HOPE THIS HELPS
JONN
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE THIRD RAIL
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE THIRD RAIL
THE QUICK BROWN FOX FORGOT TO CHECK FOR A TRAIN
I think Arial wins...
Ha! Now read this!
CG
C P C F CN N DAMN E DE MAG SUO. IN ELFE TIB COR P F C N COR.
YOUR POINT ABOUT GRAMMAR AND PUNCTUATION IS, I'M SURE, PART OF THE ISSUE. PERHAPS SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO POST IN ALL CAPS DO SO BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE TO SLOW DOWN ENOUGH TO TYPE IN MIXED CASE. IT WOULD LOGICALLY FOLLOW THAT THEY MIGHT ALSO LACK THE PATIENCE TO USE REASONABLY CORRECT GRAMMAR SPELLING AND PUNCTUATION.
I have no idea why it is so difficult to read posts that are made in all caps, but to my eyes it just is. Perhaps someone much more knowledgeable in the mechanics of the eye and brain can comment on the subject for us but it's well beyond anything I understand.
Your point about grammar and punctuation is, I'm sure, part of the issue. Perhaps some of the people who post in all caps do so because they don't have the patience to slow down enough to type in mixed case. It would logically follow that they might also lack the patience to use reasonably correct grammar spelling and punctuation.
CG (cg)
BTW, at certain Libraries in NY City, especially Science & Business on Madison, it's common to find Text Size in catalogue computer terminals has been enlarged by a previous patron. I've done it myself.
No he cannot, as it does not change the size of the textarea. Check it yourself.
Most current signs, including the ones on the recently retired R-33's, refer to plain old Woodlawn (or, in the case of the R-33's, "Woodlwn") rather than Woodlawn Road.
Some examples (old names in parentheses):
#7 Line:
33rd St. (Rawson St.)
40th St. (Lowery St.)
46th St. (Bliss St.)
The above names are being restored to the subway and street sign names soon!
52nd St. (Lincoln Ave.)
69th St. (Fisk Ave.) - still name of interlocking located here
N and W Astoria Line:
39th St. (Washington Ave.)
36th St. (Beebe Ave.)
30th Ave. (Grand Ave.)
A Line to Lefferts:
80th St. (Hudson St.)
88th St. (Boyd Ave.)
104th St. (Oxford Ave.)
111th St. (Greenwood Ave.)
A Line to Far Rockaway:
Beach 67th St. (Gaston Ave.)
Beach 60th St. (Straiton Ave.)
Beach 44th St. (Frank Ave.)
I'm sure there are others.
I wonder how many people would have even known about the old system of named streets had it not been for NYCTA's policy of maintinaing this rich history on its station signs?
That's why we have
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/streetnecrology/necrologyhomepage/necro.html
Well I for one am glad there was such a policy. Numbered streets may make for easier navigation, but they lack any sense of character or history.
Anyone who has tried to maneuver Queens' so-called "grid" of Avenues, Roads, Streets, Places, Courts, Paths and whatever else they used to try to maintain some semblance of a grid should be able to report back that the "easier navigation" goal was not a smashing success in Queens.
CG
Then again, Boston has five Washington Streets and they don't seem to mind very much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ely-23rd St or 23rd-Ely St, etc
That may have made them drop some "Ave"s here and add "St" there, but at least many of the old names would still exist, and they still could have done the Queens numering system for addresses and streets to make it a bit easier to find things (which I stilll find confusing anyway). In the cases where there were overlaps (like five 5th St's, etc, well, those could have just been dropped.
Or have something added: Astoria 5 St, Jackson 5 St, etc. Brooklyn has 7 St, North 7 St, South 7 St, West 7 St, East 7 St, Bay 7 St, Brighton 7 St, and Paerdegat 7 St, and once upon a time mapped Bergen 7 St and Vandalia 7 St. There are TWO West 9 Streets.
Another reason to love Brooklyn. A sensible approach that keeps the flavor of each neighborhood. To those who know Brooklyn, every one of those 7th Sts. are easily distinguishable from each other. To wit, Park Slope, Nothside Williamsburg, Southside Williamsburg, Bensonhurst, Midwood/Gravesend, Bensonhurst, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay, Park Slope...just off the top of my head. But I missed Vandalia 7 St. though. Didn't want to cheat and look it up.
They could be renamed Corrupt Politician Blvd.
I didn't know that. It sounds like Atlanta where they have about 1,000 streets named Peachtree (I don't know if they all have different suffixes, though). It always amazes me that the locals seem to know exactly which one is being talked about when someone says "It's over on Peachtree".
CG
Beach 90th Street. (Holland Ave.)
N and W Astoria Line:
39th St. (Washington Ave.)
36th St. (Beebe Ave.)
Correct names, wrong order. 39th was Beebe, 36th was Washington.
39th Ave. (Beebe Ave.)
36th Ave. (Beebe Ave.)
The entire Astoria Line is above 31st Street. It doesn't cross 36th or 39th Street.
No I didn't. I never corrected the street type. :-)
Beach 98 St - Playland
Beach 105St - Seaside
Beach 36 St - Edgemere
Beach 25 St - Wavecrest
Bay Ridge Avenue is still called 69th Street in Brooklyn(there is the 69th Street Pier), and the DOT should double sign the street(similar thing with Bay Ridge Parkway 75th Street). 6th Avenue remained in public usage for many years after being called Avenue of the Americas.
The MTA still uses 238th Street on the 2/5 lines(and so do many locals, of course 238th Street is not a non existing street as it does officially exist in Woodlawn Heights). 238th Street is usually in parentheses and in some cases is even more popular than Nereid Avenue. Of course the redbirds only said E 238 Street, and the r-142s(the newer ones) have 238 St references(while the older ones just said Nereid).
The USAR Center has an address of 555 E 238th Street, even though it is actually on Nereid Avenue!
Several places on Bedford Park Boulevard have used 200th Street on the front of the store or as their "official" address in the phone book. The New York Botanical Gardens prefers 200th Street(of course they usually also use Southern Boulevard as well, which was also renamed) Many old street names(or numbers) are still recognized by the post office like most of E 177th Street, the upper parts of 7th Avenue(AC Powell Blvd)
Here are my observations based on today:
There were almost no Far Rock A trains. Lefferts A's ran local all the way. Far Rock A's ran local in Manhattan in both directions; I think they ran express in Brooklyn, but I don't know, since I didn't spot any there.
Also, SB A's ran via Rutgers, due to construction at Chambers. This wasn't posted online, but official service advisories were posted at the bypassed stations.
Does anyone here have the actual GO and the associated supplement schedules? What was happening here? What were the actual headways? Is this a test for a possible future weekend service pattern? Even though local service was much more frequent than usual, I don't like this weekend's arrangement one bit.
Anyway, that GO obviously isn't going to become permanent. I'm referring to the whole confusing bit about what's going local and what's going express.
Here's the advisory, BTW. And that isn't even what happened; the express platform at 34th Street was taped off, so nothing was running express in Manhattan in either direction. Also, it appeared that all trains ran through to 207th.
Those confused people could have taken the 2/3 one stop for the E, but I'll bet there were no signs explaining that option. If only the J ran through to Broad on weekends, the obvious detour would have been to take the J from Fulton to Essex and to catch the A there.
And why were there so many more Lefferts trains than Far Rock trains? I thought it was so as not to starve the local stations (although, if anything, the local stations were flooded with Lefferts service), but if Far Rock trains were running local too, then I don't get it.
This may have been a test for a new weekend service pattern. I hope not.
If we relabel this weekend's Lefferts A trains as C trains, then we end up with a 600-foot C train every 5-7 minutes, it seems, and an A train every 20 minutes or so, with A and C trains making local stops in Manhattan and A and C trains both running to 207th.
That's nothing like what anyone on SubTalk ever proposed!
If they'd run the A express in places where they weren't doing work, then they ALSO would have had to run Cs, resulting in still more trains cramming onto the local tracks in areas where they were working on the express tracks.
Besides, the A, C, and E have no trouble sharing the local track on weekends (nor do the A, C, and F).
Originally, all A service was to run local because C service was suspended for the weekend. The original G.O called for trains to run every six minutes. This looked fine on paper but in reality it was a nightmare. Severe congestion was created on the local tracks even though the E had been diverted to the 6th Avenue line; and it was hard to keep the trains spaced evenly.
The G.O. also called for there to be two Lefferts trains for every one Far Rockaway train. This also caused a problem because Far Rockaway trains often got lost in the shuffle. If two R32s/R38s were at 207th Street and both were signed to be Lefferts trains, someone had to go out and change signs on one of them if the next train was scheduled to go to Far Rockaway. Not an easy feat when you're running the line on a six minute headway. It was then decided that trains running to or from Far Rockaway would run express in Brooklyn in both directions and in the north direction (uptown) from Canal Street to 168th Street (there was a separate G.O. which required all southbound A trains to run from West 4th Street to Jay Street via the F line, so all southbound service was running local) while all trains to/from Lefferts Blvd. ran local from Euclid Avenue to 168th Street in both directions. For the first few hours, this plan clicked like clockwork. Congestion was eased on the local track, and the Far Rock trains were making it into 207 cutting back on the number of changeovers.
Then a new problem arose. Passengers at 34th street waiting on the express platform for an uptown train would see the A arrive on the local track. After changing sides, they would find the next A coming in on the express track. The uproar was so great that it was decided that all uptown trains would operate local between Canal Street and 59th Street. Once at 59th Street, trains would identify themselves to the tower. Far Rock trains would be sent up the express and Lefferts trains would continue up the local.
I think that covers everything. Any questions?
So what were the final headways?
Were Far Rock trains really running express NB north of 59th? That, IMO, is a recipe for another passenger nightmare: it's bad enough that some A's were express and others were local, but in this case a passenger would have no way to tell an express and a local apart. Besides, the reason for sending some A's express no longer exists north of 59th -- if anything, with D's on the express track, congestion would be minimized by sending all A's local.
Didn't he say Broadway Junction to Euclid Avenue?
I also saw an A train at Columbus Circle that announced 72nd Street as the next stop, although I didn't get on.
Haven't you learned by now not to believe announcements that easily? :)
My mistake.
There was no worry about congestion on the express track north of 59th Street. The D generally runs on a ten minute headway on weekends. With this G.O running with the A, Far Rockaway trains are roughly 12 minutes apart. Enough time for the D to enter and leave 59th Street before that Far Rock A appears on the local track.
I am of the opinion that any train scheduled to make all local stops between 168th and Euclid in both directions should be signed as C, regardless of whether it continues north of 168th or south of Euclid, since the local-express status is relevant to more passengers, terminals are signed more often and more accurately than the local-express status, and making a mistake in the local-express status often requires backtracking. I realize that some disagree. But in this case, with some trains running local and others running express, surely they should have been distinguished in letter!
What's the point of canceling all Cs if the local tracks were in use all the way from 168th to Euclid?
Of course, with extra A trains running on a six minute headway, it would have been as if the C were still running anyway so there probably wouldn't have been much of a difference.
Hey, don't forget about our M4 cars here in Philly. They don't have just a railfan seat, but a whole railfan gallery!
: )
Mark
Interesting. That means you are related (in a very convoluted way) to a former British Prime Minister.
Archibald Philip Primrose, the 5th Earl of Rosebery, was of course married to Hannah de Rothschild from 1878 until her death from Typhoid in 1890. Lord Rosebery went on to be Prime Minister from March 1894 to June 1895.
Lord Rosebery also:
- got expelled from Oxford University in 1869, as the University authorities weren't impressed at him buying a racehorse and entering it in the Derby (it finished last).
- won the Derby three times, twice while Prime Minister.
- was the first Chairman of London County Council.
- maintained that the only two people he feared were Queen Victoria and Count Otto von Bismarck.
- gave a park to the town of Epsom, Surrey (the Derby is of course held at Epsom Downs, so this isn't totally random!).
But I need your help. All I have is 4 X 6 shots and a Lexmark page scanner with absolutely no idea how to post them onto messages such as this. I know how to e-mail them, but don't know if the shots can be used from the e-mail to be posted in the pictures section. I see many people using thumbnails to save file size as well. How can I do that?
In short, I would be grateful for some instructions on how to post pictures, first as messages, and then with Daves okay, providing them to the site. Thanks!
The code to insert image is: <IMG SRC="address"> where address is the address of the photo
If you want to create a link instead of embedding use <A HREF="address>text</A> where text is the link test.
Finally if you want to use thumbnails you'll need to use an image editing program to make a smaller picture and then you combine the two methods above to have <A HREF="full-pic-address"><IMG SRC="thumbnail-address"></A>
Remember always to preview before posting
Thanks for the "short answer" to the question, but I know absolutely nothing about the mechanism behind these actions, and barely trust my ability to post here in plain text.
I don't have an address or website of my own to keep the photos online. Does this "hosting site" give instructions on how to scan the picture to it? If I go to www.hostingsite.com will it greet me with something along the lines of "Bounce your pictures off us! We'll show you how in X easy steps. Free Copyright Protection."
Does this cost money? If I scan it to that site, will it give me some sort of file number or unique address that I will insert into the HTML code you gave me to have it pictured here? Is it secure?
I don't mean to sound so naive, but I really am this technologically ignorant. Hell, I am afraid of posting my resume online even though I need a new job yesterday because mine has bullets and graphics. Even the 100% plain text version I created comes in like a mess in the posting window they provide and I am concerned that that is the way it will appear to prospective employers.
Hearing all this, is there any redemption for me, or should I just snail-mail the pictures to a friend of mine who knows what he is doing? Thanks again.
Your scanner should include the instructions on how to do that. The site will include instructions on how to transfer the picture files your scanning program creates to the web space.
Does this cost money?
It could, or it couldn't. There are free sites, but not all of them allow you to include the photos in webpages hosted elsewhere, meaning that you would have no choice but to link the photos, and not embed them. Some others won't even let you link right to the photo, you'll have to link to a page they create for each photo that includes the photo (so you'd be forced to look at their ad banners too). Since I have a paid host, I cannot help you to find the best free one.
If I scan it to that site, will it give me some sort of file number or unique address that I will insert into the HTML code you gave me to have it pictured here?
Yes. The address is the same one that appears in the ADDRESS line of your web browser. It would be something like http://www.hostingsite.com/username/imgfilename.jpg
Hearing all this, is there any redemption for me, or should I just snail-mail the pictures to a friend of mine who knows what he is doing? Thanks again.
There is redemption for you, snail mailing things should never be the solution.
As for your resume problem, here's one thing I suggest: Log into one of those job search sites as an employer (not an employee) and search other people's resume to see how they format it.
And the suggestion to log in as an employer tops it. Thanks once again!
I don't really know the coding method that well either. But I have picked up a few things along the way. Basically, Subtalk allows for HTML coding within the area where you post a message. All that means is by using certain characters before and after the actual message lines, you can cause words to appear bold or underlined or whatever. My knowledge was gained from going to the View menu at the top of the page and selecting Source. A text file of the page pops up with all the HTML coding visible. By seeing what effects or pictures are on the web page itself and viewing the Source text file of that page, you get to see, for example, the simple and exact codes to use for the posting of the graphic file. Hell, if you're really slick you can cut and paste the needed characters into your own message at the appropriate places.
Indeed, I wanted to show you some of the actual coding but I don't know how to type them in this space without making the codes do what they should! So the effects display on the message preview but not the coding itself. There has to be a way to "shut off" the coding results on screen but I haven't figured that one out yet.
This is a test
at the beginning of the word you want bold
at the end of the word you want bold.
Thanks. I'm a learnin' boss.
Ahhhhhh!!! I think I've got it, Ollie.
This is a test
<b>at the beginning of the word you want bold
</b>at the end of the word you want bold.
Thanks. I'm a learnin' boss.
I know this is going to take some work, and I am sure that once I get started things will fall into place. It's just that I needed to have the whole process mapped so I could get a grip on what had to be done.
Thanks.
Message # 556825
Peace,
ANDEE
I am printing out all this information so I can refer to it in the future.
Or, again, Image Magick works peachy if you want to script it.
Makes no mention of a image reducer thingie option...
Would be nice... I'll look for 1.
ImageMagick.com you say??
1869...The foundation is laid for the original Grand Central Depot at 42nd Street and Fourth Avenue.
1983...The ten-pack of tokens debuts in the subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
1969 Exact Fare required on all TA, MABSTOA, and private buses. Tokens accepted as well as coins. Fare was 20 cents!!!
1975 Base TA/MABSTOA fare goes to 50 cents, SI Ferry goes to 25 cents round trip, commuter rail increase average of 20%, TBTA tolls increase to 75 cents on Triboro, Throgs Neck, Whitestone, Midtown; to $1.00 on VN Bridge, to 50 cents on XBay, Marine Parkway, and H Hudson.
Add-A-Ride transfers introduced on all TA/MABSTOA buses to permit a second bus ride for 25 cents instead of no transfer. Existing free bus transfers continued. The Rockaway double fare on the A train was ended.
1897-the underground troley line opens in Boston, the the first subway in the Americas (Green Line)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hagstrom map
Is there a way to get longitude and lattitude for any place on earth? Does Global Positioning Satellites tell you that?
N Broadway Line
Stillwell Avenue is almost right at the 40 deg 34'30" mark, and very slightly south of Ocean Parkway (maybe).
So Stillwell Avenue is definitely closer to the Equator than B. 116 St.
#3 West End Jeff
What do you base this statement on?
Brighton Beach is at 40° 34' 38" N
Ocean Parkway is 40° 34' 34" N
West 8th Street is 40° 34' 33" N, making it the furthest south (not Ocean Parkway, I was incorrect about that)
Coney Island is at 40° 34' 36" N
All of these are the southernmost point in the station as shown by TopoZone.
Neptune Avenue is 40° 34' 44" N
CG
Far Rockaway: 40.6044°N, 73.7550°W
179th And Hillside: 40.7124°N, 73.7849°W
That is true, however the Queens/Nassau border does not go straight up and down. For example, where Union Turnpike hits the Nassau border, that location is much further east than where Far Rockaway meets Inwood. If you were to draw a line straight up from Inwood, Lawrence, or Cedarhurst, you would hit places like Glen Oaks and Little Neck, both sections of Queens.
Here is a list of city closings.
IMHO the R38's are suffering. I am actually convinced that some of the R38s have roofs that are patched together with brown ducktape and bondo.
Given the remaining ones on the 7, BONDO and duct tape can't save them from their watery graves. I've seen holes on the sides I could stick my finger in but dare not. The R42's come in a close second for me.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Guess I'm crazy but it's good to be able to walk down a city street, crossing over numerous multi-track subway lines to its riverside end and jump on a boat to another city street across a busy river. (The ferry itself paralleling a subway line going to the same place!) With its own delighful mechanical symphony of underground and overground rail lines, and teeming sidewalks fronting urban streetscapes. This dynamic fascinates me to no end. Makes me feel good to be alive.
Anyway, just a thought.
Aren't you forgetting about the R11's?
Regardless, that is a pretty amazing thing because, to me at least, the R-32s don't seem so "old".
--Mark
I've seen Kool-D post on this, and since I'm making plans to be there
myself, I don't wanna be the ONLY steel-maiden going.... so what's the plan, brahs?
For the unaware, Synopsis, Directions, Tickets & Information is all here.
If anybody wants to go for a ride on the new Atlantic Avenue L alignment beforehand, let me know and I'll try to arrange a plan. (Otherwise I'll just go on my own.)
If the R-42 set is still running this afternoon, I want to both photograph it and ride it. I need to be at Atlantic at about 3:30 to guarantee that I catch it (if it's running) and still make it to the movie on time. Anybody who's free that early is welcome to meet me there, but don't look for me at Fulton. Bring reading material.
Weekend GO's sometimes bump the 2 and 3 onto the local track, as do occasional (planned or unplanned) express track blockages. In principle, a long gap in 1/9 service might push a 2 or 3 to the local track, but I've never seen such a thing in practice.
I'm curious where you saw the 2 referred to as the 7th Avenue local.
What's much more likely is for 1/9's to make battery runs.
BTW, where can I pick up THE MAP? I saw someone on the train holding one yesterday and I could use one of those for the Subway.
R36WF #9712
How reliable is the AirTrain for getting to Newark Airport? What's the best way to connect to it? PATH? NJ Tranist? I'm leaving from East Midtown. My main concern is travel time. My other option is the bus which leaves from Grand Central every 20 min.
The AirTrain website is confusing hell so I was hoping for some help from the experts.
Thanks!
~W
--jon
Link?
--jon
PATH does not connect to the EWR AirTrain monorail. Its tracks end in Newark Penn, which necessitates a change to NJ Transit trains at that station, for a fare of well over $6 O-W on top of the PATH fare.
If you have the time, you can save money by riding the PATH to Newark Penn Station, then going downstairs and getting the 62 bus, which runs about every 20 minutes. Total O-W cost will come to a mere $2.65 or so.
PATH only goes to Newark's Penn Station, where you have to change to NJT.
There is a bus at Newark's Penn Station which goes to the airport every 10 minutes; look it up on the NJTransit webpage.
I am sure the EWR AirTrain is reliable; my question would be how reliable is New Jersey Transit from NYC? Actually, I've never been delayed on it, so I guess you can trust it. Taking PATH to Newark and the Bus (#9??) is the old-fashioned way but maybe the most practical way.
Not pracitical if you're in a hurry and it's rush hour. It's taken me an hour (including waiting for the bus to come in the first place) to get from Newark Penn to the airport in heavy traffic.
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/rail/current/r0070.pdf
Service from Penn to EWR runs about every 20 minutes or so during that time and takes 20-25 minutes. The Airtrain connection takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes from the train station to the terminals -- depending on which terminal you are using. (Terminal C -- the main Continental Airlines terminal is the closest, Terminal A is the farthest). You can buy a combined NJT rail and Airtrain ticket (around $11-12 either at an NJT ticket window or from a vending machine in Penn Station).
You'll have no problem at all getting to the airport in plenty of time for a 7:15 flight.
CG
Check the NJ Transit website to see how often trains run to Newark Airport (don't get off at Newark Penn!) , also Amtrak is alot more comfortable and quicker (in my experience). If you can spend the $20 or if your company would pick it up and the schedules are good I would take Amtrak to EWR.
When you get back post a trip report and tell us how it worked out, and yes the Airtrain Newark website is the worst.
Are you involved in some way with the book?
As much as I can be objective, I was really surprised at the contents. It's sort of like a large-format family album. There is at least one picture of every single one of the 100 PCC cars, most of which are in attractive and interesting locations. I enjoyed the text, too.
Anyway, I haven't seen it yet, and I am looking forward to it.
Seriously, saw him again on one of the June MOD trips. He's in Calif now, but gets home sick for a certain subway line from time to time.
He also knows a lot of history about the subway.
Would Fred approve of calling the #4 Sea Beach Line the "N" train? :)
Sure, in the baseball world, one team has the letter N in it (YaNkees) and the other doesn't (MUTTS!).
Kool2BQ as "Kool To Be Kill"
He can also spot rats as no one else can.:)
That's why I posted my Attention Sea Beach Fred message.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Isn't about time for you to be filling out "old folks home" applications?
Sea Beach Fred, if I may?
Ahhh Shadup You!
Thank you.
Well, you should know that that descriptive is well fitting to the Bensonhurst area neighborhoods. It is used by the local "youts" in their collective enclaves. I.E., some of the fellows might be known as being associated with, say, the 18th Avenue Boys, or the Avenue P Boys. Actually, the use of "boys" is a long held tradition in Brooklyn. It dates way back to the early history of Brooklyn and New York. When I first moved into Bensonhurst and heard the term used...I don't know. I knew somehow I was coming home to a place I'd never been before.
But I'm eccentric like that anyway. Just like our favorite train line.
Rail transit-related tidbits: In 1953, there were only cable cars and streetcars in San Francisco. BART was only being studied -- it wouldn't be "formally" recommended until 1957. The "newest" NYC subway cars at the time were the R11 & R15.
We can SHIP 'em to ya, ya know.
Oh, you asked who Sea Beach FRED is.... nevermind
So some of us Brighton Line fanatics do all the fun and remind Fred of how we feel about his Sea, eh no SLIME BITCH Line really is.
And boy do us Brighton fans enjoy it! :-D
Rats ... feh ... I'm from da BRONX ... whaddya think "Chicken DELIGHT" was? Bobka? Pastelillos? heh.
But yeah, bring on your worst, don't forget "tourist guy" on the bottlecaps between the cars ... and if you can arrange for my interval to end at 76th street (with penalty time for the relay since I ain't got no dang switchman) then let's DO IT! (as Bluto Blutarsky would say) Heh.
Unca Selkirk ain't got *NO* fer shame ... baked daily. Heh.
FOOD FIII-IIIIIIIIII-IIIGHT!!!!!!
I've been on this board for 3 YEARS and I'm trying to figure out the same thing....hahahahaha! :)
Agggh! Ain't California got anything better? After all, it's Gray DAVIS' fault that ENRONCheney ran up their electric bills. :-\
My sympathies to ALL of you ... you'd THINK that the press out there would ask how Minnesota made out with THEIR celeb guv ... if'n ya wants to apply for political asylum, send me an email. :)
Sea Beach Fred for Governor'''
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
How about your platform?
Keep the Rockefeller drug laws (nobody asked you to try drugs.)
Increase funding for public Transportation
Better oversight of the MTA and it's finances
And a State budget that is on time after 19 cosecutive years missing the April 1st deadline.
Heh. You should've seen the look my gf gave me when she found a copy of BAHN on my comp!
Nice program - but haves a useless signal system.
It could do with distant signals and braking instead of a signal turning red one sec before a train arrives and it amazingly decellerating instantly from 300kph to 0.
However, it is the best program out there.
My main gripe is how it won't let you have multiple levels and curved tunnels.
That's right!
Bill running Boston stuff?? never seen it happen! :)(and probably never will)
Don't understand that ... well I guess he's only interested in preserving & stabalizing the Boston rt stuff ... but that's not a bad thing.
There are shop folks at Branford that frequently make little comments about what the "operating department" does to the stuff they work so hard on. It should make them happy that I stopped a kid in a brithday party from jumping on the brand new retan seats of 1602.
But I sure do understand and APPRECIATE the efforts of everyone who's done SO much to make those cars work better than they did on the real railroad! Unca Selkirk tips his hat to ALL!
The "pull move" was the preferred method if you could.
6144 is a Baltimore Peter Witt, not a Filthadelphia car.
One of our BSM folks goes to Seashore to help take car of it.
It's been "standarized", and the ONLY genuine un-altered Baltimore Witt is 6119, alive and well at BSM.
Koi
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/bvesite/
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jeff W
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The pocket tape recorder gig I toldya?
You're welcome, spot.
From there we will take the 7 from 42 Street to Woodside, transfer to the Q53, take it all the way to 116 street, transfer for the Q35, take that to the last stop(Flatbush Avenue), take the 2 to 42 Street, lunch break (pending on how everyone is). After the lunch break take the N/R to 59 street, transfer for the X23 to Huguenot. Take SIR from Huguenot to Tottenville, take the SIR from Tottenville to St George, Take the ferry from St George to South Ferry and from there its up in the air.
I will be wearing white shorts, and my railfan trip traditional 3 train shirt. I will also be carrying a camera in a small black case.
No, they do not look exactly like the HBLRT/NCS electric LRTs. HBLRT/NCS cars are built by Kinki-Sharyo, for one, while the DLRVs on SNJLRT are built by Bombardier; also, there are fewer doors on the SNJLRT DLRVs than on the Kinki-Sharyo electrics (two per side versus four per side respectively). Won’t be long before the word “railbus” gets stuck on these DLRVs when they enter regular service…
That means it runs slightly more often than the R6 Cynwyd line!
: )
Mark
Mark
Very nice.
Now, will Jersey Mike get off his duff and persuade the PATCO Board to build a new PATCO branch? Come on Mike, that's your territory we're talking about!
Many people are clamoring for rail service to Glassboro/Millville. A study is currently underway (the 15th study in the last 32 years)*. PATCO-style, as well as commuter rail and light rail are being studied, on the obvious route (former PRR, where the PATCO branch would have been built 30 years ago had they done it) through the towns, as well as along the ROW of route 55 (where the traffic is).
* note: estimated numbers, close to factual
Yes, I agree with you!
So, are you gpoing to do something about it, or what?
Mark
This would be to encourage people to park at the 36th Street park'n'ride and drive home from there. Railfans have suggested running (heavy rail) Budd RDC's north of 36th St after hours.
That's okay, as long as you jealously guard the right to imprison them for dangerous driving.
Correction. Ron ISN'T able to drive now. Then Ron wouldn't be ALLOWED to drive. ;-)
You're not alone. The only things with an engine I've ever been in control of are a 50cc moped and a lawnmower!
If they have to use public transit more because of this, that's less space (and an opportunity for me to have a less aggravating commute.)
I turned 22 last week, and speaking of driving, tomorrow I get to go court for my fifth speeding ticket (sixth overall) :-)
Don't they take away your licence for speeding that many times?
I was arrested for doing 33 mph over the limit, but my license wasn't suspended. The real beauty was that I was found guilty and the prosecutor didn't have my driving record, so the judge had to assume that was my first offense, and my fine was only $101 plus defensive driving school. Much better than $500 the prosecution wanted :-)
I can scarcely imagine what your insurance premiums must be.
Bah. My car has a nice loud Flowmaster cat-back and doesn't attract cops.
> Or do you deliberately burn rubber when you see a patrol car?
You may have the key there. I past a few Highway Patrol cars on the LIE and Northern State doing about 70-80 each time and never got nailed. However I wasn't swerving in or out, following the other guy closely, not passing others at a noticably greater speed, etc. In other words going fast but not attracting attention.
I guess it also depends on what kind of day or experience that patrolman has had, too. Im sure if he found most guys in Firebirds gave him a hard time, he'd be more likely to pull one over.
And my last word: local directives. A few years officers were told to target Corvettes, Camaro/Firebirds and Mustangs on Queens Blvd. Imports weren't targeted specifically. A friend got nailed for doing 39 on Queens Blvd in a Camaro.
**
Regardless of age and car the subways a much better deal anyway. I go through $40 in gas a week just on my RDOs. The subway costs me nothing - or at most $20. No worrying about accidents, flats or even worse, parking.
If you're caught driving without having a license, wouldn't it invalidate your insurance coverage?
You could say that.
You get caught speeding in the UK and you get fined £60 (about $90) plus they put 3 points on your licence. If you reach 6 points within your first 3 years of driving, or 12 points thereafter, you lose your licence.
If you're really taking the piss and driving at 20mph or so over the limit, they'll take you to court and get you banned immediately. Also, they'll try to nail you for Drink-Driving, Dangerous Driving, Reckless Driving, etc if they can (some of which you can be sent to jail for).
Driving without a licence or insurance is a VERY serious offence. To put it in proportion, if you have less than 1.6mm tread on any tyre, you will get 3 points and a £60 fine. If all 4 tyres are that worn - you guessed it, you lose your licence.
Back here in Brooklyn, there is a different reason to stay on the subway -- insurance. All new drivers end up in assigned risk, with a mimimum cost of $10,000 per year (yes you heard that right). After all, in a no-fault system someone has to pay for the uninsured.
The end game is only one person left in Brooklyn who actually has car insurance, at a premium of $50 million per year. Health insurance is going the same way.
That's absurd. It's almost as if New York wants to encourage its young people to move away as soon as they can.
I've got a better suggestion. Rather than penalize responsible people - in other words, those who have insurance - for all the "smooth operators" who try to beat the system by driving without insurance, enact effective penalties for uninsured operation. What do I mean by effective penalties? Here's a hint - I don't mean fines, community service, probation or suspended sentences :)
I imagine some of our contributing attornies will check in, but at some point (maybe even immediately) you can't be held in the United States simply for not having ID.
At one point in New York (pre computerized databases certainly), I think being pulled over and not being able to produce a license would earn you a summons for unlicensed driving -- which could then be dismissed if you produced your license at the precinct within a certain time period (48 hours?).
I don't know what happens nowadays. (And I don't want to find out -- at least not from personal experience).
CG
In the southern United States, it used to be (still is) that if you were caught speeding you were locked up until the fine was paid.
I don't know where the hell you got that from, but you are totally wrong.
The long answer to a short question...
Presuming (1) that the person has insurance to begin with, (2) that their license was subsequently suspended but that the insurance company did not cancel the policy upon suspension (this happens frequently because the insurer is not notified of the suspension), and (3) that the person continued to make premium payments (or had paid in full) then:
The collision coverage would be invalidated if the vehicle was being operated by the driver with the suspended license. It would not be invalidated if the car was being driven by some other licensed driver with the owner's permission.
Comprehensive coverage (theft, fire) would not be invalidated, as it generally has nothing to do with driving the vehicle.
The murkier question is the liability coverage. Courts across the country have been inconsistent, but have frequently found that the liability coverage remains in place even though the license was suspended. Reading into the cases generally finds that the inconsistency generally stems from sympathy for a victim who would be otherwise uncompensated.
In a situation where the owner has a low liability limit (say, 10/20 or even 25/50) and causes significant injury (say, hundreds of thousands of medical bills) to someone -- even while in clear violation of the conditions of insurance (such as driving with a suspended license) -- most insurers will quickly pay out the limit of the insurance policy rather than risk a potential bad faith lawsuit (a successful bad faith claim invalidates all policy limits and can put the insurer on the hook for the entire bill plus non-economic damages such as "emotional distress".
CG
I've been out of town a lot this month - including during the blackout - and am wondering if any of you saw any stories about people stuck on the subways during that time, who met and started a romance with someone they met during their subway ordeal.
I'm sure it happened. Odds are for it!
I wasn't around to read the local papers or see local news reports, so
I missed it.
I'd love to make a new "Subway Stories" shirt with a story like that.
Thanks!
Subway Grrl
FRONT:
A black (dark) colored tee... two oval white "eyes" in the center with lowered pupils (optional: a thin half-circular frown)
BACK:
Bold White Text:
"Subways during the Blackout of 2003"
and the Oval MTA logo at the top spine.
Plain & Simple tho wouldn't surprise me if someother comp has already sketched this 1.
I want to hear the good things, about how people found each other in
a time of crisis!
Subway grrl
Does anyone remember this strange subway strike?
Yes. It was organized by the MBA (Motormans Benevolent Association). They also organized something a few years earlier.
No.
1. The 1957 strike started on Dec 9th and ended on Dec 16th.
2 The MBA accused the Transit Authority of bugging their offices.
The last MBA strike put out about half the system--I may be wrong at which division went which way, but IIRC half the BMT went out and most of the IRT, but little of the IND. It was a classic dispute between craft unionism (MBA/CBA) and industrial unionism (TWU).
The TA offered any operating employee who would work continual pay if they helped break the strike. This meant they would be paid 24/7 as long as the strike lasted, even for sleep time on company property, and they would get overtime for all time after 40 hours on the property. A lot of men worked, and this broke the back of the MBA and consolidated the TWUs power, which they used to great effect in the 1966 strike.
The IRT had an original set of signals installed when built that were phazed out between 1920 and 1950 to be replaced by US&S cast iron traffic light type signals. I believe that the BMT and IND were both built with cast iron traffic lights, mostly of GRS manufacture. When the IRT's old signaling system was replaced, the initial states re-used the "old" US&S heads, but now adays (mostly on the 1/9, 4, 5 and 6 elevated portions) they are being and have been replaced by GRS heads. There are some other isolated instances of replacement signal heads, once example being the Queens Blvd Line where the original GRS units were replaced by new US&S heads.
The oldest head that I was aware of was on the 7 at the end of either the Times Sq or GCT platform dating from the opening of the line, but it was replaced sometime ago.
Right now the line with the oldest signal system is Canarsie.
The rest of the BMT has been re-signalled ca 1960-ca 2002,
again with isolated patches of 1914-vintage equipment.
After that, believe it or not, much of the IND is untouched
since 1932-1948.
The Carnashie line has some very unique signals down near the Carnashie end. They looked sort of "home made" with oddly small lenses, but the same sort of GRS boxy look. They were either very old or some sort of newer "hack" job preformed by the C&S boys. Do you have any info regarding this?
You say the BMT was re-signaled, but, for instance, on the JMZ it looked as if the original (original from when colour light signals were installed) GRS colour lights were still in place. Do you know what the new signals replaced?
Canarsie has some strange stuff in places. It is mostly typical
BMT GRS but at the terminal there is US&S equipment.
As for the Broadway Brooklyn/Jamaica line, it was re-signalled
I believe ca. 1991. The signal heads are new GRs heads and
they tend to sit on little pedestals which contain a junction box.
I don't know when color-light signals were first installed on
that line...ask Jeff Erlitz. What they replaced was probably
Hall or Federal semaphores.
Are you talking about signal 122C. It looked like the green and yellow lights were in one box, and the red light was in a different, and slightly larger box. It was just south of the 5th Avenue station, and has since been replaced.
http://www.nynewsday.com/nyc-ferr0902,0,3658876.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Well I did the math and decided to stick with the ferry for now - the combination of parking at the ferry lot and using the boat is still slightly cheaper than parking at the Queens Plaza municipal lot and taking the subway.. And its easier on my nerves ;-)
Then I won't go either, because I wouldn't go there without three other guys, all of whom are bigger than me, and at least one of which is armed.
(sorry about the quality of the photo, again it's a slide, and I can't get them to scan better)
I'm not even going to speculate as to what's behind the 1962 false wall where the original southbound outer platform is. Rats the size of wart hogs!
wayne
Only if they are running on the 6's trackway. When they rebuilt and realigned Brooklyn Bridge station, the former local platform at Chambers was removed to build the 6's new alignment.
One of the pillars that used to be on the local platform, the front of which you can see at Chambers, the back of which you can see along the 6's trackway:
(From Joe Brennan's abandoned station site)
However, there was just one spot that always creeped me out when I was a kid. It's the place where the Brighton platforms at Prospect Park dip sharply under the Malbone Street tunnel. You could hear the Franklin trains rumbling above, cold damp winds whistled out of the Flatbush Avenue tunnels and every now and then there was a loud resonant CLANG, like a huge gong, that echoed through the tunnel. To this day I never could figure out what made that sound, and I did try. It bugged me enough that I stopped waiting for trains in that area.
OTOH, I rode through the Malbone Street tunnel itself numerous times, especially before the crossover was built north of the tunnel portal. I would hang out the front window of a Standard (which stuck out in such a way that you didn't feel like you were in a train at all) going through there, and it never bothered me a bit. Go figure.
Only highlight while waiting was seeing an OOS R46 roar past the station sporting a rear sign that was stuck between "J" and "Z."
wayne
Grand Concourse Line (B)(D)-Tremont Avenue
Crosstown Line (G)-Classon Avenue
Queens Blvd. Line (G)(R)(V)-63rd Drive/Rego Park
Now, if that's not creepy, I don't know what is. Oh wait, Chambers Street. :)
Mezzanine at Bedford-Nostrand is a VAST expanse of emptiness.
Halloween (and the demise of the 9) isn't for another 59 dias...
Any station south of 59th st/4th Ave in Brooklyn, AND has all or a portion of the station outdoors.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free @ www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thanks
--Z--
Upcoming Events link on the homepage of this site
Thank you
--Z--
Suffice it to say that those were the dates that the equipment and personnel were available. No schedule will satisfy everyone. Hopefully we'll see some more trips later in the year, after all the holidays.
OTOH, a trip that takes place every year conflicting with a holiday is no big deal, there's always another year.
Moo?
Unfortunately many of us pay monthly web space fees, so not maintaining the site but keeping it up still costs money. Its one of them things about the web that suck. :)
Amen. That's why I took nycsubway.net when I saw it was available. I did it in a fit of pique when I say that nychistory.org, which had been a site maintained by the Museum of the City of New York became when of theose &^%^&%!!! search engines when it dropped. Now nycsubway.net at least points to my links page.
I'll be happy to point it here if you want it, Dave.
(Note that this predates the blackout.)
There's one similar at Willets Pt Blvd, but when I saw it it didn't work too well. It said "Main St (7) in 19 minutes" when I got there, the (7) arrived in about 15. Sometimes it counted too slow, sometimes too fast. Guess they have yet to perfect it.
And it has an annoying "bing" sound when it changed. Not that anyone knew what it meant.
The system is long overdue. I say this a few days after having spent 10 minutes poised on the staircase at 50/8 waiting for a C or an E, and then another 7-8 minutes waiting for an A at Hoyt (I gave up my seat on an R-38 so I could stand in a hot station and then stand on a crowded R-44 and not even catch up).
In addition to giving ETA's, the signs at express stations should indicate how far one needs to be traveling before the express is estimated to get there first. In my case last week, the sign could have said something like USE C TO EUCLID. That would have gotten people to their destinations sooner and reduced the crowds on that A train, which I don't think passed a single C on its entire run.
And how many NYers do you think are likely to take that advice. Pretty much everyone wants the express, they don't think that the local can save any time under any condition.
I've actually seen the system in operation once or twice. Delays were very rare. My guess is if such a system were used by NYCT then chalk dust would become as big an environmental hazard as steel dust.
Forget the chalk. If it takes a half hour to get the message to the S/A's at the system's busiest station, the blackboards will never be used.
And you would have kids (and probably adults in this city too) erasing the board thinking it was funny.
"The eastbound train to Patchogue, scheduled to depart Oakdale at Three Twenty Eight, has been reported at The East Side of Jamaica operating Two Minutes Early."
The messages are "posted" every 10 minutes or so at the stations. This system is usually accurate and timely with the announcements. It's not 100 percent foolproof but it works very well.
Robert
Was I on your train?
I was in error. The advisory said that it was to open at 5am Monday. It opened only three hours early. My mistake.
Gotcha! :)
avid
And station incandescents usually don't cast rings from lens flare cuz they're not bright enough - at least I don't see any in the older photos on this site.
Subtle cues to indicate its not real. Although honestly I didn't know when the yellow edge was first used.
If that really was a photo of 76 St and the station really existed, I DON'T THINK your post would put the issue "to rest." On the contrary, I think it would create much more interest in the station, and generate countless more posts on the subject.
BTW, is that the Lunar Module on the left?
Its got a Euclid Ave.-like scheme: Green 5"x10" (more like Grant Ave.) tiles with a slightly brighter purple color band.
But cutely done.
- No flourescent lighting. All stations east of B-ENY had them since day #1
- I doubt 76th St would have a full curtain wall, as no local stations west of Euclid do
- This photo appears to be computer generated
All these facts seem to indicate that this is not the famed 76th St. station. Maybe I'm wrong. The debate rages on.
Nice job, though. To "The Big Bad," what program did you use?
Really? Well I'll be ...
Not over this, it doesn't. Big Bad has already said twice the picture's a joke.
Hmmm... I wonder if they're planning this for HTML 4.5
Oops, I guess I botched on the flourescents, eh?
> - I doubt 76th St would have a full curtain wall, as no local stations west of Euclid do
It doesn't have a full wall. The wall actually starts about 1 foot below platform level, but its so dark its really indistinguishable from the roadbed.
But all this is computer generated? Wow. [I thought was just a really dark, blurry shot.] How long did it take you to do that?
If it was me, I would've just combined elements of 67 Ave, Liberty Ave, and Roosevelt Ave lower level photos [don't have any of those photos, though]. I'm lazy. :)
Yeah I realized the error in that statement later. The tile orientation is like Euclid but the coloring is like Grant, with the color band of Euclid.
> But all this is computer generated?
Yup. About 2 hours: 1 to design, 1 fiddling around with renders so it didn't look too fake.
Anyway, real nice. :)
Will you model my 40-foot articulated cars for me (without the haze)? You're good!
> Will you model my 40-foot articulated cars for me (without the haze)?
When I'm done with the R-1 :)
--Z--
An island platform was easier to make :-P COnsidering it was a joke I wasn't putting that much effort into it.
Ok, no more jokes. Geez.
Ok, maybe one more :)
Same design, but should be more acceptable for use as this station. Although IIRC the station is untiled.
http://toogoodreports.com/column/general/weyrich/20030828.htm
I am not a conservative, certainly not a Paul Weyrich conservative, but I am disturbed that conversations with more liberal friends in the last year or so all seem to boil down to that "Bush is evil" and "the Republicans are evil." This is not a winning political philosophy.
By the way, I didn't know until yesterday that you publish The Third Rail. It is a wonderful journal; I thank you for sharing it with us and keep up the good work!
Well, of course, but I wonder that noone is aware that it makes it difficult to have any kind of political discussion about an issue if you are not a Democratic or Republican true believer.
By the way, I didn't know until yesterday that you publish The Third Rail. It is a wonderful journal; I thank you for sharing it with us and keep up the good work!
Why, thanks, Ron! How did you happen to find out I was connected to The Third Rail?
The middle issues use Adobe GoLive, which has adequate site management, some handy tools so I don't have to become an expert in everything, and gives me much easier graphic design and control. It also makes it easy for me to switch between the GUI and HTML for tweaking and trouble shooting. It also helps me find dead links and errors. I use CSS for text formatting.
Mostly, where I use PHP or other scripting (not on The Third Rail site) I either write it myself or tweak something available.
However, I come from a traditional graphics background, and I'm always looking for something that will let me design something like the print design I'm used to. For the Stillwell article, all but the cover was done with QuarkXpress 6.0. This has been the absolute best in getting the design to show up the way I want it, in both IE and NS. The problem is that 6.0 (and probably 7.0 as well) is really a design tool only. It has no site management at all to speak of, and very few bells and whistles, and is not really ready for prime time.
But I've been using Quark for a decade, so there was almost zero learning curve, so I love it anyway for the nice result. In case anyone is interested in using Quark in this way, a few pointers. It's an expensive program, especially if you're only using it for web design. After I do the page in Quark, I open the resulting HTML in GoLive to tweak it, fix the CSS classes, and do the site management. You can then maintain the site in GoLive (or I guess Dreamweaver would work, since Quark generates straight HTML and CSS) but the changes you have to make in GoLive don't work backwards to Quark. This means that if you want to make sure everything is up-to-date when you make a change, you either have to make the change to both the Quark and GoLive documents if it's a simple change, or, if it isn't, make all the changes in Quark, reimport into GoLive, refix the code and layout, and then republish it.
Ordinary people have grievances with conservative policies. And liberal policies.
Sorry, but anger at the other party doesn't work except for those who are committed to their own party anyway. You can whip yourself into any kind of frenzy you like, but you still have one vote.
Democrats thought anger over the 2000 election was going to deliver Florida into their hands for sure in 2002. And for certain the House. And maybe even the Senate. Didn't work that way, did it?
I haven't read his opinions, but might he like mass transit for the reasons I use when I want to really tick off "environmental" liberals and "pro-market" conservatives alike? That mass transit was a product of the market, but our auto-oriented transporation system was only made possible by government intervention on a massive scale -- because the auto requires so much land for movement and parking that it would not have been possible in developed areas otherwise?
But, as I've said, I've seen transit grow from being a politically polarized issue to being a bread-and-butter issue for many politicians on both sides of the aisle.
I rarely fail to point out to conservatives and libertarians that transit was traditionally planned, built and operated by private enterprise, whereas highways were spread by the governments socialistic use of the taxpayers' money and eminent domain.
Very good!
Redbirds aren't beloved by everyone...
I actually compiled a little data on that score, from the census bureau's Historical Statistics of the United States. Today, or course, transit is a deeply subsidized ward of the state, while the auto (if environmental and land costs are ignored) is not. Back when the road system was being built, however, the cost of federal, state and local road construction and maintenence was far higher than highway-related revenues such as gas taxes and tolls. And, at the time railroads and even transit was profitable and taxed!
And taxed.
Can't we take advantage of his arguments and then conveniently forget to tell Mom she's not supposed to be either in the kitchen, at the PTA meeting, or waiting naked in bed? Maybe Paul will be too busy to notice...
OTOH, as a parent, I have seen a lot of the wreckage of the fact that in rightly saying that women should be able to achieve what they can, we have absolutely devalued the skills of raising children, one of society's most important and also most badly neglected tasks.
Talking about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
In the post I responded to, I should have removed not from the first sentence. I meant to say, Let's use Paul Weyrich for transit advocacy and toss out the woman as homemaker, cook and sex provider part.
I agree about the wreckage, but not sure about the cause. It seems that 40 years ago (though to a far less than the universal extent now assumed) men and women were locked into narrow roles. Good news -- at least SOMEONE went out and earned a living and SOMEONE was with the kids, like it or not. A lessening of rigidity worked for better and worse.
In some families fathers became more involved in the household than before, balancing the added presence of mothers in the workplace. For example, my wife and I both worked part time when the children were young; most fathers I know had similar arrangments. Of course, we both worked full time before the children, are pretty much working full time now, and will work even more when they are grown. In contrast, my father worked so many hours I almost never saw him; my mother, a good student, didn't go to college, left work at marriage, and always resented it. She was very bored when the kids left.
On the other hand, in other parents the father (or sperm provider) disappeared and the mother pretty much did too, especially after society was no longer willing to support them at home.
So when people make their own decisions, you get a variety of results.
Back OT -- one result of mothers in the workforce is two cars in the family rather than one, and non-work trips organized around the car rather than the neighborhood. In early suburbs, people walked and biked to school, park, store. Not now.
My point was that we have glorified the work world, so that women can now enjoy the same boring dead-end jobs to get by that men have.
Though it didn't necessarily have to follow, we also denigrated women's traditional work, especially raising children. I'm not saying we denigrated the women doing the work, we denigrated the actual work itself.
Now a lot of people seem to think that raising children isn't very important, or very skilled, or a very worthy thing to do, and society (and the children) has paid the price.
Again, Im not sure I see it where I live and among the people I know. What I see is, if anything, overparenting compared to my own youth. Far more paranoia about just the right food, environment, mentally stimulative play, school and curriculum. Far too much adult directed activity.
I think there was a big shift from the front end of the baby boom -- the 1960s folks -- to the back end, my generation, which really grew up in a different world. For example, college educated people in my generation had children significantly younger, leading to a double shot birth peak in the early 1990s. Women in my generation didn't feel the need to "assault" the workplace -- that was already established and assumed. And the men who went on to become good parents fully expected to be #1 or 1A in their children's life. That was already established too.
So, lots of women stayed home when their children were young, at least part of the time, with neither criticism nor regret. Many men did also. You just don't see the legendary "power couple" with a nanny from 6 am to 8 pm. Maybe it's Brooklyn vs. Manhattan and the burbs.
It's really pathetic the way so many parents are grossly overprotective of their ankle biters. Today, if little Johnny gets a black eye in a schoolyard tussle, Mom and Dad call the police on the other kid, arrange for Johnny to get psychological counseling to deal with the emotional trauma, and sue the school for negligent supervision. A generation ago, they would've yelled at Johnny for being a wimp and losing the fight.
My daughter will be going into the 6th grade. As she did last year and half of the year before, she will walk to and from school with our 4th grader, in part through the subway to avoid a difficult intersection. None of their friends will walk to school unescorted. Wait until the other parents here about transit training at age 12.
What we have heard from older parents is that at a certain point it's just "bye Mom and Dad" and that's it. No transition, no gradual development, no learning, no working on it. Sometimes I wonder if these folks understand that they are supposed to be raising adults, not children.
Not everyone on Long Island lives in school districts where the parents work at power jobs, have a succession of nannies with limited English and take their children to therapists while they go to their chiropractor appointments.
Your older daughter must be what, 11? It's really sad that parents of other children her age won't let them walk to school alone. Back in my day ...
That is the overstatement of the year.
Deviant adults (both sexes, BTW) are the monority in the world, but because it's lurid, it get the media attention and gets blown out of all proportion.
They aren't hiding behind every lamppost, even if the media makes it look that way. Same for those who steal from their employer.
My wife and I (two worker family) successfully raised two adult daughters, who are making their way in the world.
Folks ... PLEASE rent the movie "NETWORK" ... sit down, make some popcorn and WATCH it ... I spent most of my LIFE working in "the MEDIA" both in front of, and behind the camera/microphone. NETWORK is truth ... what you're being fed now is NOT ... LEARN the difference!
And Unca Dan ... I *know* YOU know the difference, you merely provided the stimulus for me to say this to OTHERS. :)
We're really going off topic here, but as a Catholic also the problem isn't that a few priests went bad. That has been true for centuries, the subject of numerous jokes in the middle ages. The source of outrage is weak leadership combined with arrogance by the bishops, who just hoped the problem would go away and caused additional victimizations to occur.
Getting back to walking to school, it is a real issue, and relates to transit. The percentage of children walking to school has plunged in the past 40 years, while the percent being driven has soared. In the suburbs you'd expect that -- many newer ones are built without sidewalks. Moreover, when I was in college at Colgate virtually no one has a car. Today, in affluent suburbia, many teens have their own.
But in Brooklyn? We lived here to get away from all that, to give our children the opportunity to transition to adulthood with increasing independence WITHOUT the car.
In fairness, in Brooklyn today you've got "yuppies," college graduates who moved in from elsewhere, immigrants, and a few "townies," folks who grew up in the borough and stayed. You have a lot of "townies," in Windsor Terrace and at the kids Catholic school. These are folks who stuck it out in the bad old days, so their attitudes are understandable. And yet, crimes is down, and even immigrants and "yuppies" keep their kids on a short leash. Even in the older "bicycle suburbs," kids aren't allowed to go around anymore.
It has been said that 6-year-olds commonly travel to school alone on the Tokyo subway. Here in New York, kids twice that age can't ride by themselves.
Here's the problem. Say a year from now, when my daughter is 12, I might be willing to let her ride the subway with a friend or two. But she doesn't have a friend who will be allowed to ride the subway.
Most kids would probably find that a lot more fun than participating in some organized pay-to-play youth sports league or spending hours on the computer.
I was pretty psyched last week when I drove past my old elementary school and saw some kids playing stickball in the evening. I can remember days when I pitched 20 or 30 innings in one afternoon only to come back and do it again the next day.
CG
If anyone has seen the play or movie of Becket, about the Archbishop of Cantebury who defied the King of England and was martyred as a result, they may not be aware that the play rather glossed over an important issue. The dispute was that a member of church staff (not a priest, IIRC) murdered someone, and the secular government (i.e., the King's government) wanted to try that person. The Church claiemd the right to try the murderer themselves, thereby setting themselves up as a goevrnmental power in their own right.
What happened in the recent case was a secular crime, just as in Mediaeval England, but the Church decided to handle it themselves, something that would not be allowed any secular organization.
Somehow though, I'd personally prefer to lay prostrate before the Bishop than before Jerry Fallwell. Just a personal thing, ya see. Heh.
I applaud the Massachusetts Attorney General for forcefully saying that the church's organization will be held accountable by secular authorities here in the US.
Colleges, actually, have tried to paper over things like sexual assault by discouraging students from going to law enforcement, and relying on disciplinary boards to "try" cases.
If a crime is committed against any member of my family on campus, I promise the police will be involved regardless of what the college says.
If a crime is committed against any member of my family on campus, I promise the police will be involved regardless of what the college says.
I absolutely agree with you on that and wish you the best of the luck. I hope you never have occasion to test it, but remember that most college students are legally adults and if they succumb to the college's pressure to handle an issue "nonjudicially" I'm not certain there is anything you can do.
When we moved my stepdaughter to college (SUNY Stony Brook) a couple of days ago, I was somewhat surprised to see handouts in the dorm that listed all reported crimes on campus during the past three years. Apparently there's a federal law requiring this disclosure. There were a whole bunch of other handouts too, topics like how to avoid getting AIDS, recognizing dangerous mind control cults (does railfanning count?), the dangers of bulimia (rumor has it that scarf & barf parties are all the rage among college girls today), why you shouldn't gobble magic mushrooms, that sort of stuff. Anyway, Stony Brook looked remarkably crime-free from the handouts, though to some extent that may represent low reporting rates.
"recognizing dangerous mind control cults (does railfanning count?)
Of course it does (beware the secret Arnine ritual)
:0)
In the growing up years of my young daughters, I ran into a number of adults acting inappropriately in places where children were, both in city and suburban settings, often directly in or near children's playgrounds or schools. Time was, those people would be at least challenged, or quickly identified and ousted and warned. Now I've heard advocates saying "what are they really doing. You can't tell someone where they sit or stand in a public place."
The New York Times recently had a gratuitous editorial in which they expressed a fear of the growing number of "Amber Alert" laws. They fear that vigilantes will start catching and harming innocent people. Have you heard of a single example of this happening? But are you aware that, though murder of abducted children is exceedingly rare (about 1/2 of 1 percent of all murders, about 1 incident in every 10,000 missing child reports each year) this still amounts to 100 children a year. (Source: Christine O. Gregoire, Attorney General of Washington [State] and U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention)
If one-tenth that number of convicted child molesters were murdered by vigilantes, there would be a national press uproar.
This situation doesn't apply to the fact that we should have the right to tell even a harmless adult "this is a child's playground. If you are not accompanying a child, you may not loiter in or near it."
Play areas in NYC parks have signs warning "No adults except in the company of a child."
Now the signs are small and can be easy to miss. I read a story a while back, in the NYPress I believe, of a male NYU student who sat on an open bench in a play area in Washington Square Park, not noticing the sign, and within minutes found himself being grilled by the police. They basically accused him of being Chester the Molestor personnified and refused to believe him when he said that he didn't notice the sign. The hapless student ended up with a trespassing citation, and the cops made it clear that they were sorry he couldn't be charged with anything else.
I'll bet you anything that a female NYU student in the same position wouldn't have been treated anywhere near as harshly, if indeed the cops bothered her at all. So much for gender equality :(
Yes, there could be more to the story. It's not easy for me to admit that, given the way I have come to think about the NYPD in the aftermath of 9/11, but it's fairly evident that the student in question may have had an incentive to skew the story in a particular way. Moreover, while the NYPress (which I believe was the source of the story) is entertaining, it may not follow the same journalistic standards as some other news outlets.
Getting back on-topic, I was thinking about the news story a month or so ago - which led to some particularly vitriolic debate on Subtalk - about the pregnant woman who claimed that she was humilitated and cited by cops at Times Square station. Has there been any follow-up on the story?
I saw the DVD of Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine this past weekend. Moore, who's of course an uber-liberal, went through all sorts of logical convolutions to make welfare reform responsible for the (supposed) recent rash of school shootings. He cited a case in Michigan in which a 6-year-old fatally shot a classmate, using reasoning (if you can call it that) which went approximately as follows: Welfare reform forces Mom to work. Mom doesn't make enough money. Mom and kiddies get evicted. Mom sends 6-y.o. to stay with his uncle while she tried to sort out matters. Uncle has gun. 6-y.o. finds gun. 6-y.o. brings gun to school and shoots classmate.
In short, by trying to create a link between transit use and family life patterns, Weyrich is simply engaging in the same sort of tortured logic that Michael Moore has done, except from a different political angle.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
How about "the Republicans and Democrats are both evil"? For reasons described in http://www.ipny.org/equalpro.html.
Exactly the same arguments that Bush has always used, e.g.:
- the terraceds - oops, terrorists - are evil (yes, I think that everyone except Clinton, who invited members of Sinn Fein IRA to the US, would agree with that - we could say Bush happens to be right, but the quality of argument is still pisspoor)
- anyone who looks like a terraced is evil (and therefore should be stripsearched and sent back home for not looking like they're from a ranch in TX)
- Saddam Hussein looks like a terraced (and daddy didn't like him either), so he's evil
- the French have noticed I have a crap argument, so they're evil
- French Fries include the name of the evil French, but they are not evil, so we will rename them Freedom Fries lest people think they're evil
- the UN is evil
- everyone is evil
This is not a winning political philosophy.
It's perfectly winning. Tsar Ivan IV, Hitler, Stalin, Queen Elizabeth I, Blair and Bush have all used it successfully, to name a few.
Normaly I would not respond to posts like this one.
Remarks like that scare the hell out of me!!
The rights enumurated in the Bill of Rights belong to individuals.
John
Humbug.
The economy is still in the shitter, BUSH will not be re-elected.
Sen. Shummer, D-NY announced the Bush's friends, the Saudies have cut back production of oil.
Step back and look at the picture.
Wasabie is the OFFICAL STATE religion of the Saudies, it is extremism against the west and ALL non beleivers.
The Saudies are tight with the current US administration on a PRIVATE level.
Iraq oil is a low point of production and will remain so as long as Saddam supporters and terrorist are lose in Iraq.
Its deliberate by the Bush Aministration , in an effort to tear up Alaska for more oil company profits.
avid
No, wasabe is a condiment made from pickled horseradish. Wahabism is a sect of Islam.
: )
Mark
avid
I do not want to paint a large group of people with one stroke, but this is the answer I have heard many times. It reflects frustration with the ruling elite in Riyadh.
avid
Rent the video or DVD of "Jackass" some time and watch the wasabe-snorting stunt.
The original and main attack on Saudi Arabia as potential enemy has come from solid conservatives, such as Dan Quayle, Newt Gingrich and in the office of VP Cheney.
(1) NYC has more subways and commuter rails than anywhere else in North America, so there are relatively few medium-density corridors where light rail would make sense. Most NY/NJ rail routes are so heavy that light rail would not have the capacity.
(2) While of course it's true that most of the heavy bus routes in Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Manhattan were once trolley routes, it's also true that to simply run trolleys in mixed traffic without any priority signals or lane reservations is what doomed most trolley routes to bus conversions 50+ years ago. And since it's extremely unlikely that governments would provide the initial heavy capital investments to restore light rail (substations, power distribution, tracks, yards, shops), it's not really worth the time to dream about restoring trolleys to NY. It's not going to happen.
While I am definitely a pro-light rail person, I also recognize what I call "the realm of reality" - surface transit routes in NYC will continue to be bus for a long time into the future.
One reason given me was that light rail was too "sexy," meaning that there was too much competition for federal funding, and that the state preferred to get its rail money for subways and commuter rail.
For the city, light rail would mean another type of equipment to manage, and a different infrastructure to maintain. You have no idea how conservative the city is those respects.
Trying to simulate the capacity and advantages of light rail with armies of buses in mixed traffic is no picnic either.
So, honestly, what would you expect. Not even the Third Avenue Railway System with its nice-&-neat third-rail system could survive the ravages of National City Lines and, indeed, the mode of transportation that Fifth Avenue first embraced (here is an example of what ran on 5th Avenue back as far as 1917).
BTW, if anyone wishes to speculate about the possible survival of the TARS as a streetcar system, does anybody think that we would have eventually seen third-rail PCC cars on there…?
1977..."Guide-a-Ride" signs debut at city bus stops.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. First train over the north side of the Manhattan Bridge
2. First train through South Ferry
3. First train into and out of Exchange Place
4. First train over the realigned northbound (L)
Btw, the R-42 set, north motor #4842 and south motor #4864.
Sorry, no pics.
Did I miss your 100th Birthday party?
I bet they were working overtime. :0)
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Huh? Works fine for me.
1. It removes the Elevated Structure and gives surface stations, the Main Terminal area would act as a transportation hub, where busses could terminate there as well,
2. This would make the area very attractive to businesses that want customers, since a lot of people would use that the terminal to go to Manhattan.
3. Light Rail was destined for the Rockaway’s, all we need is two tracks and a 2 track terminal at both ends, and the Rockaway Beach Yard would serve as the Light Rail Yard.
4. It's easier for a direct Rockaway Trip, meaning going from one area of the Rockaways to the other side.
The Light Rail Line would run 4 cars during the rush hours and 2 cars other times. During Rush Hours 9 trains would be running the line. providing about 4 to 5 minute headways maximum. During Evenings and Weekends it would run every 15 minutes. At Nights, once every 30 minutes.
Its Stops Would be
Beach 116 Street
Beach 105 Street
Beach 98 Street
Beach 90th
Hammels Wye Terminal (Transfer to the New A Train Terminal)
Beach 73 Street
Beach 68 Street
Beach 60 Street
Beach 44 Street
Seagirt Blvd
Beach 25th Street (Oceancrest Blvd)
Mott Avenue
Namaoke Avenue (If Possible) (Transfer to the L.I.R.R)
The Light Rail Line would use Catenary’s to get it's power, 3rd Rail is Too Dangerous for a Ground Level Line, but the Light Rail Cars would come with 3rd Rail Shoes so that if they need servicing at Coney Island they can use the subway to get there. Paying would be through turnstiles at the station but there would be cross bridges. Since the Light Rail would have its own Right Of Way all the Light Rail needs would be light adjusting so that when it's approaching a road it can change the lights ahead so that it would be red.
I think it's a smart approach for an area like the Rockaways and could boost its economy dramatically by promoting trans-rockaway travel.
Tell me what you think
And how would this save money for NYCT? The elevated line is already there. First you'd have NYCT money to tear it down and replace it; then you'd have NYCT spend more money to run more frequent service than currently runs.
Running fewer cars doesn't save much. Labor is expensive. And, yes, maintaining an elevated structure is expensive, too, but so is maintaining a dedicated fleet of LRV's, with a dedicated yard and maintenance facility of their own, with no flexibility to shift cars elsewhere.
If you want to improve service and reduce costs, develop a way to quickly couple and decouple cars at a station. Then, instead of sending A's to Far Rock and shuttles to Rock Park, A trains could split in half at Broad Channel.
I want to look at this from an economical standpoint: 44,000 passengers is terrible enough as it was, does it require 8 car R-44's? No, a nice 4 car LRV will do just as well. Also with a Hammels Wye Terminal that is close to the Jamaica Bay Bridge businesses will be compelled to build there because of how many people would use the transfer, and that it's easy to get too. Rockaways could be very economically viable if something was there. If it works out well, an amusement park may not be far off if the commerical development is already there, that would boost the economy more and bring housing there. It's a simple concept but what it could do as an effect is great.
Sometimes a major investement can pay off well. Also if you shop, most people would go into the city, what if due to the commerical boom a macy's or another major department store was built on one side of the rockaways, the LRV would allow movement from one side of the pennisula to the other.
I agree that there's no need for full-length trains in the Rockaways. There's no need for full-length trains at the end of pretty much any line except in Queens, but it's generally cheaper and less intrusive to run the extra cars through to the end anyway.
Cross-peninsula travel is handled more than adequately by the existing bus service, and I'm sure that almost everyone who lives on the Rockaways has a car, anyway. What makes the Rockaways unattractive to many are the long trips to the rest of the city. Forcing everyone on the Far Rock branch to make an additional transfer isn't going to help anyone.
"Cross-peninsula travel is handled more than adequately by the existing bus service,"
I would be in favor of adding a second track connecting the peninsula's rail branches together, and running a bidirectional cross peninsula train service.
"and I'm sure that almost everyone who lives on the Rockaways has a car, anyway."
Did you include the residents of public housing?
By the way, you don't save a dime with light rail. The Rockaways are also subject to occasional flooding from storms, which is why the lines are elevated in the first place.
Agreed.
By the way, you don't save a dime with light rail. The Rockaways are also subject to occasional flooding from storms, which is why the lines are elevated in the first place.
Interesting point! That hadn't occurred to me.
The large number of public housing units on the peninsula's eastern end will make any redevelopment a difficult feat, no matter how well-intentioned or skilled the developers may be.
I remember when I was about 4 or 5, living on Beach 100th Street. About 1959 or so. There was flooding due to a hurricane, I think. We lived close to Rockaway Freeway, on top of which ran the train line. I remember how the ocean definitely came up and flooded the streets, going past Rockaway Beach Blvd., up the side streets and going under the el. The water was definitely a couple of feet high. First floors were flooded; we lived on the second floor.
Funny. There was a Gambino family (but they were part American Indian, I think) next door. They had chicken coops, grape vines. And a cool tire swing hung from a tree branch. We used to climb on top of a shed to grab the tire and get a real high swing going. Right in the shadow of that elevated structure.
But the Rockaways are in Queens... (sorry, couldn't resist!)
The C/R of the 600-foot train would become the T/O of the new 300-foot train. (Yes, that means he'd really be a T/O, and he'd have to be paid as much as a T/O even when he's not operating.)
Would that really be cheaper than employing extra T/O's to operate the 2nd portion of trains from Broad Channel to whichever side gets the rear portion? Remember also that the T/O who's already the T/O would have to be payed more because of the OPTO bit.
This is a part of the argument against installing light rail on 42nd Street.
New Jersey does a lot better with it, because a significant portion of NJ Transit's assets are LRT-related and the agency has decades of experience with it.
While it might be a reasonable late night compromise, it isn't during the day.
Agreed. It has its time and place; there are excellent light rail systems operating all over the world in medium sized cities, and in secondary roles in larger cities.
And certainly you must NEVER replace existing heavy-rail with light rail—that is not LRT’s raison d’être.
Never say never. A frequent LRT service can be a great replacement for an infrequent heavy rail service.
The problem with this proposal is that it (necessarily) only replaces part of an existing heavy rail service, and thus forces additional transfers.
Never say never. A frequent LRT service can be a great replacement for an infrequent heavy rail service
And a frequent heavy-rail service can be a great replacement for an infrequent heavy-rail service at much lower capital costs. This brings to mind some of the mindless proposals I have heard, such as “replace Princeton Junction Shuttle with light rail”, “replace NJT Atlantic City train with light rail”, “replace SIR heavy-rail with light rail plus reopen North Shore SIR with light rail and connect to HBLRT”, stuff like that…
And a frequent heavy-rail service can be a great replacement for an infrequent heavy-rail service
Both equally true statements. The principal issue becomes what added value the conversion brings to the riders.
In the case of this particular suggestion, the added value was negative, because it proposed a conversion of one part of a line and hence forced an extra transfer for many riders.
In other cases, where the flexibility of light rail allows the extension (rather than cut-back and fragmentation) of the previous heavy rail service, then the resulting reduction of transfers and increased journey opportunities can yield the opposite result.
Why not just send the shuttle from Beach 116th st to Far Rock station(LIRR) instead. A hell of a lot and preserves a one seat ride for A riders to the Rockaways.
Also, what I really think they oughta do, is bring the LIRR Far Rock line to the A, and run it below the elevated structure to Beach116th st, and have only limited stops. That way, when the N-s(OB to Far Rock) is constructed(if it ever is), then the line can go all the way to Rockaway Beach, while subways are still running above it.
If I am wrong about that, someone feel free to correct me.
You win, bro. That's the best typo I've seen here in many moons. Why, as we sit here reading and typing, it keeps going `round and `round in my head.
The A train from the Rockaways primarily carries passengers to Manhattan, where driving is not a practical option and where bus service would be slow and very expensive to provide.
Perhaps a bus route should be extended into Nassau, but a rail line is a waste of money that could be better used elsewhere.
At least, the gap between Mott Ave subway station and Far Rockaway LIRR station could, at some future date be filled. It would offer a new passenger rail corridor with relatively litle new construction required. There is always hope for the Rockaway Penninsula anyway. The oceanside location will not remain fallow forever. It is not beyond the realm of probability that this reconnection would work well.
Sorry about this.
I was NOT even thinking of going.... till your post put the idea in my bulkhead and I decided to roll with it.
Would have been nice to see my fellow 34-hour spelunker.
::sigh:: Close, but no cigar. :)
I'm booked like Madonna*Britney.
(Yesh, I'm still going)
Also, it just occurred to me, regarding the Flushing line and train service to LaGuardia; why not ramp the Flushing Line down to the yard, and into 63rd St., and then of course, use the Steinway tubes for a new LaGuardia line? This removes the problem of my earlier suggestion of diverting Flushing line through 60th St. There is much more capacity in 63rd, especially once lower 2nd Av. opens. The V for instance could become Flushing-Church Av. and be replaced on Queens Blvd. with the new 2nd Av. line. Or the other way around. You could also divide it with the expresses down one line and the locals down another.
Those tracks are for the East Side Access project, but they don't go to the 63 Street tunnel. They're for the replacement Yard A (Arch Street Yard). The building will house the Arch Street Shops.
Mark
Thank You
Not NYCTA, but one of its MTA siblings.
The tracks in LIRR "Yard A" at Sunnyside, which hadn't really been put to good use recently anyway, have been removed. This is for the East Side Access project, which will put the LIRR through the lower level of the 63 Street tunnel.
A new yard and shop will be going in as part of the project. There will also be a station, but it will be located on the existing mainline tracks south of the torn-up yard in question, and will serve Penn Station trains. Access will be from the east side of the Queens Boulevard/Plaza viaduct over Sunnyside.
Mark
So, in effect, there is going to be a new, improved version of the Hunterspoint Avenue LIRR station. With better service options. Who'd a thunk it? That will make the Queens Plaza area much more attractive as a place of development and growth. I like this station idea. The railfan in me likes the idea of walking under a multi track el train-covered boulevard to a stairway that leads down to a completely different railroad system. And being as it's L.I.C., the "guts" of the place will be much more evident. Which is why I compared it to Hunterspoint Avenue rather than Woodside, a denser urban setting.
Jimmy
Jimmy ;)
This is the R110A...
Click here for R110A Update in the SubTalk Past...
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
is an R142.
This site has the T, U, and X bullets colored in blue. I thought they were white with black font bullets?
Could you email me please because it's important, my email is working as I purged some spam messages out.
Start here
R10 Roster
-Dave
Your guess is good as mine why the crews did it back then some 23 years ago, and I still do not have a valid answer why was such the case. By the way, I was out there photographing the R-10's out in the Rockaways on that very bitterly cold Saturday, and the heaters at Broad Channel station were still not enough to keep me warm that day.
-William A. Padron
[The "R-10" Pyramid]
I guess that is classed as an oddbird.
The R-10's on my all-time favorite route, the IND "A" line, were just an amazing combination that just clicked together and were a long lasting association that still holds up to this day. As I said once after the 1989 E.R.A. "farewell" fantrip, there will never be another subway car model like the R-10's ever, and I for one will not follow to have another favorite car type present or future in my lifetime.
-William A. Padron
[Welcome to "Toonheads"]
One line I did not have the opportunity to ride the R-10's on was for the Aqueduct Racetrack special, but I remember seeing the *real* #3348 as the north motor end in the lower level of 42nd Street-8th Avenue in the late 1970's. I have been also on all three E.R.A. chartered fantrips using the cars as well (October 23, 1976; June 8, 1986 and October 29, 1989).
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
BTW chances are my Jeep will hit 500,000 miles by this time next month. I figure on reaching 498,000 this Friday.
It was determined by NYC Transit that rebuilding one R-10 car back at 1975's prices would have been more than the cost of purchasing one new R-46 car, so that is why #3192 was not completely done. The car's interior was planned to be like the R-44's with a full width T/O's operating cab.
-William A. Padron
[Here's Your First Subject...Go!]
Jimmy
Only 30 R-10's (3320-3349) were involved. They were assigned in the fall of 1954 to familiarize Jamaica line crews in anticipation of the January 1955 arrival of the R-16's.
All of the R-16's were originally assigned to ENY Yard.
Strangely enough, I only ever remember 2 eight car trains in service at any one time. Those two trains seemed to be in service 24/7, and were quite a contrast to the rest of the fleet which was all Standards. They even continued to use the R-10's even after the R-16's were put in service.
I suppose that the other 14 R-10 cars were used for spares or getting maintenance.
-William A. Padron
[Don't Miss Our Next Episode...]
Incidentally, today marks 36 years since I rode at the railfan window for the first time. It was on either a CC or D train. We were supposed to catch an A at 59th St. to get to 42nd, and an A train was sitting on the s/b express track as we reached the platform, just waiting for us to board. However, I didn't know at the time that those nifty teal-and-white cars ran only on the A then, and besides I couldn't spot the roofline signs. We let it go and as the last car went by, I saw the A on the rear route sign and said out loud (I remember this as though it were yesterday), "What luck! THAT was an A train!" When that CC train pulled in, we piled in.
It was also on this date 23 years ago that I paid my last visit to New York before heading out west to Colorado. Although I didn't ride on any R-10s that day, I did see an R-10 consist on the E line.
The outside door triggers and side roll sign boxes on the R-10's were also common on the R-12/14's and R-11's. In terms of the latter, I have seen a current similar signage design nowadays on SEPTA's Market-Frankford M-4 cars (but digital) and a really but larger original box design on WMATA's Rohr-built cars.
Besides, I could recall that the print type on the lower numbered BMT AB Standards were just about the same as the R-10's thru the R-14's. I might add also when there was a massive roll sign replacement for all R-17 through R-38 subway cars in the 1980's, their type face printing in the inside (interior) position were sometimes hard or small to look at with their two-line terminal or route readings centered to the left.
-William A. Padron
[via "Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp."]
How fast did they go?
AFAIK their balancing speed was 45 mph. Of course, on the close confines of a tunnel, they seemed to be going even faster, which I dare say was in fact the case along CPW.
David
My farewell ride and I did not even realize it.
This was a rehab R-10
Escapes me why we didn't just take the 1 at 59 but I'm glad we
went to the A because that was the last time I rode an r10..
Tho I always thought the r10/12/14 were THE SAME cartype.... thanks to this
site, I see they're not (one extra doorset).
I just watched and enjoyed the site, but I had to get to work, so there was not any time for fun.
The final ultimate R-10 ride forever was on the "farewell" fantrip chartered by the E.R.A. on Sunday, October 29, 1989, and the eight-car consist of green GOH's (#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216) went on many IND/BMT division routes including the Archer Avenue and 63rd Street lines. Not only that was my last ever R-10 ride (as well as of the 250 passengers on that fantrip), it was the final time that the cars were operated ever again.
-William A. Padron
[The "R-10" Pyramid]
Jimmy
A link to the release is below...
(It would be nice if SEPTA would issue an release to customers too....but that might be too much for them
http://www.njtransit.com/ta_adjustment_project.jsp?ID=699
But it's only for one month so it's not bad in terms of duration of the SEPTA project.
All that is stated is that SEPTA R7 trains would experience delays getting in and out of Trenton due to Amtrak track work. It is amusing, however, that NJ Transit claims that their ability to maintain the connection to the R7 will be impeded despite the fact that no NJT trains will be delayed by the construction…
Chuck Greene
http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=31789
Light Rail Service Begins Running In Camden
by KYW's Ed Kasuba
If you've been in downtown Camden lately, you've probably noticed light rail line cars running in the city.
It's all in preparation for the beginning of light rail service between Camden and Trenton this fall.
Ken Miller of New Jersey Transit outlines what's taking place:
"Right now we're doing a fairly significant shakeout of the system itself. This includes a testing of the infrastructure and the equipment and how it integrates with one another."
The light rail line will operate along the streets of Camden from the PATCO Broadway station to Rutgers-Camden and then on the waterfront, where service ends at the Tweeter Center.
There are plans to keep the line operating in Camden late at night.
Service to Trenton will end at 10pm each night.
Looks like NJT could not get around the FRA waiver to permit these diesel-powered LRVs to operate on the Bordentown Secondary between 10pm and 6am.
IMHO, this ought to have been done as a heavy-rail line, using the old PRR connection to the Northeast Corridor at Trenton—that way, new LRT vehicles need not have been used, plus the existing Trenton station on the NEC could also be used, and there would even have been a possibility of running express diesel trains into Newark/Hoboken and maybe further possibility of running trains to Philadelphia via the Delair Bridge or even running to/from Atlantic City via the “Nellie Bly” PRR train routing.
The only impediments to doing heavy-rail would be the almost-street-running in Burlington, where the track runs through the center of Broad Street but the ballast and ties are exposed (this would restrict heavy-rail trains to 10 mph, versus LRVs being permitted to do the speed limit of the roadway), and also rebuilding a heavy-rail alignment within Camden versus the far-cheaper street-running alignment that currently exists.
To take people to the parking lot at 36th Street station. Parking there and riding the SNJLRT to the Tweeter Center would be cheaper than parking at the Center, and could avoid some trafic congestion hassle.
I wouldn't expect them to run around Camden late at night other than to accommodate concert goers.
BTW: (By The Way) This is the first time you posted this message with the correct spelling and sentence structure, congrats to you. Keep up the good work Danny.
Dave, maybe you should reread his post!!!
Anyway, after stopping at Canal (grr, slow speed order) and coming up the grade, I see coming out of the Rathole Line... Redbirds! In work dress of course, but still Redbirds.
Consist: 19323, 19315, S02, 19334
Perfect. I got out the camera ready to hop off at 14th when we hit track gangs south of 8th Street. They stopped my Q and let the Redbirds go. I was P.O.ed to say the least. Finally after 3-4 minutes they let us go. The redbirds were already gone at 14th, so I kept going up.
Go past 23rd and another set of track gangs. However I see the Redbirds being held on the local track. Perfect. Set up the camera again and... damn! Track gangs let it go and hold us again. I was so annoyed and sat down, put the camera away. Didn't see the redbirds again. Pulled into 34th, nothing. So I continued to Times Square when I got off.
Started walking to the front for the transfer to the 2 and what comes rolling through on the express track (apparently had south of 34th) but the Redbirds again! Grrr... The lesson of course is never put the camera away.
But if it weren't for those stupid track gangs I'd have pics from Redbirds at Union Sq and possibly Herald Sq.
Who said the bridge is faster? There are speed restrictions on the bridge that are not in the tunnel (and vice versa).
The N going through the bypass? What bypass?
> The N going through the bypass? What bypass?
The DeKalb Avenue bypass, the one the B (W) uses to get to the bridge without stopping at DeKalb.
From Pacific to Canal via the bridge is approx. 7 minutes faster than from Pacific to Canal via the tube.
But there are 6 less stops when you go via the bridge so of course it will be faster.
More importantly, it's a WAY shorter route.
So the R33WF's are serving as motors for a signal dolly train. Why, then are two singles at one end with one on the other? When I saw S02 the day it was rumored that John Rocker (the much-hated pitcher then playing for the Atlanta Braves) was to ride the #7 line, the signal dolly motors were R22's 7307 and 7371. What's with the three motors?
But based of a typical 7 day week, I may do the following:
Monday-Friday 1 swipe to Midtown 1 swipe to Lower Manhattan (to work), 1 swipe leaving Lower Manhattan to the Bronx or Queens, 1 swipe for ride back to Brooklyn (my home borough)
On Saturdays, I average 4 to 5 uses that day. Heavy traveling and possible excursion trips may increase it to 9 to 10 uses.
On Sundays I may go out with family, so that's another 3 uses right there.
So 4 * 21 days (weekdays alone) = 84 uses and THATS NOT INCLUDING WEEKENDS EITHER.
CG
I make 2 trips to school a day, that's about 4 fares (A bus, then a subway transfer) right there. I go to school 3 days a week so that's 48 fares a month give or take.
Already a $96 dollar savings. $26 minus the cost of the card.
I also use the card on the weekends. Not to mention all the swipes you can do during a railfan trip...
I must save about $100 a month with my card.
"TROUBLE IN STORE
By CLEMENTE LISI
September 2, 2003 -- EXCLUSIVE
The Second Avenue Subway could mean the end of the line for some East Side businesses.
Commercial spaces along Second Avenue could be condemned by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to make room for station entrances, ventilation shafts and power substations for the new underground subway line, officials are warning.
The MTA needs the property for each of the line's 16 stations and has targeted several potential sites it hopes to acquire through eminent domain.
Some of the businesses that could be condemned include national chains like CVS Pharmacy and Duane Reade and popular eateries like Tony's di Napoli and Patsy's Pizzeria - which have been neighborhood staples for about a decade.
"I'm unhappy about the prospect," said Bruce Dimpflmaier, general manager of Tony's di Napoli, located near the northeast corner of 83rd Street and Second Avenue, which the MTA could replace with a station entrance.
"It's one of those things where nobody wants it in their back yard, but it has to be done somewhere."
The proposed 8.5-mile line would go from 125th Street in East Harlem to Hanover Square in the Financial District.
The $16.8 billion project is scheduled to begin next year. The MTA said it hopes to complete the project in 12 to 16 years.
Under the state's Eminent Domain Procedure Law, the MTA is allowed to condemn property it needs and would have to compensate and help relocate businesses displaced by the project.
If businesses refuse the compensation package, the agency can file a petition in court to take over the property.
Most of the properties would be needed to make room for above-ground street entrances - which in some cases would be housed inside buildings - and would include elevators because the stations will have to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Preliminary plans show each station will have two to four entrances.
"We're really looking to stay here," said Perry Falk, who owns Falk Drug and Surgical Supply, a pharmacy which has been on the northwest corner of Second Avenue and 72nd Street for 50 years.
It has been targeted as a possible entrance site.
"There's been talk of a Second Avenue Subway for years. I'm not entirely worried at this point, but I am concerned."
The MTA said streets where stations will be located have been determined, but not so the exact entrance sites.
MTA spokesman John McCarthy said the agency will not decide on the locations to buy until plans are finalized next year.
"A project this extensive will require some property acquisition," he said.
Chuck Warren, chairman of Community Board 8, which spans from East 96th to 59th streets, said he wants the MTA to "minimize the impact" the project will have on businesses in the neighborhood.
Warren said the MTA has done a good job briefing residents about any disruptions construction will cause down the line. "
Click Here
Here's the article:
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/4709.htm
This is where we need a subway version of Robert Moses. He would have found a way to get all the property the MTA needs to finish the job, while eliminating the possibility of condemnation lawsuits bogging down the project forever.
MTA is doing that right now along the route of the 7 extension to Javits. Building condemnation and so on is moving ahead, it has been reported.
That's right. The East Village NIMBY's won in advance. NYCT won't mess with them.
That's right. The East Village NIMBY's won in advance. NYCT won't mess with them.
You've got it backwards. The East Village community board and activists WANT an 8th St station. The MTA refuses to provide one because it costs too much and slows the UESers down on their way to Wall St. It looks to me like the consolation prize is entrances at 12th and 2nd Streets.
It took lots of bitching and moaning, but the East Village managed to get the 2nd Ave express bus to stop at 8th St over MTA objections.
Only because they aren't being offered one. If they had been...
You're quite right about that.
The heart of the east village is, in essence, missing the only chance it will have to get a subway station. on a cost per user basis, I would be shocked to find an SAS station to be remarkably more expensive than the UES stops.
and frankly, the UES riders can wait another stop. this is a local train they are building, not an express.
is the uptown 6 transfer to the IND 6th ave line ever going to be built?
No, an 8th St stop wouldn't be more expensive.
However, 12th to 2nd is only 10 blocks. There are bigger intervals without an entrance on the UES.
and frankly, the UES riders can wait another stop. this is a local train they are building, not an express.
That argument can be made in many places, and before you know it you have a stop every 6 blocks.
is the uptown 6 transfer to the IND 6th ave line ever going to be built?
Good question. Someone posted that it got removed from the 2004 capital plan.
In a reallocation of funds, the construction budget was removed from the 2000-04 capital plan, but the design was maintained. In effect, teh construction of the transfer was postponed in order to coordinate it with ADA access and a complete station rehab.
The design is proceeding. The plan is to build it 2005-09, and a number of big station rehabs (which were a big emphasis 2000-04) will be winding down. With the fiscal situation as it is, however, the risks to anything that has been deferred are obvious.
More NIMBY-ish whining. In the long run, having the 2nd Avenue Subway would lead to more and more business for these people from subway passengers…
--Z--
That's the plan for the first part of the SAS. The second phase has the SAS extend its main trunk down to lower Manhattan, all the way to the southern part of the financial district.
In case you all were unfamilliar with Trainorders.com, it is run by a real ASSHOLE with an ego problem who takes joy in banning anyone who disagrees with him in the "Forums" section from the site without refuld. Trainorders.com became one of the more popular rail news and forum sites on the web until its owner 1) began his Stalinesque effort to crush disagreement and 2) felt it necessary to charge people $24 a year for the privillage of being subject to his abuse. I had always felt strongly about not giving this asshole one red cent and bringing down his Standard Rail Webforum of the World and so I utilized ERN and forums like Subtalk and Railroad.net Well now it looks like Trainorders.com has put the Kibosh on its competition and will now force me to pay them money in order to get my railroad related news. A few former ERN members who had had their accounts shifted of course tried to post some threads about what had happened on the forum, but of course they were quickly taken down and replaced with this.
As some have noted that Trainorders.com will be fulfilling outstanding subscriptions of Eastern Rail News. This is not a merger, nor a buyout. Essentially Kevin will be doing the news he does on Eastern Rail News on Trainorders.com. If you ended up with double accounts email me and I will consolidate them into one.
Todd Clark
Trainorders.com
Hmm, if one site closing and having its members and services transfered to another website isn't a merger or a buyout what the heck then is it? Eliminating the competitors with savage beatings and attempted murder perhaps?
Anyway, I don't know how many of you care about this, I just have no ability to complain about it where it might do the most good. The only thing we can do as subtalkers it try to get our posting levels up to Trainorders muched hyped 20,000 to 30,000 a month.
David P's gonna love to see this...
However if it becomes TOO big there WILL be a $24.95/year charge here and if and when that ever happens I guess Jersey Mike will just have to find somewhere else to complain! :-)
Sorry to imply otherwise.
Trainorders’ much-hyped 20,000 to 30,000 (posts) a month
The only reason that Toad Klunk claims such figures is because his forums shuttle new threads onto the second page within the space of one day, thus resulting in more new threads being posted within a short period of time. Most threads max out at about 24 replies. Hence the deceptive figures.
Too much junk around here as is! Jersey Mike, we are tying you to SEPTA's tracks for that statement. See how you like it when you're supposed to get run over at a specific time and no train shows.
You can only be AMUE,
But I can only be SMEE.
Jimmy ;p
Oh man, who'm I gonna play with at Branford? Oh, he has no IDEA of what he's gotten himself into if this is true ... and once you've worn the polyester, the LAST thing you wanna see again is a TRAIN. :)
You will always have Jeff, Thurston, Lou, and myself to play with. But after this weekend being conductor on 1602 for Short Beach Day, my facinations with trolleys are starting to grow. Amazing how I ignored 6688 the whole time I was up there. That's starting to scare me. LOL. But to me, a trolley is a train, a subway is a train, because they run on rails. They will both share the same level of love that I have for trains. Trolleys are new to me, so hopefully when you get on that bandwagon and come to Branford, I hope to be a qualified operator by then.
Jimmy ;)
6688's a neat car and all, but the cab reminds me of a cramped R32. I go for the older stuff personally and since I grew up in the Bronx, an IRT car (other than the LoV) is like a sewer grate - so commonplace you don't notice them. :)
Jimmy :)
And yeah, once I kicked those cables and that roll sign housing out of the cab so I could drop my bench, 1689 was like sitting in my livingroom. Heh.
8-) ~ Sparky
Galumpki and kapusta at noon, no waiting. Heh. BMTman in the TA? Look at the bright side - all they'll let him do is smile and turn a stupid key ... REAL men slapped bottle caps. Hahahahahaha ...
What if he does work his way up to motorman and picks the Franklin Ave. shuttle? You don't suppose he'd try to pull a Luciano stunt, do you?:)
Betcha inside of a year, if he sees something rolling down the track at Branford, he'll throw a derailer under it at the last minute. Heh. No one's more cynical than "X-TA" ...
I wish him well. I still wonder if I should have done that 50 years ago, alas, my parents wouldn't let me apply to NYCTS.
I washed out in just under a year ... it was my DREAM job until I was actually doing it. Heh. But I still have a number of friends that work there and love doing it. I also have a number of friends that dumped their train for the last time, said "screw this noise" and went to another railroad. Time will tell. Sure hope that TA training don't screw the boy up at Branford. (grin)
Yeah, but like I've ALWAYS said since you first KNEW me, "TA *cure* foamers*" ... wasn't chitting ... you be tardy, go see the shrink. You'd BETTER go see the shrink! Or you can talk to your TMO instead. Ever WONDER why a general kindly person such as myself would use a handle of "SelkirkTMO" for a handle if I wasn't PLAYING with (ta) employees such as myself with the JOKE of what "supervision past" was like? Now IMAGINE the pinheads in charge TODAY who have FAR less to owrry about than "Did ANY D-trains get here TODAY?" back in MY day so they could break out the PHUCKING balloons and celebrate that ONE train actually MADE it? On time?!?!?!?! Hahahahahahaha! back in MY day, NOBODY got yelled at if the train was late - only thing you had to do was provide WRITTEN paper as to "where did you lose yer time, son?" And BECAUSE they had RCI's out there, you'd turn in your "bad order" paperwork, the slip from the RCI and you were HOME FREE!
NOWADAYS, if someone's disappointed, your arse gets written up. *AND* PUNISHED!?!?!?! :-\
He also said, "that happens" ... seemed to sum up life on the arnines perfectly ... "that happens." Heh. I still liked 'em though, got along with them better than many of my coworkers.
Jimmy ; )
8-) ~ Sparky
There's always hope for reformed foamers. SOME day. (grin)
Unless you pick out to the Eastern division. Then it'll be deja vu all over again in stretch limo versions of the Kawasakis.
And NO, I ain't scanning it. Significant penalties would apply. Sorry, kids ...
Jimmy
I had the privilege of taking 8101-8108 for a run "light" while it was under testing, and it was fun. Especially the river crossing. But I was already starting to get wrist pains from a short trip. Doing 4 or 5 RT's a day would make me crazy. But if you work your arm into the right spot, ain't all THAT bad. When they was new though, it was a NICE running train. VERY smooth. NOT like arnines. At all.
Jimmy
So what this means, obviously, is that WHATEVER train I get on, it's going to run up the G D Franklin shuttle before I can go where I need to get. :)
OH the humanity ...
And for the record I did apply the brakes, but someone must've activated the Brake cut-out valve (BCO) on the SMEE car cuz it didn't want to stop after I did a full app on the controller...Boy, some people will try and blame the Operator every time! :(
Could you ... ummm ... fill this cup? And it BETTER be single malt. Heh.
8-) ~ Sparky
Maybe I'd better sneak in at 4AM and run 1689 without all you wiseguys to bust *my* hawmp. Heh. Whatever Unca BMT did, it was MY fault. He SAW me leaping over da fence, he KNOWS he wuz framed.
8-) ~ Sparky
Whenever I'm in the mood for getting ripped off, I always head over to the Red Caboose....
VERY EXPENSIVE!!!!
Jimmy
:O
Jimmy
;)
Mirror - Mirror on the wall, who the most famed tightwad of ALL???
Well, who's peering in the speculum??? YOU!!!
8-) ~ Sparky
Or to quote the Roadmaster, "There are those of us that have,
there are those of us that will". >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Jimmy
Au contraire; he saw BMTman's pay stub! :^)
Jimmy :)
Passiveness is how Hitler got in power in Germany
That is actually false—public desperation, anger, etc. due to prolonged depression is what gave Hitler and his Nazi Party leverage to attain power. When the price of bread ends up rising to some 214 trillion marks, things will certainly start to look desperate. No such crisis is being faced by the USA at present, but down the line you may view things slightly differently if deflation starts to set in (per Alan Greenspan’s warnings).
And insofar as refusal to cooperate with an MTA or NYC police officer, just remember whose property you are on, and yes, if you are on public property, they cannot harrass you. No such false enforcement ever existed during WWII and it should not exist today.
Give the poor slob who is just doing his job a break. Jeez.
The fact that you can make a statement like that with no consequences is proof the country is not going the way you are saying it is.
Or the far more nefarious possibility that certain lesser freedoms are maintained so that people can make glib comments like that one in favour of the regime.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of responsibility for your actions. The U.S. Flag is the symbol of this country (like it or not). It represents the Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution and our nation as a whole. To purposefully desecrate that symbol is 100% disrespectful to the country.
In other countries, burning their flag can get you imprisoned or even shot.
You want to burn the U.S. flag? Give up your US citizenship and move to another country.
As Franklin said, "We have given you a republic — if you can keep it.". And, of course, we could not. Phucking fascists ... :(
I may not agree with you, but I will fight to defend your right to state your view.
Long may she wave.
The lack of economic freedom in the former Soviet Union really gave that country the greatest civil liberties the world has ever known.
Agreed. But not illegal. The authority and principles represented by the flag survive and flourish despite the burning of the flag.
"You want to burn the U.S. flag? Give up your US citizenship and move to another country."
If we adopted your requirement, then the US would effectively surrender its unique character, pervert the Constitution and become just like Russia.
The whole point is that you can even burn the Constitution, and it doesn't matter. Government by the people and for the people survives and thrives anyway, and the foolishness of the stunt inherently diminishes the perpetrator. There is no need for further punishment. In fact, punishing the act would be anti-democratic.
So if you want to criminalize flag-burning, I suggest YOU give up your citizenship and move elsewhere.
And I wouldn't have it any other way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you think Bush, Ashcroft and yes, Greenspan are creating in anerica
Please note that I meant economic depression, not mental depression. We are still in recession as yet, but major differences are (a) Bush, Ashcroft et al are incumbents as opposed to radical candidates and (b) we have not fallen into such a depression as Germany had experienced due to the constraints of the Versailles Treaty.
And where might “anerica” be? Last I looked, we were in the United States of America.
You are quite confused, but alas this is subtalk, not politalk, so it's really quite absurd to begin debating.
Well now. I uh, I have to agree with that observation. The bit about point a to point b. That is what railroads do. I see no intrinsic value added to that system by the presence of eager acolytes scampering about taking snapshots. Maybe, sigh, you could use some discretion instead. To loosely paraphase a fable, be lees "cameraman Stork" and more "cameraman Log".
In a bit of strange irony, while the TM store in GCT no longer carries Peter's book, Posner's Bookstore, which is 2 stores to the left of the TM store does carry it.
In a sense it is best to keep such detailed information to "ourselves" so that we know who has acess to it. You never know who might use it for inappropriate purposes.
MORONS! :(
TOO late for those who didn't read the above. Curtail it ***NOW***??? What's the phucking POINT other than political GAIN by scaring WOMEN? That's who the GOP moved ... and well, if they lose their reproductive rights, they DESERVE what they voted for. NO sympathy here.
Yes, indeed. I detailed that saga around Christmas, 2001. The transit museum had placed a huge order with me in August '01. When the attacks hit I was in the middle of updating, but eventually I got the quantity needed for them. After the books were printed, it took me weeks to get hold of the museum, and when I did, they told me they couldn't carry it any more (instructions from higher-up in the MTA).
After almost losing my shirt on that massive printing bill (and finally selling my stock directly to members here and on other sites), I was lucky that POSMAN BOOKS in Grand Central dedided to carry it. Although their sales are a small fraction of the Museum's, I'm at least getting retail exposure in NYC. They're currently the only retail venue in the 5 boroughs. Everything else is either direct sales on my Website or mail order.
FYI, I will release version 3.5 around Thanksgiving (New PATH and revised AIRTRAIN drawings, Canarsie final alignment, much more) and version 3.6 in time for the reopening of all the Manhattan Bridge tracks and new services associated therewith.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
And do what with it? Attempt to rewire an interlocking and hope two trains meet up in the same space and time? No, a terrorist would just as easily look at a public subway map and see where an explosion would cause the greatest damage.
Although this society must remain vigilant, I really am getting fed up with everybody seeing Osama and Saddam hiding behind every rock. The media has whipped American society into a frenzy and are showing no signs of letting go. Try listening to a few of the more zealous radio talk show hosts going nuts on the topic (and think of the millions of followers of such shows) and see how badly your brain will hurt after a few minutes.
By contrast, I was in London for three blissful weeks in August, and IF I saw any more than 50 cops in that whole time it would have been a miracle. That included many evenings in the West End going to the theatre or cinema. You see that many (or more) in an hour around Times Square. Yet which of these two cities has experienced more terrorist acts throughout the years? Hint: Think IRA.
I'm no left-winger by any stretch of the immagination (colour me libertarian if anything), but the constant bleatings of the radical left and radical right are driving me nuts.
I don't mind if a cop asks me for ID or asks what I'm doing taking pictures, but so long as it stops there, fine. He's got a job to do. BUT so long as they don't cross the line and start becoming little tin-plated dictators making up laws as they go along, all's well. Alas, I think there are far too many newbies out there who see that badge and sidearm as a personal power trip rather than as a menas of upholding existing law.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
But I'm also tired of being beaten up for pointing any of this out. It ain't you, it's the spin doctors. As long as we keep soiling our armour at the designated time coordinates, we'll never ask what happened to America during this diversion or why we've got gutless leaders who have nothing but disdain for Franklin Delano Roosevelt's stirring words, "the ONLY thing we have to fear is FEAR ITSELF." :(
Top 11 reasons Bush redacted 28 pages of the 9-11 report:
11. Wanted to try out the new, black "highlighter" Dick Cheney gave him.
10. Sabotage: photocopier damaged by departing Clinton staffers.
9. Ritualistic homage to Richard Nixon.
8. Eliminates questions about tens of thousands of pages entirely
withheld by the White House.
7. Accident: Sometimes if he's not following along with his "Sharpie" he can't hear himself read.
6. Concerned about profanity in the report, Bush censored every word he did not know.
5. Saudi Arabia's new PR guy is a genius!
4. George Tenet didn't tell him exactly what not to do at that
particular moment.
3. Hubris.
2. Love means never having to say you're Saudi.
And the number one reason Bush redacted 28 pages of the 9-11 report:
1. He'd like a second term.
and I don't think that it would fall into the NYCT catagory of things that would aid a terrorist.
Consider that the maps themselves can be put together simply by looking out the railfan window (when such could be done easily) and interpreting what one sees in relation to the actual location of the rights-of-way as depicted on a Hagstrom public map.
That's not to say that it isn't a valuable resource for the subway buff. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the kind words, and don't worry...there's more to come!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
Well...that in itself ain't a bad thing. I see no good qualities about them as far as sharing the roadways with other vehicles. Not a truck, my left eye. They're basically pickups with large cabs. Yet all the hoopla about them by the manufacturers always shows people driving them as if they were sports cars. And not top heavy unwieldly clunky critters. Nothing wrong with pickups...`long as they are recognized as such.
They're more used to that type of violence in Europe. We don't experience it as often, and we've come to believe we're entitled to be free of it (9/11 showed us we're not immune).
The European response to terrorism is more low-key, but can sometimes be more extreme than what we do on our own soil. Incidentally, there are limits even in Britain.
When the IRA got carried away with bombings and raids on Northern Ireland police stations, the Brits called in the 22nd Special Air Service Regiment (SAS). Encounters with SAS 4-man teams tend to be fatal in nature, as this unit essentially has a license to kill. IRA men on their way to additional raids were ambushed and shot in Gibraltar and in Ulster at least three separate times. In oneincident, eight IRA gunmen driving a front-loading into a police station were ambushed by the SAS; reports said that each IRA man had two dozen bullet holes through him. In the last incident, a car carrying IRA gunmen was caught in a classic "L-ambush" and when the driver tried to drive away the SAS men shot at the gas tank and blew up the car and everyone in it.
While we do that on foreign soil, we tend not to do that sort of thing within the homeland borders.
And in recent events London ahs received threats as well from Al Qaeda (sic).
> and IF I saw any more than 50 cops in that whole time it would have been a miracle. That included many evenings in the West End going to the theatre or cinema. You see that many (or more) in an hour around Times Square.
I was in Times Sq last week and there were many cops BSing, and others posing for tourist photos. Did they do the same in London? Or did they appear more focused on the job?
CG
There is nothing to fear.
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
You willing to stake your life on that?
I'm not.
Stay in Atlanta Rob.
Well I wouldnt go to that extent. I would resist but would not hurt anyone else to protect my personal freedoms. Then you may be arrested for assault.
BTW, *I* don't own any TA employees' job, but don't the taxpayers of NY do?
I don't think so. Sure, we subsidize the business they work for (and you probably do too), but we voted to do so. So once we've given the subsidy to the MTA I don't think there's any ownership of the jobs left.
Purely my opinion, though.
I *failed* the battery test (it tested how well you knew how to deal with a BAT IN THE APARTMENT!) or more correctly, scored low because I was an ENGINEER with the state. Didn't test for technical skills, tested only for tolerance of BS ... the "battery test" was what caused me (along with many other aspects of mind-draining BS) to pipe off the "ship of state" ... do we OWN their "jobs?" Nope ... but we DO own the politicos that allow the incompetent to be PLACED in agencies over the COMPETENT ... and the methodology with which civil service permits political backscratching and the apoointments of MORONS over those TRULY QUALIFIED for civil service titles is a disgrace! And so is the testing methods which PERMIT it.
It ain't the hourlie's fault ... as always, it's the swine we keep RE-ELECTING. New York does NOT have recall, nor does the federal level. About TIME we consider it ... NEXT election, time to throw the bums out and replace them with OTHER bums of the same old, same old.
We REALLY need something ELSE. :(
It's fun. I don't keep up with it enough, though.
As a NYCTA Bus Operator, of which I am the operator of a common carrier, I am legally empowered to use physical force to discharge you from a bus, as authorized by federal law. Although this type of activity is frowned upon by the NYCTA, it is nevertheless on the books and enforceable.
Upon doing such, I am further protected by a change in NYS legislation which makes assaulting me a Class D felony punishable by criminal imprisonment, rather than civil citation.
While it isn't my job to enforce the law, it is my job to protect the safety of my passengers and the property of the MTA (to a point, of course).
I suggest you reevaluate your position. FWIW.
Even if the bus is in service and Rob is in compliance with all relevant rules and regulations? Just curious.
It's just one of those little-known under-publicized regulations that do exist but are rarely used.
A year or two after I first moved upstate in 1975, I was reminded by a HAND-DRAWN sign at the Adirondack Trailways gatea at PABT ... that sign still makes me chuckle all these years later ... "PASSENGERS are REQUIRED to check guns with driver before boarding bus." :)
But MY bet is that if a driver threw someone off the bus, they'd be DISCIPLINED these days. I *know* that a subway conductor would be in SERIOUS poo for smacking a moron on their train. :(
Why?
Because the EJECTMENT OF PASSENGERS rule is still on the books.
I have in my hand, hard cpy of the latest "Rules & Regulations Governing Employees Engaged in the Operation of the MTA New York City Transit System", published by the Department of Labor Relations, Reprinted April 2001, which clearly states:
EJECTMENT OF PASSENGER; REPORT THEREOF
Rule 31, Page 20
(a) In case of ejectment of passenger, no more force must be used than is necessary to remove the passenger from the car, bus or system property.....
It goes on, but I'm not willing to offer more information to non-employees. If you're an employee, email me and I'll send you the complete rule. You'll need to prove you're an employee. To do that, indicate the name of the only blank (empty) box on your paycheck stub.
How 'bout that!
Honest Injun :-)
I only had ONE occasion to get into a "down to the floor" three toot brawl with a goose ... but when *I* was done beating the qwap out of them, the responding TAPD officers picked RIGHT up from where I left off ... FOR CAUSE. :)
Even if the bus is in service and Rob is in compliance with all relevant rules and regulations? Just curious.
In the case you describe, he might conceivably be immune from criminal prosecution (though I very much doubt it), but he sure wouldn't be immune from a civil lawsuit that could cost him his house.
Similarly, deliberately breaking someone's camera can cost you a bundle in civil court if the person whose camera is broken can convince the jury of deliberate intent to damage property of great sentimental value.
Still, it exists. It is legally enforcable and it is part of the rulebook and the NYCRR.
The only issue I contend would be the civil suit you mention. I cannot be found guilty as an individual for following the rules of the MTA. I'm pretty sure the MTA would have to be indicated on the summons and complaint.
Agreed?
If you deliberately break someone's camera (which was the case being discussed), you are not following the rules of the MTA and can be assessed actual and punitive damages by a civil jury. You aren't found guilty of anything, you are just ordered to pay out significant money.
No camera issue here. I assumed you understood the reply to both topics as separate entities among one discussion. My apologies for not being clearer.
Further, I don't believe any transit worker (with the possible exception of Property Protection) has the right to remove anything from your person. In cases where an object/item warrants removal from your person (and I couldn't begin to speculate what exactly warrants a TA employee to remove anything from your person), it should best be left to the MTA Police or NYPD, as is their job; not mine. Should a TA worker (B/O, T/O, C/R, S/A, etc) physically remove anything from you, or intentionally damage any personal object/item while in the line fo duty, they have gone far beyond the scope of their duties/responsibilities, and should be dealt with appropriately; legally, civilly and internally.
As nobody has the right to lay harm on me, I have no right to lay harm on you, or your property, unless extenuating circumstances prevail during the course of "my legally empowered ability to use physical force to discharge you from a bus".
Of course, as I've stated earlier, I would be hard-pressed to physically involve myself with any of my passengers for any reason, save witness to a physical assault on another passenger.
I'd just assume let the police do their job and I'll do mine; drive my bus.
Theres alot of bitter angry transit workers who remember 9-11 so you are threating their lives.
True, I'm bitter and angry about what happened on September 11, yet I don't find fault or blame in those taking pictures of my bus two years or two minutes later. I don't find that anyone's threatening my life with a photograph they've taken. How can you?
How are we supposed to know your not a Phillipino radical muslim trying to gain info on OUR system.
You're not. You're supposed to know how to do your job. Your job title doesn't include prejudgimg someone's racial/ethnic/religious background based on their affinity for transit related photographs. Your job is to run your bus/train/station/etc according to the laws of this state and the rules of the authority.
Second of all thoughts like that make people hate buffs all the more.
What people? I'm a TA employee. I don't 'hate' buffs. As a matter of fact, I encourage the hobby. The more someone knows about the difficulties of my job, the better off I'll be when performing it (regardless of their agenda). Ala Sy Syms.. I allow my busfans to change the signs at a route terminal and take the photographs of their choice. These are people with a greater knowledge and understanding of the system as a whole, which in turn, help make your job easier by not asking the "same dumb questions over and over again". Those who appreciate the system and treat it with respect are 'transit fans' that I've met. Perhaps you should be a bit more understanding, if not accomodating.
You can quote the patriot act all you want but in reality your a foolish teenager with idolistic fantasies.
Derogatory comments such as these only make you look foolish, sir. They also help to serve against us every three years. Grow up.
In my opinion your non violent approach with certain people myself included would turn violent and perhaps accidently damage a camera.
Please explain. Your statement infers that you would be party to initiate physical contact with a passenger based solely on his/her application of a camera within the system. Am I correct in my assumption?
Now, unilaterally, you've decided that you will refuse to obey lawful limitations on your activities. Why did you feel the need to post this? You will violate the law because obeying it does not suit you. Why did you feel the need to proclaim this? You use freedom as an excuse to do what you want and threaten lawsuits if duly authorized agencies attempt to enforce those laws.
I can see why women find you so unappealing. You are a putz. I can't see why people here tollerate you. You are a parasite. You are a loser. I certainly don't approve of curb-side justice but I also hope you piss off the wrong cop.
By the way, please don't take the above personally. I'd hate to add to your problems.
Tee
By the way - did I see you get off an A train last week at penn Station? About 5' tall, black hair, glasses, shorts and a green tee shirt with a wore out "G" on it?
My Mother aint here anymore. That is indeed a low blow.
"When my little sister was in a school concert a few months ago, they announced that videotaping or phototography with or without flash was not allowed. We knew why. They hired a professional photog and were going to sell tapes afterwards."
Dont even compare that. Thats private property and private event. We are talking public places here, streets, subways,etc. I obey the law, I do. I just dont think there is a LEGAL right for cops to question photographers. Show me it and I will obey it. But I wont obey a law that doesnt exist.
You need to grow up
Ohh.....you must mean Dr. Fred Peritore !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll e-mail Fred, maybe he'll do a house call on his next trip back east. He's overdue for a ride on the Cyclone before it closes for the fall.
Bill "Newkirk"
Jail is even worse than Sea Cliff. And no mystical chicks their either.
Is this REALLY the direction you want this country to go in?
While I don't share John's views, we HAVE allowed the beginnings of what can readily become a police state. When America was attacked, it was attacked because federal agencies did not talk to one another, and ALL of the law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies were understaffed and financially short-sheeted. This HASN'T improved. HAD we had arabic-speaking intelligence analysts, and IF the FBI, NRO, NSA, CIA and other alphabet soup agencies had COORDINATION, and had the "don't let THIS person into the US" at INS, then it's very likely that 9/11 would never have happened.
MY view is that if we're going to round up people for taking snapshots of trains, tracks and stations and NOT fix the underlying causes (NOTE: I DON'T take pictures of trains, not my thing) then we've gone over the edge already and are punishing the PUBLIC for the shortcomings of our elected officials. Patriot II (for those who have bothered to READ it) is particularly frightening in its implications for abuse. But I digress.
As long as there's WWE Wrestling, most Americans will remain unable to name their senators, much less their congressfish or their local state representatives. And they won't see it coming SHOULD it come to pass. America gets its TRUTH from O'Reilly and Larry King. I recommend that people rent "Network" if they believe in the media as a watchdog. I'm lucky ... I'm WHITE, Catholic, and live out with the cows. I'm cooperative with law enforcement and I don't do anything I'd be ashamed of. I've had military people, FBI and others here on the property ... no big thing, we sat, had some beers, chuckled, talked and all's well with the world. Nobody GIVES a chit about upstate New York. Ain't worth it for terrorists, politicians, hell ... even the mosquitos are packing up and leaving. :)
And to throw this on topic, however briefly, look at how MTA handles "unfortunate incidents" ...
By the way, "Los Angeles Ca. Rail-System. m.t.a. "MR WILLIE"" was Salaam's handle in those days!!!
Couldn't you have asked the same question on 9/10/01? Did you?
I'm not sure I understand your point.
Disney saw no need to flood their parks with armed police in early 2001, but New York does. The same situation exists today. What does that have to do with terrorism?
Leaving aside the terrorism issue for the moment, the Disney parks do not require an armed police presence because, unlike a city, they're a controlled, artificial environment. No one lives in the parks, so you don't have the sort of social ills that exist in most cities. People pay (a lot of) money for a day's entertainment and in the vast majority of cases want to leave their cares behind.
Shift forward to the post-9/11 situation. NYC's leaders fret that the city's a prime target for terrorism, and in what I consider a knee-jerk response have greatly increased the number of cops in highly visible "Operation Atlas" patrols. Costly overtime is necessary because the NYPD's ranks have diminished due to a spate of retirements and other reasons. Disney, in contrast, has not seen the need to flood the parks with armed cops even though they would be very near the top of any terrorist's target list. It's true that there have been some increases in security, most notably bag searches at park entrances, but nothing remotely comparable to the NYC situation.
Has Disney underreacted? I don't think so. Has NYC overreacted? For sure!
I also think that NYC has over-reacted in some ways -- but this is the will of the people at work. Most NY'ers (and most Americans) seem to want their government to overreact to the threat of terrorism, though they wouldn't call it overreacting themselves.
It's interesting that you note Disney's bag searches. I'm sure NYC would have a different approach to their anti-terrorism patrols if they could clear out the city every night and then check what people were bringing in each morning.
I'm sure. But it surely can't be anything remotely like NYC's armed-camp approach.
I also think that NYC has over-reacted in some ways -- but this is the will of the people at work. Most NY'ers (and most Americans) seem to want their government to overreact to the threat of terrorism, though they wouldn't call it overreacting themselves.
Maybe not. Say what you want about the dearth of common sense in today's society, but I believe most people are smart enough to realize that the NYPD's show-of-force tactics are just posturing, largely or wholly ineffective against terrorist attacks. Heck, every time I see a large group of "Operation Atlas" cops standing around, I think of how they'd be a delightful banquet for a suicide bomber. And they do create an unsettling atmosphere, making the city look much more at risk than it really is. I hope sanity prevails soon.
You have made a decision to challenge the government in a way that allows you to be isolated, filed, watched, and harassed for the rest of your life if the powers that be so wish it. All because you won't explain to the cop what the story is. You will not always understand why a cop questions you. He could be looking for someone who was reported for a completely DIFFERENT issue and you could wind up being implicated for something you don't know about because of the response that you plan. It is your life, and corrections buses are free.
Now that is what I call a proper response by the photographer. He is not initiating a confrontation, the police officer is. The officer probably has the rule on them anyway and can look it up for themselves. Unfortunately in this instance the officer would probably call for backup and have the "suspect" arrested. But the "suspect" could sue for false arrest as there is no law saying you have to surrender your ID to a police officer (unless you operate a motor vehicle).
The police officer's rule book DOES NOT have the sentence that says photography is legal. It's a big problem, but DON'T YOU FORGET THAT.
(insert joke about success of police chasing criminals after eating so many donuts here).
CG
Bad, bad Unca Selkirk ... seriously, had a LOT of buddies on the force when I lived in the city, even MORE since I moved upstate ... and the patrol book ONLY gets brought out before you call in supervision if it's something out of the ordinary and the suspect "knows his rights" ... so you look it up. Most routine things have happened for the umpteenth TIME in your face, so you're ready to quote 221.25 from rote.
Agreed though, that a DEFINITION of rule 1059 *NEEDS* to be DETERMINED and properly communicated to ALL parties ... and as much as I *loathe* the idea of yet another "study group" appointed by our adminiswigs, it's CERTAINLY time that THIS seventy-sixth street have it props delivered DIRECTLY by Geraldo on FOX5 ... ENOUGH of this back and forth NO DIALTONE ...
Doubt all you want, but we already had someone here post saying that the cop talking to him pulled out the rule book on the spot.
Hopefully, when Hollywood makes a movie about your life they'll keep it under 4 hours...
"But the "suspect" could sue for false arrest as there is no law saying you have to surrender your ID to a police officer (unless you operate a motor vehicle"
So now we see the true motivation. Sue the government and use the proceeds to get yourself out of Sea Cliff. That's just a joke, John. I know you're not looking to make money with this. You're just misguided.
Look at all the great acts of civil disobedience -- what did they have? First and foremost, they had numbers. Second they had publicity.
Going out and getting arrested for your cause while alone on the subway platform at Neck Road isn't going to do anything to advance your cause. It will, however, decrease your bank account and allow you to see parts of the city you haven't seen before.
CG
So how many Rosa Parks clones were there on that bus?
-Robert King
CG
Photography is legal according to rule 1059
Get your numbers right...
Haven't you ever heard of the Lee Havey Oswald Scenario? It usually seems that when cops get into physical confrontations with suspects, it's the cops who end up on the losing end.
The Scenario gets its name, by the way, from the circumstances surrounding Oswald's arrest following the JFK assassination. Three of the six cops who struggled with Oswald required medical treatment for injuries sustained. Oswald weighed all of 140 pounds and had no unarmed-combat training.
Are there not enough of you here with a common concern (employees and fans alike) who would like a final definitive answer from the authorities (NYPD & MTA) and involve the ACLU and/or local media into helping to force the NYPD/MTA for an answer one way or another?
This issue must be resolved. We can not allow the NYPD to enforce laws only they know about, while the general public go about their business under forced unwitting false pretenses.
It's the equivalent of the NYPD writing speeding tickets for traveling 20 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, with the DMV saying "If you don't speed you won't get a ticket".
:/
I agree, this is very disturbing.
Are there not enough of you here with a common concern (employees and fans alike) who would like a final definitive answer from the authorities (NYPD & MTA) and involve the ACLU and/or local media into helping to force the NYPD/MTA for an answer one way or another?
We know the final answer. A judge, some police, and the rules on the web all say photography is legal. It's not right that we have to be constantly harassed about it, but I'd rather not get the system so mad that they decide to actually ban photography (or make it law that you need a permit). For the time being I'd rather just sweat it out. Although I would like to see the NYPD get in trouble for having the wrong rules in their pocket.
Just don't forget that the general public has no idea there are fellow citizens taking pictures of the trains for fun. Most folk don't understand why anyone would want to. So I don't think there'd be much public sympathy for us.
As I'd said earlier, the issue isn't photography, the issue is dual contradictory copies of one law. Tit-for-tat on an internet message board isn't going to resolve the issue, and contrary to what some others have stated, the issue remains unresolved. If even one officer carries or contends that it is a violation to photograph the transit system without ancilary equipment, a bigger problem exists and must be addressed.
We don't arbitrarily take pen in hand and at One Police Plaza, edit legislation to suit the epic-de-jour.
Think of the freedom you had 10 years ago vs. the freedom you have today... Think of the personal freedom you had 20 years ago....
So to me it isn't just the restriction on photography on the subway - that is just the latest symptom of the growing cancer eating away slowly at our personal freedoms.... Yes this country still has POLITICAL freedom - you can vote for whomever you choose or tell the ruling party what you think of it. What we have lost with almost no objection is PERSONAL freedom... These days I value personal freedom more than political freedom - the way I am starting to feel is that you can take political freedom and shove it (the middle class gets the shaft no matter who wins anyway) - just give me back the right to drive without a seat belt (or any of the other personal freedoms we have lost)....
Do I agree with resisting a police officer - NO. On the other hand I feel that we cannot let any more of our personal freedoms erode. We may just wake up one day and find that we have none left.
Since when do you have to pay to look up at the sky?
That's a fee for parking, not to see fireworks. I have a friend in Massapequa who enjoys the Jones Beach fireworks from her own backyard, free of charge. I see the fireworks from Shea quite easily (or rather hear them while I'm trying to sleep) without having to buy a ticket for the Mets game.
John, this is probably way beyond your comprehension, but there are a lot of folks out there who don't like fireworks. In particular, I can think of a number of friends and relatives of mine who served in Viet Nam who associate the sounds of fireworks with the sounds of battle... and who still "take cover" when a whistling rocket arches skyward and explodes.
Many dog owners don't like fireworks near their homes, because it makes their dogs nervous and upset.
And people who actually work for a living, instead of sponging off those of us who do, also tend to dislike fireworks and other loud noises that occur when they are trying to get the sleep they need so they can do their job well. But again, that's something incredibly remote to your experience, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bravo. How long did it take for you to come up with that?
Why?
Because legal outlets sell legal fireworks, ones that comply with safety standards, and they do not sell the big ones that can really hurt people. It give people a slightly safer product, and keeps illegal providers out of the market, since prices for fireworks are rather small, all considered.
This being said however, even legal fireworks can be dangerous, and I would not like to contemplate the sorts of injuries that these 'legals' can cause in a city environment.
Elias
Two big faults with that reasoning:The vast majority of people who have illegal fireworks in states where they are illegal get them from states where they are legal. (Or from middlemen who gets them from states that are legal) So even illegal fireworks meet those states safety standards. You might as well make anything illegal (such as narcotics) legal as there would be better safety standards.No, sorry, your reasoning just doesn't wash.
*Don't take that as a precedent. I don't intend to defend John too often.
*Don't take that as a precedent. I don't intend to defend John too often.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Enough is enough. You are now the 2nd person that will be added to my killfile list.
Oh, for just five minutes alone with our politicos ... no witnesses ... agggh. :(
But yeah, New York ... another PERFECT example of GOP leadership ... and TRAIN schedules. Ain't been a democrap in a LONG time and yet the repubs have managed to give us the high el pillar SIDEWAYS. And to think! It was those "tax and spend liberals" they used to talk about. Look what's doing the booty bandit *NOW*??? :(
Care to cite a reference for that (false) statement?
"212,000 private sector positions in last two years tied to downtown, 9/11; some signs of resurgence" ... internet copy NOT available, but if you can find THAT Albany Times Union (we believe SO much in journalisjm, that htought we can't afford much ELSE, we SUPPORT our local newspaper, because as others here on sSubtalk can attest having read same, AIN'T a Murdoch newspaper or "news network."
HIGHLIGHTS of the article (GO FIND IT, TOP CHENEY SECRET or it would have BEEN ONLINE like MOST TU content) ... jobs in:
APPAREL -8900 in 2002, -5800 in 2003
AIRLINE -9800 in 2002, -4200 in 2003
TELECOM -9400 in 2002, -4700
WALL ST -25000 in 2002, -10900
Need I go on? It's all there ... GOP gonna buy you a new pair of shoes. Phuck! If the damned republicans would just PAY for the software they owe us PAYMENT for ... oh yeah, right ... I didn't pay Al D'Amato or Joe Bruno or Paturkey's "East Euro" mobsters their due ... of COURSE we can't expect a CHECK for what the state I call HOME has STOLEN from us. Nope. Phuck US ... Rush is right, republican theives are GLORIOUS! What *WAS* I thinking? Phuckers. THIEVES! :(
"but hey ... under Paturkey, D'Amato and Bruno, we've got the HIGHEST unemployment in the nation, and only getting WORSE with each passing DAY..."
Here's a URL you can check out:
"http://www.dol.state.nm.us/dol_surr.html"
New York currently has the 15th highest unemployment rate in the nation -- an improvement from being 14th one year ago. Of somewhat more importance is that NY's unemployment rate is now better than the national rate -- something which has been rather infrequent over the past 25 years. I wasn't able to uncover the time series of data for that period, but my recollection is that New York is rarely any better than about 15th or 20th in the ranking of states.
I find it somewhat disingenuous to try and blame unemployment or economic results on either party. There is a mix of historically Republican and Democrat dominated states at both the top and the bottom of the list.
Unemployment rates are not even throughout the state. As best I recall, the rate Upstate tracks the national average fairly closely, the rate in the suburbs is usually lower than the national average, and finally the NYC rate is almost always far in excess of the rates in the rest of the state and in the nation.
Last I heard, once an administration has been in power for more than four years, they own the results. :)
Most of the things you mentioned exemplify not so much a loss of freedom due to terrorist paranoia, but rather the extent to which we've become a "Nanny State," with the government trying to eliminate all risk from life through legislation. Now that's another interesting issue in and of itself, but it's not really relevant to the harassment of subway photographers.
Not true. A rationale for mandatory seatbelts (and motorcycle helmets) is that in many cases a person spends many years vegetating in a hospital with the taxpayers picking up the huge bill.
First of all, even if that was true, which I don't believe it is, it is only in a minority of cases where the taxpayers pick up the bill, namely through medicare & medicaid. The vast majority of accident victims get paid from insurance.
That being said, in the case of seatbelts, the morbid fact that a percentage of people not wearing seatbelts die from their accidents offsets the percentage of people who spend long periods of time in the hospital.
As far as motorcycle helmets are concerned, there are just as many statistics negating the value of helmets as there are statistics accentuating the positives of helmet use. There have been studies that show that helmets do not help much, and some helmets, such as the full face helmets that most Jap bike riders wear are actually more dangerous than not wearing any, such as heads snapping back and necks breaking.
You also have to factor in the fact that people who wear seatbelts or helmets tend to have a more false sense of security and tend to be subconsciencely more reckless than people who don't.
Much like our pal, John, except for the hospital, of course.
We'll see....
Go sit in a classroom, son.
First, you made it everyone's business when you told everyone here about it. If you wanted to keep it private you should have - well - kept it private.
Second - you made it our business because most of us pay for your lifestyle in the form of taxes.
Third - You rub our nose in it two to three time a week when you report on your carefree lifestyle where your toughest decision is which bus to take or where to stop for lunch.
I really don't give a flying F#@K what you dou or what your taste in women is. What bothers me is that you have your digital camera, your computer your 24/7 vacation and I'm paying for it. Rights, you don't need rights. Your friggin life is one big fu@#ing fantasy camp.
Have you ever checked out what public assistance pays for a single man without dependents? It's much more comfortable and pleasant to work for a living.
Do you also object to retired railfanners who use your hard-earned FICA payments to go railfanning?
Public assistance is way less than $900 per month.
Sometimes, sometimes not.
Make that ex-husband
AND where might that be?
Peace,
ANDEE
Keep up the good work, now stop bitching on this board.
Before I statred with my current job, there were times that I had to haul my ass out of bed at 4 AM, walk 3 1/2 blocks to the subway in a neighborhood that you wouldn't survive for 1/2 an hour. A one hour subway ride with skells who, like you, didn't want - oooh I'm sorry, couldn't work. And all for $12.00 an hour.
Let me tell you one thing you little PR!@#. I work. I take night classes. I pay my taxes. I obey the law. SO how am I what's wrong with this country - a$$ h0!e? It's malcontents like you that FU@# it up for the re$t of us.
U sure had no problem COMMUTING out to West Nyack or to Garden State..
If you can handle that long a commute, I'm sure you can handle
walking to a store and working, too!
I don't think the negative statements directed at you are mostly because you're unemployed and on home relief, but that you ride trains and buses in a carefree manner and report here about it daily.
If out of those seven days you applied yourself to do volunteer work, let's say two days a week in a hospital or library, then you would at least be "giving back" to the community. When you do find a job, report it here and those catcalls will cease.
Bill "Newkirk"
So, are you faulting the NYPD for just doing their jobs to protect this city? How is Homeland Security (or the lack of, at the airports) relevant to NYPD stopping and just questioning someone taking pictures. They still have to let you go if you can identify yourself and you tell them that the pictures are for your own use.
If that means arrest, then the police can look forward to getting sued. Its none of their damn business what I do as long as I'm on public property.
I do believe in photography in the subway system and public places in general; but if you are on a public sidewalk, do you accept someone taking pictures at a NYCT power plant or subway yard (other than trains, like the barn itself)? What about someone taking a picture at the extreme end of a subway tunnel? What about taking pictures at the Empire State Building at 3 AM and you live in NYC? Bet you condone this.
Passiveness is how Hitler got in power in Germany. Show Bush and Ashcroft that we will NOT be passive as they attempt to take away our freedoms and liberties.
Hitler got to power in Germany but the U.S. had no involvment until "..a day of infamy." happened on 12/7/1941. You cannot compare apples with oranges so why do you say that Bush and Ashcroft are passive. If anything, they were passive beacuse of 9/11 and they failed to detect the warning signs (look at Moussani, the 20th hijacker) but now they are taking action.
I follow American principles of freedom and liberty for all and will not obey the homeland security laws.
Good for you. That means I presume you will not consent to a baggage screening or search at JFK, EWR, or LGA and you will effectively shut down the entire airport because of your stupidity. And if I just happen to be one another flight affected by your nonsense, you sure will MORE than just p*** me off.
As far as tickets go, I will fight them if I get any. And if I lose they still wont get one cent from me. Instead they will get a class action lawsuit.
Class action lawsuit? Who will file during the open period? I'm sure you have the Dream Team representating you.
Photographing anything from a public sidewalk is perfectly legal. That said, NYCT doesn't have power plants anymore. True, some of the old plants still exist as Con Ed facilities; I've taken at least a dozen photos of the IRT powerhouse on 11 Ave. I fail to see photos of simple masonry structures in subway yards or of a concrete tunnel portal as a security risk. The Empire State Building looks the same at 3:00 AM as it does at 3:00 PM, when thousands of tourists are photographing it, only darker; the terrorists could save time by just buying a poster, anyway. I live in New Your City, and I condone all of the above.
I understand Qtraindash7's frustration on his legal right to photography, I just do not condone his right-wing methods to disobey (and disrespect) police officers when they stop and question him. On the NYTimes Ultimate Ride, R30 was stopped by an undercover officer at 7th Ave/9th st/Park Slope station. So R30 told the officer what he was doing and the officer went on, only to see the permit that Gena and her assistant had on that permitted them the filming. But everone affected DID comply and we continued on our trip.
If an arrest does take place, let it be for compliance and not stupidity. Remember anyone with no ID is AUTOMATICALLY hauled in for arrest or detainment. Refusing to provide ID or a reason why you are taking pictures is plain stupid, and Qtraindash7 advocates this.
There is no law to back that up. That kind of stuff is just the kind of thing that makes me steamed. Rules like that would definately be a big step toward a totalatarian regime.
I value my identity, and I feel having to show a cop it, just for taking a photo, is a VIOLATION of my personal freedom.
Almost forgot... that was Japan who attacked us.
Actually THAT could be a beautiful picture - it has artistic potential... You see this as a potentially suspicious activity - yet I immediatley thought of the artistic potential..
I DID NOT buy a camera for the purpose of taking pictures of my wife or her relatives... I spent a LOT of money on camera equipment for the sole purpose of taking pictures of trains, historical buildings, etc, therefore I can understand the frustration being felt by many here.
I have no problem with any of those acts. You're on a public street taking a photo. I dont care if its by a power plant, subway yard, or landmark, or if its at 3am. I would like to do some power plant photography, but of course, then that makes me a terrorist, right?
"So, are you faulting the NYPD for just doing their jobs to protect this city? "
No. I dont blame the police officers. I actually feel bad for them. You think they enjoy taking part in a witchunt? As I think most police officers think, they'd rather be out there catching real criminals than sitting at the end of a tunnel all day looking for a "terrorist".
Thats why I wouldnt be mean to a police officer if they questioned me. That would be like being mean to a bus driver because the route is bad. I simply would briefly explain I am taking a photo because I am a railfan. But I feel giving them an ID is a violation of MY rights.
"Good for you. That means I presume you will not consent to a baggage screening or search at JFK, EWR, or LGA and you will effectively shut down the entire airport because of your stupidity. And if I just happen to be one another flight affected by your nonsense, you sure will MORE than just p*** me off. "
No, I would cooperate with baggage screeenings. Because they DO serve a purpose to protect the passengers from on board weapons being brought on the plane. I dont mind baggage screenings at buildings either. I dont make a fuss at all about it, I dont mind it because this actually does help keep a place safe by KEEPING DANGEROUS WEAPONS OUT.
Taking photos harms no one. And in many cases, I'd wish I would have had my camera on me to help catch someone doing a criminal act (I've been witness to several hit and runs but did not have my camera on me)
Today I visited a friend who works in the court system and had to go through a screening. You just walk through a metal detector they X-ray your bag and they dont ask you a million questions just what business you need to do.
Now in 1251 6th they require an ID to visit an office. And they will only accept one from the DMV or a passport (guess I wont be visiting anyone THERE) Excessive, definately. Let them just screen baggage. But that is a privately owned office building, so they have every right to enforce their own rules. They have the right to ban photography and the right not to let you in. Just like I have the right to do business elsewhere.
I DO BELIEVE IN SECURITY. I do think metal detectors and X-ray machines should be required in all major office buildings and government institutions. Because they do keep people from bringing in weapons.
But I dont see how hassling photographers constitutes any security at all. Terrorists already have photos of these kinds of things. Questioning people taking photos is like going on a witchunt.
:0)
I'm sure the exercise may not to be his liking. Like being shoved up against a concrete wall with all the Bloods taking turns making mincemeat of him.
:0)
Yet why is it when others critize ye, you think we're being funny.
And I don't just mean the GP38-2, I did it countless times, and never even though about the fact that I would be bothered. However, I do not have a problem with being questioned. If that's what they feel they must do, so be it. I would just be polite.
I read the whole list of rules and regulations for using Penn Station that is posted a few walls. It doesn't say anything about photography.
I was there the other week taking photos of the SMEE train headed to Times Square. I was there for over an hour, on a weekend when no trains are running...
I was also there the previous day during rush hour.
I was there the other week taking photos of the SMEE train headed to Times Square. I was there for over an hour, on a weekend when no trains are running...
I was also there the previous day during rush hour.
Shhhh... :)
Of course it depends on one thing.
How good is the resolution of the pictures taken by those new cell phones that double as digital cameras?
If the resolution is good, you can be taking a picture but it looks like you are really making a phone call. In that way, you are not calling any attention to yourself.
Just an idea or maybe a suggestion. Any thoughts on this?
Easy to go check..... but to save you the effort the best I've seen is only 640x480. (0.3 megapixel)
--Mark
Not good at all. Awful. Just awful. I gave this sort of thing a try with a Palm Zire 71 and the results were awful. Here are some examples: everything from the third photo on this page through the end of the album.
Be friendly and cooperative to them, and they will return the favor. Be snarlly, and they will find cause to bust you.
Elias
Not quite. If the officer has reasonable cause to give you a summons, and you fail to identify yourself, you can be detained until your identity is verified. If the officer has no reasonable cause to give you a summons, your failure to identify yourself is NOT a cause for detention and can result in a valid false arrest suit.
Thank God !
My handle, JJ .... no it's Mr t
BTW, Saw your photo at the Riverhead event.
Check it out, this link will work until they put next weeks article in it's spot, after that you will have to go to the mainsite and see it in the "Our Neighborhood" archives.
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/OURNEIGH.html
That was a particularly good article about one of my favorite el lines.
It must have been quite the trip before 1944!
It is a darn shame that Daddy's Train wasn't really a movie. It would truly be a classic today!
I have yet to ride the current El, but I would like to soon.
It's also all too true what you say about getting from one side of Brooklyn to the other by subway most easily by going into Manhattan and coming back into Brooklyn, despite the G line. I've experienced this many times riding from Ridgewood to Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach. Once, in June 1981, I got sick of the idea of riding into Manhattan and back into Brooklyn, and met a date in Sheepshead Bay by taking the L to Rockaway Parkway and then taking a bus. I had to walk a mile at the end, but the bus ride was pleasant and went by Midwood High School, among other interesting places.
Another shortcut - this one to midtown Manhattan - was lost when the Rockaway Beach Branch of the LIRR stopped operating between Penn Station and Ozone Park on June 8, 1962. Herbert George, author of "Change At Ozone Park", an excellent book about the Rockaway Beach Branch, mentions in this book, getting from Parkside station on this line in Forest Hills to midtown in 20 to 25 minutes. I've read that Mae West once did the same from Brooklyn Manor station on Jamaica Avenue on the Woodhaven-Richmond Hill border.
By the way, just some trivia. Did you know that Mae West is buried in the Mausoleum in Cypress Hills Cemetery (not the one you can see from the Interboro, the one closer to the Glendale side)? One Sunday in the 80's I went there, and there was a caretaker there that showed us her crypt. I don't know if the mausoleum is still open on weekends like it used to be back then.
No, I didn't know Mae West was buried in Cypress Hills Cemetery. Makes sense, though, if she once lived in Brooklyn Manor. I have been told that the escape artist Houdini is buried in Cypress Hills Cemetery also.
Actually Houdini is in the Jewish Cemetery on the other side of Cypress Hills Street. I forgot which entrance it is at, but it is right near the gates when you come in, and says, "Weiss", which was his real last name. It's a family plot.
I remember his original last name of Weiss now that you mention it. I read that he took his stage name from Robert Houdin, a 17th or 18th century French magician.
Unless, of course, he's escaped.
Or did the job pick you?
Do you think that if there were enough demand, money in the Capital Plan, and a plan to extend a new Myrtle Av line (underground, say, with ADA stations) to downtown Brooklyn, that people would support it? Or would NIMBYs get in the way?
If you can get enough politicians behind it, who knows?
On the afternoon of Easter Saturday 1980 (April 5th), during and because of the transit strike, I walked from my Ridgewood home, west to and over the Willy B and downtown to 26 Federal Plaza, then back to Ridgewood over the Brooklyn Bridge and then dead east all the way on Myrtle Avenue from Jay Street to Cypress Avenue. I remember vacant lots but also many stores and apartment projects with big parking lots.
Bed-Stuy could still have been a vibrant neighborhood when the G was being built, but I understand it began its decline with the stock market crash of 1929, and the Depression, which wiped out the wealth of many affluent homeowners there. My father worked for the National Biscuit Company at Pacific Street and Classon Avenue in 1941, commuting from Bushwick (Rockaway Avenue) on the Fulton St. subway to Franklin Avenue. He says the neighborhood then wasn't bad but one still had to be alert and look tough.
On the upswing, I believe.
I agree, however we are talking about the 60's and 70's, and the generation that destroyed Penn Station. If that crossroads would have happened now and not 1969, they are so good now at making things look "retro",
At Myrtle-Broadway on the J line, they even put up "retro" lights, that although taller than the originals, copy the originals:
I don't know when the Metropolitan Depot building in the photo was replaced but when I started riding from Metropolitan to Navy St. to HS in 1968, there was an old wooden building in the same location that looked different. The present brick station house and concrete platform was built after the 1976 fire.
Quite an interesting thought. Do you mean the block after block, mass construction, circa WW I, of the blond and light orange brick two, three and six-family houses that account for most of Ridgewood's (and Glendale's) housing ?
That would be an interesting study : Ridgewood pre and post Myrtle Avenue el extension from Wyckoff to Metropolitan Avenue. On the Geological Survey map of Brooklyn dated about 1890 and available on this site, once can see Bushwick already densely and almost completely developed with row houses, with mostly only sparse and scattered houses in what is now Ridgewood and Glendale. I remember a photo of Kreuscher's Market at Myrtle and Cypress Avenues dated 1903, published by the Times Newsweekly in the fall of 1993, and that area looking so different from how it does now.
The block I grew up on, just west of the Metropolitan Ave. station, was built in the early 1920s as a result of the "Lutheran Cemetary Extension" of the el to Metropolitan.
Bushwick Avenue is a great Brooklyn street. It does boggle the mind that it once was a "high-toned" boulevard. There is an amazing variety of architecture along it. There is no logic in the world. Bushwick Avenue should be one of New Yorks' premiere streets. The reality should be: "Whyinhell should I go out to Long Island when I can live along this fine corridor?" What the hell is wrong with people that they would let Bushwick Avenue go to pot? People suck.
Sorry...
Well, things are starting to look up, although there's a long way to go before Bushwick Avenue would become a premiere street. At least the trends are favorable.
A major geopolitical shock that causes a huge increase in gasoline prices, for example the conquest of Saudi Arabia by Islamic fundamentalists, might lead to a major push toward urban living with its availability of transit. Something like that might make places like Bushwick Avenue highly desirable. Which isn't to say that an event of this sort would be good, given the huge consequences it would have for the nation's and world's economy.
Speaking of Islamic fundamentalists, albeit on a smaller scale, there is the Ansaru Allah (Black Muslim) community on the northwest wide of Bushwick Avenue just northwest of Myrtle Avenue.
Bushwick Avenue was once indeed a grand and glorious Brooklyn street, with offices of physicians, lawyers, auto showrooms, and steepled and spired mansions built by 19th century beer barons. Trommer's Beer Garden was located at Bushwick Avenue and Conway Street near Bway Junction.
A June 28 2003 NY Times article, "Something's Brewing in Bushwick", details the housing constructed from the former Rheingold Brewery near Bway-Myrtle. The RKO Bushwick Theater at Bway and Howard Avenue
is currently under renovation, perhaps to residential apartments. "GP 38 Chris" may have some more details on it.
So that's what going on there. On a passing (J) train, I also noticed that the original ornate facade was cleaned up too. Passing this theatre in the past you could see the destruction inside and figure had to be a "shooting gallery" also. Good to see the old building coming back to life instead of being demolished.
Bill "Newkirk"
Petula Clark's "Don't sleep in the subway" !
Bill "Newkirk"
Playing music in the subway is illegal and no permits are given out but people do it in certain places (i.e. Friendship Heights rotunda) anyway. Permits may be issued eventually.
My oh my, what is the world coming to?
It feels weird to be waiting for a train and instead you think you're in Macy's.
-Robert King
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, I guess that depressing PC black was a death sentence to any engine. The Amtrak "bloody nose" scheme was also dubbed "W.C.Fields". I heard the term G motor once, though not a popular moniker. Ever hear the nickname for the E-60, "The Flying Shoebox" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Personaly I prefer The Brunswick Green over the Tusken Red.
I was A Union Station in Washington DC when 4935 was rededacated.
I watched Raymond Loewy sign his name to the locomotive.
John
If you want to see it, it's here
That’s TUSCAN Red, named after the province of Tuscany in Italy. "Tusken" means something that has tusks (remember the Tusken Raiders from Star Wars?) ;-)
Please excuse my spelling error. I was using one of my computers that did not have a word processor with spell check installed.
John
No, I remember the SAND PEOPLE.
It was the sand people that kidnapped Anakin Skywalker's mother, it was the sand people that Anakin killed in revenge.
They were referred to as “Tusken Raiders” in the books, the toys, the posters, and even in the Episode I movie. The term goes way back to the 1970s when the first movie came out—that is where I rememeber it from.
Thanks for bringing this back on-topic :) He designed the R-40 slant. And did a superb job with it.
Everything in Phase V, especially the new Shamu the newest Pax Logs (P42s) which eliminate the red from the scheme (how can the National Railroad Passenger Corp eliminate one of the colors of our flag, when it has always been there?), should join the redbirds on the bottom of the Atlantic, or the Pacific, or the Gulf of Mexico, hell even the great lakes, just whatever's closest! Why GE even thought they could make a diesel passenger engine with their slow-loading 4 stroke engines is beyond me, but the sad thing is Amtrak fell for it! Just like Acela, the manufacturer actually told Amtrak what it needed, and Amtrak friggin listened!
Here's hoping that the PL42AC is a success with it's EMD 710 heart, perhaps then Amtrak will be able to avert having an all-P42 diesel fleet and get something with some acceleration for the short haul stuff. Course if Amtrak also goes for the ALP46 (AEM8?) to supplement the quite clearly failed Acela and HHP-8 project, then we'll all have to have a good laugh at the 'lowly' State of New Jersey setting the trend in rail travel elsewhere in the country!
What, I can dream can't I?
Just like Acela, the manufacturer actually told Amtrak what it needed
What evidence do you have of this? Was it not Amtrak that kept telling BBD to change the specifications?
It ain't all that bad. Maybe with the Phase V scheme applied to a P-5 or K-4 would be a little over the top !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, but I'd take a K-4 in Phase V over a P42 ANY DAY!
Hey, that would be cool. Because secret employee rides can lead to secret employee's friends rides.
Although some sources say 8000hp.
What's that about 100mph? Max speed? Design speed? What about the ALP-46's that are hauling the clockers? Are they allowed to do 125mph?
Acela 4935
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Linking directly to the image on the Railroad Paint Shop site is prohibited.
I apologize for the sloppy work...I did it quickly!
Don't got AIM? go to www.aim.com (excuse the lack of HTML, but it's not War and Peace you're copying!)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Print was sharp and in BETTER condition than the one which was shown
in August 2001....
Found a writeup outfront which was a NYTimes Article dated 8/31/2003
on the film.... should be something to look up in archives of NYT.
Thanks again all!
Something along those lines...
I think they should have asked for a million dollars at three-fifteen and, if the ransom came a minute late, they WOULDN'T shoot the two little kids.
I have no idea what you mean, but I found it highly unrealistic that those two kids, who weren't even tall enough to see out the railfan window, would show their excitement for the first 10 minutes of the film by constantly jumping up and down at the railfan window. I think they would have realized they couldn't see anything and would have moved on to some other activity.
Unca Selkirk sez "up yer meds" ... lest you turn out like ME.
That's not a BAD thing, is it? 0 :)
Thank you! I kept thinking of "Carrie," but she is just a human killer.
At least it was a different link!
The Killer Truck Films
Maximum Overdrive http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091499/
Trucks http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120380/
Both From The Same Stephen King Short Story "Trucks"
FWIW, the 8/31 review was there last Friday night, 8/29 :)
Did Union Square sb 6 platform have a scrolling text sign
over the LENGTH of the trackbed??
Check the movie.
When PELHAM barrels into Union Square sb, good heavens, I spied an LCD-like
sign ON THE FLOOR OF THE OVERPASS MEZZANINE which scrolled text
over the ENTIRE length of the sb trackbed..
Today, these signs wear "Stand Clear of the Platform Edge" and are relatively PETITE in size.
Check the movie.
The LONNNNG signs hanging from the mezzanine over the tracks I don't seem to recall existing....
In 1973? Amigito, your mom would've had to hold you up and pull the pacifier out of your mouth for you to notice.
I was born 77. While I do have vivid and detailed memoirs of subway
existence in the early 1980's, I was implying that I don't ever
recall seeing such a sign in any station... or a sign of THAT size.
Moreover, a reason to check the VHS frame by frame...
Jimmy
Definitely wanna pull out the VHS and hit slo-mo.
I coulda swore the screen had an LCD sign on the mezz which ran
the length of the sb 6 trackbed... NEVER seen that!!
Wish yous guys were here!!!
(Oh and when I get back I've got the excitement of putting down a wodge of money on a flat and getting the keys!)
A SAFE Trip, too!
The A route continues going away from the direction Fulton St is going. It goes under the east end of BMT's E.N.Y. yard. Maybe goes behind the Jamaica Depot entrance as it goes into Pennsylvania Ave to the next stop at Liberty Avenue.
No need for the NYCT map to show it - it's not relevant to their purpose.
I know that this might be dreaming a bit, but does anyone know if the 7 extension study include any possibility of perhaps re-opening and using the High-Line's existing EL structure at all?
Stego
The day that happens, all NIMBY's drop dead and Robert Moses comes back to life.
Mark
I think they are looking at connecting the north end of the "walking" High Line with the south end of the Javits Flushing extension.
My #7 preference is for it to run down 10th Avenue from 41 to 14 St, then over to 8th Ave to connect with the L. The hardest part is probably getting it past the Lincoln Tunnel entrance.
--Z--
--Z--
Fran
Two tracks wide.
Maybe there could ultimately be two spurs, one for Queens expresses and one for Queens locals.
The current 7 terminal is at 41 St/8th Av. The subway is to continue west to a new station at 41 St/10th Avenue. The line would curve southward and continue under 11th Avenue to 33rd Street, where the new Javits terminal would be located. Naturally, both new stations will be ADA compliant.
Look at page 19 of the Scoping Document (this defines what the DEIS will cover).
http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/7ext/draft_scoping.pdf
N Bwy
I have only had a short time to look at it but the only change I see so far is the ad for the exhibition at the TM store being replaced by an ad fro the reopening of the TM itself. It has a coupon for one free admission to the Museum (good from 9/16 to 13/31/2003) which must be surrendered at the time of visit (I hate to see a subway map cut up like that but such is life).
Just to note: The TM sotre in GCT still has the May edition. I got the September issue from the Information Booth in the main Terminal area.
Must be a typo, unless the Powers that Be have decided that this year would have 13 months. :-)
It should be 12/31/2003.
Peace,
ANDEE
Checkuary, n.:
The thirteenth month of the year. Begins New Year's Day and
ends when a person stops absentmindedly writing the old year on his
checks.
TOO DAMNED EARLY ... go to your ROOM! :)
If we don't bring you up a cup of milk at night,
Wells... You can always pull up a cow to your window
for a nice warm cup of Milk, brah.
The Hebrew Calendar has a 13th month every 2-3 years: Adar B (or Adar A, depending on how you look at it).
Normally (from the Bronx)I switch over to the BMT at 59th to get me over to 34th to pick up PATH, but today I had an early meeting in Manhattan so I had some extra time and walked around GCT. Sometimes if the weather is nice in the afternoon on the way home I will walk from 34th St up to GCT and pick up the Lex rather than N, R or W it to 59th for the Lex.
Walking in the main terminal I generally walk by the info booth to see what map they have because I have seen in the past that sometimes the booth has the latest one and as in this case the TMS had the previous one.
I have gotten the impression that the TMS likes to (or has to)use up as much of the supply of last issue of map they have before putting out the newer ones.
When I worked in the JPM Chase building at 4 MetroTech in Brooklyn (1992-1996) I visited the TA Information Center at 370 Jay often to see if anything was new. By the same token I also went to the Museum once a week during lunch just to say hi. I also did some of the signwork for the Museum store when it was located inside the exhibit area.
I would attend were it not for the lousy Smarch weather.
At least he ain't collecting 300 or so SOBIG viruses per night. :)
What's even MORE annoying though is what DOES get past our spitoon - all those antiviruses out there proudly sending me MORE copies of the damned thing like a cat dropping a mouse at your feet, "look at what I collected, daddy" ... agggh ... I wanna SUE McAfee ...
Anyhoo, don't COUNT on them coming from someone on subtalk per se ... a couple of viruses that circulated previously to folks on the subtalk list ended up NOT originating from someone here, but rather another place that some of us visit ...
No it wasn't me.
I just wish I could bill Microsoft for all the things I have to rummage through and delete from the mail server. Agggh. Can't just wipe it, gotta see if it's really a customer saying "Thank you" or "my details" or "that movie." If Microsoft had to pay us for damages, you can bet it'd get fixed.
Must be my circle of friends ?
Plus everyone already knows that I'm "SoBig"
I feel for your pain, my friend !
If you're REALLY feeling neglected, I could send ya some. Heh.
Nothing. Nada. Zip.
Not one e-mail with any of the "goodies" has arrived in my inbox.
Every piece of mail is scanned for viruses, worms and what-have-you before it ever hits my e-mail client, plus my ISP is very pro-active on the virus/worm front.
I'm not complacient. I keep my virus protection as up-to-date as I can and my anti-spam program gets the same treatment.
It's all how pro-active you are on the virus/worm fight that's important.
The goof-balls that keep creating this stuff will eventually add the MAC world and Linux to their hit lists, so be warned.
That'll be my last for this thread - don't wanna honk off Unca Dave.
Well, it is a RAPIDly spreading virus ;-)
And you are TRACKing it ;-)
But you are right it's off topic.
It was a labor of love though, as was mine that day.
TOY ONES???
C'mon now, toy trains are what one runs in the basement on top of a board, or maybe even those miniature steamers out in Shirley, but B.E.R.A. is far from being "toys"!!! As far as I know, every car there ran on the real road. Hell, when I was operating on Sunday, the only cars running that day were two cars that actually ran on the exact same right of way, 1602 & 775. So, please Kev, don't call B.E.R.A. toys, or I'll say that the Bruno Stadium in Albany is another Shea!!!
What I meant was "toy railroad" and I meant it in a LOVING way. But let's be real, ain't got a CPW dash, ain't got four tracks and the trains ARE a bit short compared to NYCTA. I've heard lots of people gripe about that. Me? I DO miss a ten car train of arnines ... it'd SURE be a lot of fun to watch the "guest operators" try to control one of THOSE. Heh. You really can't get into much trouble with just one car ... ain't like the slack action of ten of them, some with motors, some with brakes, it was "anything can happen day" at each application of the handle at a station stop. I'm sure there's a few old timers here who could tell ya what it was like.
And lookie here, wisebutt ... heh ... "Bruno's p*nis on the Hudson" is *NOT* Shea ... never was, never could be ... you've got to go to JOE BRUNO STADIUM which is hell and GONE from the tracks. And yeah, CHEAP BEER at taxpayer expense served at every game of the "Valley Cats" ... and check out who Joe Bruno got as a major league sponsor for his team ... heh:
http://www.tcvalleycats.com/main.php3
"One party, under Texas, with liberty and justice for Enron." :)
That is very true, but as I said, we do run cars that ran on that exact ROW, how much more realistic can it be?
I sure hope nobody thinks I'm *denigrating* Branford ... and it was there that I finally encountered for the first time as an adult the JOY of trolleys ... but I'm one of those awful rabid-transit types who WORKED the subways and I really DO miss running ten car sets of Arnines and 32's and such. Hell, even the TRANSIT museum can only come up with FOUR ... but a ten-pack of Arnines ... well, you had your hands full, literally and I'd LOVE to do THAT again. We gotta but some steel, some cement and put in a TUNNEL so's folks can REALLY hear the oldies for what they REALLY sounded like in the subways. Sound bouncing off trees and weeds doesn't really do it. Heh.
But yeah, down your way is about as real as it gets ... and it ain't like the TA's going to be giving me any handle time again. :(
The MIS guy opened one that got thru & the virus checker grabbed it so we could delete it. (as he opened it, I thought to myself "why don't you do that on YOUR machine !)
Peace,
ANDEE
He had an attitude about it often, but I can understand having an attitude when you actually know something.
I've met the Train Dude once at Coney Island, we were both there the day of a Rodeo, I was a guest of a friend.
some of us know enough about him not to bid on a job in his crew :-(
A $5 lifetime photo pass in the MTA, this pass would allow fans to take unlimited pictures, except the basic pass would only allow photos, that are not using tripods and no flash in the subway.
A $25 life time photo enhance pass would allow the use of tripods and flash (not infront of a driver) to take photos anywhere in the system.
The photo pass would have an ID # and a photo of you.
This Works because
1. The MTA makes money,
2. The photo pass is when a cop asks, the person has to show the photo card, no rules, no flimsy papers, just the card
3. The Enhanced Card would allow hardcore subway photographers to take their perfect photos, no matter what time or where, within respect to the drivers and operation of the MTA.
I think it would work, I would pay $5 to ensure I can take photos, and not be hassled by the cops and it's cheap.
MTA and/or NYPD seem to have some concern that people could be taking pictures for the purposes of planning or carrying out a terrorist attack. Valid or not, these concerns are what is creating the difficulty for railfan photographers.
Your proposal doesn't address the concerns of the MTA and/or NYPD other than to allow the hypothetical terrorist the ability to take pictures for a fee of $5. In fact, for $25 it allows them access that they have never enjoyed.
Finally, don't confuse making revenue with making money. This proposal has costs for the MTA which would likely far outstrip revenue. Somebody has to take the pictures, maintain the database, print and distribute the forms. The cards themselves would cost money. All for a measly $5 from maybe a few hundred railfans.
CG
end of tirade
--Z--
--Z--
It doesn't solve the problem that they say exists (forget that it doesn't need to, since no such problem exists).It's red tape for red tape's sake. The way you present it, it sounds like passes are free for the asking (and $5). Why not just make them free, and eliminate the "asking" requirement? Everyone gets an implied license to photograph - much like the regulations already provide today."Lifetime" isn't nearly as binding as you seem to think, or at least it wouldn't be for the purposes of any pass that they would offer.They make money? With your numbers, it sounds like it would barely bring in enough money to pay for the program. Bring them more in line with reality, and you've once again got a serious civil liberty question on your hands."When a cop asks, the person has to show the photo card, no rules, no flimsy papers, just the card": Better yet, how about this: they shouldn't attempt to enforce nonexistent regulations. No flimsy papers OR cards that way.What all of you self-described railfan photographers seem to forget is that plenty of other people want to take pictures in the system too - snapshots of "my visit to New York" (we all know that the subway is a major attraction) or even a local taking a picture of a friend making an odd face, circumstancially while on the subway. Should they need passes too? Should they have to pay for the privilege?
Mark
The polarized film in the cab door would be replaced by a completely opaque shutter which would be opened once a person swipes their Railfan MetroCard.
Oh please. You and I both know there are people on this board who would mortgage their houses for that.
At least $1,000.00 I'd say. $1,500 and they install a folding RFW seat for you.
Actually, PATCO's Vickers cars have that. You sit facing forward and look right through the window.
Hahahahahahahahaha...
Maybe you should stick a zero or two on the end of that... :(
If such a system were implemented (it does make sense), $5 would more likely get you a month-long pass, or a year at best...but lifetime, I doubt it.
Also spotted a five-car Rmadillo consist (6325-6321 ?) sitting on the track
leading from the 1 el down to the yard...
Sorry, my terminology is OFF after being ruffled panoramically by Mr. Blue.
First thing I noticed was spaces between cars (the slanted ends) which
made me look closer... which then revealed being 6 to 8 cars altogether..
The (grated silver) siding panels and large (WF-like) panoramic center windows helped me ID the cartype even more...
I might be off a bit, but those cars sure -WERE NOT- Red.
Oh yeah? Then explain what happened with the redbirds, ML vs. WF!
Right now it's easy. Put the R-33ML's back into service on the 4, bump all the remaining R-62's from the 4 to the 3, bump all the remaining R-62A's from the 3 to the 7, bump all the remaining R-36's to the ocean.
Starting from scratch it's not much harder. If the first batch of R-142's were placed on the 4 rather than on the 2, then the R-62's could have been shipped off to the 3 right away (even before retiring the 4's R-33's -- since shipping off its R-62's would have led directly to the more pressing R-36 retirement). Everything would have ended up the same, but the sequence of events would have been different. Right now we'd be waiting for those last few R-142's to enter service on the 2.
(Alternatively, put the first R-142's on the 3 instead of the 4 and send the R-62A's directly to the 7. The 4 would keep its R-62 fleet permanently. That's what was supposed to happen in the end at first, anyway.)
Then looking back down from the side view, I saw the cars were connected, I was able to safely conclude
those were slants (and what I'd seen was the roof-point where it slants downward)..
Some had interior lights on, some without.. and those without had
one SINGLE door (not a pair) which had been left open in a crooked
position (not vertical as it would if opened normally)..
Sure weren't redbirds....
(Tho it was a relief to see something OTHER THAN Redbirds on those tracks).
:)
But the Big Dig, over-budget though it was, was well-conceived and is now bearing fruit:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/03/business/03BOST.html?8hpib
or Link here.
--Z--
http://btw.klarkkent.de/nyc/starter.htm
Heh; same as I did in #39, just a bit neater :)
Jimmy
Jimmy
Please be mindful of the gap between the platform edge and the train...
The sweet sound is music to my ears!
Violin acceleration
The railroad gods were angry my friend. To quote George Costanza from TV’s Seinfeld, “Like and old man trying to send back soup in a deli.” Their mood was foul and their antics sinister. They fired poison darts and lightning bolts at us. Despite our most valiant efforts to overcome them, our powers of goodness were simply no match for their evil and wicked ways. Join me now as I recount the events of this day.
It was Monday, August 25th, 2003. The day was hot and steamy; a really typical late summer day in the Great Lakes region of the Midwest. It was the kind of day befitting of marking off sick and then heading off to either the Indiana or Michigan Dunes State Parks, relaxing on the beach and swimming in Lake Michigan. It was not the kind of day where you would want to be sitting in the cab of a locomotive where the temperatures are well in excess of 100° F; unless of course, you are insane.
We were heading south on train 336 this day. We had engines IC 6105 and 6204 with 146 cars. The train was not built for optimum train handling though as we had a large block of empties on the head end then a block of loads, then another big block of empties followed by another block of loads. This second block of loads was loaded with a bunch of heavies as it was mostly loads of meal. This was one of those character builder type trains; the kind that keeps you on your toes as you concentrate on keeping the thing together. There was an excessive amount of slack action going on as we rolled along. I did manage to keep it all in one piece the entire way, so at least I defended us from the antics of the railroad gods on this point.
As we were rolling across the Ludlow defect detector at milepost 106.2, the Control Display Unit (CDU) which is the head end box of my end of train telemetry system suddenly chirped out the familiar rapid succession of five beeps. This usually indicates an emergency application of the brakes has occurred. A quick glance at the display screen showed the air pressure reading “00” which means there is no air on the tail end. I quickly dropped the throttle from run 8 to run 1 and waited. During the wait I could feel the slack in the train changing. After a good five seconds the emergency application finally reached the engines.
Remember how I earlier described the train being made up with all those empties ahead of all those loads? This is where train make up quickly becomes a strategic factor. The empties are slowing down rapidly while all those loads are not. Oh they are slowing down, but at a lesser rate as there is all that weight to overcome. At 44 MPH, this is the kind of stuff derailments are made of. Our speed is dropping towards zero, but not evenly. Those loads shoving against the empties can cause severe buff force which, under the right circumstances, can jackknife cars causing to a derailment.
I knew it was coming and was prepared for the slack to run in against us. Sure enough, we got smacked as all those loads came crashing in. Here’s hoping that everything is on the rail and we are still on one piece. I was attempting to control the run in of slack by keeping minimal pressure on the locomotive brakes so that they didn’t slow down too soon to create even more buff force against the train while at the same time, keeping the engines from actually running out from the train which can cause a train separation, commonly referred to as a break in two, from happening. And while all this was occurring, I was also sticking my head out the window and looking back at the train for signs of dust flying or perhaps even the sight of a car derailed. There was nothing visible for the distance I could see, so that was a pretty good sign anyway.
“I see nothing!”
Once stopped, I recovered the emergency application and sent the air back to the train. After five minutes we still had no air coming on the tail end. So my conductor had to head back and start inspecting the train looking for some sort of problem. As it would happen today, I have the world’s slowest human being for a Conductor. I’m not going to say he creeps along, but snails and turtles have been known to pass him on his strolls. This walk might take awhile.
I reported our problem to the Desk Two Dispatcher. I also told him that we had come to a stop on the defect detector. Sixty-nine of our total of 596 axles did not receive a proper inspection so we would need to physically inspect the rear eighteen cars of the train once we got our problem found and corrected. Our Desk Two du jour, Jim Morrisey told me that he had already called Champaign Yard and a Car Inspector would be coming out to assist us.
The Conductor found the problem between the ninety-third and ninety-fourth cars; the air hoses between them had parted. About this time I heard from our old pal General Equipment Foreman Ed Karlin who was en route to assist along with one of the Car Inspectors from Champaign. Ed was out and about and when he learned of our plight, headed our way. The Carman would meet up with Ed and us.
My Conductor took care of the air hoses and we now had air pumping all the way through the train. My CDU indicated that air pressure was being restored on the tail end of the train. This is a good sign; it means the rest of the train is in one piece anyway. Ed and the Carman would inspect both sides of the rest of our train as we departed. A kind soul from Paxton named Charles Werner heard our plight and headed out to lend a hand. He picked up the Conductor and drove him into the town of Ludlow which was about half a mile from where I was stopped. I would be able to pick him up there as we got rolling again. I have made arrangements for Mr. Werner to get a CN Midwest Division timetable for his efforts.
Once I built up enough brake pipe air pressure, I started heading south at a slow rate of speed so that Ed and Robin the Carman could give us a good looking over. They were waiting at Ludlow where I picked up the Conductor. They had to stop us several times to knock off a total of five hand brakes and remake an air hose that appeared about ready to come apart.
We were informed that we would be swapping trains at Rantoul instead of going all the way to Champaign. We would get train 343 there and head back towards Markham. We affected the swap with the crew that brought the train out from Champaign and started our trip north. We had the IC 1001 and IC 1039 with 40 loads, 85 empties, 7900 tons and 7521 feet.
Things went along pretty good for the trip back. It was a good running train that also handled well. We knew we likely would not make it back to Markham alive. We were getting long in the tooth and were like salmon swimming upstream. The southbound fleet would be coming at us and we would be facing several meets. We were discussing the opposition coming at us and also the fact that Amtrak 392 would be closing in behind us figuring they would be looking to get him around us somewhere. So now it was speculation as to how far north we would make it before the sand in the hours of service glass would run out.
Little did we know the railroad gods were not yet finished with us this day.
Between Buckley and Del Ray I noticed a slight drop in brake pipe pressure on the tail end of the train as indicated by my CDU. This is not uncommon as sometimes, even when not using the air, you will get mild fluctuations in your reading. Block signal 90.2 came into view as I rounded the curve north of Buckley and I could see an approach diverging (yellow over green) indication which told me we would be diverging onto track two at Del Ray. As I approached the defect detector at milepost 89.7, known as the Del Ray Detector, I was beginning to slow the train with the dynamic brakes. I had to reduce the speed from 60 to 40 MPH, the prescribed speed through the turnout at Del Ray. As the slack was bunching up in the train, I observed the brake pipe pressure beginning to drop rapidly on my CDU. The train didn’t go into emergency, but the pressure was dropping at a rate higher than a service reduction as if I had set the air. This is not good. I could now feel the air brakes of the train beginning to take hold and combined with the dynamic brakes, the train was rapidly loosing speed.
Now, best I could hope for was to get stopped before reaching the Del Ray Detector. Don’t need a repeat of having to get a physical roll by inspection of the train here, especially with the fleet coming at us. I managed to bring the train to a stop about a quarter mile short of the detector. This my friends, was some of the best luck we would have for the rest of the evening.
I could hear those railroad gods beginning their mischievous and sinister laugh. You know that laugh, only audible to Locomotive Engineers and dogs.
Once stopped, the air began to rise a bit, but then it seemed to reach a plateau at 50 PSI. So once again, the world’s slowest human being had to begin to walk the train at his leisurely gait and ascertain and hopefully, correct the air problem. I again contacted Jimmy Morrisey at Desk Two and explained our dilemma. He was thrilled.
A problem is found and the Conductor tells me we had a gasket blow out from in between two hoses. A gasket blow out? This is highly unlikely as the hoses are held very tightly together and in twenty-five years of railroading, I have never had a gasket blow out from in between hoses that were made. I’ve had numerous other problems with the hoses and connections but never the gasket blow out. So needless to say, I was skeptical. The Conductor changed out one of the gaskets, remade the hoses and the air began to rise on the tail end in the very fashion that George Westinghouse designed when he created the charged air brake system.
Amtrak 392 was now in coming into the picture, so Desk Two decided to have the Conductor remain where he was and instructed me to take the train when ready, to Del Ray. He would have 392 stop and pick up my Conductor, who was some seventy-five or so cars back. 392 would then drop off my Conductor at my engines when they reached them; a very logical plan that made perfect sense. However, the railroad gods would not hear of it. They posses even more power than any Train Dispatcher, even one of our Dispatchers I call the “Polish Prince of Darkness.”
I got rolling again, proceeded by the Del Ray detector getting the “No defects” message and started to head into number two track. With the train about halfway through the turnout at Del Ray, the air began to drop again. Then it went into emergency. My guess was that the fix performed by my Conductor was not the proper treatment as his diagnosis was incorrect. Why is it that I always seem to know when I am right about something being wrong? I guess it’s a gift. Again I called Desk Two with this news. I’m almost certain Jimmy was ecstatic.
I recovered the air and began to pump it back into the train. “BEEP, BEEP, BEEP” went my CDU. This meant FRED was getting it up back there and the air was being restored through the entire train. Hmm, maybe a stroke of good luck; maybe.
Once I had about 63 PSI showing on my CDU, I knew I had a release of the brakes throughout the train and I could begin to move again. And so I did. As the train started moving again, the air continued to rise and rise quickly. Good omen, I hope. The best thing about hope is the government hasn’t figured out a way to tax it, yet. So I’m feeling a little better about things.
Desk Two calls and tells me to take the train all the way to Route 24 in Gilman, secure it and they would have 392 stop to pick me up there and take us home. We certainly would not have time to make it much further than this, so again, a very logical plan that made perfect sense. And of course, we would now be riding in air conditioned comfort.
Before we continue, let me set the table here as to what is happening around us. 194, the hot shot Chicago to New Orleans Intermodal train is rapidly approaching from the north. The plan now set up by Desk Two is to have 392 pull into number two track behind us at Del Ray. He would stop there once clear of the control point. 194 would run south passing us at Rt. 24 and 392 at Del Ray. Once 194 cleared, Desk Two would then back 392 out of number two track onto the single track and then head him north onto number one track around us. I have dubbed meets like this as “threesomes.”
And now back to our feature presentation. With brake pipe pressure doing well and the train rolling pretty good, I start through the quaint little town of Onarga. This town is the landscaping capital of Illinois as there are several large wholesale landscape nurseries here that supply retail nurseries all over the place. There are five road crossings in the town, with four of them very close together. The fifth one is at the north end of the town, about a third of a mile from the rest of them. Can you envision what is coming next?
As I’m rolling through town, the CDU suddenly yells out it five note chorus again. While we didn’t go into emergency, the brake pipe pressure began to drop rapidly yet again. The train came to a stop with all five crossings blocked, and my Conductor is miles away getting picked up by Amtrak. There is serious talk within the industry to, at some point, operate trains with just a single person on board and someday possibly with nobody on board. Here is a prime example of why this idea will be a prelude to disaster. I quickly and effectively had this town completely divided into two separate pieces. No emergency personnel could possible get through without having to drive miles and miles out of their way to get from one side of town to the other. I have essentially taken the town hostage.
“Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men? The Shadow knows.”
Again I contact Jimmy at Desk Two and again, I fill him in on our plight. He didn’t say too much. I think perhaps he was hoping for a visit from the boys in those clean white coats upon receiving this latest bit of news.
The clock on the wall is rapidly becoming our enemy here. We have less than forty-five minutes to work now and have the world of Onarga to ourselves. Actually, I have it to myself as the Conductor is still quite the distance away. I quickly try a creative method to get the air to restore in the train and to my luck, it works! The air pressure starts coming up on the CDU. Again, as soon as I can get enough air up to move the train, I start to do so. I start rolling slowly and all seems to be well. The brake pipe air is again, quickly rising. To Route 24 we go.
As I get about one and a quarter miles from Rt. 24, the railroad gods decide to have their way with us just once more; for the road I guess. All of a sudden the CDU starts singing its woeful song yet again. Don’t you know any other tunes? The air didn’t just begin to drop this time, it just went right into emergency. When I came to a stop yet again, I was about one mile south of Rt. 24. For all practical purposes, this was the middle of nowhere. There was a little private crossing used by one of the nurseries about ten car lengths behind the engines, but I don’t know if there is a way for a cab to access this road to reach the train. I’ll explain this in a bit.
Once stopped, I tried to recover the air, but my luck (sic) had run out. No air was being restored to FRED on the tail end. Once again I notified Desk Two. I did some quick calculating and figured I had managed to clear four of the five road crossings in Onarga, so they were opened for business again. Amtrak verified this fact when they came around us. The Onargans could live without the one crossing I guess. Hey, four out of five isn’t so bad. In baseball if you get a hit four out of every five times at bat you have a batting average of .800 which is phenomenal.
I informed Desk Two that I would not be able to move the train as there was a serious problem and I was not able to get the air back. I informed him the sands of time had about run out for us as well, that we had one crossing in Onarga blocked and that we were a mile from Rt. 24. Four at once, I guess this would be the railroad’s version of a grand slam.
“You can put it on the board, YES!”
I explained to him that there was a private crossing here close to the engines, but I wasn’t certain if a cab driver with a relief crew would be able to find it in the dark and even if they did find it would be accessible. He said if the relief crew had to walk from 24 to reach the train, then so be it. There was nothing else we could do. Glad it would be them not me. Did I mention that there was also a feeding frenzy for mosquitoes occurring this evening? I was also informed that a Carman from Champaign was being summoned to come up here in an attempt to try to correct the problem on this train.
So now, while waiting for 392 to come take out of this living hell, I began to tie down the train. I then gathered up both mine and the Conductor’s goodies and grips. As 392 rolled past our train, they stopped where they heard the air blowing. The Amtrak Conductor and Assistant Conductor made a fix (or so they believed) then brought the train up to the head end to pick me up. I boarded and we exchanged pleasantries as the train then quickly rolled up to the station, a little “Amshack” at Rt. 24.
“Quick, drive me off this picture.”
Like a little parade, the Amtrak Conductor, Assistant Conductor, my Conductor and I headed up to the club car to get something to drink. Only in this case being that we were still on duty even though expired under the hours of service, we did not get to partake in any of that fun stuff that is distilled or fermented. No, instead I took a caffeine fix and had a cup of coffee. Most of you are probably aware that caffeine is one of the five basic food groups for all railroaders along with grease, salt, cholesterol and alcohol. Although in the case of alcohol, it is when off duty and not subject to call.
Even though we are dead on the hours of service, we are still on duty for pay purposes and of course, still on the property. We are dead on the hours but not completely dead. I guess this would make us zombies.
In processing up to the club car, we of course, had to pass all those passengers that were pretty likely totally disgusted with this train now being an hour late. I was thinking that perhaps it might possibly get ugly and that a riot might break out, or even worse, vigilante justice. Cool heads prevailed and several of the folks even joked with us about the affair. All that waiting they had to do, maybe the club car attendant was giving them two drinks for the price of one to calm their spirits.
The Amtrak Conductor, my Conductor and I eventually headed back to the deadhead car at the rear of the train and laughed and joked a bit about the events of the evening. The rest of the trip home was quiet and uneventful.
We didn’t get tied up until 2210 hours though, nearly two hours after we went dead.
I learned the following day what the problem was with the train. I spoke with the Conductor of the relief crew that came and got the train. It wasn’t a defective gasket like my Conductor thought and like I doubted. Apparently a glad hand, the metallic fitting at the end of each hose that couples the hoses together was defective on one of the cars. It was loose and when it flexed from the slack action and dynamics of the train moving, it would slip at the point where it connected to the rubber portion of the hose and begin to leak. Depending upon how much the hose flexed determined how much and at what rate the air would leak. The Champaign Carman replaced the hose and they had no other problems with the train.
The relief Conductor told me the cab driver was also able to locate the private road in the dark and able to drive them up close to the engines, so they didn’t have to walk a mile amongst the mosquitoes. I guess the railroad gods had done enough for one evening and called it a day.
Trips like this are proof that life truly is stranger than fiction. After a day like this one, I don’t think that even my literary hero Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. could even make something like this up.
Once again freely quoting those words that Kurt wrote and that I read so many years ago,
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
One post script; I have sent several chapters of my manuscript to a publisher to read. Perhaps he will be interested and desire to pursue this project. More news as it happens.
MTA Planning Document
http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/mic/index.html
Elevating the station without creating an excesively steep grade would mean elevating a good stretch of the line on both sides, building a new station, and then adding elevators and escalators. You're talking about a job possibly running to $500 million.
The upgrade is justified. Perhaps some highway pott money can be identified to create a RR overpass to replace the other grade crossing. I don't know exactly how that could be done.
Herricks Road. It was marked for elimination after a van load of teenagers raced a train to the grade crossing and lost ... actually, it is more precise to say it was a tie. In any event, the grade crossing elimination project took several years to accomplish and went monstrously over budget. All of which proves that Typical New York Incompetence does not end at the Nassau line.
http://www.portcement.org/tr/tr_cs_herricks.asp
http://www.bergerlehman.com/constr1.htm
http://www.vnhp.org/LIRR.htm
Service on the 14th Street Canarsie Line started in 1924 from 6th Avenue in Manhattan to Montrose Avenue in Brooklyn. In February 1927 to clear the way for this line 97 caskets were moved in Evergreen Cemetery and in Most Holy Trinity Cemetery. Also in that month the City of New York’s Board of Transportation received bids from contractors on building five subway stations (Morgan Avenue, Jefferson Street, DeKalb Avenue, Myrtle Avenue and Halsey Street) with work tobe completed in 180 working days. In August 1928 the line was completed from 8th Avenue to Canarsie.
Wow, five subway stations built in 189 working days! And just think, the Wilson Ave station is built on top of former gravesites, maybe it should have been included in the Subway Hauntings thread.
So you can indulge in your dark fantasies about how New York is going to hell if you want. But it's not a particularly constructive or helpful attitude to take and it doesn't accomplish anything.
Wouldn't it be nice if the TA didn't remove the crossing at E.105 Street?
Well, let's not go overboard. Subway-like frequency of service means you really need to close the thing because it's a pain for the TA to maintain and for the neighborhood to deal with.
At least the LIRR crossings are only really busy at rush hours.
A quick check at LIRR Mineola timetable page
shows 73 westbound and 76 eastbound. Let's see...149 divided by 24 = about 6 TPH.
Oh, I agree. I thought of that after I posted. I had only counted scheduled stops at Mineola. Figure all those examples you cited add maybe another 50 movements a day?
But then come back at noon and the crossing gates are open, undisturbed for half an hour.
Overnight, when scheduled service is more scarce.
On the subway, service frequency fluctuates too, but the variation is less, and service runs 24 hours a day. So I still maintain it's more a pain than a RR crossing.
That ain't gonna happen any time soon. They are in the final phase of completing the Mineola Blvd. overpass reconstruction, so elevating the tracks are out.
However, the next big thing is to triple track the line between Floral Park and Hicksville which is sorely needed. The way the new overpass is situated may even have provisions for a third track.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
This type of decision is usually not a spur of the moment type thing.
David
How would all of these riders have found out that the (9) was being dropped? It hasn't been announced publicly, AFAIK.
David
If skip-stop is going to remain, could you try to find out why?
Sean@temple
With time and experience you will overcome your senility and learn much. :0)
Have you considered that maybe it's OK for people to be ignorant on occasion and learn from Subtalk? At least Ron for a change was uninsulting in asking what city was being referred to.
Have you considered that maybe it's OK for people to be ignorant on occasion and learn from Subtalk?
Its ok for normal people, not self proclaimed ageist know-it-alls. Ron seems to take joy in throwing stones in his glass house.
Sean@temple
Anybody who would be able to answer your question would understand it too.
You did it twice. That's not a typo (i.e., an accidental hitting of the wrong keys); that's a failure to know the acronym.
I really don't mind that you don't know the acronym. Nobody here knows everything. I just mind that you criticize another for asking a simple uninsulting question. I don't mind if you criticize him when he is insulting, but this time he wasn't.
I also do the same thing with MTBA as opposed to MBTA, although now I use MTBA on purpose because it is rolls better off the tongue and you can infer some humour out of it (sort of like LIAR instead of LIRR).
I don't mind if you criticize him when he is insulting, but this time he wasn't.
I am taking the offensive on Ron.
Apparently it's working; some find you offensive.
No. I just like cracking your railfan window once in a while.
:0)
You sure post ALOT for someone who's bedridden in recovery.
Aside,
FYI I've known a few folks in Physical Therapy and they've
found soothe of their pain through medication and massaging.
Here I see you posting frequent--- so I'd got to wondering what
that does to help you heal!
Sorry their way don't work for you.
I don't know about others, but I find it kinda hard to believe
ANYTHING someone says after they come onboard and make a spectacle of
themselves their first days here... (memoirs of SlantR40 and dialog postings
every 3 minutes).
I DO wish you well in recovery.
I, along with Jersey Mike, just didn't find any (logical) relation to this particular thread.
(Maybe we'd all have BETTER relations if you didn't su*k your brake pipe
so damn hard everytime someone inquires of your status).
I was simply asking what POSTING here does to HELP YOU HEAL.
See? Now WHO looks misaligned?
Thanks & Put away the caps..
There's hope afterall.... :)
The issue was with the content of your THREADS and POSTS.
Back in April, you came along onboard (with SlantR40 Vlad) and you both (coincidentally?)
posted dialogs back and forth between you both (overloading the bandwidth
and drowning out topical discussions of the board).
Asked to "take it to email", you refused.
--Asif ALL EYES were to be on you.--
And when all eyes WERE on you, you had an illness and were hospitalized and.......
that's when the loopholes in your story began to show.
Thus, led the readers herein to each develop their own opinion on you.
(Some wishing recovery, others wishing ____who knows___).
It's hard for us to take "joshing" from you because we have
no way of knowing you serious from you comical.
I've never run for HALL MONITOR... but atleast I can be a minority with a voice.
JerseyMike proposed a solution, I think is feasible for 1 and all.
:)
Illogical and silly post on your part, South Ferry. Nobody overloads bandwidth and drowns out anything here.
It's easy enough to change the way posts are displayed on your screen, using the filters and killfile (if you were to actually decide you needed that).
Illogical and silly post on your part. There is someone who overloads bandwidth on this board with more than 1000 posts a month.
Gee, I didn't notice anybody overloading anything. I notice you posting as much as you want, whenever you want, subject only to your own daily quota.
Stop whining.
Must be the senility. With time you'll learn to overcome it.
I notice you posting as much as you want, whenever you want, subject only to your own daily quota.
It's true what they say about memory being the first to go. We're all subject to a 52 post daily limit.
Umm, No.
Mike's got his partner in crime.... (I'm not from Royal Island!).
Just because we are two separate citizens who share a mutual opinion that must = we are compadres in cahoots?
Not necessarily.
For the record, I've never met JerseyMike. :) lol
You've met his loved ones many times. They have this habit of greeting you and your train with bright yellow smiles - some horizontal, some vertical, some diagonal. :0)
Nice try...but he won't answer direct questions. That's one of the reasons why, until circumstances change, I won't even believe that he is as injured as he makes out to be. Nope, he lost me after his big hospital fraud back in April.
You know that there are a wide variety of new and exciting drugs that can help you block out the pain probably even better than posting and would not inflict long load times on the rest of us nor excessive bandwidth costs on Dave.
CC, the reason we find issue with you is because of your inunderstandable posts that neither ask questions nor present facts or stories. Notice that when you post that comes close to a question I do my best to answer it. If you modify the style of your posts we will cease to bug you.
BAM!
Hit the nail on the head, Mike!
Same dilemma occurs with cdta and how others don't comprehend
the relevant logic (nor proppar grammer) of his posts.
(irrelevancy = conflicts = reader disorientation).
The issue is NOT with CC LOCAL himself.
Your suggestion sounds like a feasible solution I'm sure we can all live with...
People need not take EVERYTHING they read to heart.
Good Sound Advice for SubTALKers like you and I and all.
Sorry, I couldn't resist
--Z--
It's like a traffic jam when you're already late
a no smoking sign on your cigarette break
like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
isn't it ironic dont you think
Damn now that song will be in my head for the rest of the day !
OK,OK, so I focusded on the the iron part.
Justice would be if the grave were moved to make way for a new subway tunnel.
Mark
(Advisory: This concert won't pass for a "Date").
Need More info, just scroll down the subtalk index, if you have it set to at least 2 days there should be like 4 notices between Subtalk and Bustalk!
Let me try one on you:
"One of my favorite restaurants, Tony's di Napoli, is one of the targets."
That's a good enough reason all by itself to build the SAS. Dynamite that greasy dive and put a new subway entrance right smack where the kitchen is now."
There - how's that?
:0)
"First, rub on the salt and pepper, then baste with your choice of honey-mustard or BBQ sauce."
"Turn slowly on the spit, cooking until the juices run clear and your bird is 160 degrees inside by a thermometer check"
"Slice and serve immediately with a cranberry sauce garnish and fresh corn on the cob."
:0)
"It's one of those things where nobody wants it in their back yard, but it has to be done somewhere."
-Bruce Dimpflimaer
BTW, I hope his reasturant is the first one condemmed.
Probably enough for relocation.
> To me it's a win-win situation.
Compensation will not cover the higher rent that these businesses will likely pay after relocation. They could possibly temporarily lose some business while they're closed and until their regular customers find them again. And they may permanently lose the business of customers who do not find their new location convenient.
I could care less about chain stores like Duane Reade and CVS as well. They'll have no problem relocating. Its the smaller ones that will hurt.
What I like about the situation is that the MTA is private when it fits their needs, and public when laws involving public agencies come into play.
Not all businesses will pay higher rents. Some might, but some might not. In particular, those who last renegotiated their leases during the go-go late 1990's may well find their rents significantly reduced.
While property owners rather than tenants are paid for condemned properties, given the scope of this project it may be possible for some tenants to be compensated for the temporary loss of revenues during the relocation process. Lastly, while a particular business may lose some regular customers in its new location, it probably will gain some too.
Let be real. Current residents and business are going to lose tons of building during construction and see little bennifit from completion
That is the price for progress. It is unfortunite
The real issue in eminent domain is whether government should be permitted to take property in redevelopment projects, in order to increase employment, the tax base, and available housing. If the answer is no, then already developed cities, with already subdivided properties, will find it impossible to compete with "greenfield" sites on the suburban fringe for development, and will slowly rot. But if the answer is yes, the government can seize the property of one private owner to give it to another, with all kinds of potential for abuse.
They relocated further up Northern Blvd and let me just say that after bitching and moaning that they would lose their steady clientele it turned out that their steady customers not only followed them but they also picked up A LOT MORE business since it turned out to be a better location after all...
Peace,
ANDEE
This is your browser automatically filling in forms it has seen before (to save you time, of course) regardless of the default values provided by the server.
It was one of the reasons I came to NY, but I was lucky, all the GOs were cancelled because of the blackout.
We transferred from the D at 5th Ave, and the first set to come along was all redbirds. I was pretty happy... =)
I'm glad I came when I did... 105 left... wow... not even ten 11-car sets.
That's a BIG streetcar!!!
Examples of shuttles which did not connect with another line at one end were the 135-145th Street Shuttle and the Dyre Avenue shuttle.
But the Polo Grounds Shuttle connected with the D Line at 155th Street and the Jerome Avenue Line at 167th.
Why did the Board of Transportation keep it going after the rest of the el closed in 1940? I would guess that one reason was that the Bronx section was only about twenty-two years old then, and the city was relunctant to scrap the investment. It remained in service for another eighteen years.
Now you wouldn't want to strand the good people of the Putnam Division in the South Bronx, would you? :)
You would be able to find an article on the overall capital plan, and sometimes the priority list in the Times index, although not on each separate project, for the most part.
-- Ed Sachs
The Polo Grounds.
Bill "Newkirk"
At any rate, besides Putnam division riders [ btw, prior to 1916,
the Put crossed the bridge that later carried the "polo grounds
shuttle" and terminated in Manhattan at the polo grounds],
Sedgewick Ave did get some business. Although on the map
it may look like an easy walk from that neighborhood to the
Jerome Ave el, if you know the terrain, you'd recall that a very
steep hill stands in your way. Anderson, well, I'm not sure
how many people used that station in the shuttle days, but it
was sort of there anyway.
I really enjoyed looking at the photos and text in the link in a previous thread about the Shuttle. From the Forgotten NY web site, I think. Tommy Meehan
--Mark
Back in the 1870's there was a real possibility that the steam RRs would have had used elevated structures as entryways into various parts of New York City (Manhattan). There was a great deal of financial and political wrangling done in this effort. The New York & Hudson River RR of the Vanderbilt interests was the primary backer in this operation. However, by the time the all the dust and dollars settled, the NY&N emerged as a suburban carrier from the Polo Grounds Station to Yonkers. At that time, even it's lightest equipment was too heavy for the early elevated structures of the day. The Manhattan elevated lines were controlled by a number of interests including the Vanderbilts, who would attempt to block each other in their attempts to reach downtown New York by elevated rail structure. Those financial doings and undoings far surpassed the technology of the day to make those plans a reality. So, the Polo Grounds El station only became a transfer point from the NY&N to the 9th Ave Manhattan Elevated Line. Construction of the 9th Ave El moved northward. On Dec 1, 1879, the 145th and 155th Street stations were opened. The NYC&N Bridge and structure to the Polo Grounds opened in May of 1881. It would be interesting to know the type of equipment used by the NY&N during the steam era on the El and after electrification prior to the termination of NY&N service over the bridge on Jan 6, 1918. The NY&N bridge was leased to the IRT for 999 years to become part of the IRT 9th Ave El / Jerome Ave line connection, which would open on July 1, 1918.
I have scanned in two pics from the book The Putnam Division by Gallo and Kramer to help illustrate the connections. The NY&N locomotives are not present in the 1880's steam era image. The book pictures a 2-4-4t, which appears much heavier than the Forney 0-4-4T's of the El. The NY&N Yonkers Branch passenger equipment was lighter than the mainline equipment and appeared to be similar to the El cars.
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mellowone_99/vwp?.dir=/Mellow+One%27s+Pix/NYCPIX&.dnm=NY%26N155.jpg&.view=t
The image of the Sedgwick Ave Term from about 1940 clearly shows the former connecting structure there.
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mellowone_99/vwp?.dir=/Mellow+One%27s+Pix/NYCPIX&.dnm=SedgewickTerm.jpg&.view=t
Another historical connecting El/RR structure existed on the 2nd/3rd Ave El structure at the Harlem River. That shuttle operation used elevated railway equipment throughout its history. The train ran from the Harlem River Station of the NYNH&H in the Bronx to the 129th Street Station complex of the 2nd Ave El on Manhattan. This connection was the vestige of the New Haven's attempt to link its main line directly into Manhattan via the 2nd Ave El Structure.
Possibly, the 3rd Ave El structure on 42nd St which became Grand Central Shuttle may have originally been planned to connect with the terminal trackage to carry New York Central Trains further south as the original terminal had been at 23rd St. For a time, passenger cars were horse drawn from Grand Central down to the former Madison Square terminal.
I am 5 years old. My dad comes to me and says:
Dad: Listen, son, the man on our crystal radio set says they've just passed the bond issue to build The Second Avenue Subway to replace the 3rd Avenue el.
Paul: Golly gee willikers, Dad. Maybe we can take the trolley across the Williamsburg Bridge and we'll ride it together! And I'll take my Captain Video decoder ring!
1955
Dad: Come watch on our 12-inch round-screened DuMont TV which just came back from the repair shop for the 16th time, and see that they've just closed the Third Avenue el. That means they're soon going to build The Second Avenue Subway to replace it!
Paul: Gosharoonie, Dad! Maybe we'll ride on it before I get out of Junior High, as soon as we've watched the Uncle Miltie show!
1972
Railfan Friend: Hey, Silver Leaf guy, I heard on my cheap Japanese transistor radio that they've finally broken ground for The Second Avenue Subway.
Paul: Great! Maybe we'll have a ride on it before I'm married and have kids! If the Viet Cong don't invade first.
2003
Paul's Kid #1: Hey, dad, the cable news channel says they're going to be starting construction on the full length, super-duper Second Avenue Subway soon!
Paul: At last! Maybe we'll ride it before you graduate from college, have a family and join the AARP!
2036
Nursing Home Nurse: Mr. Matus?
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: You were a train buff, right?
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: I just heard via the Vulcan Mind Meld Chip in my brain that they opened the first part of The Second Avenue Subway from 125th Street to 115th Street.
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: The Second Avenue Subway, The Second Avenue Subway, I SAID THEY OPENED THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY!!!!
Paul: The Second Avenue el, you say! Did they finally get those smoky steam engines off it!!!
Nurse: NOT THE EL!!!! THE SUBWAY!!!!
Paul: What?!?!?
**********************
And you guys wonder why I don't get excited with all the latest Second Avenue Subway news.
When I read in one of the newspaper articles talking about the guy in the drug store at 72nd and 2nd talking about how it had been there for 50 years, the thought occured to me that this was a store that had opened at one of the other times when the 2nd Avenue subway was a pretty hot item. How did they think that the thing was going to be built? Heck-there would have been more disruption to that community at that time. How much property would have been taken at that time to build the turnoff to the 76th Street tunnel? (76th Street in Manhattan, that is. I don't want to deal with that other one).
If the 2nd Avenue line is killed off again, it's going to be because it died the death of a thousand wounds, not because of one big thing. If that happens, I can't believe that anyone will ever raise the issue again, and all of the people who are now doing the NIMBY dance will go back to whining about how overcrowded the Lex is again.
Thank you for the morning laughs. :)
Do you really think the Vulcan Mind Meld Chip will be available in 2036? I have heard rumours of a VMMC prototype being worked on, code named Ichabod, but nothing more definitive ....
--Mark
Adam
Should we place bets down on how long it will take for construction to be "suspended" for another 30 years?
I am 5 years old. My dad comes to me and says:
Dad: Listen, son, the man on our crystal radio set says they've just passed the bond issue to build The Second Avenue Subway to replace the 3rd Avenue el.
Paul: Golly gee willikers, Dad. Maybe we can take the trolley across the Williamsburg Bridge and we'll ride it together! And I'll take my Captain Video decoder ring!
1955
Dad: Come watch on our 12-inch round-screened DuMont TV which just came back from the repair shop for the 16th time, and see that they've just closed the Third Avenue el. That means they're soon going to build The Second Avenue Subway to replace it!
Paul: Gosharoonie, Dad! Maybe we'll ride on it before I get out of Junior High, as soon as we've watched the Uncle Miltie show!
1972
Railfan Friend: Hey, Silver Leaf guy, I heard on my cheap Japanese transistor radio that they've finally broken ground for The Second Avenue Subway.
Paul: Great! Maybe we'll have a ride on it before I'm married and have kids! If the Viet Cong don't invade first.
2003
Paul's Kid #1: Hey, dad, the cable news channel says they're going to be starting construction on the full length, super-duper Second Avenue Subway soon!
Paul: At last! Maybe we'll ride it before you graduate from college, have a family and join the AARP!
2036
Nursing Home Nurse: Mr. Matus?
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: You were a train buff, right?
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: I just heard via the Vulcan Mind Meld Chip in my brain that they opened the first part of The Second Avenue Subway from 125th Street to 115th Street.
Paul: What?!?!?
Nurse: The Second Avenue Subway, The Second Avenue Subway, I SAID THEY OPENED THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY!!!!
Paul: The Second Avenue el, you say! Did they finally get those smoky steam engines off it!!!
Nurse: NOT THE EL!!!! THE SUBWAY!!!!
Paul: What?!?!?
**********************
And you guys wonder why I don't get excited with all the latest Second Avenue Subway news.
wayne
Wasn't too impressed with the pregame show on the Mall. Just a big Pepsi commercial. Although, Britney was probably in her glory, I bet being that she could be near all the other airheads that work at the Capitol. Great to see our Nation's Capital turned into a big billboard. : (
wayne
Adam
THIS Sunday or NEXT "Open House" Sunday?
Specifics help masses.
This is definitely one year where I wish school started earlier.
Nice.
Betcha that line WON'T get us in the door, Jack...
Yep. I hope to be there. It is the first of a series of "Grand Openings," with TM members and the public following later.
--Mark
You must have an invite to get in.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
AHM HO scale trains, American Railroads, #4902 locomotive. 1920 Baggage P.O. Car and 1920 Diner Car. All made in Italy, near mint in box. Box end flap on locomotive is missing.
Athearn Milwaukee Road end powered locomotive. Side railings are separate in the box. HO scale, excellent condition.
So, did she do OK, or did she get taken?
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The GG1 could be run near your elevated/subway line, i.e. Sunnyside yard would be a prototype where the #7 line runs right over it and the LIRR runs beside it, plus New York & Atl run thru it with freight.
Frank Hicks
A MNRR Station Sign
found in a NYC Antiques Store
finds it's way back home...
Story in Journal News
Wouldn't have made a difference.
Peace,
ANDEE
But with cameras you have a better chance of IDng suspects faster. Anything you can do to get the scum off the street faster will prevent someone else from getting hurt.
Glad she's OK. This moron will find out he messed with the wrong victim.
I remember that fateful Labor Day weekend (probably Friday or Saturday night, think it was Saturday.). I was riding the E train from Queens and got off that that same 7th Ave stop. The whole evening, I felt sick, a huge migraine was throbbing on my head. I felt like I was going to pass out. But I was SHOCKED at the gang of 50 kids getting off the same train I was on. They all went upstairs, I stayed on the same platform (the downtown platform for both D and E trains), and the station was quiet, a bit too quiet. The D train that would take me home pulled in and I wasted no time getting on it and was safely home. But it was sad that I read in the newspaper the next day, that I MISSED THE KILLING BY JUST 5 MINUTES (I boarded the train at 9:40 PM). Just ironic. (The punks went to Roseland to hide there, but there were busted as the NYPD stopped the party to find them, escorting everyone out one by one at the landmark ballroom and club.)
My heartfelt prayers are out to the Watkins family and hope the 7 scum will never ever see the light of day outside of their prisons.
We can never be complacent.
I think some of the funniest series of posts I did were a bunch of practice train operator's exam questions.
Practice Train Operator's Question #2
Practice Train Operator's Question #3
Practice Train Operator's Question #5
This next post is a favorite of mine.
Delays Expected Monday When Metal Detectors Will Be Activated
Who can forget this next post, no matter how hard they try?
i am reluctantly using the killfile for the first time
Well that's enough self indulgence for a while. I just want to thank myself for the many hours of enjoyment that I have provided myself here on Subtalk in the last four years.
Oh well, they have a chance to redeem themselves with the September episode this saturday. I hope the report on the Museum's reopening is interesting.
While they were on a D train they were held to let an A go by. A PA announcement was first made in English then again in Spanish.
What is the TA's policy on announcements on the train or the platform? Are they to be English only or if the crew is bilingual can they make the announcements in Spanish?
--jonathan
I'm sure you know this and just made a typo, but that's not the T/O's job. Announcements are the C/R's job.
English is the primary language in NYC. A failure to speak and understand English dooms one to poverty for one's whole life. Any minor gestures by governmental authorities to make information available in other languages doesn't change this basic fact, which is governed by the employment market.
Are you saying that even the minor actions the goverment takes to provide some information in other languages should be declared illegal?
Maybe not. It might be possible to work in industry or construction without knowing English. Same for some retail and service jobs within ethnic communities - there are store owners in Chinatown, among other places, who know little or no English. Okay, you're not going to get wealthy, but you might be able to manage a middle-class living.
> NOT that English-only speakers are disqualified from bieng hired for jobs they are qualified for
Or making more for the same job as an English speaker solely based on the fact that they speak another language. One City agency used to do this, however I don't know if it still does.
Seeing some of the attitudes that some groups have, it seems to me the reason some people don't learn the english language is arrogance.
That is not true. The equipment sucks in many cases. You can't say every C/R on the D line doesn't know how to use the PA, Concourse R68s are notorious for having poor PA systems.
this seems to answer puzzling questions such as "how much cost to ride from howard beach/jamaica to JFK?" and "when will it be done?"
CG
As long as you have checked your bag in following the airline's rules, it's their responsibility to get that done. Time will tell if they can do it efficiently enough. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
If it were up to me, I'd think about hooking up an AirTrain car to the consist for just luggage (PA/airline personnel handle the luggage. You check in at Jamaica). When you get off at your terminal, the bag comes off too in their custody.
I had thought about that also (well -- not specifically that, I had thought about separate FrieghtAirTrains, but similar concept). I think the problem with either option is that the unloading and loading of bags at the terminals would lengthen station dwell time to the point where the plan of having trains every 2 minutes on the central loop would be disrupted.
"Time will tell if they can do it efficiently enough."
Well, time and experience. While I plan to make extensive use of the Jamaica connection, I'll probably just check my bags at the airport. I have no interest in having my luggage be a guinea pig.
Most airlines now require you to check your bags 30 minute before the flight in order for them to be assured of getting on the plane (although at JFK some require 45). I expect that the airlines will have to implement a longer window to allow for baggage checked at Jamaica.
CG
"The vehicle's interior has been designed with comfortable seating, wide doors on each side to facilitate easy ingress/egress for passengers with luggage, and luggage racks and ample open floor space for luggage carts."
I hope the PA has gotten past the hysteria about overstated risks to checked bags. It souds like they may have.
As long as every bag is matched up to a passenger with photo ID and the bag is examined properly (hand-check, sniffer dog, machine etc.) then there's no danger.
Linked for the lazy: http://www.ny1.com/ny/NY1ToGo/Story/index.html?topic=2&subctopic=5&contentintid=32891 - not too shabby for a one handed link while eating a doughnut, if I may say so myself
Well what if everyone in the car suddenly shifted in the same manner as the weights while the AirTrain was traveling at a similar rate of speed at a similar location? The scenario is entirely possible. You just need something outside worth looking out the window at, and an operator manually controlling the AirTrain at too high of a speed.
It's mindboggling that they can't even run one of these trains on a test run without signals without getting into an accident when the TTC were running a full schedule on the Scarborough RT back in 1984 on visual, without signals either, carrying passengers without incident before the Seltrac system became operational. The Airtrain staff need to be instructed on how to operate a train safely manually.
Put another way, if the Airtrain was operating with the ATO, I'd have no problem riding it. If they had to drop it to manual, I'd be thinking about either a) kicking their guy off the controls and driving it myself, or, b) bailing and doing the rest of the trip the old fashioned way with my own two feet.
-Robert King
So if I take this train, which was starting to sound good, instead of that whatchamacallit 10 dollar motorcoach, I had to be searched more than 2 times??
Yeah, I've done that walk. At least, from a little south of the Belt up to Jamaica Station. Interesting jaunt. The streets surrounding the vicinity of the Van Wyck are surprisingly suburban in appearance, anyway. More so than the similar areas around Cross Bay Blvd. to the west. But the occasional packs of dogs I saw as I walked north did remind me that I was officially in Southeast Queens territory.
This lower density of the Van Wyck corridor is one of the reasons it would have "made better sense" to re-up the old LIRR line to get to the airport. At least there are established neighborhoods along the line. The AirTrain is basically a one trick pony.
Sorry, but what you think "made more sense" was not possible to do.
Yeah, I know, the PA funding it, etc. I gotta accept...but I don't forget.
Actually, it's federal law, not the PA's rules, that prohibits an intermediate station..
Which is not entirely a bad thing. After all, airline passengers are paying for AirTrain through taxes levied on their tickets, and very few if any of them would benefit from an intermediate stop.
False statement, and you have no credible data to support it. We've been through this a few times. At best it could run from about 10AM-3PM, and again after the evening rush and before the morning rush, overnight. I'm being generous, and I give it 14 hours. The MTA gives it even less.
And we haven't even rehashed all the difficulties with the ROW. Beyond the Super NIMBY factor, some residents would actually have something legitimate to gripe about.
Now, if you arrange for trains to stop short and dump passengers off at Jamaica (no one-seat Manhattan service) then you can operate this all 24 hours.
But once ESA opens, then the only thing stopping the TA from doing it (other than money, of course - what's another $1 billion between friends, eh?) is the ROW. It really does run too close to people's home and property (we're not even considering encroachment, which is a legal issue) so you'd have to elevate the tracks, or sink them into a culvert, or maybe stack them one on top of the other.
My choice? I'd develop it but put the train underground and remove the tracks and debris from above ground. It's an eyesore, to say the least. I do like the idea of improving commuter rail service through that corridor.
Your excuse is just that: an excuse. If there had been interest in running direct service between JFK and Penn Station via LIRR, it could have been done most of the day on weekdays and all day on weekends. Airport peak hours don't coincide with commuter peak hours. The PA wasn't interested, so it wasn't done.
You may recall that I'm not a big fan of direct LIRR service, at least not until after a basic subway connection is completed, but I'm not going to make up excuses to support my view. There shouldn't be an LIRR connection for the time being, but lack of room at Penn Station isn't the reason why.
(Notice, incidentally, that a subway connection would give direct service between JFK and Penn Station, and lots of other points, 24/7.)
Penn Station is not the issue. The Penn tubes under the East River are the issue. They are at capacity at least 10 out of 24 hours, and more if the MTA's more conservative argument is better supported than mine.
"Your excuse is just that: an excuse. If there had been interest in running direct service between JFK and Penn Station via LIRR, it could have been done most of the day on weekdays and all day on weekends. Airport peak hours don't coincide with commuter peak hours. The PA wasn't interested, so it wasn't done"
You are beingt dishonest here in that you know that there is no capacity to run trains to the airport from Manhattan. So unless you can show specific credible evidence about this, I will assume you are just posting nonsense for its own sake. The PA had nothing to do with this - in fact the PA built AirTrain because it knew the MTA could not provide airport service for many years.
This is where your railfanning cannot give you answers, Dave. Looking through a railfan window will not help you learn the financial and political relationship between the MTA and the PA.
Stick to railfanning and subway routing and R32s. You're not much good at the other stuff.
The lack of capacity on a section of line for even tten hours per weekday is no reason to make it physically impossible for airport trains to run on that section during the rest of the day or on weekends.
AirTrain is a railfan's dream. New cars, new tracks, ATO, railfan windows, the works. I object to AirTrain as implemented because there are cheaper alternatives that would have served passengers better, like direct subway service or improved bus operations (with cross-platform transfers to the subway). Are you sure you're not the railfan? Your support of AirTrain seems to be dominated by ad hominems and by assumptions that AirTrain must be better than buses because, well, just because.
I never looked at it that way before, you're quite right.
There are no ad hominems there. One of the issues of this discussion is that you present "facts" with no support, and post things you know to be false. Show evidence of scholarship and I'll acknowledge it.
I find much of your writing on subway routes, cars etc. to be great stuff and I've said so.
You live very close (compared to me, anyway) to the world's most awesome library. A God library if there ever was one, the NY Public Library. Visit and read (and not just railfan-related stuff).
"The lack of capacity on a section of line for even tten hours per weekday is no reason to make it physically impossible for airport trains to run on that section during the rest of the day or on weekends."
OK. Now, you're making more sense. I don't agree with you, but your statement is not unreasonable.
The reason I would not do as you suggest in this statement is that, while you mayget airport workers using the service, you will miss the heaviest air traveler hours, and so I would conclude that it isn't cost effective, for the airport.
If we are talking about using the line to serve Queens as a commuter line (besides the airport), not being able to run any trains at the 10 busiest hours of the day is a major problem. A compromise might be that the train runs to Jamaica only, then extends to Manhattan in the off-hours, carrying, paradoxically, fewer people.
And you want to spend $1 billion + to make that happen? And fight the uber-NIMBYs?
It is now 2003. OK, if we start now, the Rockaway line would be ready simultaneously with ESA. Run 1/3 your airport trains from Grand Central, 1/3 from Penn and 1/3 from Brooklyn.
Now convince MTA to do it. If there ever was a time, it is now.
Go ahead, write MTA and your elected officials, and give it a shot. I agree that starting planning/engineering now is feasible.
No, dismissing my arguments by calling me a railfan is ad hominem. What facts do I post (as facts, relevant to my arguments) that are false?
You lost the Whitehall argument because you made faulty assumptions about the configuration of the station (although I'm sure you'll claim that you didn't lose the argument after all). This came shortly after you repeatedly insisted that you knew what stub tracks even though at least three of us had been trying to correct you.
You live very close (compared to me, anyway) to the world's most awesome library. A God library if there ever was one, the NY Public Library. Visit and read (and not just railfan-related stuff).
I have, and I will continue to do so.
OK. Now, you're making more sense. I don't agree with you, but your statement is not unreasonable.
Thank you. Did I say anything different the last time?
The reason I would not do as you suggest in this statement is that, while you mayget airport workers using the service, you will miss the heaviest air traveler hours, and so I would conclude that it isn't cost effective, for the airport.
But is that really true? Flyers and commuters don't follow the same schedule. I wouldn't be surprised if middays and evenings have heavier air traffic than the rush hours. Weekends, of course, are quite busy.
If we are talking about using the line to serve Queens as a commuter line (besides the airport), not being able to run any trains at the 10 busiest hours of the day is a major problem. A compromise might be that the train runs to Jamaica only, then extends to Manhattan in the off-hours, carrying, paradoxically, fewer people.
I'm not addressing the possibility of also making local Queens stops.
But keep in mind that the LIRR has, in the past, induced some Manhattan-bound commuters to Flatbush by charging more for service to Penn, and that practice could be reinstated. Alternatively, or in addition, the LIRR could promote the LIC by tossing in discounted ferry tickets. That would clear up a bit of space in Penn Station and the tunnels leading to it, which could be filled by a few trains from JFK. I don't know if it would be worth implementing such an option, but it could certainly be considered.
And you want to spend $1 billion + to make that happen?
No, I don't. I'm not in favor of direct LIRR service between JFK and Manhattan except as a possible later premium-fare addition to the system (much as the premium-fare Heathrow Express came a few decades after the basic Piccadilly line began serving Heathrow, at standard Underground fares).
That doesn't mean I'm going to make up specious arguments to support my case -- because specious arguments only support the opposition.
And fight the uber-NIMBYs?
What NIMBYs? Just take the existing AirTrain line and curve it west instead of east. (I don't care if the proposed line uses new or old trackage -- it should use whatever provides the best service at the lowest cost. If NIMBYs are a major problem on one routing, then the other routing probably makes more sense.)
You're right, I didn't lose the Whitehall argument. However, it iscertainly true that what I ask for may be too expensive in MTA's judgment. But I said so back then (chec the posts), so your complaint makes no sense.
"But keep in mind that the LIRR has, in the past, induced some Manhattan-bound commuters to Flatbush by charging more for service to Penn, and that practice could be reinstated. Alternatively, or in addition, the LIRR could promote the LIC by tossing in discounted ferry tickets. That would clear up a bit of space in Penn Station and the tunnels leading to it, which could be filled by a few trains from JFK. I don't know if it would be worth implementing such an option, but it could certainly be considered."
I like that. It's likely to produce some desirable results. How effective? I'll take your word for it.
"What NIMBYs? Just take the existing AirTrain line and curve it west instead of east. (I don't care if the proposed line uses new or old trackage -- it should use whatever provides the best service at the lowest cost. If NIMBYs are a major problem on one routing, then the other routing probably makes more sense.)"
Building the LIRR line down the Van Wyck to an airport circulator shuttle train (eg AirTrain) would have been a very cool idea. But, again, you're looking at long, long lead times, and an MTA not interested in building it, and no $$$ in the Capital Plan for it. The PA had the money, subject to PFT legal restrictions on how it's used, and had the mandate to build AirTrain, and as you've pointed out, very little NIMBY. AirTrain is ready now (well, November). The alternative was no service at all until 2010 at minimum, regardless of ROW picked (due to dependence on East Side Access, which won't be ready until then).
I estimate that AirTrain moved airport rail service up by 7-10 years at least, and probably more like 15-20. (100 years if you ask Peter Rosa :0) )
I don't know if that is really true . I know they are at capacity at rush hours, when the most trains run . How can they be at capacity non rush hours when less trains run ?
The presence of that highway has not done much good to the stretch of neighborhoods between, say, Atlantic Avenue and the Belt Parkway. AirTrain might end up being a real bone of contention within the areas it passes by. One thing about having a rail transit station in a community; it can make a place seem like a destination, someplace to actually want to go to. As it is, people will see the trains going by non-stop and they might start to wonder why they can't get on. I wouldn't fault them for that attitude either. I'd be pissed if I lived there.
A nice idea. I think, though that MTA would have to pay for it (to make sure federal law about the use of certain pots of money are not violated). Worth considering. I don't know if the PA's lawyers would agree that they could defend it if a NIMBY filed suit about it.
"Maybe at where it crossed Rockaway Boulevard. Or a little further north on the line. It sounds like you might have thought I was referring to the aborted LIRR branch reopening. "
I stand corrected!
I posted the URL for the PA's report on the incident a few weeks ago, I'll try to find it again.
CG
Then what killed him?
Hindsight is 20/20. Plus, consider that there's no one posting on this board, you and I included, with enough qualifications, domain knowledge, expertise etc. to make a statement like that.
It's still not evident to me that the shifting weights were the likely cause of the accident (as opposed to the likely cause of the operator's death once something caused the derailment).
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/airtrain_rep.pdf
Not really.
$5 in Metrocard dollars (i.e., actually $4.17) or in real dollars.
What about the monthly? Airport employees would probably like to know.
You know this for a fact?
If so, do you mean that (a) I will not be allowed to use a Metrocard on Airtrain or (b) I will be allowed to use a Metrocard, but it will deduct a supposed "$6.00" from my Metrocard balance, which is 5 real dollars?
The fare for the Airtrain will be $5, no discount except for monthly Airtrain , airport worker discounts.
So the fare on the Airtrain side is always $5, the fare on your Metro card from Chambers street to Howard Beach is a seperate fare.
The Airtrain will except Metro Cards as payment, so long as you have enough to cover the $5.
I have yet to hear a definite answer as to whether the $5 fare will include a free transfer to/from the subway. If it does, then the direct turnstiles will deduct $3 on entry to AirTrain (since $2 was already surrendered on entry to the subway) and $5 on exit. If it doesn't, then the direct turnstiles will deduce $5 on entry and $7 on exit (to cover both fares).
And all of these dollar figures are "Metrocard value"; in other words, most sensible New Yorkers will actually pay 5/6 of the stated amount.
You don't actually have to go to the street, physically. The mezzanine is divided into three sections. You'd cross from AirTrain fare control to outside fare control and then into subway fare control.
If you have a balance of $5 or more on your Metro Card then $5 dollars will be collected by the PA, that is totaly separate from the NYC Subway fare that is collected.
So whatever your Subway fare is, add $5. The $5 from the PA is not discounted, it's seperate.
The fare from NYC-Newark Airport on NJ Transit is about $4.50, however when you buy your ticket at a automated machine it automatically adds the $7 surcharge ($5 for NJ bound travelers) to the fare. Which is $11.50, $7 of which is the Airtrain fare.
So whatever it costs you to go to Howard Beach on the NYC Subway, add $5.
It's simple, for a one way ticket to JFK it will cost you $7 ($2 NYCTA, $5 Airtrain). If you have a montly multi-trip Metro card and get a discount you discount only applies to you NYCTA Subway fare, not the Airtrain fare.
Im not familiar with Metro card discounts but lets say (example) that with your montly Metro Card it costs you only $1.70 to ride from Chambers street to Howard Beach, add $5 when you enter the Airtrain fare zone for a total of $6.70.
If you had someone drop you off by car in front of the Airtrain station at Howard Beach it will cost you $5 to ride the Airtrain from Howard Beach to one of the JFK Terminals.
That's the problem.
If I ask a machine or a human to put $10 on my Metrocard, I hand over $10, and then my card shows a balance of $12.
So $12 of Metrocard value only cost me $10. Therefore, if the PA deducts $5 of value from my card, it has only cost me $4.17. The discount isn't anything I see when I enter Airtrain. It comes at the very beginning when I put the money on the card.
Mark
Before 9/11, I was able to tell my parents that (on average) I was safer than they were, even when the murder rate was high. Not anymore. The terrorists seem to have offset our safety edge.
Only if they manage something more spectacular still.
NYC has 7,000,000 people and lost maybe 1400 of them on 9/11. That is 0.2 per 1000. The US auto death rate is 0.13 per 1000 PER YEAR, while NYC's rate is far lower. Boating accidents, household accidents, and probably homicides are also lower in NYC than on the average, certainly in middle class areas. In another year NYC's violent deaths for 3 years (and by violent deaths I include accidents) will be lower than the national average even including 9/11.
I seem to recall reading that one’s chances of dying on the interstates (i.e. in an accident) were 1 in 1,100.
Mark
I think that this solution is cheaper than using many TBMs.
Whaddya think?
There is associated noise with rail running above ground and elevated rail structures are pretty unsightly despite their "old world" charm.
They basically detract from the overall appearance of the neighborhood which is why people don't want them.
-C. Montgomery Burns
second LRV's are fine for light density lines. Wasting the 'cab space' amd control hatdware costs on cars that will never operate in mini consdists is poor asset allocation. the 2nd Ave Sub will be a heavily patronised route once the full length is in service. Thus the equipment MUST be IND-BMT so that it is compatible with and can be linled to the major trunks of the system.
third, the el v. subway debate was settled aesthetically a century ago. NO place AFAIK in the US has chosen el's over subways unless the deal has been very skewed.
On a lighter, and possibly related note, a friend sent me this terrorist information:
"Now that Uday and Qusay have been eliminated, a lot of the
lesser-known family members are coming to the attention of
American authorities.
Among the brothers: -
Sooflay ...........the restauranteur
Guday...............the half-Australian brother
Huray...............the sports fanatic
Sashay..............the gay brother
Kuntay & Kintay.....the twins from the African mother
Sayhay..............the baseball player
Ojay................the stalker/murderer
Gulay...............the singer/entertainer
Ebay................the internet czar
Biliray.............the country music star
Ecksray.............the radiologist
Puray...............the blender factory owner
Regay...............the half-Jamaican brother
Tupay...............the one with bad hair
Among the sisters:
Lattay..............the coffee shop owner
Bufay...............the 300 pound sister
Dushay..............the clean sister
Phayray.............the zoo worker in the gorilla house
Sapheway............the grocery store owner
Ollay...............the half-mexican sister
Gudlay..............the promiscuous sister
Finally, there is Oyvey, but the family doesn't like to talk
about him!".
There you go...Something to insult everyone in that list :-)
Andrew.
Another Brother:
Soobway....the T/O
I believe the NYPD/FDNY held a similar drill.
While some aspects of the exercise, like decontamination, are not applicable to most of the likely subway emergencies, all the rest of it (evacuation, handling disabled riders, response times, efficiency and approprateness of medical response) is good practice for everyu day events.
The bioterrorism aspect means London Transport got the money to do a drill that it might not have done otherwise, or might have done much more infrequently.
The lesson here is that closed-mindedness leads to faulty conclusions.
Star-Ledger story by Joe Malinconico
1) Reinstate the commuter tax.
2) Use the money to build an expres line from Secaucus Transfer, through a new tunnel under the Hudson, across 43rd Street to Times Square and Grand Central, down Second Avenue (on express tracks added to the SAS) express to Lower Manhattan, through a new tunnel to Downtown Brooklyn, and out to Jamaica on the LIRR tracks.
Solves all the suburban problems at once, but without making the city pay for it. With East Side Access and MetroNorth to Penn, just about every suburban train would have an express ride to a choice of Grand Central, Penn, Lower Manhattan, Long Island City, Downtown Brooklyn, and even JFK with just one change of train.
Many states have commuter taxes (although they don't go by that name), and nobody complains. Why is it inconceivable that a city that performs many of the services normally handled by the state might also need a commuter tax, for the very same reasons?
I heard that if NYC was to put the commuter tax to the people who live in Westchester,Long Island,CT,NJ,and other places who work in NYC. I heard Westchester County was going to do the same thing for those who go to work in Westchester
A New Jersey resident who works in New York State pays tax to New York State, and nobody seems to complain. Yet when the exact same arragement is proposed for New York City, it's as though the world is coming to an end. What's the difference?
(I know the answer; I'm waiting for someone else to point it out.)
The highest costs of government are Medicaid and social services, and public education. The chilren of commmuters are educated in their home counties. And if people end up on Medicaid or social services and aren't put on a bus to New York City, that costs the city nothing. Commercial businesses pay for water, sewer, and sanitation directly. The taxes paid by commercial buildings and businesses far exceeds the services required by their customers.
You want a ripoff? It's the outcommuters. Suburban towns have done all they can to attract business out of New York City, to generate the tax "profits" for local residents indicated above. But they zone out affordable housing, so they don't have working class residents living in town and soaking up services. These are now imported, in droves, from New York City, but when they become ill or laid off, the cost of meeting their needs is on New York City's dime.
Studies by the Long Island Regional Planning Commission (in a study I worked on at NYC Planning) showed that while in-commuters are the richest people in the suburbs (and richer, on average, than city residents) out commuters are poor. LIRPG saw this as a positive trend -- the suburbs need these people but don't want them living there -- but were concerned that many were driving. Couldn't we put them on buses?
I am not on Medicaid, I am not on welfare, and I do not have children. I receive as much benefit from them as the commuter from the suburbs. How is someone who lives in southern Staten Island more responsible for public assistance to someone who lives in eastern Queens while someone who lives directly across the border in Nassau is not? New York City is an economically diverse city, far more than any of its suburbs. The rich of NYC support the poor of NYC -- fine, but why are rich suburbanites let off the hook (because they live in upper-class suburbs)? Or, conversely, if residents of an upper-class suburb are only responsible for the welfare recipients in their suburb, when why aren't residents of the Upper East Side only responsible for the welfare recipients in their neighborhood? (In the latter case, welfare would break down, with rich neighborhoods freed of the responsibility to support the poor and poor neighborhoods unable to support the poor. IMO, welfare should run on a regional, if not state or federal, basis.)
Business taxes aren't restricted to employees who commute from elsewhere. NYC residents pay them (indirectly) as much as non-NYC residents.
For at least eight hours each weekday, commuters enjoy the same city-provided services as I do, except for borrowing privileges at libraries. Shouldn't they also provide a fraction of the funding?
I'm still surprised that nobody has figured out why the suggestion of a city commuter tax brings out cries and protests while no commuter complains about the state commuter tax. There is something very different about the way the two are handled. what is it?
Commuters have access to some of the city's services, such as public safety and of course transit, but they do not use the big, expensive ones: Medicaid, social services, and education.
This is an injustice, but the solution is not the commuter tax. Why should someone who lives in Nassau County and works in Manhattan be any more responsible for someone in a nursing home in New York City than someone who lives in Nassau County and works in Nassau County? Even if it is the PARENT of that person who lives and works in Nassau who is the person on Medicaid in New York City?
In every other state, the ENTIRE cost of Medicaid and social services is divided between the federal government and the state, with no local share. The commuter tax was a pittance compared with the local burden of these services.
Which commuters and residents have equal access to.
My point exactly.
In most of the country, the state government covers much more of the cost of education and social services than New York, and tax burdens and school spending are far more equal. This fiscal fairness is the rule, ironically, in the "red states."
In the Northeast, on the other hand, the state provides less money, and local governments are more on their own. That's why New Jersey's local taxes are so high -- its state taxes are low. New Hampshire is an extreme example.
In New York we have this bizzare hybrid, designed to screw NYC. The affluent suburbs don't want services funded statewide, only in their own little enclave, so while New York's state taxes are below average (as a share of its residents' income) its local taxes are off the charts. Like other Northeast States. However, since much of Upstate is poorer than NYC, all the state funding formulae are rigged to direct much of what the state does spend up there, taxing the city to pay for it. When it comes to inequality, there is NOTHING like New York State, the most "liberal" and "Democratic" state in the United States. And, we spend more on top of it.
Commuters from other places in New York State are entitled to borrowing privileges at libraries.
Is an "out-commuter" (to use Larry's term) entitled to borrowing privileges at suburban libraries? (Not that the two are equivalent -- the NYPL is among the most extensive library systems in the world.)
A Branch Libraries' card is free to anyone who lives, works, pays property taxes, or attends school in New York State. Others may apply, with payment of a $100 annual fee, for a nonresident library card.
See the 2001 annual report.
Brooklyn still has Sunday hours at the branches which had them before.
Untrue. Many of New Yorks suburbs are just as diverse as New York City. Sure there are plenty of "rich-only" suburbs, but to say that NYC is more diverse than any of it's suburbs is false. There are more economically diverse commuites on Long Island than there are "rich-only" communities. There are plenty of economically diverse suburbs on Long Island, and all the suburbs have their share of poor.
Bay Shore and North Bay Shore
Amityville and North AMityville
Babylon and Wyandanch-Dix Hills
Bellport/Bellport Village and North Bellport/Pace Park
Patchogue and East Patchogue
"South" East Patchogue and "North East Patchogue/Pace Park"
Hicksville-Westbury and New Cassel
Medford and Gordon Heights
Garden City and Hempstead
Islip and Central Islip
Bay Shore and Brightwaters
Quogue and Quiogue
Flanders and
....and the list goes on, these are just a few that I can think of just off the top of my head, and doesn't even attempt to include NYC's other suburbs like Westchester and Conn.
Why should suburban commuters support the suburban slums (and yes there are plenty that would even rival Bedford-Stuyvesant on a suburban scale) and NYC's poor?
For at least eight hours each weekday, commuters enjoy the same city-provided services as I do, except for borrowing privileges at libraries. Shouldn't they also provide a fraction of the funding?
Yes, and they also help support the economy of Manhattan, without them many business would go out of business, or hurt without them, right down to a guy standing on the corner with his hot dog stand. Sure, city residents use these services too, but the full economy includes the commuters also in many parts of the city. Why do you want more businesses to leave New York City for the suburbs? I hate to see that. There are many hubs on Long Island and Westchester that have already "stolen" businesses from the city.
New York City is an economically diverse city, far more than any of its suburbs. The rich of NYC support the poor of NYC -- fine, but why are rich suburbanites let off the hook (because they live in upper-class suburbs)?
Untrue. Many of New Yorks suburbs are just as diverse as New York City. Many commutities outside of the city are more diverse than many parts of Queens. Sure there are plenty of "rich-only" suburbs, but to say that NYC is more diverse than any of it's suburbs is false. There are more economically diverse commuites on Long Island than there are "rich-only" communities. There are plenty of economically diverse suburbs on Long Island, and all the suburbs have their share of poor.
Bay Shore and North Bay Shore
Amityville and North AMityville
Babylon and Wyandanch-Dix Hills
Bellport/Bellport Village and North Bellport/Pace Park
Patchogue and East Patchogue
"South" East Patchogue and "North East Patchogue/Pace Park"
Hicksville-Westbury and New Cassel
Medford and Gordon Heights
Garden City and Hempstead
Islip and Central Islip
Bay Shore and Brightwaters
Quogue and Quiogue
Flanders and Westhampton
....and the list goes on, these are just a few that I can think of just off the top of my head, and doesn't even attempt to include NYC's other suburbs like Westchester and Conn.
Why should suburban commuters support the suburban slums (and yes there are plenty that would even rival Bedford-Stuyvesant on a suburban scale) and NYC's poor?
For at least eight hours each weekday, commuters enjoy the same city-provided services as I do, except for borrowing privileges at libraries. Shouldn't they also provide a fraction of the funding?
Yes, and they also help support the economy of Manhattan, without them many business would go out of business, or hurt without them, right down to a guy standing on the corner with his hot dog stand. Sure, city residents use these services too, but the full economy includes the commuters also in many parts of the city. Why do you want more businesses to leave New York City for the suburbs? I hate to see that. There are many hubs on Long Island and Westchester that have already "stolen" businesses from the city.
What he pointed out makes the opposite point that he claims. New York City IS far more diverse than the suburbs, because the suburbs are segregated, with rich and poor in separated into separate taxing jurisdictions. Thus, the wealthly of Garden City don't have to pay school taxes to educate the poor of Hempsted. Not true of Manhattan. That's why some in the Manhattan Institute advocate breaking the city into smaller towns, and letting the disabled and dependent poor tax the working poor into dire poverty.
I've used this point against "liberals" that complain that New York City has more inequality than other places. That's because both rich and poor live within its borders. I ask them "do you want New York City to be like Newark and drive out the rich, or like Greenwich and push out the poor?" Either way, equality would increase if one only lived in a community with "people like us."
Not necessarily. The lion's share of our property taxes go to the Patchogue-Medford school district. It encompasses middle class areas, some quite well-off places, and the poor sections of East Patchogue.
Sounds like the well off places need to do what well off places in the suburbs do -- break off into separate jurisdictions. Maybe folks out there are too concerned with the attempt by the wealthy East End to break off from Suffolk County to pay attention to local segregation actions.
That is absolutely totally false in many circumstances (although true in a few). And since I have the day off, I did some legwork for you:
Here is ONE example of many LI communites, although a bit more extreme than many. Below you will see photos of a suburban slum. Average home price, about $125-150000.
Below that find a photo of about a ten minute walk away. Average home price, about $895--995,000.
They share the same shops:
The same zip code, the same name, the same schools, the same library, the same taxing district, etc, etc. In fact, the first photo is taken on the same street as the forth photo. Of course there is a transition area in between, (home prices about $250-350000), it is ONE community, and more diverse in every way than most Queens neighborhoods.
And to keep this on topic, here's a photo of the railroad station they share.
And before someone throws in the "other side of the tracks", although some of the "slum" photos were taken on "the other side of the tracks", one was taken on the "right" side of the tracks. And finally, who do you think owns a major portion of the homes in the "$895,000 and up area - MANHATTAN RESIDENTS.
I can't even follow that (but given the overlapping complexity of suburban jurisdictions that's to be expected). Do all the areas you photographed pay the same taxes into the same governments and share the same services? Most importantly, do they share the same schools (since that's the most expensive non-county service)?
They share the SAME schools, shopping, library (through the school tax), etc. The average tax in the bad area is about $3,500-$4,000. In the "good" area it is about $6,000 and up, except that there is an additional village tax (about $500-600) imposed on them if they are "in the village" which is only a small fraction of Bellport (and doesn't cover much of the "good" area of Bellport), and the only thing that is different for them is that the "village" maintains the roads and picks up the garbage in that case, and they have access to a private ocean beach, otherwise everything else is taxed the same.
The schools. ALl the kids are joined in all the schools. Elementary schools all in the good area, intermediate school in the bad area, back to the good area for the Bellport High School which is neither in North Bellport or Bellport Village, but in between.
Then I'd have to say that's a fairly economically diverse area. Once again, I do not believe this is typical of suburban counties in the Metro Area. Roosevelt/Garden City is, in my view.
(The average tax in the bad area is about $3,500-$4,000. In the "good" area it is about $6,000 and up, except that there is an additional village tax (about $500-600) imposed on them if they are "in the village" which is only a small fraction of Bellport (and doesn't cover much of the "good" area of Bellport), and the only thing that is different for them is that the "village" maintains the roads and picks up the garbage.)
Much lower than my local taxes, up around $10,000 if the city income tax is included, AND those in Brownstone Brooklyn receive perhaps the biggest property tax break from the special deal for homeowners in the city. Otherwise I'd be paying much more. And, of course, I have to pay for my children to receive an education on top of that.
I'll address the blackmail point. Yes, commuters help the city's economy. That doesn't mean the city should be bribing commuters by giving them free services. If the commuters are unwilling to pay for the services they use, then perhaps they're not so great for the city's economy after all.
A commuter tax would have two very positive effects: first, it would open up jobs to city residents; second, it would either reduce the city's tax rate or improve city services, encouraging some of those commuters to move into the city.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Why doesn't anyone fret over all the lost jobs due to state commuter taxes?
As for out of state commuter taxes, I don't know enough about it to make a knowledgable answer. For one thing though, it's a bit different than Nassau-Suffolk-Westchester vs the city than New Jersey-Conn vs the city. For one thing, we all pay New York State income tax whereas NJ and Ct residents don't. So someone who "makes money in the city" is still keeping their income in the state if they live in a NY suburb.
Now replace "New Jersey" with "NYC suburb" and "New York State" with "New York City," and assume that a city commuter tax has been reinstated. How is your answer different?
His New Jersey income tax will stay the same, but he'll be allowed a $500 credit for the New York income tax. The bottom line is that his total state income tax liability will be unchanged, it's just that he'll have to file two state returns.
Now we see why any mention of a city commuter tax yields endless whining, while a state commuter tax is fine. For all the lofty arguments put forth, the real reason suburbanites object to a city commuter tax is that it might actually cost them some money. State commuter taxes are fine, because they don't actually increase anyone's tax liability.
Similarly, nobody would complain about a city commuter tax if only the state were as generous to the city as it is to other states and credited commuters for the commuter tax paid to the city.
True only within NYS.
A NJ resident earning $x in NJ is likely to pay less state income tax than the same NJ resident earning $x in NYS. Not sure if it's true at all incomes, but it's certainly true at a wide range.
As for out of state commuter taxes, I don't know enough about it to make a knowledgable answer. For one thing though, it's a bit different than Nassau-Suffolk-Westchester vs the city than New Jersey-Conn vs the city. For one thing, we all pay New York State income tax whereas NJ and Ct residents don't. So someone who "makes money in the city" is still keeping their income in the state if they live in a NY suburb.
For NYS non-NYC residents, it was an obvious surcharge: first you pay your regular NYS tax, then you pay this extra piece.
For NJ and CT residents the outcry was always far lower. If you work in NYS, whether in NYC or not, you fill out your form and pay your tax. However, the NYC portion was still always an extra line item, so it was very heavily flagged.
It might have been better if there had been 2 totally separate non-resident income tax return forms, one for those who work in NYC and one for those who don't.
When these outcommuters are working, however, they're bringing money back into the city and giving its economy a boost.
The city would be better off the businesses that employ them were in the city as well. In part blame the suburbs for this, but in part blame the city for zoning out the retail and service jobs that the suburbs zone in. The working-class city residents working in the suburbs aren't just servicing suburbanites, they are servicing city residents who are burning all kinds of gasoline to get there. The suburbanites keep the taxes.
One example. My wife wants a new, cheap couch for the basement, since our old one died. She has one picked out -- from IKEA. So eventually I'm going to have to haul my rear out to Long Island to buy it, paying LI sales tax and driving an hour each way.
IKEA wants to open a store in Red Hook. The neighbors oppose on "environmental" and "traffic" grounds, and because low wage retail jobs arent' the ones the city wants anyway. Hmmm.
And when you buy the couch from IKEA it'll fall apart in a year, just like ours did. IKEA is "cheap" in more than one way.
They do have pretty decent Swedish meat balls in the store cafe, however.
One cable has been out for several years and Amtrak and commuter railroads are relying on the last functioning line. Temporary repairs are under way on the cable disabled by the blackout.
"We hope to have that finished in the next couple of weeks," Black said. "That one cable is holding out. If that fails before the second one is patched, we'll have a real problem on our hands
SEE FULL ARTICLE AT CNN MONEY:
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/03/news/companies/amtrak.reut/
Simply put:
NY Penn is gonna be bottled up BIG TIME if that last cable gives way before the temporary repairs on cable # 2 are done.
*knocks on wood*
Here is the story.
Never mind that the booth was shut anyway on a holiday, the ENTIRE entrance should be closed, period.
That's just bull. They do it in plenty of stations right in front of the S/A.
Scums will always be scums and hustle rides anywhere they want to be, it's one of the many reasons why we are paying the price for the $2 fare.
DA's and cops don't like it when one of their own is victimized. This guy's in more trouble than he realizes.
Was there a full moon or something? There were so many unfortunate incidents in and around Flatbush the night before the West Indian Parade.
In Connecticut several years ago, a young woman was abducted from a supermarket parking lot and murdered. About a week later, before her body had been found, the murderer was arrested when he tried to use one of her credit cards. Prominently displayed on the entrance door of the store where he tried to use the card was a large "missing" poster with the woman's name and picture. So yes, criminals can be stupid.
By the way, the Connecticut moron is now on Death Row.
Yelling he was framed?
The rapist that was apprehended by a sharp eyed officer in Brooklyn have a rap sheet longer than your arm. So, the State parole Board is the biggest laughter since The Joker and the Riddler teamed up in the original 1966 campy film "Batman".
Crooks know that it will take time for police to respond. More times than not enought time to get away.
I think the thug had a little something to do with it.
Never mind that the booth was shut anyway on a holiday
That contradicts the premise of the post.
This is the rule that proves the rule. The part time booths were only open during the times when security was NOT an issue, when the station was full of passengers. The crime takes place when traffic is lower, and people can be isolated.
You want lower crime? Give the station agents police radio, and make them get out of their booths and patrol the entire stations.
Ah yes, force the station agents out of the booth with no weapon or way to defend themselves... I'm sure a crook won't hold them at knifepoint, forcing the agent to let the crook into the booth (the agent has to have keys to get back in), so that he can steal ALL the cash.
There's a reason why SAs (the few that are left) are behind bulletproof glass, thick walls and securely locked doors. Making a rule to forcing them to leave the booth goes against all logic.
SA's require the protection of the booth because they handle cash. If all fare sales were done through MVM's, SA's could be assigned to station-patrol duties without being put in any more danger than passengers in general. They would not handle cash or have access to the MVM's.
Even if they don't deal with money, they're still more vulnerable and less able to help outside of the booth. If a criminal is going to commit a crime and they see the roaming SA, they're likely to threaten the SA as well, meaning the SA won't be able to use his radio until after the ordeal. An SA in a booth, assuming he can see the crime, whether because it happens in front of his booth (stupid criminals), or because he's watching through cameras placed throughout the station, can call police on the radio without fear of being threatened/killed by the criminal.
If the S/A isn't relying on cameras, then he isn't seeing much. At a typical local station, a few carlengths of the platform are visible. At any station more complex, none of the platforms and few of the passageways and staircases are visible.
There are three roles assigned to the S/A: customer service agent, sales agent, and security agent. All three can be done better. The token booth as it exists today is not holy.
PUT BACK the news stands, the donut shops, McDonalds, etc...
It is the presence of people that provides security. The guy in the news stand has never had any problem giving directions to lost geese, and is better at it than a token clerk in a glass box where the goose must wait in line to ask a question that can hardly be understood while others wait impatiently behind him.
A fast food place with some seating, and a (clean) restroom, and an employee to pick up after customers also provides both security and a potty.
And the TA collects rent from them all.
Win Win... except for the bigwigs who must devote cereberal energy to making the project happen!
Elias
Thank you Jane Jacobs. Here is the problem. That works for Time Square, Grand Central, etc. -- if there is room in the stations -- during the busy hours. But Bullhockey! the real risk of something really bad happening (rape, robbery with violence, murder) is in the OFF hours in the LESS traveled stations. No one is going to put a donut shop in Lawrence Street Station AND have it open on Labor day, let alone 3 am.
Every little idea helps something.
Elias
The presence of a roaming SA is likely to deter many criminals. No, that won't happen every time, but it can help.
Then station agents are not useful now that they are no longer needed to sell tokens, and should be phased out. No more should be hired. with the savings, the TA can hire a new class of worker -- "security guards" -- and the passengers would be much better off.
Note that the station personnel in Washington DC, a MUCH more dangerous place than NYC, are outside the booth. I'm not sure if they are armed or not (DC folks feel free to jump in here). But having a uniformed guard moving around a station would make people much more secure than having a clerk who no longer does clerking in a booth.
What this says is that the TA should create two new titles -- station guards and customer service agents -- and begin hiring into them. Customer service agents would be in booths in MAJOR stations, and in a service center where they can talk to passengers in other stations via an intercom (located next the maps).
The Guards could also be taught to give directions, but would mostly be there to deter crime, report suspicious activity, and provide assistance in emergencies. They could go to the platform if there was a sick passenger, report to the police any hoods loitering in the stations in the off hours, and prevent vandalism and graffiti. All things station agents cannot do, unless it happens right in front of their booth. Every station could have one guard all the time.
I once needed to use the restroom while railfanning. I went to Union Square, but the men's room in the mezzanine was locked. So I asked the S/A if she'd let me in after I used the one in Starbuck's upstairs. She said no, claimed that she hadn't seen me leave fare control at all, so I'd have to pay to reenter right then. I continued arguing as the line behind me grew, and when the line started to complain, she relented.
About 12 years ago, I was on a 1 train that was spending 10 minutes at each station. (Obviously something serious had gone wrong somewhere up the line.) At 79th Street, one passenger asked the S/A if he could have a transfer to the bus. She said that he couldn't, but that he might as well take the bus at that point, since she wasn't going to let him back on the train without paying another fare anyway. (He rightly ignored her and walked through the gate. Ah, for the days of unlocked gates!)
To replace some functions of S/A's (like the ones requested in both of my anecdotes) there would need to be MetroCard readers/encoders near some if not all of the intercoms.
With the intercoms, there are too many people who push the alarm buttons and walk away. Imagine being at home doing impoerant chores. Then phone rings repeatingly and it's all crank calls. Same idea.
The next time you're railfanning and you have to use the toilet at Starbucks or someplace outside of the subway, inform the agent BEFORE leaving the syatem. You'd have a better chance of being allowed to go back in.
I assume he would do this at one of the many staffed booths inside fare control?
The subway was effectively not running. There were block tickets 12 years ago. That's what this passenger was asking for.
But what he was asking for is not relevant. He was charged $1.25 to ask a simple question, since the only person he could ask was outside fare control
With the intercoms, there are too many people who push the alarm buttons and walk away. Imagine being at home doing impoerant chores. Then phone rings repeatingly and it's all crank calls. Same idea.
No, very different idea. I'm not paid to sit home and answer the phone. Customer service agents are paid to sit in an office and answer the phone. Some of those calls will be hangups. Such is life.
The next time you're railfanning and you have to use the toilet at Starbucks or someplace outside of the subway, inform the agent BEFORE leaving the syatem. You'd have a better chance of being allowed to go back in.
But the agent is outside fare control. I can't say a word to the agent until I've left fare control. In this case, I spoke to her as soon as I left fare control (after she finished up with the previous customer), and she claimed that I hadn't come from inside fare control after all.
I did wave to the S/A. I thought I had her attention. She denied it. She was busy with another customer so I didn't expect much of a reaction. And how am I supposed to get the S/A's attention if she's asleep or busy reading a book?
Why should passengers have to go through such contortions when they could instead have customer service phones inside fare control?
"About 12 years ago, I was on a 1 train that was spending 10 minutes at each station. (Obviously something serious had gone wrong somewhere up the line.) At 79th Street, one passenger asked the S/A if he could have a transfer to the bus. She said that he couldn't, but that he might as well take the bus at that point, since she wasn't going to let him back on the train without paying another fare anyway. (He rightly ignored her and walked through the gate. Ah, for the days of unlocked gates!)"
You also just said:
"She was busy with another custome."
So how she be:
"...asleep or busy reading a book?"
Wave at the agent from inside the turnstile to get her attention. Speak up a little to be heard. Not enough that she hears you. But enough so that she can't hear you. If the agent waves you over to the booth, you go over and ask your question. If she refuses to let you back in, call up on her. If she noticed you enough to wave you over to the booth, she should let you back in.
You'll be in just as much of a pickle if you're out of sight of the S/A locked away in the booth.
Not likely, unless the crime happened to take place directly in front of the booth.
They might also notice somebody running out of the subway carrying a wallet or a pocketbook and start wondering if something happened.
There are lots of people who run out of the subway carrying wallets and pocketbooks. They're usually the owners of those wallets and pocketbooks who happen to be in a hurry. Do you call the police whenever you see somebody in a hurry?
Then again we're talking about a crime happening at an end of a station that has a closed booth with no one in there anymore.
No, we're talking about a crime happening anywhere out of view of an open, functioning booth, with a live, awake, attentive agent inside it. That could mean anywhere else along the platform -- the end of the platform with no exit, the end of the platform with a boothless exit, the end of the platform with the part-time exit (which is invariably closed and unattended when the risk of crime is greatest). That could mean anywhere at all on any platform not located at the same level as the booth. That could mean any passageway, staircase, or elevator. The S/A will not be aware of any crime that occurs in any of those areas -- as criminals are well aware.
I have been at busy booths where crowds of people were coming out off the train. If I noticed a person in the crowd tearing out of there with a pocketbook in his hand, I'd think something had just happened and be alert to a woman who might be coming to the window complaining about a bag snatch. A guy who runs by the booth carring a ladies' bag especially by anything except the handle seems a little suspicious to me.
Unless, maybe, you're working Christopher Street on the IRT :)
Peace,
ANDEE
I could see why an SA wouldn't want to (if I was an SA it might give me pause as well) but after at train came through it would be nice if an employee swept through the station, checking the entrances, to make sure no one was being attacked. Wouldn't have helped the young woman who was brutalized around the corner from me -- she was followed and attacked on the street. But it might make customers who are the only ones going up a stair feel a little better about it.
And the S/A in the booth at the other end of the platform is of no help in this case, either. With roving security guards, at least there's a chance that a professional will see what happened, and with emergency buttons scattered around the station, another passenger doesn't have to walk far to summon help.
Wave at the agent from inside the turnstile to get her attention. Speak up a little to be heard. Not enough that she hears you. But enough so that she can't hear you. If the agent waves you over to the booth, you go over and ask your question. If she refuses to let you back in, call up on her. If she noticed you enough to wave you over to the booth, she should let you back in.
Again, that's not always possible. Even where it is, how is it preferable to force passengers to go through that rigamarole rather than pick up a customer service phone or ask the customer service agent whose job it is to walk around the station, inside and outside fare control, specifically to answer questions?
S/A's used to sell fares. The bulk of that task has shifted to the machines. S/A's can't sell SingleRides, S/A's can't sell Fun Passes, S/A's don't accept credit or debit cards. S/A are now primarily customer service agents (and, if we believe the hype, security agents), not sales agents. Sales agents belong in locked booths where people buy fares; customer service agents and security agents don't. If S/A's have any future at all, it's outside the booths.
I disagree with you. There are still customers that come to the booth window to ask for the different kinds of metrocards. Not to mention people asking for directions, change of a dollar or a $20 bill or a subway map. S/A's don't sell single rides, fun passes and don't take credit or debit cards. But they sell everything else that a customer wants. $4 cards, $10 cards, 7 and 30 day cards. Some agents have the time to read. But in alot of places they don't have the time to. But you probably know that already.
And if you're on the floor at the subway entrence at 87/B'way at 2 am, No way the agent at 86 Street is going to hear you. She won't hear you moaning or yelling unless someone activates the talkback system. How long the security guard comes by will be the next topic to discuss in this thread.
Distributing maps and giving directions are examples of customer service. Customer service needn't take place in a locked booth.
And if you're on the floor at the subway entrence at 87/B'way at 2 am, No way the agent at 86 Street is going to hear you. She won't hear you moaning or yelling unless someone activates the talkback system. How long the security guard comes by will be the next topic to discuss in this thread.
Good thing that there's a part-time booth right there at 87th and Broadway! If I keep moaning another 4½ hours, the S/A who unlocks the gate at 6:30am for the morning rush will hear me. (That's assuming this happens on a weekday morning. If it's a weekend, I have to keep moaning until Monday morning.)
If the agent in the locked booth at the other end of the platform is replaced with a roving security guard and a roving customer service agent, somebody might spot me in a bit less than 4½ hours.
I beg to differ. There are people going to the MVM's. But there are people still going to the booth window. Sometimes they have to be refered to the MVM's. But alot of times customers want a card at the window.
If you want a subway map, you're going to get it quickly from the agent in the booth. Assuming of course there are maps at the booth. Sometimes booths run out of maps and have to be ordered. It'll take anywhere from a few hours to a few days. A person at the other end of the Customer service telephone will not give you a map any sooner than a few business days from the time you ask.
If you're lying on the ground at the subway entrance at 87/B'way and the guard is busy doing other security work at the uptown side at 86 St, you're going to be there for a while if no one comes by. If someone did, it doesn't mean they'll help either.
I'm certain that the WMATA station agents are unarmed. Even so, their presence - outside locked booths, that is - probably does help deter crime. In most instances, criminals don't like having too many people around. Especially someone with a radio who can contact the police.
So does a 911 operator.
You dial 911, you make a call and 911 receives it.
Then what?
The 911 operator must then call the correct service (Fire, Police, or EMT) or else must dispatch the correct service his/herself. That the 911 operator is also the dispatcher works fine in Dickinson, North Dakota (you want an ambulance, she pages me.) but I cannot see it working very well in NYC where there must be hundreds more calls than you would expect in Stark County.
So after you dial 911, the operator must forward or connect your call to the correct dispatcher.
Elias
If there's nobody around who can call 911 or push a red button, then there's certainly nobody around who can walk the length of the platform to alert the S/A.
The GUARD has the radio, not the customer. The Guard patrols the station. If he or she sees something, or if he or she is summoned to a location by someone hitting a button, the Guard uses the radio to call police/fire/ambulance.
The same as if you've been mugged and left for dead in abandoned part of the station and the station agent is elsewhere in the station sitting idly in a booth. Except if there's no booth, the victim has a chance that the guard isn't elsewhere in the station and will be able to help.
As for selling swipes, I wasn't sure that it was illegal.
I did it once, sort of. Someone got on the bus without change or a MetroCard. She didn't need a transfer, so I offered to swipe in exchange for $2 cash.
I also once swiped a stranger in at a HEET with an unlimited. He and his wife had just bought two rides. The wife got in but he pushed the HEET from too far back, forfeiting the fare. I casually walked up to the HEET, swiped, and went on my way. (I didn't ask for compensation, of course.)
Yes, based on the rule that they are not transferable, and the TA does not want people without them to get the discount or you to collect the extra revenue instead of the agency.
But the TA will focus enforcement more on the unlimited cards, because crooks don't make money selling swipes on PPR cards.
This new line would alleviate traffic on the Queens Blvd line, and give the areas in between direct midtown access, most of which don't have it now. It would be a viable alternative to the J, which many Jamaica riders have an aversion to if they have a choice between it and the E.
Well, of course this has very little chance of happening in any of our lifetimes, or grandchildren's lifetimes, but it's nice to imagine it.
No sooner did I finish posting that I thought : what about interaction with the Q and W at Myrtle and Flatbush Avenues, and should the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station there be reactivated, what about the zoetrope that was there in the early 80's, etc. I get weary thinking about this, because downtown Brooklyn seems an even bigger "bowl of spaghetti" subway-wise than downtown Manhattan.
I too thought of the IND "second system" plans for a Myrtle Avenue subway.
I think a subway under the entire length of Myrtle Avenue would face objections from Upper Ridgewood and Glendale residents, who would want to keep those areas two-fare zones, using the old argument that
subways bring in the undesirable element. Ditto the affluent part of
Richmond Hill along Myrtle Avenue from Park Lane South to 116th Street. Then there's the environmental lobby screaming nonsense, blasphemy, sacrilege, how dare you spoil Forest Park, and the engineering challenges of tunneling under Jackie Robinson Parkway and the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch easement.
I'm not saying your full Myrtle Avenue subway shouldn't be done. I'm merely stating what I think some objections would be.
If the NYC idea isn't logical, the Light Rail could run the other way up Flatbush to Grand Army P{laza and loop around. That way it could service the LIRR terminal too.
Then that's where it can go from El to subway. Connecting it with the M would allow it to continue to Metropolitan Av, and maybe even as far as LGA.
The subway portion would run to Franklin Av then turn south, become elevated again, and connect with the S. It would run on the S tracks to the Q, and continue on the Q to Coney Island. So now you've got a subway/el from Coney Island to LGA via Brooklyn and Queens.
If someone could lay an inexpensive trolley line like the used to, and then run it up on the Myrtle ROW, that might work. There are lots of roads parallel to Myrtle to pick up the displaced motor vehicle traffic, and few major north-south roads that cross it at grade east of Flatbush.
The option discussed here long ago is a subway from tracks E3 and E4 on the Crosstown east of Bedford/Nostrand to Myrtle east of Broadway. The Mytle would then terminate at Church. That's still a lot of construction for not a lot of riders.
Why? The Montague Tunnel can handle the M, R, and "P", unless you have this "P" running at a four-minute headway, which seems extraneous...
If anything, the TA would probably build a crossover at Wyckoff and reduce the M to a shuttle from Metropolitan to there, with Central and Knickobocker being torn down, to alleviate switching with the Broadway El. And we all know what happens to shuttles... :(
Plan 2: The new line would be connected to the Rutgers tunnel (a bit harder as the rutger tunnel point in the opposite direction from where the Myrtle line would come from), and run up 6th Ave, probably merged with the V.
It's not that hard to connect to Rutgers from Myrtle. According to my Brooklyn Bus Map, Myrtle and Jay Streets appear to "intersect" at a sixty-degree angle (although it might be more of an S-curve since Myrtle ends short of Jay).
This new line would alleviate traffic on the Queens Blvd line, and give the areas in between direct midtown access, most of which don't have it now. It would be a viable alternative to the J, which many Jamaica riders have an aversion to if they have a choice between it and the E.
Well, of course this has very little chance of happening in any of our lifetimes, or grandchildren's lifetimes, but it's nice to imagine it.
David
Does anyone know what the route of the IND Myrtle - Central route was suppossed to take and what lines were to connect to from it ?
I'm not sure, but I believe it was to connect with the South 4th St Subway and the Crosstown Line at the south end, and the Metropolitan Av/Conduit/Somethingelseidontknow Subway at the north end. [This is the line that would've used the existing lower level at Roosevelt Avenue.]
An Orientation Gallery featuring the Museum's 27-year-old mission and setting, plus a history of the MTA and its agencies.
A central gallery houses the exhibit "On the Streets: New York's Trolleys and Buses." A history in nine segments of surface transit in the City from the early 1800s.
For kids: an open 12-seat bus, a child-sized trolley, and a refurbished 1960s bus cab; "Clearing the Air" exhibit; and more than 50 detailed models by Dr. George T. F. Rahilly of every trolley that ever ran in Brooklyn.
Exhibition sidebars cover Frank Sprague and Granville Woods.
Enhanced exhibits include a history of fare collection, and "Elevated City: A History of the Els in New York," remounted from the GCT Gallery Annex. Also the "Steel, Stone and Backbone" exhibit has been reinstalled.
On the subway platform, the exhibit "Moving the Millions: New York City's Subways from its Origins to the Present," gives an overview of NYC's massive rapid transit system.
On the adjacent tracks, almost all of the Museums outstanding collection of vintage subway and elevated cars are displayed in mint condition.
Story on CNN.com.
www.thepotterprofile.com
Sounds almost as bad as our buses.
--Z--
Also, if I remember correctly, the bus analogy doesn't end there. The trains had a pull cord like a bus to signal a desire to stop.
The "D" Green Line is the only true subway stem to stern. The "B", "C" and "E" lines are subways when underground only; otherwise, they're "trolleys" (i.e., buses on rails).
Correct, so cutting six stops on a bus route will just make it inconvient for the public. I found it interesting that a politian said he took the bus because it was faster ... must have been a Express bus with extra fare ?
Another point six stops collect 2,500 folks a day, got to be a bunch of seniors & disabled amoung them, so that alone should kill the plan.
Forcing 2500 people to walk an extra block is not a major hardship. Many of these people most likely live in between both stops for the large majority they are not walking any further then before
A none issue to 90% of the people affected while helping 100% of the riders.
I was shocked the first time I went to boston how long it took to get to BC from government center.
That is why everytime I hear all the money wasted on Light Rail it makes me laugh. Once the public realizes that most light rail projects are just glorified bus routes and just as slow, they will not use them as well. Not to mention the increased operating costs
So, how do you justify/improve them vs. bus-substitute ?
- Once they are in place they are cheeper to maintain then a bus.
- Once you get to a private ROW you could make them limited stops,
provided you repalce those missed stop with a bus feeder system.
- On the privet ROW you could add high platforms to reduse the dwell times.
- create some kind of passing track for full cars.
I don't have a problem with a light rail making all or most local stops where there is no private ROW, but once they are full everybody on board wants to get to their destination (well you would have to make a study to see if there were a couple of intermediate stops required). e.g. a passing track, third track, wrong rail for a block or two.
Once light rail is in place, it is not cheaper to maintain than a bus. (To the transit authority) Bus incurs no ROW maintenance costs and the life cycle costs of a bus is lower, and the bus has no catenary, no substations...
Once you get to a private ROW, there would be no point in making limited stops, since private ROW tends to have longer station spacing, and anyway private ROW tends to be constructed in the downtown where demand density is high and that's exactly where you want more stops per square mile.
Passing track for full cars are useless since there is no point waiting for the car to get full before doing anything about it. Transit is supposed to maintain all cars with equal loadings and all cars with equal headways.
AEM7
Well that depends on how far back you get before you look at it, i.e. the T is a City operation with taxpayer footing the bill.
So you & I pay for ROW (roads/tracks) costs. A bus has more moving parts & potholes salt etc. causes a lot of shop work. I think it can be proven that a trolley cost less to maintain then a bus.
"... Passing track for full cars are useless since there is no point waiting for the car to get full before doing anything about it. Transit is supposed to maintain all cars with equal loadings and all cars with equal headways ..."
Let return to the subject of the thread. If you want to get cars from Boston College to Park Street quicker, some should have a way to skip stop or go express. HBLR is doing that on a two track line by wrong railing.
In addition, the useful life of a bus is shorter than that of an LRV. What are the numbers? I think a buses last an average of seven years, while LRVs can last many decades. The PCCs ran for fifty years in some cases. SEPTA's Kawasakis are over twenty years old and still going strong. An LRV is an up-front capital investment that pays off in the long-term.
Mark
Bus asset life = 12 years
Light rail asset life = 25 years
Trackless trolley asset life = 25 years
Bus cost = $1 million
Light rail vehicle cost = $2.5 million
Trackless trolley cost = $1.5 million
You do the math. Even if you had to buy two buses for every LRV, it's still cheaper to buy the LRV, and even then you're not taking into account of the effect of discount rates. At 7%, $1 million expended in the 13th year is only $419,000 in present value.
AEM7
In 1985, the purchase price of an RTS or a Grumman Flxible, with roughly 40 seats, A/C, a wheelchair lift, and a turbocharged diesel engine was around $140,000-$160,000. This price does not include the farebox or two-way radio.
And around that same time, a subway car of R68 vintage was $850,000.
Buses have come up that much?
The latest procurement of T buses (the LNG dual-mode ones for the Silver Line) were in the $2.5 million range. This number was publicly and widely reported in the Boston Globe around 1999/2000. The diesel versions are cheaper, and are about $1 million a piece.
AEM7
Another reason was they didn't want to have to take down the skyscraper to replace it with a explosion proof building ... there are other reasons.
Buses didn't have to meet 2003 emission standards in 1985.
Then how come we have buses that are 45+ years old on the streets of London?
Light rail asset life = 25 years
Show me these 25-year old LRVs. And I don't mean tourist attractions like the trams in Blackpool. Assuming the same margin of error (375%) as your ideas on how long buses last, is there any major city running 94 year old trollies in regular service?
Bus cost = $1 million
You are taking the piss. (Or have got your figures from someone trying to embezzle a lot of money).
More reasonable figures are:
- minibuses $40,000-$200,000
- regular buses $300,000
- articulated buses $500,000
I do not have figures for double-articulated or double decker buses.
Because you are one backwards country that specializes in asset life extension.
Light rail asset life = 25 years
Show me these 25-year old LRVs.
They're at Riverside Yard in Newton, MA. Go look at them -- take the D-Line to the last stop (you might even get to ride on one).
Oh by the way, San Francisco runs the F-line, which has a fleet of cars some of which are as old as 80 year old, and most of them are PCC's that are in excess of 45 years old.
Bus cost = $1 million
You are taking the piss.
Show me a bus for $300,000 that is Jones Act compliant (meaning final assembly must be performed in the United States). I will happily forward the vendor's details to bus procurement dept at the T and the NYCTA.
AEM7
You mean that nothing Gillig, Flyer, Neoplan USA (Lamar Colorado) or TMC, Roswell, New Mexico (are they bankrupt and part of another company?)costs under $1 million?
If it ain't broke, why replace it?
Show me a bus for $300,000 that is Jones Act compliant (meaning final assembly must be performed in the United States).
How about those new electric ones in Santa Monica that cost $226,000 each?
Anyway, if your country insists on paying their own residents over the odds for a product someone else could build for one-fifth the price, whose country is the backwards one?
A real issue. All the manufacturing jobs moved out of New York, to the southern United States, because New York was a union town with high wages and strict regulations. The result was a catastrophic decline and one million people on welfare.
Why is it, therefore, fair to require New Yorkers to pay higher taxes to buy buses within the United States, when it can raise the living standards of far poorer people abroad -- and its own -- by importing?
Put the price back to $60 for a pair of pants and we could have the garment industry in New York again. Otherwise, the Buy America act is unfair to New Yorkers. We either make it in the world economy, or we go under and no one feels sorry for us.
Actually, I'm glad the buy America regulations are in place. I actually believe it should also apply to household equipment. You're not actually no worse off if you're paid Union wages and you only buy Union made things. The issue becomes a huge one if you are paid Union wages and refuse to buy Union made stuff. That's what happened in New York.
New York working class actually have a choice; they can buy a car and move down South and take the jobs from the Southerners.
Jones Act is here to stay and I hope it stays. America needs a domestic industry base, or it will end up like Europe where everything is bought in, nothing is made, and no one has any money because nobody is doing production anymore. Heavy industry is the economic engine of today, despite all those e-crap you might hear about.
AEM7
Actually, virtually all American union workers now work for the government, because with the government the consumer has no choice. And pretty soon public employees will be the only ones with health benefits and pensions that actually pay.
(New York working class actually have a choice; they can buy a car and move down South and take the jobs from the Southerners.)
Better choice: skip the car and take mass transit. The car and its components could come from anywhere and everywhere. Transit jobs are primarily local, even if the vehicles come from elsewhere. And with the money you save, you can go to restaurants, which also provides more local jobs per dollar spent than average.
Verizon, AT&T, N-Star, Con Edison, Boeing, American, United, Greyhound, ConWay, and not to mention hundreds of thousands of independent contractors nationwide...
You're just hell-bent on knocking the Union -- typical white-collar planners who don't know how merchandize is really made.
AEM7
Utilities, monopolies, subsidized industries all.
(and not to mention hundreds of thousands of independent contractors nationwide...)
Hadn't heard about that.
(You're just hell-bent on knocking the Union -- typical white-collar planners who don't know how merchandize is really made.)
No I'm agreeing with YOUR point. If everyone were in a union and increased their wages by 15 percent, then prices would be 15 percent higher and no one would be better or worse off. Union workers can only get ahead if there is someone to get ahead of -- non-union workers, by buying non-union goods and services.
Even back in the union heyday, the union jobs were primarily white and male, with females and minorities consigned to lower paying sectors with few if any non-wage benefits.
Okay, what I mean is that if you want to construct a building and put the job out to bid, the chances are all the construction companies that bid on it will be Union (at least that is the case in Boston). For instance virtually all electricians are Union, with the non-Union ones being in the minority and usually are one-man shops.
(You're just hell-bent...
No I'm agreeing with YOUR point. If everyone were in a union and increased their wages by 15 percent, then prices would be 15 percent higher and no one would be better or worse off.
I apologize for misunderstanding you. But I think you are overlooking many reasons to belong to an Union besides the wage issue. Sometimes I find Union workforce positively annoying, for example, it is very difficult to fire underperforming workers in an Union situation, and the underperforming workers ought to be re-trained or fired. However, there are other situations when you would want Union protection, for example, I resent the fact that because of my non-Union status, I have to negotiate my own contract and it allows my employer to run me over if they wanted to, since I'm only one person and they could hire out of a much larger labor pool. I am usually able to get by because I'm a tough negotiator (but I definitely don't enjoy having to do it) -- it's the people that are not tough negotiators that I worry about. Companies run them over and they have no choice, except to go unemployed or put up with the uncertainty of having to go out and look for another job. The Union situation removes those ambiguity, in that once you have a job, you have it, the rules are well defined, and they are enforced by supervisors. Much easier than negotiating your own contract and seeing what you could get away with.
My girlfriend worked for a non-Union shop in Penn., and then one in North Carolina. I worked as a non-Union employee at MIT. I wished there was Union protection for her, and for me.
AEM7
(I have to negotiate my own contract and it allows my employer to run me over if they wanted to, since I'm only one person and they could hire out of a much larger labor pool. I am usually able to get by because I'm a tough negotiator (but I definitely don't enjoy having to do it) -- it's the people that are not tough negotiators that I worry about.)
One problem is that workers have no idea what their labor is worth, allowing them to be exploited in an upturn and making them resentful in a downturn. Think about it, capitalists can find the market price of tens of thousands of stocks, bonds and mutual funds each morning just by buying a newspaper. Workers cannot find the market price of their own number one asset.
Now if W-4 forms (the forms all employees fill out when hired for tax witholding purposes) included a couple of more data elements and were better computerized, it would be possible for the IRS to report, say, quarterly the median wage and range for, say, 10,000 combinations of occupation and experience in every labor market in the country. Just have people fill in their actual salary at hire, occupation and years of experience, substituting education for occupation and experience for the young. The volume of information produced would be about the same as that printed by the Wall Street Journal in its quarterly overviews.
I actually wrote in and suggested this, but was ignored (as usual).
I think that's the problem. The U.S. has relied heavily on taking a cut in the value generated by other people's production operations. What happens in an economic recession is that the production people say, "oh, we don't need them conslutants anymore, at least not until we have more money", and bang, you're fired.
Consulting might be economically efficient (as in generates more dollars per man-hour spent) but it is also the easiest to cut and the least inexpendable.
Europe actually relies on service industries to a much greater extent than the U.S. That was one reason for me to bail.
AEM7
However, how would you classify call centers? Call centers are a service industry, and India has a lot of them, so when you get on the phone to buy an airline ticket, or pay some bill, or order pay per view, or discuss your horoscope, you could be talking to somebody in New Delhi.
This represents a service export from India to the the United States. It is growing in leaps and bounds.
For one the disparity between what the boss vs. the workers make. That is getting way out of hand. I have been watching it get worse & worse and waiting for the common non-union man to wake up & say "gee maybe I ought to get a union so the fat cats have to give me some of that money".
Bosses seem interested in only how much they can get out of a company for themselves. They care little about the future of the company & less about it's workers. Case in point, if it cost less to make it outside the US and they know that it will kill the US industry, that's OK with them. I'm talking just about the small group on the top, not the supervisors in the trenches who are dumped on & have little control of their fate.
What industry exists out there for a young man or woman to seek as a life's career ? Doctors, the mapractice is killing them; Lawyers, there are so many they are trippig over each other.
So how do you get to be one of those realy big bosses ? Born with a silver spoon up your but isn't the only way, e.g. Bill Gates
What does this have to do with transit ... "Buy American" it's a joke & isn't going to get any better. Who let this happen, was it the MTA, the Fed. government that killed the US companies ? The big bosses of the mfg. just gave up and either went into another business or took the money & retired.
Let's say that a union is an organization that helps its members earn more, relative to other workers, than they would ever merit based solely on voluntary transactions in the marketplace. What is the most powerful union of them all.
The union of corporate executives and directors.
No way they could actually EARN that much money. That would require that the companies they oversee would perform vastly worse if their places were taken by one of the zillions of other educated, talented, motivated people further down in the ranks. But these guys all sit on each others boards and set each others salaries. Even honest conservative commentators (ie. the pro-free market Economist magazine) are outraged.
In high tax locales like New York, where public employee unions dominate the elections, they brag they can elect their own bosses. Well what about those corporate boards?
Public employee unions should be honored. After ripping us off with a 100 year old method in the 1990s -- watering the stock (with options), high level executives now want something more certain: massive, guaranteed pensions that they get to keep evey after they are sued for fraud.
Also, there is no way they can spend that much money on their own personal needs, so what do they need millions of dollars each year for, AND what are they doing with it ?
Larry your point about the group on the top sitting on each others Boards is a valid one, because they can't get away with this in a corporation with out help from some friends ! As the difference between the classes grows wider & wider, and more & more kids end up in McJobs in the service industry, am I amoung the few who sees what is going on ?
Has every one forgotten about monopolies & rober barrons ? Well, roll the video tape folks & watch some of those History Channel pieces. Looks to me like a certain group has been watching them & taking careful notes :-(
There is another point to be made here, consulting by big industry in the US with foreign industies & governments is a ONE time effort, i.e. after you teach them how to do it they don't need you anymore. The American industrial engine has kept going mainly because we have kept ahead of the rest of the World thru our reasearch & development. This has made our products better & cheeper to make. The better has help us sell American, the cheeper has allowed US plants to be able to keep making it. That requires the group at the top of US business to care about the future of their companies vs. just lining their pockets with as much as they possibily can before the stock holders catch up with them.
The service industry is not a career path to making big money since how much can you add to the price of a product, before someone else comes along to undercut you. How many discount stores can you name that started up, make it big, then lost their way as some new kid on the block stole their business away ? An household name that makes me laugh is Woolworth ... if only they just added drugs to their line maybe they could have given CVS a run for their money ?
I agree with you, but only if purely economic immigration is allowed or even encouraged. Anything else is a false market. Of course the immigration issue could be used to hi-jack 3rd world countries and build an empire, but that is just my megalomaniac tendencies...
I wonder how much the average person could afford to pay for clothes if one only bought as much clothing as one needs, instead of the stuffed closets of rarely-worn garments commonly found in North American homes. (I think I heard on NPR that the Salvation Army recieved around $1 billion per year worth of donated clothing.)
I don't know the answer, but its something to think about.
Mark
I buy almost nothing and my closets are still stuffed. If the prior generation was in the middle class, presents alone load you with things you don't need, even if you beg people not to give them to you (they are trying to drive me out of space-scarce Brooklyn). I think it costs the city more to dispose of stuff than it costs us to buy it.
Mark
When I was a kid & the oldest grandchild I gave all my uncles & aunts a Bic pen for Christmas ... it was the thought that counted & they understood. You couldn't get away with that today.
I buy myself a Christmas present with the money I get. That's one way to do it.
Or alternatively, the question could be put, why not let the cheaper labour from abroad into the territorial area clled the USA if everything has to be built there anyway? So much for free trade!
SEPTA's Kawasakis are over twenty already, and there are no plans to replace them that I know of between now and their silver anniversary.
Mark
This, however, ignores a very important cost -- the value of the land occupied by the ROW. This is the very cost that makes the land-hungry automobile more expensive to the public than transit. If you have a bus going down a street lane every ten minutes, that lane could be used by a host of other vehicles in the intervening minutues. The cost of that ROW is thus shared by more than the transit user -- no wonder the transit provider usually doesn't pay for it. While you could have mixed traffic on an LRV line, this is not as easy, and eliminates some of the benefits of LRV.
So LRV is only a good value in corridors where land use is dense enough, and transit use is high enough, to support very short headways on the LRV line; and a good service only where, paradoxically, motor vehicle traffic is light enough that grade crossings will not serverely slow the line. If the former is not true, you are better off with a bus; if the latter is not true, you are better off with a subway or monorail.
What is interesting here is that more & more cities are thinking BRT, LRV or even subway because their density has risen to the point that downtown business is choaking to death (need more business, but roads are already packed & can't build more, so what to do ?)
The other phenomenom ... light rail works to jump start urban renewal better then more bus service.
The key to a good transit service in areas with congested traffic has to be a private ROW, whether underground or above ground. Whether what travels on the private ROW is a train, an LRV, a trackless trolley or even (gasp) a diesel bus is less important. For some reason, though, vehicles that run on rails seem to have more social acceptability than buses, and thus trains - light or heavy - may be more successful in weaning the more affluent classes from their cars.
There's the rub, at least in the United States. Generally, in cities with extensive unused rail infrastructure (New York isn't one of them), the rail lines pass through old industrial areas filled with rubble, garbage strewn lots, and abandoned buildings. The places where you need rail transit, in contrast, are your downtown, the airport, major recreational areas and gathering facilities such as stadia, and densely populated neighborhoods, particularly those occupied (or potentially occupied) by the (potentially non-car owning) childless young. So you always have this question -- put light rail where it is cheap and easy, or where the market can take off sooner.
(The key to a good transit service in areas with congested traffic has to be a private ROW, whether underground or above ground. Whether what travels on the private ROW is a train, an LRV, a trackless trolley or even (gasp) a diesel bus is less important. For some reason, though, vehicles that run on rails seem to have more social acceptability than buses, and thus trains - light or heavy - may be more successful in weaning the more affluent classes from their cars.)
Agreed on all points. Good thing Newark kept that trolley-subway, as did Philadelphia. Cities that abandoned similar infrastructure made a big mistake -- especially given the cost of putting it back.
But that can help redevelop those places. And you don't have to fight NIMBY...and often the categories of places you cite overlap.
New York does have a partially intact abandoned rail line that runs through an area where transit demand likely would be strong. It is, of course, the High Line on the west side of Manhattan. Needless to say, there are just too many obstacles to its reuse for transit purposes.
I didn't think of that one. If only it were on the East Side!
Then TEAR DOWN THE EAST RIVER!!!
No, seriously, what would be wrong with taking the first 15' of the East River (maybe with a pontoon like structure) and running a lite-rail line on it?
Isn't that what Subtalk's for? Okay, I as much as anyone have had stupid mud-slinging rows in the past, but sensible debates are a lot more use.
One problem is that they never bought rolling stock for the Riverside line. Instead, they eliminated the following lines: North Cambridge; Watertown (via Mt Auburn St); Trapelo Rd and Huron Ave out of Harvard Square and cut the Tremont St line from Egleston back to Lenox St. They later had to eliminate the Tremont St line and then the Watertown line. In many respects, the Riverside's line's "success" was bought, in part, by making the commute on 6 other lines far more difficult. Not quite a win-win slam dunk.
Wasn't the Tremont St Corridor served by the Main Line/Washington St. El?
They later had to eliminate the Tremont St line and then the Watertown line.
The substitution with Trackless Trolleys on the north side and bus on the Watertown Line had very little to do with the lack of cars on the Green Line system. It was mainly a funding issue. Money had to be found from somewhere and there was simply no money to keep all those trolley lines open. Buses and Trackless Trolleys are simply cheaper to run.
The Watertown bus service actually ended up being much better than the Trolleys they replaced. The Trackless Trolley service is what it is, a thinly disguised bus, but
AEM7
Stephen did post some figures from a national transportation database showing that heavy rail (subway) was the cheapest to run per passenger-mile, followed by light rail, followed by buses. Now, these are national figures (averages), so individual situations may be different. Why is Boston different?
"The Watertown bus service actually ended up being much better than the Trolleys they replaced. The Trackless Trolley service is what it is, a thinly disguised bus, but"
OK, that's certainly possible. But trackless trolleys still have one advantage: they don't pollute, and they're very quiet.
Those are two, not one. Here are two more: they accelerate faster than a bus and have a longer service life.
These are operating costs.
AEM7
The other aspects are capital items. Is that what you were referring to? Your posts indicated otherwise.
AEM7
It's really what you mean by service. There were only 3 stops between Boyleston and Egleston on the Main Line Elevated (Dover, Northampton and Dudley). There were many more stops between these two points on the Tremont St car line.
The substitution with Trackless Trolleys on the north side and bus on the Watertown Line had very little to do with the lack of cars on the Green Line system.
You mean it was a coincidence that they abandoned the trolley lines out of Harvard Sq, moved the now surplus cars to the Boyleston St line, converted the Harvard Sq lines to trackless trolleys, bought a set of trackless trolleys with left hand doors and then opened the Riverside line within a month? :-)
The Highland Branch conversion was done on the cheap. All they did was dig a portal onto the Beacon St line and string trolley wire. No provision was made to purchase new cars. The cars were "captured" from the 4 lines running out of Harvard Sq. They did not prove sufficient because of the Riverside lines unexpected success. They then had to canabalize the Tremont St line and eventually the Watertown line. Much of the Green line's car shortage dates from this 1958 decision.
No, I mean that the abandonment decision was INDEPENDENT of whether the Riverside line was being constructed. The decision to abandon the lines were based on the line's ridership and political constituency. The lack of cars on the Green Line system has to do with capital funding, and not the decision to recycle some of the cars.
Some things that may seem connected actually have nothing to do with each other.
AEM7
The first question I'd ask is whether or not eliminating stops will materially speed up the trip. That depends on what is consuming the time. The physical act of stopping and starting adds only 13 seconds to the trip. Thus eliminating 6 stops will save a grand total of 78 seconds, which is less than a drop in the bucket.
If a significant amount of time is spent processing passengers who are boarding and leaving, then moving them to fewer stations will not change the amount of time they take. One would look at ways to improve passenger flow. One problem is the LRV's themselves. Two LRV's have essentially the same capacity of three PCC's. (They used to run 3 PCC's coupled together, when I rode the line.) Trains of both the PCC's and the LRV's have 6 doors. However, because of fare collection only doors with an operator can be used for entrance. This means that boarding times would expected to be 33% more for the LRV's over the PCC's during rush hours. Moreover, for the inbound route, exiting passengers must also leave at a door with an operator. So, it should come as no surprise that loading times would cause a major problem on the LRV's as opposed to the PCC's that they replaced.
Once the public realizes that most light rail projects are just glorified bus routes and just as slow, they will not use them as well.
Back in the 1960's they tried to substitute bus service for local service between BC and Kenmore Sq during rush hours and eliminate local service on the trolley. The experiment was a failure because the local bus took too long to cover the same distance. Passengers objected.
One alternative is to borrow a page from Los Angeles' book. You buy a ticket to ride, or you have a pass. You board the LRV at any door you wish. MBTA police would spot check passengers; anyone without a ticket or pass would be subject to arrest or a $500 summons.
The nominal acceleration and braking rates for the LRV's is 3 mph/sec. Assume an initial velocity of 30 mph. The car will brake in 10 seconds and travel 150 feet. So, will an accelerating train. Thus, an LRV will take 20 seconds to travel 300 feet in stopping and starting. If the train were to travel the same 300 feet at 30 mph, it would take 6.8 seconds. Thus the additional time for stopping is: 20 - 6.8 = 13.2 seconds.
One alternative is to borrow a page from Los Angeles' book. You buy a ticket to ride, or you have a pass. You board the LRV at any door you wish. MBTA police would spot check passengers; anyone without a ticket or pass would be subject to arrest or a $500 summons.
You are implying the the LRV's that the MBTA bought were not suited to their operation vis-a-vis fare collection.
Boston already has a fare collection system that is not POP. You are asking them to implement a separate system for a segment of one of their lines. How would this interface with the rest of the system? Would the rest of the system be converted to POP? It's not an easy solution.
Besides, the police will have a terrible time trying to spot check the passengers during rush hour. The front inbound car was pretty filled up by the time it reached Warren St, even back in 1963-64. I'd usually opt for the 2nd or 3rd car.
The key objection to POP is from the union. They insist in having an operator in the 2nd car of a multi-car LRV train, "for safety." Their primary point is that if someone tries to jump over the coupler between cars (or ride there), the operator can push the Big Red Button and stop the train. Of course, the unstated reason is that POP means fewer operator positions if you don't need an operator in each car.
I don't know the details of the AFC. The bottom line is that fare collection should be quicker than at present. At the very least passengers must be able to enter all doors. The system should be able to credit local passengers who leave before the cars enter the subway. If the system cannot accomodate this then it was underspecified.
The key objection to POP is from the union. They insist in having an operator in the 2nd car of a multi-car LRV train, "for safety."
I'm surprised that the MBTA was able to get OPTO. They used to have one conductor for every 2 cars. It was a state law.
Maybe a religious cleric should investigate this as a possible "miracle."
But both of those ideas require buying new vehicles, and I shouldn't get my hopes up of that happening any time soon.
: (
Mark
Todd, the Union would not object to POP *if* all the 2nd car operators were made into ticket inspectors, with job protection until their scheduled date of retirement. The problem is the taxpayers would never go for that.
To enforce fares properly on the Green Line, you would need about as many ticket-inspectors as there are currently trailerpersons, because trailerpersons are only currently needed in the rush, whereas the ticket inspectors would be needed all day and all night.
The Union isn't the problem. The taxpayer is.
AEM7
The taxpayer, or the politician? :0)
Mark
That's a bit of a large penalty. Is the single fare $7 or something?
Here in Rome, the single fare is €0,77 (ie L 1.500) and the penalty for riding without a valid ticket is €51,00 (ie L 100.000). Even at that differential, you almost never get your ticket checked. The deterrent works at an anmount equal to about $50.
I disagree. I can't speak for the Boston light rail system and it's possible they botched the line with many stops. The stops are often political in nature where a city counsel member will require a stop in "their" district.
We have a similar problem with the Hudson Bergen light rail. The system is developing too many stops as there are now thirteen stations between Bayonne and Hoboken. As a result, there are 10 stops in Jersey City that slows down train to a crawl. It's unfortunate that politics have to get involved in transportation as the Lightrail will exand to 22nd street in Bayonne and beyond.
Who knows? Maybe in 20-30 years, the line will be reconstructed with elevated or subway express tracks added. At least there is a brand new rail line in the area; the possibility of it being build would have been laughed at 20 or 30 years ago.
There are still signal cords/strips in the Green Line trolleys. They're only of use during off-peak times at the outer reaches of the branches, especially during early morning outbound trips.
I've seen operators effectively disable the stop request sign/chime on the Type-7s by holding one of the door close buttons in the "close" position with a piece of paper stuffed between the toggle switch (it's a momentary contact rocker switch) and the console.
There are two differences today from when I regularly commuted (1963).
First, 1/3 of the line was shared with the Watertown line. This meant that there would be fewer cusotmers on the BC cars between Brighton Ave and St Mary's St, including the busy BU stops. They would also run extras during rush hour to Braves Field for good measure.
Second, the PCC's had greater acceleration (4.0 mph/sec vs. the "modern" LRV's 2.8 mph/sec). The PCC's also had greater service braking rates 4.0 mph/sec vs. 3.5. This would be good for around 5 seconds saved by the PCC per stop.
Total stopping and starting time is only around 20 seconds per stop. So, the benefit gained from eliminating 6 stops would be only 2 minutes. OTOH, if the main problem is dwell time, due to running too few cars, then this strategy will not help.
A true streetcar. Not even on a center median like the B and C. Totally at the mercy of cars making left turns, etc. Street not wide enough to give it its own center-median style ROW like Comm Ave and Beacon St could.
Bummer (MBTA did not consider putting it underground...)
Brighton and Watertown still are pretty low rise, and sure were then. Definitely less density than, say, Bayside. I lived 2 blocks from the bus route that replaced the A. Except right on the avenue, everything was 2 family houses. No apartment buildings.
The A-line was discontinued basically because it ran in the middle of the street. Since there was never dedicated right of way, and it was impossible to take space away from autos for a retrofit, the bus is actually more efficient. As a mitigation measure, at the time they put in express buses from Watertown that ran via the Mass Pike to downtown, and put in limited buses that terminated at Kenmore for those people who are not heading downtown. (Between Packards Corner and Kenmore, the #57 is exit-only inbound, and boarding-only outbound). The residents actually preferred bus service.
If the A-line had been retrofitted with dedicated right-of-way (simply by building a fence, excluding the autos, and severely restricted on-street parking -- there is enough space), then there may be a case for its continued operation.
The cost-benefit for building new subways is simply abysmal. If it were up to me and money were no object, I'd sink the B-Line between Kenmore and Packards Corner, making stops only at BU Central, St Paul, and Packards Corner. In terms of benefitting the largest number of people, the most cost-effective 'subway' project in the Boston Metropolitan Area is probably to rebuild the Orange Line elevated; the 'Indigo Line' proposal might come a close second; the Green Line extension to Medford might also be a close second.
May I take this opportunity to disclaim what Jersey Mike claimed in another post. I am an independent transit analyst, and am in no way associated with the MBTA. I do not currently receive a paycheck from the MBTA, and I do not represent the MBTA. Post #559080 will be deleted as soon as Dave checks his email.
AEM7
The Orange Line was rebuilt nearly 20 years ago, albeit shifted over. Is there enough demand to build a new elevated on the original route?
I believe the original 1965 plan was to build I-93 along the current Southwest Corridor railroad/Orange Line alignment. Then the 1972 plan called for all highway construction inside Route 128 to cease, thus the Southwest Corridor was left as bulldozed wasteland until 1983 when Orange Line service arrived to 'make use of a delerict right of way that had already been cleared to makeway for the interstate that was never constructed'.
The original intention of constructing the Orange Line on top of the Southwest Corridor alignment was to kill two birds with one stone; the E-Line Arborway service would cease, and the Main Line Elevated service to Dudley would cease, and people would walk four blocks from the E-Line alignment or from the Main Line Elevated alignment to the new Southwest Corridor Orange Line and pick up the high-quality rapid transit from there.
The actual events: E-Line service never ceased, because people who were going to the hospitals at Heath St and Brigham bitched like hell; people from the Washington St neighbourhoods never walked the four blocks and Orange Line lost ridership (before regaining it due to land use changes around the new corridor); and people never managed to agree on what the 'Roxbury replacement service' would be, thus people in the Washington St corridor were left without transit for 30 years, mitigated only by the #49 bus. But nobody cared, as Dudley had by then become a dump, because of the damage done to it by the construction of the I-95 expressway through Dorchester.
Finally the people of Washington St. corridor got the Silver Line, which works pretty well, except when it gets to New England Medical Center where the street suddenly narrows. At that point it is faster to get off the bus and walk downtown.
Jersey Mike could have told you all this; he was in the Southwest Corridor class with me, and went on the field trip where we saw all this stuff.
AEM7
Couldn't we find a reason to rip up the Cross-Bronx in New York, leave it a dump, then conveniently build a new subway in its place?
I'm being a little facetious here.
Thanks for a great post.
The only problem with your senario is that you will need some sort of rail tunnel to handle the commercial traffic that makes up a large portion of cross bronx expressway volume
I-87 connector project in NJ which opened about 10 years ago was designed to create an alternate route for truck traffic from the south and west to avoid going threough NYC
AEM7
If you don't have decent options, how would you be expected to use them? No one travelsm because no one can.
This does not mean I believe there would necessarily be huge demand, mind you. But there are more assumptions than facts about transit demand crossing the Bronx.
Well, demand forecasting has always been a black art. Currently no one rides the crosstown buses (correction, lots of people do, but they detest it). The only way to find out what the demand is would be to build it and see if they come. But by then, you've sunk the capital.
I say, build it and they will come. It's only a question of how quickly. If you build a gold-plated transit system, the land use will change around it, no matter how terrible the neighbourhood was before. The battle is to maintain it in a gold plated state while the neighbourhood is gentrifying.
The "build it and they didn't come" schemes that failed usually failed because the transit system was built on a cheap ass budget, and it got torn apart by the vandals before anyone decided to invest over there.
As for the Cross-Bronx, if you build it, I don't think they will come for many many years, but they will come quicker to the Bronx than they will come to say Union City, if you did build it, and it wasn't like the Chicago Blue Line where all it is is a median.
AEM7
If middle-income, working Latinos decide to stay on the Bronx on the Grand Concourse rather than leaving for the suburbs, that will be a victory. The Concourse already has a subway, one that is way below capacity.
-Robert King
I'm afraid I have to agree with AEM7. Given the inevitable traffic on the Cross Bronx, anyone who doesn't try an alternative is being incredibly silly. (And any alternative would easily win the race.)
That's supposed to be a better alternative?
While suburbanites may appear dumb with respect to city affairs, you are certainly not stupid from the point of view of signal engineering. You have my sincere apologies, and you have always had my utmost respect on signal and electrical matters. We all have our own expertise w.r.t. whatever we do, and sometimes we all speak out of turn. This is one of those occasions for me, and I apologize for forgetting that intelligent people live on Long Island too.
The only guy I know personally from Long Island is the son of a highway engineer, and he's somewhat autistic. The only guy I know that talks to me about the Cross-Bronx is a (reasonably smart) suburbanite from the New York side of New Jersey. It's not surprising that I am somewhat biased against Long Island suburbanites. Incidentally, I have an even lower opinion of Connecticut suburbanites, but again, that is nothing but a prejudice.
AEM7
That's OK, since some of the Connecticutt snobs actually deserve your prejudice :0)
If you're going from Long Island to Upstate, or much of northern New Jersey, or many other places too, the Cross Bronx is the only reasonable route.
Maybe I've just hit it at bad times, but I've found that route slower than the Cross Bronx. While the Cross Bronx won't win any Beautiful Highway awards, it generally moves at a reasonably decent clip outside of rush hour.
And if there are problems on the Triboro or GCP, there are decent alternates.
I've driven a lot of highways around the city, around the region, around the country. Without a doubt, the CBE is the one most often thoroughly clogged.
The Cross Bronx is only six lanes wide, BTW.
If there are enough HOV's, then it increases the passenger capacity of the highway (by giving crowded vehicles priority over less crowded vehicles).
Or if there aren't currently enough HOV's, but the introduction of an HOV lane would entice some people to carpool, that would also increase the passenger capacity of the highway.
Probably not a good idea on the CBE specifically, but not a bad idea in general.
Exactly.
In the NYSDOT study of Bronx arterials, converting a general lane to HOV is not being considered for either the Cross Bronx or the Major Deegan.
Yes, it's called bus service.
You're never lived in a classic Boston 'suburb' like Dorchester, Roxbury, Somerville, Arlington, or Roslindale.
AEM7
Well you did a few weeks ago when you re-did the Green Line time tables. Its not often Subtalkers actually improve transit and you deserve some credit.
Mark
Wouldn't you know it? They even have a Web site!
The need is definitely there as the neighborhoods along the proposed line are underserved. The cost looks good, too. Does anyone have a guess as to what its chances are?
Of course, I'm curious as to why "indigo" and not something more obvious like "chartreuse."
: )
Mark
Brighton Ave was a divided road with 3 traffic lanes each way. Trolley occupied on and parked cars another. However, the PCC's out accelerated cars. When I was living in Boston the unwritten rule was that the MTA went through.
However, the Watertown car turned off Brighton and onto Cambridge St. Cambridge was wider, without a divider and had much less traffic. Things got a little congested in Newton. But street traffic was never a real concern. BTW, they used to run 2-car trains on the Watertown line during rush hour, They also turned cars at Oak Square.
AEM7
My Plan:
BU should buy and pay for the operation of trolleys that run from Chestnut Hill Ave to "BU East" and reverse on the middle track just before the portal.
The crush loading on the B line dissappears when BU is on holidays. BU runs busses, but not often enough for students to rely on them, especially since you have a trolley every few minutes.
If the BU trolleys were free to student ID holders, then people going further downtown could be less crowded on the regular B line cars.
Trust me, BU has the money.
Trust me, BU will never do it.
Mark
You want them to buy the trolley and operate it. Do you not know the difference?
Mark
That MBTA might consider.
All of them are up with the angels.
Richmond Hill:
Glendale:
Fresh Pond:
Haberman:
Penny Bridge:
Many were just a stop in the ballast on a grade crossing with a sign. And until about 1995, most didn't even have signs! The LIRR ity appears wanted to kill this service for years.
The plaform on the right is the Jamaica bound "platform". The Bushwick branch track is on the right of that, where passenger trains stopped running in the 1920's. The platform on the left is the LIC bound "platform" in the weeds. believe it or not this is an ACTIVE station at the time this photo was taken around 1992. The station had 6 years of service left. It was unbelievable that this sort of service still ran into the late 90's. It seemed like something out of the 1920's. it was SO much fun to ride the local service from those stations.
Here's a photo of a train stopping at the "Glendale" station in 1992:
And finally, Richmond Hill, although this was a fantrip, (the others were in regular service)
(Sorry for the quality of the scans, but they are slides and my slide scanner sucks)
One possible way to deal with the NIMBYism which subway conversion has to deal with is to build a subway underneath the ROW west of Forest Park. The line from Glendale west (specifically, west of where the Bay Ridge and Montaulk branches meet at Cooper Ave)has far too many grade crossings and is not wide enough to have both subway tracks and freight tracks. A 2-track subway can fit under the ROW, cut-and-cover methods can be used for construction, and the subway will not be a nuisance to neighborhoods it runs through. Once the subway gets to LIC it can run through the Sunnyside yards, connecting with the 63rd St tunnel, using the excess capacity (Broadway until lower 2nd Ave opens). The line can then run via the LIRR Atlantic Branch to Rosedale in the same manner the Archer Ave subway was supposed to.
You're absolutely right. At the time of discontinuance, these were the average total daily ridership levels released by the LIRR:
Richmond Hill: 1
Glendale: 3
Fresh Pond: 5
Haberman: 2
Penny Bridge: 0
Here I thought the Greenport line was bad.
If I had lived near the area at the time, I would've used Penny Bridge just to be perverse. Assuming, that is, I would have been able to find the "station" :)
Believe it or not, someone told me that they ran the service the way it was to be able to keep the "franchise" open, meaning if they ever wanted to increase service, it is easier when there is already "service" on the line. It didn't really cost the LIRR much to run that service because they basically needed to do nothing to maintain the "stations" as all that was there was a sign (and no signs even for many years). The new trains ended because basically it would have been a phenominal expense to make those stations ADA compliant, and there was no reason to do so. I think Fresh Pond had about 5 regular users, Glendale about 2, Richmond Hill about 2, Penny Bridge, I have no idea, and Haberman had about 5 or so--not worth it to make any sort of platform/steps that would lead to the new trains.
I think it sucks when you take away transit service (commuter rail or whatever) from an area that could use it. But I am aware of the problems involved in restoring it.
And, of course, there is the issue that unless your job is within the LIC area (many recent shutdowns, but also hope for the future with new developments), you're transferring to that string of sardine cans called the 7 or to a ferry (if there is ferry service; ferrt service can be unstable).
BTW: My plan uses that line for LIRR service to WTC. But even that would require a new elevated service along that ROW (leaving the frieght line intact).
Elias
If you walk three blocks south on 73rd Street, you reach Myrtle Avenue, which is lined with businesses for most of its length through Glendale- which is supposedly defined as Fresh Pond Road/61st Street through Woodhaven Boulevard. That's about a mile and a half.
Myrtle looks typical of a lot of older outer-borough commercial strips: Mom & Pop stores in pre-war frame or brick taxpayer buildings with apartments above. Here and there is a McDonald's, gas station, large restaurant, auto body shop, etc. On the side streets of Glendale you'll find mostly attached row houses (some with common driveways running between the blocks Beverly Hills-style) with some single families and small walk-up apartment buildings. Most of the housing stock is pre-war as well, not unusual for western Queens.
Back in the days of double fare zones, most Queensites living in them wished a subway line ran through their neighborhood. Despite most of Glendale being situated beyond reasonable walking distance of a subway line, its residents always resisted the Montauk Branch being converted to rapid transit use.
Most LIRR lines running through Queens are in open cuts or on high embankments, with fairly frequent service. But the Montauk line runs on ground level through Glendale. This, combined with several crossings and relatively infrequent service, has made the ROW very accessible and attractive for trespassers- especially teenagers and the homeless. Numerous fatalities of this nature over the years have turned Glendalians against the idea of more frequent, rapid transit- style service along the line.
You can't assume that a railroad station lies right in the heart of the locality it's named for. LIRR stations named for Deer Park, Roslyn, Sea Cliff, Glen Cove, Seaford, Oceanside and Montauk all lie long distances from their respective downtowns. Northport station is a good mile or so from said village. It's actually in the downtown of the hamlet of EAST Northport, which is often misidentified as Northport itself.
Deer Park station used to be in the downtown area, to the extent that the community has a real downtown. It was moved a mile to the east in order to provide more parking.
Amazingly, almost all of the commuities that the Montauk Branch runs along has maintained a VERY rural look around the line. Strange.
Actually, the railroad used to run to the heart of Northport, but it was realigned when it was extended from Northport to Port Jeff. Montauk, also saw the tracks leave the downtown area at some point, and Deer Park as Peter mentioned, as well as many of the Mainline stations that were moved in 1987. But it's true, many times the railroad doesn't run right through "downtown", even at the beginning.
That's due to being near that most civilized of people moving methodologies, the steel wheels on steel rails. Well, that, and the cemeteries that are located along the line. Nothing like a cemetery to keep a neighborhood quiet.
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Introducing transit service here would require substantial ROW improvements, better ROW isolation, ROW beautification, street improvements and other amenities. The concerns stated in your post are legitimate and addressable.
Yup, 73rd Street. When I hung out there, many cars were using the cemetery as a shortcut to get to Glendale from Metropolitan Avenue. It was relatively busy in the morning.
"Penny Bridge" always sounded so cute and rural. But it's in Maspeth, Queens.
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
Using LR on a line that could be used for Commuter Rail is a horrible idea! If they wanted to make the service work, they woulda made the stations into actual stations. They woulda had signs, and they woulda had better service. The reason the commuter service on the line ended was b/c the LIRR didn't do those above things. They treated the line like crap.
Because it is a diesel line. Wouldn’t make sense to tunnel under from Babylon through the Hamptons and out to Montauk anyway, would it, if you need the ventilation for the DE30ACs.
(does double-take)
Oh, you’re talking about the West End of the Montauk Branch? (also a diesel line) Where will you disconnect it from the LIRR (FRA) and connect it to the subway system (FTA)?
Also, what about the New York & Atlantic then? AFAIK, they run freight movements on the LIC end of the Montauk Branch. Do you really wish to constrain their capacity?
It is also possible to use that route for a subway, (again elevated). I would connect it to the Steinway Tubes, and would run the (7) on the we routing stoping at several park and ride facilities to be built out there.
Then I would send the (R) out to Main Street via the 60th Street tunnel, thus ridding ourselves of some nasty slow curves on that line. Of course, this would only work if a new subway were build along Northern Boulevard which would carry the bulk of the present traffic from that area.
Elias
Well said.
Probably because they now carry roads rather than trains. But an elegant elevated concrete structures, graceful and quiet, will be of no objection at all. Or leastwise they should not be. They certainly ought not be dismissed out of hand just because they are elevated.
Elias
Subway co-existing with a freight line ... happens elsewhere in the U.S.,
so why not in NYC ?
PATH can run alongside NJT because it is FRA compliant.
FRA: Federal Railroad Administration
PATH is being grandfathered at present; however, if new cars come along on that system, they may make efforts to put in “separation” between Amtrak/NJT/CSX and itself more, in order to qualify to become an FTA-controlled RR operation and waive the extra expense of being FRA-compliant. (After all, the physical connection between NJT/Amtrak/CSX tracks and PATH tracks are now severed where the old Center Street Branch crossovers used to be on the westbound tracks…there is just the matter of one diamond crossover at the Kearny maintenance center…)
My little league field was along the Montauk Branch, beneath Woodhaven Blvd overpass. I remember when a bunch of NIMBY's were passing around a petition to stop the proposal. I also remember weekly articles about the issue in the Ridgewood Times. That was more than twenty years ago. God I'm old.
I still maintain that if you revived LIRR service, or started subway service there with new stations and lighting and street beautification etc. etc. (let's pretend for a moment that MTA basically creamed the NIMBYs in their tracks), there would be plenty of riders, the whining would stop and even the complainers would deny afterward that they ever had a problem with it. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Beyond that, the people who would have most benefitted from the construction of either Montauk Option chose not to strongly participate in the process. The MTA was essentially painted into a corner.
The usual New York apathy.
Whether you're talking about the SAS, other subway projects, or indeed any public works project, it's a general rule that the opponents tend to be more passionate (and vocal) in their opposition than the supporters are in their support.
The media usually favors and reports on the NIMBY's because they want to be on the 'good guy' side.
Hmmmp. Guess I ain't been on Subtalk as long as I should have! I agree with that comment. And, it would do that wonder of wonders in the crowded city...open up a new corridor. (Although...I have entertained thoughts of seeing the western half becoming a redeveloped industrial section, with "rail-friendly" businesses operating lineside.)
Fresh Pond station is not in a bad neighborhood, but it is below street level in an isolated setting where no one on the street can see you. You wait for the train on the ballast after you walk that ricketty stairway and winding 2 foot wide passageway to get from the street to that stairway. In the winter months when it got dark at 4:30 (the trains only stopped there around 5:06 and 5:45, long after dark), the only light was a faint glow from the streetlights on Metropolitan Ave far in the distance.
And Haberman, in the middle of an industrial area strewn with garbage:
Then you had the fare. In the 90's the fare was like $4.50 to go from let's say Glendale to LIC. All the trains they ran there were during the peak fare period, so you had to pay the peak fare which was at the time $4.25 for intra-zone peak fare travel.
Now if they made real stations out of them, make a more reasonable fare, and ran service maybe once every 2 hours or so to start, you'd be surprised how many people may start to use it. Then they could gradually increase service. There is no need to convert it to the subway system. If they would have just increased the LIRR service it would have been fine, and you don't have to worry about FDA regulations concerning freight because the LIRR can run with freight, so no extra track would be needed. The only expense to start would be the construction of a one or two car platfrom at each station. Richmond Hill already has a platform.
Fresh Pond station is not in a bad neighborhood, but it is below street level in an isolated setting where no one on the street can see you. You wait for the train on the ballast after you walk that ricketty stairway and winding 2 foot wide passageway to get from the street to that stairway. In the winter months when it got dark at 4:30 (the trains only stopped there around 5:06 and 5:45, long after dark), the only light was a faint glow from the streetlights on Metropolitan Ave far in the distance.
And Haberman, in the middle of an industrial area strewn with garbage:
Then you had the fare. In the 90's the fare was like $4.50 to go from let's say Glendale to LIC. All the trains they ran there were during the peak fare period, so you had to pay the peak fare which was at the time $4.25 for intra-zone peak fare travel.
Now if they made real stations out of them, make a more reasonable fare, and ran service maybe once every 2 hours or so to start, you'd be surprised how many people may start to use it. Then they could gradually increase service. There is no need to convert it to the subway system. If they would have just increased the LIRR service it would have been fine, and you don't have to worry about FDA regulations concerning freight because the LIRR can run with freight, so no extra track would be needed. The only expense to start would be the construction of a one or two car platfrom at each station. Richmond Hill already has a platform.
I'm not saying the situations are specifically comparable but what has been done with the HBLRT through Bayonne might be worth a look. The Montauk Branch doesn't have the same linear characteristics of the old CRRNJ lines but the track seperation there is a good example of how a combo urban passenger/freight ROW can be configured.
I did get to take a couple of rides within the branch. L.I.C. to Richmond Hill, Jamaica to Penny Bridge etc. It was a unique experience. And I've walked the line too, from around Woodhaven Blvd up to Van Alst St. Nice, nice industrial era design concepts along that line. And a couple of really spooky "tunnels" as it goes under various streets.
Sorry. I meant, "...up to Van DAM St."
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
To what exactly are you referring to?
It's a good "game" anyway.
Help me Rhonda. Help, help me Rhonda.
Help me Rhonda. Help, help me Rhonda.
(enter acoustic riff)
"According to an article from the New York Times on September 16, 1929: the Second Avenue Subway would have run along 2 tracks from Pine & Water Streets to Chambers Street, 4 tracks to 61st Street, 6 tracks to 125th Street, then 4 tracks to the Harlem river with connection to Bronx lines.
Ruling out budget constraints, is it possible to expand *this* Second Avenue Subway to four or six tracks to allow for express service and/or increased capacity?"
To which they succintly replied:
"The Second Avenue Subway line is being designed to be a two-track system. Based on expected ridership, two tracks will provide sufficient capacity."
This didn't really answer my question. I would have hoped that they would at least consider the possibility of future express tracks, but that doesn't seem the case.
Is this the only line ever seriously proposed that would have had a transfer with itself (assuming it didn't just begin at 2nd Avenue)?
My observations show 8th Ave can handle 24 tph even under current signaling and management procedures. Hopefully CBTC won't reduce that.
That's very unusual. The only delay I've ever seen under normal conditions is that if a train arrives at 6th Ave early, it has to wait till one of the 2 trains at 8th Ave vacates the premises.
Probably there was a delay followed by a rapid arrival of multiple trains.
--Mark
Hmm…I assumed the clamor for a detour to the East Village/Lower East Side was based solely on the demand for better transit access there.
I'm sure that if and when subway construction reaches 14th Street, the old issue of a detour will resurface…no pun intended.
The RPA's Metrolink plan addressed this.
You were right. And it first surfaced in the 1960s, not the 70s.
The Chicago system does that. IIRC the Red line.
That is not that weird . It would save on platform construction. Only one local island platform would be needed instead of two wall local platforms with a tile wall that must be maintained . Hell even tiles wouldn't be necessary as the wall would be next to the express tracks . It would look like the CPW stations, except instead of a wall platform it would be an island in the middle of four tracks .
Cmon man, you know the MTA will spend the money on the tiles anyway, then end up tearing it down if thats considered.
Technically you don't need to tear down the walls. Just cut out a 6 foot by 36 inch section of walls every couple of feet just in case.
It would actually be interesting to see the express on the outside for a change.
Nothing is. The original designers must have been filled with a sense of the future New York City. Why no other cities on Earth saw fit to make their transit lines with the same capacity is the question. Were the design principles not known to all? Did no other city have such grand plans for growth?
Kudos once again to the implementers of the Manhattan street grid. Tailor-made for big time rapid transit.
it would also require mezzanines at every station, making it more expensive.
Not true. Each station having 2 separate platforms requires 2 full-time fare controls with 2 station agents. One mezzanine requires only one full-time fare control. It also lacks the ability to cross over for the other side.
Both require the same number of elevators. 2 separate platforms require 1 elevator each (3 if you still have a mezzanine) and 1 platform still requires 2 (1 platform-mezzanine, 1 mezzanine-street).
Furthermore, if the exits are built into the ends of the platform, no mezzanine is required anyway!
Or if there's room for a mezzanine at street level, as at 72nd Street, then one elevator suffices.
This is a matter of policy. One can have only one of the two platforms staffed, or neither of the platforms can be staffed.
It also lacks the ability to cross over for the other side.
An underpass is smaller than a mezzanine and cheaper to build.
Sean@temple
www.trolleystop.com
There are other differences but I don't remember them at this time.
Subtalk Message #166401
til next time
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
I am not going to go into every little detail as to what has changed because that would ruin it for everyone else who has yet to go.
"Wall of Fame" (that is what I call it). There is a listing of major contributers to the Museum as well as a full listing of the Charter Members of the Museum. I am there as well as Todd Glickman and Chao-wa Chen. I am sure there are a few other Subtalkers who are charter members but my eye caught these right away.
The "Steel, Stone and Backbone" exhibit is in the same place and doesn't look like anything was done besides a general cleaning.
The turnstile exhibit is still in the same place but there are new posters describing each one. Across from the turnstiles is a pictorial exhibit on the various fare media - from the IRT 5 cent ticket through the MetroCard.
The next area has pictorial exhibits on both sides and the "RR Theater" has been renamed The "R-46 Screening Room".
The Bus exhibit has been at least doubled in area and the trolley car models have been put in nice display cases.
The old signs exhibit is mostly still in place.
On the platform level one thing that may not be immediately noticable but definetely a big change is that on track A2 (where the IRT cars and BMT Elevated cars are) they have added a wooden platform extender mounted on hinges (so they can move it out of the way if they have to bring in B division cars). This allows them to open all the doors on the cars.
There is a pictorial exhibit along the platform.
The cars are not in the order the originally were. That was done so that all cars that are operational are put in the front so that they can be moved for fan trips etc.
The current order (from the stub end wall to the front of the station):
Track A2 (northbound):
Diesel car 10
Steeple car 5
IRT LoV trailer 4902
BMT Q car 1612C
BMT El car 1404
BMT El car 1273
BMT El car 1407
R-12 car 5760
R-15 car 6239
R-17 car 6609
R-33WF car 9306
Track A1 (southbound):
R-30 car 8506
R-16 car 6387
R-11/34 car 8013
BMT Standard car 2204
IND R-7A car (R-10 prototype) 1575
IND R-4 car 484
BMT D type cars 6095 A-B-C
IND R-1 car 100 is noticeably absent. That is because it is in Coney Island shops having the floor replaced. Once that is completed and it is moved to the Museum, R-4 car 484 will be moved to CI to have the same work done.
The TM store is slighly smaller. They moved the office wall out a foot or so.
The rest you will have to discover for yourselves.
Enjoy!!!
tears falling and said in a sad tone:
The R30 and the R16 appear to be near the bumper block because they are among the non operational cars : (
Seriously allan, thanks for your great report.
Sad but true.
Although they can not contain passengers, it would be nice to have the wooden cars travel on some of the IRT/BMT routes for the 100th anniversary. They also did do a demo of the tower, switches the signals to green/green and throwing the S/B (IRT) crossover a few times.
I don't know how often the wall will be updated (it is a printed poster not engraved plates or anything of that nature) but you can get on the list of contributors is you join at or upgrade your existing membership to at least the Patron level ($250). It is possible that they will do it for the Contributing level ($150). I know those usually get mentioned in the "Court St Shuttle" newletter once a year.
If you can go for Corporate Sponsor ship levels $1,000 and up you will definetly get mentioned somewhere.
-NYTM Contributing Charter Member #57
IND R-1 car 100 is noticeably absent. That is because it is in Coney Island shops having the floor replaced.
I'm pretty sure it is at 207 St.
Except it isn't an R-46.
Also, there's a new reading room in the trolley & bus exhibit, with spiral-bound volumes of historic bus photos, construction photos of the Jamaica El (mislabeled "a record of trolley service in Jamaica in 1915"), and a couple of ERA bulletins on Brooklyn trolleys. IMO, these should be equipped with electronic anti-theft devices...
That means the ticket will be valid at a specified time.
They will ge given out at the Museum and will only be valid for a specific period of time.
You will have to go there to find out, but what is the rush?? What you don't see this coming weekend you can always go back another time.
They will be valid at a specific period of time - example 11 AM to 12 N. (This is the impression I got from the way it was described - the actual usage restrictions may be different - you will find out when you go).
Then you can call me a Cobble Hiller.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't have AIM, Download it free @ www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Just a suggestion.
I took the (9) train to 242 Street, then walked across the park to get the (4) train. One T/O gave me a hard time about pictures, tried to explain, he got nasty. Told him I didn't want to ride on his train anyway. Got plenty of nice pictures on other trains.
It was raining, and so many of the pictures are very artistic. Honestly, officer, I wasn't taking pictures of subway trains, I was taking pictures of RAIN DROPS, here, take a look!
I Changed for the < Q > train at 14th Street, got more wet pictures flying across the Brighton Lion. Took a bus to Coney Island, and then ate a hot dog. The (W) brought me back to Times Square where there were nothing but redbirds in the station. I got a very artistic shot of the straphanger straps. It was an express train with a friendly T/O and we shot the breeze about how BNSF does things differently. (No Tower Operators, I told him... you climb down off the engine and throw your own switches by hand.)
I came back to Roosevelt, and took the (F) to 179, and then back to Parson's and walked to the (J) line. Some nice pictures on there too. Changed at Bway Jctn for the (A) and went across the bay to Far Rock. Then I took that train back to the city and to W4 in search of a resturant. Then I found a (2) train to take me back to PABT and the Martz bus to Pennsylvaina.
Most of the T/Os and C/Rs were friendly. I camped out by the zebra to watch the C/Rs pointing at the stripes. Some looked rather perfunctory, almost like pointing before looking at the beast. Some saw me watching and made a very nice point (at the sign).
Last Saturday, Steamtown ran an excursion from Scranton to the Deleware Water Gap, right past my parent's house in Pennsylvaina. The city police pretended to be crossing gates, but they parked their car in the picture instead of elsewhere. The unwashed geese gawking from their cars was precious. The train stoped in East Stroudsburg, and so I got many pictures of that too.
I'll post all of my pictures when I get back to North Dakota next week.
Elias
Why didn't you tell us you were going to be in the area?
And how could you miss all the new stuff (and lingering old stuff) on the L? You were already there, at Broadway Junction.
I did not know what day I was going to go into the city so I did not try to make an outing of it. When I finally got access to a computer while in Mr. Penn's Forest, I had no time to accumulate responses. So I just did my best, but it would have been better with a few friends.
Elias
?? I have a photo on my desktop that somebody posted from last winter with a snowy (L) 143 consist coming south from the tunnel into the Junction. ??
Actually, my parents live in East Stroudsburg. The Steamtown train came all the way down here last weekend, paused here for about a half an hour, (they thought to have the firedepartment at water, but it was down only one foot, and so did not bother.
The train continued on down to the Deleware Water Gap station (Just short of the Lackawana Cutoff Bridge I suppose. I have walked on that ROW and it is over grown, with the tracks torn up. If they want to put that bridge back in service, they will have to build from scratch, but at least the ROW and bridge are intact.
Elias
Here's mine
23rd Street
Don't even know why its one of my favorites, probably because its an imperfect shot, crooked and with the column in the way. I hate perfect shots. :)
Then you'd love my photo collection!
I like the way the "W" of the train on the next track shines from between the support columns in the background.
Mark
I could never get sick of a slant.
Elias
I've been forgetting my camera, but I'm getting tired of the sunshiney pictures myself. Of course it was supposed to rain today, and now its sunny. Humbug.
The trip specific photos can be found at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/07-31-03_NJT_PVL_TRIP/
And tower photos can be found at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
Remember, the newest tower photos are at the top of the list.
Here are some teaser pics.
HX tower on the NJT Bergen County Line. This was a former Erie tower controling the movable bridge and interlocking there. Closed in 1994.
The headhouse of the 190th St station on the A train. This is the station used to get to The Cloisters.
Here is a wonderful bit of nature encountered at Spring Valley.
What you see there is technically Riverside Drive West, with Riverside Drive proper swinging sharply inland for a few blocks. Why? I don't really know, but my strong suspicion is that the piece of Manhattan west of Riverside Drive proper is a latecomer.
Example: 158-14 Riverside Drive.
Riverside Drive north of 158th Street was originally part of the Boulevard Lafayette which began as an extension of the Boulevard (Broadway since 1899) at 155th Street. The BL also followed Edwin M. Morgan Place between 157th and 158th. When Riverside was brought up to this point, it was connected to the BL and replaced it north of 158th. Riverside Drive West was, like you said, a latecomer.
You said in a 2000 nyc.transit post that you thought that RDW came about along with the HHP. (Yes, I Googled.) That's unlikely; the apartment buildings look older than that.
As for my original post, I thought wrong. I don't know when RDW was built, but it was before the HHP.
Did BL run all the way to Dyckman and Broadway (or whatever it was called up there -- Kingsbridge Road?), as RD does now? Or did it end at Plaza Lafayette, aka 181st Street?
Jimmy
In any matter, more attention and photos showed up for June's events.
Koi
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
I haven't been to CI in about a year and it didn't look to good at the time.
til next time
That's an intersting point. It wouldn't be so hard to keep one train back, and run it on the Flushing Line during Day 1. Not so historic in the sense of day 1, but historic nonetheless.
I didn't think there were any R-30s in runnable condition except those on the gel train ....
--Mark
I am currently planning a swap meet for Metrocard collectors and would like to know who here would be interested? It will be on a weekend and will probably be in Brooklyn or Manhattan. SO...By a show of hands, Who is interested?
-Mark
How about expanding the idea a bit to include other items of Subway memorabilia.
Remember not every is a member of the ERA (I'm not) and you might get rid of some excess items people who don't go to ERA meetings and auctions may want.
Good for you, brah!!
Tho if I read correctly, it's a SWAP meet... which I think means there's some SWAPPING involved...
Your meterocards might go chow.
The brochure that really caught my eye was from Seashore. The trifold folds open to show some great pictures of their operating cars. It was really quite an eyecatcher.
Has anyone else seen this attractive brochure?
Sorry to have missed you. When were you there? Guess who is
responsible for the placement of the "Seashore", "Shore Line"
and "Rockhill" brochures at said museums. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
I'm glad that you are distributing the literature. We'll get together sometime.
October is now a maybe yes, maybe no ... Nothing to do with the
nice folk at RTY, it School Tax Time for the Ulster County get-a-way.
>>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Also the motorman changing catcher on car #31 and operating same
is a one time SubTalker, who posted under the handle 2nd Ave.
SubTalkers + Trolleys = YEAH!!!
Also 2003, was the first year that Rockhill Trolley Museum issued
a full color brochure.
At the rate of replenishing same at BERA, I hope they're not being
hoarded by "paper collectors". >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Hope to see you before Muse time next season.
8-) ~ Sparky
I have guests coming up to join the Mrs. & I on our annual fall
visit, next Monday. Stef & friend are via AMTRAK.
I'll be at Seashore from the 14th till 23rd of September. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Just one more price to pay for wanting to run the railroad!
Jeremy,
That would be an incarnation of what was done in the eighties.
Not a new grand plan. I've been down that stretch of track
to Log Cabin Road, basically then it was with Nagasaki #134
and Denver & Platte #1 on Fridays, when we operated in the
evening and needed a car with lights on Display. A bit of Seashore
Trivia. >>GG<<
8-\ ~ Sparky
Wait, what? Do you mean MTA 3340, the "Texas Ranger" PCC? That's been there for at least three years. Are there any plans to pull it out and replace it with some other car? If so, what... and why? You'd have to empty out that track alongside the old carbarn with 0521 and the 01400-series Red Line cars, right? Or is the display track 3340 is on disconnected? Just curious.
Frank Hicks
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-Todd G or Stevie help!
Frank Hicks
Your Welcome. It is always a venture to see what's located where
on my Annual visits. About the only cars that I think are stuffed
and mounted are the SOACs. Most of the others in the collection
can be moved, if the need arises. It's gonna be interesting
starting on Sunday, to see what's where this year.
8-) ~ Sparky
It would have been tarped for the off season. I was there in April
also and do not remember if it was tarped or not.
8-) ~ Sparky
Steve L.
SOUTH PASADENA -- State commissioners on Thursday agreed to give peace a chance at seven intersections along the Gold Line, where bells now will stop ringing once the crossing gates have completely lowered.
The Public Utilities Commission, which regulates railroads in California, approved the request made by the MTA on behalf of the cities of South Pasadena and Los Angeles, said PUC spokeswoman Sherry Inouye.
The five-member PUC, unanimously and without discussion, granted the exemption to its rule that requires an "audible warning device' at all street/rail crossings. The panel meets in San Francisco.
The following South Pasadena intersections will be affected:
Fremont Avenue/Grevelia Street;
Hope Street;
Orange Grove Avenue;
Indiana Avenue;
Arroyo Verde Road.
Gold Line trains run through residential neighborhoods in those sections of the route. People who live near the tracks have been begging for relief from the noise since the MTA began testing its trains and equipment early this year.
The light rail opened for business in late July, operating 4 a.m. to 2 a.m. seven days a week. Neighbors complained that the nearly round-the-clock bell-ringing kept them from sleeping.
Thursday's PUC order also applies to two Gold Line crossings in the Highland Park section of L.A., Avenue 60 and Avenue 59. The 13.7-mile light rail system runs between Los Angeles and Pasadena.
South Pasadena has three other street-level rail crossings where the bells will continue to ring their full duration usually 45 to 90 seconds because they are in commercial neighborhoods.
Members of the PUC's Consumer Protection and Safety Division, along with MTA representatives, "held diagnostic meetings at every single (street- level) crossing on the Gold Line' to determine where the bell-ringing could be scaled back, according to a PUC report.
"Factors considered included the proximity of residences and the the amount of pedestrian traffic at each crossing,' the report said.
The MTA will make the change as soon as possible at the seven intersections, said spokesman Ed Scannell.
"A software modification will be necessary to shorten the duration of the bells,' Scannell said.
Rail officials will consult Kansas City-based G.E. Transportation Systems to find out how soon the job can be completed and how much it will cost. If the figure is more than $200,000, the expenditure will require approval by the MTA board of directors, Mr. Scannell said.
"Our intent is to make those changes as soon as we can,' he said.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority runs 196 daily Gold Line trains. During rush hours, a northbound or southbound train passes every five minutes.
Along the Gold Line route, four gates block each intersection, and flashing red lights are attached to the crossing arms. Some South Pasadenans say the sound of the bells travels farther than necessary because they are mounted atop 12-foot poles that point outward, instead of down toward drivers and pedestrians.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is a potential safety issue for the visually impaired, especially if the railroad also observes a "no horn" policy (assuming it gets an exemptio for that too.
-Robert King
Riding this car is completely different from the normal trolley excursion. I understand, in their heyday, that these cars could do 70 MPH. RTM, doesn't operate it that fast naturally, but it really does move out!
Something else that really caught my eye was the rapid transit type couplers on the front and rear of the car.
Yes, they did... I had the pleasure of riding them in their native environment on several occasions over the years and they were quite fast.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not to be forgotten either are the 160-series Strafford cars, which in their original configuration predated their sexier cousins, the Bullets. These were rebuilt after the Bullets arrived and regeared with a top speed of 70 mph. They could really gallop along!
I loved riding in the Strafford cars. The sounds, rumbles, and vibrations reminded me of the Delaware River Bridge Commission trains that I rode during my (first) childhood.
Glad you clarified that point for us, Bob :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll bet that they could easily exceed 70 MPH.
*We have not independently confirmed this, however historical records seem to indicate that this is the case.
Frank Hicks
I was thinking about a way to be able to take photographs without drawing the attention of the police or MTA authorities.
I don't know too much about the resolution with those digital cameras inside of the new cell phones.
But if the resolution is halfway decent, you can use the camera function and no one could tell that you are taking pictures. It will look like you are making a call on your phone or playing with your phone, etc.
Anyway, it was just an idea or suggestion. Any comments?
It would definetly look strange and dare I say (dare!, dare!)suspicous.
Besides taking those picture would be a drain on the cell phone battery and if you needed to use the phone you wouldn't be able to.
Peace,
ANDEE
What if I was bored and I wanted to play a video game?
I've yet to see one good photo come from these "cameras".
Your idea is not bad, it is creative, but the techology is not at the point yet where it would be worthwhile to do.
Read his post: I don't know how to submit.
Can't help ya there, brah.
Peace,
ANDEE
The author of the article is clearly not a railfan, however. Why? The author states:
Why not re-examine the city's worst subway wreck, the 1918 Malbone Street crash in Brooklyn, which killed, by most accounts, 97 people?
The author does not realize that Brian Cudahy covered the subject in detail in his book "The Malbone Street Wreck".
--Mark
And yet ... the actual number of deaths at Malbone Street vary from source to source. It was Brian Cudahy who definitively set the number at 97. The article author's reference to this number may indicate that he or she is aware of the Cudahy book.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ninety-seven has been the most disseminated number, though some have had it as over 100.
Some of the discrepancy may be due to deaths that did not occur in the wreck or immediately after, but some time after.
Mr. Haberman has been around a long time, but I have noticed him asking rhetorical questions about subway fare politics and the relationship between New York City and New York State which he could have had answered by a few mouse clicks, or dare I say, a visit to the New York Times archive? :)
"Two months ago. Standard procedure every 6 months." (or something like that)
"Yeah...think it's time for another one....."
(Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith in MIB)
Go for it!
You must have high marks in math at school.
If you make the circuit of the 5 totally unconnected stations at Wall and Rector Streets, you should be able to get 5 uses every 18 minutes.
"I never knew how every bum knew to come to Grand Central. I figured that like me they just dug the place. Then I was dating a girl whose father was a sergent for the Middletown police department in Connecticut. They had an insane asylum or mental hospital or whatever the politically correct term there is for those places. Whenever someone got out of the place, they were driven to the MetroNorth station and given a one way ticket to Grand Central. I figure a lot of hospitals did that."
That's an anectdote. What I can tell you from census data is that both in 1980 and in 1990, only one-third of those who reported receiving public assistance income in New York City had been born in New York State. And in 1980, fully half of those who had moved into the city since 1975 were on public assistance.
You don't hear about this. Democrats make their living at social services agencies, so the more the merrier, and they don't want anything to make people object to spending it. HRA has and still has a policy of not releasing data on where the city's recipients come from, though Bloomberg did leak how many of the homeless had just gotten off the bus, and a city council member recently let slip that many of the elderly receiving Medicaid are former residents who moved to Florida (no income tax) in their 60s and 70s and moved back when they were in need to get services.
But Republicans don't want to talk about it either. How much of their rhetoric about "big government" in NYC vs. "efficient" government in the red states and suburbs is about dumping the people with problems on someone else? So it is firmly under the rug. That's where we live Mr. Greenberger, under the rug.
Also from the article:
"If you had to go, you had to use the bathroom on the Lower Level. You would walk in and have to wait for a urinal because all the stalls were taken by men jerking off. I mean it was unbelievable. Guys would just be hammering away and no one cared. That restroom became known as the 'Hammers of Hell.'"
I made the mistake of trying to use the bathroom there in the early 1980s. I'll believe anything that was said about the place, as long as it's bad.
I'm not a compassionate sort, but I have to admit that anyone whose romantic life is reduced to milking the weasel in a train station toilet stall deserves our pity.
--Mark
The insider phrase I heard from it is "Greyhound Therapy" after the bus company. I often refer to the 1996 welfare reform act as "busfare." The buses didn't start rolling as long as there were jobs for the poor to move into. They may start rolling now.
As for me, my railfanning goal is to ride every heavy rail subway-elevate in the United States. I only have one left to go, the Cleveland red line. So riding this line is my railfanning priority right now.
Other goals include riding as many subways outside the U.S. as I can, but I don't get out of the country very much, so that will have to wait. I also have a goal of riding all the light rail systems in the U.S. I have a lot left to go, but my priorities are the ones closest to home, my home being Philadelphia. Pittsburgh and Buffalo are the closest ones I haven't ridden, so they are priorities. I also put Denver RTD on the priority list because I used to go to Colorado a lot, and it bugs me that I never managed to swing a ride.
So what about everyone else? What are your long-term railfanning goals, and what rides take priority in achieving them?
Mark
Also, mainline RR routes particularly if possible behind steam.
The first time I read that I thought you'd written "to see if any ancient passengers lurk beneath." There's a scary thought!
: )
Mark
If he has them on cassette or something, then he would have to go find a way to convert the stuff on cassette into a .wav or .mp3, or some other sound file (and I don't know how to do that), and then find a site to host.
Stand clear of a closing doors pleeze!
Ding Dong!..Dock!...EEEEEEEEERRRRRRRREEEEEE
This is an Eastchester bound. Fuyve. Local. Train. The next. stop is........... Jackson avenue.
Why are the new tracks so rusty?
If those are second system pics, they are the first I've ever seen.
More:
http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Tunnels/Subways/2ndSys/Various.php
While I could answer the question, I will not do so publically. Kinda reminds me of that movie where old jack yells "You can't handle the truth!" :o) hehehe!
Robert
If not, then at least they correctly announce the W, even if they should omit the N.
Robert
I haven't heard a C/R bing out an announcement for a long time. Maybe they do it more often on the 6 than on the 2.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just noticed this...I remember a different voice on the (5) train before the current announcements which seem to Scold you for riding the train...
Before it was a smooth voice...like...
This is an Eastchester Bound 5 Train...(Recording from either (2) or (6) Train, since besides the Dyre Line, 138 St-GC, and Fulton to Bowling Green, the (5) runs on those lines)...(example)...West..."Fahms Squa-yer".
Now it is a harsh voice with it's own station announcements...
THIS...is an Eastchester Bound FIVE (Local/Express) Train...The NEXT...stop...is...(example) West Farms Square, East...Tremont Avenue. (NOTE: (2) doesn't say "East Tremont Avenue" at all...which makes the one of like TWO incentives of the new announcements.)
Why didn't they just take the same person who recorded the first announcements and do a complete set...that doesn't scold you for riding the "FIVE EXPRESS TRAIN!!!!!"
I also noticed the voice sounds the same on the (4) and somewhat on the (6) as well
I have been temporarily displaced into the North Elizabeth/Elizabeth station areas and was on course to catch the 8:23 from Elizabeth when, not knowing the full details of the schedule until I reviewed it more thoroughly on the car ride there, I discovered it would end there, necesitating a transfer to the next train in. As I further reviewed the schedule, I noticed there was no companion train leaving NWK (having not come from NYP or Hoboken), nor is there any other train with a 5xxx number on the NEC/NJCL schedule. Can anyone shed light on this? Is it just a short-turn with no actual turn?
How long has F2 track in the vicinity of the Howard Beach station been closed off. It appears that plant life is already growing on the trackbed there.
(On an unrelated topic, I spied a palm tree growing on a track in Redlands, CA, IN BETWEEN THE RUNNING RAILS. It's been said that the track (which runs somewhat parallel to Citrus Avenue, curving northward west of Judson Street), hasn't seen a train in about 10 years. Buses on Omnitrans Routes 8, 19, and 30 still do their grade crossing safety checks despite this fact (19 and 30 on Orange St, 8 on Judson).)
We had a similar situation down here in orange County, California on East Fourth Street in Santa Ana. An old SP spur went through a couple junkyards, but service was discontinued in the 1970's...but the rails remained there until the mid-1990's when the street was rebuild following some urban renewal in the area. The city would come out and repaint the limit lines on a regular basis too!!
Barring any run-ins with the NYPD, I will have a stunning pic from East 180th street.
...or Peggy "respect my authority" Whackington. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
For now, the best places to go while the sun is out are:
Whitlock Ave/IRT (North side by bridge)
Queensboro Plaza
On Hunterspoint Ave, off 21st st. as you take the #7 and LIRR approaches.
Smith-9th Streets
18th Avenue (good curve at either end)
Enjoy!
Peace,
ANDEE
til next time
For the entire album, click here.
Enjoy!
Is it just me, or is this one of the few R36WFs that were equipped with experimental LCD "LOCAL" and "EXP" signs? Or maybe it's just an excess of dirt and grime on the EXP and LOCAL signs...
What time were these pictures taken?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It could only be #9574, which is one of those cars. If you look carefully, the car behind it seems to be missing a number plate on the far end. That'd be #9575.
til next time
How do you get the close closeups like that?
Your camera's Rez, mine is only 1600x1200?
Thanks. Well, I use my 4x Canon Zoom Lens, and then take the photo at the last possible second.
Your camera's Rez, mine is only 1600x1200?
Mine is 2272x1704
There's a possibilty there was a narrow cab up front...which is incredibly rare.
WHOA! You're right. That's weird.
I'll never tell :)
Thanks for the kind words.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album43/IMG_4869
What was the "subway series 2000"?
With this painting on the front it should go to the museum yard.
You're kidding right?
Just in case you're not, it was the baseball world series between the Yankees and Mets in the year 2000, the Yankees won.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wondering what subway and baseball have common?
By the way i don't watch much sport on TV. It's most time boring.
The Dodgers and Giants moved out in 1958 and the New York Mets were established by expansion in 1962. The 14th Subway Series and first involving the Mets (all 14 involved the Yankees) was in 2000.
There also is a more minor Subway Series that has occured each year since interleague play began in 1997. It consists of three regular season games played between the two teams at either one of the two stadia. Some years there are two such series in different parts of the season with one held in each stadium.
Here are some choice cuts, I only uploaded about 5 or 6 pics...
The rest are here.
When I want to get some pics of the R-142's I usually go there, West Farms Square is nice too. I got my camera right after the Redbirds were gone on the 2 and 5. I have a few Redbird on the 4 pics.
I have 86 pictures taken at the Corona Yard and Stengel depot, at the Willets Point - Shea Stadium platform itself, and inside/outside pics of QSC RTS #303.
Based on the last picture, I'm thinking somewhere in NJ. More than that I have no clue.
Constructed in the late 1920's, it was intended for fast access of interurbans to downtown.
The Depression killed the plan, and the tunnels have never seen rails or a train, and despite possible light rail plans never will.
Its those new zoom lenses ;-)
Besides, the pix look just like the east portal of the Weehawken tunnel, which I went and looked at only a few months ago.
It does not say where they are, seems to be a fictious story, and so some of the photos may have been altered.
Elias
What I want to know is, why don't New York City Subway maps have something like this? It would show things like the Second Avenue Subway and the 7 line to Javits, and whatever else is on the table for the future. I don't know how much of an effect it would have, but maybe something would click in people's heads if they see the same dotted line onthe map for 20 years...
Just a thought.
Reminds me of how pissed I was when Hagstrom started blanking out adjacent counties on their county maps. In some parts of New Jersey, with the jagged county lines, that makes for a hell of a lot of blank space on the map! Guess some money boy at the firm said something like:
"Hey, here's one way to sell more maps!"
But it sucks all the same.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
There is a tendency nowadays not to show lines being constructed because of the amount of time it willtake to completion. And besides people looking at a subway map are more interested in what is running, niot what is being built.
PHOTOGRAPHY is permitted in all public areas of the system for non-commercial, private purposes. Flash, Tripods, and other ancilliary exquipment is NOT permitted.
Elias
IAWTP!!!!!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Probably not, which is exactly why there is no longer a point to using profanity. The word f__k was basically used up in the 1960s and early 1970s. But the late 1970s it and other profanity was a joke.
Today it and other profanity is just an embarassement.
Maybe it's time to develop some new swear words. After all, the old ones have been around for ages, and despite many years of loyal service no longer are what we need.
Sort of like the Redbirds.
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
Word to the Wise: Invest in a dictionary Mr. Westcode44!
Uh, just for the record I don't see any overhead wire connected to that Trolly...
But yes, there IS such a thing as a "Tea Trolly" from which I provided the picture ... can't wait to see the wheel shop get it on the rails ... and Unca Westie's gonna have to schedule that to get out of that one. Heh. Nothing we couldn't cure with an extension cord of course ...
Man, I can't BELIEVE you and Unca Lou (and probably others who haven't confessed to Father Selkirk as yet) are doing that "extra extra board meat thing" ... I sure do hope you know what you're getting yourself into - I kinda LIKED you when you were all foamy and sheet ... I give it four months before you're ready to whack ANYBODY who shows up at Sprague and says, "daddy! daddy! I wanna ride choochoo!" with that yellow number 4 wood. :)
You'll see, boobe ... what you DON'T know as yet is that you've enrolled into the ultimate 12 step plan for foamers ... TA ... once you put on that tin, you'll KILL anyone who wants to drag you to see a train somewhere. You shoulda seen the dose of foamerism *I* had before almost a year with the TeeYay ... "train? Ho hum, yeah, we got 70 pounds? Let's go ... now what?" Heh.
1689 had me spoiled - a couple of door massages, a couple of turns on the brake stand and she was hot and ready for it. Me, I was almost bored after two trips and LONGING to go look at the buses with Thurston and ride with you in that wooden stretch limo of yours. CREW LUNCH?!?! CREW DINNER?!?!?! NOW we cooking with gas. :)
Trains? Feh ... you'll see.
It's a single-track shuttle, so if something goes wrong with the one train that's covering it, service on the entire shuttle has to shut down. Sorry, that's life.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=167155&newsdate=9/5/2003&BCCode=BNNATION
No subscription required, and you can ignore the ads on the right side of the screen ...
(South Motor)4864 - 4865 - 4901 - 4900 - 4625 - 4624 - 4843 - 4842(North Motor)
Robert
I hope by Presidents day the L Line is all R143's.
til next time
(South Motor)9713 - 9712 - 9653 - 9652 - 9615 - 9614 - 9696 - 9697 - 9322 - 9649 - 9648(North Motor)
Spotted this at 4:30PM at the Times Square-bound platform at 45 Rd - Court House Square.
I spotted two more Redbirds running Times Square-bound but could not get the numbers. I spotted a fourth Redbird set stopping at Junction Blvd (Main St bound) and a fifth set was on Track M at Main St.
Notes: 9713 and 9712 still have their Subway Series 2000 livery. Not sure if these particular R36WFs will be preserved.
If I remember correctly, 9696 has the "tennis ball 7s" on the sides. 9697 probably has them as well.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Elias
til next time
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Your website is really convincing me to buy a digital camera.
B&H is generally considered reputable, although I know of one poster here who disagrees. Adorama's also worth a visit, but it's a bit smaller, so it's probably a bit less likely to carry the camera you want.
Talk about lucky. Man, I love Sunnyside Yard. It's really a great place. I once got to witness a race between an R36 and an M7...you'll never guess which one won...
You Blind?!
You forgot the great AEM7AC next to those two!
C'mon, show some props, if it weren't for the AEM7 we wouldn't even have the NEC anymore. The Powers that be would have killed it after the disappointing E60CP. P32s and some 80s DM perhaps based on the F40C or something would pull the trains under the Hudson (just like the old DD1s of the Pennsy, going backward instead of forward), but the catenary would be long gone. :(
Are the speedometers on the R127/134 made by EDO? I noticed that they looked different (the digital display was in red and showed double digits for speeds b/w 0-9, as opposed to the EDO display which is amber and shows single digits until train exceeds 10 MPH).
Which yard stores EP006 and EP007? Corona or some other yard?
til next time
It's no joke folks...
What's up with that?
Does that happen a lot on the R142 and R142A, or is it just the angle of the picture? I noticed in many of his shots that there were images of R142s that looked like they had a partial reading on the front LED sign.
Of course I'm not sure if those subway cars even feed AC power to their signs, if not then basically everything I've said is completely BS. If they do use AC for the signs, then hopefully I've made something somewhat clear.
One more thing, I'm fairly certain that the LEDs in the Destination signs scan, either vertically or horizontally, so that the entire display isn't flickering at 60hz. This way there would always be a darkened portion of the display in a photo where there are LED that are darkened.
I've taken two photos that illustrate this:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~wld25/P10100372.JPG
Here you can see a SEPTA 2003 D40LF, the rear display should read '37', but the middle of it is quite clearly darkened. I really have never noticed this on the front of the busses, although a couple of photos show about 5 lines across.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~wld25/P8110023.JPG
And here in a night shot of another SEPTA D40LF, this on the 42 to 61st and Pine, you can see the flashing of the front destination and block number signs. Due to the longer exposure time, many individual flashes of the signs were captured.
Oh yeah, and I have no idea if any of this has any relavance to the original subject, if the train was signed as an actual "!", or if it was a "1" and the LED is darkened as I described.
Nicely written. Indeed, do you notice the difference between watching a helicopter fly in person and watching one fly on a reel of film or videotape? The blades are "updated" at the speed of the film and so you get tht cool "backward" spin appearance.
-Robert King
Peace,
ANDEE
Could anyone give me some general statistical facts about the subways?
For example -
How many trains are there in the entire system? How old is the oldest train still on the tracks?
How many new trains were put into service in the last year?
How many are expected to be put on the tracks in the next year?
How many crimes are reported per year in the subways?
And any other quirky (but accessible/intelligible to the general non-subway-informed public) facts you guys think would be good to include would be great.
Thank you SO MUCH. You guys are going to love this film.
Gena
thanks,
tim
funny announcement story.
i'm on a manhattan bound r train. at pacific the conductor announces we will be going express, skipping de kalb and going over the BROOKLYN BRIDGE. haha. i don't think most other people even realized this. the conductor mentioned it a few times. all i could picture was a train barreling down the lanes on the brooklyn bridge.
tim
Ah the heck with that picky stuff. He gets the doors closed pronto. As far as I'm concerned, he could say that we're being rerouted via the Willis Av Bridge (I wonder if the gas mask is water tight).
Because of that he gets to carry over his vacation. I'm looking to do that after the T/O test, I currently get 27 days a year vacation (just to rub that in).
'Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, PLEASE!'
Peace,
ANDEE
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
tim
Better question--
What do the TA people think a "transit observer" is??
Some photos from the blackout
Rockaway Blvd, I was playing around with angles.
The MOD cars at 207 Street Yard.
Today's photos
And finally, a video of an R32 pulling into Euclid:
I put it directly form my camera to the web. For some reason After Effects can't recognize the codec used.
This is a bronx bound. 5 express train. the next. stop is. Baychester Avenue.
would you like to know the car numbers?
The Riversharks (independent Atlantic League) play at Campbell’s [Soup] Field, which is adjacent to the Ben Franklin bridge, so entertainment throughout the game is provided by PATCO trains coming into Camden from Philadelphia.
Attendance at the game was over 7900, many of whom were 30 to 90 minutes late because of getting caught in traffic jams caused by the Dave Matthews Band concert four blocks away at the Tweeter Center (southern terminus of the still under construction Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transportation System).
There were fireworks after the game, which probably contributed to the record attendance. Before the fireworks, though, most of the fans stayed to watch a scene from a made-for-TV (AMC) movie get filmed. The movie will be about fantasies being fulfilled, and this scene is a re-creation of the climax of “The Natural”, hence the presence of a crowd in the ball park.
BTW, why didn't you ride the SJLR through Pavonia Yard to take a pic of the loco there? After all, it opened in Summer of 2002.
Anyway, with 594's crew hospitalized, 596 coupled up to 594 and both trains were run in together as 596.
Yup, another night's entertainment brought to us by a fine graduate of Crazy-Go-Nuts University.
AEM7
No self-defense technique works all the time. It all depends on factors such as the element of surprise, strength/size differences, extent of knowledge, and so on. That being said, BJJ is probably the most "street effective" of all the myriad martial arts. Many techniques involve putting the opponent into a joint lock or choke hold, at which point he must submit or risk serious injury. Law enforcement training is unlikely to deal with it, however, because most BJJ techniques entail going to the ground, something cops almost always try to avoid.
Robert
Robert
I would think when other rolling stock that has rollsigns are retired, the MTA will repeat this. Imagine having an R40 Slant front rollsign in your house. :P
Robert
Robert
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=551096
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=549429
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=542897
You may be only 11 years old but you are making a pest out of yourself.
We all being rather patient with you but you are wearing out your welcome.
I am sure you will get a roll sign. Maybe not right away but eventually you will get one.
Be patient, you have plenty of time.
Anyway, on to the subway things. The first pilot for NBC featured a scene where Mr Frye's 3rd grade teacher appeared on the subway train with him and proceeds to deride him infront of all the other riders. In this version the pilot was shot 'on location' with a single camera, and the subway car appeared quite authentic, longitudinal seating, sliding doors, a Redbird-like feel to the car, the lights would even go out for a few seconds at times. Yet the sign behind the main character reads '1-Express' it looks authentic, as if someone in props went and bought an early Redbird rollsign, yet the car is completely missigned.
In the second pilot, Fox shot it in the usual 3 camera sitcom method, no doubt in LA, on sets. Their 'subway car' for the same scene, still apparantly based in New York, was completely wrong. Even ignoring the character's day dream turning the car into a class room with transverse seating with desks for the 'students', it was still way off. The doors were the biggest thing, they were blinker doors! Suddenly CTA 2200 series cars are running up and down the Broadway IRT (perhaps R39s :) )?! There was nothing so close as the rollsign from the NBC pilot that identified the system as New York. Finally, The car was way too wide to be a subway car, or even a railroad car, for that matter.
Oh well, just thought it was interesting the way two production crews approached the making of a subway scene. We often complain about how the subway is portrayed in TV and movies, it's clear that the one crew got the New York City Subway, while the other would be lucky to make it out of mid-town. Perhaps we should be rooting for the single camera on-scene production as opposed to the typical production procedure, since it would appear to produce a more authentic product.
And this show will be showing at least a half-dozen more times this weekend, Trio is apparantly quite proud of it. If you have any kind of satellite TV or premium cable system, you should get Trio, it's just a matter finding it, and I can't help you there.
BTW: the subway stuff appears just about 1/2 hour into the program, if you want to skip all the other junk about hollywood and stuff.
I got a copy and viewed about half of it (so far). The part I watched was mostly black-and-white, but there are a lot of scenes that would be recognizable to many Brooklynites. Riding a trolley across Brooklyn Bridge, with a swing of the camera to record an el train. Trolleys going through Kensington Junction. A complete run out the front of a trolley from Bridge Plaza over the Williamsburg Bridge, stopping just short of the Essex Street trolley terminal (too dark, I guess).
Really captures the flavor of trolley riding in a way even good stills don't.
I almost wish Silleck had left out some of the scrapping scenes. The trolleys piled up at "the Sand Pit" at Canarsie--I wonder what's on the location now? The scenes of burning and wrecked trolleys at Coney Island yard were painful--and I'm not usually that sentimental. Scenes of dozens of every series of Brooklyn car on fire and in ruins. A great trolley empire destroyed in five years! Jeff H. would have to wince watching it.
Brian Merlis
P.O. Box 14
Lynbrook, NY 11563
(516) 292-8677
It's probably not as good technically as the color trolley video of the last years of operation, but the variety is great. I've only seen two captions in what I viewed so far, and it could use a lot more, but I was able to identify most of the locations, though this was all filmed before most of by memory of the system.
I like seeing the Brooklyn PCCs in their BMT colors! Classy!
Brian Merlis
P.O. Box 14
Lynbrook, NY 11563
(516) 292-8677
http://palter.org/~brotzman/07-25-03_SEPTA_MFL-BRIDGE-ST-LAST-DAY/
And some teasers that include:
Here are some railfans and the SEPTA Rail Transport GM framed in the window of the last car number 1134.
The moment before the last revenue trains crosses onto the rehabilitated portion of the el for the last time:
Partly disassembled trip stops. Everything and I mean everything that could have been taken appart before servivce was suspended was. Even while we were on the platform they carted away the garbage cans and several Bridge Pratt signs.
Finally, the best photo I have of a US&S A-10 pneumatic switch machine. These are the most numerous type of pneumatic on the NYCS:
Bill "Newkirk"
I like that one. Not only does it look like he was annoyed at you taking the pic, you took it right in his face. :)
John
At any rate, Mothra blasts through a concrete building in (presumably) Tokyo that says SUBWAY on it; terrified riders scream for help on a subway train and an elevated train that looks like a cross between the Acela and Disneyland's monorail zips across a concrete guideway as the monsters trudge through the buildings, causing havoc.
Were these trains, though obviously scale models, supposed to represent real subway or elevated lines? Was any filming, rail-wise done on location? Did the subway interior shots replicate a real Tokyo subway train?
The 1984 thriller, C.H.U.D.(Cannabilistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers) mentioned the Chambers St. station of the J M and Z lines and showed that domed police HQ building at or near Lafayette and Prince Sts. a short distance uptown.
Story here
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/115274p-103965c.html
Story here
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/115274p-103965c.html
Right after WWE.... thanks for the tip!
I enjoyed seeing it again though!
And we all can see for the umpteenth time Martin Balsam blowing his chance to leave the TA and retire a rich man because of his blasted head cold !
Bill "Newkirk"
" AAAATTCHHOOO"
"Gezuntheit!"
Jimmy :)
"Gezuntheit!"
The final scene with Walter Matthau's facial expression after the sneeze was the coup de grace !
Bill "Newkirk"
PRICELESS
Jimmy
As far as his career goes, I don't think any other movie tops "The Odd Couple", even Pelham.
Jimmy
Quoted in the DVD liner notes, Matthau said, "My first day of work was in an abandoned subway tunnel in Brooklyn. You can't get any lower than that. Before this journey underground, I hadn't been on the trains for years. I can remember the time of my youth when I didn't even have enough money to buy a token - and that was when they cost five cents!"
I doubt he was a railfan...
Hadn't he had already left the TA by that point? Wasn't he on the list of "former employees" they were interviewing?
Hey Fred, what lines did you like from the flick?
Jimmy
Hector Elizondo was chewing gum like a cow early on the film.
So the tunnel the prisoners built was the mini-Sea Beach. Great film, great REAL motorcycle sequence with the late Steve McQueen (of course he did all the motocycle stunts himself.)
That same year the film was released, (1963) Robert Shaw played Mr. Red Grant, a cold blooded killer in "From Russia With Love".
"Well that's a nasty Christmas present" - Sean Connery
"Oh, Conductor."
"Y-You mean me?"\
No, he means one of the seventeen other Conductors in the car... :-P
Jimmy
I guess when someone gets so old and senile, it's difficult to tell which decade something is.
Jimmy
The other hijacker was played by Earl Hindman, who later played the next-door neighbor on "Home Improvement", and, at the time the movie was being made, was playing Det. Bobby Reid on the late, great Soap Opera "Ryan's Hope".
(Lt. Garber to each person at the helm)
"She's moving"
"who's moving?"
"Pelham 1-2-3 (or the train)"
repeat sequence 4 times.
"And right over here is our Operations Lt, Mr Rico Patrone, who on weekends works for the Mafia."
"And I'm trying to run a railroad, for chrissake. While you're playing 'Grabb-Ass' with a bunch of freakin' pirates."
Jimmy
Mayor
"What does this city get(for saving the passengers)?"
Mrs. Mayor
"18 SURE VOTES"
Guess who the actress is playing now (Doris Roberts)?
Jessie (mayor's wife): I know a million dollars sounds like a lot of money, but just think of what you'll get in return.
Mayor: What?
Jessie: 18 sure votes.
Mayor: All right, all right. Warren, Warren, arrange for the payoff!
Seputy Mayor: Hallelujah!
"They set me up!".
Hehehehe
Laugh all you want, moron. :(
I think you responded to the wrong post.
We have no problems, dude. Your political beliefs are insane, but you're not alone in that category.
When o-rings failed in brake stand "floats," there's ALWAYS shrapnel from it. NONE found, which means that someone REMOVED a critical part. Then being told back then that the train, which was tying up a relay track, was made to SIT there gumming up the railroad until *I* arrived, whereupon an unusual WAA was given me to "lay it up" WITHOUT notification that it was bad-ordered, nor was it tagged as bad order per rules ... I could go on and on, but as a rookie I never knew this when I was there. Finding out YEARS later was MOST upsetting. It's VERY personal to me now that I know what it was all about.
But like yourself, 9/11 TRANSFORMED me too ... whereas I was fairly ambivalent about politics (I used to be a reporter, and a middle of the roader - I always thought BOTH sides were nuts) UNTIL I learned about all the budget cuts and silly rules passed by the REPUBLICANS which GUTTED the FBI, NSA, NRO, INS and others to the point where NONE of the agencies had the personnel or the equipment upgrades to have KEPT Attah and others out of the country to begin with, and that TOO became personal to me ... the "Contract ON America" gutted the very agencies that ultimately MIGHT have prevented 9/11 from happening at all. I never got over that since I lost 3 childhood friends (2 NYFD, 1 EMS), friends at Cantor-Fitzgerald, two PAPD friends, and the rest from NYS Tax and Finance who transferred there from Albany for a total of 12 souls I knew and loved who were lost ...
But there it is ... I will NEVER forgive the republican party and the Newt Gingrich/Rush Limbaugh neocons for killing my friends by their neglect of bare MINIMUM funding for the agencies that let us down as a result of their inability to deal with what was in their faces. HOPE you understand, and once again, I'm sorry ... but I *do* have reasons for my chitty attitude when it comes to republicans. I used to BE one.
OK, Selkirk. Whatever you say. The elephant is evil. The elephant must be destroyed.
LOL
But what the old PAC-yderm is doing to Amtrak, so have they done to those agencies that are supposed to be the ONE thing a federal government exists to do. And they FAILED. But hey, no skin off MY back, I don't live in NYC. Ain't anything WORTH blowing up around here. :)
Which sorta proves the brainstem power California's awakened ... but no, not the LEAST bit interested in governing. These are times of bread and circuses ... I've SEEN the clowns, where's my gott damm sammich? :)
Jimmy
Not a kind one in the bunch.
There were next to NO wimmens on the trains in my day - the TA actually TOLD women "we don't hire for conductor or motorman, you'd be best in a token booth." The FIRST women to break the barriers as conductors went through HELL in the crew rooms. And a couple made it to motor schoolcar. I thought it was GREAT, but the first ones that made it got put through HELL to get there. I'm glad after all these years to see an almost even mix, or close to it.
My own wife is a HELL of a motorman, as she's proved to those in attendance at Branford ... hell, she's better than ME at handling live Arnine. :)
I know we at Subtalk are begging for you to come down before the season is over.
SERIOUSLY, have wanted to get down there every damned month this year. To give you an idea of how BAD it is, and how BUSY we've been - we never unpacked the lawn furniture for the summer. Kinda pointless now. :(
Oh, for an economy ... alas, all we've got is this tax cut. STILL waiting for a check, but I didn't EARN enough to get one. :(
Yep, Nancy knows how to run a train.:)
From start to Finish.
59th st/Lex, Mr. Gray or Blue enters subway at 59th st across from Bloomingdales. He uses cross-under (this shot was done on purpose to let viewers know) to other side of 59th st Downtown platform. All were shot on location.
51st st/Lexington: Fake station and I'd like to know where it was REALLY filmed, was it City Hall LL? or somewhere else. Only place in the film where I couldn't identify it.
Grand Central-Real station
28th st-was Court St station as I discussed but the outside of 28th st was real, at the southbound side of the station. The entrance was closed, the current entrance is around the corner with SVBWAY at stairs.
All exterior shots of the film were taken at actual locations, the FDR with the WTC in background, the police car that flipped over and crashed was at Astor Place (with a New Look or Fishbowl bus parked across the street). The car where Lt. Garber and Insp. Daniels park is at park Ave South and Broadway, north side of Union Sqaure. The Bridge where Lt. Garber asks the officer and he relents on collecting the 50 cents as payback for him being let go is the Triboro Bridge. 23rd st and 14th st as the officers dispersed when the train was a runaway are both real. And the end where the train stops after tripping at the homeball was (I think) Bowling Green station, SB side. Note the orange wall on the left side.
Hope this clears up a lot of issues.
This not puts to rest on the South Ferry issue, we hope. If anyone has a DVD or VHS copy of Pelham, fast-forward to that scene and judge that orange wall. Remember the new Bowling Green was renovated before the film was made.
What I was saying was that you can recognize Bowling Green Station, but that's not where the script says the train is. An unimportant inconsistency that only railfans like us would notice.
Bowling Green station wasn't orange in 1974.
The movie was released in 1972.
And the end where the train stops after tripping at the homeball was (I think) Bowling Green station, SB side. Note the orange wall on the left side.
The movie was released in 1972.
It was released in 1974.
Bowling Green received its orange walls in 1978, four years after the movie was filmed.
OTOH an R-10 could fit in the Dual Contracts Grand Central station - if you shaved back the platforms and moved the signals.
As we would say on Nitpickers.com,
Not considered a nitpick: it is essential and reasonable for the plot
Chuck Greene
www.tvguide.com (you can type it in!)
enter your little zip code and run SEARCH LISTINGS brah
PS:
Didn't find a matching topic in the archive of SubTalk.
Maybe i've missed the information while reading on pages about
the history of NYC subway. It would be nice i've someone can
halp me. Thanks.
I had heard from a reputable source many years ago that a substantial part of the connection was built but that the City blocked further work and caused it to be dismantled because the BRT or BMT closed a street that was crossed without permission.
I consider this at best an open question, because I've never found further evidence that this ever happened, though the plans were certainly well advanced.
Someone mentioned at one point that there was some kind of sttel car/wooden car issue as well. I'm not sure about that, but it's interesting to think about what would have happened if this connection had been made. Would there have been a real effort to build the Nassau Street line? As it was, it was just about thelast Dual Contracts line to have been completed.
The Nassau Loop was delayed because of city obstruction.
Equipment would never be replaced!
We would have several dysfunctional "scenic" routes.
No poor services would ever die.
I would not ride it.
You keep your interest, but the "foamers", who know little and spew greatly, go on your ignore list.
The transit industry (and the railroad industry) are slowly learning that an employee who is motivated by more than just the paycheck makes a better employee.
But a "Career in Transportation" *is* the ultimate 12 Step program for anyone who drools when they hear a whistle. :)
"Thank you for contacting NJ TRANSIT via the Internet.
Please be advised that the Hudson Bergen Light Rail will have single-track service to 2nd Street, 9th Street and Lincoln Harbor in May 2004. Port Imperial, Bergenline and Tonnelle Avenue stations will have double track service by July 2005. There are no intermediate steps, such as single track to Tonnelle Avenue. "
It appears as though they are running even further behind schedule as the section to Lincoln Harbor was suppposed to be open in Feb. '04. Actually, the section through Port Imperial was to open via double-track in late 2003. I forgot to ask about the Bayonne extension though.
Two things that are disappointing: 1) that there will be no intermediate step of double-tracking to Lincoln Harbor between 5/04 and 7/05; 2) that the previously mentioned Patterson Plank crossing is at grade. There is an exhaustive amount of grade crossings w/in JC (thus slowing the line considerably), and with the efforts to neatly wrap the line under the NJT tracks, it seems like the efforts will go to waste, especially when you consider that both the tracks and street rise vertically at the intersection. It may be that the tracks could have simply dipped a little and the road rise just a little more and this wouldn't be a problem.
I think the Bergenline station will have a very high level of usage, but have my doubts about Tonnelle (at least until MOS-3 is built).
Canal Street, the platform that will reamin open , was already renovated about 5 years ago . Quite nicely if I do say so myself .
Therefore Bowery will also be affected by the realignment. Essex will still have both of its platforms in play, except that northbound trains will now stop on the middle track instead of the track adjacent to the dead trolley terminal. Both Bowery and Essex are under renovation.
Looking at the work from the platform, it seems that no signal work has been done yet. Once that is done, they need to put covers on the third rail and make the actual track connection.
Anyone know if the contract for the signal work has been signed or at least put out for bids?
I remember that in 1982. SEPTA offered Broad Street Subway (BSS) cars in good operable condition for $100! each. You must provide transportation.
My wife would not let me have a subway car anyway. So instead I will take a stainless steel car that looks on the outside like a subway car. I mean, the same "skin." Someday, will it ever come?
otherwise, wait till 2012 for the R32 to be retired and buy one
I could get a license number that reads BMT-1 or BMT-R11. Can it be R32, it is not ridged.
Green marker lights would be for the Fourth Ave local. The Brighton Exp was red and green.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Did that include brake handles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Which probably would cost hundreds of dollars. Not to mention that local zoning authorities might not always take kindly to having an old subway car in one's yard.
Oh, I assume the fans would be replaced as they were removed from all the B1 cars except a train of restored KYW Stadium cars.
Last I heard, a dollar figure of $5000 for riggers to lift the subway car and a truck and special trailer to transport it. I guess we can figure into that price road permits and other miscellaneous goodies. And $5000 was not a recent figure either.
Bill "Newkirk"
Body was great, engine was pure junk. The national club is called the DeLorean Owners Association: "D.O.A."
:)
" Do you know of any internships where my son, when he gets a little older, can do some kind of transportation related job? He loves trains, buses, and the like now and has had a lot of experience and contact with them. I think eventually he'll enter this kind of field. I thought I could help him get some kind of summer work in this area."
I don't think he means taking a civil service exam and getting called for a job with NYCT. I think he means something different. If anyone can help, I'll forward any response to him. His son is barely a teenager now and loves trains and buses. A budding railfan if you may !
Bill "Newkirk"
Do not just try one agency, try several. I tried several different agencies and contacts and in the end, only one was willing to take me in. Also, suggest that this person's son develop as many contacts as he can. I actually got my contact through a bus driver who told the person who ran the driver route and scheduling committee about me. I then got this person's card and called up the office. A few months later, I was in.
We're still working on setting it up for 2003-2004. Nothing confirmed yet. What you would actually do in the internship is between you and SEPTA.
Six semesters? Are you nuts? That can't be right.
Last major word was that NJ Transit found themselves able to secure property conducive to building yard space in the Sparta vicinity, one of the factors that startup of service hinged on (though, to my view, if NJT had instead pushed for operating service via the former Lehigh & Hudson portion to Campbell Hall NY, the yard space would not have been such a factor and NJT could have an alternate route to/from Port Jervis). No further funding has been appropriated for this project, nor has any EIS been filed. It is veritably on the back burner.
Didn't the R-33ML's not get along well with the R-33WF's? What's going to be the eleventh car, an R-62A?
I assume they will be running with R-33 singles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Someone got to save R36. No R33 ML on 7-PLEASE!
I know for a fact that they want redbirds on the Corona garbage train, rev collector, and others work trains around the system.
But I hope my source was incorrect. I would kill to operate a 33 on the Flushing Line.
;-) Andrew
Looks like you jumped the gun on this one. You told me on AIM that you really weren't sure what they ML's would be used for, so why did you post here authoritatively that they would be put into revenue service? This is a big let down. I was so excited, but now it seems they will only be used for work service. It's a good thing I held on to a little doubt.
Some kiddies need attention.
I guess I'm not going anywhere beyond standing on a platform watching the trains pass by.
There's LIRR/MNRR and you can trick out NJT Comet IV and V cabs to give you a railfan view when they are in the trailing position.
Why not get into how the new cars work? There's a lot of stuff to learn.
And today's new cars will be tomorrow's classics. I have little doubt that railfans will someday be sceaming bloody murder when their "classic" R142's are being replaced with R267's or whatever.
I personally like the new cars, and it's interesting to see how the technology and aesthetic design are continuing to evolve. The old stuff is nice for its historic appeal, and I gladly support the museums that preserve such equipment. But the NYCTA is not a museum; it's a crucial piece of infrastructure. As a daily commuter, I think I'd be royally pissed if I had to ride to work everyday in an R9 with no A/C.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The reason I don't like the R142s and 143s is because they look as if they stopped paying the designer when it came to the interior of the cars. It is a stark,sterile ugly barren design. It's like the R40s, pretty on the outside and awful on the inside.
I wonder what the R143s would be like if the BMT were still around
That all depends on what the next cars are like. If, as I predict, the next cars are nothing more than incrementally more advanced, slightly different designed cookie cutter versions of today's crap, most railfan attitudes will hover close to indifferant. I'm sure you'll see LED vs LCD route sign arguements and LCD vs colour LCD arguements and arguements about which have the better automated anouncements. But unless they eliminate windows or completely eliminate passing through from the 267's, railfans won't really care that much.
When they kill the R44/46/68 I'll be partying in the streets. Older is not necessarily better, better is better.
I think I'd be royally pissed if I had to ride to work everyday in an R9 with no A/C.
But you'd give yourself a distinct advantage in being able to cope with future rounds of global warming and not be like those Frenchies who drop like flies when it gets over 100 degrees. I wouldn't mind seeing transit vehicles that try to promote physical fitness and evolutionary adaptation.
Actually, a better saying about the Fresh Pond station is what Gertrude Stein said about Oakland:
There is no there, there.
Here is one case where the business health of easy-to-reach-by-ferry Lower Manhattan can effect other areas of the city. The aspect of direct ferry service to Wall Street can only work if there are enough people working down there...or the reverse, enough people living downtown and working around L.I.C. I understand there has been a reduction in the jobs downtown. Still should be enough to support the boats though, "if planned properly".
This connects with the Montauk Line threads since the line terminates at riverside, more or less. So with that in mind, it's hard to figure out just exactly why the line was disused. I guess the cost of the ride was a big drawback. Maybe if the ferry was included in the ticket price it would have been a bigger draw.
wayne
There wasn't much to eradicate. Basically they all look the same as they did in 1995. These were what they looked like when in service. They didn't need to eradicate much, all they did in most circumstances was remove the sign from near a grade crossing!
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free @ www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Mom probably didn't have a choice. At that age, ankle biters have to go now.
Peace,
ANDEE
The city had to get some sort of exemption from the state.
You need staff to clean it frequently and stock it with supplies, and you need cops or security guards who will haul offenders out of the bathroom. At times like this, where's the $$$ for that?
Decent compared to what? Maybe compared to a clogged toilet in a homeless shelter during an amoebic dysentery epidemic. And even that's a stretch.
But then of course, you have higher standards than most of us :0)
You'll be happy to know that they are now among the cleanest public toilets in the city.
Peace,
ANDEE
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Roosevelt did until recently, when it was closed due to construction. But it was quite filthy.
Notice the stall with doors that are higher than the toilet?
They used to have one guy stand in a shopping bag so that to the casual observer only one person was in the stall.
The toilet had no stalls at the time
How I would do it? I would stick my boot up someones ass.
More likely, there's nothing more suitable available. So the platform end has to suffice.
And yes even Guiliani backed down on 'straightening' up the Ramble.
If you don't know it's the part of Central Park where men have sex even after the park closes. If you don't know to keep away your kids can get an eyeful.
That's just plain sickening. Nobody "owns" any part of any park, besides the fact that all taxpayers have a "share" in the park. It's like having sex on a train. What a bunch of idiots!
I'm sorry...but I ain't buying that analogy. It's not like there is an unspoken knowledge in the city that "there is a church where you may engage in sex, and any churchgoers with children should cover their eyes...". That was a truely oddball event. But it's nothing like the fact of public sex going on every day in a public park in the biggest city in the country. To bring up the few examples of lewd public displays of heterosexual behavior, and try to compare it to the phenomena known as "The Ramble" is, well, dishonest.
Umm, yea, reopen and maintain the restrooms.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pay toilets are one solution (requires a state law change)... Price should be at least $1. The money raised pays for the salary of the maintenance persons, suplies and repairs etc.
Other options include resturants etc inside fare control (at such locations as can support the business) and they can maintain the facilities, and pay for cleaning their areas.
As for fare control: place an open booth on the fare control line so that the attendant may attend to the needs of persons on either side.
No money in the booth at all. Patrons put their $5, $10 and $20s in a change machine and get $1 coins to be used as needed, or for their purchases.
_______________________________________
Change and MVM Machines
___________[BOOTH] | | | | ______________
RestRoom |
(Unisex)
_________|
Elias
The R-68a had the second highest.
I'd say the 68's are very reliable. They may not be pretty but they get the job done.
They are very sleek cars when clean!
Jamesburg is a town in New Jersey built on the original Camden and Amboy line. It is 5 miles east of the NEC and was home to the JG block station and interlocking. The PRR electrified from Monmouth Jct to Jamesburg and then through to South Amboy on the old C&A for coal traffic that never really materialized. This had the distinction of being the last Conrail line to loose its PRR wires. Jamesburg is now embroiled in the big NJT M-O-M Line NIMBY fight as it is the home of NIMBY's standing in the way of ppl from Freehold who want NEC access. JG interlocking was sort of an intersection between the north south C&A line and the Jamesburg Branch to Monmouth Jct to the west and the Freehold branch to Freehold to the west.
You can find the Perryville and Jamesburg pics here:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-02-03_PERRYVILLE+JAMESBERG/
And the PERRY tower pics at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And of course a teaser or two:
Here is one of two Amtrak trains that passed at Perryville. In fact, they are timed to meet on the bridge so I didn't have long to wait between them. Unfortunately there is a 90mph speed restriction over the bridge so I didn't get to seem them blast through at full speed.
Here is the Perryville Station, if you loose closely you'll see it is market PW&B or Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington RR. This was formally absorbed into the PRR around 1900 as one of those 99-year lease deals.
Finally, here is a now empty signal gantry/catenary support at what used to be JG block station.
"If the steel rails under and above the streets of New York can bridge the gaps between stations, those SAME steel rails can ALSO bridge the gap between cultural and racial differences. Sadly, with crime bieng as it is (as in most major cities), many choose not to venture into "strange" nieghborhoods. Realistically, yes; it is sad BUT true, that many areas of NYC are questionable by day, and downright dangerous at night. BUT, with so many rich and diverse areas reasonably safe by day, the subway can afford not only the tourists, but NEW YORKERS THEMSELVES glimpses of other distant lands.
Most certainly, racism and bigotry are sadly alive and well in New York, but, that is the WORLD today, not simply New York. The subway affords one to travel the world without ever leaving the city. There are new foods to try, new people to meet, new cultures to learn about. Look at how many colors of people ride the subway every day...the subway could well be described as the "THE RAINBOW FLEET", or "THE WORLD'S RAILWAY".
New York subways are jammed with many kinds of people; many arrogant, rude, or downright DANGEROUS...BUT, it is ALSO important to remember there are many good folks in the subway as well. From personal experience, I know all too well how bigotry and intolerance and lead to physical violence.
Here, at SubTalk, there is obviously a VERY diverse group of fellows......different races, different religions, different orientations, different personalities. BUT, we ALL share the love of the SUBWAY, and in that, we have MUCH in common!! White, Black, or Hispanic; straight or gay, Christian or Jewish, we are ALL SubTalkers....ALL transit buffs....and, more importantly....ALL HUMAN BIENGS...with feelings and emotions.
So truly, the steel rails of the subway system CAN link more than stations together....it can link lives together as well!! 8-)"
All I'm sayin', bro, is that paragraphs do make postings easier to read. Hell, I'm all for "stream of conciousness" output. But even that can easily adhere to readibility standards. So I hope you didn't take offense.
And what a great movie it is!
In the opening scene, there's a brief shot of the lower level at 59th when the scene otherwise takes place on the upper level.
Still the best subway movie ever made.
Jimmy
THE INCIDENT (link to www.eonline.com with details) ...
Did you also catch the "ksssss" sound as the doors opened at "Grand Central". Not very authentic, considering the R-21/22s had electric door engines.
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep,
sounds when your always afraid
step out of line and they come and take you away
you better stop look and watch that sound
every looks at what's coming around.
Ultimately he can speak for HIMSELF if he chooses to, but I can at least point out that he convinced me PERSONALLY that any rumors of his being corralled in by the TA are untrue.
Damned "knuckle draggers." :)
Yes, because after his defeat at my hands, he knew it was time to cut is losses and retreat.
Your gatherer went astray, Fred.
Brother Elias is in North Dakota.
After several back and forths, she appeared to have had her fill of it and cancelled the tour. While the MTA has made it clear that they didn't want "inside information that could be of benefit to terrorists" disclosed publicly, I don't believe either of these two people were muzzled specifically. A memo recommending that employees THINK before saying anything WAS apparently circulated to all, but I don't recall anything which required them to not say anything. A copy of that memo found its way onto subtalk as well, and I read it.
One DOES have to make a choice though when pressed by outsiders as to whether the trouble that can result from other people's stupidity is worth it ... and I suspect that was ultimately the force behind certain people's personal decisions. A lack of maturity and common sense has occurred WAY too many times of late. If *I* worked for the MTA today, I'm not so sure of what my own participation level would be. We've collectively by our own behavior driven away people who used to dish out great stories that were carefully told in such a way as to not get people in trouble. However some decided to get way too specific about things ... I'll leave it there.
Don't tell me you let the terrorists win :(
You are letting the terrorists win. :(
It was not the MTA and NYCT's fault. It was YOUR FAULT for whining that you can't take pictures on Peggy's tour. Congrats to you for having Peggy kill off the tours.
Qtraindash7 ranting about picture taking on Peggy's tour
Enough said!
Peace,
ANDEE
Truth is, more people would rather talk about that crazy guy from California who got a T/O in trouble(I forget his name), than talk about trains. Many subtalkers who posted regularly when Train Dude was at his peak have pretty much left the boards.
This discussion is getting boring.
Does anyone know what I can use or do to clean up these files? or if anyone can offer some advice, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! :-)
Sure. Best one I've seen is Goldwave. Shareware but you can really push it to the max without registering. If you get it though, throw the brother some change. Goldwave is a world-class application.
Goldwave Audio Editor Site
- What equipment were you using to make the recordings? Also, a general description of how you had it set up and how you were using it while you were recording would be very helpful.
- What kind of environment(s) were you recording in (i.e., underground stations [well enclosed or fairly open] or above ground or on elevated, was there much background noise etc.)
- What post production (after recording) equipment and software do you have availible to use?
Unfortunately, the results from rescuing poor original recordings won't be as good as a clean original; it's a lot like working with pictures on your computer - you can use Photoshop to sharpen pictures and bring the brightness and contrast into line, but they won't be as good as a well exposed, sharply focused original.
If you can give me the background information as I outlined above, I'll see what I can do to help you out as much as I can.
-Robert King
I kinda cleaned up one file ( sorry about my lack of html knowledge)http://2x.ca/temp/soundclip.wav
How do you suggest I should record in an enviornment as windy and boomy/echo prone as an R142/a? The wind of the airconditioning created a pretty bad hiss, and i'm not sure how to avoid that.
Personally, I'd also skip the digital voice recorder and settle for a reasonably good quality portable cassette recorder (like a Sony Walkman Professional or other similar devices - they can also be found in used equipment shops which also helps save some money) and a [uni]directional microphone (again, try the used equipment stores) since it will only pick up sound originating from in front of it (hold below a speaker) while rejecting sound originating from around it (background noise).
If you're still having problems with background noise, especially if it's coming from a specific direction, such as the air conditioning sound, hold the microphone below the speaker with one hand and use your other to hold a piece of cardboard positioned beside the micrphone so that it's positioned to block the sound you don't want to pick up. If you're going to do this, you'll need to have your recorder clipped to your belt or inside a backpack, though, because it'll be hard to hold at the same time.
Hopefully this is of some help...
-Robert King
He came to talk to me again,first a couple of women,(who I had seen for the past month and had asked me why I was taping each time) stopped him.After talking to him,he came to me and asked me very nastily why I was here again.I told him I was just taping.He asked me why I come here on Fridays only.I told him they have a couple of extra trains I could videotape.He than said the following:
1.That I could be sending the tapes over to Iraq
2.That he could give me a ticket for loitering
3.That I made those 2 women "very nervous and frightened"
4.What is my fascination with trains.
5.He did not want to see me there anymore or there would be serious consquences.
My answers to him:
1.My family roots go back to the revolutionary war,and I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!!
2.Go ahead and give me a ticket,I will fght it.
3.I have MANY women express fascination and intrigue over what I do.I have gotten many compliments.A few people are going to be nervous.I cant help that.
4.What is your fascination with harassing me over videotaping the trains.I have been a railfan since I was a kid!!
5.I told him in a very stern tone "I have not broken any laws.You cannot do NOTHING to me.You will see me next Friday.If you continue to harass me without just cause,I will take legal action against you!!!"
He backed off greatly.I then asked him this question
"Why dont you go afte the MANY passegers I see crossing under the gate when it is down,orwalking across the tracks in a restricted area? (where it switches off to Oyster Bay,many people walk across the track bed to take an illegal shortcut to Willis Ave) He toldme "I cant be here all the time" I answered "but you can find the tme to harass and accuse me of false charges huh?" with that he walked off.
I am not suggestng that any of you do what I did but DAMMNITTTT!!!!!! I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO BE INTIMADATED BY ANYONE IF I AM JUST ENJOYING ONE OF THE MANY FREEDOMS THAT MY ANCESTORS SPILLED THIER BLOOD FOR IN THE BATTLE FOR THIS COUNTRYS INDEPENDENCE!!!!
but you did good and they have no right to take away our right to procuite to life, liberty and happyness.
I am disgusted that these two cowardly c***s would go running to the police just because they see someone innocently (and legally) videotaping trains. That is disgraceful, and thanks to them arcingcatenary got hassled by the police.
Jimmy
;)
Peace,
ANDEE
We do show the transit/police/uniformed services types some leniency, so long as they give us some leniency to do whatever we need to get done, such as requesting that the (limited stop express) bus should stop at every designated stop [as per Bus Ops rules] and announce every stop so that disembarkation is possible, or take videos of trains...
AEM7
(South Motor) Single-Single-Single-Single-Single-Single-xxx6-xxx7-xxx8-xxx9-xxx0 (North Motor)
(Linked R62A sets have numbers ending in 1-5 or 6-0 so could also be:
xxx1-xxx2-xxx3-xxx4-xxx5
or vice versa.
> how would do it for a bus.
Take my example and replace the word "subway" with "bus"
-time to travel from southern terminal to northern terminal
-time to travel from northern terminal to southern terminal
-time between arrival and departure of the train at the northern terminal
-time between arrival and departure of the train at the southern terminal
The result is the time a train needs for a complete round.
Divide this result by the train headaway and you have the number of
trains on this line.
If this is not clear ask you parents or teacher!
David
It is nearly impossible to properly estimate the minimum number of trainsets on a given line, when that line has multiple terminals or variations in service. The 7 line has BOTH of these characteristics. It has local and express service, and it has three north terminals (111 St, Willets Pt, Main St).
The A, E, F, G, J, L, M, Q, Z, 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 all have this problem. Further, the schedule has many lapses of "Then every x-y minutes until:" where it just says a relative freqency but not an exact schedule.
Also they have way more than 110 cars on the 7 line, those are just the number of redbird cars remaining (actually now I think it's less than that).
David
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/07/nyregion/07SEAC.html
leaving NY u have
PENN WEST leads into the HUDSON TUBES
BERGEN
ALLIED
ERIE (SECAUCUS BEGINS)
LACK (SECAUCUS ENDS)
PORTAL(WHEN NEC TRAINS CROSS THE BRIDGE)
SWIFT( MIDTOWN DIRECT SEPERATES HERE)
HUDSON( DOCK CONTROL BEGINS)
REA(PATH YARD LOCATED NEAR BY)
DOCK(BY HARRISON PATH STOP)
AFTER LEAVING DOCK U ENTERING NEWARK
LEAVING NEWARK U HAVE
CLIFF
HUNTER
HAYNES
LANE
DOCK'S CONTROL ENDS AT LANE. UNION TOWER CONTROLS THE REST. I BELIEVE MIDWAY WAS CLOSED. MIDWAY TOWER MIGHT STILL BE STANDING NEAR RAHWAY. im not sure. i havent been beyond newark.
Since HUDSON closed Section A dispatcher controls ALLIED through REA.
DOCK controls DOCK through LANE and UNION Controls ELMORA and UNION. Both towers operate under supervision of the Section B dispatcher. Between UNION and MORRIS the track is controled by CTEC-6. All old towers south of UNION are still standing.
You neglected to add that Midway is in Monmouth Junction.
Yes, that is the proposal. The study was called "access to the region's core."
Linked for the Lazy
Secaucus Transfer Station Article
Most of the time. When I feel like it. :0)
Chuck Greene
It really does have a better range of view this makes a BIG difference in yards.
Safer employee pickups.
Less claustrophobic.
More room for all the stuff we are required to carry and stuff that is useful to carry when you do not have a picked job.
The TSS can ride in your cab without distracting you by opening and closing the door.
If you are operating a transverse cab is just so much more pleasant.
Why would you want to encourage the TSS to ride in your cab?
If you are operating a transverse cab is just so much more pleasant.
The SEPTA MFL half cabs are exceedingly plush. Since the T/O should not be leaving his post, he has no need of a full sized cab.
Less claustrophobic.
You are lucky to have a job at all, not taking up standing room for 4 additional passengers just to stretch your legs.
Safer employee pickups.
How so?
It really does have a better range of view this makes a BIG difference in yards.
There is a selection bias. Newer cars are ones with transverse cabs. Cab design has improved for all cars since the 60's. To be fair you'd need to compare a modern full cab with a modern half cab.
If you are operating a transverse cab is just so much more pleasant.
The NYCTA does not exist for the sake of its employees, it exists for the sake of its riders.
Umm, yup right, 98% of who could give 2 shits about a RFW.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I'll repeat my photo illustrating Chuck Greene's point about these OPTO cars having good railfan window accommodations with this shot taken from the third row.
The subway is a complicated and confusing place. The more accessible its secrets are to the public, the better the public will understand it. For instance, someone who's figured out that there are interlockings at Nevins and Mott won't be terribly confused when his 2 train gets sent up the East Side, but would rightly be confused if his 2 train got sent over the Manhattan Bridge. While promoting this level of understanding isn't NYCT's primary task, it's in NYCT's interest to make it available to those who are interested.
Transverse cabs are fine, but if there's a way to avoid them, that would be even better.
>>Why would you want to encourage the TSS to ride in your cab?
It's his job and I don't really have a choice so it might as well not affect safety by throwing a glare on my window everytime they open and close the door. It also gives passengers the wrong idea that the TO is available to chew the fat on demand.
>The SEPTA MFL half cabs are exceedingly plush. Since the T/O should >not be leaving his post, he has no need of a full sized cab.
Two hours in a 44 is not nice unless you are a dwarf and it is not uncommon to take that long to the Rock get ten minutes off and do it again.
>You are lucky to have a job at all, not taking up standing room for >4 additional passengers just to stretch your legs.
Why dont I operate from the coupler and you can get a double railfan window? Why am I lucky to have a job, do you know sometihng about me I don't? Are you lucky to have a stipend and shouldn't you show your appreciation by studying in the library?
>How so?
That should be evident, the blackout made it even more true when I had to get the EED.
>There is a selection bias. Newer cars are ones with transverse cabs. >Cab design has improved for all cars since the 60's. To be fair >you'd need to compare a modern full cab with a modern half cab.
Not true at all, there are fewer blind spots on a 68 Vs. 62 in non-transverse mode. And in fact there is at least one blind guy alive because I could see him on the other side fumbling around.
>The NYCTA does not exist for the sake of its employees, it exists >for the sake of its riders.
True but it can survive without buffs, not without employees.
The only problem I find with MSTS is that there's no NYC Subway routes.
There is also a story of a man who was standing and reading D.H. Lawrence when he notices a woman seated in front of him reading the same book. He falls in love with her, but has trouble getting the words out of his mouth.
There was a wonderful story of a man named Tony who used to hang out at Stillwell Avenue and make public service annoucements explaining the changes in service.
There is a report on a sociologist's study years ago in the subway where people asked seated passengers to let them have their seat.
You can access this program by clicking on this and then clicking on an audio link at the site
I'm curious if anyone checks this out and what they think of the show.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wayne
PUHLEEES, Give it a rest! These cars have served well, but IT IS TIME FOR THEM TO GO.
Peace,
ANDEE
No it won't.
Who knows what will go after that?
Will Stainless Steel yield to aramid fiber composites? Will we mourn the passing of the R160s or R-174s as the last off the stainless steel fleet?
Perhaps even the drunken railfan window will be eliminated, so that we will be well and truely screwed, be thankful that there is a window there at all!
There could even come a time when the MTA undergoes a massive modernization program, installing ATO equipment, CCTV systems, Platform gates, and ultimately talking the union into OPTO operation. Since it makes much more sense for the operator of the doors to be in the center of the train, the T/O could be in the middle of the train, driving the train through CCTV cameras displayed on Plasma HDTVs. This, of course, would open up the front of the trains to us Railfans and interested parties, however there would no doubt be those who would shed a tear for the R236s, which just 40 years before had abolished the RFW, while their comrades celebrate the arrival of the R442s.
So anyway, all things are impermanent, just enjoy them for the time that they are in your life and then move on. You cannot be unhappy if you just go with it!
Are you high?
Peace,
ANDEE
THE H3LL IT IS. (or ISN'T). I can't figure out what the correct response is. I need to curse better.
The 12xx R-142's are starting to enter passenger service now (I spotted 1221-1225 today on the 4), and the R-62 migration to the 3 is in full effect. These 2 things are what's keeping the Redbirds out there. When these 2 events are done, the Redbirds can rest in peace.
Until then, they have to stay out there. It's all about getting those last few R-62a's off the 3 line, and onto the 7 line.
R-142's to the 4 --> R-62's to the 3 --> R-62a's to the 7.
They may be replacing them because the R-33ML are in better condition with working A/C. Other than that, why else replace the WF cars with Mailiners ?
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/overbrook.gif
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/zoo.gif
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/broad.gif
You can see how much or how little has changed since PRR days.
VALLEY is still remote from OVERBROOK tower and ZOO tower still controls what is known as the JO section, the 36th St connection and the 39th St Connection. BROAD tower was re-signaled in the 1980's and had the model 14 machine replaced with an NX board and last march BROAD was closed, resulting in delays, delays and more delays. Signaling is all Amber PRR position lights and position dwarfs and with the recent exception of the 63 switch at VALLEY, all switches are pneumatically operated.
There are three tracks OVERBROOK to ZOO. Back in the day there was a huge freight yard in the middle of the line and passenger trains on 4 track used the flyover at VALLEY to get over the freight tracks and onto the rightmost track at OVERBROOK. In the mid 90's SEPTA built a new maintainance complex on the former freight yard and straight railed the flyover, religating its use only for R6 Cynwyd trains. Inbound R6 trains duck under the whole mess, merging with #1 track at the 63 switch at the old 52nd St station lower level platform (the upper level having been on the flyover). This is used occasionally when the 63 switch freezes up to transfer R6 passengers to R5 trains.
The JO section of ZOO is where the VALLEY flyover ramp starts and the NY-Pittsburg Subway's eastern end is. Back in the day, through NY-Chicago trains would sink down to go through the subway, pass through the JO section, then fly up and over the freight tracks before heading up #4 track to Paoli, Harrisburg and beyond. Truely a triumph of planning and engineering and an exciting ride to say the least!! When the Overbrook Maintainence facility was installed, everything was thrown into a cocked hat with most passenger trains needing to make TWO time consuming diverging movements, one at JO the other at the new STILES interlocking. Today the VALLEY ramp is used for outbound R6 Cynwyd trains and wye movements from 30th St Station.
Heading past the NY->P subway, we reach the 36th St connector, which is how Amtrak trains reach the lower level of 30th St. Then, we meet up with the 39th St connection/tunnel, which is how upper level commuter trains reach the northbound NEC and vice versa. Once past the 39th St connection we enter SEPTA territory. There used to be a Powlerton Ave footbridge on which intermediate signals were mounted, but that has been torn down, the signals placed on new gantries. We round the bend and come upon the Powlerton Ave yard leads. Powlerton dispatches trains originating in Center City and heading onto the former Reading territory. After platforming at 30th St we head into what I call the Doubleslip field (there are 3 paralell double-slip switches) where the 6 30th St tracks go to 4 to head into Suburban Station via what is now the Chineese Ramp (the wall being torn down in 1952). At the botton of the rams of course is the portal into the underground Suburban Station yard throat.
I hope you enjoy the photos, this is a very historic and, unfortunately "rustic" section (my trip was somewhat hampered by a slew of 15/10 mph periment temporary speed restrictions) of what was the famous PRR Main Line.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-10-03_SEPTA-VALLEY-TO-BROAD/
And of course some teasers:
Here is the VALLEY flyover seen from 1 track. Note the signal for PAXON interlocking, part of the Overbrook Shoppes project.
Here is the home signal for what was BROAD interlocking with 30 St Station's grand facade framed by the signal bridge.
And a view of a classic US&S Model-14 interlocking machine.
Very nice.
I mostly want to help other people find the information that I have had so much trouble finding.
Thanks for the feedback.
I wish you every success with it.
til next time
Jimmy
BEHOLD ... the R-16 ... alive and almost well upstate ...
http://www.tmny.org/
Jimmy
You can only be AMUE
I can only be SMEE
Jimmy
NO WAY!!
Dougie can keep her. If I did run her, I would have to operate with my arms crossed. Right hand for the brake, left for the controller. But, I can be a conductor on 1227, but maybe, I may operate her. Still I need to run 1689 before 1227 to get that AMUE feel. But, that's why I like running 1602. Heh, close enough but still different. 4537, way cooler to run. Even operated Third Ave Railway for 10 feet. Trolleys I believe I can handle. 1689, maybe. 1227, HECK NO. At least, not yet. Remember, I'm in a "SMEE State of Mind."
Jimmy :p
Jimmy
"AND NO WIRE BRUSHES!" :)
The shot you showed there though indicated a lot of mud and other schmutz on the end ... that was why it sorta pained me that I couldn't easily close the lid (one of MANY things a motorman was required to look after when prepping a train) and I didn't want to FORCE it closed. ONLY time the lid should be open is DURING a mate with another car, otherwise it needs to be closed. Then again, what IS 1689 going to mate with on the electric portion ANYWAY? :(
But yeah, that was just one of many things you were required to handle when you climbed up on your steed for the day ...
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
(There! Back on topic.)
http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp/
There is a picture and the word "GET" on the left hand side. click it
ANd then there's two links for download, on the left and in the main frame.
And then click the middle download where it says English of course. The game was written in Japan in case your wondering about the text characters.
If you find a place to download MSTS, let me know, even though I dont' have the harddrive space for it.
Evidently the engine derailed and became uncoupled from the passenger cars, causing them to roll back downhill for a short distance. Anyone hear what the cause was and why the engine become uncoupled from the passenger cars ?
Could have been wear and tear or something like somebody threw something from one of the cars or a host of other things. We just will not know until the investigation is finished.
The so-called "engine" is only there for looks, it does not provide power for the train. The train is just a roller coaster, it is pulled uphill by chains, and then coasts downhill to provide its ride.
Nobody will know what happened for months, as the accident is under investigation. There have been so many different reports from the media, and the way everyone has conniptions in here when they can't get anything right about a subway train, do you think they're gonna do any better reporting about a roller coaster? I think not.
If the R-160s are designed correctly, that second problem could dissapear. Instead of running one long train every 20 minutes, the MTA could run one 5-car OPTO train every 10 minutes. This would be a HUGE boon to riders at nighttime, and would dramatically speed up moving around the city, especially multi-transfer trips. Since the only yard work involved would be a single cut and reconnect, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
There's still the issue of the MTA eating the extra pay for the OPTO drivers, but since they're eating my extra 50¢ anyway, I think this is the least they could do.
What do you all think?
At nights trains will probably run 4 or 5 cars on some routes.
Question...
When the C becomes R-160, will it run 10 cars or 8?
If you want to get from here to there, eventually, and stay within the bounds of NYC, you won't find speedy trains anymore. Except for the occasional downhill sprint in a few of the river tubes that can reach 45-50 mph for a few seconds, the average top speed is about 35-40 mph.
The top speed, and time it takes to get there (i.e. acceleration rate) were both reduced some years ago "in the name of safety" following an accident on the Williamsburg Bridge. This topic has been reviewed over and over a number of times on SubTalk... search the archives.
*********************************************************************
I can't tell if things are getting better or worse with this whole Amtrak thing.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Congress
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Well I am assuming Gunn would naturally distain any plan to dismantle his company.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Gunn
http://accessories.gateway.com/AccessoryStore/Consumer+Electronics_381930/Photo_316497/Digital+Cameras_316499/7004855_proddetail.htm?ref=merch
It's very railfan friendly.
- It uses cell batteries, which is great because if your rechargable dies in the field (it has happened to me) you can pop in some fresh duracells. My camera uses a proprietary pack, which cannot be replaced by alkaline batteries.
- 3x optical zoom is good, my camera has 3x.
- 4 Megapixels is great for clear shots. My camera only has 2.
- 32mb memory card in the box already. You will want more, but that's not a bad start. Pick up an additional 64 or 128mb card, which will run about $30-$50.
It's a steal, and barring any major problems it may have outside of the specs (find a review online for it somewhere), it appears to be a sound choice.
The specs are good and for 4MP you can't beat the price...but it's impossible to tell whether or not the camera will perform well in the field until people start doing so and writing reviews.
I know that you are dying for a camera, but my advice when buying any big ticket item such as this is to do as much research as possible.
One of the better review sites for digital cameras is dpreview.com, it's worth checking out and if nothing else it will familiarize you with the important factors to consider when choosing your camera.
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Sheesh, its like every transit agency is getting probed these days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Illinoisjournalists
Fire them all.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Redlands
Extend Metrolink East To Redlands and futher east to Palm Springs
The UP line running to Palm Springs runs through the south side of Redlands, mainly following San Timoteo Canyon Road and running parallel to the 10 by the time it gets to Beaumont. There would have to be either a separate line from SB-PS, or a deal like the PATH's 33rd St to Journal Square via Hoboken service. To get to downtown Redlands, the first line would probably be utilized. There's already a station there.
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For good or for ill its rollin.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Tacoma
Now if only they'd drop that ridiculously expensive Central Link, go for a rapid transit network built off the Green Line monorail, and then reengine the Bredas for continued use. Some Neoplan DuoBuses for the bus tunnel to complement the Bredas would also make sense.
Of course, this is UnSound Transit, they'll just keep going ahead with their complete boondoggle rail line.
It would not be worth the money to re-power the bredas. New buses can be bought for cheaper which use more standard component's. The bredas are already 14 years old, and very obsolete.
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BOOOOOOO, Governor Rolland SUCKS.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Some
How about a light rail type car to make the 6 stops then continue to Stratford & Bridgeport, or maybe to New Haven vs. Bridgeport ?
To me this is a backwards step, i.e. recently they added Shoreline East service to Bridgeport, so killing the connection with Waterbury just doesn't seem to make much since.
The Waterbury branch should switch to buses. In this case, it is fiscally smarter.
Actually, no. The buses used to replace the trains will cost more to operate, use more fuel, and provide inferior service.
Trains make several stops between Waterbury and the mainline connection at Bridgeport - Naugatuck, Beacon Falls, Seymour, Ansonia and Derby-Shelton. Conn. Route 8 is the only logical routing for buses between Waterbury and Bridgeport. If service to and from the intermediate stations is to be maintained, the buses would have to exit the highway each time. Beacon Falls and especially Ansonia would require quite a bit of detouring from Route 8. I know that on the couple of occasions I rode on the line during "bustitution," the running time between Bridgeport and Waterbury was maybe double the train time, or close to it.
If this were the case, then why would Conn DOT do it? Is it because a doctor from Kansas City understands Connecticut transit economics better than the people who are paid to understand it?
No, it's because this doctor understands what Governor Rowland wants to do.
And by the way, I've been in Kansas City 67 months. I've spent as much time on the East Coast as you have, and have been to Bridgeport. Have you been there, wise-ass?
That's 6-7 months, npt 67 months. Moved here in January.
You have no idea how much time I've spent on the East Coast.
I have lived on the East Coast my entire life and in metro NYC for all but 4 years of that time.
If you are asking whether I am there at this very moment, no, I'm in Seattle.
CG
Ha! Gotcha!
Well, at least you have a monorail there. Some rail service is better than one.
I visited Seattle once. Arrived via the Empire Builder. There's a funky place where you can do your laundry and order lunch at the same time, and I think they have live music certain evenings. Do you know the place? I forgot the name.
My wife and I then flew to Alaska. It was a delayed honeymoon trip.
I think I've heard of the place you were describing but I haven't been there. I'm not here for long -- in yesterday, out tonight, and other than a couple of other one and two day trips haven't ever spent much time here. I did get a chance to walk past the monorail station yesterday as well as the trolley line, but didn't ride either. The monorail didn't go in the direction I needed, and the trolley runs with 20 minute headways and it was faster to walk than wait.
CG
second having a Genesis and 2 cars sitting in Bridgeport Yard running will eat about as much fuel as if the train were running.
third the two round trips by bus need a conductor since they replace trains to collect revenue, so only partial crew savings.
Fourth 3 busses are needed to be able to run a leap frog schedule to cover the train time, so 3 drivers and 3 busses.
fifth how many riders per day do you think a two car train doing only 6 round trips per day with 4 off peak round trips should do ???
Conndot had a 4 car bomb train going to GCT a few years back but the train only arrived in GCT at 09:14 making it the worst riden rushhour train in Connecticut since it arrived past most peoples starting time. the first train out of waterbury at that time was the two car shuttle so every body had to transfer in Bridgeport.
Govenor Rowland has a non existing policy for commuter rail and no plan or budget to replace commuter cars approaching the end of their usefull life. if new M equipment were to be ordered today with planns and check in hand there could not be a rail manufacturer be found who could handle an order like that for next 8 years.
just about every plant has its orderbook full.
After the PennCentral debacle, Conrail took over commuter operations on an "interim" basis. Connecticut did not make any plans until about six weeks before Conrail was set to cease operations. (In the interim, New York had set up Metro North.) The only thing they could do was to enter into an agreement with New York whereby MTA made most of the decisions, and Connecticut paid most of the costs.
The original plan for the M2 equipment was to order a bare minimum quantity on the "theory" that the "flexible flyer" Budd cars could be rehabed. Of course, that never took place.
The original M2 equipment is now over its life cycle (even if it had been maintained). The new plan is to sell the CDOT rolling stock to private companies (for them to get the tax benefits over a 30 year period) and to rehab the cars for another 5 - 7 years of use. In short, we will pay for 30 years to get perhaps 7 years of benefits.
(At least 20% of the CDOT equipment is in the yards because it is in need of repair.)
Because of budget problems, the earliest that new cars could be put on the capital budget (and then appropriated) would be FY 2005-6. I understand, however, that they were told that they could have three year delivery (i.e., the new cars would arrive just as the M2 equipment finally gave up for good.
Fairfield County supplies over half the taxes, but receives less than 25% of the spending (and most of that goes to Bridgeport). The only way that upstate will wake up is if either (a) Metro North closes down and Fairfield County stops paying for the rest of the state or (b) Metro North closes down, and the resulting traffic backs up all the way to New Haven, Hartford, and New London.
Having dealt with COnnecticut, I can't FATHOM why NYS is so screwed. We've got it a LOT better than you guys. At least we've had soem democrats here and there. You guys had LOWELL WEICKER. :(
But he has no problem spending what ever it will take to put a forth lane on 95 !
1) There is no possible way that a bus uses more fuel than a diesel locomotive. Even if I were high on mushrooms, I would dismiss that.
2) Explain how a bus with a single driver would cost more than a train with an engineer and a conductor (and possibly a brakeman).
3) The service is ALREADY inferior. There are 6 daily trips (in each direction) during the week and 4 daily trips during weekends & holidays.
How many buses does it take to transport 500 people?
And when ridership falls to 250 how will we justify any service at all?
Read the posts regarding the route the train takes, and the route the bus would take. I am assuming the description is accurate, but if it is not, please correct it.
"There is no possible way that a bus uses more fuel than a diesel locomotive. Even if I were high on mushrooms, I would dismiss that."
That's not the appropriate comparison.
And when ridership falls to 250 how will we justify any service at all?
Read the posts regarding the route the train takes, and the route the bus would take. I am assuming the description is accurate, but if it is not, please correct it."
If I'm not mistaken, the entire line is being shut for track work. Once it comes back only the mid-day runs (looks like 2 in each direction) will be replaced by busses. The 500 passengers is for the line for the entire day. 500 passengers, divided by 12 (6 trains in each direction) = 42 passengers per train. Even if the 500 passengers are 500 individuals (i.e. 1000 daily rides) the average is only 80-something. Once you get down to the midday trains, chances are they can be covered with a single bus. During the "peak" runs, they'll probably need a few busses with some degree of staggered stops.
Zman -- "There is no possible way that a bus uses more fuel than a diesel locomotive. Even if I were high on mushrooms, I would dismiss that"
Ron -- "That's not the appropriate comparison."
That's exactly the comparison you made in post 560776 Ron! Don't you remember typing "Actually, no. The buses used to replace the trains will cost more to operate, use more fuel, and provide inferior service"
CG
Do we want to improve a railroad or do we want to improve a transportation system?
If it were up to me, I'd electrify the branch and try to run through service down the main line to GCT. There should be enough track capacity to do it.
But I can accept other uses for the money EXCEPT SLICING THE GAS TAX.
Electrification might draw more passengers, but I'm skeptical that it would draw enough to pass a cost-benefit analysis.
There's nothing wrong with reducing the gas tax as long as tolls are reinstated on the Connecticut Turnpike, this time with E-ZPass. (Oh, you mean that's not a part of the plan?)
"There's nothing wrong with reducing the gas tax as long as tolls are reinstated on the Connecticut Turnpike, this time with E-ZPass. (Oh, you mean that's not a part of the plan?)"
I disagree. The gas tax represents an equitable redistribution which helps pay for the consequences of environmental pollution and to encourage conservation (we have troops fighting in ther Middle East to help assure part of our oil supply).
Having said that, you are absolutely correct that reinstating tolls is not part of the equation. There is nothing about Rowland's proposal that is equitable.
But you knew that. You're just being a wise-ass. :0)
Read Dutchrailnut's post.
Question: How much fuel does a stationary diesel use up in a given hour? And, this is a longshot, would anyone out there have a report on the financial feasibility of the Waterbury branch? Does it turn a profit, break even, or does it bleed money? My guess is with the latter.
This is on a smaller scale, but for many in Connecticut (particularly those who don't live along the New Haven Line) when they see money being thrown around to run trains for just 500 passengers (and in this case -- probably just a couple dozen mid-day passengers) they start to question whether any of their transit dollars are being spent responsibly.
CG
Actually, that's not even the point.
It's robbing the poor to subsidize the rich. Better rail service would encourage redevelopment in Bridgport, an old factory and textile town. But Rowland couldn't care less about unemployment in the Bridgport area. Just as long as it costs less to run your Lincoln Town Car or your Porsche 911 Turbo Carrera on your way to the hair salon...
Converting the 2 Waterbury round trips from train to bus is going to somehow damage Bridgeport's economy? I would understand your reaction if they were closing Bridgeport station or curtailing service there, but I really don't see where your comments about Bridgeport's economy being at all reliant upon the Waterbury Branch make any sense.
Not every rail line that was ever build made sense. Some may have made sense at one time, but don't today. Certainly some services don't make sense -- weekend service on the LIRR West Hempstead branch is another service that really can't be justified by its ridership.
One one of the Waterbury mid day runs, the train leaves Bridgeport at 12:30 and arrives in Waterbury at 1:25. They then do whatever it is train crews do at their terminal until 2:16 when they take the train back to Bridgeport, arriving at 3:07. That's 2 and 1/2 hours for probably no more than a couple dozen people.
This is probably a crew of 3 -- engineer, conductor, collector -- given what I believe are MNRR's operating rules. I'd think this crew of 3 would be much more effective if it were deployed on the NH line proper, rather than shuttling a handful of passengers who could just as easily be handled by a bus.
CG
Waterbury trains operate with two crewmen.
I do have to agree with the non-quoted part of your post, about how the Waterbury service is largely irrelevant to Bridgeport's economy given the far greater levels of service it sees on the New Haven line.
You're right there. But what if it were 8 or 10 or 16 round trips?
I suspect that in this case you'd just have a lot more empty trains running up and down the line. Part of the problem is that the train station in Bridgeport isn't where most of the activity in that city seems to be today. Bridgeport is much better today than 10-15 years ago when it was bankrupt and the university was taken over by Rev. Moon and friends -- but it still lags the rest of SW Connecticut -- particularly in the area around the train station.
God, I hope you're right. It was in pretty sad shape when I saw it (around 1994 or so, and then again a couple of years later). Of course, I saw factory buildings and such. I didn't go all around the place.
...yet, the Ronkonkoma to Greenport end of the Mainline could use more service. The West Hempstead branch really doesn't have that great of a service level. I've often speculated on how a direct service from Far Rockaway to West Hempstead might do. There would have to be some shuffling at Valley Stream but it doesn't seem impossible. This would just be using the existing trackage in a different pattern.
I think this type of LIRR train service is going to happen sooner or later. That is, a more imaginative usage of what is already there.
In making that comparison, though, you should consider that for much of its run the WH branch goes through areas which are 100% residential (Westwood, Hempstead Gardens), while the 31/32 runs on a more commercial set of roadways. Also, I think to make that line more effective you'd need extend along Fulton Street into downtown Hempstead (the old line from WH station to Country Life Press misses downtown Hempstead entirely and suffers from the same residential problem as you have in Westwood and Hemp. Gardens).
What does Bridgeport have to do with relevance to the Waterbury line? Yes the Waterbury trains run through/connect with the New Haven line at Bridgeport, but it's the stations on the Waterbury line that loose, not Bridgeport. Bridgeport gets wonderful service via the New Haven line.
And no one along the Waterbury corridor needs to get to Bridgport.
Tell you what, Chris. Let's shut down the Jamaica Line to save money. Lower Manhattan doesn't need it. After all, it gets wonderful service from the Lexington Avenue line, doesn't it?
Yes, but the underlying reasons are controversial, and important.
As I mentioned before, the train isn't really the biggest issue. It's the gas tax.
Rowland could have chosen to cut Waterbury service, or eliminate it, and use the savings to do ADA upgrades to main line stations, improve bus service in Hartford, or what have you.
Instead, he proposes a gas tax cut.
Losing the present service wouldn't hurt Waterbury very much because there's so little ridership. What's really the point, as I see it, is that improved service could help the city.
500 passengers a day on the line -- what percentage do you think are rush hour riders? It sounds like they are planning to cover the line with a single bus.
"There's potential for more ridership, especially during off-peak hours."
Sure it does. And Ron Dayne has the potential to be an effective NFL running back.
It's Governor Rowland telling Bridgeport to go jump off a cliff. Bridgport is struggling to turn around its economy. It should have more rail service, not less, and adding rail service would encourage commercial redevelopment.
Rowland is subsidizing rich SUV and luxury car drivers by screwing the poor and working people.
Rush hour ridership might be better if there were more and faster trains. Right now, there's a single morning train, leaving Waterbury about 6:30 and getting into Grand Central around 9:00 - too late for many people. Evenings, the one train leaves GCT at 6:36 IIRC and arrives in Waterbury just after 9:00. So it's a long, long day for a commuter. I don't have any easier answers in terms of speeding up service, after all Waterbury's almost 100 miles from GCT, but something should be done.
CG
Maybe with one more trainset on the route, service could be increased enough to be attractive to commuters heading to Fairfield County destinations. Sorta sounds like my lament for the LIRR Greenport line.
I don't mean to sound snobbish or anything, and I acknowledge that appearances can be deceiving, but it's been my impression that most Waterbury line riders, especially on mid-day trains, are from the half of the socioeconomic spectrum that makes the top half possible ... no, it's more likely that they're from the 10% of the socioeconomic spectrum that makes the upper 90% possible. Suffice to say that they're not the sort of people who have much political influence or to whom Rowland is trying to cater.
Bingo. A gas tax cut is popular with people who drive vehicles that get 10 mpg and could care less about air pollution or mass transit of any kind, and these are the people who contribute to his re-election campaign and hobknob at political get-togethers.
Does Rowland offer overnight stays in the Executive Mansion if your political contribution is big enough?
In this case, the rail lines are built, in place, administered. Yes, rolling stock might be a limitation, but are we REALLY going to go down the road of abandoning MORE branch lines, for the sake of a quick gas-tax break? Good grief!!!
This is Rowland's play for higher voter turnout in rich suburbs where the Humvee is king and commuter rail is a four-letter cuss word.
Do such towns exist in Connecticut? Don't Greenwich and Darien (two of the state's wealthiest municipalities -- if not the wealthiest) both have multiply high volume stations on the New Haven Line?
Exactly. Connecticut's wealthier towns in Fairfield County basically developed as commuter towns and to this day are home to many rail commuters. The state's other well-to-do communities, the wealthier Hartford suburbs, don't have commuter rail service, but on the other hand aren't likely to be hotbeds of anti-rail sentiment, it's mainly a non-issue for them.
As for Waterbury, and most of the other communities along the threatened Waterbury line, they scarcely fit the description of "rich suburbs where the Humvee is king."
You missed the point. Cutting the gas tax 5 cents is not a non-issue - they like that, and they'll happily sink commuter rail to get it. The tax is the real issue for them, not the train.
OTOH, the train IS the issue for Bridgeport.
Eliminating train service on the Waterbury line isn't going to allow a five-cent cut in the gasoline tax. Not even close.
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Hmm, I wonder if this will lead to "War Railing". :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Californians
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#BNSF
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Hudson
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Yea government! Finally providing some funding to improve the rail network.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Bullfrog
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Grupo TMM board quits KCS deal
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Grupo
KCS, TMM enter Tex-Mex snarl
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#KCS
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What idiots. Too bad the train didn't have a little "brake burp" and turn some of these hippie loosers into an all natural, organic nutrition paste.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Environmentalists
Since that is basically stating that you wished that the train would accidentally slay the protesters, I regard that as unfriendly towards the railroad, never mind your fellow human, no matter the circumstances. Also, that is extremely callous on your part—you had better hope that your curse does not rebound upon yourself. Please take that rather evil sentiment back.
As it stands, the protesters in question were not in enmity with the actual train nor rail operations, but the contents being hauled by the train, namely genetically-altered grain. They would have protested against trucks if that was the mode used to haul the mutant grain shipments.
No, their actions if taken to the conclusion that they desire will cause the starvation of thousands if not millions of people around the globe.
I also believe in the adversarial system. Protesters should be free to block whatever they wish. Those blocked should be free to use whatever means possible to clear the blockage. If you are going to block a rail line with your body you should be prepared to be run over. If you are not, stop being a phoney and find another way to protest. Moreover, transportation companies should show a bit more devotion to getting their customers shipments through on time. I'm sick of all this pussy footing around we see today. All it does it waste time and resources.
Yes. In the old days, people risked their lives for what they believed in. Today they expect the trains or trucks to just stop and sit there until the protesters decide to leave. Enough pussy footing.
In general, I agree with you, though the companies producing the grain have, on occasion, committed discrete acts of stupidity which deserve censure (recall the Starlink cor buiness).
No, their actions if taken to the conclusion that they desire will cause the starvation of thousands if not millions of people around the globe
Ah, so only the starving people should get the mutant grain while the blessèd people get the natural-gene grain. Interesting line of thinking—to say the very least and the most benign.
I also believe in the adversarial system. Protesters should be free to block whatever they wish. Those blocked should be free to use whatever means possible to clear the blockage
Ah, so shedding blood is justifiable in this regard. It is this “adversarial” means that has led to the litany of laws that we live with today, don’t forget. You would make a very good Josef Djughashvili.
If you are going to block a rail line with your body you should be prepared to be run over. If you are not, stop being a phoney and find another way to protest
I suppose you do not wish the USA to be the USA any more. Quite a bloodthirsty person you are. Not only a good Djughashvili, but also most definitely management type. How many corpses will it take before you are satisfied, may I ask…? I daresay that your statements are beyond irrational.
Moreover, transportation companies should show a bit more devotion to getting their customers shipments through on time
This is rail we are talking about. Trucking companies do it the way you suggest, all with violation of the law as a necessity, sometimes with dire and deadly results when they fail. Blame Washington DC on that one, whose transportation policies have been grossly skewed against rail since 1950.
I'm sick of all this pussy footing around we see today. All it does it waste time and resources
What you describe as “pussyfooting” is actually called being civil and it took the USA a long time to even get this far. You would not like the reverse, since it entails a lot of abuse and bloodshed. And those on the bottom would invariably be on the receiving end…
There is nothing wrong with genetically altered grain. People (and their predecessors) have been eating genetic altered grain for millions of years -- the decay of radioisotopes naturally occuring in nature (such as Carbon-13) have long been producing slow neutrons, and DNA has long been altered accidentally by radioactive emissions and by genetic errors resulting from imperfect reproduction process. There is nothing wrong with using technology to speed up that process.
You sound like one of those organic hippies and you sound like you have little knowledge of what genetic engineering really means.
Ah, so shedding blood is justifiable in this regard. It is this “adversarial” means that has led to the litany of laws that we live with today, don’t forget. You would make a very good Josef Djughashvili.
Quoting obscure personalities does not make you sound knowledgeable in this day and age. It just takes a few moments for any person reading this post to google the personality and figure out what you are talking about. Some of us won't bother, therefore you have not only failed to communicate your point you have also proved yourself to be one of those Harvard-type literary snobs. You relate to engineers poorly and you believe that your actions command respect. In the real world, they command spit.
While I generally do not advocate adversarial relationships, there is some sense in what Mike said. All effort should be made to remove these people without hurting them or yourself, but at some point these people will protest with guns and at that point I'd say, run 'em over.
I agree with Mike that in general those organic types are just pussyfooting and they should find a more civil way (e.g. writing to their Washington representative) to protest if they do not expect to be run over. The attitude that anyone who is unhappy could block anything that is happening for 'the greatest good of the greatest people' is what is dragging down this economy, and will ultimately lead to United States's demise. While I believe in getting stakeholders involved and compensating the losers, once the losers are compensated, they should be restrained from getting in the way of operations.
Moreover, transportation companies should show a bit more devotion to getting their customers shipments through on time
I don't know about that. On-time performance doesn't make money these days, and it's only a grain train. I would be much more worried if there is an intermodal following right behind it -- those don't make money either, but at least those contribute much more to the economy.
Trucking companies do it the way you suggest, all with violation of the law as a necessity... Washington DC on that one, whose transportation policies have been grossly skewed against rail since 1950.
Failure to regulate trucking company has very little to do with any active bias by Washington against the railroad industry. Trucking firms grew up against a totally different regulatory background, and inspecting truck shipments is also a lot more difficult than inspecting rail shipments.
What you describe as “pussyfooting” is actually called being civil... And those on the bottom would invariably be on the receiving end.
I disagree. The protesters, in this case, was pussyfooting. If civil standards were removed, those on the bottom would not be ones that suffer the most. The people who have the most to lose are middle-class suburbanites that have forgotten how to deal with real people without the constrains of rules and laws of the society. You will be surprised at how apt the lower-income classes at fighting for their survival in a society absent the rules (such as zoning requirements) that the middle-class Americans have been accustomed to and have used for many many years to supress the lower-income.
AEM7
DDT ... 'nuff said. Sold as pure stuff. Same for PCB's ... safe for your baby. How do we KNOW the repercussions of adding poisons from one plant to one we eat just to make the little creepy crawlers go chew on something else? THAT's what they're designing here ... and those who know me KNOW I ain't no bleeding heart technophobe. We've already screwed up our genes with the wonder toys of the 50's and 60's, only now becoming aware of the price. But hey, I'm past 50, ain't long for this world ... it's *YOUR* problem whatever the outcome, good bad or indifferent ...
There is nothing wrong with genetically altered grain
How do you know? Where is your evidence? Your statements supposedly supporting your assumed facts have no basis in fact whatsoever. Enough with blanket statements mired in ignorance—just admit that you have no idea as to what you are talking about instead.
You sound like one of those organic hippies
And you sound like an ignorant boor who thinks that the only way to win an argument is to attempt to label someone. How right-wing of you. What next, yellow six-pointed stars for people who “sound” Jewish on here? Cut that nonsense out and engage in proper debate instead.
Quoting obscure personalities does not make you sound knowledgeable in this day and age
Obscure personalities—Google is easily at hand, so this true name for someone who is absolutely not obscure can easily be looked up. Intelligent people would not be averse to doing that—however, with your nonsensical implication of “Some of us won't bother” you have underestimated the majority of posters on here and insulted them at the same time.
…you have also proved yourself to be one of those Harvard-type literary snobs. You relate to engineers poorly and you believe that your actions command respect. In the real world, they command spit
Ah, assumptions, labeling and badly-veiled insults. The classic signs of a failed argument.
While I generally do not advocate adversarial relationships, there is some sense in what Mike said
Hypocrisy and two-facedness? No, you cannot both oppose and countenance adversity—you are either for or against. I suggest you take your duplicity and shove it in the wastebasket before someone outside of cyberspace takes you to task over it.
Failure to regulate trucking company has very little to do with any active bias by Washington against the railroad industry
Very little? You point out Washington’s clear bias and you describe one of the chief symptoms as having “very little to do” with it. Did you take your meds today??
The protesters, in this case, was pussyfooting
The protesters WAS. Nice grammar there, Webster. Now I see the level of intellect I am up against. Say hello to the killfile, Mr. Toaster.
How do you know? Where is your evidence? Your statements supposedly supporting your assumed facts have no basis in fact whatsoever. Enough with blanket statements mired in ignorance—just admit that you have no idea as to what you are talking about instead."
You're the one who flailed with the accusations. There is no evidence of harm to anyone from consumption of genetically-altered grain. When you show that you've done your reading and homework, some of us will treat particular posts you write (my comment is limited to thisparticular post right now, not to you generally) with more respect. What you wrote was laughable.
Yet.
What you wrote was laughable
And you have reverted to insulting people’s comments as opposed to arguing correctly. Reserve the nonsense next time.
I'm going to use your logic for aonther product: Drinking water has yet to kill anyone, so I guess drinking water is harmful since it could kill someone, but it hasn't yet.
Actually, I would be more concerned about the traincrew. I know Jersey Mike personally and his family members do not parttake in illegal trespassing or other such Darwin-bait-like activities.
Even if the victim is organic and smelly, as an operator I still do not like to run over people. Hell, I don't even like running over animals.
AEM7
I have a solution. When the protesters stop the train, the crew should get out, and the train should be put in remote control mode, using the emerging remote control technologies now used in yards. Sort of like a firing squad execution, 10 engineers should each be given a remote control, and all at the same time, they are to move the throttle to run 8. The catch is that only one of the 10 remote controls actually activated the throttle, but no one will know who did it. Would this be humane enough? In any event, hopefully, after the throttle was activated, the protesters would move aside.
Sheesh. Ya crazy, boy, but I like the cut of your jib.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Geez, it's not just the Hispanics that don't get American-style sarcasm. I thought the Irish are supposed to understand humour. AEM7
1) Your current eating habits are more harmful than eating modified grain
2) That posting jibberish about modified grain will lead to the starvation of people in Africa (but you never know; maybe you should be worried about being called to a tribunal 20 years from now. Think of your family.
And the genetically altered food is much more likely to feed the toddlers than to cause cancer. The evidence is already very strong for that.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030908/170/57kjx.html&e=18
So what do they do? They go the Luddite way - "oh gee, your crop hasn't been inspected for "safety" etc. or they pander to fear and ignorance with this Franken food nonsense. The Japanese are famous for using the same tactics on imported American automobiles.
Ths is not to say that there or no risks, and not to say that the companies pursuing research haven't done some stupid things.
I think it is true to say that U.S. style farming would only work in locations where there is ample land. Transgenic or not, European farming is the way it is because it has been optimized for a different set of constraints. Provided that transgenic fude is labelled as such, they may be able to segment the market, and then the consumers would vote with their dollars.
This has kind of happened with computer equipment. Asian manufacturers have been making cheap computer stuff for years, but these days I still ask for an AMD processor that is fabbed in Texas. As far as CPU is concerned, I am an organic type and I turn down mutant transgenic CPUs like the IDT Winchip.
AEM7
I agree to a point. Culture and politics have a role too. Europe has less arable land, but they really could be working it better. The fact remains though, that we can sell more of it cheaper, and the Europeans could adapt instead of fighting all the time.
"Provided that transgenic fude is labelled as such, they may be able to segment the market, and then the consumers would vote with their dollars."
OK. I don't think, though, that the French government (to name one example) is interested in any kind of fair trade.
"This has kind of happened with computer equipment. Asian manufacturers have been making cheap computer stuff for years, but these days I still ask for an AMD processor that is fabbed in Texas. As far as CPU is concerned, I am an organic type and I turn down mutant transgenic CPUs like the IDT Winchip."
I hear you. Unfortunately, I know that when I do that, there's a bit of prejudice built in. After all, how do I, not being a hardware engineer, know that the CPU from Shanghai is really inferior to the US model? Maybe it's better. And a lot of computer magazine articles read like ads.
I have a four year old HP Pavilion Pentium III/900 MhZ CPU. Never had a reason to complain.
Actually, there are project evaluation methodologies for that. We can say that the willingness-to-pay to avoid a starving toddler is this much (usually equal to the market prices for the fude), and then we can assign a value to the probability of causing its death by feeding it, multiply that by the willingness-to-pay to prevent its death (usually equal to some national standard for willingness-to-invest to avoid industrial accidents), and multiplied by some discount rate. That way you can really compare the alternatives "feeding", "not feeding", and "feeding with all organic natural fude".
Now that I think about it, if all organic natural fude is available, that may well be the lowest cost alternative (in the long run), especially if the use of genetic modification does not drastically alter the cost of production of fude. However, if genetic modification reduces the cost of fude by only 25%, the risk of cancer/other health issues may well be lower than the cost of paying for fude up-front. The key parameters are: (1) the probability of increased health issues (2) the cost savings associated with using genetic modification.
The majority of organic fnarking smellyheads have no clue about any of this; they are just stupid people with religious or other convinctions that seemingly prevent them from reasoning rationally.
AEM7
I used to think it is just the Americans that are dumb enough to see only black and white in an argument. Who was it that said "only a mind too narrow cannot contain two apparently contradictory thoughts"?
Hypocrisy and two-facedness are my virtues. I am (was) an Englishman.
While I am on the subject of politics, don't any of you think recent public debates in the USA has been far too polarized? You're either pro-life or pro-choice, either pro-peace or pro-war... what about the intermediate options?
AEM7
What about Just-In-Time delivery? With large purveyors reducing inventories, prompt delivery becomes very important. Do these delivery contracts not contain penalties for tardiness?
I don't know about grain trains, but containerized freight would be a relevant example.
The cost associated with JIT delivery is usually more than the cost of holding inventories, on a fully-allocated basis. The problem with JIT deliveries is that it requires a low variability in the time it takes to deliver. Low variability is very expensive, because usually you end up with having to use dedicated transportation facilities... the whole JIT revolution only worked in the industrial part of the U.S. because of surplus rail and highway capacity in that part of the country. JIT to a manufacturing plant in downtown NY would only work if the trucks are able to travel off-peak.
Essentially, JIT relies on the fact that someone else is paying for the transportation capacity. Inventorying is usually cheaper if you consider the societal optimal -- not excessive inventorying, but inventorying with say two days' supply to cover against such events as weather variations and non-recurring congestion, vehicle failures, etc. It depends on the value of the commodity concerned though.
AEM7
"JIT to a manufacturing plant in downtown NY would only work if the trucks are able to travel off-peak. "
True. Freight owns the night everyhere, now, though. US air traffic control towers used to get a breather from 1AM to about 5 or 6 in the morning. No more. When American, Delta and JetBlue disappear from radarscopes, Fedex, UPS, Postal Service, Airborne and Bancjet (carries checks to clearinghouses for processing) take their place. It's a nonstop party.
Actually, JetBlue has a number of "red-eye" flights operating in the overnight hours. The one airline that doesn't is Southwest, which does not operate any flights anywhere in the country during the middle of the night.
Quoting obscure personalities does not make you sound knowledgeable in this day and age.
Sadly to say, Josef Djughashvili was not an obscure personality. I thought they taught history more thoroughly in the UK than in the US, but I guess standards have declined there too.
Your comment is certainly true for high school (at least in upper echelon schools).
Djughashvili is the alias of Josef Stalin. His grandson was Yevgeny Djughashvili.
Ah, so only the starving people should get the mutant grain while the blessèd people get the natural-gene grain. Interesting line of thinking—to say the very least and the most benign."
I think everybody should have access to it. If you have the money, you can respond to marketing efforts from various farmers any way you like. Mutant grain is a term implying there's something with it, which is hogwash. But if you don't want to consume it, fine. Free country.
Mutant grain is a term implying there's something with it, which is hogwash
Still arguing the same way, right? If you have no evidence, resort to epithets. Keep it up—you will continue to look boorish.
Incidentally, “mutant grain” is the correct term. No typical implication as to whether or not something is “with it” (what do you mean by that?) other than its altered genetic structure. As for hogwash? It may be in pig feed already.
*********************************************************************
This was a really cool little article with lots of neat pics.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09022003.shtml#Nature
My Favorite Photo
My 2nd Favorite
A Nice Reflection off the Window of an R-143 (if you look hard enough you see a train there too)
First an M Train, Now a J Train R-42MK gives a nice reflection!
A J R-42 train leaving Myrtle Avenue Westbound
An R-143 Poses
An M train leaving Fresh Pond Road going South
An R-142 leaving Bedford Park Boulevard
A Picture of R-32 3545 at East 179 Street Assigned as an F Train
Some of my favorites:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album44/IMG_4944
Seneca Av is on an island platform.
I just knew it was somewhere near Knickerbocker and Central because of the space in between the two tracks (similar to what exists on portions of the BMT Broadway elevated for the J line).
Interssting to see the short distances between two signals on the
Williamsburg Bridge. (I'm thinking of the accident)
PS: I hope it's ok, that i save these pics on my disk as
additional info to the accident PDF i have.
Opp, did I say somthing wrong about Fred's subway line?
What does the plate with the number "864" mean?
A distance to a zero point?
Thanks for posting. Please keep up the good work !
In fact, since the stations are already manned, the signals are already operated, and the cars and ROW are already maintained, the only marginal cost would be the T/Os and Conductors which, as we know, account for a small share of overall costs. So a Coney Island boom would be a financial boon for the subway system.
It would have allowed the F through access to 6th Avenue in the event of hazards, construction and emergencies on the Church - Smith - York - Rutgers portion of the line. The F could have used the shuttle tracks, and then the 4th Avenue subway and north side of the Manny B to continue its route up 6th Avenue.
That would have possibly facilitated the lower level reconstruction at Bergen St. The shuttle trackage did not have to provide permanent through service, as specified in the original e-mail.
It also would have provided the West End and, especially the Sea Beach line with an alternative route to Coney Island, in the event of construction or emergency.
I am not advocating reconstruction of the shuttle, I'm only lamenting the lack of flexibility caused by its demise.
Ironically, in subsequent years there was a need for flexibilty but in the opposite direction. So if the tracks were configured to route West End trains via the Rutgers Tunnel without reversing, then I would have agreed with you.
It's sort of like the way you could get a transfer at Bway-Nassau good on any bus at High St. that was descended from a trolley line that went over the Brooklyn Bridge 50 years before: they were waiting for those last two users of the Park Row trolley to move to a nursing home in New Jersey. :-) When they moved, the transfer disappeared.
A complex sign with details about that used to be over the stairs of Fulton & William St. entrance to the IND/IRT until the late 1980s and I had no idea what it was talking about!!
Did this obscure transfer last that long, to 1989??
I personally remember at least one trip (back when I was a teenager with too much free time) from Bway Nassau to High Street, then the Smith St. (B75) bus to Bartel Pritchard Sq. then the COney Island Avenue (B68) bus to my house. Also, sometimes the Vanderbilt Avenue(B69) to the same Bartel Pritchard Sq. (15 St. and PPW) and the B68 home.
Finally, the only ticket transfers that I ever knew about are the Franklin Shuttle -> A and A -> FS, the Flushing->6th Avenue and 6th Avenue->Flushing (while they build the connecting tunnel at 42 St), the Bway-Nassau to the bus at High St. & Myrtle Avenue EL at Jay St, and Myrtle Avenue El to IND at Jay St. (again for a connection ONLY to Bway-Nassau, complete with facial recognition cameras to be sure you got off there :-).
Thanks here as well. This has to move to number one on the list of obscure things I know about the transit system. Heck, sounds like the transfer might still have been in effect for several years after I moved down to Brooklyn from the Bronx.
What makes it intersting, of course, is that it is an echo of a former transit network that no longer exists, kind of like the BX55 bus.
Anyway, the Brooklyn Bridge replacement transfers had to be the weirdest things ever. As a kid, I kept picturing a couple of ancient people with walkers or canes, straw hats and flower print dresses, still taking the bus to High St, taking the train only to Bway-Nassau, and feeling like it was the El to Park Row all over again. Glad to give the info. I guess I am dating myself, but I never realized how obscure it was. Someday I'll be the one acting like the Culver Shuttle still exists taking the Church Avenue bus along 39 St wearing my tie-dye shirt and bell-bottom pants. :-)
Yes.
And here it is:
CulverShuttle.com
And HERE
Like when the Jamaica Ave. El was torn down and the TA ran a bus along the Ave that stopped only at the former El stations. I always admired the continuity of former train service that bus offered. And there had been an extra effort to accomodate those who were seriously used to the train, using extra large signs for the stops.
Like when the Jamaica Ave. El was torn down and the TA ran a bus along the Ave that stopped only at the former El stations. I always admired the continuity of former train service that bus offered. And there had been an extra effort to accomodate those who were seriously used to the train, using extra large signs for the stops.
If i had constructed the connection Church-Ditmas it would be two tracks
connecting at Church to the express tracks with switches to the local
and a at Ditmas a track layout like Myrtle/Bway.
The Local service would be going to Nassau St and a
The Smith Local would terminate at Church
The Smith Express would be the Culver Express 16/5 and use the third track south of Ditmas peak direction (direction changing like < 7 >)
Nah, it used the lower level (maybe middle track there?).
For a time the early 1950s, prior to the through routing of the IND in 1954, the northbound Culver line track did have a connection through the ramp and portal to the IND Church Ave. station.
-- Ed Sachs
the short route was old and underused and there was nearby capacity to cover it.
The original planned shuttle platform is and always will be the passageway between the Shuttle and the Lex.
-Robert King
I have only two words in response: Christ Almighty
I was five blocks away. I had nightmares for a while, and put on 30 pounds (since lost). So there does seem to be an effect of proximity.
As for worrying about additional terrorism, I believe that (rationally) there is now a small chance that either myself or my wife will die in a terrorist attack, a risk that did not exist before (or we did not know it did), one we have made modest preparations for.
There is a significantly higher risk that someone we care about will die in an additional terrorist attack, and that the higher threat of terrorism will affect the city's relative economic strength and thus its tax base and our quality of life. It is possible that this will affect, in particular, the subway.
And there it is almost a certainly that SOMEONE will die in a terrorist attack.
Whenever we think about these things, it is depressing -- not fear inducing, but depressing. We have decided to stick it out in our city, because leaving the life we have chose would be an even greater loss. We aren't depressed all the time because we don't think of it often. Reminders do not add to our quality of life.
Look at it this way. There have been no terror attacks in the United States since 9/11. There haven't even been very many elsewhere in the world. For once, the United States is making a concerted effort to root out and destroy terrorist groups. Whatever the risk that may exist, it's probably very, very small. Not enough to worry about.
How many people are shot in gang-related disputes in the US? Isn't that a form of terrorism? We are not all equally at risk of that, but no one is absolutely immune.
I didn't worry after 1993. The scale of September 11th was different. It makes people fear something of a similar scale, or worse,which is clearly what the terrorists would like to achieve (but hopefully will not be allowed to).
(Why not treat it like a freeway -- a place with unpredictable, real, but finite dangers?)
Under the circumstances, I think what may be required is a few actual terrorist attacks with less damage -- suicide belts, car bombs and the like -- over a long period of time. Hopefully, not enough to doom the city.
One must remember that for those who didn't live or work in places like East New York, the real but finite danger is probably greater than in the dark days of the 1990s. There were three murders and one rape in Windsor Terrace in the time I've been there. The rape took place this summer.
Fred: A NYC fireman who lost a close friend, a policeman, said it best.
9-11 happened because 19 members of Al-Queda were will to give up their lives for what they believed in; i.e cowardly murder of innocent people, these guys would never have the guts to face the US Army.
However over 400 members of the fire and police agencies of New York where willing to give their lives for what they belived in.
With odds like that we can't lose.
Larry, RedbirdR33
None of the rescuers knew that they'd be sacrificing their lives. They died because the towers fell, which no one on the face of the Earth ever thought would happen. Had the towers remained standing, there would have been few if any deaths among the rescuers.
Peter: Every time a fireman responds to a fire he puts his life on the line. All fires are dangerous and many are deadly.
The moment those towers were struck the plaza below them became a killing ground. Steel, concrete and other debris rained down onto the plaza killing and injuring many of those trying to get inside to provide help. Father Micheal Judd, a chaplain was killed outside of Tower 1 when he was struck by debris falling from that tower even before it collapsed. He was killed while administring the Last Rites to another victim. Even if the towers had not collapsed it would have still caused the deaths of many both among the civilians and the uniformed services not to mention those on the aircraft.
Larry, RedbirdR33
You're quite right that the rescuers' task at the WTC would have been dangerous under any circumstances, it's just that it would not have turned into a suicide mission, as it did, had the towers remained standing. Most of the people trapped in the towers probably would have been doomed no matter what.
The one thing 9/11 was not is a Tragedy. That word makes a mockery of the unspeakable crime that those hate filled and murderous assassins carried out against our City and our Country.
The first attack on the World Trade Center was no small thing, it was a Diesel-Fertilizer bomb of between 1200 and 1500lbs, a truely massive size for such an unstable explosive, in addition they had 3 - 126lb containers of hydrogen gas to assist the blast. The bomb basically cored the building, destroying 5 levels of the building. However, it was just masked better, hidden deep under the building, and only manfesting itself in some smoke at street level. This is quite unlike the very exposed and very well recorded. We most likely will not soon forget the image, whether seen on a TV or in real life, of the second plane wildly tilting as it flew 'behind' the towers, only to not reappear out the other side. There is most likely the biggest difference between the 1993 attack and the 2001 attack, even excepting the images of the towers collapsing in 2001, the attacks were much more brazen in 2001. It wasn't just two cowards leaving a van full of explosives in the basement, it was three fanatics per plane actually killing themselves along with many, many other people, right in front of us, either in person, in print, or on TV. That kind of thing does not just go away, we'll most likely remember that longer we remember the newsreel images of the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Bill "Newkirk"
In terms of absolute numbers, there is a much much higher risk that someone we care about will die in a traffic accident. What is the annual total, 40K traffic accident-related deaths? Heck, I'd bet more people die of bee sting allergic reactions than any terrorism incidents. So it's probably a good thing to keep things in perspective.
(In terms of absolute numbers, there is a much much higher risk that someone we care about will die in a traffic accident.)
Nationally, yes. In Brooklyn, no. Living in Brooklyn in a neighborhood full of firemen, and working in Lower Manhattan, no.
One could make the case that adding the risk of a traffic accident to the risk of terrorism, we are no worse off than the national average. But back before the WTC I used to like the idea that I was ahead of the game.
You still are.
Yeah, but I'd be further ahead if I were riding a bus in Kansas City. Well, safety-wise anyway.
It is amazing how the rest of the country was traumatized by the events, even though it's clear that New York (and DC) were, and are, the targets. People in Tulsa, OK are afraid they may be next!
Perhaps its a result of the television coverage, or the fact that people from anywhere could have been on the airplanes, or that people from so many places have relatives and friends working in Manhattan. Or the fact that they actually hit the Pentagon. What a shock that was, occurring at it did seconds after people in my office starting asking "where is the military and why aren't they protecting us?"
We had two people in the office whose elderly parents were in Manhattan, and a number of structural engineers. It was much easier for us when we could organize getting someone's brother, an actor, to get them on a Path train and out of New Jersey. One of the engineers broke down in tears that afternoon visualizing the series of failures in the collapse. It's not "I could be next" but "What can I do?" that people feel in this situation. They were asking, "CAN the military protect us?" That's why my next-door neighbor, a fireman, jumped in his car and drove east, not knowing if he was needed or not.
I went through several phases after 9/11. At first, I wondered if I was really dead and was too stubborn to admit it (no joke!). Then I wondered if God spared me because I will contribute something important to humanity. After that egocentric phase passed, I wondered if there even was a God if I was spared only by random chance. I have achieved some sort of inner peace by the belief that God was not guiding those planes, but the Devil was (or whatever depiction of evil a religion may use). He was as helpess to save anyone as the FDNY was.
Statistics show that the vast majority of people who were below the impact levels on each tower made it out okay. It's been suggested that most of the people who worked on lower floors who died were trapped in elevators. As far as exiting the towers is concerned, most accounts say that the police were pretty good at getting people out of the danger zone, so few non-rescuers died on the ground when the towers came down. Despite my usual scorn for the NYPD and cops in general, I have to admit they did that one right.
All in all, you almost certainly would have been okay had the attack occurred later. It probably would have been more frightening, however.
I went through several phases after 9/11. At first, I wondered if I was really dead and was too stubborn to admit it (no joke!). Then I wondered if God spared me because I will contribute something important to humanity. After that egocentric phase passed, I wondered if there even was a God if I was spared only by random chance. I have achieved some sort of inner peace by the belief that God was not guiding those planes, but the Devil was (or whatever depiction of evil a religion may use). He was as helpess to save anyone as the FDNY was.
That sounds about as good a way to look at it as anything I've heard.
My office was located right behind the "interzonal" elevator banks in the south tower (the kind that allowed you to go from the 44th floor skylobby to the 78th floor skylobby), accessable only by a long, narrow corridor between the 2 banks. Had the 1st plane hit my building in the same way it hit the north tower, jet fuel could have ignited a fire, cutting off my only avenue of escape. Stories abound about fires on many lower floors, near the elevator banks, including the lobby of the north tower. Even if it hadn't, my escape would have been much more of an ordeal. I was blessed with an easy walk down 44 flights of stairs, and I was already in the concourse when my building was hit.
More importantly, EVERYONE had that same feeling I did, that made me need to track all the names, get into Excel, look at structural drawings -- "why did so-and-so not get out?" And not just because I'm an architect. It wasn't God, or fate, or your responsibility, or something having called you to be "there" and not "there." You just have the human tendency to go back over it and back over it. It's just really hard to deal with.
People I know who live away from NYC are actually more afraid than those who are here. It hasn't happened to them yet, but they fear it might.
Lots of people moving here. It certainly has been a bizzare recession. In the past, the real estate market swung hard, with construction leading the boom and bust. Today, despite the job losses, construction employment has remained high, and housing prices have remained (it seems to me) unsupportably high. The big problem is there aren't enough tax dollars for services, and housing units, for everyone that wants to live here. What are they doing for a living anyway?
Your guess sounds about right. Stories about survivors struggling with psychological trauma make interesting reading in the Times and elsewhere. Stories about people who just carried on with their daily routines make less interesting reading. As a result, we hear far more about the traumatized people and their numbers, not surprisingly, get inflated in the process. I'll bet that a significant percentage of the people who evacuated from the WTC itself were back at work, in temporary locations, within a week or so. We just don't hear about them.
We all went back to work Downtown within a week, but we weren't feeling happy about it. We had two construction field offices right in the WTC. The TA construction managers were asked if counselors should come to their temporary locations. One said he'd just take his staff out to a bar a couple of times instead (on his own dime, needless to say).
If it wasn't politically incorrect for the government to pay for a couple of evenings of food and drink, it could have saved itself a lot of money on counseling.
Not to mention that a few drinks are probably much more effective than listening to some dimwitted "counselor's" psychobabble.
On a similar (and on-topic) note, Downtown bar owners are claiming that the Port Authority's policies are costing them business. Construction workers on the PATH station rebuilding job are strictly forbidden from partaking in liquid refreshments during their lunch hour. A sensible policy, I'd say, but not so good for local watering holes.
Always remember that there is an even higher risk that someone you care about will die in a sudden unexpected violent event such as a homicide, suicide, or accident.
A friend of a friend lost her husband and son to a reckless NYC driver. She is suffering just as much as the relatives of terror victims.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Me too. The World Trade Center was my favorite part of NYC. It had everything, a mall, offices, tourist attraction,and 2 big beautiful modern skyscrapers that were larger than life.
I still cant believe the towers collapsed, I hear how they theorize how the buildings collapsed, but I still cant seem to comprehend it happening. And it was so young, not even 35 years old, way too young, just like many of its occupants, to die. Way too young.
The World Trade Center was a city within a city, and now that its gone, a major part of downtown sits empty. To me its just a reminder of all the lives lost on that horrific day.
I wish they would have just rebuilt the WTC complex as it was. I dont want to see a slurry wall. I dont want to see anything else but the two 110 story Twin towers and the mall, and Borders, back again. I wont accept anything else.
As Yvonne Elliman would say "If I cant Have you, I dont want nobody else". I feel the same way about the WTC. The only design I liked was the original design.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Tell me, do you remember an other person in history, very famous person, say...........1940's Germany that shared your idea? Very well known.
The following towns also exist:
3) Palestine, Cleburne, AL
4) Palestine, Randolph, AR
5) Palestine, St Francis, AR
6) Palestine, Fairfield, CT
7) Palestine, Crawford, IL
8) Palestine, Franklin, IN
9) Palestine, Kosciusko, IN
10) Palestine, Menominee, MI
11) Palestine, Darke, OH
This compares to one sole Israel (Israel, Preston, WV).
Jerusalem, Bali, & Monrovia of course. But Gaza City? I have no sympathy for the people of Gaza City. (except maybe the children) Whatever happens to the people of the Gaza is totally brought on themselves by their own actions!!
Unleash Sharon!!!
So you're one of those who have found new solace in religion? ;^)
Smoke'em depends if ya gott'm, soldier! :)
And where *IS* Osama, anyway? Whoop! Prohibited thought ... Where *is* Saddam? Oh man, gotta logout and go turn myself in ... next thing ya know, gonna go buy a camera and you know what THAT leads to, Komrade. :)
Yes, I'd like to see the scar healed as well. But the politics seems to be with those who want a hole in the ground, an open sore.
Too late, Selkirk's snagged all the stock already
WOODSIDE LIRR, 7
74th/Broadway/Roosevelt 7, E,F,G,R,V
Queensboro Plaza/Center 7, E,F,G,N,R,V,W
Astoria Blvd N.W
Willets Point/Shea Stadium LIRR,7
Or your own Selections?
But it won't happen. The whole emphasis is on JFK now. Instead of increasing landside access to LGA, which is too crowded already, they want to speed landside access to JFK, which has capacity on the air side.
maybe Astoria Blvd/Hoyt Av
Route: brach begins at Van Wyck/Archer following Van Wyck
then at Flushing Meadow to the 7 (or LIRR) station.
From there over the Grand Central Parkway to LGA and if demanded to
the Astoria line
Service:
(Astoria-)LGA-JFK
(Astoria-)LGA-Jamaica
Jamaica-JFK
BC-JFK
Can the A and the N run on the same track and share the same platform?
207St-168St-(CPW Express)-7Av-(6 Av Express)-Grand St-(bridge)-DeKalb-
(4 Av Express)-59St-CI ???
:-) LOL
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I don't think so. One thing about mystical chix is that they usually aren't very large on top, so to speak.* The chik in the picture, in contrast, seems to be pretty well-equipped, so she's not likely to be mystical, unless there's been some silicone enhancement.
* = in case you wonder why I'm not too enamored with mystical chix, you now know much of the reason.
Any more discussion on this should be limited to email, as this would potentially be less related to transit. ;)
Here's the sign that
was in a recent thread here.... it's doing well, brah!!
Peace,
ANDEE
The original Pennylvania Station served the riding public for only 53 years when it was built to last a hundred years or better. What a shame !
Bill "Newkirk"
"We used to enter the city like gods. Now, we come in like rats."
Perhaps folks will understand now why I get so riled up when folks here dismiss or otherwise taunt my former TWU brothers and sisters. And I must COMMEND Ray for "making it real" even if it's highly disturbing. Back when I was a conductor, I lost a good partner when a 12-9 happened in his face. This sadly brings it all back.
And to THINK ... some MORONS here had the GALL to say it was HER FAULT. Even MORE disturbing. :(
I hope the article touches some minds and souls here ...
But the "it was HER fault" ... BULLSHIRT! Those gates and infrastructure were built for R10's and Arnines ... it's a WHOLE different reality on the step plates between cars where the WORST you have to stick your neck out is MAYBE 6 inches. WHOLE 'nuther world with that stupid drop-sash. Sorry, I did this ... I got in my CONDUCTOR hatred of the 32's and all that followed having WAY too many close calls with that signal head at the northbound end of 34/6 ... On an Arnine or Arten, you were WAY ABOVE such "road hazards" ...
That MTA didn't do anything about that over 30 years' time is DAMNED clear to ME whose FAULT it is ... with 6 inch (plus a couple of FEET in HEIGHT) clearance, no Arten or Arnine conductor [when that fence was put up]) could have POSSIBLY be injured, so it was OK. BULLSHIRT it's HER fault. BULLSHIRT!!! :(
That fence should have been adjusted, just the same as any OTHER TA property should have been adjusted when the WORK CONDITIONS (inside instead of OUT) were changed. 30 years? NO EXCUSE! NONE! TA's fault! And I'll TESTIFY if the family calls as to what was appropriate for heights and spacing from rolling stock back then. I was DAMNED safe with the Arnines and Artens. NO EXCUSE.
And when I worked for the "ta" the stereotypes of "crime in da train" were REAL ... we were AUTHORIZED to take "all steps necessary to ensure the safety of our train and our passengers" ... now you've MET me, you know I'm not violent by nature, but I *ALSO* grew up in the Bronx where if you DIDN'T "rise to your opponent" then your neighbors would FINALLY know your name when they read it in the obits. I lived in an environment where if you ALLOWED people to phuck around, YOU were DEAD. Shaped my life, which is WHY I moved upstate to lose that mindset.
I VIVIDLY remember doing the conductor thing though - and we were SAFE up there ... anybody screwed with OUR train, they RUED the day they fought with a CONDUCTOR ... nevermind the COPS ... and the "ta" would back us UP if there was an "assault" complaint against us when TAPD investigated ... and the city DIDN'T lose the suit either when WE showed up and told it like it was ... my OWN mindset has always been "do no harm, BUT if harm is in your face, inflict the MAXIMUM just to make it STOP." Such was the "Bronx credo" ... or in more literal terms, "phuck 'EM up before they phuck YOU up." Yellow wood DID get aplied a couple fo times on the job. I was upheld EACH time.
Back to the REAL issue though, the SAFETY of being "up there" meant NEVER having to kiss ironwork as you stepped down. What happened to that sweet woman is BEYOND an excuse given how "cabs" have changed SINCE that fence was "safe" ... *NO* excuse for that having happened ... except for that damned party that rules this state ... "we believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ... EXCEPT where *WE* are involved. THEN it has to be those damned liberals, wasn't US. *WE* perfect, and of GOD!" :(
Like I said, "BULLSHIRT!!!"
DuPont Safety training is great, it is likely that 96% of accidents are avoidable but they go nutty when they insist that 96% of the remaining 4% is employees fault ad infinitum
I'm waiting to see them face reality one of these days and just get over their euphemisms and create a Management Confidential title of "Marquis, M-3" and "Marquis II, M-5" and just be done with it. :)
Ray Sanchez sounds like a shill for the twu. Where did he say anything that proves that the conductor followed procedures? Where did he prove that she didn't screw up? Yes, the family was traumatized. That doesn't alter the facts. No doubt, on the basis of this article, they've retained counsel and will sue the shit out of the MTA.
[long sigh]
Yes it was traumatic, and yes, mommy had a hard time dealing with it. Counseling is useful and good. All true.
The rest of the column is a commercial for Depends.
By the way, I have personally been involved in several incidents coming to the aid of stricken passersby, a few in the subway (New York, Boston and Philly). Other passengers always responded with me and showed a lot of care and kindness to the victim. Now, they weren't lying in a pool of blood like the late conductor, but Sanchez' portrayal of straphangers is really offensive.
www.transitblog.com
Peace,
ANDEE
P>
Looks like a preview of the future West End service. :-)
Taken not taked!!!!
I suppose it could be worse, he might have said tooked.
Then 5 hours later, it's me, Fred, and whoever else at Dekalb Ave waiting for the first scheduled N train over the Manhattan Bridge.
A Q train for you in the Brighton Beach station
Too bad Easyeverything (the internet cafe) at 42nd st is no longer open 24/7. I am itching for a computer after the 6th Ave/IND leg for the AIM chat.
If 2001 is any indication, the first northbound will be before the first southbound -- although, since the D will probably be based entirely out of Concourse, arriving W's might not become D's.
Mess with me and I'll put up the newspaper. Har har har.
Just kidding!
Yep, the guy that changed this to this. I have his photo but it was blurry and I didn't put it online.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It started as a D with a north terminal in the Bronx.
Someone might post the answer beforehand -- but, as you may recall, someone posted the 2001 answer beforehand, and it was wrong. (The first two Q trains ran light. Our train left 20 minutes after we were told it would leave. It was still the first over the bridge, but not by much.)
I don't know. I'm expecting to see a sign that will lead me to make the correct choice.
(Spending the night in Brooklyn?)
Or if you catch me at the same time on Thursday, I'll probably be in the lead car, along with a mutual acquaintance.
It might have been the work of an overzealous employee of the station-advertising company. By now, he's probably an ex-employee :)
I saw Prince St while on the Q train going uptown at 3:01PM. I first thought 28 St/B'way was an eyesore. Now Prince St has taken over that dubious distinction.
All I have to say about those new ads on the walls at Prince can be expressed in three letters: WTF.
And don't knock 28th. That artwork cracks me up!
Isn't this kind of advertising old news though? I thought it was months ago that some station got plastered with Washington Mutual ads?
See the A and C line G.O, coming this weekend.. Look closely at the instructions if you are at Spring, 23rd or 50th sts. So how will the F go via. 63rd st tube from 50th st/8th Ave? (impossible, but NYCT does not know this.)
Also see the instructions for local service between 59th st and 145th st, does not mention anything about the Uptown D line running local. If you need to go to 72nd St, you are better off transfering to the #1 train at 59th st/CC instead of this mess.
C is running express between Canal and 59, A is running local (why, I don't know) along with the E. So if you need one of those three stations or are starting from them on the uptown side, you need the A or E. What does the F have to do with any of this? Why are you even mentioning it?
But does NYCT know that 174th st station is closed?. The instructions say "For service to ....174th St." as per this weekends 2/5 line G.O.
But then passengers for Spring, 23, and 50 wouldn't be directed to take the A. So I don't know.
My question is: was there in fact some kind of shuttle service between Times Square and Penn Station until the rest of the 7th Avenue line opened?
I'd love to see a R33ML in service on the 7.
Memoirs of the 80's there...
The engineer of a train passing through Poland could see no lights
because the power had been knocked out. "We're running out of coal," he
said to his fireman, "but I think we're coming to Gdansk or Danzig, or
whatever they call it. Let's stop and send the porter out to buy fuel.
Can you see the sign on the depot?" The fireman replied, "It appears to
be Danzig in the dark." And the engineer shouted, "Buy coal, Porter!"
I plan on taking a trip soon to Fresh Pond Yard in Glendale, Queens soon. I know that the M train passes right over the LIRR ROW near the actual yard, but how would I get to the yard from either the Fresh Pond Rd. stop or the Metropolitan Ave stop? Is it a far walk? If it's not a far walk, could I manage the walk to the yard with a friend and not get jumped?
Thanks in advance!
I think we should get them all in a room and not let them out until they learn some responsibility.
I wasn't planning on trespassing at all. I asked one of the people that work there if I could hang out by the gate and watch the action (I plan on going early weekday morning). If anyone can answer without giving negative comments, please do.
I thought the same as C11CC did and that is why I made the comment.
Let me break it down:
"I plan on taking a trip soon to Fresh Pond Yard in Glendale, Queens soon." <-OK, so he wants to visit the NY&A yard.
"I know that the M train passes right over the LIRR ROW near the actual yard, but how would I get to the yard from either the Fresh Pond Rd. stop or the Metropolitan Ave stop?" <- The approach to the Metropolitan Ave station does go by the yard/bridge, he's right. He wants to know how to get to the yard if he were to get off at Fresh Pond Road or Metropolitan Avenue, which is a reasonable question. It's like asking how to get to Madison Square Garden from 34th/6th Ave. Nothing wrong here...
"Is it a far walk?" <-Is it a long distance from either of the given stations?
"If it's not a far walk, could I manage the walk to the yard with a friend and not get jumped?" <-If it isn't a far walk, is it a safe one from one of the two stations he stated above...
So, where in here does he state he will trespass? Don't be so negative.
NIMBYkiller will be accompanying me on this trip. Hopefully we'll be able to take this trip soon. I would never trespass in Fresh Pond yard. It's already a not-so-good area on top of it being an active railroad line. I just want to get some good photos and hopefully meet up with one of the engineers or workers there that I know from the Twin Forks trip there back in August.
I dunno, rumor has it you have to be at the Transit Museum early in order to score tickets for the day.
Or, east northeast on 68th Avenue, turn right on 65th Street, go under the Connecting Line trestle, left onto Otto Road. Continue on Otto Road to about 70th Street. You should then be able to walk onto
Montauk Branch LIRR, which will be to your left. You'll be east of Fresh Pond Yard and will need to walk back. The aforesaid truss bridge will be dead ahead of you.
Watch out for the law. Go in the daytime. The only major crime problem I know of in the area was, at the end of May 2001, rowdy gangs would come out at night and sit on stoops and car hoods and harass and vandalize the residents a few blocks southeast of 68th Avenue and 65th Street, at the intersection of Catalpa and Shaler Avenues. You might want to check in at the 104th Precinct NYC Police headquarters on Catalpa Avenue to identify yourself and ask some questions.
Joe
The following are some photos taken at least 10 years ago, and you can no longer take these angles as you can not (and should not) enter the ROW, but it should give you an idea of what you may be able to see from through the fence, at the corner where the cemetery, the NYCRR, and the LIRR all meet. Years ago they didn't seem to mind you entering the tracks, as there were no terrorism concerns, and MUCH less freight trains running through. You can enjoy it from the fence just as well, again, I haven't been there in at least 5 years though.
Oops, you have to Walk up to Central Ave and take a LEFT and walk towards 73rd Place...sorry for the typo.
The folks there are railfan friendly I-F you show respect & don't trespass.
That is true. But the ED ain't go'in nowhere. The redbirds are. And soon!
And, of course, the Snediker structure will be history very very soon.
BTW: Let's not forget that the Brighton line is among part of the subway's ONLY EIGHT track tunnel. (4 Brighton tracks, 2 4th Ave local tracks, 2 Dekalb bypass tracks.)
That's a good point, bloss. For one thing, what other subway system trackage in the city has also hosted commuter trains, as the Jamaica line did with the Chestnut St. connection to the LIRR? And I just like how the seemingly endless rows of classic walkup Brooklyn housing down the passing cross streets look from the el. Those are old neighborhoods passing by, and it's good to see them still.
Jimmy
OK, so you guys have your spacesuits feeling pretty tight about those rustbuckets and all, but I haven't seen *ONE* damned photo or rememberance of all those EARL SCHIEB guys who are now out of work with all them toasters on wheels these days. After all, the METAL in redboids went away DECADES ago ... only thing that's keeping the remains of the fleet from just dropping as red colored dust on the trackbed is all that PAINT ... and da bondo. :)
Jimmy : )
Jeemy
-Robert King
You and your camera should be perfectly safe on the L. And definitely try to ride the M, it's a short but interesting line.
It's weird because I've managed to take pics on NCS without any trouble, and when I recently rode on the Franklin Shuttle, a group of young men screamed out that they were going to get me and my camera. Luckily, I ran out of the car at Prospect Park, and took a southbound Q that was waiting on the platform.
Yup, that's true on the L:
And on the J:
...and CERTAINLY on the M:
Besides I screwed up the video of the redbird passing on the express.
AEM7
Sounds like a Horn & Hardart nightmare.
I just had this childhood impression that something could come undone, and I would be trapped in this large metal cylinder.
Do you mean when you were taking something out of the compartment at the automat the metal would turn around fast as when they were loading it and your hand would be trapped? Almost as bad as Karl's nightmare!!
In H & H I thought that it would chop your hand off at the wrist. I quickly learned that they could not turn the cylinder if you held the little door open. I always used my left hand to hold the door open until I got the sandwich out with my right
I must have had a thing about cylinders.
My dad claimed they were interlocked so that wouldn't happen but I never trusted them. I used to watch those doors snap closed and the turret turn and could swwar I heard evil laughter from the other side...
Bill "Newkirk"
-Robert King
Worst thing that happens when it makes schmutz outside is you get WET. So? :)
Be careful how you use it.
They didn't get that most of the early polyesters weren't de-stinkable and the low bidder was from the Philippines if I remember correctly. You'd THINK that with the humidity over there, they'd have noticed but I suppose since it left on boats for TA property ... heh.
But yeah, TYPICAL MTA solution - hand out gift bags to the condustors rather than fix the problem. Eventually they did. Once I was a civilian again, I noted a serious CHANGE with the new uniforms they issued in '71/'72 ... no more stink ... and it wasn't like TWU suddenly discovered bathwater. :)
As we used to say in the Bronx when some wisearse would flip their arms around (or their "chucks") ... "AHA! Karate! ... AHA! MONKEYWRENCH! WHAP!" ...
And the SUIT, "seabreeze," "wet dog," and "feets." Ptoo! :P
And after all, "you're-in" *IS* the "OFFICIAL Smell of New York." Heh.
Troy is merely the ARMPIT of New York. If you wanna smell a buttcrack, gotta go to East Greenbush. But I digress. Heh.
For me, it's the ride up route 7 near Latham by the water works which gives you that pungent "swimming pool" stank. Then keep heading WEST and it smells JUST like the Port Authority Bus Terminal, near Adirondack Trailwaste. Moo.
We prefer to refer to it as "Eau du progress" ... legislature's back in town, the sweet smell of sausage being crafted ... like around the refineries in LINDEN, NJ ...
That's why I was kinda hoping we could buy that 9 miles of track, put SOMETHING on it and invite BMTman up to RUN it whereupon we'd have a REAL news story ... "BMTman goes off his trolley." It'd be news HERE.
SCWOO the pommade ... TA monkey oil will give you that perfect doo every time. Heh.
On topic: "Inna Godda Da Vida" was actually a recording of an Arten pounding the rails. Heh.
Those were funny commercials, what with the guy busting up furniture trying to defend himself.
"Uh, Conductor - eeewwwwwwwww!! What's that smell?":)
And my now-88-year-old mother, who is now in Schenectady, probably can't sleep nights worrying about me falling out of the bus or the light rail car when the circular stuff turns too much. :-)
I have to say though, it'd be alot easier from Hunterspoint, but that's a different line. Is the goal just for a connection from LIC to NYP, or is it also to restore the entire LIC line(LOWER montauk line)?
I think the Lower Montauk stations should be re-opened, but with low level platforms
Much better -- at only a few times the cost -- to add another two-track tunnel into Penn Station. Remember that one of the 3 final alternatives in the ACR EIS proposes this.
How could a new two-track tunnel into Penn Station cost only a few times more than two thousand feet of track, and a few switches, in LIC ?
And the NIMBYs would go on both sets of tracks...
There is a Flyover to the Hunterspoint yards just east of the LIC station. A westbound lower Montauk could access the yard, continue eastwards through the yards, swing on the loop that is used for yard moves on 42/3 streets in Sunnyside and re-enter westbound service to the tunnels...Like I said on maps possible, but it will require electrification or some dual mode engines, oe just allow through non electric service-not practical for service
Antoniette
Also, I think skipping out on LIC as a station, whether it's a new underground addition to the current LIC station, or at the current one, is a bad idea.
However, is there anyway that you could link the US transit systems off the main page separately of the rest-of-the-world transit systems. I realize that your site is NYCsubway.org, but the sections of the site relating to the other transit systems are extremely useful, it would be nice to have access to them straight off the homepage.
Thanks for considering any of this
A very good reorganization of the site and all it offers.
One thing though, there should be a reverse link to the NY site from the World main page. Just in case someone stumbles on the World site first from a Google search or something similar.
Very nice touches, now we have links to the 3 most recent media articles and the 3 upcoming events.
We both live on LI and I was thinking of driving to Sunnyside, parking the car, taking the # 7 and then #4 (n/b) from GCT unless a W is waiting at QB.
According to the mta website the #4 southbound operates at about 12 minute headways about 10PM when the game would probably end.
My question to the board is - Does NYCTA put in extra trains when the game ends, like the #7 does when Shea lets out or do you have to wait forever to get on a train ?
Thanx in advance
In the case of both lines, the extra trains are laid up on the center track north of 167th st station and there is about 5 to 6 trains on each line, more trains are added during the playoffs and World Series (if the Yankees get that far, sorry Fred.)
The B terminates at 145th st so no extra trains will start at 161st st.
IIRC the 12 minute headways is accurate for NON-GAME nights...
We do not endure as many losses as your MUTTS did this year.
Be sure to review the service advisories for the "4" and the "7". Almost all weeknight work starts at midnight.
You could take the R to Roosevelt, but you don't want to deal with that transfer if you don't have to.
The N stops running at 11 PM so I think if the game ended late, then the N would not apply.
Larry Littlefield should find this article interesting.
I am sympathetic to the view they express.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/08/nyregion/08STUD.html
New York City does both. The philosophy seems to be "if we are for it let's subsidize it, but if we are not subsidizing it we are against it." Not good for revenues for public services, or the tax rate of those not on the preferred list.
They just open and break the law. Occasionally they get busted, usually in some kind of non-zoning dispute, and only if run by a member of a minority group.
While in City Planning, I was in charge of a study (never released) to fix all this with a comprehensive zoning amendment. Had the new, reasonable, simplified rules all designed and approved with the Department, with zillions of pages of research backing it up. Pictures, graphs, charts, etc. Lots of people put in a lot of work.
Nothing ever happened -- not just on this project -- during my long tenure at DCP, one reason I left.
In any event, I brought a lot of the information home and was about to get rid of it, when I decided to mail some of it to the new City Planning Director (so she'd know how bogus her job was) and Building Commissioner, along with a reporter at the Times who had called me a couple of times looking for budget data. I'm out of that business now, working for an agency that has actually been permitted to accomplish some things, but I wonder if that had anything to do with any of this?
If any of you have a copy of the article, which I missed, I'd appreciate it if you could e-mail it to ldl-jmd@att.net.
Allowing more supermarkets in M-zones: Council.
Restricting excess community facility size in R-zones: Someone got to the Mayor (G).
Restructuring commercial use and parking rules (the project I was in charge of): Planning Director, who feared controversy.
Restructuring height and setback regulations: Mayor (G).
The new planning director just wants things to be pretty, and has presumably learned the lesson that the zoning resolution is unreformable. Why not just make everyone illegal, and then enforce against (or not) who you decide?
This wasn't what really killed me. It was policy, and that's the purview of policy makers. But I wasn't even allowed to publish data.
For example, I created a geocoding system to allow economic data to be coded to "business areas" which I surveyed and designated based on various criteria. It would have allowed a rough estimate of economic change for individual commercial streets like 7th Avenue in Park Slope.
Bottom line, I created the tabulation of state and local tax and spending data in just six weeks on my own time, and had NYU publish it on its website. That little piece of work contributed more to the city than everything I did in 13 years at City Planning. I'd say I was 5 percent productive. Prospective civil servants, beware.
My heart goes out to you. Congratulations on your escaping with your sanity. Oh, the number of times I've snuck in a rare productive two-week project on non-chargeable time ...
Thanks. The lesson -- if you want to accomplish things, and avoid falling into a depressive funk, work for a line agency, preferably one that actually has to provide a service people use. If your interest is policy, do something about it on your own.
The MTA isn't bad as public agencies go, but do you think Dave could have accomplished what he did as an MTA employee? He'd still be awaiting final signoff to go live with the site years later.
To be fair, when I first got there (end of the Koch administration) a problem was identified (lower-density residential zoning obsolete and gamed), research was conducted, meetings held, new regulations designed, negotiated, and enacted, all in little more than a year. I thought that was what my career at City Planning was like. Boy was I wrong.
Also to be fair, City Planning was a good place to be while parenting young children. They didn't mind me working part time. It was hard enough to keep me busy at is was.
Let's see if the politicians go for this though - there ain't much of a campaign contribution small companies can ante up. :(
Well not exactly. Large companies employ most workers, and small businesses "create" lots of jobs through sheer turnover -- one deli replaces another. The big job gains are in the minority of small companies that grow to big ones. The big job losses are in large companies that shrink to small ones.
Guess who New York chooses to subsidize?
What I was talking about are companies like OURS, which started small as a part time thing, grew to about 40 employees, only to be kicked in the teeth by the State Labor Department and then the economy. It's just the wife and I and I don't collect a check anymore. In our situation, we got dragged through the adminiswigs owing to a computer error at Labor that INSISTED that we hadn't paid unemployment and worker's comp for 9,999 employees on their COBOL boxes that crapped the bed on January 1, 2000 ... know WHY that happened? THEY never figured it out!
So NOW, as a result of that and other situations brought about by our anointed lawgivers, we're no longer employing ANYONE. We handed off all of our backend operations to a company in MINNESOTA that does that now, and they mail us a royalty check once a month based on how well what I write sells. That's why Unca Selkirk is such a GRUMPY cuss ... and the state CONTINUED to raid our home for over two years afterward before we finally got them to STOP. And they never admitted their error, our screwage was merely "redacted" ... if they lose their backup tapes, we could be right back in the barrel.
Bottom line, if we RE-GROW when there's an economy some day, we'll do it in MINNESOTA ... :(
The only other one I've heard about is at 23rd and Broadway. Are there others?
Who's making these choices? Two local stations?!
I wonder if Broad Channel is next on the list.
Which reminds me, I should be fast asleep by now. Good night!
Send an IM to TicoCG47, and if you don't have AIM, you can go to, obviously enough(!), http://www.AIM.com.
My person fave from the day...
The 10/11 car marker at 52nd street - Lincoln avenue:
More on my site:
www.johnvillanueva.com
New pics are in the Redbird, R-40, R-68, R-62a, and R-68a galleries.
But I took a great photo of it this past Friday....you missed that post? Here it is again :)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=559769
I think it was Trevor who took a great one of that nose in 2000 at Grand Central. There is also another of a R-142 with the Yankee wrap at about the same time. I was only able to get the side of it at E 180th. You guys take such much better shots then me :-(
AFAIK it still has the team decal, 6312 has the Mets team decal.
If they removed the painted face, I don't know.
It could only be #9575.
When the Twin Towers collapsed they severed boat electrical cables and water mains to the World Trade Center and the firemen were temporarily without water to fight the massive blaze.
New York's Fleet of Fireboats stepped into the breach. This city is very fortunate in having a fleet of five fireboats. Four were active on 9-11 and they proved their worth in spades.
Responding immediately to the fire came Marine 1, the fleet flagship, John D McKean with a pumping capacity of 19,000 GPM.(Gallons per minute), Marine 6, Kevin C Kane 5,000 GPM, and the tender Smoke II, 2000 GPM came from the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
Coming up from Staten Island came the most powerful piece of fire apparatus in the city if not the country. Marine 9 the Firefighter with eight monitor monitor guns and a pumping capacity 20,000 GPM.
Also in New York Harbor that day was the John J Harvey, 16,000 GPM which had been the apparatus of Marine 2 until it was disbanded several years ago. It was under private ownership but at the request of the FDNY it temporaily rejoined the department on 9-11 and its old unit number,Marine 2 was reactivated.
The three big boats; McKean,Firefighter and Harvey with a combined pumping capacity of nearly 60,000 gallons per minute worked non-stop for the next 72 hours and provided all water needs for the firefighters at the WTC.
The city was most fortunate to still have these powerful vessels on hand.
Tune in tonight at 10 PM the History Channel.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Very cool
I started noticing mixed IRT stock trains as far back as 1963. The older (1948-49-50) stuff was either on the Third Avenue el or the West Side lines.
wayne
wayne
Since the R-12/14s had electric doors, they didn't experience any delay when opening up. I am told that the R-10s did have this problem when intermixed with other cars; consequently they continued to run in solid trains.
The mixed consists ruled the 1 for my early years... It was a fact that
I'd be waiting at 225 and saying to myself "Lessee what train we get today"
(but back then I didn't know JACK about cartype numbers)... If I did, I could have put a number to their frame.
Majority I remember on the 1 were r12/14/15/21/22 MIXED everywhich way.
Jimmy
In other threads on the subjectof R12/14 and R15 cars, out on the Flushing line, someone mentioned they were not mixed because of the differences in the door operation controls for the conductors.
Perhaps this is the same reason they WERE mixed on the mainline during their couple decades there -- but you'd never see R12/14's as middle cars on a train (or did we? I don't seem to remember...) That way the conductor always had cabs to work in.
In the numbers run:
6301 to 6960
6971 to 6980
6991 to 71XX
then
1101 to 1215
1221 to 1225
Why did the TA skip 6961-6970, 6981 to 6990 and 1116 to 1120?
BTW they have a habit of skipping small bits of number sequences, i.e. #1625 thru #1650 in the R62 fleet.
wayne
David
David
Not quite; R-2, 3, 5, and 8 were not passenger cars.
Assuming that the R-series had originally been reserved only for passenger cars, what would the R-143 cars be called today?
Depends how you want to handle "A" contracts.
BMT standards were all considered the same type, whether they were called Standards, Steels, ABs or 67' cars, yet there were at least four distinct kinds, more different from one another than an R1 from an R9. So you could have had B-1 to B-4s. Or if you did it IND-style, they might have been B-1s to B-10s, one number for each delivery year.
How would you divide the 67-foot cars into four distinct types?
Based on your extensive knowledge, when did the moniker
"Standard" become popular? Is it purely a "railfan"
designation, or was it based on something the
B.R.T. / B.-M.T. / B.ofT. thought up?
Thanks.
In my time they were referred to as "the steel cars".
I guess because they were the first non-wood car.
I'm not sure, but I wonder if the name Standard might have been adopted later
2000-2499 Sloped clerestory with small vents, small signs, ACF
2500-2599 Sloped clerestory with large vents, large signs, ACF
2600-2899 Deck roof, louvered vents, large signs, Pressed Steel
4000-4049 Very like 2600-2899, but trailers, and tehe large roll signs in a different position.
Employees called them "steels", to distinguish them from "woods"--BUs.
I don't know whenthe first use of "Standard" was, but it probably derived from them also being called "Standard Steels," so MAY go back to BRT days.
In company papers (BRT/BMT/BofT/TA), they are variously "steel cars," "67 foot cars," "ABs" or "Bs" or "B-types." I'm not sure I've ever heard them referred to generically as "A-types."
Larry, RedbirdR33
Mark
Wait a minute, didn't the Redskins build their own stadium with their own money? If I recall that correctly, they are far down in the exploitation ranks.
In any event, this just proves that Monday Night Football is on too late (haven't seen a second half in years) and the Metro closes too early.
The people on the West Coast complained, so it's back at 9. I don't understand why it can't be time-delayed on the west coast like other live events such as the Oscars and Saturday Night Live.
CG
Mark
Unlike New York, London, Chicago, Berlin and Tokyo. Washington DC is a 9:00AM to 5:00PM town.
John
That's because all those other capitals were real cities that became capitals. DC was built from swampland to be a capital.
Mark
(That's because all those other capitals were real cities that became capitals. DC was built from swampland to be a capital.)
Actually, those who have actually done business with the federal government know it as a 7:30 to 3:30 town. You can call before 8:00, but don't bother after 4:00.
Consider this, though: do you really want people to not have subway service to ballgames? Do you want everybody to drive? (OK some will ride a bus).
Mark
7:08 NJT train 3813
7:09 NJT train 3822
7:13 Acela Express train #2150
7:22 Clocker #624
7:28 NJT train 3815 Comet V cab car
and ALP44 #4412
7:29 Amtrak Carolinian
Oh my, that sure looked weird. AEM7
What does churchbob do?
---Chap11
Genesis-led trains (long-distance trains from Florida and so on) do 110 mph along the NEC. I've seen them.
It seems they don't go over 100MPH because they physically can't. But between Newark and wherever the first stop is, the Clocker could be doing 125MPH. And probably at other times during the run, too.
You're kidding, right?
Actually, here is one photo I have of an E60
Here's one of my early E60 photos
Anyhow, your photo is cool. That E60 looks mean!
See how all the systems that end in 'MATA' or 'ARTA' have more money: WMATA, MARTA, BARTA.
See how all the systems that end in 'TA' has money problems, like LAMTA, MBTA, NYCTA, Cleveland RTA.
Maybe the T will have better luck raising ticket fares if they were to call themselves the Boston RTD. Just look at Denver with their $8.50 bus rides.
AEM7
PMATA = Paris Metropolitan Area Transit Authority
LMATA = London Metropolitan Area Transit Authority
SMATA = Stockholm Metropolitan Area Transit Authority
Peace
David
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
I would suggest either way, to go to www.bve-routes.com
It's an almost almost complete database and I think it has a link to the NY routes websites. The 2,L,7,E seems to be the most detailed. England and hong kong routes are insane with detail. I'll stop now so I won't ruin the fun of exploring.
AMATA = Atlanta MATA
BMATA = Boston MATA
CMATA = Cleveland MATA
DMATA = Detroit MATA
ETMATA = Eastern Tennessee Metropolitan Areas Transit Authority
FMATA = Florida Metropolitan Areas Transit Authority
etc etc etc
AEM7
You'll just be wasting a lot more money just chaning the names.
Federal Highways Agency
Federal Aviation Administration
Federal Railroad Administration
I suggest the following new agencies:
Federal Elevated Agency
Federal Trolley Agency
Federal Subway Agency
Federal Bus Agency
Federal Commuter Boat Agency
Federal Trackless Trolley Agency
Federal Bus Rapid Transit Agency
Federal Segway Agency
Federal Bicycle Agency
Federal Paratransit Agency
This way, each mode will have a Federal agency to defend its interests.
AEM7
The Railroads, highways, and airlines have federal agencies because they are interstate, when talking about public transportation, mainly its Local and state government agencies covering things. I'm not expert on these things but, what if you're system consists of Elevated portions, subway portions and not to mention bus service? Now you're under three different agencies under your proposal. Possibly just a Public Transit Agency with different departments within, but then again, like I said, its not the federal government, but local and state governments running most things.
Koi
Does crazy thing that cause trouble for ordinary railfans and workers on transit systems and railroads.
You know the type: steals things, goes places no sane person would, like climbing on signal bridges, on top of cars, locomotives on other equipment just to get that "perfect shot".
Dealt with them, hate them with a passion.
"Lock the doors, boys, here come the foamers."
--Mark
I guess I'm a minor case....
0:)
Huh? Gena wasn't blonde ;^)
Have you got some PROFF there vato, brah??
Say if I was, I surehell wasn't the ONLY one..... 34 hours in the undaground 'does' things to ya, esse!
Cold Pizza Boi.
But mystical chix can't be blonde without dye jobs.
Well, today I am sure there is a new "bunker" in some "undiscloused location", aka some sort of unmarked warehouse, but I have been thinking, why does this need to be a "bunker" and not a real bunker. My proposal is as follows and you all are free to comment and/or provide enhancements.
That large, abandonned lower level of the BMT City Hall subway station would make the perfect bunker. The space is pre-existing, its at least 3 levels below street level and, it is in spitting distance of City Hall where the mayor works. It also has great access to public transportation :)
But wait, it gets better. Based on the concept of the Laptop Docking Station, the core of the center could be a specially built subway train. It would serve the exact same role that Air Force One does for the president in that it could not only house the Mayor and various staff and security services, but also contain a complete communications, command and control package so that city government would continue to function even if the main offices had to be evacuated. It could be called Sub Force One or something drastically more original.
In times of crisis the mayor would head for the bunker and if things got really hot (like an immement impact of a nuckear missile) or if the mayor needed to make an on-site appearance, Sub Force One could simply "undock" from the bunker and then proceed up the Broadway BMT to wherever it was needed. This concept would provide the ultimate safety for the mayor and other VIP's in that it is A, underground, B, a sealed climate controled re-enforced steel box and C, it is mobile.
I discussed this idea with pigs and we came up with the following outline for the design of the train. From end to end it would be:
Dual Mode, electro-diesel propulsion car
Security and staff car
NBC Decontamination and labortory car
Excursion vehicle car
Communications car
Conferance Car/City Council Car
Medical/Dining Car
Mayor/VIP Accomidation Car
Security/Armoury Car
Dual Mode, electro-diesel propulsion car
The excursion vehicle would be an amphibious, all wheel drive SUV/RV combination that the mayor could use to get right up to the disaster area. I say amphibious because how else would he get to Staten Island (or any of the other islands for that matter). The car would probably be some sort of hi-railer, for easier deployment, but it would have diaphrams at each end and you would be able to pass through.
Sub Force One would normally run on 3rd rail, but in the event of a power failure, it would switch to diesel. Moreover, it would have an easily disableable trip-stop system to operate during times of signal system failure. I am assuming the train would be built to IRT specs to operate all over the system, but this point can be argued.
So, that's my plan, any thoughts?
Also a good pretext to put emergency power to the tracks for at least part of the Lower Manhattan system. Without that, Mike, what you have is another underground office trailer park.
Maybe the fact that there wasn't any real bombing in Paris had something to do with it!! Now maybe if you mentioned the subways in London, Berlin, or Tokyo...
*It's still one of my favorite movies even though casting Kirk Douglas as George Patton was the worse example of casting I've ever seen!
The new Emergency Bunker is in the DUMBO section of Brooklyn.
Right, and it is no secret where it is. The permanent home will be the former Red Cross building, which is where you exit the High-Street Brooklyn Bridge subway stop for the quickest route to the Brooklyn Bridge pedestrian path.
Conveniently close to Jacques Torres Chocolates on Water Street.
-Robert King
And then has to pay another fare to get back on his train.
Also, didn't this car appear in the August '93 edition of Passenger Train Journal?
(tho I found common to see ALL three rollers showing different terminal names
and not mention a route)
Others might know more...
Ghads, how I *loathed* those things. Never got to run one though outside of school car ...
One of many problems with R10's was stuck brakes and cams that were in the wrong location at startup.
Also, if these trains were starting up ahead of the first couple of notches, wouldn't they be blowing the motor windings on a frequent basis?
-Robert King
Always honked me off when the dispatchers would yell at us for full parallel on CPW ("you morons are eating up the tracks and points!") ... uh yeah, go talk to the Arten guys. :(
But yeah, all you said. Grounded Shoe Beam has some interesting audio recordings of what would result from Artens "doing their thing." I'm sure he'll post now that I've put the teaser up top so you can hear the typical "skreek-thud-*BANG*!!!" for yourself. :)
I'm surprised that the R10s could even try to take power when the camshaft was out of the starting position. I'd have thought that the line switch would be interlocked with the first contactor on the camshaft so that the lineswitch couldn't close without the first contactor being in its correct position. If that were the case and the camshaft was in an incorrect position, the lineswitch would not be able to close and apply power to the system until the camshaft returned to the start position - neatly solving the take-up problems. It sounds like there might have been a bit of a design problem there...
I'd like to hear those recordings - they sound like there going to be better than PCCs spinning and axle or two...
-Robert King
Thanks for sending the file along.
-Robert King
But yeah, you could hear the stuck brakes and the car in full parallel at takeoff there. :)
I *loved* them BECAUSE they kept you on your toes ... you had to be paying attention for your entire run. Or, as they said in schoolcar, "watch it, these things will get away from you before you know it." But I don't expect others to partake in my perversions. I *liked* arnines, but you had to be in the cab to TRULY appreciate them.
But arnines can only REALLY be appreciated by running them. SUCH a pleasure. :)
After 30+ years away from running them, it was a treat for me last time I was there.
2) R27
3)Shoefuse
4)bumping block
I'll bring the jumper cables for the Whitcomb. Let's see if we can make that Q car roll. (grin)
"But CAP'N! I'm giving her all she's got - she'll blow up fer sure!"
(grin)
As for the side roll sign situation, it is correct about their route and destination boxes (done by Hunter Illuminated Sign Company of Flushing) and their original positions. NYC Transit's Bergen Street Sign shop did create a new batch of mylar curtains during the time the 110 Westinghouse cars were being done in the green paint scheme, but just with listed terminals and routes for the "C", "G" and "H" lines only.
A vendor named Harlem Silk Screening made new side roll signs in 1985 for the R-10's that had all IND-BMT terminals combined into full northbound and southbound distinct units, as well new separate ones for the R-12/14/15's with their needed IRT terminals. Oddly, I had not seen any new ones featuring routes though.
I personally seen one of those newer Harlem Silk Screening IND-BMT R-10 side roll signs on GE car #3317, and that was all. The R-12/14/15 signs turned out to be a bad purchase, because they were all gone from service in 1984, thus NYC Transit had to sell them off at their infamous Transit Museum Garage Sale a few years ago. I own two complete sets of the IRT side roll signs in my collection, which had separate northbound and southbound terminals, but one downtown designation as a mistake saying "135th Street-Lexington Avenue" (instead of Lenox).
The final R-10 side roll sign contracts came in the fall of 1988, with all the terminals printed by Multiple Products of Toronto, Canada, and the routes done by Translite (or Transign) of Milford, Connecticut. This time, the new mylar rollers, even seen to this day on restored museum car #3184, only listed the terminals and routes for the "A", "C", "H" and "D" lines plus Shuttle and Special.
As for the lighting of the R-10 side roll signs, I do remember being them green back in the 1960's, but then of course that stopped being the case for the reason given in Grounded Shoe Beam's post. However, the last time I had seen a lighted R-10 side box was on, and of all things, green car #3037 in 1989 on an uptown "C" line run to the Bronx, but it was unusually white instead of being green.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
I saw one green R-10 with a back lit side sign in green !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
David
The R-42's with the same setup I could barely remember, and may have seen at least on one them on a "J" train in Manhattan, but that's about it. Of course, there were roll signs for the R-27/30/32/38's printed in the 1980's that had these so-called "future" routes in circles on a white background: "P", "T", "U" and "X".
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
Thank you.
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Hey William, did you ever have an R-10 consist go bad while riding on it?
I did get an R-10 (#3218) one time that had some very sticky brakes on a 1975 southbound "A" trip towards 14th Street-8th Avenue, but the train just kept going eventually to the end of its run. Let us not forget that even after the 110 Westinghouse cars were GOH'd into as the green units, their ride on some them became so shaky and rough and a bit more noisy. You would think the trucks on some of the GOH green R-10's had permanent spotted wheels.
Yes, there will be times those R-10 units (but not all of them) will run properly without any severe problems on their "best" behavior, while there will be those units acting very tempermental and stubborn on occasions as well. In terms of the latter, this is probably one of the reasons in 1984 that NYC Transit took out of service and scrapped many troublesome R-10's at Coney Island Yard and Linden Yard, including the very first one built and delivered #2950 (ex-1803). Please do not get me wrong on this topic, but even though the R-10's are still my all-time favorite NYC Transit subway cars as a personal choice and preference, I am not going to say to anyone that they were always a problem-free fleet in their four decades of revenue service.
-William A. Padron
["Uptown to 207th St."]
So this explains why all of the sudden by the Summer of 1983, the bulk of the "C" service was provided by R38s - when the R44s returned from their "vacation" from 1982.
Early 1985, the R40s disappeared from the "A", the R38s left the "C" and went back to the "A", the R10s returned to the "C" and they disappeared from the "G" altogether. This was before the first Green R10 appeared on the "C".
Just missed it ...
-William A. Padron
["Lefferts Blvd, Queens"]
1988 was a weird year for me. I did almost no railfanning between March and November.
Soon, the GE R-10's would slowly be phased through many revisions of the needed car requirements through that, and when the October 14, 1988 IND-BMT assignment was issued, there was 119 R-10's that were to be in active duty. On that date, there were 54 graffitied units still on the property, with 23 of them in active use and 31 as just simply spares.
When all of the graffitied and/or GE R-10's were off on that November 10, 1988, all that remained was the 110 green GOH'd WH units. As a memory, I recalled one GE R-10 consist on a mid-1988 "A" put-in during the Williamsburgh Bridge shutdown that operated towards Euclid Avenue, with #3267 as the south motor car and #3068 as the north motor car.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
The GE R10s lasted into the Summer of 1989. This much I am sure of. Although they were due to retire anyway, they were retired "early" due to a huge water main break around 42nd St and 8th Ave forcing suspension of all 8th Ave subway service between W. 4th St and Columbus Circle.
During that time the "C" operated as far as 34th St only. This enabled the TA to retire the last of the R10s because they didn't need as many cars to provide service.
This was an interesting period for a number of subway routes.
At first, all 8th Ave subway routes operated along 6th Ave. for about a week. This proved to be disasterous at best because of bottlenecking and numerous track switching which lead terrible delays, as well as mass confusion.
The following week the TA came up with this plan:
"A" operated between 34th St and Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd-the R44s provided 100% of the service (that was the summer from hell).
"C" operated between 34th St and Rockaway Park or Euclid Ave.-operated 10 car, YES 10 car consists of R10s, rebuilt and unrebuilt R30s and only 2 sets of R38s. They later removed the R10s from service.
"D" didn't have rush hour Bronx express service (not sure about this one).
"E" operated between WTC and 179th St via 6th Ave.
"Q" trains operated between 207th St and Brighton Beach from 6 am to 9 pm weekdays making all express stops only; and between 207th St and 2nd Ave nights and weekends making local stops-operated mostly R38s and a handful of R68s. In fact, during this time for some reason half of the lights were not operating in the R38s. Does anyone know why this was done?
During the fleet's final summer, I kept a keen eye on the activities of the R-10's on the "C" line, including actually photographing slides of the consists (all green units seen) along 8th Avenue, Liberty Avenue and the Rockaways. During those days of that particular summer I had seen no graffitied General Electric R-10's in use anywhere on that "C" line, but if I did, I would have snapped them on film with my camera, and made a written record of it.
But of course, the September 3, 1989 Con Edison asbestos foulup caused a major headache on the IND, with the reroutes you mentioned in your post. You are correct that some green R-10's were used just oh so briefly durig that mixup, and there is an image of car #2967 at 34th Street-8th Avenue in the R-10 car picture section of this web page, showing as a "C" train ready to leave this interim terminal point back to Rockaway Park.
Keep in mind that I keep a huge back catalogue of E.R.A. New York Division "Bulletins" as far back as 1964, so they are usually as a very reliable reference source in case there is a discrepancy on certain car and route assignment matters, which have been known to come from NYC Transit's roster sheets. The date of November 10, 1988 is the date as written and found in the 1989 "Farewell to the R-10" fantrip brochure for the last date of the graffitied units.
Besides, if there were still to be non-GOH'd GE R-10's in service, let us say, after the December 11, 1988 schedule change with the routes revision connected with the Archer Avenue extension opening, they might to have new roll signs installed all around. This happened on the sister Westinghouse green units, and a good chunk of them from the now 110 car fleet were even seen briefly on the weekend "C" 145-WTC runs on a full time basis until February (or so) 1989.
-William A. Padron
["145 Street, Manhattan...Chambers St-WTC"]
Before the GOH, what were the differences between the Westinghouse and GE R10s-sounds, cosmetically?
Even the R-68's had that same type of rotary screw compressor sound in the beginning, before that fleet had a major changeover to a better compressor a few years ago. I heard a story that restored R.P.C.-owned "museum" car #3184 now has an air compressor that was salvaged off from an R-27/30, while R.C.I. Yard office car #3189 at Pitkin Yard still has its original one intact.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
That was the ONE thing that I didn't like about Arnines. Damned 42's and 32's would pull in and dump LOUDLY (*love* the 143's for this too) whereas when I did a handle out on the arnines, it just went "SIGH" ... wimpy I tell ya, WIMPY.
But that was also one of the nice things - center up, handle out and REMAIN charged. Can't do THAT on an arten. Neener-neener. =)
I would verify that the G.E. R-10's air compressors did run slower at times, and I can particularly recall that fact on two cars: #3292 sitting at Rockaway Park station, and #3335 in storage at Concourse Yard, both in the late 1970's. Each of them on those units sounded so very rough and not necessarily in the same tone and pitch as the other R-10's I had been normally accustomed to hearing.
I was never that crazy about those NYAB rotary screw compressors in the first place anyhow, and you are right about being in most cases annoyances as mentioned in your post. It did not help matters along with getting a green R-10 car with spotted wheels as a deadly audio sounding combination.
Thanks to a fellow railfan colleague, I have such a situation like that, which was originally recorded in 1988 on an audio cassette sent to me awhile back. As I hear the tape of the "C" train arriving at Beach 105th Street-Seaside, one GOH R-10 car's NYAB rotary screw compressor did sound like it was really leaking something as well being having the effect of an electric hair dryer turned up to high, plus the flat wheels to boot.
Finally, it is true that there were a certain number of green R-10's that kept their original 2CY air compressors at first, even after their initial overhaul. As now getting used to hearing the noise of the NYAB units on the other cars giving out their usual stuff audiowise, I was pleasantly surprised while waiting on the downtown platform of 125th Street in 1985 that this one GOH'd R-10 that came into the station (I think it was car #3170 or something) was sounding off with its original 2CY unit.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
The R-10s also had another endearing quality - sheer brute speed.
2951, 2955, 2956, 2957, 2958, 2959, 2960, 2961, 2962, 2966, 2967(*), 2968, 2969, 2971, 2973, 2974, 3001, 3003, 3005(*), 3008, 3011, 3013, 3016, 3018, 3021, 3022, 3023, 3025, 3026, 3027, 3029, 3030, 3031, 3033, 3035(*), 3036, 3037, 3038, 3040(*), 3043, 3044, 3045, 3047, 3048, 3101, 3107, 3110, 3114, 3116(*), 3117, 3118, 3121, 3123, 3125, 3126, 3128, 3130, 3133, 3136, 3137, 3138, 3139, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145, 3146, 3149, 3150(*), 3153, 3154, 3157, 3158, 3159, 3161, 3164(*), 3166, 3168, 3169, 3170, 3173, 3176, 3177, 3181, 3182, 3184, 3185, 3186, 3187, 3191, 3193, 3194, 3197, 3198, 3199, 3201(*), 3203, 3204, 3205(*), 3206, 3208(*), 3209, 3212, 3215, 3216, 3219, 3220, 3221 and 3224.
(*) = Car that had its side number plates lowered from the top of the roofline a few inches down.
The W.H. R-10's that NYC Transit did not choose to be in this overhaul program were:
2965, 3009, 3010, 3039, 3046, 3152, 3188, 3190, 3210 [reported to have G.E. parts instead] and 3223.
Big thanks and huge credit to Grounded Shoe Beam posting for the vendor's name of the GOH'd cars rotary screw compressor which was NYAB (New York Air Brake). The original R-10 air compressors were mentioned on that post as being 2CY types, but NYC Transit's car specifications listed them as being WABCO A-1 units - 3YC type compressors, although they can be both considered as correct.
Finally, the electrical motor and controls originally distributed in the R-10 fleet based on the car numbers assigned were as follows:
2950-2974, 3000-3049 and 3100-3224 with W.H. motors and controls; 2975-2999, 3050-3099 and 3225-3349 with G.E. motors and controls.
Cars 2950-2999 were formerly 1803-1852 between 1948 and 1970.
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp."]
Come think of it, I did report that #3210 as still being an unoverhauled Westinghouse car in a mid-1986 edition of the N.Y. Division-E.R.A.'s "Bulletin" newsletter, and this was after the green GOH'd program was completed. Supposedly, one knowledgable NYC Transit roster keeper claimed that #3210 was converted with G.E. parts, but thanks to you and your instant response, it was a W.H. car through it all in the end (so I stand corrected).
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
The official Board of Transportation photographs that are in my private archival collection do separately show #1575 and a typical R-10 car as new with those blue-and-grey interiors. However, I remember a certain number of R-10's in the 1960's to have a repainted solid "Patterson Green" interior, and this is evidenced in looking at James Greller's book "New York City Subway Cars" with a picture of #1848 (later known as #2995) as proof.
For those batch of R-10 cars that were painted in that firehouse tartar red exterior setup (like the R-29's) in 1962, the interior for them was purplish blue for the doors, bright orange for the walls and solid white for the ceiling. Ironically, this same particular interior scheme showed up also in R-9 car #1741, and this experimental color usage were set to be based upon the official flag for the City of New York.
-William A. Padron
["Wave Crest"]
-William A. Padron
["Aqueduct"]
But then, the R-10's was going through some subtle cosmetic changes and attention like never before. All fiberglass hard seats were being installed on the fleet between July 1967 and February 1968, and the cars went through the repainting process with the white stripe filled in between August 1968 and March 1969.
Car #3189 had those additional seats installed sometime during the spring of 1969. Finally, the R-10's went back to the paint shop again for the MTA silver/blue combo scheme between August 1969 and June 1972.
Finally, through some research from some past E.R.A. New York Division "Bulletins" from 1964, and combined with what's in my slide collection, there were actually NINE red R-10's painted. They were cars #1822 (ren-2969), #1825 (ren-2972), #1850 (ren-2997), #3099, #3101, #3137, #3234, #3334 and #3342.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Euclid Av."]
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
Larry,RedbirdR33
From the stories I had heard and read (particularly from a New York Times article from that year), and it is still not clear if they are accurate or confirmed, #1575 may have been involved in a wreck somewhere along on Central Park West in 1946. It is probably the only known information I can possibly recall right now at this moment.
#1575 did, of course, later become the R-10 prototype car, and it would later displayed to the general public at Hudson Terminal on July 9, 1947, and at 34th Street-6th Avenue on July 10, 1947. You might say that was the very first post-W.W.II car design to be introduced for the NYC Transit System.
However, on a similiar topic, for years there was a mystery of R-10 car #3047 having an R-16 front storm door, and how it received it. Simple, that car was involved in a collision with R-15 car #5962 at 207th Street Yard in the fall of 1974, but #3047 was repaired and returned back into service in the spring of 1975 (with that storm door).
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-207th St."]
Also, I am curious, why wasn't any 3300s rebuilt? Was it because none of the 3300s were Westinghoues?
As for the 3300-series R-10's not being rebuilt because they were all G.E.-equipped, that statement is indeed correct. It was only in the final determination to have 110 W.H. units be overhauled in the plan, and nothing more.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Let me go to The Book (Passenger Car Data, 1947-1968)..
Sure 'nuff:
GE: 1828-1852 (2975-2999)
3050-3099
3225-3349.
I have NO green dots in any of those ranges.
wayne
The green GOH R-10 program was designed to extended the cars' service life for another five years at most. However, you are not only to claim that the cars were good to last ten years instead, which I heard such a similar statement at an Urban Transit Club several years ago.
-William A. Padron
["Aqueduct"]
Entire controller box
Air compressor
Motor-generator
Air brake system
All fans
All door operators
Air brake modification for composition brake shoes
Entire truck
Paint inside and out
Reflooring
As for what those at UTC thought, their thoughts were (as they are now) based on railfan romanticism, not on facts (I've been to enough of their meetings to know, as Bill Padron can attest). The FACT is, those cars were never very reliable even after overhaul. Neither were the GOH'd R-30s (which got an overhaul closer in scope to what the R-36s got than to what R-29 and later overhauled cars got, with much repairing and little replacing of components).
David
Even the last two R-10's that came out of the overhaul program in February 1986 at 207th Street Shop (#3037 and #3169) only were in service for another three-and-a-half years on the road at best. The cost of each R-10 car GOH was about $65,000 each, or roughly about $7 million, and that came from NYC Transit five-year capital budget established at the time.
-William A. Padron
["Broad Channel, Queens"]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-168th St."]
Larry,RedbirdR33
wayne
While the R-10's were still associated with the "A" line back then, they first appeared on the "GG" route one month after the major changeover on October 20, 1977 when most of the fleet were sent to the "CC" based out of the Bronx. However, I can recall as a rider one fall 1977 R-10 "GG" trip pulling into Woodhaven Boulevard, and one passenger entered at the station for the train inside saying to himself, "What's the 'A' train doing here?"
-William A. Padron
["Queens-Forest Hills"]
People were whining and complaining because they expected to see their cool knight in shining armour the R46s and "pleasantly" surprised when those hot grunged R10s were waiting for them instead.
I enjoyed every minute of it.
In case you're wonder, I rode the R-10's in regular service on the "E" route 20 times, while on the "F" route it was just only six times. Man, I remember one Queens-bound R-10 "E" run that was really ripping at a fast clip along Queens Boulevard, and actually racing neck-and-neck with an R-46 "N" train heading towards Woodhaven Boulevard.
-William A. Padron
["Queens-Forest Hills"]
Wayne says that F train he took with 3080 as lead motor took the Queens Plaza-Union Tpk stretch at a fast clip, then turned on the afterburners between Union Tpk and Parsons Blvd. He estimates that train was doing 50-55 as it blasted past Sutphin Blvd.
Although as the green R-10's would never be seen running on the "G" route in regular service, NYC Transit's Bergen Street Sign Shop did print up in 1985 for only the GOH'd units new mylar front and side roll signs that had just the terminals and routes for the "C", "G" and "H" lines.
-William A. Padron
["Broad Channel, Queens"]
October 1987 was one of the most bizarre months for car assignments that I have ever experienced. Among other bizarre sights then:
- R68's on the F
- Red R30's on the Broadway R out of Continental
- R46's on the N to Astoria
The R46's on the Astoria line actually started in September and lasted for about 6 weeks. The R68's on the F train ran for almost a month, but the set of red R30's on the R to Queens only ran there for a week or so. It was the only time I ever rode a 10 car set of overhauled R30's.
They looked in place to me on the "GG" because they provided 100% of the service on that line WEEKDAYS ONLY from 1978 to 1985.
But I do understand what you mean though.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-168th St."]
By the start of 1984, NYC Transit had already removed and scrapped about at least 60 R-10's. Not only did the agency got rid the very first one built and delivered #2950 (ex-1803), they also retired and junked car #3000, which some rail buffs had lamented that R-10 unit should have been saved as a museum car.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Euclid Av."]
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
I never heard of this before. Could you please elaborate on it?
Thus, NYC Transit made some adjustments to its IND Fulton Street and BMT 14th Street-Canarsie route services. For the IND in particular, all JFK Express trains were to run in regular passenger service in full 8-car R-46 consists making all Fulton Street express stops, and dropping its extra preminum fare policy. Also, there were extra put-ins with additional rush hour "A" line service between Manhattan and Euclid Avenue, so there were both green and non-GOH R-10's plus I believe R-27/30's also pulled from the "C" line roster pool.
For the BMT, there was more trains available on the "L" route, and if I am correct on this one, the BMT Nassau Street and Broadway-Brooklyn portions of the "J/M" routes were separate, with no trains between Essex Street and Marcy Avenue. All yard and shop transfers between East New York Yard and Coney Island Yard had to be done with the use of the Long Island Rail Road's Bay Ridge freight branch.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton St. Local"]
As far as the "A", R10s did appear on the "A" throughout 1984 from time to time.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
The membership of both the U.T.C. and the E.R.A. would soon see that I has this, um, fascination...okay, obsession plus this knowledge with the R-10's themselves, especially being on the IND "A" line. I have been a long time transit buff since age 4 (the year 1962), and it was that fleet on that route that made it all possible, so credit them for doing so. I was also given the nickname for a brief time as "Mr. 'A' Train", but that was only because of the close and my personal association with the R-10's on that route.
By the way, when I post these messages on the R-10's or anything else in general, they come freely from my memory banks and visual instant recall without notes in front of me at all. Also, I can be very specific while on Subtalk on certain and distinctive R-10 car numbers from that fleet of 400 cars built that I know from past knowledge or first hand experience. By the way, I was there right up to the last time and very end of their 40-year service life with the R-10's ever operated on their "Farewell" fantrip chartered by the E.R.A. on that Sunday, October 29, 1989.
-William A. Padron
["American Car and Co.-Builder"]
So that's what happened to MESTA. I used to go to those meetings-they were at the "Y" at 47th St and 3rd Ave. I really remember those meetings because that was the first time I attended a slide auction. I remember that they were auctioning slideds of green R10s, just put in service. I remember someone paid either $45 or $47 for ONE slide. That was when I realized that there were people much crazier about subways than I was. LOL.
-William A. Padron
["Rockaway Park, Queens"]
We probably know each other by sight.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton St. Local"]
For those pictures that I was trying to post, type in the following address.
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/farrockawayatrain
-William A. Padron
["Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx"]
Would this have any effect on the bill validators in the MVM's?
: )
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or the MTA/NYCT's track record with the new Neighborhood Maps installed at station mezzanines. Like how do station entrances that were closed nearly 20 years ago are still on the maps?
Mark
Not for long, the Euro is gaining ground, especially with criminals thanks to the 200 Euro note. We should bring back the 500 to counter it.
People on other continents cannot be made aware of the all the security features, hell, the gov't has a hard time doing that with US residents.
Why do we care about people in other countries?
What if all the billions of dollars in bills worldwide were found to be nearly all fake?
Life sucks for them.
The value of the dollar would plummet. That is what it boils down to.
No it wouldn't. First, most dollars are electronic these days. Second, the value of the dollar in the short run is dependent upon interest rates, projected future stability and some other macro economic factors. In the long run it is dependent upon a product parity. The decrease in demand for American cash by those who were not in a position to validate the authenticity of the bills (poor/middle class ppl in devoloping nations) would have little effect on the global value of the dollar.
Anyway, it is in Bush's best inteest to devalue the dollar. A cheaper dollar will drive up demand for US goods overseas and will creat jobs he will then try to attribute to his tax cut.
€500 note, there is no €200 note.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/economy_finance/euro/essentials/coins_notes/notes_mockups/index_en.html
Try that weg page and you will see a 200 euro bank note... unless it's inaccurate.
The benefit to the Treasury of criminals worldwide loaning money interest free to the Treasury while they hoard $500 bills would be more than offset by the lost tax revenue because it would be easier for American tax evaders to remove large sums of money out of the US undetected and untaxed.
I gave the thing back right away and kept the two $5s that the guy wanted to change fore, but apparantly this guy successfully passed this botched thing to the convenience store by the school (truth be told, the place was packed and extremely busy because class had just finished for the day and the probably didn't have a chance to notice that this thing was fake).
-Robert King
Copiers and printers add extra blue if they detect that money is being copied (I have no idea how they do that, but it's built into the printer driver software).
This reason the change to colour really pisses me off is that most money in the world is more valuable as artwork than as the currency they represent. Our country didn't need fancy colours to give value to its money. Hmmm, makes you wonder if what with our massive new national debt the Treasury is just being proactive as to the future value of our notes.
Changing the look so you'd know in a quick glance/feel that it is real is more effective than attemping to get people to closely examine every bill they recieve. That won't happen.
However, one thing that many cashiers all over the country will do when a customer gives a $20 bill or higher is that they will use a special marker and mark the bill. The ink turns yellow when marked on real currency. Black, I believe, for anything else.
I think that's a quasi urban legend. My friend who worked at Commerse Bank was given a regular sharpie and instructed to "mark" the bills. The only reason was sort of a reverse placebo effect. If ppl think you have a sceret pen, they won't try to pass the bills.
The best security feature is still the paper. No one has yet been able to replicate it.
Uh... Pardon me, but when ywas the last time that congress ever asked for or followed public input?
Elias
Also, if a Congressman is pushing for it, that contradicts your stating that Congress has no say over the look of money.
Finally, many stable currencies are different colors, including Canada, UK, all the Western European countries before and now that they use Euros, Switzerland, etc. etc. Sure, countries with constantly devaluing currencies have color, but clearly that does not correlate.
The following information regarding the average life of a Federal Reserve Note was provided by the Federal Reserve System (via the Treasury Department website) - please note that the life of anote depends on its denomination:
$ 1 ................ 22 months
$ 5 ................ 16 months
$ 10 ................ 18 months
$ 20 ................ 2 Years
$ 50 ................ 5 Years
$100 ................ 8.5 Years
Information elsewhere on the website puts the average life of a $2 bill at 6 years - surprising, from my perspective, since they seem to circulate so little. But I guess that those in circulation change hands at only a slightly lower rate than the $50. I'm also surprised that the $1 bill lasts longer, on average, than the $5 or $10 note - I had always believed it to be the shortest-lived.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also believe the paper is made in OK or Kansas.
Massachusetts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the Court St station was designed to be a turn-around point for regular Fulton St local service that was not meant to continue into Manhattan. The GG was designed to be a local in South Brooklyn and Queens Blvd, the other, outer borough 4 track IND branches, while the HH was to have that role on Fulton St. Most HH trains were signed "Fulton St local", though they never actually filled that role.
As far as lay-ups, it's kind of silly to lay-up trains there. What would lay-up? Probably extra trains used during rush hours. These would end at the eastern end of the line and can be stored in the Pitkin yard. In order to use Court, one would have to go to the express tracks east of Hoyt to switch to local tracks going to Court....so why not just lay-up on the express tracks? No, it seems Court was designed as a stub-end terminal all the way.
Perhaps. IND theory of feeder locals and long expresses did not completely pan out. It worked OK on the 8th Avenue Line, but failed on the Fulton and was mixed on the Queens Boulevard Line.
It was never implemented at all on Fulton Street.
It was implemented on the South Brooklyn line for 9 years before being cancelled due to protests by local passengers bound for Manhattan.
It was initially implemented in Queens by necessity, but in 1956(?) the local tracks got one direct link to Manhattan, and in 2001 they got a second link to Manhattan. If you think Queens crowding is bad now, could you imagine if only the E and F ran into Manhattan, with no help from the R or V?
I'm not sure what you mean by 8th Avenue, since the 8th Avenue line isn't in an outer borough. The local tracks do dead-end at WTC, but for at least 35 years (I'm not enough of an expert in IND routing history to go beyond that) there has been at least part-time service between the 8th Avenue local stations and Brooklyn.
The Concourse line missed out on the experiment completely, because it only has three tracks. (I wonder what would have happened if it had been built with four. Would the local tracks have terminated somewhere in the Bronx, or maybe at 155th?)
BTW, did any BMT standards run on the Queens Blvd local in the 1950's, before the R27's showed up, or did the new Broadway/Queens Blvd BMT/IND service use R1/9 cars based in Jamaica?
True. I've heard it was given up because th 11-car trains were too difficult to spot, but I don't know for sure that was the reason.
BTW, did any BMT standards run on the Queens Blvd local in the 1950's, before the R27's showed up
Of course. It was like the BMT ran with trackage rights. The Standards used separate BMT conductor's boards, separate car stop markers, and even separate heat/window indicators marked "BMT" at Continental Avenue.
David
"Following careful studies of the possible effects on operations, the Authority prepared schedules, to become effective in July 1958, which eliminated the rear guard (or secondary conductor) on certain trains on the BMT and IND Divisions. These produced substantial reductions in operating costs, without affecting service to passengers or placing undue burdens on employees. The Transport Workers Union, as employee representative, followed the regular contractual steps and sought a review of the proposed schedules, alleging a deleterious effect on the health and safety of the employees. On August 1, the Impartial Arbitrator found the Authority to be correct in its actions and denied the Union's request that the schedules be found to be in violation of the collective bargaining agreement. They were then put into effect and have operated as expected."
Just thought someone might be interested...
David
Vive le difference! ;-)
Only on the #7 Flushing Line. The rest of the IRT is only 10 car and therefore 510'.
I'm sure some trains were "stored" in Jamaica overnight and on weekends. I wonder if the D-types also ran there, given that from 1955 to 1961 the Brighton line covered that route.
And of course, R1-2s on the Sea Beach in 1931.
Problems of using contract numbers to describe equipment.
But the point is they didn't route them through, saving tunnel space.
Of course, the purest (and least successful) implementations of the IND theory were in Queens and Brooklyn. The way the AA ran was nothing novel anyway. Both IRT East and West Sides lines have locals which don't leave Manhattan and expresses which do.
What's so odd about that? It happens again at 47/50, 42, and 34 on 6th Avenue. Arguably there are five consecutive "express" (all four tracks) stops: those three, plus 7th Ave and 59th Street. Also, West 4th, Broadway-Lafayette, and 2nd Avenue.
It was a collosal mistake.
I disagree. I admire the effort on the IND planners to channel passenger traffic via "hardware" rather than "software". If that policy is going to be followed anywhere, it's going to be here in New York. We do have the population density to look beyond the classic commuting patterns. And this should be encouraged.
On Queens Blvd, the idea of all local track trains staying out of Manhattan doesn't seem to be all that bad of a design. Given sufficient TPH, (and "tripper" type runs, that is, trains that start at various express stations rather than all expresses going to the end of the route, like the LIRR does on the Babylon Branch...if this type of service is possible on the subway infrastructure) it adds that much more control to the operations. And doesn't the existence of the many hundreds of local boro bus routes indicate that there are, indeed, many mass transit trips being made in this city that have nothing to do with Manhattan at all?
I still lament the loss of direct Q.B. service from the Crosstown from Brooklyn.
Understood. I was stating my belief that there are other travel patterns within the subway-served boros that indicate a need for service beyond the outer boro into Manhattan scenario. The developments towards maximizing the "hub" status of Downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City, and future redeveloping of Jamaica and other areas seem to be in line with this.
And all these lines possess that.
If anything, every IND line has proved that the IND planners were right about the outer-borough local scheme was correct. On Fulton, the C train runs almost 1/2 as often as the "A" and with shorter trains. I think that it would be better to eliminate the merge delays and just add a few extra A trains. As it stands, many C riders transfer to an A train at Utica already. Just let the C (or H) connect with the "F" somehow, and you could eliminate the delays that force A trains to slow down as they approach Hoyt.
Then, take for example the IND Queens Blvd line. The locals remain undercrowded, while the expresses are packed. This is why the MTA wanted to add 2 super express tracks initially. They knew that the riders would be more likely to use expresses. As it is, they ride to Roosevelt and and transfer to locals there.
You can say that the IND philosophy failed, but all evidence shows that people already do exactly what IND planners predicted: transfer to expresses at the first possible point.
Though an interesting observation, it bears no weight in the discussion. All the A1-A2 means is that there are the local tracks of IND Chaining Line "A". The chaining line is continuous, but the local tracks are not. There is no published indication, even in the "Second System" that any connection between Court Street and Chambers-Hudson Terminal was ever planned.
Another example of discontinuous A1-A2 tracks is on the BMT, where they end at Prospect Park, then reappear on Broadway.
SicTransitGloria discussion of IND local train policy is correct.
On the 6th Av line, B3/B4 merges with B1/B2 north of Bergen...and essentially disappears until 2nd Av. Does this mean that an express was to run from Bergen to 2nd Av by a route different than via Rutgers? I think not.
The sequence goes from K1/K2 467 (west of Grant Avenue) to K1/K2 588 that is near to the Lefferts Boulevard tower, based upon observation, and a few numbers upward towards the stub-end tracks. Ironically, the side walls of the Grant Avenue station show and follow (maybe faded now on view) with the "K1/K2" sequence decreasing eastward in the same manner as that like in the IND division format.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
There is not any mention of a Manhattan extension from Court St in the 2nd system.
yes it was true... The IND proposed a number of new routes,after the Second system lines.
No such plan exists in the 1929 second system 2nd ave line or the 1968 plan. The 1949 plan had an option that integrated the line with the Nassau St loop.
Any truth to the story? Urban legend? Wishful Thinking?
Wrong Third Avenue.
The Big IND station was supposed to be at South Third Street(?) and dog the Broadway line out to Utica, and thence out to the bay via Utica.
The Extra (Local (?)) 6th Avenue Tracks were to extend from Second Avenue (Manhattan) to this S 3rd St. Station in Brooklyn.
Elias
Any extension of the stub terminal at Chambers St/WTC in excess of 25 feet would have landed squarely in the mezzanine of Hudson Terminal.
Disappointing to see this happen to brand-new trains like the M-7.
The last time I rode the subway (7 months ago) the subway crews were pretty good about apologizing for delays. Of course, some PA systems (not all, or even most) sound like you're talking through a sock with your hand over your mouth.
1. The third rail was never shut off.
2. Tunnel Lighting (and you guys thought the East River tunnels were bad) or lack thereof
3. Lack of Stairs (They'd probably have to cross over active tracks to get on to the platforms)
Or how about BeverLY Road/IRT and BeverLEY Road/BMT? Or Woodhaven Blvd-SLATTERY PLAZA?
Slattery Plaza is the intersection of Queens and Woodhaven Boulevards.
No, there's one correct spelling
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Now there's Patriot PAC-3, which does work.
How do you know which plane to shoot down?
Factor this risk into the cost of aviation, and trains start to look real good.
And where do you shoot it down? Make it crash in midtown instead of the World Trade Center?
Larger missiles, like the Navy's Standard SM-2 or the Phoenix missile, have large warheads (100+ pounds of explosive). Often fired two at a time, they can blow a passenger jet into many pieces. The result is that the jet fuel will burn or disperse in the atmosphere,and debris will rain down, not whole sections of jetliner.
Correct.
"Sadly radar guided missiles tend to aim for the middle of the target, and may or may not make actual contact with the target, it may opt for a proximity kill, which would merely incapacitate the plane, leading to a horrific crash wherever it may land. "
Proximity kills are more common with maneuvering targets (fighter planes). A lumbering passenger jet will suffer a direct hit, and even a single 125 pound explosive charge, combined with the effect of hitting a pressurized fuselage, will rip the plane apart.
And what if it's a conventional hijacking, like someone going to Cuba, do you kill over 200 people and give an Emily Litella "never mind", or oops.
And what if it's a conventional hijacking, like someone going to Cuba, do you kill over 200 people and give an Emily Litella "never mind", or oops.
Furthermore, why would someone hijaking a plane to Cuba sieze the controls and then fly it toward a hi-density target?
-Roberft King
If one of you guys really wanted to go to Cuba, it would be easier to fly up here and book a flight out of Pearson in Toronto or Dorval, aaaachooo - pardon me, Pierre Elliot Trudeau in Montreal.
-Robert King
-Robert King
But during the runup to that SARS concert, there were a number of articles in the various newspapers here detailing the Rolling Stones career as a band and the night with the prime minister's wife was one of the things mentioned along with the drug bust.
Seriously, people have been protesting against changing Dorval's name. Personally, I think they should have renamed Mirable the "Pierre Trudeau Airport" and I don't think as many people would have complained about that either - Mirabel's been closed for a few years now!
-Robert King
Mirabel is used for air freight and possibly some charter operations.
I can't wait for that idiot prime minister of ours to retire and I can't wait for the provincial election on October 2nd to occur. And that bumbling mayor of Toronto's retiring and we get to vote for a new one. I can't wait...IT'S POLITICIAN FLUSHING* TIME!!!!!
* Redbirds not included.
-Robert King
The ministry of silly walks salutes ya!
Ah, was he taking pictures?
It isn't possible to get into an aircraft's cabin from the cargo areas, or vice-versa, while the aircraft's in flight. That is why it's okay to carry firearms in checked baggage.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
It is an amazing story. He recreated an old TV commercial, I think. He ought to be on television...
Mark
One would hope he also had several cases of Lysol.
As to the terrorist "threat", the solution is cheap & easy: don't pressurize the cargo sections. This will accomplish two things.
1. It prevents wackos like McKinley from repeating this stunt.
2. It eliminates terrorists as they suffocate at 30,000 feet. All the authorities have to do then is remove the corpse.
The BMT Lines and BMT (Or was it BRT) green & white tile signs that were outside the station. I am told these will be incorporated into the new station entrance.
Large sign showing the lines that run there located just before the turnstiles. How or if this will be placed in the rebuilt terminal I do not know.
The other artifact that still is in place is an old BMT conductors stopping board on the W platform. It hangs over one of the stairways.
My pic is from a different angle, though.
Not being a BMT man I don't know what the B6 stands for. I'll venture a guess in that the BMT had A units, B units, BX units etc and this board shows where a conductor located in a train of 6 B units had to be before opening the doors.
I am sure someout out there will have the answer.
This damned project is seriously cramping my railfanning style.
Stop whining and take advantage of this opportunity!
Hmmmm. Stillwell Avenue Terminal in 2050: Coney Island Spaceport?
--Mark
--Mark
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album42?page=2
I have a total of 544MB of memory cards and two lithium batteries. My limiting factor is the memory cards, as I run out of space on them before the second battery dies. With the 544MB, on the best setting, I can take approximately 285 photos.
In Sussex County has been proposed. The $100 million project would provide five NJ Transit trains per day, with stations at Sparta, Stockholm, Newfoundland, Butler, Pompton Lakes, Oakland, Wycoff, Midland Park, and Hawthorne. At Hawthorne, the trains would continue to Hoboken via the Main Line, with an intermediate stop at the Secaucus Transfer station. The Environmental Assessment has been approved by the federal government, releasing $21.6 million for initial engineering and construction. See the NYS&W Passenger Service Project page for more information, including proposed train schedules.
Here is a supplemental link to the details.
Does anyone know if any supplementary plans or updates have occurred since the start of this idea?
And it will dump more riders into NY-bound trains. That's good - it will increase the pressure to build a new two-track Hudson tube.
Those tracks underwent a major refurbishment some years ago. Before that, they were in very bad shape (impossible to operate on, with trees growing in the trackbed and so on - west of Pompton Junction there was a washout that took a passing siding and part of the main line into the river).
I spotted the refurbishment by accident when it was being done - I was heading up Route 23 by Jorgenson's and spotted a pair of Conrail engines in the woods. I pulled over and headed over, and found a complete work camp. The foreman told me that due to the Conrail phaseout the NYS&W was resurrecting the line and they were prepping it for service, with his crew working in from one end of the line and another coming up from Hoboken.
In the long run it might have been easier to go with new cars than to use redbirds with disintegrating anti-climbers
"Due to mechanical difficulties, train service is temporarily interrupted along the 54th/Cermak Branch of the Blue Line. A bus shuttle is in place making stops at all stations along the 54th/Cermak Branch from 54th/Cermak to Racine.
Service on the O’Hare and Forest Park (Blue Line) branches is not affected."
Not sure what's happening, exactly.
"An empty elevated train derailed this afternoon on the city's Near West Side, shutting down the Douglas Branch of the CTA Blue Line, authorities said.
"The accident occurred about 1:30 p.m. on the Douglas Branch near Harrison Street, CTA spokeswoman Anne McCarthy said. No injuries were reported, but the derailment blocked both tracks of the elevated structure. It was not known when the line may reopen.
"The train was being moved from the CTA maintenance shops at Harlem Avenue and Lake Street on the Green Line to the Blue Line, McCarthy said.
"Shuttle buses are running between the Racine Avenue station and the end of the Blue Line at 54th Street and Cermak Road, she said. Service on the Blue Line's O'Hare and Forest Park branches were not affected by the incident."
I'm heading to Chicago Saturday.
It appears from the picture that the non-revenue train derailed either going onto or coming off of the Pauline connector.
Enjoy your Saturday in our kind of town.
Jim K.
Edgewater
Chicago is...
Due to a sick passenger at Canal, northbound Q and W trains were operating through the tunnel as of about 45 minutes or an hour ago. I was on a diamond-Q that was discharged at DeKalb because it was already on the bridge track. (Good thing the T/O showed up late at Brighton or we would have been stuck on the bridge.)
Rather than cram onto the W across the platform, I walked to the 2 at Hoyt, so I don't know what happened next.
Canal St, Bridge platform takes awhile for EMS to get to, and then they have to locate the customer on the train (most likely either the T/O or C/R was with the customer until EMS arrived).
As a side not there were about 7 R33's Sinagls sitting in ther yard. One was the World Series R33.
Robert
1) Who is primarily in charge of changing the advertisements on the trains?
2) What can happen as to throw the placement of the ads out of schedule?
2. It hard to say, maybe TDI's crew didn't change that poster yet?
An R38 with lead #3960 (signed as a Lefferts) finally trundles up the 207th bound track at 168. Then, we were stuck for a few minutes outside of 207 for a track to open up. We arrive at the terminus, and the next train signal is pointing to the R32 on the opposite track as ours arrived in.
Then about 3 minutes later, a blurred announcement said something about "train to Far Rockaway" (they need to make those announcements better), as the dispatcher's bell dings and the next train signal switches from the R32 to our R38 train that just arrived. Now so much for the confused passengers who thought this train was going to Lefferts (further down the line) but it's actually going to Far Rockaway! I missed it, and waited for the next one...
Not knowing that 5 minutes later, an MTA worker (I don't know if he was a motorman) took out a curved metal rod used to turn the rollsigns and changed the sign from Far Rockaway to Lefferts Blvd. on both signs in the first car. !!!!! After he was done, he said "Do you think we can make it like this?" as the 9 trailing cars still read "Far Rockaway". This train was going to Lefferts now so I stepped off.
Frustrated as can be, I waited for the next train, which was an R32 signed as a Far Rockaway. Now I killed a good 10-15 minutes at 207 for an abstract reason that supposedly led the T/A into doing this. (My railfan trip was to ride the A from terminal to terminal at Far Rockaway)
I hopped on board R32 #3448 and hogged its railfan window all the way to Far Rockaway. (I had to share with a junior once but that was OK) We started at 3:07p and I was thankful at least that I didn't get an R44. We made it to Grant Av. in an hour, and the whole trip took 1 hr. 27 mins. (Is that early, late, or on-time?)
Some peak speeds we reached were 45mph just outside of Nostrand Av. and we inched our way to 45mph on the 3.5 mile stretch to Broad Channel.. and an average of 33mph on CPW.
How does dispatching at 207 (and at all other terminals) work and how can this kind of mixup take place?
Note: The # following the title means this refers to the trip I took on Labor Day.
How ironic, since the R44's would have never had this problem to begin with.
From that perspective, I think it becomes clear why announcements at 207 as to Lefferts or Far Rock aren't considered particularly important.
As to the train being signed incorrectly on 9 or 10 cars, that seems inexcusable. At least put somebody on the train ride down to 168 or so and change the signs as the train rolls along.
Of course, for the 10 months that I rode the A to Far Rockaway, the rule always was -- take the first A that comes. If the weather is nice, wait for a Far Rock train at Rockaway Blvd. If the weather is lousy, wait for a Far Rock train at Euclid. Of course, that was 1988-89, when more things could happen, and usually did. On a number of occasions, I'd get off at Rock Blvd, and then a C would come in with the announcement that it was going to go to B 116 first and then to Far Rock. (via Hammel's Wye -- from your other thread).
CG
How did this take place? What service changes have taken place since then?
There was regular service back about 15-20 years ago during overnight hours. All A trains ran to Lefferts, and a shuttle ran from Euclid to B116 to Far Rock and back to Euclid. This was known as the Rockaway Round Robin.
CG
PRIORITY SEATING
If requested, you must give up this
seat to the elderly or disabled.
The lettering was white and had a white border around it.
It was also 2.5 times the size of an official "Priority Seating" sticker.
Can someone make stickers in their own homes and stick them onto trains when the T/A is off-guard?
By the way, why do all of your posts have "#" in the subject line? Maybe I'm seeing things...
YES.
We'll never forget you, and the pain will be with us always.
1) Is it simply a push of a button? and does this accomodate the track switch shifting from the Lefferts to the Far Rockaway portion of the line?
2) Also, on the way after Rockaway Blvd, I saw a single elevated track merging into our route to the Beaches. Is this track used? If so, for what purpose(s)?
After Rockaway Blvd or after Broad Channel? There is a single track that connect Beach 90 with Beach 67 Streets. Is that what you mean?
I was standing at the S/B platform at 135th st/IRT Lenox in Harlem last night. Waiting for a 2 or 3 train towards Brookyln, I was SHOCKED AT THE SIGHT, of a toddler (no more than two years old), darting from her mother at the S/A booth and ran towards the platform. The kid was just inches away from the platform edge and possible death when I yelled out to the kid to get his attention. Thank goodness the kid backed away safely and the mother seeing this, gets the kid back into her arms.
And there were two women sitting and were closer to the kid than me, they did nothing. Am I the only one that's alert or what? Why did the mother allow the kid to run off and not watch her, it was a good 15 seconds this was unfolding.
Eeesh.
Still, I'd like to think I wouldn't have a letdown of my guard on a subway platform...
I'm just glad your encounter had the ending it did.
CG
The kid darts out behind me to cross the street, and I cassually reach back, grab his arm and hold him as a car zooms by. Mom almost has a heart attack, but I help the kid across the street, as if I made this kind of a save every day.
Well, I knew about the danger, that's why we used to continue to stand on the ground after all of the other vendors went to van type trucks.
Elias
The future is in good hands.
Mark
From what I read, the parent was at the Station attendent booth, presumably asking a question or somthing, when the child ran away from the parent. Kids run away from their parent a lot of times when they see somthing cool, "oh look the ice cream truck, and darts off", I don't think the parent was doing anything neglegent here. *From the way you explained the story. Now I wasn't there, so I'm not gonna rule on anything. However, I do agree parents do need to watch out for their kids at all times.
So if I was not there or if I didn't yell out, then what? Shame on the mother.
And is this shuttle a one-man or two man operation? I boarded R68 #2922 btw.
I was interested in seeing a lot of police officers inside and around the station. Is this normal because of the neighborhood that it's in, or is there extended security in some parts of the Transit Property?
In some cases like the G line which is OPTO on weekends, the T/O must stop at the OPTO marker, while on weekdays when a C/R is being used, then the T/O must stop at the 4 car marker.
Robert
REMEMBER!
This is a 4-car train.
Stop at 6 or S.
(A quick question: How many Redbirds are left? I miss seeing them now.)
wayne
R142 #6681-7080 are on the #5 line
R142 #7081-7180 and #1101-1250 are on the #4 line
R142A #7211-7660 are on the #6 line
R142A #7661-7730 are on the #4 line
Thank you
Incognito
The 2 is said to be keeping 6301-6665, while the 5 has 6666-7040. This inturn will lead to the 4 having 1101-1250, 7041-7180, and 7661-7730.
In the grand scheme of things, the Redbirds on the 7 would be wiped off the mat (ultimately).
A disclaimer: Assignments are subject to change to meet the needs of a service.
-Stef
Or the T/D at Flatbush.
-Stef
When the trainset is broken or has some better place to go.
Also, what mechanism is it to put a "self BIE" within the cab so that the train doesn't go into emergency when he lets go of the throttle? The motorman I rode with did that several times to punch in buttons and look out his door to see the exterior doors close.
Why did one of the platforms need to be vacated early? So that its reconstruction could finish up early, allowing the W to temporarily shift over to it. Otherwise all four platforms would have to be closed at once.
Of course, that means that the new W platform won't be completed until after the others, and the W will occupy the N platform until that happens. The N is projected to be cut back to 86th Street until 2005.
(Why the N and not the W? The W is busier, that's all.)
What I don't understand is why the N doesn't have a bus connection to Stillwell, like the F and Q. Currently it would be the simple matter of extending the F bus a few blocks west. Sure, the N has a connection to the W at New Utrecht, but by that same reasoning, the F has a connection to the W at 4th Avenue (nights and weekends, at least) and the Q has a connection to the W at Atlantic.
It doesn't explain why the N doesn't get a shuttle bus, or even a free transfer. (There are unadvertised free transfers to the F at Avenue X, to the Q at Brighton Beach, and to the W at Stillwell, but not to the N at 86th.)
The F and Q each have more than one station closed on it's route that is affected by the Stillwell reconstruction. So shuttle buses are needed to serve the closed stations. The N has no station closings (86th st is the last stop and the next stop, Stillwell is served by the W) and is served by two bus line, both which can take you to the F. (And the W at 25th Ave if you have Unlimited), so no shuttle bus is necessary.
But I was referring more to access to the stations themselves. The former Stillwell transfers can all be mimicked for free -- except the N. For instance, you can ride the W to Stillwell, exit the system, dip your MetroCard on the B68, ride to Brighton Beach, and swipe back in there, all on a single fare. OTOH, even if you don't mind walking from Avenue X to 86th Street, if you swipe in at 86th, you'll be charged another fare. (I tested it a month or two ago.)
...but it makes passengers boarding at 18th Ave., 20th Ave., Bay Parkway, Kings Hwy and Avenue U do the reverse trip all the way to New Utrecht and catch the W. I guess that's not too bad a situation; still, a direct to Stillwell bus at 86th Street would avoid all that. That extra 20 to 30 minutes this diversion adds to Coney bound travelers from those stations is a bummer.
18th Avenue: B8 to New Utrecht Avenue
20th Avenue: B8 to New Utrecht Avenue or B6 to 86th Street
Bay Parkway: B6 to 86th Street
Kings Highway: B82 to 86th Street or directly to CI
Avenue U: B3 to 86th Street/25th Avenue
I realy don'g get it neither but here's my take on it:
a)Has the lowest ridrship among the four lines that head to Stillwell
b)Transfers at 62 St/New Utrecht and at Pacific St (9 St/4 Av weekends)
c)The F shuttle bus is walking distance from the 86 St station on the N. As you said they could extend the bus but chose not to for whatever reason.
And while the F shuttle bus is running anyway, why not pull it through a few blocks to the N? It's a short walk but it's also a short extension of the bus route.
N Bwy
Sorry Fred, probably none of us will see that. The condition some of those stations will probably take 100 years to fix them. :-P
I wonder if the TA when rehabbing them will restore the concrete work the way it was or what way is cheaper.
The rest of the underground line was built in cut and cover style at the same time as the 63rd Street line was built.
I am presuming it was some follow up the the Meadowlands spur proposal.
Don't have AIM? Download it free @ www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It is quite photogenic west of Broadway Junction also.....
The J Line
Bill "Newkirk"
In a way, you can notice how the line was extended, given the sudden turn in the structure.
East of Queensboro Plaza, the BMT had joint service with IRT. They ran the famous Q cars to Astoria and Flushing, because the Standards would have been too wide for the Astoria and Flushing line stations and trackage.
In 1949, because Unification had taken place, the IRT gained exclusive rights to the Flushing line, and the BMT was given exclusivity for the Astoria line. This enabled them to tear down four of the eight tracks at the Queensboro Plaza station. They also had to shave the Astoria line platforms, so the BMT standards could operate to Ditmars. The Q cars went to the 3rd Ave el, I believe.
Log onto http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel and link to the Memorabilia & Collectibles page for more information or contact Kevin Sanders at (718) 694-5459.
Thank you.
I would like to hook that horn up to my car though, that'd be GREAT! :)
Also, you can send a bid LESS than the "retail" price.
$50 for a number plate??? $30 for a glass EXP sign ($25 for a LOCAL)? $150 for a front route or destination sign/assembly? And of course $300 for that side roll sign assembly.
They got greedy very quickly. While the 2 benches offered on ebay sold, only 1 person bid each time so they didn't get more than the $200.
We may be railfans but we are not crazy. The best thing to do is not to buy from MTA Surplus Materials. Eeventually they will get the idea and bring the prices down to a reasonable level (but then since they are part of a Gov't agency it could be years).
By which time all said materiel will have been tossed in a dumpster.
Eeventually they will get the idea and bring the prices down to a reasonable level (but then since they are part of a Gov't agency it could be years).
Years? The chances of a marked down price is slim to none ;-D.
Besides, I still haven't been on the new MFL cars either.
I'm going to make sure I get whatever they dish out of the old Silverliner II's when those are replaced(i'm hoping a musuem will buy some cars too).
I wonder how much the MTA charges for those spunges on their site. ANyone want to chip in on a box?
What a Person Who Hates the Redbirds would say:
They rust easily, breakdown frequently, some of them still have no working AC, they deserve to be flushed into the Atlantic Toilet. They're nothing compared to the R-32 and the R-62, and now the R-142 have proven that the redbirds are nothing more than rusted Junk! The paint chips both inside and outside, their rollsigns sometimes incorrect, inferior to LED which are easier to see and are correct on their destinations and can display destinations. The speakers don’t work often so you won’t hear anything. They lack door chimes so it poses a hazard, most dragging incidents in the last 5 years involved redbirds. They're safety hazard. They are going and I am glad they are! Let the R-62 and R-142 which will last longer and do better live on. Without sitting next to rusted junk
Task to Subtalkers: Prove This Topic Wrong
--------------------------------------------
Dear "Person Who Hates the Redbirds":
You are not worth giving a rational response.
Sincerely,
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
--------------------------------------------
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
N Bwy
It would happen, after nearly 40 years of providing reliable service on some of the busiest IRT subway lines.
They're nothing compared to the R-32 and the R-62, and now the R-142 have proven that the redbirds are nothing more than rusted Junk!
See above
The paint chips both inside and outside, their rollsigns sometimes incorrect, inferior to LED which are easier to see and are correct on their destinations and can display destinations.
Really? Then when I wait for a 2 or 5, I can tell from the rollsign which train is at a distance. These R142/3 sets have rollsigns with no identity, ugly one-eye red monsters.
The speakers don’t work often so you won’t hear anything.
The announcements on the new cars are outdated, and inaccurate. Do you listen to the announcement on a 2 train and it says you can transfer to the B and D trains at Atlantic Ave when neither train has stopped there since 7/20/01?
They lack door chimes so it poses a hazard, most dragging incidents in the last 5 years involved redbirds.
Same safety feature lacking in the R32 through R40M sets, and earlier you are saying that the Redbirds are "...nothing compared to the R32...", so stop contradicting yourself, praising the R32 but denouncing a safety feature that you overlook on the R32 not having door chimes either.
They're safety hazard.
Elaborate on your statement. If they really are a safety hazard, why did you contact the National Transportation Safety Board and OSHA on this? You had enough time to do this.
Let the R-62 and R-142 which will last longer and do better live on.
Are you going to be around for the next 40 years to see them outlast the redbirds? The BMT standards have been around for 50 YEARS and do you think they will make it that far. Is this your prophecy?
They're safety hazard.
Elaborate on your statement. If they really are a safety hazard, why did you contact the National Transportation Safety Board and OSHA on this? You had enough time to do this.
If that were the case I think they would of been scrapped already and the R142's would of came in sooner.
They're safety hazard.
Elaborate on your statement. If they really are a safety hazard, why did you contact the National Transportation Safety Board and OSHA on this? You had enough time to do this.
If that were the case I think they would of been scrapped already and the R142's would of came in sooner.
The announcements on the new cars are outdated, and inaccurate. Do you listen to the announcement on a 2 train and it says you can transfer to the B and D trains at Atlantic Ave when neither train has stopped there since 7/20/01?"
Yes, but that can be corrected easily enough - and it is the TA's responsibility to do so. The crew of a Rustbird with a bad PA system will never be able to give you any kind of announcement.
Mark
For instance:
Rollsigns are easier to read than electronic signs. They display all the relevant information at once and they use NYCT's trademark bullets (which also appear on maps, station signs, schedules, and pretty much everywhere else) for route numbers.
Redbird announcements are more accurate than R-142 announcements. No Redbird C/R is announcing services that haven't run in two years.
Redbird seats are comfortable. R-142 seats are awkwardly shaped.
Redbird straps are easily reachable by short straphangers. Short passengers on R-142's are forced to vie for a small number of vertical stanchions, which are invariably already occupied, if not by hands than by a leaner.
It's possible to safely pass from car to car on a train of Redbirds with fewer than three hands, and passengers can pass the conductor's position.
R-142 lighting is unnecessarily bright. It's a train, not an operating room.
R-33ML air conditioning (I can't vouch for the R-36WF, I'm afraid) is better than R-142 air conditioning. Yes, really. The R-142 fans are stronger, so people sitting in the right places will feel a cool breeze, but move towards the ends of the cars and they're notably warmer.
R-142's have decent sound insulation for the benefit of those on the train, but for those waiting outside the train, they're obnoxiously loud, both while in motion (they make a crashing sound I've never heard from any other subway car) and while stationary (thanks to the stronger fans).
R-142's sway violently. Redbirds may shake and rumble, but they don't lurch from side to side. (Unfortunately, the R-36's do lurch forward. The R-33's don't.)
Do you classify any of those as "railfan reasons"?
The Redbird haters seem to be composed primarily of 7 riders. That makes sense, since the World's Fair cars never got the overhaul they deserved. The WF cars have lots of problems not shared by their mainline cousins.
The R-142 lights are no brighter than lights on other cars, the light covers however aren't decayed and yellow and the white interior color creates the illusion of brightness.
In any case, if such brightness discourages sleeping, then I'm all for it. Homeless people belong on the street where they're out of everyone's way and the stench is dissipated into the air.
Redbird straps are easily reachable by short straphangers. Short passengers on R-142's are forced to vie for a small number of vertical stanchions, which are invariably already occupied, if not by hands than by a leaner.
...are annoying and swing from side to side, there is also a limited number for any given space as opposed to effectively unlimited bar space.
R-142 lighting is unnecessarily bright. It's a train, not an operating room.
The R-142 lights are no brighter than lights on other cars, the light covers however aren't decayed and yellow and the white interior color creates the illusion of brightness.
In any case, if such brightness discourages sleeping, then I'm all for it. Homeless people belong on the street where they're out of everyone's way and the stench is dissipated into the air.
R-33ML air conditioning (I can't vouch for the R-36WF, I'm afraid) is better than R-142 air conditioning.
R-142's sway violently.
This is the first time I've heard of any of this.
San Francisco has rehabilitated many PCC streetcars for their Market St. to Fisherman's Wharf line. I would have liked to see those streetcars on Coney Island Ave, McDonald Ave, etc. in New York, and on Pico Blvd, Jefferson Blvd, etc. in Los Angeles.
I would have loved seeing some Standards,Triplexes and Lo-V's in service, if they could have been updated to present safety standards.
Just wait a decade or two. The R142s will then provide such a link.
It's like my car. In 1997 I really wanted a well maintained used car, but at that time the price of used cars was inflated relative to new cars. So I bought a new Saturn wagon. Another year or two, and I'll have just what I wanted.
The key is "fully restored".
I want a far with a fuel cell and 100 miles per gallon. Better yet, I don't want a car, just the ability to rent one at a decent price and fair location whenever I want to go out of town.
: )
That's because you've never driven a car. You have been deprived. I know some great twisty backroads with no cops.
Where do you get this?
It's obvious. If you've ever driven a car you'd know it can be fun and in at least some instances, you'd choose it over a teleporter.
A horse can be fun too, most people don't commute on horses anymore.
--Mark
Ack.
No, cars like the LoVs, the Standards, the Triplexes and the R-1/9s are what the cable cars are to San Francisco and the St. Charles Streetcars are to New Orleans. The Redbirds are the boring, decrepit, uninspired pieces of crap that replaced those cars.
I might agree with you if they were painted their original blue and white. And instead of Yankee & Met insignias have the name of states. I remember always seeing the blue and white car with the big letters "STATE OF KANSAS" along the side.
When the Low V's were still running I usually only took the subway with my grandparents who were strictly BMT people so I was only used to Standards & Arnines. (I don't really remember the D-Types but at that age probably confused them with Arnines) When I started riding on my own and railfanning the only Low V's were in the Bronx on Third Avenue. As I loved the old pre-war stuff I hated the IRT, their trains were too modern. A real subway in my mind had to have wicker seats and ceiling fans and had to have that distinctive motor sound. That's why I also hated the R-10's and why even now I love old trolleys but am not a PCC fan. I guess I subconsciously kept that mindset as I really have no real sentimental feelings for the redbirds & couldn't care less that they are retiring. To be honest, I don't even run to ride the R-17 6688 at Branford.
But the old stuff are different stories. I would've paid triple to ride on the Arnines on the MOD trip if I had to. And I try to ride 1689 whenever it's brought out. And although it will probably never happen, I pray they will renovate Standard 2775!!!
Had they not been carbon steel I guarantee you that they would still be in service. I think that's the REAL reason.
You can take pieces home with you.
breakdown frequently,
Gives you something to post on Subtalk
some of them still have no working AC
It makes you tough and provides a FREE Jewish Workout session
they deserve to be flushed into the Atlantic Toilet.
Unless they can time travel to the 80's the Atlantic Toilet went away with new enviornmental regulations.
They're nothing compared to the R-32 and the R-62
No, they display much more character.
now the R-142 have proven that the redbirds are nothing more than rusted Junk!
They have made me appriciate the Redbirds more.
The paint chips both inside and outside,
You can now match the colour of your railfan room without needing to get "paintchips" from the store.
their rollsigns sometimes incorrect,
You know where the train is going anyway.
inferior to LED which are easier to see
That's definitly arguable.
and are correct on their destinations and can display destinations.
Unless the crew mis-sets or forgets to set them.
The speakers don’t work often so you won’t hear anything.
the crews make unintelligable anouncements anyway.
They lack door chimes so it poses a hazard, most dragging incidents in the last 5 years involved redbirds.
It teaches people not to try to barge their way into a train when it is full and/or the doors are closing.
They're safety hazard.
They provide some much needed natural selection.
They are going and I am glad they are!
You're just a retrophobe.
Let the R-62 and R-142 which will last longer
Guess again, they're French built.
The MBTA doesn't have a no photography rule.
Then get a PATH photo permit.
Is it possible for an ordinary person to get one?
No. That's my point - PATH has a no-photography policy; MBTA does not.
The one your dentist put in?
I suspect the first car will be filled with politicians, bureaucrats, and camera crews.
And Chapter 11 Choo Choo and Papa Choo Choo and anyone else that is strong willed.
I think I read on another forum that 11/23 is the date? Can anyone here confirm or deny that?
Also he says somebody will no doubt leak it here in advance of the opening, so stay tooned.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry , that just caught me funny .
Papa R143 wouldn't be interested :(
I'm working on Baby R143 , but she's a girl so ----
Mark
There also are a few named after towns in Rockland County, presumably because commuters from those communities often go to Hoboken and then catch PATH.
Not all all of them are named, IIRC. None of the PA-4 cars are named, IIRC.
UP paid the price a few years ago when they consolidated their dispatching to Omaha.
Elias
Say for example: Queensboro master will hook up to the center by fibre, and then they will control everything QBMT does. The problem is that QBMT doesn't have contol over a whole lot, although they have plenty of indication.
The 2000 horsepower locomotives come to the SRNJ from the St Lawrence & Atlantic (Quebec), and were formerly owned by CN. They are #3578 and #3579.
Agreed!
The spider is to the left of this scene, and a couple hundred yards in the distace.
Rockaway Blvd
Define "accessable."
Why?
wayne
This list of R-types indicates that an R-55 was supposed to be for passengers but doesn't specify anything specific.
--Mark
Anyway, it had been very cold that week and when I left the movie shortly after 12 it was already about 3 degrees. I was staying at the Merchandise Mart-Holiday Inn (my room had a view of the former CNW terminal throat trackage!) and I knew that the "L" that serves Merch Mart, the Brown Line, had just stopped running for the nite. I wanted to make a stop about halfway to the Mart (pick up some microwavables at a 7-11) so as an ex-cab driver/dispatcher I figured a taxi would get pretty expensive. Anyway, part of the fun of being in Chicago in December was walking around freezing in cold like we very seldom experience in NY! So I took the Blue Line to Lake and walked from there to the Merchandise Mart...with a stop midway at the 7-11.
Here's the point though (finally). The Blue Line train and station at Lake was packed. So was downtown Chicago. Hey it was bitter cold but it was also FRIDAY NITE!!! The bars, the restaurants, clubs, the cinema, all were still jumping at 12 o'clock. It seemed senseless that the Brown Line had just shut down for the night!! And worse than that, in NY and Philly, when they close lines (for budget reasons or maintenance) they have bustitution. A substitute bus that runs directly under or over the effected train line making the same stops. The CTA doesn't do that for the Brown Line I discovered. To get a bus to Merchandise Mart I would've (as I remember) had to take the Blue Line AWAY from downtown, take a roundabout bus ride and still have to walk the last couple blocks.
For me, the walk across the Chicago River bridge (on Adams?) was worth it. Moonless nite, bitter cold, the Chicago skyline looming up. It was like a movie come to life! Unforgettable!
From either one to the Merchandise Mart would have been about a seven dollar cab ride, including tip. And most Chicagoans would have taken the cab.
The 600 N Michigan theatre is also only about a 15 minute walk from the Merchandise Mart; I can't imagine why you'd take a train there - it would be two stops south on the Red Line from Grand, transfer to Blue at Washington, take one stop to Clark/Lake on the Blue. It would have taken probably 20 minutes to do the walking and transfers and waiting to get that done. From the Esquire, add one stop on the Red Line because you'd have come from the Chicago stop.
The reason the Brown Line stops just past midnight is that the Red Line run 24 hours and its Grand stop is only four half-length blocks (actually 1/4 mile) east of the Merchandise Mart Brown Line stop and one block north. Until recently there wasn't much going on at night west of the Brown Line. But then again, a couple years before your visit, the Brown Line didn't even go to the Loop (it stopped at Belmont so people could transfer to the Red) after about 9pm any night, so service is improving. Some of the reason, too, it stops going to the Loop shortly after midnight is to reduce noise in the residential neighborhoods it travels through.
In fact, the area north of the Merchandise Mart and west of the Brown Line was pretty much a no-mans land of warehouses, industrial design shops and empty lots with one or two apartment buildings until the last seven years or so. Now it's a whole new neighborhood with thousands (I'm not kidding) of new condos and apartments, new office space, new restaurants and new clubs. There are still design studios and empty lots, but the empty lots are becoming fewer and further between for the most part.
I probably would have walked - it's not much (if any) less walking to take the subway for your route. Plus I don't really like the Grand Station (did you see the resident rat while you were there?)
I have to admit, though, that a couple years ago I took my then-girlfriend to Paris and stayed about 1/2 mile from the Eiffel Tower. I insisted on taking the Metro everywhere, and we even took it to Trocadero Square, across the river from the Tower. When she realized how close we were (we could have walked) she yelled at me for not just walking up the Champ de Mars and across the river with her! :-)
Seriously, I looked at a CTA map prior to posting this and the closest bus line to the Merchandise Mart from State is the 65 on Grand. That's still several blocks north of Kinzie, the street the Mart is on. Another thing, there is a connection at State & Lake between the Blue Line and the Green Line (and the Brown if it had still been running). You wouldn't have to take the Red Line to get from the Blue to the Brown, would you? Also, I recall a question I had at the time which possibly you can answer. When I changed from the Green (or Brown) L at State & Lake to the Blue Line subway I was using a 5-Day Visitors Pass so I just "swiped in" at each turnstile. How do you connect for free at State & Lake if you're a cash-paying rider? Or can you?
To end on a positive note -Two things about CTA I really liked. The push-button heaters they have on the L platforms. Those suckers worked great! Especially the one at Western Avenue (on the...Red Line?). After spending about an hour freezing my butt off watching the Metra evening rush at BNSF's Western Avenue station I NEEDED heat! Secondly, my Visitors Pass did not work after the first swipe at O'Hare on my way into the Loop. So for the rest of my time there I had to go to the booth at every station and ask the attendent to check the date and let me in. Now this might sound kinda strange, but what I will always remember was how courteous and nice all the attendents were. Despite the fact that, each and every time they had to leave their booth and try the card themselves (as per CTA regulations according to several of the attendents). As a transit buff it really made me feel good about CTA.
But, when cash was accepted, you would ask the station attendent for a special State/Lake transfer, which was free. I think they may have automated the transfer process at some point but I didn't make that transfer often so I'm not sure on the exact process, just the basic method.
You can transfer between any of the Blue, Orange, Brown, Purple and Green Lines at Clark/Lake because there is an overpass over the "L" tracks.
You can transfer between the Red Line to/from the Green or Brown or Purple or Orange Lines at State/Lake, but there is no overhead transfer so your options between the elevated lines at that station are limited to whichever lines share tracks. Green-Oak Park and Brown share the outside track and Green-63rd/Ashland/Cottage Grove and Purple and Orange share the inner track.
I don't quite understand your question about the Red Line and getting from the Blue to the Brown Lines. During the hours the Brown Line goes to the Loop, you can transfer for free at Clark/Lake between the Blue Line and the Brown Line directly, or at State/Lake from the Red Line to the Brown Line directly, or at Washington or Jackson from the Red Line to the Blue Line directly.
During the hours (after midnight) that the Brown Line stops at Belmont, you would either have to take a bus from the Blue Line to the Brown Line, or you would have to transfer from the Blue Line to the Red Line in the subway and then ride the Red Line to Belmont to transfer to the Brown Line.
I'm glad you had a positive experience with the station attendants - I have, too. They are usually easy to get along with in my experience. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not too many.
If you were watching the BNSF, then the Western "L" stop you were at was almost certainly the Western stop on the Blue-54/Cermak(aka Douglas) Branch. There are five "L" stops on Western. One on the Brown Line, one on the Orange Line and one on each of the three Blue Line branches. The 35/Archer stop on the Orange Line is also basically yet another stop on Western because it's just about a block off of Western Avenue.
One thing though, I did not have a camera. But I did see others there with digital cameras taking pictures, where are the pictures?
I know there are alot of rail photographers on this site, so how about some photos?
I can't get a direct link to the article, but take this link to Google News and type in "Heru Ptah" which is the man's name.
Type in "Heru Ptah"
I am noticing that there is such a sentimental value I am feeling in these last months of the birds?
Also when will the birds be all off the 7 Years end?
Thanks
My first subway ride was on a 7 R36.
"Redbird Sandwich" I'm thinking..heh.
... and no sooner that we clear away from those two trains, right infront of the RFW (not more than 6 feet infront)
there comes a real live bird (white belly, red/dusted wings in the
shade of red)
whom "cuts" in front of our express and proceeds to fly-fly-fly
in front of us at RFW eye-level (without getting hit) three quarters the way
to the next station...
The view, looked like train was chasing the bird with red wings...
He was 6 feet in front of us and I could think of no better analogy
than that "We were chasing a (red)bird that was escaping from our reach".
was: 8/8/03
Ah, kneeling on the seats looking out the windows. For some reason, I always did that when the consist was running under the Steinway Tunnels. Duh, not much of a view but the red pipe always caught my interest. For some reason, I also thought that there was a 3rd track somewhere. Ah, the trouble of my youth. :) Would a 3rd track in there be feasible today for layups, perhaps? I'd guess not.
If anything, I'm happy with the changes the 7 is currently undergoing. The various paint jobs, the rehabitation projects, the reconstruction of Corona Yard. Ah...
If, for instance you wanted to set up the E Train your structure would look like this:
---Program Files
-----BVE
-------Railway
---------Object
-----------nycta-e (contains all of the scenery files, etc)
---------Route
-----------nycta-e (contains the E (Queens Bound).RW file)
---------Sound
-----------E (contains various wav files)
-------Train
----------R32 (contains files for operation of the R32 trainset)
For further help I would try the following website:
BVE Helper Website
Once you get everything setup correctly it really does work well.
Let me know which route you downloaded and I'll take a look to see if there's anything extra you need to be doing. Luckily some routes install themselves to the proper places so nothing needs to be done.
I've done that a few times before but always had it corrected.
Except in Italy.
Shift-7="/"
Shift-6="&"
Even if you ignore the fact that a CPW-Queens line can't be done, I doubt anyone would ride a 207th St - Jamaica Center train, even if it ran express.
Hey... that might be the solution to the overcrowded expresses on QB!
Long ride - but possible :-)
I knew someone would point that one out! Grrr :-P
Any advice on what some of the best tube lines are that are surface or elevated? Unfortunately the tube map doesn't designate which stations and lines are above ground. I plan on taking the Docklands Light Rail since that is all above ground... and automated with no motorman or conductor.
Is it worth it to travel on the Tram? Unfortunately, it only connects with the Underground at one station... and you have to add an extra fare to your Travelcard.
Gregg
nh153@mail.com
In general there are two types of line in London, tube and sub-surface. As the names suggest, the tube lines tend to be deeper (and therefore they have fewer outdoor sections - indeed the Victoria and Waterloo & City Lines don't have any). Having said that, there are some good bits on the outer ends of most tube lines.
The sub-surface lines are:
- Circle Line
- District Line
- East London Line
- Hammersmith & City Line
- and of course the Metropolitan Line
The tube lines are the rest.
Specifically fun bits are:
1) The Hammersmith & City Line from Paddington (Bishop's Road) to Hammersmith (Met). This is the closest you'll get to an El.
2) The Metropolitan Line from Finchley Road to any outer terminus (I'd go for Amersham - main line trains to Marylebone also stop there). NB Current Met service plan:
- 6tph Aldgate to Uxbridge (all stops)
- 4tph Baker St to Watford (non-stop from Finchley Rd to Harrow)
- 2tph Baker St to Amersham (non-stop from Finchley Rd to Harrow and from Harrow to Moor Park)
- 2tph Chalfont & Latimer to Chesham
3) The Northern Line from Highgate to Mill Hill East to High Barnet, also the outer part of the Edgware Branch.
4) The District Line, several sections, my favourite is the Richmond Branch, followed by the Wimbledon Branch.
Unfortunately the tube map doesn't designate which stations and lines are above ground.
It would look EXTREMELY complicated if they did do that!
Is it worth it to travel on the Tram?
I personally don't think so (but then I think it's a pile of crap compared to the proper 3rd-rail electric trains that used to operate on those lines). You might like it - some people do.
It has the added disadvantage of going nowhere that interesting. Croydon's a dump, Wimbledon's not that great, New Addington or whatever it's called is in the middle of nowhere and Beckenham could even make Croydon look nice.
If you want to go somewhere vaguely nice South of the Thames, get a train out of Waterloo to Kingston, Richmond* or Epsom.
* yes, I know the District Line goes here too, but it's very slow.
Unfortunately, it only connects with the Underground at one station...
Wimbledon - and it takes all day to get there on the District Line.
You should try using real trains if you want to ride that blasted tram. Your travelcard will be valid on them in the right zones.
Wimbledon - go to Waterloo station - most trains will stop at Wimbledon - the ones that don't will tend to leave from higher platform numbers. The train will probably be going to Dorking, Epsom, Guildford (via Epsom, Cobham or Woking), Kingston (via Wimbledon, but NOT via Richmond), Chessington South or Hampton Court.
Mitcham Junction - go to Victoria station (platforms 9+) - get any train that terminates at: Epsom, Leatherhead, Guildford, Dorking, Horsham (via Epsom) or Sutton. Alternatively the slow Thameslink trains stop there. A few trains in the Rush Hour run from London Bridge.
West Croydon - various trains from Victoria (platforms 9+) and London Bridge (platforms 8+) (trains to Epsom Downs (the station in the middle of nowhere halfway between Epsom and Banstead) all stop there).
East Croydon - various trains from Victoria (platforms 9+) and London Bridge (platforms 8+).
Beckenham Junction - various trains from Victoria (platforms 1-8) and Blackfriars.
The companies you will encounter are:
- South West Trains (everything out of Waterloo)
- South Central Trains (Half of London Bridge and half of Victoria)
- Thameslink (things that pass through Farringdon)
- Connex (Blackfriars, Cannon St, London Bridge, Charing X, the other half of Victoria)
and you have to add an extra fare to your Travelcard.
Only if you buy a crappy Zones 1-2 travelcard. If your planning on doing any serious railfanning, you will want a Zones 1-6 travelcard which will cover everything up to the Greater London boundary, including Croydon and its tram.
You may know that two of NYC's major East River bridges (Williamsburgh and Manhattan) carry subway traffic. And the A line to the Rockaways in Queens is especially breathtaking, traveling over viaducts in the middle of Jamaica Bay near Kennedy Airport. You can see shacks on the water with crab traps and row boats.
On the other hand, a few lines are entirely underground, both in Manhattan and the outer boroughs (B, C, D, E and R).
And as you noted, a Travelcard does entitle me to also use trains in the proper zones. I'll keep in mind, the Underground can be very slow compared to conventional trains if you're going into the suburbs of London.
At North Dulwich, take a train to East Croydon (four per hour on the current timetable). Tramlink is quite fun, and Croydon has the best shopping in London away from the West End. Trams to New Addington stop right outside East Croydon station and go through quite a spectacular tunnel, but you don't really want to go to New Addington, so get off and double back as soon as you are through the tunnel. Back in Croydon take a tram to Elmers End, and from here take a train to Lewisham. The Docklands light railway will take you to Greenwich (another tourists' favourite) Docklands, and back to London. You are probably looking at four hours of travelling if you don't dawdle, so leave early if you want to stop off anywhere. Only visit Stratford or Beckton if you have masochistic tendencies.
Highlights of the Underground (pun not intended) include Chalfont to Chesham, whether the train winds its way round the side of a surprisingly high steep hill, and Mill Hill East, whose high viaduct dates from when this was a steam line, the main line to Edgware. Both District Line river crossings are on bridges, but for anything more spectacular you need to go 300 miles north to Newcastle upon Tyne and travel on the Tyne and Wear Metro.
PS - as an ex Wimbeldonian (Womble) - I take exception to call the place with a common / 18th Century village and the Lawn Tennis Association as a "dump" ! - Tooting yes !!!!
Rather a freudian slip there...
as an ex Wimbeldonian (Womble)
Overground, underground...
Hey, it's inaccurate - the Underground's overground in Wombledon!
and the Lawn Tennis Association
You cannot be serious. You guys are the pits of the earth. ;-)
a "dump" ! - Tooting yes !!!!
My only view on Tooting was out of a Northern Line window. It seems to have a perfectly average couple of platforms...
Even I haven't bothered with the Wimbledon/Sutton loop. Life is too short for the Brighton's pisspoor attempts to invade the territory that is rightly the South Western's!
Nice open-cut station IIRC (I've only once managed to ride that line - on one of the two trains a day that run Ldn Bridge - Tulse Hill - Epsom).
I've just thought of something - if Gregg likes Els, a SLL train (Ldn Bridge (LL) to Vic (LBSC) via Peckham Rye) would be a good one!
and Croydon has the best shopping in London away from the West End.
I'm sure people in Kingston would beg to differ...
Trams to New Addington stop right outside East Croydon station and go through quite a spectacular tunnel
A line on which you can imagine that you're on a Fast Charing X to Tonbridge via Elmer's End (or for the serious fantasists Brighton via Elmer's End and Uckfield).
Only visit Stratford or Beckton if you have masochistic tendencies.
Beckton is masochism. Stratford is easy - real train to Liverpool St or Central line to a cross-platform transfer to the District at Mile End.
and Mill Hill East, whose high viaduct dates from when this was a steam line, the main line to Edgware.
And these can be combined by riding the 221 or 240 buses in between those two stations.
Both District Line river crossings are on bridges
And on the Wimbledon Branch you also cross the LSWR Windsor Lines pretty soon afterwards. And if you look towards London along the Windsor Lines, you will see the remains of the flyover LSWR trains used to use to run Waterloo-E Putney-Wimbledon.
but for anything more spectacular you need to go 300 miles north to Newcastle upon Tyne and travel on the Tyne and Wear Metro.
Which is quite a nice ride up the ECML out of King's Cross.
Of course, for the masochists, find a St Pancras to Sheffield (or Leeds City) train then ride a XC service to NCL.
OK, Kingston has a John Lewis, but Croydon is vast. Just about every shop you could want is there somewhere. More people travel to Croydon than from there these days.
Stratford is fine until you leave the station, then it becomes an area for masochists. Avoid.
And more importantly Bentall's.
I'll stand by the REAL County Town of Surrey any day. That imposter Guildford's so third rate the Queen wouldn't give them a charter even after the Archbish gave them a Bish.
More people travel to Croydon than from there these days.
I just see Croydon as an extremely slow route to London Bridge. I'd much rather ride through North Dulwich or even do the Waterloo - Waterloo East transfer.
Having said that, I've not got further than the platform of West Croydon station for years. I was tempted when one Sunday evening I was trying to get from Chichester to Epsom to walk from East Croydon to West Croydon, but I decided to change at Clapham Junction instead.
(Yes, I do know about changing at Horsham - which was what I planned to do - but then I noticed after Ford that the train was going via Hove!)
Stratford is fine until you leave the station
Ah... East London...
Avoid.
I tend to avoid everything East of the City North of the River. I'm not really too interested on places that look like they should be in Kent either, but at least Greenwich is nice. I'm told Woolwich and Lewisham are quite all right towns these days, but I've never felt the urge to visit either of them.
Simon
Swindon UK
This is going to be the end of Robert(N/E T/O) and the begining of Robert(Queens Div. T/O).
Robert
-- So what good would you have been hanging around your old job? Queens needs you! Welcome aboard!
Sunday: G OPTO, 3 trips
Monday: G, 4½ trips + put-in
Tuesday: open, no job yet
Wed/Thur: RDO
Friday: R from 95, at least 2 trips and maybe shuttles
Saturday: G OPTO, 3 trips
My friend, IMO you could not have done any worse with the jobs that you have picked. You should've stayed in the North. At least there you would've still had a Conductor.
As for the trip for my jobs you right about most of them.
Sunday: G OPTO, 3 Trips all to Church Ave Relay, pay 9:30+
Monday: G, 4 trips all to Court Sq. with a Put In and a Lay Up at Church Ave. This is why I Start and End a Kings Highway F.
Tuesday is still up in the air but it looks like I will be on the R out of Cont.
Friday: R from 95. Two trip no Shuttles
Saturday: G OPTO, 3 trips. they change the Schedules around and added more jobs to Sunday. This jobs has almost 1hour WAA during the day and pay 9:00+.
I don't mind being OPTO, I did the G 3 picked ago. Hell I was a B/O before this for over 5 years, and that OPTO+ (Three jobs in one) all the time. These jobs give me more brakes that the ones I had 3 pick ago. Also I am getting off earlier then the last few pick on the Weekends this is a good thing to. So I guess it's how you look at it. I know that I am still a Rookie T/O and I won't see better jobs for at least 3 more years, so I took the best for what I needed.
Robert
Congratuations!!
The Greenpoint Scoot shouldn't be all that bad. You're just running empty trains all day ;^)
I wouldn't say empty. I'll be on the G on Saturday going to work and back from Greenpoint to Court Sq.
Congrats to you and your wife on your expecting railfanner in March.
Robert
Robert
I missed the pick by about a week. It's becoming so frustrating.
(Incidentally, does it run SB on the local or on the express?)
It should go to Church all the time. Maybe they could put a bathroom in there. I'd never make it as a T/O. Too much coffee.
Well I can certainly understand that. As long as it works for you, but you couldn't get anything better on Friday? Oh well, gotta take what they give you.
BTW, on that last one, how did THAT happen? Lol, good luck.
Good luck with the new pick.
Robert
Robert
a job still open as a straight pick!
Robert
--Mark
Robert
Robert
I'll be looking for you when I come back to NYC in a few months.
...gleefully taunting Upper West Siders to this day. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I think that honor goes to the Arwons... :)
:-) Andrew
What, is that Marty's new nickname? :)
But I still respect him greatly - and the Arnine wasn't a fair shake for him with the stands being reversed and all from his Luciano Limo. Heh.
P.S. I passed on your message to Larry H. ...he wasn't impressed
Jimmy :D
P.S. Shouldn't your handle be: ftraintobrooklyn
BMTman, best of luck on the test !
Maybe it's good clean fun, but some these comments the Brasses can take foul...
;)
But if I were a TA employee (and we remember a MTA email addy
was posted in WESTCODE's inaugural post) If I were a TA employee
and 2 come posting on a board where Superiors read and lurk,
I'd watch my comments with a tighter belt...
Advice, not Ridicule. :)
Just remember -NOT- to open up the back 5 at South Ferry, pops.
Paul
Yeah, cause Ozzy might fall out the train into the next tunnel and get hit by a 5 train. LOL.
Best of luck.
Being a SF fan, I'd follow Ozzy out, too.... all until the "get hit" part.
New Jersey jokes may now commence.
Given that the Newark plan is the philantropic darling of a (soon to be embittered) Nets and Devils owner, it doesn't sound good for the Meadowlands. And given that Senator John Corzine, leading a group trying to buy the Nets for New Jersey, is a Democrat and thus unlikely to screw Newark, there doesn't appear to be an alternative.
Except on Long Island, where there are offers on the table from the Charles, Wang the owner of the Islanders, and Bruce Ratner, the Brooklyn developer. If Wang would agree to the Brooklyn site (since Ratner's intesest is Brooklyn real estate he wouldn't agree to the Nassau site) and they combined forces, this could really happen. It wouldn't be in Nassau or Suffolk, but it would be right over the Long Island Railroad and on Long Island. And with two teams sharing the costs, neither Nassau County taxpayers nor New York City taxpayers would have to put up a dime.
New Jersey jokes may now commence.
Given that the Newark plan is the philantropic darling of a (soon to be embittered) Nets and Devils owner, it doesn't sound good for the Meadowlands. And given that Senator John Corzine, leading a group trying to buy the Nets for New Jersey, is a Democrat and thus unlikely to screw Newark, there doesn't appear to be an alternative.
Except on Long Island, where there are offers on the table from the Charles, Wang the owner of the Islanders, and Bruce Ratner, the Brooklyn developer. If Wang would agree to the Brooklyn site (since Ratner's intesest is Brooklyn real estate he wouldn't agree to the Nassau site) and they combined forces, this could really happen. It wouldn't be in Nassau or Suffolk, but it would be right over the Long Island Railroad and on Long Island. And with two teams sharing the costs, neither Nassau County taxpayers nor New York City taxpayers would have to put up a dime.
That's was my observation. The block available is the yard between 5th and 6th Avenues south of Atlantic. It is plenty long, but only 200 feet wide, and the new Boston Garden is 362 feet wide.
The block to the south is occupied by small businesses, small homes in poor condition -- and a couple of small loft buildings converted to apartments. To get it, you'd need eminent domain and a long war. If you did get it, you'd have a good site. Of course, they'd be along war against NIMBYs to again approval even without site assembly issues. You could build pedestrian underpasses right into the station complex at Flatbush and Atlantic.
Maybe 200 feet are enough. The other alternative is to cantilever out over Atlantic Avenue itself.
Oh, well. Life in New Jersey.
Depends on what you go to see. I took my daughers and some of their friends to see a college woman's soccer game with my alma mater Colgate playing Columbia at Baker Field. The setting was spectacular, the weather was perfect, the game was exciting, and we were a couple of rows and 15 feet from the field. The 1/9 train kept going by in the background, with a good view from the top of the stands. The athletes, though not World Cup by any means, were enough better than I ever was an anything to be worth watching, and better looking than those in the male leagues as well. And during halftime, we went out on the field and kicked a ball around. To top it off, Colgate won.
Can't imagine enjoying watching a women's college soccer game on TV nearly as much.
If Wang goes partners with Ratner or anyone else and the team doesn't come to Uniondale, his bargaining position as a developer is weakened.
It wasn't so long ago. Dr J, from Roosevelt. Who was the greatest athlete in the history of Long Island, Julius Erving, Carl Yaztremski, or someone else? I mean growing up on the island, not just showing up there to play the way Jackie Robinson did (he was from California).
And, by the way, Duke Snider was from California, too. So was Don Drysdale, Bruce Edwards, Spider Jorgensen, Wayne Beelardi, Gino Cimoli, and a whole host of other Brooklyn Dodgers. You see, the best baseball players come from my state.
Just because they were born in California we won't hold it against them. :)
Robert Moses thwarted the O'Malley plan - and suggested that the Dodgers move to (quelle irony!) a stadium at Flushing Meadows. That did it. O'Malley gave up on New York's politicians and moved west. The rest is history.
Today, any NYC mayor would kiss O'Malley's posterior if the Dodgers were still here and offered to pay for their own downtown stadium.
But would Moses (like O'Malley, a powerful and devious man with a king-size ego) really have gone through with the plan, even if he could pull it off, or was he just blowing smoke? And was O'Malley just pulling NYC's chain anyway; i.e., did he already have every intention of moving to L.A. (whose Mayor Poulson and city council had been relentlessly and shamelessly courting him since the early 1950's, and had promised him just about everything short of the moon)?
Of course, the real losers in this political game of "chicken" were the NY fans of both the Dodgers and the Giants. (Giants owner Horace Stoneham, who claimed he was going broke and couldn't survive in N.Y. without the local Dodgers-Giants rivalry, was committed to following the Dodgers if they moved to California).
And what if O'Malley HAD gotten his Atlantic Avenue stadium? By the late 1970's or early 1980's might the Dodgers have started making the same complaints about needing a new stadium, and the same threats to move if they didn't get their way, citing the same reasons they had wanted to abandon Ebbetts field in the first place: size, crime, urban decay, inaccessibility to suburban fans arriving by car, etc., etc.? Then the same mess would have started all over again.
THAT one should have been placed in Court St.
I didn't "discover" this film till 1991, by then the r21/22's were passe.
Rectangular drop-sash storm window looks more "appropriate" for gun-toting Mr. Grey
to just DROP DOWN and SHOOT from....
How would that have looked if in fact, it were to be an r17....
Swoosh!! Revolving windowplate (not to mention, narrower!)
I wasn't alive when the 17s were running, but I believe that the top part of the circular window had to be turned to either the left or right. The area around the window was a circular track and when fully opened, the top part of the window would be either inside or behind the "bottom part" of the window.
Ehhh?
Isn't there a (Museum?) RESERVE consist lying around Unionport Yard therein??
You'll eat those dirty words. I very much EXPECT to see an R-26/28/29.
Time to start posting on trains!
Good to see you back.
I wasn't around for the last week or so due to internet issues. Nice to see you again. Cooled down, I see.
In windows explorer, the BVE folder there should be a "Railway" and "Train" subdirectory. Double click the train one.
Let's say the route your using uses the R36 train, there should be a folder that says R36(on mine it says R36_t). That maybe the problem.
Now go back to the main bve folder. And go into the Railway folder, look for the route file(ie Flushingline.rw), if not here double click the "route" folder. Sometimes the route files seem to be put anywhere.
Open the .rw or .csv file with wordpad.
A few lines down(liek 7 at the most) is where the train is determined.
should look similiar to but doesn't have to be exactly like this:
if the extention is .rw on the file:
File=R36_T ; R36 IRT Train (Redbird) USE THIS
;File=R36_F ; R36 IRT Train (Redbird)
;File=R36_G ; R36 IRT Train (Redbird)
if the extrention to the file is .csv then it will be more like:
train.folder R36_t
Now ALL you have to do is ONE thing. :) make sure the folder the train is in and the file that says matches up exactly *without* the semi-colon(;) in front of it.
So if your train is the R36_t, it should either say
file=R36_t or train.folder R36_t depending on what the file extension was.
I made this sound more complicated than it is because I wanted to be detailed. If this still doens't work, IM me at Jeffyl00b.(two zeros not o's). This problem really is a rare occurance so you shouldn't be doing this too often.
Jeff W
What it really means is select a route. Sometime the routes are in different folders which is your prob.
In the Upperleft file box, if there's folders with the route names under the open "route" folder in a casacading order, there's some. (Ie "circle line" or "Nyct-2"). Double click that and a file in lower box will appear and u can click that and start and it'll run.
Also the flushing line on my machine installed in a folder before where BVE opens, so just double click Railway folder, and they will pop up. Internationally I've only had the 7 and the G do this, the rest are usually set up like the former example.
It's just a big windows explorer like selection box. Let me know what route you downloaded if it didn't work and I'll look into it and see what exact instance is going on.
C:\PROGRAM FILES\BVE\Train\R36_t\Train.dat: error 53: File not found
C:\PROGRAM FILES\BVE\Train\R36_t\Panel.cfg: error 53: File not found
Normally when I get error messages, I just hit ignore, because it means something small is missing, like a tree or antoher object, but the two you have is because the train could be missing.
When you clicked the route, did a box pop-up and say "The Train is not found" and the bottom right had no picture and train description?
I guess:
First do what you did before, and click on ignore when the errors pop up, and if you see the route, and a dashboard, your in good shape and are all set.
I doubt that's going to happen so.....
GOTO:
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/bvesite/mta_r36trainset.html
click on the picture to download.
-If you did that already, trying it again now I found a problem in the winzip, it installs it into the WRONG directory.
Unzip it again, double click the R36trainsetinstall.exe and when it shows the directory, after "/train" type in /R36_t
That will 100% do it and make it work. The problem was it doens't create the proper folder when it installs the train for you. I'll try to email those guys and tell them about the problem.
To everyone:
Remember to download the train AND the route. Most companies use the same trains for most routes, so you only need to download the trainset once.
Also, BVE routes are all made by people as hobbies, etc. and aren't professional, so you'll see some peoples routes that look real as life, and others are so so, or okey/good.
That should do it.
Jeff W
Now, I'm at work with no access to the BVE so I have to go by memory. When I click "ignore" I get a cab view of the Times Sq station with no train controls and a message on bottom that says something like "train slid". Now that's by memory so it might not be the exact words. But also, even if I didn't click on the Flushing route or any route, shouldn't any trainset I have in the upper left file box also show in the lower box that you highlight?
What I'd suggest is get after the current offer of the route and ask them what you've got and what to do. It USED to be customary with many of the BVE routes for the author to build a self-extracting fileset with everything preset whereupon you'd simply run the damned thing and it would save out the structure starting at the default \program files\bve folder and that ensured everything was where it belongs. Lately that easy for the end user method seems to have changed ...
click the picture, and download it.
if you have it skip to this step.
opent he file, when you double click the install file, and it asks you to confirm the directory, ADD \R36_t to the end without deleting anything.
That will put the train into the proper subdirectory and your all set.
Now when you select the route, a picture of the train and description will pop up in the lower right box for the flushing or any other route that uses this train.
Apparently the route installs one directory too far back, and the train doesn't install into any special folder. It should work now. I dont' know why the flushing gives me the most problems.
*hoping the five post a day limit expired*
I can't believe that just adding "\R36_t" made it work. I ran the 7 Line and it worked very good.
Now, more problems. I tried to install other lines such as the Q, the N, & Franklyn Shuttle, & the F. None of them worked. The Q and the N looks like it's starting to work, then I get an error message:
Run time error '9'
Subscript out of range
When I try to run the others I get: "The train is not found".
Maybe you or Kevin can help. At least I can run the Flushing line which I really appreciate your help, and of course this Sunday I'll run some real stuff at Branford!!!
http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp/
Click on GET to the right, on new screen, look for BVE 2.5.x in "_en" for English, not the "_jp" for Japanese ... and fer krissakes, get your train folders together, bub! :)
You don't think I was counting trees or paying attention to scenery when working a train, do ya? Gotta WATCH that iron, son. Nothing else matters, not even the cuties along the platform UNTIL to stop at the marker. Then ya drops the sash and takes it all in until that pesky light on the air gauge lights up again. :)
Maybe when they get to reworking the D train, they'll fix those several "wrong track" issues. :)
Bascially, for the 2, you have the proper train, plus you need the R142 trains.
the L you need the R143 train, and the E you need the R32. and those routes will work also.
Someone redid the R142 and R143 trains, tweaked the sound, and made the panel look like your looking through the window(there's a wiper blade on it!). Unfortunately my bookmarks disappeared today, and the place that has the link is dead at the moment!
If you want a route that looks [explative deleted] real(probably the best ever done, goto:
http://www.railsimroutes.co.uk/
birmingham -cross city. It's 10 stars for graphics, sound, detail
I'm not so picky myself about the scenery though ... still, many of the JAPANESE routes are chockablock with WONDERFUL scenery ... me, I just prefer to make time and make my stops on the mark. :)
I finally got one japanese route to run this week(and it's not even one of the good scenery ones). No luck on any others yet. I have a new Hong Kong MTR route, and it's soooo real it's like I actually went there, creeps me out.
How tight are NY timeschedules in real life, I can't seem to ever be on time, until recently on the L(about 20 times to get it right) and the 7. The british routes I don't even look at the clock and i'm on time to the second naturally.
But in a lot of the BVE routes, nobody really timed the runs. :-\
By the way Kevin or West End Jeff, if I wanted to recommend BVE to a friend, could I just burn a CD of my whole BVE file and give it to them? Would it work, or would they have to do something to it, and if so, what?
The OTHER part of the problem is that the installer for BVE has to make changes to the registry so that it will work properly and a number of other settings that will not occur if you just copy in the files. You CAN do that for the routes and trains however. What I did was provide the entire directory hierarchy with routes and trains already in there, and then provided the main BVE installer plus DirectX for those that don't have it. Even then, a few people had challenges, and I pointed out at the time that I'd provided an earlier BVE executable and installer and that they should STILL visit Mackoy's site to get the latest. That seems to have made it possible without violating the "rules" ...
And a Triplex in every garage....
My thinking is that it was cheaper to Install LCD signs in the R-44/46's than to install them in the R-68/68a's. I think all 4 classes should have recieved the same rollsign and bullet packages to make it uniform for 75 foot cars.
The Sign overhaul in the R-32/38 was a bad idea in my opinion as well. I feel like it was a half assed job by the MTA to just put a display only capable of showing 1 digit.
The front rollsigns on the R-32/38 were a little bit before my time (I really started riding the subway at around the time they were GOH'ed. I was 4 years old in 1988.) I can't imagine what the 32/38 looks like without it's current display.
How did the original rollsigns on the R44 and R46 work? Did they have knobs?
Yet in Chicago, the rollsigns are controlled from the cab, and they seem to work fine. Has NYCT asked the CTA what it's done differently? IMO, automatic rollsigns combine the best features of standard rollsigns with the best features of computerized displays.
Have you seen the LCDs flash messages like that?
Or were you just making it up?
It would be cool if the V train advertised itself on the LCD display or something like that:
Want a seat?
:scrolls:
Ride the V!
(Incidentally, none of the computerized signs currently in place on any NYCT subway cars let you do anything on short notice.)
I didn't know Jay-Z was buying real estate now, too.
Anyway, I was looking through it this morning and noticed an article on a trolley car that was designed for high speed. What really intrigued me was that power was delivered to the car along 3 separate high voltage wires that were mounted vertically from poles along the track. The trolley pole was vertical and had 3 separate pick-ups.
When I checked this on Google, I found a website that scanned the entire article.
Largest and Fastest Trolley Car
Sounds like it was a test car, not in regular production. Out of general interest, the North Shore interurban hit speeds of about 80-90 mph between Chicago and Milwaukee, and if that system had used catenary/pantograph instead of normal wires/electropoles, the cars could easily have operated at faster speeds.
This odd quote from that page caught my eye, however (emphasis mine>:
Among the novelties in electric propulsion are trolley cars operated in some of the large American and European cities, without the aid of tracks, and large quantities of freight are transported in this manner
I don“t know about anyone else, but I have never heard of trucks being dependent on the trackless-trolley system, and if they ever existed, they certainly never moved “large quantities of freight” thus…
Jimmy ;)
Rebuilding the IRT to fit bigger subway cars is not feasible, nor cost-effective.
Many say Belmont himself preserved the smaller dimensions to prevent his subways from being used by freight trains at night.
The reference to the hijacked train being stopped by the trippers in the South Ferry Loop: Are the film makers referring to the now non-revenue track running from the Lexington IRT towards South Ferry?
Or was this a fictional touch (making South Ferry a part of the Lex instead of the 7th Av line, just as 28th Street was a fictional station?
Just a thought.
Plus, when the the car screeches to a halt, the track it's on looks pretty straight to me. Maybe Sargent should have asked for a fisheye lens or some special lighting to create the illusion of a curved track.
WELL.... the train DOES take a nasty curve before "THE RED!!" appears..
So, it's possible it may have been that 1..
As for the speed factor, I concur. The timers located between "18th Street" and South Ferry would have tripped the emergency brake long before the train got to the loop.
BTW, can a car of that era have it's "dead-man" feature overriden like it was in the movie?
But "dead man" features today can come in many flavors: for example you have to hit a button every so often (but you can override that with a watch and battery.
Hey, maybe they could take the remake and do a Mystery Theatre 3000 episode with it.
Maybe I'm short a car length...
28th Street was fictional?? How so?
There IS a 28th Street station on the LEX Line...
Of course, the plot could also have had a sharp thinking Inspector Daniels radioing to a cop in lower Manhattan to go into a station and set a signal to red (with the help of a TA technician).
Of course there's a real South Ferry loop. The Lex express tracks feed right into it. It has switches to the outer loop that the 1 uses. At the time P123 was filmed, IINM, the late night 6 ran to the South Ferry outer loop. Even if a midafternoon 6 train wouldn't normally run to South Ferry, surely it wasn't a secret that a train on the local track at 28th Street could somehow reach the South Ferry loop.
Thank you. The plot, however, did not have the train switching to the express tracks.
Still, it shows that the plot was plausible in many ways. Some liberties were taken, but you didn't have to suspend disbelief very much to watch the movie. That's part of what made it so wonderful.
Unlike Money Train, which was absurd from start to finish - but then viewers were too busy waiting for J Lo to take her clothes off to worry about the trains...
J Lo takes off her clothes in "Money Train"?
I've never figured out just what it is about her that seems to drive half of all American men wild.
She's supposed to be paying attention & marrying Ben and lookie--
She's already scouting out her NEXT marry-them-all-at-the-same-time hubby!!
Pffft..
The issue might be the relentless media hype touting J-Lo as hottest chik on the face of the planet. It's not hard to imagine a reaction developing against this hype.
If a girl has guys drooling all over her, asking her out, spending $$ on her, spending more time looking down her shirt than at her, what kind of attitude do you think she'd develop?
J-Lo might not have been an object of universal lust back in high school. I mean, she looks pretty hot, but so do any number of chix.
You will clear the local all the way from 28th St. to South Ferry. By clear I mean all switches properly set and all signals green.
In the novel, there was an additional instruction that all other trains on other tracks were to lay dead. That reference was omitted in the film.
It so happens that a group of thieves was chased down by an NYPD squad that commandeered a subway train and raced it down a tunnel, the TA getting other trains out of its way. True story. The thieves were busted.
Was THAT a true story?? Naw... right?
Court Square
21 St/Van Alst
Greenpoint Av
Nassau Av
Broadway
Myrtle-Willoughby
Classon Av
Were they evaluating the G's ridership to determine whether or not the IND Crosstown will be come a two-car OPTO shuttle (hopefully not), or were they documenting the crowds to see if, let's say, an extension to Church Av would be justified? Or was there some other reason so many of them were sent to various stations along the IND Crosstown?
I've never seen so many traffic checkers until this morning.
Peace
David
Given the service is about at the mimimum and unlikely to higher, I don't see how it could. The real question is, with Metrocard couldn't the MTA develop an approximate origin-destination-time of day matrix using the swipes? It wouldn't be perfect. People like me who get off on one side of the bridge and get back on on the other on the way to work would mess it up. But I'm hoping to see ridership by time of day and O/D sometime soon, rather than just by entry point in the system.
The G needs more frequent 4 car OPTO service utilizing in cab monitors. i rode the G all summer during rush hour. The G's biggest problem is it doers not come often enough. When more cars become available with the new cars rollign in on the L. The MTA should seriously concider reducing headways with more 4 car OPTO sets instead of the increasing train size. Any crowding conditions I observed(not crowded comapared to other rush hour services such as the Q) were due to the long headways. Longer trains would not server the riding public any better
It is the only way to cost effectivly reduce headways on the line.
"Avoid feeling isolated and alone"
"Don't ride between subway cars"
Does that make sense?
Perhaps they (the MTA) are going for the "shock value".
get AIM : www.aim.com (stupid)
The further you get from when the equipment was built the harder it is to get parts.
Ever wonder why the Museum cars (LoVs, Standards, D Types) don't run that often on Fan Trips? It is because if they break down it could be a while before someone can come up with a replacement part.
Eventually, they would run out of replacemnt parts for the Redbirds.
Also because they have to start storing part for the next generation of cars they have to find places to store part for older cars and eventually they just have to dospose of those old parts.
Try searching the archives and you'll see that the problem lies squarely with you, not with OnTheJuice.
As for what Chapter 11 Choo Choo told me to do to get the answer - I already did that. That's how I found out that Peter had hot posted in about 2 weeks. At one time he had been posting multiple posts each day. I found that his posts were more informative than most. Usually more informative than yours and certainly more informative than that sarcastic little twit, Chapter 11 Choo Choo.
OMG, two weeks! OMG, something terrible must have happened to him! It's not like until two weeks ago, he was posting every day or anything.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
You are seeing provisions that were made for possible conversion to a 4-track line at a later time.
in the pass above the NY Penn tracks in Bay Ridge
NY Penn?
Those are the freight tracks that lead to 65 St.
anyone have anymore info?
if i am wrong, please correct me.
tim
Also, the original design for the 4th Ave. line called for express service along the entire route in Brooklyn. Here is the original station plan:
TIllary St.-- Local
De Kalb Av-- Local
Pacific St.-- Express
President St--Local
9th St.------ Local
Prospect Av.--Local
25th St.------Local
36th St.------Express
44th St.------Local
52nd St-------Local
60th St.------Local
68th St.------Express
77th St.------Local
86th St.------Local
92nd St.------Local
100th St.-----Express
tim
Oh and does anyone know where the Sea Beach Line was to go at its North end in the Triboro plan?
The Sea Beach line was not part of the Triborough Plan.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bytype.html
I used to feel the same way. But then, if people want to ask questions, why not answer them? No one is requiring you to respond or even read the post.
Elias
Mark
Thanks!
Mark
You will notice that there are no Standards, LowVs, HighVs, or any thing else listed with an R- number.
Older MOW equipment would also fall into this category. Much of earlier "city owned" mow equipment was converted pre-R- equipment.
Now how MOW and non-revenue equipment got R- (revenue) numbers is as was spoken earlier a "TA-ism" probably using the existing contract number system for all rolling stock and rolling stock related contracts.
Elias
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
ALL R- numbers were used, though not all of the equipments associated with these numbers was ever purchased. The R- catalog is found elsewither on this site.
Elias
Damn those non slants are uglifying the line.
http://shamash.org/~kosher/cgi-bin/kosscan.pl?Recno=00700&Comm=two
How about a Brighton Line excursion one evening? Maybe some Brighton Line people like Flatbush41 and others can join us.
Both good, both Glatt kosher.
(And do any of them deliver?)
Sunday is better for some people, particulary Choo Choo, Greenberger and any others who can only railfan on Sundays.
Post it on Subtalk when you have a date for us, please.
I thought the point was to eat at Famous Pita, because it is kosher. But any kosher restaurant is fine in my book. But is Adelman's kosher? I've never heard of it.
I usually get some Pastrami, a couple of Potato Pancakes. Unless they changed their special (I haven't been there for a year), when you take home a whole chicken you get free soup or a pound of any salad of your choice (Cole Slaw, Macaroni, or Potato.). Before I leave, I always get a handful of dinner mints at the register, with fruit filling inside.
How can it be if it's open on Saturday? Unless it isn't anymore?
--Mark
Give me a few days to clear this issue up, I need another reason to go to Kings Highway and I actually do have to go this Sunday for something else.
OTOH if we have a large contingent of Subtalkers (more than 6 people) then it may be wiser to go to Essex on Coney or Famous Pita. Famous Pita has no waiter service and a all-you-can-eat cold salar bar and sodas while Adlemans' does not a salad bar.
Besides, I find the Brighton local a real drag unless I have work to do on the train.
Well if you find the Brighton Local a drag, you can continue on the B1 bus which will take you to the (in order of bus stops), the Culver, Sea Beach, West End and 4th Ave lines, the last one mentioned will take you an hour to reach it so it's not worth it.
Is it just me or do R-40m's look like R-62a's?
An R-62a:
An R-40m:
Thanks. I think all the cars, from the R-40M to the R-142(A) look similar. The R-143 lost one of the three front "windows," however.
Also, is the front route bullet on the R-40M smaller than the one on the R-68? Thats how it looks to me. And if so, couldn't they use an R-68 sized route bullet on the R-40M? It would look a lot better, IMO. The R-40M's bullet is just too small.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=262183
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=262068
what was more eerie-- that POST or the POSTER.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
It still is shocking and surreal to me that I was an eyewitness to the deaths of thousands of people. It could be two years or two decades...the memory of that day will never leave me.
This system could easily be modified to effect automated platform sinage.
You can see the IDENTRA loops on the front of these SEPTA BSS cars.
See, you ask a good question and you get a good answer.
But not one that is factually correct.
I'd try to find another source for information , if I were you.
BTW, did you notice that there is no wire connection betwen the IDENTRA coil and the train? Did you ask your SEPTA maintainer, where the IDENTRA coil gets its power to broadcast: "I am an express, I am an express, ..."?
BTW, I have posted details of how the IDENTRA system works. :-)
Sheesh.
There was NO wire for the Flushing line IDENTRA loops NOR any connection between the IDENTRA loop and the interior of the car.
There was a 3 position switch at the base of the loop. There was no connection with the rest of the train. The loop was removeable because only the front and rear cars had loops. The IDENTRA system was first adopted to the R12/14/15's. The R33/36 fleet came with the bracket already on the cars. They reused the same loops.
If the wire that you showed is simply a remote actuator of the switch, I must still ask the same questions.
BTW, what maintenance did your SEPTA maintainer perform on the IDENTRA loop?
The Identra loop is connected to a box in the train from which the T/O can have signals set for himself at all places except FERN ROCK, OLNEY and SNYDER.
Not quite. There were at least 3 settings, I've heard of 5 settings. The wayside equipment was essentially a grid dip meter with 5 different frequencies. The switch selected one of the resonant frequencies.
-Robert King
That's precisely the point I'm trying to bring out. All the smarts and power are in the wayside equipment.
they don't have the wire shown in the picture.
Perhaps it's to prevent the loop from falling onto the tracks, when they remove it from the mounting bracket. :-)
As Mike said, the settings are made by the operator, there are controls in the cabs.
At stations between 5th Avenue and Queensboro Plaza on the 7 line, there were signs hanging over the platform that used these Identra loops to light up either "Local" or "Express." They are no longer used now, and with the "new cars" (R62A's) coming in, I don't know if it'll ever be used again.
5th Ave, Grand Central and Queensboro Plaza had 3 positions: "Loc", "Exp" and "Sup Exp". "Local" and Express" signs were at Vernon-Jackson, Hunters Point and Courthouse Square.
Not only that but at least 82 that share track sections enough to require distinct markers... I'm impressed.
1) Local
2) Express
3) Broad-Ridge Spur
4) Pattison Special Express on game days (the stadiums are there).
They ran one every ten minutes for a couple hours last Monday for the Eagles embarassment against Tampa; 12,000 passengers rode them.
(1 OFF-OFF, 2 OFF-ON, 3 ON-OFF, 4 ON-ON).
Setting switches, changing sign displays, whatever is just a matter of what equipment is connected to the identra coil reader and how its all set up to work.
-Robert King
#3 West End Jeff
thank you.
tim
thanks
tim
It was planned for the SIRT to connnect to the BMT at 59th St (Brooklyn) but aside from tunnel headers the project died (curse you Robert Moses!!!).
Livingston street does not reach the waterfront so I don't think that was likely.
If you go to the microfilm room in the 42nd Street Library, you can find the following report that describes the Livingston Street Plan:
Call #: *ZV-TPG+ p.v.170,no.11
Author: New York (State). Public Service Commission. First District.
Title: Whitney-Harkness report on rapid transit for central Brooklyn. [Microform] Report by Travis H. Whitney, secretary, and Leroy T. Harkness, assistant counsel, to the chairman of the Public Service Commission.
There were plans made going back to the late 1890s to run rapid transit lines above or below Livingston Street. An early advocate of that concept was Abraham Abraham (no mistake) of A&S fame.
: )
Mark
They probably WOULD be this cheap. But then you have to pay to truck them off the property. That costs $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
On a roundabout way if you go through that it will just end up linking you here:
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/bvesite/
and that site has plenty nyc routes and all the trains. I found some good modified versions of the new cars on another site, i would have to look them up.
Everything from there should be self-explainatory, unless you download the redbird, then there's the one extra step.
Remember to d/l the train that matches the route.
NYCTA already operates the largest subway system, in rolling stock and stations, in the world. Adding LRTs means adding resources to maintain and repair LRTs, something MTA has never done, and hasn't been done in decades.
There's too much going on in the Capital Plan already.
Mark
there was TALK of a new light rail line along the old SIRT North Shore right of way, but that apparently, is a dead issue
That’s all it was—just talk, and about 99.44% speculation. Imagine the hassles involved—first there’s a crossing of Kill Van Kull, and what was proposed was the (imaginary?) railroad-track capacity over the Bayonne Bridge (could LRVs make it up and down its grades? and if not the Bayonne Bridge, how else to cross?)—next, there’s the trick of separating the North Shore line from the “general railroad system” to make it LRT-kosher in the shared viewpoints of the FRA and FTA—and of course, there’s that niggling point about extant high-level platforms on the North Shore line, whereupon the HBLRT uses low-level platforms exclusively and even has low floors for ADA access at same.
In the long run, too messy to even consider, for minimal transportation benefits.
Why are people still dreaming about a return of LRT to any part of NYC anyway? Plenty of heavy-rail to go around, and that can haul a lot more passengers than even a three-coupled articulated LRV train.
Private Ownership/Operator and Or NYCDOT should operate LRT.
AEM7
How is this possible?
And while you're at it, appreciate that a lot of people in public health and disaster medicine are at work to help protect this country too.
Generally remembering to be grateful for what you have, will take you a long way.
AEM7
PATH workers too, for their actions in getting people out of the WTC station.
I will thank a firefighter as they freely risk their lives without passing judgement or expecting anything in return.
I always think of the Simpsons episode where Bart is panhandling for money on the NYC subway and proceeds to lick the pole. He says "Ok, I'm in way over my head here!"
~W
Someone here at work told me a few weeks ago he saw a similar special on TV and they found the most common substance found on the railings was SEMEN! I hope that's not true!!!
I've been riding the subway all my life and always hold on to the poles, but for some reason it just started bothering me more lately.
~W
Mark
Fairly low. Siliva is an anti-bacterial agent all by itself. This is why your dentist does not need to use an alcohol wipe in your mouth before he jabs you with that needle or drill.
Actually, my dentist *does* use a swab before the needle, but it does not have alcohol on it, but ambisol instead.
Sugars and Salts are also used as preservatives for thier anti-bacterial properties.
Elias
Honey, too. Doctors without Borders loves the stuff, since they often have to work in remote regions where modern topical antibiotics are hard to get.
Mark
Gneiss is nicer.
Mark
Your body, if healthy, protects you against most potential invaders. Use common sense. Wash your hands with soap after you use the bathroom and before you eat, or if you sneeze a lot. Use clean glasses and plates; don't eat off a plate that had raw meat or poultry on it.
And try not to walk around in a panic.
However, cleaning the poles is never done.
I'll do you one worse: I saw a woman eating some sort of fruit on the train, spit the seed/core back into her hand, throw it into a bag, then grab the pole. Yuck.
Do you mean you have never seen people urinate on the pole (and the seats), like 'em real Dorchester Boyz?
AEM7
Urine is sterile.
Elias
At least she didn't spit the seeds out onto the train floor.
Yeah, that would qualify her to ride SEPTA.
I think I saw a few apple saplings growing on the floor of a Market-Frankford train...
: )
Mark
Not to say we should have chicken coops in our living rooms, that's how things like SARS get started, but hypersterility is not only unachieveable, it's not necessarily desirable.
Mark
That's why the directions on the Lysol can give a pretty intense procedure for disinfecting. I think you have to spray it on like paint, and then leave it there for a good length of time before wiping it off. I'm fuzzy on the details since I haven't read my Lysol can in while...
Mark
Elias
That's normal, some people are like that, what could you do :-\. No need to get scared but I usually wash my hands too whenever I hold on to subway poles and such (common sense here).
For those who knew and lost a loved one, a friend, a person they knew from High School days, my deepest condolences to you and your family.
For those who are lucky enough to escape for just was nearby, the LORD will be with you and us, guiding us every step of the way.
For the Police Officers,, Firefighters, EMS and other people who went above and beyond bravery in saving as many lives as possible, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN, FOREVER.
And for those who saw or posted it in Subtalk, the updates, witnessing every second of the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil since Pearl Harbor, GOD BLESS THIS COUNTRY, GOD BLESS EVERYONE.
As of this post, they are reading the full names of the fallen, one by one.
"Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."
Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4:9
Blatant attack on the first amendment's establishment clause.
Anyway, if it is deleted, that would be GOOD!
The World Trade is coming back. It will have a different look and feel, but it will be magnificent.
I agree
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/aboutimg.cgi?bimg_6123.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6123.jpg
I don't know. Maybe it makes too much sense for it to happen. One thing is for certain, I would never ride a bus and would use bicycle. Much safer in my opinion.
Steve.
In Tel Aviv, Dan (the municipal bus service) has as heavy a ridership as anywhere you'll find in the US and more, because gasoline is a few dollars a gallon over there. Tel Aviv could easily support subway service.
Egged (Israel's government-owned "Greyhound") also has heavy ridership, and provides inter-city and local service in Haifa, Jerusalem, Eilat, etc.
But you need $$$, and Israel has too much of its budget tied up in the military. Resolve the issues of Palestine, reduce the size and cost of the Israeli military, and you'll have enough money to give Dan to build Tel Aviv Metrorail. I assure you the trains would become sardine cans from day one.
As far as i remeber i had found something about a light rail or
subway plans in Israel. I think it was for Tel Aviv, but i can't
remeber which page it was.
Mark
Mark
How extensive?
I can recall that rail service in Israel in the 1960s and 1970s sucked eggs. 5 mph trains, frequent derailments (the train cars would take a couple of minutes to decide which way they wanted to tip over). It was a joke.
The original fleet used Danish built DMU's, and now German build double decker DMU's are being used.
Living in KC for a few months, did you get to go to St. Louis and explore its Metrolink light rail system?
Mark
Mark
Or better yet, to Rosh Hanikra and through those cool tunnels. Then, if they are feeling brave, run some thru trains up into Lebanon and ultimately to Turkey.
Actually, I most want them to restore service to Jerusalem, if they haven't already. The traffic on the highway between there and Tel Aviv is ridiculous, especially on the outskirts of Tel Aviv.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's going to take a bit more than a roadmap more deserving of a derelict rest stop and some sound bytes to pry Israel's fingers from the trigger guard.
OTOH, how about a Jeruselem-Tel Aviv maglev? From the map it looks like there are some quite substantial roads along that route, all something like transrapid needs is a median or shoulder to fit right in. The line could eventually run from Eliat to Nazareth and Haifa, with stops in Beer Sheeba, Tel Aviv (change for the shuttle to Jerusalem :] ) and other assorted locations. Also a Tel Aviv monorail could be a good solution to the problems of digging in such a hostile environment (read: ancient stuff everywhere), however I have never visited, nor even seen a street map of Tel Aviv, so I don't know where it might go.
Besides, a subway would not stop terrorism. A train can be bombed just like a bus can.
And the damage could be worse because the explosion would be confined inside the tunnel and would spread sideways instead of up and outward.
$$$ is the issue.
...and the dollars won't be available until the bombs fall silent once and for all, and I don't think anyone can predict when that will happen, aside from it being a LONG time from now, sadly.
Mark
Subways in Israel is possibly one of the most ridiculous ideas in transit. And the most dangerous.
Plus, a Metro would, in many respects, be more blast resistant - esp. if you understand what you need to do from the outset.
"Subways in Israel is possibly one of the most ridiculous ideas in transit. And the most dangerous."
You're wrong. A Metro in Israel wiould be an incredibly smart investment. If they had the money to invest.
Funny, The newspapers I read say that busses in Israel have been going off like popcorn. Apparently, their passenger screening methods aren't exactly up to snuff. A bomb on a bus can kill 50 people. A bomb on the subway can kill hundreds, and shut down the system for months. In a situation where suicide bombers are lining up for their chances, running a subway is a Very Bad Idea.
I don't believe that was a deliberate act, however.
Not true. In your specific scenario the subway would be running again in a matter of hours.
Yes, riding buses in Israel is a little like playing Russian roulette. But Israel doesn't allow that to interfere with public services.
The Israeli transportation authority would not agree with you.
What specific scenario? I didn't give a specific scenario. A bomb on a train can cause a full-speed derailment into tunnel supports/walls. This will ruin the rolling stock, tear up the track, destroy interlockings, and possibly damage the tunnel itself. Now, once this happens on Israel's brand-new subway system, won't people call for an investigation? An improvement in security [even if that isn't possible]? The investigation and repairs alone could take months. They could shut down the subway completely, since they've lived without it for so long.
"But Israel doesn't allow that to interfere with public services"
That's because you can clean up a destroyed bus, and run other busses around it. A ruined track and damaged tunnel will stop service cold. And you'd better believe that once it's repaired, another bomber will be waiting in line opening day, and every day after that, until one gets through.
Another point is that a new subway would be a sign of progress of the Israeli people, a symbol of perminence carved into the earth. The Palestinian saboteurs would come out of the woodwork for a chance to damage or destroy it.
The result is that the picture you paint has nothing to do with how Israel responds to bombings.
Rather strongly, I gather. Everytime a bomb goes off, there are huge outcries and marches in the streets, then they launch a missle into an urban building.
This still doesn't change the fact that a subway in Israel is an unsecurable safety nightmare.
That is your opinion, not a fact (but you are entitled to express it, of course).
You need to make diversion channels with slurry walls, pump water out of the ground in some places; you need to pour earth-hardening concrete in other places. Take a huge sandbox, pour in enough cement, and you artificially harden the ground. Then you drill a tunnel through that.
Examples: Side platform at Pavonia/Newport - completed 9 months behind schedule, Elevators at Pavonia/Newport - completed 3 months behind schedule (and they still break dwon but not as often).
Presumably you mean the work on the replacement station. That's very much a special case, as was true for the reconstruction of the 1/9 line.
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/bc/106327506642631.xml?jjournal?bc
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1063260694280650.xml?starledger?nnj
WHEREAS the 100th ANNIVERSARY of the OPENING of the SUBWAY of the CITY of NEW YORK, constructed by the INTERBOROUGH RAPID TRANSIT COMPANY, August Belmont, Pres., is approximately FOUR HUNDRED TWELVE DAYS hence,
WHEREAS many PEOPLE, ORGANIZATIONS, &c. are COMMEMORATING this EVENT, and such EVENTS are being planned,
WHEREAS many people on this INTERNET SITE are knowledgeable and are willing to ASSIST in the CAUSE,
THEREFORE, this ANNOUNCEMENT, being made on this day, the ELEVENTH day of the month of SEPTEMBER, in the Year of Our Lord TWO THOUSAND THREE, is to inform all of the CONSTRUCTION of a BVE ROUTE based on said SUBWAY, circa the Year of Our Lord NINETEEN HUNDRED FOUR, as it was when the LINE first OPENED.
The CONSTRUCTION of this ROUTE is being done by TRANSFERPoint, with ASSISTANCE from OTHERS.
THEREFORE, this is an OPEN CALL for ASSISTANCE. Videos, Schedules, Photographs, and other RESOURCES are hereby REQUESTED to ASSIST in the CONSTRUCTION of this ROUTE.
Any ASSISTANCE is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
ROBERT M. MARRERO,
BVE Route Builder, and WEBMASTER of TRANSFERPoint.
I've been creating my own route and am becoming good at object making I think. I would like contribute little things like that, light fixtures, benches, steps, 3d Rails, etc.
I know how to code in .csv instead of .rw though as far as routing goes, but I'm sure you guys are more able bodied to do the actual routing.
It is only a 9 mile subway route right? I'm not sure how many paper resources are available in my area, but I could do a search...
Jeff W
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irtbook/
Just get his oK before you do anything with it.
What is he writing - a declaration?
Consist n:
makeup or composition (as of coal sizes or a railroad train) by classes, types, or grades and arrangement
from m-w.com
The more you read, the more you learn... that's how I got "educated".
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1063260809280650.xml?starledger?nnj
Really? But the ALPs have sand, which gives them a fighting chance, whereas the Arrows will just sit and spin all their wheels. I'm not a BLE member, but it would seem that having even 8 wheels pulling with some regularity would be better than some 32-64 wheels pulling very intermittantly. Then again, I'm not an expert, any engineers know?
Dutchrailnut, you out there?
--Mark
--Mark
I remember at one point they attached a new traffic signal to the abandoned structure, which started rumors among railfans that they were going to revive the line.
That's the funniest thing I've read here today! Thanks.
If Geocities behaves like the bandwith nazi that I know they are, go here and scroll down.
... I wonder when the bridge that carried shuttle trains over the Harlem River was dismantled.
--Mark
-- Ed Sachs
You wonder why the TA never revived the design concept. You had pieces of it. Eight 75 foot cars had fewer trucks than ten 60 foot cars. The R143 and R160s are coming in married sets. But no car class seems to have combined the two.
Maybe its time. After all, scheduled maintenance and high MDBF works with the unit concept. The one reason for individual cars is the ability to separate them when one breaks down.
1. 200 or so Standards were rehabbed/rebuilt in the late 1950s
2. With the arrival of the R32s, all of the older BMT equipment was relegated to the Eastern division, where Triplexes couldn't run because they were too heavy.
Triplexes were my favorites, also.
-- Ed Sachs
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Except, IINM their rollsigns only have the BMT lines on them.
-- Ed Sachs
My last ride was on the 1 (Q) Brighton Express starting at Sheepshead Bay. It was not supposed to run express so late in the morning but the train must have been running a bit late, which was fantastic for me and gave me a life long memory.
The Transit Museum arranges these trips. Several are used to raise money for the March of Dimes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Is this within a month or a year? This IS not made clear.
I know I'm a poet and didn't know it.....8-)
Riders won't have to register for the program but will have to buy cards from vending machines using debit or credit cards.
WHY can't cash riders, using the machines, enjoy the same advantage? Smacks of kickbacks from the CC issuers, IMHO.
Riders who lose a card can get up to two replacements a year.
SEE ABOVE
To get a refund, riders will call a toll-free number. The TA will be able to deactivate the missing card so no one can use it.
The TA has had the ability to deactivate cards since they were introduced> WHY did they have to be forced into it?
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm wondering if they are going to mail you a new card? How many days will the returned card have on it considering there is a delay from the time you lost it to the time they receive your request and issue you a new card.
Furthermore, during this time period, you're basically paying out of your own pocket since you don't have a card.
With the CC number, they can probably match up the credit card number to the serial number on the metro card and deactivate it.
With a cash purchase, they wouldn't have any idea what the number was unless you had written it down. Even if you had written it down, they have no way of knowing whether or not the serial number you're giving them is your card or not -- or whether somebody is just guessing at numbers and getting a cash refund for deactivating somebody else's card.
At least in the CC case, even if the wrong card is deactivated (by a typo for example) the money gets refunded to the credit card that purchased that metro card.
No conspiracy here (well, at least not this time...)
CG
My point is that, once the system is set up, why discriminate by card type at all? (SingleRides aren't MetroCards at all.)
This was a political move.
We could of figured that out very quickly.
Mark
That's a non sequiter if I ever heard one.
Besides, no MTA employees died in the attack.
No.
This sooooooooooo being added to the SubTalk Stupid site.... thanks.
However, that's Jay St. In addition to the lack of a 6" gap, note that the platform has crosswise wood slats. 168th was cement.
I think this is an example of SubTalk at its best, and illustrates the power of many minds. It's also uncannily like the fable of the seven blind men and the elephant : each mistook the one detail he perceived for the big picture, or whole story.
I also think it's interesting how Bridge and Myrtle, and Jamaica Ave. and 168th Sts. have changed in different yet similar ways : el and old stores gone, new stores, offices, etc. An in-depth comparison would be interesting.
Cumberland hospital is in fact no longer a hospital! The hospital directly across from Brooklyn Tech is Brooklyn hopsital, and remains in operation. Cumberland is across Fort Greene Parkand is now a health center or something.
The buildings in that picture aren't familiar. Where exactly was bridge/myrtle? (as in what streets was it between)
john
You're right, though, by '74 the graffiti scourge was hitting its stride.
GOTTA LOVE how on the back of one of Command Center's chairs
there was NYCTA written in black.... and it was crossed out with MTA
written slant-wise above it... pure amateur. lol
IIRC, it was on the chair which (Frank?) was sitting in before
Garber intervened in the holdup dialogues...
In the novel, an express train is seen rocketing through a station. In the movie, 99% of the movie required only one trainset. I don't remember if other trains were seen. Trains were seen passing the tower (look at the tower windows, you'll see that). But this type of thing can be filmed once, and then you see the same footage over and over again.
WHYYYY is Daniels standing next to (and talking into) the cab of 7439....
........which IIRC was (fictionally) the number of the "hijacked car"'s car number"
Mebbe they shot those scenes when the "Cast of Geese" was at lunch.
It is common in TV series which involve a main character's car, to have several automobiles that look the same, but are used for different purposes.
For example, in the old series "Hardcastle and McCormick," Brian Keith was too big to fit into the Coyote sports car's door. So one Coyote was basically stationary, with a door removed so Keith could get into it. Then the door was placed on and film was shot with him sitting in the car. Another coyote with a body double (but thinner) was used when the McCormick character was shown jumping in and driving away.
The only other movie that I recall having that level of attention to detail and authenticity was 2001: A Space Odyssey. There was one subtle error in the movie. When the scientist sips his drink on the zero-G spacecraft, the liquid drops back into the straw after he lets go with his mouth.
--Mark
We'll Never Forget 9/11/2001
#3 West End Jeff
We asked what happened, and he said, just, something very bad. My friend and I, not knowing what was really happening, joked. We thought another teacher had gotten into a car accident, again.
My next class was gym. By the time gym began, it was about 8:50. We were recieving locker locks that day for our gym lockers. I remember a friend, I can't remember who, running up the bleachers in the gym screaming, a plane just hit the twin towers. Thinking it was a small plane, like a Cessna or something even smaller, I just said, "heh, stupid pilots. I hope everyone is ok." My friend turned to me and said, "Jared, it was a boeing." I musta looked stunned, and I was. I couldn't believe it. No way, it couldn't be true. Then I thought about the note the office assistant gave to my teacher. It seemed too real.
I got my lock, went downstairs, put it on the locker. Just then another friend came down said the office was lookin for me. My dad had been expecting a liver transplant, and I thought he had been called in. On the way to the office, we picked up my little brother in his class. We both looked at eachother and nodded, signalling we both "knew" that he had been called in.
I spotted him down the hall. He signed us out and we left the building. I asked him if he got called in, he said no, that the Twin Towers and the Pentagon had been hit. I told him I knew about the twin towers, but not the Pentagon. My bother stopped in his tracks. I knew it was bad, but it didn't really hit me full force til we got in the car and put on the radio. "The North tower is now gone. There is now only 1 tower left standing. You're listening to PLJ coverage of the attacks on the US. The twin towers and the Pentagon have been hit, and the North Tower of the Twin Towers is now gone. The New York City skyline, is forever changed."
We got home. No more than 30 seconds after I looked at the TV, I saw the South Tower fall. I fell to the ground. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. My dad started to cry a little. It was something I'd never seen before.
I can't remember much of that day after that. I remember hearing various reports about planes that were missing. I remember, I went into a chat room, and talked about it with everyone else. It was really scary not to see any porn advertisements. My dad had thought it was b/c we supported Israel that the terrorists attacked us. I also remember franticaly trying to reach my mom, who was on a business trip in Pheonix. We finally reached her. She was trying to figure out how she would get home. She said she was probably gonna take Amtrak. We told her no way in hell should she ever get on a train at this time. We had no clue what was gonna happen next, so we were on edge. I explained to her how the tracks could easily be sabatoged, especially out there.
She decided to drive home with some other co-workers. I remember her joking about a warning they got in Texas for speeding. Everytime she called, she'd tell us where they were, and I relayed directions to her. I sent her through TN, which looked to be the fastest on the map. For some reason, they stopped in Graceland. We later found out, they pooled there money together to charter a bus back to NY. The company(She said it was Greyhound, but I doubt it) took their money, but gave them no bus. They sent the cops after the company and got their money back. They got some BS thing that the buses had to go to NY for the firefighters, or something like that. I bet it was total BS.
I think it was 3 monthes later, that we got a call from an old friend from our old neighborhood in Brooklyn. I answered. I couldn't believe it, it was Pat Flounders. My mom had been trying to get her new number for years(they were told by the FBI to move to the Poconos for protection, cuz their son was in the mafia. (Anything you read in the papers about him is probably bogus). She asked to talk to my mom, who was in the shower. She told me her husband Joe had passed away. I didn't know how til my mom called her back. She war crying. She told us, "that was just Pat. Joe died in the twin towers." I went totaly numb. I couldn't believe it.
We went to services last year at Ground Zero, but couldn't make it this year.
This is so bittersweet - celebrating the coming of a new life on a day when so many others lost theirs.
--Mark
Robert
My kids are (almost) 12 and 9 ... it gets easier as they get older.
However, keep in mind the saying "little kids, little problems ... bigger kids, bigger problems".
Here's hoping our kids stay on the right track during their lives!
--Mark
My kids are (almost) 12 and 9 ... it gets easier as they get older.
However, keep in mind the saying "little kids, little problems ... bigger kids, bigger problems".
Here's hoping our kids stay on the right track during their lives!
--Mark
--Mark
Paraphraising B,S&T.
PATH: 27.8
NYCT: 27.6
LIRR: 26.9
MN: 23.8
NJT: around 20.
National average Heavy rail 23, commuter rail (self propellled) 25.
Either the average car life is 50, or there is a serious deficit in car replacement in the U.S.
Wrong.
The AVERAGE car age for the Path fleet is 30. The Average for the MTA is about 23-25.
Which agency's cars have been more recently rehabilitated?
David
But then again, the oldest PATH cars still used are from 1965, maybe.
I never really thought of the R-44s as old ... I guess I am getting old!
--Mark
When I worked for the TA the first time, in the mid-1980s, 30 years was thought to be the life of a subway car. But the Redbirds are being retired at around 40 years old. And the MTA refinanced the debt used to purchase the R62s on the ground that they would last 50 years.
Obviously, obsolescence is a factor, but the retrofit of the pre-R40 cars shows it can be overcome. How much of the existing fleet could be retrofit for CBTC? For AC Traction with regenerative braking?
Then there is condition. At some point the steel rots, but post-Redbird cars are mostly stainless steel.
Can we assume a 50 year life for current and future cars? Of at least for the R32s, R44-46s, and subsequent classes? That puts the expected mean fleet age at 25.
Also, the oldest PATH cars, the PA1s and 2s, (I may screw this up I don't have a roster handy) which are the 600-7?? and the 100-series blind end cars, received a pretty extensive rebuilding about 10 years ago. They got the "imitation" stainless steel modification to their car bodies (to match the "real" stainless steel PA4s), and the interiors were redone. As delivered the cars had 2-2 seating, either throughout or at the ends, can't remember which. This was changed to the current 'bench-type' seating to give more room for standees during crush hour.
Then at about noon, trains were passing Grand Central for more police activity. Anyone know what happened?
I'm surprised there weren't more bomb threats, what with all the people out there with a perverse sense of humor.*
* = okay, I have a perverse sense of humor, but I'd draw the line at doing something like that.
On the other hand, it may become one of those horrible movies, like Plan 9 from Outer Space or Showgirls, that becomes a cult favorite simply because it's so bad.
--Mark
--Mark
9:20am - 96th and Bway
11:00am - 42st and 2nd Ave
11:15am - 34st and Madison
With the lowered center doors, all the PCC control equipment had to go, and a solid state control system like the K Cars sustituted. Brookville built all new trucks (like a B3, but similar) with the same motors that the K cars have.
The cars are an LRV in the skin of a PCC.
Chuck Greene
While I'm not happy to hear this, I guess it is MUCH better than having nothing. As long as they perform as well as real PCC's did, I will be happy.
The 'Foamers" are going to be very disapointed. They've been celebrating since the work began. "the PCC's are coming back" they all crowed.
The cars are going to operate just like a K-car. Same stuff inside.
SEPTA was smart to specify that. No oddball parts to stock for an 18 car fleet. No new tools.
Very true. Strangely enough, SEPTA hasn't been smart enough to retire all of their "real" PCC's. They currently operate eight PCC cars to one degree or another; three work cars and five cars operated in excursion service. They also have a smattering of old 1920's work cars, although some of these have been rebuilt with new cabs and they may have new motors and controls also (at least two of the ones I'm thinking of still have their original Brill 50E2 trucks).
Frank Hicks
SEPTA gets a lot of PR (public relations; don't get excited, Boricua!) from its PCC excirsions.
2168
2799
2785 and 2728
Mark
TRC Wheels.
Control parts. (Westinghouse. Forget GE.)
At a price that's not outragous.
The PCC has achieved museum/heritage status.
Yes, unfortunately, it has. 15, or even just 10 years ago, it was another story. At times I wish I could force the clock back to sometime between 1987 and 1990 in some respects or wish I could have afforded film for my crappy 110 camera back then or something.
-Robert King
Mark
-Robert King
Bill "Newkirk"
No matter. I'm just happy to see rail service restored on 15. I don't care that much about a clumsy-looking air conditioner, and I care even less that the machines don't have real PCC insides. It's rail. Yippee!
Let's just hope that SEPTA doesn't find a way to make it fail, which I get the idea they'd like to do, so they can go back to the buses they love so much.
Mark
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned the subway lost its character in the late 70's when the R-9's were retired. All of the cars you mentioned I consider new cars, even the redbirds. I even considered the R-10's and R-12's too modern.
For me the R-30's and everything that came after them are the "NEW" cars... There hasn't been a real subway car on the system since the R-9's, 10's and 12's retired - guess its got something to do with that roof style ;-) (amongst other things)...
I agree with that sentiment brother. World War II's technological boom fueled new, radically different, electromechanical concepts down there. Up until 1940, "new" subway cars were fabricated with (AMUE) "character". It's the concept of the SMEE's that'll always be "new" to me.
Also, subway cars of each generation have always carried in them the best technology that that generation can put out toward making the subway move. Once upon a time it was the AMUE, which replaced the even earlier BMT stuff. Then came SMEE, the successor to the AMUE, and so on. At the same time similar advances have been made in motors, from the original steam engines, through the early experiments with electrification on the manhattan els, right up to todays IGBT controlled AC motors. It certainly makes sense to go with the bleeding edge of the available technology, a subway car is a 40 year, possibly 100+ car investment (sometimes more like 400-500+), and cramming it full of 'gizmos' will thus give them (hopefully) a longer lifespan than if they'd just copied the previous generations design.
Now I can only question why you would have such a distrust for the R142 and R143, which make extensive use of computers to control the motors, run diagnostics, and of course perform the announcements, yet you are using a computer to place a message on a board that can only be read by other people using computers. Also, New York's "New Tech" isn't all that new, IGBT goes back to the mid 1990s, a lifetime in computer terms (heck, some people say that transformer-less IGBTs taking 25kvac [for Amtrak-like use] may be in the near future). AC traction from a DC source isn't anything groundbreaking, I know most of Europe has been doing it with their subways for years.
Perhaps instead of bemoaning the death of the 40 year old redbirds you should instead celebrate their leaving, since it allows fresh water to be flushed into New York's man sewers. Eventually these cars too will become filthy from their environment, no matter what the car washes and GOHs do, and they too will be retired. No doubt during those days there will be plaintive odes to the R142 and R143, people will remember their first rides, some of the younger railfans will have not known the RedBirds (it's already happening on all lines cept the 7, like it or not), and will celebrate the death of the 'Old' cars.
This scenario has been played out in so many interest areas so many time's that it's nearly ridiculous to think about all the permutations that can occur. Even merely sticking to transport power sources, you can go from Sail and rowing to steam and diesel in Ship power, steam and electric to diesel and less electric in rail, horse and cable to electric power in trolleys, and someday perhaps even the yielding of Ion Drives and Solar Sails to the massive power and economy of the Pulsed Fusion drive.
It's fine to have a penchant for the oldest of the subway cars, but to declare the newer stuff irrelevant is to do a massive disservice to the railfan community at large. If something is not documented, it may as well have never happened, least as far as most audiences are concerned, so yes, go out and capture the last days of the redbirds, but don't pass up an oppertunity to photograph the newer cars, other wise railfans in 30 years might think that the only thing operating in the early 2000s were the Redbirds!
*Yes I know that last bit is a gross hyperbole*
For the first IND contract, they wanted to play it safe.
In the early thirties the big advancement was still mainly based on safety, that is the transistion from hi to low voltage for control. In other words, I think that they had no choice, because that was the "new" technology available.
the first time I rode a P&W (Philadelphia & Western RR, Norristown High Speed Line, SEPTA Route 100) Strafford Car, I almost krapt myself with joyous nostalgia, because they sounded and felt like the Delaware River Bridge trains that I had ridden 25 years earlier.
I can talk about this now, I'm retired!
Ditto about the Big Orange South Shore cars. I rode on them for one round trip once, but don't remember if they moaned or groaned.
Even better was that the Redbird set I boarded went EXPRESS! It felt so nice to experience the express run on a Redbird again; nothing better than a rickety ride.
Four Redbirds were running in the direction to Times Sq. Some of them were 9712, 9712 (Subway Series cars), and 9322 and others whose numbers I don't recall. I saw the R33ML consist still sitting in Corona, and I saw another Redbird consist on the yard tracks.
Now that I've ridden a Redbird again, I now just gotta find that R143 Siemens train...
Right, as in these photos. So are there just those two, or are there more?
You've got a picture for everything, don't you?
BTW, is the blue-windowsill Redbird still in service or has it been lost to work service/reefing.
First person who posts the correct answer gets bragging rights, and perhaps brownie points
Buick Century??
Seriously, I'll take a stab and say R-110A as the R-142 would be too obvious.
R-142S (emphasis on the S)
Also, the answer will be confirmed after someone guesses correctly.
Unless it's a BVE audio file..
Is it a Lo-V?
I'll think of something else to guess soon.
Thanks for playing in this round of guess the train!
if anyone has the current assignments as well as how many of each car type that would be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
tim
Time: end of 40s
Thanks if anybody can help
-- Ed Sachs
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I've already looked on the Flushing, Astoria, 2 Av el and 3 Av el pics on
this page.
-Robert King
This was not a negative impression; I just didn't think of Harrison as residential. Thanks for correcting me.
If you haven't read this, this is a classic.
You had to be there.
(I recall they were required for the employees & family event)
I can see a situation where police flag a train that would safely stop with an operator, but since it can't see that it's being flagged, it runs over the poor customer.
A "Farewell to the R-42" Fantrip, of course!
--Mark
til next time
Chaohwa
From Liberty Science Center
From Exchange Place
Last night.
That's what it says. Of course, I was shooting with an assortment of lenses all of which were open to F2.8. Here is the camera data for both shots:
File Name
6F5S1748.TIF
Camera Model Name
Canon EOS-1DS
Shooting Date/Time
9/11/2003 8:38:37 PM
Shooting Mode
Program AE
Tv( Shutter Speed )
0.5
Av( Aperture Value )
2.8
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
400
Lens
70.0 - 200.0 mm
Focal Length
140.0 mm
Image Size
4064x2704
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
One-Shot AF
Parameters
Tone Curve Standard
Sharpness level 0
Pattern sharpness Standard
Color Matrix
1
Noise reduction
Off
File Size
9470KB
File Name
6F5S1867.TIF
Camera Model Name
Canon EOS-1DS
Shooting Date/Time
9/11/2003 11:07:46 PM
Shooting Mode
Program AE
Tv( Shutter Speed )
4
Av( Aperture Value )
2.8
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
28.0 - 70.0 mm
Focal Length
70.0 mm
Image Size
4064x2704
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
Manual Focus
Parameters
Tone Curve Standard
Sharpness level 0
Pattern sharpness Standard
Color Matrix
1
Noise reduction
Off
File Size
8370KB
Remember, these were shot from across the river in NJ. That puts the whole image out at infinity focus. It isn't a crop, it is the entire image - all I did was re-size it to 1024x680 in Photoshop.
You might want to rest the digicam on some stationary surface when taking fotos to avoid blur. Or use a tripod. Those digicams are getting better and better all the time for nite fotoues. They never used to be that good when I was shooting.
AEM7
An R-21/22 work car.
You might want to rest the digicam on some stationary surface when taking fotos to avoid blur. Or use a tripod.
Heh heh, I'm WELL aware of that. The problem is that using a tripod is illegal in the subway system (you know the exceptions...), and I chose not to break that rule. I could have brought along a little toy tripod I have, that works, but I chose not to. I was hoping there would be a place for me to rest the camera on at Smith-9 Sts. It turns out there wasn't, and in light of that fact, if I had the chance to do it over again, maybe I would have brought my little tripod. There were three other photographers (who didn't look like they were from the press) at the station that were using tripods, and one of them even used the flash.
I have used the "resting the camera on a stationary surface" method to get almost every one of the non-blurry underground photos I have posted here in the last 3 months.
Didn't realize you were shooting from the subway (except where there were the F train and the YellowBird.) Sorry
AEM7
BTW: Nice, beautiful photos of the everlasting tribute to the victims of the World Trade Center attack. Saw the lights while on the Manny-B on my way home but I forgot to have a camera with me to take them. There is always next year.
--Mark
That's my building, but that is the roof, not my window. However, my apartment does face the same direction as the photo I took, but on a lower floor. We have the great view looking down Columbus Av towards Columbus Circle and the new Time Warner building.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/081202sept11&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=1&e=52&a=&t=&prev=51
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWAY.pdf
Yes, its completely out of date, and there are some mistakes, but these things take time to do well, and I have had a lot to do for the last three years. There is lots that I would change in the next version to improve it, but I think I will wait until the Manhatten Bridge is sorted out before doing another version.
Note: no arrows to locate station names, no vertical lettering, and not too many extended interchange connectors.
Currently there are no train designations, but I think it should be possible to add small bullets. There is a lot of unused space on the map. Rather than designate stations as express and local, I have tried something different. Hollow station ticks (and interchange symbols) denote that some trains skip these stops, filled station symbols denote that all trans stop at these stations.
NYC has experimented with diagrammatic maps in the past, and given up on them. I would be interested to know whether people think that a map in this style is usable. How much extra detail for people to get from A to B without getting lost? Personally, I think that if I went to A4 size, keeping line thicknesses/letter sizes the same, I could do a very nice map indeed, with all stopping patterns on it, and any other important information that people think I might need.
For those also interested, my fantasy map of the London Underground is still available, at:
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/FantasyMapv2.pdf
As ever, for both maps, constructive comments welcome, destructive comments ignored!
Enjoy.
THIS I'd like to see MTA do. It's almost like maps of yore that did something USEFUL! It's just so ... logical!
KUDOS! :)
There seems to be two camps of thought as to which is most practical - the "street people" who prefer subway maps to be geographically perfect in terms of street grid layout on a "real" map (which is of benefit in people "upstairs" trying to figure out how to get there, and the more esoteric "you're on the subway, here's where you can go and which train you need" in a more general sense. Hope I'm making some sense here, it's a long reach for Unca Selkoik sometimes (like now) ...
But the more I look at it, the more I *LIKE* it! It's so ... "universal" and tourist-friendly ... and I *really* like the style you've gone with since the individual routes cannot have their own colour with circles and diamonds for all ... (still can't fathom what that means - the old colour codes made it pretty easy to determine "rush hour only" or "get bent, it'll be here when it FEELS like.") You'd find your colour train, go look up top and it told you (if you had any concept of what time it was) whether or not you could get there from here. :)
One problem is that services vary somewhat by the time of day and day of week, and your map doesn't reflect the variations very well (then again, neither does NYCT's).
You're not the only one who's had this idea. Here's what Joe Brennan came up with, if you want to compare. (Yours is definitely eaiser to read, IMO; his is more comprehensive and detailed.)
I don't find the current official NYC subway maps to be bad. I think they're pretty good - but they are "busier" than our map and so it is easier for a new traveler in NY to misread them.
Nothing special about the software. I edit the bitmap directly at 72dpi to create an extra-large map using a combination of SuperPaint and Photoshop, both for Mac. This is then 'shrunk to fit'. To give you an idea of size, for a high-resolution map, I work with 80 point font in order to get 1mm high lettering on the map. This probably sounds a bit mad, but I find that vector graphics packages never quite give me the level of control that I want. Once all the basic templates (standard curves etc.) are set up, I can put something together surprisingly quickly. refining it takes longer.
I was finally inspired to put my map up when I purchased a filofax-size NY Subway map from a well-known map manufacturer. Despite being 3 or 4 inches longer than mine, I could barely read it. Thats really what I am aiming for, a very compact but readable map, ideal for rainy windy days, and without saying to the world "I'm a tourist who's lost". The current MTA maps are very attractive and clear, but also very large. There will always be a role for a good geographical map with lines clearly marked on it for people who need to know the nearest station to where they are standing or where they want to go.
Joe Brennan's map is also very nice, but in showing all NYC railways and Subway services, is attempting something different from mine. Its quite similar in concept to the current "London Connections" map, which can currently be downloaded from:
www.nationalrail.co.uk/info/maps/connections.pdf
Joe's map does a far better job than the London map, which I feel is somewhat clunky and nasty to look at. Its not a London Transport production.
If my goal was a map to make available to the general public, I would probably make it double sided with rush hour services on one side, and daytime/evening/weekend services on the other. That would make a lot of things much simpler, including adding line bullets.
Aside from that and other minute errors that others may have spotted, I like your map. Looks very nice and creative.
First, the Hunter College (68 St) station is north of the Lexington Av/63rd St station.
Next, interesting concept of putting the Lenox Avenue and Astoria lines on a diagonal.
Also, the Queens Boulevard Line passes under the Flushing line at the Queens Plaza station, between Queensboro Plaza and 33rd Street on the Flushing Line.
Also, it would be helpful to put a map legend in the area of the Roundel.
Other than that, good effort!
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/FantasyMapv2.pdf
Good job on those maps! Keep it up 8-)
I shall take it on my next trip over (if that's OK with you).
Simon
Swindon UK
Other than that, pretty cool! It could work.
But for making it just for fun it's really good.
Nitpick: Van Cortlandt Park, likewise Cortlandt St.
Chaohwa
During the early to mid '90s, if there was a problem dispatching Slant R40s to the "B", they would borrow cars from the "N"-which at that time were operating R32s and R68s (2770 and up).
wayne
That included R16s, R27-30s, rebuilt redbird R30/30As, R32s, R40s, R42s and R68s.
Admittedly, SUVs and Metro-North both influence this.
NY Times article
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/nyregion/12TRAI.html
Looks like my children will be taking their children to pick apples in Washington County someday.
Not 'til I get home.
Once you have a userID you should be able to read the articles without logging in each time.
Looks like my children will be taking their children to pick apples in Dutchess County someday.
Manhattan Island is already gone. You want to go where it's pretty, it's now a 2 hour 15 minute ride from Brooklyn -- with a good horse.
Looks like my children will be taking their children to pick apples in Westchester County someday.
The quality of Metro North service in that area as well as the number of jobs that have expanded outside the city -- particularly north of the city -- seem to be definite impacts. But I don't get the SUV reference.
Disclaimer -- I hate SUV's just as much as the next guy, I just don't see why we're blaming them here.
CG
I admit, it was a cheap shot. But since SUV's disproportionally pollute and waste energy, I don't feel badly about it.
But that ain't even true. Today's SUV's emit far less particulate matter than a small truck of the 1980s. If you compare the energy use -- let's say we proxy that in terms of gas mileage -- well, typical SUV's of today gets you about 25-30 mpg, with some lower. The old Volvo stationwagons (I happen to know someone who owns one) of the 1980s give you about 12-15mpg. The old clunkers on the road are far more wasteful than new SUV's.
If you take a look at the fleet profile, people in the suburbs around large metropolitan areas are driving more and more SUV's, while people in the rural parts of the countries are still driving Jeeps, Chervolet pickups (such as the JIMMY model and its predecessors), and some of them are still driving those 1970s LARGE stationwagons. They don't have any money to upgrade their fleet. Who is more polluting on a per-capita basis? Now don't forget, the rural folks drive much more VMT per capita than the suburbanites.
There is a flip side to every coin.
AEM7
Let's see... Chevy Suburban/Cadillac Escalade, 12 mpg... Mercedes ML320, 15 mpg... H2 Hummer (the "small" one), 11 mpg... Chevy Trailblazer, 14 mpg... Ford Explorer, 17 mpg... Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute, 18 mpg...
Those are the "typical" ones, at least here in New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe the manufacturer-quoted numbers are higher -- if they are not, it makes me wonder how Volvo ever got their heavy stationwagons to go at 12mpg... So has all the energy efficiency research into better engines in the past 20 years gone to the sh**t?
AEM7
And we'd believe the manufacturer over an independent analysis why?
The EPA (source: edmunds.com) rates the 2004 Chevy Suburban at 13 city, 17 highway; GM claims 14 city, 18 highway. The smaller Blazer, in 4.6L V-6, RWD configuration, is rated at 15/19 by EPA, 17/23 by GM.
A 1985 Volvo wagon, per U.S. Department of Energy, gets 23 city, 28 highway. Maybe your friend's Volvo should be maintained better.
Basically, yes, because automakers emphasize performance.
Once upon a time, in 1936, an engineer came up with a carbureator that preheated the fuel entering it from the fuel tank, and resulted in a more efficient combustion cycle, mostly because it took a smaller amount of fuel to get an efficient explosion (complete burn-off of the fuel molecules, or as near complete as you can reasonably get). Trouble was, smaller amount of fuel igniting = lower power, so the car equipped with this 200 mpg carbureator accelerated with all the pep of a garden snail.
Things haven't changed that much since then for cars and light trucks.
However, for heavy trucks (18 wheelers) there has been some improvement in mileage and pollution. When J.B. Hunt replaces a three axle tractor of 1975 vintage with a new one of 2003 vintage, and hooks it up to a 2-axle trailer, it has accomplished some savings (assuming the truck is properly cared for, of course).
Maybe I'm reading this wrong - it's been a few years since I barely passed Thermodynamics - but it seems like you're putting in more thermal energy, and getting less power. That's less efficient.
As an aside, cars from the late '60s on had preheaters. Heat was supplied through a duct from the exhaust manifold to the air intake. It did diddly-squat.
And I'm not surprised about the preheaters. The concept must have looked good on paper.
The inventor I spoke of was Charles Pogue. At least he accomplished something - but the trade-off was too disadvantageous to be adopted by industry.
Heck, it only takes 26 minutes on the train.
CG
Let's do it the proper way:
Average SUV (depending on which one) sold today averages between 12-18 mpg. Anonymous listed some of them. On the other hand, automobiles which seat 5 people are widely available which can reach 28-30 mpg. People here are buying far more SUVs than other types, driving alone and living in suvburbs where the "utility" in SUV isn't even used. And, to top it off, SUV purchases are often subsidized with tax breaks, rewarding an SUV purchase.
We drive a Ford Focus wagon that is listed at 33 mpg but averages 27-28 mpg.
"Today's SUV's emit far less particulate matter than a small truck of the 1980s."
True, but only relevant if a given SUV is purchased to replace an existing truck. And a diesel-powered SUV emits far more pollutant than a gas-powered one, or a gas-powered economy car, which is all the typical SUV ddriver needs in capability anyway.
"If you compare the energy use -- let's say we proxy that in terms of gas mileage -- well, typical SUV's of today gets you about 25-30 mpg, with some lower."
False statement. Cut your figures in half.
"The old Volvo stationwagons (I happen to know someone who owns one) of the 1980s give you about 12-15mpg. The old clunkers on the road are far more wasteful than new SUV's."
Funny. My father owned a Volvo station wagon in 1972 which was a stick shift and achieved quite a bit better than that. About 20 mpg.
"If you take a look at the fleet profile, people in the suburbs around large metropolitan areas are driving more and more SUV's,"
Taxpayer subsidized waste
" while people in the rural parts of the countries are still driving Jeeps, Chervolet pickups"
At least the farmers actually need the capabilility those vehicles represent. A farmer replacing his Ford F350 with a new one makes sense (if he's a cattle rancher, he probably also likes his Robinson or Hughes 300 piston-powered helicopter - it comes in handy.
If you insist on polluting, fine. Pay an appropriate differential for the right to pollute (a market in credits would be OK by me), forget tax breaks unless there is a documented need for a large vehicle with a gas guzzling engine) and I'm fine with it.
I doubt those statistics would be as glaring today, since the 70's era cars have been largely replaced -- though the degree to which they've been replaced varies by region.
CG
That's why I'd like to see tax breaks for buying cars with smaller bore 4-cylinder engines.
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
smells like a steak and seats thirty-five..
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down,
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown!
Canyonero! (Yah!) Canyonero!
[Krusty:] Hey Hey
The Federal Highway comission has ruled the
Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving.
Canyonero!
12 yards long, 2 lanes wide,
65 tons of American Pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero! Canyonero! (Yah!)
She blinds everybody with her super high beams,
She's a squirrel crushing, deer smacking, driving machine!
Canyonero!-oh woah, Canyonero! (Yah!)
Drive Canyonero!
Woah Canyonero!
Woah!
Simpsons stuff
Now imagine that the Dutch zoned the whole thing R1-1 with a 0.50 FAR, and everyone had to commute to New Jersey for work :^)
You're correct in that observation. Hell, I can remember seeing model homes for sale (Squirrel Hill Homes, in Brentwood) going for 16K and 20K, new homes with 1/3 acre lots. Greed has made prices like that become extinct. How the hell can any young people plan to stick around with new homes averaging 3 to 4 hundred thousand bucks? What are they supposed to do?
So we'll pave everything over and sit in traffic, but it's not because better alternatives have not been identified.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2855500833&category=15687
40-23
Also, any idea as to who's going to be where when the Redbird retirement will be completed?
1716 on the 7.
the Redbird should be complete by early next year (2004), but don't hold your breath-it may be this fall!
-Stef
wayne
Exactly the reason why I can't keep a straight face in 1977 or 1982.
Car 2020 reminds me too much of the ABC show.
wayne
wayne
-Stef
wayne
Too bad the REST OF IT has not yet been realized...coughSecondAvenueSubwaycough...
That is also why the C was moved to Washington Hts. on weekdays, so that it had the same service 7 days a week 0600-2300.
The W change is really an unrelated extra line to give more local service from Astoria to Lower Manhattan along Broadway on weekdays.
You know what change is also needed? Have the late-night #6 go to Bowling Green rather than Bklyn Br. to make for a more frequent transfer to/from Bway-Nassau late-night A trains (and their subsequent timed connection with the F at Jay St.)
Well, you got it at the top of your post: The Bridge is Re-opening!
OK, lets look at the trains, at both ends of the trains.
The (D) is a FULL TIME 24/7 service.
If it runs on the Brighton, then the (Q) becomes a part-time service.
Then what would be the Full-Time Broadway train? The (W)?
The TA ballanced the lines and services well. It *could* have been done otherwise, but there would have been major changes *somewhere*.
I had a different idea for this service, but this one works just fine.
Elias
Please explain?
Thank you.
But instead of restoring service the way it was, giving Brighton back D service, they have decided for reasons known only to them to put the D on the West End line and substitute a part time B service on the Brighton line which would not operate when I'm coming back from a Yankee game. Of course the people who are not involved shrug their shoulders and say, change at Union Square, change at Atlantic Avenue, perhaps change at Pacific Street (as they have not announced whether the D will be stopping at DeKalb when the Bis not running). Late at night, that can add as much as 30 minutes to your ride home, right!
So Brighton Yankee fans are indeed being screwed in favour of West End Yankee fans who will now have the one train ride home which is something they did not have previusly.
One person's gain is the other person's screwing.
How do I find the post # and access it?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=563667
Then hit ENTER. That should take you to it.
But coming home after a night game, since headways are 20 minutes so you take a #4 to Union Square and take the 5 minute walk to the transfer and miss a Q train by 30 seconds...now you have another 20 minute way till the next train, right....that translates into an additional 30 minutes for the ride home. That is certainly most inconvenient to what we once had until the service was taken away under the guise of repairing the bridge and we assumed it would return as was....
If that doesn't seem to you to be a royal screwing, I don't know what is.
To answer your question, that is what I call a ROYAL SCREWING.
By the way, I forgot about the "lovely GOs" the TA always like to inflict on us from time to time.
Thanks for bringing that up.
I eventually resorted to the awful Q54-Q11 bus option.
20=30? The FDIV Pentium Bug can't calculate such errors.
Which calculator do you use?
Waiting 20 minutes for the next train causes in additional 20 minutes
to get home - except the train delays by 10 minutes - but the train you
missed can also get a delay of 10 minutes.
Why can't MTA on nights of Yankee games run special B service through to the Brighton line?
>Why can't MTA on nights of Yankee games run special B service through to
>the Brighton line?
Ask the MTA - not me.
The (B) is going to be the Brighton express - but what would you do
with the passengers from local stations. When the (B) is regular running
(before the game) it's skipping the local stops and the fan from there
can only use the Q.
When will this happen and is it going to be the Central Park West Express as well?
N Bwy
as it today
The Union Square transfer is quite easy and short and takes at most 2 minutes if you do not have a disability.
Why can't the MTA on nights of Yankee games run special service to EVERY station in the system? What makes the Brighton line so special?
In other words, adjust to the new service pattern and stop whining.
Besides, every Brighton rider who gets screwed out of a 1 seat ride to Yankee stadium will be offset by a West End rider who gains one. For evening home games on weeknights, it will be the B, not D, which provides the 1 seat ride going to Yankee Stadium, as the D express bypasses 161st St.
When the B is running, use it. If you had the D, it would be 3 minutes saved on CPW, and that time would probably be lost running local in Brooklyn!
When the B is not running, you must then take the Q to Atlantic or wherever for the D or 4. So what if there's no direct train from Brighton to Yankee Stadium during off hours? Fourth Ave has been in this situation forever! Now it's Brighton's turn. Says a lot considering I'm a Brighton regular.
It might even be practical if you're far out enough along the Brighton Line riding the Q train to CI for the B.
Oh no! The D is running local in Brooklyn?
Yeah it really is a big thing for the Brighton but so what? I don't mind making the tranfser at Atlantic Av for the 4. Sure people might be 'incinvenicnced' by having to take a 2 seat ride but that's what it is and we can't do anything about it.
The MTA will likewise be suing the rapper Jay-Z.
you take the #2 or #5 to Sterling Street
Or the Q and/or the D and/or the B whenever to Prospect Park.
Then there are the #41, #47, #48, #49 buses...
But I haven't been there in about 46 years so I am not aware how much service MTA runs after Brooklyn Dodger night games.
In simple terms, 57th/6th is no longer available as a terminus. Therefore the old patterns from the days when both sides of the MB were last open CANNOT be restored.
Something has to change from the 1985 pattern. The only question is what.
That has not reduced the number of termini at the North end of the 6th Av line.
Before 63rd St, they were:
1) 205th St (EXP)
2) BPB or 168th St or 145th St (EXP)
3) 57/6 (LCL/EXP)
4) 179th St (LCL)
For many years, that became:
1) 205th St (EXP)
2) BPB or 168th St or 145th St (EXP)
3) 21/Queensbridge (LCL/EXP)
4) 179th St (LCL)
And now it is:
1) 205th St (EXP)
2) BPB or 168th St or 145th St (EXP)
3) 179th St (LCL/EXP)
4) Continental (LCL)
Still 4 options, so really nothing's changed in that respect. The B/D switch is just a consistency thing.
If the TA wanted (and I can see why they don't), they COULD have a service pattern where whatever used to terminate at 57/6 would go to 179th St (on the current F Line) and the F Line would run on the V (ie LOCAL to Continental) in Queens.
1. When the B is not running, will the MTA commit to guarantee D trains will stop at DeKalb thus providing a same platform transfer for Brighton riders?
2. Will they see to it late at night that people coming back from a Yankee game do not have to wait 20 minutes or more for the next Q train at DeKalb if they do #1. Really a simple question but an important one for many of the Brighton riders.
Believe me I understand the B service they will be providing is almost identical to the D service that once was there (although I would call the B the D for historic purposes but what the hell). We are talking about what happens when the B is not running.
Or perhaps they should run B service from Yankee Stadium after the games to meet the needs of Brighton riders who do feel they are being given the royal shaft on this issue (besides the fact that people going to NYU get the same mistreatment when the B is not running to W 4th and coming home from class at night could mean an extra 30 minutes.
Redirecting to http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=564201
My purpose was to have an interesting thread and it turned out to be; always enjoy those who like to defend the establishment in this case the MTA's decision makers.
But in all seriousness, there are a couple of things that come out of it.
1. Will the West End trains always stop at DeKalb when the 6th Avenue trains are not running on the Brighton (notice no letters).
2. And this is one we'll never know, would MTA have decided to make this change if Manny had not gone down?
Finally it just goes to show that changes may have undesirable consequences for many even if they seem to be good!
Of course! No service pattern is a panacea. No matter what, lots of people are going to have to transfer to reach their destination. No matter what (unless we do away with all expresses), some people are going to be bypassed by the train they need; no matter what (unless we do away with all locals), some people are going to have to sit through a few stops they don't need. The question isn't whether a proposed service pattern is perfect for every trip, since that's impossible -- it's whether it provides the best possible trip for the most people. I think NYCT's proposal comes pretty close to that ideal. It's not perfect; I've suggested a small emendation that I think makes it even better. (Incidentally, NYCT's proposal gives me a two-seat ride to work rather than the three-seat ride I have now and I would have under my emended proposal. That doesn't affect my opinion that my emendation is better for the ridership at large, even if it's not better for me personally.)
NYCT polled riders on the Brighton and West End lines. Both responded that they prefer Broadway service over 6th Avenue service, by wide margins. (That doesn't mean that everyone prefers Broadway service all the time -- only that a large majority does, most of the time.) As the Brighton line has greater ridership than the West End line, the Brighton line got full-time Broadway access while the West End lost its Broadway access entirely. I'm sure that those who were polled took Yankee Stadium into account (that is, those who happen also to be Yankee fans) -- but, seeing as they also use the train to go to other places, generally with much greater frequency, most of them cast their votes in favor of Broadway even though they'd occasionally have to transfer.
I wish I knew who these riders were: what socio-economic background they come from and whether they come from south or north of Newkirk Avenue.
Anyway, You got to be 100 percent sure that the majority of these rider who won't be hurt are the majority of riders who uses the system. They must come first since without them, they wouldn't be a system.
It is my belief that quite a few riders heading to upper manhattan and the bronx will be most affected by this service change. What was once a one seat ride, will turn into a two seat nightmare.
If they are going to improve service and simplified things, why don't they put the "Q" on fourth avenue (via west end) and the B/D on the Brighton. Make the "D" express and the "B" local.
If individuals want the Broadway Line, they can switch at Dekalb Avenue.
It will be direct service.. 6th Avenue belongs on Brighton, and 4th Avenue belongs to the Broadway Lines. No one will ever get lost in this system because using color coding to symbolize routing is much easier to recognize than what currently exist today.
"As the Brighton line has greater ridership than the West End line, the Brighton line got full-time Broadway access while the West End lost its Broadway access entirely."
SO WHAT! Broadway still controls the majority of 4th Avenue. AND IT SHOULD!
N Broadway Line
Two seat rides are hardly a nightmare. Did anyone complain in 1919 at the former 1 seat ride from Brooklyn Bridge to 96/Broadway becoming a 3 seat ride?
If they are going to improve service and simplified things, why don't they put the "Q" on fourth avenue (via west end) and the B/D on the Brighton. Make the "D" express and the "B" local.
For a start the B is the part time line, so it should be the Express.
If individuals want the Broadway Line, they can switch at Dekalb Avenue.
And which Broadway Line trains would they be able to transfer on to? Answer: the R train only (unless you extend the W train to Brooklyn in place of the M train). Either way, it's a long slow ride on the local from De Kalb to 14th St.
Anybody with a brain (sorry, N Broadway Line, you don't qualify) would walk to Chambers Street/W Bway. North of there, the east and west side lines become farther apart.
Hmm, that scenario is going to be a interesting one. Seeing the 6 Av line [the B] is going to be part time, it looks like the D would switch from Pacific onto the 'local' track so people wouldn't have to use the long tranfser at Pacific St. Also people could just get off at 34 St seeing that more people seem to be heading NORTH via CPW express. Also people would have Grand St once again and wouldn't have to depend on the F and the shuttle or have to get off at Canal and walk, which added time to the people's commutes around Chinatown.
2. And this is one we'll never know, would MTA have decided to make this change if Manny had not gone down?
Highly unlikely but you never know. Eventually the south side would of been reopened but it could of been sooner or later. I'm sure the M wouldn't have been restored to 9 Av in the midday had it not been for this.
The R143 side is visually more appealing even if just because of the bend at belt height.
Chuck Greene
Elias
Dave Pirmann also brings up a good point about the red strip and wheelchair-access signage on the R142's.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Only things I didn't like about them: The lighting, I feel like i'm in a hospital, if i thought about this, and the time I was with this one girl, I'd probably want to wait until an older train with dimmer lighting. I also didn't get how it seems the subways area all color coordinated, why does the front/back LCD display only have the route in red?
I can see why a lot of you guys don't like them though, it's the same with me. If i went to philly tomorrow, i'd want to ride on the Neoplans and NABI's buses again instead of the low-floor new flyers(I HATE low floors).
I think someone posted on here a few weeks ago the LCD's are able to change colors, I'm not sure if he was confirmed or not, but it was the first thing I've noticed that didn't make any logical sense.
I agree with Dave P. and others that the stripe on the outside would look much better extended over the length of the car. Overall, the interiors are well-designed and the strip maps and other signs useful.
It's too bad the Flushing line isn't getting a new fleet of these. The R62A's on the 7 line look like hand-me-downs from an older sibling.
I know similar stats exist for Buenos Aires (76% within about 1/4 mile when their extensions and new lines are complete) and Paris (they claim 100% within 1/4 mile)- has the MTA published a stat for New York?
No, but it's an intersting question. Once the Journey to Work file comes out, it could be tabulated by place of residence and place of work.
I'd add in the commuter railroads too.
Why should the journey to work file be necessary? All you need to know are the census tract figures and the location of subway stations. A person should be counted as living within 1/2 mile of a subway station, whether he takes a subway, walks, takes a car or is unemployed.
For its size, Chicago has decent coverage with the 'L' and the buses.
Jim K.
Chicago
Busses run at least every four blocks or so in any direction except in the neighborhoods on the edge of the far north and far south sides.
So I'd think it's over 90% live at least within 3 blocks of a bus ("surface transit"). Not as cool as streetcars, but still transit.
I say here that this was a national policy from high - and in many cases - staff enjoyed the relief from boredom and the interaction with another human being it engendered.Now cab riding without cause and without authorisation / cab passes is a discplinary offence for all parties.
Just curious as to how this applies in NYC - it certainly is still fairly common still here - (despite comments above) - appreciate not much room in the old cabs for 2 or more riders.Traincrew said they prefferedit to mixing in uniform with the passengers - especially at anti social hours.
But how do you even 'authorize' someone to ride in a cab? Let's suppose the General Manager wanted to go out and see his railroad. Would he be permitted to ride in a cab? He clearly had no reason to be there, and is a distraction to traincrew. Only someone with operating responsibilities (such as a traction inspector) would need to be there to check traincrew compliance.
Just curious as to how this applies in NYC - it certainly is still fairly common still here - (despite comments above) - appreciate not much room in the old cabs for 2 or more riders.
On the NYCsubway, there is something called a trip stop. That means, if you pass a red signal, your train will go into emergency brake. It cannot be cancelled, except by the traincrew waiting for the train to come to a complete stop, going outside the cab and resetting a switch. Thus other off-duty crewmember riding in cabs really isn't that much of a concern.
AEM7
Except to the T/O who is distracted by his guest and runs the red light, causing the BIE. If I recall correctly, that violation results in dismissal.
There are other reasons for tripping: grade timers, speed limits on curves etc.
Please note that a distraction in the cab (like a guest) can cause something similar to what happened not too long ago: the train engineer misses a Restricting or Approach signal, comes to a Stop Signal protecting an interlocking, and even if he/she obeys the Stop Signal, it's too late because the train is going too fast. The result is people get killed or injured.
So everyone, regardless of level of training, could use a failsafe backup.
As I said, such problems can be remedied by appropiate rulebook changes to foster a subconsious routein that is resistant to any and all distractions.
In the specific case, maybe. But there are times when you could be wrong.
You can be as well-trained as you want; if you are distracted, emotionally or otherwise, in an Acela going 150 mph, and you blow through a restricting signal because your attention was elsewhere for too long, you're in trouble. No rulebook will ever help you with that, once it has happened.
It doesn't have to be Acela; it can be that 100-car long coal train going 50 mph headed toward a decline.
It can even affect the consequences of an accident. For example, if a car or truck or person is stuck in a grade crossing, a distracted crew can miss an opportunity to buy some time by going BIE. The train won't stop in time to prevent the collision, but give somebody a few more seconds and maybe he can jump clear.
The rulebook isn't everything. A failsafe can do for a train what a "wing-leveler" can do for a disabled pilot - save him from crashing long enough for him to regai control.
Didn't work in Secaucus in the mid-90s when the NJT train overran a red and stopped right in the path of another train at the merge on the way in to Hoboken.
Not that distraction was the problem there. Are there more fail-safe systems in effect now?
After that accident I recall reading an article in the paper. In the aftermath, the paper said, that NJ Transit was planning to attach trips to their signals (and modify their trains accordingly).
Obviously, that didn't happen. Someone must've been smoking something bad to come up with such an idea. Even if a subway-style trip was there, I can't see how it would've helped a diesel that blew past the red @50mph. As I recall, that engineer did realize his mistake immediately after hitting the signal, and dumped, but -- obviously -- it didn't help.
Incidentally, today was the first time I was on a NEC train that went through (and stopped) at Secaucus during daylight hours. Quite interesting: the NEC there has two island platforms, and one side platform. I can't see the demand for so much platform capacity.
Also: on the west end a pair of switches coming off both sides of an island platform ends up in a very short track with a bumper block -- an obvious provision for stowing away a two-car shuttle between Secaucus and NYPenn for an off-hours Main/Bergen connection without a connecting NEC train. Or, for a work train, perhaps.
The result was the disasterous SES system which was thankfully only installed on the PVL. Unlike the standard CSS which DOES provides for overspeed protection, SES would send a train BIE for even a 1mph overspeed. Engineers had their attention so fixated upon the speedo that they were unable to pay attention to things like debris or people on the track. The only reason that SES has not been removed was that they obtained a targeted federal grant for it and could not spend the $$ on anything else.
The ironic thing is that the site of the afformentioned accident, WEST END interlocking still lacks any sort of cab signal protection as does Hoboken Terminal and the Main Line up to the Kearney Connection and.
Quite interesting: the NEC there has two island platforms, and one side platform. I can't see the demand for so much platform capacity.
The purpose is for flexibility in platforming trains.
Also: on the west end a pair of switches coming off both sides of an island platform ends up in a very short track with a bumper block -- an obvious provision for stowing away a two-car shuttle between Secaucus and NYPenn for an off-hours Main/Bergen connection without a connecting NEC train. Or, for a work train, perhaps.
Errr, no. Tube slots would never be wasted on a shuttle train. Off peak hours are used for maintainance. The stub track will be used either for the protect engine or for a power change engine.
That interlock is no more. All four tracks run straight through to Secaucus.
Can you confirm that all 4 tracks go straight through? I would have thought they might have left a single track connector to access Croxan yard and associated industrial tracks.
Here is the part of the interlocking that has been drastically altered or eliminated. Note all the END ATC signs.
Here is the ladder track to access the West End Wye. I am certain this segment of the interlocking is still in place.
Everything from there to ther bumper post at Hoboken has no ATC/ATS protection at all.
All four tracks in the first picture now run straight through to Secaucus. At least this was the case as of three weeks ago. The second leftmost track was completely ripped out, and carted away. The ties from the leftmost track were also gone, but the rails themselves were still there, rusting at the edge of the ballasted area. Both sets of rails were moved off to the side, and dumped, a few inches apart from each other. Maybe they're going to put in new ties, and put that track back at some point in the future.
The current leftmost track still veers just slightly off to the side, in order to go around that big signal pole -- which is still in place -- then it comes back and keeps going to Secaucus. The new fourth track from Secaucus was layed a long time ago. It came up almost all the way to the former merge, and the final connection was made on the last weekend of the cutover to the connector.
After Secaucus, the two leftmost tracks now bank steeply eastward, then go back on the existing Bergen line trackage. Just before the bridge, the leftmost track connects with a switch that goes to the freight yard that starts right across from the former Harmon Cove station.
The speed limit from Secaucus to Hackensack bridge on the Bergen line looks to be about 35MPH, because of the sharp curves. The curves are so deep that even at this restricted speed you still feel the wheels skidding against the rails.
NJ Transit keeps slowing down with each passing year. Two new stations have slowed things a bit down on the NEC. Secaucus now adds at least 1-2 minutes to Bergen/Pascack Valley line trains, as they crawl through those curves, more if they stop there.
Cab passes are as rare as hens teeth !
In the old days, I had one -- it was a badly laminated piece of paper, printed on inkjet paper. It had no photo, no ID, except my name, and I was supposed to use it with an employee ID.
If I ever rode up front I usually pay attention to signals, but not everyone who had cab passes had signalling knowledge -- even mine was far from complete.
AEM7
It was not unusual for "the bosses" to ride the head end. The rule was there were only three total persons allowed on the head end of an MU and RDC and four on a diesel cab unit. On the 5:09 PM to Doylestown, there were always two suits riding the head end.
The road foreman of engines and the division superintendent made many trips on the head end to "discuss" the rode with the engineers. Some engineers didn't like the "company", but there was little choice. I think that even the dispatchers had pass authority to ride the head end.
While I was a "guest" on the head end from time to time, the invite was always after the train left Wayne Junction. This was 30 years ago and the Reading Company Engineman who allowed me to ride the head is has since passed.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
This practice is even necessary for crewmembers who are trying to qualify (route knowledge) over a specific line. My Amtrak tower operator friend makes head-end videos from the cabs of Amtrak locomotives. This is not an isolated occurance as many railroaders suppliment their income in this way, freight and passenger.
Naturally - the likes of myself as an Operations Manager clamped down on it - quoting SPADS (signals passed at danger) and other operating mishaps as a root cause of such behaviour.
If you want to avoid SPAD* events you should adopt the same policy the FRA utilizes. Any engineer who committs a Rule 292 violation is taken out of service on the spot and is summarily de-certified, often meaning the loss of his job and seriously endangering his future career as a railroader. This is more than enough to make engineers pay attention, even if they have a party in the cab with everyone invited. There also exists a rule that all persons riding in the cab must verbally call each signal and if one of more crew members disagree as to the signal aspect, the more restrictive aspect is followed.
*I take serious issue with the UK obsession with "SPAD" events as you make no distinction between absolute and permissive signals. You also make no attempt to work speed control into your signal rules. If you want to improve safety require your drivers to, upon passing a signal at Caution to reduce speed to that not exceeding 30mph and be prepared to stop at next signal and upon passing a signal at Advance Caution to reduce speed to that not exceeding a speed determined by yourself within the range 45-60 mph. The requirement to bring their train under speed control in responce to signal indication will make and distractive effects much less distracting.
There are no permissive signals in the UK, except signals that have been explicitly fitted with a permissive light (i.e. similar to Lunar White on CSX). The permissive light in the UK is a small white light, and is not really used on the mainline except in station areas and only used to couple stock.
All signals are therefore absolute. I think you mean the difference between an automatic and an interlocking signal. The reality on the UK railroad network is that almost every signal you run will cause an accident. In station areas, bidirectional working (Rule 261) is commonplace, so if you pass a signal there is no telling where you're going to end up. On mainlines, bidirectional working is not usually employed, so you're okay for a while if you pass an automatic signal at danger. But wait, why was the signal at danger in the first place? The train in front of it is probably stopped, or moving slowly. With UK-sized block lengths, it's a matter of 30-90 seconds before you hit the train in front.
signal at Advance Caution to reduce speed to that not exceeding a speed determined by yourself within the range 45-60 mph.
75 mph is the standard.
The requirement to bring their train under speed control in responce to signal indication will make and distractive effects much less distracting
This is called defensive driving, and is regularly taught to train operators. The problem is that if you require drivers to crawl at 30mph throughout an entire block when the signal is showing 'Caution', in many key locations you would be causing a serious back-up. For example, on entry to Cambridge station, you have a signal outside the station (I forget the numbers) and there is one half way down the platform, and one at the end of the platform (starting signal). If the signal half-way down the platform is at Stop, and you have a 12-car train coming from London that is waiting to dock, you will get a Caution entering the station. If you crawl through that interlocking at 30mph (versus 50mph or so they normally do it at), you've just prevented the next outbound from departing ontime.
AEM7
That isn't so difficult, is it? :0)
Yes, which is the problem. Overuse of STOP results in a lack of proper respect. The original british manual block system was heavily based on the concept of absolute and permissive signals and it is a concept that should be re-embraced.
The reality on the UK railroad network is that almost every signal you run will cause an accident.
How so? First of all, all the signals have overlaps and second of all, if you run past an intermediate signal, then maintain restricted speed you won't hit anything.
But wait, why was the signal at danger in the first place? The train in front of it is probably stopped, or moving slowly. With UK-sized block lengths, it's a matter of 30-90 seconds before you hit the train in front.
That's the point of restircted speed, a concept it seems familliar to railroads everywhere except the UK. If after passing a signal set at permissive danger you maintain a speed under 20mph, being able to stop within half vision and short of any train, open switch and looking out for broken rail you'll be perfectly fine.
75 mph is the standard.
That's hardly a standard at all!!! The whole point of the 30mph and 45/60mph (if necessary) is to space trains out. You aren't going to get to your destination before the guy in front of you, that much is certain. If you can fly by on yellows you become complaciant and this leads to an out of control SPAD which can result in to a collosion. Here, this website can enlighten you:
The "Riding the Yellows" Problem
This is called defensive driving, and is regularly taught to train operators.
Trains are not busses. While a professional engineer is the best safety system there is, the profesionalism can only be counted upon under the dicipline of an unambigious and fully objective set of rules. If you are going deligate most of the operating style to a drivers own personal skill and and judgement you will also need loads of safety equipment (trips and timers) to stay safe. These devices will totally strangle opperational flexibility as seen on the NYCS.
For example, on entry to Cambridge station, you have a signal outside the station (I forget the numbers) and there is one half way down the platform, and one at the end of the platform (starting signal). If the signal half-way down the platform is at Stop, and you have a 12-car train coming from London that is waiting to dock, you will get a Caution entering the station. If you crawl through that interlocking at 30mph (versus 50mph or so they normally do it at), you've just prevented the next outbound from departing ontime.
You are forgetting that you begin to decelerate to 30 after passing the Caution signal, but otherwise I'd say good. Having a train bear gown on a stop signal at 50mph with nothing but the drivers good judgement of when to begin braking to stop it is an accident waiting to happen. Anyway, the next outbound should have been properly staged as to avoid a conflicting movement through the interlocking.
Incorrect. All signals have overlap but the distance is 200 ft. This 200ft is to allow you to stop from about 10mph in bad weather/rail conditions. It's not designed so that you can run past it and not run into anything.
Secondly, if you have a disabled train, and you run past the STOP signal protecting the disabled train, you will hit it, even at restricted speed, if you are not paying attention. If restricted speed was 15mph (or one-half the distance you can see to be clear), then you'd almost certainly see it -- but why rely on the engineer to operate on sight when you can use signals to stop them, and get them to pay attention to signals instead of obstruction? There have been many accidents that have occured because of failure to protect a standing train (e.g. the 1975 accident on the Perth-Dundee mainline, when a disabled train was hit in rear because the crew failed to carry out flagging protecting, thinking that their train was about to get under way). If the engineers on the train behind would have not passed the STOP signal, accident would not have occured. Permissive operations will simply make this problem worse, since engineers will get used to not stopping at permissive STOPs, increasing the risk to a standing train.
being able to stop within half vision and short of any train, open switch and looking out for broken rail you'll be perfectly fine.
Ouch! This sounds like how they operate the Green Line, not a railroad. In low density zones, I can see a scheme like this working. In a high-density zone where there are lots of trains moving, this is just inviting disaster.
If you can fly by on yellows you become complaciant and this leads to an out of control SPAD which can result in to a collosion.
The 'fly by on yellow' phenomenon (which is more likely to be fly-by on double-yellow) is why you need speed signalling. Double yellow is 75mph, single yellow is 30mph and be prepared to stop at next signal. Your scheme would constrain the line capacity to the longest block on the whole line, and results in wasted capacity. The block locations are not necessarily logical. On the G&SW for example, the block times from New Cumnock going southbound are: 6 mins, 7 mins, 16 mins, 5 mins. If you had to slow down to 30mph because you get hit with a 30mph right before the 16mins block, your line capacity will be two trains an hour. If you can allow the engineer to run on yellow at high speeds until right before the next signal, your line capacity will be pretty close to being full.
AEM7
The not hitting anything is dependent upon maintaining restricted speed.
If restricted speed was 15mph (or one-half the distance you can see to be clear), then you'd almost certainly see it -- but why rely on the engineer to operate on sight when you can use signals to stop them, and get them to pay attention to signals instead of obstruction?
You keep trains moving and you can use what is normally wasted track space. Small delays won't ripple all the way back down the line as you have some slack space where following trains can absorb the delay. Look how much success American railroads have had employing cab signal without fixed wayside signal systems with absolute stop only given at interlockings.
have been many accidents that have occured because of failure to protect a standing train (e.g. the 1975 accident on the Perth-Dundee mainline, when a disabled train was hit in rear because the crew failed to carry out flagging protecting, thinking that their train was about to get under way). If the engineers on the train behind would have not passed the STOP signal, accident would not have occured.
Yes, and if you only had one train operating in the whole country you wouldn't have collisions either. Had the following driver had a more exact notion of restricted speed drilled into him from day one of driver training and then had to face surprise tests of his restricted speed skills in the field I don't think the collision would have happened either.
Permissive operations will simply make this problem worse, since engineers will get used to not stopping at permissive STOPs, increasing the risk to a standing train.
That's the point of rule 291, STOP and PROCEED (at restricted speed). Your arguement should be more directed at Amtrak who is seeking, in practice, to eliminate Rule 290, Restricting and replace it with Rule 291 at interlockings. The reason for this is that Rule 291 requires one less position light bulb. Engineers operating on Amtrak now generally treat a rule 291 just like a Rule 290. Anyway, the thing is that you have two different signal aspects for permissive STOP and absolute STOP. If you drivers can't tell between signal aspects, you have a much bigger problem.
Ouch! This sounds like how they operate the Green Line, not a railroad. In low density zones, I can see a scheme like this working. In a high-density zone where there are lots of trains moving, this is just inviting disaster.
There has never been a problem on any of the hi-density routes we have here like the LIRR, MNRR, NJT, Amtrak, SEPTA, etc. In fact, on both the LIRR and MNRR they don't have intermediate wayside signals. The cab signal will drop to restricting and then the engineer proceeds at restricted speed until the cab signal changes.
On the G&SW for example, the block times from New Cumnock going southbound are: 6 mins, 7 mins, 16 mins, 5 mins.
What the heck sort of block takes 16 minutes to traverse? At reasonable speeds that block is between 10 and 16 miles long. I don't even think you can even get a track circut to carry that far. ABS blocks are upto about 3 miles in length. The blocks you are citing sound like MBS blocks which is a completely different thing. Anyway, this situation would be a kob for either rule 280a, clear to next interlocking, where trains would proceed at full speed, but prepared to stop at the next interlocking signal or you simply errect distant signals in advance of the next block entry signal and run it like the old MBS. Of course the best solution would be to install cab signals (if you can get the code to carry that distance) that would automatically upgrade when the block ahead became clear.
If you had to slow down to 30mph because you get hit with a 30mph right before the 16mins block, your line capacity will be two trains an hour.
As it stands the capacity is 4 tph, its hardly a big loss going to 2 tph.
If you can allow the engineer to run on yellow at high speeds until right before the next signal, your line capacity will be pretty close to being full.
The UK is trying to cover a wide range of operating conditions with a far to minimalist signaling system. They need a wider range of signal rules so that each type of condition has the set of rules that it just right for it in terms of both efficiency and safety.
And on NJ Transit, anyone qualifying up in the cab or engine must be in posession of a "head end pass" issued by a trainmaster, and also must be wearing safety eye glasses. AFAIK, those 2 requirements satisfy the authorities no matter what happens.
Here is why: The problem with the current rush-hour situation is that, even though all four Queens Blvd. trains (E,F,R,V) now go to Manhattan, the E and R are still the only 2 to go to Lower Manhattan, and the R is the only one going south of Chambers St. So there is now twice as much service to where not so many people go (6th Avenue), the same p-poor service to lower Manhattan, and half the express service to 53 St. and the Lexington Line if you are east of Roosevelt Avenue.
My change would double the Broadway service to Lower Manhattan (which is THE most popular Queens Blvd. service (even if the Q is a Bridge train, at least you could go across the platform to the tunnel train), and improve service to the Lexington Line (because of the connection at Union Sq).
The only bullet that needs to be bit on is closing the 57 St. station on 6th Avenue. But the Q's 57 Station is a mere avenue away. Just say it was a big mistake (I remember it being built 30 years ago: it was a lemon then) and let's get on with Bway-63 St. service.
Any thoughts??
The Manny B is opening next year, and full Sixth Av service is returning. An additional Broadway tranfer will probably open within a few years, as the SAS will operate Q trains via Lex/63rd (transfer from the F) to 86th Street/Second Av even as the tunnel north of that is still being built.
There is no need for your solution; the problem you're trying to solve doesn't exist.
But he's not suggesting two expresses through 53rd.
Current:
53 EXP - E - Jamaica - WTC
53 LCL - V - Continental - 2nd Av
60 LCL - R - Continental - 95th St
63 EXP - F - 179th St - Av X
His plan:
53 EXP - E - Jamaica - WTC
53 LCL - F/V - Continental - Av X
60 LCL - R - Continental - 95th St
63 EXP - Q - 179th St - Brighton
In fact, to Queens riders, there is NO difference as to which trains go through which tunnels. He's merely tidied up two loose ends of lines that terminate in Manhattan.
and the Sixth Av trunk is very, very busy.
And, as the whole Manny B episode shows, serves an adequately similar market to the Broadway Line. The Broadway Line is less busy precisely because its Northern connectors aren't as good.
An additional Broadway tranfer will probably open within a few years, as the SAS will operate Q trains via Lex/63rd (transfer from the F) to 86th Street/Second Av
It needn't be the Q train. The N train could go there instead, were the Q to go to Jamaica, with Astoria getting extra W Broadway Locals to replace the N train. This would actually be a great simplification, as it would remove the switching North of 34th St.
However, it would merely turn this solution to the Southbound 6th Av Lcl that no-one boards into a Southbound Bway Lcl that no-one boards - no great improvement.
the problem you're trying to solve doesn't exist.
On the contrary, he has eliminated the need for several train-sets (in effect the overlapping distance of the Q and the V trains). The solution he's proposed has less running with low loadings towards the Manhattan terminals he's abolished. Seeing as this means $$$ and the subway doesn't have enough $$$, I think this is a real problem, regardless of the significance of it.
O.K. well, send it in to MTA, and see what answer you get back. Post it here.
switching south of 57St allows Local<->Express
And, as the whole Manny B episode shows, serves an adequately similar market to the Broadway Line. The Broadway Line is less busy precisely because its Northern connectors aren't as good.
The first statement is not true. There currently are huge hordes transferring from the Broadway Line to the 6th Ave line (heading northbound) every weekday morning. This proves many many people want a train to 6th Ave even though they take a Q or W in from Brooklyn.
It probably also proves they are lazy and don't want to walk the block extra from 7th Ave. But if you're walking over to 5th or Madison the extra block may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
If I were trying to get to Madison Avenue, depending on quite where I wanted to be, I'd transfer to the 6 at Canal St or stay on the W train to 59/5.
The only station at which the 6th Avenue Line has a clear advantage is 53/5, which requires waiting for the V train. It'd probably be at least as quick riding the 6 to 51/Lex.
Is that so much that nearby stations (57/7, 53/7, 53/5, 47-50/6, 60/5) would be overwhelmed?
Now, we must have both the F and the V operating, at least weekdays. The B/D only go down as far as 34th so 6th Ave needs two lines. Only if you take your F or V, which ever you name it, and double its frequency (impossible b/c of conflict with the E), then two 6th Ave lines are necessary. People do go to 6th Ave. It's always packed tight when I go there, and needs all the trains it gets.
The R runs at 70% capacity, The F is at 95% and the E is at 98%. Which is the more popular service again?
The Sixth Ave trunk IS heavily used, as is 57th St/6th Ave.
Broadway is not the most popular Queens Blvd. Service: R trains only run at 76% capacity. On the other hand, E and F expresses are packed, I've never seen these "empty" F's that you talk about. I admit that if you made the Q an express, it would probably become just as crowded as the F is now, but then the R would become a much worse off version of the V train.
Then, you say that your plan allows the riders extra service to Lower manhattan. I'd like to point out:
1. Midtown is a much more popular destination than Lower manhattan, And 6th avenue is the B div line that is closest to the highest concentration of offices.
2. Making the Q express on QB doesn't give these riders access to lower manhattan. Granted, they will have a cross platform transfer to the R, but they have this now at Queens Plaza.
Finally, the closure of a station like 57/6th is very unwarranted. Stations used by people should not be closed.
Your plan seems like it would save some $ but it would cause a drop-off in "R" train ridership (causing it to be worse than the present day V train), eliminate a well used stop, deprive passengers of a well used express service, and add more ridership to lexington av trains (The 6th av trunk line is the closest line to lexington av. 5th, Madison and Park constitute the 4 blocks between these lines, and that area from 6th to 3rd, 59th to 42nd, is probably one of the densest business districts in the world). You could do it, but why? It's not really an improvement.
What was the MTA thinking then when it tore down the 3rd Av El?
But not for many years, surely. Even if construction on the Second Avenue Subway had been ready to start soon after the El was closed in 1955, which it wasn't, there would have been a gap of many years with no other transit service on the East Side except Lexington Avenue.
Now what's wrong with THIS one?
(M) 86 St - Metropolitan Av, 2 Av/63 St/6 Av Local
Mostly that.
(F) 179 St - Coney Island, 53 St Local
(Q) 179 St - Coney Island, 63 St Express
And a little of that.
2nd av trains need to go to Broadway, Queens Trains need to go to 6th av. If you want efficient service anyway.
...not to mention the excessive service east of 6th av.
So short-turn some trains at Second Avenue. Maybe you could call them Vs.
Additionally, have you looked at the 63rd st track map? Q trains and M trains would have to cross their paths.
With 11 TPH of M train service and 8 TPH of Q train service, that would work out to a train crossing these switches every 3 minutes 9 seconds. If Times Square can handle a train crossing every minute, I think they can handle that. It's not like the switches even have to be moved, the signals just have to be cleared.
2nd av trains need to go to Broadway, Queens Trains need to go to 6th av. If you want efficient service anyway.
The same could be said for Rogers Junction, which has a much higher frequency of service in conflict.
But the point is that the M line needs nowhere near that amount of service. It would make more sense to increase the "Q" by 2 tph, where it might actually be used than to increase a line by 5 tph, and run too many extra trains.
It's also more inefficient to run shorter trains at more frequent headways.
So short-turn some trains at Second Avenue. Maybe you could call them Vs.
Why do this when you don't have to?
With 11 TPH of M train service and 8 TPH of Q train service, that would work out to a train crossing these switches every 3 minutes 9 seconds.
So, the Q would be the Queens Blvd express running at 8 tph? No, it would need 12 tph. Why would you make a crossing when you don't need to anyway? That makes no sense.
The same could be said for Rogers Junction, which has a much higher frequency of service in conflict.
The difference is that the crossings at Rogers are done so that both branches can have service to both west side and east side Trunk lines. The crossing at 63rd doesn't make any sense. They have a cross platform transfer anyway at Lexington, and riders from queens already have the R train. You're creating a congestion point with no possible benefits.
Form the view of the costs for the TA - yes
But not for the passengers - They would like the decrease of waiting time
Maybe during off-hours, you're right. But during the rush, it's much better for full length trains to be the norm. People do not arrive at stations at even time intervals, like trains are supposed to. So, if there happen to be 300 people on a platform from a transfer, the longer train is a much better bet.
60min/11=5min 27 sec
60min/8= 7min 30sec
M exapmle dep times: 0:00 5:27 10:54 16:21 21:49 27:16 32:43 38:10 43:38 49:05 54:32
Q exapmle dep times: 0:00 7:30 15:00 22:30 30:00 37:50 45:00 52:50
depart at same time is impossible, so i add to the Q times 3:45
New Q dep times: 3:45 11:15 18:45 26:15 33:45 41:15 48:45 56:15
Look at difference between the M and Q dep times - shortest is 20 sec.
If you change the displacement time i've used, you only get a lower
difference than mine.
We had quite a few discussions on this a while back. Abandoning 57/6 Av forget about that, not possible would only make things worse. Both the F and V have to go somewhere after leaving Manhattan so where would the V go? And you can't squeeze the E,F and Q on the QB express w/o reducing the E/F, which would not go well at all!
The NY Post has said the TA wants to extend the V to Brooklyn. Numerous Subtalkers have said the TA ought to extend it to Brooklyn and some have said it will extend it to Brooklyn.
But the TA has never actually said it wants to extend the V to Brooklyn.
After I took this picture, I crossed over and took the Express.
Elias
Why don't you do it yourself???
Do you think, we know the exact times of crowding if we look only at
a schedule? If you're familiar with this line you'll know it better.
If we're making fantasy schedules for a fantasy subway (or bus) system,
we can only use the current TPH (or BPH) as information, which service
is needed.
Why don't you try suggesting an improvement?
By the way, please capitalize your "I" when referring to yourself.
Ridership surveys tell them who is going where.
Traffic checkers count passengers and tell them how crowded each line is.
Politicians scream when a neighborhood gets really upset.
But sometimes changes just have to be made because a situation is intolerable (such as F crowding before 2001), and they make them even though they know they'll get bad press.
LIRR M-1/3 consist at Island Park
Looking south of the Island Park station toward the bridge
LIRR Lynbrook looking east (Long Beach line branches off to right)
Check out my transit album at for more photos and full size ones
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289532651
The power plant (Barrett) used to get deliveries a couple times a week from looooong coal trains. I think it has been converted from coal to something else now.
CG
1) Can you try to type properly? "Now I see what I get. I get ignored."
2) You are not being ignored. Have you posted recently on topics you're interested in?
How about posting something that interests you about trains - their color, sound, or the people on them. What was the most interesting train trip (subway or Amtrak or whatever railroad) you took? What did you see?
or:
Can you describe what you would like to see on a subway ride?
just wondering.
tim
When was the last time you rode on a New York City Transit Subway train?
He answered that IN THIS VERY THREAD!!!
Wait, don't I usually say that to cdta?
Sit down and imagine what a fun subway ride would be like? Who would go with you? What would you see and do? Where would you go?
Don't hurry and type without thinking about your answer. Maybe sit down and think about this, write some notes to yourself on paper, or draw a picture of where you would be going. Then take your time and write your story here on Subtalk.
I'm sure many of us would like to read it.
Show us what you can do, Danny.
Bad post. VERY BAD post.
Such a simple question like that can be answered by going to the MTA's website and looking at the Manhattan bus map.
But then they might think you are a terrorist.
I am still very distraught over him :(
Anyway, I guess people will continue to look for their L train to come around that curve, until the day when the entire thing is gone and it is no longer visible from the platform.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
haven't been out that way since a railfan trip last summer.
thanks,
tim
There was plenty of other junk too. Most of the debris has been removed though from the center platform.
Do you think any of it belongs in the NYC, or any other, transit museum ? Or perhaps recycled to rebuild the Stillwell Avenue complex ?
Of course, if one follows this line of thought to its absurd extreme, one arrives at the many ideas for a horror flick at the Chambers Street station that have been posted recently on SubTalk : a congregation of demented railfans worshiping a perfectly preserved BMT Standard or Triplex or R9 car in a sealed, long-forgotten room at Chambers Street :
"O most holy BMT Standard, I reveal my true self to you !"
as in "Beneath The Planet of the Apes".
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The same with Atlantic. It was a great idea that they did what they did, even if I do feel a bit sad about it. The same with the future Canal and Bowery abandonments - a great idea, but of course I am a bit sentimental about the platform at Canal that I waited at so many times become just another "91st St". It will however be a good improvement, just like Atlantic was.
But while I am far from fanatical, I do like a few relics here and there. There is a brick from the old Fremont Tower in my possession (even if it seems like just another brick in my backyard - I know which one it is). I wouldn't go so far as to put it on an "alter" though. Heh, it's all in fun.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/fortgreene/ftgreene.html
the worst part is i will be working like 10 blocks from the museum and can't go. what a tease!
thanks,
tim
Go to the Museum's web page. http://www.mta.info/mta/museum/general.htm
But to make it easier:
Monday - CLOSED
Tuesday - Friday 10 AM to 4 PM
Saturday and Sunday 12 Noon to 5 PM
Major holidays - Closed
Admission:
Adults $5.00
Children 3-17 years and Senior Citizens $3.00
Museum members - Free
can't wait to see what they've done with that place.
tim
Which brings me to my rant of the evening. Why do museums (and libraries and small stores) tend to be open only during the business day? Wouldn't they be able to attract more visitors and customers with later hours -- e.g., in the case of the Transit Museum, 1 to 7 instead of 10 to 4 -- at least one or two days of the week?
It works for art museums (IIRC Metropolitan has evening hours and lectures too!)
Or retain business hours one day of the week.
Or (for a fee) open early to accomodate the schools. This would be good for other museum visitors, too.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Hoboken Museum, OTOH, is open only evenings and weekends.
til next time
til next time
wayne
til next time
wayne
What I wanna know is WHO KEEPS CHANGING THAT SIGN. Does the teacher change it, or do they let you guys play with it?
til next time
--Mark
Wow! That's, like, to die for!
Peace,
ANDEE
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
wayne
On the IRT, I distinctly remember consists that included any of the following mixed on one train: R17s, R22s, R26s, R29s; mixed with R12s, R14s, R15s.
wayne
Belugas are not dolphins—they belong to the family of Monodontidae which is a small family that has no dorsal fin and includes the Narwhal (or Narwhale aka Sea Unicorn). Belugas are also unique among whales in that their necks are flexible and they can turn their heads from side to side. Dolphins and Shamu (the Orca or Killer Whale) belong to the family Delphinidae. All are “toothed whales,” meaning that they have teeth (of course) and eat large prey, in contrast to “baleen whales” which have baleen plates that are used to filter plankton out of the water.
Incidentally, the nickname “Shamu” has been applied to the Amtrak Phase V colors that most of their locomotives now bear…
I wish I could supply better news but this link was supplied on this board by Bob Diamond himself.
What is the proportion of Westinghouse vs. General Electric equipment in preserved PCC's in musuems?
Dan:
I scanned through my list and I have a partial answer, although its usefulness may be limited by the fact that I don't have motor data for all of the PCC cars on the list. I based this solely off of motors, since relatively few cars have different motors from controls.
Out of 484 preserved PCC cars (including rapid transit cars with PCC equipment):
165 are GE equipped
245 are WH equipped
72 are (unknown) in that I don't know what equipment they had
2 are missing their equipment; one was originally GE, the other WH
So, the proportion is about 40% GE and 60% WH with a margin of error of somewhere around +/- 10%. I think. Does anyone care to check my math? :-)
Frank Hicks
I didn't see any activity until I got to the Burlington PRR station, where diesel light rail car #3514 was standing. After taking a few photos in the heavy overcast, I asked a crewmwmber what they were doing. She said they were waiting for a relief crew, and that they had been shuttling between South Burlington and Bordentown. Bordentown would make for some great photos, but I was on my way home and Bordentown was in the wrong direction. I settled for a street shot in Burlington once the new crew got to work.
Later I saw car 3502 running south in Edgewater Park.
These photos and four more are on a Webshots page.
I thought Wisconsin Central was still around. What is it now?
CN
That one got me too, so CN got WC? Damn, I was just starting to like them too...
Course I think this would give CN their first taste of the EMD 20-645E3 engines that the SD45 has. As far as I can tell, CN has never owned an SD45, nor have they aquired one through their many purchases. And with all the gobbling WC did of all the 20 cylinder monsters, CN is bound to get at least a few with their original prime movers in them.
No. This is Burlington, NJ.
Burlington County
Burlington City
Burlington Township
It BETTER open, after a billion dollars and counting!
Send an IM to ticocg47 for an invite, if I'm not there, Fishbowl8v71 will be glad to get you in as well.
Get aim at www.aim.com
If so, that yard/shop is much older than the CI yards and is now only a shadow of it's former glory. The first BMT standards arrived there in 1914.
39th Street is the SBK yard down near the shore. 38th and 36th are the former elevated yards and once chief southern division yard for the BRT.
I forget which of 38th and 36th did what, but I think 38th was mainly storage and 36th was yard and shop. Much of 36th yard was lost when it became Fifth Avenue Bus Depot.
The common name for the current rapid transit portion of the facility is '38th Street Yard'. The yard includes the following: South Brooklyn Railway Ops; Garbage train unloading facilities (separate platform just east of 9th Ave. station); and Headquarters for RTO Construction Contractors (IIRC).
Joyriding :)
Peace,
ANDEE
They're made for each other!
LOL.
-Stef
P.S. I hope to come down to the NYTM soon, gotta see it....
I challenge you to an old fashioned duel of the 19th century...Choose your brake handle!!!
-Stef
P.S. SBK still rules.
Peace,
Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
W was concieved because the old plan had peak direction N trains (assuming peak from queens) running local regardless of whether they went to brooklyn or not. Also confusing for passengers who didn't know if they're train was going to Bklyn in the AM.
I'm talking about the 1986 plan, which was when the W was concieved. In the AM rush, All southbound N trains ran local. (Northbound N and Uni-directional QB trains ran exp). How could one differentiate between an N going to terminate at Whitehall (and make stops in lower manhattan) and one that was now headed into Bklyn? In the PM, it was less of an issue since the extra locals were coming from Whitehall, and one wouldn't be confused at all. Still it did make sense to just slap a new designation on the train anyway (and possibly allow southbound N express service in the AM, northbound in the PM).
Was there an overlap between the QT and the EE? If there was, then there was a time with 3 locals. Even so, well after Chrystie, there were two Bway Lcls - the EE and the RR.
K X Y and U in JFK color or pink
T can stay in the Broadway line in yellow bullet and black font group along with N R Q W.
There are proposals to connect them directly into MetroNorth's Hudson Line via a new Tappan Zee Bridge. However, if NJT is really going to get a second tunnel to Penn Station, as in the Access to the Region's Core plan, it would probably be cheaper for New York just to insist on a minimum number of slots direct to Penn in exchange for accepting the tunnel's landfall in New York.
He didn't say Farley Building.
The 2nd Hudson tube proposal includes more track space at Penn for NJT trains. The Penn Station part of the work is probably far more expensive than the 2nd tube itself.
Moreover, after East Side Access the LIRR will be using fewer slots at Penn.
thanks,
tim
(B)145 St (Bedford Park Blvd rush) to Brighton Beach via 6 Av/Brighton express/CPW Local weekdays only
(D)205 St-Stillwell Av via CPW/6 Av express/4 Av/West End
(N)86 St (Stillwell Av in 2005) to Astoria via Broadway/4 Av express. On weekends runs local via Broadway
(Q)Stillwell Av-57 St/7 Av via Broadway express/Broghton local
(W)Whitehall St-Astoria via Broadway local
The Q diamond is repaced by the B on the south and the Q north of Dekalb.
bay ridge has its draw backs.
tim
Do you mean a weekday train or a train without sufficient acceleration?
In either case, the answer is no. It will run its full route weekends except nights, and it has just as good acceleration as any other train.
tim
Not if there is wicked curve just outside of the station.
B - no service?
N - tunnel
Q - tunnel?
maybe i am way off?
i don't remember what the routing was like when both sides were open.
tim
tim
Current Plan:
(D) 6 Ave Exp, West End / All Times / via Bridge
(B) 6 Ave Exp, Brighton Beach Express / Day Times / via Bridge
(Q) Broadway Express (57th St), Brighton Local / All Times / via Bridge
(N) Broadway Express (Astoria), Sea Beach / Day Times / via Bridge
(R) Broadway Local (Continential), Bay Ridge / All Times / Via the Rat Hole
(W) Broadway Local (Astoria), Whitehall Street / Day Times
(M) Nassau Lion, West End (9th Ave / Kings Hwy) / Day Times / via the Rat Hole.
Elias
(D) 6 Ave Exp, West End / All Times / via Bridge
(B) 6 Ave Exp, Brighton Beach Express / Day Times / via Bridge
(Q) Broadway Express (57th St), Brighton Local / All Times / via Bridge
(N) Broadway Express (Astoria), Sea Beach / Day Times / via Bridge
(R) Broadway Local (Continential), Bay Ridge / All Times / Via the Rat Hole
(W) Broadway Local (Astoria), Whitehall Street / Day Times
(M) Nassau Lion, West End (9th Ave / Kings Hwy) / Day Times / via the Rat Hole.
Do you see the symetry in this?
6th Ave Express trains all come from 8th Avenue, and leave via the Bridge
6th Ave Local trains all come from Queens and leave via Rutgers.
Broadway Express trains all leave via Bridge
Broadway Local trains all leave via the Rat Hole.
All Broadway Express trains Ought to run via the 63rd Street Tunnel, while all Broadway Local trains Ought to run via the 60th Street Tunnel, but that part of the project is not quite ready to support this option...
but you can see that these protocol will reduce or eliminate switching and line merges in Manhattan....
this in turn will speed up service through Manhattan.
You cannot change one end of a line without having an impact on the whole trunk line, and the lines at the opposite ends, and on other lines that will also be affected by the change.
Kudos to the MTA for making such a satisfactory plan!
Now for my changes, and recommendations: : )
1) (V) 6th Ave Local to Chambers Street ~ World Trade Center
2) (C) 8th Ave Local to Kings Highway (Culver Express) via Rutgers
3) (E) 8th Ave Express to Euclid Avenue via Fulton Street Local
Advantages:
1) Through 6th Avenue trains to downtown.
2) Elimination of Local/Express merge at the Cranberry Tunnel
3) Somewhat improved service on the Culver with a choice of 6th or 8th Avenue as a final destination.
Comments:
The (C) and the (V) are daytime services, the (E) becomes the 8th Ave Local at Night with its terminal at Chambers-WTC.
The 6th to 8th ave Local swap proposed is accommodated by an existing flying crossover south of W4 St.
Elias
tim
::i hate using caps::
I think they should be made illegal.
the seat is comfortable
Maybe in comparison to sitting on a railhead.
and you have plenty of elbow room to relax if you sit with the window to your back.
Any car, when empty, gives plenty of elbow room. When crowded it gives none. Except R46 seats right next to a cab. Those seats have 'armrests'.
its so scary to walk in between sets.
In my opinion, this is the best part.
it will be a shame to see them go
Personally, I can't wait.
when are the 160's due?
According to some, there's a set at 207th as we speak.(And there's a bridge that needs selling)
how different will they be from 143's?
According to some others, they will be exactly the same, except with stainless steel fronts. (Don't bet on it)
Adam
i'm not the only nut here.
AND if they are to be found on weekends, you will see them on the short-line "N" and a few sprinkled in on the "W". Their regular haunt is on the diamond (slant) "Q" and "N" lines.
wayne
wayne
Who appointed you "Lord Nickname Giver?"
David
If that's the case, then could you find another boxer? Cause, despite being a fictional movie character, Philly's got the market cornered on Rocky Balboa, there are some (even sports anchors at local TV stations) who would term him among the best athletes Philadelphia has turned out in the previous century (keep in mind he is a fictional character).
Anybody else got any issues with the other nicknames?
Pictures indicate that the Slants have a fantastic railfan window. I could ride back and forth from Broad to Jamaica Center, getting familiar with the Slants, and seeing all of the changes that have taken place on my favorite line in the last forty years.
Some dream, Huh! I might as well go all the way, and ask him to install R-44 door chimes on those eight R-40's too.
A railfan's dream, door chimes on a slant!
Thanks for writing that. It makes me feel good that you say that. Another reason to love the slants!
Sssshhhh... next Fred will start up a movie company...
Oh man, you've been so deprived. You need to come over here before approximately 2010 when they might be all gone. Riding the slants is like nothing else.
Speaking of CPW, has the TA changed the timers recently? It seems like one of the N. bound timers is missing (past few days, the train only slowed beginning at 110th.)
The Rinos are just as big, but move a little faster.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Mamaroneck man released from hospital after Railroad stabbing.
No futher 411, just the tagline...
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/091303/b03w13mamstab.html
Read the article again. It's the VICTIM who has the long record.
I'll pass up on this one if I had a choice. Maybe you could watch The Weather Channel instead?
http://users.snip.net/~trolleydriver/girard.htm
http://users.snip.net/~trolleydriver/girard.htm
Anyone else just a bit excited to ride these cars?
When the motorman saw me taking pictures, he called me up front, where I expected some kind of rant that we encounter at times in New York. Instead, he talked trolleys through the entire trip and gave me his business card with his website (linked in Wdobner's post). He then let me off where I could find another SEPTA holiday PCC.
Chuck Greene
2) Did I see turn signals lights on the front dash ?
3) I see a curtain roll sign was retained as opposed to the now popular LED or flip dot signs.
4) Wheelchair lift seems to be by the rear exit.
5) I see how they melded the old PTC emblem with a SEPTA "S", did you catch that ?
6) Those new seats look much like the types used on the rehabbed Toronto PCC's.
If these cars are success and big hit with the riding public, would any mothballed non museum PCC's receive the same treatment ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It's great to see someone has a sense of history, with the "Hello Philadelphia" roll sign that harkens back to the original PCCs of 1938 and the hybrid SEPTA/PTC logo.
Too bad the buses took over on Wayne Ave. and we'll never see one of these on the scenic upper end of Route 53 :-(
SEPTA is retaining eight other un-rebuilt PCC's, just in case the Girard line is a success and they need more cars. If necessary, they'll get those other eight cars rebuilt.
Frank Hicks
Robert
The trucks aren't even TRC trucks, but a truck design similar to the trucks under the K cars.
With the new control system, one traditional part of PCC technology has vanished. PCC's have always had a way to lock the brake pedal and take your foot off the deadman pedal (while siitng a light, for example). That doesn't exist in the solid state equipment used on CLRV's, MBTA Type 7's and the K cars. Your left foot tends to go numb, unless you want to put the car in emergency at every traffic light.
Yes, you can latch the brakes on the CLRVs (and the ALRVs too). Who told you otherwise?
-Robert King
I thought TTC was a WH chopper package user, as folks from TTC went to Philly in 1980-81 to teach Septa how to use and maintain them, since the K's were the first solid state equipment they had.
The "interlock" on the PCC was a mechanical link, which worked because of the "brake over power" feature of PCC control.
What control package is on the CLRV's and ALRV's, or it this a local mod of the control package?
In either case, when the streetcars were designed by UTDC working closely with the TTC, they started out with the A7 PCC cars and developed their new designs from there and one of the things that was retained was the brake pedal latching function in the driving controls.
I never heard of SEPTA bringing in the TTC to show them how to deal with the solid state equipment. By that time, the TTC would have had plenty of experience with it on the H5 subway cars from 1976 and the CLRVs and the basic thyristor control technology is the same regardless of manufacturer. Wouldn't it have been easier for them to borrow someone with Boeing experience from the MBTA? Those have thyristor chopper control, too.
-Robert King
Oh wait ... as Emily Litella used to say, "NEVERMIND ... R-143" ...
Fortunately for all the streetcar drivers here, the TTC and UTDC made sure that the brake latch was kept. It lets you take your feet of the pedals by latching the brake pedal down in a full service brake application and some drivers like to latch the brakes after the streetcar's slowed down but a bit before it comes to a stop. The problem is, is that the full service brake application on the CLRVs and ALRVs brings the streetcar to a complete stop without easing off the way a driver does then they do it manually so there's a good bump when it stops moving. This seems to be the most frequent cause of rough stops other than streetcar drivers having to hit the brakes hard so that they don't smash motorists when they do dumb things like U turns etc. right in front of a 65,000 pound CLRV.
-Robert King
But even the arnines would let you drop the reverser and let go. Today, you need a full serv and we all know dumping all that air slows a takeoff to a degree (ALSO not so with arnines) ... like I said, I *loved* those old warhogs ... if you KNEW how to run 'em, they were SWEET and SO forgiving! DUMP the train, you rolled again before it fully stopped - 3 seconds at worst! And they coasted as long as the grade was zero to negatives ... you could actually EAT a submarine on an express run and not have to put the damned thing down to get back your speed ... I *loved* arnines for all that. SO easy to run (IF you knew HOW) ...
And that I was into my OWN kink is why the union burned my butt ... first of all, I was "flexible" and then I was in the "Rank and File Faction" out to depose the TWU leadership. Hell, 1970 was "revolutionary times" ... heh ... whoda THUNK that the union was full of status-quo right wingers? In *THOSE* times! Heh.
But yeah, if I was sent out to the QJ, I coulda done it. Hell, I was ALREADY bored out of my teat on the D train ... folks who RIDE get to get off when they WANT to ... I was stuck on that witch for 2 round trips per day plus WAA and switch jobs out the wazoo ... I woulda GLADLY bolted given the cards I was dealt. Straight 8, THANK YOU!!! :)
The Type 7's and the K cars don't have that latching brake pedal.
I've run both, on the street/in the subway and the lack of the latch function is a pain in the foot.
The story about TTC in Philly came from a SEPTA source, so you can take that for what it's worth.
As to the Boeings, the Type 7's went "back to the drawing board". MBTA actually asked the operators what they preferred, pedals or joysticks.
The operators preferred pedals 6 to 1, so pedals it was, but without the latch pedal feature, either your left foot goes numb, or you put the car in emergency at a traffic light and go through the reset every time.
Just to show you that sometimes good ideas get dumped, guess what the trouble-prone Type 8's have? Joysticks again. Nobody thought to poll the operators.
It's possible that the TTC was brought into Philadelphia by Septa to acquaint them with the technology on the K cars when they were new. The TTC would have had the expertise at the time, having broken in the H6 cars in 1976 and the CLRVs in the late 70s. I'll have to ask around about that up here. The other TTC story I've heard from several people both inside and outside of Septa is that Septa wanted to borrow a CLRV the way the MBTA had the set of three to try out, except the TTC turned down the request because they were afraid of their streetcar being hit by vandals in Philadelphia. I've also heard that the long tapered noses on the TTC CLRVs and ALRVs stick out far enough so they wouldn't clear some of the tight turns underground. Personally, I think the track guage difference would be a problem, too. The MBTA didn't have this problem because they're standard guage.
As far as the MBTA type 8s are concerned, what they have for driving controls has been more of an academic issue for the last four (or is it five now?) years given that they've spent nearly no time actually running. I was surprised that they didn't use the successful type 7 as a platform to start designing the new cars from like the TTC and UTDC did with the A7 PCCs when they developed the CLRV which they then evolved into the ALRV.
If you want to hear good firsthand story from me about Septa and one of your friends, email me sometime.
-Robert King
I suspect that the Rt. 15 PCCs will be favorites quickly and SEPTA
will exercise those 8 options.
Also, buying Perley Thomas 2000 series from New Orleans would be an
excellent idea for future lines. Same trucks (same gauge), same
controls and almost identical dimensions. Mahogany seats available
and real tourist pleasers :-) The all new bodies are built of Corten
and stainless steel, aluminum forgings, marine aluminum sheet and
wood. Riveted together and should last for well over 100 years.
Every part that broke, rusted out, or just wore out in 80 years of
service has been ruggedized.
(Copied from another Transit website)
“Modern computer controls will allow seamless/jerkless acceleration and deceleration”
LMAO…sorry, gotta laugh at that one. What with penalty brake applications on other LRT systems, not to mention street-running on Route 15, I don’t see seamless nor jerkless (the latter also being dependent on the quality of passengers riding)…
The annual Harmon Shop Open House will take place on Saturday, October 18, 2003 from 10 AM - 3 PM.
take train to Croton Harmon station on Hudson Line
oh and btw, normal saturday schedule is
croton harmon locals leave usually at 20 after. so if u want a Railfan window unless train has deadheads for head pair. schedule should be as following
7:20 croton harmon morris heights first
7:53 Poughkeepsie MARBLE HILL FIRST STOP
8:20 CROTON HARMON MORRIS HEIGHTS FIRST STOP
8:53 POUGHKEEPSIE MARBLE HILL FIRST STOP
u guys get the point.
--Mark
Mark: I seem to be O for 2 that weekend. I'll be down in Disneyland seeing how a real Mickey Mouse Railroad operates. I really would have liked to have gone to Branford for the Railfan Weekend. I hope that you guys have a good time. I'll say "hello" to Goofy for you.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Branford needs all the competition it can get!! (lol)
Passenger service returns to East Stroudsburg PA courtisey of Steamtown, with this Excursion trip to Deleware Water Gap. The 12 car train was fully sold out at $100.00 a seat.
ALL ABOARD!
Elias
Nice shots of former CP 2317 heavy Pacific. Pity that the line is not up to the kind of scratch that would permit MAS lots faster than 35 mph—that is a fast engine right there, with its 75-inch drivers and all.
Would be nice to eventually see this loco crossing the Delaware on the old DL&W viaduct, but then again this is a NPS operaion and FRA upgrades of the cab would be necessary, like what was done with C&O 614…
The line from Scranton to at least Moscow allows speeds higher than 35mph, right? And what about the B&M 3713? I'm excited about that locomotive running in a few years. Which loco do you think was/is faster, the 2317 or the 3713? I'm a member of the NRHS chapter that is restoring the 3713.
The line from Scranton to at least Moscow allows speeds higher than 35mph, right?
Nope. Track conditions combined with severe upgrade plus lots of curves contribute to that, not to mention that the NPS would be keeping the 2317 in “historic” condition, meaning no ditch lights or modern signaling systems, etc.
And what about the B&M 3713?
Not finished yet, correct? Coming along nicely, last I heard, however.
Which loco do you think was/is faster, the 2317 or the 3713?
Well, compare the specs of the 2317 versus the 3713 and that ought to give you a few clues, e.g. driver diameter, boiler pressure, superheater types, efficiency of feedwater heaters, ad infinitum. What with the 2317 being a “heavy” Pacific itself, it would have quite a bit of pulling ability as well as straightline horsepower.
What about for the DL freight trains? They are limited to 35mph too? This is the suckage. Where can you take a steam locomotive and open the throttle wide open? Are there any main line tracks in American where this is possible? I mean THIS IS AMERICA, HOME OF THE FREE, and we can't run our beautiful steam engines over 35mph?????
Actually, I was on the Steamtown / MLW 261 trip up to Syracuse quite a few years back, and let me tell you, on the return leg of the trip, on CP between Binghamton and Scranton (the line that goes right past my house, former Lackawanna mainline), the 261 was hauling some serious @$$!!!!! I was having a blast. We were book'n down the mountain!
I have a dream, that one day, myself, and all of my railfan brothers and sisters, will be able to ride behind the B&M 3713, in a consist of open window coaches, that is doing at least 79MPH down a mainline track.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Where can you take a steam locomotive and open the throttle wide open?
Wherever you can invest lots of money into it. Excursion steamers like 261 and UP’s 3985 and 844 most likely would have modern upgrades to permit main line operation anyhow. Then there are those insurance premiums, which have gone up quite a bit lately…
And as for opening the throttle wide open, you don’t really want to waste steam, especially when cruising at track speed, do you…? There are very few main lines that have top speeds above 79 mph anyhow.
on the return leg of the trip, on CP between Binghamton and Scranton
That is in superior condition to the D-L segment between Scranton and Analomink. Hopefully, if this Lackawanna Cutoff project gets rolling (yup, if), the tracks can see some upgrades. (CP? I have seen quite a bit of CN power on there in recent months…)
Yes. They had steam engines.
I thought your house was in New York City and you do trafik counts there.
I live in NYC now, but I grew up and my parents still live near Scranton. And yes, once in a while I do traffic counts.
David
til next time
Yes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 7—Liquidation
Chapter 7 is the Bankruptcy Code's liquidation chapter, which is sometimes referred to as a "straight bankruptcy." It is used primarily by individuals who wish to free themselves of debt simply and inexpensively, but also may be used by businesses that wish to liquidate and terminate their business.
There are several alternatives to Chapter 7 relief. Debtors who are engaged in business, including corporations, partnerships and sole proprietorships, may wish to remain in business and avoid liquidation. Such debtors may consider a petition under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. Individual debtors who have a regular income and sole proprietorships also may be eligible for relief under Chapter 13 where an adjustment of debts is sought. In fact, a number of courts have dismissed a Chapter 7 case for substantial abuse when the debtor has the ability to propose and fund a Chapter 13 reorganization plan. Finally, debtors should be aware that out-of-court agreements with creditors or debt counseling services may provide an alternative to a bankruptcy filing.
Chapter 7 envisions the bankruptcy trustees gathering the debtor's non-exempt assets. The individual debtor is permitted to retain certain exempt property, while the debtor's remaining assets are liquidated by a trustee and the proceeds from the sale are distributed according to priorities set by the Bankruptcy Code.
To qualify for relief under Chapter 7, the debtor must be an individual, partnership or corporation. Relief is available under Chapter 7 regardless of the amount of the debtor's debts, or whether the debtor is solvent or insolvent.
One of the primary purposes of bankruptcy is discharging debts to give an honest individual debtor a "fresh financial start." The discharge has the effect of extinguishing the debtor's personal liability on dischargeable debts. In Chapter 7, a discharge is available to individual debtors only. It should be noted that although the filing of an individual chapter 7 petition usually results in a discharge, an individual's right to a discharge is not absolute. In addition, a bankruptcy discharge does not extinguish a lien on property.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 11—Reorganization
Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code is frequently referred to as "reorganization." Although an individual may file under Chapter 11, generally it is used to reorganize a business. Individuals with large federal or state tax obligations may use Chapter 11 because an extended period of time may be obtained for the repayment of the taxes. Chapter 11 generally allows the debtor to continue its business operations as it proceeds to the desired goal of a confirmed Plan of Reorganization, which must meet certain statutory criteria. A major rationale for business reorganizations is that the value of a business as an ongoing concern is greater than it would be if its assets were liquidated and sold. Generally, it is more economically efficient in the long run to reorganize than to liquidate, because doing so preserves jobs and assets. Cooperation among the various interests, however, is crucial to a successful reorganization.
It would be easy to dress up the R-62. The fiberglass bonnet could easy have color added to it. (Red and black, anyone?) Perhaps the now-dented and scratched interior wall panels could be replaced with a material similar to what is used on the R-142.
Although the R-142 (and the R-143) have more color, their aesthetics seem to be lacking in other areas.
The blandest feature pertaining to both cars is the lack of any sort of corrugations on the sides. In that respect, the R-110a was a more attractive car than the R-142. The R-110a also had a better-looking front end, with more upright headlight bezels and symetrical front windows.
If The R-143, with its curved sides, had corrugations on the lower half on the car, it would resemble an R-40 or R-42. I'm also baffled as to why the designers of the R-143 eliminated the second window on the front end of the car. The extra window would have made the car look less "hefty". (Some posters have already dubbed the R-143, with its silver and black ends, "Shamu".)
til next time
Also, if anyone else has recorded station announcements (preferably from NYC, Philadelphia or even London) I would love to get a copy of those to expand my own collection or trade for some of my recorded announcements. Just drop me an e-mail (but don't send files w/o permission - Yahoo doesn't like big attachements).
By the way: For the person who asked about recording sounds on the subway: I use a normal tape player with recording funtion I got from Wal-Mart for $19.99. Most portable MP3 players have a recording function too (great for recoding sounds w/o being seen - just sit near a speaker, hold the MP3 player in your hand and pretend you're listening to music).
Kai (the announcement guy)
Can you come up with other pop culture references to this car?
Secaucus Junction is not fully opened, therefore not “finished” per se.
now the Secaucus Loop must be built
Dream on, pardner. That mess will never happen, ever. Not without a brand-new station in Manhattan, or a doubling of the Penn Station tracks, because the intent of that loop was nothing less than to kill Hoboken Terminal. Plus, since the Access To the Region’s Core project’s Alternative G has been effectively blocked, the dream about that horrid loop has been put firmly back into dreamland.
Besides, what would the purpose of SJ station be if that loop went in? There would be no purpose to that station, since all trains would be going to Manhattan via that loop. “Must be built,” indeed…more like some of the waterfront terminals should be rebuilt, really (and CNJ terminal is sitting idle in the middle of Liberty State Park, too).
where would the trains stop if it went through the Secaucus Loop?
At both platforms of Secaucus Junction Station? That is the way it was to be set up. Makes zero sense, right?
Does anyone know for sure if 6400-6419 were ever retrofitted with poles?
til next time
The missing poles were the floor to ceiling poles that should have been in the center of the car between the door sets.
The spring loaded hand holds were also present. There must have been about forty of them in each car.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
ANYHOO Any car # for the R40 consist? Last time they used Slants in the Movies was GHOSST and also COWBOY WAY
wayne
Robert
David
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
#3 West End Jeff
In the case of the TM, Charter membership was given to the first 100 people who signed up for membership. We were among the first to get a mailing that the Museum was offering memberships.
Allan
Charter Member #6
But I do get the satisfaction that I was among the original group that helped to get the membership roster started.
I wonder who's numero uno?
At this point you can only be a regular member at whatever level you decide to contribute.
See the Museum website for more information on membership levels.
Wild guess, Don Harold
BTW Todd, at the Omni Berkshire Place, on the list of radio stations, they list 880 AM as KCBS. They also omit 1010 WINS from their listing.
880 AM is WCBS (not KCBS, which is 740 AM in San Francisco!). It's OK with me that they omitted WINS :-)
Back to transit now, I can assure you I did not join the museum in 1976 yet I am a charter member. How does one determine their number? Would it be on the card?
CHARTER #58
CONTRIBUTING 01/01/2004
(Whoops! I said 57 in an earlier thread... sorry to whoever has that #)
If you are a charter member then your membership car will have the word "Charter" on it. Your membership number will also be on the card.
pic 1
pic 2
Ironically, you need to learn when to keep your mouth shut...
Thank you for accompanying me on my expedition to the Bronx. I enjoyed the afternoon immensely.
That said:
For those of you who weren't aware, there is no 6 service between 125th and Parkchester. Shuttle buses ran between 138th/GC and Parkchester. Since Pelham Yard was cut off from the mainline, the "6" service between Woodlawn and Brooklyn Bridge was operated by R142As from the 6, R142s from the 4, R142As from the 4, and R62s from the 4. The R62 trains were signed correctly with Woodlawn/Brooklyn Bridge, though the "routes" were mixes of 6 and 4. The R142s and R142As on the 4 were signing themselves as Lexington Avenue locals. The R142As from the 6 on the other hand were clueless since they lack automated announcements. Most were signed up for Pelham Bay Park with manual announcements north of 125th and we saw one set signed for Parkchester! The GO runs all weekend so be sure to check it out.
Full trip report when I return home and get a chance to write it.
By the way, when I left at 125th St, I encountered an R62 #4 train (w/ #1341-1345) on the N/B 6 local track and an R142A #4 train (w/ #7676-7680 and 7691-7695) coming in on the N/B express...guess which one left first?
After that, I took the R142A #4 to 149th St and went downstairs to the #2 train (#6901-6905 and #6851-6855; yes, a #5 line set) to my home stop...
Thank you
Incognito
And do what with it, take awful photos?
One thing that caught my eye was that on R-30 car 8506, they had IRT roll signs and they were set for the Flushing line.
When I inquired about this with one of the Museum's senior staffers, he advised me that it got changed when the R-30 was moved down to the CI Facility. It is not known who did it.
My feeling is that someone purposefully removed them at CI for their own personal gain (perhaps ebay) or their own collection.
Anyway they don't have (or at least they don't think they have) any replacement roll signs for the car. If anyone knows where some can be found (or are willing to donate from your own collection) let the Education Department of the TM know (or you can let Andee know and he will pass along the info).
Dyckman St, Manhattan
34 St-Penn Station, Manhattan
Special
?
Only one that'd make sense on the B-division. Dyckman St is the only A-div North Terminal that could also be used as a B-div termainal, 34 St-Penn Station, also, and due to the fact that it's conveniently on the same line (Neither Utica Avenue nor New Lots Avenue could be b-div terminals), and Special because it's not a numbered line, and is way too long to be a Shuttle.
Atlantic/Pacific can be a south terminal on both divisions (and the other Atlantic could be a B Division south terminal until recently).
Obviously whoever stole the side signs stole the end sign as well.
I wonder if anyone at the Transit Museum can explain to us and the public how a IND/BMT subway car managed to operate on the Flushing line, the width being a tad too large for the IRT Flushing line? I guess SOME IRT railfan/TM member had a distinct love for some R30s...ROFL
Incognito
That's awful.
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Also, the book says that the brake package(?) was replaced on the R-44. It was a WABCO RT-5c changed to a Westcode package.
Interesting. I think that's as much as it cost to buy them in the first place (of course those were 1970 or 1972 dollars)...
I still can't understand why the R44's troubles weren't addressed in their GOH. Although I'm basing this only on the fact that the R46's braking sounds changed after GOH, I'm asuming they had new braking systems installed during their GOH.
As to who did the overhaul, Morrison-Knudsen did many of the cars, with the remainder being done as a partnership between 207th Street and Coney Island Overhaul Shops, using parts supplied by M-K so the in-house cars would match M-K's (component-wise, anyway). Contrary to one poster's opinion, this was a full GOH job, about equal in scope to that of the R-46. The cars are much more reliable now than they were prior to GOH, though they aren't as reliable as other car classes.
David
LOL!
It's just not possible.
There are 278 post-GOH, non-SI R-44 cars. At least six are permanently out of service; that's 272, the equivalent of 340 60' cars. Who'se fact's arent straigh't?
I am assuming that any retirement will junk an entire class of cars (contract number) in a way that would allow the TA to eliminate completely lots of parts from its inventory and ordering. Simlifying logistics, ad reducing the number and types of parts they have to deal with is of great importance.
What do you keep? What CAN you keep? Have you seen the TA keep a car type beyond it's 40th year in recent memory (outside the Westinghouse R10's)?
340 R-44s
391 R-40s&M
391 R-42
196 R-38
Total 1318 cars. Subtract that from 1,700 R-160s and 212 R-143s and you have 494 cars to replace some R-32s or expand service or both.
The only way the R44's get scrapped is if the TA figures that the R32's CAN make it to and beyond their 50th birthday and that costs for caring for cars so old won't be prohibitive.
Yes they are: the R-30s.
As soon as that pair in Coney Island is stripped & ready, I'd imagine :)
The R30 scrapping was a planned fleet decrease (only 120 or so still existed) in 1992. The R143 was a planned fleet expansion. Each decision made sense at the time.
Huh? The R-143 cars are bringing the system back to 1992 car equipment levels. They are not expanding the fleet. They are filling a void that was unknowingly created when the R-30 cars were prematurely retired. It doesn't matter that the MTA thought they were doing the right thing at the time by getting rid of the R-30 cars and not ordering replacements. They ended up being very wrong and we've been paying the price for it ever since.
In a simplistic sense, you are correct.
In either case, it turns out that they were retired prematurely. The R-143 order fills the void that was created when the R-30's were retired.
i was also told today that the R-30s were overhauled in 1986. They didn't receive the major overhaul that the R-32 through R-46 got. But they were needed to fill the gaps while the other BMT/IND cars went through overhaul. I was told that there were times when up to 100 cars were out of service on a given day, for overhaul.
I have always advocated that the R30's should have mothballed, not scrapped, but hindsight is 20/20.
David
David
No, the R-68(A) cars were bought between 1986 and 1989. The R-30 cars were not retired until 1992. So they DID NOT replace the R-30 cars.
Also, where is this service expansion that you speak of?
"Total 1318 cars. Subtract that from 1,700 R-160s and 212 R-143s and you have 494 cars "
It actually comes to 594 cars. 594 60' cars is exactly the size of the R-32 fleet. Do you think this is a coincidence?
Whether or not there is a "car shortage" in the B-Division has been discussed at length, repeatedly, on this board over the years. By definition, no, there is no car shortage, because the current levels of service are being met. But there are also insufficient spares to significantly increase service levels. The Manhattan Bridge will be completely open soon, for the first time since long before the R-30s were sent to scrap; if there were no R-143s, there would most likely be a car shortage.
If the R-143 order is supposed to replace current rolling stock, why has nothing been scrapped yet?
Yes. The R32 is the oldest car in the fleet (or will be when the R36WF is completely retired). They'll be 44 years old in 2008, the R44's will be 36. I also can't believe the TA wouldn't take the opportunity to increase the fleet size.
You're still fighting a losing battle. Check the strategic business plan and see the scope of the SMS for the R-44s and R-32s. The TA is committed to keeping the a large part of the R-32s past 50 years.
David
David
While a modest fleet expansion is planned, the TA is constrained by a lack of places to put the cars overnight. Cars are stored on the ROW, which makes them vulnerable.
There is an expansion of the Jamaica Yard being planned, and if the SAS is built a new yard may be added in the Bronx. These possibilities are a ways off.
It's amazing the constraints that you never considered that you find out about when you work for NYCT.
The talk around Livingston is that Concourse Shop's rehab would be accelerated and the yard expanded to handle the SAS. I've seen nothing in writing, though.
And those were with entirely carbon steel bodies! The cars under consideration are mostly stainless.
The R44's are also stainless steel cars. And they're 8 years younger.
I think it's wiser to keep the R44 in service at least until it reaches it's 40th year, rather than gambling that the R32 will remain mechanically reliable and economical well into the next decade.
Either way, a large post R160 car order will be necessary by 2012-2015, to replace all the 1970's 75' cars.
Personally, if Car Equipment can keep them running, I wouldn't mind dropping the options for now, and keeping the R32s until 2014. Better to use the money for the Second Avenue, the Broadway-Lafayette-Bleeker connection, the Jay-Lawrence connection, and other economic pattern changing investments
At the every least, the MTA should not expand the fleet through additional purchases if the SAS is built. It should keep the R32s for rush hours instead. Let 'em go 60 and beat the Q units!
Maybe, but it matches stuff I've seen inside NYCT. Not that the TA couldn't change its mind, depending on the relative condition of the cars, but that IS the plan it the official description of the capital project.
Within a day, another knowledgeable NYCT insider posted conflicting information.
Needless to say, neither knowledgeable NYCT insider was armed with the final plan, since there was no final plan at the time.
Structural problems, if confined to certain areas of the car (e.g., only the roof), are possibly cheaper to repair than recurring mechanical problems.
AFAICT, the rust issue on the R-38 through R-42 is confined pretty much to the roof. I don't know if it costs more to replace a roof than to replace (or deal with) troublesome R-44 mechanical parts, but then again neither do you. Let's leave this decision to the experts, shall we?
I don't know if it costs more to replace a roof than to replace (or deal with) troublesome R-44 mechanical parts, but then again neither do you. Let's leave this decision to the experts, shall we?
With all of the superglue and tape they use, I can't tell which is more costly at this point :-? I agree with you and lets leave the determination of cost it to the experts.
You are right about one thing. We're all speculating. I'm just poking holes in other people's speculations. If the R44 does get retired before any other car type, then most R32's will have to survive more than 50 years, into the next major B division contract. I simply don't see how it's possible.
David
It would seem that the TA does see that it's possible.
Right. Stainless steel, especially modern mixed rusts at a much slower pace than carbon steel, but it will still rust given enough time.
Whose feeding you this stuff?
wayne
The components that plagued the R44's at delivery were completely re-designed during rebuilding. Today's R44 issues are entirely different from 1971's.
Yes the issues are different but it STILL involves components, like the lack of air-conditiong.
R160: 1,700 cars
1,829 > 1,700
Problem?
If they really want to replace the R44 by 2008-9, a supplemental R160 order will be necessary. That's always a possibility.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
Most transit agencies have their capital programs funded exclusively by the federal government. For the MTA, the leading source of funds is money borrowed from future taxpayers and farepayers.
Pardon my while I barf.
Besides, the fare hike was unavoidable.
Exactly!!!
Besides, the fare hike was unavoidable.
If the fare hike is postponed beyond one's natural life spen or ability to ride the subway then it IS avoidable.
So, you're agreeing with me that using capital funds to pay for day-to-day ops is bad?
If the fare hike is postponed beyond one's natural life spen or ability to ride the subway then it IS avoidable.
When the funding of day-to-day operations incurs debt (which is what using capital funds would be) you're putting off the fare hike. But that debt builds up to the point that no one will loan you money. Then you're stuck with an enormous debt, and you don't have anymore cash coming in from more loans. Sounds bad to me.
They surely do! Consider when they sell bonds: Somebody, like Standard & Poor's or Moodys gives them a credit rating. Too low, and they won't be able to sell the bonds. You could acrue a low rating by constantly issuing new bonds before your old ones mature.
The same would work with loans. SOMEBODY has to loan the state the money. It has to come from somewhere (they can't just tell a ta employee, 'we owe you this one in the future', and then call it debt). If they keep using loans, nobody will loan to them in the future.
Let's also keep in mind: the MTA must maintain a balanced budget. Using debt to fuel day-to-day operations would be a violation of the state's rules. Besides, the state already uses debt to fund enough things. Doubt that they'd want to have yet another agency using debt as the end to achieve their means.
--Andrew
In government, as well as business, you have to provide for tomorrow as well as today. if you don't, then today will be all you get.
--Andrew
Unfortunatley, politicians need only worry about today and the immediate future to keep their jobs. With term limits, who cares what problems the next schmuck has to deal with?
Replacing an unreliable car with a reliable car is a straightforward investment.
What cars are getting new floors? Which cars aren't?
Surprisingly, I saw an R32GE with new floors the other day.
:-) Andrew
(just kidding David, no rent control discussions....)
I must be getting old. I remember when the R44's replaced the R1-9 on the Queens Blvd line. I was about 9.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Seek and you shall find:
Culver Shuttle-Ft Hamilton Pkway
Franklin Shuttle
In thinking back on this I recall that the IRT cars are actually not nine feet wide. I believe the exact width is 8'9 1/2', while the BMT cars are ten feet wide so the extra 2 1/2 inches makes a big difference.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That is Stillwell Ave. The platform light fixtures are a giveaway. As for the gap, there is one there if you look carefully.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wherealong Stillwell Avenue is the water like *RIGHT THERE* next to platform??
1 Boggled 9
Mmmmmmkay... so if Stillwell doesn't LOGICALLY have water THAT close to the tracks,
then where on Transit Property was that pic taken??
I was implying the area on the LOWER LEFT of the pic...
from the cab window down... looks like a sea of water... or no?
Yes, even though this one's an oldie, it documents how far we've come exchanging ships with sails for ships with rails ...
Red Shirts for Victory
Long ago, when sailing ships ruled the waves, a captain and his crew
were about to be boarded by a pirate ship. As the crew became
frantic, the captain bellowed to his First Mate, 'Bring me my red
shirt!'
The First Mate quickly retrieved the captain's red shirt, which the
captain put on and led the crew to victory.
Later that day, the lookout screamed that there was another pirate
ship on the horizon. The crew shivered in fear, but the captain, calm
as ever bellowed, 'Bring me my red shirt!' And once again the battle
was on. Another victory!
That night, weary from the battles, the men sat around on deck
recounting the day's occurrences. An ensign looked to the Captain
and asked, 'Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before the battle?'
The Captain, giving the ensign a look that only a captain can give,
exhorted, 'If I am wounded in battle, the red shirt does not show the
blood and thus you men will continue to fight unafraid.' The men sat
in silence, marveling at the courage of such a man.
As dawn came the next morning, the lookout screamed that there
was a pirate ship on the horizon. Then another! And another, ten of
them in all!
The men became silent and looked to the Captain for his usual
command.
The Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, 'Bring me my brown trousers!'
(for those who missed it elsewhere, this is OVER a meg in size, but if you get a chuckle here and there when I write this nonsense, then THIS one will REALLY amuse you) ... requires Shockwave Flash version 4 or later (which most browsers can already do) ... and WELL worth the 5 minutes of entertainment whether you BOW to the COW or not :)
http://www.shagrat.net/Html/cows.htm
Hopefully they'll play those cow commercials for Keystone Resort this winter on the radio.
Pigs are welcome too ... OINK!
Could be worse. You could be living on Jackass Hill Road. Or Fishkill.
And YES, the official greeting in MOOERS, NY is "want fries with that? Wanna SUPERSIZE?"
That's not water in the background, but it looks like it. The R-15's were poised on the Sea Beach track. The background was probably dirt lots before it was developed with the high rise housing seen today.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe that the background was "brushed out" to make the train the main subject of the picture. We are confusing the brushed out background as the tide coming up on the sand.
They did the same brushing out with the publicity shots of the R-16, but not to that extreme.
Karl: I agree with you. Many of my favorite pictures had too much air-brushing.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
CC: It obvious that you are a gentleman of high moral character. Now if Selkirk was onboard tonight he would have known the kind of pictures I was refering to.
Like R-9's with their couplers off"""
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Heypaul with his witty thoughts
The Bob and Fred Show
Kev and his brand of humor (moos and neener-neeners included)
Dougie and his fondness for Luciano and the Franklin Ave. shuttle (not to mention the Three Stooges)
Wayne and his trainspotting and subway horror stories
Our West Coast videographer
Our East Coast videographer
And our esteemed host, wondering how he managed to create such a monster.:)
NO MORE SACRILEGE OF OUR SACRED COWS UPSTATE! NOW you've crossed the line with your "moo" jokes! Unca Selkirk has GOTTEN religion!
This TREAT requires Shockwave Flash 4 or better (almost EVERY browser already has it) to enjoy ... take a minute, get a REAL chuckle by taking it in:
http://www.shagrat.net/Html/cows.htm (warning, BIG file, but WORTH the wait ... moo.)
Don't MESS with our bovines upstate. You think RATS are scary? Woof!
Just *DO* it ... and STOP blaspheming our udderly-ridiculous fellow tenants or I call de landlard and YOU'LL be sorry. :)
Moo.
Unless they're mystical.
Changed the header because I'm about to start off a PYTHING war, I'm sure ... but what IS it about folks who take pictures of trains, using that as but one point? While I *love* seeing the pictures all over nycsubway.org of all sorts of NIFTY pictures of trains that you cannot photograph anymore because they're gone, aside from the particular station settings and the particular event, they all pretty much look the SAME. SAME perspective shot of a train shot from the opposite platform, tracks, NO PEOPLE. To me, the PEOPLE are what make trains real. No offense intended ...
And when it comes to shots of the cars, no SIDE shots, no FRONTAL shots, not much in the way of undercar details, cabs, closeups of "straps" or particular distinguishing things like louvers, panel details, signage ... the kind of things that folks who WORK on trains could more easily grab (we've chased those folks away, so we don't GET to see the innards of battery boxes, grid assemblies, details of current collectors, shoe fuses and such anymore) but no longer do.
And mind ya, I don't object to the perspective shots, but it's become SO "me too" ... Now me, I'm into "buxom brunettes" and "interesting people of all types" - "mystical chicks" included, but not put apart as a separate specialty ... but when I heard that photogs were YELLING at people for "being in the shot" at a few of these "foamerfests" it seriously makes me wonder what some people's malfunctions are.
A TRAIN is a CONVEYANCE ... its purpose is to get PEOPLE from hither to yon. In MY eye, PEOPLE are JUST as important as the trains! People are the reason for their EXISTENCE. Many of the older, classic photos we've all enjoyed of the bygone cars had PEOPLE on the platforms, PEOPLE getting on or off the train ... that made it so much more real, at least for me. If you wanna take a picture of just the equipment, I'd expect that a tour of YARDS might be the ideal place for that. And with proper safety measures, you could GET that "head on shot" that would make for a particularly distinguishing photo. The ONE thing that impressed me even more so when I became a motorman was how *HUGE* those cars are FROM THE GROUND as I was about to climb up onto them in the yard. Woof! Imposing! :)
Ain't seen ANY pictures like that here. And before morons decide to go BAG that shot, Unca Selkirk *STRONGLY* urges you NOT to without proper 1500 volt insulated shoes, PLUS "structure walk" and "track safety" training ... you can easily be KILLED trying to get that valued shot. No big deal though for those WITH the TA ... now do ya see why I keep whining about the "Train Dude" and other TA employee types being harassed off this board? Wonder WHY now? THEY could be doing this, and they USED TO before a bunch of smartasses blew it. :(
And as for tastes and styles, put that thing back in your pants before you hurt someone. Heh. To ME, a picture of a TRAIN should involve the people who use it, makes the train more important. I think we're collectively CONFUSING personal interests here ... if the EQUIPMENT was the focus of our "gee, my spacesuit's feeling a bit tight looking at this now" (as opposed to spacesuit adjustments owing to "mystical chix") then wouldn't be even BETTER if we had CLOSE-UPS of arc'ing third rail shoes REALLY close up, or shots of cab panels, or those little bathandles in the middle of the ventholes on R-10's, aor a CLOSEUP of a GE fan on the ceiling of an Arnine, or perhaps, the SCREWS of an R-16's modified R44 door motors "slant panel" or the fine detail work of the BASE of a standee pole, or perhaps car BUILDER PLATES of a bygone era, or the PERFECTLY rendered color of an R16 interior so museums can use that as a "color match" when they go to repaint theirs?
Maybe PERFECT letter by letter of "CITY OF NEW YORK" as painted once in GOLD leaf on the sides of Arnines, or a closeup of each INDIVIDUAL LED in an R143 bulkhead letter sign so someone trying to do a BVE layout and making their own art could PERFECTLY reproduce it?
The ONES who MUST have "equipment only" shots have a PERFECT MINDSET and the PERFECT opportunity to grab DETAILS of what is to document for the FUTURE as they're gone. I challenge all the "Flushing PHOTOGS" out there ... how *MANY* rivets are there on the outer storm door panel between roof and anticlimber? Anyone PHOTO it so we have *PROFF*? Nope, another ho-hum "perspective shot" on a 30 degree angle ... (yawn)
That's all I'm sayin' ... now PUT that thing back in your pants before we gotta call a doctor. :)
Once again, folks ... don't mind ME ... to me a TRAIN and a PLATFORM was WORK ... if you HAVEN'T been through civil service, schoolcar and crew rooms, PLEASE forgive me ... when you WORK a train, the world takes on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT perspective.
Lemme tell you my OWN story. Before going back to Branford for the very first time, as a former motorman with so-called "friends" here who never post to me anymore (must be my politico-bashing which, is WELL deserved for whatever incumbents there happen to be, I bash ALL incumbents equally regardless of column and row) ... before going, I was embarassed out of my teat that I couldn't IMAGINE remembering what the breaker panels looked like and which was which after all that time - it's different of course when you're STILL a motorperson, but the memories of long-gone cars were JUST as vague ... hell, when I'd get sent out on a 32 instead of an arnine on the D, I'd forget WHERE the open and close buttons were and get it wrong and NOTHING ... thank ghads that the KEY remained in the hole, or when the lights all finally went out, the train would have been delayed MORE ... I *loved* the arnines, because you'd just reach under, pull your metal front and back at once, OpenSesamme, and you'd pop your caps, doors would close, all lights off, indication fairy went forward when all relays closed, as SOON as you just popped'em, you were DONE ... only thing you had to worry about was watching the front of car 1 and the ass of car 10, you could SEE it, and you were done ... step down, throw gate back onto its holders, NEXT STOP ... didn't even have to play golden throat announcer! EASY!
If it weren't for someone to be kind enough to email me photos of the breaker panels, the door-side cab switches and other details, I had already completely forgotten how to run an arnine - after all, it was only about 10 months of 54 years of wasting space on this planet. :)
Where I'm going with all this muck is ... we've LOST the opportunities of what was once posted here by the KINDNESS of TRUE afficianados, most of the with the TA when they posted of detailed photos and descriptions of all the extreme mechanical minutae (with wreck photos, schematic portions, compressor fuses, grids, all of that stuff that would ANSWER "how does this stuff work and what's below the floor") and I'm lamenting that all we're seeing while cars are getting cut up and buried and sunk, that out "uberphoamerswithlenses" aren't bagging the DETAILS, and how those who COULD got chased away. I'd give my left nut to see a BCO valve on an R36 before it goes swimming ... as well as an OPENED rollsign box, showing the gears ... or a shot UP the "crankhole" to show us what TYPE (not size) of TORX screw is up in there so folks can't steal the knobs ...
Then again, anyone is invited to point me to the picture here on subtalk that SHOWS a left-handed screwthread which was used in the arnines to keep depression era people from stealing the IND's lightbulbs. Nope ... ain't seen THAT either.
THAT'S my point in my whinings here ... the DETAILS are lost in the shuffle as we all try to make yet another (yawn) 143 with tail lights. :(
I haven't SEEN an arnine manual in over 33 years now, but they were FORMIDABLE ... and another thing ONLY TA employees in UMD can tell you is that schoolcar has LITTLE to do with learning (hands-on) how to RUN 'em, that's only a couple of days worth of "two inches forward, four inches back" In terms of "Hedwig and the angry inch" (a movie, look it up) and LOTS of "book-learnin'" and SIGNAL TEST preps (and you'd BETTER pass with a high score) ... but yeah, having the book and KNOWING your switches and breaker sequences DOES make a difference as to whether you'll depart on time, or not. :)
I have two prints of R-16 6400. Both are the same shot. One has very little "brushing". The second has much more.
It's interesting to note that all publicity shots of the R-16's display IND's A 8th Ave, Wash Hts 207th St on their end signs. I know for a fact that they were first used on BMT's Jamaica line.
--Mark
As for scratchiti, that is something quite more difficult to handle. I know the 'Millenium' cars have a special plastic film which for the most part handles the problem, though older rolling stocks don't have the film yet. I believe the MTA announced plans that they would place the film on the windows of older rolling stock. I wonder what became of it?
Well they should put them on the R68 some of them need it ASAP! While they're at it maybe thye could put that film on the R62 rollsign window on the inside ;-D.
.....and taking them to Penn Station and make them do chin ups on the catenary wire !
Bill "Newkirk"
Originally I would state to give them a box of Brillo pads and make them shine the third rail, but now the more I think about it, it would be an insult to Brillo pads !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ouch! Vandal, Vandal, Getcha Barbequed Vandal!
What about the stations? Looking at pics, i see they also have graffiti.
:-)
When I passed the Yonkers plant several weeks ago there was no sign of activity.
What is the story!
Incognito
wayne
They have to put brake shoes on the things, unwrap the chains and all that kind of stuff.
The main trip photos can be found at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-11-03-NYCERS-TRIP-TO-PHILLY/
And the tower related pics can be found here. Don't be fooled, the tower pics have both trains and subtakers in them so check them out even if you are not usually a tower person.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And of course some teasers.
An Acela Express train passing through the interlocking.
A CSX train passing through on what is now called the Delair Branch on its way to South Jersey.
The group of Subtalkers having a little fun with me.
An old SEPTA Almond Joy in work train service stored at the 69th St shoppes.
A wonderful sky seen at the PATCO Woodcrest station after the completion of the trip.
The E Train where useing R32's and ran to 179 St. The F Train had R46's with a few R32's running on that line(I almost had one today @ Van Wyck Blvd but train did not stop and had people on it).
The E Shuttle(Union Turnpike-Jamaica Center) for weeks 1 and 2 where useing R46's but today there where useing... GET THIS!!! R32'S!!! Saw 3 of them on the shuttle today. One of them had a Ornage Stripe underneath the Car # Plate
wayne
As usual, I drove to Hamilton and took NJT to Dunellen via Newark.
The steam train had NJT GP40PH-2B #4209 on the rear for backup moves, but it was ass backwards, so when the horn blew for grade crossings, it blew into the coaches.
I didn't get to the train show and layouts because I didn't feel like walking (somebody told me it was nearly a mile) in the rain, so I got a shot of #142 flying through Dunellen station at speed.
Boo! Hiss! What is this world coming to?
so I got a shot of #142 flying through Dunellen station at speed.
Define "at speed." Do you mean like 20mph? Or like 50mph?
This is from the another message board, on the subject of the long hood forward Geep on the ass end of the train:
As the engineer on the diesel end of the train, allow me a couple of observations. First off, I always enjoy seeing the results of those trackside for our(NYS&W T&HS) excursions. Given the rarity of mainline steam these days, I wasn't suprised to see as many people as I did. Second, the NYSW E-9's were not available this time, and were missed. I always enjoy running these units, with their unusual PS-68 brake schedule and the old fashioned rope from the roof for the horn, versus the modern day pull valve or push button. Their cab signals are in compliance with NJT's , so using them is no problem.
(I even *dragged* a classmate up and over at marathon-speed at
42-TS just to board that sole 2 train consist when I spotted it
coming northbound....)
Shame it never got to see it's bigtime.
The announcements smooth and UNDERSTANDABLE... easy on the ears..
the accelerate/braking was almost unfelt.. sure looked nice against a sea of B and D hippos on CPW.
Besides, these cars were meant as prototypes for the upcoming cars during the time of their testing. They cars themselves were never planned to be produced en masse.
Additionally, you can make production models of prototypes. The military does it all the time with fighter contracts.
The "triple" seats on the R-44/46/68s can be a problem. Often the middle seat is vacant unless someone is willing to squeeze in.
Besides, these cars were meant as prototypes for the upcoming cars during the time of their testing. They cars themselves were never planned to be produced en masse.
They did go into production, their production is the R143's. There were never meant to be any more R110's, they were test trains from the beginning. What they learned while using the R110's were put to use on the R143's. I do agree though, although I like the R143's quite a bit, I do like the look of the R110's a bit more for various reasons.
As for the R142 vs the R110A, I'm not particularly fond of the interior or exterior of the R142, and although I kind of liked the exterior of the R110A, I didn't really care for it's interior.
Its good that they decided to keep all bench seats on the IRT stock in the future. The 28 seat capacity combined with extra wide doors wasn't going to cut it alright but the exterior of the 110A's were pretty nice.
avid
If that had happened, what would serve Sutphin/Hillside?
CG
I think it was "R46 Side Rollsign" or something like that.
R46 Side Rollsign
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Elias
You mean it was just a Dyre-180th shuttle with 10' wide cars? No way it could have connected to the rest of the IND system.
-- Ed Sachs
On one of the fantrips this year we stopped at Pelham Parkway Station on the Dyre Avenue Line and it was very easy to see the extensions attached to the sides of the platforms.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The Dyre Avenue Line operated between Dyre Avenue Station and the "180 Street-Bronx Park" of the former NYW&BRR.
Thru service via the #2 began on May 4, 1957 and ran from about 6am-8pm with shuttles until midnight. There was still no midnight service until June 27,1958.
Although thru service began on May 4, 1957 the flyover north of East 180 Street was completed some years earlier.
There never was any regular service between Dyre Avenue and Grand Central however on May 18, 1973 a northbound #5 derailed just south of GCT. On the following day (Saturday) all Lexington Avenue services (4-5-6) turned at Grand Central with a single track #6 shuttle between GCT and 14 St and another one between 14 Street and Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know the date of the photo you saw but on that Saturdat #5 trains were signed up Dyre Aveue-Grand Central.
The cars involved in the derailment were (n-s) 6239,7912-7771,7093,6633,7733,5822,6598,7051,7620.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I wondere if that 6 shuttle started on the shuttle track at Grand Central.
That would've been a hell of a short train... ouch, talk about crush loaded!
One shuttle single tracked on the southbound local between Grand Central (Lex) and 14 Street. It stopped at 14 Street on the express track. The second shuttle single tracked on the southbound local between 14 Street and Brooklyn Bridge.
Normal service was restored late Saturday afternoon less than 24 hours after the derailment.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
My theory: some railfan / kid / other noun had been playing with the rollsigns.
Interesting that one of the current museum cars (6239) was involved in the derailment.
Only ONE time did a police officer stop to talk to me. And it wasn't to question what I was doing -- only thing he asked was "How's the action today?" and we had a very friendly 15-minute chat about what had come through, etc.
I go up to Tehachapi and Cajon Pass and Beaumont Pass all the time. And NEVER have train crews called in on me, I always get a wave (if they run with open windows) or a few toots of the horns (when they're running with the a/c on). Never, ever have seen any railroad police around.
Sir, While I defer to noone over our civil righs, and in my view the cop oin the earlier 9incident was out of line, resorting to INS threats makes you no better than the cop. She has a RIGHT to voice her fears.. If she remains uptight despite your (presumably rational and non threatening) explanatipons too bad. I don't care where she might hace been born--my father was an imigrant too.
See ya on the subway
I was up in Washington state in July, and while waiting for a ferry (everyone's favorite pastime up there...) noticed a Notice on the wall with the rest of the service notices.
I guess by what the notice said, we're all a bunch of terrorists. The notice said something to the effect of "Be Suspicious and Report Anyone" photographing vessels, bridges, rail equipment, buildings, monuments, etc.
Personally, I think all this so-called "National Security" is a bunch of BULLSHIT. It's a false front to make people "think" things are better off. All this National Security stuff is simply SHOWTIME.
The real problem is our so-called government who let all the problem children in, never kept tabs on them when their visa ran out, etc.
It's interesting that you mention Washington state. I was in San Francisco and Seattle last week for a series of meetings in some of each cities top office towers. I was very surprised at the lack of any effective security in those buildings.
CG
New York, as usual, seems to suffer from the worst paranoia. How absurd.
Omigod! What was that! Oh. Sorry. False Alarm.
CG
I see nothing wrong with free access to an office building.
Then I guess you have no problem with purse snatchers roaming the cubicles during the day and whoever happens to be in the neighborhood setting up shop in the restrooms.
I've worked in buildings -- class A space, including 7 WTC -- where there were rashes of disappearing purses, people roaming around trying to sell things and assorted others making their way into the workspace. It doesn't create an atmosphere that makes people feel warm and fuzzy about their employer.
It's worth noting that after Feb '93, they had photo ID security at 7 WTC -- and we never had problems with trespassers again.
CG
CG
Sounds like the subways! Perhaps we need to give everyone photo ID so that way we can keep those panhandlers out! :-0
(sounds silly, doesnt it!)
"One dolla,one dolla,one dolla"
Oh, I'll HAVE TO HANG OUT THERE! I hear alot of the girls in the Bay area are mystical and wear dragon clips. Bring on the roast pork!
I was at the freestyle wrestling world championships at Madison Square Garden yesterday. We saw all seven of the women's matches and four of the men's before it got so late we had to leave. Anyway, Japanese women won gold medals in five of the seven women's weight categories - and not one of them had the sort of stereotypically long mystical hair that drives you wild. In fact, they all had very short hair.* Good thing you weren't there, you would have been very disappointed.
* = why they had short hair I can't understand; it wasn't necessary for the sport, as some of the women wrestlers from other countries had long hair.
How quickly what was considered extreme has become the norm. Public office buildings used to be just that, open to the public during regular business hours. Any security guard in the lobby was just to direct anyone who did not know where the office they were looking for was. It was only after business hours that any type of a visitor register was maintained. Only restrooms were kept locked with all tenants having keys.
Personally I much preferred it that way. A business that relies on clients and potential clients visiting the premises can be negatively affected by such tight security, and of course, the cost of this security is passed along to the tenants in the rent. In most cases there is no rational need for so much security.
Of course, previously only the very rich lived in guarded gated communities, and now many more people feel that is important also.
Tom
What I'm hoping is that commercial tenants begin complaining about the extra security costs, and that building owners begin to cut back on the number of guards. It may take a while, but eventually it may happen - unfortunately, New York (naturally!) is likely to be the last holdout. Another serious problem is the number of buildings that have set up turnstile access systems in their lobbies. Systems like that certainly aren't cheap, and it may be a long time before the building owners are willing to change.
No, no, no! The problem is the arbitrary classification of people as "illegal", thus giving them no interest in integrating into society and therefore putting them at higher risk of harming that society.
I don't think it's helpful alienating people because they look different or are poorer than you or simply happened not to be born on a ranch in Texas.
Uh, sorry. The brother was right the first time. There most certainly can be a reason to classify someone as illegal. There's nothing arbitrary about it. You aren't thinking clearly on the subject.
Only if they have personally committed a crime. Anything else is generally referred to as prejudice.
There's nothing arbitrary about it. You aren't thinking clearly on the subject.
I am afraid I am thinking perfectly clearly. I hate to use such an inflammatory phrase, but discriminating against someone because of where they happened to be born is tantamount to racism.
Do not run away with selfishness and fear. It simply doesn't help.
Who the blank mentioned anything about race??!! And who the blank mentioned anything about discrimination??!! If you follow all the laws you're not illegal. You could be white as snow, black as coal, brown as the ground, etc., etc., etc. It doesn't matter. What does matter is the adherence to the laws regarding a persons citizenship status. If you attempt to reside in this wonderful nation you must follow the requirements. If you don't, you will be classified as "illegal".
I take it from your post that you are in favor of completely open borders, something that Great Britain certainly does not have. In fact most countries have some sort of immigration procedures, and those who go to a country without respecting those laws are considered illegal residents in that country.
Tom
MIchael
Wash, DC
How exactly did she do this? Just curious...
"Why am I taking pictures?"
"Why am I doing it on a Friday"?
"Why do I keep coming back?"
My answers havw always been cordial and friendly.
Last Friday,(9/5/03) this woman (and another woman to) went to The MTA policeman and told him "I was making them feel terrified and scared and that I was breaking the law and they wanted me removed from there" The cop then gave me hell,and I stood my ground.The point is this.Had those 2 women not said anything,its possible I wuld have never been harassed by the cop in the first place!!! The 1 woman in particular was just a troublemaker.And I let her know that.I told her what I told her and that is that!! What truly amazes me is how knee-jerk some of you people get over my posts.Man,you would think I am the most evil,vile sadistic human being on earth.
No offense, but if I heard you say to a woman that you "would go to the INS and have her greedy foreign ass deported back to the third world cesspool she came from!" and make her cry I would probably break your camcorder over your head.
If it only happens to you and not other posters, you might consider the source of the reaction is your posts rather than a knee jerk reaction from others.
>>> Man,you would think I am the most evil,vile sadistic human being on earth. <<<
We can only judge by your posts.
Tom
Get...a...life.
Good for you! Hopefully this idiot woman will think twice in the future.
Seriously, the thing about Mineola during Friday evening rush is, the platforms are usually packed, especially the westbound side with the long gap--over an hour--between inbound trains while LIRR runs eastbounds on both tracks. Anyone who feels "frightened" because someone (who keeps showing up no less) is shooting video from the overpass is an idiot. Even more ridiculous, at least to me, the westbound station house is decorated inside with shots of LIRR trains at Mineola. You shoulda asked the woman AND the cop to go take a look. Maybe the cop could report this 'security breach' to his superiors. Might even be a promotion in it for him!
-Larry
Chuck Greene
Click Here
That is, while I was recording.
Then it must be ok.
The rules aren't really clear on audio recording. Since video recording is legal, I assume audio is too.
Personally I would simplify everything by painting all stations in the color of their native line (i.e. gray for all L stations, blue for all A/C/E stations). For mixed lines, either majority rules or alternate between the colors.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indcolor.html (Use copy and paste)
I personally don't know why Elmhurst has yellow columns but the walls are the same color I think.
No clue about any of your other questions.
Metropolitan Av on the G once had red beams (according to the pictures here on this site) but the beams are now a more-matching and complimentary shade of dark green.
Metropolitan Av on the G once had red beams (according to the pictures here on this site) but the beams are now a more-matching and complimentary shade of dark green.
Some other G-line stations have blue I-Beams.
Whoever it was that decided that the I-Beams at Queens Plaza should be painted Hathaway Gold should have their eyes examined. That color belongs at Union Turnpike, Van Wyck and Sutphin. Same for all other stations that don't match. Funny thing is, there are quite a few others on the Queens IND that DO match (i.e. Steinway, Grand to 67 Ave inclusive, 71 and 75 Avenue, Parsons, etc.)
They've got it right along the Fulton IND wherever they have I-Beams.
Brown/Dark Brown should be allowed as an I-Beam color. Grey should not.
It's OK to use Black as a wildcard (i.e. 168th St-Broadway).
wayne
I remember that horrid color at the Union Square complex, etc, etc(and Van Alst, Flushing, 7th Ave, Wyckoff-Myrtle Complex). What a horrendous color!
....Plum Passion:
No columns to paint.
-57th/6th?
"Anything goes"
-Grant Avenue
.....cover those hideous tiles.....
I think it is the station superintendent who decides what color he/she wants.
wayne
On the contrary, I think it would be better to ensure that different stations on the same line have different color schemes. Much more helpful to regular travellers, giving them good subconcious visual cues as to when to get off.
I'm sure most travellers could cope with all stations on a given line painted the same, but it would tend to make travelling a less pleasant experience (or perhaps more unpleasant depending on how much of a subway nut you are).
I know the Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway does deliberately do just this. I doubt the NY subway does it deliberately.
No, anyone who KNOWS what the decay behaviors AND the aquatic life for REAL will tell you, this is a GOOD thing, no downside. And even better, as the remaining ferrous material dissolves, even the plastic-lined asbestos packets that were in the wall will be encapsualted in CORAL, which is even better than the rust they're in now as far as "containment" goes ...
I live upstate, I live *in* "the environment" ... I *insist*, like most of my neighbors here, that chemicals NOT be put on lawns or meadows, we mulch our clippings, we mulch our dead trees, we have insects and critters running whereever they please, the deer whiz and take dumps on our lawn, no need for anything artificial. God is our gardener up here. When ants invade the house, I learn how to make them want to go somewhere else. When we have "mini-rats" who want to come in, we torture them with peppermint oil so they'll go somewhere ELSE. With all this simple "farm life" reality, it's exposed me to the sensibilities of environmental protection, as well as the out and out "kook factor" of envirokooks and the PeTA people ... when y'all have TREES and BAMBIS on your property (if you WANT a bambi for your OWN back yard, email me and bring a truck, they're FREE!), we'll talk. :)
But dem rustboids ain't hurting a THING down in the drink, and they're REALLY HELPING by being there. Coral reefs not only provide a safe environment for ABUNDANT small fish and spawn, but they ALSO serve to provide tidal wave attenuation, storm surge protection, and enrich the ocean around them. While I believe FIRMLY that the feds should pay to remove "World Trade Center dust" in the Bronx and Westchester (and as far out as ISLIP, as well as REMOVE everyone from Staten Island and declare it a toxic "dead zone", YES< it's THAT contaminated) those redbirds are nothing but win-win-win, solid GOOD where they're getting dumped. The rust will be gone by 30 years from now and all that will be left is natural formations where they WERE. And "rust" is ABUNDANT on the ocean floors just from the natural runoff of exposed iron ore veins in rivers, where humankind never existed (and we're running out of THOSE) ...
But the birdies did something no other subway car has done ... they weren't cut up with torches to become TOYOTAS or JEEPS, nope ... the redboids are going to GIVE US FISH! No OTHER subway car has EVER done that, except for the old PATH cars which are down there too. :)
http://www.nycosh.org/linktopics/WTC-catastrophe.html
Read all about the PHUCKING New York City residents got from their Shrub (who with his GOP cronies) STILL screwed the city and the state for the proper reparations for his bucktooth "bring it on" chit ...
Environmental issues are actually pretty simple. Leave it to GOD and don't throw motor oil and its derivatives into it, and it CAN take care of itself if you don't SCREW with it ...
Unca Selkirk learned MUCH from the Delaware and the Mohawk who live here (no, NOT the damned railroad) ... and WHAT I learned REALLY works, right down to peppermint to drive away the field mice, and diatomaceous earth to drive away the ants ... If mankind learns to live WITH nature, instead of fighting it, we COULD have been civilized. Instead, all we've got is ExxonMobil and this cheaparsed SHRUB ...
The old Cherokee chief sat in his reservation hut, smoking a ceremonial pipe, eyeing the two US government officials sent to interview him.
"Chief Two Eagles," one official began, "you have observed the white man for many generations, you have seen his wars and his products, you have seen all his progress, and all his problems." The chief nodded. The official continued, "Considering recent events, in your opinion, where has the white man gone wrong?"
The chief stared at the government men for some time, and then
calmly replied. "When white man found the land, Indians were running it.
We had:
* No taxes.
* No debt.
* Plenty buffalo.
* Plenty beaver.
* Women did the work.
* Medicine man free.
* Indian men hunted and fished all the time."
The chief smiled, and added quietly, "White man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."
Whoops. But UPSTATE, we're happy with what we have ... we GOTTA be ... the MONEY from OUR taxes gets spent DOWNSTATE to stop the whining. :(
-Robert King
On the other hand...seeing the Redbirds cut up with torches to become Toyotas or Jeeps... Funny, ain't it? It would be interesting riding the No. 7 past Shea Stadium with all those scrapyards and 'chopshops' and see some Redbirds there, cut up.
Water does not cause rust. Air Does! Rust is Oxidation, and requires oxygen, free oxygen. Think of it as a VERY SLOW fire. Water will put it out, just like it puts out a fire. On the other hand, water or moisture is required for rust to accur: rust occurs at the interface of water and air.
Elias
::goes diving for redbirds::
Elias
But I *like* the rain, it makes for good pictures, besides, I was going to Coney Island to get a Nathan's Hot Dog (or two) and the (N) TRAIND DOESN'T GO THERE ANYMORE! : (
Elias
Tsk tsk! Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust/
S/B < Q > on a R40 slant or modified with Cortelyou Road station in the distance.
Peace,
ANDEE
The bull and pinion gears on the R-1/9s and their moaning and groaning were music to my ears. It wasn't necessarily a mooing sound, but endearing nontheless.
Put it this way: when Kev tests a mike, he doesn't say, "Testing 1, 2, 3." He just blows into it and says moo.
Please, while my church welcomes ALL denominations, our FAVORITE is the $100 bill, and so far, ain't seen nothing larger than a Washington. Get OUTTA my cab! :)
Get it right...
Oh Bee-HIVE. :-D
It's that crank-wanker thingy we call "Uh-merican." Heh.
And now for something completely different:
or ANYONE who steps out of a Cooper and tries to be "kewl" :)
You know I'd much rather step out of an Arnine any day...
Interesting how far (or not) you could go with language in those days.
My favourite for disguised bad language is a character on the Goon Show, Sir Hugh Jampton.
Clue: Hampton Wick, rhyming slang
But you can say the letter K.
A man with three buttocks.
Haven't seen MENTION of any trains in the last HOW many responses? :)
Would it matter what those Nathan's customers had eaten? I'm not sure Nathan's serves beans.
Out here in the sticks, people STILL support their churches, no need for the gawdy.
1) Obsolescence, and:
2) Maintenance cost and breakdowns vs. the cost of replacement.
If you keep an asset too long, more and more components have to be replaced, and pretty soon it is uneconomic. But in India they run 120 year old steam trains. Why? Labor is cheap, so all the labor it takes to keep rebuilding them is cheaper (for them) than the cost of imported new equipment. People also aren't as persnickeny about delays due to breakdowns as New Yorkers.
As for obsolescence, the Redbirds are not stainless, and since labor is not cheap here, better to replace them than repaint, especially given the lead paint environmental requirements. Older classes were retired because they did not have air conditioning, and it was cheaper (in the long run) to buy new than to retrofit. Future classes may be retired instead of being retrofit for CBTC, or instead of being retrofit for AC traction and regenerative braking. Or they may be rebuilt with new technology. It all depends.
Our resident weather expert said that NY had more to fear from a mild earthquake (enough to knock down old bearing wall buildings) than a severe hurricane. The sharp edge of the hurricane would be unlikely to "thread the needle" between New Jersey and father out on Long Island.
Comforting words. Car to repeat them? Wouldn't mind hearing them. I have half a mind to head for Home Depot, buy plywood, and start cutting it window-sized.
The greatest risk for Isabel is to the Carolina Outer Banks and Eastern Shore of Delaware/Maryland at this time (see the National Hurricane Center's site and click on "Maps and Charts.")
But remember the bowler. Just a very small change in angle or velocity at the initial roll leads to a huge change in which "pin" is hit at the end of the bowling alley. The good news is that this country's investment in hurricane research & development (including the hurricane hunters, the NWS's numerical models, etc.) has resulted in pretty good understanding and results.
None-the-less, where there's substantial risk, the best course of action is to be prepared. Back on topic, for NYCT and its Coney Island facility, it means to have a plan in place so that if there is a threat within xx hours, the yard can be secured in less than xx hours. What xx = for CIY I don't know... that's for the planners in your building at 2 Broadway!
But if I were advising WMATA, I'd be planning NOW.
And that's... Transit and Weather Together
wayne
Do you think they'll ever rename the AA to just plain old A? Or was there ever a size A battery?
I managed to scrounge up 8 4-packs of "D", 2 8-packs of "AA" (we should call these "K"!) (we only have one flashlight that takes them, but we need them for the portable radio), and I have my battery-powered flourescent lantern charging away, it's only good for 48 hours on a full charge though.
I hope this storm stays away from LI, we'd be doomed if it gave us a direct hit.
wayne
Our company makes an R-series meter. I equate that to the R line, not Ralph.:)
(They don't recommend moving your trains out of low-lying yards :-)
Maybe they haven't thought of it.
Really, even without a direct hit you might get enough of a surge here to back up the Coney Island Creek. And we'd be up the creek if 20 percent of the fleet spent a few days under water.
Here at home, my wife is concerned about the rain, given that inland flooding has done most of the damage in the U.S. recently. Heck, we had a little water in just the other day -- it seemed to back up from the street. The backyard slopes toward the house, and there is a sunken area down some steps at basement level. We had a little pool back there.
As for prepareadness, if a Category 5 here to hit here, we'd head straight for the mezzanine level of the nearby IND station, away from the stairs.
But through many storms, the worst of which for the Brooklyn shore appear to have been winter nor'easters, not hurricanes, I can't think of an instance of significant damage north of Coney Island Creek.
I hope you are right, but I'm afraid 100 years may not be enough time to capture all possible "cases." Its like those guys and Long Term Capital Management, who though they had a foolproof system with 100 years of data, but then were bankrupted by market conditions what hadn't occurred in the prior 100 years.
I just remember the floods from rain that hit New Jersey and Westchester a few years ago, not to mention those that hit inland North Carolina a while back. If it hits the wrong place, this could be bad in several ways.
I see your point, but that's a different situation. River flooding is caused by too much water and too little river. Coastal areas are naturally well drained. You would have to have an incredible storm surge for significant flooding in area like NYC.
We had a terrible combination of circumstances for Hurricane Gloria in 1985 ... the hurricane coming in directly from the warm ocean (no "cove" effect like in NYC) bad time for high tides, etc., but the flooding part of the storm didn't come to more than a few blocks of Montauk Highway, the tradition all-weather highway of the South Shore.
In 1938, the storm did breach Montauk Highway on the east side, but that was a 135 MPH storm with an incredible 50 MPH forward speed.
Well, there is the issue of storm sewer capacity -- and catchbasin blockages due to litter (we've had a lot lately), leaves. I'm concerned that if we really get hit big the water may back up from the street. That could hit me hard.
Wouldn't be good for the subways, either.
Woodmere would be prone to flooding in anything over Catagory 1. And its usually flooding, not wind, that kills the most in hurricanes.
Still, it will take FOREVER for them to clear the roads of the downed trees up here. Could be days. And I dont feel comfortable being trapped for days in an isolated area. Maybe I'll just "hang out in the city" for the duration of the storm. I have been seeing an army of tree trimming trucks out there, maybe they can "clean up" most of the big trees out here.
I'm sure some of you will be out on the subway platforms getting some photos of redbirds in 100mph winds. :-)
wayne
Further down the line toward Shore road.
This line is in Port Washington. I've seen them sag alot worse than that. Also there are some transmission lines sagging in Mineola, I'd say the bottom wire is maybe 5-10 feet feet from the tree branch. Sorry, no pics of that...yet.
Look closely, there's a tree branch in between the insulators on that pole and those transformers. That's a major outage just waiting to happen.
My father worked for LILCO -- whenever there was a major storm on the east coast, they would send workers to that area to help in restoring power to the area. After any storm, he'd be gone for a week -- anywhere from Maryland to Massachusetts. If the storm hit L.I., he'd be out working with crews from upstate or somewhere else on the east coast restoring power to L.I.
Burying the power lines is no panacea, though. While outages are less frequent they are more severe -- as finding the problem and fixing it is much more time consuming.
CG
Notice that the "crossarm" is a metal mast, and the thin top wire (if you look closely) is lightning protection. And the metal squares that hold the wires together. Nice and tight too. This pic was taken in Rockville Centre.
I've lived a total of over 25 years in Manhattan and I've never had a weather-related or local power-line related power outage, only the regional non-weather-related failures and one or 2 where the actual power plant had a failure.
The only thing wrong with buried lines is that they are very expensive and as a result Manhattan's electric rates are among the highest in the country.
The blizzard effectively brought down all of the lines in the area. The response was to require them to be put underground.
Am I missing something here? Do you guys have something DIFFERENT prepared for me?
But the only thing I know I am guessing that would happin would be no subway service!
That would be four subway shutdowns in little more than two years.
1) WTC disaster.
2) Presidents Day blizzard.
3) Blackout of '03.
Add in the Blizzard of '96, and that's four in eight years.
The situation in 1996 was similar.
Hey, MY line shut down. That's all I need to know.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/html/readynewyork/hazard_hurricane_evaczones.html
I experienced a number of fairly severe hurricanes when I lived in Brooklyn, including Hurricane Hazel in (IIRC) 1954. I also remember another hurricane in which the eye passed over Flatbush--the winds and rain stopped, the sun came out, then it all started again about a half-hour or so later.
My point is that I never recall significant disruption of the subway system or loss of equipment, including at Coney Island Yard.
Now I realize Isabel is a pretty fierce storm, and forgive my layman's knowledge (or lack of) about hurricanes, but if the track were to shift north after grazing North Carolina wouldn't the combination of land on the west side of the storm and the colder water around New York take enough of the punch out to make Isabel a garden-variety hurricane for the City?
While everyone tends to focus on the "top wind speed," that's not the big problem. Over the long term, the single largest killer is flooding from rain. Not wind, not flying debris, not tornadoes that are spawned, not the storm surge. While each of these can do major dammage and cause fatalities, flooding from rain is the biggie.
Surely literally (at least in the US) the biggest killer is the storm surge. Doesn't the storm surge in Galveston/1900 outnumber all other deaths in the US combined?
1) E from 42nd St. to Roosevelt Av. [transfer] to Flushing-Main St.
OR
2) 7 from 42nd St. to Flushing Main St.?
Also:
Regarding the free MetroCard subway-subway and bus-subway transfers, if someone swipes someone in and gives the card to an "accomplice", who walks over to an adjacent station and swipes, is that considered a double charge or a "free transfer"? Does MetroCard know where the unique subway-subway transfers are (ex. LIC-Court Sq. G train stop, MetroCard transfer to the 7)?
Pay-per-ride MetroCards only give subway-to-subway transfers at designated points: Court Square/23rd-Ely, 45th Road, 63rd/Lex, 59th/Lex (all entrances), 51st-53rd/Lex (all entrances), Avenue X, Brighton Beach (with optional intermediate B68 ride), Stillwell (with optional intermediate B68 ride). Enter at any other station and you'll be charged another fare. Of course, with no exit swipes, the system has no way of knowing that you didn't exit at (say) 59th, run a quick errand, and reenter at the same station. Transfers are valid for approximately 2 hours and 18 minutes (but are only guaranteed for 2 hours).
Unlimited MetroCards do not consider those pairs to be single stations. In other words, if you swipe at 59th/Lex, you'll be locked out of 59th/Lex for 18 minutes, but you can enter 63rd/Lex right away.
http://arrts-arrchives.com/brbch1a.html
If the picture does not come out, I am trying to paste picture on message. So forgive me, I am trying on this one.
If the picture does not come out, I am trying to paste picture on message. So forgive me, I am trying on this one.
I guess this is the picture
Obviously, this could be a problem if the MetroCard were to get into wrong hands, but I really think this would be a really neat feature if the technology were available.
They could list something like the top five stations on a given day. Or how many swipes in the system in real-time. I just really think this would be something neat if the technology is there.
Just by looking at a Metrocard, you can't tell whether it's a pay-per-ride or an unlimited, or how much value or time it has left on it.
Some people on this board are also unhappy at the idea that their movements could be traced (since a particular Metrocard can also be linked to the credit or debit card used to purchase it) - there is a real personal privacy issue here. Of course this is avoidable by always using cash to buy your Metrocards.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
I like the "fisheye" cars, which were the MP-38s, never saw one in person, but have seen photos of them. Now THERE's and ugly train, with the goo-goo porthole windows and the "wart" headlamp up top.
wayne
Here's my question- At the time the IRT tookover the old railroad bridge it connected the 155th St El station with the Put tracks on the Bronx side of the Harlem River. So the IRT would've had to construct a new alignment for the bridge's east end tracks -away from the Put and into the IRT tunnel east of Sedgwick Avenue. Anybody know how this was done? Did the IRT tracks pass above the Put tracks or to the south or what? Photos show the bridge tracks as being on the same elevation as the Sedgwick Avenue Putnam tracks but the IRT tracks would've had to have been higher, right? Or not?
The New York Central Railroad ceased operation accross the Putnam Bridge on June 6, 1916. Through operation of 6th and 9th Avenue El trains did not begin until July 1, 1918 so there was almost two years to reconstruct the alignment.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That's right, if you have AIM or a compatible proggy, shoot an instant message to Chap11ChooChoo. I will then invite you into the chat. However, if you don't know what AIM is, don't have it, or don't know where to get it, you must be living under a rock, and I just can't help you. Me telling you would be:
IIRC, the 21:50 VCP 1 train (car 2190) was the first "press" train into the tunnel.
I was there, were you?
-Stef
Dude... it was the Pepsi thinking.
Tho you are a top candidate, easily!
If you look closely you can also see David J. Greenberger, Papa Choo Choo, and two of my non-subway-fan friends that I dragged there.
there was a PASSENGER train and a MEDIA/PRESS train just before it...
I was on the 21:50 VCP which became the MEDIA/PRESS/Contractor Company's train...
saw ya'll standing around at Chambers waiting for the NEXT train down...
=CI
I still got on, and turns out THAT train dumped at Chambers-- only
to continue onward into the Loop with photographers and videopeople
and members of the Contractor Company...
When we spun back around to Chambers nb, I saw the rest of you on the sb platform
just getting on thee (next and first) revenue train...
Lucky 9
Hey, that's MY lucky number! :)
[along with 7, 8, 16, 22, and 31]
Our "Train" stopped at SF too!.... they even waited two minutes
for people to hop off, get their photos, hop back on and onward go!
No one's winning this debacle, brah. (no matter how we cut it-- we ALL got a treat that eve)
You got yer mugshot in the Times. (Yay!)
I got myself a ride with the Contractors who BUILT the thang. (Yay!)
Fair, we call this even? lol
:)
1/9
We can go on and on and on till the Cows come to Canarsie!
Even Steven.
Littering? Because he threw up? That would make the Daily News front page. They should give him medical attention, not a ticket.
Right, but not loiter. If he's not riding the system somewhere, he's loitering, and trespassing. Same with a store; buying a stick of gum does not let you stay all day.
....c'mon, fess up. You were the bum's traveling partner.
Not an offense in the US. Found by the Supreme Court many years ago to be used mostly as a way to arrest any black person a police officer didn't like.
However, when in the subway system, you are expected to be using the subway system. You can't be arrested for just sitting there and ignoring all trains, but you can be escorted out of the system.
Or out of disguise?
OOPS that was you.
NO.
A - Wash Hights/8th Avenue
B - Wash Hights/6th Avenue
C - Concourse/8th Avenue
D - Concourse/6th Avenue
E - Queens/8th Avenue
F - Queens/6th Avenue
G - Bklyn/Queens Crosstown
H - Fulton Street
That was all the route combinations on the original systems. H was the last letter needed. If the 2nd System was built, they surely would have use more letters.
THE HYLAN ZONE
We can talk about a dream system where the IND was finished, but then it would have to be another trend.
What if, How if..............
:-)
SINCE WHEN: You've spent the last three years berating the hard working souls on this board that the Sea Breeze Line was the best when the Triplexes where running and they never carried an "N". It was a #4 Mr Sea Beach.
BTW Fred I have a campaign slogan for you if you decide to run for governor.
"A TRIPLEX IN EVERY STATION."
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
One last thing: 3/4 of the people got off at 59 St.-4th Avenue, meaning not too many people were going for the "ride".
NX trains ran in an absolute block through the Sea Beach stretch because the express tracks were not signalled. In other words, only one train could be anywhere in the open cut Sea Beach portion at any time.
The JFK line with a half plane - would looks nice
In 1960, the IND extended the letter code to the BMT, using letters J thru T.
Does anybody know what the name that subject was?
Want to search for it in the archive.
Or can i find it somewhere else in the internet?
Thanks, if someone can help me.
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Who knows where this funding roulette wheel will stop.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Amtrak’s rocking
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Maybe he should get in that tank of his and do something about it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Dukakis
So you think that his concern is totally unjustified and there is no need for Bush to bother to fill the vacancies on the Amtrak Board?
It's gotta be ...
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It looks like that utopia they were building in the Pac NW ran into some budgetary constraints.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Cascades
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Good, anything to make the general Amtrak travel experiance appealing.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Station
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Hmmm, could the MTA be next?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Chicago
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Well thanks to Baby Bush everything is at risk these days and needs money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Public
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Shame it couldn't be put to some sort of transit use.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Two
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Its about time Congress got rid of yet another hobble on the rail industry.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09082003.shtml#Congress
Why not put all the links on one page in one post, with associated headlines above each link, and simply call the post “Nationalcorridors.org update for such-and-such date”? You will save quite a bit of bandwidth and become more popular.
"Trains, Unions and Derailments" or something of the kind.
This is a DISCUSSION BOARD. People are not here to discuss this weeks Destination Freedom, they are here to discuss specific topics. People see the news items they are interested in, read it and then REPLY in that same thread to, oh I don't know, START A DISCUSSION.
If you use any other browser, the site won't load the entire page, so you get "forced" to use Bill's Browser.
So the last time would have been 1965.
The BMT had trains that skipped stations where other expresses stopped at the same platform. It was a means of operating (for example) Culver Expresses on the 5th Avenue L. Also, as another example, Brighton Expresses didn't stop at Canal southbound in rush hour in BMT days. But these were not calld "super express," which was the question.
Yep, and I'll go a step further. To use the existing infrastructure in new ways is what we're probably going to see done in future years. Cheaper than new construction. And if you think about the total population on the Coney Island to Sheepshead Bay section, it doesn't seem that farfetched to envision special express runs serving it. Let's use a ballpark figure of 100K population. I'm sure an NX-type service is viable. Maybe it wasn't publicised enough; or operated with insufficient priority.
When I was driving home from college, right before a holiday, and it was getting late, I put the pedal to the metal, and my car became a "Super Express" on I-81, southbound, making no stops for nobody :)
I know nothing about throwing people from cars at 70mph. ;)
Now that I think of it, my last post wasn't quite correct. I do recall some arrows on the Local-Exp signs.
This was the name for the regular 3 Avenue Express. It ran express in Manhattan and local in The Bronx. The 3 Avenue Thru-Express ran express in both Manhattan and The Bronx.
It is odd that they chose to call it a local-express since that name could just have easily been applied to the 2nd,6th and 9th Avenue Expresses all of which ran express in Manhattan and local in The Bronx.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
On this service information is the Culver missing!?
The term "super-express" has been also used to describe the 1964-1965 World's Fair express service and the post-Chrystie Street NX service.
There was reference to a "super-express" service to the World's Fair but TA maps and advitsements almosts always refered to it as the "World's Fair Special" or the "Subway Special to the World's Fair." There was even a jingle "Take the subway special to the World's Fair." There were publicity photos showing trains signed up as "World's Fair", "Special", Exp-Lcl or Lcl-Exp.
In practice the trains never carried the "Special" sign but used the more utiltarian "Exp-Lcl" or "Lcl-Exp".
The NX was also refered to as a "super-express" service but again the TA literature does not reflect this. The only map to show the NX service was the one issued in November 1967. The front of the map refers to it only as the "NX". The strip map on the reverse side lists it as "NX Broadway Express" and this was how trains were signed simply "NX Broadway Express". Other trains simply carried "N Broadway Express" and had a blue medallion hung on the front of the train with "NX" in white letters.
There was reference to a "super-express" service to the World's Fair but TA maps and advitsements almosts always refered to it as the "World's Fair Special" or the "Subway Special to the World's Fair." There was even a jingle "Take the subway special to the World's Fair." There were publicity photos showing trains signed up as "World's Fair", "Special", Exp-Lcl or Lcl-Exp.
In practice the trains never carried the "Special" sign but used the more utiltarian "Exp-Lcl" or "Lcl-Exp".
The NX was also refered to as a "super-express" service but again the TA literature does not reflect this. The only map to show the NX service was the one issued in November 1967. The front of the map refers to it only as the "NX". The strip map on the reverse side lists it as "NX Broadway Express" and this was how trains were signed simply "NX Broadway Express". Other trains simply carried "N Broadway Express" and had a blue medallion hung on the front of the train with "NX" in white letters.
So there. =p
Now how the h*ll I managed to take it so crooked is beyond me...
-Stef
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, but the 4 train runs (ran?) local in Manhattan overnight.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
2. If it did say 149 St, the sign would still be wrong because the location of this shot is definately north of 149th St.
3. Not that it is an error, the "6" sign look differently than it usually does. I thought it was because the train was a R142, but it is definately a R142A.
1 PELHAM BAY PARK TO 177ST PARKCHESTER
2 BROOKLYN BRIDGE TO WOODLAWN ROAD (VIA 4 LINE NORHT OF 125ST.)
SHUTTLE BUS SERVICE BETWEEN 177ST. PARKCHESTER AND 138ST. GRAND CONCOURSE (4 LINE) .
This was due to swithwork at Hunts Point and trackwork at Longwood
But the Joe Torre theory was good.
wayne
That goes for the R-32GE's, the R-33's, the R-42's, the works -- everything except the R-40, which looks horrid inside (and outside, but at least outside it's daring).
wayne
RD335 (formerly R-15 5985)
RD346 (formerly R-21 7276)
||
R-77 902 (GE SL50 50T Diesel)
R-120 OL907 (Republic Locomotive Works SL50 50T Diesel-Electric)
Since it was not listed, lots of riders expected to be able to catch the #7 to Flushing at 74 Street; they all had to ride back to Woodside and reverse directions. Many would have made other plans to transfer elsewhere had they known about the disruption.
Even worse, the conductor on the Flushing-bound train at Junction Boulevard at around 5:45pm (car #2023) opened the doors to the wrong (Flushing-bound) platform, where the stairs had been taped off. I knocked on the window opposite his cab to get his attention, and he got mad at me for knocking on the window! Instead of an easy across-the-platform change, mobs had to descend the two staircases, breaking the tapes. And worse yet, several riders who did not understand English and were unaware of the service disruption, then waited on the Flushing-bound platform for a local. And with the tapes now broken, what would stop later riders entering at Junction Boulevard from using the Flushing-bound platform?
What a mess, and why wasn't this posted? Surely it wasn't a spur-of-the-moment project, what with all the equipment and crew present.
-Stef
Isn't the disciplinary system supposed to work like this? The CR did something wrong, and he's going to be punished for it. Why is this a bad thing?
I sent the exact same message to MTA.INFO, and expect a response within two weeks.
Must of been a "ghost" GO. I would wonder how long this lasted.
FYI: I listed Subtalk as a website rather than a discussion group. The reason is that a discussion group (like yahoo or MSN groups) have some notion of exclusivity rather than a website that is open to all.
**********************************************************************
Greetings to all of my friends and readers.
A few of years ago we decided to do a survey of you the readers. It was
pretty unscientific and simple. The response was very good. I decided to do
another, this time a little more scientific with the approach. While I had
a great response, much of the survey was lost in the great computer melt
down I experienced.
So now being that I am home a little more often, I have decided to make
another attempt at a survey. As if my life isn't complicated enough, I feel
it is time to make it a little more nuts. All you have to do is answer the
following questions below and send it back to me. I ask that you only
answer the questions asked and please refrain from adding any comments or
death threats. You can do those under a separate post.
Your information and answers will not be sold to anybody (unless they offer
me a tremendous sum of money that would allow me to retire now) and you'll
receive no spam as a result of this survey. And for the record, I do not
solicit anything from my subscribers like money for a subscription and
likely never will (although I keep being told that I should). So humor me
by filling out the survey and mailing it on back. You may delete this top
portion upon returning it to me, just keep the bottom half of this post and
send it back.
At some point I will process all of the information and post the results,
just like I did with the first survey and intended to do with the second
survey until the files were destroyed.
Even if you receive Hot Times on the High Iron via a forward from friends
or in a printed out hard copy form, feel free to answer the questions and
return the survey directly to me. For hard copy readers, you may give the
answers to the one printing it out for you and have them send me your
responses electronically. Do not worry about putting them out. After all,
don't they bring it over for you to read in the first place? Here is your
chance to get even with them.
Thanks in advance for your time, input and of course, for your subscribing
to Hot Times on the High Iron.
Tuch
____________________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
Hot Times on the High Iron Reader Survey 2003
Personal info (because we are nosy and just love to delve into
demographics).
1) Name:
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3) Age:
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5) Marital Status:
Now all the other stuff.
6) Are you a railroader now or ever: (If no to question 6 skip to
question 7. If yes continue.)
6A) Which railroad(s) when, where and in what capacity:
6B) How many times have you been married, divorced and thrown out?
6C) Are you now or have you ever been in railroad management, with whom, when, where and in what capacity:
6D) If yes to question 6C, are you in management with Canadian National and if so do you serve in a capacity that could have me disciplined for writing anything detrimental about the company?
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7) How do you receive Hot Times on the High Iron; direct mail, via a web site, through a discussion list or forward from a friend or enemy?
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10) Do you post Hot Times on the High Iron to any websites? If no skip to question 11.
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friends, how many of them have threatened you with death or disfigurement demanding that you cease doing so?
13) Do you forward it via hard copy to anybody? If no skip to question 14.
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Thank you for taking the time to fill out this survey. While I cannot offer any neat gifts for taking part, I can tell you that this survey will give me a good cross reference of my readership. And it will just make me feel good knowing that I can order you all around so easily. I now have you under my control!!
--- Joseph Santucci
--- thetuch7@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
[I hope I don't name them all in this thread, but you must have some picks...]
1) Batteries... $1... Batteries...
2) Hello. I'm selling candy bars for my basketball team. I currently have Snickers and Peanut M&Ms. They're $1.
3) All the "Join The Lord" Missionaries.
4) The people that walk around and hand out pens asking you to support the blind (or is it the deaf?) -- then take the pens away from you if you don't give them $1.
All other vendors I find pointless and annowing.
PS: Do swiper guys count as on-Subway vendors?
Not funny. :P
Simpsons reference...right here, get your already worn out Simpsons reference, right here, only $1
Bill "Newkirk"
Classy and Personable!! : )
He is a riot.
"Ladies and gentlemen, your dontations are greatly appreciated"
And the proceeds to play the Godfather theme on his accordian. I've also heard him play a Beatles song, perhaps it's "Yesterday", but I don't really remember.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ever think they could make more sales if they stocked in CHOCOLATE M&M's??
People can be ALLERGIC to peanut... which is usually ALL they have when I've seen 'em.
Selling for Basketball Uniforms... how about a registration form so we can
SEE the games which our uniforms appear in.
Of course usually its for their own benefits, NOT for the basketball team as they claim, lack of adequate funding maybe is the reason they don't get proper "uniforms" 8-).
Reminds me of the fraud who walks around with half of his body paralyzed. Back in 1998, he was plying his game, telling customers that he suffered a stroke and is waiting for a fair hearing and his money, but needs something to tide him over. Guess what Flatbush41? I saw the same con artist on the Q diamond over the bridge LAST APRIL, doing the same trick he did 4 years before.
BTW: The con artist was seen by one of his ex-workers who I presume he lost his job. The ex-worker told the con-artist to get off drugs, man it was embarrassing for him to hear that on the #4 at grand Central.
I don't think I heard of him before. There was also aonther guy who used to give out pamphlets saying that he was disabled and some other nonsense. He hardly talked & he was short and bald he would be on the Q local in the reverse peak towards Manhattan sometimes.
Make some oat meal. Let it cool. Spread it all over your face. Dry it with a hair dryer. Remarkably realistic "disfigurement!"
Sorry if you though I was gulliable, like I said some are real. The muslim man we see everyday on the Q, he sleeps in a station I will not name on this board only thing I can say he does need some help. Haven't seen his wife, she might be in jail.
The Spanish kid with his daughter in a baby carriage last year, he was legit too. I hope in a positive way that he is taking care of himself because it's good thing that we don't see him anymore. Hopefully he has a job and a home.
Panhandling with a child is an excellent idea - "Please, my baby needs food!" Dogs and cats are even better.
BTW, your outmeal got me thinking about the "burnt" guy I saw on the 1 train. I didn't want to look at him long enough to figure out if he was legit or not, and I think that could be the idea (if he is a scam artist). He was so horrendous looking that most people glanced up and looked to the floor - possibly the effect he was hoping for (of course I don't know if it was legit or not, he sure looked severely burned and deformed).
My friend and I are joining a fellow Branfordite, JohnS for the occasion.
I'm back on Wed. night.
-Stef
Both Seashore & Boston are great places for railfans !
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Is there some history to this?
Steve
I referred to my copy of The Trail of the Blue Comet. The PRR built from Toms River to Seaside Park, then north to Bay Head. The CNJ terminated passenger service on the NY&LB at Point Pleasant, but extended the railroad down to Bay Head to meet the PRR. This was around 1880.
All service from The NY&LB to Atlantic City, regardless of time frame, went via Whitings, Woodmansie, and Winslow Junction.
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
The connections will be through PATCO, with a transfer between light rail and PATCO at Broadway Camden and between PATCO and NJT AC line at Lindenwold, providing a three-seat fice from Trenton to AC.
Part one Click Here
Part two Click Here
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Example: On Labor Day and Memorial Day, the weekend service change poster read 12:01 AM Saturday to 5 AM Monday. However it should've read "...5AM TUESDAY" as Q trains were going throgh the Montague Rat-nel on those holidays (as well as the 4th of July).
BTW: The poster reads "until November 2003" but gives no specific date. You can see some posters at Canal St, Bridge platform.
Yeah, we can see them, but the people who use that station seem to not be able to see them :) It is always up to Kool-D to set them right...if they choose to listen to him.
But some people just don't believe me so that's what they get for waiting for a train. Amazing that I see people lean on pillars or a wall next to a sign that says "No Trains Running" and it's their line that is not running due to a G.O..
For that matter, there is also a GO that closes the north side of the Manhattan Bridge, one that closes everything near Stillwell except Tracks 1, 7 and 8, and one that had closed down the south side of the Manhattan Bridge for years.
Just because YOU don't think there is a G.O. for something, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.
As to Holidays, you actually explained it, but didn't notice. The Service Plan has Q service operating through the Montague Tubes on Saturdays and Sundays. Labor Day and Memorial Day saw a Sunday schedule being operated; July 4 was a Saturday schedule. Since the only schedule for the Q that existed had it operating through the Tubes, that's the way service ran. To run it over the Bridge those three days would have taken a G.O. with a supplement schedule - not worth the effort.
But my point on this matter is NYCT should not trick (I cannot say the word defraud because no money was lost by the customer) customers in thinking the Q line runs normal over the Bridge on major holidays.
The service notice reads as such and I interpreted it correctly. So if I read this poster on Labor Day then I would expect my Q train to show up at Canal St, Bridge platform. But any customer would be tricked into this since the Q train will show up on Tunnel platform instead.
Last weekends' G.O. had to 2 and 5 lines run express in the Bronx and they will bypass 174th st Manhattan bound. So, according to the poster, you double back at 149th st/GC to get back at 174th st, right? WRONG. Now you really know what is going on at 174th st because BOTH sides are closed by NYCT for renovation and they have no coordination in this poster.
Huh? it is being built as a 6 track station (the old one had 5) and with slightly longer platforms so 10-car trains will actually work (a 10-car train with PA-4's on each end would have been problematic in the old station).
There are really only a few HTML "tags" you will likely use while in SubTalk. Here are some examples - you could cut and paste them to a Notepad text document and save it on your desktop for easy reference until you have them memorized:
For all examples below, exchange a less-than symbol for [ and a greater-than symbol for ].
To add a link:
[a href="link URL here"]Text to appear as the link[/a]
Example:
This is my home page
To add a photo:
[img src="photo URL here" title="caption"]
Example:
To bold text:
[b]Text to be emboldened[/b]
Example:
This is bold
To italicize text:
[i]Text to be italicized[/i]
Example:
This is italics
[b]bold[/b]
[i]italic[/i]
[u]underline[/u]
*=use these <> instead of the brackets.
I too aksed a question similar ot yours a while back and I got help from a few Subtalkers then I went offline and did some research. It'll be amazing if you take time to do a search and learn interesting things on HTML 8-).
Washington St Ferries will be ending their passenger only ferry services as of September 20, 2003. The service, which was hounded by NIFoMTMDSWs (Not In Front of My Twenty Million Dollar Sea Wall) who claimed that the 45knot fast ferries passing through the narrow Rich Passage between the Kitsap Penninsula and Bainbridge Island on their way into Bremerton were eroding the beaches and seawalls that they had placed on the water. The also claimed that the ferries did irreversable damage to the fragile environment of Puget Sound. Oddly enough, they did not comment on the impact that their just as fast or faster, and in some cases larger powerboats have on the same environment. The final nail in the coffin wasn't just the NIFoMTMDSWs, but also the failure of a highway funding bill to pass last November, the expanding system is stuck with a limited amount of funding, of course the highways get the lion's share, with unSound Transit's Central Link coming in a close second. Since the POFFs were never very cost effective, and only seemed to attract negative press from the supporters of the Rich Passage NIMFoMTMDSWs, WSF finally gave up, and the final runs of the beleagured Snohomish and Chinook will occur this friday in the PM rush.
The only Fast ferry route to be left will be the Vashon-Seattle route using the Kalama and Skagit, among the two oldest passenger only fast ferries in the WSF fleet. I do not know what will become of the Snohomish and Chinook, the newest POFFs that WSF had most recently been running on the Seattle-Bremerton, and which attracted the Rich Passage NIFoMTMDSWs ire. Eventually even the Vashon-Seattle POFF run will end, replaced by a car ferry running between Seattle's Coleman Dock and Vashon, I'm assuming this would require the building of a new car dock, since there are 3 slips there now, of which two are in permanent use by the Bremerton and Bainbridge Island runs, with the 3rd kept in reserve for work to one of the other two, a third ferry line terminating there would require the building of another permanent dock. I'm not sure where the fleet for this supposed line will be coming from, since the WSF is basically gutting it's car ferry fleet, especially the smaller, older boats, which would work perfectly on such a route. Also peculuar is that Fauntleroy (the usual terminal on the mainland for boats coming from Southworth via Vashon) is about to almost get a perfect link into downtown, much faster than a Car ferry or even a POFF could do, in the form of the West Seattle arm of the Green Line monorail. It would only make sense to run the Green Line to the Ferry Terminal, thereby offering passengers coming from the southern Kitsap Penninsula and Vashon island a viable alternative to busses or worse, cars, from Fauntleroy to Seattle or the crowded Bremerton ferries to their north.
Also, as mentioned above, WSF will be gutting their fleet within the next 5 years. All the vessels of the Steel Electric class, along with the oddball ferries Rhodedendron and Hiyu will be retired (the Hiyu may or may not already be retired). Of the Steel Electric class, the currently mothballed Nisqually is due to be the first retired, as of June 2003, her sisters, the Illahee, Quinalt and Klickitat will no doubt follow her shortly. WSF claims the Steel-Electrics to be the oldest operating ferries in the world, the Illahee, built in 1927 is going on 75 years of operation, but with extensive rebuilds as soon ago as 1987, they're arguably among the best WSF has to offer, especially for moderate density routes. The Rhodedendron is the survivor of two ferries purchased from the Chesapeke Bay Authority, where it was named the Gov. Herbert R. O'Conner, just after they were put out of work by the Chesapeke Bay Bridge. Olympic, her sister ship, didn't last long, but Rhodedendron lived on on the lonely Pt Defiance-Talequah run between Tacoma and the southern tip of Vashon Island the last few years. The Hiyu is a much newer ferry, built in 1967 for WSF, however it was never large enough to work well for any of WSF's routes, it was intended for the Pt Defiance-Talequah run, but was overwhelmed, requiring the use of the Rhodedendron. These last few years it's been used for crew training and movie shoots, IIRC this was the ferry that Ashley Judd drove her car off of in Double Jeopardy. Also coming up for retirement in a few years will be the Super Class ferry Hyak, built in the late '60s, the first of the big ferries WSF ordered, it too was a victim of the failure of I-695 transportation funding.
Fortunately with the retiring of the older ships, some 6 in all, new ships, between 4 and 5 will be purchased. They'll be around 100 car capacity, probably somewhere in between the Issaquah and Evergreen State classes, along the lines of the John Noble class that Staten Island Ferry runs. However, with the death of the I-695 transit funding, who knows what will become of these ferries, they couldn't be canceled. If they were to be canceled, it could be just that WSF will have to make due with some 17 boats, far too few to maintain the current service.
http://www.evergreenfleet.com/index.html
Evergreen Fleet, probably the best site I've seen for info on WSF and their predecessor's fleets.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/
WSF's offical site, a transit operator with a useful website (compare to SEPTA.org!)
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/commuter_updates/vesselwatch/
WSF Vessel watch, a cool applet that shows the position of all in service ferries on their routes.
Well, that's all I've got... turns out it was all Seattle WSF news, anybody got any other Ferry news? Perhaps DRBA is up to something with the Cape May-Lewes Ferry? Or has SIFerry done anything remarkable recently?
Thanks for all the info about the NIFoMTMDSWs.
Since cars have been prohibited from the SI Ferry for the last two years, it will be interesting to see how the car deck is delivered on the new boats.
As for sensible, that's in the eye of the beholder. Within two hours of my house are three other car-carrying ferry lines, all of which operate over much deeper waters, and much farther away from land, than the SI Ferry. A sinking on any of them would probably be fatal to everyone aboard. A sinking in the middle of the Upper Bay would not be - in most places in the Bay, the ferry itself is taller than the water is deep, there are other boats within minutes to help out.
Keith: Outside of the main ship channel and some of the anchorages the harbor isn't that deep. If a ferry did sink the water would probably not come up to the upper deck. And besides all the big boats carry four 4 passenger lifeboats.
The last time that a ferry sank was on September 23, 1963 when the "Verrazzano" was blindslided by an inshore tanker.(Poling Bros.No8). She was holed below the waterline but two large ocean-going tugs of the Coast Guard literally lifted her up and took her the Staten Island Ferry Terminal where she sank in about 12 feet of water. Her main deck was still dry.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Funny that at 310 x 70 feet these ferries are actually smaller than the Issaquah class WSF runs, yet the Issaquah carries 1/3rd the passengers that the Molinari will carry (1200 vs 4400). It'd be nice if the Washington State Ferries didn't have to carry so many cars (130 vs 30, or 0), then they'd be able to squeeze in some more passengers. Perhaps if there was more of a usable transit system carrying passengers to and from both sides of the Sound fewer passengers would feel the need to drag their cars across the sound. I would love to see the Jumbo Mk-II class (460x90ft, 2500pax 216 cars) retrofitted to carry more passengers than cars, they could easily match the Barbieris (300x70ft, 6000pax, 0 cars) through the removal of the 2nd level auto deck and it's replacement with another passenger deck. Given that two of the Jumbo Mk IIs, the Tacoma and the Wennatche operate on the walk-on passenger-heavy Seattle-Bainbridge Island route, this would seem to make some sense, since on one side there is the adequate transit network of the Seattle Waterfront (read busses and your feet), and on the other side is a truely massive park and ride lot right by the ferry terminal and a pretty sparse bus system, this would seem to make some sense.
BTW have you ever been on BC Ferries (British Columbia)? They're a few notches above WSF in terms of on-board comfort and amenities... I've only been on the Tswassen (sp?) to Victoria route, so I'm not sure what the other ones are like.
Geez, in 1997, I thought BC Ferries was the cat's meow when it came to ferries...especially the "Spirit of British Columbia" and "Spirit of Vancouver Island". These are HUGE boats, I think they hold 470 autos on two decks...have on-board cafeteria, all-you-can-eat-buffet, television rooms, computer hookups, kiddie playground room. The ONLY thing I did not like about these two ships (built in the mid-1990's) was that they seemed to have quite a bit of engine vibration. But then, so do the Tacoma, Wenatchee, and Puyallup at WSF...when they open the throttle full and are running all four engines. I was told by a couple WSF crewmen that to conservie fuel and engines, they run only three of four engines at a time; they rotate one off-line each trip.
Did I mention how beautiful the rides are? Nearly everywhere houses and pine trees extend right down to the water, nothing like the industrial blight that crowds the east coast's riverbanks. In the south Mt. Rainier at 14,410 feet overlooks the Coleman Dock, Vashon Island and Tacoma operations, while Mt Baker at 10,778 feet watches over the northern operations on the Edmonds-Kingston, Whidbey Island and San Juan islands routes to Vancouver. The Olympic Mountains with Mount Olympus at 7965 feet are visible from nearly every route, and it is a unique experience to ride the Seattle routes away from the city to the much more peaceful islands offshore, just don't do it at rush hour.
I don't think I've ever ridden on the BC Ferry fleet, they have a very nice looking fleet, and they too just retired their Fast Ferries, Pacificat Explorer, Pacificat Discovery, and Pacificat Voyager to carry on that service. It sounds like the Pacificat enterprise was something of a failure like the Acela Express, poorly concieved, poorly built, and poorly managed. Still I have to admit that 34 knots with 250 cars and 1000 passengers (which only works out to 4 passengers per car, god forbid somebody should want to walk on, or a whole load of 250 minivans loaded with 7 people comes aboard!) is impressive. But with 33,000hp needed to get the ferry to that speed, apparantly the fuel consumption was so high that they were completely inefficient.
The only ferry I ever rode to Vancouver Island was the B.C. Steamship Company's Victoria Island Princess and Princess Marguerite III, just before that line was abandoned. The Victoria Island Princess was once part of the BC Ferries fleet, and the B.C. Steamship Company was actually a government entity, so I guess that's close. The Princess Marguerite III was an old steam ferry which carried both passengers and cars, like it's newest companion. It was a beautiful 4 hour ride up Puget Sound into the Strait of Juan de Fuca. I remember that both ferries were very nicely outfitted, with the Princess Marguerite III having extensive wood trim and such. I do not know what happened to the Princess Marguerite III after the line shut down in 1988, but I know the Victoria Island Princess moved to China, where it operates up and down the coast.
Hopefully when I move back out there sometime I'll get a better chance to ride the ferries.
And yes, the views are quite spectacular. The Pacific Northwest really is a beautiful region - I especially love Vancouver and BC in general.
Mentioning that WSF Vessel Watch...I've noticed that the MV Walla Walla has nOT shown up on it for about six months now. When I was up in Washington this past July, I could not find her anywhere -- not in Eagle Harbor, not on Seattle-Bainbraidge/Bremerton, not on Edmonds-Kingston, or Mukilteo-Clinton -- nor on Lake Union or Lake Washington. Any ideas where she disappeared to? Not too easy to hide a 440-foot ferryboat....
Actually the ONLY vessels at Eagle Harbor were the MV Hiyu and the MV Olympic (across from WSF) and the MV Wenatchee that I was riding on.
Unfortunately I do not know where the Walla-Walla is, if I lived out there you can bet that I'd go hunt for it, however airline tickets from Philadelphia to Seattle are pretty expensive. It could be hiding down in the old Todd Shipyards at the Duamish river mouth, things are so big down there that it could be in between two container ships or something. I do know that the Klahowya and Tillikum just came back from a refit, so perhaps they're now giving the Walla-Walla a similar refit. I think while I was out there in the summer of 2001 the Hyak was nowhere to be found, it too was out for a refit.
My cousin out there has told me that there are times on the weekends during winter as many as 6 or 7 ships will be there. I guess that's kind of abnormal though.
Thanks to US Airways' domination of Philadelphia. Take Amtrak & Baltimore Light Rail to BWI, or Septa/NJTransit/monorail to EWR, and you should be able to get much cheaper fares. Plus an interesting train ride to boot.
WSF won't tell where it is -- they did reply to an e-mail I sent, saying it is "out for overhaul" but that is all they would say. Someone I know in Portland, Oregon, of all places said he thought he saw a rather large white and green ferry on the Columbia about four months ago -- soperhaps it had to go down that way for the job.
Its always good to hear of other transit systems even if its not a rail one. I post news of the Staten Island Ferry from time to time since its the only proper way to vist Staten Island.
Thanks for the information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
)
New Yorkers tend to ride the subway because they must.
Then there are people like Howard Fein and his son, Robert. They ride the subway for fun.
Rather than go through the hassle of registering on the TIMES website, I just called my wife and told her to buy a copy- and scrounge whatever copies she could through the neighbors. Unfortunately, my co-workers are strictly NEWS and POST readers.
I've had letters printed in NEWSDAY and the NEWS, but to make the TIMES- most people hope they get their obituaries in it. See, there IS merit to our hobby!
I remember when I met you on BusTalk a long time ago, we started talking about how College Point had changed, and you mentioned that you've lived in Mitchell Gardens for a long time, so you've seen the changes first hand. So I knew you lived in my neighborhood (because I live in Linden Towers.)
And now that I saw that NY Times article, and it mentioned that you have a 7 year old son named Robert who LOVES transportation, it suddenly hit me that there was a kid at the P.A.L. program at PS214Q named Robert Fein who once came to school in an outfit adorned with clipped together Metro Cards, and a cap with the QSC logo on it. His mother was a teacher there....she worked there, I worked there!! I know her!! I think her name was Lisa Kest-Fein. I was an instepper at P.A.L. for two years!!
OMFG I KNOW YOUR WIFE AND SON!!! And I've seen you pick Robert up from P.A.L. occasionally!!
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M FIRST REALIZING THIS NOW!!!!!!
AAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
But what did you mean about the discussion of College Point being boring? (Aside from the obvious, of course.)
Were you or your son pictured in the article? I try to get copies
of folks wearing my Subway Shirts when they appear in the press.
I'm happy to buy the article and picture from the NY Times if I have
to, but not unless you are pictured!
Thanks,
Subway grrl
It's much nicer to be mentioned while you're alive for something you like to. Congrats!!!!
Mark
p.s.--then again, by the forecast, looks like my area could take the brunt.....we'll see.
Mark
Sorry for the confusion,
Mark
YES!!! Thank you! It would open up a new market for passengers, while possibly relieving congestion on the main line(send some ronkonkoma and montauk trains down it). I say double track it and re-open all the old stations, especially bethpage JCT. This would definately help big time!
Looks like she'll pass by about 90 miles or so.
I live in FAR western Maryland and work in a city called Cumberland.
Where the 2:00 am dot is for Sept. 19th is right on top of Cumberland...
Uh Oh, due to the mountains, we are very prone to severe flooding..
Thank GOD I'm on the "up side" of my street but I pity the folks across the street from me, they're on the "low side" with a stream running through their back yards...
I'm not generally a religious fellow, but your prayers are certainly welcome---WMATAMOAH, Ballston1C, NewLookTerrapin,John, you all know me and you know where I live......Think of me as you sleep Thursday Night, although, it looks as though you guys will get hit hard during the day on Thursday...my prayers are with you.....
You guys are my friends, my extended family...
Thanks,
Mark
In the case of this storm I am optimistic that it well not be that big of a deal for me.
John
It seems that the next 24-48 hours will be really interesting to see what path she takes. I'm expecting our Direct TV satellite dish to turn into a frisbee and end up on the roof of Ballston Commons. I'm pulling in the patio furniture tonight to get all that out of the way. Pam told me that our apartment was selling tickets to the Orioles game on Thursday night and I told her those things better be free if they expect anyone to go to the game that night!
Party at Ballstons house---
Game of the day....
DishTV Frisbee!!
Oooooo, I hope I win!!
Thanks for the kind thoughts everybody,
Mark
One things for sure, we're in this thing together--
John, you're definately the most vulnerable of the bunch, take care my friend...
I missed Floyd passing by in '99 (I was out at Rehoboth Beach for the week and, quite surprisingly, it was absolutely no big deal there). Friends who were in town told me they had to close my namesake station for a good part of the day because so much water got into the bottoms of the street escalators they couldn't operate. (For those of you who don't know, the street escalators at Dupont are among the longest in the system. It would be extremely difficult for many people to climb them, especially if they're wet.)
Big win for me from a parenting perspective. An expensive, non-sensical Girl Scout trip to Hershey PA was cancelled. And it looks like the girls soccer games will go on over the weekend.
We'll still get the rain. I called the Mayor's new 311 system to report an obstructed sewer line. Last big rain the water was backin off from the street, and with a little motivation, I took a look and found stagnant water backed up in the storm drain at the bottom of the block. The sewer-answerer said that means its partially clogged. Let's see if they clean it out.
I always thought it odd, though, since P Street is downgrading towards the Rock Creek gorge at this point, and it's quite a ways down to Rock Creek and the Parkway from where the P Street bridge crosses it at 23rd. One would think the water would simply run down the hill alongside the roadways to the creek. This would be an interesting engineering challenge were they to ever do anything with the idea of running the Yellow line through Logan and Dupont under P to Georgetown.
Brooklyn, baby. The District is a little too scary for me.
(In mid-2001 something worked and now it drains quickly, with only extremely heavy downpours causing a lake, but usually it's gone within 5 minutes after the rain stops.)
For a real amazing situation, you have to look at Oklahoma where I lived for a few years in the late 1970s. They get less rain, but it all falls on just a few days, usually accompied by a tornado. Our house was a corner lot at the intersection of streets coming downhill from four directions. Fortunately, it was up on a good size rise from the street. The storm sewers were massive.
During one fierce storm, we were caught in a flood and our car stalled out a few blocks from home. My mother asked me to run home and get the other car. I was 17 at the time. I was afraid I'd run into a tornado -- it was coming down so hard I couldn't see, and kept running into things -- until I reached the intersection and was in water over my head! I was able to swim to the house.
The rain let up, and suddenly a see this huge lake in front of our house start to move in a circle. In a minute it was gone, just like flushing a toilet.
Anyway, hope we don't get a storm like that here. Not good for the subway.
Awwww, c'mon. In reality, the quality of life in the District is not terribly different from anywhere in NYC, or any other major US city. (In fact, I would say that these days it's probably better than many places.) There were plenty of places I avoided like the plague when I lived in NYC, which I see from the news are pretty much as scary today as they were 30 years ago when I moved into NYC. The part of town I'm in here is rather like the West Village, Chelsea or SoHo, and there is tremendous, continuing improvment (read: gentrification) going on all around the city that has dramatically reduced the size of "unsavory" areas.
"Violent" crime may get most of the attention in the media, but except for a small number of high profile events, it is typically limited to the entrenched "bad areas" of town. And, put into perspective vis a vis the NYC area, crime on mass transit down here rarely involves violence. AFAIK, there haven't been any cases yet of loonies shooting up crowded trains or stabbing or 12-9ing passengers on platforms. I'm not saying that violent crime doesn't occur on Metro property, but it's pretty much the low-grade stuff like pickpocketing or vandalizing/stealing cars parked at outlying station lots. When I lived in Stamford, my car got broken into six times when it was parked in the station lot, and that always occurred during the daytime hours. A so-called "better" suburban area, with nowhere near the number of "scary" criminal-type people.
So, don't be afraid of the District. Our fair city will certainly welcome you and your valuable tourism dollars to come railfan Metro any time.
There is nowhere I've gone in the country since I moved here where I haven't been chided one way or another for being so unfortunate to have to live here. I get that almost as much as "how could you have ever wanted to leave San Francisco?" I don't have to live here. I choose to live here, and I'm quite happy. In fact, I'm happier living here than I was anywhere else.
I always find it amusing how people who've never been to SF or NYC or Boston or DC always consider the other 3 places to be "so much better" than DC. I am still rather fond of SF and NYC from having lived there for so many years, but not infatuated with either place. I enjoy visiting them when I do. Would I want to live in either place again? Perhaps, given the right circumstances, but I don't have any burning desires to do so. Boston? I absolutely despise the place because the shallowness and closed-mindedness of most of the people I encountered there ruined my experience of the otherwise beautiful city.
I guess the point is that one doesn't really know a place until they live there. I, too, used to think unkindly about DC. I was only supposed to be here for a one-year project, and used to lament how that would probably be pure misery. 12 years later, I think very differently about the place, and now have no desire to even muse living elsewhere.
And then there was Marion Barry...that speaks for itself, unfortunately.
But I had fun in DC. I did some coursework at Georgetown one summer (I know that Georgetown is not really typical DC, and I did try to get around to other parts of the city). I was stationed at Anacostia Naval Station working for the government on a medical assignment, but our group was told not to venture off the base unless escorted (this was in 1999-2000).
Marion Barry was the biggest reason that nothing really was done to benefit the city's eastern areas, especially east of the Anacostia. His powerbase being there meant he had to ensure it was impervious to eroding. His approach was to mete out only enough good will to his own corps of influential individuals to keep them faithfully preaching "better times will come someday." If you were one of his faitful, you stood a chance at getting some of the largesse; otherwise, you were doomed to rot in the squalor.
Since he's been out of office, there is actually a lot of positive change happening over there. Things you can actually see, like streets being cleaned up and rebuilt. Dilapidated housing projects being renovated or replaced with liveable units (and not gentrification). New businesses appearing. School's being renovated and properly equipped yielding improved attendance and test scores. Things are still far from being on par with Northwest west of 16th Street, but it's dramatically improved from 8 years ago. You still wouldn't want to mosey around where you were stationed on your own, but I think in a few more years, that will improve, especially if they get that light rail project running.
Flooded underpasses can happen in many places. There are a couple of spots here in Medford, where the roads dip low under LIRR bridges, that are quite flood-prone.
I'll tell ya what---I'll drop ice colled bottles of Yuengling's in the North Branch of the Potomac up here, you get 'em as they float down...drinks are on me :)
Mark
Good idea about the bbq. When Gloria breezed through Stamford in '85, I had friends calling me all morning telling me to evac because I was only 1/4 mile from LI Sound in the low-lying south end of town. In the end, I didn't get flooded or lose power. By the time the storm had passed around noon, most of my friends who lived well inland were coming down with food because *they* had lost power and/or flooded. We had one heck of a humongous bbq feast the rest of that day.
I'm glad we did our normal shopping on Sunday and stocked up on the things we normally do, so we're set for anything. I'm going to get some ice packs frozen just to be on the safe side in case I need to take things out of the freezer and put them in a cooler.
That BBQ sounds like it was a lot of fun. Its nice that people take care of one another during these things.
Fabian will retire with no question ask. I doubt it will eventually do
and I just got a replacement name for Fabian that is.
Fred as in "Sea Beach Fred" or Frederick or Frank
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/pdf/hurricane_isabel.pdf
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/117613p-106051c.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a seat - please!
Subway scrap is a hit via Internet sale site
By PETE DONOHUE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Side roll sign: $300
IKEA, look out: The Transit Authority is pushing its own line of not-so-new home decorations.
Are you in the market for a boxy, 10-foot, 200-pound wooden bench retired from the Lexington Ave. line?
It's yours for $200 - "graffiti inlay and weather-beaten look provided free of charge!"
"The perfect addition for any restaurant, backyard, bar or patio, these benches faithfully served passengers on the No. 4, 5 & 6 subway lines for more than a decade - and now can serve your guests!" reads the Web site hawking the subway collectibles.
Transit buffs with small apartments might opt instead for a subway sign - "express" or "local" for $25 to $30 - or an overhead grab hold, a bargain at $15.
"Normally, this material would be put in scrap containers and sold for scrap material," said Mike Zacchea of the TA's asset recovery bureau.
Instead, it has pulled in $35,000 since March, he said.
The sales program on the TA Memorabilia & Collectibles Web site began based on the outpouring of interest following the news that the world-famous Redbird trains had hit the end of the line.
A test Web site advertisement during the summer of 2002 got 100 hits in four hours, Zacchea said.
The TA began taking parts off the Redbirds and stockpiling them for sale.
The red trains, built in the late 1950s and early 1960s, have rusted beyond repair and are being retired. More than 1,000 have been dumped into the Atlantic Ocean to form artificial reefs.
The Internet sales program, launched in March, features regular monthly bargains on outdated TA material and a program "designed especially for buyers interested in acquiring a little bit of [Transit Authority] history."
It's not just diehard subway buffs who keep the mail-order business booming.
"The most interesting thing about this project is the diversity of people that buy," Zacchea said.
"The customers range from the NYU professor whose son has an interest in trains all the way to an amusement park entrepreneur that has a New York theme to his miniature golf courses in Lake George and Bangkok," he said.
Originally published on September 15, 2003
Information from a friend who lives on Comm Ave
AEM7
Mark
[This is an older story, but with the same situation you described]
A Hillsborough County Sheriff's deputy collided with the TECO Line trolley near Channelside on Thursday afternoon.
Ed Crawford with TECO Line was riding the trolley when the accident happened. Coincidentally, Crawford was on the trolley with several other TECO Line employees to determine why the trolleys have been involved in a string of accidents in the last several months.
"I watched the signal change, saw the operator had the right of way, that the no left-turn signal for cars was illuminated, and this person turned in front of the street car operator, despite the no-turn signal," said Crawford.
TECO Line says this is the seventh accident since October of 2002. In each one, the driver of the car was at fault, not the trolley operator.
The sheriff's deputy involved in Thursday’s crash was cited. There were no injuries reported to the sheriff's deputy, the streetcar conductor or any trolley passengers.
Ian, do you know about this site?
http://www.davidpinero.com/train/
about mass-transet(getting mass transit I mean) in the region, there should be a link somewhere in there for a Yahoo! group too. He seems to catch all the newspaper stories about that and high-speed rail.
Supply and demand -- maybe there is a greater perceived demand for the "Express" sign....
What kind of transit stuff did you sift through 20 years ago???
IF ONLY we had THAT gig offering today.
If only that were now...
What do ya say? :)
I have a funny feeling Foodtalk is going rear its head again...
AEM7
> AEM7
Not in detail. In general, though, I assume the land was considered more valuable for the Chicago Stock Exchange's new headquarters than for a rail station topped with an undistinguished 1903-vintage office building. Unlike similar redevelopments at North Western and Union Stations, where the new buildings went up on station air rights, in the case of LaSalle Street the rail facilities were simply cut back by a block, with the new building on the site of the former headhouse accommodating rail passengers only to the extent of providing passageways to the station through the building.
For some photos of the old station, see:
http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/VRP%20LaSalle%20Street%20Station.htm
http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/VD%20-%20LaSalle%20Street%20Station.htm
Alan Follett
and one other (I think that the one in the photo is one of IRM's, anyway!). Both of the neon signs have been restored to operation by IRM and put on display in their lit state.
Frank Hicks
DTrain22 mentioned that 103, 110, 116, and 125 weren't local stops, but I wasn't quite sure which line these were on. I checked the most up to date download on the MTA web site, and can't see what I have done wrong.
7 in Queens still goes underneath R/E/V, this is deliberate, even though it is upside down. R/E/V are quite complicated in this area, and putting the 7 on top might make what is happening harder to see. A general rule for a diagrammatic map is "Never hide a line that is changing direction"
Now the controversial bit.
Several of you quite rightly pointed out that this diagrammatic map does not show route and stopping pattern information. [In fact, the London Underground does not show this information either.] I have thought long and hard about how this information might be shown without making the map cluttered. The method I have used will not be to everyone's taste, but it is now on the map. You will need to read the key to see how I have done it, but there is a certain logic there.
I know I have called the E and F local in Queens, but technically this is correct and consistent with the style of the map. The E train calls at every station that is shown on its line (Ditto 4 and 5 in Brooklyn). In a future version, I will separate off the E/F from R/V so that it is clearer which lines have which stops.
The map is now designed to be printed on A4 paper, cut out and folded into 4. Off peak services would go on the back of this map. Watch this space.
Bear in mind that this is still a rough draft, I intend to make many changes when I get a couple of weeks to myself. Also, apologies for clarity. The original bitmapped file is 1.7MB, and prints out crystal clear. Loss of detail is due to file compression.
Thanks in advance for comments. I would be interested to know whether adding the stopping information is (1) comprehensible without (2) spoiling the simplicity of the original map, and (3) whether this map would now be usable to navigate New York.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWAYv2.pdf
I really love it. Could you post the bitmapped file too? Those of us on broadband would probably enjoy downloading and printing the even better version.
A note about the map, you seem to have service running into Stillwell Av Terminal. Right now only the (W) uses that station. And there are other associated problems down there that I think are wrong. Look at the current MTA Subway Map and tell me if you see what I am talking about.
The zipped BMP would do it for non-broadband.
A BMP would be horrid for this sort of thing. Use a PNG; lossless and small.
If I had time, I would convert this to high resolution, as for my other maps. For example, my fantasy map is edited at 72dpi on the screen, but then has to be shrunk to 1200 dpi to fit on A4 paper. This resolution means that I can print at A1 size without obvious loss of detail.
Sorry for not doing vector graphics, but I prefer to work with what I feel most comfortable is. With a bitmap, I know where every single pixel is on the map, and if its in the wrong place, I can put it in the right place.
Everyone has their own preferences, I guess...
The subway map I did is almost 100% vector. The only bitmap I have on it is the TransferPoint logo.
It can be got through the TransferPoint Info page. It's a bit dated, though, and it uses non-standard paper sizes: 45×42.4 inches, and 38.79×41.53 inches, 436K, but it includes strip maps on page 2!
Thanks for mentioning the Coney island reconstruction. In the best London tradition, maintenance work is not included on the map. This version is really intended for when everything down there gets fixed. I think MTA would have to employ me if I were to do this full time :-)
I am willing to host the big file on my website. Let me know.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
>I will separate off the E/F from R/V so that it is clearer which lines have which stops.
I think if you draw it like the tube part between Finchley Road and
Wembley Park it's clearer.
The area around DeKalb is very clear in opposite to a lot of other maps.
I'm only thinking about what your map's going look like in Lower Manhattan
after the Bridge is fully open.
Over all you've done a good job.
DeKalb is probably the most geographically distorted area on the map. Look at where I had to put Hoyt-Schermerhorn. If I can get away with that , I can get away with anything!
Thank you *very much* for doing this. I finally have a pocket-sized subway map!
Congratulations
See:
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/history/map.asp
Either that or they're the same person. I wonder when he moved to Brooklyn.
Fine job Max with the map. It is fairly correct geographically, though Mr. Beck's map wasn't particularly meant to be that way. Good stuff.
If possible though, you should try to move the Astoria Line a little further to the left. It's a little too far from the river.
Moot anyway, because you fixed it! [I meant the Broadway Line, BTW. They are "local" stops, but there is no express service between 96 and 137 Street.
Yeah, but you still have the 7 line crossing the E/F/R/V system-north (to the right as depicted on the map) of 36th Street
Thanks a lot for the effort. Now I need to find someone with access to a colour laser printer.
every-train-that-goes-along-here-calls-here
and
some-trains-skip-this-stop-so-watch-out (very useful for tourists who are used to all-stations metros).
No need for a laser printer. Any inkjet will on glossy paper will give you better quality. If only they could solve the ink-running problem. If you can't get near a good printer, let me know.
After 34 St, going downtown, the next stop would be West 4 St.
There will be plunty of Indian Summer, so the trip will be re-scheduled.
News Footage of the Brand New Métro Extension
On the above link, click on Lundi (Monday). The Métro opening is the top story.
The second story relates to a job action by the STIB Drivers Union which temporarily interrupted the opening festivities, followed by a story of how others will cope with the elimination of the 74 bus route (which had taken the same route as the new subway line) and the shortening of the 56 trolley line. The fourth story is on the new contract to receive 46 new trolley cars which are to be built by Bombardier.
The newscast is in French. You might not be able to understand the language, but I'm quite sure you could understand the pictures.
til next time
U beat Cleo!
til next time
I doubt that it will be sold out since 9/27 & 9/28 are also the Jewish Holy Days of Rosh Hashannah.
Without getting into a religious discussion here, some of us observe the holiday on both days while some only observe the first day. Since many of the Jewish faith will be unable to make the trip, there will be some empty seats.
til next time
That ride gave me a sense of nostalgia; it reminded me of how the subway cars of many years past had no A/C.
The R33WF cars in the summer PALE in comparison to this car. I've never been on any hotter car ever, and I hope today was the first and last time I did.
Look out for 3706; it should be on the E, F or R. Hopefully they fixed the A/C on that car...
Hey, Mr. Greenberger rode 3880 in January '02 with a, um, lady friend.
Of course, there are always memorable incidents aboard the older stock (we're talking the R-6's here) when heat was on when it should not have been.
wayne
Spetember 15, 2004, expect to see this topic rehashed! =p
I have two questions about the current situation in Philadelphia. Could anyone knowledgeable about Philadelphia kindly answer them? First, why did new new fleet number start at 2320? Second, on a trip to Philadelphia about a month ago to look at the rehabbed Route 15, I noticed a lot of the newly installed or pehaps rehabbed track looked very amateurish, not smooth at all in many locations, especially at crossings with other trolley routes. Meanwhile, on Route 34, and also on the other subway-surface lines, the trackwork was very professional. Why was the route 15 trackwork of such poor quality? Is it perhaps becauses SEPTA wishes to use this line and its rough track as a testbed for new trolleys?
Mark
wayne
wayne
Nos Credete Quid Facemus Cognoscemus
wayne
When Chambers is renovated, it will take years...
wayne
Considering the amount of money the job will pay, I'd bet that any plumber could get over his squeamishness pretty fast ... not that squeamish people are likely to become plumbers in the first place :)
The Chambers Street station, now active, seems to be in a "Twilight Zone" between its former grandeur and busy-ness, and being completely derelict. Perhaps the renovation and rebuilding of Foley Square, which has already reached the mezzanine level at the northern, uptown end of the station, will one day encompass the entire station.
I've noticed that several recent nostalgia train fan trips have departed from the middle tracks of the Chambers Street station.
Thanks "thezar" for the great photos of Chambers. In all it's squalor, it still has an unbelieveable glow of elegance. One day hopefully it will be restored:
I quite agree. This is similar to your comment that you posted with your photos of the LIRR western Montauk Branch abandoned stations :
"Here they are, in all their pathetic glory."
Thanks for your answer about the track(s) the nostalgia trains start from.
"Don't lean on train doors, You may make an unforgettable exit"
It passed through 145th st when I saw it.
Frank Hicks
But they were: "smooth riding, fast, just generally good cars." I don't get it.
Like my 1984 Cutlass Sierra with 230 k miles on it. Ran great but the body fell apart, two of the electric windows didn't work, the driver's door couldn't open from the inside, and the air conditioner blew. The AC was the last straw, so I bought a 1991 Grand Prix with 107 k on it (I had bought the Cutlass for $1000 with 103 k) for $3000. That was August, 1999. It now has 207 k and runs great!
Frank Hicks
The ex-Cleveland Pullmans from the TTC and the Shaker Pullmans had the same bad corrosion problems. Its amazing what you can cover up with bondo!
Word to inspectors coming to look at candidates for museums - bring a magnet.
Have seen the underside of #27 that was in Minn, Shaker & Newark. Looked like she was going to hold up ... even after a number of years under a bag in Minn. ... she of St. Louis mgf.
For their age and heavy usage, I am glad they made it as far as they did. Took alot of effort on the part of the operators to ensure they stuck around.
SEPTA did rebuild some of the KC cars, but they replaced the TTC trucks with trucks slavaged from scrapped PTC KC cars and all-electrics.
Around here (Chicago), it's generally thought that St. Louis-built PCC's were superior to Pullmans in terms of structural strength and rust resistance. I don't know exactly why this is, but supposedly some of the framing members on Pullman cars were kind of thin. I've been told that some of these members have been beefed up during the rebuilding of Cleveland Pullman PCC #4223 at IRM. Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion; I've heard people from Boston (which was essentially all Pullman) claim the exact opposite, that St. Louis cars were more prone to rusting out!
In the end, it was mainly the Toronto service. The only PCC's I can think of that escaped Toronto without major structural problems were car 4000, which may have been retired before salt had been in use too many years, and the 4600's, which were torn apart and completely rebuilt less than a decade before retirement. Everything else - Pullman and St. Louis cars alike - just dissolved.
Frank Hicks
Um, no. There's no reason they should close a historical staircase because of your misfortune.
Male Voice: Stand clear of the closing doors please.
Ding-Dong
Female voice: "This is a 373rd Street-bound Y train. The next stop is Scrotum Road."
Male voice from The Bronx: "Get the f*ck out da door."
Ding-THIS
Ladies and Gentleman, for your safety, please do not operate any Arnines unless they have upgraded to SMEE.
Jimmy :)
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
"Mooooo-ooooooo-ooooooove!!!!"
Jimmy
A backwards chime eh CC. Amusing announcement.....
On the Boston Red Line, there is ONE car in the 01600 series that goes "bwieieing bwieieing" (sort of sounds like someone is jiggling the pitch modulation dial) instead of the usual "bing-bing"... I see it every now and again, it still hasn't been fixed.
AEM7
Male voice- Do you like longwood?
Female voice- I think that it's funny
Male voice- I don't think that you're going to laugh at this one..
Female- ??
Male voice - Stand clear of the dropping pants please.
*doorchimes*
Female voice - Now I don't have to be so robotic anymore..
Don't you think this has been asked before? Many times before? Listen, when anything is known for sure, I betcha SubTalk will be one of the FIRST TO KNOW!!!!! OK?
You will have to settle for 9306 the R33WF in the Museum.
1 10-car set of R36's restored to their 1964 condition along with a R33 WF.
Several R-36's should be sold to other railroads or transit authorities (San Franscisco MUNI, SEPTA, etc.) where they can be restored and run in service. They could be modified to single cars (by removing link bars and adding a motor-generator/battery set (even car) or a compressor (odd car)).
at least one ML pair saved
All R33 WF's in work service or preseved.
I've been thinking about these issues lately in regards to national agencies. If your going to toss away subway, commuter rail, light rail vehicles, sell them for DIRT CHEAP. I'm sure other agencies that aren't as well maintained and funded or start-ups could do well with some extra cars on their fleet. I could think of a couple cities who, if acquired commuter cars, would jump-start their operations. Even if they run them only on rush hour. What other vehicle has the life expectancy a rail car has? I guess i'm suggesting the same set-up the old Septa PCC cars had in regards to being sold off.
Plus I would love to see some private collectors or musuems have an easy time acquiring a set. I wish more of the old septa m-3 cars were saved. I'm going to hope/try that the same won't happen to the silverliner II cars.
MTAPD vehicles often can be seen traveling from one MTA facility to another. For instance, the car you saw going down Lexington Avenue might have been heading to Grand Central from 125th Street station. I can't say that I've noticed any increase in "off-premises" travel.
Jimmy
A dumb question is one that is not asked. Not to worry...:-)
You couldn't sell them for some magic beans? :-P
First, what is the purpose of the third track at Beacon station? Is that platform ever used on the third track?
Second, how often do freight trains run along the Hudson Line?
Third, what's the deal with the SPV 2000 units sitting at Croton North? Are they still there or were they finally taken? Seen them last in January with other equipment including FL9's.
Finally, are the FL9 AC "Starships" still in service or are they retired as well?
Thanks for any info fellas.
Jimmy
The siding in Beacon is one of only sidings long enough to set aside a 100 car freight train, the temp platform was built for station reconstruction and concrete tie instalation it is used but very rarely, but it is used.
>>Second, how often do freight trains run along the Hudson Line?
two CSX freight trains travel the Hudson from Selkirk and to Oakpoit(bronx) p-lus two CP rail (D&H Railroad) travel from saratoga to Oakpoint.
also a local switcher during Day time hours runs from Croton to Poughkeepsie and as far south as Oak point.
>>Third, what's the deal with the SPV 2000 units sitting at Croton >>North? Are they still there or were they finally taken? Seen them >>last in January with other equipment including FL9's.
The SPV 2000 units were sold to Conndot to be turned iunto coaches, the project fell tru and Conndot sold the cars to a NJ gentleman.
they will be moved soon.
>>Finally, are the FL9 AC "Starships" still in service or are they >>retired as well?
the FL9AC's are not officialy retired but will be in 2004. they have not been used in last two years other than one being used as HEP source to keep coaches on standby heat in Harmon Yard.
currently 50% of engineers on MNCR are not even qualified on the starships.
the units were trouble prone and a nightmare.
Jimmy
The third track (TK 3) is actually a three mile long siding running from CP58 to CP 61. When welded rail was being installed a few years back a teomporary wooden platform was built on the land side of Tk 3 and it was used by regular trains while one of the main tracks was out of service. It is still used to lay up freights and MOW train and occasionally by Amtrak trains.
I don't have the exact figures on the freight but at least one through frieght a day operates in each direction, usually at night. This used to be called SEOP (SEkirk-Oak Point). Our fellow poster Selkirk would be happy to know that Conrail had named a train after him.
There were ten SPV owned by Metro-North originally. All have been out of service for several years. One unit is now at the Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum No 293. The other nine are still at Croton North.
I don't know if any of the "Starships" are still in service. I'll make a few inquires and let you know.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
BTW The last day the SPV's ran in service was September 23,1993 when Nos 291 and 297 covered train number 842 from POK to CRT.
-- Ed Sachs
This coming weekend, September 20 and 21 is another Rapid Transit Weekend at Branford. And for the price of an annual membership, $35 individual and $50 family you can actually operate one of the cars from Avenue L Station to Short Beach. And who knows, they might even have REDBIRD R-17 6688 out!!!
Do I need to bring my actual, physical membership card? I have no idea where I put it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
Jimmy
I learned years ago to just RUN 'em and let the trackwork "drive" 'em.
HOPING to get there NEXT month ... maybe for this year's prank, you guys cam pull the steering column out of one of those GMC's on the back lot and throw it in 6688. Heh. Not quite a bing-bong or a WD, but it might do the trick.
I also show them my "railroad watch" which I got at Wendy's (Snoopy / Peanuts 50th Celebration).
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Same thing with bikers. Tell one that they are driving and they will yell that they're riding. As you don't steer a motorcycle, you lean.
(you remember that picture)
You'd better go, so you can pull the emergency cord if he gets out of hand...
Oh yeah! I see it ... Rule 245(d) ... "Emergency braking contingency for AMUE and other equipment not equipped with dynamic braking" (and I quote) "Operator shall immediately center reverser key, leave cab and ensure that front storm door is fully open. Operator shall then begin to apply handbrake (if functional)."
"Conductor, upon observing "no foaming aspect" (incandescent ceiling light behind cab is illuminated) shall examine floor near front storm door for drool stains. Upon identification of floor stains, conductor shall grasp riders, one by one, and commencing with the cab side front of car, eject as many foamers as is required, cab side first, off side next until sufficient foamers have been ejected in order to bring the car to a complete stop." (see rule 100).
OK, I sit corrected - didn't see that before. :)
She runs just great, come for a ride with us. It's just $6 to get in plus five cents to transfer from the trolley. The high platform has brand new lumber & we are continuing to work on the Token Booth, turnstile, etc.
Awwwwww does that mean that #1689 won't come out to Avenue L if #6688 is there?
Anyway, how is my favorite trolley, CT #775 doing?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those who are only riding the subway cars pay regular admission (or show your membership card) plus five cents per trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Current members the fee is $20 which gets you the above minus the membership.
There is no family level entry, you would have to upgrade your Associate membership to family for an additional fee.
6688 is the planned RT car of choice this weekend. 1680 ran at least one day of each month the pervious months. Special requests MAYbe honored at the discretion of the Dispatcher (Guess who that will be).
See you there!!
We've been giving a special rate of $60 for new family memberships.
under this program.
This has thus far only come up once this season.
Because a contract was issued to rebuild the car, and the number caught on (did people actually refer to them as R-34?). The R-29s were rebuilt under the R-99 contract, but the new number apparently didn't catch on.
R-33s were all done in-house.
David
As another posted correctly noted the R11 rebuild was assigned a new contract #, so the R34 designation was born.
Also, quite ironic that the R32s have proved to be durable, reliable, and in my humble opinion, still beautiful cars after nearly 40 years on the job, while the R11s never did much but work the Franklin Shuttle.
I have as my desktop wallpaper a picture of an r-32 d train on the brighton express, cruising through the avenue something station South of Newkirk.
R-32.
Not exactly:
They spent 35 YEARS running on the Second Avenue Subway.
Their Home Terminal was 76th Street.
Elias
The R-11's were rebuilt "in house" at Coney Island shops.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-11's, where rebuilt in the early 60's after some years of collecting cobwebs in the back of the yard. Eventually, they could MU with any SMEE from an R-10 to an R-42. I've seen photos of one R-11 and two R-38's on the shuttle and a mix of R-11's, 27/30's amd 32's on the Sea Beach, back in the day when they had to scape anything together to make a train.
I guess they were to young to be scrapped so they the TA utilized them instead of retiring them. After rebuild, I rode the R-11's on the Franklin Shuttle. I liked there soft ride and the heating was best.
There were fan forced heaters underneath the seats that made the cars very comfy, not too cold and not to hot. In their later years, when parts weren't available to repair them, the TA installed the usual "bun warmers" in their place.
Bill "Newkirk"
This is alarming. Even though there is every rational reason why $1.00 is too low a fare, people are still irritated and that is what counts. Do you think we'll see a cut in service to pay for the deficit?
AEM7
There was no $2 fare increase in New York, unless you are referring to specific commuter rail tickets.
Let them drive, in that case. When they are all stuck in their cars as a consequence, $1.00 will not seem that much…certainly the proposed 10¢ tax on espresso in Seattle appears to be not as much to whine about, but you never know just what segment of the population are spoiled, selfish brats until they act up and make the rest of the country look like fools…
Seattle voters rejected the tax yesterday by a better than 2:1 margin.
When the Fair began in April 1964 there were not enough Bluebirds on hand so several trains of mainline R-33 Redbirds were sent over to help protect the service. They almost always had a maroon R-17 as the 11th car. Naturally they were well washed and the brilliant tartar red really made them stand out.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
10 R-33ML's, right?
Their being red in 1964, correct.
And to think I came THAT CLOSE to possibly riding on them!!
No, it's the R-166. This is a special prototype and retro look subway car that may squash the R-160. My insiders saw the artist conception of a stainless steel body based on the R-1 with conductors controls inside, full width cab, A/C, automated announcements and LED side and front signs. And oh yes, the return of front marker lights and express/local signs too !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh really! I would really like to see that 8-). Also I would like for it to be color LED's (showing the bullet in the front).
Knitting ? How about basket weaving ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That would come in handy when #1689 has her interior restored.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
GET A LIFE! RAILFAN, SOCIALIZE DO SOMETHING :-\
You're only mad because I "Gotcha" :-)
Robert
BTW, r-44's and '46's are not intermixed probably because they are actually very different mechanically ( though not impossible ).
R-32.
The H2 was one of the best tightlock couplers ever made. It
isn't exactly true that WABCO refused to make them. They just
cost a lot more to make because it is a big casting that requires
a lot of manual machining work to finish. The TA became enamored
with the OB "Tomlinson-style" couplers. Among the reasons was
avoiding single-sourcing. Of course, it wound up that WABCO
became the sole-source as a result of mergers.
To view the entire album, please click here. Enjoy!
This link is for a directory of various transit related pages. All in Russian, of course...
Russian site
3 inaccuracies that I spotted:
1. The Central Branch cuts off between Bethpage and Farmingdale, not between Farmingdale and Pinelawn.
2. The connection from Hunterspoint Ave to Long Island City isn't shown.
3. Hicksville should have been bolded as a "destination station".
Incidentally, didn't someone once suggest the LIRR run a shuttle from West Hempstead to Far Rock with a turn at Valley Stream?
Guilty as charged. Although I'm sure I'm just one of a multitude...
That format, in its most recent form, emerged all the way back in 1979. My aunt has a copy of the 1979 map. It was folded a bit differently than later maps. When this map was folded, the "Title panel" had the northern end of the B line on it, while in later versions, the "title panel" had the northern end of the 6 line on it.
Then came the smaller maps, with lower Manhattan on the "title panel," and everything else inside. I could always tell which was which by the red or blue box on the "title panel."
That's because there were two versions: the red box had the strip maps, and the blue box was the multilingual edition.
I read Russian, and the articles are very informative, and are going to be very useful to tourists (not that I really suppose there are a lot of people there who have the money to come here to visit). They cover a lot of ground -- ranging from the history of the subway, how it was built by private companies and acquired by the city, to contemporary safety tips for riding the trains during off-hours.
Hmmm. You have me curious. Did the site have a Russian language equivalent of SubTalk on it?
So does AltaVista. And yes, it is a very nice site.
- Lyle Goldman
- Brooklyn, NY
Elias
Mark
Finally, they need to release an odor so someone who is not helped by either the lights or the rubber bumps to know either when a train is coming and where the edge of the platform is. I'll volunteer as soon as I finish this hotdog with chili and onions. :-)
The rough granite edge was used to contrast with smooth quarry tile to do the same job as the ADA compliant tactile strips. The idea of accommodating the sight impaired on metrorail predates ADA by more then 20 years.
The stations that have tactile strips are made of a similar colored quarry tile that is 18" wide behind the 18" granite edge.
John
By feeling the dots the person then knows to feel around for the nearest support pole so that they can then read the braille lettering to know which station they're at.
CG
(the above presumes that the joke I once heard isn't actually true -- that the braille letters one sees on subway platforms don't actually translate the sign but instead read "You are way off course".
There is black lettering on the destination sign. It has good enough contrast to show up clearly in bright daylight. I have noticed the same problem with my digital camera. When it sets itself for the low ambient light, any bright area like the destination sign and the interior tends to wash out. Is there a solution for this?
Tom
Yes. If you have a reasonably good digital, you ought to be able to underexpose it and then later photoshop it into a respectable picture. Use Gamma Correct. You can then see the destination sign. But then, the lights and the rest of the station would never look so dramatic. If you are going for the burn-in effect (like sallamallah has done here), then the destination sign will never show in 100 years.
It helps to have some knowledge of what film does even if you are doing digital -- one thing that the digital doesn't do and film does is the grainyness when under exposed. However with underexposed pics the digital tends to show more noise, which the film does not do.
AEM7
Maybe not. Looks like Isabel is going south and west. Unless it turns back, just looks like heavy rain overnight.
Nature of the beast. More lead time = more false positives, just like in health care or any other type of forecasting. According to the latest strike possibilities, NYC now has a 5 percent chance of a near hit, much lower than NC.
Less crying wolf than the Orange Alerts.
Agreed. And also much more specific, and continually updated. I have no objection to the forecasting as its done (except on certain TV stations that like to sensationalize). They are very professional.
I was just slightly amused at some posters here who seemed to think that massive flooding in NYC was a foregone conclusion.
Either way, it certainly won't be as bad here in New York as it will along the Mid-Atlantic coast. Best wishes to all in Isabel's path.....may you all be safe.
We MIGHT get the full brunt of the hurricane. It's better we expect the worse and not get it than to think we ducked it and it destroys our homes and trees and rail systems.
We Gotta get to a higher place
And we gotta leave by night.
Before that river takes us down
We gotta find somewhere that's dry
We gotta run like we never run,
Or we're gonna lose the light.
If we don't get to a higher place and
Find somebody, can help somebody,
Might be nobody no more
We gotta get to a higher place
And I hope we all arrive together.
we gotta get to a higher place
If we wanna survive the weather
Well, I fool myself and I don't know why
I thought we could ride this out
I was up all night making up my mind
But now I got my doubts
I got my eye on the waterline
Trying to keep my sense of humor
But if we don't get to a higher place and
Find somebody, can help somebody,
Might be nobody no more
We gotta get to a higher place
And I hope we all arrive together.
we gotta get to a higher place
If we wanna survive the weather
I remember walking with her in town,
Her hair was in the wind
I gave her my best kiss
She gave it back again
When I add up what I've left behind
I don 't want to lose no more
But if we don't get to a higher place and
Find somebody, can help somebody,
Might be nobody no more
avid
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/118027p-106394c.html
Little does she know how that the bridge saves only 8 minutes. Still worthwhile, but not 20.
I do fault the Daily News for not bothering to check with the MTA whether her projection is accurate. Now zillions of readers will think the Daily News said that the MB reopening will save 20 minutes.
We can, but I doubt we will.
(Little does she know how that the bridge saves only 8 minutes. Still worthwhile, but not 20. I do fault the Daily News for not bothering to check with the MTA whether her projection is accurate.)
Last time I checked the schedule the total time saved was about 20 mintues. Some of that is express vs. local north of Canal, but not much. I'll double check.
Of course, Christina Howard could change to the W and save some of that. She will have to change from the R to the N anyway.
Yeah, but it's the perceptions that matter. The vast majority of commuters do not time their commute, they just want to be faster than the next guy. If that next guy happens to be sitting in another subway car... fine!
Although Daily News should probably have said something along the lines of [up to] or [about] or [possibly] 20 minutes.
AEM7
(Yeah, but it's the perceptions that matter. The vast majority of commuters do not time their commute)
Call Chrsitina a railfan.
W weekdays Pacific Street 8:00 am 57th Street 8:24 = 16 minutes.
N weekdays Pacific Street 8:05 am 57th Street 8:41 = 36 minutes.
Savings, 20 minutes. Of course, one could change from the R to the N to the W now, but just the R to the N is much better, especially since the R and the N are more or less timed together.
Big gain for those going to Midtown, and not much of a loss going Downtown because you have the R or M at Pacific. Going home from Downtown, however, not good since you have to choose the R or M, and have a long headway in either case. That's why my proposal extended the Z via Brigthon and tunnel and ran 36 trains over the bridge at rush hour instead of 40. You'd have 12 tph on Nassau going home.
That's 24 minutes, not 16.
Also, the reopening of the MB does not change service on 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
I admit I didn't consider that there is some saving north of Canal St.
But the pure bridge time saving is 8 minutes.
It'll allow for an increase in R service, given that it won't share any tracks with the N until 42nd St.
Can the 60th St tunnel handle 30 TPH (10 each of N, R and W)?
N Pacific 0709.5 Canal 0727.5 34St 0736 57St 0741 Total 31.5
W Pacific 0706 Canal 0717.5 34St 0724.5 57St 0729 Total 23
Your N arrives at Pacific just as an R is leaving, forcing it to wait until the switch north of Pacific is clear.
In general, crews (and TDs and the people who write the schedules) working in the South add 8 minutes if their express goes via the Tube, and 2 minutes if they run local north of Canal.
That's another advantage of the change -- one less merge. I've had to wait there plenty of times.
(Larry, did you randomly pick those intervals? )
Looked for a rush hour time starting in zero so it would be easy to do some mindless subtraction (though evidently not easy enough).
No, it's just going to change location. Gold St Interlocking is going to get a workout, and four lines will need to stay on time to make it work.
The N and D will merge at 36 St; the Q and B at Prospect Park. Then the N merges with the Q AND the D merges with the B, all north of DeKalb.
Anyone who does end up on an N is probably best off staying on it until DeKalb and transferring there to the Q, which runs approximately twice as frequently as the W.
I've explained why your Z proposal makes no sense. The Z only runs for about an hour in the morning and about an hour in the afternoon. Extend those morning Z's down to Brighton Beach (or Stillwell) and back up and they give the Brighton line excellent access to lower Manhattan an hour or two after the rush hour is over, but not during the rush itself. (Similarly in reverse in the afternoon.) Extending a bunch of J trains (not during the J/Z skip-stop period) would make more sense.
I need to be at work by 8:00am. What time do I need to leave home so I get to work on time?
If the planned service changes give me an express run that saves ten minutes over the local run I used to endure, I can probably leave home about ten minutes later than I used to. It's possible that, due to transfer timing, a ten-minute savings on one route will ultimately save me twenty minutes, but it's not likely, and it's even less likely that I will know already, since all sorts of schedules will be changing along with the service change.
Check the schedules. I'm looking at the early weekday morning W, where it switches from local to express. (There are a few borderline cases, which stop at DeKalb but otherwise run express. I'll ignore them.) From Times Square to Pacific, the local takes 27 minutes (5:29 to 5:56) and the express takes 19 minutes (6:15 to 6:34). That's not even close to a 20-minute savings! (If the express really took 20 minutes less than the local, it would take only 7 minutes to get from Times Square to Pacific via express. Seeing as it already takes 11 minutes to get just from Canal to Pacific, that would be kind of difficult.)
Honestly, I never trust the media in terms of providing accurate information but sometimes we have little choice. The NY Daily News, as well os other NYC media outlets, often mention subway lines that never run when a newsworthy story takes place.
Well it would save 10 minutes including the time it saves running via Broadway express but of course still 1/2 the 20 minutes it was "expected" to save". You know how the media is with trains :-\
Astoria Blvd (Home) 28th Street Station (0ffice) *sad*
N Broadway Line
Ps: soon to be the W Broadway Local
If the N is your preference, then you can railfan at the first car of the N and take it to 34th st (you will be on the 32nd st side) and walk over to work. It's only 4 extra blocks and you will get some exercise in the process.
Oh boy, I bet Fred will love to hear that!
"WAIT TILL FRED HEARS THIS!"
Why don't we actually wait until he hears it?
(sorry, that will make 50,001)
"Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty we're free at last!"
Well, it may not be exactly the same plan. The article doesn't bother discussing midday, night, or weekend service. And what happened to the W? The fate of the W isn't entirely clear, but the article omits all mention of it.
Incidentally, Ms. Howard is incorrect in her statement that "It benefits everybody." Of course it doesn't benefit everybody. Some people (Sea Beach and 4th Avenue express passengers bound for lower Manhattan; Brighton express and West End passengers bound for Broadway; passengers traveling between downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan; etc.) are worse off. Many others won't be affected by the change one way or the other. Certainly, the net benefit is great, but any service change will hurt some riders.
But that may be the least of Ms. Howard's worries after she starts showing up to work 10-15 minutes late every day.
An increase from 9 tph to 10 tph reduces your average wait (assuming evenly spaced trains, ha ha) by 20 seconds.
Off peak, Brooklyn gains the 6th Avenue option, and more express service to Canal Street and above (where most people are going), but loses the M. Total off peak tph will thus be lower. How much this will save the MTA is debatable. After all, the trains and tracks have to be maintained, and the stations manned, anyway.
There may be a reduction in Brooklyn F service if, as I expect, number of passengers hiking up the stairs at 4th Avenue and 9th Street goes down. Of course, however, there will still be a demand for F service on the Queens side, so this reduction is also likely to be modest.
On peak, the question is how the additional capacity will be distributed. Will the R become balanced, with 10 in Brooklyn as in Queens, now that the N is no longer going via tunnela and the W is turning at Whitehall (taking the slot used now by the extra Queens Rs)? That's a win for Bay Ridge.
Will the bridge traffic be balanced, with 10 on each service? That's a bigger win, since there will be more Sea Beach trains to transfer to/from at 59th. On the other hand, that would limit the capacity gain on the Brighton, which is already more crowded than the 4th Avenue line. Note that MY proposal had 9 tph on each bridge service, with the Z added to the Brighton as an express.
If they are going 10, 10, 10 and 10, they should put the M back on the Brighton, from whence it came.
Compared with the long subway service history, the Brighton had only a
short time Nassau St service. The Nassau lines ran pre-Chrystie a long
time on West End and Culver. And the (M) to 9 Av (-Bay Pkway) is doing
this service today (again).
Actually the (Q) runs at 7.5tph for most of the weekend (every 8 minutes).
I doubt that. F service was already reduced since the 63rd connector was finished. There was more service when 6th av manhattan bridge was opened, so F's probably won't change.
OTOH, I wouldn't mind seeing only 8 or 9 F tph in Brklyn if it meant that the V could be extended to Church as a local.
How much this will save the MTA is debatable. After all, the trains and tracks have to be maintained, and the stations manned, anyway.
Less labor costs, and less wear on the trains.
The midday (M) train is the most unnessecary service in the city.
I think it was approved by the MTA, or at least a committee of the MTA, at its September meeting.
Oh well. I think my variation was better, even if NYCT's version happens to give me a slightly easier commute.
Yes, and I prefer my version, not surprisingly.
I see less jobs for the Spring pick.
And as for all those passengers who think they're going to get to work faster, little do they know that it's a lot more time efficient to take a train operating through a tube at 45 mph, than a train crawling over a bridge with 10 mph timers on the downgrade.
Trains move faster in the Montague Tunnel than on the MB, but the distance is longer and there are extra stops.
The result is that the N train should take about 8 minutes less to get from Pacific to Canal once it uses the bridge. And then there are another 2 minutes of savings because now you're going express from Canal to 34th.
How much faster? Is the Bridge speed that much slower? By the way, the Montague Tunnel happens to be the slowest tunnel heading to brooklyn from manhattan.
N Bwy
The answer is no, of course—there was no subway before Metrorail. There were a few trolley tunnels that evaded certain street intersections, but nothing on the order of a Boston Green Line or Philadelphia Subway/Surface system. Is that so amazing, that a big city did not have a subway built close to a century ago…? Los Angeles plodded along without a subway system for ages, although they once did have the surface-based PE system.
Many people now wish it still did.
I find it odd that Los Angelos went so long without rapid transit as well, although not as odd.
Trackless trolleys would have been difficult to operate with the city's ban on trolley wires.
Could they not run on induction loops from below ground?
The technology didn't exist in the 1930's and a surface contact system was tried and failed in the 1890's.
Overhead wires were banned in the "Old City" for esthetic reasons (Congress didn't want the nation's capital marred by ugly wires. Even today, the traffic lights in DC aren't on spans or arms, but on the street corners.) and in Manhattan after the Blizzard of 1888.
Both Washington and Manhattan streetcars picked up power from an underground conduit, similiar to cable conduit.
Snow and ice buildup would cause pulled plows, as well as short circuits in the conduit and frozen switches. The service would be run as possible during the storm and by the time the storm was over, the system would be back to normal operation.
And Trackless trolleys would have been virtually un-workable with the DC trolley system. A city of such historical value as DC prohibited overhead wires from blighting the sightlines of the tourists, so the Washington DC PCCs were equipped for both regular trolley operations (further from the city, where nobody cares), and to take power from the 3rd rail in the middle of the street (where the 'ugly' trolley overhead would detract from the views). To make a trackless trolley operate off such a system would require two rails in the ground to carry the power, thereby negating the primary advantage of Trackless trolley, namely that the street does not need to be touched, once you're diggin it up for two rails, might as well just throw in another and run a trolley. I suppose trackless could have been done out a fair distance from the city, but either the traffic density wasn't high enough, or they realized that they cannot sell diesel to Trolleybusses. Still it'd be very interesting if Montgomery County MD had it's own ETB network, then I'd be able to truely respect the Ride-On system.
Perhaps it's not a measure of the presitge of Washington DC that it didn't recieve a subway prior to 1969, but rather a measure of the effectiveness of a trolley system such as they had. With trolleys, people were less inclined to use the car (or it could be that it was pre-war, so fewer people had cars, and just as many people lived in suburbia), thereby keeping traffic levels low. After the trolleys evaporated, the diesel bus did not hold the same appeal as the PCCs, and people drove, choking the city with the traffic that we still see in DC. Such a traffic situation demanded some sort of off-road solution, and in a city where logic need not apply they couldn't admit that they'd been wrong, rebuild the trolley* (with a few more miles underground running, to avoid the traffic the diesel bus created), thus they have the Metro, and I for one am not complaining.
*Yes, I know that the traffic levels and so on would have overwhelmed a trolley system quickly, yet another reason that Metrorail was chosen or whatever.
Huh? What do you think LA's interurban and streetcar network was all about?
wayne
The District has never had more than 700,000 people, and currently has about 570,000. The suburbs stretched out about 5 miles outside the District (which has the same area are Brooklyn and 1/5 the population). The big "distant" suburbs were Arlington, Bethesda, Silver Spring and Hyattsville.
Around the time that the Beltway was built in 1964, the area started to gain population and spread out more. It may be hard to believe but the Virginia Beltway from Springfield to Tysons Corner and McLean was 2 lanes each way until 1975.
Anyway, ground was broken for the Metro in 1969. The Metro is really a set of commuter lines NOT subject to FRA regulations that is a subway in city itself. Now the Washington area is considered to be the District, adjacent cities and counties and one more layer of counties outside.
One final comparison: 55 years ago, when the country had 160 Million people, and NYC had 8 million (or about 5% of the country, just in the city alone), Washington, Arlington, and the other nearby suburbs had about 1 Million people, half of whom lived in areas that looked more like New Rochelle or Hempstead than an organized city and were at most 8 miles from the White House. A subway would have been way too much to build then. Now the only thing holding back incredible crush loads is the fact there isn't enough parking near the stations, and the busses run along weird routes along the few main suburban roads, with many branches causing most people outside the city (and many inside the city) to only have busses every 20-30 minutes to connect to the Metro.
Compare this with Toronto, which has a similar population, but has very organized parallel streets and train service every 5 minutes even at 11:00 PM, and predictable frequent busses along usually arrow-straight routes right to the subway stations. Not that DC's system is bad, but the unique geography of development made it unfeasible 80-50 years ago, and unable to reach its apogee today.
Okay, I'm done...
The Metro is really a set of commuter lines NOT subject to FRA regulations that is a subway in city itself
The NYC subway could be regarded as something like that, although the city boundaries encompass it. However, the Metro does not extend as far as VRE’s or MARC’s destinations, therefore it is not truly “commuter rail” notwithstanding.
I think I disagree with that statement. The ends of the lines are still embedded within the city matrix, a part of the street grid, contributing to the population density of the neighborhoods near the line endpoints. As you travel from the CBD out along those routes you never really ever bypass large swaths of cityscape. The express portions can be described using "blocks" as distance indicators.
Suburban rail by and large does have that portion of the ride "leaping" over large stretches. Of course, we also have the in-town portions of the major suburban commuter lines. The M.N. locals, in particular. Also, the Hempstead LIRR branch is probably the closest we get here to having a form of "super subway" line. Being that it is local in Nassau, local in Queens and local in Brooklyn, yet traversing larger gaps between stations than subway lines. And it does have an interesting ROW. Underground terminal, subway running, elevated running, more subway running, more elevated running, finally turning into a typical suburban rail line.
And I suppose to call Metro a commuter rail system is to get into the definition of a subway, a metro, and a commuter rail system, it really just seems to be the eye of the beholder. I suppose that back in the day when the first els were going up in NYC and Chicago, they were commuter rail, linking the far off rural destinations of Flushing, Coney Island, Wakefield to the crowded island of Manhattan. Fast forward to the 1960s and it only makes sense that now the systems would run a bit faster, have greater distance between stations, and all that kind of thing. BART and DC METRO are subways, make no mistakes about it, they may move quickly, they may have almost commuter train-like station spacing, but they are still not governed by the FRA. They happen to be a product of the UMTA times of the late 1960s, the times that gave us (obviously enough) the SOAC car, the Boeing LRV, PATCO, BART and the DC Metro. Really PATCO is the not-so-missing-link between the early subway systems and the systems like BART and the Metro, a zone fare system using ATO capable of operating in excess of 60mph, yet it still runs 67 foot long equipment through tunnels dug in the 1920s, with 1920s clearance issues.
I have long maintained that such modal divisions are meaningless and are really a stumbling block to more effective transit. There is very little reason why subways shouldn't run at grade, trolleys shouldn't be powered with a diesel engine, and commuter rail with stop spacing of up to 3-4 miles shouldn't make multiple stops in the city center. The objective is getting people from their origins to their destinations -- not to get the people from the neighbourhood train stop to the downtown.
Sure there is! Could you imagine the Lex line running at grade level!
The term "subway" is grossly misused on this site, and really in this city too. It's any underground rail system. So, just one block over from lexington, we have another subway; But because regional lines run on it, we don't consider it to be a subway. Conversely, When the entrances to elevated stations say "Subway" on them, that too is a misnomer. What should really be placed on such signs is the MTA logo, or the name: "New York City Transit."
2 side notes:
'Subways' do not run at grade level because they serve areas where there is no place for a grade level set of tracks. Could you imagine them building grade level tracks for the 2nd av subway? But in less dense areas, there is room. Rarely do city subways extend that far though, so commuter trains run on rails at grade.
2nd: I had always wondered: why not add in some stops along Park av, and have MNRR trains provide some east side service as an alternative to a 2nd av subway. I know why that was never done now. Park Avenue snobs would never allow that.....
Pure logic would dictate against placing a heavily used subway line on a heavily used road. However, there is no reason that a subway line could not be placed as grade with grade crossings and all. After all LIRR pulls it off, NYCTA runs 600 foot trains, which should easily span the intersections.
Of course everyone knows that a subway is a pedestrian underpass, and a Metro is an underground urban rail line.
I agree with what AEM7 said, there's too many class distintions between the various modes of transit. Theres no reason that everything couldn't be mixed together, with LRT, Heavy Rail, Metro, Monorail, whatever all sharing tracks (where possible, Monorail wouldn't quite work with any kind of dual rail thing) to provide the best transit solution. Unfortunately America draws all kind of arbitrary lines across our transit options, there is no reason that a LRT cannot run down heavy rail track, cept for the FRA saying it shall not be.
Also, why would MN want to stop and start their trains once or twice on the way up to 125th? Could you imagine the chaos at rush hour if there were to be a station at 59th or 86th?
In fact, the NYC subway system used to have at least one grade crossing. But in most places it simply would not work. Manhattan, and Parts of the outer boroughs have too much traffic to have trains running by constantly during the rush hour. Plus, LIRR trains move a lot faster.
Of course everyone knows that a subway is a pedestrian underpass, and a Metro is an underground urban rail line.
No. A pedestrian underpass, is a pedestrian underpass. An underground urban rail line is a subway. And Metro is short for Metropolitan, as in 'the New York Metropolitan area'.
I agree with what AEM7 said, there's too many class distintions between the various modes of transit. Theres no reason that everything couldn't be mixed together, with LRT, Heavy Rail, Metro, Monorail, whatever all sharing tracks (where possible, Monorail wouldn't quite work with any kind of dual rail thing) to provide the best transit solution.
I agree with that point, but I see why the FRA stops inter-mixing from happening. If MNRR can run on the lex line, what stops AMTRAK from doing it? Or then freight lines? Could you imagine a freight line running with LRV's? Plus, many lines that stay within one municipality don't abide by FRA rules, and that's why we don't have Queens Boulevard super-expresses.
Also, why would MN want to stop and start their trains once or twice on the way up to 125th? Could you imagine the chaos at rush hour if there were to be a station at 59th or 86th?
No more chaotic than any subway line at rush hour. How many tracks are there at this point (4? I always thought there were...) How many trains does MNRR operate in this area? I was talking about adding additional trains, and then building a few stops, and putting these trains on subway maps. (Even build a connector to 63rd tunnel perhaps)I'm not very knowledgeable about MNRR, but they probably could pull it off.
What you are describing is how all commuter trains run in Germany, in a subway-style rail system in the city, where the many suburban lines mixed on 4 tracks create a service every 5-10 minutes, and how the RER runs in Paris. The only thing that is different in these many European cities is the ticketing is compatible with the regular subway system, i.e. no conductors collecting tickets but turnstiles or honor system + frequent surprise inspections.
It would be nice if the MNRR or LIRR could do that; it would lower the crowding on the Flushing line and E train, increase traffic to Fordham Plaza, and relieve crowding on Lexington Avenue, maybe.
Finally, it helps Europe that these trains, as in Philadelphia, run into then out of the city, so there is no gigantic GCT to find your train at, just a station with two tracks each way and trains continuing along from north to south or east to west.
Which city/ies do you mean?
In Frankfurt, Stuttgart and Munich the trains (using same rules as ICE)
run through a city tunnel with a scheduled headaway of 2.5 minutes using
two tracks.
You are SO WRONG!
sub·way ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sbw)
n.
1.An underground urban railroad, usually operated by electricity.
A passage for such a railroad.
2. An underground tunnel or passage, as for a water main or for pedestrians
Just put me in your killfile. PLEASE.
Of course everyone knows that a subway is a pedestrian underpass, and a Metro is an underground urban rail line.
And then I said what I said. Of course, by putting in huge bold letters that I was wrong, you do nothing other than try to make me look like an idiot. Thus, just ignore my posts, like most of the people on this board.
Or did I miss a rerun?
No wrong in Chap11.
Putting in huge letters at the top of the screen:
YOU ARE SO WRONG!!!
Is simply trying to make me look like an idiot.
Yes. Notice I never said anything against the FRA, or mixing commuter rail with subways. I merely said commuter rail can FUNCTION as subways and make multiple stops to drop people off closer to where they are going. I never said that we should allow subway cars to run on FRA tracks.
Standardization in general increase costs, because you have to engineer for the most demanding situation. However, there are some cases where standardization may in fact reduce costs. One such instance is where you are trying to dig a tunnel through the downtown. If you are going to dig a tunnel, you may as well engineer it for FRA clearances and use only FRA compliant vehicle on it. The incremental cost of making subway cars FRA compliant is small in comparison to the cost of a second parallel tunnel. But if you have capacity problems and you needed two tunnels anyway, then you could constrain FRA traffic to only one of the two, to further reduce costs.
AEM7
I'd like to see this shuttle service run between Fordham Rd and GCT, and between Jamaica and GCT (via East Side Access).
Questions:
1. How do we do fare control at 125 St. and outer-borough stations?
2. 59th & 86 St. Platforms: Interior or Exterior Tracks?
3. How do we turn trains & get them to the correct tracks?
4. Is there really enough track capacity to do this without interfering with LIRR & MNRR operations?
Not only will the MN and LIRR most likely not touch in GCT (IIRC LIRR will be on a 3rd, even lower deck), but now you're getting into all this Overrunning vs Underrunning 3rd rail BS. MN uses the New York Central-style underrunning 3rd rail, while LIRR uses the Pennsy and NYCTA style overrunning 3rd rail. Thus far there has been no rail vehicle capable of traveling between the two 3rd rail types.
Of course all this would have been massively simplified if at some point back in the day (say 1950s) NYC would have just admitted it was wrong and installed AC catenary (or at least 600 to 3000vdc cat) over it's entire system, including the roof-raising or floor-lowering of GCT and it's Park Ave tunnels as necessary. Then none of this would even worry us, it's just all be 11.5-12.5kvac or 25kvac at 25 or 60hz, which is much easier to work with!
Mark
http://www.clouse.org/dctrans.html
I just found out that the old B&O west of Deshler was actually single track before the whole Conrail split, and was likely to have been DTC with color position lights only at interlockings (i.e. otherwise dark).
It looks like B&O ripped out the color position lights way before CSX was even thought of.
AEM7
B&O through Maryland seem to have a half-assed version of CTC, whereby the track circuit occupancy data is not communicated to central control, as a result people in Jacksonville have no idea where the trains are until they pass over some interlocking. Do I have this right? I presume in the 'new' section west of Willard, the signalling system has been wired up in a more sophisticated way?
If I am right I recall the difference between 'real' CTC and B&O CTC was that in real CTC territory there is no delay-in-block rule, because the dispatchers knows where the trains are, while on B&O even if you could run bi-directional, failure to call the dispatcher when there is a delay-in-block could cause a collission. ???
Or the B&O control system east of Willard, Ohio considered not really a CTC implementation? It seems to have half of the features of CTC control: bi-directional running with automatic block signals, but then it retains many features of Rule 251: delay in block rule, local control of interlockings...
AEM7
The absence of "traffic control levers" does not necessarily imply that the jacksonville dispatcher cannot see TOL's for every block, but it does suggest that possibility. My comments re: the B&O Rule 265-272 running on their main line only pointed out that automatic signals were not at all infulenced by a traffic control lever.
I presume in the 'new' section west of Willard, the signalling system has been wired up in a more sophisticated way?
I am almost sure of it.
If I am right I recall the difference between 'real' CTC and B&O CTC was that in real CTC territory there is no delay-in-block rule, because the dispatchers knows where the trains are, while on B&O even if you could run bi-directional, failure to call the dispatcher when there is a delay-in-block could cause a collission. ???
NORAC Rule 403a applies in all territory, CTC or ABS. Where the dispatcher has the ability to determine track occupancy he can provide relief from this rule, but relief is not automatically given.
It seems to have half of the features of CTC control: bi-directional running with automatic block signals, but then it retains many features of Rule 251: delay in block rule, local control of interlockings...
That would be CSX rule D-251.
I spoke with a few CSX crewmen when I was last down in Maryland, and they seem to think the dispatchers "have no idea where the trains are", suggesting that they do not have track occupancy lights. I assume that the new B&O main west of Willard has "real" CTC.
My comments re: the B&O Rule 265-272 running on their main line only pointed out that automatic signals were not at all infulenced by a traffic control lever.
So the Willard Sub prior to the makeover had Rule 265-272, i.e. remote control of interlocking plant, automatic signals, bidirectional running, but no "traffic control lever" -- whereas after the Serpents took over, they have remote control, automatic signals, bidirectional running, and traffic levers? Doesn't sound like much of an upgrade to me, and certainly not worth ripping out all signals on a line for, even if I don't mind the traffic lights.
AEM7
There is no "Custom" surcharge. US&S Manufactures the model S-8 CPL dwarf (a copy of the GRS model) and both Safetran and US&S still sell position light signals, although they are of the PRR construction style rather than the B&O. I have not seen a GRS catalogue so I do not know if the old B&O style CPL hardware is still sold.
The B&O signal aspect system is arguably one of the more theoretically advanced in the country. It is unique in the US for a colour light system in that the colour red is displayed only for STOP, STOP and PROCEED and RESTRICTED PROCEED aspects. The Conrail modified PRR PL system also only displays the colour red for STOP, but that is a non-colour system.
Moreover, the B&O CPL dwarf is probably the most advanced dwarf type signal in that it displays the exact same aspects as the high signals (no need for the crews to learn a second set of dwarf specific aspects), it displays all possible aspects and displays all the possible aspects in a compact area. For example, in NORAC there is no way for a dwarf to display straight approach. Also, to display the full range of colourlight aspects you either need a stacked searchlight signal (moving parts) or a 6-tall stack of modular colour lights, which can be unwieldly to say the least.
Moreover, the B&O system was more positional than the other Position Light system. Instead of a light bar standing in for a colour light, the 4 position-colours of the main head were modified by one of 6 marker signals in some positional relationship to the main head.
The B&O CPL's are easily read from long distances, are less able to be mis-interperated and the STOP aspects more easily define the limits of the interlocking.
Ah, yes, but you forgot a very important cost. Crew. Crew makes up something like 20% of all the railroad's operating costs. Considering that BNSF and UP uses traffic lights, it might be easier to steal their crewmen if CSX also adopted similar signals. It loweres the training costs and it allows the railroad to bid downwards in a climate of surplus labor. Of course at the time of a labor shortage, that advantage can completely disappear or even become a disadvantage. AEM7
See those little holes on the side... It's a manual mechanism operated with a hex key of some sort.
Like these:
CIY, 1/12/1969, 83K
Marcy Av, 7/27/1971, 138K
CY, 6/29/1981, 129K
R42 Interior, 1/23/1971, 127K
The R46s were the only ones that had this feature. The R44s were like the R40s thru R42s-they had to be changed manually.
I heard it on WCBS AM radio that over 200,000 thousand people have stopped taking the subway since the fare increased. So the city lost $400,000 dollars in just a several months after the fare hike and who knows how many millions this will add up before the end of the year.
For all those who were for the fare increase, it looks like these folks simply choose to drive their car. I haven't bought a monthly metrocard since the fare hike and used the money to get a junk bicycle that I use to commute around town.
It just goes to show you that increasing fares is NOT the answer to MTA's problems. I'd like to know how much money the city really made on the fare hike minus all those commuters who where lost!
Steve.
So then what was the answer? If you've got an idea, I'd like to hear it.
Is this 200,000 a day? Or 200,000 from projected ridership in the months since the fare hike?
Yeah, doesn't everybody just like to pawn off their costs to someone else? People who ride the subway are not willing to pay for the subway through the farebox; people who don't ride the subway are not willing to pay for the subway through tax hikes. But SOMEONE has to pay for the subway. Else it will shut down.
AEM7
Also, adjusted for the increase in free transfers and unlimited rides, the cost per swipe remains lower in nominal dollars, at $1.33, than in 1995 ($1.50). Adjusted for inflation and the 5 for 6 discount, the inflation-adjusted pay per ride fare ($1.67) is lower as well.
Perhaps a fare table should be added to NYC Subway Resources. I can provide information on the base fare, and adjust past fares for inflation into today's dollars. That's two columns.
But an accurate portrayal needs to include two other factors -- fare discounts vs. added fars, and free transfers.
Of course we have the unlimited ride and 5 for 6 discounts now. Were there ever discounts for 10 packs? And there used to be a double fare to Coney Island, and later to the Rockaways.
As for free transfers, back before 1940, for example, one had to pay a second fare to go from one subway company to another, and sometimes from one trolley line to another. The number of free transfers within the subway system increased over time, and the bus system was unified. In the past decade, you have the free bus to subway transfer. Perhaps all this could be quantified somehow.
I guess there were 200,000 thousand people who were paying $2.00 and are now driving to work or simply walking.
That's actually good news. These people displaced by the MTA, will make the highways even more congested than it already is. More people will therefore choose to go by MTA once they notice that their drive is becoming intolerable. MTA can make more money, and carry more riders. AEM7
I NEVER drove when I lived in NYC, I sold my car as soon as I moved to NYC.
It is more likely that people are making fewer extra trips, such as to the city for a movie or a night out, or that it is a part of a general economic downturn.
Let me assure you that the subway IS A BARGAIN!
Our business manager charges us 25c / mile for automobile use. A round trip from here to Bismarck is $37.50.
If your average subway trip is 5 miles that is $1.25 and does not include parking or trolls.
No, if they are CHEAP, they sure as heck ain't driving...
unless of course they cannot count.
Elias
But what if you only need one or two rides? The discount should be given for a round trip like many transit systems currently implement it.
Only one or two rides during the span of a year? I highly doubt that. MetroCards are good for a year, and you have an additional year to transfer the balance of an expired card.
I think I got an OK deal!
: )
Elias
I say paying $2 would not make you stupid. Jumping the Turnstyle would make you stupid
That is correct. You have to ALREADY be stupid to pay $2.00
They're too stupid to do the math. They're fixated on the $2.00 fare!
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the WCBS AM, the transit authority reported over 200K less ridership since the fare hike.
I don't have the specifics, but rest assure it will add up the the millions. This fare increase was supposed to be a winfall and will end up being a shortfall with the commuter paying more for less.
Do you mean that the ability to get a free transfer to a connecting bus line, rather than paying a second fare, is "paying more"? I don't think so. Add in the buy more/get more metrocard purchasing schemes, and it looks as though the commuter is paying less for more. About the only "less" aspect of the system nowadays is the reduced number of, uh, manned, uh, token booths. That, and the reduction in open, less busy mezzanines at stations. That is a drag, but the ride itself has gotten cheaper.
For all those who were for the fare increase, it looks like these folks simply choose to drive their car. I haven't bought a monthly metrocard since the fare hike and used the money to get a junk bicycle that I use to commute around town.
The city's job market has been in a fairly bad way for a while. It's entirely possible that many people have reduced their subway riding because they no longer have jobs to which to travel.
But you still consider yourself a railfan or at least a subway enthusiast? Do you EVER ride the subway anymore? How many months of not buying a monthly will it take to recover the cost of the bike?
I ride the Path every day to work. I wish there was a way to walk over a bridge into Manhattan but the GWB is too far away. I still use New Jersey Transit and ride the MTA when the weather gets bad.
I'm like the tens of thousands of others who are not using the system anymore or decreased our usage. It's become too expensive and I was spending over $160.00 dollars a month between the Hudson Bergen lightrail monthly pass, Path 40 dollar quick card and MTA monthly card.
Do you want to know how these 200,000 thousands commuters get to work each day without the MTA? All you have to do is look at the gridlock on Madison avenue during rush hour and that speaks for itself.
OH.. As for the bike. It paid itself off last month and only cost me $65.00 dollars and that includes the locks too! That beater bike lives on the streets 24/7.
Quite the contrary. I've been using the MTA system since I stated working uptown or about 6 years.
>>>>> And I highly doubt there are "tens of thousands of others who are not using the system anymore or decreased our usage." <<<<<
If this was not the case, how come the MTA reported the figure of 200,000? Are these people simply jumping the turnstyle?
>>>>Maybe people like you, who used it very rarely or just as a treat to not have to walk a minor distance, but if you *need* the subway, you're still using it.<<<<<
That's just it. There are thousands of people who *need* the subway are now using cars! How else can you explain the shortfall of passnegers?
>>>>You do realize that the fare increase raised the avg fare 30 cents or less, right? We've discussed this before, but I can't see how someone with a job would not be able to afford such a minor increase.<<<<
It's not a minor increase. You think that everyone is buying a monthly card. You couldn't be more wrong. There were plenty of people putting single dollars bills into those MetroCard machines while the majority paying less than $20.00.
Well they are dumb. You buy $10's worth at a time (formerly $15) and you save a lot of money!
So all these people would rather pay for gasoline, tolls, parking, and car repairs, not to mention have longer commute times, simply because the fare went up? Are they doing it out of priniciple or just plain stupidity?
There has been gridlock on Madison Avenue for decades. I doubt the fare increase has brought a noticeable increase in traffic volumes, especially since tolls and gasoline prices have also gone up by as much or more than the subway fare.
The bike has other benefits besides replacing the subway rides he took. A bike can take you quickly and efficiently to many places where the subway can't even go near. It can take you door to door to a friends house or the food market. Down here in Baltimore I use my bike to railfan.
I did some railfaning in Staten Island over the summer and visited each stop along the way. I plan to do that this weekend in Brooklyn.
While the MTA did lose about 200,000 riders since the fare hike, they're still making a VERY hefty profit. (Source: Daily News article from about 2 or 3 days ago.)
Your calculations are faulty. The loss of 200,000 riders is not a $400,000.00 loss. The proper calculation (ignoring for simplicity all the various discounts) is the MTA had a reduced income of $1.50 for each of the 200,000 who no longer ride, but have an increase of $0.50 for each of the many millions who continue to ride. The break even point is if the system retained 600,000 riders (which it obviously did). The MTA would have broken even if it lost 25% of its riders (which it obviously did not).
Tom
As others have pointed out, is that per day or just 200,000 aggregate since the fare increase. At 8 million riders per day the first is meaningful and interesting while the latter is just statistical noise.
A second question to ask is lost 200,000 riders compared to what? Is this based on seasonally adjusted ridership levels? After all, the summer months are typically much lighter than others to begin with (my own observation based on rush hour riding mostly).
CG
CG
Recall that the MTA's revenue can be plotted as a curve. The highest point of the curve is not maximal ridership; it is maximal revenue. The revenue figures show that so far, MTA is climbing that curve. 200,000 fewer riders - but the rest are pouring net more money into the system.
After you leave a few months for the dust to settle, some of those 200,000 riders will come back -especially after they figure out how to use MetroCard discounts better. The reopening of PATH in November will bring MTA more riders, as will the reopening of the Manny B's north side tracks in 2004.
This does not appear to be 200,000 people a day, but 200,000 people since May. That is NOTHING.
DRIVING? Not a Snowball' Chance in hell.
Do you have any idea at all how much GASOLINE PRICES have gone up since last May?
Sheesh!
I got a 17% on my High School Algebra final, but even *I* can count better than that!
: ) Elias
Furthermore, if there really were a substantial drop in ridership, NYCT would be able to save money by reducing service in response.
Most New York City residents don't have cars. You suggest that the subway lost lots of passengers in favor of their cars. Even if those former passengers were willing to spend time sitting in traffic, even if those former passengers had free or inexpensive parking near work, even if those former passengers would rather pay for gas than for the subway, the majority of them don't have cars to begin with!
Finally, let me get this straight. You were content in paying $63 per month, but $70 is enough to push you to buy a bike. That's $7 per month, or about 30-35 cents per work day (15-17 cents per trip), assuming minimal usage of the card. How much is your time worth?
Incidentally, what does the city have to do with any of this? The MTA is a state agency.
You know what probably accounts for most of the lost rides? Fun Pass usage rates have dropped in half, since the Fun Pass fare increase was a big deal. A lot of people who used to use the Fun Pass to run errands now pay per ride and walk short distances instead of hopping on the train for two or three stops.
I'm very good with math thank you.
200,000 passengers X $2.00 = $400,000.00 dollars. (Lost revenue)
200,000 passengers X $2.00 = $400,000.00 dollars. (Lost revenue)
Yes, but that's not the correct answer for how much revenue was lost. It's one thing to know how to solve a math equation, but it is just as important to know how to set one up, and you don't. You used the wrong numerical values and unit labels.
A weak grasp of numbers? Here's what I did.
200,000 riders X $2.00 = $400,000.00 dollars
Furthermore, we cannot estimate how much money these commuters would have spent shopping in the city. Furthermore, we cannot estimate how many would have made a return trip possibly adding another $400,000.00 dollars to the MTA
>>>Furthermore, if there really were a substantial drop in ridership, NYCT would be able to save money by reducing service in response.<<<
This is great. Under this assumption, the city would raise the fare and decrease services and it's OK with you? Why not just keep the fare where it is and not have to reduce service in the first place.
3. >>>Most New York City residents don't have cars. You suggest that the subway lost lots of passengers in favor of their cars.<<<<<
That is correct. How else can you explain how 200,000 thousand fares were not collected? How did they commute? By taxie?
I think it's fair to assume that many weekend passengers and tourist who would have commuted by subway are NOT doing so because of the cost. I believe the majority are using their cars or paying taxies. The millions of lost revenue from this 200,000 hundred passengers will never be counted in the final totals.
>>>>>Even if those former passengers were willing to spend time sitting in traffic, even if those former passengers had free or inexpensive parking near work, even if those former passengers would rather pay for gas than for the subway, the majority of them don't have cars to begin with!<<<<<<
You can bring up all the arguments but the numbers still speak for themselves. There were 200,000 less people going through the turnstiles than before.
>>>>Finally, let me get this straight. You were content in paying $63 per month, but $70 is enough to push you to buy a bike. That's $7 per month, or about 30-35 cents per work day (15-17 cents per trip), assuming minimal usage of the card. How much is your time worth?<<<<<
Good one. I pay the Hudson Bergen Light rail $53.00 dollars for a monthly pass because it saves me from having to cycle another 12 miles from Bayonne to Hoboken. If I lived 2 miles or less, I would not use the service at all. I also purchase a $40.00 Path Quick card since there is no way to cross the Hudson River.
About .30-35 cents per work day?
The MTA is $4.00 dollars round trip. A month card was more than the bike and I would have to spend that much every month. The cost of the bicycle after 3 months is zero. I
My bicycle trip from 34th to 53rd street takes about 20 minutes. It adds another 10 to 15 minues on my commute which I will gladly make considering the rising cost of the MetroCard.
>>>>Incidentally, what does the city have to do with any of this? The MTA is a state agency. <<<<
You have me there.
>>>>You know what probably accounts for most of the lost rides? Fun Pass usage rates have dropped in half, since the Fun Pass fare increase was a big deal. A lot of people who used to use the Fun Pass to run errands now pay per ride and walk short distances instead of hopping on the train for two or three stops.<<<<<
It's possible the Fun Pass accounts for some of those lost rides but the 200,000 figure is too high to account for it all. As I said before, it was the casual weekend rider who is now driving elseware who the city lost.
Your weak grasp has to do with you using the value of "$2.00" in the above equation.
Furthermore, we cannot estimate how many would have made a return trip possibly adding another $400,000.00 dollars to the MTA
I assume the "200,000" number refers to "rides," and not "riders," and as such "200,000" includes all trips not taken. There are no "return trips" that aren't already in the "200,000" rides number.
Under this assumption, the city would raise the fare and decrease services and it's OK with you?
No, we were just telling you what would happen if your incorrect assumptions were somehow correct. BTW, the CITY has nothing to do with the fare!
believe the majority are using their cars or paying taxies.
People employing either of those options will incur MUCH higher costs than if they just rode the subway. So no, they are not using cars and taxis.
You can bring up all the arguments but the numbers still speak for themselves. There were 200,000 less people going through the turnstiles than before.
What numbers, "200,000"? That is a tiny number! We don't care about 200,000 less rides. It doesn't affect anything, really.
Good one. I pay the Hudson...
You totally have no clue what he was trying to tell you. I'll let him try to explain it, yet again.
My bicycle trip from 34th to 53rd street takes about 20 minutes.
So you bring a bicycle on the HBLR and PATH every day during rush hour? That's just wrong. And it can't be much fun.
As I said before, it was the casual weekend rider who is now driving elseware who the city lost.
But you aren't a casual weekend rider.
If they aren't using cars and taxies how they traveling? I doubt these commuters are staying home on the weekends or not commuting to work. Under your assumption, these commuters are simply doing nothing with their time. One way or another, the 200,000 thousand that used to take the subway are not doing so and the city is losing more than half a million dollars. All the food, drink and shopping these tens of thousands of commuters will not be counted in the totals of lost revenue.
What numbers, "200,000"? That is a tiny number! We don't care about 200,000 less rides. It doesn't affect anything, really.
>>>You totally have no clue what he was trying to tell you. I'll let him try to explain it, yet again.<<<<
I don't have a clue is correct on what his statement was is correct.
>>>>So you bring a bicycle on the HBLR and PATH every day during rush hour? That's just wrong. And it can't be much fun.<<<<<
You can't being a bicycle on the HBLR or PATH during rush hour. I use two bicycles and one stays at the HBLR 34th street station. Upon arriving in Manhattan, I have another junk bicycle waiting for me to complete the rest of the trip to 53rd street. I've been doing this for 4 months quite successfully.
If I wanted to, I could use a folding bicycle but find my use of junk bikes to be better. You right in stating that bringing a bicycle on a train would not be fun.
My total commute by bicycle is 1.2 miles in Manhattan and 1.1 miles in New Jersey or a total of 4.6 miles per day.
I believe I'm the only one in the state of New Jersey who has such a strange commute.
Walking, biking
I doubt these commuters are staying home on the weekends or not commuting to work. Under your assumption, these commuters are simply doing nothing with their time. One way or another, the 200,000 thousand that used to take the subway
No no no! Didn't we conclude that it was a total of 200,000 rides over a three month period? Not 200,000 riders every day!!!!!!!!!
are not doing so and the city is losing more than half a million dollars. All the food, drink and shopping these tens of thousands of commuters will not be counted in the totals of lost revenue.
I don't care, and neither does the MTA. It is INSIGNIFICANT. Besides, this was not considered by the MTA. The MTA is a STATE agency, not a city agency.
Reread what you wrote, you are contridicting yourself. First you say they are not just sitting home and still must be going to work. Okay, so they still go to work using a different mode of transport. Then you say the city is loosing money from them not eating and drinking, etc. Well, whether they take the subway or not, they are apparently still in the city eating, etc. You are still in the city eating, drinking, and shopping apparently, so no loss of residual city revenue from you or others like you.
What numbers, "200,000"? That is a tiny number! We don't care about 200,000 less rides. It doesn't affect anything, really.
Correct, it doesn't. The subway revenue went up with all the millions of people that still ride the subway, and pay the increase. Not only did that counter out the small percentage of people lost, it raised the money taken in.
Why not buy a car like the other 199,999?
But all those rides would not have been $2.00 rides. Many of them would have been $1.67 with metrocars, or even less with unlimiteds. There is no clear cut 200000 rides = $400000. I already explained that in another post, but chose not to believe that.
This is great. Under this assumption, the city would raise the fare and decrease services and it's OK with you? Why not just keep the fare where it is and not have to reduce service in the first place.
200000 lost rides is hardly a dent in a subway system that carries millions of people. If the article you read wasn't skewed and provided you with all the information available you would have seen that even though ridership is 200000 less (which can also be accounted for the summer drop due to vacations, etc), you will see that revenues went UP not down after the fare increase (the other millions of riders are paying the increase), so there is no fear of service cuts due to a measly 200000 drop in ridership.
I think it's fair to assume that many weekend passengers and tourist who would have commuted by subway are NOT doing so because of the cost. I believe the majority are using their cars or paying taxies.
Uh, gas prices went up by a much higher percentage than the increase in fare. Parking costs are much higher than the subway. It takes longer many times to commute by car than by subway in the city. Most tourists don't have a car with them, and parking costs are far higher even if they do. And taxis...sure to save $.31 to $.50 (depending on how you look at the fare increase) it is FAR better to spend a much higher cost just to sit in Manhattan gridlock.
The millions of lost revenue from this 200,000 hundred passengers will never be counted in the final totals.
True, but the extra revenue from the MILLIONS of riders that do still ride IS counted.
The MTA is $4.00 dollars round trip.
No, it's $3.34 (or less with an unlimited). No regular rider would be stupid enough to pay $2.00 instead of buying at the very least a $10, 6 trip MetroCard.
It's possible the Fun Pass accounts for some of those lost rides but the 200,000 figure is too high to account for it all. As I said before, it was the casual weekend rider who is now driving elseware who the city lost.
Casual, infrequent subway riders are effected the least by the raise in fare. If someone is planning a trip to the city, is $.50 more really going to stop them? I find it hard to believe that even $3.00, the extra cost of FunPass will even stop them.
200,000 riders X $2.00 = $400,000.00 dollars
Let's try this one more time.
You still haven't said if these 200,000 rides are daily, monthly, annually, hourly, or every second. Let's assume daily. 200,000 rides a day, 73 million fares a year. That's $146 million lost for the year 2003.
The New York City subway system carries 1.3 billion trips per year (Source: MTA-About NYC Transit). In 2003, 200,000 people have bought cars and drive into the city instead - and we'll assume they only use Port Authority or DOT crossings, so no toll money is going to the MTA - leaving us with an annual ridership of 1,227,000,000. We'll simplify by assuming none of these rides took advantage of a volume discount or unlimited card; i.e., each fare went up from $1.50 to $2.00. That's a gross profit of $613.5 million sucked out of those poor souls who can't afford a car.
$613.5 million - $146 million = $467.5 million net profit.
I don't think those 200,000 fares will be missed.
200,000 riders X $2.00 = $400,000.00 dollars
I rest my case.
STOP perpetuating this lie! The word is they are there for work service. Too many people have already been hurt by this false rumor, and I don't want to see anyone else hurt.
I don't believe I suggested otherwise.
6 R36 trainsets on the 7? which cars are next to go and when?
After a jaunt out to Main St and back....and if I have the rest of the day to kill...any other suggestions? I never rode the Crosstown line....maybe hit the Franklin shuttle and check out the site of the Malbone wreck?
Oh...and I'm not too picky on what type of Redbird...R33, R36 WF, if it looks, smells, sounds, and rides like the cars I rode on in 1969, then that will do me just fine!
I read from other thread that 70 cars are left and a couple of more R62A sets are coming in. I can't wait until they're all gone.
Well they cut service to get people accusomed to riding a new segment in the subway system. DUH!
Now they've got E train service to 179 Street but limitted service
rush hours service only. now the F train is the only subway line
giving service to 179 Street local. when they originaly opened up
the jamaica ctr tude....
I think that Jamaica Center can't turn all of the trains in the rush plus it was restored when the V was introduced. The F was the sole train to 179 St full time since 1992, NOT 1988. That's when the F continued to have the Hillside express and the R was the replacement for E service [via Hillside local weekdays only] but people would get disgusted with it, complain about no direct express service (at local stations) and eventually was cut back to 71 Av.
why didn't they just continue service on the
the E train express to 179 Street as well as give service to
jamaica ctr as well?
As I said the R was the replacement of the E on Hillside Av and for a time as I have read on other sites, the E did in fact have temporary service to 179 St for a short time.
On a side note, the more neglected stations are the ones thagt lucked out in this case. The formerly "well-maintained" stations, like on the M line, and over Jamaica Ave had all their abandoned mezzanines COMPLETELY removed about 10 years ago during renovations. The severely neglected Broadway El stations retained them in their general neglect of those stations. Then by the time they came around to renovating the Broadway El stations, metrocard technology allows "unmanned" HEET entrances/exits at those stations, so all the abandoned ones were completely renovated, even if they are not in use. Lorimer is the first of I'm sure many where the abandoned exit has been reopened with HEET technology. The M stations and the Jamaica El stations would be almost cost-prohibitive.
The Autumn Ave mezzanine was/is always closed and is an exit-only. Same as the 123rd St exit at 121st Street. The TA must have had some statistics which showed that this exit was used more than the secondary exits at other Jamaica Ave. stops.
It still bogles my mind why they would retain a second entrance at Cypress Hills, but totally remove 2nd mezzanines at stations such as Forest Parkway and 104 Street, etc.
D went on the Culver
D went on the Brighton (Local And Express)
D will be on the West End Come February
D you can bet any money will go down the Sea Beach due to G.O's!
Congrats to the almighty D Line! Come February!
Some D trains DID go no the Sea Beach line. When there was a blockage on the Brighton Line, the Sea Beach was the best choice for the D because it was next to the Brighton platform.
06-20: D train near Smith-9 Sts.
You can see part of the KENTILE Floors neon sign behind the front of the train
12-19: A B train on its way to the Culver Line. Spotted at Canal Street/6th Avenue
20-14: D train at Church/McDonald Av station
Was not too long ago, probably just before 9/11 happened. A G.O. on the 4th Ave line, very bad one, forced the N to run Brighton express in the N/B direction on that weekend. The R and W were shuttles and shuttle buses were provided between 36th st and Pacific St.
WHAT the N was trespassing on our line? Arrest the N.
I guess it wanted some of the Brighton glory :-D.
Use those and D trains also ran on Centre and Nassau Street Lines.
For some reason, this line reminded me of Kevin (Selkirk): The £1.9bn, 46-mile first section runs from the tunnel near Folkestone, to Fawkham Junction in north Kent.
It is roughly 504 miles between Boston and Washington D.C. If we had the Eurostar type cars at their top speed (189 mph) then it would just take 2 hours and 40 minutes for the total trip time.
15 Minutes between Washington D.C. and Baltimore
45 Minutes between Washington D.C. and Philly
80 Minutes between New York City and Washington D.C.
81 Minutes between New York City and Boston
Now just imagine that! That would get the airline industry shaking in their boots if we had that possible!
I am cheering this on, because this could make trains viable again!
Now the calculations I did were just based on the top allowable speed of the Eurostar which is 189 mph. Assuming it did that from the moment it moved its wheel to when it stops, I didn't do fancy calculations. So add how ever much time you want to make the it more realistic. Still the time will be very impressive.
The way FRA rules stipulate things now, such speeds would never be allowed on the Northeast Corridor—it would take building LGVs (such as they did in Britain for the Eurostar, please note the crux of the article) between Penn Station NY and Boston, Penn Station NY and Philly, plus Philly to Washington DC. The Acela Express is reputedly capable of some 169 mph top speed, but the horsepower could be upgraded quite readily and top speed could go up consequently. (Also, on LGVs, tilting suspensions could be dispensed with, what with the norm of building them with minimal to no curvature.) This, then, would be a very expensive project.
Now I wonder, will they ever get Britain’s InterCity 225 up to 225 km/h (its target top speed of around 140 mph)…? Why not shoot for 240 km/h (150 mph, the target top speed for Acela Express)?
Intercity 225 sets have been allowed to operate at 140mph on certain sections of the East Coast Main Line since 2000. In practice they rarely do so, especially since the Hatfield accident. The 'flashing green' aspect (Advanced Clear) was installed at a number of signals in a long 125mph stretch some distance north of Peterborough in 1999.
AEM7
LGV = Ligne à Grande Vitesse, or High-Speed Line in English. The famed dedicated rights-of-way along which TGVs achieve their close-to-200-mph running speeds, IOW.
Anyway, a better solution to the problem would have been to upgrade the line to a 4-track RoW so that both the throngs of local commuters and the handful of people who actually use the EuroStar could benefit from the service.
Anyway, a better solution to the problem would have been to upgrade the line to a 4-track RoW so that both the throngs of local commuters and the handful of people who actually use the EuroStar could benefit from the service
And what local commuters would be using the Eurostar? And can you verify “handful”…?
You prefer your “better” solution to what is clearly the best solution, namely building the LGV? I would call the LGV a step upwards. There would be no room to convert the existing lines out of Waterloo to four-track, plus in no way would 186 mph be allowed.
Shortly after the Eurostar service opened it became a money loosing while elephant. Its been recovering as of late but it is still not as popular as was concieved. Compared to the commuters on the London to Folkstone line the ridership is a "handful".
BTW, I've ridden this train twice and both times it was "Packed".
It's the best mode of transportation to come along to connect the British Isles with "the continent" in over 100 years.
Jim K.
Chicago
Same when I was over in August. There were no empty seats in any of the tourist-class cars on my return trip, and maybe 1 or 2 per car on the trip from Waterloo International to Gare-Nord.
What stunned me -- utterly and absolutely -- was what happened on the way to Paris, just after emerging from the portal in Calais. We just kept accelerating, faster and faster. When we finally hit max speed, it was smoother-running than any rail vehicle I've ever ridden on at any speed. The real kick was when you realize that the highway beside which the ROW is situated has a posted speed limit of 130 km/h, or about 85 MPH, and most cars, if they're anything like over here, were likely going well in excess of that. We blew by them as if they were standing still.
The return trip after emerging on the U.K. side was just as stark, alas...poking along at well under 60 MPH, stopping every so often along the ROW. Sad. Even sadder, seeing the new, pristine -- and unused -- ROW just beside us as we became a high-tech Toonerville Trolley for the ride back to Waterloo.
Next time over, I can't wait to ride the new ROW. Just wish I didn't have to wait another 4 years to ride from St. Pancras.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
A 4-track combined RoW like the NEC would improve both local and long distance service
That is a separate issue to Eurostar. The best thing that could have been done for Eurostar has now been done.
Not to mention (and thanks very much for making me repeat myself) that 186 mph would never be permitted on such a ROW as you propose, especially if it was completely parallel and not like an LGV but like the NEC as you suggest.
Also, there was some push lately for getting the Eurostar out of busy Waterloo and into underutilized St. Pancras station. This would have the added effect of not needing the third-rail pickup system and associated automatic variable-tap transformer systems…
What I don't understand, there are how many 17 or 18 trains a day going to both Paris and Brussels. Is it worth it to have this new right of way only for these trains or will these tracks hook up with Eurostar service to other parts of the UK?
On the French side, in effect Eurostar is the Atlantic division of the TGV and the tracks are not only used by Eurostar but by many of the Thalys trains running between Paris and Brussels and Amsterdam.
That's the station right next to St. Spleen, isn't it?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
It's not so much Waterloo *station* that's busy - they built a new international station there anyway - it's the tracks on the approach to Waterloo, which are maxed out at peak hours.
St Pancras *has* been somewhat underutilised since the suburban trains were transferred away from it and onto the Thameslink cross-London service. However, that is not the main reason for sending the Eurostars there - indeed, St Pancras is being massively rebuilt to accommodate them, so clearly the spare capacity was not enough! The St Pancras platforms were nowhere near long enough for very long Eurostar trains, for one thing (what are they, 18 cars or something)?
Although the transfer of the Eurostars from Waterloo to St Pancras has been controversial, the major reason for sending them there is to facilitate cross-London traffic. Kings Cross/St Pancras is London's most important interchange, and this will provide direct connections from the Eurostar trains to all the other services going out of Kings Cross and St Pancras termini to many destinations in the Midlands, the Northeast of England and Scotland. Arrival at Waterloo means that all international passengers bound for anywhere north of London (i.e. 3/4 of the UK) have to use the Underground to get across London between termini. Or given that they have luggage, more likely a taxi. Since the idea of running though Paris-Edinburgh trains seems to have disappeared, at least the St Pancras terminal will make Paris-Edinburgh with one easy connection between two fast trains a possibility.
The "missing link" of the new system will be the half-mile or so along Euston Road between St Pancras and Euston stations - without that, Eurostar passengers bound for Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and all other places served out of Euston do not have a direct connection. In my view, an undercover moving pavement should be provided along Euston Road to link St Pancras and Euston stations. An even better idea would have been to align the Eurostar platforms east-west underground, with exits at their east end to Kings X and St Pancras and at their west end to Euston. Sadly that was never possible, because the tube line is in the way! Speaking of which, *that* tube line - the world's first underground railway - celebrates its 160th birthday this December.
A 4-track combined RoW like the NEC would improve both local and long distance service
That is a separate issue to Eurostar. The best thing that could have been done for Eurostar has now been done.
Not to mention (and thanks very much for making me repeat myself) that 186 mph would never be permitted on such a ROW as you propose, especially if it was completely parallel and not like an LGV but like the NEC as you suggest.
Also, there was some push lately for getting the Eurostar out of busy Waterloo and into underutilized St. Pancras station. This would have the added effect of not needing the third-rail pickup system and associated automatic variable-tap transformer systems…
It's worth noting (in connection with Jersey Mike's point about the poor suffering Kent commuters) that there *is* an intention to run high-speed commuter trains along the new track from Kent to St Pancras after the full route is open. But these will be separate trains that will run in England only, not the Eurostar trains from Paris.
You know what your comment reminds me of: the situation on MNRR between New Rochelle and New Haven. MNRR riders outnumber Amtrak riders by a huge margin, yet you rarely seem to have any sympathy for them, saving pretty much all your sympathy for the cruelly abused Amtrak.
I like how things work on the NJT portion of the NEC. Amtrak has priority, but NJT can still run 100mph Super-express trains on the middle tracks when there is space available.
As of 12:00 noon today, Amtrak has announced the following schedule modifications:
FLORIDA AND SOUTHEAST SERVICES: Trains 92 (Silver Star) and 97 (Silver Meteor) originating on Sept. 17 are cancelled. Train 90 (Palmetto) will operate from Miami to Jacksonville only. Auto Train service (trains 52 and 53) will operate on Sept. 17, but will be cancelled on Sept. 18.
NORTH CAROLINA SERVICES: Trains 73 and 74 (Piedmont) and 79 and 80 (Carolinian) will operate as scheduled on Sept. 17.
VIRGINIA TIDEWATER SERVICES: On Sept. 17, Regional trains 85 and 93 will operate to Richmond as scheduled, but train 95 will terminate in Washington instead of Richmond.
On Thursday, Sept. 18, Regional trains 84 and 86 will originate in Washington instead of Richmond, and trains 76, 77 and 94 will be cancelled between Newport News and Washington.
OTHER SERVICES: On Sept. 17, train 30 (Capitol Limited) is cancelled between Chicago and Washington, and train 48 (Lake Shore Limited) from Chicago to New York City will terminate in Albany instead of New York. For passengers scheduled on the Lake Shore Limited beyond Albany, alternate transportation will be provided on Empire service trains.
I could imagine if we saw Harrison "I hate snakes" Ford or Sean "SHOCKING. POSITIVELY SHOCKING" Connery waiting for the film to start.
I took the Southwest Chief from Kansas City, which has a beautiful Union Station that, fortunately, does still function as a train station (and also a science musem). I didn't have time to look at the 2nd floor historical exhibit (which includes all kinds of things regarding the Kansas City Southern Railway, UP, etc.)
Amtrak's French Toast was its usual delicious self and I enjoyed the crew's gracious hospitality. The dome car was nice, but one of the windows leaked a bit (there had been some rain). Every time I take a long-distance train across the midwest I marvel at the Mississippi and the "amber waves of grain" - a sight to behold!
We traveled into Chicago by way of Metra's Naperville Line, which is three tracks (Amtrak stops in Naperville, just past the commuter rail storage yard, then uses the middle express track). We zoomed through the middle of various suburbs at 80 mph, then had to do some backtracking into Union Station. My hotel was a few blocks from the Madison Street entrance; a passing sailor helped me get my heavy bag up the stairs.
The weather was beautiful. Wherever I went, on Saturday and Sunday, I never had to wait more than 60 seconds (I'm serious) for any CTA train or bus. I still was almost late to the wedding, because my Line 151 bus from Union Station was fighting bumper-to-bumper traffic (on a Sunday) equal to any rush hour I've ever seen going up Michigan Avenue.
CTA charges $1.50 cah fare, with an extra 0.30 for a transfer to any bus or subway. The fare cards they use look very similar to the MetroCard; the subway turnstiles and bus fareboxes process them the same way NYC bus fareboxes do, except that the farebox does not "eat" transfers. But CTA does one better: they use the same bus fareboxes as SEPTA, which accept dollar bills for visual inspection by the driver; the card reader is an extra unit attached to it.
CTA subways (I mean any rapid transit train, subway or elevated) don't go enough places. The Loop is great, but there are areas of midtown (for example, the 1500 block to 2000 block north level) where if you are west of the Loop in a neighborhood filled with stores, restaurants, crowded sidewalks, and very heavy traffic, there is no subway within even long hoofing distance.
Chicago recently added a line to Midway, and is rebuilding the Brown Line. I'd like to see another subway through that midtown district.
Interesting sight: the buses had a pretty healthy turnover (people getting on and off) but were not crowded (plenty of seats open, even on the low-floor buses with fewer seats). Elevated trains were running with 2-car and 4-car trains, depending on the line, and they were not crowded either - plnty of open seats.
Both bus drivers and station attendantsbent over backwards to be friendly and helpful with directions. I felt very welcome.
On the way back to KC, I took the Ann Rutledge (was the train really named after a 22-year old girl who died of an infection and supposedly was Abe Lincoln's first girlfriend? Why?) to KC by way of St. Louis. St' Louis has a Union Station, but it's a shopping center. Amtrak lives in a crappy wooden trailer with one vending machine, and you walk over to Light Rail by way of 15th Street, walking under an expressway and through a construction site. The main post office, federal building, municipal courts, and Opera House are there.
The Missouri River beckoned. The ride was pretty good (refurbished 1950's equipment, no restaurant car, though, only an Amfleet Cafe car). We got stuck behind some freights after Jefferson City MO because UP single-tracks there.
I believe Ann Rutledge was a name from the Alton Line's B&O heritage -- the route from Chicago to St Louis and then onto Mobile, Ala. passes thru President Abraham Lincoln's hometown, Lincoln, Ill., hence the named day train on that line is the Abe Lincoln. Obviously then, the night train would be Ann Rutledge.
B&O owned the Alton line between about 1924 and 1948. I don't remember the precise dates. You still see color position lights out there.
http://www.geocities.com/findinglincolnillinois/railroadpage.html
AEM7
From Dictionary.com definition of 'mule' n.:
1. The sterile hybrid offspring of a male donkey and a female horse, characterized by long ears and a short mane.
5. A small, usually electric tractor or locomotive used for hauling over short distances.
6. Slang. A person who serves as a courier of illegal drugs.
The high-speed rail there is likely to be named the 'Kansas City Falcon'.
AEM7
I've heard the term "yard goat" before, but not mule. Still, it fits quite well.
Small correction: Abraham Lincoln never lived in Lincoln, Illinois (although, after looking over the link you provided, I see that he actually was present when the town was named Lincoln, which I couldn't have told you). If I remember correctly, Lincoln lived in New Salem, IL for a time and of course he also lived in Springfield up until he was elected President.
Frank Hicks
(Illinoisian)
Not yet, no. There is a Blue Line subway stop about two blocks from it, though.
Long-term, there is a drive by the city as part of its "Central Area Plan" to create a subway that links the Blue Line's north and south branches via a subway under Clinton Street, which is the street directly west of both Union Station and the former Northwestern Station. It would be in a series of tunnels three levels deep. The deepest would host stations for midwest high-speed trains (or just Amtrak if nothing better comes along), the middle level would host the Blue Line subway, and the upper level would host either busses or trolleys.
You can see a cutaway illustration of it here (page six):
http://www.cityofchicago.org/planning/PressReleases/centralareaplan/chapter3.pdf
They also are talking about an underground busway (or something similar) under Monroe because ROW has been preserved there for transit.
Personally, I think that they should seriously consider extending a subway from North/Clyborn to Halsted/35th, maybe partly as an elevated track. The city keeps talking about expanding the West Loop, but until the current mass of professionals living in the north side lakefront neighborhoods can easily get to the West Loop, I think commercial growth in that area will be limited. At a minimum, the CTA needs to get the Circle Line done and it needs to place infill stations (at Halsted and Racine I would think) on the Lake Street "L" (Green Line) branch before the West Loop can really be a destination for commuters.
A step backwards, I'm afraid. Until its abandonment on May 4, 1952, the Humboldt Park "L" served more or less the territory you describe, running from a junction with the Logan Square line north of the Damen station, westward at about 1650 north to Lawndale Avenue.
http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/humboldt.html
> I noticed that Union Station is not directly served by any subway
> lines.
Another step backwards. Union Station was much more accessible to the Canal Street station on the old West Lide "L" main, which passed over the south platforms half a block south of the headhouse. There was a covered passageway from the "L" station to the Union Station concourse. Since the Congress Street Subway replaced the Garfield Park "L" on June 22, 1958, rapid transit connections to Union Station have entailed a longer and less sheltered hike.
Alan Follett
5 Runs in Brooklyn rush hours only
B Runs in the Bronx rush hours only
5 Stops at Bowling Green forcing people to transfer to the 4 for Brooklyn service
B Stops at 145th Street forcing people to transfer to the D for Bronx service
5 and B were 3 borough lines during rush hours, 2 bourough lines all other times except nights(not counting B to 21st Street Queensbridge)
Nights 5 and B were one borough lines, which ran as shuttles
5 was the Dyre Avenue Shuttle
B was the West End Shuttle
5 and the B both had the same rush hour terminals in Brooklyn with the 2 and the D
2/5 Flatbush Avenue B/D Coney Island
5 and the B had the same route in the Bronx with the 2 and D, except for local/express differences
2/B local
5/D express
5 and the B had Bronx rush hour terminals one stop from the 2 and D
5 Nereid Avenue-238th Street/2 Wakefield-241st Street
B Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street)/D Norwood-205th Street
The 5 and the B had Bronx rush hour terminals that had street names, which were often referred to by their old Bronx numbered Street designation by the locals (and the MTA as well if you count the 4 line)
5 Nereid Avenue-238th Street
B Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street(locals used this, MTA used this for the #4 and #8 lines,never for the B/C/CC/D)
5 ran express in the Bronx during rush hours, B ran local in the Bronx during rush hours.
All B trains shared a common terminal in the Bronx, the 5 line had two different terminals in the Bronx.
The B runs local in Manhattan and skips only two stations (14th and 23rd Streets), the 5 line runs express in Manhattan throughout most of the borough.
All B trains in Brooklyn went to one terminal (Stillwell), OTOH the 5 line had several trains going to different terminals even though it is not listed on the subway map. Some 5 trains originated/terminated at either Utica or New Lots.
But you also forgot one common trait the 5 and B lines do share, the respective shuttles are both OPTO as well.
B
5
23-C-23: For those of you who think that gray (5) is a faded green, take a look at the yellow (6) beneath it!
08-12: Another gray (5) at Grand Central.
Last night saw 10 car R142 consist, S/M 1231 burn testing on the 1 Line (1/BROADWAY LCL/TO 242 ST was all I could see of the signs). Unfortunately by the time I realized it was an R142 I couldn't get my camera out and get downstairs from the tower quickly enough. I would have liked to see the internal strip maps as well to see if it was for the #1 or they were playing around with #4 line equipment.
Burning an R142 on the 1 line???
Well... SOMEONE had to start the fyre.
So, it's possible it was a transfer/fix-up job returning south...
:)
Not all cars had this.
- Bob Dylan, "Bye and Bye", Track 4,
"Love And Theft", released 9/11/01.
Why so many senior citizens in your film? Connery is in his 70s and Caine is getting up there as well.
Heston has Alzheimer's so he's out as well.
And who is "Kirk Douglas, Jr."? You mean Michael Douglas?
Bah. I remember one of us posted a pic of a station canopy which
had an air raid siren on it.... and we had the pic here in this here board..
Was it on
Halsey?
Sumner?
Someother?
wayne
***** WAYNE ******
There's a Federal a block from my house, a Diaphone sits on top of my old elementary school.
They are all relics of the Cold War.
Other stations I can remember seeing sirens on are Flushing Avenue (J) (model 5), Claremont Pkwy (8) (Darley), Avenue P (F) (model 3), Bay 50 St (W) (model 2), Bronx Park E (2) (model 3), Gun Hill Rd (5)(station house)(model 2), Ditmas Ave (F) (model 5). I am sure there were many others.
wayne
wayne
See ya,
LightRailChic
I gots me a digital camera...
I gots me a daypass...
and 2320 will be out on the 36 Island Ave trackage tonight!
You will have Pics of 2320 by 10pm tonight, even if I have to sneak into Elmwood Depot's shop building and risk arrest for tresspassing!
This kid's got potential, real potential. Good luck, kid.
Chuck Greene
2320 was in the Elmwood shops, unfortunately in a non-photograph friendly position. The superintendant (or some SEPTA semi-bigwig) told me that things were just too nuts (it was about 2-3pm, right at the start of rush hour). But tonight, about 7-8 I guess 2320 will be out on the 36 median trackage on Island between Elmwood and Eastwick, you can bet I'll be down there!
I got another pic of a 15 Girard Trolley today!
However, I'm already taking a whole vacation day on Wed to take my grandson to Strasburg for "A Day out with Thomas".
BTW, did you see this post?
But not to worry, I understand. Heh.
Mark
Mark
2320 was 2750; the rebuilt cars are getting new numbers.
Was this huge open space the result of the former H&M terminal being ripped out and moved south? That's what I'm thinking.
---CH11CHCH
Peace,
ANDEE
That's not what I've always heard, and what is written here: http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/path/path-33rd.html.
Elias
That makes for lighter construction (not having to hold tons of dirt in place and all) and a more open apperance to the station (if only they could have exicuited that properly, but then the IND was a VERY UTILITARIAN project on purpose.
Elias
I'll give you that one, but it *could* have been a whole lot nicer.
Elias
Also signs if the shortcuts taken are starting to show, a large section of tile fell down at the 35th/B'way entrance about a month ago. It still hasn't been fixed and there are tiles popping off the walls all over the complex.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
It's ok, but a better renovation was possible.
It would have been far nicer if they'd had direct staircases between BMT and IND platforms. I'm sure there was a reason for not doing it, but think of all the time spent by people going up 2 flights and back down 1 instead of just up 1 flight.
Besides that it is the best train ride EVER!
The train does have a nice interior plus nice amenities, however, gushing like that will not help it achieve its intended top speed of 150 mph over long distances. The qualitative statement “best train ride ever” can be applied to trains such as the TGV, ICE, Shikansen, Talgo 350 (when it starts running) and even AOE, but until Acela Express runs at 150 mph over at least 300 miles of its 450-mile route, I will reserve the descriptive word “best,” and certainly keep it reserved versus other varnish running in the USA.
Now you know what I myself think of the Acela Express, at least…and, IMHO, predecessors like the PRR Metroliner (preferably with the same high-speed nose that was applied to the Budd SPV-2000 demonstrator once) and the UAC Turbotrain should have paved its way properly…
The problem has more to do with the right-of-way and catenary than with the train-set itself. Sure the 4" problem does slow it down on some curves, but even if that problem had never happened, the train still wouldn't be doing 150MPH around those curves. In short, unless the right-of-way is rebuilt and all the old catenary replaced, the Acela Express train-sets will NEVER "run at 150 mph over at least 300 miles of its 450-mile route." And that was never its goal. So you are evaluating it with illogical parameters. You should be looking at if the train-set is doing what AMTRAK SAID IT WOULD DO.
You should be looking at if the train-set is doing what AMTRAK SAID IT WOULD DO
Which it isn’t.
Nor was Amtrak ever clear about what the Acela Express trainset would be doing. All I remember was a 3-hour NYP-BOS trip time, which is a 75-mph average speed (which seems very unlikely that the AE train will ever achieve, not to mention it being a very low goal even on the Shore Line) and a 2-hour-15-minute NYP-WAS time, which is a whopping 104.6 mph average speed, where you would need lots of 150-mph running.
So, just what did Amtrak say the Acela Express would do?
And that was never its goal
Then why bother getting the trainsets in the first place? The 125-mph Metroliner Service trains do just as well, as it stands. The money spent on the AE sets would have been better spent on ROW improvement IMHO, in that case—and all that would have needed to be done after that was acquire high-speed power cars and rebuild Amfleet I cars to Tier II specs plus with active-tilt suspensions (and since the Amfleet Is are 10' even as opposed to 10'4", Metro-North and CDOT would be more friendly towards allowing them to run on their tracks with active-tilt switched on). (And oh yeah, Amfleet Is also have low-platform steps…)
I did a round trip from NY to Boston a few weeks ago, and will probably stick to the Delta shuttle in the future -- as long as the weather is good. Acela Exp still takes a little bit too long compared to flying that leg.
CG
Short version of the story. Convention for the blind. 6 guide dogs on one bus for a scheduled 3 hour trip. Unanticipated 2+ hour delay due to accident / road construction with nowhere to pull over. One dog can't hold on any longer. All dogs catch wind and decide it must be time to go. Trapped on the bus for another 30 minutes before we could pull over and clean up.
Arrive PABT nearly 4 hours late.
CG
Oh god no. While it is nice and smooth and fast these can be the greatest problems for the rail enthusiast. First, it is two popular and it is hard to get a row accross to your self for photos on both sides of the train. Second, if you are riding for the ride, it is not the real speed that counts, but the effective speed you FEEL you are going. There are a number of speed multipliers that increase the effective speed. These include traveling through tunnels, traveling on jointed rail and traveling in an portion of the car open to the outside.
The three best rides I have had are as follows:
Philly to Harrisburg in a Haritage Coach at 90mph running on jointed Rail
Rear vestabule ride on a Keystone Train in December
Rear vestabule ride Baltimore to Philly on a Regional Train before Labour Day 2 weeks ago.
From my business traveler's perspective, it has been very reliable and efficient, especially when my business is in Manhattan... by saving travel to/from the airports. And, it's weatherproof!
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Of course, I want to see 16 departures a day, not just 8.
At Sheepshead Bay I scanned the car for misplaced R-42 seats, since I was already getting uncomfortable. No luck. No surprise there; they're usually on R-40M's, not R-40 slants.
Between Kings Highway and Newkirk I noticed that the ride was much less jittery than it was yesterday.
At Newkirk I noticed that there were peepholes into the cab, useful for obtaining speedometer readings. Some R-40's have peepholes, but they're more common on R-40M's.
At Prospect Park and at 7th Avenue we met up with southbound diamond-Q's, and both were R-40M sets.
From DeKalb to 14th Street I slept. I haven't fallen asleep on the subway in years.
At 34th Street I looked through the first car at the front of the train and didn't see the slanted front. Ah, I must be in the third car. My mistake.
As the train approached 57th Street I looked around me and noticed that I was on an R-40M.
Good night.
What was the trick between the first and last sentence of the thread? If you look at the car # and found the number between 4150 and 4449 then the first sentence would be correct and the last sentence would be wrong.
OTOH if the car # you looked at, was between 4450 and 4549, then the last sentence would be correct and the first sentence is incorrect.
Great brain teaser Mr. Greenberger. I assume the Russian trumpet player was not in the car you rode this afternoon.
So you missed your stop too? Or were you heading over to Lex Av?
Why?
The train I boarded at BB was on the NB "local" track. The C/R tried to close the doors, but she couldn't because of a crowd of door holders. Eventually she got them closed, but by that time the next SB local was already coming in, and for some reason we waited for it to stop and open its doors. We opened up again and waited another few minutes. Then we ran into the door holding problem again when the C/R tried to close up the second time, largely because lots of people on our train had run across to the other one and now were running back. By the time we left, there was already another SB express waiting to enter the terminal, so I figured the express on the other track would be right behind us.
Then, at Parkside, we were held to let the local to go in front of us.
So there were two locals in a row in front of us, and we were the first of two or maybe three consecutive expresses.
Normally on weekdays, the local uses the SB track at 57th and the express uses the NB track. As I expected, we came in on the SB track, with a local on the NB track. As soon as we pulled in, the starting lights came on and we pulled right back out (much to the dismay of all the passengers on the local on the NB track), where we found the next express awaiting access to the terminal.
Seriously, I have been doing similar things lately (a combination of old age setting in and sleep deprivation.....).
-A few weeks ago I was parked at Forest Parkway on the J. I went to Manhattan, and was on my way back. I was looking out the windows, and all of a sudden I hear the conductor announce "Central Ave". I jumped out the door, and here I was at Central Ave (instead of happily on a J at Kosciuszko)....I forgot to check if I got on an M or a J at Chambers Street!
-A few months ago I was headed uptown on the 8th Ave line destined for CPW. (I was with some out of town relatives destined for the Natural History Museum). We were waiting at 14th street and got on the local. All of a sudden, I look out an I see 7th Ave! Obviously I had gotten on the E instead of the C. I quickly yelled to them, "We have to transfer here". We then waited for the B. They didn't even think about it twice, as we were transferring all day. They just thought it was "just another transfer", but secretly I felt like a boob.
-Finally, just the other day I was on waiting ot 47-50th/6th for an F. The train pulls in, and I get on. I'm happily riding along when we stop at another station, and a woman asked me if this E was going to World Trade Center. At first I looked at her like she was nuts, and then looked around and realized I was on an R32 E train on 6th Ave! (There was a GO a few weekends ago with the E's running on 6th). I had run from 47th to 14th, and didn't even notice.
.....a mind is a terrible thing to loose.....I almost thought I may have to turn in my "railfanning card" for some of those mistakes.......
LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS!
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
How do you know this, by the way?
iespell
You are not supposed to block the train’s way. That is against the law. People like that ought to get no sympathy; their families should not be permitted to sue; plus, posthumous traffic violation tickets ought to be issued to the family instead.
Funny that with all the tax money sunk into highways and local roads, virtually nothing is spent to help the railroads get fully grade-separated. There would be less of a payoff for the families if the person ran a red light and got killed by a tractor-trailer than getting hit by the train, I tell you… >:-(
That does NOT tell the whole story.
This Legislator was in the vanguard to OPPOSE the grade crossing elimination until AFTER his daughter was killed there.
He was holding out for a subway (underground) solution for the grade crossing project. Pie in the Sky (or some other hole).
He was afraid that it would make a Chinese wall through the middle of town.
Nothing could have been further from the truth. Elevating the tracks in Merrick opened up the downtown area with more north south roads, and beter visual sight lines.
Elias
Wait ... the Herricks Road crossing, which is the one at which the deadly crash occurred, is not in the town of Merrick, but some distance away in Mineola. Grade crossings in Merrick were eliminated when the Babylon line was elevated. Herricks Road is on the main line, which still has many grade crossings.
I also may have been misquoted with respect to the legislator's involvement. While I know there was a big outcry for elimination of the grade crossing following the van crash, I don't know whether any political bigwigs had any personal connection to the tragedy.
The Legislator in question opposed the elevation of the line fearing that it would create a wall throught the middle of town.
I was pointing out that said legislator was incorrect in his assumption, for the elevation of the lion at Merrick (where I lived at the time) created no such wall, but did in fact open up the downtown area.
Elias
The last one was a double-whammy....northbound Amtrak about 11 p.m. one Friday night back in April, train doing 90 MPH (which IS the legal track limit in the area). I heard it all on the scanner as I live a mile away -- engineer called dispatcher, and said he nailed a car that went around the gates. Witnesses at the scene also confirmed that the car went around the lowered gates. Two less idiots on planet earth....
Yes, you can listen in on the gabbing on the Gold Line. Ibelieve the frequency is either 160.215 or 160.245. Hell, I hear the Godl line all the way up on Cajon Pass, and out in Cabazon the other day, they must have a hell of a repeater!!!!
And living a mile from that crossing, *I* can tell you, the gates come down in PLENTY of time before the train. And -- there are two other crossings within the half mile before this crossing so the motorist had PLENTY of time to hear the train's horn blowing. The engineers are rather incessant with their horn blowing in our city, much to the chagrin of many residents. (I say make all the noise they want, I love the train horns!! That's why I moved into the place I did right next to the tracks...I know, I'm nuts.)
And it's not like there's just a small handful of trains a day. There are about 32 Metrolink movements, 20 Amtrak Surfliners, one BNSF local freight round trip, and abotu half a dozen BNSF road freights to/from San Diego. The track speed limit has been 90 MPH on this track for YEARS. Fast trains are nothing new. Without offending anyone, the situation at this crossing has a LOT to do with the neighborhood and who lives in it....
Was the R-11 an unreliable car? Were parts difficult to get? Was the R-11 design so different mechanically from the R1-9 and the R-10 that parts from those cars couldn't be used?
However, IIRC, since there was still the problem with the disc-braking system on the 34's, they were always run with other equipment to compensate (and usually not as lead car units).
After the R-34 rebuild, all R-11s could and did m. u. with later cars.
OK, why were not the next cars (R-16s?) not stainless steel products from Budd...
Go ask a POLITICIAN not a Railfan! : )
Elias
-- Ed Sachs
:-) Andrew
It's OK to look flashy and streamlined, but the portholes on the side doors reduced the ability for those on a platform to quickly see how many passengers were waiting to get off when the doors opened, increasing the time in the station for unloading and loading passengers. It might not have been noticed in the R-11 with four larger doors, but it certainly was a problem with the smaller R-15.
Tom
Yup... The R-11s had the conductors between the cars.
Elias
--Mark
The seating on the R-11 rebuild had the velon or fake rattan fabric. The plastic seating was installed after vandalism and the lost art of reupholstering subway seating ended.
Bill "Newkirk"
Okay most people who see it won't know the difference, but I wonder why not just put the words "Los Angeles subway" in the text box and save the trouble of diguising the cars?
Mark
Why would they need to leave America to go to America Jr?
But the big "M" logo belongs to the Los Angeles subway. Toronto's retro-styled TTC logo is very different in appearance.
Mark
Type: New York Subway in Yahoo, and see what the first listing is.
"We apologize for the avoidable delay."
or
This is an Inwood-207th St bound K express train. The next stop is Marcy avenue. :)
This is a Bronx Bound #2 express train...
or This is a Bronx Bound #4 express train...
or This is a South Ferry Bound #6 train...
In this fantasy, where did the Transit Museum move to, Queens? Manhattan?
or
"This is a 3 Avenue, 149 Street bound EIGHT Train. The NEXT...and last...stop is...3 Avenue-149 Street.
or
"This is...Fordham Road. CONNECTION...is available to Metro-North."
For those that are not familiar with the eight train, it was the 3rd Avenue El Bronx Line. It ran from 3rd Avenue-149 Street to Gun Hill Road-White Plains Road. It was replaced in 1973 with the Bx55.
On the East Coast
Boston, New York City, Philly, Baltimore, and Washington D.C. would all be linked by High Speed Rail
On the West Coast:
San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Possible Seattle would be linked as well.
Now assuming all construction has to be done, roughly 2000 miles of new high speed rail would have to be built, funding and building of New Right of Ways for certain sections and more importantly the way of carrying electricity and subsidies would all have to be accounted for. Now how many stations would have to be built? None, since the stations that are needed are already there. This would be a Multi-state and Federal Venture, funded by everyone who accepted participation.
I would estimate 100 Billion easily required for this project, maybe half a trillion in total. Now if we could build thousand, upon thousand miles of Highway, then we have to give this a chance.
Though it is highly unlikely with a federal government who loves to kiss the airline industries ass, but what can we do.
Huh? You are forgetting the Midwest U.S., Texas, and Florida corridors, to name just a few. Also don't forget the Pittsburgh to Philly connection.
What happened to the Florida High-speed Rail Admendment. And the Southeast High Speed Rail corridor which would have a hub in Atlanta and connect to the florida's one in Jacksonville?
And with Amtrak about to be taken apart, they'd have to pay it ALL.
No, the Fla voters approved it, but Jeb Bush shot it down.
Maybe they could ease some of the corporate welfare, I wish i kept how much money per year this cost in taxes.
What sucks is, they complain about costs, but just like everything, it's only start-up and building costs, what that's done, operating costs shouldn't be anything significant after fares.
Don't get me wrong, I think there is a need for long-haul train service, but this might be a better way to secure its future.
Mark
Mark
Once the line reaches Lake Charles, connecting to New Orleans is just a matter of common sense.
Mark
It'd be great if the Texas, Southeast, Florida plans went though and were all linked up. Only the south has fast trains, haha.
I do love that Trans-texas corridor plan.
Mark
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/ttc/ttc_home.htm
Those three drawings on the left side are awesome
Anyway...
It's also interesting to see the route to El Paso as a priority corridor. El Paso is in a lot of ways a separate state from the rest of Texas, being so remote. I wonder if this is a deliberate attempt to tie the state together.
Mark
On the other corridors, this might happen - for the rest, there's CSX.
I wouldn't want AMTRAK running those routes either.
Chicago's a nice trainride from New York, and there's some gorgeous countryside to ride through as well ... but if they don't want trains running through their precious states, there's STILL VIA rail!
You are narrowing your choices too much. What about the NY-Chicago corridor? That is not unfeasible, especially if you have a high top speed as your goal. What is the top speed you are shooting for? California’s High Speed Rail Program is shooting for a 200-mph top speed—and such a speed makes longer distances more feasible, thereby expands your destinations on your HSR map. East Coast BOS-WAS? They are already linked by the Acela Express, right? 150 mph ought to be fast enough on the NEC, assuming that it ever gets up to that speed (assuming investment in same). Concentrate on markets not already served.
Cheaper than airline tickets is not a necessity—only for vacationers. If the train is time-competitive enough, business people will pay what the traffic will bear—consider what they were paying for Acela Express First Class when it first came out. (Also consider that the Amfleet/AEM7 Metroliners had and continue to have quite a sizeable number of business travelers.)
Multistate plus federal? In that case, federal investment ought to be on the high side. We certainly have the money, if Shrub is ready to dump some $87 billion into Iraq and Afghanistan…
Mark
Granted, their idea of "high speed" is 135 mph, but that's faster than Greyhound at least.
Code-sharing between airlines and rail already exists in Europe. I envision taking it one step further. Imagine for example, that I have to go from Philadelphia to Birmingham. I would take a Delta flight to Atlanta. Then instead of hopping on an uncomfortable puddle jumper, go to a rail terminal right at the airport and climb on a high speed train for the rest of the trip, the train being painted up in Delta's colors because the airline has licensed its name to its rail partner, the way they already license their name to the commuter airlines like ASA.
The line going west from Atlanta would continue on to Dallas. It's main use might not be people travelling between Atlanta and Dallas, but people in Birmingham, Jackson, and Shreveport going to Dallas or Atlanta to catch flights or whatever.
Just an idea.
Mark
Now that doesn't necessarily impact what you're saying, because while this change will bring in some secondary markets for air, it won't bring them all in and rail could still make a decent feeder system. A properly planned system could make a tightly integrated bus-rail-air system viable everywhere. The biggest problem currently is that rails run so infrequently. Even in Chicago, where we have very good commuter rail service, no one takes commuter rail to O'Hare even though there is a nearby station. They don't take it because service is relatively infrequent. And an inter-city system would probably be even less frequent. One interesting use of high-speed rail exists in Oslo, Norway. They have a TGV-style high-speed train through Oslo to the airport, every 10 minutes for all hours the airport is open. When I took it, the train was full, which was surprising. As much as Daley is proud of our "L" lines to O'Hare and Midway, they're nowhere near as nice as the Oslo system even though even Midway has more passenger traffic than Oslo's airport does (17 million travellers in MDW vs. 13.5 million travellers in OSL; 66.5 million for O'Hare). Of course the "L" costs $1.50 to either airport, and the Oslo express train was about $20, depending on the exchange rate, so I guess you get what you pay for.
For the airlines, what the U.S. does matters a lot because US domestic accounts for 40%-50% of all air travel in the world.
Code-sharing could easily exist here in the U.S. - you can buy a United ticket out of Rockford, but your Rockford to Chicago route is handled by a bus line. A big reason travel agents don't push domestic rail here is that Amtrack doesn't offer commissions. Back when commissions were the bread and butter of agencies, they had no incentive to sell it, and now that no one pays commissions, they're not in the habit and there's no demand. Not paying commissions was probably a very bad choice on the part of Amtrak.
The way I envision high-quality HST service is like this:
You would have mainline tracks that connect between major cities. These mainline routes would be a minimum of four tracks and would be built to a rail equivalent of interstate standards- no grade crossings and a barbed wire fence protecting the ROW from unwanted things. The inner two tracks would be rated for speeds over 300 km/h, and the outer tracks for speeds up to 200 km/h (just making up arbitrary numbers). Most likely all new ROW or heavily rebuilt existing ROW would be needed to create the gentle curves and level tracks needed for these speeds. One mainline route would start in Boston then on to NYC, Philly, DC, Raleigh/Durham, Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham, Jackson, Shreveport, New Orleans, and finally Dallas. From DC, another mainline would follow the east coast down to Miami. Another route could do Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis, and St Louis. The cities above would be the major stops and all trains would stop there, but along the routes, you would have commuter stations serving smaller cites that local regional trains would serve using the outer tracks to take passengers to the major stations. Of course, freight trains would be able to use these tracks, too, making shipping goods a lot cheaper and faster. And like the interstates, there could be two track spurs off the four track mainlines to serve medium size cities, like a branch off the Atlanta-Charlotte segment to serve Augusta, GA. These spurs would be rated for lower speeds, but still high for today’s standards.
I also might connect Memphis to Atlanta through Birmingham, which is a more direct route. There's a need along that corridor, as a new interstate is being planned there.
Gil Charmichael was actually pushing for an Atlanta-Dallas HSR connection awhile ago, but I don't know whatever become of his efforts.
I like your ideas of parallel commuter trains and spurs for smaller cities. I find myself travelling to smaller cities quite a bit, and they would save me a lot of annoyint commuter plane rides and car rentals.
Mark
And sadly, neither is going to happen anytime soon. : (
As far as driving a few hours to an airport, I used to do that all the time when I lived in rural Mississippi. It was a real drag. I hated having to drive two hours to New Orleans at 4:00 AM to make a morning flight, and then I had to pay an arm and a leg to park my car for week once I go there. If there had been a practical rail alternative, I would have taken it.
Mark
I was thinking about it today, and I think we could have a seamless national network by have a three tiered rail service:
1) Intercity Express: trains would be high speed and stopping only at major cities, like DC, NYC, Atlanta.
2) Intercity: high speed as well, but serves one corridor bewteen the major stops, like between Atlanta and Jacksonville. It would stop at all the intermediate "local" stations in between.
3) Regional: pretty much the commuter rail systems of today. The MNRR and LIRR would be regional services.
You would be able to buy one ticket to get to your destination served by any of the three services.
Mark
http://www.sehsr.org/
: )
Mark
They already are, look out your window.
San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Possible Seattle would be linked as well.
Never Seatle from Southern Cal. The distance is too great with too few people and too many mountains in between.
Statistics? Broad general claims like that do not wash. What, thousands on both trains and airliners?
And $2-4 billion for the NEC alone? Where do you get that figure, as well as your thirty minutes. What if it was 45 minutes to an hour? Possible with the current rolling stock. Not to mention the fact that you are presuming that it will be solely business travelers using the improved rail service.
One hour off the leg of an NEC trip is a high percentage of time.
I would love to have another method of travel up the whole east coast that got me to my destination on the same day.
Airline: 3 hours
Amtrak:24 hours not including any delays(the autotrain has the best time though, leave 4pm, be in virginia 8am)
greyhound:24 hours-3 days(?!?!?)
Driving: Leave on morning, arrive next morning, all depends on how many breaks u take.
You give me a train that can do the trip in 6-14 hours, I'd use it instead of air, amtrak, greyhound. It won't be a hard sell at all, wouldn't even have to think about it to convince me to use it.
This from the same guy that thinks railroads should keep their pnuematic interlockings and that cars should still have points and ignition coils. You are such a paragon of contradictions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Second, did you ever stop and think that "older" systems might occasionally be better? Or can't you neophile mind grasp that concept.
Railroads are for moving people and freight, not making railfans happy.
If railroads and transit systems followed your prescription, we would be riding behind E-6s Atlantics on the Pennsylvania, steam engines would still be hauling gate cars over Brooklyn, and cable cars would be carrying passngers on Lexington Avenue.
That would be AWESOME.
90 MPH from Washington to Jersey City.
17 tons of coal per trip. All from the tender to the firebox.
On June 11, 1927 E6s Atlantic 460 took a 2 car train from Washington to Manhattan Transfer, 216 miles in 175 minutes flat, with an average speed of 74 miles per hour.
A record that has never been equaled, even with electrics.
Museums are dead. They are completely passive and you learn little if anything from them. In almost all cases there will exist a place where there is little or no advantage to replace some form of older technology. In fact there is usually some niche where it can be preserved in active duty. Railroad Office Car trains are one example.
If railroads and transit systems followed your prescription, we would be riding behind E-6s Atlantics on the Pennsylvania, steam engines would still be hauling gate cars over Brooklyn, and cable cars would be carrying passngers on Lexington Avenue.
Did you read my post? I said that single examples should be preserved for their historical value. I don't want all steam engines, I want A steam engine in active service somewhere. In fact the Reading and Northern had a T-1 4-8-4 hauling coal trains when it wasn't in tourist service, but I think its stored broken these days. I mean how much would it be to ask for the TA to run a married pair of like R-30's occacionally on a late nite Rockaway shuttle.
Places like Strasburg RR, New Hope & Ivyland, Steamtown, East Broad Top RR, Grand Canyon Railway, Durango & Silverton, and their ilk are certainly living, accessible links to the past—they aren’t quite on the order of a Keighley & Worth Valley Railway with daily scheduled revenue service (and that itself a branch line), but they are active, they are in steam and they are quite real. Fat chance that the FRA would countenance daily mainline steam or the like, nor would insurance companies, and certainly not private investors what with the manpower required to maintain steam traction…
As for things to excite the “future engineer kid”? Plenty abound, without him having to become a past engineer kid.
You're a retard.
I mean how much would it be to ask for the TA to run a married pair of like R-30's occacionally on a late nite Rockaway shuttle?
Were you not the one saying that in this time of budget problems, we should not spend money on capital programs? Maintenance of a singlr set of cars unlike any other would be excessively expensive, and serve NO practical purpose.
The MTA already maintains some museum cars, and even runs a few of them. That should be enough.
I want my car to start if the computer gets fried. I don't care how else it works normally, I just want some sort of a backup. As no such dual control cars are marketed today, I'll stick with the older technology until the time when they do.
If a cell phone fails one has the option with utilizing a wide variety of landline alternatives. If your PDA fails you can pull out a pen and a notebook. If the phone conpany advocated eliminating land lines and if office supply stores stopped carrying notepads I would complain about that to.
Now please, explain how I am being contradictory. Oh wait, how could you, you never bother to actually read my arguements.
Furthermore, the ridership gains from turning a crappy corridor into a compeditive one will probably outweigh turning an already popular corridor into an even better one.
and the final bit was about how the focus is shifting from top speed to passenger comfort and services
That is because they have the high-speed end of it nailed and can now concentrate on added passenger amenities. Whereas the USA is still foundering on the speed end of things.
You're right. My wife and I spent our honeymoon in the Redwoods, and believe me there is a LOT of California north of San Francisco. A less ambitious and more practical approach would be a high speed rail line linking Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver.
Mark
Later announcements on the train said bus replacement between Back Bay and Wellington. Sounds like there is something bad going on there. Anyone with more details?
AEM7
The reporter said that a train had "overheated brakes." No further details.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/procure/contracts/cm1265.pdf
This new transit hub is going to happen.
Considering the character of the site and the neighborhood, the exposure of future retail uses, MTA's financial position, and the need to make pedestrian routes clear, does anyone have any opinions about keeping/ditching this old building?
I see value in preserving the building, considering the history you have related. Which tenants are in there now?
As I've said, I think of Downtown as New York's Alstadt. Not that you'd want your whole city to be like it, but you'd like it to be like itself.
If it could be done, that would be my proposal. The Transit Center would occupy the first three stories of the building north of the Corbin Building, with clear space and trusses above. There would be light from the individual windows of the facade of the faux Corbin extension. The trusses would have to be supported between the windows, and perhaps by pillars through the ground in the center.
The Corbin Building itself would be open into the Transit Center as a mezzanine, its wall facing the interior of the block removed.
Above the third floor, but below the roofline of the Corbin Building, you'd have flexible office space with broad floors. Is it about 12 stories? Over the whole block, the nine stories of office space is 9.0 FAR (it the zoning lets you do that). You get about 15 I believe (ther e is a plaza bonus too -- would the Transit Center count?) I'd have to look up the specific figures. Let's say you get 18 FAR, the absolute max. You put a 40 percent tower set back over the base, with 23 additional stories, for a total of 35, plus mechanical space.
I'd program the building for "outposts" the New York offices of companies primarily located elsewhere in the country, or elsewhere in the world. The base would have offices and conference rooms. The upstairs would have furnished corporate apartments and hotel rooms, for staff visiting the city or posted here for a couple of years. Expat City.
As for the Transit Center itself, one of the few places to get an affordable haircut in Lower Manhattan is underground. In fact, I go to a barber in the basement of the Corbin Building. Capitalizing on this market, I'd put a "barber's row" in the Corbin Building, with a dozen or so small to medium storefronts fitted out for barber shops. Barbers from around Downtown could be encouraged to move it. With the unlimited ride card, it would be no problem for those anywhere south of Chambers to hop a train (any train) over to "barber's row" for a choice of haircuts on their lunch hour.
To try to get a little back on topic, the only transit access would seem to be from the downtown Whitney (below John), meaning you could come in through the gutted Corbin (FANTASTIC arches) and still leave people in their offices and apartments where they are. Also save yourself a hell of a NIMBY problem. It's not like MTA needs to get daylight from John St. -- there isn't any.
Waste of a site. All glass is wrong for the "Canyon of heros," and why not sell the air-rights above?
(The Corbin looks like the era of the Monadnock and heavily detailed, but framed, I suspect, and only nine stories or so.)
Very well, then extend the base of the building with the Corbin-redux facade just nine stories.
If you think it should, write to MTA and say so.
If you don't want to go through MTA public affairs, why not write to the new head of MTA Capital?
You assume wrong. Write an intelligent letter, and you could be surprised by what comes back to you.
My letters have been routed to and answered by the Vice President of Subways, the Chief Engineer, the Deputy Director of Govt and Community Relations, and others. And the letters' content indicated that somebody took the time to read what I wrote and answer it.
The problem with excessive cynicism, Mike, is that
1) it assumes that everybody you want to write to is crooked or indifferent (false)
2) everybody you want to write to is incompetent (false)
Sometimes, it also reflects the arrogance of the cynic more than anything else.
Treat people like that, and you deserve whatever you get. But go in constructively, and you'll be treated with respect in return.
If you want to write to Kalikow, go ahead. I would write to Mysore Nagaraja, who is the chief engineer for subways, and who is the most likely person with the expertise to answer questions like yours.
If they save the Corbin building, it will require extensive underpinning and a slower and more costly construction process. Add $50 million to the price of construction (my speculation - I could easily be way off on that figure).
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I imagine that part of the Fulton Transit center could open and part would be delayed in opening due to the preservation work on the Corbin Building.
As usual, and I've said this before: let MTA know how you feel. The agency needs and deserves to hear from you.
Why not continue the new Dey Street passageway eastward along John Street, below all intersecting lines, with connections to the 4/5, J/M/Z, and 2/3, and perhaps with additional passageways to the A/C?
Currently, getting past the J/M/Z is a major hassle, and I don't see anything in these plans that will change that.
Indeed. I can only imagine that the money isn't there. They really ought to have a wide underground passageway to Water St. The sidewalks on Fulton, John, etc., are miserable in anything other than perfect weather.
And as for finding a way either under or over where the J/M/Z runs directly over the A/C -- how would you do that? Lift the whole concourse at that point to grade level? You'd have to drop them to street level again, quickly, and I don't see how you'd do it without cutting off Nassau Street. Although I think it is critical if you are going to make it a serious concourse -- I'm tired of the "walking roller coaster" over the Nassau Line.
If a new passageway is built under John Street, it can be at about the same level as the IND a block away. The IND manages to pass under the BMT, so the passageway wouldn't have trouble. Escalators and elevators would lead directly down to the passageway from each platform passing overhead.
Personally, rather than an "O" (with the crossbars at Fulton and John), I'd almost like to see an "H" (with the east-west crossbar in the middle of the block), and not have to go deep under John or take the up-downs of Fulton. Mid-block you could have a huge daylit space all the way down to the platforms -- even bring winter sun in over the top of the Corbin -- and leave the block fronts available for retail development.
Robert
Robert
-Pelham
Robert
Some Superiors can take "ride with me" to mean "ride with me in muh cab".
Robert
Robert
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
So, why not have "subwayolatry" in your movie ?
I was born and raised in San Francisco, then moved to NYC after graduating from college in 1973. I lived in NYC and other parts of the area for about 15 years. I rode the system almost daily during its worst years, but even in that state, it always impressed me as being an awesome engineering and sociological marvel.
I don't have the same passion for the "redbirds" as many here do, but I was extremely fond of the "arnines". My favorite cars are the R46, and I deeply miss their original "brand new" condition.
You'll find all sorts of fun folks here, with all manner of wit and wisdom. Don't be afraid of jumping in to discussions or asking questions. Just don't get or take anything personally. Keep a cup and boots handy and you'll be ready for anything. :)
Again, welcome.
Just remember your name is common here (alike to the Webmaster) so,
just cuz' someone says "Dave" it DOESN'T necessarily refer to you~!
How's the weather, southern 1?
~W
Robert
David
Who or what decides if there will be a center platform in a station and passengers can stand on the left or right waiting for a train (with tracks on the left and right of the platform), or if there will be a platform on each side of the station (with tracks in the center?)
This question is in reguards to underground stations that ARE NOT transfer stations (pentagon, rosslyn, metro center etc etc). and that are not elevated since these stations have center platforms. I'm just wondering about "regular" stations. I hope this questions make sence lol. Thanks.
construction constraints such as available area, geology, hydrology, utilities, existing structures
anticipated passenger volume
aesthetics
community/civic/cultural considerations
cost
IMO, constraints and volume are probably primaries in determining what to propose. If a station is expected to have extremely heavy volume, side platforms may be chosen over an island to favor safety concerns by reducing congestion and making it easier for customers to choose the correct platform for their train. The Smithsonian station is an example of this because of it's heavy utilization by tourists who are likely to be unfamiliar with the system. It wouldn't be too difficult for a family traveling with small children to become disoriented or separated on a busy summer weekend afternoon. An island platform would probably be favored if the alignment has to go under a narrow street or other passage.
I hope that sheds some light on it. I'm sure some other folks will chime in with better thoughts. :)
Sean@Temple
(I perfer island platforms)
You are confusing building methods with architectural design. Cut-and-cover has been used in New York to build both kinds of stations. The type of station is determined by service demand, requirements imposed by the street and existing buildings, etc.
"Shielded sections have round tunnels and cut and cover sections are square."
You can build a round tunnel section with a cut and cover technique. Historically, perhaps, it wasn't done but you must remember that construction methods have advanced a great deal in the 99 years since the NYC sbway was begun.
In an ideal world, all stations would be island. Islands mean that both tracks share stairs, escalators and elevators. This is cheaper since on sides you must duplicate each thing. Another thing is that islands make it easier for passnefers to switch to the other track if they missed their stop. Under/overpasses wouldn't be needed.
Of course there are some exceptions, but it is true for nearly all subway systems that you'll find deep bores with islands and sides for cut and covers. With transfer stations like WMATA has, you simply can't have two island platforms perpendicular because then you only have a small square in which to install stairs and elevators to connect the two, it would also take up all the platform space. At least one needs to be side so the every double track line has at least two sets of stairs to the other double track line.
Which parts of NYCT are island platforms that were built using cut and cover?
R-32.
:^P
BTW, this is my hair color. I have the receipt to prove it. :^P
Among other things, it saved a lot on annual painting costs and reduced each aircraft's base (empty) take-off weight by at least several hundred pounds. Not a bad move, I'd say.
Would this be possible?
"Mr conductor, I am very worried that if we do not get to Alice Springs on time, I just might be into labor right here on the
train."
"Madam, you should have thought about that when you boarded, being that you are in this condition."
"But sir, when I boarded this train, I wasn't in this condition!"
====================================================================
In the early 20th century, there were many coal mines in the Canadian Rockies, including some in what is now Banff National
Park.
On Saturday nights, many miners would ride into Banff and have a cup of tea or glass of lemonade, or just possibly, something
stronger.
One Saturday, an inebriated miner missed the last train home. He wandered across to the yard, found an engine in steam,
backed it out onto the main line, and drove it to his mine, stopped it, went to the bunk-house, and fell asleep.
He was charged with "theft of a locomotive" by the Canadian Pacific Rly., but he couldn't remember a thing about it.
The trial went like this:
Defense counsel: Was the engine on CPR property before my client moved it?
CPR: Yes.
Def: Was it on CPR tracks when he left it?
CPR: Yes.
Def: Did it at any time leave CPR tracks?
CPR: No.
Def: Then where is the theft?
Magistrate: Case dismissed.
The local towers are almost all on the IND.
Master Towers (and their satellites)
as well as Interlocking Towers
The A Division (former IRT)
The towers in the A Division are all considered to be Master Towers
(except for those noted as satellites and those that only control a yard)
240 St Tower - located in the yard
- controls from 242 St south to the switches south of 103 St that govern
the moves into and out of M Track. Also controls both 240 Yard and 137
Yard.
137 St Satellite - located at north end
of northbound platform - can control the area both north and south of 137
St.
239 St Yard - controls only the
yard and yard leads. I am not sure if this will be taken over by Unionport,
but I doubt it.
Unionport Master
Tower - located in Unionport Yard - currently controls the mainline
switches south of 219 St and the mainline switches between 238 St and 241
St (formerly controlled by 239 St Mainline) and the switches in Unionport
Yard (east of the mainline). Eventually it will control from south
of Jackson Ave to White Plains and Dyre Ave.
E.180 Tower
- located between 3 Track and M Track just north of the station - controls
from south of Jackson Ave to south of Bronx Park East, as well as the entire
Dyre Ave line. Also controls the yard at E.180 St (west of the mainline).
Will eventually be replaced by Unionport Tower.
Freeman St Satellite - located at north
end of southbound platform - can control the area just north of Freeman
St.
205 St Tower - located in Mosholu
Yard - controls the Jerome Ave line from Woodlawn to north of 167 St, as
well as Mosholu Yard.
Westchester Master Tower -located
in Westchester Yard - controls the Pelham line from Pelham Bay Park to
just south of 3rd Ave/138 St, as well as Westchester Yard.
Mott Ave Tower
- located on the mezzanine level between the upper (4) and lower (2/5)
levels - controls from north of 149St/Grand Concourse on both levels
to south of 138 St on the Lexington Ave line and south of the station on
the White Plains line.
Lenox Tower - located at south end
of 148 St station - Controls from south of 110 St/ Lenox Ave to Lenox Terminal,
as well as Lenox Yard.
Times Square Mainline - located
on the mezzanine level at the south end of the station - Controls Broadway
from north of 96 St to north of Chambers St. 96
St Satellite - located at north end of station, next to southbound
fare control area - can control the 96 St interlocking.
Grand Central - located between
3 Track and 4 track south of the station - controls from north of 125 St
to south of Brooklyn Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge Loop and Yard, as well as
1 Track and 3 Track of the Shuttle.
125 St Satellite - can control north and
south of 125 St
Brooklyn Bridge Satellite - can control
loop and yard.
Nevins Tower
- located between 2 and 3 Track - Controls from south of Rector St and
south of both Wall Sts to north of Atlantic Ave.
Bowling Green Satellite - can control
the crossover between 1 & 4 Tracks south of Rector St, the diamond
crossover between Wall St and Bowling Green and both the inner and outer
loop at South Ferry.
Utica Tower
- located on mezzanine outside fare control at south end of station
- Controls from south of Eastern Parkway to Flatbush Ave and Utica
Ave. Flatbush Ave usually controls the
interlocking just north of the station.
Livonia Tower - located in Livonia
Yard - Controls from north of Junius St to New Lots Station and Livonia
Yard.
Times Square Queens - located at
north end of Flushing Line platform - Controls from Times Square to north
of Hunters Point Ave.
Queenboro Master - located south
of station - Controls IRT/BMT crossover (plus a lot of B div)
111 St - located south of 111 St
- controls from Main St to south of 33rd St.
Corona Yard - located in the yard
- controls all of Corona Yard and the yard leads.
B Division - (former BMT and IND)
There are a handful of Master Towers in the B Division, but this is
still the home of the single Interlocking Tower.
Master Towers
207 St Master Tower - located in
the yard - Controls from south of 168 St to 207 St Station; 207 Yard
leads north of Dyckman St and 174 St Yard.
168 St Satellite - can control 174 St
Yard and 168 St interlocking.
59 Master
- located north of northbound platform at 59 St - controls from north of
145 St to south of 59 St.
DeKalb Master
Tower - located on mezzanine behind token booth - Controls Lawrence
St interlocking on B'way local line; Gold St interlocking (between DeKalb
and the Manhattan Bridge Portals; DeKalb Ave to north of Pacific
St on Fourth Ave and to south of Prospect Park on the Brighton line, as
well as all of the Franklin Shuttle. Also has control of the wheel detectors
on both sides of the bridge.
Joe Murphy Master Tower
- located in 36 St/38 St Yard - Controls Fourth Av Line from north of 36
St to 95 St; West End line from 36 St to Ninth Ave, including connection
to NYCHRR and 36 St/38 St Yard; Sea Beach interlocking at Sixth Ave.
Stillwell Tower
(Tower B) - located in Coney Island Yard - Controls Stillwell Yard
and Coney Island Yard, but not Culver (City, Avenue X) Yard; Sea Beach
line from Stillwell to north of Kings Highway; Brighton line from Stillwell
to south of Kings Highway; Culver interlocking south of West 8th St (part
of Stillwell Station - allows choice of pocket). When signal upgrade is
complete, will also control West End from Stillwell to 62nd St (possibly
with a satellite at Bay Parkway).
City Hall
Tower - located at north end of station - Controls the Broadway
BMT line from Lexington Ave/59 St to the Nassau St cut in the Montague
tubes, as well as the mainline switches south of Broad St.
57/7 Satellite -located at south end of
southbound platform - can operate interlockings north and south of station.
This satellite is active for the duration of Q termation at 57/7.
Essex Tower-
located at Essex St opposite side of J1 track from platform (next to old
trolley terminal) - Controls Nassau St line from the Brooklyn side of the
Williamsburg Bridge (wrong-rail blind trips and normal direction wheel
detectors) to north of Broad St; the interlocking south of Broad St between
R3 and R4 Tracks (this might be controlled by City Hall - the schematic
is kind of vague); the Sixth Ave line from north of B'way/Lafayette to
south of Delancey St.
East New York Master Tower
- located in east New York Yard - Controls the Jamaica line from
Marcy Ave to Jamaica Center (lower level); the Myrtle Ave line from Myrtle
to Metropolitan Ave; the Canarsie line from south of Broadway Junction
to north of Livonia Ave; East New York yard leads; the Linden Yard lead
south of Livonia Ave and the switch between the lead from the Livonia Ave
el and the Canarsie lead.
Parsons/Archer Satellite normally controls
from north of 121 St to Jamaica Center.
QueensboroMaster
Tower- located south of the station on
the structure - Currently controls the IRT/BMT crossover; the Astoria line
from the 11 St cut to Ditmars Blvd; the 63rd St Connector from south of
Lexington Ave/63 St to 36 St, including all entrances to D5 Track; and
Crosstown line south of Court Square. When completed, this fully computerized
Tower will control all of the above plus - the Crosstown line from south
of Bedford/Nostrand to Queens Plaza; the Queens Blvd line from south of
Ely Ave to north of Roosevelt Ave (possibly farther, I don't remember);
the entire length of the Flushing line. Ina ll actuality, the model board
shows all of this trackage, but since the controls are all computerized,
it's very hard to tell the extent of control.
21 St Satellite - can control the area
from north of 21 St to south of Lexington Ave/63 St
Liberty Junction - located on the
structure between K1 and F4 Tracks - controls from Liberty Junction to
both Lefferts Blvd and Broad Channel.
Lefferts Satellite - located at the north
end of the platform - controls Lefferts Terminal
Howard Beach Satellite - located behind
the station wall of the northbound platform - can control the area north
and south of the station.
Bedford Park Master Tower - to be
located on mezzanine level at south end of station - this contract has
just been let, so the tower itself doesn't exist yet although some preliminary
work has been done at the station. When completed it will control the Concourse
Line from 205 St to south of 161 St, putting six interlocking towers out
of business.
Interlocking Towers
Unless otherwise noted, these towers control only the interlocking closest
to their location.
Canarsie Line
8th Ave/14 St - at south end of platform
in Dispatcher's Office
3rd Ave/14 St - at north end of northbound
platform
Bedford Ave - at south end of platform
Myrtle Ave - at south end of platform
Rockaway Pkway - at north end of platform
- controls from south of 105 St to terminal and yard leads
Crosstown Line
Bedford/Nostrand - north of northbound
platform on opposite side of E2 Track
Nassau Ave - north end of northbound platform
These will be taken over by Queensboro Master when signal upgrade is
complete.
West End Line
62nd St - south end of northbound platform
Bay Parkway
- south end of northbound platform
Tower D (Bay 50th) - located behind northbound
platform wall - controls all switches on either side of Bay 50th St station
and the switch on the leads closest to the tower
These three towers wil be taken over by Stillwell Master when signal
upgrade is complete.
Culver Line
Tower C - located in CI Yard between southbound
mainline and yard lead - controls Ave X, yard leads and Culver Yard.
Kings Highway - located at south end of
southbound platform
Church Ave - located at south end of southbound
platform - controls from south of Church to south of Ditmas and Church
Ave Yard
4th Ave -
at north end of northbound platform
Bergen Street
- at north end of upper level northbound platform
Jay St -
at north end of northbound platform
York St - south of south end of platform
6th Ave Line
5th Ave -
south end of southbound (upper level) platform - controls split/merge between
6th Ave and 8th Ave service and diamond crossover north of Lexington Ave
50 St (Rockefeller Center) - at north
end of northbound platform - controls Rock Center and diamond crossover
south of 57 St. This tower is no longer manned, resulting in the wonderful
"What you punch is what you get" admonition to Train Operators. Any wrong
line-ups here are solely on the TO.
34 St/6 Ave - located north of northbound
platform
W. 4th St -
at south end of southbound lower level platform - controls all switches
north and south of the station.
Concourse Line
205 St - at south end of platform
Bedford Park - at south end of southbound
platform
Fordham Rd - at south end of southbound
platform
Tremont Ave - at south end of southbound
platform
167 St - north of southbound platform
161 St - at south end of southbound platform
Queens Boulevard
Line
179 St - north end of northbound platform
- controls from north of 169 to terminal and relay tracks
Parsons Blvd - north end of northbound
platform
Parsons/Archer
- north of station on lower level -controls both P/A interlockings as well
as Jamaica/Van Wyck and Van Wyck Blvd. Lower level interlocking can be
remotely operated by ENY Master
Union Turnpike
- north end of northbound platform - controls north and south of station
as well as the yard lead up to Jamaica Yard portal
Continental
Ave - north end
of northbound platform - controls north and south of station as well as
the relay tracks and yard lead up to Jamaica Yard portal
Roosevelt
Ave - north end of northbound platform
Queens Plaza
- north end of northbound platform - controls north and south of station,
11 St cut and Ely Ave
These last two will be taken over by Queensboro Master when signal
upgrade is complete.
8th Ave Line
World Trade Center - north end of platform
Chambers St (8th Ave) - north end of platform
Canal St - south end of southbound platform
30 St/8th Ave - located south of 34 St
on the southbound side near the crossover between A1 and A3 Tracks
42 St/8 Ave - I admit to confusion on
this one. The schematic shows two towers - one north of the northbound
platform and one south of the southbound platform. I think that the northern
one, which is manned, controls all switches north of the station, while
the southern one controls the merge of the lower level track onto the mainline.
Fulton St/ Rockaways Line
Court St (Museum) - north end of platform
Hoyt St - south end of the abandoned southbound
platform
Lafayette Ave - south end of southbound
platform
Utica Ave - south end of southbound platform
Broadway/ENY - south end of southbound
platform
Euclid Ave - south end of southbound platform
- controls north and south of station as well as the first diamond crossover
on A5/A6 yard leads (used for relays)
Pitkin Yard - located in the yard - controls
the yard, yard leads and mainline from north of Grant Ave to north of 88
St
Rockaway Park - located at north end of
platform - controls Rockaway Park Yard and Hammels Wye, as well as the
approaches to the South Channel Swing Bridge. Hammels
Wye Satellite - located between F4 and F3A Tracks - can control
all interlockings associated with the Wye.
Mott Ave (Far Rockaway) - at north end
of platform
Yards
207 Yard - controlled by Tower A (south end of yard) and Tower B (north-west
corner)
Concourse Yard - controlled from Tower located in Yard
Fresh Pond Yard - controls yard leads and Metropolitan Ave
All other yards not mentioned somewhere above are hand-throw yards
and are NOT controlled by a tower.
Notes
All of these single interlocking towers cannot necessarily be seen
from the platform, eve though they are listed as being at the end of a
platform. They are also not necessarily manned 24/7.
The model boards at the master towers and the terminal Dispatchers
are capable of "seeing" a larger area than they actually control.
Sometime in the future, we will see more Master Towers springing up.
My guesses for some of them:
Canarsie line Master Tower - will control the entire length of the
Canarsie Line - will be made necessary for CBTC operation.
Fulton St Master Tower - to control the Fulton St line from Hoyt/Schermerhorn
to north of 88 St.
Stillwell Master Expansion - to control the Culver line from Kings
Highway to Stillwell Ave.
Jay St Master - to control from Church Ave/Culver to York St.
Jamaica Master - to control from 179 to the eastern end of Queensboro
Master.
Queensboro Master Expansion - to control from 5th Ave to Ely Ave.
59 Master Expansion - to control from 30 St/ 8th Ave to 59 St and to
control Rockefeller Center to 59 St.
West 4 St Master - to control from 34/6 to W. 4 St and W.4 St to Chambers
St /WTC
Here's the underbody shot, I apologize for the fuzziness, but I'm trying to take the pic under the trolley, kneeling on one leg, trying not to bump anything that might be hazardous, in very less than ideal lighting!
Anyway, the rear of the car is to the top of the photo, the front is at the bottom. Clearly visible should be the rear truck with the two longitudinally mounted AC traction motors (notice the centrifugel flow fans for cooling). The disc brake clearly visible on the left axle, and right after the disk brake is the gear box for the rear-most axle. According to the foreman these cars will barely use the disk brakes, most of the braking will be done with the dynamic and regenerative braking the AC motors provide. Finally at the very bottom of the picture is one of the 4 (IIRC) boxes that house the Kiepe IGBT switching equipment.
Two other photos taken today:
Close, but no cigar! This trolley was set on something else, but wound up having to go through nearly it's entire roll to get to 13-City Hall, I took a good dozen pics, of which this is possibly the best. It was great to watch the 23, the 50, the 53, the 56 and the 60 go floating past...
This one's from after my shop visit, not only did I lose my daypass, but I got on the trolley going the wrong way... Fortunately an understanding T/O not only let me board, but also gave me a transfer to ride the next trolley back to the city. So this is a pic of the trolley that followed mine, the concrete supports for the passenger islands on Island Ave make for great tripods!
-Robert King
a) Not grounded, not dead.
b) Streetcar wire is much stronger than it looks (they hope).
I can't say this is something I've ever done. I'm not making any plans to change that either.
-Robert King
What I'd like to know is if there were ever any absent minded trolley bus fans that did the streetcar wire trick, except hang one arm from each of the two trolley bus wires without thinking. That's something an absentminded trolleybus fan would only be able to do once.
-Robert King
Kicking the third rail with your "baby booties" was just the FIRST lesson. You would have LOVED the old IND "drill motors" ... picture THIS ... an Arnine CHASSIS with a cab-like compartment on ONE end of the car and this HUGE spool with wire on it. You'd walk out, connect up a gator clip to the third rail, then roll out onto UNPOWERED track, fetch some cars and watch the biggie spring-loaded spool pull the wire back in as you reversed back towards where there WAS third rail. Guys and gals on the road don't do this kinda stuff anymore as far as I know. Though the "yellow wood" exercise if you have to isolate a car to do the knifeswitch is still part of the repertoir. :)
As I've often said, playing motorman sounds like fun ... UNTIL YOU HAVE TO DO IT FOR A CHECK. Heh.
Chuck Greene
I kinda missed the Open House today at Elmwood, I uhhh kinda slept all day. I could kick myself for missing such a thing, totally inexcusable! Anyone else here manage to make it to the shop to see 2320?
Oh well, I'm gonna scrounge up something to eat, then go out and drown my sorrows by taking many many pictures of the Subway-Surface cars at 40th St portal!
R-142 overshadowing R-62:
2 R-62a's:
Shiny R-62a:
And one B/W pic...
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWpeak_v2.1.pdf
[Thanks in advance to first person who turns this into a live link.]
And now the off-peak map. Wow, that was tricky, but I think it just about works. In a nice easy world for map designers, daytime, evenings, and weekends services would be pretty similar, but not for the MTA. J/M/Z and N/W services are particularly messy. Anyway, take a look at this.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWoffpeak _v1.pdf
Its not until you have to make a diagrammatic map that you realise just how varied the services are. The MTA map goes into all of these of course, but you really need to read it carefully to take it all in. I am sure that I have got lots wrong.
Anyway, take both maps, print out, glue back to back, and you have a pocket map of the New Yourk subway, giving 24/7 service details, all in an area the same size as the London Underground map. I think I will go and lie down now.
LINK ONE
LINK TWO
Peace,
ANDEE
Peak and Off-Peak
One problem though, the F N and Q do not go to Coney Island now.
If I were doing this full time and being paid for it, you would get monthly issues and up to date engineering information, but I'm not, so you won't :-)
1. Eastern Pkwy-Bklyn Museum stop on the (2)(3) and night (4).
2. Transfer between Franklin Av (2)(3)(4)<5> and Botanic Gdn (S).
Bob Sklar
Station misspellings:
6 Line: "E 117 St-Parkchester" should be "E 177 St"
M Line: "Knicherbocker" should be "Knickerbocker"
N Line: "88 St" should be "86 St"
If you wanted to be obsessive, you might make this and the Lex/59 a single instead of a double line, to show the passage being outside fare control.
For your next assignment, produce a map of the London Undergound designed to look like a NY Subway map (8-) ! (The deep tubes would be the A Division and the subsurface lines the B Division, of course.)
I've printed out a very nice double-sided cardboard folder and sent it (recorded delivery) to the MTA (Customer relations, 7th floor). You never know. I do know that the MTA did approach LT informally for a possible diagrammatic map, but were turned down. [Source, someone high up in the design of LT maps.]
A semi-geographically distorted Underground map, with an enlarged centre and shrunk suburbs, showing major streets and tourist attractions, roughly London bus map sized, and showing all lines, would look really nice. What computer software do MTA use? Maybe the map departments of LT and MTA should go on an exchange visit one year.
That would be much too sensible an idea for either of those bureacracies (8-) ! Although I have some qualified optimism about TfL now that it is actually answerable to the Greater London government at last. The old LT was at least as bad as the MTA - arrogant and incompetent on the whole, and totally unwilling to admit that any other transit authority in the UK ever had any good ideas. They were bigger so they must know better, was their idea.
MTA maps are designed by an outside contractor, but I believe thay are maintained in-house. From poking around the PDF files, it looks like they're using Illustrator or an equivalent.
Uh, since when does a citizen of Great Britain call himself "English"? I always thought youse called yourselves British.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWpeak_v2-2.pdf
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWoffpeak _v1-2.pdf
Keep those corrections coming. This is really really helpful, especially spelling mistakes and missing stations.
I think the diamond services should be presented more clearer. If a
person, who doesn't know the subway, uses this map, will board a wrong
train or will search for the line, which stops at the skip-stop stations,
but there's only one running - confusing.
You need to use this map slightly differently from the MTA one in order to get it to work. For example, if you are on the Lexington Avenue Line during the rush hour, and want to get from 14 St to 77 St, look up or down the line to see which services to avoid (the arrow boxes defining this express zone are at Wall St and 125 St) or look at the services grid at the bottom, and under "Manhattan" see that the 4 and 6 travel express and so it is a 6 train that you are after. Outside of rush hour, flip the map over (if you have printed it double sided) it is the same principle but easier because there are fewer express services.
Too much clutter on the map makes it hard to use, except for seasoned travellers.
68th Street is a local station, and Hunter College is just a secondary station name, not the primary name.
Your service guide doesn't distinguish between skip-stop and true express service.
The F runs express in Queens south of Continental.
The E runs express middays north of Continental.
The late night R runs express between Pacific and 36th in both directions.
The late night 4 does not stop at Clark or Hoyt.
The J terminates at Chambers rather than Broad on weekends but, oddly enough, not on weeknights.
When the W runs express, it still stops at 49th. The Q doesn't.
Looking forward to the next update!
I don't need to distinguish between skip-stop and true express on the service guide. An express train simply skips more stops. No one using this map should end up on the wrong train using this map.
What do you mean by "Continental"? Can't find it using a word search on the MTA map.
Why oh why does the MTA come up with exceptions such as W stopping at 49th but not Q. Is it something to do with the track layout? I bet this catches out people.
LOL @ Greenberger for saying "Continental" instead of "Forest Hills, 71 Av".
Why oh why does the MTA come up with exceptions such as W stopping at 49th but not Q. Is it something to do with the track layout?
Yes, it has to do with the track layout, and how the (Q) terminates at 57/7, and other stuff.
Continental is 71st-Continental Avenues. That's what appears on the signs and what used to appear on the map. NYCT is trying to phase out the name, for no particular reason; I use it anyway.
The W stops at 49th for two reasons. First, Q trains terminate at 57th in the station and often have to wait outside for access, and switching the W to the local track north of 34th allows it to get by without waiting in line. Second, 49th is an extremely busy station, especially among Queens passengers; switching the W to the local track south of 57th would only cram Astoria-bound passengers onto the N (and the R, with a transfer).
Traditionally, only trains that terminate at 57th bypass 49th.
That's why the station names of skip-stop lines have the line
number/letter. It's clear to understand.
Not a big deal either way, though.
I haven't done anything about 75 Av and Briarwood, as I am getting conflicting information between the downloadable map. the MTA website, and subtalkers. Help!
Anyway, here are the links:
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWpeak_v2-3.pdf
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/%7emjr/NYCSWoffpeak_v1-3.pdf
Rush hours and middays, the E runs express and the F runs local. Evenings, nights, and weekends, everything makes local stops, since the express tracks are used for layups.
I'll let someone else fill you in on the exact times.
By the way, the current downloadable map refers to additional E rush hour services to Jamaica 179 St. Do these really happen? If so where do they stop?
Some trains run local between Continental and 179th; others run express. I haven't figured out which is which.
Draw the stations as all-stops and put a black diamond behind the station
name. At the "key to map symbols" you add the description for the
black diamond: "Trains labeled with diamonds skip these stations"
PS: The Queens Blvd looks very Tube map like - Coooool! I like it!
Am currently thinking about Metropolitan/Jubilee Line treatment for 2/3/4/5 in Brooklyn. less space there, but something might be possible.
On the roll sign is currently only the 11 an other purple sign.
The 8 is green, i think the 10 also.
Plus if you really wanna get picky, some E's go to 179 St, many 5s go to Utica Avenue, and most 7 local trains end at 111 St (or Willets Pt on game days at Shea Stadium or during the US Open). Also, the Rock Park A trains end at 59th Street.
I like the off-peak version of the map...it's very interesting.
Re other points. So picky that the map only mentions one of them in the small print and shows none of them on the map. The London Underground map is the same in this way. A few trains do run from Watford to Rickmansworth, but this route has not been shown for decades. Also, before the Jubilee Line opened, the Met used to stop at Intermediate stations between Finchley Road and Wembley.
Moral of this story is to check the front of the train and listen to on-train advertisements whichever map you are using.
The reverse is the case, Max. The Manny B is due to reopen within a few months from now (Feb 04??) but the Stillwell Avenue station rebuilding will take longer. So the two groups of changes will happen at the same time *only* if the Manny B is delayed!
Do you have a date for Coney Island
But here's the plan:
B: Weekdays only. As now north of 34th, 6th Avenue express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton express.
D: As now north of 34th, 6th Avenue express, Manhattan Bridge, DeKalb bypass, 4th Avenue express, West End local. Nights and weekends, will probably stop at DeKalb and might run local on 4th Avenue (these are my guesses).
N: Astoria local, 60th Street tube, Broadway express (switching at 34th), Manhattan Bridge, DeKalb bypass, 4th Avenue express, Sea Beach local. Weekends, local north of Canal. Nights, full local via tunnel.
Q: Same as current circle-Q.
W: Weekdays only. Astoria local, 60th Street tube, Broadway local to Whitehall.
Note that the N and W swap roles in Manhattan.
A few months later, the F and Q will resume service to Stillwell, and the N will return the following year (after the West End platform is reconstructed).
I was thinking it might be an Asian city.
Since last week Amtrak has had Track 1 OOS to install concrete ties between Holmes and Grundy on the NEC, necessitating that eb SEPTA R7 Trenton locals run on Track 2 between Holmesburg and Bristol. The concrete ties on Track 1 stop just west of Holmes, and since they were not at Holmes today, they are working from Grundy south. Was up at Levittown this morning and the ties have already been laid, they are reported west of Bristol currently. They have changed the clips and dampers used to attach the rails to the ties.
Also an interesting problem popped up yesterday. SEPTA 733 had a handicapped passenger at Cornwells Heights, but since they were on Track 2, there was no way to pick them up. CETC6 advised them to tell the passenger to go to Trenton (Duh! Where do you think he was going????), but the enterprising crew carried the person on board and departed with minimal delay.
SEPTA 733 had a handicapped passenger at Cornwells Heights, but since they were on Track 2, there was no way to pick them up. CETC6 advised them to tell the passenger to go to Trenton (Duh! Where do you think he was going????), but the enterprising crew carried the person on board and departed with minimal delay.
Very admirable gesture by the crew. After all, mini-high platforms cannot extend over out-of-service tracks. That is one good thing about wheelchair lifts such as are featured on gallery cars of the like used by Metra and other commuter agencies—they could indeed be applied to trains on rail systems that use two types of platform on the same line (and it is a true pity that they are not—perhaps the ADA ought to have specified such a device to be installed on dual-platform trains).
This reminds me of the days before Elizabeth NJ got its high platforms or even its elevators—a good friend of mine who is wheelchair-bound used to avail of the muscle power of myself plus a few other friends to both get him up the steps to the station and to get him up the steps of the end-door vestibules of Arrow IIIs. Mini-highs are no panacea at stations that retain low platforms, nor on multi-track systems…
"So this is the butt plug, essential for that midnight tour after having eaten a bean burrito dinner."
Besides ... NORM did all the REAL work while Villa just flapped his gums ...
(This is due to a traumatic experience in 1971 when a D train I was operating was diverted to Lawrence and up to Essex ... not going that diverge EVER again)
LIVE FROM BRANFORD, IT'S SUBWAY NIIIGHHHHT!
It's Subway Night Live, with your cast:
Big Lou, Thurston, Jeff Rosen, Sparky, Pete the Pole, BMT Man, and the Arrow III MU and the BERA Bandstands.
Special guest, Selkirk
And the hosting car for tonight:
((((((((( 1689 )))))))))
10 minute wait - C - 1 minute wait - B - 10 minute wait - C ...
And this is during rush hour! The 1/9 runs on 3 minute headways, and don't even mention the 6!
Why is this? The IND riders get the shaft, and I'm just sick of it!
And don't even get me started on night/weekend service!
Bellyaching and kvetching are the domain of the Straphangers Campaign site. The intended nycsubway.org audience is enthusiasts of rail transit, not detractors.
It's not like I'm talking about the latest model of cars or something.
Latest model car would actually be more on-topic. Did you see those shining new R-166's unveiled at Hornell at the weekend?
AEM7
To begin with, who are the "customers" closest to CPW? Well, squirrels on one side of the street, "luxury apartment dwellers" on the other who'd just as likely "cab it" if they don't have a "private car." So, historically aside from the American Museum of Natural History, there's never BEEN that much ridership there, compared to the Broadway IRT, right in the middle of where subway riders live.
And the more people that walk away from the IND, when the traffic checkers show up to do head counts, there's less need for improvements to service. If upper west side people started protesting by filling up the stations to crush loads, there WOULD be more trains. Pretty simple there.
Although Unca Selkirk also enjoys a good conspiracy theory too - the IND's gone STRAIGHT TO HELL ever since the Chrystie connector opened up and those BOOBS who run the BMT got a chance to screw up ANOTHER railroad. Neener-neener. :)
I guess this begs another question then: Why did they build a line right on CPW? Now that I think about it...it seems sorta silly. Columbus would've been a vastly better option.
But for folks who want to hijack those expresses, a good place to start the campaign might be *USING* the IND ... :)
Makes sense to me.
Elias
No, but we did just start carring some nice North Dakota Country Apple Wine, and Some nice Cinnamon Apple Wine. We will also have some Chokecherry wine as soon as that becomes available.
They also make Rhubarb Wine; Apple Rhubarb Wine, and Apple Jalopeno wine.
: ) Elias
That wine list makes me wanna hop on a freight and skedaddle out there.
: ) Elias
Now to try to answer your questions as best as I can, during the time of the construction, Columbus Ave. did have rail transportation-the 6th and 9th Ave Els ran over it.
I believe the IND was built to replace the els for whatever reason.
Now, as far as your original questions, you're right, the TA could and should do better with the headways. Every 10 minutes is fine BUT they should spread the "B" and "C" out so that something services those stations every 5 minutes as oppose to the service pattern that is occuring now.
As far as the 10 minute headways, you really don't need more service from what I see. The ridership just isn't there. You cannot compare the crowds on the "B" and "C" with the "1" and "9".
Also, location is another factor. The "1" and "9" is more crowded because it runs on Broadway where everything is. You have all the stores, all of the movies, schools, colleges, Lincoln Center, all other commercial businesses. Also, there is nothing competing with the "1" and "9" west of Broadway. On the other hand, there is pretty much nothing on Central Park West but apartment buildings, rich apartment buildings. No stores, no business, no movies nothing but a park on the east side. As far as the west side, the "B" and "C" have to compete for passengers with the "1" and "9" just 2 block west.
Size of the cars are another factor. The cars on the "1" and "9" are smaller by both length and width than the cars on the "B" and "C". So now you have a larger amount of people trying to squeeze into smaller capacity cars therefore the TA has no choice than to run faster headways on the "1" and "9".
So, are you insinuating that John and Yoko never rode the AA train to 72nd Street? ;-)
And I always thought that the connection was screwing up the BMT!, Damn IND trains getting into places they have no business being.
And steeling the Culver Line too!
What DOPES!
Elias : )-
Whats wrong with People Eating Tasty Animals?
Elias
hehehehe.... Really Happened.
The critters from PETA were protesting on the lawn at the capito here in Bismarck....
the Cowboys arrived on the other side of the mall, and set up their grills and made steaks... The Cowboys called themselves "People Eating Tasty Animals"
: ) Elias
**This is fine if you want to help, and say you may find some more information in a thread we discussed let's say a month ago. It's all in the tone. That can be helpful, of course if it's not said sarcasticly.
You can't hear tones in an online discussion, you can only read text.
Writers would throughly disagree with you. Everybody knows that you can infer tone and meaning through choice of words.
Come on now.
Sometimes, but not always.
Just comes to show you need to be clear when you are typing. Same goes for speaking.
Rather than vent some anger at a useless time, I'd rather try to find a similar post and provide the link to it so we can keep all the comments on one thread. But some people are not aware that this post started before so either you answer the question a thousand times with a nice wording "this has been discussed before, but here is the answer again" or just provide the DAMM link.
We are all one happy family here, ACT LIKE IT, PLEASE!
Speak for yourself, I ain't got no relatives here. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
As far as I'm concerned, Glickman's for real, even if he's got a hot date with Isabelle. :)
Now *that* blows!
Ok, but if it has been discussed in the last three days (or "very recently") inside an appropriately titled thread, then there is no excuse.
--Mark
;)
Oh, we do plenty of that here. There's not as much pure silliness as you would see on the Straphangers' Rider Diaries, but we kvetch and complain plenty.
I'm not even a Jew and I knew what it meant!!!
Main Entry: 1kvetch
Pronunciation: 'kvech, 'kfech
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Yiddish kvetshn, literally, to squeeze, pinch, from Middle High German quetschen
Date: circa 1952
: to complain habitually : GRIPE
--Mark
Paranoid bed wetting cowards!
Suit-covered anuses!
Typical New York Incompetence!
The baby elephant walk!
Cows-at-the-slaughterhouse chute half-moons!
There are others, but I can't think of them.
Now, if you're telling us that you don't like the C's operating headways, fine. That's something we can compare notes on.
I have taken CPW local services, boarding the C at Penn Station, and found I never had to wait more than 7-8 minutes for it. Sometimes GOs screw up service; sometimes trains bunch up, but in general, I never had reason to complain.
I was a heavier rider of IND Queens Blvd. service, and found that, while I sometimes wished that R service would be more frequent, I never had to wait long for an E or F train.
I am also one who personally would have wanted the F to remain an express all the way to 179 Street, with the R remaining local to 179, but I was outvoted by the majority of riders who use the Hillside Avenue subway service.
Don't they plan to have the C/B run evenly?
Also, why are their headways so much longer than the other trains?
Also, the West Side IRT is more crowded than the IND, and if bunching up occurs due to some delay, the net affect appears like there is more service.
--Mark
The 145 St. thing is a problem. During the day, the B has to cross from the local track to the express track just to get into the center of the lower level at 145 St. and the reverse heading downtown again. I've seen that mess up the service. And because the B and C begin their northbound trips and have to merge together, a small delay can make them seem to be arriving one after another, or with a huge space between them.
Maybe once the full system is back to (new) normal in February, things will be better, we can only hope.
Your question deserves a good answer, and I encourage you to contact MTA by letter or email and politely ask for one.
Address:
MTA Government and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
New York NY 10017
I think he meant that when they run at the same frequency, they ought to be evenly spaced, rather than that they should run at the same frequency (which he is assuming).
The former is a very reasonable request. Two lines running at the same frequency ought to be evenly spaced if feasible. It isn't always feasible, of course.
It's all about numbers, if you want more C and B CPW service, get more people to ride the line.
When it comes to Weekends though, of course it is bad, the J, M, Z is usually empty, every subway line runs at 20 minutes at night (if that line runs at night) so it should come as no surprize to you nor to anyone else on this website.
The MTA is like every other business in Supply and Demand. Increase the demand on the line and the MTA will supply the cars....
Don't forget there is a subway car shortage in the B division. So expect the R-160 order to help.
Track Capacity.
The real questions are:
Could more B trains fit between 59th and 34th?
Could more C trains fit between Canal and Hoyt?
The answers to these questions will go a long way to answering whether the CPW local tracks could have an increase in frequency.
But I actually though it was a great idea, at least on nights and weekends. 4 cars on the C line with 4-6 minute headways on weekends and early evenings.
Sorry, but in NY, short trains suck. On paper such a scheme might look more "efficient" but it won't work here. And I can't see the T.A. running trains with such short headways in the time slots you mentioned, even with the 4 car trains. Now, if there were honest schedules posted, and adhered to like commuter trains are, I would think that in most cases, after midnight, 3 10-car trains an hour would suffice. With the schedules you'd at least know how long `til the next train, with certainty. You could plan around them.
That would be 8-car trains, if you're talking about the C line.
OPTO would be required to keep the costs reasonable.
As of when? If 212 new cars couldn't help a car shortage, I don't think 53 will.
Well, the J certainly doesn't have the best headways, but I never experienced 20-25 minutes unless there was a problem (which can happen on any line).
I agree with CPWrider about the CPW line. I don't know if it's perception, but I have rarely had a good experience waiting for the CPW local, especially on Satirday or Sunday. I avoid that line at all costs.
Yeah I guess that was the reason too. But 20 min at late nite is waaayyy too long. You can fall asleep while you're standing at the platform. And worst of all during winter season, the J line take much longer because there so many safety measures be taken on that line itself...Trains have slow down on bridge during bad weather and wait for the M to arrive at the Myrtle Ave station so the passenger won't be kept out on the cold while waiting for the M to pick them up
No it's not, remember most other major transit systems SHUT DOWN COMEPLETLY late nights. Quit yer bitchin'.
Peace,
ANDEE
The wait can drive one crazy - esp as you see express after express pass you by.
Why does the CPW local get the shaft in every way? Anybody in the know?
Maybe cuz nobody rides it, and they deserve to get the shaft? Sounds like to me that the lines that are busy are very busy, and lines that are quiet are getting even quieter because the riders realize that they are getting the shaft.
Now if you're complaining about 1-min/9-min/1-min/9-min headways, you should try riding the Boston transit sometime.
AEM7
I think many people avoid the CPW local b/c of it's horrible headways - which result in less people ridig - which results in lesser service - and the cycle continues.
In fact, I would guess that many people who live closer to the CPW local station prob walk farther to the IRT 1/9! - just to avoid the crazy headways! They would rather endure a crowded train with a shorter wait time.
Is this true? Anybody out there can vouch for this?
Is this true? Anybody out there can vouch for this?
On weekday mornings I use the IND because it is closer and brings me closer to work. But on weekends I walk farther to the IRT if I want to get somewhere on time.
Sigh. That statement gave me a momentary sadness. The IND, the "new" subway line, with the largest investment in infrastructure, should be the shining star. It just goes to show that, notwithstanding all our enthusiasms here for it, the subway just doesn't get as much ridership as it use to. (In comparison to the 1940s, say.) I know that many here will disagree with such a statement. The way I see it though, all those "other" entrances at the stations that have been shut or removed surely indicate less people using the stations.
I was thinking the other day that in addition to moving people from Brooklyn to Queens, the IND Crosstown might get more use if it were a connecting line from a Myrtle Ave. subway, or even a Lee/Nostrand Ave. line (although I suppose that would intersect the Fulton St. line regardless).
And *then* some knucklehead, snesing an EMERGENCY, pulls the cord!
HeHeHe....
YES!
Service was much more frequent and faster.
But as more and more people began wetting their pants over 'accidents' they responded by putting in more and more timers. : (
They were:
1. The IRT Times Sq-Flushing line
2. The IRT Times Sq-Astoria line
3. The IRT 2nd Ave El
4. The BMT Flushing Shuttle
The "1", "6" and "7" run even shorter headways.
I know that back in the '70s, the Eastern Division headways were way better than they are now (especially rush hours).
When it comes to Weekends though, of course it is bad, the J, M, Z is usually empty, every subway line runs at 20 minutes at night (if that line runs at night) so it should come as no surprize to you nor to anyone else on this website.
The MTA is like every other business in Supply and Demand. Increase the demand on the line and the MTA will supply the cars....
Don't forget there is a subway car shortage in the B division. So expect the R-160 order to help.
Otherwise if you want to voice your complaints about CPW local service, then go to the MTA website and send them an email. Thank you.
Suburbs do not have as much population density as New York City.
Suburbs are more likely to use cars as their means of transportation to and from work.
Therefore it is not cost effective to expand city subway services outside the city limits when existing means of public transportation have been available for over 100 years (almost 90 years for New Jersey).
Well, I *Never*!
Sure I owned a car. I parked it at the RR station and took a TRAIN into the city.
I always took the 6:06 out of Merrick. Parked my car around 0600, and then at the first network break on the WCBS news station, I'd shut down the car, and walk up to the platform. Most times the train would arrive within 60 seconds!
You gotta use your car to get around on the island, for their buses truly *do* SUCK.
Hasn't anyone thought of a nice on-the-cheap Automated El system (like the Lille Métro or the Docklands Light Railway)?
It's interesting to compare New York or any U.S. city with a subway to London. (I'm only regurgitating what I saw on a History Channel show, I'll warn you.) Where suburbanization in the U.S. was auto driven, in London, suburbanization was driven by the extension of new subway lines beyond the old edges of the city. The agency operating the tube at the time did this to make money by developing land it owned along its routes, if I remember correctly, and the suburbs were developed in a much more transit-friendly manner and with much better transit, of course.
Like I said, this is just something I saw on a TV show long ago, so if I have parts of the story wrong, I welcome corrections.
Mark
I would hardly call Jersey City, Hoboken, and Newark SUBURBS. Those are densly populated CITIES that happen to be located just outside of New York City.
Just to emphasize the point, the population density in most Hudson County cities is higher than New York city as a whole, though not the most densely populated parts of New York City.
No, because most of Hudson county is intermodal trailer parks, so the people are squeezed into smaller parcels. Oh and most of NYC is stuff like Staten Island and parts of Kings borough that has low density, non-apartment type housing.
Well, I've done a lot of walking all over Hudson County and I've rarely seen trailer parks. Nope, Hudson County resembles Brooklyn and Queens, mostly. A really walkable place with decent bus service.
Should have said "its"
New York City also has less parkland per 100,000 residents than any major city in America, and spends less on parks as a percent of its residents' personal income than most of them. Parks have been a low priority in this city since the days of Moses and Olmstead.
With a few exceptions, such as parts of Pelham Bay Park, most NYC parks are developed and heavily used. Such is not the case everywhere. Phoenix, for example, has an enormous park known as South Mountain, which in acreage surely dwarfs anything in New York, but most of it is completely undeveloped - we went horse back riding there a year ago, and for much of the hour-long ride were basically out of sight of civilization. Los Angeles also has several "wilderness" parks. In short, while NYC may not have a great amount of parkland per resident, it gets much more use out of what it has than do most other cities.
Certainly a valid point. OTOH, New York has greater need for parks than other places, as the amount of private open space is less. My 17 by 30 backyard is more than most have, since one-family homes are rare.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Why not. You can look out our dining room window and see Highway 8 extinging north just like that as far as the eye can see, and with quite a bit FEWER buildings than that. I can just imagine that line running down that road.
Of course that distance from the curve (6 miles from our place) and Old Highway 10 to the south of us is similar to the distance from Jamaica to downtown Brooklyn. When I drive that stretch, I often think of what it would be like if my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway would be built, for that would be the same express 75mph run.
Boy wouldn't be nice to have subway lines where the trains could stretch their legs for a really FAST run.
Elias
Now, in a place like Toronto, you can get away with extending subway service to the outskirts like Scarborough or North York. But that's only because people up there are civilized, unlike most U.S. cities.
No. Canadiens suck. They can't spell, talk funny, and they seem to think they can mind everybody else's business. I don't know about the TTC extensions, but if I am right, TTC has terrible service in terms of their hours. Recent TTC expansions have been based on replacing their busiest bus routes, and seem reasonable.
If you're going to lay on me for generalizing about Canadiens, well, the original poster should not have generalized about U.S. cities. Many U.S. city is very civilized.
AEM7
"Many U.S. city is very civilized."
Are you Canadian, by any chance?
Anyhow, if you compare the crime statistics of a similar size (in population) U.S. city (Boston) to Toronto, you will see that Boston has double the amount of rapes and homicides, triple the amount of robberies, etc, etc. But even without looking at actual statistics, if you ever just stood on a typical Toronto street corner, or rode any TTC vehicle, you don't get that "defensive" feeling like you would in Boston, New York or Chicago. Oh, and btw, I would guess that the person complaining about service on CPW would give anything to have to deal with the 5 minute off-peak headways of the Yonge Street subway!
Thats the problem Toronto is not a real city its like a crappy little regional town that pretends to be a city it has none of the real city things like the Symphony and like the Common or even like a real rail yard and it has no River and no Bridges everyone hates Toronto
Please don't speak for me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Have you seen some of the cultural sites on King Street - the theater district? How about the Ontario Science Center? How about the Islands in the Harbor that are reached by ferry? The ferries are reachable by subway or streetcar. Easier by streetcar - with a transfer from the subway.
Take a Queen car to Neville Loop and walk along the lakeshore.
Of course it doesn't have everything that NYC has. But then, it is a much smaller city.
Have you ever been to Toronto? A rule of thumb about their transit system - especially the subway and streetcar lines -- don't run for the train or streetcar, because the next one will be there by the time you get to the station.
Have you ridden their streetcar system? And taken the streetcar to High Park? And then walked through High Park?
Sit across from the old Maple Leaf Garden and watch the parade of streetcars going by as you eat in a restaurant.
Bridges - how about the bridge over the Don Valley that has the subway under the highway, with a view of the downtown in the distance?
And let's not forget Kids in the Hall!
Mark
Secondly, Toronto is a major city that is the capital of Canada, plus it is the financial centre of the country. That means that they have their own stock exchange located there.
Thirdly, there is a large rail yard right outside of Union Station.
Fouthly, there is a fine waterway known as the Don River, as well as the infamous Humber River.
Bridges? OK, you got me there (unless you count the Bloor-Danforth bridge over the Don River where the subway runs on the "lower level"). But I would much rather visit or live in a place without bridges if the overall quality of life is better. By "quality of life" I mean clean streets, frequent and varied transit service, and practically no homeless people harassing the public. Let's also not forget how it's a decent sports town with an NBA team, a Major League Baseball team, an NHL team, and a CFL team.
The bottom line is that Toronto is a cosmopolitan and ethnically diverse city with much less of the "tension" and "hostility" I sense when traveling through New York or other U.S. cities. And if that makes Toronto "bland" because of it, so be it. I hope you enjoy constantly looking over your shoulder, and not letting your wife or girlfriend or daughter out at night alone in your beloved American cities.
Mark
Boomer: The capital Toronto.
Mountie: No, the capital of Canada is Ottawa.
Boomer: Yeah, right. Do we look that stupid? Ottawa!
Roy Boy: Nice try, Dudley.
Here's some more, courtesy IMDB.com
Roy Boy: Are you sure we're in Canada?
Honey: You smell anything?
Roy Boy: No.
Honey: Exactly. Canada!
Boomer: There it is, men. Toronto.
Roy Boy: It's beautiful. Like no other city I've ever seen. It's like Albany. Only cleaner
And of course the anti-Jennings TV Announcer that pops in from time to time:
TV Announcer: The Canadians. They walk among us. William Shatner. Michael J. Fox. Monty Hall. Mike Meyers. Alex Trebek. All of them Canadians. All of them here.
[TV Announcer describes the Canadian National Tower in Toronto]
TV Announcer: It is the height of six American football fields, or five Canadian football fields. As if Canadian football really counts.
TV Announcer: Think of your children pledging allegiance to the maple leaf. Mayonnaise on everything. Winter 11 months of the year. Anne Murray - all day, every day.
TV Announcer: Like maple syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States
You are correct, sir. It was getting late, and my mind was out of whack at the time. My apologies!
What they don't have is some good ole express runs in a four track subway!
I'm beginning to wonder why I posted this at all here - with the sarcasm brimming.
You shouldn't be so quick to judge. Thank you for your suggestion about emailing the MTA tho.
Ever hear the expression, "When in Rome do as the Romans do"? It fits here, dude. This ain't no dainty fancy schmantzy LRT ride...it's a deep burrowed six-track trunk line, loud enough to make you deef, complex enough to make you lost and useful enough to plan your life by.
"We Move The Millions"
If you do this and have an answer post your EMail and the answer on this forum
Not only that, I learn a hell of a lot about the personalities of the people who post. Sometimes more than I want to know. Please, please don't let the sarcasm stop you, or it will stop me too, and others.
Without the CPW line the Broadway/7th Av line would probably look like the Lexington Avenue line.
In general running times can be predicited if you look at the route timetables on the MTA website. There will always be something that will throw the schedule off but at least you will get an idea as to when to be at the station to catch a train.
Don't let the sarcasm in here get to you. Most of those here who use it come by it honestly. Also some of the reaction is a bit of leftover frustration caused by an enthusiastic and well-meaning but annoying 11 yo who constantly asks the same questions over, and over and over even though he is given answers the first time.
Stick around for a while, you will get the "tone" of the board.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ridership on the West side IRT is heavier. The IND has nothing but park on it's eastern side.
The IND only sucks on this board. It had a plan to it. Look at the crappy BMT on the other hand. All of its South Brooklyn routes are a piecemeal system that is ridiculously redundant and results in a line that has ridership levels lower than those of some buses.
You could say that the IND looks BLAND, but you certainly can't say that it SUCKS. The BMT is waaaaay below the IND.
The lalala of course.
Yes, a subway is better than an el, but an el and a subway, both serving different places is better than a subway serving one place and nothing serving another.
The Manhattan Els should have been replaced, but there was no great need to replace the Fulton El and the South Brooklyn line should have run deeper into Red Hook.
The only line this was done with was the Fulton El. You could say that the same was done with 8th and 6th av els too, but the same would have been said of the 2nd av el as well. And the BMT did the same replacement thing: 5th av el and 4th av subway.
The whole thing should have been built in one shot. At the least in 1950, we should have had the improvements that were planned at that time.
The COncourse line is also a very redundant line. It obviously was meant to replace the Jerome El. The money spent on that would have been better spend adding service to an area that didn't have it. Of course we agree on the Fulton Subway, that also shouldn't have been built before some more important lines were built.
I do agree that all the Manhattan Els should have been removed, but they should have built parts of the second system before builting lines like Fulton and Concourse. Imagine what it would have been like if they built an out lying line that was supposed to connect to the Fulton Subway, but instead connected to the Fulton El since it was already there. Then later they could have always replaced the Fulton El with a subway as money became available, at least some area that didn't have service would have it now if money ran out 9which of course it did). There may even be a subway under second Ave now.
A 4 track subway from Continental Av, under Queens Blvd, 53rd St and 8th Av to W4th St, with the Express tracks extending under Hillside Av to 212th St and going under the River in the Cranberry St tunnel before rising onto the Fulton St El, and the local tracks continuing under Houston St and through the Rutgers St tunnel to Red Hook.
With all the Els still up, it would be a perfectly functional transit system...
The IND and BMT trains commute people between Manhattan and Queens and BKLYN. IRT trains are the heart and soul of Manhattan. New York City!
But I'll always love the IND/BMT. I love the seating capacity, lower ridership levels, and historic runs along Jamaica Ave, Myrtle, Broadway(Bklyn), and the Rockaways.
The IND and BMT trains commute people between Manhattan and Queens and BKLYN. IRT trains are the heart and soul of Manhattan. New York City!
------------------------------
How in the world is this true? Don't tons of people take the IRT 2/3/4/5/6 from the Bronx and Brooklyn to the city as well? What about the IRT 7 train, arguably the heart and soul of the Queens subway?
Then again, what about the A train - from Washington Heights and Harlem - they're in Manhattan last time I checked. Or the N/R/W/Q - the "tourist line" in Manhattan since it runs into so many Manhattan landmarks and famous intersections!
I think the only IRT line that can be argued to be a Manhattan-only is the 1/9, and that's b/c only a small part runs in the Bronx.
B division: Longer headways, more available seats.
A division: Shorter headways, few available seats.
Of course I rather be stuffed on a R62 than wait 10 minutes for a empty C train.
There are no more R32 trainsets running on the N line at this time, the N line "reports" to CI/Stillwell yards and all the R32 trainsets from CI yard were shifted to either Jamaica or Pitkin Yards several months ago. It is true that you will see R32's on the R beacuse the line is based in Jamaica (all trains running on the R line originate from Jamaica Yard, along with the E, F, G and V lines)
But I am talking to the current lines that are assigned to the specific rolling stock.
And I forgot to say in my last post that I am in aggreement with you on the R32's, the best subway cars made, EVER.
R-32.
Er, R32. What the hell am I smokin' today?
When someone proves it by posting a scan of a document from the MTA.
Thr R160 is to replace R32, R38, R40, R40m, R42.
I'm glad you are posting your opinion. You would be more believable if you also posted why everyone else is wrong, based on facts.
In round numbers:
R32 = 600
R38 = 200
R40 = 300
R40m = 100
R42 = 400
TOTAL = 1,600 (Less about 20 -30 lost along the way)
R160 = 1,700
R44 = About 274 or something like that (75 ft 60 foot equv 340)
How are they going to replace over 1,900 cars with a 1,700 car order unless they have an add on order?
R-32.
Quote from the MTA's Press Release of 7/31/02.
What is the likely plan on September 25, 2003? Most of us don't know. Could today's plan change in the future? Of course. What will actually happen? We can all make educated guesses but none of us know for sure.
That's a faulty assumption. We do not yet know for sure what's going to happen and when.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Not that I care, as long as they put the bulkhead signs back in, I don't care whether it's an R-32 or an R-38. :-)
David
Much of what I post on SubTalk debunks others' opinions because I have the facts that they don't have. Should I stop posting factual information as well?
David
Obviously I'm wrong about that.
By 1986 I believe, the R32s started going through the TA's graffiti free program whereas the doors-BOTH interior and exterior-were painted dark blue. This lasted until GOH began.
Here is an example of an R40:
"Weren't all the stainless steal cars painted with blue doors in the mid 80's? They all sort of got a grafitti removal and general clean-up then. I remember R32's (or R38's, I don't remember) on the M around 1985 with blue doors. I definitely remember R40, R40M, and R42 on the M with blue interior and exterior doors around the same time."
The R40s on the other hand kicked major ass. I remember when the R32s were on the "E" (1977-81 on and off), the R32s were no match for the R40s.
Of course if there was a R38 farewell trip everyone would attend.
I do like R-38's, but for the REALLY wrong reason...
Ride the < Q > line.
Hmmm (light bulb goes off), maybe I should become "R38 Chris"....
You bin' smokin your hair or somethin? :)
#3 West End Jeff
David
Umm, they already are the oldest piece of equipment on the B division, in revenue service.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
While the connection was a huge improvement, how it was first used was not. Service on the Brighton line was worse with the M replacing the QT. Midday service across the bridge was not that significantly greater post-Chrystie than pre-Chrystie. Only now, after 37 years, will the full potential of this connection be used, having 2 services on each side of the bridge all day long.
the M visited the Brighton in the 70s (i think replacing QJ)
Chris: The QB continued to run after Chrystie Street opened. It basically replaced the old Q service in a much reduced version.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Guess I heard wrong.
Tony Leong
While it would be neat to have that connection, it was a waste. The line had LOW ridership, and maintenance of the el probably cost much more than it took in.
South Brooklyn is already the most redundant area in terms of services. The Culver connection to the West End is not needed at all. It's not like F trains could benefit from it, only W or N trains, and they can simply run on each other's trackage.
With the Bergen St. lower level construction to take place, and the amount of GO's, anyway, there would be flexibility both ways and for both lines.
They can do this now with the use of sea beach or west end ROW's.
Also, the connections would be redundant in that you could switch trains in Brooklyn before they cross the bridge.
--Mark
With the way the connection finally turned out, yes, I even feel that they should have left a connection with the NORTH Side tracks AND the Broadway Line (the tunnel is stil there!!!!) for G.O's and delays etc. Hey, even the South Side connection with Nassau should have been left for the same purposes, but perhaps the curves were not meant for R-68's!!!!
The QT service was NOT replaced in 1967 with the M line. The Brighton Local weekday service was taken over by the QJ. From what I heard, that through- routing was useless overall!!!!
Anyhow, it will be nice to FINALLY have both sides of the Manhattan Bridge open for expanded subway service. i'd love to see how the riding and crowding patterns will be. Hopefully, the repaired bridge will be able to handle crowded trains on BOTH sides of the bridge unlike before. I remember packed B and D's on the North Side and crowded N, but light QB's on the South in the past.
Tony Leong
This needn't be a complete "I started out as a child. I'm a certified genius, have three wives and two kids, my hobbies include arranging flowers to simulate endangered species, creating bungalows from World War II aircraft and like long walks on abandoned rights-of-way with a special somebody"--just enough information so new posters (and a lot of the old ones) will get an idea who they're talking to. Something like this?:
Handle: Paul Matus
Real Name: Paul Matus
Age: 57
Residence: Long Island, NY
Main occupation: Programming, graphic design and internet services.
Connection to New York City (if any): Grew up in Flatbush, lived in Brooklyn to age 26.
Favoite System(s): BMT/BRT
Favorite Line(s): BMT Brighton Beach.
Rail Interests: Elevateds, Trolleys/Light Rail, Subways, Commuter Rail (any power), Trackless Trolleys
Favorite era(s): 1900-1940, 1960's, now.
Railfan Pursuits: History (national and some internation, esp. New York, Chicago, Philadelphia), writing, advocacy, web sites, riding, Still photography (b/w & color), .
Rail accomplishments: Silver Leaf Rapid Transit, designed imported, sold hobby goods; wrote articles and booklets; editor of The Third Rail (print and web); advocacy, New York City and Long Island.
Transit Website: http://www.rapidtransit.net
Other Hobby Website: http://www.urbanography.com, http://www.myrecollection.com
Everything optional. Probably nothing too personal. Where multiple answers are given, try to list the important first. Objective: just to get acquainted.
Just wondering.
:)
Handle: SelkirkTMO
Real Name: Kevin McAleavey
Age: 53
Residence: Voorheesville, NY
Main occupation: Programming, computer security software, cynic.
Connection to New York City (if any): Grew up in Da Bronix, Moved upstate at age 27.
Favorite System(s): IND
Favorite Line(s): Da D Train.
Rail Interests: Subways, Els, Trolleys, Fast freights, unattended locomotives, Branford (BERA) Museum
Favorite era(s): anyone I'm invited to.
Railfan Pursuits: Cured by employment by the TA in 1970-71.
Rail accomplishments: Survived working arnines and other subway cars. More importantly, survived the GEESE. :)
Website: http://www.nsclean.com
Favorite topic: Deposing politicians, flinging grenades over transoms, being a general pain in the ass
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Joseph? May he rest in peace :(
:0)
I enjoy every minute of it!!
YOU, of all people, can talk?
Chuck Greene
Handle: Steve B-8AVEXP
Real Name: Steve Bulota
Age: 46
Residence: Centennial, Colorado
Main occupation: Tech support. Am also a musician.
Connection to New York City (if any): Lived in NJ 6 years and Connecticut 7 years; was a frequent visitor to the city and a regular Saturday commuter for 3 years. Never lived in NYC, though.
Favorite System(s): IND
Favorite Line(s): The A.
Rail Interests: Anything that draws power from an overhead wire or third rail, Branford (BERA) Museum
Favorite era(s): Late 60s.
Railfan Pursuits: Addicted to express trains.
Rail accomplishments: Ran 1689 at Shoreline on Subtalk Day 10/02. Worked the doors on 1689 and R-17 6688.
Website: http://www.msnusers.com/TheATrain
Favorite topic: Rolling stock, especially the R-1/9s and R-10s
Handle: Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Age: 23
Residence: New York, NY
Connection to New York Metro area (if any): Attended almost every Hoboken Festival from I though XV, now lives and works in Manhattan.
Favorite System(s): All of them (IRT/BMT/IND/PATH/HBLR/etc.)
Favorite Line(s): Any line that is scenic or allows "high speed" running (relatively speaking, here in New York). But specifically the BMT Brighton, Original 1904 IRT, BMT Broadway Exp, former LIRR Rockaways, IRT and IND in Washington Heights
Rail Interests: Elevateds, Trolleys/Light Rail, Subways, Commuter Rail (any power), Trackless Trolleys, People Movers, Monorails, Roller Coasters, Freight, Steam, Maglev, new technology
Favorite era(s): Subway: 1965-current, Heavy Rail: 1930-current.
Railfan Pursuits: In order: riding, digital photography (website), and history.
Rail accomplishments: Website containing 4,490 photos, most of which are of the New York City Subway. Second most photos to this website, I think. Rode many "first revenue trains," including the "first train" over the south side of the MannyB, the first (1)train through the rebuilt tunnel through ground zero, the first PATH train to the reopened Exchange Place station, and the first train over the new (L) alignment at Atlantic Ave.
Transit Website: http://www.railfanwindow.com
Other Hobby Website: Scrantonese Dictionary, SubTalk Stupid
Favorite System(s): Amtrak
Favorite Line(s): B&O Main Line Capitol Ltd Route
Rail Interests: Yeah pretty much everything these days
Favorite era(s): Actually Amtrak in the early 90's were nice before all the Acela crap
Railfan Pursuits: Armchair railfan
Rail accomplishments: Hmm operated for Conrail in revenue service
Transit Website: Used to have one ages ago
Other Hobby Website: Too many to list here
All I have to say is, dammmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn :) Over how long?
Back in the 1970s I worked as a volunteer in what was then called the Office of Community Service at WMATA with Cody Phanstiehl giving walking tours during construction of the metro system. I have walked more the half of the system during various stages of it’s construction.
I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert on the construction of the WMATAs system and have a working knowledge of the train control and signaling system as implemented by General Railway Signal for metrorail.
Handle: DTrain22
Real Name: Dante D. Angerville
Age: 16
Residence: Bushwick, Brooklyn, NY
Main occupation: Student at Transit Tech High School, studying programming and networking
Connection to New York City (if any): Grew up in Bushwick/Ridgewood, near the J (8 yrs) and L (7 years).
Favoite System: BMT
Favorite Line(s): BMT Broadway El
Favorite era(s): 1940's, 1960's, now
Favorite Subway Car: R-30, R-32, R-131
Railfan Pursuits: Photography, Engineering and Design (structures/tunnels/ROW, subway cars, and stations), riding CTA and MBTA, finish riding WMATA
Rail Accomplishments: Participated in the Ultimate Ride, rode the first revnue train over the new L alignment, been inside Coney Island Shop and a SEPTA maintenance facility.
Transit Website: http://www.bwayjcteny.com/
AOL/AIM Screenname: Mxyzptlk31
Handle: DTrain22
Real Name: Dante D. Angerville
Age: 16
Residence: Bushwick, Brooklyn, NY
Main occupation: Student at Transit Tech High School, studying programming and networking
Connection to New York City (if any): Grew up in Bushwick/Ridgewood, near the J (8 yrs) and L (7 years).
Favoite System: BMT
Favorite Line(s): BMT Broadway El
Favorite era(s): 1940's, 1960's, now
Favorite Subway Car: R-30, R-32, R-131
Railfan Since: 1993
Railfan Pursuits: Photography, Engineering and Design (structures/tunnels/ROW, subway cars, and stations), riding CTA and MBTA, finish riding WMATA
Rail Accomplishments: Participated in the Ultimate Ride, rode the first revnue train over the new L alignment, been inside Coney Island Shop and a SEPTA maintenance facility.
Transit Website: http://www.bwayjcteny.com/
AOL/AIM Screenname: Mxyzptlk31
Handle: MikeF
Real Name: Mike Fraser
Age: 50
Residence: Long Island, NY
Main occupation: Architect.
Connection to New York City (if any): Just moved here from Cincinnati, Ohio. Never leaving.
Favoite System(s): IND & Metro-North New Haven (learned my first NYC neighborhood, Kingsbridge, from D line).
Favorite Line(s): 7 (just moved into Long Island City).
Rail Interests: Monorails, Mode transfers, New Urbanism, Passenger demand
Favorite era(s): 1850-1900, now.
Railfan Pursuits: Hold patent on monorail suspension system; transit mapping; urban design based on transit; exploring NYC by rail.
Rail accomplishments: Surviving Subtalk!
You mean you don't want to move back to Starkville?
The original name of the place was Boardtown. I wonder why they spelled it wrong.
: )
Mark
Did you know there was a one-track spur off the Tuscaloosa main line, that went from the Mississippi School of Engineering and Mines (I think that's what State used to be called) to the Mississippi University for Women in Columbus, MS? You had to pass the boys to get to the girls at the head of the track, and I'm not sure how they turned the locomotive. Those must have been the days.
Mark
Man, have we lost everybody else on this one.
So as far I as I know there have only been three of us here. If there's anyone else who is or ever was from Mississippi on SubTalk, please let us know we're not alone.
Mark
Will do all 469 stations this time after Stillwell opens in May 2004.
This time Stillwell will be open to 3 of the 4 lines and while I enjoy the film crew (don't get me wrong on this, Gena and her crew were great), this time no film crews, nothing to slow us down and we intend to do this in under 30 hours. We stop for bathroom breaks and for our fellow Subtalkers giving us the food and drinks we need, nothing else.
Camera Crews-- Think they were more surprised than we were over how long the entire trip would take..
I'm there for II.
If course they were...they had no clue what they were getting into.
*since the record has been "Retired" (removed from the Guinness Book of World Records), I would not be setting a Guinness World Record, I would just be besting one, with no official recognition of such. But I will contact Guinness about reactivating the record.
Handle: Kool-D
AIM Screen Name: brightonexpdavid
Real Name: David-Paul Gerber
Age: 34 (Born on Thanksgiving Day, 1968)
Residence: Brooklyn, NY
Main occupation: Word Processor
Connection to New York City: Born and raised in Flatbush, lived in Brooklyn entire life.
Favoite System(s): BMT and IND
Favorite Line(s): BMT Brighton Beach (what else).
Rail Interests: Retired subway cars and trolleys, historical aspects of NYC subway system
Favorite era(s): 1960's to 1970's and present
Favorite subway car(s): R32, R40 slants, also IRT Lov-V, R9 and R17.
Railfan Pursuits: Attend every operable subway car on all fan trips possible and at Branford. Also will do entire subway system again in 2004 (see below) and will ride Amtrak across U.S.A. again.
Rail accomplishments: Certified to have visited all 465 open subway stations without leaving system in 34 hours on July 24-25, 2003, will repeat this feat in 2004 (see above). In 1986 traveled solely on Amtrak from NY-Penn Station to Chicago, then to Oakland and Bay area via. California Zephyr, then to Seattle, then along northern plains back to NYC. Member Branford Electric Railway Association, operated IRT Low-V #5466 and other trolley cars.
Favorite Subtalk topics: Identify that picture, Brighton Line, subway service questions, cars, and trashing that Sea Beach line.
Transit Website: None yet, but hope to be webmaster of my site one day
This is my only connection to the system I grew up on and loved and I want to thank each and eveyone for their post and all of those Great pics. I hope to some day make my way back to NY and just take a long Elevated train ride. thanks again for all of these great post
john
Collects: Photos, historical source material, maps, engineering drawings, books, roll signs.
Favorite SubTalk Topics: History, technical discussions, photo identifying, NYC area politics.
Real Name: Mark Michalovic
Age: 32
Residence: West Philly
Main occupation: Chemistry teacher
Connection to New York City (if any): My wife is from Queens.
Favoite System(s): Atlanta MARTA, Toronto TTC
Favorite Line(s): SEPTA Route 100, Broad Street Subway and Broad-Ridge Spur
Rail Interests: rail transit of any kind
Favorite era(s): The future!
Railfan Pursuits: riding transit in different cities; transit photography collecting transit maps, passes, and other memorablia
Rail accomplishments: have ridden 14 subway/elevated systems, 13 light rail, 8 commuter, and contributed photos to www.nycsubway.org and MetroPlanet.
Other Hobby Website: Hubbf Adventures
Handle: Jeff W(normally techno79 everywhere else)
Real Name: Jeffrey Weingrad
Age: 24
Residence: Tampa Bay/Orlando, FL/in transient mode right now
Main occupation: Recent Graduate of the University of Central Florida's Rosen School of Hospitality Management
Connection to New York City (if any): Been there once for the hotel show in Novemeber, used to live 60-80miles south of you guys
Favoite System(s): SEPTA
Favorite Line(s): SEPTA R3 or R7
Rail Interests: Regional/commuter Rail, Most heavy rails, and newly trolleys, hopefully High-speed rail soon.
Favorite era(s): Tough one....I guess late 1800's-1920, time of Henry Plant and Flager during the FL land boom, and of course the old wooden El's up north and massive street car systems all over the US.
Railfan Pursuits: Trying to get rail transportation in cities where it takes 30 minutes to go five miles in traffic. Might volunteer for a rolling stock musuem soon. Photos and collecting scale models hopefully.
Rail accomplishments: Fighting every anti-transit person on newsgroups
Transit Website: Nothing yet, will update later.
Are you definately going to do a webpage for this, if so i'll send a pic.
I'll stop and leave things as is now
Other Hobbies: Collecting: transportation tokens; Metorcards; Starwars figures; Fast Food toys PLUS Genealogy (ancestor arrived in US in mid 1600), and space (member of Planetary Society).
Right now they are asking me for some cash so they can piggy back on one of the last rockets ever to be launched from White Sands. My name was on a micro dott that went to Mars. They have (behind the scenes) had a lot to do with getting scientists around the World to work togather. They believe that it's VERY likely that intellegant life exists out there somewhere & think we ought to go to Mars ... I share both beliefs.
Tha aliens should be hunting me down anyday
You would not have been admitted to Drexel unless you had a lot on the ball, a bright individual with a lot of potential. I congratulate you on being at Drexel and wish you every success.
Come on, man, honor roll. Just do it.
I am a Drexel alumnus (but only by acquisition. My medical diploma says Hahnemann on it).
Handle: New Look Terrapin
Real Name: Christopher Der
Age: 19
Residence: Silver Spring, Maryland
Main occupation: GIS (Geographic Information Systems) and Computer Cartography Major at the University of Maryland-College Park
Career plans: A career in the transportation industry or city/urban/regional planning.
Connection to New York City: I have many relatives living in Chinatown.
Favoite System(s): WMATA Metrorail, NYC Subway, Montgomery County Ride-On
Worst System Ever: MTA Maryland Metro Roachway, err, Beepway, err, Subway.
Favorite Line(s): WMATA Red Line, IRT East Side and BMT Brighton
Rail Interests: Subways, Trolleys/Light Rail.
Favorite era(s): I wish I was alive in the late 70's early 80's, so that I could see some grafitti cars and whitebirds;-)
Railfan Pursuits: Some history (mostly New York), current events, photography, technology, riding the subways.
Rail accomplishments: Riding the entire WMATA Metrorail, seeing City Hall on an OOS 6 train.
Transit Website: Transit DC: Representing DC Area Transit And Beyond...
...Nothing is...
Age: 32
Residence: Long Island
Connection to New York Metro area: Lived in Ridgewood/Bushwick/Glendale until about 8 years ago. Rode the subway everyday for high School, and again once in college in both Brooklyn and then later in Manhattan. My interest in the subway started on my two station subway ride during HS (even though I always "liked" it). Later it expanded to 3 boroughs, and I was hooked during my first year of college.
Favorite era(s): No particular favorites; love the history, but perfectly content with the present system.
Railfan Pursuits: Trying to ride as much as possible.
Rail accomplishments: Ridden every line in the system, and set foot in about half of the stations. Been at/photographed every LIRR station, both current and abandoned.
Favorite System(s): Of course it's the NYC subway as the best. San Francisco is probably my favorite non-NY area system.
Favorite Line(s): Tough one. I like them all, and really don't "hate" any line. My favorite line is probably the Contract One IRT lines in Manhattan, followed very closely by the Broadway El in Brooklyn.
Favorite Route : The J/M Lines
Rail Interests: Infastructure: Tracks, stations, interlockings, tunnels, towers, etc, both subway and in general. My main interest is the subway though.
Railfan Pursuits: In order: riding, photography, exploring stations. I also like riding trains where they don't usually run (let's say for example, an R68 on Queens Blvd, express where there is no usual express, unused connections, etc).
Those who actually do things are not low men. If your job doesn't get exported to China in the next few years, you probably have real value in the global economy.
As for us number and character manipulators, most of us are going to be replaced by computers (and the sooner the better).
Seems to me as if there are a number of students, and a couple people who are looking for work. Not everyone's a high-paid executive.
Transit Website: subway.goumba.net
Other Hobby Website: cars.goumba.net, taws6.goumba.net.
Oh. Oops. Now I guess I have to change my handle.
"Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean someone isn't REALLY
out to get you !"
- Mediocrites
No! The dog is NOT a railfan.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Subway the cat is doing fine but has never been on New York's subway.
He gets under everything, no matter how low.
He loves to sleep up against my encased BMT rollsign.
HaHa, got you beat, MY Subway the cat has not only been on the D train, he was born in Westchester yard. He is a bit of a moron though, must be that TA influence.
Peace,
ANDEE
Time for an upgrade? My cat from the Humane Society is pretty bright.
Peace,
ANDEE
My Subway the cat loves to nap, plastered against the front of it. It's almost as if he knew that it is a subway sidesign.
I'm going to hate to remove it to mount it on the wall.
Jimmy
Jimmy
I suspect it's only for warmth, as it is in a window.
Peace,
ANDEE
That explains a lot. :)
--Mark
Could have been worse. Your wife could have been a football/basketball/baseball/hockey widow.
:0)
til next time
You really like my website, huh?
til next time
Jimmy ;)
HUH? What is this you speak of?
Back in 1999 I was on a Field Trip to the Newark City Subway ... was either my first or second time out there (met Lou from Brooklyn for the first time, along with many others who are my close friends now). Anyhow the Fax Man was aboard. He pointed out where the extra loops were as we left.
He also joined us on a recent trip to HBLR and explained how they did the wrong rail maneuver as we past over the switches.
Friends like this that you just happen to meet are priceless !
Are you talking about the Hudson Terminal track(ways)? I used to think I could see some old track(ways) when exiting (NJ bound) the station too, but when I look at this track map, it looks like there was nothing to be seen upon exiting the station. So what "loops" could you see leaving the station?
In the same house?!
Jimmy
Why not? I have 2 cats and tropical fish in the same house. The cats barely pay any attention to the fish. They're 2 busy trying to kill each other.
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
That's correct. I'm not sure we can say it yet, but I'm hoping that they heyday of New York's subway and commuter rail network is in the future, not the past. Not transit in general, what with trolleys on low-traffic streets replaced with buses stuck in gridlock caused by double parking and left turning cars.
For a new heyday to occur, the following will have occur by 2015:
1) At least the Stubay portion of the Second Avenue and East Side Access will have to be operating, along with MetroNorth to Penn.
2) The entire R160 order will have to be received and satisfactory.
3) No new deferred maintenance.
4) The Manny B will have to be hale and hearty, with all my fears unrealized and a century of uninterrupted service ahead.
5) Automatic Train Supervision and the New Public Address/Customer Information System up and running on all lines.
6) The renovation of all major transfer stations will have to be completed, including new transfers at Jay-Lawrence and Bleeker-Broadway-Lafayette.
All this would happen by 2015, money aside. We'll see about the money. After that year, social security and Medicare for the elderly will take up all we have, and then some. Better get the work done by that time.
Usually I visit this board at least three times a week to catch up on certain posts or whatever. Someday when I get a better cam I can contribute. This 1.2 or whatever megapixel camera just won't do.
Handle: Kccitystar
Real Name: Ariel Rivera
Age: 16
Residence: The Bronx, NY
Main occupation: Student at Evander Childs High School.
Connection to New York City (if any): Born and raised in the South Bronx, lived in The Bronx all my life.
Favoite System(s): IRT
Favorite Line(s): D, 5, A, 2, and 4.
Rail Interests: Subways, Railroad technology
Favorite era(s): Late 80's, now. (I was born in the late 80's...8))
Railfan Pursuits: Riding, Still Photography (color), websites .
Rail accomplishments: None yet.
Transit Website: Have plans on creating one someday.
Other Hobby Website: http://nxgn.net - my fansite for a baseball video game which contains downloads.
Usually I visit this board at least three times a week to catch up on certain posts or whatever. Someday when I get a better cam I can contribute. This 1.2 or whatever megapixel camera just won't do.
Not that I didn't do well, just it didn't seem so specialized to me. Hope Tech lived up to your expectations though.
Thank G-d I didn't transfer out of Transit...
Tech isn't as cheerful as depicted by others. I'll only experience true happiness when I graduate.
"Senior Pride Fridays," Senior Winter Trip, and Prom will be unforgettable I hope.
We had a young man who joined our field trip to NJ in January. He was 15. He hung with the old men until way after dark. A couple of us had e-mails from his mom when we got home (mom's do get concerned when you don't even call to say you're still alive & will be a little late getting home). I sent her a photo of us doing what railfans do best, have a great time. She said thanks.
Photos please?
Here are some links of tunnels i've visited (homepage haves nothing to do with my friend or me)
the third one (still in use):
http://home.t-online.de/home/320037592554-0001/Bahn641.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/320037592554-0001/Bahn559.htm
Fishbowl 8V71
Jimmy
Mr. T. is much more...
Seriously? That's pretty impressive.
Kewl! I bet the neighbors are impressed when you use it to pull your lawn mower!
Hey, I've been up your way many times. You're the "Syracuse Chapter," right? You have the Lackawanna E-8's. I'm a member of the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Chapter.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
You forgot you time in Boston, where I first met you.
Certainly the first time anybody has ever accused me of that. :-)
You forgot you time in Boston, where I first met you.
Yeah, I forgot about that... I was only there for three months and didn't particularly enjoy living there, so it didn't seem worth mentioning.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I forgot to mention that I'm also a flaming liberal, and that the Sea Beach line usually bores me to death. But thanks anyway. :-)
Are you going to stay in architecture or go in some other profession?
At the moment, I plan on staying in architecture, although lately I've been pretty disgusted with the state of the profession (and with the corporate world in general), and frustrated with daily life in a typical architecture firm. Time will tell if this is just a phase I'm going through, or if I should re-examine my career goals.
Ideally, I'd like to have my own small firm doing good quality religious buildings and/or transportation facilities. Maybe also some teaching on the side, but I'm not sure how realistic those ideas are.
Lately I've been giving some minor consideration to going into seminary and becoming an Episcopal priest. I love studying theology and being active in the liturgical life of the church, but I seriously doubt I actually have what it takes to become ordained. And even if I did, I suspect my calling remains in architecture.
(Actually, my ultimate dream job would be the architect in charge of completing the Cathedral of St. John the Divine according to the original plans by Ralph Adams Cram, assuming they ever decide to resume construction again.)
Whatever, get your degree.
That's the plan.
The fact that you are an Episcopaleon isn't bad either since my wife is one.
Good to hear it. As I recall, OnTheJuice is a fairly active Episcopalian as well. I'm actually somewhat of a newcomer to the Episcopal Church, having grown up in various Presbyterian and UCC churches. Nothing against either of those traditions, but I'm drawn to the rich liturgy and sacramental nature of the Anglican tradition. (I guess it also helps that a huge chunk of my family ancestry is British.) I've been exploring the Episcopal Church as an option for the past two years or so, and have been regularly attending my parish since moving to Philly a year ago. On the 28th of this month, I'll be confirmed by the bishop to make it official.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
LOL ... Hey Fred, have a nice day !
If you can stomach church design and the petty politics -- and if you want to be a priest it means you are ASKING for the petty politics -- then that's your calling. It's like being a priest without the collar. You'll be doing counseling for the building committe 24/7. They need you.
The bears ATE all the liberals upstate when Rockyfeller (GOP *king* of liberals) was guv here. And being self-employed, that commie stuff didn't work out either. Moo. Are there REALLY any liberals left?
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Only kidding, I'm gonna root for my beloved Buffalo Bulls, even if they get rung up 63-3 by UConn.
Chuck Greene
I'm sure I could leap on a slow Midland Mainline with some Champers!
I should check my arithmetic. The Paddington-Farringdon section of the Hammersmith & City Line (originally the Metropolitan Railway) is **140** years old this year and was the world's first undergropund railway built as such. The Hammersmith-Paddington section followed a year later.
However, the Thames Tunnel which takes the East London line of LU under the Thames from Wapping to Rotherhithe really is 160 years old this year - it was a pedestrian tunnel originally and rails were added in 1865. It is the oldest part of LU's system. It was also the only project on which Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his father Marc Isambard Brunel worked together.
Handle: Flatbush41
Age: 18
Residence: Born and raised in Brooklyn
Main occupation: Student at City Tech
Favoite System(s): NYCT
Favorite Line(s): Da Brighton of course :-D
Favorite subway car: The R32 [IND/BMT] and the R33/36WF [IRT]
Rail Interests: Mainly into talking about the subways ex. expansion. I also railfan at times & I like to learn new things every day.
Favorite era(s): Well the 90's and now but I would of liked to experience the subways in the 80's.
Railfan Pursuits: I'm more of a bus fan but I'd like to ride other rail systems in the future like WMATA, MBTA and SEPTA, attending the centennial, man there's so much!
Rail accomplishments: Well I have been through the entire system and rode every line in NYCT (not in one day of course).
Transit Website: None
You can sign up for Ultimate Ride II, scheduled for Summer or Fall 2004, if you change your mind and are up to the challenge.
Why do I get the feeling that wasn't a typo? :)
Frank Hicks is an entirely mythical figure, a figment of his parents' warped imagination. He was raised by a yak, by whom he was always treated as one of the family, and ever since he was old enough to eat with the grownups he has been merely the front for a vast international syndicate of ne'er-do-wells. But enough of Hicks the railfan. What of Hicks the bon vivant, man about town, and idol of three continents? At last report he had settled in Naperville, Illinois, where he earns a precarious living peddling dope to the local school children and rolling an occasional drunk. Here he spends his declining years with his shrunken head collection, his Nobel Prizes, and his memories.
paraphrased from Tom Lehrer
Website: www.forgotten-ny.com
AFAIK many longtime posters who have not published a dossier on themselves, and those who posted in the past, are either 1960s "flower children" and older. And I'm surprised at the number of teens, college students and very young adults.
H-A-Y, I resemble that remark, but didn't got to Woodstock. I did do the week-end Hippy route in The Village ... ever been to The Gate or Gas Light or Ninth Circle ?
Huh? What's that, and what was Vietnam, and who were the Beatles, Nixon and Kennedy? Ancient history, not important.
My introduction to the wider world was the energy crisis, the fiscal crisis, stagflation and gas lines. My President will always be -- Jimmy Carter.
Chuck Greene
It was the best Greek resturant in town :-(
Oh yeah I forgot you moved here from Boston in 1965. Amazing that you still have the accent after all these years. ;-) :-)
People in this age category who grew up in New York seldom may be railfans because during their teenage years, the time in life when people often develop their first non-transitory, adult-type interests, the subway was in very sorry shape.
Anyway, here's mine:
REAL NAME AND HANDLE: Howard Fein
AGE: 44
RESIDENCE: Flushing, NY. Married, one son age 7.
MAIN OCCUPATION: Administrator for NYC Department of Education. That means I'm not a teacher, but I work during the summer.
CONNECTION TO NEW YORK CITY: Moved from Long Island to Whitestone in 1963; been in northeast Queens since 1989. Folks raised in Da Bronx.
HOME LINE: Flushing. ALTERNATE HOME LINE: Queens IND
FAVORITE SYSTEM: BMT
FAVORITE LINES, subway: Dyre, Rockaway, Brighton, Canarsie
FAVORITE LINES, other: LIRR Main/Ronkonkoma, NJT Coast, SEPTA Route 100 and MFL, Washington Metro Yellow Line, BART to Fremont
FAVORITE EQUIPMENT, DEFUNCT: R1/9s
FAVORITE EQUIPMENT, CURRENT: R42s as they first appeared.
RAIL INTERESTS: Pretty much anything passenger oriented.
FAVORITE ERA: Roughly 1967-75: Huge variety in equipment, especially in B Division; express runs unencumered by grade timers; 3rd Avenue and Myrtle els still in existence; railfan windows always available.
REGRETS: Not having been born thirty years earlier when trolleys and Manhattan els existed. Not finding out about the 3rd Avenue el's demise until too late. Failing to ride systems in Los Angeles and Vancouver when in those locations.
FAVORITE EXPERIENCES: Riding a new line- especially elevated or surface- for the first time; a fast express run, especially elevated; riding equipment not common for the line it's on; riding a train through grade crossings to see the line of traffic waiting.
PET PEEVES: Unannounced GOs or service disruptions; simultaneous GOs on two or more lines serving the same area; long waits for connections; musicians and religious zealots in my car; door and stairway blockers; people who think they're too good to ride the subway; people who panic over a GO or disruption because they don't know any other way to go except the way they go every day.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS: Have ridden light or heavy rail systems in Boston, Philly, DC, San Francisco, San Diego, Toronto, London and Jersey. Have ridden trains and/or buses in all five boroughs in one day. Have ridden entireties of NYC subway system, LIRR, MN, NJT (except Princeton shuttle and Atlantic City branch) and pre-expansion BART. Immortalized as railfan in NY TIMES and on Internet: Googling my name will lead you to my picture in several Subtalk trip reports.
FUTURE ASPIRATIONS: To explore rail systems in Baltimore, Denver, Portland, LA and especially Chicago. To railfan unexplored territory in cities I've already been to.
OTHER INTERESTS: Roadgeeking, travel, local history, baseball, writing, animation, comedy, eating (the latter according to my wife).
"... Going to be 63 next month and my enthusiasm for the New York Subway is as great as ever ..." Probably due to the fact that you have less distractions in your life, i.e. caring about work, wondering if the wife is pregnant, etc.
Hey out of sight out of mind, opps that can drive you out of your mind.
My last one just graduated, but one is still home with her kid, and it looks like another will arrive with his wife & kid. Gee will have two grand childern in the house, so it starts all over again ... but why me worry I go railfanning on the week-ends !
"... How about being a Mets fan out here and constantly being forced to eat shit just about every day ..."
Sorry my friend, but there's no cure for that problem. Even Mike P has forgot how to hit :-( The only good part, when you go to the game, is trying to count how may Red Bird sets are in use ... how's that for getting back on topic !
Hope you're not siphoning some of that "payroll" to finance it.
I've actually LOST more auctions than I've won... it takes two or more to get the bids up that high ;-)
It seems that the Soviet Union still lives on - at least whenever you catch a plane - Aeroflot still seem to use the code SU.
Stay in school if mom & dad are paying, because it's rough out there ...
Dr Marrero has a nice ring to it ????
Handle: Allan
Real Name: Allan Berlin
Age: 52 (as of 11/6 this year)
Residence: Bronx, NY
Main occupation: Financial Analyst for a very large financial institution.
Connection to New York City (if any): Born, raised and still live in the Bronx.
Favoite System(s): IRT
Favorite Line(s): Dyre Avenue, Pelham Bay.
Favorite car(s): LoV
Rail Interests: Elevateds, Subways,
Favorite era(s): 1960's, now.
Railfan Pursuits: History, advocacy, riding, photography (b/w & color).
Rail accomplishments: Visted every NYC Subway station (open or closed) since the early 1960's. Was at opening of Archer Avenue line in December 1988. Charter Member (#6) New York Transit Museum. 20 year Member BERA.
Handle-----#4 Sea Beach Fred
Real Name--Fred Anthony Peritore
Age--------Will be 63 on October 27
Residence--Arcadia, California
Occupation-Retired. I was a teacher for 35 years.
Connection to NYC---Born in Queens and lived in New York City until
was 14 when my family moved to California
Favorite System---The BMT, what else!
Favorite Train----Come on now, THE SEA BEACH
All Time Favorite Car---The Triplex
Rail Interests----Riding the Subway and especially my Sea Beach
Favorite Era------The late 1940's and early 1950's
Railfan Pursuits--I dream of one day commandeering a Triplex and
running it down 4th Ave. and the Sea Beach Express
tracks.
Handle: ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 )
Real Name: Carlos Fernandez
Age: 26
Residence: Nyack, NY
Main occupation: Television Production Specialist (4 hire)
Connection to New York City: Born and raised on the 1 line.
Favoite System(s): IRT
Favorite Line(s): 7th Avenue Local, Pelham Bay 6
Favorite car(s): r10, r22, r26/28/29/33, r62a
Rail Interests: Railfan Windows, Subway Signs & Artifacts,
Favorite era(s): 1980's and 1990's.
Railfan Pursuits: Documentary on History of Subways.
Rail accomplishments: Riding the entire system (7/24/03).
Was at re-opening of South Ferry branch in September 2002.
Member: Kingston Trolley Museum div. R-16 Car Restoration.
Se habla espanol.
--Mark
He's got a red carpet the size of 14 miles! ;)
--Mark
To understand it they'll need to move within 14 miles of Palace di Feinman!!
1 Uptown 9
Handle: Anon_e_mouse
Real Name: C.K. Leverett
Age: Certified antique
Residence: Bunn, North Carolina and Eatontown, New Jersey
Main occupation: Project manager
Connection to New York City: Born in Poughkeepsie, New York; travelled from Penn Station to points west and south many, many times.
Favorite System(s): CNS&M, Poughkeepsie and Wappingers Falls Street Railway, Barcelona Metro, Ferrocarriles Catalanes
Favorite Line(s): FCat line to Sabadell from Barcelona
Rail Interests: Trolleys, light rail, rail-based urban mass transit in general, Budd RDCs, Pennsylvania RR
Favorite era(s): 1930's - 1960's
Railfan Pursuits: Still photography (Kodachrome)
Rail accomplishments: Involved in the retail hobby business from the mid-'80s through 2001 (The Hobby Shop, Raleigh, North Carolina). Member of North Raleigh Model RR Club, Jersey Central Ntrak, East Penn Traction Club, and several trolley and railroad museums. Active as an operator at Shore Line Trolley Museum, East Haven, Connecticut.
Other interests: Drive a 1965 Ford Falcon Ranchero every day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
On these message boards, where it says your handle at the top, have it linked to your profile, where-ever it maybe hosted.
I know I can't even remember someone's name if it's the only person I came in contact with that day, I'm sure I'm not going to remember anything about these 196 posts on this thread!
Also, I'm wondering, Am I the only person currently living at least 260 miles from any passenger train service(minus the one amtrak per day).
I can understand someone going through the other sections and reading, but why bother reading posts in a chatroom if you don't participate? You'd have to be a real strange bird with no life.
Oh.
Personally, I think I would post asking people if it's all right to assemble something permanent.
One transit professional in the Boston area that used to be in an influential position used to read this board regularly, and (I think) rarely posts. He's since moved on, and I am not sure he's still influential, but I wouldn't be surprised if he monitors this board. Transit professionals often monitor this board just to (a) get ideas, and (b) get an idea as to what non-professional people are thinking.
AEM7
Apparently I haven't said anything bad yet since i'm still around. I must learn to keep my mouth shut someday :)
Think what it takes to HOST it.
Dave Pirmann is a shining example of how no good deed goes unpunished. I want to know when he's going to quit his job and devote full time, unpaid, to SubTalk.
Now i you've lurked for lets say 3-4 years for example, then those people have some serious problems :-\.
Just think, though. However transportation deprived you are, there's always someone more so in the US.
Try looking up either Supai, AZ or Stehekin, WA on an atlas of the US. They make you look unbelievably connected to the rest of the world.
My wife and I came to the aid of a passenger who fainted on the Empire Builder a few years ago. Turned out he was dehydrated. Didn't eat or drink enough and too much activity. His wife was pissed - we unloaded him onto the local rescue squad. After he was checked over and released from the hospital he and the Mrs. cooled their heels there until the next Builder came by the next day to collect them (or was it the day after - don't remember if the train was daily or 3 times a week).
- A lot of you are out-of-town, but are quite interested in NYC mass transit ... old and new, i.e. trolleys thru current subways.
- Many of you seemed to have missed the March of Dime's Trips this year, i.e. the Transit Museum IRT, IND & D-Types.
Will they come back out next year, I sure hope so.
But mean while, what better way to meet some of your SubTalk friends then on a Field Trip or a Charter ? I've done a bunch of those & had folks come in from NJ, Philly, and Minn. to join it. There is an all day one coming up next month (not by me). It will be a small group riding the system on a week-day all day. I've joined them after work two different years. All it takes is for someone here to coor. it & invite his/her friends. Ideas, suggestions, timing ? I personally like Friday's after work (short trip) or a holiday (all day).
Charter ... opps look out shamles plug :-(
Yes, you friendly neighborhood trolley museum has a few old subway cars & some qualified operators. It would be their pleasure to take you for a ride. How about a Hi-V / LoV trip ? We almost did this in the Spring. It ended up a R-9/LoV trip because the HiV can't come out in the rain. Just contact Sparky or myself privetly & if enough folks are interested we'll do it (there's a mim. cost we need to cover, so too small a group makes the per customer cost too high). The staff & crew (onboard) kicks into the cost, just because we're having fun too.
Am I the oldest person so far?
Nope, but you are ahead of me ... by a little bit.
Guess our daddys didn't want to go to war, mine made propellers in East Hartford.
"Oh, Hi Lois, this is my friend Big Fat Paulie, and this is his big fat ass."
In my view, the Simpsons jumped the shark when Homer became the main emphasis, rather than Bart. Bart is clever. Homer's just plain stupid.
"DENTAL CARE -- Lisa needs braces -- DENTAL CARE -- Lisa needs braces -- DENTAL CARE -- Lisa needs braces."
But it was fun while it lasted.
BTW, it went on six times, then there was an interruption, then three more times.
At the union meeting
Lenny: So long, dental plan!
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice on Homer's brain: Dental plan!
Marge's voice on Homer's brain: Lisa needs braces.
[As a prank, Chuckie drops a pencil into the crack of Homer's butt]
Carl : Bull's-eye!
Homer: Thanks a lot, Carl. Now I lost my train of throught.
Lenny's voice: Dental plan! Marge's voice: Lisa needs braces.
Lenny's voice: Dental plan! Marge's voice: Lisa needs braces.
Homer: If we give up our dental plan... ... ...
I'll have to pay for Lisa's braces!
BULLSEYE!!
Cartoon Network and TBS have Family Guy reruns every day on a regular schedule.
TOON has them Monday-Thursday at 11PM/10 Central TBS reruns that episode the following day at 2PM/1 Central and has their own episode (not a repeat from TOON) on Mondays also at 2PM/1 Central.
Mark
I found this on your homepage. You're writing that your listed things
really happend. So i would like to know more about this "accident".
Opps the lurkers are going to be able to ID you :-(
They got a friend of mine who made the mistake of leaving his TA e-mail address visable on his first couple of posts. He didn't fix it quick enough :-(
Not really, since the 10/03 Employee of the Month hasn't been announced yet (typo), and like me, it's not hard to find out his full name.
They got a friend of mine who made the mistake of leaving his TA e-mail address visable on his first couple of posts. He didn't fix it quick enough :-(
Yes, we all know who that was (is).
May you have a long and satisfying career. I hope your daughter still enjoys trains.
CG
I keep wondering if I am the only BERA member who has never been to BERA.
As it stands I have only been there 4 times in 20 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will get there someday.
And you're waiting for WHAT? Gettysburg isn't so far that you can't make the drive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Friends who have left the city more recently tell me not to go back and ride the train. I would supposedly be devastated by the changes in the neighborhoods the el passes through..
One thing that really bothered me was the turn from Fulton into Crescent. There was a clear view of the top of what is now the Greenpoint Bank at Fulton & Crescent. The word Greenpoint is clearly visable on the building.
It is the same building that I worked in from Mar 1954 to Aug 1957. It was known as the Hamburg Savings Bank then. A business name founded in 1906, and never changed, even through two world wars. A bank that had a red neon sign on the roof that could be seen from almost any point in Cypress Hills. I understand the name lasted until the late 1980's.
I guess I am one of those people that just does not like change, and has difficulty in accepting it!
It's beyond doubt that the neighborhood has slipped a lot in the past 40 years. On the other hand, it has been on the upswing in the past several years, and probably wouldn't seem as bad to you today as it would have looked back in the early 1990's.
I can recall going with my parents to solicit gifts and prizes for our church fairs. We canvassed the businesses on Broadway from Myrtle west to the bridge. I am told that the businesses are all gone as well as most of the old buildings that housed them.
Flushing to Marcy and Myrtle to ENY, there seems to be a lot of unoccupied storefronts and more vacant lots than Flushing to Myrtle, but the regrowth will spread. Heck, I would be surprised if a Starbucks opens up around Broadway & Flushing in the next two years :(
I think you mean these buildings:
Yes, those buildings were abandoned as long as I have been riding the line. I remember standing on the NB platform and staring at and into those buildings in the early 80's. Most of the windows were boarded up with doors taken from the interior of the building. I have seen photos that show that building with the Myrtle El running up above and that building was already abandoned in the 50's!
--Mark
Had a Starbucks or a Crate and Barrel opened up there, that would be something altogether different.
Man, if this is what you guys consider "better", I don't even wanna think about what it was like when it was "worse"! There are still plenty of abandoned buildings and lots all along Broadway. There are like 4-5 ABD buildings right next to the Halsey St station. There are at least 2 next to Chauncey plus two enourmous empty lots. There is an empty lot in horrendous shape next to Gates. And there are plenty of buildings missing windows near Lorimer/Hewes. And this is "better". I can't even conceive of what was "worse".
Although I will agree that Broadway from Myrtle to Flushing looks a little better than the rest of Broadway.
Hasn't changed since the 90's??? That couldn't be more untrue. As bad as it may seem, it's like night and day along Broadway now comparing it to 1985 or the 90's. Gone are all the burnt/abandoned buildings. Before it was harder to see an in-use building than an abandoned/burnt building. Now it is hard to find a burnt building. In fact in their places, the ones that have not been refurbished, but removed, there are now attached one and two family homes sprouting up in their place. Broadway has undergone a complete turnaround, the stations look great, the neighborhood is finally seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.
Check out some photos
Thru his eyes the same buildings will be there, especially the ones that you can almost reach in a shake hands with the tenent on those curves.
Paul: This is a great idea. I've been printing out the respones all night. I had no idea that you had so many wives. You did leave out that you are the author of the "Staten Island Rapid Transit" booklet which is the best single-volumne treatment of any transit line that I have ever read.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Military: Sergeant, US Air Force 1968-1972
Connection to NYC: Grew up in The Bronx, moved upstate in 1988, still work in NYC.
Favorite Systems: IRT,PATH,, BMT,SEPTA
Favorite Line: IRT 5,6,4,7, NJT 7, BMT 1,5,7,10, Mattapan-Ashmont, Waterloo & City
Rail Interests: Subway,Els,PCC's,Railroad EMU's
Favorite Cars: R-33 Redbirds,Lo-V's,PA-1s,Class K,ACMU,R-11
Favorite Era: 1962-Last run of Redbirds
Rail Accomplishments: IRT Gate Cars on Dyre Av Line, Last run of 3 Avenue EL,Last CNJ train into Jersey City, First train thru Chrystie Street.Compiled extensive collection of railroad and transit information.
Goals: To compile a database containing the above material.
Interests: Meeting with other sub-talkers on fantrips, Branford Trolley Museum, Code 3 Collectibles. History: Miliary, US, Political,
Rali Lines and Routes and Service history.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Well then! I expect to see you at the PATH WTC station opening and the MannyB North Side reopening.
Choo-Choo: Unlike the re-opening of Exchange Place I am seriously thinking of attending the re-opening of the WTC. If only to shove it to those bastards at Al-Queda.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks Steve: I didn't forget them. They are so many that it sometimes takes me days to research an answer to a post.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I think I might know what you mean, but calling the second one a "BMT Broadway line" is kind of a stretch.
Didn't the original Broadway El end at Cypress Hills? I thought the Jamaica El was just an extension from there to 168th...?
The Broadway Brooklyn Line was built in 1888 from Driggs Ave to Gates Ave. It used the Lexington Ave el portion from Gates to Van Siclen, and then was extended to Crescent St-Cypress Hills in 1893.
Trains did not go across the Williamsburg Bridge until 1908.
The three-track line between the Williamsburg Bridge and Broadway Junction is a distinct entity from the two-track line between Broadway Junction and Jamaica.
Speaking of the Broadway Manhattan line, that line was always one of my favorites, even when I was a kid and it had the cement block tile. Now of course it has renewed appeal with all the old mosaics restored. There's something about it that always interested me though, and yes I even love the orange 49th St station.
It used to be my favorite Manhattan trunk line until I discovered the IRT while in college (before then I was mostly a BMT/IND guy). The Contract One lines and their history and great old stations then won me over. Although I still have a tough time not saying I love the Broadway-Manhattan line the best...and then there's the Nassau Subway - yeah I love that too (I must be sick)...Oh and then there's the Broadway-Brooklyn line....I love that line....uh oh, I love the Sea Beach line......uh oh, what a great line the Rockaway-Fulton line is....okay, let's just leave it that I LOVE the subway, I said it was a hard choice in my profile.
Also, there's also a Broadway-Queens line :-)
Myrtle Ave el
Wuppertal Schwebebahn
Hamburg Trolleys..I believe the only German system with trolley poles.
SF, Bos, Pitt, Phi, Tor, Newark, Kenosha PCC's.
Pike's Peak Cog Railway.
White Pass & Yukon narrow gauge in Alaska.
Marital Status: Too happily married for 16 years. No Children
Other Accomplishments: Completed the NYC Marathon in 1989 and an Ironman Triathlon in 1990.
>Wuppertal Schwebebahn
To all, who visit germany in the future: RIDE IT!!!!
Alan Follett
accomplishments, helped raise two kids as railfans was in news account of final run of CNS&M
other interests history--particularly Byzantine, Georgian, Armenian,
member Rescue Muni a rider advocacy group
Real Name: Al Magnus
Age: 52
Residence: Manhattan, near Union Square and the possibly future SAS
Main occupation: varies with the economic vagaries: software planning => teaching math at Queens College and Cooper Union (looking for job as an actuary)
Connection to New York City (if any): born here, grew up in New Rochelle, have lived here for 24 years of my life.
Favorite System(s): all
Favorite Line(s): 4/5/6 because they come so often
Rail Interests: lines, routes, schedules, technology
Favorite era(s):
Railfan Pursuits:
Rail accomplishments:
Other Hobby Website:
You teach math at both Cooper Union and CUNY?
Then you are indeed the Ultimate math teacher! I salute you, sir, for your affiliation at these august institutions! I am truly in awe.
What are your special math interests (statistics, string theory, algebras...)?
I' a little jealous, you know. I like math, but hit a wall in integral calculus. Pattern-matching problems.
To rub salt in my wound, a $100 calculator can do symbolic integration in a matter of two seconds.
Congrats again on your accomplishments! Insurance companies have a rough ride ahead of them - I am sure they could use somebody like you...
At least your commute probably isn't quite as long as mine. I should be in bed by now.
You wouldn't happen to be teaching calculus, would you? :)
I gave a quiz last week. Top score, of about 90 students, was 92. I gave the same quiz yesterday to a high school sophomore who happens to be a SubTalker. He got 98, and if I weren't such a picky grader he would have gotten 100. This is PROFF that posting to SubTalk enhances one's intelligence (or, more likely, that SubTalk attracts intelligent posters).
Math is as poetic and beautiful as any language (especially natural logarithms).
To be fair, I hated math until my fifth grade teacher demonstrated its beauty. If only I were another Mr. Somer.
?
:-)
I'm doing sequences in one of my classes. I'm thinking of tossing this one on an exam: 8, 14, 23, 28, 34, 42 -- what's next?
They don't have the answer.
PS: Take the first row of the square and put it behind the last - still
magic
--Mark
LMAO!!! Go for it! They'll smell a rat immediately when there are differences of 6,9,5,6,8!
81 is a number :P
How about this sequence: 4, 14, 23, 34, 42, -3, 7, 59, ...
(Okay, we switched tracks in the middle.)
4, 34, 42, 50, 7, 59, 125, 145, and was asked what was the next number in sequence (he told us it was 155.8, but I told him he might be wrong because in some instances the next number would be null because it may be Tremont Ave).
Are you going to the SF hearing at Bowling Green later today? I may be there after 6 PM.
That LL train sang out dual pitches every time it started up at a station. The best analogy I can think of is fighter plane footage from WWII. Those sounds were also heard on McHale's Navy episodes.
That big gear was your speedometer, and since I didn't put arnines on the ground even during the worst of maintenance, good enough for me. Did manage to put ONE on the ground though in the yahd. :)
Because you cannot have 8.7, 14.7, 23.7 because Broadway is not a numeral.
Calculus, Linear Algebra, Probability, Differential Equations.
No more time for Subtalk.
Railfanning, too. Aside from my commute, I haven't ridden the subway at all, except a week ago Sunday (railfanning), and this Sunday at Branford, if that counts. Today I took a different route home from work for variety. I'm not sure I remember what a Redbird looks like anymore; I haven't been on the 7 in about a month.
Property/Casualty or Life? There are Fellows of both societies that post to this board. Feel free to e-mail me for more info.
CG
:0)
Real Name: Dwayne Crosland
Age: 29
Main Occupation: Mail Clerk
Connection to New York: Live in Long Island City all my life
Favorite Transit Systems: (1) New York, (2) Philadelphia, (3) Toronto, (4) Chicago
Favorite Lines: Used to be the #7 Flushing line--I know it very well, my fascination with subways stemmed from my growing up riding the Flusing line, and was this was the line I experiemented with when I first started creating various fictional subway route patterns. Currently I have no favorite line.
Rail Interests: Subways, local commuter rail (LIRR, Metro North and New Jersey Transit), Light Rail, abandoned rail lines and stations, transit history, creating various transit scenarios, subway rolling stock
Favorite Transit Era: the Dual Contracts, the 1950-1970's
Favorite Subway Cars: The Redbirds and the R32's
Railfan Pursuits: Collecting books on NYC subway history; I'm currently exploring subway history on transit systems around the world, and I'm working on an imaginary NYC subway "expansion" project that is based on the extensive growth of rapid transit in the city and local suburbs of the Metropolitan area that is depicted in a historical context. Some posters on this board have read some of the documents I've written on this project by request. I hope to have it all completed late next year.
Railfan Accomplishments: Nothing spectacular, except in 1995, when I ridden the L train for the first time, making that the last line--except for the Franklin Ave Shuttle--that I've never been on.
Transit Site: None yet, but I'm planning to create one that will feature my current tranist project. The theme of this planned site is "fictional transit systems" and "alternate service patterns/reroutes" of current transit systems. Ideally this would be a site where railfans who like to create subway routes of various systmes--and from what I've seen on this board, there have been many routing proposals by various posters, who may find this useful--and they will be able to either send their ideas, maps, drawings, etc. to me and I will upload them into the site.
Other: My handle, Xtrainexp., is base don one of my fictional subway routes in my transit project. The X train "is" an extensive route that serves all five boroughs of NYC, with extensions into the suburbs, and was once conceived of as a major "super express" line--though that is no longer the case--with the Broadway line serving as its Manhattan trunk line.
Handle: Namjak
Real Name: William Middleton III
Age: 22
Residence: Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, NY & Logan Circle, Washington D.C.
Main occupation: Physics/Computer Engineering
Connection to New York City (if any): I came back to America via NYC and lived in Southside Jamaica Queens.
Favoite System(s): BMT/IRT/IND, WMATA Red Line
Favorite Line(s): IND Queens Blvd.
Rail Interests: Els, Light Rails, Maglevs and other high speed heavy rails.
Favorite era(s): 1960s
Railfan Pursuits: Riding, history and photography
Rail accomplishments: Hmm, noen really. Besides knowing more about trains than all my friends (yet palling in comparison to the knowledge here)
Other Hobby Website: http://www.radicaldreamer.org/ (just a personal site)
:-) Andrew
UnkieVince
How would you describe your relationship with Selkirk TMO ? Symbiosis, mutual parasitism, mutual admiration society ? SubTalk's Odd Couple ? Or are you SubTalk's version of Star Trek's good and bad Lazarus from "The Alternative Factor", whose eternal death struggle safeguards the railfan universe from annihilation ?
I always thought the fun of railfanning is discovering some of these things on your own or hearing them from a more experienced railfan.
Please not....
Kirks' solution was to shove both out the air lock.
I dinna think we need to do that to CC LOCAL.
I have been searching up and down for many years looking for BRT construction photos from 1915-1917 when the West End was constructed. I only have a few from the open cut connector along the former ROW of the SBRR.
Any ideas where I can obtain them? There must be a record somewhere...Uruqhart was the BRT photographer at this time....but databases, libraries...nothing.
Thanks for any help or if you can point me in the right way.
Al
I also have actual el construction photos of the third tracking of the Broadway and Fulton lines (also Fulton demolition and area restoration) and of the construction of the Sea Beach and 4th Avenue routes. There are probably 800-1000 photos in all.
For the IRT, I have pre-construction and construction photos of the first subway, some extremely detailed.
Because of a lack of time on my part, I can’t issue a list at the moment, so if anyone else is interested in purchasing these photos, I’d suggest you e-mail me at: JPSPCC699Auction@AOL.com.
Taken at Landover Division Garage
You can get in, but you can't get out.
(Also, the federal govt is closed in the DC area.)
Sounds like they should just shut the city down for a day or two. If the federal government is closed, what's the point?
I know DC is an "early" town relative to NYC, with people arriving at and leaving from work earlier than here. But they won't be leaving that early. Sound like you can get to work, but not home.
Might as well shut down at 6AM.
OTOH, you have tyrant German/Italian bosses from hell like mine, who'll have me working, even if I have to power the network by shoveling coal or pedaling a bicycle... (I work for myself, and from home.) [giggle]
Mom was RIGHT! Every cloud DOES have a silver lining. :)
Man, what a world we live in!!!!
;-D
I also have actual el construction photos of the third tracking of the Broadway and Fulton lines (also Fulton demolition and area restoration) and of the construction of the Sea Beach and 4th Avenue routes. There are probably 800-1000 photos in all.
For the IRT, I have pre-construction and construction photos of the first subway, some extremely detailed.
Because of a lack of time on my part, I can’t issue a list at the moment, so if anyone else is interested in purchasing these photos, I’d suggest you e-mail me at: JPSPCC699Auction@AOL.com.
>it should have been closer to an express station
All stations between Times Sq and QBP are express stops - so Hunterspoint
Av is also one.
It isn't like extra switches would help the problem in some cases:
Hypothetical:
It's 4 PM on a weekday and a Manhattan bound 7 train breaks down at 52nd street. Trains can't use the 69th street interlocking to get around the train anyway. The switch puts the trains on the express track, which at that time is going on the opposite direction. A delay at the wrong time at the wrong place makes the switches useless as a solution anyway.
The solution is trains that break down less frequently, which is the case with the R-62a's.
There are worse stretches in the system without switches...
The Lexington avenue express has a long stretch from 42nd street to 125th street. A breakdown somewhere in there can be fatal for tailing trains that have wandered past the switch. This has happened to me. I was stuck on an uptown 5 train which was trapped by a broken down train. We were between 59th and 86th, miles away from a switch to the local track.
Simple solution: Have Main St-bound 7 Expresses run local from QBP to 61, express afterwards, and have Manhattan-bound trains switch to the express at 69th.
The track layout at Fisk Interlocking is as follows:
^ ^ ^ to 61 St
| | |
| | |
|\|\|
| | |
|/|/|
| | |-69th St
v v v to Flushing
Wouldn't be much of a problem. It would provide extra service Flushing-bound to the stations which Manhattan-bound trains would bypass, and add only a couple of minutes to travel time.
Err, that's what they do already. Or we just send the expresses up all the way.
The problem isn't so much the switches but the headway. Basically one train gets heavy riding and 3 trains are on top of each other before you know it. Add to that some train crews for some reason unknown to me really don't like to report they're having a problem. So they sit there and make the problem worse.
> It would seem to me that a few switches placed in the right locations between these two stations, would eliminate a LOT of delays
There are so many factors that contribute to a delay I don't think that more switches are really the answer.
&t; There are, I believe, only switches at or near the express stations.
It happens to be that way, but they probably chose key locations when they designed the system. Hunterspoint Ave may have been more convenient when the line was designed. Maybe with the switches north of QBP anything just south of the station would have been ineffective in the case of delay.
I meant up the local track all the way to Main Street.
But the problem is not confined to the Flushing line, the Brighton line has no interlocking and switches between north of Parkside Ave to south of Kings Highway. The Lexington IRT has no switches between express and local from north of GC to south of 125th st but unlike the Brighton and Flushing lines, the switching problems are due to the physical structure of the East side IRT (bi-level tracks).
After riding the 6 uptown on Sunday, got off at 51st. When I returned about an hour later to go back downtown, swiped card and said "GO 1 XFER". I was suprised to see this and wondered if this was just some weekend anomaly. Tried it again today (rode 6 uptown, transfers to 4, got off at GC and waled 9 blocks for exercise), swiped at 51st station and did the same thing. Doesn't show up on map as free transfer, but it is! Any other stations that this exists for that aren't listed?
Once all the construction ends (when or if ever) that free trasnfer will end.
Court Square / 23rd-Ely complex
45th Road
63/Lex
59/Lex
51-53/Lex complex
Avenue X
Brighton Beach (with optional intermediate B68 ride)
Stillwell (with optional intermediate B68 ride)
There may be others.
robert
I would love to see that R-1 design. Maybe I can match it up on the patent database.
Here's the link the the LL Bean page with the catalog cover:
http://www.llbean.com/shop/shopByCatalog/QR/p1qr.html
Jimmy
Jimmy
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach----Fort Hamilton Parkway
Haven't stepped foot onto the Sea Beach since then.
I can see why you haven't set foot on the Sea-Beach, Fort Hamilton Parkway/62nd st station kinda makes you want to forget about the whole subway system altogether. I hope you brought an empty doggie bag witt you on your ride there because you would have to use it once you get there.
On this basis I'm going to throw my hat into the pro-Sea Beach camp.
: )
Mark
Mark
You ride the Sea Beach line yourself, if I suspect that is true, then you will quickly take you hat back after the ride.
My only two rides on the Sea Beach were on the same day in August 2000 and those two rides ought to make you very jealous- The first time I rode on the Sea Beach back was on accident, it was a B train that was diverted and we went all the way down to Coney Island via the Sea Beach Express. So just my luck that I was able to recreate the NX. I must admit, we really wern't traveling fast, maybe no more than 20 mph, it was still a rare treat. On the way back from Coney Island, I was on the N and it did its regular Sea Beach route, but we were diverted to 6th Av, which means we went across the MannyB. Two of your fantasies done on the same day!
As for Atlanta, we have two mainlines and four routes. It's mostly above gorund, elevated or ground level. The major underground portions are downtown. This photo from East Point station actually reminds me of the Sea Beach and its short tunnels.
Dude, that's like something out of Engrish.com! Also, maybe I don't want to proclaim my love for your train, maybe I want my own train, or at least one that I can share with a group of people collectively.
Sorry, actually I've never ridden the See Bits line, but I did like the Brighton when I rode it all the way to Prospect Park(!). Based on this, as well as the current trend to politicians where experience and/or intelligence is not only not neccessary, it appears to be unwanted, I am appointing myself Brooklyn Subway-Expert, and I say the Brighton is better. As BS-E what I say goes, the Brighton is better, shut up See Bits fans, now lets move onto important things, like speculating on what lines the as yet unbuilt R160s will be going to, or griping because the 40 year old well worn subway cars are being retired.
Oh yeah, with power as BS-E
Incidentally, the Wall Street Deli (two locations in downtown Los Angeles) now features Nathan's hot dogs. One of the offerings is "The Cyclone".
I'm still, first and foremost, a Brighton fan, because my memories from childhood are tied up with that line. However, I feel very protective of all of the BMT Southern Division lines, and want to make sure that they don't get shafted by the TA and their love affair with John Hylan's IND.
--mark
This is too much!
I'm honored LOL. Anyway that would be a hit CD I'm sure and Fred's single would be a monster hit indeed ;-D.
Really though ... I've GOT an excuse for being like this. I worked for the Teeyay and banged my head in an arnine collision ... the rest of these jamokes got some 'splaining to do. Heh.
As long as I get to work the cameras, otherwise I'll write to the FCC.
R-32.
Would be nice if it's free..
The handbill says they'll start out at the "J" version of Chambers Street with "different routes each day".
Will probably have a few seats left the day of the trip at $40 each.
End of shameless plug for MOD.
I also got photos of LO&S motor car #10.
wayne
Strasburg has signed a deal with the company that has the rights to Thomas the Tank Engine to build up to 4 more Thomases, including a 3 foot gauge one. (For Durango & Silverton, East Broad Top and other narrow gauge operations?)
You're exactly right on that - there are four standard gauge Thomases, including one *actual* steam engine and three shells, and a narrow gauge version (also a shell). All four of these were built by Strasburg Railroad in 2001 and went into service in 2002. The ex-BEDT engine is based at Strasburg, one replica is based at the Great Smokey Mountain Railroad, one is based at the Illinois Railway Museum, and one is based at a western museum - I don't know which one.
Frank Hicks
Those are fireless cookers. A tank engine carries its coal and water on board instead of in a separate tender.
wayne
I have seven different Thomas soft-cover books. These are the ones with the photograhpic illustrations.
wayne
go here to see the REBIRDS on the move
http://techno79.20m.com/mcjpg30.zip
I know i'm not the only one who doesn't have/can't find these since media player doesn't find them automatically either. Real easy set-up, no memory, etc.
Note: I have hosted this file because I originally found it on a russian codec list site with sleezy banner ads. On reading the readme file it is written by a german guy/company. Apparently it is shareware with a 45minute viewing limit. Because of this I felt there should be no problem in me hosting it with a link for railfans to download it to view train videos taken with digicams.
ALways remember to virus scan, my computer hasn't blown up yet, but you never know!
Mark
: )
Certainly one my favorite aspects of transit is how it relates to urban planning, land-use patterns, and modes of living; and in turn how that affects the liveliness and health of a city. New York, which is already very urban and lively, and has great transit suited for dense living doesn't provide quite as much fodder for that kind of discussion as do other cities which are much less dense and much more car-oriented, coming to consider other models, and trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves when lots old sprawl style concrete is already in place. So I like it that there are lots of people from lots of different places on the board so I can read about those stories as well as things New York.
Mark
That's what I like about this board, it's a one stop place for *real* information about anything, without bs.
Two example from "ax the tax" Orlando out of 30+ that are even worse. I have to have an IQ to beleive this garbage.
"FACT: The consultants have conceded to public officials in Winter Park and Maitland, that essential services such as fire, police, and ambulance service will be delayed when the trains cross streets. "
Unlike the 50-100 freight trains that cut the city in half today. Only city in the country with this feature.
"FACT: Light rail has been linked to the increase in CRIME, both at the stations that serve the communities, and in the neighborhoods themselves. In Baltimore and Philadelphia, crime rates rose as a result of mass transit intrusions into neighborhood communities. We have no way of forecasting what impact it may have on our neighborhoods, but experience teaches that what has happened elsewhere will probably happen here as well.
We are no longer exempt from gangs or juvenile crime. An inexpensive transportation system that conveniently brings strangers into our neighborhood could be come a conduit for crime."
Orlando doesn't have an area called the "badlands" like philly does, nor does every election revolve around crime and politicians beating each other up. Plus, like LA, in a car culture, the juvenile's doing the crime ALL have cars too, it's a real easy state to get one. It's not as if they aren't mobile.
The "facts" keep getting worse on the list. This is why i love this board. It's Clearcut, concise, interesting, informative, and doesn't have any half-truths.
Whew! Glad I took a pic of the interior while I still could!
:(
Yes, I've very glad I got a whole slew of pics a few weeks ago.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/wtc/nyc-pathtour0917,0,5032827.realvideo?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Libeskind's New World Trade Center Design
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-wtc0918,0,7979289.story?coll=ny-homepage-promo
Check out the slide show. The EIS for the whole plan should be dene by the summer of 2004. Related construction is already in progress, and off-site buildings, like the 52 story 7 World Trade Center, are going up or being rehabbed as we speak.
Or an R-166 with its field shunting restored.
or maybe you heard this?
Sometimes earthquakes will make noise, even if they're not felt. But I would think that even a minor earthquake would have been reported in the news, so maybe some sort of military air exercise is a more likely answer.
No shaking. It probably was caused by military aircraft.
It could have been a military craft or concorde which even at subsonic speed are very loud.
Also, we had millitary aircraft fly over our school once, pretty scary. Everyone outside was flippin out.
--Mark
It wasn't a work train or anything like that, the 62's were signed as "7" trains. Just thought this was interesting and that I would share.
Any idea where they'd be going, and why they'd have the one redbird on there? I'm pretty sure there was only one, and I didn't get any car #'s or anything like that.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The reason: lack of federal money to keep Amtrak funded.
"WASHINGTON, Sept. 16 - Six Amtrak unions are to announce on Wednesday that they will stop work on Oct. 3, shutting the railroad for the day, to protest Congress's failure to pass a $1.8 billion appropriation for the railroad for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1."
In a statement, David Gunn said he expects all workers to honor their contracts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/17/politics/17AMTR.html?ex=1064376000&en=9419d76c8822fad8&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
Either way, I think it's a smart move on their part. Congress needs to realize that if treated right, Amtrak can be succesful.
If I were "between jobs", you think I would have time for Subtalk?
AEM7
Maybe Gunn should have asked for $3 billion, and then settled for half...
As for 12-9's, that's something real personal to me and I must confess, I've never been able to cope with it. Lost one of my BEST partners when a leaper went under at 34/6 back in 1970. Wasn't bad enough that the moron SMILED at him as he took the swan dive. Nope, he had to bounce off (and BREAK) the windshield with a bigger smile that my buddy just completely lost it over.
And as though THAT wasn't bad enough, then he had to go down, like a puppt facing a rolled up newspaper ("LOOK what YOU did!") and "find the meat" ... you'd THINK the TA would make someone ELSE do that. :(
They really DON'T prepare you for that in schoolcar (I was lucky, I didn't stay on long enough to collect my personal 12-9, but they say that you can expect 2-3 of them if you get to retirement) and they sure as HELL don't help you out much when it happens (and it WILL) ... some current friends who wish to remain nameless are dealing with the aftermath as I type. "Find the meat" is the only way I can cope with it myself. :(
Every time I see someone here though talk about how EASY it is to work the rails, I just wanna slap 'em. It AIN'T as easy as it looks, and for so many things that go with the territory, it DOESN'T pay enough.
Judging by the recent posts, it seems CC Local has befriended you. Doesn't he remind you of a homeless pooch following you around everywhere, tail frantically wagging ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'd still rather have friends than having to watch my back. And to think - all those years in breadcasting, never developed my own cult. Figures I'd have to hang out with foamers before THAT happened. Heh.
Now if only Unca Heypaul would show up ... a few toots on his magic flute and everyone's off to the sea. ;)
Courtesy of Ren & Stimpy ...
Don't Whiz On The Electric Fence lyrics:
(Charlie Brissette/Tom Armbruster/John Kricfalusi)
When nature's callin'
Don't be stallin'
Use your common sense
Before you let it flow
Find a place to go
Just don't whiz on the electric fence
If you're gonna explode
You can use the commode
Of igloos, cave dwellings or tents
No need to explain when you gotta drain
Just don't whiz on the electric fence
You can swizzle on the sofa
Piddle in the air
Tinkle in the toilet
That's why it is there
You can let it rain
In the breakfast lane
While waving at ladies and gents
Just don't whiz on...
Don't whiz on
Don't whiz on the electric fence.
No! No! No! No! No!
An MP3 of this whole tune was posted on ANGELFIRE, but you know how Angelfire is ... someone visited that site last week, so it's unavailable ... bookmark this and try in a day or three ... but all the popup advertisements are there. :(
http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/RenAndStimpy/whiz.mp3
No disappointment, just kidding !
Bill "Newkirk"
Uhh........you're not gonna call me NEWKOIK, are you ? heh !
Bill "Nookirk"
Gotta admire the sense of humor in CC... :)
some GET IT some DON'T.
Pity those who DON'T.
NO MATTER how many times I try to tell people this exact thing....
they NEVER seem to "Get it" or understand WHY we must do so...
I subscribe to that very belief.
I have a list of about 32353438728 I wish to convert.
MOOvin On..
Youse guys at Branford are sick puppies. Made me feel RIGHT at home!
The B buse is on Mount Royal Avenue.
Anything else?
Instead of building an entirely new station, keep the existing station with the historic loop, but add improvements:
- Extension of the platform to 10 cars
- Modification of gap fillers to accomidate R142's as well as R62's (if not already done)
- Platform edge partition (like on the London Underground's Jubilee Line (photo from Canary Wharf station)), which would also include a noise reducing feature, so the squeal of the train as it rounds the curve is not heard as much by people on the platform.
Now for those wondering about this platform edge partition, here's how it'd work:
Once the gap fillers extend, the platform doors open, and the train doors open (not synchronous). When the train is ready to leave, the conductor pushes a button to shut the platform doors. Once they're closed, an "all clear" light comes on, telling the train crew to close up the train and get it out of there. Gap fillers would still operate as currently implemented, however, dwell times at that station would be reduced because all 10 cars of the train would platform, thus eliminating the need for the train to stay longer for passengers in the back of the train who want to leave the train.
The link omits the location, it's at the U.S. Customs House at Bowling Green, across from Bowling Green park/Peter Minuit plaza. Earlier this week, the film crew for the NBC television series "Third Watch" were in front of the building to do some filming for an upcoming episode there.
Whilst the train is settling in the curve, the back-end geese
tend to be lined up in the sixth car and make for the doors in the fifth
in a cluster fashion... so they've drained out (mostly) when the uptown geese are boarding and taking their possession of the
back 5 cars...
This changeover happens in a matter of SECONDS... so it's not viable the
geese in the back 5 cars take up THAT MUCH TIME to vacate train at SF.
Extending the platform to cover the 10 cars would be nice... but I reckon
a portion of that platform would have 2 be straight since IIRC the tunnel approach from
Rector St. is partly straight.... so the gap fillers would only need
serve front 5 on the 1 and 9.
Kewl.
Photo from Existing RR Stations in New York State.
My understanding is that DCP wants to rezone the area along the east river, while leaving the more heavily industrial area along Newtown Creek in the East Williamsburg Industrial Park alone. Even if the area around the terminal were rezoned, I wouldn't expect competition from other uses for a long, long time in that area.
As close to a roller coaster as you'll find on a standard railroad.
Call it "Brooklyn's Unknown El."
Who owns the "el" structure today ? The MTA, the City or New York City Transit ? I was told the BMT once owned the Atlantic Ave "el" many years ago. Shed some light on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This came about because of an odd shuffling back and forth in the days when the LIRR didn't know what the story was going to be for it in Brooklyn. The Brooklyn & Jamaica lease ended up in the hands of a road (not the LIRR) that was absorbed by the BRT--hence the Atlantic Avenue Line became a BRT/BMT property, leased to the LIRR. When the City acquired the BMT, it acquired the Atlantic Avenue Line also.
In any event, too bad it isn't buried. Though it's cool that the rail is close to the edge and the LIRR trains overhand the street. It looks like they are going to fall off.
Originally there were.
If I can read the tiny print correctly, stops were:
Flatbush Av
Vanderbilt Av
Grand Av
Bedford (Junction) - where the Brighton Line used to diverge
Nostrand Av
Brooklyn Av
Kingston Av
Troy Av
Utica Av
Ralph Av
Saratoga Av
Rockaway Av
ENY
Howard House
Penn Av
Van Sicklen Av
Linwood St
Norwood Av
Crescent St
City Line
Union Center
Woodhaven
Woodhaven Junction - where the Rockaway Line used to diverge
Chester Park
Clarxonville (this one is really semi-illegible, so I may have misread it!)
Morris Park
Irunton (semi-illegible) - Montauk Line merges
Jamaica Cross - line via Woodside merges
Jamaica - line via Locust Manor diverges
NY Av
Canal St
Rockaway Junction - line via St Alban's diverges
Hollis
etc
What can I say, perhaps we'll get the day off from work tomorrow.:)
Mark
If someone happens to be near that door and it opens and they fall out on a curve.... (I don't think I have to say anymore).
They are also responsible for reporting broken windows, flat wheels, etc for maintenance. I've often reported these items and they have hardly ever cared...
AEM7
I giggle in hysterics when I look at the photo you took of
Kool-D being locked out on an r-44 door during our rizzide on 7/24...
Ahhhh.
Philly had both WH and GE cars, but I'm guessing that SEPTA preferred the GE's based on the fact that most of the cars that they retained in storage at Luzerne were GE's. That's just a guess, though. Of course, there was also a smaller number of KCPS cars, and rebuilding all of them wouldn't have produced enough cars - so you'd end up with multiple types going through the GOH program.
Frank Hicks
My guess is that it probably had more to do with the funding source that limited the scope of the GOH to the 2100/2700's.
Seriously, this is a good question, I'll ask the folks who were there at the time.
SEPT. 18, AS OF 2:00 PM:
Amtrak continues to closely monitor Hurricane Isabel and to make modifications to its services in the interest of passenger safety. For the most updated information, customers may call 1-800-USA-RAIL. Amtrak will reaccommodate passengers as services permit and will waive exchange and cancellation fees for affected trains.
In addition to previously announced adjustments to train schedules for today, Amtrak will make the following changes to train schedules on Thursday, Sept. 18 and Friday Sept. 19:
NORTHEAST CORRIDOR: Amtrak plans to maintain service on the Northeast Corridor between Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston on Thursday and Friday However, on Thursday afternoon, service between Washington and New York will be modified to reduce the number of trains on the railroad during the height of the storm.
While subject to change, Amtrak Regional, Metroliner and Acela Express trains will generally operate on a normal schedule until 4:30 p.m. today. Thereafter, northbound departures from Washington will be offered at 5:37 p.m., 6:25 p.m., 7:10 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. Southbound trains from New York to Washington will be offered at 5:00 p.m., 5:09 p.m., 5:39 p.m., 6:20 p.m., 7:35 p.m., 9:35 p.m. and 2:35 a.m. In addition, Clocker and Keystone service between New York, Philadelphia and Harrisburg will operate normally Thursday evening.
Specific Northeast Corridor schedule adjustments for Thursday are listed below.
Acela Express trains 2171, 2173 and 2175 will terminate in New York instead of Washington.
Acela Express trains 2112, 2114 and 2118 are cancelled from Washington to New York.
Metroliner trains 117, 123 and 125 are cancelled New York to Washington.
Metroliner trains 122 and 126 are cancelled Washington to New York.
Regional trains 187 and 177 are cancelled from New York to Washington.
Regional train 198 is cancelled from Washington to New York.
The southbound Vermonter (train 55) from St. Albans, Vt. will terminate in New York instead of Washington.
SERVICE SUSPENSION IN THE SOUTHEAST: All Amtrak service south of Washington, D.C., has been cancelled on Thursday, Sept. 18 and Friday, Sept. 19. However, Amtrak will operate intra-Florida service representing trains 90 and 97 between Miami and Jacksonville only.
NORTHEAST TRAINS TO/FROM POINTS WEST: All trains between Chicago and points east are cancelled on Thursday, Sept. 18, including the Capitol Limited, Cardinal, Lake Shore Limited, and Three Rivers.
This makes no sense. That's 5 trainsets headed South and 3 headed North. Where did the other two go?
AEM7
David
Job 1825: 424 R-36 subway cars/General Steel trucks/9346-9769/New York City Transit Authority/Contract 11/30/62; Shipped 8/23/63-8/7/64
David
For the BMT: R16s, R27s, R30s--same design, different size.
#3 West End JEff
#3 West End Jeff
Hope the e_mouse is OK and well.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
That's what I've been trying to say.
Were they ever retrofitted with airconditioning?
If not, then that was the reason: They wanted a 100% A/C'd fleet, and to retrofit them after the GOH would have been a disaster.
Elias
The cars were retired because ridership levels at the time (early 1990s) did not justify keeping them around, especially since the GOH program was winding down (meaning the fleet had become more reliable and a "float" to support GOH-related car unavailability was no longer needed).
As to SubTalker speculation that NYCT was inaccurate in its estimates of future ridership, bear in mind that NYCT was just starting to install automated fare collection equipment in 1993 and the fare package that went along with it once the project was completed in 1997 ("One City, One Fare") hadn't even been thought of at the time.
David
How is it that R-36's were not to heavy to retrofit with AC, but R-30's were? Aren't they more or less the same?
Hypothetically speaking, would a 6-car train of R-36's weigh less than a 5-car train of R-30's?
We are not looking at the weight of the train. We are looking on the loadings per axel.
A 9.5'x50' steel car weighs less than a 10'x60' car. They all have four axels each. End of Story.
Elias
As to when the cars were scrapped, I remember there was some talk at the time the cars were being retired about their being retained in case ridership bounced back, but I'm pretty sure they were gone by the time MetroCard discounts came along in 1997 and ridership soared.
David
til next time
I remember (That is I was told of riding, and somewhat recall it) riding the Third Avenue El (in Manhattan) when I was little.
I remember seeing my firt R-27s and R30s on the BMT.
When I entered the Navy in 1966 I remember riding to Whitehall street on an R30, its warm pink interior. (I had gone into the city with my dad on the LIRR, and then went down into the subway for the trip to Whitehall) I was almost alone in the car, I had proped my feet up on one of the poles as the train rumbled down the local track, wondering what in the world I was getting myself into.
After some processing at Whitehall Street, they took us to Penn Station and put us on a train (sleeper accomodations) to Chicago. We were told we would be met there.
Elias
Yup! I remember dad taking me in there while they were tearing it down. I don't remember much about it except that it was dirty.
Elias
Take a look at the front cover of my 2004 NYC Subway Calendar. Since we're so used to seeing the IRT Redbirds, the R-30 Redbirds look huge in comparision to their IRT sisters.
Bill "Newkirk"
I also recall seeing an R-30 around 1995 layed up in Coney Island Yard signed as a C (what was up with that? Were they really around that long?)
RR-Broadway 4th Ave Local
N- Broadway Sea Beach
T- Broadway West End
Q- Broadway Brighton
QB-Broadway Brighton via Bridge
QT-Broadway Brighton vai Tunnel
Thanks much in advance.
John
Also, the federal government has never funded transit and the city has been gradually nipping their TTC funding with each budget they pass. The TTC has been screwed financially for the last 8 years and it's making itself felt. Anybody expecting otherwise is being unreasonable.
-Robert King
I was in Toronto in the last few years (not this summer - I was out in Colorado). The QUEEN line was getting a major rebuild on the east end. It was being rebuilt from the ground up. I think that the Queensway section had also been rebuilt previously. There are parts of Lakeshore Blvd. that were being rebuilt also. At least the QUEEN line should be in good shape for years to come.
The last time I was in Toronto was in 2001. In general, I did not find the trolley system as bad as you are finding it now. I am sorry to learn of this. In the many years (twenty or thirty years) that I have gone to Toronto, I always found the TTC to be a first class operation. I hope that the Provincial and Federal Governments appreciate the treasure that they have in the TTC.
I'm so glad to hear that most of the track is due to be replaced by 2005. I know that the eastern section of Carlton was replaced this summer, so maybe the rest of that line will be next? I also heard from a friend that St. Clair is due to get an overhaul with private ROW ala Spadina and an extension to Runnymeade and Jane. Is there any truth to this? It seems like St. Clair is the kind of street that could easily support such a change and would greatly benefit by it.
I LOVE the TTC system and the streetcars in particular, so I really hope that government funding is forthcoming soon. To let such a fine system deteriorate is a crime. The City and Provincial governments should wake up and realize what a treasure they have. And by the way, kudos on the subway system! I think it is the finest that I've ever ridden on.
Thanks again in advance for the info.
John
ttfn
John
Keep up the good work up there -- aay.
Also, I don't think the private way on St. Clair's been approved yet; this is why they deferred rebuilding the line for a year, so they could continue to push for the private way. Also, I hadn't heard of the extension to Jane St. being approved yet.
What the TTC needs to do is get a streetcar rail grinder otherwise all this new track their installing will be beat up and noisy in a few years. If you want to see corrugated rail, look at the curve where College St. crosses Crawford St. in the Italian area. That's been begging for a few passes with a rail grinder for a couple of years now - the rumble from streetcars passing over it always amazes me when I get off there to visit family.
-Robert King
All likelihood, I'm gonna be 1 of the mourners.
1. Run the (3) to Dyre with the (5) and run the <5> to E 241 with the (2), this way each line and stop will have both direct Local(7th) service and Express(Lexington) service
2. Run the (3) to E 238th Street, but run it express from E 180th Street to Gun Hill Road (while running local below E 180th Street)
3. Run the (3) express from 3 Av to Gun Hill Road, only stopping at E 180th Street(4-5 trains peak) giving people on WPR even more express service, people will get off and wait for the (3) at 238 instead of the <5>(which they will get at 149th Street)
4. Run the (2) and (5) local, but run the (3) and <5> express in the Bronx (3 could go either to Dyre, 238, or 241, if 3 goes to Dyre, <5> will go to 241 to balance the terminal service)
5. Run <5> or (3) express from 3 Av to 241 Street(super express, 2 trains peak)!
WPR needs more service, since Flatbush causes problems with #2, they can use #3 and send some of the service there(like 9/11, but with a bit more trains)
TO CONCLUDE, THE BRONX DOES SEEM UNDERSERVED W/O EXPRESS SERVICE SO DOES ANYONE THINK THAT WPR SHOULD GET THIS EXPRESS OR DOES THE CONCOURSE LINE SHOULD GET THIS?
JONN
1. Run the (3) to Dyre with the (5) and run the <5> to E 241 with the (2), this way each line and stop will have both direct Local(7th) service and Express(Lexington) service
2. Run the (3) to E 238th Street, but run it express from E 180th Street to Gun Hill Road (while running local below E 180th Street)
3. Run the (3) express from 3 Av to Gun Hill Road, only stopping at E 180th Street(4-5 trains peak) giving people on WPR even more express service, people will get off and wait for the (3) at 238 instead of the <5>(which they will get at 149th Street)
4. Run the (2) and (5) local, but run the (3) and <5> express in the Bronx (3 could go either to Dyre, 238, or 241, if 3 goes to Dyre, <5> will go to 241 to balance the terminal service)
5. Run <5> or (3) express from 3 Av to 241 Street(super express, 2 trains peak)!
Take a look
http://www.straphangers.org/announcements/2003
The Straphangers take issue with TA measurements of performance.
I have not been in New York lately, so I can't comment. But previous surveys have been very useful in tracking progress on things like announcement quality and cleanliness.
The methodology is explained pretty clearly, though I would like a few more details.
We'll see how closely the TA is paying attention.
til next time
David
til next time
But those 6 trains that have correct announcements have incorrect signage: Bronx expresses are signed as Manhattan expresses/Bronx locals, and Bronx locals have a terminal of PARKCHESTER AV.
"In three out of every four delays and disruptions experienced by our raters (76%), there was either no announcement—or an inaudible, garbled or useless one. Specifically, 29% were not made at all; 9% were inaudible or garbled; and 39% were rated 'not useful,' such as meaningless announcements that 'we have a red signal' or ones with jargon such as 'we're being held by supervision.'"
What would be more useful for the conductor to say when being held by supervision or a red signal? "We apologize for the unavoidable delay?"
Of course, this assumes that the person making the announcement actually knows the cause of every delay.
Like, "We're picking up track workers" being interpreted as "There's a train in front of us."
For example ( and it's true) - Operating an N of Slants, come to a stop with a red signal ahead, atrack gang just ahead of it, and the ass end of an R in plain sight. the C/R, not knowing what the reason for the stop is, uses the (correct) announcement - "We are delayed because of train traffic ahead of us." Six second pause, followed by pounding on cab door. open door with a cheery "Hi", to get a "What the F*** are we waiting for this time!"
What us riders would really like to know is: Is this a one-time event, and then we're off at full speed, or is this train going to drag along for the next 12 stops with constant delays, or is there a total stoppage up ahead and we're going nowhere.
I agree that usually the crew has no clue. But (a) management could improve its ways of informing the crews, and they've done some work on this in the last few years but not enough; (b) crews could perhaps do more to find out (not sure if they're allowed to ask); (c) sometimes crews do know more but don't say.
Yes. And add, "should I switch to the local at the next stop because it will be lots faster than the express?"
What you seem to forget is that a lot of people need things explained rather simply. "There is a train ahead of us" is better than "we have a red signal."
Not everyone is a railbuff. The Straphangers' Campaign understands that. Maybe you don't.
The basic problem is that in NYCT, as in many bureaucracies, it's not permissible to say "I don't know but I'll let you know when I know".
A useful announcement, which I never expect to hear in my lifetime, would be "We're stopped for a red signal. At this time we don't know the reason. When we know more, we'll let you know."
The ultimate in asininity: the automated announcement that we're being held for arrival of a connecting train, when the train across the platform has already arrived and is disgorging its passengers at this very moment.
True - better timing would help.
: )
Do you know what your server has been doing in its spare time?
Elias
: ) Elias
As of 14:17:42 (EDT) I looked at "Brighton Morning" and got the same message from the firewall "Fragment Attack." Now a few minutes later I'm getting all the pictures no problem including the original "Tree" one.
--Mark
Jimmy
Also: what is the steepest grade possible with high-speed-style track? I know that in France, part of the Sud-Est line encounters 1 in 28.6, but are any lines steeper? Is is feasible to go steeper?
In the NYC subway system, I believe the Manhattan Bridge is the steepest. Smith-9th Sts. to Carroll St. on the (F) may be in second place.
Bill "Newkirk"
If it is the length of the climb, what about the 60th tunnel to QBP upper level? That seems to be a long one.
If it is the angle of the climb, where does the rise from Hunter's Point Ave to the first curve in the Sunnyside train yards rank?
Also what about the climb the # 7 does in the Steinway tubes from the First Avenue switch to the GCT platform ?
Steeper grade on the Queens side I believe.
Angle.
Not to mention that grades aren't measured in angles, but percentages. For one example, a 2% grade means that for every 100 feet you go forward, you go up (or down) 2 feet.
IIRC, you just defined an angle whose tangent is .02 (I took trig in 1958).
A 1 in 28.6 grade (rising 1 foot for every 28.6 feet forward) translates to a 3.46% grade (rising 3.46 feet for every 100 feet forward, hence “percent” nomenclature). There are far steeper grades on the NYCTA—in which case, having all units engined does/did indeed help depending on equipment type.
The steepest grade in the USA of FRA-controlled rail was Saluda Grade in North Carolina, which Norfolk Southern abandoned last year. Ruling grade was 5.03 percent or 1 in 19.9. What with the curves, it would not be terribly easy for HSR operations, though N&W 611 used to climb it from time to time…
til next time
Building a 1:1 railroad on your own property is a dicy deal, although we certainly have enough space for it out here. We have eight miles of fence line around our property. Of course that would have to cross a state highway twice, but something *could* be done, if you have the land and the money.
And there is no asbestos in these cars.
Elias
There's nothing wrong with the seats or lights. More accurately, new body, new frame, new floor...
AMTK will only pull private varnish if it is an all steel car with the proper couplers and is fully inspected by a qualified reairoad inspector (usually another railorad or Amtrak itself).
I am not certain on the fare for pulling it, but I think I have heard numbers in the $200,000 range.
Freight Railroads can also pull them, certainly as freight, but perhaps also with PAX, (they would call it a luxury caboose). But I may be mistaken on this last r/t insurance and liability concerns. Probably depends on the railroad. LIRR, MNRR, and NJT certainly could do it.
Elias
That's just wrong. I could see if you wanted to transport a car on one of those car-racks, either by train or truck, your taking up space. But to charge that for attaching a decommisioned 40year old car being hooked up to the end of a train. I'd even let the crew sleep in there for a discount.
I would figure freight would be the way to go, but from reading how they handle new commuter systems all over the nation, I could see the insurance killing any deal.
I guess the cheapest way is to rent a really big boat trailer.
That's just wrong. I could see if you wanted to transport a car on one of those car-racks, either by train or truck, your taking up space. But to charge that for attaching a decommisioned 40year old car being hooked up to the end of a train. I'd even let the crew sleep in there for a discount.
Transporting as freight on a freight train is rather cheap, but connecting it to a passenger train as part of its consist, with HEP power from the locomotive, and insurance for the car, it's PAX and etc, is quite costly. And of course it does depend on how far you want to go, how many set outs you might rewuire etc. etc.
I do believe that AMTK pulls a daily private coach into NYC, but that is a contract deal, and I think that AMTK even owns the coach.
Elias
I wouldn't count on any of the R160's coming until this question is resolved in five days. Vive l'Alphonse!
* ryan
* ryan
By the same token, this could be used as a test case by the smaller countries and by the EU Commission to test the limits by which a member country can go it alone. Mr. Monti's statement calling for an injuction is fairly strong. This appears to have all the earmarks of becoming a test case. The crack that Mr. Monti is leaving open is that France must seek the EU Commission's permission for such a bailout and as an example of France's good faith they must rescind any "automatic" bailout that might already be in place before seeking such permission.
"Les conditions sont remplies pour enjoindre aux autorités françaises de ne pas mettre en exécution une participation de l'Etat aux fonds propres d'Alstom", a précisé M. Monti. L'injonction sera mise en œuvre, a-t-il ajouté, "sauf si les autorités françaises s'engagent publiquement à ne pas participer à des mesures qui impliqueraient automatiquement et de manière irréversible une participation de l'Etat aux fonds propres du groupe sans approbation préalable de la Commission selon les règles en vigueur".
Vive l'Alphonse!
Bill "Newkirk"
* ryan
It was posted about last night already and throughout the day today.
* ryan
The LIRR Rockaway grade elimination that resulted in the concrete el structure still in use today was also part of this project.
If you take note of the stairway at East NY Station that leads up from the underpass to the EB platform, a sign says (in IND style lettering) "To Rockaways and Jamaica."
however in MNR, when u have to describe a area, DRAWING IS UNNECESSARY. if i am a engineer talking to a rules examiner, all i have to do is this. CP3 is a interlocking on park avenue viaduct at 97th street. there is a automatic signal number 37 in the area. THIS IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE KNOWN! I JUS SAID IT FOR RAILFANS KNOWLEDGE. so CP3 is at 97th street. there are 4 interlocking signals governing northbound trains. they can display a rule 108 PROCEED CAB which is a flashing green. its indication means proceed governed by cab signal indication. or a rule 121 STOP signal which is a double red. it can display absolute block as well, but thats another story. from left to right there are tracks 4,2,1,3 headed northbound lets say. there is a facing point switch named 31A that can take u from 3-1 track. 13B can take u from 3 back to 1 SOUTHBOUND ONLY. if u are going south, u can go from 1-2 track SOUTHBOUND ONLY. if u are going NORTH, u can go from 2-1. this is switch 44A, it can be reversed. if u are going NORTH, u can go from 4-2 NORTHONLY via switch 12A. if u are going SOUTH, u can go from 2-4 track via 24B switch. then there are the signals that govern the southbound trains that close this interlocking at CP3. rule 261 is in effect meaning u can move trains in either direction on any track. it is also noted u must have a FORM M to work on those tracks if u are a trackworker. a Form M is MNR's rule that takes a track out of service similar to Amtrak's Form D.
NOTE, LIRR MAKES U DRAW, BUT MNR DOESNT? INTERESTING!
Metro-North handled the blizzard better than the LIRR did. As for the blackout, that wasn't its fault in many ways, and the stabbings/slashings are basically a consequence of the times in which we live and the places Metro-North serves, in other words not really its fault either.
Wouldn't call it a YEAR.
Jimmy
Need a violin?
IM no one for the next 15 mins while I go to the store to buy food, but then I will come back and you can IM me, Chap11ChooChoo and I will invite you in. Poneemayou?
wayne
* = now Tropical Storm Isabel
Naaah.
The Federal Gov't. is closed again tomorrow. Everything is shut down again. I get to work from home, so its all good for me. I have a link to my office email and I can make my unlimited long distance calls so I can get some stuff done.
My parents in Rockville have no power, though. In the Ballston area Arlington, VA, our lights have been flickering, but that's about it, however, other parts of No. VA are not as fortunate. Our DirecTV dish is still attached to the balcony.
Hopkins totally pussied out and closed for today and tomorrow. My ACM and SF&F Club meetings were cancled which pissed me off to no end and my SPS pizza lunch for tomorrow has been endangered.
As soon as I saw the storm drop to a category 2 b4 landfall and saw how its track was moving so far inland I knew it would fizzle out. I told Other Mike at ACM this and he totally didn't believe me, but it looks like I owe him an I told you so.
Do you know who I blame on this? California. That's right. If it weren't for their dumb ass recall election starving the mass media for some DIFFERENT news, they wouldn't have had to overhype this storm so much.
"For me, this is just like another little rainstorm, but you take what you can get," storm chaser Warren Faidley said as he videotaped the frothy, 15-foot swells on Atlantic Beach, N.C.
He was impressed that in the middle of the hurricane, he was able to get a hot sausage biscuit at a pier right on the beach.
NPR : Commentary:
Tokyo's Subway Sounds
::signs::
Ridin on the Bus
Ridin on the bus
Sittin next to bums
There's an empty seat
Hope that isn't pee
Announcer: What is the last thing you would expect your husband to give you?
Wife: Spending money, the cheap bastard.
Announcer: No, the correct answer is ....
Husband, holding up sign: The Antidote
Wife: What do you mean by that?... (drops dead)
Also liked the Futurama episode where everyone was made stupid by the Brain Spawn
Female News Anchor: A train got crashed in New Jersey today ..... WANNA SEE????
Picture of train pile up.
Female News Anchor: But don't worry. No one will be late for work. The governor lady said she is sending in more trains.
Picture of another train plowing into the wreck, then close up of passengers boarding crashed train.
--Mark
Hear the scream that the turning subway makes
Hear the screams of the people in your way
Mark
til next time
Isabel travelled all that way from the Caribbean just to go to college? Did she get any financial aid?
--Mark
As for graffitti, I can do without it. I just called the cops because a kid in this neighborhood is doing graffitti all over the place. I caught him when I was coming home late one night. I've called the police, and they'll probably catch him in the act this weekend. Graffitti squad takes this stuff seriously.
I've calculated that CC LOCAL has the lowest "photos per post" ratio for the month.
--Mark
--Mark
Why... you HAVEN'T aged a DAY, brah!!! :) :) :p
What about the demoralisation of the travelling public and the staff who had to travel in completely tagged or disfigured trains for the whole of their shift.
A London study (sorry about this) - in the early 1980s commented on the lack of morale of station and depot staff who had to work on the railway when they saw their workplace disfigured constantly.Hard to provide good customer service when working in a slum.
Providing a clean environment is a huge morale boost to all - users and workers.Yes I know blandness is boring !
Having said - its a shame that an old battered and tagged train wasnt kept as a record of the old (bad) days.
This comes from an ex manager on a London commuter railway who used to spend lunchtimes and weekends scrubbing (albeit the few "tags" )off his beloved class 313 EMU sets.Doing that showed hands on management commitment.(as well as a study in not letting standards drop)
wayne
I remember some r40 Slants running on the AA line with NO INTERIOR LIGHTS.
Eerie memory of one rider lighting up a cigarette and having THAT be
the SOLE source of light in the car...
I remember 81st Mus. Natural History station having CARDBOARD boxes lining
the floor of the platform and STRING LIGHTS lighting up the platform
while the walls of the station were SEWAGE BROWN and dark like mad.
Back then, VARIETY REALLY WAS the SPICE OF LIFE.
In another fictional universe (Star Wars) the planet Coruscant is one big city. What are the subways like there ?
-Nigel Tufnel
- Bob Dylan,"A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall"
Jimmy
Yet, I liked this poem I saw, spray-painted on the plastic seats of a 6 train waiting to head uptown from Brooklyn Bridge, in early 1985 :
"After work all day, I ride the "A".
Four thugs with screwdrivers come my way.
And so I say, Go for it, suckers ! And make my day !"
- Bernhard Goetz
I also like my boss's "explanation" of what happened : these four nice boys saw this poor man fooling with his gun, not able to get it to work, and they just happened to have screwdrivers, so they came over to help him, and, unfortunately, the gun went off, killing and crippling some of them.
Four trains on one pic - cool!
Thank you for noticing. It seems to be getting harder and harder to get people here to comment about my photos.
Just a thought.
I still love your photos though. They continue to remind me that I need to get a digital camera.
Did you have some time to go to Famous Pita on CI Avenue? Also you missed a photo opportunity to take a picture of the BRT plaque outside Newkirk Avenue (to the right side facing the S/A booth.)
Up close and personal! Reminds me of when I was on the J this morning, we pulled up close to a R-143 set, it was only 1 signal away, and had its headlights on facing us. Then we switched tracks. That was quite an experience.
Mark
The voters in LA voted down continuing funding. That was easy.
Salaam, you make it sound like someone overlooked a minor detail during planning. You must remember that there was vicious fighting between the pro transit and the anti transit forces. The fact that anything at all was built was a victory for the pro transit faction. It is not at all surprising that they did not get everything they wanted, and one very expensive thing they did not get was the underground connection in the downtown area between the Blue Line and the Pasadena Gold Line.
Tom
Hey Fred, I bet Montague Rathole once had sheltered a beast like that. LOL
I don't think anyone from Houston Texas is on this board. Maybe Houston Street, but not Houston Texas.
*sorry, i've been dying to do some mention about that thread*
Vive l"Alphonse!
I would have flunked french, had I ever turned in a translation that bad. :-)
Personally, I don't see how a $350M loan, which needs to be paid back within two years, could possibly help the company over a proposed majority purchase of Alstom by the Government (31% of it's shares would have been bought making the State the largest shareholder.), especially when the company is more than €5 billion in debt.
Oubliez-le (Fuhgeddaboudit)
I doubt you'll see liquidation -- the plants close, production stops, everyone goes home, and customers join the line in the courtroom. The question is whether bondholders would try to negotiate worse terms with customers. That could be a mistake for them.
Total rainfall at BWI was 2.14" from Isabel.
98% of the flooding was storm surge at high tide.
Media hype (still ongoing here at 7:55 PM) hit an all time high not seen since 9/11.
As to "sausage crafters", wasn't it Otto Von Bismark who said "No one should ever watch sausages or laws being made"? Words to remember.
Coming up on the News at 11:
Live team coverage from our Storm Center, as six inches of snow wallop the state. In other news, the Pentagon has announced that World War Three has begun today with an exchange of nuclear missles.
Is that really the message we want to send? Is public transit a reliable, dependable, efficient way to get around, or is it just a toy?
And yes, the NYC Subways DO shut down in extreme weather, such as blizzards.
Which blizzard did you have in mind? All underground lines and most elevated lines continued running through the blizzards of 2003 and 1996. The vast majority of subway passengers had the service they needed. Up on the street, of course, cars were slipping and sliding every which way.
In dangerous weather conditions, which should be promoted: a controlled transportation network that accomodates many people on each vehicle and is available to anyone who wishes to hop on, or an uncontrolled transportation network that accomodates only one person and perhaps a few of his friends per vehicle and is only available to those who own an expensive piece of equipment and happen to have it stored nearby?
Public transit is a toy. More than 97% of Americans have driver's licences, and been in a private car within the past year. AEM7
Is that the message we want to continue sending?
Transit is a tool for doing a number of things: (1) to help lots of people get around, (2) to promote denser development. In the case of the storm, (1) is moot since no one with the right mind would go outside and people are being asked not to go out anyway, so shutting down transit actually helps the public policy goal of helping to restrain people at home (or wherever they are staying). As for (2), people make decisions on development not based on what happens in a Hurricane but based on how often the service runs normally. If you would make development decisions based on such irrational factors such as "I'd get stranded in a snow/hurricane" when both highway and transit are going to be crippled, then you should get out of the development business cuz you won't make any money.
AEM7
Let's say a year from now I'm living and working in the D.C. area and there's a snowstorm looming. If there's any time I should leave the car at home and take transit, it's when a snowstorm is looming -- I'll be safer on the train, I won't impede snow plows and ambulances on the road, etc. But if I remember what happened yesterday, I'll drive anyway, even if I usually take the train, since I don't want to risk being stranded at work in a snowstorm by a toy transit system.
Is that the message we want to send?
I think that's entirely the wrong attitude. If I were you and in the same situation, I would have called work and said: "I can't get to work, because D.C. Metro is scheduled to shut down this afternoon due to the impending snowstorm and I won't be able to get home. See you Monday." Then I would have spent the morning going out downtown and maybe doing some shopping or whatever I wanted to do, so I could go home before the service ends.
If for whatever reason work decided that I should come in just for the morning, I would be too happy to go to work just for the morning, as long as I left my workplace in time for the train to go home before the system shuts down.
If I'm going to get fired over this kind of thing, it's probably not a workplace where I would want to work. I would never risk my life to go to work, unless my work happens to be a public service that requires to be semi-functional in extreme weather, e.g. TV station, transit property, or emergency services.
I don't think D.C. Metro should have closed entirely. I think they should have gone to hourly headway on all branches past about 11am.
AEM7
Whoops, there's that message again. I want to send the opposite message: that transit is the most dependable way to get around, especially on a day when too many private vehicles on the streets can cause real damage.
Yes. Almost every MBTA train operator and inspector, actually and manager has to drive to work. Train operators sign on before the service starts, as do inspectors, or they sign off after the service ends. Managers that work 7-3 can usually take the service in (and should), but sometimes they need the car to be on-call for incidents.
Most public service jobs that depend on 'on-call' status requires the mobility of an automobile. Other public service jobs, like nurses, postmen, etc that have fixed schedules, can rely on transit.
David, try to think through what you're talking about. Don't just rely on ideologies.
If cars provide superior mobility to transit, it's because we have artificially made the car more mobile than transit. Cars are not intrinsically more mobile than trains.
If the status quo is fine with you, if you're content in thinking of transit as a toy for those who don't have anywhere important to go, then I understand why you see nothing wrong with a blanket transit system shutdown when the weather gets nasty. I hope most of us here think of transit as a serious mode of transportation.
All these points are generally correct.
If cars provide superior mobility to transit, it's because we have artificially made the car more mobile than transit. Cars are not intrinsically more mobile than trains.
No. Car provide superior mobility to transit if space is not at a premium. The only fault of the car is that it expands the space occupied by one person into a large hunk of metal weighing about 3 tons and occupying about 50 sq. ft. The fact is, in most of the U.S., space is not at a premium. Given the kind of residential densities that this country has, and given the ratio of the land area to population, in most locations the car is the optimal (most economic) solution.
If the status quo is fine with you, if you're content in thinking of transit as a toy...
In general, the status quo is economically efficient. My earlier point was that transit should not run (or at least if it is going to run, it should run at much much reduced service levels, e.g. hourly headways), because, during a snowstorm or hurricane, there is not much transportation demand. Transit is good when there is lots of workers all going to work or out to entertainment roughly at the same time and in roughly similar locations. Transit is bad in the case that someone gets called to work in the middle of a snowstorm, and is trying to get to a remote location (such as a railroad yard or the scene of a serious incident).
Transit is not for every transportation need. Transit cannot fulfil every transportation need. Transit is for the masses. The masses isn't going out in the middle of a snowstorm, or at 3 a.m. to start the first train out of the yard at 5 a.m. If there is insufficient demand during a particular time period or to a particular location, transit should either shut down, or run infrequent service.
AEM7
No. If anything, Mass transit is most important during hurricanes and snowstorms. Road conditions are deplorable in such conditions, but people will still need to get places. Additionally, perhaps you were not informed, but many people do not own cars. What should they do? Walk?
Transit is bad in the case that someone gets called to work in the middle of a snowstorm, and is trying to get to a remote location (such as a railroad yard or the scene of a serious incident).
That's a ridiculous argument. All transit employees are given passes for the exact reason that they will never have an excuse about why they couldn't get to work. And don't give me something about people who don't live near transit. Police, Firefighters, Sanitation, DOT, & hospital employees all are expected to make it to work. It's no different for TA workers.
Transit is not for every transportation need. Transit cannot fulfil every transportation need. Transit is for the masses.
You just contradicted yourself. Besides that, while transit may not fulfill every transit need where you live, it does in NYC. It's one reason why people under 18 are not allowed to drive in the city. If you don't live within walking distance of a train, you probably live close to a bus.
Disasters are when transit is most important when we had that recent blizzard, it was the only practical way to get around.
No. If there is a really bad snowstorm going on, or hurricane, you should not go out. You should not drive, and you should not take transit. Non essential trips should cease.
If you must travel, then you should either (a) take your car, and be extra vigilent, or (b) depart earlier, so that the reduced service level of transit would not delay you unduly.
In the country where I came from, this is called common sense. Here they don't seem to have much of it. To expect the transit to run at regular headways when the demand is clearly much lower and when going out of your home is clearly not a prudent course of action, is simple stupidity.
AEM7
Such is the case in rural places. In New York City, people should still be able to take the subway at least. It's protection from the elements makes it the safest means of transport.
In the country where I came from, this is called common sense. Here they don't seem to have much of it. To expect the transit to run at regular headways when the demand is clearly much lower and when going out of your home is clearly not a prudent course of action, is simple stupidity.
I'm not saying that you should expect regular service. But weekend headways would be expected. NYC subway never runs 1-hour headways. Maybe they expect it in your country, but not here.
Less than 12 inches of snow, less than a total blackout, less than a WMD terror attack, you can take the subway. But during the BIG blackout and the 1996 Presidents' day storm you were out of luck, at least for a while. The WTC shut the system down for several hours, and parts of it for several months.
Events of significantly less magnitude wreak havoc with vehicular traffic. Eight or ten inches of snow won't affect the subway very much, but will cause massive traffic delays. Blackouts might shut down the subway, but vehicular traffic will be slowed to a near standstill.
You've been brainwashed by all the media exhortations to stay home. Those media exhortations make sense if your only way around is by car, since driving is a bad idea in the snow -- it's dangerous and it impedes snow plows and emergency vehicles. But what's wrong with walking or taking the train?
The earth doesn't stop spinning whenever it snows. (Don't you live in Boston? I'm surprised you think it does.) There's no reason for most of us to lock ourselves up at home. Some of us deliberately arrange our lives so we're not dependent on cars.
Snow is one very obvious case in which trains are more mobile than cars.
No, I happened to have lived in the Midwest where we have real snowstorms. I can't think of any reason why anybody would want to go to either work or play in the middle of a snowstorm. Family time, David. AEM7
I thought you believed in having fun!
I walked to the hospital in NYC during the Mother of All Winters (1994 or 5, I think) - and then stayed overnight because some of us were Essential Personnel.
That's the spirit! Never let the weather ruin your parade, I say. Bravo for you!
Also, different laditudes get different tpye of weather, not every place is ready for everything. For example, Atlanta comes to a standstill when it snows 2 inches while people in NYC don't even notice. People die in NYC when the temps rise above 90 degrees while Atlantnans don't even notice. The original city in question (DC, by the way, but we forgot about that also) does not get as many snowstorms, so obviously they aren't going to be as well prepared as NYC.
Of course the earth keeps spinning while a disaster is occuring, but for the love of god, can you honestly tell us that you have such a RIGID schedule that you MUST do your normal schedule NO MATTER the conditions?
What point are you really trying to make in this thread?
Everyone agrees transit systems should not run when it would be dangerous or damage their equipment. For example, don't run 3rd rail equipment through 18" of snow, even if you can for a while, because you'll burn out motors.
Everyone also agrees that full schedules are not needed or possible, even where the trains can run. Some transit workers can't make it to work, and there are fewer customers.
Everyone also agrees that there are some activities that are dangerous in snowstorms, like going for a walk alone in a deserted area, where if I trip my body may not be discovered till I've died of hypothermia.
But are you really saying a system should shut down even if it can run safely? Isn't it far better for a nurse who lives in Queens and MUST get to work at a hospital in Manhattan to take a nice comfortable safe undeground E train ride than to have to drive?
I think I was just having an argument for the sake of it. Although in general I agree with your post, I don't think everyone reading this thread agrees. Some people reading this thread thinks you should run transit whenever possible, even when there is little demand, just because they might want to use it someday in the middle of a snowstorm just for a joyride.
The E-train and the nurse: I thought that hourly headways, with timed transfers, should be sufficient to cover that scenario. Some people think every 20 mins -- which might even be okay. There are clearly some people here who think transit should run full-service even when snow or threatening winds are coming.
AEM7
Maybe so, but I guess I never saw any of their posts. All the posts I saw suggested reduced service where safe to provide.
No it's not, the city has a great degree of congestion so rather than restrict driving equally to everyone using various fair methods (eg tolls), they restrict driving of people who cannot vote.
You can say that the subways exist for the same reason that people are not allowed to drive until they've traveled 10,518,052,204 miles around the sun.
No, they restrict driving to those people who can legally sign contracts and be held accountable a adults.
In the US, sub-18 year-olds usually have a fair shot at making it to legal majority, so your complaint is trivial.
This has nothing to do with it. The state allows 16-year olds to have driver's licenses and own cars, which is as far as contractual obligations matter when it comes to driving, besides, the same body of government passes the laws regarding driving and legal majority, so my original point still applies.
In the US, sub-18 year-olds usually have a fair shot at making it to legal majority, so your complaint is trivial.
That a particular group of people is denied "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" is not a trivial matter. It is only trivial in the senile mind of a pompous, arrogant bigot.
Certainly not in inclement weather! All it takes is one idiot who doesn't know what he's doing (and the fact is that there's more than one such idiot out there) to cause a gruesome accident.
The only fault of the car is that it expands the space occupied by one person into a large hunk of metal weighing about 3 tons and occupying about 50 sq. ft.
No, actually, it has other faults. For instance, it pollutes, and it consumes oil. And pretty much any area laid out for optimal vehicular use is not navigable by any other means.
The fact is, in most of the U.S., space is not at a premium.
Really? So there are no traffic jams in most of the U.S.? A traffic jam is caused by insufficient space on the road. (The space may exist somewhere, but it's not in the right place and it's not covered in asphalt, so it isn't of much use to a car.)
Given the kind of residential densities that this country has, and given the ratio of the land area to population, in most locations the car is the optimal (most economic) solution.
No, the optimal (most economic) solution is to stop assuming how people would like to live and building those assumptions into our tax and zoning structures, and to let individuals pay for whichever forms of transportation they wish to use, and no others.
In general, the status quo is economically efficient. My earlier point was that transit should not run (or at least if it is going to run, it should run at much much reduced service levels, e.g. hourly headways), because, during a snowstorm or hurricane, there is not much transportation demand. Transit is good when there is lots of workers all going to work or out to entertainment roughly at the same time and in roughly similar locations. Transit is bad in the case that someone gets called to work in the middle of a snowstorm, and is trying to get to a remote location (such as a railroad yard or the scene of a serious incident).
Transit here in New York is crowded all the time. Weekdays, weekends, rush hours, middays, evenings -- you name it, at least some of the trains in the system are SRO. For about two hours in the middle of the night you'd be hard pressed to find SRO trains, but there isn't much point in shutting down for two hours, and, more to the point, full-time availability of transit is what makes it possible for people to take transit in the first place.
And, once again, transit is excellent in snowstorms. Trains don't skid. Trains don't rely on traction.
Transit is not for every transportation need. Transit cannot fulfil every transportation need. Transit is for the masses. The masses isn't going out in the middle of a snowstorm, or at 3 a.m. to start the first train out of the yard at 5 a.m. If there is insufficient demand during a particular time period or to a particular location, transit should either shut down, or run infrequent service.
FYI, the NYC standard for infrequent service is 20-minute headways.
Right. And although I am not one such expert, I have had enough contact with the experts to know that weather -- snow, flood, and even just very cold weather, causes more problems than you think and far more than you imagine. Thus, I have come to the judgment that operating a normal headway or even weekend headway when demand levels are likely to be low is not cost effective.
If you want to ride the train in the snow, buy your own transit system. The taxpayers aren't going to subsidize your going out and taking pictures of snow scenes.
AEM7
B-b-b-b but life can't stop in a major city because of inclement weather. People still have to go to work, visit friends, the library, school, shop...might as well blockade all the streets and highways. Why should the taxpayers subsidize your going out and doing 360s in the road?
I think this is the problem with the New York mentality. I actually happen to agree with some of it -- when the weather is only 'problematic', and not 'crippling', people should still go to work and use transit to get there. When most people would agree that it is okay to be out and about, transit should be running.
The case in D.C. was that most weather forecasters have said that it is not safe to go out -- with winds going at 100mph, lots of things can happen, unrelated to cars or transit -- for example, roofs could blow off, trees could topple. In those conditions, no one should go out, and since no one should go out, no transit should be running.
AEM7
Once it hit, if possible, reduced service should have been operated on underground portions of the system. No need to shut down everything hours in advance.
For example, a colleague of mine whose company has a contract to warn major freight railroads about severe weather tells them the WHERE, WHEN, and WHAT of the weather (i.e. "A severe thunderstorm with strong wind and possible tornado will cross the right-of-way between 4:00 and 4:15.") He doesn't tell them to stop the trains.
Which isn't necessarily saying much.
Which isn't necessarily saying much.
And isn't necessarily true. The standards of training on today's passenger railroad, compared to what they used to be when passenger engineers also ran freights, is really quite different.
Some of you read Tuch's column. Ask him about South Shore operators.
Running a train in snow isn't unsafe. It's just a situation that I would rather avoid. In the same way that running a car in snow, or going to Roxbury at night, is a situation I'd rather avoid.
Last year at TRB I was discussing with an FRA guy w.r.t. the progress of positive train control implementation. PTC sounds like a good idea, and I asked him how they would use the dynamic brake. Basically, he said that a PTC unit is very dumb and doesn't work the dynamic nearly as much as it should. These days, trains are heavy and long and might be going uphill and downhill at the same time. They rely pretty much on the combination of all three types of brake to be kept under control. This is not the case on transit cars, but transit cars are subject to the same effect of wheel-rail adhesion and requires some level of expertise to control, especially in bad weather conditions. While there are many operators still left on the transit authorities that used to operate freight and/or locomotive-hauled consists, there are enough rookies (I think they call those Street T/O's) out there for me not to feel comfortable with running at minimum headways in the snow. You make up your mind when you're the TA's Operating VP. But I am not, so I'm defering it to WMATA's VP Operations as to whether it is safe to run in a hurricane. I think his/her decision was the right one.
AEM7
The most fun I ever had driving a car was driving my sister and myself back to college in upstate New York through a nasty snow storm. All the awful drivers were going so slow on the 55mph 2-lane state road that they were losing traction and couldn't make it up the hills. I just kept the gas nailed and passed them in the other lane going up hills while they kinda slid into ditches on the side of the road. Although it was a scary situation, I was having a blast making fun of all the idiots. But don't ask my sister about the trip. I may have scarred her for life.
or going to Roxbury at night, is a situation I'd rather avoid.
According to SNL, which is where I get all my knowledge from, Roxbury seems to be a nice nightclub.
The old Arnines had real steel shoes, not these foam rubber jobbies made from recycled clown noses of today. A snow brake's worth of air was enough to turn your wheels into fixed skis. One of the reasons why this Bronx boy loved the Brighton line SO much was because of the downright skill it took to run Arnines on that line where it was leafy, juicy, and wet.
Even trains need traction. And I'm not sure Fargo, ND would support subway or commuter rail service. A bus would have to do (I don't know if they have any there).
I dunno if I agree with that. Trains don't "skid" per se, but their brakes are generally somewhat less responsive in rain/snow conditions, especially on elevated lines when passing over the trestles over the mezzanine level, where snow can collect, and also track at ground level near tunnel portals. Different cars perform differently in these conditions, but I would think that all rail/subway cars are affected to some extent.
That's a ice issue -- slip & slide conditions (not really to do with the brakes, but the adhesion between steel wheels and steel rails). AEM7
I agree that brakes are less responsive in snow, but the signal system enforces large enough gaps that the risk of hitting another train is still low, if perhaps higher than otherwise. Compare that to the situation on the roads.
Are you unfamiliar with 'wheel climb' conditions? Trains actually rely on the lack of 'traction' (i.e. friction) to move from side to side -- in snow conditions, if the snow is compacted into ice in the groove between the running rail and the guard rail (esp. at the switch points), you will get wheel climb. In most cases, you will come right back down where you started; in some cases, the flange will climb up far enough such that it will begin to ride over the railhead.
Trains don't skid into trains on other tracks.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the WMATA 1996(?) accident at Silver Spring, MD, where a Red Line train skidded into the back of another train in heavy rain. You are obviously unfamiliar with the reasons why trains cannot stop as quickly in rainy, leafy, or snowy conditions. Hint: it has relatively little to do with braking (depending on the type of brake installed on the railcar).
I really don't have a degree in railroad engineering, and I do defer to real engineers on many of those topics. But if you are a railfan, you should really familiarize yourself with these rail operations issues. Try looking at some of Central Electric Railfan Association's publications. Some of them are quite technical and will help you to understand the wheel-rail interface.
AEM7
Anyone who's worked the Brighton line is about to up their medications (Cortelyou, Beverly anyone?) and yours truly on his last foray at Branford on a nice rainy day started cutting through a rail as the wheels slid too. Rubber tires have OODLES more traction, even on ice. The contact point of a rail wheel is typically the size of a dime ... and with a whole lot more mass and momentum to play with.
AEM7's right, and that includes the tendencies to do "wheel climbs" as well ... it's ALL in how you operate, and even MORE important when you don't have SAND to help you cheat a bit. :)
Today's mighty EmTeeYay would rather just assume that crews are staffed with orangutans, issue memos, put up dots on the wayside and write you up. But back to the original argument that trains can stop on a dime, they can't. There's more to running trains than most people realize. And of course, I couldn't avoid wanting to have a little fun with the legends. :)
That's not an issue of traction/friction. If the groove fills with snow or with anything else, then obviously there's an increased risk of a derailment.
That's a problem on a surface railroad. It's less of a problem on an underground or elevated railroad.
Incidentally, the problem is also reduced with frequent service. Unless the rate of snowfall is extremely large, if trains run on their regular headways, each train pushes the snow out of the way, and by the time the next train comes along, the snow pack is small enough that the train can get through safely. If headways are increased to an hour, as you suggest, then an hour's worth of snow builds up before anything comes along to clear it out.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the WMATA 1996(?) accident at Silver Spring, MD, where a Red Line train skidded into the back of another train in heavy rain.
On the same track or on a different track? I acknowledged that reduced braking capabilities do increase the likelihood of rear-end accidents.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the reasons why trains cannot stop as quickly in rainy, leafy, or snowy conditions. Hint: it has relatively little to do with braking (depending on the type of brake installed on the railcar).
Regardless of the type of brake, if the wheels stop turning but the train continues moving, there's a risk of a rear-end accident.
But if you are a railfan, you should really familiarize yourself with these rail operations issues.
I'm not a railfan. I'm interested in efficient transportation. It just so happens that trains provide that transportation in many cases.
On the elvated railroad it is less of a problem if the elevated track is not on a traditional roadbed, but on an open scaffold where debris, snow, ice can fall through to the street below. This is true in New York but not true of all rail systems.
Which form to WMATA's elevated (er, um, aerial) lines take?
That's true, but it doesn't even need a gruesome accident. In snow, a large truck sldes across the road, blocking it. Nothing else can get past. Last winter in the snow in England, where we are notoriously bad with dealing with snow because we think we don't get any, that happened on a hill near where I live. Some car commuters couldn't get home that night because of the resulting jam. Their commute journey was all of 5 to 10 miles, but there was once they were in the jam there was no alternative route out of it.
Now think what happens if there is a gruesome accident a few blocks away -- but the ambulances can't get there in time, because of the truck blocking the road.
(Um, truck? Don't you mean a lorry?)
Correct. Transit works when both inbound and outbound legs fall within the transit service timeframe. Thus:
Someone working day shift (7am-3pm) can take transit.
Someone working 9am-5pm can take transit.
Someone working second shift (3pm-11pm) can take transit.
Someone working night shift (11pm-7am) can also take transit.
But
Someone getting called at 6pm and not knowing when he/she is going to be back, cannot take transit (unless they can be certain that they can return home before the last train, or intend to stay out until the morning)
Someone getting called at 2am cannot take transit (because no one else is going to work at 2am, and therefore transit would not be efficient -- a single car is much less polluting than a six-car electric trainset if each only carries one person).
And please explain how a public service (taxpayer supported) on-call job is different from a private sector on-call job.
Public service jobs are not necessarily taxpayer supported. Telecommunication services, utilities, ambulance services, package delivery services are not generally taxpayer supported, except through 'hidden' subsidies.
AEM7
Agreed. A full shutdown was a bad idea.
What happened the next day? Burned out motors?
Wayne
One other thing -you can't really generalize that "everybody stays home anyway" during major storms when you're talking about major metropolitan areas. For one, service workers (and there are a lot of them) working in hotels, hospitals, office buildings, at cab companies, etc ARE out there. It's not even a question if they own a car, but rather if another family member may need it. Or whether they'd prefer to keep it parked (as I do) rather than risk a big repair bill after driving in horrible conditions. I'm not talking about accidents either. But burning out your trannie trying to buck out of a snow drift. Shorting out electricals from driving through unexpectedly deep puddles. Busting a wheel assembly from skidding on ice or hyroplaning on a water covered road,
Second, WMATA is covering their own butts, if someone were to fly onto the tracks and get injured/die who are they gonna sue?
Mr. Rivera, maybe you should check your facts before you go out around ranting crap.
That's the wrong attitude to take -- transit service is there to serve the public, and not to cover its own butt. The perfect way to cover up their butt would be to shut down the service permanently. No one can sue, no one can complain about the service, if there were no service.
Although, I think WMATA made a good decision to shut down, since no one would ride on a snow day. Why bother with service on a snow day? I would have kept only a skeletal service running (e.g. hourly headways).
AEM7
I'll jump in here by saying, that attitude does make it a "toy" system. No two ways about it. Even our commuter rails in NY keep running. And the weather here always gets worse than in DC. I guess the subway system down there still, to this day, hasn't achieved the status of "always needed" in a fashion similar to power or phone service.
In New York, the trains are our veins. Even if you're ill you don't stop the "blood" from flowing.
Which is occasionally a mistake. When the snow is too deep the motors can burn out when using 3rd rail.
I understand that. But it's extremely rare to see an official pronouncement of "shut `em down!" made in bad weather conditions.
(1) Avoid the need to travel, e.g. Telecommute (2) Travel before the storm hits (3) Travel after storm hits (4) Drive, walk or boat during the storm
AEM7
No, it ain't a cultural thing. Boiler operators and holte clerks are "non essential" personnel. They stay home in a hurricane, or a snowstorm. They call in and say they cannot get to work (if that counts as telecommute).
If they are essential personnel they must either drive or leave earlier.
AEM7
Option 4 is less safe and potentially more disruptive to the public than riding transit.
Of course, where transit simply cannot run safely, it shouldn't run -- it should be obvious that I'm not asking for the impossible. But where transit can run safely (e.g., underground, or anywhere else before the storm actually hits), it's a lot safer than driving, walking, and boating.
Some need to go out anyway. Closing Metro forced them to walk or drive. Especially for those traveling within the underground section of the system, why force them to walk or drive when they'd be safer on a train?
If anything, the roads should have been closed (except for emergency vehicles and buses). Nobody should be out driving in a hurricane. To the limited extent that they could safely operate, buses and trains would provide transportation to those who needed to get around.
No subway or rail system can be considered invincible to acts of God, each system has it's strengths and weaknesses.
So those without private cars nearby were expected to evacuate on foot?!
Transit would not have been useful for evacuations anyway. You are supposed to evacuate BEFORE the storm hits, when it is SAFE to drive. If you took the transit from parts of Virginia that are served by WMATA to Washington, then you would actually be lower. Evacuating was only necessary for this VA residents that live along the coastal plains -- mostly not served by either WMATA or VRE. In fact, even the Amtrak Newport News service hardly goes along the coast -- there's a lot of coastland between the ex Southern alignment and the coastline, except where the line approaches Norfolk.
AEM7
Transit is exceptionally useful for evacuations.
Yes, if you live in the 1940s Wartime England.
Actually, MTA played an important role in saving lives and evacuating people in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy. The actions of train crews proved the value of NYC's transit system and the PATH system in this disaster.
You forgot that little detail, didn't you?
In that case, you were correct and David Greenberger was wrong.
But your opinion does not hold generally in all disaster categories.
I don't in the least dispute that MTA crews acted with great integrity and competence on 9/11. The only way they actually saved lives, however, with possibly a few isolated exceptions, was to avoid sending more people into harm's way after the north tower was attacked.
Everyone who was at ground level or underground at the time of the attack on the north tower had plenty of time to WALK out of harm's way before the collapse of the south tower.
The real savers of lives were the police officers who immediately cordoned off the street level areas around the WTC and told everyone to leave via underground routes, so that when the 2nd plane hit the streets in the immediate area were nearly empty, and by the time the south tower collapsed just about every civilian not in the towers was out of harm's way.
A PATH operator pulled a train out of the way in the nick of time, tis true.
But what you missed was that the trains (commuter rail and subway) carried people out of Manhattan under difficult and demanding conditions.
Mass transit played the most critical role in moving people away from the borough.
I don't in the least deny that MTA employees reassured tens of thousands by their excellent actions, and also reduced the inconvenience of countless thousands by giving them a train ride out of Manhattan rather than a walk. They also kept many from being exposed to the toxic dust.
But that wasn't my point. I was specifically addressing your point re saving lives. I'm not aware of their actions actually saving lives, and you don't address that either. That doesn't make them bad or useless people, however. They behaved wonderfully under pressure.
And therefore reduced the risk of illness or death from respiratory and cardiac failure.
"But that wasn't my point. I was specifically addressing your point re saving lives. I'm not aware of their actions actually saving lives, and you don't address that either."
Well, now you are aware that they did. And of course there is one PATH crew whose actions directly saved the lives of a trainload of passengers. But I already said that.
I hope this has helped you understand the appropriate conclusions that can be reached when considering relevant information.
Wasn't the WTC-Chambers station complex the main underground route out of the area?
New York got the title "The City That Never Sleeps" when it was a manufacturing and industrial center and most of the manufacturers ran three shifts, meaning that there were hundreds of thousands of people going to or from work at any given time of day. Now that, like most of America, it's predominately a city of non-manufacturing, non-industrial jobs, it sleeps a lot more. Still some 24-hour action going on, but not as much as there used to be.
Penn Station at 2am and 4am is remarkably dead (yes I regularly pass through there on Train #66, Train #12 and Train #76).
The rest of New York is more alive than D.C. at all hours, but I agree that NYC has a lot less going on at night than it used to.
AEM7
If the station were attached to bars, restaurants, movie theatres, a university campus, or a mall open late hours, you would.
enn Station is only one place. What about Union Station in DC, or the LIRR station under Bell Boulevard, or the Red Line Metrorail stop at Bethesda...
What about Union Station in DC, or the LIRR station under Bell Boulevard, or the Red Line Metrorail stop at Bethesda...
Yes, also true, but the discussion was about midtown Manhattan. Besides, it's also a bit different. At Bell Blvd, it is a social hub because in that neighborhood that is the hub, unlike in Manhattan where there are plenty of places to go, and many micro-neighborhhods to go with in Manhattan.
Sometimes the station is made to be the social hub; sometimes the the station spurs development of one; sometimes it's a part of the street or neighborhood where you hang out.
Compare this to a category 1 hurricane, which has to have winds of at least 75 miles per hour. We're talking about an entirely different class of storm when it comes to wind. When Isabel made landfall its winds were being clocked at about 110 mph, I believe. I know the winds diminshed considerably when it came inland, but when since you can't predict just how much the winds will abate, it's good to be prepared.
Another thing to be prepared for is storm surge. Had Isabel sent a big storm surge up the Potomoc, might the tunnels have been at risk of flooding, as would at-grade portions of the system. (Els wouldn't have this problem, of course.)
I grew up in the south, watching movies in elementary school about hurricane Camille (1969) devastating the Gulf Coast, and how taking chances with hurricanes can be deadly, so my perspective might be a little different. Even though the storm didn't hit DC as badly as say, the Outer Banks, being safe is better than being sorry.
When the hurricane is bearing down on you, then is not the time to be out doing stuff. It's not a matter of "do we want to encourage people to drive in the hurricane or use transit during the hurricane?" The answer to that question is neither. We want to encourage people to take shelter before the hurricane comes and once it hits STAY PUT until it passes. Transit migh tbe good for getting you to shelter before the storm comes, but once it hits, it's another matter.
As far as evacuation goes, in the case of hurricanes people often need to evacuate hundreds of miles. Evacuating shorter distances might be a good job for transit, but in this case, it's not going to get you far enough to be away from the storm.
Sorry for the rant,
Mark
The question isn't whether we want to encourage people to drive or to take transit during hurricanes. The question is whether transit is treated by those who run it as a reliable, dependable form of transportation, at least as reliable and dependable as other forms. If they don't, then it can't possibly be reliable or dependable, now or ever.
In closing, shutting down was a prudent thing to do. If everything was running, then when the storm hit, there would have been a mass exodous that would have overlaoded the system, and make it prone to accidents. The DC area learned from their colossal mistake they made in 1982 when a snowstorm paralyzed the city, overloaded Metro and set up two HUGE disaters, that shut down the city for two days.
BTW: the disaters occurred 1/2 hour apart. First was the Air Florida plane hitting a gridlocked 14th st Bridge, then a 1/2 hour later, was the Metrorail derailment outside of the Smithsonian Station.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/AirFlorida_SubwayDis.html
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
You also don't take into account that the NWS prediction was made at 4:30 pm the day before. Considering that the forecast of the storm's track was made 24 hours in advance, Metro took the safe course of action. They had also been in touch with Miami's transit officials to find out how they deal with hurricanes and high winds.
Instead of the storm hitting Washington at 2 pm, we were hit at 5 p.m.
The system took followed the old railroad maxim of "taking the safe course of action."
Michael
Washington, DC
I take an 11:00 closing time to mean that at 11:00, the system closes down and everybody's thrown out of the system. Apparently that's not what it means in Washington.
I still don't see why this had to be done in advance. Keep running trains until they can't safely be run anymore; then stop. Regardless of weather conditions, I've never heard of a planned system outage here in NYC -- the system keeps on going, and if bits and pieces have to drop out, they drop out.
An overly "safe" course of action unnecessarily jeapordizes people's lives.
Metro looked over the various weather forecasts and determined at what time service would have to end in order for all the passengers and their own staff to make it safely home. After consulting with Miami-Dade Transit and realizing that once winds exceeded 40 MPH, it would be unsafe for passengers, Metro worked backwards to determine not when to close, but when to stop accepting passengers.
Storms of this nature are NOT predictable. There was no way to make everyone happy, but this was far better than having someone seriously hurt or killed.
As a result of Metro closing, OPM decided to shut the federal government. Note, this was AFTER WMATA made its decision. The DC government and those school systems that hadn't closed yet also closed AFTER WMATA did. As a result, people didn't have to choose between working and preparing for the storm, the choice was made for them.
WMATA was not pathetic, they were living up to their reputation as being one of the safest public transit systems in the nation. I am sorry you can not see this fact.
I guess up here we're just more used to it. And anyway, the fact that a decision to "shut down the government" was made just emphasizes the point. Hmmm, wish that my paycheck tax bite could be "shut down" as easy!!
Uh, I guess I propose exactly that. How can anyone know where everyone has ended up? People might not be able to access the system in time for the shutdown. So they could be stuck anywhere. But it's probably a function of city population anyway. Maybe DC just hasn't been using the trains long enough. New York, Chicago, maybe Boston and Philadelphia, these cities seem to depend greatly on their transit systems to function every day or there will be chaos. They are designed around the transit lines, mostly. Sorry, but in those places there is basically no option to halt operations. Even if the winds are howling, the streets unpassable. Until absolutely forced to suspend service, yes, a transit city cannot make that choice. The Roads Must Roll.
The Government had shut down and made the announcment a day before, it was all over the news, and I'm not sure if they broadcasted (in the news) it up there, but the last trains out, there weren't a lot of folks in them.
You have to remember, that Washington DC isn't a New York, its a "government town" and when that shuts down no one is pretty much around. Everything was pretty much closed so where are folks going to go using the subway anyways?
So as someone who lives in the area, I didn't have a problem with Metro closing, I didnt have to go anyway since everything was closed(and most people down here didn't mind as well) and I totally agree with WMATA for making the decision.
The WMATA doesn't need to protect us from ourselves. They should make suggestions, but not force us to stay home. OTOH, "protecting employees" is not a bad argument.
Posted on:9/19/03 9:25:45 AM
Due to emergency track work, Manhattan-bound 2 trains are running on the express track from East 180th Street to Freeman Street until further notice.
Due to signal problems, Manhattan-bound 7 express trains are running local from 61st Street-Woodside to Queensboro Plaza until further notice.
Due to switch problems at Whitehall Street, northbound N & R trains are running on the W line between DeKalb Avenue and Canal Street until further notice.
Due to switch problems at 36th Street-4th Avenue, southbound N & W trains are running on the local track from Pacific Street to 36th Street until further notice.
Due to a temporary loss of power, Franklin Ave Shuttle service in Brooklyn, is temporary suspended in both directions along the entire route.
CG
Due to emergency track work, Manhattan-bound 2 trains are running on the express track from East 180th Street to Freeman Street until further notice.
Fast fix for the rest?!
Somehow, half a car* came to rest on the NEC Main Line right-of-way just north of Hyde Park station (that's between Route 128 & Boston/Back Bay). So with two of three tracks out-of-service for a number of hours, there were 30-45 minute delays on the MBTA Providence/Attleboro, Stoughton, and Franklin lines. Also southbound Amtrak service from Boston to NYC was disrupted (5:15 and 6:15 AE's were cancelled, and the 7:15 and 8:20 were 1+ hour late).
*Where's the other half, and how'd it get there ... since the ROW is in an open cut surrounded by fences? From my train, I couldn't see the point-of-entry, though it was probably either through a fence, or off a near-by overpass. Our inbound train wrong-railed on Track 3 to get around the mess.
David, please read the first post in this thread.
Recibiste el correo electronico acerca del domingo? Por favor
lee la primera carta en esta comunicacion. Gracias.
(SAP enabled)
And here's my response to Chris, courtesy of Google:
Ich reagierte gerade auf Ihr email. Bestätigen Sie bitte den Empfang -- durch email, vorzugsweise.
Acabo de responder a su email. Confirme por favor el recibo -- por el email, preferiblemente.
J'ai juste répondu à votre email. Veuillez confirmer le reçu -- par l'email, de préférence.
Ho risposto appena al vostro email. Confermi prego la ricevuta -- dal email, preferibilmente.
Eu respondi apenas a seu email. Confirme por favor o recibo -- pelo email, preferivelmente.
(How'd I do?)
--Mark
I like e-translations. Sound always funny. :-)
A to/from Far Rockaway
E south of West 4th st to WTC.
F runs through Lower Bergen, Manhattan-bound (Saturday only)
G entire route (cannot use Court Square due to G.O. on local track, all E/B trains are express from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt/JH)
J between Cypress Hills and Jamaica Center.
L between Broadway Junction and Lorimer St.
W limited service between Bay Parkway and Stillwell
til next time
But as with every other fan trip, the routing is "...subject to change.".
If choices are your preference, then you can take any uptown train to Cortlandt St and walk over to Broadway for everything else on Broadway and in Fulton St.
Let me guess...L trains still running on the J next weekend? [That would seem to be the only reason not to continue to at least ENY.]
BTW, why are they doing that anyway? There doesn't appear to be any work going on on the L platforms or the crossover, so why can't they just use the upper level like normal?
I know, but WHY is it down there? There's nothing going on upstairs.
--Mark
Due to emergency track work, Manhattan-bound 2 trains are running on the express track from East 180th Street to Freeman Street until further notice.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
Had we kept the 2nd and 3rd Ave els, we would have much more capacity on the east side, plus more options to and from the Bronx. It truely is shame that we lost them. And the second Ave had that link to Queens via the 59th Steet bridge, that also was big loss.
I used to work at 41 Street and First Ave. to go anywhere, you need to walk over to Lex, go up or downtown and then back east if the destination was toward 1st or 2nd. I really don't view the M15 as an overly viable option as calling it slow is an understatement.
Given adequate replacement subway service underground, demolishing the old El would, in the long run, help property values increase. Notice the important detail at the beginning of my sentence.
Go the public forum sponsored by Community Board 8 this Monday, Sept 22, at 7PM, New York Blood Center, 310 E 67 St, between First and Second Av, to support the SAS.
The two tracks that went over the Queensboro Bridge, needless to say, have never really been replaced, and one wonders what the Flushing line would be like today if they were still there.
Fast trivia question: does anyone know the fate of the girders of the 3rd Avenue Elevated?
My timing could be off. When did we start the oil and other material embargoes that led Japan to attack us at Pearl Harbor?
Add to that the fact that it was too far from the Downtown Financial district as well, and you have a recipe for a useless terminal.
The whole idea of a train that forces you to transfer to other lines was another bad BMT idea. Plus, since you had to transfer anyway, why keep trains running over the bridge when all you're transfer options were identical to those in downtown bklyn?
I am only going on a very gray memory here and I am not sure of this. But just a thought they could have easly terminated at Sand street and used a free transfer at High Street station at the foot of the bridge.
any thoughts on this
thanks
john
thanks again
john
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I'm surprised he didn't this is as a chance to find employment for his old Enron buddies. Amtrak's just one good financial scandal from being gone for good.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Bush
Fear not JM, cronyism is alive and well. Crandall is on the Board of Directors at Halliburton.
CG
At first glance, it's hard to see how he'll be able to get any funds sent Halliburton's way by simply looking to shut Amtrak down.
CG
CG
I said it before, and I will say it again: And so the bloodletting of the National Railroad Passenger Corporation continues...
Who would you have suggested?
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Unfortunately its about 900 million too short.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#House
One doesn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what is going on here.
Probably the same criminal. More to the point, for all the hue and cry about how closing token booths increases the risk of crime, I don't see how the presence of staffed booths would have any bearing on this crime.
Expensive if this guy is going to strike every two months.
Well I just hope they put a stop to this, even though we normally aren't on the subway at those hours. It hits home twice -- my neighborhood, and the subway.
To show how it can affect decisions, recall there was a rape in the early AM rush hour on the southbound platform at 4th Avenue and 9th Street many years ago. The southbound platform was deserted at the time, with most people going north. Well, when we were looking around to see what middle school our daugher might want to attend, that incident took one school right off the list, because she would have had to make that transfer, at that time, to get there. And I'm a reasonable person about things like that.
Serial criminals, serial rapists included, usually get caught, eventually. What happens is that they become emboldened and become more and more careless in carrying out their crimes. For instance, the F train rapist might begin figuring that he'll never get caught, and will start attacking women on platforms that aren't entirely deserted. The bad part, of course, is that he may end up committing many more rapes before he finally slips up.
You're paranoid. On Friday the Boston Globe ran an article about 9 (nine) shootings they've had in Dorchester during the past three months -- and I live there. Some guy actually saw the article and e-mailed me and asked if I was alright.
Mind you, it wasn't in my part of the town, but it's pretty close. We're about a mile from most of the shootings. Everyone in town knows which empty lot not to go to at which times of the day, and which playgrounds to avoid.
Oh and did I forget to mention, a shooting occured IN a subway station that is only two stops down the line from my house even before I moved there.
It doesn't pay to be paranoid, and Larry struck me as being a little paranoid if he's worried about two rapes.
AEM7
What might contribute to some of the fear is the fact that rapists frequently commit strings of attacks until they're finally caught. While it's difficult to draw any conclusions from just two rapes, they could well be the start of a long series.
BTW, there is such a thing as a female rapist too, butmuch less common.
The only other horrible crime we had here in Windsor Terrace, and this was some years ago, was an older woman who was followed home from a Manhattan ATM on the subway, victimized by a push-in robbery, and killed. That was in the day time, but it was a push-in so no one could see.
This is a variant of a much more common street crime; crooks in a car stake out an ATM, then follow the victim in her car home and stick her up at home, or possibly stage an accident on a convenient stretch of road and stick her up there. They don't stick the victim up at the ATM as much because they know the ATM has a camera.
Right, and they don't rape people on the subway because there are too many people around. So a few people have figured out a way to get around the inherent safety of the subway, by committing the crime outside the station after picking out a victim on the train. You have to wonder where these awful people come from.
Dumb Question: Why would the victim be going home, if the victim is taking money out of an ATM? I would be heading down to Chinatown if I ever took money out of an ATM -- that's the only place I know of that has a cash-only economy. Everywhere else, the victim should have used a card. For day-to-day fast fude requirements, I take out my money $20 or $40 at a time. Why would anyone rob someone for $40? (And if they do, why does the victim fight it, and end up getting killed?)
AEM7
You assume that people only go to an ATM right before they intend to spend money. That is not true.
I often don't bother with a credit card if I'm making small purchases, even if the merchant takes a credit card.
"Why would anyone rob someone for $40? "
There are lots of people in prison today who killed for less than that. Would you like to interview them?
"(And if they do, why does the victim fight it, and end up getting killed?) "
Not all of them fight. They are often killed to prevent them from identifying the crooks to the police and testifying at trial, or because the crooks also enjoy the act of harming or killing people.
This is also a situation where security cameras with a 24 hour tape would be better than a station agent. The police would have pictures of everyone who left the train at the same time the victim did. With two victims they could see if any single individual was present both times.
Tom
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The question is, will the money go to buy glorified grollies or regular trollies. I also love how the money is to help re-vitalize streetcar systems. Wouldn't a better term be resurrect?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Blumenauer
2. The plural of trolley is trolleys. You do not drop the y and add ies to make the plural of trolley. Remember, if Y is preceeded by a vowel, you do not drop it. Engish lesson for the day.
That's why I used to post the full text until people started bitching at me. Damit, why can't I please all the people all the time!
2. The plural of trolley is trolleys. You do not drop the y and add ies to make the plural of trolley. Remember, if Y is preceeded by a vowel, you do not drop it. Engish lesson for the day.
But I like using ie, its a fun combination and it lets me view Destination Freedom :-)
Huh? I just accessed it using Netscape.
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Well what do you expect with Brother Bush in the Governor's Mansion.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Florida
Miami-Orlando
Miami-Jacksonville
St. Petersburg-Miama
St. Petersburg-Pensacola
St. Petersburg-Jacksonville
Pensacola-Jacksonville
Pensacola-Port Cabaveral/Cocoa
Any suggestions?
Also, common misconception, the edges are flat, the center ain't.
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Well at least the Sunset is up an Infinite Percent from 0 to 3.7
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Hiawatha
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Its down in Florida is anyone wants to go throw eggs at this glorified RDC.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Colorado
What exactly is the deal with this colorado car anyway, how'd this car get touted as being the demo model for the nation to "marvel" at in places they ain't never seen a train before?
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Hmmm, $5 million. That'll maybe get the interlocking built at Port Morris.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Cash
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Hmmm, $5 million. That'll maybe get the interlocking built at Port Morris.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Monterey
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So much exploring, so little doing.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#San
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This line has all the makings of a "Greenbush" style political fight once crunch time comes in the state budget. The fact that NS ain't too keen on the line is another problem.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Georgia
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CSX: We can't do anything right.
Anybody worried that a former CSX CEO is now the Treasury Secritary?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Crown
And in the meantime CSX is still in a rut with regards to technology, the state-of-(not) good-repair of track and infrastructure, and otherwise.
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The report goes onto point out that the best way to combat this threat is to harass people out taking pictues near the tracks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#Rail
I wish I knew Elsa's address so I could send her complimentary boxes of Depends. We can't have her running around with wet panties, can we?
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::chuckles:: Boy, this just isn't a good quarter for CSX.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#CSXcar
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Hmmm, this sounds like a scam to get an all expense paid trip to Japan. I'll bet they'll need to compare it to the ICE train and TGV next with a stopover in Australia to check out their HST 125 diesels operate in a California-like environment.
Its the Hi-speed rail world tour!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09152003.shtml#California
Now, are you going to get your hiney up to the Community Board 8 meeting about the SAS Monday, or not?
Doesn't matter that you're from out of town. Go anyway.
Elias
They're supposed to ship any day now.
Has anyone obtained an advance copy?
How's the quality?
Thanks.
http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2U3FVQ5WIH&sourceid=0039357149&btob=Y&isbn=1586853244&itm=50
The consensus is that the extra 2 tracks on the lower Fourth Ave line were for a Staten Island extension, but looking at this part of a map, unless the eastern spur at 66th street loops back around, that those two tracks were planned to go east in Brooklyn, so is this map showing an earlier plan that was later changed? What gives?
Sort of guessing,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Right, but with the Shallow option now, well, no longer an option, it appears that the MTA has dropped the idea. A mistake, in my opinion. I like the idea of tying it to the Nassau line in some way, but since the MTA dropped the Nassau St alignment option, it looks like they dropped that idea, too. It now looks like there will be no connections anywhere in southern Manhattan.
My opinion also, and I'll tell you why. The SAS will be built in stages. The first stage is the Stubway, and as I've said I'll be pleasantly surprised if we get even that. The most expensive stage is Lower Manhattan, south of Houston, where the TBM no longer works. It is possible that a second stage could be built and the lower Manhattan stage deferred. But that would have the T dead ending in nowhereville.
Better to hook the SAS into tracks BJ-1 and BJ-2 to the Manhattan Bridge. The J and Z, rather than the T, could run up Second Avenue. Yes those are 8 car trains, but you could just run more of them. The M could still run to Chambers. Nassau riders would be better served.
This would be also an option:
(D) Norwood-Hanover Sq
(T) 125 St-CI (The T back on the West End!)
:-)
Humans are lazy. Why to scream "yes, build it", if they say that they
want to build it. Only thing: these silly people don't understand, if
there are to much people screaming against it, that it will not be build.
2Av ->Nassau St -> Montague
If this happen, then there will be no tunnel to Hanover Sq build.
Perhaps that would be it for the SAS. But if demand requires and finances permit, the rest of the SAS south of Grand Street could be built in association with service to Queens, as discussed in an earlier thread. That would be "Phase III."
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/pdf/construction9_3_02.pdf
The map shows: 2Av-Nassau-Montague
But what I'm suggesting here is different, running the Willie B trains north, though you still have the 8 car train issue.
Thank you, Dave.
I only know about 63 St and Grand St.
At this point, the TA can connect to brooklyn, because there is excess capacity in existing tunnels. Why not do that and make even more people happy?
But i still never heard about a connection to the 53 St tunnel, except
from you. Is this your idea?
You can't work miracles. It's 1/4 of a mile from 2nd Ave to Lex Ave. No way to make that closer. And by GCT the 6 is halfway to Park Ave already.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/pdf/construction9_3_02.pdf
It looks like 54-57St for the station (name)
N Broadway
f.e.
Q via 2 Av to 125 St
R via Bridge and 2 Av to FH
Obviously, I think there should be a connection with the BMT Broadway/Nassau at the Bowery; I also think there should be one to the Rutgers tunnel in case we ever see express service restored on the Culver line. It could split from the F and maybe rejoin it at 63rd to go into Queens, but that would probably involve a new line or CBTC on QB.
The other thing about the SDEIS is that it never mentions how this line would be expanded to 4 tracks in the future. I want them to do thhis right if they are going to spend $12.8 billion '03 Dollars on this; the tunnels and station design seem to limit an outward expansion, so I guess it wouuld be something similar to the CPW or UES Lex lines in the layout, should it go to 4 tracks. Any chance we could have this line designed with a 3rd track for Rush Hour Express service? Then we could get the Q,T, and maybe the M or V up to the UES. Someone help me out on this!
As to provisions for expansion to four tracks, I don't recall that being proposed officially at all. Unlike cut-and-cover, where the cost of digging a four-track right-of-way is only incrementally higher than digging a two-track right-of-way, much of the Second Avenue Subway is proposed to be carved out by Tunnel Boring Machines. Each machine makes a hole that is wide enough for one train (plus catwalk, etc.), so one would need four TBMs for four trackways at a cost that is approximately twice that of two TBMs for two trackways. Similarly, a third trackway would increase the construction cost by about 50%.
David
The SAS should be built with provisions for future expansion to four tracks. The local tracks should continue across 125th Street, connecting with all intersecting subway lines, all the way to the Hudson, and then turn north, terminating at Riverbank State Park. (This crosstown line could later be fed also by a subway line from LGA, supplanting the M60 bus.) The express tracks should go into the Bronx, taking over one of the existing Bronx routes.
Without extensive work which is not fundable or feasible, you cannot run an IND train into an IRT tunnel.
But you've missed the point completely here. Look carefully at your map. We want to reduce overcrowding on the Lex. Passengers in the Bronx could board T trains along the Grand Concourse, which would alternate with D trains (or perhaps use the peak express track). These passengers could use that instead of getting on the 4 train, redistributing load off the Lex.
Since the SAS will terminate along 125 Street, the tunnel need only be extended a short distance to reach the D's tunnel. This is financially feasible, especially since the SAS's proposed budget had provision for tail/storage tracks west of the 125 St terminal anyway.
The SAS could be extended to a free transfer with the IRT, but I would still merge a branch into the D line.
Your proposal isn't on the table and will never be on the table. You seem to have trouble differentiating Subtalk fantasy or whatr you can do in HO gauge at home from reality.
This is far from SubTalk Fantasy or HO gauge trainset. It is a possible plan for the future( of course after the main part of the trunk line gets built to 125th St).
Read my proposal again. SAS locals would run all the way across 125th Street to the Hudson, with transfers to the 4/5/6 and MNR at Lex-Park, to the 2/3 at Lenox, to the A/B/C/D at St. Nicholas, and to the 1/9 at Broadway. At the river the line would turn north (it could run on the surface here) and terminate at Riverbank State Park, currently only served by buses. My proposal would provide direct transfer opportunities between all upper Manhattan/Bronx lines and the SAS and would bring service to a part of the city that doesn't currently have service.
Your proposal would give a service boost to a line that doesn't need a service boost, while denying 1/9 riders a direct transfer to the SAS and not serving West Harlem or the Columbia University area. The Concourse-Jerome corridor is already served by the B, D, and 4; as long as transfers to the SAS are available, that's quite sufficient already. Sending the SAS up there as well would clog the 205th Street (or BPB) terminal and would unnecessarily increase operational costs.
I never said anything about a track connection to the 1/9. Even if it were physically conceivable to merge a B Division line with an A Division line, the 1/9 is high above Broadway on a soaring viaduct at 125th Street while the SAS would presumably be underground.
Wow. 1/20th of a mile - that's REALLY going to make a difference.
To the contrary, I read very carefully and my answer was completely on point. It is you who ignore anything not in line with your pet theory.
"SAS locals would run all the way across 125th Street...At the river the line would turn north (it could run on the surface here) and terminate at Riverbank State Park, currently only served by buses."
I read all that. There isn't money in the Capital Plan for it; it's too expensive and it will not happen in the forseeable future. On the other hand, a very short addition to the SAS, enough to plug it into the D line is fiscally feasible, can be accomplished in a relatively short time, and will provide an effective one-seat East Side alternative to IRT Lex riders, which your plan will not do.
I would not oppose your plan if MTA decided to do it. I actually like it on its own merits and I agree with the benefits you describe. Put in a bellmouth at the point of merge with the D, and your proposal is physically possible. Surface running, though, is always subject to NIMBY.
"Your proposal would give a service boost to a line that doesn't need a service boost,"
Not relevant to my argument. I never said that boosting service to the Concourse was the idea. Boosting choice of destination and an alternative to the Lex was.
"Sending the SAS up there as well would clog the 205th Street (or BPB) terminal and would unnecessarily increase operational costs."
I beg to differ. First, "unnecessary" is your subjective term only, and I think the ROI would be very high. Second, frequency of service on the D isn't high enough so that introducing the T train would not be all that terrible. If trains alternate going in either direction (west side, east side etc.) there is enough capacity in that tunnel to maintain a decent schedule.
An additional benefit would be that the TA would get rerouting flexibility in the event of a fire or police activity. So even if I agreed with you, I'd still consider creating that connection for non-revenue moves and to give the D another route if CPW had to be shut down for some reason.
Oh, by the way, more than one member of the Manhattan Borough President's Office liked the D connection enough to discuss it with MTA, and MTA staffers were not ruling it out.
Have you looked at a map? Am I missing something here? (I may be). I'm not sure where you want this SAS and Grand Concourse connection, but 125th Street/2nd Ave is approx 40 city blocks from about 164th/Grand Concourse where this connection would be made, and there is a body of water in beteen. Or if you want it to connect from 125th/2nd Ave to 125th/CPW to the D, it's not that short of a distanceeither, it's across half the width of Manhattan! And only 3-4 blocks less than at least bringing it to the IRT West Side line.
So my question is what makes David's idea more of a "SubTalk fantasy/playing with HO gauge rail/less feasible" idea than yours?
You already know this couldn't possibly be what I was talking about.
"Or if you want it to connect from 125th/2nd Ave to 125th/CPW to the D, it's not that short of a distanceeither, it's across half the width of Manhattan! "
Six blocks, at least one of which is already planned as tail-track and storage space. That leaves 5 blocks. Maybe you and David could help each other with map reading.
"And only 3-4 blocks less than at least bringing it to the IRT West Side line."
Yes, but the potential return is too small and it would be double the effort of the proposal I ouitlined. Too much to be added to the end of the project. I like David's idea personally.
"So my question is what makes David's idea more of a "SubTalk fantasy/playing with HO gauge rail/less feasible" idea than yours?"
Because the pols and the MTA have already had discussion of my idea (and I do not take original credit for it; I don't know if somebody else already brought it up to them) in meetings. You and David are still only here on Subtalk.
"The cost of the extra distance would probably be negated by there not being a need to connect to an existing line without disrupting service."
To Broadway, your math is good. I agree with your post. Beyond it to the river, or if you want to curve it north, the math favors the D Connection.
Actually, if the line did go beyond Broadway, I'd still put a connection/merge in.
But in your usual politically tone-deaf manner, you forgot about NIMBY.
Whose BY did you have in mind?
Remember that I'm not a NIMBY, so you're preaching to the choir here (hell, I'd consider it an honor if I bought a house where my next door neighbor was a subway ventilation plant).
But NIMBYS aren't rational. Surface running in Manhattan, at or near a park? And move a block or two off the Fairway and what do you have? There will be people calling you a racist merely for suggesting it.
The area is poorly served by transit, with the nearest subway station inconveniently located. Nearly everyone who shops at Fairway drives there, since it's at the foot of a highway exit ramp. Add a subway station across from Fairway and you've just created a new shopping opportunity for everyone who lives near 125th Street. A subway station might further spur redevelopment of the area.
As for the park, it's across the highway from the neighborhood it serves. A subway line coming in from the back, along the highway itself, would go unnoticed by neighborhood residents -- except for those who use the subway to reach the park to begin with. This isn't a traditional city park.
No, I'm afraid I do know what I'm talking about. Nobody lives in the middle of the train yards on the west side either, so how do you explain those NIMBYS?
You need to do a litttle more research and look at the big picture. I keep telling you that railfanning isn't the be-all and end-all and you keep ignoring me. Oh well.
"The area is poorly served by transit, with the nearest subway station inconveniently located. Nearly everyone who shops at Fairway drives there, since it's at the foot of a highway exit ramp. Add a subway station across from Fairway and you've just created a new shopping opportunity for everyone who lives near 125th Street. A subway station might further spur redevelopment of the area.
As for the park, it's across the highway from the neighborhood it serves. A subway line coming in from the back, along the highway itself, would go unnoticed by neighborhood residents -- except for those who use the subway to reach the park to begin with. This isn't a traditional city park."
I agree with you. Like I said, you're preaching to the choir here. But you're too lazy to take this anywhere but Subtalk. Do you realize that, in place of this email exchange, you could have penned a letter to the Manhattan Borough Prez, with copies to Bloomberg, the City Councilman for your area, and the MTA?
Explain to me why this area needs subway service then? Because of one store?
Riverbank State Park could use subway service, though.
It's an inexpensive extension (since it's not underground). It might actually be cheaper to build a terminal at Riverbank State Park than underground somewhere else. I don't know. It certainly seems like a reasonable possibility to me. I don't know why you and Ron are so eager to dismiss it ouf ot hand.
And it's a good way to win brownie points with Harlem politicians.
But David has a lot of data to prove his point. The 63rd Street project spurred significant residential development on Roosevelt Island and the Archer project made possible private and public development in Jamaica.
I would substitute "will" for "could."
Both of these projects relieved crowding on other lines as well. Archer connected to the LIRR terminal, and 63rd (eventually) connected to the Queens Blvd line. There was additional beneit.
This proposed Riverbank State Park extension would not do that.
By the way, won't the extension of the 7 to Javits, along with Javits' expansion, tend to increase 7 ridership, esp. during conventions, and therefore dump more tranfers onto the Lex (and vice versa, more passengers coming from the Lex, transferring to the 7 in the Javits direction?
Roosevelt Island's redevelopment started years before the 1989 station opening. I believe the state took responsibility for redevelopment in the very early 1970's, and many of the current residential and commercial buildings were completed by the time the station opened (which, typically, was years and years behind schedule). One could claim that much of the development would not have occurred had there been no plans for a subway station, but that involves some assumptions I'm not prepared to make.
Linking Archer Avenue to Jamaica's development is even more tenuous. Downtown Jamaica was a thriving commercial area back when the el still ran. As has been discussed here many times, demolishing the el more than a decade before Archer Avenue opened may have contributed to the area's precipitous decline, though it surely wasn't the only cause. In any event, there was no development to speak of in downtown Jamaica for close to a decade after Archer Avenue opened, and the development that has taken place in the past five years or so has been almost entirely government-owned or heavily subsidized. Maybe AirTrain will help, if it ever opens, but as things stand Jamaica has precious little private-sector development.
Well-Documented fact, not a claim.
" but that involves some assumptions I'm not prepared to make."
You'd be all by yourself.
False statement. Jamaica Center was already there when I was in New York in the early 1990s. Where do you come up with such drivel?
" and the development that has taken place in the past five years or so has been almost entirely government-owned or heavily subsidized. "
much the same as everywhere else in New York and even elsewhere. In Atlanta, development was spurred in part by favorable deals secured by MARTA. So your comment is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. And the rising rents make it silly to boot. But then you've never understood Jamaica.
much the same as everywhere else in New York and even elsewhere. In Atlanta, development was spurred in part by favorable deals secured by MARTA. So your comment is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. And the rising rents make it silly to boot. But then you've never understood Jamaica.
Tax exemptions are one thing. They're commonplace nationwide, as you note. What little private development Jamaica has seen has gotten direct subsidies. There's a difference.
Let's list what private-sector things have been built in downtown Jamaica in the past few years ... a million-square-foot retail center anchored by a Wal-Mart Supercenter, IKEA and Lowe's ... a 50-story Class A office building ... 5,000 units of market-rent apartments ... a 10 million-square foot industrial park ... oh wait, how does none of the above sound?
Let's say that 1,000 people are stuck with three-seat access to a particular section of the city.
One proposal gives 500 of those people direct (one-seat) access, but leaves the other 500 with the three-seat access they currently have.
Another proposal gives two-seat access to all 1,000.
Which proposal do you think is superior? All else aside, I prefer the second solution.
Now let's fiddle with the numbers. Does your answer change if the first proposal only gives 400 of them direct access?
Washington Heights ridership is very low compared to Upper West Side ridership. Comparing crosstown ridership to M98 ridership, I'd have to say that more Upper West Siders than Washington Heights residents travel to the East Side. That's why I fiddled with the numbers.
You say that it's a waste of money. You're assuming that it costs more to extend the line from St. Nicholas to Broadway than to make a right turn and hook it into the IND's extra tracks. The more I think about it, the more I doubt that. How far would the new line have to run through the curve and ramp up into the IND? About half a mile. How far is it from St. Nicholas to Broadway? Less than half a mile -- and with no worrying about having to underpin another subway line the whole way. An extension to Broadway would be cheaper than a connection to the IND -- never mind the additional operational costs, or the capital costs that would probably be needed to rebuild a terminal.
Once at Broadway, the further extension to the Hudson isn't really necessary, but it's an easy, inexpensive way to improve transit access to an underserved area. Perhaps a new yard could be built in the area as well (maybe even with a track connection to the underground 137th Street yard).
It seems to me that my proposal is cheaper and results in better overall service than yours.
Your proposal tries to give everybody a 2-seat ride.
Mine gives people one-seat rides, and gives others the option of 2 seat rides, If they walk to a neaby subway. You KEEP ignoring this. This plan would also draw people off of the crowded IRT.
I think mine is better.
You say that it's a waste of money. You're assuming that it costs more to extend the line from St. Nicholas to Broadway than to make a right turn and hook it into the IND's extra tracks. The more I think about it, the more I doubt that. How far would the new line have to run through the curve and ramp up into the IND? About half a mile. How far is it from St. Nicholas to Broadway? Less than half a mile -- and with no worrying about having to underpin another subway line the whole way. An extension to Broadway would be cheaper than a connection to the IND -- never mind the additional operational costs, or the capital costs that would probably be needed to rebuild a terminal.
And in your proposal, you've also got to build a new station. You also have to underpin the subway where it Passes under the IND anyways. Maybe the cost to broadway would be the SAME as the IND tie in, but certainly it would not be as cheap to extend it up to Riverbank.
There you go with the 'terminal rebuilding' that I have repeatedly stated would be unnessecary.
It seems to me that my proposal is cheaper and results in better overall service than yours.
Yours is undoubtedly more expensive, and spends money running to an area with little potential ridership. You want it because it "might spur development". Typical attitude of a snotty Upper West Sider who thinks that their areas are more worthy of funds than already developed areas which need service.
How's this for a way to de-crowd the IRT Broadway Local:
Build a new IND 207th St station on the Yard Leads, with a transfer available to the IRT 207th St station. Then ramp up onto the El and take over everything from 215th St to 242nd St.
Result:
(A) 242nd St Van Cortlandt Park - Far Rockaway
(A) 242nd St Van Cortlandt Park - Lefferts Blvd
(1) 207th St - South Ferry
The 1/9 has plenty of spare capacity. NYCT chooses not to use it because they try to keep on a tight budget.
Yes, but it's 3 track, so abandoning the unused 3rd track would be in most cases all that's needed to get adequate clearance.
Well, that's a new one on me.
Well, that's a new one on me.
What's wrong with a bit of inventivity with the English language?
I see. You interpret "Well, that's a new one on me" as a critique. It dasn't be, and it ain't.
Good on all points. Yes, it would help Harlem politicians esp. if you make sure they get to say "We thought of it first."
Now where the F*ck did that come from?!
There are others...look at what happens over in the west side yards..
You're telling us that running the line an additional fraction of a mile is completely implausible, even though the extension would grant SAS transfer access to 1/9 passengers and would bring subway service to a part of the city that has no subway service currently; but that connecting the line in the middle of what is already one of the most complex interchanges in the system, clogging one of the Bronx terminals, and sending trains where nobody needs them is perfectly feasible. What are you smoking?
Oh, wait, the Manhattan Borough President is on your side. Of course, not only is the BP a major political figure, he's also well versed in transportation issues.
Like it or not, the Borough Prez, the State Assemblyman and MTA hire people who are experts in transportation planning. You may think you know more than they do, but not everyone shares that opinion.
i.e.-8th av Chambers st.
Nor have I ever heard anyone speak of Chambers and 8th. Not only is it on Church, but with the switches at W4, I wouldn't consider it part of the 8th Avenue line at all. South of W4, I refer to the lines as the Church Avenue line and the Houston Street line (or occasionally by their tunnel names).
You could call the lines the magic and trick lines, but that's not what they're referred to. An A train at Chambers is an 8th avenue express. The line is collecively called 8th avenue, even when it's nowhere near 8th avenue. Unless the stop has a reference to the street it's under in it's name (53rd/lex) I've usually heard it differentiated from other lines by the trunk line that stops there.
By the way, interestingly, do you all notice that at the time of that map the 60th St tunnel route to the Queens Blvd Line was the part time service, and the Crosstown service was the full time service.
Hmm...would that make a 125 crosstown line entirely infeasible? MTA had no problem proposing tail tracks west of Lex (and BTW, I believe the terminal really straddles Lex and the Metro-North Station, so we're talking west of Park Avenue).
I don't know. Why don't you do some research and tell us what you discover?
Perhaps I'm wrong, But I don't think faults can be 'inactive' much in the same way volcanoes can. A fault is a seperation of the tectonic plates, isn't it? (its been a while for me). NYC has had a few minor quakes because of faults in and around Central Park. But, just because a fault doesn't generate an earthquake does not mean that the fault is "inactive".
Intra-continental earthquakes can be just as bad as those at continental boundaries, they just tend to happen less often. One example of such a calamity is the earthquake in New Madrid, MO.
At some point, New York was on an active plate boundary, separating the North American plate from the African plate when Pangaea still existed, there were numerous collisions here of continents that formed the supercontinents Rodinia and Pangea. When the Rockies, the Andes, the Himalayas and the Alps didn't exist, there were the great Appalachians.
At some point in the future, the east coast will be active again.
Or: pie in the sky dream: a futuristic device which redirects quake energy harmlessly...
You're forgetting, this is RonInBS posting. If we all subscribed to his worldview, anything that he says would be correct and anything that everyone else says would therefore be wrong.
It is not that far from St Nicholas Avenue to Broadway. Plus, none of your fancy flying junctions would be needed.
Actually, because there are already 6 traks between 125th and just north of 135th on the CPW line, the construction of such junctions would be relatively simple.
There isn't money in the capital plan for yours either!!!
it's too expensive
I didn't know you had the ability to magically calculate the costs of engineering projects.
and it will not happen in the forseeable future
And yours will?
There isn't money in the capital plan for yours either!!!
it's too expensive
I didn't know you had the ability to magically calculate the costs of engineering projects.
and it will not happen in the forseeable future
And yours will?
On the other hand, a very short addition to the SAS, enough to plug it into the D line is fiscally feasible
provide an effective one-seat East Side alternative to IRT Lex riders, which your plan will not do.
What exactly are your definitions of "short" and "effective"?
Then run the T up the Washington Heights line and allow it to transfer to 1/9 at 168th.
By tying the T into the CPW at 125th, you're saving money, and allowing for one-seat rides all the way up to upper manhattan and Concourse in the Bronx. (If you go that way). If the TA did indeed decide to build a new line up to riverside park, that'd be great and I agree that a plan entailing that would be much better. But that's not going to happen. The next best thing would be a tie in to the CPW line, which would be quite easy, thanks to the 6 track config in the area. If 1/9 passengers need the T that badly, there are plenty of crosstown buses that will connect them to the subway.
I admit that I did not consider the comparative efficiency of a bus across 125 Street (which we have now, but not with a dedicated lane).
My leaning would be in favor of a subway on 125 St, but I have not looked at it rigorously.
Um, yes. Have you ever seen the crosstown buses in the area? They're frequent, crowded, and slow. Two of the routes run articulated buses.
If they are headed to a point north of 59th, then you'd have a point, but I'm inclined to think that most are headed to midtown.
And how else are they supposed to get to the lower SAS? The only route I see entails a double transfer with lots of backtracking (down to 42nd, back up to 72nd, back down again). At 125th there's still backtracking, but at least it's only a single transfer.
By tying the T into the CPW at 125th, you're saving money, and allowing for one-seat rides all the way up to upper manhattan and Concourse in the Bronx. (If you go that way).
Saving money? How can running extraneous service be construed as saving money? The Concourse-Jerome corridor already has 25-30 tph, and the trains aren't very crowded. In addition to the operational expense, the capital expenses of tying the new line into the existing line and of reconstructing one of the Bronx terminals are substantial. How are you so sure that this is cheaper than continuing the line a fraction of a mile further west to Broadway?
Why is a one-seat ride for the Concourse-Jerome corridor (which already has one-seat access to the East Side a few blocks west) more important than a two-seat ride for Broadway (which currently doesn't even have two-seat access to the East Side apart from the crosstown lines themselves, unless you count the transfers at 149th and Fulton, which aren't even directly available to local passengers)? There would still be transfer access at 125th Street from all intersecting lines, including the B, D, and 4.
If the TA did indeed decide to build a new line up to riverside park, that'd be great and I agree that a plan entailing that would be much better. But that's not going to happen.
Do you mean Riverbank State Park? They're entirely different beasts. (Just a suggestion: your arguments might be more convincing if you were more familiar with the areas in question.)
How do you know it's not going to happen?
The next best thing would be a tie in to the CPW line, which would be quite easy, thanks to the 6 track config in the area.
Not as easy as you might think. The 90-degree turn will be the challenge. The new line will have to end up directly below the existing line. You think that's cheap?
If 1/9 passengers need the T that badly, there are plenty of crosstown buses that will connect them to the subway.
Sure, if they have 30-45 minutes to spare. Have you ever ridden the crosstown buses? The M86 often takes a good 10 minutes just to load up at Broadway -- and it hasn't even gone anywhere yet!
And busy bus routes are operationally more expensive than subway replacements.
Ok, but the subway will run on MOST of the bus' route.
And how else are they supposed to get to the lower SAS? The only route I see entails a double transfer with lots of backtracking (down to 42nd, back up to 72nd, back down again). At 125th there's still backtracking, but at least it's only a single transfer.
You have this problem: You look at NYC in terms of subway lines, and not surface destinations. You've made arguments, numerous times, basesd on the fact that one train line has more transfers, and thus this line is better to a certain area. But, if another line is serving the SAME AREA, then it's possible you could eliminate a rider's need to transfer entirely.
Now then, considering all of this, I said people headed to the EAST SIDE. Does Lexington serve the east side too. Yes, Lexington PRESENTLY serves the east side. 1/9 riders have goof transfers to that line now. I know, I know, you're gonna feed me some crap about how people will NEED 2nd av when it opens. If they want 2nd av, they can walk to the IND when at the Upper West side. Or, they can walk when they get off of the Lex trains. If that's just too inconvenient, then they can take a taxi. Next, you'll complain that it's wrong to ask these people to walk the extra blocks to the IND (or from the IRT). You complain incessantly about having to walk 2 or 3 blocks. For most New Yorkers outside of Manhattan, they have to walk that far to get to ANY train. If the T were tied in to the IND, it gives these people the service in the area. If they're too lazy to walk to it (Or take a bus, as I suggested) then they don't deserve it.
Saving money? How can running extraneous service be construed as saving money? The Concourse-Jerome corridor already has 25-30 tph, and the trains aren't very crowded. In addition to the operational expense, the capital expenses of tying the new line into the existing line and of reconstructing one of the Bronx terminals are substantial. How are you so sure that this is cheaper than continuing the line a fraction of a mile further west to Broadway?
When did I say that I believed the line should run to bronx and have a new terminal?!? I believe my idea was WASHINGTON HEIGHTS. What is wrong with subtalkers? Why can't you guys differentiate between 3 seperate subtalkers ideas?
Do you mean Riverbank State Park? They're entirely different beasts. (Just a suggestion: your arguments might be more convincing if you were more familiar with the areas in question.)
Yeah, I made a mistake here. Guess that makes all of my arguments invalid.
How do you know it's not going to happen?
What is wrong with you?
Not as easy as you might think. The 90-degree turn will be the challenge. The new line will have to end up directly below the existing line. You think that's cheap?
A tie in with a line that already has the space for such a link-up would be cheaper than extending the line further west.
Sure, if they have 30-45 minutes to spare. Have you ever ridden the crosstown buses? The M86 often takes a good 10 minutes just to load up at Broadway -- and it hasn't even gone anywhere yet!
Where is the M86 bus? 125th st? 110st? No, all the way down at 86th st. You can say ANYTHING you want, but a subway at 125th WILL NOT have any bearing on the M86.
The buses it would effect are:
M100, M101, M60, Bx15, M116, M2, M3, and M4 (this is at the least). It will alleviate crowding on some of these buses not simply because it runs CROSSTOWN, but beause it also runs UPTOWN.
In the David Greenberger world, west side residents NEVER have to walk to the subway. It MUST connect to the Broadway IRT, even though it can be just as effective 2-3 blocks away.
The shuttle is inconvenient. A double transfer is inconvenient. Surely you agree that, for someone starting on Broadway, a double transfer from the IRT is still far superior to a double transfer from the IND (with an extra ten-minute walk at one end and an extra five-minute walk at the other, with longer headways to boot). Both are inconvenient, but why not keep the necessary inconvenience to a minimum?
You'll have to excuse me here, but I can't parse this sentence. Could I ask you to rephrase it?
You have this problem: You look at NYC in terms of subway lines, and not surface destinations. You've made arguments, numerous times, basesd on the fact that one train line has more transfers, and thus this line is better to a certain area. But, if another line is serving the SAME AREA, then it's possible you could eliminate a rider's need to transfer entirely.
Now then, considering all of this, I said people headed to the EAST SIDE. Does Lexington serve the east side too. Yes, Lexington PRESENTLY serves the east side. 1/9 riders have goof transfers to that line now. I know, I know, you're gonna feed me some crap about how people will NEED 2nd av when it opens. If they want 2nd av, they can walk to the IND when at the Upper West side. Or, they can walk when they get off of the Lex trains. If that's just too inconvenient, then they can take a taxi. Next, you'll complain that it's wrong to ask these people to walk the extra blocks to the IND (or from the IRT). You complain incessantly about having to walk 2 or 3 blocks. For most New Yorkers outside of Manhattan, they have to walk that far to get to ANY train. If the T were tied in to the IND, it gives these people the service in the area. If they're too lazy to walk to it (Or take a bus, as I suggested) then they don't deserve it.
Run that by me again? There are no direct transfers between either of the West Side lines and either of the (existing and proposed) East Side lines anywhere in Manhattan north of Fulton Street.
That's a problem. I suggested a partial solution to that problem: offer transfers from the SAS at 125th Street to all north-south lines. That way everybody in Manhattan (near the subway) would have two-seat access, at worst, to the East Side. Right now, lots of us are stuck with three-seat access.
When did I say that I believed the line should run to bronx and have a new terminal?!? I believe my idea was WASHINGTON HEIGHTS. What is wrong with subtalkers? Why can't you guys differentiate between 3 seperate subtalkers ideas?
I thought you were reopening the Concourse option. My apologies if I misunderstood.
Washington Heights is better, if only because it's a shorter ride and because it has a transfer to the IRT. But it still raises questions of terminal capacity at either 168th or 207th, and it still dumps much more service into the neighborhood than it needs -- between the A, C, and 1/9, it already has 30-35 tph.
Yeah, I made a mistake here. Guess that makes all of my arguments invalid.
No, certainly not, but it does cast doubt on your understanding of the needs of the communities in question. After all, if you can't tell Riverside Park from Riverbank State Park, you probably haven't spent much time in the area.
A tie in with a line that already has the space for such a link-up would be cheaper than extending the line further west.
That's not at all clear to me. The westward extension is only a fraction of a mile; if you've already pulled it to St. Nicholas, you're most of the way there already.
Where is the M86 bus? 125th st? 110st? No, all the way down at 86th st. You can say ANYTHING you want, but a subway at 125th WILL NOT have any bearing on the M86.
Absolutely false. With a transfer at 125th Street, it will be faster (and much more reliable) to ride five stops up on the 1/9 and take the SAS across town and back down than to ride a slow, crowded bus from Broadway to 2nd and transfer there. Except for the usually-quick jaunt through Central Park, the M86 is often slower than walking. Broadway to 2nd is a long walk.
The buses it would effect are:
M100, M101, M60, Bx15, M116, M2, M3, and M4 (this is at the least). It will alleviate crowding on some of these buses not simply because it runs CROSSTOWN, but beause it also runs UPTOWN.
But those buses aren't crowded, except on 125th itself. The M2, M3, M100, and M101 don't need relief. The Bx15 runs straight across 125th to the river (just like my proposed subway line), the M60 and M116 both run southwest (so a northwest-bearing line wouldn't help), and the M4 picks up most of its crowd well south of Washington Heights (see below).
In the David Greenberger world, west side residents NEVER have to walk to the subway. It MUST connect to the Broadway IRT, even though it can be just as effective 2-3 blocks away.
How's that?
Incidentally, Broadway just south of 125th is home to a large collection of colleges, including one major university. It is geologically cut off from the IND. Why shouldn't they be able to walk half a mile or ride one stop up to 125th and catch the SAS right there? If anything would take a load off the M4, it's direct SAS access to Morningside Heights.
A subway running from 2nd av to St Nicholas would cover most of a crosstown bus route.
Run that by me again? There are no direct transfers between either of the West Side lines and either of the (existing and proposed) East Side lines anywhere in Manhattan north of Fulton Street.
That's a problem. I suggested a partial solution to that problem: offer transfers from the SAS at 125th Street to all north-south lines. That way everybody in Manhattan (near the subway) would have two-seat access, at worst, to the East Side. Right now, lots of us are stuck with three-seat access.
A connection to the IND would satisfy that need. Its only 3 blocks away. Stop being lazy and walk. I have to do it regardless.
Washington Heights is better, if only because it's a shorter ride and because it has a transfer to the IRT. But it still raises questions of terminal capacity at either 168th or 207th, and it still dumps much more service into the neighborhood than it needs -- between the A, C, and 1/9, it already has 30-35 tph.
The Washington Hts. terminals (207, Dyckman, 168th) could handle the extra trains. I fail to see how I'm overserving an area, when the area you want to send trains to is, by your own statements, underpopulated. Sending the T up the IND trackage would allow these people one seat rides.
That's not at all clear to me. The westward extension is only a fraction of a mile; if you've already pulled it to St. Nicholas, you're most of the way there already.
If you think that Building a new branch to Riverbank State Park would be just as cheap as ending the line right there, then there's nothing that I can do to change that perception. I mean, this is obvious.
No, certainly not, but it does cast doubt on your understanding of the needs of the communities in question. After all, if you can't tell Riverside Park from Riverbank State Park, you probably haven't spent much time in the area.
Don't see how an extension to Riverside instead of riverbank would be all that different, except for the direction. In fact, an extension to Riverside Park Might be used more. You're just nitpicking here.
Absolutely false. With a transfer at 125th Street, it will be faster (and much more reliable) to ride five stops up on the 1/9 and take the SAS across town and back down than to ride a slow, crowded bus from Broadway to 2nd and transfer there. Except for the usually-quick jaunt through Central Park, the M86 is often slower than walking. Broadway to 2nd is a long walk.
This is a load of bs. While it MIGHT be faster, it would be just as fast to head downtown, especially since most people are going that way anyway. The M86 will still be crowded. Not many people will think to head back uptown to 125th st.
But those buses aren't crowded, except on 125th itself. The M2, M3, M100, and M101 don't need relief. The Bx15 runs straight across 125th to the river (just like my proposed subway line), the M60 and M116 both run southwest (so a northwest-bearing line wouldn't help), and the M4 picks up most of its crowd well south of Washington Heights (see below).
While buses might not "need relief", elimination or reduction of their frequency results in cost savings. Additionally, many of these people would likely transfer to the 2nd av line, or the CPW line (in the case of M60 and M116).
Incidentally, Broadway just south of 125th is home to a large collection of colleges, including one major university. It is geologically cut off from the IND. Why shouldn't they be able to walk half a mile or ride one stop up to 125th and catch the SAS right there? If anything would take a load off the M4, it's direct SAS access to Morningside Heights.
I don't see why bus service could not be structured so that These people have a bus ride to 125th/St Nick.
What I'm looking at is the cost/benefit of such a connection. I think that it would be better for more people if the Line ran up to 207th. If there was the money for as much new line as we wanted, then go for your extension. But How far uptown is the line being extended? (what is the exact street where Riverbank begins. I can't remember it myself) I don't think the amount of people that you might lure to the line would be enough, when you could just get people off of the crowded 1/9 line and get them to ride the IND. (wouldn't that help you?) It seems to make the most sense to run the train up to Washington Heights, where you could get people off of the 1/9, instead of encouraging them to ride it and transfer. The same could be said to the south.
No, only about half. If the line curves north to connect to the IND, it can't stop at 125th and St. Nick. (Well, it can, if you want to build a jughandle like the one the 5 uses in the Bronx, but I'm assuming that isn't what you have in mind.) Lenox would be the westernmost stop on 125th. That's closer to the East River than to the Hudson River!
A connection to the IND would satisfy that need.
It would? The nearest transfer would be at 145th.
Its only 3 blocks away.
Are you being deliberately deceptive? It's 3 long east-west blocks away. That's half a mile. What's normally characterized as 3 blocks is just over an eighth of a mile.
It's a ten-minute walk, plus worse headways, plus a longer ride to 145th, when the line could just as easily come straight to 125th and Broadway.
Stop being lazy and walk. I have to do it regardless.
One of the benefits of living in a high-density neighborhood is frequent and nearby transit access. I live in one of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the U.S. You don't. Of course you have to walk.
The Washington Hts. terminals (207, Dyckman, 168th) could handle the extra trains.
PROFF, please?
I fail to see how I'm overserving an area, when the area you want to send trains to is, by your own statements, underpopulated.
Washington Heights was developed in response to the subway in the 30's. It's not going to be developed any further because a new route is added to an existing line.
Sending the T up the IND trackage would allow these people one seat rides.
While denying even two-seat rides to other people.
If you think that Building a new branch to Riverbank State Park would be just as cheap as ending the line right there, then there's nothing that I can do to change that perception. I mean, this is obvious.
Yet later on you admit that you don't even remember where RSP is. Isn't it kind of important to know where the line's running before announcing that it's too expensive?
Don't see how an extension to Riverside instead of riverbank would be all that different, except for the direction. In fact, an extension to Riverside Park Might be used more. You're just nitpicking here.
No, I'm not nitpicking -- I'm pointing out that you're probably not very familiar with ridership patterns in the area.
My first version of this idea, a few years ago, was in fact to run the line to Grant's Tomb, in Riverside Park. But then it hit me that, due to the terrain, a terminal at Grant's Tomb would be deep underground, while if the line turned northward it could run at the surface.
This is a load of bs. While it MIGHT be faster, it would be just as fast to head downtown, especially since most people are going that way anyway. The M86 will still be crowded. Not many people will think to head back uptown to 125th st.
Head downtown to where? To Times Square? Then what? Take the Q up to 72nd and transfer there to a T? That's three transfers and a lot of backtracking. Take the shuttle to Grand Central and transfer to the 4/5/6? That's still three transfers, plus the long walk from Park. Take the 7 to Grand Central and use the walking transfer to the T? Again, three transfers and a long walk.
If Woodhaven residents think of riding out to Jamaica to transfer to the E back into Manhattan, then Upper West Side residents will think of riding up to 125th and back down.
Of course, the M86 will still be crowded. The M86 was crowded before free intermodal transfers. The M86 serves a lot of points between Broadway and 2nd. But you suggested that Upper West Siders who need the SAS should all pile onto the crosstown buses to get there. That's unreasonable.
While buses might not "need relief", elimination or reduction of their frequency results in cost savings.
Service can't be reduced unless peak loading goes down. Peak loading on the routes in question is well south of 125th Street. Ridership reductions near 125th doesn't diminish the need for service in the slightest, since service levels aren't currently set according to ridership at 125th.
I don't see why bus service could not be structured so that These people have a bus ride to 125th/St Nick.
Have you seen the traffic on 125th? That's a 20-minute bus ride right there, plus the wait. And 125th won't do, since there won't be a station there -- the bus would have to go up to 145th or across to Lenox.
Given how many people are coming from Morningside Heights, why should they have to pile onto buses to reach the subway? Couldn't the subway come to them?
What I'm looking at is the cost/benefit of such a connection. I think that it would be better for more people if the Line ran up to 207th. If there was the money for as much new line as we wanted, then go for your extension. But How far uptown is the line being extended? (what is the exact street where Riverbank begins. I can't remember it myself) I don't think the amount of people that you might lure to the line would be enough, when you could just get people off of the crowded 1/9 line and get them to ride the IND. (wouldn't that help you?) It seems to make the most sense to run the train up to Washington Heights, where you could get people off of the 1/9, instead of encouraging them to ride it and transfer. The same could be said to the south.
Let me run through my proposal again, in greater detail.
The essential piece: Run straight across 125th to Broadway. Terminate there, if necessary. If running the line to Broadway is more expensive than connecting it to the IND, I'll eat my hat.
The optional piece: Continue as a cut-and-cover line to the Hudson. (125th is wide and is lined with light industry, so cut-and-cover is fine.) Recall that 125th runs on a slant -- at the Hudson it's already up around 130th. Curve right and build a station on the Hudson between 131st and 133rd. Fairway is between 132nd and 133rd. The offramp from the HHP touches down at 133rd. Run up alongside the ramp. The south end of RSP is where the ramp meets the highway, around 136th or 137th. Done. Alternatively, or in addition, swing back inland to a yard in the low 130's, north of the Manhattanville Bus Depot and southwest of the 137th Street Yard. This is all optional, but once the SAS reaches Broadway, it's an inexpensive add-on.
Much in the same way that the BMT Broadway-Bridge Line has its first stop at 14th st.
Are you being deliberately deceptive? It's 3 long east-west blocks away. That's half a mile. What's normally characterized as 3 blocks is just over an eighth of a mile.
It's a ten-minute walk, plus worse headways, plus a longer ride to 145th, when the line could just as easily come straight to 125th and Broadway.
The blocks are as long as the ones in my 'hood, and I have to walk 4 of them to get to the G train.
If more people ride the B/C, then headways will increase (from the already respectable 15tph)
One of the benefits of living in a high-density neighborhood is frequent and nearby transit access. I live in one of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the U.S. You don't. Of course you have to walk.
While you are entitled to have all the service, no one said both trunk lines had to have connections to all of manhattan. I didn't say that the 1/9 had to be eliminated, I said that if you wanted east side service, you would have to use ONE line. Or, ride downtown and use the transfer that you hate. OR, take a bus.
The Washington Hts. terminals (207, Dyckman, 168th) could handle the extra trains.
PROFF, please?
207th st can handle 18tph (similar WTC terminal)
Dyckman terminal can handle 10 tph (similar Broad St terminal. Some 207th-bound trains could skip Dyckman in fact)
168th st could handle 15tph (similar continental terminal.)
That's 43 tph. there's your PROFF. Not like you didn't know this.
Washington Heights was developed in response to the subway in the 30's. It's not going to be developed any further because a new route is added to an existing line.
I never said it would. I said it would serve EXISTING RIDERS. It's like you aren't reading what I'm posting.
While denying even two-seat rides to other people.
If these people don't mind walking, they can have a 2 seat ride. This is the 3rd time I've said this.
Yet later on you admit that you don't even remember where RSP is. Isn't it kind of important to know where the line's running before announcing that it's too expensive?
I said I didn't know exactly where it's southern edge was, or Just how far up you wanted to extend it. Even if it only went to the River, it would still be just as expensive.
No, I'm not nitpicking -- I'm pointing out that you're probably not very familiar with ridership patterns in the area.
There's a difference between ridership patterns, and the location of a park. I ride the IND and IRT up there on a daily basis (usually the IND though).
Head downtown to where? To Times Square? Then what? Take the Q up to 72nd and transfer there to a T? That's three transfers and a lot of backtracking. Take the shuttle to Grand Central and transfer to the 4/5/6? That's still three transfers, plus the long walk from Park. Take the 7 to Grand Central and use the walking transfer to the T? Again, three transfers and a long walk.
If Woodhaven residents think of riding out to Jamaica to transfer to the E back into Manhattan, then Upper West Side residents will think of riding up to 125th and back down.
Of course, the M86 will still be crowded. The M86 was crowded before free intermodal transfers. The M86 serves a lot of points between Broadway and 2nd. But you suggested that Upper West Siders who need the SAS should all pile onto the crosstown buses to get there. That's unreasonable.
I'm saying they have 3 options:
1. Continue getting to the East Side the way they do now.
2. Walk to the IND and take it to 125th
3. Take a bus to the IND, and take it to 125th.
Why is it unreasonable to believe that people could continue their present method of travel?
Service can't be reduced unless peak loading goes down. Peak loading on the routes in question is well south of 125th Street. Ridership reductions near 125th doesn't diminish the need for service in the slightest, since service levels aren't currently set according to ridership at 125th.
If there are less people coming from uptown, then there will be less people at midtown. DUH!
Have you seen the traffic on 125th? That's a 20-minute bus ride right there, plus the wait. And 125th won't do, since there won't be a station there -- the bus would have to go up to 145th or across to Lenox.
Given how many people are coming from Morningside Heights, why should they have to pile onto buses to reach the subway? Couldn't the subway come to them?
1. Again, there would be a station at Douglass Blvd, with passages to 145th.
2. Nobody is taking away their present subway service. I said if they want the T line, they can take a bus to get to it. Why dont you complain about the fact they don't have direct Flushing service? Or direct Broadway service?
Let me run through my proposal again, in greater detail.
The essential piece: Run straight across 125th to Broadway. Terminate there, if necessary. If running the line to Broadway is more expensive than connecting it to the IND, I'll eat my hat.
The optional piece: Continue as a cut-and-cover line to the Hudson. (125th is wide and is lined with light industry, so cut-and-cover is fine.) Recall that 125th runs on a slant -- at the Hudson it's already up around 130th. Curve right and build a station on the Hudson between 131st and 133rd. Fairway is between 132nd and 133rd. The offramp from the HHP touches down at 133rd. Run up alongside the ramp. The south end of RSP is where the ramp meets the highway, around 136th or 137th. Done. Alternatively, or in addition, swing back inland to a yard in the low 130's, north of the Manhattanville Bus Depot and southwest of the 137th Street Yard. This is all optional, but once the SAS reaches Broadway, it's an inexpensive add-on.
Again, even if the extension to broadway were inexpensive (I highly doubt this), the money could be better spent OTHER PLACES. Screw RSP and this undeveloped area. Plenty of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens Riders have NO subway service, and you're throwing money out of the window on extensions to places that would benefit nobody.
What about Canal Street?
Not at all. Its first stop in Manhattan is at Canal, its local counterpart stops as far south as Whitehall, and even 14th is quite far south. Lenox is closer to the East River than the Hudson River. A line that only stops as far west as Lenox is not a useful crosstown line.
The blocks are as long as the ones in my 'hood, and I have to walk 4 of them to get to the G train.
You don't see the difference between walking ten minutes to the nearest subway station and walking ten minutes past the nearest subway station to one with worse service?
If more people ride the B/C, then headways will increase (from the already respectable 15tph)
Peak. Unlike much of the city, the subway is our primary mode of transportation 24/7, not just during rush hour. On weekends the CPW local has 6 tph at best, assuming nothing goes wrong (and much often goes wrong). The Broadway local has 10 tph on weekends and for the past year has been a lot more reliable.
While you are entitled to have all the service, no one said both trunk lines had to have connections to all of manhattan. I didn't say that the 1/9 had to be eliminated, I said that if you wanted east side service, you would have to use ONE line. Or, ride downtown and use the transfer that you hate. OR, take a bus.
But why? If there were no reasonable alternative, I'd be satisfied. But I've posted a reasonable alternative. What's wrong with it?
I never said it would. I said it would serve EXISTING RIDERS. It's like you aren't reading what I'm posting.
But existing riders are already more than adequately served.
Yes, some need to go to the East Side. They can transfer at 125th, just like those coming from the south.
If these people don't mind walking, they can have a 2 seat ride. This is the 3rd time I've said this.
Fine. Those who are willing to walk 10-15 minutes and wait longer for a train only need to backtrack an extra two miles rather than an extra four miles. But why couldn't they just transfer at 125th from either line?
There's a difference between ridership patterns, and the location of a park. I ride the IND and IRT up there on a daily basis (usually the IND though).
That doesn't give you a very good view of bus ridership patterns, nor of ridership patterns on local trains (assuming you take the express -- a reasonable assumption, given your other posts).
I'm saying they have 3 options:
1. Continue getting to the East Side the way they do now.
2. Walk to the IND and take it to 125th
3. Take a bus to the IND, and take it to 125th.
You mean to 145th.
Why is it unreasonable to believe that people could continue their present method of travel?
Because their present method of travel is unnecessarily complicated and time-consuming. We have an opportunity to improve it. Why not?
If there are less people coming from uptown, then there will be less people at midtown. DUH!
Very few people ride Manhattan buses for more than a few miles. The people on the M101 on 125th Street are not the same people on the M101 at its point of maximum loading.
1. Again, there would be a station at Douglass Blvd, with passages to 145th.
Again? This is the first I've seen you say anything about this.
I assume you mean 125th. Okay, that's an improvement. But Douglass is a short block from St. Nick, so if there were a station at Douglass, the curve would be very sharp. I'd think that the curve would realistically have to begin further east. Which means that in addition to the long walk to the IND, passengers from the south also have to walk east to the SAS. Unnecessary, and therefore unacceptable.
2. Nobody is taking away their present subway service. I said if they want the T line, they can take a bus to get to it. Why dont you complain about the fact they don't have direct Flushing service? Or direct Broadway service?
They have single-transfer access to the 7 and to the BMT. Single-transfer access is fine. That's all I think they should have to the SAS.
Again, even if the extension to broadway were inexpensive (I highly doubt this), the money could be better spent OTHER PLACES. Screw RSP and this undeveloped area. Plenty of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens Riders have NO subway service, and you're throwing money out of the window on extensions to places that would benefit nobody.
Again, let's split my proposal in two.
Why do you think the extension to Broadway is more expensive than your proposed connection? Same distance but no half-mile underpinning of an existing line. Looks much cheaper to me.
The optional extension past Broadway is dirt cheap: a few short blocks of cut-and-cover and a few more blocks on the surface. I think it might as well be done, if nothing else for the yard opportunity. If you'd rather spend the money elsewhere, be my guest -- although I doubt you'd get very far with it.
So the crosstown Line could have a stop that connects to the CPW IND at 125th, in the same way that Broadway presently does this at Canal St. A stop could have it's middle at Douglass Blvd, and extend halfway to 125th. Then, it could connect via pasageway to 125th IND. The Line could then begin curving to meet the St. Nick line.
You don't see the difference between walking ten minutes to the nearest subway station and walking ten minutes past the nearest subway station to one with worse service?
Peak. Unlike much of the city, the subway is our primary mode of transportation 24/7, not just during rush hour. On weekends the CPW local has 6 tph at best, assuming nothing goes wrong (and much often goes wrong). The Broadway local has 10 tph on weekends and for the past year has been a lot more reliable.
You obviously missed what I said. I said that if more people rode the line, service would increase. You could have B service on weekends as well if enough people rode the line. You could also have increased rudh hour B service. If more people are riding the line, then you can ADD SERVICE.
Fine. Those who are willing to walk 10-15 minutes and wait longer for a train only need to backtrack an extra two miles rather than an extra four miles. But why couldn't they just transfer at 125th from either line?
Because there is no reason we should waste the money because you're too lazy to walk to the line you need. We've already established that you don't have to take the B/C, and you can still reach the east side through use of the 42nd st shuttle. So you have to transfer twice, many New Yorkers have to do this anyways, some even opt to do this. You have the option of the 2 seat ride or the 3 seat ride, and some people now have 1 seat service.
Since your always talking about how your neighborhood is the most crowded, Where is the most dense part of said crowding? Is it between Broadway and Central Park West? Or West of Broadway? I'm curious.
That doesn't give you a very good view of bus ridership patterns, nor of ridership patterns on local trains (assuming you take the express -- a reasonable assumption, given your other posts).
When riding the IND, yes. When riding the IRT, it's not even possible.
You mean to 145th.
We've established that a station CAN be built at 125th.
Because their present method of travel is unnecessarily complicated and time-consuming. We have an opportunity to improve it. Why not?
Because we are improving it, the cheapest way possible, and at the same time luring people off of the crowded Broadway IRT. And if these people don't want to walk a few extra blocks, they still have relatively painless access to the east side.
I also don't see why you can't take a bus on the weekend.
Again? This is the first I've seen you say anything about this.
I assume you mean 125th. Okay, that's an improvement. But Douglass is a short block from St. Nick, so if there were a station at Douglass, the curve would be very sharp. I'd think that the curve would realistically have to begin further east. Which means that in addition to the long walk to the IND, passengers from the south also have to walk east to the SAS. Unnecessary, and therefore unacceptable.
It would not be a long walk. But of course, that makes it unnessecary.
The curve would not have to begin further east. The BMT curve really doesn't at Canal st (which is what I implied at the beginnig of my last post. I thought that you understood it.)
They have single-transfer access to the 7 and to the BMT. Single-transfer access is fine. That's all I think they should have to the SAS.
Which is exactly what they'll have, If they take the right train. If not, they have the easy transfer to the 42nd shuttle. You can say: "IT SUCKS!", but the shuttle transfer between the 2 IRT lines remains one of the easiest 3-seat transfers in the entire system. So, they have a choice, and either one is relatively simple.
Again, let's split my proposal in two.
Why do you think the extension to Broadway is more expensive than your proposed connection? Same distance but no half-mile underpinning of an existing line. Looks much cheaper to me.
The optional extension past Broadway is dirt cheap: a few short blocks of cut-and-cover and a few more blocks on the surface. I think it might as well be done, if nothing else for the yard opportunity. If you'd rather spend the money elsewhere, be my guest -- although I doubt you'd get very far with it.
I don't know why you think that this Broadway extension would be cheaper. First off, once the turn is under the trackways of the IND, then it would be a simple digging out of the line. I dont know where this 1/2 mile figure comes from, but it's ludicrous. The curve could be lined up by 126/7th.
In your proposal, you want to use cut and cover? Yeah sure, I can see that happening. 'You want to dig up a minority neighborhood so the rich people can have easy subway access?' Especially after they built the 2nd av with mostly TBM. Do you really think that you'll be able to use cut and cover?
We also have to underpin buildings, and construct an extra station.
Another thing is your assertion that the line will encourage new development. You think a surface line will encourage development? That's crap. OTOH, if Washington Heights has one-seat access to the East side, that actually might encourage new development.
I fail to see why you can't simply walk over to the IND. Or take one of the frequently running buses. Or just use the 42nd st shuttle (again, the train runs so often, that it's the closest to 2-seat access you can get w/o actual 2-seat access). There is no reason to connect to the 1/9 in what would be a difficult transfer (where is the IRT at 125th?)
Highest density is Columbus to West End. So slightly more east of Broadway than west.
Where is west end?
Having a terminal at Lenox Avenue is a whole lot better than Lexington Avenue.. since the 2/3 does go to the westside.
N Bwy
What made you say this?
Then why ride the G train, if the J train is on your doorstep?
The J train might not go anywhere useful in Manhattan, but at least it goes to Manhattan.
Why wouldn't an extension with the Broadway line not help anyone? First, the Bwy line is all by itself.. why deny passengers eastside access?
I would like to see the 2nd Avenue line extended to Broadway. Connecting to the St. Nicholas line is a waste of construction money. And it only adds to the merging conflicts on that line already. Besides, the St. Nicholas line has too much service.. It was over built.
N Bwy
"Besides, the St. Nicholas line has too much service.. It was over built."
According to whom? Nonsense...the IND there provides the same kind of service on the West Side that the Lex provides on the East Side. And it branches so the upper tip of Manhattan and the Bronx both get good service.
The only difference is that IRT service is also available on the West Side. On the East Side, the "other" service is a bus (which is why we need the SAS).
"Connecting to the St. Nicholas line is a waste of construction money."
According to you. maybe. Not according to lots of other people. And the MTA is entertaining the idea. It would be one of the most politically intelligent and cost-effective moves the agency could make.
"And it only adds to the merging conflicts on that line already."
Wrong again. If I recvall correctly, there are six tracks there, right? The added merge would be rather trivial.
A Pelham Line recapture would be more useful.
It's only extraneous to you. Not to most other people, including some of the ones who make decisions.
"Why is a one-seat ride for the Concourse-Jerome corridor (which already has one-seat access to the East Side a few blocks west) more important than a two-seat ride for Broadway "
because this new service would pull passengers off the 4 train in the Bronx, which reduces Lexington Av subway crowding. Your plan doesn't do that.
Fortunately, your plan is compatible with mine. Mine has some political support (in Manhattan and the Bronx); yours does not. If mine does get done, a prerequisite for your plan (lengthening the 125 St tunnel)part is automatically implemented, and then you can step up to the plate and advocate for its completion. If you were successful, then we would see the benefits of your plan too (which I agree with, by the way).
You may hate politics, but you can have the most beautiful plan in the world (and you've posted some great theoretical stuff here) and a zero chance that it will ever happen - unless you pay attention to it.
Is that why you have, by your own admission, not involved yourself in sending your opinions (many of which are sound and well-reasoned) to your elected officials and MTA?
I DARE you to find one person who lives along the Concourse/Jerome corridor that isn't satisfied with current levels of service. I DARE you.
because this new service would pull passengers off the 4 train in the Bronx, which reduces Lexington Av subway crowding
You don't get it, do you? Nobody is going to go all the way to the West Side, making MORE stops, and going out of the way, just to avoid a few blocks' walk or get on a less crowded train. People stay off the G/R/V as it is because they want a [not much] faster commute, on the same line as the express. You really think somebody's gonna go slower, make more stops, AND go way out of the way? I want some of what YOU'RE smoking, it sounds pretty good.
Your plan doesn't do that.
And yours does?
Mine has some political support (in Manhattan and the Bronx); yours does not.
How do you know that? Has David's plan been proposed to any of them? How do you know they wouldn't support his more?
Is that why you have, by your own admission, not involved yourself in sending your opinions (many of which are sound and well-reasoned) to your elected officials and MTA?
Do you have specific knowledge that he hasn't?
However: If you post proof here that you have contacted elected officials about this, I will take back (at least part of) what I said about your being lazy and I will proclaim my appreciation of your mensch-ness!
And it doesn't matter what you advocated. Just that you did so!
Not relevant to this discussion.
"Nobody is going to go all the way to the West Side, making MORE stops, and going out of the way, just to avoid a few blocks' walk or get on a less crowded train."
You didn't understand what you read. I am not advocating for that. The primary benefit in the short term is a nod to Bronx politicians to support the SAS; the longer term benefit requires that the full length line be built.
Reread my post carefully. I am not referring to the Q train, which is the Stubway service (which is what your criticism applies to). I am referring to the T train, which will not go to the West side at all. It will parallel the Lex all the way down.
"How do you know that? Has David's plan been proposed to any of them?"
Not as of last year. And David hasn't made the effort to do so. I wish he would, though. I have no objection to it so long as the bellmouth connecting it to the D line is included.
"Do you have specific knowledge that he hasn't?"
His own posts over the years.
Not true.
"the Jerome Line underused,"
already, that fast, right out of the starting gate?
" and the new 2nd Ave subway more burdened than it needs to be."
You have a much more optimistic view of 2nd Av potential ridership than the TA has.
"It is probably safe to say that everyone who lives works from 3rd Ave East on the East Side will no longer use the Lexington Line, but will use the SAS instead. People west of 3rd Ave will prbably continue to use the Lex Line (of course there will be people in the exception to this rule if they are destined for a location that the further line from them has a better connection to) "
OK, that's reasonable.
You're the first person who has posted here predicting that the 2nd Av line could be overcrowded under certain conditions. Can I secretly hope and pray you are correct? It would validate the very reason for building the train!
Not if there are no expresses on 2nd av.
Pure nonsense on your part. The station spacings on the proposed SAS are close enough to express spacings so it doesn't matter. In addition, the T extension up the Grand Concourse would ultimately serve a full length SAS, so the destination of a T rider from the Bronx could be either Broadway or Whitehall Street.
We're doing both, and courting Bronx politicians.. Look at your subway map. If you're a #4 train rider and the T train now comes up the Concourse, you don't have to use the 4 anymore. In fact the T would be better if you're headed for the far east side or for a doctor's appointment at one of the big medical centers. And the T will ultimately go downtown. So if you're not riding the 4, that's an extra seat available to a rider getting on i Manhattan. Result? Less crowding on the Lex.
"Connecting the SAS to the CPW provides no incentive whatsoever for Lex riders to take this "T" train from Concourse instead of the 4."
False statement - just look at the map.
Not much of a burden. There's plenty of unused capacity in the Concourse tunnel.
"and the Jerome becomes a much more lightly used el. "
Right. That's the idea. Not much more lightly used, because the Lex still has much better connections than the full length 2nd Av T line to Whitehall Street will. But hopefully enough to free up seats.
Whereas now, there is an even split between Concourse and Jerome riders depending if they are bound for the East or West Sides.
And the importance of that even split is what? Will the Concourse tunnel platforms collapse if more people show up on them?
"It would be better to take over the Pelham El, as that would take off some burden of the Lex line,"
That's not a bad plan (though the TA rejected it), but it would require a new tunnel under the Hudson and entail problems with running both B Division and A Division equipment on the same track. And nobody will let you disconnect the Pelham line from the Lexington, so if that is what you meant, forget it.
OK. I *agree* with that. The only reason I even brought it up was because you said otherwise in one of your posts.
False statement - just look at the map.
To put this in perspective, let's look at it this way.
Let's say hypothetically that there was a junction between the 42nd Street shuttle and the West and East Side IRT, allowing 1/2/3/9 trains to switch over to the Lex south of 42nd. Say the #2 was routed through this connector. If you live along the White Plains Rd line, and work on the Lower East Side, will you take the #5, a direct service, that makes less stops, or the #2, a service that cuts all the way over to the West Side, and makes a few more stops? I doubt it. Concourse to Lower East Side is even more redundant to the #4 line. If such a connector WERE built with CPW (I'm not neccessarily saying it shouldn't), then what we need is Washington Heights-2nd Avenue service. This gives SAS riders a better option than the Concourse, since it's much easier to just take the Lex to the Concourse, but with Wash Hts as a destination, they could get to all the Upper West Side from 125 up to [168/191/200/207].
Getting more into opinions...I rather like David's plan.
Personally, I think the SAS should capture the Pelham and Jerome lines, with a new crossover installed south of 3 Av/138 St for 6 trains to turn and then the SAS would take over after there. The 4 would end at 149 St/Grand Concourse. That would basically pull everyone except #5 riders, and #6 riders who board at local stations west of 3rd Avenue.
I don't see how a service cut would be better service for the Nassau Street Line. Do you by any chance work for a transit agency somewhere?
Better service could be provided by providing junctions both ways onto the Nassau Street Line, giving a service pattern something like this:
(J)/(Z) 12tph 125th St - 2nd Av - Jamaica Skip-Stop
(M) 6tph Metropolitan - Broad
(T) 6tph 125th St - 2nd Av - Broad
the addition of Midtown service via 2nd. A. would be better. But I don't know exactly how many more people would benefit as compared to those who need Nassau/Centre St.
Anyone else having this problem?
Someone has a serious virus infection. Perhaps they've corrected their problems, since I haven't received one in 2 hours.
W32.Swen spreading very fast
And yes, that BOClean thingy that I wrote takes care of this as well.
I avoid the whole situation by using Mozilla Firebird and Thunderbird. Do your worst evil viruses!
And yes, that BOClean thingy that I wrote takes care of this as well.
Are you attempting to plug your products on Subtalk? At least give us a discount! :-P
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall1.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall-2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall3.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall4.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/wholesystem.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/wholesystem2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop1.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop3.pdf
Sean@Temple
Koi
...and here's the reason why...
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/
It Works!
(But they are large pesky PDF files so maybe the problem was with the size of the files to transfer?)
Sean@Temple - Thanks for the info.
Joe Kearney
Sean@Temple - Thanks for the info.
Joe Kearney
Sean@Temple - Thanks for the info.
Joe Kearney
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall1.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall-2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall3.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall4.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/wholesystem.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/wholesystem2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop1.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop2.pdf
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop3.pdf
Sean@Temple
Thanks,
Joe Kearney
<a href="http://talk.nycsubway.org">SubTalk</a>
Typing that will produce this:
SubTalk.
Or, using your files, type this:
<a href="http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/deliveryloop2.pdf">Delivery Loop 2</a>
to get:
Delivery Loop 2
I hope this helps!
Mark
Thanks
Joe Kearney
Thanks
Joe Kearney
<a href ="http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/cityhall3.pdf">Click Me</a>
That gets you this:
Click Me
So it's just a matter of typing in the <a href =" before the image file address, then closing the address with a quote, which is ", typing in an end bracket, which is >, typing in the words you will use to identify this specific image file, either just using the address again or doing what I did here and typing in "Click Me", typing in the open bracket, which is <, and ending that line with /a>
Not trying to be pedantic here. Just wanted to make my meaning as clear as I could so you could pick up on it. Give it a shot. Hell, I'm just learning this myself.
www.nsclean.com
I HAVE BEEN USING THIS FOR YEARS AND FIND THEIR SUPPORT NOTHING SHORT OF EXCELLENT
This is an unsolicited commercial endorsment.
Peace,
ANDEE
W32.Swen spreading very fast
Then again, anyone who knows what an IP address is knows how to avoid these simple viruses. Sigh.
Hold it. Last night in the AIM chat, someone remarked that his computer was slow and he thought it was infected with a virus. WHO WAS THAT???
----------------------------------------
Search results for: 24.169.6.51
OrgName: Road Runner
OrgID: RRMA
Address: 13241 Woodland Park Road
City: Herndon
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 20171
Country: US
NetRange: 24.160.0.0 - 24.170.127.255
CIDR: 24.160.0.0/13, 24.168.0.0/15, 24.170.0.0/17
NetName: ROAD-RUNNER-5
NetHandle: NET-24-160-0-0-1
Parent: NET-24-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: DNS1.RR.COM
NameServer: DNS2.RR.COM
NameServer: DNS3.RR.COM
NameServer: DNS4.RR.COM
Comment:
RegDate: 2000-06-09
Updated: 2002-08-22
TechHandle: ZS30-ARIN
TechName: ServiceCo LLC
TechPhone: +1-703-345-3416
TechEmail: abuse@rr.com
OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE10-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse
OrgAbusePhone: +1-703-345-3416
OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@rr.com
OrgTechHandle: IPTEC-ARIN
OrgTechName: IP Tech
OrgTechPhone: +1-703-345-3416
OrgTechEmail: abuse@rr.com
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-09-18 19:15
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
Is that possible? If so, that's scary.
Virusus can be attached to .jpegs, .gifs and any other multimedia type file. It executes the moment you open the file.
Um, I don't think so. Generally image interperaters don't run executable code from the file they are viewing as an image. .swf Flash files are another matter tho.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here ... check THIS out:
30 Microsoft holes STILL unrepaired
And finally, again, a reminder - this ISN'T "Virustalk" ...
Peace,
ANDEE
For a command prompt, in Windows ME, 98 or earlier, go to Start->Run and type the word command and press enter. For Windows NT, 2000 or XP, go to Start->Run and type the three letters cmd and press enter. The window that opens is a command prompt window.
In order to find out your IP then, you'll need to look at the entry marked DEFAULT GATEWAY and enter it into your web browser in order to log in to the router's configuration interface. It will ask for a password, you will have to consult the router's manual (or manufacturer's website) for that.
Are you nuckin futs? If SubTalkers tried doing that they would end up blowing the fuse to their kitchen. Instead, just click on the link below.
www.whatsmyipaddress.com
Find the tool here (the tool will fix the registry where your scan will only remove the infected files)
http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.swen.a@mm.removal.tool.html
http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/
False statement. Mac OS and Linux are NOT harder to break into. They are more efficient OSes and appeal to the purists in us much more than Microbloat does.
There is much to be said for them, but claims that they are more secure than Microsoft have no substance. Different vulnerabilities, that's all.
(Message previously submitted under wrong Subject)
Eh oh well, no computer is perfect, and most are far from it...
I love my my Dell Laptop dearly, however it has had 4 service visits in 1 year. Twice for problems that caused it to crash frequently, more often when I was doing serious work, I could read subtalk withuot problems, but try to type an essay for class and it was billy's blue screen of death for me! Now that I've switched to Opera I'm much much happier, Opera seems to blow Aiyee away.
Norton caught it all -- luckily Ihave the Live Update feature enabled. I'd say I got about half a dozen of them yesterday (Friday, 9-19). My weekly system scan (also done in the wee hours this morning..) showed the system to be clean.
Norton scans every incoming mail and if there's anything funny it catches it. Live Update is da bomb. Scans are done on Friday eves, since we're usually not home at that time.
You gotta be pro-active today. Last update has signatures of 65,074 viruses, but only about 7862 are considered wild.
Pierce BRONSON ? Reads like some obtuse joke about Pierce Brosnan and the late Charles Bronson.
The jist of the ruling was:
"...Photography on Transit Authority property is permitted..."
I hope this clarifies for anyone that photography is and will always be (for the time being) legal.
1) Change the ruling to protect NYCT's interests and allow people to easily obtain permits for personal photography (bad idea, this drives tourists away).
OR
2. Management at 370 Jay Street should not put NYCT's employees in the false pretense that photography is not allowed and stop everyone that takes pictures for any reason. Most of NYCT's personel are hard-working individuals and they should not be subjected to lies and deceit just to force them to challenge people taking legal pictures in the subway system or else lose their jobs.
3. Print a photography permit, with rules on the subway maps for all to see.
: ) Elias
Next step: Get an opinion letter in writing and carry it in your pocket.
Did you take a picture of the judge throwing out the summons? :-)
One thing I wasn't going to let this idiot cop do was make me take a day to show up in court.
Fortunately, Amtrak sponsored a photo contest this year, and I carry the press release with me to show that I was invited to take pictures. It specifically mentions parking lots, station platforms and public property as permitted places to shoot from.
I was going to carry my ruling with me at all times anyway.
I don't have the summons, it was kept by them for some reason.
Chris probably has his however.
Shame it takes 1 to take a fall, to benefit masses.
Thanks, brah!!!!!!
Koi
I can't even understand most of the word, but I have a general sense of what it says.
In laymens terms:
The officer alleged I used flash. I was successful in proving that I didn't use flash. Outside of that "use of ancilliary equipment" Photography is permitted on TA property.
Koi
Oops, I meant somehow show the judge that info at the hearing. I'm not sure how that could be done since cameras can't be brought into the hearing room.
Koi
It was admitted as acceptable evidence.
Monday, September 22nd, there will be a forum sponsored by Manhattan Community Board 8 and a number of elected officials, including Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields, to address the concerns of residents in that community about potential construction impacts of station locations and proposed station entrances. The forum begins at 7:00 P.M. at the New York Blood Center, 310 East 67th Street, between 1st and 2nd Avenues.
I want you guys and gals to show up at that meeting and support the subway! There will be some people there upset because their favorite luncheonette or pizza place may need to be razed to make room for subway station entrances. And there will be a few of the usual moronic comments about how the subway is the main point of invasion of the pod people and how the Upper East Side is all going to hell because of the subway.
I'm serious - I want you guys to show up and be counted. I would, and have in the past, but I'm over here in KC.
The venting is OK; in the end it doesn't amount to anything; and some legitimate concerns can be addressed with minor design changes. Ultimately the couple of restaurant owners whose places will need to go will shut up when they're handed enough cash to relocate. The xenophobes will get over it.
So who's going? Come on, step up to the plate and be counted! NO WIMPS AND NO EXCUSES. New York is counting on you!
Once again, Ron no-longer-in-Bayside, I believe public hearings are useless because the only people who show up are those who want to get their name in the paper, those looking to get paid, and those who have plenty of time because they have no life and are thus against everything. And everyone is looking for an excuse to spend the money everywhere but NYC. A potentially toxic combination.
We'll see about this time.
Public hearings may suck the big one, but so does democracy, in general - it's the best we can do.
So make the best of it.
"I'd go if I weren't an employee."
So Larry Littlefield, private citizen, can't go? That's news to me.
"only people who show up are those who want to get their name in the paper,"
Fine. Subtalkers can play that game too. Show up, smile for the cameras, and support the subway.
And try to control your crappy attitude Larry - there are young impressionable minds posting here. If you realy think the world is going to hell, you could have gotten off a long time ago.
Find some friends and encourage them to go.
I certainly don't hesitate to show up and spout off. But speaking at a public hearing on a topic related to your employer is a no no. Speaking in favor is not as bad as speaking against, but still it isn't what one ought to do, even if you try to disguise your affiliation.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/columnists/ny-libus0919,0,521178.story?coll=ny-linews-featured
They are not alone. Public employees live for overtime and pensions. Pay is low unless you include those two things, but can be high if you do include them.
Since such a high share of public employee compensation is in the fringe benefits (health care and pensions), it makes financial sense in the short run for managment to work them 80 hours per week, even at time and a half, rather than hiring someone another employee. That way, you are still paying only one set of benefits. Fomer Mayor Giuliani in effect created 5,000 extra police officers through overtime.
Of course, sooner or later employees revolt against mandatory overtime. And it comes back to haunt you when folks retire at pensions inflated by overtime in the last year.
Here's the problem. In business, you cut back in a recession because demand goes DOWN. In government, revenues go down but demand does not. And most people in the suburbs are happy to have those poor enough not to have cars do without. Maybe they'll move to New York City.
As for Upstate, government spending up there is off the charts, though it varies from county to county. Not on transit, though.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=171009&category=NATIONAL&newsdate=9/18/2003
It's about that big hole that we're all continuing to dig, I'll leave it at that.
Yes, I'm ticked at Bush too. People think Iraq was a big lie! Better a President who lies about sex than one who lies about money.
Yet there is a bigger problem than Bush's tax cuts. People are living longer without expecting to work longer. And no one is expecting to have to do the hard job of caring for their parents when they become disabled. Unless we face the hard fact about these things, and the tax cuts, they'll be no money for transit, schools, the poor, or anything else. Just debt service, pensions, and health care. And just to show how ahead of their time our elected official area, these three things are already destroying the city and state of New York.
Hence, expect to have to cover transit with the fare. Just hope they don't tax transit use to pay for other things.
These issues CAN be solved, but no politician is brave enough to mention what'll be needed, namely increased retirement age and some sort of outcome-based rationing for health care.
Bravo! Add to that some means testing for Medicare coverage. If you have a nice big fat bank account, a maid, a butler, a vacation home in the Hamptons, there is no need for you to have free unlimited care paid for by the government. You could be required to copay a little so another elderly person who has a much more limited income doesn't have to choose between eating today and buying medicine.
Excellent idea too, I hadn't thought of that. Good thing neither of us want to be politicians.
Here I don't agree. To me means tested benefits have failed -- too easy to game them, and too demeaning to those who actually receive them. I think benefits should be universal, like Social Security, or self selected by having to give something (even if not full value) in exchange, like workfare or paying the fare on the subway.
I'd put medical care in the universal category, but simply modifying the Medicare managed care program and expanding it to everyone, and eliminating all other pubic health care spending (direct and indirect via tax breaks). If you have a fat bank account, you simply deduct the amount the federal government is prepared to pay for health insurance from your taxes (no need to send money in two directions), otherwise the government pays for you. The government would pay enough for a basic level of care, but one could get more through higher insurance payments of higher out of pocket spending.
A couple of numbers. Including revenue foregone through tax breaks, the govenment is already covering -- directly or indirectly -- 70 percent of all third party health care expenditures right now. Excluding non-vital services like dental and chiropractors, it is covering 80 percent. Yet 50 percent of those working in the private sector have no employer funded health care at all. That data is for 2000, the peak of the boom. Who knows what it is today.
Back on topic -- one of the soaring costs from transit agencies and other government agencies is health insurance for employees. Public employees now account for a disproportionately large share of employees who actually have health insuance. I think what is happenening is that since hospitals continue to treat the uninsured, they are trying to make up for it by jacking up prices for the insured. That means that your transit fare is going, in part, for health care for the uninsured!
Make sense? That is just one of the economic distortions created by our health care finance system. If it didn't already exist, no one would dare to suggest it.
One problem s the soaring cost of prescription drugs. So one aspect of your plan would have to be that everybody gets generic drugs, but if you are rich, you can pay for the latesr really expensive drugs out of your own pocket.
I personally don't agree with your approach (just because you can game it doesn't mean we houldn't try) but I see its merits.
Something like that. The problem is that health care has become a high tech industry, which means that the state of the art is both overpriced and relatively ineffective. To give everyone the right to state of the art, at public expense, means that health care will eventually absorb 100 percent of GDP, and we'll starve to death. But try to make everyone equal without the high tech, and it never advances to the point where it is affordable and effective.
I say let the better off, and those willing to pay more for health care and less for other things. But basic health care -- ie the health care that was good enough in 1986, and the health care with a social benefit (ie. vaccines) -- should be universal.
Have you been offered a job? Are you accepting a job offer?
AHHH, but *something^ tells me you will still be bitching.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
(sorry dude, its getting old)
But make them interesting and factual, your parody of movies is now tiring and stale. How about posts of what happened during the 60's and 70's, your era? Like the following:
1966 and '80 Transit Strikes
The blizzards of '69, '78, '83, and '96 and anything else in between
The deferred maintenance era
The fare increases
Farewell to the last R1/9 series car.
The rise and fall of the NX, a railfanner's dream
The Union Square wreck
The first R62 set on the 4 line (I remember seeing that and I was amazed as a kid.)
Just a few examples.
But I was making some suggestions about starting some threads, I didn't mind your flooding (as some other Subtalkers object to) as long as you are on-topic.
But the instructions on the top of the Subtalk home page are simply: "...It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only."
Parody of movies to conform to rapid transit is fiction, not issues. Issues are based on facts from a source or what the person has observed.
Two design shortcomings by modern car designers have made gap fillers necessary.
--mark
The either all the doors or only the center doors or only the end doors on a car could be opened on the older cars. That's the second design shortcoming with the modern car design.
Who requires them?
Two design shortcomings by modern car designers have made gap fillers necessary.
Which are?
The southbound platform still has the curve (as it extends much further northward, the platforms being offset from one another). Local side had gap fillers for quarter-point doors (broad enough to cover either end or quarter-point doors), and the express side had gap fillers only for the center doors (I guess they figured that the gap at the quarter-point doors wasn't large enough to require them).
-- Ed Sachs
wayne
"Mind the Gap"
Mind the gap
The *trian* must be handicapped accessible, but this does not mean that the *whole-train* must be handicapped accessible, though for practical purposes it certainly ought to be. It will not do to have cars 1 2 and 3 accessible at 14th street and cars 8 9 and 10 accessible at Brooklyn Bridge.
Elias
Only the most recently rebuilt stations have good wheelchair access, like 34th Street/7th Avenue and Union Square-BMT. They are raising the platform for a car length or two at West 4th for the coming ADA compliance. I just hope that the platforms are good at the same positions at other stations on 6th or 8th Avenues. I have my doubts about Herald Square, because it was done quite a while ago.
Corona Yard, in Corona, NY, serves as the storage and repair facility for the 7 line. It holds the last of the Redbirds, but it also services the R62A subway car.
207th Street Shop and Yard host, if Iam not mistaken, cars from the IRT, IND and BMT. Unlike subway stations, train yards are not limited to one size of subway car.
Train shops clean and repair cars, keep track of spare parts, disassemble and reassemble motors, and do other things.
So there is Concourse Yard and Shop, Jamaica Yard (no shop there, I think), Pitkin Yard, East New York Yard...
Coney Island Yard is the largest. It holds the Transit Museum Fleet and ithas the best repair and rebuilding ability of any shop.
Jamaica Shop (in Jamaica Yard) is the largest maintenance Shop in the NYCT.
Or click on this link and enjoy.
As for Redbirds, there have not been any in production since 1963 (40 years ago.) and they will be an extinct species except for work trains and once a year fan trips.
Were any R38s ever renumbered? If so, that could also explain why the numberplates look different.
David
http://security.symantec.com/sscv6/default.asp?langid=ie&venid=sym
I have been getting upto 30 of these so called Microsoft patches and Nortons is going nuts.
No idea how long that train was in service and when the graffiti artists did their "work."
Let's not go overboard now.
When I saw the train, it REMINDED me of the 1970s...or maybe it should remind me of the time when the graffiti first started to appear on trains.
If anything, I don't see how East New York would have sent that train out with its three mates, unless the graffiti was applied while the train was in revenue service, which I doubt.
Not when at a terminal. It's also pretty hard to get in yards these days.
If it was done in the yard, why was this train sent into service?
til next time
Robert
Thanks, Robert, for the explanation.
Robert
1- Run an anti-virus program and keep it current by getting updates as often as possible, even to the point of any time you are on-line.
2- Do not open e-mail containing foreign languages especially if you do not know someone using that language.
3- Do not open e-mails promising riches, wealth, free stuff. Many are links to the virus and you should know that anything is too good to be true is that, TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.
4- Do not open attachments- even from those who know unless you check with them to verify they sent the attachment. If you decide you need the attachment save it to a folder on your PC and then scan the folder.
5- If your anti-virus program says an e-mail is infected delete the message.
6- Many viruses are sent via e-mails apparently from someone you know since they copied the address book from the infected PC..
7- Do not use Internet Explorer and do not use Outlook Express or Outlook (that is a problem). Use other browsers or e-mail programs. Due to security weakness Microsoft browsers and e-mail programs are swiss cheese, and your computer will be that too when the viral mice gets to it.
8- Be sure to scan incoming and outgoing e-mail. If you are infected, by scanning outgoing e-mail you can avoid spreading your infection to another person.
9- Links: right click and see where the link would take you. rather than clicking the link. Many links say they wilt take you to xyz.com but will really take you to the virus.
10--Filenames: do not hide extensions. Show all extensions. viruses take advantage of this:
Example-We have a filename xyz.jpg. this looks innocent. but the filename is really xyz.jpg.exe and would run the virus if there were one.
11- Be skeptical. Check out www.symantec.com, www.urbanlegends.com and other sites. DO not believe every story..
12- Run a firewall on your PC such as: Zone Alarm and keep it updated.
Hope this helps.
My e-mail address has NEVER been posted here, andyet yesterday my Norton AV was going nuts deleting e-mail as it came in...at least half a dozenposts even late last night. Fortunately, I have the Live Update working, so it checked for new updates every time I'm online. And the system scan came out clean last night too.
And my e-mail is disguised at Usenet, so it isn't coming from there. It is most likely coming from someone who has my real address, and their computer is infected whether they know it or not.
Forgive me ... this is an UNEDITED submission I just finished for the wiglets upstairs after YET another 26 hour day, needs to be proofread and edited before it's released "officially" but figgered I'd share with all *WHY* I'm so pythed off about the state of my OWN sanity "respite" here "tonight" ... what y'all got is "SWEN" ... *YAWN* ... no offense intended ... read on and chuckle BEFORE our management here "cleans up my words" ... what gets FORMALLY released won't look like this at all. :)
=========================================================
Are YOU a spammer?
by Kevin McAleavey, BOClean laboratory team leader
It might come as a surprise to many when they are contacted by their
Internet Service Provider only to be told that complaints have been
received of email abuse, and it turns out to be coming from THEIR
computer, and therefore their access has been cancelled. We don't mean
folks that have been infected with one of those everyday, commonplace
Microsoft(R)(tm)(branding used without authorization) worm viruses,
we mean actual SPAM being sent from YOUR IP address. It's been
happening a LOT lately, and just got worse as the result of a new
higher-level nasty out there than has previously the case.
While the media is now spinning "SWEN" as the biggest thing since
SOBIG, the reality is "SWEN" is just another variant of GIBE, written
by the notorious "BEGBIE" of the Czech Republic with the usual modus
operendi of "From MICROSOFT - Install this patch NOW" which of course
begets another "ho-hum" in the continuing Microsoft daily
"plague'o'creepy crawlers" from us here. Begbie *always* signs his
work, though it's encrypted - he likes to take some "kernel memory"
space to spraypaint his name in there, but not visible in the FILE or
in ordinary "process memory." He's *so* predictable. Same for so many
others. That's why our "ho hum" count of variants so far exceed our
"mother trojans" in our lists.
"SWEN" is in reality "GIBE the latest" and it amuses us to no end how
it's "NEW" ... nope. Maybe to the antivirus industry, but not to us.
BOClean 4.11 identifies it as the BEGBIE trojan, but in our most
recent database update, we added "SWEN" to that designation for
clarity. We've had to rename OTHER "Begbies" in our listings of the
past to match names obfuscated by the antivirus companies who have
ADMITTED in the past their desire to rename nasties from the actual
names given by their authors after "discovering" them days, weeks or
months AFTER "zero day." Sorry, our software is examined by network
administrators and industrial customers who TRACK nasties and they
EXPECT the "known name" of nasties to be used, and we'd better be
there on "zero day" or we've got hell to pay. See here:
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/15662.html
By comparison, these "daily worms", even those such as SOBIG which
were suspected of being the first wave in an assault of spammer
takeovers of machines according to the pundits, are not news at all
anymore. At worst, your ISP will cut you off and tell you "update your
antivirus and clean your machine, these things happen." They DO
understand that. And while these rapidly-spreading infections of your
Outlook Express (and curiously FEW other email/newsreader programs)
get plenty of attention, not so for far more insidious nasties that
are unmentioned and undetected in the meanwhile.
And with YOUR finger on the trigger, caught "red-handed" by your IP
address appearing on the abuse complaints that your ISP *must* solve
or your ISP gets "blackholed" for spamming, YOUR provider has no other
choice than to terminate your account and wish you well as you find
ANOTHER place to connect to the internet. LEGITIMATE ISP's take these
complaints MIGHTY seriously, and point to their "terms of service"
that you may or may not have realized you violated for sending "SPAM"
from your computer. If you think getting in trouble for MP3 files is a
"big deal," you don't want to know what they do to "spammers."
Ever get an email with absolute gibberish and a broken link? These
are the spammers that I'm talking about testing out their "new
servers" hijacked from innocent folks who happen to have the next best
thing to a spam-friendly ISP with "T-1 service" and far cheaper ...
they use BROADBAND! Subscribers who have almost the bandwidth of a T-1
available without the bill. Taking over YOUR machine is FREE for them
IF they can get a spam "remailer" onto YOUR computer. Much cheaper
than a T-1 bill. YOU'RE paying for THEIR bandwidth. Spamming trojans
have been around for a while now. BOClean has handled such "treats"
as "SPAMJACK," "SPAMPROXY," "DENSMAIL," "INFECTEDMAIL" and others for
quite some time.
On Friday, we received a brand new one called "MASSMAIL" which was
included in BOClean immediately upon its discovery. This one was
discovered by the folks at spywareinfo.com as have a few other nasties
lately. MASSMAIL is a complete spam engine with its own post office
inside YOUR machine. Its original source remains unknown, but it DOES
contact a master at 66.111.48.41 to obtain a list of people to spam
(the IP belongs to "United Colocation Group" of San Francisco, a
reportedly "spam-friendly" provider), whereupon it collects addresses
and the spam to be sent out and uses YOUR machine to do it. Spamhauses
are ILLEGAL in California. "Oh, the IRONY." Heh.
What tipped off the original victim was that they were receiving
strange warnings from the bad email addresses in the spam list, which
clearly indicates that this particular spam engine is "amateur hour."
However, it ran for quite some time right past firewalls, antiviruses
and other security software. Upon receipt of the files belonging to
it, BOClean detected this as a variant which was named by its author
as "MASSMAIL." The original reporting "victim" got an early warning
PRIOR to their ISP coming after them, primarily because their Norton
antivirus popped up windows indicating that it was scanning outgoing
email for viruses although the victim hadn't SENT any email at the
time. ALERT computer user there. Norton did NOT detect the trojan
however. Read about it here:
http://forums.spywareinfo.com/index.php?showtopic=11708
MASSMAIL is comprised of a number of pre-written "tools" which were
flung together. It also used a LEGITIMATE ActiveX control called
ANSMTP.DLL which is used as a legitimate mail server. The executable
itself consisted of a number of prewritten libraries including a TCP
host which connected to, and listened for the 66.111.48.41 respondent
with email to send. The number of unique behaviors to this particular
backdoor Spamhaus provided us with 14 heuristic points to spot any
similar "tools" in the future. It was genuine "script kiddies turned
pro" cut and paste. And now that the offending IP has been identified,
variants will obviously need to follow which will not match antivirus
"file signatures."
BOClean detects and defeats this little nasty and any of its future
progeny. Worms spreading through Outlook Express and those who make
the mistake of clicking on an attachment from someone they might know
which contains a file of any kind which wasn't pre-arranged are old
hat. Nowadays, you need to watch out for spammers who are tired of
being shut down by their ISP's or having to pay for bandwidth to send
you those "miracle pill," "diet," "refinance" treats who have now
gotten into the "hey! They have broadband, let's take over their
computer and use THAT" types. A bad situation is mutating into
something far worse, completely out of the spotlight of the media. But
hey, what ABOUT that "SWEN?" BOClean's made him "well hung" too. :)
SPAMMER of the day: ROSARIO DIETER SCHWARTZ! (ongoing daily joke here)
Safe computing? Heh. Get BOClean. We do that. :)
People seem to be trying to kill of Mircosoft by hurting Microsoft users. I still use Netscape (also free) and am not having these problems.
It ain't ready for prime time yet, but keep an eye out on "Firebird" and "Thunderbird" Mozilla ... it's pretty damned screwed up NOW ... but the PROMISE it shows for "stuff this up your stovepipe, Billy" and it's got me working on a brand new official "NSClean 7" to deal with its changes ... but even AS a "broken let's guinea pig this" toy, it shows SO much promise that I expect that by Kissmoose, a LOT of people (who aren't shafted with MSN) will be piping OFF the ship'o'gates (without a CAR) and USING the "Firebird" and "Thunderbird" utilities. Opera sux too, even at its BASKETCASE state in early development, Firebird's REAL browsing ... and when everything actually WORKS, it'll be the teats ...
Mozilla bit the bag ... what's LEFT of the old Mozilla team (of which I was a miniscule part of) is REALLY onto something ... but it ain't ready for prime time YET ... but like an arnine inching towards the crest of the MannyB kinda short on motors, keep an EAR out for "Firebird" ... the kids are getting MIGHTY close to code that works! :)
BTW, I'm using XP Professional...:-X
Mozilla 1.x and Netscape 6/7 weren't it.
and yet, a station with a VERY SHARP curve, like City Hall, never recieved (sic) them
With the entrances at the ends of the cars, they were not necessary. Only with the modern three-door setup did they become necessary.
If that is true, why were gap fillers being installed at 14th Street in 1914?
Tom
Gap fillers were installed at a few points on the sharp curve of the downtown
platform in 1914. Also known as moving platforms, they slide out to fill the space
at the points where doors open, and made it possible to open all the doors. More
were added in 1916, and also on the South Ferry outer loop. When the modern
design of subway car came into service, with doors located at different points, the
gap fillers were relocated, probably in 1955 for the local side and 1962 for the
express side.
The lead car was a Heritage class dinnette, followed by two Heritage class coaches. The third car was closed off and it really didn't matter because there were only 25 or so passengers on the train. We made five stops en-route and were about a half hour late arriving due to heavy freight traffic. This stretch of former MoPac right of way is one of the heaviest travelled freight lines in the country.
This train runs to KC and then returns to St. Louis, bedding down for the evening. The dinette attendent was an interesting fellow who is a native Bostonian although he's lived in Chicago the last 12 years. Very knowledgable about Amtrak and three of us talked extensively about the system, management, etc. Really nice guy. My friend and I spent much of the trip sitting at a dinette table because there was more leg room and we enjoyed talking with the attendent.
The station renovation was magnificient. Dave Cole, you would have been drooling! Read all about it at www.unionstation.org. They put a science center in there; an upscale steak and seafood restaurant; a "Harvey House Food Court;" shops; etc.
On the second floor of the station they had a museum exhibit of the history of the station, its deterioration, and renovation. The station is connected via a covered aerial walkway with people movers (horizontal escalators, sort of like Caesers Palace in Las Vegas) connecting the station with upscale hotels. The pictures of the station in the 1930's and 1940's showed streetcar trackage surrounding the station. I know KC had an extensive streetcar system and I once looked through a book about it last December at a train show. May have to pick up a copy this year.
After arriving we wandered around and my friend bought an ice cream cone while I picked up a box of candy for my wife. Because we were a half-hour late arriving we only had an hour to sightsee before an on-time return departure. We were delayed a half hour enroute coming back to St. Louis on the "St. Louis Mule" because right after we passed Jefferson City heading westbound, the UP took a mainline track out of service for three hours to replace a broken rail. We saw freights stacked up for miles on the ride back east.
Speaking of freights, these were HEAVY! A pair of AC4400's or SD70MAC's on the point and one or two of the same as a pusher on the rear. Saw several unit coal trains, all full, and many mixed freights (mixed in terms of freight cars, not mixed freight-passenger). A few trains had a third unit on the point.
Same dinette attendent coming back east. The train was a little more crowded with about 40 passengers. My friend and I bought business class tickets which entitled us to reserved seating ahead of the dinette section (same type seats as in the coach cars except with foot rests); free newspapers, free soft drinks and juice, and a $4.50 voucher (each way)for food which I gave to my friend. We spent the return trip again chatting with this fellow.
The route between St. Louis and Jefferson City (the state capitol) parallels the Missouri River. Absolutely beautiful on the return trip with the setting sun; very peaceful watching the towboats with barges heading west and east. Hard to believe Lewis and Clark paddled their way up this very river!
All in all, we spent about 11 hours on the train and one hour at KC, for a very enjoyable day.
Show me! Mizzouri, a state with two major cities, each with its own Federal Reserve Bank (and there are only a handful in the country) that no one pays attention to anymore.
Datawise, no region has diminished more than St. Louis. This was the 4th largest city in the U.S. in 1900 (when cities were the equivalent of Metro Areas today), but it is way down the list of Metro areas in population. For the railfan, that means lots of infrastructure from OUR heyday and few people to share it with. And perhaps a comeback, someday.
Nice to know they fixed up their rail station in KC.
By announcing the shutdown, WMATA forced the hand of the Government and private employers to actually THINK of the safety and welfare of their workers. I'm sure if the hurricane was headed to NYC or Philly, I think SEPTA or MTA would have given the same consideration to that idea for the general safety of the public.
BTW: the disaters occurred 1/2 hour apart. First was the Air Florida plane hitting a gridlocked 14th st Bridge, then a 1/2 hour later, was the Metrorail derailment outside of the Smithsonian Station.
Michael
Washington, DC
An R-127/134 single.
til next time
David
-William A. Padron
[The R-10 NYC Pyramid Authority]
I know how much you love them, know how much they were a whole different reality from yours if you had "Local 100 checkoff" and santed to apolgize for plasheming. :)
I actually know FOUR former motorpeople who worked them regularly who thought they were slicker than whale sheet in an iceflow. Just so's ya know. Only time I ever got thrown onto R-10s (other than "surprise!!!" in motor schoolcar) was as a conductor ... you shoulda SEEN my arse bending down and FRENCH-kissing that yellow paint at the terminal after that "ride from hell". :)
In all my years as a transit buff, I have encountered my own share conductors and T/O's who actually did have a very intense dislike in working the R-10's, while there were some transit employees I have met who actually really liked working on the cars. I personally know of one T/O who had once told me from past experience he would rather operate a real train consist of R-10's gladly then dealing with those R-68's, which some railfans have nicknamed currently as the "Hippos".
But as I have may have said before, I have no real problems or qualms with any disagreeable or negative R-10 comments from anyone seen on this Subtalk board or from anywhere else. Besides, I can easily read and/or listen to any comments made on the cars themselves with a very open mind and acceptance.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
wayne
til next time
wayne
On the return trip from Manhattan, when pulling into Jamaica, the Airtrain terminal station was all lit up. Would make a great shot for all of you guys with digital cameras.
Bill "Newkirk"
...to submit for NYC Subway Calendar 2005??
Airtrain is not considered NYC Subway by me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are there any OTHER cars with the robin's egg blue windowsills on 7?
Sure was sweet to walk through 9577 a month ago... ::sigh::
David
Yes that's definately it.
Manny B transit riders are in for happier times in 2004.
Ahead of schedule in some ways, though behind in others. I too look forward to the job getting done.
When the R-160 arrives, however, ....
They could conceivably cut back F service to CI (or equivalent) enough to allow express and local service. That is, instead of 14 trains to CI, 8 to CI and 8 to Church Ave. That wouldn't require extra equipment.
It might not even piss off too many people. The people on the outer segment would get quicker rides in return for slightly longer average waits (225 seconds instead of 129 if trains run evenly spaced). The people on the inner segment would have a chance for a seat.
That's what I suggested, speaking as one on the inner segment who would by bypassed. But I'd want the G in addition to the 8 Fs. And I'd want to keep the G during non-rush hours, in addition to all the Fs.
Thank you, Larry. And thank you to your colleagues. You know that when I'm in town next, I'll be riding.
Yes, single track from Nostrand to Hoyt, on the Queens-bound side.
GO FOR IT! (or as they said in a classic commercial, "TRY it, you'll LIKE it") ... and scwoo the naysayers ... If you're into kinky artworks, you've also GOTTA to the northboudn platform at 14th and 8th avenue on the A, C, E, or L train on the IND 8th Avenue level ... alligator popping out of a manhole, biting someone on the butt ... there's SO many treats, but the advice so far has been pretty good. If you REALLY wanna say to folks when you come back upstate with "Cows with guns" and "kitty got an uzi" country, you've GOTTA get out to Stillwell on the W (only thing running there now, apologies for the Dubya, you know what we think of his beechass upstate) but you've GOTTA see Coney Island while you're down there.
And DA Bronx on any IRT line is also an amusement ... so much to see, it takes 36 hours never getting off the train to really take it all in. But you WANNA get off the train too, so plan accordingly. :)
By the way: "Sightseeing" is the word you meant.
If they deny permission, go anyway.
<6> Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham Bay Park(although you might want to take the 4 or 5 to E 125th Street[MLK Jr Blvd] to get full express service and speed up your trip)
1/9 skip stop in Manhattan and the Bronx
Where would i get the stuff?
what would be the frame?
How would the rollers stay up where do i put the bat with nobs on it?
To see the shop, it's on the F line at Avenue X.
http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/major.html
but for your purposes, I'd recommend Sansone's book, which is on the page. It's mostly a description of the MTA fleet past and present with line drawings, but there are some photos included.
Greller's books are good too but they tend to be expensive and you have to hunt them down. Fischler's are good, as well, but there are a couple of errors in his latest.
www.forgotten-ny.com
CG
Parts of Westbury can be downright nasty. QTrain made Sea Cliff sound like it was a couple notches below Sodom and Gomorrah, I can't imagine what he'll be saying about Westbury.
Bill "Newkirk"
* ryan
Subways still have railfan windows, even the R142/3s.
Its a little blur but you can still see out front so I don't know what people are complaining about.
SEPTA M4s and N5s are the best. N5s are like riding a bus.......only much faster and quicker too.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
Philly is looking to be the holdout for the RFW, and once again it would seem that there are advantages to having a TA that does the complete oppossite of what every other TA in the country is doing! While other TA's eliminate RFWs and cut off shop access to railfans, SEPTA has a very open policy (based on the experience of from my two shop tours in the past two months), and has actually bought New-Tech equipment with railfan windows! While other TAs seek to eliminate photography on their property, I've had operators ask me of I can get pictures of them with their trains, and even had a shop foreman that actually asked if I wanted to take photos of 2320.
So come on down to Philly, we may have a small, seemingly backward system, but every one of our Subway and LRV trains has some sort of RFW, and even the worst, arguably the BSS, still easily beats the Drunken RFW of NYC!
Now, will the Silverliner V have an RFW? I'm not really certain, the diagrams SEPTA released show an almost M-4 - like design, with a forward facing seat at the front window next to a small cab for the E/R. But this could be like the M7s where the RFW seats can be closed off when that car is being used for the front car.
Are those Silverliner V diagrams online by any chance? I never seen them.
Dood, the Subway-Surface Kawasakis are NOT BUSES! Anything that has a trolley pole and runs on rails is not a stinkin bus.
Of course we agree about the N-5. Anything that has a third rail shoe and runs on rails isn't a bus.
Right now the 34 is MY line, and the 13 ain't all that far behind. I'm just saying that if you're gonna call a rail vehicle a bus, at least mistake a Subway Surface car rather than a grade separated one-time interurban line which almost bends the definition between subway and LRT!
Of course a bus is just the unholy offspring of a bad streetcar and a car, and a streetcar should never be mistaken for a bus that runs on rails, streetcars were there LONG before NCL showed up and rained on everyone parade.
Run LRVs on the 21 and 42! Bring back the 23 and 56! Fight the busses, it's time to lay down tracks! Vive la resistance! The Provisional Wing of the NMRO is ready for action! :)
I've also seen some R46s and R68s where you can sort of see through the front window, but it's hard. The R142s and R143s are slightly blurry. That makes it difficult to look out of the front while in tunnels, but above ground you can see a lot better.
Also, I've noticed a disturbing trend lately, where the drivers of Flushing-bound R62As are taping cardboard over the little windows in their doors, or hanging their fanny packs over the windows.
If you're not doing anything this weekend, GET OUT THERE WITH YOUR CAMERAS!!!
Anyone in my situation as well?
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
For some wierd reason, the boards are all painted different colors-blue, yellow, and red, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Went to Oren's Transit Page today, and it said that the domain has expired. Does anyone know what's going on?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
This feature was deactived as the union refuse to take the train out in passenger service. None of the cars had this feature turned on by the time the M-1s were in service. At some point the button and light were removed and plated over. Budd later stopped punching out the holes for the button and light.
Just think, the M-1s could have stayed warmer or colder since not all the doors needed to be open (of course in off-peak hours).
I guess the Union was protecting its member in the event some dumb passenger was on the wrong side in the car and press the button, only to drop on to the tracks. Of course the passengers in San Diego must be better educated to open the doors on the correct side as the light would blink saying something like "This side, dummy".
London's new Jubilee Line trains use this feature. I rode a couple; it's cool. But is it really more effective than opening all the doors? It could help reduce cooling or heating energy and cost required, since the doors stay closed a larger percentage of the time. How many pounds sterling per trip has UndergrounD saved this way, compared to the Metropolitan Line, the Circle Line or the Victoria Line?
What I don't understand is that since you need a minimum number of conductors to make sure tickets are collected, especially on heavier used trains, how would door buttons reduce crew complements? Would LIRR be willing to risk having a higher number of people think they can ride free and get away with it? LIRR is not (officially at least) on a POP system.
Never underestimate the potential for silliness and/or job protectionism in a labor contract. Was it the Board of Ed or the TA that for years had in the contract that only an electrician could change a light bulb? This shouldn't be construed as an anti-union comment -- both sides sign the contract.
CG
Your points are well-taken. Indeed, both sides signed.
So you know more than the original poster in this thread when he seemed like he did research for the post?
["More likely people didn't know what they were supposed to do, and the feature didn't save a lot of conductor effort or reduce the required crew complement."]
This feature was never used in revenue service, so we'll never know how people would react or it saved money or not. And unless I'm mistaken I don't think the heat or A/C on the M-1's run on a thermostat so the cost would be exactly the same if the heat or air escapes or not.
More ignorance by Ron who called me ignorant a while ago when I stated that most religions consider homosexuality a sin.
OK. It does beg the question, though, of what advantage the LIRR thought it would get with this feature. Of course, maybe it was Budd who promoted the feature more.
I don't know how London UndergrounD feels about it, but it is in service, and passengers had no trouble using it when I rode.
"More ignorance by Ron who called me ignorant a while ago when I stated that most religions consider homosexuality a sin."
No, more ignorance by Jeffrey Rosen about my views on homophobia, and denial by Jeffrey Rosen about his own homophobia. Maybe it's good that you've retired from the Police epartment. NYPD is slowly shedding prejudiced officers and replacing them with professionals.
I wonder if the Jubilee Line rolling stock in London requires a manual unlocking, or does an onboard computer do it?
Do you also remember the side destination sign glass on the interior and exterior with the wire harness for the roll sign chassis dangling down ? Sometime afterwards, the exterior was plated over with stainless steel and the interior was plated over with a matching enamel plate too.
How about another forgotten feature ! The engineer cabs had a folding bench seat that would fold up to allow the cab door to close inward and lock, preventing tampering with the controller and panel. There was two button switchs on top that when the cab door was closed inward and locked, a fluorescent light (still there) would light the area. You may see the door striker on the cab interior, but they are not on the M-3's. This was for extra seating for passengers. Something much like the unrebuilt BMT Standards, whose surplus cab doors were closed inward and a bench seat provided two extra seats.
And there was the water cooler by the lavatory with cup dispenser. The M-1's have been modified so many times over the years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably got rid of that because of littering, or maybe because people tried to flush thecups down the toilet.
Amtrak still has drinking water and cup dispensers on its trains. A most welcome feature.
Recently I was on a two-year-old Pacific Surfliner, and went to get a drink of water and it came out rusty.
Has that happened in London? You need sensors that open doors automatically upon obstruction.
Shortly after that the buttons were removed, and the spot plated over.
The LU buttons have a lighted strip surrounding them so you can tell when they have been enabled. Pushing on a door button that is not lit does nothing.
The feature is only used in the winter. In summer, all doors open for a bit of fresh air!
John
Also, when MNR gets their share of CometV's, what paint scheme will they have?
If they get a share of Comet V's. I don't recall them ordering any. To my knowledge, only NJT was getting the V's. Maybe Jersey Mike has an idea. He would know about this more than I would.
Jimmy
If they get a share of Comet V's. I don't recall them ordering any. To my knowledge, only NJT was getting the V's
According to this page on NJT’s web site, Metro-North is actually ordering 65 Comet Vs for West-of-Hudson service, 20 of them to be cab cars. Since NJT operates trains to/from PJ in their own logos anyway, there would be no delay in using Comet Vs on that route.
I know there isn't a lot of traffic on that line. But is it low enough for a tree to grow in the trackbed between trains?
As a result, the Manhattan/Brooklyn segment seems to be borrowing rolling stock from other lines; I was riding R62 1595 earlier. Seeing that big (2) rollsign up front was a bit surprising! If you're railfanning with cameras this weekend, keep an eye out for this or similar trains.
I just deleted a video off my camera, I'm headed out there now.
Is this still going to happen? Does anyone have any early insight into what if any trains will be added, dropped, or changed?
Back on-topic, I have been lobbying for Amtrak to add a later BOS-NYP Acela Express. The last one weekdays is currently 5:15; I would like to see one 6:00 or later.
Now now, we have to keep the basic interface schema intact and accurate. Grammatical rules are not oppressive nor vindictive; they just are. It's how us critters keep things running smoothly within the textual environment. So please don't scold Mr. Glickman.
Very conservative management--wanted simple and sturdy. They also resisted inside frame trucks and stainless steel.
Article in Inkie
The blockage used to last up to at least on hour. That was before all the Yuppies moved in.
Some of the engine crew were arrested by local police. I'm sure RDG had an agreement with local authorities to let the engine crew go "free".
Jim K.
Formally of Phila.
If he didn't clear its control length, what's the point?
The decision he made was moronic.
How long is this train. Out here trains are a mile + long, with no conductor in the back to announce when the gates have cleared. How is he going to know that the gate didn't clear.
Should not the gates clear once the train stops moving?
I have seen locomotives come right up to the road, and then stop in the station, and in a moment the gates will go up. When he releases the brakes and rolls a little bit, the gates come down again.
Perhaps the problem was NOT in the engine, but rather in the gate system?
Elias
But he was OUT OF SERVICE and could not do any work, driving a train or otherwise.
Elias
You know, there's following the rules, and then there's following the rules. FRA fines or not, being stupid is being stupid. I'm hearing some exaggeration about what this really means. If an ambulance came by siren going, with a heart attack victim aboard, would he have refused?
My dad once supervised somebody like that. She was an average worker who stuck very closely to "closing times."
Dad was expecting a call from me, and I called at 5:02PM. The lady was there, but did not answer the phone. When he found out later that week, he asked "Why?" She said "I get off work at 5PM."
"OK," he said. "I accept that." But then he told her that her start time was exactly 8AM. Lunch was exactly 1 hour, not one minute more. Coffee breaks were exactly 10 minutes. If she exceeded those times, or came in late by 1 minute (8:01 AM), my dad promised to document it and warn her. Do it again, and her termination notice would be on its way to human resources.
She got the drift.
The engineer is a MORON.
til next time
Robert
Robert
til next time
Robert
You don't know that for sure. Anything can still happen. Those 58 ML's sitting up there in da Bronx may be needed in service for some reason.
Are you suggesting that the ML's will see revenue service again? Back home on the West Side, I hope -- whether on the 2 or on the 3 I don't really care.
# 0000 I can post a number too. I am cool now!
-Stef
Well, they aren't there anymore. An 11-car train of something else is.
There are twelve World's Fair cars on that track; I think it's five pairs with a single at either end. There was also a 3-car set moving about the yard, and a pair coupled to a 62A single at the east end of the yard. At least one set was on the road this morning, in local service: 9612-9613-9585-9584-9587-9586-9583-9582-9316-9616-9617.
It will be...when it is.
David
I just wish everybody would rest in reaction to his posts. Some posters, like Jersey Mike, have enough interesting to say that it's worth reading their posts even if there is some annoying stuff mixed in. Others just aren't worth ever reading or responding to, because the percentage of good stuff is so low.
And with the good paint scheme:
Enjoy!
For the F40 Phaze IV looked best.
For the P40/42 Phaze V looks the best.
(reference to the AEM7's Swedish anscestry and the fact that the AmFleets were the first cars on the Corridor to be totally dependent on hotel power, no batteries, no generators, no steam heat.)
Just a thought: Picture a GG1 with a train of Amfleets. 40 car trains perhaps at 90 miles per hour?
Wait, so you're saying the GG1's were THAT POWERFUL? THAT MUCH MORE POWERFUL than even the AEM7's? Wow.
AEM7
Lisa is on the Simpsons. One Simpsons episode deals with a monorail. In fact, the word monorail is mentioned many times in the episode, and is even part of a song. Furthermore, there was another episode that involved a miniture train which Rev. Lovejoy operated in a zoo. And the good Reverand also had a model trainset. And there was even an episode where the Simpsons went on a train ride. So, as you can see, the Simpsons are ON TOPIC.
We've earned some leeway by posting useful informational content, you haven't. I've answered your questions on many occasions, I don't think you've ever answered anyones.
-------
Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!
"Khlav Khalash, anyone?"
Jimmy :)
Jimmy ;)
I'll take the crab juice!
I apologize for that waste of webspace.
Nice to see some fellow "Simpsons" fans on SubTalk.
That bathroom has been gone for just over two years now. :-(
P.S It is my belief that the new trains will not last so long as past trains did. Time will prove me right or wrong.
But plenty of simple, elegant electronic logic.
Hey, no Y2K problem.
Carbon steel has its merits: it's hard, tough, bears weight well. But it needs lots of rust protection.
That sounds like a declarative statement, not an opinion. Please tell us the name of the NYCT official who provided this information, or at least the newspaper where the date was mentioned.
David
David
Story here
and URL http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/119477p-107624c.html
You can believe whatever you want, belief doesn't make something true.
Time doesn't prove anything, it never has, and it never will.
Another Nobel Prize winning lecture from Professor Pig.
:0)
til next time
The Mets need to back up the truck.
How do you all know?
Crying for the "death" of a mass-produced machine is not.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/119477p-107624c.html
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
David
David
When it happens, it happens.
But it isn't quite what you suggested. Manhattan-bound V trains still stop at 53rd in the morning rush. There is also no clear indication of whether Queens bound trains still skip the station or not.
Thank you, sir.
They used to, but now they don't. This one is a rare exception.
If this sign is not an error, there will be chaos and a lot of unhappy people come Monday morning.
"If people are too stupid to read the GO notices and ride accordingly, screw them"
I invite you to come to my station (Roosevelt Ave./Jackson Heights) during the AM rush to see if you can find your way to one of these signs through the crowds. Just reaching the platform can be a significant accomplishment.
There is no good reason to implement a major service change like this on a Monday morning with no prior notice to the passengers.
With no prior notice, it will come as a nice (??) surprise.
I can envision it. Roosevelt Avenue on Monday Morning, the conductor of a Manhattan-bound E train will say, "This is a Manhattan-bound E train, the next stop is Queens Plaza... stand clear of the closing doors please.... oh and by the way, we're not stopping at Lexington..."
I have to get to that crowded platform to take the F train to Jay Street. Maybe I should reroute myself to the 7 train to Bryant Park instead tomorrow???
Manhattan-bound E passengers have other options. Remember, not everyone on the E is getting off at Lex. Between the alternative options (transfer to the V, transfer to the R, transfer to the 7, stay on to 5th and backtrack), those who are transferring will all fit.
Nobody will use your fourth option if they're transferring to the 6.
And I strongly disagree that they will fit. Even if, in principle, there is enough unused capacity at the back of the V Train, there will still be tremendous crowding problems because...
- Construction at Queens Blvd. and Jackson Heights will discourage the movement of large numbers of passengers along the platform.
- The long wait to access the escalator at the western end of the 53/Lex platform further encourages passengers to crowd into the front of the trains.
Furthermore, there is virtually no additional capacity on the R and the 7 at these hours.
Fortunately, this argument appears to be moot. It looks like the MTA removed the service advisory.
I've always thought it would make more sense to have the V run via 63. That way F expresses won't have to slow down much to switch onto the 63rd St tunnel tracks and any E's running close behind wouldn't have to slow down either. Since the V is already local and the 63 track merge is right below the 36 St Station, morning rush travelers won't have to experience the slowdown the F goes through. Also it would give the V its own specific stations and balance out ridership a bit more between the F and V...at least I'm assuming.
hmm! I don't have an exact facts on why that was not on the new F/V train service plan at the beginning, perhaps I guess maybe TA though of having one and the only local train on 63rd won't speed up the ride for 63rd route riders. OR simply this has to do saving rider times.
It makes no sense at all. It worsens the maldistribution of passengers, instead of improving it, as the current plan has succeeded in doing. The F and V serve demand better. The E is a bit more crowded, but having personally ridden the E many times, I can tell you that skipping the Lex/53 platform for safety was just as valid an idea in 1995 as it is in 2003. The 63rd Street Connector has very little to do with that.
This debate was worthwhile prior to the service opening. The issue has been settled.
Ideally the F, being the better service, should use the prime route (53 Street) delivering the most people to the most popular destinations, if only the stations at 51-53 and Lex had a bit more space. And I agree with Bowery Les's arguments about operational simplicity, which is always a desirable goal as it potentially allows shorter headways.
I didn't check if Dave Pirmann has put this story in the headlines section...
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--subwaycars0921sep21,0,6275530.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
Elvis Duran & the Z Morning Zoo on Z100
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/21/business/media/21movi.html
Or it could have been just one episode. I'm not sure...but I sure do remember seeing it at least once.
If I had to make a guess about the Bedrock subway, I'd say subwayu cars carved out of stone and the train moves when everyone on it starts walking.
Fred complained bitterly about having to take the subway. The whole episode reflected anti-transit attitudes among the writers, IIRC.
I imagine by now they would have been shown living in an area like Manorville.
: )
Mark
Mark
Or, one could let the writers off the hook and say that anti-transit attitudes go back to pre-historic times.
I'd forgotten about Fred's anti-transit comments.
Maybe the writers were making fun of anti-transit attitudes (or maybe not...)
IIRC you could even hear spur-cut bull and pinion gear sounds a la the R-1/9s.
But on a related note, I do remember a scence from a short that Tex Avery did for MGM in the late 1940s called "The First Texas Bad Man." It took place in Dallas in the year 1,000,000 BC and some say it was one inspiration for The Flintstones (the other inspiration being The Honeymooners). In this cartoon about a prehistoric outlaw, there's a scene of animal-skin-clad cave people heading into a stone subway entrance...almost fifty years before DART opened!
The cartoon was also narrated by Tex Ritter, the singing cowboy father of John Ritter.
Mark
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
David
Elias
:0)
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/21/nyregion/21TOMA.html
I want to know if people have their favorite announcement cues...
my top three are:
1) "This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue Bound "M" Train."
2) "This is a Bronx (or Brooklyn)-Bound "2" Express Train."
3) "This is a MANHATTAN Bound FIVE EXPRESS Train."
I also like the older 5 Train Announcements. Too Bad that they were erased. I also like the "3" Train announcements that were made for a demo that once ran. I rode it and it was fine. Kudos to the Announcers of the "2" and "3", the old "5" and the "L" and "M" Train announcers. I don't like the new Lex Av announcements though. Too Harsh.
What are your fave speils?
By the way, at http://www.johnvillanueva.com/sites/r-142sounds.html , one can hear the "3" Train announcement (under "This is a Harlem bound 3 Train") This site is a godsend to someone who goes away to school in PA!
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
All time fave:
" THis is a Brooklyn College, Flatbush avenue bound, 5 express train. The next. Stop is. NEWkirk avenue"
www.forgotten-ny.com
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
Do we have to remember it?
www.forgottenmetfan.com
Ball game over! World Series over! Yankees win! THEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Yankees Win!
(If any Mets fans read this, well... maybe next year.)
It's still better than Harry Carey's "Cubs win! Cubs win! Cubs win!"
One thing about the olden days when Lindsay Nelson, Ralph Kiner and Bob Murphy did Mets games was that they called them down the middle. Murphy would finish off every win with a "happy recap," but that was about it.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots AVenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.
This is a Queens bound W local train.
This is an Astoria bound train.
(Z) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z train.
This is a Mahattan bound Z express train.
This is a Broad Street bound Z express train.
(Z) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z express train.
This is a Queens bound Z express train.
This is a Jamaic bound Z train.
Shuttles
42 Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Central bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
This is a Times Square bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
Ozone Park Shuttle
This is a Queens bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Ozone Park bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is a Brooklyn bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
Rockaway Park Shuttle
This is a Rockaway Park bound Rockaway Park Shuttle train.
This is a Broad Channel bound Rockaway Shuttle.
Grand Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Street bound Grand Street Shuttle train.
This is a West 4 Street bound Grand Street SHuttle train.
Franklin Avenue Shuttle
This is a Frankln Avenue bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
This is a Prospect Park bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
Staten Island Railroad
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Ball Park bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Saint George bound Staten Island Railroad train.
The NEC has a lot of bridges which could use repair. NJ Transit and SEPTA have commuter rail bridges which are "suboptimal," to be polite about it. Could this help them?
A train travelling at high speeds (like on the NEC) places much more stresses on bridges and other structures than a train travelling at low speeds. I'm no engineer, but if you think about it, it kind of makes sense. You have a train that is exerting a downwards force when it isn't moving -- but when it's moving at high speeds, that becomes a downwards force that's moving. So structures underneath the train is constantly being stressed and de-stressed. Two types of failures could concern bridge engineers -- a flash flood to topple the bridge, or a fracture that allows the bridge deck to break in half while a train is passing over it. The faster the train, the higher the changes in stresses and forces will occur when the train passes over the bridge -- and the result is you need a stronger bridge to withstand it.
I think.
It's been a long time since I'd done real physics...
AEM7
Actually, yes. Don't you see those tank cars that say 'next inspection due SEP-04'?
AEM7
That's pretty cool to me, because I cover that ground as part of my loop when I go for a long run. I half expect that one day after a big rainstorm, I'll see the corner of a railcar poking up from beneath the dirt.
CG
(1) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 1 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 1 local train.
(1) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 1 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 1 train.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots AVenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.
This is a Queens bound W local train.
This is an Astoria bound train.
(Z) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z train.
This is a Mahattan bound Z express train.
This is a Broad Street bound Z express train.
(Z) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z express train.
This is a Queens bound Z express train.
This is a Jamaic bound Z train.
Shuttles
42 Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Central bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
This is a Times Square bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
Ozone Park Shuttle
This is a Queens bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Ozone Park bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is a Brooklyn bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
Rockaway Park Shuttle
This is a Rockaway Park bound Rockaway Park Shuttle train.
This is a Broad Channel bound Rockaway Shuttle.
Grand Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Street bound Grand Street Shuttle train.
This is a West 4 Street bound Grand Street SHuttle train.
Franklin Avenue Shuttle
This is a Frankln Avenue bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
This is a Prospect Park bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
Staten Island Railroad
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Ball Park bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Saint George bound Staten Island Railroad train.
Upload those announcements already!
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad express train. Great Kills is the first stop.
This is a Great Kills bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a St. George bound Staten Island Railroad express train.
Robert
This is why the platform signs on the J/M/Z line in Manhattan don't simply say, "To Brooklyn," but have the terminals listed as well. It's to remove confusion as to whether the train, when it leaves Manhattan, is headed for Williamsburg or Downtown Brooklyn.
What about Essex St, Bowery, Canal St, Chambers St, Fulton St, Broad Street, and the entire 8th Avenue/Central Park West line? Aren't they all in Manhattan?
The only lines that truly fit the description above are the G, the M Shuttle, and the A (Lefferts-Euclid) Shuttle. But, shuttles aside, the G is the only true line that truly fits that description.
Also note that all these routes go between Brooklyn and Queens. I guess until someone builds a Queens-Bronx or a Brooklyn-SI route, that'll be the case for now.
The westbound L takes a brief soujourn into Queens directly from Brooklyn.
Possibly some others, as Manhattan has legal jurisdiction over part of the Brooklyn waterfront piers, so the water crossing would end just before the borough crossing.
How do real live C/R's announce their M trains in Manhattan?
I was bored in my house with nothing better to do with my time so I made this list of why the R44 cars are the worst subway cars in revenue service.
1. They self combusted without a reason: The ATO would catch on fure for no apparent reason. The only other subway cars which caught on fire randomly was the R16.
2. Theyre a maintenance nightmare for Pitken: The guys/gals would dread having to repair a R44.
3. Theyre currently the only subway cars which were in full revenue service 20 years after the last delivery: The St Louis cars had so many problems that all of them were in full service in 1992. 19 years after the last delivery was made.
til next time
David
#3 West End Jeff
If the R44's are such a headache to fix, then why is Pitkin Barn the #1 seniority barn in the system?
Maybe they were a pain in the derrière to repair before, but not now after GOH.
I don't know honestly. I don't work for Pitkin. If I can give a guess maybe it's because they don't blow up anymore.
Maybe they were a pain in the derriè²¥ to repair before, but not now after GOH.
Theyre still a pain. Just not as much of a pain as before 1992.
On what is this statement based?
David
By the way, what would those friends at Pitkin rather be working on than R-44s, and why aren't they somewhere else working on their preferred cars instead of being miserable at Pitkin?
David
IIRC the official retiree list has the R44 in line to be retired. And yes it's only tentative.
By the way, what would those friends at Pitkin rather be working on than R-44s, and why aren't they somewhere else working on their preferred cars instead of being miserable at Pitkin?
Theyre not miserable at Pitkin I don't know where you got that from but theyre more less happy at their current jobs (From what I know anyway. Besides, all jobs have their setbacks). They just hate working on the R44.
As to the "official" list, the only one I've seen in print doesn't list the R-44s, but things are indeed subject to change.
David
The official list changes about every 3 months. The last 2 had the R44 on it.
Good management with crummy equipment is better than crummy management with good equipment.
Or does anybody want to contradict my point?
Elias
Tried to look up your bio at Cooper Union's website, but you are listed neither as visiting/adjunct nor permanent faculty. Ditto for Queens College.
A Yahoo, AltaVista and HotBot search turned up nothing but one reference to a fantasy game character.
Granted, Cooper Union doesn't need to do much entice students - but it could always use a few more corporate contributions.
Besides, it introduces you to the academic community.
So what kind of math do you like to do?
Enjoyable work but the pay is not the best.
My day started promptly on Monday morning as I had to catch the Acela regional up north to Boston at 1030hrs. A fellow subtalker was expecting me and my friend Ed at MIT. You figured you'd have 3 hrs to kill before making the Amtrak Downeaster Train to Wells, so why not take advantage of it? The Amtrak ride was interesting being it was my first opportunity to ride on it, I sat back, relaxed, and enjoyed the ride. Ed and I could see glimpses of my home from the Hell Gate, Oak Point Yard, etc. It felt kind of strange passing through Branford and not stopping to see the Lady In Red. Nevertheless, we made it to Boston after hours of watching dvds on a laptop and some zzzzs. The Acela Regional consisted of an HHP Loco and several Amfleets.
After arriving at Boston Back Bay, Ed and I connected with an MBTA Orange Line train. The T still uses Tokens, and for $1 a ride, it's quite a bargain. I take note of an unusual practice on the part of the T: its the first subway system that I've notice a train opertaing with taillights forward rather than lit headlamps. Strange..... My friend and I stopped for lunch at Fanueil Hall in downtown Boston. He had chowda and I had a ceasar salad. Yum.
It was time to meet with the mighty weatherman, Todd Glickman, where I got the chance to ride the Blue, Green and Red Lines on the way over to MIT. No signs of the Type 8s on the Green Line, Type 7s rule. Blue line cars look to be in rough shape; looks they'll be candidates for replacement soon. Bombardier 01800s rule the Red Line, Boston's answer to the R110B. Modern technology at its best.
Finally I arrived at Kendall, and got to meet with Todd, we sat down and spoke for an hour, showing us a prized number plate from a dearly departed Redbird. When I see 8810, I will think of Transit and Weather together. Many thanks to Mr. Glickman for inviting us to his office. We were just getting into the swing of things when it was time to head to North Station. Todd, Ed, and I all went together to North Station as Todd to catch an MBTA commuter train home.
Got on the Downeaster at 6:15, which comprised of an F40 Cabbage, several Amfleets, and a Genesis Unit leading the helm. A smooth ride. Ed and I finally arrived at 8:20PM where, I was greeted by fellow SubTalker, JohnS and his wife Lucille. We were quickly whisked off to our cottage in Wells where we would stay for the next two nights. It was nice to stack up on our supplies (called food) for the overnight stay. Off to bed I went, in such a quet place!!!
Tuesday morning was the big day. Armed with an Olympus D340, I was ready to go to work at a place called the Seashore Trolley Museum. 7AM was the wake up call for Ed and I, to meet with Sparky as we'd be going to breakfast. The crew finally arrived at Seashore, to see all the action. The display track was set up with a PCC at the Front, with a Work Car behind it. As John went to park his car, I observed Almond Joy 618 in storage. At the present time, 618 had not been put on the rails. Operators were already set to go at Seashore for the morning runs to Talbott Park, with TARS 631 and Eastern Mass 4387 being used to entertain the guests. Seashore's mainline is comprised to a loop at each end of the mainline, one at the visitor's center, the other at Talbott Park. Doing the Loop-de-Loop is certainly useful for single ended cars, that can run continuously without backing up. It's almost like an HO Scale Trainset:)
631 and 4387 performed extremely well, during the day. 4387's brakes grab, 631 just needed gentle persuasion. I had mentioned to Sparky my interest in becoming a qualified operator at Seashore, he took me to task. I received an abridged training course in Ops. It was all good. I had great difficulty in handling 4387, because you only need to take little chunks of air to stop the car. I took too much air and made a hard stop. I thought 4387 was a monstrosity initially, but it too need gentle persuasion. Even subway Car 6688 was easier to handle! I took the time to get familiar with the line, the cars, and the shop as Sparky played host for the occasion. Lots of neat cars; Boston rules at Seashore. One could find different subway and trolley cars from the T: PCCs, Red, Orange, and Blue Line Cars. BRT 4547 and IRT 3352 were at rest in the barns. Connco Cars are the minority here, 1160 was in the process of being restored, while an Open Car getting much needed repairs. IND Car 800 is getting repainted, while sister Car 1440 sits alone outside of one of the barns. I was also greeted by the SOAC during my journey. They are similar in design to the R-44s.
Like I said, Sparky took me to task, and I achieved the impossible, I took a written test for streetcar ops and passed. YEA!!!!!!!!!! I just needed to pass my road test and I was all set. This Station Agent continued to practice handling Cars 631 and 4387. Interesting ops: operators utilize paddles as a means of manual signals when running up the line to Talbott Park. In a nutshell, the person who has the LGP, or Large Green Paddle is the last car that can enter the single track line. Once the LGP is taken, no other cars may enter the area. A total of 6 Cars are permitted to travel on the mainline, and a work car which would have an orange paddle. It's mostly straight track so you can see your leader in front of you. Once you get to Talbott Park switch into the loop and I pass the LGP to the operator on the lead car so he has clearance to re-enter the mainline from the loop. He must verify with the dispatcher in charge that it is ok to return home to the Visitor Center.
Also, at Talbott Park, one notices a track that continues straight into a wooded area. This track continues into the town of Biddeford. Someday, Seashore may extend its operating trackage.
On Wed., I met with the SubTalker known as the Boston T Party. It was now time to take the road test with Car 4387. I passed the road test and had become a qualified operator. Whoa! I had really done it. I'm now a qualified operator at another Museum!
Museum oddities: Seashore has a double slip switch, something I hadn't seen previously. Operators have to come to a full stop before crossing onto the switch and entering the Visitor Center Loop. Sightseeing car #2 from Montreal is also unusual. How many cars does one often ride in the open air? A smooth ride nevertheless. The car handles like a true champion.
It was time to go home, Ed and I were bid farewell by JohnS and Lucille. The Downeaster was already at Wells and we departed at 2:43PM. We were delayed by a Guilford freight on the way to Boston, but made it home to NYC by 9:40PM. Our train from South Sta. to NYP was lead by an AEM7.
Many thanks to Sparky, Lucille, Todd, and the Boston T Party, and many others who made the trip nawth memorable. I will return again.....The trip to Seashore is well worth it (shamless plug for other to go).
-Stef
P.S. I do have pictures of the trip, and am debating the possibility of either forwarding them to Dave or put or upload them to a site where I can get some web space.
Jeremy
-Stef
Thank you for welcoming me into the family....
-Stef
Did I say how much I enjoyed the gift shop?
Brought 3 NY Subway Tapes and a book for my troubles. Nice variety...
-Stef
BTP
I'll be studying the rulebook...
-Stef
I used to love riding the 5 because you almost never knew what you were going to get. A redbird, an r142, or an r62! There was always some element of suprise as the train rolled into the station. Now almost always, you get the r142. Don't get me wrong though, I love em!
--R142A
til next time
HA! Hell No. The R142's shoe beam can't make proper contact with the third rail. Plus Corona can't handle them as of now.
What about on the 1/9 and 3 trains?
The 3 will be getting R62's from the 4. The 1 may have a R62 once every few months, but other than that the only thing on that line will be the R62A's.
I used to love riding the 5 because you almost never knew what you were going to get. A redbird, an r142, or an r62! There was always some element of suprise as the train rolled into the station. Now almost always, you get the r142. Don't get me wrong though, I love em!
I have some information on that, but I can't divulge of it since
1. It isn't written in stone and
2. I don't have permission.
What I can tell you is that in the next few months to a year keep your camera ready and your eyes peeled.
I happen to like the look of chrome and glass. You can have shape and color and evocation just as you can with older things. That includes houses, autos, subway cars, whatever.
In art and style there is no "lack of character," only different subjective points of view.
Mark
I know, two others posted the same thing, but I like taking people's sentences and mangling them to make my response.
1. Kept in the museum fleet
2. Donated to museums
3. Which museums will get the donated cars?
Dial-Up:
http://real.ny1.com:8080/ramgen/real3/00070892_030921_85855lo.rm
High-Speed:
http://real.ny1.com:8080/ramgen/real3/00070892_030921_85855hi.rm
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
There is a ramp alongside the current tracks and I saw rail ties in the ground. Obviously this ramp connected to something one time in the past (before the Gowanus Expressway).
Can anyone provide a clue as to what this ramp was used for and what it connected to the Sea Beach?
I looked at copies of old BRT/BMT maps and there is no indication of this service.
Is it possible they never carried the service on the maps?
Our own history guru, Paul Matus provides the following insights:
http://rapidtransit.net/net/faq/nyc/seabeach.html
And here's details on the original Sea Beach Railroad which describes the ferry connection:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/nysb.html
See, even BRIGHTON boys from the BRONX have respect for what once was. :)
I find it amazing that the wooden ties in that ramp are still there after all this time. But I guess with the supports for the Gowanus at the top of the ramp no one even gives it a second glance (other than railfans)
All of the southern division came home to Stillwell, and I worked out of Stillwell ... if you get a chance though, DO follow those links I left, you'll be FLOORED by the rich history ... and now, the obligatory "put that damned thing BACK in the rat hole." :)
Hypothetical trains:
NN Sea Beach Local
CI, 86, Av U, Kings Hwy, Bay Pkwy, 20 Av, 18 Av, New Utrecht Av, Ft Ham Pkwy, 8 Av, 59, 53, 45, 36, 25, Prospect Av, 9, Union, Pacific, etc...
N Sea Beach Express
CI, 86, Av U, Kings Hwy, Bay Pkwy, 20 Av, 18 Av, New Utrecht Av, Ft Ham Pkwy, 8 Av, 59, 36, Pacific, etc...
NX Sea Beach Super Express
CI, 59, 36, Pacific, etc...
Thus, the N train, just as the 4 train before it, is a Sea Beach Express.
D-Type at 86th st
BMT Standard at Bay Parkway
a Multi outside 20th Avenue along with a D-Type on express track
AFAIK there were no R1/9 series cars on the BMT lines in the pre-lettered BMT days because the rollsigns had letters a through HH and the cars were built for the IND. The post 1967 lettered era saw them mostly on the Brighton, Culver and Eastern Division with a few on the West End.
Unless I am wrong. Hope this brings back fresh memories for you, before the Sea Beach is now a gutter line. LOL
I can only guess that perhaps an occasional Triplex may have still run on the Sea Beach in the early 60s. The R-11s were slumbering in CIY awaiting their rebuild under the R-34 contract. The only other cars to have number curtains in those days were the R-16s, but they were firmly entrenched om the Eastern Division.
If anybody would know, it would be Larry Redbird R-33.
And there's an amazing amount of more where that came from at:
arrts-arrchives.com (Sea Beach Line info)
Thanks!
Great ride on the 7 back from Shea to Grand Central in the front car, though...
1) MTA has a posted maximum of 15 business days as a response time.
2) Subtalk has an approximate maximum of a few hours before someone with more knowledge than the person who asked the question kindly decides to post the relevant information - which will probably be a better answer than MTA will give.
Which would you choose?
Please feel free to NOT answer questions of which you do not approve. I won't be offended :-) Others are obviously nicer and more willing to help people than you are.
JONN
I think if you want to invest in rail related stocks, the best sectors to invest in now are:
Rail toy makers
Construction contractors
Transport consultants
Rail manufacturers
Tie manufacturers
Specifically, I would not touch the following with a bargepole:
Car builders
Carriers (i.e. railroads, operators, and contract management firms)
Signal contractors
AEM7
I also own NS, CSX, CP and BNSF and all of them have been fairly stable with reasonable dividends. You might look at both CSX and UP for the possibility of a future merger, but CSX sucks and you might want to avoid it.
Here are some quotes dated Friday.
Friday | One Week Earlier
Burlington Northern & Santa Fe (BNI) 29.400 | 28.710
Canadian National (CNI) 52.880 | 52.610
Canadian Pacific (CP) 24.700 | 24.660
CSX (CSX) 31.390 | 31.780
Florida East Coast (FLA) 30.900 | 29.940
Genessee & Wyoming (GWI) 24.150 | 24.000
Kansas City Southern (KSU) 11.430 | 11.810
Norfolk Southern (NSC) 19.600 | 19.430
Union Pacific (UNP) 60.550 | 60.900
Transit DC..Representing DC Area Transit and Beyond
BTW, don't forget to check out my DC Transit gallery at http://photos.transitgallery.com/DC-Transit , Enjoy!
BTW, my uptown train arrived immediately afterward, and everything seemed normal.
The more frequent skips on the F line occur southbound in Brooklyn, mostly Church Avenue - 18th Avenue - Kings Highway, then Avenues U and X.
The F train that I was on a few days ago actually went express after 7th Avenue, stopping at Church, 18th, Kings, Av U, Av X.
Quite common on the 1/9 too.
For better or for worse, performance is measured primarily by how close each train arrives at its terminal to its scheduled arrival time. If the train is late, that's bad; if the train never even reaches the terminal to begin with, that's even worse. But if the train arrives on time after skipping a bunch of stations, that's no big deal. And since the train will save more time by skipping a busy station than by skipping a not-so-busy station, there's a natural tendency to bypass precisely those stations that need every ounce of service on the schedule.
IMO, this metric is not a very good one. On many lines, the terminal has much less passenger traffic than intermediate local stations, but it's the intermediate local stations that lose service so the train can reach the terminal on time. Also, if there is a long gap in local service, this metric discourages the train dispatcher from sending a scheduled express down the local track to fill the gap -- I once saw this myself, at 86th Street, when, during a 30-minute gap in morning rush hour 1/9 service, not a single 2 or 3 was routed onto the local track, because then it might have arrived at its terminal a few minutes late, and that would be the end of the world (never mind that it could have made up time by running express in Brooklyn, where southbound morning ridership is very low -- I guess that didn't occur to anyone at the time). The first local to show up was naturally packed to the gills. To my surprise, it stopped at 86th and 79th, but it bypassed 66th and 50th -- the two busiest stations served by only the 1/9!
I have an idea for an additional performance metric that could help to reduce this sort of problem. I've posted it here before; I can repeat it, if anyone's interested.
Link would do it also.
If your gap was caused by a train with a technical problem more switches
in combination with signals to use the left rail would had decreased the
gap (Island platforms would be very practical)
In Frankfurt city tunnel we have a headaway of 2.5 minutes. If one
station track is closed (f.e. defect train) it's possible to run the
trains with a average headaway of 5-6 minutes.
If you think about it you answered your own statement.
Railroads do not skip stations when they are late becasue the next train is hours away. And when it reaches its destination a subway train is back in service much quicker Vs a RR train.
Why make two trains late when you can put one back in place and keep the other one on time.
You are also assuming that only one stop was skipped and that the people that wanted to get off were not told about the skip (now many were liekyl not listening but told they likely were).
Must do it again.
I can't believe I completely FORGOT there was that thing going on at Branford today. I could've gone up there instead of the crappy day I had fighting with this damn camera. Oh well, there's always the one in the Spring...I'm jusst hoping that it doesn't "conflict" with "Ultimate Ride II".
I highly doubt it. I think I'm planing on an Autumn 2004 trip...
Rarely seen RT?
I'd guess we'll see 659 making a rare appearance....
-Stef
Now, compare it to the R-33's that used to run on the 2 (and later the 5), and the conclusion isn't quite so clear.
For those of you on natural gas heating, you're SO screwed - look for a pamphlet from your provider in the coming weeks. I've been praying all summer for an economy so's I could get down there AT LEAST once, definitely ain't gonna happen now. :(
I am more, now than ever, committed to REGIME CHANGE AT HOME.
And they still want to kill off Amtrak, not with the large contingent I saw on the Acela train at Stamford RR station in CT.
http://libertyvault.com/gwb.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/22/wbush122.xml
But if I wasn't over the top prior, this one takes the cake. And I was lucky - I got robbed for LAST year's oil ... last there was. It's ALREADY on allocation which means if you haven't filled YOUR tank, look for your bill to be near $2.00 a gallon. As it was, I got the 1,000 gallon deep discount on OLD oil. :-\
Wonder how AMTRAK is going to manage since off-road diesel *IS* the same juice I just bought. :(
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/EI23Ag02.html
Off-topic and thus not for discussion here, but I've really had a snootful of these guys. Since they wouldn't let us have McCain, maybe we can have Clark ... and I used to be a loyal republican. Like working for the TA cures foaming, having these guys cured the other.
Let's be real - Amtrak is NOT the answer as it's currently being handled - a decision to either scuttle it or improve it would be preferable to its current sorry state nationwide. At least McCain is a REAL conservative, not Karl Rove and Dick Cheney's puppet. Trying to privatize Amtrak in its current condition is tantamount to trying to find buyers for what's left of the West Side Highway. :(
Man, Unca Selkirk would need a LOT of drugs to wanna do THAT. :)
I'm a registered Democrat.
I'm a registered Democrat who voted for Gore. However I refuse to be part of the ultra left wing faction that pins every problem in the world on Bush.
As I've said often though, I live upstate. The bears ate the liberals back in the 60's. :)
We had a small crew, so all had to work hard, but I didn't see anyone complaining about (crew of visitors).
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.09.21/6688.html
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
That R-17 looks like it's in terrific shape for whatever the age of it is.
Yep!
Do you know if the car is capable of moving like that, or did they only get the lights, possibly doors and ventilation powered up?
Oh, she moves! I clocked the top speed of one run out to Short Beach at 29.0 MPH. On the return trip 6688 hit 28.2 MPH. Sorry I don't have any photos of her out on the line. But I have videos! I may post them, or some frame grabs from them, at some point. If you are interested in the raw videos (they range from 3MB to 50MB with sound) let me know. That goes for everyone.
That R-17 looks like it's in terrific shape for whatever the age of it is.
Entered service in 1955. Withdrawn from service in 1987. Acquired by the museum in 1988.
End signs a little tough to turn, gotta see if I can loosen them up.
What you see is what you get - the finished product. 6688 is essentially done after 4 years of work. There are some details that still need to be worked on, the underbody of the car will need work next season.
Thank ntraintoastoria (Andy B) for making the car presentable.
-Stef
(Although it could use motorized rollsigns.)
Jimmy
Jimmy
-Stef
I KNOW you know ... but think of what a fitting punishment roll sign work would be for those who screw with them on the REAL trains ... just stay there at Stillwell and just do them all for every train in and out of there. I think that'd cure 'em.
You couldn't cheat with a fabbed wrench with arnines. HAD to twirl 'em by hand ... then go tape up your knuckles. Bonus points - try whirling those with TA issued conductor gloves. Not much ouch for the knucles, but much less crank traction. (grin)
One of the reasons why I've gassed off at "sign-changers" here is that many don't realize how much work it is to change 60 rollsigns on the old war wagons, and invariably what I'd end up charging up for a trip up and down the Brighton was an F train the night before. While folks who didn't do that for their biweekly nut may find it fun twirling the knobs, painful thoughts come to my own mind every time I see hands on the rollsigns. :)
And all those times I waited for the 2 to get to Times Sq when I could have taken the 4 or 5. Damn.
So many of the supervisors would light one in the morning, keep it in their mouth all day, and light it up again on their way out.
Add a couple of motor flashes with brakes fully applied, and you'll be there. Good for WEEKS and WEEKS of REEKS. (grin)
It was different outside the rush hour schedule - THERE I'd try to be smooth as a baby's butt ... setup air, nice 10 pound application at worst, coast to the marker. I'd lose about 6 minutes on a trip that way, but it didn't matter. I was NEVER 6 minutes late on paper. :)
And you really DID want to put your conductor in front of the jailbars. That saved time too. Heh.
Not to be confused with the RED ones that indicate, "you shouldn't be standing here. If you see a train next to you, nevermind." :(
Jeez.
To be fair, LIRR has upgraded many city stations, though it took a special effort and much IOU collecting by State Senator Frank Padavan and Assemblyman Hevesi to get that done.
The Port Washington Line 's stations in the city have gotten a lot of attention:
Broadway - upgraded to ADA and scheduled for more work; Auburndale now being upgraded to ADA compliance and getting a new waiting room (that project shuld be close to finished); Bayside was completed by 2000; Douglaston and Little Neck are in pretty good shape.
Flushing Main Street could use some work, but it's not horrible (other than no ADA access, which is important) and Murray Hill station is a garbage dump.
Woodside was redone relatively recently and looks very good (ADA compliant too!) and Jamaica is getting a major re-do. And ESA is bringing Queens a new station (Sunnyside).
Stations on the Far Rockaway Line in the city looked pretty good when I rode, but Queens Village, Hollis and Bellerose could use some improvement (and ADA access).
Others are better or worse depending on what you call "Progress", such as Westhampton. I really miss the "small town" feel most of the diesel territory stations have lost during their renovations:
Westhampton before and after:
Unfortunately, so many of the old station buildings now have chainlink fences in fromt of them, and the platforms moved away from the old station buildings.
Speonk had a similar metamorphasis and the new stations is actually built on the other side fo the street from where it used to be.
Speonk before, and two photos taken this past May:
Murray Hill station is a garbage dump.
Ain't that the truth:
Most of the other statios within the city are also in less standards of their Nassau cousins.
(excuse some of the scans quality, slides are not easy to scan)
East New York isn't that bad considering it's locastion in the middle of no where:
I haven't been to Nostrand in a while, but it was sort of embarrasing that they had the station sided with fiberglass sheating. I don't know if it still is:
Iforgot to mention the Brooklyn branch. The intermediate stations need work - but the Atlantic Avenue terminal is getting a big makeover now ($400 million).
So it's a mixed bag.
Jimmy
Yup, I have every LIRR station, even abandoned ones (well the sites if they were abandoned many years ago). Most of my photos are from the early to mid 90's, although I do have current ones too from many. I don't have all of them scanned, as some are slides and don't scan well. But here's the requested ones:
Greenport Station:
Greenport Freight House (LIRR Museum)
Montauk:
Long Beach:
It still is...I've been there many times in the past months, photographing the M-7s in service on that branch...it still is...nothing's changed...
Incognito
I'm guessing quite a few Caltrain stations are also primarily reverse-commuter, in particular 22nd Street and Bayshore... IIRC, the line as a whole has a roughly equal distribution of peak traffic, or at least did at the height of the dot-com boom.
But that work is funded, if I recall correctly, so you'll see improvements before long.
Kew Gardens and Forest Hills are in good shape, both recently re-done I believe. ADA access at Forest Hills looks treacherous -- with long winding ramps.
They're finally making some progress at Rosedale which will be ADA.
Nitpick: Bellerose is a Nassau County station.
CG
The ones north of Fordham always struck as far better than south of Fordham.
I recently took a train to Spuyten Duyvil, and it was fine too.
Melrose and Tremont may be neglected because they only get a handful of riders per day.
Melrose
CG
Harlem-Wassaic, New Haven-Stamford, Hudson-Sputyen-Duyvil.
The worst, one per line:
Harlem-Melrose, New Haven-None Really,Hudson-Marble Hill.
I would actually tie Marble Hill with Morris Heights. A semi-bad station for the NH(from train views) would be New Rochelle.
Jimmy
Hmmmm... Grand Central Terminal looks pretty neat. Oh and isn't Flatbush having some huge rehab done?
1938 WF motor facing north
1938 WF motor facing north
Lo-V non-motorized trailer
1938 WF motor facing south
1938 WF motor facing south
The middle cars was ALWAYS a non-motorized trailer.
Sometimes, you'd see a Lo-V motor unit in place of one of the 1938 WF motors. I do remember some of the numbers -- 5602, 5606, 5624, 5628, 5636 were some of them. Used to ride these trains almost every day to/from Cardinal Hayes HS.
--Mark
-Stef
And I was only gently busting ... after all, I'm sure there are preserved FORNEY engines out there, painted light blue with a silly FACE on the front. Sometimes ya gotta choose between "from the factory" and sometimes ya gotta choose what people REMEMBER. Any way you slice it, 6688 looks GREAT!
If I can make it up there next year, I'll bring a hot water bottle so's we can take off the trumpet and make it MOO. :)
I'm afraid to ask what happens to old motormen.:)
Really? I have not noticed that.
Look at the logo in Brian's photo.
Now compare it to this one:
Compared to the second one, the first one looks, well, "off". There is lots of whitespace under "New York City" or the big M seems too small.
I'm sure the decal is authentic ... is it an authentic irregular one though?
--Mark
Close; 20" diameter
Wonder what they would say if we put up four different numbers ... Heaven forbid !
Thanks for pointing out the batch runs.
--Mark
-Stef
They're real. And they're spectacular!
I hope you at least got a buzz from the fumes.
Jimmy
-Stef
Jimmy
Jimmy
Now Unca FRED will need to be restrained by Unca Thurston and Dougie. I'll bring some inflatable rats for the wayside. :)
Jimmy
Done pole duty and handthrow duty too ... funnier'n hell, last time I was there, everybody was afraid of getting wet so Nancy and I did our share of letting Sparky play with his trolleys and drawing NICE arcs in the mist, even the "tuck it in the door rubber trick." Looking VERY much forward to meeting ya. Us sickoids gotta watch out for one another when hauling foamers ya know. (grin)
We can do that
Ya no phuck around on SELKIRK'S train ... got yellow wood, know how to use it. YALE style. :)
I don't think he's too crazy about R-1/9s. He associated them with the 4th Ave. local, and he can't stand that line.
Unca Dougie LOVES to re-enact Malbone for any takers. And Branford's a WHOLE lot cheaper than one of those civil war battlefield themeparks. (grin)
I have faith in Unca Fred ... he'd LOVE it. If he wants a Triplex ride, those folks with the MOD runs will be happy to accomodate him there. And I might be able to evangelize the boy into an IND fan with 1689. Especially if we give Unca Fred some handle time. Booowahahaha.
Conductor's cap - $35.00
NYCTA peawhistle - $25.00
Dumping an arnine while making hand gestures - pricele$$.
I'd be HONORED to have you as a guest, and there's nothing that demonstrates the REAL experience of "happy motoring" more so than clamboring up on a dead car that's "off the juice," connecting up power, waking it up, testing the equipment, and doing yard moves to bring it out to the mongrel hordes, whistle-blowing, "here we come!" Highly recommended. :)
Ask Steve 8th Ave Exp ... he came and rode with me LAST time I was down there, and he did the climb and startup with me. It'll give you an idea of what it's like before a train rolls into your station and since the Arnines are much like the multis as far as running 'em goes, it might even fill in a little more detail for you as to what's involved. Guaranteed amusement if you can stand it. Just don't whiz on the electric fence. (grin)
Nope ... we've got to find OIL. :)
You were supposed to run the fans even in February just to make sure there was oil in the cups and they weren't going to go up in flames because they were jammed. Opened the roof vents as well to air out the car (another part of the ritual, leave the stank in the yard). Running the heat to dry out the car on such a clammy, foggy, drizzly day was also part of the ritual too, but if I'd done that, Unca Sparky's trolleys would have blinked out and rolled to a stop fromt he overload. Heh.
One of the things geese seem to like the best about arnines is them twirling neck choppers (Ask Unca Thurston about his well-justified fears of riding arnines with them bare helicopter blades) doing their thing. Suck it up, boy ... ;)
If I didn't know any better, I'd say (F) or (Q), but (L)? It doesn't have nay lettered avenue stations.
Find Avenue L :)
My "friends" at the museum love to correct me, right Sparky ?
Also, the guy on the left in your bottom thumbnail is
Mr. 76 St.
I think Steve the tunnel rat has been south of the Mason-Dixon line a couple of months ago, or his Doppelganger is running around in the Charm City environs.
Somebody who looks a LOT like him was spotted at America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum.
Can anybody confirm?
Additionally, when the doors were closed for the first time this morning, David Greenberger fell of the bench seat and onto the floor laughing hysterically. I think a half hour later he stopped laughing. You wanna know why? Let's just say R-17 6688 is now one of the things that go "bing-bong" in the night.
Glad you like it, remember the redbirds:)
-Stef
Since 6688 saw service on most, if not all, the mainline routes it should be left as a "generic" car.
The October page from Bill Newkirks' 2002 Subway calendar shows a set of R-17s on the 1/9 at 181st. 6614 is the southbound lead motor. Guess who did the job uptown .... that's right 6688 was at the other end.
That was 1987 & she was red. On this site you'll find a shot of her on Times Square Shuttle duty when she was white. Two layers of anti-graffitti paint was part of what we had to go THROUGH to get her re-painted.
I also note and GREATLY appreciate that 1689 ain't painted in no damned "War between the states" paintjob. :)
But ONE thing you guys can be REAL happy about - if you put a magnet on carbodsky, it still STICKS. :)
Amusingly though, for cars designed to run most of their lives "inside," the arnines seemed to have pretty good drainage. Only thing that really screwed them up was pieces of the New York Post. :)
And yes, another group of them filled in for the R-33 singles while they underwent GOH.
Andy B (Ntraintoastoria)
Stand clear of the closeing doors
( Bing Bong )
I see the bingbong made its return. It must have been your influence:)
-Stef
I'm *extremely* impressed with what y'all did with her ... and that she's managed to survive with Unca Dougie having taken her out more than once. She looks great as a redhead, even if you and me and a few others know better. But hey, that's what folks are going to remember, not the rusticle-colored kale green they originally were. I go to my room now. Heh.
-Stef
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy :)
--Mark
Dan
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
You would have had to catch me first. I hear 775 is quite the speed demon if you give her a chance.
http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/seabeachopen.htm
What happens to the car after the water's gone?
I suspect the car go to the shop. But what does the shop do? Let it dry out and then find the newbie guy to power it up? Just rebuild everything? Hose it down and stick it back into service?
Worked with two sets of people who lived through tunnel floods. In the case of the Glasgow Commuter Rail, they had two units that were trapped when the water rose up in the tunnels. The train operators were still on board, so they ran these units out (on their own power) and I think one of them suffered a few traction motor shorts, but otherwise made it up to the shop okay.
In the case of the Boston Green Line Flood '96, I think they had a Boeing unit trapped in the tunnel when it happened. So I was told, they basically just towed the thing in, salvaged what can be salvaged, and sent everything to Everett (heavy repair shop). I imagine that the traction motors could be rebuilt. The Boeings had the choppers under the carbody and I imagine all those circuits are toast. They also had wiring, and I'm not sure whether they had to replace those but they probably had some insulation failure so they'd have to fix some of it. My understanding is that it is pretty hard to destroy a subway car with water -- if you spent enough money, everything can be fixed. The T has a lot of maintenance money, and not much capital, so I am not surprised that the car got fixed.
AEM7
The Glasgow commuter system has catenary electrification. You can't run third-rail electric trains through a flood! When I was a kid there was a flood on the Southern Electric (third rail) system near where I lived, and for several days they had to cover that stretch of line with a shuttle made up of with a few old cars hauled by a steam loco, which could get through the flood.
I'm guessing these are R68a's with car numbers in the 5100's, not 5,100 Kawasaki cars on one train!
Frank Hicks
Thank you.
I'm working on it! :-)
There's a partial list of surviving Lackawanna MU cars here. This list includes 73 cars, which is probably about 1/2 or 2/3 of the actual number of surviving Lack MU cars.
I've heard that in 1985, when the cars were sold, the Tri-State NRHS Chapter (I think?) published in its newsletter a complete roster of MU cars including information on what organization bought each car. Does anyone have this list, or have an idea of where I could get a copy of it?
Frank Hicks
Interesting question, and debatable. In general I think it's better to have trains on one stretch of track, without merges and de-merges, and have the passengers rather than the trains make transfers.
But in any event that's not the way the New York system was built. And if it was Brooklyn would have been dead meat after 9/11. We really needed flexibility.
You *need* more tph in midtown, on the turnk lines, these circulate beople about within manhattan.
You *need* more terminals out in the sticks (sorry Brooklyn, Queens) with more destinations, so that you may better serve people coming into the city.
This is the only reason why NYC bothers with express trains on the main Manhattan trunk lines: CAPACITY!
So keeping each trunk line in Manhattan at say 30 tph (a train every two minutes) the outlying areas do not need this capacity: it stands to reason that three lines could merge into one trunk. You *could* have on 6th Avenue say, 6 routes operating on the two (local and express) trunks that are there. This presumes very efficient merges and diverts, merges that idealy should occur before the trains cross into Manhattan.
(B) Bronx Local / 6th Ave Express / via Bridge to Brighton Beach
(D) Bronx Express / 6th Ave Express / via Bridge to Coney Island via West End
But then what? another train from CPW? One from the 63rd Street Tunnel?
Where would it go... It MUST go across the bridge... Where to?
It is easy to say a train should do this or should do that, or that it should go across the Williamsburg bridge to Metropolitan Avenue, but that makes an extra merge to get off of 6th Avenue, and another merge to get onto the bridge....
You see the problem.
Simplify... but provide a optimal level of service both ont the trunks and in the hinterlands....
I guess the MTA *is*doing the best with the infrastructure that it has.
For more outlying capacity, which is needed, another trunk route in Mahattan is required to handle it.
BTW, Did I ever tell you about my plans for the yrtle Fifth Avenue Subway?
: ) Elias
I'm on my way out the door to get some really bad pictures with my cheesy RCA digital camera.
As it was I didn't get a single picture out of my parent's old cheesy RCA CDS1000 "Digital Camera," however I did talk to several people taking pictures of the happenings down there, one of whom I think was a railfan, he had a hat with a PCC in PTC Creme and Green on it (any subtalkers down there???), and also one of the tenants of the building which was hit (which made me feel like a complete ass, asking favor for a hobby of a guy temporarily evicted from his building). If they get anything decent they said they'd send it to me, I gave out my email address like a dozen times, so I'll post whatever I get, with proper credit, of course.
I did take my newly acquired Handspring Visor, and I jotted down the whole affair, from about 5:30 to when 9001 headed across Baltimore Ave, in notes from there. I'll post that in a few minutes here.
I'd say the trolley definitely won, it basically appeared to hit the building broad side, both trucks were turned almost 90 degrees off the centerline of the trolley. A few people were saying that if the trolley had run straight off the tracks, it would have run right through the building, or at least pushed a long way into the first story (of course who knows if the first floor can support a Kawasaki LRV, probably not). Even with it's dimished power, it still did a heck of a lot of damage to the bay window facing 42nd St, knocking enough bricks out of the way to reveal the interior layer of bricks for the first story, and completely exposing the basement, as I noted, I could see the flourecent lights on.
Here's hoping that this was the last SEPTA derailment for a good long while, and that 9001 is back on the rails soon (well it is now, I think, least it was the last time I saw it...), or back in revenue service soon...
Sean@Temple
9001 derails
Partial equipment list
SE4056 international panel van
SE 6400 ford explorer
A3109D Chevy pickup
SE0221 'bridge St.' Chevy pickup
OPS2209 wrecker
9084 on the 36 to Eastwick and Island rd
OPS5648 jeep Cherokee
LR08036 ford overhead maintenance truck
LR01165 Chevy stake bed
OPS1032 explorer
SE1033 explorer
OPS1021 explorer
Kawasaki Rl671 front end loader
SUR1320 ford pickup
SE4100 explorer
SUR2043 explorer
SUR1991 explorer
SE0136 Chevy stake bed
SRM4109 explorer
RTV6387 explorer
OPS3814 Chevy utility back
OPS0842 blazer
OPS8037 overhead line truck
LR04164 white Chevy with camper cover
5453 attempts k-turn at St. Marks,
Cannot turn backs down spruce to 43rd
Stoplight taken out by car as it left the tracks
Overhead must have been turned off 9084 has same lighting as 9001, and it’s pole is up
cbs 3 & 1060 here
Philly police wreckers G8 & G11 help
G11 lifts with car puller G8 pulls with wire
G11 pulls curb away
Kawasaki front end loader hauls curb off
Kawasaki front end loader now pulling front end of 9001
9001's pole down
block placed in between wheel to protect it from the Front End Loader’s shovel
Now that the police wreckers and the front end loader have positioned it on the sidewalk, ops2209 will pull it into the intersection
Kawasaki front end loader is now tilting the body of 9001
septa workers now measuring the gauge of the track on the curve, spray painting that on street
The entire side 1/2-way between the trucks and windows of the trolley was scraped up, possibly from an encounter with a streetlight
3 am
Scratch marks in the street, starting approx one quarter of the way through the turn *from the rear trucks*
Front truck scratch marks half way around the turn, diverges from tracks at very slight angle from tangent
Ops2209 digging up street, sliding on it's jacks as it pulls at 9001
Trolley now most of the way across the intersection
Damage to building now visible, pretty heavy, I can see the flourecent lights down there
Coupler now lying outstretched on the ground
It was on the 13-yeadon [just finally saw the front roll sign]
Right head light smashed in, turn signal intact, red dust below windshield
9084 is now (8:10) slowly rolling through the corner, now it's sitting at 42nd and pine
Bottom right corner of the windshield is shattered
Looks like they're gonna roll it to Elmwood or Woodland on it’s own trucks
The back trucks are in
5418 is the first RT 42 bus to make it straight through on spruce, headed westbound
The front truck is in, 9001 is back on the tracks
5459 just passed eastbound on the 42 on spruce, some busses still using Locust and Pine
9084 has backed to a quarter car length in front of 9001 both have their couplers outstretched
9084's coupler would appear stuck
9001's coupler now appears to be bent down by the accident; a lever is being used to raise that coupler to the height of 9084’s
They’re now coupled together, 9084 sounds like its charging 9001 ' brakes
They’re moving together, 9048's front roll sign is blank, its beacon flashing away
My first look at the damaged right side of 9001, lots of cosmetic damage, really the only body damage would appear to be at the bottom of the very front stairwell
The procession [a transit police car, 9084+9001, the Kawasaki Front End Loader, a LR### Chevy truck, SE4065, a couple Explorers and another cop] just crossed pine, I’m done
Man, first it's SUV's crashing into buildings, now trolleys, the vehicles have a mind of their own now.
Mark
This means that the entire DC Subtalker contingent is accounted for except for Mark (Mountain Maryland) and John. Please let us know you are well as soon as you can.
Oren
Thank You for asking----all is well up here---it was real close though, many streams were at flood stage, just not over flood stage. Residents in nearby Hampshire County WV (Romney) got nailed though by the South Branch of the Potomac----as for power, just some momentary losses of power but nothing compared to what you all got "down-state"
As for John, I was watching, I think, Channel 7 out of DC and they had a camera crew at North Beach, MD (where he lives) showing all the flooded homes...Hopefully one of them wasn't Johns....
John, Where are you? Are you ok?
Oren, Take care my friend, thanks for asking about out well-being.
Mark
Mark
Kudos to BGE all of the out of state help that worked to restore power. It was a mess down here.
Here are some pictures my brother took water.htm. I will have some more dramatic pictures that I will post once I get them downloaded from my camera.
John
I'm glad you're ok-------
Take Care my friend----tell me your fine collection of Metro stuff is safe, sound & dry...
Mark
Don't know yet. Have not looked through the stuff to assess what the damages are.
John
Chuck Greene
I observed them recording gauge measurements and such for that corner even before 9001 was was pulled out of the apartment's garden. They were extremely careful running 9084 across that same section of track, and stopped once or twice to look at the wheels. I didn't see anything, but two or three SEPTA engineer-types would point at different things with the tracks as the wheels crossed them and then converse, about what I do not know, but certainly they were looking at the track.
I know it seems odd that a trolley could leave the tracks and slide into a building at anything but high speed, but really if you think about it, there was very little to stop the trolley, just a very low curb to overcome. Really damage to the building would seem to lead to the idea that the trolley wasn't moving all that fast when it hit the building, the building just happened to be there to stop a 5-10mph trolley, and brick doesn't take a lot of force, so it caved.
If you had asked I would have given you the answer, no problem.
If you want to look at Archives, just click here :-)
PS: could you email me and tell me when it's going to air? Despite my searching I couldn't find it.
Thanks
Discovery Times Channel
Time: TBD
Fire up the VCRs, TiVos, and computer based personal video recorders! I'll be doing the latter.
Use the timer
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Yes, as long as I make it a VCD or an SVCD.
Chuck
:)
Anyone (else) who would like a VHS of the program can
*(write to my email)* and I will contact you with further specifics
and 411..
I will contact those who have already posted HERE, provided
you have a valid E address on the post.
**SAVE BANDWIDTH... take the line over to email!!!**
Disclaimer:
-Offer will VOID if/when the program becomes available for sale
in Discovery Channel Stores or at your nearest shopping mall.
(doin' GOOD CLEAN business, heeeeere)
Thanks brahs...
SP spoken here.
:)
I think Chap11ChooChoo is manning the VCD line... but thanks
for the input (and much-needed laugh)!!
Sorry brah... I'm *purely* VHS here.
Tho IIRC Brother Pigs or Brother Alaikum do the DVD gig..
Koi
Robert
I wonder how long it will take to remove the abandoned platform.
We in New York have been carrying that burden for a long time, with local money primarily. Thank goodenss we have a subway that carries much of its operating costs from the farebox (though the buses are a drain), and have dedicated tax revenues (though those have been raided from time to time by the state). But too bad they encumbered the future use of those funds with all that debt.
Metrorail, and the governments which finance it, must start switching from primarily a system-expansion mode to a system-reinvestment mode, where a dedicated capital plan makes sure the system stays in a state of good repair. This isn't as sexy as building new lines (and I'm not saying they shouldn't build new lines). But it is necessary.
Voters there have a chance to prevent the kind of deferred maintenance than hurt the NYC subway in the 1970s. Let's hope they do.
They need more downtown tunnels! Dig! Dig! AEM7
Get my drift?
And New York Av station is getting built, isn't it?
AEM7
It attests to its success, but also to a shortage of capacity.
My understanding is that they don't run full length trains in DC, and all they have to do is buy cars. True?
How long are the platforms? Could you go to 8 cars? 10 cars?
D.C. cars are hell a lot longer than most NYCTA cars. Any longer trains you may as well walk to your destination. AEM7
But not the same as other NYCTA cars, which runs in 10-car formations.
The other cars are 60 feet long, so a 10 car train is 600 feet long; an 8 car IND train of 75 foot cars, which is considered full length, is the same length, 8 x 75 = 600 feet.
Thus, running 10-cars on the Washington Metro system would result in unreasonably long walks within the stations...
I don't even know about going up to 8-cars -- the capacity won't be used, unless the stations have end-exits in addition to center exits. What about just resignalling and getting more headway?
AEM7
Rsignalling would help in the interim. In the long haul, especially if additional lines are built into more suburbs, the rea answer is to build more capacity into each line.
In the 1960's NYCT did manage to add two tracks to the 6th Av trunk - an excellent move, in my opinion, and a worthy accomplishment in the midst of other failures. Perhaps it is time for Metrorail to consider doing that to at least one of its routes within the central business district of Washington. It isn't life or death right now, but the long lead times involved means somebody should at least be commissioning a study.
Eight car trains would ultimately reach capacity. Try getting on the Red Line at Gallery Place going towards Union Station during PM rush (although most of the load leaves at Union Station) or at Woodley Park going inbound in the morning.
Finally, the reason WMATA says it can't run 8-car trains is: the motors aren't strong enough. At least that's what I once read in the Post.
Get ready for a long explanation from Oren, but I think it is something like 7 cars at some stations and 8 cars at others. Or maybe 8 cars at almost all of them. I don't know. But you and I both will know very soon.
All stations are 600 feet long. All cars are 75 feet long. Thus, the longest possible train is 8 cars.
It seems that a good idea is hard to propogate from system to system. Then again, while NYC was putting in bright fluorescent lights in the IND system in the 1970s, WMATA was making their stations so dark, you can't see them through the tinted windows, and some people with less than perfect vision can barely see where they are going in the stations. And the outdoor stations use incandescent bulbs that look like Thomas Edison personally made them. I know this is for aesthetic reasons, but they could also have painted the tunnels with lit up pictures of the Mona Lisa for aesthetic reasons, but didn't.
8 75 foot long cars
Currently, the Red, Green, and Orange Lines run 6 car trains during rush hour and the Blue and Yellow are a mix of 4 and 6. The WMATA Blue Line is probably one of the only transit lines anywhere that consistently runs longer trains weekends than it does on weekdays.
On the minus side, all their new cars for a long time have already been built. If only I had been the head of Metro and thought of this 5 years ago :-)
This subject has come up before, I think, and I think the conclusion was that because the fares are higher, and DC riders expect a more commuter-rail like service (because of the long distance travelled), they need more seats than standing room. 4-door cars would have too much standing room and not enough room for seats. AEM7
However, this design decision was made long before increasing ridership threatened to turn Metrorail trains into the kind of packed sardine tins you see in NYC.
I actually think it is the correct design decision. All they need to do is to move towards some degree of congestion pricing, and employers would be forced to change their work hours to allow workers to come in off-peak. AEM7
That is another valid strategy (along with re-signaling, which you suggested earlier).
However, in order to do that, you need employers who are willing to schedule employees flexibly, and politicians who will support congestion-based pricing. Any guesses as to how much cooperation (or resistance) you'd see?
Mark
Not necessarily. The feds moved a lot of jobs to the suburbs, and the Washington Metro has had a private sector boom in recent years. Why, the lobbyists alone...
Actually, probably not much. Imagine this scenario: Metrorail implemented a three-step charging plan: the existing peak fares remain, except at the peak of the peak, the fares are doubled. The off-peak fares are halved. This will cause a lot of people to switch from the peak of the peak to the peak. People will complain, but MetroRail will do nothing (just like it ignores complains about on-time performance and such). Some people will begin to complain to their employers about not being able to take the transit off-peak. At the same time MetroRail will roll out a program that allows employers to obtain subsidized passes that are valid off-peak only...
Lots of things can be done, even if you only had control over MetroRail. It's just a question of whether WMATAGM has balls, and wishes to put his career on the line.
AEM7
I don't work for WMATA. If you thought I was Richard White, you are wrong.
PATCO cars don't have gates. It entailed stepping between cars on the narrow end-of-car platforms and entering a car. Jersey Mike refers to this as the chuchubob maneuver
The tricky part was that this overcrowding occurred when it rained, so I did this with a briefcase and an umbrella (full length non-folding, 20 years ago). The looks of astonishment on the faces of the people whom I joined standing in the aisle added to the sense of accomplishment.
The idea has been brought up in the past, it hasn't been defeated but I don't think it has gotten much support either.
In the end, it's the commuter who will suffer.
Though I have to say William Donald Schafer was a great man. He wanted a light rail in Baltimore and just went and built it. He wanted to improve the drive to the beaches, which affects nearly everyone in the State, and he did it. But generalizations implying that Bob Ehrlich is the Devil incarnate and the previous Governor was the Archangel Gabriel is reminiscent of (unfortunately) typical New York style generalizations and fantasies to belittle people who happen to think slightly differently from them.
Bob Ehrlich has been described as a "political chameleon". He represented a Baltimore County district that is 89% Democratic by registration.
There is a Republican minority in the General Assembly. Pretty much a blip on the political viewer.
It's the general view that Ehrlich got elected simply because Glendenning was such a sleaze (politicly and privately, the voters were basically sick of the whole mess) and KKT was tied to his coatstrings (and managed to run one of the most insipid campaigns in years).
It's been 30+ years since our last Republican Governor was elected and the Democrats have be living pretty high on the political hog.
Transit will most likely get the short end of the cash coming out of Annapolis. Metro is successful but off the Annapolis radar, except for Montgomery & Prince Georges counties. The State agency, the Maryland Transit Administration, is out of control, scandal ridden and will take a David Gunn type (or two) to correct all the problems. Buses still throw wheels (front ones this time, we thought that was over, but this the MTA we're talking about), the labor situation is poisonous and the Light Rail is mis-managed and has been since 1992.
The current MTA is considered by some to be worse than the last year of NCL controlled BTC.
If Boston adopted a similar pricing strategy (congestion and distance-based pricing), it will recover more than 100% of the operating costs, I believe.
AEM7
Not true. The effective one-way fare from the Riverside to downtown and back again is $1.75 per ride ($2.50+$1.00)/2 = $1.75. The effective one-way fare from Braintree to downtown and back to Braintree is $1.50 per ride. This pales in comparison with D.C.'s $1.60 minimum fare, and $2.10 peak minimum fare, and $3.80 peak fare one-way inbound from Shady Grove.
Another point of fact to ponder: Orange Line extends out at both ends about as far as the Washington Metro lines. Forest Hills is about 7 miles from the downtown, which in Boston terms, is about the same distance as Washington suburbs such as Glenmont. Fare there inbound at peak hours is $2.75 one way, no?
AEM7
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/39_edo.pdf
It is not a bad idea, I have used that station on occasion during the AM rush and it just can't handle the passenger load of E trains, especially if one comes in after one just left(which happens a lot).
Of course, now the 5th Avenue station is going to be packed.
The same holds true for those who transfer to the 6 at Lex-53rd. Those who don't take the V at Queens Plaza will switch to an R to Lex-59th. As if the N, R, W platform didn't get crowded enough.
Most of the time they'll end up right back on the same train. Sometimes they'll jump one ahead; sometimes they'll jump one behind. Do you think they realize that their running back and forth is pointless at best?
We are talking about your average NYC Subway rider. Of course they will switch to an express and then back to the local (most would not even notice that it might be the same train they got off of earlier).
Pointless? Naturally but since when has that stopped anyone?
I was once on the 1. Apparently an older couple had goten off at 72nd to hop on the express, to get back on the 1 at 96th. When they got on, the wife noticed the car # and told her husband that it was the train. He refused to believe it since they had taken the express, he was convinced they were on a 1 ahead of their original.
There reason, the "A" is an express, the "C" is the local.
Yeah the C makes that extra stop at Cranberry St-East River.
How common it is depends on the line. Even on the Queens Boulevard line, which is probably home to the greatest degree of local-phobia, many passengers do remain on the local through Roosevelt, and the number seems to be growing. On the West Side IRT, I generally see very few passengers get off the local at 72nd (in either direction) to wait for an express, and presumably some of those who do get off the local need specifically the express (for points north of 96th or south of Chambers). Of course, if the local and express meet, lots of folks make the transfer, since there's nothing to lose except possibly a seat.
On my afternoon trips home, if the local and express pull in together at Times Square, I take the local, even though I'm going to 86th. Why? Because I'm on my feet all day. If the local and express meet, I have no trouble getting a seat on the local, and I keep it all the way to 86th. If I take the express, I probably have to stand to 72nd. If I'm lucky, I'd just catch the local ahead of the one I saw at Times Square, but usually I'd have to stand on the platform at 72nd two minutes until that same local came in, and then stand the rest of the way to 86th. I'd rather sit than have the very small chance of getting home two minutes earlier, so I take the local.
Similarly, if I wait four minutes and then an express pulls in, I don't bother getting on. The chance that it'll catch up with a local by 72nd is slim at best, so why not stay where I am and claim my seat a few minutes earlier?
Makes sense to me. Manhattan-bound E passengers have lots of easy alternative options: use the V, use the R, go to 5th and backtrack downstairs. And any Manhattan-bound E passenger who doesn't know about the bypass ends up a few blocks away, with a simple return trip. Under the previous GO, Lex-bound E/V passengers didn't have any easy alternative options, and anyone who didn't know about the bypass ended up a borough away.
Has anyone been through the area lately, in either direction? What's actually happening?
Says who?
>Has anyone been through the area lately, in either direction? What's >actually happening?
They are shaving a 1/2 hour off the GO and you guys are going bananas.
Read it again slowly and read the refering link, too.
They have a TSS standing at 5th ave, 21st Ely and sometimes 50th st to remind crews for the duration of the GO. As much as a waste of time that is it is an easy way for them to know where supervision is for what will now be an hour and a half. The person at 5th ave, has twice threatened to write me up when he does not like my c/r announcements.
The GO was changed back.
I smell an internal war.
I assume other bus services are on schedule with detours and delays
I drove out River Road this morning. The light at Burning Tree and Nevis was out causing a delay that spilled onto the Beltway and went up the hill towards Bradley Boulevard, it probably went all the way to Potomac Village. I saw one outbound T2 (9706) but no inbounds. But to give you an idea of how this one dark light can mess up bus service, there was N7 (9258) at the light when I got there and the next bus was waiting to exit onto River Road from the beltway. I am sure those two buses will still be the regular distance apart once they get out of that mess. But traffic overall was surprisingly light on both River Road and Bradley Boulevard.
Be safe driving out there and have a great day!
City To Retire Last Redbird Cars In Subway
SEPTEMBER 21ST, 2003
The city will soon bid farewell to the last of the Redbird subway cars.
Eighty-eight of the old cars remain in service, but the Metropolitan Transportation Authority says they will be retired in a couple of months.
They will join dozens more on New Jersey's ocean floor, where an experiment is underway. Environmentalists hope to create an artificial reef and habitat for about 200 species of fish.
Researchers will check the progress in about eight years.
Retired subway cars were also sunk as artificial reefs two years ago off the coasts of Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia.
Unrefutable proff; the last Redbird will run November 22!
Does Toronto have commuter rail like that? The window design resembled the Toronto subway (which has "stood in" for NYC transit in different movies).
GO Transit used to have what looked like crappy, Canadien-built copies of Silverliner equipment.
Are you sure the cars are not NJ Transit Arrow cars with center doors? Those are the only ones I am aware of that have center doors. SEPTA may have had push-pull sets that have center doors. What was the equipment type?
Does Toronto have commuter rail like that? The window design resembled the Toronto subway (which has "stood in" for NYC transit in different movies).
I am a little concerned about all this movie money flowing to Canada just to get the movie scenes. U.S. movies should film U.S. transit scenes on U.S. properties. Time for a buy American 'Jones Act' for the movie industry?
AEM7
I just remembered, another property with center doors is NICTD:
AEM7
I didn't realize Chicago had any catenary-powered lines. I thought Metropolitan Rail was all diesel-hauled.
The cars I saw in the movie looked like the ones in your bottom photo. They had a center double-leaf door however (maybe they were painted on - I never actually saw the doors open), and the end of the train looked like your bottom photo also, with Metro North Commuter Railroad and a non-authentic M decaled or painted on it.
I don't like using Canada to stand in for the US either, but USA makes cheap B and C movies with low-ball budgets.
Do you think they put the actors and actresses up in a Motel 6?
Actually those aren't GO trains, they're Montreal AMT trains,they run on the Deux-Montagnes Commuter line out of Central Station. Montreal has had a 3kv overhead since the early days of the CN railroad, when they wanted to get out of a Stub-ended terminal, but had to ding under the city to do so. They recently converted to 25kvAC, and I think Bombardier or UDTC or whomever offered NJT the same cars that they sold to AMT, but for some reason, either that they were too slow, too small, or had too little high level boarding capacity, they were rejected.
Here's some more pics of the AMT cars off Railpictures.net:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=19838
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=17941
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=17852
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=17937
And if you want to read all the sordid details of AMT and other Montreal railroads, this guy's site was great:
http://www.haya.qc.ca/index.htm
I don't know if two short-turn tracks were really necessary. Was the one on the southbound side ever actually used?
You may remember before the renovation of the Broad St bound platform there was a little platform on that pass-through in the wall:
(second photo from http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html)
More precisely, the Chrystie St connector is connected to the local tracks at Broadway Lafayette.
You CAN do a complete switch of all local services south of W 4th so that the Houston St local tracks connect with the 8th Ave local tracks and the 6th Ave local tracks below Houston connect with 6th Ave local tracks above W 4th.
This has been discussed before and schedules have been checked. The answer is yes, slightly longer. IIRC about 8 minutes, but you'd have to check the schedules.
Iknow you guys will want to go and support the SAS.
But if you can't go, you can still write a letter or call Community Board 8 by phone and express your support.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
R30
David J. Greenberger
Chris R27-30
Lou from Brooklyn
Thurston Clark
Jeffery Rosen
N Broadway to Astoria.
It always seems like the weather was nice for these Subtalk trips, yesterday at Branford was no exception.
I started at Newkirk Ave on the Q and headed to Branford by train and bus. Since the car was full of other Subtalkers, I had to use the train. The train arrived at 7:10 and we were at Atlantic Ave in no time. That was easy; the #4 at Atlantic Ave was next, which was hard. The first car (and drunken RF window) was out and everyone was packed in the second car. This did not bode well for the ride; we have long dwell times at the worst stations at the first car (Fulton and 14th Streets). The announcements by the computer selected by the crew were correct at Fulton St (did not mention the J train) but incorrect at 14th St. (as usual), with the inclusion of the N train but the omission of the W train (Not to mention that the R train should’ve not been mentioned because is was not running north of Whitehall.) I managed to get to GCT in time for the 8:07 AM express to New Haven. After confirming with Choo Choo that I am on the way, I took a seat, relaxed and enjoyed the ride. Train early in the morning looked like a hotel with all the people sleeping across seats and the conductors didn’t mind one bit. Maybe some people were still tired from the Saturday night club parties a few hours earlier, things that make NYC unmatched in the world to this day. After leaving Park Ave tunnel, we made two quick stops at 125th and Fordham for pickups only. We attained about 50 before the Wakefield split then picked up more speed. Two tracks along Mount Vernon East and Pelham were OOS and just two long temporary platforms were set up at those stations, then we slowed down because of the slight New Rochelle curve. After passing New Rochelle, we broke 70 this time, leaving cars at the adjacent I95 (New England Thruway) in the dust. More temporary platforms were set up at Rye through Old Greenwich, this time there were the full compliment for the entire train length instead of two cars. After Stamford was our first official stop, we made most stops (except for Greens Farms, which only some trains stop there on weekends). Saw the new Diesel train sitting outside Bridgeport station, which would be the sole weekend train to Waterbury. Arrived at New Haven at 9:50, grabbed a Subway sandwich inside the waiting room and walked over to State St a ½ mile away to catch the GF bus to Trolley Square and a short walk down River road to the museum entrance. New Haven is a ghost town on Sundays, NOT ONE SINGLE STORE WAS OPEN ON SUNDAY. The new State St. RR station was across from the bus stops and I looked outside, nice job, with two ramps. The gate was shuttered because only trains stop there during rush hours.
The ride on the 10:45 AM route GF bus was FAST, the driver must be making up for lost time, he was 5 minutes late and was doing nearly 50 in some straight stretches, on a posted 25 mph. zone yet. I arrived at Branford and saw the trolley at Sprague station waiting with Jeffery Rosen manning the controls, he told me the rest of the gang was at the Avenue L station inside #6688. I walked down the tracks to the R-17 car. Choo Choo sees me and tells the C/R to close the doors in my face. Already, I hear the taunts directed at me, and I haven’t even boarded the car yet, YIKES! My cover was blown to bits now, at this point I just wanted to keep cool and enjoy the day. Doors opened and I was greeted by N Broadway to Astoria who was funny at times, he was the one taunting me. During most of the time spent on #6688, was changing rollsigns, teasing Choo Choo by taking turns calling on his cell phone, talking about people sleeping in the subway and the ever frequent battery seller (opps! cover blown.). #6688 was in the best shape ever, restored to a Redbird, the crew at Branford installed “BING BONG” sounds when the doors closed, and the marker lights were in working order. MY PERSONAL THANK TO THE MEMBERS OF THE SHORE LINE TROLLEY MUSEUM FOR MAKING THIS HAPPEN. We took a walk past the barns and loop where Greenberger had a Math quiz he produced for his class and gave me one to do. C’mon it’s been 15 years since I memorized this stuff and it shows, I had a score of 55 at most and I was too lazy to put my name on both pages of the test paper. R30 did better than Greenberger’s class; he scored a 98 on the same Math quiz so we congratulate him for that. We took photos all over the place, did some additional stuff and imitated the R142/143 announcements. Mr. 76th st, aka. Steve the “Tunnel Rat” was there too in his usual crazy self. He operated #6688 and CT #775. I did not operate any cars just wanted to have fun. Big Lou from Brooklyn and Thurston were the instructors. Late in the day #5566 came out for a suntan while #1689 was seen from the loop side of the barn (opposite the Avenue L side). Another P.C.C. was near the Low-V and we took pictures of that too. The BMT standard #2275 was in horrible shape; the body has serious gaping holes and needs a lot of work. But it’s in good hands at Branford as we all know. There was a mini-zoo on the first leg of tracks with a rooster, a deer and other animals on adjoining property. On the river that is near Sprague, Greenberger suggest to sent a barge of Redbirds and reef them there, good but the river was too shallow for that. We finished the day at 5 and all of us headed back to by car to New Haven station, so I can be dropped off there and take the 5:59 back to the city. Chris R27/30 decided to take Metro-North with me and it was his first time riding MNRR, while the rest of the group drove back on I95 towards their homes in NYC. We tried the RF window but an owner with a dog at the front seat made us change out mind. It was Sunday night and the train was packed so fast, I got off at Stanford while Chris took is all the way to GCT and waited a few minutes for the Stanford local. But Chris and anyone else, you missed it, an Acela Express train pulled up on the same track, with engine #2036 in front. Who said Amtrak is dead, the car was FILLED WITH SEATS AND PEOPLE HAVING FUN ON THEIR LAPTOPS. The train quickly left and the Stanford local came in, so I RF’d it and we made all stops with the longest dwell time at the Pelham and Mt. Vernon East stations, remember there were only two temporary platforms and people in Westchester are more civilized than in NYC, they did NOT block the platform so that the people can get off the train first. I got off at Fordham station and had my little adventure on the buses; see that post in Bustalk later this evening.
Q R68 2788
4 R142 7174
MNRR M6 8842
CT Transit Route FG (Nova Bus) 9617
MNRR M6 8424
Cars out in service at Branford:
CT trolley #775
CT trolley #1602
Montreal Trolley #2001
Jonhstown, PA Trolley, #357
And of course our favorite, R-17 #6688 on the high level.
Saturday Anon-E-mouse & Silver Fox were there operating.
Not just "another" PCC my friend, she is #1001, the FIRST PCC that went into public operation. She was part of the BRT/B&QT fleet in Brooklyn.
About 30 years ago she was re-painted in & out. This time the crew is fixing all the ding & dents that resulted from her bumpimg this or side-swiping that while in public service. She'll look just like she did on the first day of service back in 1936 when they get thru. Right now she's in grey primer. Also her younger sister (1949) #26, from the Newark City Subway, is being worked on.
Will that be on a Sunday? And any word on when the operator training classes will be this Spring?
Now, what is the Republican position on railfan windows and transverse seats? I guess the W runs mostly R-68A's for a reason.
Story here
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr223464354sep22,0,6261616.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
Too many city people have moved to Long Island, bringing city problems with them. I remember when Long Island was peaceful and quiet. Now, 50% of Queens and Brooklyn is out on the Island.
Most of Brooklyn is better than a lot of places on Long Island.
"Too many city people have moved to Long Island, bringing city problems with them. I remember when Long Island was peaceful and quiet. Now, 50% of Queens and Brooklyn is out on the Island."
Don't start with that hogwash. It sounds so ridiculous you'd have to have an IQ below sea level to believe it. Suburbs have their own home-grown trash. Any increase in population, regardless of here they come from, will result in challenges, which are made worse by the lack of any logic to housing growth. There is a disparity of income, but the real problem is that county and township governments don't have the resources, or choose not to devote resources (the term "denial" is good here), to deal with it.
I don't think that's true. People just tend to forget. I grew up on LI in the 70's and early 80's in a town which spanned from lower-middle to upper-middle classes economically. Over a 2 year stretch we had 7 murders in our town -- which was unheard of. People made the same kind of pronouncements about "city people" moving out to the Island. My high school class had 4 convicted murderers out of about 650.
Many of the things that make headlines are just statistical aberrations. They happen, people squawk and then they go back to the way things were. In the ensuing 20 years, I think my hometown has had one and maybe 2 murders. The one I can think of was a domestic violence case -- bad, but not really what people are thinking about when they talk about areas being unsafe.
CG
My high school graduating class is loaded with doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians, even a rabbi or two. It also had somebody who became a professional slumlord, a prick of a human being who lost all his conscience and compassion real early in life and didn't hesitate to threaten violence for what he wanted. The only reason he didn't end up at San Quentin or Pelican Bay is that he found himself wanted in a business that paid him enough money relatively legitimately.
He became a VP of a Japanese owned real estate company, then struck out on his own, and I heard rumors he was managing a restaurant, but I don't know if that's true or not.
That's simply not true. It's not any worse now than it was years ago. First of all, the station where this happened at is Wyandanch, which has been a fairly bad neighborhood for decades, if anything, it has gotten better.
Too many city people have moved to Long Island, bringing city problems with them. I remember when Long Island was peaceful and quiet. Now, 50% of Queens and Brooklyn is out on the Island.
Last I checked, 100% of Brooklyn and Queens is on Long Island.
But anyway since the 40's and 50's there has been an eastern migration from Brooklyn and Queens east to Nassau and Suffolk. Most of the people on LI can trace their roots to Brooklyn or Queens, even families that have been there for a few generations.
Crime rates have been falling for years, both in New York and in the nation as a whole. Ten or fifteen years ago many subway lines were dangerous places at night. Today the system's much safer. It's probably because crime rates have fallen so much that serious crimes get a lot of attention when they do occur.
Do you have some official statistics that back up your statement. It sounds suspiciously like what I was hearing about Puerto Ricans (who of course are not immigrants at all) in the ‘50s. How many illegal immigrants do you know, and what percentage of them are "criminals"? I know about 35 undocumented aliens living in the U.S., and all of them live rather ordinary law abiding lives.
I suspect that you couldn't even identify a Canadien illegal immigrant if you were talking with one. Other than the obvious status crimes of using false documents I have not noticed a higher rate of crime among illegal immigrants than in the population in general. If anything it is lower because they are trying to keep a low profile. And, they are more likely to be victims of economic crimes such as not being paid overtime, and even not being paid at all by unscrupulous employers.
Illegal immigration is certainly not new. You could get some appreciation of the life of an illegal immigrant reading Erich Maria Remarque's novel, Arch of Triumph set in 1939 Paris. The location is different, but many of the problems are the same as for illegal immigrants in the U.S. today.
Tom
Mind you, I am not opposed to using the threat of deportation or other legal convenience provided by illegal alien status as a tool to investigate and prosecute criminals who happen to be here illegally.
A transit-related example is the graffitti or scratchitti vandal who comes from Europe to vandalize trains and compare notes with other crooks in his "community." After a heavy fine, and some time at Rikers, I'd favor his/her receiving an express trip to Kennedy to board a plane back home to Europe (with a call to the police in the receiving city to let them know why he/she's being kicked out).
Or maybe some of that wouldn't happen if he/she coughed up some useful info.
The mere appearance of these undocumented aliens on American soil means that they are not leading law abiding lives.
"They also carry disease."
So do the rest of us. Your post's tone implies you are comparing human beings to rodents, and that could reflect very poorly on what your basic human values are.
Point #3, which you are correct about, negates much of the so-called burden they bring. They work very hard for substandard wages; you literally benefit from that when you buy fruit at the supermarket for very low prices. If you really believe what you post, you will never shop for fruit or vegetables in an American supermarket.
"Legal and illegal immigration are 2 different subjects. The former strengthens this country, the latter saps it's resources."
False statement. Legal immigrants can wind up on welfare as easily as the rest of us, and the work ethic most people come with makes the burden a wash.
If we did as you suggest, and focused our tax dollars much more on pursuing illegal immigrants, the result would be a disaster. Violent criminals would take notice and take advantage.
You don't know what you're advocating here.
I'm only stating fact. Illegal immigrants are not screened for communicable diseases like documented ones are. Why do you think tuberculosis has made such a comeback?
False statement. Legal immigrants can wind up on welfare as easily as the rest of us, and the work ethic most people come with makes the burden a wash.
We can screen documented immigrants so as to avoid the ones which will most likely become a burden to society. Undocumented aliens are already a burden, given the amount taxpayers must spend on schooling and healthcare.
If we did as you suggest, and focused our tax dollars much more on pursuing illegal immigrants, the result would be a disaster. Violent criminals would take notice and take advantage.
We can do both.
You don't know what you're advocating here
Same thing you're advocating: proper law enforcement.
Just to put it back on topic, my ex Barbedos girlfriend took the IRT from New Lotts to Nevins when she worked at Juniors when I wasn't able to drive her.
Your point about the St. Louis was especially well-taken. But that's America's historical anti-Semitism thriving around WW II.
Unless, of course, his jail career is more like that of Ed Norton in American History X, in which case he'll be eating his Salisbury Steak and instant mashed potatoes standing up.
Which isn't too likely, as he's a member of MS-13, and hence more likely to be a corn-holer than a corn-holee.
Yes, but that also depends on whether he substantially outweighs, or is outweighed by, the Crip or the Blood he manages to offend on his way to the mess hall.
And, of course,, there is always the occasional wild card, like a shank and who's hand it's in.
There probably will be quite a few MS-13 members in the Nassau jail. It seems to be the most active gang on Long Island, and probably the most ruthless.
The issue here is that the person who intervened, Mr Nosey, if only he had minded his own business, he would not have been slashed. I would have minded my own business. Some female getting yelled at by another male on a train is not something I will get involved in, not unless I know the female. AEM7
I would not intervene unless I saw threatening behavior, and then I would do whatever I had to to save a life.
Another lesson the commuter didn't know: if you're in a heated confrontation or argument with a stranger, and he reaches for his pocket or waistband, it's a safe assumption that he's not reaching for his business card. Either go for his hand or get away fast.
How do you 'go for his hand'? Catch it, and then twist it?
AEM7
Pretty much, yeah. With any luck you'll be able to get him into a wrist lock or armbar and peel away the weapon before he has a chance to use it against you. Weapons disarms are definitely last-ditch, low-percentage methods for use in dire circumstances only.
The next step is to step on his toes, so that he cannot shift his feet, and shove him over backwards. He looses balance easily since he cannot move the foot that you are standing on.
Then you drive your knee down on his sternum with all of your weight. If this does not kill him, you stand up again and kick him under the chin breaking his head open against the floor.
End of problem.
That might work against a totally unskilled attacker, especially if you've got a significant weight and strength advantage. But don't count on it. I'd say you'd be better off grabbing the weapons hand and trying for a wrist lock or armbar.
I ought to post this discussion on the forums at Sherdog.com (cool site, by the way) for an expert opinion :)
Maybe we can get all of the radio stations to play Gregorian Chant, eh?
: )
And Corelli's Concertina for Two Trumpets. Roger Delmotte and Arthur Hanause(spelling?) recorded a particularly good interpretation of that over 20 years ago for, I believe, the EMI label.
Or Lawrence Welk and make them fall asleep !
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe if we look like Mitch Miller. Selkirk can shave most of his beard to a goatee like MM, but I doubt if he's a baritone.
Bill "Newkirk"
1990:
Number of rap music (including “gangsta”) albums sold: 74 million
Number of teenage boys arrested for murder: 6,600.
2000:
Number of rap/gangsta albums sold: 125 million.
Number of teenage boys arrested for murder: 3,250.
From http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/Harpers.txt
Thats only because EMS and the Emergency Rooms can save more of the victims now, and so the perps cannot be charged with Murder....
Put em back out on the street again until they can get it right.
The easier explanation is that rap music has no correlation to violent crime, since you're obviously reaching to find one.
Between 1997 and 2001, the national murder rate dropped 18%, while aggravated assault dropped about 15%.
This could be because a greater number of murder victims are being saved, but such a statistic would lead to a rise in aggravated assault cases.
Nonetheless, EMS is doing a much better job of keeping people alive.
Elias
Yeah. I wish I lived in the 1940s. Those times were peaceful.
R12 is to R10
as
R142 is to R143.
wayne
So instead of all those wonderful audio clues, we now have MISTER ED, "Stand clear of the clooooooosing doors, please" ... AGGGH! I liked the groans, puffs, wheezes and rattles WAY better. Even the DEAF could tell what was going on without blinky-lights. :)
I also remember one particular ad asking, "Do all minors dig Milky Way?" featuring a little girl with chocolate all over her face.
We crossed the Manhattan Bridge on the north side - this was pre-Chrystie St., after all - and even though we ran express all the way, I cannot recall skipping any local stops. Those R-32s certainly were quick. The tunnel lights went by rapidly.
And HELL ... if you were commuting on the Third Avenue El to BEGIN with, then you weren't in so much of a hurry in the first place. :)
I do hope you realize I was referring to the LoV's on the Third Avenue El that got replaced by the R-12's ... I just didn't like THOSE because they chased away the LoV's ... while the number of serviceable LoV's were starting to dwindle when the change occurred, there WERE more than enough to service the schedule - they were just starting to run thin on spares and "rush hour extras" ...
There are some R12 and R14 lurking out there as rider cars. See the work car roster for full details as to which are still on the property. I know there's at least two of them working out of Westchester (Pelham line) yard.
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
245 of them right on this site!
wayne
When the inevitable Redbird railfan nostalgia trip takes place, will they sit it out? I doubt it.
You never know what you have until its gone. I remember riding the R1-9's as a child in the 1970s and thinking how noisy and clunky they were. Yet today, I would love to take a railfan trip on a train of R1-9's.
The Redbirds are a piece of NYC history. Don't rush to see it go.
When a certain underused station is open, people grumble that its an empty dump that should be closed immediately to speed up service. Bowery on the BMT and 75th Avenue on the Queens IND come to mind.
Of course, the minute it closes, railfan tours are arranged and it becomes part of beloved New York lore. People break the law and knowingly accept dangerous situations to visit a station they wouldn't have given a second glance to when it was open. The IRT City Hall station was like that - it was not well-used when it was open (600 fares a day in 1945) but now that its closed and hidden, its become the Shangri-La of closed stations.
--Mark
Graffiti was a part of NYC history too.
-Mark
I've seen the posters in the NYC subway on this topic in the past few years. I think one shows Queens Village streets under water in the August 1954 storm and the Fulton Fish Market at the foot of Fulton Street in lower Manhattan under water in the November 1950 storm.
Example:
F: This is: 51st Street.
M: Transfer is available to the E, and, F, trains.
[Ding!]
C: [garbled]
----
F: This is: Bleecker Street.
M: Transfer is available to the: B, D, F, and, Q, trains.
[Ding!]
C: [garbled]
I guess it'd lose points for not keeping the messages up-to-date.
"NEXT stop is SOOOMMMMMEEEEERRRRTTTOON!"
I always thought it was great. Replacing them with a computer isn't going to be much of a positive.
I don't know, but whatever it is, the computer's crystal-clear messages sound better than the Conductor's garbled message.
When do the new cars come anyway?
Key word -- immediate. I think they still don't know how deep their problems may be.
CG
This is a remake of Perils of Pauline. Perhaps, the EU may demand contract renegotiation as a price for not liquidating the rail car business. :-) Anything is still possible.
That is a possibility certainly. And we would be back to Kawasaki and Bombardier.
There are other possible bidders: Breda, Siemens, even Toshiba has a railcar unit (I think). Not precerted by MTA, but we're talking a tight situation...I hope it doesn't come to that.
Anything is indeed still possible. Experience of thirty years of UK membership of the EU suggests that France always gets away with whatever it wants to do, whatever the EU rules may say.
How many divisions has the President of the European Commission? (8-)
TOOOOO LONGGGGG!
N Bwy
The exception is Forest Hills terminal where between 9 PM and 11:50 PM weekdays, three lines use two relay tracks (G, R and V). Last weekend the E and F were running local in Queens so the G was forced to cut back at Court Square and the R at Whitehall (why not 57/7 instead?), because they will conflict.
Interesting cause and effect you have there. The G and R were cut back from QueensBlvd for track work south of Queens Plaza, forcing the E and F to run local.
Since E's and F's were running local because of the Roosevelt Ave/JH platform work, having R's and G's on the same track would violate two rules:
1. Exceeded the maximum 18 tph on each track used during a G.O.
AND
2. Would also violate the rule I mentioned earlier about lines that are at terminal station (hence G and R trains), sharing the same track as lines that are not at a terminal station and need to pass through (hence the E and F trains that are forced to use the local track.)
That happens at Bowling Green every day.
Same pattern for the 1/9 and 6 lines.
However, the public are forbidden from riding the South Ferry Inner Loop as it is not revenue trackage. This has the theoretical implication that the 5 train goes out of revenue service at Bowling Green.
How do you explain Broad Street/Nassau then?
Frequently an E or F will be brought in on the local track and R or V on the express track at Continental (both for the same reason: a relay taking too long to move out). This is usually during the AM rush, but I've seen it done later.
(N) 57/7 - Bway Exp - 4 Exp - Sea Beach - 86
(Q) PP - Brighton Lcl - BB
That only justifies a normal service pattern, not one in which Brighton Line trains can't reach Manhattan.
A normal Saturday service has:
(N) 8tph Pacific - 86
(Q) 8tph 57/7 - Brighton Beach
Aside from the fact that both lines have the same amount of service, hardly indicating a large disparity in weekend ridership, the G/O diverts the 8tph on the Q to Pacific St. Now, it is really an obvious step when you have 8tph in each direction at the same station trying to terminate to run a through service.
I could see the Manhattan portion of the Q run all the way to 86th st on the Sea Beach as an easier means
By that logic, R and W trains should also be signed as Q trains as they will also get riders to Pacific Street. If none of them are signed as Q trains, Brighton Line riders (of whom you say there are so many) will be spread more evenly between the other lines. What might be best would be for all N, R and W trains to have notices stuck in the windows with a large circle-Q and the words "Transfer at Pacific Street" and notices at station entrances and platforms reading "No Q - use NRW Lines to Pacific Street for Shuttle Bus" - and I don't mean pokey notepaper notices, I mean huge flipcharts.
"Today there is no Q train service from this station. For stations Atlantic Avenue through Brighton Beach, please ride the N train to Pacific Street for a shuttle bus connection."
If there were two tracks open through Stillwell, Q trains could run down the Sea Beach to 86th Street and then up the back to Brighton Beach, making all stops from there to Prospect Park.
People in Manhattan bound for Astoria will take the N and wonder why they're kicked off early.
People in Manhattan bound for local stops will take the N.
Express freaks in Manhattan will refuse to get on the N, waiting instead for the Q. (They might get on a W, which will go local after all.)
This express freak resents that!
</joke>
Can be solved with announcements on the platform and N.
If the passengers don't listen - their stupidity and problem.
>People in Manhattan bound for Astoria will take the N and wonder why they're kicked off early.
I don't see a problem with it. The GO-flyer can be posted in the trains, so people have chance to read them on-board. They should aslo
realize, that this is a service replacing temporary an other one, cos
there are track works.
>People in Manhattan bound for local stops will take the N.
Is the diamond-N removed from roll signs? The map says diamonds a special
express service, so it can be used for the extended N.
Indeed, the N will have to be cut back.
For another 3 weekends coming up. Not good to take the N on weekends.
So the only option is a battery run, but you'd only be skipping two stations, and those are busy stations.
Remember the IND idea -- the big express runs are OUTSIDE the CBD, north of 59th Street, in Queens Boulevard, or on Fulton Street (the latter not as express as I would like). In the CBD, there are few local only stations.
What rule is this?
Running expresses and locals on the same track is kind of difficult if the headways are short. It works on the LIRR but the headways there are lots longer. Basically the express starts lots later than the local, giving the local time to clear the tracks before the express almost catches up to it. But with two-minute headways, the "expresses" would only back up behind the locals on the same track. South of 34th St, the express tracks are more or less closed except for the Grand St shuttle.
It actually took 27 years for the 6th Ave. express tracks to open from the time the line itself first opened in December of 1940.
I remember riding the IRT during the 1970's when it was very rare to find a train of "matching" cars - and I'm not talking about all the cars having the same "R-" numbers, as I was not aware of such things back then - but just cars all painted the same color (if you could see it under the graffiti!) and with the same basic roof profile and door design, etc. It seems like these days I never see any trains on the NYC Subway that, aesthetically at least, contain "mixed" styles of cars.
On PATH, however, it is extremely rare to find a train of all matching cars. In the past 5 years of riding PATH with at least reasonable frequency, I think I've only seen 5 or 6 trains consisiting of all PA-1-2-3 cars, and NEVER one of all PA-4 cars. (For those unfamiliar with PATH, the PA-1-2-3 cars are all very similar, featuring "white" exteriors with 2 doors per side and identical end designs. The PA-4 cars have 3 doors per side with stainless steel exteriors and a somewhat different end design from the PA-1-2-3.)
It also seems like a PA-4 is much more likely to be the lead/end car in a mixed train, perhaps because these cars are somewhat newer than the others. Personally, I love it when I get a train with a PA-1-2-3 car in the lead because the railfan seat has an extra 1/2 seat next to it, so you get to watch the track AND have extra elbow room! I'll be very sorry to see these cars retired, as has been recently announced. Though they may be 30 years old, to me they still seem to be in excellent condition and are a hulluva lot of fun to ride, especially when zip along at 55 MPH on the JSQ-Harrison run!
One other question: How long does a given train consist usually "last"? i.e. How often are the cars rearranged into new trains and what are some of the reasons that this might done?
Thanks for the info!
John
Though they may be 30 years old, to me they still seem to be in excellent condition and are a hulluva lot of fun to ride, especially when zip along at 55 MPH on the JSQ-Harrison run!
I've clocked PATH trains on that run (with my GPS unit) in excess of 60MPH :)
R-32.
As for the IRT cars, those varying roof styles were because of r-12/14,15,21 and 22's being concatenated into the same train - mostly on the west side. The door spacing was different on the 12/14's and 15's from that of the rest of the then fleet; i.e. the doors weren't staggered like the 17's. Plus another important note: the R-12/14's and 15's (there were only 100,150 and 100 cars respectively among them), being they made for the Flushing fleet, were a minority fleet (just like the steinway cars before them). So in '63 when the current redbirds began arriving, they were displaced to the mainline IRT, and were assimilated with the rest of the larger herd. It is interesting to note that the r-12/14's were the last cars with outside door controls, so they had to prevent them from being put in the middle of the train facing a car without these controls.
R-32.
John
R-32.
As to your question about trailers on the NY side, there are none; though there are trailer trucks, r-1 style on the 'belly' cars of r-142 sets. I don't know about the 143's though. Of course NY had trailer cars in the distant past on just about all the pre- 'R' types. You name it: A/B Standards, Low-v's, Steinways, Q-units. Not to mention almost anything on the els. Although skip the Triplex 'D' types (technically) , and I'm not sure about the multisection units.
R-32.
Anyone have the real info on which PATH cars are the trailers?
Thanks,
John
P.S. I got to ride PATH for FREE on Saturday! They were apparently doing some pretty heavy track work because they had only the westbound track operating between JSQ and Newark. Since there is no fare control at the westbound Harrison station (PATH essentially charges 1/2 fare for commuters between Newark and Harison - free westbound and regular fare eastbound), they had no choice but let everyone ride for free. The service was very delayed though. I think they only had 1 train operating, so I had to wait over 1/2 hour! Ah, well it was FREE though!
Anyone else ever get a (legitimate) free transit ride? How and where and when did it happen?
John
Many words lose their orginal meaning as time moves on. Look at the word "Trolley". Some agencies think thats the 30 foot long bus that has the look of an old streetcar and they reported it that way in the METRO magazine top 100 fleets.
Trolley is British for shopping cart.
To John C. I would carefully remind you that the PA's have motor-axles (the same basic principle of modern diesel electric locos) . Therefore, you're not very likely to eyeball the motors from the outside. Frankly, I'd be surprised if you could see any motors at all with all that framing around it. Certainly with SMEE trucks, you can't see the motors at all!
As for trailer cars in general, They still need third rail shoes for the lights and compressors. Europe not withstanding, that would be a given.
R-32.
The 100-200 series are trailers WITH motors.
PATH does not have any motorless trailers.
Are there any SubTalkers who actually work for PATH that might be able to resolve this question with some degree of certainty?
One other question that I just thought of while writing this: Did any of the trailers that used to run on NYC subway lines in the pre-war days have 3rd rail shoes to power the lights, doors, etc. or were they just like regular passenger rail cars, drawing power from adjacent cars? My guess would be the latter, as is the case on many European tram lines that run 2 or 3 car trains conisiting of a motor car with pantograph pulling one or two trailers with no pantographs.
Thanks to all participants for an interesting discussion!
John
The construction of a new building and the renovation of the entire subway complex are done by seperate contracts (I think). Also the entire complex will be ADA compliant.
By the way, renovation is making big progress. The bus terminal building is at least halfway done with its steel skeleton and roof both in place. Roosevelt Av (IND) has some spraypaint markings on the wall, and half of the platforms on both sides have been smoothed out. Work is going to take a while since Roosevelt is so busy.
Anyway, whatever ones opinion of the reasons are, you must agree that Airtrain put the final nail in the coffin.
P.S. If any old LIRR ROW should be reactivated the Central Branch would be the priority. Imagine how much usage there would be for a line going through East Meadow and Levittown and servicing the Nassau County University Medical Center and the jail. But that ain't going to ever happen either.
But that line would mainly impact the towns where the stations would be. It seems that most of the traffic on 347 is local, going to the shopping centers and surrounding residential areas. Some type of "really progressive" BRT scheme might be a better fit. Especially in that area, the vehicles used would have to be something that passing ladies on their way to stores might think to themselves, "That's a really nice looking bus". And it would have to be on a really good schedule also, so they could think "Hmm, and I just saw one a few minutes ago.". So you're talking a level of service on the lines of every 15 minutes. If it's every hour, forget it.
It will be expensive.
This is a long sordid story and you really should look for it in the archives.
As ESA approaces completion, there will be sufficient Manhattan-bound main-line track capacity to support another LIRR branch. So if construction on the Rockaway ROW began in, say 2005-6, you could have rail service there.
But the issues include ROW problems, major NIMBY with lots of heavy-weight political support, environmental cleanup issues with the old ROW, legal costs of encroachment issues, and places where the ROW is very close to houses (so you'd want the trains underground, maybe with the tracks stacked, rather than side by side).
I figure at least $1 billion to do it. No money in the Capital Plan.
There are more immediate projects going on now, and Amtrak needs new tunnels under the Hudson more than LIRR needs the Rockaway branch.
One item of the "sordid past" of non-use (post-June 8, 1962) that stand out in my mind is a proposal in August 1974 to re-activate and use the Branch for rapid transit from midtown Manhattan (Penn Station) to JFK Airport. It died from environmental concerns about the harm it would do to Forest Park.
In the case of the Grand Central, built before there was a park. The impact on the Corona ash dump would have been negligible.
Forest Park is built on the naturally wooded hills of the glacial moraine.
It makes as much (if not more) sense as adding an extra track to the Main Line, but I can't envision a railroad line through Eisenhower Park unless it were perhaps a subway.
Oh, you mean Salisbury Park? (heheheheheeeee.....)
Oh yeah, I can envision a nice elevated line there: What an interesting obsticle that would make on the Golf Course.
(Damn.... NIMBY Golfers, what in the world will they think of next!)
BTW: Do you remember when you needed a PASS to enter that park. There were kiosks at every enterence, to make sure that city folks didn't get in on the county dime.
Elias
It wasn't stupid for the LIRR to abandon it. By June of 1962, ridership was abysmal because of the Rockaway Line (LIRR) becoming a shuttle to Ozone Park after NYCTA takeover of everything south.
The financial health of the LIRR was also abysmal which is why they couldn't reopen it. NY State take over with the MCTA and later MTA was their saving grace.
The intentions were for the City abnd NYCTA to recapture the line north of Liberty Junction for subway use, but as always, money was a problem.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had already started taken picture, but I just uploaded them on yahoo, so I am just trying to post one or two here.
Wish me luck. Let me know what you think.
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/farrockawayatrain
That should do it. I will be adding more pictures later on.
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/farrockawayatrain
That should help.
As for your information, thanks. I really needed it and I will be using it for my pictures as well.
http://photos.yahoo.com/farrockawayatrain
Thank you.
thanks again
john
thanks again
john
http://photos.yahoo.com/farrockawayatrain
Thank you.
Fulton St & New Jersey Ave2
Seeing this part of the El from the train has always made me curious, but seeing it from the ground makes me even more curious...what on earth was the purpose of constructing the El like this, short and double-stacked? Why didn't they just build a single, taller cross-beam, like on other El structures?
I also like your photos because they are from street level, and show the construction of the el supporting structure. This enables a comparison of light and heavy el construction (pre- and post- Dual Contracts).
Thanks again.
In addition to a present-day image taken from the same location, for comparison, I would also like to see an image of the former Manhattan Junction (of the Broadway-Jamaica and Fulton els) from as close to the same viewpoint as possible.
Enjoy.
At the time, the narrator eluded to some sort of consideration that with current car congestion, rail might have been a better way to go.
This weekend I saw a Discovery marvel special on the Highway, which has been rebuilt, next to the former railroad/highway route.
Question, since the original is now abandoned, does any know if Florida-Chad the thought-is studying using, or rebuilding any rail service?
The Florida Overland Express(high speed rail) doesn't have any plans on it's maps to run to key west. Plus the southernmost functioning railroad terminus is now Homestead, FL.
Otherwise, for some reason, I've never thought about this. Most of the structure still exists, was converted to the weridest looking car bridge probably in existance. I can't see why it's not doable if you used really cheap construction(wood ties, not much signaling, 90lb or less steel, etc).
I'm still waiting for all these boats that are supposed to get me from Tampa to Key West in under 3 hours, it was supposed to be in business by now...
That would be via transporter on board the USS Enterprise-NCC 1701. You say under 3 hours, I say under 3 seconds.
Jimmy ;)
For those of you who missed the subway weekend at Branford here is your chance to make up for it. We are having a railfan weekend Oct 18th and 19th.
There is even a rumor that the Northshore car might come into the daylight among many other cars that normally do not show there colors outside of there barns. There is also going to be a Model railroad show at the same time at Branford. So there should be a good time to be had by all. Who knows 1689 might even make a guest appearance.
Andy B
The directions are in the BERA website and they tell you how to catch the F bus (on Sundays, it's the FG bus, a combo of Routes F and G.). The bus leaves from State and Chapel Sts, about 10 minutes from the RR station.
Andy
Jimmy
By the way, my wife rejected my following name proposals:Sea Beach RosenWest End RosenBushwick Aberdeen Rosen
Sea Beach Rosen
West End Rosen
Bushwick Aberdeen Rosen
But she was OK with Farm River Rosen? :)
Steve Loitsch
My father built an AB standard out of cardboard, with a full interior. It's not really to scale though - I guess I'll just call it "larger than O." Even has interior lights! I'll have it with me, too.
--Mark
And don't think for a minute that because your wife will be outnumbered genderwise three-to-one the family dynamic will change. My wife is outnumbered two-to-one, and my mother was outnumbered four-to-one. You can guess who the boss was in both cases!
--Mark
All kidding aside, may he be born healthy and be a great "little brother" to his "big brother" Arthur.
Jimmy
Seriously, congratulations and Mazel Tov!
Some other suggestions:
Pelham Rosen
Lenox Rosen
Rosen Van Cortlandt (too bad you ain't Dutch)
Euclid Rosen
241st Street Rosen
As for R40S/M running on the W, it more frequently happens on the weekends, when there is no Diamond Q service and reduced N service.
They've also been running on the W on weekends since it started running local a year ago.
Weekend sightings on the W and circle-Q are exceedlingly rare. Good find, Pig; I'm sorry I wasn't there to ride the DeKalb bypass at the railfan window.
wayne
And let's not forget the frequent sightings of Amtrak train whizzing by.
Excellent news for all subway photographers. I'm glad somebody knows how to read the rule.
It was rediculous to get a ticket in the first place. If anyone should receive a ticket and a hefty fine, it's the TA for allowing some of the subway cars (R40, R42, R44, R68 and R68A) to have all of that grafitti and scrachitti all over their windows.
People have been talking about this "window replacement" for a couple of years now. When is it going to happen?
They are replacing the windows on the different classes cars. For the last two months and even just this week I was on numerous J Trains (R42)and the entire train had new, unscratched windows. It takes time to get to them all, but they are starting. Amazingly, I have been able to take railfan window shots out the front/back of trains for the first time in years!
That's the best news I've heard this hour! Thanks!
Section 1050.9 paragraph C: Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
The full rules of conduct document can be found here.
--Mark
Last week I reported to an officer after I saw a man walk into a tunnel (he was not wearing the official NYCT vest) and the officer saw him get out of the tunnel and after a small resistance by the trespasser, he was arrested. Before 9/11, if a man walked into a tunnel, people might think he was relieving himself of just a bum sleeping. Now after 9/11 you don't who what a person would do if he or she trespasses into a subway tunnel.
Because it is the TA who just won a court victory to retain the fare increase that we are paying so dearly for.
R-32.
Koi
You should've replied: "You better not say that in front of the judge, unless you like cooling your arse in the pokey, for contempt of court."
A very small percentage of these jerky officers think they have a quota and will write tickets for any stupid nonsense.
R-32.
The Westchester Yard (Home of the 142a.)
The Concourse Yard (They have a lot of different rolling stock there, Redbirds, 62's, 68's, 142's, and 142a's.)
The Unionport Yard (Home of the 142.)
239th street Yard (They also store exclusively 142's, not as big as Unionport however.)
The Livonia Yard (They store 62's, 62a's, 142's, and 142a's.)
I think the Southern terminal was Canal Street, but what was the Northern Terminak.
On the same topic, when the KK started running on 6th avenue, what was the Northern terminal. The"Southern" terminal actually was 57th Street. A bit unusual.
Yes, a bit "unusual", and inconsistent, especially if 57th St. and 6th Avenue Manhattan is geographically north of 168th Street and Jamaica Avenue.
I will leave it to other SubTalkers to explain this standard railroad convention of description.
When it was the KK, the northern terminal was 168th Jamaica and was the other half of the Skip-Stop service.
wayne
You could also throw in the fact that old habits die hard. People got off at Essex and changed for the F.
Now I can see that for the first week or so, but I find it hard to believe after that. You would have to be incredibly stupid to get off of a KK at Essex and take the F.
Going the other way isn't as much a problem since they both go towards Manhattan and I'm close enough to either line. My guess though is that the Q will be less crowded as everyone rushes to the Express.
Besides, Marcy is a pretty busy station (I'm not looking at the numbers, but IIRC it's the second or third busiest station on the entire Eastern Division aside from transfer points). Marcy should have more service than the other stations on the line.
Broadway-Brooklyn Local
Mon-Fri PM rush hours
Canal St (Centre) - Crescent St. (Jamaica Line) or Rockaway Pkwy. (Canarsie Line)
-- Ed Sachs
Until the advent of the morning skip-stop service, which originated from 168th Street, the line terminated at various eastern terminals all on the same day. In some runs ended at Rockaway Parkway, some went to Crescent Street, some ended at Atlantic Avenue or Eastern Parkway.
It was, but 111 was on the BMT Standard roll signs, at least indicating that they thought of it as a short line destination.
Jamaica Line service was extended from Greenwood Ave. 111 St. to Jamaica Cliffside Ave (168 St.) July 3, 1918. Until November of that year, the only steel cars operating past East New York Loop were evening Broadway Short Line trains to Atlantic Avenue, at which time they terminated at Rockaway Parkway.
However, initial operation of the full Jamaica Line had Lex trains going to 168 Street and Broadway trains to 111. I'm not sure if steel cars operated the latter service, but steel cars didn't reach all the way to 168 until 1923.
That's interesting. So they considered the Lexington El service more important than the Broadway El service? Broadway was already connected to the WillyB at that time, so why would they short end the through Manhattan service at 111th St, which I assume more people would be using, but run the Lex service all the way to 168th?
That's odd, since the connection to the Williamsburgh Bridge was already in place and the Broadway el's subway rebuild had been completed in 1916.
Where did you hear that steel cars didn't operate to/from 168th until 1923?
The primary source (BMT company document I transcribed 40 years ago) says "Subway trains (steel cars) commenced operating Chambers to Jamaica 1201 am, April 1, 1923."
This does not preclude earlier operation to 168, but it has no notation on such earlier operation.
And the two secondary sources (others' usually dependable researches):
One says: "04/01/23 Extended service all times to 168th St, most service with steel cars", Same source also notes Lex trains cut back from 168 same date.
But the other secondary source has a date of 8/1/1920 for the first steel cars Chambers Street to 168. I would say this is the likely earliest date.
Remember that (1) in 1920 the Lex was probably still considered the more important line, with its access to downtown Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn and (2) a third or more of the BRT Standard fleet had yet to be put in service, though all of the Broadway subway was in operation.
AM rush hours Jamaica-168 St to Canal Street only (Skip stop 168-Eastern Pkwy).
PM rush hours Canal Street to Crescent Street or Atlantic Ave OR Rockaway Parkway Canarsie
All other times: Jamaica-168 St to Broad Street.
Tony Leong
PM rush hours Canal Street to Crescent Street or Atlantic Ave OR Rockaway Parkway Canarsie
All other times: Jamaica-168 St to Broad Street.
Tony Leong
Tony. The TA route descriptions of the #14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local were grossly oversimplified. About the only consistentcy about the service was that Canal Street terminus in Manhattan. During the rush hours trains ran to and or from the following destinations; 168 Street-Jamiaca (AM only),111 Street-Jamaica Avenue (AM only), Crescent Street (PM only), Eastern Parkway, Atlantic Avenue, Rockaway Parkway and Metropolitan Avenue-Ridgewood (PM only).
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Jimmy
R-32.
I too remembered subway cars so heavily graffiti'd that you couldn't tell what station you were pulling into until the doors(or sometimes only one door)opened. I remember subway car interiors almost completely covered in marker graffiti so that you almost couldn't see the straight lines and right angles of walls and ceilings meeting. It was like being inside one big disgusting irregular blob - like one big vomit, or being inside the bowel of some huge diseased animal.
I also remember graffiti'd trains pulling into stations, and long waits after which only one of the two doors per frame would open. There were also early 80's (1980-83) evening rush hour M trains bound for Metropolitan Avenue where the doors would open and close as many as a dozen times due to rowdy kids blocking them just to annoy people.
Below is the link to the news footage which showed the incident via amateur footage. The story is 10 minutes into the newscast.
Video Footage of Near Disaster, Click on Le Journal de 20h
The same France 2 newscast (with English subtitles) will also be shown in New York City on WNYE-TV Channel 25 at 7 PM, and throughout the US on The International Channel (Channel 500 on Time Warner Cable-NYC) at 9 PM Eastern Time. Again, the footage is 10 minutes into the newscast.
I've never seen anything like this.
How in the hell do you keep operating at full speed with hundreds of people on the tracks in front of you?!?!?!?!?
Just a smidge. Enough to get by (ummhmm).
What does the stalled train's conductor have to say for himself/herself? (rhetorical question)
FYI, all RER/Banlieue trains are OPTO. There aren't any conductors on board.
As you should know, these are the sequence of events for the announcements on the R142A's on the (6):
-When approaching station, female voice announces the name of the station, and then the male voice, the same one that does the Stand Clear message, announces what transfers are available. (These messages are outdated, though.)
-When the doors open, the female voice announces where this train is going, and what the next stop is. This is played on both the interior and exterior speakers.
-Male voice does Stand Clear, doors close, train leaves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is what I heard while on a Pelham Bay Park-bound (6) at around 11:30:
-When pulling into station, female voice identifies station, but then ANOTHER female voice announced the transfers!
-After the doors opened, the train identification announcement played through the exterior speakers only, and then the next stop announcement played through the interior speakers only. (This makes more sense, though.)
-Normal Stand Clear announcement; train leaves.
What the heck's going on???
They're buggy. Look at the exterior signs on any northbound weekday 6 (with the new annoucements) and you'll see why.
Presumably this is why only a few 6 trains have them.
What happens to the signs? And why would that be connected to the announcements? And why only northbound?
There is no such thing, the proper designation is "Parkchester" for the neighborhood.
Northbound Bronx expresses are signed as Lexington Avenue expresses and Bronx locals. Whoops!
=p
Thanks...
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Take the 2 or 3 to Fulton and then the 4 or 5 up to Brooklyn Bridge. You can also take the Q, R, or W from 34th and 6th to Canal and then change for the J or 6.
Chuck Greene
I seem to rememebr that was my mistake in June.
Also, check out the GO list before setting out just in case something else is going on.
Koi
Chuck Greene
Jaypolansky.com
Jay
But that's just the point - the new high-speed Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) from the Chunnel to St Pancras *is* overhead-wire AC electrified. As noted in another thread a few days ago, the first part of the CTRL from the Chunnel to the edge of London has just been officially opened. For the next few years, low-speed third-rail tracks will still be used from the edge of London (Fawkham Junction, to be precise) to London Waterloo. But when phase 2 of the new line from Fawkham Jcn across the Thames to Stratford and then St Pancras opens - scheduled 2007 - then there will be a through overhead-wire electrified line. So maybe other TGV rolling stock from continent will be able to reach London then. Whether any through trians from (say) Italy or Germany actually do run through will be a marketing decision, I guess. They might be hard to sell against low-cost airlines, for the longer distances involved. Eurostar fares aren't cheap.
The other issue - apart from the electrification style - would have been the loading gauge, which is smaller in the UK than on the continent, and therefore also required special rolling stock for the Eurostars, to negotiate the old line to London. The brand-new line gets over that problem too.
The thing I want to know is whether the Windsor Lines will get the North Station back once Eurostar buggers off to North London.
Then the only time when Waterloo would be hectic would be during the Royal Ascot.
They might be hard to sell against low-cost airlines, for the longer distances involved.
They would be fairly easy to market, if:
- They removed the poncy check-in time and the delay and hassle of their airport-style security. It's a train, goddammit. Put it into Platform 7 at Waterloo by "mistake" and have a cross-platform transfer to the Hampton Court local ;-)
- The trains left in the evening, arriving the following morning.
- Passport checks were conducted on the train only.
- You could walk into the ticket office at any station in the UK and buy a Saver Return on the day of travelling.
- They reduced their fares by 33% or so.
Simon
Swindon UK
Nah, let's go for style... 50021 Rodney and some GWR compartment stock from the Birmingham Railway Museum!
Simon
Swindon UK
Those won't run in the Tunnel, the diesel fumes will choke everybody in the non-AC Mk.I stock. If you retrofit a pantograf to class 52 (geez, an interesting sight I must say) then it'll be a great trip. Let's rip the electrical hardware out of a class 82 and fit it onto a class 52! Plus the mercury-arc rectifier, and I guess you'll need new trucks too, unless we put in a big-ass motor and have an 'electric-hydraulic' transmission.
AEM7
Could stick some powerful Swiss Electric loco on the back of the train at Sandling and take it off at Fréthun.
Hang on a moment - haven't diesel and steam trains run through the Severn Tunnel for years? What makes the Chunnel so specially inept?
Isn't there a factor of 5 or more difference in length?
Also, trains per hour make a difference. You can run a small number of diesel tph through a long tunnel, but not a large number.
Eurostar currently runs 1½tph, IINM. I wouldn't be surprised if five times as many trains ran between London/Bristol and South Wales via the Severn Tunnel.
While technically similar to the TGV, the Eurostars have necessitated differences. For one the cars (pronounced carriages in the old world) are shorter because of the tighter clearances prevalent in Great Britain (this is why the ends of those cars are tapered). There's a platform height issue being that the platforms in France are lower. Those two are the main issues; this is to say nothing of the various voltages, DC or AC across Europe.
It there was a business case for direct London-Rome (or whatever) services, presumably more Chunnel-compliant trains could be built. Personally, I'm still skeptical about the business case in the era of low-cost airlines. The post-9/11 revulsion against flying hasn't happened in Europe, the low-cost airlines are growing, and beyond (say) about 400 miles they have a time advantage even over high-speed trains.
The market would probably be there for a London St Pancras - Roma Ostiense sleeper with a Motorail portion being added at Ebbsfleet and removed at Roma Tuscolana.
Daytime trains - forget it.
MOTORAIL PORTION!!! Spoken like a true BR oldhead.
AEM7
What's wrong with a Motorail Portion? You wouldn't want to drive to Italy / the South of France / Cornwall, but you might want your car there.
Nothing. I was commenting on the old-timey tone.
BTW: Great Western (TOC) tried to start Motorail to Cornwall again. It fell flat on its face. AEM7
They must have been charging too much. The A38 and A30 West of Exeter are not a fun drive - plus on Bank Holiday Weekends, the M5 from Bristol to Exeter gets all jammed up too.
No. Two reasons: (1) it actually costs a lot to provide a Motorail service -- a wagon that will hold six cars could have held 24 sleeper passengers, or 36 first class passengers, or 52 standard class passengers. (2) Motorail only books up on some weekends, so during weekdays they were either hauling air or having equipment sit idle, both of which are very expensive. AEM7
Simon
Swindon UK
True.
However there is currently an over-supply of Eurostars and an under-supply of their TGV cousins. Presently there are three sets on loan to GNER in England, three being used by SNCF on internal French services and several others (including the one that just set the UK speed record) that have never been used in revenue service.
And Eurostars can go more or less anywhere a TGV can go. So run the long distance trains using those Eurostars.
Instead, they'll create a new problem of the trains from East Kent to London needing to be able to use OHLE as well as 3rd Rail. Seeing as they've already got this facility on Eurostar trains, it would have made a lot more sense to electrify CTRL with 3rd Rail.
Here's a revolutionary idea:
Extend 3rd rail to the Gare du Nord!
Some of the new rolling stock on the Kent lines *does* have pantographs as well as third-rail shoes. Maybe they thought ahead.
Oh gox... you'd've thought they'd've realised that was a bad idea - Farringdon anyone?
Wouldn't it be far simpler to dual-electrify the line from St Pancras to Ashford (Kent) - oh, and that's another thing, please please please Connex drop the International bit - it's annoying.
R-32.
- more susceptible to weather damage
- pantographs have more problems than third rail shoes in coping with gaps (remember this incident that closed all 4 tracks of the Midland Main Line)
- not only can pantographs bring down catenary, they can also fly off locos if not lowered before a gap
- if OHLE fails, the line is blocked to all trains, not just electrics
- OHLE suffers from tension problems due to the lack of gaps and fluctuating temperatures
- potential difference and current are usually much higher and are therefore more likely to kill
- and least seriously, it's simply ugly
Higher potential difference means lower current and vice versa, for a given amount of power to be delivered (power = p.d. x current)
How can something be more likely to kill than 600v D.C.? 600 volts is lethal. If you are dead you are dead, whether it is 600 volts or 25,000. And you are more like to fall off the platform on to a third rail than you are to leap 15 feet into the air by mistake, and grab on to a catenary wire.
Catenary gets broken in storms and lies on the wet ground. In such a case 25,000 volts is more likely to kill you if you approach it without touching it than 600 volts. However, I agree that overall deaths from 3rd rail are probably much higher, because usually the catenary stays up out of harm's way.
Overhead usually kills only people being silly. 3rd rail (Southern style) is more likely to kill innocent bystanders. In one particularly stupid piece of stupidity years ago, our train arrived at a platform at London Bridge which already had a train in it. Our cariage therefore had no platform, and as it was a 4EPG, we were stuck there. Eventually, someone noticed and came to help us climb down. Of course, there just happened to be some third rail there, and of course my mother almost happened to step on it. It probably would have killed all three of us.
It never ceases to amaze me how ineptly operations are run at London Bridge.
R-32.
R-32.
From a technical standpoint, I like catenary and AC traction. However, sentimentally, my heart is with the third rail; being a subway child and all.
R-32.
And long may those days last.
R-32.
Don't see why. Badgers are a common pest and a carrier of consumption. Let 'em fry!
No, and I firmly believe that’s why things were built quickly.
That's the way it should be. Send round the heavies to any whingy environmentalist prats!
It is also the only light rail system in the UK that can be described as an unmitigated success.
I wish...
"The 1049 Thameslink service to Brighton has today been cancelled. This is due to a stalled train at Farringdon."
Or to be precise, underpowered by thrid rail power (8-(
New rolling stock in Kent is causing problems because, on account of its having more powerful motors, a/c and power doors, it takes too much power and the transmission lines/substations taking power to the third rail need to be beefed up to cope.
At least that's how they're spinning it. I wouldn't put it past any of these privatised companies to try and run 750V DC stock on 600V DC lines then blame the lines for it.
Switzerland haves a smaller pantographs than Germany and Austria.
If a train is build to handle the different power systems, haves
the needed pantographs and train safety systems (automatic train stop) or
cab signaling) it would be no problem to run a trains all acroos Europe.
Where is Lille, Europe? When I was there a few weeks ago, in spite of the EU, Europe was still divided into countries.
Tom
Not Lille, Europe - it's Lille Europe, the name of one of the two passenger stations in Lille (and it's a totally vile station - Lille Flandres is much nicer). It's no different from New York Penn, other than the fact that Lille is in Europe (and incidentally is also in Flanders), whereas New York is not in Pennsylvania.
There are certainly trains that run through from Rome (Tuscolana) (an irritatingly difficult station to get to - a lot of trains run non-stop between Termini and Ostiense) to Ostend - ie through Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France, Luxembourg (I think) and Belgium.
Once it's on the Continent, a diesel train could get anywhere.
Hmmmm...
"The train now standing at Platform 19 is the 1830 to Istanbul Sirkeci. Calling at Ashford International, Lille Europe, Bruxelles Midi, Liège Guillemins, Luxembourg, Wiesbaden, Mainz, Frankfurt am Main, Würzburg, München Hbf, Salzburg, Linz, Wien Westbahnhof, Budapest Deli, Beograd, Sofia, Plovdiv, Edirne, and Istanbul Sirkeci."
PS: Fastest from Frankfurt to Wien via Passau (Donau valley)
:-)
Through Wasserbillig, Trier and Koblenz.
but skip Wiesbaden and if the new high-speed line Cologne-F is used
I didn't know about that line!
skip also Mainz
It's only there because I misread the map!
PS: Fastest from Frankfurt to Wien via Passau (Donau valley)
But München is an important city. I don't know which München station (Hbf or Ostbf) is more use for Frankfurt a.M. to Wien Westbf - I seem to remember it doesn't matter much as they're connected by a couple of tangential lines through the suburbs.
>>skip also Mainz
>It's only there because I misread the map!
If you running a train from Koblenz to Frankfurt, Mainz is on the way
and the train should stop there (also in Koblenz).
You didn't misread the map referring to Mainz!
Sounds like I should buy a better map!
Don't know what map you have. Can you make a scan?
In my younger days, I once spent a night (late 70’s) on Aachen/Aix La Chapelle station, and saw (I think) a Paris-Moscow train pass through, and have an engine change. The cars were everything from top-of-the-line wagons lits from SNCF, and similar from DB to some ancient rickety slam-door Polish and Soviet stock. Amazing!
John
Typical that the French would announce it as Aix-la-Chapelle.
Back in July, I got on a train out of Lille Flandres, where they made a perfect French announcement that it was going to Anvers. Then it pulled into Mouscron and it was suddenly going to Antwerpen. The translators seem to have been of limited talent though - on the departure boards at Lille Flandres, Gent Sint Pieter had been half translated to Gand Sint Pieter - I personally wished they had gone the whole hog and put Gand Saint-Pierre.
a Paris-Moscow train
Fun. Gauge changes and everything...
The cars were everything from top-of-the-line wagons lits from SNCF, and similar from DB to some ancient rickety slam-door Polish and Soviet stock. Amazing!
Depending on mood, I don't know if I'd've been more drawn to the French cars or to the Russky ones!
That's bad
The contract was won by US&S
That's good
They plan to replace the existing A-bomb proof Model-14 electro-pneumatic machines with a mircoprocessor based SSI.
That's bad, way bad
The new system plans to retain control from the local interlocking towers with supervisory control via a dispatcher.
That's good.
End result, I need to find a way to get up into JAY and/or HALL towers to observe and photograph the operation of their Model 14 machines, probably the largest and most complex active machines in the country, before they are taken OOS and the towers become like SS75 in New Haven.
But still, why not write to LIRR and ask permission for this? The worst they can say is "no," but maybe they'll be gracious and show you a good time.
It doesn't hurt to ask.
................?
That's good news.
Mike missed it.
That's bad news.
Phil pointed it out to Mike.
That's good news.
Mike didn't get the joke.
That's bad news.
I thought you hated anything European Mike. US&S has been owned by Ansalado Signal N.V., who's owned by Finmeccanica S.p.A.....
That's good news.
Mike missed it.
That's bad news.
Phil pointed it out to Mike.
That's good news.
Mike didn't get the joke.
That's bad news.
I thought you hated anything European Mike. US&S is owned by Ansalado Signal N.V., who's owned by Finmeccanica S.p.A.....
It's hard to say, but it looks like the car's number is 0 ("zero"). There's also an illustration of the car on the History page of the STE website (www.ste.df.gob.mx/historia/index.html) that implies it's a single-trucker. Does anyone know anything about this car? Has anyone who's been to Mexico City seen it?
Thanks...
Frank Hicks
...Not to mention a very modern and extensive subway system.
Mark
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
A subway map for a foreign city is honestly the last place that I would ever look for a NYC Subway photo pic.
There is nothing anywhere on the web that isn't vague and mentioning only the dates, and the previous demonstation that took place in 96/97.
I'm betting I'm asking for a long-shot here.
I did my last resort today, emailed a random address on the companies website, no word back yet(they probably deleted it). Maybe I'll email my congressman who's sponsoring it.
Over the next year, the objective of the Authority and COG is to prepare a draft Environmental Impact Statement and meet the requirements for the federal government to approve entering into Preliminary Engineering on the project. If that approval is secured in 2003, construction could start as early as 2006 with some service to the public beginning in 2009.
Better stick a #4 on the front of the train...
There should be a Subtalk campaign to rename whatever street the Terminal in Claremont will be on to "Stillwell Avenue". ;-)
There is a lot of potential NIMBY in some of those communities - will this plan survive it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
What do you mean by traditional cab? A cab whose controls consist of one handle for power and one handle for braking?
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I was on one of those; 62 MPH! It looked like one T/O was teaching another how to run that line the right way. Must have got his advice from this
Consist: Electric Locomotive #6, D type units 6112abc, and N1 or N2.
--Mark
--Mark
The railroad is replacing parts on old train cars instead of getting new cars altogether.
But is that idea sitting well with passengers?
Watch the story with News Channel 8's Leigh Frillici
"The cars are kind of old and some of them kind of smell."
What's wrong with the New Haven line? Ask any Metro North commuter they'll give you a list.
"The trains are dirty and they're old and the seats are kind of collapsed."
"Basically they're wearing out."
240 of the New Haven line trains are over 30 years old. That's old in train years.
On any given day 20 percent of the fleet is in repairs and commuters feel the pinch.
"There's not enough cars people are standing blocking dooorways."
So Connecticut's DOT is trying to breathe 10 more years of life into the trains with a 149 million dollar refurbishing project.
"All the electronics are being replaced all of the heating and airconditioning and ventilation systems the seats the floor all of that is being done."
Experts agree the older the fleet gets the more repairs they'll have to make and that could mean more time commuters are sidelined when trains break down.
"Some commuters say these trains are old enough they can't imagine getting another 10 years out of them."
"We need new cars they need to put lots more money in and they need to do it now because they're going to start to fall apart."
The Connecticut DOT agrees they can't bandaid these cars forever.
"Eventually we'll have to replace this equipment the question is when."
They are looking at plans to replace the old fleet of trains with 400 new ones. The plan is expensive - upwards of a billion dollars. It could be another 10 years before the system is completely overhauled.
"Would you like new trains? of course everyone would like new trains new is better than old."
"The Connecticut DOT is looking at putting new trains on the tracks but it's a billion dollar program whether they'll get the funding or not is up to lawmakers."
NJT retired the old Lackawanna MUs back in 1984
Those cars being rolling anachronisms, no AC, rickety suspensions, wicker seats, one of the first trains driven by Tom Edison, ad nauseam.
And SEPTA got rid of their Blueliners when? Doesn’t mean that commuters miss them…
We’re not going back to the NH Washboard MUs here. Rebuilding M2s thru M6s is equivalent to giving SEPTA Silverliners or NJT Arrows a rebuild…
That might be fine and dandy to us railfans who photograph, ride and delve in the historical angles of these cars. As daily commuters who paid big bucks for monthly tickets, the old cars were no fun at all. NJ Transit just had to woo the commuters out of their cars with something better. The same goes for the influx of M-7's sending the beat up M-1's south of the border.
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard rumors of the latter to that affect, but you know how we can trust a rumor. The M-1's were and are being shipped on flat cars. The only thing being stripped from the cars are the radios and speed controls, Otherwise, they are going down there intact. Last Saturday when passing Holban yard, there had to be about a dozen of them there, just itching to head south. So, let's wait and see.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the NH should get the R-32s when the TA is done with them :)
--Mark
Maybe the commuters are complaining about the fare hikes BECAUSE of the current condition of the M-2 fleet. They were right about the cars being filthy, car wash at New Haven doesn't work ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Jimmy
Why not? There was an ERA fantrip in the late 60's with ex-Pennsy MP-54's in Penn Central green on a fantrip in New Haven RR territory, which incidentally ran over the Hell Gate Bridge.
Bill "Newkirk"
As far as the "L", they normally have two R42s running, mostly during rush hours and evenings although I don't know if it is supposed to be "official" or it just happens.
No, sorry, it was an, uh, accidental discharge. I was using a message as a test bed to see how various HTML code is accepted by Subtalk, and hit the Enter key by mistake. I wasn't posing a message there.
The last time I saw an R42 on the "L" was on August 14th while driving on Atlantic Ave. The train was heading nb, approaching the station.
So I guess carnarsie yard still holding few sets of R42 service operation.
"So I guess carnarsie yard still holding few sets of R42 service operation."
Either Canarsie or East New York. In fact you can go to the ENY Yard and see a couple of R42s signed up for "L".
By the way, I'm new.
I doubt that might be the reason. Because he told me that Saw F on the last three car and E on the first car. Which that leads me the thoughts that maybe one of the N's car was given to W and N shorten one car and called CI yard to send a fleet for back up. And since F has some R32 and they think it won't be good idea to send R46 since it never runs on the N. Prior that one maybe one of the W R68 was short and borrowed R40M from N and get the R32 since R46 is unsuitable for N. This R32 may be having to with W's car situation That my theory. I can't guaranteed I might be right on this.
First, if the R32s are not coming from the "F" fleet at Coney Island, where would it be coming from since no other line that uses the Coney Island yard operates R32s. Also the "F" and "E" share equipment-both R32s and R46s.
Where are you getting that the R46s are not suitable for the "N". The R46s operated on the "N", a lot of times exclusively from 1976 to 1987. Even after the northern terminal swap between the "N" and "R" in May of 1987, a few R46s still continued to run on the "N" for a short period of time.
Where are you getting that the R46s are not suitable for the "N". The R46s operated on the "N", a lot of times exclusively from 1976 to 1987. Even after the northern terminal swap between the "N" and "R" in May of 1987, a few R46s still continued to run on the "N" for a short period of time.]
Maybe the '32's came from Jamaica. Don't forget that the R calls that home. Even the Jamaica Yard Rollsign on R46's before they were replaced by LCD's had N Line terminals on them.
Or maybe it was Ozzy who signed the whole train as an N but it really was an R. [J/K]
Ten points to the first SubTalker to figure out what I really mean. The fact that I said three days ago should be a hint.
Twenty-five points to anyone who gets a photo of it.
Good luck finding it!
Adam is uneligible to participate.
(That should be another hint!!!)
Let me repost...
R42 #4652-4653 sighted on the Q Diamond TODAY, as well as three days ago. No joke!!!
Ten points to the first SubTalker to figure out what I really meant. The fact that I said three days ago should be a hint.
Twenty-five points to anyone who gets a photo of it.
Good luck finding it!
Adam is uneligible to participate.
(That should be another hint!!!)
Bah, to put an end to the mystery, I'll just tell it. It's a 2-car train that's sitting at ENY. I dunno why it's there, but it is consistently signed as a Q-Diamond (both cars, front and side). It has been there since Saturday, and I saw it again today. I'm saying this because I hope SOMEONE will go take a photo of it [you know my camera's still messed up]. They moved it from the upper yard to the lower yard. Now I've heard of mis-signed trains etc. but I find it quite peculiar that both cars were consistently signed as Q (although I couldn't quite make out the terminals). Go look for yourself, it's probably still there. Maybe these cars will be transferred to CIY.
Bill "Newkirk"
What comes around, goes around ?
Bill "Newkirk"
9 While most bus service in our neighborhood stops running at night, MTA plans to run the Pasadena Gold Line for 22 straight hours (4:00 am - 2:00 am)
8 Pasadena Gold Line is the New Gold Rush - It steals, dispossess and builds a train on the backs of Indigenous Peoples, Mexicans, Blacks, and Chinese.
7 While you read this, an armpit is still in front of bus riders' faces on overcrowded buses!
6 Supervisor Gloria Molina fought adamantly to rename Gold Line/Eastside rail stations to things like Mariachi Station. Did Zapata, Fannie Lou Hamer and Emma Tenayuca really die so we could get ethnic theme rail stations?
5 Pasadena Gold Line is 13.7 miles, $869 million to build, with only 28,000 daily riders. The Vermont bus line has 45,000 daily inner city riders who each get a subsidy of less than one dollar per ride. Can you say, Transit Racism?
4 MTA’s new advertizing slogan “Discover Gold” sounds like it was written by the firm Columbus, Cortez & Slave Traders, Inc.
3 Liberal Democrats Gloria Molina, Zev Yaroslavsky and Pam O’Connor all voted to raise our fares to pay for the Gold Line. Ever wonder what they would do if they were Republicans?
2 Like the broken treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, MTA violates the BRU Consent Decree with the Pasadena Rail Construction Authority.
1 $52 Bus Pass, plus Bye, Bye Transfer = $40 million/ year out of our pockets. Gold Line Operation Cost: $35 million / year = MTA makes out like bandits on new fares.
>
>please not again.. i do agree with SOME of what the they said here !!
>................!
10 On June 29th, MTA said “Hasta la vista, Baby” to bus lines 401, 483, 188, 561, 252, 426, 418, 311, 56 and the list goes on and on...
Yeah, and they'll be replaced by something that can carry many more people, faster, more efficiently, and in greater comfort than any bus could ever dream.
9 While most bus service in our neighborhood stops running at night, MTA plans to run the Pasadena Gold Line for 22 straight hours (4:00 am - 2:00 am)
How is this a bad thing? I'm not sure if they've noticed, but a Diesel bus is a hell of a lot noisier than a electric LRT car, even with all the AC traction noises they make now. I'd rather have an LRT screech around the corner than a damn bus roar away from the stoplight with worse acceleration, that just means it's hanging around longer.
8 Pasadena Gold Line is the New Gold Rush - It steals, dispossess and builds a train on the backs of Indigenous Peoples, Mexicans, Blacks, and Chinese.
Indigenous people in the LA Basin??? Sure, and where is this one ever based in reality? Do you really have (insert ethnic slur for one of the minorties they singled out) ties???
7 While you read this, an armpit is still in front of bus riders' faces on overcrowded buses!
So instead of laying the groundwork for an efficient transportation system that will overcome the shortcomings of LA's utter dependance on the car and road they should just yield to a Robert Moses-esque idea of running busses because that way you don't interrupt the cars?
6 Supervisor Gloria Molina fought adamantly to rename Gold Line/Eastside rail stations to things like Mariachi Station. Did Zapata, Fannie Lou Hamer and Emma Tenayuca really die so we could get ethnic theme rail stations?
Oh jeez, now we're gonna complain about station names? Gimme a break, if they had named the station after the street that it crossed or paralleled then they'd scream bloody murder about their ethnic identity being threatened. Instead they bitch because LAMTA made an offering to them, and BRU spit in their face.
5 Pasadena Gold Line is 13.7 miles, $869 million to build, with only 28,000 daily riders. The Vermont bus line has 45,000 daily inner city riders who each get a subsidy of less than one dollar per ride. Can you say, Transit Racism?
Damn, only 63 million per mile? That's pretty good, how'd they keep the prices down? And does that include rolling stock? OTOH, perhaps if BRU would drop their ridiculous call for more busses (despite what BRU and SEPTA think, NCL died years ago, after they ran all the decent trolley opertors into the ground), and go for LRT like the rest of the thinking world they'd get somewhere. Something using Low-Floor LRVs running down a median, more like a Streetcar than the LAMTA idea of an LRT, could be more effective in such a role than even busses. Just get some girder rail, some Combinos, Skoda Astras or something similar, and you're all set. The capacity issues will clear up quickly, and it would be more cost effective to run, since only one operator would be needed per train (assuming POP of course).
4 MTA’s new advertizing slogan “Discover Gold” sounds like it was written by the firm Columbus, Cortez & Slave Traders, Inc.
Gee, nothing like going right for the least common denominator. Just punch that racism button and you'll have the bus riders out on the streets! I used to think Phildelphia was the least racially mature place in the US, but LA, or at least the LA Basin town where this was scrawled is looking more and more like a more than capable successor.
3 Liberal Democrats Gloria Molina, Zev Yaroslavsky and Pam O’Connor all voted to raise our fares to pay for the Gold Line. Ever wonder what they would do if they were Republicans?
Once again, this isn't an argument against the Gold Line, it's more of a slander campaign against the people who fought for it. There's nothing to refute here, yes they did raise the fare, but then LA has to have one of the lowest fare/operating cost, and it gets a federal subsidy for it's operating costs to make up for their minimal revenue, so I can't say I feel really sorry for them.
2 Like the broken treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, MTA violates the BRU Consent Decree with the Pasadena Rail Construction Authority.
Once again, punch dat race button! Heck, when a beligerant group demanding more busses comes at you, what are you supposed to do, just sign you whole budget over to Neoplan or NABI? They seem to forget that bus drivers do need to be paid, and that if they want to have busses running down every street they will have to accept a fare increase, since expanded bus service would raise operating costs, and farebox revenue generally covers operating costs, no capitol costs. No doubt the feds won't pony up any money, since that's all going to baghdad's bus system, and enron and friends ripped off Grey, so the state's broke too, thus the only place money can come from is the riders themselves. Once again, if they would have asked for LRT, then they would have only had to bite the bullet in Capitol costs, which the government will at least partially cover. You might have to walk a block or two to the train, but at leastthe operating costs are kept down.
1 $52 Bus Pass, plus Bye, Bye Transfer = $40 million/ year out of our pockets. Gold Line Operation Cost: $35 million / year = MTA makes out like bandits on new fares.
I'm sorry, the world's smallest violin is currently being used for a 16 year old who only got her parent's old Saab 9000, rather than the brand new 900 convertable she had wanted. 52 bucks? I wish, I got 70 bucks for a monthly, and I'm sure the new yorkers here would love to have even a 60 dollar monthly pass, if the feds would pony up the same amount they waste on LA. But NYC covers most of their operating costs at the farebox, quite unlike some OTHER cities. They're the ones that are making out like bandits, demanding a minimal transportation network which would benefit very few, all the while demanding that the exsisting systems be thrust into a near state of Defered Maitenance. Once again, I really wonder who is behind the BRU, it seems like a thinly veiled effort by the road lobby to counter the as-yet very successful efforts of the pro-LRT community activists.
Didn't you post this exact thing like a few weeks ago?
Busses suck...
It is rather presumptuous of you to criticize from this ongoing controversy from across the country.
>>> 10 On June 29th, MTA said "Hasta la vista, Baby" to bus lines 401, 483, 188, 561, 252, 426, 418, 311, 56 and the list goes on and on...
Yeah, and they'll be replaced by something that can carry many more people, faster, more efficiently, and in greater comfort than any bus could ever dream. <<<
Have you bothered to look at a map of where those bus lines were compared to where the Gold Line is? An LRV which runs somewhere else is not a replacement for a bus which stops a block from your house. It has been a complaint of the BRU, supported by the findings of a federal judge, that the LACMTA was building rail to service White suburbs at the cost of minority inner city bus service.
>>> 9 While most bus service in our neighborhood stops running at night, MTA plans to run the Pasadena Gold Line for 22 straight hours (4:00 am - 2:00 am)
How is this a bad thing? <<<
In the context of things, in poor minority neighborhoods if you are out late you have to take a taxi home, in the White suburbs, public transportation is provided.
>>> perhaps if BRU would drop their ridiculous call for more busses ... and go for LRT like the rest of the thinking world they'd get somewhere. Something using Low-Floor LRVs running down a median, more like a Streetcar than the LAMTA idea of an LRT, could be more effective in such a role than even busses. <<<
Aren't you looking in the wrong direction? It is LACMTA that has to build the street running LRVs, not the BRU. The BRU is complaining about what the LACMTA is spending money on, not some alternative. The BRU has no particular love for buses over rail running in the same place, but it does not want rail going elsewhere to replace buses they use.
>>> Gee, nothing like going right for the least common denominator. Just punch that racism button and you'll have the bus riders out on the streets! <<<
The Bus Riders Union represents inner city riders who travel on buses not by choice, but because they do not have cars. They tend to be Black and Hispanic. Since the consent decree which they refer to was based on a finding of civil rights violations by the LACMTA by allowing service to deteriorate in minority neighborhoods in order to finance building rail to the White suburbs, is it all that surprising (or even inappropriate) that the racism button is pushed?
Tom
yes you are right
However, I will feel free to comment on the BRU's idiocy in pushing for busses. Even if I am 3000 miles away, I have ties to the LA area, and also what starts on one side of the country has a way of working it's way around the country, so if suddenly some organization in philly starts calling for an end to all SEPTA trolley operations, an immediate bustitution of all exsisting lines, and the paving over or digging up of every mile of rail SEPTA CTD has, I'll know where to look for their inspiration. Also, being 3000 miles distant has not stopped any west coast subtalker from commenting on the goings on with the NYC Subway. LAMTA is not going to reroute the Green and Blue lines because NYC did the so with it's system, also, there is little danger in any LAMTA rolling stock ending up in any ocean, no matter if NYCTA, or more appropriately PATH set the precedence, so I could say the constant pining for the Sea Bits and the constant reefing comments are less apropriate than my having tossed my two cents into the BRU debate.
I also was wondering why BRU has only chosen bus? I did not mean that BRU themselves lay the rail, but rather that they lobby for a more balanced transit system, why do they care if they get a bus or an LRV? I'd think they'd be thrilled to get a low-floor LRV with a capacity nearly double that of the busses on something like their much touted Vermont Ave corridor. Also, weren't there plans to run the Red Line or another light rail line out to the San Fernando valley, I remember a newspaper article which had the LA Basin covered by a web of rail lines. This was back just around the time the Blue Line was getting on it's feet and the ETB thing had just been killed. Also, what about the blue line? Doesn't that serve neighborhoods poor enough for them? After all it rolls under the shadows of Watts Towers, or has Watts changed since the last time I was there, perhaps the LRT brought a change?
It seems like the blue line was built, and it serviced plenty of lower income areas, I was always under the impression that the area between the 110 and 710 was fairly depressed. After that the Green Line mostly came about because I-105 was built with the provisions for the rail line down the median. And certainly the area it served was, for portions, depressed. And so now, when the MTA decides to build a rail line to an area somewhat underserved by transit, they're gonna catch all hell from those who didn't get anything? Are the bus cuts and the Gold Line truely related? Or are the bus cuts part of the budgetary problems California has had, while the Gold line and the LAMTA rail network in general has just become a political football that BRU picked up?
Once again, I just wonder why the BRU isn't working with the LAMTA, rather than against them? Their whole website outlines a beligerant police toward LAMTA, why not actually work for LRT? Doing so would get them considerable federal funding, since LRT is what the DOT likes right now, and it'd be in line with what LAMTA is trying to do in it's service area, eliminate people's need to use roads.
Please, stop using that expression! It's moronic. And it's "racist" against "my people", so to speak. White folks have just as many rights as any others. Stop with the f***ing casual references to such descriptions. The way you put it, makes it seem like being a "White suburb" is a horrid thing.
I've not heard of this plan. Please tell us more.
Mark
Basically soon after the 1962 Worlds Fair when Alweg was just coming off the wild success of their Seattle monorail, which was constructed in less than 6 months, and paid for itself within the course of the fair Alweg offered to build monorail systems of the same type for Seattle, San Fransisco, San Diego, and several other west coast cities. I've never seen anything on the San Fransisco and San Diego monorails, I belive they just turned Alweg down, but LA and Seattle both proceeded to the design phase, and both would have been beautiful transit neworks in their own right. Sadly Seattle had a change of mayor who left Alweg standing at the altar, they were nearly ready to start construction, but at the last second the Mayor halted it.
In LA it sounds a lot like big oil flexed it's muscle to keep LA in diesel busses. And from that map the monorail wouldn't have served the areas that are currently bitching about the lack of bus service. However that one Monorail line could have grown into a whole system, to rival that of New York's subways, but completely elevated, yet every bit as quiet and nearly as unobtrusive as a subway, for a fraction of the cost.
BTW the quote from Ray Bradbury at the end of the article is classic!
Maybe we need a Future Monorail Rider's Union! A group that can start hounding LA to buy an Alweg monorail system from Hitachi, and call for a decrease in the number of buses! The first line could run from LAX and an interchange with the Green Line through Inglewood, then out to East LA and La Hambra. Later could come the Wilshire Blvd Monorail replacing the Red line and running from Santa Monica onto the East LA - La Hambra line while the LAX - Inglewood line turns northwest out of the CBD for a run to West Hollywood via the 101 and Santa Monica Blvd. They system would be fed via collector busses, and all local routes would be retained, there would be a free interchange between the monorail's and busses, just ask the bus driver for an transfer (unless they have something like Metrocard...).
Top 10 reasons Pasadena Gold Line is a civil rights Violation
I said it in the last thread, if I were an oil or auto tycoon, I'd be giving lots of shadow funding to the LA BRU...
Mark
Here's an article from the LA Times some months back.
By Kurt Streeter
Times Staff Writer
A mediator has ruled that the Metropolitan
Transportation Authority's
bus service does not meet the strict
standards on overcrowding
established in a federal agreement.
The MTA and the Bus Riders Union, lead
plaintiff in the federal
consent decree that forced massive
improvements to the countywide bus
system, have clashed since 1996 over whether
the transit agency is
limiting the number of people forced to stand
on crowded buses, as it
agreed to do.
The clash has played out in numerous
courtrooms, with the MTA
repeatedly appealing the consent decree only
to be rebuked by federal
judges and, in March, the state Supreme
Court.
On Tuesday, Donald Bliss, the Washington
lawyer appointed to mediate
the dispute, issued a ruling stating that the
MTA has violated
overcrowding standards on at least 68 bus
lines over the last two
years.
Bliss' ruling was based on statistics
provided by the Bus Riders
Union and the MTA, in addition to a memo
acknowledging overcrowding
on the lines signed last week by
representatives of both sides.
The riders' organization praised the ruling,
characterizing the MTA
as deceitful and uninterested in the best
interests of its core
customers: low-income bus riders. As he has
done repeatedly, Union
director Eric Mann said the MTA buses are
"massively overcrowded" and
called for 250 more buses to be put on the
street.
The MTA downplayed the ruling. A spokesman
said the agency's bus
service is much improved, partly because of
the consent decree. He
pointed to the near-total replacement of an
aging fleet of nearly
2,200 buses with new vehicles and the fact
that most lines do not
have significant overcrowding problems.
The MTA continues to reason that the
overcrowding benchmarks do not
represent a complete picture of what the bus
system is like. "It's
just impossible not to have too many people
standing at certain
times," said Marc Littman, an MTA spokesman.
Far more important than the haggle over
whether eight or 11 people on
average are standing on MTA's rush-hour buses
is the next step: what
to do about it.
Bliss has directed both sides to study why
buses are too crowded and
then give him recommendations on how to solve
the problem. If the two
sides fail to come to an agreement, Bliss
will step in to offer his
own solution sometime in the next three to
four months.
Mark
Mark
Did the area who has rail now have the right of way previously, and in the overcrowded bus area would they have to displace anybody or just do solely street running of the trains?
The Red Line, being a subway, operates over (actually under) new territory.
The Blue Line's main line operates over the former Pacific Electric Long Beach line (between Washington Blvd and Long Beach Blvd/Willow St), the rest is new street running (although the old PE line also operated on Long Beach Blvd south of Willow)
The Green Line is mostly in the median of the Century (I-105) Freeway, although for much of the time it is near the old PE El Segundo line (which is still active as a UP freight line today)
The Gold Line was built on former AT&SF (now BNSF) right of way.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
No pain, no gain. And them snooty UES retards desire a little pain. How many power plants and trash transfer stations do they have? and they're going to cry like a bunch of spoiled brats over a subway line taking down a few buildings? Meanwhile, people from the bronx can hardly get to work in the morning due to overcrowding, and if a terrorist struck the lex line diromg rush hour, forget about the death toll and chaos....
Upper east siders: uncooperative, and unamerican.
"I agree with you 100%!They're nothing but a bunch of moron's like the rest of this damn city is full of!"
If you're going to call prople "morons", make sure you spell the word correctly.
It is a hard concept to get people to accept - for as lonag as 16 years: construction noise 24/7, total disruption of traffic, loss of access to stores resulting in stores closing down. The list could go on and on.
If there were no subway at all on the east side you would not get that kind of reaction. But since there is the overcrowded Lex, most of those people would rather, grin, bear it and complain.
The SAS is still needed but stop thinking like a railfan and put yourself in the shoes of the people along 2nd Av. I don't think you would like it either, I know I wouldn't.
Will it get built? Only time, politics and NIMBYS will tell.
Peace,
ANDEE
Total bullshit and exaggeration. The line will be built in phases. Yes, it would be 12 to 18 years before the whole line is built (if that day ever comes). But the amount of street disruption in any one area would be more like two years. This hearing was on the need to locate station exits and vent plants in former storefronts on the street, in an area where the subway construction would be deep tunneling.
If public hearings represent "democracy," I guess the answer is not to build the SAS, but to ease crowsding by making it illegal for residents of the Bronx to ride the Lex, or by shutting all the stations on the UES. That is my point -- not that I opposed to democracy, as Ron-in-Bayside seems to think, but that public hearings are neither representative nor democratic.
Not only do all the people shouting no not represent all the people of the city, they don't even represent the majority of the people on the Upper East Side. Heck, if everyone on Second Avenue was well informed (suface disruption limited to the locations where stations would be, and only a couple of years there) I doubt if all the people shouting "no" would even represent all the people who live and work on Second Avenue.
Unfortuantely, I don't have a clear alternative. There have been cases where civic groups have contacted a random sample of people, brought them in, gave them a full range of information on a particular issue, and then got their comments. That would obviously have made the hearing rather different. So would holding a hearing on the Lex Express or Lex Local during rush hour.
As for the subway, it would be possible to eliminate the 86th and 96th Street Stations, along with some on the lower east side (34th, 23rd, perhaps Grand) to turn the SAS into an express rather than a local, as we discussed here long ago. You'd hook the SAS into the Pelham line and perhaps the Dyre Avenue Line, and have it serve residents of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan rather than the East Side. With a connection to Grand Central and service to Queens, it could pull some Queens residents and MetroNorth riders off the Lex as well (the SAS EIS rejected the Grand Central option on the ground that the SAS would be slower than the Lex Express). The Upper East Side would be left with the Lex Local, which would no longer go to the Bronx. But you'd still need the 72nd Street station, both due to the employment concentrations there and the need for a place to transfer to get to either the BMT Broadway or all the way Downtown. And the biggest NIMBY objections were from 72nd Street.
What construction project runs 24 hours a day??
Only one section of avenue at a time will be disrupted formaybe 3 years max - and some won't be disrupted at all, dure to use of TBM or existing tunnel.
The forum was a good means for venting. What MTA has to do is set up a construction schedule and an aggressive outreach program which will show residents that each person's share of the inconvenience will only last a couple of years.
Also, 24/7 construction does not mean 24/7 misery. Some activities are worse than others. For example, the PA did not allow pile driving for AirTrain's construction at night.
I have estimates from the Manhattan Borough Prez' office that show the longest any single segment would take is 5 years (and those would be very rare) - I don't think that assumes 24/7 work activity.
I agree, it should be done as expeditiously as possible, without neglecting quality of construction.
One thing that really helps is that the merge at 63rd Street/Lexington Station is already built. So virtually all construction involves tunnel segments that are not used by existing train services and do not impact on existing schedules (unlike the 63rd Street Connector project). The 125 Street Terminal does not have to be dealt with this second, as the first operating segment (an extended Q train running via 63rd Street) will terminate, I believe, at 2nd Av/86th Street.
Utility cables were pushed out of the way a long time ago, so MTA doesn't have to worry much about that either.
The key is to put the street decking up as quickly as possible so cars can drive and people can walk and stores can open their doors as much as possible.
This does not mean no work at all will have been performed north of 86th Street, however. For example, I would expect that some of the "finihing" work on existing tunnels could easily be tackled at the same time.
One question I wonder about is from which direction will the TBM for the Stubway run? If it runs south to north, an entirely separate TBM will have to be inserted to start Phase II. But if it starts at 96th Street (and the stuff is removed there) it can just keep continuing south.
Here is the advantage. Let's say that "shock of shocks" only the Stubway gets federal funding. While not dealing with equipment, and the high cost of pushing stations up to the street, the TA could use a small portion of its ongoing revenues to keep the TBM running at slow speed, chewing up rock during the day, with stuff removed via work train and subway at night. It could go on like that for years, as far south as Houston. At least, then, we'd have the hole.
As to your other suggestion, I think that's up to the Accounting Department.
Right, but the segment south of 63rd is TBM territory too. So they could put it in there, and have it chew its way down 2nd Avenue south of 63rd Street too.
Then you have to just start building, knowing full well the crybabies will get over it.
What you are describing is a golden era of common sense that we have not yet had. We went from completely ignoring local concerns (Moses era) to 30 years of handing a veto to any three people, if one is or is willing to hire a lawyer, regardless of equity and the merits.
Let's hope this turns out different. But the MTA has jumped through all the procedural hoops on this project, over years and years.
In the past couple of decades, in contrast, whenever the pols really wanted something to happen they have EXEMPTED it from the process, which is designed to be impossibble -- ie. school siting and construction exempted from ULURP and CEQR by law, the extra lane on the LIE specifically exempted from reviews, etc. One might argue that these exemptions were a bad alternative to streamlining these procedures, but there you are.
Could be, but a more likely explanation is something I've said before - no matter what the proposal, the "antis" are almost always going to be more rabid in their oppostion than the "pros" will be in their support.
A very sound point - and even more true if a small number of people are going to suffer a great deal of pain so that a very large number of people (such as overcrowded Lex travellers, for example) each get a small gain. The gainers won't bother to agitate; the sufferers will.
Of course, the number of people who truly suffer some pain (as opposed to the whiners is very tiny, and even those are in line to be compensated financially for their pain.
So the whole concept is fraudulent.
Exactly. I seem to be the only one who posts here who actually lives within a block of 2nd Ave; in fact, within a block of a proposed entrance. I'm sure it'll be a real pain, but I'm all for it.
So are all my neighbors, to the best of my knowledge. Some of the storekeepers are definitely opposed, for obvious reasons. They drive in from the suburbs, so they'll never use it, but they'll lose business while construction is going on.
It would not be totally unreasonable for MTA to offer them a little financial assistance during this time. If it will keep the peace, I'm for it.
I have always thought that the 2nd Avenue line, instead of just dead-ending at 125 St. for a "future" connection to the Pelham line, should instead run under 125 St. to St. Nicholas Avenue or (though it may be difficult) Broadway and provide an easy connection from every other line in the city (though it may not work to the #1 line). When I've sent a letter about it to the MTA, I get a form letter back saying, in effect, "TS". Of course, if I worked for the MTA, I'd probably send everybody who had a good idea the same thing. :-)
You're repeating a fiction. Traffic will not be totally disrupted, as the 63rd Street project under Northern Boulevard proved; construction will affect a given location for maybe 1-3 years at a time at the most, and sections of the line that are already built, or where MTA will utilize a TBM won't be affected much at all.
That doesn't mean some stores won't be relocated or have to close. But you have to read with a critical eye here, Allan. The story was very poorly written.
:0)
The limousine liberals are on the Upper West Side.
The plan is that only the station locations would endure cut and cover construction. In theory, only the places with potential long-term gain would have to endure short-term pain. Which is what makes the arguments against the SAS so infuriating for railfans and transit advocates.
No one is going to lose a reelection race because he/she voted to support the Second Av Subway.
The whiners can whine (Constitutionally protected speech, after all) and MTA can build while they whine. The two activities are not exclusive.
1) Safety standards are more strict today. They hardly existed back when the Lex was built. Back then, every major civil project was calculated from statistics to have a certain number of accidents and deaths. Today, a SINGLE accident or death is unacceptable. Because of that, certain steps must be taken to preform a job, which can slow down progress. It's well worth it to take two more minute to perform a very repetitive task in order to save the life of a worker later on.
2) More stuff in the ground. Back in the 10s, they didn't have all the random infrastructure you have today. Sewage pipes, utilities, subway tunnels (at least down at the southern half) and other good stuff. You have to relocate all that or find a way around it, which can be difficult. I believe that the utilities under 2 Av were actually relocated back in the 60s and 70s in anticipation of the subway. However, I think that they were expecting an all cut-and-cover subway. If it is bored, then you may be encountering deep pipes square in the path of the tunnel. If it does the cut-and-cover station and bored tunnel combo thing mentioned elsewhere, then that means the tunnel will have elevation differences up to, say 70 feet. That means it'll cross stuff at every elevation from the surface to the deepest parts.
And keep people informed and feeling like they have an ear to talk to.
Since I have only experience with road construction, I have no subway examples, so here is an road example of this: In Atlanta two years ago, the southeast segment of I-285 had to be repaved in both directions. If they shut down only one or lanes at time to do this, the GDOT estimated it would have taken two years to repave all eight lanes of this 10 mile segment. So what they did was they completely shut down the ENTIRE segment at 9:00pm on Fridays and reopened it at 7:00am on Saturdays (the times varied a little bit). Electronic signs on the interstates helped reroute traffic onto other interstates or major surface roads. With this extreme method, the whole thing was repaved in less than 10 weekends with minimal disruption to traffic. Much better than two years. Because of the success, the GDOT uses this as one of the preferred methods to repave major roads; it's been used a few times since then.
I think that shutting down one or two blocks at the time would make cut-and-cover go by faster. That's only ~250-500 feet of road you are shutting down. You have avenues on either side of 2 Av to reroute traffic. Temporary sidewalks are narrow enough that they wouldn't disturb the construction site.
I guess it's a balancing act. Maybe different techniques can be combined to optimize results.
Probably the best idea. It'll still get opposition from storeowners, even though in most cases their customers come by transit or foot. NYC merchants are quick to blame street or sidewalk work, even scaffolding on buildings, if business falls off, regardless of what the real causes may be.
Not an option. At the very least there needs to be a one-lane temporary roadway for buses and emergency vehicles.
You also have to go through a whole permit process (DOT, etc.) once the community consultation process is complete. This all adds a lot of time and money to any project.
N Broadway Line
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Based on the way some New Yorkers on this board communicate, I'm not missing much in NYC. :-)
But Atlanta is a fun town. Getting crowded and not enough infrastructure (and pretty disgusting sprawl eating up farmland) and not enough transit.
I can think of ten reasons offhand:
1. Jobs
2. Jobs
3. Jobs
4. Jobs
5. Jobs
6. Jobs
7. Jobs
8. Jobs
9. Jobs
10. Jobs
Let's face it, but at 21 million people the New York area is kind of full. You have a housing boom way out in places like Dutchess, as we've discussed here, but that is very, very far from the center. You can replace small buildings with bigger ones closer in, but that makes housing expensive relative to paving over housing. And in the suburbs, it isn't allowed.
Of course, were it not for market controls -- rent control, Section 8, public housing, tax subsidies for elderly homeowners -- those who were working would gradually out-compete those who are not for housing. New York's labor force participation is lower than most places.
But you can't say that New York is being abandoned in favor of Atlanta. We're just full.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/21/realestate/21LIVI.html
or Link here
This is not necessarily true, there are plenty of good schools. Unfortunately the worst ones are often in the places where parents can least afford to send their kids to private school and likely don't have the resources to augment school with home learning to make up for a bad school.
With concerned citizens like these, Manhattan may implode under the weight of it's own ego; like a neutron star.
:0)
With concerned citizens like these, Manhattan may implode under the weight of it's own ego; like a neutron star.
David
--Mark
David
You know better than that. You'd take your turn on inconvenience; then it would shift up the street and your block would be OK again, and so on, until the thing's done.
When they're working on the mid 60's blocks the mid-80's blocks would have nothing to complain about and vice-versa.
I'm not completely joking, really. You'd have to compensate store owners. But you'd save on inflation...
Subways would bring higher density land use. Much has been said in this forum regarding the fear of the upper economic classes towards the unwashed masses and the subway expansion that would bring them.
However, the same holds for people living in low rent districts, when a subway comes. Those now living in rent stabilized or rent controlled walkups from East Harlem to the East Village will see their buildings demolished and replaced higher density and higher priced building stock, as certainly had Robert Moses decided to build a Title I housing project.
For those who believe that there is merit to economic and cultural diversity in neighborhoods, subways can become homogenizers. For those who believe that new businesses require low rents, subways and their upscale following are a disaster.
It's not all roses.
My guess is that, if one were to examine the New York Metropolitan Region as a whole, one would find more economic and cultural diversity in areas within 1/2 mile of a subway than elsewhere. And, of course, one can get from places with a subway to other places with a subway even if one cannot afford a car, and will share that subway with people from different backgrounds. Thus, one can have economic and cultural diversity in one's life even if not on one's block.
(For those who believe that new businesses require low rents, subways and their upscale following are a disaster.)
The lack of affordable commercial space does not result from people having access to more places. It results from the city's decision to restrict supply in the 1961 zoning resolution, on the grounds that the market produced too much commercial space that was not needed (see Vorhees Walker Smith and Smith, Zoning New York City, 1958). They assumed local commercial streets were obsolete, as were small workshops, working at home, and the corner store in an otherwise residential area. They slashed local commercial zoning. They thought the commercial future was shopping centers and supermarkets in less space (hence less required), high rise office buildings in Manhattan (less land required). They though land was needed to keep industry (but all commercial was allowed in industrial zones until the disasterous 1974 amendment) and built low-rise suburban housing.
The block is really the center of child's life. If one want's to break economic, ethnic, religious and racial prejudices, one really must start with a child's playmates. The block's hold will fade in proportion to the amount of time one spends away from it. However, the block retains a substantial portion of a child's activity through high school.
It [lack of affordable commercial space] results from the city's decision to restrict supply in the 1961 zoning resolution,
This does not contradict my thesis. There are many factors at work. Every factor that drives up the cost of commercial space, including upscaling a neighborhood with a new subway, hurts small and startup enterprises in that area.
Here's where you run off a little too far. If a neighborhood is sufficiently blighted, a new subway can help make investment and start-up business possible. Your blanket statement here is false.
And the effect of the SAS is likely to be low. the area south of 96th is already highly developed as the most affluent area in the country with high residential and commercial rents. The area north of 96th has lots of statuory public housing. In fact, one of the criticisms of the SAS (compared with, say, the Flushing Extension) is that it would not generate development that would not happen anyway. The only things that are certain to change is the quality of life of those who ride the subway, and the MTA's operating cost ratio (since the farebox capture, especially on the Stubway, is likely to be good).
Indeed, the SAS is an investment that governments makes in part for poor citizens who rely on mass transit. It gives them an easier ride to work, increases opportunities for them, and maximizes what opportunity for investment there is in the area (and there are still substantial opportunities for developers there) as well as on 125th Street commercial district (because people now have a new way to reverse commute to jobs and retail there). These opportunities help improve quality of life, support employment and reduce crime. hey create a social good.
It will add a more cosmopolitan air to the Avenue, I think. And it will restore a sense of balance to the Manhattan rail grid. Now, we should start thinking about what comes after. How about a new line down the west side waterfront?
In what way?
14th Street already has subway access to every part of the city.
One benefit will be that L riders coming into Manhattan who need to go to hospital appointments on the East Side will have a subway which takes them closer to their destination and is ADA compliant. For example, the 2 Av/72nd St station serves Cornell Medical Center better than any Lex station does.
Cornell, and tons of others.. like beekman, Bellview, NYU hosp., Beth Isreal, Metropolitan.. and the list is endless.. Somehow I think most of the workers riding the SAS will be Hospital Employees. Lets see.
N Bwy
Well yeah, but I'm thinking about the fairly long stretch of street east of Union Square to the river. The stops at First and Third Avenues on the Canarsie Line are not in the same league as a north/south trunk line station. You will see changes in the area; 14th Street will become even busier.
There are already major changes in the area. There are $600,000 co-op apartments for sale on Avenue D! I would agree with you that the SAS will probably accelerate renovation/development east of 2nd Ave between Houston and 14th, assuming there is anything left to redevelop by 2016. I just don't think that these changes will particularly emphasize 14th St, as opposed to any other far-east area of Manhattan.
Yes, if NYC runs the current track of moderate growth, 30 or 40 years from now almost all the low rises on E 14th will be gone. But many of those are west of 2nd Ave, not east of it. And many of the low rises in Alphabet City south of 14th will be gone too. This will happen without the SAS anyway, though perhaps slightly faster if the SAS is built.
N Bwy
I don't think the residents of Williamsburg would appreciate the L being shut down for a year.
But has the MTA said anything more specific about the "engineering difficulties" of an Ave C station?
Unless it's prohibitive, the city could fund it and make up the money by increased real estate taxes on Aves C and D.
An Avenue C station would be somewhat difficult to build because it would have to be quite deep. But that's not an impossible obstacle, and your point about increased tax revenues is quite appropriate.
I'll be dogged. I never knew about any proposals for an Avenue C station. That makes sense, route-wise. Come to think of it, so might an additional station WEST of 8th Avenue.
If the SAS is not built, over that span of time, the crush on the Lex, and on its streets, might make the East Side a less desireable place to live leading to a relative decline in housing prices. Therefore, one could argue that the SAS would allow the 50 year residence history of the East Side -- the gradual accumulation of high rise, high income apartments -- to continue.
The East Side, far from Midtown, has a huge collection of hosptials. If the trend away from hospital care continues, or of New York's enormous subsidies diminish, huge sites could become available for reuse. The Con Ed site on the East River south of the UN is a precursor of these. The developer has proposed an auto-oriented development with a big parking lot directly accessible from the FDR. To much of that, and the streets will be come permanently gridlocked.
The SAS would make the sites available for Transit Oriented Development, allowing the city to maintain its restrictions on parking in new developments in Manhattan and still get reuse of the sites by buildings that will add to the city -- jobs, taxes, housing, commerce and services.
An eastward extension of the Shuttle, which I believe you've advocated, would be a way of providing convenient transit access to that site. It would make a lot more sense than encouraging more auto use.
N Bwy
The first part of your thesis is that the SAS is not likely to generate many more riders because it will not generate much new housing or business because the surrounding land is either too expensive or publicly owned. The SAS will cause the TA to operate about 20 more tph during rush hours. Just how will operating an additional 20 tph without increased ridership not affect the TA's operating cost recovery?
Even though there will be little new development, there will be new riders, for sure. Some will come off of the M15 (reducing the cost of operating that bus),and some will come from the overcrowded streets. Remember, east side traffic is so bad that it has been identified as one of the worst pollutants in the city. And I know personally people who would ride the subway, but don't because the only option is the overcrowded lex line.
Rush hour service levels on the Lex could be increased by 20 tph, if the TA had the rolling stock and were willing to absorb the extra cost of operating them. If moving passengers from the M15 to the Lex were a result of augmented Lex service, then part of the cost of operating more trains could be offset by reduced bus service.
The question is: would that be enough to absorb all of the extra passengers, AND alleviate crowding? Will these people also be willing to walk over to a subway that will undoubtedly suffer heavy delays? The 2nd av subway will do all of these things more efficiently than simply modifying Lex line service.
I can think of a MUCH cheaper way to add service, convert the Lex to B division standards. Of course, this STILL isn't as valuable as a new 2nd av subway.
If there isn't enough justification to build 2nd av, then there would be no justification for ANY other new line, except maybe the Fluching extension.
Which would be all the more inconvenient due to the blocks long walk to the subway, and would be politically untenable as well.
But you already knew that.
But you already knew that.
You are right! It was an answer to Stephen's post, not yours.
But you already knew that.
That is NOT much cheaper than improving the signaling and operational procedures on the Lex to allow more frequent train service.
How would you lengthen the GCT platform? The curves start at each end, and there are buildings above it, so you can't just move the curves.
Clearly one needs to define criteria for justification.
The most obvious justification for capital expenditures from the commercial world is payback time - the time that the capital expenditure would be payed back through increased profitable business or reduced expenditures without growth. The 2nd Ave line flunks by this criterion whereas a terminal extension that significantly shortens more expensive bus revenue-miles has a better chance.
Some cities, most notably Paris, decided on a social equity criterion - namely that every city resident should be within a certain distance to a subway entrance. They then built their lines to meet this criterion. This is why nearly 100% of Parisians reside within 1/3 of a mile of a subway entrance.
If the major criterion for building the SAS is to reduce overcrowding on the Lex, then the justification is fundamentally flawed. The Lex is not operating anywhere near capacity nor even at previous service levels. If increased service levels were implemented, then the extrapolated loading levels (crowding) indicate that there would be no overcrowding.
Besides, the TA has stated that the Lex can handle 400,000 riders per hour. Even the 2020 projections for the SAS project only 375,000 peak hour riders for the Lex and SAS combined. I personally do not subscribe to the TA's capacity estimate nor do I subscribe to the growth projections in the SAS MIS-DEIS. However, I do believe that there is sufficient unused capacity on the Lex to negate the overcrowding justification for the next generation.
The point is that without relevant criteria there can be no rational justification and prioritization for system expansion.
True. and the Moscow Metro was very nicely designed too, in this manner. However, in New York the subway developed originally as the consequence of competition between passenger rail service companies. Under those conditions a strictly rational geographic plan was not possible.
As to the rest of your post, you present many assumptions as facts when they are no more than your opinions. You will supply data from the 1940s and 1950s to support your position, and a few Subtalkers support your view (which is all well and good).
But the city government, the MTA, the vast majority of transit advocates and professional transportation planners would tell you, basically, that your post is mostly claptrap.
But the city government, the MTA, the vast majority of transit advocates and professional transportation planners would tell you, basically, that your post is mostly claptrap.
It is quite plausible for both Stephen and those who disagree with him to be right in their own way.
With current procedures, the Lex cannot support more trains. Eeveryone agrees on that. In addition, official types will say that there is no easy solution to increasing capacity more than a bit.
Stephen says that with fairly minor changes, the Lex could support considerably more trains. He has provided considerable evidence in favor of this contention, but certainly not proof. He could easily be totally wrong, but there is certainly the possibility he is right. No one else has provided proof, in print, that I know of, that he is wrong.
By the way, I haven't actually see anyone on Subtalk say they 100% believe Stephen is right.
You do hit the nail on the head when you say that Stephen presents opinions and makes them sound like facts. But so does everyone else on this topic. There are no ways to get the facts without doing the right experiments, and so far NYCT hasn't chosen to do the experiments (which would be difficult to stage).
He cites procedure changes that MTA refuses to make. There are many reasons they refuse, not all of them good, but some have to do with the realities of safety and legal liability.
"You do hit the nail on the head when you say that Stephen presents opinions and makes them sound like facts."
Yes.
" But so does everyone else on this topic"
False statement. Stephen is virtually alone in this category.
Not sure what you're referring to here. I don't recall Stephen suggesting a return to the signaling rules of the 1950s. He suggests:
- More trains.
- Extremely accurate spacing of trains.
- Clocks so every crew knows if they are even a few seconds behind or ahead of schedule.
He then claims that dwell time will be considerably reduced. This is a slight leap of faith, and certainly does not take into account the ornery nature of many New Yorkers, who will hold doors at the worst moments.
There are no safety or legal issues in his proposals (though others have misread them to claim that there are). There is considerable cost, a whole raft of labor relations issues (imagine the union reaction at management insistence on staying within 15 seconds of schedule), and a whole set of management issues (are NYCT managers actually able to run the operation that tightly?).
There is also the possibility that the desired end result (shorter dwell time) will not actually take place to the degree needed.
I can see upper NYCT management not wanting to give the ideas a try. If they fail, possibly through their own fault, or possibly through union or passenger intransiegence, they look like total fools. If they succeed, why didn't they do it 20 years earlier?
A very agressive enforcement program would help, although it would require many undercover copsn at considerable cost. I somehow doubt that the revenues from a barrage of door-holding citations would cover the extra enforcement costs.
They wouldn't. But they might be paid for by the added income tax on income earned by Lex riders who now get to spend more time at their offices.
Give them a little credit. They've tried lots of things that have failed, then have tried other things and have eventually suceeded.
I think the evidence is pretty clear tho those who ride the trains every day -- mass transit in New York was well managed from 1900 to 1920 and from 1980 to today. It was mismanged in between.
If there is a problem today it is political, and it goes beyond transit. Too much debt and costs (especially pensions) postponed until tomorrow, when other costs (especially health care and pensions) are likely to be heavier in any event. The inevitable crush of future burdens is a reason that investments need to be made RIGHT NOW.
If there is a problem today it is political, and it goes beyond transit. Too much debt and costs (especially pensions) postponed until tomorrow, when other costs (especially health care and pensions) are likely to be heavier in any event. The inevitable crush of future burdens is a reason that investments need to be made RIGHT NOW.
NYCT may be far better managed than they used to be. But they are still highly risk averse. Trying out Stephen's ideas would be wildly successful at a relatively moderate cost (10s of millions of dollars for more trains) if it worked, but very expensive and embarassing if it didn't. If I were a high level manager at NYCT, I'd be scared of trying out his ideas, even if in principle they ought to work.
I would say that management continued to be reasonably good through at least the 1930's, consider the building of the IND system. It was really with unification that management quality began a 40-year decline.
I am starting to think this is a scam for the study money and that they are waiting for CBTC to fix the Lex.
CBTC is another scam that will take even longer to implement.
Not as old or repeated a topic as the Sea Beach Line.
There's more chance that there will be a new subway station on 2nd Ave than that anything new will happen with the Sea Beach Line in the next 50 years. That makes the SAS more interesting.
Hey Fred! Right now the Sea Beach DOES NOT run over the Bridge, much in the same way that the 2nd av Does not exist. See any parallels?
The 2nd av subway actually has funding right now. Hence, it's a relevant topic. As opposed to your incessant whining about a line that has the lowest S. Bklyn ridership. YOU DON'T EVEN LIVE IN BROOKLYN ANYMORE!!!!
I have a similar problem here in Kansas City, so I sympathize.
:0)
Sorry, no.
Hold on, brother. You gotta remember, you never really leave Brooklyn. I don't care if you move to China. Brooklyn sticks.
Hmmmm. Maybe in the flesh, but not in the soul. You'll see.
That's bs. Brooklyn changes. You might remember 1827 Brooklyn, from when you left, but that's not what brooklyn is today.
I'd like to see some of you guys come back to the neighborhoods you abandoned. haha.
You'll see.
No, I won't. Unlike you guys, I do not plan to ABANDON my home.
Anyone who moves out to the burbs has lost ALL touch with brooklyn.
Bottom line though, if you don't mind carrying a sawed-off shotgun so it ain't "concealed" ... we got it MADE in the shade up here. Heh. All the Sheriff asks is, "would ya PLEASE drag the perp across your door threshhold so's we can say we found the body TRESPASSING?"
Many folks of union yore in printshops had that infamous Donald Duck cartoon on the wall SOMEWHERE that said, and I quote, "Every day adds to the number of people who can KISS MY ... (umm)" ... up HERE, we get to bring them to the taxidermist so's we can MOUNT their skeevy butt on our WALL! Ah, couldn't do THAT in the city.
And besides, it's BOW-HUNTING SEASON! Bambi *MUST* die. (huzzah!) Pity the fine "Burgh of Noo Yawk" can't allow bow-hunting season for RATS ... "bag all you can, stew for everybody" ... as the joke goes, when "construction season ends upstate and the ground turns white, EVERY kitchen turns into a meat-processing plant" ... nah, best not talk about outer borough (ahem, kaff, that's 30 minutes for lunch, meow) "cuisine" ...
GHODS, How I *love* living upstate, where life is simple, friends/foes easy to pick out and you just DEAL with it, and all is well afterwards. Oh yeah! Find the queen, find the queen, find the queen. EVERYONE's a winner, step right up, STEP right up. :)
I think the problem is that upstate has gotten infested with soft ex-New York City/suburb types.
Transit-related content: and then when it snows 6" they complain how hazardous it is to get around, whereas if they'd just stayed in NYC and suburbs where they belonged they could have taken the train.
LOL! You said it!
Bisonburgers, anyone? Chase it down with a beer served from a fresh keg with an arnine handle to serve it up?
Ah, but do you love what New York WAS, what it IS, or what it COULD BE? Those who love what it was, and have left, often want it to be a museum city. Those who have a good deal here today often oppose changes required to assure a better of equal future for others, today or tomorrow. Only those who want to see the city move further on the path can get something done like the Second Avenue Subway.
Should the state motto be "Excelsior" (ever upward) or "Tondere at Aufugere" (fleece and flee)? With all this debt and unfunded pension liabilities, and with an infrastructure smaller than it was 50 years ago, I think too many people have believed the latter.
The question is though, should a state that's losing population have packing material as its state motto instead of something more encouraging? Maybe like Dan Rather's "Courage" or something more inspiring? :)
This sentence proves exactly what I'm saying: You might be from New York, but you aint a New Yorker at heart. You said that New York was the greatest City in the world, but that suburban atmospheres are more to your liking. What you are essentially saying is that Cities suck, but if you had to rank them New York would be the best. You could say something similar about dying: yes, every death sucks, but passing in your sleep is the best!
It seems to me that you like to be able to tell your suburban friends: "I came from New York City!", but that you really don't much care for the city. If it were destroyed in a nuclear explosion, it would be bad that the Sea Beach is gone, but really wouldn't matter much."
And you've got the nerve to tell us to 'forget about the 2nd av subway'. Of course you'd say this. You'd rather have more federal funds to build some more suburban housing developments and the roads for them.
I must wholeheartedly admit that I fall under this category. I would leave NYC at the drop of a hat if at all possible.
All I can say is, this city, especially, the juxtiposition of Brooklyn and New York counties, is one for the ages. Whatever the day to day trials and tribulations of their existence produces. It's always been my prejudiced view that Brooklyn is one of the Seven new Wonders of the World. This is a phenomena hard to articulate to one not savvy to what can be called "virtual quantum particles of sentience/existence". And the good part is, all is takes to get hip to it...is to just live it, for as long as it takes. No chants, no bodily positioning, no appropriate music...none a that jazz.
Ahem.
Yes, I am glad of Brooklyn.
My logic is out to lunch, is it? Did you not say here that New York was too big and crowded for you? This is what makes NYC what it is my friend, that fact that it is BIG and CROWDED. If you do not like this, you don't like the city. Or ANY city for that matter. You don't have anymore New York in you than a tourist. Yes, its a nice place, but TOO crowded.
My whole point is this: It's fine for you to be a non-New Yorker (say what you want, there's no Brooklyn in you), but don't tell us not to talk about the 2nd av subway, especially since you are little more than a suburban republican who DOES NOT ride the subway for any practical reason. When you stuff yourself onto a #4 train, then you can weigh in. Otherwise, shut it.
I think the biggest thing that says you aren't a New Yorker: you are a republican. No Way you're a a brookylnite after saying that.
Evidently that piece didn't sink in well, now did it? When you can find the suburbs more attractive than brooklyn, you ARE NOT a brooklynite, and do not have any piece of the brook in ya.
You can claim to be a New Yorker, but what you really did is called ABANDONMENT. You're no better than those companies that go across the river to NJ.
It's a cash cow they will make it work and the TA will pay even if it is cheaper to keep 'er.
Siemens has a de facto monopoly for all CBTC equipment to by used by NYCT. There are no operational criteria for judging whether or not the equipment supplied for the Canarsie Line is successful or not. Of course, they are want to make it "work". Of course it will be a cash cow for them.
But you have not shown sufficient expertise in such systems to be able to judge them. Neither have you shown that the TA has realistic current options that will work in the US environment; you merely content yourself by calling them incompetent.
If you're going to do that, at least be man enough to do it to their faces, and tell us on Subtalk what you learned.
While, I prefer to look at the theory behind the derivation, Mr. Mnatzakanov, has summarized the results of maximum service levels as a function of braking/acceleration rates in Table 1 and Figure 3, for those who prefer to jump to the conclusions without investigating the theory. He even plugs in the accelerations for two train models and comes up with theoretical limits of 47 and 43 tph and notes that current practices realize 90% of this capacity.
While you are free to question my credentials, I would prefer that people review what I have said. I have taken care to cite references from people who are working in this field to corroborate my conclusions. I also note that such references make use of simple Newtonian mechanics, which are applicable in a variety of disciplines and are immutable across international borders.
An older text that covers the same material is: "Urban rail transit : its economics and technology", A. Scheffer Lang, Richard M. Soberman, MIT Press, 1964. This text also treats the effects of the signal system, as well as giving examples for various acceleration rates. It also comes up with a range of 42-45 tph for parameters that match the current system. Such limits would be increased to the 46-50 tph range, if a CBTC-like system were implemented i.e. variable block length with no signal delays.
Would you mind citing a reference to what you have said in the past, specifically on the topic of why CBTC won't improve NYCT's tph rate? I recall summaries posted on Subtalk but not any detailed analysis.
In addition, I would like to see an analysis (not theoretical, obviously), if you have done one, of the time that trains spend with their doors open but not loading passengers. This seems to be a major bane of NYCT from the numbers I have seen you post. Is this is due to door holding and other anti-social behavior, or are there other causes.
I also don't see how your reference above (Lang) is applicable. You say it demonstrates that CBTC can raise the capacity of a system from 42-45 tph to 46-50 tph. But if a system isn't getting 42-45 tph in the first place, possibly because of the way its signaling is set up, how would that analysis be applicable?
I don't keep a personal record of my posts. However, I'm sure an archive search of my name and CBTC, will reveal a more detailed analysis.
Let me be precise about what I said. Current capacity is in the 40 tph range. CBTC will bring that up to the 47 tph range. However, NYCT operates in the 28 tph range and operation in the 35 tph range will eliminate overcrowding on the Lex - based on the Leave Load studies in the SAS-SDEIS. Therefore, my statement dismissing the necessity of installing CBTC to eliminate overcrowding.
In addition, I would like to see an analysis (not theoretical, obviously), if you have done one, of the time that trains spend with their doors open but not loading passengers. This seems to be a major bane of NYCT from the numbers I have seen you post. Is this is due to door holding and other anti-social behavior, or are there other causes.
I have done some studies of train frequencies on the Lex, as well as the dwell time analysis I performed last week at South Ferry. My Lex studies noted instances of door holding. Such instances did not influenced dwell time by around 10 seconds.
There are some studies regarding dwell time on the web. They are contained in two different reports: "Rail Transit Capacity", Transit Cooperative Research Program Report 13 and "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual", Transit Cooperative Research Program.
I also don't see how your reference above (Lang) is applicable. You say it demonstrates that CBTC can raise the capacity of a system from 42-45 tph to 46-50 tph. But if a system isn't getting 42-45 tph in the first place, possibly because of the way its signaling is set up, how would that analysis be applicable?
The Lang reference explicitly includes the signal system in deriving track capacity which the Moscow Metro reference included implicitly.
The inclusion includes two effects: location uncertanty and signal/human reaction time. The location uncertainty is related to block size and results in increasing the minumum spacing between trains. This is NOT a big item for NYCT because station approaches have short blocks - typically 200 feet or less. The remaining factor is typically 5 seconds. This might be reduced to 0 with CBTC (although the current CBTC specs permit a round trip delay of 2 seconds).
The net result between improved location and reduced signal/human latency is approximately 8 seconds. This means that an 85 second headway (42 tph) can be reduced to 77 seconds (47 tph).
The 8 second improvement due to a change in signal systems is minor compared the effects of acceleration, braking and dwell time - approximately 30 seconds each. However, even with NYCT's poor acceleration and braking rates, 40 tph is still possible with 30 second dwell times. That's what both the theoretical analysis and field studies show.
Unfortunately, you have never actually documented on Subtalk evidence backing your claims regarding CBTC. I'm, still waiting for you to do that.
Precisely which procedures outlined in the linked article would the TA be probhibited from employing for legal resons?
The same is true in Japan: subway employees are allowed to shove passengers into trains.
Maximum service levels are 30 tph in Tokyo. That's one of the resons pushers are required.
First, how can one justify any course of action, if there are no criteria by which to judge it?
What criteria should one use to justify the SAS? Should the criteria for the SAS be different than other capital projects? Should the criteria be different than that used by funding agencies?
Well, yes, that is what you have been saying, since your criteria are different...:0)
You can continue to live in this imaginary world, but ultimately, the real world is very different. For example, will adding trains to Lex actually get more people to ride the line? Is it really cheaper to operate the M15 over a 2nd av subway? Does you plan reduce the unacceptable amounts of pollution generated by east side traffic?
Mr. Baumann, you can continue to argue against the 2nd av subway, but you can't say that it's a superflous addition. We don't need ANY additions to our system then, do we?
I really hate how the Flushing extension came aboard around the same time there was actually a chance to get the funding to build the second avenue line.
If they were really serious about building the second avenue line, they would have just focus on getting funding for this project.. This would be the incentive of building the Flushing Extention, since it is a fairly new idea.
However, it seem that the MTA's priorities are ideas, and not on actually building anything that is necessary.
N Bwy
For me, building an N/W extension to LaGuardia Airport is important. However, it all depends on who you talk to sir.
N Bwy
Oh BY THE WAY! since you are in favor of the Flushing extension, which happens to be in MANHATTAN! (I always hate that place anyway!) would you support an extension of the N/W F/E/J/Z/A HUH?
I would also love to see express service created on the J line from Supthin Blvd to Eastern Parkway. Would you be supportive of that too?
We, the residence of Queens and Brooklyn, are always the first ones to come forward to pay for these expensive projects that are all base in Manhattan. Meanwhile, Queens and Brooklyn continues to be neglected by over crowded subways that most people have to take buses to.
N Bwy
PS: All we get is an extra tunnel and Manhattan gets a second Avenue subway, a Flushing Extension, and a FULTON complex. NOT FAIR!!!!
It's nowhere near track capacity and it is less than service levels from previous years.
having additional rolling stock couldn't improve service
Additional rolling stock is required to operate more rush hour trains because the fleet is maxed out at present service levels.
#6 operating with 2 minutes headways at times
Not even close. The schedule reads every 2-4 minutes, however Table 5B-2 of the SAS-SDEIS states that the number of locals 21 tph. This comes to one train every 2 minutes and 51 seconds.
Signals keeping trains at safe distance from each other...
That's a key problem with the TA's operational strategy. The signal system is only supposed to ensure that a train's speed and position provide a safe braking distance to the train in front.
The signal system should not be used to regulate train frequency because minimum stopping distance spacing is not what is required to operate at track capacity in an efficient manner. Systems that do operate close to track capacity (36-42 tph) use a separate system that is completely separate from the signal system to regulate train separation. N.B. train separation at track capacity is always greater than safe braking distance so safety is never compromised.
It has been noted before here, but probably bears saying again, that there are two different, to some extent contradictory, justifications for transit improvements. (1) To open up for development areas that currently have poor access - one result of the development being aa improved tax take for the city afterwards, but another being windfall capital gains for people who just happen to own property there. (2) To relieve intolerable congestion on existing transport routes - almost by definition that implies that the area in question is pretty heavily developed already, and as the transit routes afterwards will presumably be less crowded overall, the total *new* farebox take may not be terribly good - people just shift from the overcrowded route to the new one.
The first kind are often associated with external events - an Olympic Games, say - that need an area of underdeveloped land to work with.
But this is racial prejudice and ignorance, not economic harm. We must acknowledge it, but we need not pander to it.
"However, the same holds for people living in low rent districts, when a subway comes. Those now living in rent stabilized or rent controlled walkups from East Harlem to the East Village will see their buildings demolished and replaced higher density and higher priced building stock, as certainly had Robert Moses decided to build a Title I housing project."
Yes, that is certainly possible - but that is why the city tells developers that a percentage of housing stock must ber reserved for those of moderate incomes. It will be a lower percentage than what was there before the subway arrived, of course.
"For those who believe that there is merit to economic and cultural diversity in neighborhoods, subways can become homogenizers."
The number 7 subway and the WMATA's Red Line are living proof that your statement is false.
There is a big difference between "moderate" incomes and some of the subsistence incomes that these "moderate" incomes surplant.
The number 7 subway and the WMATA's Red Line are living proof that your statement [subways can become homogenizers] is false.
First off, where happened to your reading skills. The qualifier that I placed in my statement means that one or more counter examples are not sufficient to prove my statement false and only a single supporting example is required to prove my statement true.
I cannot speak about the Red Line but I believe that the Flushing Line proves rather than disproves my thesis.
The question is a matter of time. Flushing has had two great building booms: after completion of the Flushing Line (1928) and the rush to build on all vacant land before the zoning change in the early 1960's.
I wasn't around in 1928 but before and after photos are dramatic. Flushing became a predominantly Irish & German area as a result. I have been acquainted with Flushing since 1951. The early 1960's boom was equally dramatic. Flushing became predominantly Jewish.
However, people's lives and their needs are short. The second law of thermodynamics applies over time - entropy increases. It takes a generation - 20 to 30 years.
The point I was making is that the initial effect of large scale construction - as a result of a new subway or other cause - is to homogenize a neighborhood. This may be partly due to the real estate sales people going after the same socio-economic-ethnic group to sell or rent the properties they have just built. The diversity aspect comes much later, when the reasons that attracted a group and held it together no longer apply.
As to the housing stock, yes, there is a differenvce between moderate and subsistence housing. But the city can demand even a percentage of low income housing to be dedicated.
Some destitute residents will be displaced, no doubt. They will resettle elsewhere. For them, the SAS is not good news. So be it.
Is that part of the SAS EIS or is on relying on the real estate industry's good faith?
No, it's relying on citizens to let their elected officials know they want that as a condition when developers apply to make investments near the new subway.
But obviously, you won't be one of those citizens, since you've confirmed many times you do not wish to participate in that process. You prefer to dwell solely on Subtalk. :0)
Those real estate developers have already bought those elected officials.
It might as well be a subway. Better reason than most, eh?
State Wants $15 Million for Light Rail Line
Mark
Funny how the article starts out saying “light rail” and then rapidly turns into the following:
“The light rail line was first proposed between Louis Armstrong International Airport and the New Orleans Central Business District.
But it could be expanded to include commuter and freight service along the New Orleans-Baton Rouge corridor and increase travel between the two cities for Louisiana State University, New Orleans Saints and New Orleans Hornets games, Forster said…
They had better make up their minds as to what they want, light rail or commuter rail. LRT, by far, would never have the capacity that commuter rail could have, nor the speeds of commuter rail—nobody would tolerate riding a 60-mph LRV with city-bus seats for two hours when they could have more comfortable commuter trains traveling at 79 mph at the very least. Not to mention the talk about freight service—the FRA still very much excludes LRT and freight sharing the same corridor at the same times of day, thereby making commuter rail the cheaper option by far.
Did Louisiana ever have any interurban lines? I think of interurbans as being a primarily Northern phenomenon, except for notable exceptions in the border states, Texas and a few other scattered areas like the P&N.
Frank Hicks
It sure does sound like what's needed isn't Light Rail, but a proper interurban. Probably something like the South Shore line
Given that the NICTD’s South Shore service is almost pure commuter rail nowadays (apart from the street-running in Michigan City IN), a comparable service (full-blown commuter rail, and not the nowadays-unclearly-defined “interurban”—is it light-rail or heavy-rail now?) is what New Orleans-Baton Rouge ought to go with. It certainly would be less money to fix up existing rights-of-way as well as existing railroad stations, even if disused, versus creating new street-running…
Which I hope they do. There are freight lines coming right into downtown Baton Rogue, right along the waterfront on the east banks of the Mississippi, the perfect place for a commuter rail station.
Mark
I think the tipoff is in this phrase from the article:The line could be in operation within 18 months after the financing is lined up.
There's no way you can build a light-rail line as we know them (e.g. the Hudson-Bergen line) in 18 months. This has to be a commuter-rail type operation on existing tracks. Fix up the tracks a bit, lay down some strips of asphalt for platforms, set up some shacks for stations, buy some locos and some coaches (maybe lease them from an existing operation that has spares), and away you go.
I think the tipoff is in this phrase from the article:The line could be in operation within 18 months after the financing is lined up.
There's no way you can build a light-rail line as we know them (e.g. the Hudson-Bergen line) in 18 months. This has to be a commuter-rail type operation on existing tracks. Fix up the tracks a bit, lay down some strips of asphalt for platforms, set up some shacks for stations, buy some locos and some coaches (maybe lease them from an existing operation that has spares), and away you go.
MetroRail is on time, MetroBus may have some detours
VRE Manassas Line experiencing delays of at least 30 minutes due to a slow order related to flash flood warnings
VRE Fredricksburg Line experiencing delays due to a signal problem (according to WTOP's Lisa Baden)
MARC Frederick service cancelled, passengers may take 991 bus from Monocacy
MARC Brunswick Line experiencing major delays
MARC Camden Line late (according to WTOP's Lisa Baden)
Ride-On buses are delayed due to rain, routes 1, 2, 20, 22, and 32 are on detours
No word on the other bus systems but they are most likely delayed but running
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
He still wears the crown with pride.
--Mark
I don't normally do this, but...
IAWTP!
Peace,
ANDEE
If there was no Don Harold, there would be NO Transit Museum and NO museum cars. Yes, no Triplex's, BMT Standards, "Gate" cars to name a few. Think about it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Footnotes
(a) R22 storm door (b) R62 interior (c) Rail Adhesion Car (d)First/last in World's Fair Series (e) Subway Series 2000 car (f) Modified interior (g) Green "EXP" sign (h) Number plate lower on car side (j) World's Fair "named car" (k) LCD "LOCAL/EXP" Sign
Take a look.
OK, does anyone know the numbers?
Of all the cars you listed, 9712-13, 9327 are the only ones still here worth saving. But 9712-13 are in bad shape (yes, I mean it), their number plates are rusted, sills gone, the 2000 Subway Series markings covered in filth. They need some paint and polish before the are restored.
The Amtrak cars: 9576-77, TOO BAD, they're gone.
But of the remaining R36, some could be saved, but need paint, polish, body work, so on. There has to be some remaining R36 cars with unique features.
As MTA MCI #1979/R62A 1979 said, "all R36 will be reefed", if some R36 are kept, some ML 29 or 33 should be reefed in its place.
-Stef
-Stef
P.S.--- and the cars are still OPERATIONAL!
Just don't take them too far, lest that conduit running into the side of the car breaks loose...
Check out SImCity's (4) new Rush Hour Expansion Pack
I have SimCity 4... i don't play it too much as my processor (600MhZ) is too slow.
Kinda sad that 600 MHz is too "slow".
Damn Sims made EA money hungry. Now you get a base product and have to buy expansion packs for any decent features.
I have a Athlon XP 1800 processor in my machine, and even this is not powerful enough once you get a decent sized city up and running.
I find that hard to believe. It may not run smoothly at 1600x1200, but it should be fine at lower resolutions, right? I have an Athlon XP 2100+ that I can overclock to an XP 2800+. I might get this game.
You should have better performance with a 2100+. This is off topic already...but you are able to overclock to 2800? Is that a stable overclock? I woudln't trust the Athlon core to take such a significant jump unless I had some kind of really fancy cooling going on...and even then I'm not sure.
My next proc. is going to be a p4 anyway.
I assume that the sim city 3d engine isn't very good -- I can play FS2004 at pretty high detail levels with no frame rate drop and flight simulator has always been notorious for performance problems w/ less then the newest hardware.
I resemble that comment:-) Flight Sim hogs memory, refresh rates, CPU clock cycles; then try running all that on a Win 95 machine ( previous FS versions ) with the random freezing that would occur!
R-32.
I resemble that comment:-) Flight Sim hogs memory, refresh rates, CPU clock cycles; then try running all that on a Win 95 machine ( previous FS versions ) with the random freezing that would occur!
R-32.
It's pretty darn stable. I have some other issues but I think they are unique to me. I de-overclocked it for the summer, but I think I'm going to go back to overclocking next week.
Sim City 4 is pretty hefty, you'd want a least a Ghz chip, and a good video card.
If you want to see all of the new "eye candy" in games like doom 3 and half life 2, make sure you pick up a card that supports the new DirectX 9 features---either a GeForce FX5900 Ultra (nvidia) or a Radeon 9800 Pro(ati) based card is what I would go with.
The regular version definitely doesn't.
I am going to buy the deluxe version of the game which includes the game and the expansion pack.
The deluxe version is for people who do not own the original game. People who own Sim City 4 and want the Rush Hour expansion pack should buy the pack, and not the deluxe version of SC4.
By John Christoffersen, Associated Press
STAMFORD — Most of the trains were bought when President Nixon was
engulfed in the Watergate scandal. They run hundreds of miles per
day at speeds of up to nearly 100 mph.
The trains break down a lot. Occasionally they catch fire. The
bathrooms are notoriously smelly and sometimes the air conditioning
fails.
The New Haven line of Metro-North Railroad is the nation's busiest,
bringing 110,000 commuters to their jobs in New York and Connecticut
every day. The rail service, which is experiencing steady increases
in ridership, is considered a vital alternative to gridlocked
highways.
But the 380-car New Haven line fleet includes 241 cars purchased
between 1972 to 1975. Officials are trying to squeeze another decade
of life out of the trains by replacing critical parts. The $149
million program began earlier this year and is expected to take
several years.
"We have a fleet that is old, breaking down and it is under
substantial pressure from increased demands," said Harry Harris,
chief of public transportation for the Connecticut Department of
Transportation.
The state is conducting a study — to be completed in the spring —
with the aim of eventually buying a new fleet and maintenance
facility with a combined cost of more than $1 billion.
Officials are trying to figure are what type of cars to buy; one
option under study involves double-decker trains. They don't know
yet how the new fleet will be funded.
Commuter advocates and train officials are increasingly anxious
about the existing cars.
"It's time to put them out to pasture," said Jim Cameron, vice
chairman of the Connecticut Metro-North Rail Commuter Council, a
watchdog group. "The cars are so old and in such a state of
disrepair that on any given day 15 percent of the fleet is in the
shop for repairs."
That means trains often show up short of cars, causing more crowding
as a growing number of commuters must stand, Cameron said. The
repair program is moving too slowly to keep up with new problems, he
said.
"We're sending contradictory messages," Cameron said, noting that
officials have been encouraging mass transit but not investing
enough money.
Shelley Houser said she frequently stands during her commute from
Fairfield to her job in Stamford. She said she doesn't mind the age
of the trains as long as they are on time — "and no one opens the
bathroom door."
Just then a fellow passenger opened the dreaded door.
"Darn it," she said.
Bill Sayles, who takes the train from Milford to his job in
Westport, also brought up the bathrooms. He said it's time for new
trains.
"You can fix it so many times. Then eventually it becomes obsolete,"
Sayles said.
The state Transportation Strategy Board, which was formed in
response to the congestion crisis, has recommended to lawmakers that
new rail cars be purchased as quickly as possible. Rail cars are
among several projects the board must prioritize to determine how to
spend transportation funds set aside by the legislature.
Metro-North spokesman Dan Brucker agreed the New Haven fleet needs
to be replaced.
"We are running out of time," Brucker said. "The average age of the
New Haven fleet is the oldest on our system. More and more customers
are using older equipment which is requiring more and more time out
for major repairs."
Cameron said Connecticut officials won't pay attention until someone
gets injured in one of the electrical fires. He predicted some
commuters will eventually get fed up and move out of state if the
fleet is not replaced.
"No one in Hartford has taken this issue seriously," Cameron
said. "I know we had budget problems. But we're also losing the
people as taxpayers if they're forced to stand and pay $300 per
month for the privilege."
Harris pointed to the program to replace critical parts and said
officials are spending about $300 million to replace overhead wires
on the tracks.
"He knows as well as I do that that we are fiscally constrained and
we are doing everything we can to fix up the system," Harris
said. "Clearly it is a major challenge."
On the Net:
Metro North — http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr
Connecticut Rail Commuter Council — http://www.trainweb.org/ct
AP-ES-09-21-03 1133EDT
They don't know the Conductor Window Run. If you see a car without a conductor's window, it's a bathroom car -- you run past it before the doors close, to the next car, which probably doesn't smell. If the doors close.
I probably can't even teach them the Knee Prop, to keep them from sliding off the seat, or a One Door Squeeze.
September 23, 2003
By PAUL MELLER
BRUSSELS, Sept. 22 - The troubled French engineering
company Alstom appeared saved from near-certain bankruptcy
today when the European Commission approved a short-term
bailout, involving the French government and creditor
banks, worth 3.2 billion euros ($3.66 billion).
The French government had until midnight tonight to propose
a short-term solution for Alstom that did not breach the
European Union's state aid laws. Failure to comply would
have triggered a court injunction to prevent France from
taking any further action on behalf of Alstom.
The European commissioner for competition, Mario Monti,
welcomed the agreement. He told journalists that France had
agreed at the last moment to a deal that would not involve
the French government taking a direct equity stake in
Alstom.
France had first planned to buy about 30 percent of Alstom
to reassure private investors, so they would finance most
of the recapitalization of the company.
Instead, the French government will not buy into the
company but will lend it 800 million euros, 300 million
euros as convertible bonds and 500 million euros as bonds
and loans with maturities of up to 15 years.
The bonds would not be convertible until after the
commission completes its investigation of French aid to
Alstom in about six months, Mr. Monti said.
The deal also envisions Alstom's creditor banks injecting
2.4 billion euros into the company: 300 million euros in
shares, 900 million euros in convertible bonds and 1.2
billion euros in subordinated loans.
Patrick Kron, Alstom's chief executive, said in Paris: "The
new package provides Alstom with a strong base from which
to move ahead. It meets our fundamental objective: a
substantial increase in our equity base, with the prospect
of the French state becoming a shareholder if the European
Commission, following its review, grants approval."
The government of the French prime minister, Jean-Pierre
Raffarin, also hailed the deal. "Alstom is saved," Mr.
Raffarin said today. "Confirmation has come from all
partners."
The commission has no say over the ownership of companies,
but when a government steps in to help a struggling
company, the European Union's competition commission may
object if it thinks the government is not behaving as a
rational private investor.
Mr. Monti said he expected Alstom's banks to sign up to the
deal.
Alstom employs 110,000 people worldwide, around 26,000 in
France alone. It makes France's high-speed TGV trains and
its turbines generate electricity to a fifth of the world.
Mr. Monti said the political pressure on him to agree to a
solution that would save the company was intense.
"There were powerful calls at the highest political levels
in France and in other countries for the commission to be
flexible in this case," the commissioner said, adding that
some critics said that the injunction itself would have
been enough to push Alstom into bankruptcy.
President Jacques Chirac of France and Chancellor Gerhard
Schröder of Germany, as well as French union leaders are
reported to have urged Mr. Monti to be lenient.
By permitting France to lend the company 800 million euros,
some argue that Mr. Monti had indeed bowed to pressure.
That amount exceeds the 600 million euro equity stake
France planned to take in Alstom.
Mr. Monti, however, claimed victory in the standoff with
Paris.
"France modified its plan. If it didn't, then the
injunction would have gone," he said, adding that the
Alstom case shows that "no matter how large a member state
is, the rules are there and must be observed."
Alstom's problems began three years ago, when it revealed
problems with gas turbines it had bought from the Swiss
engineering company ABB that cost it over 1 billion euros
in charges.
The next blow came in September 2001 when Renaissance
Cruises, a major Alstom shipping-building client based in
Florida, went bankrupt.
Last year, Alstom embarked on a restructuring plan called
Restore Value. In March this year, the company dismissed
its chairman, Pierre Bilger, and announced a new
restructuring plan, Restore Value II.
Then in August the French government decided to intervene
to save the company. The commission, which is dealing with
three other state aid cases involving France, balked at the
plan to buy a stake in Alstom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23alst.html?ex=1065325598&ei=1&en=a08c657cd5b9c912
I guess we'll find out in a few years.
I guess we'll find out in a few years.
They don't know the Conductor Window Run. If you see a car without a conductor's window, it's a bathroom car -- you run past it before the doors close, to the next car, which probably doesn't smell. If the doors close.
I probably can't even teach them the Knee Prop, to keep them from sliding off the seat, or a One Door Squeeze.
TSQ_GCT Shuttle link. Scroll down to the portion of the page on the automated SAM.
I've never seen a map like that. Is it new? And it was a (4) map - I checked.
It runs local, but not at Hoyt.
Look at this track map
The only place #4 trains can switch to the local is north of Atlantic Avenue, so it has to run express to Nevins, then switch to the local to stop at the local stations from Atlantic to New Lots. If you need Hoyt at night, use the 2. It always stops there.
JFK AirTrain Coming this Fall, With High Fares
According to the Port Authority, it is on track to open the entire JFK AirTrain system in November of this year. The service will connect JFK to the A train at Howard Beach and the J,M, Z subways and LIRR at Jamaica.
The Port Authority says the one-way fare for the JKF AirTrain will be $5, from both Jamaica and Howard Beach. On the LIRR, this means about a $10-$12 airport fare. On the subway, it would mean a $7 trip, not counting MetroCard discounts. JFK parking fees, on the other hand, run $10 a day in long term lots, with a free AirTrain ride to terminals. If it will not offer lower fares, the Port Authority needs to consider significant parking rate increases to make the AirTrain more competitive. Monthly Airtrain passes will be available for $40.
Riders of Newark Airport's Airtrain pay about $11 one-way to get to terminals from NYC's Penn Station and up to $8 from Newark Penn Station, while drivers pay only $8 a day for parking and ride the monorail free. Early on, the Newark AirTrain exceeded ridership estimates, but it is unclear if ridership has continued to grow since 2001, especially given recent air travel trends.
Regular Newark riders, such as airport workers, can use "SmartLink," a monthly card that combines NJ Transit and AirTrain fares, at a significant discount. For example, the monthly cost to ride from Penn Station, Newark on NJ Transit to Newark Airport (including both the NJ Transit and Airtrain rides) would be $96 with the SmartLink card, compared to the full price of $272.
The M goes to Middle Village and not Jamaica, while the article forgot to mention the E train that DOES go to Jamaica Center.
DUH!
At least they aren't saying Metro-North instead of LIRR.
On equity grounds, since for years profits from New York's airports have been used to fund PATH, how can the Port Authority justify having an Airtrain fare that exceeds the PATH fare? The same may be said of the short ride to Newark. Why are transit riders being made to pay the whole cost, with those in parking lots not paying at all?
On a practical level, it just won't work. They'll get some employees, but they might get fewer Airtrain riders than they did shuttle bus riders. Maybe that's what they want -- no Brooklynites on the train. But the swells won't provide enough ridership, and too many of them ride Limos. It's that kinds of narrow marketing that sunk the WUSA.
Of course that's what they want. It's what we all want on any train.
This thing was built for the employees and employers -- the $40 monthly fare makes that as plain as the nose on one's face -- travelers and their $5 are just gravy. For $2 per day per employee, they just brought the airport 15-20 minutes closer to much of Queens than it ever was.
CG
CG
That's a tax, paid for by those who will also be paying the $5 fare (and everyone else).
CG
Of course. So why should they pay $5.00 for the Airtrain as well? In addition to the landing fees they pay for in their ticket, on which JFK makes a profit.
And the Q10 will now be handling a lot more traffic. Will more service be added on the line? Thought not.
On the other hand, I can guess that the $5 fare will be charged at the non-airport endpoints, so no one can reasonably use it as a shortcut from Howard Beach to Jamaica without paying $10. It will probably be pay-as-you-enter at Howard Beach or Jamaica and pay-as-you-exit at Howard Beach or Jamaica. Of course if one buys the $40/month pass, it may be useful as a great connection from Rockaway to Jamaica, but only in that case.
It's worth noting that the average income of JFK passengers is lower than that of EWR and LGA passengers, and by a not-inconsiderable margin. Limo-riding swells (your typical suit-covered-anus types) may not be using JFK in great numbers.
I find that statement intriguing. Do you have supporting data? And what would be the expalnation - that more of them are foreigners?
I don't recall the source, but I probably could find it with a little searching. Yet it makes sense. A fair number of JFK passengers are immigrants, both those newly arriving in the United States and U.S. residents returning to their homelands for visits. American Airlines, in particular, has a large number of flights from JFK to the Carribean and South America, areas with heavy immigration. Not all of these people are poor, of course, but enough of them are that they can pull down the averages. More recently, JetBlue has been growing rapidly at JFK, and as a discount airline it probably tends to attract more people of modest means than do the full-fare "cartel" carriers.
How effective are transfers from BART to Muni and vice-versa?
The point however about the SFO line is exactly opposite. Concurrent with the opening of direct rail service, the cheap and effective express bus from the then closest BART statiobn was abolished. That bus was a Sam Trans operation useable with a local pass @ $40/month. Now the same trip is $3 + each way NO DISCOUNT for the thousands of concession workers. Monthly commute jumped from 40 to $140. Not exactly painless.
BART service to Millbrae isn't such a bad idea; are developers being allowed to anchor off of the new stations?
Interesting analogy. Did you know that for years, people were proposing to extend the IRT #7 to the Meadowlands (site of NJT's large park and ride bus facility)?
CG
I took a cab back to the airport -- the cabbie said that he didn't feel the BART extension was eating into his business.
CG
Let's see, Brooklynites use Atlantic Av LIRR station, East New York, Nostrand Av stations; they go to Jamaica, they get on AirTrain.
Brooklynites use the A train. They get on, they ride to Howard Beach, they have access to AirTrain.
Do you want to rant, Mitch, or do you want your posts taken seriously?
Who on earth is going to take a $30-40 taxi to the airport rather than the subway plus Airtrain just because, in addition to the subway, the Airtrain is another $4.17?
I can see some really frugal people taking the Lefferts bus instead of Airtrain, but not a taxi.
Well, consider the calculations for my family of four flying out of JFK. We have three options: park locally, take the subway and Airtrain; park locally, take car service; and park at the airport, take the Airtrain for free.
At five bucks a head each way, it's $40 to take the Airtrain round trip, plus $6.68 for the subway (wife and I have monthlys, we get the discount on the card we use for the kids), total of $46.68 round trip. At $2.00 a head, it would be $16 for the Airtrain plus the $6.68, total of $22.68 round trip. That would make a difference relative to those other options.
If they ride the subway, they pay $40 round-trip (before discounts) to ride AirTrain.
If they drive, they pay $30 to park the car and ride AirTrain round-trip.
Is parking so plentiful in this city that we pay $10 to anyone willing to gobble up a space for three days?
Subway plus AirTrain fare is $5.83 per person after discounts. For a family of four, that's $23.33 each way. It's only $10-15 more for a cab, which will probably make better time and which will certainly require less dragging of luggage from one vehicle to another.
And, again, there would be no issue if the PA were offering a new service, at whatever price, in addition to all of the existing options. The Howard Beach branch is taking the place of the free shuttle bus. The people who currently ride the shuttle bus don't want to spend $5.83 to get to the airport.
I certainly would. The shuttle buses are vile.
If the PA wanted to run decent shuttle bus service from the subway to the terminals, it could have been done very easily. For a very modest sum in capital construction costs, there could have been express shuttle buses with cross-platform subway access, offering faster, more frequent, and more convenient service than AirTrain at a fraction of the cost.
But that isn't what the PA wanted.
Incidentally, have you ever actually transferred from the subway to the shuttle bus? IIRC, you once drove to the airport and rode the shuttle bus from the parking lot. So you'll have free access to AirTrain anyway. Apparently the people who are willing to pay aren't going to be charged a fare, while the people who are unwilling to pay will be charged a fare.
Even the best-run shuttle buses are going to have to deal with the often-heavy traffic on JFK's convoluted roadways. Note that Terminal 6 is the farthest one from the subway and long-term parking and probably has the heaviest shuttle ridership.
My earliest memory of the USA - my first visit 35 years ago - is of totally clogged traffic in JFK and the shuttle bus inching along, taking literally hours to get off the airport.
Maybe that is the biggest reason why airtrain was built. To have people get to/from JFK without geting caught in traffic.
Last time I even took the Q10. Of course, it took a little while for Q10 to make its grand tour of the airport, before I got to my terminal, but still there was no traffic whatsoever.
But $5 for a ride on a new rail line above a string of parking lots, replacing a fare-free frequent bus, is a terrible deal.
If AirTrain indeed opens with a uniform $5 fare, and ridership figures do not support it, then the PA can change it.
But the Port Authority is a public agency that receives public funding. It has an obligation to serve the taxpaying public. The question you're addressing is whether a $5 fare on the Howard Beach leg is a wise business decision; the question the rest of us are asking is whether a $5 fare on the Howard Beach leg properly serves the taxpaying public.
You're wrong, actually. The Port Authority does not tax; it collects fees from users. It is a monopoly in the sense that if you don't like the fees at Kennedy, you cannot go to the other Kennedy down the street to get a better deal.
But otherwise, the PA acts more like a private, though "non-profit" business and therefore it is acting exactly as it should.
But it is a quasi-governmental body, and it has powers that private corporations do not have. In exchange, it is accountable to the public.
The same way a regulated monopoly would be. If you are advocating that a PUC type commission should approve the PA's fare-setting on AirTrain, PATH, the tollways etc. that is a reasonable proposal.
Bus services can be more flexible than train services. For instance. some buses could run nonstop from the subway directly to Terminal 6. In fact, I'd have all buses from the subway run nonstop to the terminals; that way, buses going toward the subway can collect fares and drop their passengers off at the subway platform itself. (Where does that leave the parkers? I don't know, and frankly, I don't much care. If they want a train to the terminals, they can pay for one themselves rather than riding fare-free on the backs of subway riders.)
Which makes it inherently impractical. The enforcement would never be good enough to make it work, and cars and buses would still get in the way of each other even if enforcement were good enough. And the number of enforcement personnel you would have to add would kill part of the plan's cost-effectiveness. The current police force has enough to do as it is.
You'd have a very tough time demonstrating that your plan would actually work at Kennedy.
When was the last time you parked illegally in Manhattan? What happened next?
Good in theory, but reality is often a bit muddled.
Even if properly enforced, you're still mixing traffic. I suppose one way around that is to put buses in their dedicated lane arriving at the curb (closest to terminal doors) and leave cars to fend for themselves in the other lanes.
You still don't have a plan to test the efficacy of your proposal, and the burden of proof would be on you before the PA or any other agency would take it seriously.
I have within the last 2 years, but cannot comment on anything that's happened in 2003. If conditions have changeed very recently, then my comments may not be valid.
"I think every terminal with the exception of 8/9 (which is undergoing massive construction) has dedicated bus drop off lanes with effective enforcement."
In the context of our discussion, I would not consider that to be true. Unless something has happened within the last year, conditions at Kennedy would not support bus service which would be more effective than rail service.
One of the terminals (I forget which one, the one where traffic goes under it, instead of next to it) even has some tunnels reserved for buses only.
Terminal 3, used for Delta's international flights and by some of your more dubious foreign carriers.
Evidently not, if they have time to hassle railfans.
Last time I was at the airport they already had one lane in front of my terminal reserved for the buses, and had a security guard there to make sure only buses went in.
OK. That's good. Let's see how long they keep that up.
Rather unfair to the long-term parkers, who may not always have any reasonable alternatives except for parking.
If they are coming from the city, there is AirTrain via LIRR or subway (granted, the latter often involves stations which are not luggage-friendly at the start of the trip to the airport or arriving from the airport).
If they are coming from the Island, they can try to park at the LIRR if feasible; if not a cab ride to LIRR or LI Bus ride to LIRR or having somebody drop them off at LIRR is cheaper than a cab ride to the airport.
So there are always reasonable alternatives. It's a matter of preference, not a lack of choices.
Agreed as to city residents. I was thinking more in terms of Nassau and Sufflok residents.
If they are coming from the Island, they can try to park at the LIRR if feasible; if not a cab ride to LIRR or LI Bus ride to LIRR or having somebody drop them off at LIRR is cheaper than a cab ride to the airport.
Parking at LIRR stations often isn't possible. Taxi rides in Nassau and Suffolk are expensive - a month ago, my stepdaughter paid $25 for a taxi from ISP to Medford, a distance of six or seven miles - and taxi service isn't always reliable. Getting someone to give you a ride to and from an LIRR station can be problematic. All in all, driving and parking often (not always, but often) is the best option.
I hadn't considered that. Good point. If you call a cab and the cab doesn't show up hal;f the time, then that's bad news.
So there's LI Bus and Suffolk Transit to the LIRR, though that's not going to be convenient for everyone, especially in Suffolk. Airport employees will use it, straphangers going to the airport on the cheap will use that option as well.
Who regulates cabs and car services on the Island?
I was certainly spoiled in Bayside; if I didn't want to walk home from the Bayside station and was too lazy or tired to wait for the Q12, Kelly's Car Service was right there and either they or a competing service not far away could be called on short notice to pick me up from the house.
Ironic, isn't it? When you DON'T need a taxi, there are hordes of them. When you DO need one out in some boonie, you can't find one to save your life (actually, it makes sense - if you have other options the can driver has to be nice to you). But it's still ironic.
Dunno for sure, maybe the Nassau and Suffolk DOT's. I do know that a fair amount of the taxi business, in Suffolk at least, involves agreements with the social services department, bringing people to medical appointments and things like that.
Oh. Wait.
They may be doing that already. The costs of airport parking, even at the long-term lots, surely are far in excess of what it costs to operate the parking facilities.
No capital outlay is necessary. Everytime I go to the airport, I spend 15-20 minutes sitting in the parked bus in front of the subway station. Meanwhile, behind me, four or five other empty buses remain queued up. On the way to the airport, we pass a parking lot where another dozen or so shuttle buses are sitting unused.
There are enough shuttle buses available to run them at 2-3 minute headways. And I wouldn't call them vile. They are relatively clean, air conditioned, and have clear, automated announcements.
Capital construction would be required to give the shuttle bus a cross-platform transfer to or from the subway. Here's the basic idea: At the terminals, subway fares would be collected on the bus. After stopping at the terminals, the bus would run express to the subway, turning left just before the tracks, dropping off its passengers at a new bus stop across the platform from the northbound track (inside fare control). The bus would then cross the tracks on a new bridge just south of the station and stop again at another new bus stop across the platform from the southbound track (also inside fare control), to pick up passengers. After crossing the tracks on another bridge just north of the station, the bus would proceed nonstop to the terminals.
At peak times, each bus would serve only a few terminals, speeding up service even further.
The current service isn't quite as bad as it's made out to be, but it could certainly use improvement. Ideally, it would be replaced with direct A train service, with no transfer or extra fare at Howard Beach. But seeing as that's not going to happen any time soon, the bus service I describe is a reasonable compromise. It's both more convenient and less costly than AirTrain.
On Subtalk, yes. On your living room floor in HO gauge, yes. In real life - you'd have to prove it, and you don't have the data right now to back up any of your opinions.
When AirTrain begins operation, you'll have some data.
I guess we can call this RoninBSism, anything that Ron says is always right and anything that contradicts with that is incorrect.
He always, I never, eh? You said that, not me.
Peace,
ANDEE
All right, for pickin' on RonInBayside like that, u kinda suck. But yeah, it was funny, the way you expressed that. I thought the same thing. About how funny it was, (the spelling of realize) not the mean stuff. So for that, good one.
Nope. RonInBS is a shithead and deserves to be picked on like that. If you hadn't noticed, RonInBS frequently responds to posts and insults their ideas without actually reading the content, is patronizing to others, is a filthy bigot even though he calls himself tolerant (I guess a Nazi is tolerant if he likes Asians), tells people he disagrees with that they should do their "homework" even though he never bothers doing research himself.
It is true that I started this particular confrontation against Ron, but I've decided to take the offensive against him, since it was quite clear from earlier responses from him to me that he will continue to insult me even if I do not provoke him.
I found that my response to him was rather primitive because insulting someone's spelling is pretty low, but if Ron wants to insult someone's intelligence again, he should at least spell his insults correctly.
If you want to learn how to do research properly, I'll be glad to teach you. But first you have to get past the schoolboy act and mature a little. Show us you can post like an adult and I for one treat you like one. You don't have enough perspective, education and experience to post more than "book learning," though "book learning" is certainly good in and of itself. That problem will take care of itself, so long as you continue to pursue knowledge. I fear though, that by clinging to the myth that you already have the same tools in your head as anybody else 20-30 years ahead of you, you will miss out on a lot of learning and growing opportunities.
Oh well.
I do that every day. But your post shows you may have a problem. Would you consider talking with your parents, or a counselor?
Gee, I'm impressed. D you treat all your adult relatives respectfully as your mother, or is she a special case?
It's nice that you're acting more egalitarian now by allowing others to post insults, since you've been doing that all along.
I've never insulted you. In fact, I like you. I'm trying to get you over some rough spots, that's all. When you fall down, I've been there to help you get up.
Yes you have, you've belittled me exclusively because of my age. If you wanted to belittle or attack my ideas, then you are perfectly welcome, but there's no point bringing in a herring.
I love herring - whether in wine or cream sauce. Don't you like it?:0)
I don't belittle your age at all. It's OK to be your age. Enjoy it and savor it and don't grow old too fast.
By the way, your post about plate tectonics was awesome. I did an extensive research project in high school about that, and you've brought back some memories for me. Stuff that I learned and forgot a long time ago.
What do see yourself doing in 5 years?
No thanks, I'd definitely benefit more by learning from a chimpanzee.
But first you have to get past the schoolboy act and mature a little.
First YOU have to get past the BIGOT act and grow a brain. The only reason you consider me to have a "schoolboy act" is that you happen to know my approximate age and you have a thing against anybody who is under 25. I also remember you attacking aem7 when you disagreed with him. As far as you're concerned, people younger than 43 should be seen and not heard. I will not subscribe to that. If you feel there are other reasons you should not respect me, then go ahead, post evidence of that. If you were truly the researcher you claim you are, you'd be able to.
Show us you can post like an adult and I for one treat you like one.
Where have I shown otherwise? You on the other hand have shown that you will not post like anything but a pathetic self-proclaimed know-it-all who really knows jack squat.
You don't have enough perspective, education and experience to post more than "book learning," though "book learning" is certainly good in and of itself.
You have no idea what I have and don't have. I guess maybe under your design for a society, people under 25 cannnot be respected, while people over 30 who have no knowledge whatsoever can go ahead and pull facts out of their ass. You have shown with your posts on this board that you are capable of NOTHING MORE than pulling facts out of your ass. I do not intend to ever pull facts out of my ass, you however can continue to do and watch your now-gone credibility go further down the toilet.
I fear though, that by clinging to the myth that you already have the same tools in your head as anybody else 20-30 years ahead of you
it isn't a myth, it is perfect truth, it is as much a myth as the myth of Black or female equality. I may not have as much experience as somebody 22 years older than I am, but experience is worthless without knowledge and reason, you show that clearly in your posts. Your "experience" makes you think you are better than everyone, yet you fail to demonstrate this with your other, more important faculties.
you will miss out on a lot of learning and growing opportunities.
Not a big deal, if I do, I'll turn out like you. Maybe you can teach me how to be a selective bigot.
That's hard to imagine, even if the two bridges are paved in gold.
I've ridden the shuttle buses five times in the past two and a half years - flights on AA to LAX (3/2001), AA to SEA (8/2001), HP to PHX (8/2002), B6 to LGB (10/2002) and DL to MCO (8/2003). That's a total of ten round trips. Not once was I on a bus that was decently air conditioned, indeed at least half the time they were stifilingly hot, and most of the times they stank of diesel exhaust. And "relatively clean" is really stretching things.
The earliest memory I have of JFK was as a kid, when my parents and I tried checking in at one terminal and got bumped to a flight on a different carrier at a different terminal. I don't even remember where we were going. But I do remember that it took us an hour to get to the other terminal, riding a hot, crowded shuttle bus crawling through extreme traffic congestion in the central terminal area. It was truly a Third World experience, in 1980's New York. My parents always tried to book flights through EWR after that experience.
AirTrain will be a joy to ride in comparison.
That agrees precisely with my 1968 experience - but recent posters here suggest that things have improved lately.
And reeking of diesel exhaust.
That, of course, is the heart of the matter, and the reason why there is so much grumbling about the Airtrain. It perhaps also explains the relative lack of grumbling about the similar fee at Newark, where (I believe) you could not travel free to a train station before, and the regular NJT bus to Newark Penn and thus to the PATH still runs.
Incidentally, in Sydney, Australia, where they built a rail line to the airport in time for the 2000 Olympics, you have to pay a "gate fee" in addition to your regular train fare to reach the platforms at the airport stations. It is about US$6 (Aus$8.80). As far as I can make out, this fee also applies at the *other* two stations on the new line, which are not on the airport at all, but are in the adjoining fairly downmarket neighbourhood. The bus fare into the CBD from that area would not be more than Aus$3 at the most. I can't imagine these that two beautiful new stations get any patronage at all!
I know. When I used it, no-one objected to my suitcase, but the bus wasn't very full. The fare on the regular NJT bus was $4 in 2001, making a good value $5.50 from midtown NYC to EWR. Oh, but wait a minute, I must be wrong about that good value, people here think that $5.83 from midtown to JFK in 2003 *isn't* good value (8-) !
Also, Pataki's one-city-one-fare program never included New Jersey. Given that it's possible to get from even Nassau County to Manhattan for one subway fare, while it's never been possible to get from New Jersey to Manhattan at that price (except between two points served by PATH), I think it's reasonable to expect that access from JFK to Manhattan would be cheaper than access from New Jersey to Manhattan.
You're making the wrong comparisons. The political tradeoff was that the Port Authority purchased, rehabilitated, and ran PATH in exchange for what New York wanted--the World Trade Center.
Secondly, you're comparing apples and oranges. Compare JFK Airtrain to the Newark Airtrain. Compare a PA airport access link in NJ to one in NY.
I think the link to Newark is also overpriced.
I don't know enough about Newark. I believe that a fare equal to PATH on the Airtrain in Queens would draw enough additional customers to beat the $5 fare in revenues. Of course if fewer people drive and pay to park, that might hurt in another way. That's why the PA didn't want rail access to the airport to begin with.
Possibly.
"Of course if fewer people drive and pay to park, that might hurt in another way. That's why the PA didn't want rail access to the airport to begin with."
False statement, and you know better. It was MTA which was not interested in bringoing rail to JFK, and didn't have the money anyway.
The PA understood that and took the initiative to create rail access. If the PA didn't want rail access they would not have built AirTrain.
I understand your desire to defend your employer, Larry, but you don't have a leg to stand on here. Lack of rail access to the airport prior to AirTrain is strictly the MTA's fault, not the Port Authority's. It is the MKTA which should accept responsibility for that failure.
Look, I was there, in meetings a decade ago, representing City Planning. And I am a former employee of the economics wing of the PA as well. The PA believed people would not use rail, and if they did they would only use it to panhandle at the airport to support their crack habit (remember we're talking late 1980s early 1990s). Yes there were people at the PA in favor, but others were opposed, including the board. Rail access was rammed down the PA's throat, and even thing it was a separate system going direct to the Upper East Side (recall the original plan via the 59th Street bridge). City planning types wanted a direct integration into the regional rail network. As a result, the PA compromised by allowing standard gauge rail, allowing a possible connection in some unknown future.
(I understand your desire to defend your employer, Larry, but you don't have a leg to stand on here. Lack of rail access to the airport prior to AirTrain is strictly the MTA's fault, not the Port Authority's.)
For the past 30 years, the operating agencies have driven the MTA's capital program, and they have been completely focused on rebuilding and improving the system they are required to operate every day. They are more interested in crew rooms, station rehabs, bus depots, yard reconfigurations and lighting, reverse signalling -- anything to make it easier to operate the system more easily reliably -- than in new projects like the SAS. Ie. stuff I never thought of until two years ago, but that has got to get done.
System expansion all comes from outside, and the part that comes from inside is driven by the desire to do what the MTA promised when it was formed -- East Side Access and the SAS. When City Planning and Giliani said they wanted to do N to LGA, the MTA said yes and the PA said well, maybe, and then never helped. The MTA will build whatever it gets money and approval to build, but new construction faces this whole process that reconstruction is exempt from.
That's right, and part of the reason MTA didn't put money into a JFK rail system. They didn't have any money for that, though they did have a ROW.
"Yes there were people at the PA in favor, but others were opposed, including the board. Rail access was rammed down the PA's throat,"
Bullshit. Nobody shoves anything down the PA's throat except the Governor and the board. If the PA built AirTrain it was because the board wanted it.
You were in meetings, but at what level? It doesn't sound to me like you were privy to high-level discussions about this project.
I was a bank teller once and attended meetings about the pros and cons of ATMs. It doesn't mean I knmew what the bank's CEO was thinking.
The TA will take you from Manhattan to Howard Beach for $1.67, and covers most of its operating costs. The LIRR will take you from Manhattan to Jamaica for double that. Yet the Airtrain will charge $5.00 to take you from a few feet outside the airport to the terminal, while not charging at all on the other side of the fence. Yes that's only the operating cost, but a PFC was imposed to cover the capital cost.
I'm not saying it isn't. The proof of whether or not it is too pricey will be the ridership. Too few passengers, and the PA's revenue will slide far down the curve. The PA will figure it out, and you'll see the fare drop,
It is well known that the MTA favours bread-and-butter capital expenditures over totally new lines - that is why the SAS didn't get built the last time around! See Brian Cudahy's Under the Sidewalks of New York.
Don't be confused. The MTA didn't exist back then, and it was formed to build new lines, like the SAS. It is the people who operate the system who are primarily concerned with improving the system they operate.
Which is completely sensible. Trying to expand is a bad idea if the existing system is deteriorating.
Maybe, but from what I've heard ridership is reasonably decent, especially considering the severely depressed state of air travel.
"Maybe, but from what I've heard ridership is reasonably decent, especially considering the severely depressed state of air travel"
And also considering that he NJT service from Newark Airport station to NYC Penn isn't wonderfully frequent. Even the A train from Howard Beach beats it for frequency, and LIRR and subway services from Jamaica are much more frequent
You can expect 3 tph, but not evenly spaced and not including Amtrak. There is a published schedule.
Studies by PATH are not being conducted regarding a PATH extension to Newark AirTrain.
Ron: You can expect 3 tph, but not evenly spaced and not including Amtrak.
Me: Exactly. Not wonderfully frequent.
Ron: Studies by PATH are now being conducted regarding a PATH extension to Newark AirTrain. (Actually Ron said "not" but I think he meant "now".)
Me: I know - it can't come soon enough. If it happens (and NJT seems to be much better at getting lines built than NYCS is these days), EWR will be the airport of choice for visitors to Manhattan. Especially as, from the UK, airfares are a bit cheaper on the EWR routes than the JFK ones as well.
Oh, let's see now ... how does "nobody" sound?
The AirTrain will surpass the New York Coliseum as the most ill-conceived waste of construction money in the last 100 years. While some people will take AirTrain, I think that most people with luggage will pay extra for the convenience of taking a cab from midtown than lug the luggage from the subway or LIRR and then having to switch to AirTrain.
I still believe it would have been less expensive to refurbish the LIRR Rockaway line than build a whole new line.
What about the 37,000 employees at JFK who will ride for $1?
What is the New York Coliseum?
An MTA-owned exhibition hall and convention center on Columbus Circle, built in the late 1950's/early 1960's and closed about ten years ago. Its site is now occupied by the new Time Warner building.
I would not necessarily agree that the Coliseum was a failure. It saw regular use until the Javits Center opened in the mid-1980's. Yes, the Coliseum was by then too small for major conventions, but that couldn't be foreseen at the time it was built. And let's not forget that the Javits Center itself is rapidly becoming obsolete due to its too-small size.
Pretty much, yeah. Conventions are getting bigger and bigger, and space requirements increase accordingly.
New York should be one of the five cities that can host the biggest conventions. Right now it isn't.
In addition to size and competition, the Javits Center of course suffers from lack of transit access. It needs the 7 extension as much as it needs to be enlarged.
Keep our fingers crossed. Construction is due to begin 4th quarter of '04. No NIMBY problems so far (I don't expect any).
It's been a few months since I've been involved with this stuff, but last I remember Javits was in the top 10 centers for size. Not sure now with all the expansions going on in the country, it's not an easy thing to google.
Extending the Shuttle wouldn't be an option because the 1/2/3/9 line is in the way. Nothing blocks a westward extension of the 7, however, except for the disused lower level of the 42nd Street IND.
(Extending the Shuttle wouldn't be an option because the 1/2/3/9 line is in the way. Nothing blocks a westward extension of the 7, however, except for the disused lower level of the 42nd Street IND.)
Recall that my idea was to extend the Shuttle east and south to a ferry terminal at 34th and the East River. Nothing blocks its expansion east, as it is one level up from the Lex (guess the original subway had an upgrade).
Only because you're not familiar at all with the Rockaway line and its problems, have no idea what the politics are, and have no idea how you'd run trains into Manhattan from there (OK, ESA is coming, so as of 2010 or so you have a new ballgame).
"The AirTrain will surpass the New York Coliseum as the most ill-conceived waste of construction money in the last 100 years."
It's easy and convenient to ridicule a project when you have nothing to offer yourself, no idea of how to get an alternative done, and the alternative you do offer is one that cannot physically be accomplished for another ten years and politically maybe never.
Looks like I have to wait for some other time in '04 :(
$1.00 is clearly not enough, and the next bill in your pocket is the $5.
Making change or selling tickets is clearly a waste of time and makes for a bottleneck.
What woould a cab charge for that distance?
Elias
Is President Bush in that area this evening?
GENERAL CLARK FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004.
Well...before 9/11 we certainly did.
You mean sacred anniversary.
Amazing what a misplaced letter or 2 can do to chnage a word.
It happens to the best of us when you type 50 words a minute.
In the other case switching letters in sacred gives you scared.
But then perhaps for some 9/11 is a scared anniversary while for others it is a sacred one.
Maybe he likes the (W)?
Not sure why the entire station had to be closed for that. There are street exits, after all.
I really don't understand WHY they had to close the station if he wasn't inside fare control ... maybe he was concerned that us New York taxpayers, stuck with the bill for 9/11 might have ... aw, nevermind. NEXT year, we'll take care of it in the voting booth.
Not if he and Ashcroft take away our voting rights. They might be able to pull it off at the rate they are going. It will be part of the War on Terrorism, our voting rights need to be temporarily rescinded.
I hope Fred isn't reading this thread.
As loopy as these neocons are, if it were come to that, I'd be seeking political asylum elsewhere. I have a little more faith in the American people than that, even the knuckle-draggers. Boy genius is already upside down in the numbers, I'd say put a fork in him. Unless China's hiring of course. :)
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A bunch of people got off at 86th and went downstairs to backtrack. Whoops. I wonder if they're still going back and forth.
People died on the planes in DC and PA too. So Bush attended a national memorial service somewhere else. BIG DEAL! Why is it that NYers feel this a slap in the face to the people of New York? Has NY become a city of crybabies?
Dick on the other hand, I guess that was a lame excuse.
Guess Cheney thinks about our NYPD finest not being up to HIS standards. Trust me, New Yorkers and at least half of the country will come out in full force next year and will give President Bushy Bush their two cents on his priorities in running this country. Isn't he President of the United States or acting President of Iraq? They way he just doles out the money, he's more like the latter.
Here's hoping that these morons stay AWAY from New York so *WE* can enjoy our 100th IRT birthday without having Manhattan cordoned off entirely so he can do a phucking phundraiser on a genuine LoV. :(
Peace,
ANDEE
The president's in town! Screw the people that use that station to get home! They can walk because the president's in town. Will they be able to even walk to their homes in the vicinity of the event without being hassled for ID? Geez.
But I guess be lucky trains are even running. When I was on the platform the game of the 2001 Series that Bush attended, they stopped all D and 4 service altogether. Without even ANY warning to the people. Not even employees were told what was going on except that there was no service. On the D platform we told people to use the 4, not knowing they stopped 4 service too. Those on the 4 did the same, told the people take the D. Oh, and the poor S/A's must have been really abused.
-Stef
-Stef
What else is new?
-Stef
http://www.csx-sucks.com/
What's going on at CSX is going on EVERYWHERE these days. :(
-Stef
Sorry Kev, but all in all, I don't give what I saw there nearly as much credence as you appear to.
But you're entitled. I don't consider Snow to be God's gift to mankind.
Might be sophomoric, but I challenge anyone to do what they do for a living and NOT get trigger happy. I guess one needs to see life out of a cab window to really grip their situation. That site has helped a number of grumpy people gas off, so I'm willing to look the other way. But I understand your point as well. There's a much higer sense of humor on that site than what I hear in the local gin mills.
P.S. If the President is going to the Museum of Nat History maybe someone should tell him that the price is just a suggested donation and he doesn't have to pay!!
Then again, maybe the station closing is for something else completely.
Fast forward to today, where Dubya's or Dickless' security wreak havoc all over downtown (especially between my neighborhood and Penn), and they act like "so what? you live here, deal with it." I'm sure that were it not for the fact that DC is the capital and someone told Dubya "yeah, you gotta," we'd never have been included in the disaster area declarations after Isabel. Dubya is on record as saying he despises the District, avoids going out as much as possible, and would just as soon let the city rot. And, he was like that even before he was elected...he's even worse since the attacks.
Also, all A and D trains were running express up the local tracks from 59 St to 125 St because of a "smoke condition on the express tracks at 86 St."
1. I didn't see/smell any smoke.
2. Why did they have to announce this and confuse the dumb people?
--Mark
If it were run by the NYCT, it would be broken most of the time.
Mark
(I figger if he's got the stands backwards, he might have the lock on the INSIDE of the door now)
Which flyover track would it take off from ? The one between Broadway Junction and Alabama Avenue ?
Mark
I'm pretty sure the Municipal Assistance Corporation (MAC) is a state agency. It does seem odd that the city's spending is still being monitored by the state when it's the state's finances that are highly suspect nowadays. In all fairness, it should be noted that Nassau County has also had state oversight of its budget since they had their own brush with bankruptcy.
The city did not default on the bonds. There was some concern that a New York City default on its debt obligations would wreak havoc on the national municipal bond market (which is a significant chunk of the country's financial structure), so the federal government stepped in and (I believe) had the US Treasury lend some money to the city. All of that money was paid back ahead of schedule, and the US Treasury did very well out of the deal. More importantly, the banks that had underwritten the city's bonds realized that they would be flooded with lawsuits if the city defaulted, so they became a lot more helpful. A very complicated deal was worked out between the city, the unions, and the banks, and a financial collapse was avoided. Someone told me that teachers did not get paid for one month during the summer of '76. And then there were about six years of massive budget cuts.
Default probably would have been preferable. While there would have been major short-term repercussions, in the long run the city would have been put on much sounder financial footing through a major dose of "tough love" discipline. Medicaid spending would have been kept under control and the absurd union giveaways wouldn't have happened.
"Rails ? Where we're going, we don't need rails !"
Mark
The concept behind a space elevator like the one that the NY Times outlined is amazingly simple in concept, but murderously difficult in execution. It's all based upon Kepler's 3rd law of planetary motion:
The square of the period of any planet about the sun is proportional to the cube of the planet's mean distance from the sun.
or
P2 = R3
in other words, the further you get from the thing you're orbiting around, the longer your period. This may seem obvious, since the radius increases, thus the circumference increases also, so the period would have to get longer, but really the period slows down faster than the circumference increases. The reason is that gravity recedes at the inverse square of the radius, and with less keeping you from flying off into space, the slower you go.
Now at some point there will be a distance from the earth where the period just happens to equal 24 hours, and so long as the satellite sits directly over the equator, it will never move. This is of course the realm of the Communications satellite, where the XM, DirecTV, Intelsat and other birds hang out. For earth it happens to be around 22,300 miles away from earth and is called Geosynchronous Orbit, or GEO. All manned spacecraft hang out around 1000 miles up, except the Apollo missions 8 and 10 through 17, which obviously went a bit further. This lower orbit is oddly enough called low earth orbit, and spacecraft down there zoom along at 17,000 mph, this down from 8000 or so out in GEO. Since something in GEO does not appear to move, it can be connected to a fixed point on Earth.
I'm a bit disappointed that the article didn't mention Yuri Artsutanov, who really should be called the father of the Geosynchronous Space Elevator, he's a Leningrad engineer who published a story in Pravda about his idea of hanging a cable from the newly invented communications satellite to the ground. His term for it was the slightly more poetic 'orbital funicular.'
However, as the article kind of explains, you can't just take a 22,300 mile long steel cable, tie it to a Boeing 702 satellite bus and fire it up on the next Atlas IV launch. For one steel doesn't have the tensile strength to hold itself together over a distance that far. Also, you need a counterweight, if you just string 22300 miles of cable, it will just fall back to earth, and no doubt make a big mess out of the equator when it does (see Red Mars).
First off, the counterweight thing, really it's not that big a deal, either we just build in excess of 46000 miles of cable (at which point the end of the cable could be a sling for going places, like the moon or mars). Or we grab a nearby asteroid and use it for both the raw materials for the space elevator and the counterweight. It doesn't really matter which mode was chosen, since either way we're probably going to have to go grab an asteroid at some point, lifting 60000 miles worth of carbon into space wouldn't exactly be the best use of our space launch facilities.
Next the tensile strength issue, steel isn't the strongest material we know of, kevlar and it's aramid fiber cousins are, and if we can ever get spider-silk (?) synthesized, we'd have something even stronger. Of course as the article noted, carbon nanotubules are the only thing, that we know of, which would hold together under such circumstances. If it were to be made, the elevator would be the world's biggest diamond, made almost entirely of carbon.
Now all of this would be be incredibly expensive, even with possible savings from wrangling an asteroid, we'd still be looking at trillions of dollars invested. There is a cheaper, interim solution that could be manufactured using currently available materials, the LEO space elevator. The LEO space elevator would be a 4000 mile long kevlar girder basically, stretching between 150 miles above the Earth, where the atmosphere of Earth finally trails off to near-nothingness, and 4150 miles up. The space elevator would move across the sky at the same speed as it's midpoint, sitting some 2000 miles up.
Once again Kepler is our friend, since the satellite is orbiting at 2000 miles, every orbit below it has a faster speed, every orbit above it slower. The 2000 mile downhill trip from midpoint to lowpoint at 150 miles up would mean that the elevator car is still moving at the orbital velocity for 2000 miles up, even though it might be merely 150 miles above earth, where the orbital velocity might be several times that for 2000 miles. Since the car is no longer in freefall, but instead locked to a 'fixed' point that does not follow normal orbital mechanics, gravity will make itself known, and the from the moment the car leaves midpoint, the passengers will feel their weight return slowly as the car decends, by the time they reach 150 miles their weight could be almost 80% of normal. You wouldn't want to be anywhere down there if the cable were to snap, since it'd be a short, fiery trip back to earth, some sort of rescue capsule for the crew at the bottom would be a necessity.
Going up from Midpoint would be the same story, this time you are travelling faster than the orbital velocities at those altitudes, so you are actually pulled away from the earth by the centripetal acceleration. By the time you reach 4000 miles above earth there could be a slight feeling of gravity, this time the earth would be pulling you up, toward the apparant ceiling. Out here escape velocity would be just a push away, the perfect launching spot for missions to the moon, mars and the outer planets.
And did I mention that this could be made today? It would make sense if it were placed directly over the equator, there it would be able to get the maximum loft to throw things into geosynch orbit, as well as only having to have moon-bound spacecraft correct for the 5 degrees that separates the earth's equator and the moon's orbital plane. Placing the pieces there would be simple, just use the Sea Launch Zenits and ESA's Kouru, French Guinea Ariane launch facilities. The Zenit 3SL can put 11,000lbs of stuff in Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (one that goes between GEO and LEO), so it could probably put some 20,000lbs into a 2000 mile orbit, and the Ariane V has similar capabilities. In less than 20 flights all the pieces could be in place, a mass of cable spools, space station pieces, and steel girders (for the stations, low, high and midpoint). They would have to be assembled, I have no idea how to do this, the space shuttle doesn't climb high enough, maybe the russians would be willing to modify a few Soyuz to sit atop a Zenit or Ariane, and then further modify them to cater to astronauts that will have to work outside for upwards of 8 hours.
Building the space elevator would be a challenge, as the space elevator reaches for space there must also be growth downward, to counterbalance the outward pull of the now unbalanced elevator. At the same time the lower section will want to speed up, while the upper section would want to slow down, these would have to be corrected with rockets, to keep them on course. Where the lowest safe location is (ie one that will remain in a relatively stable orbit if the cable should snap) would form a low-gee hotel/crew rest facility, here people can still get beautiful views of earth while not having the awkwardness of zero gee. The crew, who would no doubt occupy the station for very long periods of time would have the option of sleeping with a partial gravity, so they wouldn't encounter all the problems that living in a completely zero-G environment brings, such as muscle atrophy, bone problems and such.
The operation of the elevator would be straightforward, upbound passengers and cargo arrive at the low point and are lifted up to midpoint, at midpoint either they slide past at over 1000mph, or stop and discharge passengers. Passengers would arrive at the low point via a Space plane, and since the low point moves at the orbital velocity of a 2000 mile high satellite, the space plane need only be suborbital, it doesn't have to ever achieve orbit which could save millions in fuel costs alone. The space plane, perhaps similar to HOTOL or Pathfinder, might take off from Brazil, dock with the elevator over western africa, then hang on for one or two orbits while passengers and crew are transfered, then it's undock, reenter, and land back in brazil, ready for another flight. If the docking is unsucessful, there already some emergency landing strips in Western Africa, with a few more around Equatorial Africa, it could work. The spaceplane would just abort the docking, then get ready for reentry, and in africa, and, assuming it has some sort of jet engine for moving in the atmosphere, fly itself back to Brazil. Freight would be similar, except that since nobody has yet to field a successful heavy lift reusable spacecraft, the heavy freight lifting would be done by the same boosters that put it up there, Arianes, Sea Launch Zenits and whatever Brazil is fielding for a heavy lift rocket by that time. Just like the passengers the freight needn't achieve orbit. But some payloads might need to reach midpoint, since the freight carriers most likely wouldn't be able to reenter, a particularly valuable payload like a billion dollar moon lander might not want to risk the trapeze act at low point, but still get the boost that high point would give. It'd cost a little bit in payload, but it could save billions if the cargo carrier had missed it's point to dock with the low point and it ends up reentering.
Perhaps the most important role for such a space elevator would be in creating a true spacefaring system, no longer would spacecraft need to be encumbered by heat shields, wings and such, they could fully expoit their vacuum environment. Also, this elevator could be used as a step ladder to building a true Earth-GEO elevator, the probe that sets off to find the perfect asteroid to strip mine for carbon could leave from high point, as could the mass driver and automated factories for manufacturing the carbon nanotubules. If this elevator were completed in the next 15 years it could have a massive savings on the projected Mars and Moon missions, and with proper management and so on could come in for around 150-300 billion dollars, not all that expensive when you look at how much we spend every year launching comm satellites and such.
I guess that'll be up to us, we've snubbed spaceflight for over 30 years, something like this could bring back, if not the excitement, then at least the sense of exploration and so on to the space program.
Finally, a great page outlining different kinds of space elevators, including LEO, LEO-GEO, Earth GEO, Luna-LaGrange, and Martian options with it's two moons, Phobos and Deimos:
http://www.affordablespaceflight.com/spaceelevator.html
Maybe I've just read too much science fiction!
(In case you forgot, the movie had a Pan Am rocket taking them to the moon)
Mark
I'll give you a hint: it doesn't rhyme with "Koszciusko."
: )
Mark
Do you still have your Velcro grip shoes ?
By the way, Clarke, while an RAF officer is credited with the first practical proposal (published in the scientific literature in 1945) for an orbiting communication satellite.
Is some scuba diver going to come up to this car 10(+ or -) years from now, and think, "I should apply for an American Express card"?
Peace,
ANDEE
Now we've got John out of Sea Cliff, employed, educated and in tip top shape. It's like going on Oprah -- SubTalk Makeovers!!!! Who's next?
CG
And we all know what the second step for him would be ... I'm thinking "mystical" thoughts.
Qtrain probably would be more interesting in knowing whether she's mystical :)
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, I do wish you luck in your new location.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not sure of where the nearest big supermarket is- probably in a strip mall on Old Country Road east of School Street. Of course, there's a treasure trove of stores on Ol' Country and the old racetrack property, including Borders. Country Glen center in Carle Place west of Glen Cove Road has Tower Records and Barnes & Noble. Not sure if the Wiz, or the K-Mart next to Levitz, are still open.
And if you've got the appetite, there's a great Chinese buffet at Stewart and Ellison right by the entrance to NCC- and a mediocre one in Hicksville on Ol' Country just west of Newbridge.
If you have to live in Nassau without a car, this is probably the best place to do it short of downtown Hempstead.
Good luck in your new quarters.
They CLOSED the racetrack?????
Yes Elias, Roosevelt is closed & torn down. Go to MY SITE to read about it.
But don't go there on Fri, Sat, or Sunday. They up the price from $12.95 to $18.95 on those days just because they add lobster to the buffet!!! I go to that one.
Food quality at a Chinese buffet is irrelevant to Qtrain. They could serve him a bucket of raw sewage* and he wouldn't care, he'd be too busy making goo-goo eyes at the waitresses.
* = considering the hygiene standards at many Chinese buffets, this may not be too far off the mark
I thought it was just me, but the cleanness factor of the MAJORITY of Chineese Restaurants I have been in are not very high (both buffet and regular). In addition, there are way too many chineese buffets around now. They were nice when there were only a few, and they were a novelty, but some how they have lost their appeal. I somehow find it unappetizing to eat at a place where there are food fragments all over the floor that no one bothers to pick up, and screaming, unattended kids running around sticking their hands in the food at the buffet.
To keep this on topic, at the Wyckoff-Myrtle station on the M there is a brand new Chineese Buffet opening up in the old Ridgewood Grove Arena building, aka known as Royal Farms Supermarket, that had been abandoned for at least a decade or two.
Quite an accurate description. Not to mention the fact that the food is usually mediocre at best. I get the impression that these buffets appeal mainly to people who value quantity over quality.
The funniest buffet idea I've heard is one in Connecticut that was a combination Chinese and Italian buffet. The people who ran it were Chinese, and I guess they figured that adding Italian stuff was a good idea because Italian restaurants are so popular. I never went there, but I heard on reliable authority that almost everthing they served was strange-smelling, tasteless, and had a distinct gelatinous consistency ... sounds delicious, right :) Fortunately, sanity prevailed and the joint recently went out of business.
To keep this on topic, at the Wyckoff-Myrtle station on the M there is a brand new Chineese Buffet opening up in the old Ridgewood Grove Arena building, aka known as Royal Farms Supermarket, that had been abandoned for at least a decade or two.
I suppose a buffet joint is better than a vacant building, maybe.
91. Burrito with cheese
92. Burrito with beef
93. Burrito with steak
93. Burrito with chicken
94. Burrito with chicken and cheese, etc
The cleanliness looked like any Chinese restaurant, but the food wasn't half bad.
There's a joint like that near where I work, located on Varick Street just north of W. Houston. It's two doors away from the northernmost staircase from the 1/9 Houston Street station's Bronx-bound platform. It has about twenty lunch specials which are five bucks, a can of soda included. Food's pretty good, too, although given the obvious calorie and fat content I try to avoid the joint because I'd be 400 pounds if I went there too often.
Bill "Newkirk"
The weekend diesel stop at Westbury used to occur about an hour later circa 1989-92. During that time, I moonlighted Sundays at the defunct Raceway flea market selling health and beauty aids (How's THAT for bringing the thread full cycle?). While I didn't have to be there to set up till 7:30, I'd often drive out from Queens earlier to breakfast at the Reef Diner. If I was early enough, I'd get to Westbury station in time to see the diesel call there. On weekend mornings, the horn was EXTREMELY loud when blowing for the Urban Avenue and School Street crossings. From the raceway parking lot I could clearly hear the horn for an early Speonk or Montauk diesel blasting from Mineola all the way through Urban Avenue.
Needless to say, the double-deckers have taken a lot of the fun out of this. They just don't have the character of the old fifties-era diesel engines with their huge Cyclops headlight, squealing brakes and engines that would loudly strain to accelerate.
New Hyde Park also has diesel service in the form of the first outbound weekday Oyster Bay train which calls there at 8:15. Some say that a few peak Montauk diesels stop at Amityville, Copiague and/or Lindenhurst, but I don't see anything in the schedule to support that. I believe some summer weekend Montauk diesels stop at Freeport to accomodate the Jones Beach crowd. The Ronkonkoma branch is now completely devoid of diesel passenger service- except for the few Montauk branch trains that use the Central branch, and hence go through Bethpage without stopping.
I didn't follow the LIRR until after electrification extended from Mineola to Huntington- wasn't that in 1970? It must've been quite chaotic at Mineola with passengers transferring from electric to diesel amidst heavy train traffic, merging at the split for Oyster Bay and all the crossings. Did passengers switch modes the way they do at Huntington- by moving up the platform to the next train?
Speaking of low platforms, did Mineola have its current arrangement of sunken tracks and ground level platforms? I would imagine that in addition to Westbury as you mention, Carle Place, Syosset, Cold Spring Harbor and Huntington also would've had platforms right on track level in true diesel style. But wasn't Hicksville outfitted with high level platforms (in anticipation of electrification) when it was elevated in 1962?
It's strange that, unlike LIRR and MN, many stations on NJT's M&E lines- which have been electrified since at least the early eighties-still have ground-level platforms. But most, if not all stations on the NE Corridor and Coast line above Long Branch have high-level platforms. Heck, even Hoboken still has low platforms!
When the DM's were first worked into the schedule, the one nightly DM to Speonk made Jamaica, then Amityville and all local stops to Speonk. After about 6 months it was switched to Jamaica, Babylon then all local stops.
Every blue moon, when the LIRR gets completely fouled up during the AM rush, we get DM's covering the 8:10 Freeport/Baldwin/Rockville Centre to Penn express train.
CG
Was there additional electric service just as far as East Williston? Considering the OB line was electrified that far decades and decades ago, East Williston must've hosted more than just the one pitiful AM peak train to Penn that it does today.
Or were the mainline Floral Park platfoms used more back then? Today, only the aforementioned AM peak electric from East Williston uses the inbound main line platform there. I recall a few outbound AM trains bound for Huntington or Farmingdale stopping at Floral Park- and even Queens Village.
In any case, it seems like a big waste to have just had the main line electrified only through Mineola before 1970. The Main/PJ line corridor was heavily developed after WWII, if not sooner. So the demand was certainly there. Did it take the MTA acquiring the LIRR from PRR to achieve the electification's expansion?
Most East Williston trains started otu of Flatbush....there were a couple out of Penn Station. I used to ride the one from Flatbush to East Williston, left there around 3:25 p.m. or so. It had one of the nicest LIRR engineers I had met, a Mr. Al Battaglia. Everyone called him "Big Al". Always smiled, always had a nice word for everyone, and on many occasions, had a combine motor up front, so he'd let the railfans ride up with him in the baggage compartment.
I have a scanner that I leave on all the time, mainly because there is a talking detector right behind my residence, and that way I can hear how fast the train was going and how many axles when the readout broadcasts. Amazing how many trains are FLYING over the track speed limit through here (the Amtrak's are the worst offenders...)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good for them. Do you know how the Metrorail Extension from the Okechobee Station to the expressway park/ride is going?
Wait, do you mean more frequent service (shorter headways) or less frequent service (longer headways)?
Mark
And who would they get them from, as Budd is long gone.
When I was single I'd try my hand at getting into conversations with women I found interesting and attractive. Mixed results there, overall not bad.
You may have read the story about the lead car being the unofficial singles car on a subway train.
Mark
Except today some don't really try, they just pretend to.
Come to think of it, the miniskirt wearers 35 years ago probably weren't any different.
Something similar to that. If I am on a blind car set, I look for all the hotties in the car, especially the ones that obviously didn't look in the mirror before they left the house in the morning because they are all hanging out of their clothes.
If I am on a railfan window equipped car set, I will head for the railfan window. But that is during fun rides, because during my regular commute, the exits i use at my origin and destination are both at the middle of the platform, so I am never in the first (or last) car. But if I see a large group of hotties in a railfan window equipped car set, I may skip the railfan window.
Heh, yeah trains will always take a backseat when "life's true pleasures" are on the train or in the station....
As for what I do on the train, it also depends on the reason I am on the train. If I am on for transportation, I rarely head for the railfan window. In fact most of my subway riding is not at the railfan window, whether the set has one or not. (Railfanning trips are obviously different of course).
I am typically a doorway stander when riding for transportation. it allows me to check out the stations while riding too. I usually only sit if the train is very empty, or if I am tired. (OF course this wasn't the case when I was a daily user, then of course I sat more, but now that I only ride about once a week or so; I'm perfectly content as a doorway stander, if not on a railfanning trip, when of course i am at the railfan window).
In the morning, my commute takes me on the 1 and the Q local -- the local only because the first southbound express of the morning is scheduled to reach Brighton Beach just after the local I usually take. No railfan windows.
In the afternoon, I take the Q express to the 1/9. I could stand at the window on the Q, but by the end of the day my feet are killing me, so I sit and write up lecture notes. (My behind ends up killing me by the end of that ride, but at least I spread the pain.)
This morning at Newkirk, a Q express popped up out of nowhere. (I guess either we were late or the express was early.) I hopped on board and, seeing as all the seats were already taken, I claimed the window.
(Why was I up front to begin with? Our very own Alex L. was at the helm of the local. Normally I'd be in the last car for the transfer at Brighton Beach or the next-to-last car for the transfer at Sheepshead Bay.)
Hehe, the R40 curse!
On a similar note, when I was in college, I did much of my studying and homework on the train. You'd be surprised how much you can get done on a 1/2 hour or so on the train. In the morning, when I couldn't sit, I would usually read notes. In the early afternoon on the way home, you'd be surprised how much homework you can do spreading out on a fairly empty train (I guess I'd get a ticket now...)
It kills two birds with one stone - When you ride the same line everyday, there isn't much to see after a while anyway, you start to learn each distinct brick in the buildings the train passes.
Heh...yeah, I've ridden the A, C, and J so many dang times that if I were to fall asleep, and wake up much later, I would know immediately where I was just by the sound of the tracks we're passing over. [That makes the railfan window all the more interesting - without it all I'm left to do is listen to the sounds of the train or look at the same ol' buildings on Broadway.
The B1 bus ride is a different story entirely, but once I shove my way onto a bus, it's a short ride.
--Z--
All trains to Brunswick and West Virginia will operate this afternoon (Tuesday) EXCEPT the 145PM departure to Brunswick. Unfortunately due to the extensive delays this morning, the crew which normally operates the 145PM train will not have sufficient time between trips under the Federal Hours of Service regulations.
There will be no service to Monocacy or Frederick this afternoon. Connecting buses from Point of Rocks to Monocacy and downtown Frederick will connect from trains 875 (425PM from Washington), 879 (535PM from Washington), 881 (6PM from Washington) and 883 (715PM from Washington. MARC tickets will also be honored on the Washington Metro.
Frederick service was canceled this morning as a result of a major sink hole in Frederick where the railroad passes under I-70. We have been able to relocate all the equipment to allow service on Wednesday morning from Monocacy. IF we are able to repair the sink hole this afternoon, service will also operate from downtown Frederick on Wednesday morning.
If we are unable to fix the sink hole by Wednesday morning, trains will operate only from Monocacy. In addition we will reschedule tomorrow's Meet the Management session in downtown Frederick if train service from that station is not restored.
We apologize for this morning's difficult commute. The heavy rains disrupted travel on all three MARC lines as well as highways across the Washington area. MARC trains were delayed while CSX track inspectors checked for downed trees, washouts and other potential safety problems. In addition the heavy rains in the aftermath of Huricane Isabel caused problems with public address systems at many stations.
VRE plans to run normal service on both of its lines this evening.
Michael
Washington, DC
I am aware of limited funding and the other subway priorities, but since we are railfans, is it possible?
: )-
Later, after more delays and problems, I convinced City Planning, where I worked at the time, to reconsider the issue, which it did. I suggested a hybrid variant as insurance against the long term loss of the Manny B, with both a Rutgers DeKalb connection and a Nassau-Grand Connection. The idea was to only use the Manny B at rush hour, reducing traffic over it by 75 percent and prolonging its life, while sending all trains via the Rutgers and Montigue Tunnels. City Planning's transportation office wanted a new tunnel instead. In any event, the whole thing sputtered out again.
While these delays went on the area redeveloped, vastly inflating the cost of, and opposition to, building any connection. So what we have is that either (in spite of past history) the Manny B fix is permanent into the infinate future, or southern Brooklyn is doomed. Totally doomed. At least there will be a place to put the next Fresh Kills. If you are relatively new to this board, the propects for the permanance of subway service over the Manny B is a longtime topic. I just hope we don't have 25 years of service, followed by another 22 years of reconstruction.
The only discussion I've heard about the issue is whether it is necessarily to formally kill the idea (since the MTA once proposed it) or if it is already dead enough.
Did you also anticipate an intermix and intrchange of F, Q and W service in Manhattan and Brooklyn ?
I speculated elsewhere (in a private message) that making downtown Brooklyn more of a "subway hub" might be the key to adequate subway traversal for Brooklyn (avoiding having to go into Manhattan and return to Brooklyn, to get from one side of Brooklyn to the other).
The DeKalb-Rutgers connection might help achieve this.
David
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
http://www.nycrail.com
-Stef
I don't see a link.
LINK
First, I can't get the following photo to come up. Is this just my computer? All the other photos seem to work fine.
http://www.nycrail.com/images/seashore_stef/Seashore%20035.jpg
And also - can someone from Seashore identify the two cars flanking NYCTA 175 in the shot below? I'm guessing their Cambridge-Dorchester 0700-series cars, but if anyone knows exactly which cars these are I'd really like to know. Thanks!!
http://www.nycrail.com/images/seashore_stef/Seashore%20042.jpg
Frank Hicks
Unsure exactly what the cars standing next to 175 are, but I call on the Boston natives to chime in.
-Stef
-Stef
Frank Hicks
In the past, I've always counted cars at museums as preserved - whether they were accessioned parts of the collection or parts cars (or pahts cahs), and where deaccessioned I have noted them as such. I figure that if the car ever gets scrapped I can easily take it off the list. One of the three cars I help out on at IRM was acquired as a parts car and marked for scrapping, but after a while it was decided to preserve it - and 40 years later it's still around. So who knows?
Frank Hicks
I read about 1374's restoration and how long that took. It sure looks beautiful now!
IRM has done its share of major restorations, but we've never actually restored a body like Seashore did with "City of Manchester" and a few others. CSL 1374, CTA 3142 and C&ME 354 were all basically tear-down-and-rebuild restorations, but all three cars had (at least some of) their running gear when we started. IRM's first real "chicken coop" restoration will be Chicago & West Towns 141, which will probably be running in four or five years.
Frank Hicks
Yes. Car 34 is fully operational, and ran as recently as 2-3 years ago; car 40 is essentially operational and only requires an inspection. However, they have been "embargoed" by the Electric Car Department because the overhead wire on our line is not set up for pantograph operation. We tried it for a few years, but after the second time we had a pantograph torn off the roof of our IC MU cars we decided enough was enough.
There are plans to rebuild our overhead for pan operation - those 160 seats in the IC MU set, plus the several hundred seats between all our South Shore cars, would be a REAL asset - but at the moment we don't have the equipment or manpower. One big factor in this is our line car, which is very tired and needs replacement. Today, the 26th, NICTD decides to what museum they will donate their line car, 1100 - if it's us, you can bet that will accelerate the overhead rebuilding project.
Frank Hicks
Yes I did, but didn't take a photo of it.
- What did you qualify on the TARS ?
TARS requires a separate qualification. I am qualified on Eastern Mass 4387 and the Montreal Sightseeing Car.
- Did you get inside the SOAC set ?
I didn't see the SOAC interior, but my friend did.
-Stef
Harry...I will probably send you some photos i took from Members Weekend when i was there...
Anyone...
I have 2 nice videos of 800/1440 on the mainline...problem is my web server at home doesn't have a sound card, and my own website doesn't have enough space. Anyone have some room for them to post? (what good is it without the sounds right?) they are about 10MB total.
Thanks
Jeremy
-Stef
-Stef
Try http://www.transitgallery.com.
Seashore Videos from Members Day
It is a very crude page...I have been using Adobe GoLive for my previous web work and this is in Front Page. I will redo it at some point.
I will also put up some other videos and photos from that day.
If trolley cars (subway cars in this case) are put on truck wheels, jacked up on blocks, and is graffitizied all over, and presumably don't have working electrical systems and very few of the underframe equipment (look -- battery pack missing, apparently the dynamic brake grid still there but not much else)... what is the point of preservation?
The graffiti is easy to deal with, but once the wiring is gone, it's a goner. The other fleet doesn't look like they are in too good shape either. Sometimes, I would rather see scrapping than fleet being in this state. What happened to that car's trucks?
For me, a rail vehicle isn't a rail vehicle unless it comes complete with trucks. Even if it couldn't move under its own power, it could be hauled. That SEPTA car looks like it's just a static house or display for some railfan.
AEM7
Who says there were no plans to make Car 618 operational? The car hasn't been put on rails as of yet, doesn't mean that it won't happen. There are a set of trucks available for the car. They wouldn't be the original as SEPTA's El cars were wide gauge. IIRC, the standard gauge trucks are coming from an old Path K Car. Just wait and see...
-Stef
-Stef
And here's what it looks like now:
Have faith. Seashore is KNOWN for doing spectacular restorations, and next to the "City of Manchester" the 618 is in pretty good shape.
Frank Hicks
If you have no faith in the future of that one, I'd hate think of the future for this poor car. Is it to be restored, or is it going to be used as a parts car then discarded?
I'd wish the folks here would get there facts straight.
-Stef
-Stef
You think his mentor would allow him to fast track to a qualification
on a TATS Caw? He had to prove his skills on a Tuesday, with
Lee on 4387. He may have received an abridged program, but Stef
earned his qualification. There was no favoritism from his sponsor.
8-) ~ Sparky
8 - ) ~Sparky
So you are qualified on #2 & me on #4, B-U-T are qualified on both ends of #2 .... inside joke.
Naw, he can only go Loop-De-Loop on #2. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
It was a blazt!!! >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
-Stef
-Stef
Now I here that 401 is getting a new floor AND because they have convinced a mfg. to mix up some of that red cement a bunch of museums have jumped on the band wagon & ordered some too.
Most of the R-1s were gone by the time you did your tour of duty with the TA, but a few were still rolling along. You said they may have been converted to trailers.
The mechanical and technical designs used in Stockholm's subway are copied directly from the New York subway system, including the measurements of the rails themselves and the electrical power distribution system.
I'm not sure anyone here remembers actually using IRT City Hall, since it closed nearly 60 years ago. But maybe someone around here used to use Worth Street or 91st Street, or maybe DeKalb Avenue.
Anyone?
I still can't get over how extraordinarily brave/stupid I was at that age to walk around in those neighborhoods at 3:00 AM. Apparently, they had crime in Sunset Park and Clinton Hill back then.
Later on, (and until 9/11), she was on 40 at #7. By that time, she had become accustomed to using the E train, and used that in both directions.
It's funny how times flies. There probably are few people who commute to work on the subway today who commuted from Worth, 91st or DeKalb. Most of the people who commuted from those stations are retired by now. And I'll bet very few Penn Station commuters commuted to the old Penn Station.
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Do you mean Myrtle Ave? What DeKalb Ave station do you speak of?
In any event, I used Cortlandt Street on the IRT and WTC on the PATH. I also used the (Q), (N), and (F) platforms at Stillwell, as well as 191 St IRT, both those are only closed temporarily.
I remember Worth St on the Lex being in use, but I always rode past it on the express.
I am referring to stations that are now closed but still exist in their closed state. I am not referring to stations that have been demolished or closed entrances to existing stations.
Can I count Woodhaven on the LIRR Atlantic branch? Creeeeepy.
What did this station look like? I have yet to find one single picture of it, despite the fact that it remained open until 1976.
You can probably still get a glimpse of the station, riding at the front window of an M-1.
Correct, thanks to a light kept illuminated at the bottom of the stairwell on each platform. I can't understand why the station's still kept lit, albeit dimly. It's no longer usable as an emergency exit because I believe the stairwells are completely paved over at street level.
Could have been engineering workers who had been inspecting the station or the immediate area.
john
--Mark
How about the upper Level of the Myrtle/Broadway station?
I never used Richmond Hill in service (although did use it on the ERA fantrip, just before it closed). I used Fresh Pond countless times, and used Glendale about 10 times or so. I'm going to count Glendale as an abandoned station that the "didn't remove" (so it counts), as it's basically still in it's same condition as when it was open! What did they do, remove a sign.....
I believe the JFK Express only ran on 6th Ave from 57th Street, straight down 6th Ave to Fulton-Brooklyn and the Rockaways.
I think you may be thinking of the Aqueduct specials?
R-32.
Of course, since the MTA was formed, political subdivisions remained what they were for appearance' sake but what was provided at the interfaces between "yo" and "auslander suburbanite mosquitos" improved immensely, further leading to the flight from the city. They didn't like that at all. But at least MTA could have either kept it subway, or integrate it into "Meatball Norsk" and to HELL with it being part of the subway. In THAT scenario, it might have done even better than as part of NYCTA ...
Alas, it decayed, was built over, rights of way LONG gone ... rather academic now. :)
Many of the ROW takeovers (e.g., Heathcote bypass in Scarsdale, Memorial Highway in New Rochelle) happened 40 years ago.
Metropolitan Ave/Queens Blvd, Jamaica (J)
I currently miss Worth St. on the East Side IRT, because Brooklyn Bridge City Hall is at least two blocks downtown, and Canal Street six blocks uptown, of my place of work. Worth St., if still open, would be almost right-on, and would save me a few steps every work day. Sometimes I catch glimpses of it while riding the 4 5 and 6. especially when the downtown 6 is annoyingly stuck between Canal and Bklyn Bridge for no apparent reason.
It always happens and it is so annoying. I only like it when I'm not in a rush, because I can examine Worth Street.
I also used to work above the station–the College’s copy and print shop was above the station!
John
I recommend the site for anyone interested in the disused bits of the London Underground.
Nope. Nor is there any place of that name in the UK.
I saw it ina film once.
Then it is an act of artistic licence.
Here is a list of all of the closed stations I can remember:
CENTRAL LINE
British Museum
North Weald
Blake Hall
Ongar
Wood Lane
DISTRICT LINE
Aldgate East
Tower Hill (Mark Lane)
St. Mary's
South Acton
JUBILEE LINE
Charing Cross
METROPOLITAN LINE
King's Cross
Lords
Marlborough Road
Swiss Cottage
NORTHERN LINE
City Road
King William Street
(North End / Bull & Bush)
South Kentish Town
PICCADILLY LINE
Aldwych
Brompton Road
Down Street
Holloway Road
Osterley Park & Spring Grove
(St Anne's)
York Road
Uxbridge (Belmont Road)
I saw it in a film once.
Then it is an act of artistic licence.
The 1967 movie Five Million Years to Earth, also known as Quatermass and the Pit, involved a street in London known as Hob's Lane. It was years ago that I last saw it and cannot remember whether an Underground station was involved.
Mudchute and Island Gardens on the DLR pre-Lewisham extension.
Also, do Trafalgar Square & Strand (pre-Charing X days) count? Trafalgar Square was closed for a few years!
John
Lol!
And the signs now say "CHARING CROSS for Trafalgar Square". Maybe the name is drifting back...
Always was a Shuttle. It was a leftover piece of an earlier plan for a "Great Northern & Strand" Railway.
The stations should have been:
Wood Green
Turnpike Lane
Manor House
Finsbury Park
Gillespie Road (now called Arsenal)
Holloway Road
Caledonian Road
York Road
King's Cross (now called King's Cross - Saint Pancras')
Russell Square
Holborn
Strand
Strand became Aldwych for very complicated reasons.
The Bakerloo Line station that is currently called Charing Cross was called Trafalgar Square and the one that is currently called Embankment was called Charing Cross (as was the station on the District and Circle Lines).
The Charing Cross, Euston & Hampstead Railway (now the Northern (Charing Cross) Line) originally terminated at the station that is currently called Charing Cross. In 1914, the CCE&HR was extended one stop to the station that is now called Embankment, but was then called Charing Cross by every line that stopped there.
This left the Northern Line with two consecutive Charing Cross stations, so the one which did not interchange with any other line (as the Jubilee Line hadn't been built yet) was renamed Strand.
To avoid confusion, the Piccadilly Line station at the other end of the Strand was therefore renamed Aldwych.
To add to all this confusion, when the Jubilee Line was built, Charing Cross became Embankment and Strand and Trafalgar Square both became Charing Cross.
Anyway, returning to the subject, when the Piccadilly Line was built, despite now having merged with a proposal to route a line from Piccadilly Circus to South Kensington, they were legally obliged to build a line all the way to the Strand. They did this in the most half-hearted and useless fashion ever, hence Aldwych was always a shuttle (and a great ride it was too, with lifts (elevators) only at the Aldwych terminal).
I've used the station a few times.
The ticket window located in the lift with one person handling everything.
Lift operation, ticket sales, ticket collection.
I wish I had taken photos.
Other closed stations I used in London.
Ongar(twice), Primrose Hill and Broad Street(both often).
Oh, I almost forgot Charing X (Jubilee).
Ye gods... am I THAT predictable?
Ongar(twice)
A place I regret never having managed to get to...
Now... the question is, is Ongar a valid move in Mornington Crescent?
Primrose Hill
You did have time on your hands... or you didn't think much of the Northern Line!
Oh, I almost forgot Charing X (Jubilee).
So did I - it's the one that I can bet everyone's been to and is just totally immemorable!
The original plan was to extend the Jubilee Line in one of the following ways:
- from Charing X via Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Fenchurch St and Lewisham to Addiscombe
- from Charing X via Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Fenchurch St and Custom House to Barking and/or Thamesmead
- from Charing X via Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Fenchurch St and Woolwich Arsenal to Thamesmead
- from Charing X via Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, London Bridge, Greenwich and Woolwich Arsenal to Thamesmead
This got combined with a number of plans, some originally intending to extend the Bakerloo Line:
- from Waterloo via London Bridge and the Isle of Dogs to Stratford and Beckton (the latter segment became part of the DLR - note that North Greenwich was NOT in this plan)
- from Elephant and Castle via Bricklayer's Arms and the Isle of Dogs to Stratford and Beckton (the latter segment became part of the DLR - note that North Greenwich was NOT in this plan)
In 1988, there was a proposal for a totally new line, running from Waterloo via London Bridge, the Isle of Dogs and North Greenwich to Westcombe Park.
In 1989, there was a study for a Jubilee Line extension. This was still set on an extension from Charing Cross, with the next two stops being Aldwych and Ludgate Circus. The options thereafter were:
- London Bridge
- via Stratford to Ilford
- via Stratford and Newbury Park to Hainault
In 1990, there followed another study, with routing options as follows:
Existing section: Stanmore to Green Park
Option 1.1: via Charing X, Aldwych, Ludgate Circus
Option 1.2: via Westminster, Waterloo
All options: London Bridge to the Isle of Dogs
Option 2.1: Stratford (avoiding North Greenwich)
Option 2.2: Thamesmead (avoiding North Greenwich)
Option 2.3: Stratford (via North Greenwich)
Option 2.4: Thamesmead (via North Greenwich)
Everyone knows what eventually happened. A lot of people cried foul at it, but what's done is done. I personally wish they would have kept the initial alignment to Thamesmead via Fenchurch St and Custom House, with a Barking branch, but none of that is on the cards any longer.
The words "senseless duplication" spring to mind when I think of the route they built, but that's what the vested interests demanded.
I think the *original* proposed "Fleet Line" route eastwards from Charing Cross would have been a greater duplication: all the way to The City parallel to the District/Circle Line a few hundred yards south of it and the Central Line a few hundred yards north of it.
Like 6th, 7th and 8th Avenues in NYC.
Bond Street-Green Park-Westminster-Waterloo-Southwark-London Bridge-Bermondsey provides new facilities. To have gone from Charing Cross to this route would have cut Westminster out of the loop and provided a *third* tube line from Charing Cross to Waterloo. Going from Green PArk to Waterloo via Westminster was a better idea, even though it did leave the Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross disused after only 20 years.
And talking about waste - how about the Jubilee Line rolling stock scrapped after only 20 years, when the extension opened? Some of it is still lying around collecting graffiti, but none of it is used.
And while they might seem like senseless duplication, If one did not exist, the other 2 would be burdened like Lexington Ave is. I don't know how service is on these London Lines you guys refer to, but each of these trunk lines in NYC has high ridership.
Now if we can only get that other North-South Trunk line built....
But the JLE was more like the equvalent of running it under the West Side Freight Line - utterly dumb. Face it. It got put there for a tent on the Blackwall Peninsula and on the promise of money from the owners of Canary Wharf (which, needless to say, never materialised). It is one of the worst things anyone could have thought of doing to London.
John
Still spending huge amounts of money on security, maintenance and private sector profiteering over something completely vacuous. Rather a symbol of New Labour, isn't it!
How's this for a radical idea: demolish the Rev Blair's tent and build something useful, like a council estate there.
Shame that doing something creative with the Angerstein Wharf branch would have done better (ie it would get North of the Thames into the City) for less money.
I was referring to the route immediately east of Charing Cross and the disuse of the Green Park-Charing Cross stub after only 20 years of use. I wasn't referring to the section further east, or to the Millenium Dome, about which I agree with you, James, it should never have been built. Better access to London Bridge and to Canary Wharf aren't bad ideas, though, even though those Canadians at Canary Wharf never paid up.
I don't think building a new tube line could ever be "one of the worst things anyone could have thought of doing to London". That's like all of the bitching about the JFK Airtrain that has gone on here. I'm a railfan - if a new rapid transit line opens, I'm pleased! Of course one could argue that they should have built it somewhere else, or in some different style, or charged lower fares, or whatever, but what the hell, they built it this way, and let's all enjoy it!
The Central Line being ridiculously overcrowded and running at capacity. In that situation duplication makes sense - it serves as relief (although what might be a better idea would be a short branch from the District to take over the Great Eastern Local to Shenfield, using the Wimbledon-Tower Hill trains).
Like 6th, 7th and 8th Avenues in NYC.
Except the difference would be that London's 6th Av, namely Oxford St, would have small profile trains running under it.
Bond Street-Green Park-Westminster-Waterloo-Southwark-London Bridge-Bermondsey
No it doesn't. The entire line South of the Thames runs a nearly identical alignment to the South Eastern Main Line. All the work that was needed was to 4 track a short section of the line over Borough Market and restore the intermediate stops between London Bridge and New Cross/Deptford. The money wasted on new tidgy tube trains could have been better spent on a new Inner Suburban stock for the Southern Region.
To have gone from Charing Cross to this route would have cut Westminster out of the loop and provided a *third* tube line from Charing Cross to Waterloo.
Not to mention the 4 track South Eastern Main Line (although it only has the capacity of 2 tracks minus Thameslink trains). Once a new line is at Charing X, Waterloo is the last place you want to send it to.
Westminster isn't a huge deal, except for being an engineering nightmare. Nothing can be accomplished there that couldn't have been at Aldwych/Temple.
Going from Green PArk to Waterloo via Westminster was a better idea, even though it did leave the Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross disused after only 20 years.
An alignment via the City would have better served London. You could already get from anything arriving at Waterloo onto the South Eastern and South Central Divisions and the Bakerloo, Northern (Charing X), Waterloo & City, and Victoria (by getting off one stop earlier at Vauxhall) Lines. The Jubilee Line merely added a second route to Baker Street when something goes awry on the Bakerloo Line.
Likewise, the planners thought "oooh Stratford, we can take some of the load from the Eastern Region and stop the Central Line overcrowding at Liverpool St". Needless to say it didn't work, as the Jubilee Line takes people all round the world before dumping them South of the River or well West of where things are happening.
And talking about waste - how about the Jubilee Line rolling stock scrapped after only 20 years, when the extension opened?
The 1983 stock was always a lemon. Let it die!
Well.. At one point you seriously thought about changin your handle to "Aldwych James". :-)
is Ongar a valid move in Mornington Crescent?
I'm not getting this one. Am I missing some information?
You did have time on your hands... or you didn't think much of the Northern Line!
I lived near South Hampstead station, my school was in between Primrose Hill (Chalk Farm) and Camden Town. I think we went through this before during the long commute thread.
Maybe these sites can help you.
However, if you were in Britan from the mid-1970’s on, how did you miss it?
I was too busy following transit, disco and rock'n'roll back then, I didn't pay attention to a lot of other things and I have forgotten a lot of things. Besides, I didn't speak/understand English well enough to enjoy the show in 1978. By the time my English got better, I was probably in a pub during showtime. Cheers!
Walk? What are Routemasters for then? ;-)
This was a lot less fun than taking the tube from Russell Square (take the lift or walk down 194 stairs), to Aldwych (take the lift or walk up approximately the same number).
Holborn was no longer a fun station, with those long, long escalators (two sets!).
John
PS: Another bit of closed LT that I remember was South Kensington’s lifts! Visible now only as blank shafts from the Piccadilly line platforms.
Don't get me started on Ghandi. I say replace it with a statue of Sir Edward Watkin.
I could take a 168 (I think) down Southampton Street then Kingsway,
Ah... a split part of the 68! There must be about 5 different descendents of the original number 68 bus.
round the Aldwych and then get off in front of the Law Courts.
Going back it would've been a bit of a hike to find a bus stop though - I can see why anyone would ride the tube Northbound - plus Holborn was a far easier transfer in that direction. Incidentally, I've never got why Holborn is pronounced Hoe-bun - I suppose it's just one of those things...
Holborn was no longer a fun station, with those long, long escalators (two sets!).
In a way I like London escalators. I am one of those people who regardless of being in a hurry or not will hurl themselves down the left-hand side at full pelt. :-D
PS: Another bit of closed LT that I remember was South Kensington’s lifts! Visible now only as blank shafts from the Piccadilly line platforms.
One of those little reminders of how much better LU could be...
Huh?! Bee-Line used to go to Long Island?
R-32.
Read on...
T/O brought the D Train normal into C2 (uptown track) at 205th St where he dumped his train. The switchman pulled the train south into the C7 Yard Lead (south of 205th St, track to CCY), where our regular T/O went north onto C1 (downtown track) and changed ends upon completion of the movement at 205th St.
It was one of those days...
-Stef
Ever wonder how the IND could do so many TPH at Continental? There's your answer.
The arnines were unique cars, and ever so friendly for motorpeople who knew their quirks. The most important thing though was to make sure that when you left them somewhere that they were "tied down." Those puppies LOVED to escape. Rockaway Park yard is full of stories of escapees. :)
Do that with anything newer and listen to the breakers go "poppity pop."
Am I right or am I right?
Next is train crossing lights and poles at firestations.
As to the horns and bells, ask the NIMBYs how much their property values have increased since a modern railroad was added to their neighborhood. They can cry all the way to the bank.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.
This is a Queens bound W local train.
This is an Astoria bound train.
(Z) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z train.
This is a Mahattan bound Z express train.
This is a Broad Street bound Z express train.
(Z) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z express train.
This is a Queens bound Z express train.
This is a Jamaic bound Z train.
Shuttles
42 Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Central bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
This is a Times Square bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
Ozone Park Shuttle
This is a Queens bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Ozone Park bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is a Brooklyn bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
Rockaway Park Shuttle
This is a Rockaway Park bound Rockaway Park Shuttle train.
This is a Broad Channel bound Rockaway Shuttle.
Grand Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Street bound Grand Street Shuttle train.
This is a West 4 Street bound Grand Street SHuttle train.
Franklin Avenue Shuttle
This is a Frankln Avenue bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
This is a Prospect Park bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
Staten Island Railroad
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Ball Park bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Saint George bound Staten Island Railroad train.
:)
I agree with Jeff W; someone get some webspace for Enic!
"12345679ABCDEFGJLMN(Q) RVWZ Shuttles trains and Staten Island Railroad as automated announcements"
NOW!!!
What about R-142S Delivery?
What is your point?
And What is R-142S
Are you trying to say TA had ordered the new R-142 Slants. And there is such fleet out there.
R-32.
So in other words, you won't keep them posted. Because you KNOW that you'll become inundated with requests.
Did the guy into electric roll signs ever request something from you?
http://astro.temple.edu/~mccomas/
Sean@Temple
It is sad, though, to think of what we could have had.
: (
Mark
I have been assured that this is not a "public hearing" by the MTA. Perhaps, this is the reason that the MTA does not feel it is required to give any details regarding place and time (hour) on their website. Even email inquiries will only elicit only the place and the date.
For those who are interested to see, if the proposed plans will reduce the capacity between 96th to South Ferry from 40 tph to below 25 tph, the lower level auditorium of the Customs House (Bowling Green) is supposed to open at 4 pm. The presentation is supposed to start at 6 pm and cards for public comments are supposed to be submitted before 7 pm.
I spent this morning measuring current dwell times at South Ferry during the morning rush hour (7:30-9:30). The average dwell time for all 31 trains was: 50.3 seconds. However, the average of passenger flow was only 23.7 seconds. The rest of the time the doors remained open with no passenger flow or remained closed before the train moved. If one assumes that all 10 cars platformed on an extended platform, then the passenger flow time should be cut in half. Of course, the TA could still keep the doors open or the train in the station with the doors closed. An average passenger flow time in the 10 - 15 second range would be consistent with 40 tph operation, which is predicated on a 30 second dwell time.
The distribution was definitely bi-modal, depending on whether a ferry had just arrived. The max passenger flow time was 67.75 seconds and the minimum was 6.01 seconds.
Of course, passenger flow can be improved in the existing terminal without substantial cost. The TA did not make any improvements to the station during the year it was closed. For example, no noise abatement measures were implemented.
Probably the best bang for the buck would be to install entry gates to the platform, somewhat like the gates that used to control platform access on the Paris Metro. The purpose would be to prevent passengers from descending the single stairway access, while a train was in the station. The easiest way to implement this would be to prevent the turstiles from collecting fares, while a train was in the station. This would help the conductor determine "when all the people on the platform" have entered the train. The problem when a boat arrives, is that the flood keeps coming. This would dam it up. However, I don't think that such an improvement would cost $400 million. Then again it also won't reduce capacity, which is what the TA has been doing with capital funds lately.
Of course, if I don't comment in person, I'll submit my comments by email.
Only that they don't attend with an empty mind. :-)
Is is still the plan to make SF into a stub-ended terminal?
If so, what happens to the 5 trains from Bowling Green turning on the inner loop - will that loop still be there?
You observed 31 trains between 7.30 and 9.30, which is 15 tph. If that is the number operated in a weekday rush hour, presumably the busiest time, who needs 40 tph? What is wrong with a 25 tph terminal?
Your idea for "damming" the flow of ferry passengers so that they don't all try to get on to one train seems sensible, but would they be able to sell it to the geese?
There would be a lot of turnstile-jumping...
The TA has trouble operating at capacity. The best that they do is 70% (28/40 for Times Sq on the Flushing Line). That brings capacity down to 17 tph.
They have previously operated 28 tph on the West Side local.
Your idea for "damming" the flow of ferry passengers so that they don't all try to get on to one train seems sensible, but would they be able to sell it to the geese?
Sure, turnstiles are always breaking down. Swipe again.
Current actual service on the 1/9 peaks at 20 tph. Trains are very crowded. People are still moving into the Upper West Side.
Even if NYCT has no current plans to increase service beyond 20 tph, surely it wouldn't make sense to spend a lot of money to make it physically impossible to ever increase service beyond 20 tph (without spending a lot more money do undo the rebuild).
If you and Stephen are talking about it, you must not be the only ones.
It doesn't cost anything to use it. And amtrak fares are pretty cheap.
Please note that when you use Amtrak Vacations' United Airlines air-rail combo, you only get Amtrak miles for the rail trip, not the whole round-trip.
- All the stations I've looked at have white tile with a horizontal colored strip of tile running the length of the upper half of the wall (One exception: I think one of the C stations near Euclid has nasty green tiles instead of white. There may be other exceptions that I'm not aware of.).
- Local stations have the name of the station in a wall mosaic (large white letters against a color matching that of the horizontal color strip).
- Express stations have the name of the station in simpler 'letter tiles' (single black tiles with white letters on them) below the color strip.
The other day, I noticed that some of the new tiling had fallen off the wall in south end of the Manhattan-bound platform at either the Carroll or Bergen St. F stop (looked like water damage), which have the station name in mosaic form. The tiles underneath had 'letter tiles' with the name of the station.
So here's the questions:
- What was the original IND tile scheme?
- Did it include the color strips?
- Did it include the name of the station in a simple, 'white-on-[color]' mosaic, or were 'letter tiles' used exclusively throughout?
- Do the colors mean anything?
- Why don't they rip out the old tiles before putting in new tiles? They might stick to the wall more effectively.
Apologies for the barrage of questions.
The tile designs gave the IND character, but I wonder if anyone actually thought that people could retain enough of that information for it to be useful.
Red, Blue, Yellow, Green and Purple. Local stations would be in one set of colors, and the color pattern would change at an express station. Local stations (with the platform against the wall) have the name of the station with matching colors in a mosaic nameplate, as well as the name of the stop under the tileband (white letters on a black tile). Stations that had island platforms just had the white on black tiles running full length under the tileband with no mosaic.
The colors were intended to let riders know when a particular stop was coming. Let's say you were going to get off at 63 Drive, whose tileband is light blue. Once you saw the bluish tileband at Elmhurst Avenue, you would know that your stop would be coming soon, since it was "blue."
As for taking out the tiles before reapplying, I don't think they do that because they can save time by just applying the tile over the pre-existing one.
This site, www.nycsubway.org, has a more detailed explanation about the IND tile pattern. That, too, can help to answer the questions you have about the IND stations.
On current rehabs (like on the #1 line at 103 and 110), they're taking out all the white tile, and leaving the mosaics, so that new tile can be laid around them. I like that idea better than other rehabs (like the older Lower Broadway/4th Avenue "tile job")
Luckily though when they did the Broadway and 4th Ave line renovations in the early 70's, they did just cover over the original tiles with the cement block tiles in the photo you posted. Thankfully, when they removed the cement block tile, all the mosaics were still there for them to be able to restore them. I wonder why they tiled over the Cement Block tile at Canal Street (N/R platform) instead of removing the cement block tile and restoring the original mosaics. The original mosaics are now under two layers of new tile. It's a shame because in addition to the name mosaics, there were little monogram mosaics of the old "Canal", and looked similar to the houses at Union Square.
- Did it include the color strips?
Most of the IND stations did have colored bands. However I believe the local stations on the 8th Ave/CPW line didn't for some reason originally.
- Did it include the name of the station in a simple, 'white-on-[color]' mosaic, or were 'letter tiles' used exclusively throughout?
All local and express stations originally had the letter tiles, black tiles with white letters. Of course in addition to that the local stations had the name mosaics also. Many stations lost the little monogram letter tiles in recent renovations (such as Bergen as you mentioned).
- Why don't they rip out the old tiles before putting in new tiles? They might stick to the wall more effectively.
I think it's cheaper and easier to do that. It also insures that the mosaics are not damaged when they do the restorations of the name tablets. At other stations, like the contract one IRT stations, they have been more meticulous in order to preserve the meticulous tilework those stations had, like the colored paneling between the white tiles. 116th St and the others around there are good exampleds of this type of more meticulous restoration.
1. Kept in the museum fleet
2. Donated to museums
3. Which museums will get the donated cars?
And if not, say Kaddish :(
I heard the Cape May Museum of Marine Biology is getting a couple hundred ;^)
How do you come to that conclusion?
Thanks,
Sean@Temple
Thanks, Mike.
Rebuilt!?! I remember when they bought that thing new! What's going on?
Perhaps the specs were at fault rather than the manufacturer.
Sean@Temple
By the way, we're neighbors. I live on Kingsessing. My wife lived right off of 48th and Baltimore until we got married.
Mark
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
And if you *do* visit an auction house while you are out here, DO NOT SCRATCH YOUR EAR.... There is no telling what you will come home with!
The London Underground doesn't use this convention (it uses northbound, westbound, etc.). But the London suburban lines of National Rail do. It gets a little arbitrary at times for cross-country lines that don't go to & from London. And London suburban lines which are circles (like the Hounslow Loop) have to swop sides somewhere.
Nope. "Up" is always towards London (remember the UK is very London-centric). For (say) the Glasgow-Edinburgh line, Glasgow and Edinburgh being about equidistant from London, someone way back in the nineteenth century would have decided arbitrarily which way was "up". Within Greater London, "up" is towards the central London terminal of that particular line.
My recollection was that, at least for the Polmont Lines, "up" is towards Edinburgh, because since the Caley-NBR connector opened, you went from Queen St thru Polmont to Edinburgh then to London on the NBR. At Haymarket Jct., up connects to the down and down to the up, since the Carstair lines are Caley in origin, and therefore headed UP (West) to London via Carstairs; but the connector has UP (East) towards London via Berwick. The Scottish Region lines have "up" towards Glasgow, for example on the Stirling-Greenhill Upper Jct., "up" is towards Glasgow, which merges into the "down" towards Glasgow of the Polmont Lines.
My memory might have faded, I'd need to check on this in the Sectional Appendix at home.
AEM7
formerly of the Scottish Region
Actually there aren't that many crosstown lines in Greater London, though there are a few, some of them deeply obscure. One that springs to mind is Wimbledon-Croydon, but that has major commercial centres at both ends! That problem's been solved by converting it into light rail (8-) . I would guess that the North London Line is "down" towards Richmond, because it originally came out of British James's late and much-lamented Broad Street terminal, and into Broad Street would therefore have been "up".
The reason why the Underground doesn't use this system is obviously that its lines cross central London and they would have had to swop "up" and "down" somewhere, which would have been confusing. The Circle Line has "Inner Rail" and "Outer Rail". Since the UK drives on the left, Outer Rail is clockwise. The Clockwork Orange in Glasgow also has Inner Rail and Outer Rail.
If Broad Street station were mine, I'd've never let the b'stards demolish it, especially not to pay for renovating an Eastern Region station!
One that springs to mind is Wimbledon-Croydon, but that has major commercial centres at both ends!
My guess on that is that from Wimbledon to Mitcham Junction, Wimbledon would definitely be Up and from Mitcham Junction to West Croydon, either way makes sense, but for consistency I would go with Wimbledon and Mitcham Junction still being Up.
The line that should provide the most fun in determining an Up direction is the South London Line - London Bridge to London Victoria.
Oh and if we're looking for arbitrary, at least one of the curves on every triangular junction will be completely strange.
It *IS* completely arbitrary. But it is not universal.
Look at Vincennes, Indiana: it was laid out by the indians (when the French were building the town) The lines (roads) run towards the sun on the longest day of the year.
Hobbits and Elves always had east at the top of their maps.
Elias
Antarctica isn't a sovereign state, though. Nor does it have any trains. And the main jumping-off point to reach Antarctica is....New Zealand, Christchurch to be precise, where the US Antarctic expeditions have a base at the airport.
Quack quack quack quack!!!
When I was student it used to amuse me that if I visited London for a day, my journey both ways was "up" - up to London in the morning and back up to Cambridge in the evening.
Plus you had a choice of London Terminals - King's X or Liverpool St. Very tempting to go one way and come back the other.
For completely different routes, I think the best I did was:
OUT:
Birmingham NS - Newcastle Central
Newcastle Central - Edinburgh Waverley
Edinburgh Waverley - Aberdeen - Inverness
RTN:
Inverness - Perth - Glasgow QS HL
Glasgow Cen HL - Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke-on-Trent - Birmingham NS
RTN:
Inverness - Perth - Glasgow QS HL
Glasgow Cen HL - Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke-on-Trent - Birmingham NS
OUT:
Boston-Albany-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago
RTN:
Chicago-Nappenee-Fostoria-Akron-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia-New York Penn-New Haven-Boston
I have you beat :-)
AEM7
Sounds like a good reason to move to Brighton. Then, by coincidence, she would be right!
It gets a little arbitrary at times for cross-country lines that don't go to & from London.
Not totally arbitrary. Usually they have the Up direction as the significant place at the end of the line - IINM the Netley branch is Up towards Southampton Terminus - with the small confusions that Southampton Terminus is no more (the trains go to Southampton Central) and that where it meets the Bournemouth Main Line at Saint Denys, BML Up is the opposite direction!
Often the Up direction was originally directed at a major provincial place and coincidentally happens to be towards London, as is the case between Warblington and Hove, where Up is theoretically to Brighton and coincidentally to London Victoria.
The annoying effect of all this is that any train travelling between Havant and Fareham without going into Portsmouth suddenly changes from a Down train to an Up train while travelling along a straight piece of track!
And London suburban lines which are circles (like the Hounslow Loop) have to swop sides somewhere.
Fortunately that is pretty intuitive. It happens at that junction just past Hounslow (the name escapes me). A similar thing happens on the Kingston Loop.
Rather annoyingly it's completely the reverse. An Up train is headed Downtown.
Rather annoyingly it's completely the reverse. An Up train is headed Downtown.
No, in British English, you go "up" town and there is no "downtown", it is the "city centre".
AEM7
Rather tangentially, that phrase would sound very odd in Leicester where I currently am. The City Centre is at the bottom of a rather steep hill (I can just about cycle up it) next to the River Soar.
They tried to use the most easily recognized colors the most.
(A) Deep Blue
(AA) Magenta
(B) Black
(CC) Kelley Green
(D) Orange
(E) Pale Blue
(EE) Deep Orange
(F) Magenta
(GG) Light Green
(J) Medium Grey
(K) Dark (different shade) Blue
(LL) Light Gray
(M) Pale Blue
(N) Goldenrod
(QB) Red
(RR) Emerald Green
(SS) (Franklin, Culver Shuttles, and Times Square Shuttles)Green
(1) Orange
(2) Red
(3) Light Blue
(4) Light Magenta
(5) Light (not as light as the LL) Gray
(6) Yellow
(7) Salmon
: ) Elias
Yes, it certainly is a mid 70s map, and yes it does have all of the services explained on the back in stripes of the same colour as the line shown of the front of the map.
Elias
1967 Map
Line Color
(A) 8th Av Exp Dark Blue
(AA) 8th Av Local Magenta
(B) 6th Av West End Exp Black
(CC) 8th Av Bronx Local Green
(D) 6th Av Brighton Exp Orange
(E) 8th Av Queens Exp Light Royal Blue
(EE) Queens-BWay Local Orange
(F) 6th Av Queens Blkyn Line Magenta
(GG) Blkyn Queens Local Green
(HH) Rockaway Park Red
(HH) Far Rockaway Red
(JJ) Jamaica Local Orange
(LL) 14th St Canarsie Line Black
(M) Myrtle Av-Chambers St Line Same as E
(MJ) Myrtle Av Line Magenta
(N) Broadway Sea Beach Exp Burnt Orange
(NX) Broadway Exp Same as E
(QB) Broadway Brighton Local Red
(QJ) Brighton-Jamaica Line Black
(RJ) Fourth Av-Jamaica Line Red
(RR) Broadway-Fth Av Local Green
(SS) Culver Shuttle Orange
(SS) Franklin Shuttle Burnt Orange
(TT) West End Local Dark Blue
(1) BWay-7th Av Local Orange
(2) 7th Av-Bronx Exp Red
(3) 7th Av-Lenox Exp Same as E
(4) Lexington-Jerome Av Exp Magenta
(5) Lexington Av Thru Exp Black
(5) Lexington Av Exp Black
(6) Lexington Av-Pelham Local Burnt Orange
(6) Pelham Exp (Lex Av Loc) Burnt Orange
(7) Times Sq Flushing Exp Orange
(7) Times Sq Flushing Local Orange
(8) Third Av Local Same as E
(SS) 42nd St Shuttle Same as E
(SS) 145th St Shuttle Black
(SS) Bowling Green-SF Shuttle Dark Blue
(SS) Dyre Av Shuttle Green
Wow! I didn't realize there were that many shuttles in operation back then.
1969 Map
Line Color
(A) 8th Av Exp Dark Blue
(AA) 8th Av Local Magenta
(B) 6th Av West End Line Black
(CC) 8th Av Bronx Local Green
(D) 6th Av Brighton Exp Orange
(E) 8th Av Queens Exp Light Royal Blue
(EE) Queens-BWay Local Orange
(F) 6th Av Queens Blkyn Line Magenta
(GG) Blkyn Queens Local Green
(HH) Rockaway Park Red
(HH) Far Rockaway Red
(JJ) Jamaica Local Orange
(KK) 6th Av-BWay Blkyn Line Dark Blue
(LL) 14th St Canarsie Line Black
(M) Myrtle Av-Broad St Line Same as E
(N) Broadway Sea Beach Exp Burnt Orange
(QB) BWay Exp-Brighton Local Red
(QJ) Brighton-Jamaica Line Black
(RJ) Fourth Av-Jamaica Line Red
(RR) Broadway-Fth Av Local Green
(RR) Nassau St-4th Av Local Green
(SS) 9 Av-Ditmas Av Shuttle Green
(SS) Myrtle Av Shuttle Green
(SS) Prospect Pk-Franklin Av Shuttle Green
(1) BWay-7th Av Local Orange
(2) 7th Av-Bronx Exp Red
(3) 7th Av-Lenox Exp Same as E
(4) Lexington-Jerome Av Exp Magenta
(5) Lexington Av Thru Exp Black
(5) Lex Av E180-Dyre Av Exp Black
(6) Lexington Av-Pelham Local Burnt Orange
(6) Pelham Exp (Lex Av Loc) Burnt Orange
(7) Times Sq Flushing Exp Orange
(7) Times Sq Flushing Local Orange
(8) Third Av Local Same as E
(SS) Times Sq-GC Shuttle Green
(SS) Lenox Terminal Shuttle Green
(SS) Bowling Green-SF Shuttle Green
(SS) E180 St-Dyre Av Shuttle Green
Note that the MJ, NX, RJ, and the TT trains are gone and the Shuttles are now all one color: green. The KK and a second RR have been added as well as some of the train descriptors have been changed.
1974 Map
Line Color
(A) 8 Av Exp Blue
(AA) 8 Av Local Magenta
(B) 6 Av Exp Dark Grey/Black
(CC) 8 Av Local Green
(D) 6 Av Exp Orange
(E) 8 Av Exp Light Blue
(EE) Broadway Local Orange
(F) 6 Av Exp Magenta
(GG) Blkyn-Queens Crosstown Local Green
(J) Jamaica Exp Medium Grey/Black
(K) 6 Av BWay (Blkyn) Local Blue
(LL) 14 St Local Grey/Black
(M) Myrtle Av Exp Light Blue
(N) Broadway Exp Light Orange
(QB) Broadway Exp Red
(RR) Broadway Local Green
(RR) Nassau St 4 Av Local Green
(SS) Culver Shuttle Green
(SS) Franklin Av Shuttle Green
(SS) Bowling Green SF Shuttle Green
(SS) Times Sq-GC Shuttle Green
(1) Broadway Local Orange
(2) 7th Av Exp Red
(3) 7th Av Exp Light Blue
(4) Lexington Av Exp Magenta
(5) Lexington Av Exp Light Grey/Black
(5) Lexington Av Thru Exp Light Grey/Black
(6) Lexington Av Local Light Orange
(6) Pelham Exp Light Orange
(7) Flushing-Times Sq Exp Orange
(7) Flushing-Times Sq Local Orange
Note here that the line descriptors are a bit simpler and some trains from the 1969 map are no longer in service. The colors are largely the same as before.
1976 Map
Similar to the 1974 Map with the following differences in the coding and descriptors:
There is no Culver Shuttle, and no K and QB trains. The RR is just labeled as the Broadway Local. The F is labeled as the 6 Av Local-Queens Exp. The E is labeled as the 8 Av Local-Queens Exp. The M is now the Myrtle Av Local.
1978 Map
Same format as the 1976 Map with the following differences in coding/descriptors:
No Bowling Green-SF Shuttle. The F is now known as the 6 Av Local-Queens Exp/Local
For comparison, here is the 1979 map
1979 Map "Geographically Correct" Format
Line Color
(A) 8 Av Exp Blue
(A) Rockaway Shuttle Blue
(AA) 8 Av Local Blue
(B) 6 Av Exp Orange
6 Av Exp Orange
(B) Shuttle Orange
(CC) 8 Av Local Blue
8 Av Local Blue
(CC) Rockaway Shuttle Blue
(D) 6 Av Exp Orange
(E) 8 Av Exp Blue
(F) 6 Av Local Orange
(GG) Blkyn-Queens Crosstown Light Green
(J) Jamaica Exp Brown
(LL) 14 St-Canarsie Local Grey
(M) Naussau St Local Brown
(M) Shuttle Brown
(N) Broadway Exp Yellow
Broadway Exp Yellow
(RR) Broadway Local Yellow
Nassau St Local Yellow
(S) Franklin Av Shuttle Black
(S) 42nd St Shuttle Black
JFK Exp Light Blue
(1) Broadway Local Red
(2) 7th Av Exp Red
(3) 7th Av Exp Red
(3) Shuttle Red
(4) Lexington Av Exp Green
<4> Lexington Av Exp Green
(5) Lexington Av Exp Green
<5> Lexington Av Exp Green
<5> Lexington Av Thru Exp Green
(5) Shuttle Green
(6) Lexington Av Local Green
<6> Lexington Av Local-Pelham Exp Green
<7> Flushing-Times Sq Exp Purple
(7) Flushing-Times Sq Local Purple
This map shows the first use of the diamond symbol for rush hour service. The colors have been completely revamped: each throughfare in Manhattan gets its own color associated with it (8 Av, blue; 6 Av, orange; Nassau St, brown, etc. The SS has now become the S and is only used now for the 42nd St and Franklin Av Shuttles. All other (existing and new) shuttles are given codes corresponding to the line that they run on. This is also the first map to show the JFK Exp (the "Train to the Plane").
As far as transfers at Bridge Jay are concerned, how were people who got a transfer ticket after getting off at Bridge Jay to get on at Jay St Boro Hall prevented from going past BWay Nassau on the train (the 1967 map says that the transfer is good for a ride to High St or BWay Nassau only)?
Koi
Darkside: For most of its existence the RR/R 4 Avenue-Nassau Line used the color yellow even though it ran on the Nassau Street Line (Brown) in Manhattan. The Map dated May 24,1987 finally corrected this and the R Nassau Street Local is shown in brown. Fourth Avenue-Nassau Service was discontinued on November 20, 1987.
For the record the last R Nassau Street Local left Chamberes Street with cars (S) 4878-9,4850-1,4897-6 and 4937-6 (N).
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
PS:
I like the current colour scheme. I've drawing the 1966 service using it.
(using the 1966 service information on the historic map page)
Looks nice. If you want it, i can email it.
Seriously, they had no idea what you did, but since that was the purpose of the transfer, to get you to under instead of over the Bklyn Br to Park Row, they had to say it.
Two additional items might be of interest to you.
The R-16 mulit-colored replacement rollsigns of 1969 also carry the reading "MM Sixth Av Local" on the outside and "MM 6 Av Local" on the inside. The color for this route was green.
A book entitled "Seeing New York, The Official MTA Travel Guide" published in 1976 contains strip maps of all the subway services. Among those listed is "SS Broad Channel-Rockaway Park" with the color light green. This was never carried either in service or on subway maps.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Elias
If the bullet was on a white surface, the bullet was black. If it was on a black surface(i.e. on rollsigns), it was gray.
The (K) first appeared on the 1973 map, (was (KK) on 1972 map),
and the Culver Shuttle was removed by the 1975 map.
If the (5) bullet on the cover is gray, it's a 1973 map.
If the (5) bullet on the cover is black, it's a 1974 map.
-Larry
http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972.htm
JJ - orange
NX - light blue
RJ - red
Wayne
I also rode on the R-16s for the first time that day. Little did I know that I would not ride on them again until 1986.
People don't complain about you because of your content, but because you post too many new threads.
As far as I know, there are still PA bonds outstanding with specific convents preventing extension of any Rapid Transit service. Until the last of these bonds are retired, PATH can't be extended.
I've gone to Giant Stadium twice (Simon and Garfunkel and Women's World Cup) and hated the drive both times. Transit would make it better for everyone.
But let's think about this. New York wants the Olympics. New Jersey, a richer state, is willing to rebuild Giants Stadium and provide transit access. What is New York City getting out of paying for a whole separate Olympic Stadium for itself? Ego?
My view -- let New Jersey, the Giants and Jets build the Olympic Stadium. It's the least they can do for us. Use the rail yards for taxpaying, MTA funding commercial development -- perhaps hotels and offices over an expanded convetion center, not a stadium.
I hate to bust your bubble but there will NEVER be an Olympic stadium built in Manhattan in time for that event. You have Yankee and Shaye stadium and that's about it for now and the next 10,000 thousand years!
New Jersey could care less about building a new sports complex. Look what's happening to the Devils and Nets? They're getting ready to be shipped off to Queens again! New Jersey doesn't have money.
Back to the Olympic stadium in Midtown Manhattan. Folks. It's never going to happen. There are a lot of deep pockets that fought against a Westside elevated highway. Never Happened. If you're thinking of building that Stadium by the Javits Center, please think again. There are a lot of deep pockets that will see that never happens again either.
I took the HBLRT to the Liberty State Park station and a $1.10 round trip NJT shuttle bus (short Blue Bird) to the CNJ terminal.
While at the festival I rode the UP speeder.
Returning to the light rail station, I photographed platform art.
I left the HBLRT at Exchange Place and took PATH to Pavonia where I changed trains for 33rd Street. My intention was to try out Secaucus Transfer, so I had purchased a ticket from NYP to Ridgewood and another from Ridgewood to Hamilton. The 1:55 Trenton Express wasn't scheduled to stop at ST, so I opted for the 2:08 NY&LB train, which was. The 2:11 Trenton Local was also scheduled to stop there. [North River tunnel work limits trains to one tunnel on weekends; trains run on a three minute headway in one direction for 25 minutes, then after a five minute hiatus to clear the tunnel, they run the other way for 25 minutes.]
At 2:11 it was announced that Amtrak had reported downed catenary and that we were experiencing a delay of indefinite duration. We left at 3:11 and went through the eastbound tunnel, stopping shortly after emerging. I was surprised to see an eastbound Arrow III train heading into the westbound tunnel; Amtrak must have shut down the work to open the tunnel and alleviate the congestion. We spent another 20 minutes just short of Secaucus Transfer station, during which five eastbound trains passed on the outside westbound track. [One might call this track 4, but the Secaucus Transfer Station brochure names the tracks 2, A, B, and 3 instead of 1, 2, 3, and 4 (respectively)]
eastbound train on westbound track
Since I was running late, I decided to head for Hamilton, so I got off at Secaucus Transfer, intending to board the Trenton Local right behind us. As I appeared to be lost, an NJT employee on the platform asked me where I was going. I replied 'Hamilton' as the doors closed, and he told me to get back on and change at Newark for the Trenton Express (train #7851 out of NYP at 2:54), as the Trenton Local had left ahead of us. He said "Don't leave!" into his radio, and the doors opened two seconds later and I re-entered train #7249, getting off at Newark.
Train #7249 came in 10 minutes later, and the rest of the trip was uneventful.
Exactly, but the sun was shining brightly into the windows and none of my photos turned out. Also, I wanted to get to the CNJ Festival as close to 10 AM as I could. The RV train was pulling into the platform as the NEC train was pulling out.
Addendum to the original post: On my way home from Hamilton I stopped at the Trenton station to photograph the light rail station. Since I was there, I walked across the street and photographed an Amtrak train leaving Trenton station behind AEM7 #916.
One of them (I don't remember where) was of a trackless trolley with catenary and pantograph. A rail was laid in the street under the center of the vehicle for the return current.
The highlight of the traction slides, though, was a visit by a Chapter member to the Brookville shop, where he was permitted inside to photograph SEPTA's PCCs being rebuilt for route 15 service. He showed slides of bare shells (no paint, nothing but bare metal) inside and out, as well as cars not yet stripped to that extent and cars rebuilt beyond that extent. Different colored metal made it obvious what was original and what had been added by the Brookville shop.
He also photographed the motorman's operating console of #2320 a week before it was delivered to Philly.
A railroader who takes digitals asked me about that after the meeting. As the only member of the Chapter Board of Directors into digitals, I felt that it could be considered a self-serving conflict of interest for me to suggest that the Chapter obtain an LCD projector. There are three of us now, so I'll consider bringing it up.
The Board leans toward conservatism (this is a huge understatement).
Does it matter which way the window faces? If not, why have that little message?
However, recently the frames were reversed to be screw side-in so as to make it easier to replace the panel when necessary. Now when a door panel needs to be replaced, the person can replace it from the interior of the car instead of from a ladder on the outside of the car.
Because the glass needs to be aligned properly with the frame, the "this side out" is now in since the frame itself is now reversed. This might explain to you why scratchitti on some panels are now on the exterior side of the glass. When they flipped the frame, they kept the same glass panel.
There have been many plans floating around for many years. I've actually lost count. I found a reference to possible plans for an elevated Crosstown line in a Brooklyn Eagle article from 1902.
It *might* have been done while rebuilding the Franklin... it *does* run on its own ROW and not above a street: It could have gone underground starting at Park Place, so the grade would not have to ahve been a problem... but connecting it to the Fulton, aye, there's the rub, and is it better to have tied up that whole lion for a time indeterminable, not to mention over loading the Cranberry for a service such as this, or would it, given the budgets of the time, make the repairs that they did, and let it go at that.
Elias
Next weekend, 3 weekends of the Q shuttle buses between Prospect park and Brighton Beach.
What I was interested in was whether a new connection was planned for the Fulton St. el. The rebuilding never reached Franklin, but only stopped around Nostrand. What would they have done with the severed junction if they had continued down past Franklin?
Sorces:
1895 Rand McNally Map Of Brooklyn
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/malbone01.html
Malbone Street Disaster Nov. 1, 1918
Elias
That plan really didn't go anywhere (this was at the same time that the Queens Boulevard line was being drawn up), but I've wondered if the Greenpoint Avenue station on the G line was laid out in the way it is (with the platform well to the north of Greenpoint Avenue, requiring a bit of a walk through the mezzanine. Why wasn't the platform placed a little further south?) to make room for an east-west line along Greenpoint Avenue.
I know a new tunnel would be preferable, but just in case.....
As for the Rutgers, yes it is under used, but I'd run another IND train through there (The (C) 8th Ave Local / Culver Express).
Another reason I never mix my new lines with existing infrastructure is because of a vast gulf in technologies, my trainsets cruise at 75mph on their express runs, using highly computerized control systems to provide precise timings that the Rutgers Tunnel could not acheive.
Elias
(I am typing this from an office with a view of the Atlantic Ocean, near the east end of Oriental Boulevard.)
Next and last stop: Manhattan Beach/Kingsborough Community College.
That's more like it.
Yes, that has bothered me, and could be re-thought, though I'm not so certain that there is a trafic demand to support that: (At the risk of being flamed) 1) People who work downtown are RICH and do not live in Alphabet City; and 2) I keep showing only parts of my transit plan, but some service concepts that are not shown include Free LRV/Trolley services that would cover these areas.
My major premise includes the elimination of all private automobiles south of 60th Street, and the provision of free trolley/bus transporation in the CBD. The subways bring people into the CBD, street rail circulates them once they are there.
Elias
Far be it from me to flame you, but it is simply untrue.
1. Note that a sizeable portion of those who died at the WTC were low income workers.
2. Wander around Wall Street and environs some day. Many people there are not attired in standard upper middle class garb.
3. There is more to downtown than Wall Street. The average income levels drop considerably in the area of the city office buildings, Fulton St, etc.
(G) Coney Island - Franklin - Crosstown - 63 - 6 Lcl - 2nd Av
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 53 - 6 Lcl - Cranberry or Rutgers - Hoyt/Schermerhorn - Bedford/Nostrand
or for the hyper-revolutionary lovers of Circle Lines
(N) Coney Island - Franklin - Crosstown - 63 - Bway Exp - 4 Exp - Sea Beach - Coney Island
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 53 - 6 Lcl - Cranberry or Rutgers - Hoyt/Schermerhorn - Bedford/Nostrand
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Whitehall (- 4 Lcl - West End - 9th Av or Bay Pkwy) at the combined frequency of the 2004 N and W trains
I don't know how real this ever was, but I do know that Hyland wanted a city-owned route to Coney Island, and these developers weren't shy about including it on their map. It would have also made (what is now) the Franklin shuttle line completely redundent.
It wouldn't have been a bad idea to run under Flatbush Ave however because the B41 is the busiest bus line in Brooklyn.
VRE will still have minor delays on the Fredricksburg Line until Virginia Dominion Power restores power to the entire line. Some signals and crossing are being powered by generators but when these generators run down or are stolen (yes, apparently people are stealing them), restrictions must be put in place. In addition, no tickets can be purchased because some communication line is underwater; TVMs can only validate tickets. Finally, automated announcements can not be made over station PAs, each station must recieve a manual announcement. Some stations do not have electricity and phone service so no announcements can be made at those stations.
All other DC area services are expected to be normal with the exception of detours on some bus routes.
A few weeks ago, Sea Beach Fred called out for his fellow Sea Beach fans...okay, so I'm late...
My tributes to Sea Beach are often personal, and this is no exception. Here's a new analogy...keep in mind the advent of fall and of winter...
There's often a lot of folliage along Sea Beach. There are often trees or vines that hang down in stations and along the tracks between stations. Then there is that ditch between 8th Ave and New Utrecht.
So it winter, when it's full of snow, it's a scene out of Currier & Ives...houses along Sea Beach are decorated...some have wind chimes, some xmas lights, etc...
In the summer, there are some clothes on the line (an honest to god backyard Bklyn scene)...
but during the warmer months, the folliage creates this "tunnel of love" scene...I was waiting for the N at New Utrecht at night...I was probably the only one...I was listening to my music, yep, some love songs...and looking at those branches or vines (some kind of hanging folliage)...and was thinking to myself...this is just like the tunnel of love...like the ones at amusement parks...
You just don't get that along Brighton...you think sunlight on brighton, but what happens when the sun sets?
Plus, it's called Sea Beach, i.e. water: a great force of nature...
Yep, folks...I'll admit that I was in a state of love...plus, "love" lives in Astoria and also takes the N train...hopefully, this relationship works...
When we first met and were exchanging numbers, I didn't quite have a piece of paper...I did have the N train timetable and that's where he wrote his number for me...so there you go...
Yes, the N Sea Beach has to be one of the most romantic train lines...my aunt and uncle met on the N and have been happily married for 20 some years...I hope to follow suit...
Jonathan
I can only wish you the very best with your new romance. If your love lives on the other end of the N line in Astoria, I'd suggest a romantic dinner at a Greek seafood restaurant on Broadway (the name escapes me, but it's a short walk from the N Broadway station).
It was my pleasure to ride the Sea Beach this past summer with a famous SubTalker and remember remarking about the lush greenery complementing the right of way. Your post captures the flavor.
Can you notice the small detail that happeed to work its way into his rather mundane image of the rear of Q Tower as my Amtrak train to Boston made its way through HAROLD interlocking?
First person not named Chapter 11 who finds it gets a gold star. Its a little easier now that the image has been cropped and whatnot.
The MTA managed to get the area around Court House Square done.
: )
Try the conductor or brakeman.
Engineers sit on the other side of the locomotive to do their thing.
Sounds to me like the train was sitting still. Maybe the engineer was out on the ground "draining his main reservoir"or checking over brake rigging, wheels, etc......and as long as the train IS standing still for any length of time, the crew SHOULD take a nap with the hours and working conditions they endure going to work.
I've even heard dispatchers of a major railroad out west here tell crews "You're gonna be in the hole for awhile, so if you'd like, take a nap and I'll wake ya when things are getting close...."
As for the Pasedena surplus, I think it should go first for improvements on the line, particularly those that were lost to cost-cutting and would give the most long-term value. As that makes the most sense to me, I assume that will never happen and that the money will be given (returned?) to the municipalities.
George Santayana, 1903.
The engineer, whose name was not released, told police he was instructed by his supervisor to stop the train after passing the intersection Friday. But he didn't pull the train far enough forward to raise the intersection's crossing gates.
He told officers he had passed the limits set by federal law, which restrict the maximum hours engineers may operate a train without being replaced, police said.
Police and fire officials directed traffic around the gates until a second engineer arrived and moved the train.
2. (C) 8th Avenue Local, Grand Concourse Local, CPW local
Euclid Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street) Middays and Rush Hours
Evenings, Weekends, Euclid Avenue to 145th Street Manhattan
Nah....
I like:
(V) 6th Ave Lcl to Chambers St. WTC / Day Times
(C) 8th Ave Lcl to Kings Highway via Rutgers/Culver Espress / Day Times
(E) 8th Ave Exp to Euclid via Fulton Local / Day times
(E) 8th Ave Lcl to Chambers St. WTC / Night Times
I *like* the idea of giving Sixth Avenue direct access to downtown.
I *like* the idea of Culver service to both 6th and 8th Avenues.
Yeah, it is a little dumb to have the Local go all the way to Coney Island and the Express ending at Kings Highway, but that is the way the tracks are laid out, and besides it was always the IND Ideal to have locals feeding express trains in the outlying sticks. And you have to admit that the Culver Line *is* out in the sticks.
Elias
Idea:
(C) Local to Av X
(F) Express merges into Local North of Av X then continues to CI
This is one of my ideas:
(A) 207St-Rockaways (except nights) 8Av X CPW X Fulton X
(B) (207St-)168St-Pacific(-CI) (nights to 207) 6Av X CPW L 4Av X West End (nights not to CI)
(C) (205St-)BPB-145St-WTC (weekends/nights to 205) 8Av L CPW L
(D) (205St-BB) (16/5) 6Av X CPW X Brighton X
(E) (JC-)QP-WTC/Lefferts (nights from QP) WTC:8Av L;diamonds Lefferts: 8Av X Fulton L QB X
(F) (179St-)21St-Church(-CI) (nights from 21 St) 6Av L Smith L QB X
(G) (JC-)Court-Smith(-Church) (nights from JC) X-town 16/5 to Church
(J) JC-Broad(-9Av-Bay P-CI) rush hour Bay P;midday 9 Av;nights CI 4Av L BBway L (rush hour skip-stop)
(M) Metro-Myrtle(-Broad) BBway X
(N) (Astoria-)59St-CI (Except nights from Astoria) Bway X 4 Av X
(R) (179St-)FH-95St (nigthts from 179) QB L Bway L 4Av L
(V) (FH-CI) 16/5 QB L 6Av L Smith X
(W) Astoria-Whitehall Bway L
(Z) JC-Bay Pkway BBway X 4Av L
Major idea behind this service plan:
late nights cut back of expresses and extending of locals to replace them and avoiding of (cross)switching
The beauty of my suggestion is that flying crossovers already exist south of West 4th Street.
Yes, their is an (F) (V) merge north bound, but the (V) is just starting its run, and can be timed to merge nicely with the (F)s even if the (F)s are delayed.
More difficult is the (F) (C) merge southbound, because both trains are mid-run at this point, yet their frequencies is not enough to tie up the whole line.
Elias
without mixing it.
So with using the flyover:
C 168-CI (8 Av L CPW L Smith X)
E JC-Euclid (8 Av X 60St Fulton L)
H JC-CI (8 Av L 60St Smith L)
F 179-WTC (6 Av L 63St QB X)
V FH-WTC (6 Av L 60St QB L)
TPH of E+H=current TPH of E
No way can you change the A and D routes like that, there will be opposition. A is ALWAYS Inwood-207 and D is DEFINITELY Norwood-205, the A and D are more closely linked with their northern terminals than their southern.
The historic letter - branch connections are:
A/B => Washington Heights
C/D => Grand Concourse
E/F => Queens Blvd
A/C/E => 8 Av
B/D/F => 6 Av
I'm using this "connection".
The only night express that remain are:
(B) 6Av;(E) 8 Av;(Q) Bway
PS:
About CPW night express there had been a big discussion in July:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=532245
Forgot it? (Or hadn't you been 2k2?)
As for the Pasedena surplus, I think it should go first for improvements on the line, particularly those that were lost to cost-cutting and would give the most long-term value. As that makes the most sense to me, I assume that will never happen and that the money will be given (returned?) to the municipalities.
George Santayana, 1903.
-transitblog.com
"There's absolutely no correlation between a mine and a subway tunnel," he said. "Subway tunnels are for trains. Mines are for mine workers where actual physical labor is done."
So I suppose it's the signal fairy and the spike muse that takes care of the infrastructure, those pandrol clips just fly out of a box in Brooklyn and find their way to the rails by sheer wizardry? When I was a motorman, it was harsh on the eyes going in the hole, as well as coming out owing to the amazing differences in illumination between inside and out. And I remember when many cars didn't HAVE headlights. God HELP any trackworkers just inside the portals as I was headed "in" ... I wouldn't have seen them until my eyes adjusted.
I know the MTA doesn't want to have to spend the money, but this is a VALID issue ... unless of course there really *is* a track fairy.
David
However, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is the Union's assertion that the normal lighting levels in the tunnels are insufficient.
David
Why do modern trains have these handles? Every subway and commuter train rider knows that these handles are never to be used. I still remember seeing the black on white emergency instructions plastered on the walls of the R-32's back in the '70s. (I used to try to read the Spanish side - I never got past "AVISO"). I'd think that by now any purpose the brakes once had (and I don't know what that might have been), would surely have been eliminated.
Well if the conductor left behind is the one assigned to your car, you won't have to pay!! Do you want to pull the cord just so he can get on to punch your ticket?
The R142's have them, but they're behind a door that sounds an alarm if opened.
And, of course, as has been discussed here many times, the R-142 cord doesn't actually engage the emergency brake if the train is between station.
Robert
Depending on what the emergency is, this could be a problem.
If someone is having a heart attack, and some dodo pulls the cord, all you will do is delay EMS response.
I think the idea is if someone falls or is trapped in a door, you will pull the string before the train is out of the station.
A small fire? You probably want to get into the next station, a big fire? Yeah you gotta stop right away. But in that case the C/R can always dump the air.
I didn't know that there was an intercom, but as soon as I got on the train, I found it, and the instructions were quite clear.
Elias
What is a T/O spose to do in this case? I have asked TSS before and they say use you jogment on the what to do.
Robert
And that is the best you can do. If the TA has any gumption they will back you up 100% either way. The train is 600' long, neither you nor your C/R can monitor the whole damn thing.
The rule of dyslexic binaries applies here:
If you stop it will be a heart attack.
If you continue it will be a kid under the wheels.
But even if it is a kid under the wheels, you will not be able to stop soon enough to help him: It takes time for the PAX to react and pull the string, and then it takes time for a train even BIE to come to a stop. You probably do the kid and the firefighters a favor by getting your train off the top of him. If he had life or limb over the rail, he's toast anyway.
Elias
Do what I do. I never ackowledge the TOD while the train is in motion. Your not supposed to be doing anything other then observing the right of way when the train is in motion. As far as I know, we have not been instructed to stop the train and acknowledge the TOD when it's flashing. Thats the only way you would know if someone is attempting to stop the train. If the Conductor is acknowinging his display and trys to inform me of a problem, I wo'nt know about it till I get to the next station. That's when I would answer the intercom. That's your out, the TA designed the system let them deal with it. Remember the TOD tells you nothing untill you acknowledge it, so it can inform you of a problem. Sorry not while I'm operating.
By the way, I'd like to say hello to all. This is my first post in a long time.
yeah cuz if you hit a signal while acknowledging that screen, its your rear if it wasn't a valid reason.
Does the R142 not have door sensors which open the door and lock the brakes in that event?
And I've posted before what happens when someone tries to hold the doors with a newspaper. (Granted, that was on an R-62A; the R-142 system may be more sensitive.)
Anyway, this reminds me of once a long time ago when I was standing in a doorway at a side platform station (Knickerbocker Ave) with a bag. Without me noticing, the doors closed between my bag and the handles. It was on either an R30 or a pre-GOHed R42 or something), when there was enough space for the doors to close on the handles of the bag, and still register as closed. Well anyway, the doors closed, and there I was holding onto the handles of my bag, and the bag was outside of the train as we sped along the el. To my horror, I realized that Wyckoff-Myrtle was next, and every other station was also an island platform station, and the doors weren't going to open again on that side. Luckily when we pulled into Metropolitan it pulled in on the side with my doors. It was an empty car I was in, and if I had let go my bag would have tumbled off the el! So I had no choice but to just wait till the doors opened again.
You haven't explore yet whether a closing door could open a strap of...OK never mind :0)
As seen in Title 49 Section 238.231 clause (i)
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION
PART 238--PASSENGER EQUIPMENT SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Specific Requirements for Tier I Passenger Equipment
Sec. 238.231 Brake system.
Except as otherwise provided in this section, on or after September
9, 1999 the following requirements apply to all passenger equipment and
passenger trains.
(a) A passenger train's primary brake system shall be capable of
stopping the train with a service application from its maximum
authorized operating speed within the signal spacing existing on the
track over which the train is operating.
(b) The brake system design of passenger equipment ordered on or
after September 8, 2000 or placed in service for the first time on or
after September 9, 2002, shall not require an inspector to place himself
or herself on, under, or between components of the equipment to observe
brake actuation or release.
(c) Passenger equipment shall be provided with an emergency brake
application feature that produces an irretrievable stop, using a brake
rate consistent with prevailing adhesion, passenger safety, and brake
system thermal capacity. An emergency brake application shall be
available at any time, and shall be initiated by an unintentional
parting of the train.
(d) A passenger train brake system shall respond as intended to
signals from a train brake control line or lines. Control lines shall be
designed so that failure or breakage of a control line will cause the
brakes to apply or will result in a default to control lines that meet
this requirement.
(e) Introduction of alcohol or other chemicals into the air brake
system of passenger equipment is prohibited.
(f) The operating railroad shall require that the design and
operation of the brake system results in wheels that are free of
condemnable cracks.
(g) Disc brakes shall be designed and operated to produce a surface
temperature no greater than the safe operating temperature recommended
by the disc manufacturer and verified by testing or previous service.
(h) Hand brakes and parking brakes. (1) Except for a locomotive that
is ordered before September 8, 2000 or placed in service for the first
time before Sepbember 9, 2002, and except for MU locomotives, all
locomotives shall be equipped with a hand or parking brake that can:
(i) Be applied or activated by hand;
(ii) Be released by hand; and
(iii) Hold the loaded unit on the maximum grade anticipated by the
operating railroad.
(2) Except for a private car and locomotives addressed in paragraph
(h)(1) of this section, all other passenger equipment, including MU
locomotives, shall be equipped with a hand brake that meets the
requirements for hand brakes contained in part 231 of this chapter and
that can:
(i) Be applied or activated by hand;
(ii) Be released by hand; and
(iii) Hold the loaded unit on the maximum grade anticipated by the
operating railroad.
(3) The air brake shall not be depended upon to hold equipment
standing unattended on a grade (including a locomotive, a car, or a
train whether or not a locomotive is attached). When required, a
sufficient number of hand brakes shall be applied to hold the train or
equipment before the air brakes are released. Any hand brakes applied to
hold equipment shall not be released until it is known that the air
brake system is properly charged.
(i) Passenger cars shall be equipped with a means to apply the
emergency brake that is accessible to passengers and located in the
vestibule or passenger compartment. The emergency
[[Page 553]]
brake shall be clearly identified and marked.
(j) Locomotives ordered after September 8, 2000, or placed in
service for the first time after September 9, 2002, that are equipped
with blended brakes shall be designed so that:
(1) The blending of friction and dynamic brake to obtain the correct
retarding force is automatic;
(2) Loss of power or failure of the dynamic brake does not result in
exceeding the allowable stopping distance;
(3) The friction brake alone is adequate to safely stop the train
under all operating conditions; and
(4) Operation of the friction brake alone does not result in thermal
damage to wheels or disc rotor surface temperatures exceeding the
manufacturer's recommendation.
(k) For new designs of braking systems, the design process shall
include computer modeling or dynamometer simulation of train braking
that shows compliance with paragraphs (f) and (g) of this section over
the range of equipment operating speeds. A new simulation is required
prior to implementing a change in operating parameters.
(l) Locomotives ordered on or after September 8, 2000 or placed in
service for the first time on or after September 9, 2002, shall be
equipped with effective air coolers or dryers that provide air to the
main reservoir with a dew point at least 10 degrees F. below ambient
temperature.
(m) When a passenger train is operated in either direct or graduated
release--
(1) all the cars in the train consist shall be set up in the same
operating mode or
(2) up to two cars may be operated in direct release mode when the
rest of the cars in the train are operated in graduated release mode,
provided that the cars operated in direct release mode are hauled at the
rear of the train consist.
(n) Before adjusting piston travel or working on brake rigging, the
cutout cock in the brake pipe branch must be closed and the air
reservoirs must be voided of all compressed air. When cutout cocks are
provided in brake cylinder pipes, these cutout cocks may be closed, and
air reservoirs need not be voided of all compressed air.
(o) All passenger trains to which this part applies shall comply
with the requirements covering the use of two-way end-of-train devices
contained in part 232 of this chapter.
[64 FR 25660, May 12, 1999, as amended at 65 FR 41307, July 3, 2000]
NYCT is NOT under FRA jurisdiction.
None of what you posted applies there.
By the way, if it wasn't for emergency cords, I Love Lucy would be minus one very funny episode!!!
The accident that the cord is most likely to prevent or
minimize is dragging. In theory, the door systems prevent
that, but this relies on periodic inspection being performed
properly and nothing getting out of adjustment in between
inspections. There are other openings which have no safety
interlocks, such as the end doors and side windows, which
could also result in a dragging situation.
The safest practice is to have a redundant system to stop the
train, which is what the emergency cord does.
Run in and hit the intercom and wait for a response, then say what is happening, T/O understands? Then the train stops?
Pull the cord, Stop the Train.
I feel it is plain STUPID that the EBV's for passangers are cut out after 600ft unless the end doors ARE LOCKED.
Robert
When somebody pulls the cord, they are opening the brake line. They cannot close it again. The train goes into BIE, and the crew cannot move the train again until they find out which brake cord was pulled, and then go out onto the tracks (or wherever the valve is located) and reset the valve. The train then needs to build up the air reserves again before the brakes will release.
Elias
With the "new tech" trains, there are sensors on everything.
If the cord is pulled, the TOD can tell the crew exactly where.
Instead of the "Emergency Brake Request" system, that cord could
have been tied to a real pneumatic valve. If pulled, the crew
would know what valve is open rather than having to go car by car.
One could even install a momentary action solenoid, controlled
by the computer system, to allow the crew to reset the valve
remotely.
Also, I'll be at the concert :)
1. Told us the 1 and 9 trains were running to SF again after a year on 9/16 edition, and the first day the trains returned to SF was on a Sunday.
2. Claimed they had an "exclusive" on the mess and fraud on the renovations of the MTA/NYCT building at 2 Broadway when the story was reported by nearly every print, TV and radio media months before this story.
3. Shows maps with lines that do not run. Map of Times Square I recall had the 1,2,3 at 50th st or A,C,E also at 50th st.
4. Had a column in the weather page called "The McKay Way" who Mr. McKay should stay out of the transit business altogether. This short lived column was a fake imitation of the superior Gridlock Sam, that McKay was telling subway routes that don't exist or don't run. Amd his directions are just horrible. (For the San Gennaro festival, on a weekend edition, he mentioned the 4, M and Z trains to Canal St.)
So that's where the TV series "Law and Order" gets their subway station decals.
If I recall correctly, Columbia University is served by almost as many lines as Times Square and is a major transfer point. :0)
16:51 Danbury Local was 3 cars, plus New Haven GP-38 with engine on the rear (south) All cars painted red stripe
17:21 Danbury Local was 3 cars, plus Metro-North FP-9A (paint looks battered up, mixture of Blue and Red, sounded like EMD), with engine on the front (north) All cars painted red stripe
17:51 Danbury Local was 8 cars, plus Genesis P-32 painted in 'Blue' Metro-North scheme, all car painted blue except the cab car which was red. Engine on front (north).
Never saw the Shore Line East train, but did see the return trip from New London (#1693) while whizzing up towards Providence on the Acela Express.
Comment about Acela Express: ride was bumpier than I thought, and speeds weren't really that fast (I could still make out the scenery even when the equipment is tilting). The train ran faster between Back Bay and Route 128 than between New London and New Haven. There are some significant curves on MN: Bridport, and Stratford. Definitely not worth the money, and I'm glad I didn't pay for it. For me, Northeast Direct forever -- when I'm travelling on my own dime.
AEM7
The quality of the ride may vary due to traffic, signalling etc.
Except it shouldn't. While I understand how difficult it is to build something that moves, and I also understand that the railroad environment is a vibration-ridden, mechanically-harsh climate, sometimes I feel that a new train with: (1) doors that don't quite open properly a mere four years after their introduction (2) chairs and tables that rattle (3) the PA system whining with feedback noises (4) sticky tape to stick a paper 'quiet car' sign to the ceiling (5) badly designed cafe car (6) tread brakes that makes a loud, vibrating noise... isn't worth the $90 one-way that a certain client paid for my trip. They should really have stuck with things that they knew how to build, and worked.
BTW: The Eurostar had the same problem with brakes -- they started to squeal some 2 years after their introduction. Rattling tables is actually easy to fix -- you just had to design a table that didn't respond at the resonance frequencies that are typical when train is running fast. Seems that Pullman did a better job of this in the 50's, despite all that disgusting vinyl. Dave Gunn was correct about Acela's bathroom lock. For all that hi-tech, the tables rattle, and the bathroom doors don't open (that didn't happen for me, but I could see how it might have easily happened).
AEM7
I have used Acela Express a few times and liked it. I wouldn't use it for very short trips like PHL-NYP or PHL-WAS, though.
"isn't worth the $90 one-way that a certain client paid for my trip."
What? You mean you didn't ride MBTA commuter rail to Providence and transfer to a conventional Amtrak service from there? Shame on you for exploiting your expense account this way! :0)
This was Shoreline East train to New London not Danbury local
>>17:21 Danbury Local was 3 cars, plus Metro-North FP-9A (paint >>looks battered up, mixture of Blue and Red, sounded like EMD), >>with engine on the front (north) All cars painted red stripe
yes this is Danbury local but it only had two cars and a F-10 (Metro North has no FP9a's)
>>17:51 Danbury Local was 8 cars, plus Genesis P-32 painted >>in 'Blue' Metro-North scheme, all car painted blue except the cab >>car which was red. Engine on front (north).
the 17:51 is not Danbury local but Express from New York makind Stamford then South Norwalk and then local stops is one of 3 expresses out of New York.
Incorrect. The 150mph stretches are between Canton Jct., MA and Attleboro, MA, and between Kingston, RI and State Line, CT.
in MNR, all u gotta know is MNR rules! and they arent even required to know NORAC anymore!
Yeah, MNR has weird ass signalling. What is a flashing red-over-red/green aspect? I've never seen such a weird aspect in my life. It seems to be permissive proceed -- so why not just a steady single red?
AEM7
P.S that is the bad side of MNR interlockings. the signal doesnt tell u ur going to switch like in LIRR OR NJTRANSIT OR AMTRAK. IN THOSE RAILROADS U WOULD GET A MEDIUM OR A LIMITED CLEAR WHICH TELLS U U GONNA SWITCH. in MNR, u have to read the switch and make sure it LINES u up with ur route. for example, if u are the now departing as i post this, 1110 STAMFORD LOCAL, u know at CP5 which is the major interlockin north of 125, u are supposed to be lined up to stay on 3 track or 1 track. if u go to 4 or 2, u are going to end up on the hudson line. most MNR engineers get a limited cab or a medium cab signal which brings them down to 45 or below or 30 or below, and that usually would tell them they are going to switch. if u continue to get a NORMAL, u are probably expecting to go straight thru the interlocking. example, if i am a STAMFORD LOCAL RETURING TO NY FROM STAMFORD, I EXPECT TO GET A NORMAL THRU CP233 which is south of stamford headed Westbound to NY. if i am a NY bound New haven express, my next stop is probably fordham or 125th street so in CP233, im expecting a limited clear and for them to put me on 2 track. btw, Amtrak engineers know our rules also especially if they go to BOSTON. they use MNR New haven line.
yes... but what I saw was not a STOP (steady double red) and not a PROCEED CAB (flashing lone green). What I saw was a weird ass signal aspect that had double-red and green flashing alternatingly, i.e. the double-red is lit for 0.7 seconds, followed by green for 0.3 seconds, and then back to double red for 0.7 seconds, and green for 0.3, etc etc. I'm sure there is a logical explanation for it, but it was a weird ass aspect, not like anything I had seen before.
I saw this signal at the platform starter on Track 3 at Stamford, heading Southbound. I think there was a Shore Line East train in the track, it may have meant pull over the interlocking and reverse; but then I think I saw it again when there was a semi-fast heading down to New York in the track, but I couldn't see the signal when it was sitting there; the signal appeared to be that way when it headed down into Track 3; it did not pass it, and stopped for about 3 mins, so the signal may have changed by the time it departed.
AEM7
And where did you hear this?
No, it runs at 135 south of NYP. Between Providence and Mansfield, it hits 150 mph.
I often catch the MBTA Commuter Rail from Mansfield, where it does pass by at 150 mph. I even heard of a local cop who verified that for fun with his radar gun.
The train ran faster between Back Bay and Route 128 than between New London and New Haven
This surprised you? The curves on the New Haven to New London stretch are the most severe on the system.
There are some significant curves on MN: Bridgeport, and Stratford
No curves on Metro-North are as severe as on the New Haven to New London stretch. And Metro-North and CDOT forbid use of active-tilt on their segment of the Shore Line, having to do with the Acela Express cars being 10 feet 4 inches wide and their track centers being 11 feet.
1. From Whitehall to 71st/Continetal in Queens via. Broadway local in peak direction and Broadway express in reverse direction, weekdays only. No evening and weekend service.
2. From Coney Island via. Sea Beach 57/7 all times except nights and rush hours skips Dekalb with all weekday trains extended to 71st/Continental. Nights via Sea Beach shuttle to 36th st only.
Confusing enough?
It really was screwy. OTOH N trains to Queens running express in Manhattan skipped 49th St. and switched over to the local track just before 57th St. At least I rode on one such train once.
AEM7
Also break down the other qualifications if you'd please....
-Stef
Third year and beyond operators are also eligible to be invited for Shop/Yard, Dispatcher, and Instructor/Inspector training and qualification.
The above are general guidelines, which can be modified in individual situations... we're flexible!
Separate qualifications also are required for rubber-tired vehicles (buses, etc.) by the manager of that department (off-property use also requires a CDL B/P license and physical).
You're giving me something to shoot for!!!
-Stef
Another funny symbol is BUD for Anheuser Busch.
Ticker Company
------ ------------------------------
A Agilent Technologies Inc
B Barnes Group Inc
C Citigroup Inc
D Dominion Res Inc Va New
E Eni S P A
F Ford Mtr Co Del
G Gillette Co
K Kellogg Co
L Liberty Media Corp New
N Inco Ltd
O Realty Income Corp
Q Qwest Communications Intl Inc
R Ryder Sys Inc
S Sears Roebuck & Co
T At&T Corp
V Vivendi Universal
X United Sts Stl Corp New
Y Alleghany Corp Del
Consist: Electric Locomotive #6, D type units 6112abc, and N1 or N2.
til next time
Chuck Greene
I'm drooling over Sunday's route. Get to ride all 4 routes to CI, tour the 37th St yard, get go go thru the Essex/6th Ave connection again....MMMMMMMMM......Chryyyyyystie Street.......
Has third rail been installed between Sutter Avenue and the Linden Yard? Steeple Cab #6 is a fine engine but she all electric as are the Triplexes. Does the MOW Department plan to have a diesel standing by.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Q JAMAICA CENTER
BROAD ST,MANHT
funny how they havn,t put it in service yet.
til next time
In regards to 4652/53 going to the South? Possible. They might be a couple cars short with the R40M's and they might be loaning the cars out (just a guess).
1.what,s the route of the trip?(what lines are we going to and where,s
the lunch stop gonna be?)
2.are we visiting any yards?
3.who.s going?would like to meet yall
4.this weekend,there,s a G.O for the J line saying that service from
cypress hills to jamaica center will be replaced with the E train and
shuttle bus service.so i know that J service will be from crescent st to chambers st.what i wanna know is what track will the train arivve from,track 4 southbound to broad st or track 1 northbound to brooklyn?
thanks for the help,see ya at the trip:)
til next time
Who's going?
Hey Larry, what about you? I know you're an IRT man, but the BMT is cool too.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Koi
The ORIGINAL #1 train went from 57th Street - 7th Avenue to Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island...
#1 Broadway Exp (local north of 96th) 242 to Flatbush or New Lots (24/7)
#1 Broadway Local 137 to SF Weekdays/Saturdays only till about 10 PM
#2 7th Ave Exp 241 or Dyre to Flatbush or New Lots 24/7
#3 7th Ave Local 145/Lenox to SF 24/7
In February 1959, upon completion a major improvement to the local stations on the Broadway/7th Ave. Line, the service pattern was changed to one pretty much still in use, eliminating the time consuming crossovers north of 96th St:
#1 Broadway Local 242 or 137 to SF 24/7
#2 7th Ave Exp 241 or Dyre to Flatbush 24/7
#3 7th Ave Exp 145/Lenox to New Lots Daily approx 6 AM - 11 PM
Remember the old IRT Low-Vs did not have route #s, just route names.
After that station closed, trains terminated at E 180 St for a few years, and then alternate trains were extended to Dyre Ave. The swap to send #5 trains to Dyre Ave. happened in the mid-1960s.
-- Ed Sachs
Huh?
After the 3rd Ave line was torn down in Manhattan, the remaining portion ran on 3rd Ave in the Bronx. This was not the same place as the WP Road Line.
Now that I've re-read the post, I can see where I could have confused someone in the way that I typed it.
After the Second Ave. El was discontinued in 1940, some rush-hour Third Ave. trains ran to Freeman St. for a few years. By 1946 or so, this service had been discontinued, but service north of Gun Hill Rd. lasted until about 1950.
-- Ed Sachs
Your question is an intersting one. I assume that you are talking about IRT Route 1, the Broadway-7 Avenue Line and not BMT Route 1, the Brighton Line.
IRT Route Numbers were assigned in 1948 with the delivery of the R-12 cars. Basically it went something like this.
#1 Broadway-7 Avenue (originates/terminates at points on the Broadway Line north of 96 Street.)
#2 7 Avenue-Bronx (originates/terminates at points on the IRT West Farms and White Plains Road Lines in The Bronx. (Starting about 1957 Dyre Avenue Line also.)
#3 7 Avenue-Lenox (o/t at 145 Street-Lenox Avenue and after June 1968, 148 Street-Lenox Terminal as well.)
#4 Lexington-Jerome (o/t at points on the Jerome Avenue Line)
#5 Lexington-White Plains Road (o/t at points on the White Plains Road Line and after 1965 the Dyre Avenue Line as well)
#6 Lexington-Pelham (o/t at points on the Pelham LIne)
#7 Flushing Line between Main Street and Times Square
#8 Astoria Line between Ditmars Boulevard and Times Square. Discontinued October 1949. Reassigned to 3 Avenue El trains from November 1967 until April 1973.
#9 Dyre Avenue Line between Dyre Avenue and 180 Street(NYW&BRR Station) 1948 thru 1957 as an isolated line. Through service via #2 trains begins in 1957 but runs only from 6 am to 8 pm. Shuttles continue to run at other times now terminating at East 180 Street Station using #9. This last until 1965 when serviced is completely absorbed into the #5. Reassigned August 1989 to alternate Broadway-7 Avenue Line trains in order to facilitate skip-stop service.
The original subway ran from City Hall via Lafayette Street and Fourth Avenue up to Grand Central and then west on 42 Street to Times Square and then north on Broadway to 145 Street. Within a year service was also running to points on the Lenox Avenue and West Farms Line. If we consider that the IRT routes were based on the northern terminals then you could say the Route 1 began on October 27,1904.
For my own purposes I like to refer to the pre-H System routes as OS (Original Subway) 1,2 and 3.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Your question is an intersting one. I assume that you are talking about IRT Route 1, the Broadway-7 Avenue Line and not BMT Route 1, the Brighton Line.
IRT Route Numbers were assigned in 1948 with the delivery of the R-12 cars. Basically it went something like this.
#1 Broadway-7 Avenue (originates/terminates at points on the Broadway Line north of 96 Street.)
#2 7 Avenue-Bronx (originates/terminates at points on the IRT West Farms and White Plains Road Lines in The Bronx. (Starting about 1957 Dyre Avenue Line also.)
#3 7 Avenue-Lenox (o/t at 145 Street-Lenox Avenue and after June 1968, 148 Street-Lenox Terminal as well.)
#4 Lexington-Jerome (o/t at points on the Jerome Avenue Line)
#5 Lexington-White Plains Road (o/t at points on the White Plains Road Line and after 1965 the Dyre Avenue Line as well)
#6 Lexington-Pelham (o/t at points on the Pelham LIne)
#7 Flushing Line between Main Street and Times Square
#8 Astoria Line between Ditmars Boulevard and Times Square. Discontinued October 1949. Reassigned to 3 Avenue El trains from November 1967 until April 1973.
#9 Dyre Avenue Line between Dyre Avenue and 180 Street(NYW&BRR Station) 1948 thru 1957 as an isolated line. Through service via #2 trains begins in 1957 but runs only from 6 am to 8 pm. Shuttles continue to run at other times now terminating at East 180 Street Station using #9. This last until 1965 when serviced is completely absorbed into the #5. Reassigned August 1989 to alternate Broadway-7 Avenue Line trains in order to facilitate skip-stop service.
The original subway ran from City Hall via Lafayette Street and Fourth Avenue up to Grand Central and then west on 42 Street to Times Square and then north on Broadway to 145 Street. Within a year service was also running to points on the Lenox Avenue and West Farms Line. If we consider that the IRT routes were based on the northern terminals then you could say the Route 1 began on October 27,1904.
For my own purposes I like to refer to the pre-H System routes as OS (Original Subway) 1,2 and 3.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I spent close to two hours one afternoon rush waiting at Brooklyn Bridge for a ride on the last R-33 5 train. Once I saw trains coming through the second time, I gave up and went home. Turns out that the last R-33 5 train was removed from service that very morning.
I will not take this anymore, PHOTOS IT IS! ANY MUST TAKE SCENES???
Even applied to the 'meat' of his thread doesn't help much:
I will not take this anymore, PHOTOS IT IS! ANY MUST TAKE SCENES around NYC Transit????
Another poster that gets their grammar lessons from Engrish.com?
Maybe Nancy can have those door chimes after all.:)
email the MTA and tell them that you want the 8:29 and 8:39 Brooklyn Bridge trains to be express in the Bronx(or even 8:49 if you feel like)
http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
The Pelham Express saves a total of 2 minutes. I cannot find one instance in the timetable where the express overtakes the local ahead of it, let alone when service has gone down to 12tph!
Maybe a better thread title would be:
ABOLISH THE PELHAM EXPRESS!!!
You want the entire NE Bronx to come after you James?
It is true that during the PM rush not much time is saved but in the AM rush there is a big difference.
I take this train to/from Pelham Bay on a daily basis so I can attest to it.
Could be worse - could be the entire SE Bronx ;-)
Remember all the talk when the World Cup was here that they were going to show up, take over the subways, and head straight for the Bronx (while ignoring the games)? In any event, none showed up, mostly because the British government now arrests them all before any major tournament to keep them from embarrassing their country. But as for the future, you never know.
Stay off the tubes when the pubs close and matches end, mates!
Problem 1: I'm half-Welsh, so I'd be supporting Wales, not England anyway
Problem 2: I'm not all that interested in Soccer - Rugby's a far better game
Stay off the tubes when the pubs close and matches end, mates!
Actually I've been in a pub on Bradford St in Birmingham on a day when Birmingham City were at home. They were staging a lock-in to keep the hooligans out.
You are right that it is a bigger difference in the AM rush - you save 2-3 minutes, not 1-2. It is still not enough to make a difference on a line running every 3-5 minutes.
The timetable may say 2-3 minutes but I can assure you that much more time is saved in the AM rush. The amount of time I have never measured but my guess is that it is closer to 5 to 6 minutes. Whne you are trying to make a connection to another train down the line those extra few minutes saved can mean a lot.
And I doubt the savings is as much as 5-6 minutes. Every passenger, myself included, overestimates the time saved by an express. If you want to find out for sure, you'll have to time it yourself rather than relying on intuition. (And if you do, please let us know what you find.)
Having some 6 trains bypass 125th is an interesting idea, but I think it would cause more problems than it would solve. Even with many 6 passengers transferring to the express at 125th, the 6 gets quite crowded as it makes its way south. Force Pelham line passengers to stay on the 6 and the result is overcrowding as you've never seen it (but the expresses would be nice and roomy). The East Side IRT has a pretty decent balance of local ridership to express ridership, and that's the optimal condition, so let's keep it that way.
SAS as proposed will make crowding at the station at 125/Lex worse (although it will make the rest of the line better). If 125/Lex can't handle the extra load, then maybe the 2nd Av - Lex transfer should be somewhere else (eg, stops 125/2 (no transfer), 138/3 (transfer to 6), 149/3 (transfer to 2,5)).
Since the express track is already in place, it might as well be used to save through passengers a few minutes. The intermediate stations are more than adequately served at 8-minute headways.
Between the wars a sensible railroad would have bought land around its more desolate stations for high density lettings - it's a good way of making some money and boosting ridership.
No thanks! to the bruckner expressway.
N Bwy
At risk of sounding like E_DOG:
TEAR DOWN THE BRUCKNER EXPRESSWAY!
It's only a stubby little Expressway and it looks ugly and should be dumped in the East River!
TEAR DOWN THE BRUCKNER EXPRESSWAY!
It's only a stubby little Expressway and it looks ugly and should be dumped in the East River!
You are hereby sentenced to spend one full day crossing from the west side of the Bronx to the east side and back without using the Bruckner! It's the only cross-Bronx route that actually moves.
I love the subways, but roads have their occasional uses too.
Easy. Southbound 1 Train, 96th Street, Northbound 2 Train.
Um, E 241st St station isn't on the east side of the Bronx. It's squarely in the middle. Dyre Ave is considerably further east but only at the far north end. Even the #6 leaves a lot more Bronx to its east except at the very north end.
Occasional - like going somewhere in the boondocks on a Sunday afternoon.
I'm not proposing to tear the B expwy down.. but if it wasn't built, the whole area would have been more populated. And that would mean more passengers for the #6 line.
Although I agree the Bruckner is a horrible eyesoar, proposing to throw something in the river is utter foolishness. Besides, what would you do with all those vehicles coming off the triborough and the 3rd /Wills Avenue Bridges... throw these cars on local roadways with street signals? Do you know what a tremendous impact that would be for the people living in the surrounding area?
Sometimes as people we need to do some rationalization before we open our mouths. Not to knock you.. But start using your head more, that way very few people would dismiss your logic.
N Broadway Line
Actually, in Birmingham, England, they did nearly the exact same thing. They tore down the A4400 around the City Centre and the main A41 from the SE of the City now feeds into a maze of one-way local streets. The theory is that less people will drive if you give them less road to drive on. I'm mildly sceptical, but I haven't been back to Brum for a while, so I don't know how it's working out.
Sometimes as people we need to do some rationalization before we open our mouths.
Sometimes we need to realise what is said half in jest. Sorry if anyone took me 100% seriously.
Whether it's a good idea to deliberately go around tearing up well-used highways is a political hot potato that I'm not in the mood to touch this early in the day. Even if so, is it a good idea specifically for the Bruckner? I don't know.
They'd provide perfect ROWs for 6 track Main Lines ;-)
Brooklyn does need more expressways but im sure the residents would oppose it. and where would they have the exit ramps?
Couldnt they technically build an expressway OVER the Brighton line?
Those 9 extra stops............
Or perhaps overall service is being reduced during that period, and simply increasing headways all around would lead to underserved local stations.
Or maybe there's some other reason. I'm just speculating.
Presumably all trains after 7:30pm will run all the way to PBP. Through passengers will have slightly reduced headways to compensate for the slightly increased running times. Whether the reduced headways will make up for the increased running time depends on the exact numbers (and, I suppose, on the weather, and on the condition of one's feet, etc. -- if the weather in the station is nasty, or my feet are tired, I want to get onto a train as soon as is absolutely possible, and how long I'll end up sitting on the train is a lesser concern).
(As for 1/9 skip-stop, I don't think its final fate has been sealed yet, and its final fate certainly hasn't been definitively announced on this board. It appears that, within the ranks of NYCT, just as here, there is some controversy over whether skip-stop service is worthwhile. The general consensus here, with a few dissenting opinions, is that skip-stop on the 1/9 hurts more than it helps, and I've posted a detailed analysis supporting this view. We will see in a month, or perhaps sooner, which opinion wins out within NYCT.)
And that is not cutting it a little, little would be stopping the express at 8:00. Next they will try to cut midday express, the 6 will be as bad as the 2/5 where both trains together = 6-8 minutes, what a joke. The only good thing on weekends is shuttle bus service, at least then the crappy service is free.
And the express does help if you have to chatch a BUS which takes up to 15 minutes, no wait TWO buses have to take up to 15 minutes to show up (and this is near 177th Street/White Plains Road at around 9:30 pm).
----
The #6 runs every 8 Minutes all day Saturday and Sunday instead of 5 Minutes
----
I wonder how they could do that, since they are screwing Manhattan as well, but once the SAS comes, they might try to cut the 4/5/6 even more(no the 4 will be spared)
NO MATTER WHAT TIME OF THE DAY IT IS,TAKING AN EXPRESS TRAIN ANYWHERE IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM IS WASTE OF TIME!!!!!!! 1-2MINS TOPS!!YOU THINK THAT'S SOMETHING!?ITS NOTHING!!!GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS!!THE EXPRESS IS MORE TIMES THAN NOT,NOT WORTH TAKING!!!
Just get on the first train you see and enjoy the damn ride!
Looking at the map, the 6 express misses out four stops in a row, then five stops in a row. That's 9 less dwell times for a start.
Now, add to that the need to accelerate and brake nine extra trains for the local service. Either the express train is not getting much over 20 mph, or the local service has such good acceleration and braking that passengers are being smeared over the end vestibules
So i come to this result (please don't kill me):
The NYC subway signals and train safety system is completely wrong constucted!
Not wrong. Antiquated. Remember the original system ran far fewer cars. As such there was less weight; also the brake shes were probably much better than the current composite crap, so less distance was required to stop. It was safe for its time, but now running 10 cars with current equipment, its no good. Unfortunately it would probably be very costly to correct this.
On Williamsburg bridge the distance is the breaking distance
of the old trains, but i don't think had run such a high number of trains,
requiring short signal distances.
So i looks like i was wrong constucted
Regardless of actual level of service, at the time it ws designed with minimum safe following distance as a factor. Every (?) line in the NYC Subway uses a 2 block system, regardless of when it was built, starting with the first subway. So on the original IRT you'd have smaller blocks, and on the recent IND 600' blocks.
Again I say its not wrong, just a system where places were designed to handle the needs of 100 years ago, not today's.
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/shsk.htm
Better yet, if you were going somewhere on the 2, why didn't you transfer directly from the Q at Times Square?
Therefore it is better to take the 4, requiring 2 transfers because it is an express. Had he taken the Q to the 2, it qould have required him to ride out the Brooklyn local for those 4 extra stops. So what you say makes absolutely no sense.
< /SARC >
Besides the fact you're more likely to get a seat, I believe, at least in the B division, the locals have more RFWs
Using the TA's designation of Express/Local:
Express:
A - R32/38 (RFW), R44(NO)
B - R68 (NO)
D - R68 (NO)
E - R32 (RFW)
Q - R40 (RFW), R68A (NO)
W - R68/68A (NO)
Local:
C - R32/38 (ALL RFW)
F - R32 (RFW), R46(NO)
G - R46 (NO)
H - R44 (NO)
J/Z - R42 (RFW)
L - R143 (NO)
M - R42 (RFW)
N - R40 (RFW), R68 (NO)
R - R32 (RFW), R46 (NO)
S - R46 (NO), R68(NO)
V - R46 (NO)
I figured I could get to Brooklyn Bridge by the time the next 4 came. The 6 train came immediately after the 4 left. It was sat, I dont use the Lex line much.
Better yet, if you were going somewhere on the 2, why didn't you transfer directly from the Q at Times Square? I transfered to the Q from the F at 34th St. I figured I just take the 4 to Nostrand and trasnfer since it was less stops and maybe I could bypass a 2 train on the way.
You saved about two minutes bypassing those four stops. How much time did you lose with all those transfers? Even in the unlikely event that all your trains came right away, and even if you had only made the planned three transfers, it takes more than two minutes to make the transfers at Herald Square and Union Square.
And you think the reason your trip took so long is that your 6 was slow?!
I thought about getting off at 42nd st and walking to the 2 train but decided against it. And no, I did not want to walk through the long passageway at 14th street. Since I always have an unlimited card, I'd rather transfer by going to the surface and walking down 42nd street than walking in a LONG underground passageway.
You saved about two minutes bypassing those four stops. How much time did you lose with all those transfers? Even in the unlikely event that all your trains came right away, and even if you had only made the planned three transfers, it takes more than two minutes to make the transfers at Herald Square and Union Square.
Actually The Q came right away, and 4 did somewhat.
And you think the reason your trip took so long is that your 6 was slow?!
I wasnt basing the time of the WHOLE trip. This was an Express vs Local disgussion. In which case the 6 was like Molasses, and Three 4 trains passed.
I said that even if all of your connections came right away, you'd still lose more than two minutes just walking from one platform to another.
And based on your original report, your 4 train didn't come right away. On the contrary, it came just a few moments too early, and you just missed it.
Actually the whole reason I was going to make 3 transfers was because: I on the F train I was dozing off and on, and the last time I woke up, the doors were already open on 42nd street. I decided not to get up in a rush to run out of the train (in which case I would have walked one block on 42nd street to 7th ave to catch the 2 train), and just transfer at 34th st for the Q.
And based on your original report, your 4 train didn't come right away. On the contrary, it came just a few moments too early, and you just missed it.
The 4 train that I missed terminated at Bowling Green anyway. The TWO 4 trains that passed the 6 that I was on were going to Utica.
Hmmm...
You were going to take the 4 to Nostrand to get the 2? Man, would you have been disappointed.
The 3 stops at Nostrand. The 4 does not. Neither does the 2.
That's ok, it was really a 5 anyway.
And a 10-15 minute wait, and the train on the stand 10-15 minutes? C'mon, I think you're exaggerating there.
In Manhattan it was "really" a 5. But the train left from Woodlawn and was labeled "4"
And a 10-15 minute wait, and the train on the stand 10-15 minutes? C'mon, I think you're exaggerating there.
I didnt have a stop watch, but it felt long enough.
Aha! My friend, what you feel is deceiving.
I've many times felt like I've been waiting 10 minutes, look at my watch and see its 5 or less.
What would you need a stop watch for? I'm not saying you really waited 5'35.60".
Oh I just said that because I dont have a watch, I use my cellphone for telling time. I turn it off in the subway since I get no reception, and the time only shows when I have a signal.
Up until about 7pm the E train skips 12 stations to and from Jamaica Center.
Would anyone rather sit on the local train from 59th street to 125th st, or the express? 7 stations skipped, minus acceleration, braking, and dwell times. 1 to 2 minutes tops?
Also like TheGreatOne2k3 said, those minutes are more valuable than you think when you make a connection to a bus or another train.
There were times where I had caught the N6 JUST in time at 179th street (around 1am) because the F is express 24/7 whereas I would have missed it and had to wait 30-45 mins for the next one!
The CPW express saves about 3. Time it yourself. The A from top to bottom saves about 10. Time it yourself. If you're going from 145th to Herald Square and you miss a D, take the next B and you'll get there sooner than if you wait for the D. (Alex, you there?)
Yes, time is valuable. It's valuable to local and express passengers alike. Any train that runs express fails to serve the needs of the local passengers, who have to wait for the next train.
If you have a tight connection to make, leave yourself a few extra minutes to catch it. I leave home at 6:30am to get to work at 8. I usually arrive 15 minutes early, but I have two connections to make (1 to Q at Times Square, Q to B1 at Brighton Beach), and that makes at least two opportunities for something to go awry.
If the express comes first, you could save a substantial amount of time (the time still left for the local to arrive, plus the local's longer trip time). If the local comes first, you will save less time, but it is still not worth waiting for the express.
If they come together, take the express if it's not packed like a sardine tin and likely to be delayed.
There are exceptions. The Queens Blvd. express can save over a minute per stop between Roosevelt Blvd and Queens Plaza because the Northern Blvd. express track offers a very fast run and it roughly forms the hypotenuse of a triangle, whereas the locals travel its legs. Similarly, the Manhattan Bridge expresses save you time this way (though it would be more time if the trains could "haul ass" a little more over the bridge. But the total time across Queens Blvd. is bout 10 minutes (if the F were running express all the way to 179 St, you could save a little more from the end of the line).
Want to go really fast? Ceck schedules and catch the LIRR at Forest Hills or Kew Gardens - and thn hope you're not caught at a red signal in front of the East River tubes.
The express between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza saves about four minutes, assuming no express congestion (and no wait for the express). That's 48 seconds saved per stop, despite the triangle.
Similarly, the Manhattan Bridge expresses save you time this way (though it would be more time if the trains could "haul ass" a little more over the bridge.
IIRC, the Manhattan Bridge saves about seven minutes. That's exactly one minute per stop, assuming the DeKalb bypass.
You left out a really major one. Chambers to 96th in rush hour on the 1/2/3. It's always worth waiting for the 2/3 unless something is wrong with the expresses. The 2/3 will pass at least 2 1/9s under normal circumstances.
Waiting for the 4/5 downtown is also almost always far better than taking a 6 from Union Square to Brooklyn Brisge in rush hour. Usually a 4/5 passess 2 or more 6s.
The 6 often gets hung before BB. And it's not that they spend much time sitting at BB. My belief is that 6s end up ahead of schedule (Stephen is right about many NYCT foibles) and then have to wait their turn getting into BB and going through the loop.
You REALLY think that has to do with the (F) running express? So I guess if there was an (F) local that arrived at 179 St at the same exact time you wouldn't catch that N6?
Doubt it. It just so happens that's how its all scheduled.
And if the F became a local, you would probably find the N6 bus scheduled to leave a little later.
Out at Shenfield on the edge of London, it would be very silly to take a slow train to Liverpool Street, but the fast trains get up to 60 mph at a guess, and there are plenty of them.
There is something psychological about a stopping train. More than about 12 station stops and I feel my life force draining away from me. Ealing Broadway to Liverpool St (18 stops) is a quicker journey than Liverpool Street to Wivenhoe (5 stops usually, just over an hour) but I know which journey feels longer.
Well, here, I see 12 stops and I think I can take a nice nap. ;)
Then as if by magic, there would be an announcement:
"The train now standing at Platform 1 is for Chelmsford, calling at North Weald, Blake Hall, Ongar, Nine Ashes, Norton Heath, Radley Green, Highwood, Writtle, Widford, and Chelmsford."
If only...
Yuck! The Central Line! Pity Liverpool Street is so far from the District Line.
Convenient, isn't it?
Liverpool St is a pain of a terminal to get to as I found out when I was trying to explain to my girlfriend with an Underground map how to get from Epsom to Norwich. I ended up telling her to do South Central + Circle Line, although I would have done South Western + Drain + Walk (or Central Line).
In fact, London's terminals are a complete mess, and must deter countless potential passengers. This is why I am so disappointed with the current lame Crossrail proposals, which amount to not much more than a Shenfield to Heathrow shuttle, with a couple of extra branches thrown in at random (presumably a few people from the planning committee live on these lines).
Actually, anyone arriving at Waterloo effectively has the choice of King's Cross and St Pancras also, by changing one stop earlier at Vauxhall. Likewise Clapham Junction gives access to Victoria.
Liverpool St is generally a pain from anywhere on the Southern Region, unless you somehow can get to Cannon Street (Charing X involves huge amounts of backtracking, London Bridge involves an extra transfer or riding a bus).
(sorry, but I don't count the bus shelter between Baker St and Paddington).
Bus shelter?!? Marylebone is a serious terminal, and the plan to turn it into a bus station is long dead. When Platforms 5 and 6 open, it will be the same size as Charing Cross (although Marylebone will always be a slightly laid back place).
In fact, London's terminals are a complete mess, and must deter countless potential passengers.
Agreed. My least favourite is Euston, which is conveniently nowhere near Gower St Euston Square. Marylebone's closer to Baker Street than that - in fact, I've never got why an extra exit isn't placed at the West End of the Circle/H&C Line platforms - that would come out practically on Great Central Street.
This is why I am so disappointed with the current lame Crossrail proposals, which amount to not much more than a Shenfield to Heathrow shuttle, with a couple of extra branches thrown in at random (presumably a few people from the planning committee live on these lines).
This is why I am so disappointed with the current lame Crossrail proposals, which amount to not much more than a Shenfield to Heathrow shuttle, with a couple of extra branches thrown in at random (presumably a few people from the planning committee live on these lines).
I don't really understand how trains terminate at Shenfield without screwing up Southend service. Surely it would be easier to run the trains to Southend Victoria or whereever that other branch goes off that line.
A Heathrow Local would be a very good idea. I'm not impressed with the Richmond - Kingston part of the plan. That looks like it will screw up the Windsor Lines totally.
First on my personal wishlist would be to demolish Cannon Street station and instead dive down after the bridge into an underground Cannon Street station then continuing onto the Northern City line at Moorgate.
Any reson why Marylebone trains shouldn't all go into Paddington? Can't be congestion. Liverpool St is a very slick operation indeed in the rush hour, but Paddington trains get tired and have to sit on the platform for at least an hour before they can get started again.
Shenfield services run as a self-contained railway. Thanks to flyovers etc. they can reverse just about anywhere on the line without any conflicting movements with Southend/Colchester trains. Unfortunately, they used the awful up-down-up-down systen rather than up-up-down-down, which means that nobody gets a cross-platform interchange along the way.
It is because the Shenfield trains are so self-contained that this line is an obvious candidate to plug into the Waterloo & City Line, or the Jubilee Line Charing Cross branch. If that were to be done, Liverpool St Long distance trains could go into Cross-Rail, WAGN services into Thameslink, and then we could close Liverpool St down altogether. Sell off the land during a property boom and the project would be part paid for.
Often that's a matter of an additional same platform transfer at Woking or Basingstoke. I agree the Bournemouth Main Line timetable is a pain though.
Furthermore, as well as robbing passengers of some useful transfers, it reduces capacity by having some trains gaining a minute or two on others.
If I were running the South Western, I would have all Fast trains call at:
Waterloo, Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon
then have Guildford-via-Woking trains switch to the local to call at all stations, whilst Fast trains next stop at Woking.
Likewise, not many Norwich trains stop at Stratford.
I don't know the Great Eastern at all as well as the South Western, but that's probably equally dumb.
Ironically, it is the long distance passengers who will have the most luggage on the Cross-London trek and find it hardest
There are ways of avoiding a cross-London trek.
My favourite with luggage is:
SWT 16 or 23: Epsom to Guildford
Thames Trains: Guildford to Reading
Virgin Cross Country: Reading to Leamington Spa
Central or Chiltern: Leamington Spa to Solihull
A6, 69 or 69A bus: Solihull to King's Heath
Without luggage, I would do:
SWT 16, 17 or 19: Epsom to Waterloo
Bakerloo Line: Waterloo to Marylebone
Chiltern: Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill
35 or 35S bus: Birmingham (Corporation St) to King's Heath
You can see that I am one of those people who are pissed off with the SRA for abolishing the Brum - Pompey service.
Any reson why Marylebone trains shouldn't all go into Paddington?
Tell me how an Aylesbury via Amersham train can run into Pad. Once Aylesbury via Amersham is going into Marylebone, then Aylesbury via High Wycombe ideally should to. And once some High Wycombe services have to use Marylebone, all of them should.
Can't be congestion.
Pad is a very congested station in Rush hours. Okay, it doesn't help that the junctions at Acton and Didcot in particular are abysmally laid out (not to mention the entrance and exit from Old Oak Common Depot!), nor that Acton to Northolt is single track, but it would be difficult to get platform slots for all of Chiltern's trains. Thames trains have enough problems - that's why they're trying to add an extra platform between 14 and 15. Oh and Heathrow Express really doesn't help, hogging platforms 6 and 7 all to itself.
Liverpool St is a very slick operation indeed in the rush hour, but Paddington trains get tired and have to sit on the platform for at least an hour before they can get started again.
That might have something to do with Liverpool St being effectively a commuter terminal, whereas trains into Paddington might have come from Pembroke Dock or Penzance. It takes a lot more to turn around and clean the sort of trains you see at Pad than anything Liverpool St might dream of.
Shenfield services run as a self-contained railway. Thanks to flyovers etc. they can reverse just about anywhere on the line without any conflicting movements with Southend/Colchester trains.
Sounds like a good excuse to ride out to Shenfield.
Paddinton is not making efficient use of its platforms. Kings Cross is achieving more with less (11 versus 12 for Paddington?). It would be interesting one day to work out a terminus efficiency index, that is tph divided by platforms. Charing Cross would win, Waterloo would probably lose.
Whats this you are hinting at? A Subtalk field trip to London without travelling on the Underground? How about this one then:
Meet at Stratford
Stratford to Romford (GER)
Romford to Upminster (GER)
Upminster to Barking (LTS)
Barking to Walthamstow Queens Road (Silverlink)
Walthamstow Central to Hackney Downs (WAGN)
Hackney Central to Willesden Junction (Silverlink)
Willesden Junction to Wembley (not sure which) (Silverlink)
Wembley Stadium to South Ruislip (Chiltern)
Greenford (sorry, bit of a walk here) to Acton Main Line (Thames Trains)
Acton Central to Richmond (Silverlink)
Richmond to Wimbledon (SWT)
Wumbledon to Sutton (Thameslink: you thought I had forgotten it!)
Sutton to West Croydon (South Central)
West Croydon to Penge West (South Central)
Penge East to Bromley South (South Eastern)
Bromley South to Lewisham (South Eastern)
Lewisham to Woolwich Arsenal (South Eastern)
Woolwich Ferry
North Woolwich to Stratford (Silverlink)
Is that every travelcard-valid operator in London?
Could this be done in a day?
Rank 141 in the UK, Population 60,800.
At Rank 140, with a population of 61,300, Burton-upon-Trent justifies Midland Mainline and Cross Country Intercity trains.
Aylesbury isn't all that bad, you see. (And it's definitely not even the nastiest town in Bucks!)
Having said that, the line would have more point if reinstated to Rugby (137; 62,100), Leicester (10; 316,900) and Nottingham (15; 269,600).
In case anyone cares, other destinations formerly served by the Great Central are ranked as follows:
- Kirby-in-Ashfield 373; 27,800
- Lincoln 91; 80,600
- Chesterfield 113; 71,500
- Sheffield 6; 417,900
- Barnsley 101; 74,600
- Doncaster 115; 70,500
- Grimsby 79; 90,600
- Stalybridge 441; 22,400
- Manchester 9; 390,700
Of course the major beneficiaries of the Great Central would be the city of Nottingham and, by virtue of the Woodford Halse - Banbury spur, anyone attempting a cross-country journey from the East Midlands.
but it would be nice if someone were to come up with a solution to London's terminal problem in my lifetime (thats another 40 years or so folks, hope someone is listening).
Triple Decker station on site of St Pancras and King's Cross, with huge upgrades to all the tangential lines in North London.
Paddinton is not making efficient use of its platforms. Kings Cross is achieving more with less (11 versus 12 for Paddington?).
14, 16 if you count the H&C line platforms. I agree Pad is a bit slack, but seeing as Chiltern are pretty hard pressed having only 4 platforms at Marylebone (they want to build another 2), I don't know where the extra 4-6 platforms are going to come from.
It would be interesting one day to work out a terminus efficiency index, that is tph divided by platforms. Charing Cross would win, Waterloo would probably lose.
My guess is that the loser would be St Pancras. That's why they can give two-thirds of the station to CTRL without any damage to MML service.
Is that every travelcard-valid operator in London?
Unless buses and river-craft are counted ;-)
Could this be done in a day?
Yes.
Stratford d 0547
Romford a 0605
Romford d 0615
Upminster a 0623
Upminster d 0629
Barking a 0638
Barking d 0708 (grr, they had to be half-hourly on EXACTLY those minutes!!!)
Walthamstow Queens Road a 0723
Walthamstow Central d 0751
Hackney Downs a 0800
Hackney Central d 0816
Willesden Junction a 0847
Willesden Junction d 0903
Wembley Central a 0911
Wembley Stadium d 1002 (bit of a wait - the beginning of the half-hourly daytime service)
South Ruislip a 1010
E7 Station Appr (S Ruislip) to Greenford Broadway (12 min headways, 24 mins)
92, 95, 105 or E6 Greenford Bway to Greenford Station (2-7 min headways, 17 mins)
Total bus time allowed: 58 mins (looks a little high to me - I could walk it in less than that)
Greenford d 1132
Acton Main Line a 1149
Acton Central d 1222
Richmond a 1234
Richmond d 1256
Wimbledon a 1324
Wumbledon d 1345
Sutton a 1403
Sutton d 1415
West Croydon a 1427
West Croydon d 1445
Penge West a 1455
Penge East d 1509
Bromley South a 1518
Bromley North d 1605
Grove Park a 1610
Grove Park d 1617
Hither Green a 1620
Hither Green d 1627
Lewisham a 1632
Lewisham d 1637
Woolwich Arsenal a 1649
Woolwich Ferry - no idea on schedules, I'll allow an hour
North Woolwich d 1807
Stratford a 1821
I don't know whether you have ever got hold of a Southern timetablefrom years past. It is quite an illuminating experience just how little service patterns have changed over the years. Even Thameslink to Wimbledon is just bolt-the-Holborn-Viaduct-services-on-top without any thought as to who wants to go where.
Orpington services to Charing Cross have so few station to stop at that I have never understood why they can't stop at all of them (including St John's).
The 19th Century works pretty well on the South Western. Okay, the Windsor lines are kinda weird, I guess...
Even Thameslink to Wimbledon is just bolt-the-Holborn-Viaduct-services-on-top without any thought as to who wants to go where.
IINM, that was originally bolted onto the other line that no-one wants to run a train on: the Bookham branch. Do you know when Thameslinks to Guildford stopped?
Orpington services to Charing Cross have so few station to stop at that I have never understood why they can't stop at all of them (including St John's).
Exactly. And if more trains stop at Hither Green and St John's, fewer will have to use those really ineptly designed junctions to stop at Lewisham and more trains will be able to run. Pity DLR terminates at Lewisham - through routing to Hither Green anyone?
With a little bit more imagination and flyovers, Waterloo-Wimbledon-Mitcham Junction-Sutton-Wimbledon would have been far more attractive than the hare-brained slow Sutton extension services that have run instead.
Its South Central where the most reactionary stupidity is to be found. For example, once Lewisham services get to Denmark Hill, divert them onto the SLL, and stop then at Clapham, Wandsworth road etc. That way you don't need to run a dedicated SLL service, and people get more useful connections.
Thameslink to Guildford didn't last that long: about five years at the most?
Ouch. HORRIBLE reverse moves (unless you want to send it via Epsom).
However, that is a market that Waterloo could do better in.
What I'd quite like to see is:
- SC Victoria - Epsom (3tph)
- SC Victoria - Epsom - Guildford (3tph)
- SW Waterloo - Epsom - Dorking (3tph)
- SW Waterloo - Epsom - Dorking - Horsham (3tph)
That would give Waterloo passengers all the connections at Horsham (North to Crawley and Gatwick, South to Arundel, Littlehampton, Bognor, Chichester etc).
With a little bit more imagination and flyovers, Waterloo-Wimbledon-Mitcham Junction-Sutton-Wimbledon would have been far more attractive than the hare-brained slow Sutton extension services that have run instead.
They'd probably have to run via East Putney and the Windsor Lines - there isn't very much spare capacity at all on the SW Main Line - but I like the idea of Waterloo to Sutton.
Trouble with running a Waterloo-Sutton service via Putney is that Underground managers might have noticed. Sutton-Wimbledon line is the classic case of a political railway. Southern only built it so that Underground couldn't. Then once it was built it was never taken seriously. Just think what would have been possible had the Southern been as keen to rid itself of awkward branches as the LNER was.
Fine by me :-D In fact that makes more sense than having two Victoria - Pompey/Bognor routes.
Having said that, what really needs to happen is to end the silly stopping patterns and have all trains on the Epsom branch call at all stops (so little is gained by skipping Earlsfield, Raynes Park, Motspur Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West).
Sutton-Wimbledon line is the classic case of a political railway. Southern only built it so that Underground couldn't.
Making it Underground would be a very good plan. Pity Wimbledon - West Croydon got Tramlinked, or the District Line services could run, say Sutton to Tower Hill and W Croydon to Edgware Road.
Then once it was built it was never taken seriously. Just think what would have been possible had the Southern been as keen to rid itself of awkward branches as the LNER was.
Hopefully a one station extension of the Northern Line to Morden South. That would be a relatively useful interchange if the St Helier branch went anywhere.
The branch via Tooting should be sent anywhere but Victoria. Wimbledon to Victoria is (or at least feels) much quicker changing at Clapham Junction. Maybe it's not a bad idea to leave Wimbledon via Tooting as Thameslink, otherwise it should become a London Bridge route.
That just goes to show that D Stock is no lemon, despite its doors. The LBSCR South Central (eugh!) really needs to get a 3rd rail version of D Stock made and run a real suburban railway with decent acceleration, braking and 20 second station stops.
Really, I don't know quite what's wrong with anything on the LBSC - their trains suddenly manage to run fine between Epsom and Horsham, but Epsom - Victoria feels lethargic (even though the time difference is insignificant from the LSW line) and Epsom - Ldn Bridge is either a stupid indirect route via West Croydon or joining the Tooting branch's leisurely crawl.
The Northern Line would beat the Tooting branch to London Bridge hands down.
That's really rather embarrassing. Pity Northern General don't give a damn (I bet they don't even know where Tooting is!).
If ever there was a route to London that serves no purpose, its this one.
Yet it could serve a purpose - anyone wanting to get to the London Bridge area (in effect parts of the City, Guy's Hospital, a bit of KCL, and a few other random things) could transfer at Wimbledon from a SW train to a SC train if the SC train had a decent run-time. Currently, you'd be mad (or a railfan - if that isn't the same thing) to do that - changing to the SE at Waterloo, despite the dumb positioning of the SE station, is far better. Having said that, a certain town on the SW in Surrey did once boast the largest number of Mental Hospitals in any town in the UK.
The Wimbledon-Sutton section would be very busy indeed if it actually fed into a useful service (it passes the 'Chimneys' test).
What is the "chimneys" test? Sounds like 6 tracks on the SW Main Line is a relatively sensible idea. Send Eurostar up North and the 8 track line into Waterloo could finally have a sensible configuration (Up Windsor, Down Windsor, Up Main Fast, Down Main Fast, Up Main Suburban, Down Main Suburban, Up Sutton, Down Sutton).
Resist Tramlink at all costs.
I agree. It's not as bad as Midland Metro, but it still is a financial disaster. All because someone baulked at the idea of funding a West Croydon - Addiscombe tunnel. That could have left us an interesting train: London Charing Cross to London Waterloo via SE Fast, SE Mid Kent, SC Croydon-Wimbledon, SW Suburban.
My ideal train: Aluminium bodied CP stock (R stock never looked as good) but painted red with D stock mechanics, NO LONGITUDINAL SEATS and the old green and cream colour scheme inside.
Chimneys test comes from an old busman's saying, something to the effect that the money is where the chimneys are. The fact that everyone prefers to go to Morden rather than walk, say, to St Helier shows just how bad things are.
I still say the best solution is to plug as much as South London as possible into the Underground. Running fast long distance, semi-fast outer suburban, and all-stations urban metro services is far too difficult for your average TOC (only GER can do this, the SRA got thousands of complaints from commuters over the franchise fiasco). No point saving ten minutes getting into London if you then have to fight your way onto the Waterloo & City Line or worse.
My ideal train: pretty similar, but I like longitudinal seats, plus I would paint it different colours for the different parts of the Southern Region:
- ex-LSW lines: Indian Red
- ex-LBSC lines: "Improved Engine Green" - ie off-Orange
- ex-LCD lines: Grey
- ex-SE lines: Purple Lake
I still say the best solution is to plug as much as South London as possible into the Underground.
I'd rather run underground BR lines across London, such as connecting Cannon St to Moorgate (GN&C).
Running fast long distance, semi-fast outer suburban, and all-stations urban metro services is far too difficult for your average TOC
The only Southern TOC which has anything properly long distance is SWT. The SW Main Line Fast Lines have both the capacity and the speed to handle such trains.
Otherwise, it is really quite simple what should be done:
- run as many trains as possible on the Slow Lines, starting with the lines furthest in.
- once capacity on the Slow Lines is exhausted, the trains from further out can run Fast. (Exceptions: the SE Mid-Kent and Bromley branches are annoyingly easier to run off the Fast Lines).
- all trains on a particular line should have the same stopping pattern - ie all stops except on the Fast Lines. (Exceptions: the Exeter and Weymouth Lines when you get REALLY far out).
No point saving ten minutes getting into London if you then have to fight your way onto the Waterloo & City Line or worse.
But it's usually more than 10 minutes:
Richmond to Embankment takes 41 minutes, Richmond to Waterloo all stops takes 28 minutes, Richmond to Waterloo (stopping at Clapham Junction only) takes 20 minutes.
Wimbledon to Embankment takes 39 minutes, Wimbledon to Waterloo all stops takes 14 minutes, Wimbledon to Waterloo (stopping at Clapham Junction only) takes 12 minutes.
Anyway, you're just as likely to have to change Underground trains - and the connections on the SW Main Line are excellent.
10 minutes is an underestimate in some cases, but the LSWR main line pretty well places a ruler on the map. The District line meanders all over the place. How long would Richmond to Oxford Circus Central Line take? (this scheme pops up quite often). How about Wimbledon to Piccadilly Circus via Chelsea Hackney tube?
SWT is really not very good. Half-hourly services on the branches don't count as serious metro services by any stretch of the imagination. Compare Stanmore with Hampton Court, Chessington, Hounslow. For its importance as a regional centre, Kingston has terrible services.
There is too many TPH going into Waterloo or Liverpool St to send everything down twin-track cross-London tubes. Thats why I think the best option is Underground for as much as possible inside the M25, and then join the terminals for the outer-suburban and longer distance trains. Colchester to Reading, Portsmouth to Peterborough, Brighton to Birmingham, perhaps even Bristol to York, all direct via London. That is the sort of thing that would really get people out of their cars, and these wouldn't need extra paths, which is why the WLL services never seem to get off the ground.
49 Minutes on the Underground only, including 5 minutes to transfer at Victoria.
This compares to 28 to 34 Minutes with SWT, transferring at Vauxhall.
How about Wimbledon to Piccadilly Circus via Chelsea Hackney tube?
Probably not much less than District to Piccadilly is now - only the time to change trains would go. 36 minutes at a guess.
Again, SWT to Waterloo, then the Bakerloo Line would take 24 to 26 minutes.
SWT is really not very good. Half-hourly services on the branches don't count as serious metro services by any stretch of the imagination.
The problem is that currently the suburban services are split seven ways (Dorking via Epsom, Epsom all stops, Chessington, Hampton Court, Shepperton, Kingston Loop). That would limit each of those to at best 4tph.
Nothing more can realistically be switched over to the Fast Lines, so it really looks like 6 tracks from Clapham Junction to Raynes Park would be a very good idea. Then something along these lines could run:
Slow Lines all current stops
6tph Sutton (via St Helier)
3tph Leatherhead (via Epsom) *
1tph Littlehampton (via Epsom) *
1tph Bognor Regis (via Epsom) *
1tph Portsmouth Harbour (via Epsom) *
6tph Chessington
* these would all-stop to end the rubbish service levels at Ewell West and Stoneleigh.
Semi-Fast Lines not Earlsfield
4tph Kingston Loop
4tph Shepperton
4tph Hampton Court
4tph Woking
4tph Guildford (via Cobham)
Fast Lines
anything going beyond Woking
In case you're wondering what I'd do to the Bookham branch, I'd give that to the South Central, so that people in Guildford have a choice of London termini.
For its importance as a regional centre, Kingston has terrible services.
Agreed. Plus a reverse curve at Raynes Park so that Kingston to Chessington and Epsom could be run would be very useful. The buses take forever to reach Kingston!
There is too many TPH going into Waterloo or Liverpool St to send everything down twin-track cross-London tubes.
I disagree - the Underground has no spare capacity - new lines are needed. It merely allows for a number of different routes across London for these tubes. How about:
1) Waterloo (Windsor) - City Thameslink - Liverpool St (WA)
2) Waterloo (Suburban) - Aldwych/Temple - Holborn - Russell Square - Euston
3) Waterloo (extra pair) - SE Fast (curve on bridge)
3a) Waterloo (Fast) - Charing Cross
4) Crossrail Liverpool St (GE Slow) - etc - Paddington
5) Victoria (Chatham) - Hyde Park Corner - Marble Arch - Marylebone
6) Victoria (Brighton Slow) - Hyde Park Corner - Piccadilly Circus - Charing Cross (SE Slow)
7) Victoria (SLL) - Charing Cross - Aldwych/Temple - London Bridge (SLL)
8) Thameslink elevated over existing lines Blackfriars - London Bridge - Brighton Fast
9) Cannon St (SE Greenwich) - Moorgate (GN&C)
Brighton to Birmingham
That would already be a good route if XC hadn't insisted on the detour via Reading:
Brighton, Preston Park, Hassocks, Burgess Hill, Wivelsfield, Hayward's Heath, Balcombe, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, Clapham Junction, West Brompton, Kensington Olympia, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby Midland, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street.
perhaps even Bristol to York
Why route that via London?
Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Oxford, Banbury, Woodford Halse, Rugby Central, Lutterworth, Leicester Central, Loughborough Central, Nottingham Victoria, Doncaster, York.
That is the sort of thing that would really get people out of their cars, and these wouldn't need extra paths
You'd need a lot of extra paths to send trains through the Underground!
which is why the WLL services never seem to get off the ground.
The reason is more like the schizoid way our railways are run.
I'm advocating a mixture of Underground and rail works, more like Paris does it, but with a longer spread for Underground services.
For example:
Liverpool St has 43tph arriving at the peak hour from GER alone. There is no way a twin-track crossrail can handle all that. Either you will need a four-track crossrail (wasteful building two railways going to exactly the same place), or some people are still going to have to get off at Liverpool St.
The solution that pleases everyone:
Liverpool St to Shenfield services: Extended W&C line, Romford - Stratford - Liverpool St - Bank - Waterloo - Victoria - Marble Arch - Paddington - Queen's Park - Harrow and Wealdstone.
Southend, Colchester, Norwich services: All via Crossrail. You would probably have space for WAGN outer suburban trains too.
With easy interchange between the two, an enormous variety of important destinations is within easy reach, especially when the Central Line is added into the equation. I don't think this would be much more expensive than current crossrail proposals. Liverpool St would become a relatively quiet WAGN-only station, and a great deal of land would be released. At the other end, a similar exercise, with electification, and long-distance trains sent to Euston could see Paddington closed down completely. Spare capacity at the Western end could either be used for Marylebone services, or a Heathrow-Feltham tunnel, and Windsor line services going into Crossrail.
Repeat the exercise once every 10 years, and terminals would fade into the dim and distant past.
The reason why I want to route everything via London is that this simplifies what is on offer. You don't have to run two sets of Brighton trains, one to London (usually full), one via WLL (usually not quite so full), just one route, everyone gets on one train, and those who want to travel further afield just stay on the train. Nice and simple. Even now, York to Bristol via London is competitive compared with IC cross country, and thats allowing an hour for the cross-london trip.
12 MONTH STROOD TUNNEL CLOSURE
You may be aware of disruption to train services in recent years due to chalk falling from the unlined sections of Strood and Higham tunnels.
In order to restore the line-speed back to 70mph and to ensure safe, reliable train services for the long term, Strood and Higham tunnels will close on 17th January 2004 for 12 months whilst essential maintenance work is carried out.
Both Higham and Strood stations will remain open, but there will be no train services through the tunnel between these two stations. A regular replacement bus service will run instead which will add around 30 minutes to journey times into London.
Full details of all changes to services will be published at stations and available from National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50 and Connex Customer Services on 0870 6 03 04 05.
We are sorry for the obvious inconvenience this will cause and we hope you will understand the need for this vital engineering work.
So for anyone in Strood, they're suggesting an extra 30 minutes ride on a bus to Higham. Surely it would be quicker to get the first train to Rochester then the Chatham Main Line into Victoria or Blackfriars or even the first train to Paddock Wood and then a Fast train to Charing X.
More likely contractors, insurers and lawyers. Same effect.
But most railfans would forgo food, water, the toilet (they'd just hold it in), even air (they'd just hold their breath) in return for a guaranteed seat at the railfan window.
:0)
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If you're thinking of traveling on the 3rd...Don't. Hmmm, I wonder if its a sceret Amtrak ploy to get a 24 hour maintainance window on the NEC.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#A
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Amtrak replaces trains with buses and airplanes. NEC converted to 4 lane luxury "snobway". Contract given to haliburton.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#Will
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Sure we'll support high speed rail...PSYCH!!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#Will
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#Downeaster
I can't BELIEVE those clowns are still in business!
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It's about time. I've considered posting about the use of trainphones and the space they waste before, but never got around to it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#LIRR
Bill "Newkirk"
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Forget about big projects, from what I heard on my trips there I doubt the MTBA can afford big rolls of toilet paper.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#MBTAcan
Need I say more? :-P
I really don't have a favorite line, at least not one I'm particularly passionate about. I did like the Flushing, Brighton, Bway el and the Culver because they had interesting scenery.
I was at Rockaway Parkway on the Canarsie. A train of BMT standards was at the station. I board and we're off and all is well. The next thing I know, whooooooooops, the track suddenly disappears and our train keeps right on going!! It simply blazed its own path.
Guess who the motorman was? Big Ed? No, although it would have made sense, since he ran those cars. It was Kev! He boarded the first car and we greeted each other, (why not - we've met in person) shaking hands and all, but he had his motorman's face on. No moos, no neener-neeners. Hey, running a train is serious business, he says.
So Kev, would having the controls reversed throw you for a loop?:)
Nice reference to cows, BTW.
I wonder where the Standard is now.
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I wonder if they "forgot" to sign the cheque.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#MBTAbuys
The same happened with the LoVs years ago.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Well, only one of these is new to R160, but it is kinda neat!
What I was saying is that if CBTC is successful on those two lines, then it'll speed up the process in which other lines will be installed with it. If that happens, the R160s should be operating with CBTC (and correct arrows) for the majority of its lifetime.
Oh yeah, one more thing...isn't this kinda old?
The wait can't be too long for me. The first time I lay sight on the first R160, I will feel nothing but dread. I lamented the loss of the redbirds, but they're IRT cars, and I'm a B-division guy. The R160 spells doom for the majority of cars that I grew up riding. Geez, listen to me, I sound like Sea Beach Fred ....
[ ] The R-32s will be the first to be scrapped.
[ ] The R-32s will be the last to be scrapped.
[ ] The R-32s will never be scrapped.
[ ] The R-44s will be the first to be scrapped.
[ ] The R-44s will be the last to be scrapped.
[ ] The R-344s will never be scrapped.
[ ] The R-38s will be the first to be scrapped.
[ ] The R-40 Slants will be the first to be scrapped.
[ ] All of the above.
[ ] None of the above.
[ ] The R-160s are already being tested.
[ ] Some R-160s will be built to run on the IRT.
[ ] The R-110 B will be rebuilt as an R-160.
[ ] R-40Ms & R-42s may be scrapped or maybe not.
Based on this we should all have a clear picture of what will happen between now and 2008.
R-32.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#Sound
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I am going to go rip if EMD gets ruined by a bunch of new investors.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#Investors
Ok, not like GE's any better, but GE won. It's pretty much their corporate policy.
I suspect GM will dispose of EMD sooner or later, or, more exactly, when the long term profits < short term value from sale. That point's gonna come sooner or later.
I wouldn't be surprised if GE is using its other markets to prop up its locomotive division, enabling it tp undercut EMD.
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Stupid GE and their cheap-ass product line. Ruining the American rail scene since 1962. Alco killers!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#GE
GE's designs have their own merits.
Wait until you have had to work on one in a shop to say that... AEM7
Have you worked on one? How do you know that your opinion or Jersey Mike's is the consensus opinion.
As far as I can tell, there are plenty of folks on the other side who would tell you you don't know what you're talking about.
My comments stand.
A GE traction motor, yes. They're OK. I've also seen an EMD engine having its piston changed, and been close enough to a GE engine to notice that, even though I knew vaugely how to change a piston on an EMD engine, there is no way you could do it easily on a GE.
Then there was the small matter of diesels - while GE went and built them, ALCO insisted on staying with steam and not working towards its own future. When the inevtiable occurred and steam orders fell off, Alco made CHITTY diesels that put more power up the stack than to the motors. I'm sitting here right now WEARING my ALCO Tshirt, and all of us around here LOVED Alco, it died by its OWN hand. A *perfect* example of bad management, bad labor relations, and a general "we don't care" attitude. Pity it went away, but Alco did it to themselves. And worked VERY hard at killing itself, despite extreme "brand loyalty" by the D&H, NYC and a number of other railroads that tried VERY hard to keep them alive.
Unless you count the contract work they did for FM, GE didn't start building diesels until 1962 or thereabouts.
ALCO had been building diesels starting before WW2, but like the other old Steam greats, they were barred by the war production board from making road engines (EMD was barred from making switchers) giving EMD an insurmountable lead. Both the 244 and 251 engines of the post war Alco units were real winners. Unfortunately, by the time they got their act together with the Century Series, GE had entered the market and with the downturn in the rail industry there was just no room for 3 builders. Had GE stayed out of the market Alco would have stull been around today with AC644's and whatnot.
There's still a lot of Alcos on various shortlines and spur roads around here - I've operated RS-3's and RS-1's and even had the chance to play with an old D&H PA-1 ... every last one of them was broke-ass and there wasn't thing one that could really been done since they were never really designed very well in the first place. They were maintenance hogs, broke down frequently and you could always tell an Alco was running somewhere by "spotting the plume" ...
If Alco's management hadn't demoralized their work force "back in the time" they wouldn't have lost their most talented designers, machinists and mechanics to GE who ALWAYS had work. THAT was the critical factor in their demise. And that they made CHIT in their later years began a downward spiral that ultimately took them out. Unfortunate as all getout, shoulda SEEN that place in its heyday. But as current manufacturers are learning, you can only screw your workers (here or in China) so many times before things turn to chit. Alco never noticed until it was too late. And a LOT of their retirees got shafted in the deal as well.
Still, the folks around here who worked at American Locomotive LOVED what they did, and they did their very best to build good machines. Alas, management wasn't up to the task. And the unions had more than enough of it. Keep your employees as happy as is practical, plan AHEAD so you don't have to lay them off every five weeks, and ya might survive. Shame what happened to ALCO, but it WAS a suicide.
Selkirk, I would be a bit cynical of what you hear from the old Unionheads. Of course, that is a factor, but there were other reasons too. GE killed Alco when they came out with the B/C series; they withheld electricial component from Alco so they could launch their own diesel locomotive. In essence, GE always made Alco electrical equipment, and when GE figured out how to make a diesel engine, they took over, since the Alco diesel engine was never particularly good anyway. Yes the reason that Alco diesel was crap was because they never spent money on design and they never had skilled workers and they ran like crap, but had GE not entered the market, they would still have survived.
AEM7
Sole sourcing for a supplier works only if the supplier and buyer are not competing with each other. Jack Simplot has several potato processing plants devoted to making French Fries for McDonald's Corp. This contract at one time represented the majority of Simplot's revenue (I don't know what the percentage is today). McDonald's had to share proprietary information with Simplot. But McDonald's knows that Simplot is not in the retail fast food business itself.
As far as ALCO goes, I've spoken to retired managers as well and the story was pretty solid from both sides as to the ineptitude of Alco's arguing management. I'd hoped to be able to find a link, but all traces are gone. All of the remaining folks that were involved with ALCO up to the end were interviewed and presented in a one hour show called "The IRON HORSE in SCHENECTADY - LOCOMOTIVES FOR THE WORLD". The video was produced for the Public Broadcast Station WMHT in Schenectady in 2001 which was the centennial of the founding of ALCO. Videotape might still be available from WMHT, but all references to it have been removed from their site.
This almost one hour show, if it can still be found, goes into intimate details on how management failed for a very long time, how the unions were constantly walking out on strike and how Alco went out of its way to commit suicide. And it goes into how, after most of Alco's COMPETENT people went over to GE for "steady work," GE saw the opportunity to get into the "electric" locomotive business while Alco and it subsidiaries were STILL trying to peddle steam.
Trust me, I don't normally side with unions, but I don't side with management either. Generally, unions only sprung to life in bad work environments. When companies took care of their people, there was little need to pay another entity a piece of your wages for nothing. :)
But based on about 50 people I know here where I live who are always happy to talk about Alco, the sentiment is unanimous that Alco put a gun to its head and pulled the trigger six times.
It was a company with a VERY rich history and legacy, but they just kept phucking it up ... :(
There's lots of things that GE isn't #1 or #2 in... off the top of my head, LMSX has never been #1 or #2 -- out of all the car leasing businesses, I don't believe that out of GATX, FURX, TTX, UTCX, JJTX, GE Capital is really #1 or #2. Then there is the toasters. I don't see GE being #1 in home electronics (even if it is #1 in light bulbs). What's going on, Welch?
AEM7
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One small victory for Rail, even if it was an accident.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#UP
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Take that France. I forget, what's the current deal with Astlom? It's like changing hourly.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09222003.shtml#EU
One more thing, the Subway Series 2000 R36 set with the blue and orange
Mets logo painted on the front end of car #9394 is still in active passenger service!!!!
Dan
Is that so? 9394 is UNDERWATER
Fish and divers aren't passengers?
Thank you for correcting me!
Dan
Installation of front roll signs on the old IRT equiptment was never really considered. However the old IRT cars had very large marker lights and passengers as well as TA workers were very adept at reading the lights.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/25/nyregion/25HIGH.html
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr0925,0,2305427.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
BTW if he was here today the TA would have fired him. They don't like dual employment except for the reserves and that they are stuck with legally.
Of all the silly tower-related maneuvers I've seen, about half are thanks to Murphy. Like the time they sent a work train in front of the W train I was on, only to give the work train the lineup we wanted -- and to not correct it for a full ten minutes. Then once we got moving, they yanked away our lineup for a split second as we were practically on top of the homeball (and nearly gave the T/O a heart attack). We had to run express to Stillwell to make up the time, and I think the starting lights were already on when we got there. Then on the return trip, via Sea Beach (GO), Murphy again yanked away our lineup for a split second at the switch to the local track south of 59th. An occasional mistake happens, but twice to the same train less than an hour apart is pretty impressive.
To honor his memory, the TA renamed the 38th Street Master Tower to Joe Murphy Master Tower.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-baby0925,0,1527955.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
1/9/2/3: Going by the principle that longer-distance passengers should get express services, both Bronx branches (1/2) should be express in Manhattan and then both should head for Brooklyn, and there should be a 148 St to South Ferry local. However, the track layout at 96 St means that this would be terrible, with trains crossing each others' paths. Would it be feasible to rebuild the layout to corrct for this? Has it been planned or is it planned? A fellow subtalker mentioned to me that the 1/9 rush hour skip-stop is going and making the 1 express in Manhattan would compensate.
2/3/4/5: At the other end of the line, it would make most sense for trains from New Lots Avenue trains to run express after Crown Heights, not local (and vice versa). Again, I presume that the track layout prevents this. Same questions as above.
Finally, Bronx is the only borough not to have its own bi-directional all-day-and-weekend express service. At certain times someone travelling on the 2 from Wakefield has to make 19 station stops before even reaching Manhattan (17 on the 6). The problem is that all of the Bronx lines are three-tracked. In terms of feasibility and/or demand, could a case be made for any four-tracking?
Plenty of cases to be made but there is not enough room to add that 4th track widthwise (streets are not wide enough)and the elevated structures may not be able to handle the addition of another track above the existing middle track.
That would only require 2 track connections:
- the middle track West of Sutter Avenue to the Eastbound ("Southbound") track.
- the Westbound ("Northbound") track to that silly little stub track that can only access the Westbound Express track at Utica.
Then 4 trains could run through to New Lots and 3 trains could relay on the current Eastbound track between Utica and Sutter.
-- Ed Sachs
Why wasn't a flying junction built in 1904?
Because the Lenox Av line didn't exist back then. From 96th Street, all service continued north on Broadway until 145th Street.
I would suppose that advance planning for a "flying junction" wouldn't have worked considering that the line was built by "cut & cover", and the construction space alloted was limited.
The last one would decrease travelling time for passengers from/to the Bronx much better that 1/9 does.
Yes it did. The original cars arrived at Lenox Yard by barge. It just wasn't open for passengers yet.
The IRT knew how to operate a system without creating switching conflicts.
Peace,
ANDEE
The line FORMS to the rear.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm looking at getting down to New York IF there's going to be something interesting to attend (assuming I can get time off work - just started a new job and I'm not sure what my vacation time elgibility is). If not or if it's going to be a 'dignitaries only' event, I'll stay home.
Here, NOTHING has been said about what, if anything, is going to be done for the 50th anniversary of the TTC's first subway line. Unfortunately, unless drastic action is taken right now there will be no historic subway cars running, either open to the public or not. But, for sake of argument, let's say the TTC puts together a 4 or even 6 car train of Gloucsters, it would most probably run carrying selected people given that's how the other special events have been done recently.
But yes, I'm not a fan of the general trend of having private parties for public transportation special events.
-Robert King
Here's hoping BOTH systems arrange SOMETHING for us "great unwashed" ...
Hopefully 2004 won't be a repeat of 1994 when it was the 40th anniversary of the Yonge line and the TTC knocked together a six car train of H6 cars and sent it over to Yonge from the Bloor line where the 6s are based. At the time, the H6s were the newest cars on the system at about five years old and looked the same as everything else - half a dozen 75 foot aluminum subway cars running in a train. Much like every other 6 car train of 75 foot aluminum subway cars. That irked me because the retirment of the Gloucsters in 90 was still very recent in my mind at the time and they didn't keep a historic train.
-Robert King
You can rest assured that the TTC is going to plan something - they'll have an event of some kind even if only to campaign for government funding from whichever party is in office. But as for what kind of occasion it's going to be, have to wait and see...
-Robert King
Peace,
ANDEE
If he had time, and knew where the circuit was (because he logs onto Subtalk every day), maybe so.
But the article implies he had very little time and made the best decision he could under time pressure.
You're a good Monday Morning quarterback, but that's not saying much.
Police training should include a 1 minute lesson on how to stop a train in an emergency. Its 3 simple steps.
1) Jumper the rails
and/or
2) Place a lit red flare between the rails
and/or
3) Wave your arms or some other (preferably red) object in a violent manner in the vicinity of the trackbed.
Actually, in this case, jumper the track would have been bugger all use. Firstly, the train has clearly passed the last signal. Secondly, what if it is non track-circuit territory or some stupid cop tries to jumper the 3rd rail to the running rail? And cops are not required to carry flares. He should have stopped with the car OFF the right of way and used the sirens (or waved a handheld siren/red light ACROSS the right of way with his arm). Otherwise he acted correctly.
AEM7
Some single unit movements, like a single MU, a Budd RDC or SPV or lite engines, require absolute block protection to the rear because they lack axles to provide enough of a pathway to "eat" up the cab signal code. This would result in following movements recieving the same cab signal that the proceeding movement did. That's not good.
The cables would simply connect one rail to the another, simulating the presence of another train. The car's battery would not be part of the circuit.
I'm not sure if most jumper cables will stretch open widely enough to grip a rail.
Yes, you are, Selkirk. Most car jumper cables will jumper a track-circuit -- the croc clips not stretching wide enough might be a problem. And Mike has just explained that the croc clips will have "eaten up" the code in advance of the train, therefore the train will get a zero code, as long as the track circuit is properly shunted in front of it.
However, I maintain that cops are not required to know about signalling of trains, because it is conceivable that this same cop may transfer to Ohio and attempt to shunt the track circuit in front of an NS 12,000 ft land barge in dark territory. Therefore it is better to teach them the universal stop signal -- fast waving piece of red band or flare or even just a torch light going from side to side, across the ROW and the engineer's LOS.
AEM7
Applying a track circut shunt will make the signal system react as if there was a train on the tracks at the location you applied the shunt device. In this case the trains cabs would have immediately dropped to "15" and he probably would have made a full service reduction or gone BIE. In any situation, trains comming from that direction would have approached the shunt point (and ideally the tree) at restricted. Trains from the other direction would also be approaching at restricted speed unless there was a block brake between the cop and the tree.
Shunts in the form of a Track Occupancy light also usually appear on the dispatchers or towerperson's control board and they will usually instruct approaching trains to inspect the track for broken rails and/or flooding.
When you apply a shunt (jumper cables count), trains will approach that point prepared to stop. MoW crews use shunts to make sure trains don't run them over.
--------------- Quoted from NY Post ------------------
Suffolk County Police Officer Robert Coffman was on patrol in his marked squad car in Huntington just
after 11 a.m., when a motorist called 911 and reported a tree down on the LIRR tracks near the Lake Road
crossing.
Coffman was there quickly.
"I looked to my left and there was a very large tree across the tracks," said Coffman. "Then I looked to my
right and I could see the lights of a train coming. I thought 'Holy cow, this is not good.' "
When the crossing gates started coming down, Coffman flipped on his flashing lights and positioned his
vehicle in the middle of the tracks.
"I saw the train coming at me," said Coffman.
Fortunately, the motorman hit the brakes, which Coffman could hear screeching, and stopped in time.
------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't look like this Police Officer had much time to consult a track manual, nor did he appear to have much time to break out jumper cables and stretch them across the rails. Seems to me as though he got there, observed the problem, ALSO observed "Train is *HERE*" and did the very best he could given the circumstances and an OBVIOUS lack of time ...
I'm not questioning your knowledge, I'm questioning your judgement. And yes, I've seen shunts. They're CONSIDERABLY more substantial that jumper cables, and have FAR less electrical resistance and greater conductivity. Makes a difference. And the situation with needing sufficient current flow in a shunt is why they DON'T allow speeders and Hyrails out on track without an absolute block. Jumper cables are likely more conductive than THOSE are.
But hey, been fun ... drive safely everyone, have a good night. :)
I'll have to leave it there and let some signal guys tell me I'm nertz. :)
I don't know what shunts you saw, but Jumper cables are the favourite tool of kids to play with the grossing gates and an Amtrak MoW crew was using something the consistancy of telegraph wire.
When a train passes signal 100, it shunts down the track circuit.
Current continues to flow from the feed end, through the rails,
and through the axle. However, current is shunted there and
does not flow back to location 100, thus dropping out the track
relay and causing signal 100 to display STOP (or more likely
STOP & PROCEED). The current flowing in the rail is picked up inductively by a loop hanging from the lead truck. This current is coded at whatever rate location 200 is sending. The train-borne equipment demodulates the signal and displays a cab signal indication
corresponding to it.
If current is not sensed, or if the current is not modulated,
that is a NO-CODE, which on the LIRR (and most railroads)
correspondings to RESTRICTING.
By placing a shunt between the train and location 200, the
current does not reach the axle of the train and it receives
a NO-CODE.
However, all in all, the suggestion that a shunting jumper be used
in an _emergency_ to stop a train is ludicrous. I suppose if it
were a dark and foggy night and one did not have a light that
would be a last resort. But what are the chances of successfully
applying that jumper while a train is bearing down?
We've got a train, already in a block. It's shunting the two rails of course because it has axles. Someone applies a shunt across those SAME two rails in the SAME block the train is already IN, maybe a couple hundred feet ahead of the train in that same block.
Cab signal WILL drop to "Better dump this train, bub" mode? And given the currents that signalling currents in the iron usually require, a pair of battery jumper cables WOULD WORK?
If so, my most EXTREME apologies to Mike then, irrespective of the practicality of a police officer suddenly pressed into trainmaster responsibilities ... My expectations were that if a train was in a block, shunting already that block, then there wouldn't be doo wah diddy to pick up with all that signal loss just on the basis of the wheels being there. I know it'd be different with radio signalling that wasn't affected by track currents, but certainly didn't expect there to be anything to pick up on an occupied block ...
Already apologized to Mike - didn't know. Looks like I owe one to AEM7 as well. In the end though, what the cop in that situation did was obviously the correct solution nonetheless.
THANKS, guy! :)
Yes, when a train is bearing down shunting is not your best option. Driving your car on the tracks is not a good option either (he was damn lucky an M-1/3 can stop on a railroad dime). Throwing a road flare on the tracks combined with waving objects and the car's lights would have stopped the train in a far less ricky manner.
In general shunting the circut is a quick and easy way of signaling to the railroad that there is a problem. Far faster than calling dispatch and then having them fumble for the RR number than having the RR call the dispatcher then having the dispatcher call the trains. In an elergency situation where time exists it couldn't hurt.
If we're going to quarterback here, maybe I can fault the cop if he actually straddled the tracks with it, rather than placing it no closer than four feet aside a rail ... but to expect cops to be FRA certified or equivalent isn't realistic, it's obvious that time was short, and as someone who is actually FAMILIAR with such situations, once again a tip'o'the hat from Unca Selkirk to ONE SMART COP. He absolutely did about all that was REALLY practical, other than one stupid nitpick that doesn't diminish the effort in MY eyes one bit.
Tom is applying for a job as a signalman for the local railroad and is
told to meet the inspector at the signal box.
The inspector decides to give Tom a pop quiz, asking: "What would you do
if you realized that two trains were heading towards each other on the
same track?"
Tom says: "I would switch one train to another track."
"What if the lever broke?" asks the inspector.
"Then I'd run down to the tracks and use the manual lever down there",
answers Tom.
"What if that had been struck by lightning?" challenges the inspector.
"Then," Tom continued, "I'd run back up here and use the phone to call
the next signal box."
"What if the phone was busy?"
"In that case," Tom argued, "I'd run to the street level and use the
public phone near the station".
"What if that had been vandalized?"
"Oh well," said Tom, "in that case I would run into town and get my
Uncle Leo".
This puzzled the inspector, so he asked, "Why would you do that?"
"Because he's never seen a train wreck."
***
Yes, true. When I lived in Decatur GA, on assignment to the CDC I lived next to a CSX freight line. I made a point of writing down the 800 number and the Milepost Number, so if ever I saw something, I could call and tell the CSX dispatcher exactly where the emergency was.
I think the cop was thinking well, my police car and flashing lights and sirens are the best thing to notify the train operator at the second. No time to think, well if i get my jumper cables, or .... whatever.
Why don't you send a letter to the Commissioner John Gallagher, Suffolk County Police Dept., and explain to him that he is "lacking in some training skills."
I recall once where Andee posted, "You really are the consummate idiot." I admit that sometimes I am tempted to agree.
The critical here from what was reported (and I use the term "reported" VERY loosely since after all, this was the NY PEST) was time ... in the short amount of time between spotting tree and spotting train, I'd expect if the officer got out of the car to try any of those, the car would be 300 feet down the track, along with the tree ... I think the situation here is that you're all hung up on the theory without considering the practical realities of one of the situation. Sometimes things happen too fast to run down a checklist. You just do what you can while you can ...
In my OWN situation, by the time I realized I'd lost my brakes ENTIRELY, dropped my deadman and threw it into reverse, it was already too late. Time isn't always on your side, even if you KNOW what to do. :)
You brought up some interesting points about shunting, and there are emergency procedures that could be developed from what you presented. Trouble is, by the time you finished sticking both feet into your mouth no emergency service provider would ever listen to you again.
Think that was bad - I once saw a NYC traffic dept car where the hood was held together by duct tape ... I joked with the meter maid that with all the fines they get couldn't the city buy them a decent car - she said at least this one had working AC!!
Exactly! But sometimes we affectionately refer to them as "throttle monkeys"!
Stop whining.
The story accurately conveys the heroic, quick-thinking action by the cop. It portrays him in a good light, and it does not denigrate the LIRR engineer at all.
The use of "motorman" is an understandable mistake, since the LIRR MU train is similar in many respects to a subway train. Why shouldn't subway T/O's be called engineers? That's what they do, after all, even if the FRA doesn't oversee them.
Exclude the "www" and type it as is. The TrafficCam for the NYDOT (Queens Blvd. 36 St) has been out of service for a long while now.
If you want to ask a question be good enough to put some text in the message section. Otherwise don't post.
There are plenty of good photo locations, it depends on which line you want to photograph. Probably the most famous (and most photographed) is at Smith-9th St at the sound end of the southbound platform.
But getting back to my rant - I suggest to the board that any post that has only "see subject" in the message be passed over and not responded to.
It works for almost any situation.
I think the three best photo locations in the system are
1)Queensboro Plaza
2)Broadway Junction
3)61 St/Woodside
I don't think anyone's gonna tell you eactly where to stand and what direction to face at what time of day, if that's what you're looking for. IMO, half the fun of subway/rail photography is going out yourself and exploring to find the best photo locations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today's Daily News Metro Section
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/120433p-108468c.html
LInk has a couple of photos (I indicated those with the word "Photo")
Subway centennial on track
By PETE DONOHUE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Train that ran on elevated tracks in 1907 is at Transit Museum on Boerum Place. (Photo)
Chase Pinheiro, 2, and her mom Natasha Pinheiro sit in a 1936 D type triplex subway car at the Transit Museum. (Photo)
A year-long celebration of the subway's 100th birthday will start to roll next month.
The countdown to the centennial of the sprawling system, which carries millions of riders a day, will officially begin Oct. 27 with a gala at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn.
"The creation of the subway perhaps is the most critical factor in changing the face of New York City into the economic powerhouse that it is today," Metropolitan Transportation Authority Chairman Peter Kalikow said.
Kalikow has appointed former MTA Chairman Virgil Conway to head the 2004 Centennial Committee.
The culmination of the observance will come Oct. 27, 2004, with a reenactment for distinguished guests of the first subway ride from the original now-abandoned City Hall station.
A gala will be held, possibly in City Hall Park. Officials also will run cars from the Transit Authority's historic fleet during the day.
The inaugural ride in 1904 also was for public officials and invited guests - and Mayor George McClellan took control of the train for several miles. At the time, many people lived near where they worked, and were unable to get from one part of the city to another.
Reformers organized to support creation of a subway system that would spur development of decent housing in upper Manhattan and the boroughs, Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign said.
"If you look at a photograph of Harlem in 1902, or Sunnyside, Queens, in 1910, it was vacant land and farms," Russianoff said. "The subways were built, and overnight they became bedroom neighborhoods."
The first two subway lines were operated by private companies - the Interborough Rapid Transit (IRT) Co. and the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co., which in 1923 became the Brooklyn Manhattan Transit (BMT) Co.
Series of events
In 1932, the city created its own Eighth Ave. line, and the Independent (IND) Transit Railroad was born.
According to Kalikow, subway centennial events and observances will occur regularly over the next year and include:
Nostalgia train excursions four times over the year, featuring cars dating to the early decades of the system.
Special MetroCards with the centennial logo and facts about the building of the system.
A map that will compare the current and original subways and placement of centennial decals on the current subway car fleet.
An exhibit of historic model subway trains at Grand Central Terminal and musicians in stations playing tunes from the turn of the 20th century.
Boy would I enjoy being a distinguished guest!!
--Mark
Maybe they'll run the Lo-Vs on the shuttle as a consolation prize.
Because Airtrain receives no Federal or State monies, it is not subject to either Federal or State safety oversight programs.
That doesn't answer your question about why they did the investigation, but it does confirm that Airtrain isn't under their jurisdiction.
As far as I know, the agency that normally would have had investigatory authority is OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. OSHA's speciality is industrial accidents. I would doubt that its investigators have much experience with transportation accidents as those are usually within the NTSB's jurisdiction. The AirTrain accident was an industrial accident, strictly speaking, because the system was not yet in revenue service, but as a pratical matter it was a transportation accident and therefore best handled by NTSB investigators. All in all, NTSB's acceptance of jurisdiction was a wise step.
True, but technically speaking this was not a transportation accident because the system hadn't yet opened for revenue use. The NTSB could have refused to investigate, leaving it up to OSHA.
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/airtrain_rep.pdf
CG
It does appear that the train operator was given specific instructions about what to do and when to do it. He knew how to accelerate his train, and decelerate it and stop it, as evidenced by the first test run. He was then told not to run the train as fast as he did, and to stay within the ATO speed limit. He failed to do so on the second run, and he exceeded both the speed limit and the duration of the test run, gobbling up the 1500 feet (fifth of a mile, about) of safety ovverrun that he had.
Was he not paying attention?
Was he hot-dogging?
His train wasn't malfunctioning, so we can't blame it on a stuck throttle.
The remedies put into place to prevent future problems are appropriate.
He put an operator who was not used to the track on a stretch without having gone over it first, and without reviewing the safety requirements.
Running a car in the yard at 15 mph is simply not the same as running on the open track. The operator probably had no clue about how dangerous it really was to exceed the speed limit, and may not have known the reason. (Some speed limits are for train safety, others are operational.)
I disagree. He shares some blame, but your argument is not supported by the facts. You evidently did not read either the PA's report or the NTSB report. Read it.
"He put an operator who was not used to the track on a stretch without having gone over it first, and without reviewing the safety requirements. "
(Mostly) False statement. He issued very specific instructions which the operator ignored, though he may not have explained the rationale for the instructions (asnd I'd fault him for that).
The operator made one test run unsafely, and was corrected by the supervisor. Perhaps the supervisor should have taken him off the test train and run the test himself.
The operator then ignored the instructions a second time, performing even worse than the first. He died because of it.
Yes, true. If the accident had happened on the first run, I would say there's no doubt supervision was almost entirely to blame. If that's all there was to it, there would be little controversy.
But it didn't. The operator demonstrated that he knew how to control the vehicle and that the vehicle was not malfunctioning (except for the door); more than one person noted his exceeding speed limits; and a second operator was simulataneously demonstrating a correct run, albeit on the other track (but conditions were the same otherwise: ATO speed limit; 30 seconds duration; stop your train).
So why didn't the other operator also screw up?
The conversation I was referring to was the one where the operator reported that he had reached a certain track location in the first test run. From my prior reading of the PA's report, I believe that this location was sufficiently close to (or actually into) the curve where the train eventually derailed that it should have raised the concerns of the test supervisor. It didn't (and the supervisor denies knowing the location despite evidence that he did or should have) and the rest is history.
Allowing a yard engineer with experience going no faster than 15mph to operate a train at 50+ mph is probably enough evidence to convince a me of negligent supervision (and I generally have a pro-defendant bias). That they had actually intended to have a supervisor on board with the driver, but didn't only because they couldn't get the doors to work right just makes it worse.
(I thought the other train was on the same track one station further back on the line).
CG
The NTSB report clearly shows that there was a 1500 foot safety zone between the end of the run and the curve. Did you miss that?
"Allowing a yard engineer with experience going no faster than 15mph to operate a train at 50+ mph is probably enough evidence to convince a me of negligent supervision (and I generally have a pro-defendant bias). "
OK, there I agree, to a point. The supervisor shares some blame.
I didn't miss that because it doesn't say that. You really shouldn't make such bold pronouncements about who is at fault before you've read the available information carefully.
Take another look. It says that there was a 1500+ foot safety zone between where the test design called for the test run to end and the beginning of the curve.
Now look at page 7 of the PA's report. The first test run actually ended at nearly the exact point of the subsequent derailment -- i.e. 1600+ feet beyond where the test was supposed to end. According to the tapes, the trains location (in the curve) was clearly indicated to the test supervisor -- twice.
Should the supervisor -- knowing that (1) the train had been operated at speeds in excess of what was intended; (2) the train had entered a dangerous curve during the first test; and (3) the train was being operated by a yard engineer who had only operated at 15mph in the past -- taken additional steps to ensure appropriate operation during the second run? It's pretty clear to me that the operator either misunderstood the instructions given the first time around, ignored the instructions, or had an equiptment malfunction (speedometer) -- why did they assume that things would be different the second time?
CG
Was he hot-dogging?
His train wasn't malfunctioning, so we can't blame it on a stuck throttle.
The remedies put into place to prevent future problems are appropriate.
-----------------
None. He sounds just like the people who drive around me and wreck on the other side of the road, happens everyday(about a dozen times everyday). If there's a sharp turn at an offramp, why are you doing heavy braking before going into the wall instead of easing into it and accelerating, train, truck, or car can't be any different on sharp curves.
No disrespect of course...well n/m.
Doesn't sound like a safety problem in operation to me, unless the circut board fries and the train decides to do 60 until any emergency brake trips(if any).
However (and I'm not a technical type so bear with me) does this mean that the Airtrain does not have a fail-safe system of safety-trippers, like the subway, and grade timers where they want the train to slow down?
(He sounds just like the people who drive around me and wreck on the other side of the road, happens everyday.)
Exactly, anyone's mind can wander, though it is perhaps more surprising during a test than in constant operation. While the Airtrain will be ATO, do they have a backup system in case the ATO fails?
BUT a reasonably clear preference for a better operator for a rather more complicated test.
It's never clear-cut, is it?
There are some bus pics here, but the Airtrain photos are here...you will not be disappointed...
Enjoy!
Incognito
Though it IS nice to see that people are responding to my post and photos in that manner...
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
P.S., by the way, I added more photos to that album...
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
The unsecured load did not cause the accident. It caused the death of the operator, but not the original derailment.
The R32s would have looked pretty much the same as the R27/30s had not Budd won the contract. And the R38s, with LAHT steel frames are actually a step backwards.
So there are some Redbirds still to ride! And the R32 was the top of the fleet!
Seriously I get your point about "arch roof " cars.
I mean, what makes a Redbird anyway? Most of them weren't red as delivered.
And hippos have a round back. On their "roofs" they have tiny little ears, and a bit of hair.
Good question, are all "arch roof" cars included, because once you say YES to the 60' R-16 on the BMT where do you stop. Some have said the R-17 isn't a true Red Bird ... well she left the system in 1988 waring red paint and a silver roof ! So, I don't think "they" are only the ones delivered in red, but I'm not yet willing to embrace the stainless steel cars as Red Birds just because they have arch roofs.
Another selfish reason ... I would like to see Branford get one of these when they get retired, so they need to be different & unique for us to be able to sell it to our Board.
Obviously we no longer use that restrictive a definition of Redbird, and the TA seems to use it generically to mean "old non-stainless-steel-cars that sleep with the fishes."
I could argue that only IRT cars are Redbirds, but BMT cars of similar design were also painted red.
I'm using the term to mean the ongoing car contracts (I'd say R17 on the IRT, R16 on the BMT) of similar appearance, equipment and operating characteristic designed by Reginald Welch which, by his own description, were "unaesthetic people-carrying boxes."
This design was not abandoned after R27/30, but carried through in the R32 and R38, but with stainless steel.
So Redboids is where you find 'em. If you consider an R-27 a Redbird, and rode on an R-32 with your eyes closed, would you feel like you were riding a Redbird?
IMHO Redbirds are/were the railcar eqivalent to the ol' Dodge Darts and Plymouth Valiants (remember those classic clunkers?). Those cars were very unitarian in design and shared a common body style throughout their dozen or so years of production, with some minor detail changes along the way. However, 'under the hood' they were identical.
What do we call the R-32 a RDC without the hump ?
Sorry if i'm a bit curt in my answer, need my second cup of coffee.
Whacking them with the wood was MORE than enough to indicate, "PLEASE let go of the doors" ... conductor justice was a LOT more PERSONAL in my days ... hand-delivered, even to car 10. Heh.
But yeah, the mechanicals were REMARKABLY similar among the cars ('cept for those pesky federally mandated 44's and 46's - "train of da future! But can it core a apple? Yes, it can core a apple" ... and Kennebunkport's got the right idea here ... let them damned 44/46 prototypes RUST in peace out on a siding ... an historical festering boil on the buttock of transit. "Let's not do that again, thank you for riding SOAC transit ... if a federal "brane trust" designed it, RUN, no, STAMPEDE to the nearest exit. (grin)
An Almond Joy with the almonds.
So call them "Mounds." :)
Mark
Thinking about it, in such a situation, it would be right for it to be illegal, just as vaccinations are now required for all children (except unfortunately there are religious exemptions).
Mark
Anyway, I personally enjoy the current way of reproducing. :-)
Fight Darwin at your own peril.
Mark
What's more, I think there are limits to how much smarter you can make a functional human being given the nature of carbon-based brains. What I mean is, you might engineer a baby with an IQ of 250, but the kid might be severely autistic or something as a side effect.
I just want to genetically engineer transit-friendly politicians.
Mark
I also want to isolate the elusive "railfan gene" and activate it in everyone who lives near a proposed rapid transit corridor. Then thanks to science, NIMBYism will turn into a groundswell of support.
Mark
That was one weird movie, wasn't it?
"We all would be extinct within three generations because some previously unknown illness would rapidly spread if everyone's supposedly "bad" genes are weeded out. It's the variety of genes which allow a species to survive."
Case in point: Sickle cell anemia, which affects primarily Africans and African/Americans, though other races have it a little too. The gene that encodes for it provides protection against malaria. If you have one gene, you're malaria resistant (which in many places in Africa is a good thing). If you have two copies of the gene you have sickle-cell anemia.
I've met some of those. It is easier to do it in a government job, or in academia, and the few who take advantage of it do their best to wreck their colleagues' work. Substitutes for licenses and competence include money, nepotism and a good review for one's performance in the bedroom, among other things.
I believe there is one. It's called a MARRIAGE LICENSE.
(It's not just for marriages.)
It's a shame there are religious types preaching abstinence instead of encouraging safe sex. An end to abstinence education would contribute to a decrease in children born out of wedlock.
Said religious types preach abstinence, because that's their belief, not because they are trying to end children born outside of wedlock.
Posted on:9/25/03 9:36:35 AM
Due to track switch and signal problems, the (4) service is suspended from Bedford Park Blvd. to Woodlawn in both directions
Peace,
ANDEE
Jimmy
Jimmy
Was thinking of hitting the Transit Museum early, and then perhaps just hitting some lines I've never rode on, like the IND Crosstown, and the Franklin Shuttle.
I welcome all suggestions!!
--Mark
In Brooklyn:
(F) Carroll St - Ditmas Av
(J) Alabama Av - Fulton St
(L) Myrtle Av - Livonia Av
(M) 36 St - Ft Hamilton Pkwy
(N) 59 St - New Utrecht Av
< Q > [Canal St-]DeKalb Av - Brighton Beach
(R) 59 St - Bay Ridge Av
(S) entire line
(W) [Canal St-]Pacific St - Stillwell Av
(3) Utica Av - New Lots Av; take B15 (towards JFK/General Mail Facility) to Linden Blvd get off at Livonia Yard underpass
In Queens:
(A) Rockaway Blvd-Beach 67 St
(E) [5 Av-]23 St/Ely - Jamaica Center
(F) [Lexington Av-]Roosevelt Island - Roosevelt Av
(M) Metropolitan Av - Wyckoff Av
(S) Broad Channel - Rockaway Pk
(S)(S) Rockaway Blvd - Howard Beach (rare, middays only)
(7) Willets Pt - Junction Blvd
< 7 > Hunterspoint Av - Main St
In Manhattan:
(1)(9) Chambers St - Chambers St [via South Ferry Loop]
(3) 148 St - Chambers St
(4)(5) Brooklyn Bridge - 125 St
(S) Times Sq - Grand Central
See also: http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/subwaytour.html
If you want to check out yards:
207th Street Yard: visible from 207 and 215 St stations on the (1)(9)
239th Street Yard: visible from A)241 St, exit and walk east; B)238 St, exit and walk about 2-3 blocks east and 1-2 blocks north
240th Street Yard: visible from passing (1)(9) trains between 238 and 242 St stations
36th-38th Street Yard: I think the bridge is still closed for construction, so it is not viewable at this time.
Canarsie Yard: visible from the east-facing passageway of the Rockaway Parkway station on the (L) line
Concourse Yard: between 200 and 205 Sts west of Jerome Ave; visible from the (4) at Bedford Pk Blvd
Corona Yard: visible from the boardwalk between Roosevelt Ave and Flushing Meadows Corona Park, get off at Willets Pt Shea Stadium (7)
E 180 St Yard: E 180 St on the (2)(5)
Unionport Yard: between E 180 and Morris Pk on the (5)
ENY Yard: Broadway Junction on the (J)(L)(Z)
Fresh Pond Yard: passing (M) between Fresh Pond Rd and Metropolitan Av
Jamaica Yard: get off at Union Turnpike (E)(F) station. Find 78 Cres (I think), walk north down the hill, should be an open field and a highway on the right, and an office building on the left. Cross the street and walk through the field, to the highway. Walk down next to the highway until the sidewalk ends, then watch for traffic, and then go to your RIGHT [going left will put you on the highway]. Keep walking, make your first left, should be after a parking lot. Keep walking along the left side of the street - should be 90* parking. A few blocks down you will see the yard. From there if you're good with the Queens Bus Map you can find the Q44 to Main St.
To be continued...
Lenox Yard: visible from 148 St/Lenox Terminal on the (3)
Livonia Yard: On Linden Blvd; take B15 or B20 bus and get off at the underpass, you can't miss it.
Pitkin Yard: A few blocks from Livonia Yard. Across the street from where the B13/B14/B15/B20 buses turn off Linden Blvd; diagonally across the street from the Linden Multiplex theater. It is hidden under an apartment complex. You can see one track from Linden Blvd, for the rest you have to walk around to the other side. It's a little difficult to see. You could try walking up the parking ramps, but I don't neccessarily recommend doing so.
Rockaway Park Yard: visible from Beach 116 St-Rockaway Park station on the < A >(S), also from the street - exit and walk to your right, make a right on the next block, and walk on the right side of the street - from there you can see anything too far from the platform.
Westchester Yard: Between Westchester Sq and Middletown Rd stations on the (6). I haven't yet walked this yard from the ground so I don't know where the best viewpoint is. I do know that you can see it from the ground, I just don't know from where.
Scrapyards: Well I only know of 2 scrapyards, neither of which seem to have much in them. They are along 2nd Ave in Brooklyn (I think) between 36 and 45 Sts.
LIRR Flatbush Yard: bordered by Atlantic Av and Pacific St, somewhere between Flatbush and Franklin Avs. Not far from Atlantic/Pacific station on the (M)(N)(Q)< Q >(R)(W)(2)(3)(4)< 5 > (walk east along Atlantic from there) or 7th Avenue (Q)< Q > (walk north from there).
LIRR Jamaica Yard: near Jamaica Center station on the (E)(J)(Z). Exit there and walk south under the LIRR overpass, then make a right (turn west) and walk down the street next to the trestle, eventually the tracks descend into part of the yard. The rest can be seen by walking to the end of these tracks, then make a right when you reach the Van Wyck Expwy, walk under the tracks again, and make a right, then walk back to Sutphin Blvd station.
LIRR/Amtrak/NJT Sunnyside Yard: All over western Queens. Can be seen many times between Hunterspoint Ave and 33rd-Rawson St on the (7). The big action is at A)Hunterspoint Ave [exit and walk over the LIRR tracks] and B)between Queensboro Plaza and 33 St.
LIRR [Unknown Name] Yard: It's very hard to find, and I often get lost, but if you can find the Pulaski Bridge, there is a pedestrian walkway on the north side, from which you can look down onto a LIRR Bilevel/Diesel storage yard. If you can make your way to the street below, there are several grade crossings and if you read the timetable at Hunterspoint Ave station [basically from about 3 to 7 PM] you can see when there will be trains leaving this yard and crossing the street, and the crossing gates will go down. There are often diesels just lying around on the tracks between the two street crossings.
Nearest stations are 23/Ely/Court Sq on the (E)(G)(V) and Hunterspoint Ave on the (7)
I hope you find this information somewhat useful.
Long Island City yard. There is a platform used by a few revenue trains per day. Unless it's been moved in the past year, the platform is pretty much in the middle of the yard, meaning that you get to walk through much of the yard to enter or exit. Pretty cool, and definitely a rare opportunity.
Easiest access is from Vernon-Jackson on the 7.
Whoops, that's Sutphin Blvd, not Jamaica Center.
Take C local at Jay or Hoyt-Schermehorn to Franklin Ave, get off at first car. Go upstairs and take the shuttle to Propsect Park.
At Prospect Park, go upstairs and over and take a R40 train, they are all < Q > express trains, take that to Sheepshead Bay.
Get off, use Voorhees cross-under and take < Q > over the Manhattan Bridge to 34th st.
If you haven't hit PATH in awhile, take the JSQ train, then change for Newark. You must put in $1.50 cash fare each way. If you want to avoid paying another $1.50, just get off at Journal Square and go back. Take PATH to 14th st, change for F or V train to 42nd st then take #7 train to Willets Pt for Corona Yard.
Some ideas
John
It would be more accurate to say that the original IRT line turns 100 next year. Not much else does.
Some south Bklyn lines have a history much earlier than the el you mentioned.
The IRT turns 100. However, it was the "birthdate" of what we know was today's NYCSubway. So YES the subway is 100 years old.
On the other hand, I like to define "subway" as "not outdoors", in which case it could be argued that the Franklin shuttle (and its old extensions down the Brighton line) may not have a subway component.
Mark
How about at least a plaque on Greenwich Street for old Colonel Harvey?
I wonder if pneumatic tube trains would have worked on a large scale, with close headways and branching routes. I know the concept has been proposed several times since Beech tried it, but mostly for intercity trains, not urban transit.
Weird thing is, there is no mention of the S.A.S. in the diagrams.
Newer by about a dozen years.
As others noted, subways are always dated from the opening of their first line, not their last. Imagine where Boston would be placed if they could not lay the claim to the oldest subway in the country based on their Green Line…??
They were the 49th and 50th states.
Peace,
ANDEE
Uh, you mean this isn't a message board about Subway sandwiches? Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!! :P
--Mark
: )
Mark
We greatly appreciate your interest in our mass transit system. As you may
already know, MTA New York City Transit is bolstering our fleet with orders for
over 200 new subway cars, in addition to the 1,080 new cars already ordered in
1997. The new millennium R-142 subway cars were initially introduced on the
Nos. 2 and 6 lines. We are also starting to operate new R142 cars on the No. 5
line, with two trains already in service. The fleet of 378 subway trains (R62A,
R33, R29, R28, and R26 type equipment) in service on the No. 5 line will
gradually be converted over the next year to two years, as new cars are
delivered. The No. 6 line will have all R142A cars, and the R143 cars will be
run on the L line. The R160 contract will be awarded this year.
As these lines receive new cars, we are transferring the R62A cars from these
lines to the No. 7 line. These R62A cars were built approximately 15 years ago,
of which, there are currently two R62A trains operating on the No.7 line. In
addition, the entire No. 7 line will be converted to R62A cars over the next
year to two years, as new cars are delivered. The outdated R32, R40 and R42
cars will be retired by 2010, and the R46 cars will be retired in 2015. We
expect that all “Redbird” subway cars, including those on the No. 7 line, will
be scrapped by the end of 2003, except for eighty cars that will be kept for
work equipment use. However, the retirement of all of NYC Transit’s “Redbird”
subway cars is still dependent upon the final delivery schedule for our orders
for 1,080 new cars. Rest assured that once we begin receiving these new subway
cars they will be place on the designated lines, including the No. 7 line
accordingly. Therefore, we have referred your e-mail to supervision in our
Division of Rapid Transit Operations for review . We also encourage you to log
onto our website, www.mta.info, to get more information about these changes.
If you have any further transit-related concerns, suggestions or comments, you
may call Customer Services at (718) 330-3322, from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.,
Monday through Friday, or write to Customer Services, 370 Jay Street, Room 702,
Brooklyn, NY 11201.
We hope this information is helpful and thank you for having taken the time to
contact us.
It's a whole lot better than many Subtalk posts. When you can consistently write posts as well-informed as that letter, standardized or not, then you can sneer at them.
Uhmm, I am not a part of the MTA, so I would not write a letter like that letter written by the MTA. Second of all, I was just stating a fact that it is a canned response, I was not snearing at anyone, was there anywhere in my post that I said the info wasn't useful, or that it was bad?
Maybe you should take your own advice. And by the way, I didn't know we had to have insider information to ba able to post at SubTalk.
Apologies then. "Canned" evokes something bad, but you are correct, I assumed something not directly in evidence. You didn't say the letter was bad.
It did answer his question.
And yes, my posts are not always as good or carefully written as MTA's letters.
Then again, at least that email is more up-to-date than the announcements on 2 trains.
Even if it is out of date, your criticism is partly off point. The plan described is accurate, and the TA truly does not know exactly when the last Redbird will be in service.
The email states accurately the prerequisite for retiring them.
In the drawer full of letters from MTA, I've never gotten an out of date reply. But my letters were almost always read and signed by management. Had I taken exception to anything in them,I would have known exactly whom to call.
It's possible somebody took an old letter and didn't update it. We're not told who actually wrote the email.
What did your letter specifically say? Is there a question you had that they did not answer?
Read the letter they gave you again carefully, and you'll see.
In a plan proposed in 1939, engineers planned to connect the 2nd av subway to Court St, among many other extensions. It's also interesting to note that:
1. The NYW&B (hope I got that right) would have connected to the 6 line.
2. Astoria, Liberty and Broadway (from Myrtle to across the Manh bridge) els would have been replaced.
3. The broadway line would have been extended (through Central Park, curiously) to morningside heights.
There are other things too. If anyone's interested, I'll write more of the expansion.
The IND already enters Central Park in two places and exits the park at 63rd Street; the IRT Seventh Av line enters the park at about 103 Street and exits on Lenox Av.
Why not a station in the park instead of only in the periphery?
Yeah! Why doesn't the IRT connect to the IND (103rd Central Park West). I know it would be a very important connection.
N Bwy
Yeah, but what kind of havoc would be created building it? Cut & cover? Yikes.
The Transit Museum has also sold a collection of old maps, including one of the 1939 plan.
I'm assuming that the 1939 plan you refer to was just a continuation of that concept.
I like the idea of a stop or two in the park. It sure would have been convenient. Otherwise, we are talking about a non-stop run under the park between 57 St and 110 St, at a minimum.
The map is simply a map: It doesn't go into specifics about exactly where the lines are to run. To picture it, try looking at a modern subway map, and using the directions provided.
1. 2nd av subway:
The map illustrates this line Coming off of the Fulton line at Court St., and crossing the E. River just south of the Clark St (2/3) tunnel. Once in Manhattan, it swings northward immediately all the way up to the bronx. It runs just west of the 3rd av el up to about the point where the Concourse line enters bronx (So, if the Concourse continued easterly, instead of swinging north, the 2nd av line turns where the concourse would bisect the 3rd av el). It runs east past the Pelham line, and follows the shoreline, crossing all 3 inlets. After that, it swings sort of southeast, and ends at Harding Av.
2. Broadway Extension:
Called the morningside av line, it runs just east of CPW until the end of the park, then runs between CPW and Broadway IRT. Line ends at W145th st. (One has to wonder: what are they thinking?)
3. Lennox line:
Extended into the Bronx, connecting to Jerome. Crosses the river just north of Concourse line.
4. Westchester and Boston Line:
Instead of connecting to the WPR line at E180th, it allows a transfer there but continues south to meet the Pelham line, just south of whitlock av.
5. Long Island City Horace Harding Boulevard Line:
Instead of connecting the Broadway line to Queens Boulevard, this line branches north, Just west of the Astoria El, which is illustrated as a joint operation el, along with the Flushing line. The line runs alongside the el and then turns east, right where the el ends. It's hard to describe exactly where this line runs, but it ends waaay out in the boondocks of queens, at Marathon Pkwy. Presumeably, it runs underneath what is today the Horace Harding Expwy (The LIE, I think).
It seems that this line would replace the Astoria el, and all Broadway service would go to either this line or the flushing line.
6. Flushing extensions:
Contiunes north. Branches North east into the College Point Line and the Bayside Line. Bayside line runs east after the split, to Bell Blvd. College Point line runs north, and then back toward manhattan to College Pt. Causeway.
7. Hillside Line extension:
Extended to Little Neck Road.
8. "63rd st tunnel":
Where the local tracks on Queens Blvd turn south to meet back with the express tracks at Queens Plaza, a tunnel would branch off to the west, Crossing Welfare Island on its northern Part. Doesn't say if this line connects to 2nd av, but it follows a 63rd tunnel style routing running south under Central Park and connecting to the 6th av line in the same manner.
9. Van Wyck Blvd Line:
See how the E branches off of the QB line? Pretend it keeps going in the same direction instead of running under Archer Ave. It runs all the way to Rockaway Blvd. (The street, not the station)
10. World's Fair Line:
Don't think this needs explaining.....
11. Fulton St Extension:
From Euclid av, where 76th street "is" today. Extended to 229th st.
12. Rockaway Line:
Connects to Fulton Line ext, then along LIRR Rock ROW to Queens Blvd., Likely where the Bellmouths exist today.
13. Houston St Subway:
Where the F turns south after 2nd av this line would have continued east, across the river, then to S4th st in Williamsburg. Runs just north of the Broadway Line until the Myrtle Av junction. Continued as part of the Utica Av line.
14. Worth St line:
After 8th av local tracks diverge from the expresses, this line would then turn off before Hudson Terminal, running under Worth st, then across the river and meet the Houston Line at s4th street.
15. Utica Av line:
From The previously described Houston St line, it runs under Utica, Parallel to the Nostrand Line(2/5). Runs under Flatbush Av to Floyd Bennett Field.
16. Nostrand Av ext:
Extended to Voorhies av.
17. Ft. Hamilton Pkwy Line:
Off of the Crostown line at Church av. Running south to 86th st. Crosstown also connected to Culver.
18. Brooklyn-Staten Island Line:
West off of the Ft. Hamilton line just south of the Sea Beach line. Once in Staten Island, it runs south to Grant St., AND north to 'westervelt' Ave.
As 2 interesting sidenotes:
-Although 2nd ave EL is gone, the Flushing's crossing on the Queensboro Bridge remains, allowing a transfer to 2nd av subway.
-The Nassau Loop has disappeared, but nothing seems to have replaced it on the manhattan bridge.
Hope you guys find this useful.
It's interesting to see how priorities shifted from year to year. There were apparently some huge fights over that in the City Council and elsewhere.
The good thing about going through the microfilm, and it has happened to me a lot, is that you can also stumble across something aside from the articles that you're looking for that you never expected to find. Case in point: going through the Eagle from January 1913 looking for articles on the Dual Contract public hearings (which appear to have been the nastiest hearings in history), I found full-page ads that the BRT took out seeking support for the version of the Crosstown line that were under consideration at that point. You wouldn't find that in an index, and maybe not in a computer system, either.
A well-designed computer system could retrieve an article for you as well as show you titles of related articles. Some websites do this. Look at the bottom of each New York Times on-line article. Also, medical research sites do this. Have you ever been to Medline?
It's not just Humanities and Social Sciences, it's also available at Mid-Manhattan (useful on Mondays), Donnell (53/6), Science, Industry and Business (34/Madison), Fordham and St. George.
I think ProQuest subscriptions are available to individuals, but they're not cheap. (Anybody have an exact figure?)
I can imagine that the subscriptions are ridiculously expensive, which is why NYPL only offers the service at a few branches, as opposed to all branches, or to cardholders at home.
I emailed the NYPL staff about a year ago, asking whether any plans were in the works to expand ProQuest access to other branches or even to library card holders at home. I was informed that it was unlikely, due to cost, but that the possibility had not been ruled out entirely. So if you want this feature, fire off an email and be counted! (I don't know if pigs are counted. I realize that you're not a pig after all, but you'll have to make that clear in your email.)
He would only need one minute if he used the computer instead.
It's when you want to go through the other papers' microfilms that you have to go day by day, page by page. If you have the time, it's actually a lot of fun, and you learn a lot beyond what you're looking for.
story in Wednesday Guardian
Having said that, there is clearly the need to find some better management for Network Rail from somewhere. I advocate Germany or Holland myself. The talent doesn't seem to exist in the UK.
The maceration of the railways in the 1960s would never have happened had we been as willing to quadruple BR's funding then as we are now it is run by private sector criminals.
British Rail had its own problems. Although, it is true that BR's problems were due mostly to its structure, and not management...
AEM7
The regional structure was a basically good idea, if appallingly implemented. At least the Southern and Western regions made some sort of coherent sense (until everything North of Banbury got shoved into the LMR). Having Intercity Cross-Country as an independent entity was a good plan too, but I have serious reservations about the service patterns of that company and its successors (notably the fact that it doesn't serve two of the ten largest provincial cities in Great Britain).
Are you clueless? Regions might have been a good idea, the business sectors were a better idea, but investment cycles were still done on a year-by-year basis as part of the budget. That's dumb. Forward-funding is a good idea, to give the RR some independence from politics, even if it's poorly implemented in Massachusetts.
Agreed.
There were about 3 guys sitting in front of about 30 camera monitors and computer screens. Impressive but i wasn't blown away by the scale and there really wasn't much over-the-top tech stuff. It was pretty quiet and i would have liked to seen it during rush hour. I think more than anything, the guys in there were surprised that I was genuinely interested in what they did. They probably don't get that everyday. That was the best part of the night.
The signal at the top of each hill was already yellow, and by the time you got the top and you saw the signal at the bottom waiting for you, it was already green, but we crawled anyway. I noticed also those green "R" signs telling you to resume speed, but we were REALLY slow without any signal enforcement. No workers on the track either. No yellow and green dots or anything.
I know that on the Manhattan Bridge, going down the driver stays at around 20 and controls the speed, but this guy wasn't controlling the speed because there was very little speed to control! We were at 5 or 10 in the spots that I said were a crawl. This stretch of track is a lot of fun but I don't want to go out there one more time if the trip is now like the way this one was. I hope something exceptional happened to my train and that isn't typical.
Obvously, I want to get to my destination expeditiously. But the scenery is really pretty out there, so I don't mind if the train slows down and lets me enjoy the view.
Aside from that, I generally regard any train that goes slower than the posted speed limit for any reason other than track obstruction/construction or slow order, to be either a "scaredy cat", a rookie, or the start of a new pick.
Two common examples: Chauncey to Halsey on the J and Liberty to Van Siclen on the C - both rather high speed runs (for a B division local train), yet occasionally I get a T/O that will just coast as soon as the train starts moving. Now whatever REASON they're scared may be legitimate, like maybe a TSS is breathing down their neck and they're nervous they'll overshoot, so to compensate they'll go slower - but they're scared nonetheless.
The slow guy was operating correctly.
Why on earth are those timers there? Who ever heard of a timer at the end of an upgrade? And even if there's a good reason for them, why one-shot and not two-shot? I assume those signals date from the 50's, if not later, so it's not like there was no such thing as a two-shot yet.
--Mark
Two-shot red lights seem to me to be preferable in every case. What's the justification for one-shot red lights?
Maybe this is the same type of thing.
P.S. --> Is Buhre, Buure (rhymes with Pure, like the R-142A announcements) or Buh-REE, like the C/R's of the Redbirds and R-62A's used to do.
Maybe Larry Seabrook or the NYCDOT can have a say in this in 2004.........
But how do you say DESBROSSES or LAIGHT?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, (1) South Ferry (9) has to get some credit in that pronunciation.
As for "Nereid," I think it is "NEE-ree-ed"
My tough one is "Utrecht," which I understand to be "YOO-trekt" and not "YOO-tretshd" as an old girlfriend of mine once said.
And one last one: "MOSHOLU" -- is it "MOSH-o-loo" or "Muh-SHOO-luh?"
Transit relevance: All are subway stations except for the first set.
I know $20 million is nothing in terms of a new reail line's costs, but it could at least pay for the obligatory preliminary study that would take five years to tell us that the buses are crowded.
: )
Mark
I tried to find an R46 on this site, but I couldn't
--Mark
Link here
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr253468123sep25,0,817531.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
PA press release
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=421
Was going to model this route in BVE at some point, ut i'll definately need a cab video first, which is why i have it.
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/mfltrack.zip
Sean@Temple
Secrets Beneath the Streets: Subway
Mark
Manhattan 1990: 2,071,079 2000: 2,089,922
Not much of a gain compared what I would have expected. I guess the loss of "pink collar" jobs early in the decade nearly matched the gain in professional jobs later on.
Brooklyn 1990: 674,794 2000: 667,477
Disappointment there.
Queens: 1990: 585,653 2000: 596,549
Loss of airline jobs since then won't help.
Bronx: 1990: 293,681 2000: 280,939
Staten Island: 1990: 101,629 2000: 120,243
A number of New York's suburban counties also had fewer people working in them in 2000, including Nassau and Westchester. Those futher out grew modestly. All this is expecially surprising given welfare reform, a much higher establishment-based job count in 2000 than in 1990, and a smaller undercount (and therefore higher population) in the city in 2000 than in 1990.
It does?
It does?)
Yes, transit usage has always correlated with the number of people working in Manhattan, which only went up slightly while transit usage went up a lot. Of course, the data put out businesses says that employment went up a lot too.
On the data side, this is either some quirk or it means lots of additional people (and I mean lots) are holding more than one job. On the transit side, it may mean that the subway is attracting more non-work trips than even I had assumed.
That might no longer be the case. The Fun Pass made it particularly easy for those who didn't commute every day to make lots of off-peak trips in a day, but now the Fun Pass is priced out of reach for that market.
On the other hand, the monthly is now an incredible bargain, with the break-even point down to 42 rides a month. Before May, a monthly was more of a gamble if you just commuted to work 5 days a week and didn't do much else, while a weekly cost more than a PPR. Now those commuters have to be silly not to buy a monthly. And once you have a monthly, you decide you might as well do extra jaunts because they're free. My wife now has a monthly, and it certainly encourages her to take extra off-peak rides she would have thought twice about previously.
Metro: Isabel Shutdown Justified
Updated: Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 - 5:01 PM EDT.
By BRIAN WESTLEY
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Metro officials are standing by last week's decision to close the entire transit system in anticipation of Hurricane Isabel - an unprecedented step that virtually shut down the nation's capital, including the federal government.
"None of us is in possession of a crystal ball," Metro Board chairman Jim Graham said Thursday. "But based on the best information we had, we made the best decision we could."
Under partly cloudy skies, buses were pulled off the roads and trains were halted at 11 a.m. on Sept. 18 out of fears that winds exceeding 40 mph could blow passengers off their feet and in front of buses or onto the tracks.
Metro's decision had a domino effect across the region, prompting government and private offices to close, giving hundreds of thousands of people a day off of work, and leaving those who rely on public transportation out of luck.
At a special meeting Thursday to explain the move, Metro CEO Richard White told board members a decision was made nearly a day in advance of the storm's arrival to give passengers enough time to make alternative plans. With Isabel still spinning off the coast of North Carolina, White said he huddled together for a conference call with dozens of state and local leaders, meteorologists and even transit officials with the Miami-Dade Transit agency, who have experience with hurricanes.
"We didn't know what was going to happen on Thursday in terms of where the severity (of the storm) was going to be," White said.
But based on a forecast by the National Weather Service that indicated strong storm winds could reach the Washington area by 4 p.m., White said it became clear that Metro needed to shut down by 11 a.m. to make sure passengers had enough time to reach their final destination before the storm hit.
"There was an overwhelming consensus," White said, adding that many officials believed it would be best to shut the system down early rather than too late. He said officials first considered allowing rail service to continue below ground, but scrapped that idea after deciding that it could be too confusing.
Board members overwhelmingly applauded the move.
"I can't help but think of what would this meeting would have been like had the weather predictions proven accurate or even more dire than what they were," said Graham, who is also a D.C. councilman. "How many potential people being blown onto tracks? And how many upturned buses?"
Fifty-three percent of the 103-mile rail system is either at surface level or elevated. There are about 340 bus routes, with a fleet of more than 1,400.
Lisa Farbstein, a Metro spokeswoman, said it was unclear how much money Metro lost by shutting down early.
Ridership during the 5.5 hours the subway was open Sept. 18 totaled 66,139, or about 25 percent of passenger levels during those hours one week earlier. Ridership was similarly light Sept. 19, when the subway reopened at 8 a.m.
(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
I think some people are failing to even recognize WMATA's motives for shutting the system down.
That is exactly what Metro was afraid of.
Out of curiosity, how long were you without power?
I ask once again: if nobody had anywhere to go, then why weren't the roads officially closed as well? If it's unsafe to be riding a train, then it's certainly unsafe to be driving a car.
As for closing the roads I DON't know, WMATA isn't in charge of the roads, why don't you call DC government, the State of Maryland and the Commonwealth of Virginia's Department of Transportations and find a answer if you want to know. Besides the fact that it is almost impossible to enforce and do (closing all the roads). Plus that it will hinder FIRE/EMS/UTILITY WORKERS from doing their jobs if all the roads were barricaded up not to mention the man power to do so, and 2 states and the district ordering that to happen. You're thinking hypatheticals here. The fact is, the only peole still causing an uproar about it on this board are people who don't even use the metro. I said it before, however as someone who lives in the area, I didn't mind one bit that that metro was closed, for the very fact that I had no where to go, because there was no where to go.
That's right, buses. (The city in question has no subway system.) Because when the weather is nasty, it's better to have a few professional drivers on the road than to have lots and lots of individual amateurs who may not be expert in driving in snow (even though snow is no stranger to this city, so drivers generally have some idea of what do to). It's safer for those individuals to pack onto buses, and it's safer for anyone who might need emergency care, since emergency vehicles are less likely to be blocked by accidents.
Of course, if this were Washington, the roads would have been kept open, but the buses would have stopped running. Would that have forced everyone to stay home? No, some people still had places they needed to go. Others were away from home at the time, and they would have driven home. Well, except for those who didn't have cars, or who had cars but who left them at home (since they rode the bus in in the morning, perhaps specifically to avoid driving in the inclement weather), who would have been stranded.
And the next time it snowed, the roads would be even more crowded than usual, since even those who would normally take the bus would remember having been stranded and would drive instead.
Which approach makes more sense, to increase traffic volumes in bad weather or to decrease traffic volumes in bad weather? That's what this boils down to.
So i'm done with this debate.
Phil Hom
Stafford VA
Koi
The history of this transfer is a little complicated. When BMT service on the Brooklyn Bridge ended on March 5, 1944 free transfers were issued at Bridge-Jay Streets Station to/from BMT streetcars running over the bridge to Park Row. The transfer privedge to the IND subway at Jay Street may have been instituted at this time. The transfer was issued to exiting passengers at Bridge Street and stated that it was good on IND trains only to Bway-Nassau St but it was impossible to enforce this prohibition. Tranfers from the IND were issued to exiting passengers at Jay Street and stated that they were good on Myrtle Avenue trains only as far as Sumner Avenue, again this could not be enforced.
Effective on January 1, 1957 some changes were made to this procedure. Transfers from the BMT to the IND were issued only at stations from Sumner Avenue through Navy Street to passengers purchasing a token and requesting a transfer at that time. During midnight hours when most of the token booths were closed the transfers were still issued at Bridge Street were the agent was on duty 24/7. The Bway-Nassau prohibiton continued though.
The IND to BMT transfer was issued on at Broadway-Nassau Street to a fare paying passenger requesting it. I believe that only one token booth did this and that was the current one at the north end of the uptown platfrom on the IRT Lexington Avenue Line. When the el was closed south of Broadway in October 1969 the transfer was carried over to the B-54 Myrtle Avenue bus.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Also, it was silly they kept that provision once the fare went to 10 cents and inter-divisional free transfers became more common.
Yes; I did that once in 1968.
I thought the Jay St. transfer was from the end of the Myrtle Ave. El, related but different.
Do we know how heavily used this x-fer was?
I can see why not, given that the Myrtle El had been gone for 10 years. Probably most people had found out by then.
Can someone please explain what the occasional reference to "mystical Chix" refers to? What are they? If the topic is too far off topic, please e-mail me the answer. thanks.
I did answer your post, but my response was mired in the other responses that were basically along the lines of "Ask Peter Rosa," even though Mr. Rosa wasn't the one that coined the term.
It either got deleted or maybe just got mired all the way down.
I've coined enough terms of my own that I don't need to claim this one.
Even if one doesn't apply the "mystical" part, I sort of like the word "chix" as an expression for young women.
Necrocrat
Erythrornithophile
AND MY ALL TIME FAVORITE:
Eclinator
Definitions please.
Anyway:
Necrocrat:Person who advocates rule by the dead, including people against rebuilding the World Trade Center for the living. Does NOT include people who don't want it rebuilt because they're afraid of more attacks, those are panophobes (fear of all).
Erythrornithophile: Lover of Birds that are Red
Eclinator: Mechanically moving ramp, such as that found at the Costco store in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
Gotcha.
Now I can say that I hate both necrocrats and panophobes.
I find myself applauding this post.
Mystical Chicks*** Equals:
If it's too small use this link for the larger version:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p80564a22ea795e37b17ffb47e70ab65e/fbc6ee3e.jpg.orig.jpg
***I believe this is only a "subtalk" phenomena. QTrain brought his like of "mystical chix" about a year ago, and his description of "mystical chix" pecame a SubTalk classic (like 76th St, "PROFF", etc.
:)
Don't forget the charcoal grey fiberglas benches!
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
Say Wayne, you mentioned in your now-classic post of a few years ago that "people were fainting and passing out."
wayne
Hmmm, that would be the excuse I need to get to London, something I've been thinking about doing for at least the past 20 years. And you can get $200 round trips JFK-LHR in the off-season.
Dunno, but I'm sure it's not cheap. What with $200 round trips being available, a charter probably wouldn't make economic sense even if you had enough people to fill a 767.
I aint getting on no plane, Hannibal!
Simon
Swindon UK
And there are G.O.s on Sundays of course (which aren't called G.O.s, but you know what I mean).
You seem to have ended up with the opposite academic schedule to me - for me it's Mondays and Thursdays that are bloody impossible! Thank gox for the sportsmen giving everyone a nice relaxing Wednesday though...
"Additional features include lighted arrows indicating which side the doors will open"
Is this really necessary? Do they think NYers are that dumb? Recently on the 7 I saw 2 people standing on the wrong side waiting for the doors to open, but NYers on the whole aren't that bad, I would like to think.
The peopple who actually *need* to be told which side the doors are open are blind people, for whom a voice announcement would be some use. The rest of us can see that the doors are open!
I guess when trains are real crowded and someone from out of town is trying to get to the door for their station, it helps to have the arrow tell them which way to go. Of course, most New Yorkers know the layout of hundreds of stations perfectly, because they see them all the time. But for the infrequent users, I guess it's useful. It's probably expensive too.
Koi
I like to keep my insults with some scientific basis.
Maybe they can make the door opening indicator light a strobe instead of an arrow too, that'll work well.
That's for people who also need instructions on how to use toilet paper!
WASHINGTON D.C. (Reuters) - Officials at the Centers for Disease Control in
Atlanta confirmed that conservative commentator Ann Coulter has been
admitted to the Bethesda Naval Hospital.
Coulter, 47, is said to be suffering from rabies. One emergency room worker
was bitten during Coulter's admission and is being treated. Coulter was
described as "foaming at the mouth" and said to be "hurling abuse".
"At first we thought it was Tourette's, then we saw the foam," said one ER
worker who declined to give his name.
CDC officials were called in after tests indicated that Coulter might have
had the condition for an extended period of time, perhaps years. According
to the CDC, most cases of human rabies kill their victims within several
weeks, and unless caught immediately, the disease is fatal. The CDC is
concerned that the Coulter strain could be a recent mutation with a far
greater risk of infectiousness.
Coulter was placed in restraints and a face mask, in an effort to prevent
her attacks on those attempting to treat her.
Are you so bored and unoccupied that you'd think of a dumb post like this?
Everybody can see where the doors open when they open -- except the blind. Flashing an arrow isn't going to be much help to the blind.
From now on I'll wait for you to post and start a thread, because yours are the only ones worthwhile I guess.
I wasn't insinuating New Yorkers were dumb, but as I couldn't come up with any other reason myself, I was looking for suggestions as why such a feature was needed. I thought it was a rather odd, and pointless feature.
Besides, virtually all transit system give you information on which side doors will open. In Chicago, for instance, the announcements go "XYZ-station is next. Doors will open on the left a XYZ-station". Berlin's subway system adds "Exit at the righ" for stations with side platforms rather than the standard center platform (when no extra announcement is made). Berlin's and Hamburg's suburban rail systems announce "Exit at right/left" 3 seconds before the train comes to a complete stop. In addition, the LEDs show ">> XYZ-station >>" for side platforms and "<< XYZ-station <<" for center platforms. Even conducters in Washington D.C. would take the extra time to announce on which side the doors will open. Nothing like leaning against a door that'll open at the next station (ouch)
This feature is designed for those dumb New Yorkrs that also hold coversations with three of their friends in the middle of the sidewalk in Midtown.
I find these people to be mostly tourists.
Peace,
ANDEE
The famous word with the TA is "inattentive". I've seen more C/Rs prone to open on the wrong side who were talking with a friend/other passenger , on the cellphone, sleeping when the train stops in the station, among a few of the causes. Hell, I almost had one such incident because Control Center refused to take "I'll respond to you when the train stops" for an answer when looking for lost property. I was on the right side but almost put the key in with the train still moving, because I was paying more attention to their ranting than to what I was doing. My T/O being a former TSS I was glad I caught myself on that one. ;) But stupid? Nah, I don't think stupidity's the major part of the problem there though.
This is how I would want things to run(although I would rather see the 3rd Avenue line built, followed by the Lafayette Avenue line, but this seems easier since much of this is already built)
125th Street/2nd Avenue(NEW STATION) (4)(5)(6) (at Lexington Av)
138th Street/Alexander Avenue(NEW STATION)(6)(at 3 Av)
149th Street/Grand Concourse (2)(4)(5)
161st Street-Grand Concourse(NEW STATION)(4)(C)(D) (at River Av)
167th Street
170th Street
174th-175th Streets
Tremont Avenue(177th Street)
182nd-183rd Streets
Fordham Road
Kingsbridge Road
Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street
204th Street(NEW STATION)
Mosholu Parkway(NEW STATION) (4)(at Jerome Av)
Free connections(in system) will be made at 125 St, 138 St, 161 St, and Mosholu Parkway
SAS trains could run express and stop at 161st Street/Concourse, which will be designed to feed into Concourse locals and expresses.
This way the SAS will not have to go 125 St crosstown
People will go to Tremont Avenue/177th Street and transfer between D express trains and C/T trains(T could be local or express, splitting up after 167)
Jailhouse Doc mentioned issues with an earthquake fault at Broadway/125. Not likely to affect a merge into the D train.
The first continues north to Fordham University via a Third Avenue Subway.
The second bends to the west following 125th Street to the Hudson River.
Elias
Since a great many of us are Members of the Tribe, I thought I would share this Rosh HaShanah greeting I received several years ago from an old friend. It's off-topic in the extreme, but it is funny, even for those not of our faith. I cleaned it up a bit, as it must've been forwarded around the earth several times and looked a bit choppy. Enjoy.
On Rosh Hashanah, there is a ceremony called Tashlich. Jews traditionally go to the ocean (or a stream or river), pray, and then throw bread crumbs onto the water, for the fish can symbolically eat their sins. Some people have been known to ask what kind of bread crumbs they should throw:
For ordinary sins..............White Bread
For exotic sins............French Bread
For particularly dark sins..........Pumpernickel
For complex sins.............Multigrain
For twisted sins.............Pretzels
For tasteless sins.............Rice Cakes
For sins of indecision............Waffles
For sins committed in haste.......Matzo
For sins of chutzpah.........Fresh Bread
For the sin of substance abuse/marijuana........Stoned Wheat
For the sin of substance abuse/heavy drugs.......Poppy Seed
For the sin of committing auto theft...........Caraway
For the sin of committing arson.........Toast
For the sin of passiveness when action is warranted....Milk Toast
For the sin of being ill-tempered/sulky.........Sourdough
For the sin of cheating customers.........Shortbread
For the sin of risking one's life unnecessarily.....Hero Bread
For the sin of excessive use of irony.........Rye Bread
For the sin of telling bad jokes............Corn Bread
For the sin of being money hungry.........Raw Dough
For the sin of warmongering.............Kaiser Rolls
For the sin of immodest dressing...........Tarts
For the sin of causing injury or damage to others......Tortes
For the sin of promiscuity............Hot Buns
For the sin of promiscuity with Gentiles..........Hot Cross Buns
For the sin of davening (praying) off tune.......Flat Bread
For the sin of being holier than thou.........Bagels
For the sin of indecent photography..........Cheese Cake
For the sin of overeating..............Stuffing
For the sin of gambling.........Fortune Cookies
For the sin of abrasiveness.........Grits
For sins of pride............Puff Pastry
For the sin of cheating........Baked Goods with Nutrasweet and Olestra
For the sin of impetuousness......Quick Bread
For negligent slip ups.......Banana Bread
For the sin of dropping in without warning..........Popovers
For the sin of perfectionism.......Angel Food Cake
For the sin of being uptight and irritable........High-Fiber Bran Muffins
Remember, you don't have to show your crumbs to anyone.
ObSubway: No Redbird sightings yet, but I'm keeping my eyes open!
I've had to use a creek that's somewhat reminiscent of the Gowanus Canal, because it's all that was available. If there are any fish in the Boneyard Creek, they have two heads.
All four eyes staring at you while you perform your ritual...and then one head debating the other on FishTalk...:0)
;-) Andrew
Alan
;-)
--Mark
AEM7
My uncle's first name is Shea, pronounced as two syllables. It's the Yiddish diminutive for Yehoshua, or Joshua.
Now, I am really confused. Isn't Yiddish a Jewish language? So what's the difference between Hebrew and Yiddish? Are they different? So do Jewish people generally speak Yiddish, and Isrealites tend to speak Hebrew?
AEM7
United Statesian Jews who spoke Yiddish also speak their native country's language.
Hebrew is a Semitic language, part of the Afro-Asiatic language group (not Indo-European!) and has little relationship with Yiddish except for a few borrowed words in Yiddish and the alphabet (Yiddish does not primarily use the Latin alphabet). Hebrew is most closely related to Aramaic, but among commonly spoken languages, Arabic.
:-) Andrew
Hebrew is the language of the Bible. Since then it has always been the predominant language for rabbinic literature and for Jewish liturgy, although there are exceptions -- e.g., the most prominent post-Biblical Jewish work, the Babylonian Talmud (which fills up an entire bookshelf), is in Aramaic, the vernacular at the time it was written. (Hebrew and Aramaic are both Semitic languages, and they share an alphabet, so it's not hard for someone who knows Hebrew to figure out an Aramaic passage.) Hebrew was never used as an everyday spoken language since the time of the Bible, but it's always been a familiar language to the Jewish people, since the daily prayers are in Hebrew (for the most part). One side note is that, over time, varying pronunciation modes developed from community to community. The early Zionist movement decided to revive Hebrew as a spoken language, with a uniform pronunciation and with lots of new vocabulary. Modern Hebrew is the everyday language to Israelis.
Yiddish, by contrast, is a Germanic language that grew up in the (Ashkenazic) Jewish communities in Germany and Eastern Europe. It has many loan words from Hebrew, but it is very different from Hebrew. Another language with analogous origins is Ladino, coming from the Spanish (Sephardic) Jewish community. Most American Jewry is Ashkenazic, so some Yiddish has been absorbed into American culture, particularly in the Northeast. (Ever eat a bagel?) Most American Jews don't speak Yiddish, but there are still some communities that keep it alive. Go for a stroll around Boro Park or Williamsburg and you'll see lots of signs in Yiddish.
In other words, who cares about the Redbirds.
:-) Andrew (Avram) Kirschner
Starting on Wednesday I noticed them tearing up the girder rail on the eastbound side, the inside track on the the curve there. This continued yesterday, and I'm assuming that it will go until at least monday, perhaps friday afternoon. Wednesday I observed a bundle of 6 pieces of girder rail, about a dozen tie bars (or whatever you call the steel things under the cement that hold the ties in gauge), and some connector plates sitting on pine south of spruce, with several light trucks and guys with jack hammers going at the concrete in between the tracks. Yesterday I walked by there about 1pm and this time jotted the vehicle numbers and types into my handspring, here's what was there:
OPS3590 International truck with larger Altec crane
OPS5664 Backhoe
OPS3636 International (I Think) with light Liftmoore crane
OPS6340 Ingersoll-rand generator, towed by OPS9963
OPS9936 Freightliner FL70 Crew cab National folding crane on back
OPS4871 Ford dump truck/plow "Midvale" written on side
The entire northbound side of 42nd is shut down, and Spruce is restricted headed east during the work. No word on whether the Westbound side will undergo the same treatment, it was that track which 9001 derailed off of. Also I checked my photo collection, sadly, despite all the time I spent at 42nd and Spruce taking photos of the trolleys on the diversion route, I never got the building hit by 9001 in the pics, but it did provide an excuse to upload some old pics I took at 42nd and Spruce.
The first 10 photos in my Transitgallery.com album are of the area around 42nd and Spruce.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars
And my main album is at:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/WdobnersPhillyshots
Hopefully I'll go get a digital camera this morning and get some shots of both the construction and the damage, if I do I'll post them back up on Transitgallery.
Just curious.
I'm also glad for the sake of the driver that operator error doesn't look like the cause of the accident.
Is there any word on the condition of 9001?
Mark
Does anybody know whether the "pads" the rails sit in at LIRR's RR crossings theoretically deform under specific conditions enough to change the gauge and derail a train?
-Robert King
Sean@Temple
Starting last winter the 33rd and Market Subway-Surface stop underwent a rebuild, which roughly coincided with Drexel's deforesting of the corner to place a $500,000 statue of a dragon largely regarded by the student body as "flaming." At the time the rebuild made some sense to me, since I assumed that the subway-surface station's entrance shelters would be back, perhaps slightly less obtrusive due to the lack of trees and their rather utilitarian design (or this being Drexel, shaped like some sort of Phallic symbol, just for shits and giggles, who knows?). They removed the roof of the one shelter, the one on the northeast side of the grounds, stripped all the paint, and replaced the glass blocks (you know those big wavy glass blocks) with cinderblocks. And then they left it like this, for 6-7 months now the northeast entrance, closest to Market, has been closed, leaving only the southeast, 33rd st, side one for entrance, and leaving a massive grey blight right next to the brand new yet-completely unremarkable (as well as crappy and unused) Pearlstein Business Center and our favorite dragon statue. It fits in well with those two crimes against art and architechture, but it's an affront to the shear genius (comparitively) that is the other station entrance kitty-corner to it on the lot.
Fast forward to yesterday, suddenly SEPTA decides they're gonna work on 33rd St again. I really don't understand this, they had 6 months to fix up 33rd st, during which it no doubt sees it's lowest use from the end of June til the middle of September. Yet they waited 2 days after Drexel goes back to school, no doubt one of the higher times for their ridership at that station, to start work on it again.
I really don't understand this, why such a schedule for working on the station?
You'd have to ask SEPTA. Possibilities include budget scheduling (ie there was money for the project up to six months ago, and now there's a new allocation for it), lack of budget (did you read about the Governor's game of budget chicken with the Penn. legislature?) or perhaps other work not directly related to this station but impacting on it.
There are other possibilities. I invite you to add as you please.
>>>The brand new full length train...<<<
MN has new trains??? Score another one for journalistic integrity.
Peace,
ANDEE
Several world leaders are staying and holding meetings at the Waldorf this week in conjunction with the U.N. General Assembly session.
And I bet they didn't get secret escape trains, screw Chirac and Schroeder, and the rest! Although I wonder if we would have provided one to Blair (did he show for this?) and Aznar had they shown up? Of couse if Jean Chretein had sided with the 'right' side and joined our "Coalition Of the Willing" (or COW, which is exactly what we did to the members). Then we would have provided him with a train too, which he could have just ridden home to canada, where it's safe, and nobody in their right mind would launch a terrorist attack.
Gotta love it, though ... for the dewd that INSISTS upon "bring it ON!!!" ya gotta love how he's unwilling to have HIS soul smoked like New Yorkers so he can pound his chest and look "Presidential" ... New York remains a target, and he can't deal with his stuff.
Time to change the bedsheets in 2004. :)
Here I thought the "See-Cure, Uhn-Disclosed-Location?" (SCUd-L? another name for our favorite dictator's Al Hussain missiles?) was Smallbany!
It makes sense, you can zip up there from GCT, Shrub'd even get a nice view heading up the Hudson. The Secret Service could race him to the Joe Bruno SCUd-L (built by Betchel, cost overruns, only 8 mil, all of which were pocketed by the CEO and funneled back into the 35 million dollar wad of cash Dubya's got) in Rensselaer, and there he'd be safe among his own kind. Who in their right mind would launch a terrorist attack up there? They's gots guns and prohibit the wearing or selling of vaguely anti-american T-shirts in malls up there! Those Al-Queda arab-rednecks wouldn't know what hit them when every other person in the crowd is armed and they find themselves outgunned!
Now imagine our poor Tw/O accidentally routed the Dubya Express-from-danger up the harlem branch! Then again, I'm pretty sure that Brewster or Dover Plains is probably as safe as Smallbany, the only problem could come if they get switched off into Connecticut, since we all know how they voted! Or even better if they want to get back to Washington by train, "What do you mean we can't get there from here?!" That new Tappan Zee bridge would have funding and 4 tracks so fast it'd make your head spin, regardless of whether it helped to repair the damage done to New York by the collateral damage left by the terrorists trying to snuff out Shrub. :/
Yeah, BRING it on as far as Smallbany goes ... if Shrub thinks his homeys in Texass are bubbas, heh ... upstate, the motto is "Protect your right to arm bears." Ummmmm ... no child left behind, it's that schoolin' thing ... brain damage, PCB's, CSX. Moo. (grin)
Well, if it "is always running and ready for an instant departure," it couldn't be an electric. People don't talk about electrics like that.
--Mark
Of course, we have a strike against us already, because Philly doesn't have a circle of abandonded ROWs that could be easily converted, so this really is a fantasy plan, what with all the infrastructure and whatnot it would require.
But this is what occured to me. The core of my Philadelphia crosstown loop would be 52nd St. Right now the 52 bus runs every five minutes at rush hour, and its crowded to the gills. This is a corridor that needs rail. Do my fantasy line would include the route of the 52.
From the south end of the current 52 bus route at 49th and Woodland, my new line would swing east across the Schuylkill and run the length of Washington Avenue, intersecting the Broad Street Subway and joining a revived Columbus Boulevard trolley (this is fantasy,
remember).
In the north, where the line reache City Avenue I'd continue the line along City Avenue running northeast. I'd continue it somehow across the southern frontier of Germantown, making transfers with the regional lines and the Broad Street Subway along the way, and somehow reaching the west end of Cottman Avenue (not sure how just yet) then swinging east to run along Cottman to terminate at the Tacony R7 regional rail station. This line would also intersect the Roosevelt Boulevard subway if it were ever built (yeah, right).
I've thought about making the northern branch fork, too, with a more a more southerly branch running along Allegheny Avenue.
I can see lots of other routes that might be just as good or better, but that's basically it. I'm not sure if all of these corridors need such a service, other than the part that includes the 52 bus route. I know the plan isn't feasible from an engineering point of view because not all the ROWs exist, so we'd have to do expensive tunneling or property condemnation along the route. What's more, on the one part of the route where I know the ridership exists, the riders are neither white nor wealthy, so their needs won't be given the highest priority anyway.
There's a million reasons this will never happen. It may not even be an inherently good idea. But its fun to think about.
Mark
Sean@temple
ps i saw someone at the city hall station yesterday taking pictures, i don't suppose it was any of you guys?
Mark
The reason I didn't dream of this line serving both Manayunk and and Germantown is that I had another idea for Germantown service. This would have started in Center City with a subway under Franklin Parkway to serve the Free Library and the Parkway museums, then going north under Fairmount Park, up the 33rd Street corridor, and then maybe connecting to one of the Chestnut Hill regional lines, which in this fantasy is converted to a rapid transit line.
Well, once again, history depresses me, as I later learned that a Franklin Parkway-33rd Street line was in fact planned in the...I'm not sure...the 1920s or 30s, I think. (Sean@Temple, please help me out here!) Like many other Philly rapid transit plans, it never came to be.
: (
Mark
Mark
Mark
You've got that right! I think the disadvantage the Roosevelt Subway has in terms of media coverage and politcal interest is that it's in the city and not the suburbs. I hate to sound so jingoistic, but that's what I think is going on.
Mark
Actually you have it backwards. Take the Woodhaven Road thing(if you are familiar with what i'm talking about). It was the same people who would protest this subway/elevated line thing for various reasons I won't mention, but most of them are gone now. The tides changing drastically in terms of demographics, and socio-something(i don't know what). If it was the suburbs it wouldn't happen(at least an MFL or broad street extension anyway), but the area is starting to be more "city" than it has been.
Sorry for quasi-code, but anybody from the city(i mean city not 40 miles in a suburb) knows what i'm getting at.
Mark
Mark
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
They've gotten as far as evaluating several options and picking one final preferred plan. The option, called "C-prime," includes a subway under the Boulevard that branches off the Broad Street Subway north of Erie, with open cut stations to save money. It also involves extending the Market-Frankford line to Roosevelt adn Bustleton to meet the new line.
I haven't heard anything new since C-prime was selected early this year. I don't know if anyone is really moving to make the line a reality or if the report is just going to sit on a shelf forever.
Mark
Travelcards are of course valid today.Converted to mainline fares in 1976.
Has a long and interesting history called the "Big Tube" - see Alan Jacksons book on London Suburban Railways.One of the few tube sections converted to main line ! Scene of very bad tube crash in 1974 when a 6 car 1938 train hit the buffers at speed .
wayne
28th Feb, 1975.
It should open to King George V in late 2005, branching off the Beckton branch at Canning Town, with a station site at Thames Wharf, and stations at West Silvertown, Pontoon Dock, London City Airport, and King George V. The extension beyond King George V to Woolwich Arsenal (tubes under the River) should open about 3 years later.
The phase from Canning Town to King George V will cost £140 million.
The phase from King George V to Woolwich Arsenal will cost £150 million.
The Transport for London website says this about the DLR extension to London City Airport.
Construction (including testing and commissioning) of the line started in March 2003 and is estimated to last approximately two and a half years, with the line opening in late 2005.
(http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/development/extensions/lca/construction.htm)
There is no date for the further extension to King George V, just a statement that powers are being sought.
Consist: Electric Locomotive #6, D type units 6112abc, and N1 or N2.
Leave Coney Island Yard at 9:00 for Track J-1 Chambers Street, for 10:30 boarding.
Leave Chambers at 10:40 for Metropolitan via J and M Lines.
From Metropolitan, south via the M to Marcy and relay.
From Marcy via J/L lines to Rockaway Parkway/Canarsie and Lunch.
From Rockaway Parkway to Broadway Junction and relay.
Via the L line to south of Sutter, crossing to the Linden Flyover/Linden Yard lead.
Leave Linden Flyover and operate via L and J lines to Chauncey Middle, Track J-3/4.
Operate through East New York Yard to Broadway Junction Station, Track J-3/4.
Via J line to Chambers Street and end.
Train returns to Coney Island Yard.
[b]Sunday’s BMT Southern Division Trip[/b]
Train leaves CIY for Chambers St.
Boarding at Chambers St - J
Train leaves southbound operating via J and Q lines to Brighton Beach, South through CIY to West End,
via W to 38 St Yard, loop Yard and return to 9th Ave.
Via W to Whitehall Middle.
Lunch
Via N to CIY, through Yard, then
via F to W. 4 St, relay,
s/b on F to south of B'way/Lafayette,
Christie cut to J line,
J line to Marcy, relay, return to Chambers St.
Next to staion entrance is some of the best pizza and food there (can someone please remind me for the name of the place?). Other places, McDondalds, Chinese, others
Whitehall:
McDonalds and a deli/grocery on Water St. Subway sandwiches by Bowling Green on Broadway (left side). For other places, take any uptown train to Cortlandt St and walk one block for 2 Burger Kings (One by Vesey and one on Broadway near Fulton), Mcdonalds (with piano at 160 Broadway), Wendys (might not be open on Sunday, will look into that later today), and a buffet place. If weather holds up, relax by riverfront inside Battery Park and take in the views.
There are no places to eat by the Whitehall Ferry Terminal, it is under reconstruction and the hot dog place in front of the old 1/9 subway entrance is gone too.
Armandos.
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
(1) The "ding dong", with about a 1/2 second pause between the "ding" and "dong."
(2) Another sound I can't describe - it sounds like "do-dee-do-dee-do-do-do," all in chimes.
Its driving me crazy!
That's the sound of AC propulsion. Something new for the new millenium as transit and commuter railroads go.
Bill "Newkirk"
R-32.
That's one of the many detail differences among them. I've noticed more; mostly related to construction though.
R-32.
Yeah, generally called 'choppers'. What it does is that it takes input DC voltage (like those on the third rail, whose voltage levels don't vary with time), and chops it up by very quickly turning a (solid state) switch on and off. The reason it ramps up is because the 'on' and 'off' timings depend on what speed the motor is turning at.
What I mean is, if you notice, the Kawasaki's converter's sound climbs in steps - going from a low tone to a high tone and switching back down again, the train getting ever faster. This much like a transmission switching gears - of which there are three 'gears'. The Bom's on the other hand, that violin sound (I like that analogy) - if you listen very carefully - switches in pitch, in small steps, ever higher, with no low spots (tones), and there seems to be many more 'steps', though not nearly as definitive as the Kawasaki's.
I've not heard either cars in person, but I've had some exposure to Boston's 01800 cars which is the forerunner to Bomb's version of R-142. Someone with an electrical engineering degree might want to correct me, but I think the 'stages' is to do with different frequencies being applied to different poles on the motor. The sound of the motor always goes up in frequency when train is accelerating, and always goes down in frequency when the train is decelerating, but when it switches 'gears' the frequency will tend to drop to say half or third of its former values, because instead of energizing every pole with a distinct frequency, it is now energizing every other pole with a distinct signal so in effect there are half as many poles as there are before. The sound of the chopper will depend on how many poles the rotor (rotating part of the motor) does have and what kind of gearing is used. I can't explain why the Kawasakis sound like how you say it does but the 'violin' sound is consistent with a rising frequency due to train acceleration.
AEM7
Where's Phillip Nasadowski? He should be chiming in here.
Now, the thing is, we can be either fully on, or fully off. why? because if we're 'in between', Ohm's law comes into play and the poor semiconductor has to dissipate a large thermal load. But, full on = almost 0 ohms, full off = almost infinite ohms. So, little heat created. The big heating is only in that fraction of a second transitional state.
And these guys are tough - even a small Mosfet can be heated to the point it litterally MELTS off the circuit board - and it will STILL work. I've done it before.
But, naturally, full on full off makes for bad motor control. Actually, almost impossible control.
Enter pulse width modulation.
At a high frequency (1000 Hz), we turn the semiconductors on and off. Imagine a room with a light in it. if we turn it on, the room's bright, if we turn it off, the room's dark. Now, if we turned the light on then off quickly, and our 'on' time and 'off' time werer the same - the room's average brightness would be 50%, right? because it's bright 1/2 the time and dark 1/2 the time.
Hey neat - we can do the exact thing with the electricity going to the motor. If we 'pulse' it real fast, the duty cycle (on time vs total cycle time, as a percent) basically sets the average voltage. So, on a supply of 100 volts, if we have a 50% duty cycle, the average voltage seen would be 50 volts.
Now, if we make the duty cycle closer to 100%, we get a higher voltage, if it's closer to 0%, we get a lower voltage. Let's have the computer vary it in the form of a sine wave, and we suddenly get an average that's a sine wave - an AC current.
So, by controlling all 6 semiconductors this way, we can get a sine wave, plus a lot of harmonics and that EEEEE noise, accross the motor. And since we're dealing with what's pretty much a digital input to the semiconductors, a computer has no trouble doing this.
It'll work with a motor, a light, LEDs, lots of things. Even audio - some CD players (1 bit) use it.
So, we can basically control a huge motor very efficiently simply by flipping the power on and off real fast. Naturally the execution is a bit more complex, but that's the basics of it.
If I recall correctly, a rheostat varies current flow by increasing or decreasing resistance. But a rheostat would not be good here because it would lead to excessive heat, as you have described. Ergo, the use of Pulse Width Modulation.
Have I got that right?
Is a capacitor critical to PWM applications on the subway?
Once you've done the 'chopping', the signal doesn't go straight to the motors -- there is usually a capacitor connected in parallel with the motor (in a very simple implementation). It's called a 'smoothing capacitor', basically there to prevent the voltage from dropping all the way to zero when the thrystor goes off, and prevent it from shooting all the way up to (say) 600V when the thrystor goes on. This way, the motor will get a smoother ride because you'll get the average voltage. It's I suppose how digital-to-analogue converters work, it's the only way to get 0.5 out of a fast-moving strings of zeros and ones.
It's been a long time since I understood this, so some details might be outdated/wrong. Please feel free to correct me.
This may help:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lexcie/traction.htm
This may also help:
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-02.html#Modern%20AC%20Electric%20Loco
Rheostat is a mechanical device. Where you set the lever governs how much resistance that thing has, because the lever essentially 'short through' the rest of the coils, and your electricity is only travelling around the part of the coil before the lever contact point. A rheostat would work for D.C. voltage regulation, and, I suppose, for modulating a signal if you physically yank the lever up and down very quickly. If it will help, you can think of a chopper as a rheostat that has an electronic way of controlling where the lever is, and can move that lever up and down many millions of times a second.
AEM7
Now I grasp what you're saying: basically a pulse driven motor as opposed to a contiuous motion motor. Those motors can be made to move to a certain spot and stay there. If a given finite range is given values, then a programmed computer (I'm going to be a programmer) can easily manipulate that motor to a given spot - and keep it there. They've had this in cars for a number of years now. Taking the IAC (idle air control) valve for example, the computer sets the idle value based on inputs from air temerature, water temp, etc. The ECM, as it is called, then sends a signal to the IAC - which is a stepping motor - and sends a value that's turned into a position that the motor is moved to. Anything that bogs the motor (engine) down (PS, AC, etc) causes the ECM to then change that value, causing the motor to increase the idle to compensate.
What I didn't realize was this concept could be utuilized for continuous rotation fast enough and powerful enought to power a train!
R-32.
A valiant try, however, and the sentiment is appreciated.
PREZ'S GRAND GETAWAY TRAIN
By CLEMENTE LISI
September 26, 2003 -- Call it the "Dubya Train."
A Metro-North train has been parked under The Waldorf-Astoria hotel this week as an "escape option" in the event of a terror attack on President Bush and other world leaders who stayed there, The Post has learned.
The Secret Service arranged for the train to sit along an abandoned platform connected by an underground passage to the landmark hotel in case an attack made it necessary to whisk leaders away to safety, law-enforcement sources said.
The brand-new, full-size train is always running and ready for an instant departure, the sources said.
The platform - identified as Track 61 on Grand Central Terminal blueprints - can be directly accessed from inside the posh hotel in the event of an emergency.
A 6-foot-wide freight elevator and stairway also connects the subterranean platform to a brass-sheathed door located on street level at 101-121 E. 49th St. under a sign that reads, "Metro-North Fire Exit."
The nondescript door is adjacent to the Waldorf's garage, which was filled with police cars and other escort vehicles from the president's motorcade - another escape option in the event of an emergency.
Several world leaders are staying and holding meetings at the Waldorf this week in conjunction with the U.N. General Assembly session.
Bush stayed at the hotel during his two-day visit on Tuesday and Wednesday, along with members of his Cabinet, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
Other leaders, such as Russia's Vladimir Putin, France's Jacques Chirac and Germany's Gerhard Schroeder, have held meetings at the Waldorf.
In the event of a security breach, Bush and other leaders could have boarded the train, which could then have sped off to a secure location.
The unused station is under the Waldorf on 49th Street and Park Avenue and was never meant for riders. The 42-story hotel was completed in 1931.
The platform and adjacent tracks are normally used as a yard for out-of-service Metro-North trains and can be seen by commuters going in and out of Grand Central.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's that same type of thinking that led our noble press to disclose the name of the Iraqi man who collected the money for turning in Saddam's sons. I guess it would have been easier just to paint a bullseye on the back of his shirts and jackets. No wonder nobody wants to come forward with any information about Saddam!
: )
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
It's that same type of thinking that led our noble press to disclose the name of the Iraqi man who collected the money for turning in Saddam's sons. I guess it would have been easier just to paint a bullseye on the back of his shirts and jackets. No wonder nobody wants to come forward with any information about Saddam!
: )
Mark
"Service had to be suspended on the F line between Fourth Avenue and Avenue X. The Transit Authority is running a shuttle service between Ditmars Avenue and Avenue X. "
^^^^^^^
Ditmars? That's one long shuttle :)
No big deal on the shuttle, it turns on the ramp down to the tunnel. What you do at Ditmas though is a problem since there is no longer a connection to 4th ave >G
Wait. That's not running either?
R-32s 3700-3701 had experimental energy-storage flywheels installed in Torrance, CA in 1972 and stopped in Pueblo on the way back to NYC for tests. The flywheels were removed in 1976.
In addition, R-42s 4653 and 4765 also spent time in Pueblo when new.
I was just checking out the transportation section of the Drexel Library while I had some free time on my hands. I found a plethora of stuff, including pics of the cars you are refering to, at Pueblo, the LIRR Garret Gas Turbine cars at Pueblo, a 1960's study on the air conditioning of the NYCTA system, cars in particular, but there was a bit at the end of the second book about air conditioning, or at least ventilating stations better. Provided I return the books I've had out since July and pay my fines, I should have some of the stuff scanned and uploaded by next week.
Heck yes, I actually TOOK photos of them at Santa Fe's San Bernardino yard when they were en route. (A couple of them are on this web site.)
Funny story behind how I even found them.....back in my wild and wooly days, I did some very stupid things. One of them was with a friend, we waited at Colton Tower one night intending to joyride on a freight train. We hopped a UP junker, and it was around midnight when we went through ATSF's SB yard. Came around a bend, and being half awake, thought..."Gee, that's a strange baggage car with four doors per side..." and then noticed the TA circle logo!!!! Unfortunately, hopping off the moving train wasn't an option...it never stopped until Barstow, 72 miles away. (Nice part of this trip was, a UP engineer on the way back invited my friend and I to ride the cab of one of the big Centennial locos, the UP 6922, back to Colton!!) Once we got back early the next morning, then I drove back over to where the 3700-3701 was and took all sorts of photos.
The reason the cars were in the yard was that coming down Cajon Pass, with the steep grade, the drawbar between the two cars broke as the cars were in the middle of a freight (real smart...)!! So ATSF had to have a new one shipped out from NYCTA along with a NYCTA technician to oversee the repair. And then, the cars would be handled ONLY right in front of the caboose after that mishap. The cars sat in San Bernardino for about a week before making the rest of their transcontinental journey!!
I did also see the cars at the Garrett Airesearch facility near Los Angeles...as I did work for Airesearch at the time, fueling private jet aircraft and airliners of Japan Air Lines and SAS. We weren't allowed to have cameras with us on the job, as it was a government contractor, so no photos were taken there.
In 1979, I was in NYC, and changed trains to an "RR" at Times Square. And what was on the head end, but 3700-3701!!!! By this time the experimental stuff was removed and they were just regular R32's once again.
We could make Jersey Mike happy by doing this year round.
heh, fragile. Makes me think they might fall apart if they go faster than 15mph. I think they could handle periodic service.
I've only seen vintage cars in service once. Returning from a class trip, on a C train, we saw a set of triplexes on the Southbound local track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Imagine our surprise when we saw it blaze by us at Clinton-Washington. The operator even blew the horn for us (we were on the platform).
I rode the Lo-V back in 1994, though I wasn't a railfan at the time. Basically it was good luck, I had heard on the radio about a vintage train being run on the shuttle and thought it would be a neat idea to try it.
In any event, there was a police officer aboard the train, presumably to deter vandals.
I would LOVE to see something like that next year!
#3 West End Jeff
That's all I'm going to say.
Mark
Oh ritue. Well I really don't think pink is that gay a color. I happen to like the color. I don't think we have a pink line in Boston. It will get confusing with the Red line. Sometimes I wonder what colors are valid colors for lines and which ones aren't. It seems that every city has Blue Orange Green Red and some cities have Purple Yellow Brown, but rarely do I see Pink White Black the only exception is Bostons Silver. AEM7
Toronto was an exception with their yellow Yonge-Spadina and green Bloor-Danforth lines, until they opened the Sheppard subway, which is...pink (or at least magenta).
I think the only brown lines in this country are in New York's J-M-Z and Chicago's Ravenwood line.
Mark
he said the Blue Line color was assigned to the southline as it skirts the ocean...it's cooler there. And the orange goes inland where it's hot as hell!!
Mark
Since I don't have X-ray vision, I couldn't see the approaches. Maybe someone who does can give an update on those.
I don't think people who do post on Subtalk.
Best wishes especially to my sparring partners: Pigs, Jersey Mike, David Greenberger. Subtalk wouldn't be any good without you; you do realize that! Be well and healthy and safe and enjoy the subway for me a little too, until I next make it out there.
I look forward each day to reading your posts, even when you "spar" with each other. I've got to get back to my holiday guests right now, so "over and out".
What is a readon? Is that like a washing powder? You can't spell, that is called RADON, not Readon. Like the gas. AEM7
Ahem.
Welllll....I coudn't say where she's comin' from but I just met a lady named Dynamoe Hum
She strolled on over said look here bum got a forty dollah bill say you can't make me cum
Ya jes' cain' do it.
She made a bet wit' her sister who's a little bit dumb she could prove it anytime all men would scum
I don't mind that she called me a bum but I knew right away she wuz really gonna cum
So I got down to it.
I whipped off her bloomers and stiffened my thumb an' applied rotation on her sugar plum
IIII poked and stroked til my wrist got numb but I still didn't hear no Dynamoe Hum
Dynamoe Hum
Dynamoe Hum
Dynamoe Hum
Where's this Dynamoe comin' from
I done spent three hours but I ain't gotta crumb
From the Dynamoe, Dynamoe, Dynamoe, from the DynamoeHummmm.
It goes on like that.
Wouldn't work. It would filter out perfectly good thread titles like:
"GP38 MS at ENY LIRR"
Hey, I wasn't at ENY LIRR!
That was taken around 1991 or 1992 approaching Port Jefferson. I believe that was after they had the Metra Engines pulling the double deckers, but before the FL9's came. I can't remember if the Metra Engines were before or after they had the GP38's pulling the double deckers. Those particular GP38's were retrofitted to work with the double-deckers.
By the way, anyone see anything wrong with the other photo?
No, that thread would appear as:
"gp38 ms at eny lirr"
AEM7
But "gp38 ms at eny lirr" would be perfectly readable. And anyway if the person posting knows that such filters exist, they could type it as "GP38 missing at Enola Yard, LIRR", which would be far more readable than "GP38 MS at ENY LIRR".
AEM7
Since earlier this morning but there is nothing of the MTA Service Alert. Also, DUH! WABC TV gets confused with Ditmas Ave with DITMARS Avenue.
Hope all of the NYCT personnel involved in the electrical fire near Church Ave are all OK and are recovering well.
Do you mean those buttons, or the console controls?
Have you loked at the pictures inside cabs that are posted on this site?
Jersey Mike: Can you point this young man to some engineer cab pictures as well?
Jersey Mike and AEM-7, among others, can explain things about the specific controls better than I can.
Some Buttons do this and others do that,
of course they are different with every kind of train.
On the newer ones he's got a whole computer he's gotta play with until he gets the destinations correct and etc.
I suspect that they are all clearly labled, and shouldn't be too hard to figure out, unless you can find the sign that says "Momentary Switch OFF"
: ) Elias
Elelator go down de hole. No you push da button, I push da button. Is my elelator, not your elelator, my elelator.
I wanna flush it again. Water go down da hole.
Jimmy :)
That picture of the R44 cab could prove to be useful for BVE.
Well, I took the picture during the blackout, so I guess it would be post.
TWU Local 100
R44,46,48, 142, 143: Its the same, the C/Rs position is a T/Os cab.
R40,42: Much fewer in the C/Rs position than the T/O.
R32,38: It depends on the line. A/E/F/R its less, the C/R is in the #2 cab. C its the same, C/R is in the T/Os cab.
Can't speak for A div equipment though, I know nothing about them.
Always repeating,repeating,repeating,repeating,repeating,repeating,....
P3eace,
ANDEE
It's been recognized as an exercise in futility. Dave at least has the power to do something to rectify the problem. Its the same reason why many people prefer to pray to Joe Pechi instead of God.
Is that commonplace?
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
til next time
Chuck Greene
It's a good camera for a 2 MP. My gripe is the poor Movie mode, but if you want to shoot movies get a camcorder. It does what a camera does well, and that's take pictures.
I think the Mavica takes better pictures, even though it's .4 megapixels smaller than the D380's 2mp. The Sony's optical systems are much better, featuring optical zoom, but it's floppy-only storage is a pain, writing the file takes forever, and then I have to sort through all the disks when I get home. On the otherhand the Olympus have somewhat shoddy optics with only digital zoom, it does feature flash memory card storage and USB transfer to my computer, which is great when I'm on a shoot-run and upload routine. Also the Olympus has much quicker response time than the Mavica, so I'm more likely to actually get the shot. Also I like the Olympus for nightshots, while the Olympus adapts itself to the light conditions, the Mavica's pictures always seem to be too dark, I'm sure theres a way I could work with the settings on the camera or do something in photoshop, but I haven't found the time yet.
Here's an image from the Mavica:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/aav?full=1
And one from the Sony
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/aad?full=1
If I can get a floppy-memory stick adaptor and use it in Drexel's Mavicas, then I'll most likely be set. I think I've seen them on Ebay for around 45 bucks, not including the stick, so for 4-5 years of use in a camera whose only flaw is the storage media, it might be a good investment.
Now what camera do I want? That's easy, a Minolta Dimage A1, first off cause my family has basically always had Minoltas, all two of them. My parent's still have their old OX-1 from before 1980, and it still takes excellent pictures, despite being dropped in both oceans (well Atlantic and Pacific to be specific) and 'lost' several times. My little sister got a new-fangled Minolta SLR with all sorts of gizmos on it for her last birthday, and I have to admit that camera turned me green with envy. Now all I need is 1100 bucks and I'm all set for 5mp digital photography! Do note that this purchase most likely will come WELL after college, after I've started paying off my massive loans and such, and if there's another out there for the same price, but better features, I'll no doubt go with that.
Wayne
An Internet chat site popular among subway fans carries a string of comments about the shutdown under the heading "Pathetic Washington D.C. Metro."
Click here for the entire article.
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
Now if only I would have posted to that thread... :(
Oh well, perhaps some Washington Post news flunkie was moved by AEM7 and Subwayworld's sparring over whether the METRO was a true transit system that people can depend upon, or just a toy for the 9-5 fair-weather commuter?
We can only hope his article yields us a few new competent sub-talkers...
That should read:
"...by AEM7 and Subwayworld's sparring with David Greenberger..."
And did I leave anyone who was involved with those rather interesting arguements out? Did I misinterpret the sides in the 'debate'?
"And that's Uncle Joe, he's a movin' kinda slow at the Junction...Pettycooooaaat Junction."
I'm not trying to revive the arguement--well actually I am--but the above comment is right on the money. And also describes the tone of some of the responses on the original thread. In fact, I'd throw in arrogant too.
Anyway, yee-haaaaaaah!!!! Great job Chris!
Peace,
ANDEE
After leaving Sutter Ave and heading toward Atlantic Ave, the MOD train will utilize the new alignment. A good time to see if the steelwork can withstand the humongous weight of the D-Types and Steeplecab engine !
See ya there !
Bill "Newkirk"
And if it can't....?
Chuck Greene
I just hope Atlantic Ave is a dedicated photo stop. I've haven't ridden thru this area in 4 years.
If the letters in WABCO stand for the former, why do the Westinghouse-propulsioned R62As run with New York Air Brakes?
To me, it would make a bit of sense to have the brake and propulsion package from the same manufacturer or company, unless there's some reasoning behind it?
Especially in the early years, although they were all independent
companies, there was a lot of cross-fertilization. The early
Westinghouse Electric multiple-unit controls used some of the
same components as schedule AM air brakes, and in fact the marketing
literature speaks of the advantages of using the compressed air
"already present on the car with the Westinghouse Automatic Air Brake"
for propulsion controls. Similar components were used on US&S
pneumatic semaphores.
#3 West End Jeff
In the case of the R-44 where the strip must be painted, then it was consistency.
Phil hom
Stafford VA
R-32.
R-32.
Jimmy
R-32.
I realized their existence by getting on the J train one day (on one of my hookey excursions). Those door pockets just jumping out at you; look like they're gonna hit you in the head!
That's another thing. I've been corrected before that (barring the 75 footers) they're the heaviest cars built. Plus, I read that they have a funky dynamic brake system. Oh, those seats, while comfortable, were not leather dude.
Interesting. In the book, Gotham Turnstyles, there's a picture of a train of 27's entering the Astoria Blvd, station, and then a train of Standards (which replaced the Standards) entering the same station. I went and got a pic of some 68's (which replaced the 27's) at the same station decades later. How's that for then & now?
R-32.
R-32.
Jimmy
R-32.
The r-12's and 15's had dimmer interiors with that indirect lighting and all (not even r-10's were that dim). It's also funny is to see them and r-15's spliced into an express train flying by at a virtual 100 mph. You see a string of lights flying by only to be interrupted by a few strings of dim lights - as the r-12 and/or r-15's would fly past.
R-32.
Jimmy
R-32.
You can get more sophisticated by having another browser window open with the display and refreshing it just before you post, and picking a less busy time on the server, so it’s not likely that someone will “steal” your message number.
John
You see, I don't want to post something that's just CONGRATS or MY CONDOLENCES. My posts need to be unique and creative or even dadaistic. If I was the first person to see the post, then I would respond, but by the time I see it there are 20 posts saying the same thing and I just feel that my response would be empty and devoid of meaning.
I can never win on Subtalk, first I'm attacked for always being negative, then when I try to show why it can appear that way, I'm attacked.
It's not about echoing everybody else's sentiments, as I see it. It is about adding your name to the list of those who took the time to utter those sentiments.
When a coworker or mutual friend of yours goes through some life-changing experience and they send around a greeting card, do you add your name and a small "redundant" blurb to it, or do you pass it onto the next guy and say, "Here, you can do it, but it's not for me."
Not attacking. I've learned a lot about debate reading your constructives. Just practicing what I learned, I guess . . .
Not to mention all those arrows sticking out of the bulkhead signs on the subway cars.
Dewd ... you're making me punchy ... :)
Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat.
Yeah, they came to get some Bambiburgers ... there'll be other folks up here later in the week. The rodents on stilts have gotten completely out of hand around here, so a few less would be a good thing. Despite all my offers, PeTA never made it up here with a truck to take them home, so we're going to take them out instead. (grin)
Yeh: And they have takeout too. --- I'm glad that you post this stuff at night when all the little R-10's are asleep.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
enlighten me please...?
He's stopped being such a prolific poster, and I can appreciate his work now.
Nobody really loses on Subtalk. Everybody gains.
O-B-S-E-S-S-E-D, say after me, OBSESSED. Not OBSCESSED.
AEM7
Elmer season!!!
The perfect description of "JERKY MIKE", IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah! "Self-absorbed" pretty much covers it.. ;-)
I'm sure no one else even tries for dadaistic posts.
It is also a term used to label something as "babble," or nonsensical.
Can we get Eddie Murphy to do "Hot Lunch !" after doing "Hot Tub!", his parody of James Brown's "Hot Pants" ?
Bambiburgers ? Perhaps "Bambi Meets Godzilla" is more like how some SubTalkers treat each other.
I commend whomever, way back when in this thread, noticed the "Bambi" poster on the station. I've noticed movie and other posters, and ads, in images on this site. That's a good part of the fun for me.
Paranoia ?
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't really out to get you."
- Mediocrites
"I love NY ! Where else can you be so paranoid and yet so right so much of the time ?"
- Woody Allen featurette for "The Concert for NYC" (10/20/01)
Rats in the subway ? Ben was the rat, Willard was the boy who loved him. I loved the comment on WBAI in 1971 or 72 on Michael Jackson's single, "Ben" : "That's gotta be the most liberated song going : a twelve-year-old black boy singing a love song to a rat!"
Is it the "cruel, callous Pig", as opposed to, "The Big Bad Wolf" (or just "The Big Bad") ?
David Pirmann is conspicuous by his absence from this and other long semi-OT threads.
If you look at the Brooklyn El images in the Frank Goldsmith pages of the Joe Korman site, you can see ads on the vertical faces of the girders between the el platforms and the tracks, such as "Lipton Tea : A Little Makes A Lot." Talk about no wasted space !
Re : The "Ben Hur" ad at 168th St. Jamaica BMT : I wonder if the film was then playing at Loew's Valencia adjacent to the station ?
I used to lunch frequently at Ellen's Cafe and Bake Shop in lower Manhattan, and was there for one of its last days of service at the end of April 2001. I still don't know where all of Ellen's "Miss Subways" posters went. The NYC Transit Museum, perhaps ?
Who remembers Miss Subways Heidi Haffner ?
I liked the "Who cares if you've been battered, mugged, etc." posters of late 1990, and the AIDS message "Julio and Marisol" comic book installments of five to six years later. I almost sent away for a J and M comic book.
I could have done without the Dr. M.D. Tusch ads. I heard on the radio news in mid-September 1991 that he was exposed as a fraud.
I still don't know how Dr. Jonathan Zizmor can afford to advertise on the subway.
There is an ad for the film "Cromwell" in a 1970 image of the BMT Astoria el.
Among my favorite ads are the "You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's" real Jewish rye bread ads, that appear frequently in images on our site.
Off-color tag line comments on ads are a whole subject in themselves.
However, my personal favorite was on a blank poster space, on the L line in spring 1970, either Graham Avenue or Grand Street (Canarsie-bound). Someone drew a horizontal line and printed over it :
"If you can piss above this line the fire dept. needs you !"
From about the same time, inside a subway car on the L line :
"If white is beautiful, how come they all want a tan ?"
There was much poetry in the form of graffiti on the mezzanine level of the Myrtle Avenue station on the L line following the fare increase from 20 to 35 cents in January 1970. Regarding either Mayor Lindsay or Governor Rockefeller :
"Another nickel, another dime, let's shoot the f**k while there's still time ! "
"A few more months, a few more years, Rocky must be blind and have
s**t in his ears !"
On a more positive note, I remember the "I got my job through the New York Times" ads from the early '70's that appear in many images on our site, also the WHN 1050 country music star posters from 1976, that all read "Thank you for being part of our country". At the time I jokingly suggested to a friend that WNEW FM, or some other rock station, post an image of the Rolling Stones, with the caption, "Thank you for being busted ! "
I too remember the EL PICO coffee ads.
Does anyone remember the "soap opera" like ads of Marisol and (I forgot his name, but it was a Hispanic name)? It was an ad about AIDS, and each ad had some other soap opera like drama of Marisol sleeping with someone and finding out they had AIDS, or her boyfriend sleeping with someone who had AIDS. It wasn't supposed to be humorous, but it sort of was.
Julio and Marisol. I looked forward to each new installment. It was a pity that the series seems to have been discontinued.
"You've got a friend at Chase Manhattan," on the back of a bus in the sixties.
I think that the 1965? ad used Joe Camel. I did not see him again until the 80's or 90's but I remember him in Jamaica.
"You don't have to be Jewish to love Levi's."
THE FASTEST ANIMALS IN THE WORLD
And as a devout racing fan I would fuck up fight anyone that dared to say the ad was wrong and mention the cheetah!!!
but New York loves the NY BETS. (OTB ad).
And who can forget this one?
"Flatbush ain't Flushing."
Was that for Astoria Federal Savings?
I would hope so, he owned the company at that time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Lot of variety to that scenario, and I've done most of `em.
I very much enjoyed it when my present home town's movie theater (Dobbs Ferry, NY) briefly resumed showing movies at the end of last year, in an art house movie festival. I saw "Gimme Shelter" there from the DVD, and the "projectionist" was kind enough to run the bonus material, as well as the feature film. I had great fun being inside, and imagining what it must have been like as a full-blown movie theater.
There's a large movie theater building visible in about eight 1970 images on our site of Saratoga Avenue station on the Brooklyn IRT elevated. Does anyone know what theater this was ? I know it wasn't Loew's Pitkin ... speaking of which, does anyone know where Loew's Pitkin was, as well ? All I know is that it was somewhere near the intersection of Pitkin and Rockaway Avenues in Brownsville, Bklyn.
Thanks in advance.
(To keep this transit related, Suffern is an easy trip on NJ Transit.)
--Mark
At least, it hasn't been "converted" into a "church".
Even if it were renovated or removed, I somehow doubt that part of E. Main would be in decent shape.
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/jamaica/bmt-jamaica-j168.html
It got me there just in time for the first pitch. I was even able to pick up a ticket for $1 (just like the 'ole days) from a "scalper" at the Shea stop.
How I'll miss the Redbirds :\
HA! Only in a perfect MTA.
The announcements are fine. Trains are fine. But every station looking like this:
?
They're ugly, IMO. They don't look like they were built with aesthetics in mind. I couldn't see anyone admiring the workmanship, but I've heard many times commuting tourists commenting on the tilework in NYC (except for that awful hideous clown at 34th Street/IND). Maybe its not important to the WMATA, but here I have something to look at while waiting for my train.
(There are no responses to this message.)<<<
The ratio of my arriving to the platform in time to JUST MISS a train greatly outnumbers the times I arrive JUST IN TIME to catch a train, to the tune of at least 7 to 3 out of ten. I'd like to get a statistical analysis of why it shakes out like this.
Maybe it just sucks to be me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The ratio of waiting 5-10 extra minutes for a late A train at night greatly outnumbers getting to the platform just in time.
You're not the only one it sucks to be. :)
Maybe you're waiting at the front of a (perhaps crowded) platform.
If you wait at the front, the majority of the time the train is in view is after you've missed it. If you wait at the back, the majority of the time the train is in view is before you can get on.
True.
However, I could do without some of the non-bland smells in NYCT.
And a higher percentage of working escalators and elevators (say, over 99%) would be bland but also very nice.
Escalators that can be fixed in less than six months when they malfunction would be a wonderful change.
Imagine my surprise last week to find it working! And it was still working today.
Wow! I'd be less surprised if the Sun rises in the west tomorrow morning!
And this sidewalk runs from street level to the mezzanine, so it is somewhat exposed to the elements (although it is covered), unlike some of the escalators that take years to fix.
Yeah, whoopie. Uh, the stations along the LIRR Babylon Branch are as close as I want to get to having train stations around here looking like those on the WMATA. And I'd bet they get more ridership to boot. Anyway, what good are those DC-area stations? Isn't the WMATA that transit authority that closes shop when the going gets tough?
Instead, WMATA should have some stations like Chambers Street or Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Give it a little class.
2 tracks: Only Island Platforms and a lot of crossovers to allow fast
rerouting on the left track and terminating while technical problems
3 tracks: Peak express runs over or under the 2 local tracks - local
like 2 track
4 tracks: Express runs on the outside of the locals. At express sations
island platform between express and local track and locals like 2 tracks
Express service on the Sea Beach
That is all I can think of now.
Fixing the insane arrangement at 34th St IND and IRT would be beneficial. Commuters should have a right to change to express or local service at 34th Street.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just to give a boost to the consensus here. Also, there is no definition of a “normal transfer station,” so don’t try to concoct one, please (some of us still can negotiate steps, and side-by-side transfer platforms still necessitate using steps/elevators between them not to mention taking up lots of horizontal space and thus being inefficient).
How to get closer to perfection? I have a few ideas, although they would be pipe-dreams for the most part…among them, four-track subway lines under 2nd, 3rd, 9th and 10th Avenues in Manhattan, an extension of the A-train Lefferts Boulevard branch right into JFK (why not) plus an extension of the Astoria Line elevated over GCP into LGA, westward extensions of all crosstown subways to at least the Hudson waterfront (or if possible extended into Hudson County NJ), a physical connection between the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and the Fulton Street Subway (restoring the link that was cut when the Fulton Street El said bye-bye), a Myrtle Avenue subway in Brooklyn mirroring the old El route as far as possible, someone else mentioned a restored Sea Beach express, with which I concur (but have trains operating at top speed of 60 mph at the very least if possible), permanent weekend express service where it presently reverts to local (e.g. Fulton Street with the A train), at least one Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx crosstown (too bad that Access To The Region’s Core Alternative G was nixed by the MTA and NY state in general otherwise Amtrak could have been diverted off the Hell Gate Bridge for just such a purpose)…I am sure this list will keep growing, but for now, that is enough…
"This is 23rd St / Asser Levy Pl. The next stop is 53rd St / Sutton Pl S."
I like one thing about WMATA, the platforms. Those cool lights that tell ya when a train is comming and w/e.
--Full service on the Manhattan Bridge 24/7
--Express service 24/7
--2 minute or less headways 24/7 on local service
--Cleanup of decrepit stations like 21st/Van Alst
--Police officer on every train
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Express service 24/7
--2 minute or less headways 24/7 on local service"
Ummm -- when, and how, would track maintenance get done?
"What if there was a perfect NYC Subway System..."
....We'd have nothing to post about on Subtalk.
'Wouldn't the world be exceedingly flat, with nothing whatever to grumble at'.
None necessary, in a 'perfect' system
www.forgotten-ny.com
Though I live in New York, I'm a Septa fan and the R6-Cynwyd is a favorite.
This is not what I'm getting at, though. The train did have pretty realistic rollsigns identical to R62/A ones. The 1 was signed as going from South Ferry to 137-Broadway. Was this the norm during 1989 (the filming of the movie)?
>60 cars
OK. I've always felt that to be a gross exaggeration but if you ride the train you're entitled to be irritated.
C'mon dude, they're not asking much of you, just that you resist the urge to punch 'Post New Message' for something that could easily be slipped in as a response to the person who so offended you. Just change the subject of the thread to whatever you would have posted the new message as and we'll all be happy.
Speaking of flipper, I flipped the subject, what were we talking about again? :)
You shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house.
And if you got a glass jaw, you should watch your mouth.
Cause I'll break your face,
have your ass runnin mumbling to the Jakes.
You're goin' 'gainst me dogg,
you're makin' a mistake.
I'll split ya leave ya lookin like the Michael Jackson jacket
With all them zippers.
I'm the boss on this boat, you can call me Skipper.
The way I turn the money over, you should call me Flipper.
Like??? Well actually I spend quality time at underground and do photo shooting on R32, 40, 40M, 42 b4 as many as I can b4 they retire on me which this really bugs the crap out of me cause R160 is heading to TA and my all time favorite R32 is about to get the boot. I don't get it, R32 can survive another 20-25 yrs from how it runs. And TA is about to destroy them? This is halarious
If I remember correctly, the second option order of R160s would get rid of the R32GEs, and MAYBE some of the R32s.
For now, they are safe. That's a good thing. :-)
But once the R32s do sadly retire, I'm definitely going on any "Farewell to the Brightliners" fantrips!
If someone can kindly link me to it, I'd appreciate it.
But the posters mixed up the Q and T trains. The T train which would use this connection would not begin operating until at least 2010 or later, and would never see the West Side. It would parallel the Lexington Av subway all the way down the East Side.
It is the extended Q train (Broadway-2nd Av service) that would take riders to the west side.
On this basis, connecting the SAS into the D line going up to the Bronx makes for a very effective diverter of passengers from the 4 train, which reduces Lex overcrowding. But this benefit would not occur until the full-length SAS was operating.
I think only GP38Chris actually got this detail straight. He still didn't like the concept (that's OK) but he understood exactly what was was being referred to.
Here's my opinion: there are far more important things to spend money on. Those parts of the Bronx that already have subway service don't need improved service (except more tph as justified by demand).
In contrast, the stubway definitely serves currently unserved areas and simplifies currently complex trips, as does (to a lesser degree) the T train down 2nd Ave to Wall St.
Far higher on the priority list than the SAS connecting into any Bronx line are Queens extensions of the E and F. Even an extension of the SAS into unserved areas like the far East Bronx and Co-op City makes more sense than just connecting to an existing line that is running nowhere near capacity.
I agree with you. Add the J also, to help the Jmaica business district with better service along Archer. A J extension of even two more stations would be great.
The E's tunnel extends 3000 feet in a curve away from Jamaica Center. That's over half a mile. What about just looking right at the end of that tunnel and putting a new terminal right around there (OK, extend the tunnel a few hundred more feet if you have to and straighten it). You could do that for the cost of one new station ($30-50 million).
Extend the F into Queens Village.
Problem: No major advocates in government for this. No patron saints. Could you find a few in between the math classes?
For those, who want to connect SAS with CPW:
If you connect a lot of lines together, you rise the chance, that
any service problems on one line can cause delays on others, which are
not running on the same rail as the defect train.
(f.e. Concourse connection: D->T->Q->...)
Yes, that's true. I was thinking (my opinion only) that the Q train would always terminate at 125/Lex whereas the T, only, would continue to the Bronx via the D line.
In the short term, the first segment of the SAS will be a Q Extension to 86th St/2nd Av. How many controversies can you possibly have with that? Very boring...
Let's make sure Stephen Baumann gets the blueprints for the 86th Street station's tail tracks (eg continuation of SAS) ahead of time, so he can rant about it here on Subtalk. That is, assuming he isn't stunned into silence by the very fact that MTA got it built...:0)
N Bwy
N Bwy
N Bwy
You...still...don't...get...it...
While a T train to the West Side WILL provide more useful options for SAS riders, it will NOT, repeat, will NOT draw anyone off the 4.
Repeat after me:
The T will NOT draw people off the 4.
The T will NOT draw people off the 4.
The T will NOT draw people off the 4.
...unless it makes significantly less stops than the 4, which it won't.
You mean the East Side.
Repeat after me:
I will read the preceding post carefully
I will read the preceding post carefully
I will read the preceding post carefully
"...unless it makes significantly less stops than the 4, which it won't."
I don't agree, because the T train's stations are spaced far enough apart that the difference between the T train and the 4 Express are miniscule. In the Bronx, the T could run o the Concorse express track in the morning, if this is seen as desirable. A skip-stop operation is also possible a la the Z or the 9, if that is desirable.
So the T would be very effective as a release valve for the Lex. The express vs. local argument is completely irrelevant.
N Bwy
"In the Bronx, the T could run o the Concorse express track in the morning, if this is seen as desirable. A skip-stop operation is also possible a la the Z or the 9, if that is desirable."
And leave my Broadway Lines to a separate corridor. THANK YOU!!!!
N Broadway Line
N Broadway
PS: Besides.. I don't want my trains mixed in with the IND.
BMT MAN!
But those very same people would transfer from the B/D/4 to the T at 125th if there were no direct service. So your basic point still holds.
In either case, those bound for points near 2nd will end up on the T and those bound for points near Lex/Park will end up on the 4 (perhaps transferring later on to the 6).
Yes, and the T will attract passengers for points equidistant between the two or farther away rom the Lex. That's fine.
"And if the T doesn't run up the Concourse line at all, but continues across to Broadway or beyond, anyone bound for points near 2nd Avenue will transfer from the B/D/4 to the T at 125th Street anyway. "
Yes, that's true. Riders will start on the Lex, and then transfer (which will be facilitated by an ADA compliant terminal and transfer.
But part of my rationale was, in addition to the "one seat" ride aspect of it, we're doing two things:
1) We're restoring two distinct destination geographies to the Concourse line (which used to have it when the C went to Bedford Park Blvd.)
2) We're giving Bronx politicians something to help support the SAS politically over the long haul, something which wouldn't cost as much as throwing a new tunnel across the Harlem River. That's the part you seem to be tone-deaf to.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having the section of the SAS pointing toward the Bronx eventually extended to connect to the Jerome. You could run 12 tph on the Jerome, and 12 tph over to 125th and Park. Those residing east of Jerome and going to Lower Manhattan would lose a very quick one-seat ride on the #4. But everyone else on the Jerome would be at least as well off, most better, and you'd pull 70,000 or so people off the Lex who probably would not otherwise go.
A rider on your hypothetical Broadway-2nd Ave-Concourse Service would be chugging up 2nd Ave to 125th Street where once there, they would have to go west across half the width of Manhattan, go north some more to 145th Street, then go east again the same distance they just went west on! As edwards said somewhere in this long thread, the Concourse/2nd Ave line was supposed to be one straight route as originally planned, and you can see that they actually line up with each other on the map, so they are in the same north south alignment.
Why would these passengers want to go all the way west, just to come all the way back east again, when they could probably just take the Lexington line straight up to Jerome?
On a similar note, I used to travel between the Queens M line and Downtown Brooklyn near MetroTech. Instead of taking the one seat M line from:
Queens M-WillyB-Nassau-Montague Tunnel-Lawrence Street
I took:
Queens M-WillyB-Essex/Delancey (F Train)-Jay Street/Boro Hall
Even though the M went direct, it is a very circulous route and took about an hour. The M/F combination took about 45 minutes, even with the wait for the second train, so sometimes a two seat ride is faster than a circulous one seat ride.
I think the Broadway-2nd Ave-CPW Line-Concourse Line vs. Broadway-Lexington/Jerome is similar to my M vs M/F scenario.
On surface streets, it would matter. Not a lot of time lost on the subway.
BTW please don't call this "Broadway-2nd Av service." That is the Q train, which would terminate at 125/Lex. I would not extend that train further.
"Why would these passengers want to go all the way west, just to come all the way back east again, when they could probably just take the Lexington line straight up to Jerome? "
Because the Lex is crowded and (at present) there is no express service on Jerome.
The V train will never be as crowded as the F. But it has proven its value nonetheless. I expect that the 4 train will still carry a lot of people. But enough people will get on the T that the folks waiting further south for a 4 train will find fewer delays and less crowding.
I agree with you that 2nd Av service should be extending straight into the Bronx. I advocate or that. But in the absence of doing that anytime soon (the bellmouth planned at 2nd Av when the train starts to curve toward 125 St station will have tail tracks pointed north on 2nd Av, so one day the TA CAN extend it north), the easiest way to offer Bronx Lex riders and others more choices is a merger with the D.
Why would a Bronx person ride the Lexington Av #4 train if a T train on the Concourse Line offered them express service on the Concourse and took them closer to their real destination, east of 3rd Av? Why would they want to get on a crowded Lex train and walk 3-4 long blocks or more after they get off, if the SAS T train would let them off only a block away, or even right at their destination?
N Broadway
Because it probably wouldn't stop at their stop in the Bronx anyway, so they would have to ride the B train to the T, then it would drag them over to St Nicholas Avenue which is West of 8th, then run local the width of Manhattan plus however far down they're going (and 10 stops to 42nd St is WAY more than 3, the number that the 4 train makes in Manhattan before 42nd St, so don't even try to claim that they are express-spaced - they aren't - they're just inconveniently enough far apart to make it a crap local).
Only if they couldn't read a map. The Concourse line parallels the 4 line all the way up. The 5 line is more of a problem. Even some 5 riders could use a T train, depending on where they live.
Mind you, the T could also be run as a Concourse local. It would depend on how passenger demand developed.
"then it would drag them over to St Nicholas Avenue which is West of 8th, then run local the width of Manhattan"
A trivial addition to their travels, especially since it saves them a walk of 3 or 4 long blocks in the rain to their destination.
"and 10 stops to 42nd St is WAY more than 3, the number that the 4 train makes in Manhattan before 42nd St,"
Why do you assume everyone is headed for 42nd Street? There are a lot of businesses and hospitals along First Av well north of that. And 7 additional stops amount to 3-4 minutes more travel time only if the Lex express isn't delayed because the C/R can't get the door closed due to crowding. That makes the time difference more like 2 or 2.5 minutes. Sounds to me like you're creating a tempest in a teapot.
"so don't even try to claim that they are express-spaced - they aren't - they're just inconveniently enough far apart to make it a crap local)."
False statement on your part. Look at the Broadway Express track and tell me how far apart the stations are. By your standards, that's just a crappy local too.
If it were up to me, I would have made the SAS four tracks, and would have paralleled the Lex express and local stops all the way down. But there's no money for that, and there's also no money to lay in a new tunnel to the Bronx (though the bellmouth at 125 St will be there to allow it). I regret that, but there it is.
The SAS is designed for higher-speed running than the Lex. That will help reduce total travel time. So will less crowding.
I understand your complaints, but all in all, they're rather trivial, as the map and distances involved prove.
There is precisely one station on the Broadway Express North of 42nd St. It doesn't even run between 57th and 125th, so it is irrelevant.
If it were up to me, I would have made the SAS four tracks
If it were up to me, I would have made the relatively easy additions of:
- at 116th St 2 island platforms with only the outer trackways having tracks.
- at 72nd St 2 island platforms with 4 tracks, the middle pair heading downtown and the merge North of the station
- leaving space for extra tracks between 72nd and 116th and for those tubes to dive under the 125th St line North of 125th, should it ever be necessary to build them.
- perhaps a slightly closer spacing of stations, like the Lex Local
That way a 2 track, all local line would be built, but with the advantage of being able to build Express tracks and have a T Express, Q Local configuration should it ever be required.
South of 63rd St, a 2 track alignment is really all that could ever be necessary. As you point out about the Broadway Express (and is even more markedly true about the 8th Avenue Express), practically every station would need to be an Express station anyway.
The SAS is designed for higher-speed running than the Lex.
I'm pleased. But that is no reason to preclude the possibility of ever having Express service.
You did not pick up what I meant by this analogy:
The Broadway Express has relatively few local stations between its express stops. The pacing of its stations is key to the analogy I was referring to, not its geographic location.
"If it were up to me, I would have made the relatively easy additions of:
- at 116th St 2 island platforms with only the outer trackways having tracks.
- at 72nd St 2 island platforms with 4 tracks, the middle pair heading downtown and the merge North of the station
- leaving space for extra tracks between 72nd and 116th and for those tubes to dive under the 125th St line North of 125th, should it ever be necessary to build them.
- perhaps a slightly closer spacing of stations, like the Lex Local
That way a 2 track, all local line would be built, but with the advantage of being able to build Express tracks and have a T Express, Q Local configuration should it ever be required. "
OK, I like that. Very nice.
"South of 63rd St, a 2 track alignment is really all that could ever be necessary. As you point out about the Broadway Express (and is even more markedly true about the 8th Avenue Express), practically every station would need to be an Express station anyway. "
OK. You could go either way on that argument. If there's no money, no sense crying about it. If there is, extend the 4 tracks at least to the 30's. You wouldn't hear me complain too much.
On the other hand, with money could build the cuphandle route down Av C also...
My guess is that would be:
- less valuable than express tracks 72/2 thru 116/2
- more valuable than express tracks below 72/2.
Agreed. So your order of priority would be (assume the basic line is under construction and funded) express tracks for Harlem and the Upper East Side, followed by the Cuphandle, followed by express tracks downtown (but these would be a much lower priority, and perhaps never done).
Oh? Typical spacing is 2-3 local stops between express stops, except on the three-track Bronx lines, until the IND came along and tried to change everything. The Broadway express is pretty typical.
That's right, but I was, in fact, comparing spacing specifically to the IND (Central Park West, and you could also compare to Queens Blvd.) and the Lex between 125 and 86 Street.
Reread the thread.
There are only two possibilities here:
1) You're not capable of reading and understanding English at the 5th grade level (not likely)
2) You're posting nonsense for the fun of it (but that makes it difficult to take your posts seriously).
:0)
(Because it probably wouldn't stop at their stop in the Bronx anyway, so they would have to ride the B train to the T, then it would drag them over to St Nicholas Avenue which is West of 8th...)
I just had a far more radical thought, though one that is so far down the pike and so unlikely to be funded that it almost isn't worth the bandwidth. But here it goes.
Say it's 20 years from now, and the SAS is finally finished, with a connection through to the Bronx for a yard. The time comes to redo the signals and track on the Jerome Avenue Line. Why not extend the SAS north out of the yard to recapture the Jerome Avenue Line? You'd just have to shave back the platforms and you'd have the same capacity you do now with 8 car trains, since the cars are wider. Extend the platforms on the Jerome Avenue to 600 feet and capacity is way up.
The line could go underground, for an easier connection to the Concourse at 16st Street station (just one flight of stairs), then rise to the elevated structure north of 161st. In exchange for a new line with larger and more comfortable cars, Jerome Avenue riders would have to stop at 3 more stops to Midtown, and 8 more to Lower Manhattan. But for destinations on the far east side, or in Times Square (via the Q), the ride would be faster. You'd be removing most of the 80,000 passengers per day on the Jerome, and some existing transferees from the Concourse, in addition to those the existing proposed line would remove from the Lex -- many of the 200,000 passengers on the Upper East Side and some transefees at 125th.
The #4, meanwhile, could relay north of 149th. Perhaps the station at 161st could be kept for gameday, if Yankee Stadium were to stay where it is. The #4 and #5 could become the locals, with the #6 the express. No doubt the Lex would refill, given its location right in the heart of the business district, but with far more elbow room than before.
As I said, this would be SAS phase 6, in the distant future. Worth a thought, however, if the Bronx wanted it.
In which case he's showing a lot of creativity.
Here's the list of the IRT lines that can and can't handle BMT/IND cars. I posted it before, but can't find the link, but I still had the word document I used to type the post when I posted it here, so I copy and pasted that:
Hre are the IRT sections that can handle BMT/IND trains after shaving off a little bit from the platforms:
-Lexinton Line North of Grand Central (including GC).
-7th Ave Line South of Times Square (including TS, and excluding South Ferry station).
-All of the Bronx Els, except the West Farms portion of the 2/5 line (The White Plains Line north of E180 and the Dyre Line can handle it).
-The entire Queens portion of the 7 Line - ***See Below. (excluding the Stienway tunnels and the Manhattan portion of the line).
-The 2/3 line from Chambers to Borough Hall, including the Clark Street tunnel.
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including the Livonia El to New Lots, and the Flatbush Line)
So in summary, THESE are the lines (below) that mess up the IRT, and banish it to narrow cars - relatively a small part of the IRT:
The Contract 1 and 2 lines which include:
-The 7th Ave-Broadway Line North of Times Square to 242 Street
-The 3 line from 96th to Lenox
-The 2 line from 135th to East 180th Street
-The Lexington line south of Grand Central (including South Ferry, which was originally built as part of the Contract 2 portion of what is now the Lexington Line)
-The Joraleman (4/5) tunnel under the River to Atlantic Ave
-The 42nd Street Shuttle
Finally:
The 7 Line from Times Square to Vernon Jackson
**Note the only part I'm not sure about is the underground portion of the 7 line from Vernon Jackson to Queens Plaza. Someone else will have to finish one of the lists with that information.
You could get 20% of those 30.7% of added space "simply" by lengthening IRT trains to 12 cars and without widening a single tunnel. This lengthening is also needed to run 10 car IND trains.
Unfortunately the one place where the lengthening is prohibitively expensive is where it is needed most, namely Grand Central on the 4/5/6.
Too bad that would be very costly to fix!
Clark Street and its approaches may have been dual contracts, but they certainly don't SEEM like they are built to IND-BMT specs. Not with those curves.
From- Pelham Bay Park
To- 81st Museum of Natural History
Self attempted this trip last weekend.... curious if you folks can
come up with a BETTER connection than the 1 I took... (NO Buses, please).
I'll tell you what I took later... first for the suggestions.
How would YOU get from Pelham Bay to Museum of Natural History?
But, YOU might not like this way as you would have to look at Yankee stadium.
Peace,
ANDEE
Too many transfers, and the unreliable C, to boot. It's a short ride on the M79 from Lex to CPW, and traffic isn't bad on weekends. 6 to 77th, walk two short blocks north, and transfer to the M79, even if you don't like buses.
Peace,
andee
6 to 77th St.
79th St bus to 81st and CPW.
You didn't say it had to be all subway. No way you can beat this for time.
Yes he did, he said no buses.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd say fastest w/o buses outside of rush hour is 6 to TSQ shuttle to C.
True. But I guess it depends on the weather. Lex/77 to AMNH is 0.95 mi outdoors plus detours because you can't walk straight across the park.
6 to shuttle to C is about 0.45 mi walking, but all the walking is out of the weather. I'd do the latter if the weather was really miserable. If the weather was so-so I'd take the bus. If the weather was good and I had the time I'd walk across the park.
My suggestion would be take the 6 to 51st Street, change to the E going one stop to 7th Avenue, then take the uptown B to 81st Street.
Not exactly the quickest ride but it's one way of getting there.
IINM, there is no weekend B.
Therefore, you'd need a C train. Can you transfer from a Downtown E train to an Uptown C train at 50th St?
And the transfer at 42nd is at the far rear end of the SB platform, while at Lex he'd be arriving at the front.
6 to E to D to C is too many transfers, and the way 7th Avenue is laid out, it's impossible to tell from the E if a D is arriving right then, since the D is downstairs.
Just ride the bus and be done with it.
Yet another reason a weekend 6th Avenue - CPW local service would be of value.
Why does the D train run on weekends, not the B train?
Because ridership on the weekends on Central Park West do not warrant having two local services operating. At one time the B did run on weekends on CPW, but when the tracks on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge were closed a few years ago, weekend service was halted as well.
Perhaps when the bridge fully opens this February weekend 6th Ave/CPW service will be restored.
James isn't asking why both the B and the D don't run on weekends. He's asking why the D runs rather than the B.
Weekend ridership patterns don't warrant four CPW services, but they also don't warrant two CPW express services. Compare the loads on the D to the loads on the C on weekends. Also look at how many SB C passengers have to get off at 59th to transfer to the D.
At one time the B did run on weekends on CPW, but when the tracks on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge were closed a few years ago, weekend service was halted as well.
The B ran on CPW on weekends for less than a year, because it had nowhere else to go, with 63rd Street connector work nearing completion.
With the Columbus Circle rehab coming up, running four CPW services on weekends won't be a realistic option, even if ridership were greater. The only question is whether the breakdown of the three services should be two express and one local or one express and two local. I don't think we should be relying on 30's ridership patterns, as some have proposed. Let's take a look at ridership patterns in 2003 and decide where to go from there.
That would be nonsense. Two locals, both to 8th Avenue, one express, the only service to 6th Avenue. A far more rational setup would be to have local access to both 6th and 8th Avenues and make the A train the express. This would also be easier on crews as the A train is one of the longest runs in the system.
But they get huge amounts of negative publicity every time they make a change since the people who are annoyed complain like it's the end of the world, while the people who benefit don't say a word.
So why get all that bad publicity? It's so much easier to do nothing!
Probably the same is going on with the 9 train.
Some sorts of changes require public hearings. This sort of change does not. NYCT should implement the service pattern that is best for its overall ridership.
David! You are truly a mensch! You are advocating for other Subtalkers to make their opinions known to MTA! I will assume you have already sent an email yourself.
I offer my sincere respects to you, sir. You've become an activist. Good for you, and good for the subway.
May you have a good holiday season!
Of course this should take the MTA too long to do, although the tracks would have to go west after 49th Street, and people would have to accept local Broadway Service, of course the (W) would go express on CPW.
False statement. Here's why:
1) In the Bronx, the #4 train only has two tracks the middle track is unused). The Concourse line has a peak direction express track available.
2) Station spacing on the SAS is long enough so that the express doesn't matter a whole lot. The express run from 125th Street to 86th Street is nice, but as David Greenberger pointed out, you only save 30 seconds per skipped station this way.
Plus, the SAS track will be better for high-speed running. The trains will run faster than the Lex local, and the run from 86th to 72nd Street will have a higher MAS than the Lex.
The Jerome Express Track is usable if they thought there was a need for it, and current ridership doesn't warrant it. Yes the Concourse line has a peak direction track available currently in use, Jerome has the track perfectly available if ridership warranted it to be used.
I remember threads on Subtalk where opinions were offered that the Jerome Express stations were not seen as offering useful express service, that a Bronx thru express 4 train would stop at the wrong places. Do you agree or disagree with that (I am unsure myself)?
But that is probably not true for the Concourse line (since the express track is well-used).
Well here's a rundown on the Jerome El:
-Woodlawn (E*) - 1,359,359** - Rank 258 in system
-Mosholu Pkwy (L) - 2,194,486 - Rank 173 in system
-Bedford Park Blvd (L) - 1,218,431 - Rank 282
-Kingsbridge Rd (L) - 2,287,300 - Rank 166
-Fordham Rd (L) - 2,803,460 - Rank 129
-183 St (L) - 1,523,091 - Rank 231
-Burnside Ave - (E) - 2,699,242 - Rank 136
-176 St - (L) - 1,377,562 - Rank 255
-Mount Eden - (L) - 1,396,568 - Rank 291
-170 St - (L) - 2,069,091 - Rank 182
-167 St - (L) - 2,287,300 - Rank 168
-161 St/Yankee - (L) - 6,403,511 - Rank 47
*Local/Express, **annual passenger count for 2000
You have two express stations on the line, one of which is the second least used station on the line and the terminal station, Woodlawn. Granted the other one, Burnside, is a well used station, but you would have relatively empty Express trains leaving Woodlawn, and passing two of the busiest stations on the line before getting to Burnside. Then Express again to Grand Concourse, passing two 3 more busy stations, 167 and 170 (and Yankee Stadium, the most used station on the el, but of course that one is skewed because it is a transfer station, and not your typical ridership patterns because of the stadium - but it is a local station none the less).
So in summary, you would have sort of an Astoria El fiasco on the Jerome el if they tried to run express service there, fairly empty express trains and extremely overcrowded locals. Unless Mosholu and Fordham were converted to express stations (a not worth the return expense), it simply wouldn't work on the Jerome El.
One of the things that make the make the Concourse work is the express stations are better spaced (probably because the the Jerome El was built in more of a wilderness, and the Concourse was built after ridership patterns changed, as it was an established neighborhood. Ridership patterns are probably similar for both lines, and without looking at the actual stats for the Concourse, the express stations are placed more or less where the higher used Jerome stations are located (Fordham Rd, Kingsbridge Road, Trement-near Burnside on the 4, and it skips the low useage areas). By the time the Concourse nears the other busy areas (167-170 stations), the expresses are already full, so it's no big deal that they are skipped. That is why it works on the Concourse. Express service would not work on the Jerome El, and this comes from me, who is an "express fanatic".
This makes the T Concourse service worth pursuing.
Ahhhhhhhhhh! But express service isn't needed on Jerome anyway and Concourse doesn't need three services (B, D, and T). Concourse's ridership statistics are very similar to Jerome's. In fact, almost identical figures. The funny thing is one station will be busier on Jerome, and then the next station will be busier on Concourse. (For example, Kingsbridge Rd is slightly busier on Jerome, but Fordham is slightly busier on Concourse). The same is true for most of the stations, so they sort of average out. If 1 service is sufficient on Jerome, then 2 services are more than adequate on Concourse (and good because the express works nicely there as the express stations are more or less the busier stations.
Not the point, actually. Bronx riders could use better choices (meaning more destinations, which adding the T would accomplish). Bronx pols need something they can show their constituents (this is good enough) Also, taking people off the 4 makes more seats available later, in Manhattan, and reduces crowding. That's actually more important than whether or not the Concourse needs or doesn't need additional service (irrelevant to this discussion anyway).
One other note: The Concourse T can also pull passengers off the 5 train, although not nearly as many because it is further away from that line. But if you're arriving by bus from Westchester, or you're taking a bus to either the 4 or 5 subway, you could go to the Concourse and take the T instead.
Congratulations, Ron! You've just won the Subtalk Stretch of the Year Award.
The problem is that my award was selected by someone who can't read a map, among other things.
Irrelevant? Doesn't this whole discussion have to do with increasing service to the Concourse Line and whether or not it is necessary to have a third service there from 2nd Ave?
But actually, you could argue reasonably that, from the point of view of destination choice from a given line, the Bronx still has too little service.
For example, the Concourse used to offer both 6th Av-bound and 8th-Av bound service (C and D). When the C was pulled off the Concourse, riders lost that choice. SAS T service would give them another choice back, albeit a different one to a brand new set of destinations
PM Rush
125 St
149 St
161 St
167 St
Burnside Av
Moshulu Pkwy
Woodlawn
The city run subway system is against the IRT and BMT folks. That's why they don't have an express on the #4 line. Think about it.
N Broadway (BMT MAN!)
PS: What ever happened to that middle express track on the J Line.. USE IT MTA! Stop discriminating!!!
that's what you think! Since I'm an express man... I want to pass some stations. And the T in this case is not good enough for me.
N Broadway
False statement again. Look at your Manhattan bus map. South of 42nd Street, the Lex subway shifts westward to Park Avenue. The SAS is the only game in town for long stretches of the East Side.
What I find most interesting about your post is that you argue the opposite of other posters here: if I read you right, you're saying that having the Q train running up the Concourse would be better than T train service. Is that what you're saying?
I live VERY close to a proposed SAS stop in the East Village, and I'm all in favor of it, but even I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that the SAS will bring the subways closer to many people there.
If you happen to live EXACTLY at 12th St and 2nd Ave, the SAS will reduce the distance to the nearest subway by 1/4 mile. For everyone else, the reduction will be less. For almost everyone in the East Village and Lower East Side, there will be NO reduction in the distance to the nearest subway station. If you live at Ave D and 10th St, you're still going to take a bus (which is actually relatively decent, though it sometimes does hang up in traffic).
Remember, there are already subway entrances at Astor Place, 1st Ave and 14th, Houston at 1st and 2nd Ave, Grand/Chrystie, Delancey/Essex, Delancey between Chrystie and Bowery, and East Broadway. These serve the East Village and Lower East Side well for the most part, and the SAS won't help those that these stops don't serve well.
Below Canal the situation is similar. A stop at Chatham Square will again bring the subway 1/4 mile or so closer to people who live exactly there, but the Canal St and East Broadway subways are not too far away for most people in the area.
"For almost everyone in the East Village and Lower East Side, there will be NO reduction in the distance to the nearest subway station."
True but misleading. If you want to ride northbound on the East Side you will have to change trains at least once. The SAS eliminates that and reduces crowding and delays for everyone.
" If you live at Ave D and 10th St, you're still going to take a bus (which is actually relatively decent, though it sometimes does hang up in traffic)."
If it were up to me, perhaps I would have shifted the SAS further east as it went south of the L train. Would that have hurt connections or the destinations SAS riders want?
True but misleading. If you want to ride northbound on the East Side you will have to change trains at least once. The SAS eliminates that and reduces crowding and delays for everyone.
Not in the least bit misleading. I was not addressing the value of the SAS as a whole to the Lower East Side, which is considerable.
I was addressing a specific statement, namely that "there are no trains" on the Lower East Side. That statement is partially false, and I explained why, to the extent it is true, the SAS won't really help. If he had said that the SAS will reduce multi-seat subway rides to single seat rides, I would have wholeheartedly concurred.
Competition vs Alternative.. Is that right?
Well.. from a passenger perspective, what ever that is closer to their destination is what they are going to use. I don't see it as a competition.. I see it as a convenient way to use the transportation system. If it was two separate companies, than I might say the second avenue would be a competitor.
N Bwy
This link will open it's own window: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/6574479.htm
Article Text:
----------------------------------------
Posted on Wed, Aug. 20, 2003
New Yorkers are anomalies amid auto-loving Americans
By Michael Powell
WASHINGTON POST
NEW YORK - As America has long suspected, no one here can drive.
Lawyers, doctors, day laborers, actors, psychotherapists: New York City has more able-bodied, nonlicensed, car-phobic adults than anywhere in the United States. Approximately 25 percent of the inhabitants possess a driver's license.
Caroline Hwang, 33, a novelist and editor, is one of New York's carless millions. She lives in Manhattan and walks, hails cabs and uses her subway card. She packs her beach towel and takes the Long Island Rail Road to the Atlantic Ocean beaches and bums a ride when friends insist on one of those bucolic weddings north of the Bronx. As a teenager in Wisconsin she had a license, but that seems so yesterday.
"I asked my boyfriend recently if I could sit in the driver's seat. I couldn't remember which was the accelerator and which was the brake," she recalled. "I feel like New York City is set up for people like me."
Bill Bastone runs TheSmokingGun.com, a whimsical investigative Web site. He grew up in Jackson Heights, Queens, a couple of blocks from the elevated No. 7 train, which rolls right into Manhattan. He went to New York University and worked for the Village Voice. He neglected to take driver's education in high school, and that was destiny. He is 42 and does not have a learner's permit.
"I don't remember dreams, as a rule, but the only ones I do recall are about out-of-control auto wrecks," he said. "So maybe I need to sit down and talk to someone about this."
Or maybe this car-and-license thing is more proof that New York floats somewhere off the East Coast. For most Americans, the car -- the Mustang, the Bronco -- packs as much iconic wallop as a horse for John Wayne. But not here -- in New York, you are defined by the IND, BMT or the IRT trains. When electricity failed last week, those carless commuters were left with only foot power.
New Yorkers plan work and play around their inability to drive. They vacation on Fire Island, because no cars are allowed. They tend to travel east to London, Paris or any other European city with a good subway system instead of heading west, say, to Utah or Wyoming or Nevada, all of which have long highways and no Yellow Taxis.
Ask Jimmy Breslin, this city's most famous newspaper columnist, why he does not drive. The 74-year-old Newsday writer begins: "I started out at a house on 101st Avenue in Queens and right there the Q-8 bus stopped. The A-train was over at Liberty Avenue. I mean, a car? There was no need. The transportation was wondrous.
"Besides," he added, "I worked the night shift at the Long Island Press, and I needed to save my extra (cash) for beer."
SEIU Local 32 BJ went looking recently for a few good labor organizers to unionize custodians in the wilds of New Jersey and Long Island. All refused.
"They simply don't drive," noted Richard Schrader, a union consultant. "I had one guy, a great prospect, but when he gets off the bus in Glen Cove, where's he going?"
Driving in New York is not natural. Periodically, the men and women at the city Department of Transportation measure the average speed of a car traveling across midtown, which they invariably find moving at the rate of a Galapagos tortoise. Then there are other problems: alternate side of the street parking, rapacious meter maids, $100 parking tickets, exorbitant insurance rates, incomprehensible and contradictory highway signs and the fact that no car in New York ever stays in its lane.
"It's bad enough to sit in the back of a taxi and watch," Bastone notes. "Who wants to be part of that?"
Even romance bends to a license-less rhythm. Chris Policano, 42, serves as chief spokesman for the City Council. A decade or so back, he asked his beloved to marry him. She said yes, but set a condition: He must obtain his driver's license.
"I'd had learner's permits, many, many permits," he recalls. "But scheduling the road test was so daunting. There was that parallel parking thing."
As it turned out, Policano took his road test along the Brooklyn docks in a blizzard. The test officer wanted to get home and said to skip the parking. So Policano is a licensed driver. But that fact has not transformed his life. "You know," he said, "it's a lot easier to say 'Taxi!'"
Jeri Drucker grew up on Manhattan's Upper West Side, a regional hot spot for the driving-challenged. She is planning her son's wedding on the far side of the Delaware Water Gap. It is a logistical nightmare. Her sisters do not drive, nor do her adult nieces or her uncle. Her stepsister drove in Los Angeles once, but she moved back to New York and gave that up.
Drucker plans to rent something akin to a school bus to haul her family out there.
"My father had a license," she said, "but that was a long, long time ago, and he never drove. Maybe this is inherited?"
In this unlicensed wilderness, the city's hundreds of auto schools hang shingles like lanterns for the auto-phobic. As Ira, an instructor at the Bensonhurst Driving School, said of himself, "I'm not a teacher, I'm a psychotherapist."
There is the man who has had learner's permits for 17 years and comes in each April for a lesson or two before he decides he cannot handle it and disappears. And there are legions of 58-year-old accountants and 62-year-old lawyers who see retirement approaching and start thinking Boca Raton, Fla., and Tucson, Ariz., if only they could drive.
"We have 75- and 80-year-old students," said Wilma Valenzuela of the Professional Driving School on East 23rd Street in Manhattan. "They always ask, 'Do I drive right away?' I say, 'Not if you haven't driven before, you don't!'"
Some drivers come in for late spring tuneups. They have licenses but have never used them and now need to get to the Hamptons. "We take them to a quiet street, sip a cup of tea and let them ease into it," said Elizabeth Lim of the Grand Prix Driving School.
All of which is very nice. But as this is New York, a tincture of belligerence can sneak into conversations with the license-less. As in, "Why should I drive?"
M.P. Dunleavey, an editor and Manhattan native, recalls relatives poking fun at her for being thirty-something and not having a license. "I didn't think it was funny," she said. "There was something gauche about having a car. It was so -- suburban."
Joe Dunlap, 34, has spiraled through the city as a bike messenger, traveled the world and now is studying to get his master's degree in education. Someday, maybe, he will get a license.
"If I get bored and I'm like 50," he said. "I just might do it."
Stranger things have happened in New York.
I wonder how I'll be able to teach my children to drive. The insurance for new drivers in New York City is prohibitive, almost as much as the cost of college. And driving in the city makes no sense, so there is no reason to practice. Yet it is hard to function in the rest of the USA without being able to drive. It if was built after 1950, you can't get there without using a car.
Insurance, tickets, $2 gas, maintenance, occasional vandalism or robberies, reckless drivers all in a hurry to go nowhere fast, road rage, on and on and on. One guy that I know who has a car pays a total of $1000 a month for his car. $400 for the note and $600 for insurance (his driving record went to pot). Talk about a waste.
As long as I live near a subway, I will NOT own a car. I'll just "bum" rides.
Guess again. Brooklyn is as well served by subway and bus as Manhattan. The % of people not using cars is very high. Bronx residents, esp. the less affluent, historically had trouble affording cars. Why put up with the burden of a car if all your payment problems, the repo man, insurance, gas and oil, the car wash, when the TA takes care of all of that?
Guess again.
Alex's data in another post suggests that Steve is right. Car ownership is about 25% in Manhattan but considerably higher in the other boroughs. And the article was about licenses, not registrations. Many people have a license but don't own a car; very few own a car but don't have a license.
Mark
Manhattan car ownership rates are about 25% of households.
So it's possible. Likely? I don't know. I found it surprising when I saw the article last month, but I don't have enough information to conclusively knock it down.
They almost certainly confused Manhattan with NYC.
Always possible. They may also have divided the number of automobiles by the population. Our household has one automobile and four people, hence 25 percent.
In any event, as the census shows, somewhat more than half of all NYC households have access to motor vehicles. NYC transit surveys indicate that about half of all subway riders also have automobiles. Automobile ownership is correlated with income and family type. Singles and couples tend not to have them, families have them if they are middle class and up.
In this country, sometimes you need a car. Therefore, if cars were easier to rent less people would feel the need to own one, and some trips which are now taken by auto would be taken by transit.
It doesn't help matters that car rental rates in the NY metro area are the highest in the country. Next time you see an advertisement by a nationwide auto rental company, touting its low rates and special deals, check the fine print. You'll usually find an exclusion for NY.
Anyway, here's an example: PhillyCarShare
I have half a mind to sell my money pit of a car and sign up myself.
Mark
As a result of all the demand, New York is one of the few markets where prices are higher on the weekends. Usually they are higher on weekdays, since rental cars are for business travelers. Car rental costs are also inflated by a scarcity of land, which increases costs for car rental companies.
But there is also a self-inflicted wound -- the vicarious liability law. In New York, if a rented car is used in any way does any harm to anyone, the car rental company is responsible. Thus if someone in the Bronx rents a car and uses it to commit a robbery, the car rental company is responsible for any and all harm a jury agrees exists, including economic losses, mental anguish, etc. That cost is spread among all rental car customers.
Leasing companies face similar liability. As a result, most of the major companies such as GMAC and Ford Credit won't do leases in New York State anymore, although they can make more or less equivalent financing arrangements through loans with balloon payments. Talk about an absurd law.
Actually, there must be somthing distinctly NYC-related about this issue.
- Albany's car rental rates are the same as Seattle's. So the NYS vicarious liability law doesn't seem to have a direct effect.
- Some comapnies at Newark charge MORE to people who arrive locally than those who arrive by plane.
I think in Manhattan the issue is partly the high cost of garaging the cars. IN the NYC area in general, there is probably also an issue that NYC drivers are more reckless on average than drivers nationally, not because most are bad, but because of a core of bad apples. (Couldn't resist the mixed metaphor there.)
Mark
See my other post. Watch out for companies that charge more to people who arrive locally than by plane.
Higher rates for local renters are not uncommon. According to the car rental companies, locals are considered more likely to abuse the vehicles. I don't know whether there statistical evidence or it's basically just a stereotype.
I have heard that some motels do the same in certain parts of the country.
Peace,
ANDEE
For a brief period, Continental Express was running a regional jet flight from HPN (Westchester Co.) to EWR.
Good point - when I was younger (in the UK admittedly) my wife and I didn't own a car but rented one when we needed one. We only gave in and bought one when we had children - even then we waited a while, but the problem was that you couldn't rent cars with child safety seats fitted in those days.
But why "if cars were easier to rent.."? In my experience, renting cars in the USA is very easy - at least as long as you are over 25 with a clean license. Even a UK Driving Licence (as opposed to a US Driver's License) will do!
New York is tougher. Car rental rates are much higher, and on weekends the cars often sell out.
New York Times login required
This link will open it's own window: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/20/nyregion/20TRAN.html?ex=1064721600&en=a76bf8d74875b578&ei=5070
Article Text:
----------------------------------------
Masses in Transit, to Anywhere but Work
June 20, 2002
By RANDY KENNEDY
It has been many years since the image of New York City's
transit system was one of a crumbling and dangerous place
used with grim determination only by those who had no
better way to get to work.
But a study of newly released transit data from the 2000
census has found a remarkable reversal: with the huge
improvements to subway and bus service in the last decade
and discounts introduced for riding it, mass transit is now
used less frequently as a way to go to work than it is to
go everywhere else in the city: shopping, eating, to the
beach or to see your grandmother in the Bronx.
The trend is one that transit officials have long seen in
their own statistics, with weekend ridership climbing
rapidly in the last several years and many subway stations
crammed even in the middle of the night. In the 1990's,
that kind of growth helped push subway ridership up by 34
percent and bus ridership by 27 percent, and combined bus
and subway weekday ridership topped seven million last
year.
But the census numbers show exactly how profound the shift
has been in New Yorkers' perceptions about mass transit as
a reliable and cheap way to go not just where they need to
go but also where they want to go.
Bus and subway ridership for nonwork trips - shopping,
recreation and personal business - increased by a
surprising 62 percent in the 1990's, according to the
analysis by Bruce Schaller, a consultant on urban
transportation issues, who examined the census numbers,
along with other transit statistics. By contrast,
work-related trips on mass transit increased by 6.7
percent.
As a result of that divergence, work trips now account for
less than half of all subway and bus trips, dropping to
44.1 percent in 2000 from 54.5 percent in 1990.
The shift helps explain why transit ridership has continued
to increase in 2002 despite falling employment in New York
City in the last year, Mr. Schaller said.
But more significantly, it shows that the city seems to be
in the midst of a return to the kind of relationship it had
with mass transit several decades ago, before the Robert
Moses era and the rise of the automobile.
"What has happened here is that the transit system has
essentially been reincorporated back into people's life
outside of work," Mr. Schaller said.
"You would have to look back to the 40's and 50's, I think,
to find the last time it was like that." (In fact, he
pointed out, the car was long such a minor player in city
transportation that until 1950, it was illegal to park
overnight in Manhattan.)
While the rebuilding of much of the subway system and the
purchase of new trains and buses has made mass transit
cleaner and more reliable,
Mr. Schaller said that probably the strongest motivator
moving people back to transit was the MetroCard, which was
introduced in 1994 and began to offer discounts in 1998.
Now, according to New York City transit officials, 40
percent of MetroCard users buy one-day, 7-day or 30-day
unlimited cards, which can reduce the price of their trips
to significantly below the $1.50 fare if used frequently.
Mr. Schaller believes that the unlimited cards have
transformed the mental calculations New Yorkers make when
they think about mass transit, especially for discretionary
trips.
"You don't think about a trip costing something in the way
that you thought with a token," he said. "There's this
sense of freedom now that you can hop on a bus to go just
10 blocks and you don't feel like you're getting ripped
off."
Regional transit figures show that, five years ago, the
frequency of trips of any kind - by car or mass transit,
even by foot - were relatively low in the city compared
with the suburbs, probably because of differences in the
way suburbanites and city dwellers perceived the cost and
ease of traveling.
If the tank had gas in it, a hop in the car for a quick
spin to the suburban mall could feel as if it cost nothing.
Driving was more difficult in the city, however, and subway
and buses had a definite cost that, even though small,
could discourage a whim to travel. The MetroCard, Mr.
Schaller said, has changed that.
"The way you can look at it is that there was a kind of
pent-up demand for travel in the city that's now able to
express itself," he said.
That kind of expression, on subways and buses, has been
considered a major public policy victory in New York,
undoubtedly good for the environment and one that other
cities are trying to emulate.
The downside is that, even though transit service has been
increased significantly on the weekends and in off-peak
hours in the last several years, it has yet to catch up
with the demand in many parts of the system.
As Mr. Schaller put it, "It's always hard to find a seat on
the subway during the rush, but now it can be hard to find
one on Sunday mornings, literally."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/20/nyregion/20TRAN.html?ex=1065674621&ei=1&en=a786846b9be43738
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I think part of this may be a generational thing. The anti-transit generation is dying off, or already living elsewhere. What you have moving into the city is immigrants who can't drive and young people who don't want to.
I have just been looking at some data on New York City's share of the Metro Area population by age. It is a high share for those in their 20s, and for children under age 5, but a low share beginning for school age children and their parents age 35 to 50. Go back ten or 20 years, and you can see that the parents who are out of the city today were in the city before they had children.
This corresponds to what I see in my own life, and those around me. The transit system, and the ability to walk to things, pulls people into the city. The school system, and the shortage of family-sized housing units that people can afford, drives them out.
SEPTA will be single-tracking the R8 Fox Chase line rather than using two tracks. If I recall correctly SEPTA will own that track and take its trains off CSX-owned adjacent tracks on the premise that if CSX continues to be responsible for dispatching SEPTA trains, service will suffer and costs increase.
But SEPTA is taking heat from DVARP and other critics who say that single-tracking will hrt service and ridership. As it is the R8 line was cut back from Newtown (also single-track, right, and not electrified?) and this will, they say really put service in the toilet.
So what do you guys think. I there room in the ROW to build a second track with catenary for SEPTA, so SEPTA could own both tracks? I realize there probably isn't budget to do that.
The R8 is only double track from CP-NEWTON JCT to CP-CHELTENHAM JCT which is like a mile or two. I think the bigger problem is probably SEPTA having to either pay or deal with or pay lateness penalties to CSX to have that part of the line shared with R8's.
Check out this website, you can see the CSX Trenton Line on the bottom of both boards boards.
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030202.html
But I'm not sure who's right here. I figure you'd know a lot more.
The most up to date issues are not on-line, but this R8 story has been going on for a long time, so you'll see it in previous editions. Click on the newsletter hyperlink.
Will 30 minute service be effectively eliminated by single-tracking?
Far as I know, Septa rush hour service will not really be effected due to the short distance involved. Septa trains can cover the newly single-tracked portion in 5 or 6 minutes. I've seen on some other boards where Septa employee-fans said the only problem they can forsee is with a couple rush hour deadhead trains being slightly effected.
The problem with the Trenton Line in NJ is that it is single track with only a single, short, passing siding. The RoW is 3-4 tracks in places and if NJT got money to upgrade the line to 2 or 3 tracks there would be plenty of room for both CSX and NJT. I mean NJT shares the tracks with both CSX and NS on the Lehigh Line between CP-ALDENE and NK.
CSX needs to get its act together scheduling wise. If they had some compotency, avoiding the rush-hour curfews wouldn't be a problem. SEPTA really needs to fight this. Trackage rights are administered by the FRA and if one wants to hold onto them they are nearly impossible to force off.
Is there a link to the CSX/R8 planning maps??
This is clearly an Union issue. CSX ain't that stupid -- they aren't going to open themselves up to litigation by putting some guy there who work for them, and gives safety-sensitive signals without having first checked that it is clear. Flagman and supervisor are probably required by the Union, and the CSX guy is simply there to operate a CSX radio (can't use a RR radio unless you're an RR employee).
they had good quotes from officials describing what it's like to talk with CSX ("backroom bullies")
CSX is actually doing its job. Transit authorities are notorious for wanting to use private facilities for little or no money, because they claim it is "in the public good". In most cases, the cost-benefit is marginal.
AEM7
Jersey Mike, thanks for the map, now i can spot the area in question.
Hope I'm not breaking some type of copyright law by making it easier than to click a link. :/
Well, I sure don't mind people seeing my pictures :-), but I do strongly prefer (in general) clickable links rather than "hotlinking". It's less work for my server if it has to serve only those people who really want to see the pictures, rather than everybody who happens to read a posting. Since I'm mooching off my employer's network resources, I don't want to interfere with legitimate uses, such as students downloading MP3s. ;-)
With this board it's less of an issue than with most, because you can view only one posting at a time. I've had to configure our server to block linking from boards that show a whole thread all at once, because a hotlink can generate floods of hits. Whenever they link to one of my pictures, they get
You typed:
"they get < a href="http:/web.presby.edu/neumann.jpg>this< /a > instead."
Of course, that little aspect of it didn't occur to me until after I (almost gleefully) posted my lil' lesson. Nuff said.
It's funny how sites I used to look at for so long, apparently all the webmasters hang here. Never expected it.
I just post a representative sample. Especially now that I have a digital camera, I tend to fire off lots of shots and cherry-pick them afterwards. I'm still organizing the pictures from my big summer trip to the Midwest and archiving them onto CDs. I ended up taking over a thousand pictures in three weeks. This weekend I might finally put the first new page from that trip on line: the Johnstown Inclined Plane.
Hope I'm not breaking some type of copyright law by making it easier than to click a link. :/
Well, I sure don't mind people seeing my pictures :-), but I do strongly prefer (in general) clickable links rather than "hotlinking". It's less work for my server if it has to serve only those people who really want to see the pictures, rather than everybody who happens to read a posting. Since I'm mooching off my employer's network resources, I don't want to interfere with legitimate uses, such as students downloading MP3s. ;-)
With this board it's less of an issue than with most, because you can view only one posting at a time. I've had to configure our server to block linking from boards that show a whole thread all at once, because a hotlink can generate floods of hits. Whenever they link to one of my pictures, they get this instead.
[snip]
Whenever they link to one of my pictures, they get this instead.
(I should've waited a bit longer before pouring that Scotch. Or at least hit the "Preview Message" button.)
These are from the Eastpenn Rail Page at http://www.trainweb.org/eastpenn/
I hung around that crossing for a while, casing it from various angles and taking pictures, as well as riding through it, of course. I never actually saw anybody outside there. Are those three guys all sitting together in the trailer, or what?
A supervisor waits at the crossing. Trolley approaches, stops, let super on. Super radios "tower". Tower gives the all clear(even though no one is in agreement as to what is clear and what it even means, but they still have to radio). Trolley crosses the crossing, stops and let's supervisor off for the next train.
It's ashame the Tampa Tribune is the only paper that makes you pay 2 bucks for stories older than 3 days, they get some good ones. :(
Now of course, SEPTA just installed a crappy ass dispatching system and their trains are getting stuck at signals all over the system, so it should have just been a run of the mill SNAFU.
I know that there are dead-head moves to FC, but I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be a window for a freight to get through for 3 hours. Both tracks 1 and 2 are Rule 261 and because a dead-head dosen't need to make station stops it could have been wrong-railed on 1 if a freight was fouling 2.
The electrification was needed because it was a faster way to downtown than taking a PTC bus and the EL, and ridership was increasing. The money for the project came from SEPACT, a predecessor of SEPTA, IIRC.
Prior to SEPTA taking over the operation, the rush hour schedule called for trains operating approximately every 18-19 minutes. This was time needed for a train to "clear" Cheltenham Jct., operate the single track to Fox Chase, turn, and come back south and again "clear" Cheltenham Jct.
Back in the late 1960's and 1970's there was pretty good ridership. With the change in neighborhoods and the job situation downtown, I'm sure the ridership on the Fox Chase portion of the R8 is down from its former glory.
A Reading engineer friend of mine said he'd make five mid-day Fox Chase trips instead of two or three Chestnut Hill trips. The Chestnut Hill was 10.8 miles, and made up to 15 stops, vs. the 11.1 miles to Fox Chase making only eight station stops. Making a "Hill" meant you did quite a bit of braking on the trip.
Single track will equal some delays, but I'm not sure what the headways are on the Fox Chase these days.
Jim K.
Chicago
This can lead to some serious operational problems. First, if there is some sort of service disruption, you're pretty much screwed. Second, and this is a REAL problem, if an outbound R8 has to wait for an inbound R8 to clear, where is it going to do it? If it sits at CP-NEWTON JCT its going to tie up the entire outbound SEPTA Main Line. That means the R's 1/2/3/5 will be piling up all the way back to WAYNE JCT. As it is now you can get the R8 trains OFF the main line before it has to sit and wait for a single track to clear.
The LIRR's West Hempstead branch is single track, but it branches off at VALLEY, where there exist multiple main and layup tracks for trains to pass a stranded WH bound train.
Here are some images of CP-NEWTOWN JCT. There used to be a connection from the single CSX track northbound to the inbound SEPTA track, but that was removed as there exists no way for the CSX train to get back on the Trenton Line.
BTW, one Philly fan emailed that he thought three hours was kinda long. Another (an R8 commuter btw) said absolutely three hours, the whole morning rush period. They both agreed there is a lot of friction between the Septa dispatchers and the CSX crews. That the freight crews claim, sometimes over the airwaves, that the Septa dispatchers frequently refuse to even acknowledge the CSX train that is calling, sometimes out of pure spite. In fact there was a problem this morning I'm told by a Philly fan who was monitoring his scanner. K277 arrived (at Cheltenham I guess) and called Septa several times without receiving a response. He said the CSX crewman then called back, sounding very annoyed and prefacing the call with the words, "K277, for THE FINAL TIME..." I think they had to have the CSX dispatcher call Septa on the phone in order to get their train cleared. Again, if you're familiar with everyday rail operations, incidents like this aren't as unusual as they might seem. (I'm no railroader, btw, just a fan, but I'm more interested in the 'human side' than with equipment or track diagrams, etc.) If anyone is interested I'll post more info as I get it. There are also at least two Septa employee-fans that regularly post on the board I'm referring to so hopefully they can give Septa's side of this.
Tommy
The immediate impact of a delay is worse for a passenger train than it is for a freight train. In the short run, a freight holding for 2-3 hours for passenger traffic doesn't hurt its cargo.
On the other hand, a 2 hour delay here, a 3 hour delay there, another 2 hours further down the line, and pretty soon the railroad misses a delivery contract's deadline, or a shipper doesn't want to use the railroad to move goods. I can understand CSX' concerns too.
In fact, there's an ongoing problem with some missed connections from NJT NECL trains to the R7 in Trenton. NEC trains are delayed waiting for the R7 to arrive, or else the Phila-NYC passengers must wait in Trenton for the next NECL to arrive, let alone depart... God forbid it ends up across the station. NJT blames SEPTA's slow running in Morrisville, SEPTA complains NJT is being unresonable about the connections they've worked out to keep for years.
Who's behind this? AMTRAK and their damn work in Morrisville. And they could care less. What gets me is why they can't just do their work AT NIGHT when the R7 isn't even running!
AMTRAK does nothing to increase running capacity between Newark and NYC. 2 tracks out of Penn until Secaucus Transfer, then two again until Newark. If there's peak hour bottlenecks, AMTRAK just makes NJT hold its NJCL and NECL trains until AMTRAK is finished getting THEIR trains through. And if any railroad commuter operation opens a station, they take over. They snagged Cornwells Heights as soon as the new Park/Ride opened, and they've been eyeing Franconia-Springfield on VRE. But it's a one platformer... wasn't Woodbridge enough? Thankfully, they aren't bothering Secaucus, as it has no real purpose to their services. But I can only wonder why Thorndale REALLY has the low-level with the high end on the oubound side... SETA hasn't spoken of plans to go past Thorndale, so it's likely AMTRAK wants a piece of it.
New Jersey's senators have asked for $5 billion to put in two new tracks to Penn Station. Want to help? Write your Member of Congress and support it.
"If there's peak hour bottlenecks, AMTRAK just makes NJT hold its NJCL and NECL trains until AMTRAK is finished getting THEIR trains through."
If I'm paying $50 for my Amtrak ticket, and you're paying $5 for your NJ Transit ticket, who do you really think should have priority?
"And if any railroad commuter operation opens a station, they take over. They snagged Cornwells Heights as soon as the new Park/Ride opened, and they've been eyeing Franconia-Springfield on VRE."
Fabulous. It's great that those stations now have both commuter rail and Amtrak service. Passengers win.
Amtrak isn't screwing anybody. But as long as you enjoy posting nonsense, I guess it doesn't matter.
Would, but my representation has nothing to do with NJ's problems... I'm from Philly, or didn't you know that? (I've mentioned it a few times before) I doubt what Pennsylvania state representatives have to say about the tunnels to Penn Station matters much.
If I'm paying $50 for my Amtrak ticket, and you're paying $5 for your NJ Transit ticket, who do you really think should have priority?
I'll take that one... but not for NJCL trains, as AMTRAK doesn't serve as an alternate mode of travel to/from Bay Head/Long Branch. They can't hold their train for ONE NJCL? The way I see it, The NJCL should have main priority, then AMTRAK, then NECL, since NECL trains and Amtrak are parallel all the way to Trenton.
And I didn't even BOTHER with MidTown DIRECT service. Although I'm not quite sure why they even bother with it either, my best guess is that Hobkoen Terminal has no wires, so they need someplace to send the electric equipment that runs from Hackettstown and Gladstone. Assuming Secaucus to have turnback capabilites, they could just terminate there to avoid tying up AMTRAK... but then, it causes inconvenience for the commuters.
Fabulous. It's great that those stations now have both commuter rail and Amtrak service. Passengers win.
My point is that AMTRAK wanted NO part of Cornwells Heights until AFTER PennDOT opened the park/ride lot, as part of their I-95 alternative project (still going on, as I-95 has heavy construction around Holmesburg right now), which they worked out with SEPTA. AMTRAK mentioned nothing about the addition of a new station to the Northeast Corrior for their trains, they just decided to start serving Cornwells Heights once the P/R opened. Before that, they had nothing to do with it. And Franconia-Springfield sat for years with only VRE usage (and WMATA's Blue Line when it opened, but that's something else) before Amtrak decided to add it to their Northeast Timetable... however, that was only in the listings, the actual schedule didn't include trains stopping there. Last I recall, they still weren't actually stopping there, but I haven't been to DC in over a year to actually check it out. And the last time I asked for a Northeast Timetable at 30th Street, they gave me the small pocket version and went back to talking amongst themselves. When I told them tis wasn't the schedule I needed, hey said "You said the Northeast Timetable, that's what we gave you. We're very busy now, please come back later." When I informed them I was after the magazine of Northeast trains, they FINALLY told me "Oh, we're out of them. We underestimated the need for them, and ordered less than we usually do for this location. Try in Washington or New York."
Lying bastards had a whole STACK of them under the desk. I saw it, but I decided not to start a fight, and my R3 train was due in a few minutes.
Amtrak isn't screwing anybody. But as long as you enjoy posting nonsense, I guess it doesn't matter.
I see you said nothing about their rail maintenance practices... the Morrisville issue... They KNOW people on the R7 are trying to either get home to Trenton from Philly, or connect in Trenton from R7 train to NJT Northeast Corridor Line. nd yet, they do their work when the R7 is running. Sometimes, I think Amtrak just doesn't care about the rail agencies that lease their tracks. Especially SEPTA/NJT. I'd almost go as far as to say they decided to do their maintenance during the day just to spite SEPTA and NJT because of people who prefer to take an R7 and a Northeast Corrirdor Line train to get from Philly to NYC instead of taking Amtrak's expensive service. In fact, my father used to travel to NYC on weekends for business meetings. He made enough money to take Amtrak, but said he preferred SEPTA/NJT because it saved money, AND was more enjoyable a ride than taking Amtrak. As such, I hope that MARC and SEPTA one day have a connection in Delaware, so I can get to DC without dealing with Amtrak; it costs so much that I can't really enjoy my stay there unless I decide to save FAR in advance (me, I'd rather be able to go weekly and ENJOY myself)
That's right. Amtrak's electric service needs wires.
"My point is that AMTRAK wanted NO part of Cornwells Heights until AFTER PennDOT opened the park/ride lot, as part of their I-95 alternative project (still going on, as I-95 has heavy construction around Holmesburg right now), which they worked out with SEPTA. AMTRAK mentioned nothing about the addition of a new station to the Northeast Corrior for their trains, they just decided to start serving Cornwells Heights once the P/R opened."
That's fine. Amtrak didn't have the money for that upgrade jpb, so PennDOT did it. It's tax money either way...who cares?
"Lying bastards had a whole STACK of them under the desk. I saw it, but I decided not to start a fight, and my R3 train was due in a few minutes. "
You're pissed at Amtrak because a station agent wouldn't give you a magazine? You need to get a life, dude.
As to the rest of your post, Do you know how much it costs to have repair crews do everything nights and weekends? Do yo think that Amtrak, cash-poor as it is, should be blowing its money that way?
How about something really radical (just for argument's sake): Have the FRA do what the FAA does: Tower and dispatch is performed by the FRA, not the railroad. Government rail traffic controllers take over from the private sector.
I invite you to criticize to your heart's content.
It also works the other way too. I have seen with mine own eyes, Metro-North delay two of their own rush hour trains (by holding them out of Stamford) in order to expedite a late-running, trying-to-make-up-time Acela Express train.
A good management decision.
Why bother. CSX has not made the cost of its capital in years. AEM7
BTW, another critical factor in handling CSX freights at CP Newtown in the early AM. A rail employee advises that no trains are stored overnight at Fox Chase, they all deadhead up from Roberts Yard near Wayne Jct.
That isn't a real reason why SEPTA can't own CSX. The real reason is that SEPTA wouldn't want to get saddled with a Freight operation that doesn't make money. There are little reason why citizens of Philadelphia cannot decide to purchase a railroad. The fact is, they have no reason to. AEM7
Your understanding of how the freight railroad service works is a joke. You obviously don't remember how much freight goes through the channel tunnel. You obviously don't realize that Europe's economy is down the toilet because they don't have a real freight system. Even if CSX makes no money, it runs hell of a better railroad than DB Cargo, Railfreight Distribution, or any European carrier you care to name
Or rather doesn't work.
Freight should always be of secondary priority on lines near centres of population. This means: most freight movements between 0100 and 0500, none between 0600 and 1000 and between 1500 and 1900. Passenger workings have to be worked at the correct times of day. Freight workings should be scheduled not to conflict with passenger workings. The easiest way of achieving this is to let the passenger company run the freight trains when it chooses. Then you tax and legislate freight hauliers into using the trains you provide for them.
You obviously don't remember how much freight goes through the channel tunnel.
You obviously don't remember that the Southern Region is to all intents and purposes a commuter railway. That's why Eurostar gets held at Shortlands and LONG MAY IT HAPPEN. If you want your freight, it had better not be between London and Sandling in rush hour.
You obviously don't realize that Europe's economy is down the toilet because they don't have a real freight system.
The British economy most certainly isn't down the toilet. The Continental one is down the toilet because of their rather stupidly named Stability and Growth pact. That is nothing to do with railways.
Even if CSX makes no money, it runs hell of a better railroad than DB Cargo, Railfreight Distribution, or any European carrier you care to name
The whole idea of a separate freight carrier is what I find objectionable. They are a top-heavy disaster on rails. Let a real passenger railway run them as the second class service they are.
Because of deregulation beginning years ago, the long distance trucking industry has become very efficient. A poorly run railroad leads to dissatisfied shippers, which in turn leads to more tractor-trailers on the interstate highways, which leads to more congestion on the highway approaches to cities, which helps worsen air pollution...and so on. If freight rail (container, piggyback, hopper cars, tank cars, whatever) is to succeed, it must be reliable.
There is also the issue of rail maintenance and trains. In other countries, high speed passenger rail, if I am not mistaken, has its own track in part to protect schedule, and in part because heavy freight trains add wear and tear to the tracks which worrsen passenger train performance.
If it were up to me, the NEC would be passenger-only, and separate freight tracks would be available for freight trains.
Which is a product of not taxing Gasoline enough. Here in the UK, there is a tax of 73.1p ($1.2164) on a litre of fuel - or £2.7778 ($4.2619) per US Gallon. Even this doesn't act as enough of a deterrent. If I were Chancellor, I would add a local tax on fuel - so that people in the boondocks don't die for running a combine harvester, but no-one in their right mind would drive anywhere near London or Birmingham.
If freight rail (container, piggyback, hopper cars, tank cars, whatever) is to succeed, it must be reliable.
And reliability is best guaranteed by running in fixed timetable slots, so that they don't get in the way of passenger traffic.
If it were up to me, the NEC would be passenger-only, and separate freight tracks would be available for freight trains.
You are even more of an August Belmont than me ;-)
I don't know if that is true, Ron. Same could be said for the MBTA/MA relationship, but really all that legislature is doing is their job -- by being accountable to the taxpayers. If the taxpayers won't fund SEPTA, well, voila. AEM7
I beg to differ. I lived in Boston for two years, and the difference is like night and day. Boston's being the capitol of Massachusetts helps a lot, because mass transit is all around the legislators, and their staff ride it, depend on it, and it is always on the agenda. Look at the Old Colony Project, the Orange Line project of the 1980's, etc.
Most legislators in Harrisburg have never been to Philadelphia and couldn't care less. It's ignorance, racism (Philadelphia has a very large African-American population not seen in other parts of the state, and poverty not even as much in Pittsburgh) and in part a lack of accountability by the legislature.
You haven't been to Boston since Jane Swift/Mitt Romney.
Boston's being the capitol of Massachusetts helps a lot, because mass transit is all around the legislators, and their staff ride it, depend on it, and it is always on the agenda. Look at the Old Colony Project, the Orange Line project of the 1980's, etc.
That's the theory. Philadelphia is the city that got the downtown Regional Rail tunnel built, unlike the North South Rail Link.
It's ignorance, racism (Philadelphia has a very large African-American population not seen in other parts of the state,
Your data is clearly from the 70's. Take a look at recent demographics of Harrisburg. In the 90's they elected a black mayor.
in part a lack of accountability by the legislature.
No, the problem is that the legislature is too accountable. The legislature has no spine, and has demonstrated no leadership on difficult issues like mass transit, which everyone wants but no one wants to pay for. Same thing in BOS. AEM7
Let me correct that. Jane Swift in fact took a fairly hands-off stance towards mass transit, which is much better than Mitt Romney's active efforts to kill it off. Furthermore, Jane Swift was from Western MA, and had no reason to fund mass transit. Romney is FUCKING FROM BOSTON. AEM7
All right, I'll give you that one. But, apparently, he has relented on the Greenbush line (green light for construction to resume).
That's the theory. Philadelphia is the city that got the downtown Regional Rail tunnel built, unlike the North South Rail Link. "
You appear to believe that, since Philadelphia got one project (admittedly a very important one) done, that equals Boston's completion of a new full-length subway line, two commuter rail lines, a new underground trolley complex (as part of the Big Dig) and a third commuter rail line in progress. And the Silver Line, still in progress. The North-South Rail link would be nice, but I'm seeing inflated prices quoted for it.
The score is Boston 5, Philadelphia 1. And even then, Philadelphia failed to reclaim the now unused and unneeded ROW for redevelopment, so there's this eyesore staring arriving trains in the face as they come into the downtown area.
Anybody can see that's very equal (is that what's referred to in school as the new math?).
It's ignorance, racism (Philadelphia has a very large African-American population not seen in other parts of the state,
"Your data is clearly from the 70's. Take a look at recent demographics of Harrisburg. In the 90's they elected a black mayor. "
Harrisburg's municipal data and mayor are irrelevant. It's the state legislature's makeup. When I said Harrisburg, did you not understand that I meant the makeup of the state liglature, not the voters in the mayoral election?
Boston mass-transit/rail project since the 1970's
* Red Line extension to Alewife (1975)
* Orange Line extension to Forest Hills (1987)
* Two old Colony Commuter Rail Lines (mid-1990s)
Philadelphia mass-transit/rail project since the 1970s
* NJ Transit Atlantic City Line (1984)
* Frankford el Reroute (1990s)
* Downtown Regional Rail Tunnel (1980s)
* Philadelphia Airport Extension
Anybody can see that's very equal (is that what's referred to in school as the new math?).
Check your facts.
AEM7
I did. You got them wrong.
"* NJ Transit Atlantic City Line (1984)"
Half a point at most. 90% of the benefit goes to Atlantic City.
"Frankford el Reroute (1990s) "
Fixing an existing El. Doesn't count.
"* Downtown Regional Rail Tunnel (1980s)"
I counted that one
Philadelphia Airport Extension"
All right, another point. But now you have to take off points for cancellation of service on the R8 to Newtown, and shortening of the Ivy Ridge Line.
You minimize inappropriately and misleadingly, Boston's accomplishments:
"Orange Line extension to Forest Hills (1987)"
It wasn't an extension. It was a whole new line, full length.
I'd forgotten the Alewife Extension.
OK: Revised score: Boston 6 Philadelphia 1.5 (would be 2 or 2.5 but I had to deduct as specified above).
Check YOUR facts!
New revised score: Boston 6, Philadelphia 0!
Service Cancellations in Boston since the 1970s:
* Commuter Rail to Bedford (North Station via Alewife to Bedford, MA)
* Commuter Rail to Malden (replaced by Orange Line Northern Extension)
* Main Line 'el' to Dudley
* Trolley to Arborway (but this is surface running, so doesn't count)
"Orange Line extension to Forest Hills (1987)"
It wasn't an extension. It was a whole new line, full length.
Actually, no. Orange Line Southern Extension was a replacement for both the Trolley to Arborway and the Main Line 'el' to Dudley. One-for-two replacement. This is why Arborway will never happen, and why Main Line will never be a subway again.
If you call the Frankfort el realignment doesn't count, I can also discount the Orange Line Southern el realignment.
We talked about this in a previous post...
I believe that Philadelphia may have gotten a different deal to the one Boston got, but really there is a lack of funds as much here as it is in Philadelphia.
AEM7
There is still a commuter rail stop in malden.
"Actually, no. Orange Line Southern Extension was a replacement for both the Trolley to Arborway and the Main Line 'el' to Dudley. One-for-two replacement. This is why Arborway will never happen, and why Main Line will never be a subway again."
The Original SWC plan back in the 20's was to route what is now known as the green line via the SWC. When plans for rerouting the orange line were made in the 1960s there was no plan to discontinue Arborway service. There was separate plan in the 50s the extend to comm Ave and hunt Ave subways to the South and west build transfer stations eliminate service south and west of those transfer points and convert the green line to heavy rail. The Plan was drooped.
Here's a construction photo from Sept 1976.
1971 foxbrough commuter rail branch opens
1971 south shore branch of red line opens to Quincy center
1975-77 orange line relocation and extension to Oak Grove.
1979 midland commute rail line opens
1981 south shore branch extended to braintree.
1985 red line extended to alewife
1987 Orange line southwest corridor relocation.
1994 worcester commuter rail extension opened.
1997 2 old colony lines opens
1998 newburyport extension opens
I didn't realize that the Orange Line we see today was the result of two discrete capital projectsL one in the 1970s, and one in the 1980s. So the Orange Line elevated began to be dismantled with the first one,right? But at least part was still running in the mid 1980's, because it was filmed for the TV series "St. Elsewhere."
Doesn't the State own SEPTA? Couldn't it nationalise everyone's lines?
Why the fuck would you even want to
Why the fuck would you even want to
SEPTA makes no fucking money and CSX makes no fucking money either
The State is losing enough money as it is
One thing I notice on these message boards. People write things they would never say (or at least I never hear) at organized railfan meetings because they'd be hooted down!
That reflects poorly on the railfans at those meetings. The fact that someone doesn't agree with you does not mean you should silence them.
Today he is the owner of Cape May Seashore Lines, and has eight of the nine remaining PRSL Budd Cars on his property.
Article text:
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Kidd has yet to say whether he prefers Brooklyn or Long Island as the future home of the New Jersey Nets. What he will say is that he prefers either one to the Meadowlands. "New Jersey has been great," Kidd said. "But we haven't had too have many sellouts at the Meadowlands because we need to get a subway system (too true). East Coast people rely on mass transportation more (preach on!) and many of the locations mentioned as far as where we could go ... they seem to have their transportation solved. In those places, there are other ways to get to the game besides the car (amen!)."
----------------------------------------
The quote is about four clicks of "pagedown"
This link will open it's own window: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1624097
I was just an a fundraising event for my children's school that my wife organized, and I was talking to someone from Prospect Heights about that very point. People on his block want an arena, of built at all, to be in the Navy Yard or Bush Terminal or something. I pointed out that in those locations, everyone would drive, so they'd never get through an environmental review, whereas over the LIRR people would use mass transit, especially if no parking were provided. He asked where people would park. I said in an LIRR parking lot somewhere! Even the players themselves understand this now!
What a change from 30 years ago. Back then, the idea was that sports teams had to move somewhere like the Meadowlands so that driving would at least be feasible. But put 20,000 people in one small place, let along 50,000 for baseball or 80,000 for football, and there is no way to make it feasible. So now they realize they have to put the big gathering places in locations where alternatives to driving are feasible. Guess which ones those are!
So the question for the arena NIMBYs is this -- should people not be allowed to gather in large numbers? Or should they only be allowed to do so in locations where everyone drives?
I agree with Jason.
Bush Terminal and the Navy Yard are both within reasonable walking distance of subway stations. No, they're not as transit-friendly as the proposed Flatbush Avenue arena would be (is anywhere?), but they'd be a vast improvement over the Meadowlands. Make parking reasonably scarce and expensive at either site, and you'd seen ample transit use. Sure, people would have to do some walking, but that's true with suburban arena and their vast parking lots.
As I've said before, however, New York desparately needs a NASCAR track, far more than any other type of sports arena. NASCAR is rapidly becoming America's most important spectator sport and the metro area remains track-less (the Poconos raceway is a bit too distant to really count).
Better than the Meadowlands, yes. But not good enough. Remember, most of the big spenders that big sports need to attract are in Manhattan and the suburbs (including eastern Queens), often working in one and living in the other. Are these folks going to take two or three trains and exit at York Street (all 20,000) and then walk 1/2 mile into the Navy Yard? No. Coney Island would be better -- at least some Brooklynites would take the subway -- but everyone else would drive, or try to.
At Flatbush, a Nassau or Suffolk resident working in Manhattan could take the subway to the game (from just about anywhere) and the LIRR home. One train on each leg. Even Queens isn't that bad if they extend the G for the occasion.
A NASCAR track within city limits would be terrific but probably not a workable idea. Most or all of the mega-tracks that have been built in recent years have been fairly distant from the cities. NASCAR tracks require a very large amount of land, I'd guess a few hundred acres minimum. What would be ideal is a location in the distant suburbs adjacent to a commuter rail line. Race days bring a huge influx of traffic, something best served by adding extra trains for the day (much more practical than building new roads that'll be scarcely used 364 days of the year). Now, where such a location could be found in the NY area, I just can't figure out.
I already started posting on BusTalk but I felt that I should introduce myself in case I wanted to post in SubTalk.
Thank You :)
Peace,
ANDEE
Welcome aboard, MetroB! Stand clear of the closing doors, please ...
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
MetroB
Seriously, at 14 years if you listen you'll be sure to lean a lot form some of the old farts here (I'm one of them in case you hadn't guessed already). You'll also find some nit-pickers who will be very quick to correct you if you don't get it exaclty right. For them I have a policy, just because the phone rings doesn't mean I have to answer it !
Your timing is just right to make out a Christmas of books you'll need, e.g. "Tracks of the New York City Subway" by Peter J. Dougherty should be at the top of your list. "They Moved Millions" by Ed Davis, Sr. will give you more detail then you knew you needed The latter is inexpensive too ! Get the 1st edition, as the qualitiy of the photos is better.
Jimmy
Enjoy Subtalk, and don't let the "anti-kiddie-corps" folks bug you.
Please remember that nyc.subway.org is more than just the boards. There's a lot of information about NYC's subways as well as other systems.
Check it out, and if your questions aren't answered, mention that in your posts. You will find that many of the regular folks are glad to help and point you to sources that will increase your knowledge.
SubTalk's a great place, and I've made quite a few friends through here.
MetroB
Never a dull moment and you do well in school. Perhaps in your next NYC term papers or projects, you can use the NYC transit system (or any railroad system) as a baseline for your project.
But for now, have fun here.
Chuck Greene
Pro
-4 track express runs
-Some of the most diverse fleet in the world
-Most of New York City is accesable by it
-Some of the most scenery
-A mecca for transit fans everywhere
Con's
-Mostly crowded
-Retarded management
-R44's still allowed to run
-2 Avenue line never built
-Retarded management
I said my peace. Have a nice day!
Pros:
1. 4 track express service
2. Cars fairly grafit free (but not scratch free)
3. Simple fare structure
4. A/C in virtually all trains during the hot weather months
Cons:
1. Lack of signs indicating when next train is due and its route
2. Lack of PA announcements in stations when there are delays
1. Lack of signs indicating when next train is due and its route
THeyre "currently" working on something like that which should be due in NYC by "2008".
2. Lack of PA announcements in stations when there are delays
Theres PA announcements at most stations. Its trying to hear them clearely thats annoying when theres a delay. And if you want to get info from the conductor's announcements you have to pray it's not a train type that has a shitty PA system (one of the drawbacks of the R62.)
24 hour operation seven days a week.
Still runs trains with railfan window.
Pros
1. Information signs in Central London accurately indicating time to next train
2. Very extensive and easy to use.
Cons:
1. Fare system is idiotic and totally outdated. As in New York, a single fare system would cut down a great deal on administration, tickets being disposed of and checked, queues on waiting to exit system. Probably by doing away with zone system, it would pay for itself and there would be no need to raise fares. Reminds me of a bridge we had in NY years ago where an audit of the books showed it was costing more administratively to collect tolls than was being made by the tolls. The solution, of course, was to raise the tolls.
2. Lack of A/C in hot weather months
3. Too much graffiti.
4. No signs on trains (except newer trains) telling customers which train it is. Example...run up the stairs at Earls Court. Train in station on track where Edgeware Rd. train is. But there are absolutely no signs to tell you whether this is an Edgeware Rd. train on the sides of the carriages. Have to start looking for platform sign and in that minute, you could miss the train if it is yours.
Pros:
A historic system with lots of variety (yes, I know Christopher Rivera said don't mention age but, as in NYC, it adds to the railfan's pleasure)
Stations mostly pretty clean and well cared for (though obviously there are exceptions)
Cons:
Large parts of Greater London are not served by the tube at all - they are served by National Rail instead, but that system is much harder for visitors to understand and use than the tube is.
Serious overcrowding, and not only in rush hours either.
JeffJaguar's comment about the fare system is a bit unfare (8-) . There is no tradition of flat-fare systems in the UK, so no-one expects it. A zonal system isn't that hard to understand, especially if you've grown up with them. The fares *are* too high, which is due to another unfortunate British tradition, of treating public transport as a business not a public service. The complexity doesn't apply to regular travellers though (who have season tickets, which are about to become smartcards), and tourists can get all-day go-as-you-please cards covering all forms of transport.
That's easy. If the train is short and red and white, it is going to Edgware Road.
Run up the stairs at Earls Court. Look quickly at the signs high on the platforms to work out what train it is as you near the top of the stairs. Leap on the train before the doors close!
I suspect they have been replaced, but Earls Court had some attractive ancient signs with the destinations in white on blue, and the indicator a lighted 1930s-style arrow.
Seriously, I was just responding to JeffJaguar’s post: New Yorkers are conditioned to look at the train side to work out where it’s going. Londoners are conditioned to look for the indicator board in the station.
John
Except when you are waiting for a Hammersmith & City to Hammersmith, and then they are all Circle Line trains...... (8-)
Mr Murphy (he of the Law) controls the trains at Edgware Road.
The last time I passed through (which was probably in June, as I've been in New Zealand since July), the vintage signs were still there at Earls Court. Long may they last. But on most tube platforms there are more modern electronic signs which will tell you the destination of the next train, or if there is a train actually at the platform, the destination of that one.
Even if they install the new LED signs, which give more information I admit, I hope they don’t thrown the old signs away.
John
John
The reason for those signs is, of course, that the Met is the only line on the London undergraound that has expresses. So it's the only one that needs to tell people where each trains is going to stop.
Of course, in NYC you have expresses, but you don't tell anyone where the trains are going to stop. That would take away all the fun (8-) .
UndergrounD could operate a skipstop service on other lines if people really wanted it.
"Of course, in NYC you have expresses, but you don't tell anyone where the trains are going to stop. That would take away all the fun (8-) ."
LOL! If you can't have a little fun on the subway, you might as well walk to your destination...:0)
John
The real loser station on this section is Chiswick Park, which is served by only one branch of the District Line (the Ealing Broadway trains). But it is a NY-style "local" station with side platforms and no platform on the express tracks, so they can't stop Piccadilly Line trains there even if they wanted to.
Much to the chagrin of STOP.
The logic is that the District Line trains (which provide the local service along that stretch) are pretty infrequent at those times, Turnham Green is a more important stop than the other local stations, the Piccadilly Line (being the Heathrow Airport service) is reasonably frequent even at slack times, and the station has platforms on the express tracks, so this way it can get a better service at those slack times.
The real problem, if you cut the bull that TFL would have you believe about needing extra trainsets etc (totally false), is that the signal system on the Fast Lines is rubbish. If a train were to stop at Turnham Green, the next train would be held a long way back from the station, reducing the line's capacity to 20tph (they currently run 24tph). Given how crowded the Piccadilly Line gets, such a service cut plus an increase in patronage from Turnham Green would be a disaster. There is therefore no way for all Piccadilly Line trains to call at Turnham Green in the rush hour without spending £10m on resignalling the Fast Lines.
The real loser station on this section is Chiswick Park, which is served by only one branch of the District Line (the Ealing Broadway trains). But it is a NY-style "local" station with side platforms and no platform on the express tracks, so they can't stop Piccadilly Line trains there even if they wanted to.
If they wanted to, Piccadilly line trains could switch to the Slow Lines at Northfields (Acton Town for Uxbridge Branch trains), then switch back onto the Fast Lines at Hammersmith.
Wouldn’t the Piccadilly/District interference then impact the TPH?
Why not run the Rayners Lane trains local on that stretch and the Heathrow trains express? Or, better yet, get decent service on the District (which I always thought was so called because the trains wandered around the district getting lost, such was the interval between them!)
John
Better still, it should be possible to double service at TG by running an extra District Line service:
6tph Hi Ken - Rayner's La (3tph continuing to Uxbridge)
Then all Pic trains could go to Heathrow :-D
My guess is that the Ealing Branch is the second most heavily used on the District (after Wimbledon). Having said that, the District Line is one of the least heavily used in London.
The main benefit would be to simplify operations of the Piccadilly Line. The Western end of it gets screwed up very often because of a disparity in service between the two branches.
People on the Rayner's La/Uxbridge branch would whine about losing fast service. The only way I could see it happening would be by making a supposedly temporary service change in July and putting aircon on the D Stock.
Big blank walls blocking the view out the front of the trains.
Pros:
1. The subway-surface tunnel that saved at least five trolley routes from bustitution.
2. Extensive commuter rail system
3. Lots of good railfanning, with subway-elevated, commuter rail, trolleys, and light rail rapid transit plus the MFL cars have great railfan windows.
4. One of our subway lines is run by an agency other than SEPTA.
Cons:
1. Not enough of the city is covered by rapid transit. About thre or four new lines are needed badly.
2. Lots of the stations are dirty and dilapidated.
3. Subway-surface cars are severely overcrowded at rush hour.
4. No subway musicians.
5. SEPTA's complete lack of vision.
Some of these points refer to the whole transit system, not just the subway-elevated lines, I realize.
Mark
Now, in my p.o.v. that's a decided plus. Sorry but I really don't like being subject to impromptu "concerts" whilst on my journey to somewhere. The only sounds I like to hear on a subway are the sounds of the train itself, and the murmur of fellow passengers. That goes for the railroad terminals also. Don't need to be hearin' flutes in G.C.T. Jes' gimme dat ol'
"ALLLLLLLLLLAAAABOOOOOOORRRRRRRDDDDDD!!"
Pros:
1. Easy-to-use system with great signs, good on-board announcements and easy fare system.
2. Sparkling clean stations and trains (you can even use their restrooms without contracting some disease)
3. Comfortable cars with carpet (if I remember correctly), a/c and big maps
4. Parking lots at many stations
Cons:
1. Only two lines with two branches each (North-South line with Northeast-Line branch, East-West line with Bankhead branch) - that's a joke for a city with 3-4 million people.
2. Expensive fares for railfans (no day passes offered)
3. Most lines run alongside expressways or thru industrial areas rather than running directly thru residential areas, so people have to use one of the poor bus feeder routes or park their cars near the station (the parking lots are always overcrowded).
The cities cheapness is responsible for the other part of cont #3.
Mark
Southern cities have long had relatively high crime rates. Atlanta is no exception. This does not mean, however, that most people are at high risk of being victimized. In almost any city at any time. violent crime disproportionately affects people who are involved with drugs, involved with gangs, or (not that it's their fault) live in the poorest neighborhoods. It was so in New York in the bad old days of the early 1990's and I have no doubt it is so in Atlanta today. It is not likely that the average Atlanta resident, who does not fall into one of these risk categories, is at much more danger than the average New Yorker. In addition, "Atlanta" normally is meant to encompass not just the city, but the suburbs as well - and Atlanta has some of the best suburbs in the country. I would be surprised if suburban Atlanta crime rates are so much higher than the national average. And finally, keeping things on topic, I've never heard of a significant crime problem on MARTA.
In short, there's less to Atlanta's crime rate than meets the eye. But what Atlanta DOES have, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is a dynamic, near-full-employment economy, one where people have control over their futures. It sure isn't like New York, where unemployment is becoming a more or less permanent way of life, and everything seems in a constant state of decline.
Peter, what did I tell you about smoking that stuff, eh? Put down the crack pipe, dude...
2. Expensive fares for railfans (no day passes offered)
They do have a weekend pass, but I've never used one, because you can buy it from only a handful of places that are (I think) all closed on Saturday and Sunday! You have to buy it during the week, and I can't get to Atlanta on Friday before the MARTA offices close.
I understand MARTA is planning to switch from tokens to smart cards in the next few years, which will hopefully prompt them to offer day passes.
3. Most lines run alongside expressways or thru industrial areas rather than running directly thru residential areas, so people have to use one of the poor bus feeder routes or park their cars near the station (the parking lots are always overcrowded).
On the other hand, the lines that run alongside railroad lines provide nice views for railfans. Yesterday I was on the East Line, which has an elevated stretch alongside CSX's intermodal yard.
Of course, that might not be of much use to ordinary Atliens since you need fare for the ride out to the airport...
Mark
Aha! I'll try that on my next trip. I'll have to pay an extra fare to get to the airport to start with (I usually park at Doraville because I drive in on I-85 from SC), but I have a couple of leftover tokens from last weekend anyway. It will give me an excuse to get some pictures of the stations on the South Line. I have only a few so far.
Pros:
1. Dirt cheap (even for Moscovites) - single fare was 7 cents in 1995
2. Train frequencies of 90 seconds on each line during rush hours, 3 minutes during off-peak hours
3. Stations everywhere in the city
4. Fast service with almost no service disruptions (compared to London anyway)
5. Beautiful stations
Cons:
1. The system is overcrowded, and the fact that doors close even though 50 people still want to get on the train doesn't help
2. Confusing names of stations and lines. Lines usually carry the names of both termini (you'd ride the "14th St-Canarsie Line" instead of the L train), and transfer stations never have the same name.
3. Too many beggars and bums in front of the station buildings and on the trains
Moscow Metro carried 10 million passengers last year.
Another con is the lack of express tracks. Express service there would redistribute load and ease overcrowding on shorter trips.
There's no money to do that right now.
Moscuvites are truly blessed, public transit-wise.
Pros:
1. Dirt cheap (even for local) - single fare was 7 roubles (about 20 cents) this April, versus 6 roubles on the bus.
2. Train frequencies of 90 seconds on each line during rush hours, 3 minutes during off-peak hours
[3. Stations everywhere in the city - no, not so in St P., only four lines, and important areas are unserved]
3. Fast service with almost no service disruptions (compared to London anyway)
4. Beautiful stations
5. They have tokens!
Cons:
1. The system is overcrowded, and the fact that doors close even though 50 people still want to get on the train doesn't help
2. Confusing names of stations and lines. Lines usually carry the names of both termini (you'd ride the "14th St-Canarsie Line" instead of the L train), though they are also have numbers and colours. And transfer stations never have the same name - except one of them, in St P.'s case (Technological Institute station).
3. Too many beggars and bums in front of the station buildings and on the trains
4. In St P.'s case, the central area stations are too far apart, so that you can't reasonably use the system for local journeys within the CBD, and have to resort to the jammed and decrepit buses and trams instead.
5. They are very short of money, so that one end of one line is cut off by a tunnel collapse, and they haven't been able to fix it in the seven years since the cave-in happened. Similarly, no progress on the planned no. 5 line for lack of funding.
Berlin (U-Bahn)
Pros:
1. Reliable service with almost no disruption
2. Easy-to-use: Maps posted everywhere, announcements, standardized signs, LEDs telling you when the train is due and about possible service disruptions
3. State-of-the art rolling stock (replacement plans are made after a series of cars has been in service for 30 years)
4. Periodic special activities for railfans
5. Great station design (mostly well maintained)
Cons:
1. Expensive fares
2. Expansion plans halted due to cronic lack of funds
3. Lack of express services to decrease travel times
4. Low speed on old sub-surface lines (U1, U2, U15 and U4)
They said that the subway system was constructed prior to the war (and division of the city during the cold war). They said that the system was divided as well with East and West lines.
To my amazement, they reported that (at least one) line from the west went through the east and ran above the streets of East Berlin as an el. Imagine! People in the east can look at a train full of free Germans in the west on their commute. And West Berlin passengers can look down on the "captives" of East Berlin from a comfortable seat on the el.
Additionally I was told that there was a West subway station (below ground) under an intersection in East Berlin and that it was used exclusively as a transfer point. Naturally there was no access to and from the street, with one exception. I was told that there were privileged East Berliners who were permitted to sell (or peddle) to passengers on the platform.
Has anyone experienced these bizarre things prior to 1989 in Berlin? I heard that you could not even make a phone call to the East. But you could ride through the East on a train. Wow!
After WW II, Eastern Germany inherited the S-Bahn (suburban rail) network in BOTH parts of the city, and consequently the West Berlin city gov't started a campaign in the 1960s (after the Wall had been built) to boycott the entire S-Bahn system. WIth no power or influence over it, the West Berlin gov't concentrated on extending existing and creating new subway lines whereas the East Berlin gov't invested in new S-Bahn lines. That's why most subway lines run in what was formerly West Berlin whereas the former East Berlin has the bigger part of the S-Bahn system.
As for Western trains running thru East Berlin: It did happen on the U6 and U8 lines. The trains ran thru eastern territory w/o stopping at intermediate stations, which were staffed with armed East German border guards. In addition, S-Bahn trains from West berlin did serve one station in the eastern part of the city (Friedrichstrasse station). However, the western part of the station was fenced off with high walls, so no eastern person could ever spot a westerner. The station did have an exit though, once you went thru immigrations control, which of course means it was a one-way street as people from East Berlin weren't allowed to leave.
If you need more info, e-mail me ;o)
Both the U-bahn and the S-bahn systems run throughout the city now, and the missing bits of the system from the divided time have been reinstated. Except maybe they still haven't quite finished reinstating the last part of the "circle" S-bahn line through Wedding yet - they hadn't when I was there in April. Incidentally the ex-East Berlin airport, Schonefeld, is to be the main airport in future, and it is served by the S-bahn. Tegel, the ex-West Berlin airport, is not rail-served.
The U-bahn belongs to the municipal transport authority, like the buses and trams. The S-bahn belongs to Deutsche Bahn, the national railway system. Despite this, the fare system is completely unified so that you can make a journey by transferring between U-bahn and S-bahn without any financial penalty. While it is expensive by NYC standards, the fare is not unreasonable by European standards. IIRC there are three options: a short-hop fare for a few stops with no transfers, the ordinary fare allowing unlimited transfers (including buses and trams, and doubling back) for two hours, and an unlimited all-day ticket.
They doubled the price tag on day passes back in late 2001, which descreased sales of this type of ticket by almost 70%. As a result, the price for day passes has been slightly lowered in the last two fare changes. 5.60 Euros (US$6.27) for a 1 person day pass is still quite expensive by German standards.
And no, there are virtually no signs of East vs. West Belin left these days (outside of people's heads, that is). And the streetcar system does extend into the former West Berlin since the mid-90s(albeit only two lines - the 23 and 24 cars both serving the same stretch of line to "Virchow Klinikum").
Here is what i think is interesting:
Trains: subway (U-Bahn) the HK train (http://www.berlin-metro.de/fahrzeuge/hk/hk.htm)
running on the U2 only (currently only 4 trains for testing) and/or
the H train (http://www.berlin-metro.de/fahrzeuge/h/h.htm)
running on U5, U8, U6, U9 (info by an other forum).
S-Bahn: I like the 485 most, it runs very often on the S4x lines.
But the youngest trains are the 481/482.
for pics look at: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=581941
Service info: between Alex and Frankfurter Allee is the U5 replaced by bus due work (till 15.12.2003)
Interesting railways
The S-Bahn between Charlottenburg and Ostbahnhof (after passing
Reichtag you are in East Berlin)
Elevated subway: U1/15 Nollendorfplatz-Warscher Str.
U2 Wittenbergplatz-Potsdamer Platz
U2 Senefelderplatz-Vinetastr
On the U1/15 el you cross this bridge between Schlesisches Tor and
Warschauer Str (former East/West border):http://www.berlin-metro.de/icons/HPIM1208.JPG
Other surface parts:
U2 Neu Westend-Ruhleben
U1 Podbielskiallee-Krumme Lanke
U5 Tierpark (station build by East Germany 1973)-Hönow
Tierpark pics: http://www.berlin-metro.de/strecken/u5/tk.htm
U6 Kurt Schumacher Platz-Borsigwerke
Youngest subway station: U8 Wittenau
For pics: in Wuhletal you can get subway and S-Bahn trains on one photo
Non-railway:
Don't know if it's in tourist guides:
The "Siegessäule" at "Großer Stern". To get there use the 100 bus from
Zoo to Großer Stern. You have a great view (I like it).
The 100 bus also drives through the Brandenburger Tor.
If you have time use it (cheaper than a tourist guide bus and you see
also a lot of intersting points) for a complete round (about 70 min).
Headaway: 10 min
>The S-Bahn between Charlottenburg and Ostbahnhof
So only Zoologischer Garten - Ostbahnhof
Some additional info:
The subway extensions after WW2 were build to "replace" the S-Bahn.
The U6 and U8 run in a tunnel in the East Berlin area.
The S-Bahn terminating at Friedrichstrasse were the "elevated"
There was/is also a north-south tunnel for the S-Bahn. It had also
served Friedrichstrasse.
If you know how to use Google translation:
http://www.berliner-untergrundbahn.de/transit.htm
http://www.berliner-untergrundbahn.de/mauer.htm
1949 service:
A1 Ruhleben-Pankow (today U2)
A1 Shuttle Richard Wagner Platz-Deutsch Oper (abandoned)
A2 Krumme Lanke-Pankow (today U1 & U2)
B1 Innsbrucker Platz-Warschauer Brücke (today U4 & U1/15)
B2 Uhlandstrasse-Warschauer Brücke (today U15)
C1 Seestrasse-Grenzallee (today U6 & U7)
C2 Seestrasse-Tempelhof (today U6)
D Gesundbrunnen-Leinestrasse (today U8)
E Alexanderplatz-Friedrichsfelde (today U5)
Heh. Ya know, there's something stubborn in me that refuses to use a "language-translation" application if I wanna peruse a foreign language site. It's amazing how you can extract useful data from many sites even without knowing the language. It doesn't hurt the process to know that HTML coding is the same, it seems, all over the world. And in the midst of this, slowly, a familiarization with the language grows...certain words become clearer...without conciously trying, you pick up on the patter, a little.
If you want to, obviously. German seems to be getting a smidgen more comprehensible to me, lately...
The U6 also stopped at Friedrichstrasse. It was even possible to transfer between the U6 and the two S-Bahn lines (one elevated, one underground) that ran into West Berlin, without going through East German immigration control. I did it about thirty years ago. It was like going through a rat maze, with extra walls separating the "Eastern" and "Western" parts of the station.
They have only a north-south tunnel between Humboldthain and Yorckstrasse.
The best part (something like an elevated railroad) is between Westkreuz
and Ostkreuz.
The former border is between Lehrter Bf and Friedrichstrasse
Nollendorfplatz-Potsdamer Platz *
Kurt Schumacher Platz-Borsigwerke (*)
Kurfurstenstrasse-Warschauer Strasse *
Tierpark-Hönow
Neu Westend-Ruhleben (*)
Podbielskiallee-Krumme Lanke
Eberswalder Strasse-Vinetastrasse *
You can compare them with the IRT and the other lines with IND/BMT.
Only the third rail doesn't match. (In opposite to IRT and IND/BMT)
The "old" lines gets the power form above the "new" lines from the
underside.
>Lack of express services to decrease travel times
Not every city needs an express subway.
PROS:
• Service operates frequently
• Fairly inexpensive fares with bus/train and train/bus transfer priviledges (very inexpensive for pass holders)
• Stations are artistically pleasing, very sharp designs in planning the stations, plenty of signs so it's easy to find where you're going
• Société de Transport de Montréal (STM) is very customer friendly
CONS:
• No air conditioning
• Lack of bus/train, train/bus transfer priviledges for bus users in Laval (STL) and Longueuil (RTL) resulting in double-fare zones for those commuters
• Can be very difficult to spot an employee in the event of an emergency, especially during summer months when employees wear plain clothes
Pros:
The subway is entirely underground and otherwise indoors which is much appreciated in wintertime.
The subway is quite well integrated with the downtown office buildings through Montreal's equivelent of the PATH system.
Cons:
The bus system isn't as well integrated with the subway as it could be - there are no inside paid fare zone transfers.
Also by virtue of being entirely underground, the system isn't visible from the outside at all and vice versa there's never any view of the outside while riding the trains on any part of the system.
-Robert King
I don't like that the system is entirely underground, but I can certainly understand it, and the point was moot when they decided to make it a rubber-tired system.
Mark
They do however seriously frown on someone who reopens the doors after the train starts. The doors, while offering resistance to keep the doors closed, are not locked in place like a subway door in NY would. So if someone pries open the doors, a sensor immediately triggers an application of the emergency brakes.
That's actually the smell of peanut oil which is used in conjunction with the brake shoes for better durability.
PROS:
• Inexpensive fares
• Frequent Service
• Vast variety of equipment, often changes by line, wonderful for railfanning
• Railfan window is available, albeit like the R46 window, but better than nothing (full view window on the #14)
CONS:
• Smells awful, scent of urine is prevalent, also must watch out for gobs left by inconsiderate dog owners
• Cars often vandalized, more so on the RER
• No air conditioning, lack of station ventilation
• Very long passageways to make connections and/or exits, one often feels unsafe during late night hours
• High crime within the system, especially on the RER
• Trains are often very crowded, limited room to maneuver within the cars. On the majority of their lines, the RATP uses the equivalent of 7 IRT cars which is the most their platforms can hold (exception on the #1 which runs 8 cars IIRC)
These two factors could just possibly be linked (8-) .
Only if you don't know what you're doing.
Tip: never transfer between the 4 or 12 and the 6 or 13 at Montparnasse-Bienvenüe if you can possibly avoid it - Pasteur and Raspail are far easier.
Mark
Mark
Checkmate!
It runs every 3-5 minutes, even at 11:00 PM on Sunday, even the Sheppard and RT Lines. And it's always at minimum moderately crowded, and usually pretty darn crowded all the time.
Always a clear window in front.
No complaints about video-taping out the front window or in stations.
Trains are spotless.
Runs from the far north right to the lake, and from all the way west to all the way east.
4' 10.5" gauge for variety and a smooth ride.
Weird RT line east of Kennedy for grins and giggles, like an amusement park version of an elevated line.
Nice chimes when the doors close. (Used to be nice whistles from the conductor when the doors closed.)
Comfortable seats.
All-day pass = C$7.75 or about US$5.00
1 All-day pass is good for 2 adults + 4 children on Sundays and holidays.
Trolley cars in the subway at Union Station and Spadina/Bloor.
Busses and streetcars are transferred to frequently in the paid area (except downtown), so no transfer paper or argument with the driver is necessary.
-----------------------------------------
CONs:
Replaced by busses 1:00-5:00 AM (9 on Sunday, but the busses run every 10-15 minutes.
Opens at 9:00 AM on Sunday.
Only two-track lines.
The Sheppard Line (3 miles) took way too long to build, and the extension to York University from Downsview may also take a long time.
Some entrances are not exactly on Bloor, Yonge, or Danforth, so you have to look around about 1/8 of a block in to find the station entrance.
The RT is so crowded in the morning that some busses that normally go only to its most outbound stop (McGowan) for a transfer to it instead now go express to its closest-in stop (Kennedy) so people can go right to the subway and avoid the RT.
Not much parking at the east end, except at Kennedy and Warden. It would be nice to have more parking at RT stations.
******
If American systems ran like Toronto's subway, it would be nirvana. The closest is the Phildelphia Market-Frankford line during rush hour only, when there seems to be a train every 90 seconds and it just goes without getting stuck too often.
Okay, I'm finished...
1. Rich and distinguished history of subway cars, stations and lines.
2. Largest subway system in the U.S.
3. Key subway stations have sufficient bus routes (i.e. Main St, Jamaica Center)
4. Faster than being stuck on the F.D.R at rush hour.
5. Each line has it's own identity.
6. The most times television shows and films were shot in and around the NYC subway system than any other system in the world.
7. Many romances started here.
8. Simplified fare structure (Pay-per-ride or Unlimited) that allows unlimited access if needed.
9. Liberal transfers to every line you need, as well as bus transfers.
10. One of the safest subway systems in recent memory, well policed by the NYPD.
11. Only in the subway you will be greeted (or annoyed) by a battery seller, a pandandler, a doo-wop singer, a preacher, or guitar players in the same train you are on.
Now the drawbacks:
1. Poor information on service changes, many posters are wrong.
2. Signs all over the system are wrong, over 200 of them alone.
3. Outdated strip maps on the R62 and R62A cars
4. Difficult to obtain Metrocard refunds.
5. Conductors announce transfers to trains that are not running due to both G.O.'s or night/weekend schedules.
6. Poor ADA access, only 5% of all stations are ADA compliant. Also there is no ADA information on the service notices if a station is closed due to a G.O. Hopefully, this will improve when more stations have ADA access.
7. MTA website has numerous errors.
8. The fare is among the highest in the nation.
9. Outside of Grand Central IRT Lexingtion Ave station, when did you experience a cool station in the hot months of July and August?
10. Absence of RF windows on the R44/46/68/68A cars.
11. Absence of a eatery, outside newsstands which only offer snacks and candy.
Con: Antiquated signal light system (thirties vintage). Needs to modernize as they have in Chicago.
There are some out there who would argue that's a big plus. 8-)
I didn't say I agreed with that, though I can sympathize at times.
OK, how about the MBTA "duct tape a cardboard system map over the window so no one can see" thing?
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, there are lot more lines that never got built, like the Woodland Ave el, and the Franklin Parkway subway. (Sean@Temple can tell you a lot more about these than I can.) But Roosevelt is the never-built line that keeps getting talked about.
Mark
1)Part of the line would have been built in the median of a freeway.
2) Since the line would have been part of the Broad St Subway, the NIMBYS in the "Great Northeast" feared that black folks that lived in their old neighborhoods in North Philly would follow them up to their lily-white hamlets. Remember, this was not openly spoken of, but the veiled threats werte prevalent back in the 1950's/60's when the line was proposed. The proposal died during the Rizzo administration, and laid dormant until now.
The situation has changed dramatically, now that most of the old white ethnics is currently dying off. The Northeast has changed dramatically in the last 15 years, with Black, Latino and Asians moving into the old lily-white neighborhoods.
The subway may be built now that there is a major concern about the extremely heavy traffic on Roosevelt Blvd. Remember two of the most dangerous intersections in the USA are 1 mile apart on this road.
The idea is to depress the highway, and build the subway in the median.
There were proposals for trench railroad, expressways, and combinations thereof, but the study group has chosen an option that calls for subway in the median of the existing boulevard (no expressway) and with open-cut stations to save money. This is called the "C-prime" alternative. If you want you can read more about it at the project's website:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Improvement Study
Mark
That's a little harsh, dude. Nobody is "dying off". Many folks have changed residences, that's all. One little neighborhoods' demographic change does not make a group of people "dye off". I could show you neighborhoods in Brooklyn that have changed to mainly, as you put it, "old white ethnic". Does that mean the black folks that have moved are "dying off"?
"...with Black, Latino and Asians moving into the old lily-white neighborhoods."
...and you better believe these groups will follow the trend that has been in place for literally hundreds of years. Ya makes more ya wants more. Or at least, what has been presented to you as being "more." The NIMBY disease knows no colors. Give those newer residents a little credit. They can be as short sighted as any lighter hued folk.
Mark
While I can understand the neighbors' feelings, look at the Vine Expressway (sunken road through Center City Philly) as an example where the original Vine Street was a hazard, and the sunken road actually makes it EASIER to cross - thus uniting downtown, not splitting it.
A sunken Roosvelt Expressway with lots of overpasses could actually help unite the area better.
But it's important to do what the residents feel comfortble with. Build a subway, and enlist support locally.
BTW, if a subway option is chosen, how would the Market-Frankford extension from the Frankford Transportation Center reach it? Would that go underground north of Bridge-Pratt?
Mark
Mark
It was my understanding that extending the MFL was part of the deal.
Mark
I just wish the plan was getting more media attention.
Mark
Hmmm, I see a pattern. Am I drawn to potential transit projects, or cursing them?
Mark
And here's the website of the project. The route map is pretty cool. Not that I'm holding my breath or anything...
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Improvement Study
Mark
I didn't mind paying $7 for a ride from Doylestown to Thorndale. I don't have timetables at my disposal at the moment, but I think that was around 48 miles.
Trenton to Wilmington (58 miles) would be the same price, but would involve a train change in Philly.
Nine bucks? This one's on me!
(later)
How come we had to change buses in Atlanta twice?
Market Frankford line has much improved operation; many stations upgraded and are ADA compliant; new trains are comfortable and air conditioned (though PA announcements need tweaking).
Broad Street line runs well, though stations need upgrades. I've never been late to appointments relying on the Broad Street line.
Bus service in the city is excellent. Irelied on it to get me places the subway didn't go and never had reason to complain.
Mark
It is a good system compared to other cities, but there isn't enough of it, and there seems little push to expand the subway system, or add needed capacity on the subway-surface lines. That's what's frustrating: the seeming lack of vision in management. The mission statement seems to be "To privide fat contracts and cushy jobs for our friends" with little regard to improving service. The drive for bustitution is very visionless, too.
Mark
I like the Broad Street Subway for a couple reasons: one is that it gets me where I'm going quickly, and the other is that the kid in me likes going 63 mph in the subway.
Mark
Market-Frankford has shown many improvements recently. The M4's, Frankford Transportation Center, the station reconstruction, and their apparent crackdown on in-station smoking (also applies to BSL) are worth mention.
Route 100's as quaint a line as you'll ever ride, though I'm still unsure as to just exactly WHAT it is. A trolley with third rail? A single-car train? But it's as noiseless as a trolley...
Their trolley lines are... interesting. Routes 101 and 102 offer a mix of a commuter rail setting with a traditional streetcar setting in many places. The 102 has the lengthy Woodlawn Ave. run in Aldan, the 101 has State Street in Media, and both have the Garrett Road run. The 101 tends to disappear into the woods at times (near Springfield Mall, Drexel Line, etc.). The subway-surface... Mark explained it best, and having lived near the 34, 10, and 13, I can attest to their convenience. The 10 is a bit slow, however.
Regional Rail isn't too frequent, but it was taken over from Penn Central and Reading with commuters in mind. More frequent service when people need to get to work. Besides, SEPTA has to contend with Pennsy and Reading's single track runs in some places (Warminster, Doylestown, Cynwyd), and Amtrak in others (Thorndale, Trenton). The only REAL problem is that they've left two unused portions for years - The R8 to Newtown (which Bucks County has been supportive of), and the R3 to West Chester (WHY haven't they opened this again?). Some other portions have been eliminated due to lack of electric wire, but ONE of them (Reading) is an on again-off again proposal for light rail or some commuter rail... when they could just extend the R6. Regional Rail is also the only system operation that permits eatin on board the vehicle.
That just leaves the bus division. The city has the service frequencies, while the suburbs have the more expansive service. But suburban ops are lazy, and don't like enforcing the rules of the schedule. City division operators are the more gruff and sometimes rude ones to contend with, and they get little expansion on their routes, most of it coming from another route's elimination. The 108 shares both City and Suburban jurisdiction, and is a complete mess.
No.
I'm fascinated by the abandoned Spring Garden station, and I love the views from the railfan seat when the train goes through the junction with the main Broad Street subway tracks in either direction. I also love watching from a southbound Broad Street local train as a Ridge train dives into the spur below.
I also like tossing around ideas for makinghhte line more useful. I like the ideas that call for extending the line northwest along Ridge Avenue (making it cross the Broad Street line rather than branch off of it...a huge financial and logistical challenge, but this is fantasy, remember). This line could either give service to GermantownManayunk, Roxborough, and points beyond.
Mark
"This line could either give service to Germantown or Manayunk, Roxborough, and points beyond."
Sorry 'bout that.
Mark
Naturally, things blew that plan to bits like the NIMBYS in the snooty Rittenhouse Sq area that didn't want subway construction to mess up their genteel neighborhood, and the Depression, and finally, the decision to build the Woodland Ave Subway as a branch of the MFSE, and use it for the Subway-Surface cars rather than for trains, hence the extremely tight turns in the subway as it goes through the Penn campus.
It would have been fascinating how a line like that would have shaped up.
I can only speculate when Philadelphia will once again have the will (and cash) to start dreaming like this again.
Mark
I wonder about that myself, expecially considering the different vehicles that have run on the line. The bullets suggest an interburban, while for awhile ex-CTA L cars were running on it, suggesting a heavy rail rapid transit line, while today it seems like light rail rapid transit in the age of the N5 car.
Whatever you call it, I love riding on it. It goes through great scenery, especially when it crosses the Schuylkill at Norristown.
(I like the wooded stretches of the 101 you mentioned, too.)
Mark
" In what major world cities can you get from the downtown or central business district to the city's major airport(s)on one mass transit fare ? In which can you not ? Why or why not ? Discuss."
Frankfurt, Germany (every 15 minutes on S-Bahn)
London, England (Heathrow) (via Tube, or via Express Train)
Londond, England (Gatwick) (via Express Train)
Cleveland, Ohio (via Red Line)
Chicago (ORD) (via Blue Line)
Chicago (Midway) (via Orange Line)
Paris, France (CDG) (via RER)
Amsterdam, NL (via railroad train)
Phildelphia (via commuter train, every 1/2 hour, too infrequent)
Atlanta (via Metro)
San Francisco (via BART)
Newark (via NJT and on-airport rail, too infrequent)
Baltimore (via light rail line)
Washington, DC (DCA only) (via Blue and Yellow Metro Lines)
Tokyo? (express Train)
Munich? (S-Bahn)
St. Louis (MetroLink, very frequent)
Almost direct, but single reasonable fare:
Boston (You gotta take an on-airport shuttle bus)
Hamburg, Germany (Both U-bahn and S-bahn go to the convenient bus connection which runs every 10 minutes and takes 8 minutes as an express and is always on schedule, more convenient that it sounds)
Paris, France (Orly, via RER and OrlyVAL (which I've never seen described))
New York-JFK (rotten shuttle bus, or very crowded Q10)
Toronto (Bloor Line west, then a 20 minute bus ride, which runs every 20-30 minutes, so-so)
Baltimore (BWI) from Washington: Green Line then a bus running every 40 minutes (not frequent enough)
This may not be exhaustive, but it has exhausted me :-)
London (Stansted) - Express Train roughly half-hourly plus local trains
London (City) - not yet, but will have Docklands LRT to Bank soon (2005?) Shuttle bus to Canning Town tube/Docklands LRT station till then
London (Luton) - station on main line, frequent trains, free shuttle bus to terminal from station with bus running time about five minutes
Birmingham, UK - station on main line, frequent trains
Manchester, UK - trains about every 20 minutes
Southampton, UK - station on a main line, frequent trains, very short walk to terminal
Newcastle, UK - Tyne & Wear Metro
Teesside, UK - there is a station but I've never been there to see how convenient it is
Glasgow (Prestwick) - there is a station but the airport isn't used much
Copenhagen, Denmark (quite new metro)
Berlin (Schonefeld) - S-bahn
Brussels, Belgium - train, pretty frequent
Rome, Italy - they are building a rail line, not sure whether it is finished yet
Sydney, Australia - train that looks like a subway, frequent service, built new for the 2000 Olympics
Easy to navigate.
Clean system
Light Rail interface with Amtrak/MARC
Highway access.
Simple fare system
cons:
PUNY!
Light Rail's (in)frequency
MARC does not run on weekends (Frederick/Brunswick Line isn't Baltimore's problem)
Metro isn't well traveled
Single-track Light Rail
No commuter rail connection to Philly/NYC (Hopping NJT/SEPTA/MARC wouldn't be bad, except maybe for changing from R7 to R2 at 30th Street.)
Baltimore itself sometimes.
Overrun by bus service, fleet is made up of rejected Flxibles.
Pros:
Expansive
Web network system (stretches to many corners of the DC Metro area)
Trains run pretty damn fast
Color-coded lines WITHOUT multiple letters/numbers (ahem, NYC...)
Constant additions and improvements
Many stations close to DC attractions
Multiple interfaces with commuter rail/Amtrak (Rockville, College Park, Greenbelt, Silver Spring, Alexandria, Fran-Spring, L'Enfant Plaza, New Carrollton, Union Station (and if expansions do come, probably Seabrook, Bowie, Laurel, Muirkirk, Germantown, Metropolitan Grove, Lorton, and Woodbridge also)
Current planned (or in-progress) expansions are quite practical
Clean
Air Conditioned
Well-patroled
Graffiti-free
Announcement monitors
NYC "Doors closing" chimes
Flipdot/LED sign displays on trains (front for route, side for terminal destination, type of sign depends on if it's a Rohr/Breda, rehabbed Breda, or CAF car... SEPTA could use this, REALLY)
Highway access (Shady Grove, Greenbelt, New Carrollton, Branch Avenue, Fran-Spring, Huntingon, Vienna/Fairfax, West Falls Church, East Falls Church, Forest Glen)
Modern signal system
System of the nation's capital; federal funding isn't much a problem.
Cons:
Station designs, while having subtle differences, are repetitive and BORING
Stations are a tad dark, compared at least to SEPTA
Sometimes hard to figure out where you're going.
Trains mix occasionally (Orange Line to Franconia-Springfield?)
Many turnback stations unused as such (would be nice)
Fare zones (YECH!)
Much evidence of bird shit in the eaves of elevated stops.
Original plans>current system
Dulles Extension and possible Centreville/Chantilly line taking FOREVER to come to exist
HOV lanes taking up space Metro could use (Blue line in median of I-95 into Dale City, perhaps?)
Automatic Train Control
Trains too quiet (I like my trains LOUD)
For quiet trains, quite a bit of curve screeching
Tracks frequently taken out of service
Yellow Line is a bit too short (only two stations to itself, should have BEEN expanded by now)
Eating/drinking policies (don't get me started)
Not THAT frequent (granted, line sharing is a factor on four of them (Yellow with Blue & Green, Blue with Orange), especially problematic for Red line at times
24 hour service DOES NOT EXIST
Operators sometimes unfriendly. Does a little hospitality for a railfan from Philly hurt THAT much?
Many station-to-station MetroBus routes (Q2: Shady Grove - Rockville - Wheaton - Silver Spring) take a LONG time to get anywhere.
MD and VA funding IS a problem.
What MD funding they get is taken AWAY from Baltimore.
On the subject of 24hr service in Washington DC, there is no need for it. At night the place is a ghost town.
I've never found operators to be unfriendly, but I noticed you said sometimes, but I guess thats every line of business, you do have unfriendly people.
Whats wrong with ATO?
People actually like quietness. After working all day most people are really sleepy.
As for station designs, yes they are repetative and boring, however the vast expanse does provide for more security and observation. I'll take it over NYC designs.
Can't prevent bird shit, unless you shoot the birds down with the F-15's flying around LOL.
I have no problem with the eating/drinking policy, I like it clean.
One more PRO item to ad is: Safety, you have personnel in every station, plus cameras covering stations and tunnels.
--However, as I said everyone is open to their own opinion, now the CONS in my opinion that you mention don't make it a bad system, obvisouly no two systems can be run alike (NYCT, WMATA etc).
Thanks, I do enjoy your insight, and I do agree with a lot of it.
Don't have NJT, WMATA, or Maryland MTA (until I get track maps done (I hand-draw mine)), and not touching NYC with a 10-foot pencil. I'll get lost there.
On the other hand, I have TOO MANY hand-drawn rack maps of SEPTA rails, especially the Broad Street Line.
Also, when was there ever an Orange Line train to Franconia-Springfield? The July 4th routes don't count (and it would be Orange to Addison if that is what you are thinking of).
ATO... yes, because of greater speed in manual, and that incident with the door closing on someone, and the train started before the poor person could escape... wasn't he draged into the tunnel wall or something? This was last year, and it was a hot topic on ol' SubTalk.
"Blue Line to Woodbridge" - Please, WMATA, PLEASE!!! It is a GOOD idea, and Newington and Lorton could use the service.
RUSH HOUR fares! $2-something for a normal fare from downtown DC to Huntington was bad enough, but when I tried to leave Huntington station the darn faregate wouldn't let me through until I threw more quarters into the hungry mouth of the 'add fare machine' (actually, I only had a $5 bill and got two hands full of change in return).
From all the transit systems I've ridden all over the world not a single one had rush hour fares. I mean it's a stupid concept - when the highways are crammed and it would be beneficial to make people leave their car at home and take public transit instead you're 'greeted' by rush hour fares. In acient times, streetcar operators offered special discounted "worker's monthly passes" to allow poor people to use public transit to get to work. WMATA has turned that concept around and now rip you off when you try to be a good citizen and protect the environment and help easing congestion.
D'oh! There goes ANOTHER ONE! (missing letter italicized)
NJT Pros & Cons
Pros:
Statewide system
Many supporting systems (PATCO, PATH, NY Waterway Ferry, Metro-North, SEPTA)
Lines FINALLY color-coded (Orange: RVL. Light blue: North Jersey Coast Line. Red: NECL. Blue: ACRL. Purple: PVL. Brown (Burgundy?): Montclair/Boonton. Yellow: Main/Bergen. Green: M&E. Not coded: Newark City Subway, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, Southern NJ Light Rail)
Many cities served (Trenton, Philadelphia, NYC, Atlantic City, Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken, Camden, Orange, Hackensack, Hackettstown, Jersey Shore)
Cross-honored fares with SEPTA for NYC/Philly travel
Honors Amtrak tickets, just in case...
ACRL tickets Honored: Atlantic City-anywhere except Atco, Cherry Hill, Philly on the 554 bus, and AC-Philly on the 551 bus.
North Jersey rail tickets honored on various bus routes (last time I checked)
MUs, Push-pull, on their ELECTRIC equipment.
Nicely designed new Push-Pull equipment.
Informative signage in rail terminals (Newark, Trenton, Penn Station, Secaucus)
Secaucus Transfer Station
Upcoming SNJLRT
Confirmed projects for: Camden-Glassboro, Cape May, and West Trenton
West Trenton line=ALTERNATE way from Philly to Newark/Secaucus/Hoboken/NYC (and WITHOUT too much of Amtrak, as Amtrak uses no ex-Reading lines (which this and the R3 West Trenton use), avoiding Zoo/North Phila./Trenton
Monmouth Park and Notrh Jersey Shore service speaks for itself.
Catchy color scheme.
Quaint, attractive stations dot the North Jersey lines, with attractive modern facilities along the NECL (Hamilton, Newark Int'l Airport, Secaucus Transfer)
Cons:
State legislature hates NJT more than PA Legislature seems to hate SEPTA (and that's pretty bad)
More bus than rail
"Upcoming and "Confirmed" projects should have BEEN HERE ALREADY!
SNJLRT=Dead Line Running.
Philadelphia area rail almost nonexistent (And what is there relies too heavily on the Walter Rand Transportation Center)
FAR too much single track. (ACRL, Raritan Valley)
Astounding lack of electrification (Raritan Valley Line, Main/Bergen/Port Jervis, Pascack Valley, Atlantic City Lines, all of Hoboken Terminal, and the segment from Long Branch to Bay Head is all diesel)
AMTRAK influence on NECL tends to cause problems
A few too many stations in Orange/Montclair
Lack of reliable weekend service with the following exceptions: Raritan valley (just infrequent), North Jersey Coast Lines, Northeast Corridor Line (despite half the trains only going NYC-Rahway), Morris & Essex, HBLR, NCS, and possibly the SNJLRT when it opens
Probably belongs on BusTalk, but: Route 400 is VERY SLOW. (I got to Turnersville faster on the 403, and THAT trip went through Echelon Mall!)
As if unreliable weekend service wasn't bad enough... weekend service is nonexistent on the following lines: Boonton/Montclair, Pascack Valley, and Raritan valley to High Bridge and various in-line stations, Avenel, and Jersey Avenue on the NJCL and NECL respectively.
As if THAT wasn't bad enough... ACRL has a timtable, but no definite schedule, thanks to Conrail/CSX moves across the Delair bridge, and Amtrak's availability of Track 10 at 30th Street Station. (I bet SEPTA wouldn't mind having NJT share tracks with them, but Regional Rail is too frequent for an NJT train to sit on Track 1, 2, 6, 3, or 4)
Pros:
- Very clean cars and stations.
- Awesome railfan window with a seat on all cars with an extra 1/2 seat on the PA-1,2, and 3 cars for extra elbow room.
- The fastest ride in the New York City area (JSQ-Harrison)
- The best transit bargain in the NYC area - $1.20 (with 20-trip card) to get from Newark to 34th street is a bargain by anyone's mesaure
- Awesome railfan "scenery" on the run through the intermodal transfer facility between JSQ and Harrison.
- Very frequent rush hour service. Acceptable frequencies off peak daytimes and weekends.
- No Graffiti or Scratchiti on any of the cars or stations
Cons:
- Inadequate service during late night hours. Trains are often very overcrowded and late.
- Lack of timed transfers at JSQ during late night hours, which can result in an additional LONG wait for the Newark train after your potentailly 30 minute wait at 34th for the JSQ train.
All in all, I think it's great system!
John
Mark
- Photography is illegal and the rule is enforced
Pro's:
-modern system (end 1970's-1990's)
-reliable service during peak hours and week days
-by far the fastest way of transportation in this crowded city
-user-friendly: each line identified by its own color, clear station announcement
Con's:
-only one line in the center
-serves only the eastern part of town
-filthy
-long waiting times during weekends, bad transfer conditions
They're planning a second line, called Noord-Zuidlijn (North-South line), which should connect the most important locations in the center with the Central Station (main transport hub in Amsterdam); to be completed somewhere in 2011. Plans for more lines include an extension of the ring line around the pre-war city to the Central Station, which should make a permanent circular service possible, and maybe an east-west line connecting the western part of the city with the center, this line should run alongside the outer canals. Extensions of (existing) lines to the suburbs and the airport are still being discussed, but will probably never be carried out.
MetroB
T/O's have to work according to their schedule. Some will report to the storage yard at the beginning of their tour. Others will report to the terminal. It all depends on their schedule.
MetroB
I think part of this may be a generational thing. The anti-transit generation is dying off, or already living elsewhere. What you have moving into the city is immigrants who can't drive and young people who don't want to.
I have just been looking at some data on New York City's share of the Metro Area population by age. It is a high share for those in their 20s, and for children under age 5, but a low share beginning for school age children and their parents age 35 to 50. Go back ten or 20 years, and you can see that the parents who are out of the city today were in the city before they had children.
This corresponds to what I see in my own life, and those around me. The transit system, and the ability to walk to things, pulls people into the city. The school system, and the shortage of family-sized housing units that people can afford, drives them out.
The song is from early,1959 by Linda Laurie. Her real name is Linda Gertz and she is from Brooklyn.
The novelty songs has a jazz piano in the backround with Linda doing a monologue (ramble) with some boy she is on a date with. She wonders why he only takes her on dates for walks along the tracks in the subway tunnel.
She does her monologue in an exaggerated (maybe) Brooklyn accent.
Linda wrote Delta Dawn and Ruby Red Dress for Helen Reddy. She also did a female version of Runaround Sue using the same music track that Dion used. (Stay At Home Sue).
The song peaked at about #53 in 1959.
Has anyone else ever heard Ambrose Part V before?
Jimmy
Thanks for your post.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Now WHAT in the world did your stomach ever do to you to deserve that kind of treatment? And to think that the best spot I thought was in Downtown Brooklyn was Gage & Tollner (yes, I know they don't "do" breakfast).
>>>>>>>>LIRR M1 Exhibit...........A controller and brake handle that I bidded for (and lost) on eBay was in the case
Ah, but it obviously is getting a lot more use now than it ever would've had in your closet. You can take solace in that.
>>>>>>>>>Now I got me a 12 Pack of Corona Lights and I'm going to enjoy SubTalk and the rest of this lovely weekend
If I downed a 12 pack of beer, or whatever that Corona stuff is, I would have to enjoy SubTalk while under the couch.
Jimmy :)
Jimmy
I still don't understand all this anti-White Castle hysteria on this board. They make good hamburgers, good onion rings and lousy fries.
Yes they do. However, he was talking about WC for BREAKFAST.
I do enjoy WC, but I simply wouldn't consider it before 11 am. Obviously that's just my opinion.
Jimmy
Mmmm. This is making me hungry. I LOVE Hispanic food. When I had my apartment in college, my next door neighbors across the hall were Puerto Rican and man I loved to come home when they were cooking, it smelled so good in the hall. Every so often she would knock on my door with some Spanish coffee, or would even occasionally give me a plate of food, all different stuff on one plate. Here rice was so good, plantans, all kinds of stuff.
My favorite food is Mexican food, but even that was no match to my ex-neighbor's food. It was a sad day when I left that apartment, they were fun to have as neighbors, and I had a view of the M train from the roof.
Where else can you have a bunch for lunch at noon and still taste them the next day (and the next day).
TODAY though, technology has eliminated the need for a pit-stop where there ARE no rest rooms or a dump where the needle doesn't go to zero. DEPENDS ... the diaper of the Dashing Dan. Heh.
But folks on an interval NEED to choose wisely. TRUST ME ...
Love them wormburgers!
WC is definitely a mood-type food, if you can call it food; you really have to be in the right mood for it, and when you are it really hits the spot.
*I* am *always* in the *mood* for White Castle. The PROBLEM is later on when my STOMACH isn't in the mood for White Castle.
Yeah, I like it too (except the stomach aftermath of course).
I don't usually eat the plain ones anymore, I usually get the cheeseburgers. Those new chicken things they have are also pretty good. The mozzarella sticks are good, the onion rings are good, but Chris R27 is right, the fries suck.
Hey Jimmy, I'm glad to hear the White Castle is still there near the transit museum. That was always where I ate after going to the TM....and I haven't been there in at least 7-8 years!
6 hamburgers
1 sack of onion rings
1 sack of chicken rings
1 large Coke
Mmmmmm ....
Jimmy :P
Besides, I always eat at Burger King after going to the TM. They're the only place in the world I know that has Raspberry Nestea, and a girl that used to go to my school works there.
Jimmy
I still don't get why Mickey-D's won't do Onion rings.
Jimmy
Anyway, I would've put up with a fire and a shootout for white castle too, love stuff. :)
but now i'm OT
-Robert King
I'll answer that for you. With the Transit Museum out of commission for a spell, you move to the next best place. And that is the Shoreline Trolley Museum a.k.a Branford. It's been a number of weeks since I was last there. I miss hanging and chilling with my fellow Branfordites on the trolleys. The best thing about Branford is that it is an actual functioning railroad. The Transit Museum is as well, but the rolling stock just sits there, looking pretty. Branford equipment is on the move. The "homesick for Branford" comes in from seeing trolleys that we actually have and a subway car that I helped repaint-hence R17 6688. Plus the pleasant memories of operating the trolleys and R17 under the supervision of my fellow members who are experienced and teaching me the ropes. You can't get that at the Transit Museum. You can only dream about it. At Branford, you live it. Just ask Selkirk and other Branfordites on SubTalk. They would agree with me.
Jimmy
Funny you should mention being close with 6688. I don't think I've spent a lot of time operating 6688 in the last few months. I've got an itch to operate her on one of the two Railfan Weekend Days.
I'll work on getting more people hooked:)
-Stef
P.S. 6609 looks great, but there is only one Car 6688 that knows how to burn rubber.
Jimmy
Jimmy
I need a Conductor on the Car with me. Know where I can find one?
-Stef
Jimmy
Jimmy :)
You're hired for the job! If you could come on 10/19, I'll make use of you.
-Stef
Assuming that the 7 extension to Javits breaks ground on-time in late 2004 (it should):
MYA will have created a pretty decent crosstown line. The stops are 10th Av, Times Square, Fifth Av and Lexington Av. Connections to other lines are excellent. On the western side, you'd be two long blocks from the Hudson shore; on the eastern side, you're 3 long blocks from the UN and 4 from the shore. If we succeed in getting the SAS to 42nd Street, part of that walk would be through a covered concourse.
So there's your 42nd Street crosstown line.
That would connect the line with the "new" Farly Post Office Penn Station, which (as planned) will be connected to the "current" Penn Station via a concourse under 8th ave.
This would allow a NJ Transit/Amtrak traveler to easily access Grand Central terminal by walking under 8th ave to the "new" Farley Penn Station and board a 7 train along 9th ave.
OK. Let's look at that:
Can the planned 10th Av/41 St station be condidered a midtown business station? It will have a lot less traffic than Times Square, to be sure. But passengers coming here will be coming from Quens, or getting off the Lex to use the 7. And people traveling toJavits will do that too.
The 7 will have offloaded a lot of passengers by the time it leaves Times Square headed westbound. Arriving at 10th Av/31 St the train should not be crowded. But these remaining passengers represent additional riders the 7 didn't have before, headed to a new destination the 7 didn't offer before. So I could see a possibly worsening crowding issue in Queens and at the Grand Central transfer point.
I meant 10 Av/41 Street. Sorry.
It might not be too expensive to lengthen the #7 platforms to 12 cars eventually, if warranted. You don't have the kind of issues that GCT on the 4/5/6 poses.
And Stephen might be wrong; CBTC might allow more tph.
You shut down at least partially every weekend. When there are 3 or 4 tracks you don't have to shut down completely.
First you move the tracks outward.
Then once the tracks are in the right place, you extend the platform.
They did something like this recently at W 72nd when they widened the platforms to allow for a north exit.
Does anyone else have this trouble?
If I've missed a thread on this topic, feel free to ignore this post.
Have you tried other credit cards?
Now that I'm on a 30-day unlimited, I haven't used an MVM for about a month, but it worked fine then. Within the next week or so I'll have to buy my next card, by credit card, naturally, and if it doesn't work you can be sure to read about it here.
Many.
"Have you tried other credit cards?"
No, but my ATM card works. I'm beginning to believe in the scratched card theory.
My significant-other still has some bank accounts on, shall we say, another continent. And some credit cards.
We always experience various amusing incidents that occur at various establishments. Sometimes one of her cards doesn't work, the other one does. In another store, the first card works, the second one doesn't.
Even though it was a perfectly valid, active Mastercard, one excursion to a major home furnishing store resulted in her credit card crashing their stupid cash register so badly that the only thing they could do is to power-cycle it. It was hillarious watching a swarm of clerks trying to resuscitate a hopelessly dead terminal.
Not all credit card are created equal.
I think you just answered your own question...for the MTA, cheap is good!
Subtalkers in attendence whom I recognized:
- Myself
- R30
- Chuck Greene
- Trevor Logan
- John "Sparky" Sikorski
- Flexible Metro
- Mark W
- T Broadway-West End
I had a close encounter of the boring kind with "Super Foamer" as I was looking at the great photos in Armando's during the lunch stop. I made the big mistake of telling him I was in the World Trade Center. The man's ability to baffle you with useless information is not soley limited to rail topics. I was told things I both did not want to or need to know about the WTC's elevator system. Needless to say, I bid a hasty retreat at the first available moment.
See you tomorrow!
I passed the excursion train when the train was in the Marcy Av Spur while on the J. Thought about meeting the train at Canarsie, got lazy and went home instead.
I'm sure the Linden Shop pics will come out very nice..............quite shocked that you recognized yourself by the way.
Some people on here may not have made the logical conclusion that I would had to have attended the trip to report on it, so I removed all doubt.
LOL
Jimmy
And besides, who needs foamer glass when you can be lectured by UBER-foamer? Heh. I wonder if the D types were in need of a push? I can see concern about it gapping out, but for an electric and a diesel, sounds like undercar was a bit unhappy. Were the motors under the cars audible?
And how can you possibly say it was boring?! It was GREAT!!! The only major disappointment was not being able to go through East New York Yard [I wanted a close-up photo of that Q Diamond!!!]
The other regret [but not a disappointment] was not being able to ride down (up is no fun) the middle track.
Man, Brian's gonna be pissed when he finds out how I completely messed up the shots at Lawrence Street, all because I did something so stupid, I didn't use flash, which I should have. Only 1-2 of them are even worth saving.
I've gotta start preparing for tomorrow's trip. I hope that one of the following is true either A)9th Avenue is a photo stop or B)we get to go to 9th Avenue Lower Level or C)both.
And again I don't think, a friend of mine lives on Gates Ave near Myrtle, if I had thought about it yesterday, I could've asked him to let me access his roof and get a shot of the train going down the Myrtle El. *stupid*!!!
But I still had a great time. Trevor and company had me LMAO, as well as a nutty bus driver I had on the B20.
DOH! Sorry.
And how can you possibly say it was boring?! It was GREAT!!! The only major disappointment was not being able to go through East New York Yard [I wanted a close-up photo of that Q Diamond!!!]
Eh. The train really didn't have a diverse route. The train moved slow almost the whole trip. The unexpected photo stop inside the Linden Yard was great, as was the photo opportunity at the newly configured Atlantic Ave.
Tomorrow, I'm gonna be in paradise.
But I still had a great time. Trevor and company had me LMAO, as well as a nutty bus driver I had on the B20.
Was he the one who was "singing" in the middle unit after returning from the trackbed inside Linden?
Just thought I'd rub that in...
Tell me your secrets.
-Stef
-Stef
HAHAHAHA
I love the SBK... I still say the Steeple Cab should take a trip to the Docks!!! Bill, are you listening?!?
-Stef
-Stef
Hey, I still want one of those 80's grafitti shirts!!
Glad you had a good time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think its time for 6 to make a journey to the docks and return home to the SBK....
-Stef
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Let's hope they don't schedule any more fan trips on any religious observance (at least continue to have both Saturday and Sunday trips to cover everyone.)
1. Why Cypress Hills and not Crescent Street?
2. Why do they relay the trains in such a time consuming manner? The trains from Chambers St pull into the Jamaica bound platform, discharge, then reverse, wrong railing to the Crescent St middle track. They then switch to the Manhattan bound track. wrong rail into the Chambers St. bound platform to go back into service. Too &%$#@ complicated. Yes, I'm aware that this process eliminates the problem of bus x-ferees not knowing which track the next train will leave on, but a strategically placed station agent would eliminate that problem.
It does not take that much longer to go from Crescent to Cypress that way than the normal way.
If the NB train had just come in on the SB track to begin with, there would have been no need to relay. One train and one crew could have been dropped, and otherwise everything would have run on the same schedule.
From Parkside Ave, train goes into Prospect Park on Manhattan-bound track. Train is dumped, fumigated and relayed out by wrong railing to double crossover and to S/B express track. Lite train sits at Parkside Ave on S/B express track where it's relayed again, wrong railing to Prospect Park, S/B platform. Train enters service and goes out of PP on scheduled departure towards Brighton Beach.
At least Dekalb master tower gets a workout at the PP interlockings.
Late nights there is single track on the N/B side between Propspect Park and Atlantic Ave, no shuttle buses are used. The weekend G.O. DOES involve the double relay I mentioned earlier.
Peace,
ANDEE
>not the construction of it, it's on this page
But i'm looking for something like that:
A 207-Euclid
AA 168-Hudson Terminal
and so on
From this post:http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=565176
That's why i'm asking
I doubt we'd have been able to cross the Manhattan bridge had that option been available.
But was the Steeplecab running MU with the Triplex ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
That's because Mr. Grey had gotten off your train by then.
:0)
Chuck Greene
That would be impossible. The steeplecabs use high-voltage
type "M" control, the D types low-voltage PC-15. The steeplecab
would have a better chance of MU-ing with a Hi-V!
til tommroww
I've stated that before and I'm glad we think alike. When time comes for a new fleet for SIR, it will be new equipment and not hand me downs.
Before anyone gets on my case about the 12 GE "hand me down" R-44's that came from NYCTA, that was to expand the fleet, the Staten Island fleet was GE cars anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
The page cannot be displayed..........nice try brah !
Bill "Newkirk"
I Don't see the topic, I have no idea to what question I am responding ! Oh... oh wait, I was scrolled down to type this and was unable to see the subject.
Of course this all could have been avoided if you would just be kind enough to post your question again in the message area.
- The "drum" between sections is somewhat claustraphobic, and not built for tall people like myself
- The prewar motor oil "scent" so prevelant on the R1/9's and the Low-V I saw at Branford last week was not nearly as strong. Were the D-types AMUE as well?
- The large, single panel door must've made dwell times on lines using these cars a nightmare. They take forever to open/close. The reasoning behind the split doors pioneered on the IND cars is apparent now
- What happened to all the rollsigns in the unit?
- The cars seemed to "glide" over sharp curves in a way that other cars don't. The benefits of articulation on curve-filled routes is easy to understand
The "Arnines" are notorious for that. The Triplex's never had a smoking problem. In fact the growling sound of the R1-9's are louder than the Triplex's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the Triplexes had AMUE brakes. In fact, their braking system was the same as on the R-1/9s, right down to the trademark, "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound.
I was told though that in yard moves while they were still in service, they couldn't move with Arnines for some reason. For shop moves, you can pull iron to iron and so normally incompatible things have been moved. I vaguely hear there was something MIGHTY incompatible between the two that prohibited iron to iron as well, but it's been 30 years since what I *think* I heard ...
wayne
I still say it was a travesty to slaughter them prematurely.
There MUST have been some variations in H2A somehow ... wish I'd been paying attention back then. :)
Was there some variation in the design of the H2A's perhaps?
As Martha Stewart would say of standardization, "it's a GOOD thing." :)
As stated here, as an iron hitch only. No MU here.
I saw something years ago during Diamond Jubilee of the NY subway I never saw before. The BMT Chambers St. station was used as a display for the museum cars on the inner tracks. The Low-V's, D-Types and BMT Standards were displayed while (J) trains used their normal trackage.
After the day long display was finished, the Low-V's headed out on their own. But since only one unit of D-Type was displayed, this would create a problem with gapping out. The solution... The BMT Standards were used a "horse" to bring the one unit Triplex to and from Chambers St. This was a "iron hitch" only, no diesels were used. I saw this myself, amazing sight to see.
Bill "Newkirk"
The museum Standards 2390-91-92 are all motor cars, no trailers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well....ugh......yes !
The only BMT Standard trailers were the 4000 series cars. They were scrapped when the R-27's arrived in '61.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
I don't think so. The D-Type has trailer trucks with no motors, which would add to a quieter sound. The R1-9 and D-Types should have different motors and maybe also the quill drive gearing may be different that would add or detract the overall sound.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe I read here about a half a year ago that some Phuck stole countless rollsigns when the museum fleet was at Coney Island. Terrible.
The standards and multis had dual single leaf doors separated by a pillar. Door closing on the standards, in particular, was similar to a guillotine in speed.
However, door movement is only one component of dwell time. The BMT doorways were wider than those on the IND. Also, the BMT discouraged people from riding near the door by purposely not providing anything to hold onto. These two factors speeded movement in and out of the cars so that overall dwell time was not excessive.
Which was repeated when the R-32's were GOH'd at M&K. The R-38's didn't follow suit having bars right by the doorways.
Bill "Newkirk"
David
Chuck Greene
I was there ? I thought it was a dream !
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
As a fleet, they averaged 47 years of service. A few units managed to log 50 years.
I remember riding two car Standards on the Culver Shuttle. Two "A" units. The October 1954 takeover of the Culver line at Ditmas Ave was a slow death for the Culver Line from 9th Ave to Ditmas Ave.
Yes, the Standards were my favorite subway car when I was young. Three different roof lines (2000-2499, 2500-2599, 2600-2899), openable railfan window and nice and roomy inside !
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw you gawking at the Triplex today at Chambers St. I wish to tell you that I noticed that the air comperssor sounded much like those on the R-1/9s that were used on the IND.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm unfamiliar, though, with the tall building going up across the street. What is it? Will it encompass a larger LIRR terminal? Nimbys had halted progress on anything in the site for over 20 years; I'm glad SOMETHING is happening there, at last.
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=536326
For the Times Plaza area perhaps a form of "skyway" sidewalks could be a good fit to that junction.
- The "drum" between sections is somewhat claustraphobic, and not built for tall people like myself
- The prewar motor oil "scent" so prevelant on the R1/9's and the Low-V I saw at Branford last week was not nearly as strong. Were the D-types AMUE as well?
- The large, single panel door must've made dwell times on lines using these cars a nightmare. They take forever to open/close. The reasoning behind the split doors pioneered on the IND cars is apparent now
- What happened to all the rollsigns in the unit?
- The cars seemed to "glide" over sharp curves in a way that other cars don't. The benefits of articulation on curve-filled routes is easy to understand
Here are photos from the fun!
First my shot of the day: Gets a ton of points for rarity...
And some Nostalgia Train Photos:
But why do they keep pairing the Steeplecab with the Triplexes? I was on the first such trip where they did that, but the Triplexes were still in service, so it was a novelty. Shouldn't people be able to get a shot of Triplexes more the way they looked when they were running, without a loco stuck to the front?
til tommroww
I'm looking forward to more images from this past weekend's fan trips.
til tommroww
IF that was you,
First, the train you got on says "Coney Island" on 14 out of 16 signs and says Q Diamond on one of them, and second, five trains later came the excursion train!!! You just missed it. Tough luck I guess.
As for your sighting of me, I was trying to assist a woman to get to Chinatown but she didn't understand me (I pointed to the side where she had to go and said "any train" but she went upstairs to the Bridge St. side, no booth there anymore). I had orange jacket (wow it was too hot) and a few shopping bags.
Shopping bags???
Opps, cover is blown again.
Anyway for those early birds going to today's fantrip, see you there.
I wonder how I'll be able to teach my children to drive. The insurance for new drivers in New York City is prohibitive, almost as much as the cost of college. And driving in the city makes no sense, so there is no reason to practice. Yet it is hard to function in the rest of the USA without being able to drive. It if was built after 1950, you can't get there without using a car.
Insurance, tickets, $2 gas, maintenance, occasional vandalism or robberies, reckless drivers all in a hurry to go nowhere fast, road rage, on and on and on. One guy that I know who has a car pays a total of $1000 a month for his car. $400 for the note and $600 for insurance (his driving record went to pot). Talk about a waste.
As long as I live near a subway, I will NOT own a car. I'll just "bum" rides.
The Contest will begin the 2nd Week of October, Will End on the 2nd Week of November and The Winner of each of the 6 Categories on Thanksgiving Eve.
There are 6 Categories
1.NYC Transit
2.NYC Bus (including Bee Line, LI Bus, Suffolk County Bus, Orange County, CT Transit, and NJ Transit)
3.Amtrak
4.Metro North Railroad
5.Long Island Railroad
6.NJ Transit
There are no prizes as of yet, unfortunately I don't think I can afford any prizes, but if people are willing to donate prizes. I will be also running in the contest. That’s why I am asking for 5 separate judges.
One thing I ask of the Potential Judges, don't choose a picture because there is a redbird in it. This is for fun and to capture transit's beauty with the Fall Foliage.
til tommroww
-Stef
(cat, bag, joke)
I shall toot 1689's horn three times in your honor.
-Stef
And don't be surprised if you catch flack for this.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
-Stef
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/motormanforum/
The above message board might even already have the answer sitting waiting on ya. You'll be VERY pleased once you've got things squared away, some of the new routes these guys have done are pretty good. :)
I wish they'd get the 2 finished already, or another preview release for the A.
til tommroww
R-32.
the R40 pics were taken about mid july,at stillwell av.plus i took a few shots of trains passing by.
there was a G.O at the time,all manhattan bound W trains were to make
express stops between bay 50 st and 9 av.an R68 going to manhattan.
a manhattan bound W train.
the R40 emergency breake pull cord,and comes in grey too.LOL
R40 4229 front shot
R40 side shot with the MTA logo
i think the scanner ruined this shot,what do ya think?
another shot ruined by my scanner,the R40 rollsigns.
R40 interior shot
looking towards coney island yard
an R68 W train leaving stillwell ave
stillwell ave inferstructer work
"stillwell av"
the coney island yard.R40,R40M and R46,s
R40 4221 resting at the coney island yard.(notice the tape on it,s nose)
enjoy!
til tommroww
These pics are better than the other ones you've posted.
Well this was the 2nd pic of the 7117 that I took. The 1st pic of 7117 was taken doing the week at Kew Gardens doing the Port Jefferson Line(3:27 out of Penn to Huntington)
CG
I thought Flatbush's platforms could only hold six cars or so. Do they make everyone else walk forward?
CG
We've had them running this line for some time now. Nice interiors. I like the idea of outside destination signs, but the indoor ones could be simplified. All they need to do is announce the next stop, just like they do on LIB. Just say the station name, not that whole sentance, this station is...blah blah blah, the next stop is...blah blah blah. All it needs to say is the station name, like, Huntington.
Koi
wayne
BTW you forgot the black 'S' on the back of the hand as so other Subtalker can spot you.
Haha. About a year ago there was a thread about White Castle (of course, that comes up once a month just like 76th Street). Anyway, I forgot who, but someone mentioned as a joke that they should make a subway map and have a little blue castle at the stations that have White Castle near them, similar to the way the Tennis Maps has little tennis balls near places of tennis interest.
Which album are you referring to?
Ha, I've seen pictures of some of these railfan excursions. I can just picture a group of you guys with a boom box blastin 50 cent.
(I feel a "Law and Order" or "Dragnet" type show coming onto the SubFan Network !)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
For another $35.00, you could have joined us for the ultimate subway ride.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
wayne
It IS true
In fact, They were charging the batteries on car 10 the other day.
Yeah, I heard the sale was made, from an extremely reliable source too. Keep y'all posted.
That was the whole problem. The pols weren't making a good decision, and MUNI wasn't interested in a lease, as Federal $$$ aren't available for improvements on leased equipment. Tests with #6 showed that mods (to the front doors - outward to inward so the cars clear the loading platforms) were needed.
Now with the sale, MUNI can use UMTA money for the mods and the cars stay in San Francisco, not run with the possibility of them having to go back to New Jersey.
Either that, or they're painted green to blend in with the landscape.
I think the Brown paint on the parkway Gantries, Light poples, and (sometimes rust colored guardrails) on LI & Westchester blend in better.
The 90's base color seems to be white.
I heard a slightly different story, same idea but wrong war. Somebody in the War Dept. bought too much olive drab pain in WWI. If WWII and Korea had not come along, they would still be olive drab. They started going back to red, white and blue around 1957.
Indeed, mailboxes were red, white and blue before WWI. They changed to olive drab after our doughboys came home.
Then again, Lucky Strike went to war and never returned.
For that reason, accounting paper (I am a CPA) has always been green. There have been days when I looked at accounting paper for 12 hours. Oh yeah I had lunch, a sandwich in my left with a pencil in my right.
My eyes got fatigued anyway. How many accountants do you know who don't wear glasses?
Theni n the 1960's they started painting them a brownish/tan color.
So now they are green???? UGH!
Adam
Paint the els in the colours of the routes that run along them. Think... a purple Flushing El, and a Red and Green one on the 2/5 Lines.
Paint them all the Green the BMT used to be on the map.
If anything, I think green was chosen because it's certainly better than drab brown. I think they actually chose it on the basis of a natural look. The look of forests and whatnot. I've ridden the West End El a couple times already and it for whatever reason, the green stops and the old drab brown shows up again.
See here in these photos, not the best photos, but I don't have time right now to look for better ones:
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
--Mark
: ) Elias
This got me wondering what is the highest track number an arriving NJT train has come in on or departed from, say, in the last 10 years. In my experience going to/leaving NYP on NJT, the trains generally arrive on a track # <13 and leave (especially on weekends) from a track # <11. Tracks 1-12 is NJT/Amtrak territory and Tracks #s >12 are generally used by LIRR and sometimes Amtrak. So I was surprised to see the train had come in on 17 and depart in the evening from 16. I wonder if the train I was on yesterday morning was headed to Sunnyside Yard.
Koi
I've never seen NJT on Track 17 -- so you've got a first there. Passengers must have been a bit surprised, since there are no exits from 17 to the traditional NJT/Amtrak areas.
I once was on an LIRR morning rush train that discharged on Track 12 (before the opening of the new NJT stairways) -- what a nightmare getting 1000 people up 4 stairways that were all clustered in the middle of the platform.
CG
There is an exit (stairs) from the platform that leads to the LIRR/NJT mezzanine (one level below the waiting areas) which is what I used to exit from the platform yesterday and this morning. I used those same stairs on the way down to the platform this evening.
Koi
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Then the train in front of us took down the catenary.
After everyone sat doing nothing, for about 45 minutes, they kicked us out, and everyone had to haul their arse over to track 7, piling into the next scheduled NEC train, SRO.
On the way out, I counted at least six inbound trains stacked up between the tunnel, and Secaucus.
Track 1 looks like it's too short for the oversized rush hours trains. They only use it off-peak.
As far as the highest track number, last night I arrived at Penn on NJT, I think on track 18.
Butthead: Uh huh huh. This is like the train to uh huh huh Buttown. Uh huh huh, uh huh huh Buttown uh huh huh. The next stop is like uh the garbage dump! Cool!
Beavis: Get outta the doors, b*tthole. Mmm heh heh.
or my favorite, Pauly Shore.
``"Thank you for participating in our drill. Had this been an actual emergency, y'all would have been EATEN. 'Cause you don't listen! That's the trouble with you New Yorkers, you're hardheaded. "Oh, we've seen it all." I come in, I ask you nicely... how's a man gonna come in trying to help you--then the worm comes in, and it's, "Oh, save us, Mr. Black Man!" You all--
[neuralizes the crowd again with that flashy thing]
"Thank you for participating in our drill. Hopefully you enjoyed our smaller, more energy-efficient subway cars. Watch your step, y'all have a nice evening. ''
And "Captain?" Heh. Wish they'd issued bars and Navy whites when I ran arnines. No, on second thought the dry cleaning bills would have been a killer. Running trains for a living isn't a "dress whites" kinda gig. :)
Also works out well for folks in (as Shrub calls it) "Yurp" and of course North America because we've got "the cure" out the door before they even turn their machines on. But that's what it takes - I'm almost never awake during "business hours" though. Made for a NATTY lawn this year. :(
Now what's YOUR excuse? Still waiting for the municipal zamboni? :)
And for those wondering why Unca Selkirk dragged out Joe Bruno and his p*nis on the Hudson again ... no joke, the TRAIN station got BUSTED for pornography ... wouldn't be Rensselaer any OTHER way. Heh.
Cliquez-vous:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=173994&category=RENSSELAER&BCCode=&newsdate=9/27/2003
No registration required to read the TimesUnion online - they have advertising TASTEFULLY placed on the right side (OFF the main screen) which doesn't interfere with the story ... so no need for them to sell your "demographic" data to spammers, they just hope you click on an ad maybe. AH! Life among the bumpkins! :)
And for those wondering why Unca Selkirk dragged out Joe Bruno and his p*nis on the Hudson again ... no joke, the TRAIN station got BUSTED for pornography ... wouldn't be Rensselaer any OTHER way. Heh.
Smalbany residents need something to distract them from their miserable lives.:-P
And I'd bet a Sam Kinnison voice WOULD pursuade door-holders that the beatings shall now commence. :)
And folks WONDER why I got sentenced to arnines as a conductor ... because they HAD NO PA! AGGGGHHHHHHHHHH! (even THEN they knew)
You've obviously never been to New Zealand. NZ pronunciation:
BED is the opposite of good
BID is what you go to sleep in at night
BUD is what you make at an auction
On my way here I was puzzled for a moment when the flight attendant offered me a PIN to fill in my immigration form with!
Chuck Greene
There might be a major G.O. on the L line the weekend of 10/24-10/27. I got the word from one of the L line TSS's yesterday. He told me that there will be no train running from Broadway Junction to 8th Ave. Instead there will be three Shuttle Buses. Here what he told me how the buses would run.
Shuttle Bus #1 - Broadway Junction to Myrtle Avenue
Shuttle Bus #2 - Myrtle Avenue to Lorimer Street
Shuttle Bus #3 - Lorimer Street to the J Line
Also M's will be extended to Broad Street for the Weekend to give more service into the city. More information to follow when it does come in about the G.O.
Robert
This is to change over to the new interlocking signal at Bedford Ave and 3rd Ave. The old tower are being replased by new Relay rooms. This is being done this weekend at Myrtle Avenue so that the new relay 3/4 track can be used. The TSS's is going to take to someone the plain about making the Train go as far as Myrtle Avenu, this way there isone less shuttle bus to run bad.
Robert
There was a shuttle bus from 8th avenue, down 14th street to avenue A, to the Delancey street J station. A lot of the drivers didn't know how to go and were using avenues C and D, which do not lead you to the entrance to the bridge, or the subway station.
Robert
Also M's will be extended to Broad Street for the Weekend to give more service into the city.
Hmmm, maybe they should have GO's on the L more often.....Seriously though, if the M is going to Broad, is the J also going to Broad, or will it be sort of a role reversal that weekend, with the J terminating at Chambers Street, and the M going to Broad?
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
As I said before once I get more info, I will pass it on. Alot can happen in the next few weeks.
Robert
"Don't Lean on the Train Doors.
You might make an unforgettable Exit."
Robert
1) Anyone know why I saw an E (doors open) on the uptown F/V platform at 2nd Ave?
2) Anyone know why my #2 uptown was terminating at 135th?
Thanks!
Click Here
Mark
Mark
Mark
Andrew Willis Rosen (after the Willis ave crssing in Mineola)
Andrew Carle Rosen
Oh well..........just trying to help.
Anyway Best of luck to everyone in your family Jeff!!!
Team Monorail:
Comprised of Bombardier Transportation, Granite Construction, Gensler Architecture, and Kiewit Construction Company. They guarantee that if they get the contract, they'll flood the line with their Disney-copy M-IV cars. Of course BBD is touting it's questionable history with monorails, projects such as Newark AirTrain, the Jacksonville Monorail, the Las Vegas Monorail and the Tampa Airport peoplemover, of which only the Las Vegas monorail and the Tampa Airport peoplemover can be considered successes, and then the Las Vegas monorail hasn't even opened. They're on NYCTA's sh!t list, they're also contracto-non-personna with Amtrak over the whole Acela debacle, oh, and they've also got the hugely over-budget and late JFK Airtrain to their name. Also, they have a liberal coating of non-monorail systems on their website. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable riding in a monorail built by a company that thinks Vancouver SkyTrain (a predecessor to JFK's AirTrain) is a monorail, they just might have put flanged steel wheels on it (hey, it's BBD, I don't trust them to do crap).
Anyway, here's their large-yet-says-nothing website:
http://www.teammonorail.com
Cascadia Monorail:
Comprised of Washington Group Construction and Engineering, Fluor Enterprises, Inc. construction, Hitachi, Ltd. Transportation, Mitsui USA (no idea what they do), HDR Engineering, Inc. and "Other local Seattle and Washington State contractors and consultants". However, the key partner is Hitachi, the granddaddy of all Monorail makers! They were the inheiritors of the Alweg monorail system after that went tits up in the mid-1960s, they were the builders of the hugely successful Hadena Monorail, as well as the similarly sucessful Osaka Monorail and the newly completed Tama Monorail system in Tokyo. They propose to use their CM-110 or CM-120 monorail trains, which feature walk-through design, completely flat floors, and the standard Alweg bogie, which is said to give better ride quality.
Anyway, here's their money-saver website
http://www.cascadiamonorail.com/
And sorry for my less-than journalisitc impartiality, but I would like to see the Green Line completed sometime this century. Hitachi has a proven record in monorails, while BBD has a less-than-stellar history with transit systems, particularly DBOM contracts (read SNJLRTS). I just think Seattle deserves better than some Disney-hack train running down 5th Ave.
David
CG
Chuck Greene
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.newschannel8.net/news/stories/0903/104331.html
If they are correct, this is almost certainly the worst disaster to befall the electric railway preservation field on this continent. Fortunately, no injuries are reported; but the loss of eight cars is staggering nonetheless.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Fire at National Capital Trolley Museum Destroys Eight Historic Cars and Building
In the early hours of Sunday, September 28, 2003, a fire of unknown origin destroyed four streetcars from the Washington Streetcar Collection, three Austrian trams from the International Collection and the Johnstown Traction Company car from the American Trolley Collection; and their carhouse at the National Capital Trolley Museum.
The loss of Capital Transit Company 1053, the unique experimental streamlined car, and DC Transit 0509, the rare streetcar that once served Great Falls, Maryland has destroyed physical links to the technological development of streetcars in the Nation’s Capital. CTCo 1053 was familiar to Washington residents living along Wisconsin Ave. in Georgetown and along Pennsylvania Avenue. Preserved by DC Transit in 1956, CTCo 1053 helped close out the trolley era in Washington, DC. Constructed in 1899 as an open air car, DC Transit 0509 survived several rebuildings and was last used during the construction of the Museum’s demonstration railway. The loss of two Washington, DC snowsweepers ends the Museum’s ability to interpret street railway snow removal. One of the sweepers, Washington, Alexandria and Mt. Vernon 51 was the sole surviving car from the trolley lines that served Northern Virginia from the 1890s until the 1930s. Capital Transit 07 originally swept the snow along the route to Laurel, MD. Operating examples of the other cars lost in the fire exist in Austria and elsewhere in the United States but were significant in the Museum’s overall interpretation of the development of the electric streetcar.
The cars are priceless artifacts. However, based on market conditions for heritage trolleys and the Museum’s recent experience with the quarter-million dollar restoration of Johnstown Traction Company 352, Museum officials estimate the loss of the cars at $8 - $10 Million dollars. The Museum has not established a value of the loss of the carhouse at this time.
The Trolley Museum has planned for the construction of a new display building that would have housed the destroyed streetcars. The design building features all-metal construction and a fire supression system. Contributions to the building fund may be sent to the Trolley Museum at 1313 Bonifant Road, Silver Spring, MD 20905
The Museum plans to reopen and continue to serve the 20,000 annual visitors, including those on school trips, and will announce details at a later time.
I'm thinking of horses and barn doors.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RyPN Brief 9/28/03
The carbarn that burned was the south barn - a cinderblock-and-brick structure of all things. The frame of Johnstown Traction #352 and the shell of Capital Transit #1053 are evident; the rest of the carbarn just appears to be filled with a jumble of heaped-up metal scrap. Jeez, what a disaster.
Frank Hicks
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
As to the trolley cars, there is something the Museum can do, but it will take a while:
Find artisans, craftsman etc. willing to give time. Find the schematics and plans for the destroyed and unique cars. Build fully working replicas of them, paint them, and set them up in the Museum, and proceed with the Museum's original plan.
Replicas of rare WWII fighter planes have been built; for example, a Messerschmitt Me-262 "Swallow" jet fighter by a company in Texas. I believe a Corsair was built in this manner as well.
Perhaps creating builder's prints should be a priority for old historical streetcars, airplanes, autos, etc. This way their construction can be documented, and if they are destroyed, accurate replicas can be built.
On a smaller scale, I did once suggest that a trolley museum could reverse engineer a lever used to ring a pneumatic bell on a piecec of equipment because if the the lever they have was ever lost or stolen, they'd be stuck. In this case, all that would have to be done is to make a mold of the existing one, make a couple of castings and machine them and there'd be replacements. Oh, I got shouted down but good for making that suggestion regarding the bell's valve lever but I still think it was a good idea even though nobody else thought so.
-Robert King
#3 West End Jeff
8-) ~ Sparky
I don't know about that. There are billions of human beings while come car classes only have a single surviving member.
NBC 4 report
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
Frank Hicks
From WBAL
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And there were also nearly 2000 identical R-1/R-9's.
It's not sameness, it's just what you like and don't like. If the subway consisted of 100% R-1/R-9 lookalikes, you would not comment on the blandness.
Graffitti artists thought so too.
But I wonder if striping of some sort could be applied to the current fleet, to add a little "visual appeal" to an all-silver fleet?
Sandblasting and tagged cars would result in loss of that stripe.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I remember a cartoon in a teen mag of 1967 or so showing the Rolling Stones in the flames of hell. Mick is saying, "Well, boys, looks like we got the hottest group goin' !"
I've got some BMT el rock music lyrics I think you'll enjoy, which I'll e-mail you privately.
A party that celebrate the Sea Beach N Train got out the Montague Rathole and stay Over the Bridge 4EVER.
See you later. Photos will be uploaded by Choo Choo on Tuesday as I am subbing for him on this trip. And there will be tons of them.
NJ-NY:
1) Secaucus Transfer Station - open now on weekends, open by Dec 2003 for full service
2) Hudsen-Bergen Light Rail: 22nd Street Station opening early 2004.
3) PATH: World Trade Center line returning to full service November 2003
NY:
1) Manhattan Bridge returning to full service February 2004
2) AirTrain-JFK open for service November-Dec 2003 and Howard Beach A Train station becoming ADA compliant
Intermediate rewards (funded and in progress and we can see them taking shape):
1) Stillwell Avenue and Atlantic Avenue passenger terminals
2) 74th St-Broadway subway and bus station
3) Jamaica Station overhaul
Pause to appreciate....
OK, back to squabbling!
It's not listed as ESA, but major work there is often interrelated.
A breaker house presumably contains circuit breakers for the 3rd rail. Is MTA increasing circuit-braking capability in preparation for ESA?
MetroB
The loss of Capital Transit Company 1053, the unique experimental streamlined car, and DC Transit 0509, the rare streetcar that once served Great Falls, Maryland has destroyed physical links to the technological development of streetcars in the Nation’s Capital. CTCo 1053 was familiar to Washington residents living along Wisconsin Ave. in Georgetown and along Pennsylvania Avenue. Preserved by DC Transit in 1956, CTCo 1053 helped close out the trolley era in Washington, DC. Constructed in 1899 as an open air car, DC Transit 0509 survived several rebuildings and was last used during the construction of the Museum’s demonstration railway. The loss of two Washington, DC snowsweepers ends the Museum’s ability to interpret street railway snow removal. One of the sweepers, Washington, Alexandria and Mt. Vernon 51 was the sole surviving car from the trolley lines that served Northern Virginia from the 1890s until the 1930s. Capital Transit 07 originally swept the snow along the route to Laurel, MD. Operating examples of the other cars lost in the fire exist in Austria and elsewhere in the United States but were significant in the Museum’s overall interpretation of the development of the electric street. car.
The cars are priceless artifacts. However, based on market conditions for heritage trolleys and the Museum’s recent experience with the quarter-million dollar restoration of Johnstown Traction Company 352, Museum officials estimate the loss of the cars at $8 - $10 Million dollars. The Museum has not established a value of the loss of the carhouse at this time.
The Trolley Museum has planned for the construction of a new display building that would have housed the destroyed streetcars. The design building features all-metal construction and a fire supression system. Contributions to the building fund may be sent to the Trolley Museum at 1313 Bonifant Road, Silver Spring, MD 20905
The Museum plans to reopen and continue to serve the 20,000 annual visitors, including those on school trips, and will announce details at a later time.
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, the number of cars lost to fire is absolutely dwarfed by the number of cars lost to rot, rust and decay. Dozens of pieces of equipment, many of them complete and historic cars, ended up being scrapped or simply dissolving because the weather reduced them to piles of rotted wood and iron oxide. There is no substitute for indoor storage, whether it be an ideal "fire-proof" sprinkler-equipped building or a temporary pole barn. You're right that tarps are a good short-term solution, but in the long term they have real deficiencies: they offer less protection than buildings, need to be replaced every 5-7 years and require supervision and maintenance during that period, and severely restrict access to the car they are usd on.
Frank Hicks
Tarps have been very successful in dry places such as Orange Empire
where the primary enemy is direct sunlight.
Frank Hicks
IRM doesn't have the humidity or salt air conditions that Branford
does.
I'd be curious to hear from Seashore on their tarping,
excuse me, tahhhping program and results.
Work was done to "stabalize" both cars (painted exterior & sealing of points where water was getting in). It would be nice if they had the advantage of her sister (Standards) in CI that have stayed nice & warm all these years.
Seashore & Kingston were forced to make the same choice, i.e fragle cars inside, steel cars outside.
7 years, according to the T. AEM7
-Stef
Didn't Mr. Crapo and BERA part company on bad terms.
Crapo has rejoined the ranks at Branford as a MEMBER. !@#$%^&*()
8-) ~ Sparky
Museums may not have the money to afford safe buildings.
-Stef
Perhaps. But safe from what? Fire is obviously a concern everywhere, but what about hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and thieves? Is the B&O Railroad Museum not a serious museum because it stored its equipment in a building that was seriously damaged in a hurricane? If a museum were to have a building taken out by a tornado or an earthquake, would that museum not be a serious outfit? If a thief drills out a lock on a carbarn, enters and steals parts, is that something that a serious museum would have prevented?
Most museums do house their collections in safe buildings - buildings that are safe from weather and from everyday occurrences, which I personally consider to be the "first things" of concern being placed first. Many unforeseen disasters cannot be prevented and often cannot be planned for without going to tremendous (and, perhaps, counterproductive when allocation of limited resources is considered) lengths. Just my opinion.
Frank Hicks
IF YOU CAN START A CAMPAIGN AMONGST FANS OF THE BMT "STANDARDS", PERHAPS ENOUGH MONEY CAN BE RAISED IN LESS THAN 3 YEARS TO KEEP BMT "STANDARD" #2775 FROM BREAKING IN HALF. AS GEORGE CARLIN PUT IT "IF IT BREAKS IN HALF, YOU GET TO KEEP BOTH HALVES".
#3 WEST END JEFF
With no way to fence in or gate our property, keeping our equipment outside under tarps will not prevent, but rather encourage, the vandalism.
Of course having fire-proof and climate controlled buildings is the ideal situation, I feel keeping them inside and "rolling the dice" is a better solution than leaving them unprotected out in the open. Tarps do tend to tear and blow off anyway.
As another Shoreline member said..."We have champange dreams and a beer budget".
And now we have a leak in the roof and a hole in the bucket, Dear Liza, Dear Liza :-(
However, Roll paper last 20 or so years if the pitch is steep enough and you don't walk on it. Seal-down shingles last about the same. Other products last longer, but VT, etc. is harder on roofs then a place right on the CT seashore.
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, whatever the case, arson or not, this is a tragedy and many priceless cars are lost forever.
I wish I could believe that. But too many things just don't add up. Maybe once some of our members who have knowledge of exactly how the barn was left before the fire do their own examination you will be proven right; since I'm not an active member of NatCap (I've never even been inside either of the barns) I don't know how things were even supposed to have been left, let alone how they actually were. But the rash of arson fires in the area - which was one of the reasons my daughter moved from her townhouse just a couple of miles away - make me suspicious.
However, whatever the case, arson or not, this is a tragedy and many priceless cars are lost forever.
Agreed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
(Crabby Chuck Greene)
One of the busiest suburban lines in Tokyo had no service on its outer part Sunday morning, inconveniencing 180,000. Part of the line's grade separation program, the line's inbound tracks were relocated to temporary ones, over Saturday night. Work should have been completed by 7am Sunday but malfunctioning signals and switches were found.
JR(Japan Railways) East did not announce the delay, causing thousands of people stuck at station entrances and transfer points. Trains finally went back to service around 2pm.
The line has around 15tph on weekend mornings.
Just to be on the safe side!
However, when you get to Newark, you have to get off, and you are out of the paid area and need to pay another $1.50 to get back on on the other side. And if you do go to Newark, you might as well take an extra 40 minutes and take a round trip on the Newark City Subway (15 minutes each way + layover).
The trains are IRT size, some with 2 double doors per side (older) and some with 3 (newer) but otherwise nearly identical to each other. The trains are usually 10 cars long and almost always filled. They also go agonizingly slow in the curves south of Hoboken and north of Pavonia. But picture tunnels built with sharp curves in 1911 and you can sympathize. Before the Lower Manhattan station was destroyed, you could see the one entering track divide up into about 8 tracks and 16 platforms. Then they all merged again going back to NJ.
You can look out the front window; the conductor is at the back of the front car, interestingly.
I've taken photographs with no problems. I'll bet you can take video too, but if you can't the conductor will probably tell you pretty quickly.
If you look closely, you can see the abandoned 19th Street Station in Manhattan. The abandoned 28th St. station was blasted to smithereens during the 6th Avenue Subway construction.
Personally, I love riding the PATH lines.
Three classes of car stock: 1965 (PA-1 and PA-2), 1972 (PA-3) and 1986 (PA-4). I think all the 1958 K stock has been scrapped.
You can pay either with 1.50 cash (bill + 50c coin) or buy a $3 farecard good for round trip.
Be very careful taking pictures. When in doubt, DON'T. I took a single photo recently at Hoboken station, but before I did so, I asked the station personnel, and they asked me what I wanted to photograph.
wayne
I never heard the Black cars in song; I wonder how they compared "moosically" to their later (K and PA class) brethren? Were any of them noisier than the others (i.e. the B or C stock vs the G or J stock)?
wayne
Did you ever ride any of the MP-38 (the fisheye) cars?
wayne
PATH's photography policy is that it's forbidden. If I were to take a photograph on PATH property, I'd do it discretely.
Are you sure that's Pavonia? It looks more like Exchange Place to me. I must have been lucky on my two brief visits to PATH, because nobody bothered me. You can see the results here, including a pic of Pavonia a couple of years ago. (Hmm, I just realized I need to update that map, now that Exchange Place is open again.)
I like those E (for Erie) logos in the columns at Pavonia, because the Erie-Lackawanna's last passenger train west of New Jersey (the Youngstown-Cleveland commuter run) ran through my home town and I rode it a few times when I was a kid.
How different is the PATH from the NY subway system?
Only difference is that you cannot use a Metrocard for access (yet). The cars, as noted by double-C, have similar dimensions to the IRT apart from an angular “bulge” which permits more passenger standing area.
Do you pay for each way?
Only if you exit via the turnstile.
Do you need an ID?
Why, do you think it’s the same as buying an airline ticket…? :-P No, no ID unless you are talking about trying to buy a senior citizen fare (but there are no ticket booths, and I am not sure that a senior citizen discount is offered— try www.pathrail.com for more details).
Or when you get off at a station you can't get back on with out paying?
Only stations like that are Newark Penn, Harrison, 14th Street and 23rd Street. All other stations you can change to trains running in the opposite direction at…(one oddity that has persisted for many years is that the ride is free between Harrison and Newark—paying the fare coming from Newark is considered a round-trip fare.)
How different is the PATH from the NY subway system?
Only difference is that you cannot use a Metrocard for access (yet). The cars, as noted by double-C, have similar dimensions to the IRT apart from an angular “bulge” which permits more passenger standing area.
Do you pay for each way?
Only if you exit via the turnstile.
Do you need an ID?
Why, do you think it’s the same as buying an airline ticket…? :-P No, no ID unless you are talking about trying to buy a senior citizen fare (but there are no ticket booths, and I am not sure that a senior citizen discount is offered— try www.pathrail.com for more details).
Or when you get off at a station you can't get back on with out paying?
Only stations like that are Newark Penn, Harrison, 14th Street and 23rd Street. All other stations you can change to trains running in the opposite direction at…(one oddity that has persisted for many years is that the ride is free between Harrison and Newark—paying the fare coming from Newark is considered a round-trip fare.)
And PATH trains are a max of 7 cars long. They had extended platforms at WTC to handle 8-car Newark trains but we all know what happened there, right?
I really enjoy riding PATH. My advice: by all means go. The ride through the Kearny freight yards west of Journal Square (and the Hackensack River bridge) is one of the best railfan rides in the Metropolitan Area. Other favorite thing -all Jersey-bound trains get a red signal about two-thirds of the way through the Hudson River tunnel. It's not a train ahead, it's for a speed restriction. When they built the original tunnel they hooked up with an earlier, abandoned tube and missed the alignment by several feet! ;-D
wayne
wayne
If you're talking about the Manhattan side, why didn't they just have the tunnel enter Manhattan under Christopher St instead of Morton?
Yes. There are multi-ride tickets, but for single rides bring $1 bills, and quarters just in case the machines are out of change. The fare is $1.50.
"Do you need an ID?"
No.
"Or when you get off at a station you can't get back on with out paying?"
When you get to Newark you are outside fare control and have to pay to go back toward NYC. Harrison doesn't allow a free crossover from outbound to inbound. Otherwise you can always get back onto another train without paying.
R-32.
You can get back on without paying at 14th, but only in the same direction.
And click here for PATH kiosk photos.
Mark
But I'm glad Little Silver got its placard.
Mark
that people would associate them with modern telecommunications, even if they may be on the cutting edge?
Delta now uses this font currently for many things:
And while this older font can be used to convey the same info:
It makes Delta seem like a old, worn-out company.
Subway signage and logos are no different. It for public perception to sell their product. Nothing else. Other government agencies do the same thing, so the argument over taxpayer money being wasted is not a very good one.
The white-on-black lettered signs came around in the 70's. To the TA, the old black-on-white signs were to old and not modern enough. The old signs look a hell of a lot better on the platforms (easier to read too).
Times Square (Broadway)
Ironically, Times Square on the 7 also still has a few:
How about this:
I found this on top of a pile of trash bags at the curb in front of someone's house about 10 years ago!
Every time my brother from Albany visits, he has to go see it hanging in the basement. Three guesses why it's in the basement and not in the living room :-) He thinks my great-grandchildren will have their college educations paid for with it on E-Bay. I'm not sure.
Yeesh, don't they do any research?
BTW, musta been this one:
[smirk]
IRT trains on the Nassau St and Crosstown lines, what had the world come to?!
Its really mostly playing with the coloration of the existing bullet and covering up the old letter/number, and of course, paying attention to the reflction on the tiles (d'oh!)
Oh, that was Metropolis, not New York, sorry...
:0)
til next time
Koi
Same here.
Too bad you didn't attend Sunday's trip. That was a GREAT trip!
Koi
How would you feel if I put up a post like yours about a trip on Good Friday, Easter Sunday or Christmas, all days that are probably holy to you.
Curb your enthusiasm and consider other people's faith and religious beliefs before hitting the "post" button.
-Stef
Chris didn't say "I don't care, if you went on yesterday's trip and didn't go on today's trip because of your religious beliefs". He just made a general statement. Lighten up.
So he was referring to those who DID attend the Saturday trip and were too lazy to attend the Sunday trip. The people of Jewish faith cannot attend EITHER trip so he was not talking about them. The people that attended the Saturday trip do not observe Sabbath let alone any Jewish holiday, so SHAME ON THEM.
Why the shame? A person who isn't Jewish would have no religious reason not to attend the Saturday trip.
As far a driving the "mitzvah tank" that thing is like a bus and belongs on the other board, unless they are able to drive down the stairs from 770 EP on to the 2,3,4 & 5 tracks. =-LOL
"Often, cars that have been carefully restored ... are ... placed in what truly amounts to 'shacks'"
If by "shacks" you mean temporary barns, then this is definitely true. However, the implication that this does irrevocable harm to the cars in question is false. Even temporary enclosures, by getting a car out of the weather, reduce by probably 95% the amount of damage done over the years by the elements (compared to outdoor storage). Streetcars are not uniforms, paintings or other items found in the local historical society; they were built to be outside, and with minimal maintenance they can withstand temperature and humidity changes for decades without noticeable damage.
"'Preservation' precedes 'Restoration' as a trolley museum priority, yet scarce resources are usually misplaced on restoration first."
This is partly a practical move, and not one I would consider "misplaced". Some cars must be restored to operation because it is operating streetcars that attract the public, not static displays. Without visitors, a museum isn't a museum anyway - it's just a collection of stuff that no one sees or cares about.
"In most organizations, volunteers are highly trained before they are allowed to participate..."
Again, the implication that this ought to apply to trolley museums is based on the assumption that trolley museums have the money with which to train volunteers. Most do not, and have to work with what they have. Should trolley museums have enough money to do this? Yes! And we should also have world peace! But this isn't going to happen either, not in the short term anyway.
"Look to the Trolley Musuem of Pennsylvania if you want to see the correct priorities."
I agree that the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum is far ahead of the curve where fundraising is concerned. I also believe that most other large trolley museums will, within the next two decades, have to emulate PTM's approach to fundraising, i.e. allocating significant resources to employ a proper fundraising and public-relations person/team.
However, saying that other museums are wrong not to do that is far too harsh and ignores the reality that, in the past, most of these museums simply haven't had the "significant resources" necessary to do this. These other museums are still in their first phase of existence, the phase in which they are entirely volunteer-run, rely on individualized fundraising, and operate on small fixed expenditures. The second phase is that PTM is entering - a professionally-run museum with a sizeable volunteer base that relies on corporate and government fundraising. The final phase is probably a fully professional museum like the Smithsonian or MoMA in which volunteers take a back seat. But you can't just found the Smithsonian overnight; you need to take the long road to get there. Branford and virtually every other trolley museum is taking that road, and I think they're on the right track.
Frank Hicks
I'll agree with that. The museum I volunteer at has, within the past five years, started up an endowment fund and has also hired a grant writer to research and apply for corporate and government grants. We've also had a capital fund in place for about a decade or so. It's just a beginning, but it's the right beginning.
Frank Hicks
I think most of the "old" trolley museums realize what the problem is & I know that Branford for one is trying to get the elephant to start going in another direction. There are several here that are on committees for that purpose.
***THANK YOU***!!! for your words ... as someone in the "private sector" without strings of partisan opinions on "who do we blame?" I must COMMEND you on your PERFECT explanation of the realities. I've seen WAY too often "what's under a tarp." AGGGGGH! While some structures may not be as good as OTHER structures are, what happened here was the MOST unfortunate "Act of God" ... from what I understand, it was a lightning slap ... no matter WHAT you do, there's little that can be done by "random acts of nature" and heaven forfend, if the cars that burned were outside, under tarps and struck by lightning out in the OPEN, it would have been the same result as cinders from the burning tops caught one car after another before anyone noticed in the dark of night that awful orange glow. :(
I've clahed with Ray prior on political nonsense, so maybe it's my own reaction to his criticisms of me in the past (wanted to put that out there to be "fair and balanced") but I *really* have a problem with the conclusions drawn ... that's the ONLY reason why I've remained silent on this thread - I *strongly* disagreed with it, and the knocking of other museums who are doing their absolute BEST to maintain really put me over the top.
As Frank indicated earlier, CHECK the records ... how MANY heritage pieces of equipment were killed by fire INSIDE? This was a FLUKE, not a condemnation of museums ... and anyone who wants to put that into something beyond a TRAGIC "Act of God" ... well ... disingenuous. I've noted that Ray has a SERIOUS attitude problem with Branford, and that needs to be disclosed as well ... I can't fathom WHY. For all of Branford's *PAST* shortcomings, they REALLY seem to be on the right path over the last few years in particular ...
Sometimes UNIQUENESS is a GOOD thing ... and if it preserves the equipment, maintains it and is able to grow because MORE people support Branford and its UNIQUE "not far away at all to RIDE and RUN a REAL train" thing may put other attitudes on their ear, but to MY mind, BRAVO, BERA! Your PRESENT realities are why bingbong and I are *PROUD* to be BERA members! And in GROWING membership, there WILL be the means to preserve. THAT'S what it's about.
And BRANFORD already HAS a "redbird" in its collection. R17's will NEVER die! :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just like my grandson, you have to keep reminding him to turn the lights off (on his viedo game) & put the seat back down for the women in the house :-(
I was going to ask if you kissed 1689 goodbye, but I figured, nahhhh.:)
Yeah, just another of those little bits of reality that separate folks who DO from the foamers. As I've often said, schoolcar CURES foaming 12 ways. Some folks need to try it. Heh.
This "anything, anywhere" has resulted in some interesting things happening. I've run cars at Branford (including 629) solely because of the way BSM operators are treated. It's somewhat unsettling to be behind the controller on a railroad that you've never been on before.
It results in the Motorman's version of the Pilot's prayer: O God, don't let me screw up.
This has happened to me at Branford, Seashore, Wharehouse Point, Arden, Trolleyville, IRM, Railways to Yesterday and New Orleans. It's downright scary.
It had been 30 years when I finally got some handle time again on an arnine at Branford and was actually frightened by how much I'd forgotten. But thanks to Unca Lou, Sparky and the rest, it all came back like the kiss at the end of a hot, wet fist. Heh.
You can also equip the carhouses so that the power to them can be cut off without the main line power being off.
The Baltimore Streetcar Musuem's carhouse is equipped with the dry pipe sprinkler system and can be isolated from the 600 volt supply without the main line being down. Plus, each track can be isolated seperately.
Just a comment: All CAPS in Webspeak is SHOUTING!!
When you see your visitor base falling you want to fix it. Some ideas are better then others.
Let's keep the party rolling on the 7 until '04! Keep running the birds until all the R36 are 40 next year. And to conicide with the 40th Anniversary of the 1964 World's Fair and the Centennial of the IRT!
The downside to it all is that thanks to rotten Microsoft operating systems that appear to think that the same hard drive partition exists twice, I just lost over two hundred transit pictures that I'd scanned over the last four years. Naturally, Windows chose to disappear the version of the version of the same partition that had data in it as opposed to its empty ghost. If that's the worst that had to happen when I did this, it isn't so bad.
-Robert King
My hard disk was a mess from a partition and data point of view and it was causing Windows to crash every five minutes. I just bought and installed a new 36 GB disk, partitioned it into two (which became three and then contracted back to two, erasing all the data I backed up onto it because that was the one partition of the two occupying the same space on the disk that Windows decided to disappear on me) and then repartitioned and formatted the computer's original 9 GB disk.
After that, Windows went back on and I'm working on loading the applications back including the scanner software so I can put up a decent picture, i.e. a streetcar or subway train, for the background instead of the Microsoft grey. Tomorrow I'm going to set up all of my software development stuff. Fun and games.
-Robert King
What I'm saying is that once a hard disk is done because its heads crashes or somehow it gets dirty (usually the heads get dirty and don't read/write reliably or the platter surface gets dirty making reading and writing the affected areas unreliable), it's done for good and there's nothing that you or I can do to successfully bring it back. About all you can do is ship it off to a hard disk resurrection business and all they can do is try to recover as much of your data as they can and give it back to you on CDs, a new hard drive or whatever media they use - one thing they won't be able to do is give you back your drive itself in fully functioning condition.
Good luck with your computers, though.
-Robert King
Apparently, sometimes, a hard drive will die a slow death rather than giving up the ghost suddenly. If you don't wait too long, it should still be possible to recover most of the data in that case.
And regardless of your OS, the best course of action is to back up your data. The cost of CD-R media is so cheap that backing up files like photos and other important documents is not costly at all. Not doing so is playing russian roulette. A hard drive is still a mechanical device that can fail.
- Hard disks can fail. Mine's fine. It's carrying the operating system right now. The new disk is only carrying programs and data files. My previous software configuration had deteriorated to the point that the computer was nearly unusable and it wasn't able to write full CDs without dropping a write error in because it was so far gone. Cost has nothing to do with it, I've got a box of blank CDs that I couldn't write without burning rejects due to buffer problems. Windows was the culprit in losing the data for a) eating the partition and b) barfing whenever I tried to burn a CD recently making a backup impossible.
- Macintoshes have been availible easy to use since 1984, long before Microsoft did anything to make PCs user friendly; one could do anything on a Macintosh from any given period from then til now that one could do on a PC availible at the same time so I find your suggestion that people wouldn't have bought computers had it not been for Windows to be a total crock.
By the way, where did you come up with the impression that my scanned pictures were important? I couldn't care less about my crappy scans because that's what they are - crappy scans. Which I can rescan later on my existing equipment or on whatever better scanner I may buy later. The condition of my original 35mm Kodachrome slides and various film strip negatives is much, much more crucial than any scan of them will ever be.
-Robert King
Bush ‘escape train’ under N.Y. hotel
MSNBC
Sept. 26 — During President Bush’s two-day stay this week at the ritzy Waldorf-Astoria in New York — where he was seeking international support for the U.S. resolution on Iraq — a special escape train was idling beneath the hotel, ready to whisk him to safety at a moment’s notice in the event of a terrorist attack, it was reported Friday.
THE SECRET SERVICE arranged for the Metro-North train to be parked at an abandoned platform, always running and ready for instant departure throughout the president’s stay at the hotel on Tuesday and Wednesday, the New York Post reported, quoting unidentified law enforcement sources.
The platform — identified as Track 61 on Grand Central Terminal blueprints — is accessible by an underground passage from inside the landmark hotel and by a freight elevator that descends from a brass-sheathed door next to the hotel’s parking garage, giving the president and his entourage a second egress route in case of emergency, the Post said. Had that occurred, the train would have sped off to an undisclosed secure location, it said.
The unused station is under the Waldorf on 49th Street and Park Avenue and was never meant for riders, the Post said. The platform and adjacent tracks are normally used as a yard for out-of-service trains and can be seen by commuters going in and out of Grand Central Station, the newspaper reported.
Bush stayed at the hotel while attending a U.N. General Assembly session on Iraq and holding a series of meetings with world leaders. Members of his Cabinet, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, also stayed at the 42-story hotel, which was built in 1931.
Other leaders, such as Russia’s Vladimir Putin, France’s Jacques Chirac and Germany’s Gerhard Schroeder, also have held meetings at the Waldorf this week.
:0)
R-32.
Look!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=561485
P.S. I corrected the spelling of secret!!!
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
Koi
til next time
Seriously, I can't find it. No one else has ventured a guess I see.
My interest in subways, and railways in general, is how/why they were built in the places they were built, why switches were installed at certain points etc, rather than the actual trains.
So while the trains are very nice to look at, and the shot composition was great, the trash around the tracks and the general disrepair of the infrastructure caused me great despair!
John
The NFL shouldn't have paid anything.
The Mets and Yankees don't require anything. They just play games. The TA chooses to run extra trains so that their normally scheduled trains/crews are not over-burdened, as well as to retain customers (if I have to wait an hour for a spot on the 4 train after a Yankee game, well then next time I might drive).
While the specials benefit the teams, their purpose is to benefit the TA -- and I'm sure the teams realize this. If the TA were to approach the teams asking for payment for the extra trains, I'm sure the teams would tell them to get lost.
CG
Since WMATA is more expensive to ride, surely 30,000 fans would more than cover their costs.
If you're already paying $25-50 or more for a seat what difference does another little bit make to subsidize transit?
Mark
- The R1-9 museum train moved like a rocket, The D types, even with help from a diesel locomotive, struggled to climb minor inclines
- I like that burning oil smell that prewar cars have. The R9's definatley win that battle
- The foward facing seats on the D types are somewhat uncomfortable for tall people such as myself
- I HATE that damned drum used to connect each D type section. I have to duck to get thru it
My ideal fantrip is the IND cars running on BMT lines. I'm eagerly anticipating their return for the centennial next year.
The Standards were underpowered by modern standards (no pun intended) yet they managed a trailer in a 6 car-plus train. The D-types were not underpowered by any means. They developed 800 HP per unit, slightly less than an arnine on a HP per foot of car length basis. I think the slow acceleration may have been intentional, for extra traction and/or for a more "suburban" ride.
I don't know if this is true of any suburban line any more, but many suburban MUs used to start and accelerate so slowly and smoothly that you had to look at trackside structures to know that you started moving.
Now if you want to talk pulling power--you know the BRT 4000 series convertibles, like the one at Branford? They used to pull trailers bigger than they were!
The BMT standards, at least the ones I rode on, accelerated just fine - on level track, anyway.
Paul: What you are saying is quite true. If you ride the Metro-North ACMU's (which were originally built for the NYC) you will notice that they start effortlessly and glide to a stop. Compare this to the more modern M-1A's and M-3A's which start with a jerk and end with a jerk.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Last night, I was at the Borough Hall 4 platform at about 9:50. First, an R62 3 train rolled by. When I saw another set of headlights coming, but no bright red one on the top, I was surprised to see another 3 train. But it was actually a #2 Train! I could even hear the C/R announce it as a #2 from the 7th av platform.
Any reason why this would happen? I never thought I'd see an R62 on the #2.
R62's/R62A's: I hope David Pirmann and the rest of the site crew don't mind me posting this, but I HATE the R62's and the R62A's. The R62's have barely any EVIDENCE of a railfan window. Now what I hate about the R62A's is that they were given "fold-out" cabs. On these units, the cab door (when it's at half-width) has the teeny tiny window. I don't mind that. What I do mind is that when the cab's at full-width, I (because of my missing-the-window height) can't see a darn thing! Now let's talk about appearance. When these units were first built, they had the banks of red door zone lights (like the original R44's/R46's) which form a christmas display when the doors are open. Later, some were removed and some don't even work, so there goes the christmas display. This happened to the R68's/R68A's too, but they still look good because they still have the distinctively shiny stainless steel!!!!!!!!!
So who agrees?
The R62's aren't great because they are simply stainless steel redbirds. NYC needs to upgrade itself as quickly as possibly, and the R62/68 order did not do this.
The R142 (bombardier cars) help get NYCT up to speed in technology. People can complain about them, but they add basic and advanced features that put NYCT on par with other systems.
The R142A has this annoying whine in its motors. That's not so bad. What is REALLY bad is the grinding noise that occurs sometimes when the train stops. It even vibrates the car. This also applies to the R143's.
I pray that Alstom does not have this 'feature' on the R160's.
A person who hates the R62's just because they have no railfan window. Not only do i feel offended being the R62 lover that I am, but now I feel I must vent out my rage on the redbirds.
Signage- the easy to read and easy to correct rollsign,,, displays colors too. you dont have to be near the train to see the signs
Dependability- 2 of the most dependable fleets in the system
comfort- Seats are VERY comfortable.
Exterior- Doesnt have a visible gap, has 2 lines alond the sides to lessen plainness
Interior- decent lighting- not to bright not too dim.
R142/A
Announcements- almost ALWAYS wrong on the 2 and 6 lines. clear, but annoying too loud
Signage- Digital- Rarely showing what you need,(in the R142 rarely showing anything at all) VERY hard to correct, almost always wrong when dealing with GOs Colorless, and you must be very close to the train to read them
Dependability- These cars havent really been performing too well if they did work, all of the redbirds would have likely been removed by now
comfort- Weird bumtp in the middle- ready to make you uncomfortable in any position
Interior- too bright, looks like a hospital, keeps you awake
Exterior- Plain, and has that gap between the upper and lower panels- looksd really bad
The R-62(A) seats aren't great. They're a bit narrower than I'd like, and I prefer the Redbird/R-32/R-38 contour. But they're a lot better than the alternative these days.
To the passenger standing on the platform, the R-62(A) is much quieter than the R-142(A), whether in motion or stationary.
And the airbag suspension system still has some flukes to be worked out, I think. Both the R-62(A) and the R-142(A) give somewhat bumpy rides, but the R-142(A) bumps don't seem to correspond to the bumps in the track-wheel interface. Occasionally the train shakes violently, unprovoked.
Any car Pre R-44: GOD
R-44 and after: TRASH
*- This does not reflect my opinion.
You don't have to write down lists of car numbers to tell whether a car is a 142 or a 142A. Use your ears.
When the train takes off, if it makes a continuous whining sound without deviation, then it's a 142A.
If it makes musical sounds that makes you think that Freddy Kreuger is coming to get you to slice you up like a loaf of bread, then it's a 142.
After my second stop at Union Square (along with the "CHARGE the station, give it a full one, SEE? Ain't that NEAT?") and onto 3rd, my wrist was already twinging ... then they laid me onto the "that box is your arm's FRIEND ... USE it!" Wasn't SO bad after that, but still ... by the time I got to Lorimer, I was HURTING ... by Montrose, I'd had ENOUGH handle time. I won't even GO into the "southpaw torture" of that silliness. But it was STILL a *NICE* choochoo for this old arnine guy. :(
Back to what I was talking about - the ONE thing that caused me to keep easing back on the stick (since I wasn't ready for it) was my old experiences with arnines ... that steady rise in frequency and volume as you rolled - the PITCH was what you used for a speedo since we didn't need those sissy LED displays to know if we were actually DOING a GT20 or the low roar, kicking into coast unless we slowed down too much and needed to take a point or two ...
143's with this whine upwards, and seemingly DOWNSHIFTING and then climbing back up again made me NUTS! I thought I'd lost propulsky. :)
Now THAT is annoying ...
R-32.
The orange stickers are all still there, AFAIK. I'm starting to wonder if Lenox/Livonia is shifting to orange as its yard color, since it will be ending up with a fleet of exclusively R-62's.
By this point, most of the Lenox/Livonia fleet is R-62's. Catch those railfan windows now (on the R-62A singles), because they will be gone very soon.
R-32.
R32: Corrigation runs up the entire side of the car.
R33: Cars do not have A/C and use interior fans instead. Operating controls available on both ends.
R36: Well, the ones that aren't R33's.
R38: Corrigation runs halfway up the car, also a 1950's style NYCTA logo on the exterior #1 ends of the cars.
R40 Slant: I have no bloody idea.
R40 Modified: Corrigation is very close together, wide storm door on the #1 end, thin storm door on the #2 end.
R42: Corrigation is more spaced apart than an R40.
R44: Thin cab door on the #1 end, windbreaker glass installed by the doorways to protect passengers.
R46: Larger cab door on the #1 end, no windbreaker glass. Sound of straight air releasing is different between the 44's and 46's.
R62: Give a whirring sound above 30 mph. Exterior PA speakers.
R62A: No exterior PA speakers. Sound of straight air releasing is different between the 62's and the 62A's.
R68: #1 cab doors swing inward.
R68A: #1 cab doors slide from right to left. Upper sash window (the window that opens up to allow ventilation) is larger sized than a 62. Sound of straight air releasing is different between the 68 and 68A.
This, amongst other things.
The R-33's were married pairs, except for x number of singles bought to provide 11-car service on the Flushing line.
R-32.
Now as for the different sounds of brake release between the manufacturers of the 62/A's, and the 68/A's, I'm very observant, and I don't notice a thing! Between the 62's, the propulsion is definitely different - the Kawasaki's having that r-46 motor sound. The 62's have 119 hp per motor - I don't think it's the same in the 62A's. How do you think that guy was able to wreck at 14th St. in the first place? Those things were the fastest darn cars I ever rode on the subway - in a practical sense (r-44's aside).
R62As sound like R32s when they're braking (both must have brakes by NYAB?) but the propulsion sounds a bit similar as well.
But a side note: do the R68s and R68As use the same or different propulsion packages? I've been on both trains and they sound nearly alike on acceleration and braking.
The R46's "baloney springs" did not have rust immediately.
R-32.
We were talking about the springs between the cars.
R-32.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can find the main pics at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-16-03_BOSTON_MBTA_TRIP/
And the copious amount of tower pics at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And some teasers:
Here is the lineup at the MTBA North Station
Here is a Green Line Type 7 pulling into the "Rustic" north station.
Red Line train passing the old Ashmont tower dating from the New Haven days.
Builder's Plate from one of the Conferance Cars. After hours they do battle with the hawker-Siddley trains on the Orange and Blue lines.
WALTHAM tower. Former B&M tower now the last active "classic" tower in the state of Mass. It controls much of the Fintchburg Line out to Ayre.
once again... it's FITCHBURG.
Nice pics as well; did you have a photo permit? If not, did any T employees give you a hard time about your picture-taking?
I think MTBA sounds better.
Guess again. Brooklyn is as well served by subway and bus as Manhattan. The % of people not using cars is very high. Bronx residents, esp. the less affluent, historically had trouble affording cars. Why put up with the burden of a car if all your payment problems, the repo man, insurance, gas and oil, the car wash, when the TA takes care of all of that?
Guess again.
Alex's data in another post suggests that Steve is right. Car ownership is about 25% in Manhattan but considerably higher in the other boroughs. And the article was about licenses, not registrations. Many people have a license but don't own a car; very few own a car but don't have a license.
Mark
Manhattan car ownership rates are about 25% of households.
So it's possible. Likely? I don't know. I found it surprising when I saw the article last month, but I don't have enough information to conclusively knock it down.
They almost certainly confused Manhattan with NYC.
Always possible. They may also have divided the number of automobiles by the population. Our household has one automobile and four people, hence 25 percent.
In any event, as the census shows, somewhat more than half of all NYC households have access to motor vehicles. NYC transit surveys indicate that about half of all subway riders also have automobiles. Automobile ownership is correlated with income and family type. Singles and couples tend not to have them, families have them if they are middle class and up.
In this country, sometimes you need a car. Therefore, if cars were easier to rent less people would feel the need to own one, and some trips which are now taken by auto would be taken by transit.
It doesn't help matters that car rental rates in the NY metro area are the highest in the country. Next time you see an advertisement by a nationwide auto rental company, touting its low rates and special deals, check the fine print. You'll usually find an exclusion for NY.
Anyway, here's an example: PhillyCarShare
I have half a mind to sell my money pit of a car and sign up myself.
Mark
As a result of all the demand, New York is one of the few markets where prices are higher on the weekends. Usually they are higher on weekdays, since rental cars are for business travelers. Car rental costs are also inflated by a scarcity of land, which increases costs for car rental companies.
But there is also a self-inflicted wound -- the vicarious liability law. In New York, if a rented car is used in any way does any harm to anyone, the car rental company is responsible. Thus if someone in the Bronx rents a car and uses it to commit a robbery, the car rental company is responsible for any and all harm a jury agrees exists, including economic losses, mental anguish, etc. That cost is spread among all rental car customers.
Leasing companies face similar liability. As a result, most of the major companies such as GMAC and Ford Credit won't do leases in New York State anymore, although they can make more or less equivalent financing arrangements through loans with balloon payments. Talk about an absurd law.
Actually, there must be somthing distinctly NYC-related about this issue.
- Albany's car rental rates are the same as Seattle's. So the NYS vicarious liability law doesn't seem to have a direct effect.
- Some comapnies at Newark charge MORE to people who arrive locally than those who arrive by plane.
I think in Manhattan the issue is partly the high cost of garaging the cars. IN the NYC area in general, there is probably also an issue that NYC drivers are more reckless on average than drivers nationally, not because most are bad, but because of a core of bad apples. (Couldn't resist the mixed metaphor there.)
Mark
See my other post. Watch out for companies that charge more to people who arrive locally than by plane.
Higher rates for local renters are not uncommon. According to the car rental companies, locals are considered more likely to abuse the vehicles. I don't know whether there statistical evidence or it's basically just a stereotype.
I have heard that some motels do the same in certain parts of the country.
Peace,
ANDEE
For a brief period, Continental Express was running a regional jet flight from HPN (Westchester Co.) to EWR.
Good point - when I was younger (in the UK admittedly) my wife and I didn't own a car but rented one when we needed one. We only gave in and bought one when we had children - even then we waited a while, but the problem was that you couldn't rent cars with child safety seats fitted in those days.
But why "if cars were easier to rent.."? In my experience, renting cars in the USA is very easy - at least as long as you are over 25 with a clean license. Even a UK Driving Licence (as opposed to a US Driver's License) will do!
New York is tougher. Car rental rates are much higher, and on weekends the cars often sell out.
Has anyone heard anything new as to whether or not Penn will close, if it will stay open, or if parts will close, etc?
Thanks.
I recall street closures, but I don't remember any subway closures.
Did they have tracks running on trains and hamburgers eating people?
R-32.
CG
I hadn't started commuting to Penn in 1992, but from what I understand the station remained open. A fence was built around MSG and all entrances to the arena were monitored.
Most activites were in the evening. At 5 PM there were no major burdens related to leaving the area.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
When my class took a trip there our guide told us that was a Bluebird!
A 'single' is a car that can be uncoupled by itself. It has all the necessary mechanical parts and controls to operate by itself. Such examples are the R33/36WF cars.
'Married' is the term used for 2 cars permanently linked together. These 2 cars CANNOT be disconnected (well, if you cut the link-bar). There is only a cab with operating controls at the end of each car that has a coupler. Likely, both cars do not have their own equipment either. The R32 is one example.
'Unitized' is what trains arranged in more than two are referred to. Again, there are only controls at the ends of the whole unit, and these cars are permanently hooked together. Often, mechanical equipment is shared by all cars, so if one car has compressors, another might not, but get the functions needed from the other car.
Usually, you can tell by looking for car signage. If you see a car with signs on both ends (i.e. big (7)'s on the window at the end) then its a single. Otherwise, its arranged in some type of unit.
Actually there are many types of married pairs.
A "Civil Union" are like the PATH cars. They might only have a single control stand, but they are each regarded as a single unit and can be uncoupled via the normal proceedure into single units.
A "Protestant married pair" is what most "married pairs" are. They are a little harder to get appart, usually needing shop equipment, but it is not overly complicated.
A "Mormon married pair" where you have Protestant marriages between 3 or more units.
A Catholic Married Pair is there is it physically impossible to seperate the units. Articiulated trainsets like the BMT Triplexes or the Boston Green Line GGT's are examples of Cathoilc married pairs.
I hope this clears things up.
I guess you've never been to Branford!!!
I would assume NJTransit has the same situation on their arrows?
I have a question. I was reading a post on a road-trip/highway thread, and the report mentioned the Gold Line, and all the traffic and people waiting to get on one. Is the line heavily used in general, or is it more of a rush hour thing, or what's the ridership like I mean????
Thanks.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are they saying that if you get on a train at one end of the line it will take 15 to 20 minutes longer to get to the other end of the line or are they saying that the trains are leaving their initial service entry point 15-20 minutes late?
Yeah, some switch problem! Typical understatement. An axle of 9749 derailed leaving the yard and rerailed itself 1100 feet later. Damaged rail on leads blocked at least ten put-ins.
What are the odds that 9749 will be in the next group to make "the run of no return?
Details Here
Is this the first time that A service was replaced by shuttle buses north of 168th Street/WH?
But you're plan sounds good. Why does a 110% full train need to stop when probably 99% of the people aren't getting off.
Because it's not usually 110% full, just 95% full, it can't go anywhere anyway because of the train in front of it, and it's only 95% of the people that don't want to get off, not 99%.
That's why they don't run super expresses.
Read this section. If the TA drilled a tunnel back westbound from the yard leads under 75 Av station, added a lower level to 71-Continental, and let the lower level tracks merge with the 41 Av tunnel (the F train), then you could create an F super-express that made no stops between 21 St-Queensbridge and 71-Continental. In fact, you could continue this lower level tunnel and remerge the super-express line with the main level just west of Union Turnpike.
It would not interfere with normal F traffic, since there is spare capacity in the 63rd Street tube, and the super-express would have its own lower level terminating at 71-Continental, with direct access to Jamaica Yard (other trains could still descend the ramp from the main upper level and use the yard.
If you'd done your homework on Second Avenue, you would know that a Super-Express is pointless and what everyone needs is a local train with express station spacings ;-)
How about the lower level on a slightly different alignment, with stations at: (Kew Gardens middle tracks), Continental LL, Woodhaven Blvd (outside Lcl tracks for X-platform transfer), 69th St/QB, 46th St QB (with Escalators/Elevators to 7 train station), (21/Queensbridge or Queens Plaza)
Like it?
Very nice. It would be an alternate express, complementary to the existing one. Not a Super-Express in th sense that it would not travel nearly all of Quens Blvd's length non-stop.
But I like what you've suggested.
It was always meant to be one - there are trackways there outside the local tracks IINM.
But I was referring to the original premise, namely a train that uses existing express tracks and doesn't stop at certain express stations. Such a train is usually useless.
I can't think of any examples where this would actually make sense. (Maybe Utica on the A/C?) Pretty much every express station is busy in its own right, or is a transfer point to other lines, or breaks up what would otherwise be an excessively long string of local stations (which might overcrowd locals).
What I don't like though is the fact that it's almost essential that the super express go to 63rd St, because there is no transfer to the Lex. If a 2nd Ave subway was built, that problem's solved. But really, the only people you'll draw to this new super express route are those that live east of Continental, and who don't require use of the 4/5/6 lines. That walking Metrocard transfer is VERY unappealing and I don't even count it as anything. Whether our little fantasy line runs down 6th Ave or Broadway won't matter too much.
The first is inherently true (that was the exact purpose of the super-express to begin with), the second is forced in part by by capacity constraints.
"That walking Metrocard transfer is VERY unappealing and I don't even count it as anything."
I agree that it's a band-aid, but it's still better than nothing, doesn't cost anything to offer and some people use it. Your statement implies you kick gift ponies in the mouth. Don't.
In the case of the 7 train, the switching between local and express tracks to handle 74th St would probably slow the train down. Even if you could solve that, with 90 second headways (3 min each on the local and express track), you're not going to save much time anyway. If you're going to spend time sitting behind the train in front of you at a signal, why not spend that time in a station letting passengers on and off? If track capacity were unlimited, though, the 7 would be a good choice because so many people use the stations you list (I'd make a stop at Grand Central too).
On the other lines ridership is much more spread out. The plan you laid out for the A would mean that Penn Station gets skipped at rush hour!
Who would actually ride the N train in your example? Stillwell doesn't have that many boarding passengers -- especially when you consider that 4 different lines start there -- so the train would run mostly empty to 59th. From there, you'd only skip 2 stations. So the rest of the N line gets there service cut in half so the people at Stillwell can have faster service. You should see if you can have that part of the post edited before Sea Beach Fred finds out about it!!!
CG
If New York gets the 2012 Olympics and they build the Brooklyn Sportsplex at Coney Island, then perhaps the MTA may revive the NX or a reasonable facsimile as CC described. If only for those few weeks.
I agree. I rode it a few times; I liked it alot. Not to ignore the operational difficulties it engendered. But it was a novel experiment on a NYC rail transit routing. Probably the only incident of a scheduled "special fare" limited stop line, although I guess that Aqueduct Special qualified for this honor also.
For my money, the only true in-town "super-express" rail transit line in the city at present is the Jamaica Station to Flatbush Avenue Terminal LIRR branch. It is a true American transit marvel, if you think about it.
For laughs, See my post regarding the lower level tracks on Qyeens Blvd.
It could use the LIRR mainline, Port Washington branch, and Atlantic line ROWs. Instead of sharing trackage with the LIRR, NYCT could build Subway-dedicated parallel tracks.
The Atlantic line could make a Super-Express from Jamaica to the Broadway Junction to the Atlantic Terminal.
As for the Fourth Avenue Super-Express. Maybe if two more tracks could be augmented into the line. This would be especially useful if ever a Staten Island connection is made.
My 2 cents.
Koi
125th isn't so objectionable, because you CAN wait for local or express, whichever comes first.
E 59th, the 2 Penn Stations, and Atlantic on the IRT are really annoying. It's not just David. Anyone who waits there and could take either train except for the fact that you can't easily wait for both, dislikes them.
Thanks for correcting me on 125 St.
I agree wit your comments.
Tony Leong
Port Washington-Great Neck-Flushing Main St.-NYP
Long Beach-Lynbrook-Jamaica-NYP
Port Jefferson-Smithtown-Huntington-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP
Montauk-Southampton-Patchogue-Babylon-Freeport-Jamaica-NYP
What about closer to home?
When East Side Access opens (along with the new Sunnyside Station), I propose we look at the feasibility of adding enough infrastructure so trains can be turned to provide Queens and close-in Nassau Communities with express subway-replacement service, in areas where there is no subway.
For example, at rush hours, can we get 10 minute frequencies as follows (6 tph)? What I have written below is Inbound to NY for the AM rush hour. Obviously, the PM rush hour would work in reverse. The schedule could be made up of a combination of short-turned trains and regular existing trains coming from further out. Notice that is becomes a very local LIRR train, but in comparison to subway service and station distances, it runs express:
Floral Park
Bellerose
Hollis Queens Village
Jamaica
Kew Gardens
Forest Hills
Woodside or: Sunnyside(serves Penn only)
Grand Central Penn Station
or how about this to make up for the failure to get the E extended to Rosedale:
Valley Stream
Rosedale
St. Albans
Jamaica
Kew Gardens
Woodside or: Sunnyside (Penn only)
Grand Central Penn Station
Similar routes could be established to the Atllantic Av terminal in Brooklyn. 6 tph would be the goal.
Rosedale is on the Atlantic branch; St. Albans is on the Montauk branch. One train cannot stop at both, unless perhaps new switches were installed.
If you're asking what would serve the town of hempstead in my proposal specifically, then, well, nothing in that route. The route does serve West Hempstead and Hempstead Gardens, but neither are too close to the Hempstead Sta. Either way, I'm sure some Hempstead trains will be rolling to GCT no matter what when that link opens.
Skip Jamaica on all those runs. In fact, if you're going to try to have "super expresses" you need to have the oft-proposed never-built Jamaica flyover tracks. The biggest impediment to speed on the LIRR is Jamaica and all those switches. Of course, with AirTrain, the flyover track probably isn't a realistic possibility now.
I wouldn't start as far out as Greenport or Montauk. The distance makes even a super-express far too long to be commutable. Riverhead and Patchogue (maybe Speonk) are plenty far enough out.
Why Freeport? Rockville Centre, Merrick and Wantagh (I think) are the busiest stations on the Babylon line. Freeport is busier off-peak and on summer weekends.
I don't really like the concept of super-expresses. I'd rather keep what they do now on the Babylon branch with the staggered expresses making 3 consecutive stops and then express to Penn. If you take a look at some older LIRR schedules, you'll see that they used to have express trains like the ones you proposed -- but they switched over to the current idea. I think the current idea allows them to pack more trains into the schedule.
CG
The express from the farthest out station goes first. As soon as it passes, an express from the next group in is possible, and so on. Once you get to the innermost stations, you start all over again at the outermost.
MNRR at some point in the past (don't know if they still do it) also used this to save on conductors. They would send a PM train to all the stations in a given price zone, and check tickets at GCT before you got on the train. No need to check tickets on the train then.
That's pretty clever. They probably can't do it anymore, since there are now at least two ways onto each platform -- one from the waiting area and at least one more from the new northern exits.
CG
As for Freeport, I say there b/c there are more bus connections there.
The super expresses out east would definately help. I do know of people who live out east and work in manhatten, and have said an express train would be perfect. Also, it's a nice addition for the summer travelers.
As for the Main line(Greenport super express), I think my set-up is fine they way it is now. I think that during rush hour, there should be hourly trains to Greenport, and off peak would be every hour to Riverhead, and every 2 hrs to Greenport. Bassicaly, say a rush hour train from NYP arrives in KO. Transfer to a local train to greenport. So that's all stops to Greenport every hour.
Now, it's off peak. A train comes into KO. Switch to a local to Greenport. The train after that(one hour later), a local to Riverhead, and then after that(Another hour later) is another local to Greenport.
So now every station is served fairly well, and a usually long trip with a connection or sometimes even 2 connections now is a lot faster and requires no connections. This is only on those few super express trains.
As for the Long Beach super express, I meant to put in East Rockaway also, but when you think about it, it's just really an express.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fall backwards, through the door between the cab and the passenger compartment, and into the passenger compartment, banging head and chest on metal grab handles.
AEM7
Railfan Window = a window at one of the ends of a train through which a railfan can railfan (see up ahead or behind by looking through the window). Such a window can be part of the body of the car (PATH PA-X cars), within the storm door (R-40 slants), within the cab door (R-62(A) cars), or within the wall separating the passenger area from the cab (Washington, DC, and the Broad Street Subway in Philly). All examples are just some of the many examples of each type. IF anyone knows of any more types of railfan windows, please post them. Also, a railfan window at the back of a train is called an "anti-railfan window."
On certain railroad cars (I think the last time I saw them was on an Adriondack Amtrak heritage car), there is a hole in the floorboard that you could lift up, and see the tracks. You will get a great view of switches and crossings. Those are called SUB-railfan window.
On dome cars and catenary inspection cars, you can look up and see the catenary, as well as look ahead and see the whole view of the track in front of you. These are called SUPER-railfan window.
In the driver's cab of certain Turbo trainsets you could look out of the front and even if you hit an insect or a bird, the carcass will be blasted off by the power of the streamlined wind. These are called TURBO-railfan window.
AEM7
No, its a Railfan Hatch.
These are called SUPER-railfan window.
Those are Railfan Skylights.
The Breda cars on the Metro Red Line in Los Angeles have this type, as well as the cars in Baltimore and Miami (joint order).
WRONG. These are examples of Railfan Views (or Railfan Portals). A Railfan Window is a window that directly seperates the interrior passenger area and the outside of the train in either the first or last car. Anything requireing two or more "steps" is a View/Portal. This is not to say that Views/Portals can be quite enjoyable, they just don't reach the level of the RFW.
I've seen these on some R62's Are there any that remain, or are they all gone.
...giving a view like this:
So we were off and our first uneventful photo stop was Broad St, one of two closed stations we had all to ourselves. Plenty of room for me to run around (I never ran so much like that, read on.). After leaving Broad St, we got word that the rain has lifted and we were informed that the Brighton express tracks were available for our use. Instead of a mediocre photo stop at Avenue M (not much platform width to move around), we got Church Ave as a drop-off point, take next Q to any stop to Kings Highway and do a run-by. The train will pick up those who went ahead at Kings Highway. I elected Newkirk Ave for some photos, the train passed by me as a NYCT worker saw me taking pictures, and I told him I was on the MOD excursion train. I managed to run into the newsstand outside the station entrance and got a Toasted Almond ice cream pop because I was hungry and went back in. At the station I saw a friend who later on was hard-headed at Kings Highway. I told him who was with his daughter and saw the train passing by , specific instructions NOT TO BOARD THE TRAIN if he saw it, but when we got to Kings Highway he saw the consist and attempted to board it anyway. He was escorted out but not before he started yelling and cursing at the crew. My apologies for this matter, it should never get out of hand like that and goes to show why some people don't listen. Soon we went to Ocean Parkway and did photos there, and then we were of to Stillwell. Lots of work is still needed at the largest single station in the system but the newest addition is a web like dome towering near the closed off overpass. We went directly to the West End line, did not pass by CI yard until later on. Lots of track workers at the track switches under the Belt Parkway leading to the Stillwell yard side. We stopped at 25th Avenue for the next photo stop and I took advantage of the S/B platform. Soon as I went down the stairs, everyone else was following me for photos. More track workers were at the middle track, (every other W train ended at Bay Parkway) watching the consist and us in action. We took off on the local track to 9th Ave for a drop-off point, the train will loop around 38th St Yard and pick us up back at 9th Ave, middle track. I stayed on the yard run and saw mostly diesels and work trains there, along with a school car in the distance. Also saw the outside of Jackie Gleason bus depot next door. Looped back to 9th Ave upper level, we did not use lower level, and then headed up to Whitehall for lunch. Me, Chris R27/30 and another Subtalker headed to Burger King on Broadway to surf the internet and I posted the lunchtime report at that point. Not to mention checking my email too.
After lunch, I made a dumb mistake; I tried to go UP AN ESCALATOR WHICH ONLY GOES DOWN. That's what you get for viewing attachments on you web site you use, darn it. We all went back to Whitehall but it was going on 4 PM when we had the second half of the trip to cover. First order was the Subtalk group photo then hitting the Sea-Beach. So we quickly went via. Sea Beach line as follows: Drop-off at 59th st/4th Ave, take an N train to any stop between 8th Ave and Kings Highway, then pick up at Kings Highway (assuming you took the next N train there after the runby.). I elected Fort Hamilton for the runby, and I had the N/B platform all to myself (I'd figured everyone was using the curved 20th Ave station.). I tried the overpass across the street from the station entrance; the concrete wall was too high for me. I went back to the N/B platform and took photos on a R68 N that was in service along with the usual slants while waiting for the runby. After the runby, I took the next N train to Kings Highway and made a daring move, I stood at N/B platform at the train was coming in on the S/B side. But the train stopped AT THE SOUTH END OF THE STATION BY THE CREW OFFICE, which forced me to run up and over then the entire platform length just to catch it.
Now for some more good news, hate to rub this in but it was 5:30 already and the Culver portion was scrapped for what else? ANOTHER RUN UP THE BRIGHTON LINE AFTER CI YARD. We looped around yard and Belt Parkway and saw all the trains we drooled over, many of us had 3 to 4 trains in one picture. Saw some museum trains in which one person said to a TSS that the Low-V outside the CI barn needs "some work", YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING "the Low-V needs A LOT of work" the TSS replied. Went up the flyover to the West End line, split left for the direction to Stillwell and passed by Stillwell station again. Then the best part (but the night killed off some of my pictures) was TWO runbys on the Brighton line as follows: 1st drop-off at Brighton Beach, take a Q train ahead to Sheepshead Bay, Neck Road or Avenue U for the first runby. After runby, take next Q ahead of the MOD train sitting at Kings Highway to your SECOND runby, which will now sit at Church Ave as a pick-up point. I did Sheepshead Bay and Cortelyou Road, but it was so dark at Cortelyou that the shot from the side stairs was killed off but the flash. But I got back on Church Ave and stayed on till the end at Whitehall, now our revised drop off point, and said good-bye to everyone and went on the Q train home.
What a trip, it's been 20 years (no kidding) since I rode the Triplex as a kid and she is beautiful. But a big, gaping hole by one of the doors prompted a big step ladder to block it for safety reasons. Great trip, great run.
Thanks for the eloquent verbiage for Sunday's MOD Trip.
Also for the mention of the absent SubTalkers\Branfordites.
The calendar man & I did do Saturday's jaunt, which you missed.
So overall, many did participate in our own way. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
It's hell to ride on Metro-North and CTtransit by bus, but it's worth the jaut. Well worth it.
til next time
I would be honored to meet the man who holds the largest and worlds greatest collection of NYC Subway and other transit photos across the country for 4 decades running. Truly an honor. There is no one like him that bridges the old generation with the new generation with his massive photo collection. Bar none!
That BK KIDS Icee workin it's trick on you, brahhhhh? :P :)
Sometimes I'd rather hike to the F train at Homelawn/169 st station, because I know it will be there.
All of the information signs were properly signed as "Local", so I don't see what the problem is. On any normal morning, the signs always say the right things.
This past weekend, during the GO in which all trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza, every train was signed "Times Square". I complained to the MTA via its e-Mail at mta.info, and received a pro forma response saying that there is no time to set the signs correctly and they don't have crews at Times Square or Queensboro Plaza to do it.
Service changes are confusing enough, but not to change the signs over the whole weekend is inexcusable. There are fewer trains on the weekend anyway, and even fewer when the route is cut almost in half; how hard is it to change the signs one time?
I ended my note to the MTA like this:
"How lazy are the train crews, how lax is the supervision, how weak are the TA policies, that allow this to happen."
Usually, at Times Sq, the Express is on Track 2, while the local is on Track 1 (from what I've seen).
That's right because I've never seen a train half A/toFAR ROCKAWAY and the other half A/to207 ST/MANHTN :-P
Even more likely is you'll see a whole train with incorrect signs. F/JAMAICA/179 ST when its heading to Avenue X.
I once saw an A train signed for all three of its possible terminals (this was on one of those rare weekends with no GO's). I think it also had a mixed local/express identity (good thing it wasn't also signed as a C).
The T/O CAN, but there are some out there that feels signs are the C/Rs job and won't touch them. All I'd do at that point is inform Control Center and be on my way.
On one rare case on the A what I did is between 125 and 59 went to the last car and set them from there, but this obviously requires a long express run to be done. And I only did it that once (beginning of the rush).
Usually when one C/Rs panel will not work, the other won't either. If the control panel is physically damaged only, then the alt position should work.
The one thing I never understood is: when the problem's electrical, the 2 control panels will not agree, and one of the usually reverts to a previous destination. However if the T/O sets it from their position, it will be set correct for the entire train. Go figure.
And this works for the R143 as well. I had one where the interior signs displayed lines only. Recycled the breaker, and the sign, after the next stop fixed itself (minus the (L) which is apparently only programmed to display at the terminal). I learned later however this isn't allowed. I guess its better to have broken signs than to play with the breakers on the R143.
Now, I'm just a train-luvin' yutz. I claim no in-depth knowledge of the rails, operational-wise. But I do know that with most computer systems, a re-boot does allow the default system parameters to be freshly applied. If the signage system is pc-controller based it definitely makes sense the fix occurs. Especially if we're talking about an architecture that uses RAM. Cold booting is s.o.p.
Now I was just thinking about this. When I drop the breaker for the side signs, the units goes out. However when I reset the breaker, I get "System Initialize... Please wait". looks like its rebooting. but the contents of RAM are restored from what it was previosuly.
Also most of the time the problems are with the displays, for which the routines would be in ROM.
He was referring to the in station signs at Main Street which are always correct.
> Service changes are confusing enough, but not to change the signs over the whole weekend is inexcusable. There are fewer trains on the weekend anyway, and even fewer when the route is cut almost in half; how hard is it to change the signs one time?
Get yourself a hex key, turn the rollsign from one en from another, and find Queensboro Plaza. Then inform train crews where they can find it.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
It's busy most hours of the day, and sometimes, the "Next train" signs mislead people. Then, the big kicker, the CROWDS! Especially at the Roosevelt Avenue/Main Street entrance. It's like a fish trying to swim upstream in rapids! Whenever a train discharges, they seem to come en masse up the stairs. I had one experience last Friday afternoon where people were four deep trying to get to the stairs I was going down on, and, the worst part, the train just stayed there for, like, 2 or 3 minutes before closing up and leaving. Needless to say, I was still battling the crowds as I heard the chorus of "ding-dong" from the train's doorbells. They should make designated "Up" and "Down" stairways there to improve the traffic flow, maybe have everyone exit through the turnstyles in the middle and have inbound people traffic on either side and then go down the first stairways, putting non-fare-collecting turnstyles at the bottom of the stairs to enforce traffic flow.
They have this at some stations, like Grand Central. No one pays attention to it and uses whatever staircase they like.
For instance, one day last week, I was late to work because all Q and W trains were running through the tunnel. I had just gotten off a 3 train at Times Square (which would have taken me to Atlantic quickly), and I had just let an R go by at Times Square, when the announcement was made. Between the additional local stops, the congestion in downtown Brooklyn, and the 8-minute wait for an N at 36th (we didn't manage to catch that R even though we ran express on 4th), I was 10 minutes late to work when normally I'm 15 minutes early. If I had known before stepping off that 3, I would have been early; if I had known before that R left, I would probably have been just on time. (Next time I hear an announcement like that, I'm going right back to the IRT platform. The big killer was the congestion, with six(!) services sharing the Montague tube, and the IRT bypassed all of it.)
For instance, one day last week, I was late to work because all Q and W trains were running through the tunnel. I had just gotten off a 3 train at Times Square (which would have taken me to Atlantic quickly), and I had just let an R go by at Times Square, when the announcement was made. Between the additional local stops, the congestion in downtown Brooklyn, and the 8-minute wait for an N at 36th (we didn't manage to catch that R even though we ran express on 4th), I was 10 minutes late to work when normally I'm 15 minutes early. If I had known before stepping off that 3, I would have been early; if I had known before that R left, I would probably have been just on time. (Next time I hear an announcement like that, I'm going right back to the IRT platform. The big killer was the congestion, with six(!) services sharing the Montague tube, and the IRT bypassed all of it.)
Where is this place called "EXPRESS" that the train is bound for?
If the signs say local and don't change, does that not clue you in that there aren't any expresses running? C'mon, get rid of this obsession for expresses. I don't know how anyone (don't worry, you're not the only one), can let several locals go and still wait for the express.
2:STOP PRAISING THE EXPRESS LIKE ITS GOD!!!!!The express doesn't save you 20mins or whatever like every other moron who rides the subway thinks it does!More often than not the local your "precious" express passed at some point is gonna pass you because the tower decided to let the local go ahead of the express for whatever reason so just take whatever damn train is there and enjoy the damn ride!A ride's a ride no matter what train your on!
Uhh....you do save about 20 minutes on the express. I timed it.
And the only time the local would pass you is right before Queensboro Plaza, but sometimes the express gets to merge in first. Riding the express to Queensboro Plaza, I always pass at least two locals, sometimes three.
It depends on which train is there first. The interlocking at Rawson St is automatically controlled during the day, and the point at which the express gets the lineup is further from QBP than the point at which the local would get it.
The local only takes about 33 minutes to get from Flushing to Times Square. Are you suggesting that the express manages to make that trip in 13 minutes? Are you suggesting that the 7 express, unlike every other express in the system, saves a whopping two minutes per local stop skipped? (The rule of thumb everywhere else is about half a minute per local stop.)
No express anywhere in the system saves 20 minutes over the local. The greatest time saving anywhere is about 10 minutes, on the Lex, or a minute or two more if you want to include the entire 4 route. (The entire A express run, in Brooklyn and Manhattan combined, only saves 10 minutes over the local.)
It also seems that expresses tend to have more terminal-related problems than locals. This morning, I was on a Q local, headed to Brighton Beach. An express passed by at Avenue J. Guess which train got into the terminal first. That's right, the local! The express was apparently running a few minutes ahead of schedule, and it had to wait for the next express to leave the terminal before it could enter.
At least that inferior Washington system has them(so they can announce when the system is going to shut down!)
Say it's 20 years from now, and the SAS is finally finished, with a connection through to the Bronx for a yard. The time comes to redo the signals and track on the Jerome Avenue Line. Why not extend the SAS north out of the yard to recapture the Jerome Avenue Line? You'd just have to shave back the platforms and you'd have the same capacity you do now with 8 car trains, since the cars are wider. Extend the platforms on the Jerome Avenue to 600 feet and capacity is way up.
The line could go underground, for an easier connection to the Concourse at 16st Street station (just one flight of stairs), then rise to the elevated structure north of 161st. In exchange for a new line with larger and more comfortable cars, Jerome Avenue riders would have to stop at 3 more stops to Midtown, and 8 more to Lower Manhattan. But for destinations on the far east side, or in Times Square (via the Q), the ride would be faster. You'd be removing most of the 80,000 passengers per day on the Jerome, and some existing transferees from the Concourse, in addition to those the existing proposed line would remove from the Lex -- many of the 200,000 passengers on the Upper East Side and some transefees at 125th.
The #4, meanwhile, could relay north of 149th. Perhaps the station at 161st could be kept for gameday, if Yankee Stadium were to stay where it is. The #4 and #5 could become the locals, with the #6 the express. No doubt the Lex would refill, given its location right in the heart of the business district, but with far more elbow room than before.
As I said, this would be SAS phase 6, in the distant future. Worth a thought, however, if the Bronx wanted it.
Slap! Slap!
Wake up to the real world!
It's going where all other SAS plans have gone. Down the Tubes!
avid
-2 tracks north to capture Jerome Line, 2 tracks east to capture Pelham line.
-2 tracks north to capture Jerome Line, 2 tracks west along 125th St to Broadway or further [borrowed from David's idea]
-all service straight north to tie into the Concourse, then extend the Concourse east to Co-Op City, 3 tracks.
The FRA website mentions this on one of their pages:
" Passenger and Freight Services: FRA oversees and provides financial assistance to Amtrak and administers financial assistance programs to demonstrate high speed rail technology, to reduce grade crossing hazards in high speed rail corridors, to provide for investments in small freight railroads and other rail projects, to plan for high speed rail projects, and to plan and deploy magnetic levitation technology."
I think [Florida was] trying to get some grants from TEA-21 and some other federal area possibly, but if this puts them in FRA jurisdiction, I can't really guess.
What’s the difference…nobody is going to build LGVs in Florida.
Physical connections to freight mainlines have nothing to do with it, so long as you do not run faster than 125 mph on the mixed-use tracks. You are getting FRA/FTA separation mixed up with this issue (the LRT issue).
http://206.103.49.193/nyc/htm/bqt653.htm
Here's a question for those Brooklyn streetcar fans out there. How long was 5300 in service on B&QT? Along the same lines, how long was PCC car "A" in service? (I don't know its proper B&QT number.) I know that of the four 1934 test cars, the two Chicago Surface Lines cars both ran until about 1948, when they were taken out of service and replaced by postwar PCC's. I know nothing about the service lives of cars "A" and "B" though.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Hey all, I just did a major update of my page on TransitGallery.com. Now I have some 21 Amtrak shots, 15 or so NJT Rail and bus shots, as well as a new round of K-car and PCC shots that I took yesterday in and around the area of Elmwood Depot.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/WdobnersPhillyshots
How many years will it take for people to get the hang of there being a 5 second delay?? Drivers must be on the verge of going postal.
Tho I never doth recall an r21/22 with the filling.
But not to worry, everybody packs their own upholstery these days.
--Mark
Jimmy
til next time
The ERA has been very good about doing railfan trips, althought not on the last day or last month. Another of these was in the P72 coaches behind Push-Pull (Alco FAs or END F7s) before the DE30s arrived.
ROW in Levittown follows
Pardon some of the dim images. My camera seems to have a real problem with light levels. In some situations even with the exposure compensation up to +1.0 its still dark. Guess thats why my camera is called DIMage! Gotta get back there and get some more worthy photos!
Ever heard of the Brightness, Contrast and Gamma settings in PSP or whatever you use?
Problem is the photo does appear slightly blurry. Using a sharpen filter would add tons of noise.
I never see anyone else's photos come out this dark, and I have to wonder if its my camera. Seems to have great difficulty in auto compensation finding the right light, forcing me to adjust it upwards. As you can imagine, this makes subway photography more difficult. The camera has difficulty most at midday, and when there are partly cloudy skies.
This is the camera I use Minolta Dimage E201
Hempstead line: Floral Park-LIRR Crossing(Where Hempstead line turns south)
Central line: Bethpage JCT to Belmont JCT
Montauk line: Belmont JCT to Patchogue
To Patchogue? I thought that was the South Side Railroad who's line ran to Patchogue. I thought it went down the current Central Branch to Babylon, and then to the Babylon Waterfront (or was that the LIRR)?
R32s also run on the E line, as well as make some rare appearances on the F and R. Based out of Jamaica Yard.
til next time
But the ERA suggested they were going to republish #2 a little while ago. Wonder what happened to that?
Centre St Loop:
ENY-BBway-Williamsburg Bridge-Chambers-Brooklyn Bridge-Fulton St El-ENY
Never completed
The Centre Street loop, I have no Idea.
Look at the West End and Culver service:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/Bmt39wf3.jpg
I think it's clear to understand that the trains runs a loop
DeKalb-bridge-Nassau-tunnel-DeKalb (and reverse)
Dory: If they had been built as planned this is what it would have looked like.
The two tracks from the Williamsburg Bridge would enter Manhattan at Essex run south along Centre Street and use the two west tracks at Chambers Street Station. They then would have returned to Brookyn via the Brooklyn Bridge. Hence the Centre Street Loop.
The two tracks from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge would have entered Chambers Street Station on the two east tracks and continued south on William Street and returned to Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel. By the time the BMT got around to building south of Chambers Street they switched the route to Nassau Street. Hence the Nassau Street Loop.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
R-32.
Mark
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
The cars are a bit larger -- is that the reason?
False.
Define classic-style. The R-32 has a lot more in common with an R-142/43 than with a Composite Hi-V.
R-32.
b) Do you like getting yelled at?
Mark
I found a page about the Centerline project on OCTA's website, but I didn't find any timetables.
Mark
They're still arguing over where it's going to go, still doing studies, etc.
I doubt it will ever get built.
Sounds like Second Avenue. But then again, the people in Orange County haven't been arguing since the early 1920's.
As George suggests, I've heard 1889...but I've also heard 1923 is when if OFFICIALLY became OC.
That'll give me something to do over the weekend....
Mark
Mark
And there are decent eateries right around the station....a small snack cafe inside the station, The Old Spaghetti Factory, a burger place, another Italian place. And a couple very short blocks away Taco Bell.
Just the thought of going to a Taco Bell in California, where there probably is a Del Taco not far away, absolutely boggles my mind.
Normal speed on the line is 70/50 passenger/freight
Current speed is as follows:
Overbrook Int 60/x on 4
Narberth Station 15/10 on 4
MP 7.0 and Bryn Mawr 60/x on 2
MP 7.4 to paoli 60/x on 1
Bryn Mawr Int 50/x on 4
Bryn Mawr to MP 16.2 60/x on 2
Bryn Mawr to Paoli 60/x on 3
x means no restriction
See, not as bad as you thought.
Speaking of that, I can verify that the tracks from the abandoned Bergen line segment have been completely removed. I had a good look the other day, going through Secaucus. Looking southbound, both tracks have been ripped out. Including the ties. Couldn't tell if the gravel was still there -- it looked like an ordinary dirt road to me...
Today only two of these survive. 1000 at Kingston and 1001 at Branford.
Larry, RedbirdR33
N1 Posing at 25th Avenue (West End Line)
R-40s GALORE! At CI Yard
R-68A 5150 Exiting 25th Avenue South
Picture Of Triplex 6112a
Picture Of Triplex 6112b
Picture Of Triplex 6112c
N1 at 9th Avenue Station
Slant 40 at Bay Parkway (Very Nice)
Locomotive 6 at Bay Parkway- Picture 1
Locomotive 6 at Bay Parkway- Picture 2
Locomotive 6 at Bay Parkway- Picture 3
Black and White Picture of N1 at Whitehall Street
Black and White Triplex at Whitehall Street
1st Picture of the New Coney Island Station
2nd Picture of the New Coney Island Station
3rd Picture of the New Coney Island Station
4th Picture of the New Coney Island Station (The Best One)
Locomotive 6 and an R-68 on a Collision Course!
Locomotive 6 and Triplex’s Side by Side with an R-68 (Best Picture)
9 R-46’s and an R-32 line up for the camera at CI Yard
An R-127 side by Side with a Slant
A Beautiful Picture of Locomotive 6 on the Curve entering Beverly Road
Locomotive 6 at Broad Street
An Overhead Shot of Locomotive 6 from 9th Avenue West End
The M and Q Side by Side, Guess the Car Model!
Photo 1 of N1 at Church Avenue
Photo 2 of N1 at Church Avenue
N1 Posing Bay Parkway
N1 Posing at Broad Street
N1 Posing at Broad Street using Flash
N1 at Chambers Street
An Overhead shot of N1 from 9th Avenue West End
N1 at Sheepshead Bay
A Side Picture of N1
An Overhead Shot of R-62a 5122 N Train From the West End Yard Approach
A Beautiful Shot of the Bay from the Ocean Parkway Station
An Old Fashioned Style Picture (nostalgic fans will enjoy!)
Locomotive 6 at Ocean Parkway Picture 1
Locomotive 6 at Ocean Parkway Picture 2
N1 Posing Nicely at Ocean Parkway
3 full Length Slant Trains, a Q, a Q again then, an N!
2 Q Trains Pose beautifully aligned at Brighton Beach
A Rush Picture of Locomotive 6 Side by Side with a Q Train at Brighton Beach
R-68a Posing with N1 at 25th Avenue
N1 and a Slant Together at Bay Parkway (rush Picture)
Photo Of the West 8th Street Northbound Platform
Drop me an E.. Have a Q for you.
SF
Are both at the same station?? Wao.
That's not an R62A.
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, "P" is believed to be a contigency service run in the event of Amtrak or LIRR trouble in NYC. Express from Jamaica Center via the J/Z and Chrystie to 8th Av
An Amtrak strike means no service on the Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast and Raritan Valley Lines. Somewhat blameable on NJ Transit, though…the former CNJ bridge across Newark Bay is gone, which they could have built an alternative route into Hoboken Terminal for the RVL and NJCL at least instead of forcing them through the Amtrak bottleneck…
Though Shea, LIC, and Woodside all = 7.
Jamaica = E, J, P?, and with a little walk F.
Far Rock Branch people should probably go to Far Rock and take the A...
Flatbush ave will get nice and crowded, perhaps they should suspend work and open all inhabitable space up to handle the additional crowds...
I don't get WHY the unions are doing this, and IMHO, it's a really dangerous move. If they strike, and nobody notices, they've just sent the opposite message. If they strike and things are a mess, lots of people gets pissed and congress sees Amtrak as a management, financial AND labor mess. If they don't strike, their credibility is blown to shreads. If they piss Gunn off and off Gunn goes, that's it for Amtrak. They're striking over money issues. The public tends to not be sympathetic towards unions, and with Amtrak's infamous level of service, it may not get anyone's sympathy at all.
Worse? It's a desperation move. They're threatening to go away if congress doesn't stop trying to make them go away. Screwy logic.
Management has it bad. If they crack down, they kill labor relations. If they don't, they lose points with congress at a much needed time.
NO MONEY FOR AMTRAK
MEANS NO TRAIN SERVICE ON OCTOBER 3, 2003
Join us and send a message to President Bush and the Congress not to kill Amtrak
Congress has failed to appropriate sufficient funds to guarantee Amtrak service after October 1st.
Earlier this month, Amtrak’s President said, “Our infrastructure and equipment is in such dire need of repair and investment that on any given day something could fail as it already has—and large parts of the system could be shut down or the necessary consists for trains could not be met.” Some of the cars you ride in today contain asbestos, it’s there because Amtrak cannot afford to remove it safely.
Amtrak’s employees will not stand by idly and watch Congress kill Amtrak. We will protest the inadequate funding by withdrawing our service to Amtrak nationwide on October 3rd. Please join with us and call your representative and senator and tell them to give Amtrak the funds it needs to maintain and improve its system.
This withdrawal of service will shut down Amtrak operations on the Northeast Corridor and may affect commuter operations as well. We apologize in advance for any inconvenience to you; however, if Amtrak shuts its doors permanently, every day will be like October 3rd.
Boldface type as in the original, capitalization is mine: the original notice was all caps.
I wish Amtrak employees the best of luck, but I don’t think a strike here is going to help any.
John
There *is* a big book of medical acronyms on my shelf, over 600 pages.
When I was in nursing school, we had a patiend with PVCs. Another student asked me what a PVC was, and I told her it was PolyVinal Chloride.
No! She said, and we looked it up in the book.
A medical book.
PVC = Poly Vinal Chloride.
It *did not* mention Premature Ventricular Contraction.
So much for Acronyms.
Elias
It sure would make killing Amtrak easy. No employees, no RR.
CG
NO NO NO!!!
If anything skip-stop should be extended for the LIRR strike to get those 'burbanites to Manhattan relatively quickly.
How about:
(J) 9tph Jamaica skip-stop
(M) 6tph Myrtle-Chambers
(Z) 9tph Jamaica skip-stop
(E) Add Extra Peak Hour Trains
No can do. That's why 3tph on the E go to 179th St already.
If anything skip-stop should be extended for the LIRR strike to get those 'burbanites to Manhattan relatively quickly.
NO NO NO!!!!
Skip-stop service does nothing. Super-express service is better. They really should stop at Broadway Junction, though...
(E) Add Extra Peak Hour Trains
No can do. That's why 3tph on the E go to 179th St already.
Yes can do. 2 more tph can come from the tail tracks if properly used.
It is now officially a crime in NJ to “drive drowsy,” especially if you are involved in a serious to fatal road accident behind the wheel. Given that many commuters drive in that “impaired” condition, though, plus the not-so-nifty public transportation scene within the Garden State, what feasible choice do many of them have…? When it’s a choice between a half-hour drive or a two-hour bus ride (each way), guess what the first choice will be. A lot of buses in NJ do not have the frequency necessary to be a viable alternative to driving, not to mention that there are still many railroads in NJ that are freight-only…so where is the compromise?
Although, however, I do suspect that there won’t be any en-masse pulling-over of drivers with droopy eyelids…but you are acknowledging a serious problem by passing this law while at the same time doing absolutely nothing about providing an alternative…(but I guess that’s what to expect from a governor who uses the state helicopter more than any of his predecessors.)
I can see it now ... like our cops upstate who hang out near gin mills waiting for easy pickin's, Jersey's finest will be hanging out witing for people to stop and get coffee. While it sounds well-intentioned (as do most bad laws) this one strikes me as pretty dumb. The good taxpayers of Jersey *SHOULD* start putting in parking lots every 5-10 miles now for sleepy drivers to use or the lawsuits will be impressive. Whenever I need to head south, I do so through Binghamton, PA and the Virginias, so I don't go through Jersey - but for anyone who does, I'd consider suing to get those "rest stops" built.
I don't think I-78 has a single one, although there is one just across the bridge into Pennsylvania (but IIRC it might be westbound-only). I-80 has one open to the general public, and a nearby scenic overlook, and I think there's a third one that's only open to trucks. (I'm not counting the quasi-rest areas in the Delaware Water Gap area.) I'm not sure offhand about I-195 or I-295.
But I haven't been on a full-day roadtrip in over a year, and that time I cheated by spending the night with friends in Pittsburgh in each direction. My last all-day drive without stopping midway was in September or October 2000.
An interesting experience, but not one I recommend going through on a regular basis.
I'm not observant of Kashrut myself; if I were, and didn't take my own food with me, my lactose intolerance would mean I'm in trouble here (even with the lactase pills...)
What about a vegan meal at a health food place? If I'm not mistaken, kosher rules involve meat and dairy products, so animal-products-free vegan food should be okay. Or do I have it wrong?
If grape juice is handled by a non-Jew, unless it has previously been boiled, it becomes non-kosher. This stems from a law regarding wine, but wine and grape juice are considered equivalent. This is a problem particularly in blended juices, jellies, and the like, since grape juice is often used as a sweetener.
A pot, dish, etc. that has come into contact with hot non-kosher food and later comes into contact with hot kosher food renders the latter non-kosher as well, unless the pot has been purged of its former status (by dunking in boiling water, or by heating it until it glows, or by any number of other methods of purging, depending on the particulars of the case).
Even a very slight contamination is a problem, whether deliberate or not. Let's say that a (supposed) vegan restaurant buys its cakes from a bakery that greases its pans with lard. This should cause an uproar in the vegan community, but, not being a member of that community, I don't know if how widespread the notion of vegan certification is. Not only would such a cake be non-kosher, but if the cake is later warmed at the restaurant, then anything that was warmed with it also becomes a problem. Most Jews who keep strictly kosher will stay away from any processed food without kosher certification, even the sort of processed food that doesn't appear problematic, with a handful of exceptions for products with particularly strong government regulations or particularly standardized processing routines, like milk and most pure (unblended) fruit juices.
Any cooked food fit to be eaten by a king (yes, that's the legal standard) must be cooked by a Jew -- or, at the very least, a Jew must be somehow involved in the cooking process (e.g., by turning on the stove or by stirring the soup). (I've heard that one of the major certification agencies once called the White House to ask if the president was served potato chips. I don't know the answer.)
Those are the major concerns in a nutshell. If you think that's crazy, just wait until Passover.
There are a number of vegan restaurants around NYC that have what I'll call minimal kosher supervision. The rabbi knows that there's very little that can go wrong, and only comes in once in a while for spot-checks -- and to light any pilot lights that have gone out. But outside of NYC and other large Jewish communities, there just isn't enough of a market for restaurants to pay for even minimal supervision -- that is, if there's even anyone there qualified to supervise.
and to light any pilot lights that have gone out.
No one else can even light the piolot light? Wow. I sure do give you credit for sticking to your beliefs (I even cheat on the Friday thing once in a while!). I know this is completely off topic, but if there's a fairly quick answer, why all the fuss with food? There must be a reason.
OB-transit, located near the Essex Street JMZ station, I ate at the famous Katz's deli a few weeks ago (really good food, BTW, best knish I ever had, oh, and their pastrami on Rye!--to die for). Anyway, I can guarantee though that it is not a certified Kosher place though, as I think I remember seeing Cheeseburgers on the menu, which I thnk is a real no no, and they are open Saturdays. Can a restaurant even be Kosher even if they serve non-kosher food too?
Correct, that place is most definitely not kosher because it is open on Saturday, serves non-kosher food, and has no kosher supervision. The latter reason is a result of the former two. As such, no, a restaurant can not be kosher if it serves non-kosher food.
In general, no, a restaurant can't be kosher if it also serves non-kosher food, because of the dish/pot problem. The only exceptions are places like Friendly's, where the ice cream (and only the ice cream) is kosher. Ice cream is cold, of course, so the transfer of status doesn't take place, and the dishes aren't a concern. (Still, I know some people who ask for disposable take-out cups and utensils to avoid even the dishes. I guess they're not too worried about the scoop itself.)
Why the fuss with food? Depends who you ask. Perhaps it's to elevate even the mundane necessities of life to a spiritual level. Perhaps it's to remind us that food is ultimately a divine gift (for those who believe in the divine -- which I assume includes most observant Jews). Perhaps it's to demonstrate the importance of compassion to animals (kosher slaughter is painless, and the separation of milk and meat could possibly symbolize the separation of life and death) without outright mandating vegetarianism. Perhaps it's something else entirely.
(The laws against drinking wine touched by a non-Jew and eating food prepared by a non-Jew are both rabbinic in origin and stem from a concern that if Jews and non-Jews spend too much time eating and drinking together, they'll end up intermarrying.)
(The laws against drinking wine touched by a non-Jew and eating food prepared by a non-Jew are both rabbinic in origin and stem from a concern that if Jews and non-Jews spend too much time eating and drinking together, they'll end up intermarrying.)
Yeah, that one really perplexed me, but it makes a bit more sense now.
The Catholic faith has eased up on the intermarrying over the years. At one time, I think you were not allowed to get married in the Catholic Church if both weren't Catholic. Now they allow it, as long as the children are to be raised Catholic.
Maybe in 1700. Not in the 20th century, at least not according to the official rules. Individual priests or bishops may have acted on their own.
Maybe this particular prosciption is something mdern-day Jews can do without. After all, what it really means today is that you can't eat unless there are no non-Jews eating at your table; that you must essentially not eat just because the non-Jew sitting next to you accidentally poured your grape juice and thought he/she was being courteous...I could see where a non-Jew could justifiably take offense at something being taken to its absurd end.
I know there are colonies of super-duper-ooper-uber-orthodox who do wall themselves off from the rest of society.
I am a Jew, but would want no part of that. My close relationships with Jews, Muslims, atheists and Christians etc. have offered me much joy.
It doesn't mean that at all. I eat around non-Jews all the time. I even go to bars once in a while. And about getting offended? Puh-lease. All New Yorkers know about Jews. And if they don't, they will learn. There's no reason to get offended once you have the knowledge of what is going on.
It doesn't mean that at all. I eat around non-Jews all the time. I even go to bars once in a while. And about getting offended? Puh-lease. All New Yorkers know about Jews. And if they don't, they will learn. There's no reason to get offended once you have the knowledge of what is going on.
I even had a delicious kosher meal with Choo Choo and David once, although I didn't pour drinks for them. It's not as extreme as not being able to eat at the same table. About bars, how do you know if the bartender is Jewish if he pours your wine? Is it just wine or does it apply for beer, etc too?
Especially in NY, many people are used to different cultures (although I never heard of the wine/grape juice pouring aspect until now). I think that is what makes this such an interesting city. It's not personal, it's beliefs. I would never get offended though if someone said it was part of their beliefs, but me being the type of person I am would probably get in trouble by accidently pouring someone's drink out of courtesy if not realizing it.
I was asking, in a sense rhetorically. However, the underlying premise from ancient times (that the Jewish religion will be destroyed if there's any mixing at all of any kind) is pretty absurd.
For me, since I reject the underlying premise, I don't worry about who's pouring my grape juice (or anything else) - unless, of course, there is an immediately valid reason for a specific person that I know about (contagious disease etc.)
But interaction in everyday life is very different from interaction within the family. If I have one set of strong beliefs, and my wife has an entirely conflicting set of strong beliefs, then how can we possibly raise our children to treat either set of beliefs seriously?
OK, that's a lot more sensible. And each persopn decides for himself/herself how to do that.
"If I have one set of strong beliefs, and my wife has an entirely conflicting set of strong beliefs, then how can we possibly raise our children to treat either set of beliefs seriously?"
Good question. I have close friends who are Orthodox. The husband is quite pragmatic; the wife very dogmatic. The husband has confided privately to me that he thinks his wife goes overboard, in the sense that the extreme separation premise that I described applies to her, and she tries to enforce it with the kids; the husband tries to moderate this. They are devoted to each other, and I know this conflict causes him some pain.
They open their home to me; I have stayed with them many times. I return the invitation. Now, I do not keep a kosher home, but were they to visit, I actually have a separate kitchen I would allow them to use, and could supply separate utensils, and dishware, or paper plates etc. I would be happy to obtain kosher food for them, and since I am Jewish, presumably I can pour the grape juice too. I don't follow all this on my own, but I want to be a good host, and want my guests to feel welcome.
The wife refuses (politely, but refuses nonetheless). It's as if my home would be this alien planet or something...:0(
AFAIK, just wine :) So no wine in the bars. BTW, there is a way to get around the wine pouring issue. I'm not gonna get into it here, but in the real world, the issue does not really come up often.
Look at any kosher restaurant in midtown Manhattan the next time you're here. You'll see observant Jews and non-Jews happily dining together.
Sure, we could throw out this rule because we don't see the need for it. But if we started throwing out all the rules that we don't see the need for anymore, we'd be left with something that doesn't resemble traditional Judaism one bit. Is that really the sort of thing we want to do?
I'm not so sure we want to do away with it anyway. The rabbis instituted the law to counteract a problem of intermarriage. Have we solved the problem of intermarriage? On the contrary, it's worse than ever. Perhaps we should think twice before nullifying a law that was specifically enacted to help solve a problem that we still have today.
Maybe you don't see intermarriage as a problem? At a personal level, perhaps it isn't (the decision is yours). At a national level, it's a major problem: with isolated exceptions, children of intermarried couples do not seriously identify as Jews.
Way back in my high school days, Manischewitz kosher wine was the drink of choice for many of us kids even though none of us, as far as I know, were Jewish. It was cheap and sweet, not so good if you're hosting an upscale dinner party but ideal if you're 15 years old and looking for a quick buzz.
To me it's indistinguishable from Robitussin.
LOL! I once tasted a chocolate liquor (an after-dinner dessert alcoholic beverage with the consistency of a thin milkshake). My reaction was, "Why do I want to drink cough syrup for dessert?"
But then most liquor connoisseurs would think my comment was pretty stupid...
You've never had a Flaming Homer Moe?
Haha! Yeah, Manischewitz is pretty bad. But speaking of Robitussin, I think Jaegermeister is even more like Robitussin, or more so like NyQuil with a kick.
Yeah, I know, I was just trying to give a hair of on topic by mentioning Essex Street, and couldn't think of anything at the time to bring it into context, and Katz's was still fresh in my mind.
Unfortunately they do charge Kosher prices without the obvious extra costs that Kosher restaurants incur.
Paahhhleeeasse! It was over $30 for two for lunch meals of knishes and sandwiches. Well worth it however, but it is far from a cheap meal!
Hey, I remember seeing that place on film recently! :)
Oh wait, this thread's been off-topic that's why. :)
My commute is 75-90 minutes by train and bus but under an hour by car. However, since I have to wake up early and my body still hasn't quite adjusted to the new schedule yet, I often find myself sleep-deprived. Sleeping while driving is a bad idea; sleeping while riding the train is fine (until someone plays a guitar in one's ear, as happened to me yesterday on the Q train just after drifting off).
A related reason that I take the train is that the commute is a perfect time to get work done, but it's kind of hard to write up lecture notes while driving.
Also, I'm on my feet most of the day. I invariably get a seat on the Q train in both directions. Given Brooklyn traffic, why would I want to spend another hour or two or so each day stepping on the brake?
And parking at home in Manhattan is a pain. If I get home in 45 minutes but I have to circle for parking for another 45 minutes, I haven't gained anything.
A parking permit at work is $110 per year. That's about as much as a single parking ticket at home. I leave the car here at work and only bring it home if I'm going to need it there (say, to go to Branford over the weekend) or if I have car-oriented errands to run en route.
(Okay, so I've drifted off the topic of the thread, but I've pulled us on-topic for SubTalk.)
I pay to park at Vernon-Jackson in LIC (a lot cheaper than East Village). I take the 4/5/6 and 7 to my car, then drive to QC. Total time, 35-45 min, less than all public transport and usually less than (and far cheaper than) all driving.
Today, for instance, I parked at Kings Highway on the Brighton line (Quentin Road, to be precise). (Somehow I had gotten the impression that I wouldn't have trouble finding parking around there. Ha! Well, it's better than Manhattan.)
I still haven't found an implementation that's faster than subway to subway to bus, so it's back to the B1 for me.
I usually drove to and parked in Manhattan instead of parking near Kings Highway.
Where in Manhattan, and what time?
There I was minding my own business in Lower Manhattan heading home to Park Slope, when what should happen but a R40 slant shows up at Cortlandt Street. Well, let's see where this goes. I must say riding the Sea Beach line for the first time was quite an experience. Do T/O's usually change shifts at King's Highway, or was there some other reason for the T/O change? Get to 86th Street, saw a guy(girl?) dressed all in black hanging out the track-side conductors booth on the second to last car of an inbound train. weird. get out take a little walk to the F train at Avenue X, and see an R32 pulling out as I approach the station. Damn, I missed it. Knowing my luck the next 3 trains will be R46, I thought. Fortunately I was wrong and the very next train was another R32. Whoo-hoo! has anyone else noticed the weathervane just south of the Manhattan bound platform at King's Highway on the F? Gotta get a picture of that next time. Anyway the trip back to Park Slope was fantastic, containing the aforementioned view of the skyline spread out like a buffet dinner. so what if I got home and didn't get the laundry started until late. it was worth it.
Now if that's not a bona fide Railfan field trip, I don't know what is.
--Z--
--Z--
MD Recorder: Check.
Camera: Check.
Microphone: Check.
...
And the other rails offer fun diversions too. Just last week, I managed to situate myself at the Floral Park LIRR station, in order to catch the last of only three daily connections from there to Mineola on the Main Line. I got there (on a Monday morning) at around 6:45. Some observations:
1. Lot of train service variety on morning rush hour. Plenty of trains westbound on all three possible tracks. And eastbounds also. Hell, at one point there were THREE westbounds within the station area all at the same time! First time I ever saw anything like that in my life.
2. The rare east to Mainline train I boarded was filled. The reverse commute was popular. Note: seems like the Rail could look into a few more of these reverse branch-hybrid routings.
3. Mineola is one busy location. There were many dozens of exiting passengers there from every east and west-bound train stopping. Surely this will on get more prevelant as the years go by. As it is, Mineola as office/transit hub is going strong right now.
Or maybe it doesn't significantly affect subway service. I hardly think that every mishap on the subway needs to be front page news, or even fodder on Subtalk. The TA is too busy to be engaged in "cover-ups" for every slip on a banana peel.
Besides all the news agencies have their sources (and I am sure a radio scanner is one of them). To them a derailment is always news.
If this one is, you'll see it sooner or later on NY1, or the Daily News, or on 1010 WINS, or whatever...
> Or maybe it doesn't significantly affect subway service.
Besides blocking a few putins, therefore significantly affecting the 7's normal headway, it didn't really affect service. Like you said, hardly newsworthy.
If a train blocks not just the president of the Russian Federation, but also members of his family, that's significant news.
wayne
It was posted on the board yesturday by djf179. I saw the damage myself yesturday workign at Corona Yard.
Yes, its true.
Please try to be more mature about your posting.
> Please try to be more mature about your posting.
And that statement WAS mature??
I was reacting, not entirely seriously, to a post complaining about the lack of comments to a mishap nobody hears about and whose significance was (???) I'm sorry you took offense; perhaps if I had added a :0) th meaning of my reply would have been clearer. But I assume you've been posting on the board long enough to understand the contexts...
The infamous TA gag order. If we can't even share the GOs for MOD trips (even though one poster has done so), I think that everyone who works for the TA sees a derailment as real taboo.
Non-flight or safety-crtical items can and are out of order, broken etc, and the plane flies anyway. But to a lay person with no understanding of the significance of a given malfunction, this can cause unnecessary fear.
If the line were any reflection of the Mets, the #7 would never have any service.
I just got annoyed because everyone's jumping on the guy spreading rumors instead of waiting for more info. May be all he knows at the time.
Unfortunately I drove to work yesturday and didn't bring my G3. although I doubt the Signal Mtrs would have allowed me to take any pics.
"Unfortunately I drove to work yesturday and didn't bring my G3. although I doubt the Signal Mtrs would have allowed me to take any pics."
I'll say it again - you have to eat, and you don't jeopardize your meal ticket for Subtalk. If the TA were to do something really dangerous and illegal and you felt you had to jeopardize your career to save lives, then I understand and applaud. But not for Subtalker curiosity.
Don't wory, I wouldn't. I'm sure my father, who also worked for the TA would be interested to see them, and I could show my kids who don't believe rails existed because we'll be be driving flying cars, that at one time bad things happened when a railcar obeyed the laws of physics. :)
That's fine. I have no problem with that. They don't owe Subtalk anything, and they do owe their employer full cooperation and adherence to regulations.
"The incident is too new and likely still under investigation at this point for this to leak out"
Absolutely. But even after the proper investigation takes place, it doesn't mean Subtalk folks are entitled to a full rundown.
It was nice of you to post the picture (but you had no obligation to do so). The most important thing is that no one was injured (I hope).
NOPE! They were all moved to the Montague Tunnel in 1962.
Elias
wayne
Yes, its true."
So what?
And it wasn't even a Redbird...
Go back to bed, TeeRay.
Until we get PROFF that a redbird derailed... the crane it is.
Go back to bed, TeeRay."
Hey Beavis, car #9684 IS a redbird and it did derail yesterday AM. Maybe you should take two asperin and go lie down now.
It was a redbird.
The actual car is still unknown.
> How can a train derail and the railroad not know what cars have derailed and which ones did not?
Simple. Until an investigation was done, they didn't know. When the train had finally stopped, all wheels were on the rails.
If 2 cars had damage how does one know which one had derailed w/o an investigation if its still said only 1 axle derailed? Of I guess you're just that good, huh?
I never stated mine was the "final word" just what I knew when I left Monday (away from work 2 days, and yes, I stay away from work so I have no clue what went on those 2 days till I get back).
How is it interesting that Mr. Bad may or may not work in Corona Shop?
>> Um how so?
> How so, what?
How is it interesting if I should work there?
That's RIPTA42, I like that: "Mr. Bad" :)
Thanks.
David
If the (suspected) cause got out, you'd have many riders wondering how safe the system really is.
Besides, you know what happened...
...somebody thought they were on the CPW of old while going up the Corona yard lead. :)
BTW for anyone that might take that serious, don't. That was not the cause.
Spit happens though ... I don't even HAVE to go into what I think about those rustboids, I've said it before. Nice when they were in good order, but they NEED to go away. After a personal inspection of some of them on the mainline back in 2001, *I* won't ride 'em. :(
Can't blame the crew though. That's good for a change. :)
Get over it.
Ron, I responded to this comment you made. Taking a cue from another subtalker, I checked the database. FOr the month of September I posted 104 times or about 3.5 posts per day. On the other hand, for the same period of time you've posted 988 times or 32.9 posts per day. Now, I ask you, ronny, which one of us needs to get a life?
Good for you. Did it make you happy?
"Now, I ask you, ronny, which one of us needs to get a life? "
You do. It reflected the quality of the post and the obsession of the poster I was responding to. Yes, I poked fun at you for that post. It doesn't matter to me how many or few times you post, and it's not relevant anyway.
1020
Add to that the problems that the test trains have had with the 3rd rail.
So Tee-Ray - assuming we ever hear from you again on this board, I look forward to hearing who your creditable source is.
The NYC Subway is not a religion (although some may act as if it is) faith has nothing to do with it. Facts are what count here.
IIRC, it was a dismal failure.
Yes, but...
Can that be said to be an honest test?
The test should run for several weeks, so that people, including riders get used to it so as the do not get in their own way.
Elias
I doubt most riders even noticed, save for the fact that express service was run on a weekend.
Yes, and so the line was not afflicted with crush loads, or with hundreds of people waiting for an 11th car that wasn't there, and thus holding up the line while they relocated.
To be an honest test, all of the bugs have to be worked out of it.
Maybe the test must be run with 11 car trains to eliminate the loading problems. Once it is running smoothly , then it can be decided if it could be sustained.
I suspect that it cannot be sustained.
The Main Street terminal is too complicated, delaying trains through the interlocking.
There is no reason why that line cannot run on a 90 second headway.
To do so you would have to:
1) extend the line to Northern Boulevard with dual turning loops under the LIRR station plaza,
2) extend and create turning loops beyond times square, probably at Javits center,
and 3) Eliminate express service, to eliminate the merge problems.
Elias
That is NOT an option.
That is NOT an option.
: )-
I was only suggesting what it would take to get a 90 second headway on the line, and still keep things running in order.
If you do not mind some delays and disorder at the merges then you may keep it.
Elias
In any event you still did not address my first point - the fact that the Corona facility is not able to service the R142/142A's yet.
Since the rebuilding project is not scheduled to go full swing until 2004 how would they service these trains and a regular basis.
Answer: They wouldn't. All those trains would have to be sent down to Coney Island for even the minor of repairs.
If you look at that Newsday article:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--subwaycars0921sep21,0,6275530.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
You will see that it says:
"More streamlined high-tech cars built by Kawasaki and Bombardier will replace the cars by mid-October, the Daily News reported in Sunday editions. "
and
"The Redbirds did a great job serving New Yorkers for more than four decades," NYC Transit president Lawrence Reuter said. "Though they have been a New York City icon, they are being replaced with a new generation of subway car that gives up the nostalgia factor for increased reliability and an overall more pleasant riding experience."
Knowing Newsday reporters penchant for getting things wrong the "streamlined high-tech cars built by Kawasaki and Bombardier" would refer to the R62 and R62A which were buildt by those 2 companies. Larry Reuter's comments easily refer to to the R62 and R62A as they are a new generation of subway car as compared to the redbirds.
Now if what you say does come to pass next year, I can assure you that the Bronx politicians would raise just as much a ruckus as the Queens politicos did. Remember it was the Bronx uproar that has prevented the TA from making the #2 express in the Bronx and the #5 local in the Bronx during Rush Hours.
I also saw your response "Sources..." Since you won't give even a smidge of creditable evidence no one in here is probably going to believe anything you say from this point on.
One thing that is very important on this board is credability. If you bother to read most of the postings giving information, you will see that we indicate where the information came from.
Enough of this nonsense.
No, I think the article refers to the 142/142As, which are replacing the Recdbirds in the A Division as a whole, not just on the 7 line.
Why? other than repairing the Air Conditioners, what repairs cant be done at corona?
That is certainly true. You can also run it in ABA configuration. It doesn't matter, so long as horspower to weight remains satisfactory (B cars have only 2 motors per car).
As long as you raised the subject, quantitatively, what is a satisfactory horsepower to weight ratio for a subway train?
Each A car has 4 motors at 150 horsepower each; each B car has two such motors. So, the more B cars in your consist, the lower the hp/weight ratio (even though you save the weight of 2 motors per car).
A standard ABBBA consist has a total of 14 motors x 150 hp = 2,100 horsepower available to pull 5 cars. Average Empty weight per car is 35 tons, so 5 cars x 35 tons = 175 tons. HP/weight ratio is 2100 hp/ 175 tons = 12 hp/ton. This ratio goes down if you fill each car with 200 people weighing, say an average of 175-200 pounds. 1000 people x 175 pounds = 175,000 pounds or 87.5 tons. Now your hp/weight ratio is 2100 horses / 262.5 tons = 8 horses per ton. That's certainly sufficient. I don't know that 4 horses per ton would be sufficient to stay within guidelines.
I can be persuaded that you could run a subway train satisfactorily even if the A cars had two of their motors cut out (based on the operational trials of the R44, in which the TA actually did that. The R44 still accelerated to 77 mph).
However, fewer motors per car means you have less margin. What if a motor malfunctions? How many dead motors can you have before the train has to be taken out of service? However, I imagine that would be a rare event, so the TA isn't worried about it (hence two motors per car is deemed OK).
Clarification: the train was empty at that time. It would have a harder time full, but would still probably do adequately. Lose another motor or two? Maybe then it's a no go.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
David
Really? Let's see: The 1,2 and 3 trains can run R142s, and you didn't say the 5 or 6 lines were giving them up.
Meanwhile, the Queens IND is running R32 and R46 trainsets, and only Brooklyn has the new R143.
So the 7 is to get R142s now, so each borough can say it's got a piece of the new action.
The 4 was running Rustbirds not too many years ago, so what's the big deal?
See, Teeray, there's always more than one possible explanation. But it's always easier to simply accuse somebody of screwing you than thinking through the possible rationales logically.
Oh, and we have to assume you actually are conveying this piece of news correctly (meaning this action is really being taken. Until you prove that, or until somebody reports seeing loys of new R142s in Corona Yard, I'll withhold judgment.
Either way, you're ranting over nothing.
It is also possible that the R142 deal, if this is reported correctly, is part compensation for Manhattan getting new subway extensions and East Side Access. A bone, if you will...
Since the 142/142a is currently configured in 5 car sets the 7 will now discard 11 car trains for 10 car trains?
More info please!
R-32.
LIES ALL LIES.
Like most of the people who responded I would love to see your sources, then again you do work for a agency that's known to do retarded junk like this. But I'mma be a little skeptic for now.
Okay, I was at an MTA Board Meeting! Or maybe I had lunch with Larry Reuter. I'm just TeeRay, and no one here knows me. How would you know that I'm telling you the truth about my source if I gave it up. The source is reliable. Believe what you will.
BTW, since you have connections how about suggesting to the MTA send the R62's back to the 4, since Lenox and Livonia arent treating them like they should be treated.
Then TeeRay is guity of his SINS.
For years and years, whenever new cars came in, they were almost never assigned to the L line; instead the L line always got hand me downs and was probably the last line to use the old BMT standards.
But with the knowledge that it is one of the lines that does not share tracks from start to finish, MTA has apprently decided to do the computerized running on it hence the new cars.
Not a criticism, mind you, but a statement of the realities of life in the big city (and of the necessity of catering to the interests of politicians and ultimately those who supply the bug bucks to them.)
Before the R-143's came, the L had the newest equipment that would fit on the line.
So much for your conspiracy theory.
The rare exceptions I've seen are almost always in favor of the groups conventionally thought to have the least political power.
For example, the current routing of the 5 in Brooklyn limits capacity on the 2/3 -- not only in Brooklyn, but all through Manhattan and the Bronx. Given that 2/3 crowds in Manhattan are greater than 5 crowds in Brooklyn, it would make sense to reroute the 5, even if doing so would require that many people make cross-platform transfers at Franklin (which many of them make already if a 2 happens to show up first), so that the crowds in Manhattan could be reasonably accomodated. (Note that I'm not even suggesting a reduction in Brooklyn service. Service on the 4/5 would remain at current levels; service on the 2/3 would increase.) At an entirely objective level, this change would make sense. But the Brooklyn politicians would complain that NYCT is taking service away from minorities to give to the rich Manhattanites. Even though that's not what's happening, the press would jump on it and NYCT would never get away with it.
A more subtle example has come up in many recent discussions here. On weekends, the D runs mostly empty in Manhattan, while the C is erratic and crowded. At night, the A and D each run on 20-minute headways. In either case, moving the D to the local track would save a lot of waiting time for a lot of passengers, while the handful of through passengers would only lose 3 minutes. Yet every time the issue is raised, it's construed as "Manhattan screwing the Bronx" -- never mind that it's being suggested based on objective calculations, not borough warfare.
The only possible example I've seen of what you describe is the 157th Street station. It's a skip-stop station. It's riders don't save any time from skip-stop, but they still have doubled headways. To make matters worse, 157th is busier than any of the stations to its north -- so a large number of Harlem passengers have to suffer so that a small number of Riverdale passengers can have a faster ride. One could argue that this is due to political influence. Personally, I doubt it -- given how little sense skip-stop makes to begin with, I'd rather chalk it up to general cluelessness.
Look at Queens Boulevard. Four routes. Until 2001, three went to Manhattan and one didn't. Now, all four go to Manhattan. What fraction of (rush hour) Queens Boulevard riders (whether they live along the Queens Boulevard line or travel there from elsewhere) are bound for Manhattan? If the fraction is greater than seven-eighths, then all four routes should go to Manhattan; if the fraction is smaller than seven-eighths, then one should go to the Crosstown line. Based on ridership observations, it's obvious that well over seven-eighths are bound for Manhattan.
In other words, it's a simple matter of numbers. Along Queens Boulevard, the V is of use to more people than the G. It doesn't matter if those people are rich or poor, black or white, male or female, young or old.
The other cars you see on the L are R-42's, dating from 1969-1970. Every B Division car order between the R-42 and R-143, aside from the nine-car experimental R-110B order, was for 75-foot cars, which cannot fit on the Eastern Division.
So the entire Eastern Division, including the L, is filled with the newest cars that can fit. The older R-40's, R-38's, and R-32's run elsewhere -- on the A, C, E, F, N, Q, and R.
How about checking your facts before making accusations?
I am not an expert on the subways; just a rider. Of course, I might have my preferences too based on my own individual rider preferences, that is basic human nature. Whenever something happens that might be better for the group as a whole but hurts you individually, you are upset and no amount of logic will easily disolve that anger. Withness the fuss being made by some about switching the B and D in Brooklyn. Folks bound for places along the 6th Avenue route feel very much that they're being done in by an uncaring bureaucracy. No amount of logic will convince them that the MTA is doing what's right for the majority of the passengers. They fall back on the argument that Bensonhurst politicians have more clout that Flatbush politicians and who knows if that played some role in the decisions made there. I doubt it but who truly knows.
None of this is a new phenomenom...it's been going on for years. Just to throw out another example and please don't yell at me, why wasn't a free transfer instituted years ago at Livonia between the current L and the current 3? I know they've closed the entrance at the IRT station closest to the BMT station but it sure would have been a very convenient transfer for many. One has to believe that some sort of politican consideration went into the decision not to set up that transfer back then.
These things go on all the time. Why, for example, are the toll booths always on the Brooklyn or Queens side of the bridges and tunnels; never on the Manhattan side? In trying to set up tolls on the East River bridges, long before EZ Pass, the plans always called for the tolls to be collected on the Brooklyn or Queens side, never the Manhattan side. I am sure some can give very good logical reasons for this; but to others it does smack of playing favourites to Manhattan over the outer boroughts.. It's sometimes just a power ego trip. Even the very thought of imposing tolls is being done to protect Manhattan from the influx of Brooklyn and Queens residents (how come they're not talking of tolling the bridges between Manhattan and the Bronx?) As another example, when changing area codes began 18 years ago, it was the outer boroughs which were forced to change their area codes to 718 ruining all of their stationery forcing residents of the outer borughts to sacrifice long lost friends who might never know about the change in area codes and would be unable to call them from the old country. A small point, of course. But another acknowledgement that some groups sometimes get more favorable treatment than others.
It's just the way of the world and the only point I am trying to make not trying to criticize the decisions whether good or bad.
While that may be true sometimes, it certainly wasn't a general rule. Many lines got hand-me-downs.
In the 50's the Eastern Division got their brand new R16's. Okay, now the Eastern Divison had it's turn, the R27-30's came, and they went to different lines at first (granted the ED did inherit them later, but they weren't that old when the ED got them). The R32-R40's came and they also were distributed elsewhere at first. By the time the R42's came, they were distributed throughout the system, and the ED got some too. Even the KK had them sometimes. By this time, all the lines had cars in bad condition, and the ED own "new" cars, the R16's were basket cases, but so was the whole system, they didn't put the R16's there because they were basket cases, it just was an unfortunate fact that they were.
By this time it seemed that the ED had the oldest cars, but at that point the R44-46's were the newest in the system, and they couldn't run there anyway, so there was little choice. In addition, by the late 70's to early 80's the ED had all the various 60 foot cars running on it from the R16 to the R42. Then the R16's were scrapped and by around 1986-1988 the ED was running the newest 60 foot cars in the system, the cleaned up pre-GOH R40's, R40M, and R42's with blue doors (along with red R30's mixed in, and a few R16s on the M). I still see no problem here.
Finally, it beacame mostly red R30 when the R16's left, and the R40-R42's were out for GOH. And guess what! When all the stainless steel cars came back, guess what the ED got - the newest class cars that could run there - the R42s! Still no problem here.
Finally, new 60 foot cars are ordered once again, and guess who gets them, THE L (and M), and the J soon to follow. Somehow, I don't see how the ED was so shortchanged in rolling stock. The only time it seemed to do badly was when the wntire system was in shambles, not just the ED.
What is your source that the #7 and #4 lines will swap car fleets? First things first:
1. Corona Yard is slowly being renovated, the current yard does not have the resources, nor the space to hold R142 trainsets. It will not be done by March 2004. And are you implying that ALL the trainsets will be swapped at once? Impossible, it's since April 2003 that the #7 line is receiving R62A sets, and they are still transferring cars from the #3 line to the #7 until all the redbirds are finished.
2. The Lexington Ave line is the line chosen for ATS (Automatic Train Supervision). Not as advanced as CBTC, but the program will still require all R142(A) sets on the Lex. So how will ATS function when the #4 line will be R62A? And if the #4 line will be R62A starting in less than 6 months, then why are they still putting in new R142/R142A trainsets?
3. The #4 line needs about 300 cars, the #7 line needs over 400 cars to maintain current rush hour service levels. If the R62A's are sent to the #4 line, and vice versa, where are you going to get the additional 100 cars needed on the #7 line? From the #5 and #6 lines? No way, you can't touch those lines. From the #2 line? Maybe. But it would be weird to have R62A and R142's on the #2 line, it needs almost 400 cars because it's the IRT's longest route and running times need so many cars.
. The Bronx gets screwed again.
Looks like YOU haven't visited the Bronx lately. Have you noticed new signals on the WPR line that are displacing the old IRT style signals that have been a fixture on that line? Pelham and Jerome lines already have new signals (Jerome signals are about 10-15 years old, Pelham had signal modernization back in 1996-99). Concourse line is starting a $180 million signal replacement project. Did you notice the renovations taking place at numerous stations on Jerome and WPR lines? Oh, and I forgot to mention that 174th st is closed both side so that NYCT's contractor can expedite renovating the stairs and both mezzanines.
PPLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEE! Don't tell me about the Bronx getting screwed.
Pssst...he lives there. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't say the same for Bronx bus service which he is only correct. Bus service on some Bronx routes is overcrowed and sub-par at best.
What about the E and F? The E rarely runs down 8th Avenue on the weekends(Though it seems like nothing gets done).
What about the Rockaways?
Queens isn't left out. And sooner or later the Astoria line will get its needed attention.
R-32.
R-32.
Well remember the 7 line will be the pilot line for CBTC in the A division, so it will need New Tech cars soon. Since the next car class after the R-160 will most likely replace the R-32 and R-46, we are three car classes away from seeing any New Tech cars ordered to replace the R62A, so obviously R-142/A are eventually going to have to go to the 7, though where they come from is up for debate.
R-32.
Also, there are not enough B cars to make a 6-car set and a 5-car set. During all times of the day and well into the evening, all 11 cars may be crowded, especially on northbound trains.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
What the hell are you talking about? Jerome to 180 is a simple matter of a relay 138th St middle, and up the White Plains Rd line. Corona to Coney means running down to Hunters Point, reverse, switch over to Astoria middle at 39 Ave, reverse, run down Broadway, then BMT Southern Div to CI, as well as a car with dual trip cocks must be at each end.
G's subway photos
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-R33ML's @ Corona Yard
-A (3) train in Queens?
-A "mystery track" on the LIRR
-The entirty of NYCT's fleet of Viking buses
-Pics from on board a (7) train running along MC track
-Old rollsigns on an R68
-Tablets from the IND north of 59th St
-A few signs that still need to be updated (34th St, 145th St)
-Lowery, Rawson, and Bliss back.
and
-Two R32's connected at their A ends (when they should be connected at their B ends).
Check out Transit Pictures 48 at TransferPoint. (Transit Museum => Transit Pictures => 48 on the Site Menus) and tell me what you think!
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Thanks. That's what I assumed. Now maybe this will end those posts saying "your post was stupid, stop wasting bandwidth on SubTalk."
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
Subway.com.ru
www.CulverShuttle.com
We should do a webring, or at least have a links exchange... You link me, I'll link you.