tends to make it easy to pick
out a railfan, the language they use in describing our job.
We're going to start off with a railfan term that is generally not used on
the railroad; lash up. Virtually every railfan publication uses the term
lash up when describing a locomotive consist. On the railroad we use the
term consist, not lash up. How or where lash up came from is beyond me. In
working for all the roads that I have, not once have I ever heard the term
lash up used when describing a locomotive consist while on the job.
Slack; this is a dual purpose word. There is the action of slack that
occurs in a train when there is a change in the train, or a portion of the
train making the transition from being stretched to being bunched or vice
versa. Then there is the action of slack needed to uncouple cars. There are
instances when you are uncoupling and the knuckles of the drawbars are
stretched tight and cannot be uncoupled. You need a little slack to make
the separation. Now here is where various different terms come into play.
In asking for slack the Trainman might as for just that, slack. They may
also request that you slack 'em back or ahead. Or they may ask for a little
iron. Then there is a little rubber. Or how about punch it or perhaps
butter. Ya, butter. I have no idea where this one came from.
Derail; not the action that happens when a train leaves the rail but rather
the metallic device placed upon the rail to cause such action to occur.
Derails are used and required by law under some circumstances. This handy
device, normally made of cast iron is used in various applications to
prevent cars that might happen to break free from rolling out and away.
This device will actually derail a car or cars. It is cheaper to rerail
them as opposed to having them roll away and possibly into an approaching
train which could result in a real horrific episode.
In some cases derails are used to protect cars or equipment already located
on a track from being coupled into. For example, Maintenance of Way may
have track machinery tie up in a track when not being used, like after they
have completed the day's work. Derails and flags are placed in advance of
the equipment on either side of it (if the track is accessible from both
ends) to stop any movement from coming in on top of it. They are used in
car and locomotive repair facilities and also within industries switched by
the railroad.
Derails have been christened with various monikers over the years. This
would include lump, bump or scrap iron.
The knuckle on a car is that movable portion of the coupler. The knuckle,
which weighs in at around 86 lbs is what actually holds two cars together.
Sometimes, either through no fault or through all the fault of the
Engineer, a knuckle breaks. It takes 450,000 lbs of draft force (slack
stretched) to break a knuckle. That is, if there isn't already previous
breakage within the knuckle. A broken knuckle has been dubbed with various
names as well. Iron and jewelry are two of them. One Engineer that I know
that has managed to get more knuckles in one year that I have in my entire
career was dubbed "The scrap iron king." This is every bit as bad, if not
worse than being called Stinky or Cupcake. As a tribute to this guy's train
handling techniques, I wrote his name on several pieces of jewelry he has
littered the right of way with. On a couple of them I also wrote a number,
sort of a running tab as it were.
Zoom is a term frequently used on the IHB. If you are really moving along,
you are zooming. This usually occurs when you are trying to get out of
there, which leads us right to our next term, getting out of there.
This little phrase applies when you are going for or getting an early quit.
An early quit is when you get to go home earlier than your appointed time.
The early quit is an incentive and oftentimes if you get all the work done
required of you, they let you out a little early. In some cases you might
skip your lunch in exchange for the quit. You still get paid a full day,
you just get to leave a little early. A job that routinely gets out early
is often referred to as a quit job. And some guys have been known to run
for the quit.
Now in order to get your quit, you had to have all the required work
finished. In my days at the MoPac, we were expected to switch a certain
amount of cars in our eight hour shift. If not having to deal with
problems, it was routine to switch three hundred cars in six to six and a
half hours, then go home. This was really pounding them out and not taking
our dinner break. We did get coffee and often a second coffee, but we
usually didn't take beans.
Sometimes that quit was used as a carrot. The comment was often made that
they "held the carrot out in front of you" to get you to go like mad, and
then yank that quit out from under you. You got all your work done and were
ready to leave when all of a sudden (sic) they had some move or moves that
just had to be done before you left. Before you knew it, you were eight
hours old and had not been to dinner.
The lunch break brings us to our next term, beans. When you go to dinner on
the railroad, it is frequently referred to as going to beans. I'm guessing
this term is derived from eating beans for dinner. In some places going to
dinner is referred to as taking your minutes. Our new Terminal
Superintendent uses that term and I have heard it used elsewhere.
Now your coffee break is often referred to as just coffee. Sometimes they
will instruct you to get a cup which is yet another way of telling you to
go to coffee.
A few names for some of the employees;
Hogger is a nickname for the Engineer. I've heard various origins to this
one ranging from the fact that he was the highest paid member of the crew,
thus he ate better (and more). Owing to all of the sitting on our duffs we
do once we take the seat and then continuing to consume food in the same
amounts, it tends to make us get fat, which itself is often referred to as
porking out.
An Engineer that plays with the throttle far too much especially in the
yard causing rapid and continuous changes in the slack when switching is
know as a throttle jockey.
Switchmen have been known over the years as snakes. I'm not certain where
this phrase developed, but perhaps it might be attributed to the Switchman
sort of slithering around in the yard. The union that represented true
Switchmen was SUNA, the Switchman's Union of North America. It was merged
into the United Transportation Union in 1969 and for all practical
purposes; this craft has been negotiated away on most properties by the
UTU. Switchmen have also been called dusties as they are working in the
dust stirred up so often and seem to be eating it. I have also heard them
called and referred to the Trainmen as ground pounders.
The headman on a lead job is often referred to as a pin puller. In the days
of three man crews, the Conductor and rear man worked the field, which was
actually the yard, although I know many that played the field. They handled
most of the switches on the lead and usually handled the coupling and
shoving of tracks as required. The head man pulled the uncoupling pins on
the cars as part of the process of switching out tracks.
Road crews have been referred to as road toads while yard crews are often
called yard birds.
In describing some of the types of job assignments we have, we move to the
lead to begin. A lead job is not the first job or the highest ranked job;
it is a job that works the switching lead switching cars in the yard all
day or night.
A daylight job is a job that goes to work usually in the morning between
0630 and 0900. There is a running joke that an assignment that goes to work
in the overnight hours becomes a daylight job when the sun rises on the
morning.
"Daylight come and me wanna go home!"
Afternoon jobs are those that go to work after 1200 hours and before 1900
hours. Anything after that tends to be called a night job. As you'll
notice, we don't refer to transportation assignments as first, second or
third shift as we don't really have true shifts. Now the shop craft and
clerical departments do, but we're not dealing with them here.
An assignment that covers the rest days of other assignments is frequently
referred to as a relief job. It is known on some properties as a swing job
as you are swinging from job to job each day. I've also heard them called
bobtail jobs as you are bobbing from one to job to the next each day.
A roustabout job is one that performs various activities throughout their
day. They are generally not assigned to one particular program. They are
often used to mop up after other assignments that might not have completed
their assigned duties before tying up.
Unassigned jobs such as extra yard jobs are often referred to as bum or
tramp jobs. I guess perhaps that is because you are bumming around the yard
performing odd jobs and the like for your buck. Reminds of me Larry, Daryl
and Daryl from the "Newhart" shoe on TV. You may recall them as the guys
that would "do anything for a dollar."
"I'm Larry, this is my brother Daryl and this is my other brother Daryl."
A dodger is a local assignment. This name comes from the requirement of
having to dodge all the through freight and passenger trains in between
performing your own work. You dodge these trains by clearing up in sidings
or industry tracks.
An industry job or industry switcher is an assignment that primarily
performs the switching of industries.
There are numerous assignments that work well outside of a terminal going
on and off duty at outlying locations. They are referred to as outlying or
outpost jobs. On the CN Chicago Sub, Kankakee and Gilman are considered to
be outpost or outlying jobs. They are both part of the District Four
seniority district, but are both located outside of the Chicago Terminal
which just so happens to be the home terminal. In my days on the MoPac,
Villa Grove was the home terminal for all the road jobs and locals that
worked north towards Chicago. We had a local based out of Watseka that was
considered to be an outpost job. Normally when working such assignments,
there were provisions made for extra pay for driving to such locations as
well as hours of service requirements.
There are types of hand operated switches that are designed to be run
through. Running through a switch means that you proceed through a trailing
point switch (with the switch points facing away from you) with that switch
not properly lined for your move. Some switches will allow the points to
flop over automatically lining themselves for your move without damaging
the switch. These types of switches have often been referred to as
floppers, flop overs or rubber switches. These switches are different from
spring switches in that they will not only line for your move automatically
and then line themselves back. Spring switches are often referred to as
springers and when moving the points in them with your train or locomotives
you are said to be springing the points.
Dimensional load; a load that is of excessive width, length or height or
any combination of all the above. The load is in excess of the normal
dimensions of the standard railcar. Conrail referred to such loads as file
cars. Before any dimensional load is shipped from its origination point, a
file is sent out anywhere from several days to several weeks in advance of
the car or cars involved moving to all railroads involved that will handle
such a shipment. Chief Dispatchers, Managers of Network Operations, shift
Dispatchers and transportation officials all receive copies of the file
well in advance of the load coming onto the property. These types of loads
don't just show up, although to listen to some managers carry on, these
types of loads just sneak up in the middle of the night and appear when it
becomes light out.
This file contains all the pertinent information regarding the load. For
wide loads the information would include the width at various points above
the top of the rail (ATR). Excessive length cars might have information
with regard to the swing out that occurs around curves. The file might
contain other information such as movement restrictions. Some types of
dimensional loads have restrictions that only allow movement in daylight
hours. Others might have speed restrictions on them. There might also be
information and specific routing instructions. Other instructions might
require that the load be physically observed when passing specific points
to positively ascertain the clearance.
There are yet more terms and jargon we use and they will likely appear at
some point in the future. I guess they'll just go back into the file for
now although they are not dimensional. However, these terms tend to be used
frequently by people I have often referred to as demented, but that too, is
for another place and time.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, 2003 by JD Santucci
When the lights went out, people had to WALK 20 miles to get home, or fend for themselves after having to do "structure walks" and hop out through emergency exits. In a city that REMAINS under ORANGE ("heightened") alert and has endured terrorism and all sorts of other disasters, power failures and inconveniences, I can't BELIEVE people have their rumps in the air about this ...
Rule number one in a "fend for yourself" situation is to ALREADY have a plan for whatever gets in your face. I've read a few of them, refuse to read any more - reality is you can either suck it up and WALK, find a cab, find a bus if you can find one, but the MAIN thing is no matter WHAT happens, you're not alone - others are with you and you just do what you've gotta do. About all the TA can do if the trains are shut down is hand you a "block ticket" and say "we owe you a ride."
I'm rather disappointed in where the thread I'm referring to has been going. New Yorkers are better than that. Gripe, grouse, sure ... but geez ... CHIT HAPPENS. DEAL with it ... have a plan BEFORE it happens. Carry extra change - at LEAST have enough money to make a phone call and maintain a few friends who can either come and GET you, or let folks who are worried about you know what happened.
FEET work ... sorry for putting it this way, but one of the things that gets my rump in the air is folks who are a SHORT walk away from midtown insisting that they be conveyed at their convenience. Most of the time it works as nicely as they want. Other times, chit happens. Punt. :(
It's a 21 mile walk from where I am to the nearest municipality. Takes about 6-7 hours to do it. Try it at 10 degrees. Chit happens.
Once again, a train full New Yorkers prove themselves grumpy but resilient.
All except one person who is not resilient and happens to be the first poster on this thread. Grumpy, HELL YES!
The amount of racial profiling going on here is unbelievable. The cops never would have stopped Canadian diplomats videotaping in the subway.
Maybe if the Arab-American community wasn't so universally apologetic about Arab terrorism, other Americans wouldn't universally judge them.
I'm not. If it was espionage, which is a good possibility, using diplomats as spies makes this is a potentially serious international incident, since the diploamts can not be arrested. The worst that can happen is that they can be declared persona non grata and forced out of the U.S., unless, of course, their embassy is really pissed with them for getting caught.
Check your facts.
Every Arab American denunciation of the 9/11 attacks always includes a "but" followed by an anti-American or anti-Israeli rant meant to mitigate the attack. I refuse to accept that.
Notice I'm not blasting ALL Muslims. I have an Albanian-Muslim family on my block, and they never attempt to justify or quantify what was done on that day.
I can't believe the pro-profiling people crawling out of the woodwork here.
They were never in the woowdwork to begin with so no crawling is needed.
-Robert King
How democratic or not Iran may be is irrelevant. Democratic countries can be enemies or go to war.
And if a genuine gansta who was just after their cameras did shoot someone, it would be blamed on the CIA anyway.
There's NYCRR Title 21, Chapter XXI Section 1050.9(c), which appiles to all users of the transit system, regardless of citizenship.
Second, what is your argument? Because of NYCRR, the cops should not have questioned the filmers?
I didn't say it was the Consitution. However, unless they had lights and a tripod, they were doing nothing illegal.
The whole discussion is infantile, anyway; if they want a video of the Flushing line, they could just rent Spiderman. There isn't a whole lot of espionage that can be conducted on an elevated platform with a Handycam. As far as the UN security personnel caught "casing" the Brooklyn Bridge and Statue of Liberty, just pick up a guide book, it's easier.
The taping, per se. may not have been illegal. But the substance and intent might have been.
People who are "casing" a location, are generally looking for details one does not find in a video or guidebook.
And these dudes did not seem to be photographing what a railfan ordinarily would. It is perfectly legitimate to question them.
Was it legitimate to confiscate their property without a warrant?
The Iranian mission can always request the equipment back, through channels, of course.
I remember when we sold weapons to them to raise money to support Nicaraguans :). Regardless of what happened twenty years ago, it doesn't defend selective application of the law.
Why weren't these two arrested and the FBI called in? Oh, they were blond haired, blue eyes Sweedes. Hell, from the way things are headed in this country soon they'll be the ones able to order people detained and questioned.
Holy moly. I thought at first you were joking. Don't these two phrases contradict each other? How can they be trying to develop better relations while having an anti-American public posture. That's the whole problem in the first place! wow...
~W
BTW, I only condiser it a plot when one actually has a working weapon, a plan and a date. Angry arabs speculating in private about outlandish pipedream plots involving blowing up the Brooklyn Bridge just dosen't cut it in my opinion.
Bali ... Istanbul ... Saudi Arabia ... Mombasa ...
..\/. I am not a crook .\/..
Face it, because of the 9/11 events anyone looking like they are from the Middle East is going to be suspect even if all they are doing is videotaping. The fact that they are claiming diplomatic immunity makes the situation even more suspect. How come if they were at a party there was no footage of the party?
What would you say if it turns out that the 2 individuals are "freelancing" as mentioned in the article of others and intend to turn over tapes to a group hostile to the U.S.?
As politically incorrect as it may be (don't get me started on what I feel about political correctness) these days it is better to be safe than sorry.
The situation is unfortunate but it is reality. It happened to people of Japanese background in the WWII era because of the actions of the Japanese Government at the time. Was it wrong? I would say it was but what would you have done under those circumstances.
Democracy has nothing to do with it. Iran is a culture that I don't understand, and as is Saudi and several others. I do not feel comfortable with people from cultures that I do not understand videotaping my subways (or indeed anything else). I may be ignorant, but if the majority of the American public agrees with me, those people need to be removed. Cultural misunderstanding or not, they should be removed first. Ask questions later.
I'm glad the American public does not misunderstand the British culture.
AEM7
I wish you understood American culture. :0)
Welcome to NEW YORK! Ain't no WAFFLE HOUSE HEAH! (heh)
You're right I don't -- but many Americans seem to agree with me... so perhaps the Pancake State has its own distinctive flavour of "American" culture that I don't see here...
Damn it. I was gonna stay out of this thread. But you had to say something ignorant like that. You don't really know what you're talking about. The American culture is extant, multi-faceted, vibrant, and envied.
So, ponlo eso donde el sol no brillo.
Of course there's always something going on, but i'm really surprised how the article mentions there's always people shooting video and they run away or destroy the tapes when approached.
I got an idea. Let's come from a known red-flagged country, shoot some video of the infrastructure in the middle of the night when no ones around, and not be able to even speak english.
Deport them(along with the UN).
I'm *BIG* on civil liberties, and freedom to be a putz is GUARANTEED in the Constitution. These are foreign nationals however, and even with diplomatic immunity, the police were RIGHT in trying to detrrmine, as they say in England, "what's THIS all about?" As I've often said, the "terrorists" ALREADY HAVE their plans made ... they've ALREADT got the "track maps," They've ALREADY GOT the "where's the stairs?," "whicy WAY do the tunnel fans suck air?" and all the DETAILS. It's TOO LATE to stifle that ... STRUCTURES don't change, and HAVEN'T ... they've GOT their "intelligence" ... TOO LATE.
So what WAS that photogrpahy about? Hope we don't go bozo ... REAL terrorists already HAVE the data ... from YEARS ago. :(
Iran is similar to Cuba in terms of its relationship with the United States. Washington treats both countries as dire enemies, prohibiting normal diplomatic and trade relations. For their part, the governments of Cuba and Iran are nominally anti-American but actually want better relations. And finally, the people in Cuba and Iran, with strikingly few exceptions, admire the United States and in many cases would move here if they could.
There;s a new sheriff in town, and his name be Dick Cheney. :(
But the relationships we *HAD* are no more. ANYWHERE. Nancy and I depend on our living for "goodwill" towards American software (Americans want FREE software), like so much ELSE of what was once a global "image" of America is so much spolied FISH across the world today. :(
But this has NOTHING to do with SUBWAYS.
For those who have ever grown UP in New York City, or those who spent perhaps a few more minutes in town than John Rocker, then folks in general would understand a "GLOBAL" perspective on realities and APPRECIATE PRECISELY where "America" stands in global perspective. Collectively, "we" are sucking dead donkey lungs on the D train globally. "America" has NEVER looked worse than we do now with a doddering IDIOT in chief as seen by the rest of the planet.
Before I get "occursed" by the dittos though, I *IMPLORE* subtalkers from *OTHER* nations to chide in and respond, and let folks know what the *REST* of the world thinks of "America" lately. I for one, amd AGHAST! ... I'll only be dismissed entirely unless someone ELSE comes and explains it from their OWN "I'm not a yank" perspective. Maybe we can be a PLANET again, united in PURPOSE some day ... can someone else chide in and explain where I'm coming from? PLEASE? :)
And I do respect you and your views, and do enjoy your posts, even though I don't agree with some of your political viewpoints sometimes. I can see the good ideas and bad ideas in both sides of the political spectrum.
As for 9/11, the plans for destruction have been planned for years, whether it would have materialized with Al Gore in the same way, worse, or not as bad as what happened in 2001, is up for debate. However, many nations hate us regardless of what we are doing, and I don't feel we could just sit back and relax either. Should we not have gone into Afganastan, or Iraq? Either view someone has some agreements and disagreements. However, the status quo wasn't working either.
For those who have ever grown UP in New York City, or those who spent perhaps a few more minutes in town than John Rocker, then folks in general would understand a "GLOBAL" perspective on realities and APPRECIATE PRECISELY where "America" stands in global perspective
Well, I do understand, grew up, and spent most of my life within the confines of New York City. As for other coutries agreeing or disagreeing with us right now, a lot has to do with the media, and the way what's going on is displayed. I have seen programs that reflect the horrors of what's going on in an exagerated way one day, and have seen the greatness of what's going on the next day. It depends on what you watch that particular day. Unfortunately many people can't take what they are watching is given with the broadcasters point of view thrown in, and must really take what they hear with a grain of salt - either side.
I'm not arguing ONE BIT with your perspective. Hell ... if someone screw with us, do you think for a SECOND that we don't crack open the can of whoopass and *throw a MATCH to it*? Heh. That'd be frigging insane! Only thing less "civilized" lifestyles can understand is the "respect" brought upon by "shock and awe" ... for the few less imaginative, I'll paint it this way ... ever see a movie where the school bully gets keel-hauled?" Heh.
But this is going elsewhere from what I had INTENDED ... merely that the US is making SERIOUS "foreign policy" mistakes ... THAT was my point here ... WE are pything off the world for acting like circa 1936 GERMANS in our "global stance" ... reality is the CIVILIZED world felt sad for New York and the rest of the "UNAFFECTED STATES OF AMERICA" ... WE got shafted in NY, LOUISIANA got chemical control units. WE didn't. WHERE did the "attack on America occur?" Oh nevermind, it was in LUBBOCK, TX. :(
But yeah, isn't the media BS *stunning?" And yet, the Ministry of Truth runs 24/7 ... don't mind me, as Howard Beale, in Paddy Caievski's "Network" stated, "I've simply run out of bs, you see?" :)
There's all this talk and concern about how the rest of the world views us. I agree we should keep any eye on what they have to say - but I ask you this - Does the rest of the world really have OUR best interest in mind?
(think Saudi Arabia - our "ally", think SYRIA on the SECURITY COUNCIL, think FRANCE and their jealousy of America over 20th century...the list goes on....is this who we should be listening to?)
now back to our scheduled broadcast...
~W
Not at all. Iran does not consider it the enemy of the United States and does not support terrorism against the United States. Its diplomats therefore aren't likely to have any nefarious purposes in mind when they take videos of the subway at night.
Iran travels in circles inimical to the interest of the U.S. They certainly warrant be watched.
I don't know about the '30s. The Volksbund was a legal organization until some time around the beginning of WWII.
But an interesting point is that many or most of the members were American citizens. I know people who had family members visited by the FBI because someone in the family had been a member of the Bund. It wasn't nice, but generally people understood why...
With 99% probability, two newbies wanting to video everything in NYC because it's a brand new place to them just like it is to the tourists from Iowa.
Nevertheless, I can't see that it's wrong for the police to question any foreign nationals closely for doing this. That said, it's probably also true that most Canadians wouldn't get the same treatment.
And Canadiens should not be stopped. I don't like Canadiens, but I feel safer with them videotaping my subway than Iranians. Good work, Transit Police. AEM7
Exactly the same number as the number of Iranian terrorists who have crashed airplanes into the World Trade Centre. None.
Your attempt at wit has failed miserably.
In that case, we should profile Canadians as terrorists because of their role in the Oklahoma City bombing, right? The US-Canadian border is artificial and post-imperialist.
---
You may be too ignorant to realize it, but there's a big difference between Iran and the other two countries you mentioned. Iran is not an Arab country. Even if you want to profile all Arabs, something I oppose, Iranians are not Arabs. And if you want to profile all Muslims, which is even worse, then you start stopping Black Muslims, Malaysians, etc. Where does it end? Racism is never right.
Quite wrong.
Iran (aka Persia) is a central asian country with a history going back to the beginnings of recorded time. Its people are largely aryan, and the predominant religion is Shia Islam. Islam was an import to Iran and replaced Zoroastra as a national religion (although there are still Zoroastrian communities in Iran).
Saudia Arabia and Syria (and Iraq) are middle-eastern countries, with a quite different (but equally long) history. Their people are largely arab. The predominant religion is Sunni Islam. Islam of course originated in Saudia Arabia replacing various tribal religions.
Actually Iran doesn't have a border with either Saudia Arabia or Syria, since Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait and the Persian Gulf are all in the way.
Iran does have a border with Iraq. However that border is probably one of the most resilient in human history. A trip to a decent museum of ancient history will show you that boundary was essentially already there in the first millenia BC, albeit in those days separating Sumeria and Assyria from Persia.
Quite wrong.
Iran (aka Persia) is a central asian country with a history going back to the beginnings of recorded time. Its people are largely aryan, and the predominant religion is Shia Islam. Islam was an import to Iran and replaced Zoroastra as a national religion (although there are still Zoroastrian communities in Iran).
Saudia Arabia and Syria (and Iraq) are middle-eastern countries, with a quite different (but equally long) history. Their people are largely arab. The predominant religion is Sunni Islam. Islam of course originated in Saudia Arabia replacing various tribal religions.
Actually Iran doesn't have a border with either Saudia Arabia or Syria, since Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait and the Persian Gulf are all in the way.
Iran does have a border with Iraq. However that border is probably one of the most resilient in human history. A trip to a decent museum of ancient history will show you that boundary was essentially already there in the first millenia BC, albeit in those days separating Sumeria and Assyria from Persia.
However ... speaking in a modern political sense, Iran was the first fundamentalism Islamic state to declare open hostility to the U.S. So, though it is not part of the historic pan-Arabism of the region, it is part of a community of interest vis a vis the West. I think that's what the poster was trying to say.\
The police officer rightfully detained them not because they were Arab or looked like it. They were detained because I would find it suspicious to use a video camera to film subway facilities at 3 AM in a residential area with no tourist attractions within a 10 mile radius.
--Mark
Almost any railfan would know it if they saw it.
Put it this way--if you CAN'T distinguish between what a railfan would do and what a terrorist would do, you're making an excellent case for banning photography on the subway system altogether.
The article said nothing about stairways, emergency exits, control rooms, or switches being on the tape, and if you think "railfans" only shoot trains and out the railfan window, you haven't seen heypaul's tape of the last Redbird run :).
I was doing some photographing at Stillwell a couple of weeks ago (quite middle-aged not-too-wild-eyed white male) and was challenged. I explained what I was doing and that was that.
If I had responded in Farsi and claimed diplomatic immunity, and a cop said "Oh, OK," it would indicate NYPD is being overpaid. :)
As an aside, anyone with police training is taught to look for the "out-of-place" and the inappropriate. You can learn a lot from the demeanor and response of a person asked a straight quesion, regardless of the content of the answer.
P.S.: I don't think NYPD is overpaid.
The Canadians would have gone to 300 Jay Street, explained what they wanted, and the TA would be happy to take them out and help them to record anything they wanted.
(Ie if it was a official request, because they wanted to build a Subway in Canada.)
Hell, if the Iranian Embassy wanted oficial pictures for some purpose, they would have done it the same way, with the same result.
So, either these Iranians were scalliwags that needed deportation, or they were legitimate rail fans.
But the police officers *do* have the right to detain you if you are being suspicious. If you would properly identiry yourself, say that you are a railfan, and then go on at length about how great the lighting was, and that you got some great artistic shots, and then proceed to show them to the officer, he will have two choices.
1) To let you go, or
2) arrange nice accomodations for you at Belview.
: ) Elias
Now let's all FEAR Unca Selkirk! I am neither liber-rail, conservatwit, nor indirigible. PHUCKS the widdle minds of politicos, it does it does ... just like Froggy the Gremlin ... "Hiya kids, hiya hiya ah ah ah" ...
REALITY is, when you GO to visit somewhere that ain't your own 'burgh, if you WANT something, you make phone call, talk to wiglets, get on a TOUR to see it like all others, or receive the PENULTIMATE TREAT of "You want to see which? My SECRETARY will come to lead you personally" ... sorry, did "diplomatic and government service" ... if THESE guys WANTED to take pix, and had DPL plates ... wuh-oh. We *HAVE* people who do that ... diplomats, for their privvies are restrained in EVERY country by KNOWN PROTOCOLS.
If THESE guys that were busted CLAIM diplomatic immunity, than they're in violation of PROTOCOL in their OWN Embassy and are thus FORFEIT. Lemme put it to everyone THIS way ... I'm Catholic. I SPECIFICALLY go "PTOO!" on the church's policies prior to recently over the "Jews killed Jesus" nonsense ... never was accepted by ME - If you BELIEVE in God, then you accept what happens - please leave this alone, was just showing a path of consciousness of personal mindset, let's not get into religion here, PLEASE!!!
Bottom line, *IF* they are "DPL plates" then they're MORONS ... rules are simple, they *COULD* have had *OFFICIAL* permission to BE there. Didn't HAPPEN. *BIG* problem in my eyes KNOWING how "please pass the sweet and sour shrimp" *REALLY* works ... PROTOCOL violation! Go DIRECTLY to jail, phuck yew ... sorry folks ... I'm not normally judgemental, but DPL plates are *NOT* citizens ... Something is MIGHHTY fishy in this episode ... EVERY "diplomat" in EVERY nation gets paperwork on "cultural and local regulations observance" at any station they're sent to ... I've done "this" too ...
This wasn't your usual "foamer" bust ... as DEEPLY as I respect the rights of Americans and GUESTS to enjoy a visit, these WEREN'T "accidental tourists" given their reported status. NO EXCUSE. :(
Usually the cop privately feels like "I wish I could have run his ass in".
People who tend to have DPL tags also tend to feel laws don't apply to them - and it's always the lower level ones that do it.
The high level diplomats know not to piss off the host country.
Elias
That's probably why we have so much terrorism in this country perpetrated by floppy-headed Canadians.
Have you not been following this board for the last X months and read of SubTalkers of all races/religions being stopped, questioned and sometimes ticketed for simply taking pictures in the subway.
Nice play of the race card. Too bad you lose anyway.
CG
During McCarthy, people were shut up and conversation stopped when their opinions were compared to that of "communists, reds, or their sympathizers."
Now, as soon as someone waves the banner of race, the argument is deemed impeached, the conversation ended. and the arguer made to shut up.
That's certainly true. Political correctness still permeates much of our society, something I regret.
While we're on the topic of McCarthyism, however, I do see another parallel. Back in the 1950's, many people saw Communism as a mortal threat to the American way of life, a foul ideology on the verge of world conquest. Subsequent events proved that it was a paper tiger. Today, many people think that Islam is the new Communism, a grave threat with world conquest as its goal. And I have no doubt there's just as much exaggeration of the threat as there was in McCarthy's day. Sure, there are radical elements in Islam, but they don't represent its main stream, just as the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent all of Christianity.
It was fortunate for all concerned that the Soviet Union and the U.S. were not willing to risk the destruction of their societies to advance their goals.
I know the arguments about "true" communism or not, but that was not really the issue at the time of McCarthy. Stalin represented himself as a Communist and the Soviet Union was the face of Communism to the world, even if every principle of Lenin was violated.
Put it another way, if Stalin had been faced down by proving he wasn't truly a communist, he would not have said (translated, of course) "you've learned my secret, now I can no longer exist!" :)
Racial profiling ? I don't think so.
Maybe we all should loose some rights to get rid of the terriosts ?
The military seems to be going the wrong way now ... don't they know how to do anything except blowing up houses ? Maybe I've been watching too many spi movies, i.e. our CIA is realy that dumb.
I know YOU to be a patriotic "yankee" (screw Steingrabber) as well as I am ... for SHAME saying that ... and anyone else who buys into the DEPENDS pantalones gigante mentality a certain party's been trying to seel us since the polls hit rock bottom in the FIRST week of September, 2001. :(
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Benjamin Franklin
(don't believe me, I've been tagged with the scarlet letter "L" by others ... just cut and paste the quotation, and prove its TRUTH for itself) ... that SEPTA DEWD was prophetic ... he ALSO said ...
Upon leaving one of the many sessions of the Constitutional Convention held in Philadelphia in 1787, Benjamin Franklin, one of the delegates, was asked what type of government was being considered for America. "A Republic, if you can keep it" was his reply. One could argue that we are having a very difficult time "keeping it". The fiber of America seems to be fraying right before our eyes. The value system our founders knew and lived by, indeed the value system that and world view that they based our entire nation on, is barely recognizable in society and government today.
INTERCOURSE Ashcroft and his "New World Order." :(
Don't know about Daily News.
Uh-huh, sure. And Rupert's empire is "fair and balanced."
While the Post has its good points, it tends to be very anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. Its Middle Eastern coverage, in particular, is extremely biased.
Calling in the FBI every time some arab guy pulls out a camera is just a waste of police resources and provides little if any security.
Not to mention the "crying wolf" factor.
Another point is that few Arabs walk around New York in Bedouin-style robes. That guy who looks like an Arab might well be Hispanic, or Indian, or racially mixed ... or even, in some circumstances, a Jew.
So is it real? Or is it like the whole highway scene where a 1 Mile section of highway had to be built for the 2nd movie?
This is what I live for...
I just watched the "making of" on the DVD this weekend. Awesome "extras" on the DVD.
Compile failed = 0x0001.
By the way, if you're expecting a good movie with a plot and some level of deeper meaning, don't waste your money on the new Matrix flick. However, if you're looking for a basic action flick with a lot of special effects, then it wasn't bad. IMO, they should have stopped after the first Matrix movie.
I'll be happy when the next Lord of the Rings movie comes out next month, although it's doubtful it will feature any subway scenes.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Surely you missed this thread? :)
Also...I was told by WB that the route they filmed is known as A-loop, runs from 207th Street Manhattan to 1 Main St, Nowhere, AK.
;-)
http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/stillwell.gif
#3 West End Jeff
So 2005 is the earliest date the entire reconstruction might be completed, and there may be more work to do after the last platform's done.
I still don't quite understand why, if the N and W can share two tracks at a north terminal, they can't also share two tracks at a south terminal. Even at weekend headways, when W trains run via the Sea Beach and West End trains are shuttles between 9th Avenue and Stillwell, alternate W's drop out at Kings Highway.
Come on Fred.... The Sea Beach had the Triplexes... It went to Coney Island... I think it's all your fault... Once you and Walter O'Malley abandoned New York, Brooklyn and the Sea Beach line have never been the same...
#3 West End Jeff
Ben F. Schumin :-)
"Police say a car has gone off the Clearview Expressway and landed on the Long Island Rail Road tracks below. The Port Washington Line is closed. Stay tuned to News 12 Long Island and news12.com for more on this developing story."
Uhh, the tracks are ABOVE the clearview. With that said, how the @!*% did the car get up there!? And why isn't there anything posted on the MTA site?
Because (apparently) the car was going fast when it veered off the expressway, ran up the embankment and came to rest on the tracks.
Cars *can* do that, you know...
Although I didn't know that cars could go all that fast on any NYC road or highway. I mean, how far can you go at 20 mph? (Heheheheheeeee.)
And why isn't there anything posted on the MTA site?
Webmasters have a strong union, they do not work at night.
Elais
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/nyc-crash1119,0,4733708.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
http://www.nydailynews.com/11-19-2003/news/story/138217p-122824c.html
Also:
"after it plunged off a Queens highway to railroad tracks 15 feet below."
WTF!!! NO! The highway is BELOW the tracks. Then the article goes on to say he was on the service rd! ARGH. The service road ends at grade with the tracks, right!?
If you can help him, be kind and help him.
What about the 5th Av station on the N,R,W or the Madison/5th Av station on the E, V?
But I agree, it is too off topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Story here.
In this post 9/11 world, these people should be presumed to have been operating for nefarious purposes unless conclusively established otherwise.
Sad, but necessary.
City officials were close to a deal with CSX Transportation on Monday intended to ease safety and liability concerns regarding the intersection where Tampa's year-old trolley line crosses railroad tracks.
....
Video cameras positioned beside the railroad tracks would replace the CSX flagman and the streetcar line supervisor who currently must give the OK before a trolley conductor, who also keeps an eye out, can drive over the tracks just south of Fifth Avenue.
The crossing's ``triple redundancy'' procedure, as one official called it, was instituted in July after two instances of questionable communications threatened to bring streetcars and trains too close.
......
It's about time
Thanks for the update on the little TECO line. any idea when it might reach downtown Tampa?
I haven't heard a date yet for another expansion. If you go on the Hartline.org website and click on the teco pdf file(12 pages) there's a giant expansion plan now. Phase 2a,2b,2c,3. Goes all the way up north of downtown and loops to ybor. The last segment isn't a place you wanna be or most would feel comfortable in, but if Orlando can make a neighborhood turn around from crappy to overpriced, and the trolley already did it, this area should be fine.
Now it's CSX and SEPTA crossing on Main Street in Darby.
'Why,' indeed. At $300,000 a year for insurance, it won't be all that many years until the total cost exceeds that of installing an interlocking.
Bush Security People Wanted to Close London Underground
Guess there isn't as strong a market for adult diapers across the Pond. Good for the Brits!
I've had it with you people. Are you darker skinned than I am? How big is your nose? You can't be riding through closed subway stations when MY president is looking at exhibits of Indians from MY country TEN FEET over your nasty curly-haired head.
It's back to SYRIA for YOU, you monster. The NERVE!!!!!!
- Stopping all white men who looked like they might be able to speak Russian in Dallas that day from entering downtown would have saved JFK? Absurd. But controlling access to his firepower might have done it.
- Stopping the riding public from passing, at speed, under reinforced concrete (or, in London, earth-covered tunnels) and not letting them guess where the president is while carrying tons of concrete-penetrating explosives under him -- nonsense. But having a good intelligence operation in place and concentrating on the loners, goons and operatives who buy rifles and pierce traditional cordons -- expensive, uninteresting politically, but that's what the taxpayers are paying for.
The rest is prejudicial eyewash, and I'm sick of it.
The *OFFICIAL* "Secure, undisclosed lcation *IS* ....
"The HERITAGE FOUNDATION" in Valley Forger, PA ... The *ONLY* time you see Vice President ... dick ... is at a podium at the Heritage Foundation, raising charity money for Enron. :)
And ONLY reason that Shrub wanted to have the underground closed is that he DIDN'T want to try to figure out the timetable for Charing Cross. Can't blame Roger the Shrubber for THAT one. :)
#3 West End Jeff
This seems to be just the kind of journalism I was talking about in the other thread. The reference to the London Underground was vaugue. The way you are making it sound (and the journalist) is that the US wanted the entire Underground shut down. I didn't ready anywhere that that was the request. Now people reading this say what an asshole Bush is, he wanted the whole tube shut down. Could it possibly be that they wanted a station or two shut down, similar to what they did in New York at 81st not too long ago? That is not an unresonable request, and certianly not as ridiculous as the way people are talking about this. I severely doubt it was requested that the entire tube be shut down. Geez, they don't even do that in New York when Bush comes, why would they do that in London?
This is just the kind of one sided journalism that makes other countries hate us.
The White House initially demanded the closure of all Tube lines under parts of London to be visited during the trip.
Depending on how paranoid they were, this could include the Piccadilly line (runs under Hyde Park Corner, at the back of Buckingham Palace), Jubilee Line (ditto), Circle Line (St James is a couple of blocks away from Buckingham Palace), etc.
The Guardian tells us that a majority of the British support Bush and his visit, but let me tell you, that if they had shut down the Tube, all of London would be against him!
Nah, They hate us because we support the only real democracy in the Middle East and Europeans are still basically anti-Semitic.
Well, that and the fact that most of the old European powers (France, Germany, England to an extent) haven't taken a single economic step forward in about 30 years.
What better way to feel good about yourself than to hate the person who has more than you.
#3 West End Jeff
Much more likely that they didn't care.
Chimpler is close enough to a clinical sociopath that preventing an entire city from going abouts its business wouldn't bother him one bit.
A tip of the derby hat and a sip of Earl Grey Tea to the British. Bush is nothing more than your average paranoid demagogue.
-Robert King
The nerve! After all, if, say, the Chinese prime minister were to visit Washington, and if his hundreds of armed security guards asked for blanket immunity should they have to Tiananmen Square the DuPont Circlewhy of course we'd say yes!
Loved it!
It will be very interesting to see what happens later this week. While Britain voted Labour, it was as much a vote against the Conservatives as anything else. Now that Ian Duncan Smith is out, and New Labour is looking tired, the next elections anyones guess.
An American perspective and personal politics aside, should the President of the United States be afforded more security than the head of state of any other major nation? No. The arrogance that engenders such a demand is a small example of why America has the public relations problems it does around the world.
I will be the first to admit my abject distain of President Bush, but I was no fan of Billy-Bubba either -- and used to get thoroughly ticked when he would come to NYC and I'd get stuck in gridlock because they had to "secure" several city blocks around him.
Having spent a great deal of time living in Europe, I have learned that America is not the center of the universe. This is not an anti-patriotic position, it is a statement of fact. We are a nation of under 300 million people in a world of five plus billion. Other peoples have the right to as much respect as we do -- despite our wealth, prosperity, and military power. And we have no more right to expect special treatment than any other nation.
Why should hundreds of thousands of Britons be subjected to the inconvenience of closed underground stations to satisfy the demands of Bush's paranoia. Do they shut down the Metro in Washington everytime he goes from point A to point B? The president (no matter who he is) should be afforded proper security, but not at levels that Bush (and Clinton before him) often demands. So again I say, congrats to the Britons (our closest of allies at that) for standing up and saying, No!" Let the trains roll......
Yes he should be afforded more security more than any other head of state because he needs it more than any other head of state. What other visitors to London attract 100,000 protestors? Should 1 of those 100,000 be crazy and have an opportunity to do something, it would be disaster. It's not like they just made this up. The threat is real.
So don't compare our president's visit to any other heads of state. In addition, I don't think that ANY president should not visit because of a threat.
~W
-Robert King
We do have recourse - it is called a Presidential election and happens every 4 years.
I didn't mean to put the "not" in there/ I mean, "Like life would be any different with a different president".
Don't be so sure. Sept 11 was so intimiately tied to specific failures on behalf of the current administration that it wouldn't have happened under Gore's watch. This administration did not directly cause Sept 11, but their perverted methods of operation were a vital component of al Qaida's success.
Gore wouldn't have invaded Iraq, either.
That's all hearsay, and easy to say in hindsight. To say that 9/11 would not have happened under Gore is ridiculous. They've been wanting to get us for a decade. 9/11 was planned for years. Many of the security shortcomings already started with cutbacks during Clinton's administration. And even if 9/11 didn't materialize like it did (which is questionable), they would have gotten us a different way. We were living under a "this can't happen to us" attitude. And that's not Bush's fault, Clinton's fault, and wouldn't have been Gore's fault if he was in power. That's the attitude we had. That changed on 9/11. Even if by some chance things would have been different under Gore (which I don't believe), the date just may or not have been different. That's it. That awakening was inevidable.
Oh, please.
One can lay the blame at Clinton's feet for neglecting and underfunding national security interests, but that is equally disingenuous. His congress was Republican.
We can all share the blame for not being prepared for 9/11. Can we move on now?
CG
~W
The US Constitution provides no right of armed rebellion. It does provide a right to vote people out of office, but so do the underlying legal principles (whether called Constitutions or not) of many countries, including Canada.
Unless you live in Jersey in some other country , he IS your president ." I agree with the Jimmy Carter comment though . He was a good man , but a lousy president . Bush does not compare to the wimp Carter was as president .
What threat?
Street demonstrators are not a threat given the security deployed.
Al Qaida isn't going to kill their greatest recruiting symbol.
In this age, crazed lone assassins are more the domain of the criminal right, and these guys are his core constituency anyway.
All this fear mongering over 'terror, terror, terror' is nothing more than a carefully constructed campaign strategy to keep the Republican party in office. The terrorism threat level now is not significantly higher now than it ever has been.
But don't cheer because he is now less secure than he should be. He is our president.
'My leader, right or wrong' is what gave the world Hitler.
IF IT WEREN'T FOR AMERICA, YOU WOULDN'T BE FREE TO PROTEST
Anger over the Iraq war is a privilege that Bush has fought hard to protect
by Victor Davis Hanson
THE TIMES OF LONDON
November 18, 2003
Guys, I don't want to get in the way of your various rants, but could I just point out that most of the London Underground network (at least in the areas Bush is visiting) is around 100 feet underground.
During the second world war, these lines were successfully used as bomb shelters, and the Luftwaffe used lots bigger bombs than any suicide bomber could conceivably carry.
A suicide bomber on a tube train could certainly kill and main a lot of his fellow passengers, and wreck the train, but I doubt anybody would even feel it on the surface.
Perhaps so, but Europeans can legitimately disagree, and protest against President Bush's policy of unnecessarily invading Iraq on the false pretext of a supposed imminent threat to use weapons of mass destruction.
Most nations put their own national interest first, or at least that's what they try to do, and America is no exception.
I am sure most Europeans were pretty thankful at the time, although envious of America's industrial and military might.
In a conscious effort to put their differences behind them, "old" Europe formed the European Coal and Steel Community, later to became the European Economic Community, which now has political power including a European Parliament. They even have a common currency. All of these developments were aimed towards political unity.
At least they are no longer destroying themselves in the name of patriotism and looking to America to come to the rescue.
Still today. Cos of the two wars we're looking more careful if a war is
necessary or not. Most of my classmates went during the first war against
the Iraq to a peace demonstration (okay it was during school time and the
half went home), but i didn't cos this war was in my sight right.
The Iraq attacked Kuwait and this attack was wrong. Your army did a
great job.
Today there had been no attack agains a neighbour state, the UN was
allowed to inspect factorys and buildings in Iraq.
When the Iraq kicked the inspectors out few years ago, Bill Clinton
wanted to destroy some suspect buildings and Saddam's palaces, but
Kofi Annan talked with him and he did nothing. It was at the time with
ML and some people were saying if he attacks Iraq, he only want to take
off the public from the ML problem.
This situation would have been the right one for a second war, not the
today situation and that's why in France and Germany many people
dislike the war (and also Bush).
You should have seen the spoof map in Private Eye, with cities like NYC and London in the Levant and Arabia.
What happened to all but one of the 0 year presidents since Jackson is NOT that they got voted out of office.
Of course if Shrub gets hit (BTW, if he re-ups in 2004 the liability follows, see William McKinley) Cheney may be in "invisable mode", meaning he's so hidden that even the 9 wise men can't find hide nor hair of him. We can only hope.
McKinley did not survive the term to which he was elected in 1900. However Lincoln and FDR survived the terms to which they were elected in 1860 and 1940 respectively.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
OMG.
In a world where the governing party is going to dance on the grave of 3,000+ people just for the sake of getting re-elected, anything is possible.
560 KM/hr (347.97 MPH)... too bad it's not in passenger service, as that would probably be one kickass ride.
One has to wonder how all sorts of things like air turbulence will effect the smoothness of the ride in a maglev. Or I could just ask someone who has piloted one...
Mark
Maglev is for 600 miles plus, to make four-hour train trips in half the time and knock out regional jet competition. But at $100 million a mile the construction payoff alone will cost you $600 a ride if you get 10 million riders a year (3 trains an hour, 1200 people a train, 10 hrs a workday).
While I was living in Las Vegas a few years ago, there was talk of a company wanting to build a maglev line from Las Vegas to Anaheim. Right about that time, there was a 7.0 earthquake in the California desert about halfway between Vegas and L.A., and I had to wonder what would have happened to people on a train going 300 mph if such an earthquake hit.
Hardly. I've long been calling for better integration of passenger air and rail services. I think rail should be used in the role now served by commuter airlines. The way I picture it, you'd take a high-speed train from a smaller city directly to the hub airport. Not only would there be codesharing between airlines and rail carriers like the already have in France, but I'd have the airline license their name and logo to the rail carrier.
So if I wanted to visit my family in Mississippi, I'd fly Delta to Atlanta then transfer to a Delta Rail train right at Hartsfield to take me the rest of the way to Meridian or Jackson.
Mark
Can we get that thing to run through SEPTA's tunnels?
Mark
Mark
"Time is Money"
Mark
Slow speed maglevs already have been used for regular passenger service. There was a Maglev shuttle linking Birmingham (UK) Airport with Birmingham Internation Rail Station and Exhibition Center. A distance of (I guess) slightly less than a mile.
It ran from the mid-1980s to 1995 with some success, but was eventually closed because of the unavailability of spare parts (a common problem for non-standard systems).
I rode it several times and it was a comfortable and (at least on my few visits) reliable. After a few years out of service, it has now been replaced by a cable-hauled light rail shuttle on the same elevated structure which (on the basis of one visit) seems equally comfortable and reliable.
I believe there was also a similar system in West Berlin, making use of a part of the old U-Bahn elevated structure that was truncated by the Berlin Wall. After the wall came down, the original U-Bahn line was re-instated necessitating the removal of the maglev system.
Incredible.. I don't know what's this fancination with speed? What they are doing is sad and dangerous. There is NO reason why a train should be going that fast
How fast should trains go, then?
Nothing sad nor dangerous about this at all. What about planes, going 500-650 mph eight miles above the ground? I myself would call that extremely sad and highly dangerous.
Incidentally, if you can get trains that can compete time-wise with airplanes out of this technology, and if this technology can get built on a massive scale, I would use it for long-distance land-based journeys over planes anytime.
If something goes wrong and it always does, you can expect a MAJOR catastrophy on your hands in seconds
Hmm, and things like airliner crashes and highway accidents are somehow less fatal and injurious? Suddenly, this new mode must be perfect? I hope that bed of yours is big enough to hide under from all the dangers in the world…
The pessimistic language is unnecessary, really. Being scared of maglevs is like being scared of bicycles…
Since these rails a fully exposed to the elements and vandalism, anything can go wrong
You mean the same things that “go wrong” with conventional rail? You ask me, there is far less to worry about. Incidentally, all forms of transportation excepting underground subways (for the most part) are exposed to the elements.
2,160 miles per hour!
Yep. The special effects in the short movie are fun to look at from a modern perspective.
Mark
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/speeds/records.htm
(he has to update the Maglev record now)
In fact, has anyone seen the current strip map in the 143's decked out as a J or M.
I reread the threads back at the beginning of October when there were reports of a pair of cars with some test strip map and station locators. Is there anything new about this?
In case anyone is interested in rollsigns there is a great group at Yahoo with some knowledgable people.
Destinators
If you're interested in joining, the moderator has to okay your membership and will initially moderate your posts. If you're interested in this kind of stuff, it is worth the trouble.
Also there was a entry for cta SPIRIT OF CHICAGO. Any ideas on what that is?
CTA riding information
I'm not sure about the "Spirit of Chicago". There was a paint scheme on CTA cars that is referred to as "Spirit of Chicago". I will check with Vince from Destinators, and I'm sure some of the Chicago people here will fill us in.
"Night Owl" is the designation for any service (rail or bus) that has no more than 30 minutes scheduled between any two runs 24/7. In addition to the two main rail lines that have Night Owl service there are about 18 bus lines that offer 24/7 Night Owl service.
Red Line is 24/7
Blue Line O'Hare Branch is 24/7
Blue Line Forest Park Branch is 24/7
Blue Line Douglas Branch is 4am to 12:45am weekdays only
Brown Line Belmont-Kimball is 4am to 2:20am, weekdays, weekends slightly shorter
Brown Line Loop-Kimball is 5am to 12am, weekdays, weekends slightly shorter
Yellow Line is 5am - 10pm weekdays
Green Line All branches is about 4am to 1am, weekdays, weekends slightly shorter
Orange Line is about 4am to 1am, weekdays, weekends slightly shorter
Purple Line Howard-Linden is about 4:45am to 1am, weekdays, weekends slightly shorter
Purple Line Linden to Loop is weekday rush hours only.
The maximum headway on the Red Line is 15 minutes. Owl Service operates every 15 minutes all night. Not bad, as IIRC most Owl Service in other cities is every 30 minutes.
Jim K.
Chicago
Brown Line has 3-minute headways at rush hour, too, and 7 1/2 minute headways from 5am to 11pm outside of rush hour. I wonder how the service levels will change once the station expansions are completed?
And New Lots should really be on the 2 strip map, too, since a few trains run there.
How about the late night A, or a potential Queens local F, or the weekend/night CPW local D many of us think should run?
Hey, it could happen.
That's how it is on my fantasy R190 A division train...
Render/drawings coming soon!
Julian
(Actually, I finished the drawings =))
It seems that no matter what is proposed, not matter how cheap or expensive, there is somebody who will say no. It has gotten to the point that nothing can be built.
I think the answer is to have the Port Authority build everything. Since they are immune from any Federal, State or City building code, they can do what they darn well please. Just look at the Air-Train, the answer to getting to the airport in the 21st century. Could any private citizen or public agency or authority have built such a useless (and ugly) project? I think not.
In this particular instance, I'm glad, as many are, that the nimbys won. I think they were a force for good in this instance, keeping their neighborhoods vibrant and healthy. I just wish modern nimbyism was selective about its targets, instead of fighting rail projects that will ultimately lead to healthier neighborhoods and increased property values.
Like any other force out there, nimbysim seems all too easily harnessed by those with ulterior motives, like the highway construction lobby, the homebuilding lobby, etc.
Mark
I just wish SEPTA was pushing new rail lines hard enough that communities had reason to get involved in any fashion...
Mark
When the Pennsylvania legistature gets it through the political head that the cites are where a lot of the state's poupulation live and work, and the money for lots of the transit problems in Philadelphia will go away.
Pittsburgh doesn't have the SEPTA funding problems since transit is a function of the Port Authority of Alleghany County, which has it's own bonding authority.
SEPTA's other problem is that the agency was put together from so many transit properties, each with it's own labor union. The City has TWU, the Red Arrow has UTU and several of the smaller bus companies were ATU. Labor negotiations are a nightmare, plus the Baltimore option (binding arbitration with a no strike requirement) was never considered, although several Pennsylvania legislators did consult their Maryland counterparts and the MTA here. Apparently no pressure on the TWU and the other transit unions was never attempeted. Thus, Philadelphia has had several strikes since SEPTA took over.
Methinks you (we) are looking to the wrong place for funding.
1) Eliminate FEDERAL and STATE fuel and highway taxes.
2) Eliminate FEDERAL and STATE funding of projects.
3) Create Regional Consortiums of Transportation Users with Taxing Authority. (Including Fuel, Sales, Use Taxes and User Fees / Tolls)
4) Regional Consortiums will allocate funding to Regional Transportation Projects and Systems.
In the NYC area, the Consortium may cover NENJ, SWCT and SNY, NYC and LI.
The Consortium becomes responsibility for all rail and highway infrastructure by:
1) Directly Planing and Contracting Construction and Maintenance Projects
2) Oversight of Bus, Rail and Transit operating agencies including Planing, consturction and operation, be it by direct operation, or through support of existing agencies.
Out here in North Dakota, the Operating Consortium might include Western MN, ND, SD, WY and Eastern MT.
Might include highway, bus, intercity bus, Amtrak, and Air operations.
Elias
Plus, with your regions crossing in and out of state lines, there's neither a congressional nor a state "hero" to come to the rescue when the Highway Trust Funds come a-poaching. If your vision is (apocalyptically) that the Trust Funds have been distributed somehow (what are you going to do with all those gasoline taxes?), then maybe your "overlay" districts (this is usually what Councils of Governments are all about) are what you want to use. But the local governments who are supposed to sign up with, and support, Councils of Governments, are notoriously bad about getting anything done because -- ta daaaa! -- they aren't elected bodies. "Responsibilty" without "Gets Reelected" doesn't usually fly.
When one looks at some of the arguments that NIMBYs in the West Village spewed -- like, "We don't want more people from New Jersey coming into the neighborhood" -- the main, real world issues were drowned in a sea of perceived non-issues, muddled thinking, and silliness. For instance, the number of New Jersey residents pouring out of the Cristopher Streeet PATH station after 9/11 HAD to increase, whether or not the new entrance was built, because WTC station was gone. The new entrance would have merely spread the crowd out among two stairways.
I guess the bottom line is that sometimes NIMBYs are a good thing (like the lower Manhattan Expressway that was mentioned in a different post), and sometimes they are not. In either case however, it seems they tend to deter development and the improvement of infrastructure because of the increased costs.
The PA doesn't seem to agree with you. They only thought it was worth doing if they could get FEMA to pay for it. The minute FEMA said, let's think about this for a while, the PA backed off. If they really think it's important and not just a free lunch, they should be continuing to push it now, but they're not.
Mark
Mark
Wasnt there a negative missing?
Mark
Unfortunately thats how the USA is being developed these days. At the current rate, all of NJ will be border to border McMansions except for the 10-lane highways.
Mark
What the nimby's of today dont understand that if a agency wants to build something then they're trading off something for the other in either case. Again with the SAS, if the people of Second Avenue want the SAS then theyre trading off one thing (homes for example) for increased accesability to the city, and visa versa. These people think that a extra entrance ramp to get on a highway is a major hazard to where it's on the 10pm news, but I notice they dont mind having a golfcourse in land that can be used for low income housing for teenage mothers/fathers who want to do what's good for them. Or they don't mind risking the lives of thousands of people just to keep a few New Jersey people out of Greenwich village!
No, nobody is losing their home. Some people are losing their business, but those can be moved.
You are using the wrong tense. 2nd Ave is a driver's nightmare. It has a hope of becoming slightly better with the SAS, as fewer cabs and buses compete for space.
And yeah, I ment construction with the driver's nightmare thing.
Mark
They'd have a much easier time driving in the city if there were fewer private vehicles on the road.
Mark
What grief? Driving in Manhattan is fun and challenging!!!
Pure NIMBY mentality. One, many people will NOT be forced out of their homes. Two, yea, it's gonna be a drivers nightmare, but only for a short time in small sections at a time, unlike the LIE which the entire Nassau County section is a drivers nightmare and will be for the rest of eternity.
Pure nonsense. Nobody will be forced from their homes. I lived next to a major construction project like that for 4 years (the Vine Expressway). An inconvenience? Yes. But that's all it was.
By the way, NIMBY philosophy is that there's no positive aspect - only negative. :0)
While I can offer my best wishes, I cannot offer you a prayer of any kind.
According to the Sub-Talk archives he hasn't posted since February of 2001 and is no longer active at Shoreline?
Anyone know where he is today and how he's doing ?
Last time I checked membership roster, he was not on it. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
NO!
[What are the IRT Car assignments now, since all the redbirds are retired from service?]
It appears to be the following:
1: 100% R62A (anything above 2150?)
2: 100% R142 (everything below 6751?)
3: 100% R62
4: 90% R142, 10% R142A (1100-1200's, high 7000's, 7100's, high 7600's, 7700's)
5: 100% R142 (high 6700's-low 7000's)
6: 100% R142A (7200's-low 7600's)
7: 100% R62A (all low 5-car sets & almost all singles)
S: 100% R62A (all singles not used by the 7)
The R142A's that were seen in Corona Yard were returned to the 4 line, IIRC, citing power collection problems.)
The shuttle's R-62A's are assigned to the 3 and will soon be assigned to the 4.
The shuttle used to run R-62's (assigned to the 4) before they were unitized in the early 90's, so in a sense the route is going back home.
As the arrival time for the train approached, I was standing between the 8 MU and 10 MU signs on platform A of Woodside station.
For a short part of the line between Woodside and Jamaica, I was almost constantly shifting seats as various points of interest passed by: the Port Washington Line turnoff, the Rego Park church, and Jamaica station. During this time, a conductor was standing by the open cab door, talking with the engineer. He went back as the train approached Jamaica.
We called at Jamaica, across the platform from a track where a Far Rockaway-bound train was to stop. I didn't see it, though. The train I was on was headed for Ronkonkoma and the HMF was the next stop. The doors closed and the train left. As we were making the crawl alongside Archer Avenue, many of the Jamaica POI's came into view. The Jamaica Center station, the abandoned Union Hall Street station, et al. While passing by all this, the conductor came back into the car and collected tickets. He came up to me, took my ticket, looked at it and said to me, "You're going to Hicksville?" I said yes. He then joked, "You're on the wrong train. This train is going to Far Rock!" I laughed it off as he walked away, and I focused my attention to the RFW.
Except for the time we called at the HMF (Hillside Maintenance Facility), where I stared out the window at the various equipment (mostly M7's) in view. After that, a quick jaunt east. I was quite surprised at how fast (and bumpy!) the ride was as the train negotiated the switches west of the Floral Park station.
The rest of the ride to Hicksville was uneventful, though I was quite surprised at how quick the ride to Hicksville was. I was so surprised that I felt a bit disappointed as the "Hicksville" signs came into view. I was like, "Already?"
As I was walking along the platform, I noticed a train of M7's going westbound with the destination, "Hillside-Employees."
It was a fun, but surprisingly fast ride. Had I nothing else to do (and money to burn), I probably would have rode all the way to Ronkonkoma!
So question is, if the police who questioned them had any doubt about their claim of immunity, could they have detained them anyway, pending proof?
That should be pending PROFF
Diplomat Arrested Residence Traffic Subponnea Prosocuted
Search Tix Witness
Diplomatic Agent No No Yes No No
Admin Staff
Tech Staff No 1 No Yes No No
Service Staff No 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes
Consular
Carrer Consular Yes2 Yes Yes No No
Officers
Honnary Consular
Officers Yes Yes Yes No No
Conular Staff Yes 2 Yes Yes No No
1Reasonable constraints, however, may be applied in emergency circumstances involving self-defense, public safety, or the prevention of serious criminal acts.
2This table presents general rules. Particularly in the cases indicated, the employees of certain foreign countries may enjoy higher levels of privileges and immunities on the basis of special bilateral agreements.
Liar.
Chuck
Ben F. Schumin :-)
But if you must compare, here it is:
Transit Connection - Advantage PATH. PATH connections on both sides of the Hudson are numerous. PATCO has good SEPTA connections, but connections in NJ is somewhat lacking
Car Comfort and Styling - Advantage PATCO. Soft seats make a comfy ride. PATH seats are no better than sitting on a NYC subway car.
Stations [Architecture and amenities] - PATCO has climate -controlled areas in the NJ stations [except City Hall/Broadway stops], and platforms are wide and spacious. The older PATH stations tend to be too cramped and claustrophobic. The exception was the original WTC station. That station was a marvel to be inside of.
Got any more comparisons?
There's nothing to connect to! There's only the Atlantic City Line and PATCO connects to that. When the 'doggle opens, PATCO will connect to that too.
Seriously, what is wrong with Camden-Trenton LRT? People don't like having Camden in the name?
BTW, how close to the river does it actually run?
They are quite close together. The west-of-Broadway head house is the low building with the brown roof.
Excuse me...
Broadway-Walter Rand Transportation Center:
NJT Routes:
313 to Vineland/Millville/Southern State-Bayside Correctional Facility/Wildwood/Cape May
315 to Turnersville/Mays Landing/Wildwood/Cape May
316 to Sicklerville (Avandale Park & Ride)/Ocean City/Wildwood/Cape May (Summer season only)
317 to Fort Dix/McGuire AFB/Burlington County College/Lakewood/Asbury Park
318 to Six Flags Great Adventure (summer season only)
400 to Audubon/Blackwood/Camden County College/Turnersville/Siclkerville via Black Horse Pike
401 to Woodbury and Salem
402 to Woodbury and Pennsville via Beckett, Gibbstown and Deepwater
403 to Camden County College or Turnersville via Lindenwold and Erial
404, 405 to Cherry Hill Mall (404 via Westfield Avenue, 405 via Federal Street)
406 to Marlton and Medford Lakes or Albion/Berlin/Pine Hill via NJ 70 and Cherry Hill
407 to Moorestown Mall
408 to Millville via Vineland and NJ 47
409 to Trenton via Willingboro and Burlington; US 130
410 to Woodbury and Bridgeton via Mantua, Mullica Hill, and Pole Tavern Circle
412 to Woodbury, Glassboro, and Elsmee via Pitman and Mantua
413 to Burlington Center Mall via Moorestown Mall and Mt Holly; NJ 38
419 to Burlington via River Road
450 to Cherry Hill Mall via Audubon and Westmont
451 to Echelon Mall via Haddon Avenue
452 to Pennsauken and Cramer Hill via NJ State Aquarium and North Camden
453 to Ferry Avenue Station via Broadway
457 to Moorestown Mall via Haddonfield
551 to Avandale Park & Ride in Sicklerville, Atlantic City, Ocean City, and Marmora via Atlantic City Expressway and Somers Point
313-317, 400-413, 419, and 551 also go back into Philadelphia - Greyhound Terminal for the 313 etc. and 551; Loop around downtown for the 400 series.
River Line to Delanco, Burlington, and Trenton
Ferry Avenue Station, Camden:
403 and 453
Collingswood Station:
451 stops nearby on Haddon Avenue
Westmont Station, Haddon Township:
450, 451
Haddonfield Station:
457
454 to Lindenwold Station via Stratford and Lawnside
455 to Woodbury, National Park, and Paulsboro, or Cherry Hill Mall
Lindenwold Terminal:
403, 454
459 to Echelon Mall or Camden County College and Avandale Park & Ride in Sicklerville
554 to Berlin, Hammonton, Elwood, Egg Harbor City, Pomona, Absecon, Pleasantville, and Atlantic City via White Horse Pike US 30
Atlantic City Line to Cherry Hill and 30th Street Station in Philadelphia or Atco, Hammonton, Egg Harbor City, Absecon, and Atlantic City
Worn-out industrial buildings at Harrison
PATH's and NJT rail yards
The huge rail-truck transfer facility
Unattractive Jersey City industrial neighborhood
And finally, the open cut in the rock past Journal Sq.
PATCO has as scenery:
View of Philly and Camden skyline/waterfront as trains go over the Ben Franklin Bridge
The only other blemish is the trip through the Camden Slums between Broadway and Ferry Ave.
After Ferry Ave, you see the small, charming towns of Collingswood, and Westmont, we do not see much of Haddonfield because the line is depress through the borough, but we see some of Haddonfield's outskirts, with soccer fields and winding suburban roads.
Woodcrest has the huge parking lot, a typical 4 story Suburban office building, and a huge warehouse
Through the SE corner of Cherry Hill Twp, then into Voorhees at Ashland. Between Ashland you see typical suburb, including Echelon Mall.
Lindenwold shows the huge parking lot, and suburban shlock on one side, and the PATCO yard on the other side.
If I had to choose, I would choose the PATCO scenery over the PATH scenery.
The huge rail-truck transfer facility "
So, for railbuffs, PATH beats PATCO hands down!
You forgot the bridge over the Passaic River (or is that the Hackensack River)
Actually, PATCO cars are subway cars in every sense of the word, and the trains run at subway-like frequencies. The distance between stations outside Philadelphia is more akin to a commuter railroad, though the outer sections of Metrorail in DC can be like that, too.
PATH = 62MPH
PATCO = ~70MPH
For thrills, I have to go with PATCO. But for almost as good thrills, I can go on PATH and not schlep all the way down to southern Jersey.
So when WTC reopenes, it's faster to go to WTC from HS via PATH than Subway.
Arti
PATCO = ~70MPH
PATCO cruised at 75 mph when it first opened, but traction motors wore out so fast that they slowed them down to 65. They can get a couple mph above that before ATC slows them down to 65.
Regards,
Jimmy
Steve Loitsch
I wasn't there, this is what I've been told by those who
were involved in the SB track extension.
There was a switch further west, on the museum portion of the
line, for the old dump spur. There was another switch about
half way up Court St which was used when that was the temporary
end of the line just prior to abandonment.
http://nytimes.com/reuters/technology/tech-france-billboards.html
I think this would drive me crazy after a while too!
Does anyone have information regarding the first train and if it will be open to the public or only invited guests. Thanks in advance.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n05/camp01_.html
I still dont think this explains why it takes two years at Court St/Borough Hall!
John
It wasn't working (SURPRISE!) so it basically was a fancier-looking set of stairs.
Also, it smelled like very pungent body odor.
The one down to the 2/3 was boarded up and being de-asbestosized.
Both of the ones down to the N/M mezzanine were out of service.
John
Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Not quite. There wasn't sufficient power. There was a slow order on the entire line until the necessary substations came online. That took nearly a year after trains started rolling to Wavecrest and Rockaway Park. It took them a bit longer to get to Far Rockaway.
The track is already in use but I don't think that you will see any schedule changes until the entire project is completed. There are still only two tracks between Bronxville and Fleetwood and the construction almost certainly will mean that one of them will be out of service at various times.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The third track is intended to enable reverse commuting. With only two tracks, reverse commuting possibilities were limited, because one track was used for local trains, and one for express trains. With the expresses on the center track, more trains can run against the rush hour.
Of course the third track hasn't been extended that far. It would be better if it ran all the way to White Plains.
There is in fact currently one train every half hour in the reverse direction to Hartsdale. So I guess there is a demand for even more service in the reverse direction; maybe Brewster expresses.
More reverse service, more express service, or perhaps both.
Probably the answer is, a little of everything.
What I want to know is, what is the designation for the new center track btwn Crestwood and Bronxville. Is it now Track 2? Will the old southbound track eventually be called Track 4 south of Crestwood?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/17/BAG9933F7T1.DTL
I hope the link works! On the 16th, Breda LRV #1514 collided with PCC #1054 (the "Philadelphia Rapid Transit" car). There were no fatalities, and apparently no major injuries. Car #1054 was rear-ended by the LRV, resulting in major damage to the PCC. I've seen photos, and from the pictures it's apparent that the PCC was actually telescoped by the LRV approximately 4-6 feet. The LRV effectively peeled away the roof and sides of the PCC and pushed the rear end into the car (and around the battery tray, which appeared to have resisted the telescoping action). The LRV sustained serious damage to the front end but not on the scale of the PCC. Thankfully, no passengers were on the PCC - it was undergoing brake testing - and only a few passengers were on the LRV. It doesn't appear that anyone was injured terribly, although a few employees were taken to the hospital. However I would speculate that #1054 won't be in service again soon, if ever. Car #1054 is the third Muni PCC to sustain major accident damage in the last two years or so.
Frank Hicks
Got to thinking, better sit further back in the car just in case that one up front stops suddenly....
Muni does some strange things...no wonder they're always having the problems they do.
The MTA needs a housecleaning - get rid of its board and management from top down. Dump do-nothing Mayor Hahn. Antonio Villaragosa should have been elected mayor, and I hope he runs again.
I'm so angry, I could spit nails! The only positive thing I can say is that all the buses I've seen seem to have had a bath.
I found this on the NJT website when I visited it today. I wonder which of these trips would be fastest from DC to Ridgewood:
1. DC->NWK->HOB->Ridgewood
2. DC->NYP->Seacacus->Ridgewood
3. DC->NWK->Seacacus->Ridgewood
My bet is on 3 but I wonder what the rest of you think. I guess it is also dependant upon the NJT schedules between Newark, New York, and Secacus.
In the Secaucas scenario, there should be enough service between the Corridor trains and the Coast Line trains from Newark Penn to Secaucas to eliminate the need to go into New York. Even though, from New York, you would have 2 extra services (MidTown Direct and Montclair trains) stopping at Secaucas.
OVERLOAD
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"American Pig" internet posting program has failed, please reboot.
You can add an option 4 which might be viable once in a while depending on schedules --
DC - Newark Penn - Newark Broad - Secaucus - Ridgewood
CG
However all the interriors were shot in a set, using computers to paste in the window scenery.
Recopied from Railfan & Railroad, Jan. 2004 edition
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Mark
http://www.dctransitfuture.com/demos/anacostia/
The question I have is how do they plan on integrating light rail with the heavy rail that already exists? This is to say, there can be niche roles for light rail in a city that already has heavy rail For example, light rail can be used for crosstown service, or light rail lines can fan out from heavy rail termini to provide service to less-densly populated areas. But using it for additional lines to and from the CBD seems not to be the best plan for me. If your new line to going to be performing a similar role to the heavy rail lines youalready have, why not build the new lines to be compatible with the old in terms of equipment and such?
Looking at the link, it seems that this line is serving a crosstown service of sorts, and that's good. I think it'd be even better if instead of merely feeding into the Green Line at Anacostia station, it extended northeast to connect with perhaps an Orange Line station. But I guess this is just an experiment, and maybe such an extension is in the plans further down the road.
Mark
mark
This demonstration project from what I have read will be diesel powered, some thing similar to a RDC.
This will significantly reduce the capitol cost of starting up the demonstration line. All that will have to be done is to upgrade the existing roadbed and track on the part of the existing CSX Alexandria Subdivision that will be used for the demonstration line.
John
Mark
This is what the proponents of the surface rail advocates are proposing. However because this is a "demonstration project" I would not expect electric traction to be on the table unless the project end up going beyond just the "demonstration project".
In my opinion the gains in average speeds along the other proposed corridors" do not justify spending the money. Exclusive bus lanes and signal que jumping could achieve the same or better average speeds at a much lower cost.
One of the reasons Lite Rail has razed its ugly head in the Washington DC area as an option for rail transit capitol investment is there are a lot of political people both on the WMATA board of directors and in DC and surrounding local government that flat out feel that spending money on metrorail is not a good way to get funding for new rail transit lines.
One of the other proposed lite rail corridors that is not part of this proposal is along Colombia Pike in Arlington Virginia. Lite rail along this road would turn this corridor that now has established business and housing stock in a wasteland that would ONLY be accessible by way of the lite rail line. It would also reduce the scarce eastwest road capacity from this part of Arlington and Farfax Counties towards Washington.
The only logical option for this corridor in my option is to build the line in subway as metrorail as it was shown on the WMATA adopted regional system map 30 years ago.
John
Is this map available online?
Go to www.chnm.gmu.edu/metro/
Go to www.chnm.gmu.edu/metro/
To be more precise 1968 ARS
However this is not the version that I use when I refer to the WMATA ARS though it does conveys the same information. I use a later version that was approved in 6 11 1970. It is known at the Green Map because the 34" X 44" 1:24,000 scale street map with the metrorail routes printed on it when folded the cover is green.
John
Now I can see the ROW you're talking about. I think that lines like this, which exist to move people to from the CBD should be heavy rail. I think the role for light rail in a city that already has good heavy rail is different. Crosstown service, or connecting less-dense outlying areas to heavy rail termini are good uses for light rail. But this line looks like heavy rail is most appropriate.
Mark
wayne
Does the Department of Homeland inSecurity know?
Does the Post or the Daily News?
I figure that if they had el trains ending at Flanders Simpson Street, there wasn't any express service running through.
BTW, calling it #5 is a double anachronism, since numbers weren't used until 1948, and the original through subway service came from the original subway--i.e., via east side, 42nd and west side, which nevre had a number at all.
And yes, that is the question.
West Farm Expresses began running in 1905, but I don't know if they were expresses on the structure, or just to 96th. If I come across the info, I'll post it.
I also know that the 2nd Avenue El operated to Freeman St rush hours only until 1940.
Wait. I thought that this was the existing service pattern up to that point. If all #5s did not run express, which ones didn't?
It wasn't the late '80s, it was in 1979.
JONN
They did not have the silver roofs or the black trim on the destination sign panels or the end gates.
What can you expect from a writer in LA? :-)
Reference the lyrics to Allan Sherman's parody to "Casey Jones" from the early 60's.
"They passed Columbus Circle doing 82,
Couple of minutes later they were under Bronx Zoo",
and that's the least of it! No surprise that Sherman grew up in Chicago!
Bob Sklar
-Stef
The exterior scenery shots are genuine NYC, but the rest is either on a sound stage in Burbank (I think that's where the ABC studio is) or on a couple of downtown LA streets (if you watch closely you can see cars and actors go by the same building over and over again, even though in different scenes and supposedly different locations).
Another episode showed Assistant DA Claire Kincaid talking to a Jewish girl who knew the Nazi-sympathising killer of another girl; the scene is shot at supposedly a leafy, sylvan (lots of trees, green space) upstate (Westchester?) college campus. A Metro-North MU consist can be seen passing by at grade level in the background. There is no catenary present and no pantographs on the cars. I speculated that this was a Harlem Line shot, but another Subtalker said that this was shot at about 116th Street in Harlem, and the ROW I saw was the main line.
The Middle looks ready to go for the Thru Expresses....
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
The new switch is intended for emergency reroutes, particularly during general orders when single tracking is in effect through 3rd Av-149th St.
I'm not able to determine if it is possible to accept a diverging lineup from Track M for a wrongrail movement onto Track 2 (S/B).
Normal rush hour express service was up and running this morning.
Can't wait till next week when the N/B Track gets done. I'll be witness to wrongrail movements from the Uptown Platform at Jackson Ave!!!
The ultimate railfan window comes from within one's apartment....
-Stef
I know they're not talking about the (7)...
Over the last year, the signals have been in the process of being replaced from East 180th St to 149th St-GC on the 2/5 Lines. As part of the signal upgrades, two new switches have been installed, one eliminated, another switch relocated.
As of this week, the S/B and Middle Tracks had the new signals cut in to a point north of the portal at 3rd Av. By this weekend, the N/B Track will be complete, also from a point north of 3rd Av-149th St.
The addition of new switches will enable reroutings of trains due to emergency situations, General Orders, etc.
One new switch has been installed immediately north of the staion at Jackson and Westchester Avs, which allows trains to move from the downtown track to the middle track. The second switch, which is south of Jackson Av will allow movements of trains from the middle track to the uptown track. It will be possible to for a train on the northbound track in the station at Jackson Av to wrongrail south under signal protection and utilize the new switch, and head into 3rd Av on the right track.
One switch was removed south of Prospect Av, which previously permitted trains on the middle track to cross over to the downtown track and make a station stop at Jackson. During previous GOs which required single track thru 149th St, trains would come into Jackson and reverse into the middle track at Prospect before continuing south.
At the point where the middle track ends (or begins), the junction of the middle track was shifted a few feet. A "Y" switch was installed.
I was making references to seeing a Test Train utilize the newly installed switch north of Jackson Av last night. I hadn't seen it previously.
Hope This Helps,
Stef
www.forgotten-ny.com
There were some nice decorative touches to a car with a Gollum model riding back and forth and some lucky people were given the DVD set.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
For those unfamiliar, Northport station is a fur piece from Northport Village, and the trolley used to connect the two. The track still exists on Main Street, complete with a curve and switch into the now-disappeared carbarn. They could actually use this trolley back!
Would there be any need for that?
Arti
Arti
Get rid of the bus.
Only a small portion of the curren bus route was the trolley.
Kind of an expensive proposal.
Arti
I guess you're too young to have ridden the Fineview line in Pittsbugh. Made 25A look like Kansas.
Cable Cars!!!
A Newsday story on that trolley line a couple of years ago stated that the last time the trolley ran was the year the last D-Type (Triplex) units were delivered (1926). Strange why the track down the center of the street remained exposed for all these years. I understand Northport won't remove or pave over them.
Bill "Newkirk"
I not so sure. After 77 years of disuse, would the rails support the weight of a trolley or LRV ? I don't think so.
Bill "Newkirk"
If they wanted to restore useful service to Northport station, they would probably have to renew all the existing track and build a lot more, as well.
As for a need for the service to the LIRR, just look at the Port Jeff Schedule. The Northport Station has very limited service and has only 2 DM trains a day. Most commuters drive to Huntington because of more extensive service. This statement refutes the comment of another poster regarding a need for the service.
Also shortly after I moved to Greenlawn in 1976 there was one or two horsedrawn trolleys going down Main Street in the warm weather as a tourist thing. It failed, so the precedent for trolleys in Northport is not good.
I would scarcely call Northport's service "very limited." As the LIRR's schedule shows, there is regular service throughout the day, with several trains each rush hour. Service to Northport seems comparable to that on the Oyster Bay line or the Montauk line from Bay Shore to Patchogue, better than on the Montauk line east of Patchogue, and far better than on the Greenport line.
Would that justify a trolley service?. Remember that passengers would have to walk to get on the trolleys and Northport is vey hilly and not condusive to long walks, especially in inclement weather. You don't want to be at the bottom of Main Street during a heavy rain storm.
Weekend service every 90 minutes is a joke. No way are you going to encourage tourists from the city to take the LIRR and then a trolley on such limited service.
One possible solution would be to double track to Smithtown (or all the way to PJ) and increase service.
Also with a single track the reverse commuting cannot happen. First train e/b 0302, next 0717, then 0904 nad 1033. Westbound is even worse. There is no train between 1653 and 1941
Would it be physically possible to run a regular hourly service from Jamaica?
On the other hand, the hourly weekend service on the Ronkonkoma line is not adequate, at least during certain parts of each weekend day, as the trains are packed.
I like the Boston set up on the Green and Red Lines. Have shorter trains but more of them so you don't have to seemingly wait forever for a train.
Actually, that's been proposed and there was even a study (now 10+ years old, I believe) of trying 15 minutes service on the Babylon Line.
But current rules require a 3-person crew on almost all passenger trains, and the LIRR is unwilling to try to negotiate down to two in order to operate more service.
Newsday story
I am lucky as the east home signal to HUNTINGTON AVE interlocking is located at the mouth of the Charles tunnel. It is approach lit so I get warning of approaching trains from the east. Also, as CSX calls signals I can use my scanner for advance warning when they call the signals at CLIFTON PARK int and MT ROYAL int.
The pictures are located here:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/09-10-03_BALTIMORE_PICS_1/
and here are some of the best.
Here is CR 8754 working hard on the severe grade eastbound. Note all the exhaust pouring from the tunnel. Just imagine if that diesel were a steam engine. The sound of these engines straining hard up the grade reverberates for blocks.
Here is CSX #5001 painted with a special diversity banner. I guess that'll mean they need to start hiring a few token compotent managers.
Here is a nice shot of #637 from the side.
And finally some light rail action at Northern Ave.
The arches are on the Howard St Br.
CLARLES used to be called B&P JCT and the lower floor of B&P tower still exists. When the Baltimore Station was rationalized Amtrak renamed the interlockings.
And an old PRR building dating from perhaps the teens.
Other places where NEC narrow to 2 tracks are the Gun Powder, Bush and Susquehenna River Bridges. There are also 2 tracks coming out of Washington (beginning at Avenue Interlocking) to Landover Interlocking.
Michael
Washington, DC
One teeny critisism: Sice you are living in Baltimore, please bother to learn the street names.
It's NORTH AVENUE.
Sheesh. We get it from the TV types who roll into town.
Not from the intelligent people in graduate programs.
I suspect there's an insurance question from the 2001 tunnel fire that's still unresolved.
Approach Medium
STOP
CLEAR
Scrap Aluminum Cubes
Molten sulpher tank car, note the overflow
Cargo container in a double stack well.
Another thing about the use of the FRED....when one is installed on the rear of a train, the controlpanel in the locomotive has to have the serial number of the FRED entered, so it communicates ONLY with its own rear end.
(Kinda like many SubTalkers, always talking to their own rear ends....!)
Thanks, John!!!
Carles
St Paul
EMD Geeps 2651 and 2523, then GE Dash 40/44's 7800 and 7912 and finally EMD Geep 2507 still in the old Gray Ghost paint scheeme.
-Stef
yes
or North Jersey and South Jersey.
Still, even though the railroad is Conrail Shared Assets, the locomotives are owned by NS and CSX. The engines still in Conrail Blue just haven't been repainted yet by the new owner.
Before you could easily play lease unit bingo.
When you have to run large nubers of leased units to move your trains it's a sign you can't manage your own motive power fleet.
Wrong. Leased power is cheaper for peak loadings and has lower maintenance costs. The reason for large number of lease power on CSX in the past year can be attributed to a number of things: (1) mess after the Conrail merger; (2) cheap lease power available due to economic stagnation; (3) CSX has been winning more traffic than Conrail fleet mgrs planned. (But yields might be lower -- I don't know what their marketing strategy is).
And a picture of a very interesting moth I caught.
Mark
Have you thought about selling pics to railroading magazines? The moth picture is almost good enough to show up in a magazine too.
You could get paid some bucks for this. Of course, those photos would then belong to the publications.
It's pretty difficult, and almost not worth it. I had a picture reprinted in a physics textbook, and to facilitate that I had to send them a photograph or a negative -- the photograph itself cost me like $2 to reprint, and I made all of $10.52 (or something of that elk) in royalities. In Mike's case, they are digital, so he could just e-mail them, but it's still a hassle, and to get your photographs noticed, you really have to go to some advertizing effort. In my case they found my photo on a website.
I had tried sending photos to rail magazines. They weren't interested, even if the photographs were pretty good and timely (I was on a test-run one time, took night time photographs of the test train, had them developed the next day and sent them in; the magazine had their own photographer out and photographed the test train and had inferior photos, but they used his).
AEM7
Don't give up. Perhaps one of the editors will be impressed with your work and will decide to call you on an assignment. There is such a thing as freelance, and people do make money on it. Your "samples" tell the editors you have ability.
Frankly I am guessing its some sort of "hassle" barrier they have put up to avoid being flooded by photos.
AEM7
However, with the increasing quality and definition of digital cameras, I suspect that the rules will change soon. But there will still have to be some barriers for submission, if only to keep the magazine picture editor sane!
If you want examples of what I consider to be supperior photos check out my Springfield trip set.
Mark
GO RAVENS!!!!
I never understood why a direct connection was not part of the original plan when the subway was built.
Mike wondered yesterday why the Post seems to be the only one carrying this story. Perhaps the reporter is relying on informants from the agencies involved.
More likely it suits the bent of a "Right wing" journal to report it, while it does not suit the bent of "Left wing" organs to write about it.
Elias
I don't see it so much as a consequence of the Post's conservative nature, but rather a result of the paper's extreme anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bias.
Well, based on the last two lines (pasted below) from yesterday's Post article one can assume that there is at least some cause for concern.
"The latest case was not the first time employees at Iran's U.N. mission have been caught shooting video in suspicious circumstances.
In June 2002, two security employees at the mission were caught casing the Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge and entrances to tunnels leading into Manhattan."
When you go to the website, there will be a hyperlink that will allow you to download a flyer called "The Photographer's Right."
This is a MUST for all rail photographers! This, once and for all, will put to rest any question about the legality of taking photos. It is vital to our freedom as Americans to know and understand our rights.
It means nothing while you are standing there getting a ticket from an overzealous cop.
To the contrary, it means a lot. If the cop abuses his/her authority even after being informed of the law, and your rights, and cannot cite a specific ordinance to support the citation or physical intimidation, and especially when he/she refuses to consult a superior, you have established grounds for a successful lawsuit.
There was a rash of summonses and questionings over the summer, that I was a part of. It's died down, or people just aren't posting about their experiences.
No one has ever approached me since. I carry my judgement with me. I'm not going to show it to the cop, but I can always photocopy it and enclose it as evidence with any new summonses.
I agree, but it's old news that deserves to be repeated.
That's where you have to take a stand.
An example is the musician who took SEPTA to court. Now, first off, let me say that I know and have respect for many people in SETA's hierarchy, but no one is immune from hardening of the categories or occasional foolishness.
So SEPTA police arrested this musician several times. In each case, the charges were dismissed; finally he sued and won. The result is that SEPTA was forced to acknowledge his right to play music on SEPTA property and not harass him.
This works in SEPTA's favor too - a consistent and fair policy reduces SEPTA's legal liability. Had they had such a policy to begin with, there would have been no lawsuit, no police activity required, no SEPTA lawyers tied up in court.
NJ Transit is being lazy here. Somebody needs to wake 'em up.
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
The issue here is that those who make these policies have to be convinced what needs to be done, not those who are just "following orders."
1) You have the right to be sent to Gitmo and detained indefinitely as an illegal combatant.
2) End of rights.
That is ALL we need.
Wrong. I showed that to a police officer on the platform at Woodside on the 7 and he referred to his copy of the rulebook which did not have the sentence that says photography is permitted. My copy, which had been downloaded earlier that same day, was worthless. The officer said that the rules changed after 9-11 and that I probably had an old copy.
The provision still stands, as stated in the ruling of my Dismissed summons.
Appeal by mail makes the process painless. I appealed by mail, and never had to appear before a judge or anything.
With the process of appealing by mail so easy to do, why create more hassle with the cop at the scene? Take the ticket, fight it, and have confidence that you would beat it.
Yes. Which is why I always carry an updated copy.
It wouldn't have mattered; the cop had his "official" rule book.
But it also got me thinking about human nature. In fairness to the security people, imagine you're sitting at home and idily glancing outside you notice someone (standing on public property) is photographing your house or building. Or your car. I bet 90% of all people would react negatively. And depending on your mood you might run outside and say, "Hey! That's MY car you're photographing, cut it out!" Then I thought, 'Yeah, I can see myself doing that.' And then I realized, okay so that's how the cops, employees or securiy people feel when they see someone taking photos on their job. And why, if later on they have to go to court, they're usually unable to clearly explain why they felt the photographer to be an immediate and explicit threat.
Man, this issue is like unraveling an onion! ;-D
Not quite the same thing. Your house is private property and not something that ordinarily would be worth photographing. As a result, there would be something odd about a stranger taking pictures of your house and you'd have a right to be offended (unless maybe you have a very unusual-looking house). A train station or other rail facility, in contrast, is at least semi-public, and more to the point is something that people might well find worth photographing.
You may get offended, but there could be good reasons for it. My wife and I once got seriously hassled by someone when we stopped to look at a house where a favorite aunt of hers had lived years ago. The guy demanded (in very unfriendly terms) that we leave even after explained why we were there.
My wife also once started to take a picture of the truck of a contractor working at a neighbor's building so that she would have his name on record in case we needed a contractor. He screamed at her not to photograph his truck.
Just goes to shows there are a lot of paranoid people out there.
So long as you were on public property, he had no authority to order you to leave. Had he used force or threat of force, he would have been subject to arrest and criminal prosecution.
The big question is how this would be accomplished. Do they intend to run an uptown local up the downtown Lexington Av. line track into the shuttle Grand Central Station track 1, transfer to a shuttle on track 4, and then ride up into the Broadway line and up the local to 145th St?
Or am I taking "reenactment" too literally?
Bob Sklar
Mark
But a few years ago we had kids putting stone over several meters on a
track causing a train to derail.
Axle Nut? That's a pretty small object. Was it a whole wheel rim?
Here's the forum address (it's in german):
http://www.absence-of-fear.de/hosted/rmn/main.php
Click "off-topic" and then "Strassenbahn strzte in Fluss"
News magazin link: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,274508,00.html
OK, but seeimg that an entire fleet of R-143's has been added to the East New York fleet , and the J/M/L/Z were entirely R40-R42 before , I severely there is a shortage of R42's to run on the J/M/L/Z . The real question is if this train was in service , which I doubt . I never heard about a J R-143 yet , however someone who lives along the Jamaica El said they saw one go by his house once .
Peace,
ANDEE
VC Madman
As a matter of fact, R143s run to/from Far Rockaway in testing service (NOT REVENUE SERVICE) all of the time.
Most likly they were testing,i don,t think it was in emergency revenue
service.
til next time
Well, either it was 1) moving, or 2) standing still.
I fail to see what else it *could* have been doing there.
: )= Elias
btw, I also saw a R38 at 71st Ave back in October...I was suprised to see a C train in the station.
I didn't see it personally, but some KKs were supposed to have been operated with Standards, so that would have been on the 6th Avenue Local. Also some Standards had GG signs and I remember rumors they would be used in service, but I don't know if it happened.
The 2800 series cars had the signs. It was added on and stated "GG Local". There were any eye witness reports that they ran there. Also, since the destination signs had "Forest Hills" on them, Smith-9th Sts. had to be added to it.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
Was it 6 cars? Those numbers don't compute. All the cars you list were B types at the end of their service lives except 2498, which was a BT paired with 2499, and 2675 which was an A type.
2424 should have been with 2627 and 2425. 2773 should have been hanging out with 2772 and 2771.
2645 was paired with 2459, as well as 2458. But my notes say that that unit appeared on the scraplist in 1965 (9/9/65).
So either (1) you got the numbers wrong, (2) there was some weird rejiggling of B types I never heard of, (3) you saw a ghost train, or (4) all of the above. :)
2424 was coupled to 4012 & 2425 to make a permanent BX set
2459 was coupled to 4029 & 2458 to make a permanent BX set
2498 was coupled to 4049 & 2499 to make a permanent BX set
I am aware that in their last years the 4000 series trailers were scrapped and replaced with 2600 series cars changing the BX to B sets.
Paul, you seem to have the info. How about cars 2606 & 2607? Did they remain A cars all their lives or were they also used to replace 4000 series cars as well?
I left the city in 1957 so it might have been reassigned after that.
Yes, they lost the trailers after there were enough R27s to scarp everything considered "oddball," the SIRTs, MS, modified Lo-Vs and, yes, the 4000 trailers, ironically the newest Standards.
I liked riding the trailers because it was so quiet inside ... no motor noise, and of course, no Axiflow fans.
How about cars 2606 & 2607? Did they remain A cars all their lives or were they also used to replace 4000 series cars as well?
They were A-types to the end. The lowest numbered 2600 to become a B-type was 2615, between 2400 and 2401.
It a keyboard fault.
Just like Sallamm's PROFF.
Exceot it's a one-time goof.
In Baltimore we refer to mass scrappings as purges.
Our 1956 purge was the biggie - everything oddball, plus 85% of the work equipment.
It was not a happy time for the streetcar folks.
Sorry for posting incorrect information.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Isn't that what his question was ?
Interesting about the KK . I always seen it with R-9's or some IND equipment . It appears that the IND equipment made it to the BMT much more than the BMT equipment mad it to the IND . Was the IND's equipment in better shape once merged ?
The BMT was chronically short of subway equipment, so there was never a surplus to use on the IND. By the time of Chrystie Street, there weren't that many Standards left to use on the IND, except that the aforementioned GG and KK *may* have occasionally been covered by Standards.
Regards,
Jimmy
The IND charter we rode the other week was in much better shape motor-wise.
wayne
Someone once posted here that they rode on an R-16 A train in the 50s as far as 34th St. I often wonder myself just how fast the R-16s were along CPW in those days.
D-types were regular equipment on the Brighton Local, but that was well before the connection opened. The only time I ever saw D-types on the Brighton Local to Manhattan was on extra weekend trains carrying crowds from Ebbets Field, but that ended after 1957 (sniff!).
Yes Arnold's inaugural was great and we now have the Terminator as our state's Chief Executive. Isn't California great?
The comment about Arnold might be a bit early. Come back in a year and see if everything's peachy keen.
Reminds me of the old saying: Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
I was in heaven.
Its really uplifting to see something actually being built at the WTC site instead of all this endless bickering.
Who was Tishman? Was he somehow affiliated with the old Salomon Brothers?
I worked at 7WTC for 5 years, '91-'96, but don't remember the Tishman Center moniker.
CG
That being said, I'm pretty sure the new building will be called 7 WTC. It'll be a great day when that building opens for business.
I understand the new building is 52 stories' tall, vs. the previous one (47).
That being said, why do LIRR engineers insist on blowing their train horns when passing these grade crossings? Fortunately, I live far enough from the line itself to keep the honking from being downright unbearable but sometimes it can be very annoying. Most troublesome are those occasions when the operators of late night or very early morning (like 2:00 a.m.) trains insist on blasting their horns before the trains even start to move out of the station and keeping them blasting until they've cleared the grade crossing! Sometimes I feel that the engineers are doing that on purpose, like some sadistic joke, to wake people up. That's really wrong.
In my opinion, honking train horns at grade crossings is an archaic practice left over from the Choo Choo Charlie "STOP - LOOK - LISTEN" days of yore and should therefore be done away with. At the very least, the sounding pattern should be changed from its annoying, repetative "LONG - LONG - short - LONG" pattern to a single honk. While there may still be some ungated grade crossings on the LIRR system, they certainly do not exist anymore in the built-up areas of Nassau County. Today's grade crossings are very well protected by sight and sound warnings, and the train horns add very little to safety. The Cedarhurst portion of the Far Rock line has had gates at the crossings since at least 1910 (I've seen photos of the crossings from that period). Motorists and pedestrians have plenty of warning of approaching trains, thanks to the aforementioned gates and bells, and there is simply no need for engineers to blast their horns, causing horrid noise pollution and disrupting the sleep of many. And the horn blasting won't stop anyone from dashing across the tracks in front of an oncoming train - they've already ignored the bells and gotten around the gates, so the honking won't help any.
I once heard that local municipalities have the power to promulgate laws against horn blasting at grade crossings within their borders. If that's true, I may very well ask the Cedarhurst Board of Trustees to look into enacting such a law at the next public hearing.
Uhmmm, maybe because it's the law - around the country?
Did you read the rest of the post, especially the last few sentences?
I get on a train before 7:00 AM and people assume that even though the gates are down the train is going to stop in the station before the gate, so they cross it. The end result is a long and loud horn blast most mornings as the train passes through the gates, defeating the point of the no-horn arrangement.
This complaint reminds me of the people in Howard Beach who moved out near the airport and then whine about not being able to sleep due to the noise from neighboring JFK airport which was there 15 years before most of the houses were built.
If you advocate for a safety-related change, you need to show how safety would be affected by the proposed change.
No, but others can still say "who forced you to move there?" if you didn't like the pre-existing condition.
There are certain things that come with the territory. A citizen is not guaranteed, nor should he desire, a life free of reminders of just how dangerous existence is. I would most definitely move out of anyplace where train whistles or fire alarm sirens are banned.
VC Madman
And let me guess, you moved there **before** 1910, and as a result, you had no idea that there was going to be a train line running through there. At least the people who moved there **after** 1910 had the sense to realize that there would be the noises and vibrations that accompany an adjacent train line.
Sure, go to your village board and see if something can be done. I doubt it, though, because of safety concerns, very few exception orders are ever issued. I believe (not sure) that you need some alternate presence, like a human, to make sure traffic doesn't cross. If your village willing to pay for that? If so, you might have a case.
People are well known to go around crossing gates. Interestingly, people who wouldn't run around a red light will go around gates. People are used to train sounding to know the train is actually coming. Without that they could be blindsided--literally.
Most of the newer units I've been in have only the engineer-controlled button on the desktop control panel nowadays.
I guess I'm the exception to the rule. I go through lights ALL the time but would never think of going through an RR crossing with the gates down and lights flashingt!!!
:)
It's like business parks that are 35mph with passing zones. There's always some moron pushing 60+ and then procedes to tailgate the whole way instead of passing or going on the sidewalk or whatever. Why's one thing okey and the other isn't? Where's the line drawn?
Next time you hear a train horn blowing, thank all the selfish inconsiderate people who went around gates and crossings and committed "suicides" in front of locomotives. The horn is to warn them.
Jersey Mike did a good reprint story post with the name including Mr. Magoo. That'll be your answer. Either most cars shouldn't be around anything including other cars for safety, or people shouldn't be driving them without a proper license. This maybe the only type of intersection i'll agree with putting a red-light camera up.
I think the difference is mental. People are acculturated to the idea that a red light is mandatory, but train gates are for safety.
To put it another way, with a red light they're afraid there's a cop lurking and they'll get a moving violation, but with a railroad gate, they're simply risking their lives and "I'll be careful."
I don't think that a lot of people are aware that running crossing gates are a moving violation also.
Elias
Like the (presumably) late, lamented Traingirl.
This is exactly why the horns must be sounded.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
AEM7
As for the crossing gates/bells activating and staying down during the blackout....the gates operate on batteries, usually in a ground level box next to the crossing. The batteries provide enough power for the lights and bells to work, and to lower the gates.
The relays to reset the gates and raise them work off regular electrical current. As it wasn't available, the gates stayed down.
Bottom line....wasn't the railroad there BEFORE you moved in?????
The horns are necessary, but they cannot compensate for every possible stupidity or impulsivity.
The first blast of the horn indicates that the train is within seconds of reaching the crossing. This discourages the motorist or pedestrian from thinking "it's a false alarm."
"trains insist on blasting their horns before the trains even start to move out of the station and keeping them blasting until they've cleared the grade crossing! Sometimes I feel that the engineers are doing that on purpose, like some sadistic joke, to wake people up. That's really wrong. "
Federal law and FRA regulations require that the horn be sounded and that the last blast be sustained until the locomotive or lead MU has crossed the rail/road intersection. Failure to do so can result in disciplinary action against the crew, and may offer grounds for a negligence lawsuit against the railroad if anyone is hurt by a train at an RR crossing.
"I once heard that local municipalities have the power to promulgate laws against horn blasting at grade crossings within their borders."
To my knowledge, this is false; however you may want to inquire of the FRA or the Long Island Railroad's legal department.
"And the horn blasting won't stop anyone from dashing across the tracks in front of an oncoming train - they've already ignored the bells and gotten around the gates, so the honking won't help any. "
A few people will foolishly choose to ignore it; however many others have been saved by this very procedure. It is a reminder that the bells and lights are not merely decorations, and lets the person know the train really is coming.
"Most troublesome are those occasions when the operators of late night or very early morning (like 2:00 a.m.)"
Have you considered installing storm windows or insulated windowe in your home?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=585789
"In my opinion, honking train horns at grade crossings is an archaic practice left over from the Choo Choo Charlie "STOP - LOOK - LISTEN" days of yore and should therefore be done away with."
Oh yea, lets do away with history while we're at it! Stop look and listen is just another safety procdure to make sure that your arrogant ass doesn't wind up in the morgue.
"they certainly do not exist anymore in the built-up areas of Nassau County."
I beg to differ, there are still some crossing without gates. The old central line, which has recently(I don't know why) been seeing traffic and doesn't have any gates at any crossings. Same goes for NYA's Bushwick Branch
"they've already ignored the bells and gotten around the gates, so the honking won't help any."
Uh yea, it actually will. Most who breach the gates are those who have just gotten off a train. They think the gates are down for their train, which is still stopped in the station, so they start to go. Then comes another train not stopping at that station and BAM! Now, how could this have been prevented? Uhh, lets see, uhh. OO! I know! A HORN! The passing train would've sounded its horn, letting people kno, ok, this isn't you train, I aint stoppin, and by now, if you're dumb enough to go under/around the gates, your screwed.
Also, your statement about awaking sleeping people? Totally void. They saw the gates there, and probably heard the bells and horns too, so it was their fault for moving there and having to deal with it.
Regards,
Jimmy :P
Worked like a charm.
Does the NYC Subway really exist (131877)
It still has me rolling on the floor.
You can see more information on both volumes here. I checked out volume two from the BU library but would like to purchase a copy of my own. Does anyone know what the price for the book would be today. It is 500+ pages with lots of maps and details about plans for each neighborhood of the city as well as sections of LI, Jersey and Conn.
Thanks for your help.
-Harry
The volume you want is available at Alibris.com. The bad news it is $450.00.
--Mark
http://www.wtcsitememorial.org/finalists.html.
Its difficult from the photos on the web site to put the memorials into place in the WTC site. There will be an exhibition in the Winter Garden, which will probably be interesting to look at.
John
Who the HELL are these 13 "Jurors". Who voted them into office? Who the f--k do they report to? The holds them RESPONSIBLE for their decisions?
This needed to have been put to a vote with selected designes appearing first on the primary ballot and then finalists on the general election ballot.
I find most of them to be very interesting.
If you start down this slippery slope, you end up with California, where the government cant do anything, because the citizens tie its hands behind its back, with the direct vote propositions.
The final designs will be relatively uncontroversial. Such is the nature of these things. I will bet money however, that whatever is finally built will be reasonably aesthetic and fit well into its surroundings. (See my original complaint about not being able to put the designs in context).
In the mid 1980s, I worked at 55 Water Street and could watch the construction of the Vietnam Veterans memorial between 55 Water and 5 New York Plaza in what was to become the Vietnam Veterans Plaza.
On unveiling day, there was a big ceremony attended by Kotch and Cuomo and who knows which other bigwigs. I didnt watch. By the time I left the office to go home around 7pm, the memorial was covered with mementoes and photographs, by people who had lost someone.
Very moving.
The site is owned by the PA. The PAs governing body is made up of appointees by the states of NY and NJ. So, your last vote for Pataki (somewhat) indirectly influenced the choice of jurists.
OTOH, if you open it up to mass voting, you tend to get the lowest common denominator. This way, the jurors know how to look "behind" the drawings and not get the wool pulled over their eyes. The plainest-looking ones (like the Japanese entry) are often the most stunning when they are built.
It can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff however.
While direct democracy has problem when it comes to laws, I think that when it comes to choosing design it can serve to avoid eyesores and deadzones.
On unveiling day, there was a big ceremony attended by Kotch and Cuomo and who knows which other bigwigs. I didnt watch. By the time I left the office to go home around 7pm, the memorial was covered with mementoes and photographs, by people who had lost someone.
Very moving.
Yeah, touching at the time but what do people think of it now?
Many landmarks worldwide, including the original WTC, probably never would have been built if you applied those criteria.
While direct democracy has problem when it comes to laws, I think that when it comes to choosing design it can serve to avoid eyesores and deadzones.
People should choose their favorite designs when it comes to their kitchen cabinets or personal wardrobes. No way I want the public at large (including myself) to make the final decision on a plan for something as important as the WTC site.
Yeah, touching at the time but what do people think of it now?
Generally, not much, although the recent renovation is a slight improvement. But it's a hard site to work with using any design for a memorial ... it's wedged into an irregular space set between three huge, boxy office buildings, alongside the constant traffic of the FDR Drive, and next to the Downtown Heliport.
One of the people deciding on the WTC memorial design is the designer of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC, which is something else that many people didn't like when first proposed but which nearly everyone embraced after it was built.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/138283p-122887c.html
The Knight NewsQueens College's newspaper, has done a couple of articles about the poor quality of the campus' bathrooms.
No need for a "Station Restroom Policy" (unless you want ugly puddles in dark corners)
I like the pilot program at the Hutington station of the self cleaning restroom.
Also before, the policy was you can ask the station manager to use the station restroom, but it was at his/her discretion to allow it.
As for self-cleaning restrooms - we have them all over the city. You plug in 50 cents and get to use it. Could be implemented in a transit system too, especially since you cannot leave the system in order to use a restroom in a nearby restaurant or something because then you'd have to pay the fare again.
Only thing I can think of with Vienna is that, having used the Vienna restrooms once back in I'd like to say 1997, that they are a ways down a corridor, but if you have a WMATA employee show you there anyway, I don't see the problem. Who knows...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
One time I could find no toilet, washroom, restroom, bathroom, lavatory or water closet, so for no other reason I caught the Staten Island ferry, which was well equipped. Later I found what I was looking for, but it was called a "comfort station".
They would usually give me the story about they are not allowed to, but always make an exception and let me use it anyway.
Thank goodness we don't depend on it otherwise.
WMATA could learn from these people...
Why?
We have anough problems with US weather. We don't need Chinese weather.
I'm a sensitive guy. I've heard your complaints about unfair "dumping" of weather from around the world on hardworking Americans, just trying to make the 5:59 from Westport. So I have decided that America, for once, will tell the World Trade Organization what weather it can and can't send.
This is consistent with our great tradition of free enterprise. After all, America is where we invented freedom of weather. How could George Washington have walked across the Hudson to escape from slavery if we hadn't had freedom of weather?
Starting tonight, any country sending ice, sleet or temperatures below freezing will have leaves dumped on its railroad tracks.
Come to think of it, aren't they supposed to have restrooms as part of a station rehab project? I haven't noticed any in the new building or the rehabilitated original building.
Does the Fairway at 72 St have a "cold room" like the one at 128 St does? The Uptown cold room is pretty neat. I've only been at the 72 St Fairway to buy cheap kosher bagels. And I've only been at Fairway Uptown when I have a car to drive my groceries home.
The uptown Fairway at 132nd really blew my mind the first time I stumbled into their refrigerated room. It's an enormous room that is refrigerated and all the meat and chicken and butter and perishables are out on ordinary shelves. My guess is that the building used to be a meat processing plant.
Although the 74th street store doesn't have a cold room, it does have some of the most congested aisles of any store I've been in and customers with attitudes. I really love to watch their workers push a string a carts right down the middle of aisle where people paying at the checkout counter. It's an amazing store.
I've gotten hooked on their turkey pot pie, shepherd's pie and very new roast salmon pot pie. I also love their chicken noodle soup. I find their prepared stuff to be very comforting foods.
BTW, We did some of 34th street's controllers, and they now have a dial in feature that allows us to keep tabs on them. If you see the doors on one acting up some day, it might just be me >:) Without going into hyper detail, we know basically what's going on in almost real time. So, if you mess with the big red switch (stop switch!), someone will in fact know.
This might replace the bizzare system that some automatic elevators in the system use. I don't know much about it, other than it involved stepper switches and pulses and stuff, and a few interesting interface things on our end.
Car switch (i.e., operator runs it) elevators are actually quite common in NYC, though manual doors/gates is generally less so. I know of a few pure DC types in active use, we're one of the few controller firms that will still build one. Most manual D/G types are stupid little freight ones, though.
Oddly, many recent car switch elevators are actually PLC based, and have quite a lot of computer sophistication to them. i.e., they're more idiot proof. The really simple types just have an anti abuse relay that prevents you from beating up the thing. Mostly dumbwaiter, etc application...
Are there any manual elevators left in the NYC subway system? I'd love to see the 'other end' of all those cables some day...
http://www.amtrak.com/press/atk20031118183.html
Amtrak is increasing capacity all over the country. There are three press releases, national, California, and Northeast. I provided the Northeast link.
I have seen Clockers with Septa and LIRR cars, presumably so the Amfleet stock can go on longer journeys.
Last year, at least one set of equipment on Wednesday is an Amtrak train that begins in Baltimore. It's a MARC train that terminates in Baltimore converted to Amtrak. On Sunday, there's one train that terminates in Baltimore because it's MARC equipment for the Monday rush.
Trains that terminate in New Haven and turnaround to come back to Washington are usually MARC equipment. Double deckers won't fit in the Hudson tubes.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
The date is May 7, 1963! And Corona is all R36! How is this possible? The 7 wasn't all 36 until mid/late 1964 and even R33WF singles debut until late 1963.
-Stef
All that originally showed was the little grey box with the X that shows an unavilable link.
I looked at the root of the post, and copied the Geocities link into my browers location line and viewed the photo. Nice shot with all the cars in blue and white and several named.
When I went back to Subtalk and the post, the picture, linked to Geocites, showed in the post. The shot is sitting in my cache, so the next time, back to the grey box.
You might consider WebShots for hosting photos. chuchubob uses it and never has a link problem. He builds the link into the post with html coding, and you get see them on your Webshots site.
All that originally showed was the little grey box with the X that shows an unavilable link.
I looked at the root of the post, and copied the Geocities link into my browers location line and viewed the photo. Nice shot with all the cars in blue and white and several named.
When I went back to Subtalk and the post, the picture, linked to Geocites, showed in the post. The shot is sitting in my cache, so the next time, back to the grey box.
You might consider WebShots for hosting photos. chuchubob uses it and never has a link problem. He builds the link into the post with html coding, and you get see them on your Webshots site.
CG
I'll admit I HAVE HAD THOUGHTS of a handle change myself..... but I've held my 9.
:P
Slept in Tuna Car R68 #2500
Could they post their VISA card numbers for me as well, please?
NYCTA employees seem to be using a yellow ladder that fits very nicely from the doorway floor down to the trackbed.
Is this ladder standard equipment or was it merely appropriated somewhere in the neighborhood?
Does the LUL use a +600VDC Neutral rail scheme? Is the middle rail just there to allow the electrical supply to be floated (separated from the ground) in a way that using the running rails presumably would not allow? If that is the case and the middle rail really is neutral, then I suppose a middle mounted emergency ladder would make sense.
Of course it could just be that it is + or - 300vdc on those rails, and they just always counted on the power being off when it was used.
I wish to see the PROFF of this image.
November 19, 2003
DAYTONA BEACH -- After more than 16 months spent stalled on unfinished, unpaid-for tracks at Old Dominion University, the high-tech magnetic-levitation train with roots in Edgewater may once again be moving toward completion, the development company's president said Tuesday.
The new push could start later this week if $2 million from the Federal Railway Administration is delivered as promised, said Tony Morris, president of American Maglev Technology. The long-delayed experimental transportation project has already absorbed $14 million in public and private money.
The new money would allow Morris and engineers from Lockheed Martin in Orlando to finish a short section of track and test a revamped control system for the train, which has been billed as a cheaper alternative to light rail mass-transit systems. Germany and Japan are also attempting to use the magnetic technology for mass transit.
During American Maglev's test runs in June 2002 at an elevated track at the Norfolk, Va., university campus, however, the 90-passenger train jarred riders rather than providing the smooth, silent ride developed in Edgewater.
"Things were supposed to start up again in February, but they have taken a path of their own," said Morris, who loosely compared his difficulties to those encountered by developers of the bicycle 100 years ago. "But I have all my fingers and all my toes crossed and I'm still standing."
The challenges to Morris' balance include three lawsuits demanding a total of nearly $800,000 for construction completed more than a year ago on the roughly two-thirds-mile track and three stations.
The lawsuits name Marietta, Ga., American Maglev, Old Dominion and a Daytona Beach subcontractor, Aviation Constructors Inc.
American Steel Inc. of Norfolk, Va., filed for $96,450 for custom fabricated train station roofs that have been lying in pieces on the university campus for more than a year, company Vice President Richard Beckwith said.
Norfolk attorney James Harvey III is representing the two other firms, both of Virginia Beach, Va.
S.B. Ballard Construction Co. is claiming $631,000 for concrete construction work. Waterfront Marine Construction Inc. says it is owed $65,600 of an $80,700 contract for driving station piles.
Officials at Old Dominion University, which is attempting to distance itself from the lawsuits, still remain cautiously optimistic about the project, despite the delays and the costs of the research and development.
Even before officials have successfully developed a test model, they are estimating that magnetic rail would cost about $20 million per linear mile to build. They say it is as economical to build as highways and half the cost of building light rail.
At the same time that Bob Fenning, university vice president of administration and finance, plugs the maglev train as a high-speed environmentally sensitive transportation, he stresses that new ground is being broken and some deadlines will be missed.
"Birthing new technology is not for the faint at heart," Fenning said.
Jeff Libby can be reached at jlibby@orlandosentinel.com or 386-253-2316.
Copyright 2003, Orlando Sentinel
So i'm guessing it's on hold.
It might not take too much arm twisting to get me out there next Wednesday.
Two Amtrak trains last Dec 1:
Arrow III's
Marc
Sunday after Thanksgiving, 1998:
varnish
Arrow III's
AEM7
AEM7
Of course it would be cool to see Metra Electric or DART RDC's on the NEC, but if Arrow III's go to Philly two days each year, some of us think it's worthwhile to go see them on one of those days.
Fares
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Please monitor local news and this web site for updates.
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>>>>>>>>>>right ........!
"" SURE !! YOU FOLKS REALLY CARE ABOUT US BIG TIME !! ""
Even better would be if they could get high operating speeds, like 70mph under the water, and then hook the SAS into the tunnel. The SAS and E would join together just off the Lower Manhattan shore, ala the Montague Tunnel (cept this one would be 5 miles long, so a slow down at the north end would be as long as for a small river crossing). The E would run local on the 8th Ave, providing downtown manhattan with service to SI, while the SAS has it's semi-express to get the Midtown crowd uptown in a hurry, that is of course assuming the SAS actually has higher operating speeds than the rest of the NYCTA system. Yes, during rush hours it might be a good idea to run express diamond E's up the 8th Ave line to catch those people who work in TSQ and don't want to either transfer at WTC-Chambers, sit on an E all the way south, or grab the TSQ-GCT Shuttle or 7 over to GCT for the SAS.
Of course in SI they could split up as well, say one along the north shore that then turns south along the western end, while the other follows the current route of the SIRT down to Tottenville.
So what do you say? E and T to SI? Or have I finally cracked?
And yes, I know this is so completely not an original idea.
Due to political (Robert Moses and others) and monetary issues the project died.
Brooklyn is closer to SI and it would be less expensive to continue to do the tunneling there.
I'm not saying it will ever become a reality, but I like the idea of a direct subway line from SI to MAN. Then again, I also like the idea of particle stream transport. ;-)
It is, of course, a trade off; but one which would seem to be more feasible than a direct route to Manhattan, and serve a wider range of interests.
Mark
But I think even if SI were connected to Manhattan through Brooklyn, for example, an HBLR connection might still be useful in terms of general regional mobility.
Mark
HBLR to SI would definately work though. Just send it over the Bayonne, down along 440, then down that open strip of land to Great Kills Park. That's across the whole island, well, sorta. Look at a map, you'll see what I mean.
Of course, I know there are reasons why the SIRT can't return to the North Shore route...I don't remember what they are, but I've been told on this board before that it can't happen.
Mark
Then again that might not be feasible if the site is set up to be a memorial.
Better to confiscate two lanes on the VNB and run LRVs across it.
6 LRV trains will come together at the bridge, form into a train and work it into the subway system in brooklyn.
Nah. Leave that stretch as undeveloped land. That's why the parkway never got built in the first place. The city needs every set of "lungs" it can get. Especially Staten Island.
Run a line down Richmond Avenue instead. Or, really look to the future; down the West Shore Expressway service roads. To establish a corridor, increase its density. Hell, run a line over the Outerrbridge Crossing into Perth Amboy.
I'd run the SIR over the lower level of the Verrazano bridge to 95 St, where they'll connect with the R and run express into Midtown.
The free ferry is cheap enough.
VC Madman
And I know this sounds wierd, but I also have a ... gasp ... black diamond S!!!
VC Madman
--Z--
Stops:
Franklin Av/Fulton St
Park Pl (skips rush hrs)
Botanic Gdn
Prospect Pk
McDonald Av
9 Av
The black circle S makes all the local stops in between.
I also have green, light green, brown, red, light blue, and purple S's just for the hell of it. T
Never heard of it. I think he's lying
I also have a diamond L, a green diamond P, and a magenta diamond X.
VC Madman
Regards,
Jimmy
It's just a matter of catching the idiots before one of them knocks their head off, and then getting a strict enough punishment to stick on one of them to give their peers pause the next time. Admittedly in such a situation the surfer or skylarker is unlikely to actually stop and think about what happened to others, whether they were killed or caught and punished, however something does have to be done. I do not know what, since it's not like you could put a close-captioned camera in every car so that the Conductor can yell at the offenders over the PA before they even open the door. Perhaps the doors between cars should be locked and NYC should go shopping for 3 to 5 unit articulated cars for the next orders, do you really need to get between cars that badly? But that wouldn't solve the surfing issue, which IIRC is people riding on the outside of the train as it leaves the station (don't know why the C/R doesn't see this, are they already hunkered down by the time the idiot jumps on?). For that all I could really think of would be platform doors, either that or a pair of cops on every platform, both to deter any surfers, arrest those who manage to survive their adventure, and to get the EMTs there as fast as possible when the surfer ends up injuring themselves.
In my mind the question is, should an entire car of subway riders be endangered because of a few terminally stupid people?
1050.9 says in part (subsection d.) "No person may ride on the roof, platform between subway cars or in any other area outside any subway car or bus or other conveyance operated by the authority."
That convers surfing, skylarking or any other stupid activity that has body parts outside the car.
Usually the discovery of the activity is the aftermath.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Out here (in North Dakota) his brother, Sheriff Darwin, is the only one that patrols any of the back roads. You will never get a ticket no matter how you drive on the back roads, but this does not mean that Sheriff Darwin is not watching your every move. He does not give second chances.
Elias
That's what I was talking about.
#3 West End Jeff
And watch when the families will sue the NYPD and NYCT for a frivolous lawsuit. It's frivolous because these jerks did it to themselves.
#3 West End Jeff
Bravado...Or Death Wish??
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
But we don't not have to support anything involved, like the scholarship fund or attending the funeral at all.
Your quote.
>>>>We do not have to go that far mocking other people in a funeral. <<<
Make up your mind. GEEZ
Peace,
ANDEE
They didn't deserve to die, but that sometimes happens.
It's just not right.
Least I can correct my mistakes, we are all human.
There seems to be more involved than just using common sense. Whether it's proving your manhood, establishing an identity or defying death, something very tragic is in place.
If we valued young people's lives, perhaps we would find another way to respond to this. Does the MTA have any officers specially assigned to the outdoor lines where this is common? Could a camera be mounted on the roof of the front end of a train to monitor the tops? Or perhaps mount cameras at the top of elevated stations and let the station agents monitor the area. Should passengers be encouraged to alert the train crew if they see anyone messing around?
Enforcement is largely a waste of time. Make it impossible for depraved youth to climb on top of subway cars and they'll find some other way to prove their manhood by risking their lives. Make it merely difficult for depraved youth to skylark/surf and they'll do it all the more because of the risk of getting caught.
If society valued young people's lives, perhaps we would find some way to prevent them from thinking that they need to prove their manhood by risking their lives. Chemical castration until age 20 might be worth a shot but the political fallout would be unpleasent....
They sometimes take the train operator's sanity.
That's right, don't you dare blame the kids or the parents, just blame the authorities!! Typical of the media!! That's why I hate the press!!!
I would agree with your earlier post that parents need to somehow instill in their kids some more respect for their own lives. Or at least a respect for death. It worked for me. I turned away from a life of crime and mayhem out of a fear of going to the electric chair or gas chamber.
Some of those kids really didn't have bus fare.
Buses were easy to hitch a ride on, as the back adrack was mounted between the back windows and the motor doors and provided an excellent finger hold.
Streetcars were much harder - all PCC by that time, and no footholds.
One was titled "Superconductor". It's an interesting article about Billy Howell, a Metro North conductor, and the people who ride his train out of Grand Central. Everyone knows each other.
Superconductor
The other article is New York Pres's take on improving communication in the transit system. It's a little flip, but it does bring up the issue of how to quickly alert train operators when a passenger has fallen on the tracks.
Bridging the Communication Gaps
If you want to avoid the big issues, hire a human relations consultant. Everybody's doing it. They really put their finger on the problem -- top management needs to get train-to-S/A information in place, or put security people on the platforms with working communicators and close the rest of the ticket booths. Friendly or not, a system that LOOKS like it has people with information, but doesn't, is worse than one without any service at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Mark
And you know that if you had a photo of YOUR cat at the railfan window of that Redbird, you would have posted it.
Don't attempt to show your face on any other trip unless you have payment for the trip you snuck on.
Mark
Mark
AEM7
1) Museum trains are more expensive to maintain. They need TLC.
2) I thought many railfan trips are set up to collect money for charity (meaning that a large portion of the $40 fare goes to a charitable foundation, not the TA).
Right, so run them into the ground, then park them. When scrapping trains, choose to scrap ones that are completely dead, and utilize the residual life in those that aren't. Once the residual life is gone (i.e. the train will no longer move), donate it to a museum (i.e. throw it in the backyard and leave it there), and then you're done. Never makes sense to perform major repairs on a museum train.
2) I thought many railfan trips are set up to collect money for charity (meaning that a large portion of the $40 fare goes to a charitable foundation, not the TA).
There lies the mistake. TA should collect the money to offset their costs. It could be quite a good niche business.
AEM7
In the case of trains, since railfans hardly have enough willingness-to-pay even to cover the operating and maintenance costs, using them for charity event is unlikely to fully cover costs. In those cases charity should lose money.
Charity is like any other business, and their marketing strategy is 'we're a good cause so you should have higher willingness to pay for our services'.
AEM7
I suppose you could say the last revenue run of the Redbirds was a fantrip, too....
--Mark
WELL GUESS WHAT EVERYBODY, HE WANTS TO POST THE NUMBES OF 2 REDBIRDS THAT HAVE BEEN SAVED AND HIDDEN THANKS TO ME AND HE THINKS THAT WILL HURT ME. GUESS WHAT? ALL IT WILL DO IS GET THEM SCRAPPED. GO AHEAD, YOU WILL BE A MARKED MAN IN HERE.
:0)
No, it's a charitable group which funds research into birth defects.
Adam
I demand you make a photo album for cat pics!
"goddamnit, how'd it disappear off my webserver?"
Then a few seconds later you wrote:
"n/m"
Regards,
Jimmy
Also around that time there were two southbound 2 trains less than two minutes apart.
So in David of Broadway's case, the N/B #1 train made a battery from 42nd st (or 72 st) to 96th st, express on the local track.
(Battery) runs on the 1/9 used to be very common, IME. I used to see 42-59-72-96 runs in the afternoon rush all the time (when I commuted daily, at least once or twice a week), and not infrequently on Sunday evenings. It seemed to be the catch-all technique to solve all sorts of problems, even though it didn't solve any problems (any time gained by bypassing a few stations was offset by all the confusion and door-holding) and even though it generated dangerous crowding on the narrow platform at 72 by not providing adequate service to a group of very busy local stations. The practice was put to an end on September 15, 2002, the date the 1/9 changed from one of the least reliable lines in the system to one of the most reliable. Since that date, I can only recall seeing one (battery) run on the line -- after a half-hour gap in southbound morning service, one train stopped at 86 and 79 but bypassed 66 and 50. Make that two, as of this morning. Service must have really broken down if a (battery) run at that time of day (with 10-minute scheduled headways) was warranted.
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:11/20/03 12:15:14 PM
Due to a broken rail near 59th Street, downtown-bound 2 and 3 trains are running on the local tracks between 96th Street and 34th Street until further notice
Due to mechanical problems at South Ferry, 1/9 service is suspended in both directions between South Ferry and Rector Street until further notice.
Isn't it convenient that a new switch was installed south of Rector? Looks like it got some use today.
We departed Woodside on the local but proceeded to pass ALL local stops (at full speed) and got to Junction. Was just as fast, maybe even faster, than the 7 Express would have went.
Yeah, but he probably a) knew what you meant and b) had other, more pressing, things to do at the time.
Is that even possible? It's been my experience that no 2 trains can ever show up less than 2 minutes apart, even if one is riding the yellows behind the other, and since most lines are theoretically said to be capable of only 30 TPH, dividing that into 60 minutes would also turn up a train every 2 minutes. Are you exaggerating just a little?
A 1 and a 2 came through the station at the same time. I got on the 1. At 72 we made a connection with the following 2.
The express saves a minute, maybe a hair more, between 96 and 72. So these two 2 trains were under two minutes apart.
I'm not complaining -- I got the best of three worlds: I got a seat on the 1 (it wasn't crowded since it connected with a 2 at 96), I got a direct transfer to the express at 72, and I got a seat on that express (since it was trailing another express). But why can't that ever happen when I'm running late? When I'm running late, I usually get to watch two or three expresses pass by before a packed local shows up, and that packed local invariably doesn't connect with an express at 72 (but it meets an express at 42, so the crowds leaving the platform there are doubled, obstructing the mad dash I must now make to the BMT platform to have any hope of catching the Q I need).
There's truth to the C/R saying "There's another train right behind us".
Doesn't ALWAYS happen that way.... but I've experienced it a handful of times.....
But by holding lights, them two trains will be further apart by the time
they get to 42st.
The first train stopped at 72 -- there were only a few people waiting by the express track (but a bunch waiting by the local) when the second one pulled in.
Almost as nice as having a seat by the door on a crush loaded 3 train in the afternoon rush. Ah, the benefits of working in Brooklyn -- the train was totally empty in Brooklyn and didn't even get crowded until Chambers.
Yes. One of them died in the AirTrain accident.
Thanks again, LIRR.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK. I am sure you hand in this every time you work the train, but (a) How many defects do you usually notice per train? I mean, do you record things like ripped seats, not-so-severe wheelflats, and flipping seat mechanisms jammed or doors hard to open? I am sure the broken window gets reported, but these minor things can get worse very quickly and will annoy the passengers. Now, (b) How many % of Conductors do you suppose hand in the form? Of the forms that get handed in... (c) How many % do you suppose actually reach the shops and someone at the shops has time to read them? (d) Once they know about a defect, how often do you think the trainsets make it into the shop and they happen to have someone on hand to fix that defect (assuming they have all the parts?) (e) Even if the defect is severe, like a very bad wheel flat or a broken window... How long do you think it takes to move the thing over to the wheel lathe and get it trued -- or moving it to the track adjacent to the crane so they could remove the cracked window safely?
Running repairs are easy... replacing major parts or truing the wheel... is hard. Will take a lot of reports for that to get taken care of. How much do you suppose it costs to fix a wheelflat? A hint: moving the car to the lathe takes a switcher (hostler); then a repairman has to operate the lathe, and a foreman has to supervise the person. The job is likely to take a shift since the lathe will run for a while and you have to slowly remove each ring on the tyre to avoid damaging the lathe... while the lathe is running you can make other minor repairs such as taping seats that have been vandalized. Now remember there is a minimum of how thin the tyre can get before they have to be replaced, and typically a new tyre might last some five times in the lathe, and if you keep cutting it, you're basically prematurely using up the life in the tyre... and how much do you suppose a new tyre costs?
AEM7
As far as your questions about fixing a flat wheel, I have no idea.
I ride the Red Line in Boston almost daily. I would guess that about once in every three rides, I see a broken window. This is despite the Red Line using pretty tough glazing (even though they don't have to). FRA compliant windows are harder to break, but breaks/cracks do occur.
I spent some time analyzing maintenance data on the Orange Line from the second half of 2002. I found that while doors do cause many incidents, there are just as many incidents of air leaks and propulsion problems. Wheelflats are common (I know this from riding), but are rarely reported.
As far as your questions about fixing a flat wheel, I have no idea.
It's expensive. Something like $2,500 to $3,000 per wheel millings, I have been told, if you include the salary of the people working, capital depreciation, and everything else. Broken windows are pricey too, something like $2,000 just in parts alone for the front windscreen.
AEM7
1. Run train as is(which is what they did)
2. Take the TWO cars off the train. If one car is effected, the car that it is married to must also come out of service. That means 2 less cars to squeeze riders into. Then you'd bitch about it being too crowded b/c LIRR did something stupid.
3. Take the train OOS. Then you've got to squeeze all the passengers that were supposed to be on that train, and squeeze them into the next one, which is already full with passengers. This is something else you'd bitch about.
If you've got so many problems wit the RR, take the bus and/or subway!
The alternative scenario is that the brakes on this truck was inappropriately calibrated, or perhaps the axle had seized at some point...
AEM7
*Yes, I am a railfan, and I miss them, and even chose a handle from the locomotives of those trains, but what a wreck the coaches were, and a nightmare for commuters.
R-143's will never be known as NS's. But one thing's for sure: There will be a lot of cars that look like R-143's on the tracks.
When the District Line first electrified, the cars had a very American appearance, but were built to the far smaller British loading gauge. The first build was called A stock, and the second (incompatible with A stock), B stock. These were built in the first decade of the 20th century. Unfortunately, none are preserved. If anything the influence would have been Chicago rather than NY, as it was CharlesTyson Yerkes who purchased the District Line.
The B stock set the standards for the next 30 years in terms of electrical equipment, and to a lesser extent appearance. Other than this, UER and its successors always had a preference for relatively lightweight attractive innovative trains with rapid accelaeration, and so I guess they were closer in spirit to the BMT than the IRT.
wayne
wayne
Elevated Railway & Subway in Vietnam??
If you want to read it in Vietnamese
...and India.
The likes of China and Viet Nam aren't pouring the vast majority of their budgets into grossly illconceived social programs and military spending. This makes a huge difference in the kind of projects they can afford. Think of how many 2nd avenue subways you could have got for the $87 billion that lately went to buy gold plated hammers in Iraq, for instance.
As is common for the United States, the problem is not lack of funds but rather an utter failure of leadership and extreme fiscal mismanagement dating back for decades. The fact that the emerging third world is doing much better in some (admittedly very limited areas) is merely evidence of how badly the US has been mismanaged into the ground in the interests of ideology or just plain greed.
That is a pretty ambitious plan, but I believe the two cities are pretty close in population.
This is what I get when I click on that link...what's up with that?
You should be getting to a site that describes how to use Tesla coils to generate large pulses of electricity that can cause coins to compress themselves when inserted inside a copper electromagnet.
This is very definitely dont try this at home stuffthe copper electromagnet self-destructs as part of the exercise and there are warnings about electromagnetic pulses and ionization products.
Ill just stick with my Van de Graaf Generator and Wilmslow machine.
I'll stick to my 21FBP22s and 6BK4s. At least shunt regulators aren't as spectacular when they fail...
As nice as subway cars drawing bright arcs go though, there's NOTHING more spectacular than transmitter duty at a 5 megawatt ERP UHF station where a little ice has dislodged a radome up top, a little water has gotten into the waveguide and the reject load blows. I'm talking fireworks that'd put Con Ed to shame. (grin) I still can hear, and I'm still breathing. Got a better gig. ;)
Once other point....in some rare instances graffiti COULD take on a "artistic" quailty. One could admire the use of color and perspective in the "artist's" work. With scratchitti however, there is never even a hint of anythimg approaching "art". Its is just ugly vandalism and defacement of property pure and simple. One can hope for its end, but until either society changes or we have dramatically better protection of the cars, I see it as an ongoing problem How unfortunate!
Aluminium is one of the softest metals. It will not be scratchitti proof. Only diamond windows will be scratchitti proof. Stainless steel could be, but if you were determined you can still carve a pattern into stainless steel. AEM7
There is some indication that the motivation in deranged youth to vandalize has the same behavioral roots as territorial spraying in dogs. Marking territory for reproductive purposes is about as base a desire as one can find in life on earth (although I'm not sure if teenagers fit into this category...) and is very difficult to stop.
It's much, much harder to get rid of the scratchiti than it is to scratch it.
Once I was in the same car on the 1 train as a group of three kids scratching up the windows. It was VERY quick. I don't know what they were using, but they were having a great time, taking turns at videotaping each other scratching things up. Took only a few seconds to effectively ruin a window, they were easily able to do several between local stops.
No wonder the MTA cannot possibly keep up with all the scratched up windows, and since vandals started using glass etching fluid it's even worse. And of course it's not only train windows but anything glass-- including the partitions the MTA has installed around elevator shafts and certain stairway railings and fare control areas, as well as the covers to the LED passenger information signs (which usually display just the date and time). A number of the recently installed glass block "windows" on the elevated 7 train platforms are defaced too.
There's this great substance that the walls can be coated with. It's used in the locker room at my school. When scratches are applied, the substance scratches off. One merely needs to take a polishing machine and rub the scratches out. A new coat doesn't need to be applied.
All windows/clear surfaces should be coated with the mylar plasic that is now used on many of the windows.
Once kids realize that their tags aren't permanent, they'll stop.
They'll just go back to spraypaint, permanent markers, peel-and-stick nametags, or get creative and start using stinking agents or power tools. Sooner or later, some delinquant blockhead is going to use a Dremmel to carve its name into the side of a carbody.
Someone should start a youth meme that it's 'cool' to tag the third rail...with all-metal tools.
Youth are pretty perverse. Upping the risks for getting caught will just boost the appeal of vandalizing things by giving them an opportunity to further prove their manhood by spitting in the face of danger.
Witness that the risks of getting killed serve only to increase the popularity of riding on the outside of the trains.
Once, in broad daylight, I saw this teenager get on a 1 train in the Bronx. He took out a cheap sharpee marker and started to draw on the windows. Suddenly, the conductor emerged from his cabin, snatched the marker from the unsuspecting kid, and put a nice black mark on his white hat.
The kid says, "Why the f*** did you do that!?"
The conductor replied, "Well, you destroyed some of my property, and I'll just destroy some of yours."
The sheepish kid got off the train. The conductor chuckled, and went back into his cabin.
Step 2: Get on the train that comes. Because several railfans should live on the same line, the plan could be efficient enough for a railfan to be in all 10, 6, 11, 4, 3, or 8 cars of the train. If you know each other well, call each other on your cell phones so you know who is on the train and the SubTalk handle of the railfan.
Step 3: If you see one of those NITWITTISH VANDALS comitting any mentioned form of vandalism, make sure you have any usable tools for immobilization of the vandal. If you don't, sorry but you came unprepared. If you do, immobilize the vandal immediately.
Step 4: TURN 'EM IN TO THE TA POLICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember, this is a risky plan. Don't do it if you don't want to risk yourself.
NOTE: Unfortunately, I am a child and mom says I can't do it (no offense against her), so unfortunately, I can't participate in something I planned. Oh well.
I had stopped at a shopping center near the Bethpage LIRR station to grab a bite and decided to see if an R7 would go by in either direction. On the weekend schedule, two trains pass each other between Bethpage and Farmingdale.
As the Ronkonkoma-bound train approached, the gates at the Stewart Avenue crossing, which is at the east end of the platform, did their thing. So did the gates at the Broadway crossing, which is a block east. Problem was, while the train was platforming, the Broadway gates went UP- although the lights continued to flash. (It was too far away to tell if the bells were ringing. But that doesn't mean anything- sometimes bells ring the entire time the gates are down, and sometimes they ring only when the gates are descending.) The train departed and passed through both crossings with the usual horn pattern. But the horn, signals and approaching train did not keep several vehicles from going through the Broadway crossing uncomfortably close prior to the train passing.
The Stewart gates went up briefly before reactivating for the approaching westbound train. The Broadway signals continued to flash and the gates stayed up for the passage of this train, which routinely comes in excess of 60 MPH. I commented to someone on the platform the inertness of the Broadway gates. They responded casually that "it happens all the time."
I'd once heard similar sentiments while eating in a Chinese takeout on Covert Avenue right by the Hempstead branch crossing between Floral Park and Stewart Manor. The bells sounded and gates went alternately up and down every two minutes or so for the whole half-hour I was there. According to a local, it'd been going on that way for DAYS, and complainants found the buck being passed back and forth between the LIRR, MTA, LILCO, NCPD and the Floral Park PD.
If I were able, I'd have told a conductor about this. Wouldn't an engineer or crew member report a malfunctioning gate so that a police car would be posted there- or slowing orders be implemented at such a location? That's what LIRR diesels did at crossings during the blackout. Would telling the NCPD have done any good? It's hard to know WHO to contact when this happens.
An interesting feature at Bethpage is a speaker mounted at both sides of the Stewart crossing that utters in a stilted, 45 RPM female voice "Danger! Train approaching on other track!" Obviously this is intended at locations where two trains pass each other within a short amount of time, either in the opposite or same direction. This may have been installed in response a 1999 incident in which a woman, unfamiliar with peak-hour 'wrong platform' procedures, ran through the gates to the other side so she wouldn't miss her train. Alas, the train didn't miss her.
I hope this cautionary speaker is at Syosset, where I once saw someone run the gates and almost get creamed by an eastbound diesel approaching on the westbound track AFTER an eastbound M1 passed on its 'normal' track. (WHEN will people realize that peak trains can use both tracks going the same way?!) These speakers don't seem to be in place at New Hyde Park- but should be, for the volume of train traffic there.
Speaking of NHP, there's either an NCPD or Garden City cruiser sitting on the gore between NHP Road and Clinch Avenue immediately south of the crossing. One afternoon while trainwatching, he nailed THREE cars who stopped on the tracks when they shouldn't have. In their defense, I personally avoid making the left from southbound NHP onto Clinch because if you stop before the tracks to let oncoming traffic pass before turning (which can take quite a long time), the people behind you invariably honk. I've even seen people in one vehicle actually TAP the one in front of them that's stopped immediately in front of the crossing. Obviously one should wait on the crossing itself and risk summons- or death- so as not to inconvenience the person behind.
Unfortunately, no amount of precautions will prevent people from exposing themselves to death by train. That's what makes malfunctioning gates that much more frustrating- and horns necessary. If they continually go down when they shouldn't, it amounts to crying wolf. If they don't go down when they should, that endangers the law-abiding. I HAVE witnessed instances both from inside and outside the train in which the gates, lights and bells ALL fail to function when they should- especially in thunderstorms, or during thaws from heavy snowstorms.
The only horn prohibtion I'm aware of is for the two traditionally gated HBLR street crossings between Liberty Park and Garfield. All other crossings are controlled by traffic signals, supposedly eliminating the need for any audible warnings from the LRVs.
Or were you waiting for one of these, an M7? :)
About that automated voice warning idiots not to go around the gates, I dont think LIRR should have to go this far. The standard bells, lights, gates, and horns are enough. I know this will sound very sick, but if a person goes around closed gates b/c they're to ignorant to take care of themselves, they deserve to be hit, if not, have a VERY close call.
"I've even seen people in one vehicle actually TAP the one in front of them that's stopped immediately in front of the crossing."
Provided there was no cop around, I would have gone over, smashed the person's window, and punched him right in the face for being an impatient jackass.
Darn here I thought he meant these:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SeptaRegionalRail/aao
Actually, I think that's gonna be an R5 once it gets pulled in from Powellton Yard, so one of these:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SeptaRegionalRail/aaa
Tuesday's The Times-Picayune
"Brooklyn subway and bus riders don't get a fare share of transit services, elected officials and straphanger advocates said at a Borough Hall hearing yesterday.
Though Brooklyn riders spend $714 million annually on MetroCards - the most of any borough - they get the smallest amount of new investment dollars per rider, testified Community Consulting Services chair Carolyn Konheim" from the Better Transit For Brooklyn study*.
*This particular webpage may show up as blank on Mac browsers. However you can download the highly informative PDF's from the page via Menu Bar> View> Source, then Edit> Find: ".pdf"
The Manhattan Bridge and occasional Willie B project.
New cars on the L, CBTC on the L.
No money going into Brooklyn transit improvements?
As a Brooklyn resident, I can tell you that (once the Manhattan Bridge reopens and the big station jobs are done) transit will be the one public service that Brooklyn DOES have.
The schools are underfunded and much worse than those in most of the country.
The ratio of parkland to population is among the nation's lowest.
The ratio of highway lane-miles to automobiles may also be among the nation's lowest, though not everyone here would consider that a problem.
The electric grid is old, and transformers blow up every now and then.
The phone system is old and fails frequently.
The Post Office lines are among the longest.
Etc. Etc.
Marty and the boys best turn their attention elsewhere.
"The ratio of parkland to population is among the nation's lowest."
True. Brooklyn needs more green space. But Brooklyn resident have one seat rides to Prospect Park, Jamaica Bay, Central Park and the Bronx golf course (OK, that's a bit far), all awesome places.
Even in Law & Order, when Chris Noth's character, Mike Logan (Chris was leaving the series) hit a councilman in the face (after the councilman beat a obvious murder rap), he was exiled to Staten Island.
The only ways to get there is by ferry or via New Jersey.
Which is just another way of saying that the only way of getting there is by ferry or via a short trip through Dante's Inferno...
--Mark
Aren't you forgetting the longest suspension bridge in the Western Hemisphere?
Aren't you putting in two rather major restrictions to make your point? It's neither the world's longest suspension bridge, nor the longest bridge in North Awerica.
That's because the "community" keeps winning the battles -- the 3rd bus depot, the Richmond Tunnel, the south shore ferry, etc.
The columns are: line number, terminal, workday: first tram,last, *frequency*; and then the same for Saturday and then Sunday.
So, for instance - tram 9 will on a Saturday come every 9, or maybe every 18 minutes :-). Hey, you never know..
Don't you think that's "funny"? :-)
Aaah.. I love public transport in my hometown.. :-)
(really, I do)
(Oo, check _this_ out - they've got an English version :-)
http://www.zet.hr/English/english.html
Anyway, yes, it's Zagreb, in Croatia. Sorry I didn't mention that right on.
ZET means Zagreb Electrical Trams. It's public transport company in Zagreb - it operates 15 tram lines and cca 117 bus lines..
Hey, the company is 108 years old, heh! :-)
John
: )
Mark
But, truth be told - this timetable is somewhat justified. Trams in Zagreb run almost entirely in mixed traffic with cars etc. so trams get stuck in traffic jams just as cars do..
By the way I looked at the website, and found the system map. It looks like Zagreb has a pretty extensive tram system. Do you have a digital camera? I'd love to see pictures of Zagreb's trams.
Mark
>"Every 9-18 minutes" is a good way to describe the frequency of
>trolleys in West Philadelphia, too. They come frequently enough on
>weekdays, but you you might wait ten minutes, or they might be backed
>up one behind the other.
Yup, exactly the same here in Zagreb.
Another interesting fact is that trams here are involved in a slightly more than 365 accidents/year. Don't get me wrong, I feel quite safe in trams, I was never involved in an accident when riding one; these accidents (usually car drivers' fault) are mostly non-casualty but enough to make few hours of chaos for commuters.. :-)
>Do you have a digital camera? I'd love to see pictures of Zagreb's trams.
I would like to show them (I do have a digital photo camera, as of recently) but I don't have webspace, though..
So is that transitgallery.com free or not? First it says "free" and then mentions "I understand I will pay a fee of $20.00 a year for new accounts"..?
Or does anyone know some other free webspace..?
Thanks.
In the meantime, here are some links I come up with using google:
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Zagreb7.jpg
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Zagreb7.jpg
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Zagreb10.jpg
And here, scroll down to Zagrebacki Elektricni Tramvaj..
The very idea that they think they can run their buses and think that they'll stay on schedule is ridiculous. If you're any more than 10 blocks from the origin point, then the schedule that they list is worthless. Of course that also assumes that the Bus or Trolley leaves on time, and some of the bunchings I've observed have been just a bit too close to completely be caused by traffic, some T/O or B/O was having a long lunch!
I'd rather see something like the 42 westbound running every 4 to 12 minutes between 1600 and 2000 hours than to be given exact times that mean virtually nothing. At the very least it'd lead to smaller schedules and reduced overhead from paper use... :-)
Mark
Maybe I'll have more luck with this Gary Larson calender.
I don't get it. **flip**
I don't get it. **flip**
I don't get it. **flip**
I don't get it. **flip**
Oooooooooo...I don't get it.
I thought the timetable was "funny" because it was very vague; but I've come to realise that there are worse ones.
Also, I linked the english version of www.zet.hr because it was very crappy :-). Again, hmmm, I guess it is better than nothing..
"Due to a broken rail near 59th Street, downtown-bound and trains are running on the local tracks between 96th Street and 34th Street until further notice"
Stops:
Euclid Avenue (Sutter Avenue)
76th Street (Pitkin Avenue)(Stop Rebuilt as 2 Tracks,Island Platform)
Cross Bay Blvd (Pitkin Avenue)
Rockaway Blvd (Linden Blvd)
133rd Avenue (Linden Blvd)
Sutphin Blvd (Linden Blvd)
Linden Blvd (Merrick Blvd)
Baisley Blvd (Merrick Blvd)
Springfield Blvd (Merrick Blvd)
Francis Lewis Blvd (Merrick Blvd)(4 Track, 2 Islands)(Late Night Terminal)
Green Acres Mall (4am - 1am)(4 Track, 2 Islands) with Leeds to Storage Yard)
And it's already been designed and built by a long and distinguished list of Subtalkers on this board.
Either way, it figures 76th Street managed to find its way in there. :)
While we're at it how about 4 service thru concouse yard to Bedford pk. D line so we don't have to walk two blocks from jerome to G.C.
wayne
I read a post that compared described the R110 series. Among the first things that are mentioned are:
The LCD signs also had an interesting feature in them. The Route portion could display the route, shown in a circle or a diamond. This feature is similar to the end signs on the R142 cars.
HOW THE HELL DID IT DO THAT! Someone said that the numbers and letters on the car looked like the type of text you would find on like a digital clock (7 section sides with cross hatches for diagonals)
DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF THE SIDE SIGNS? or at least a better description. I don't get it!
I havent seen the R110 series, but for an example of the technology, you could look at the annunciator board in NY Penn Station, just in front of the ticket counters. This uses an interesting mix of big LCD segment technology, plus smaller LCD color screens (like laptop displays) for the train operator name.
John
Or at least a quick fix for the R110A's
Seriously, I'm glad you enjoyed my post. The R110's did a good job on the rails, though it's been at least 3 years since I've been on one of them.
This one was the best I could find.
(71 kbytes)
System: New York City Transit
Location: 239th Street Yard
Car: R110A 8008
Photo by: Steve Kreisler
Date: 1997
The one redeeming element of most subway musicians is that they seldom stay in your car for more than a couple of stops before moving to another car to annoy- er, entertain people in another.
One recent afternoon I was riding the uptown N through Manhattan. A four-man acapella combo got on at Rector Street and forced "Under the Boardwalk" on us. A group of tourists heartily applauded, complimented and subsidized them, which encouraged the musicians to sing another number- and another- and another- all the way to 34th. The tourists requested, and got, "Charlie Brown", "Uptown Girl", "I Will Always Love You"(!) and the one song that would get me to give up the secret to the H-Bomb if I had it, "The Lion Sleeps Tonight."
The only thing that kept me from switching cars was because they were putting on their show in front of me and I didn't want to call attention to myself. I managed to restrain myself (at the risk of looking like your stereotypical Noo Yawker) from going over to the tourists, who stayed on to 57th, and saying "Look- youse guys are from out of town and may find these guys charming and talented and entertaining. But I gotta listen to them ALL the TIME, and they annoy the crap out of me. So do me a favor- DON'T ENCOURAGE THEM! If you like hearing them that much, FOLLOW them!"
I hate to dump on tourists, because this city's economy would be in the crapper without them. But it's amazing how things that bother us captivate them. I put sidewalk vendors who make Times Square impassible in the same category. ("Look, Ma, there's guys selling pictures of them Twin Towers RIGHT HERE ON THE SIDEWALK! Isn't that something!")
Remember that in a lot U.S. cities the sight of people walking around at all in the downtown area is a rare sight, thanks to the decline of urban areas and the growth of suburbs where nothing is walkable.
I don't know about musicians on the train...that might be annoying, but I like musicians in the stations. Philadelphia is nearly devoid of them. The city just feels dead without them.
Mark
Of course, calling SEPTA a gem compared to New York might be stretching things. We don't have panhandlers and battery hawkers, but the system covers the city far less extensively than New York's does. It's not nearly as useful a transportation tool.
Mark
Last time I rode SEPTA was the eastern MFL in April '01. There were no disturbances of this kind- but plenty of beggars in the Market East concourse. They must've been kicked out of 30th Street after the renovation.
Mark
I don't like having to pass through Flushing because:
1. the people always seem to be walking slower than I am.
2. the sidewalk vendors and stores (and their associated crowds) cause bottlenecks on the sidewalks
3. traffic is bad at almost any time of the day (especially at Main & Roosevelt)
4. the subway station is so bad when it comes to dealing with crowds.
Why don't they just extend the 7 line to someplace else?
Unfortunately, this is commonplace all over the city.
It was going on on the elevateds in the 1880's and it's a part of the fabric of Gotham.
It also seems to exist nowhere else.
If anything good is to be said about them, it's that they don't use a loud boom box or instruments. As singers, they're not half bad removed from the context of an unwanted intrusion. But whenever I hear "The Lion Sleeps Tonight", I change the station or run to the bathroom, or to the bar to get another drink. But that's MY opinion.
A male acapella group should know better than even TRY "I Will Always Love You"- or, as I've paraphrased the chorus, "And I-I-I-I-
E-E-E-I-I-I-I couldn't sing if I TRI-I-I-I-E-E-E-E-I-I-I-D-"
I endorse people making a living but NEVER profit from a terrorist act at the expense of innocent victims and their families.
WHAT ARE THEY, CRAZY OR SOMETHING? WHO'D WANT TO PAY FOR THAT?!?
I've seen it all too many times, anyway.
Just goes to show that some scumbags will profit from tragedy.
There's also the issue of (a) how much of this stuff is stolen?; (b) how much of this stuff is legit, i.e. a Walkman with no insides; (c) none of these vendors pay tax or insurance, or give receipts, like a legitimate business; (d) this obstruction of sidewalks is a horrible safety hazard. Should there be, God forbid, some kind of disaster or attack, trampling fatalities would be in the thousands.
As far as vendors peddling WTC merchandise, you don't know whether to be madder at them, or at the people who buy the stuff. Seems a lot of the same tourists who adore and encourage subway musicians also regard Ground Zero as another big tourist attraction. Going down there because you want to reflect, or pay your respects, is fine. Smiling and posing for pictures in front of the cyclone fencing is beyond nauseating- and horribly disrespectful. Thankfully, I didn't lose anyone so far as I know. But imagine how someone who DID must feel at seeing the circus atmosphere that sprung up there before September 2001 even ended!
Just last night while riging on a R train from Rector Street to 28th St. (a 14-15 minute ride, minid you), I counted THREE performers, a man with a Saxaphone, a blind woman singing and the quartet of singers featured in "New York Underground" all in the same car during the ride. And when I got off at at 28th st, guess what? Two men with guitars entered the car so that would make it FOUR performers between Rector and 34th st/Broadway. But that doesn't bother me so as long as they don't shove the hats or whatever they use to collect their change in my face.
R Broadway Local R46 #5946
Mark
Mark
Of course, to bring things on topic, Bartok lived in the Bronx at the end of his life. I found his house in Riverdale once. I rode there on the 1/9. On the return trip I caught a 2 or 3 (I don't remember which one) express train once I was back in Manhattan. This was my very first ever ride on a Redbird.
Still on topic, Bartok was originall from Budapest, a city that built the world's second subway after the London Underground, which opened in 1893. This was 11 years before New York's first subway line. Bartok would have been four at the time.
Mark
Mark
"Folk" singer, Wendy Sayvetz, almost seems to work on the lower level of Grand Central Station, to the same extent as the food concession people there, because of how frequently I see and hear her there.
Come ride Philadelphia's music-free subway and see for yourself just how right you are!
: (
Mark
I have also recently heard some good electric blues and rock on the mezzanine of the GCT station of the 4, 5 and 6 lines, during the morning and evening rush hours.
Music on platforms and mezzanines is less of a problem, as long as passenger flow isn't obstructed in the process. I still don't understand why one of the official MTA-sponsored performance spaces is between the BMT staircases at Times Square. I no longer have any qualms with walking right through the middle of the "stage" if it's blocking a busy passageway.
And no drums or loud amplification, ever, no matter what. The subway is loud enough without your help.
But to have it forced on a captive audience in a subway car is what gets me.
How about if i bring an old boombox on the train, put some heavy bass on it, and crank it up on the subway? Oh wait, and i'll have a shoebox it make it legit. :)
Since when are we on Star Search? I'm fine with the werido's and mid-westerners clogging up places like times square and whatever in whereever city, but on the train? But come on. It's probably done because it's the same metaphor as a pushy sales person's dream. Maybe selling a used car or some snake oil in the elevator.
NY needs some light-rail cars. That way you can't escape to another train car. :)
Ny's got some cutthroat competition going on there.
I have no such compunction. I resent them and have no problem with expressing the fact.
I'm with you all the way. I'm constantly playing car tag with those 3 Mariachi Guys. They get on, I change cars, they follow me, at the next stop I race backward to the car behind. Same thing with the 3 Gospel Guys.
You can't get away from Steel Drum Guy at Penn Station, or Violin Guy at GCT #7 platform though.
Please, Bloomie, you banned smoking, can't you do something about these 'musicians'?
If I want a floor show, I'll watch Hollywood Palace.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now I routinely see stationary musicians playing under the
"Music Under NY" banner, using amps and often located in
absurd locations (e.g. the main mezzanine of the 42-Lex station).
There is one performer in the corner of the passageway between
LEX/51 and LEX/53 who sets up a synthesizer and monstrous
amplified speakers, and plays nothing but noise (repetitive
synthesized beat ).
OTOH I haven't seen the "9th St Stompers", with a trumpet, tuba
and guitar, in a long time.
Once a preacher got on a downtown F at 42nd. He started his spiel "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, and how are you on this blessed day?" Needing to get off at 34th, I rose from my seat to head for the door just as he said this. This inspired him to smirk and me and say "Sorry I asked. Some people don't appreciate the word of the Lord." Some people in the car shook their heads and sucked their teeth. I don't know if it was directed at me, him or both.
I felt like saying "Get over yourself, pal. I have to get OFF here- not that I wanna listen to your drivel anyway." But I figured that would only make things worse.
It does seem like a lot of these guys DO follow you from car to car or train to train. It may be coincidence or not, but one representative for Street News I had to listen to in a middle car of the F train reappeared in a middle car of the 7 train I comfortably settled into. Before he started his spiel, he quipped "You not be getting away from me, Brudda." Some people snickered.
To this day I wonder if he DELIBERATELY tailed me through the long transfer passageway under Bryant Park. Generally, subway irritants work their way through the entire train before transferring.
Are the Three Mariachi Guys to which you refer the same ones that prevail on the weekend 7? I don't notice their ilk on any other line. Maybe they figure the large Latino population along the 7 would welcome this genre. Kinda patronizing, when you think about it.
The same, though they do appear on other IRT lines, I suppose when the MTA does not deign to run the Flushing Line to Manhattan on selected weekends.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have been preached to by people trying to push the "Black Star" fringe paper. I have heard their speech so many times I could probobly do it myself.
Sean@Temple
Mark
1. What explains the extra trackage at Garwood (4 tracks) station and the so-called "express trackage that doesn't exist" at Cranford?
2. What is the 3rd track doing there at Bound Brook?
3. At High Bridge, only one track is used. The other leads to "never-never land" and is covered with rust. Do these tracks run parallel for a while to Phillipsburg? Where does it start east of HB?
4. Which branch of CONRAIL or CSX runs along a portion of the RVL line? I saw a 2-track network branching off from RVL trackage around the Roselle Park station.
5. Are the concrete ties between Somerville and Raritan (and elsewhere) newly installed?
6. What is the conductor doing when he opens the large panel doors within the center door area of the Comet IV's? (I was on Comet IV Cab #5028 when he was fiddling around with something in there).
7. Is(are) the panel(s) by the water cooler on the Comet IV cabs the "lockers" for NJT crew?
8. What does "BEGIN ATC" signify when placed under a signal at High Bridge?
9. At North Branch, I spotted signal "R394" and at Whitehouse I spotted "R442". Are these merely signal locators/numbers?
10. What yard is outside of Raritan station?
11. What is the old trackage (3 of them) at Dunellen as well?
12. I found "END ATC" after Cranford station NWK-bound. This ties with question #8.
13. We landed on Track 1 at NWK with F40 #4114 trailing behind us. Where does this train go after NWK, as we were all told to get off?
Most CNJ routes were 4 tracks. The RVL is now 2 tracks, usually using the center 2 express tracks with platforms spread out onto the local tracks, but not always.
2. What is the 3rd track doing there at Bound Brook?
Connections to the ex-RDG and LV.
3. At High Bridge, only one track is used. The other leads to "never-never land" and is covered with rust. Do these tracks run parallel for a while to Phillipsburg? Where does it start east of HB?
The tracks go to around Asbury where the line is severed, but a switch is built to get onto the ex-LV. The CNJ and LV get very close at that point and are on top of each either well into Penna. NJT has trackage rights to P-Burg should they ever wish to use it. NS uses the ex-CNJ to get into Penna because the CNJ bridge is better than the LV one. The tracks are in disuse west of High Bridge. They may hi-rail it now and again, but I am not sure.
4. Which branch of CONRAIL or CSX runs along a portion of the RVL line? I saw a 2-track network branching off from RVL trackage around the Roselle Park station.
It may belong to Conrail Shared Assets, or to CSX, but the entire line from where you left the NEC to where you turned off west of Roselle (Aldene) used to be the LV.
5. Are the concrete ties between Somerville and Raritan (and elsewhere) newly installed?
Yes. A new deck bridge was put in over US206 for road-widening. There was shoe-fly tracks and realignments in the process. The eastbound track within Raritan station also has concrete ties, but I can't imagine why.
8. What does "BEGIN ATC" signify when placed under a signal at High Bridge?
Auto Train Control. It's something like ASC on the LIRR, speed control with penalty brakes if the engineer doesn't respond.
9. At North Branch, I spotted signal "R394" and at Whitehouse I spotted "R442". Are these merely signal locators/numbers?
Yes, and they are also mile markers. 39.4 and 44.2 miles to Liberty State Park, the original CNJ terminal.
10. What yard is outside of Raritan station?
Raritan Yard
11. What is the old trackage (3 of them) at Dunellen as well?
Former local track or an old siding.
12. I found "END ATC" after Cranford station NWK-bound. This ties with question #8.
The Conrail/non-NJT portion of the route does not have ATC.
13. We landed on Track 1 at NWK with F40 #4114 trailing behind us. Where does this train go after NWK, as we were all told to get off?
It relays east of Harrison in a small yard, and heads back to track 5.
That signifies the start of cab signal territory.
12. I found "END ATC" after Cranford station NWK-bound. This ties with question #8.
The NS Lehigh Line portion of the line between HUNTER and CP-ALDENE does not have cab signals.
4. Which branch of CONRAIL or CSX runs along a portion of the RVL line? I saw a 2-track network branching off from RVL trackage around the Roselle Park station.
That's CP-ALDENE and the tracks don't branch away, you branch away from the tracks. The RVL used to follow the old CNJ main into Jersey City. In 1962 the state instituted the Aldene plan so the CNJ could close the Jersey City terminal. Trains went up the Aldene Ramp and onto the LVRR main line. This later became the Conrail Lehigh Line and is today the CRSAA Lehigh Line. Last year NK tower, which controlled that stretch of track, was closed and demolished. Damn shame that was.
Depending on which panel he opened, there is one side that has the car cut-out switches, along with the bypass switches, as well as the computer that controls the electronic signs and announcements. The other side has all of the circuit breakers for the lights, p.a., outlets, heat and air conditioning, etc.
"7. Is(are) the panel(s) by the water cooler on the Comet IV cabs the "lockers" for NJT crew?"
Who wants to know????
Also, there was a string of 8 or so AMTRAK Baggage cars sitting quietly on the opposite side of the track between the NEC and PATH trackage further down the tracks.
Does AMTRAK and NJT have their own schedules regarding the movement and standing of equipment alongside these tracks? When I came back a week later, both of these sights were gone.
Those units might have been there for several reasons. The first might be that due to an electric shortage they needed to do the power change there instead of at Philly. There might have been a special movement (private cars, office cars, etc) that needed diesel power to the area.
However I think the most likley situation is the new NS intermodal train 25A and 26A that runs up and down the NEC. Last week Amtrak started to put some of their own power on these trains. The trains enter the NEC at LANE interlocking and originate either at Croxan or Oak Island yard. The Aldene yard is the only Amtrak storage yard in the north jersey area and would be the place to stick power when they were not needed for 25A/26A.
The freight looking unit is a B32-8P, a small group of 10 locos built for Amtrak by GE before the Genesis units. It is nothing more than a standard freight unit with a higher gearing and HEP. They are called the "Pepsi Cans" due to their initial paint scheme which made it resemble a can of Pepsi.
Great photo BTW, wonderful quality. Where did you take it from?
Also, when did Amtrak start naming its trains after Governors and who is Tommy Thompson?
Amtrak trains are NOT named for governors.
Michael
Washington, DC
Wow. I really thought you would have known that.
Sorry Buddy Boy...But that was pic wasn't taken by him...He linked it from the Amtrak Photo Archive here...http://198.30.209.3/amtrak/amtGEN42_169_183.html
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Walthers model train also has a model and uses that same picture
http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/140-9615
What are some factors that could contribute to lights being out and no passengers are allowed in that car?
If a window is broken, the MTA does not want people in their with broken glass. All the doors (Storm, and passenger) are locked and the car is isolated.
In this case, it looks like the passengers in the last car had no means of emergency egress. Shouldn't the last two cars have been isolated? Or is the general policy waived in a case like this? (Or am I incorrect entirely about the general policy?)
wayne
I once saw the last 4 cars of an A train with the lights off (including emergency lights), but there were people on it.
I was once on a W train where the lights stayed off when we went underground approaching 36th. I was hoping to keep the good view out the windows on the express run, but the lights went on as we left the station.
I was also once on an N train that had its lights off on the Sea Beach, despite the mini-tunnels. When the crew change took place at Kings Highway, the new T/O gave the old one a funny look and turned on the lights.
The only light you would get would come from the slits of light between the pillars along the local stops. Passing at 40MPH provides a nice strobe effect.
1. At Lex Av. - 59 St., I saw a metal panel of buttons rising about 8-10 ft above the trackage with a thick metal wire that seemed to connect to the 3rd rail. This is found in the No Clearance zone attached to the wall about 1/3 down from the front of the platform on the n/b track. What is this panel used for?
2. I saw the first of some "illegal advertising" on an R32 N train on our way to Ditmars. A guy was traveling from car to car with his "TRABAJA DESDE EN CASA" (Work At Home Ads) on 8.5" by 11" papers. He removed the plastic strip that holds the two plastic covers together on the ads on the sides of the ceiling, popped one of those papers inside the plastic ad cover and snapped the plastic strip back on. How often does this happen?
3. I enjoyed a nice express run to Ditmars because of construction. Is there ever a regular "express" to Ditmars?
4. Some R68 cars need serious window cleaning. All of the windows looked like they were under dirt, and this R68A #5158 I mentioned earlier (I took this from Ditmars all the way to CI, took 1 hr 9 mins for those on-timers) had the annoying high-pitched PA tone even after the C/R wasn't making any annoucements. How often are subway cars serviced?
5. I have written down: "Outside trackage at Bay 50th St." What's going on with this?
6. There is yet another metal panel of buttons, this time rising from the platform so the motorman can punch some things in at 25 Av. What is this panel used for?
7. There was a little, forest green-colored storage room at the front of the 18 Av. platform Manhattan-bound. This stored equipment for "Track Lubrication". How often are the tracks serviced, and does the MTA have other storage rooms right on the platform for other purposes?
8. Was there ever an express N in Brooklyn? Then what explains the space for four trackage in and around New Utrecht Av.?
Most recently was the legendary NX, which began with the opening of the Chrystie St connection in Nov. 1967. It began at Brighton Beach, went back to Stillwell, transferred to the Sea Beach tracks (see the track maps to see how this was done) and then went over these express tracks non-stop to 59 St/4 Av. From there, it followed the normal Sea Beach Express pattern to 57 St/7 Av. It only ran rush-hours. If I remember correctly, the theory was to give passengers on the southern most part of the Brighton line a faster express to Broadway than following the normal Brighton path. Sadly, the line only lasted about 6 months....but, then again, so did the Pony Express. We remember both to this day.
Prior to that, and I would say pre-1950 BMT afficianados can supply the exact dates, on what my Dad used to refer to as "beach days" on the weekends (perhaps only Sundays), a train would go from Franklin Av, down the Brighton Express, through Stillwell, over the Sea Beach "Express", 4 Av Express and through the Nassau loop (and thus return).
R32 N?? Whaaaat??
3. No. The W had weekday peak-direction express service from its introduction (7/23/01) until around the end of 2001, with the exception of the post-WTC reroute period and a brief test period shortly thereafter. It was abandoned because the busy local stations on the Astoria line were being underserved, and W's were running mostly empty with N's packed.
5. Yard leads.
6. Sounds like the standard punch box. I assume that in this case the T/O would punch here if he wanted the lineup for the yard (and I also assume that I'll be corrected if this is not the case).
8. The two express tracks were originally built to speed passengers to and from Coney Island. (Notice that the Sea Beach line itself has no express stations.) With Coney Island not the popular destination it once was, an express on the line wouldn't serve many people. North of Kings Highway, the southbound express track has been effectively removed, and the northbound express track is used for occasional bidirectional service, usually during weekend or midday GO's (more often on the W than on the N).
If so, there *might* be one or two out there...but surely not very often
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1715
There were several burger joints / lunchonettes liked this one. There was one, I believe on 37th Avenue in Jackson Heights, somewhere in the shopping area between 74th and 82nd Street.
There was also one out in Huntington Village on the Southeast Corner of Main Street (Rte 25A) and New Street, which is one block west of New York Avenue (Rte 110). It was known as the Hamburger Choo-Choo.
Sadly, one morning when the chef arrived to set up for the breakfast trade and lit the grill, a grease fire in the exhaust stack caused a large fire and the building had to be demolished.
If you search the archives on this board, you'll see that this topic was raised a while ago. One of the posters mentioned a bar, somewhere in the south that had some kind of an overhead railing system to delivery drinks only (no food) but they closed up. He believed that the railing system was sold to somebody in the mid-west.
Note to Steve Hoskins - please e-mail me privately, I have a question for you.
Keaton loved trains, be they model railroads or the real thing. He did the famous Civil War movie the General in which he used a hijacked locomotive to chase some bandits (in fact in that movie for passenger cars I believe he used some retired Pacific Electric cars), and there was a wreck scene where the locomotive crosses a bridge and then it collapses from a fire set to the center span.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Named Hamburger Junction, it featured a railroad theme. The counter was ringed by a Lionel train, with flatcars with plates glued to them plus (of course) a caboose. Your food arrived by train, right to where you were seated.
The waitresses (this is the 60's we're talking about) were decked out in denim skirts, white blouses and engineers caps and delivered food to the booths, since the booths weren't rail equipped.
As the railfan in attendence, it was the counter for me.
It was still there in 1971, when I went in the Navy. When I got back in 1974 (Naval Reserve) it was gone. Just the hole in the ground.
Today the site is occupied by a florist.
I gotta get my hands on a transporter.
Beam me to these coordinates, Scotty!!!!
http://www.digitalcity.com/albany/entertainment/venue.adp?vid=60367
Mark
On the G, I've seen the garbage train at times such as 3:30 to 4:30 (it depends). The G doesnt have trains that run very frequently at those times so the garbage train can easily do its business.
They were also through Roosevelt Avenue on D1 around 2:25 or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
It's really easier to say what is NOT dual contract construction.
These are NOT dual contract lines
-The whole IND and anything after the IND was built.
-The West Side IRT, above Times Square.
-The Lexington Line below Grand Central, including SOuth Ferry which was originally part of what is now the Lex Line.
-The Joroleman (4,5) tunnel and the Brooklyn line to Atlantic Ave.
-The 7 line from Grand central and the tunnel to Queens (the rest of the 7 line east of QB plaza is Dual contracts, and I even thing the Times Square station may be dual contracts, but I'm not sure of that).
-the Dyre Line
-The J line between Alabama Ave and Cypress Hills.
-The 3 line from 96th to Lenox.
-The 2 line frrom 135 to East 180th St.
-The L line from Sutter Ave to Rockaway Parkway
-The Franklin shuttle
-The Rockaway Line from Rockaway Blvd to Far Rockaway/Rock Park
-8th Ave on the L
-The Nassau Street Subway from Broad St to Marcy Ave
Not sure about the Sea Beach or Brighton Line
I think that about covers it. Someone can add if I have any errors or missed anything.
The Sea Beach sort of is and isn't. The route is incorporated in the Dual Contracts, but it was wholly paid for by the BRT. The portion south of 86th Street is not Dual Contracts.
Additionally...
The Nassau Street Loop, defined as the line from the Montague Street tunnel to the south end of Chambers Street (Line R) IS Dual Contract. The Centre Street Loop (from south end of Chambers to Essex Street) (Line J) and Williamsburg Bridge ARE NOT Dual Contracts.
The J Line from Marcy Avenue to Alabama Avenue is BRT structure improved under the Dual Contracts. The end of the M Line at Metropolitan Avenue including the surface right-of-way is NOT Dual Contracts. The surface portions of the Sea Beach and West End near Coney Island is NOT Dual Contrats. The Culver Cut (west of 9th Avenue to 4th Avenue) was pre-existing, improved under the Dual Contracts. Part of the Fourth Avenue subway construction pre-dates the Dual Contracts, but it was incorporated into the Dual Contracts before completion.
You're very close. Our old friend Hylan obstructed the completion of the 14th St.-Eastern and Nassau Street Lines, though the city was contractually obligated. The BMT pressed for completion, and Nassau Street was finally completed in 1931 under the administration of Gentleman Jim. The "IND look" of the stations has to do with the fact that the style of the IND, already under construction, was used for these new stations, rather than in anticipation of Unification.
8th-14th was not in the Dual Contracts AFAIK. It was probably built because the City wanted a connector to its new 8th Avenue Subway.
-In reference to the J between Marcy and Alabama, and I also assume the M between Myrtle/Broadway and Wyckoff, as that was also rebuilt under dual contracts, how much of the original 1880's structure is still there? Did they just add reinforcement, or did they tear down and rebuild as they went along the line. I have seen some very interesting photos in an "Old Brooklyn in Early photos" book that showed the area around Myrtle/Broadway and Myrtle was still a one island platform. The station looked to be in the location of the center platform, and the tracks were where the current platforms are now. It was such a rich looking pretty neighborhood! It's an astonishing photo, I don't even think the "M trian curve" was even installed yet, as there appear to be homes where that "curve" is now.
I'm not sure how it was done on the M, except that, like the J, it was rebuilt under traffic, so there was no question of complete demolition followed by construction. How much original iron/steel exists is doubtful. There was some use of temporary strcuture. I know in the case of the Broadway L, existing strcuture was actually jacked up and supported by wooden piers so service would be uninterrupted.
The M curve at Broadway/Myrtle was 1914, before the reconstruction, but probably later than the picture you're thinking of.
I, some friends at school, and parents all hate them. What's with the pole stuck in the middle of the bench, and the curved back that sticks you just right to be uncomfortable in your lower back?
What was Antenna Design thinking?
I think it is unfortunate that this design will exist on many, many, many future trains to come.
Now the seats on the R38/many others: Those were good bench seats, if the TA wants to stick with the bench type.
Julian
Let's just hope that it's not too late for this to change in the R-160.
Hmmm, I didn't realize that this was from the designers of the MVM user interface. Now it all begins to make sense.
The R110-B was probably my favorite subway train of all time. It's a shame it's not a production model.
Julian
Is anyone from the TA reading this!?
I never found them all that bad, but seeing that the R40M before the R42 order is similar to the R143 order before the R160 order, maybe they will learn from the mistakes of the R143 and improve the R160, much like the R42 was an improvement over the R40-40M. The R40M and R42 classes look similar, but they must have changed the design of the seats from due to customer complaints on the R40-40M's. The R42 seats are not the greatest either, but a definite improvement over the R40-40M.
Someone mentioned the R110B's. I never sat on the R110B. I always stood the few times I had ridden it. The seats looked similar to the R44-46 seats, except greenish-blue. Did they have similar comfort levels?
Presumably it's to give standees something to hold onto, if they're too short or are carrying something so that reaching up to the overhead grab bar is too difficult. In a crowded car there aren't enough poles in the middle of the car for this purpose, in the Redbirds people sometimes got stranded in a crowded car right next to the benches with no bar to hold onto, and ended up toppling over onto whoever's next to them.
the curved back that sticks you just right to be uncomfortable in your lower back?
Theoretically, it's better for you and your posture, by giving you lower back support. Of course, this only works if you sit up straight with your back positioned just so. If you slouch (like me), or if you just don't match up with the dimensions of the seat, they can be uncomfortable. I don't mind this so much, I just accept it as punishment for not sitting up correctly. =)
The pole in the bench, while being an obvious place for people for shorter stature to hold on to, divides the bench and does allow for the clear and finite seating of 3-4 for a bench capacity of 7.
The MTa would not spend more than $1000 per bench in each R142/a/3 if they didn't know what the hell they were doing.
I guess that means that the people who are in charge of the seating design aren't the same people who are in charge of proofreading the service advisory posters. ;-)
Wayne
As for the pole stuck in the middle of the seat, that can be moved to the side of the perpendicular facing seat.
Julian
P.S. I am currently in the process of creating a fantasy subway car, the R190 (for use on the A division). Once I have a draft render completed, I'll post it. Let's see what you all think of the seats =)
http://www.culvershuttle.com/news/culver-start.htm
: )
The line is named for Andrew Culver, who built a railroad at street level that traveled a route similar to the elevated structure that now bears his name.
David
Have a look at Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913 for details on all the major Brooklyn lines at the turn of the 20th century.
--Mark
Was there a stalled train at 14 St or 23 St? Or, did the T/O happen to punch in the wrong button?
Why did you try to leave the group on yesterdays trip??(I heard about it) LOL!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And yesterday on the 1 train some tourist lady asked, "When you get to 42nd Street, how do you know it's 42nd Street?" I had to go into the next car, I was laughing so much. I was already starting to giggle silently from her previous statement, "We don't look like tourists, do we?"
Try riding the 7 line this weekend and see how many lines announced as transfer point that should not be announced at all (e.g. N, 9, and rerouted E at Times Square; B and V at 5th Ave; V at 45tn Road-CHS, N at Queensboro Plaza and V and G.O'd G line at Roosevelt Ave, the G is shortened to Court Square this weekend due to the Manhattan-bound E and R trains running express). Tell me the failure rate is more than 50%.
Maybe someone has an answer why all these changes. Once upon a time the trains ran routes everyone was aware of. Oh yeh, you can't turn the clock back. I've heard that one before, too.
Trains on Nassau Street can only go to or from points accessed by either the Williamsburg Bridge or the Montague Tunnel.
Downtown trains on 8th Ave can only go out to Fulton Street, or possibly onto the Rutgers Tunnel, but only if they want to become more creative than anything that they have shown since the (K) train died.
Broadway Trains go across the Manhattan Bridge or through the Montague Hole, but can then only serve the Brighton, West End, Sea Beach or 4th Avenue lines.
They can ditz with letters and colors, but the tracks are what the tracks are and they cannot be anything else.
Elias
Of course most customers don't know. Most customers on the 1/9 don't go past 137th, so most customers on the 1/9 don't care either way. Why would anyone expect them to know?
Just watch what I will post on Tuesday.
That actually makes sense in a roundabout way. The White Plains Road 5, for example, never does. Neither do Brighton expresses when CI is open.
"It's amazing, NOBODY in my school (except some Chinese kid I knew freshman year who doesn't go here anymore) knows what the W train is! WTF!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't Count on it....
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Also, while it seems that the Bredas were designed with the external speaker in mind, when was the second sign space converted to a speaker on the Rohrs?
And lastly, I refer you to this picture of a Rohr on Blue Line. When did Metro switch from this to their current method of signing trains (with the sign in the door vs. the window)?
As you probably guessed, DC Metro is my main subway interest, mainly due to it being the subway most accessible to me (living about two hours away from Washington DC).
Ben F. Schumin :-)
You really need to take out a copy of "The Story of Metro" if you can find one.
What most here may not know is none of the Green Line destination on the original rolls ever saw revenue service as the roll signs were long gone on the Rohr cars when the first Green Line runs were made to Anacostia
John
Mark
p.s. John, can you re-attach a link to the pics that you took?
p.s.p.s.---Oren & John, anything to add?
Images of Mountain Maryland WMATA truncate roll sign.
John
Not ALL gone... I've seen one pair of Rohrs sitting in Brentwood that still has the rollsign. I usually spot it either as my Amtrak train arrives (and thanks to the Federal, I can leave DC later than usual), or when taking a Red between Union Station and R.I. Avenue. I wonder if it's still there.
Mark
p.s.---there's another one down in the Yard near Van Dorn
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Thanks,
Mark
Ah yes, one of the down sides of living in the big city. I can step in to my back yard here on the eastern shore of Maryland on any clear night and see Milky Way. I would guess "Mark" can do the same. Living out in the weeds does have certain advantages.
John
If so, who/when/where was one made?
If not, what would you go about including in such a set? (Imagine a toy-sized New York Subway) Regarding this point, I think, considering tunnels and such, I'd include a little bitty camera in the front of the model train plus a TV hookup.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
www.showbus.co.uk/efe/1938tube.htm
Going from what it says, none of the models are powered but it would seem a relativley easy task for someone with the know-how to fit a motor to them. A set of four cars sells for about 110 UK pounds. For prices, see:
www.goldstarstockists.com/miscranges/efetubes.htm
PS We don't play with trains. We operate a model railroad.
So far, I have:
-Two ten-car R-42 sets (pre and post GOH)
-A ten-car R-21 set (in redbird livery)
-A ten-car R-17 set (silver with blue stripes)
-A ten-car R-32 set (original scheme, with blue doors)
-An 8 car R-36 set (World's fair colors; cars 9 and 10 will be available soon.
-An MOW set
I am waiting for sets of R-12s (original colors ands white) and some more R-17s in different color schemes.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WASHINGTON -- With another strong winter predicted, the Washington area's major transportation service is ready for the worst.
Metro's new snow plan includes a provision to store roughly 300 rail cars underground -- about a third of the fleet. Leaders say this will enable the system to get up and running faster because they'll be able to clear above-ground tracks without having to move cars first.
But the biggest change is that Metro will keep 50 rail cars in service and keep them running, rain or shine ... snow or sleet. Lem Proctor is Metro's chief operating officer for rail service and says emergency service will run in longer intervals.
"The service would be typical of what we run late night ... the half-hour to 20-minute type service."
Metro officials say that strategy would help them quickly clear snow from rail lines and yards, allowing normal service to resume in two days, instead of the six days it took after last winter's massive President's Day storm.
Metro's service map for heavy snowfall. (Click for larger view)
The new and improved snow plan also follows Metro's shutdown during Hurricane Isabel in September.
Metro officials say they plan to give riders at least two hours notice before limiting service.
Where did you find this press release?
Thanks,
Mark
Mark
Wimps. The last time the Toronto system shut down because of weather we had 4 feet of snow on the ground.
The Metro Board today adopted a policy to enable Metro administrators to respond to requests for additional service to accommodate commercial special events, and in doing so, request the organizers of those events to pay the full cost of the special service in advance. Under the terms of this new policy, no special service will be provided without the advance deposit.
After the event for which an early opening or late closing service has been provided, Metro will reimburse the event organizer for any passenger revenues that are collected during the additional hours of operation up to, but not exceeding, the amount of the advance payment.
Metro officials currently charge event organizers $18,000 per hour to open the Metrorail system early or to keep it open late, although that fee may change from time-to-time to reflect operating costs. The cost for enhanced service such as providing rush-hour service during non-peak hours will depend on the operating costs during the specific hours requested for such service.
required to run in service? Are they required to be signed in any particular way? Are they even required to go in/out of service at any specific location? Every time I ride these particular trains, they behave differently. I once boarded a Z train on the middle track at Broadway Junction at around 9AM and it made all local stops to Myrtle Avenue.
And one more thing, is it OK when a train says "Shuttle" on both ends when it's supposed to say "Not In Service"?
Robert
Robert
Z trains going inbound in the evening do make all local stops. I've caught a southbound Z at Bowery several times at 5 PM. They then go skip stop outbound.
Still a riddle, because by the time it got to Broad St, rush hour would be over and there shouldn't be any more outbound Z trains.
VC Madman
tim
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
Report me all you like. I don't use ancillary equipment.
Photography is not terrorism.
I've lost count. Is this the one with ties to Grover Norquist or am I getting my brands of terrorists mixed up?
There is to be NO PICTURES OR VIDEO TAKEN OF THE NYCT SYSTEM OR ITS STATIONS.This is not to hurt Buffs but to hurt people who want to hurt the people who ride on a daily basis.It is very hard to distinguish a buff from a terroist,plain and simple if I were still on the road and saw someone (I DONT CARE WHO) taking pictures their ass is getting reported.Look for the picture and video rule to be ENFORCED quit heavily.
TERROR TERROR TERROR vote republican TERROR TERROR TERROR vote republican TERROR TERROR TERROR
Thanks for delivering the campaign message of the month.
1) Go to MTA, say I'd like a press pass to take pictures, show ID, have them do a background check, and satisfy them that you're not hanging out with shady types.
2) There are thousands of subway pictures on the web. Go find one.
Remember that your rights extend as far as it is safe for it to go. Everyone knows New York's lifeline is the subways. Since our RushHourSpecialist would like to be able to do his work without shady types looking over his shoulder, that is his right.
Your right to take pictures does not and will not come over the safety of others. If you don't want to get hassled, contact the MTA. No one will bug you if they know who you are.
3) Take all the photographs you like while respecting the relevant rules and regulations, which I posted elsewhere in this thread.
Photography does not endanger anyone's safety. (If it did, it would be prohibited!) End of story.
As others have said, official NYCT rules specifically allow the taking of photos. I don't know who told you otherwise but that person must be stupid.
So you're now in charge of making policy for NYCT? Congratulation on your promotion!
Said Who??? HUH??? This is a lies, nothing but lies
Just tying up some last-minute questions before I go to press next Monday.
1) Have the new Manny-B routes that have been discussed here ad-nauseum finally been carved in stone by the MTA? i.e. D-West end, B-Brighton, W-new incarnation of the EE, etc.
2) Who gets to skip DeKalb? Looks like both the D and N will be hot trains now. Although the West End express has had the bypass seemingly for eons, my money's on the Sea Beach getting the -ahem- fast track.
3) Is there a definite date for the changes yet? I saw Feb. 22nd being bandied about but I've seen nothing official yet.
4) What happens to the Q? Is it now the local from Stillwell (see below) to Astoria or 57/7??
5) I'm under the impression that the Bridge will reopen in conjunction with Stillwell tracks 1-6 reopening. Any truth to that? If there is, I'm guessing the Q takes up residence on tracks 3&4, the F goes back where it always was on tracks 5&6, the D gets a temporary home on tracks 1&2 and the N stays in exile until the station reopens.
6) Any word on a tentative completion date of the Nassau Street reconfiguration? They're already through the wall at the bottom of Canal Street and it looks like there's steel in the trackway (I only got a brief glimpse as I rolled past it Queens-bound).
7) Any date for Q2-Y4 yard lead opening on the northbound Canarsie line? I'm guessing J2A is now back in service (track connection's there), but it's still pretty chaotic in that area. I've also noticed the didn't take their sweet time stripping the Snediker el down to bare steel, and it looks like the structure will be down by spring or summer '04 at the latest.
8) I've seen a September update on the progress of the CBTC project, but does anybody have news beyond that? I'd heard rumors of limited CBTC revenue-service testing starting in February in one small section of track. Dunno Where. Can anybody bring me up to speed on this?
Thanks very much to one and all for your help. It's greatly appreciated, and I honestly can't thank each and every one of you enough. With any luck, I will have Version 3.5 printed and ready to ship on Tuesday afternoon next week. If you're thinking of getting a copy, please order ahead so I can mail it out Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm leaving on Thanksgiving for a few days R&R to recuperate from the long hours slaving over this update (grin). And to eat lots of turkey and watch grown men fight turf wars over an oblong chunk of pigskin.
Cheers, and save some Mashed Potatoes for me!
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday!
2) Any 4th Avenue express that runs over the bridge will bypass DeKalb. That means the D and N both, just as the B and N both bypassed DeKalb for those three months in 1990. This apparently will apply on weekends as well as weekdays. Late nights the N runs local and via tunnel; I don't know if the late night D will be local or express in Brooklyn (but it will obviously use the bridge). Weekends the N runs local only north of Canal.
3) The latest rumor I've heard is that it won't happen on 2/22 after all.
4) The Q will run exactly as the circle-Q does now, 24/7. Astoria will be served by the N 24/7 and by the W on weekdays.
5) No, tracks 1-6 won't be ready until May or thereabouts. The F, N, and Q will be terminating where they do now in the interim.
6) No clue, but it's been as you describe for close to a year.
7) Is J2A the connection from the NB L to the SB J? Yes, it's open -- I rode through it in both directions (on a single-track shuttle) on Sunday.
8) No clue. There are still one or two R-42 (or R-40M) sets running on the L every day.
Really? If that's true, then great!!! I won't even be here on the 22nd!
On pade 67 of version 3.42 of the book (8th Av-6th Av Connections via 53rd St), I spotted what looks like to be an error: you have written "V: On D3 Track at 5th Ave. Accept bottom yellow at X-36 ball. Proceed on D1 track local on 6th Avenue." Shouldn't that last sentence read "Proceed on B1 track on 6th Avenue."? There is no D1 Track in the track diagram on p67, but B1 is the downtown local track for 6th Av., as you have indicated in your track diagram.
Koi
It isn't part of the original station but since it was added as part of the Arts for Transit program it might just be there somewhere.
I see Amtrak lists Atlantic City as a terminal and show connections in Philly. The trip from Atlantic City to Philly, is that NJT train or is it a bus conection?
Any info is greatly appreciated
Amtrak Schedule Planner
The connections are made to Amtrak trains. The rail trip can take up to 4 hours.
As a Greyhound buff, I would agree with Amanda that Greyhound's service out of Atlantic City is cheaper, faster and more frequent. In fairness, Amtrak may be a little more upscale.
You can check Greyhound's service at
Greyhound scheduling
There is no good way to travel anywhere in the northeast on the evening before Thanksgiving. Roads are packed and trains are too.
Greyhound is probably best because the heaviest traffic will be out of NYC, not into it.
If you take a train from Phila to NYC that evening you are at risk for standing the whole way.
One more quesition, I selected the pick up ticket at station option. Will I be able to pick up the ticket at NYP with my Credit Card and then overnight express the tickets to my relative in South Jersey or can the ticket only be picked up at 30 Street Station since that is the origin of the trip?
All input is appreciated.
Piggo12: You can pick up your ticket at any Amtrak station.
Elias
--Z--
Take an NJT Trenton Express train and connect to SEPTA at Trenton. Then you take SEPTA R7 to 30 St Station and connect for the NJ Transit train to Atlantic City. I know 3 trains is pushing it, but you might save a buck or two over $78 round trip on Amtrak. And in another post, you mentioned having a 4 year old traveling. The sights of so many trains might actually amuse him/her. Just catch an evening express and you might cut some time over an NEC Local or uugghh, Greyhound.
Regards,
Jimmy
SUV, light-rail car collide during train's test run
......
"The lady in the truck, she made an illegal left turn," Metro police Sgt. Antonio Ford said. "She cut right in front of the train."
........
Another one that's so clueless, license removal just ain't enough.
I bet she voted no 2 weeks ago
From the story:
"He hit me and I fishtailed to the middle of the intersection," Marino said. "I had no time to be scared because I never saw it coming...."[yes, let's all be upset because you didn't have the time to freak out instead of getting out of the way]
She also told News2Houston that she was accustomed to being able to make a left turn at that intersection; however, that turn is now illegal.
The no left-hand turn sign was posted next to a one-way sign.
"I think it's very confusing," driver Ray Owles said. [yes, the no left turn sign is very confusing!!!]
Officials said the trains travel very slowly and are shadowed by METRO police.[police are following these trains and are ticketing stupid people]
and my favorite quote that shouldn't even be printed since it's without merit:
An anti-rail spokesman said he was not surprised by the accident.
"We expect a lot more of these kinds of things will be occurring. You're going to have conflicts with automobiles and conflicts with pedestrians," said Barry Klein. [but i guess pedestrians and automobiles now mix all of a sudden]
-----
get these people off the road. They're going to need that train.
Can anyone please confirm this?
Given the previous announcement that the last train was going to be the first one in, I would believe that the first "service" at the station will be an inbound.
Please post your plans online, guys. I want to do this as well, but I have very limited experience on PATH lines.
"Governors to Ride into the Station on the Last PATH Train
To Leave the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001
New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey and New York Governor George E. Pataki will officially open the temporary PATH station at the World Trade Center site on Sunday, November 23, 2003 restoring a vital transportation link that was severed in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The Governors will mark this historic milestone on Sunday by riding from the Exchange Place PATH Station in Jersey City to the World Trade Center site on the same PATH train that was the last to carry people to safety from the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.
The temporary World Trade Center PATH Station the final piece of the Port Authoritys $566 million program to restore rail service between New Jersey and Lower Manhattan is the first construction project to be completed at the World Trade Center site since September 11, 2001. The station also is the first public space to open within the site since the terrorist attacks.
Media wishing to cover the opening should arrive at Exchange Place no later than 10:30 a.m. on Sunday, or at the temporary World Trade Center PATH Station no later than 11 a.m. on Sunday. Media credentials will be required.
There will be a pool for print and broadcast media at three positions:
In the front of the first car of the PATH train, to film the trains journey to the World Trade Center site. The broadcast pool will be CNN; the print photo pool will be The Star-Ledger.
In the PATH car with Governors McGreevey and Pataki. The broadcast pool will be WNBC-TV; the print photo pool will be The Associated Press; the print reporting pool will be The New York Times and The Star-Ledger.
At the top of the escalators on the concourse level of the temporary World Trade Center PATH Station. The broadcast pool will be CNN; the print photo pool will be The New York Post.
Regular passenger service at the temporary World Trade Center PATH station will begin at 2 p.m. on Sunday. Customers will be allowed to enter the station for free until 12:01 a.m. on Monday, November 24."
It seems like the pols may ride much earlier than 2PM. Any thoughts?
On late Sunday morning, for the first time since Sept. 11, 2001, a PATH train from New Jersey will pull into Lower Manhattan. The same eight PATH cars that were the last to leave the World Trade Center with passengers before the Twin Towers collapsed will pull into a temporary station at Ground Zero. Gov. James E. McGreevey, New York Gov. George Pataki and other dignitaries will be aboard the ceremonial train.
Some of the ad space formerly for PSAs will still be used to government-sponsored PSAs, the rest will be turned into paying ad space.
Oh, the entire photo set can be seen here.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Even so, that still doesnt make any sense, what the F@#K would R32's be doing coming from CI and why would R40M's be going to Jamaica???
The R32s would be taken off and the motorman would operate the out-of-service R40Ms back to CIY.
It does seem like a weird policy though. Maybe they don't want the motorman to wait for a train back considering the headways during late night service.
I find this strange. Why single out the Port Washington line for such a restriction? And is this actually in effect?
Someone should notify Kevin Walsh.
I've seen the sign, and it begs the question, was Track 15 ever designated Port Washington-bound only?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Elias
Railroad heritage. Historically, you could always drink, eat and smoke on railroad trains. Over the years, this was increasingly restricted, until smoking was completely banned, what? 15 years ago. But you can still smoke on open-air platforms.
Drinking is tolerated so long as people behave, but what used to be the last smoking car is generally accepted as the "drinking car" now.
With the advent of M1s these bar cars turned into "Bar Carts" and they were pulled off of the trains at Jamaica, so that they could be returned to Penn for the next train.
Clearly the sign coresponds to the fact that the bar carts would be kept on the platforms.
The LIRR had a liquer license for their bar cars, any alcoholic issues would refer back to that license, just like it would at any other bar.
Elias
First, its tiny - only four cars can platform there. Second, half of it is covered by the overpass for Route 878 (Nassau Expressway), so a portion of it is perenially in shadow and amidst the roar of cars passing above. Third, it has no ticket office or even a station building and according to "Change at Ozone Park," it has never had one since the day the station opened. Fourth, it only has a shelter on one side of the station.
Inwood station is not a great place to be.
Marshall Plan To Preserve A Redbird
By Stephen McGuire
It looks like our idea was right on track. The end of the line for at least one of the retired Redbird subway cars that ran along the boroughs 7 Train line for years could be in Queens, after all.
In response to a Tribune article discussing the preservation of a Redbird in Queens, the Borough Presidents office contacted us this week to let us know they are exploring the feasibility of keeping one of the crimson cars in the borough where they served for nearly four decades.
The Borough President is looking at preserving a Redbird on the side of the highway near JFK International Airport as a railroad car-sized information center, said Dan Andrews, spokesperson for Borough President Helen Marshall. Andrews said the Borough President got the idea after seeing a railroad car booth that serves as a tourist information center alongside the highway in Nassau County.
Borough President Helen Marshall hopes to preserve a retired Redbird subway car in Queens.The booth could serve those getting off their planes, Andrews explained.He added, Of course there are issues of safety, and transporting the car would involve money. There would be a lot of time and bureaucracy involved. [But] we are in the process of meeting with transit officials. When the Trib contacted the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) this week to ask what the agency thought of the Borough Presidents idea, a spokesperson said it depends on whether the cars are available. In recent weeks, MTA sources have said that the likelihood of preserving a Redbird in Queens was good if somebody asked. I dont think we would say no, MTA Spokesman Paul Fleuranges said shortly after the last 11-car Redbird train made its final run along the Flushing line on Nov. 3. In order to be preserved, all asbestos from the subway car would have to be removed and the Redbird would have to be given a clean bill for transfer by the Environmental Protection Agency, an MTA spokesperson said. In addition, potential buyers would have to foot the bill for transportation of the subway car off of MTA property to a display area. How much would a Redbird cost?
According to the MTA, the price is negotiable.
The Redbird subway cars were assigned to the number 7 line for the 1964 Worlds Fair in Flushing Meadows-Corona Park. During their years of service, the subway cars were painted a number of different colors, including their namesake red, from 1985 until they were retired earlier this month.
Most of the cars, which have been phased out by the MTA in favor of newer models and were officially retired two weeks ago, are being dumped off the coasts of New Jersey and Maryland to act as an artificial reef.
The supply of Redbirds is limited.
About 100 Redbirds in total will be spared from being sent into the depths of the Atlantic Ocean six will be used as a movie train and one will be used as a work train.
Until Marshalls proposal was unveiled, there were no plans for preserving a car in Queens.
If they left them in service, they wouldn't have had to buy R142S.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1121lightrail21.html
If the link doesn't work, go to www.azcentral.com and type in "kinkisharyo" in the SEARCH box.
Frank Hicks
Let me throw this into ring:
Some plans I have seen online for the northern terminus of the Second Avenue Subway show the line heading west for a couple of blocks and terminating at or near the current Lexington Avenue 125th Street station. How much sense would it make if they continued that short 2 block crosstown section further down 125th street to Broadway? This could provide Second Avenue riders with convenient transfers at each of the lines it crosses (Lenox Ave 2/3), St. Nicholas Ave (A/B/C/D), and Broadway (1), as well as the proposed transfer at Lex (4/5/6).
Of course, the transfer at Broadway & 125th would require hiking up or down the stairs to the elevated portion of the 1 line.
Clearly Two different trains are required at the Northern End, so my Second Avenue Subway might look like this:
(N) Fordham University to Coney Island via Sea Beach via Broadway Express using the 63rd Street connector to move from 2nd to Bway.
(T) Hudson River to Coney Island via West End via Christie Street.
(W) 179th Street (Hillside) to Water Street via 2nd Avenue via 63rd Street Tunnel
Elias
I don't like the seabeach so much because you really can't see much from it.. not unless you got a railfan window. That isn't the case unfortunately, due to the "N's" over use of the 68's.
It's also a pretty slow ride to say the least.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
PS: But what is lacking along the seabeach route is gained when the line enters Queensboro plaza. WHAT A VIEW FRED..
Huh? The N is nothing but 40 slants!
*smile*
N Broadway
Next stop on Fred's fabulous Sea Beach, Kings Highway, and enjoy those nice mini tunnels we are going to he zooming through.
Is the B train going to run on the Sea Beach in 2004 then?
:-)
Yes! there is history... but I'm talking about the view. I want to see what's going on.. and this is difficult with the Seabeach.. Maybe one day they might realize that the line is better elevated so people can get a better view of the neighborhood while the train is traveling.
Anyway, I know the "N" is a seabeach line, but you have to remember I got the "W" running to Astoria as well.. And I have to tell you, it runs a lot better then the "N" does. 2, sometimes 3 "W's" per one "N" I've been discussing with David to change my handle to the "W" because I like it so much.. Watch what happens on January 1st everyone.
W Broadway Line
N Broadway Line
Astoria
An alternate idea was to link the line into the IND line under St. Nicholas and send it towards the Bronx or Washington Heights. I don't like that idea quite as much, since it leaves the west end of 125th hanging and it creates an inconvenient transfer for IND passengers to/from the south. The issue was debated at length a few months ago. All I'll say at this point is that I won the debate. (Well, at least in my opinion I did!)
One thing discussed earlier, which isn't in the EIS at all, is having the SAS pop out of the ground and take over the Jerome Avenue Line. It may actually be something that wasn't thought of (if you go through all the alternatives, just about everything ever discussed here was thought of). That would be another way to get to the Concourse Yard, or rather the Jerome Avenue Yard.
In this scenario, one of the Lex local trains would terminate at 161st Street-Yankee Stadium, and the other would take the place of the #5. The Pelham Line becomes the express.
That alternative would pull another whole group of riders off the Lexington Avenue line. People would switch from the 4/5/6 to the SAS at 125th only if they were going to the employment centers on the far east side. That's a lot of jobs, but it isn't Midtown. On the other hand, if it were a one-seat ride, most of the people on the Jerome Avenue Line might stay on the SAS.
I know about the original plan, and they could still do it, but I think the Jerome alternative would be cheaper and pull more people off the Lex.
I wouldn't mine a take over of the IRT #5 line, since there earlier the line was run by B division stock. The platforms were simply scale down to accomodate the IRT size cars. It can easily be reconverted for the new SAS "B" rolling stock.
N Broadway
N Broadway Line
With the Cross Bronx Expressway a crawlway everything is coming onto the local crosstown streets (e.g. Tremont Ave & East 180th St.) and it is becoming impossible to go East to West in The Bronx without going up to Moshulo Parkway, Gunhill Road or 233rd St. - Fordham Road is jammed all the time too.
1. As before, PATH still thinks you can get the (2) at Christopher Street.
2. At WTC, connections to the A/C/E, N/R/W, and 2/3 are not mentioned.
2. You are correct, also the nearby Fulton St/B'way Nassau complex is not mentioned.
2. At the WTC station, they previously have only mentioned underground connections to NYC subways, so I would not expect them to mention the Fulton St complex.
Frank Hicks
-Stef
Julian
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Why are the storm doors singled out?
Is this called "Dentitti?
Lol,
Julian
I vow, I vow, the hundreds of thousands of railfans in New York City will turn 'em in to the TA police if it's the last thing we do.
I'm warning you, you filthy disgraceful vandals out, one day we WILL have all your bloody asses.
I'm warning you, you filthy disgraceful vandals out, one day we WILL have all your bloody asses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You don't have to take things so seriously.
I vow, I vow, the hundreds of thousands of railfans in New York City will turn 'em in to the TA police if it's the last thing we do.
I'm warning you, you filthy disgraceful vandals out there, one day we WILL have all your bloody asses.
(Typo on previous one)
LOVE TO PUT HIM IN A ROOM WITH A RACK OF PRR.GG-1 HORNS AND BLOW HIS
EAR DRUMES OUT.
GUARD YOUR EARS!!! With Gormons.
Let me know whats going on.
On second thought, the West Jersey Chapter NRHS meeting is this Monday night; 7:30 at Haddonfield Borough Hall. The program will be on the South Jersey River Line, or as Frank Kozempel, former Chapter Historian and one of Monday's speakers would like it to be called, the Riverfront Line, which shouldn't be confused with the New Orleans Riverfront Line.
Hey Chuchubob, make sure you mention my name idea...The Doggle.
I was on the first revenue train at midnight on the 1/9. I was my unofficial 9/11 rememberance. I'm not sure the wife will let me out for another midnight, and I have a lot of work to do this weekend anyway. But at 2 pm I may be able to swing it.
The GM of PATH Told me, it will mostly go from Hoboken. One though will leave NWK at 2pm though.
From Hoboken, the WTC-bound train is expected to leave at 2 p.m.; stop at the Pavonia Newport station about 2:03 p.m.; Exchange Place at 2:06 p.m. and at WTC at 2:10 p.m.
FRESH FROM THE GM OF THE PATH.
Failing step one, you can guess an origin or you can wait at Exchange Place. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll probably start at Hoboken.
Here's my reasoning. I'm guessing that the first train will be to WTC. I don't think we've been informed if the first train will be at 2pm or will be leaving its origin at 2pm. If the former, then we have no way of knowing which branch it will be coming from. If the latter, then the train that leaves Hoboken at 2pm will reach WTC before the train that leaves Newark at 2pm, since it's a shorter run. With no further information, Hoboken seems like the better bet.
Good point. Then it must be the WTC that is opening at 2 PM.
I will post some of my pictures as soon as I get them loaded onto the computer and re-sized, etc.
www.railfanwindow.com
I was just posting what I was told by the PA people in charge. As I said, they hustled the media out around 12:30.
I did go back there around 3:30 PM, and at that time there were groups of PATH employees and their friends/families touring the area and taking lots of pictures, as well as a number of impromptu railfan tours. Lots of people were taking pictures with point-and-shoot cameras, and I saw some consumer camcorders as well. I didn't see any people with larger cameras. Perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the effort, or perhaps they were overwhelmed and gave up.
There were a number of construction projects underway with sections roped off - crews were working on wiring up the QuickCard vending machines as well as doing something with a large group of turnstiles.
comic book store guy: Will there be any more splurging today?
We just put many of our bags on sale. Plus, if you sign up for our
mailing list, you will see a special offer on Sweatshirts, too.
We have many cool new products printed with the NYC Subway Map all over them, both tees, bags and wallets. Perfect gifts for Railfans and those who love them!
http://nycsubwayline.com
Take care!
Subway grrl
This would create a problem at the Dyre Ave terminus. Rebuild the station to original as a local station ? The current setup would have to be changed, at great expense.
Bill "Newkirk"
Whose got the official numbers?
Nope, Pelham Parkway is very lightly used, and is one of the least used stations in the entire system. Baychester doesn't fare too much better. Gun Hill Road wins hands down.
Dyre Ave - 320 (out of 422 stations/complexes) in system with 973,482 fares paid in 2000
Baychester Ave - 331 in system with 924,798
Gun Hill Rd - 246 with 1,449,126
Pelham Parkway - 381 with 641,137
Morris Park - 405 with 418,034
As for it being similar to the White Plains line, the only station lower or near that number on the White Plains end is 219 St - (267 rank) Without wasting time posting counts, here's the ranks:
Wakefield - 320
Nereid - 349
233 - 287
225 - 344
219 - 367
Gun Hill Rd - 260
Burke - 346
Allerton - 262
Pelham Parkway - 202 (compare that to Dyre!)
Bronx Park East - 397
East 180th - 248
the only station lower or near that number on the White Plains end is 219 St - (267 rank)
219 St = 367. Of course the lowest on the White Plains line overall (north of E180) is Bronx Park East.
You can't get any idea about the complete ridership of the complete
branch and only with a lot of thinking a very very inexact impression.
For are mor exact impresseion i need at least a list like that, for
comparing:
Rank 1-12 over 10 million
Rank 13-30 over 9 million
and so on.
BTW: Where do you get the counts and ranks?
If you have a list of all 400-odd stations and their ranks and riderships, why not scan it in and e-mail it to anyone interested?
True, and I said it as a joke, but they workers really did "hide" a set of Low-V's on the express track there many years ago when they were being scrapped. I think that set of Low-V's was saved with the help of that express track. So the Dyre Express may not be as useless as we have been making it sound.
When the Dyre Ave line was reopened in 1941 using surplus Second Ave "el" gate cars, the express tracks were retained with catenary in case if the NYW&B was resusitated. Of course this never came to fruition and the catenary wire and towers were removed for WW II scrap.
Bill "Newkirk"
In 2002 the Pelham line had 25.3 million passengers and the White Plains Rd line had 28.8 million; the Dyre Ave line had 4.7 million. The Jerome Ave line had 24.4 million. Transfer stations not included.
So the White Plains line has the highest ridership.
N Bwy
That should be relatively easy to fix.
Arti
Also the Lexington would have to run more 5 trains during middays, since it will be WPR vs Jerome, what about Weekend G.O.s which have 5 service as a shuttle, WPR can't have a shuttle almost every weekend?
I suspect your WPR figure runs from 149 thru 241. How much of that ridership is North of E180? My guess would be slightly under half.
So really there should be a 2:1 split between WPR and Dyre.
White Plains Lcl: 39 minutes, 36 seconds
White Plains Exp: 24 minutes, 50 seconds
Time gained by Exp: 14 minutes, 46 seconds
New Rochelle Lcl: 24 minutes, 26 seconds
New Rochelle Exp: 13 minutes, 44 seconds
Time gained by Exp: 10 minutes, 42 seconds
With these sorts of gains from expresses, they would definitely be worthwhile if there would be enough of a ridership base in Westchester county.
I think the station by station guide at this site is excellent, although it is not in book format.
That station is going to look awesome when it's done.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday! EEEk! Deadline!!
Any idea when the posts were made? I searched on just about everything I could think of, and the only things I found were references to that wretched film.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 COMING Next Tuesday! EEEeeeeeeeek!! Deadline!!
Dave
D for what?
www.forgotten-ny.com
j/k
They are Platform Locations. You got a 12 car train going back to Babylon, but only four cars will be open at Location .....
(Or leastwise that is what I thought they were, and so that is what they are unless someone else says different)
: ) Elias
Do M1s have the blue stripe along the side?
Also: Where da M2's?
www.forgotten-ny.com
for the blue stripe, the older M1's have em. Dont know about the M3's.
For the M2, it has a small cab window, and are in the 8400-8800 series. Some are bar cars.
Two ways to differentiate:
Easy way: Car numbers. 9771-9946 for M-3, 9001-9770 for M-1.
Not so easy way: M3 have one side window in the center of each car replaced by a black grille; this is for the air-exchanger. Other than that they are pretty much the same.
wayne
wayne
They be on the NH, they have pantographs on top!
Elias
Bill "Newkirk"
But watch out, there are a couple of M-1's with sliding M-3 style cab windows. #9386 is one of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why'd they do that? That's not fair.
Being not fair has nothing to do with it. Maybe the LIRR was in an experimenting mood to see if the sliding cab window was better than the drop sash. Seems the experiment didn't pan out since only a couple of cars were done that way.
Bill "Newkirk"
The area where the front signs were are now used for the ASC. The side signs used to have clear glass on the interior and exterior, before they were blanked over.
Back in the late 70's, I used to see an electrical connector harness dangling but never a sign box. They were probably all disposed of like the M-3 signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Andy: Only the LIRR M-1's had provisions for rollsigns. The cars ordered for the then Penn-Central never had them.
However there are at least four Metro-North M-1A's numbered at the top of the series that have provisions for the rollsigns. I believe that these cars were orginally ordered for the LIRR but somehow were transfered to the Metro-North Lines. They have been running over here for years.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks Ray: I always wondered were those cars came from.
Larry, RedbirdR33
If you're inside the car look to the center. Certain components of car equiptment that were carried in the undercarriage of the M-1's have been moved up into the car body on the M-3 resulting in the loss of two seats in the center of the car. You will see the equiptment closets protruding from the wall on the M-3'.s
BTW the Metro-North cars are designated respectively M-1A and M-3A to differentiate them from the LIRR M-1 and M-3. One difference between the two railroads is the placement of the third rail shoes.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/LIRR
- PM southbound F express from Bway Lafayette to Jay, stopping only at Delancey.
- Midday 7 in either direction express from Queensboro Plaza to GCT.
Also 1 #6 express from Astor Place to BB.
I don't really see the value. They spend so much time announcing that the train will run express that they can't possibly save more than a minute by skipping the stations they skip. And since they skip the lower usage stations they're not skipping long dwell time stops.
The only one that really made sense to me was the 6: if there's a big gap in front of it, it needs to catch up to avoid screwing up the uptown rush hour.
Battery runs sometimes make sense. They often make sense going away from the rush, if scheduled service is already more than enough to satisfy the demand. They often make sense on lines with no express service. They might even make sense at busy local stations in the peak direction as long as a prior express has filled in on the local track, if that ever happens. But in the context they're often instituted, they don't accomplish anything except to delay passengers and overcrowd platforms and trains.
Here are some of the battery runs I've seen (aside from the 1/9):
evening 7: 74-61-QBP
midday(?) 6: 14-Bleecker-BB
weekend 6: 125-96-all stops
midday C: all stops-103-72-all stops
rerouted midday orange Q (this happened immediately after the C incident): W4-Delancey-Jay-all stops to Kings Highway
weekend C: 125-59
weekend(?) A: Rock Blvd-Euclid
evening(?) J: Crescent-BJ
weekend C (on the express track, with a C/R who was insisting we were going local): 59-125-145
I've also seen two odd ones on the G. One, during the Ultimate Ride, was the last southbound train before a late night GO began. Understandable, but there should have been an announcement to take the E in front and transfer at Queens Plaza -- between the single-tracking north of Bedford-Nostrand, the transfer to a single-track shuttle at Bedford-Nostrand, and the missed connection with an A at Hoyt, the battery run cost us an hour. The other, midday, I think, was on a northbound G at Carroll. (I was standing on the other platform so I don't know which stops it made.)
afternoon pre-rush circle-Q: Sheepshead-Kings-Newkirk-all stops
The timing was kind of odd. This was the second local in a row at Sheepshead Bay, but the gap between locals wasn't overly long. At Newkirk it met a real express and resumed local service.
5 minutes to 3 days.
At Jamaica and even Stamford there can be another NY bound train in 5 minutes.
At Pearl River and other places after the last train on Friday morning the next train is Monday morning.
Those are the extremes. More typically, most MNRR lines have service every half hour in southern Westchester and every hour in the zones beyond Stamford, White Plains, and Croton. Wassaic and the west-of-Hudson lines are more limited.
LIRR service varies tremendously.
The Waterbury branch has the least service on Metro North, something like four to six trains a day.
Which has just been reduced.
I didn't even consider the Waterbury and Danbury lines since they're wholly within CT.
A few Danbury trains run through to Grand Central, so in that sense it's not a Connecticut-only line. Not so for Waterbury, as all of the branch's trains terminate in Bridgeport.
Elias
With a few exceptions, especially the LIRR between Penn and Jamaica.
Most rush hour locals terminate in Great Neck, where you can switch to a train to Port Washington.
Also, I think weekend late nights is every 2 hrs.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Yes, BUT
You still have to look at the timetable, cause during rush hour you might just blow past the station you want, and who knows when you will be able to make a reverse move along that line.
Elias
Elias
How does a train "one"?
How does a train "one"?
Faster than a wabbit.
So I'll take it as a place where you could feel you were in an earlier time by being there. Stillwell Avenue is out now, as is Franklin Avenue on the shuttle.
I would choose some of the following:
Avenue H, Brighton Line.
9th Avenue, West End Line.
Crescent Street, Jamaica Line.
I'd have to go with Chambers [J/M/Z], Sutter [L], and Central [M].
Look at the right-hand side of this photo. Except for the signs and the advertisements, the back edge of the platform looks more or less the same. Very little of it was replaced with the standard folded-ivory walls.
You are right though, I never thought about it, but Central does still have an "old fashioned" look. It's less than maybe 10 years ago, but still more than all the other stations on the J or M, as they are covered at Knickerbocker, and on the J most of them have been replaced.
Regards,
Jimmy
D Train at 59th...
til next time
Sorry Douce, joec got the correct answer on Friday with this post, and the photographer confirmed it with this humorous response.
It's a pretty cool shot. When I first heard the MOD trip was going to start there, I didn't think about it too much until i started seeing people's photos. It would have been cool if they would have let us baord the trip at one of the abandoned platforms at Chambers St when some of the trips started there. Oh yeah, those abandoned platforms look like a bomb went off on them, so no chance there. The one at 59th St always looks well maintained to me, at least compared to other unused platforms.
This was a message that was already playing when a R142A #6 emerged out of the BB loop and opened its doors.
What do you hear?
"Electronic third gaps are in service," not "Electronic third gaps car in service."
At least from the recording, anyhow.
Maybe it's just a test phrase of the automated announcement system, something that happens each time the train begins the begin of its route.
That's my theory, anyhow. The phrase just makes no sense.
Seize these abandoned bikes, fix them up and paint them a recognizable color. Then place them at the stations for free use by anyone needing transportation within the ward.
The result would be an inexpensive, non-polluting transportation system for the ward. It would be far cheaper to maintain than any feeder system designed to achieve the same purpose.
You still need parking space. Most bike parkings are too small to meet the needs at around 500 bikes vs the thousands bikes people will bring in. And the around $20/month parking fee isn't helping either.
Seized bikes are usually fixed and then sent to other countries including of all places, North Korea.
I checked the web a little bit on this subject.
In the few places where they do that, the fee for the rental is about the same as the parking fee.:-(
Local governements seem to have "more important things" to spend their citizens' tax money, like building stadiums that would have no use once the World Cup is over or building new rapid transit lines with fares so expensive that people would still ride their bikes or buses anyway.
The idea behind making these bicycles available to anyone for free use is to reduce parking requirements. Reverse commuters and shift workers would reduce some daytime parking requirements at the station.
Most bike parkings are too small to meet the needs at around 500 bikes vs the thousands bikes people will bring in.
It depends where you go. I've seen compact bike parking lots in China that are able to handle a couple of thousand bicycles. It's a question of whether the lot uses attendants or is self-service. The bikes can be double-decked or stacked vertically to save area. A double-decked staggered rack would require about 2'x7' for two bikes. A vertically stacked bike would require about 2'x4' for two bikes. The trick in either case is to prevent contact between adjacent handlbars.
This is not the answer. The bicycle is an efficient and environmentally friendly form of transport. I use a bicycle EVERY DAY of the year and leave it parked at the lightrail station due to the fact that buses are expensive and service will never be enough to satisify demand.
The Netherlands has just as much if not MORE bicycles at train stations than Japan. I seen pictures of train stations with a sea of bicycles and the situation is handled by proper allocation of bicycle racks to satisfy demand. In the Netherlands, they have an ENTIRE BUILDING right by the train station just for bicycle parking!
I used to cycle to the Path station in Journal Square about two years ago. They used to have bicycles all over the station and I complained this was due to the lack of bicycle racks. In my email, I stated the bicycle problem was due to the fact that only one rack existed and it was full of broken cycles and parts all around.
Path responded by removing the junk cluttering the sole bike rack making more space for new cycles. Furthermore, they brought two new racks which resolved the bicycle problem once and for all.
The Hoboken station has dozens of bicycles parked outside the station with very little problem. Yes there are abondoned cycles but the station manager removes them after several months. Lets understand one thing. The sight of bicycles at a train station is not a bad thing but a good thing. It shows an individual who is supporting out transit system while causing the least amount of damage to the environment in the process.
I don't know the figures in Holland, but Tokyo it's thousands of bikes per station. There is simply not enough available parking space.
Of course, each city/ward/township is trying to build more parking space but private land owners won't easily give up their valued commercial space.
If there was parking space for free, close enough to the station and large enough for all the bikes, the problem would be solved, but it will only happen about the same time the SAS opens. :-P
Illeagal parking of bikes is making the already narrow streets even narrower, a nuisance to look at, dangerous for both car drivers and pedestrians and making ADA compliant stations useless for the disabled and blind. Until they have more parking space, which is not likely to happen anytime soon, people should walk or take the bus.
When I said ADA compliant, I meant "Accessible". I don't know if there is a JDA in Japan. Anyway here's an example of the situation.
The yellow line in the middle are the guide blocks for the visually impaired. And imagine being on a wheelchair...
Leading candidates are Dhaka (Bangladesh), Jakarta (Indonesia), Karachi (Pakistan) and Lagos (Nigeria).
I am reasonably certain that none of these cities has anything resembling rapid transit, but which has the biggest population?
Population estimates vary widely. In reference 1, neither the administrative area nor the urban agglomeration always gives a useful estimate. For instance the Los Angeles administrative area does not include Orange County, whereas the New York urban agglomeration includes Philadelphia! Reference 2 is a United Nations publication, and may be a better guide for transit purposes, but the data comes from another UN publication "ESCAP 2001" which presumably explains the basis of the estimates. They apply only to "mega-cities" with populations over 10 million, of which there were 19 in 2000 compared with one (New York) in 1950.
On-line sources of population data:
Ref 1: http://www.world-gazetteer.com/home.htm (click here).
Ref 2: http://www.unescap.org/tctd/pubs/files/review2001_ch2.pdf (click here)
2003 Population of administrative area (million) per ref 1:
Dakha 8.9
Jakarta 8.8
Karachi 10.5
Lagos 8.3
2003 Population of urban agglomeration (million) per ref 1:
Dakha 10.4
Jakarta 17.9
Karachi 10.5
Lagos 9.5
2000 Population (million) per ref 2:
Dakha 12.3
Jakarta 11.0
Karachi 11.8
Lagos 13.4
2015 Forecast Population (million) per ref 2:
Dakha 21.1
Jakarta 17.3
Karachi 19.2
Lagos 23.2
Dhaka
Rickshaws are the dominating mode of public transport, but 60% of commuter trips are made by walking. Trips made by public transport especially buses are very low, only 0.9%. Two-stroke engines (auto-rickshaw) emitting 30 times more pollution than a normal car (see here) have been banned, and replaced by four-stroke engined rickshaws (see here).
Jakarta
Human-powered rickshaws were banned from Jakarta in 1988, and replaced by motorcycle taxis or motorcycle rickshaws. (See here). Nowadays buses are the primary means of public transport, and a "trans-Jakarta busway" of bus lanes opens this year. A basic design for Jakarta subway construction (1995 to 1996) is listed as a project; see here.
Karachi
Population estimates range from 6.5 million (see here) to 14 million (see here), increasing by 300,000 per annum. Public transport consists of buses, mini-buses, pick-ups and motor rickshaws. In 1974 there was to be a feasibility study on the electrification of the Karachi suburban railway and preliminary feasibility study on the projected rapid transit system; see here.
Lagos
According to this source, Lagos has 13 million inhabitants but no public transport. According to the BBC, (see here), Lagos has 10 million inhabitants and an estimated 1000 privately operated buses, called danfos. This year, government-licensed buses were introduced on the islands; see here.
He called it an "interesting" trip, and his vivid description certainly brings things to life!
It's not like here where one of our counties in my area(Pasco County) isn't even built up yet and they're already talking about it on the news as a complete failure in urban planning. It's actually just started to get houses. The 60% commuter trips done by walking is that number probably because it's possible to do so, even though economic conditions play a role.
You're probably right, as they are mostly quite poor and lacking in middle class suburban sprawl.
The 60% commuter trips done by walking is that number probably because it's possible to do so, even though economic conditions play a role.
That's exactly what I think (about Dhaka).
Yes but on the other hand, high population density means traffic congestion, so rapid transit would attract high ridership, if they could afford to build the lines which they apparently cannot!
Why hasn't anyone thought of starting a bicycle transport program. Seriously. In not having a car, the bicycle has become my second legs. I NEVER use the bus as the HBLR has become my choice of transport. But the lightrail is not around the corner, instead of using a van or bus, the bicycle becomes my legs.
One look at China and you see how millions of people are using inexpensive bicycles to liberate themselves from taking motor transport. Althought this may change in the very near future as the auto manufacturers are getting ready to flood the country with cheap cars.
I still can't understand why these poor countries did NOT build a bicycle manufacturer to produce cheap single speed bicycles for the population. Incredible.
Would that be for you, the egg timer capital of the world?
Are you including regular railways not primarily commuter lines? If not, you can add lots of cities to the list. For example, I don't think Mumbai (Bombay) has a rapid transit system built as such, does it?
A good question! My definition was a bit vague, but I don't think Mumbai qualifies. According to Metroplanet (see here):
"Mumbai (formerly Bombay, approx. 10 million inh.) currently has four rail corridors exclusive to the mass transit system (with separate tracks) totalling 149 Km. Trains run from 4:00am to 1:00am with a headway of 3 mins during peak hours and ranging from 5 to 10 mins during the rest of the hours of operation (except late at night, when headway is about 20-30 mins). Further, there are currently regular operations with a headway between 10 and 30 mins on other lines not exclusively for mass transit use (shared with long distance trains) totalling to 154 Km, in addition to the 149 km system. Alongside much of the mass transit tracks, the long distance tracks also carry 'fast' trains which do not stop at all stations."
There is a 2002 map of Mumbai on the Metroplanet site, showing four metro lines and a fifth one under construction. It is true, as quoted above, that some parts of the metro system share tracks with suburban railways. Quite possibly the metro lines used to be part of the suburban system; I will try to find out about this, and whether the metro lines are underground or elevated. Actually I was quite surprised to find subway-less mega-cities in Pakistan and Bangladesh but not in India.
Have you any other suggestions, with populations of 10 million or more?
"Bombay currently has an extensive commuter rail system, but it's in no way a subway."
Another source (see here) says:
"The railway suburban services, which are in fact metropolitan services in view of the frequency and short distances between stations, carry close to six million passengers per day on some 2000 daily EMU services."
The site is worth visiting for the illustrations alone.
So the Mumbai Mass Rapid Transit System (MRTS) serves the purpose of mass transit but runs along suburban rail tracks. In fact it carries more passengers than the New York subway.
The World Gazetteer puts its administrative area at 12.4 million and its urban agglomeration at 17.0 million.
The UNESCAP document puts its population at 18.1 million in 2000, increasing to 26.1 million in 2015.
In this context, I guess, a van with only a roof over the cab, allowing passengers to sit or stand in the cargo area behind.
"Los Angeles County slowly ebbed to its present size, the last major detachment occurring in 1889 with the creation of Orange County. Los Angeles County remains one of the nation's largest counties with 4,084 square miles, an area some 800 square miles larger than the combined area of the states of Delaware and Rhode Island. It has the largest population (9,979,618 million as of January 2003) of any county in the nation."
How much of the 4,084 square miles, which contains 88 cities, should be considered part of a single urban agglomeration? Probably most of its population could be included, plus most of the population of the adjacent counties of Orange, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino. Total urban agglomeration (2000) 16.8 million.
The UNESCAP source lists Los Angeles a mega-city with pop 13.1 million in 2000.
Another city that could have claimed the dubious title is Chongqing (formerly Chungking, the wartime capital of China). In 1997 Chongqing annexed the entire county in which it is situated, and proclaimed itself the biggest city in the world with a population of 30 million. One source (see here) gives it a population of 31 million and a land area of 82,000 square km. It's hard to tell how much of that very large area is an urban agglomeration.
Estimates of the population of Chongqing range from 2.4 million to 31 million, depending on the source, the estimate date, and most importantly how big an area is included. The first of five LRT lines is under construction, and due to open in 2004.
The UNESCAP source does not list Chongqing as a mega-city of 10 million or more.
"This page lists the 100 largest metropolitan areas of the world by population. This is a controversial and difficult to define quantity. These figures include suburban areas immediately surrounding a major city and sometimes multiple major cities which may be close enough together to function essentially as one area (e.g. Washington-Baltimore). "
To give more of an idea of what the list includes, the New York metro area includes Newark and Paterson, and the Los Angeles metro area includes Riverside and Anaheim. These seem reasonable for mass transit planning purposes.
Tokyo tops the list with 33 million. Next come Mexico City, New York, Seoul and Sao Paolo, all with over 20 million.
Using the Wikipedia populations and Metroplanet, the four most populous metro areas without mass transit are still:
#10 Jakarta-Bekasi-Bogor-Depok-Tangerang (pop 16 300 000)
#16 Karachi (pop 13 100 000)
#19 Dhaka (pop 12 050 000)
#26 Lagos (pop 9 600 000)
But their populations are in the reverse order from the UNESCAP source, which gives (for 2000):
#6 Lagos (pop 13 400 000)
#11 Dhaka (pop 12 300 000)
#12 Karachi (pop 11 800 000)
#14 Jakarta (pop 11 000 000)
In both lists Mumbai has over 18 million inhabitants, but it has mass transit provided by surface rail lines.
If Mumbai is excluded it is not clear how to rank the original four candidates, so I hereby award golden rickshaws to all four!
Re: [metroplanet-news] Digest Number 541
metroplanet-news@yahoogroups.com wrote:
"The four cities on the list that have no mass transit are Dhaka (Bangladesh), Jakarta (Indonesia), Karachi (Pakistan) and Lagos (Nigeria). One respondent mentioned Mumbai (India), because I had stipulated the lack of a subway or elevated railway; but in fact Mumbai has a very busy system of surface-level lines, running alongside main-line railways"
By this criterion at least Jakarta also has mass transit, since there's an extensive commuter train network -- although it largely shares the tracks of the long-distance trains.
Here's a pic: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0103/feature4/zoom3.html
They're also moderately serious about building a monorail with the same tech as used in KL, but I'm not holding my breath (you need a gas mask anyway to survive the pollution there).
Cheers, Jani
KL obviously refers to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where a monorail was recently opened.
The pictorial evidence is quite convincing, with people hanging on to the sides and roof of an overhead-electrified train.
That eliminates Jakarta, reducing the mass-transitless mega-cities to three: Dhaka, Lagos and Karachi.
#10 Jakarta 16 300 000 (incl. Bekasi, Bogor, Depok, Tangerang)
#16 Karachi 13 100 000
#19 Dhaka 12 050 000
#26 Lagos 9 600 000
If Jakarta, like Mumbai, is eliminated on account of its suburban trains, that still leaves Karachi, Dhaka and Lagos in the lead.
Another Metroplanet poster, Alex Seefelt, says:
"Lagos, Nigeria had plans for a metroline since the 80s. The line would run most on surface. Dakar, Bangladesh had initial plans for a Russian-made metro-project. Due to frequent floodings they look for something like monorail now. Lahore and Karachi have plans for LRT-systems, too. In fact, these cities belong to the poorest countries of the world. Therefore Er-Riad in Saudi-Arabia (3 Million inhabitants) is perhaps the biggest city in the 'rich' world without any mass-transit on rail. [I think he means Ar-Riyad or Riyadh, pop metro area = 5 150 000.] And though cities like Calcutta and Chongqing do have LRT systems (or at least under construction), they really dont meet the expectations for a real good mass-transit-system."
However I would add that some of these planned lines have been planned for many years, and I don' t think they should count until they are actually built and in service.
The largest cities in the USA without subways or els are:
1) Houston, TX: 2,009,834
2) Phoenix, AZ: 1,371,960
3) San Diego, CA: 1,259,532
4) Dallas, TX: 1,211,467
5) San Antonio, TX: 1,194,222
6) San Jose, CA: 900,443
7) Indianapolis, IN: 793,645
8) Jacksonville, FL: 762,461
9) Columbus, OH: 725,228
10) Austin, TX: 671,873
Source: 2002 estimates based on 2000 census.
However, the densest cities in the USA with a population of over 100,000 without a subway or el are:
1) Paterson, NJ: population 140,891; pop/sq mile 16,691
(Jersey City, NJ: 228,537; 15,360 - I've omitted this because of PATH)
2) Inglewood, CA: 109,602; 11,955
3) El Monte, CA: 106,209; 11,179
4) Santa Ana, CA: 293,742; 10,845
5) Yonkers, NY: 188,082; 10,402
6) Hialeah, FL: 188,004; 9,770
7) Elizabeth, NJ: 110,002; 8,928
8) Bridgeport, CT: 141,686; 8,853
9) Providence, RI: 160,728; 8,706
10) Buffalo, NY: 328,123; 8,079
Source: 1990 census.
If these are a bit small for you, the densest cities in the USA with a population of over 400,000 without a subway or el are:
1) Milwaukee, WI: 628,088; 6,538
2) Seattle, WA: 516,259; 6,154
3) San Jose, CA: 782,248; 4,568
4) Portland, OR: 437,319; 3,508
5) San Diego, CA: 1,110,549; 3,428
6) Columbus, OH: 632,910; 3,315
7) Denver, CO: 467,610; 3,051
8) Houston, TX: 1,630,553; 3,020
9) Dallas, TX: 1,006,877; 2,941
10) San Antonio, TX: 935,933; 2,810
Source: 1990 census.
So should there be a subway in Paterson, NJ, or where-ever?
Ideally a mass transit system should not stop at the administrative boundaries. Fortunately London Transport didn't stop at the London County Council boundary before London was expanded to include the county of Middlesex and parts of Essex and Surrey. Another good example is the San Francisco Bay Area, which includes Oakland and San Jose. In fact many American cities have Metropolitan Transit Authorities covering entire metropolitan areas and in some cases even crossing state lines.
Yuri Popov of Chicago University has a list (see here) of the most populous metro areas in the USA, indicating which do not have any form of rail transit. Yuri's list includes:
#8 Detroit 5.5 million
#10 Houston 4.7 million
#14 Phoenix 3.3 million
#15 Minneapolis - St Paul 3.0 million
#20 San Juan, Puerto Rico 2.5 million
#21 Tampa - St Petersburg 2.4 million
#24 Cincinnati 2.0 million
These areas do not have any form of rail transit yet (excluding various people-movers, inclines and historic trolleys).
Yuri has taken metropolitan areas rather than cities, so your list is not directly comparable to Yuri's, but they have much in common, including Houston and Phoenix being ranked at or near the top.
A good many American cities (or metro areas) either have or are planning light rail systems. I think they somewhat resemble the Croydon Tram Link in south London.
Detroit tops Yuri's list but is notably absent from yours. One would hardly expect Motown to enthuse about mass transit, but Detroit does have an elevated one-way circlular "People Mover" which only serves the downtown area.
Houston has traditionally been opposed to light rail, but now there is a 7.5 mile "start-up" line, and in a recent referendum 51% voted to extend the LRT. Phoenix also held a referendum in which the voters approved light rail. Dallas has the Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART), a with three light rail lines, one of which goes to Fort Worth. San Diego has the "San Diego Trolley" which is called a light rail and runs partly on reserved tracks.
Having said all this, I don't really think a light rail system can reasonably be called "mass transit", as they are more like streetcars, and ridership is not comparable to that of a subway or el.
I was watching a JFK-retrospective show on TV the other day, and in a present-day shot of Dealey Plaza a DART train was visible going over the infamous Triple Underpass.
I know the administrative areas aren't ideal, but they're better than being told that Philadelphia is part of NYC.
Ideally a mass transit system should not stop at the administrative boundaries. Fortunately London Transport didn't stop at the London County Council boundary before London was expanded to include the county of Middlesex and parts of Essex and Surrey.
Now there's a good idea. Move all of Essex and Surrey into London.
Detroit tops Yuri's list but is notably absent from yours. One would hardly expect Motown to enthuse about mass transit, but Detroit does have an elevated one-way circlular "People Mover" which only serves the downtown area.
Which I counted as a particularly crappy El, but an El nonetheless.
Having said all this, I don't really think a light rail system can reasonably be called "mass transit", as they are more like streetcars, and ridership is not comparable to that of a subway or el.
Exactly.
Similarly Inglewood, El Monte and Santa Ana belong to the Los Angeles metropolitan area. Inglewood and El Monte could be served by a Los Angeles County MTA light rail. Santa Ana will be served by the proposed CenterLine light rail of the Orange County Transit Authority. Unfortunately Orange County is a separate jurisdiction from L.A. County, meaning separate lines, and neer the twain shall meet.
You are right to focus on population density, which must be a major factor in mass transit ridership. The trouble with the Los Angeles metro area is that its overall density is too low for mass transit, so the plans are for light rail. IMO most places in the USA that have enough population and enough density to warrant mass transit (subway, surface or elevated) already have it.
Yes, for transit to be successful elsewhere it has to be coupled with serious urban planning that fosters high-density development.
Mark
Yes and there are not many places where those plans are being made; so many people accept suburban sprawl as inevitable.
Not really. That's like saying that Penn station is useful for mass transit within Manhattan.
So I would argue that Paterson NJ is best considered as part of the New York metropolitan area. Likewise Elizabeth NJ.
Looks like Jersey got screwed when it comes to Subways.
Santa Ana will be served by the proposed CenterLine light rail of the Orange County Transit Authority. Unfortunately Orange County is a separate jurisdiction from L.A. County, meaning separate lines, and neer the twain shall meet.
Now that is just jackassedly stupid.
IMO most places in the USA that have enough population and enough density to warrant mass transit (subway, surface or elevated) already have it.
Agreed, viz NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston etc... Also, Cleveland, OH, seems to have transit but not particularly need it as far as the numbers go.
This seems to be where Yuri Popov gets his populations and rankings. The Wikipedia data applies to cities of the world, but for the USA I think they extrapolate the above census data. All three sources give results that seem relevant to mass transit.
There is a category of metro areas that, although not densely populated enough to warrant an extensive heavy rail network, are perhaps better suited to light rail. This category surely includes Los Angeles which, many years ago when its population was much smaller, had the Pacific Electric, a vast network of "interurban" lines covering most of the area that is now metro Los Angeles including the cities that you mentioned, Inglewood, El Monte and Santa Ana. If these lines still existed they would surely be called "light rail". For an early map of the Pacific Electric Railway see here and here, and for a list of links see here.
Looks like an impressive system. Why the hell did they close it?
So the auto, oil, and rubber industries could make more money. Greed, pure and simple.
Mark
Of course, all the while the fun of the open road was used to sell this new vision to the public, but really, that's not what really happened. That 409 and that T-bird aren't much fun in a traffic jam.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
A good question, and one that aroused my curiosity. I will try to answer it based on what I have read recently.
Pacific Electric was a network of trolleys made up of one, two or three car trains running on rails. Some lines ran along streets but some ran on reserved tracks. Some lines were standard gauge (4' 8.5") but others were narrow gauge (3' 6"). Some lines were elevated and there was a short stretch in tunnel, but most were at surface level. Some lines were single track, most were two-track, and some parts of the system had four tracks (local and express). It has been described as both urban and interurban. Oh yes, and it also carried freight!
Among the best web sites are http://www.erha.org/index.htm and http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/pery.htm. There is a map of the system at http://www.erha.org/pesystem.htm.
And Pacific Electric was not the only system to be dismantled by National City Lines.
According to http://hometown.aol.com/chirailtwo/nclines.html "the biggest controversy involved those transit systems which were still running streetcars when acquired by NCL. NCL had ties with General Motors, Firestone, Standard Oil, and Phillips Petroleum. Companies which naturally had an interest in supplying buses, tires, and fuel. So after acquiring those streetcar systems, NCL was quick to convert them to buses. In 1949, these various companies were convicted in federal court of collusion and anti-competitive practices, and were fined $5000 each. Because this conspiracy had already netted these companies millions in profits, this was a case where crime did pay. This conversion to buses has sometimes been referred to as bustitution", and there is a list of some 60 cities whose transit systems were owned by NCL, many of which were "bustituted".
All of this was possible because under the New Deal, in a move intended to spur rural electrification, electric utilities had to sell off businesses not supplying electricity, and that included transit systems.
Santa Fe de Bogota, Colombia, pop 8 000 000, ranked #28.
In October 2000, Mass Transit magazine reported that the long awaited Bogota metro project has been cancelled in favour of expressway expansion. But ...
The TransMilenio Bus Rapid Transit system of Bogota is one of the world's largest BRT systems, second only to Curitiba, Brazil (pop 3 050 000, ranked #109), which started the trend some 40 years ago and now transports about 1.3 million passengers daily.
For Bogota see here.
For Curitiba see here.
And, also the first Bluebirds (R33WF singles) were making their debut.
I was out of school too!
"Ich bin ein Frankfurter"
: )
Isn't a Berliner some sort of a donut. I think they call them "Bismarcks" out here.
Elias
It's also called "Kreppel" in Germany
Do you fill them with jelly?
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
1. Joe DiMaggio hired a hit man (maybe Oswald) to rub out Kennedy because he felt that the sexual President has compromised and used Marilyn Monroe.
2. Nikita Khruschev, the portly Soviet leader who once said "our children will one day live under Communism", hired a double look-alike to kill JFK because the President made him look like a chump when he forced him to back down during the Cuban Missile Crisis. According to this off the wall theory, Oswald was a patsy.
3. Perhaps the most ridiculous conspiracy of all was that JFK ordered his own death. Knowing he was a very sick man, he engineered his own hit in order to go down in the history books as a young martyred hero who would forever be lionized by the American people.
Of course, LBJ and even Nixon have been catalogued as possible agitators in Kennedy's death.
If you ask me all these conspiracy theories are worth nothing more than a bag of dog dung.
#3 West End Jeff
Gasbag test ... place gasbag on one end of a crowd. Set up cameras and a podium at the other end. Count injuries. :)
So ... wanna come to Smallbany, go visit the politicos and conduct that gasbag test, or are ya headed to Sacramento? :)
Fred, I suggest you go over your NYS geography!!! Chappaqua is nowhere near Albany!!!
#3 West End Jeff
40 years ago was November 22, 1969. I don't need social studies to tell me how to subtract. Sheesh.
You failed math.
Forty years from 1963 is 2003.
Simple subtraction.
Unless, of course, you've somehow mangaged to post from 2009, which is 6 years in the future.
For me, that would be on a WMATA Rohr train at Braddock Road station last April. This gentleman boarding the car I was riding who looked in his upper 20's age-wise was trying to be funny for his friends, and stood in the doorway of the train. While the guy's standing there, the T/O comes on the PA: "Sir, don't stand in my doorway like that!"
Sure, it's not a side-splitter, but it was interesting to hear what I guess you could call an "out of character" announcement that struck me as funny.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
heard over a F-train earlier this month.
"This is a Manhattan bound F train, the next stop is 34st, which is in Manahttan......stand clear from da closing door"
heard over a F-train earlier this month.
"This is a Manhattan bound F train, the next stop is 34st, which is in Manahttan...(pause)...stand clear from da closing door"
Then this dude on the 1 train was like:
"This is 116St-Columbia University.This is a bronx bound 1 train,the next stop is 125St-Harlem USA.Stand clear of the closing doors please"
VC Madman
Not PAs, but overheard on the radio net of a transit system which will remain nameless:
"There's some complete idiot at the platform telephone..."
Control speaking to field staff after some jackass jumped into the track bed: "Tell him we charge extra for bodybags."
Michael
Washington, DC
Heard on the radio scanner. On Amtrak, leaving Rockville MD for Washington.
Conductor: OK #30, let's leave Cumberland
Engineer: that's interesting. Leaving Cumberland for the 2nd time today."
Michael
Washington, DC
How could I ever forget that one, but it only applies where there is a gap, most notably Waterloo on the Bakerloo line.
"This is a District Line train taking the scenic route to Wimbledon. This train will call at all stations except Cannon Street and West Brompton, because it's a Sunday, but no-one would have wanted to get off there anyway."
I like it when they just go "YELP!!"
"This is Brooklyn-Boun' F train. 42 Street Neeeeeeeexxt. Stan' clear of closing door."
On Metro-North going to Branford earlier during the summer, when leaving Grand Central, the Conductor(also Oriental) announced over the PA that to "be prepared to detrain when arriving at your station. There is no wake-up calls on this train." Lou from Brooklyn can confirm on this one.
Regards,
Jimmy
Ick. I don't even want to know where that train, eh drain, is headed.
Seriously though, there used to be this really cool conductor on the L train some years back. He had a great accent. I would always like when I got his train.
"This is GROHHHHMM AHHHHHHHV-en-you, next stop LAHHHHHHHHRRRR-a-merrrr Street, Stahhhhnnnd clear-of-the closing doors. He spoke almost in song. It was so cool. I wonder if he's even still working there. He was a middle-aged to older African American guy with a goatee (yeah that narrows it down). Well, even if he was, the R143's wouldn't lend to the "old fashioned" voice announcements anymore....every trip now sounds the same....sigh.
"Stand clear of the closing doors"
*the doors attempt to close*
"PLEASE stand clear of the closing doors"
*the doors attempt to close again*
"If you don't get out of the doorway, the doors won't close*
*the doors attempt to close once again*
"THIS TRAIN IS NOT GOING TO MOVE ANYWHERE UNLESS YOU STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS"
*the doors shut, open, shut, and train starts moving*
"Next stop, yourrr stop; 42nd Street. Your step, watch it. Your day, enjoy it."
It sure brought out smiles and giggles from a lot of the passengers.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we are currently experiencing delays due to customers in the front of the train holding the doors."
" LADIES AND GENTLEMEN DUE TO WORK THIS WEEKEND THIS E TRAIN WILL BE MAKING ALL LOCAL STOPS
ALL LOCAL STOPS
ALL LOCAL STOPS
ALL LOCAL STOPS
ALL LOCAL STOPS
SHE WAS LIKE A BROKEN RECORD!!!!
This a 7 Express, Express-a trrain to Main-a Strreet Flshing. Da next-a stop is Sixty-Firrst-a Strreet Wood-a-side. Stand clear of dee CL-sing doors pleez!
He sounds like the Japanese general in the movie Bridge on the River Kwai.
That must have sounded weird for the other cars on that train.
That must have sounded weird for the people in the other cars on that train.
This is Atlantic Avenue. Transfer to the 2, 3, 4 and 5 trains, the M, N, R, W trains and the
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG Island Railroad
-Long Pause-
Stant clear of the closing doors please.
-Then, b/c its an express, there is no DING-DONG with the muscial pitches of E and C.-
His announcement at Canal St...
This is CanALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Street...Transfers available to the J! M! Z! The W TRAIN! The number SIX! And the SHUTTLE BUS! To the Grand Streeee...stay...(voice trails off)
I've heard a lot of mistakes in these announcement, but this was the funniest.
"Grand Central-42nd Street. This is the Pels train...change here for the Woods"
Do the Newark natives call Newark NARK?
"Aug. 28, 1991: Five people are killed and more than 200 injured when a southbound No. 4 train derails going over a switch just north of Union Square. Service on the Lexington Avenue IRT, was disrupted for six days as transit workers toiled around the clock to clean up the wreckage. The motorman, Robert Ray, who was drunk and going more than 40 mph where the speed limit was 10 mph, is later convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 15 years in prison. It was the worst subway accident in 63 years."
That means that Robert Ray will be released sometime in 2006. I wondered how old his he right now and what other New Yorker will say about this?
What do you guy think?
They should give him his old job back, else he might sue and win...
Or maybe they could have him painting the cross ties on the express track during rush hour.
Elias
Hell, I'd be scared for my life to think of what others might do to me.
#3 West End Jeff
Why? What word were you thinking of?
: ) Elias
At least.
She might have been thrown off of a train. But if she fell or otherwise detrained there, it ought to be apparent on examination, to determine if she was struck by the structure, or only by the trains.
Elais
West End:
pre Chrystie St T & TT
post Chrystie St until 2002 B
2002 - current W
Culver:
pre Chrystie St D
post Chrystie St F
Brighton:
pre Chrystie St Q QB & QT
post Chrystie St until 2002: D always, plus any of follwwing, depending on the year - Q, QB, QJ, M
2002 - current: Q (round and diamond)
Note: this is a very summarized list. There may have been other variations. Pre Chrystie means before Nov 26, 1967; post Chrystie means beginning Nov 26, 1967.
For BMT nostalgia types:
N = Sea Beach Express
T = West End Express
TT= West End Local (or Short Line)
Q= Brighton Express via Bridge
QB = Brighton Local via Bridge
QT = Brighton Local via Tunnel
For REAL BMT Nostalgia types:
1 = Brighton Line
1a. Brighton Local via Tunnel
1b. Brighton Local via Bridge
1c. Brighton Express (via Bridge)
3 = West End Line
3a. West End Express
3b. West End Local (via Tunnel thru Nassau Loop returning via
Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn)
4 = Sea Beach Line
Note that the primary numbers appeared on some of the BMT equigment (D-Types), but the 1a, 1b, 1c designations appeared only on the Service Guides.
As my roots are in Manhattan and I married a Bronx girl, I am mostly an IRT person!
As to the first, well I suppose that's ok; the second, congratulations. The third one you have my condolances.
To each his own. But you're not at all bad since the Brighton is your second favorite. We also share in common a love for the Southern Division with the exception of the 4th Av. Local.
Actually the Bluebirds had a side route sign... Curiously the BMT did not include the route numbers, but only used the route names on that sign...
#3 West End Jeff
The West End trains ran on the West End Line,
The Brighton trains ran on the Brighton Line,
The Sea Beach train ran on the Sea Beach Line,
and the Culver train ran on the Culver Line.! : )
You see, if you look at the 1964 map, none of the destinations were associated with route letters. Some early BMT equipment did not have any Numbers or Letters that could be displayed. You looked at the roll sign in the car window, and if it said "West End" then it was a West End Train.
Now *after* the IND letters had ben long established and the city stared buying new equipment for the BMT, route letters began to replace the Rout Numbers (That many people never even knew about since not all trains were able to carry numbers) and this it the earliest that I remember:
(Q) (QB) (QT) on the Brighton Line
(T) (TT) on the West End Line
(N) on the Sea Beach
(D) on the Culver, and
(RR) on Fourth Avenue.
THAT IS THE WAY THAT GOD INTENDED TO TO BE YOU INFIDELS!
: ) Elias
The best answer of all. :)
1 - Brighton
2 - 4th Ave.
3 - West End
4 - Sea Beach
5 - Culver
6 - 5th Ave. el
7 - Franklin Ave.
8 - Astoria
9 - Flushing
10 - Myrtle/Chambers
11 - Myrtle/Park Row, later Jay St.
12 - Lexington Ave. el
13 - Fulton St. el
14 - Broadway Brooklyn
15 - Jamaica
16 - Canarsie
Is this before the 60th Street Tunnel? or was it a 2 train going the other way?
Elias
8 Astoria and 9 Flushing were IRT sized BMT shuttles from QBP. The 2 train terminated at QBP.
What you probably saw on the 4th Ave. local were R-1s borrowed from the IND.
Oh, so that's the source of that rumor. I never heard that from any reliable primary source. Since the Multis were ordered to use in that service, you would have expected that they would have had 17 on the signs. But they used 13 instead.
A few points are obvious: 1-7 were Southern Division, 8 and 9 Queens Division, 10-16 Eastern Division.
Beyond that you need to take an educated guess, but there is some logical consistency. Brighton is obvious for "1" because the Brighton Line was "bread-and-butter line" of the Southern Division. Fourth Avenue trunk may have been "2" because it was the other trunk south of DeKalb. 3-West End, and 4-Sea Beach reflect the order of their peeling off the Fourth Avenue Line, 5-Culver, 6-Fifth Avenue, and 7-Franklin were the Southern Division's elevated lines.
Eastern is a little tougher. Why the first number (10) for Myrtle-Chambers when Fulton was the Eastern Division's premiere line? Past that, you have the three Brooklyn Bridge routes, from west to east, 11-Myrtle, 12-Lexington, 13-Fulton. Then the two other Willy B lines, 14-Canarsie (originally) and 15-Jamaica. 16-Canarsie is last because it was the last to be completed, after the other lines were already numbered.
Everything was logical on the IRT until they mucked up the works with the #9.
The West Side was 1,2,3, the East Side was 4,5,6. Even then, the Bronx branches went from west to east (well, the 3 is technically west of the 2, but that's a not as important branch and doesn't go to the Bronx). 7 and 8 went to Queens, and the leftover 9 was the Dyre Shuttle.
1-2 express
3 local
4-5 express
6 local
There was also a 1 local before they made all 1s local
When the City was going to buy the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s, the Board of Transporation made up a set of numbers--the same ones used now, except that 8 was Astoria (same as the BMT) and I think 9 was only usable for Dyre Avenue when it was still a shuttle. I can't recall if 9 was on the sign curtains or not.
Aside from the test use of the R-1s on the Sea Beach in the early 1930s, R-1s were used on the Fourth Avenue in the early 1950s, signed only on the front as "2," with "4th Avenue" or "4th Ave." below.
In the mid-1950s, before the DeKalb rearrangement (delays to get into the station were moved from Brooklyn-bound to Manhattan-bound), I used to ride the 4th Avenue Special (with Standards) most mornings to go to school in Yorkville. I'd get on at 69th Street (Bay Ridge Avenue), and the stops would be 59th, Pacific, Chambers, then on the IRT from Brooklyn Bridge, stopping at 14th, Grand Central, and 86th. Seven stops. Can't do that any more!
The morning Brighton Special, BTW, was the only Brighton Express (#1) that skipped DeKalb. (There was no connection to skip southbound in the evening.) During the summer the #7 Brighton-Franklin (Franklin-Nassau) service also skipped DeKalb, but that service came from Fourth Avenue. I never heard of D-types being used on any Franklin Express service.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
How they figured out the Southern Division letters make no sense to me. OK, they made Sea Beach the first available letter "N" though I can't see any way N could possibly be related to the route. But for the next available "Q" they shift to the Brighton Line, then shift back to the 4th Avenue Line for "R" and "T".
The only sensible letter they've ever used on the Southern Division is "W" for West End, and that comes to an end in a few months.
BTW, it's a persistant myth, but "P" wsa not used because of the 1960s concern with the implied mild scatology, especially since a local would have been "PP." By the time letters came in, Culver was already a 24/7 shuttle, with no plans that would lead anywhere except to its demise.
RG - Brighton via Bridge*
WW - Brighton via Tunnel (to Coney Island or 57th Street)**
RR - Brighton via Tunnel (most other destinations)**
RR - Shuttles, like Franklin
GG - Fourth Avenue Local
GW - West End Express
YW - West End Nassau (a good eye test)
RW - Sea Beach Express (the color of Fred's eyes?) - ;-)
GY - Culver-Nassau***
GG - Brighton-Franklin to/from Coney Island
* This was the core color combination for the prime Brighton service. It is the color combination that Luciano's train was supposed to be carrying (pre-deKalb, obviously). Overnight Brighton Locals that went over the Bridge carried these markers, as well as Brighton Expresses.
** Almost always Brighton Locals, via tunnel. RR meant that the local wasn't going to its "standard" destinations, 57th Street or Coney Island. So mostly northbound Brighton Local tunnel trains carried RR (to Forest Hills or Astoria) and southbound carried WW (to Coney Island). Exception: WG from northern destination to Whitehall, not be confused with GW for West End Express.
*** I always liked that green-yellow combination. It thought it was pretty and it meant I was going to have a good rush ride over the Manhattan Bridge, Nassau Street, return via tunnel and take the special bypass track at deKalb. Also the colors of the Military Police Corps.
I say "theoretical" because not long after Chyrstie was opened service levels were reduced to below what had existed before.
I think two green lights was Brighton. My parents knew, so I did not have to know.
Not only did Brooklyn lose the Dodgers, but the Sea Beach lost the Triplexes to boot.
Thus, immediately pre-Chrystie, the services I witnessed during rush-hours, with their signage, were:
M/Nassau St. Exp. (detailed above) (Brightliners)
N/Broadway Exp. (Sea Beach) (Brightliners)
Q/Broadway Exp. (Brighton Express) (Brightliners)
QT/Local via tunnel (Brighton Local) (R27/30s, rare Brightliner)
RR/Broadway Local (4th Av. local) (R27/30s)
T/Broadway Express (West End) (Brightliners)
TT/Nassau St. Local (West End) (Brightliners)
There was also the QB local via bridge, which did not run during rush-hours. Notice there was four services during rush-hour running on the local track through Dekalb: M, QT, RR, and TT.
That requires some clarification for modern SubTalkers. "M" was always intended to be the Myrtle service to Nassau Street, but pre-Chrystie it was used as a letter of convenience on both the Brighton and 4th Avenue "Bankers Specials" that existed since BMT days.
Once Chrystie Street opened the Myrtle-Chambers became the M and didn't run onto the Southern Division until later on, when it became the weekday Brighton Local for a while, after the QJ was broken up.
Getting back to a previous thread concerning how the Triplexes were employed on the Brighton line, I saw a message of yours which seemed to conflict with what I had thought previously....Weren't the Triplexes, from their introduction, employed weekdays from around 6:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M. as Broadway Brighton Expresses? You showed photographic proof (proff) of their service around 1960 as the Saturday Brighton-Franklin local. Also, from Greller's subway cars of the BMT, we know that they were employed as Brighton locals on Sundays and holidays, with 6-car Standards being employed as Brighton-Franklin expresses on Sundays and holidays (July 4, 1953 photos in that book and one of a 3-car standard in that service in 1941 in what looks like a winter month). Would you happen to know what happened during the evening (theater hours) and late nights, which equipment, before the arrival of the R27/30s, supplied the Brighton local service (Triplexes or Standards)?
Finally, another point of interest....from Sansone's book, concerning the use of the C types (rebuilds of gate cars) on the Franklin Av. line. The C types, when new, were employed on the Franklin Av. line. This would have been around 1924-5. The Franklin is often looked at as having had "orphan" equipment. Actually, the new C types, the Zephyr, the Green Hornet, the R34s, even a Bluebird, all worked the Franklin when new. "Orphan" equipment, yes, but often the newest and most modern!
I saw a.m. rush Fourth Avenue Expresses that were signed that way. I have no idea what they did in the p.m.
Getting back to a previous thread concerning how the Triplexes were employed on the Brighton line, I saw a message of yours which seemed to conflict with what I had thought previously....Weren't the Triplexes, from their introduction, employed weekdays from around 6:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M. as Broadway Brighton Expresses?
I have to give you an answer pre- and post-late 1956, which is when I began riding and noting equipment and such regularly.
IIRC. Larry,RedbirdR33 had some detailed information on the usage of Triplexes, derived, I think, from ERA Bulletins. Also IIRC, the story was that the Triplexes initially ran on the Sea Beach where they were the equipment of the Sea Beach for a quarter-century, and were also assigned to the Brighton LOCAL. About 1952-53, the Brighton Locals and Expresses flipped equipment, and then Triplexes were used on the express and almost never the local.
Now, to 1957, which I recall personally. Triplexes were NEVER used on the Manhattan local, except under unusual circumstances, the primary one being as filler trains after Dodgers games. They were later used on the Saturday Brighton-Franklin, but in that case they used the Brighton Express equipment, while the expresses used the local equipment Saturdays only, which is to say: R27s. By 1962 they occasionally made a Brighton-Nassau.
Finally, another point of interest....from Sansone's book, concerning the use of the C types (rebuilds of gate cars) on the Franklin Av. line. The C types, when new, were employed on the Franklin Av. line. This would have been around 1924-5. The Franklin is often looked at as having had "orphan" equipment. Actually, the new C types, the Zephyr, the Green Hornet, the R34s, even a Bluebird, all worked the Franklin when new. "Orphan" equipment, yes, but often the newest and most modern!
Quite true. The shuttle got the orphans, the oddballs, the try-outs. I believe the Bluebird they got was 8000, which never had service couplers, so was perfect (though short) for some Franklin runs.
Paul: I rode the pm 4 Avenue-Nassau St service several times prior to the opening the Chrystie Street Connection. Once I was even able to ride a Standard in that service. Your observation of the am 4 Avenue-Nassau Exp confirms something that I always suspected.
When R-Types where used on the 4 Avenue-Nassau they were signed as follows.
AM Rush: M-Nassau St on the front and M-Nassau Express on the side signs.
PM Rush: M-Nassau St on the front and S-Special on the side signs.
The reason that the pm trains carried the S-Special signs was to differentiate them from the Brighton-Nassau trains which carried M-Nassau Street Express signs in both the am and pm rush.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Steve: During the years before Chrystie Street the Brighton-Nassau trains ran as follows;
AM rush lv Brighton Beach to Chambers via tunnel running exp from Kings Hwy to Prospect Park, the deadhead via MB (south side) to Dekalb Av then run as exp to Brighton Beach.
PM rush deadhead Brighton Beach to Chambers St via bridge then all stops to Prospect Park via tunnel, exp to Kings Hwy then all stops to Coney Island arriving there on track 1 or A (Sea Beach platform).
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, I distinctly remember the Brightliners assigned to the M service were signed up with Coney Island (not Brighton Beach) as their south terminal. This was Sept. '65 to Nov. '67. I boarded at Kings Highway or Av. U so I did not actually see them leave Coney Island, but it does make sense that Coney Island was the terminal since the local stops of Gravesend Neck Rd. and Av. U. were served (why make the double switch from exp. track to local track north of Brighton Beach only to return to exp. track south of Kings Highway?).
--Harry
--Harry
Harry: Since you lived on the Brighton Line you recollection is probably better than mine.
The am rush southbound service from Dekalb Avenue to Brighton Beach was only for the purpose of laying these trains up on the spare tracks at Brighton Beach. I believe that is why they ran express.
The southbound service in the evening did run to Coney Island as you stated with the trains switching to the local tracks at Kings Highway in order to avoid the traffic jam at Brighton Beach.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Steve: Prior to Chrystie Street it was possible to ride over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge provided that you rode to Manhattan in the am and from Manhattan in the evening. The 4 Avenue-Nassau trains provided the only passengers service accross south side of the bridge while the Brighton-Nassau trains deadheaded over it.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
AFAIK TT trains (or by the time they were known as TT trains, anyway) did not use the bridge. They ran via tunnel in both directions to Chambers St., then ran light to ENY Yard. Remember when I told you about that TT train I spotted in ENY Yard in July of 1967 from the Canarsie platform at Broadway Junction? Then reality set in when a train of BMT standards pulled in. Eeeeewwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
It's possible that West End Short Line trains, as the TT was formerly known as, may have looped back to Brooklyn via bridge.
That coincides with the discontinuation of Culver thru service.
People are confusing the 4th Ave.-Nassau service from 95th St. with the West End-Nassau. Today, ther M is often called "4th Ave. local", but back then, "4th Ave." referred to the continuation of the trunk to 95th, as opposed to West End, Sea Beach, Culver or Brighton branches
So that means there were 4 Nassau St services during rush hours prior to 1959 (Brighton special, 95th St special, West End short line, Culver express). I know ridership patterns have shifted dramatically in favor of midtown Manhattan over the past 44 years, but did service demands justify all of this service? I would think that the 4th Ave Banker's special would have been highly redundant when the Culver line still ran thru service via Nassau St.
The Culver was always the Southern division's "afterthought" line. From 1919 to 1940 it never had any subway service at all, being the southern leg of the 5th Ave el.
I still to this day do not understand why it was built. The Sea Beach and West End made it redunant. Only the 1954 IND connection gave it any real value.
Between 1931 and 1940 it had both L and subway service.
That may well be. West End is a very busy line--it was a big mistake to end the Short Line service after Chrystie Street. But that doesn't mean that Culver usage was insignificant or redundant.
We also have history at work, in that (as I said) Culver was the core service on the 5th. Putting West End in the subway was probably a more pressing consideration when the 4th Avenue Line opened. Culver was more than adequately served by the 5th (and a lot of people changed at 9th Avenue for subway service) until the BofT changed the balance by eliminatingthe 5th Avenue L.
Also you beg the question somewhat by saying "the nearby West End." The West End is not all that nearby for walking purposes for most of its route. If Culver were eliminated you would have a huge gap between the Brighton and the West End/Sea Beach.
The really big issue (if there is one) is that the TA probably would have eliminated either the Sea Beach or the West End, which are more nearly redundant than Culver, except that the West End is too busy and the Sea Beach is an off-street right-of-way.
My question was more to why the BRT spent the money to convert both West End and Culver routes to elevateds. It looks like the BRT was competing against itself in this part of Brooklyn.
There are several answers to that question.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that, in a business sense, the BRT would have been better off with one or the other (West End or Culver). Let's assume further that the Culver would have been the odd man out.
What would the BRT do with the Culver?
The two main choices would be to either eliminate the Culver surface operation or continue to run el trains on the surface.
If they eliminated the service they would have forfeited the franchise, leaving open the possibility that a competitor would pick it up. The BRT was very sensitive to these issues--it was one reason they continued to operate the West End surface line even after the L was built.
Public pressure would likely have prevented them from continuing the surface operation anyway, but if it could have, it would not have been able to open up the surface trackage for added summer service on the trolley lines. You had services like Nostrand-Culver and Tompkins-Culver which took advantage of this.
First, remember that there were only three to five Brighton and/or 4th Avenue specials. The 4th Avenue specials gave riders south of 36th Street and on the Sea Beach a break, rather than dumping them onto Culvers.
The BMT is full of past services which do that, especially concerning summertime service to Coney Island. In some ways the BMT was run like a commuter railroad.
You have mistaken West End Short Line rush hour service with West End Express midday service. The loop was still used during rush hours.
West End Short Line operated via tunnel both ways all day, ending at Chambers Street, and replacing the midday West End Express.
However, four a.m. West End Locals ran light to D.O. yard and returned in the evening. Two a.m.'s continued to leave Chambers Street and return to Brooklyn via the H tracks, but they ran light.
Brighton and Fourth Avenue specials continued to run via bridge-nassau-tunnel in the a.m., and tunnel-nassau-bridge in the p.m. in that timetable.
Wayne: The TT was the third of the Southern Division Nassau Street Services. It ran between Chambers Street and 9 Avenue or Bay Parkway during the rush hours via the tunnel in both directions. From the mid-sixties onward about three trains laid up midday at East New York Yard but they ran light between there and Chambers Street. They would only have operated over the bridge due to a service disruption or if they were deadheading.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Actually, that's correct. West End Short Line service predated the Nassau Street Loop. The TA, in its wisdom, thought that the West End get by with a single rush hour service. They finally effectively admitted their error.
Chris: That's correct.
There was the "T" Broadway-West End Express which basically ran during an extended rush hour from 6am to 10am and 4pm to 8pm with three basic service services
1) Astoria - Coney Island
2) Astoria - Bay Parkway
3) Queensboro Plaza - Coney Island
All three ran express between 57 Street-7 Avenue in Manhattan and 36 Street-4 Avenue in Brookyln and they bypassed Dekalb Avenue for most of the rush.
There were also some trains running between Astoria and Canal Street (tunnel). This was for the purpose of laying them up midday at the lower level of the City Hall Station. These trains carried express signs but made local stops.
The second major operation was the "TT West End Local" between Chambers Street and Bay Parkway during rush hours and Coney Island middays. There also was service between Chambers Street and 9 Avenue during the rush. Some of these were West End trains in both directions but others were through-routed to and from the 4 Avenue-Nassau Street service.
There was a third operation of sorts that I found most interesting.
Overnight several train sets would lay up at City Hall lower level as would done midday but now these trains would come from Coney Island after the evening rush and return to Coney Island before the start of the am rush.
These trains ran between Canal Street (tunnel) and Coney Island and were signed up as "TT West End Local" but they ran express on 4 Avenue between Pacific Street and 36 Street.
Hours of operation are as follows:
Lv Canal Street: M-F 5:35 and 5:45 am, Sat 5:52-6:26am
Lv Coney Island: M-F 7:15-7:35 pm, Sat 7:14-7:50pm
The reason that I liked this service was that on a Friday evening in the summer it was not uncommon to meet up with several other railfans at Coney Island and watch the trains.
An incoming "T" would be resigned as follows. The north destination would be changed from "Astoria" to "Canal Street" and the route sign would be changed from "T" to "TT". Very often friendly conductors would allow us railfans to change the signs thereby saving him a long walk and giving us young fellow a nice treat.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That is correct, Chris. Immediately before Chrystie Street the 4th Avenue Specials were the only trains you could ride in revenue service over the Bridge, IIRC.
However, not that much earlier, the rush hour pattern was as follows:
Culver Express looped southbound.
West End Local looped northbound.
Brighton & 4th Avenue Bankers looped southbound.
IIRC (not 100%), the Brighton & 4th Avenue looped northbound in the p.m. rush. Culver and West End were the same a.m. and p.m.
During mid-day, Culver Locals went via tunnel both ways, West End Short Line didn't run.
Paul: Regarding the employmeny of Triplexes I looked up an article entitled "History of BMT Subway-L Services" by Bernie Linder on the October, 1966 Bulletin and another article entitled "Brooklyn Rapid Transit Service 1908-1938" also by Bernie Linder from the June, 1971 Bulletin.
The first four D-Types (6000-6003) were placed in service on the 4 Avenue local starting in September 1925. When the remaining D's were delivered in 1927 and 1928 they were assigned here. They were transfered to the Sea Breeze Line on September 22, 1928 and provided all service there until May 1959. They also provided partial service on the Brighton Local.
Brighton Express: Between April 1950 and May 27,1959 uses both B's and D's. After that time D's became the usual equiptment. The first Brightliners were placed in service on September 14, 1964 and by January 18, 1965 displaced all the older cars.
Brighton-Nassau: Begining in 1962 one train of D's was seen here daily.
4 Avenue-Nassau: begining in February 1963 D's began to show up here. This was because by now they had been assigned to the West End Line which actually provided this service.
West End Express: Prior to February 1965 only an occasional D's made an appearance. Starting in February 1965 D's were transfered here from the Sea Beach and could be found on the West End Express and the West End-Nassau Local and the West End Shuttle.
West End "L" Shuttle (Bay Parkway-Coney Island) It is reported that a single D ran here once probably in the very early 50's.
Culver Shuttle: The only report that I have of D's operating here was on March 23, 1974 when 6019 and 6095 made three round trips in regular service as part of a fantrip.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Steve: I always liked the Standards, especially the ACF ones. There was something warm and welcoming about those gentle giants that the Triplexes never had.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Then on 9/23/67, we transferred from the 8th Ave. line to the Canarsie and I saw "To BMT" signs. My first thought was, o goody! R-27/30s or even R-32s. Then we got to the platform and there was a train of - BMT standards. Oh no, not again! Cruel and unusual punishment.
Of course, there was more to come. That afternoon, I became an A fan for life as our train crept past 23rd St. It didn't matter that we were crawling along at about 10 mph. All I saw were I-beams on both sides and then I knew that train of R-10s wasn't stopping (unlike that E train we took that morning). That was all that mattered.
Please don't make fun of me.
I used to draw R-32 sign boxes on my book covers, with my name and subject in the route slots. Not to mention front bulkheads with route and destination sign slots on test papers with the route sign surrounding the grade.
Then I'd click my ballpoint pen on my desk. It sounded remarkably similar to the trigger caps on the R-1/9s and R-10s.
Harry; Looking back on the developement of equiptment it would seem that the IND R-1/9's followed much more closely the utilitarian design of the D'type.
Larry, RedbirdR33
No doubt about that, Larry. But the Triplexes had the classic rounded BMT windows and even the roof was somewhat rounded. The R1/9s were square to the point of being criminal, resembling Hylan and his fellow crooks.
One also must remember that the D-types had the greatest capacity, or appetite for "geese" of any subway car, foot per foot. The Standards were almost as good. The IND cattlecars not nearly so.
Harry: The Triplexes were indeed interesting pieces of equiptment. They were the last of the articulateds and as you said they had a tremendous capacity to hold passengers. Even though they certainly BMT originals it was the 67 Foot Steels that became known as the "Standard."
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
"Better than the D types that I've ridden."
I never rode one. And you only rode one after its retirement.
"They have spunk."
They had the worst acceleration of any subway car.
"They smell wonderful."
To each his own.
"They sound awesome."
I can still hear them growl under (was it Lafayette St.?) the street in Fort Greene, a memory from the '60s. They were serving the GG, of course. I didn't find the growling awesome, though.
"Is it December 27th yet?"
You'll never get me on one of those, again.
Of any pre-war car? If so, the others must go from 0-30 in a heartbeat, because the R9's accelerate like no other car I've ever ridden outside the slants.
Sometimes perceptions can be wrong. Sansone has in his book figures for acceleration of the R1/9s as 1.75 mphps. R10 and up 2.5 mphps. Those are the facts. You may have your reasons for liking the R1/9s, but acceleration should not be one of them, unless you like it slow.
That being said, the NYC Subway system is still the greatest, and it is fun to talk about hypothetical routes, new connections and transfer points and many of the other discussion topics that keep us going.
Your welcome. It would seemthat prior to 1950 the Brighton Express was mostly Standards but that there were several trains of D-Types assigned to fill out the schedule.
Larry, RedbirdR33
There is an interesting photo in Greller's "Subway cars of the BMT", p. 78. Shows a Triplex (last car No. 6020) on the northbound center track at Prospect Park on the Brighton. The rear bulkhead is signed as 1 Brighton Beach. The photograph is dated 1949. Looks like Triplexes were used as Brighton Express equipment prior to 1950, too.
Here are 2 pics of D types in what appear to be in normal service on the Culver Shuttle in 1964:
9/26/64
8/17/64
9/26/64
Chris: Based on your picture I did some further reseach and it seems that during middle to late 1964 a single D-Type was in use on the Culver Shuttle at various times. It just goes to prove that two heads are better than one.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
When the Q's first returned from the IRT in 1957 they did a one day stint on the Franklin on October 10, 1957. I understand that because
of difficulties encountered with the gap between the cars and the platform it was decided to add that overiding gap-filler to the Q's.
Five units were tested on that day one of them being 1602-ABC.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Here the plan:
times behind station example for one trip starting at 8 am
times behind line numbers: headaway on Mo-Fr
Tnisvorst, Wilhelmplatz 0800
041 (10)
Krefeld, Rheinstrasse 0815/0825
U76 (20)
Dsseldorf, Heinrich-Heine-Allee 0905/0915
U79 (10)
Duisburg, Hauptbahnhof 1006/1008
901 (10)
Mlheim, Hauptbahnhof 1028/1036
U18 (10)
Essen, Haubtbahnhof 1056/1108
107 (20)
Gelsenkirchen, Hauptbahnhof 1142/1145
302 (10)
Bochum, Hauptbahnhof 1222/1225
310 (20)
Witten, Heven Dorf 1311
For PDF-Maps look here:
http://www.vrr.de/Fahrplanauskunft/stadtlinienplaene.htm
It's unfortunately that we destroyed our trams for buses. After riding the HBLR for the past two years, this was clearly the most efficient way of moving people.
I had the unpleasent experience of riding the MTA M1 today in Manhattan. Even though it was a huge bus, we were packed in there like sardines. To make matters worse, it seemed like we were stopping at every other block.
I thought this would be a relaxing experience where I could view the sights of the city. I was wrong. With the bus driver constantly on the microphone telling everyone to "Move to the Back, Plenty of room in the back", it became unplesant watching eveyone squeeze past each other while struggling to get to the back.
The slow speed of the bus as we crawled in lower Manhattan made me realize how luck I was to ride the Hudson Bergen Light rail every day. It was almost a year since I last rode the bus, so the sufferage was limited. It will be more than a year before I get back on one again.
The guys on the other side will probably think I'm a sissy for making such comments but they really don't know the benefits of a tram. It's quite sad if you ask me.
Yes. We did have the largest tram in the world and replaced it with the bus. No wonder people buy cars.
That was the whole idea. The auto, oil, and rubber industries form a front company called National City Lines, which buys the streetcar companies and bustitutes them so that people will buy more cars. It's a sad story.
Mark
As early as 1923 General Motors was using financial pressure to discourage investment in New England Streetcar and railroads.
Add the lure (very, very false) of the open highway, and the ad agencies were only too happy to take Detroit's $$$$$.
The auto intrerests even got the Feds involved in their scheme.
Urban street improvement paid for with Federal funding in the 1930's had a "no rail" provision.
In Baltimore, in order to use the new Howard Street Bridge for transit the Baltimore Transit Company converted the No. 10 line from streetcars to trackless trolleys. The bridge was a WPA project. It connected Howard Street across the Jones Falls Valley with Oak Street (which was renamed Howard Street (oddly, the carhouse on 25th Street at Howard was called Oak Street to end of its days).
Now Kevin can add this to his things to do in DC.
Link to the Museum
Article in Washington Post
Article in Baltimore Sun
Chicago-L.org has that article:
http://www.chicago-l.org/articles/smithsonian01.html
And here's the Chicago-L.org photo of the 6719's mate, 6720:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/6000/cta6720.jpg
From this page: http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/6000s02.html
Wow, their website rocks!
Would this work? The 3 should be able to compensate for the 2's absence on 7th avenue.
Did you see any <5> trains while the (2) was there?
Maybe building a Second Avenue Subway would help, you think?
Elias
VC Madman
#3 West End Jeff
In a playpen in Yonkers NY.
#3 West End Jeff
After the announcement, he just stood there cleaning the ink rollers.
Elias
The news certainly brought everything to a standsill at Fort Knox.
I guess this event had the same shocking sense of loss as the events of 9/11/01. It was a seminal moment in American History, and an event that defines a country, and its people.
Did that have any special meaning to you as to who "they" were? Those were the very words I said when I told my brother the news. We both understood "they" to mean right-wingers, because that's who hated Kennedy at the time.
In my mind, despite what the calender says, 11-22-63 was the start of the REAL 60s, things started getting stranger and stranger from that day onward. Hell, by the end of that first weekend Kennedy's assassin had been gunned down live on TV while surrounded by police in the basement of Dallas police headquarters. Who shot him? The owner of a Dallas strip club. Get the idea?
Very true.
There were two "60s". The Camelot '60s and the Vietnam '60s. One had the seeds of the other, but 11/22 was the turning point.
Before 9/11/01 was the fantasy; after 9/11/01 is reality.
There was also a coin shortage in this country from 1963 through 1966 due to the increasing popularity of vending machines. A law was passed freezing the date "1964" on all US coins in an attempt to discourage hoarding, and it wasn't until clad coinage was introduced that 1965-dated coins began to appear. By then, 1966 had arrived. I had just started collecting coins and couldn't figure out why there weren't any new coins with the current date. Now I know...
I remember thinking, NOW it seems like the 21st century. Like the one in the movie BLADE RUNNER!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I don't believe that graffiti started in the 1960's. 1973, or thereabouts, is when it got going.
From what I recall reading, once graffiti took hold it spread systemwide very rapidly.
Julio and Marisol. I used to look forward to each new installment. Too bad it isn't still running.
That is capable of more than one interpretation :)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I do remember RFKs assasination much more clearly and can tell you that I was on a trip to Harewood House with my sisters and grandmother.
I would guess that for the Brits of my generation, the equivalent event would be the death of Winston Churchill in 1965. I remember sitting through the funeral (at the time the biggest outside broadcast the BBC had ever mounted) at my grandmothers all Saturday morning. However, it was only later that I learned about Churchills contributions to the 20th century.
John
President Kennedy had visited Homestead AFB to welcome back the prisoners from the CIA Bay of Pigs operation that the Cuban government had released. Kennedy rode an open jeep on the flight line from Air Force One to the hall where the welcoming ceremony was held. My platoon was working the evening shift, and this occurred in the middle of the day, so we were out on the flightline to salute him as he rode by.
The loss still hurts.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/forgottenblog/forgottenblog.html
At about 2:20 it was announced that the President had died (1:20 Dallas time) and school was being dismissed.
I took a 22 bus east to get to my line (19) and the only shounds were the bus engine and sobbing from the Eastern High girls.
I got home in time to see Walter Cronkite, in shirtsleeves, announce further details.
The whole school was immediately discharged and sent home. When exiting the school, kids were running past me, some girls crying. I didn't believe it until I arrived home. The TV coverage convinced me. The shooting of Oswald by Ruby only added to the surrealism of the whole event.
Bill "Newkirk"
After that, our nun said, "He's in heaven now."
On 9/11/2001, my dad was driving up to campus at Rutgers U.-New Brunswick to hold a meeting with administrative staff, along with me. (I was in my dorm, and I first learned the news by AOL Instant Messenger's then-competent news service, which issued the headlines off a newsticker. Ironically, had the meeting not taken place, I would've contemplated going to NYC had I not heard the news. My target? The World Trade Center's Vista/ Marriot hotel, which I had seen from the outside but not the inside. However, I'd probably never have gotten there, as everything was shut down in the wake of the attacks.)
Anyway, the meeting was either postponed or cancelled (due to the attacks), the University was closed (a rare closing in perfect weather!), and there were signs all over the place regarding blood donations, grief counseling, etc. In short, the responses to the Kennedy assassination were pretty similar to those of 9/11, although 9/11's response had the color of the post-Kennedy era (grief therapy, terrorism responses, etc.) attached to it.
Perhaps the solution to that would be cutting and pasting the story into the post to make it easier for everyone to read.
If it's not a problem for anyone else, disregard this. But it's just a suggestion.
If you browse the web on one PC, you can set a cookie so that the NY Times site will remember who you are and you dont have to log in every time.
I dump my cookies every week, so that's why I have to log in a lot.
Spybot search and destroy is a good free program to get rid of unwanted stuff some site sneak on.
That sounded very dirty.
"Dump my cookies" put an image of a longterm bathroom break in me head.
--Mark
Anyway, bewtween Ft. Hamilton Pkwy and New Utretch on the Sea Beach theres a platform on the Southbound track only, in the cut. It's very close to 11 Avenue, and it's about 2 or 3 train cars long. There really isn't anything there (there's no roof), but its wierd that they would just make that platform for no reason. Any ideas?
Another thing I've noticed on the Sea Beach is between New Utretch and 18 Av, there seems to be a ramp along the Northbound track wall, between 16th and 17th Avs, I think. It comes down to track level and seems wide enough for a trackway, and theres equipment built at the base, but I don't think it goes all the way up to street level. Could this have been a connection to the street?
Thanks
I don't know the answer to the first off-hand, but the second was a freight siding. Yes, the South Brooklyn Railway operated freight service on parts of the BRT/BMT system, and extensively on some of the trolley lines.
I am the Production Manager of the New York Division "Bulletin." Perhaps I would do.
We do have back issues, and we sell them. In fact, we often have flyers that go out with the "Bulletin" offering annual sets. An individual back issue is $5. Call 1-212-986-4482 for details; if the voice mail picks up, leave a message in the New York Division voice mail box.
David Ross
Production Manager, "The Bulletin"
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Chuck
Montclair/Boonton also goes ino NYC.
Also spotted an Acela, some AEM-7s, a few diesel engines, an NJT coach, and some older electrical cab car from Amtrak (name escapes me at the moment) at the facility between Claymont and Wilmington. What's an NJT coach doing there? Is this where the ACL currently has its coaches rehabbed?
Lastly... in Wilmington, just before the station, looking to the right on a southbound R2, I spotted... NJ Transit Light Rail Cars. Electric, so they're likely not the SNJLRT cars... at least, THINK I saw pantographs on them. They resembled the new Newark City Subway and Hudson-Bergen Light Rail cars...
Also, it seems DART First State takes TransPasses and TrailPasses as acceptable fare in northern New Castle County... I wonder if this includes Christiana and Newark. If so, there's the next system to tackle! How generous...
Got off my train in Chester, caught a 109 back to Springfield Mall, and a 101 back to 69th Street. Commuter from Drexelbrook working in Delaware has been taking transit to avoid driving I-95, and needed to know how to get to the 101 at Springfield Mall. I was originally going to exit in Swarthmore for the R3, but I've been there before (new commuter, too many options, dealt with it at age 13), so I decided to help the guy out... 101 had a few rather attractive ladies on it that night... not much luck flirting though. Had to sprint for my 108, but made it.
Next week: Norristown, Doylestown, Warminster, Trenton, and maybe Newtown.
Speaking of Newtown: Went to Southampton to check out the old station... asphalt platforms, wooden edges, wooden station building, LONG signs (like those at North Hills, Sharon Hill, Curtis Park, Marcus Hook, etc), track went from 1 to 2 here.... Not bad. but don't expect to stay long there. I was lucky the 24 picks up right across the parking lot from the old station; it was the last bus to Frankford.
There are really only three main line tracks thre. From south to north the tracks are A, 1, 2 and 3. A was originally used for freight trains serving the Chrylser plant, accessing the Delmarva Secondary and heading south on the NEC to Perryville. A was extended past DAVIS to a new interlocking with the SEPTA service to get SEPTA out of the way of anything using 1 2 or 3. Tracks 2 and 3 are the primary express Amtrak tracks as 1 begins at BACON and ends at RAGAN forcing trains that use 1 to make two diverging movements. It is really only used for Amtraks stopping at Newark and as an overflow track / long passing track. 1 is also used by freight trains heading south to Perryville. A, 1, 2 and 3 all support bi-directional operation.
The bottleneck for a MARC extension is the 2 track segment between PRINCE and BACON that needs to host long, slow, NS freights comming off the Port Road and onto the Delmarva Secondary. SEPTA is trying to extend to Elkton and thic might just run through on 1 to there or involve extending the A track a further 4 miles.
Track diagrams can be found at
Here is a picture of the NEC bottleneck between PRINCE and BACON.
Whether you saw pantographs or just imagined it, all the SNJLRTS (South Jersey River Line) cars are on site.
Photos of the stripped down classics piled onto barges....enroute to their final resting place. Lot's of action shots of Redbirds being shoved overboard..splashing into the ocean...and underwater shots taken outside and inside the cars. For those of us who rode those babies..(and who didn't..) it's eerie as hell to see the interior view of them completely submerged.
The Redbirds..."sleep wit da fishes"
Bill "Newkirk"
I dont think Rich Galiano is going out to them again until next year, from what he said to me on Friday. When he goes would you like any number plate in particular?
--Mark
Every maintainence type person I have ever talked with have always prefer the older cars. While they might have more frequent problems. the problems are easier to diagnose and easier to fix than on modern cars.
Modern cars with their fancy schamncy computers give you something like "Breaker Bank C Fault", you open it up and there are like 22 different fuses to check, then you find them all working because some other mystery problem created a condition that made the computer THINK is was a breaker C fault. Then you have to go check millions of miles of wiring and everything's all sealed up because its not meant to be fixed, only replaced, and its a nightmare.
Of for the day when the electrical system consisted of a wire from the shore to the controler to the motors to the brushbox.
That's an excuse for not having to update your skills because the world has moved on. Anybody with that attitude is more than welcome to retire or make for the unemployment line, and free up slots for people who are willing to learn.
"Modern cars with their fancy schamncy computers give you something like "Breaker Bank C Fault", you open it up and there are like 22 different fuses to check, then you find them all working because some other mystery problem"
Modern equipment is EASIER to diagnose because the computer provides a fault trace that older equipment isn't designed to give you. It also gives you the option of creating am LRU (line replaceable unit) which means you can upgrade the capability of the same system without ordering something completely new.
You're talking about a few individual components, not the entire system. I would like to know what a shop superintendent has to say about this.
"As for handicapped accessibility, older equiipment could have been adapted to meet the requirements of special needs passengers as was done by the PATH"
Yes, by ripping apart the car's insides and redoing them. ADA isn't just wheelchairs, it's lighting, audio, and tactile features. If you're going to do that much work on a rustbird, what's the point?
And, of course, we haven't even talked about the superiority of stainless steel in terms of graffitti resistance and carbody longevity. And stocking window and carbody components that aren't supported anymore.
"even the museum F Line PCC trolleys in San Francisco and Kenosha, Wisconsin, not to mention the PCCs to be used on Philadelphia's Girard Av Line."
It's ridiculous to compare a tourist attraction to a fleet of thousands of cars. Philadelphia will have a barn taking care of 15 modified cars.
I appreciate what the Redbirrds contributed to the subway, but it was time to move on. Railbuffs can visit the cars in the museums and even drive one at Branford. What you are proposing is not cost-effective. If somebody like Train Dude (shop superintendent who really knows this stuff) presented information to show that it was, then I might concede.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
David
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
I had a confused lady who thaught this was Far Rockaway but it was not. She asked me and I told her to go to Beach 90 St and get the shuttle. She asked the MTA worker on the platform and said the same thing and told her to go on to that train that was leaveing and for her to hurry but she was walking a little fast but not fast enough, she missed that train so she had to wait for the next A Train to go to Beach 90 St.
I had anouther lady who asked me that she needed to go to Far Rockaway and I told her the same thing as I told that confused lady but this lady was not confused and just needed a way to get back on track. She said "what a world we living in!".
And there was also a guy who was wtih a lady(Both got on at Conduit) and the guy was saying to her that to stay on this train to Far Rockaway and that he was going to get off at Broad Channel for the Rock Park Shuttle. Then they where talking and anouther guy came and talked with them and then the guy who got on at Conduit got off at Broad Channel then the lady was woundering why we at Beach 90 St and the other guy told her that to take the shuttle bus and they both got off at Beach 90 St.
More later
VC Madman
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
Some of the R42 cars wound up on BMT lines as well - about 160 of them all told, on the "N", "RR", "QJ", and a shared group for the "KK", "LL" and "M". 4550-4595; and 4808-4923.
wayne
But, like Steve, I never really cared for the "steels" either.
NIMCO. "Setting the STANDARDS, IN scrap!
Carmody: Jesus Christ, what was that?
Brown: What was what?
Carmody: I didn't know these things went backwards.
Brown: Now you know.
They HAD to go over that in schoolcar, right?
wayne
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
When I lived in Philadelphia, the railfan window opened on Market Street and on Broad Street until 1982.
I had the good fortune to date a girl who lived in the Cheltenham section and I did not yet have a car. I took the Broad Street Subway (BSS) to her. That was back in 1978 and a date often included four one-way trips between City Hall and Fern Rock. I went out with her for about six months and loved those rides on BSS B1, B2 and B3 cars. (The bridge cars were B3). My favorite was the B1 because it did remind me so much of my lost love from childhood, the BMT Standard.
Then out the back door the air would flow to the second (trailer?) car.
How eaxctly was he tackled and subdued?
For example, if I were behind him, I'd be tempted to tackle him, but I'd be afraid the gun would go off while I was grabbing him and somebody would get killed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
He ran out of bullets, and was subdued while attempting to reload.
Why is the R not running between Pacific and 36th, if the W is running? It must be single-tracking. But how is it single-tracking without conflicting with the W somewhere? Is the northbound W running express? That's the only solution I can see, but no such advisory is posted.
And are northbound R's jumping straight into the DeKalb bypass?
Or is the R advisory a late night advisory only? I thought it was posted for all weekend, but I can't connect to the MTA website right now.
Everyone was going by the bridge because the contractor had the tunnel track blocked in the station to perform work. They had scaflolds on the track to work on the ceiling.
This was the date that the first segment of the Baltimore Metro opened from Charles Center in downtown to Reisterstown Plaza in Northwest Baltimore.
A detailed history of the Baltimore Metro can be read at Scott M. Kozel Roads to the Future web site. Here are some photos I took for Scotts site on a visit to Baltimore back in February of 2002.
Oh and by the way MTA Maryland officially celebrated the 20th anniversery by providing free rides for passengers on Saturday November 22, 2003.
John
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Heh. Do you still think the N goes to Continental Ave on the other end?
No entrance at 110th st/Central Park North on the 2/3 line, the old 111th st staircase is the only one there.
No stairs at 87th st/Broadway
Entrances still mapped out at the following locations:
South side of Kingsbridge Road/Grand Concourse
North side of Fordham Road and GC (both stairs)
All six entrances at 174-175th Streets
South Portland Ave and Lafayette Ave (G line)
At least one exit at the Fulton St/Nassau St line in Manhattan
Bedford Ave/Fulton St (passageway leading to Nostrand Ave)
Partial list, more later next week.
wayne
when you hate the Brighton Line.
Now you know that makes no sense !
Bill "Newkirk"
1. Riding it constitutes one of your four or five greatest thrills.
2. When you so identify yourself with the train you called it yours.
3. When you live so far away you have to dream about ridng it and enjoying its thrills vicariously.
4. When you get so pissed off at what the TA has done to it that you even get paranoid and start yelling of a conspiracy against your train.
5. When someone makes fun of it and you actually turn beet red.
6. When your handle on Subtalk is named after the train you love.
7. When you're called #4 Sea Beach Fred.
I'll be visiting NYC in a week and had some questions for the experts. This will be my second trip & this time I'm going to try and ride the entire itinerary as detailed in "FAQ: Touring the subway".
1) Has anything changed since that piece was written that I would need to be aware of to complete the trip (a revised routing perhaps)?
2) If I could ride one of the Bronx Els, which would it be?
3) Which MTA bus would offer the most diverse sightseeing tour of Manhattan?
I'm very much into exploring on foot, so any safety tips or 'hoods to avoid in the boroughs would be helpful as well.
Thanks kindly.
The Broadway fer sure!
I rode the (1) to Broadway and tnen walked through/around Van Courtlandt Park to the (4) train. I had not been on the No. 4 Train since the 1960s.
Elias
Generally speaking, do I have any chance of getting a railfan window on daytime runs (anywhere, not just Bronx), or are they all full-width cabs now?
BTW - why is it that none of the newer models have centre windows, and for that matter left-side passenger windows? In Toronto, the entire fleet has always had both & it makes fanning so much more pleasant.
For railfan windows, they're essentially guaranteed on the 7 (Manhattan-bound only), C, E, J/Z, M (on weekdays), N, and diamond-Q. You shouldn't have to wait too long on the A. You have a small chance of getting a railfan window on the 3 (for now), F, L, and R, especially during rush hours, and the W usually has a few on weekends only. If you don't mind looking through a small but generally unobstructed window into the T/O's cab and out the front, you'll find them on the 1/9, 3, and 7 (Flushing-bound). Otherwise, all front views are fuzzy.
I agree with the nomination of the 1/9, even if it barely dips into the Bronx. It's a typical Bronx el at that point, but the variety leading up to that stretch is tremendous.
As for buses, the M4, M5, and M104 are my recommendations, depending on what exactly you want to see. Keep in mind that they're very, very slow.
During daylight hours, safety is unlikely to be a problem anywhere. If you're nervous, ask a fellow SubTalker to tag along with you.
wayne
VC Madman
VC Madman
From there we took the F to Roosevelt Island. We walked to the tram, and took that over to Manhattan. That was a fun ride. Saw the entrances to the old trolley terminal.
From there, we got the Q32 bus to the NY public library. That bus moves slooooooowwwww! Well, atleast the crosstown sections. Walked to GCT from the library, took the shuttle to TSQ, walked to the Javits Center, took the NY Waterway ferry to Hoboken South. The ferry ride was friggin awesome! It is a weekend only ferry, stops at Hoboken North, Hoboken South, and then Newport. Too bad that it's hardly any other services on the weekends. Oh well. Expensive though, 5 bux per person.
From Hoboken, took PATH to Herald Square, walked to NYP, and just made the 3:14 KO train. As we're pullin out, the one and only Belt Buckle Bob walks up!!!
Stops at Woodside, then Jamaica. We originally were gonna make a stop at Hillside, but then they said we wouldn't. Just after we roared passed the platforms, the train came to a very short stop. The conducter opened a door, and who I guess was an LIRR wrker climbed on.
Got to Mineola, and took the N23 back to Port Washington.
All in all, great trip, and I took a lot of pictures. I had to do an assignment on architecture for my photo class, so I figured wut better place than NYC.
During mid-days and on weekends, NY Water Taxi runs a longer route between E 90th St and the Intrepid via Pier 11, making stops at almost every operable ferry landing in Manhattan (plus the ones at LIC and Fulton Ferry) along the way. The price and frequency makes it primarily of interest to tourists.
The MTA's handling of the G/O was poor- Confused people and ZERO signs anywhere. I went though that crap solely for special G/O R142 announcements. Isn't that sad... I have no life. The 4 and 5 were pretty infrequent. and it was a half hour wait for a 2 train that was boardable, and they were running like every 10-15 minutes to wakefield.
Tell me if you want to hear the special G/O announcemtns from the 5.
The MTA screws the Bronx a lot, I'm suprised the <6> still runs after 8:30 in the Bronx.
What were the announcements anyway for the 5 anyway
Once again, there's no such thing as borough warfare. Are the people who use the 2/5 stations in the Bronx getting less service than they need? No, they are not. Why should NYCT increase its expenses (leading to a fare hike just a little bit sooner or steeper than would otherwise be necessary, or to service reductions elsewhere in the system) to run service that isn't needed?
The last scheduled 6 express in the evening leaves Brooklyn Bridge at 8:19 and reaches Pelham Bay Park at 9:03. Headways to PBP up until then are about 9-10 minutes; for the hour after that, they're about 5 minutes, and hover around 8-9 minutes for the following hour. Since the express saves about 2-3 minutes (comparing the running times of the last express and the first through local), it's a crap shoot in terms of travel time -- the time lost by having to ride local is almost exactly offset by the time gained by having a shorter wait. Those passengers who prefer to get a seat as soon as possible (or to get a seat at all) are better off on the local, and on average they get home no later than they would have on the express.
One thing I don't get on the 6 is the weekend 8-minute headways. How could that possibly be enough service in Manhattan? The 1 runs on 6-minute headways and it's crowded. Doesn't the 6 have heavier usage than the 1? (Hmmm, perhaps not on weekends.)
I don't get that one either. Last weekend using FunPass, I used the 6 quite a bit. I waited for what seemed like forever for the 6 a few times, and the stations seemed packed. I don't ever remember waiting that long for a 6 under normal service (meaning without problems on the line). Is this 8 minute headway something fairly new on the 6 weekends?
I always would say that the 6 was one of the best run lines, now that image has been tarnished a bit. It still was not horrible, but I'm used to almost always seeing lights coming way in the distance whenever waiting for the 6. Maybe weekday service just has me spoiled, and other weekends I was just lucky on the line.
Maybe the 6 really does have less passengers than the 1 on the weekends? I would be surprised, but have no idea, it still did seem very busy.
VC Madman
It's not. I had to get from E 94th St to 3rd St yesterday afternoon. Not trusting the 6, I walked to 86th so I could catch any train. I had just missed a 6, so I waited 4 minutes for a 4. I figured that by 14th it would catch up to the 6. But even though it was really full they held it at 42nd for 3 minutes, so it never caught up to the 6. So there I was at 14th, knowing that the next 6 was still way uptown. So I walked to Bleecker. All in all, over 35 minutes from 94th to 3rd.
Fortunately it was a nice day.
Not according to the schedule, they are usually similar, but during the rush hour, slightly more 3 trains operate than 2 trains
(2)N/B PM every 6-8 minutes
(3)N/B PM every 5-7 minutes
Not to mention that the (5) becomes a shuttle from Dyre shortly after 10pm, while (3) service leaves 148 until after 11pm
-----
Once again, there's no such thing as borough warfare
-----
Well that depends...for one thing, I could point out that the Bronx has 3 tracks on the Concourse line, even though it is competely underground, but that is something the IND did many years ago. Concourse should have had 4 tracks, even if it is part time, like the Brighton Line (which is elevated)
The J/M/Z line has midday express service, even though only 3 stops are skipped, while the 2/5 has less express service even though 7 stops would be skipped(of course 2 service isn't enough so midday local #5 would likely be needed). I would at least have #5 express service from 6AM-10AM(from E 180 ST) and from 3:30PM-8PM(from 149 ST-3AV) but that is for another thread
-----
Are the people who use the 2/5 stations in the Bronx getting less service than they need
-----
Are you talking about before or after E 180 ST? Before E 180 ST, the headways are usually good IF you want to go to 149 ST-GC and squeeze on the 4(or stay on the 5). Hopefully you will need the east side instead of the West(assuming this is a weekend)
Weekend (2) service
Saturday about every 12 minutes
Sunday about every 12 minutes
Weekend (5) service
Saturday about every every 10-14 minutes
Sunday about every 10-14 minutes
Is 2/5 ridership on weekends so light that it should have 10+ minute headway for each train (remember not everyone has the benefit of both trains)
-----
The last scheduled 6 express in the evening leaves Brooklyn Bridge at 8:19 and reaches Pelham Bay Park at 9:03
-----
No, it is scheduled Pelham Bay Park at 9:12, it is scheduled to reach E 177 St-Parkchester at 9:03
----
Since the express saves about 2-3 minutes (comparing the running times of the last express and the first through local), it's a crap shoot in terms of travel time -- the time lost by having to ride local is almost exactly offset by the time gained by having a shorter wait
----
The <6> is useful, I caught a bus (which left before the local train got there) and passed a (6) in the early evening.
2-3 minutes can make a difference
---
are better off on the local, and on average they get home no later than they would have on the express
---
Not if they miss a bus and have to wait 5-10 minutes(sometimes up to 15) for it
----
One thing I don't get on the 6 is the weekend 8-minute headways. How could that possibly be enough service in Manhattan?
----
I guess the want less people riding to relieve crowding. Poor service can lead to poor ridership, look at the Bx55 bus especially above Fordham Road (although it doesn't have poor ridership, just less people than pre-Metrocard)
I still don't know how to solve the damned A/C noise problem on the R142 (i've found a solution to this on the R142A although the PA system sucks and is a PITA to record) . I've recorded from nearly place on the R142. My next step will to be to buy a Sony ECM-DM5P mic.
Enjoy, and if you can/want to , comment on the files! :)
I still don't know how to solve the damned A/C noise problem on the R142 (i've found a solution to this on the R142A although the PA system sucks and is a PITA to record) . I've recorded from nearly place on the R142. My next step will to be to buy a Sony ECM-DM5P mic.
Enjoy, and if you can/want to , comment on the files!! :)
Are these announcements a plot to make foreigners believe they really didn't learn English after all? I certainly can't understand more than a quarter of them. Unsigned G/O's are inexcusable.
At 14th st, where signs about the L line was not running, the directions were to take the 4 5 or 6???? train to Fulton Street.
One M line G.O. tells us that no service is running middays below Chambers St to 9th Avenue, but there is normal service on November 27th. DUH! November 27th is is holiday (Thanksgiving Day) and no service is offered south and west of Myrtle Ave anyway.
Another M line G.O. card for the late night shuttle bus replacement tells us to transfer to the M at Myrtle Ave to continue their trip, Since the G.O. affects M shuttle service between Myrtle and Metropolitan, this effectively wipes out the entire M line. On top of that, the card mentions the Q20 bus stop as one of the bus stop locations (it's B20)
The weekend 5 line G.O. has it bypassing Gun Hill and Allerton Aves in the Manhattan bound direction when it's the < 5 > that only stops there in the AM rush. I mentioned this error in another Subtalk post.
NYCT is getting out of control here. They need a reality check.
All help will be appreciated.
Thank you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fifth Ave. El ran from Downtown Brooklyn along Flatbush Ave. to Fifth Ave., then south to 38th Street, then west to Third Ave., then south to 65th Street. The route north of 38th Street was the original trunk line to the original West End, Culver, and Sea Beach routes prior to the building of the 4th Ave. subway.
I guess he means 3rd Ave "el", which was the southern most part of the 5th Ave "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/fjgoldsmith/index.html
Which of course had huge capacity limitations due to having to merge with the Myrtle/Lex lines and there being only 2 tracks over the Brooklyn Bridge.
- Park Row to Sands St were 4 tracked
- the 5th Av had some way to Manhattan independent of the Myrtle Line
Sorry, the 4th Ave. subway doomed it.
I think I remember seeing a track map of the downtown area where all these els converged but I forgot what site that was.
There were 4 tracks over the Brooklyn Bridge - 2 elevated tracks and two trolley tracks. Most of the bus routes that now terminate in downtown Brooklyn are decendants of trolley routes that went over the Brooklyn Bridge and terminated at Park Row. Moreover, automobile traffic was not a problem during the years of maximum demand. Many people found the trolley cars more convenient door-to-door travel than taking an el.
Brooklyn Bridge transit was limited cable cars for most of the time that it had a monopoly for Brooklyn-Manhattan rail transit. They ran 90 tph peak and averaged 45 tph over 24 hours. That's equivalent to 6 tracks by the TA's current best performance. Even after through el service was provided via electric motors, the BRT installed a conventional block system that would safely handle 66 tph peak on each track. They did not need that much capacity because Park Row traffic peaked in 1907. The IRT's entrance into Brooklyn started the el traffic decline.
Walking around the currently named DUMBO area back then must have been like being present at a rail transit paradise. And with all the trains going over the Manny B, well, damn. The sounds...sure wish someone had recorded it, somehow.
I have uploaded to my image site about 20-30 photos which I consider to have the most merit in my collection on both a compositional and artistic basis. I have some favourites, but I wanted some external input so I wouldn't be going around with blinders on so to speak.
I would really appriciate any and all of you taking a quick look through and telling me which 1, 2 or 3 photos you think are the best.
The link is:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/Photo_Contest/
One note...this photo below of DOCK tower was taken through a grimy ass PATH window. However, its a nice scene, has some hits of blue sky and the sun is hitting the side of the tower. I can go back to the master and fix it up a bit in Paint Shoppe Pro to bust the grime so if you think that this photo is a real winner sans window crap, tell me.
I think the snowy haze gives it a cool look... there's also not many distracting elements in the photograph.
And, no, supplements aren't posted anywhere for the public to see, although IMO they should be.
Courtesy of NBC 10
What passes for a daily newspaper here didn't even mention it either.
At least there were lots of pics posted and linked here.
An awful LOT of "unsung heroes" did their very best that horrible day, completely ignored by "history."
http://www.queenstribune.com/
And it will look like this:
Click here
(a href="http://www.whatever.com")What you want the text to say(/a)
Just change all the ( ) to < >
(You can view the page source to see how I did it.
: ) Elias
Click here for story from 1010 WINS
And the cars will not be a threat to life underwater because the asbestos is not airborne? WRONG. There's lead paint, which can be injested by fish and sea life (remember the Redbirds were built in the mid-1950s to early 1960s, when lead paint was still the norm).
Bill "Newkirk"
Its a gradual event, and their usefulness as an artificial reef isnt diminished by the gradual falling apartactually its enhanced. Lobsters like living in the little holes created by the collapse.
I think the useful lives of the Redbirds as artificial reefs will be 50+ years.
John
Pictures coming in a few more minutes.
The first train entering WTC was cars:
head-672-650-732-116-646-851-766-tail
-Dave
836-801-602-165-815-884-875
685-636-840-170-825-842-893
801 was the highly-polished car with the "PATH Restoration" window cling as shown in my photos.
This would make a great trivia queastion, IMO, except I don't know what the answer is, anyone know? On another note, if the title was changed to reflect the hiring of women into the position, then why wasn't it changed to "Motorman" and "Motorwoman"? To me, that would have made more sense and sounded a lot better than "Train Operator".
Controlling several dozen tons of moving steel and thousands of people whose lives depend on you is no trivial task, and I guess I object to the wussy term "train operator" denigrating the severity and responsibility of the task. In the film, "Men in Black II" I got a chuckle out of the motorperson being dragged out of his cab by Will Smith, "I'm going to bust a few heads" and the title Hollyweird gave a motorman - "CAPTAIN" ... I like that, though the conductors (who are ACTUALLY the "Captain" of the train might object. But "operator?" Ewwww. It's an INSULT. :(
Are they going to build the permanent station on top of this temporary one?
Why don't you email me and we'll arrange a time to meet and exchange CDs. I'll put my shots from today on there too.
Picture #4........that has the Quick card and Metrocard, do you swipe the Metrocard or insert it ? That signs makes it look like you insert both.
Bill "Newkirk"
The customer assistance agents were passing out (among other things) brochures for "World Trade Center PATH Station Fare Information" and "MetroCard accepted at PATH World Trade Center Station". In brief, quoting from the first brochure:
"MTA MetroCard - Pay-Per-Ride Metrocard ONLY (not Unlimited Ride MetroCard, Reduced-Fare MetroCard or transfers) will be accepted at the WTC station. $1.50 per ride will be deducted from your MetroCard at the PATH turnstile. MetroCard will not be accepted at any other PATH station.* Consider purchasing a 1-Trip QuickCard for your return.
*Acceptance of MetroCard at all PATH Stations will be phased in starting 2004."
It may be too early to find out, but when you have enough fare left on the Metrocard for one ride, does the turnstile capture it, like WMATA ?
Bill "Newkirk"
We're railfans David, we'll make it possible !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There is also a door on the side to access the control electronics. I wasn't able to see a lot of the inside, but there is a small (notebook-PC-sized) keyboard mounted to the door, and a serial connector inside the main part of the turnstile.
This was an end-of-row turnstile, so I don't know if it was a controller for multiple turnstiles (I expect not, as the rest of the row was in service) or whether every turnstile has a keyboard.
What it didn't say was that there were also 156 NIMBYs for every 200 in favor...
Besides... they didn't VOTE for the people wou WOULD raide the taxes to do it!
Some things NEVER change.... :)
Only the brief section of ramp and walls (with the metal exit doors) leading into the IND "E" train platform is what remains from the real WTC, as seen on a sign attached to a column there. By the way, all the metal signs on the IND "A" line's express track platform now say simply "Chambers St", while the "E" line's local track platforms' signage alternate between "Chambers St" and "World Trade Center".
Now, I am sure there will be plenty of comments as to the first day of operation in this "reborn" PATH station, with lots of images coming soon on this NYC Subway Resources webpage or other railfan sites. I did see some of my railfan colleagues that I had recognized on the very stark looking platforms below, each of them getting their own pictures.
Anyway, I was able to ride one Newark-bound train leaving WTC on the westbound track sometime after 2:30pm, but as the seven-car consist of PA cars was midway in the tunnel, the train may have hit something in the tunnel and/or some wiring came loose off the ceiling and went on the track. I noticed also a pair of third rail shoes were somehow left behind on the roadbed.
As that Newark train pulled into the Exchange Place station, it was some quick thinking on my part to go back to WTC by taking the next inbound train. Sure enough, before that train (which was from Hoboken) pulled into Exchange Place, two PATH track workers were quickly dispatched to see what the problem was inside the westbound tunnel.
I arrived back to WTC with no problems at first on my train back into the station, but now all direct Hoboken-WTC service was suspended (and still was as of 4:00pm). In the meantime, Newark-WTC trains would single use the eastbound track and "wrong rail" back to NJ.
Anyway, it was good to see this PATH WTC station reopen again. However, all I can say for this moment that this was the first time that I stepped into what was the WTC site since that fateful day of 09/11/2001, when I was downstairs in the basement level of 5 WTC about one hour before the first attack on that sunny Tuesday just two years and two months ago.
-William A. Padron
["Hudson Terminal"]
On another note, I made it into the first car from Newark. Decent amount of room there, but significantly less as we made our stops. A couple riders seemed somewhat surprised as to the commotion, but almost everyone knew what was up. There were two elementary school-aged kids who were pressed up on the door who were having the time of their lives. It was very nice to see such energy about the rails in those kids. I must say to those who thought they could get on Exchange Place and shove their way to the front of an already jammed car "what the hell were you thinking?"
I found it to be pretty eiree because as you enter the bathtub, as you make the right turn before you turn back left into the station, you are in an exposed area and overlook the pit. I wasn't quite expecting that much exposure. At the station, there was a lot of press, as well as about 2 dozen members of a group supporting the preservation of the footprints who garnered some attention. Signs included shots at Pataki/McGreevey and advocating bedrock to infinity. I noticed the signs on the way to the IND station as well. Made several people near me look down as they were walking.
The new turnstyles seem to have some type of LED screen in addition to the mechnism that you pass your QuikCard through. I am still waiting for a more definitive statement from PATH as to how MetroCards will work. I asked a PATH rep who wasn't sure either...Not a good sign.
I boarded the first car at EXPL. Thank you for making the room for me, my dad, my friends, and other SubTalkers to share in the excitement of the first car. It was an amazing experience that I will never forget. G-D BLESS AMERICA!
www.railfanwindow.com
Now, on to the important question. Did anyone spot a black cotton jacket on a PATH train today? I've been on the phone all afternoon with the PAPD.
I was on the train behind you(2:32 WTC-HOB Train). I rode on Car #831. I was wearing a Black Jacket with Blue Jeans, Hat with "New York" and "GAP" on the hat with an American Flag Pin and I had a Navy Blue Nike Bag with me
BTW, Dave's page on the WTC station has already been linked by news agencies. The one below is with the CBC (Radio Canada). Look at the Hyperlien:
http://www.radiocanada.ca/url.asp?/nouvelles/International/nouvelles/200311/23/013-train-wtc.shtml
There's probably more at Neverland!!!
:)
-Harry
Couldn't have been a conductor... He didn't POINT at the ZEBRA!
: ) Elias
That said, I hope he was ahead of me on the seniority list. WOOHOO, move up one!
Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Daytona 500, and Spring Training. That's how I tell what month it is on the first half of the year, by knowing when things are that I can never get arrangements made to go to! :)
Unless if he did the incident last year, but i can't see federal charges or courts in the State of North Carolina being that slow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The new PATH station and 7 WTC building are the only things I like about Daniel Libeskind's "Memory Foundations." The rest of it is TOO UGLY, and that THING will fit in NYC as much as Penn Basement. People like the PATH station because it's a reminder of what was there, while the new buildings and memorial will be visited at first, and then people will stop coming to see this eyesore. Libeskind reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright and Le Corbusier, and his designs aren't exactly masterpiece material. I feel frustrated that the twins are completely being ignored by the media and the PA as if they never existed in the first place...8-( I have a feeling that once finished, the "new WTC" will be criticized that maybe in 50 years if the US still exists, the PA will tear this monstrosity down and rebuild the twins. There is nothing that the little person can do to stop this, the PA is TOO strong- just ask the people who lived on Radio Row in the 1960s and lost their houses and businesses.
As the PATH station reopened today, and my 20th birthday is coming this Thursday, I've decided to draw up a fantasy World Trade Center plan that includes the twins, the street plans, the PATH station, the new WTC 7 as well as the old one, a reconstruction of Deutsche Bank, the Singer Building, the old H&M twin buildings as the new WTC mall, and the museum underground where the old mall used to be. I was thinking of including the plaza sphere in this museum as well as a memorial of the 9/11 and '93 attacks. I wanted to model it after the Liberty Island museum that's located in the fort and under the statue and pedestal with the old torch. Lower Manhattan doesn't need a new cemetery on the 16 acres- there's plenty of cemeteries in the city that have been completely forgotten and no one cares about the people who are buried there- even though they are as much people as those who died in the Trade Center. If anyone is interested in my fantasy designs, I'll send an email this weekend.
Sorry I got off-topic, but I just wanted to give my two-cents to this special event! 8-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Amen, brother !!!!
Regards,
Jimmy
To view the whole album, click the thumbnail below:
www.railfanwindow.com
That last part of the sentence sums up this bittersweet day. Great photos as usual. Thanks for sharing.
Crowd in the first car of the train, on the way to WTC.
SubTalkers and others outside the first train as it paused for a moment before heading back to EXPL. The train is on Track 4. NWK trains were supposed to use Track 4 and HOB trains were supposed to use Track 3.
At EXPL, after exiting the first revenue train. After taking photos, we would go back over to the eastbound platform, to catch the 4th revenue train to WTC (2nd revenue train from HOB to WTC).
That's just one photo, for all the rest, click here.
AMTRAK
What distracted me, ate up my time and caused me to arrive late was a very rare find at a certain subway station in Brooklyn. But I can't post it here, because I don't want some TA employee reading about it here and then taking it down.
Surely you've wrong-railed on the NYC subway! It happens during many G.O.s
Since when does speed define what is and isn't a railroad? If you look at "The Way We Were" in the latest Destination Freedom, the Providence freight tunnel could only be safely traversed at 5 mph in its final years. The Bay Ridge has, IIRC, a 10 mph speed limit. Are these not railroads?
Scrantonians may be a bit Back Asswards.
But I guess the real reasoning behind your method is not to create an even more mixed up phrase, but to just conceal that fact that you are uttering a curse word. That's just sissy.
So we agree!
I arrived at the outside of the station around 1:30, at first dismayed to see a huge crowd as I approached via Fulton Street from Broadway. I was quite relieved to learn there was no line and that most of the crowd were your usual Ground Zero gawkers. It was hard to tell if there were any Subtalkers on Church Street waiting for the grand opening- though I did see everyone's friend, Dennis Riga. There were a few demonstrators and counter-demonstrators around, but they were very well-behaved and orderly.
It felt very emotional, but in an uplifting way, when we were allowed in (Kudos to those who opened the gates PROMPTLY at 2:00 as advertised!). It was hard not to get the chills when seeing Ground Zero at a much closer perspective than ever before. The below ground open-air format reminded me of 30th Street, Back Bay and even Journal Square. The huge photos of the area through the years was a nice touch. The track layout seems reassuringly similar to what previously existed.
The applause that broke out when the train came around the curve really made the day- as did the applause coming from the passengers emerging from that train and the passengers on the first departing Newark-bound train.. Outside of the beginning of a MOD trip, arriving subway trains NEVER receive ovations. At Exchange Place, people were running back and forth between the platforms to photograph whatever they could.
In the excitement at both WTC and Exchange, I caught sight of Daves Pirmann, Greenberger and Newkirk, Lincoln R30, Brian, D-Train and others I recognized from previous events but whose handles I don't recall. (Was that Jeff Rosen I saw at the rear of the WTC platform?) It was impossible to keep up with everyone at Exchange Place, so I hopped the next Newark-bound train, whose railfain window I shared with Chuchubob.
After using the facilities at Newark Penn, I returned to Pavonia-Newport to grab a bite and the HBLR to its new 22nd Street terminus. Somewhat confusingly, the 33rd-bound train I got at Journal Square was announced to be detouring through Hoboken- the way weekend service had been until about ten years ago. This couldn't be because of the WTC festivities. At the 2:00 opening, trains to Hoboken were being offered on Track 3.
HBLR seemed much faster from Newport through Liberty. It seemed like all the lights at the crossings were with us. Was this a lucky coincidence? Or have the signals been coordinated to the trains don't have to stop in response to complaints about the line's slowness? The 22nd Street terminal seems interesting, being located on a viaduct above the street. The neighborhood looks a little more lively than at 34th. The LED signs still read 34th Street, but the canned announcements were replaced Bayonne-bound by a live conductor. Returning to Hoboken, the usual female canned announcements were heard. And as has been the case every weekend I've ridden HBLR, NO ONE came around to inspect tickets.
I got off at Exchange Place and rode one stop back to WTC, where the setting sun made for a very eerie effect in Zero and around the terminal. Happening onto another Subtalker, we walked to the inside entrance to the A, C and E trains, which looked reassuringly similar to the way it had. The ramp leading down to the turnstiles was still there, and I could instantly visualize where the newsstand had been.
My wife just advised me that she caught a glimpse of me on last night's 10:00 PM Channel 11 News. It was on Church Street, and I was next to a protester being interviewed. I didn't see it myself, having fallen asleep by 9:30 last night.
It's a big renewal of hope seeing PATH service return to an area that seemed beyond hope two years ago. This temporary station may be a bit more permanent than originally thought, because my feeling is nothing will be built on the site for many years. This is because NO ONE WILL EVER AGREE on what should be built. No matter what plan is submitted, someone or other will be offended and try to block it.
Oddly, when I was on HBLR, there were two ticket inspectors at Exchange Place, and they managed to find somebody who didn't buy a ticket. They also "informed" me of the no photography policy on the light rail because of terrorism. So instead of getting into an argument, I just walked onto the street where they couldnt bother me and say anything. At 22nd, with no inspectors to deal with, I took pictures freely.
I think they're getting better at timing the line with signals, since I didn't endure any long waits for the light to change. The only really slow spot I observed is the stretch between LSP and Jersey Avenue where the LRV moved at 15-20 mph. With only two grade crossings at the extreme ends of the station, there's no reason for such a slow ride between these two stops. It's the Achilles heel of HBLR.
As for 22nd Street, It's a little bit livelier than 34th Street, but only by a little. They're both in residential neighbourhoods, but the only difference is that 22nd Street has a school, church, bodega and gas station nearby, while 34th street just seems to have nothing nearby. I also like how it's on a small embankment, so there isn't any interference with local traffic. Sadly, Liberty State Park could have used the grade separation as well since the approach to that station is one of the slowest sections of track in the system. At least install some RR crossing gates so the LRV can just cross without stopping.
Like I said previously, around 12:30 on that horrible morning I thought to check the PATH Forum on the old RR.Net. Someone had started a thread called "WTC STATION". There was just one very brief message -"Is it still there?" Now the answer is yes!
Regards,
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Thanks to Joe Brennan for his fine contribution
www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway/
As far as I have heard, Stillwell Avenue is on schedule. Since this is essentially a complete rebuilding of the station, I think its unreasonable to gripe. Better to be thankful that progress is being made.
OTOH, about those escalators at Court St/Borough Hall
And leave off the last S for Sunset!
Regards,
Jimmy
Many Subtalkers there.
My photos of the first train and the station are on this Webshots page, beginning with the second photo.
Other photos of interest that I took today (and one that Brian took), including the last Newark train to terminate at Exchange Place, are on this Webshots page (the last 8 photos).
You posted a LOT of really good shots on your site, too.
Hmmmm, save money, or spend even more time wit girls, hmmmm. Well, i'll b, holy crap! Imma be 17 when I get back to NY! FREAKY!!!!!!! oooohhh, aaaaah! Wow, that is really scary.
AMTK is RESERVED seating (on long distance trains). Your seat is reserved for you for your entire trip. Seats in the lounge and cafe are not reserved, and are for anybody's use. You will be seated in the diner by the dining car crew.
Elias
You know, if you express an interest and deal with the crew respectfully, they will often allowq you to photograph interest things and alert you to interesting sights. I realize that 9/11 may put a damper on that, but you never know. Sincerity still counts for something.
On my trip, I took pictures of the crew at work for their scrapbooks. I even got a dinner date with my Sleeping Car attendant in San Diego after the trip was over (but her dad, a retired NYC Transit engineer who hated NY with a passion, decided he didn't like me and that was the end of it...) I rtook a picture of her in uniform standing next to the Sleeping Car sign on the Superliner, and mailed her the print for her photo album.
If you want comfort, you return to your own seat.
Elias
It is usually 1-3 hours late getting into Minot...
and 2-5 hours late getting into Chicago.
BNSF gives them no breaks.
Elias
Your trip on the Zephyr to Chicago, and then the Lake Shore Limited to NYC, will take 3 days. It will be about 48 hours to Chicago, then probably a layover until your NYC-bound train leaves. But depending on how long it is, you can take advantage of that layover to see a bit of Chicago. When I did the trip in 1988, I spent 8 hours in Chicago, eating pizza at Eduardo's with a friend, visiting the science and industry museum in Hyde Park, etc.
Amtrak is pretty comfortable in coach, but you do have the problem of finding a shower. The onboard showers are reserved for first-class passengers. You may have stops in places like Salt Lake City that are long enough to let you change clothes etc. I don't remember whether Amtrak supplies blankets, but you can bring your own. You can brush your teeth in any coach restroom.
The food on the restaurant car is excellent and coach passengers can partake (but you pay for it by the meal, unlike First Class, whose price includes all meals). Or you can bring your own food, and ask the Amtrak folks to microwave something for you.
Check out Amtrak's website for schedules and prices: www.amtrak.com.
But then, so is the L.
The time I visited, the Museum had a whole exhibit devoted to the art and engineering of toilets. The other big exhibit was on bicycles.
Also, what they got to eat? And what is the price range for the meals?
As a matter of fact, the last time I went NYP to CHI, I took a LOCAL to PITTSBURGH, and then took the WAS -> CHI train late at night. That gave me a free stop over in Pittsburgh, AND a much longer layover in Chicago!
I always liked Chicago.
Elais
Pretty comparable to a moderately priced restaurant. You can get breakfast for less than $10, lunch about the same, dinner (I think) was $15-20, dpending on whether you ordered drinks. Unlike a restaurant, the Amtrak dining car has a limited, rotating menu, meaning you can't just go for the burger and fries at dinner - the kitchen is too small to have a wide variety available for the same meal.
I think there's a cafe car open at the sme time, though, $5 for a microwaveable sandwich, $1 for a soda.
Mark
I always thought that each coach should have a vending machine or two.
Elias
Amtrak "GeeseChow" is pretty decent, whether by the club or the dining car ... sometimes it's WORTH it to pay the bucks for the diner ... Wiener Schnitzel, best I ever had was on the shore line out of Providence southbound ... yum! Amtrak *CAN* satisfy ... really!
To put it in perspective, try SLEEPING, or EATING on the D train ... Amtrak makes it LUXURIOUS! Best damned Manhattan Hotel I've ever stayed in was the route of the pointless arrow. :)
The best catfish dinner I ever had was in the restaurant car, rolling down the Colorado River. The steak is usually pretty good, and there are other dishes. I ate blueberry pie and key lime pie for dessert. On later trips, with my wife along, she liked the coffee.
That's a pretty interesting trip, phili to topeka. How was the chicago switch, a hassle? Imma have some pretty big bags wit me. One of them UP duffel bags, a sleeping bag, and maybe another big bag, and then a small one wit my CD player and CD's and games and shit like that. Are there lockers at Chicago, and how much do they cost?
Heh, I cud just see it now. Imma get on the train to NY, and then just as we leave, "OH SHIT! I fogot my stuff in the lockers!" lol.
The switch in Chicago wasn't that much of a problem. First of all, your 9 hour layover will become like 4-5 when the LSL limps in 4 hours late. There are ample lockers in Chicago, big ones even. However they cost..well..your soul...per half hour.
AND IIRC, they only take quarters. You will need a roll of quarters to get your stuff out!
Elias
As top travelling on Amtrak, I find that about 30 hours at a time is the most I can tolerate, after about 30 hours I start hitting the bottle (and the counter is re-set by having an overnight land stop).
AEM7
I have taken AMTK from MOT (Minot) to NYP via CHI. I had no trouble sleeping in a chair car. Bring a BLANKET, I used a soft neck collar (foam C-collar) to keep my head from falling over. Don't forget your Teddy Bear! I always travel with my Teddy Bear! One time he took a different flight than I took, because he was packed in a suitcase. Now he always travels carry on... Bears like Carion, you know.
: ) Elias
Well then, don't stop off in NORTH DAKOTA, cause they got clue as to how to cook steaks out here.
As for me, I Love, Thick Red Juicy Steaks... But AMTK does ok with them.
Check your timetables to see what meals they are serving on the train.
The Lake Shore Limited USED to serve dinner after it left CHI, so I didnot bother with a meal in town, then when the train left, I discovered that they no longer served that meal onboard any more : (
Elias
Mark
The ride is so nice but sometimes you can get that "fallen off tracks" feeling when the zephyr passes through the Rocky Mountains.
Still Amtrak is worth every penny, except maybe the food in the dining car.
The fun part of S.F was that the cab driver didn't know where Oakland train station was, so from my picture brain I was able to navigate him back to the RR station. That was in 1985. Another item to note; my mother feared while riding over the S.F-Oakland Bay bridge, she thought if an earthquake happened in the bay area, it would damage the bridge we were on.
Four years later, she was right.
On the Northeast Corridor, the food is too expensive, like shopping in New York. All they have is crappy yuppie stuff, none of the real food like you get in the Midwest.
AEM7
Ten years ago I rode Boston to Tempe on The Lake Shore Limited and Texas Eagle; I got a roomette on 448 only. Coach was reasonably sane for two nights, as long as you divide up your day by walking the train and hanging in the lounge car.
Oh and on the Sunset Ltd, the chicks don't have rooms, and if you pay them they'll go to your room...
Anyway, I managed to get 12 pics from the day, since that's all my crappy digital camera could hold =(. They can be found here. Enjoy.
Very emotional while at the same time a very optimistic feeling, it was amazing!
Im sorry I did not bring my own camera, probably the only time they are going to let folks hang out and take pictures.
I'm doing research for a class paper on the automated announcements in the subways. I'm especially interested in the conductors' perspective.
Specifically, as a conductor do you prefer the automated announcements? do you think you provide better service to the riders? have you heard any complaints (or positive feedback) about them from riders? is making announcements something you talk about with other conductors, or is it more an individual thing? do you think they'll go the way of the automated announcements in the taxis, or are they here to stay?
do you get tired of listening to them all day? ;-)
please contact me at fugatz1@yahoo.com. any info you can provide is greatly appreciated.
thank you !
-Claudia
Automated announcements can only improve the service for passengers. I'm sure it gets kind of boring doing the same announcements over and over again several times a day as a conductor. And when you're bored or frustrated or whatever other reason eliminates your enthusiasm for your job, the announcments become useless for passengers.
An example?! How fast can you say "Junction Boulevard. This is a 7 local to Times Square. 90th - Elmhurst is next. Stand clear of the closing doors"? You need more than 1 second? This guy can do it faster:
http://hartisland.de/Subway/Sound/7train/7tjunction.mp3
I sent that sound file to several friends the past weekend (all of 'em non-New Yorkers), and not a single one of them had an idea what that guy way saying (a few of them recognized "Times Sq").
If you need more, go to http://hartisland.de/Subway/subway.html
Good luck with your research!
"ayteenavenusteppenstankleer." Translation: 18th Avenue - step in, stand clear."
:-)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
#3 West End Jeff
What it's lost is the elevated flavor, especially in the pre-Dual Contract stations at Park Place, Dean Street and Franklin Avenue. It doesn't have the "crowds to Coney Island" feel any more.
OTOH, the right-of-way from Park Place to Malbone Street is still pretty much original, and the 1878 railroad tunnel at Eastern Parkway is cleaned and lighted for the first time.
The new stationss definitely have an intentional "faux-BMT feel" to them, more so than what they replaced, which was really a BRT feel.
Anytime you want to come down to my Brighton Line, you are more than welcome and we can ride (and look out the drunken RF window) the shuttle back and forth.
It is worthwhile to note that the sign mosaics at Botanic Garden are pure BMT/BRT style except the signs are two lines while almost all of the BMT signs used one line across.
Anyway, it's a neat little line and dripping with history.
Look at the first picture on this page.
(a) Is it "safe" (Abels "Flatbush Odyssey" hinted it wasnt the best!)
(b) What are the patronage levels like.?
Next time (in the city) perhaps ......
(b) Lots of school kids and heavy patronage in the AM rush but most of the day the line has decent ridership numbers. The transfer to Botanic Garden to the IRT Franklin Ave station is heavily used and has taken a small but significant burden off of the Atlantic Ave transfer since the rebuild.
Do you mean people are going IRT -> Franklin -> Brighton?
Actually, I wouldn't expect the lengthening to be a big deal. As far as I can see, there are no major physical obstacles in the way of expansion.
Would be a victory of sorts...
Extend Botanic Garden and Franklin to the south, the curve sould not be a big deal at Franklin. Extend Park Place to the north and we can still retain the single tracking configuration as is.
Second, "that curve" was used exclusively and continually for 40 years after the wreck, by both wood and steel cars without incident, so it could do so again.
Ironically, the accident involving (IIRC) R32s at that spot was caused by splitting the crossover that was installed to allow Franklin Shuttles to turn on the O2 track and thus avoid the tunnel.
And, in answer to CC's original question: of course they could through-route Brighton trains to Franklin Avenue if the platforms were long enough--in fact, they could through-route them now (as an emergency turn-back), but you could only open doors in two cars.
Remember that the fatal tunnel is a Dual Contract tunnel, and already handles R68s on occasion.
Also why would TA want to have Brighton service go back on the shuttle?
None that I know of. For the record, it's a 6MPH-mile curve, now as then. Remember that Luciana took the curve at a probable 30-40 MPH and still might have made it, if the train had been properly made up.
I wonder what caused the derailment of that light train over there in the 60's or was it the 70's?
Split switch. The one used to avoid teh curve.
Also why would TA want to have Brighton service go back on the shuttle?
For flexibility. In there was a need for supplemental local service. If Coney Island comes back and people would want to switch from the IND at Franklin or the IRT at Botanic Garden. In an emergency if DeKalb or the tunnel under Flatbush Avenue were blocked.
I got to go through the S-Curve at that time.
Sorry if you consider it a sexist nickname.
Glad you enjoyed.
YES, I'm one of the biggest cheerleaders for the good 'ol Frankie...
The FS still has much of it's BRT 'old world charm' in the stonework of the retaining walls south of Park Place. Also, there is an old wooden staircase that goes from Sterling Street down into the cut and this is almost certainly something that pre-dates the era of fare-control collection in the system (Best to see it in winter when the foliage is less likely to block it from view).
Take a ride or walk the neighborhood on a sunny day and notice the amazing amount of 'untouched' architecture along the ROW. The old Interboro Brewery at Montgomery St. -- formerly Consumer's Park, and the HJ Heinz plant near Bergen St. -- which in itself was a former ale house under the name Nassau Brewing Co. at the turn of the 20th century. Both Franklin Line breweries recieved and shipped goods via the freight services of the South Brooklyn Railway along the original Brighton Line (more on this later -- perhaps to be found at rapidtransit.net sometime soon -- hint, hint :).
I remember the view of Consumer's Park and the stairway from back then.
After I was six, I went on to bigger and better places to watch the trains.
Regards,
Jimmy
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Man, I should probably go and buy my Amtrak ticket for Tuesday post haste...
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Turkey
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I think that a no-brainer would be hanging the wire down to Richmond and a new Main St passenger rail terminal with stub storage tracks for trains. That's right, the NEC should go Richmond to Boston.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#High-speed
I don't know about this talk of 80-95mph though. 130mph isn't bad, but at 80mph, your turning into a more comfortable and attractive version of greyhound. If you can get the train to do at least 2-3 times the speed of the auto, then you got something going there. Outside of Atlanta and The Triangle, I dont' think people are going to make the right choice when cars, buses, and trains do the same speed. Unless they mean 80-95 in urban area's only, then fine. I can't remember what the study's said about the speeds.
It's good that the whole East Coast has been studied in detail now to link up train service, and I think Acela was studied to be expanded further south to link up to future SEHSR too.
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BNSF said they were going to quickly rebuild it..the question is...will it be a new wooden tressle?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Amtrakrerouted
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You know I am really starting to miss the good old days when I could count on getting like 4 seats to myself. Now I am lucky just to get two seats to myself. Passenger rail has sure taken a dive over the last few years.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Amtrakridership
The Sunset limited is the line Amtrak gets the most flak about since it's a money loser. Yet, even with a 50% growth, it's still losing money!
What get folks is that you can eliminate all 16 long-distance services and Amtrak still won't be profitable.
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Woah, 1/3 the AEM-7's out of service. Holy crap. No wonder ALPs are on the Keystones and clockers and Silver Service trains are getting power changed at Philly or even Newark. This can't be good for bussiness. I guess its all that deferred maintainence catching up with them. Damn you Warrington.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Some
AEM7
Not a locomotive, but more than a few revenue service subway cars. AEM7
Yes, multiple chronic failures, aka low reliability. But it doesn't just sit and stops functioning. It'll still move if you fix each problem as it comes up. If you 'let things go', the cost of replacement parts and labor and downtime add up to much more, but it doesn't producing something that is unfixable. There's little that a thorough overhaul won't fix. The problem is the cost.
As for the AEM7's burning up because they hadn't had their PM's, I'm not sure why they're doing that -- probably a combination of conductive dust, insulation failures, and components overheating because of age. There PM's might have helped. Someone else have more specific information?
My understanding was that long term O/O/S locomotives usually have one of a few problems, usually not 100% maintenance related: (1) catastrophic failure, such as a frame crack, collision damage, burned out traction motors, or fractured piston, etc. (2) 'Christmas Tree', where the engine was used as a parts supply and therefore will not run until all the parts are replaced. Granted, some of these problems could be the cumulative effect of not doing 'light' maintenance, although all of these problems can occur EVEN IF you do all the light maintenance. All you can do with proper light maintenance is to decrease the probability of catastrophic failures.
I think all the locomotives that are sitting are sitting because somebody made a decision that they are 'beyond economic repair'. Of course, that decision can be changed if the owner's financial situation improves. It seems that many FRA railroads got away with not doing much PM for a very long period, and they simply fix the problems as they come up (even if it means a more expensive repair).
Your point is well taken. I do not mean to defend Warrington's actions. I'm just trying to say there are reasons for asset failures that are not necessarily immediately maintenance-related, and that there is a balance to be found between running assets and maintaining them. If you kept everything in the shops all the time, there will be no failures; but there will be no revenue passenger miles either.
AEM7
You could always line up the passenger trains end to end (carriages only, no locos) and charge a very cheap fare for people to walk through the cars to their destinations...Just think how much you'd save in operating costs...
:0)
Manufacturer's schedules are mostly a case of ass-covering. Most manufacturers don't know their products well enough to know how often maintenance is required (just think about the Breda cars, and their suggestion that the brake system needs overhaul once every six years). Usually the experience in practice is much different from manufacturer's specifications. One components on the Kinki Type 7 cars outlasted their manufacturer's specifications by some 180% before they became unsafe to run.
AEM7
Hughes Aircraft Co. routinely built satellites which weree supposed to last 6 years in orbit but last a lot longer.
Extreme example: The Hughes-built probe which parachuted into Jupiter's atmosphere was supposed to last 45 minutes or so and withstand 10 atmospheres pressure before malfunctioning. It was still transmitting good data 57 minutes after atmospheric entry and at 23 atmospheres' pressure. Then contact was lost.
Jet Propulsion Lab, Parasena CA, built the orbiter, with various companies supplying the subsystems.
We built Galileo's probe, the radar antenna for the Magellan Venus Radar Mapper (both spacecraft helped rewrite textbooks!), and GOES G and H (Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite), as well as Intelsat VI and a bunch of military birds (probably "eavesroppers" to listen into Soviet and Chinese communications, but we were never told).
No, they do. They don't do it for ass covering, they don't make these numbers up. They research them and make estimations.
And if you follow them, surprisingly, the stuff lasts a LONG time.
Hell, I have a test going on right now of a relay switching a contactor to test it's potential reliability in a new design we're doing. 2 million on/off cycles is the goal to meet. And that's under 'worst case' situations which won't be seen in service. And, we're even thinking of tracking relay actuations in the controller, and havingthe computer reccomend replacement on an as needed bassis, i.e., if the Z relay clicks 2 million times, the computer will recomend it's replacement when the guy comes by to check things...
We've also run semiconductors hot enough to melt them off circuit boards (and they survived, and ran in spec afterwards), we've overloaded power supplies by more than 200%, and a few other fun things. Why? Because by knowing the limits of the devices, we get a picture of how 'safe' our design is, and also how long to expect it to last.
And research lets us devlop better products. One device I designed, an isolator board, was good in version A. But it ran a bit warm, and the power supply wasn't as conservative as I wanted. Version B was better, but heat was still an issue. Version C has a large heat sink area, and overrated electrolytic capacitors, plus extra large circuit board traces. It runs cooler, and will last longer. It's easier to make, cheaper, and more rugged. We're pretty sure it'll easily last the life of the controller - 20 years - or more. And the most vulnerable parts are easily replaced.
Every manufacturer does research, and a lot of that is life span and maintenance testing. So, no, the recomendations aren't ass covering.
This might be true for a competent manufacturer, or one that has some kind of market reputation to maintain. When you have a manufacturer who is in the business of designing custom-built railcars in production runs of about 100 vehicles, there's not the resources to do any substantial research, and some of the components are one-off designs that, even though they have a theoretically calculated asset life, there is no practical experience with it.
The AAR does a lot of component testing for standard railroad components out at TTCI in Peublo, but the transit stuff, especially one-off designs, is simply not tested to the same rigour. So in some cases the manufacturer's estimates are nothing more than an engineer's best guess. If you have a major component that you have to either replace or keep in service (e.g. a truck or bolster assembly), you will need some nondestructuve way to test it -- you can't simply look at the manufacturer's specification and say if it must be overhauled every 12 years then that's what you do. You'll need to inspect it and gain experience with it, and make a decision as to whether you want to keep it running or pull it out and renew it.
Because by knowing the limits of the devices, we get a picture of how 'safe' our design is, and also how long to expect it to last.
Again, this works for a large electronics firm designing boards that are printed in quantities of 5,000 or perhaps more. Doesn't really work when you only build 100 railcars and did not build a prototype and did not test one destructively or repeatedly in production environments. The 'burn-in' test you do is only good for say 15,000 miles but your railcar might run 2,000,000 miles over its life span.
Manufacturers want to provide as much utility to their customers as possible. It is not in their best interest to sell a product that is too expensive to maintain.
In fact, that is not the case because of the procurement cycle. The issue here is that the manufacturer is only concerned about winning the current order. They wash their hands as soon as the order is over since the railcars will last 20 years or more. The low-bid manufacturer always wins, so if they can build a high maintenance item for cheaper, they will do it. Even long term DBOM contracts lie, since manufacturers will at most be tied into maintaining assets for 10 years, and usually however badly designed you can make a railcar limp into its 11th year.
Every manufacturer does research, and a lot of that is life span and maintenance testing. So, no, the recomendations aren't ass covering.
I wish that were true.
AEM7
Well, I am sorry. Never did I once say that neglecting maintenance is a good thing. I don't get what the point is that you're trying to make, other than that you think people should blindly follow the manufacturer's instructions without any attempt to validate them through practical experience when you and I both know that manufacturers will not have as much experience with the product as someone who has been running the product for years. If you run the product, understand the engineering, pay attention, you can come up with a pretty good PM program that works for your particular situation. If you just run the product into the ground, you are headed for ruin.
AEM7
While this is in general true once one gets out of the arena of consumer goods and into the arena of commercial and industrial equipment, 'Acela' was the first word that came to mind when reading that statement. Manufacturers cannot be trusted not to foist crap products on the customer if even the slightest opportunity to do so presents itself.
Acela is not an example of that. Acela is an example of a manufacturer and acustomer failing to communicate about just what a product is supposed to do and how it is supposed to do it. There's a lot of silly Bombardier-bashing posts here, most of them not based on any semblance of reality.
Acela was new, and still has a hell of a lot of teething problems. Some of these are Bombardier's fault, some are Amtrak'sd fault and some are NY State's fault.
I'm at a small elevator controller firm in inwood, and desperately looking to get the heck out :(
It's not a BAD job, but it's not a great one, and the pay sucks. It's been a fun year working at a micro-firm (we're like 20 employees), especially given the building's condition and the interesting things that happen as a result of it (mysterious leaks - we found water dripping out of an electrical cable once. Pipes that go from nowhere to nowhere, big short circuits, possesed windows and doors, lack of any storage...).
Anyway, I'm looking to move on...
Any RR engineering book will tell you the first life of an electric is very very long, and that the wear items are the running gear (are you considering an overhaul to be a rebuild, or not?) Of course, transformer rebuilds make sense when it's out of there, but transformers are surprisingly reliable if you just care for them - there's plenty that are much much older than the AEM-7's out there in the world (look at most pole pigs in older neighborhoods, or Septa's silverliners).
I wonder how many GG-1s the PRR popped when they were only 20 years old? Or for that matter, how many RC series locos SJ pops on a regular bassis, and how many ALP-44s pop on a regular bassis.
Even still, there's no excuse for it beyond bad maintenance, which can be attributed to whatever. Ditto for Amtrak's diesel fleet. Or anything else out there. Manufacturers don't pull maintenance schedules out of their asses...
Yes, so part of it is a cleaning/maintenance problem -- then there's the filter issue. But beyond that, components age, insulations become brittle. These things are things that will be replaced in an overhaul (or at least inspected), and that's a maintenance function too. However -- some things do go wrong even if you do periodic maintenance, and you can maintain to a level where your maintenance is getting in the way of operations. So there is a balance.
Any RR engineering book will tell you the first life of an electric is very very long, and that the wear items are the running gear (are you considering an overhaul to be a rebuild, or not?) Of course, transformer rebuilds make sense when it's out of there, but transformers are surprisingly reliable if you just care for them - there's plenty that are much much older than the AEM-7's out there in the world (look at most pole pigs in older neighborhoods, or Septa's silverliners).
You can't compare the transformer in a pole pig to one in a railroad environment. In any rate, are any of the pole pigs getting any serious maintenance (and if they are not why aren't they catching fire?) The design of those pole pigs are completely different from one on a locomotive. Firstly those are oil cooled and by convection, because you pretty much don't have a space constraint and you can make the radiator any shape you want. Plus given the amount of space they occupy, they are rated much lower than the transformers aboard an AEM7 (5,500 hp is about 4kW, right?) Usual pole pigs are anywhere between 5kW and 15kW, and they're pretty big. Secondly the windings on an electric locomotive is subject to periodic vibration which can cause problems for coils. Then there's the fact that transformers aboard electric locomotives might be actively cooled via a fan rather than passively cooled as pole pigs are. (I don't know the details in that area).
Or for that matter, how many RC series locos SJ pops on a regular basis, and how many ALP-44s pop on a regular basis.
British Rail's English Electric locos (class 83) did start catching fire when they were only about 15 years old (in 1977 or so) and a bunch of them were sidelines for this very reason. Most others were better, but by the mid 1980's many class 81's and 85's were catching fire on a semi-regular basis. It is true to say BR ran those into the ground, so the problems are likely maintenance related, but there are other causes for onboard fires.
there's no excuse for it beyond bad maintenance, which can be attributed to whatever.
You can gold-plate your assets if you don't care about cost effectiveness or capital requirements. Amtrak probably under-maintained their equipment, but over-maintenance is just as bad as under-maintenance.
AEM7
The Tupolev TU-154, the Russian equivalent to a 727, was built to fly to an airfield with less than wonderful runways, and to survive neglect. Tupolev understood that the mechanic at some distant airfields in Siberia might be too busy constructing a still to make moonshine vodka, to notice that the landing gear or engines were due for inspection that day, so the airplane is simple and rugged enough so it can skip the PM and fly anyway (to a point). They do crash, uncomfortably frequently by US standards, but it's a testament to Andrei Tupolev's genius that they don't crash even more often.
Come on. Modern insulation lasts a long time. Today's sillicone and plastic based ones just don't get brittle with age. There's plenty of miles of the stuff everywhere, indoor, outdoor, and it's fine. 50 years ago, with early plastic, rubber, and cloth types, it WAS an issue. Today, it's less so. And in any case, that's what regular inspections are for, and will catch.
Secondly the windings on an electric locomotive is subject to periodic vibration which can cause problems for coils.
Ummm.....
EVERY transformer's subjected to it. All transformer have windings that flex internally because of the changing magnetic field.
Then there's the fact that transformers aboard electric locomotives might be actively cooled via a fan rather than passively cooled as pole pigs are. (I don't know the details in that area).
All locomotive types are air cooled. Most are liquid imeresed with radiators (air blast types were used years ago. They may eventually make a come back). Large substation transformers are radiator cooled, just with HUGE radiators because there's no need to save space. in any case, both types have thermal sensors to pick up high winding temperatures, so overheating to fire should NOT be happening.
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God damit, the lousey Frogs bailed them out. Well, I can't say that I am surprised, I mean who thought that the French would actually let market forces cut the dead wood out of a market sector.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Alstom
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Hmm, not sure exactly where this article is comming from. It makes a lot of good points, but some of it seems to be sort of a backhanded attempt to blame the railroads and government for grade crossing deaths for what is still human failings. Sort of like, "too many impatient people are killed at grade crossings. We need more signs and protection devices so that people can be safe in their impatience." Maybe instead of trying to make a system that caters to the driver speeding along at 55mph and has .4 seconds to glance at crossing protection, we should expect them to maybe, you know, slow down and take the time to verify the status of a crossing.
BTWm, the round pre-crossing RXR signs have that shape for a reason. Back in the 30's when the road sign system was developed, they decided that the greater the danger, the more sides a sign should have. RR crossing were considered to be the most dangerous so the signs were made round as they have an infinite amount of sides.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#On
Plus, there's another woman driving an SUV mention in the story. :)
On the other hand, I agree that consistency in signage, or increasing the proportion of active crossings (lights, bells, arms) can be very helpful. Perhaps we do need to change the signs used at passive crossings.
Every once in a long while a driver may die amid murky circumstances. But the fact remains that virtually all accidents occurring at actively protected crossings were, in fact, due solely to the driver's error in judgment. Period.
And take that story about the lady in the SUV. If she was caught in the crossing as the gates came down, do we know why? Did her car stall? At worst case, could she not just open the door, get out of the car and jump free of the tracks? We're not given enough details to judge.
By the way, shortly after one fatal accident in Suffolk, a sports car was spotted beating an MU consist by literally a few feet as the train started across the intersection. There were ambulances present, police cars with flashing roof lights, officers completing their investigation. And this moron drives across anyway.
Should I really care what happens to him?
I know the train engineer doesn't want to be there - unfair to the engineer!
At that point, frankly, taking the Darwinian approach isn't a bad thing.
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It seems like the Destination Freedom guy has taken it upon himself to make noise regarding Positive Train Control systems. All this uninformed blather does is lead to things like NJT's disasterous SES system on the PVL and other systems that reduce efficiency, flexibility and restrict the engineer in how he handles his train. While passenger trains are very forgiving, long-haul freight needs to have a personalized human touch.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Wanted
IMHO, the GPS based systems are stupid - the technology's there to do it better and more reliably via other methods that are no doubt cheaper and better overal for safety. US&S is selling beacon-based PTC as a catalog item.
One good collision involving a blown signal, a passenger train, and plenty of deaths, and that'll be enough to push the FRA over the edge and you'll see PTC mandated in lots of places.
What REALLY needs to be done *now* is development of a unified standard, because the technology is going to be mandated sooner or later.
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Yeah! Go EMD!!! Too bad EMD really f---ed up their cab design. To tell the truth they are not much better than GE now.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#UPorders
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Gentleman, stary your NIMBIES.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#LIRRplans
The yard in question would probably serve electric trains beginning either at Huntington (as now) or Northport.
People just don't want a railroad yard next to them, with the noise and lights. The fact that it will improve other people's property values is not relevant.
BTW, since NIMBY is an acronymn, it is pluralized with an "s" not an "ies".
Which we were supposed to get some 20+ years ago and never happened. Then Congressman Bob Mzarek obtained funding to start this project but then LIAR President Mc Giver took the funds and electrified to Ronkonkoma. As a sop to the PJ branch he said we'd get dual mode engines to give everyone a one seat ride. The prototype coach was 3 years late in delvery and the DM engine was 5 years late. Then there were problems in the design and manufacture. We are now aware of the cracks in the undercarriage requiring engines out of service for a long stretches of time.
Look at the McGiver's broken promise. Only two DM's per weekday and none on weekends. ELECTRIFY ALL THE WAY TO PJ !!!!!!!!!
Politicians should keep their promises !!!
As much as the LIRR wants to keep politics out of it, IMHO, it's time the politicians in Suffolk get their ass in gear and do something to FORCE the LIRR to electrify the line - the LIRR clearly doesn't want to, since it would render a good chunk of the DE/DM fleet surplus. But then, PJ riders didn't want this fleet in the first place, and I don't think anyone else outside the MTA/LIRR did either. They've been junk, they perform like crap, they're slow, unreliable, and loud. The LIRR is STILL tangled up with EMD over getting these duds to work right. They were a poor investment by a very shortsighted management.
Let's get real here - the population growth on the East End isn't going to stop anytime soon. It'll only cost MORE in the future to electrify the PJ and Montauk lines. The LIRR is already largly electrified. Knock out east of PD, east of Yaphank, and there's not much left that's diesel. The DE/DM's are killing track, and since they need to concrete the system anyway, there's no better time than NOW to lay the third rail and start moving toward the all-electric LIRR that will only be needed in the future anyway.
I don't see the need for electrification everywhere either. But Polrt Jeff needs it badly.
A perfect location would be the former lumber yard in Smithtown on the south side of Rt. 25A, just west of Edgewood Ave. and just east of the bull.
I have never stopped there only have passed by it. While the LIRR tracks do pass to the south of it, many questions have to be considered such as -
1 - The slope of the land. The LIAR has said if the slope is more than 3% its too steep to start leveling and the property won't be considered.
2 - How large is the property? The RR wants a 16 track yard. While Lumber yards are traditionally located on big pieces of property is this piece big enough ?
3 - What about the enviromental impact? IIRC there was some problem when Stop & Shop acquired the old Tri-County Flea Market across 25 A from your proposed site. It had something to do with the stream that is on the north edge of the property. Does that body of water run underneath this property ?
4 - Cost of acquisition and the RR's reluctance to double track and electrify east of Huntington.
Didn't know Stop & Shop acquired the property across the street (the old flea market). Hell, I remember for years when it was Billy Blakes! (a department store similar to K-Mart, only cheaper). There is a stream west of the old lumber site; it ran adjacent to the restaurant across the street from the bull, just east of the train trestle. The stream ran under 25A, IIRC, and eventually leads into the Nissaquogue River.
Just to the east was a furniture store ( Nan-Rich ?) was renovated with a brick front. Don't know what is in there now. Next to it (eastbound) is a Dunkin Donuts and an off brand Gas Station on the corner of Edgewood & 25. The restaurant on the S/W corner is now (I think) an Italian Restaurant again. It was a Chinese place for a while and looks like it might have been a diner when first opened.
The S-58 still runs past the properties.
In a previous era the goodies included alcohol and women but we all know thatr that doesn't fly today...:0)
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Minneapolis
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Just more alarmist bullshit. As the article points out, if we gave into all these demands we'd be living in the 1800's due to the lack of modern consumer items and technology.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Railroads
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Record corn and soybean crop? Way to pull one out Midwest. Way to help even out that trade imbalance.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Covered
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AAhhh Ha ha ha ha ha. Just when you thought CSX couldn't get more evil.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Chilly
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#CSXsells
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Here's what interesting. Many of the powerplants in southern CT lie right along rail lines, but do they use rail for their fuels? No! They use barges!! I wonder what happened to put such a foul taste in their mouths re: railroads. I know the powerplant near Middletown CT even had a freight yard inside the fence, but had not seen an actual train in about 10 years.
Its nice to see that barge operators can profit from government funded dreging, navigation and ice breaking while the railroads get squatola.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df11242003.shtml#Coal
#3 West End Jeff
About when the Second Avenue Subway opens.
Meanwhile back in DC, the Pentagon has been repaired and back to normal. Only in NYC do we have special interest groups jockeying for precious media exposure and delay an important rebuilding project.
I say screw 'em all and rebuild the damn towers already !
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree. It seems to me that if they would put it to a public referendum, more people would choose to rebuild the towers as they were (but pehaps not right on the old towers' "footprints") than would choose any of the current proposals.
You know Bob, I had the same idea about rebuilding the towers, but not on the footprints. They could build them opposite the footprints and leave the footprints for the memorials. I like the idiots that say build nothing, but leave the entire area as a memorial. Not exactly the "can do" spirit of the greatest city in the world.
But geez, this is really turning into a circus, with Lebeskind storming out of a meeting and victims families upset about THEIR idea of the PATH WTC station name. It seems we're spinning our wheels in lower Manhattan and not gaining any ground.
A good chunk of those tenants are across the river in Jersey City with the HBLR Line on their front doorstep. They aren't coming back across the river again with the great expense of moving a company. Lower Manhattan's loss is Jersey City's gain.
Seeing what Lebeskind's "tower" is supposed to look like, do you invision a stampede to sign up as tenants. I read different newspapers letters to the editors columns. And every once in a while, there's a letter written by the average Joe or Jane who's fed up and would rather see the towers return. Let's see how this pans out.
Bill "Newkirk"
On a side note, anybody see the preview for THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW? Looks like it'll be a hell of a movie.
For sure. On the other hand, rebuilding the towers as they were probably would not make sense from an economic standpoint, given the much-higher costs associated with building a skyscraper over a certain level (~70 floors IIRC), not to mention the "creepyness factor."
Of course, that still would be a far, far better alternative than the present, do-nothing policy.
They're gone, and it's horrible that they're gone, but now move on and build something for the 21st Century, something that'll be timeless enough to still be something to be proud of in the 22nd century... as long as NYC is here.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm just against rebuilding the exact same thing we had.
It's 2003...time for new ideas, new architecture, new paradigms. Let's not make it 1962 again. That was the year the twin towers concept first came to light.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Libeskind started fresh with a new concept. Let's see it through.
Libeskind started fresh with a new concept. Let's see it through.<<<
We can see, even in this short thread, that we all have wildly differing opinions on what ought to go there, and that's playing out as the disagreements between Libeskind and David Childs have come to light. Basically, it looks like Libeskind is trying to keep as many of his avante-garde concepts as possible, while David Childs is pretty much sticking to the Silverstein plan...replace the office space as best he can, and that means a blander concept.
At this point, we don't know what'll get built, but Pataki set a Dec. 15th deadline for an original concept to be finalized....
www.forgotten-ny.com
If people hate what he wants to do, why did he win the contest?
Childs is, appropriately, representing his client's wishes. I see no reason why Libeskind and Childs cannot work together to produce something good.
Sometimes, one has to just go with it. I'm gratified that an ARCHITECT is designing it, rather than another "Mc Realestate." :(
Good ENOUGH!
#3 West End Jeff
PATH WTC station
I can sum up this: LITTLE BY LITTLE WITH EACH PASSING DAY, WE WILL OVERCOME AGAINST 9/11 AND BE STRONGER THAN EVER.
Yesterday was a testament to that statement, I simply and quietly prayed for the lost souls that we stood under.
R30 and David of Broadway were on one of the PATH trains when this picture was taken.
No we won't. The replacement complex will be a mockery of the former structure. The Panophobes and necrocrats have killed our national spirit.
You're right. Maybe the only thing for you to do is fling yourself in front of a train and end it all. But before you leave this hopeless, worthless world, you could help give it a fitting end:
1) Advocate publicly for relacing all US&S signals with GRS signals and eliminate all pneumativc switch machines.
2) Replace passenger rail equipment with garbage-hauling flatcars.
3) Have 30 cents out of each rail ticket go toward an SUV fund to buy everyone an SUV.
I'm just placing YOUR garbage in a suitable container.
Don't like it? You stay out of the fish market before you post!
How exactly was my post a HERRING? It directly addressed the topic. You tried to shift the arguement to my opinions on railroads instead of the suitability of WTC2. Your hypocracy knows no bounds.
But seriously, a gentleman doesn't tell...
Oh yeah? I could see it; some folks sick of my "wit" or something. This format/subject is undeniably fascinating. Railroading, not killfiling. And it is true that many folk into the hobby are intense users of Subtalk. As is usual in the world, some people just gonna rub you the wrong way. Even if they, too, have a love of trains.
It's sad to contemplate but true. So that's why I (reluctantly) use the killfile. Got about six names on it. Why? Couple of reasons, mostly. One, I don't like their approach to the subjects they post on. It bugs me. So I don't need to get bugged. Also, a couple of guys here are too much into the praising and following of other respondants. To the point of nausea. I don't want to not be a gentleman...suffice it to say, the strange case of the "Unca" is my case in point. Makes me want to hurl...
..and, related to that is another reason for killfile lists. Some posters here like to be "very witty" in every single post. As if...we were all dying to hear their words of wisdom. And I ain't talking about hah-hah witty. I'm talking "ironic" witty. And the little old editor in my head says, "Please".
Sure, I'm cutting myself off from a data resource. Luckily, the population hereabouts is well rounded in skills and experiences. One leaf falls, the tree goes on.
That's a good thing, all in all.
Both of you have made significant contributions to the knowledge base of this boards members. I value both of your opinionswhen they dont descend to the kindergarten playgrould level.
Please, learn what I learned (the hard way!). If your contribution would only hurt someone else, leave it unsaid. Its not always necessary to have the last word.
John
Well top of the morning TO YOU!!
Except you. You've already been trampled. It's over...:0)
AEM7
I think that there's quite a bit of freedom at Subtalk. David provides a comfortable home for us. I don't think he rules it as a king, nor does it seem that his word is law. On many occasions I have seen David ask people to stay on topic and avoid nastiness, yet people went ahead and did whatever they wanted. And rarely was anyone struck down by a bolt from above. If someone is irritated by another poster, killfile them and spare us your crusades.
Remember E_DOG?
He went over the line with flagrant racist posts, and a couple of others chimed right in.
Remember the Talks sutdown a while back? We all had to go to Harry Becks's board.
When SubTalk & BusTalk came back, the three were bye-bye and can't ever come back.
The constant "snipe hunt between Jersey Mike and Ron doesn't go anywhere near that.
I'll buy that. If I have my druthers, I'll always prefer King Log over King Stork.
KIDS ARE KIDS, ACT YOUR AGE OR DO I NEED TO BUY RATTLES AND PACIFIERS FOR CHRISTMAS?
?????
Just Kidding.
I will side AGAINST the person who brought the personal attacks on board.
Well American PIG you are just a PIG aren't you, The Other White Meat?
Did you know that a hexagon is the largest polygon which can be fitted against other identical polygons without a gap requiring the use of smaller polygons (triagles etc.)?
And the biggest number that can be written with 3 digits is...
...
wait for it...
....
Nine to the ninth power to the ninth power.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ahem.
Thank you. It's about time and I side with you on this. Love your pics by the way.
Regards,
Jimmy
And I don't care is someone told me the pictures are horrible or poor, I will accept that too. Just as long as we are discussing the photos is good enough. Not posting a response at all about my pictures is good too. Just don't try to say WWWWAAAAAHHHHH! when you start bitching and go off course of what this thread intended to be.
Regards,
Jimmy
You were the one who brought out the attacks against him.
Bonus: I "saw" one of the PA-4 cars with the LED destination signs! W00t!
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
So in otherwords, next week, once December rolls around, there might be a big increase in ridership.
He also said that some of his workers might stick with the alternative forms of transportation, such as the ferries, but most people were looking forward to taking PATH once again.
I was also interviewed by Staff Writer Andrew Glazer, but I didn't make it into the article.
:)
The swap will happen after some testing and technical issues are solved.
The only way that can happen is if MTA acquires single B-cars to extend some sets to 6-car units...a VERY unlikely occurence.
Otherwise, for every 11-car train created you "abandon" 4 prefectly healthy cars. MTA simply can't justify that kind of wastefulness.
Further, it was none other than Mayor Mike who talked MTA into "seeing to it" that ONLY New Technology Trains are used on "his" East Side Lines. Bloomberg's summertime brush with "reality" on R-62 car 1623 in 2002 made sure of that!
IMHO, I just don't see anything but R-62As in Flushing (at least in any kind of impact form) for at least ten years and probably a lot longer than that.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Any thoughts?
Mark
Incidentally, Southern Penn Traction ran trolleys between Media and Angora (near the 34 line's terminus) until around the early Depression, but I don't think the line went through Landsdowne.
Mark
thanks
thanks
Enjoy! (yea I know... I have a thing for the 5 train....)
i myself like the six, it is the best for seeing the abandoned stations
I need to travel (this Friday) from White Flint Mall to downtown DC. My question - is it possible to leave one's car at the Mall and walk to the White Flint Metro station, or should I drive (to White Flint, Grosvernor, or Twinbrook)and then park at the Metro itself? Which is better (parking fee is no object)?
Thanks in advance to all who answer.
Here is a link to info for the White Flint Shuttle
http://www.shopwhiteflint.com/directions.htm
Mark
As for parking, the other replies seem to be fairly accurate. While I use two of those three stations on a daily basis, I do not park at either one and can not answer your question.
The walk from White Flint Mall isn't all that bad. Its all uphill going to the metro, but you benefit by walking downhill going back. Twinbrook may have a lot of parking on Friday too because of it being the day after Thanksgiving. I wouldn't suggest Grosvenor with all of the construction going on there. I don't even know if there really is any parking there right now.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album65/IMG_6937
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album65/IMG_6939
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album65/img_7061
It is on a handle (for lack of a better term) which can be turned to show the desired color.
The individual lights came on later car orders.
If you go out on the "bridge", walk to the front of the present building and turn around 180. The new building will block out your view of the water and to some extent the highway.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
i hope they post them soon. soon i gotta go back to bed to work tonight at 11pm-7am
As soon as the T/O proposed answer key is out, I will post it here with the link to it as a reminder.
VC Madman
Heck, it's practically like that ALREADY!
Oh, and let's not forget that some crosstown buses are slower than walking during parts of the day.
A Lit "S", a lit "20"?
Station Time only works with a train ahead, but behaves just like Grade Time...
I don't know about specific signals, but this slowdown has been the case since a track worker was killed by a train there close to 20 years ago.
There were a number of R-17 fan trips this year between East Haven and Short Beach. And for $35 you could even have driven it!!!
"It's not just a NO.... it's an "OHHH HELL NO!!"
Essentially, its the same as a mail&ride ticket...one of those cardboard metro cards with the ticket printed on the back.
This is a scan of what I recieved (I didn't scan the refund instructions though)...The ticket on the top is the actual ticket, the Metrocard underneath is supposed to represent the other side of the ticket, but I cheated and just stuck another Metrocard on the scanner :)
I can't figure what the point is, since you must wait for the ticket to be mailed to you. Essentially you can purchase the same ticket in front of the TVM at the station.
Bill "Newkirk"
In terms of the "what the point is"...for me, i'm going home by Amtrak/LIRR for Thanksgiving, and i'll have 7 minutes to make my connection in Penn, so by not having to buy the ticket beforehand, i'll actually have a fighting chance of making said connection (that is, assuming Amtrak is on time....). Indeed this was a special situation, plus I wanted to try out this new service, but under normal circumstances, i'll probably just buy the ticket at the TVM or ticket window.
It appears to me that they just connected their Mail&Ride ticket printer to a special web form where people can enter a credit card number and buy a ticket, and the printer just had to be re programmed to print regular tickets as opposed to just monthlies. In otherwords, it was mostly a programming change as opposed to a major capital investment.
Its a pretty harmless system that some people might find beneficial (and don't forget that you also save 5% on ticket price....if I ordered 20 of these, that can add up). I might not know a week in advance that I'm going to take a specific LIRR trip, but I know that in all liklihood, i'll take an LIRR trip in the next 3 months so if I buy the ticket online, I can save it for my next trip.
All that being said, i'd like to see some kind of system where people can print their tickets off the net after buying them...but that would require a capital investment of ticket readers for conductors....until then, webticket isn't going to be taking a huge bite out of TVM/window sales.
(Check your email, BTW.)
"I'm still trying to figure out why there's a discount on single tickets purchased online. Doesn't it cost the LIRR more to mail your ticket than to spit it out of a machine? And the bank-imposed transaction fees for processing a physical credit card are probably lower than the fees for processing a credit card number with no proof of an actual card."
Don't forget they eat the cost of postage too....
They did ask for the 3 digit security code on the back of the card for extra security BTW.
Perhaps the LIRR wants people to buy web tickets since they can be processed with less human interaction then window sales or TVM sales. I'm guessing web tickets are handled automatically all the way, with maybe a couple of people monitoring the process. THink of all the maintnance that goes into one of those TVM's....
1. That round trip ticket you purchasing was printed on whats normally a weekly ticket with $20 on the metrocard. Thats why it probably says non transferable and also looks like why there is a WK near the metrocard exp date. The round trip from the machines with $4 MC's have a blue background on the LIRR/MN Ticket side, as opposed to Green.
2. Mail and Ride has never sent me a ticket that has the stations printed in lower case, along with the zones in two digits. My Zone 1 to Zone 7(Technically Flatbush to Bellmore) says:
CITY ZONE 1
MASS. PARK 7
on it. The font also looks similar however, but I'm not sure if its the same.
Just my $.02
You may be the exception to the rule. Since you are traveling into Penn Station from the west, I see your point about missing your connection by buying a ticket. I just may try one for the hell of it. And since I'm a Metrocard collector, another one the collection.
Bill "Newkirk"
The ticket you purchase at a TVM is identical in all respects except for one very important one. The TVM doesn't give you 5% discounts (2% on monthly tickets).
Mark
Suggestions, comments and other forms of input are appreciated.
But the Roosevelt one I may redo, since it does seem unusually rushed. But for some of the other local stops, I can get away with a three-second announcement.
Once I get around to doing G train announcements, expect to see PLENTY of rush-jobs!! ;-)
VC Madman
VC Madman
I'll try and fix that when I get the time.
*Preparing to joke*
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
VC Madman
This helps people who have hearing deficiencies, people who have problems because of background noise, people for whom English is a second language etc.
You could also try to record some door opening/closing sounds to add to the background for extra realism!
John
R30 (Lincoln) and David of Broadway were at the RF window and a big applause on the platform greeted the train. We took off slowly, as I was near the window as David reminded me that I shouldve started from Newark. As we approached EXPL, and even bigger crowd was cheering us on. Sir. Ronald of McDonald was taking photos on the platform along with a LOT of people and boarded the train, of course. A PATH supervisor was next to the T/O cab giving instructions for the operators first time back into WTC. The new tunnel and signals look great as we gently made the right turn then sharp left into daylight and the pit. I WAS SO OVERWHELMED BY THE WAY WE DID THIS. We entered Track #4 and stopped there with EVEN MORE PEOPLE on the platform, including Howard Feinman. Not sure if our web host rode the first train or waited for us but he was there too. The station looks nice for a change of most Manhattan stations which are indoors (except for 148th st/Lenox and 5 stations along the 1/9 line.). Sunday was a big day, free entry to PATH, the newsstand, Hudson News, come back to the hub with all profits from opening day to be donated to a WTC charity fund. And the anti-footprint demonstrators were there too, showing signs of PATAKI AND MCGREEVEY, YOU LET US DOWN, because the part of the station encroaches on the towers footprints. You can clearly see the Detusch Bank building covered in back tarp (the building that needs to be demolished because the structure is unsafe). I ran around taking photos while David of Broadway was running too. Actually he was running because he left his jacket on one of the trains. A little after 3 PM, the worst part of the day happened, a train was stuck dead in the water as we heard from the scanner that there is a power outage in the tube. The next set of trains had to wrong rail back down the south tube instead of heading around the north tube. (The entire PATH system is 100% reverse signaled.) Service was also briefly suspended as they asked all customers to use track #4 when the trains wrong railed back, a train on track #3 was taken OOS.
But after an hour of hanging with Pigs, McDonald, his father, and a guest, I packed it in and headed back home by using the ramp to the Downtown W/R platform for my train rides back to Brooklyn. It sure was a day I can tell my family about for years to come.
Does anyone have a track diagram of the Temporary Track Layout===
Thanks
Steve
steve
http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/path/path-wtc.html
Thank you for the mention, but my last name is Fein, not Feinman. In all the happy confusion, it was hard to tell who was who. (There IS another Subtalk regular, Mark Feinman, who apparently was nowhere to be seen at this weekend's festivities.)
Time constraints unfortunately prevented me from getting to the Jersey side in time to ride the first train into WTC, but it was still a rush seeing the train approach the terminal through broad daylight. Several hours later, when I rode into the terminal (after riding to Newark and checking out the new HBLR extension), the novelty must've worn off. Most people in the front car didn't seem to care or notice, except a few at the railfan window.
Nope, I was not there.
--Mark
It sounded like Kings Hwy interlocking was in local control, you heard calls to the highway clearly on the radio but could barely hear DeKalb, the Beach or Control. Its know that radio transmitions around Kings Hwy is terrible. The Kings Hwy PA system is routinly used to give orders to the crews.
The Highway was turning trains off of both 1 and 3 track. Very intresting to observe, they would allow both Q's on 1 and 3 to pull through the interlocking and the first T/O to walk north and call got the lineup. I wish I had my camera to catch the Local Q going through the whole ladder from 1 to 2 track, wow!!
So anyone have any info?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
And try not to stand under a light pole :)
(Then again, ever since word got out, they've gotten more and more annoying about it. I don't know what time they start or what sort of police presence there is these days.)
God Bless the UWS.
72nd St (C)
Columbus Circle (1ACD)
50th St (1)
Times Square (1237ACEQRWS)
34th St (DFRQW)
Robert
The presenter was Bill Armstrong a noted transit historian and photographer. The bulk of his slide collection consisted of b&w shots of the 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue Elevated lines while they were still in operation (Gibbs cars and composites running in service). In keeping with the same era, Bill also covered 3rd Avenue Railway (trolley ops) in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. As well, there was some coverage of Yonkers trolley operations.
Bill later introduced the audience to his Ektachrome slides (color) of the PCC cars of various municipalities (Philadelphia, and D.C.).
SubTalkers in attendance (those I was able to recognize) included: Jeff H., Bill Newkirk, RIPTA42HopeTunnel, Mark W., Lincoln, Westcode44, Joe Siatta, Far Rockaway A Train, and a rare public appearance by the Transit Observer.
Hopefully, great shows like this one will be repeated at some point.
Nope, they moved towntown to College of Ins. 101 Murry St, right next to the WTC hole in the ground.
Be damned. You know, I remember going to a meeting or two there when I worked nights on Cedar Street. Around 1997 or so. I like the (what I considered) futuristic landscape of that stretch of the lower West Side. It sure was a distinctively different looking scene only a few blocks north of Cedar. I was right across from that Greek Orthodox church. Down there, you get (or got...) a real feeling for the original city limits. The newer buildings, I felt, were a real good design. And I like how they seemed to fit together well. Always liked how all that concentration of buildings looked if you took a walk down West Street. I swear, in my mind it was like arriving at The City of Oz. The W.T.C. of course as the central point to it all.
Son of a bitch.
: = eyes
What is the maximum difference in tread thickness for 2 wheels on the same axle for a passenger car or rail transit car? Please provide a source if possible. (I've been told 0.080 inches but I can't verify this number)
If you politely inquire of one of the yards, or send a note to the Dept of Subways, I am sure someone would get back to you with an answer.
Not sure if this section applies:
Sec. 229.73 Wheel sets.
(b) The maximum variation in the diameter between any two wheel sets in a three-powered-axle truck may not exceed \3/4\ inch, except that when shims are used at the journal box springs to compensate for wheel diameter variation, the maximum variation may not exceed 1\1/4\ inch. The maximum variation in the diameter between any two wheel sets on different trucks on a locomotive that has three-powered-axle trucks may not exceed 1\1/4\ inch. The diameter of a wheel set is the average diameter of the two wheels on an axle.
AEM7
Here's your answer:
(a) The variation in the circumference of wheels on the same axle may not exceed \1/4\ inch (two tape sizes) when applied or turned. (49 CFR 229, Section 73)
AEM7
AEM7
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfrv4_99.html
correct me if I'm wrong
I woulda thunk they would run 5+5+1
or maybe 5+1+5
Elias
Besides, Corona doesn't have enough cars to make all the trains as 5-5-1 or 5-1-5, anyway.
I'll have to examine these the next time I come to the city.
Elias
Has anyone seen this new item? Does it look anything like New York's famous Jahn's, or did MTH merely put the Jahn's name on one of the already issued MTH generic buildings?
Is the Richmond Hill location still at the west end of Hillside Ave?
Would love to go there if they have sugar-free ice cream !!!!
If they had sugar free ice cream and other stuff to go with it,
I'd treat the family to a kitchen sink this thursday!
Even if I have to eat it all!
I hope to see the MTH model this weekend but I suspect that MTH has simply put the Jahn's name on one of their basic buildings.
My first glance did not make me, as a non-model train layout person, want to rush out and buy (or bid on it) to display it as a stand alone item.
Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the seller or MTH or the Jahn family - just loved their ice cream.
It is a shame that they couldn't have done something more authentic. I have some great 1950 era memories of Jahn's, and this could have been a great addition to my O gauge layout.
The stores I remember :
Richmond Hill - discussed above
Jackson Heights - in a row of stores.
Flushing - in a row of stores down a few doors from a movie house.
Springfield Blvd & LIE - in a row of stores
Rego Park - discussed above.
Church Ave - in a row of stores
Ave X (I think) & Nostrand - not sure but seem to think a row of stores.
Fordham Road - row of stores.
Lake Success & Hillside Avenue - In a shopping center row of stores.
East Meadow - Next to a roller rink, one story building.
That is a total of 10 stores. Did I miss any ?
jahn.com takes you a site for e-mail addresses (name@jahns.com). Didn't stay.
www.Jahn's.com doesn't work at all. Rats!!!!!!!!!
It's down right now.
The web site you have requested may be experiencing technical difficulties due to a busy or broken server.
Please try again by clicking the Reload icon on your navigation bar or, if that doesn't work, you may want to return to the site at a later time.
502 Connection Hangup
DRAT!
Also, I think there was one in Staten Island, at the Mall, when it first opened. It wasn't there long.
--Mark
It was, when I was last there this past June 28th.
I was last in Jahn's in Richmond Hill on Saturday June 28 2003.
I was last in Jahn's on June 28, 2003. I asked if Frank Jahn was still alive, and was told that he had died several years ago. I don't know if this was Frank Jahn Sr. or Jr.
The BMT Jamaica el passes over the Montauk Branch LIRR one long block southeast of Jahn's at Jamaica Avenue and Lefferts Boulevard.
Thanks so much for posting that picture. I really forgot a lot of what the place looked like since it has been so many years.
Based on your picture I guess that MTH did not do a bad job imitating it with their 3 story factory model. They simply omitted the left hand doorway and six sets of shutters.
I really appreciate seeing the picture to jog my memory.
From what I remember from handling the MTH model on Saturday, I'm pretty sure that is the same building.
I called the dealer in hopes of getting another look at it, but it was sold yesterday, and he did not expect to get any more.
There is supposed to be one for sale on eBay. If I can find it I will post a link.
Looks the same, doesn't it?
The LIRR Montauk (LIC) Branch is still active, but Friday, March 13, 1998, was the last day of service for the Penny Bridge, Haberman, Fresh Pond, Glendale, and Richmond Hill stations on the Branch. Bob Andersen has some images of these stations on his LIRR site. I'm still looking for, but haven't yet found, a detailed virtual tour of the LIRR Montauk (LIC) Branch.
It is apparently not modeled after any particular Jahn's, but rather is a variation of the basic MTH three story factory building with Jahn's awnings and trim added.
Even though it does not look like Jahn's as I remember it, it still seems to be a quality product. It is prewired, and has at least six interior lights. We hooked jumper wires to it, and it has great illumination. The windows on all three floors are lighted. The first floor storefront is particularly attractive.
The MSRP is $59.95 but it should be able to be purchased at less than that. If I was not retired I would consider buying one myself. It would make a great addition to a model railroad layout. It is scaled for O gauge.
Yes.
Concorde was a rich man's plane and now they have to live life like the rest of us. heheheee
N Broadway Line
(bad joke).
AEM7
While driving on the Nassau Expressway north toward the Van Wyck, I used to see the Concorde approaching Kennedy Airport. It looked like nothing else in the sky.
Today's airplanes could use some modern touches. They basically use the same design as the early commerical jet planes used in the 1950's.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/140037p-124294c.html
I tried snapping a picture with the camera on my cell phone, but it was already moving too fast, and all I got was blur.
Heavy on the grape soda.
On a side note, I saw R62A #1979 on the 7 today. I'm talking about the TRAIN, not the person. :-)
--Mark
Sometime in the early 80s, before GOH, the R-32s got their front destination curtains back, but in the same Helvetica graphics found on the Redbirds. At the same time, they received new front route curtains in the original route slot, once again in the same style as used on the Redbirds and R-27/30s.
I personally didn't care for the destination signs going away and had a gut feeling that one day the R-32s would once again have front destination signs. When I came back to the city in 1984 after a four-year absence, I saw and rode on several R-32 trains (a Q and a D, among others) that had these new signs. Too bad they weren't retained after GOH.
--Mark
The permanent terminal is still in the future. Perhaps you'd like to weigh in with the PA and Silverstein as to how you think it should look. You're as entitled as anyone else to send in your opinion.
You can pay for PATH with a metrocard? This is news to me! Glad to hear this. Does it work with Unlimited Ride cards?
From the opening of the IND in 1932 until the opening of the Concourse line in 1933: 168th Street-Hudston Terminal, all times.
1933-1940: No AA train
1940 (opening of 6th Avenue subway)-1976: Same as above, but all times EXCEPT rush hours.
1976-1985: Night service ended and replaced with a local A on account of budget cuts
1985-1988: Double letters eliminated, renamed K.
1988: Eliminated completely, replaced with expanded B and C service.
IIRC it was in 1977 that the AA stopped running at night and A trains made all local stops. The same thing happened to the F. During late nights, the GG was cut back to Queens Plaza and F trains made all local stops in Queens.
It seems to me it would be a perfect home for one of its train sets to be covered by museum cars. One Triplex or 2 R-9s would fit nicely. It would be an excuse to fix up 2390-1-2.
Anyone with a favorite but little-used car knows you have to get it out of the garage and run it every now-and-then or it may not run at all when you want it. How about subway cars.
Of course, only the Triplex would be able to run OPTO at present, and I can think of all kinds of reasons it would never happen, but it's a nice fantasy!
Vandalism on the Franklin Shuttle isn't any worse than on other lines, as far as I know.
Another idea. In keeping with the history of oddballs on the FS, how about using the R-110Bs? A couple of three-car sets would work well, and if the third set could be repaired, there would be a spare.
As long as we're fantasizing, lets get crazy. How about the R-110As with gap-filling strips, like the Lo-Vs had when they ran on the BMT ;-))
Regards,
Jimmy :)
I see you're envious of his high rate of accuracy compared to yours.
It's worth $2 now :).
I salute Jessica Ettinger!
I spent a few hours on the 6 line looking for those "____ NEXT" trains.
"This is a Pelham Bay Park-bound. (6) Local train."
Since when has any Norman Foster building been nice?
Stansted as well as being extremely inconveniently located is also one of the ugliest buildings in Britain.
It is intended as a temporary station until something permanent is constructed - at the time planning for it started, nothing had been decided about what would be done with the site (and little progress has been made on that front), so very little was done in the way of design frills. The photographs and quotes on the walls are an attempt to make it less bleak.
The smell in the tunnels is from the freshly-cured concrete. It will dissipate after a while.
It will doubtlessly be replaced by the "PATH smell" :)
I was specifically looking for the "____ NEXT" trains (as opposed to "THE NEXT STOP IS" trains), and I recorded mostly from those. I waited at Castle Hill Avenue for a while, and I saw a northbound express train pass by on the middle track. A few minutes later, the northbound local stopped there. As I was on the train, I saw a southbound express train pass by on the middle track. I spent a couple of hours on the Bronx portion of the 6 line. One of the cars I was on (#7273) thought that it was a northbound Pelham Bay Park local train at 28th Street.
I then went back to 125th Street and got on a northbound 5. An interesting thing about this 5 train. The lead car was #6540. As you might have guessed, the train was from the 2 line.
QUESTION: Why, when a train with strip maps from the 2 line is used on the 5 line, do the lights on the strip map light up (as if a strip map from the 5 line is installed), instead of having the "Map not in use" sign light up? Before the train entered 149-G.C., the lights that were lit were for the following stops: Times Square, 72nd Street, Jackson Avenue, Intervale Avenue, Freeman Street, 174 St, and West Farms Square.
Also, there was something interesting on this train. It had a more relaxing female voice. I don't know who recorded it, but it was better than the regular voices. This was one of those "____ NEXT" trains also. I recorded announcements for the line up to Dyre. But there was something else interesting about this trip. After 3rd Avenue, the announcements said that the next stop would be East 180th Street. The train went up the express track all the way...past Freeman Street! The train then stopped at 174th Street and West Farms Square.
On the way back to East 180 from Dyre, on a different train, at Baychester, I heard this announcement:
>>Annoying female voice: THIS IS A MANHATTAN-BOUND 5 TRAIN. TH--
>>Charlie Pellett: STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS--
[DIN-DONG...DING-DONG]
[DOORS CLOSE]
>>Annoying female voice: THE NEXT STOP IS...GUN HILL ROAD.
Once back at East 180, I got on a northbound 2 train and took it to Wakefield. The train was stopped for a few minutes at 225th Street, causing the train to bypass all stops to Wakefield, then bypass all stops between Gun Hill Road and East 180th on the way back.
After that, everything went quite normally. I got on the 7 train at Times Square and headed home.
If you need help, lemme know!
By the way: How come they didn't install sliding "strip maps" on the trains? I've seen a light rail system operator do that here. They can now use the cars on each line. The map is printed on the back side of the outside roll signs, and the lights to indicate the stations are controlled by the computer system that also triggers the auto announcements.
Guess it's too late now for that.
if you can post them that would be great
Also, I don't know where I could post such a large file, even if the resulting file is a couple of megabytes, I don't know of a place that could host it. I'll keep everyone up to date with the resulting file's size, and go from there. You'll find out next week, because that'd be the earliest that I could do it.
As far as people talking, that's what I try to avoid when I do recordings. If there are few people in a car, and they're quiet, then it's a go for me.
Things I try to avoid when doing recordings:
young children, plastic and paper bags, and newspapers. They're almost always noisy.
The lights are based on what route the C/R selects not what sign is installed. So you are correct when you say the 5 line stops will light up even though the strip map is for the 2 line.
I believe that having "Map not in use" light up will somehow prevent the automatic announcements and LED display on the indise to operate properly.
It was reported here a while back that the TA is experimenting with LCD signs for the strip maps rather than printed ones. They were using a couple of R143 cars. There is no word as to how the experiment is going.
Click on it to see the full-sized version.
As for the LCD signs for the strip maps, I've heard rumors that that's what will be on the R160's.
Did you use the speaker by the end doors, along the walls or inside the A/C, to record announcements on the 6?
On the Bombardier cars, I use either the speaker that's immediately behind the cab door, or one of the two at the end of the car.
The almost unavoidable drone of the HVAC on the R142 has annoyed me to the point where I am about to test whether or not it is feaseable to record from the speakers along the center of the ceiling in betweeen LED signs.
174th Street station.
And now some bad news for the IRT weekend MOD trips, we cannot go into 238th st yard because a G.O. affects the #2 line from East 180th st to Wakefield-241st st and shuttle buses will replace train service that weekend.
So if the reconstruction was done the old-fashioned way, it would've taken as much as 9 months to a year to build these mezzanines instead of the 3 months it took to rebuild with the new construction method.
I'd make the trot south.
Thanks.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Is the Hudson Terminal station, in fact, still intact? If it is it would make a great place to visit, if a tour could be arranged.
I remember using it quite regularly in the late 60s, and purposely used it on its last day of service (I believe that was in 1971). The next day (a Saturday as I recall) I used the WTC stationon its first day. Wish I could have done the same last weekend for the new WTC station, but being 600 miles away, and having to work, prevented me from making the trek upto to the city.
From what I believe I've read and heard, the hollow space where Hudson Terminal resided was converted into trucks loading docks. In my opinion, that means that the terminal was gutted, leaving a large empty room. As far as I know, that large empty room still exists, as it was probably not damaged on 9/11. And can anyone confirm that Hudson Terminal was inbetween Greenwich and Church Streets? If it was, then it is 2 levels below the surface of the Ground Zero viewing wall along Church Street (take the 1/9 to be level one down).
If it is it would make a great place to visit, if a tour could be arranged.
For years I have yearned to visit the location of Hudson Terminal. If someone could make it happen, that would be fantastic.
Controller type - reverers differ.
Brake handles also vary, depending on brake stand model.
It's general policy at Branford to use what comes with our equipment. If the keys/handles isn't designed for that particular equipment nor is it approved by the Vehicle Collection Manager, you don't use it.
-Stef
A bitter fella aren't you?
-Stef
If I am mistaken, then I apologize.
-Stef
You're a funny guy.
-Stef
And yes, I'm a funny guy, but not in *that* kinda way. Moo. :)
Nothing wrong with having collectibles provided it doesn't do any harm....
Regards,
Stef
I *did* use my set at Branford though - fit nicely, worked great. Nice to have a brake handle that's still got the teat intact. I'm sure you know what happens to the bottom of those cast iron monsters with use. Mine even has the original holes through it so it can double as a hash pipe, and the "butt plug" is the genuine back hard rubber and brass, not those horrible brown fiber thingies the TA bought in 1970. Heh.
Unfortunately I never was given an opportunity to use my tools at Branford...........
Not bitter, just a lot of regret.
Heh. I *heard* the great news, but c'mon boobe ... Branford just AIN'T right without the fog and the schpritz. Just ain't NATURAL without it. Heh. Like I said, only thing I'm missing is my old cutting key ... give Unca Elkirk a stiffie without having to be "embarassed." SEE how my method works? :)
Plus you got a kick out of working the levers on the R-16s once, right?:)
And yeah, it was fun playing with it. Wish I could have done a SMEE trip for old times sake, but the weather didn't cooperate that day and she had to go in out of the wet. I *did* want to hear the bingbong though that had been so elaborately setup there just for the chuckle.
It would have been interesting to hear those door chimes, too, even thought they were out of place on an R-17.
But yeah, the bad boys at the museum weren't about to let us in on the trick - nobody told me about that little hidden chromium switch there. I was also hoping to set off the wheel detector, but that too was dormant that day. Had to settle for normal and traditional operations. That was OK too.
My "doctor's bag" was heavy with all the stuff we had to carry (we even had to carry, but I never used, "Q-car" handles) but if I'm not completely losing it, they didn't want you using the Arnine handles on the 27/30's and 32's ... those seemed to be the same issue as A division, and smaller than the Arnine stuff.
When should I hand in my dues for 2004 at Seashore?
-Stef
I see it's 2am where you are. It's 4pm Wednesday where I am :-) Changing planes in Tokyo on the way home from Bangkok. Full rail news report to follow.
-Stef
The trolley operator training sessions are on Saturdays in March 2004. That's bad for Orthodox Jews like me. So what am I supposed to do? Can I get private lessons? I badly want to operate at Branford. And I haven't gotten an answer out of anyone about how one becomes a "hostler" as mentioned on the website. Since it isn't revenue service, does a hostler trainee need to go through the whole 5 Saturday training program? If not, then I would be happy to spend the day doing hostling duties. I just want to operate! Someone, please help. Thanks.
So the question comes down to what I *assume* you're into - a little handle time just so you can do it. If that's the case, then things can be arranged for Sundays, but the actual training schedule for "qualified public operator" is unfortunately limited to when the classes are. There's a lot involved, and the time to do it is limited unfortunately to the schedules of those who do the training. Just thought I'd throw this option out since I suspect all you REALLY want is a little "handle time" ...
-Stef
So it comes down to this: If my paying $35 per year is only gonna get me one one-way trip of handle time per year, then it just isn't worth it to pay the money and make more than one trip up to Branford. Riding the trolley and rapid transit cars is fun, but the beauty of Branford is that regular people can operate trolleys and subway cars!
So say that after becoming qualified to operate (however they may happen), I come up to Branford on 4 Sundays. Ideally, I'd like to spend part of each sunday operating and the other part working on whatever work is being done around the museum (hopefully that would justify my not being on a regular operating schedule).
Anyhow, I will try talking to the appropriate officers. I just thought that since Stef threw out a Branford question, I would get this off my chest too.
It's entirely up to you if you want to pay the dues. But consider this: it's going to a good cause.....
-Stef
To Ronald ... geez, GET a handle, bro ... Disneyburgers *AIN'T* kosher, I don't think steam to 600 degrees would do it, nor flames of "nukular" origin would satisfy Bedikat Hametz and kashering to lose the chometz ... come out and play on Saturday, you "heethen," yer going to hell anyway ... heh.
There's a charge for "leasing" where handles are available, but of course since the museum NEEDS to have some attraction for new members, they get first crack at it when signing up. Pick your visits more carefully. :)
Back when I was last down there, Nancy and I paid through the tuchus and paid a LOT extra for the day in hopes of a bit more handle time for ourselves (really wanted to get "bingbong" the feel for running trains herself so she'd understand my psychosis a bit better and it *WORKED!* I *got* some that night, heh) ... but the whole thing was a mitzvah for me - it'd been 30 years since I'd last run an arnine - it was sweet - but I sure wouldn't expect handle time out the wazoo, but the more time you SPEND there, the better the chances of managing to catch that "idle time" where you COULD take a trip or two ... just a matter of luck.
What nobody realizes is that subway cars eat a ***LOT*** of power. Branford is on "demand metering" which means they pay their "flat rate" based on PEAK usage. 1689 is probably the hungriest thing they have there with 6688 a runner-up. It's INCREDIBLY expensive for Branford to allow an RT car to take ONE round trip - a KILLER for two. The expense of ALLOWING people to run them at all is an enticement to joing the museum ... I suspect that if you showed up with a $500 bill in hand, you could probably for 3 round trips with WAA and an early quit. But that's the reality that Branford's IN to attract new members. Bring a KILOBUCK and Unca Thurston might drive you around town in a BUS when you're too tired to pull a service application anymore! :)
My point though, is that Branford LOSES money on subway car rides ... the cost of electricity is *THAT* insane ... Saturdays, they're off the meter, so it's STILL expensive, but trust me, the RT cars don't MOVE on weekdays. Period. Don't be discouraged though, there ARE ways to get that handle time again ... and just so's ya know - the TROLLEYS work pretty much the same way. With single car RT operation, at best TWO cars, the subway cars are relegated to being "high platform trolleys" ... you might really get a KICK out of running the trolleys too. But sounds like you need a oneway in 6688 ... I'm sure with your continued devotion to Branford, someone can swing it for ya ...
But MAN ... if you wanna become a "real operator" and be available for that "extra extra board phone call", mazel tov! Even if it's trolleys, once you qualify, you'll be doing round trips all day! And as much as I love my arnine there, I'd like to get me some handle time on the LoV (5466) since it's pretty much the SAME as 1689 is ... but what I *really* want to do is run some trolleys ... NEVER did THAT! :)
If you've found that something's consistently bad and there's nothing on the horizon indicating that things are going to improve in the forseeable future, there definitely comes a point where one is well within their right to give up and walk away. This is a philosophy that I apply to everything, not just trolley museums, and it's served me well in terms of providing guidance on when it's time to leave situations that are just stuck in long term, and even indefinite ruts.
-Robert King
Ah Steve, you can still do it at BERA like I did even if the other car coupled to the R-9 is a Low-V!!!
Only the shop guys get away with no "offical headgear", but they don't play with the equipment. They just bang us for braking it.
I'm tempted to say just don't bother with trolley museums and save yourself a nervegrinding experience except there are a few people out there that don't encounter any problems with them and I suppose it is possible you could get lucky - witness the one way trip (what was it on?) that you did get afterall.
-Robert King
Some of us get a great deal of pleasure out of restoring trolleys & rapid transit cars without operating them, e.g. just ask FLASH when was the last time he had any handle time. Last week I was fixing a rail joint & setting up ties for some new track. Later this winter I'll be mending a barn door who's top got carried away on a recent windy day.
You have to remove the two instances of "NOSPAM" from my email address.
Ah, Stef didn't throw out a Branford question, he was asking Todd about the dues at Seashore, not Shoreline. That's the museum in Kennebunkport Maine!! That's where Todd is active.
But to get back to your question, BERA in the past has worked around people's scheduling problems and HAS given private lessons. I'm sure they can work something out for you. Especially since they can always use operators. By the way, the operators course is more than just operating. An operator also is a tour guide and that is part of the operator's course.
Another way to get handle time is to volunteer a lot working on cars. I admit almost all of my hours have been operating but I do plan on doing other work too, especially during the winter months when the museum is open.
The R-17 has been limited to fair weather the past few
years because of the painting. Now that it is complete,
it should be available more often. We did not use it on
Members' Day this year because of the rain. It was used on
the final subway weekend only. You could have signed up to
operate that day.
Dues are $30 per year, not $35, for regular membership, which
is the category for those who wish to hold qualification.
The minimum dues level is $15 per year for Associate.
We can make other arrangements for training. We've had a few
shabbos observers as operators. Because it is a special
accommodation, we'd like a committment that you'll be willing
to actually work as an operator after completing training,
which means running trolley cars and giving tours. Many people
take the training class just to learn to run cars but for whatever
reason don't ever operate. If they take the regular class, they
aren't consuming much in terms of additional resources, but to
train someone outside of the class requires an instructor to
commit some time.
I was not aware that there was a sign up sheet.
Because it is a special
accommodation, we'd like a committment that you'll be willing
to actually work as an operator after completing training,
which means running trolley cars and giving tours.
What kind of a commitment are we talking about here?
Did you ask?
What kind of a commitment are we talking about here?
That, in addition to your training days, you'll operate at least
4 or 5 days during the whole season.
A 4 or 5 day commitment seams reasonable.
Brian:
The words "commitment" and "reasonable" make it sound like a chore. It really isn't. I haven't been able to operate the last month and a half because of my family problems of taking care of a newborn with my wife still in the hospital but I really miss it. When I explain to people that I travel 90 miles each way to work an 8 hour shift for no pay they think I'm crazy. But it really is fun. And the people at Branford are really great. It's like a big family. You also get to know the regular customers such as Tunnel Rat (76th Street) Steve, Joe (V-Train) Headlights, and a number of others. My son plays with the Kennedy (I think that's their name) kids across the street. And you get to operate vintage antique streetcars!!
I used to hate the tour guide part. But even that is fun now. Everyone has their own spiel. I love to show 500 and talk about the 2 Boucher weddings 90 years apart and also talk about the open cars going to the Yale Bowl. You do get once in a while a railfan that tries to stump you with questions but that ain't too bad either anymore. And at least once each shift you get a flirting female on your tour that makes the day really worth it!! (Of course, just to look, I am happily married you know)
I am looking forward to the Santa days next month.
P.S. In case nobody noticed, since every post on this thread except Mark W's first post is about Branford I changed the subject from "re:Seashore" to "re:Shoreline".
And yes, I wouldn't be so thrilled about the tour guide part, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
I've had some bad experiences with Santa in the past, so next year at this time, I won't be saying what you said.
You'd be surprised. The fact that you have an informational transit website and like to discuss transit on this board shows you might actually learn to enjoy the tour part. Most people operate just to get the chance to operate the cars and hate the tour part at first but after a while they get to enjoy it.
There are many regular operators in your situation. They have made friends & most times find that they can get a lift, but you would need to be prepaired to use public transportation some times.
e.g. Saturday I brought a fellow operator, but it was a one way offer since I continued north to see my mom.
>>The trolley operator training sessions are on Saturdays in March 2004. That's bad for Orthodox Jews like me. So what am I supposed to do? Can I get private lessons? I badly want to operate at Branford.
You should be able to make alternate arrangements with Museum to receive your training on days other than a Sat.
>>And I haven't gotten an answer out of anyone about how one becomes a "hostler" as mentioned on the website. Since it isn't revenue service, does a hostler trainee need to go through the whole 5 Saturday training program?
All persons generally go through the full training course, as one needs to get familiar with the chracteristics of the operating cars and that of the railway. You would take a written test as well as a road test, demonstrate your proficiency as an Operator, and VOILA, you become qualified. If you go through the formal process, you will be able to perform hostling duties provided that you're qualified on the car in question.
Jeff H. should probably chime in here and make additional comments or corrections to anything I have said.
Hope this helps,
Stef
Seashore's instructors are also available for one-on-one lessons most days of the week (by appointment, and more so during the summer than the spring) for those who for whatever reason can't some on Saturdays.
-Stef
I was talking about Shoreline/Branford. But thanks for the info about Seashore's Sunday training. I guess that would be much more feasible if I had a car, which I don't. At least Branford is only an MNR ride away.
-Stef
In all seriousness though, Branford, because of what it's got and its proximity to "Fun City" is probably the best show in town until KINGSTON, NY can get some contributions and volunteers as well - there's an Arnine there, Q car, PATH "black car" and a ready to roll and almost restored ARRRR-16! BMT "stretch redbird" ...
But as the "trolley generation" dies off (PLEASE no offense intended in ANY way, but museums MUST be obligated to the future or they themselves die), those of us who visit them strictly for RT equipment (RT=Rapid Transit, so don't send me email, heh) need to start kicking in cash in order that these relics of *OUR* past continue to have a home, continue to be maintained, and IN PARTICULAR, ***RUN*** ... "on the juice," on REAL track, with TRAINED operators ... it's our "tzedaka" ... so stop kvetching ... it's OUR heritage as "foamers." :)
BTW, I'm an instructor at BERA both Trolley and RT.
In Thailand, most businessmen are called by a title then first name. So for the past week, most people have called me "Mr. Todd."
Uh oh, thread drift.
The key sentences from that reply:
In addition, we train new volunteer streetcar operators every March, and again special arrangements can usually be made to train newbies who for whatever reason cannot attend the regular training sessions.
Any further questions email me, Sparky, Lou, or our training director Jeff Hakner and we'll try to answer.
Being a fully qualified streetcar operator is a prerequisite to any kind of RT operation, other than under the auspices of the "guest operator" program or Member's Day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The key sentences from that reply:
In addition, we train new volunteer streetcar operators every March, and again special arrangements can usually be made to train newbies who for whatever reason cannot attend the regular training sessions.
Any further questions email me, Sparky, Lou, or our training director Jeff Hakner and we'll try to answer.
Being a fully qualified streetcar operator is a prerequisite to any kind of RT operation, other than under the auspices of the "guest operator" program or Member's Day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good luck everyone. May the protest answers begin, LOL.
WOW!!!
P.S. IF ANY OF U GOT ABOUT 85 OR ABOVE, DONT LOSE HEART. ANYONE CAN BE CALLED. AFTER ALL, THEY ARE GONNA HAVE ALOT OF OPENINGS ACCORDING TO A TSS ON THE E I SPOKE TO. i also know that there is a TSS exam coming soon, and MANY operators retiring. so i speak to you all, see u all next year as a Train operator in school car!!!
Dave
-Nick
Dave
The operative word in your statement is "was".
When I started with the TA in 1993, a T/O was doing a minimum of 3 years on the extra extra list. Over time due to retirements, promotions, etc., it went down to as little as 15 months in 1999.
NOW however, because the retirements have come just about to an abrupt halt, 3 years on the XXL for new hires would be a reasonable estimate considering that there are current T/O's with 2 years in title who cannot pick a job yet (at least in the B division).
You'll enjoy the job once you get it, but don't even think that you'll see some stability any time soon. Make sure your car is in good condition. And if you don't have one, get one. Because there's nothing like fighting the GO's to go home after a 9 or 10 hour shift.
A tremendous number of TSS' were hired off that list and there are not that many of them to retire.
Around 2009 there will be a mini exodus and again in 2012 a mass exodus.
An E line TSS told you this because 3 of them are near retirement but E is for elephant and thats where the old TSS' go before the TSS' graveyard.
Chuck Greene
But except for another two, it was speed all the way. Even I was impressed.
Chuck Greene
I got three wrong, two of the wrong answers I am protesting. Since the same test was used a question overturned on one exam will effect both exams.
DCAS when accepting a protest of a question has many choices, they can throw out their answer and accept the protest answer, they can accept both answers and they can throw out the entire question. All of which can change your score up or down.
Don't forget Veteran Credit for up to 10 points additional.
DCAS has also been known to call from both an Promotional List and an O/C list when there are not enough qualified prospects. This can happen for this title because people can be called and then not past their medical. Saftey titles have a large turn over because people can't past the medical.
All up to the TA and DCAS.
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And yeah, I worked for the Public Service Commission and have an engineering background myself. I know the TRUTH about alpha particles and how they're stopped by tissue paper and from there up to plasmas and the REAL radiation dangers. Even know about "atmospheric attenuation" and blast cones. :)
Operated an in-service 3 train to 149/Grand Concourse;
Operated an in-service Q train via 4th Ave and Sea Beach to 86 St;
Operated an in-service B train to W. 4 St via the Sixth Ave local
and not had any problems - other than really upset passengers.
Operated an F train over the Broadway R line to DeKalb Av and then via the West End to Coney Island.
Operated an A (and a C) train to Parsons/Archer E.
Operated a D train to Euclid Av
Operated a G and R via 6th Ave
Have made numerous reroutes on the M.
I still remember when I got called into the TA as a C/R. I scored an 88 on the test and wound up being number 4001 on the combined Bus Operator/Conductor test. Don't ask me how they made it all the way to 4001, but I am sure very happy that they did!
"Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"
Are the answers to some of the questions that vague??
Just trying to wrap my brain around this and having a difficult time with it...
LAWYERS write these things, LAWYERS fix them. SHOULD be interesting how the results turn out. I have YET to meet a lawyer who KNOWS how many pounds a reduction at 40 MPH requires, and is willing to state it FOR the record. :)
Best of luck to you in school car in 2004 or 2005.
Incognito
The West Farms Kid
--Z--
--Z--
Then, in the mid-1960's some more R-17's went to the Flushing Line, as well as some R26/28's. They could be easily spotted as they did not have the usual roll signs -- they had white stickers on the destination signs with black lettering. The end signs said "Times Square-Main Street" all on one sticker,no changing signs from end to end. This situation didn't last long either, cars went back to the mainline IRT quickly.
Regards,
Jimmy
What's a good line you recommend I railfan and maybe make a stop or two along the way -- I was thinking about doing the entire W line out to Coney Island (as I haven't been there yet). Any good trains I could ride that are in safe areas -- railfan window is a plus (other than the 7... it's been done -- many times).
On the nearby N you'll have no trouble getting a railfan window, but the Sea Beach is entirely below grade, in an open cut. I think it's quite scenic, but it's better saved for daytime. And, of course, it doesn't run through to Coney Island, if that's specifically where you're trying to go.
The diamond-Q has railfan windows, but it may not run when you plan on going out, and, again, it's prettier in daylight. (Lately I've been riding it around sunrise and sunset every day -- just perfect!)
Railfan windows on the F are hard to come by, but the southbound platform at Smith-9th is a phenomenal place to stop at night.
I always enjoy the J and M, but they may make you nervous at night. I'd say that they're perfectly safe, especially if you stay on the train (or transfer at Broadway Junction).
There's the A out to the Rockaways, if you can put up with the long headways. Over half of the trains tend to be R-44 sets, and (approximately) alternate trains go to Lefferts, so the wait for a railfan window can easily be over an hour. And it's a long ride once the train comes, too.
If you're willing to peer through the small window into the T/O's cab, the 1/9 up to 242nd is one of my favorites. It's a short, quick ride with lots and lots of variety. See if you can spot the only three-track bored tube in the system! (It's only a few blocks long.)
I'd join you, but I have to write an exam tonight. Maybe some other night.
Thats because you're a "target" in those areas lol
This Is What I Live For...
Tube...Tube... Hmm..
I'll wager a McChicken...
The portal coming out nb from Columbia University, methinks??
1Stumped9
Thanks a lot for killing the suspense.
If you're really adventurous, how about PATH to HBLR or NCS?
Nov 25, 2003 5:11 pm US/Eastern
The State Street MBTA station is back open, after being evacuated because of fumes.
Apparently, some sort of "stink bomb" may have been set off on one of the trains, and the evacuation was just a precaution.
This is having a big effect on the entire Blue line, all Blue line trains running into Boston are being delayed.
The Blue line runs to Logan airport, so people looking to get out of town for the holiday weekend are being delayed.
We are also hearing the train went on to the orient heights station in east Boston, and emergency crews may be checking out people there.
(report by WBZ-TV4)
Anyway, it was funny seeing people walk in then immediatly walk out of them. Amazing what science can cram into a tiny vial...
A eastbound train was slowly creeping into the station, a lot slower than usual. I drove around the block and went around one of the grades, then passed the station from the north side and noticed there were two different trains on the eastbound track.
I didn't get to stick around to see what was up, so does anyone know the scoop? Did one of the trains stall or something?
In a word.....LIPA
Just a guess, though...
Adam
Dave
Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Possibly some employee shuttles too.
By the way, did you guys see the recent article about the possibility that Jamaica Buses, Command Bus Lines and one or two other carriers will shut down express bus services because (they claim) they haven't received proper payment from the city? And MTA doesn't want them, apparently.
Thanks
Steve Loitsch
http://community.webshots.com/user/3rdavery
I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Robert. I'm 8 years old. I look forward to seeing the new World Trade Center PATH station. My dad was there on Sunday, opening day. We'll both go on Friday. I hear it's really nice.
I've always liked to ride PATH because I can pretend to drive it. The ride is very exciting, with the fast tunnels and the long ride outside. I also like how the engineer blows his horn when we come out of the tunnel.
I'm glad you like PATH trains. They are very nice trains. I have ridden PATH in the past, and am glad that PATH service has come back. Look at this area for pictures and other good PATH information: http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/path/index.html
"Jersey Mike" is very knowledgable about PATH.
Jersey Mike, where are you? Would you like to offer this young man some of your thoughts on PATH?
Enjoy subtalk!
If so, what's it like?
How far in advance can you purcahse tickets?
Do they have restrooms?
How easy is it to make the switch at Trenton?
I'm making the trip on Saturday morning and expect the trains to be packed if people know how to do it, seeing as Amtrak trains from NYP to Philadelphia are almost all sold out while I'll be going.
The switch at Trenton is easy, usually on the same track.
It's a lonnnng trip. SEPTA never breaks 80MPH, and has no bathrooms.
Many times.
If so, what's it like?
Long and annoying, especially with PATCO. I now get dropped off at Hamilton.
How far in advance can you purcahse tickets?
Like 6 months or so they are good for I think. I believe that the NJT machines in Jersey have the ability to through ticket to Philly. The NJT TVM in 30th St also sells NJT tickets from Trenton to NYC.
Do they have restrooms?
NJT does, SEPTA does not.
How easy is it to make the switch at Trenton?
They usually put the trains on the same platform for an easy transfer. Occasionally they make you run through the concourse. If the connection is close the NJT C/R will usually not assess an onboard penalty, still, try to buy your NJT ticket at 30th St.
I'm making the trip on Saturday morning and expect the trains to be packed if people know how to do it, seeing as Amtrak trains from NYP to Philadelphia are almost all sold out while I'll be going.
It shouldn't be too bad on Saturday morning.
Regards,
Jimmy
It's a popular maneuver, and the trains do get crowded. I just did it this past weekend and might do it again Saturday or Sunday. It's $29.75 round trip off-peak; as Arrow III MU said, you can buy all four tickets at once from any NJT vending machine or window.
My mom hasn't been on the subway since that day.
There was even an alligator in the subway tunnels once..or twice..
--Mark
That didn't really relate directly to your rat post. You just got me thinkin' `bout Moms, I guess...
Shee. It. You're right, of course. I meant to say, last Saturday.
I'll have someone guess which Queens station it was.
Welcome to New York.
Well, tonight, I arrived on my essentially on-time Amtrak train 148 only to head up to the upper level, get on a train to CC then proceed to sit and wait for 20 minutes along with about 2 thousand other commuters as the dispatching computers crashed causing everything to grind to a hand and backing up trains all over the system.
Great going SEPTA, way to improve service there. I don't remember the old BROAD machine ever crashing...oh wait, that's right, it couldn't.
I don't think you've met my wife.
Good news. Version 3.5 of Tracks of the NYC Subway is finally done, printed and shipping if anybody's interested. Thanks to one and all who assisted in its compilation and research. Your help is greatly appreciated - thanks one and all.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
If you have version 3.4 I'd hold off until 3.6 when the bridge changes kick in. From 3.3 or earlier, it's worth the update.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
Chuck
More info (though the permit is good for three months, not one, and don't call that number).
Regards,
Jimmy
"I think the "B" line will be R40S/R40M because the older equipment will be on the part time line like the "B" itself."
These are the 2 most common arguments heard at the planning meetings.
Although I prefer the R-40's when I'm railfanning, the R-68(A)'s are better for writing lecture notes, and it looks like that's what I'll be doing every morning on the B, so I'm afraid I'll have to be a heretic and say that I'd prefer if the B got the R-68A's. But some variety would be nice -- I wouldn't mind at all seeing an R-40 once in a while.
They regularly ran on the B until 1997(?), when they were swapped to the Q. Even after that, they would occasionally show up on the B on weekends.
"Parents: Surfing on trains can be deadly. Please tell your kids the only safe ride is a ride inside"
"Parents: deadly train riding can be telling. Please surf your kids only on the inside."
That sounds *JUST* like MJ's metrocard.
So how about it? It's possible. Starts at Pier 11, then to Bay Ridge-Coney Island- then JFK. There is some waterway on the west side of the airport that gets pretty close to Airtrain. Put a new airtrain stop in and there ya go.
Regards,
Jimmy
The Delta Shuttle had ads for the ferry service in the shuttle gate areas and in various shuttle-related publications, and had clear signs pointing the way to the ferry landing for everyone arriving on a shuttle flight. It also offered miles for each ride on the ferry.
and it only went from pier 11. It didn't stop anywhere.
It stopped at E 34th and E 90th, and in its final days also at E 62nd, although this last one wasn't as well advertised. Few people used the intermediate stops, almost everyone got on and off at Pier 11. This makes sense since Pier 11 is the only one that's within easy walking distance of many offices (the primary market for the Delta Shuttle), and is far enough away from LGA that travel times could be competitive with taxis.
I would say Pier 11-Long Island City-LGA-Great Neck-Glen Cove. That should work, right?
The biggest market for any ferry service is Manhattan. People everywhere else are much more likely to have cars, and cab/car service fares and travel times from Queens and Long Island aren't such that people will readily take on the hassle of using public transportation when they have luggage and need to catch a flight. Also, I don't think there's any good places to land a ferry at Great Neck.
Also, did people even have a way of getting from the ferry terminal at LGA to the other airline terminals? Was there ever any airport bus connecting the terminals?
The ferry landing at LGA was in back of the Marine Air Terminal. There was and still is a free shuttle that operates from the front of that terminal connecting with the rest of LGA. It wasn't that long of a walk from the ferry through the terminal to the bus stop out front. However, since this is a bit of a nuisance, and since the ferry was funded by the Delta Shuttle and not anyone else at LGA, it was never advertised as a means of getting to/from the rest of LGA.
Also, Ferry trip times would definately be competitive with those of cabs to Glen Cove and Great Neck. Also, at Great Neck, I'm looking at the area of the Marine Merchant Academy or w/e that place is. Also, I'm looking into extending it to Stamford, Ct. Overall, I think it'd be the fastest route to any of these locations, and should be reinstated provided that there is adequate advertising. A few commercials, and the rest would be signs and posters at railroad stations, the airport, and some other places.
Thanks
London
Moscow
Chicago
San Francisco
Paris
Boston
Washington, D.C.
Tokyo
Thanks For Voting
74st Broadway:
...and lastly
LIRR Forest Hills Station:
Enjoy!
Dennis
Article on Potty Palooza
I came across this website which I find almost as compelling as Subtalk.
Poopreport.com
"I know this will cause you to think that I'm someone else again but what does this have to do with trains?"
Steve's use of the ambiguous word "this" leads me to believe that he is questioning the relevance of his own post. Only he can answer that question.
If on the other hand, he was questioning the relevance of my post, then I would hasten to point out that the gastrointestinal tract is an underground mass transit system, which performs many vital functions.
Sorry, couldnt resist!
Not until something is decided as to the WTC's replacement, as the station will be integrated into whatever's built. Building a temporary PATH station made sense because it was the only way to get PATH back to lower Manhattan without waiting years for the WTC replacement. The Cortlandt Street station is useful, but not necessary, and therefore it would be pointless to spend money on a temporary station.
Click here.
http://groups.msn.com/NYCSubwayMiscellany/shoebox.msnw
Thanks for the pix.
I find it amazing that it rolled that far at yard speed, but I'll leave my "public" comments there. For the sake of the "hostler" I hope they find a broken wheel.
I was wondering why the diesel/R12 combo were shuttling around some R32's this afternoon. Nobody at the office said anything. Usually, the excitement is when the garbage train shows up. We got railfans workin at the airline!
However, this is one of our (recent) more CREDIBLE members ... I *wish* I had involvement in the inquest ... I heard there was an 8 inch flat on the wheel ... "NOT guilcup" ... but the speed thing, THAT is a problem to me ... I've derailed PERSONALLY ... nothing like that though. Agreed though that it's a pity it got shown, but sadly, I *came* to subtalk to view *THAT* content personally. The ONLY thing I regret is that anything LIKE that causes insanity among the wigs, replete with retribution. :(
FWIW, if you backed off on his link, and checked out OTHER stuff, he had as non-emotionally involved (THIS buys him some forgiveness in MY eyes) group of Photos from the BERGEN ST fire, the "grounded shoe beam " which caused it all, and an equally dispassionate (clueless?) NON mal intent that I'm willing to cut him some "intention" slack here and chalk it up to "cluelessness" of what happened there by posting those. But the GOOD news is the wheels on the truck that derailed were 8 inch flats (according to what I read) and that's a "TS. buddy ... I go where I *want* ... 8 inch flats ARE serious. But community whiz ANWAYS. :(
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
Frank Hicks
Toronto 2898 has a very wide front door as well (and the exit door is bigger yet) but the center door cars, as built, had even wider openings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most of Chicago's PCC cars, which were ordered after WW II, had the triple entry doors in the rear, with a large rear platform so that passengers could board quickly at busy stops, then pay their fare as they passed the conductor's station on the left side of the car just ahead of the rear platform. These cars had single center and dual front exit door. See picture of lone survivor at the Illinois Railway Museum.
In later years, both the pre-WW II and post-WWI PCC cars were refitted for one person operation, and some of the doors were sealed.
-- Ed Sachs
A PCC is two sides, two ends and a roof. Weld it all together, and then hang everything off the body.
The PCC car was the only streetcar built without a frame. Pretty interesting for a car designed in the 1930's.
Hirchfield and his team designed a streetcar never seen before - or since.
Older cars have platforms supported by knees that attach to the carbody. Usually, lengths for older cars are always from corner post to corner post. Platforms are always excluded.
Platforms come in many sizes, it all depends on the length of the knees.
All 83 Blue Geese (the prewar PCCs) were converted to one-man operation in 1952. One center exit door was replaced with a body panel. IRM's 4021 survives in this state today.
As for the Green Hornets, conversions were more interesting. This is taken from Chicago Surface Lines: an Illustrated History.
4052-4061 - converted to one-man operation between May and September 1952. 4059-4061 were converted back to two-man operation in October of 1954. All ten were converted to optional one-man/two man operation in May and June of 1955.
7002-7034 - converted to one-man operation in 1952. None of these cars were sent back to St. Louis Car Co. for recycling into 6000-series cars.
7035-7044 - converted to optional one-man/two-man operation in 1952
7235-7259 - converted to optional one-man/two-man operation in 1955.
IRM's 4391 remained a two-man car until it was retired.
Frank Hicks
Double rear entrance doors, one center exit and double front exit doors, August 1940.
Double front entrance doors, double center and a single exit door (28 inches further forward from its original location), December 1940.
Triple rear entrance doors, single center and double front exit doors, early 1941.
Later in 1941, 4051 was restored to its original arrangement - triple front entrance, double center and single rear exit doors.
It's not at the level it was in the pre-David Gunn era, 1975-1984, but lots of cars are tagged, especially on the windows (paint and markers, not scratchiti)
I was under the impression that no tagged car would leave the yard until cleaned.
Has this policy been abandoned due to budget cuts?
I also noticed subway car exteriors are getting filthier. Somebody had drawn a peace sign in the flag on a W train yesterday; it showed up vividly on the grime.
www.forgotten-ny.com
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I thought the train wasn't supposed to leave the terminal in that condition.
Relax, folks! Just checked and *MY* pants are still dry. :)
But let's THINK about this all, won't we? CASPER, WYOMING has 15 more federally-funded "Vaderland Seichterheit" ('Fatherland Security' department, reporting DIRECTLY to Hitler) 'officers' patrolling the freightyards, keeping CASPER WYOMING safe from terrorists on THEIR rails while subway cars are getting tagged? Ummmmmmmm ... if ANYBODY can tag a car and NOT get nailed, then it might just as well be AFLAC, lost police confectioner's sugar donuts or an MBTA "stink bomb" if these phuckers can GET to a subway car for ***ANY*** reason. That can of spray could JUST as well be dousing the cars with AFLAC ... :(
What the *HELL* is Shrub, Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft *doing* if subway cars can get tagged *now*?!?!??!??!?? Where IS our "Homeland Security? If this is truly the case, I'd just yank the red cord and move out. Oh wait, already did. :(
And you know what? This makes me really laugh... the TA now has cops all over the place, and yet it's having the same problems as it did in the 1970s. If graffiti is rearing its ugly face once again, that means the city is headed for BIG TROUBLE. 8-(
If the TA can't clean up something like THIS due to poor funding, then I have a good reason TO believe that projects like the 2nd Ave Subway will NEVER get off the ground!
I think so. I was hoping it had happened enroute; guess not.
Taggers in stations should be made to clean up their mess (including the smudges between the tiles, which could be cleaned up with detergent and a tooth brush) and then be assigned to that station for a month and be responsible for removing any graffiti that is put on that station by anyone else.
Tagging = vandalism, destruction of property
but
Spraying the face = assault
Stripping clothes of back and spraying body with paint = aggravated assault
Tossing from train = murder
Of course, there would be the everlasting gratitude of anyone who hates graffiti.
(http://www.uni-television.com/assets/ci_sound.swf)
Two wrongs don't make a right.
wayne
Steam? Given sufficient pressure, steam will clean pretty much anything.
For cleanning the taggers themselves, however, 1200psi would be in order.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Now, now. The next of kin deserve to get back at least a handful of bits and pieces to bury.
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
There's a tagger at 7th Avenue in Brooklyn (IND) who regularly tags the east end stairwells and sometimes hits the wall beyond the tracks on the (geographic) West/North-bound side. It usually gets painted-over (with mismatched paint) or scrubbed off (tile) only to return a few days later. He's taken to scrawling, "You can't stop [his tag]" in mockery of the cleaning effort.
What an asshole.
This end of the station has 24-Hour HEETs. The only token booth for the whole station, an IND-mezzanine-express-style station, is in the middle, behind walls, with almost no view of the rest of the station. The East entrance is devoid of official presence all day long. The only thing stopping murals from being painted there by vandals is the fact that it is a well-travelled station at all hours.
It's also a factor of station design -- this station was meant to be an express station (I think that my neighbors and I could use a return of express service there, but that's another well-travelled thread). It's huuuuuge, but served only by the F local. Most of our neighborhood is...uh...sophisticated(?) enough that we pay our fares using the MVMs. I'd be surprised if more the 5% of passengers buy their cards at the booth at this station. This doesn't excuse the lack of serveillance, however.
This is one of the drawbacks of usding MVM's to reduce station agent presence. Don't get me wrong. I am thankful that MVM's make it possible to have the entrance remain open for 24 Hours. I don't know if that end of the station ever had a token booth -- there hasn't been one there in the 3 years I've lived in the neighborhood. In fact, that entrance doesn't need MVM's to be open 24 hours, since passengers can always walk to the middle to descend to the platform near the booth (the outside sections of the mezzanine are fenced-off to create walkways outside fare control).
An increased police presence might. A well-maintained surveillance camera system might. A station agent wouldn't have any way of knowing that anything was going on, let alone any way to do anything about it.
I suppose you think we should have done nothing after 9-11.
And the President is the cause for the slight increase in grafitti?
Did you notice the complete lack of Iraqi involvement there?
Ironically, on another note, I saw a completely spotless R-38 pair today - 4044-4045. No rust, graffitti, scratchitti, rust, bondo or duct tape anywhere to be seen.
wayne
1) Lex line continues on Lex below 42nd, then down Irving Pl, 15th St, Bway(!).
2) Shuttle runs from 34/Lex to 34/8.
3) West Side Line runs W Bway - Hudson - 8th - CPW.
I'm surprised that this is dated as late as 1904. Original plans had the Lexington Line continuing down Lex and part of this was actually built, abandoned and filled in.
1904 map
<A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2206440478">1904 map</A>
where:
2206440478 is the item number
1906 map is the link description.
It's plan was to compete head-to-head with the new IRT subway, plus add extra routes that should have been built in the first place. Yes, the "dog leg" under 15th Street is odd, but it needed somewhere to cut over to Union Sq. from Lexington Ave/Irving Place.
This was writted up in "722 Miles". Again, this plan had no reality of being built because there was absolutely no financing behind it. It was just bait to get bought up by the IRT (who did so at inflated prices that cost it dearly in the 1920s).
Here at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, "We measure success one person at a time."
Be proud of what you have done.
But it sounds like the Teeyay is in EXACTLY the same circumstances now (and the timing *IS* right) as they were when they hired *MOI* ... heh. Folks hitting the silk faster than they could "induct trainees" and taking ANYTHING that could fog a mirror (I was a member of that Alma Mater, "B division school car graduate, January 13th, 1PM" ... that allowed the auditorium to be used for the TWO PM graduates by bingbonging our butts and telling us to "step lively" out of the room. :)
But it DOES sound like a repeat of 1970 historically. I was a conductor for 6 months (3 on the road) and a motorman for FOUR months (3 in schollcar) ... I was an EGG on the road when I blew MY gig. And I don't regret being drummed out of the corps at ALL. MUCH saner after the MT-yay ...
Back then though, they were calling up the list faster than it could be certified - they were ADVERTISING for conductors on the roof advertising space ("Conductors can earn $257.50 a week to start, TAKE ONE") ... desperation! That was WHY so many trains were ABD'd back in the late 60's early 70's ... Ronan was SUCH an asshole, and QUILL had died, so TWU wasn't up to "leadership" EITHER that everyone who *COULD* retire *DID* ... along came Selkirk. :)
So, what happens with a civil service list depends on the realities. There's a HIRING FREEZE that's been on with civil service for going on .... how long has Shrub been in office? Since a couple of months after THAT ... *NO* hires, all positions "ABD'd" ... if a civil service test is out at ALL, then it's an "emergency" situation ... as long as folks are hitting the silk at retirement-able, buyout-able, they're gonna TAKE it ... and ABD's rise ... I suspect the folks from this list will move up quickly ... it's *MY* time (graf, urine-soaked cabs, et al) all over again.
I'll let Steve 8th Ave Exp do the obligatory Yogi Berra/YooHoo thing in response. :)
VC Madman
But if you're in good health, shouldn't be a problem.
I would assume that uncontrolled means high blood pressure even with medication. If the medication brings down your pressure it would be controlled.
And do what... run into the pier at St. George.
At least Subway Trains got brakes and trippers and deadman features.
There might be something fishy out in the harbor, but BP meds or the lack there of do not usually drop you, though an OD on them might
Maybe Ron can answer that one a little better than I.
Elias
You also have to think about the if you choose not to report it on the questionaire and do have an attack. I know someone who (another city) had epilepsey all his like, did not put it down on his medical history, had an attack. Not fun when they got done with him.
1: Fill in the blanks:
--R----O--
--A----R--T--N
-E---R
2: Name a current bus loop where trolley tracks remain
3: The Route 100 uses an under-running (shoe on top) third rail. The MFL uses an over-running (shoe on bottom) third rail. How did the old "Almond Joy" M3 Market-Frankford Line cars manage usage on the 100?
4: Why were they there in the first place?
5: A lone pocket track sits on the PATCO, west of Woodcrest. What purpose does it serve?
6: What SEPTA depots can be seen from what Regional Rail Lines?
7: Your train # is 4711. Where will this train terminate?
8: Above question: What does the "4" indicate?
9: It's rush hour, yet cars still remain in the Fern Rock north yard. Why?
10: Speaking of Fern Rock, was it planned for SEPTA to have four tracks through on the Regional Rail Lines here?
11: What is stored in Fern Rock north yard, and what is stored in Fern Rock south yard? And which yard is located closest to the shops?
12: By time, where is the physical center of the Market-Frankford Line?
13: By station count, where is the physical center of the Market-Frankford Line?
14: For the Market-Frankford Line, name the:
a: First Frankford side station to be rehabbed
b: Oddball of the stations, as far as design/construction goes.
c: Station with the most connecting routes.
d: Stations with the longest twin platforms (key word: TWIN, so locations where one is a car length or two longer than the other don't count)
e: Station at which one can only board trains in one direction.
f: Longest island platform.
15: For the Broad Street Line, name the:
a: Longest station
b: Largest station
c: First of its current four terminal stations to be used as such.
d: Only station with a restroom
e: Speed limit for the curves around City Hall
f: Speed limit between Olney and Fern Rock.
16: For the Regional Rail Lines, name the:
a: RRD control center
b: Sole station on ANY line with NO identifying signage
c: Stations closed within the past decade
d: Evidence, if any, that remains of these stations
e: Least Pennsy-like ex-PRR line.
f: Stations designed by architect Frank Furness and the line on which you find them.
g: Lines with the LOWEST number of staffed stations (i.e. stations with ticket offices)
17: Both the ex-Pennsy, and the ex-Reading Ivy Ridge Stations remain standing. The ex-Pennsy station hasn't seen rail service since the late 1980s. The wires are removed, the tracks and bumper and platform are not. Why does the station remain?
18: When PATCO opened up the line to Lindenwold, there were 12 stations. Which of the current 13 was not yet built?
19: You're on a train to Bay Head, yet you do not change trains at Long Branch. Where did your train originate?
20: How many Rahway turnback trips are on the Northeast Corridor Line schedule?
21: Obviously, my handle is from one of SEPTA's Regional Rail Lines, the R6. Which branch did I use?
22: Assuming SEPTA to continue their trend with Broad Street Line station rehab of color-coding the tile on the columns at island platform stations based on the non-standard color on the mezzanine level (a la Lombard-South), what colors would be used for the remaining island platform stations to be renovated? (do not include Walnut-Locust, as it's being done right now)
23: Two stations on the Broad Street Line have no steel or concrete support columns on the platform. Name them.
24: What Regional Rail stations have full-length canopy over the platforms?
25: Going by the old announcement boards (such as at Suburban Station), what were some of the former turnback locations along the Regional Rail Lines?
26: An off-street loop along the Subway-Surface lines only allows the trolley to go back to City Hall, with no access from the west, yet it is not the end terminal for the route. What loop do I speak of?
27: Along the 100, where will you find the train passes the platform for its current direction before pasing the opposite platform?
28: Also on the 100, which station is the LEAST used?
29: Again, the 100. Your train is scheduled to arrive at two stops at the exact same time? What are they?
30: You get off the train on platform A, and manage to purchase a cinnamon sugar pretzel from Auntie Anne's within 6 seconds. Where did you get off?
31: What purposes do the stub tracks at Penn Center Suburban Station serve?
32: What is the largest yard/shop facility in the Regional Rail Division?
33: PATCO's Lindenwold Terminal was to originally go by what name?
34: And at that, where is the originally planned Lindenwold Station?
35: Name two RRD stations commonly mixed up by passengers.
36: Preparing an "opening day" railfan trip for next year. What two lines could I be talking about?
37: For the SEPTA Regional Rail Express trains with nicknames, list their Suburban Station departure times, service pattern from center City outbound, and alternate names.
38: Two trains leave Girard on the Broad Street Line simultaneously, and how is obvious. They're going north. At the next stop for the Express train, the horn is not sounded, yet the passengers instinctively disregard the train until it stops. The train has two more stops to make before heading south. I have mislead you with some information. What is incorrect?
39: Crul irony strikes. This station just got new signage depicting the name shown on the maps and timetables for years. But then, it gets closed. Wht station do I speak of?
40: A less cruel irony. SEPTA's been revitalizing both on-platform AND lollipop station signage, using their new RRD scheme of white text on a dark gray background. However, THIS station has its OLD name on the NEW lollipop sign. Yet, an older sign at the parking lot entrance on the OTHER side of the station has the new name, ever since the station was renamed and the platforms moved west, which was over a decade ago. Of which station do I speak?
41: The Market-Frankford is the Blue Line, yet I'm seeing only green signage at this station, and not an MFL in sight... but plenty of trolleys. I didn't see the MFL tracks entering the station, but I think I hear it nearby... or is that a trolley coming? No, there's wheel noise evident of curves, but no trolley has entered or left recently? Where am I, and what is all that screeching?
42: Speaking of the MFL, it's the Blue Line, but the only blue is typically on signs, and inside the cars. And a strip of blue at the top of the silver M4s. Where can I find enough blue to more than make up for that along this line?
43: PATCO has a common error about its connections. As if their differing fare structure as a different line of a different system preventing free interchange at 8th Street wasn't bad enough, at THIS station, they don't even acknowledge the connection to the Broad Street Line. What's the station?
44: "Yeah, I just got off the El, but the trolley's late. What? It's not a trolley anymore? It doesn't even EXIST as a route anymore?! Now what? How do I get to South Philly now?" What line did this poor soul think he was going to catch, and where did he get off the El in the first place?
That's all the questions! Good Luck! And have fun!
~R6
2] Torresdale and Cottman
3] The cars were re-trucked. They used trucks from the PATH K cars
4] The old Bullets and 60 series cars got too old and fell apart. also there were not enough of them to maintain service.
5] It was originally used for the few trains that terminated at Haddonfield. That practice ended when Woodcrest opened.
6] Midvale. It can be seen from the R1, 2,3, 5, 7, and 8.
18] Woodcrest
19] Hoboken
21] Norristown/Cynwyd
26] Yeadon
28] Parkview or County Line
33] Kirkwood
36] Feb 15/NJT River Line (SNJLRTS) and April - Rt. 15 restoration
Chuck Greene
The 23 Chestnut Hill Loop, also the 56 on Erie, the 56's Torresdale loop, Allegheny loop on the 15.
3: The Route 100 uses an under-running (shoe on top) third rail. The MFL uses an over-running (shoe on bottom) third rail. How did the old "Almond Joy" M3 Market-Frankford Line cars manage usage on the 100?
Change the trucks, you forgot to mention that the Rt100 is standard gauge while the MFL is Penn Broad Gauge.
4: Why were they there in the first place?
Cause ABB phucked up the order for the N-5s and SEPTA needed something other than Brill Bullets and old CTA cars to run on the line. We also got ALP44 2308 out of the deal...
5: A lone pocket track sits on the PATCO, west of Woodcrest. What purpose does it serve?
It's used in the mornings and evenings by locals that originate or terminate there during the time they run express service.
6: What SEPTA depots can be seen from what Regional Rail Lines?
AFAIK, Midvale and Elmwood
9: It's rush hour, yet cars still remain in the Fern Rock north yard. Why?
Cause SEPTA has enough equipment on the BSS to cover rush hour service? If they do then why the hell didn't we get fewer BSS cars and more K-cars, cause we need those!
11: What is stored in Fern Rock north yard, and what is stored in Fern Rock south yard? And which yard is located closest to the shops?
IIRC the old nostalgia cars and the work cars are in the north yard, while the in service cars are in the south yard. The South yard is closer
17: Both the ex-Pennsy, and the ex-Reading Ivy Ridge Stations remain standing. The ex-Pennsy station hasn't seen rail service since the late 1980s. The wires are removed, the tracks and bumper and platform are not. Why does the station remain?
Cause it's owned by the city?
18: When PATCO opened up the line to Lindenwold, there were 12 stations. Which of the current 13 was not yet built?
Woodcrest
19: You're on a train to Bay Head, yet you do not change trains at Long Branch. Where did your train originate?
Hoboken via Waterfront Connection
21: Obviously, my handle is from one of SEPTA's Regional Rail Lines, the R6. Which branch did I use?
Norristown
26: An off-street loop along the Subway-Surface lines only allows the trolley to go back to City Hall, with no access from the west, yet it is not the end terminal for the route. What loop do I speak of?
Mt. Moriah? Although technically Elmwood Depot could also be used as a loop with 73rd and Elmwood on the roll, just go down to Island and turn right into the depot, follow the tracks up and go right at the switch into the depot, this will take you back out as a 36-City Hall. Also you cannot get from the eastbound 36 on Island to the loop trackage around Eastwick, they just make a right off Island onto Eastwick, with no switches, I think.
30: You get off the train on platform A, and manage to purchase a cinnamon sugar pretzel from Auntie Anne's within 6 seconds. Where did you get off?
I'd say 30th St station, but those Auntie Annes people there are SLOW. So, even though theres a Auntie Annes right under the southernmost platform at 30th St UL, I'd have to go with Suburban Station.
31: What purposes do the stub tracks at Penn Center Suburban Station serve?
Those date back to when Suburban Station was a terminal station. These days they park their SPAX caboose, an OOS Push Pull set during weekday middays, and the R6 Cynwyd down there.
32: What is the largest yard/shop facility in the Regional Rail Division?
I'm gonna say Roberts Yard, Powellton is pretty big, but I'm not sure how much of it is SEPTA's and how much is Amtrak's...
33: PATCO's Lindenwold Terminal was to originally go by what name?
Kirkwood or Kirkland or something
35: Name two RRD stations commonly mixed up by passengers.
Chestnut Hill West and Chesnut Hill West? North Broad and North Philadelphia? Downingtown and Doylestown?
36: Preparing an "opening day" railfan trip for next year. What two lines could I be talking about?
The Rt 15 Girard LRT and the Southern New Jersey LRT
39: Cru[e]l irony strikes. This station just got new signage depicting the name shown on the maps and timetables for years. But then, it gets closed. Wht station do I speak of?
Wissonoming
41: The Market-Frankford is the Blue Line, yet I'm seeing only green signage at this station, and not an MFL in sight... but plenty of trolleys. I didn't see the MFL tracks entering the station, but I think I hear it nearby... or is that a trolley coming? No, there's wheel noise evident of curves, but no trolley has entered or left recently? Where am I, and what is all that screeching?
33rd St on the Subway Surface, if you go down to the eastern (geographic northern) edge of the platform you can just barely make out the MFL's lights on the tunnel walls. You might have to bring something to stand on, or stand on tip toes.
42: Speaking of the MFL, it's the Blue Line, but the only blue is typically on signs, and inside the cars. And a strip of blue at the top of the silver M4s. Where can I find enough blue to more than make up for that along this line?
8th is pretty blue, as are 5th and 2nd. IIRC most of the rebuilt El stations are pretty blue.
43: PATCO has a common error about its connections. As if their differing fare structure as a different line of a different system preventing free interchange at 8th Street wasn't bad enough, at THIS station, they don't even acknowledge the connection to the Broad Street Line. What's the station?
15-16th Locust
44: "Yeah, I just got off the El, but the trolley's late. What? It's not a trolley anymore? It doesn't even EXIST as a route anymore?! Now what? How do I get to South Philly now?" What line did this poor soul think he was going to catch, and where did he get off the El in the first place?
The 23, at 11th St Station I guess, although the line on 12th would be pretty damn close to equidistant to both 11th and 13th St station. So you might be better off going to 13th, you'll be on the right side of the street, especially if you're coming from the west, you won't have to backtrack. The only problem I could see with going to 13th on an eastbound is that the crossover is on the far west end of the platform, and the east side one outside fare control is closed, thus you'd have to cross market, which kinda defeats the point of going to 13th to avoid crossing 12th. 11th's crossover is, IIRC, in the middle of the platform, so you wouldn't have the problems of crossing Market you have at 13th. Of course on a westbound it's a coin toss, on one hand, you get off at 11th and run the 1/2 block or so to 12th and cross 12th, or you stay on and go 1/2 block out of your way on the MFL, but then don't have to cross 12th and maybe you can jam your foot in the door of that trolley (assuming of course that the trolley is running).
And if you do show up at 12th and Market looking for a trolley, then you're a moron who deserves to try to squeeze your ass onto that goddamn interminable Neoplan that was as crowded as it could get way back at Erie!
43: The PATCO connection to the BSL would be Walnut Locus station
2: Germantown Av/Bethlehem Pike loop...still in service with the holiday trolley too!
36: the 15 is going to be a trolley line, and I think the MFL is going to start operating on it's new track above market st.
When they swapped the trucks to standard guage, the 3rd rail shoes changed too.
4: Why were they there in the first place?
i think the trucks came from the BSS, or PATH or the NYCS.
5: A lone pocket track sits on the PATCO, west of Woodcrest. What purpose does it serve?
Short turn Haddonfield Locals.
9: It's rush hour, yet cars still remain in the Fern Rock north yard. Why?
Historical collection
10: Speaking of Fern Rock, was it planned for SEPTA to have four tracks through on the Regional Rail Lines here?
There are been a lot of plans, I think the plan was for 3 tracks CP-NEWTOWN JCT to JENKIN.
11: What is stored in Fern Rock north yard, and what is stored in Fern Rock south yard? And which yard is located closest to the shops?
Ready trainsets are in the North Yard, trainsets to be worked on are in the sotuh yard which accesses the shoppes,
16: For the Regional Rail Lines, name the:
a: RRD control center
1234 Market
b: Sole station on ANY line with NO identifying signage
Bridesburg?
c: Stations closed within the past decade
Logan and/or Tioga?
d: Evidence, if any, that remains of these stations
The platforms
e: Least Pennsy-like ex-PRR line.
R3 Media, no more position lights
f: Stations designed by architect Frank Furness and the line on which you find them.
Errrr, R8 Chestnut Hill West?
g: Lines with the LOWEST number of staffed stations (i.e. stations with ticket offices)
R3 West Trent-town
17: Both the ex-Pennsy, and the ex-Reading Ivy Ridge Stations remain standing. The ex-Pennsy station hasn't seen rail service since the late 1980s. The wires are removed, the tracks and bumper and platform are not. Why does the station remain?
It costs money to remove it and it would require STB hearings to abandon the line.
18: When PATCO opened up the line to Lindenwold, there were 12 stations. Which of the current 13 was not yet built?
Woodcrest
19: You're on a train to Bay Head, yet you do not change trains at Long Branch. Where did your train originate?
Federal St.
21: Obviously, my handle is from one of SEPTA's Regional Rail Lines, the R6. Which branch did I use?
Norristown, nobody goes to Cynwyd.
24: What Regional Rail stations have full-length canopy over the platforms?
30th St, Trenton, Wilmington, University City, Temple U
31: What purposes do the stub tracks at Penn Center Suburban Station serve?
Equipment Storage
33: PATCO's Lindenwold Terminal was to originally go by what name?
Kirkwood
32: What is the largest yard/shop facility in the Regional Rail Division
Roberts Yard / Shoppe or Overbrook, its a toss up.
35: Name two RRD stations commonly mixed up by passengers.
Chestnut Hill
36: Preparing an "opening day" railfan trip for next year. What two lines could I be talking about?
Rt 15 and something.
38: Two trains leave Girard on the Broad Street Line simultaneously, and how is obvious. They're going north. At the next stop for the Express train, the horn is not sounded, yet the passengers instinctively disregard the train until it stops. The train has two more stops to make before heading south. I have mislead you with some information. What is incorrect?
The passengers don't disregard it because it is a short Ridge Line train.
41: The Market-Frankford is the Blue Line, yet I'm seeing only green signage at this station, and not an MFL in sight... but plenty of trolleys. I didn't see the MFL tracks entering the station, but I think I hear it nearby... or is that a trolley coming? No, there's wheel noise evident of curves, but no trolley has entered or left recently? Where am I, and what is all that screeching?
City Hall.
42: Speaking of the MFL, it's the Blue Line, but the only blue is typically on signs, and inside the cars. And a strip of blue at the top of the silver M4s. Where can I find enough blue to more than make up for that along this line?
Painted blue floors in the mezzinines at some stations.
4711 is an odd number so the train is southbound. So it will terminate at Trenton.
The 4 means it originates are a different line from which it originates.
Here are some questions for you.
What are 9000 series trains?
What were 5000 series trains? How did 5000 series trains change? What current train could be a 5000 series but isn't?
What "trains" still have 5xxx in their designation?
What are special about trains 527 and 566?
What are 9000 series trains?
Anything originating or terminating in Roberts Avenue Yard (mostly these days, it's the weekday expresses/limiteds on the R2, 3, 5, and 7, and half the weekday R1 trains... a few R7 and R8 trains carry this, but NONE of the R6 runs do.)
What were 5000 series trains? How did 5000 series trains change? What current train could be a 5000 series but isn't?
Weekday turnbacks/origins at either Fern Rock Transportation Center or Wayne Junction. I'd guess the change was from Wayne Junction to WJ or Fern Rock when the Transportation Center was built. To this day, I can't say for sure, but I HAVE seen ALP-44 #2305 sitting in Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop's yard which is NORTH of the station. Not sure what train# it's for, but I believe it's one of the Trenton runs. I ONCE saw a Bombardier push-pull consist laying up at Fern Rock T.C. back in 1998; that was an R5 Downingtown limited. Last time 5000 series were used was RailWorks.
What "trains" still have 5xxx in their designation?
Got me there... probably equipment moves for the diesel cars
What are special about trains 527 and 566?
They both ONLY skip Elkins Park and North Broad. 527 is a Doylestown-Thorndale run. 566 is a Thorndale-Doylestown run. Of course, before November 10th, 1996, these were the sole off-peak trains to Parkesburg and Coatesville. Still to this day, they go end-to-end.
The current train that could be a 5000 is the first morning Airport train, #101 which starts at FRTC.
The trains that use 5000 in their designation are the numerous daily FRAZIER to THORN deadhead moves that use 2 track GLEN to THORN. They are numbered D5xxx.
What are special about trains 527 and 566?
They both ONLY skip Elkins Park and North Broad. 527 is a Doylestown-Thorndale run. 566 is a Thorndale-Doylestown run. Of course, before November 10th, 1996, these were the sole off-peak trains to Parkesburg and Coatesville. Still to this day, they go end-to-end.
That is kinda special, but that is not what is really special. You almost had it with noting that they were the sole off-peak PARK trains. These trains are the CORK trains. They have slot on the Harrisburg Line to run out to CORK (Lancaster) and back. Of course they are non-revenue past THORN. The reason for this is because any SEPTA engineer running past THORN (the Thorndale station is past THORN), must qualify all the way to CORK (Lancaster). These trains are run as needed and annulled when not.
C) I wonder if that would be bridge pratt or Market East.
30) You gotta be a real loser if you're in philly, and the best pretzals you can find are from Auntie Annes house of homogenous foods. :)
42) on steel supports?
1: Fill in the blanks:
--R----O--
--A----R--T--N
-E---R
NORRISTOWN TRANSPORTATION CENTER
2: Name a current bus loop where trolley tracks remain
Okay, I saw a few acceptable and all-around correct answers... I should have specified that the tracks remained ONLY in the loop, not along the street as well, nor anywhere else on the old line. The two were both on Rising Sun Avenue; the Olney Avenue Loop (used by Route 57 trips NOT going into Fern Rock and Route 26 trips when One & Olney Square is closed, and a few pre-peak afternoon trips), and the Knorr Street Loop (used by ONE morning peak eastbound 18 Express trip, and the last trips daily, also Route 18)
3: The Route 100 uses an under-running (shoe on top) third rail. The MFL uses an over-running (shoe on bottom) third rail. How did the old "Almond Joy" M3 Market-Frankford Line cars manage usage on the 100?
Re-trucked with PATH equipment to fit the third rail and standard guage (MFL is, as noted, Penn Broad Guage)
4: Why were they there in the first place?
AdTranz was a little (???) late with the N5 order, and the CTA cars and Bullet Cars weren't cutting the mustard anymore.
5: A lone pocket track sits on the PATCO, west of Woodcrest. What purpose does it serve?
Former peak hour Philadelphia-Haddonfield Local turnback point; the practice ceased after a certain station opened...
6: What SEPTA depots can be seen from what Regional Rail Lines?
Elmwood (Subway-Surface Lines) from the R2 Newark, and Midvale (IIRC, half of Routes C, R, 2, 18, 25, 28, 33, 47m/47, 54, 57, and 89 and ALL of Routes H/XH, L, 6, 22, 32, 35, 39, 53, 55, 56, 61, 77, and 80) from ANY Regional Rail Line that runs between Center City and Wayne Junction. If you count them as depots, Overbrook and Frazer are visible (Frazer albeit barely) from the R5 Thorndale, and Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop and Roberts Yard Facility also from anything going through Wayne Junction.
7: Your train # is 4711. Where will this train terminate?
Trenton, NJ as an R7.
8: Above question: What does the "4" indicate?
"4" in a four-digit train number indicates the train originates on one line, and terminates on a branch of a totally different line. In this case, Doylestown (R5) to Trenton (R7). 4 is usually used as a prefix for Warminster trains, as MOST of them originate at the Airport.
9: It's rush hour, yet cars still remain in the Fern Rock north yard. Why?
Because SEPTA just doesn't wanna scrap off their nostalgic cars, which are two classic BSS cars, a Bridge Line Car, and an old Conrail boxcar??? What's THAT doing there???
10: Speaking of Fern Rock, was it planned for SEPTA to have four tracks through on the Regional Rail Lines here?
Yes. If the design of an island and a side platform in a three-track main isn't evidence enough, there's clearly room enough for an additional inbound track (under the walkways to the BSS platform), and some overhead wire that looks to be intended to run alongside the other inbound wire, about a platform width away (this dead-ends at a catenary pole at the north end of the platform).
11: What is stored in Fern Rock north yard, and what is stored in Fern Rock south yard? And which yard is located closest to the shops?
North Yard: 5-car ready trainsets (mostly the weekday Expresses, and a few Local consists) and the nostalgia cars and boxcar.
South Yard: Work equipment, money train, cars to be repaired, off-numbered consists (four-car, single car, etc), and the Broad-Ridge Spur. South Yard is closest to the shops.
12: By time, where is the physical center of the Market-Frankford Line?
Midway between 5th Street and 2nd Street.
13: By station count, where is the physical center of the Market-Frankford Line?
8th Street
14: For the Market-Frankford Line, name the:
a: First Frankford side station to be rehabbed
b: Oddball of the stations, as far as design/construction goes.
c: Station with the most connecting routes.
d: Stations with the longest twin platforms (key word: TWIN, so locations where one is a car length or two longer than the other don't count)
e: Station at which one can only board trains in one direction.
f: Longest island platform.
a: Spring Garden (Formerly Fairmount), done when I-95 was constructed in the area.
b: One of three: 69th Street (only station at grade), Spring Garden (elevated island platform in the median of I-95), and Millbourne (only remaining all wooden station)
c: 11th Street/Pennsylvania Convention Center (17, 23, 33, 38, 44, 48, 61 Express, 121, R1, R2, R3, R5, R6, R7, R8, and NJT Bus Routes 313, 315, 317, 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 412, 413, 419, 551. That's 33 connecting routes total.)
d: 69th Street Terminal, 40th Street, 15th Street, 2nd Street, Margaret-Orthodox
e: 69th Street Terminal, Bridge-Pratt/Frankford Transportation center, and Millbourne (wanna go west here? Take the 21!)
f: Frankford Transportation Center
15: For the Broad Street Line, name the:
a: Longest station
b: Largest station
c: First of its current four terminal stations to be used as such.
d: Only station with a restroom
e: Speed limit for the curves around City Hall
f: Speed limit between Olney and Fern Rock.
a: Pattison
b: City Hall
c: Olney (original nothbound terminal, now the weekday Broad-Ridge Spur terminal)
d: Chinatown
e: 25 MPH
f: 12 MPH
16: For the Regional Rail Lines, name the:
a: RRD control center
b: Sole station on ANY line with NO identifying signage
c: Stations closed within the past decade
d: Evidence, if any, that remains of these stations
e: Least Pennsy-like ex-PRR line.
f: Stations designed by architect Frank Furness and the line on which you find them.
g: Lines with the LOWEST number of staffed stations (i.e. stations with ticket offices)
a: The RROC (1234 Market Street now, was originally in Suburban Station, IIRC)
b: Highland Avenue (R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark)
c: Oh boy... Frankford Junction, Frankford, Andalusia, Wissinoming, Westmoreland, Shawmont, Fishers, Fellwick, Fulmor, Lamokin Street, Logan, Tabor, Fern Rock, Temple U (Columbia Avenue/Cecil B Moore Blvd.), Mogees
d: Oh boy again...
Mogees: Wooden edge of the outbound platform
Westmoreland: Still standing, but closed
Fishers: Same
Shawmont: Even the BUILDING remains, though not for any railroad function. Signage is still intact as well.
Wissinoming; Hey, it just closed, give them a chance to do some damage first
Lamokin Street: See Wissinoming, t'was a relatively recent closure
Fellwick: Skeletal structure of signage where the platforms were.
Tabor: Nothing
Fern Rock: I believe nothing as well, though the stairs were once here, and there was an old SEPTA RRD "Fern Rock" platform sign just laying around near Wayne Junction in 1998
Temple U: Space where the platforms stood, and the space where the old building once was remain unoccupied.
Fulmor: Asphalt platform, and VERY INTACT 1984 SEPTA Rail System Map
Logan: The stone entryway at Broad & Windrim. The platforms and shelter were recently removed. The platform space is still visible.
Andalusia: Partly demolished stairs to the platforms from Tennis Avenue
Frankford Junction: The concrete platform is in very bad shape, but it's there. It's also still got the light structures and a sign reading "Trains to Trenton - This platform". It's on the ISLAND Platform, so I imagine Atlantic City trains once stopped here as well. You can see some of the inbound platform's concrete and light posts as well.
Frankford: Look VERY CLOSELY between Frankford Junction and Bridesburg. You'll see a flat space with rusted old railings, hinting at where the stairs were.
e: R3 Media/Elwyn... too many grade crossings to be Pennsy, but it is...
f: Mt. Airy and Gravers on the R7 Chestnut Hill East
g: two-way tie between the R8 Fox Chase (Cheltenham and Fox Chase, as Olney was closed in 1996) and the R6 Norristown (East Falls and Norristown Trans. Cntr.)
17: Both the ex-Pennsy, and the ex-Reading Ivy Ridge Stations remain standing. The ex-Pennsy station hasn't seen rail service since the late 1980s. The wires are removed, the tracks and bumper and platform are not. Why does the station remain?
The station's in the middle of the parking lot, and demolishing it=MASSIVE disruption, as it's a choice: drive all the way to Miquon, or drive all the way to East Falls or Wissahickon. Manayunk's got no parking. Besides THAT, this would supposedly be used by the Schuylkill Valley Metro when it opens.
18: When PATCO opened up the line to Lindenwold, there were 12 stations. Which of the current 13 was not yet built?
Woodcrest
19: You're on a train to Bay Head, yet you do not change trains at Long Branch. Where did your train originate?
Hoboken Terminal, as a DIESEL train.
20: How many Rahway turnback trips are on the Northeast Corridor Line schedule?
NONE. What appear to be Rahway turnbacks are North Jersey Coast Line trains.
21: Obviously, my handle is from one of SEPTA's Regional Rail Lines, the R6. Which branch did I use?
Norristown. Took the R6 to/from Norristown on my way to King of Prussia, where I worked in the summers of 1998 and 1999. Me no have anything to do in Cynwyd...
22: Assuming SEPTA to continue their trend with Broad Street Line station rehab of color-coding the tile on the columns at island platform stations based on the non-standard color on the mezzanine level (a la Lombard-South), what colors would be used for the remaining island platform stations to be renovated? (do not include Walnut-Locust, as it's being done right now)
Spring Garden: Tan. Griard: Maroon. Noth Philadelphia and Farimount on the Ridge: Blue, but probably powder blue at Fairmount.
23: Two stations on the Broad Street Line have no steel or concrete support columns on the platform. Name them.
Chinatown and 8th Street.
24: What Regional Rail stations have full-length canopy over the platforms?
University City, Temple University, Thorndale, the Airport Terminals, Swarthmore, Wyndmoor, Germantown, Wilmington, Chester (except the outbound far end), Curtis Park, Radnor, Trenton, Wayne Junction (except a portion collapsed on the outbound main due to heavy snowfall in 1993), West Trenton, Jenkintown-Wyncote, Chestnut Hill East, Manayunk, Allegheny, and Norristown Transportation Center
25: Going by the old announcement boards (such as at Suburban Station), what were some of the former turnback locations along the Regional Rail Lines?
R3: Secane, Neshaminy Falls, Langhorne
R5: Ambler
R6: 30th Street, Elm Street (Now shows "N" for Norristown)
R8: Allen Lane amd Newtown. Yes, you heard me. NEWTOWN!
26: An off-street loop along the Subway-Surface lines only allows the trolley to go back to City Hall, with no access from the west, yet it is not the end terminal for the route. What loop do I speak of?
Route 13: Mt Moriah (63rd & Kingsessing Avenue)
27: Along the 100, where will you find the train passes the platform for its current direction before pasing the opposite platform?
Garrett Hill, Matsonford, County Line (it's in BOTH counties, HAH!)
28: Also on the 100, which station is the LEAST used?
Parkview
29: Again, the 100. Your train is scheduled to arrive at two stops at the exact same time? What are they?
Stadium and Villanova, early and later runs.
30: You get off the train on platform A, and manage to purchase a cinnamon sugar pretzel from Auntie Anne's within 6 seconds. Where did you get off?
30th Street Station. Platform A is tracks 1/2 through there.
31: What purposes do the stub tracks at Penn Center Suburban Station serve?
0: Emergency turnbacks, trains are usually pulled from Powelton Yard to go further east, and arrive on Track 1, where passengers change trains on the 0/1 platform)
5: Once had the R2 Crum Lynne Local, now I believe it's just random storage and the SPAX caboose.
6: R6 Cynwyd. Before that, the 4:47 PM R5 Thorndale Limited
7: Great Valley Flyer (R5 Thorndale)
32: What is the largest yard/shop facility in the Regional Rail Division?
Roberts Avenue, especially if including Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop and Wayne Junction Station nearby as part of the whole complex.
33: PATCO's Lindenwold Terminal was to originally go by what name?
Kirkwood
34: And at that, where is the originally planned Lindenwold Station?
Ashland
35: Name two RRD stations commonly mixed up by passengers.
Chestnut Hill West and Chestnut Hill East
North Hills and North Wales
University City and Temple University
Thorndale and Torresdale
Trenton and West Trenton
Highland (R8 Chestnut Hill West) and Highland Avenue (R2 Newark)
Wayne and Wayne Junction, for some reason or another...
(my favorite) Lansdowne and Lansdale.
36: Preparing an "opening day" railfan trip for next year. What two lines could I be talking about?
Now IS the year. "River Line" for NJT, and the return of the trolleys to Route 15 on Girard Avenue! And as an unrelated note, Route 23 will definitely NOT return as a trolley. Sorry, folks. Still not sure on the 56...
37: For the SEPTA Regional Rail Express trains with nicknames, list their Suburban Station departure times, service pattern from center City outbound, and alternate names.
R3: 5:14 PM Express to Bethayres, then local to West Trenton, NJ. Recently dubbed the "Neshaminy Limited"
R5: 5:41 PM departure from Track 7. Nonstop to Paoli, then local to Thorndale. The notorious "Great Valley Flyer". Also, 5:17 PM Express to Fort Washington, then local (skips Penllyn) to Doylestown - the "North Penn Limited"
R6: 5:14 PM Express from temple University to Ivy Ridge, then local to Norristown. Everyone's favorite, "The Schuylkill Flyer"!
38: Two trains leave Girard on the Broad Street Line simultaneously, and how is obvious. They're going north. At the next stop for the Express train, the horn is not sounded, yet the passengers instinctively disregard the train until it stops. The train has two more stops to make before heading south. I have mislead you with some information. What is incorrect?
Passengers didn't disregard the train. It was a northbound Broad-Ridge Spur, not an Express.
39: Cru(e)l irony strikes. This station just got new signage depicting the name shown on the maps and timetables for years. But then, it gets closed. Wht station do I speak of?
Curse that TYPO! Anyways, it's Lamokin Street. Originally named "Lamokin" by signage, and "Lamokin Street" on the maps, that went in reverse just before it was closed (though the maps had "Lamokin" since just before Thorndale opened)
40: A less cruel irony. SEPTA's been revitalizing both on-platform AND lollipop station signage, using their new RRD scheme of white text on a dark gray background. However, THIS station has its OLD name on the NEW lollipop sign. Yet, an older sign at the parking lot entrance on the OTHER side of the station has the new name, ever since the station was renamed and the platforms moved west, which was over a decade ago. Of which station do I speak?
DeKalb Street (Norristown Transportation Center). The sign is wrong, WHY? Because SEPTA just covered the existing one, not bothering to think about the fact that the station was renamed in 1989...)
41: The Market-Frankford is the Blue Line, yet I'm seeing only green signage at this station, and not an MFL in sight... but plenty of trolleys. I didn't see the MFL tracks entering the station, but I think I hear it nearby... or is that a trolley coming? No, there's wheel noise evident of curves, but no trolley has entered or left recently? Where am I, and what is all that screeching?
15th Street West (Richardson J. Dilworth Plaza), and the screeching is the Broad Street Line traveling between Shitty Hall and Race-Vine)
42: Speaking of the MFL, it's the Blue Line, but the only blue is typically on signs, and inside the cars. And a strip of blue at the top of the silver M4s. Where can I find enough blue to more than make up for that along this line?
Though the wrought iron railings at 52nd Street and 56th Street were painted a deep MFL blue recently... 2nd Street holds the title of "Most Blue MFL Station ever to exist"
43: PATCO has a common error about its connections. As if their differing fare structure as a different line of a different system preventing free interchange at 8th Street wasn't bad enough, at THIS station, they don't even acknowledge the connection to the Broad Street Line. What's the station?
15th/16th & Locust Sts. Connection to Walnut Locust is available here, but they always go with 13th/12th instead...
44: "Yeah, I just got off the El, but the trolley's late. What? It's not a trolley anymore? It doesn't even EXIST as a route anymore?! Now what? How do I get to South Philly now?" What line did this poor soul think he was going to catch, and where did he get off the El in the first place?
The poor schlemiel exited at 5th Street expecting to catch ROUTE 50, of all things... That's been dead since 1992, part of a mass route restructuring involving Routes P (discontinued), 47 (rerouted from 9th to 7th St; say hi to the 47m.), 89 (took over the P, lost its original route), 57 (lost Jefferson/Master Sts crosstown to the 89 (later torched as well), rerouted to part of the 50), and 5 (lost the 2nd/3rd Streets alignment to part of the 57).
That's all... see you later in the year with another one...
~R6 (Norristown), but lives near the R3 (Media/Elwyn (Wawa? West Chester?))
Re: 19 and 20, this was suposted to be a SEPTA quiz.
Beware unexpected PATCO/NJT questions as well
You didn't read the disclaimer, no taco for you...
And re: R3, I meant construction of the line... PRR didn't build the West Chester line with so much extensive grade separation as they did the others. Nor any huge flying junctions... (Bell, Zoo, 52nd Street) I'm curious as to WHY they did this; the best I can say is because of the rather quiet neighborhoods along the line, and unlike the R5 Thorndale (PRR Paoli/Harrisburg Line), this doesn't parallel some huge road, instead setting back from Baltimore Pike, and gradually diverging away, cutting through the smaller towns. In places like Secane, Morton, etc, it'd have been a NIMBY festival if they'd tried to raise the grade or lower it, and raise the roads to avoid the grade crossings. I should've mentioned the line is more Reading-like in its construction...
But, you're right about the lights... but, the R8??? I'd guess it's because the lines diverge from the heavier Amtrak NEC/Harrisburg trunk. The R3 never even TOUCHES Amtrak rail (tracks from PHIL to ARSENAL are actually two separate double-track lines, not a four-track main, unlike south of ARSENAL, and along the R7 Trenton). You know more about these matters than I do, however...
If that's about me knowing things right down to what Midvale's responsible for... Midvale's a half guess; I know they got everything Luzerne had when Luzerne closed, but I don't know what ended up shared and with who. The only one I'm sure on is they and Frankford split the 18, and Luzerne USED to split the 25.
If that's about how I know what RRD stations closed, and what evidence remains... I traveled a lot on those lines when the stations were still open (exceptions: Westmoreland, Frankford Junction, Frankford, Andalusia, Mogees)
But anyways, thank you...
Who is to say there will be a train to take you back?
Yes, I know the 44 runs there, too.
I'd like it noted that Elmwood and Island on the 36 certainly might count. I answered as such when your first posted this quiz:
"...Elmwood Depot could also be used as a loop with 73rd and Elmwood on the roll, just go down to Island and turn right into the depot, follow the tracks up and go right at the switch into the depot, this will take you back out as a 36-City Hall. Also you cannot get from the eastbound 36 on Island to the loop trackage around Eastwick, they just make a right off Island onto Eastwick, with no switches, I think."
Since then I have been back to Elmwood a couple times and now know that not only is there no connection between the eastbound 36 tracks coming off Island and the westbound tracks turning off Elmwood onto Island. SEPTA could run short turns to Island and Elmwood on the 36, just like they do to Mt Moriah on the 13, however those runs are certainly covered by 10 and 36 pull-ins to 73rd and Elmwood. Also the only people who would think of driving down the loop are SEPTA employees heading to work, since there are a ton of signs sitting around declaring the area behind the Dry Cleaners and Liquor Store to be 'SEPTA only.'
And I'd not take the warning signs so seriously... well, I WOULD, but apparently, some people have been able to get away with using the turnback to make a U-turn in their cars.
Actually, not.
Pennsylvania Broad Gauge is 5 feet 2 1/2 inches. Used today on the ex-Red Arrow lines to Sharon Hill and Media.
The Philadelphia gauge is 5 feet 21/4 inches.
A quarter inch narrower than Pennsylvania Broad Gauge.
A Philadelphia car can run in Pittsburgh, but a Pittsburgh car can't run in Philadelphia.
Don't feel bad, that quarter inch is pretty small!!!
New Orleans is not Pennsylvania Broad Gauge, it's Philadelphia gauge!!
The Widener-Elkins intrests built several of New Orleans horsecar line. Ex-Philadelphia horse cars were used - bringing that quarter inch narrower track with them.
I wonder what will replace the Neos... I've always wanted SEPTA to do one thing, though... take a page from the WMATA and NJT books... order their buses to have a separate small sign for the route letter/number, and for the destination.
Woodcrest
33: PATCO's Lindenwold Terminal was to originally go by what name?
Kirkwood
SINGAPORE
Here's an update on the summary posted by Mark Feinman a few years ago. The new North-East MRT line in Singapore opened this past June, and interconnects with the previously existing East-West and North-South lines. Denoted in purple color on system maps, it runs from Harbour Front in the south to Punggol in the northeastern part of the island city-state.
The trains are unitized six-car sets, with walk-through articulation. Each car has four doors per side, longitudinal seats (62 per car), and ceiling handholds along the center of the car. Yes, one can still be a straphanger in Singapore. The trainsets use AC propulsion as denoted by the telltale multi-pitch whine. Station stops are announced automatically, using a woman's voice that has a British accent. She even throws in "mind the gap!" for good measure. Each car has six plasma TV screens that show commercial messages; station information scrolls along the bottom. There are also two ceiling-mounted LCD displays that show station information.
Operation is totally automatic. In fact, there is no cab; the trainsets have a similar appearance to airport peoplemovers -- with a covered drivers' console that can be used in an emergency. In a throwback to tradition, there are two railfan windows, one at either side of the front car. In automatic operation, dwell time is set and doors close automatically after a warning signal. I saw no door holding at any time, even during rush hour. There are supposedly roving customer service personnel; I thought I saw one sitting in the middle of the train. He wasn't wearing a uniform, but was holding a two-way radio. In the center of each end of the trainset (where the operator's cab would be if there were one) is the emergency exit, a ramp that opens outward onto the tracks much like the tailcone emergency exit on a DC-9 or 727.
Stations are immaculate -- there was not one piece of litter on any platform or train. Station cleaners were everywhere. Like the older lines, modern faregates use proximity cards. Fares range from S$0.80 to S$1.80 depending on distance travelled. Station platforms have screen doors, so all stations are well air-conditioned.
Station mezzanines and transfer corridors along the new line are spacious and well-lit. They are also "ADA-compatible," or would be if there was an ADA-like law in Singapore (the older lines are not).
On the route map, I noticed a notation for the "Sengkang LRT System," so I rode out to the transfer station for that route. I expected a street-running light rail system, but was surprised to find that it is an elevated peoplemover very similar to what one finds at airports now, such as Newark, San Francisco, and (soon to open) JFK. It runs through a community that reminds me of dozens of Co-op Cities side-by-side -- hundreds of high-rise apartment houses, but all very modern. The LRT appears to be the primary mode of transport for what are tens of thousands of residents.
The LRT is a single car automated peoplemover (manufactured by Kawasaki Heavy Industries) that operates in an elevated guideway. Singaporian youngsters seem to have the same fascination we did (do?)... looking out the railfan window. The Sengkang line consists of two loops, one to the east and the other to the west of the Sengkang station on the MRT NE line. Currently, only the east loop is in operation; the west loop is due to open later this year. The loop has an outer and inner track, and cars run in opposite direction around the loop. I saw two cars per track, and so with a running time of about 11 minutes around the loop, there's a car about every 5-1/2 minutes in each direction. One can ride around in either direction from all stations. Transfers to/from the MRT are free. The one-way ride to central Singapore is S$2.80 (about US$1.60), though since I did not leave the system I was able to railfan to/from my hotel's station for the minimum S$0.80 fare (there's supposedly a maximum time for riding before a surcharge is levied, but the faregate didn't seem to notice or care).
The system map shows another LRT route on the other side of the island branching from the Chao Chu Kang station on the older North-South line; I did not have a chance to get there, but I assume it is similar.
KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA
You are all no doubt aware of NYC's transit "system" pre WWII: when private companies owned everything, and there was little, if any cooperation. Such is how we find Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia's transit system today, even though most of it is new build.
There are three urban mass transit lines, the "STAR LRT," "PUTRA LRT," and Monorail. Each is private, and idependently owned and operated. Each uses a different technology. Separate fares are required for each line (with one exception), even when transferring.
STAR (Sistem Transit Aliran Ringan" is an elevated, driver-operated line. It initially opened in 1996 after six years of construction, and was completed two years later. There are 25 stations, and is 27km in length (about two-thirds at grade and one-third elevated). Maximum speed of the trains is 70km/hr, but they rarely exceed 35km/hr. Fares are distance-based, and range from RM0.70 to RM2.80 (RM1 = about US$0.30). Stored value cards are used, and can be purchased from machines or agents. A Monthly Travel Card is RM70.
PUTRA (Projek Usahasamam Transit Ringan Automatik) is an automated (non-attended) line operated by two-car unitized/articulated trains that began operation in 1998, and was completed in 2001. Total length is 29km, all of which is elevated except 4km that is underground. The entire system is accessible, and underground stations are air conditioned, featuring platform screen doors. Fares are distance-based, and range from RM0.70 to RM2.40. Stored value cards are used, and can be purchased from machines or agents, and the RM70 Monthly Travel Card is available as well.
While the PUTRA and STAR lines interchange at "KL Sentral Station," there are no free transfers. The exception is that commuters can purchase a dual-line Monthly Travel Card, good for unlimited rides on both systems, for RM125.
The most interesting line is the Monorail, which opened August 31, 2003. It runs 8km through KL, and is an operator-controlled line using two-car/unitized articulated trainsets. Entirely above ground, fares are distance-based, ranging from RM1.20 to RM2.50. Stored value cards must be purchased from agents, and there are no unlimited card options. While the Monorail intersects the PUTRA and STAR lines in a few places, there are no free transfers. And curiously, the Monotrail terminal at KL Sentral Station is about a block away from the station itself, making transfers difficult, especially with luggage. KL Sentral Station is strange in its own way, in that it's not "central," but on the edge of the main business district. It is not to be confused with KL Center City ("KLCC"), where the Patronas Towers are located -- that's a few km away via mass transit or taxi.
The above lines are what can be classified as the standard urban mass transit. KL also has a number of commuter rail lines, similar in operation to European systems. The most recent, the KLIA Ekspress opened in April, 2002, and is a 32km line joining Kuala Lumpur International Airport with KL Sentral Station. The journey takes 28 minutes, and the four-car unitized/articualted trainset is operator-controlled and outfitted for airport travelers, with luggage racks and video entertainment. Cost for a one-way ride is RM35.
BANGKOK, THAILAND
Here's an update to the summary I wrote a few years back. The BTS/Skytrain is just as I left it, and nothing has chanced since my last report. The system is a miracle as it passes over the gridlocked streets. From my hotel, it's a 17-minute ride to the Mo Chit terminal; easily 90 minutes by taxi. The air conditioning in the trains is incredible. The entire system is elevated (a towering 40 feet above sthe street), and four sets of doors open in each car at every stop. Yet the interiors remain COLD while it's very muggy 95F outside.
I think I'm going to apply for a "driver" job. The train is ATO; the operator just closes the doors. I have mastered the announcements, "Sa tani toe pai: Ploen Chit. Next station, Ploen Chit."
The Bangkok Post recently reported that the Thai government is initiating a six-year, US$400 million plan to improve the horrible traffic problem. Over half of that will go towards rail transit, including nearly 30km of extensions to the BTS/Skytrain.
The Bangkok subway's ("METRO") first portion is slated to open next April. At an MIT Alumni Club of Thailand dinner I heard one of our alums talk about the system -- he has consulted for the system (it's a private company design/build/operate). Here's a preview from an informative Web site. A while back there was an article in an MIT newsletter about it.
Chuck
It's another rant against booth closings, but oddly also has an anti-Station Agent slant. There's a dig against Metrocard in it, too.
Was this car set on fire or something, or did something uber freaky happen to those maps?
I also boarded a 5 train with completely dead HVAC, throughout the entire train. Yea it was really cold onboard, but on the upside, it did make for some great announcements. If only the train didn't go into the yard and went into brooklyn again... :(
It was a very poor printing job on that sign - the red ink faded.
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Early on, he said that due to the large number of people, Amtrak would not allow the tour to visit any of the non-public spaces. He went outside the station for at least 30 minutes. It was windy and I wasn't dressed warmly enough. So I split the tour after about 45 minutes.
He mentioned something that really interested me. Before the tunnels connecting New Jersey and New York were built, there were several plans to build a bridge across the Hudson. Gustav Lindenthal, the designer of the venerable Hell Gate Bridge, had a plan to build a bridge across the Hudson around 57th Street which would carry 16 lanes of automobile and truck traffic, 4 trolley tracks and 12 train tracks for passenger and freight trains.
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Boo! When I go on the tour, that's what I want to see!
Cool! Did you "Stick it to the man!"?
The ferry closed when the Newburgh-Beacon bridge opened.
I rode the ferry many times as a child. We lived west of the Hudson in Middletown, and my father worked on the other side of the river in Beacon. So, he took the ferry everyday. I would ride it on those rare days when I got to go to work with my father.
On those rare instances when the weather would become so severe that the river would freeze, it would be necessary to detour either south to the Bear Mountain Bridge or north to the Mid-Hudson Bridge (Poughkeepsie) to cross the river.
To bring it on topic, we would also sometimes park the car in Newburgh, take the ferry to Beacon, and hop on the New York Central Hudson Division to go into the city. It was much more scenic than the original Port Jervis line from Middletown to Jersey City (and later Hoboken).
I emailed a letter to various people, including a possible fantasy map, and promised to get back with replies. I have now had a reply from the Mayor's office, so here it is below. My main conclusion is that without a unitary authority, South London will never have truly effective rail services in the way that North London does.
**********************************
TfL ref.: CRU/28711
GLA ref.: 231003-6575
26 November 2003
Dear Dr Roberts,
South London rail services
Thank you for your email to Ken Livingstone, sent 22 October. I have been
asked to reply on his behalf, and I apologise for the delay in my doing so.
I have consulted with my colleagues in Transport for Londons (TfL) London
Rail department with regards to the issues you raise. Whilst privitisation of
Londons rail network means that it does not fall within the Mayor or TfLs
jurisdiction, our London Rail group is able to monitor and influence individual
train operators considerably. They have provided me with the following
information.
Firstly, regarding the Overground Network (ON) initiative, London Rail have
noted your comments concerning the reduction of train service frequency,
which has occurred on many lines, during the evenings and on Sundays.
They also wanted to emphasise that these changes go against the policy set
out in the Mayor's Transport Strategy, which set a minimum train frequency
level of four per hour on any given route in the GLA area. TfL have, however,
funded additional weekday evening services on the route between London
and Dartford via Greenwich, as a pilot operation. TfL, in conjunction with the
train operators, are keen to extend this to other routes following evaluation.
You also mention the train service provision on the South Central area
network and suggest some infrastructure enhancements. I understand that in
its bid for a 20 year franchise (which was submitted to the Strategic Rail
Authority (SRA) in 2001), South Central went some way to addressing issues
relating to the rationalisation of services into London termini. This bid also
included funding for infrastructure enhancement, among them being the
addition of a flyover in the Windmill Bridge junction area. Earlier this year,
however, the SRA announced that it was awarding a shorter seven-year
franchise. This involved the SRA taking responsibility for improvements to the
network, and the operators requirement to undertake such enhancement was
removed.
To assist long-term planning, however, the SRA have introduced what they
have called the Capacity Utilisation Strategy. This will involve the initiation of
a national assessment of network capacity, aiming to provide detailed
analysis of where capacity exists and where line capacity is exceeded. The
objective is to ensure that the current network is fully utilised before any
enhancements are considered. TfL is involved in this process and is
providing the case for Metro-style services, which are seen as an essential
component in developing London's economy and improving leisure journey
opportunities on growth market.
Thirdly, I want to address your more specific enquiries, regarding the journey
opportunities between Barnes and Battersea and between North Dulwich and
East Croydon. The former is included in the ON scheme, and therefore meets
our frequency requirements: frequency maps displayed at ON branded
stations show that there are at least four trains per hour running between
Barnes and Queenstown Road, Battersea. The route between North Dulwich
and East Croydon is not yet included in the ON scheme. However, there are
four direct trains per hour running on this route.
Finally, London Rail informed me that TfL are currently working with the train
operator and the SRA to plug the gap in service provision at Penge West and
Anerley, in order that these stations meet the four trains per hour requirement.
Similarly, the route between London Bridge and Norwood Junction is not part
of the initial pilot routes for ON. However, in conjunction with the train
operator and other industry partners, TfL are identifying routes to include in
future phases of the ON concept.
I hope that this information is of interest to you, and that you begin to notice
improvements in south Londons transport network. And, once again, thank
you for taking the time to bring your concerns and suggestions to the Mayors
attention. I have copied your email and wonderful South London Lines
Fantasy Map to London Rail for their records.
Best wishes,
Lois Lee
Customer Relations
By the way, the 7-year franchises mean that the enhancements will never get done. SRA doesn't have nearly enough money just to fund the MAINTENANCE of the network, let alone renewal-enhancement. The private sector have already indicated that they are unwilling to put in real capital if their franchises could get yanked so easily (as occurred in the case of Connex), and without private sector capital and some mechanism to allow market power in the passenger rail markets, there will never be enough money to invest unless government bonds some kind of revenue stream. The way I see it, the passenger rail industry in the UK is always going to be regulated, and the franchisees don't really have 'franchises', they really have 'purchase-of-service contracts' that involves government planning and funding of services, but private service delivery. The model is somewhat similar to Chicago's BN-West corridor.
AEM7
It's the only non-Amtrak rail corridor in the country that have true Express/Local passenger rail service (i.e. it involves overtakes -- which incidentally is how the TrainGirl accident could happen). It's the only Metra diesel line to consistently achieve more than 95% on-time performance. It's the Metra line with the highest ridership.
Is it any good? In terms of service, I think it's pretty good, not usually found where freight railroads own the tracks and operate the trains. Does the model work for Britain? Perhaps, but the government will also have to be willing to fund the franchisees at the same level that Metra funds Burlington Northern.
(Don't ask me how much the BN contract is worth -- that is one of the industry's best guarded secrets).
AEM7
The UndergrounD has but a token presence suth of the Thames. This has been noted more than once on Subtalk, but some posters thought that the south London rail network provided satisfactory service in lieu of UndergrounD rail. While the rails are there, the frequency of service, evidently, is not.
AEM-7's post is very interesting. The larger issue above it is the lack of effective advocacy for London's ppoorer areas.
In fact, there are some incredibly wealthy parts of South London, such as Dulwich and Sydenham, and perfectly reasonable areas such as Forest Hill and Honor Oak. Its not all Peckham and New Cross. I think that the main problem is that since the second world war, a succession of second rate Underground managers have found it hard enough managing the network they inherited, and have been scared ******** at the thought of any further massive enlargements to their network by taking on BR lines. You just have to look at the abandoned Northern Line extensions to see this.
Easy to blame the managers -- have you looked at the financial constraint they are operating under? Did you know that the LU is the only metro system in a developed country that I am aware of to manage a farebox recovery of more than 98%?
AEM7
I would venture to say that certainly the top 5, and perhaps even the top 8 or 10 subway systems in the world, ranked by ridership (Moscow is number 1), have the critical mass of passengers needed to accomplish this, but may not if the fare is set too low. It also helps that heavy rail, per passenger is inherently cheaper to operate (notice I didn't say construct; I said operate) than light rail or bus systems.
It reminds me of an episode of the TV series "Yes Minister", where the Minister of Adminstrative Affairs is advised that what's needed is an "integrated transport policy" but nobody knows what the phrase means.
I have consulted with my colleagues in Transport for Londons (TfL) London Rail department with regards to the issues you raise. Whilst privitisation of Londons rail network means that it does not fall within the Mayor or TfLs jurisdiction, our London Rail group is able to monitor and influence individual train operators considerably.
So apparently the Mayor's office claims to have influence but denies any responsibility.
It seems they are trying to decide which other lines to include under the "Overground Network" branding, and thinking of increasing some evening and weekend services to four trains per hour; they are also thinking about stopping more trains at Anerley and Penge West. The SRA have decided not to build a flyover at Windmill junction (just north of East Croydon). They have answered your specific (rhetorical) questions about how to get from one place to another by using the phrase "journey opportunities".
Regarding the main idea of your plan (simplified service) they say "South Central went some way to addressing issues relating to the rationalisation of services into London termini." but that any such idea was canned when SRA took charge, presumably because SRA holds the purse strings. As for your fantasy map, they have filed it.
Well at least they added some entertainment value!
Just as well I didn't send them my fantasy Underground map. That would have given them something to think about.
So apparently the Mayor's office claims to have influence but denies any responsibility."
Sounds like New York.
On the South Eastern suburban lines from Charing Cross (CX) and Cannon Street (CS), there is a well-known bottleneck at London Bridge. CX and CS have just two tracks each at this point. CX and CS each handle about 25 TPH (peak).
South of London Bridge there are again four tracks, but trains are no longer sorted by terminus; they are sorted by nominal speed. The pair of tracks to the southwest is called "fast" and the pair to the northeast is called "slow". Thus there are essentially four routes: CX - fast tracks, CS - fast tracks, CX - slow tracks and CS - slow tracks. Two of these four routes (Charing Cross - slow tracks and Cannon Street - fast tracks) intersect at grade.
There is no grade separation in the London Bridge area, resulting in large numbers of trains crossing the paths of other trains going both in the same direction and in opposite directions. It seems to me that this must be an operational nightmare, and it is really quite amazing that actually works at all.
The simplification that I have in mind is to separate the Charing Cross and Cannon Street lines. I would dedicate the "fast" pair of tracks to Charing Cross and dedicate the "slow" pair of tracks to Cannon Street, and eliminate the other two routes through London Bridge - the two that intersect.
Passengers who wanted the other terminus could change at London Bridge (the non-terminal part of the station), through which all CX and CS trains pass. The result would be to eliminate completely all crossings at grade of trains going in opposite directions, and to reduce crossings at grade of trains going in the same direction. This simplification, I believe, should allow more trains to run safely on this very busy stretch of line, while providing more frequent services from a known terminus.
Dwell times at London Bridge might well increase due to more passengers changing trains there, but that should not matter. The station itself has six through platforms, three per terminus, and the two middle platforms (2 and 5) are reversible. By using the reversible middle platforms in the peak direction, dwell time can be doubled without limiting headways.
As a user of Liverpool Street, no one using our lines has a choice of City and WE destinations. We get by.
This change would increase reliability and capacity. But can the terminals handle more trains? It has always struck me that CX is a very slick operation indeed, about as efficient and well run as any terminal station could be. Could anything more be squeezed in?
There was a big proposal in Rail Magazine a couple of years ago for a combined simplification project as an alternative to Thameslink 2000. To my irritation, I have now found that I have not kept it. Does this ring any bells with anyone?
Charing X is effectively two stations like Flushing Main St (minus the added complication of the express track on the approaches) alongside eachother. Platforms 1-3 (the Slow Lines station) has a theoretically more efficient layout than Flushing. Platforms 4-6 are theoretically identical in efficiency to Flushing.
Today there are 17tph out of Charing X between 1800 and 1859. IINM, in rush hour there are 24tph+ out of Flushing Main St. This gives Charing X station a capacity of 48tph+. The problem is of course between Metropolitan Jns and N Kent E Jn, including London Bridge Station.
There was a big proposal in Rail Magazine a couple of years ago for a combined simplification project as an alternative to Thameslink 2000. To my irritation, I have now found that I have not kept it. Does this ring any bells with anyone?
No, but it would be a bloody good idea.
But Max is right that my proposed simplification would inconvenience some people, and those people would complain. Among the most vocal could be commuters from Cannon Street wanting to reach destinations such as Tunbridge Wells, only served by the "fast" tracks; they don't even want to stop at London Bridge, let alone change there.
Unfortunately I don't see Rail Magazine, but the article sounds very interesting.
Thameslink 2000 would have solved the problem but it seems to be in limbo; from the archives of www.railjournal.com (January 2003):
"The Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) in Britain has announced its strategic plan for 2003. The plan does not include new funding for the railway, but, instead, the SRA says it is a stepping stone towards a submission for rail investment which it will make ahead of the governments spending review at the start of 2004.
Some major projects, however, have been postponed under the latest plan. These include upgrading of the East Coast Main Line, and Crossrail, the planned new east-west line across London. Thameslink 2000, the planned development of key routes running north-south across London has also been sidelined, though the SRA blames the government for causing the delay by insisting on a review of parts of the proposed route."
It would be nice to solve two merging problems in one and take the Brighton Fast Lines North of New X Gate and put them on an El structure over Ldn Bridge HL (and a new 4 track section from Borough Mkt to Metropolitan "C" Jns) before going over the Blackfriars Bridge.
But Max is right that my proposed simplification would inconvenience some people, and those people would complain. Among the most vocal could be commuters from Cannon Street wanting to reach destinations such as Tunbridge Wells, only served by the "fast" tracks; they don't even want to stop at London Bridge, let alone change there.
Yes, but it would allow frequency improvements out in places just like Tunbridge Wells, so they would save more time waiting than they'd lose in the change.
These include upgrading of the East Coast Main Line
Hang on, wasn't that upgraded just a few years ago. More important would be 4 tracks reinstated on the Midland Main Line, at least as far as Syston South Jn, preferably Trent Jn. Oh and can someone PLEASE sort out that mess Bedford Midland is.
Based on the excellent track diagrams that you recommended, James, it does seem that both Charing Cross and Cannon Street have enough platforms to turn more trains, but London Bridge is the bottleneck. That bottleneck was made slightly worse when some Thameslink trains were routed via London Bridge.
Me: More than slightly. The Thameslink trains worsen the situation a lot. This could be avoided by sending the Bedford-Brighton Thameslink service via Elephant & Castle, Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace to East Croydon instead of through London Bridge. (A few peak-hour one do go that way because there isn't capacity to take then all through London Bridge in the peak. I always seem to get one of them when I make a morning arrival at Gatwick Airport from the USA!) The arguments against sending them that way routinely are that (a) London Bridge is useful for connections and (b) the sinuous two-track route through Tulse Hill is much slower than the straight four-track main line from London Bridge to East Croydon. Indeed without the Thameslink trains nothing much would use the express tracks on that route these days. Unfortunately both these arguments are valid. People coming from Brighton could reach the deep tube lines by a connection at Elephant & Castle, but it isn't a brilliant interchange, with a walk through a shopping centre between the National Rail station and the tube station. People coming from Bedford trying to reach Kent - who currently get lots of choices, often with a same-platform (not even cross-platform) connection at London Bridge - would get nothing but a half-hourly Catford Loop train from Blackfriars, though. Much of the expenditure for the delayed Thameslink 2000 scheme centres specifically on the Borough Market Junction-Metropolitan Junction bottleneck. And most of the poor timekeeping on Thameslink stems from it too.
David:
But Max is right that my proposed simplification would inconvenience some people, and those people would complain. Among the most vocal could be commuters from Cannon Street wanting to reach destinations such as Tunbridge Wells, only served by the "fast" tracks; they don't even want to stop at London Bridge, let alone change there.
Me: Greater objection could be expected from those passengers whose trains would now *all* go into Cannon Street. Charing Cross is the best-situated of all London's termini (it's right on Trafalgar Square, after all). Cannon Street is situated where no-one wants to go unless they work in The City, which is dead in the evenings and weekends, and Cannon Street tube station is served only by the District/Circle Line, versus those lines plus two of the deep tubes at Charing Cross/Embankment tube stations. And more bus routes too.
This otherwise excellent scheme would see almost everybody getting off Cannon St-bound trains at London Bridge and packing on to the Charing Cross-bound trains, except in the weekday peaks when a significant number of City-bound passengers would do the reverse.
The situation at Cannon Street/Charing Cross is a direct consequence of the historical shift in employment patterns. Formerly most commuters worked in The City and the West End was an entertainment area. Now far more people work in the West End and it's still an entertainment area as well. This exactly parallels Downtown/Midtown New York. Max is right that commuters from the east into London have to use a City terminus (Liverpool Street) without the option; trouble is, Kent commuters *have* had the option and won't like it taken from them.
Much of the expenditure for the delayed Thameslink 2000 scheme centres specifically on the Borough Market Junction-Metropolitan Junction bottleneck. And most of the poor timekeeping on Thameslink stems from it too.
It sounds as if you like Thameslink 2000. I am inclined to agree, but there are some possible snags such as dwell times and the problem of coordinating 24 TPH from so many distant places. The Inspector's report dismissed those concerns, focusing instead on architectural issues such as not wanting to make "incremental changes" to London Bridge station, which he thought unworthy of a world class city. The supposed architectural "deficiencies", the first of which was the design of London Bridge station, were enough to put the project on hold.
According to Network Rail (see here): "Network Rail is undertaking an environmental impact assessment (EIA) for the scheme as a whole and this will lead to the production of a new Environmental Statement (as requested by the ODPM) for the project next year. A starting point in the EIA process is the preparation of a scoping and methodology report. This was made available for consultation at the end of July 2003." They don't seem to be in a hurry to start the actual engineering work. Perhaps they cannot decide what to do, or cannot find the money, or both.
My simplification plan cannot compete with Thameslink 2000. I put it forward as a cheap alternative that could be implemented if Thameslink 2000 gets canned.
Greater objection could be expected from those passengers whose trains would now *all* go into Cannon Street.
Agreed. The Dartford lines via Woolwich and via Bexleyheath would only get Cannon Street trains. I would hope to compensate by running more Cannon Street trains. All would stop at London Bridge, with its two tube lines, and Cannon Street itself is on the District line and is very close to Bank on the Central line. The Bexleyheath line also has some trains to Victoria. The Dartford loop line via Sidcup and the Mid Kent line to Hayes would get trains to both termini, with some stopping at Lewisham and some bypassing Lewisham. Arguably however, at least on the outward bound journey, it is better to have a frequent service from one known terminus than two less frequent services from two termini.
With London Bridge headways of 3 min 20 sec, two platforms at London Bridge could handle 36 TPH, but that might be more than the two termini could handle with their two-track approaches. Charing Cross currently turns 28 TPH (peak) and Cannon Street turns 24 TPH (peak). I would increase both to the maximum possible. Cannon Street may not the most popular destination, but it does have the capacity to turn a good many trains, which is a limiting factor in the peak hours in the absence of Thameslink 2000.
A second Thameslink job would be a nice idea: Cannon St - Moorgate (GN) tunnel anyone?
No, there are 7 from Borough Market Junction (1m50c), through London Bridge (1m70c) to Blue Anchor Jn (3m25c). Then from Blue Anchor Jn to Edward St Jn (4m38c) it is 6 track. Then from N Kent E Jn to just South-East of New Cross (4m68c) it is 5 track. It is then 4 track to Orpington (14m7c).
You are however right about them being sorted by speed:
1 Down Slow
2 Slow Reversible (line ends just past New Cross)
3 Up Slow
4 Down Fast
5 Down Relief (line ends at Edward St Jn)
6 Up Fast
7 Up Passenger Loop (no platform at London Bridge, line ends at Blue Anchor Jn)
The simplification that I have in mind is to separate the Charing Cross and Cannon Street lines. I would dedicate the "fast" pair of tracks to Charing Cross and dedicate the "slow" pair of tracks to Cannon Street, and eliminate the other two routes through London Bridge - the two that intersect.
If 4 tracks could finally be achieved from Metropolitan "C" Jn (1m37c) to Borough Market Jn (1m50c), the simplification could be taken to its logical conclusion:
1 Down Cannon St - Greenwich
2 Up Cannon St - Greenwich
3 Down Slow
4 Up Slow
5 Down Fast
6 Up Fast
7 Reversible Passenger Loop (diversionary only)
Dwell times at London Bridge might well increase due to more passengers changing trains there, but that should not matter.
Unfortuantely dwell time at Ldn Bridge is the limiting factor on the entire line's capacity. I would reopen Spa Road and Southwark Park stations and open a new Deptford Park station (for ELL interchange) on the Slow and Greenwich Lines to encourage people to change before Ldn Bridge and reduce the dwell times there.
My description was over-simplified in several ways. In particular I neglected the Greenwich line because only about 8 TPH (peak) go that way. The remaining 45 or so go via New Cross. There are only four tracks between New Cross and St Johns.
If 4 tracks could finally be achieved from Metropolitan "C" Jn (1m37c) to Borough Market Jn (1m50c)
Yes, if only! A distance of 13 chains = 286 yards! But there were objections to doing this as part of the Thameslink 2000 plan, when it was said that they would have to chop off part of the London Bridge station train shed, which is a listed building.
Unfortuantely dwell time at Ldn Bridge is the limiting factor on the entire line's capacity.
I am surprised to hear that. How long are those dwell times?
The way I would use the London Bridge platforms is:
1 Cannon Street Slow Down
2 Cannon Street Slow peak direction (Up a.m. & Down p.m.)
3 Cannon Street Slow Up
4 Charing Cross Fast Down
5 Charing Cross Fast peak direction (Up a.m. & Down p.m.)
6 Charing Cross Fast Up
In the morning peak, alternate trains from the slow track would stop at platform 3 or 2 before continuing to Cannon Street, while alternate trains from the fast track would stop at platform 6 or 5 before continuing to Charing Cross.
In the evening peak, alternate trains from Cannon Street would stop at platform 1 or 2 before continuing to the slow track, while alternate trains from Charing Cross stop at platform 4 or 5 before continuing to the fast track.
According to the track diagram (surprisingly) track 5 is not connected to the up Charing Cross line; that connection would have to be made by adding a crossover. I cannot see that any other physical changes would be needed.
Using four platforms in the peak direction, as shown above, assuming a total of 60 TPH (an increase over the current 53) average headway per platform would be four minutes, which certainly seems long enough.
Class 319: dwell time 1m57s, minimum headway 3m53s
Class 365: dwell time 1m32s, minimum headway 3m24s
Planned new Thameslink 2000 stock: dwell time 1m24s, minimum headway 3m15s
I can understand long dwell times at London Bridge, but why are the headways so much longer than the dwell times?
The re-occupation time (the time it takes for one train to arrive after the previous one leaving) accounts for most of the rest. At London Bridge, this is:
319s 1m26s
365s 1m22s
Planned new Thameslink 2000 stock 1m21s
The rest of the time giving the headway is the standard perturbation margin of 30s (this is to allow for random events and still maintain punctuality).
Those London Bridge dwell times and re-occupation times are very long compared with the busiest tube stations. I wonder why, especially if slam-door rolling stock is being phased out. BTW when they tried double decker trains with slam doors, dwell times must have been even longer because there were fewer doors and more passengers; no wonder the double deckers were scrapped when South East suburban platforms were lengthened from 8-car to 10-car trains. See here.
On stretches of line without stops, such as the lines passing through Borough Market junction, headways must be much shorter than at station platforms, so that 28 TPH can pass through Borough Market junction on their way to Charing Cross, for a headway of just over two minutes. That would include re-occupation time and perturbation margin but of course no dwell time.
I suppose those headways are peak-hour times in the peak direction? Have you any data for the peak-hour in the off-peak direction? Headways must be shorter for the Cannon Street service to operate on one platform in the off-peak direction.
According to this site:
"Although all platform lines are reversible the normal flow of traffic is:
Cannon Street lines:
1 - up,
2 - up (morning peak), reversible (off peak), down (evening peak),
3 - down.
Charing X and Thameslink lines:
4 - down,
5 - reversible,
6 - up.
7 - up through road for Charing X."
However only one platform can be used by Charing Cross bound trains that stop at London Bridge. That is platform 6. Platform 5 cannot be used for "up" trains because it is only connected to the "down" track from Charing Cross, which is filled to capacity with "down" trains. Effectively platform 5 is not reversible.
The timetables show that out of the 28 trains arriving at Charing Cross between 8 and 9 a.m. 14 stop at London Bridge and 14 do not stop there. I conclude that the 14 trains do not stop because they cannot stop; they must use track 7, which has no platform! So the number of trains stopping at London Bridge is limited by platform capacity, not by lack of demand.
In the a.m. peak hour, no Thameslink trains run from London Bridge to Blackfriars. Brighton to Bedford trains are diverted via Tulse Hill, presumably due to shortage of platform capacity at London Bridge and track capacity at Borough Market.
If dwell times are the limiting factor, what is needed to ease the squeeze is more platforms, longer (12-car) trains, fewer stopping trains, or fewer passengers! 12-car trains should be easy on those routes that already have 12-car platforms.
The sliding door stock in question has only 2 doors per car (at the 1/4 and 3/4 positions). Tube stock has more doors on smaller cars. So physical boarding time is longer.
Tube trains are on much more consistent routes; at worst passengers on a given platform have two different branches/stopping pattern services to choose from, and any given service will always stop at the same platform. Whilst trains stopping at London Bridge are operating on a complex network, and don't always use the same platforms. So at lot more checking and milling about on the part of the passengers.
Or in short, the tube is a transit rail operation whilst London Bridge is a very busy station on a commuter rail operation.
You have identified the main problem. The answer is for all new rolling stock to have at least 3, preferably 4, doors on each side.
Tube trains are on much more consistent routes; at worst passengers on a given platform have two different branches/stopping pattern services to choose from
At "worst", it's at least four - at Victoria westbound for instance, on the same platform you have: Circle via Paddington, Ealing Broadway, Richmond, and Wimbledon District trains. At Great Portland Street westbound in Rush Hour, it's six before you start to consider Fast, Semi-Fast and stopping trains (Watford (Semi & Stopping), Chesham (Fast), Amersham (Fast & Semi), Uxbridge (Stopping), Hammersmith, Circle via Paddington).
Whilst trains stopping at London Bridge are operating on a complex network, and don't always use the same platforms. So at lot more checking and milling about on the part of the passengers.
That's because London Bridge is seriously badly designed. There needs to be a significant rebuild at track level. This can only be done on weekends, so it'll be years of trains only going to Cannon St or only going to Charing X on weekends.
Or in short, the tube is a transit rail operation whilst London Bridge is a very busy station on a commuter rail operation.
The boundary is blurred. What is Rickmansworth a station on? How about Gunnersbury? Transit principles of operation are clearly better as the higher ridership shows, so adjustments should be in that direction.
My bad. Having comprehensively used 'tube' in its more informal sense (=London Underground) throughout this thread, I then went and subconciously mixed it up with its narrower sense (=the deep level network of London Underground). Shows how careful you have to be when using ambiguous terms.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that the sub-surface network of London Underground (where all the examples above come from) is that stellar in its dwell-time performance anyway. Anybody got any figures?.
Okay, then you have three - Edgware, Mill Hill East, and High Barnet on the Northern Line, before taking short turns into account and the fact that there are two branches in Central London.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that the sub-surface network of London Underground (where all the examples above come from) is that stellar in its dwell-time performance anyway.
Seeing as they manage 28tph off peak through Earl's Court, the dwell times must compare quite favourably to South Eastern.
Do you know if that is that on one platform, or both platforms in the same direction, or even all four platforms (ie both directions). If it is on a single platform that is certainly very impressive given the routing complexities at both ends of the station.
It's both in the same direction. The impressiveness about it really comes from how ineptly the junctions at either end are designed - really it limits capacity to that of one platform.
The only thing that saves Earls Court from total ineptitude is that there is a flying (or more accurately burrowing) junction for the Westbound trains from Ken High Street.
I would wait for an Edg Rd or a Hi Ken every time. The Circle sucks.
The only thing that saves Earls Court from total ineptitude is that there is a flying (or more accurately burrowing) junction for the Westbound trains from Ken High Street.
Pity about the Western junctions...
Richmond/Ealing Broadway->South Ken and beyond
Wimbledon->Edgware Road
Wimbledon->South Ken and beyond (does this run?)
Olympia->Ken High Street (well could be Edgware Road, but we know it isnt)
This is a change from the last map I looked at where all the District services were squashed into one hollow circle.
What combinations do the points permit?
What runs (weekdays, off-peak) is:
Ealing Broadway - Upminster
Richmond - Upminster
Wimbledon - Tower Hill
Olympia - Hi Ken
Wimbledon - Edgware Rd
(all 6tph)
Different services run peak times and weekends.
This is a change from the last map I looked at where all the District services were squashed into one hollow circle.
I'd say it's an improvement.
What combinations do the points permit?
Track 1 comes from W Ken and goes to Hi Ken.
Track 2 comes from W Brompton (flyover) and goes to S Ken.
Track 3 comes from S Ken and goes to W Ken.
Track 4 comes from Hi Ken (diveunder) and goes to W Brompton.
The Olympia line merges into the lines to/from W Ken.
West of the station you can switch (on level):
1 to 2
3 to 4
4 to 3
East of the station:
1 to 2
2 to 1
3 to 4
The most efficient service pattern would be:
Ealing/Richmond/Olympia TO Hi Ken/Edg Rd
Wimbledon TO Upminster/Plaistow/Barking/Whitechapel/Tower Hill
Hi Ken/Edg Rd TO Wimbledon
Upminster/Plaistow/Barking/Whitechapel/Tower Hill TO Ealing/Richmond/Olympia
Needless to say, this would be VERY confusing (and there would be HUGE rolling stock problems).
- Ealing Bway TO Edgware Rd TO Wimbledon TO Upminster TO Ealing Bway
- Richmond TO Edgware Rd TO Wimbledon TO Upminster TO Richmond
- Olympia TO Hi Ken TO Putney Bridge TO Tower Hill TO Olympia
D Stock is too long for the platforms North of Hi Ken, whilst C Stock has clearance issues in the Dagenham area.
I wonder if resignalling the area would help.
I suppose those headways are peak-hour times in the peak direction?
Yes. They were around when people were pointing out the flaws in Thameslink 2000.
Have you any data for the peak-hour in the off-peak direction?
No. AFAIK, Ldn Bridge is not a problem in that direction, despite the long re-occupation time.
The timetables show that out of the 28 trains arriving at Charing Cross between 8 and 9 a.m. 14 stop at London Bridge and 14 do not stop there. I conclude that the 14 trains do not stop because they cannot stop; they must use track 7, which has no platform!
Yes, so you are right that two platforms are needed on the Charing X Lines in the peak direction.
What I would like to see is:
Down Cannon St - Greenwich
PLATFORM 1/2
Up Cannon St - Greenwich
Down Slow
PLATFORM 3/4
Reversible Slow
PLATFORM 5/6
Up Slow
Down Fast
PLATFORM 7/8
Reversible Fast
PLATFORM 9/10
Up Fast
Of course, there would only be six tracks either side of the station, instead of eight.
This would mean the demolition of some of the terminal platforms (8-9 or 10). I would then make platforms 11-13 solely Brighton Slow and platforms 14-16 solely SLL. The Brighton Fast I would put onto an El after New X Gate over the Charing X tracks, with platforms 17 and 18, then joining the Holborn line.
In the a.m. peak hour, no Thameslink trains run from London Bridge to Blackfriars. Brighton to Bedford trains are diverted via Tulse Hill, presumably due to shortage of platform capacity at London Bridge and track capacity at Borough Market.
You can add to that the problems of switching from the SE Lines to the Brighton Fast Lines.
If dwell times are the limiting factor, what is needed to ease the squeeze is more platforms, longer (12-car) trains, fewer stopping trains, or fewer passengers! 12-car trains should be easy on those routes that already have 12-car platforms.
The problem there is that longer trains take longer to clear the signal blocks, giving longer reoccupation time. I understand that Ldn Bridge is designed for an optimum of 8 car trains.
Fewer passengers is the most realistic one. Just about no-one actually wants to be at London Bridge (apart from King's Medical Students), so having more trains to Charing X and better interchange facilities elsewhere will help to get rid of the problem.
I was looking for a cheaper solution that would not meet with so much public opposition. My plan differs from yours in that (a) I would not dedicate two tracks to the Greenwich line, because I don't have enough tracks and (b) I would divert Thameslink to run via Herne Hill and Tulse Hill to get them out of the way. I want to make the best possible use of the existing tracks through London Bridge without major construction works. Re-signaling may be necessary but it should not anger the public.
I have counted the trains in and out of Cannon Street from 8 to 9 a.m. There are 24 going in but only 10 coming out, all of which stop at London Bridge. I suppose the rest must come out empty, so are not shown in the timetable. All 24 "down" trains including empties must use track 1. That's 24 TPH on platform 1 in the off-peak direction including 10 that stop.
Sometimes two trains leave London Bridge at the exact same minute and exactly four minutes later they both arrive at Cannon Street. I think this means wrong-railing in that one of the two "up" trains runs on the "down" track!
Running above the centre tracks, it would be practically invisible from ground level. Anyway, the Southwark NIMBYs could be placated by removing the old railway viaduct and putting in a more modern less obtrusive structure with the advantage of triple the capacity.
I was looking for a cheaper solution that would not meet with so much public opposition. My plan differs from yours in that (a) I would not dedicate two tracks to the Greenwich line, because I don't have enough tracks
You do, except through London Bridge station itself.
(b) I would divert Thameslink to run via Herne Hill and Tulse Hill to get them out of the way.
I'd rather give Thameslink some useful connections...
I have counted the trains in and out of Cannon Street from 8 to 9 a.m. There are 24 going in but only 10 coming out, all of which stop at London Bridge. I suppose the rest must come out empty, so are not shown in the timetable. All 24 "down" trains including empties must use track 1. That's 24 TPH on platform 1 in the off-peak direction including 10 that stop.
And those 24 are not due to any demand for Cannon St, but because they can't fit through the 13 chain double track section to get to Charing X. Cannon St probably needs 8-12tph.
Sometimes two trains leave London Bridge at the exact same minute and exactly four minutes later they both arrive at Cannon Street. I think this means wrong-railing in that one of the two "up" trains runs on the "down" track!
What nasty operations Borough Market Junction leaves us...
But they can and do carry more passengers by running 10 car trains; in what sense is 8 cars optimal? I suspect they could carry even more passengers by running 12 car trains, and I don't see that dwell times would suffer as there would be more doors per train.
In the sense that headways are minimised at 8 cars.
I suspect they could carry even more passengers by running 12 car trains, and I don't see that dwell times would suffer as there would be more doors per train.
I think it's the reoccupation times that cause problems with longer trains.
You would have the present 6 tracks south of the station, widening to 8 tracks through the station, but how many would go over the viaduct, 6 or 8? And if 6 tracks, how many would lead to Charing Cross and how many to Cannon Street?
Charing Cross needs 4 tracks to fill the gap to Metro junction. With 6 tracks total that would leave only tracks 1 and 2, dedicated in your plan to the Greenwich line, to go to Cannon Street, and I doubt if those trains would be enough for the hordes of people using Cannon Street merely to cross the river. Cannon Street is a popular destination in the peak hours, especially in bad weather! Therefore you would probably want all 8 tracks to continue over the widened viaduct, 4 to each terminus.
Exactly, so it's no big deal in terms of space.
You have shown 10 platforms but I think 8 platforms should be enough for 8 tracks.
10 is better because that will mean that the reversible lines in the station will platform across the platform from other trains in the same direction.
You would have the present 6 tracks south of the station, widening to 8 tracks through the station, but how many would go over the viaduct, 6 or 8? And if 6 tracks, how many would lead to Charing Cross and how many to Cannon Street?
Dn Cannon St Ldn Br 1 Dn Greenwich (1)
Up Cannon St Ldn Br 2 Up Greenwich (2)
Dn Ch X Slow Ldn Br 3 & 4 Dn SE Slow (3)
Up Ch X Slow Ldn Br 5 & 6 Up SE Slow (4)
Dn Ch X Fast Ldn Br 7 & 8 Dn SE Fast (3)
Up Ch X Fast Ldn Br 9 & 10 Up SE Fast (4)
Platforms 4 and 5 share a track. Platforms 8 and 9 share a track.
Cannon Street is a popular destination in the peak hours, especially in bad weather!
But nothing on the scale of Charing X.
Therefore you would probably want all 8 tracks to continue over the widened viaduct, 4 to each terminus.
The point of the extra 2 tracks in the station is to not have capacity limited in the peak direction on the Charing X line.
10 is better because that will mean that the reversible lines in the station will platform across the platform from other trains in the same direction.
The advantage of 10 platforms would be that the game of "guess the platform" would be reduced, but not entirely eliminated.
The advantage of 8 platforms would be less rebuilding and no need to take a slice out of the terminal train shed.
Dn Cannon St Ldn Br 1 Dn Greenwich (1)
Up Cannon St Ldn Br 2 Up Greenwich (2)
This could be a much more serious problem.
Not many trains currently go via Greenwich, because that line has two tracks and no passing loops. Some faster trains go via the Blackheath tunnel, presumably in order to pass the slow trains that go via Greenwich. You could divert some trains to take the Greenwich route if you built passing loops. Even then, the most trains that could go via Greenwich is probably about 12 or 13 TPH peak with the present level of service.
Would that be enough trains to Cannon Street? I am not at all sure, as it's a busy station in the peak hours. I can imagine a crush of people trying to board Cannon Street trains on platform 2, including those first class City types from Tunbridge Wells, in addition to the usual crowd arriving at the London Bridge terminus and a whole lot more coming off Charing Cross bound trains. You could argue that it doesn't matter much because there's also the Northern tube via Bank or if that's too crowded you can take a 10 minute walk over the bridge instead of the 4 minute half-mile train ride from London Bridge to Cannon Street. A people-mover over the bridge would help.
Assuming 12 or 13 TPH could serve Cannon Street. That would leave 40 TPH to Charing Cross; 20 each on the fast and slow lines. That assumes the existing total of 52 or 53 TPH, but the goal should be to run more trains. Realistically, how many trains do you think can be turned around at Charing Cross, given the advantage of segregation of fast and slow tracks? Currently they turn 28 or 29 TPH (peak) on six tracks, and it has the most passengers per platform of any London terminus.
The only lines for which it would not be eliminated would be:
(1) TO Charing X. Seeing as there could be 24tph on both lines, I don't think anyone would complain - it would be just like Vauxhall in the Up direction.
(2) To/from any local stations I'd put between London Bridge and North Kent East Junction (viz. Spa Road, Bermondsey Park, Deptford Park). Again these would have very frequent Charing X - SE Slow service and about half as frequent Cannon St - Greenwich service, so again, no worries.
Some faster trains go via the Blackheath tunnel, presumably in order to pass the slow trains that go via Greenwich.
They'd have a hard time doing that. Ldn Bridge to Charlton via Greenwich all stops is 15 mins. Ldn Bridge to Charlton via Lewisham is 16 mins.
All a fast train on the Greenwich Line would achieve would be to deprive people of local service and reduce ridership. Cannon St to Dartford via Greenwich all stops only takes 41 minutes anyway (4 mins of that is West of Ldn Bridge).
I am not at all sure, as it's a busy station in the peak hours. I can imagine a crush of people trying to board Cannon Street trains on platform 2
Anyone from a Slow Line station would soon learn to change at Deptford Park, Southwark Park, or Spa Road. They'd be more likely to get a seat that way for one thing. So the platform crush at London Bridge would be reduced. Between that and the Northern Line, the City would have enough service.
That would leave 40 TPH to Charing Cross; 20 each on the fast and slow lines. That assumes the existing total of 52 or 53 TPH, but the goal should be to run more trains. Realistically, how many trains do you think can be turned around at Charing Cross, given the advantage of segregation of fast and slow tracks? Currently they turn 28 or 29 TPH (peak) on six tracks, and it has the most passengers per platform of any London terminus.
Seeing as it's effectively two Flushing Main Sts alongside eachother, I'd guess it could handle 48tph. Otherwise, it's in a perfect location to be a tunnel portal and to build a West End distributer line, say, to Vicoria.
The main purposes are to simplify operation and to increase capacity through the London Bridge bottleneck.
Present AM peak TPH is about 24 to Cannon Street plus 28 to Charing Cross; total 52 TPH.
If you want to increase the TPH substantially, you cannot afford to reserve Cannon Street for trains that currently go via Greenwich, because that gives you 6 to Cannon Street and at most 48 to Charing Cross, an overall increase of 2 TPH. There is limited scope for adding more trains to the Greenwich line. The maximum useful TPH on that line is about 10 to 12, if you include a more frequent service plus skip-stops diverted from the Blackheath tunnel. That would make 12 Cannon Street plus 48 Charing Cross = 60 total. If Charing Cross really can turn 48 TPH, I think that's a good plan. But Charing Cross is a main line station with long dwell times, not comparable to Flushing Main Street.
If Charing Cross cannot turn 48 TPH and if you want to increase total TPH as much as possible, you should keep the present 24 TPH to Cannon Street and increase Charing Cross to as many TPH as it can take, perhaps 36 TPH for a total of 60. Cannon Street may not be the best possible destination but it has turning capacity. That would however mean running some slow line trains to Cannon Street, contrary to your plan.
Of course another way to increase capacity, while keeping to your plan, would be to increase train lengths from 10 to 12 cars. Although TPH might fall due to London Bridge being optimized for 8 cars, total train capacity would surely increase.
/----1----\
|----------------------->--- ------------->
Cannon Street *----2----* slow tracks
|-----------------------<--- -------------<
\----3----/
.
.
/----4----\
|----------------------->--- ------------->
Charing Cross *----5----* fast tracks
|-----------------------<--- -------------<
\----6----/
I cannot even try to illustrate the present operation because it is too complicated, and mainly because I don't understand it!
I have now found out, from one Robert Munster who posts on Yahoo groups, why my plan would not work.
In the plan I assigned three London Bridge platforms to Cannon Street terminus and three to Charing Cross. One of the three would be used in each direction and the third one would be used to add capacity in the peak direction.
The plan would not work, simply because one platform would not be enough for all Charing Cross trains in the off-peak direction. The most trains that can stop at London Bridge at one platform is about 20 tph, whereas 28 tph would be needed in the busiest hour. So Charing Cross needs four tracks through London Bridge, which it has, but unfortunately one of the tracks (track 7) has no platform, and so some Charing Cross bound trains cannot stop at London Bridge.
One platform is enough for Cannon Street in the off-peak direction, but only because some peak-hour trains arriving at Cannon Street leave empty for Blackfriars carriage sidings, thus avoiding the London Bridge bottleneck.
My plan also assumed that it would be possible to link London Bridge platform 5 directly to the Charing Cross bound track, but that would be very difficult because there isn't enough room between a bridge girder and the main pedestrian ramp going down to the street from the northwest end of platforms 5 and 6.
This photo, taken from the northwest end London Bridge platform 2, shows the place where tracks 4 and 5 converge just for for a few feet before diverging.
Obviously London does now have a single authority reponsible for (most) transport, in the Mayor and TfL (Transport for London). The problem is that it is not responsible for the surface rail system, as indicated in the response you quote:
Whilst privitisation of Londons rail network means that it does not fall within the Mayor or TfLs jurisdiction,
I think that response is perhaps making a slightly political point. The privatisation itself should not stop TfL replacing the SRA (the UK-wide Strategic Rail Authority) as the franchisor of the South London rail system. A precedent for this has already happened in the Liverpool / Merseyside area, where the local transit authority has taken over the MerseyRail system in that way.
What actually practically prevents this is the way the South London rail system is inseperable from the South East of England rail system, with many trains serving places much further afield than London sharing the same tracks.
Extending the authority of TfL (and hence the Mayor of London) to the leafy lanes of Surrey and Kent is a political non-starter, and even if it did happen it is far from clear that the resulting larger electorate would allow their fast commuter trains to be impacted to allow a better metropolitan service within South London.
So my feeling is that what TfL are trying with their hearts and minds (rather than outright control) ON scheme is probably the best that can be achieved with the current infrastructure.
The only way to get a really good service in South London is for TfL to go out a build a decent segregated infrastructure for it, possibly taking over parts of the existing lines where there is no conflict. I don't think there is anything in the Mayor's, or TfL's, political mandate that prevents them doing this; just good old-fashioned lack of money.
Very few services in South London share tracks with services further afield. London Bridge to Croydon direct is four-tracked, as is the direct line from Victoria via Thornton Heath. Victoria to Crystal Palace and London Bridge to Tulse Hill haven't seen a long distance train in decades. Long distance trains from Victoria mostly go through East Croydon, there is not much at all through Sutton now. The Wimbledon-Sutton line takes Thameslink trains for no good reason. Many lines out of CX/Cannon Street take trains that never venture beyond Hayes (for obvious reasons) or Dartford. Its only a few key intersections that would incur major costs for any of these routes. Its only the lines to Bromley that are impossibly intertwined in this respect.
Coincidently, it is South Central that I feel receives the worst deal of any part of London in terms of rail services and that that would also be easiest to plug into the Underground network, wheareas it is South Eastern that needs to lose some lines so that increased services can be run on the rest. There is less need to plug services out of Waterloo into the Underground, although thanks to plenty of flying junctions and four-tracking, this would also not be particularly difficult.
The track diagrams show that the separation between local and express tracks is not quite so clear cut.
On the main lines from Waterloo the fast and slow lines are completely separate, thanks to a flying junction near Wimbledon. Likewise on the main lines from Victoria the fast and slow lines are completely separate in that the slow lines keep to the east of the fast lines.
But the London Bridge lines via New Cross Gate, although four-tracked, do not have such a clean separation. The slow tracks, with local station platforms, are the outer tracks and therefore fast and slow trains have to cross each others paths when entering or leaving the terminals.
Neither do the Waterloo Windsor lines have a clear separation between fast and slow tracks, for a similar reason.
It's worse than that - they don't just cross: they merge.
However it hardly matters. The 4 tracks from Ldn Bridge and the 4 tracks from Victoria feed into 2 tracks through West Croydon and 4 tracks through East Croydon.
Neither do the Waterloo Windsor lines have a clear separation between fast and slow tracks, for a similar reason.
Reading's scarcely long-distance.
True. London to Reading is about 40 miles straight-line. But that is missing the point.
Reading is no more part of London than Philadelphia is part of New York City (to take an example from another recent thread). Whilst trains from London to Reading use the same tracks as trains providing intra-London service, those tracks need to be controlled by someone whose scope of authority extends to both London and Reading.
That in turn means those tracks cannot be controlled by the Mayor of London or Transport for London, because their authority is limited to London. Substitute Basingstoke, or Guildford, or Brighton, or ... for Reading, and similar arguments apply to most lines in South London.
Whilst that is the case, all the Mayor/TfL can do is persuade and politic for a marginally better intra-London rail service (which is what the ON initiative is about) rather than simply getting on with providing the sort of proper subway-frequency service the tube provides elsewhere in London.
The answer would indeed be to provide properly segregated infrastructure for a South London transit system. That could be done by building new tube lines, or by extensive widening and grade-separation work on the existing routes, or by a mixture of the two. But it would be very expensive, making Second Ave look cheap.
According to you, therefore, London Transport should not operate the Eastern end of the Central and District Lines as they happen to cross into Essex. Instead you would add the comnplication of a second operator. We have to be realistic these days and accept that the area that needs to be served by a London agency is greater than the so called Greater London boundary.
That in turn means those tracks cannot be controlled by the Mayor of London or Transport for London, because their authority is limited to London. Substitute Basingstoke, or Guildford, or Brighton, or ... for Reading, and similar arguments apply to most lines in South London.
The only lines I see as being a serious problem are the Bournemouth and Exeter Main Lines. Everything else is relatively short distance.
The answer would indeed be to provide properly segregated infrastructure for a South London transit system. That could be done by building new tube lines, or by extensive widening and grade-separation work on the existing routes, or by a mixture of the two. But it would be very expensive, making Second Ave look cheap.
The other answer would be a joint transit board for the counties of Kent, Greater London, Surrey, East and West Sussex, Hampshire and Berkshire - namely administering what you have instead of trying to change what you have according to administrative boundaries.
In an ideal world probably not. However the overlaps I'm aware of (Central Line to Epping; District Line to Amersham/Chesham) are relatively short compared to the length of the whole line in question. So adding a separate authority (not necessarily operator) would be counter productive.
That hardly applies to some of the overlaps you seem to be suggesting below. Certainly in the cases of Reading, Guildford, Brighton and Dover more of 50% of the journey would be beyond London and in some cases much more. Which I suggest means that the correct authority (the SRA) is in charge of these lines; why on earth should TfL be involved when its geographical involvement is so low.
We have to be realistic these days and accept that the area that needs to be served by a London agency is greater than the so called Greater London boundary.
No I don't accept that. As soon as you draw administrative boundaries, you create edge cases. Moving the boundaries just moves the edge cases. If you say let us have 'Transport for South East England' rather than 'Transport for London' then the edge case moves to Birmingham. And so on.
Oh and of course that means that whole South East of England (or England; or UK) electorate ends up electing the people who set the investment priorities for the tube and London Buses. So I guess in a sense this would have the desired effect; it would normalise service across London by reducing tube frequencies to 4tph. :-)
The other answer would be a joint transit board for the counties of Kent, Greater London, Surrey, East and West Sussex, Hampshire and Berkshire - namely administering what you have instead of trying to change what you have according to administrative boundaries.
Which would have the same effect. Do you really see the electors of Kent, Surrey, East & West Sussex, Hampshire and Berkshire wanting to spend money on South London services they never use. Rather they would spend it to improve their commuter services and in the process displace the local services in South London even further.
Because, like it or not, London is the main point of those lines.
Moving the boundaries just moves the edge cases.
Except there are clear places to draw the boundaries - eg just North of Bedford, Peterborough etc...
If you say let us have 'Transport for South East England' rather than 'Transport for London' then the edge case moves to Birmingham.
I disagree. Birmingham is anomalous - and then only evenings and Sundays when the train from Marylebone happens to be the same one as that which calls at places like Gerrard's X.
Oh and of course that means that whole South East of England (or England; or UK) electorate ends up electing the people who set the investment priorities for the tube and London Buses.
Which would be appropriate once we repeal the greenbelt legislation that has stifled London for the past half-century.
So I guess in a sense this would have the desired effect; it would normalise service across London by reducing tube frequencies to 4tph. :-)
Don't take the piss. Some outlying lines run 3tph (Woodford-Hainault) or even 2tph (Chalfont-Chesham). Frequencies would be lower on the outer parts of the line, but you'd do away with things like the ON diagram showing that it's possible to change between ON trains at Epsom without mentioning that you'd have to start at Epsom to get a travelcard valid that far out.
Which would have the same effect. Do you really see the electors of Kent, Surrey, East & West Sussex, Hampshire and Berkshire wanting to spend money on South London services they never use.
But people from those counties do use the same services that service South London. And, no, I don't just mean the Effingham Junction to Waterloo Local.
Rather they would spend it to improve their commuter services and in the process displace the local services in South London even further.
I envisage it being rather more like providing a decent metropolitan service, based on the real metropolis as it exists today, not as political interests misdefined it before the 2nd World War.
Short of impassable mountain ranges or ocean straights (both in short supply in southern England) there is no such thing as a clear place to draw a boundary. Everything else is subjective and depends on the perspective of the viewer.
To someone used to the scale of the Los Angeles (or Sydney) it seems obvious that Birmingham and Leicester are part of London; but of course no Leicester or Birmingham resident would ever agree with that.
Likewise I'll bet that any Subtalker residents of Bedford and Peterborough will be scratching their heads and wondering why it is clear the boundary is north and not south of their cities.
And speaking as an adopted resident of Reading, it is transparently obvious to me that the boundary is somewhere between Reading and Slough. But I'd guess if you polled Swindon or Slough residents you get two other quite different answers.
Leicester to London is just about commutable, Brum to London isn't really.
Likewise I'll bet that any Subtalker residents of Bedford and Peterborough will be scratching their heads and wondering why it is clear the boundary is north and not south of their cities.
For the reason that it's how the railway was built.
And speaking as an adopted resident of Reading, it is transparently obvious to me that the boundary is somewhere between Reading and Slough. But I'd guess if you polled Swindon or Slough residents you get two other quite different answers.
Interesting. If I lived in Reading, I'd want the boundary somewhere between Reading and Didcot so that I could benefit from the high frequencies and cheap fares.
Extend the Bakerloo Line to Lewisham and Hayes. New Cross is an important interchange, but not an important traffic generator, so save some money by using the Catford Loop, which once Channel Tunnel trains go will lose its importance, going from Elephant & Castle to Camberwell, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Brockley Interchange, [then diving underground] Lewisham, [back to the surface] the Hayes branch. The other Catford Loop stations are insignificant. Thats got rid of 6tph through London Bridge, and the Hayes Line goes through some very densely populated areas.
Extend the Northern Line WE branch: Brixton, Brixton Hill, Streatham, Streatham Hill: all will be extremely bysy stations, now bring to the surface and you can pretty-well have the line via Thornton Heath to West Croydon and Sutton to yourself without getting in anyone else's way, apart from at Croydon and Sutton. Its hardly rocket science to sort either of these out. Its been done before at Barking and was set to be done at Finsbury Park with the Northern Heights extension.
The Shenfield branch is also entirely self-contained. Bottom line: just because fast and slow trains share tracks in some places, don't write off improvements to South London railways altogether. There are only so many Underground lines available for southwards extension in any case.
I like your plan for the Bakerloo extension. It's quite practical and not too costly, thanks to the "capture" of existing surface lines. The advantage of having the underground capture the Mid Kent (Hayes) line is that it is self-contained. You provide a useful new interchange (at Brockley). And you serve Lewisham, which is an important interchange station. I suppose you have to go underground at Lewisham to keep separate from the surface lines. Operationally it couldn't be simpler.
Your plan would relieve the London Bridge bottleneck by diverting passengers away from it.
One objection to any "capture" is the disruption that would be caused when the changes were being made. You would have to modify the platforms to fit Bakerloo trains, which would be unpopular among people who did not stand to gain. There would be more objections from people who would be permanently deprived of one-seat rides.
The other problem that I see is that the distance from Lewisham to Charing Cross would be longer via your Bakerloo extension, resulting in a longer journey time. From Lewisham to Charing Cross via London Bridge takes 16 minutes. From Lewisham to Charing Cross via Peckham would take 21 minutes if going at the same speed. That extra 5 minutes could deter some passengers from using the Bakerloo as a short cut from Lewisham to the West End. But the line would still be popular in an area lacking underground service; it should easily attract more passengers than the Bakerloo north of Queens Park.
Extend the Northern Line WE branch: Brixton, Brixton Hill, Streatham, Streatham Hill: all will be extremely busy stations
An underground along Streatham High Road, although expensive, would be a sure-fire winner. That high road was once the backbone of the south London tram lines. I am not sure if the route would be better served by the Northern line or the Victoria line. The Victoria line already goes part of the way, but there may be a shortage of capacity just south of Kennington, and if so the Northern line could be the better choice.
The Victoria Line would probably be overloaded by a Streatham Hill extension even if the Chelsea-Hackney Line were built. In the rush hour, Victoria Line trains tend to be quite full even before they get to Victoria, WE Northern Line trains starting at Kennington tend not to be and so there is plenty of capacity.
Brixton is the railhead for Crystal Palace, and so once the Chelsea-Hackney Line is built, I would head the Victoria Line that way: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace, East or West Croydon (can't make my mind up). Another self-contained line up for grabs, and even easier to implement than my other suggestions once past Tulse Hill.
Thanks
what's BCO?
btw I'm not talking about the door keyhole at the bottom
The 7 will get ATO sometime around 2015 or 2020. The cars will be singles (can make 11-car trains), but will able to link up into married pairs if needed. The ATO system will allow the TO to operate the train without his hand on his controller! It will have small cabs (w/railfan window) to allow more rider space. The TO can open and close the doors on both sides from a small cab with this new system! The ATO can be disabled and the train be operated in manual in an emergency. ATO operation will be operated from trackside relays. The cars must operated in manual in non-revenue moves (yards moves, B Division moves, etc.) For example, if the cars are running on the BMT to access to the 7 at QBP, they must be in manual mode. The cars will have aluminum bodies (they are lighter than stainless steel and NEVER rust). Builder should be Kawasaki, CAF or Breda.
What do you think the system will be like in 2500? MagLev?
And what's even worse is that one of the trainsets was involved in a nasty wreck last night at a grade crossing in Moorpark (about 60 miles west of LA). Seems two idiots in cars somehow had a head-on collision right ON the crossing, and the train came around the bend and finished them off. Reportedly there was a fatality....
I photographed 9 trains during the hour that Mike and I were next to the track in Morrisville. I missed an Acela Express while we were talking to a gentleman who had just come out of Morris Tower.
We went to Morrisville to try to catch a cab ride on the Penn Jersey Lines Baldwin DS4-4-1000 (1949). The crew was winterizing it by blocking the cooling air intake louvers. Unfortunately, they had no freight cars to move today, but they took us for a spin anyway. [The engineer and conductor are railfans] With the temperature around freezing, the engine started without a cloud of smoke, after being shut down for 21 hours. The sound of a Baldwin engine is a symphony.
I hadn't seen your trip report yet. I have now responded to it.
response
Does he ever go to work? :)
So you got photos? Let's see. I'd also love to see video. I hope that guy who does the videos was out today. You know who I'm talking about. He posts here once in a while.
I think its pretty obvious that he doesn't
After 30+ years with the same fecal company, I get 6 weeks vacation.
I'll have some pix up eventually; here's the last one of the day: Pavonia Yard in Camden from the 27th Street bridge.
Michael
Washington, DC
:0)
Mark
EASTBOUND
WESTBOUND
If you try to board at one of the stations near the extermities of the oval (e.g. at Paddington), then they say TRAINS VIA EMBANKMENT and TRAINS VIA KINGS CROSS.
AEM7
Do I detect a bit of a condescending posture there? I did think of those, but since a Circle Line train that's now going westbound (or eastbound for that matter) will soon be going in a different direction, those answers did not seem likely.
It's to do with the Circle originally being a joint working between the Metropolitan and District.
The Metropolitan's "East" is New Cross, New Cross Gate, Whitechapel and Tower Hill. Its "West" is Watford, Chesham, Amersham, Verney Junciton, Brill, Uxbridge and Hammersmith.
The District's "East" is Upminster, South Acton and Edgware Rd. Its "West" is Uxbridge, Ealing Bway, Windsor & Eton Central, Hounslow West, Hounslow Town, Richmond and Wimbledon.
Once you see it as a slightly odd joint working between two different railways it makes sense.
Great Portland St.
Baker St.
Edgware Road.
etc.
and on the clockwise side
Kings Cross
Farringdon
Barbican
etc
You'll find these signs at the non-Circle stations too. Basically just a top-down list of the next stations if you board on that platform.
1) Inner Rail (Anti-Clockwise) and Outer Rail (Clockwise).
2) Inner Rail trains are WB from Aldgate to Hi Ken and EB from Glouc Rd to Tower Hill. Outer Rail trains are EB from Hi Ken to Aldgate and WB from Tower Hill to Glouc Rd.
3) The list of stations on the platform signs.
4) The next train indicator reading something like "Circle Line via Victoria".
5) Not bothering - you'll get there eventually.
Not necessarily. If I tried this, my train would go out of service at Edgware Road.
Sod's Law.
In general the performing arts suffer in January and February because holiday travelers return home and local residents avoid scheduling evenings out in anticipation of snowstorms.
The part about travelers makes sense, but what about the local residents? New York's massive transit system is scarcely affected by any but the very worst winter weather. Most local residents probably are aware of that fact - so why avoid scheduling nights out because it might snow? I could see reluctance to make plans during wintertime in areas that get heavy snowfalls AND are auto-dependent. That's not New York, however.
It sounds to me like the Times tossed out this line without much thought. They certainly didn't conduct a statistically accurate survey of local residents.
Have you been in the 66 St station before or after a performance? Plenty.
Ticket prices at the Met for seats in the Family Circle cost between $25 and $35 (except for special premieres, which go for $50). Standing room tickets go for as little as $12.
The New York City Opera has similar pricing for the back of its Fourth Ring.
Most tickets at Yankee Stadium cost more than that. Are baseball fans also too rich to ride the subway?
Wrong word. This is Subtalk. The correct word is "chix."
Back when I was more "cultural" (and a lot better off) my wife and I had season tickets to the Met. It was a real racket--the first year you got lousy seats on your level, but if you kept renewing, you got a little better seats each year.
But the real rip-off is that you pay full price x the number of operas for the season, and you got tickets for every opera.
That's still OK, I guess, but too many of the operas were dreadful, and the productions presented reflected the tastes, whims and egos of those in charge. It was a rare season that they presented a "popular" opera like Butterfly or Carmen--that was left to the City Opera.
And to have the rare chance to see Pavaroti or Domingo in a single production you had to buy the whole season.
My wife used to stop by the Met after work for performances we didn't want to see and give the tickets away to some students, so they'd be able to at least enjoy the pretty building.
This is all IMO, of course, but I'm not alone.
If the restaurant was so shaky that a bad week finished them off, they would've gone udner anyway.
Agreed. Aside from being careless, this practice may allow for manipulation, if persons being interviewed for stories are aware of it.
If the restaurant was so shaky that a bad week finished them off, they would've gone under anyway.
In fact, it said elsewhere in the story that Lespinasse had never operated at a profit in the more than ten years it had been open. I suppose the owners may have the patience of a saint, willing to accept years of losses in the hope of one day making it big, but more likely the adage about a fool and his money was more appropriate.
As for not going out in snow, my wife and kids had to eat tickets to the Museum of Modern Art in Queens as a result of the Presidents Day storm. But if you aren't willing to run a once-in-a-decade risk, you really don't like Opera. The odds of you being sick on that day are much, much higher.
Posted on:11/26/03 10:59:21 AM
Due to a rail condition at the 168th Street Station, brooklyn bound A trains are operating on the local tracks from 168th Street to 125 Street.
{sarcasm} Ithink it goes along the Herald Sq bypass tracks {/sarcasm}
Any information is greatly appreciated.
I don't know about the MARC HHP-8's, but its my understanding they are geared for 110mph +.
Look for trains that originate or terminate in Baltimore. That's MARC equipment.
Michael
Washington, DC
Last year train 3074 with MARC equipment was photographed at Frankford Junction (east of 30th Street Station) on its way to NYP.
Will, you have your job cut out for you. Please bring her back to the winning team. Thanks.
For the 100% paid medical care? No
Work Rules? Not really
So a driver can NEVER be fired, even if (s)he's driving on drugs? Yes
If the guys get's canned, i'd be shocked.
Were there problems with the brakes?
Was visibility a problem?
This is not, by itself, an answer.
Elias
From what I read of the Philly accident, your statement is quite false. Robert Ray was drunk and had fallen asleep a couple of times. Fortunately, no one was killed or injured in Philly.
I mean, they're not even getting their excess living expenses. Having a trolley crash into your residence is usually not considered an ordinary hazard of living.
WTF IS THE DIFFERENCE AND WHY DID THE MTA CHANGE IT?
Today, Continental Avenue is relatively unknown to people who don't live in the Gardens. In line with the MTA's program to name stations after neighborhood (Van Wyck Blvd became Briarwood-Van Wyck and Lefferts Blvd on the A became Lefferts Blvd-Ozone Park).
What do you think of the place names, Kew Gardens, and Richmond Hill (or at least Richmond) being common to London, UK, and to Queens, NYC ?
BTW, Ascan Av was also used to refer to 72 Av south of QB. I don't recall anyone ever using Puritan Av for 75 Av (I lived on 75 Rd & 113 St).
-- Ed Sachs
Click Here
I've also read the AP & Reuters coverage of this story.
I'm wondering why they didn't shut down the subway until the cause of the smell was determined?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/26/nyregion/26TRAN.html
The benefit of extending PATH to the airport: That helps Manhattan, but it mainly helps New Jersey (due to added local service and improved airport access for New Jersey folks). The study ignored that purposefully.
The benefit of the trans-Hudson tunnel is to Amtrak and the NEC as a whole. A part of that benefit is to New York, but the impact is felt everywhere from New Haven allthe way to Washington.
So this study, commissioned to support a specific agenda, isn't worth much regarding those two issues.
She's right. What can I say. Even though those guys (BCG in particular) might have been sucked in by some special interest group, so has the MTA...
AEM7
Indeed, it ranks the Flushing Extension higher because it assumes that the extension will create all the real estate development associated with the upzoning. But you could upzone the area, promise the extension, get the development, but NOT build the extension and get even more bang for your (zero) bucks. And those in "Hudson Yards" would have no longer a walk, and experience no more crowding on the 8th Avenue line, than East Side residents must now face on the Lex. If that is acceptable, why build the extension?
Remember, the "promise but not build" sceario is what actually happened on the East Side. Count all the development, and all of the occupants of that development, on the East Side since th Els were torn down and the subway promised, and the SAS would have many times the benefit of any other improvement.
Fraud.
How they can separate East Side Access from the SAS, when there is already insufficient capacity on the Lex, I cannot fathom. The only mention I can find is this bullet point almost at the end:
Research additional ways to relieve congestion on the Lexington Avenue Subway line. Any review of plans for the 2nd Avenue Subway, or a northern segment of it, should assess the degree to
which light rail, bus rapid transit and ferries could increase the accessibility of Lower Manhattan and reduce congestion on the overcrowded Lexington Avenue Subway lines.
Dont you just want to laugh at the absurdity of the statement? How do they expect trainloads of people dumped into GCT to be supported by light rail or BRT? I suppose, in fairness, that there could be some sort of a study of a ferry from the extreme Upper East Side to Downtown as maybe a way to take some passengers off the Lex, but I dont see that happening.
Perhaps they plan to make it illegal for Bronx residents to ride on the East Side. I wrote to the NYCP voicing my objections. Basically, if the level of crowding on the Lex is acceptable, then NO transportation investment makes sense until the level of crowding exceeds it.
The "free shot" political response to the SAS not beginning construction next year? A development moratorium for the area east of 5th Avenue and north of 14th Street, to continue until crowding on the Lex at rush hour meets NYCT guidelines and average traffic speeds on the East Side reach 20 miles per hour. Nothing would do more to concentrate the minds of the business community.
A new hudson tunnel is needed badly.
Even if I thought that those consultants had run the numbers correctly for NYC per se, I was pointing out that the NEC and the regional benefits were ignored.
At any moment, an undesirable crowding condition can make a neighborhood undesirable -- it happened once in Brooklyn and the Lower East Side. Sure, the SAS won't turn Manhattan into Houston, but it will prevent it from turning into Calcutta. There are no "numbers" for that.
Happy Thanksgiving evryone.
Elias
Chuck Greene
What is the photo's location ?
Chuck Greene
Can we put an Armadillo in that scheme?
article 1
article 2
Regards,
Jimmy
Robert
The map shows a wye connection of the Far Rock line trackage between Gibson and Valley Stream. This suggests that westbound trains reaching that junction can either continue west toward Valley Stream and Jamaica or head east toward Long Beach and other points.
The junction at that location is not a wye. Trains heading westbound toward Jamaica must pass Valley Stream, they cannot head east.
Hagstrom's usually pretty reliable.
Thanks for that info. Now I have another thing to look for!
I can't be sure that this is the case with the instance you have specified, but it's a possibility.
They are extremely slow at incorporating changes. My 1990 vintage map still has the entire Putnam Division on it.
They are also bad at fine detail. My current Hagstrom's has at least 4 mistakes in the immediate vicinity of the westernmost half mile of the LIE, including failing to note the grade crossing that the LIC branch makes with Borden Ave.
Peace,
ANDE
Peace,
ANDE
Peace,
ANDEE
Or perhaps you are contemplating the notion that we are going to look at
the gin joints and nightclubs railroaders may frequent while laying over at
the away from home terminal. Again, this is not the case. Although at some
point I will do a piece on rule G which deals with the use of alcohol and
illegal controlled substances, this lesson will not cover that.
Today, we will focus upon the meeting and passing of trains on single track
railroad.
As long as there has been bidirectional operation of trains on a single
track railroad, there have been meets with trains of the opposing
direction. Over the years there have been various methods employed to
affect such meets. They include timetable and train orders (TT&TO), track
warrant control (TWC), form D control (DCS), direct traffic control (DTC),
and the mother and most efficient of all, centralized traffic control
(CTC). CTC is called by many different names depending upon which carrier
is involved. These names include traffic control system (TCS), Rule 261,
and traffic control (TC). We will examine and attempt to explain many of
the different systems in this lesson.
In the years before automatic block signal systems were developed and then
improved, a method of operation was needed to govern the movements of
trains operating in the same and opposite directions on any given portion
of railroad. Without some method of order, there would be and often was
chaos. There had to be some sort of guidance or code to allow for the
meeting and passing of trains. Usher in the train order and the timetable
schedule.
Train orders were the mainstay for train operations for years. While
appearing somewhat complicated and overwhelming to the new shooter
railroader, it was a very good system. Being this method lasted across two
centuries it was, without a doubt, very thoughtfully and skillfully
designed. While I wont get into all the nuts and bolts of train orders, I
will touch upon some of the important aspects of train orders as we
progress. A piece about train orders lies in the future.
The timetable schedule was used hand in hand with train orders. And like
train orders, these schedules worked very well also lasting across two
centuries. They served a vital purpose to create an order to train
movements on main tracks. With timetable schedules another portion of the
needed order was set into place.
Trains were conveyed authority by right, class and direction, in that exact
order. Right was conveyed by train order. The train order reigned supreme
and superceded class and direction. Class was conveyed by timetable.
Regular scheduled trains were designated by class, first, second and third.
First class trains were generally passenger and mail trains, the hottest
movements out on the high iron. On rare occasion a high priority manifest
freight might be given a first class designation. Second class trains were
generally higher priority manifest trains often referred to as red ball or
time freights. Some local passenger trains (the ones that made each every
local stop along the way) might be designated second class as well. Third
class trains were normally the lowest of the low, freight locals and low
priority manifest freights.
I have all kinds of class, its just all low.
The timetable authorized the superior direction. Depending upon the
particular nature of the operation, one direction was always made superior
to the other, e.g. eastward or northward trains would have superiority over
westward or southward trains. Taking this further, such authority conveyed
eastward or northward trains having superiority over opposing trains of the
same class. Well take two second class trains making a scheduled (not
train order) meet. The inferior train by direction would have to clear the
main track for the superior train. If an eastward train was superior by
direction, the opposing westward train of the same class, inferior by
direction, was required to clear up for it.
If the inferior train by direction was a first class train and the superior
train was a second class train, the second class train would have to clear
as it was inferior by class to the first class train as class comes before
direction on the superiority totem pole. Meets between regular trains were
frequently and commonly designated by timetable schedules. If for some
reason one of the involved trains was operating behind schedule, instead of
having the inferior train wait at the scheduled meeting point for an
extended period of time, a train order would be issued to change the
scheduled meet. It might state No 21 has right over No 4 between Knuckle
and Bone. This gives No 21 right to the railroad up to and including the
switch where 21 will enter the siding and clear the main track.
Each timetable station page had the schedules for all regular trains
operating over that portion of the railroad. In the case of scheduled
meets, the number or symbol of the train that one train was scheduled to
meet was included on the schedule, indicated in smaller, bolder print. You
could look at your schedule on the schedule portion of the station page and
easily see the intended meet.
Extra trains were non-scheduled movements. Extra trains had no class.
Man, you got no class!
Extra trains were conveyed authority to operate by train order. In yard
limit territory unless otherwise provided by special instructions in the
timetable, extra trains could usually occupy the main track without a train
order. In these limits you could go back and forth as you pleased, but you
had to clear all scheduled train movements. If for any reason you could not
clear in time, you were required to provide flag protection against the
superior trains. Actually whether within or outside of yard limits, if you
failed to clear for a superior train you had to afford flag protection.
Meets had to be scheduled between extra trains operating against each
other. I in most circumstances these meets had to be set up by train order.
The order would say Extra 3277 south meet extra 3156 north at Bean. Using
the old Uniform Code of Operating Rules (the rulebook I was introduced into
railroading with), it was directed that the first named train would take
the siding and clear for the second named train in a train order meet. So
while the order did not specify which train cleared the main track for the
other, knowing your rules told you that if you were the first named train
on the order, you were inferior to the second named train.
So this order is issued to both of the extra trains and one of them falls
down en route. To avoid delay to both of the trains the Dispatcher opts to
change the meet. He issues an order to supercede the original meet. This
order reads Extra 3277 south meet extra 3156 north at Onion instead of
Bean. An order could only be superceded one time. If the meet needed to be
changed again, the second order would have to be annulled and an all new
order creating a meet would have to be issued.
At least one railroad, the Illinois Central Gulf, used to designate which
train was to take the siding at a meeting point. It would read Extra 6001
north take siding and meet extra 9627 south at Chowder.
Train orders involved the use of Operators at various locations to copy and
transmit the orders to the affected trains. The orders were transmitted
through the use of train order hoops. There were several different types of
train order hoops; those that were permanently mounted to the ground on a
mast or those held in the Operators hand. The latter required the Operator
to have to stand near the passing train to hoop up the orders to the
crews on both the head end and tail end of the train. Not exactly the
safest method. I have heard plenty of horror stories from Operators that
had to transmit orders in this method.
Train orders were in effect until fulfilled, superceded or annulled.
Fulfilled meant you lived up to the instructions in that order. You
affected your meet with that opposing train thus, the order is fulfilled.
Superceded meant another order changed this one. That would be the order
that used the words instead of when changing the meet. Annulled meant
this order was annulled by another train order. Order number one reads
Extra 6027 north meet Extra 3197 south at Mutton. For whatever reason
extra 3197 south had problems of some sort and is not going to be in the
picture for quite awhile. So now another order is issued annulling order
number one. This new order reads Order number one is annulled. Order
number one is now dead and gone. It cannot be resurrected. Extra 6027 now
has the railroad beyond Mutton until another order is issued to them to
create a meet with the Extra 3197 north at another location. And in order
to allow the Extra 6027 to proceed, an order was issued to the Extra 3197
south to either hold them somewhere or even to rescind or perhaps shorten
their initial running rights.
Some Dispatchers preferred the timetable and train order system of
dispatching. They feel the use of Operators to copy and transmit the orders
to the trains involved was safer as it offered a back up system of checks
and balances to the system. Perhaps they are correct. I know several
Operators who have told me stories of catching a mistake in an order issued
by the Dispatcher. On the other hand, it was also possible to have that
extra set of hands possibly make a mistake. In more than one situation an
Operator screwed up and wrote the wrong station, repeated it back wrong
only to have the Dispatcher give the time complete and let it go. What they
were thinking and what they were hearing were two different creatures. This
however, was not very likely though as the station name or names involved
in the body of the order had to be spelled out in addition to being stated.
For example, if the station name involved was Pin, both the Dispatcher when
issuing and the Operator when repeating, would have to say Pin, P-I-N.
I do know many Dispatchers who tell me they do not miss issuing train
orders. As we cover the other methods of dispatching and arranging meets,
you'll understand why they take this attitude.
Track warrant control is the baby in methods of train dispatching. My first
exposure to it was in 1985 with the issuance of the General Code of
Operating Rules (GCOR). Track warrants are pre-printed forms in which both
the employees issuing and copying the form simply filled in the blanks. The
blank form would look like this,
No._______ _______________20_______
To:_____________At:____ _______________
There are various lines with boxes at the beginning of each line like this,
1. [ ] Track warrant number______________________is void.
2. [ ] Proceed from _______________To_______________On________track
In addition, there are other lines on the form as well for other items
including arranging meets. The number of lines and the line number next to
each line can and does vary a bit. The track warrant forms CN uses are
slightly different than those in service on Norfolk Southern. The General
Code railroads like UP, BNSF, Soo Line and Rail America have forms that
differ from both CN and NS. While they use much of the same vernacular, the
line numbers conveying the information is somewhat different. Also, CN has
no rules in regards to flagging, so there is no line dealing with relief
from providing flag protection. To make life simple (for me) I'll use the
CN version.
The following lines are used to arrange meets and allow trains to pass.
7. [ ] Not in effect until after the arrival of____________at
_______________
8. [ ] Hold main track at last named point.
10. [ ] Clear main track at last named point.
At the bottom of the track warrant form are the following lines.
OK___________________ Dispatcher______________
Relayed to_____________ Copied by______________
Limits reported clear at__________ By______________
When the Dispatcher calls a train and notifies them they will copy a track
warrant, a member of the crew not operating the controls of a moving
locomotive must prepare themselves and then notify the Dispatcher they are
ready to copy.
The Dispatcher will then issue the warrant something like this.
Track Warrant number 6296 dated February 5, 2003 to the CN 5664 South at
Ashkum. Check (or X) line two; proceed from Gilman to Thawville on main
track. Check (or X) box 8; hold main track at last named point. This
warrant has two boxes checked, 2 and 8. You may repeat when ready, over.
The employee copying the warrant will fill in all the blank lines and then
repeat All of this back to the Dispatcher, not just the lines they filled
in. When completed with this portion of the repeat we are the required to
say Track warrant number 6296 with two boxes checked 2 and 8, over.
The Dispatcher will then give us the OK time and his (or her) initials like
this,
Track warrant 6296 with two boxes checked 2 and 8, okayed at 2215 hours,
Dispatcher MHC, over The employee copying the warrant will repeat these
instructions usually also giving their name or initials as the employee
copying the warrant. Being that most of our Dispatchers know many of us
quite well, some employees don't always state their name or initials as the
Dispatcher knows their voice and knows who they are.
So now the completed track warrant looks like this,
No __6296________ February 5, 2003
To: CN5664 South At: Ashkum___
2 [X] Proceed from Gilman To Thawville on Main track.
8 [X} Hold main track at last named point.
OK 2215 Dispatcher MHC___
Relayed to________ Copied by Santucci__
When the Dispatcher acknowledges the repeated correctly time, the warrant
is now in effect. In some cases, the Dispatcher initials made a word. In my
Wisconsin Central days, we had Dispatcher John A. Busa. His initials were
J-A-B and oftentimes he and the crews copying that knew him well would say
Dispatcher Jab instead of spelling out his initials.
This authority allows my train to proceed to Thawville and remain on the
main track when I reach there. I cannot go any further than the clearance
point of the switch at the south end of Thawville Siding. My authority ends
at that limit.
The Dispatcher has decided to hold us at Thawville in order to meet an
opposing train, a train coming against us. He has issued the opposing
train, in this case Norfolk Southern train 68V a track warrant to proceed
from milepost (MP) 110.1 (which is the interlocking at Gibson City) to
Thawville and a line 10 to clear main track at last named point. In setting
up meets in TWC territory, the Dispatcher will often take into account
which train is likely to arrive there first to determine who will hold the
main track and who will clear the main track.
In the case of the Gilman Sub, the siding at Thawville has spring switches
at either end. A train pulling out of the siding does not have to operate
the hand throw switches there when leaving; they can just proceed on
through. The switch points automatically line for your movement being
pushed over by the wheels of your locomotives and cars. The switch points
are connected to a cylinder which forces them back to their normal route of
lined for the main track when the wheels clear the switch. To enter the
siding from either end, you still need to operate the switch by hand and
line it for your route.
In having the first train hold the main track, a member of the crew of this
train can communicate with the opposing train and notify them the switch
will be lined for their movement into the siding. This means the opposing
train will not have to stop and line the switch themselves. It is also
required by the rules to perform this step whenever practicable. However,
the train entering the siding must have their speed reduced to the maximum
allowable speed of that turnout and of the siding itself. And we do not
operate the switch until he is past the past signal before the siding so as
not to drop a signal on him. Once the train entering the siding clears the
main track, a member of the crew of the train on the main track can then
reline the switch behind the opposing train. In this method, the Conductor
of the train taking the siding does not have drop off, line the switch back
and then walk all the way up to the head end. In situations where there are
no spring switches and just hand operated switches, both trains will have
to stop to line at least one switch.
Now to get both trains moving quickly, the Dispatcher can immediately issue
another warrant to each train involved in the meet at Thawville right after
issuing the first warrant, in our case, track warrant 6296. Our next
warrant would read something like this,
No: 6300 February 5, 2003
To: CN 5664 South At: Thawville
2 [X] Proceed from Thawville To MP 110.1 On Main track.
7 [X] Not in effect until after the arrival of NS 9350 North at Thawville
After giving these instructions, the Dispatcher will say Track warrant
6300 with two boxes checked, 2 and 7 including a meet with the NS 9350
North at Thawville. Repeat when ready, over. The employee copying this
warrant has to fill in the blanks and repeat all these instructions
including the information acknowledging the meet between us and the NS 9350
North at Thawville. Only then will the Dispatcher give the okay time and
initials. This is a check and balance added to the system several years
ago. The meet acknowledgement was instituted after a couple of big wrecks
occurred when either information about the station name and/or meets
involved was mishandled.
When repeating a track warrant back to the Dispatcher, any numbers must be
stated as a word and digits. So when the track warrant number is repeated
back, it should be stated as sixty-three hundred and then read
six-three-zero-zero. Being an old school railroader, I tend to use the word
naught instead of zero. Once upon a time we were not allowed to use the
words zero or oh for that digit, we had to use naught. Some railroads
require all station names to be stated and spelled as well. So Thawville
would have to be spoken and then spelled T-H-A-W-V-I-L-L (or double L)
-E. This is also a carryover from train order days. Personally, I feel the
say and spell method is much safer, but our Rules and Operating practices
guy doesn't subscribe to this theory.
With track warrant 6300 in hand, once the NS 9350 North was in the clear at
Thawville and the switch restored to normal, I could immediately proceed.
When the time comes to report clear of a track warrant after our entire
train is out of those limits, we use a specific procedure. We will inform
the Dispatcher they can have back the limits of track warrant 6296 (or
whatever one we are clearing). The Dispatcher will say, Track warrant
number 6296 of February 5, 2003 limits reported clear at 0005 hours by
Santucci (or whomever the employee is handling the reporting). We repeat
these instructions back and get the Dispatchers acknowledgement. This
warrant is now dead. The time reported clear and the employee performing
this exercise must write this all in the required spaces at the bottom of
the warrant. You must then write the word VOID upon the face of this
track warrant as well.
OK_____2215___________ Dispatcher_MHC________
Relayed to_____________ Copied by_Santucci______
Limits reported clear at_0005_____ By_Santucci _____
Under the old rules I could crunch this warrant up and toss it into the
garbage. Under the current CN US Operating Rules, we must keep this and all
mandatory directives issued for the duration of our trip. Once we tie up,
we can toss them. Should there be some sort of mishap or episode, the
officer or officers investigating such a situation will request to see all
of your mandatory directives issued prior to and while en route on your
trip. This information can and will be used either for or against you in a
court of law.
We do have one Dispatcher who will specifically say X box such and such
not check. If you say Check box such and such he will tell to take
that check off and send it to me in the mail. Then put an X in that box.
If you noticed, there was a line at the bottom of the track warrant that
said Relayed to. This was used in the event somebody other than a member
of your crew, such as a Yardmaster or Operator had copied the warrant for
you before you went on duty and then handed it to you. The employee copying
it would place their name in the copied by box and then the Dispatcher
would have them relay it to you. Thus, your name would go into the box as
having had it relayed to you.
Another method of setting up meets uses direct traffic control, DTC. In
this method, the main track is broken down into a series of blocks. Each
block has specified limits with a sign at each end designating the
beginning and end of each block. One or more of these blocks will be issued
to a train for movement.
There are two slightly different methods of issuing DTC blocks depending
upon whether the route has automatic block signals (ABS) and block signal
rules in effect or not. With ABS in effect you are issued proceed blocks
which convey your authority to occupy the main track in the specified block
or blocks. In non-signaled territory you would be issued absolute, clear or
occupied blocks. An absolute block allows for only train to occupy the
block. Clear is a block clear of opposing and following trains and occupied
is a block clear of opposing, but not necessarily preceding trains. What
this means is that it is likely that you are following another train.
For this segment of todays lesson we will use CSXs Monon Sub, which
happens to be near my house and a line I frequently hear trains being
issued DTC blocks. This line is protected by automatic block signals and
governed by block signal rules.
A northbound train wanting to operate on the Monon Sub will contact the RA
Dispatcher in Calumet City, IL to get their block authority. CSX uses two
letter codes for each Dispatcher console. In this case, the RA console.
We'll use local train J769 for this purpose. J769 works industries between
Lafayette and Munster, IN and generally has a rather short train. They will
have to meet a southbound train in their travels and the instructions and
authority issued would be as follows, Engine 6027 has a proceed north in
the Monon, Surrey and Lowell blocks, take siding at Dyer. This authority
has three blocks and one take siding, Dispatcher TMM, over. The employee
copying this repeats it all back including the part that states This
authority has three blocks and one take siding getting the OK time and the
Dispatchers initials.
J769 will take the siding upon arrival at Dyer and then report clear of all
the blocks. A southbound train can then get blocks to proceed south. Now
the way blocks are usually set up, the new block begins beyond the switch
the opposing train will use to clear the main track. The Dyer block begins
and the Lowell block ends just north of the switch the northbound, in this
case J769, will use to clear up. This method allows a train of the opposite
direction to come south into the Dyer block and wait on the main track. If
the southbound was already en route towards Dyer after J769 was issued his
blocks, this train would be issued one block, the Dyer block. Being they
own this block in its entirety, they are not required to clear the main
track. They can pull up to, but in no case beyond the sign that says End
Dyer Block, Begin Lowell Block.
The Monon Sub uses seven individual blocks in addition to the automatic
block signal system. They are the Dyer (between MP 25.4 and 30.4), Lowell
(between MP 30.4 and 45.5), Surrey (between MP 45.5 and 68.2), Monon
(between MP 68.2 and 86.1), Junction (between MP 86.1 and 90.3), Chalmers
(between MP 90.3 and 102.2) and Brookston (between MP 102.2 and 113.3).
Block names are sometimes derived from station names on the route or even
physical characteristics. Within the Junction block is the location where
Monon Sub junctions with the Medaryville Spur and the Indianapolis Branch
at MP 88.4.
The signs which mark the end point of each block acknowledge the beginning
of one and end of another, Begin Dyer Block and beneath it End Lowell
Block. The opposite side of that sign reads, Begin Lowell Block and
beneath it End Dyer Block.
CSX issues blank DTC forms generated on a printer with the train release
and train message for that particular train. They do not have the forms in
a book or pad like a track warrant or form D. On the other hand, Kansas
City Southern uses a pad of preprinted forms that make carbon copies. There
is another difference between the way CSX and KCS issues DTC permits and we
will look at that as well.
When a DTC permit is issued, the engine number, date, location of the train
or engine at the time the permit is copied, and the subdivision the train
is operating over is used as the address to the train or engine that will
use the DTC permit. The KCS preprinted form has seven lines with various
instructions relating to the permit.
1 [ ] Engine _____ is granted DIRECTIONAL AUTHORITY from _________
to_________.
This grants a train or engine permission to proceed in one direction from
the first named point to the second named point only.
2 [ ] Use SIDING at ______________________________________________.
This instruction is used to designate a meeting point between two trains.
3 [ ] After DEPARTURE of Engine(s)____, ____, ____ and ____ Engine ______
is granted DIRECTIONAL AUTHORITY from___________ to____________.
This instruction is what affects a meet between two (or more) trains at a
specific location. It allows for a train or engine to proceed after all
engines numbers listed in the spaces have arrived and passed the first
named point of this line.
4 [ ] Use Siding at _________________________________________________.
5 [ ] ________ is granted Work And Time Authority between __________ and
________ until ______hrs. with _____, _____, _____, _____and ______.
______, ______, ______, _____, and _____.
This allows a train or engine to work back and forth between the two named
locations. It may also allow for two or more engines to work in these
limits, or Maintenance of Way to also work within these limits in either
direction. When more than one train, one train with MofW or two or more
MofW gangs are working within these limits, all of them would be required
to have a copy of this authority that shows all trains, engines or MofW
crews that were issued this same authority.
Also with the scope of line 5 is the following:
DO NOT SET ON AHEAD OF OR PASS PRECEDING TRAIN _____ _____
and ________ ______.
This means that you must not set your equipment on the main track or pass
the stated train on this authority, You must let the stated train pass and
you must remain behind them, even if they stop to do work at a station.
That portion of WORK AND TIME AUTHORITY number _____ is released
between ______ and _______.
between ______ and _______.
between ______ and _______.
RELEASE TIME ______ DATE ______ TRAIN DISPATCHERS INITIALS _____
This allows for a train, engine or MofW gang to shorten up the limits
behind them if they will not require movement beyond the point they wish to
clear their limits up to. For example, if their original authority was
between A and D but they had now finished their work at A and B and no
longer needed the authority between these points, they could clear that
portion of their limits while still retaining authority between B and D.
This allows for the Dispatcher to operate other trains of engines between A
and B and up to, but not beyond B.
6 [ ] Current AUTHORITY NUMBER ______ is VOID.
This cancels out the entire authority, not just a portion of it.
7 [ ] Additional Instructions:
A.___________
B.___________
C.___________
D.___________
These spaces are used as required with other specific instructions as
required.
THERE ARE ______ LINES ISSUED, THEY ARE LINES NUMBER(S)
1,2,3,4,5,6,7.
The correct number of lines issued would be circled.
[ ] THIS INCLUDES A REQUIREMENT TO MEET ANOTHER TRAIN.
Only checked when a meet with another train is required as part of this
authority.
EMPLOYEE RECEIVING INSTRUCTIONS: _________________
RELAYED TO ___________
OK TIME ______ DATE _______ TRAIN DISPATCHERS INITIALS ______
So a properly issued authority would look something like this:
AUTHORITY NUMBER 2055
At Dallas Dallas Subdivision
1 [X] Engine KCS 6634 is granted DIRECTIONAL AUTHORITY from Garland to
Alliance Jct.
THERE ARE 1 LINES ISSUED, THEY ARE NUMBERS (1),2,3,4,5,6,7.
EMPLOYEE RECEIVING INSTRUCTIONS: GRAY
OKTIME 0710 DATE 11/8/00 TRAIN DISPATCHERS INITIALS BEG
And there you have it, DTC issued in just a slightly different format.
Finally we look at the Cadillac of authorizing meets; Centralized Traffic
Control (CTC). The definition of CTC from the old Uniform Code which
actually says it all pretty concisely;
A block signal system whose indications supercede the superiority of
trains in both following and opposing movements on the main track.
The Train Dispatcher or Control Operator acting under the authority of the
Dispatcher controls the signals, signal appliances and switches within CTC
territory. The signal indications received are the authority to proceed.
These signal indications convey any and all superiority between trains.
While in the days of schedules you were aware of the schedules of trains,
whatever the signals received conveyed to your train, you acted upon those
and not the schedule. Today with no trains actually operating on timetable
schedules on most railroads, you simply follow the signals. The only time a
passenger train schedule now matters in CTC territory is when you might
have the instance to pass such a train at a station they are working.
In CTC territory, all the switches at meeting points are operated remotely
by the Dispatcher or Control Operator. The switches and any associated
appliances are motorized or air powered to move the switch points or
derails within interlockings known as control points. In the Uniform Code
an interlocking was defined in part as An arrangement of signals and
signal appliances so interconnected that their movements must succeed
themselves in proper sequence. This system is so connected and arranged
that conflicting routes are not able to be lined at the same time.
For an example lets use Kankakee (KX) on the CN Chicago Sub as an example.
At KX we cross the NS Kankakee Branch. Also at KX is the connection from
the siding to the Kankakee, Beaverville & Southern (KBSR) Railroad and the
south end of the Kankakee Siding. The Desk Two Dispatcher in Homewood
controls this plant. Now if the Dispatcher lines the plant to allow an
eastbound NS across, the system will not allow them to simultaneously line
a CN move in either direction across the plant. They can code in a request
for a line up for a CN train into the computer, but nothing will happen
until the NS train is clear of the limits of the KX control point. And at
no time will a signal to proceed appear for a CN train while an NS train is
occupying the plant.
The signals protecting such control points are directly wired into the same
system that controls the switches and other appliances. If the switch fails
to properly line or lines but fails to lock into place, or perhaps a derail
fails to move into the proper position, the signal will not clear. There
are also other conditions that may cause a signal to fail to clear for a
train as well, but we wont delve into them at this time. When a signal
fails to clear as the result of some sort of problem, it is then that we
are notified of a problem. When the signal fails to clear, this means it
remains at its most restrictive condition, a stop signal. And yes, we must
stop without fail. However, we will normally have an approach (yellow)
signal in advance of the stop signal, so it is not like it just pops out at
us. An approach indication on a signal tells us that we must proceed
prepared to stop before passing the next signal.
The Dispatcher or Control Operator will give us very specific instructions
on what to do upon our arrival at the control point. It may be that a
member of the crew will have to operate one or more switches by hand in
order to get it properly lined for our route. On occasion, debris may fall
in between the switch points preventing them from properly lining. Or there
may be another problem within the system that needs to be repaired. Should
that be the case, people like my good friend and Signal Maintainer
extraordinaire, Jim Sinclair will get the call. Now while Jim works for NS
and not CN, he and the folks of his craft are very worthy of the
recognition for the work they do and the vital services they perform.
Now within CTC, the Dispatcher or Operator do not control the aspects
(colors) of the signals. They cannot give me a clear or approach signal.
They can only clear a signal to display a PROCEED indication of some sort.
Conditions in the block ahead and the route we are lined for will dictate
what sort of actual signal we will get in the field on the trackside
signals or on a cab signal in the locomotive. In CTC just like in DTC,
there are blocks. Only these blocks are controlled electronically based
upon what is happening within that block or the blocks ahead of it.
Under normal conditions, we do not proceed right from a clear (green)
signal right to a stop, stop and proceed or restricted proceed (red)
signal. Thats not to say that it doesnt, wont or cant happen, but this
is not the normal situation. Should such a situation occur, it may be a
man-made condition or a failure. Somebody may have opened an electric lock
box for a hand operated switch after we passed the last clear signal, a
hand operated switch may have been operated, a car might have rolled out or
perhaps another train may have failed to stop at a stop signal causing my
block to drop to restricting or stop signal. There could also be an
electronic failure or perhaps even some sort of track problem developed as
well.
The Dispatcher or Operator can take control point signals away from us
after they have cleared them, but they must first positively ascertain from
the train involved that it is indeed okay for them to take such action. If
you are listening in on the action you may, from time to time hear them
call us and ask if it is okay form them to drop the signal at a certain
location. Only when we inform them that they may take the signal away from
us are they allowed to do so. The rulebook has very clear and concise
wording for such situations. If for any reason we as the Engineers feel
that it is unsafe or that we cannot stop in time, we will inform them of
such and they are not to drop the signal for any reason, except for an
emergency. Now if it was an emergency, they would tell us as much and
instruct us to bring our train to an immediate stop. Deciding the meet they
had or failed to set up is not considered an emergency.
Within CTC limits, two opposing trains cannot be lined against each other.
Again, the entire system is interlocked, just like within the control
points themselves. Blocks in CTC limits are directional just like in DTC;
only the direction is controlled electronically. In CTC you cannot clear a
signal or change the direction of the block once a train has entered those
limits. If for any reason it is deemed necessary to bring two opposing
trains into the same limits, one train will have to stop at a control point
first, and then be talked by the signal. They will have to proceed at
restricted speed. Once they pass that stop signal, all of the signals for
movement in the opposite direction will drop red immediately. Normally
under such circumstances, the other train involved will already be stopped
or is in the process of stopping. And the crew of this train must be
notified of such an event before it is allowed to occur. Oftentimes when it
does occur, it is because the train that already owns the block may have
stopped or stalled owing to engine or train trouble.
The Dispatcher has complete control of the direction of the blocks within
CTC. That control takes place at the control points. As an example, we'll
use the portion of the railroad between South Paxton and North Rantoul on
the CN Chicago Sub. Both locations are control points. The south end of the
Paxton Siding is located at South Paxton. The north end of the Rantoul
Siding is located at North Rantoul. In between the two points it is single
track railroad. There are two intermediate or block signals between the two
control points as well as the signals at the control points themselves.
What we have are four separate small blocks within the block between the
two control points. The Dispatcher does not control the intermediate
signals, only the control points. The intermediate signals convey
information based upon what is happening between that signal and the next
signal, and what is happening immediately beyond that next signal. That
occurs automatically.
If we are lined up to proceed south at South Paxton and there are no trains
ahead of us at all, we should get a clear (green) signal at South Paxton.
Now once lined up to go south, there is no way the Dispatcher can line up a
northward move at North Rantoul. The two northward intermediate signals
between North Rantoul and South Paxton will both drop and display
restricted proceed (red with a number plate on the signal mast). This is
because the block is lined to proceed south from South Paxton to North
Rantoul. If there are no trains at all between the two points and we are
also lined up to proceed south at North Rantoul, the first three signals,
South Paxton and block signals 106.3 and 110.5 between the two points
should display clear signals. Depending upon whether or not we are lined up
at South Rantoul will determine the signal at North Rantoul. If we are
going to get held at South Rantoul, there will be a stop signal displayed
there. This means the signal at North Rantoul will display an approach
(yellow) signal telling me that I will have to approach South Rantoul ready
to stop before passing that signal.
To sum it all up for CTC, you are operating on signal indication. If for
some reason you cannot get favorable signals, you operate at restricted
speed. CTC allows a tremendous amount of flexibility for Dispatchers. You
can operate a greater volume of trains more timely. However, contrary to
what some railroad officials I have known over the years claim, you cannot
run more trains faster on single track than on two main tracks. The only
way possible to operate more trains faster on single track is to take
non-signaled (using TWC, DTC or Form D control) or DTC and ABS territory
and upgrading that to CTC.
This Thursday here in the US we will celebrate Thanksgiving. Those of you
in Canada have already celebrated yours and I was remiss in failing to
mention this. To my US readers I wish to extend to you all a safe and happy
Thanksgiving. Even during these bad economic times and with our men and
women of the military abroad right now that are caught up in some serious
hotspots, we still have a great deal to be thankful for. One of the biggest
is the freedom those men and women serving in our military are presently
defending worldwide. We should give thanks for their willingness to serve
and for all veterans who served before them whether by choice or from the
era of the draft. Take a moment on Thursday to really give thanks, be it a
silent prayer or perhaps attending a Thanksgiving service at your place of
worship.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, 2003 by JD Santucci
Sounds like the site is dead, but the IP address is still valid, but not used.
Maybe Kevin Walsh knows something.
It gets expensive maintaining a large site full of photos. What s--s is that if you're not with the right ISP, the more bandwidth you have (ie. the more people look at your site) the more expensive it is for YOU.
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.railfanwindow.com
Is it really that hard to find a picture of a US train?
Those 323s really have an unique sound as they accelerate away...
I picked up a copy today and am already deep into chapter one, "August Belmont and His Subway" Chapter two deals with the Boston Subway, Chapter three with London's Underground, Chapter 4 with New York's Electrified Railroads; (i.e. NYCRR,PRR,LIRR,NHRR)and promises to be very interesting. Chapter 5 is titled "The Legacy of the IRT" and deals with rapid transit nationwide.
The book retails for $30.00. I picked up a copy today because I didn't want to take the chance of having it sell out. Neither Waldenbooks or the Strand has it yet.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I thought Coliseum Books went out of business a couple of years ago. Even made the news too. They were at West 57th and Bway.
Bill "Newkirk"
They did close the store up near Columbus Circle but they opened the present one a few months ago. Its nice to have a change from Barnes & Noble.
Larry, RedbirdR33
It is British Airline registry G-BOAD .
I know that this isn't a rail topic but it is a transit topic and our members on the other side of the pond might find it of interest.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Did you see Newsday's slide show?
Regards,
Jimmy
Anyone with a camera on the A train riding through the Raunt would've gotten some great shots of it on Tuesday morning (around Dawn).
Regards,
Jimmy :)
Hope all the disc problems are gone, or to the point that you can ignore the pain. (It does serve to remind you that you're alive).
Maybe you could journey below the Mason-Dixon line and visit "America's First ?Downtown Streetcar Museum" - The Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
Does this mean that is no more second avenue subway or the MTA is doing it regardless?
____________________________________________________________
A new study says the planned Second Avenue subway is not worth the money.
According to an analysis by the Partnership of New York City, the cost of the new line would outweigh the benefits by almost $3 billion.
Supporters say the line is needed to ease overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue subways.
Construction on the Second Avenue subway, which is scheduled to begin next year, is expected to take as long as 17 years and as much as $15 billion.
When finished, it will stretch from 125th Street all the way down to Hanover Square in Lower Manhattan
In other words, politics dictated the results.
If the Westchester & Boston had survived, the 2 Av subway could be used today as a downtown line for Metro-North . And the LIRR could still use the 2 Av subway as a downtown line instead of ending at Grand Central.
" Car 491 (ex-401) will be rejoining the train, freshly painted to a 1950s to early 1970s appearance, complete with red vinyl leather seats and a gray and blue interior."
Chris C. Shaffer
Filthy black, covered with steel dust.
Will 491 get its original number back? Why was it renumbered in the first place?
One can only hope that #491 is renumbered back to original. As for why she was renumbered, not to conflict with new R-44's (SIRT) that were new back in 1971.
Bill "Newkirk"
" Car 491 (ex-401) will be rejoining the train, freshly painted to a 1950s to early 1970s appearance, complete with red vinyl leather seats and a gray and blue interior."
Chris C. Shaffer
NYSubway18
wayne
wayne
I guess the gray/blue arnines were painted around the late 50's early 60's to probably match the interior colors of new R-27/30's. And their exterior color was olive drab when new.
Bill "Newkirk"
I spoke to my friend about a couple of hours ago. He tells me the arnines were painted gray/blue twice. First in 1953 with rattan seating with green striping and second in 1963 when they received red vinyl seat covering to replace the rattan.
Bill "Newkirk"
Exterior color as it was at the end of its service life? Dark brown, covered with tunnel grime.
wayne
The two-tone blue scheme must have only been applied to R-7s and R-9s. That's how I remember them on the Canarsie line. 1689 still has that interior paint scheme.
wayne
wayne
Given a choice, would you rather have 100's interior painted pistachio green? Eeewwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!
The Penn Jersey Lines switch the Penn Warner industrial park with #302, a Baldwin DS4-4-1000 built in 1949. It has 1000hp from a large 8 8"x12" cyl turbocharged diesel with a max rev of 600rpm and an idle speed of 345rpm. Moreover this unit is equipped with friction bearings and is not allowed off of its little 4.5 mile maze of trackage by NS. We caught the crew installing foam baffles in the air louvres to restrict air flow the keep the engine warm in the comming cold months. Oddly enough this was the first day in three weeks they didn't have any traffic to move, but they were cool and decided to give us a ride just for the hell of it.
When they started #302 up we were ready with our cameras to catch the big puff of smoke, but much to our surprice the 54 year-old girl made a totally clean start without so much as a whist of smoke. We boarded #302 for a cab ride out along the industrial trackage the PJL switch. They took us all the way to the NS interchange at the morrisville yard where we saw the new NJT work going on for their new 12 track electrified layover yard for NEC trains, some high/wide transformer loads and 3 big NS road units were flat switching the yard (the hump was taken out of service years ago). Next they took us down a spur where the condustor canabalized a switch stand and pounded some spikes into a segment of really lousey rail. Finally they took us back to the terminal, which was just a stub track past the last two industrial customers. the PJL office is an old PRR N5 caboose with a salavged mobile home heater, a desk and some sleeping bags.
After that we treated the crew to breakfast for the ride before continuing on to Amtrak's MORRIS tower and MORRIS interlocking which is just this side of the Delaware River bridge in PA. While the MORRIS tower is closed it is still used as an MoW hangout. A swarm of workers were on the old Morrisville yard flyovr ramp, but that was a aways away so we went up next to the tower to watch the pre-Thanksgiving parade of trains. We stood up on this landing next to the tower door shown in this picture.
We took pictures of a number of trains, despite the crappy angles for northbounds, until a C&S crew emerged from the tower. We got to gabbing with the first guy and totally missed a Southbound ACELA express, but as more C&S folk emerged the last guy out tossed us off the landing. Not to be denied we walked up 2 lbocks to the location of the old Morrisville Station where we took pics of about 10 more trains within the space of an hour or so. Today was especially cool because three of the normal trains had extra 1000 series extras scheduled after them. There is some good news at MORRIS in that a number of the switches are still pneumatic.
At about 12:20 we were facing about an hour gap without trains so we headed back to the car. Unfortunately I thought I managed to loose my lense cap, but later I found it when I remembered to check my pocket. From MORRIS we headed back to NJ to scope out the Doggle on our way back home. We just missed a test train at a crossing north of Burlington City, but managed to catch a train sitting on the track just south of Riverside where the track paralells the River road. We stopped and got out and a few minutes later the train started moving southboutd. Well, I don't know what the heck happened, but as it went over the crossing both chuchubob's and my ditigal cameras failed and would not take the picture. We don't know if it was a solar flare or some freaky EM thing put out by the train, but we were both robbed of a super shot. We followed the tracks south into Penshawken where we stopped again at the famous Cove Road crossing just in time for the gates to lower. I was quick on my feat getting out of the car with the camera and nabbed some great shots of the SJLR vehicle and it taking a Medium Approach Medium signal, but chuchubob had left his camera in his pocket and could not produce it intime.
Over the last year or so NS has modified the signals at CP-HATCH to interact with the new light rail line and entrance interlocking. The dwarf on track 1 has had 2 new Safetran modules added to it (two green I think( and the one on track 2 has had a sinngle green added to it. This is because the former bordentown sec is now signaled and when freight trains can run on it they can get clear signals into the new line instead of a restricting signal (which is the case entering an unsignaled line).
From here we left to go to the 27th St bridge over Pavonia yard and once at the yard saw they we had then missed another LRV and a CSX friehgt train at Cove Rd. At 27th St I saw the infamous Anti-Camden Protective Berm errevted by NJT to block views of Camden by light rail riders and the Pavonia hump yard, on of only 57 hump facilities left in the US. Actually, the Pavonia hump is more of a grade level track positioned byfore a slightly dug out classifacation yard, but it stull counts. I was surprised by the amount of cars in the yard considering South Jersey's more "rusitc" image economic wise.
At this point I felt that we had pressed our luck far emough and declined stopping at the next yard overpass down. at this point it was nearly 3 so we drove back to town and I caught the lunch special at the chineese place. Chuchubob drove me back to my house and we parted on good terms. I am sure he'll have much to add and I should get around to posting pics in a month or so.
So which was it, an orgy or railfanning?
Just kidding, I know it was a typo. Looking forward to the photos.
Mike actually paid for his own lunch! I paid for mine and the crew.
I was quick on my feat getting out of the car with the camera and nabbed some great shots of the SJLR vehicle and it taking a Medium Approach Medium signal, but chuchubob had left his camera in his pocket and could not produce it intime.
Mike was out of the car while it was still moving! I had partially zipped up the pocket to prevent the camera from falling out and thereby managed to prevent myself from extracting the camera from the pocket until after the train was gone.
Here's a shot of the light rail car before its photographically elusive crossing of Union Landing Road.
Between Mike's close examination of the signals at Hatch and our foray onto 27th Street bridge, we made a stop at 34th Street to check out the South Jersey River Line ("Doggle" to Mike) yard. Mike was on the floor of the car with his head under the seat trying to hide from the low socioeconomic neighborhood.
we parted on good terms.
As usual.
My Morrisville photos are posted elsewhere.
That's silly.
Track train is on with concrete ties lrt only for both directions, and other track with wood ties for freight?
True, but we expected a 54-year-old Baldwin to put out some smoke upon cold startup.
The entrance to the temporary station is on Church Street at Fulton Street. You descend two levels to a large intermediate level where there are all weather connnections to the World Trade Center Terminal (IND) and the Church Street Station (BMT). From this level there is a bank of seven or eight escalators down to the mezzinine level where the turnstiles are located. The turnstiles accept Metro-Card and charge you $1.50 for the ride. They will not accept monthly or weekly metrocards yet only those with a stated number of rides.
Many PATH personel where on hand to help direct customers.
The track layout seems to be exactly the same with a five track station and three platforms. From east to west. The tracks are numbered 1 to 5. Track one has a side platform on the east side and is used only for layups or in the event of a blockage on one of the other tracks. Tracks 2 and 3 share a platform and this one is used by the Hoboken trains. Tracks 4 and 5 share a platform and this one is used by the Newark trains.
There are eight foot high photogaphs of lower Manhattan on the wall next to track one showing the World Trade Center Towers.
I took a few rides back and forth between the WTC and Exchange Place. The river tunnels seem to have been entirely repaved and are well lit.
It nice to have PATH back.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I also suspect that there are track-sprayers and/or greasers in use to curb the wheel music. Pity.
wayne
For whom? The greasers help the wheels last a bit longer too. We can do without the screeching.
I was there last Monday, too, at lunchtime. It was eerie going down those escalators - they reminded me a lot of the old ones. I think I read that they are in the same location as the old escalators.
From the E train station
Looking at the entrance to the E train station
Close-up of the sign by the ramp in the previous photo
Sign in front of Century 21
Is it still going to be 20th Century Fox in 2486?
Musicians are annoying because they disturb you and play loud songs. Then they ask you for money.
Toy sellers are annoying because they go from car to car. I'm trying to look out the window and they take out their noisy toy telephones and click-clackers.
People who walk from car to car asking for spare change so they can buy food are annoying.
People who pull the emergency brake are annoying because you waste time sitting in a train that stops.
Get started!
N Bwy Local
(me agreeing with Teeray?)
Happy Thanksgiving by the way.
Some of these people may never have ridden a bus before. The no-bills policy isn't something obvious that everyone should know.
Wow, I guess you never read "How to win Friends and Influence People!!" You complain how people treat you on this board yet you call people who don't know about fare policy fools and stupid. A little hypocritical, would you say?
BTW, I planning to form a rock band with some of my friends from school. We want to perform live on the subway, anyway.
SECTION 1050.6 OF THE NEW YORK CODE OF RULES AND REGULATIONS:
No person, unless duly authorized by the Authority, shall engage in any commercial activity upon any facility or conveyance. Commercial activities include (1) the advertising, display, sale, lease, offer for sale or lease, or distribution of food, goods, services or entertainment (including the free distribution of promotional goods or materials), and (2) the solicitation of money or payment for food, goods, services or entertainment. No person shall panhandle or beg upon any facility or conveyance.
If they want to sell things in the subway, they're welcome to apply to MTA Real Estate for a concession stand in a station -- it's highly unlikely they'd be given permission to roam the trains with their goods.
David
First, isn't it illegal? If so, then lock them up. Also, this sounds like a telemarketer but in person in a closed and confined space. No way, lock em up.
Yes, it is sad. Lots of things are sad. But batteries? How much profit do you make? are they making 100% profit because of selling stolen goods possibly? Are you buying stolen goods? If so, then you'll be locked up. And how many batteries are people really going through. Is she at least making more than min wage?
There's too many levels of what's wrong with this.
Sure `nuff. Let me just ride the train. The only approved selling on them is (are?) the advertising cards. That's it. Anything else is "Oh, well, since there are no cops on this car, and since 99% or more of the riders here are too afraid (or not inclined) to object to my breaking of the common courtesy standards, those being the paid right to enter a public transit vehicle unemcumbered by unsanctioned merchandising and/or soliciting, I'm just gonna disturb their rides with my tawdry attempts to vend crap to `em!"
The worst is when they get beligerant about it. Tell ya, it's a good thing (I guess...) most people aren't, uh, packing. Could make for some interesting trips...
He said, "Have these people not yet discovered the Q Express," which leads me to believe he's talking about the local. The non-Chinese are already on the express.
VC Madman
The price you pay for liberty is occasional annoyance.
www.forgotten-ny.com
On Tuesday, a woman started singing horribly on the 1 halfway between 79th and 86th during the afternoon rush. Little did she realize that she was in the car that lines up with the turnstiles at 86th. The doors opened and most of her audience stepped out. Perfect timing, as far as I'm concerned.
By now I can identify the beggars by the way they open and close the storm door.
Well, that son of a bitch got the friggin' surprise of his life as my man pulled out his police badge with one hand and his gun with the other!! He told the chump "Come on, make a move!!" and the moron was just standing there, probably crappin' his drawers. Didn't look so tough then, I'll tell ya.
I also have no problem with the musicians who play good music (On the platform, not blowing a harmonica in a 5 car set). As long as they play good mucic.
I am not fond of tourist and the elderly on the subways though.
Maybe its me, but when I think of high-tech, I think of cars found in cities such as Atlanta, Washington DC, Baltimore where the cars are quiet, very fast and so smooth thay they feel like they are gliding.
What we got were the blandest looking cars (exterior sides only) in TA history, the ride quality was just as bad if not worst as the redbirds. In fact, when the R142/R142As get to a certain speed, they vibrate something terrible and granted they do move, they are not as fast as the R62s. The exterior noise of the R142s, even when sitting still are deafining. What the hell is that anyway. The R142As or R143s are not like this at all.
But I will give them their props. The interior is really nice and bright, I love the exterior A ends, the interior is very quiet and I love the accelerating noise of BOTH R142s and R142As.
I've also noticed that the R142s on the "5" are way cleaner than the ones on the "2" or "4" and the R142As on the "2" and "4". Why is that?
LOL. just kidding.
BOSH... won't bother me any. I'll ride any chance I get, not that I get very many chances to visit amusement parks any more.
It is enough of a stretch to get on the IRT
: ) Elias
Thanks
Larry, RedbirdR33
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thanks. They must have moved. Years ago I belive they were down around Kings Highway.
Larry, RedbirdR33
They also have a location on the LIRR - Babylon Line - a block or so from the station. Check Model Railroader for their ads.
--Mark
That brings back memories. That was one of me & my dad's prime destinations when railfanning. I actually remember riding at the railfan window(!) of an F train down to Bergen Street and watching a G train relay in front of us, dunno why they would turn it there...and we always tried to figure out where "those express tracks" went (north of Carroll Street). LOL, we had originally thought they connected to the F at 2nd Avenue (we didn't know where those tracks went either).
And here's the directions page from their site:
Trainwold
It's a cool site for a great store. I like how there are directions to get to the locations by train. You gotta like a railroad hobby store that does that...
I've found I've had to raise my EV up to 0.5 or 1.0, sometimes 1.5, to get photos bright enough. And in dark settings like subways, even with my ISO setting on high, forgeddaboutit!
I might want another camera. I'm looking for something that's a little more compact, has more manual settings, and optical zoom. Any recommendations are welcome.
How much money were you thinking of spending? And where would you get the money to buy the camera?
wayne
wayne
This is a still image of a Breda train at Metro Center
This is a movie of a Rohr train leaving Metro Center
Oh, and by the way, this is the full photo set that these images came from.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Two other dimly-lit stations are Pentagon and Congress Heights. Play with the settings and see what you get.
wayne
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Two EOS-1D shots:
Steeplecab coming into Marcy Ave.
Steeplecab behind-the-scenes
Two EOS-1Ds shots:
PATH car in tunnel, rush hour 11/24/2003
Commuters with motion blur, PATH rush hour 11/24/2003
I shoot with various lenses, most commonly a 17-35 f2.8L, 28-70 f2.8L, and a 70-200 f2.8L.
The only way I could justify the price of one of those cameras would be if it had a built-in date feature. I don't mean that it captures the date of the picture you're taking--I mean a feature where I can point it at the northeast corner of Stillwell and Surf Avenes, set it to June 8, 1864, and get a shot of the first West End train arriving.
For that I'd consider taking a second mortgage.
Well, I don't just use them for transit photography. As I mentioned, neither of them is optimal, and carrying around both of them won't work as they're way too heavy.
I was talking to another press photographer at the WTC on Monday and saw he had a 1D with the 100-400 L zoom (which I also have, but didn't bring). He referred to the 1D as a "slow, heavy piece of $h'+". Given it will do 10 frames per second, I wonder what he thinks a fast camera would be... However, he was running his in auto-bracketing mode, so he was firing off 3 shots at a time.
(after it's all over you see your bellows is torn)
My namesake!
Academy MCI J4500
NYCT Bus Orion V
(the size of a handheld Sony Watchman TV! so it's not THAT noticeable
when shooting from the RFW position)..
I got me first one for $329..... And me second one for under $150.
The hi-8 model (VLE-AH50U) records "sharp and colorful" like a DV camera
and even has *MOST* of the "digital picture effects" a DV brags of.
Transfer from 8mm-sized tape to VHS is painless and smooth...
$150 off E-bay... you gotta lie low till you find a closing auction that
NO 1 bid on... ;)
$150 in NEW condition with DV-like performance/features.
(Guess it was a closeout sale from a retailer, or so).
The Argus C-3 is known for vignetting in the corners of the image. Did you find the same problem ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'd go digital, but I just don't have the money to blow on a Nikon D100.
Digital cameras leave me cold. After using a 35mm system for so many years, I'm not likrly to change. Maybe some of you out there with digital cameras can figure out how much each image costs when you factor in the cost of software involved. Cost of camera should not be factored in.
For me, who swears by Kodachrome 64, a 36 exp. roll of film with Kodak mailer at B&H Photo works out to $10.04, not including tax. Basically, that works out to 28 cents per image, not including cost of camera and accessories.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think film is still feasible for rail photography, but when you don't have a home lab, it gets difficult to stick with film for some other purposes.
Best example I can give is this--my wife designs fabric and clothing. She often has to make photos outdoors when lighting conditions are right. She has to make 10x the number of photos she really needs in the hope of getting just the one she wants. She wants Kodak processing, so she drives 10 miles round trip to a shop which sends it to Kodak. Three-four-five days later they come back. If the pix are not quite right, the cycle starts all over again.
And one time the film cannister opened--when? At the camera store? Enroute? At Kodak? The pix were ruined. Now she takes her shots with a Camedia, downloads to Photoshop and adjusts. Not right? Take the pictures again. Close to zero turnaround time.
Except for high-end experts and hobbyists, I think film is doomed. Biggest deficits of digital, IMO, are resolution and inability to make slides (still important in the art world)--but it's just a matter of time...
if you don't buy any extra memory cards beyond the one that comes with your camera, the cost per photo is ZERO. How you you like dem apples?
How many images per memory card ?
"How you you like dem apples?"
You can't teach an old dog new tricks. I've been using the 35mm photography system for some 30 years. For you young guys, through the convience of computers, the digital format comes naturally. But if you had to go the film route, you'd probably opt for digital.
I'm still staying with film, it's the only way I know.
Bill "Newkirk"
That varies greatly, depending on many factors. But my camera came with a 32MB card, and at my current settings, I think it holds 20 photos. That it unacceptable for me, so I also bought a 512MB card, that hold 280 photos, and cost about $110. So look at this:
Price of card: $110
Photos taken with the card (total): 7100 (since June 2003)
Price per photo: $0.015
Software I use: either came with the camera or is freeware
I get about 200 or so photos on each memory card. I have two, and the original one also, that came with the camera, but that one only holds about 30 or so. So right now I can take about 420 photos before having to delete anything if not near a computer to download them. And if by some chance I was a away, and needed more than that, I can always buy another memory card.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks. I've been using the 35mm photography system for some 30 years. For you young guys, through the convience of computers, the digital format comes naturally. But if you had to go the film route, you'd probably opt for digital. I'm still staying with film, it's the only way I know.
Well, I guess I'm younger, but I don't think age has much to do with it. There are plenty of older guys here that went digital. I have been taking photos since the mid-80's as a teenager. Of course like most kids, I started with prints (and me with a shitty 110 camera). When i got enough money together, I gut my first 35mm camera, but still used print film. About 1990 I switched to Kodachrome. About 1993, I bought my current 35mm camera (a Canon EOS Rebel). I loved that camera, and used it till about April of this year when I finally went digital. I still love slides, but love the ease that digital brings. I like that I can be more liberal taking photosm and you can see them right away. It is now my camera of choice, although when going on an "extreme" railfanning trip, I still do take my old Canon EOS with Kodachrome with me, as a second camera, to get a few shots here and there. But to give you an idea of how much I use it now as opposed to my digital camera - I took it on the June MOD trip, and the August SMEE trip, and still have no idea what the slides look like --- they are still sitting in my camera, as I hadn't finished the roll yet..while my digital shots from those trips have been on my computer Webshots screensaver/wallpaper since the day they were taken. I must finish that roll one day....
How many images per memory card ?
I get about 200 or so photos on each memory card. I have two, and the original one also, that came with the camera, but that one only holds about 30 or so. So right now I can take about 420 photos before having to delete anything if not near a computer to download them. And if by some chance I was a away, and needed more than that, I can always buy another memory card.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks. I've been using the 35mm photography system for some 30 years. For you young guys, through the convience of computers, the digital format comes naturally. But if you had to go the film route, you'd probably opt for digital. I'm still staying with film, it's the only way I know.
Well, I guess I'm younger, but I don't think age has much to do with it. There are plenty of older guys here that went digital. I have been taking photos since the mid-80's as a teenager. Of course like most kids, I started with prints (and me with a shitty 110 camera). When i got enough money together, I gut my first 35mm camera, but still used print film. About 1990 I switched to Kodachrome. About 1993, I bought my current 35mm camera (a Canon EOS Rebel). I loved that camera, and used it till about April of this year when I finally went digital. I still love slides, but love the ease that digital brings. I like that I can be more liberal taking photosm and you can see them right away. It is now my camera of choice, although when going on an "extreme" railfanning trip, I still do take my old Canon EOS with Kodachrome with me, as a second camera, to get a few shots here and there. But to give you an idea of how much I use it now as opposed to my digital camera - I took it on the June MOD trip, and the August SMEE trip, and still have no idea what the slides look like --- they are still sitting in my camera, as I hadn't finished the roll yet..while my digital shots from those trips have been on my computer Webshots screensaver/wallpaper since the day they were taken. I must finish that roll one day....
There is no disadvantage.
1) You can plan ahead and buy more memory
2) you can not plan ahead and just buy a new memory card during your vacation
3) you can change your camera's settings when you see you are getting low on space. with lower quality and/or size, you can fit more photos into the remaining space on the card.
4) some cameras even allow you to go back and further compress/reduce the size of photos already taken, to free up more space
Its hard to calculate the average cost of a picture taken by a digital camera. Software is a one time purchase, therefore the average cost per photo drops with each additional picture you take. On the other hand these cameras eat up batteries (using rechargeables might reduce average cost here too). Finally the memory card - that too is a one time purchase, at least for me (I bought one with more capacity than the one included with the camera). Of course if you buy additional cards the average cost per photo rises accordingly...
I just bought a HP Photosmart 945 - 5.3 megapixel 8x optical zoom. Works great so far with the family photos I took today - as for railpics - I'll see how it works on the MOD trips...
Hey! That's the same 35MM I have! I loved thast camera before I got my digital camera!
But don't expect my photos on this board for awhile after the debacle earlier this week.
5x Optical 2x Digital Zoom
Its quite bulky for me when I take quick shots, but its more than enough to get the job done.
The avg size of a JPEG File is 2.2 MB for my Photos off the F-717. Im not posting that here. But a Scaled down version of a photo can be seen below.
It works in the preview
This Is What I Live For...
This Is What I Live for...
You got some talent!
For those who doubt the power of a 2 megapixel camera... you can view my website.
A camera w/ higher megapixels is really only neccessary if the user plans on making enlarged prints of their photos.
Arti
Most of them came with the PC or the camera. Also perhaps I'm using too low of a resolution on my camera (I use STD which is about 300kb each for a full image).
It displays you the distibution of luminance levels in the image. It's probably under adjust levels or similar menu item, unfortunately I'm not familiar with those programs.
Most of them came with the PC or the camera. Also perhaps I'm using too low of a resolution on my camera (I use STD which is about 300kb each for a full image).
I don't think so. It's more probably due to the crappy autoexposure algorithm.
Arti
You are correct. The station diagram shows Stairways S3, S4, S5, and S6 as slabbed over (as well as S10 which I haven't gone looking for at street level yet). It appears all of these entrances (except S10) would have fed into the mezzanine between the 8th and 6th Avenue levels. Some remains can still be seen on the street. All mezzanine traces are covered by "new" construction or wooden barricades.
S3 led to the south east corner of W4. Look for the slab with two vents on W4 next to the fence. On the mezzanine level it would have fed in at the foot of the southernmost staircase (M4) on the east side. Look for vents along the upper wall. S4 led to the north west corner of W4 at its junction with Cornelia St. Look for the diamond plate access panel on the side street. At mezzainine level it would have been opposite S3, but its remains are now hidden by Track quarters. S6 led to the southwest corner of Washington Place. Look for the change in concrete and the double diamond plate access door. On the mezzanine it would have fed in near the center of the station on the west side near (behind) the door marked NA1. S6 led to the east side of 6th Avenue between W4 and Washington Place. It is designated as the location for "future escalators." It appears that it would have been reset into the store fronts (as is the W8 exit north of here). Might have been in the West Village Beauty Salon/Elite Realty area. At mezzanine level it fed in opposite the Washington Place entrance, now covered by Lighting and Station Dept. facilities.
S10 was a northern exit from the still existing southern Waverly Place entrance on the west side. The passageway was to the left of the MetroCard Vending machine and led about 100 feet to the north before going to the street.
Where those stairways *ever* there?
I seem to recal that they were in the 60's, but I may have been thinking of another location. Seemed one came up by a newsstand, and then it wasn't there any more.
Elias
Elias
Isn't there an East 4th St ? If so, maybe that's to tell them apart.
Back in the 60's, Folkie Bob Dylan had a song called Positively 4th St. Written about West 4th St. in the Village. He didn't use the West in the song.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sample of Stations.
West 4th Street (Transfer to 8th Ave Line)
2nd Ave (Transfer to 2nd Ave Line)
Ave D (?)
South 4th Street (Transfer to Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown)
See Mr Brian's comment also.
But wouldn't South 4th St have been the line and Havermeyer St and Union Av the stations?
Elias
They didn't feel the need to distinguish between 7th Avenue Manhattan and 7th Avenue Brooklyn, both stops on the E at one point. Or 14th-8th and 14th-6th, etc. etc.
On the other hand, 7th Ave on the D would never been possible if it wasn't for the BMT/IND merger of 1967. Otherwise the 2ns system would have been the only case in which a "4th Street" station was served twice within a span of 4 stations stops (on the same train).
Before 1967, the D ran via Culver and stopped at two 7th Avenue stations.
But I agree with your basic point.
Maybe a different Seventh Avenue Station in another location but it's the same Seventh Avenue. There's only one Seventh Avenue in Brooklyn!!!
Definately not the same station. And about 19-20 blocks apart along 7 Avenue.
Only because of the subway stop.
People don't distinguish in the same way between W 8th St and E 8th St.
And almost nobody knows that W Houston, W 3rd, and W 4th start at Broadway, the only "West xx" streets in Manhattan to start east of the line marked by 5th Avenue (because there is no 5th Ave down there).
Not that simple.
I don't know about the Bronx, but I haven't seen the slightest sign that the buses in Manhattan are in any way coordinated with the subways in Manhattan, other than that the routes are coordinated (buses are routed to stop near subway stations). Presumably you don't need close management coordination to maintain route coordination.
I agree that coordination is currently minimal, but it could and should be improved. Divorcing subways and buses pretty much kills any hope of improvements in bus-subway coordination. Coordination is useful within geographic areas, not within modes of transport.
Good Words Jeff: And thanks for your help with Trainworld's Location
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-graf1127,0,2753610.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
These punks, if convicted, should be made to pay restitution, then turned over to immigration officers, have their visas cancelled, and be put on a jet back to Sweden.
And a report on them, with their photographs and details, sent to the Swedish police.
They should be made to clean Chambers Street with a toothbrush.
Too bad the old CI terminal was torn down...they could have been made to clean the toilets and urinals with a toothbrush!
Can't afford to pay restitution ? Then don't graffitti public property. And spare me the "freedom of expression" bullcrap.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then you got a lesson in basic physics.
Phila. PD doesn't do that anymore.
One unpublicized method used by the NYPD for reducing crime has been not reporting it. Supervisors are rated on the crime rates in their precincts or area commands on a monthly basis. There are definite advantages to not reporting petty crimes for which instant "quality of life" summonses cannot be issued. Graffitti falls into this category.
Interesting. IIRC, there was a scratchiti case a few years ago in the judge ruled that ordering restitution was cruel and unusual because the vandals didn't have any money.
Anyway, these two could easily appeal on the grounds that the city's prior non-enforcment of the vandalism laws caused those laws to expire.
Obviously these guys did have money. I doubt they swam across the Atlantic.
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most interesting is the hubris of two of Subtalk's most prolific posters. One poster who has "graciously" decided that I'd be welcome to post here again if I decided to and the other who, in his mind, believes that he was responsible for me leaving subtalk. I'm quite sure that we know wo they are and nothing further need be said about either of them.
I was most suprised about the speculation as to why I had stopped posting here. I was not pressured into silence nor was I driven off subtalk by any one poster or coalition of posters. My reasons are my reasons. They have to do with activities outside of my normal duties and apart from Subtalk. Things that have become very important to me and things that demand a large amount of my free time.
The one thing that didn't suprise me was the fact that with my temporary departure, the level of civility among posters did not increase. There actually seems to be more flamage, more personal attacks and more uncivil language since May 9th than before.
I don't feel particularly compelled to mention any of my attackers at this time. I do, however, want to thank those Subtalkers who repeatedly, without solicitation, rose to my defense. It was heartwarming if nothing else. In any event, it's been fun getting all this "press". In all liklihood, I won't be posting to the extent that I did before but will still be around.
Anyway, I just want to say again, have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving!
And I'm glad to see TD back on the scene. I love the fact that he never hesitates to call a spade a spade.
??????????????
If you want to post here, great. If not, that's OK too (it's no one's business but Dave Pirmann's anyway). I think most people understood that was your volition.
I certainly hope you have a happy and peaceful holiday. Congratulations to you and your colleagues and the NYPD for busting a pair of vandals recently.
Miss your posts that were the inside view, sorta nuts and bolts of the TA. If you find time and post again, look forward to read anything new and exciting.
Bill "Newkirk"
Best wishes to you and yours for the holidays...
8-)
Westchester Model Railroad Club Train Show
Greenwich Civic Center
Greenwich CT
Sunday November 30 10am to 3pm
AND
Greenberg Train Toy and Hobby Show (http://www.greenbergshows.com/)
Connecticut Expo Center
Hartford, CT
November 29-30 10am to 4pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/27/nyregion/27FUME.html
In the article the 5 workers were described as masons. What are the duties of a mason?
I would guess that track workers are not issued the "gas masks" that train crews and police have.
Do track cleaning crews carry radios to communicate with their supervisors?
If the 6 men were feeling sick up at 21st Street, why catch a train and go down to Canal Street to report to their supervisor? Being a particularly anxious person myself, I would have called for help immediately.
How does the described response in this incident reflect on our readiness to deal with a terror attack?
The stock market and currency markets all over the world picked up on this story causing the dollar to drop and stocks to dip, until officials said that it was not a terrorist attack.
Work crews on the tracks should have radios. I would suspect that those workers DID have one and perhaps were TOLD by their supervisor to report to him at Canal Street.
Talk around here was the use of the letter (T). I saw a drawing of the Second Ave subway years back with an R-46 type train in the station with the letter (Y).
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course, the first operating segment (the Stubway; likely to open first to 86th Street) will be an extended Q train.
When your great great great grand children start asking that question...
Maybe it'll happen, maybe not. Frankly, except for the prospect of some interesting junctions, a new two-track completely underground subway in New York is a lot less interesting than Hudson-Bergen or other LRT projects, or even JFK AirTrain.
H, I, K, O, P, T, U, V, X, Y
I have seen both "T" and "Y" on SAS plans over the years.
With the 63rd Street connectors, one existing letter is taken from the Broadway line, and another existing letter is taken from the Queensboro line.
Thus:
(N) Fordham University -> Second Avenue -> Broadway -> via Bridge to Coney Island via Sea Beach.
(T) Hudson River -> 125th Street -> Second Avenue -> Bridge via Christie -> Coney Island via West End.
(V) Forest Hills -> Queensboro -> Second Avenue -> Water Street.
Or some such thing like this.
Remember, Second Avenue trains have to go somewhere, and may usurp an existing letter at the distal end.
Elias
The MTA may try using Runic, Chinese, Greek or Cyrillic characters, none of which have been used to date. There are a couple of defunct Anglo-Saxon characters they can use, too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Errrmmm... there's only one defunct Anglo-Saxon letter that wasn't a rune.
I'm thinking of the yogh or yodh symbol. I think they had separate symbols for the voiced and unvoiced 'th' sound....one of them was 'y'-shaped, and turned up well into the 19th Century, with constructions as "Ye Olde Tea Shoppe"; the 'ye' here was never the old 'you' plural, but was always pronounced as we do the word 'the.'
www.forgotten-ny.com
Link: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/sdeis/figs-1.pdf
Now, the question is, will the SAS be built?
Nahhhhh....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nothing that sensible. Two letters for "th" - thorn (which eventually ended up open topped) and edh (d-bar) - used interchangeably.
wayne
wayne
Someday in the future, I'm gonna draw the Second System on a map using similar techniques that Elias did for his website, and then I will email it to those persons who are interested, that way when someone who can't afford the aforementioned items wants to know just where these lines ran, I'll send it to them.
I have thought of doing this. But it became too complicated, since as a fantasy line, it has as many iterations as any routings that I have created.
The map in vol 2 is not precise enough to discern where exactly a train was to run, and it did not show stations.
Elias
I like your website, by the way. It's very interesting to see what the subway system COULD look like in the DISTANT future is NYC is ever to get unlimited funding, or at least roll back some of the NIMBY laws.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
But seriously, if anyone is prepared to collaborate, I could knock something together fairly easily. All I would need would be a current subway map in which the routes from
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
are marked in pen, along with numbers of tracks, likely station locations, plausible names, and likely express stations.
Services are obviously guesswork, but I can work to the following principles.
1) Money is no object: Every intersection has perfect non-conflicting junctions. However, there won't be enough money left over to 4-track anything not explicitly mentioned in the proposals.
2) Long distance services run express, short services local.
3) Each neighbourhood (not necessarily a station if a neighbourhood has two stations close together) should have easy East Side and West Side access.
4) Each neighbourhood should have easy Financial District and and Midtown access.
Anyone up to the challenge?
(in all seriousness, I believe some folks have already picked up the gauntlet, about to revel in their "geochitties free host" and we'll all be wondering why we get a long buzz from the motorman. We see! =)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Yes...it's a newbie board question, but I had to ask. Happy Thanksgiving.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
David
Additional factors involved loading. The original idea was that 8 75-footers could hold as many people as 10 60-footers, but in practice that has not been the case. The seating configuration has something to do with it, as does door design (eight fewer sets of doors per 8-car train vs. 10 60-footers plus the doors aren't staggered as they are on the 60-footers), leading to passenger flow problems, which in turn can cause dwell time problems. Finally, 75-footers won't fit everywhere in the BMT/IND system because of the way the cars turn and because the platforms are shorter on some parts of the system.
As for 67-footers, the R-110B prototype train was 67 feet long, and obviously the BMT "Standards," 67-footers, ran for many years. However, the truck placement on the 67-footers led to the same turning problems that the 75-footers would have on part of the system (the "Eastern Division" -- particularly Nassau Street, Broadway Brooklyn, and Myrtle Avenue, but also Canarsie).
Could longer cars be made to work well over the entire BMT/IND system? My educated guess is that they could with modifications to the structures and/or changes in car design, but there's a question as to whether it's worth doing. 8-car trains of 75-footers aren't really needed on the "Eastern Division," and 6-car trains of 75-footers would be too short (yeah, 7 cars would probably work, but NYCT likes to buy cars in unitized sets these days, and I don't see them buying 4-car sets AND 3-car sets for the same maintenance shop(s), especially since they've already ordered R-160 cars to replace the "Eastern Division" fleet other than the new R-143s). As for 67-footers, again, the "Standards" plied New York City rails for over 50 years. A fifth set of doors on each side would help, as would longitudinal seating.
David
David
Maybe one of the Branfordites can go out in the field with a ruler. Or maybe whoever said the truck centers were in different locations was wrong and I've been carrying incorrect information in my head this entire time.
David
I happen to have the contract drawings for the R-110B contract. They show 10'1-3/4" from the coupler pulling face to the truck center on both ends.
Assuming I'm reading the drawings correctly, the difference is 1/4" on each end. Not sure whether that's enough to make a difference in operation.
BTW, a "Standard" is 67'3" long from coupler pulling face to coupler pulling face. A R-110B is half an inch longer.
David
If I get a chance, I'll look into this further.
David
Yes, the R-110B was only one train and there were no other trainsets of 67-footers around at the time (or now), but I guess it was figured that since bunches of 67-footers couldn't run in some parts of the Eastern Division there was no point in running the R-110B there (besides, the order consisted of three 3-car sets, the full 9 cars couldn't fit along most Eastern Division platforms, and 6 cars would have been too short a train).
David
What is the problem with the R110B? Is it the car ends hitting the walls on the outside of a curve or the car center hitting the walls on the inside of a curve?
David
Robert
wayne
Having stood mere three feet from the actual POSTER, the trackage
looks like a PATH tunnel.... there are pieces of the tunnel wall
which are exploding off the sides and the fella is standing/running
on the trackbed with two running rails and a third (exposed) rail aside.
Surely looks like a PATH tunnel being with their exquisite style of
tunnel construction.... (and low tracks)
So, well have to see the film. IMDB says Paycheck was filmed in Vancouver.
John
(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338337/locations)
No. SkyTrain, along with the rest of the ALRT family, has both power rails on one side of the track and a wide (~8-12") LIM reaction rail between the running rails. Like this:
But northbound 2's are running on the East Side, stopping at the wrong Wall Street station. And 3's aren't running at all south of Times Square.
Passengers should instead be advised to transfer to the A/C at Park Place.
"Passengers should instead be advised to transfer to the A/C at Park Place."
Unless the weather is absolutely miserable, it's easier to walk than take another train. Wall to Fulton is not a long distance. Of course if you want to transfer to the A/C, they should have said to do it at Park Place.
Downtown 2 to northbound 4/5:
From Chambers: walk.
From 14th: take the L to Union Square.
From 34th and north: go to 42nd and take the shuttle.
I don't see any case where it makes sense to go to Park Place, transfer to the A/C, and then transfer to the 4/5 at Bway Nassau.
Obviously, going up to 14th or walking to the A/C would make more sense, but the average non-SubTalker won't know that his usual route won't work.
Now add in the general confusion resulting from the 2/5 GO to begin with. For instance, take someone who enters the system at Park Place, bound for the Bronx. He sees the signs that northbound 2 trains are on the East Side. Just then a southbound 2 pulls in, so, knowing something about the system, he figures he'll take it one stop to catch the northbound 2. Whoops! Now he has to stay on all the way to Borough Hall. Should have gone upstairs to the A/C instead.
Obviously, going up to 14th or walking to the A/C would make more sense, but the average non-SubTalker won't know that his usual route won't work.
This is the same issue as for emergencies, which was discussed at such acrimonious length.
In emergencies, there is no time to print posters. In GOs, there are too many possible situations for all of them to be on the poster.
S/As and C/Rs ought to be informed of all routes that are not running, not just those in their division. They also ought to be trained know the best possible bypass route. Many SAs would probably have the decency to post the information on their whiteboard if they knew what was happening and if they were encouraged to do so.
Example of totally ignorant C/R when the 53rd St tube was not operating, from a C/R on the uptown 6 at the 51st St stop:
no E train, blah, blah, take this train to 59th, cross over, take the downtown 6 to 42nd, then take a 7 to Roosevelt.
No mention of just taking an R from 59th to Queens Plaza.
There is rampant bad management when it comes to helping out passengers in times of non-standard service.
Oh... *THAT* Fulton Street. You was confusing me, because I was thinking of *THE* Fulton street in BROOKLYN!
: )
Happy Thanksgiving, Turkies!
Elias
anyways on behalf of the Roach family and the A 8AV FULTON EXPRESS, happy thanksgiving.
SHOUTS TO TREVOR AND TRANSITALK FAMILY AND DUTCHRAILNUT OF METRO NORTH RAILROAD.
ALSO TO GOD, THANK YOU FOR THIS BEAUTIFUL DAY OFF, AND MAY DAYNA FORGIVE ME AND HOPEFULLY CALL ME LATER. (DAYNA IS MY GIRLFRIEND)
Anyway, Happy Thaksgiving to you and everyone else in here
Is there anyone out there that has a intrest in brooklyn wooden El cars? Currently I am working on fixing up and restoring as best I can brooklyn Bu 1349 at brandford. This car was built in 1905 by the cincinati company and is a convertible. So you can change the windows for bars in the summer months just like 4573.
So if anyone is intrested in helping please email me.
Andy
No one loves the old BRT gate cars more than I do. I consider myself very lucky to have ridden on cars in the 200, 600, 900, 1200, 1300 & 1400 series while they were still in revenue service in the 1940's. I had a particular favorite in Car #902.
1349 was one of the six cars chosen to be part of the last train over the Lexington Ave el in Brooklyn on Oct 13th 1950. I rode that train and it was packed with people. You might be interested in reading this link.
A friend at Branford sent me pictures of 1349 several years ago, and I believe that at that time she was painted brown on one side and green on the other. Is she still in that condition? Don't forget that BERA also has 1227, 197, 659 & 1362. If 659 & 1362 could be restored with 1349 you could run a five car train, if a sufficient power supply was available.
I'm afraid that I am too old and too far away to lend you physical help, but I can wish you well, and cheer you on.
I haven't been to Branford but I am told that 659 got flooded causing motor damage.
Perhaps it is not as bad as thought, and it will operate again. Let's hope so!
Do let me know when you get those pages. They were mailed Wednesday.
Branford has expended quite a bit of effort in recent years to stabalize and otherwise protect their 100 odd cars so that most can still be totally restored. The dampness and closeness to the water table do make it a challenge.
I'm glad that you liked my article. That termination of service meant the end of rush hour gate car service past my house when they would run out to 111th St. From then on I had to ride the steel train to Myrtle Ave where I could change to ride the gate cars on the Myrt.
I know that 1349 needs a lot of help but I'll bet that it is in better shape than 1362! Have you ever seen that one up there?
The years have been hard on all of them, and they are close to being 100 years old now.
Steve L
Steve L
Sorry for the double post
Steve L.
I went into 1362 today to try to get some moldings or at least use some of the moldings from the car as a model to make new ones. Needless to say 1362 is not in good shape and needs a lot of work just to get the car to be in the same shape as 1349.
Andy
We can also paint brushes and stuff like that.
MARC HHP8 #4912 pulling six MARC coaches and an Amtrak cafe car.
For some people, they mite be travellin for the first time on rail, and think: Oh so this is how Amtrak looks like?
I just try to explain that it is borrowed commuter trains and not reular amtrak trains.
*(please excuse some mispellins, my button to the left of h stopped workin.)
If the commuter coach seating isn't as nice (I've never ridden MARC, so I don't know), I can understand that part. But if the train runs at the same speed and the food service is the same, you're not getting ripped off that badly. You trade the fancy seats for more frequent service. A pretty decemt trade-off.
MARC IIIs are not allowed into Penn Station.
Michael
Washington, DC
The MARC III's are rated for 125 Washington to Philly and 90mph on all other routes. They are also prohibited east of BERGEN.
Thank goodness my morning train is MARC IIIs. I regret my evening train isn't.
Michael
Washington, DC
I rode a set of MARC IIIs on the first day of operation. It hit 110 between BWI and Odenton.
Michael
Washington, DC
I've been in MARC single level coaches, the seats are nice, but worn. The MARC Kawaski bilevels have some really nice seats for commuter trains (with reclining feature). I prefer it over the rubber and plastic on VRE Kawaski's.
$80 for Baltimore to NYC is excessive to begin with, but to have to sit in a cramped seat with obnoxious bright flourescent lighting for 3 hours is really pushing it. I won't use Amtrak for this kind of trip again.
Just to clarify:
There is NO food service on MARC car trains.
There was only 1 bathroom for the entire train, and it wasn't working very well.
It's not anywhere near the same level of service.
On top of this, I decided to try Acela for my trip down on Friday. $120 - and the train was cancelled (well, delayed over 2 hours). We were told if we wanted to get to Baltimore, take the next regional train. I arrived an hour late. After holding on the phone for 30 minutes for Amtrak customer service this morning, I gave up. We'll see if I get any refund.
Previous posts have implied that you could have known which departures used Amfleet equipment, and chosen to ignore them as choices. If that is not true, I sympathize with your situation.
If it is true, you have no cause for complaint.
Yes, in retrospect it was train # 3074 which, if I were a better train spotter, would have set off alarm bells. It doesn't specify "Amfleet" or not. The site tells you express, regional, metroliner, and the train name if it has one. For this trip it said regional.
But I don't typically use Amtrak due to the high cost and I don't study train ID #s - and most passengers probably don't either.
Airlines tell you what airliner is serving which departure. It says so on the reservation system, although an unpredictable event (breakdown) can alter that.
Well, write Amtrak a letter asking for a refund, and see what happens. The most you lose is a stamp.
I agree that amtrak should at least explain when booking.
Then make sure the NUM-LOCK is on, then hold down the ALT key and type 0103 on the number pad.
I know when the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad runs their multiple fall foliage trains through the area....many of the cars are borrowed from MARC....It's good to see that the state sees the "big picture" when it comes to assisting other rail agencies/systems.
Mark
p.s.---Have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving---I'll be stuck on I-68 & I-70 eastbound early Sunday morning---then, after the Ravens whoop the 49er's, I'll REALLY be stuck in traffic on the westbound lanes of the highways with all the holiday traffic---UGGGHHHH!!! Oh Capitol Limited, Save Me!!!
Maybe you mean leased or rented? Do they really let them use them for free?
Alright then....good to see the fine folks at the MTA be smart enough to earn a few $$$ on the side..
Mark
Michael
Washington, DC
South of JFK/Howard Beach on the A Line
East of Broadway Junction on the L Line
East of Saratoga Ave on the 3 Line
The Flatbush IRT line
North of 225/Marble Hill on the 1 line
North of Bronx Park East on the 2 line
The Dyre Ave IRT line
North of Broadway on the N/W line
North of 161/Yankee Stadium on the 4 Line
North of Seneca Ave on the M Line
I think that's it. Hope to conquer those areas soon.
Elias
wayne
Oh, you can add that one to my list.
While there are numerous tracks I've never been on, therefore, the lines I've never been on have to do with destinations I never had a reason to go to.
A to Lefferts (been to Rockaway and Far Rockaway).
IRT to New Lots beyond the split at Nostrand.
Canarsie Line beyond Myrtle Avenue.
Pelham Line beyond 125th Street.
I could see taking a train ride to Pelham Bay Park someday. I guess I'll ride the whole Canarsie Line when CBTC is in service. The other two seem kind of off the beaten track if you don't live there.
Canarsie Line beyond Myrtle Avenue.
Pelham Line beyond 125th Street.
Oh the horror...the horror.
You must ride those two lines! I actually haven't been north of Whitlock Av in about 15 years. If you want to take a ride on the Pelham Line with me sometime soon, let me know.
Well, I sure have quite a bit to do yet, but slowly getting there. At least I can say I did do the Canal/Centre "express" Queens track. Eventually, obviously I will be able to add the southbound express track when it becomes the regular northbound track.
Did you really get all those unused express tracks in like on Jerome, upper White Plains, upper Pelham, etc? That's pretty cool.
The surprising one was bypassing 145th/Broadway. The train directly in front of us was having problems (all I know is that it was moving really slowly, tying up the line), so we hopped onto the middle track to get past it. We also ran express north of Dyckman because of a midday GO (that's why I was heading up that way to begin with).
Incidentally, David - have you been on that track?
The now-unused Houston-to-DeLancey connector.
The Broadway Junction-Atlantic Ave. connector formerly used by Broadway-Brooklyn local trains.
The express track between Myrtle Ave. and Broadway Junction.
The Culver express track.
The Astoria express track.
The express track at 138th St. on the Lex.
The express track north of 96th St. on the 1/9.
None of the unused IRT express tracks in the Bronx except for the one between E. 177th St. and Palham Bay Park on the 6.
I'm pretty sure I was on an F train running express from 179th St. once. I know I've never been on the Hillside express to 179th beyond Union Turnpike.
wayne
Between 80th and 88th there are switches, and the middle track from that point on is revenue trackage. It is used for occasional (rare) GO's.
wayne
Nor me. I haven't been to any of the other former Manhattan El stations either.
A LINE: north of 181 St, the Far Rockaway branch off Broad Channel, 104 St, 111 St, and Lefferts
D LINE: 205 St
E LINE: the three Archer Ave stops
G LINE: Court Sq, Van Alst, Greenpoint Ave, Nassau Ave
J LINE: East of 75 St
Luckly, however, information from this site has helped me learn more about these stations then I probably would have by going to them. If I could set aside time to see one of the sections listed here, which is the one most worthwhile?
Wow, you really stopped short on a few lines. You actually made it all the way to Seneca, or all the way to Broadway on the Astoria line, and never went the extra few stations? You'll get there. I had a lot fun "finishing" the "in service revenue" system. It took me about two years, but I completed it about 10 years ago with the run from Broad Channel to Mott Ave (strangely, I finished the Rockaway Park leg many years earlier). With that, I completed the "revenue" system. Since then, (with a long hiatus), I have been trying to finish the "non-revenue" sections, such as unused expresses, connections, etc. Just this year I added a few, such as the Chrystie connection, the Sea Beach express, the 1 express to 137th, and the Hammel's Wye connecting the Rock Park branch to the FR branch.
wayne
3 between 135th and Lenox Terminal
That's it!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Couldn't sit still another 10 minutes to 242 and back, eh??
The 6 from 125 - Pelham Bay Park
The M from Myrtle - Metropolitan
The A from Rockaway - Lefferts
The L from Atlantic - Rockaway Blvd.
The R from 86 St - 95 St
and the big gap
The Brooklyn IRT south and east of Grand Army Plaza.
Happy to report, though, that I have at least covered some of the trackage in revenue service missed by the SubTalk All-Star team including Hammel's Wye and also the express track's from 96-137 and from Dyckman-242.
As I looked at the map, I started to wonder about the total number of stations that I've used, rather than just those I've passed through. Maybe I'll take a count and start a new thread.
CG
Piss! >:(
So the question is, when does the fourth generation of IRT cars begin? The oldest R62s have just made 20 years, so the question is premature. If any additional equipment is needed before then (which I doubt) it was probably be visually and mechanically compatible with the R-142s.
Interestingly, PATH, which is almost as old as the IRT, is still in its second generation of equipment, unless you consider the PA-4s a third generation for having replaced the Class K/MP-52s which replaced the Class J/MP-38s.
The doors on the earlier cars were IRT style, at the ends and middle. PA thought that the door arrangement on the PA's (more like quarter doors, as in M-1s) was better positioning. I agree. Obviously, they now feel the need for three door-sets per car.
#3 West End Jeff
Think about it :-)
David
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I should really post that R190 IRT drawing I did. I also have a very bad render (no textures)
David
"MP"-class cars were owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad and used in the H&M/PRR Joint Service between Newark, Manhattan Transfer, Journal Square, and Exchange Place, which operated from 1911 to 1961.
I don't know about their use in the Manhattan Transfer service, but from the time that station closed they were used in the same Hudson Terminal (WTC)-Newark service that still exists today (with time-out thanks to Al Queda).
Along with their nearly identical mates, the J and K class H&M cars, they were known as "Newark Extension Cars." They were third rail cars, like the rest of H&M equipment, and couldn't run the service to Exchange Place, which was, at the end, a commuter service operated by the PRR.
The split ownership of both the 1920s and 1950s cars was due to the split nature of the service, but the only easy way to tell them apart was that some had PRR markings and some had H&M markings.
wayne
http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/sirt/sirt-grantcity.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/sirt/sirt-newdorp.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/sirt/sirt-oakwood.html
This concerns the date and extent of the elimination. The text says that the stations are 1964. Jefferson Avenue, Grant City and New Dorp are 1966. Oakwood Heights is, IIRC, 1963.
These pages identify the final GC elmination as being "the 1964 grade separation (from Grant City to Bay Terrace, open cut)". This should be "the 1965-66 grade separation (from Jefferson Avenue to New Dorp, embankment to open cut).
I think the error might have stemmed from the fact that Jefferson Avenue was elevated instead of depressed in the elimination, giving the impression that Grant City to Bay Terrace was one continuous project.
By the way, and I don't doubt your expertise in the area, but do you have a published source of the dates? An ERA bulletin perhaps? I mean, the dates in the existing articles came from somewhere (maybe someone's previous Subtalk posts on the matter, but unfortunately I don't try to keep track of the source of every tidbit of information on the site). I'm happy to make corrections but in many cases in the past, I'll get a "correction" that someone else's memory remembers differently.
-Dave
I have a December 1964 picture of Oakwood Heights with the inscription "1963" on it in the concrete below the station house (taken from track level).
As of April 29, 1966, the shoo-fly was in operation St. George-bound, but the original line was still used Tottenville-bound. It is possible the work wasn't finished until 1967, but they usually try to complete that kind of work before winter sets in.
The current stations at New Dorp and Grant City probably have dates in the concrete.
But what about the train the was left behind after the rescue train left. The train that stood in silence and darkness for months as "ground zero" above was being cleaned up. About a couple of cars were damaged, one I believe was a PA-4.
The other cars were towed out to daylight, lifted by a crane and were trucked out of ground zero. But what happened to them all ?
I assumed they were trucked to Fresh Kills in S.I. alomg with other destroyed emergency vehicles and WTC rubble.
Seems nobody, even the Port Authority mentions their where abouts or what became of them. One news blurb back then stated the cars would be scrapped because of their age and asbestos contamination. Can anyone add to their disappearance ? I feel like writing to the P.A. to see if they will spill the beans.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
The PA Reclamation Center is filled with artifacts from the WTC, which first passed through Fresh Kills and were sifted from the general debris.
Last I read (2002) the contents were to become part of a WTC Memorial Museum and included (among other things) the FAA beacon from the North Tower, a number of identifying signs, and the bronze "globe" sculpture, which was later relocated to Battery Park. THre are also noteworthy components from the buildings: a piece of facade which had a 1969 edition of the New York Times hidden inside from construction, and a main beamm that was bent in a perfect parabola by the force of the 9/11 implosion.
The photo only showed 745, but perhaps some of the others went there as well. If they couldn't be reclaimed for any reason, I'd have to believe the others perished at Fresh Kills.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What museum would that be? I think you meant they WILL BE put into a museum in the future.
I HEARD some were donated to a museum elsewhere. I'm not so sure so don't hold me to that.
And I belive some of the other cars WILL BE put into a WTC museum in the future.
Finally, I heard that NJ Transit will take over the Amtrak Clocker service in 2006, when this happens, will NJ Transit run one way peak service only or a full 7 day a week service & will the service begin in either Philadelphia's 30th St or Surburban Station or in Trenton.
I've heard conflicting rumors and speculations concerning Clocker service once NJT takes it over, but have not heard anything official.
Morrisville was supposed to be opened in November. I know that part of the delay was because of a bridge that needed to be rebuilt and NJT wanted Conrail (NS or CSX) to pay for it, which I don't think will happen. I don't know of a definate opening date yet.
I wonder what sort of interstate agreement would be needed for NJT to run express between Trenton and Philadelphia to make up the difference?
To NJT, the few commuters there are south of Trenton can use other Amtrak services or SEPTA. They are basically being treated like the Penna-residing commuters who once took the Wall Streeter and Crusader on the Reading. It does not fit neatly into the regional rail authority operations, so it's a goner.
I would like to see more mass produced HO scale subway cars ( I know some are around but still in the high priced range to get started).
They have those other "O" gauge companies that want a heck of a lot more money for one fully detailed car than MTH. I have a ton of the MTH cars because they made so many and they are availible at many hobby shops. HO is cool but the subway cars cost an arm and a leg so I opted for "O" gauge, they aren't brass but they are big and worth every penny and just as nice. You just need the space for them. Just my to cents in the whole thing. I'm finally building my layout to accomadate the cars. I wanted to run 10 car trains but because of the size I opted for six and keep four cars as spares for the class of cars that I bought. Cool ain't it?
Dave
Dave
The Redbird scheme is due in July - guess I gotta order me some! I have the silver/blue scheme on order. I think this last shipment would allow me to retire the BART cars I have to "kiddie duty" :)
--Mark
I'm hoping the sales have been good so Life-Like may produce other models...
Needless to say, R-1/9s would fit the bill, too.
Dave
R-36 #9750
Regards,
Jimmy
They like to get maximum use of of the toolings. Translate: don't expect any "oddball" cars, such as Triplexes, R-11s, or Bluebirds.
The modularity of the toolings allowed them to recycle materials to produce the R-21, R-17, and R-36 models. Even those models recycles the chasis, trucks, and sideframes used in the "Shortie" R-42 models.
The R-12 models obviously requiured new (upper-body) toolings. The R-32 required both a new body and a new, longer chasis. Depending on how "modular" the toolings are, it is possible we'll see an R-10 made from recycled R-12 parts. I would also expect to see MORE variants of the IRT cars, such as R-26/29/33's, R-33-singles, redbird versions of the R-36, etc.
For the "Anniversary" set, I would be willing to be its an IRT model of some sort. I would hope they make Lo-V (which would require a new body and truck sideframes.) R-9? Maybe sometime down the road. R-44/46/68? Don't bet on it! (Would require a new chasis).
R-1/9
R-15 - I agree, I always loved those round side windows! I'd like these in original colors, and silver w/ blue stripe.
R-33 single unit in WF colors
R-62 - (with '80s "M" logo) It would be nice to see this done in extruded aluminum, but since it looks like K-Line is out of it, I don't know if MTH would venture into aluminum.
If we do get a new set for the anniversary, say an R-1/9 or Low-V, you can bet we will be seeing some re-paints for a while. i.e. R-36 in Redbird scheme, and probably a few others as well.
I wouldn't mind an R-44 down the road a bit, becuase then we could probably get some Metro North M-1's with some minor tooling adjustments.
Chris C. Shaffer
NYSubway18
1. Remove the window track extensions under the side windows
2. Add the "beltline" ridge where the open windows stop
3. Add small, slit-like vents over the windows that don't have destination signs
4. Graft an on an R-17 front end
5. Create a round roof with no vents
6. Create the "porthole window" doors
There is quite a difference, tooling-wise, between an R-12 and an R-15. About the only things they have in common are the square, one-piece side windows and the slit-shaped side destination signs.
An afterthought: R10 in the WF scheme......... :-))
Check out my new all-subway website at SubwaySpot.com!
I have taken johnVillanueva.com and spun off this site from it. JohnVillanueva.com still exists, but subwayspot.com is my new Subway Website.
Some highlights of the new site:
If you are a fan of Subway photography, you are going to like this!
If you are a subway photographer you are going to love this!
Enjoy the new site! It's only going to get better with your support!
Peace,
ANDEE
But the eastbound E must slow down passing through Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd. to switch over to the Archer Av line. The westbound E has to slow down too, through the interlocking, but it can then accelerate through the station and rides at a nice clip to Union Turnpike.
I just missed an E special out of 179th last month. It left just as our R-32 F train was coming to a stop.
The F train going LOCAL past Union Tpke to Van Wyck Blvd is a fast ride. We hit 40 for a few moments before slowing back down.
It would have been interesting to see how the BMT standards would have performed with beefier motors.
I remember riding them on the Canarsie and they definitely gave you that "Arnine on the bridge" wonderment of "is this train going to MAKE it to the top?" as they continued losing momentum ... they were in pretty crusty shape before they went away entirely ...
Wayne
Mark
It may be express but it's often not fast.
I remember the first and only time I saw an R-32 D train zoom past 81st St. n/b. It sure made it look easy.
We have some maverick T/Os on our light rail system in Denver. Some will push a train to 57, 58, even 60 mph at some spots while others won't go over 50 anywhere. Too bad we don't have dedicated express tracks or subway tunnels.:(
EXAMPLE #1: If a northbound A express and northbound E local leave West 4th Street at the same time, which train leaves 42nd Street first? The answer is usually the E train. In the case of a C local, it probably gets to 59th Street first, especially if the A is "cut" by a northbound D north of 50th.
EXAMPLE #2: If a northbound C local train leaves Jay Street 2 minutes ahead of a northbound A express, when does the A catch up to and pass the C? The answer here is usually 81st or 86th Street!!
EXAMPLE #3: If a northbound A express train passes a northbound C local between Van Siclen and Liberty Avenues, which train leaves Utica Avenue first? If your answer is the C then give yourself a pat on the back! The A express has to endure a silly timer on an UPHILL curve north of Liberty Avenue, long dwell times at Broadway Junction, and another timer north of Ralph Avenue. Operating those hapless R44's doesn't exactly help its cause either. In some cases, you can hear that same C pull into Nostrand Avenue downstairs while the A is on the upper level loading up.
Mark
However, recently due to the fall foilage and possible ice, the trains have slowed down a bit for safety and to ensure the T/O makes the proper stop at Newkirk.
But really fast express runs are:
S/B #2 or #3 from 72nd st to 42nd st/Times Square
N/B #4 or #5 from 42nd St/GC to 59th Street (I could imagine the Low-V's in they heyday when there was no 59th st/LL built before the early 60's, screaming down the hill and not stopping until 86th Street.)
Then there was another idea my father came up with, in which there would be elevated monorail with the cars under the rail. Passenger cars would be connected on a four car train non-stop. This train would keep going, and when coming to a station the last car on the consist would switch off by a trip mechanism to a siding at the station, which bumps into another train car and pushes it in motion to connect to the front of the train while the train itself is still going on the main track this whole time. The monorail would never end going into several loops, but there would be special maintenance performance stations where cars are fixed and cleaned up and immediately sent back into service. This system would also be computer operated, and perhaps the concept of this non-stop system would be even more revolutionary than the express train idea in the NYC subway system.
I hope these are good ideas, and they would definitely be better solutions to the traffic problem than building underground highways, or even more highway lanes.
Anyway, the battle to get cars and trucks off the roads should be waged in the medium and long haul markets, not the short haul markets where trucks are most efficient.
I think most cars should be taken off the road. Maybe when they follow the rules, and stop recklessly endangering everyone, I'll let them back. I don't know how NY is doing it, but here, and i'm sure everywhere, it looks like we're one step away from a special traffic fatality section in the paper.
This would be a rant if it wasn't true that 80% of truck vs. car accidents were the result of the car doing something wrong. Trucks don't cause delays and congestion, unnecessary single occupant vehicles and rental cars do.
Where are you getting this crap?? Most trucks are piloted by uneducated gorillas who barely have enough skills to navigate from the diner into their cabs. Most truckers are paid by the load and therefore they drive like crazy madmen, bullying and intimidating the smaller vehicles on the road. When they aren't flipping their rigs over due to carelessness they are driving in the passing lane, passing on the right, tailgating and speeding. Truckers have no respect for any other traffic on the road. Truck accidents cause more damage and cause more delays per accident than cars do. Trucks damage the roads more than passenger vehicles do. Trucks need to be removed from the highways and transfered to intermodal railcars for long haul transportation. Truckers need to have federal certifacation like engineers and stiff mechanisms that revoke that certifacation for aggressive driving.
And yea, there are federal DOT requirements and expensive licensing classes to drive a truck. Just like a bus, or a plane, or a train. Unlike driving a car, where if you make a mistake, you lose the license. You can be like the retards i've seen today and get smashed up on a 25mph road with the street closed down and nothing happens. A truck driver would have consequences. How about those car drivers who can't pass the driving test, or make so many mistakes and the instructer let's them off knowing the traffic cops will take care of it? Check out the chick in the SUV in a parking lot sometime, that's quality entertainment. When they license cars the same way, I'll change my tune.
Trucks do cause more road damage, but roads are for commerce, not dangerous joy-riding. Trucks also get paid by the mile most of the time. So when you're too selfish to take a train or bus(which is usually faster than 0mph) and holding up the trucks with gridlock, you're also being an economic liability. And when your one of those many people I see who cut within 2 feet in front of the truck, guess what, if your the driver in the cab, you do NOT see that car that close in front of your hood(same with tailgaters and blindspot riders). You're endangering everyone. Same with passing on the right when he's got his signal on, that should be considered impeding the flow of traffic and attempted suicide.
next time you have a jackknifed OTR truck on your road, blame the car who cut in front and took off, making the truck lock-up it's brakes. Same happens to me in my tiny car, I could just imagine what it's like in a big object. Being dropped in the #1 ranked deadly driving city doesn't help my control my p-o'd rant either.
Stricter passenger car enforcement today for a better today.
Elias
C Trains run in Manhattan Only
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/49_cno.pdf
VC Madman
wayne
VC Madman
Fred, recalling his first R-44 ride on the F, car #160 in the summer of 1972.
Nah, I doubt it will mostly R32.
VC Madman
You're absolutely right. Not doing this has caused no end to rider confusion. It would be one thing if the F were simply running in two halves, relaying at Hoyt-Schermerhorn [an operation impossibility given other demands]. However, what we had this weekend was two full length F lines which crossed each other at Hoyt. Signing them both a F was an idiotic call; especially as one of them went nowhere NEAR 6th Ave.
As an interesting sidenote, though, the Euclid Ave to 179 St F train began in Queens, and ended in Queens, but not before heading through Manhattan and Brooklyn. How often do you get to see a train do THAT?
David
Interesting. I checked this before I posted but, not enough. The online MTA NYCT map disagrees with you, but the print map agrees. Interesting.
Large, prominent signage would have helped. The signage on the Queens-bound platform consisted of a few handwritten signs near two of the three staircases.
Large, prominent signage would have helped. The signage on the Queens-bound platform consisted of a few handwritten signs near two of the three staircases.
Sure did. The signage was next to nonexistant, and the crowds were really packed in. A number of Conductors tried their best to inform trainloads what was happening en route to Hoyt-Scherm, but poor speaker quality combined with a general lack of english skills meant that they failed to really enlighten anyone. Furthermore, the announcements in the station, when made, were of little help. The F train riders had very likely never SEEN Hoyt-Schermerhorn station before, and certainly not enough to be familiar with it. The station announcements directed people to the Manhattan platform and the Queens platform, which really just changed the question on the crowds' mind from "Where do I go?" to "Where is THAT? Is this it?"
At least two Crosstown trains were signed SHUTTLE. If the full weekday route is Court Square to Smith-9th, how does an extension south to Avenue X make it a shuttle?
And some SB Culver trains were signed (blank) to AVENUE X. Those are the ones that should be labeled F!
It might have even made sense to reopen the side platforms and use them for Fulton trains. Some people would have lost their cross-platform transfers, but nobody would have made an unwanted cross-platform transfer, and all the signage could have been in the mezzanine, with each platform serving only one general service (Fulton, Crosstown, Culver, and Manhattan).
Unfortunately, the switching facilities don't allow for this. The outer tracks lead only to Court St; there is no interlocking west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Those tracks are useful for terminating trains running out on the Fulton St line, movie shoots, and not much else.
Ah, I see what you mean. Sure 4 tracks, but all 4 platforms. That might have helped confusion some, but only if it was properly signed, and I think that this weekend proved that we cannot rely on the TA to properly sign the area.
Even if it would have forced some people to make more transfers, the C should have gone via Rutgers but otherwise run normal, the F should have been cut back to 2nd Avenue, and the Culver-Crosstown route should have been signed G (but full-length trains were a good idea).
Yes, the Culver-Cross town should have been signed G. People would have gottent he point faster, AND the Hoyt station signage already was set up to point people to where the G would have platformed. Full-length trains were NEEDED, the F crowds were quite large. The C via Rutgers is an interesting idea.
Years ago the rush hour "E" train used to go from 179th Street to Far Rockaway.
Rush hour 'E' service to Rockaway Park, not Far Rockaway. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
This is correct. According to my 1972 map, Both Far Rock and Rock Park were served by both the A and E trains.
It would be even more interesting if they ran the Court Square trains through to 71/Continental to replace the G and you could transfer from the F to the F at 71/Continental or 74th/Roosevelt!
1) One run will be Euclid to 179th via 6th Ave.
2) The other run will be Ave. X to Court Sq. via the Crosstown
If you think I'm way off the ball let me know, since this still doesn't make sense. Why not just go from Ave. X and switch onto the A at Jay St.? Then the G could just run normal
Service at Fulton local stations was perhaps at an all-time high this weekend.
But the "Avenue X" section of the F runs on the F tracks south, not the G tracks between H/S and Court Square, which runs east and north.
How can this be? Perhaps the F is running in THREE sections.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There's no way for a train from Manhattan to switch to the G at Hoyt. That may be what's confusing you.
Actually, it looks like either Dave or NYCT is thinking of the wrong GO. The next two weekends (not this one, but the following two), the trains that normally go to Far Rock will instead be going to Rock Park, and a shuttle bus from B. 90 will cover the Far Rock branch. It's a good opportunity to get a railfan window on the Rock Park branch and to get photos.
There were two R-32 sets on the Culver/Crosstown section, but both sections of the F seemed to be using Jamaica equipment exclusively.
Aren't you a passenger too? If I saw that, I would try to correct it (after I took the picture, of course). I have corrected numerous rollsigns in the past.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
was first moved, then, apparently destroyed; in any case, it's not there anymore.
Anyone know what happened?
My guess is that maybe contractors are rebuilding the yard it was in. the old arlington yard has been bulldozed and is being ballasted, with new ties waiting to be put in. Perhaps they did the same to the old con ed yard, as vesy paper just south of the power plant is suppose to get freight as part of the rebuild of the line... (the line across authur kill lift bridge, into arlingotn, is being rebuilt for the container port there - the travis branch is getting the same treatment, for the paper recycler - all are suppose to be operated by conrail shared assets, up and running in the next year or two - surprising to see, considering all the failed promises ton the state gov's behalf to help improve freight service to long island queens and brooklyn...
I just wonder how they cold destroy it without at least seeing if it belonged to anyone or had any historic value...
Not every old vintage car needs to go to a museum, and there isn't enough space or manpower in the museums anyway. That's why there's a scrapper.
Oh well.
Wow. I used to go there and walk into it a ways towards the bridge to have lunch under some of the trees. It really was a nice place to wander around. Lots of tracks, odd stuff lying around. You could hear the jets from Newark but it still felt very rural in atmosphere.
If that track that ran south from the yard and wound up crossing over the toll booth area of the Goethals Bridge is going to be renewed that'll be something. Hell of a lot of trees in the ROW. I used to walk out of the Arlington Yard on that track and it was like hacking through a jungle as it approached the bridge. Then I would usually walk over the bridge into Elizabeth but that's another story.
Thanks for being serious for a brief moment.
Even without federal funding, an extension of the Q to 86th St would do wonders to reduce crowding on the Lex, and the MTA can afford that without federal funds.
Once the extension is built to 86th, the political pressure to extend to 125th would be huge.
I do admit though that I am not that optimistic about seeing a station here on my corner at 12th Street until I am too old to ride the subway.
My response is that the quality of life of rush hour riders on the Lexington Avenue line should be the measure of whether or not any transportation improvement anywhere in the country is required. Our quality of life would not improve, but our federal and state taxes would be much, much lower.
In any event, if Pataki and the boys in the state legislature didn't borrow so much in the boom, the state could indeed have afforded the SAS. Now I'm not as sure. They'll blame Washington if they don't get the money, but I don't want to hear it.
I hope your Thanksgiving was filling (turkey, cranberries, you know the drill).
BTW, when are Queens College and Cooper Union finally going to put your smiling face or anything about you up on their websites?
Rodent control: There's a company called International Pest Control that got a $50,000 contract from the PA to do rodent abatement along the AirTrain ROW as construction was getting started. It was a minority/set aside contract. The principal is a retired Navy guy who did a fine job with it. The PA gave me his phone number and I hired him to get rid of a mouse in my Bayside house. He did a very good job (that was only a $65 job, though).
Why would Geographia, the only NYC auto-oriented mapmaker currently using a hand-drawn version, take subways out of their pocket atlases?
Geographia, once a nationwide mapmaker rivaling Rand McNally (who briefly owned them) has shrunk down in recent decades, pretty much serving the NYC area only in the 2000s. Alexander Gross, F.R.G.S. did the maps in the old days.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you know that Geographia is now owned by Time Warner?
I might go shopping, for myself, I am doing most of my X-mas shopping online.
I took the Q express down to Brighton Beach, and the T/O did not adjust her speed to deal with the weather conditions. It was thrilling to be going down the Brighton express at 40 and not being able to see more than 100 feet ahead of you! Visibility was really poor, especially from Kings Highway to Brighton Beach. Stopping distances were also longer because of the wet rails.
I then went to Queensboro Plaza, and you could not see the Citibank building at all! Not even a silhouette could be made out.
I got some great pics to share from my trip, from Stations along the Brighton Line, and Queensboro Plaza.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've tried the MTA and NJT web sites and see nothing helpful there. One-way fares are posted but not monthlies.
Anyone know?
Also, if you don't mind saying, how did you find out?
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/rail/MainBergen_Pascack.pdf
BTW what do NJT mean by Step Up?
CG
www.mapquest.com might be a better way to go,
BJ's Wholesale Club
Staples
Circuit City
Old Navy
Marshall's
Bed, Bath and Beyond
Famous Footwear
Target Greatland (bigger than a regular Target, smaller than a Super Target)
Home Depot (incl. Gardening Center)
There are also stores and restaurants in standalone buildings in the south part of the lot along Gateway Drive:
Babies "" Us (set encoding to Unicode for proper display of the backwards R)
Olive Garden
Boulder Creek Steakhouse
Red Lobster
The exit off of the Belt Parkway is called Erskine Street. Erskine Street is on the east side of the complex and extends north to Vandalia Avenue which only runs from Erskine to Fountain Avenue (next street to the east), providing access to the outside world. The southern boundary of the center is Gateway Drive which becomes Seaview Avenue at Erskine Street. It also ends on Fountain. Between Gateway Drive and the Belt Parkway is a small nice park with benches and a walkway. It also contains the city's first official Cricket field. To the west, Gateway Drive turns north along the Hendrix Creek and becomes Schenck Avenue.
It is possible to cross the Belt Parkway at Erskine Street to the walkway/bikeway on the southern side of the Belt. The walkway/bikeway runs from Knapp Street in Sheepshead Bay to Howard Beach.
South of the Walkway/Bikeway are the large hills of the Fountain and Pennsylvania Avenue landfills (or as I like to call it, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Brooklyn), currently being capped. One of the two hills still has the new white "roof" exposed so it looks like a really cool moonscape. Eventually it will open to the public as a park, and there will be access to the Jamaica Bay (probably no swimming though) at this location.
The walkway/bikeway is accessible at the following intermediate locations:
Flatbush Avenue
Bergen Avenue (go through the dirt trail at the playground on Avenue X and Bergen Avenue. Cross under the highway along the Paerdegat Basin)
Rockaway Parkway
Pennsylvania Avenue
Erskine Street
The B13 from East Williamsburg, Bushwick, Ridgewood, Glendale and Cypress Hills terminates at Erskine Street and Seaview Avenue/Gateway Drive.
Access is also available from the B82 and B83 if you don't mind a short walk and crossing the Belt Parkway twice (on overpasses of course!).
Articles:
http://www.poconorecord.com/2003/topstory/tdo87736.htm
http://www.poconorecord.com/2003/topstory/tdo68051.htm
However, to make 2007, work will probably have to begin next year, as theres a big chunk of abandoned trackbed in the middle according to the NJT map
That isn’t the only obstacle, of course – once on the PA side, there is the Cutoff ramp leading down to Slateford Junction, which is itself trackless plus has the Slateford Road ramp sitting right on top (which could be converted to a bridge, but that’s even more time and money). North of there, you have Norfolk Southern’s 35-mph (rather light) stick rail leading through Delaware Water Gap, East Stroudsburg and Analomink which leads right onto the (GVT) Delaware-Lackawanna Short Line’s 35-45 mph (heavier) stick rail. The D-L is supposed to be purchased by PennDOT, but I myself am unsure when that will occur.
The State of New Jersey still has not finalized an operating agreement with the State of Pennsylvania as yet, nor has the State of NJ put forth its own share of the $40 million required to get the TEA-21 funds of over $200 million released to get this project rolling in the sense of any construction. It’s the McGreevey administration in NJ that has to be prevailed upon to get the project rolling…
Why don't they just dynamite the mountains and turn it into San Diego East?
I hear your angst. Seems ineveitable. Well, the mountains'll be there no matter what. Won't be like Long Island. And at least with the train service some of the towns will be better prepared for the growth. It could reduce the sprawl effect.
Because they cannot buildin the downtown areas, ie. 1) they are alreaddy build, and 2) there is only one local bridge and one interstate bridge crossing the Brodhead Creek between East Stroudsburg and Stroudsburg. There is older housing stock in the downtown areas, buch of which is going quickly to seed, and with much newer housing springing up like muchrooms all around.
Methinks it may be better this way, otherwise the downtowns will become far too over crowded, and loose thier rustic charm.
Moneroe county has these huge mobile bill-boards, that sometimes carry people inside of them, but if they ran more often (and if perhaps the *looked* like buses) maybe people would ride them into town, instead of trying to jamb the streets with their cars.
But sprawl is a fact and cannot be changed.
Elias
But sprawl is a fact and cannot be changed
But consider the cause. There is no passenger rail service up here at all right now and the sprawl is quite prevalent – all we have up here are the interstate highways and a few commuter buses. (I myself live in the Tobyhanna area, which is not as badly affected…but there is still a lot of building going on especially on nearby State Routes 196 and 940, and it is showing no signs of stopping, whether it be new houses in former woodland, commercial development, what have you.)
Only a minuscule number of people ride the buses; and I myself would not use them versus driving unless the need were incredibly great. I would prefer to use the train if and when it comes up here…but don’t dare call the train any cause of the sprawl, because it is already here.
Of course, I am hoping against all odds that we can prevail with politicians against developer-supplied gifts, post-government employment, campaign contributions, expense accounts and sexual favors.
And if you must know, as much as it does cost, it is CHEAP!
1) at 25c / mile (what we charge for car use), the price already comes close to what I'd pay on the bus.
2) EXPRESS lanes get busses through the tunnel as quickly as possible. We spent ONE HOUR going across the GWB one AFTERNOON long after rush hour.
3) Parking costs in manhattan are a little bit unreasonable, at least by North Dakota Standards. : )
Nah... you won't catch me driving if I do not have to.
But like you, I long for the arival of the train (and not just the pufferbelly from steamtown.)
Elias
NJ of course, wants to get more PA traffic off of its roadways, and would have to spend even more money ot roads than they would on the rail link. PA doesn't give a rip, and doesn't want to spend squat on roads or rails.
Elias
The most vexing part of the whole thing is that NJ seems to want and push for it, while PA drags its feet, not wanting to expend the effort
You have that completely backwards. PA has already put up $40 million towards this project; NJ has not put up their own $40 million (having the money from both of the states is necessary for getting $200+ million in TEA-21 funds released into the project). PA has even paid off NJ for the Delaware River bridge. NJ has not even made any moves towards finalizing an operating agreement with PA for running the trains. NJ merely wants to terminate in East Stroudsburg; PA wants the trains to go all the way to Scranton. It’s NJ that is “dragging its feet” when it comes to this capital project.
[Do any of the older folks -- besides me -- invariably on Thanksgiving Eve think back to the terrible LIRR collision back in Nov 1950? I was a baby relaxing in a crib at the time but I sure did hear about it later on.]
Contestant #1
Contestant #2
Contestant #3
Contestant #4
Contestant #5
Contestant #6
Contestant #7
Contestant #8
Contestant #9
Contestant #10
#7 has the interesting comparison of the new train and the steeplecab locomotive, but theres too much clutter (including all the garbage on the tracks) in the middle. (If you could photoshop that away to leave plain tracks)
#2 Not enough sun
#3 I like this one
#4 Picture was from the wrong side of the platform. Sun is on the other side
#5 My favorite because of the E. State background. The sun on the wrong side could not be helped in this one. It lights up the background very nicely
#6 I am not a fan of B & W but this is a great shot.
#7 Very nice shot too bad I am drawn to the garbage & the barbed wire
#8 Not bad but the sun glare is a bit noticeable. Take this shot / angle at FPR, Manhattan bound, at that time of day between the 4 & 8 car marker.
#9 What is it I couldn't get it to open.
#10 Nice shot, nice background, but that white sticker in the window annoys me.
I will go with 5, 6 & 3 in that order.
Wayne
Today I replaced the awful HBLR route map that was on the site with a much more detailed track map.
HBLR Track Map
wayne
Chuck Greene
-Dave
Nice map, though.
Actually, there are no island platforms there; it's two side platforms. As for the switch north of the station, I believe it's a diamond cross-over. Of course the best feature of the station is the signs over the Southbound platform.
Today I replaced the awful HBLR route map that was on the site with a much more detailed track map.
Nice work David
I hate to sound like a smart ass, but it would be nice to bring back the WMATA track map.
Some here have seen my CAD version that show the G route blue line extension and the M route Silver line branch to Tyson, Dulles and Loudoun county based on the Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project DEIS.
John
This picture, dated 2/1965, shows original New Dorp station where the GC elimination hasn't advanced to the shoo-fly state.
The railroader's term for temporary trackage to bypass a permanent line, used in this case to describe tracks off the original right-of-way that carried the SIRT trains while the original right-of-way was being grade-separated.
In order to change the grade of a railroad under traffic, you typically have to be build two new railroads, the shoo-fly and the new road on the original alignment.
An article in last week's Sunday Times shows that even Tottenville is now succumbing to suburban sprawl. When I first started visiting Totenville regularly in the 1970s, it was two residential sections divided in half by thick woods with Main Street the common street bridging the two. The woods is all but gone now with only a small endangered strip along he south shore remaining.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Tottenville images are found on
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/mainstreetNYC/mainstreet.html
Riding that same route, I got to watch Richmondtown as it was developed. There was no nearby expressway or mall, of course. You just came out of the woods and there was Richmondtown--like entering a small town in Vermont.
I examined the number plates they had very closely and picked the one that looked best. They actually had two 7643 plates. The one I bought looks really sharp after some cleaning.
7477 here.
I consist of 7477-7920-7925 here.
7920-7925 have the curved (lowercase g) bottom..
Mind you, it was a NICE stack of numbers w/variety.
Buy the SUBMERGED poster, brahs!
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
Atleast we can wager that MOD does *BETTER* things with it's money than
COOK da BOOKS.
VC Madman
Now, why were you on my hometown line? :-D
BTW, the LIRR M-7s are Mitsubishi (their first mainline order in the US), the DE/DMs are Siemens, the ALP-46s are BBD, but basically ABB in origin. Oddly, the ABB equipped Arrow III cars have virtually no audible carrier noise, which is bizzare. The technology is GTO on them, though I thought ABB was still playing with high power MOSFET at the time (I believe the X-2000s were actually MOSFET).
I don't even think GE is involved with this stuff anymore - the R-110s were GE and a few others at the time, but I know GE's small inverters aren't GE, and they're a zero in transit now too. I wonder if they even build their own for their locomotives, given how off the shelf a medium power inverter is today...
The French were really bizzare domesticaly - some Alsthom equipment used synchronous AC motors and SCR based inverters, somehow using the motor's kick to turn off the SCR.
What sex are you?
How much property do you own?
How many titles do you have?
Sex: Man and all man
Property: None
How many Titles: I lost count after 50
BTW news 4 said that NYPD has id'd the remaining perp, and they are actively looking for him. Too bad this had to go down.
wayne
Of course, his buddy is not going to want to go to the joint all by himself. Hopefully he'll be smart and cooperate in full (he probably already talked quite a bit).
No offense intended. I should have typed my response a bit differently.
Mind you, I do believe in personal responsibility. "Use a gun, go to prison (or get the needle in your arm)" is just fine by me.
Neither of which are particularly effective when push comes to shove (literally).
Whenever I need to refer back to the US Constitution I go find it online.
To save you the trouble: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters.html
We have very strict laws regarding gun control - perhaps too strict. A week or so ago, one of the local radio shows had an piece about a guy who stopped a crime using a gun. The commentator went on to say that of all the newspapers that carried the story, only 2 mentioned that the crime was stopped bu a civilian with a licensed gun. The facts of the incident just didn't support the anti-gun agenda of the liberal media. Perhaps Mad Magazine said it best back in the 1970s.
"If icepicks are outlawed - then only outlaws would have icepicks"
Think about it.
I think the laws are strict, but haven't been strict enough. Somehow all the right people are restricted from getting guns yet all the wrong people are open to get guns.
Of course, politicians don't get their faces on TV by pointing out that existing laws would have prevented a crime from happening -- they only get on by being outraged and promising new laws. Bobby's law, Herbie's law, Ginger's law, Eugenia's law... they kind of lose their impact after a while.
CG
Of course, you always leave out the fact that most guns in civilian hands end up hurting innocent people. The faqct that one hero shot a perpetrator with a gun does not balance out the hundreds who were hurt with their own weapons or weapons that were too easily available to perps.
"The facts of the incident just didn't support the anti-gun agenda of the liberal media."
The usual low-brow hogwash. The entire media is bent on a conspiracy to take away guns from heros.
Train Dude may or may not have posted "low-brow hogwash". What you've posted is simply a flat out lie.
CG
Hasndguns are mainly a source of death and injury to the innocent. What few cases of heroic action by citizens there are is drowned by the bloodbath created by inadvertent and criminally-caused deaths. That is well-established fact.
Little boys looking for penis enhancers to win pissing contests should look for something a lot safer than handguns.
Like this.
Does the product come with the blonde babe in the pop-up ad, or is she extra?
:0)
The only positive things the death penalty really does is: makes final a sentence on a really bad criminal who has destroyed lives and families; and makes final the elimination of someone who is a threat to people, including other inmates, correctional officers and others who are required to take care of them.
Having said that, I support the judicious applicatio of the death penalty, because the above two benefits are important.
97% of murders end in convictions. You would think that with such a high deterrent that NOBODY would ever commit a murder. Well, that's clearly not true. Humans have a flawed sence of probability. Just as 80% of people say they are above average, a similarily disproportionate number of people will say they will be one of the %3 to get away with murder. So, while the number of gun crimes might diminish somewhat, those that still do occur will end in suicide rampages.
True, but those are also not your "random" shootings, like for robbery, etc. People that know how not to get caught are the ones that are the planned hits, such as the MOB, etc. Did you do something to the MOB that you have to "watch out" for them?
Seems about right. That story is, every once in a while a body in a car will be found along the Belt Parkway. Quick, quiet, done.
Can you supply a source for that? It just seems too high. I've seen too many unsolved cases and a number of acquittals. Even if that statistic is true, although I doubt it, with plea bargaining it certainly doesn't mean they were convicted of murder.
I believe the national "solve" rate for homicides is around 60% or so with New York being higher than average at greater than 70%. That speaks well of New York police.
I don't know what percentage plead out and what percentage go to trial, and what happens to them, percentage-wise.
WTF? Are you so arrogant that you have to invent your own language?
Are you so arrogant that you would use your shop supervisor status bully a C/R into moving so that you wouldn't miss your commuter rail connection? Oh wait, you are.
Welcome to the Jersey Mike lexicon.
But at least when I post a response like that I try not to berate or put down people in a serious way.
*Notice I didn't include Bayside Ron or Peter Rosa in here?
What do I care what you, Jersey Mike and John Blaitr decide to agree on. You're no longer a member of the department anyway.
I said your post was a lie -- specifically your quote "...the fact that most guns in civilian hands end up hurting innocent people"
Support that quote with hard facts and I'll shout that I was wrong from the highest peaks. Will you do the same when you can't?
CG
If you had any facts to present, you would have already posted them. But you don't, so you contented yourself with calling my post a lie. This is Subntalk, so that's OK, but your post didn't add up to much. Back to Sqyare Zero for you.
I served with a disaster medical assistance team for several years. I was a contributor to an NYPD precinct advisory council, attended Compstat, among other things. I spent some training in a "knife and gun club" situations. So I know what I'm doing here.
In the largest metropolitan centers, police officers, armed security guards with professional weapons training and licensure can he reasonably expected to handle their weapons competently. This does not mean they are perfect; there are accidents among them too.
But, statistically, the average gun owner is far more likely to shoot himself/herself (deliberately or through accident), shoot an innocent person through passion or accident, than to encounter a perpetrator where the use of a firearm becomes necessary. A single glance at firearms injuries in any metro center in the country will bear that out. In New York, you can get that information from the NYC Fire Dept. EMS service and/or Dept of Health; the Health and Hospitals Corp. has statistics for who comes in to the ER and why.
The New Haven police are concerned. They posted statistics from the NCPHV: http://cityofnewhaven.com/police/html/safety/handgunsaft.htm
Now, having said that, there is an additional issue of whether to alloew concealed carriage by citizens, under the assumption that they already carry guns. A Washington University study suggested that accidental deaths, suicides, etc. did not increase with that kind of law (compared to a requirement to carry the weapon in open view). There's some controversy about that, because the study methodology was criticized, but I take serious research seriously, and that's what it was.
It is also inherently more hazardous for that person to do so, legally and medically, because police officers hold limited immunity through their actions as agents of the government, and security guards are licensed and insured and bonded for use of their weapons. Both categories get more supervision in weapons use than the average citizen.
Incidentally, in most places, the rules for use of a firearm differ for police and citizens: a police officer attempting to stop a fleeing suspect can pull and aim his/her weapon. A private citizen aiming a gun at someone on the street, even if licensed to carry, can end up in jail unless the authorities are satisfied that citizen was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm by the suspect. Obviously, one of the rationales for this is that the officer is better prepared to decide when to shoot or not shoot, and is required to accept greater risk than the private citizen in a normal day's work.
My dad served in the military (not in the US), as an instructor. There was a rule: if you pointed your rifle at anyone, loaded or empty or even with the magazine off and the trigger disabled or whatever, you got INSTANTLY and SUMMARILY placed in a cell, solitary confinement, for three days on bread and water. Period.
Unfortunately, that kind of instant feedback isn't aailable in civilian life in America. That enters into the deliberation.
A restriction on handgun carriage is one reasonable way to reduce the risks associated with the unpredictable behavior that will happen.
Like many, when you can't support your bluster you resort to personal attacks. Gun fantasies? Sorry Ron, I have none. I actually tend to be anti-gun. However, I'm much more anti-blowhard, and I just can't resist calling someone on it when they post B.S. to try and support their position. That just seems to happen oh so often with you.
CG
I'm not attacking you personally. I'm pointing to a fact - you did not present any facts. I did. My opinion is that you are uninformed on the issue, based on the previous facts. If that insults you, that is your problem, not mine. Change your attitude.
Here's why your statement -- "the fact that most guns in civilian hands end up hurting innocent people" -- simply makes no sense:
Let's start with "hurting innocent people". How can one define such a term. A pretty simple definition would then be people who were shot, who didn't want to be shot. The last year I can quickly find statistics for gun deaths is 1997. In that year, a little more than 32,436 people died as a result of being shot. Of those, 17,566 were suicides; 13,522 murders and 981 accidental shootings. (That's from a 1999 Dept of HHS report). So let's allow for some random fluctuation and call it 15,000 people killed per year by guns who didn't want to be dead anyway (i.e. innocent victims), and giving no credit for the steadily declining murder rate.
Hard statistics on gun "injuries" are even tougher to come by, but I'll rely on the CDC's "Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report" and an organization called "Handgun Free America"'s analysis of that data and use their number of 115,000 annual gun injuries. And let's call all of those people innocent victims, figuring that most suicide attempts by gun are fairly successful and passing no judgment whatsoever on the "innocence" of any of the victims.
So that's 130,000 innocent people annually injured or killed by guns in the U.S.
Now the question is -- how many guns are there? Thinking nothing could be more difficult than dredging up statistics on gun injuries, I was proven horribly wrong when trying to find hard numbers on gun ownership.
One basis for comparison could be the number of guns sold in a given year, although these stats aren't compiled anywhere. I was able to uncover, though, that in 2002 there were 352,000 guns sold -- in California. Given that California is roughly 12% of the US population, one could estimate that there were 2.93 million guns sold in the US in 2002 -- but just guessing that Californians are more gun-toting than average we can scale it back to 2.5 million.
Well, 130,000 isn't "most" when compared to 2,500,000 -- in fact it's barely 5%. And of course, the gun sale number refers only to legal sales. The true number, I'm sure we can agree, is much higher -- which makes the "most" statement even less credible.
Of course, there are timing differences -- so we could try to measure things a different way. Maybe total gun injuries over a 20 year period compared to total guns in circulation.
So we'd have 130,000 x 20 = 2.6 million injured innocents stacked against the total number of guns in circulation. Most estimates of guns in private ownership in the US rank between 200 and 250 million. Let's use 200 million -- since it works the most to your favor. Again, 2.6 is nowhere near "most" when it comes to 200.
It seems your usual M.O. is to throw something out there to make yourself sound like you know something about everything. If somebody calls you on it you impose on them to refute your statements. You post no support of your original statement other than anecdote ("...I spent some training in a "knife and gun club" situations..." uhh, BFD). You rarely have any hard facts to support your own assertions and rely on bluster and subject changing to prove your "expertise".
Let's see you support this one Ron. If you've got the support bring it on. Otherwise, just back off because you're bringing nothing to the table in terms of intelligent debate when you make up "facts".
CG
There's a lot of good information in your post. I congratulate you.
However, you did not follow all the available links on the New Haven police website.
However, where you take them is a problem. Many illegal gun transactions begin with sales that are legal. Examples: Buying a stolen gun that was legally sold to begin with. Buying a legally owned gun in New York without the proper licensure - that's illegal by definition, but it started with a legally owned weapon somewhere.
You have provided data on how many guns there are. But 130,000 innocent people annually injured or killed by guns in the U.S. to the number of guns is not a valid comparison, as you well know. The valid comparison is how many times a handgun was discharged, and under what circumstances. Your putting out that comparison is silly. It's either facetious, or you're lying to us and to yourself. And you know that.
For example, in 2002, there were 11 shootings by NYPD officers of civilians. The majority of these shootings were justified (armed suspect resisting arrest and/or threatened deadly harm to the officer). How many shootings of civilians by civilians were there in NYC at the same time, and how many of them were "justified?" There were a couple of examples of that too (one of them was a store owner defending himself). However, the others were not.
Now, if it were s hard to obtain a handgun in the South (the major illegal importation route into NYC) as it is in Britain, would the number of gun fatalities in NY have changed? The answer is probably yes. Why, because there are a couple of non-exclusive ways you can keep guns off the street. One is by aggressive street-crime patrols (NYC had some success with this and Boston Police really did a hell of a job). The other is by choking off the supply, as the UK has shown it can effectively do, and the Supreme Court has held can be done here.
But at least you posted some good numbers. That's a start. You haven't shown that you have a clue as to how to use them, but at least you posted them.
No Ron. I have years of experience in interpreting statistics from a variety of sources. I will put my analysis against anything you can come up with. The numbers speak for themselves. The analysis is as rigorous as one can do with publicly available data.
Once again, you've spent multiple paragraphs discussing something other than the issue at hand -- simply, whether or not "most guns in private hands end up injuring innocent people" is true or false. That's the only thing I've taken issue with on your posts on this subject -- and seems to be the thing you don't want to even try to support with any kinds of facts.
The numbers I quoted refute your statement quite convincingly. Perhaps I included to much analysis and not enough conclusion. Let me put it in terms should be clearer:
There are more than 200 million privately owned guns in the US. Your statement implies that at least 100 million of them will be used to injure an innocent person. By that reasoning more than one in three Americans will be injured by a gun.
Now who has been lying to us and himself? Or were you simply snookered by an organization that twists statistics (both sides of the gun issue do it with regularity)?
CG
That's pretty pathetic, in that case. The quality of your postings suggests a rank amateur.
What type of personality does it take to feel the need to pass oneself off as an expert on everything? Your attempts to be the big fish in the little SubTalk pond are laughable.
Do I notice that you've stopped claiming your original statement was the truth? That's typical of you, Ron. Fade into the background when confronted with irrefutable facts. But don't be man enough to admit you were wrong.
Have a nice day Ron. Go write a letter to your congressman or something. When you have some real data -- rather than your usual diarrhea of the keyboard -- to back up your comment, come on back and post it.
CG
You forgot to do any data analysis at all. You're too busy trying to poke fun at me. As long as you're having a good time with it, that's fine.
Subtalk may be a little pond in your eyes, but it doesn't need you to try to make it smaller.
I've presented plenty of data along with analysis. You've presented nothing. Sure, you can write ad nauseum about what the New Haven police department is or isn't doing -- but it has nothing to do with your original statement.
Have you played with your gun yet, today? It's missing you, calling to you. Better than sex.
:0)
You have nothing better to say so you resort to ad hominem.
Did I mention it's good to have you back here on Subtalk?
Forgive me but I'm more used to hearing that from women.
But trains and the 2nd Amendment are a close second..
Also, word on the radio is that the 2nd guy from the shooting was nabbed in Brooklyn.
It also prevents a very large number of accidents and injuries caused by improper use and by people who use them in the throes of passion.
Most killings occur between people who know each other. It is not uncommon for violence to escalate between short-tempered people (who may not be inherently evil people) because a legally-owned gun is brought into the mix.
2) Many things kill when used improperly. I don't see any crusade to ban most of them. Civil torts and criminal negligence standards exist for a reason. Let's use them.
3) Most kitchens, car holes and basements provide the same oppurtunity for escla or eclination. Moreover, let's say your wife was attacking you with an ax, wouldn't you want to be in the position to respond with overwhelming firepower?
RonInBayside is very duplicitous and annoying.
Oh, wait, my wife might not like that...
:0)
1. Vote
2. Obtain a car (Banks and bodega owners will approve of this)
3. Ride the subway, except to/from work or other required business.
4. Posses any firearm
5. Residences within a one-block radius of the felon's home should be notified.
6. Attend college (WHY SHOULD US WORKING CLASS AMERCIANS SPEND $50,000 FOR A COLLEGE DEGREE, AND THAT BASTARD GETS A FREE DIPLOMA WHILE IN JAIL?)
Don't fool yourself, the prison industrial complex COSTS YOU MONEY. People in prison are useless burdens on society unless you want to set up some system of slave labour camps. The US spends more money to put more people in prison and ends up with a higher rate of crime than any other first world nation. I am sick and teird of paying a premium for inferrior service.
Okay. See, when I grew up, we were taught the U.S. was the "new world" and Europe was the "old world". I don't like this "first world" jazz, personally. You just don't hear us called the new world much any more in the news and elsewhere. That sucks. I like to thing of the U.S. as the new world. Just seems like a better description. It doesn't seem American to think of ourselves that way. And for so many people of so many countries, the U.S. is the place where they can experience a "new world" of possibilities for themselves and their families.
"First world" makes us sound imperialistic or something.
The terms First, Second and Third World were coined by French demographer Alfred Sauvy in 1952. He likened the Capitalist and Communist spheres to the First and Second Estates of the Estates-General of pre-revolutionary France and the more primitive remainder of the world to the Third Estate.
Recently, a number of people have taken to referring to the "Developed World" and the "Developing World" in lieu of the Worlds Theory; I prefer the Worlds Theory. Just because some country is primitive, does not mean it is in the process of "Developing." If it had been a developing country, it would have developed already. Meanwhile, "Developed World" implies that somehow, all is done, that civilization in the West has reached its acme.
And want to REALLY know why our prison system is a waste of taxpayer money? CUT OUT THE DAMM PERKS:
1. Why should they have cable TV or TV at all?
2. Why should they play basketball?
3. Three meals a day, no snacks is good enough.
4. Why should they get paid a few cents per hour for labor?
5. Why is the criminal justice system is a failure in New York State, cut out one really bloated PORK (no offense American Pig!) out of their budgets, AS WELL AS A BLESSING FOR ALL NEW YORRKERS WHO WANT TO FEEL SAFE: THE STATE PAROLE BOARD SYSTEM!
Incidentally, studies done in the last 10 years show that NY state inmates do not do, as whole, sentences that gets them out earlier than the national average.
The State Parole Board is a joke, it needs to be exterminated PERIORD!
But you haven''t answered the question: If you get rid of the parole board, what do you replace it with? Do you choose to replace it with a simple release after sentence served,with no supervision, no job training and no resources to get the ex-con back into work?
So you are saying that the ex-con needs to get back to the workforce after 26 stints in jail for various crimes ranging to selling drugs to armed robbery, to even attempted murder and carjacking.
Let's see the response to this question from a very generous liberal.
He has to do something to make a living. Once he finishes that sentence, he is released. Would you prefer he be on welfare? Even training for something simple, like food service or construction would be better than nothing.
There was one pilot program in the California prisons that took a small number of major felons and put them through a salvage diving training program (this was a long time ago). Salvage divers, when they attain master rank, can make up to $100,000 a year.
The recidivism rate from this program was zero. Nobody returned to prison, and the graduates earned good wages and paid taxes. You cannot ask for a better outcome.
"Let's see the response to this question from a very generous liberal. "
You're being the liberal here. You're willing to have the felon coming out of prison go on welfare, accept hand-outs and have lots of time to get back in trouble again. I am advocating a conservative agenda.
As for the California survey, of those inmates involved in the survey, how many were "repeat offenders"? That is the crust of the issue.
OK.
"Nnever I have said anything that a convict should not get a job or assist with housing,"
Except that this is very difficult or impossible for convicts to do without the assistance you don't want to give them.
"As for the California survey, of those inmates involved in the survey, how many were "repeat offenders"? That is the crust of the issue."
I don't know. There were murderers among the group, and armed robbers. I seem to recall the murderers were "second degree" convicts (eg non-premeditated( but I could be wrong about that.
This was a vey small group, mind you. I think the graduates numbered in the few dozens over several years. Not thepanacea to our problems. Still, there are transferable lessons to be drawn from it.
Everybody wins, taxpayers win because they foot the bill but the money is paid back years later, the ex-felon gets the help he needs and this is compassion from a person who is middle of the road, I'm not labeled Conservative or Liberal, just being fair.
You guys are arguing over kind of a dumb issue. Newkirk is claiming that two conviction is a good predictor of future crime involvement; Ron is claiming that suitable post-prison training is a good predictor of not being involved in crimes in future.
The dividing line is why the convict was committing crimes in the first place. If the reason is because he or she is attracted to the lifestyle of evading cops and stealing for a living, because he or she thinks they can make a better return on investment by doing that, then they would be repeat offenders. If the reason is because he or she is unable to make a living any other way and is forced to steal, then once they find another way to make a living they won't be repeat offenders.
On that note, I seem to remember a program in either Nevada or Arizona that took inmates and trained them to be trainers that tamed wild horses. Some inmates get killed during training (by the wild horses). Those that successfully serve their term tend to work for the state but earn a pretty good living doing work that they enjoy. (It takes a certain personality to tame wild horses, and if you survive it, you are likely to enjoy it).
Psychologically speaking, some of the "work" that people do nowadays -- perfect legitimate things like being a tax preparer or being a civil lawyer, is really very little different from being a thief or stealing. Both encourage transfer of economic resources from one party to another. Lawyers and tax preparers do this within the legal framework; thieves do this outside the legal framework. Both are morally reprehensible.
AEM7
No, I am merely saying that post-prison supervision and support increases the opportunity for the inmate's success and the probability of that happening. It does not guarantee it.
"Lawyers and tax preparers do this within the legal framework; thieves do this outside the legal framework. Both are morally reprehensible."
No. The presence of thieves necessitated the presence of lawyers and tax preparers.
Being a tax preparer is akin to stealing?
How is being a tax preparer or a civil attorney morally reprehensable?
Why do you find the transfer of economic resources between parties to be bad?
CG
So what you are saying on this post is a felon gets a gun, robs and murders an innocent victim out in Far Rockaway on Thanksgiving weekend, and all he has to do is behave in order to get inmate perks. BRILLIANT.
Like new boyfriends, a free shave with that special modified toothbrush, an after-food fight, contact water sports in the shower, and a blanket party.
The recreational offerings are endless.
BTW, if you enjoy democracy I'll give you a good reason why released felons should be allowed to vote. Let's say that the majority dosen't really care for some minority group and their interests. Well, you simply pass some laws targeted at things these minorities do or selectivly enforce some laws and badda bing badda boom you disenfranchise the lot of them. I mean using this clever little method Alabamma could have passed laws and charged all those uppity blacks with felonys for being civilly disobedent and put the kibosh on any politically power they might ever have.
I will now point to the current drug laws that target a disproportionate number of blacks and is serving to disenfranchise current and future generations as acknowledged by the pannel of Federal judges that makes policy recomendations to congress. If you love democracy you will find this situation repugnant, if you love your prefered position in society as a white male I guess you think its just fine.
Just remember, when the number of disenfranchised + size of the political opposition party > 51% of the population you have a problem. When that number is greater than %66 you have a BIG problem. When that number is > %75 you have a revolution.
Don't you dare call me a tear-jerker socialist. I am a TAXPAYER who is SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of paying out of pocket so that segments of the population can lose their voting rights.
If you feel that criminals can never be reformed, why bother freeing prisoners to begin with? Just have a mandatory life sentence for all felons and to hell with the 8th amendment (not to mention the issue of prison capacity).
Anyway, you can make your own mind up, but just look around the world and through history and see how different groups react when they are deprived of the ability to vote and make their way in life.
I never understood why Conservitives must rely on HERRING name calling to win arguements instead of sticking to the facts. If my arguement prevails upon its own merits shouldn't matter even if I were a Nazi.
If you believe my position to be wrong explain why you think I am wrong. Name calling only make me right.
Just another case where Bayside can be abbreviated B.S.
CG
You can guess, Charles can post facts.
Did you know that cars in civillian hands kill about 40,000 innoscent people a year?? That nearly 4 times the amount of gun deaths! LET'S BAN MOTOR VEHICLES!!!!
If we did that consistently for everyone who had a gun, that would be an improvement.
Also, I do realize there is a ceratin amount of illegal wholesale gun dealings that are done 'out of the trunk of a car on a poorly lit back-road somewhere', but by and large the illegal weapons find their way north due to poor background checks (or none at all).
I think that you're mistaking the sensationalism that is trying to drive blind consumption via fear for "liberal". Next time before you blame the much cited but never spotted "liberal media" for society's woes, maybe you should look toward good old conservitive greed.
BTW, did this conservitive talk radio host ever say how many papers covered the story not counting wire reposts or was there too much foam on the mic for you to make it out clearly? If that number was 3 I would say that there is another sneaky idelogy at work here.
Then from 7:30pm until around 9:00pm it was just the single track train service.
Kudos to the train crews who forthrightly get up the next day after this kind of trauma and continue to do their jobs!
Where is Queens House? Would that be a jail in Jamaica or Kew Gardens near municipal offices?
I did rotations at the Philad. Prisons Classification Center, which did similar functions to the Bronx jail, and also housed psychiatric cases.
The MTA should hold public hearings on a fare increase, at the rate of inflation since the last fare increase, every year. At least, in that case, you might get (say) a four to eight percent increase every two years, rather than fare cuts for eight years followed by a whopper (the pattern for just about every fare increase in history).
Public agencies should maintain their contributions to their pension funds, as well, in good times and bad.
Friday November 28, 2003
By MICHAEL GORMLEY
Associated Press Writer
ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) The State University of New York is proposing ``modest, annual tuition increases'' beginning as early as the coming year on top of this year's $950-a-year increase, according to the proposal released Friday.
The SUNY Board of Trustees next week will begin considering the new tuition plan, after an eight-year span without an increase before this year.
SUNY Chancellor Robert King is proposing the annual tuition increases as part of a no-growth budget for 2004-05. Any increase in tuition needed for the coming year hasn't been calculated, said King spokesman David Henahan.
``While we have no specific proposal at this time, we are seeking authorization to consider a tuition policy,'' Henahan said. ``We are exploring a range of options including indexing (to a cost of living measure) and graduate tuition (increases), which we've advanced in the past in order to provide for a smooth transition, avoid `sticker shock,' and provide overall support for our budget at a time of record enrollment.''
Students through the New York Public Interest Research Group have demonstrated against any further increases in tuition. NYPIRG's Miriam Kramer has said students are being priced out of the state university system.
``This proposal kicks the students when they're down,'' Kramer said Friday. ``Recommending to increase tuition after students were hit so hard is deplorable. It's wrong to dig further into students' and their families' pockets while letting the state further off the hook for funding public higher education.''
In June, the SUNY board adopted a $950 annual increase in tuition to $4,350 a year that began this fall. The board was forced to adopt the measure set by the state Legislature after King first proposed a much larger increase.
In January, the board adopted his proposal to increase the $3,400 tuition by $1,400. Gov. George Pataki, which appointed King and controls the SUNY board, proposed weeks later to increase tuition by $1,200.
The MTA could well figure that if they raise the fare every year instaed of every five years (say) they will have five fights every five years where they could have just one.
A better publicity campaign might help, by making it clear that fares have to rise over time - just like almost everything else - and it's better to have small, semi-frequent increases than occasional "whoppers."
It may seem strange coming from a confirmed cynic like moi, but I believe that most people understand that prices can't remain steady forever.
The 50 cent increase was buffered by the fact that there are a lot of ways around the full 33% shock.
was the EXACT same increase (percentage wise)
as from 15c to 20c.
How many zeros you have or where you place the decimal point is irrelevent.
When the fare was 15c a soda pop was 10c
The fare went up to $1.50 and a soda cost $1.00
No big deal.
The fare went up to 20c and a soda pop went up to 15c.
The fare went up to $2.00 and a soda pop now costs $1.50 in some places.
Not much of a big deal.
As a SUNY grad, I can assure you that this phrase can be attributed to anything and everything that happens on a SUNY campus.
CG
Its not just SUNY. I am convinced that Rutgers has a required freshman course Whining 101. I tell my students theyre going to get an A and they dont have to do their whining homework in my Scuba lessons!
The issue with SUNY is this. The subsidy percent is far higher than for other public universities, but the tuition is high as well -- because costs are so high. I think professors just have to teach more classes, and you need a smaller ratio of non-teaching staff to teaching staff. Then again I tell my alma mater (Colgate) that I'd be happy to give them a $500 donation or more if only they'd raise their tuition and fees by less than or equal to the inflation rate for once.
I'd also like to see a New York State Internet University.
As for the fare, yes certain groups whine equally whether the increase is five percent or 33 percent. And this fare increase was right in line with history -- the first one was 100 percent, the second was 50 percent, and it's hard to find any less than 20 percent. Every once in a while, however, the government should make policy based on what is good for people. If the MTA is made to borrow and put off pension obligations and maintenance to keep down the fare, people don't save the money, they get used to spending it. That makes the whopper of a fare increase more painful. If your costs go up, don't cover it up, pay for it!
I'm not big on fast food, but if I do eat it, I prefer a Whooper to a Biig Maac. :)
More can be found on my site; SubwaySpot.com. They are under the R-40/40m, 62a, 68, and 68a galleries. Also new pics for Queensboro plaza and Sheepshead bay.
Shot of the day:
#3 West End Jeff
I think Broad Channel is gorgeous. I'd consider having a vacation house on stilts down there (with a boat, of course).
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
You should maybe think about photography as a career!
It reminds me of the day I went to this reserve on the Alta Vista Plateau, near Murrieta, CA. There was one pare of the trip that was so foggy, all I could see was like 800 feet of grass, then nothing.
Friday was weird. That fog was so dense like that. I was on a northbound 7 train at 33rd Street, and there was a southbound train at 40th Street. The only way I knew that was because I could see the train's headlights. I couldn't see the rest of the train!
The wide doors are for handicap accesability, you might not like it but its federal law.
Well yeah, the redbirds are something. Subway cars, that are prone to graffiti (unlike stainless steel), have been around for damn near 40 years, and came with a coating of angeldust (since most of you people actually belived that the Redbirds were or should last forever then I came to the conclusion that the redbirds were coated with angeldust)!!!
Hopefully the R160 will be different...
R-62/A's have nice big signs, human announcements, proper signage, and a few even have railfan windows!
Whoever designed the Rmadillo seats musta needed a mad bombastic chiropractor!
Thanks for the correction. Then that's whom you should ask.
"Since they don't do a complete background check on every applicant youmay never get caught. If you report it you could be disqualified."
And able to move on with your life through another job or profession. It's not theend of the world, especially if you are early in your working life.
"Let sleeping dogs lie."
That's bad advice. The sleeping dog could wake up and bite you in the ass.
My civil service history.
Disqualified for a promotional exam for that very reason, after I had paid a fee, after they changed the experience qualification from two years (I met it) to three (I didn't). They didn't return the fee.
Failed to attend a test for my existing title after the date was changed, after I had paid a fee, to a date for which I had non-refundable airline tickets. Didn't get the fee back.
Took a test for my position. Finished second in the city. Never appointed. Only those who demanded it were appointed. Since I calculated that the value of a post 1995 Tier IV pension is basically less than the employee contribution plus social security (which provisionals are not required to pay and I do not expect to get). I didn't bother.
Took a promotional exam. Scored 100 percent. Never appointed. They had few if any promotional positions, and they assumed that since I was working "part time" (34 hours per week for parenting) I wouldn't leave. I did, and got a promotion that the civil service system could never provide.
Twenty year public service career. All provisional. Civil service is a joke, unless you intend not to actually work, in which case it can keep you "employed." If you actually work and care about your job, who needs it? It's just a way to collect fees.
All right. So does that mean he can move up within the TA but not move laterally to another agency?
How does MTA work?
Check out this NY Times story about using vintage equipment to create history. Link here
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/28/automobiles/28MILI.html?8hpib
Keeping on the topic, I'm planning to make a film set in Queens. But the cars running on the 7 will be R36's, not R62A's. How do I do it?
And then there was that famous Bitish mercenary...
I was going to join the French Foreign Legion, "to forget." But I forgot what I wanted to forget, so I just forgot about it.
And then there was that famous Bitish mercenary...
The one who liked to dance around in burnooses?
"British Army, $150 a month; you've got to be kidding me."
"The Africans paid me five thousand."
You railfanning types could make a difference if you spot this guy and call 911.
Newsday story
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-cop1129,0,2911179.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-span
I don't about that. I mean the guy is extremely ARMED AND DANGEROUS.
I couldn't apprehend him yourself myself. Its up to sargent Rosen to capture this guy.
Of course, if you see him in the subway, and whip out your trusty cell phone to call 911, it won't do much good.
I have some questions.
1. How much of this station was made from the original WTC station?
2. Hudson Terminal wasn't used, was it?
3. Is the station using the same approaches as before?
4. Does anyone have a trackmap?
All and all, PATH did a nice job. I cannot see why this station cannot be integrated into the plans when the new WTC goes up. It's a nice station, and once the top of it is fully covered, I think it would be just fine.
Hudson Terminal wasn't used, was it?
Heck no. The station is in the same location as before 9/11. Hudson Terminal is one block east (distinguishable, if you ever get to see it, by the pillars that resemble those in the Pavonia and Hoboken Stations). There were some mentions in the press of Hudson Terminal possibly becoming the permanent station again…but that would require lengthening the original platforms.
Is the station using the same approaches as before?
The very same.
What are you talking about? Is it outside?
That is too weird to me, considering how many levels down from the street the station is.
The south side of the station and the approach tracks are at the edge of the excavation.
photograph from train
photograph from southwest corner of station, platform level
http://www.nyrail.org/path/exchange-pl-project.html
It's not the WTC track map but he might have other stuff there. It shows what was happening on the Jersey side.
And here is a comparison with what was there before:
See this post for a link to a track map.
There was a Metrocard reader, but no MVM's. All this was at the turnstile mezzanine level. No mens room there like the old WTC. That men's room had toilet partions and doors made of steel. Possibly bullet proof ! Never saw anything like that anywhere.
The last time I was at WTC was on 9-8-01, for a ride to Hoboken Festival. It really looks strange because when you ascend the bank of escalators to the upper mezzanine, it looks strange because there is no bustling shopping mall. I had some mixed feelings.
Bill "Newkirk"
One of the final scenes is filmed so the viewer is looking out the front door of the mythical "Compubank," hich in the dialogue is "in Manhattan." You can see an elevated line. During the scene, a subway train of R40 Slants passes by. The dialogue continues as the camera shifts away, and the next second you see an IRT Redbird consist passing by (I don't remember now whether these were World's Fair type R36 cars or another kind. But they were IRT cars (3 sets of passenger doors). The IRT train was rolling in the opposite direction to the IND train. Then I saw what looked like R68s passing by, but the scene was obviously edited (film cut and spliced).
I thought maybe this was the line near Queensborough, but I never saw a lower level (ie I didn't see a double-decker elevated structure) and both trains were clearly visible (meaning not partly hidden as if on the far track away from me).
Where is this?
Now, I'm still trying to find out if there was ever an episode of 'Third Watch' that involved a railroad sequence that could've represented either Sunnyside Yard of the Westside Yards (near Penn Station). A few weeks before 9-11-01 I recall the TW crew was setting up equipment to film at the hi-level platform at the mouth of the ENY tunnel (LIRR Bay Ridge Branch). So far as I know the episode (or footage) was never used. If anyone is a regular viewer of 'Third Watch' please confirm for me. Thanks.
So why don't I see two levels of tracks? Was it just the camera angle?
In that case, I think I'll pass...
We had an R-9 Turkey
with R-33 Red Bird Dressing,
R-32 Potatoes, and R-10 Yams.
There was some R-11 Asparagus
and some R-142 Pecan Pie for dessert.
: ) Elias
The Service Advisory summary page has it running in two sections
1 Between 179 St and Euclid Av
2 Between Av X and Court Sq
which if you read no further is well and good but the Service Notice itself thats been posted on the trains, in the stations and on the web site reads
1) Between 179 St and the Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts stations.
2) Between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Av X stations.
G customers
There are no trains between Smith-9th Sts and Court Sq stations. The
Av X section of the F makes all stops to Court Square station.
Now if the Av X section operates between Hoyt-Schermerhorn (their spelling, although they did get it right at the top of the notice) and Av X, how do you get to Court Square via positive thinking?
Apparently, the F is covering C and G service this weekend, which is clear from the service notices for those two lines; but youd never know how from the Fs service notice. While the details are technically accurate the F will run between Hoyt Schemerhorn and Ave X as well as between Hoyt Schemerhorn and 179 St, the notice would have made a lot more sense if the real terminals of Euclid Av and Court Sq were listed instead of Hoyt Schemerhorn
Oh well, maybe its just me
I think the one cited in the service advisory is more descriptive/less confusing than the one posted in the cars/online. Both should have said "Transfer between the two services at Hoyt-Schermerhorn."
David
Tbis ranks with the recurring diversion called "the 2 running on
the 5 line", which makes it a 5 train in all but name.
Joe Brennan
David
late 1970's to 1989: F express only between 18th Ave and Kings Highway in peak rush direction, if the train originated/terminated at Coney Island.
David
Elias
The 24/7 train in Brooklyn is the Local on that line.
The (F) is the 24/7 train and will run LOCAL in Brooklyn.
The (GG) would *have* to be extended to Church Avenue because the tracks that is relays on now would become the Express Tracks.
The Express, Possibly the (V) would terminate at Kings Highway. (AGAIN! It is the track configurations... just like it does on the Brighton Line!)
I would rather swap the (V) and the (C) or (E) south of West 4th Street, let the 8th Avenue Local become the Express in Brooklyn, Let the (V) go into Chambers Street-WTC, giving the 6th Avenue Line access to Downtown, and putting the (A) and the remaining (C) or (E) as the Fulton Street Local through the Cranberry Tunnel.
It is a VERY elegant solution.
Elias
I like the idea of an express G, but with reintroducing of express service after Jay street, does bottlenecking become an issue here (like Hoyt Schermerhorn gets at times in the AM Manhattan bound).
F remains
V express after Jay to Church
G local to Church
The V can turn around on the lower tracks, the G can turn around at Ditmars. Now both the express and local remain free to flow at 4th Ave, Up to Chuch gets access to the G, and the potental for bottleneck can be avoided if the V switches on it own set of track back)
Side note: everytime I leave Church Avenue on the Ave X bound F, I look at that 4 lane track briefly turning 6 lane, watch the 2 extras submerge themselves and think, man if they could only extend them to the old Bay Ridge Branch and east, could finally access Southeastern Brooklyn, relieve the numbered lines and the Brighton.
Second System: That line was *supposed* to run on Ft. Hamilton Pky and thence to Staten Island.
But dem Staten Islanders got all uppity over poor service, so we packed them all on a boat and sent them to lower manhattan.
:)=
Elias
Elias
The thought of Staten Is being the new place to live cause of a subway extension, then again a few years back the same could have been said for Park Slope and Red Hook,
LRV = trolley = streetcar = tram
That bridge should have always, at least had a walk way, but not going to start my grips with Robert Moses again.
A set up like the Subway Surface Trolley lines in Philadelphia would be sweet
Light Rail Vehicle.
It can do both street running as well as on existing rail ROW.
Elias
I never said anything about the (C) to Euclid. All I said was to send the (C) (all of the (C)) to Kings Highway.
I didn't *say* it, because we were talking about the Culver line, but it was my intention to send the (E) out to Euclid. Of course, it would work just as well (as far as Brooklyn is concerned) to send the (E) out to the Culver, and leave the (C) going to Euclid. However the switch that I have suggested works better on 8th Avenue, where the (E) could once again run as an Express, leaving all 8th Ave Exp trains headed for the Cranberry Tunnel, and diverting the Local to the Rutgers.
Elias
I you don't swap the complete 6 Av Local and 8 Av Local lines
a delayed train can delay other trains by blocking it at W4 interlocking.
A complex "everywhere-to-everywhere" service is nice, but you increase
the chance of delaying the complete subway net.
F->V->C->B->D ...
Yes, but...
The only real merge is with 1) the (V) joining the northbound (F), which is easily controled by pacing the (V)s out of Chambers; or 2) the south bound (C) with the (F) which is more problematical but are outbound trains. Naturally they will be scheduled to make their merges correctly, but of course this is a real subway system with real door holders if not other problems affecting the schedule of the trains.
The (A) (E) (B) and (D) are not involved at all, as they are on the express tracks.
Elias
True, but this can happen now, my plan does not change this. As it is the (C) must merge with the (A) to get into the Cranberry. It makes no difference if it merges with the (A) or the (F).
Elias
If any express service is introduced here, logic dictates that the F runs express, the V local.
If the V runs Culver peak express some F trains run to/from CI for
the Local stops.
CI? 12 tph? Why? Certainly the new plant ought to be able to handle more than that! Why can 179th Street handle more? OK, so it's got more platforms, but the limiting factor is the crossovers, one train still has to cross in front of another *somewhere*.
The Queensboro line needs more tph, the Culver less, but Queensboro trains *have* to go *somewhere* and if they are (F) trains, then that place is the Culver Line.
Admittedly, you *could* send the (Q) train out to 179th Street, and thus need fewer (F) trains, but you would then also have to send the (N) to Queens too, because 57th Street would be erased as a terminal. This becomes possible when the Second Avenue Subway is completed, and the (N) train can run north there.
Every change you make effects two ends of the system.
Elias
The Coney Island terminal is much like Jamaica Center, with the switches placed in between the terminal and the next stop. One train must be held at W8th if another is using the switches. Maximum capacity is 12 TPH. That's why alternate trains terminate at Kings Highway.
The Queensboro line needs more tph, the Culver less, but Queensboro trains *have* to go *somewhere* and if they are (F) trains, then that place is the Culver Line.
I do not wish to see any changes to current Culver el service (it isn't needed). All my service change proposals concern the IND section of the line.
The 24/7 train in Brooklyn is the Local on that line.
So what? The F will run express, the V will run local. There is no need to run any more than 1 route south of Church. Kings Highway is needed as a terminal for F service during rush hours anyway, since CI (currently Ave. X) cannot handle all of the necessary F service for Queens.
I understand your point. Still, as others note, it's a fairly common situation. Look at transferring points like East New York, or Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights. Ever see the crush loads on the escalator to the Flushing Line platforms? Or how people rush up from the A train to get up to the Jamaica el line? I know those examples aren't exactly like the two Bergen Street platforms, two tracks vertically parallel. I'm just saying, riders adopt to the infrastructure. And maybe we shouldn't always base our planning on the behavior of the stupid or the rude.
But I used to live at the corner of Bergen and Bond streets. The (F) at Bergen Street was an option, but I always opted to walk a little farther and get the QB at DeKalb.
Even so, *if* and express (V) or (C) or whatever were to run there, I'd still treat Bergen as a Local Stop. It simply does not warrant express services, especialy given the layout of the station.
Elias
Yeah, I think I can see then necessity of doing that. Since it's so close to Boro Hall anyway. Futrher down the line though, I still think an express service would be useful.
I do agree with you about Bergen, but not because of the layout. There are many double decker express stations, and they are no big deal where they are. However, I do think they might as well not bother fixing the lower level to make it an express station, but again, not because of the layout.
I do agree with you about Bergen, but not because of the layout. There are many double decker express stations, and they are no big deal where they are. However, I do think they might as well not bother fixing the lower level to make it an express station, but again, not because of the layout.
The (F) is the PRIMARY service on that route. It is 24/7, and they ain't going to ditz with it.
An Express, perhaps serving 8th Avenue becomes the 16/5 short turn train.
Elias
This is not so.
The beauty of my plan is that there are FLYING CROSSOVERS on the LOCAL tracks just south of West 4th Street. So it is easy to Swap the (C) and the (V) at that point. The (V) continues into Chambers-WTC, giving the 6th Avenue line access to downtown, while the (C) takes the (currently under used) Rutgers Tunnel.
The (E) can run express or local on 8th Avenue, (It used to run EXPRESS when I was a kid) This arangement means that the 8th Avenue Express trains both take the Cranberry Tunnel making for even less switching in downtown Manhattan. The (E) will run Local on Fulton Street to Euclid.
The (C) can run Express on the Culver.
See. there is even alpha-symetry to my proposal.
: ) Elias
I have TWO trains running south of Church in Brooklyn: The (F) local 24/7 and the (C) express to Kings Highway.
This gives Culverites the option of 6th or 8th Avenue service.
The only inelegant part of this is that it is the local that runs all the way to Coney Island, while the Express short turns at Kings Highway.
But this is the same arrangement on the Brighton line too, and it is dictated by the physical plant, the arrangement of tracks and switches, and the desire of not having trains crossing in front of one another.
I should expect that people will select the train they ride on based on where they are going in Manhattan rather than what is express or local in Brooklyn, but if such is not the case, a goose could get on at Coney Island, change for the express at Kings Highway, and then switch back to a 6th Avenue train at Jay Street. But then you would be changing from a seat to an SRO.
Elias
Absolutley unecessary and operationally infeasible. Kings Highway is still needed to turn rush hour F service because Coney Island cannot handle them all. Only one route is needed south of Church Ave. Most F trains aren't even full until they get to Cuurch Ave.
The V is identical to the F, even preferable to the F as it services the desirable 53rd St stations. The F runs at a 12 TPH headway peak direction in Brooklyn. The V can run at a 10 TPH headway and provide service virtually identical to the current F.
Stop using past experiences with express service here to dictate the future response. Past plans failed because they did not provide a full, dedicated 6th Ave route to serve local stations.
The (F) is the PRIMARY service on that route. It is 24/7, and they ain't going to ditz with it.
Why not? The TA is planning on big changes this February, proving that service demands will dictate service patterns.
An Express, perhaps serving 8th Avenue becomes the 16/5 short turn train.
No way. That would mean a bottleneck switch north of Jay St.
NOPE!
The (C) switches to the Smith-Culver alignment just south of WEST 4th STREET, where there are flying crossovers serving the local tracks. It will use the Rutgers Tunnel, and will not conflict with the (A) and (E) service running through the Cranberry Tunnel.
The only new merges are created: (V) -> (F) North bound; and (C) -> (F) southbound, but this eliminates the current (C) -> (A) merge southbound and the (C) -> (E) merge northbound.
By making the (E) train express on 8th Avenue (such as it once was) the 8th Ave Express services all go through the Cranberry Tunnel, and the Local diverts to Houston and the Rutgers.
The 6th Avenue Express trains both go over the MannyB, while the locals split south of W4, with the (F) joining the (C) for the Culver Routing, while the (V) continues on to Chambers-WTC.
Elias
His changes are for fantasy's sake and defy service needs.
Sometimes a service may appear to be more than what is needed when the only reason for it is to get a train out of Manhattan and to a place where it can be turned conviently.
Sixth Avenue really does need access to downtown... so the (V) to WTC...
Culver gets an 8th Avenue train
since fulton looses the (C) to Culver it is replaced with the (E) to Euclid. There are more (E)s than (C)s but Euclid is the best place to turn the service with least confusion and causes the least amount of gridlock on the line.
So there are a few more locals... over system service is improved.
Elias
Sorry, I meant "expresses can bypass it just like trains bypass any other ABANDONED station, such as 91st St."
When both the Bergen interlocking and the turnaround trackage below Church Ave are rehabbed, this proposed service change will become feasible.
What if you loose???
I'll bet a box of Krispie Creme Donuts!
Elias
I won't. Get it?
I wouldn't!
(GG) Crosstown Local, Terminates at Church
(F) Culver Local -> Coney Island
(C) Culver Express -> Kings Highway
The (F) running 24/7 owns the Culver Line, and makes all stops.
The (C) running 16/5 is supplimental to 8th Ave and runs Express on the Culver to Kings Highway in the rush direction, and in both directions north of Church.
Compare:
The (Q) running 24/7 owns the Brighton, and makes all stops.
The (B) running 16/5 is supplimental to 6th Avenue and runs Express on the Brighton to Brighton Beach.
Compare:
The (D) running 24/7 owns the West End, and makes all stops.
The (M) running whenever it does is supplimental, and terminates at Bay Parkway during rush hours or somewhere else at other times.
Are we picking up a pattern here.
The PRIMARY 24/7 train owns the line, and makes all stops to Coney Island.
The Supplimental Day/Rush Service runs Express (or local as on the West End) makes a short turn at an intermediate terminal.
The Supplimental service also serves a different trunk line in Manhattan. (If you can call Nassau Street a trunk! [sic]}
Elias
Elias
So today the express owns the West End line although it runs on the
West End local tracks.
Sure there is.
(V) is not as frequent as (F).
Having two lines serving the same aveneue (6th) is Redundant.
(F) is LOCAL 24/7 (local on 6th Ave too!)
(C) is Express on the Culver perhaps 16/5 and Local on 8th Ave.
(V) goes to Chambers-WTC via 6th ave Local - Giving 6th Ave a way to downtown.
NOW people get more choices, no (F) (train rider) is left behind, and
Culverites get a CHOICE of Manhattan Routes same as the Brighton Folks.
I don't disike your idea, just that it would require many more changes than just extending the V. Also if you send the C to Culver, what would be local on Fulton Street?
Re-read your question, and then make a stab at the answer. : )
The (E) train of course. Remember I used Chambers-WTC for the (V).
This would run the (E) Express on 8th Avenue, and would eliminate the local - to express track merge that the (C) must now dance with the (A) south of W4th St.
Elias
Elias
David
The DRAFT plans for F express in Brooklyn is summarized in the sentence immediately preceding this one.
NONE
The (F) and the (G) will remain LOCAL,
a new service (perhaps the (E) or the (C) would be EXPRESS.
Why?
1) complaiants r/t loss of service by RICH folks along the Smith Street Line; and
2) The TRACK CONFIGURATIONS at Kings Highway require the Express to end short of Coney Island, just as they do it on the Brighton Line.
Elias
WEHy would they compain? The local stations will loose no service. No matter what runs express, the F or the V, either way the local stations will have the same 6th Ave local service they always had. The bonus will be double service at express stations.
The complaints you are thinking of are when they tried to do thos with the G. Then they had every reason to complain as the local G would not go to Manhattan.
(F) = LOCAL
(C) = EXPRESS
(V) -> WTC
(E) -> Euclid
END OF STORY!
The Bergen St. lower level is a wreck and can't be used -why did they ever destroy it??
Yes, but the plan being discussed is for the V also to be extended to Church, so the G will not be the only option, so Bergen is less important as an express stop. If the F runs express, the V is basically a "former" F so it shouldn't matter to the local station passengers. The G would just be an extra bonus for them.
The Bergen St. lower level is a wreck and can't be used -why did they ever destroy it??
The lower level hadn't been used since they ran express service on the line. They didn't destroy lower Bergen, it's a wreck from neglect. There was an unchecked water problem down there, and the moisture loosened the tiles so they were removed. The station could be usable again, it's just a matter of correcting the water problem (if that hadn't been done yet), retiling it, and adding flourescent lighting which it never had - Nothing out of the ordinary from many typical station renovations. Whether it be necessary or not to spend the money to restore lower Bergen as an express station or just let expresses bypass it like 18th St, and keep it just a local station is debatable.
They DO NOT!!! How many times do we have to go through this???
I don't even remember how I did it but it was discussed before and I concluded that the express CAN run through to CI while the local short-turns. I'll search the archives and see if I can dig it up...
Here are my predictions:
20: In 20 years, most lines will be running OPTO. The last of the R62s will be getting reefed.
50: In 50 years, the first ATO lines will be entering service, after a very long testing period.
100: The subway will be entirely automated.
500: The MagLev conversion will have been almost finished.
:-D
Mark
My render is almost done =)
WoW...
ah er.... I mean MOO!
David
Example:
The cars with the dark blue bench seats (R32,38,40,42) are a style.
The cars with the orange bench seats (R44,46,62,68) are a style.
Finally, the R142,143 and presumably the R160 are a style.
What will the next one be? I wonder when it will come.
WRONG! The R-62s are made out of more expensive stainless steel and they contain no asbestos. The complications that were involved in Redbird disassembly are simply not present.
Yes, it does matter, despite your baseless proclamations to the contrary.
Reference?
Asbestos was still legal at the time these cars were built and so it seems unlikely that asbestos was NOT used there while it was used in the slightly older Redbirds.
Elias
Can stainless steel be recycled ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess it can be... we sold a lot of it as scrap when I worked in NYC.
We certainly recycle it around here. We have tons of stainless steel object lying around in our ah... er... recycle yard... and when some one needs a peice, the go out and find a likely object, and bring it in for refabrication. : )
Elias
If CBTC is a success, then its possible the entire system will be near all OPTO by then, or a few years later. But The R62s will still be around for a quite sometime. They have been reliable workhorses, and can likely go more than 40 years without a major rehabilitation. The only reason the redbirds had such a big rehab was due to deferred maintenence.
"50: In 50 years, the first ATO lines will be entering service, after a very long testing period."
They may begin testing, but it won't enter revenue service at this point. In addition to major testing being done (especially for safety features when something goes wrong with the computers), The R142s, R143s, and R160s will have either been replaced 10 years earlier, or possibly go another 30 years. Due to all the stainless steal, the dept. head of subways has said these trains may last up to 80 years. But say they only last 40...the MTA will purchase new non-ATO trains to last another 40 years at this point. In other words, even if the tech is available..it won't be cost-effective when you placed a several-billion dollar order for trains in 2043.
"100: The subway will be entirely automated."
Well, this may only take 80 years (see post above).
"500: The MagLev conversion will have been almost finished."
LOL!!! Maglev in the subway, I have two words for you: WHIP LASH
This will sound even more over the deep end, but it is realistic according to reports: already scientists know how to teleport small organisms from one place to another (not a very far distance though). If this technology continues to improve, I see no reason why "Scotty's beam room" wouldn't be a reality in the 2500s.
-Nick
What? You mean they aren't still doing what I use to see a lot of: swinging on the poles and kicking at the windows with both feet? That works...
Gulp. Once, I actually punched in a door window one hot August afternoon, on the Brighton Line at Kings Hwy. Must've been a foul mood at the delay in an o.o.s. train sitting there. I just punched it as hard as I could with my bare fist and damn if it didn't fall into the train. Three seconds after that, the train finally left.
It was a long time ago. Yeah, I'm ashamed.
I went home on the Redbird
The way I always do
How did I know
The cops on the train
Were not doing their job
I got off in Corona
The boys were shooting .45s
Subways, guns and money
Are very dangerous
Apparently you do, since the gun problem here is not more significant here than would be expected.
We hear of shootings in the subway, on streets, even in houses of worship.
What does this have to do with subways? Just because you made one mention of a mass trasportation medium doesn't make this post remotely on topic.
And WHY must everyday citizens live in fear of random shootings and gang violence?
No, they don't. Just because you are a pathetic panophobe, doesn't mean everyone else is.
In this politically-correct society, far too many lowlifes get off the hook, for fear of "violating" thier civil rights.
How horrible! Sometimes people even get off on such technicalities like being innocent! WHAT A BLEAK, HORRIBLE FUTURE WE LIVE IN!
What about the the civil rights of law-abinding citizens of ALL RACES?
Everyone has the same civil rights.
You mean present...right?
This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future.
- Adolf Hitler, 1935
If you are sensitive to gliadin, the protein in wheat, then you become in essence, a "panophobe."
No, you become an artophobe. Your panophobe is a mongrel word like ferroequinologist or television.
Maybe he happens to be on topic. He may have just said subway, but you can also include the same for buses, commuter, and long distance trains. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened on Light Rail and/or a trolley car. Most people that I know are now terrified to ride the subway or bus at night nowadays. Where else do crooks and rapists feel safe, but on the subway. Me thinks you guys need to lay off the insults and stick with the subject on the post. Give an honest response without name-calling and treat the guy the way you want to be treated. With respect. You don't like his post, don't answer him. Honestly dude, enough is enough.
Regards,
Jimmy
Yeesh.
LoL!
"They are mystified by one-way streets because they don't have one-way streets in suburbia."
I'm sorry, but if you're too "mystified" by anything on the road, including downtown one way streets, you shouldn't even be allowed on anything with wheels let alone driving. Now we have to make chaos to dumb-down roads!
like, omg dude!
I like the lawn tractor example with the cab controller. :)
When you willingly post on this message board when theres no interesting GO's to see.
When you willingly blow a weeks paycheck on metrocards.
When you use a subway map as a poster.
Regards,
Jimmy
When you kids make little jokes about what you do on the week-ends :-(
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Marquis
Sure it's $30.00 -- but that is for one year, which breaks down to $2.50 a month -- a little more than the cost of a subway train ride in NYC.
And for that $30.00 you get instant access, first time, every time...and you can download one hell of a lot more than $30.00 worth of add-on stuff FREE once you've paid for the membership. There is NO limit once you are a paid member.
If you're too cheap to pay, well, then just keep trying (and crying).
Oh, and if you don't pay and DO get in (which IS possible), enjoy the limited amount of downloading you can do -- there IS a limit of howm uch you can download daily without the membership.
NOTHING in this world comes free. NOTHING. You pay for it eventually.
Two dollars and fifty cents a month is really gonna kill you, eh?
Dave
Dave
All units are either feet or seconds. The system parameters are:
Time step 0.5, simulation takes readings every time step
Accel 3.68, (2.5 mph/sec), acceleration rate from 0 to speed (below)
Emerg Brake 4.7, (3.2 mph/sec), emergency braking rate
Serv Brake 4.41, (3.0 mph/sec), service braking rate
Speed 44.1, (30 mph) travelling speed
Length 510, train length
Safety factor 1.35, 35% safety factor for emergency stopping distance
Max Speed 73.5 (50 mph)
Max Brake Dist 775.2, stopping distance from Max Speed using emergency braking rate with Safety factor added
Mid Speed 29.4, (20 mph) station timer speed
Mid Brake Dist 124.03, stopping distnace from Mid Speed using service braking - no safety factor
Signal Pos -651.16, Position of station timer/wd signal relative to front of station = Mid Brake Dist - Max Brake Dist
Space 100, minimum space between trains (follower stopped) with CBTC
The train speed profile: trains accelerate uniformly to a constant speed. Trains brake at a constant deceleration to a complete stop.
Case 1: No Station Timer. - The leader starts at 0 velocity with acceleration until it reaches Speed. It then continues at Speed. The follower will not enter the station until the leader's rear has moved past the Max Brake Dist. The follower enters the station at speed, brakes are applied at service braking rate and train stops at front of station. The time from when the leader starts to move until the follower comes to a complete stop is 52 seconds.
Case 2: Station Timer. The leader starts at 0 velocity with acceleration until it reaches Speed. It then continues at Speed. The follower will reach the Signal Pos at Mid Speed, when the leader's rear has moved past the Mid Brake Distance. The follower will continue at Mid Speed, service brakes are applied and the train stops at the front of the station. The time from when the leader start to move until the follower comes to a complete stop is 46 seconds.
Case 3: Keying-by. The leader starts at 0 velocity with acceleration until it reaches Speed. It then continues at speed. The follower is stopped Space behind the leader's rear at time 0. At each time step, the follower determines the distance between its front and the leader's rear. It then subtracts Space from this distance and divides by the Safety Factor. It then calculates the maximum safe velocity based on this distance and the emergency braking rate. It also calculates the velocity based on its current velocity and the acceleration. The follower chooses its next velocity as the minimum of the safe braking velocity, the max accelerated velocity and Speed. The follower's position at the next time step is its current position plus this minimum velocity times the time step. Also calculated at each time step are: the service braking distance without a safety factor based on current velocity and service braking rate; the service braking time (current velocity divided by service braking rate); and the position at complete stop (current position + service braking distance). The time from when the leader starts to move until the follower comes to a complete stop is 30 seconds.
These times represent two of the three components for determining track capacity at a station: acceleration time and braking time. The third component is dwell time: the time from when the doors open until the train starts to move. Thus 90 second headways (40 tph) requires a maximum dwell time of 38 seconds without station timers; a maximum dwell time of 44 seconds with station timers and a maximum dwell time of 60 seconds with keying-by.
The fact that they are adding the 10 second delay to most signals is also a slow down.
This makes keying by less efficient if you have to key by more than the entering signal.
No, I did not include a 10-second delay. The method I described would be analagous to a CBTC system with ATO - the best of all possible worlds - except to T/O's.
The simulation shows that keying-by is not necessary for 40 tph operation. The 44 second dwell time afforded with station timers is adequate. So is the 38 second dwell time afforded without station timers.
Unless you have worked closely with any train crews regarding their duties, you cannot claim to know what train crews like or don't like.
The T/O becomes an observer, like he/she is on Metrorail. You'll always need that.
Look, every job description has an "endpoint" somewhere. There are a few elevator operators, flight engineers, steam loco firemen and other similar workers left, but those jobs are fast disappearing.
The T/O description may, too. If you don't like it, the answer is not to try to hang on to an old job via union coercion, because in the long run you'll just lose anyway. Retrain and get yourself a new job.
I think current T/O's are more worried about the lack of T/O's on Docklands, SkyTrain, Meteor, etc.
Suppose the effective constant service braking rate were 1.5 mph/sec instead of 3.2. Then the time from when the leader starts until when the follower stops is: 57 instead of 52 seconds for no station timer; 49 instead of 46 seconds with a station timer and 33 instead of 29 seconds for keying-by.
Is an extra 3-5 seconds per station important for the big picture? That depends on what happens to the lost time. It doesn't mean squat, if the follower can still leave the station on time. OTOH, neither the CR nor the T/O have any way of knowing what leaving a station means, so the delays can be cummulative cumulative. This can add up to a missed merge at a switch after only 6 stations @ 30 tph.
1) Since dwell times (time the train is FULLY stopped) at stations, as long as there is no delay in front, are usually only 23-25 seconds, does that imply that 90-second headways should be a cinch on the IRT (only judging by what you could tell, and excluding relays and switches)?
2) Saying a train can't reach your "Speed" and only hits 25 MPH or so between stations, or saying there's a curve that requires trains to slow but there's no station around, does it make a difference?
3) In the same situation as question 2, is it worse when there IS a station close by?
I would not categorize anything doing with subway operations as a "cinch". However, the model indicates that 90-second headways are theoretically possible and viable. I've always found it easier to implement something that is theoretically possible than trying to implement something that is theoretically impossible.
For the record: the definition for dwell time interval when the doors open until the train starts moving. Any time spent stopped in the station before the doors open is part of the braking or approach time. This means that I have not included the time it takes the C/R to open the doors once the follower has stopped in my analysis.
2) Saying a train can't reach your "Speed" and only hits 25 MPH or so between stations, or saying there's a curve that requires trains to slow but there's no station around, does it make a difference?
Let's go to the model. Without station timers 52 seconds becomes 58 seconds; with station timers 46 seconds becomes 48 seconds and with keying-by 29 seconds becomes 30 seconds.
3) In the same situation as question 2, is it worse when there IS a station close by?
The leader has to travel Max Brake Distance plus Train Length (775+510 = 1285') without a station timer. If there's a station within that distance it will have a definite effect. However, the leader has to travel Mid Brake Distance plus Train Length (124+510 = 634') with a station timer. That figure should not present a realistic problem.
propulsion. I don't have the AC traction specs.
Your point is well taken. That was the reason for making the acceleration a parameter that could be easily modified. The critical information is how long it takes the rear of the train to reach either the Max Brake Distance (no station timer) or the Mid Brake Distance (station timer). One could vary the acceleration parameter to so that this point corresponds to what an actual acceleration curve would yield.
Alternatively, one could also substitute a model for the acceleration curve. Could you be a little more precise about what you mean by the rate asymptotically approaching 0. I could substitute a function or a lookup table to make my model more realistic. Hell, this is child's play compared to simulating three dimensional rocket flight from wind tunnel data. I believe the TA spends several $100K for simulation software that more accurately mimics the real acceleration curve.
I don't have the AC traction specs.
An AC motor controller can duplicate just about any desired acceleration curve. However, I believe the TA has insisted that their AC traction specs should exactly duplicate what the DC motors currently do and no more. Thus, the TA's cars for the 21st century will be limited to mid 20th century performance. I think that's a longer span of planned obsolessence than the LIRR's compatibility fiasco.
I believe, but I have not confirmed this, that the AC traction
equipment delivers higher acceleration rates as high speeds.
I've implemented your first approximation to acceleration profile in the spreadsheet. I've added a column that calculates the acceleration. It looks at the previous time step's leader speed and chooses either 2.5 mph/sec or an interpolated value based on the previous time step's leader speed within the range of (19, 42). The leader's velocity column was modified to take the previous time step velocity and add the product of the current acceleration by the time step. The initial acceleration (2.5 mph/sec), the acceleration limit (19 mph) and the balancing speed (42 mph) are defined in individual cells to make it easy to change to any DC traction equipment.
This new realism increases sum of leader's acceleration and follower's braking time from 51.56 seconds to 52.06 seconds for the case with no station timer. The differences for the other cases (station timer and keying-by) are less dramatic.
The reason for this is that I'm still setting the leader's travelling speed at 30 mph. Changing this parameter has a greater influence on available dwell time for the no station timer case. The higher the travelling speed the more dwell time available. The difference is negligible for the station timer case and nil for keying-by case.
Essentially yes. Although I would equate "coasting" to mean subject to wind resistance that would cause a train's velocity to decay exponentially with time. I'm assuming that the train is maintaining its "travelling speed".
Why?
It's been my experience something like the next station or a speed restriction frequently comes before a train reaches balancing speed. I wanted my simulation to handle this situation. If I set my travelling speed to the balancing speed, then the leader never coasts. 30 mph seemed like a reasonable number based on peeking at cab speedometers.
NY Times link
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/29/nyregion/29JETS.html
The meeting will take place this Wednesday(12/3) at 5PM at 126 Stuyvasent Place in Staten Island.Be there to voice your own opinions and to support the new SF terminal.
VC Madman
I thought that seemed a good idea that could save hundreds of millions, and I sent the following email to MTA.
"Have you considered the possibility of simply replacing the single short curved platform at South Ferry by a single long straight platform? I believe that there is a long enough, straight enough, stretch of the southbound track, north of the present station, to make that possible."
Two days later I got the following reply:
"Response (Doug Sussman) - 11/17/2003 10:31 AM
Dear Mr. Fairthorne:
Thank you for your e-mail concerning the South Ferry Station project.
I have passed along your suggestion to the South Ferry Terminal study team for their review and consideration. If they need further information from you, they will contact you.
Your comments are most appreciated. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know or refer to our website at www.mta.info."
I did not pursue the matter further and unfortunately I cannot attend the hearing.
Share your email with the Manhattan Borough President's office.
Where is 126 Stuyvesant Place? I'm done for the day before 3, so if I don't have to stick around late and I can figure out how to get there, I'll try to make it and voice my concern. (Why do you assume that everyone here supports a plan that will possibly cause permanent service reductions on the 1/9 and will almost certainly eliminate the possibility of any future service increases?)
Gee, could it be because the majority of people getting on at SF each morning are Staten Islanders?
Besides, how many Staten Islanders who commute by ferry will be on Staten Island at 5pm?
Seems to me that somebody is treating this as a mere formality and doesn't want public input. Robert Moses lives (except he dispensed with the formalities as well).
There really should be two meetings, but the meeting they have announced is where it should be.
Manhattan locals can take the ferry to SI and go to the meetings too.
If you don't want to attend - it's your fault, not the TA's.
The TA requires a formal Freedom of Information request to their legal department before they will divulge any information regarding the South Ferry Project.
If the Staten Island folks speak in favor of it, that's fine. If they don't like it, that's fine too. They are a legitimate ferry- and subway-dependent constituency, and they deserve a say in how the terminal is developed.
If you think MTA has it wrong, it is up to you to take your concerns to the meeting in SI and present your objections. Show Staten Islanders at the meeting what MTA's plan, in your opinion, means.
I'm surprised most of the speakers spoke against. About how many spoke, and what issues did they raise?
One ferry rider pointed out that every ferry rider knows how seconds can matter when catching the ferry, while minutes are lost at Rector, as people move forwards, and in the loop, where they have to wait for the gap fillers and egress is limited.
They are holding a hearing in SI because they caught flack for having what was little more than a Manhattan Community Board i hearing at the Customs House.
If you live elsewhere on the line and have an opinion, go to SI rr submitted in print or by email. Or, complain about the lack of publicity for the first hearing and maybe they will have one at 347.
By the way, the Feds have decided that the project does not require an Environmental Impact Statement, so these hearing are not technically Scoping Meetings. While the Feds will probably get the testimony and expect responses from the MTA, this will not lead to a Draft EIS, with hearings, and then a Final EIS. It is probably followed by a final plan for FTA approval.
A Subtalker presenting the terminal vs. loop analysis offers at least a reasoned, intelligent contribution to the hearing.
Another $400 million to undo the damage.
From the press release, "Poster Boards and exhibits depicting the project concept will be available for review at the meeting location from 5 to 6 p.m., followed by a presentation at 6 p.m. and public comment. Those wishing to speak must register before 7 p.m. at the meeting location." Most people leaving work by 5:15 could get there by 7:00; those who can't may e-mail their comments.
Where is 126 Stuyvesant Place?
One block up Schuyler Street across from the ferry terminal, behind the Supreme Court building.
Here's another URL: http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sft/
Link here
Thanks for posting the info and encouraging people to attend. You're a good person.
Yes he is.
You are not.
Look at the money wasted for an escalator at Bowling Green station, one that will never ever see passenger service in it's lifetime.
OOOOOOHHHHHHH I JUST CAN'T WAIT UNTIL I GET THERE AND GO TO THE PODIUM, FACING MR. SUSSMAN.
Prepare for it. Bring a thought-out theme with some supporting points. Make a resoned argument, and then hand in a letter restating your most important points. Share them via letter or email or fax with the Manhattan Borough Prez and with other elected officials.
Refrain from "ranting," because this will only lead the MTA folks to dismiss your comments (and I wouldbe tempted to react the same way).
For people using the rest of the line tje issue is frequency and turnabout times. We have already discussed to death the turn around problems at the North end of the line (though I'd certainly be happy to do it all over again if anybody wants.) The biggest problem is the STOOPIT switch arrangement at 242 Street. Nothing can IMPROVE service until that abortion is rebuilt. Even a standard existing type double scisor switch terminal will not SLOW the line down.
Nonetheless, MY PLAN (attached below again) would work for any new terminal to be built, and would provide for maximal turnaround times even if the north end problems are improved very greatly.
You should make a copy of this and bring it to the transit authority for incorporation into their plans.
: ) Elias
There is only one terminal available at the south. It's the bottleneck. Let's not narrow it further.
Extend the existing platform about 200 feet back, so the entire train is at a platform. Add staircases and elevators to the extended platform.
Problem solved, with no negative impacts on service anywhere else. But it doesn't feed the edifice complex.
You are going, aren't you? Come on, man, step up to the plate and be counted!
I have alreadyy written the TA for the record and asked them to address the terminal capacity issue raised by the plan to abandon revenue use of the loop.
Ah... so we *are* ready to discuss this again!
Those terminals are not usable, and trying to use them as terminals will slow the whole line down even more. The major problem here is new rules that require the train to be "fumigated" before it can go out of service, or into the pocket to be turned about. That is a bunch of goons with rubber trungeons must board the train and beat all of the geese out of it before it can be relayed at either 137th Street or at Dyckman Street. This causes a LONG delay, and causes local train to back up behind this one before it can go into the pocket.
Now it just so happens that I *do* have a plan for fixing 137th street, making that into a loop, so that the worst that can happen to a sleepy goose is that he or she gets to ride around in circles between 137th Street and the Fairy until Mother Goose comes out to look for them.
But the plan I have drawn is the fastest possible way to cycle a stub termianl.
Elias
In the meantime, with only one north terminal in use, there are headways as low as 3 minutes in the morning rush and 3 minutes in the afternoon rush. That implies that both current terminals can handle 20 tph. If NYCT's proposed South Ferry terminal cannot handle 20 tph (a distinct possibility, given that many terminals of similar design can only handle 15 or so), the 1/9 won't even be able to keep its current headways, let alone improve on them should ridership increase.
I ask again: what's wrong with extending the platform at the existing station? Too simple?
The simplest way to solve this problem is by fiat:
If a train is merely going into a pocket to reverse and is coming back out immediately for revenue service, dont bother to get the passengers off. If theyre too stupid to work out that they have reached the end of the line, the train going in the other direction will generally help, and all they have to do is get off on the platform in the other direction.
There! That was simple, wasnt it?
I have yet to hear a coherent argument against this change.
: )
Fumigation is required because NYCT management considers it unsafe for a T/O to walk through a train while changing directions if the train is not at a station. That problem might be addressed by having a second T/O on the platform at the terminal station, to handle the direction change while the train is in the relay, thereby allowing both T/O's to remain locked in their cabs.
Somebody should attend the hearing and ask
(a) whether they have done a cost/benefit analysis,
(b) whether the fiat solution has been considered,
(c) whether the single long platform has been considered,
(d) what makes them think they can run more trains.
Whoever said "edifice complex" hit the nail on the head. And they cannot bear the thought that the trains don't fit the station.
Not in two minutes, it won't!
The 242 street terminal is a disaster. Just making that into a normal crossover and terminal will help. There is plenty of room up there you could even build a loop!
I am not so certain that an extended loop is enough at SF. My design will work. If MORE capacity is needed, a four track terminal may be built, or I can turn my extravagant imagination loose and see what other fantastic ideas can be designed.
Elias
Enough for what?
A 6000 passenger ferry boat, of course.
I'm just tossing out ideas...
One problem is, nobody wants to walk back far enough but wants to get into the first door that they get to.
Even with a long, fat platform, it needs to have access ramps from the boat that arrive in different parts of the platform.
Signs coming off of the boat could point people to the:
| FRONT OF THE TRIAN | MIDDLE OF THE TRAIN | REAR OF THE TRAIN |
Naturally in this scenerio, the rear of the train would be closest to the boat, but people could then choose what ramp to walk on according to where they wanted to be on the train based on the convenience at their destination.
Ramps to the front and middle of the train would have moving walkways (running in the rush direction) to encourage the use of the more distal cars on the train.
It will take a real good terminal to answer all of these issues, and I do not know that they are up to it.
Of course the next bet thing is to extend the line, and make a new loop at Tottenville.
: ) Elias
The only existing entrance is at the front of the platform. Extend the platform and there's be additional entrances at the middle and back.
South Ferry isn't a very busy station. There are numerous busier stations on the line, including my own dinky little local home station, with only one exit from the northbound platform, about a carlength from the south end of the platform. It gets messy, especially in the afternoon rush, but we live.
The same problems exist, and are much more worse, at Times Square. No point in solving them at South Ferry if you're not going to touch Times Square.
As I suggested in an earlier post, there is a fairly easy way to solve this problem. It's a modern adaptation of a technique used on the Paris Metro for 70 years. Don't permit passengers from entering a platform, while there is a train in the station. Paris used gates either manually or automatically controlled. My suggestion was to disable the turnstiles, while a train was platforming.
If that number is large enough, this could work.
A creative solution on your part. Will you take it to the public hearing? If not, perhaps another Subtalker could present it on your behalf.
I like what you posted.
What public hearing?
MTA has posted information about the meeting. It is as follows:
Project News
A Public Information Meeting to present proposals for the reconstruction of the South Ferry Subway Terminal will be held on Wednesday, December 3, 2003, starting at 5 p.m.
Meeting Location
126 Stuyvesant Place
Jury Room
Staten Island, New York
A "public hearing" has stenographers and a public record. It is a review process. The MTA has to reply publicly to any objections that might be raised in a public hearing.
A "public information meeting" is a nebulous term with no legal meaning.
Did the MTA sucker you in? Do you believe the brochures that drug salesmen leave with you?
In this context it means very little. Both are opportunities to interact with MTA officials and the event I posted is an opportunity for you to do so. The fact that a stenographer is or isn't there isn't as important as the fact that YOU are there, and can follow up in writing to them.
"Did the MTA sucker you in?"
There is nothing to be suckered into. Whether or not you like the plan, you can present your own proposal there. If it is intelligent, it need not be mutually exclusive with what they want to do.
I would not be surprised if you chose to merely continue whining about the MTA on Subtalk. I maintain that, if you do not show up at the hearing, or at least submit your input another way, then it is you who have been suckered in by whatever paranoia possesses you. You will be the ultimate sucker.
Come on, man, don't disappoint me. Nobody at the hearing will make fun of you. Just do it.
But you can
I believe that the FTA will get copies of the public comments, and the MTA will probably have to address serious issued raised.
So true, after I had me 3 minutes of fame speaking on the podium, none of it applying to the South Ferry project.
I think you may be a victim TA thinkspeak. There is no public hearing.
At Oxford Circus station on the London tube, they would close the gates when the platforms got too crowded; sometimes they stopped the down escalators too, and they would limit the number of people entering the station by closing station entrances.
Such measures would be perfectly reasonable when handling a whole boatload of people, and they wouldn't cost $400 million.
Nobody in the TA is interested in trying to avoid spending $400 million of somebody else's money. They're also not that concerned in whether the result of that expenditure will actually improve service. They wouldn't be disappointed if it did improve service but that would be a happy coincidence. :-)
This would have to be done at the top of the stairs/escalator, not the bottom. It is highly dangerous to have an unsurmountable obstacle at the bottom of a stairway or escalator. At a rock concert at CCNY a dozen years ago a few people got crushed to death that way.
The trouble is, if you put the closure at the top, it's not very accurate, since different people take different lengths of time to get to the bottom.
I believe (based on very limited observation) that Paris does it in relatively lightly used stations only, and at the end of a horizontal passageway only, not at the bottom of stairs.
Conceptually, I like what Stephen has suggested. MTA should hear it. There might be a way to implement it in some form, but even if not, it's worthy of discussion.
Maybe you can persuade Stephen to get over to the meeting and talk.
The portillons were not functioning during my last visit in 1987. However, they were certainly functioning during my visits in the 1960's and early 1970's. Then again they've also abandoned first class coaches.
They were used at all stations and most definitely during les heures d'affluence. Many were located at the bottom of stairways. Others, mostly the older manually operated ones, were located at the top of stairways. The portillons automatiques were invariably located at the platform threshold. The Paris Metro stations were designed to completely segregate entering and exiting passengers which prevents a lot of trampling encounters.
IIRC, the original IRT stations were arranged the same way, though I'm struggling to remember the source of that information.
Do you se that LONG LONG track that has to be used for a cross-over.
THAT is the problem. Chop that sucker up and make a regular X-over and you increase the capcity of the station.
Can't make a loop? What about extending the line beyond 242nd street.
Let half the trains terminate at 242nd Street and the other half terminate at 258 street or something. Broadway is well suited for an extension along side of the park, and sill get plenty of light down to the street.
Or just have alternate trains terminate at 238th Street. Put a relief crew on the 238th Street Platform, Pull it into the center track and right back out again southbound, and there you have it.
Make 238th Street the (9) train terminal and 242nd the (1) train terminal, and people will get used to it after a while.
Elias
You're other suggestions are good, except extending the line. I live in the area. They could never extend up along VC park.
I have heard arguments that an extension is not possible because the trains already a crush-loaded with people soon after they head into Manhattan.
As to simply extending the line per se, a new underground extension would help a lot of people - if you could address the sardine can problem further down the line.
That argument would only work if the line were running at capacity.
The only reason all trains run through is to avoid having to turn in the middle of the line. If alternate trains turned at 137th, the upper portion of the line would still be more than adequately served -- as I've said before, the four local 1/9-only stations between 42nd and 96th have, combined, more traffic than the entire line north of 137th. Until 1989, in fact, alternate rush hour and midday trains were turned at 137th; the practice was eliminated for operational reasons only.
But if the operational problems can be solved (and I agree that they can), there's no reason not to return to the earlier service pattern. Compared to the current skip-stop service, only five stations would lose service, and those five stations can afford to lose it. (Or turn at Dyckman, if it's easier there, and only two stations would lose service.)
In any case, the point is moot if the new south terminal can only handle 15 tph, since the line already sees up to 20 tph.
BTW: Have you noticed the bus lines on the poster?
VC Madman
What have YOU done that is so special?
R32 3510: http://www.bwayjcteny.com/Vdo00004.avi
R32 3510: the lighting is FUCKED UP
R32 3510: but you can see it
Don't the rollsigns on the R68 scroll vertically?
Here's a pic demonstrating this:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12788
Notice how the bottom part of the N is cut off.
Also this one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12783
The circle on that one is right at the bottom edge of the window.
And in this one
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12789
the bullet is practically centered.
And, of course, there's the famous
http://photos.transitgallery.com/transit_pictures_05/aar
It just makes sense that when the rollsigns are replaced (this last one is the original version), they'd replace the actual rollsign, and not the rollsign's housing.
And there can't be a blue W because the list I have makes no refrence to one!
Don't the rollsigns on the R68 scroll vertically?
Here's a pic demonstrating this:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12788
Notice how the bottom part of the N is cut off.
Also this one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12783
The circle on that one is right at the bottom edge of the window.
And in this one
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12789
the bullet is practically centered.
And, of course, there's the famous
http://photos.transitgallery.com/transit_pictures_05/aar
It just makes sense that when the rollsigns are replaced (this last one is the original version), they'd replace the actual rollsign, and not the rollsign's housing.
And there can't be a blue W because the list I have makes no refrence to one!
VC Madman
* = I'll call it HBLR if and when it goes to Bergen County. Not before.
You just need to find another meaning for the "B" in the meantime, like "Hudson Bayonne Light Rail."
Fans (and non-fans) of the NYW&B called it the "New York, Westchester, and Back."
Heh heh, that's pretty good.
Of course, around 1937 or so, it could've stood for "New York, Westchester & Bankrupt."
Jackpot. The Bayonne is going to make a lot of money off this as the fare inspectors are no longer doing their job. Seriously. I'm luckly if I get stopped once every two weeks by the fare inspectors.
>>>>>>2. Crime hasn't really been a serious problem on the HHLR,* at least as far as I know.<<<<<
Just the opposite. Crime is growing along the LightRail route and everyone knows this. The Jersey Jorunal and Bayonne Jorunal report crime events almost every month along the light rail. A neighbor of mine recently stated his son was mugged at the West Side Avenue statino.
Just the opposite. Crime is growing along the LightRail route and everyone knows this. The Jersey Jorunal and Bayonne Jorunal report crime events almost every month along the light rail. A neighbor of mine recently stated his son was mugged at the West Side Avenue statino.
So the question is, is the presence of the light rail attracting crime? If so, why? Also if so, would this tend to validate NIMBY arguments that transit brings crime?
No, and no.
Light rail brings people. Lots of people. It reduces the risk of crime overall in the area; however, because the risk of crime on light rail is not zero there will be some crime.
Your risk of being a victim of crime in that area probably fell because of the improvement in business and property values and jobs and pedestrian traffic. However, a percentage of existing crime now comes from a few bad guys who ride light rail.
Conclusion:
Rail reduces crime, but police must now patrol light rail as well as the community because the possible source of the crime that remains has expanded.
Ah, then we'll have to call Flushing Avenue in Queens "Maspeth Avenue." Wait, that's taken...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not yet. The line is too new for people to have discovered how to ride for free.
In the Baynone Municipal Court?
There's very little security along the route. NJ Tranist basically has secruity 24/7 along these stations.
1. Danforth Avenue - Rough neighborhood. I grew up not far from there and last Christmas, saw a trail of blood exiting out from the station. I told security that someone had been stabbed the night before and he did not look surprised
2. Martin Lurther King Drive - Another rough neighborhood. I was nearly mugged there a couple of years ago. The station office opened his car window and basically told the men that surrounded me "NOT TODAY"! He saved my life.
3. Liberty State Park - Another rough neighborhood. Lots of middle class folks in cars park there an take the Lightrail to work or the mall. That station always has the most police and security presence.
Jersey City has particularly nervy criminals. On my block not far from the Dairy Queen the street lights have been repeatedly vandalized. Public Service repair people were offered bribes not to fix them. When that failed fires were set in the street light bases.
My corner is also supposed to get a TV camera.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the African-American officers are called "sellouts" or "Uncle Tom" by the gang-members.
Umm, there's a problem with this logic. Not all minorities are African-American!!!! What about Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis, Turks, Native Americans, etc. Don't they also have a right to become cops as well????!:?
By the way, in case you're curious- the whole thing took place within Jersey City. The agressive kid and his buddies were African-American. The chain wearer and his friends were Latino. The woman who intervened was Asian. The train operator was African American. I'm white. The time was about 5:00PM and the ground temperature was 63 degrees. :-D
How did I know this would happen. POP is not for NJ or other war-zone-like urban areas; it’s for more peaceful places. Getting the police involved, most likely on overtime, means that the system is not working and that it will cost more money in the long run. Give this system over to NJ Transit Rail Operations and put actual conductors—full-time to boot—on the LRVs.
put actual conductorsfull-time to booton the LRVs.
And this wont cost money?
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
The shell of the Hog Island car is one of the most tragic cases.
Destroyed by arson while in storage at Penn's Landing.
Hopefully, since most of the equipment passed to the Electric City group, maybe all will we moved to Scranton and restored.
Their Johnstown car, 352, was readuced to a twisted shell. Unless you knew what it was, you could not tell.
: (
Mark
Of course, SEPTA's execs are praying Girard is a failure. Their biggest fear is that if it succeeds the city will force them to do it to Erie. This they do not want, as they all have the NCL virus.
Looking back to 1956, PTC (NCL controlled) actually considered building a giant bus-streetcar transfer station at the Woodland portal and only run the cars in the subway. Where the equipment would have been stored/maintained wasn't considered. The proposal never went beyond the early planning stage.
Erie Avenue is the 56, right?
What does NCL stand for?
SEPTA's just trying to be cheap...
Chuck Greene
AFAIK, the only PCCs hulks on SEPTA property are at Germantown, Midvale (where the PCC II shells were taken from IIRC), and the historic fleet split between Elmwood and Woodland. Course Elmwood currently has the PCC IIs, and they will eventually move up to Callowhill, along with some K-cars for the 10 service, but that's probably 3-6 months away at the minimum.
Are there still some PCC shells in south philly rotting away?
Yes. There are six of them there. And they're rumored to be for sale, so break out your checkbook if you'd like one.
Frank Hicks
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HOW TO ELIMINATE EVERY LAST DISGRACEFUL VANDAL FROM THE WORLD'S BUSIEST SUBWAY SYSTEM
Precaution: If you don't want to do this, then that's okay. I can't do it either because I'm only an 11-year old.
Step 1) Call the TA police and ask them if it's permitted. If they say yes, proceed. If not, don't.
Step 2) Arm yourself with anything you may need (NO GUNS) to hold the vandal in your grasp.
Step 3) Exit your house and enter your nearest subway station.
Step 4) Now that you're there, call up a willing railfan you know who lives on your same line (i.e. If say, like "X" lives close to the (4) line, and if so does "RonInBayside", they can make arrangements [telling each other the car numbers and which direction the train is going]).
Step 5) If the plan is successful, there should turn out to be a total of at least one railfan per car (you've got to know about facial appearances to tell who is who and who is where on the train).
Step 6) If you find someone doing any scratchiti, graffiti, or dentiti, restrain him/her and turn 'em in to the TA police at the last stop on the train.
Step 7) The TA's gotta do their stuff. Lock 'em up and wash all vandalized cars and replace the windows on all [scratchiti] vandalized cars. They've also gotta replace dented areas.
LET'S KILL THE DISGRACEFUL VANDALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, this is juvenile. How many people here actually confront people who engage in selfish and thoughtless behaviour?
I do. In fact, just today I yelled at a bunch of (perhaps) 12 year olds who were throwing a metal bat against the wood on top of one of the Prospect Park arches. I told them that what they were doing was selfish, and that if I heard it again I'd grab one by the neck and look for a cop.
It doesn't take much to make people change their ways. Just telling people that they are hurting other people, and that it will not be ignored, is usually enough.
I say, if you have two or more people who are really strong do this:
hog-tie 'em, pick 'em up, and throw em on the sidewalk. :)
Realistically, they should quantify the damage. Now obviously there is the cost of the window or etc. But when you deface a train or bus, it's also creating a VERY poor image. It's a negative value on marketing. The vehicle itself is a marketing tool I think. Once this is clarified, you send em to claims court and bill them. Professionally. The type where if you dont' pay, you get debt collectors on you. If the person is underage, then naturally you have to bill the poor parents, which is a shame, but you can't enter into a contract with people under 18 for payment.
Or my version of the chain gang for you guys. Have them spend a day cleaning a station top to bottom, or empty train. Free labor. Help with the marketing image of the system. :)
And of course enforcement. You don't do things wrong when you know you'll get caught.
I'm 15 but yet I'm told I have the maturity of a 9 year old. (Sometimes I don't blame them).
Uncle Tom.
You're thinking about the R44's.
The R44's took nearly 20 years until they were in full service.
They were replaced by conventional trucks. Other than that Pullman's design was quite successful.
Yeah, but the whole interesting thing about the Triplexes was that they were Triplexes.
David
David
In actuality, the Triplex sections could be separated without much difficulty.
Remember, at the articulation joints you have to support the car end after the other unit is removed, which requires a shop truck specially fitted to properly support the unit.
No shop truck - the car end sits on jacks, taking the track OOS.
BA-NA-NA!!
2.) Yes, I've seen people as youung as 12 on the trip without a parent. As long as you aren't off the wall.
That's not true. Half the people that go on these trips are so off the wall that they would have to commute just to get back TO the wall.
You'll have no problem with your age and getting on board.
This Is What I Live For...
Get a cheap name tag thingy and tie a big shoelace around it so you can wear it over your jacket. That's my plan, anyway.
See you on the trip!
Chuck Greene
TransitChuckG
Manhattan bound 5 train
as well as
Manhattan bound 5 local train
on the updated R142A 6 trains- Manhattan bound 6 train becoming Manhattan bound 6 express train at Parkchester, with the front bullet changing accordingly
At the next to last stop have the announcements on the ultra updated 5 trains change from "Eastchester bound 5 express train" to "Eastchester bound 5 train"
These changes to the R142 and R142A software were done be someone who was very bored and not thinking at all. They are either pointless, or on the <6> very counterproductive, as someone who only listens to the announcements at their stop above parkchester will likely think that it is a 6 local and if they are planning to get off at a local station will not be able to.
Someone needs to fix this, and if there is a point behind these seemingly asinine changes, post your reasoning as to why these these changes have a point.
Also the <5> trains are always(unless something has changed) BRONX EXPRESS, even when making local stops. This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train the next stop is Simpson Street. So much for updated trains, unless this is more C/R laziness, or lack of training.
Wait, do they send trains there anti-peak too (ie into 238th AM and out of it PM)
Has there ever been an accident so severe on an elevated line that the Elevated structure itself just came falling down? Not the whole thing of course, but just a section. Just wondering...Thanks
This IS What I Live For...
Does anybody know where that picture is?
Elias
The el train's operator should have realized he had the wrong line-up also, don't you think?
I think there was also a collision and fire on the 3rd Ave Bowery line when it was still a two single track structure.
A few times, I'd kick off my headlights if I was on the inbound track in a terminal and I had another train coming at me about to cross over before I left, and would kick off the headlights and forget to turn them back on - the darkness being the quick clue. For someone as inexperienced as Luciano, I could see forgetting that you had to turn them on and not noting their absence glowing overhead ...
But if you have your headlights lit on the INCOMING rails because YOU'RE ready to go, you're blinding your bro or sis coming IN trying to figure out the iron and homeball on approach. You just DOUSE in respect so your "oncomer" can find their way home. It's just what you do.
But unlike Luciano, you turn them ON once they've cleared the interlock and are no longer blinded by YOUR light. Markers too back then. Another of those "do things right" rituals of NYCTA that had me busting YOUR chops at Branford. TA had a lot of strange rituals, but they were there for your fellow TWU members' convenience in just "getting it done." :)
Actually, if it is the same picture, the funniest part about it is seeing the three people there. Two are sort of casually posed in the street as if this sort of thing happened every day, while the third is looking out of a second-story window--but in the opposite direction.
Then there was a similar situation on the #2line at the entirance to 239th Street Yard within the last decade.
A truck hit a pillar and nearly took down the Myrtle Ave El about a week before it was scheduled to close. The structure had to be supported by timbers for its last week.
Within the last year a truck didn't believe the low clearance sign and took out the Astoria Blvd station mezzanine.
There have been a number of incidents of trains or parts of trains falling to the street, and a number of collisions--I can think offhand of the 5th Avenue L wreck on Flatbush Avenue, the split switch at the junction of the 6th and 9th els at 53rd, a derailment and train falling to the street at the Chestnut Street cutoff on the J Line. There were others.
But as far as I know there hasn't been one in New York that caused significant damage to the structure.
Paul, what happened? I never heard of this one.
I don't have any information on injuries/fatalities but, although I don't have it in my notes here, I recall that a lady on #7 was supposed to have held on to a strap all the way down, which allegedly saved her from serious injury. The company generously let her take the strap as a souvenir.
Colorful story.
--Mark
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks for reminding me. The great molasses flood was still the subject of quite a bit of folklore, when I lived there in the early 1960's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My aunt, who is retired from PSU, has told me that when she arrived in the 1950s, there was train service to State College. I dont know the hows and whys, but I have seen converted train stations in Lemont, and there is an active freight line in Bellevue.
If a company would service just during college holidays only and take me to 30th street, that'd be great. Take one of the regional rail a few blocks from where "home" was at that point. Wow that would've been great. Instead of being dropped off in King of Prussia. Too many suburbian kids around I guess.
I wonder how much it costs to lease/run a train, get up a business plan.
State College must be about 10 times the size it was when I first visited in 1983.
I also remember, since it was the first time I really left the city, walking one day randomly to see how far I could go, and on top of this one hilly street, it was like the end of the universe. There was a line where nothing was built after it for infinity. :) There's some new apartment buildings(the homogenous kind that you can live in PA, FL, or AZ and not know the difference) to the north and south, but I doubt it will get too bad around there. Even though the apartments are nicer than downtown, most of us didn't want to live that far from campus.
But at least now we can shave 30 seconds of our travel time(unless you were on my thanksgiving bus, which was stop and go the whole way).
Metroliner
Capitoliner
So what were the other differences between the Metros and Caps? I'm assuming there was a different interior layout?
Part of me thinks that Amtrak should have continued to use MU-type trains along the NEC, but that's just me.
The engine is AEM-7 2304 and it is running all the way to Harrisburg (STATE) where it will probably head back sometime tomorrow as another Keystone train.
Sean@temple
About 1960. Before then the switches for the express were west of the station. When the switches were moved east of the station (current position) initially the J express trains continued to skip the station, but the M expresses made the stop before switching to the express track. Later the J expresses also stopped and Marcy effectively became an express station.
Reason? The most immediate reason was to eliminate the switches west of the station. Though I don't know of any particular incident (like a derailment) it was a nasty switch, especially eastbound. Trains came off the bridge, turned sharply left, then sharply left onto the express track, then back to the right again. It was taken sloooooowly.
Secondarily, they then eventually had all trains stop, as the first stop in Brooklyn.
It was probably more of the first thing you mentioned. The borough a station is in should have nothing to do with what trains stop there. 155th and 161st on the B/D are both the first stops in their respective boroughs, but they are both local only.
And thirdly, I would assume they also wanted the station to be an express station as the Williamsburg Bridge Plaza is also a bus terminal for many lines also.
I thought of that, but I kind of doubt it. Most people arriving by bus and Bridge Plaza took the free transfer to B39, which ran almost continuously, over the Bridge. On the Manhattan side it was an easier transfer to the subway than the trek to/from Marcy, if they were going further than the LES.
Link here
Roller skates.
NO TAXIs brah.
Have BAGGAGE in-hand and ride in the vestibule area!!! :D
No, it is an impossible connection, because even if it were possible, your arriving train (AMTK I presume) will be anywhere from 15 to 360 minutes late.
Oh yeah, wait a minute, AMTK doesn't even go to GCT any more.
Well, it stil ain't possible, so fergetaboutit.
Elias
If you factor in any delay at all -- too far back by one car on MNRR, just miss a shuttle (don't take the 7), don't make it to the front half of the 1/2/3, 1/2/3 doesn't come almost immediately -- you've missed it.
I say go for it, there's nothing like a little challenge to make your day.
CG
Simply running from GCT to Penn would probably work, as long as you choose the right streets.
On foot, it's a bit possible, although stressful. On a similar note, I have made it from 23rd/3rd to Penn Station in 15 minutes years back when I used to do that occasionally. I would run up to 24th St, run like hell to Broadway, shoot up to 31st Street, and then run to Penn, and have caught trains in that manner....of course I was 10 years younger then.....
Why???
Jimbo
37th westbound is such a street.
Arti
15 minutes on a Sunday? As Frank Costanza once said, "It's a million-to-one shot!"
If you're familiar with GCT then you'll know which side to sprint (I say SPRINT)
towards for the ( S ) and then to the 1/2/3 side of things for 1 stop...
I think it's doable... U may just need to SPRINT like that time you ran in the NYC marathon....
......or like the time you DREAMT you ran in the NYC marathon...
I'll wager 2 bits that it's doable, brah.
On what planet? It takes longer than that just to get from GCT to the shuttle plaform! And do you think on a Sunday afternoon you can just stroll to the subway station and a train will just magically leave just as you enter it? Then comes the transfer from the shuttle to the 1,2,3 at Times Square where you have to dodge hundreds of tourists watching some musicians or break dancers in the hall, and then figure out where you are going, and then if you are lucky enough again that the 1,2,3 just magically pulls in and leaves as you enter. Eveni if you plan you dorrways perfectly at Times Square, and you know exactly where you are going, I severely doubt you will be able to enter and leave the Times Square complex in under 5 minutes, add that to the minimum 5 minutes at GCT to get from MN to the shuttle, and the minutes of time on both trains, forgetting that you have to actually wait for the trains to leave the stations, there is no way it'll take you 5 minutes from GC to Penn. And then when you get to Penn, you have to know exactly which track you are going to. Ain't going to happen in 15, let alone 5 minutes.
It's the walks and the waits that will kill him. If he knows exactly where to go and he catches both trains just on time, he'll make it.
Attn: George Warrington:
Executive Director
As a daily Hudson Bergen Light Rail user, Im concerned by the lack of fare inspection on the system. Its been weeks since Ive been verified for fare payment and rarely do I see inspectors entering the cars anymore. These are my observations:
1. Fare Inspectors are just standing on platforms talking, sitting or simply counting passengers entering or leaving the system.
2. Fare Inspectors are NOT giving tickets for the following violations.
a. Non-Validated Tickets - Many fare evaders will carry an unvalided ticket in their pockets for several days. When a fare inspector questions them as to why they didnt validate their ticket before entering the car, the evader will state The machine wasnt working or I forgot about it. Furthermore, they will NEVER issue a fine on an unvalidated ticket and will often validate the ticket for the fare evader! As a result, a fare evader will only need to purchase maybe two or three tickets a month since the only time he needs to validate the ticket is when confronted by the inspectors.
This policy of pardoning unvalidated ticket holders must stop as it is robbing the system of thousands of dollars.
b. Expired Tickets - Too many passengers are carrying expired tickets and simply given a verbal warning not to do it again. I've never seen anyone given a ticket for this offence.
Several months ago, I would get checked every two or three times a week but now, Im lucky if I get checked once every two weeks. It seems like the fare inspectors are either:
a. Tired of their jobs.
b. Told to stop enforcing the rules and give passengers A break for the holiday season.
Yesterday, I noticed two police officers enter the light rail and make two arrests within minutes of entering. I cant remember the last time a fare inspector issued a fine on a fare evader. I think its time NJ Transit replace these low paid fare inspector with Bayonne Police officers whom will enforce the rules
I think from an employees viewpoint, if your not givin the proper tools for enforcement or penalties, and possibly incentives, we get tired and bored form whatever the job is. Do they have ticket giving authority for fare evaders?
The fare inspectors do have ticket giving authority for fare evaders. There are no longer enforcing the rules.
I am amazed and heartened by the increase in Subtalkers who take real action on the transit issues they care about.
They have plenty of fare inspectors. I counted 8 employed at one time but they are now being sent to work in other areas. Furthermore, the inspectors that are working on the HBLR no longer issues fines for unvalidated tickets.
Two police officers within minutes last week fined two passengers. Evertime a patrol officer enters the cars, he always seems to catch at least on fare evader. Unfortunately, a police officer probably costs about 40.00 dollars an hour compared with a regular NJT fare inspector who makes about $12.00.
Suffolk and Nassau counties police salaries
I worked in a supermarket in 1985 and the going rate of police officers in the private sector. I suspect the rate must be much higher if not double the going rate 20 years ago.
I worked at a supermarket in 1985 and the going rate of a Jersey City police officer in the private sector was $20.00 dollars an hour. I suspect this rate must have doubled in the last twenty years.
Nassau County Police routinely make that much. And that's a patrol officer who might be just riding a desk on "light duty."
However I have to add, I rode HBLR to 22d Street Thurs nite, there were inspectors on the northbound trip and they DID write at least one summonses.
Well that's good to hear. I use the 22nd street station every day and have yet to see one summons issued. Seriously. It's a tremendous problem and I don't want to see the HBLR go to turnstyles. According to an article I read, there has been a dropoff of passengers by several thousand. I don't know if this is due to
a. crime
b. fare evation
c. both
The situation has changed over the past year. For some unknown reason, NJ Transit moved the fare inspectors to another line. The good news is the Bayonne Police are now doing the inspection properly.
On my last trip on HBLR, last Sunday, a fare inspector approached two teenage girls with unvalidated tickets. At Exchange Place, they ran out of the car, validated their tickets, and ran back into the car before the doors closed. They received no tickets or any reprimand for not having their validated tickets. Once the inspectors left, the one girl told the other girl, "they're not real cops, they can't do anything to you".
HBLRT people do not work for NJ Transit, but 21st Century Rail. NJ Transit cannot replace their personnel, only replace the contract operator of the service – but with DBOM consortia, I suspect that things must run much deeper than that, since 21CR also built and is still building the system.
Writing Warrington will serve no purpose but to get you a form letter thanking you for your views and assessments, and then getting filed under G…
Nicely done. More info is available on the museum's web site.
It looks really cool, with the video projection that makes it like you're actually riding on the train.
That would be 1995.
Bill "Newkirk"
One old el view from a highway that I distinctly remember and was an impressive view was the Gun Hill Rd exit of the Bronx River Pkway with the Third Avenue El above it.