John Snow, CEO of CSX, Treasury Secretary. No surprise THERE either.
The "low ball" game has been played by MANY a contractor to "clinch the deal" ... in EVERY case, the vendor has rued the decision to do that. The STATE always wins. And for subway cars, State 7, vendors 0.
If Alstom goes bankrupt, both Alstom and the state lose.
And if all else fails, then Honest Al will probably get AM General (The makers of Hummers, OK to look at, awful to ride) to build a plant in Patchogue and crank out railcars until they go broke like everybody else. And like always, the suckers will line up since Wall Street LOVES big sales quarters, as long as the profit downsides are in ANOTHER quarter. :)
Budd never went under.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
He's a robot?
Perhaps that's when the Concourse peaked as well. Must have been a cool place to be in the heyday, with new art-deco apartment buildings and a new express subway line taking you down to Midtown or up to the parks in no time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps the partners foresaw the coming of the automobile and the resulting decline in ridership. These days, rather than 15 trains per hour on the local and express, you very briefly get 15 trains per hour on both of them put together.
Auto ownership is probably not the reason for lower ridership on the Concourse Line today vs. the 1940's. It's not the sort of area where most people have cars. I'd say it's because fewer people who live in the area are working, hence less commuting.
This implies that ridership could rise once again, as on the L line, if more workers move the area.
September 4 , 2002
New housing opens in Highbridge By Steven Gnagni - Managing Editor
Welcome to the Highbridge housing boom. In mid-August, tenants began to move into a new building at 900 Ogden Avenue here in Highbridge. Meanwhile, construction is moving along on several other new buildings in Highbridge, and even more buildings are in the works. The new building, located at the bottom of the hill on Ogden Avenue, is nine stories tall and has 120 units - a mix of studios and one and two bedrooms. Eighteen of those apartments are wheelchair accessible, and are set aside for tenants with special needs. The apartments all have wood floors. They are equipped with smoke detectors, a sprinkler system, and cable hookups. There is also a community room, a laundry room, and two elevators. Tenants are moving into the building in phases, with more tenants moving in throughout September. The apartments were only available to residents earning up to 60 percent of the area median income. "[This new complex] represents quality affordable housing - something that's greatly needed in the Bronx," said Marc Altheim, one of the principals of Atlantic Development Group, the developers of the building. Atlantic Development Group worked with the New York City Housing Development Corporation to arrange the financing. The developers used tax-exempt bonds, tax incentives from the city's Housing and Preservation Department (HPD) and federal low-income tax credits. Atlantic Development Group is also working on two other buildings in the area. One, located on Merriam Avenue between 168th and 169th streets, will have 95 units and is slated to open sometime this winter. The other, which is now in the planning stages, is located at 1314 Nelson Avenue, between 169th and 170th streets. That building will be seven stories tall and will have 115 units, and will use similar funding as 900 Ogden Avenue. Atlantic, however, is not the only company developing in the neighborhood. Summit Development Partners plans to break ground in December or January on a building at Summit Avenue and 165th Street, according to Justin Stern, a partner with Summit. "We're currently working on the design, and it will be approximately 40 units," Mr. Stern said. "We're still working on the financing, but they will be affordable. We think it's a great idea - a good population base, and we feel it would be a successful development." Mr. Stern also mentioned Summit might be interested in expanding the project should any neighboring property become available. The building is slated to be a six-story building, and Mr. Stern said he hopes to have the building ready for occupancy in early 2004. The other big developer in Highbridge these days is the Highbridge Unity Center, also known as H.U.C. According to CEO Jorge Batista, H.U.C. is planning a number of properties: a building at 172nd Street and Shakespeare Avenue with 72 one bedrooms available to seniors over 62, which should be finished in February; a building at 1275 Nelson Avenue, which will have 82 units for seniors over 55 and should also be finished in February; eight townhouses at Ogden Avenue and 169th street, which will be completed in January or February; and a number of other townhouses on Shakespeare Avenue and Jessup Place. Construction on these last townhouses will begin next spring. H.U.C. is accepting applications for the apartments at 1275 Nelson Avenue through October 1, and applications for apartments at Shakespeare and 172nd will likely be accepted in December. Finally, the city's Housing and Preservation Department (H.P.D.) is rehabilitating a number of buildings. According to a spokeswoman at H.P.D., the agency has rehabilitated over 600 units in Southern Highbridge over the last seven years. H.P.D. renovated seven city-owned buildings and then sold them to local nonprofits - H.U.C. and Belmont Arthur L.D.C. - through the Neighborhood Opportunities Work program.
All Contents Copyright 2002 Highbridge Horizon and Highbridge Community Life Center
Not impressed. The ability of an area to attract subsidized housing is constrained by the City's willingness to not build mass transit improvements and not fund its schools. When affluent enough people are moving in to attract unsubisized housing, and decent enough people are moving in to make it feasible to rehabilitate housing without subsidies, then the West Bronx will come back.
So it's time once again to throw up the same old tired quote I throw out here every so often ...
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
... or as Homer Simpson would say, "Oooooo ... tax cut." (drools)
This sort of reminds me of the debates Ron from Bayside and I have had concerning downtown Jamaica. He cites the recent increase in government and/or subsidized commercial construction as signs of the area's comeback. I maintain that it's premature to talk of any comeback unless and until there is unsubsidized private development.
Right. It isn't that subsidized development isn't valuable. It's just that there is a limited amount of it that the government can afford, limited in part by the amount of unsubusidized development available to tax. Unsubsidized development is not limited by the budget, and (if successful) tends to attract other unsubsidized development.
Note that any new development (or increase in property value due to rehabilitation) in New York City outside of Manhattan south of 96th Street is exempt from property taxes for years and years and years. This is in contrast with "welcome stranger" assessment policies in most suburban jurisdictions.
So the idea that the outer boroughs cannot attract development because of taxes is wrong. The concentration of wealth in Manhattan pays the taxes. Without it, we'd be Buffalo.
You say D'Amato and I say Po'tato ... you say it's murky, and I say Paturkey, D'Amato, Paturkey, Bruno, Gullota, let's call the whole thing off?
I don't know about that. I'd say there's too damn many cars, try finding a parking space after 8PM, damn near impossible.
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot about that, but yes it is widely known that the middle class who didn't want a house of their own in Westchester nonetheless decamped when COOP City was built. And for what? A bus to the train and a long commute?
Objectively the Concourse has better housing, except that if you live there now many of your neighbors will be poor and some troubled. I keep hoping that (since the Bronx is the Latino borough) the Concourse will become the "in" place to live if you are Latino. Maybe if J. Lo moves there.
Ha!
Think about this. Here is an area that was once home to the uppercrust, and still has many nice buildings. Planners can make plans, public officials can make infrastructure investments, you can have promotional campaigns, etc., and nothing happens.
But, if someone with a good body and a good voice moves in, and convinces some well known friend to do the same, BOOM -- it's like DiNiro in TRIBECA.
It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
At least J. Lo titled one of her albums after a subway train (On the 6).
No. It's much much better in this case. :)
"At least J. Lo titled one of her albums after a subway train (On the 6)."
My favorite musical subway reference remains that of Bob Dylan:
In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the keychain
And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the D train
We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight...
Which of Dylan's songs is that?
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/visions.html
I'm sure some people here like her for THAT music video [besides her looks of course] ;-).
What's interesting is that Co-op City has remained a reasonably desirable place in which to live despite not getting the promised subway service. I suppose there's a lesson there, one that's not necessarily a good one for advocates of expanded subway service.
Hmmm. Ya know, you can never tell about demographic trends in this town. What's known today as the "xxx boro" could easily take on other characteristics as the years roll by. Look at Brooklyn. Whole lots of eastern Europeans living and moving in. They are expanding their "turf" fairly quickly. Never know...the Bronx as the next "..."in" place to live if you are Slavic."!
Hey, as long as they take the subway it's all good.
I had thought that much of the Bronx was in decline well before Co-op City opened. While the Concourse still might have been a relatively decent area in the 1960's, the trends were all downward.
Its hard to imagine that the Concourse line once had one line that had 15tph and now as you said its 15tph on both the B and D. If the line were built with 4 tracks it would be more busier but you have the Bx1/2 overground via Grand Concourse which does take some of the potential crowding the Concourse line could have and I bet that if not for the 1/2, it would have more hours of peak express service.
That is a heavily used bus route, given that the subway runs right under it most of the way. Who is using it rather than the subway?
Peace,
ANDEE
the Bx2 does NOT run on the Concourse the whole time, plus the Bx1 is on the Concourse BEFORE the B/D show up at 167 St
Those B of T hearings must have been pips (does anyone have a picture of John Delaney smiling? Every picture that I've ever seen of him shows the face of someone who looks like he died about an hour ago, and it seems as if that carried inot his dealings with the public, elected officials, and community groups). Clearly, they took no prisoners. At the same time, though, what would have happened if the "Second System" plan was implemented and the Burke Avenue extension of the Concourse line was built? Would that line or the 8th Avenue line have the train or track capacity to handle everything?
Maybe if they had gotten their way the 6th Avenue subway would have been built on 2nd Avenue, and we wouldn't be in this crush on the East Side today. The 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els would have come down sooner, and perhaps the PATH would have extended northward as part of a plan to eliminate the 6th Avenue el.
The big disadvantage of the IND is that the trunk lines are to the west, but the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn are to the east. So Bronx and Brooklyn residents have to go west and then back east to get to most of Midtown, and Queens residents have to go west and THEN south to get to Downtown.
Madison was a much ritzier street than Second Avenue, and it is between two streets that are even ritzier. No wonder the plan failed. Perhaps if they had proposed going down Second and getting rid of an El, rather than tearing up the street in from of mansions and luxury apartments and a block away from Fifth and Park, it would have happened.
If you have the chance to get to a library that has the Bronx Home-News, check out some of the articles from December 1927 to February 1928 on this issue (to say nothing of the articles that they ran in late 1929 through Spring 1930 on the "Second System". They acted like the world was coming to the end because the B of T had proposed to build additional elevated lines in the Bronx). There were some very creative arguments being made back and forth on this issue.
While designers get most of the credit for a project, they are pretty low on the totem pole in the world of government. I know, I worked in a Design Office of the GA DOT, and was involved in two road projects.
In New York bureaucrats make that kind of decision, if they are allowed. The politicans aren't interested in public policy; in fact they don't even understand it. They are interested in getting paid.
You are lucky indeed, in New York, to have someone in charge who has an idea what to do and tells you to do it. More likely you end up hoping and praying for the opportunity to do something, anything at all other than come up with justifications for the unjustifiable and do "studies.'
Might have been different back in the day.
Not to mention the fact it was ALL R-1's at the time!!!
:)
BTW, it still is a cool place to be.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just did some multiplication of the average weekday, Saturday and Sunday ridership on this line in 2002. It was only 20,134,806, just 36.7 percent of the peak ridership.
Annual ridership for subway as a whole, in contrast, was 1.41 billion, or two-thirds of the WWII peak.
This speaks volumes about the West Bronx. And remember, the Concourse line does not go through the South Bronx ghetto as originally constituted. The dense apartment buildings on the two ridges -- the one occupied by the Concourse itself and the one west of it along University Avenue -- were built for the middle class.
I wonder who close all the lines are to their peak ridership?
Peace,
ANDEE
The E train that went into the relay at 71st CTL, wrong line up on the V and cutout door on the F that was OPEN are just as serious or worse and everyone got away scot free.
Peace,
ANDEE
They felt I made a rookie screwup but the other guy made an understandable error.
Besides, it'll just make fireworks - the insulation on those ain't thick enough, nor are your shoes. Heh.
One car moves are a no-go since 1991 or 1992.
One other question, the T/O on the D, why didn't he/she read the signal correctly, if the offender did, they would not see the "D" indicator in the second pair of signals located after the first one (the PM rush D express track diverts on first signal, the regular D trains divert on second signal). You will ALWAYS see that "D" on the lower yellow signal for all D trains needing to divert at switch leading to 145th st/LL.
All of the above in addition to the T/D on duty at 59MT.
The TW/O is at fault for giving the wrong lineup, regardless of what the T/O punched.
The T/D goes down just because he was there.
The TA takes down everyone who thy can hold accountable. The exact reason for taking down the T/D I don't know, but at GC a few weeks ago a train ent BIE over a home signal and they took the T/D out of service as well as the TW/O, T/O and amazingly, the C/R.
Or maybe that's the trick right there. Just like the TW/O he's supposed to know what's there.
The TW/O sees a parade of lights (they used to be red bars on the big board, I assume they're still the same 30+ years later) ... the lights do NOT tell them what train it is, only that a train is THERE. Thus, the TW/O has to KNOW what train it is and follow it through their territory. In the OLD days, there were numerous towers along the way so at worst, maybe they had to keep track of 8 trains max in their "section" ... I wonder how many it is THESE days with all those remote towers unoccupied?
Raw deal all around for sure ... but you're SUPPOSED to know your lineups when you're in the broom closet. That's one thing they never nailed ME for. :(
A parade is right. And to respond to how many we keep track of today, I can't give you an exact area, but you can guess from the following:
Grand Central controls from Brooklyn Bridge to 125th Street.
Times Sq. Mainline controls from Chambers Street to 96th Street.
Mosholu yard controls from Burnside to Woodlawn but sees down to Mott
Westchester Master controls from 138/3 to Pelham Bay Park.
Unionport (will) control from Jackson Avenue to 241 St. Currently its E 180 to 241 St.
You mean 205th St Tower....
-Stef
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
And as for the "D", that means a two shot grade timer on the Diverging route, since it's a "downhill" to 145 ...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But I'm as perplexed as you are as to why the conductor went downtown, but it really happened. Because the MTA has NO sense of humor, I won't say any more. I'm just glad that I got out of that nuthouse back in the 1970's when EVERYONE was MUCH more concerned about the trains not bursting into flames or falling off the el. We pretty much all knew we were in the same leaky boat and tended to watch out for one another rather than bang each other in. And somehow the railroad worked somewhat without these modern day gestapo.
I guess there's a "discipline quota," ain't no other POSSIBLE explanation. :(
Jon is more than likely right, its probably something he didn't do after the fact. That's the only time the conductor can do anything. The rules state that the C/R must pull the cord at the station following the incorrect route.
Cardinals Ximinez, Fang, and Biggles burst in.
Cardinal Ximinez: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise! Surprise and fear, fear and
surprise. And fear... and surprise. Did I mention fear...and, oh, of course, silly me, surprise.
Cardinal Biggles: Cardinal!
Cardinal Ximinez: What is it, Cardinal?
Biggles whispers something in Ximinez's ear. A look of dawning realization on Ximinez's face.
Cardinal Ximinez: Normally, we would torture you until you all confessed. But, given the circumstances, I think we'll just buy a
parrot. How about that one over there?
Owner: Oh yes, the Norwegian blue -- beautiful plumage.
Cardinal Ximinez: Is that parrot...dead?
Owner: Oh no, not at all, it's just resting.
Cardinal Ximinez: Damn! Are you sure?
Owner: Oh, yes, quite certain.
Cardinal Ximinez: Let me see that parrot. (Inspects parrot) Seems dead to me. Cardinals, have a look.
Cardinal Fang: It's dead.
Cardinal Biggles: This parrot is no more.
Owner: Oh, no, no, no. It just, err, pining for the fjords.
Cardinal Ximinez: It's not pining, it's passed on.
Cardinal Fang. It has ceased to be.
Cardinal Biggles: Shuffled off its mortal coil.
Cardinal Ximinez: We'll take it!
Owner: I'm telling you, it's not... What was that?
Cardinal Ximinez: I said we'll take it.
Owner: Oh you won't regret it sir. Would you like it cooked here, or to go?
Cardinal Ximinez: We'll just take it as is, please.
Owner: That'll be twenty guineas.
Cardinal Ximinez: Here you go. (Hands the owner money and grabs that parrot) Hahahaha!
Cardinal Fang: Hahahaha!
Cardinal Biggles: Hoohoohoohoo!
Cardinal Fang: No, cardinal, hahahahaha!
Cardinal Biggles: Hoohoho...haa...hahahahaha!
Fang: Very good, Cardinal!
The cardinals run out, laughing diabolically.
Owner: They forgot to get a license...
So, before you unpack that Synclavier and start making noises like a strangled cat, Local 802 of Associated Musicians wants to have a gander at that card. You DO have a card, right? Heh.
I was away on R&R for the past month, hence the lack of postings. Now I'm trying to get caught up. Heard a few cows moo while I was away.:)
Good to see youse around!
Community whiz, and you're invited! Woohoo! Heh.
These days, I thought the nearest photographer was hauled off to jail.
Signals:
A line takes GREEN OVER GREEN on all homeball timers
D Bronx PM Express takes GREEN OVER YELLOW or first homeball by north end of 135th st (so that it can divert left for Track M).
D Bronx Local takes GREEN OVER GREEN for first signal, then GREEN OVER YELLOW for the second signal (so it can divert on second switch to the right track).
No excuses for not seeing the second signal correctly.
If that's the case then the T/O could have cancelled the punch BEFORE the train left 59 St/CC or radio the master tower.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
OK, so then it went to 168th.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll hate myself, but...
Why is it that whenever this happens, everyone assumes the T/O punched incorrectly? Contrary to popular belief you can punch correctly and still be issued a wrong line-up. When I was working on the B, if I could have gotten a dollar every time I got a wrong line-up after punching correctly, I'd have lots of dollars.
Why hate yourself, its true.
It could be accidental, or the TW/O not knowing what they're doing.
On more than one occaision I've hit the wrong exit by accident (damn buttons too close together), but fortunately was able to catch my error before the signal cleared for the train.
Another instance (I will not mention the location to protect the stupid) is where a T/O punched, but the TW/O had not recorded the time of the previous train. So the TW/O punches for the train they thought they were getting rather than what had punched... and you can guess how that turned out.
Even if they did punch corrctly, once they accept the wrong lineup they're guilty.
I'm not arguing with you that T/Os should know their routes, because they should. But supervision should make sure of this.
on the N/B D line, the Points of No Return are as follows:
42nd st/6th ave
47th st/50th sts/Rock Center
135th st.
59th st/CC is not considered a Point of No Return because either track can be used.
I'm working at Nostrand Junction. I sent a Northbound #5 train on the local track. No big deal, because Nevins St tower can cross that train back over to the express tracks, right? So this isn't a point of no return, in theory.
Now that trains gets to Atlantic Ave. Nevins spots it and attempts to cross it over, but oh crap! The switch won't lock up in reverse. Now that #5 train has no way to return to its normal route.
Or even worse, that train dies while crossing over. No now Lex or 7th Ave service.
Now I have to explain how that #5 was on Track 4 anyway.
Maybe these 2 examples are a bit extreme, but just to reinforce my theory that any point should be considered the point of no return.
Kool-D mentioned the home signals marked as points of no return. My point was that all home signals should be treated as points of no return by both the train operator and the tower operator unless permission has been given to take that signal.
People these days either don't know their job or are afraid to exercise authority for fear of writing reports.
Unfortunately that's the way it is. All it takes is for the wrong person to be inconvenienced (or just someone who likes to complain) and everyone goes downtown. Happened at Conetinental, a T/D was warned by a Supt because someone that knew him complained about trains getting runs 2 days in a row.
Especially on CPW with that complex i'locking.
Yes, he should pay the price of a small 'oops'. Depending on who showed up to deal with it, this guy is looking at up to 6 WEEKS of UNPAID vacation for this. My original point was that folks here make a bad situation worse by ASSUMING the existence of a wrong punch.
That is what you also get from dick-brained show-off operating for the benefit of the foamers. He/she might have challenged the timer and won but not the route.
If you know the history of the subways you know what your lineups are.
Yes, it created a long gap in Concourse service due to a missed interval -- but missed intervals are deliberately created all the time at local stations at the slightest provocation.
Yes, some passengers may have been dragged to the wrong place -- but, assuming the C/R was remotely awake, he would have noticed that the train was on the upper level at 145th and would have told his passengers to get off and wait for the next D downstairs, so only the inattentive ended up at 168th.
Far worse is accepting a wrong lineup that doesn't permit such easy recovery on the part of the passenger, or changing routes or bypassing stations without crystal clear announcements.
Isn't that overkill? Shouldn't the cord be reserved for emergencies? And why can't passengers who were waiting for the A or were going to transfer to the A stay on until 168?
True, but it's an indication that the T/O *may* be impaired, and it requires the Conductor to investigate, since the Conductor is "in charge" of the train (and this rule has been enforced since 14th Street).
You don't need a full blown CBTC system to get Automatic Train Identification (ATI). They used ATI on the Flushing Line 40 years ago. It can be implemented today with off the shelf commodity electronics that does not interface with existing equipment. All it takes is 802.11 a/b/g adapters, access points and an email server.
OTOH, there are more options, if the ATI can interface with the signal system. The TA spent a bundle on the Queens Master Tower without any thought of introducing ATI at the same time. They had CRT displays rather than hard wired display boards. Displaying and recording the operator's punch with the red bar is child's play programming-wise.
Now HERE'S where it gets SICK! Remember those stupid RFID tags I brought up a while back? Slap one of those "UPC CODES" on a CARBODY with its car number, throw in some LOW frequency (wide range) RF pickup/interrogator thingies, and place RF loops at diverge stations, and ATID could solve the problem.
But right now, the tower is FLYING BLIND. Back in the days of MARKER LIGHTS, the TW/O could look out the bay window when they saw headlights reflecting off the glass, SPOT the marker lights ... "green-green, D PM express, give it the center track, there it goes by my FACE ... red-green, 207th, white-white, CC, local lineup - green/white, first D local after PM rush" ...
***OH*** so easy for the tower ops ... the could SEE the damned train, markers showed up as bright as the headlights for the bay window (foamers will NEVER appreciate how BRIGHT signal heads are from the center glass - EVER!, compare to marker lights to an old-timey tower op when halogen didn't exist - that's what the FRESNEL LENSES were for) ...
But today, because some ASSHAT decided to do away with markers and bright-assed HUGE multicolored signage, you can't tell what train it is when it's stopped at the PLATFORM anymore, much less "down the hole" ... aggggh. Morons, now they need freaking CPU's to run a @!$%^#@ railroad just as much as they need a CPU to make COFFEE. AGGGH! :(
Ah, the pleasures of a Flushing Super Express back then... That can't happen if half the Flushing staff is busy sleeping right now. 8)
Thanks for the name, brah! I *knew* it was something close to what I had thought, but it was such a short phart in the history of the system that it didn't stick to the old meat-rom. Heh. Little metal toilet seats ... HOW APPROPRIATE! (grin)
The system was called Identra. The carborn equipment was a tuned circuit with 3 switch selectable frequencies. The wayside equipment was essentially a grid dip meter. It was adequate enough on the Flushing line to separate out local, expresses and super expresses.
Now HERE'S where it gets SICK! Remember those stupid RFID tags I brought up a while back? Slap one of those "UPC CODES" on a CARBODY with its car number, throw in some LOW frequency (wide range) RF pickup/interrogator thingies, and place RF loops at diverge stations, and ATID could solve the problem.
There are problems with using barcode technology in this application. The changes in ambient light level creates problems for using barcode technology outdoors. Decoding works best if the barcode is stationary and the scanner throws a moving laser beam across the barcode. Scanners scan the barcode many times to average out errors. They eventually stop scanning when the get a valid barcode. The same is true for wands, people will simply pass the wand over the barcode several times before the get a valid reading. This is not quite the context for NYCT train operations at various places.
There are dozens of ways to design an ATI system. Certainly using RFID tags, some RF loops, etc would work. However, let me reiterate an extensible low cost alternative. Each train has a computer that has a wifi card on it. The computer is programmed to send out an email that contains some information about the car number and the scheduled route. This information is entered by switch settings on the exterior.
The wayside equipment is also computer connected to both a wifi access point and the TA's intranet via their $750 million fiber optic network. The wayside equipment would append their location to the train's id email and forward the amended email to an access list that includes the forward towers.
The tower equipment is a computer that reads its email and formats the information in an appropriate display on some crt.
The point is that the equipment is off the shelf and has commodity pricing. The software is open architecture and requires just a few simple scripts. If this ATI system is completely separated from the signal "safety" system, then there is no reason not to bother with "vital circuts" and all the other shiboleths that the rail equipment manufactures have convinced the industry they need.
That all said, "IDENTRA" (thanks to ALL that have jogged my memory) turned out to be a pathetic and unreliable JOKE as far as how it worked in the TA ... it was ditched, and for good reason. It screwed up more often than it worked. If you ever *RODE* the "automated train," on the TSQ/GCT shuttle (as someone recently bore witness) that too was "ecstacy for the wiglets, agony for the geese" as well.
What is NEEDED (in the absence of marker lights, which SOLVED the problem along with MANY towers) is a reliable means of determining "is the NEXT train past X816 a D train, an A train, a B or a C. Pure and simple, those who have to pull a lever need to RELIABLY KNOW that the parade of lights about to stop at 59 *IS* a D train. When that happens, then the T/O will NOT get a bad lineup, the TW/O can yank the crank with confidence and NOBODY has to drink a few beers in able to whiz in the cup before clocking out. :)
But UNTIL then, the beakies get to play "capture the hourly" for no damned good reason. The SYSTEM sucks, why beat up on the HOURLIES? HELL, when *I* worked for the TA in the days when we had marker lights and towermen/women, you didn't *GET* a bad lineup ... that's the reason for my passion on all this - progress is SUPPOSED TO MEAN IMPROVEMENT, not five steps back into chaos and primordial soup. :(
Oh yeah, Shrub got appointed. Nevermind.
They showed up even brighter without the headlights.
Tom
Foamer glass is cool and all, but MOTORMAN GLASS! Woof! BLINDING! Hell, you could even spot your STEEL off the reflections! :)
You can see the mount for one of the barcode readers outside Mosholu Tower on the yard lead.
Also its right smack in the middle and blocking the catwalk. Ah the brainiacs at the TA.
But an RF ID transponder that could identify a SPECIFIC train would do wonders to relieve the problem now (and I expect CBTC will be an answer here with whatever else it does) as far as indetifying "*THIS* train is 0704 Delta Brighton" ... if a tower had a marker on the board that spelled out "release 12, 14 and 16, set 11, 17 and 18 for THIS train, it's the D that left Brighton at 7:04AM and it's late ... anyone at the levers could breathe a sigh of relief KNOWING that this puppy's going to the Bronx and they can have another poppy seed bagel. :)
And you didn't hit the GT50, but unfortunately it cleared slowly enough that it jolted you enough to let go and so you STILL went BIE. Go down for the piss test now. I'm going to suggest 15 days. :)
But man ... 15? Business days, or "proletariat calendar days?" Ya gotta love the way the swine have it rigged ... 15 days can be either TWO weeks, or THREE weeks, depending on spinmeister. :)
We have FOUND the weapons of Mass Distraction!
That's how I'll work it with you. I mean I know you couldn't stand 15 days away from an Arnine could you?
Man, that completely CHEWS ... when you were shown the street back in MY day, you sat HOME and "contemplated your sins" ... YOU know whut I meen. Sounds like an invite to a TERRORIST ATTACK BY A TRAIN OPERATOR for making the disgruntled work. Seen MANY a tank car and many a GRAIN car tossed sideways (ever hear of a "popcorn train?" GILFORD TRANSPORTATION INDUSTRIES HAS) ... unhappy railroaders should be sitting home watching Showtime EXTREME. Yard Dicks issued orders to shoot to maim upon eyesight. Heh.
Who needs a terrorist attack, just a stunt to maker them THINK its one. Hijack a Slant, bring it up on the Manny B and park it. Enjoy the view till the flashing lights show in the RFW.
QBMT's system does do this. On the displays as the train passes you see a yellow box above it with the train's Route ID.
That's a contradiction to what Mr. Train Dude implied in the following this thread a couple of years ago. There were shots of the crt displays that did not show any route id. These displays have since been removed from the web because of "security" concerns.
I'm happy that tower operators are no longer flying blind.
Also at that time Queens Plaza tower was also still active.
A small corretion, it does "control" the #7 line. It may clock trains and be able to see them but all moves on the #7 line are still done by 111 Tower (Queensboro to Main) and Times Square (Courthouse Sq to Times Square). As well 111 Tower still crosses trains between the divisions at QBP.
Years ago, subway cars had MARKER LIGHTS on the roof. And the TA had towers along the route. Back THEN, the tower operator sat in a bay window track side and when they saw the headlights, they'd glance at the marker lights ... "green/white, it's a D train" and set the sticks accordingly for the D train passing by their face.
Now with all that whizbang and no identifier for the train, HEADS roll ... ah, PROGRESS. :(
A T/O on the A punches for 6th avenue at 59 S/B. The TW/O has gap sheets (in fact the TW/O sitting next to him was the one who crossed him over at 145th, but didn't say that it was 1 ahead.
So the TW/O looks at his gap sheets and sees 1951 A 207 FROC, but gives the 6th Avenue lineup anyway without questioning.
Now who you blame?
But unlike 30+ years ago, when marker lights ruled as they passed towers WAY downstream of the interlock diverge zone, so they could clear you all the way home without a slipup. All I'm saying is this was NOT a problem 30 years ago, why - with all this "TECHNOLOGY" can't they tell a D from an A with 12 minutes headways? Seriously, I'd take CREDIT for smoking the quack if I had some, but WHY can't they find a train when they could 30 years ago? Don't make sense. "Productivity" should result in "enhancements," not retrenchment back to the primordial ooze. :*(
Because with 12 minute headways there is so little happening that the person who should have been paying attention let their mind wander.
It's a standard phenomenon. Boredom breeds proportionately more mistakes than the really busy periods, whether it's driving a car, air traffic control, or whatever.
I'll use that the next time people ask me why as a V/R I work busy jobs!
And DEAD zones? heh. 6th Avenue ANYWHERE except the W4 to 34 tunnel. MOST of CPW, MOST of Concourse south of Tremont - worked OK north ... pretty much MOST of the D run was you could hear command but they couldn't hear YOU, or psssssssssssssssssssssss ... Them Martha Stewart/K-Fart/SCROO the stockholders, your stock is cancelled chitboxes weren't even useful as WHEEL CHOCKS. :(
But yeah, markers made it work! Sorry to wax nostalgic, but wrong lineups were RARE ... when you breezed by a tower at 45-50, your CORRECT lineup was THERE. :(
Sad to say, I quit the TA because it wasn't fun. Looking back from NOW, it was a MEGA-giggle. :(
1) When a T/O punches his selection does the switch change at that point or does the punch somehow notify the tower of the request so the tower can change the switch.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
Thanks
It can be both. Busy interlockings usually have tower notifacation. Layup yards and tail tracks can be automatic.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
While small signa may exist for track workers, there are no highway type signs for T/O's. T/O's should be expected to know the routes they run on including stations and location of interlockings and where the tracks go.
The real point of a diverging signal is so that the T/O can moderate his or her speed through a turnout. A Y split track could, in theory, have no straight route at all. Many times the choice of the "straight" route seems to be totally arbitrary, but if one route has a higher speed then the others it will be the straight route.
So how does the T/O know which lineup he has? Are there lights or does he look at the switch itself?
On the old IRT signals of course, each junction head pertains to a different lineup, so on 3-way junctions like at E 180 St n/b, the T/O will still know which way the train is going. Other signals make use of the 3-light yard aspect, Y/Y/Y, when the 3rd route is into a yard or yard lead (like at 111 St-Corona w/b).
WE were expected to actually REMEMBER our lineups and where they'd pop up from out of nowhere. And no "know your lineup" signs on the walls EITHER. :)
The train operator is supposed to know the routing of the
train. If an unexpected route is encountered, the train operator,
by rule, must not accept and enter into the route without
confirming it with the tower or command center.
Fine, don't go along with it. Crawl into a bubble labelled
"Jersey Mike's Conception of the Ideal World" and close the door.
NYCT has distant signals, but I think what you mean is there
is no equivalent to Approach Medium. That is true. There has
never been such an indication, even back in the IRT days which
used "railroad-style" aspects.
If the home signal is located on a curve such that it comes
into sight at less than the service braking distance approaching
at full speed, almost always there is a repeater home signal
which is visible in time. Also, there are fairly few instances
in the system where one approaches a route divergence at speed.
Usually these points are located as one departs from a station,
or at the uphill end of a river tube.
(I don't know if this covers bridge vs. tunnel. That W train could run express on the local from 34th past Prince, but would it then stop and await a proper lineup or other information, or would it run through the tunnel without stopping until Pacific?)
IIRC the rule book is kinda vague on that one. It states that if a train operator receives a local lineup but is scheduled to run express, it will make only express stops on the local track unless otherwise told. The rule does not specify whether the T/O should call to question.
However other rules state that when a T/O receives a lineup other than what they should receive, they are to call and verify. I would guess that this applies to accepting a local lineup.
Given that there are other trains behind the one waiting for clarification in the case of a local/express mismatch going ahead seems like a good idea. Waiting more than the average headway could be bad for the entire line.
No offense to anyone on this board, but I have learned that the #7 T/Os are the biggest babies out there when it comes to express or local. :-P Yes some of them do have more sense and just take it. But I had one recently who, do to a delay was told to make local stops. He refused to move the train and called Control until he was given an express lineup.
As for bridge vs tunnel, I would question that one. It ranks right up there with 2s on the Lex, Rs through 63 St, etc - I can get back to my normal route at the expense of ticking off LOTS of people.
What about special cases (which I admit are highly unlikely), like the F between 47-50 and 34 or the E between 50 and 23?
As for bridge vs tunnel, I would question that one. It ranks right up there with 2s on the Lex, Rs through 63 St, etc - I can get back to my normal route at the expense of ticking off LOTS of people.
Not quite the same. If a Q or W is sent through the tunnel, no regular stops are skipped.
But the F still applies.
No, but they'll be pissed because of the extra TIME it takes.
Only way to get the wrong line-up s/b from 57/6 is to punch for it. That's part of Rock Ctr.
That hardly compares with being rerouted up the West Side when you need to go to the East Side.
Only way to get the wrong line-up s/b from 57/6 is to punch for it. That's part of Rock Ctr.
Okay, then, NB. (I didn't specify a direction.)
In all honesty, I don't see a problem with taking an unquestioned line-up in either direction for this case, since you can get back to your noral route without skipping any stations.
If those peering through the railfan window know which route is supposed to get which singals where then I assume the T/O knows this as well. Even if that were not true then what present and former operators have said here, that a T/O is supposed to know their lineup means that the T/O has the capacity to make things right even if they have been lined up for the wrong route. They know what the correct route is. I cannot think of an excuse for taking another route without noting it.
A T/O is supposed to be looking at the signals. If they and the switches are set improperly then the T/O should notice this and call it in. Maybe supervision will tell the T/O to go ahead anyway. Maybe they will set it up right. If this is done there will always be a conscious choice by all involved parties to do whatever was done.
There are other problems with the take whatever route approach too. Imagine a scenario where an operator takes a "point of no return" switch wrong. The operator is questioned later. I include two possible answers from two different T/O's who both got the wrong lineup
Q: At signal xxx, what did it display?
A1: As long as its not red and there's nothing in the way, I go.
A2: Green over yellow.
Q: What does that yellow aspect mean?
A1: I don't have to stop as long the path is clear and I should expect a diverging route following posted speed.
A2: A diverging route usually taken by the Y route, not the X I was on.
Q: Okay one of you stopped and the other didn't. Why?
A1: I go where you say.
A2: I stopped and called in for an explanation of this unusual episode.
Now the first T/O, do you really want him or her driving your train? #1 will take you wherever the signals safely permit regardless of whether or not thats actually where the train is supposed to go. Its true there is not sterring wheel on a train to pick which way to go but the T/O isnt without any capacity for control.
Mike ... the NYCTA does NOT operate like Amtrak. The rules you apply to the subways would get you thrown out of schoolcar on the first day. The T/O (and the CONDUCTOR) are responsible for the routing of trains in the final analysis - only recently a train was diverged at the end of a GO and ended up wrong railing through a tunnel to Queens. The CONDUCTOR bought it because they failed to pull the cord when the train went in the correct direction on the wrong track!
Please, before providing definitive information to people about how the subway system functions, LEARN how it works first? Your information (including "NORMAL" versus "diverge" for interlocking) has been consistently wrong each time ... no offense, guy - but you do NOT have correct information as to NYCTA operations and practices. :(
I've been out of the system myself for over 30 years now and things have changed ... I appreciate your knowledge of NORAC and all, but what you learned does NOT apply to NYCTA. At all.
I don't think its just the pushbutton that changes a switch, the tower gets the request then they have a switchboard so they change the switches.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
Well there are signs that tel where the train is supposed to go by signlas coeds, yellow/green, green/yellow or possibly green/green.
Example: on the F and G at Bergen St the F is considered the main line which it has a yellow over green while the G is the opposite.
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
It could be neither but chances are it would vary on the line.
Look! It's a wrong line-up! At Bergen northbound, the F has a bottom yellow to go to Jay St, while the G has the bottom green to Hoyt St.
I am from the big street class and some gungho TSS' would say if you don't know your lineups they will take you out of service. Then I would say Oh good maybe they will make me Supt as the Supt does not know them either or can I make a copy of that for my hearing at Jay St for the wrong route.
They would remember I was a wiseass but not remember why and as soon as I would get a speech operating I would talk about that or the history of the F lineups with the great realignment of the sixties.
That is exactly what the AT/D in the CRC at 179 was telling everyone. If you take a wrong wroute, you're covered by that sheet of paper.
The Bergen local track feeds directly into the G towards Queens; the Bergen express track feeds directly into the F towards Manhattan. The actual F, as it exists today, switches from the local to the express north of Bergen. One would therefore expect the F to take the diverging route.
Depends on the location. Most busy areas are tower controlled, the T/O punches, and the TW/O lines up the train based on what he punched.
Other areas like terminals, Mott Avenue (4/5 at 138/GC N/B) and 33rd/Rawson on the #7 are automatic. The T/O punches express or local (or at Mott, Jerome or White Plains) at and the interlocking machines lines up the train based on the punch.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
The D indicates the the signal is on time due to a diversion ahead. Basically it says "Be going XXX miles per hour and the next signal will clear. If you're going faster it will stay at danger and you'll have to wait till the timer runs out."
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
Even at a wye, there's still a "mainline" and a "diversion". Usually the mainline is determined by which is the route used for normal (or more frequent) service. In areas where the switch was added later, the mainline is usually the route that existed first.
Even though not a wye, the best I can explain the second example is Rockaway Blvd on the A line. Lefferts is considered the mainline even though the train goes to the right, and the Rockaways are pretty much a straight route. This is because the route to Lefferts existed first (as far as the Subway goes).
Some stations do indeed have these signs, showing the T/O which lineup is going to which line. I think that there's one on the northbound local at the north end of the 42ns St / 8th Ave station indicating the lineups for the C & E. I do recall seeing others.
--Mark
The E and F lines home of the wrong route have many of what I call idiot signs to remind you of your route, the F does even more forcefall things to prevent wrong routes. The D has a big sign in homeball alley at the point of no return going northbound.
I always thought the lineups in Brooklyn were much more complicated and they almost seem fatalistic about lineups and there seem to be fewer wrong routes.
1) What prevents a switch from switching when a train is almost on top of it. Does the prior signal have to be green?
When a train is in a circuit approching a home signal (and therefore switch), the interlocking machine applies a time delay to the switch. This always happens when the home signal is green. When the signal is dropped (put to danger) the tower operator must wait a certain amount of time (most places 45 sec but this really depends on the # of signals protecting a switch).
When the home signal is at danger some machines will allow the switch to be moved (although I understand this shouldn't happen at all but maybe one of our signal guys can clarify on the circumstances where this may be allowed).
Put simply, there are a number of conditions, all of which
must be true before a switch can be operated:
1) All home signals protecting movements over that switch
in any direction must be normal (displaying RED over RED).
1A) All trip arms associated with above signals must be in
the tripping position.
2) There is no train approaching the switch OR, if a train
is approaching, a time delay of at least 30 seconds
has elapsed.
3) All approach signals (controlled single-light automatic signals)
associated with the home signals are put to danger.
4) There is no train occupying a short track circuit, known as
the "Detector Circuit", which covers the turnout.
5) All other appropriate route locking is in place. E.g. if movement
of the switch would route the train into oncoming traffic,
then the appropriate home and approach signals on the
other track, in the other direction, are at danger, time
has run out if a train is approaching from the other
direction, etc.
I think this is the easy answer for folks at my level.
There is a signal a block (stretch of track long enough for a train to stop) behind the interlocking. If there is a train in that block, the switch can't be moved. If the switch is being moved, the approach signal will be red and a train running up to it at full speed would hit the stop arm and stop before getting to the switch.
It's a lot more complicated than that, but that is the level I understand and, perhaps, a level appropriate for the questioner.
Before the switch can be moved, both the home and approach
signals must all be at danger. The approach signals (there
are usually 3 or 4 of them) will clear on time as the train
approaches each one. This "proves" that the motorman has
seen the red signals and has the train under control and
at the proper speed (typical clearing speed is about 10 MPH).
This is not exactly true. If a signal is not cleared and a train approaches the home signal at stop a timer does not need to be run. Furthermore, if you have two trains running one behind another, when the first runs through the intelrocking and and signal is not fleeted the towerman can immediately enter another route. The timer is only run when a previously cleared signal is taken away without a train first taking the cleared route through the interlocking.
To display a clear signal there must be a clear route through an interlocking. You move the switches around so that you create a clear route then you are allowed to display a non-stop signal to a train.
Your question asks what prevents someone from moving a switch when a train is almost on top of it. First of all, if the switch is used in a clear route it is locked out and cannot be moved. Now lets say you clear a route, but as a train approaches you turn the signal back to red and move the switch. The train might not be able to stop and then slide into the interlocking and then into another train.
This is where timers come into play. If you take away a signal, to re-clear that signal, to move any switches involved in the route or to clear a comflicting route you must first run a timer. The timer length is designed for any approaching trains to be able to come to a stop. On railroads the run between 4-5 minutes for high signals and .5-2 minutes for dwarfs. On the NYC Subway I believe that someone said they are 45 seconds. Once the timer runs the towerman is then free to manipulate switches governed by the new conditions of the interlocking.
Older interlocking systems require one to run a timer every time you want to take away a signal, even if there are no trains in the interlocking. Systems installed after about 1930 have what is called approach locking, where the timer has to be run only when a train is in the approach block(s) to the home signal.
Note, timers do not have to be run when a train takes you clear signal and then enters the interlocking in the typical fashion. The signal will drop to stop and you are free to re-clear it at your leisure.
Here are a row of US&S dome timers at OVERBROOK tower for levers 10 to 18. Many towers will only have two timers, one for high and one for dwarf signals or one timer for each sub-section of the interlocking.
In NYCT they're not called timer, on the interlocking machine its called the Time Release feature. Timers in NYCT refer to signals that clear for a train moving at the deignated speed for the signal(s).
Holy crap, that's a long time. But yes, I stated that it was 45 seconds, but does vary, for a example on a switch protected by 2 homeballs will take longer before the time release feature allows the switch to be moved.
Older interlocking systems require one to run a timer every time you want to take away a signal, even if there are no trains in the interlocking.
East 180 tower does this as well. Don't know about others.
Yeah, if you look on the timers their rundown time is clearly labeled. Most are 4M 17S, but one is 4M 43S. The shortest is the lever 6 signal at 1M as it controls movement into and out of an MoW siding. Of course the linespeed is 70mph and the block lengths around a mile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Posted on:7/1/03 7:18:19 AM
Due to a collapsed building wall at East 58th Street near Lexington Avenue, the 4, 5, 6, N, R & W trains are running with slow speeds through the area. We anticipate minor delays as a result.
Peace,
ANDEE
Alas yes, as normal is used in the acronym snafu. The more probing question would be is it an operational necessity. That answer is no.
I'd expect it from a line that runs trains every 90-120 seconds.
The maximum frequency for trains at Main St was 24 tph, when the line was operating at 36 tph. The currently operate only 21 tph peak out of Main St.
The major design problem with Main St is the lack of tail tracks. This increases the amount of time that approaching trains take to clear the interlocking. The fact that the interlocking is longer than most because it is a 3 track line into a 3 track terminal does not help either. The TA had the opportunity to rectify this problem a few years back but chose to make it worse, when they renovated the station.
The long time that trains take to clear the interlocking means that schedules and adherence to them must be tighter. How tight? Assume it takes about 60 seconds to clear the interlocking in either direction. That means it takes 120 for an outgoing and incoming train to clear it. The 21 tph means a 171 second headway. This implies that there is a 51 second interval when there are no trains in the interlocking. This is the total amount of "fat" in the schedule. If one divides this "fat" equally between both directions, then this implies that the trains must be within 25.5 seconds of their schedule. This assumes that the schedules are drawn avoid conflicts. NYCT schedules are drawn to the nearest 30 seconds. So, as a starter NYCT operations planning is not up to the task.
However, a team effort is required to back up trains in conga lines 111th St. First off, there are only 3 pockets at Main St. So, it is vital that garbage out be greater than garbage in. If the departing trains are delayed relative to the arriving trains the reverse will happen. Have the scheduled running times been lengthened over what the actual times should be? This has been one artifice to "improve" on time performance. However, it means that trains will wait outside terminals until a pocket clears. Does the tower quickly clear the interlocking or must departing trains and arriving wait for a lineup? Also, is the clock at Main St properly set or is it running 20 to 30 seconds late? Are new crews waiting on the platform as the train enters Main St or do they start to their position after the train has arrived? In the morning rush half the locals terminate at 111th St also in the evining rush hour half the locals terminate at Willets Pt. Are these trains clearly marked so that the empty quickly or is a lengthy fumigation required.
During my 20 odd years of taking the train to Main St, I noticed that delays getting into Main St were more likely to occur on Fridays or on days before a holiday. My guess is that the backup this coming Thursday wil be monumental.
My own experience last night illustrates operations at Main St. I entered Times Sq around 8 pm and just missed the express. I passed up a local to get the next express. Of course, the waiting train was marked as an express even though it was a local. The express arrived, marked as a local, and I got on it. The local departed. Either the T/O or C/R then announced that express service was suspended and all trains would operate as locals. The dispatcher on the platform made a similar announcement a few minutes later. I just lost around 10 minutes.
The ride progressed normally until just before 111th St. Trains were stacked getting into Main St. We slowly inched past 111th St and past Willets Point. I noticed an express just entering Willets Pt just after we left Willets Pt.
The express passed us as we headed towards Main St. As we approached the portal, I noticed there was a dead train on the outbound local track. That meant that only two tracks were operational and both were headed into Main St. Why wasn't the express swithced to the local at Willets Pt. There were two opportunities to do it there. Once that express passed Willets Pt on the express track, it had go into Main St first just to clear an exiting track from Main St. Indeed, the signal aspect for the middle track turned green on the Times Sq direction, after the express passed us.
I expected to see a Manhattan bound train on the middle track as soon as the expressed got into Main St. None came and we waited some more. We did move up a little more into the tunnel. I noticed that there was a small track fire on the outbound local track. We still waited some more.
We finally started moving but still no train had exited Main St. As we went through the interlocking I noticed that there was a train with passengers on the outging local track stopped just before the track fire. Some how this train was not routed onto the middle track to bypass both the track fire and the stuck train on the ramp. My train finally made it into Main St. I decided not to remain to see how this scenario finally played itself out.
It's seems the problem was bad back then. What did the TA do exactly that made it worse?
Yeah like wider staircases, but I don't know if that would make a difference because its aproblem all over the system. What we need are more courteous passengers.
I overheard once at Woodhaven a woman yell "I'm trying to get downstairs and catch this train, move to the right!" and she was responded with "F-k you there are more of us than you." Ah, New York.
Wider stairways are not an easy solution. If you look at the ceiling you'll notice that there are structural beams the entire length of the platform that constrain the stairways to their current width. However, more stairways is relatively easy and inexpensive. It would have also helped in unloading trains during the evening rush hour.
Unfortunately now that I think about it more staircases won't help either, as most people will go for the starcases where the exit is. This is the problem at Woodhaven/Queens Blvd when a train comes in during the evening rush, and I wouldn't say that Woodhaven suffers a lack of starcases. And people trying to get to a train will want to go down the staircase closest to the exit (if there is a train downstairs I know I have no chance making it by going 30 feet further down). Its really lose/lose I guess.
At 63rd drive, which also has a short mezzanine, it's much more civilized since the mid-station staircase is double width, and the very south end of the station is a direct-to-street exit.
At 67th it's a breeze for people exiting since it's a full size mezzanine and plenty of stairs. Well, that and many people will purposely make their express-local transfer at 71st, so the load is distributed between both directions.
Delays in getting trains out of 111th and Main Streets also cause problems in the AM rush, especially on the local where there will be a gap in service, meaning less tph over the delay time causing the lead local train to have to contend with large crowds and the trailing locals caught with strings of red signals. This too appears to be caused by scheduling problems. When it's really bad there will be three local trains bunched up coming into Junction Boulevard.
Waiting on the eventual everything-runs-bergen-express GO while they work on the upper level crossover...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
His lives in Massachusetts and periodically comes to NYC.
He is best known here (besides his postings) for doing occasional weather reports for WCBS 880 AM.
http://wcbs880.com/bios/local_bio_glickmantodd_html/
>>>"is a tour operator?"<<<
Be more specific or email me in Private. I think, I know what you
mean, but that would only be conjecture on my part.
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
There are probably more then two dozen Shoreline members here & about half that amount are/were qualified operators. JohnS has identified some. I assume you have some reason for asking, so I suggest you send JohnS a personal email about it.
I'll be operating at Branford this Saturday... come on by and say hello!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Personally, I'm qualified at TMNY and MATA.
I have also guest operated at: Shore Line, Seashore, CTM, BSM, NCTM, PTM, IRM, Fox River, OERM, Fort Smith, Halton County Radial, MTM (Como-Harriet), BAERA, San Jose (Kelly Park).
Jimmy
8-) ~ Sparky
Oops, left out Lou from Brooklyn. Sorry Lou, it was unintentional.
-Stef
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
8-) ~ Sparky
Mark
John
Mark
John
For a subway related day, I'm waiting for March 30th, 2004.
-Robert King
For me: September 28th, 2008. The Broad Street Line turns 80.
Phase II opened National Airport (C10) to Stadium-Armory (D08) as the Blue line. When Phase III opened the extension of the D route from Stadium-Armory (D08) to New Carrollton (D13) west bound trains to National Airport (C10) were Blue line trains and east bound trains to New Carrollton (D13) were Orange line.
The reason this configuration existed is because the curtain roll destination signs on the Rohr car did not have a sign for both terminal stations that were the same color.
In addition to this the interior strip map on the exterior National Airport (C10) destination sign only showed Blue line stations and the interior strip map on the exterior New Carrollton (D13) destination sign only showed Orange line stations. Only after the Orange line opened to Ballston (K04) and Addison Road (G03) did the destination sign show the correct color terminal station in both direction. There was no interior strip map on the Ballston (K04) exterior destination sign.
John
Mark
First Katherine Hepburn, now Buddy Hackett...
Like my mom says, "They always come in threes..." (I fear to guess who is next)
I still remember the SNL jokes made by 'em about him.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you count the entries in the Stiffs.com Dead Celebrity Pool, Bob Hope is the next major star expected to buy the farm.
Mark
Probably about 1982.
Tom
You can check his current status here:
Abe Vigoda status
Sad to say it appears to get more attention and more posts to a topic intended to have a corrrelation to trains but gets WAY OFF TOPIC.
If we were discussing Buddy Hackett''s relationship to trains, even the VW "Love Bug/Herbie" movies I loved when I was a kid, this thread would die with the quickness.
I always thought he worked for the Fifth Avenue bus line in MANHATTAN, not Brooklyn. Come to think of it though, it coulda been Brooklyns' Fifth Ave at that.
As far as the Bensonhurst address, as mentioned all the time on the show, they lived on Chauncy Street. In Bedford Stuyvesant, actually. Which, by itself is believable since there was a lot of "Irish" people living around there in the 40s and 50s. Not so for Southern Brooklyn. But the neighborhood reference was always Bensonhurst. Maybe for the perceived "comic effect" of the word "Benson-hoist".
The Bed-Stuy referent makes sense in this way too: I remember one episode where Alice mentioned she had gone shopping "down on Dekalb Avenue". The "down" part would fit if the location was Chauncy Street. From Bensonhurst it wouldn't make directional sense. And I'm not sure if it was common back then to make the trip all the way "up to downtown" for shopping. I'd figure that was more a North Brooklyn thing. Southern Brooklyn would hit the Avenues, and Kings Hwy, and 86th Street. JMO
Peace,
ANDEE
Ralph Kramden worked for the Gotham Bus Company located at 225 River Street in Manhattan.
Ralph's daily bus run (Bus No. 2969 & No. 247) took him along Madison Avenue in Manhattan.
Any notable subway scenes in the show?
Ralph mentioned on a number of episodes that he drove up and down Madison Avenue.
Not true, in one episode Ralph and Alice are argueing about, what else, money, and Ralph shouts, "You know how many times I have to drive that bus up and down Madison Avenue to make xxx dollars???"
I may not remember the dollar amount, but I remember that line distinctly.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I was wrong though. There were two routes. NYCO #2 ran along Madison from 24th/25th to 135th, while #1 joined Madison at 42nd. The two routes were the same north of 42nd and south of 24th/25th.
In 1995 Corgi issued model # 54002, a replica of a GM 4506 (Old Look) in MACC colors as fleet # 1707. It is signed #4 Madison Avenue to Park Row & Broadway via 42nd Street.
The map is at: http://members.tripod.com/boarshevik/1940surface/
The restaurant was in the Bronx, indeed its somewhat out-of-the-way location was part of the reason why McClusky and Solazzo chose it. While no el was visible in the front view of the restaurant, trains could be heard passing during the dinner including right before the shooting.
Famous Godfather blooper: (fake) blood can be seen on McClusky's forehead before Michael fires the first shot.
Not-so-famous Godfather trivia: technically speaking, the movie is child pornography under U.S. law. The actress who played Michael's wife in Sicily appeared topless when she was only 17 years old.
Where I see a picture of her?
It's probably illegal.
The Gipper is currently #3 on Stiffs.com's list of celebrities most likely to die in 2003, behind Warren Zevon (lung cancer) and Bob Hope (100 years old).
The remainder of the top ten (one of whom's on-topic!), adjusted for those who've died this year, are:
4. The Pope
5. Johnny Oates (baseball manager, has brain cancer)
6. Madame Chiang Kai-Shek (105 years old)
7. Lady Bird Johnson
8. Carol Shields (Canadian author, has cancer)
9. Ronnie Biggs (British train robber, said to be in very bad health)
10. Barney Kessel (jazz guitarist, in bad shape after stroke)
Funny, I would have thought that Abe V. would be somewhere on that list...
Yes.
Funny, I would have thought that Abe V. would be somewhere on that list...
He's probably off the list because everybody thinks he's already dead
Acutally, he was born in 1921 (courtesy of the Internet Movie DataBase), so he was about 50 during the filming of the Godfather. He did look quite a bit older and indeed played an older character. Then again, Marlon Brando (b. 1924)was only in his late 40's during filming, yet he looked like he was at least 20 years older and of course played an elderly character.
The ultimate in actor/character age mismatches was in the Manchurian Candidate.* Angela Lansbury played Laurence Harvey's mother yet in real life was only three years older than him.
* = On-topic question: were there any subway scenes in the Manchurian Candidate? I don't remember any, but I saw it in my pre-railfan days and might not have taken particular notice of any. Much of the action did take place in New York, including a terrific chase scene in Central Park, so it's a possibility.
My guess is Abe Vigoda...might as well since his name comes up every couple of years...
Last time I saw him was at Chevy Chase's rost on Comedy Central earlier this year.
Bill "Newkirk"
Skip-stop, even though it's only two hours out of the day, will continue even after Marcy Ave is complete.
There's only 6-7 Z's to begin with in the rush hours and may look useless to some but it works [unlike the 1/9].
I can attest to it's necessity. During the 9/11 reroutes the J ran alone during rush hours on an 8 TPH headway and was PACKED like the L line.
www.newyorkish.com
Work. Shopping. Schools. Entertainment. Thanks to the new Metro Gold Line, they’re all an easy train ride away. Now local residents and visitors alike can travel by rail to Chinatown, Colorado Boulevard, Old Pasadena, Pasadena City College, the Southwest Museum and so much more.
Best of all, the Gold Line is part of the 62-station Metro Rail system. So for the first time, Pasadena and Chinatown are linked by rail with downtown LA, Hollywood, Wilshire Center, the San Fernando Valley, Long Beach and dozens of points in between.
Whether you’re a commuter wanting to skip the traffic jams, a student trying to get to class economically, or a shopper hunting for untold bargains, it’s time for you to discover Gold!
*********************
NOW WASNT THAT A NICE COMMERCIAL ? ....................LOL !!
Kewl.
Forgot the keeping-asbestos bit.
Jimmy
Will have to take some pictures, and host them on a free site.
Got 6800,6804,6806,6809...
Those four R-17's were part of a ten car train of experimental air conditioning that also failed. Of course, R-15 #6239 was the first.
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course... but if you prefer, they also come in blue & silver.
--Mark
I look forward to the rest of your construction! I'd imagine accomplishing bi-levels like at the remnants of the 3rd Ave. El or ascending/descening levels at Queensboro are quite a task! Don't forget the pink... :)
I can't wait... my el is just corner braces with strips of pine moulding for trackways :(.
--Mark
MTH is O scale; these are HO
I suspect that, with some work, you could modify them to sit at the proper height, although it might involve repowering.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
Is your system outside, or you just put it out there for the photos?
--Mark
My two layover tracks on the other table are also full.
My underground / open cut Stillwell Terminal is getting full :)
--Mark
--Mark
I was thinking a kind of pre-Pre-metro system, similar to Seattle's bus tunnel. They already have an ETB system, so it would seem obvious that maybe a few of those lines should be buried where they go throught the city. The 1, 3, and maybe 4 busses could be buried under 3rd Ave, thereby eliminating traffic related delays. Eventually an LRT could be run right through the 1, with steps taken to keep the 3 and 4 busses operating through the tunnel as ETBs. The same could be done for the north south routes on Main st, they too could be buried eventually. I'm not sure if Dayton will ever need a heavy rail system, they just don't seem to be that big, but the system should be built with IND or so specifications, so that it can later be upgraded to a wholely subsurface subway when traffic density overwhelms even the subway-LRT system.
But this would be a way to head for that system, start small and grow their bus tunnel into an LRT, then finally into a full heavy rail subway.
I agree with the LRT idea. (HRT seems a long way off, given the medium densities.)
The Third Rail has an article on this travesty: http://www.rapidtransit.net/net/thirdrail/0007/dayton.htm
It's called "light" because it can mix with traffic, significally lessening the cost for complete grade separation. They actually weigh quite a bit.
It isn't synonymous with trolley, and it means what it says. The trains are lighter in weight, and shorter, than fully-fledged EMUs. They therefore can safely use a more lightly engineered track; they can go up steeper gradients and round sharper curves; the stations can be shorter; speeds may be lower (though NYC subway speeds are pretty low anyway!) though acceleration may be livelier. For all these reasons they should be cheaper to construct than heavy-rail rapid transit - though that is not always the case in practice.
I guess that by "trolley" (or streetcar or tram) you mean that the rail vehicles run on the street. To be "LRT" they do not necessarily have to include any on-street running. I've never been on the Hudson-Bergen so I don't know if it runs on street at all, but the Newark City Subway doesn't, and neither does the Docklands Light Rail in London.
It sure does.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Trolleys are a subset of light rail, named for the wheel which rolls along the wire which provides electric power. Typically the name trolley evokes the image of a single non articulated vehicle operated on streets. In most of the rest of the world, particularly where pantographs are used for power pickup, they are called trams. "Light rail vehicle" is a more modern name for a tram, particularly when more than one is connected in multiple unit operation.
The "light" in light rail does not refer to the weight of the vehicles, but that it is light duty operation as opposed to a regular rail line. Typically light rail vehicles are narrow enough, and the trains are short enough and take power from overhead lines so that it is possible to operate them on a street, even if in a given operation they have a dedicated ROW. They are based on the designs used for street running trams in Europe which originated as horse drawn streetcars. "Heavy" rail is descended from steam railroad operations with a dedicated ROW and longer, wider trains.
Of course one can always point to exceptions. The SIRT is certainly a lighter duty rail system than most LRV operations, but because of its railroad origins is a heavy rail operation.
Tom
Cheers and 73,
PJ Dougherty
W2IRT/WPXV367
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Admittedly a full heavy rail subway is almost out of the question, there is nothing like the population density to support it outside the very center of the CBD. But an LRT system, modeled on Portland or Karlruhe systems might be a good idea, both of those are moderately sized towns that either started with an exsisting Interurban system or with nothing to form a very effective transit system, both of which are still growing. If anything the two cities show that mass transit is in no way limited to large cities with subways and elevateds carrying tens of thousands of people per minute around the city, that LRT or large tram operations can be very successful in such a setting. I just thought that with those two cities doing so well with their systems, perhaps another city of similar size and placement, Dayton, might do well with a new LRT line.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Switches are pre-made, and placed in-service during fantastically expensive (due to massive number of buses and station personnel giving direction on overtime) 55 hour shutdown, lasting from Friday to Monday morning. You've had some of those on the outer portion of the line during the past year. That's basically done, except for punchlist and removals.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
1091-1100
I think you mean 1001-1100.
I've don't their 13 mile each way trip to Moscow with #2317 a 4-6-2.
They have three operating engines, one a yard 0-6-0. One of the other two may be in their shop (steamers require a lot of PM work).
#261 is a Northern S-3 4-8-4 (and you guys thought I only knew about rt stuff )
BTW, next month I'll be there for a couple of baseball games & a trolley ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Word to the wise: Look at a company's books TWICE before choosing to do business with them. Lowest price is not always the best. Just ask Flxible!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Amtrek's new Service Guarantee - the first of its kind in the industry - is unconditional. That's right. There is no fine print! We promise that your trip will be a good experience. Of course, we don’t guarantee that everything will be perfict, only that your travel experience will be pleasurable. Your three-hour business trip may include an unexpected six-hour mechanical breakdown outside of Bridgeport, Connecticut. However, we promise you'll have a great time waiting for the rescue engine to arrive. Onboard toilets may be clogged with other passengers' droppings, but we promise you'll find that to be a memorable experience.
Will you get a refund if your trip is less than satisfactory? Actually, no. We will issue a voucher redeemable for future Amtrek travel. But vouchers will only be issued if your experience is less than enjoyable. And it WILL be enjoyable. We guarantee it. If you do feel the need to persist in your stubborn and unwarranted quest for compensation, we’ll gently remind you how enjoyable your trip actually was, even though you may not have realized it at the time. That's our promise to you.
This site is SO funny. Please check it out and post your favourites.
Hooray, there is hope!
From: http://amtrek.net/news/index.html
But can state the difference between the three styles of BMT Standards and as well as all other pre-war subway equipment ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There were three types? Gee, thought they all looked the same....
Well.......different roof lines, sign boxes, ceiling fans etc etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
Who cares about Standard? I want to know if she can tell the difference between the SD40-2s from 1972, 1980 and the later rebuilds from SD45s. Can she tell a GP50 phase 1 from a GP50 phase 2? Or how about an M2 from an M4 and M6? Now that would be trivia for a Railfan, not subway buff!
John
If you check out alt.binaries.pictures.rail usenet group, you'll see a couple very regular posters (who take some darn good photos) are ladies.
New Speonk Station on other side of road
Speonk Yard
Old Speonk Stationhouse
Westhampton
One day the digging when too deep and hit an underground water spring. The company tried to pump the water out but was it was too much water pump out. The pit area got completed filled in with water within 12 hours. In the pint was left a crane and 3 railroad boxcars.
The area as I remembered, looks like a beach with white sand with a road and rail ties leading into the water. This was the only area to go into the water since the surround area was a steep drop right into the water. If you swim to the center of the lake and use a diving mask, you can see the crane and the 3 boxcars, which is about 200 feet down in crystal clear water. During the winter, the water doesn’t freeze up. Only a thin layer of ice around the edges is formed with a light fog above the water. And if the weather is calm with no wind, you can actually see the water flow in the center of the lake where the blowout occurred.
Paul
-Stef
Would that have anything to do with my seeing at least three R-40M trainsets on the Q today, and at least one on the N?
But does Concourse really need more R-68s, or is the TA trying to get in on the excellent maintenance there by sending them more? Concourse R-68s always seem to be shiny and clean while CIs look like hell. I couldn't read the rollsigns on one particularly bad set!
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
John
June 30, 2003
July 01, 2003
Below is a sample photo.
Also, nice underground station pics. How did you get them to be so sharp? It looks like some of the pics were taken in low light situations and would come out blurry.
The train with the orange Q had the rollsign set wrong. It should have been a yellow Q.
For the underground pics I used ISO 200 and a shutter speed of 1/25 for still photos and 1/80 for action shots. The G3 really surprised me when I saw that the photos came out.
Would that be on the front end going the other way, could that screw up the riders?
Fat chance.
Now another reason why the Brighton line is preffered by a margin of 4 to 1 over the What?-Beach line.
I liked the slants at Ocean Avenue too - pity about the graffiti on the station, but I guess you couldn't masnage to climb up and scrub them off before taking your pictures (8-) .
All photos taken within the last two weeks have been with a Canon ProShot G3. Most photos taken previous to that were taken with a Toshiba PDR-M71.
my website: http://www.railfanwindow.com
Hopefully tomorrow I'll get out tere and take some. The car hunt has kept me a little on the quiet side as far as pics go lately.
---Choo Choo
Please email me at my other email address: brightonexpdavid@yahoo.com if you interested. Only hardcore and serious people may apply, most likely I will do this and you need 1 to 2 days off from work. I will reply back to you ASAP with the contact and more details.
Again, you have to be prepared for this, no exits and reentries allowed in the subway system.
Also they went through NYCT in giving us permission to sleep in the car, if needed. Bring a pillow but no blanket.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't that make the feat much harder, with weekend and holiday schedules?
It is not as much fun as it sounds. Even train buffs will say "no mas" after a while.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can go 8 hours without using the restroom...
I can eat Dunkin Donuts' on the train, have a Nutrament for lunch, and postpone dinner...
I can get refreshments (full of caffiene - it works for me) at newsstands...
I'm not doing anything really important...
I'll even wanna ask them where THEY get off doing subway documentaries..
::coughcoughTHAT'S MY THANGcoughcough::
I can go 8 hours without using the restroom...
I can eat Dunkin Donuts' on the train, have a Nutrament for lunch, and postpone dinner...
I can get refreshments (full of caffiene - it works for me) at newsstands...
I'm not doing anything really important...
Does anyone think I stand a chance? It'll only work if I take advantage of the (A) Rockaway Park Thru Trains. Do you have to stop at every station or does an express run count? What about skip-stop? And unexpected unnannounced battery-runs?
I think I may just take you up on this one...
The idea is to ride all the lines, hit all 468 stations WITHOUT leaving the system.
This harkens back to the days of the token (actually only a couple of months ago). You drop the token in the turnstile and then you ride the entire system in the shortest amount of time possible.
No shortcuts, no buses. This is a subway only situation (except where the bus replaces the train down in Coney Island).
Kids these days - always wanting the easy way.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/
What record would you expect to find? Every time service patterns change, a timer is added, or track is permanently removed, any trip after the event would not be directly comparable with an earlier event. That is the same reason there is no world record for running a marathon race. Because of differences between race courses, and even weather on the same course from year to year, no meaningful comparisons can be made except between those on the same course at the same time.
Tom
For the ones who take them up on it - you might get your name mentioned and maybe even your picture in an article back in page 50.
If you have been following some earlier postings, the print media has been trying to get anyone to participate in interviews, documentaries and such.
My comment was what should we charge per hour for our "expert" assistance to the media? $200? $350?
If anyone wants to do the whole system for the NY Times - you have my moral support.
Wanting to be paid to do a grand tour?? That certainly shows that you are a faux NY subway rail fan. This is on a par with a Kamikaze pilot turning down an assignment because the retirement pay and medical benefits are insufficient. :-)
Tom
There is no "law" involved. If they are setting it up, they get to set the rules.
Tom
Think I'm calling them.
Not according to Petula Clark.
Look again, Jeff, she does not say one cannot sleep in the subway (which we would call an underpass), but the one person the song is addressed to should not do so because much more comfortable accommodations are available.
Tom
Before BigDig gets out, YES! they have a permit!!
You better believe it, onnakowana this ain't just any camera crew:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHAT sort of harmful "appearance" can a dear _mouse make?
Especially our good kind _mouse. :)
WHAT sort of harmful "appearance" can a dear _mouse make?
Furthermore, if the same gal is now the Mrs... I don't think "Appearances" was much an issue, CL..
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's as long as at least three people actually apply....I wish they would throw in some prizes or money or rewards or something. I think that in the end, this will be about a 5 to 10 minute segment in a one hour tv show. Hardly seems worth it. If, OTOH, it will set a Guiness World Record (which I highly doubt), then that makes it a little more attractive.
Why?
1. I can't use my RFM(I have a disability but I can handle these types of things).
2. I can't use a MetroCard(At least a MetroCard would be fine)
3. I am not used to rideing subways late at night(My Dad do ride the subway around 12 AM to work).
4. I won't use a bathroom if it's Relly Dirty(Tends to be like that in subway bathrooms,I think).
5. No meal stops(I need to eat at least once or two times a day)
6. My parents would think I am nuts for doing it.(Maybe but they won't let me do it anyway)
7. Might come back smelling bad
8. Might get a headache
That describes the bathrooms in the subway. Bathroom at Boro Hall has nothing that works, and the bathroom at Main St features a toilet bowl with nothing but BROWN WATER. Totally disgusting sh*t.
Bet they wanna do it THIS month.
Gena Konstantinakos from the NY Times will be at the next NY Div ERA meeting this Friday 7/11 at 7 PM. Location for those who need it is 101 Murray St between Greenwich St. and West St.. There is a $5 admission charge for non-members.
For those people who cannot attend the ERA meeting due to religious reasons, please email Gena at: gena@nytimes.com. Serious inquiries only please, the filming will take place VERY SOON (like within 2 weeks from today) and will be aired nationally on a cable station available on your Digital Cable provider, DirecTV, or dish network.
Chambers 1/2/3/9 is the closest stop, right?
I am currently attempting to reach Gena via email/phone.
Thanx.
-Nick
As far as having an attachment to Brooklyn, I don't. I was born, raised and still live in DA BRONX.
Tough!!! :)
However, it does explain one thing -- why the intersection of Jamaica, Fulton and Broadway became a major transit hub. It was and is the site of one of the four passes through the terminal morraine, at a time when natural barriers were much more formidable than today.
I believe the battle for New York isn't better known because the U.S. lost. After that loss, however, Washington realized he couldn't fight the British head on, shifted to gurrella war and went from success to success.
As it involved the Revolutionary War, that would have been jumping the gun quite a bit!
One of the things Gallagher did in his spare time was coordinate walking tours of the Bay Ridge Branch of the Long Island Rail Road. I never was able to tag along for any of those, but did hear about his exploits in that area. Most of the local Brooklyn & Queens papers had sizable Obits on him. Gallagher also was instrumental in getting space for the HARP* group at Floyd Bennett's Hanger 'B'.
*Historic Aircraft Restoration Project
"TV star puts a Highland spring in the step of passengers as she hands out water in new Tube promotion
By Tom James
Gail Porter hands out Highland spring water
More than 300,000 free bottles of water will flow in a Tube holiday giveaway this month.
Tube users will get a taste of Scotland with Highland Spring, which offers the chance to win a spa break there.
Yesterday TV presenter Gail Porter, voted one of the sexiest women in the world, kicked off the launch - handing out bottles at Oxford Circus.
It will continue over the next four weeks at three other busy central London stations - Liverpool Street, Piccadilly Circus and Victoria."
-Robert King
On the other hand, we had people saying that the mta was stupid for getting rid of redbirds. I distinctly recall someone even saying that Rust and corosion can be scrapped, and the birds could stay.
The # of people liking redbirds far outnumbered the # who favored 142's. I don't know how many times we had to hear about the 'deadbirds'.
-Robert King
R-62s still have GE SCM controls, which are all-electric but not electronic and utilize cams.
David
-Robert King
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
PS. This picture was definitely taken in the '70s: Davisville station has its original tiles. You can also see that the expanded mezzanine hasn't yet been built and the haircut on the kid in the front window of the train's a dead givaway.
-Robert King
I just wonder why London Underground can't or won't put windows in its cab doors to let passengers see out the front of the trains. I mean, the train operators don't sit in the middle of the cab, so nobody would be looking over their shoulders.
With respect to the lack of railfan windows on the London Underground, you could argue that it would be possible for them to have them on the subsurface stock. The tube stock is very small and that full width cab is needed otherwise there just wouldn't be any space for the train driver. Also, London Underground is an all OPO system (the last hold out was the Northern line until the 59 stock was retired several years ago) and the full width cab is needed for that purpose.
-Robert King
In my observation, drivers don't leave their seat and cross the cab when the platform is at the opposite side to their driving posiotion. There is CCTV, with monitors that they can see out of the appropriate side window (depending on which side the platform is) from the driving position. If that sounds unsafe (in terms of the risk of catching people in the doors and dragging them), remember that LU, unlike the NYC subway, has staff on the platforms at all busy stations.
Although there has to be a full-width cab so that the driver can see across to both sides, there could be clear windows between the car and the cab, at least on the non-driving side, which would provide a raifan view. The first-generation DMUs introduced on British Rail in the 1960s had that kind of view, which was much appreciated by railfans; the current generation DMUs do not, sadly.
I think the real reason we don't have RFWs on the London Underground is just tradition. We've never had them.
I thought maybe it was for security reasons, that maybe LU didn't want people looking into the cab. I thought maybe the earliest stock might have had them. Tube and Subsurface trains could definitely have a window in the cab (J) door. That's what our transverse-cab equipped cars have, although on most R44s, R46s and R68s, the window seems to be blacked out. It would be nice to have them on London Underground stock too.
London used steam engine hauled trains on surface lines in the beginning and early EMUs had their electrical equipment right behind the cab. Even on tube lines, the City and South London (currently part of the Northern) and Central(only for a short time) used electric locos. And the small dimension of tube stock meant even more space taken by the equipment on early EMUs.
The first candidates of RFW would have been the 1938 stock(tube) and the Q stock(surface), unless District Railway's early electric stock already had small cabs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.
I've never seen a London Underground train with a window in the cab door, but I had a few opportunities to ride in the cab, when I was a teenager. RFW ride! That was.
I bet that was a great ride. Do you think if enough folks suggest it, LU might specify cab door windows on the next order of Tube or Subsurface stock?
AEM7
There are no windows on cabs of high speed bullet trains though. Safety measures? Maybe...
None left on the system, perhaps, but there is a pair at Halton.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
;-)
There isn't any reason why they can't have red trains now, now that London Underground insists on painting the trains again. The unpainted aluminum carbodies certainly came and then went with the newer trains and the refurbishment programs. I wouldn't mind seeing the 1938 stock paint scheme applied to the 95 stock.
-Robert King
-Robert King
That's a very nice picture you have of the train, too.
-Robert King
-Robert King
How about a tot of Rum in the winter! :-)
Tom
My intended destination in the Bronx was the 161st Street station, so I got off at 86th to wait for the 4, and I caught a pic of the 5 train as it left. While I was waiting, I saw, not one, but TWO trains of R142A's running on the southbound #4. The car numbers I have for those trains are: 7666 and 7705 -- they were on different trains. Then, finally, a train of R142 cars on the northbound 4. My intentions were to record the automated announcement as the train arrived at the 161st Street station. But just as it was about to do so, the conductor announced that the train's next stop after 161 would be Burnside Avenue. That basically ruined it.
Then I wanted a pic of a train of 1100-series R142's with Yankee Stadium in the background. That went off better. Then, off to the downtown D train platform I went. Took a downtown D train to 34th Street for the R68 sign. After a brief stop at the Manhattan Mall, I went Q-R-M-3-1 to South Ferry (I changed my mind while I was on the R at Prince St). At the Canal Street M station, I noticed that the platform-level crossover has been ripped out, with a hole in the wall (and floor) in its place. Used the new South Ferry exit and walked through Downtown and up along the Hudson River to the World Financial Center. Then, Ground Zero. The last time I was there was about 21 months ago, three days before that terrible day. I saw the PATH station that they're building down there, and the steel beam cross. Then, on to the E train for the trip home.
Back when your old site was up, I used to spend hours playing around with the signs. :-D
About the R142s running on the 2 and 5, you'll see a train most of the time where the map is for a different line. The 2 and 5 both share the same yard (why couldn't they put both the 2 and 5 strip maps together as one?)
First, let me point out that my other site, Transit Sounds Millennium (TSM) has been up for a while (before I left for California). It's located at http://blake.prohosting.com/~tptsm. I'm planning on putting any new transit pictures pages here temporarily until new web space is granted me (I'm looking for something with at least 100 megabytes). Once that's available, I'll start uploading files there, piece by piece, and the temporary pages (@ Prohosting) will be moved to their "permanent" locations.
I acquired a USB Memory Stick reader/writer and a 128 MB Memory Stick which will aid and, hopefully, accelerate the uploading process, so much that I can upload the entire site in one session (My whole site [excluding the Transit Sounds] "weighs" 67 megabytes; no floppy disk-swapping with the Memory Stick). I'll just need to find a place where the computers can access the Memory Stick, either directly or through a USB port.
Anyway, The next set of pictures is up now, (I've put a "Transit Pictures" near the top of the page). It'll be number 42, and I just finished a roll, which will become number 43. Just to let you know, I've renumbered the Transit Pictures pages, eliminating the (in my opinion) annoying "10.2" type call numbers.
Hopefully, it should all be up by the first week of September.
I'm using my redirect URL, http://transfer.to/rmmarrero for this.
First of all, the sight of all the R62A's on the Flushing line discouraged me, as I saw only four Redbirds from TSQ to Main St, including the one I rode back to 74th St. - Broadway from Main St. I rode the express and enjoyed the ride.
Our R62A express arrived on Track M, as I got off to see the "Next Train" signal lit up pointing to the R62A on Track 1. Some arriving passengers filled the train on track M, as a few minutes later, a car cleaner walked the length of the train saying "NEXT TRAIN" and pointing to the train on Track 1. I was already on Track 1, however about 2 minutes later, the train on Track M leaves, as I see some trailing passengers (is that going to a yard or to TSQ?) in the last two cars. A minute later, a Redbird on Track 2 arrives. And some of the T/A workers notified all of us on Track 1 that the Redbird was the next train to go. Some disgruntled passengers, as we all walked up to the mezzanine to get the Redbird, which left two minutes later.
What is the explanation of this slip-up? Are these common?
BTW - you didn't have to go up to the mezzanine to cross over. If you had walked to the north end of the station you could have simply walked over to the other platform.
Considering that the headway on #7 trains is so close missing one train is not that much of a problem.
Didn't KNOW Main St. had 1...
I've always done the stepover at the north end...
That switcheroo pattern ALSO happens on the 7 at the TSQ end.
The r62a was still toasting it's english muffin.
Rusty runs well and warmly (even on an empty stomach!)
Apparently, a tractor-trailer at least 13 feet high, tried unsuccessfully to go underneath the elevated 207th st/IRT station, and the whole load of grapes was ripped apart. According to signs, the posted height was only 11'0".
Michael
Wash, DC
Queens Blvd over Sunnyside yard: 12'6"
Roosevelt Ave and the following: 53, 56, 61/LIRR (12' 6"), 70 (BQE), 72, 75, 82, Elmhurst, 94, Junction (12' 4"), National St (near 103rd st), before and after 108th st, and top of hill by Willets Point/126th st.
The known lowest structure is on N/B Westchester Ave at Brook Ave: 10'8" clearance
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070203_subway.html
I think 600VDC has a short in the optical circuts.
And as far as the letter vs. package thing goes, Channel 7 called it a "letter" in the breaking news e-mail alert, and then changed it to "package" on the web site's full story. So, the folks at the Mickey Mouse channel got mixed up as well. :-) Nice to know I'm not the only mixed up person working in the broadcast industry.
Hmm, the substance turned out to be corn starch... maybe someone had adult diaper rash :^)
Rim shot!
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070203_subway.html
Suspicious Package Disrupts Downtown Subway Service
JULY 02ND, 2003
Police are responding to a suspicious package found on a subway near Canal Street, and there are major service disruptions in Lower Manhattan as a result.
A white envelope containing an unidentified white powder was found by some passengers in a duffel bag on a downtown train on the No. 1 and 9 lines at 9 a.m. Wednesday, law enforcement sources told NY1. Passengers were evacuated at Canal Street, and police, firefighters and hazardous materials crews responded to the scene.
At about 10 a.m., a fire official told NY1 that the package tested negative for chemical and radiological agents, with biological tests still pending. An hour and a half later, the police presence at the subway station suddenly escalated, but authorities have not said whether anything dangerous was found in the package.
As a result of the ongoing investigation, No. 1 and 9 trains are suspended from 14th Street to South Ferry in both directions. No. 3 trains are also suspended between 34th Street and Chambers Street. No. 2 trains are running on the No. 5 tracks from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
Several roads around the subway station have also been closed to traffic.
Peace,
ANDEE
(sorry for the cut and paste, NY1s site is overloaded)
Suspicious Packages Found In Lower Manhattan; Subway Service Disrupted
JULY 02ND, 2003
Police are responding to two suspicious packages in Lower Manhattan Wednesday. The first was found on a subway near Canal Street, causing major service disruptions, and the second was discovered more than two hours later on the street near City Hall.
A white envelope containing an unidentified white powder was found by some passengers in a duffel bag on a downtown train on the No. 1 and 9 lines at 9 a.m. Wednesday, law enforcement sources told NY1. Without being specific, the sources also said the letter has a message.
Passengers were evacuated at Canal Street, and police, firefighters and hazardous materials crews responded to the scene.
At about 10 a.m., a fire official told NY1 that the package tested negative for chemical and radiological agents, with biological tests still pending. An hour and a half later, the police presence at the subway station suddenly escalated, but authorities have not said whether anything dangerous was found in the package.
As a result of the ongoing investigation, No. 1 and 9 trains are suspended from 14th Street to South Ferry in both directions. No. 3 trains are also suspended between 34th Street and Chambers Street. No. 2 trains are running on the No. 5 tracks from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
Several roads around the subway station have also been closed to traffic, causing heavy delays.
More than two hours after the first package was discovered in the subway, police officers began blocking pedestrians from walking around the area around Chambers and Centre streets, near City Hall. Police sources tell NY1 access to the area is being restricted because investigators have found a second suspicious package.
The sources have not revealed exactly where the package was found, or what it contains, but they said they are taking the threat seriously because it was found so soon after the first package.
Check back with NY1.com for the latest on this breaking story.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The car, which belonged to a Daily News reporter on assignment, was examined by the bomb squad and was found to be clean, said police, who were questioning the caller.
Lemme guess, the Daily Snews is testing NYPD's readiness for a possible terrorist attack?
Peace,
ANDEE
There is no reason to worry.
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
Instead of running into a corner and piddling yourself every time a camel sneezes in the Rub-al-qyat, marching off on a 'crusade' to rid the world of all the evildoers, or pretending that there is no problem when there clearly is one, what about co-opting those people that currently threaten us? You can't fight Al-queda on our turf, by the time they're across the ocean 90% of their problem is over, you can't fight them overseas in their host countries, thats like trying to smash a fly in a glass house with a hammer. They live off the suffering incumbant in most middle eastern countries for recruits. You just feed them, to develop the infrastructure, and ensure that a regime like the Taliban never rise again, which, provided the people are fed and such, it shouldn't.
Instead we've embarked upon an unwinnable crusade against the middle east in general, all we're doing is inflaming it.
Revalations without any evidence, but no matter.
Maybe you could reveal the numbers in next week's lottery drawing?
Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this service alert on the MTA done by dimwits webstite?
I'd say that Randy Kennedy is at least a semi-buff. His writings show a degree of enthusiasm that you wouldn't get from someone writing about the subway merely as an assigned duty.
Peace,
ANDEE
(Just kidding.)
But I'd rather embarass the suits at the MTA in public, as you can see from my write-ups after I attend the public hearings, instead or terrorizing NYC for this stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The station was designed for the 1939 World's Fair. The wide platforms for the express and outbound local were to handle the large crowds coming to the fair each afternoon. On the other side, the extra length station allowed two or three trains to load at the same time. At theat time, both BMT and IRT (and the 2nd Ave. El) served the Flushing line and there was no free transfer at Queensboro Plaza between IRT and BMT, so fair goers returning to the city had to get on the right train. With multiple trains in the station together, there was no one just standing on the platform blocking the flow of foot traffic to one train while waiting for their train to arrive.
Tom
--Mark
I think you meant the MVMs. Because buying your metrocard before the game won't help solve crowding at the turnstiles.
Yawnkee Stadium.
Diamondvision Redbirds.
Diamondvision Redbirds.
That purple diamond might signify a modification of some sort...Some of the R62A singles from Livonia have a green circle sticker next to the number plate.
It appears that the CG has come to its senses and exempted the SI Ferry from these requirements. The odd thing is that the private operators who run smaller boats (600 or fewer vs. 6,000 passengers) DO have to comply.
Here's a link to the story.
S.I. Ferry Riders Get Security Break
Mark
Chip
With that many during the rush hour it could take all day to get to/from Manhattan.
No.
The 3rd Ave El did not use the bridge on Third Ave. The El turned east on 129th St and then crossed the Harlem at 2nd Ave, along with the 2nd Ave El, which had a straight shot.
WHAT VIDEO??! :o
Someone had to pick up the slack.
Time: 7:30 PM Tommorrow
Location: Dekalb Ave/Flatbush Ave station, full time mezzanine area
Bonus points given for those who wear NY Yankee baseball shirts or caps. LOL.
Meet us by the ONLY S/A booth, and don't be late, we need to catch Mark W. working on his N train pulling in at 1937 hours going towards the rat hole.
But if I could make it I'd wear my Mickey Mantle jersey :)
--Mark
Have a happy 4th of July weekend everyone, I'm out.
Oh by the way, Fred is taking the BRIGHTON line to Coney Island????Well I assume your photos will have "N" on them. How much "Sea Beach" can one ride. Oh wait a minute, this is Fred.
I'd rather not post my AIM ScreenName directly on SubTalk, so here is what I propose: If all of you email me your AIM ScreenNames, and include your SubTalk handle, then I will compile a master list of ScreenNames, to be emailed to everyone who has submitted their ScreenName.
How does that sound?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
add me, im AEM7902
Not true.
If AOL is causing internet programs to crash, then AOL is what should be removed.
Having AOL is the height of stupidity.
if you're talking about the mirc issue from the other thread, actually mirc was crashing when i was connected to the 'net via a college ethernet drop with winsock 2. mirc32 is buggy, because it uses MFC 4.0.
Having AOL is the height of stupidity.
aol is a dialup provider that works and is cheap. internet service in the uk is very different from internet service here, and i have not yet seen a good service provider over here. you have basically three classes of providers: the national chains such as mindspring, aol, and others, and they all require proprietary software which slows down the service and your computer. then there is the low cost providers such as netzero that are slow and annoying and have ads. then there are the local providers that have ppp access points (the real way with minimal software overhead) but they don't have national numbers for you to dial in from anywhere.
with all the pluses and minuses, aol still come out on top. until i find a provider that provides a decent ppp drop and is as cheap as aol while providing nationwide access, i'm not moving.
aem7
No, they don't. I know that while they offer proprietary software, it isn't mandatory, one can use Dial-up Networking. That option is not avaiable with AOL, which also costs $1.95 more and its required software is more slow and bloated. All of the other services (except for the ad-based services like NetZero) cost $21.95.
i might sign up for a trial account.
Mindspring isn't available anymore, it merged with Earthlink. But Earthlink allows it. Also AT&T WorldNet.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
BTW, I'm BOARshevik. I think it's ridiculous to hide one's AOL screen name.
That mIRC always crashed for you is your computer's problem.
but if the room then closes down and then the next person to sign on automatically become ops. what you mention about the rooms that are permanently acephalous only works on certain servers. it is just not standardized and generally crap. aol enforces the fact that a room is acephalous. much better. i'm a republican, even for my chat preferences.
That mIRC always crashed for you is your computer's problem.
i don't care -- it doesnt work on my platform, and aol works on my platform. therefore mirc is crap and aol is good. my platform is a given -- it is part of the specification.
aem7
No, it isn't. I don't want my E-mail address harvested for spam purposes. If you want my e-mail address, you can ask for it. I post my e-mail when I need to.
how am I supposed to email you all of the screen names.....?
You can IM me. I NEVER sign off.
No, it isn't. I don't want my E-mail address harvested for spam purposes. If you want my e-mail address, you can ask for it. I post my e-mail when I need to.
how am I supposed to email you all of the screen names.....?
You can IM me. I NEVER sign off.
I don't think its ridiculous, maybe people have certain reasons for not putting up their e-mail addresses [I usually do not].
WMATAGMOAGH announces a scheduled chat in that room every week on Saturday. I never come because I think a Saturday night chat and I either forget or have something better to do. Odd, because I used to be in charge there and set up Saturday as the official day!
The last time I was there there was a good crowd.
BTW, did we meet last week?
As to who shows up, there is a very small core group, and then a mix of BusTalkers and SubTalkers which changes from week to week.
I don't understand, what exactly should I change the caption to say? Also, is it ok for me to post the "group photo" from this evening here? (the photo I haven't posted yet...)
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
Jimmy
Jimmy
Here's proof Fred can smile. Even on the Brighton :).
Jimmy :)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Cuddly... lovable... Fred, how many years has it been since you looked in a mirror? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whimpering :)
So that I can torture him about how great my Brighton Line is compared to his Sea Beach.
All what's left and to complete Fred's trip was to ride the Brighton Line for a few minutes. Sure enough, a Q diamond express train pulls in and Fred and I were off towards Kings Highway. Fred said it was getting late, so we settled on getting off at Newkirk Ave. I showed Fred the scaffolding beams holding up the station, and the stickers on the beams that indicate they come from Germany. We went outside fare control so that I can show Fred something that he will NEVER see on the Sea Beach line, the BRT plaque, installed in 1908, introducing the current Brighton Line. (We all know here that the Brighton line in 1908, used the Shuttle ROW, turned onto Fulton St to Park Row in Manhattan.)
We took the next train northbound beacuse I had to go back to Atlantic Ave for a few minutes there. We discussed some poilitcal and off-topic matters, said goodbye at Atlantic (I got off the train while Fred continued his way back to his hotel in Manhattan.). Time for me to go shopping at Pathmark at Atlantic Center at that point, then next Q train back to Newkirk and home.
I had a spendid time with you Fred, nice to meet you. Looking forward to be on the first N train over the bridge in February, 2004 with you and the rest of the Subtalk gang, (after the first D trains to Brooklyn earlier that morning).
R40M N 4494
R40M Q 4542
R68 FAS 2916
R40S Q 4344
R68 Q 2837
You can be sure I'll be there!
Great write up.
I will be a real Subtalk party on a Saturday night, midnight at 6th Ave/34th st, Downtown platform. Separate ways to kill some time or hanging out at a pre-determined stop, then back at 5:30 AM, at Dekalb Ave for first N train over the Bridge.
Hope there is not much snow to slow us down on that day.
Are you planning a trip out for it?
Great trip report; I've been waiting to hear how the rest of the evening played out. I'll get some photos posted soon...
I wonder if you'll be around for the first "N" train over the Manhattan Bridge in perhaps almost 18 years. I'm sure that you'll be happy and I plan to a an "N" train over the Manhattan Bridge when the time comes. Maybe the once great Sea Beach line will return to its former status.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
No you are incorrect:
When regular "N" service is restored in February 2004. It will be the first time regular "N" service has run over the Manhattan Bridge since September 1990.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Do they use a redbird as an additional car for the 11 car sets often? Or was this one being carried along for the ride?
Also to note, On the Q - both the Diamond and Regular - I saw what appeared to be the R40 (not Shovelnoses) and R42s. What happened to the R68/R68As?
Perhaps if you put spaces between the bracket and the characters in question...
< Q >
Hey, it works!
I said R40/R42. One or the other.
When did the N become all slant? I remember riding an N R68/A (I forgot the number) maybe 3 months ago
Another slip-up. MOSTLY SLANT, I meant. The N still runs R68/A's.
Yes, I know the whole reason is so that the old equipment is on part-time lines. But from a customer point of view it'd be nice to have correct rollsigns.
But from a strictly utilitarian standpoint, you are correct.
Or, alternatively, replace the R-40 rollsigns already! The R-68's got new ones in 2001; when do the R-40's get theirs?
The R-32s on the F also suffer this problem, again signs read Kings Highway, train continues to Ave X. Additionaly I'll bet many F riders don't even know where the rollsigns are on an R-32 after all those years of 100% R-46s they got shoved down their throat (no joke, every time one rolls in at W4th I see people remain on the platform. Since the F serves every station south of W4, there's no reason for anyone to still be there!).
For starters, CIY seems to treat the R-40 slants and the R-40M's identically. Wherever R-40's show up, they can be of either variety.
The diamond-Q has R-40's. The circle-Q has R-68's (an occasional R-68A may also show up). The W has R-68A's (an occasional R-68 may also show up). The N has mostly R-40's, with a few R-68's or R-68A's. The shuttle, of course, has its own dedicated fleet of nine R-68's.
On weekends, since the W runs local, it picks up a few R-40's, and since the Q is temporarily running through the tunnel, it also gets a few.
(Do I have to post photos?)
The N runs exclusively R-68's and R-68A's at night, for OPTO.
Cars aren't assigned permanently to one line. An R-40M sighted on the diamond-Q on Thursday might show up on the N on Friday and on the W on Saturday.
For those unable to see it on the Queens Blvd Line, I saw a second appearance of this train, led by 9311 later in the afternoon at 46th Street/Bliss on the 7. I think the whole train was 11 cars long.
I guess it was coming from Jamaica Yard, or somewhere in that general direction. It then went on the Broadway Line and reversed somewhere (Canal? City Hall LL? Whitehall?) and went up the N to Queensboro Plaza and up to Corona Yard. Did anyone else see this unusual train?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Those are the R40M's [4450-4549] and there are no R42's currently except 4665 which is mated to 4460 due to the Willy-B accident in 1995. The Q diamond uses R40's and R40M's while the Q local uses the R68/R68A's BUT on weekends you will find a slant or 2 due to the Q running via Montague.
Got your draft card yet? :-)
-Robert King
REAL REASON: Sure that's the excuse they give, but there is chances of the draft being restored are somewhere between -slim and nill.
The DOD wants your name so it can sell it to direct marketing services.
-Robert King
Absolutely. For example, the next time you're watching a game on TV, and yell for your woman to bring you another beer, you should allow her at least ten seconds to get it to you.
Oh, and by the way:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
Oh, and by the way:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
What is this world coming to !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Jealous of it?
Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
Urban legend alert!
So obviously the age to keep is 21, not 18. I'm sick of having to ask my parents to buy me alcoholic beverages.
My birthday is in a few months. I don't mind not having any for a few years.
A 19th birthday is nothing. There is no milestone.
It still stands, and it's not a wigsphere.
Although I think you might be able to buy an Al Gore doll.
O.K. Chris, hop on a flight to London, then you can drink legally *and* railfan the tube!
Chuck Greene
I have seen this formula repeated in business, athletics, cinema, education, psychology, medicine and plenty of other fields. Far too many people today aren't willing to work hard.
Number 2 -- Be willing to admit when you're wrong or that you don't know something. You'll be amazed at how well people react to such admissions.
Happy Birthday!
CG
(I hear it tends to be more fun that way..)
But what's really fun is driving around the city 3am. Ah, a source of many wasted hours.
NO! I love rush hour traffic. I learned to drive in Manhattan rush hour traffic.
Speeding on the open road is also fun, but it's also illegal. Heavy street traffic allows you to do a lot of fun moves while still driving completely reckfully.
And 'calculating' and 'reckless' certainly aren't antonyms:
I'm calculating the square root of 4.
*I'm reckless the square root of 4.
Entry Word: reckless
Function: adjective
Text: 1
Synonyms ADVENTUROUS, adventuresome, audacious, daredevil, daring, foolhardy, rash, temerarious, venturesome, venturous
Related Word desperate, hopeless
2
Synonyms RASH 1, brash, hasty, hotheaded, ill-advised, incautious, inconsiderate, mad-brained, madcap, thoughtless
Antonyms calculating
3
Synonyms IRRESPONSIBLE, carefree, careless, feckless, incautious, uncareful, wild
A glimmer of hope just came to my eyes.
--
Charles Darwin
Ah, but what about your friend the driver? Was he experienced at driving at such high speeds? There's no margin for error when you're traveling at 135 mph, none at all.
Yes, he was. He even did one of those Skip Barber Racing School things where you run Dodge Vipers around a track. BTW, here is a photo of the dash of a similar Maxima SE (the carbon fiber dash kit is not standard):
You mean a railcar, right? I would hope people would not be that reckless with motor vehicles.
I will note that I did it on a deserted Meritt Parkway, I would not attempt going over 75 with any other cars around.
Thunder, Fire, or Sun?
LOL, thought I was gonna make an import related comment?
Now that I look back what I did was stupid (I was 18 at the time) as the car didn't have Z rated tires, and also lucky. But after my friend having done it the week before (in his 88 Camaro) I had to.
Rail related: While we're talking about speed here, what's the fastest running train in the U.S. (it must reach this speed on the regular to qualify as the answer)?
I think it's between Thurston St in Pawtucket and Douglas Ave in Attleboro ;)
No, but that's not really what I was talking about.
Well you can prove yourself to be a man by taking on Kool-D's offer to ride the system within 25 hours, provided you stay awake. And if you do, YOU DA MAN !
Happy birthday !!
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right might Brighton Line 'bro.
Not that I patronize strip clubs, indeed I can think of few less exciting activities than seeing a bunch of drunken 'tards leer at some drug-addicted skank who'll probably be on welfare once she gets too old and/or fat to keep stripping, but wouldn't they have to restrict attendance to people 21 and over due to their serving alcohol?
Here in Atlanta, home to some of the most liberal strip club laws (the only reason we are a major convention city, we also have more strip clubs per capita than any other city in the country), many strip clubs that allow 18 year olds will stamp those who are over 21. We still have 21 and over clubs, I guess so that they don't have to hassle with stamping hands, plus 18 years don't spend as much as older folks.
I doubt he'd get any at a strip joint. Not too many single female patrons hang out there.
He'd be better off calling one of those "massage" services that advertise in the back pages of the Village Voice.
I've heard that men who go to strip clubs can drop hundreds of dollars on lap dances and not "get anything." While I have no idea what a massage parlor costs, it's probably less than a strip club and at least the patrons get something in return for their money.
So that's why you're always late to ERA meetings!
College also gives you the opportunity to get those jobs a notch above the McJobs. What is your career path at Mickey D's or Wall-Mart ?
Management working shifts with days off during the week ? This week-end I met a used car salesman who had run his own business for six years & is now back to just an employee :-(
2) If you strive to make others happy, you have a shot at being happy yourself. If you expect others to make you happy, expect to be disappointed.
As for some advice, go to college, strive to be one of the best at work and remember charity begins at home. And finally, there is a golden egg for you somewhere, it will hatch for you in the most defining moment in one person's life in a positive moment. When that egg hatches, CARPE DIEM (Seize the day)!
Don't be scared. Life remains great, but you'll lament about what you didn't do or experience when you had the chance. That time, for you, is ahead. For me, it's as much a part of history as a redbird on the #6.
Green = Express
Red = Local
the way it usually is outside of Manhattan
the MTA proposed to run the (2) and <5> express and the (5) local, but Dyre Riders would lose their express service, and that's too important to them
White Plains Road also has express service, although it can take a while for it to show up
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/03/nyregion/03MAYH.html
It doesn't only happen there. Many T/D's seem to view local stations as entirely dispensable, and would rather keep local passengers waiting a half hour than slow down an express by a few minutes.
Before 63st it was very common to see Queensbound Es and Fs arrive at Roosevelt on the local track, and cross them to the express, if the express is congested. And of course with Es and Fs running through dumping their loads for a half hour, the first real local is ALWAYS going to be a G.
That has nothing to do with the service in the Bronx. One could argue that the Concourse express should be the CPW local, because it has a longer route in manhattan. It's manhattan route has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it runs express in manhattan. That said, they run the < 5 > express because Lex is a more popular line than 7th avenue.
1948 run the 7 Av Exp 180 ST/Bronx Park (now abandoned)-Brooklyn,
the Lex Exp 241St-Brooklyn (with some peak Bronx Exp) and a Dyre St
Shuttle.
Later the 7 Av Exp terminated Dyre and at night at 241 St
and Dyre were Night-Shuttle.
To avoid confusion (?) the 7 Av Exp and Lex Exp swaped their
Bronx terminals all times except the peak Exp (now <5>).
So we have the current service.
Found on pages with historical maps/service scans (but not enough
historical info in the WWW!!!!!)
And exactly what end is the "front" end of DeKalb Avenue? And what do you mean by "upstairs"? In the mezzaine, in a building, or on the street?
The 24/7 entrance is also on the western portion of the station. Part time exit is at the eastern end.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i7000/img_7713.jpg
The sun does NOT shine from north to south......
No but it goes from east (the right) to west (left) in this photo.
Looking at the shadows I can tell that this picture was taken in the A.M.
--Mark
I think it's between West 8th St. and Ocean Pkwy. More closer to West 8th St.
I don't know if it's still there today, but a couple of years ago, I saw one rail embedded in the dirt for this streetcar line. It was under the "el" only yards from West 8th St. station.
Bill "Newkirk"
It can be, because the trolley ROW was between West 8th and Ocean Pkwy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Only a few yards from the West 8th St. station. If you are in the area, and if it's still there, there should be a single rail still embedded in the dirt, crossing under the "el". I saw this myself, I hope it's still there. Probably the only piece of the streetcar line, not counting the insulator brackets suspended on the "el".
That rail should be for the McDonald Ave trolley line that ran under then Culver "el". Looking at that B&W photo, the PCC was on the right hand track and the left hand track should be for the McDonald Ave line. Sorta like a "wye" track. I just checked my copy of the book "Brooklyn Trolleys" by James Greller and Ed Watson. That line is on the enclosed fold out map on the inside back cover. As Kevin Walsh says, "the past is all around us".
Bill "Newkirk"
As in........ gave it away without consulting us PROS??
My Webshots photos of the museum train at Whitlock Ave on its way to Grand Central shuttle track 1 (the last 6 shots on the page)
Very nice pictures, could you explain to a novice what "Private Varnish" means?
Thanks
Well here are some shots from GCT today:
Dec 26
Feb 15
Mar 8
:co
Here's some of them:
Forest Parkway:
Lorimer Street:
Flushing Avenue:
I love the 4th one, with the spark and the 3 trains passing at once.
The (M) was still decently crowded leaving Myrtle.
The first time I did that, the (M) crossed before we got in the station, and we had to wait outside Myrtle. Since that time, every J has been allowed to enter, and left first. I watched the waiting (M) train wait for 5 minutes from down on the street.
But one would think the M would run express in the PM rush to expedite the switching, as there would be less cross-traffic.
No. First of all, it's confusing if the J/Z run exp in the AM and then the M in the PM. Also, the Broadway el has more passengers than the Myrtle el, and a much longer route. It makes sense to run the J/Z the express always.
What they should do is run every J train ahead of the M train. The J will be waiting at Broad anyway, so you don't have to worry about it arriving at the junction late.
Hmmm...that's strange...I almost always see the M leave first. The only time I've seen the J/Z leave first is if it's late (or the M's early). Then again the J and Z are notorious for being late...
You couldn't be more wrong. Lots of J riders in the AM will get off at Myrtle to get an M to Flushing, Lorimer or Hewes.
BTW, I hate that god-damned new structure placed in between the tracks. Destroys the view.
As for those stupid structures, I agree, and they are everywhere now. I had a hard time framing photos at Forest Parkway because of them.
What the hell are all those structures all over the place anyway? They didn't seem to be necessary years ago.
Yeah me too, there must be a reason why I always wind up railfanning the J or M when I get a chance.....
Ahem.
It would be interesting to see if the area's recovery has been reflected in increased turnstile counts at the stations along that stretch.
I remember seeing the abandoned Woolworth's back in the 80's. They are doing some work on that Gates movie theater. It's going to be used for something after all these years, not a theater of course though, but at least it won't be abandoned anymore. The interior was probably not salvagable.
There was also a very beautiful movie house on the courner of Howard and Broadway[RKO,I think] that was closed for years[I saw James Brown there once as a kid].
I don't remember a theater at Howard and Broadway. That's proabably before my memory. (although it wouldn't happen to be this buildng would it? This is one of David Pirman's mystery photos, and we were trying to figure out where this building and what station was, which looks like it may have been along the Broadway el, but the building is gone possibly).
There was also an great old theater at the western end of the Myrle Ave station. It was also abandoned for years when I first saw it. I don't know what it was called, but it was very old. I have seen photos of it in the backround when they were rebuilding the Broadway el in the 1910's, and it was there (you can also see it in a scene in the movie "Ghost"). That theater had a sad ending, about 5 years ago it was demolished, and for a few months, all that was standing was the stage wall. It was so interesting to see the whole interior of the theater from the station during demolision. It had beautiful plasterwork and Roman columns inside. That whole Broadway area must have been some great area before it fell into decline and fell apart...it was even interesting the lowpoint.
Well, to bring this back on topic, here are some photos of that ride:
I thought this was cool because of the flag:
Lotta peeps sporting the 'REESE' look.
People ride trains.
People (dont care) as much as we do.
People (don't know) about this site.
......zo how can we expect outsiders to zee their pic here?
Now that is just mysterious and interesting [especially in the subway]. You think your chances of winning the Lotto will go up LOL :-D.
WHAT happened last time??
Did she pull a BIE on Bri??
Whateva floats your boats, boiz. :) lol
Geez, what a disappointment. With that title on this thread I was expecting a Penthouse Forum letter. :-)
Tom
It only seems to happen when there is a train in the station, as I took this photo moments later, and there is no haze. It can't be train movement because the 6 is stopped in the above photo.
Although in the 2nd one it does seem like there is a reflection of the train's side in the "dust". This happened to me once-it's in one of my photos in the Grand Central Terminal thread. The white/red stripe reflected in dust just a few inches above where it actually is.
Some of them are very photogenic but they can't seem to get it together so you get the haze.
(^_^) etc.
While SB trains can currently use either the north track or the middle track, when the Canal realignment is finished, NB trains will have to use the middle track, so SB trains will have to use the north track.
The wall platform also has a direct street exit and a nice new connection to the IND mezzanine (which essentially is a second direct street exit). The island platform only has the narrow staircases to the IND platforms.
A removeable bridge, like the one at the Times Square shuttle station, should connect to the south side mezzanine.
And I still don't see what's wrong with leaving a bit of history in plain sight. Turn on the lights!
Oh I agree with that. That's why I said they should install a switch if they were going to wall it up, and make Essex a two Wall platform station. I feel if they are going to leave the Queens track in view, they should install a switch anyway, so trains from Bowery can still access that track, and 6th Ave tracks can access the middle track.
As for my ideas of putting a tack wall along the Queens track, or walling it off completely to make a two wall platform station, that would only be if they just left the trolley station the way it is. If however they cleaned it up, I wouldn't want it covered. In fact, maybe they should even make it an part of the Transit museum, and pull in some of the trains that the TM stores at COney Island. The Trolley trackways are the same gauge, so if they redid them, they could store trains on the old trackways. The biggest problem is though that the platforms for the trollies were all obviously low level platforms. That could be a problem with having the public come visit. And with ADA requirements, even for a museum, it would hard to that.
In fact, maybe they should even make it an part of the Transit museum, and pull in some of the trains that the TM stores at COney Island.
Not feasible, IMO. The curves are way too sharp. I doubt even an IRT car could manage those turns. Maybe they should do that with Canal and Bowery [the unused platforms]. Plenty of space there for one each of the new car classes that will be incoming in 2005 (R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42, and maybe even R44). They can even store that R40-R40M R40M-R40M R40M-R40M R40M-R40 bullet train without gates that everyone's been dreaming about!
I would really like to see the tiling of the original "Delancey Street" tablet, if one ever existed there.
In most cases I agree, but at Essex, those weird mosaics were only put there in 1989 or so, so no loss. That cement block wall is about a stairway's length away from the original wall there. Before 1989, Essex's original wall was exposed, and there were about three or four stairways (ala the IND) that went up. Then there was a fence (such as at 36th Street on QB, or Atlantic IRT), that blocked off all those stairways, around where the cement block wall is now. It was a real mess, because they stored all kinds of back there, and it was all in plain sight.
The original tile walls at Essex had NO mosaics, and NO name tablets. It was just plain white tile from wall the ceiling, in the same brick style that they are now installing. The only signs at Essex were standard subway black with white letters metal signs attached to the "jail" bar fence.
The mosaics now being covered were one of the first attemps to recreate mosaics done by the MTA. As primitive as they are, that wall was a vast improvement over what was there. It can only get better from this point.
I hope this makes sense, as I'm typing this during a break at a BBQ, and have had a bit to drink, what's the 4th without some beer!!!
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!!
Same to you. Now go! Drink some more. You seem way too sober.
I agree it was just awful and plain but now it will improve the station big time like they did at Atlantic Av on the Q. But as said the Essex wall was only in place since 1989 and now its getting a proper makeover.
wayne
Space for new mosaics
What is behind that blue plywood square?
I may be able to help, please use my e-mail.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
Mark
At least they get to experience the CPW express on their final run under their own power (albeit slowly).
I have a bad feeling that 9450-51 are next. BTW, where are the Subway Series cars? What set are they with? I saw them (9394-95) with 9702-03 & 9710-11 about several weeks ago. Still with them?
In Corona Yard
At Times Square
If you go there today, they have already driven some pipes in and have some sort of tarp over the entire thing.
The passenger-unfriendly cars with the poorly designed computerized features that so many railfans enjoy belong in a museum.
Straps suck. They swing from side-to-side providing NO support, and when all of the ones near you are occupied, you're screwed. The R-62s and R-142s have more vertical poles for those who need them.
The R-62s have color-coded rollsigns, but what difference does it make? Color is not the final designator of a train, and on the IRT it's rare to have two trains on the same line with different colors (only the 2 and 5).
Side-to-side support is unnecessary. Trains don't suddenly accelerate or decelerate from side to side. There's no need to strain everyone's wrists over harmless sway.
Front-to-back support is all that's necessary, and straps provide it better than overhead bars that run front to back.
R-17 straps have obvious spaces for two non-touching hands per strap. They're superior to Redbird straps in utility and in aesthetics.
The R-62s and R-142s have more vertical poles for those who need them.
That doesn't do much good if they're already in use.
I have nothing against bus-style straps, attached to overhead bars, but straps are useful to many.
The R-62s have color-coded rollsigns, but what difference does it make? Color is not the final designator of a train, and on the IRT it's rare to have two trains on the same line with different colors (only the 2 and 5).
The subway is hardly known for its stellar signage. One of its positive points is its use of a distinct and consistent logo for each line, consisting of a white or black letter or numeral on a solidly colored background of either a circle or a diamond. The logo for (e.g.) the 4 train, as depicted on the map, on all permanent station signage, on the R-62's, and on the Redbirds, is a white 4 inside a solid green circle. Neither a yellow 4 on a black background nor a red 4 on a black background surrounded by a hollow red circle, nor even a green numeral 4 enclosed in green parentheses on a black background, is the logo for the 4 train. Given how easy it is to get lost on the subway, it hardly makes sense to abandon one of the system's few straightforward navigational aids.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfr213_99.html
Running faster than 80 mph without PTS is not dangerous; trains were using CTC and cab signals prior to the edict. The ICC set that speed in reaction to an accident. Prior to that, speeds of passenger trains often exceeded 100 mph and most lines that allowed that speed were cab-signalled. Nowadays, if a road has cab signals, the fastest speed allowed is 90 mph; for faster than that, you have to put in the PTS. Basically, the ICC told the railroads that if they wanted to run their trains at the speeds they had been running them at, they would have to pay for all the additional signaling themselves; that was one factor in the trains slowing down to 79 mph for the most part.
In truth, this was merely an excuse for the ICC to help the interstate highways become competitive and to introduce the “superior qualities” of airline travel. Quite unfair.
Rail entities cannot be trusted to invent their own definition of safety
Neither can our federal rail agencies be trusted to fund improvements in order to help passenger rail become competitive again.
In 1922 when the regulations were first devoloped it was in responce to an alarming rise in accidents (even though most were derailments or grade crossing related), they gave railroads until 1948 to implement the technologies. In 1922 Interstates weren't even concieved of.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
Back-lighted photo (cloudy)
You know of one for $300 or less?
Peace,
ANDEE
But then again, there are gas station attendents who laboriously keep clicking in a few more drops until the pump rolls over to an even dollar amount... even though I am paying with a credit card.
If I pay by credit card for a meal, I'll give an "odd amount" tip in order to make the whole charge an even dollar figure. Just a habit.
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S009_R42_J_Cy
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S011_R42_M_Ko
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S012_R143_L_BJ
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1303_200_Bway
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1307_242_Yd - I wish I had thought of doing that.
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1332_Worth_Lex
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1342_R15_6239_1_BB
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1362_242_Yd
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1374_R12_5760_231_Bwy How in the ???? did you pull this off????
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1417_Plhm_Yd - Thanks for showing me what I missed
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1431_Group_Photo - Ok, that made my day. Thanks.
How in the ???? did you pull this off????
I thought I told you that story? Guess not...
Thanks for showing me what I missed
Ya didn' miss much. That double red was as far as we went. I was shocked we didn't go through at least one of the loops (actually I was kinda hoping we'd do all 3).
Ok, that made my day. Thanks.
That doesn't say much, since it's only 2 hours into said day. LOL. You're welcome.
THANKS FOR THE LIT 1 ROLLSIGN, brah!!!!!!!!!
GREAT gallery you gots there, too!!
--Mark
(If you EVER wanna sell the original (or reprint)~!!
Mark
til next time
Mark
From the front, of course, you're right.
Mark
on the New York City Subway Cars page looks decievingly rectilinear, more like an R62, at least to my untrained eye. Maybe it was the angle of the shot or something. I was looking for that wedge shape when I was trying to identify the car, so I passed by thte R42s entirely. Thanks folks for clearing this up for me.
Mark
til next time
Now take a look at this N and R service advisory. NOTE: The bullets will not come out in adobe acrobat, don't worry about it.
Special thanks to David J. Greenberger who told me this mixup last Sunday during the MOD trip.
I takes really poor management to be able to maintain such poor service for such a sustainted period of time. I've been living in Kingsbridge for over 2years now and there has been no improvement in the two years I've been treated to leisurly trips home in the evening.
I suggested on this board, since you are a resident in Kingsbridge that has more teeth, that during AM and PM rush hours every other #1 train relays at Dyckman St, so there would be less trains from Dyckman to 242/VCP and skip-stop is killed off. But this would also improve service in the long run. Since you are a resident in Kingsbridge that has more teeth, you should write or email to the MTA on this suggestion.
Case & point another reason why the 1/9 skip stop is unreliable, and its supposed to save 4-5 minutes, right! :-\
Another possibility: this is only referring to late night R service. The express tracks at Pacific may be closed, so nothing can terminate there. So during the day, the R will run to Whitehall, and at night it will terminate at 36th along with the N.
Rs are supposed to be running in two sections - Continental to 2 Ave and 95 to Whitehall; Ws drop out at 42 St and Qs run local from Canal to 57
71st/FH to 2nd Ave (via. V line)
Whitehall to Pacific
36th st to 95th st
Even NYCT got me confused, I made an error in an earlier post that the N is turning at Pacific, when it actuall STARTS at Pacific St on weekends. So only the R can turn at Pacific while the N runs from 36th st to 86th st, both in Brooklyn.
I think I figured it out. The express tracks are closed at Pacific. Whatever normally relays at Pacific (the N all weekend, the R late nights only) is instead terminating at 36th.
The rest of the weekend, the Brooklyn R is terminating at Whitehall.
Of course, that's not what the advisories say, but I think that's what they mean.
(Besides, he may already have a job he's happy with.)
Peace,
ANDEE
As a C/R I loved both the R and the V. The V because the run was short, and the R because the most that I was doing was 2 trips. And the R does have a lot of good GOs (shortlining to either Canal or Whitehall).
Now how did I know that the B & Q would be your top choices ;-).
GO #2 - takes out F3 from Gold St to north of 36 and F4 from north of 36 to Pacific. 0001 Sat to 0500 Monday.
N shortlined to 36 St.
R midnight Shuttle shortlined to 36 St.
Anyone know where Global Default Zone is? Perhaps 76th Street is on that line....
Peace,
ANDEE
Three or four Christmases ago, I was visiting my grandmother and step-grandad (ex-CRNJ trainmaster, BTW) in St. Petersburg, Fla. My wife and I had occasion to journey across the bay to visit Tampa, where we went to the aquarium and Ybor City. At the time, I recall thinking how well a trolley line would work in or between those 2 areas. Honestly, I had no knowledge at the time that the TECO Streetcar System was in the works, but now it is up and running serving not only the tourists which it was intended to, but also the area's commuters.
Granted, the area had already been developed and become a tourist attraction before the trolley line was built, but it rather disturbs me that there is no one in New York with enough vision (or, I guess, money) to transform the Brooklyn waterfront into just such a destination, complete with its own streetcar line, modeled after the one in Tampa.
I have never been to Red Hook, so I am unfamiliar with the area. I don't know if such development would be possible there. But you have to admit that, given the TECO system, trolleys on the Brooklyn waterfront is not that far-fetched an idea. It would be an alternative to auto traffic, a commuter line and a tourist attraction. More ambitious and less successful things have been built in New York. The only things in the way are financing and inertia. (Perhaps development tied to the 2012 Olympics could include waterfront streetcars. Of course, NYC has to win the bid, and these trolleys would be in Queens, but why quibble.)
Since it appears that poor Bob Diamond's dream of a trolley line, which really was a trolley line for a trolley line's sake (and, believe me, as a streetcar fan I have no problem at all with that!), is dying, I propose that our one hope might be for the city and/or a private developer to revive the idea by tying it to general development of the area. It might take years, but such a project might remove the perception that trolleys once again rolling along Brooklyn streets is simply the pipe dream of one silly railfan.
I don't say this to insult you, Bob. I'm all for streetcars once again plying the streets of my adopted home borough. I've read your website, and I know this project wasn't simply a plaything for you and your organization. The line made sense as both a historic attraction and public service. It just seems like you are fighting a losing battle against City Hall after a sad series of events which were mostly out of your control. What little support you have from people like us seems not enough to make a difference, and the media appears not at all interested in your plight. I can't tell you how this turn of events breaks my heart.
But I really believe there is hope for streetcars in Brooklyn, especially given recent tourist-inspired streetcar line construction in places like New Orleans and Tampa, both of whose lines serve city residents as well as visitors. It's just too bad you're only Bob Diamond, and not Bob Trump.
City Hall, and for that matter Albany, simply don't care about our needs, just their own. And what's their excuse - "Hey, what did you expect? This is New York!" Sad. And as long as we have folks in City Hall with no vision, there's no hope for visionary projects such as the Red Hook trolley line. It's great to have bold thinkers and doers like Bob Diamond. Shame that DOT and City Hall screwed him.
"This is New York" is also what you might hear from a corporate CEO when he explains why he's moving his company to the Sunbelt.
Now it appears it's going to be a commercial area with a big grocery store to be the first new use of the realestate. Bob Diamond's stuff is in the way of the planned parking lot & his trolley tracks just don't fit in. It's realy too bad ... would have, should have, could have :-(
The City also is apparently moving to do something similar (commercial or residential development) a little further East, after they evict New York Cross Harbor.
Yet surely it would have been possible to accommodate the trolley project within the neighborhood's development. Of course, that would have required some ability on the city's part to negotiate and compromise, an ability which it lacked. A true disgrace.
Skagway Webcam
Mark
Thank you,
Flushing7
(Larry)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160 (NYCTBA Webmaster)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Plus there were times (before the installation kits) that object files and such ended up in my AOL folder instead of the BVE folder. =(
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Try finding out yourself and report back, kapisce??
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Here's a link to the schedules.
--Mark
Pete is looking to ride this bus because he wants to railfan the Pascack Valley Line. Since the Pascack Valley line runs only one way each rush hour, the only way to do it without a car is with this bus.
Still, those are buses. Because they facilitate railfanning, they are not off topic.
Therefore people should talk about transit and not be annoying netcops.
The TZX Schedule includes the fare on the penultimate page: $1.50.
I'm not in the Model UN, but I would like the monkey butlers.
til next time
Not only is it easier to turn trains at Essex, it also allows passengers who didn't realize they weren't on a normal R to transfer to the regular R at Canal or to the F at Essex.
You're looking at a 4 train advisory. All that's relevant to 4 passengers is that this funky R runs between Chambers and Pacific.
(Do you think the south terminal is Pacific, as the advisory also suggests? Then what line goes to 95th?)
It'd be a neat trick to see DeKalb turn a train at Pacific too.
Reminds me of what the 1 did one weekend last summer: terminate at 34th, relay at Chambers, and go back into service at Franklin. I never did figure out why it didn't stay in service to Franklin or at least to 14th.
What other long relays have there been? The M weekend shuttle to Marcy when one of the local tracks is closed for a GO is a moderately long one.
I see no reason tunnel trains couldn't switch to the express track and do the same. (The N, of course, would have to be diverted.)
6s on occaision use the yard lead at Westchester Yard.
The 2/5 GO of a few months ago had 5s relaying at 167 St.
Cs have been known to relay in Pitkin Yard (not just on the leads).
The Jamaica Yard leads are used for R/V relays on a regular basis.
The H used to relay at Howard Beach (and even after the spur was open would occaisionally do so until track F2 was O/O/S).
Relaying to the yard on the N is considered a long relay (used when the W is running on teh Sea Beach).
Aren't there occasions when the Q relays at Stillwell?
Which of these is the longest? I think the 1 relaying from 34th to Chambers is still the winner.
Which of these is the longest? I think the 1 relaying from 34th to Chambers is still the winner.
No idea, but oy're probably right.
-Stef
(In either case, there was no reason at all to close 28th, 23rd, and 18th SB.)
What an odd GO.
Buit you're right it doesn't make sense to skip the local stops. But eh, sometimes to TA does funky things. At least with the D's long relaying to Second Avenue, Skipping Bway-Laf they have a valid reason.
The relay you describe is also used when the J is rerouted to the express track in one direction. The M can't turn on the middle track, since it would get in the way ot J trains, so it runs light to Marcy middle and back.
In the 9th Avenue incident, could M trains have discharged at 36th and relayed on the Sea Beach middle? Or was that track not available yet? (I assume 9th lower wasn't an option.)
No Sure Route to the Shore
I thought it was a little odd that there was no mention of NJT's commuter rail service between 30th Street and Atlantic City as an alternative to congested highways. I know this system has flaws, but they could have at least talked about that. If train service isn't a practical, then they could have said something about why it isn't, instead of just writing as if there were no rail service at all.
Mark
Atlantic City is the only town with a critical mass of year-round residents to make public transit a go, particularly since the advent of the casino industry. If that industry didn`t take root there, I think even that small system would not survive in the form it is today.
Mark
Thanks for another great shot!
Mark
Thanks.
There is no Track #7.
The H Avenue station, on the border of Midwood and Flatbush, is an example of the area's old-fashioned charm. The 97-year-old structure was originally a real estate office, but now serves riders on the Q local. New York City Transit is rehabilitating the Q stations, so Avenue H's future is up for debate. The wooden station is considered a fire hazard by the authority, which proposed to demolish it and build a new station. Community District 14, representing Flatbush and Midwood, is fighting that plan. "We have gone back to the drawing board," said Deirdre Parker, a Metropolitan Transportation Authority spokeswoman. "We are looking for alternative ways to keep it the way it is."
Meanwhile, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission is considering a request to designate the station a landmark and the surrounding neighborhood in Flatbush, Fiske Terrace, a historic district. The petition cites the enclave, named for the family that sold the property to the developer, for its distinguished older Victorian homes, many with curving front porches.
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
NYCT will rehabilitate the T.B. Ackerson Real Estate office but will preserve the exterior of the building. What a scared landmark that should've been a long time ago.
You know, one of those streets out in 718-land, as reported by the same paper that, a couple weeks ago, profiled actor Frankie G and published a photo of him sitting in "a park in Flushing." Arthur Ashe Stadium was clearly visible in the background.
Staten Island, I think. It's all the same ;).
(Can't anyone tell a joke?)
Peace,
ANDEE
If it weren't for that boat race ~250 years ago, Staten Island might be 201 today.
735 doesn't exist yet.
DOT is never wrong :)
--Mark
--Mark
Sure they are; ever been to the corner of Ave I & Utica St in Brooklyn? :)
At least they didn't make the same mistake in the Bleecker subway station, like they did at Beverley on the Flatbush IRT.
But isn't there some debate as to Beverley's correct spelling?
Yes, and here is an article about it:
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverly.htm
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverley.htm
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverly.htm
NO, the article made it clear that it's WITH the e :)
Look at this 1951 subway map. It has both stations spelled as BeverLEY Road.
The 1959 subway map, same thing.
But the 1972 map has BeverLEY and BeverLY road respectively.
A 1990 subway map (with the N train going over the Bridge, briefly) had BeverLY road on the Brighton Line and BeverLEY Road on the IRT line, all mixed up.
Now who is to blame for this?
but the 1937 BMT map spells it BeverlEY on the map, then back to BeverlY on the service guide.
Weird
If you go to the boardwalk at Coney Island, one of the signs will inform you that you're on the RIEGELMANN BOARDDWALK.
I can't blame NYCDOT for ths one, obviously, but I always enjoyed the street sign near New Paltz for MOUNTIAN REST RD.
The upper Hudson Valley is a HUMID place this time of year. Woof.
Of course, but the people you are telling it to have to realize you're telling a joke.
And because it doesn't meet code, and because if there is ever a fire and someone is injured they'll sue the MTA for $100 million dollars, and all the pols will be bashing the incompetent murderous MTA.
The MTA and NYCT are exempt from all local health and building regulations by NYS statute.
That prevents a court order forcing them to fix it. But it doesn't prevent the possibility of punitive damages if there is a future serious injury. "You mean you knew it was contrary to code and you didn't order it fixed?"
The MTA's adherence to local codes and regulations appears to be based on the MTA's convenience and not public safety nor the fear of legal action. Just about every station in the system has some serious fire code violations. Many violations are by design. Recent renovations have not addressed such violations. Many recent renovations have made the obvious violations worse.
Removing these violations system-wide is a very expensive undertaking. The MTA has conveniently forgotten about them. However, should the public demand that the MTA spend a couple of cents to raise the esthetics of their bland station design, the MTA's knee jerk reaction is "code violation".
My impression is that code is not the real reason. What is the real reason? Perhaps it's inconvenient to maintain. Perhaps it would be more costly to upgrade without altering the outer structure. Perhaps it is in the way of the way they want to widen the platforms and build new staircases.
If fire danger were the real reason, you would not be able to allow visitors into most of the historic structures in this country. And if wood structures were that much of a danger, you would not find an insurer who would cover the great majority of the private homes in this country at a reasonable cost.
P.S. It was an old Moses trick to allow a disfavored structure to deteriorate to the point of danger, then say that it "had" to be torn down.
I'll repeat the question. What's H Avenue?
When someone like David Greenberger, who's been posting here for years and clearly knows a lot about all parts of NYC, asks "What's H Avenue", it seems pretty obvious that he was making fun of the reporter's mistake and not wondering where this new street was that he'd never heard of before.
I've gotten off the D train at Avenue H, although I more often used Avenue J.
I've never been to H Avenue, nor do I see one on my map.
Your words.
"I've never been to H Avenue, nor do I see one on my map."
Avenue H starts at Ocean Pkwy Around East 6th Street and travels eastward To Glenwood Road and East 58 Street. From Ocean Avenue tomNostrand Ave it is interupted by Brooklyn College.
Why can't you see THAT?
Dude, It was a joke aimed at the reporter using "H Avenue" instead of the proper "Avenue H". Look at any map and you may find Avenue H, but I think you'd have a hard time finding H Avenue. It was just a little fun pointed at the reporter's ignorance to what he was writing about. Many of us have been to Avenue H in Brooklyn, but no one here has ever been to "H Avenue", as there is no such thing. Get the joke now?
Geesh, this thread has more responses about this joke, than about the actual subject matter.
The editor too?
And it's editors? And it's proofreaders? Jest you surely!
He stayed up all night wondering if there was a Dog.
: ) Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Secondly, I spoke with Ron Schweiger last week and he told me that in lieu of the landmarking a compromise has been reached: The MTA has scaled back their original re-building plans so that ONLY the interior will get a retro-fitting and the exterior will be left as is. Obviously, this is the scenerio that has been in place for years, so to me this doesn't necessarily 'save' the structure in the future. Just keep your fingers crossed that the proposal for Landmarking Fiske Terrace goes through. Only then will the stationhouse truly be saved for generations.
Bill "Newkirk"
Transit and Weather Together tomorrow (Friday) morning from 5-11am on WCBS.
I hope I get that one soon. I did get an inagural M7 ride on the FR in mid May when I took a ride to Rosedale for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not at all. Given the all-time construction on the 7, they have to shut down a track sometimes, requiring trains to run express towards Manhattan. In any given day during this construction, I've made several observations and figured out that regular express patterns resume at 3 PM.
My correct eBay site address is now: JPSPCC699@AOL.com
(unless it was marked by a tech during workyears)..
Arti
IIRC runs from W 238 to Flatbush.... uhh 8:38 am
There used to be one morning train that ran from 242nd (not 238th, IINM), down the West Side local to Flatbush, and then back up the East Side to E180. I believe it was officially considered a 1 train on its SB run, but it was invariably signed as a 5.
It was eliminated, along with most or all other interlines, on 9/15/02.
I'd say Subway because they have 4 different kinds of bread to have a sandwich on.
My favorite chain is...Quizno's. They are a bit pricey, but you get much tastier stuff. Not dried out cold cuts made in some commissary a coupld thousand miles away like Subway puts out out here.
Forget the chains, most delis will make better sandwiches.
It's kind of funny. I've only been to Subway once and it seems the experience was better. The sandwich tasted fresher and you had free refills. But, that's only personal experience. The Blimpie's and Subway I speak of are located at Queensboro Plaza, right along the viaduct on the south side of the structure.
“Jamborees have been a highly successful way of completing a large amount of work in a short period of time,” said Tom Schmidt, vice president-engineering. “Rather than work in brief windows between train movements, we’re able to have the rail line to ourselves until the work is finished. That makes for a safer work environment and minimizes disruptions for our customers and for the communities through which we operate.”
As a key transportation artery in the Southeast, the line typically handles more than 25 trains per day. CSXT began rerouting train traffic off the line Saturday, and by Wednesday, July 9, train operations will be back to normal.
While some trains will be re-routed, the overall effect is minimized by the traditional miners’ summer vacation in late June and early July, and by extensive coordination with shippers and receivers that included early shipments of coal, merchandise and intermodal freight that preceded the Jamboree. Some coal shipments that must continue will be routed to Corbin, Ky., and down through Atlanta. Others will go via Russell, Ky., to Richmond, Va., and south over CSXT’s I-95 corridor. Norfolk Southern also is helping with some merchandise and intermodal traffic reroutes over its lines between Charlotte, N.C., and Spartanburg, S.C., and Knoxville and Kingsport, Tenn. The railroad also has contacted local officials to help ensure that the public knows the project is under way.
For the 2003 Jamboree, 17 large tie and rail crews will refurbish track segments, including 16 track miles of new rail and the replacement of 172,000 crossties. In addition, crews will repair four bridges and 18 tunnels.
Another focus of the Jamboree will be to make improvements to 153 highway-rail crossings along the line. Maintenance teams expect to keep most crossings out of service for eight to 10 hours. Some private crossings may be closed overnight.
Although revenue train operations will cease between Elkhorn City, Ky., and Laurens, S.C., during the Jamboree, residents throughout the region should remain alert to moving work equipment and trains transporting ballast, the rocky material that supports the rail and ties.
“It is critical for residents to continue to be alert to moving rail traffic, particularly at grade crossings,” Schmidt said. “Motorists and pedestrians should obey crossing gates and signals, and stop, look and listen before crossing onto railroad property.”
CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns the largest rail network in the eastern United States. CSXT and its 34,000 employees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 route-mile network in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corporation also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations through other subsidiaries.
CSXT’s Track Project – June 30-July 8
By The Numbers
Route miles of CSXT’s system involved: 318
Number of employees working on the project: 1,200+
Number of pieces of equipment: 600
Rail spikes to be used: 2,250,000
Crossties to be replaced: 172,000
Average number of crossties to be replaced per day: 22,000
Rail to be replaced: 16 track miles
Bridges to be rebuilt/repaired: 4
Tunnels to be repaired: 18
Highway-rail grade crossings to be reworked during the eight-day project: 153
Average number of trains ordinarily operating in this corridor over eight days: 200
Technically the lower level is the Culver Line, even though it ain't connected anymore.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Taken from the W line platform at 62nd Street:
Oh, damn almost forgot this: 9th Avenue was the first stop:
Alright, alright I'l stop messin' with yous. Here are some of the good ones:
Not enough? Ya ungrateful punks. Check out the rest here!
Robert
Nah, it was a layup. Its SOP to put a midday layup on C3/4 at 9th Ave.
BTW, didn't you used to be somebody else? (Handle change due to NYCT's unreasonable attitude to employees off-duty activiity and MTA suits who "lurk" here and try to catch you.)
Down here, (Baltimore) we have an operator/dispatcher who runs the local transit fan website, and our MTA suits know him. He doesn't hide. Different attitude, what you do off duty insn't the MTA's business.
Huh? Why would the MTA care? What can they possibly do anyway? When you're off the clock, you're off the clock.
-Robert King
That is an afterthought that was added to the Siemens 2000 cars to allow a barrier between cars when they are MU at a level that would be touched by a blind person's cane so he would not try to board between cars thinking it is an open doorway. I have not inspected them closely, but they appear to be magnets on the ends, and the flexible barriers are held in place by the magnets.
Tom
Not really higher tech, but more effective for their slightly different purpose. In New York, the pantographs were to prevent those who knew what they were doing from trying to enter trains from between cars. No one is going to try that with these cars since there are no end doors and no real way to hold on outside the car, so these are to prevent those who might accidently step there.
Tom
Can you see out of the portals on the east end? Or are they filled in? I've always wondered why (M) trains that are stored down there stop so short - with 1-2 cars still out of the station on the north/west side...and I know the platform is definitely longer than that. How far do the 2 tracks (the ones that end) go?
Anyway, on my last trip I sort of turned the tables on the Crash Cam and took this picture.
The Crash Cam site does not list an e-mail address or I could have sent it in.
Anyway, on my last trip I sort of turned the tables on the Crash Cam and took this picture.
The Crash Cam site does not list an e-mail address or I could have sent it in.
Hi...
That's excellent. I've been looking for a good pic of my building. Thanks so much.
The cam is in the window that's one floor below the flag and one window to the left.
BTW...lots of track and caternary work lately and a bunch of really odd looking equipment to look at.
Thanks again.
At NYCT we make a game of "Leave them behind!"
Just kididng, although I have heard some C/Rs make an attempt to leave as many behind as possible. Crew room chatter though.
People who are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know for a fact that some try to do this as spitefully as possible. The rule during off-hours is that C/R's are supposed to make all connections. Yet I've seen C/R's who will hold the door open with no one else boarding, and a train across the platform pulling in. They'll wait until the trains opens up, and close their own doors in passengers faces. They do it intentionally.
I've seen both varieties on my Midland Mainline (UK) commute - once at Bedford I got left behind by a train that was actually passing the end of the platform when the station clock (which shows seconds) showed its exact intended departure time. A half-hour wait on that occasion. But on another occasion I saw the C/R actually get off the train and go to look up the stairs at Kettering to see if any latecomers were on their way across the footbridge.
And on the flip side, a train that waits a minute won't create any problems on a line with 2-hour headways but will cause a major service breakdown on a line with 2-minute headways.
Technically speaking, expresses aren't supposed to wait for locals, and vice-versa, during rush hour. It's still frustrating when you get the door-closed-in-the-face situation.
One reason could be the increased dwell... sometimes you've made the equivalent of 2 stops at one. And some people stroll along, the C/R can have his/her doors open for a while and still someone will grab the doors that just got off the other train because they were taking their time. Fustrating.
At some stations, like Times Sq where all of the traffic is in the front, think of how fustrating it is for the C/R to get that front section closed to have an express come in, reopen then have to deal with it all again in the front.
And how come I never hear anyone complain about un(in?)courteous passengers? That leads to personnel who are the same.
No wonder everyone treats everyone else like crap.
Conductors, Stations Agents and Train Operators are people too and deserve to be treated with respect, not treated as if they OWE the customer because they're being paid.
One piece of advice a TSS gave me: "Don't put up with crap. The people are paying the TA, not you." Its true.
Mark
What happens if the local waits for a connection with the express? It falls further behind schedule.
Now it's the first train after a long gap in local service. More passengers than usual try to push on. That pushes it further behind schedule.
Eventually the local probably merges with another line. Let's say we're discussing the R -- it merges with the N and W past Queens Plaza. Because of the delays in Queens, the R ends up behind an N it was supposed to be in front of. Now there are two consecutive N's all through Manhattan where N's and R's are supposed to alternate.
Eventually the R makes it to Brooklyn, but very late. It arrives at 36th to greet a crowded platform -- the R is the only local south of that point. But since it's running late, the dispatcher instructs the crew to bypass local stops. Lots of people get off. The platform is more crowded now than it was a minute ago. The next R train has to carry the load that should have been shared by two trains. And this was all so a few people at Continental wouldn't have to wait another three or for minutes for the next local?
That said, there certainly are times when trains should wait for connections -- and when that waiting time should be written into the schedule. For instance, when all trains in one direction run express due to a GO, then they should wait at the crossover points on the return trip. It's easy to rewrite the schedule to accomodate the wait -- whatever time is saved in the express run should be "waited out" on the return trip, not immediately following the express run, as is so often done.
Very good point. Working at 240 tower I found it amazing when looking at a supplement that when the 1 runs express downtown, the uptown 1 local leaves 96th 2 or 3 minutes before than downtown 1 express is due to arrive, leaving passengers to wait 17 minutes (at least) for the next train. Having adjusted the schedule for that rain running express I couldn't see why the uptown couln't have been held 5 minutes later at Chambers St.
Last summer, I was on a midday N train that ran express from 59th to Kings Highway due to a GO. Almost everyone on the train was bound for bypassed stations. At Kings Highway our train met a NB one, and we all ran up and over to try to catch it, but it closed its doors just in time to miss every single one of us. The next NB N was a few minutes late, so, in addition to the extra 12-minute (or so) wait imposed on a few hundred passengers, the next train was overcrowded with two SB trainloads, dragging it further behind schedule and inconveniencing everyone up the rest of the line.
There's an obvious solution. The express run saves, what, 2 minutes or so? Rather than hold SB trains an extra 2 minutes at Kings Highway to get back on schedule, push arrival and departure times at Kings Highway and 86th Street 2 minutes earlier, and hold trains at Kings Highway NB instead.
I don't blame the crew for not wanting to wait for the entire trainload to cross over. The way the system is set up, it's in their interest to get out of there quickly.
(I also think that, on lines with scheduled express service, when all trains run express in one direction, all trains should run local in the other direction, even if that forces a supplement schedule onto expresses that aren't otherwise affected. It seems like this is usually done on the Brighton line, but nowhere else. It was actually done last weekend on the West Side IRT, but thanks to one crew who misread the GO and an automated anouncement system that I've been trained for two years to ignore, I had to make an extra round trip between 96th and 72nd at Sunday evening headways.)
Because the TA cares more about keeping trains on time than serving passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Fytton.
P.S. I may be absent from Subtalk for a while soon, as I am off to work in New Zealand [a country without subways (8-( ] for four months, leaving next Thursday.
Wish me luck! And to everyone on SubTalk (as well as BusTalk):
Have a great Independence Day! Go out and do some foaming, err I meant rail and bus fanning!!!;-)
However, Wellington, where I will be staying, has a funicular - which I mey well use regularly, since my workplace is at the top of it - and some auburban rail services to the interestingly named commuter towns of Upper Hutt and Lower Hutt. Auckland - which I shall probably visit - is said to resemble LA in its low-density sprawl. It has a more extensive suburban rail system but this is said to be rather run-down and not very interesting.
Or a stop in Hong Kong for a day or two either going or returning.
Tom
What's in between? Jabba the Hutt?
The trottoir roulant rapide or TRR (fast rolling pavement) is on trial until October, when the metro's safety committee will decide whether it has been a success - and whether to roll it out elsewhere.
The prototype carries passengers the length of Montparnasse station at 9km/h - three times as fast as normal travelators, and about the average speed of a Paris bus.
It is easy to spot old hands who use the trottoir daily and stride boldly along its length.
But new users also appear every day, and a small proportion promptly fall and hurt themselves.
In some cases the Paris metro has had to pay compensation.
Here's a link to the BBC news story - with an animated guide to how it works.
I think it sounds like quite an exciting ride for commuters.
There is also an interesting, two year old, link to a series of short pieces called "Around the world by subway" which mentions some of the world's subway systems.
Link
Andrew.
"Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. etc..."
One such place that comes to mind is London Bridge (connecting London Bridge station with the City across the Thames).
In New York, with its straight streets, there could be many such places. The distance between two avenues is about right.
In some places high-speed travelators could connect busy subway stops where the transfer is inconveniently long.
As for the Gold Line, isn't there any way they could maybe depress the cross-streets so that cross-streets can travel under the line? That way railroad crossings bells wouldn't be needed.
With the kind of residental densities in South Pasadena, as long as the freeway carry some 75,000 cars daily, it will be justifyable. (Cross Bronx carries some 138,000 cars daily and was built through much much much denser neighbourhoods consisting of streetcar suburbs and 5-storey apartment buildings, with some 5,000 dwelling units displaced). I suspect the actual number of cars carried by the proposed highway would be a lot higher than 75,000.
Why be rational? Much easier just to hold opinions.
AEM7
if
it
makes
sense!!!
I
AGREE!
Yeah, they only complain about noises keeping them awake at night. They don't complain about the important stuff such as the census, R-142's, railfan windows, or getting in trouble for wearing an MTA vest.
Stories in South Jersey (formerly Camden) Courier-Post and Philadelphia Inquirer.
(OT) BTW, years ago, not too long after the Courier-Post moved its operations from Camden to Pennsauken, it ran an editorial complaining about Camden Catholic High School abandoning Camden by moving to Pennsauken (across the street from the C-P) after the Camden school burned down.
Upper Box 623C, Section 11
Praise Fred! He's on the RIGHT side of the fence.
The only team I really dislike is the Atlanta Braves and their low class tomahawk chop!
And their low class ex-pitchers who insult diversity, New York City, and the 7 train.
But only you YAWNKEE fans best know where to STICK that hand, Pig.
Oh, yah... the YAWNKEES do!
Back to the trainz, Billy G....
Its not a rumor its a fact, he really dislikes the Yanks ;-D.
In all fairness, Fred is a good sportsman and he didn't give me a hard time at all. It was a true pleasure to be able to spend some time with "Sea Beach Fred".
Don't miss out on what could be the last chance to get in on the ground floor into two positions that could be phased out real soon.
Err, I took the last O/C C/R test in 1999. Unless my mathematical skills fail me that's only 4 years.
Conductors will be around for quite some time.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
I think I'll take the test again anyway just for drill. Maybe I can beat my previous score. This time I'd be in better financial shape to take a pay cut.
wayne
Check this out:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffhph32.htm
The book, BTW, is packed with classic BMT photos. If you're a BMT fan or deeply interested in NYC Subway history, you've been missing something.
As for the Gold Line, isn't there any way they could maybe depress the cross-streets so that cross-streets can travel under the line? That way railroad crossings bells wouldn't be needed.
With the kind of residental densities in South Pasadena, as long as the freeway carry some 75,000 cars daily, it will be justifyable. (Cross Bronx carries some 138,000 cars daily and was built through much much much denser neighbourhoods consisting of streetcar suburbs and 5-storey apartment buildings, with some 5,000 dwelling units displaced). I suspect the actual number of cars carried by the proposed highway would be a lot higher than 75,000.
Why be rational? Much easier just to hold opinions.
AEM7
if
it
makes
sense!!!
I
AGREE!
Its a great book. Definitely worth buying.
John
See Post 523175 et sec.
Tom
John
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/hot_dog_heresy
I should have read the article first. So, Jtrainloco, you went there in person, or saw it on TV?
SubTalker "ERIC B" ???!?!!?!?!?!?
I once met a TA engineer whose name is Edwin Booker...any relation?
Phil Hom
Chuck Greene
If any of you can figure out how to capture the video, please post!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Anyone know if any cars are being dumped the last week of August?
--Mark
Now we just need to figure out when the reefing will take place, sorry I can't answer that, anyone know?
Oh, and I'm still up for a Sub-surfaceTalk fan trip, just give me like a month's notice to get certified and such, I'd gladly go visit either the redbirds or PATH K-cars on the Artificial reefs down there. It doesn't seem too hard to do a dive trip with one of the operators in Sea Girt or Cape May, even if only a few subtalkers go, the rest of the trip could be filled up with civilian divers who just want to see some stuff lying on the bottom.
--Mark
Unfortunately, you can't download the video just by right clicking and saving it, but at least now you can get to it without digging through CBS's website.
Bill "Newkirk"
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!!
to you, too.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Red: Shady Grove to Glenmont or Silver Spring, Silver Spring trains began running at 11 AM
Orange: Vienna to Addison Road or New Carrollton
Blue: Rosslyn (upper level) to Huntington
Yellow: Mount Vernon Square to Franconia-Springfield
Green: Branch Avenue to Greenbelt or Fort Totten, Fort Totten trains began running at 4 PM
Car assignments were rather interesting.
Red: Usual mix of Rohrs and Bredas, no CAFS
Orange: Bredas and Rohrs, no CAFS
Blue: All Bredas, mostly 4000s
Yellow: All Rohrs until about 4 PM, then I saw Bredas and CAFs
Green: Mix of Bredas, CAFs, and amazingly, a few Rohrs
All trains had correct signage though some Orange Line trains to Addison Road had the metal plates on that end of the train showing Blue.
I got on the Metro at about 10:45 AM and took the Red Line (Breda 3139) to Gallery Place. On this run, our operator announced transfers to the Blue and Orange lines at Metro Center (see above and you will know why this is a problem). At Gallery, I saw a train of CAF cars going up to Greenbelt. Took Rohr 1200 on the Yellow Line to Pentagon where I was susposed to meet Tristan (BusStalker). I was late but after waiting almost 30 minutes, I left. I did go through the new bus station there for the first time. Despite the no photography signs, people were taking pictures of the Pentagon and even going up to touch the building. The police that were present did nothing.
Back on the Metro, I took Breda 4038 to Huntington on the "Blue" line. I then went back on the third car of that train, 4042, and went to Eisenhower where I got a picture of a Blue line and the Masonic Temple. Then took 3006, the last car of the next train to King where I missed a Yellow line train. The next train indicator (the old one) at King would light up depending on where the train was actually going. So it showed Yellow to Huntington when a Blue came in and Blue to Springfield when a Yellow came in. I took Rohrs 1216 to Van Dorn where I tried getting a picture of the trains from the corner of Eisenhower and Metro Road. I have yet to download the pictures yet so I don't know if it was worth it but I don't think it was. Got back on the Metro and took Rohrs 1265 back to Pentagon City. I should note that on the Blue Line leaving Huntington, an operator said "Welcome aboard the Yellow Line" before correcting himself and a Yellow Line operator did a similar mistake leaving Van Dorn. While on that train, I made an observation to be announced in a later post. At Pentagon City, I got pictures of trains going the other way until Breda 3111 came in on the Blue Line. I took that to Rosslyn, where a Breda train with door trouble was on the lower level. GOt a bus transfer and ran downstairs, through the malfunctioning door which was ultimately cut, but open at that time. I took that train, Breda 3015, out to East Falls Church.
At East Falls Church, I waited for GEORGE. He came late and once he did, he had very little A/C and his Clever Device did not work. Also, the ride was very bumpy. The bus was 3954. I got off at West Falls Church and took the third car of an Orange Line, Rohr 1100, the car without the AC label, to East Falls Church, where I have a video of it leaving (and you can hear the AC motors). I then took the next train that would ultimately go to Addison, Breda 3081, to Rosslyn. I wanted photos of the Addison sign for Orange, so that is why I waited. We had to wait 3-5 minutes to get into Rosslyn since a Blue Line was there. Two more Oranges came before the next Blue.
Blue Line trains had a very quick turnaround at Rosslyn for obvious reasons. They went manually on the northbound trip from Arlington Cemetary. When leaving Rosslyn, they went very slowly, less than 15 MPH, to just past the junction with the Orange Line, then normal speed to the switch at Arlington Cemetary, and then crossed over. Of course, only one Blue Line was between Arlington Cemetary and Rosslyn at any given time. I got off Breda 4038 at Arlington Cemetary, then crossed under and photographed 3006 as it finished its wrong-rail move and crossed over. Got on Breda 4000 and took that to Rosslyn where I waited for the next Orange, 4059. I took 4059 to L'Enfant Plaza. We passed the Smithsonian Station, closed because the exits are within the secure area on the Mall, where all the lights are on. We had a typical Orange Line operator who only mumbled. I think he announced at Federal Triangle we wouldn't stop at Smithsonian, but I am not sure.
At L'Enfant, they now have LED things to indicate if the escalator is to be used or not, as well as raised emergency stops. If the escalator is to be used, an green arrow is shown, and otherwise, a do not enter sign is displayed in red and white. I saw a Rohr going to Branch Avenue on the other side but then a train of CAF cars pulled in. I got on the last one, 5096, the one where I had my Addison Road incident after the WMATA bus rodeo, and this time, the interior LEDs worked! They now use all capital letters when displaying the line color (GREEN). They then only display the next station name (ARCHIVES) once the train starts to move and as you arrive at the station, it goes all blank except for three arrows to indicate which doors will open (<<<). I can't say I am very impressed with these signs. Took that to Gallery Place, then crossed over and got Breda 2015. The operator announced that no one should board 2014, which was locked down when I got off at Archives and empty. Then, at Archives, trains on both lines just kept coming and coming and coming to the point that you could see headlights the moment a train pulled out. This is when I started to see Bredas and CAFs on Yellow and the Rohrs on Green.
After 10 minutes and probably more than 10 trains in both directions combined, I went upstairs to get pictures of the buses with the flags. A number of buses did not have flags and some were on detour. Combined with what I did at Friendship Heights before getting on the subway, I got pictures of Orion Vs, Flxible Metro-Ds, Neoplan artics, and NABI artics with flags on the sides. I eventually got back on the Metro at Metro Center and rode 3164 back home.
I plan on getting maps for myself later this evening when I won't get yelled at for taking them. This year, they do not have a year on them so they could be resued if souvineer hunters like me don't take them. I have the July 4 maps from every year they have done special service plans, beginning in 1999.
Happy 4th of July to everyone, I hope that if I am in town next year on the 4th, some of the other DC or SubTalkers from elsewhere join me!
Since I spend some time on the south end of the L'Enfant Plaza Green/Yellow line platform waiting for my train home from work every day, I've spent a bit of time studying the working of the old next train indicator there. My guess is these are based off of the aspect of the signal coupled with the train approaching platform edge lights. By watching their operation, this seems likely. Since I'm actually on the northbound side, I've spent some time staring across the tracks visually tracing the conduit from the sign, and that makes it seem more likely.
At L'Enfant, they now have LED things to indicate if the escalator is to be used or not, as well as raised emergency stops. If the escalator is to be used, an green arrow is shown, and otherwise, a do not enter sign is displayed in red and white.
I've seen these on other recently-rebuilt escalators in other stations too, although where escapes me just now.
They now use all capital letters when displaying the line color GREEN). They then only display the next station name (ARCHIVES) once the train starts to move and as you arrive at the station, it goes all blank except for three arrows to indicate which doors will open (<<<). I can't say I am very impressed with these signs.
They've been working on and off on some trains on the green line for a few months now (kept meaning to post here, never got around to it). I'm not terribly impressed either, the timing of the various messages is just slightly off. For instance, the station name should continue to be displayed when the door side indication comes up.
Also, just another unrelated tidbit folks might find interesting, the installation of the canopy over the street escalators at the Maryland Ave. entrance at L'Enfant Plaza is coming along. They've had the escalator area fenced off around the sides and back and a temporary construction canopy over the escalators for awhile now, but just yesterday I saw the first metal support beam for the actual canopy had been installed.
I am not so sure you are right about the old destination indicator, I think it might work off the destination code input by the operator or some other part of the wayside signal system becuase I think I have seen the one at Rosslyn start flashing before a line-up was given. Also, at Stadium-Armory during rush hour, there could be one or even two trains between the station and D&G Junction.
Oren,
The signal at the junction interlocking gets its routing information from the destination system onboard the train by way of the train to way side communication system. When the train enters the approach track circuit the interlocking machine checks the route table against the destination code received from the train to way side communication system and sets the switch and signal to desired route. I am not quite sure if the line color sign is triggered by the interlocking machine or by the train entering a track circuit before or after the approach track circuit used to set the switch and signal.
John
Nope, I haven't met anyone from SubTalk in person, I am a pretty infrequent lurker, and an even more infrequent poster.
YES!!!
Today, while riding on the Yellow Line between Van Dorn Street and King Street (Yellow to F/S today, remember?), as we passed the yard, I saw on one of the trains on a siding near the yard, it had AC markings under the car numbers. And these were Breda cars!!! I believe the number was 2042, but I am not sure. I do know the first two numbers were 2 and 0 and the last number was a 2 on one of the cars. I also read that the first 6 cars are back from Alstom but they are having trouble with them, so they are not in service.
But before that, check out the ~350 new photos I've uploaded to my website today. Some you've seen before, but most you haven't. They are located here: Temporary Albums, sorted by Date and will remain there until I finish uploading the other 1000 or so photos I have backed up. Well, then I have to caption them all, and THEN I'll move them to the proper "by car class" or "by location" albums. Enjoy.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Also, some of you may think I was standing in an unauthorized area. Well, if I was, I think I would have gotten in trouble, as there were plenty of MTA personnel in the area. That said, I was NOT in an unauthorized area, I assure you. Check it out sometime...in person. And you will see what I mean.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I wasn't being critical, just that 1,350 pictures (and I'm assuming they were taken recently) is a lot of pictures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Free market solution to the "union."
Yeah, they only complain about noises keeping them awake at night. They don't complain about the important stuff such as the census, R-142's, railfan windows, or getting in trouble for wearing an MTA vest.
If your traveling late at night when the HOB-JSQ is running then simply take that train to Grove Street and transfer to an EXPL train accross the platform.
Larry, RedbirdR33
What they should have on the map is that the HOB-EXPL train and the EXPL-NWK train are actually the HOB-NWK via EXPL. There's no difference in this method of running than the late nite 33-JSQ via HOB running.
Only for five months though…it’ll be the first time in history of PATH that the Newark train did not serve Manhattan. That will be a long five months.
If you do not mind using a bus for part of the journey, you can check out the stations on the SJLRTS under construction, maybe you can catch a car undergoing testing.
I think the original poster meant "safe" in the sense of "low crime."
As long as you don't mingle with the "natives"!
15th and Market, and 30th and Market, are also good with the el and subway surface right next to each other.
Get a daypass so you won't have to keep paying single fares or buy transfers!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Mark
Chuck Greene
I used to live in Northeast Philly and I rode the 59 every day to get to the Market-Frankford Line. Those creaky old beasts really grew on you after awhile.
Mark
The Ben Franklin Bridge pedestrian walkways are good places to photograph PATCO trains. There's a place where the PATCO tracks cross above the MFL tracks. If you're patient and lucky enough to catch both of them at the same time, you'd have one great shot.
Following Woodland Ave just a bit from the 40th street portal you reach a place when the street enters a six-block-long valley, and looking down Woodland you can often see five trolleys on the 11 and 13 lines.
Also good to ride are the 101 and 102 trolley lines from 69th street.
Mark
PATCO also has a good railfan window.
And I second the motion for the 46th Street portal for a lot of subway-surface action.
The 40th street trolley portal is definitely not to be missed, but just be aware that the route 34 is temporarily bustituted for overhead wire work west of 40th.
Mark
Mark
All of the R5 Malvern/Thorndale
R3 between Swarthmore and Elwyn, particularly the trestles over Crum Creek and Ridley Creek (very long and high)
30th Street Station. You can get a shot of both Amtrak's Race Street Motorcoach Yard and SEPTA's Powelton Avenue Yard, as well as maybe scope a few Metro-North, VRE, MARC, or NJT cars in the Amtrak Yard (NJT aren't as exclusive, as the NJT Atlantic City Line operates off Track 10 at 30th Street, but MARC and VRE never come this far north, nor Metro-North this far south), and of course the rare shot of old-school Amtrak cars next to the new scheme, next to an Acela or two.
Market East. It's just pretty, and you can have lunch in the Gallery Mall if it suits you.
R5 Lansdale Station isn't too bad looking.
There's some nice views of the Schyulkill River along the R6 Norristown line, particularly between Manayunk and Miquon.
R8 Chestnut Hill West has some picturesque stations (Carpenter, C. Hill West, St Martins), and the neighborhood is a photo opportunity itself.
Avoid the following: R6 Cynwyd, either branch of the R2 or R7, and the R8 Fox Chase.
Some points (Philmont, West Trenton) along the R3 West Trenton aren't so bad.
Of course, the R1 is an excellent photo opportunity, as it has the newest construction of the Regional Rail Lines. Eastwick is nice for an all-wood station, and the Airport terminal stations are nicely done. You can also compare old and new construction at Airport Junction (not a station, it's the point at which the R1 Airport breaks away from the Amtrak/R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark tracks)
For a snack, the Green Line Cafe at 43rd and Baltimore on the 34 trolley route.
For a quick lunch, Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market, one block west of the 2nd Street MFL station.
For a bigger meal, Cafe Vientiane (Laotian food) at 48th and Baltimore, also on the 34.
As for regional lines, I agree the R1 has great views, especially of the John Heinz wildlife refuge. If you want to easily hit two lines, take the R7 to Chestnut Hill East, take a short walk through the pretty Mt. Airy neighborhood to the R8 Chestnut Hill West terminal and take that train back downtown.
Mark
Sean
Temple University
Mark
If you want to add one more layer to it, don't take the R3 all the way into Center City, but get off at the 49th street station, and catch the 13 trolley at 49th and Chester, and ride it downtown.
Mark
Mark
What what what? Screw the Gallery. If you're at Market East, eat at Reading Terminal Market!
Is Dock Street Station brewpub still there?
Mark
Also, SEPTA regional rail trains all have a Railfan View with both R5's, the R8 CHW, R2 wilmington, R3 West Trenton and R7 Trenton provide some great video action. However somee E/R's can be downright malevolent re: looking into the cab.
Thanks,
Flushing7
PATCH goes over a missing eye.
Mark
Example of PATCO railfan window: this photo was taken from the front passenger seat of a PATCO train.
It is still sporting its NYCTA numbers. I wonder what number series it would be renumbered into.
AEM7
Which incident with the R160's?
AEM7
You can find the threads N_Slant-40 posted by using the archives.
Ditto to that. It wasn't "authentic" enough anyway.
Ozzy Zamora AKA The Kiman
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
And thanks Brian, for posting my photo, I now have my Drexel FTP space working.
I probably took upwards of 60 some photos tonight, most of them didn't come out, maybe a dozen or so are of actually good quality, but the rest are bad, either because of unsteady hands, or just plain stupidity:
Do note: Don't take pictures of moving busses (or for that matter, anything else moving) at night with a relatively low megapixel camera, it won't work. :(
But then again, some worked better than I expected:
But again, it's a bright photo, with the lights reflecting off the marble(?) facade of 30th St Station, so the F-stop did't need to be as high and I didn't have to stand as still.
I also like this one, the largely black, empty Penn dorm with the last bits of skyglow behind it. Also the spot lights that those dorms have, IMHO, look really cool in the humidity.
Leaving the island was slightly hard. The tramway had an extremely long, orderly line. The subway had a relatively small disorganized crowd trying to get through the doors and the 4 turnstiles. Many tourists had minor trouble with the turnstiles, slowing down movement. At one point, police blocked the doors (don't know why).
Because the trickle into the station was slow, the platforms (which aren't that spacious given it's a new station) could handle the crowds, though they were full. The trains could handle the crowds easily. One family with a kid on a giant tricyle stroller didn't make it onto a crowded Queens-bound train, but otherwise everybody got on without making the trains look anywhere near as bad as rush hour.
No doubt the $18 charge was for access to the fireworks viewing area on the south end of Roosevelt Island. Access to the island itself costs just a tram or subway fare (I don't know if pedestrians can use the bridge from Queens).
It's a public park, but it isn't owned by the city, it's owned by the RIOC.
Yes they can. I have.
I thought I saw a video on one of the satellitel TV channels on the Cape Cod Central, and the cars in the video were DEFINITELY ex-LIRR P72's.
John
avid
(I can't remember the "Simpsons" reference to this subject!)
'But, then we're overrun with gorillas!'
'No problem. When it's winter time, the gorillas freeze to death.'
I think that's how it goes, well some of it. :)
Some days you are the statue
and some days you are the pigeon.
: )
I also remember seeing a news report which said that there's a pair in one of the casinos down in AC, as well as a few in Philadelphia.
Eventually the chicken tired itself out and sat quietly, but still the owl never moved. Then evening came, and the chicken too, had to roost, but the only roost there was, was to sit next to the owl. This the chicken did, and the owl never moved.
In the morning, there was no chicken in the cage. The Owl was still roosting about where it was the day before.
Elias
There is a plethora of pigeons all over there as indicated by the feathers and droppings. It's just disgusting. I hope the MTA has a trick or two up their sleeve to take care of this problem.
Mark
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Compare:
#3 West End Jeff
We really should have another photo contest. There have been some great photos going around here lately.
dedicated facilities are not fiscally efficient. track sharing is economically efficient. facilities should not be dedicated unless it cannot physically be connected
oh, i don't dispute the facts, although you spin this like you're a CSX shareholder... iirc, the worst ATK wreck in terms of pax deaths was attributed to a CSX bridge (barge strike by non-CSX barge)? aem7
I do not know if they own it or not, but Metrolink seems to have exclusive use of the track in the median of the San Bernardino Freeway and its ROW all the way to San Bernardino. It should be noted that it is a single track from L.A. to El Monte, which makes freight impractical and limits the frequency of reverse moves during peak commuting hours.
Metrolink remains a commuter railroad with most of their trains running inbound to L.A. in the morning and outbound in the afternoon, five days a week, with minimal schedules on Saturday, and none on Sunday and holidays. I have trouble understanding how they can utilize their operating staff efficiently. It looks like they must have a lot of engineers and conductors (and equipment) sitting around idle in L.A. between the morning and afternoon commuting periods. It still has a long way to go before it is in a league with the eastern commuter railroads.
Tom
Metro-North and the LIRR have the same problem too. Their mid-day schedules, while more extensive than Metrolink's, are considerably lighter than those during rush hour, with the result that many staff members and trainsets sit idle for the mid-day period. It's this "peaking" phenomenon that is a large reason why commuter lines cannot make money at the fare box.
Split shifts are common in transportation for some employees, but usually not for the majority of the operating employees. And with Metrolink, the starting point of the trains is 40-60 miles from downtown L.A. Assuming the people drove to their starting point, unless there is a second car kept downtown, there is no practical way to return home between split shifts. Any public transportation would be at least a three hour round trip.
Tom
When the Metrolink shops were built at Taylor Yard in 1991-1992, they actually did build a bunkhouse for crews on splits to rest/sleep in -- but that didn't work out, as whoever designed the place didn't take in account that there would be heavy machinery working on the trains, creating a lot of noise/vibaration. So, the answer was to contract with a hotel in the vicinity of Union Station (close, but not that close -- I know which one it is, but will not divulge it).
As for the equipmetn "sitting around" in LA -- that's basically the only time they have to perform inspections, maintenance, etc. as the trains usually layover at outlying locations at night and weekends. Bombardier has the maintenance contract at the shops, (and recently was awarded another five eyar contract) and I would guess that they are doing a very good job, as I rarely hear of any breakdowns on Metrolink's system.
Mentioning the line down the middle of the I-10 from LA to El Monte -- no, it would not, at this time, be practical to use if for freight service. That is part of Metrolink's San Bernardino line, and it sees, basically, hourly service during the day. It also sees frequent Metrolink service on the weekends, being the only line to run seven days a week. Also, when Metrolink began operations a major flyover was built east of El Monte so the Metrolink trains and then-SP, now-UP freights wouldn't have to mingle, as Metrolink was running in from north of the freight line at Baldwin Park, and heading off southerly just west of the El Monte Station. When the flyover was built, they basically isolated the Metrolink and the SP (UP) lines from each other, though they run parallel. So, nowadays it might be considered impractical even if crossovers were installed.
I was somewhat disappointed when I rode the San Bernardino line from Claremont to LAUS r/t last October. It was a nice ride, for sure, and I really liked the bilevel coaches. What disappointed me was that traffic on I-10 was moving well both times my train passed through that stretch in the median. It would've been much more enjoyable had vehicle traffic been totally clogged as we went zipping along :)
oh i love the detail of the rust and peeling paint on the walls by the way
Basically it comes down to laziness of the rr to support such a feature. MNRR only does with the ACMUs since there's so few trains that have them, and they only run in rush hour in one direction, it takes almost no effort to have the seats all face forward. But SEPTAs older silverliners can be found all day, and would have to be reversed several times, so they probably decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
When I was a kid, I'd flip them all over as I was leaving the train at Penn Station.
But I must tell you, the M1 seats were (when new) more comfortable than the walkovers.
I think there is a safety issue as well, the fixed seats being the safer.
Still, I would rather have a train with the walkovers.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Crescent Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn
Queensboro Plaza
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave.
Pacific Street
IRT:
Atlantic Ave
Grand Central
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street
Willets Point
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
149th St/Grand Concourse
I'm sure I've missed a few on both lists.
Here are some stations I know exist on the signs which aren't terminals:
BMT/IND:
Crescent Street Broadway-Brooklyn Locals (some)
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn Culver Shuttle before 1959, West End Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza Brighton Local, Fourth Avenue Local before 1949
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue (the one in ENY) Broadway-Brooklyn Local (some)
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette F Train
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave. F Train before 1954, D Train short line until Chrystie
Pacific Street currently, weekend night N; night R
IRT:
Atlantic Ave 4 and 5 services midday
Grand Central TS-GC Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street Short-lined 7
Willets Point 7 during special events at Shea, Flushing Meadow
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway Broadway Locals before c.1960, alternate Broadway Locals before 9 was instituted
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street Dyre Avenue Shuttles, some 2 or 5
Gun Hill Road Third Avenue el
149th St/Grand Concourse
The last Redbird :)
--Mark
IRT (cont'd)
61 St/Woodside
Hunters Point Av
Burnside Av
14 St
Chambers St
IRT:
Atlantic Ave 4 and 5 in the past
Grand Central 42 St Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza 7 during construction
111th Street Morning rush 7
Willets Point PM rush 7
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway 1 in the past
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street 5 late nite shuttle
Gun Hill Road 8 train
149th St/Grand Concourse 5 during construction
Eastern Parkway
Queens Plaza
111th St (BMT)
Err, I don't think there are anymore Rush hour "N" runs that short turn, since the W supplements weekday Astoria service. And before the bridge swap, I recall seeing trains signed up for service to Whitehall St, not Canal.
IRT:
Atlantic Ave - Use to be the Terminal For the 4 train during non rush hour/night services in the 70's and 80's and used during G.Os
Grand Central - Current Terminal of the Times Square Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza - Can terminate there due to switches and used for G.O's
111th Street- Trains can go there due to Yard Lead tracks and is often used as the last stop on trains who wish to proceed to the yard after 111 Street.
Willets Point - Used by the 7 for Baseball Specials
96th Street/Broadway - Used for G.O's as the Southern Terminal for 1 trains or the northern Terminal for 3 trains (very odd)
137th Street/Broadway - Was once the terminal for some 3 trains and some 1 trains in the 70's and 80's.
Dyckman Street- Due to swtiches North of the Station, the train can be used as a terminal (and has) for G.O's
215th Street - Same reason as Dyckman Street
138th St/3rd Ave- Same as Above
E 180th Street- Due to yard certain trains terminate there and lay up in the yard, and is used by the Dyre Avenue Shuttle as its Southern Terminus.
Gun Hill Road - Original Terminal of hte 3rd Avenue El, and provisional Terminal for G.O's.
149th St/Grand Concourse - Same as Dyckman Street.
BMT/IND:
Crescent Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn
Queensboro Plaza
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave.
Pacific Street
IRT:
Atlantic Ave
Grand Central
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street
Willets Point
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
149th St/Grand Concourse
Heres all the former terminals which still appear on rollsigns.
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
111th Street
Grand Central
Pacific Street
Essex Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
Grand Central is used daily except nights: the 42nd st shuttle.
Pacific is presently used by the N/R late night trains.
It's always a good idea to KEEP these destinations on rollsigns.
Speaking of Weird destinations; I've seen Kew Gardens on a rollsign.
I've seen Grand St station rolls along with North and South Terminal rolls [when a station is not there on a roll].
Also, I recall seeing E trains sporting Canal St on the north roll and Jamaica Center on the south (back during post 9/11 service plan)
Also, I recall seeing E trains sporting Canal St on the north roll and Jamaica Center on the south (back during post 9/11 service plan)
The Canal rolls were also used when the C was out of service back in 2000 for switch replacement [E's terminated there in the late nights].
Nah, the E terminated at Chambers.
B extra rush hour service (all trains went to/from BPB so Concourse local riders didn't have to wait that long.). And they used some R38s on the B line too.
C Not running, entire route (see B and E services)
E extended to Euclid 6AM-11 PM (around the same times the C was running). Late nights, E terminates at Canal St and used center track between Canal and Chambers A/C tracks for layup purposes.
What you're saying is impossible. There's no way that that center track could have been used for layup purposes. Then the "E" train has no where to turn.
I remember the E terminating at Chambers Late nights. That's where it went. Heck, I rode the line everyday of that GO.
Switches over to express track after leaving Canal, then there is a layup track, similar to center track between 21st st and Court Square/IND X-Town line. The train can layup there and come back in on A/C northbound express track at Canal St. There, the train can switch to local track after leaving Canal.
Laying up a train involves leaving it there (or so I think). You're talking about turning the train.
I'm pretty sure that the train went to Chambers and then went back on said track.
The E trains relayed using the center track I mentioned.
Maybe you guys are right. But I coulda swore that it turned at Chambers and not canal.
Maybe you guys are thinking of the WTC re-route. Chambers was closed then, so E trains had to terminate at Canal.
This had nothing to do with the WTC reroute. The General Order I recall DID specify the late night E trains terminate at Canal. If the E train terminated at Chambers St (North Platform), which side would the E come in? Would the very few passengers get confused as to which way the E traveled, if it came in S/B track at Chambers and relayed N/B. There really was no sense to do that. Plus the schedules dictate (IIRC) that despite 20 minute headways, the E train was 2-3 minutes ahead of the A train so it does cause a problem if the E terminated at Chambers. With Canal St as the terminus, E trains can do a quick relay after fumigating the entire train then come back in at N/B Canal St. The S/B A train just sits and waits for a minute or so (all night 8th Ave service is local) for the E train to leave.
Nope. They were P/A (north roll) and Canal Street (south roll).
Jamaica Center
Parsons/Archer
I should've been more specific.
Some (7) trains terminate at Willets Point or 111 during the rush.
Why else did the trains say "Special" in the South Terminal when (7) trains terminated at QBP during the last GO that caused trains to do that?
Thanks to JohnVillanueva.com.
Dyckman, Pacific, E180, and Grand Central are all current terminals at various times of the day or days of the week.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
VC Madman
Both of them had the 2 yellow cars, and each had an R62 single hitched up behind it. Don't know why though.
Since the B division yards don't have any single unit passenger cars (maybe they do this so the C/A's can have A/c in the summer?), I'm guessing they just hooked up an R32 set.
The second train was definitely the Vaccum train. Boy, does that thing suck!
I've heard from crews that it sucks like a fothermucker.
More non-regular riders. That is, even more people than usual who don't realize how bad it is to discard trash on the tracks.
No cars, pedestrians or cyclists for 11 years. The manhattan bridge has yet to even be completely closed to one mode of transportation. We DON'T have it so bad.
And you say NYC is bad at re-building/building stuff.
I think that some Bi-State Transit (light rail cars) use it now.
When I walked over, traffic was very light. Maybe a dozen cars passed by. East St. Louis, Ill is a rough place. I was a bit anxious walking down the main street there.
Note: The toll booth was on the Illinois side. Do you know why?
Bridge and road tolls are either illegal or unconstituitional in Missouri. Can a New Yorker believe that such a thing exists?
Not true.
It's spelled "Eads" Bridge, the oldest RR bridge west of the Mississippi River. It was completed in 1874.
Yes, and after this platform burned down, the remains of the original northbound track was exposed for the first time.
"Furthermore, what was the photographer doing over there at the time of taking the picture?"
Taking advantage of a nice shot, since the sun was on the correct side.
" And of course the obvious, what in the heck is a QT doing at Franklin Avenue?"
Perhaps these cars came of the (QT) and the signs weren't changed. Looks like a four car train, much less than they usually run on the (QT).
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't know the exact date. Sometime in the 80's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't know the exact year. Sometime in the 80's.
Bill "Newkirk"
The picture is definitely an anomoly. There was no Franklin Local service to Coney Island contemporaneous with the R27s.
FRANKLIN (#7, later SS)
06/06/59 Extended Saturday daytime from Prospect Park to Coney Island year-round
01/01/61 Cut back Sunday service to shuttle Franklin Av to Prospect Park, cut back Saturday service from Coney Island to Brighton Beach
02/23/63 Cut back Saturday service to shuttle Franklin Av to Prospect Park
R27's were delivered in 1960 and 1961. It doesn't look like a brand new car. However, exterior finishes deteriorated quite quickly in the pre-carwash days.
HOWEVER ... my memory is fuzzy on this, but I vaguely recall that there was a GO in the early '60s which had WEEKDAY Brighton Locals going to Franklin Avenue either during a service disruption or construction for a short time. This MAY be what we're looking at, but don't quote me.
That doesn't explain the "Coney Island" on the sign, unless it was just a complete mis-signing.
I don't think it was the GO I described in another post because later mainline through-routings on Franklin were almost always six cars.
Hi Chris:
You say that the picture was taken in 1965. Notice the long shadows cast by the light poles on the platforms. This might indicate late summer or autumn. I mention this for the following reason; on Sunday, August 22, 1965 there was a watermain break at Willoughby Street in Brooklyn which caused what I always have referred to as "The Great BMT Flood." Dekalb Avenue was flooded thereby cutting off all service between Manhattan and the Southern Section of the BMT.
On that Sunday the "QB" ran in two sections;
Ditmars Boulevard-Canal Street
Franklin Avenue-Coney Island.
By happy chance I was visting a friend in Brooklyn that day and rode both services and can verify the use of the QB signs.
The next day was Monday and Brighton trains were still running between Franklin Avenue and Coney Island but they were labeled "QT." Naturally I was out on Monday as well, this as being a somewhat younger railfan in the middle of summer this was a great opportunity to see many unusual services. (Great for railfans, lousy for thousands of regular commuters).
By the PM rush the line from Prospect Park to Dekalb Avenue was re-opened via bridge and there were three services running. The Brighton Express between 57 Street and Brighton Beach labelled Q, the Brighton Local via Bridge between Astoria and Coney Island labelled "QB" and a Broadway-Bridge-Brighton-Sea Beach service between 57 Street and 36 Street. I recall seeing both the Q and QB signs so I was riding R-27's at least some of the time. It was a rare chance to see the Q and QB running at the same time.
So it is possible that this picture was taken on Moday, August 22, 1965.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Makes sense. The photographer may have snapped that pic strictly because an unusual service was running. However, I can't imaging 4 car Brighton locals on a weekday during rush hours.
Supplemental schedule for Saturday service shows this happened April 21, 1962.
Elias
I don't know, but I remember when the '27s were new, and the cat's meow. They really were the finest cars I had ever set my eyes on.
AND I AINT THAT OLD!
At Sutphin the signal would not have cleared past R/W unless the tower had been swung the traffic, but since, aside from that, everything would be okay for the signal to clear on time, the lunar white will come on.
The school bus was just that: a school bus, with the windows completely cut out and holes cut into the top so that there is easy egress and divers don’t get trapped. Not tremendously interesting.
The helicopter is another story. It’s suspended in mid-water on a couple of pontoons, one above the tail and one above the main rotor. You can easily swim inside and around it, though it’s relatively cold underneath: 55°F today at the wheels (50'). It’s also fascinating to look at the Rube Goldberg mechanism that flies a helicopter, where the axis through which the blades rotate can be changed, as can the blade pitch. The main rotors have been removed, but the rest of the mechanism is still there. The tail rotors are in position (you can push on them and swim them round!)
Visibility has improved significantly over the past couple of years, mainly because zebra mussels were imported and have taken over most of the bottom. They provide very efficient water filtration. Visibility was around 50' at the helicopter today. Other parts of Dutch Springs have visibility that varies depending on whether students kick the bottom and stir up silt.
John
John
However, for people who are making their first open water dives, which was the purpose of this weekend’s activity, Dutch Springs is a much safer and controlled environment than the Atlantic Ocean!
Chuck Greene
I've never seen so many empty parking spaces on the Upper West Side -- on a Saturday night, yet.
mr. ants in pants
On the other hand being at home is great, if there's air conditioning.
I have yet to experience my ideal.
I have yet to experience my ideal.
You'll have a long wait to experience the heavy snow with mid-60's temps....
So I've experienced my ideal day often.
As for any day with snow, those are automatically the worst days of the year.
I take that back. I remember riding up to White Plains on the Harlem line when there was a light snow. It was beautiful. And it wasn't bad because the snow melted soon after it stopped falling.
A lot of stations accumulate snow, not just ones that are "open." All you need are those vents in the wall or ceiling that lead up to grates in the sidewalk. Fine snow will work its way down to the platform very easily. Just look at this photo, which shows the lower level of 96 St/CPW during a blizzard:
And here's a similar photo to David's:
Make that 2002.
I'm kind of disappointed about how it came out. Too bad I won't get another shot at that one this winter.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa3d6f978fd9d6926a2372bec4f2609c3/fc874ac8.jpg.orig.jpg
Sometihng must have happin along the way to make the trip from almost 2 Hours to 5 Hours OUCH!
Added on 07/07/2003
08 4 Av-9 St (F)
02 96 St (1/2/3/9)
01 96 St (B/C)
04 Broadway Junction (JLZ)
01 Rockaway Pkwy
03 East New York Yard
05 Livonia Av
04 New Lots Av
05 R-42
12 R-62A
15 R-143
Total: 60 Photos
Yes, definitly one of the worst transit crimes of the year.
my ideal is in the 20s with the snow. i prefer the cold weather over the hot.
I'd certainly take 20's over what we have now, but 60's are best of all.
On topic: Are NYC Subway cars adversely affected by hailstorms?
Dunno. One of my more vivid rail-related memories, however, is riding at the railfan window of a Metro-North Harlem Line train in 1996 or 1997 as it passed through a hailstorm near Mt. Kisco. It was spectacular!
Heat? Big deal! I did an hour of yard work this morning, including some heavy brush-cutting, then I went to the gym for 45 minutes. Of course, I now think I'm melting like the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz, but that's another story ...
Chuck Greene
--Mark
Chaohwa
It seems that whenever Amtrak needs to test a new electric (a la the MARC HHP-8) they sit around for a bit.
MN Budds
NJT U34CH's
Or more recently: NJT GP40 #4103 and friend
Mark
http://www.subways.net/china/harbin.htm
http://www.hfiab.gov.cn/project/e/ywxm02.htm
it says light rail but according to my chinese friend it is going to look more like a subway because it runs underground. not sure what kind of vehicles would be used.
This webpage appears to say that JR East's subway services have been declared unconstitutional, and therefore will be suspended indefinitely until the Emperor of Japan could give the company a pardon. It's been a long time since I tried to read Japanese and I think I might have misunderstood what it said, but it has the words for "electric train" (denki tetzu) and "unconstitutional" (neshmo teztihu) next to each other in many locations. If any of you read Japanese you should try to come up with a more accurate translation...
Alta Vista
Accompany JR east Japanese construction section suspension and the bus vicarious execution transport which
* In the following area of JR east Japan train section suspension and the bus vicarious execution transport which accompany construction occur.
* Attendant upon this, time modification and driving et cetera of the temporary train are done. The area in the chart below the case of utilization please note.
Seems like they are just doing a bus substitution of some subway lines.
Service advisories:
6/20 Hanawa line service suspended between Araya-Shinmachi and Kazuno-Hanawa
6/29(first train to 8 am), 7/13(first train to 7 am) Elevated structure replacement on Tokaido main line between Shinbashi and Hamamatsucho. All main line service departs/terminates at Shinagawa. Please use local commuter lines for service between Tokyo and Shinagawa.
9/27 16:10 to 9/28 06:00 Distruption of service due to Chuo line grade separation work. Inbound track will be switched to the new elevated temporary track between Mitaka and Kokubunji. All main line Limited Express trains depart/terminate at Hachioji or Tachikawa. Many commuter trains suspended or have short runs. Please use substitutional bus service or other modes (*I think they mean the parallelling Seibu line or Keio line, but not directly mentioning them since they are the competition* Wado). Please refer to the linked PDF file below for details.
BTW, "electric train" is "densha" not "denki tetzu". "Denki tetsudo" means "electric railway". As for "unconstitutional" (neshmo teztihu), I don't know which part you are looking at.:-)
A real trip report will follow soon.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Wow, that thing has outboard disc brakes. looks like a silverliner. gas turbine has never worked particuarly well in transit applications and people went back to diesel electric and straight eletric.
A standard jet engine has at least two turbines in it, the compressor and the compressor power turbine. Just like the stroke of a 4 cycle engine, the air is taken in at the mouth of the jet, compressed in the compressor, then ignited and burned in the combustor, it then expands and flys through the compressor power turbine, which in turn powers the compressor (hence the term) via a shaft running the length of the engine right down the middle. The energy not removed from the the thrust by the need to spin the compressor power turbine (CPT) just shoots out the back, producing thrust. This is the most basic jet engine, the turbojet engine, just a series of turbines creating a jet. In any role other than producing thrust, these two components are called the engine's Core, since you can do all kinds of stuff with the thrust. Since Jet aircraft merely use the thrust for propulsion, they ride on the jet created a the nozzle of the engine, thus the name Jet. Turbojets may have many many compressor and CPT fans in them, a single turbine in the compressor won't do much to compress the air thus 5 or 6, maybe even more then 10 would be needed, they may also need to spin at different speeds, and rather than messing with some gearing, you'd just add another CPT set to turn faster, then one CPT spins one compressor section, the other at spins the other section at a different speed. Turbofans are a direct offshoot of turbojets, they just add another dedicated turbine, which spins a massive fan at the front of the turbine, this accelerates air past the engine, making it much more efficient and quieter.
A Gas Turbine is like a turbofan in that it too uses the core to get thrust, and then sticks another turbine unrelated to the compressor or CPT in the thrust. The point of this turbine, usually called the power turbine is to get as much energy out of the moving air (gas) as possible and convert it into some sort of mechanical energy, usually spinning something. In the GT-2 this would be turning a Generator, which would create power to turn the traction motors, Bombardier's JetTrain (aka Acela with the pantograph broken off), also takes this approach. In something like the Rhor Turbotrains that amtrak operate(s)(d) on the Hudson, the gas turbine directly powers the wheels, with the 3rd rail around NYPenn powering a separate traction motor that doesn't run most of the trip, really proof that the Turbotrains are completely misplaced on the empire corridor.
More likely they'd use Diesel, that's what the Rhors burn, and it's what BBD's JetTrain will burn should it ever be let out of Pueblo. Really so long as the burner cans are compatible with whatever you're trying to spray into there, and the pressure's high enough a gas turbine will burn it. Stationary and Marine turbines burn all kinds of junk, although it's my understanding that some power turbines burn Natural Petrol. I know navy destroyers using gas turbines for power (4 LM2500s, the same core as the CF6 turbofans off the 747) burn straight bunker C, the same stuff that the oil burning carriers and auxiliaries burn, and probably just one rung up the cracking tower from crude.
Hopefully I didn't confuse you any more than you already were, if I did, check www.howstuffworks.com, they in typical HSW.com fashion have several different descriptions of how Jets, Gas Turbines, and other turbine derived engines work, despite the fact that they're all mechanically the same.
*Yes I know it's not the Engish Major's themselves who screwwed it all up, but if it's a problem with English's imprecise manner, then gawd-durn it, I'm gonna blame the people who place the language's name on it. After all, who wrote the dictionaries? Sure wasn't the engineers!
Actually you didn't confuse me at all, in fact you just gave me a very interesting mechanical engineering lesson. Thanks!
GT-1 was a straight turbine -- and when it went back to Budd for modifications (i.e. additiona of third-rail equipment -- traction motors, shoes, etc.) it returned to LIRR as GT-2. When it was GT-1 it had orange ends.
"This station features ornate vent grills in the ceiling and has a closed northern exit which has a old high wheel turnstile at the top (it is barricaded at platform level). Another closed exit has corrugated windscreen in the ceiling where the stairs once were. There is new replacement tile covering up this former entrance - a lighter shade of green with a different, darker green border."
Where were these exits located above ground? Corner of Lafayette and South Elliott? Why were they closed? I'm guessing on account of low ridership.
Nope. Would be useful though. For queensboud serv., you have to crossunder the tracks.
Too bad they're not open -- the crossunder for access to the Queens-bound side has developed a truly rank stench in the last week or so.
Gotta agree on the crossunder stench. I'm guessing since there are no cameras monitoring the passage, people take the opportunity to urinate there.
Is Fulton St (IND Crosstown) the only station where Queeensbound riders have to enter at the Brooklyn bound fare control (the ONLY fare control) and then cross under? I always found it odd that no fare control exists on the Queensbound platform. Was it because there no space to build it, and thus the builders created a crossunder to the Brooklyn-side to exit?
I'm leaving now. I hope I see you out on the mainline! And bring water.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I know chapter 11 has the mad crazy skills. You seen them photos of the Q train and all that? Man, I can't wait to see his pix cuz I know that ish is gonna be hot yo!
Translation:
Indeed.
I'm aware Chapter 11 has good skills. Have you seen his pictures of the Q train and all? I can't wait to see his new pictures because I know they are going to look great.
:-)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The Around Great Britain, Album 1 set has shots of stations and trains around London, and some of the mainline activity where it parallels the Docklands Light Rail.
The Around Great Britain, Album 2 set continues these shots and has photos of Dublin light rail construction.
Both sets also contain a few bus pix for you busfans.
The Around Paris set contains photos from a locomotive and coach exhibit along the Champs-Elysees, which was going on while I was there, as well as shots along the #2 line.
The London Underground set has shots mostly from a beautiful day at South Kensington Station, which was the Tube stop near our hotel.
Finally, the Docklands Light Rail set contains many pix from a great railfan day on London's newest line.
Great pictures!
Visiting in August must have been hell, weather-wise. I loved my trip, and London was great, but I will say the British aren't very skilled at the air conditioning thing.
Mark
A couple of nitpicks - the "construction at St Pancras" picture is actually of the construction work on Kings Cross St Pancras underground station - the construction work on St Pancras main line station itself is further north, at the country end of the platforms. But the whole area is one huge building site anyway. Incidentally the Kings X St Pancras construction is the reason why your Circle Line trains are showing the unusual destination "Baker Street" - most weekends this summer the Circle/Met/Hammersmith & City line is not running between Liverpool Street and Baker Street because of the Kings X construction work, so the Circle Line is only three-quarters of a circle at weekends. Normally Circle Line trains show "Circle Line", since of course they have no terminus!
It's questionable whether Docklands LR is London's newest line - the Jubilee Line Extension opened in late 1999, and I can't quite remember whether the newest part of the DLR (the extension under the river to Greenwich and Lewisham) was before or after that. The Croydon Tramlink opened in summer 2000. The Docklands *will* be the newest again when the London City Airport branch opens - but only for a short time, since the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) tunnel from Stratford to St Pancras is due to open in 2007.
Whic brings me on to this morning's paper, which reports that testing trips over phase one of the CTRL (from the Channel Tunnel portal across Kent to Ebbsfleet on the North Kent coast) are about to start, with 170-200 m.p.h. runs by Eurostar trains to test everything out.
Thanks guys, it was a hell of a trip.
If they did, I'm sure they'd be able to raise enough money to cure Polio (it is the March of Dimes).
I spent most of my time in 491, a little in 484 and none in 100 except to pass through.
: )
Mark
Mark
Mark
Having to shower every three hours....UGH! Nice to be out here in California and do it once a day, maybe twice if I have too many scumbags on the bus. Then I showeer as soon as I get home from the bus yard....
(1) metal fatigue occurs when the metal is subject to contunual stress and destressing cycles. since the redfish would be waaaay under water where the temperature isnt subject to daily shock through sunshine heating effects, i dont see how metal fatigure would occur. do fish contunally load and unload redbirds by sitting on one side of it and then unseating themsevles and sitting on the other side?
(2) while im not an expert on rusting i note that in ocean liners they paint ballast tanks used only to store sea water for a number of reasons. the toxic oxide paint repels limpets and other marine life that can cause havoc if they start growing on the hulls and also there is dissolved oxygen in water and also electrolytic reactions can occur if you have metal in an electrolyte (sea water -- has plenty of na+ and cl- to conduct electricity). therefore the redbird will rust, but probably very very slowly. why the hell do you think the titanic and the firzgerald are still there on the ocean bed and you can still go in them?
geez, high school chemistry comes in handy
aem7
aem7
(crushing only occurs if there are sponge like materials underwater -- steel is pretty solid, so as long as pressure is equal on all sides the hull would not be crushed. if the hull fails, it fails for reasons other than water pressure. the crushing you are thinking of (of, for example, a submarine) is because there are watertight compartments witin the sub and crushing occurs if the water fails to breach the seal before the structure fails)
Physics texts don't talk about shipwrecks.
--Mark
Still, other people have done the calculations and it will. AEM7 was talking as if it never will.
So other shipwrecks might survive forever, but there still is force acting upon it forcing it to collapse. GRAVITY still works underwater.
Gravity is much weaker than the structural forces of steel and will never cause the Titanic or a Redbird to collapse.
Rust will weaken the structural forces so much that gravity can cause a collapse.
Rust requires oxygen. The oxygen bound in the H2O molecule will not do. However, water has air dissolved in it, not bound in on a molecular level. The colder the water, and the shallower, the more dissolved air. Fish breath this dissolved air; they do not get air from the H2O molecule. Underwater steel rusts in the presence of this air, but slowly if the depths are great, since there isn't that much of it down deep.
You see Redbirds, the rusticles see lunch!
Mark
John
Mark
-Robert King
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called 'Gitche Gumee'
Superior it's said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy
Mark
Water on it's own will not rust something, if you took pure water with no flourine, Chlorine or anything in it and submerged carbon steel in it, there'd be almost no problem, only the H3O and OH would attack it, and they're in almost negligable amounts. Rain drops, even neutral, non-acid rain ones cause rust at the edges of the water droplet, because that's where the oxygen, water and iron come together, the middle of the droplet will stay solid while the outside rusts away. And in the sea there's dissolved oxygen, lots of Sodium and Chlorine, and all kinds of other chemicals, all of which will eat the redfish pretty quickly. Still they should be good for 50 some years of fish homes, possibly longer.
Steel rusts underwater very quickly. Salt water is quite corrosive to a lot of unprotected metals. However, iron oxide is not a protective coating on iron or steel the way that aluminum oxide is on aluminum metal say, so the steel will eventually rust all the way through. Typically then the wreck will collapse because of water movement due to a severe storm.
Since ships are constructed from much heavier gauge steel (1/4"+) than the redbirds’ skin, they last much longer. I would give the Redbirds about 25 years before they are a rubble pile on the bottom: which is still useful as a home for aquatic creatures, just not so photogenic and identifiable as former subway cars.
John
Is it fair to say that the reefs will last longer once NYCT starts dumping stainless steel cars?
In time…
What was the first NYC car not to have asbestos?
Mark
John
However, I would agree that having a covering of mussels (other invertebrates don’t really count: anenomes and sea stars don’t have a wide enough reach!) will delay the collapse by some amount of time. I just don’t have any information on the timescales of such things.
John
The term you should have used is corrosion. Yes, the car-bodies will eventually collapse because the structure was weakened due to corrosion. That's due to the chemicals in the ocean that react with the metal to oxidize it. Eventually the strength of the steel cannot withstand the water pressure, so it collapses.
Maybe the sea-life growing on it will protect it from corrosion, but that's not an area I'm familiar with.
But water is heavier than air, especially at depth. Wouldn't that push down on anything in the ocean? That's specifically what I was thinking of.
:-) Andrew
The thing is, pressure acts equally at all surfaces of the object when to object is standing still (something is stationary when the net sum of all the forces equal zero). Which means that if you have 200 MPa of water pressure acting downward on the stationary object, then you have 200 MPa of pressure acting upward trying to push it up. Since the downward and upward are equal, they cancel each other out (-200+200=0), which means the gravity isn't a factor. So to correct myself, gravity isn't negligible, but irrelevant.
That is why we surface dwellers aren't being crushed by the air pressure above us. Remember, air is just a fluid like water is, all the principles are same. We have thousands of Newtons of air on top of us, but since the pressure acts on all surfaces of our bodies, we are being pushed up at an equal rate as being pushed down.
I'm glad somebody brought that up. Even in the ocean there is dissolved oxygen (without it fish would suffocate!) as well lots and lots of salt that will do the same thing to the Redbirds as it does to your car on snowy highways that have been salted. I'm also glad you used the word "corrosion" because even if the steel doesn't speficifically react to form iron(III) oxide (rust) it can just as easily become iron(III) chloride or other compounds.
Mark
Yeah, but no matter what Fred calls you, bei mir, you are still a Mensch! :-)
Tom
I'll tell you how ironic this is. Marty and I were trading some angry barbs when he first crossed trails on Subtalk but soon became good friends. I wonder sometimes why I just don't start out on friendly terms with my friends. This has happened so much to me in my life that I wonder if it just part of my life's script.
isnt that part of the natural getting-to-know-you process. issues dont get talked about unless people get annoyed and when issues get talked about thats whne people discover that they agree, or change their opinion such that they agree. thats why they say a relationship isnt real until you have had your first fight. the funny thing is that rachel and i have not really had a single fight yet we always end up slightly pissed but we never yelled at one another. between guys and guys though tend to yell a little more and i always yelled at my friends before they figure out that we are really agreeing. that's when you really appreciate the friendship becayse you know the other guy really agrees and isn't agrreing just to be agreeable. i hate those social fishes who like to agree just to be agreeable and they are so superficial and slimy as an eel.
aem6
I gotta agree with ya 200 percent.
Hmm, did he post that just to be social? :-)
Tom
In the summer months in NYC, the subway platforms can be extremely hot and uncomfortable. Especially if one needs to wear a suit & tie for work.
So I've always wondered: Will NYC ever join modern civilization, and have air conditioned subway stations? Or at least better ventilation for hot summer months? In 10 years? 20 years? Never? Is there any way to make NYC subway stations cooler during the summer months??
It is Air Cooling. There is a big difference.
In air cooling chilled water is passed thru pipes which pass thru grids. Air is forced thru these grids and comes out cooler (and a bit moist). We have this system where I live in Co-Op City and it is fine but it is still not as good as A/C.
The GC subway station is getting fed chilled water from the system used in GCT above.
In Air Conditioning the air is cooled by passing thru chemically chilled grids (usually using Freon or other coolant lile a refrigerator). The moisture is also removed.
The system in the subway station is not that good unless you are near or directly underneath one of the blower fans. The mistake they made was putting the vents directly underneath instead of on the sides and blowing downward.
The best method for dealing with sweltering platforms is to not think about it [highly unlikely since riders are restless in heat]. Ok the real best method is to install fans in the platforms, hey its better than nothing.
Well bro, we's a stinky lifeform!
No that's what happens when people don't have proper hygiene :-\.
Don't get me wrong; I concur (and am happy) that us Norteamericanos are probably the worlds biggest consumers of "personal hygiene" products. Ideally, anyway, we are all seeking to not provoke our neighbors with advertant or inadvertant transfers of data-laden secretions of one type or another. Thus we enable a more balanced and peaceful social intercourse. Say what you will, I'd bet OUR subways smell a hell of a lot better than those in most other countries.
Oh yeah that's a given ;-D. One time I was on a R42 L the train car was frosty cold then it got packed and the A/C just evaporated and the musty smell took over :-X [it was awful]. That's true I'm SURE that our systems smells a far better [in terms of b.o. than other systems all over the world].
As it is now, subway stations are almost certainly hotter than when originally opened. This is because new equipment is more powerful and generates more heat energy. Then on top of that, the air conditioning on the subway cars gathers heat from the interior of the cars and adds its own heat and where does the heat go? Into the tunnels and stations, of course.
So now you have to take the heat already in the stations, add the heat from the subway cars and pump it all out into the environment. Very energy inefficient.
Think of it this way. Suppose you have an air conditioner in your bedroom (the subway car), and instead of venting it outside you vent it into your living room (the station). Now to cool the living room you need an air conditioner twice as powerful to remove the living room heat PLUS the bedroom heat.
Actually it is not that bad. There is no reason to cool the tunnels. What you need to have is an area of the station (probably around the turnstyles area) where you have A.C., then to access the platforms you would need to go through a screen door. There is no reason to be on the platform until the train is about to arrive. Some track circuit could alert riders to an oncoming train. During rush hours, the screen door would be permanently kept open to discourage people from lounging in the ticketing area. AEM7
Howard Beach JFK is exactly this. Air conditioned waiting area, beeping and train out the window alert you when to go down.
Actually on the Queens IND every station has at least one and often two, except for Northern, 46st, and probably 36st (at least not manhattan bound). Lots of boring local stations have them, just not in manhattan :·).
You're right though, not necessarily local but direct-to-platform stations don't have them. Although when I did think of those, I thought of Central Park West and 86st/Lex and Nostrand/Fulton, which have annunciators on the upper level for whatever's on the lower level. Completely forgot about street-platform stations without lower levels, such as most IRT local stops in Manhattan, 4th ave subway, et al.
So maybe, 80% have at least one annunciator for something in the station complex. That leaves 93 stations without annunciation of any kind.
..The trains also have regenerative braking systems which cycle power back into the third rail, reducing the heat given off in stations..
http://brooklyn.about.com/library/weekly/aa072200a.htm
Is it worth the tradeoff? You decide.
At least during the heavy travel times, most people will spend more time on trains than on platforms, so the tradeoff's pretty clear.
NYCT however drags its feet into any "new innovation". One train of R-38s and only half the R-40s were air conditioned, finally with the R-42 the TA realized that fans weren't enough anymore!
Take a look at this picture, on top of the temp PATH station's roof. Those look like AC compressors, right?
If the station is fully enclosed (except for the tunnel entrance and exit) then there should not be too much of a problem.
Besides from the photo you can't really tell how big they are.
Well, what about the LA MTA subway stations? Are they a.c.? Gotta be hotter over there anyway, or at least hotter more often than what we get in the summer. Maybe, four months out of the year.
-Robert King
It's worth the cost.
On the other hand, staffed stations aren't, and yet they're still there.
However the most crowded subway/transfer stations, Union Square, Penn Station, GCT etc should get air conditioning.
How about heaters for outdoor stations in the winter?
Not a bad idea and wouldn't be as costly as installing A/C but they have heaters on the mezzanine level and that might be considered to be "sufficient".
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=523818
Jimmy :)
Anyhow, I'm glad you had a nice time at Coney Island. I was on the Q and the N today and I saw a lot of beach-goers. I'm sure the scenery there was spectacular. Was the beach wall-to-wall umbrellas, all the way back to the boardwalk?
Jimmy
Was the R-40-M in service? I thought only R-68's run on weekends.
>>I have lost a lot of weight and continue to do so, but the lose is good for my training which will start pretty soon.<<
I have found that whenever I lose weight, I cannot eat as much as I did when I was heavier. People say it's something about the "stomach shrinking". If that happens to you, that contest sould be extremely difficult!
Jimmy
No 1 Broadway Local 242 Street/Broadway - South Ferry (Outer Loop)
No 2 7 Avenue Express Dyre Av or East 180 St - Flatbush Avenue
(Express 96 St-Chambers St)
No 3 7 Avenue Express 145 Street - New Lots Av
(Express 96 St-Chambers St
No 4 Lexington Av Express Woodlawn Road-Utica Avenue
(Express 125 St-Utica Av)
No 5 Lexington Av Express East 241 St-South Ferry (Outer Loop)
(Express 125 St-Brooklyn Bridge
No 6 Lexington Av Local Pelham Bay Park-Brooklyn Bridge
No 7 Flushing Local Main Street-Times Square
3 Avenue Local Guh Hill Road-149 Street
42 Street Shuttle Times Square-Grand Central
No 8 now part of BMT 1
No 9 ran late nights only
Bowling Green Shuttle did not run on Sundays.
Equiptment in use; Lo-V Motors, Lo-V Trailers, Steinway Motors, World's Fair-Steinway Motors, R-12, R-14, R-15, R-21, R-22, R-26, R-28, R-29 Redbirds (arrived in May)
BMT Division
No 1 (QB) Bway-Brighton Lcl via Bridge Astoria-Coney Island (Platform B) Express Bway Canal St-Dekalb Avenue)
No 2 (RR) Bway-4 Avenue Local 57 St/7 Av-95 St/4 Av
No 3 (TT) West End Shuttle 36 St/4 Av-Coney Island (Platform D)
No 4 (N) Bway-Sea Beach Express 57 St/7 Av-Coney Island (Platform A)
Express 57 St-Dekalb AV)
No 5 Culver Shuttle 9 Av-Ditmas Av
No 7 Franklin Av Shuttle --- Franklin Av-Prospect Park
No 11 Myrtle AV Local-- Metropolitan Avenue-Bridge/Jay Streets
No 15 Jamaica Local 168 Street-Broad Street
No 16 14 St-Canarsie Lcl--Rockaway Parkway- 8 Avenue
Nos 6,11 and 13 no longer operated
Nos 10 and 14 ran weekdays only
No 8 now part of No 1 and No 9 now IRT 7
Equiptment: Standard Motors (A,BT and B Configurations), D-Type Triplexes, R-16,R-27,R-30 and R-30A
IND Division
Rt A 8 Avenue Express 207 St-Euclid Av or Lefferts Blvd
(Express 168 St-Canal St)
Rt AA 8 Avenue Local 168 Street-Hudson Terminal
Rt D 6 Avenue Express 205 St-Church Av or Coney Island (Platform C)
(Express 145 St-59 St)
Rt E 8 Avenue Express 179 Street/Jamaica-Hudson Terminal
(Express 71 Av-Queens Plaza
Rt F 6 Avenue Express 179 Street/Jamaica-34 St/6 Av
(Express 71 Av-Queens Plaza
RT GG Bklyn-Queens Local 71 Avenue-Smith/9 Sts
Rt HH Fulton St Local Euclid Av _Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway
NOTE: Rockaway Shuttle actually did not start carrying HH signs until October)
Rts C no longer operated
Rts BB and CC ran weekdays only.
Equiptment: R-1, R-4, R-6, R-7, R-7A, R-9 and R-10
Hudson and Manhattan Railroad
33-HOB
33-JSQ
HT-HOB
HT-JSQ
HT-NWK
Equiptment: Classes A,B,C,D,E, F, G,H, K
PRR Owned MP-38,MP-38A, MP-52
NOTE: Not all the oldest classes may have been in service.
Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway Company
Tottenville Local--Saint George-Tottenville
Equiptment: MUE-1
Public Service Coordinated Transport of New Jersey
Newark City Subway
#7 City Subway- Pennsylvania Station-Franklin Av
Equiptment: Ex Twin Cites's PCC
Ferry Services;
New York City Department of Marine & Aviation
Rt Staten Island Ferry - Whitehall St,Man-St George,SI
Rt Bklyn-Staten Island Ferry St George,SI-69 Street,Bklyn
Rt North Brother's Island Ferry East 134 St, Bronx-North Brothers Is.
Rt Rikers Island Ferry - East 134 St, Bronx-Rikers Island
Erie-Lackawanna Railroad
Rt Hoboken Ferry - Barclay St, Man - Hoboken
Central Railroad on New Jersey
Rt Communipaw Ferry Liberty St,Man- Jersey City
Rockaway Boat Lines
Rt Sheepdip Bay - Breezy Point-Rockway Point
Larry, RedbirdR33
Not during the daytime; the two ran more or less as follows:
Sunday
12mid-6am East 241 St-New Lots Av
6am-8pm Dyre Av-Flatbush Av
6am-12mid East 180 St-Flatbush Av
Larry, RedbirdR33
BMT Equitmeny add Q-Type Motors and Trailers.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Those were some great summers in the 60's back before Chrystie Street. There was a lot of new equiptment coming in but much of the old stuff was still around and you could definitly tell each of the three divisions apart. And we had the last two els, one each for the IRT and the BMT. I often refer to that period as a watershed before everything changed with the opening of Chrystie Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Fred: One thing you could say about the Triplexes was that they died in a hurry. It seemed like one day they were there and the next day they were gone. The Standards and the Lo-Vs took some time in their passing.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I know that the IRT used #8 again briefly for the third ave el, but that had to end in 1973. It seems to me that they should fill in #8 again the next time they add a new service. I surely don't think anyone would be confused.
To what era does this signage date? Was this the IND standard?
see pics here
And that is why the doors don't work properly, the automated announcements don't work properly, and the signs don't work! Aside from that, the equipment is pristine and state of the art! ;-)
Jimmy
The downside of course is even reasonably smart NJT commuters no longer know what to expect in terms of door placement. Just because the first 5 cars had center doors doesn't mean the one that stops right in front of you will. A solid consist with no center doors maybe 2 people per car will expect one. But these mixed things, people scramble all over the platform.
Only two trains running this morning!
Jimmy
Jimmy
They buried the signal cables about two years ago. And, welded rail has already been installed on about half the curves on the line.
I noticed another little change a few weeks ago. A long time ago the line obviously had two tracks. All the way along the gravel is spread around wide enough for a second track to be put in place. There are many tiny little bridges that span the numerous little creeks and streams, along the way. All of them have an extra set of disused ties, and all the associated hardware, right where the second track would normally be. At the Tuxedo station there's a clearly visible abandoned platform. It's now mostly cover with weeds, but if you look right where you'd expect to have a platform for the nonexistent second track, there it is.
Well, I noticed a couple of weeks ago that all the bridges now have a little narrow maintenance walkway installed, the same exact kind you got running between the tracks across the NYC subway bridges, and Els. Not exactly sure what purpose they serve here, some of the little bridges are only ten or twelve feet long.
Over all, the ridership on the Port Jervis line has at least doubled over the last decade. Back then, the parking lot at Harriman was, on weekdays, maybe 4/5th full. A couple of years ago they repainted the entire lot, and squeezed in an extra hundred parking spots by shrinking them. That didn't help for long. People now must park on the grass, again. Last week they opened a new small lot at Tuxedo, $1.50 a day, and posted signs at Harriman telling people to drive over there. That'll probably hold the tide for another 2-3 months, until they finish building the expansion lot at Harriman that almost doubles the number of parking spots there. They're also adding an extra lane to the exit ramp.
At the rate this is going, they'll need to soon start thinking about building a second track, at least as far up as Harriman. Maybe even a small yard there (there's plenty of real estate, out in the boonies). There not a lot of people that go all the way to the end of the line; the trains mostly empty out at Harriman; half of what's left gets off at Middletown.
I can tell you this, though: after the new signals were supposedly put in, I can't say that I've noticed any noticeable improvement. Just like ten years ago, when a thunderstorm blows through lower Hudson valley you can count on at least one signal keeling over, and screwing everything up.
And, there's always the chance of getting stuck somewhere in no-mans-land, and arriving at PeeJay an hour late. You'll have just enough time to step out behind the bushes, to take a piss, before you have to head back.
Delays of an hour, or more, especially on weekends, especially in inclement weather, are not that uncommon up here. And, you're lucky if you get away with an hour's worth of cooling your heels. About four months ago, the crew for the Saturday evening train out of PeeJay just didn't show up! I don't know what happened to all the poor folks (including the mob that was coming back from Woodbury Commons), I was lucky enough to get a ride to Suffern, where I caught the next local. I hope they could at least manage to find a bus for those poor souls, and they didn't have to wait five hours for the late-night local.
Jimmy
Definitive: I will.
I guess I'll go get a weekly transpass if it's going to be outragiously hot the week after next (which, given it's july, it should be, but because I buy the pass, it will be friggin beautiful, 75 and sunny with low humidity), since 14.00 round trip on SEPTA (anywhere status on the weekend!) plus a weeks worth of rides makes it worth it.
I guess for now I'm going, if something turns up in the next two weeks I'll let you know I'm not going as soon as possible
I think I am leaning towards the 26th as a better day for me.
Next stop: Short Beach
Peace,
ANDEE
Well yeah but...heck, the development indicates the viability of the line. I fully understand the many laments railfans express regarding vanishing infrastructure. Got a few a those meself...
But still glad about the upgrading. This IS a line you can get to by taking a ferryboat from the Financial District. Historic stuff, and it's not just a museum...no offense. So if the clickety-clack and lineside appearance is altered...at least the mileage posts still mean exactly what they say, as opposed to, fer instance, the LIRR with the L.I.C. terminal missing mile discrepancy.
The Main Line already runs through Secaucus Transfer and it is mostly completed, but NJT will not open it until PATH WTC reopens.
The Bergen line will be rerouted to serve ST in August, and will stop there for former Harmon Cove passengers. HC is being abandoned in order to allow the Bergen and Pascack Valley lines to be rerouted through ST.
Wait unntil the Bergen line riders "find out" about this. You think a similar "brew-hah-ha" will erupt "after-the-fact" like it did in Montclair?
So were the Montclair Connection plans, I assume.
It would make much more sense just to have Spring Valley trains stop at Harmon Cove. They don't need new equipment, and Harmon Cove doesn't really need anything more than the peak-direction-only service.
This makes too much sense. Probably that's why it won't happen.
And, yes, I expect a lot of bitching when all Main/Bergen/Port Jervis people find out that they now have an extra stop.
Except for the ones who actually want to go to midtown.
There may be more bitching because hordes of former bus customers for midtown suddenly start taking the trains. This could double or triple the volume on the lines that used to only go to Hoboken.
Actually I see 3 reasons why they chose to do it this way...
1. The 2% of people who will be using this to get from the Newark Div. to Hoboken will not have to flip a coin as to which end of the station to run to.
2. Less elevators, platforms, lighting, infrastructure in general to worry about. At minimum one additional elevator would have been necessary.
3. Ever since the accident at the current splitting point NJT has had a desire to eliminate that interlocking.
What accident?
But how are Harmon Cove passengers going to get to ST? I don't see any public access routes for cars or shuttle buses to use.
Don't consider me in choosing a date; I may not be able to make the 26th either. I appreciate your giving me every consideration. I suspect it's because (a) we're close railfan friends; (b) you value my mature perspective or (c) you need a ride to Hamilton.
Whichever date is selected, I'll attend if I can, but they're all doubtful.
....and then start praying?
Jimmy
No. The "farewell" refers to some track re-routing. The Port Jervis service has good (and growing) ridership.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Im trying to understand precisely what the trackage changes will be when Secausus Transfer station comes online. I understand the Harmon Cove station will be abandoned, but does that include the trackage too? Perhaps the simplest explanation, if it is indeed correct, is that the interlocking between the Main and Bergen County Lines will be moved west, hence bypassing/abandoning a short segment of the Bergen County Line.
Can you (or anyone) embellish or clarify? I didn't think the new station would affect any trackage.
THANX
Conrad Misek
Boston
The part of the Bergan County line between the Hackensack River bridge and today's Bergan Junction, including Harmon Cove station, will be history.
I brought up an interesting question about a month ago. With the transfer station having high level platforms, and the Pascack Valley line running equipment without traps, how will that stop be managed?
On this topic, yesterday Metro North announced the schedule for a Pascack Valley express starting August 4th. I will have to find time to ride it.
An interesting point to make is that Harmon Cove is just a few hundred feet south of where the Bergen Line will turn onto the new trackage. Closing the station may have not been required as part of this reroute.
Right now, Main Line has three tracks between the Secaucus station, and the current Main/Bergen fork. One of the three tracks is out of service at the moment, or at least as of earlier this week when I rode through the area the third time.
By the luck of the draw, I haven't taken the Main Line route in about 5-6 months, so I don't know much of what's been done recently on the Main Line side of things. On the Bergen side the new tracks at Harmon Cove still haven't been connected yet -- as of earlier this week -- so they're going to go down straight to the wire.
I can tell though, from looking towards the Main Line as I head up Bergen, that it appears to me like the street grade crossing on the Main Line, just north of the ST station platforms, is about to be eliminated and replaced by a new bridge. I can see looking west (while going north at 55MPH) that there's something that looks like a bridge growing there, and the process of elimination doesn't leave many other possibilities...
There's another freight line switch about two miles south of Harmon cove, and a few hundred feet north of the existing Main/Bergen split. Both freight lines appear to be regularly used.
They might rip out one of the tracks, and leave the other one to handle freight.
Frankly NJT should have left things as is and simply installed platforms on the current Bergen Line alignment that connected to the north end of the Secaucas Transfer station. The ST nearly spans the entire gap b/t the two lines, it would have been very feasible and much cheaper. Now we have a slow, curvy stretch of track to negioiate.
Are you related in any way to Martin Van Nostrand?
Watch: I can get this thread back to transit.
The English in the 1500s (as well as before and since) were notorious for mucking up foreign names. They couldn't keep straight the difference between the residents of the Spanish Netherlands (who spoke a language those people called Hollandisch) and the residents of the 100s of principalities of the former Holy Roman Empire (who spoke a language those residents called Deutsch).
So they called the Hollanders "Dutch", which was a corrpution of Deutsch, the German word for German.
How is this related to transit? The English also put up a memorial in honor of a visiting dignitary from Spain, El Infante de Castille. They so mucked that name up they called the place Elephant and Castle, giving us the current London Underground station name.
Now THAT is an interesting bit of trivia!
The first one would be more interesting if it wasn't so obvious.
subfan
Not quite; Holland is one of two regions (provinces?) in the Netherlands - I can't recall the name of the other region right now.
Flanders.
:-) Andrew
Yes, I'm Doctor van Nostrand.
"Yes, I'm Doctor van Nostrand."
Hi. I from VanDeLey Industries. We're an import and export firm. Don't ask...
At least that's what I've been able to figure out from reading today's Subtalk threads.
Got it!
Yes, there were certainly fences in the way.
Here's another terrorist -- oops, I mean photographer -- trying to aim through the fence:
Speaking of which the first looks like its a Slant dive bombing into the ground.
Free crossovers were restored when the new headhouse across the street opened in October 2002.
Bill "Newkirk"
The glass one across the street is new.
Bill "Newkirk"
No one heard anything, so no one helped her -- everyone feels terrible about that.
The previous serious crime in Windsor Terrace also involved being followed home from the subway. An old woman was followed home from a cash machine in Manhattan, on the F train, to her home where she was pushed in when she unlocked the door and murdered.
Stories like these make you wonder whether New York's famously low crime rate of recent years is heading back up. There seems to be some evidence pointing in just that direction. It could be that the police are spending so much time worrying about a (nonexistent) terrorist threat, doing things like harassing innocent railfans, that "regular" criminals are facing less pressure.
In any event, the best way of avoiding "followed home" crimes like these two is through a better awareness of one's surroundings. The victim in this latest one, being a hospital intern, probably had been working for many hours and was quite out of it when she was on her way home. She may not have realized she was being followed until it was too late.
She said she felt like she was being followed as soon as she left the train ststion but as soon as she was near her 10 Av home, that's when this crime happened. She was coming from a hospital in the city in where she works as a medical intern.
Or if it ever went down. Just like lateness in the subway, all you know about is what's reported. I'm sure like NYCT has to downgrade lateness, the NYPD has a system of manipulating the facts in order to downgrade a crime.
Which may be due to greater reporting rather than more actual crimes. Murder rates are considered the most reliable indicators of overall crime rates because virtually all of them come to the police's attention, hence the numbers aren't affected by changes in the propensity of victims to report offenses. Auto theft is a useful number too, as almost all are reported due to insurance reasons.
One thing about New York's crime rate -- rape was below average here even when things were at their worst. Perhaps because there aren't as many opportunities like this one where no one is around. The big crime declines in recent years have been in categories in which NYC is far above average (ie. robbery).
http://www.arts-entertainment-recreation.com/Recreation/Food/
Unfortunately, from 12:00 a.m to 6:00 a.m. there was no such place in Windsor Terrace. At any other time someone might happen along, but not at that time. She could have stayed in the subway and gone over to the booth, but she said she felt like she was being followed after she got out.
If she had been able to scream, someone might have heard, and people would have come out. But I could see someone being unwilling to scream just because they sensed they were being followed, and then found themselves to have made a big fuss over nothing.
So I'm not sure what the lesson is. We could try to set up an overnight citizen patrol, but after a few years of sleepless nights in which nothing happens I doubt we could keep it up. If it is going to be several years between incidents, the criminals can outlast us.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while on this board. NY is not so dangerous that someone should think twice about walking at night.
A few weeks ago, a woman decided not to go through with a gang initiation, and they were going to attack her. Her cousin came to her rescue, and was promptly shot and stabbed repeatedly. This happened in braod daylight.
Perhaps it isn't safe to be outside anytime.
Nonsense bravado. Would I want my daughter carrying a gun, and trying to pull it out of her purse after being jumped from behind? The result might just as easily have been her own death.
The illegality of carrying guns has permitted the NYPD to drive guns off the street, since being caught with one is a no-defense route to a long jail sentence. So the woman didn't have a gun, but neither did the assailant.
The rising confidence that guns are not likely to be present means that if anyone had heard, people would have come out and attacked the attacker. Not so if this was Dodge City. People would have ducked behind the walls and waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves would have approached carefully.
There are more non-criminals that criminals. Guns are an equalizer --for the criminals. Fewer guns make crimes like this one more difficult to pull off.
Pretty much true. It's worth noting that the mainly southern and western states where gun permits are easily available tend to have higher crime rates than states where guns are less available.
Even so, there's an exception that proves every rule, and this case may be one of them. It sounds as if the victim was not ambushed, but knew for some time that she was being followed. Merely displaying a gun, had she been carrying one, undoubtedly would have scared off the attacker. Again, though, this was an unusual case.
Where did you get that idea? Everyone out there has statistics to show that more guns either reduce crime or raise it. It's pretty hard to come to your conclusion when you can find any type of stat to prove or disprove your point.
Women who try using these "defense sprays" against attackers rarely are successful. Most often the attacker simply wrestles it away from the woman and may very well use it on her. If the woman does manage to get off a spray, it generally misses the attacker or doesn't have much effect on him.
Mark
Any animal (including a human) that close to the ROW qualifies as endangered. It does not have to be part of an endangered species.
Tom
I assumed he ment "endangered" as in soon to be 12-9 or deer me, or whatever the might call it out there.
Elias
I think somebody also felt that I was endangered for also trespassing, but a chain link fence separated me from the railroad.
Chaohwa
: )
Mark
--Mark
:)
*Do note that the 200 ton, mile or two long freight trains do not require anything near Tier I for the crew, why are they so different? Do we have superman in the cab of every freight train?
See the first four photos on this Webshots page.
All the photos:Click here and choose July 06, 2003
Some highlights, if you are in a rush:
I think our favorite "Queen of the Underground" is the T/O of the above pictured work train
Terrorist wannabe...
BTW, is the 4th photo from the bottom an example of the melting pot of choices of women we have in the city?
See this is good. Unlike the photo of the "14th St" girl, now if someone's not happy with one, they just look to the next one.
(and I didn't even mention the usual mystical chix comment that someone always brings up)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I must be getting old. I looked at that photo and thought it looked like a dip's dream of paradise. :-)
Tom
Also, I really took about 267 photos today, but I have 37 photos of buses I haven't cropped yet and there were a few photos I didn't post because they weren't worthy :)
Damn. even if I set my camera to continuous shooting mode and stood on the platform I probably wouldn't match that.
I got one yesturday too, as well as the flats and the loco.
Burst mode is when the photos are taken in bursts: automatically, one after the other.
BTW, isn't that crane blocking traffic in the opposite direction?
Did the "terrorist wannabe" leave that note on the sign or was it already there?
The sign by the other staircase said that it would be closed beginning 7/3. Good thing they didn't close that one on schedule.
Bill "Newkirk"
********************************************************************
This is a really facinating in depth look at what really went on when your find your Amtrak train arriving 50 minutes late.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#What
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The problem is that California won't have any money available for about the next thousand years.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#California
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Yeah, wasn't it last month we were getting all those glossy HSR reports from the Sunshine state?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#No
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Don't we all?
httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#N.C.
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This is getting more and more pathetic. What next, Township plans for TGV system?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#Michigan
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A step closer than last week, but still no talk of funding.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#BART
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I really think they could have found a different name.
httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#KCS
Anyway,after assisting the fellow confused as hell passenger's,I went down to 9St in Brooklyn then hopped on the B75 bus,NF #846 and took it to Smith-9Sts and then took the G train to Court Sq and hopped on a E train and took that to Roosevelt Av where I caught up to an R train and took that to Woodhaven Blvd.
After eating my dinner at Queens Center,I hopped on the Q29 bus and took it to 82St where I hopped on the 7 train and took that to QBP and then took the B61 bus to Williamsburg and then the B39 across the Williamsburg to Essex St,then the M14A to 7Av and finally the 1 train home.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Next stop on Fred's favorite train---Pacific Avenue (AFTER WE CROSS THE MANNY B STARTING NEXT YEAR. I AM COUNTING THE MONTHS.)
No wonder Sea Beach line fans have short term memory, it's Pacific STREET, not Avenue.
Next stop on the Q express, Atlantic Avenue. Please stand clear of the closing doors. (Doors close shut)
I like tapered sides better because they break up the plainness of flat sides. Looking from bottom to top, a tapered side gives more features for the viewer to analyze, so you look at the car longer. Horizontal stripes also look better on a tapered car. It enhances the tapering point. The 142's stripes look like they were placed there in order to break up the bareness of the featureless steel. If the 143 has stripes, it would look like a part of the body and not just some stick-on tape.
Another major plus for me is that tapered sides make the car body itself look more slimmer and sexy. Take a look at the photos of the 142 and 143 I linked to. The 142 is narrower, but because of the flat sides, it actually looks wider than the 143. While wider cars are better for practical purpose, narrow cars look better to me, and tapered sides give me the best of both worlds.
However, they also consume interior space, which is at a premium on A Division cars, both because they're narrow and because they're a bit too popular for their own good. I'm quite glad the R-142's don't have tapered sides. OTOH, the red stripes sure are tacky.
The ribbed sides are also bad because dirt collects in the grooves easier.
As for the original question, I think I prefer the tapered R-143.
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
The 142's stripes look like they were placed there in order to break up the bareness of the featureless steel.
I know. The R-142's do look quite bare from the sides. They should have made the 142's look like the R110a. They could have at least added the R62's steel stripes.
Mark
The R-142/142As red stripes are there to indicate the presence of wheelchair seating in that particular car. Hence, on a 10 car train, th 1st, 5th, 6th and 10th cars would have the stripe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
And does it actually have Wheelchair accessable space?
Peace,
ANDEE
Why was this done to 1 car only?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know anything more?
Mark
Wayne
J trainloco talked about how the sides slant out and back on some B division cars. The CQ312 has that, plus a gentle curve.
Jersey Mike likes 'em ribbed for his pleasure :-), and this car has that.
Michalovic said he likes stripes when they accented steel strips, and there are stripes that span along the widest part of the car
Peter Rosa doesn't like the stark and utilitarian look of the flat sides, the 312 has ribbed sides, an accent stripe, black around the windows that looks clean and not too busy.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21463.jpg
MikeF likes those "porches" to fill in the gap caused by the bottom curve.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21460.jpg
R142 #2 doesn't like squarish and boring cars, and the 312 does not have square lines.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21427.jpg
Can anyone find a better combo of the thing mentioned in this thread? Did I miss any features?
Erythrornithophiles will disagree.
That's one greatpiece of Ancient Greek wordsmithing, there!
Mark
All in all, I'd have to say the best looking tapered car is the R42.
:-) Andrew
How do you feel about the R-38? Am I the only one who finds it very attractive, inside and out?
Probably. I hate 'em. They're better than R-44's, I suppose, but I prefer R-32's.
As for R-42's, they WERE nice, when they had the blue stripe, but now that they've lost it and they're all rusted on the roofs, they look horrible.
Ill agree with that.
As for R-42's, they WERE nice
I just can't get into that inset door, even with the stripes and being new. I like the plug door on the R44/46, makes it look much better.
:-) Andrew
The R42's aren't so bad. The R40 series is just disgusting. Both cars look like they were put together with shoddy workmanship, but the R40's look way worse. And I've never seen a car series with doors that get stuck so frequently. In my book, a redbird ranks higher than these.
On the outside I'll give you that but the duct tape & brown superglue on the roofline really takes away from it. On the interior it is not that bright compared to a R32.
I think we already know many NYers are morons. :)
Mark
I'll be passing through Atlanta on July 26, and I gave myself a nice window for railfanning. Are you free that day?
Mark
Mark
They also look wrong running in a 2-car set. My favorite is the R46.
Thank you!
Mark
DAY 1: July 4
I started my day riding an R142A 6 train from Canal Street. I got off at Grand Central to find the Transit Museum Store but it was closed on the 4th.
So i then took an R62 7 train to Times Square so I could find a redbird and hopefully its lights will go out on the junction at TSQ. I waited for about 7-8 R62 trainsets to pass before I got my redbirds. I headed straight to the R33S where I was greeted by no one. Only a few brave souls stayed in that non-air conditioned car.
The redbirds were not in good shape at all. The storm doors kept coming unlatched on the R33S and kept swinging open on some of the other cars.
R33S interior.
I rode the redbirds to Queensboro Plaza, which is where I took these two pics:
After romaing around Queensboro Plaza, i went down to the Manhattan bound tracks and hopped on an R68 W train. I got off at Lex Av/59th St.
From here I boarded a R142A 6 train and headed to 14th St./Union Square so I can ride an R143 for the first time. I rode an R143 L train to 8th Avenue and got off there to take this pic:
After this I walked to the A train platform on 14th St. Here I found these strange copper statues of little round headed men and alligators:
I went uptown to 59th Street/Columbus Circle on an R44 A train and exited there. Stupidly, I faced the express track platform hoping that the doors would open b/c the A is an express route. The doors opened on the local platform side for some odd reason.
Anyways, I then took an R38 A train back down to 14th St. I took another R143 L train back to Union Square and headed back to the 6 platform to head back to my lodging, which was my aunt's apartment on Park Row.
On the platform a woman approached me asking for directions to NYU. I should have told her to follow me on a downtown 6 and get off at Astor Place, which is like next to NYU, but stupidly I told her to take a uptown 6, thinking that I was standing at Canal Street, which is where I was going to get off. I got on another R142A 6 train and went back to my temporary home. I had to call it a day to spend some time with the family members me, my parents, and I were visiting.
Part 2 of my trip recap comes tomorrow, it will include:
Far better redbird pics than the ones on this post
An explanation on the smashed up police car
And much more.
The center platform at 59 St-CC is not used by revenue trains. Just pretend it's not there, and the station becomes a regular IND express station.
Awesome photos, BTW, especially of the (L) train. The photos came out so clear and crisp. What camera are you using?
Do us a favor so we will not have to relive your day in real time, link to the photos rather than making them part of the post. Although the pictures are good, I was able to bake a pizza in the time it took for your post to download. :-(
Tom
Chuck Greene
And the Redbirds on the 7 are in terrible shape. A select few even have tiny holes developing in the carbodies (mostly closest to the roof).
Boy aren't we going to miss the Brids once they're all gone from the 7 :-(. Nice pics of the Redbirds, especially the one with the zoomed in front.
more here...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/04/nyregion/04REEF.html
#3 West End Jeff
If open, as you say, as the train starts up the gate comes down. How is this accomplished? I assume that it is not via detection of an increase in power resulting from a throttle application, because that method, if used, would only apply to MUs, and electric pulled trains, not diesels operating in diesel mode.
Hmmm. Got me wondering...does the LIRR have real-time knowledge of the up/down state of ALL the gates?
P.S. I'm planning on using an R42 for the base of my planned Rollsign applet.
Started out hoping to catch my usual 8:31 D express at 205th Street. I get to the platform, and its packed like there hasn't been a train there in a while. Then theres an announcement that there is no direct manhattan service from this station (205th Street). So I had to take a Shuttle train to Bedford Park Blvd. to catch the train to manhattan. At Bedford Park Blvd., another announcement was made that D trains were running Local from Bedford Park Blvd. to Tremont Avenue, then express stops to Manhattan. All B service was terminating and originating at Tremont Avenue. Quite a few people seemed confused, which prompted both the Conducter and Train Operator to make announcements at Tremont Ave. that the train was going express to 145th Street.
I guess that Tremont Avenue destination on roll signs would have been
came in handy this morning!?!
My Questions:
1. Does anyone know if this will be the norm on the Concource Line for a while, or is it just a one time thing?
2. With the headways that the B and D run on currently, would a service pattern like this work on a regular basis, whether it be during rush hours or off hours-specifically hours when B services it curtailed to 145th street?
Yes, the 205th St. / BPB shuttle thing is supposed be the norm for a while. Although, I didn't think it was supposed to start for a few weeks. I've been dealing with it on the overnights, 1200-0500, for a few weeks now and consider myself lucky that I get on at BPB.
I will check my sources and get back to you.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
What does this mean to you? You may ask.
It means you will experience what you saw this morning, for several months 24/7.
My advice to you, start walking to BPB.
Peace,
ANDEE
There will be years of G.O.s as the signal system is replaced. Fortunately, there are three tracks, so you'll have two open most of the time. You might just need to go a stop or two out of your way and reverse. But they'll be weekend shutdowns when they replace the switches between tracks.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know what to expect on my weekend commutes to work.
-Stef
That is in the near future, also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, have you been working at 205th? I'll have to stop by and say hello.
Peace,
ANDEE
2. IMO, I think it wouldn't since the D would be making an extra stop [at 182/183] & it would add extra time to the commute north of Fordham Rd so that is unlikely.
What's up with that?
The other variation is the E out of 179 Street in the AM. It runs from 179 to WTC, and on the return trips drops out at Union Tpke, discharges and runs light to 179 St where it lays up in the back.
I used to get one of those jobs fairly often, considering I was XXL and they were high seniority jobs. In fact the job out of 179 St I used to get was a 1 trip job (as well as another out of P/A). Couldn't beat them with any other job in the system :)
If you are fortunate enough to get a seat while riding the subway, especially on the IRT, please have enough consideration to tuck your feet under the seats, so fellow passengers can walk by in the car aisle. The newest IRT cars have a lot of space under the seats for this specific purpose. IRT cars are very narrow and some of them have poles that are somewhat difficult to walk around. If you would tuck in your feet, you would make things much easier for your fellow riders.
Thanks.
However we with long legs really can't do anything about it, and there are many of us. There are a lot of people that like to stick there legs far out and make passing impossible. Or even standing, as there's less staning room.
Also I find the new seats a little too uncomfortable to relly stick my feet under as they jab into the back of my knees.
Sit on a couple of phonebooks ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When you're operating the train? Man, Lou, you're an easygoing guy!
The main rule is any feet that are not tucked in are fair game to be stepped on. (^_^).
Being considerate in the NYC subway, don't always expect it 8-).
My questions from this observation is has the TA gone and scared the crews so bad that they won't even ask for permision to open the front half of the train that is fully platformed?
Supervision had to know since the arrivng train was rerouted to the express track.
Are the crews forbiddin to open doors at all when not at the proper markers unless supervision is present could be an explaination.
Not opening the front half of the train led to an even more dangerous sititution with customers exiting from between cars and I don't understand at all FORECING a detrained customer and child to get back on the train when they were safley on the platform.
If the C/R had called control I'm sure that he/she would have been given permission to open the section of the train completely in the station, or at the least key open crew doors. I've seen it done before.
People exiting between the cars is dangerous, you are correct. It shows how New Yorkers have no regard for their safety or the safety of others. I'm sure that a lawyer would be too happy to take the case if someone fell and got injured. And New Yorkers probably know that well.
Besides that if someone fell and was injured, with the T/O investigating there'd be the possibility of taking them for the cause of the BIE. If not, then that would certainly increase the delay as they'd have to be rescued from the tracks.
The police wanted someone on that train, and if there were announcements made they would have been tipped off and tried to exit in some other fashion. I believe this is the singular instance where delay announcements are not to be made. Can anyone back me on that?
Years ago a bank robber in Camden fled the scene by getting on a PATCO train at the Broadway station. PATCO was notofied very quickly and stopped the train before it reached Ferry Ave (next station eastbound). The perp easily figured out what they were doing, slipped out between cars, and ran off. (PATCO goes from subway to above ground just east of Broadway station)
Or, even worse, taken hostages.
Fat lot of good that would have done you in a subway tunnel.
;^)
If that were the case the train would not likely gone BIE,
and the T/O would not have opened the door to get out.
The Brits and the Japs seem to have a door in the crew compartment that wound not be accessible to pax anyway.
Elias
Oh! Whoops, my bad, they ARE using the Chuchubob Maneuver. Good for them, that's being resourceful.
That's being reckless and illegal.
Nah, while I was reading the thread, choochoo dumped, T/O walked off, no recharge, everybody wondering what was going on, Marks says "My train" and nothing else up to that point, I figured we weren't going to find out wha'happened. Then, message or two later, Mark indicated what had happened.
I just figured the blue curtain of secrecy had surrounded the train and it was pushed off to 76th Street with all on board. :)
Well, there you have it. It was dangerous to get off the train because there is no station at KINDS Highway. ;-)
Please ... please ... it's a joke. See the smiley?
Don't hurt me.
Isn't it three stops after H Avenue?
ANNOUNCEMENTS WERE MADE
Control instructed US NOT TO OPEN ANY DOORS (Front or back) After asking for permission.
As for the T/O not letting people off, I don't know. I was keying people off in my position.
The R40Ms don't have exterior PA speakers so you're not very likely to hear the announcements made with the doors closed.
This is intended to benefit New Jersey, and would be electrified the same way NJT trains are. In any event, this alternative has been disgarded in favor of a straight connection to Penn.
I liked the RPA suggestion -- a super shuttle from Secaucus Transfer to Grand Central via 43rd St, then down Second Avenue to Lower Manhattan, then out to Jamaica.
The loop connects to non-electrified lines.
However as mentioned NJ has (for now) givin up on the alternative "G" proposal and instead is focusing on "P" and "S".
"New Jersey makes new tunnel plans
In a move that may affect generations of commuters, New Jersey transportation officials voted to focus on getting a new train tunnel built to New York Penn Station. They also set aside plans to extend a proposed new Hudson River rail tunnel to Grand Central Terminal on Manhattan’s East Side, according to the Newark Star-Ledger of June 30.
The undertaking is estimated to cost as much as $5 billion, a project New Jersey Transit say is essential for the state to prevent its already strained rail system from becoming overwhelmed by the growing numbers of commuters to Midtown Manhattan.
Rail advocates and watchdog groups expressed disappointment that a $4.9 million environmental impact study authorized by NJ Transit earlier this month will not explore the link to Grand Central Terminal.
“What was originally promised is now being put on the back burner,” said Al Papp, a director with the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers. He added, “Our expectations have been dashed.”
NJT officials said they opted to take a more pragmatic approach, otherwise they said they might jeopardize the progress on the tunnel by making the project too ambitious.
Connecting the tracks from the new tunnel to Grand Central would have increased the price by billions of dollars, drastically complicated the construction work and prolonged the job by years, officials said.
Moreover, New York transportation agencies have resisted NJT’s attempts to build a link to Grand Central, particularly because the agency wants to build a new link that would bring Long Island Rail Road trains to that station, officials said.
“Our main objective is to increase tunnel capacity under the river,” said NJT’s chief planner, Richard Roberts.
“All this talk about where we go on the other side is irrelevant unless we get the access across the river. We should not get caught up in a big study for a project we can’t build within the time-frame and we can’t afford to build,” Roberts said.
Even without the Grand Central Terminal connection, the new tunnel will not be completed until 2015 at the earliest, a schedule that depends upon New Jersey prevailing in the highly competitive battle for federal funding and on the massive construction work going smoothly.
The existing tunnels from New Jersey to Midtown Manhattan, which are used by Amtrak and NJT, were built in 1910. They carry about 19 trains per hour each way during rush hour - and that number will increase to 25 by the end of this year.
Sometime in the next decade that tunnel will not have enough capacity to handle the demand for commuter trains between New Jersey and Midtown, officials said. In the mid-1990s, NJT, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and the Metropolitan Transit Authority got together to study ways to resolve the capacity crunch.
The project, called “Access to the Region’s Core,” originally looked at 137 possibilities, then narrowed the field to about 15 and eventually to three options that included building a new tunnel, next to the current hole.
All three options remained under consideration until this year. “Alternative P” would end at Penn Station at a new lower level, “Alternative S” would go to the south side of Penn Station and then through to Sunnyside Yard in Queens. “Alternative G” would go through Penn Station and end at Grand Central Terminal, but the environmental study commissioned earlier this month does not call for an analysis of Alternative G.
For New Jersey commuters headed to jobs on Manhattan’s East Side, Alternative G could eliminate overcrowded subway cars or a long walk.
“I used to make that commute,” Papp said.
“I ended up walking because I was tired of being shoved and bumped and having people step on my shoes on the subway,” he remarked.
NJT officials said they do not have updated data on how many of their customers are headed to jobs on the East Side.
Roberts, the agency’s planner, said the connection to the East Side may become less critical in coming decades because New York City has made redeveloping its West Side, from 31st Street to 41st Street, its main priority.
Papp said research done about a decade ago showed a higher percentage of New Jersey commuters worked within walking distance of Grand Central Terminal than from New York Penn Station.
“It would be nice if they could do Alternative G,” said Janine Bauer, executive director of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, a watchdog group, “but this is a less than ideal world. The tunnel itself is still important to the majority of the riders.”
“It’s still a great project, it’s just that the optimal result is going to elude us,” said Martin Robins, executive director of Rutgers University’s Transportation Policy Institute."
With a guy pedaling on a stationary bicycle?
Squirrel cages?
Not quite AOL IM, but it can do the trick in a pinch.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=455053
It is already associated with NYC Subway Resources (not to mention the MTA uses it as well).
Why not come up with your own name for it.
Why must you use "Subtalk". Can't you come up with something different?
I thought about forming this group because Upoc is on most WAP enabled phones and messages can be sent as this group (broadcast to everyone who joins my group) or to individuals who have cell phones and want to meet up with someone else without giving out their phone numbers.
Example: Some people who wanted to meet with Fred and his gang (including myself), were not able to attend because they read the postings on the meeting location a bit too late. With my group, I can broadcast a message (in addition to posting it right here on Subtalk) and everyone will receive it on their computer or on their cell phone, if anyone is outside and on the run. You can even set your alerts to go on when you receive an incoming message on your phone, so you cannot miss anything, and possible meet with the party for some good rail fanning too.
For those not familiar with the WMATA system, the routes operate as this:
Yellow Line/ Huntington to Mt. Vernon Sq-Conv ctr.
Blue Line/ Franc.-Springfield to Addison Rd.
My suggestion [and the routing ORIGINALLY on the first WMATA maps in the 60's/70's] is this:
Yellow Line/ Franc.-Springfld to Mt. Vernon Sq-conv Ctr
Blue Line / Huntington to Addison Rd.
Does anybody agree with this setup? Post your reactions here.
Thanks
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. The ACTUAL routing on the early WMATA maps wasthat the Yellow Line run from Franconia-Springfield to Greenbelt.
After a careful look at ridership patterns and how WMATA always changes things around on July 4th, do you think that the Yellow and Blue lines switch terminals in Virginia?
For those not familiar with the WMATA system, the routes operate as this:
Yellow Line/ Huntington to Mt. Vernon Sq-Conv ctr.
Blue Line/ Franc.-Springfield to Addison Rd.
My suggestion [and the routing ORIGINALLY on the first WMATA maps in the 60's/70's] is this:
Yellow Line/ Franc.-Springfld to Mt. Vernon Sq-conv Ctr
Blue Line / Huntington to Addison Rd.
Does anybody agree with this setup? Post your reactions here.
Thanks
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. The ACTUAL routing on the early WMATA maps wasthat the Yellow Line run from Franconia-Springfield to Greenbelt.
Read this thread and in particular this post. You may just get your wish. I under stand why it was done and I under stand why it is still this way. When WMATA finely gets it fleet up to what it need to be to cover the whole system using no 4 car trains and 34% of the trains running as 8 car trains on close peek headways (under 3 minutes) on Blue Orange and Green Yellow trunks. We will see more then 40% of the trains out of Franconia-Springfield (J03) heading to Greenbelt (E10).
Frankly I would like to see the operational configuration returned to what it was prior to the opening of the Blue line extension to Huntington (C15)
John
Mark
p.s.--I still think it's rather interesting at Huntington & Eisenhower Avenue that if you look close enough at the Yellow dots on the platforms, you can see the edges of Blue dots underneath---During Subtalk DC back in April, I pointed this feature to a few people at Huntington, that is, before we made the mad dash onto the CAF car
Mark
p.s.--I still think it's rather interesting at Huntington & Eisenhower Avenue that if you look close enough at the Yellow dots on the platforms, you can see the edges of Blue dots underneath---During Subtalk DC back in April, I pointed this feature to a few people at Huntington, that is, before we made the mad dash onto the CAF car."
Interesting that you noticed that. Back when these lines were being built a company called Jack Stone Signs had the contract to do all the station graphics. The enamel base brown with white lettering and other colors was baked on the pylons panels before they were installed. The modifications to reflect the present configuration were silk screened at a latter date.
If you closely examine any of the platform pylons along the entire C Route from Huntington (C15) to Metro Center (C01) and the D and G routes from Metro Center (C01) to Addison Road (G03) you will see evidence of the original configuration. All of the platform pylons from Pentagon (C07) to King Street (C13) have both of the never built stations west and south of Van Dorn Street (J02), the Springfield station (original J03) at Backlick road and Norfork Southern railroad right of way and the Franconia Station (original H02) station at Franconia Road and the CSX railroad right of way. I am pretty sure the pylons on the upper level L'Enfant Plaza (F03) also shows the original Franconia and Springfield stations. I am not so sure about Archives (F02) and Gallery Place Station (F01) but I would Hazard a guess they do as well as they were built before the final decision was made to build Franconia-Springfield (J03) and delete the original Franconia and Springfield stations.
John
Mark
mark
Scott M. Kozel of www.roadstothefuture.com fame told me as he works for VDOT that part of a deal that was struck to move the Franconia station south to its present location south of the Springfield Mall called for the deletions of the never built Springfield station off Backlick Road in side the Capitol Beltway VA I-495. I also under stand that there was some funding constrains that were also part of the deal.
Oh and by the way, when the line was built in its present configuration there were no provisions built for a junction that would connect to a future Backlick Road station.
Happened twice yesturday on the #4 and once on the #3, although for the instance on the 3 they managed a stretch.
Peace,
ANDEE
Intoxicated train crew members put the public at risk
The MTA needs to hire professional managmentent and dump the old clubhouse style of management
Random testing is fine. Never said it wasn't.
Don't twist my words.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
OTOH have you noticed there are fewer randoms in the summer when they are short staffed?
Those that use also take all their vacation in a big block.
I banged in someone for drinking, he of course was not sent.
How did they get it here? Did they cut it in quarters and glue it together convincingly afterwards? Or is/was there a way to get a disk 20' across from CA to NY without hitting the roof of a tunnel or an overpass?
Maybe it was transported by ship.
New theory....
Maybe it went by helicopter?
Maybe Peter is right. The section traveled as cargo on a freighter. They didn't have cargo trains yet.;)
Larry, RedbirdR33
The standard seating in those turdbuckets was twos ... looks like they mounted stools in that one. No, that wasn't typical.
Hey!! Watch what you say about my R10's, otherwise I'll have to start saying something about the class of cars that came before the R10's.... : )
Wayne
The flats were the direct result of the braking and axle problems of prior years, and despite the graf problems, they were just plain grungy on their own. They suffered severe rot in the often unpainted cabs, you'd have pipes that would bust on the stands and other problems trying to get them to move. Perhaps the worst part of the R10's was the accumulation of steel dust in the breaker panels. You'd go to hit a breaker and get thrown across the cab by the jolt.
So I guess what I'm saying is that my view of the 10's is colored more by a perspective that buffs didn't get to experience. You haven't lived until you did a cut in a yard and have the bolster snap and have the body fall off the trucks. Some of them were THAT bad in 1970. :(
Wayne
My first experiences as a kid in the 50's were friendly motormen that would grant me HANDLE TIME on Saturdays for a stop or two headed north to 207th and it was GREAT. Alas, by the 70's, they'd literally become unmaintained junk. The graf didn't help the mood either. They were hellishly loud though, and you'd dare not try to close the windows to save your hearing as the filth was everywhere and it'd find you. :)
But man, in the 70's, they had really gotten to a sorry condition. A few folks I've met from here that worked them in the 80's actually LIKED working them which tells me that somewhere between my time and their time, maybe some maintenance had finally been done. I will say this though - when the 32's landed on the D, the B and the AA, they were REAL nice. Before the air conditioning and destruction of the 32's once proud looks.
This was a very exciting time for me, because up until I was 9 yrs old...we lived near West Farms Square and I only knew of IRT trains which I was quite happy with. Then we moved to the Grand Concourse. Well one day I was going downtown with my parents and I remember us going to the Tremont Ave IND station which I immediately found to be strange because this was my first time in an underground station with incandescent lighting. Well... our train (a S/B D approached the station and my eyes were wide open. The train was a R-42 consist. Remember until that point I had only seen/ridden IRT equipment. I immediately thought "Wow - this train looks like the one on Park Ave". Then of course I really like the ice-cold A/C and original blue interior. It just kept getting better as we travelled further downtown and I was discovering all of this different IND/BMT classes that I had never seen before.
Re: R-10 - I agree they were quite filthy. They were actually pretty clean once they their final coat of green paint, but by then I routinely passed them up to ride other stuff.
Wayne
When they first rebuilt the R10s, I could not believe the speed they were travelling. They seemed to be a little less noisier than the unrebuilt ones. Then after a couple of years, they started slowing down again, and became much louder than they were before they rebuilt them. It was really horrible. In my opinion, for whatever reason, the TA just did not take care of these cars-before or after rebuilding.
As for the R10's, I only got to ride them in their final years (in their great green scheme). I did get a taste of a few of them with grafitti and filth, just before they got cleaned up....they could probably then have rivaled the R16's...the cars everyone loves to hate.
But then again, this R7 felt the need to get a sex change to become an R10....so it obviously thought the R10's were "greener on the other side".....
Anything didn't work, you opened it, or closed it, or kicked it and away they went. The R10's with their SMEE added several layers of complexity that the old girls didn't have. You could often fix them yourself whereas with the newer cars, you HAD to call an RCI to move the pig. But like I said, most of my compatriots were only too glad to swap an interval with me and let me take out the Arnine so THEY didn't have to. :)
1575 is its own little story - only reason I remember that one so well is I'd see it in my consist every now and then and my heart would literally sink out of fear that some bozoid in the yard spotted me a real R10 ... 1575 probably had the longest rap sheet in the car barn - constantly breaking down for this and that ... it was a real troublemaker, and spent more time up on sawhorses than on trucks. Heh.
Arnines were truly an acquired taste - for me, they were bliss. But to most everybody else, they'd rather be keelhauled than have to run a set of them.
Well some things never change I guess, guess which car caused us to exit at Howard Beach....although I think one of the others had a brake problem also, but I think it was 1575 that put an end to the trip.
I swear, I've actually seen TMO's argue with gloves off as to what WAA would be done to get 1575 out of their freaking yard. Heh. Only reason why I remember that one since ANY motorman would notice that dog in their consist and KNOW that "if YOU laid it up in OUR yard, we're gonna burn ya boy" ... send it over THERE! RELAY!!! :)
Then again, the Sea Beach line was not part of the excursion route, so I feel better off being stranded at Howard Beach rather than any open cut station on the N line anyday, anytime.
Then they scrooched things. :-\
#3189 was removed in service around 1984, and was never a candidate to be part of the 110 GOH car fleet to be done with the dark green exterior. Instead, it became an R.C.I. Yard-School Car at Pitkin Yard on the Linden Boulevard end - Track 8, where it still resides today.
#3192 was a prototype inside Coney Island Yard in 1975 to have the R-10 car fleet rebuilt with an R-42 front and R-44 type interior with air-conditioning. The project was abandoned because MTA NYC Transit was determined it would have been too much of a financial cost of rebuilding an older car than the price of buying one new car, so #3192 was placed on the scrap heap in the fall of 1980.
The 12-inch diamater fans used on the R-10's plus R-12/14's and even R-7A #1575 were always stationery, and all I can say that the best they could do was circulate the air around them, and nothing more. In other words, no real direct coolness just like even the BMT Multi's and the Q-type cars on the Myrtle Avenue El once had too.
Granted, while I have been known on this SubTalk board for my knowledge of the R-10 car fleet, where many of the railfan community have known me as "Mr. R-10", I know that the cars themselves have had their own share of troubles in the basic and mechnical operation, plus their overall maintenance as well. In my all years in even riding them, there have been both good and bad days with the R-10's that I have experienced too.
But I will tell you this...the R-10's being on the "A" line during my younger years in this lifelong transit hobby is where it got me started in the first place. I make no regrets in my own personal choice with them as my all-time favorite NYC Transit subway car plus subway route at that. Let us just I have my own memories and appreciation with the R-10's for whatever they did to yours truly as an avid transit buff, and I do have my own, certain times with the fleet with no one will ever take away from me.
Let both the critics say and nay what they want on the R-10's themselves from their own point of view, and I do not mind it at that because I understand and take either the praise, indifference and/or criticism at best. Too bad, however as a rant of sorts, that R.P.C.-owned "museum" car #3184 (the other R-10 in existence) is just sitting there in Coney Island Yard doing absolutely nothing to this day as a static display, and it is that one car I am really eager to go inside one day in the near future.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Sometimes, out-of-service and retired subway cars could be used as other school cars, such as R-27 #8145 that is adjacent on track #9 to the R-10 at Pitkin Yard. Just recently, IRT R-26's #7770-71 are in Canarsie Yard in Brooklyn, and even R-16 #6452 has been used for the longest time in such the same capicity on the former play area of the former P.S. 248 in Brooklyn.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
> (the other R-10 in existence) is just sitting there in Coney
> Island Yard doing absolutely nothing
Yabbut at least it's had some TLC over the years...
(1993)
(2003)
However, #3184 has endured all of nature's elements it has faced as a "museum" car while being stored outdoors with no protection (i.e. the rain, dampness, snow and Coney Island salty air). Now, seeing your two 2003 photos plus Joe Testagroe's 2002 picture, the exterior paint on the car has looked worn out and faded based upon what I see in the images.
Also, #3184 seems to have streaks along the sides of the car, plus there is a brown stain that is coming from underneath one of the restored number plates. Even the ends of the car look very murky and muddy to yours truly.
All I can say that R.P.C. should have at least give #3184 a touch up now and then, and even the orange side stripes are fading out too. By the way, will someone tell R.P.C. to change the front roll signs on the car back to where it said "A" and "Lefferts Blvd." (or "207 Street") as a true representative of its past history when the car was first released from Coney Island shop nine years ago.
Hmmm...another modified wish to ponder on the status of #3184. If I can not get to go inside #3184 one day in the future, how about someone from R.P.C. (or closely associated to that organization) photograph the car's interior, and perhaps someday post it on this Subtalk board or this webpage?
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Back in 1980 when cracking R-46 trucks was causing an upheaval in car assignments, R-10's on the Brighton Exp. (D) was a unique one of a kind expierence. Also on the (F) Culver elevated where they never saw service. R-10's on the (E) had original rollsigns at that time. Since they didn't have WTC, they were signed up Hudson Terminal. The passengers were confused !
Bill "Newkirk"
DAY 2: July 5
Actually, here is a pic I took from Day 1 that I forgot to post:
What R-type is this? I really love this picture;-)
Anyways, I wake up and have a delicious breakfast at a Chinese pastry store (I forgot what the name of the place is, but I believe its near the corner of Canal and Pell St. Also, there was a Chase Bank across the street if that helps anyone remember what the place is called).
After breakfast, I walked towards the Canal St station to begin the second and final day of railfanning:
From here I decided to get some subway shirts and take more pictures of redbirds so I took another R142A 6 train to GCT (Is the 6 exclusively R142A now?). Anyways, I went to the Transit Store in GCT and picked up a 4 train and Canal Street shirt. Unfortunately, they ran out of the TSQ and 7 train t-shirts.
After this, I went down to the 7 platform and took the first train to TSQ.
Unfortunately it was another R62A. At TSQ, I once again waited for about 5-6 R62A trainsets to pass before a train of redbirds showed up. Unfortunately the train used the crossover before it entered TSQ so the lights did not go off when we left TSQ. I was gonna ride this all the way out to Main Street. At Main Street I took some pictures of the redbirds resting near the bumper blocks:
PICTURE 1
PICTURE 2
PICTURE 3
PICTURE 4
PICTURE 5
After this, I took another redbird trainset to Willets Point-Shea Stadium where I headed for Corona Yard and took some pics of the yard and Casey Stengel depot:
By the way, what kinda R-type is this car?
Redbirds and R62A
Two Redbirds side by side
Stengel Depot
Stengel Depot 2
A Bus-B-Que;-)
2 redbirds
Same shot, except with redbird in picture
After this, I boarded a Main St bound R62A 7 train, got off at Main, and toured the Main Street area. Surprisingly, there was alot of Chinese people in this neighborhood. Thanks to Ray (aznboy4305 from BusTalk), I found a shish ka bob stand and had a tasty snack.
After this I found this QSC Orion V and a NYC Bus near the stand:
QSC route Q66
NYC Bus Q48
After this, I headed to 74th/B'way on a R62A 7 train and tried to find Ray's old neighborhood. I took a Manhattan bound R46 R train to Steinway St and walked around there. It looks alot like Georgia Ave here in DC. After this, I got back to Steinway Street and rode an R46 R train to 59th St. While walking from the R platform to the IRT platform, I noticed how modern the fare control area is. From here I boarded another R142A 6 train and got off at 86th Street. Here I took an R62 4 train to 161 St/Yankee Sta. and boarded a Manhattan bound R68 D train:
I got off at the end of the line at 34th/Herald Sq and hoped to board a R40/40M/42 on the N,R,Q, or W. None showed up, in fact, the Q and W also used the wrong tracks. They were on the N/R tracks for some reason. I gave up my hunt for them and just boarded the next train, which was an R68 Q train. I got off at Canal Street to end the final day of railfanning:
Canal Street mosaic
After this I went around shopping in Chinatown with my family and saw two interesting things, a properly filled trash can and a smashed up NYPD cruiser, which I had no part in destroying:
And there you have it, my NYC fantrip. It was so much fun for me.
Wayne
You're still claiming that!?! That's the same thing you said here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=476727
...but as you can see here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=479199
...that is simply untrue.
The price label even said $8.00.
I will have to swing by there this week to check it out again.
Peace,
ANDEE
What they have done is remove the $8.00 price stickers. At the moment there are no price stickers. That means they can charge anything.
The next time I see Amy Hausman I going to have to remind her what happened the last time they started playing with prices and overpricing some items. This goes back to when the store was in the main area of the terminal just across from the information kiosk. Prices of some items were so ridiculous that they went unsold.
I also have a feeling that TA Asset Recovery is somehow getting involved. If you saw the prices of the Redbird items they had on the webpage, you know what I mean. Someone should tell them that they are not ebay.
Sometimes I think they just don't get it. They should be focusing on the main area of interest - US - the hardcore railfans, not the occasional visitor who is looking for a bit of nostolgia to take home as a souvenir.
When the Museum first opened (as the Transit Exhibit)back in 1976 you could buy number plates, roll signs, station signs at decent prices. I can tell you that those items sold quickly. Quite frankly I should have bought more of those back then.
Did you come up with that one your self, or have you been listening to Dave Sandler do traffic on the Mighty 1090 WBAL AM in Baltimore.
John
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K what the hell is going on
2003 Riverhead Packages Schedule
July 4 through September 1; Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays & Holidays
Long Island Rail Road - Express Bus
Take the LIRR to Ronkonkoma Station and board an Express Shuttle Bus to Riverhead. Please board the Express Bus on the Northwest side of the Ronkonkoma Station, adjacent to the taxi stand.
Express Bus Onboard rates available for customers without LIRR Riverhead Package tickets:
One Way $15/Round-Trip $20
Friday Going
Leave Penn Station 7:39 AM 9:16 AM 11:16 AM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 8:59 AM 10:37 AM 12:37 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 9:10 AM 11:08 AM 12:52 PM
Splish Splash* 9:40 AM 11:38 AM 1:22 PM
Tanger Outlets 9:57 AM 11:55 AM 1:39 PM
Atlantis 10:13 AM 12:11 PM 1:55 PM
Friday Return
Splish Splash* 11:38 AM 1:22 PM 3:10 PM 5:10 PM 7:00 PM
Tanger Outlets 11:55 AM 1:39 PM 3:27 PM 5:27 PM 7:17 PM
Atlantis 12:11 PM 1:55 PM 3:44 PM 5:44 PM
Tanger Outlets 2:12 PM 4:00 PM 6:00 PM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 12:41 PM 4:30 PM 7:48 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 1:11 PM 4:46 PM 7:58 PM
Arrive Penn Station 2:33 PM 6:08 PM 9:19 PM
Saturday, Sunday & Holiday Going
Leave Penn Station 7:14 AM 9:14 AM 11:14 AM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 8:38 AM 10:38 AM 12:38 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 8:49 AM 10:49 AM 12:49 PM
Splish Splash* 9:19 AM 11:19 AM 1:19 PM
Tanger Outlets 9:36 AM 11:36 AM 1:36 PM
Atlantis 9:52 AM 11:52 AM 1:52 PM
Saturday, Sunday & Holiday Returning
Splish Splash* 11:19 AM 1:19 PM 2:10 PM 5:10 PM 7:30 PM
Tanger Outlets 11:36 AM 1:36 PM 2:27 PM 5:27 PM 7:47 PM
Atlantis 11:52 AM 1:52 PM 2:44 PM 5:44 PM
Tanger Outlets 12:09 PM
3:00 PM 6:00 PM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 12:41 PM 3:41 PM 6:41 PM 8:30 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 12:43 PM 3:43 PM 6:43 PM 8:43 PM
Arrive Penn Station 2:04 PM 5:04 PM 8:04 PM 10:04 PM
* Hours of operation vary; please check Splish Splash Water Park prior to your trip
Hopefully if many people use this bus service, they will finally decide it may be a good idea to extend some kind of normalo serivce between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. A new station at Tanger wouldn't hurt either.
Won't be too long before we see $500 monthlies from Zone 1 to Zone 14.
I hear you. And this'll be good for workers going out there. I believe the bus is the first acknowledgment on the part of the LIRR of the potential "corridor-ization" of the route. Which has its good and bad points, but at least out to Riverhead it seems like a good target to reach for.
Remember also that the Turbo project was political backscratching for Supersteel after they pharked up the LIRR job (Al D'Amato once again), and reviews from folks I know who have ridden them have NOT been impressive. The seating ain't right, they have about half the capacity of a standard Amfleet train and they're not terribly comfortable either. However, Supersteel's making lots of money after their campaign contributions were cashed, and that's all that matters. :-\
I'm just wonder why NYC got the turbos way back when, long before they became a fixture for the empire corridor, long before NY State stuck it's nose in there. Say back in the early eighties, why the heck did they decide to stuff electrical junk into the power cars, when there was a preexsisting non-electrical powerplant design. I don't get why the Turbos didn't go to the Hiawatha, Shoreline East, California, or some other route, sans 3rd rail junk, while NYC went for some form of new dual mode DEMU or locomotive, more reliable than the aging FL9s.
Others:
- Pacific Northwest
- Calif. (San Fran to LA)
- Gulf Coast
- Florida (Tampa to Miami)
- Southeast (Wash to Atlanta)
- Chicago Hub
Since the N-E (Boston to Wash) existed it seemed a no brainer to extend it to Albany & Buffalo ... boy were they wrong.
In 2001 they made some further "Extentions":
- No. NE (Mass, ME & NY)
- Chicago (more spokes on the hub)
- Southeast (connect Southeast & Gulf Coast)
- Calif (alt way between San Fran & LA)
Why Turbos? You have to remember it was PC time
Ha, ha. More “tomorrow’s train on yesterday’s track” nonsense. Electrification? Rendered obsolete by diesel-electric, so self-contained propulsion was still the way to go.
Too bad, too, because these trains are reputably capable of over 150 mph. If you are gonna buy them, then use them at that speed. It’s kinda like buying a Ferrari in Germany and then not driving it on the Autobahn.
Now why were the RTL IIIs displayed at Chicago Union Station and Milwaukee Station if they were not to be used on the Hiawatha, is my question??
(BTW the earlier, even less practical UA Turboliner for NY-Boston service was also third-rail equipped)
Back to “TTOYT” yet again—this train, on top of having 171-mph capability, was equipped with a tilt suspension to permit faster operation through curves while keeping passengers’ equilibrium stable. VIA had the right idea by lengthening these trains, but the wrong idea by restricting them to a mere 100 mph. Had just a tad more investment been put into the infrastructure and signaling systems, the Turbotrain would have been a remarkable way to travel from GCT to Chicago, i.e. if it were permitted to travel at the speeds it was capable of.
Sounds of New York (1990)
Videorecording by Bill Freda Inc.
Producers, William Freda, Jr., Howard Grossman
Director, William Freda, Jr.
New York, NY : Cinema Guild
Castle Hill (1)
Donnell (1)
Edenwald (1)
Performing Arts Library (2)
Wakefield Branch (1)
Call # VC 784.463 S
but chances are it'll just be in a special video rack which is completely unorganized.
Yikes! People will still go to NJ or Rockland. NJT direct buses from PA 42nd street to the major malls in NJ run about $6-11 round trip. And to Palisades in Rockland county its probably $15 round trip w the MNRR/TZX combo. Still cheaper!
While Im glad bus service is now do able to Tanger, at those prices I cant afford to go there on my own anytime soon.
Long Island sucks! We have lousy malls, subpar transit, overpriced housing, and awful roads.
"Shop Tax Free - Tuesday, August 26 - Monday, September 1"
Well in NJ you can shop tax free ALL THE TIME on clothes. The more I think, a move to New Jersey me be in my future. :-0
With the shuttles to and from major spots on the east end, hopefully enough people will use them and it will ease up on some of that traffic we all know and love.
SO MOVE!!!!
I've lived on Long Island for all my 50 years and think it's a damn GREAT PLACE!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of Shirley, is the Synagogue still there, you know, the Shirley Temple?
I dunno, depends on what bar you go to:
SHIRLEY TEMPLE OF DOOM
Ingredients:
Drink Type: Mixed Drinks
Glass Type: Collins Glass
Ingredients:
fill With Lemon Lime soda
dash Grenadine
3 oz. Vodka
(I better run before rocks get thrown at me).
The places in New Jersey and Palisades in Rockland are just plain old retail malls (some better than others) with retail prices. Nobody in their right mind would travel from the city to Riverhead for another mall.
The question is whether or not the LIRR Tanger trip is competitive with Short Line's Woodbury Common bus which costs $35.
CG
Please don't. As a US taxpayer I'm already subsidizing your unemployed lifestyle. As a NJ taxpayer I don't want to subsidize it any further.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of which, I saw a similar thingie yesterday on the 1 but where half
the rollsign enclosure was exposed (light tubes showing) and half
of a 9 on the left side of the viewing area...
And I know what you're talking about in reference of the light bulbs showing off on one of the sign's.I've seen that train numerous time's already,I know it's a 22xx lead car.The crew at 240 obviously keep forgetting to fix it.
I think someone wanted to play with the rollsigns ;-). Seriously though I wouldn't expect the 13 to be on the front rolls.
Nor would you see me getting on that train. ;)
Mark
*********************************************************************
Today we take the alternate route.
Many of you have already heard, but those that haven’t, there was a huge fire in Riverdale, IL along the Chicago Sub and also along the parallel Metra Electric District University Park Sub. The bridges that span Metra and the CN over CSX Transportation’s B&O Chicago Terminal trackage burned late in the evening of Sunday, 22 June.
As it would happen, I operated the very last train across one of the freight side bridges and Conductor Tom Boggs and I spotted the fire in its early stages when only the Metra bridges were burning. We reported it to both Metra to get all their traffic stopped and to our Dispatcher to make him aware of a potential situation developing and to get the fire department notified. A CSX Trainmaster also observed the fire and was in communication with the Yardmaster at Markham to notify him of the problem as well. Apparently, the fire spread rapidly as the freight side of the bridges were also engulfed in flames in short order after we cleared the structure. Being that we hade 179 cars in our train and had to reduce to 25 MPH for Kensington, it is quite possible the bridge may have started to burn while the tail end of our train was still crossing it.
There are separate structures here on the CN and Metra sides, but apparently the fire didn’t seem to care. It managed to jump from one span to the next, and the next.
In any event, when all was said and done, the bridges were totally destroyed and no rail traffic of any type could be operated on any of them. These wooden structures which date back to the 1920’s became a charred mass of sticks with rail dangling above it. In the case of Chicago Sub track one, the structure was completely gone and just the rail was left dangling in mid air. As a result of all this, Metra has had to suspend commuter service on their University Park Sub between Riverdale (which is just south of the bridge) and the southern terminus of the line in University Park. Most of their equipment is trapped south of the bridge and there is no way to move it around the bridge as the only remaining connection to the CN Chicago Sub is at Kensington which, of course, is north of the bridge.
The 1500V DC overhead wire used to power the electric MU Highliner cars was also brought down around the bridge area. So in addition to the bridge being replaced, all of the wire and any catenaries that were damaged will also have to be replaced.
CN is also in a bind as none of their traffic can move north of the bridge as well. At the time of the fire there were several southbound trains in the picture; a 762 coal train at Kensington en route to Michigan, a 394 train coming from the BNSF also en route to Michigan pulling up behind 762, an empty 732 coal train in the yard at Fordham just north of 95th Street about ready to come south and head to Southern Illinois for loading, a 338 train coming by 39th Street heading for Markham and also Norfolk Southern trackage rights train 317 requesting to come onto the Chicago Sub at 95th Street. Under the normal plan 762 and 394 had to wait for us to clear as they were going to cross over from track one to track four at Kensington. 732 would be crossing over from track four to either one or two at Kensington. 338 en route to Markham was just caught up in the parade. 317 would also cross over from four to either one or two at Kensington and head south bypassing Markham and heading to points south. So because of this fire, there was immediately gridlock.
“Damn this traffic jam; hurts my motor to go so slow.”
When derailments, washouts, floods, fires, fires, landslides, wash outs, volcanoes, and the like occur, instead of just letting trains back up and wait until the line involved is reopened, arrangements are normally made with other railroads to detour trains around the problem location. In some cases these detours may route the train miles out of its way, but the detour route makes much better sense than having trains sitting for days or perhaps even weeks.
The American Association of Railroads has set a price on detours. While normal trackage rights charges between railroads are negotiated, detour rates are pre-determined to assure that one railroad doesn’t gouge another under trying times such as these. Gee hard to believe one road would do something like that to another, eh? This special rate excludes the cost of the required pilots. Pilots are also paid for by the detouring railroad covering all costs to get them into position and then back to where they need to tie up. This could include the costs of transportation, hotel and away from home meal expenses if required and any overtime incurred by the pilots as necessary. It may also cover the requirement for any other additional employees as needed to move these train.
Some railroads negotiate detour rates in advance and have them on file just in case something drastic should occur in certain locations like Chicago. The Grand Trunk Western and Indiana Harbor Belt negotiated such an agreement in 1978 to assure a readily available detour route along with rate and cost structure just in case something should occur. This agreement was put to the test after a huge derailment occurred on the Trunk in the Southern Chicago Suburb of Merrinette Park at 119th Street in 1987. This wreck wiped out both mains and had the Trunk detouring virtually all of their trains that operated west of Blue Island on GTW trackage for several days. As it would happen, I have a bunch of photos of that wreck as I went over and took a look at it after I got off work that morning.
Pilots are required whenever the Engineer is not familiar with and/or not qualified on a particular segment of railroad. The qualifications include rules, signals, physical characteristics and the like. Unlike driving along the highway, moving a train across railroad that is not familiar can lead to serious consequences. Not all rules on all railroads are the same; CN US Operating Rules have some differences from say NORAC and the General Code. Also the FRA requires us to have pilots under such circumstances. Even if it is on our home road, if it is a territory we are not familiar with, or that we have not operated over within a year, we must have a pilot. On any segment of track where timetable speed is in excess of 10 MPH, the pilot must also be a Certified Locomotive Engineer.
Now in the case of the detours we will be discussing here, the Indiana Harbor Belt and the Belt Railway of Chicago are the so-called “foreign roads” handling our trains. We are also using part of our own property with the Elsdon Sub of the former Grand Trunk Western. The portion of the Elsdon Sub we are using with my run is between Harvey and Blue Island Tower, about four or so miles of railroad. Now being that I am a former IC Engineer, I normally do not operate over the Elsdon Sub. Once, way back in my days at the IHB, I did operate over the Elsdon Sub between Blue Island Tower and Western Avenue, which is less than one and a half miles. And even then, that was just with the engines and done to run around a train we delivered to the old GTW Blue Island Yard located there.
So being that I really was not qualified and being that the one trip I did have was so many years ago, I needed a pilot on the Elsdon Sub. As it worked out, I had a pilot for two round trips on the Elsdon Sub and by proclamation was deemed qualified to go it alone Saturday the 28th. I was asked first though if I felt comfortable and could do so or needed a pilot for another trip. I believed I was good to go and told them such.
“I hereby proclaim you qualified!”
We are also using the Indiana Harbor Belt between Blue Island Tower and the connection to the Joliet Sub at CP Canal (Argo) about twelve miles. Now I know some of you are already saying “You used to work there, you should know this line. “ Tis true, I did and should. But, there has been a great deal of changes made to this line since I worked here last in 1996. Centralized traffic control was added between CP Francisco and CP Argo, several new control points were added, most of the old signals have been removed as well as a road crossing and a controlled siding was installed. Plus, it had been nearly seven years since I saw most of this railroad from the high iron side.
Bring on the pilots.
So now we will take you on our first detour trip across the IHB. We’ll also discuss aspects of some of the other trips as well because as you all know, nothing ever goes as smoothly as planned. And what goes smoothly seems to do so despite the plans not because of them.
Our first detour trip begins on 23 June. We were on duty at Glenn at 1600 hours and wound up departing there at 1835 hours. Our train today consists of engines GTW 5949 and IC 1021 with 67 loads, 56 empties, 9955 tons and 7392 feet of train. We would be operating out the south end of the yard (often referred to as the west end) and heading timetable direction south (compass west-southwest) towards CP (Control Point) Canal, the crossing and connection between the Joliet Sub and the IHB mains.
We will pull out onto Joliet Sub track two (the south track according to the compass but the east track according to timetable direction) at 47 Crossover and after doubling up and getting the permission to proceed south depart. 47 Crossover is a control point, part of the CTC system installed on the former GM&O last year. It is south of the original hand operated switches and quite the set up now. 40 MPH universal crossovers allow a train to crossover to and from either track in either direction or to enter and exit the south end of Glenn Yard.
There is a passenger station at Summit which is about half a mile south of 47 Crossover. Being there are Metra and Amtrak trains operating on this line, we have to watch the times for trains due to work this station. We must be certain to stay clear of the Summit platform. Both Metra and Amtrak will be using track one for their station work. We have to positively ascertain that all these trains involved have arrived and departed before we foul or block the platform.
I switched to channel 58-58 (160.980) to converse with the IHB West Dispatcher and try to get permission to enter his railroad. He had traffic to run first and could not handle us. Now being that the IHB could not handle us immediately, we stayed north of the Summit platform waiting until after Amtrak 304 (The Ann Rutledge from Kansas City) arrived and departed. He did his work and departed there at 1852. Being this would be the last train of the day required to work Summit, we could and then did pull down to the IHB connection switch just north of CP Canal at milepost 13.
During our wait at Summit, I had pulled out the trusty CORA guide (Chicago Operating Rules Association) book. This is a very handy item that is now required for all crews that operate over foreign lines in the Chicago Terminal. The CORA committee was formed to create a guide for all railroads and their employees to use. The CORA book was born from this work. Now any employee operating in the Chicago Terminal District (the area inside the circumference of the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Railway) need just to carry the CORA book instead of any and all rulebooks and timetables of any line other than their own they might be required to operate over in their tour of duty.
The CORA book has the rules, special instructions and maps of all the railroads in the Chicago area. There are separate sections for the NORAC and General Code of Operating Rules. The CSX, NS and CN US Operating Rules are located within the sections on their respective railroads. For the most part, just the rules in effect within Chicago Terminal on each respective railroad are included in the rules sections. Each railroad in the Chicago Terminal has its own section. The big drawback to this book is that it weighs a ton.
We pulled into the connection track at CP Canal and waited for permission from the IHB West Dispatcher to open up on their end of the railroad. We watched a westbound with the BNSF 4743 and an eastbound with the IHB 2920 (a former Illinois Central SD20) go before we were finally given permission to open up and enter the IHB number one track and head east at 1950 hours. My instructions were to pull up to CP Argo and the Argo yard office (which was once my headquarters in my Trainmaster days) and pick up the pilot there.
As we enter IHB main track number one, we are also at the very west end of the “old yard” at Argo. This is a three track yard basically used to store cars. The “new yard” is just across from us on the other side of number two main. It has six or seven tracks and is used for industry support. The sprawling Corn Products Corp. (CPC) plant is located just beyond the new yard and clearly visible. The CN, IHB and Belt Railway of Chicago (BRC) all have access to and service Corn Products. The Argo name comes of course, from one of the products produced by CPC, Argo Corn Starch.
I have a slow approach (yellow over red on a dwarf signal) that allows me to proceed through CP Argo and on up to CP 71st Street. The IHB uses the NORAC rule book and NORAC uses speed signals. However, they do have a few modifications to the NORAC version of the signals and these changes are qualified in the IHB Special Instructions. Speed signals tell you exactly how fast (or slow) to proceed based upon the indications displayed by them. >From a personal standpoint, I have always preferred the speed signals over the route signals used by the western roads (also referred to as the “General Code” roads), portions of the Norfolk Southern and on the former IC and CCP lines.
CP Argo has universal crossovers to allow crossover movements from either track in either direction, access to the B&O Extension Track, the new yard on the south side of the mains, the old yard on the north side of the mains, the inbound and outbound leads that connect to the old stock yard lead (also known as the Argo Oakley Industrial Track and the west connection to the BRC’s Clearing Yard. This connection is known as the Northwestern Lead.
When the pilots boarded (both an Engineer and Conductor, the crew off IHB belt job BP-12), we headed on east. I was not acquainted with the Engineer as he had only been working there for several months, but I knew the Conductor from my days at the Harbor.
As we roll east, we pass above an industrial line of the BRC that extends from Clearing Yard into Corn Products. I stopped at CP 71st Street to wait as the Conductor was brought up in a cab after lining all the switches back at CP Canal which are equipped with electric locks and are of the hand operated variety. CP 71st Street is the first change that I would encounter.
This entire set up used to be hand operated switches but was upgraded in the latter 90’s to a control point when this portion of the railroad was equipped with Centralized Traffic Control. There are power switches controlling the crossover switches between the mains, to the controlled siding and to the eastern connection to Clearing Yard, known as the Blue Island lead. The new configuration now allows for two trains to be able to crossover and connect between the IHB and BRC simultaneously. Being that CSX Transportation’s Bedford Park Intermodal Facility is located immediately south of the West Receiving Yard at Clearing, this allows for much timelier handling of trains required to use the Blue Island Lead to connect to and from the IHB and Clearing Yard or Bedford Park.
The controlled siding beginning/ending at 71st Street is all new since I left the Harbor. This was also built with the entire line upgrade as well. It extends from 71st Street to CP 87th Street, another new addition. At CP 71st Street we received a slow approach (red over red over flashing yellow) and were lined to proceed into the controlled siding. A westbound train was waiting on track number one while another was heading west on two. Once Tom was on board, we began our journey starting to roll again at 2028.
Being that I had operated this line so often in the past, I chose to run the train rather than have the pilot run it. All I really needed from him was information as to what and where all the new changes were.
So we head into the controlled siding and rolled on down to CP 87th Street. The slow approach signal tells me to proceed at slow speed (Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Slow speed, which is a speed not to exceed 15 MPH, is not to be exceeded until the entire train clears interlocking limits or spring switches, the medium speed applies. Medium speed is a speed not exceeding 30 MPH). At 87th we get a medium clear signal (red over green over red) and cross all the way over to track two. The medium clear allows me to proceed at medium speed through the turnouts and then resume normal speed once the train is all straight and clear of the interlocking limits. Normal speed on this portion of the IHB is 40 MPH. The medium clear also tells me that I will have a proceed signal at CP Ridge, the next signal I encounter.
We roll around Cordy Curve at 95th Street, the sight of a rear end collision last year between an IHB and CN train, and the signal at “The Ridge” comes into view. It displays a clear indication (green over red over red) so we are good to go to at least CP 123rd Street. While there will be a block signal in between the Ridge and 123rd, the worst aspect it should be displaying would be an approach (yellow over red) telling me to immediately reduce to 30 MPH and be prepared to stop.
CP Ridge is located in Chicago Ridge and is the crossing of and connection to Metra’s Southwest Service line. There is a single set of dual controlled power crossovers between the main tracks here and the connection to Metra in the northwest quadrant. This plant is controlled by the IHB West Dispatcher.
We stay on the clear signals all the way to CP123rd Street where received an approach indication. I will proceed preparing to stop, and as the signal at CP Francisco comes into view I see the three “red eyes” displaying a stop signal. On the way down to that stop signal I contact Blue Island Tower, called Grand Trunk Tower on the IHB. He tells us it will be a few minutes before he can handle us and I roll them to a stop at the home signal at 2103 hours.
While waiting I switch radio channels to IC 1 (72-72) and contact the Markham General Yardmaster to inform him of our presence at CP Francisco and his instructions when the time comes to head his way. He informs us that we will have to wait at Western Avenue on the Elsdon Sub for 343 to come down the hill and get the pilot off that train to guide us to Markham. My IHB pilots were qualified on the Elsdon Sub up to Western Avenue so there was no problem in getting there from here when we received a proceed signal.
Just seven short minutes later, we received a slow approach signal at CP Francisco and headed around the connection track towards the Elsdon Sub. The connection track is called track eight where the IHB ends and the GTW begins. Don’t ask as I have no idea why. In know the connection here along side of eight that goes towards Metra’s Rock Island District is called track nine.
We creep through the connection which is also the end of two tracks that parallel number two main called the long track and the industry track and head onto track eight. We cross the Cal Sag Channel on an iron bridge and encounter an approach signal just south (compass) of Broadway Avenue. The Dispatcher that controls the Elsdon Sub, known as TD-4 in Troy, MI, controls this signal and it can take us into the yard here or onto track one or two of the Elsdon Sub. We are now on former GTW territory.
We are crossed all the way over to track one and pull down to Western Avenue. In doing so we pass along side the former yard located between Broadway and Western Avenues. It is still called Blue Island Yard, but is no longer a going concern. It was closed about 1984 if memory serves correct. At one time business was interchanged to and from the Rock Island (later Iowa Interstate) and the IHB here. There were also several jobs that were assigned here to switch the yard and classify this business for trains that originated here. Way back in 1978 I came over here and applied for a job with the Trunk.
Today there are only four tracks remaining. The other handful of other tracks as well as the locomotive servicing track is long gone today. The yard office that occupied an area south of the overpass at 139th Street is also long removed. I do have a few pix from here in happier days when the yard was still open. Now this yard is used for storing cars and for a delivery that comes from Union Pacific everyday on a yard job that operates via the IHB from UP’s Proviso Yard in Melrose Park.
We roll around the big curve at the east end of the yard and pull up to a stop at Western Avenue at 2125 hours. There are block signals on both tracks here numbered 20.6 on track one and 20.8 on track two. The signal on our track displays an approach slow (yellow over yellow), but we cannot proceed here as there are eight zillion road crossings spaced what seems to be every city block apart, so that means we fit absolutely nowhere with our train east of here. In fact, we don’t fit between Broadway and here either. You can squeeze in about 6200 feet of train in between the signals at Western and Broadway. This means our train is hanging out across the plant at Broadway and the road crossing itself. This is a great way to make friends with our neighbors.
When we meet 343 here, we will swap pilots with the IHB crew getting on 343 and the GTW crew getting on our train. Tonight we learn the 510 Railport job would act as our hosts from here to Harvey. While waiting for them to arrive, Markham General calls and tells us that once we have exchanged pilots we can head towards Harvey.
343 arrives the great pilot transfer is made complete and at 2150 hours we begin to roll again towards Harvey. The General informs us there is a Switchtender on duty at the top of the hill at 157th Street to assist with all the switches. Everything up here is still all hand operated switches. While a project is ongoing to power up this plant and install signals to control it all, it is nowhere near complete and all switches are hand operated and under the jurisdiction of the Markham General Yardmaster.
This evening there is chaos at 157th as there are several trains ready to make moves including Amtrak 392. Switchtender DR (Dan) Johnson is running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to get switches lined and trains moving. 392 is nothing but in the way right now as they are awaiting the pilots of the soon to be arriving Amtrak 59. They cannot proceed from here until they have their pilots. Dan is backing him out of the way so that we can come out and head on into Markham.
“It’s madness I tell you, madness!”
When all was said and done, we finally get our turn and head on Thoroughfare 4 track to Hazel Crest dropping our pilots as we pass the Gateway office at the north end of Markham Yard.
And that was day one.
The following day coming north we picked up the same gang off the 510 Railport job for pilots at Markham. We had done our work already at Markham and now had some 8000 feet of train. The IHB restricts train length to a maximum of 7800 feet, but CN go them to grant an exemption for tonight’s train. This doesn’t happen very often.
When it was our turn, we worked our way down and around the southwest leg of the wye at 157th Street and back onto the Elsdon Sub. We pass under the Chicago Sub and then through the switch that connects to Elsdon Sub number two track. This plant is equipped with dual controlled power switches and signals controlled by the Dispatcher in Troy, MI known as “TD-4.” The drop on the southwest leg of the wye is a short and steep one.
Our journey takes us through Harvey and a connection to CSX Transportation’s Chicago Heights Sub. Up until just a few years ago this line crossed the Elsdon Sub at Harvey at grade. In fact, there was a tower here into the very early 90’s, although I believe it had been closed for several years before finally being torn down. When the two wyes were built at Harvey in the southeast quadrant , this CSX line was smack dab in the way. In exchange for a bunch of cash and trackage rights on the Elsdon Sub, a portion of this line was removed between Harvey and Dolton to allow for construction of the wyes. This connection has been powered up and protected with signals, all controlled by TD-4.
Another spot of note along the way is the former location of the Wyman-Gordon Company. I recall riding past this plant on the road along side of it many times as a kid. Forgings for various applications, including the space program were produced here. Several friends I’ve had over the years had family members that worked at Wyman-Gordon. Today though, the plant is long gone with virtually none of the old facility remaining. In Dixmoor we pass along side the south side of National Railway Equipment Co. NRE is well known within the industry for the repair and rebuilding of locomotives and also leasing locomotives. This facility is accessed by CSX via their Chicago Heights Sub and has no connection with the Elsdon Sub.
We pass under Interstate 57, cross Western Avenue observing an approach indication on signal 20.7; bring the train to a stop at Western to pick up our IHB pilots. This night the Engineer pilot would be an old workmate, Tom Kolwicz. Ironically, the first trip I ever made on the Harbor was with Tom. We exchanged pleasantries and began heading west again. We rolled around the bend and passed Blue Island Yard. We had a stop signal at Broadway Avenue and contact Blue Island Tower about the prospects of getting onto the IHB.
After a short delay we get the signal from TD-4 to crossover and head to track 8 towards the IHB. A few moments later Blue Island Tower calls to tell us to bring them on around as the Harbor can now handle us. We roll under the overhead for Metra’s Rock Island District, past an old trailer used by IHB and GTW crews in the days when IHB crews handled GTW trains over the Harbor, and begin crossing over between the mains and then onto track 8. We roll past the gate tower at the crossing. There is an employee in here 24/7 that manually operates the gates and flashers at Broadway Avenue.
After crossing Broadway Avenue we roll up the grade and across the Cal-Sag Channel. We drop our 510 Railport pilots off just west of the bridge, observe the slow approach signal on the pot and head on west through several more crossovers and onto the IHB for the trip west.
This trip is rather uneventful as well and we are essentially non-stop all the way to CP Canal, except for the brief stop at the Argo yard office to drop off our IHB pilots and head on down to CP Canal.
An observation about the complex area around Broadway Avenue; there are four railroads here, Metra’s Rock Island District which passes above all the other lines, the CSX Blue Island Sub, the IHB and the Elsdon Sub. There are also connections between the IHB and CSX, the IHB and CN, the IHB and Rock Island District. In addition to the previously mentioned railroads, the Iowa Interstate and Chicago Rail Link also use some of the trackage through here. And of the four railroads here at this important junction, I have operated trains on all of them during the course of my career while working for four different railroads; Wisconsin Central, Metra, IHB and now CN.
Over the course of the next few trips over the IHB and Elsdon Sub, the gloss did wear off rather quickly and delays en route have become common. Early in the morning on Monday the 30th we got hammered big time at Broadway. This was the day it was proclaimed I was again qualified on the IHB and we were going it alone so to speak. After an extended stay the IHB West Dispatcher decided they could not take our train as the sand in our hours of service glass was getting low and they had lots of trains to run. During this extended wait, we had Western Avenue blocked while it was decided whether we would stay or go.
“Should I stay or should I go.”
It was finally decided that we would not be going anywhere. TD-4 instructed us to yard the head end of our train in the old Blue Island Yard and clear up Western Avenue. After waiting for an eastbound 766 coal train to pass, we got the signal to make our move. After several minutes of aggravation with Blue Island Tower, we finally got them to answer and got the signal on number 8 track toward the IHB Industry Track at CP Francisco for head room so we could clear up the signal at Broadway and have TD-4 line us into Blue Island Yard.
When all was said and done, the head thirty-three cars and both of our engines were tied up in track three at the old Blue Island Yard and we finally got a cab and headed home.
I did manage to make two trips across the Harbor alone though. I have learned this evening that they have our route reopened and tomorrow (Thursday) we will be operating over our own line across Chicago. Sure, just when I learned the detour route.
I am going to attempt to send a couple of scans under a separate mailing that show the layout around CP Francisco and Broadway. For those that read this on the Illiana and Diesel Locomotive lists, I will try to place these scans in the files sections for your viewing pleasure.
On a sad note; Arvid Cook, the Engineer that founded and nurtured the Illinois Central Santa Claus train for so many years passed away last Friday. I hope you will all join me in extending sympathies to his family and friends. May he rest in peace.
One final note, for my readers in the United States, a safe and healthy Independence Day to you all. Be sure to display Old Glory as part of your celebration.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Yeah, I'm still around; even though you haven't seen me post in awhile. I had the opportunity on Monday to do some railfanning, so I thought I would share.
After seeing the Yankees beat the Red Sox, I took a #4 (R62) train downtown to 125th Street. I then transferred to the #6, and continued downtown on an R142A until GCT. I transferred to the #7, and got a redbird local. While manning the railfan window the entire time, I took the redbird to 111th Street. I crossed over, and got another redbird back to 74th Street. I went downstairs to the Roosevelt station, and caught an E train to 23rd Street-Ely Ave. My car was not jammed during the rush hour, since I chose to sweat in an un-air conditioned environment. From Ely Ave I took the people mover (yes, they were both working and going in the peak direction) to Court Square and caught the G to Greenpoint Avenue, and from there I had a nice evening with some relatives.
I hope all subtalkers had a wonderful holiday weekend, and I wish all those near mass transit some good railfanning times this summer!
-Nick
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd be shocked if the TA was paid for those.
Peace,
ANDEE
(forget Newt Gingrich cheating on three wives)
Aggggh. Better call it a night or we all know where I'm headed. Weapons of mass destruction? Oh I wish I could be like that the way I'm honked off now - alas, live upstate and despite the nasty heat and humididity, I'll take a nap rather than get even MORE worked up about this, but man ... Unca Selkirk is HONKED. Not that the frigging republicans care - they didn't get laid last night, so damned well nobody ELSE is gonna EITHER ... that's what impeachments are all about - trashing the ECONOMY so only WorldCon (excuse me, "MCI now") and EnRon (esxcuse me, KEYSPAN) get over. Just WAIT until you get your electric bill, FERC just allowed them to recover their costs which are now 300% of what the were. Oh, let's nuke California Governor Gray Davis, it's HIS fault that NYC's rates ... oh nevermind, vote for the Commander in Cheap ... Bush SAVED the world. Nevermind. :(
Its a shame the TA does this. This guy brightened up the atmosphere a little for the TAs customers, something he didn't have to do. Also it promotes the anti-TA attitutde within the ranks of employees.
Nope, FUN is banished, the HUMANITY of the system shall be trodden underfoot in the name of the mighty Ashcroft. Life is SUPPOSED to suck and by ghod, republicans are there to PROVE it. Slick Willie got some nookie, republicans can't. Aggggh. :(
Bottom line though, the GOP won't be happy until EVERYBODY has as much zest in life as Strom or Ronnie raygun. Happiness is a forbidden thought, do NOT share your joy of life with ANYONE or we'll GET you. :(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Always the "monsters under the bed".
Americans get the government they deserve.
Keep electing know-nothing state governors to the White House (take note: The last member of the United States Senate elected to the Presidency was (drum roll) John F. Kennedy!!!) and you get a Chief Executive who needs 18 months to fully understand how the federal political establishment works. They go from being a big fish in a small pond to a liitle fish in a very big lake.
On Topic part: Here in Baltimore we have a transit authority that has no idea what to do next. It lurches from one crisis to another. Mismanaged bus system, no vision at all and a rail system that has tracks and cars but cannot handle heavy loads.
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
But, the real reason is to minimize the amount of light that enters the T/Os cab when the train is in a tunnel.
Peace,
ANDEE
But seriously, I saw a TV show once about South Africa's Blue Train, a luxury land cruise line. Every passenger compartment had a TV set, and one channel was a closed circuit feed from a camera at the nose of the train.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
If they wanted to stop you from looking at the T/O, there would be NO window at all.
For example, try driving an automobile at night with the interior light on.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why is is, ever time you post you have to say it was to "dance tango". WHO CARES?
Am I correct?
Michael
Washington, DC
I understand that on MNRR you only need to qualify for one division (Hudson, Harlem or NH) but on the LIRR you have to know the whole RR.
Out here , you only need to know your division and you only need to know it in one direction. Mandan to Glendive is your segment, East of Mandan is a Fargo job, not a Mandan job. (They used to be 100 mile jobs, but now they are all 200 mile jobs.)
And who gives a rats posterior appendage what the line looks like in Texas, eh?
A typical LIRR job might be Babylon-NYP-PortJeff-Nyp-Babylon
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2764.html
direct to the photos
http://public.fotki.com/rudayday/flushing_g/
I never saw this one mentioned here before (field trip anyone?)
I'm game!
As long as the acquisition is limited, I don't think this will be a problem. In fact, NIMBY opposition continues to be muted. I think people will understand that alternative users of the the money will latch onto any local opposition to call for more "planning" and "study."
Most successful opposition to eminent domain has been on the public use question -- displacing one form of development for another. This is an actual public use.
Mark
Station entrances and vent towers, 2-3 parcels per station according to the article. Some could be easements -- taking part of a building for a stairway out.
Most NIMBY pretests in NYC are fabricated by advocacy groups who are supported by very few people and local politicians looking for kickbacks
Real estate valuation is a long term investment. More convient transportation increases the attractiveness of the properties
It is difficult to imagine property values on Second Avenue south of 96th Street going any higher. The actual question is the reverse -- will the increasingly hellish commute on the Lex LOWER property values, as people are less willing to live there? I believe the SAS would allow property values and development to keep going in the direction they have been going -- higher and higher.
Sure there will need to be some condemnations, and a few people will lose their businesses. But it will be tiny compared to virtually any other public improvement of this size.
I think the MTA is being very careful to minimize the impact. For example, they deliberately rejected the shallow Chrystie option because of the assumed negative impact on the neighborhood.
That truly is a shame. I was hoping that they would keep the shallow Christie option available so that they could build switches allowing 2nd av trains to use the manhattan bridge. If they could at least build a ramp up, that would be great.
Which do you prefer: a SAS that gets built deep, or one that would get built shallow except would be delayed by 50 years of community opposition?
: )
Mark
(Well, not all of them are missing location data, some of them have locations in the Notes: field. Ignore those!).
This one looks like survey info they were using to plan the SF loop and Joralemon St tubes (IRT Lex to Brooklyn).
BTW, do you want the suggestions here or in feedback?
Also what info would you like us to give on the diagrams? or is it they're thrown in there by an automated script and you really don't anything on them?
And I can't post them any bigger without going back and rescanning. You could buy a copy of the book they came from if you need more detail.
--Mark
It looks to be the White Plains Road line (I agree with you Mark)
somewhere south of Gun Hill Road.
In resizing the caption for 79 St looks distorted, so it actually looks like a 76. So there is a 76 Street station just the tileworkers installed the sixes upside-down!!
:-P
These look like Freeman St judging from the signal #s and the structure on the N/E of the N/B platform.
Actually there's one pic of an R-1 supposedly in Queens Plaza IND but actually in Queensboro Plaza North side...
8th Avenue on the L. (img_3658.jpg)
Antoher at 8th Avenue (img_3624.jpg)
80 Street (img_5444.jpg)
That's all I can get
south of Fordham Road on 3rd ave el
125th st/Lexington Ave IRT
Thanks it was driving me nuts as I recognized the pale green tile and the lack of light near the upper part of the wall.
I think this is at New utrect av
I dunno about that. the buildings and wall don't match.
- img_6459: just north of Brighton Beach
- img_7171: near Fordham Rd. on the 3rd Ave el (guessing south)
- img_3206: South of Dyre Ave.
- img_2298: Definatley 160th St.
- img_2283: Crescent Street
- img 2252: 111th Street
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4499.jpg
--Mark
Two thousand zero zero party over oops out of time :)
--Mark
--Mark
Something about freeing somebody.
The last word appears to be "unfair." It's probably related to some sort of labor action.
--Mark
--Mark
Ok zoomed in with a different app. ---- -- Free Unfair. Still no clue what the other 2 are.
-Dave
--Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5463.jpg
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Since these photo notes mention Mahattan Valley viaduct, they should be near 125 Street/Broadway Station.
Chaohwa
9th Ave, upper levelWest End Line
If it was North Conduit & Pitkin ... first I don't know the street was every configured like that there, and what is the third crossing street (without the el) in the right foreground?
What other intersection could possibly have those parkway-style lights?
The fact that we have C-types, and the appearance of the Kings County-style structure stromgly argue that it is on Pitkin Avenue. I've stated my problem with it being Conduit, and frankly I have no more ideas at this point. Maybe in the morning I will have an inspiration. :)
It can't be Conduit & Pitkin; there never was an el there. I'm going to second Conduit, Euclid, and Liberty, looking southeast from Conduit; the Pitkin el turned north at Euclid and east onto Liberty, so the station at left would be Crescent St, and the el-less street at lower right would be Liberty. The el, at right, is making its turn onto Euclid from Liberty.
The 1910 track map shows Crescent Street as side platform.
I think img_6600.jpg is of the now defunct and demolished Fulton St. el at the 3-way intersection of Conduit Blvd and Euclid and Liberty Avenues. I think the view is roughly southeast on Conduit. The T or Y shaped streetlights in the image are on Conduit, and are like the ones I've seen on Conduit about 36 years ago. This would make the station visible at upper left Crescent St. which makes sense because
Crescent is one block east of Euclid Avenue. The ad on the building
at mid-left edge says "corner Liberty Avenue" which would be right
there if I am correct, and seems like more than a coincidence. The
light el construction is like the el construction I've seen in other
images of the BMT Fulton St. el. "Karl B" please comment.
Have you looked at and pondered BMT C type el car img_7981.jpg ? I
think it might be the Fulton el on Euclid between Pitkin and Liberty
Avenues, but I have no proof from what's visible in the photo, and my
hunch on this one is nowhere near as strong as the one for img_6600.jpg.
img_2561 - B. 60th St-Straiton Ave.
img_24570 - B. 90th St-Holland
This is also Hewes street from the opposite direction (note buildings are the same, and you can see the Willy in the backround.
This can be narrowed to either Central or Knickerbocker Ave. (Maybe someone can take it one step further). The M line has a trackway for a third track, but there is no track anymore. (It can't be any of the Jamaica stations as there is no trackway, just a space), and of course Broadway always had a track, so that only leaves Central or Knickerbocker.
This and this are at the same location, so if we get one, then we have the other. It's got to be the Broadway el (or possibly the Fulton El). Can those cars fit on one of the Bronx IRT els (since apparently it was a fantrip), because then I don't have a chance, if we can rule that out, and that it's not the no gone Fulton El, I can probably place it at one of the Broadway el stations by that building in the backround, although, so many buildings are now missing from along the Broadway El.
I don't know why we assume Jamaica el. There was no regular 'C' type service there. I would assume Liberty Avenue el where there are plenty of stations that look like that with a center track.
subfan
Take this photo:
This one is labeled "Flushing Avenue" and thankfully it is because if this was one of the unknown locations, we'd all be scratching our heads trying to figure out where this unique theatre building is, but it would be hard because Woodhull Hospital now occupies it's site. (although I do recognize the still standing white building behind it with the arched windows).
Back to the photo below. Chauncey and Lorimer are both stations both had a considerable amount of it's surrounding old neighborhood buildings removed to build apartment complexes. But then again it could be any of the stations along Broadway and just that one building had been removed. So unless someone can identify that "torn-down" building, or someone can identify it on Fulton Street facing where the el used to be, I guess it will remain a mystery:
Its now an HSBC. I was thinking that also, but wasn't too sure about it.
img_17503.jpg & img_17504.jpg
These are definitely Knickerbocker, I'd know that ugly building anywhere:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6631.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6637.jpg
These can all be narrowed to the M-Myrtle line at Knickerbocker or Central because of the trackway mentioned in my other post:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6730.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6636.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6634.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6642.jpg
Jimmy
I will have more locations tommorrow, but I have to check them out first. I cannot say the nearest station name unless I am POSITIVELY sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
img_24364: #3067 @ 104th Street-Oxford Avenue
img_2383: #3002 @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue
img_2400: #3025 @ 80th Street-Hudson Street
img_2428: #3081 @ 36th Street BMT Yard
img_2436: #3094 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
img_2460: #3141 @ Concourse Yard
img_2583: #3342 @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue
img_2468: #3164 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
img_2494: #3210 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
img_2589: #3100 @ 80th Street-Hudson Street, NOT @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue as stated on the R-10 car page.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
However, img_24357.jpg lists the R-10 car number (seen in the aqua blue and white striped paint scheme) in the photo @ 80th Street-Hudson Street as #3381. I believe that is an error because the highest road car number built of the fleet was #3349, but the station location as depicted is correct.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
img_2885.jpg: R-15 #5999 @ Simpson Street [IRT #2/#5]
img_2855.jpg: R-15 #5954 @ Intervale Avenue-163rd Street [IRT #2/#5]
img_2870.jpg: R-15 #5980, BRAND NEW @ Stillwell - Sea Beach platform
img_2898.jpg: R-15 #6230 @ E. Tremont Av.-W. Farms Square [IRT #2/#5]
img_2892.jpg: R-15 #6222 leaving 170th Street-Jerome Avenue [IRT #4]
And I will throw in an R-1/9 series image as well...
img_1795.jpg: R-1 #173 (alcohol spray train) @ Kings H'way-Brighton.
Now, the R-10 fleet corrections I am offering, and that shall be all on this thread from my own part...
img_2400.jpg: R-10 #3025 @ 88th Street-Boyd Avenue, NOT 80th Street-Hudson Street as I stated in my original message. I personally made some very detailed differences between the two locations on this web page and in my personal photo collection afterward to finally determine the rightful and most accurate location, so I stand now corrected on this matter with deep regret on the error.
img_2412.jpg & img_2413.jpg: The actual R-10 car number in both interior photos I had originally taken was #3043, and NOT #3243. The 110 GOH cars done in green were of the Westinghouse electrical and control type taken from the original road car numbered #2950-#2974, #3000-#3049 and #3100-#3224 series.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Image 4979 (R32 delivery). Looks close at the third rail, that shot is at the New York Central's Mott Haven coach yard, before the cars made their demo trip into Grand Central. (I went to high school right next to this yard, got all too many lumps on the head from very accurately launched erasers, which looking sidewalks out of the classroom toward the tracks!!
Image 24537 is also at NYC Mott Haven Yard.
Image 4730 is on board a carfloat (DUH!) as it is being docked at the LIRR LIC Yard. There are also photos of this particular car coming back onto solid rails-on-ground in a couple of the LIRR calendars from the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chaprter-NRHS.
Sorry I couldn't help with more....but it is a challenge!!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4214.jpg
The only clue here is the trees, and the lack of buildings. The only place on the Flushing Line I recall like this (where there is a 3-track local platform) is 52nd St-Lincoln Avenue.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24375.jpg
Looks like the Culver Line. I'm pretty sure it's not Avenue I...may be Ditmas.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3376.jpg
Looks like 241 St-Wakefield, White Plains Road line - judging by the #2 sign. If it's misplaced, then it could be Pelham Bay Pk or Woodlawn, but it's definitely not 242/Bway.
It does
subfan
I'm not sure this is important, since image 6713 is evidently a builders photo, but for what it's worth the shot was almost certainly taken at the Pullman-Standard plant in Chicago, Illinois. That's where the "Green Hornet" was built (as opposed to all of the P-S PCC streetcars, which were built in the ex-Osgood-Bradley plant in Worcester, Mass).
Frank Hicks
God, I miss the city's largest mezzanine. Can't wait for next summer.
The list of unknown locations on these pictures is slowly dwindling.
Next Monday, pictures on the Sea Beach line and a final say on that R11 at either Cortelyou or BeverlEY road that I was no sure on.
Image 6495 looks like BMT Canarsie at either 1st or 3rd Avenue. I think there's a positively identified image just like it on your site
(looks like it was from the same shoot, a few seconds away) but with-
out the two people on the platform in the foreground.
Image 6729 is Fresh Pond Yard. The giveaway is the backs of the six-
family houses visible in the upper left corner, which are visible in
many other images of the Fresh Pond Yard. I've seen the backs of those
houses most of my life, riding the M train.
Image 6591 is somewhere over Pitkin Avenue on the Fulton El. The clue
is the building visible just to the left of the vanishing point. It's
probably PS 159, on the north side of Pitkin between Crescent and
Hemlock Streets. One can see this building loom progressively larger
on the horizon as one looks through images of the Fulton el over
Pitkin, starting with 6591 (which I suppose is either Hinsdale, Penn-
sylvania or Van Siclen) and progressing eastward to Linwood, Montauk and Chestnut. Recall that east of Chestnut, the Fulton el turned north-north west off Pitkin onto Euclid, then to Liberty, then turned east north east onto Liberty. Once over Liberty (like at Crescent St.) one no longer sees "probably PS 159" looming on the horizon, in
the Fulton El images.
I worked out the above when I studied the Fulton el images closely in
late June 2002. I will check and see if I have any more info on this.
I will post it next Monday (the 14th) if I do.
Avenue U
Bay Parkway I almost had my leg swallowed alive by a bouncing stair that was going to give way any second at the Avenue O side.
Kings Highway
20th Avenue
That's it, peeling paint, bad stations, ho hum.
Next week: Finally, the B110 issue with me getting a chance to ride it. Look for that in Bustalk.
My rides:
B8 NF 818
N R40 4435
N R40 4296
Well...the Sea Beach has the Brighton beat when it comes to daylight shadow play in the cars. All those mini-tunnels, on a sunny day...man, it's almost like strobe lights. Or early motion pictures. It's a soothing effect; gives the rider a simple yet accurate feeling of "briskly moving along". A lot of that is probably subconcious and subliminal. But I like the dark-bright-dark-bright-dark-bright visual syncopation of the ride. On the Brighton this effect is for a much shorter duration. Now obviously, this is not a real quantifiable "benefit" of the Sea Beach. Like the line itself though, its value is a subtle thing but worthy of appreciation. I really gotta take a video of this, from say Kings Hwy to 8th Ave.
Unidentified: img_7248.jpg > Compare to img_7317.jpg
1000% sure the unidentified pic is Concourse Yard with Jerome Av in the background. In fact, if you look closely, you'll see a #4 train on the elevated tracks. That and the odd shaped chimney with a Citicorp Centre-type slant matches in both photos.
Unidentified: img_2639.jpg > Compare to img_5593.jpg
Cortelyou Road comes to mind, the overhead girders supporting the fare control area match. It eliminates Beverly Road since it is a curved station, and eliminates the Sea Beach line since overhead passages are supported by concrete walls except at 8 Av and Fort Hamilton Pkwy.....which are definitely not in the unidentified pic.
Tried my best.
Is labeled "Bay Parkway (BMT Sea Beach)"
Definitely not Sea Beach! (It's elevated) and can't be Bay Parkway because too many buildings behind station.
(22nd Ave / Bay Pkwy is besides a cemetery and has a shorter overhang)
By the location of the of the stairs, and the partial sign that says "Avenue" could either be Avenue I on the Culver line or Avenue P.
-Larry
Definitely ain't Sea Beach though.
It's probable that the cemetery is there, but the buildings behind it create an optical illusion.
Avenue U on the N line. Just look at the houses!
What bothers me is that it is in the name of nothing at all.
WHY!?
(This rant is referring to the article that came out in the NY Times today. The link is here. HERE
Nothing bad happened. He was being responsible. I am sick of people who work for the MTA carrying out the letter of the law to the Nth degree for its own sake. It's not "The MTA's" fault. It's the fault of the spineless human being who carries out the order. And in this case, it is the station supervisor.
I believe that we, the viewing and appreciative public, should make our voices heard on the matter. In fact, I believe we should give that station supervisor a hard time. As hard of a time as we can. We should make it more difficult for him/her to carry out the letter of the law when it is for no apparent reason, than otherwise. On a very small scale, I find their actions to be outrageous. Why? Because it is people like Mr. Poem who make their corner of New York City, New York City. And we are having the character and charm of that little corner of our great city taken away from us. And I believe it is representative of the potential for much of what our city has become over the years to be chipped away at the edges. How much will we lose?
I belive that the phone number of the station supervisor is available on the wall in the station, by mandate of the same stupid rules that are silencing something beautiful in a sea of grey. I will get that phone number. I plan to call and voice my personal outrage. I hope that anybody here, who feels the same way will do the same. I will post that phone number in this thread as soon as I get it. If someone happens to use High Street, I would appreciate it, if you could jot it down and post it here, if you get to it before I do.
-Andrew Merelis
Resident of New York City
Owner of Monthly Metrocard
(don't mind me, Unca Selkirk got his foreclosure notice today) ... I want to KILL anyone registered republican, and if I'm out of a home, might as well do that in a hail of bullets. :(
Really, well rest assured that your EXCELLENT PRODUCT has gone no further than this machine.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm going to close off my part in this thread here and just say that the current regime has destroyed the internet upon which I make my living by failing to bring law and order to it - the SPAM problem in particular - anyone ever wonder where all that spam comes from? HIJACKED PERSONAL machines whose owners are on cable modems or DSL and got literally hijacked. The spammers are criminal gangs in Argentina and the Netherlands who use the machines of innocent people to send along their p*nis pill ads. That BOClean thingy we make detects and stops the hijacking along with other malware. But you'd THINK that these criminal gangs would be stopped. Instead, the administration is listening to the Direct Mailers Assn and about to present a spam bill that would LEGALIZE these hijackings. But I won't go any further off topic, we have the solution, very few people are interested. Until their ISP knocks them off for all the spam going through their machines. :(
And as to the house, we're talking to a foreign government that might "take us in." :)
What can you expect from the Napster generation? :-)
Tom
There's going to be some rude awakenings coming soon in that reality though - AOL/TW and others are about to do their revenge.
Aren't those tech jobs slowly being outsourced overseas and to workers on special permits (H1-B).
There's going to be some rude awakenings coming soon in that reality though - AOL/TW and others are about to do their revenge.
Are you referring to how RIAA is going to round up P2P users, sue them in court for large amounts of money, and placing music piracy back into the hands of the guy on the street? I guess I won't need a high-speed ISP anytime soon. But then, there's Freenet. :-P
BTW, which foreign government will take you? :-D
---
And as to the house, we're talking to a foreign government that might "take us in." :)
---
If the foreign government you're speaking with is the same one I'm thinking about right now, let me know if there's anything I can help you with. Good luck!
-Robert King
As to the "foreign government," indeed it does look like my home will end up in the hands of foreign financiers at a pretty righteous rate and I'm EVER so grateful to be out from under a really chitty deal. The 11% interest rate to a Texas bank was a major reason for the problems. 4% is MUCH better. As always, us upstaters are grateful to the nation that treats us like the friendly neighbors we've been for years. :)
(in case anybody wonders why I'm off on this, republicans have just about put me out of a home, and foaming at mouth about the Supreme Court allowing gays to be terrorists according to GOP radio) ... if EVER there was anything to fear, it's the current regime that's putting us ALL out of a home and a job. But hey, the morons who PUT us in this situation are doing better than ever at the bank. Agggh.
Curious how that Marine in South Carolina had a mystery car wreck on his way to talk to reporters about the "staged rescue" of Jessica Lynch and how it was BS ... ah well, just like those Arkansas State troopers who saw Bubba off republicans, here we are with a CLINTON STYLE mystery ... but man, after what showed up at my door this morning, after the economy being SO bad for our company that I ain't had a paycheck in WEEKS, well ... PHARK YOU republicans ... government contracts UNPAID are the reason why I'm in this mess, about to be dispossessed.
But hey, WORLDCON'S back in the books and selling stocks. I owned K-Mart and others, bankrupt and so am I now ... MY investments were thrown away with blessings of the GOP. Sieg Shrub. Bend for the Taliban, our "leader" wants to outDO them. :(
Hail to the THIEF.
Selkirk, you've lost your mind. You have no clue as to what Republicans are.
So yeah, be a dittohead, you can go to hell with the rest of them. No PERSONAL offense intended, but if you're a republican, PHUCK YOU.
This "silencing" may be regrettable but is scarcely unique to the MTA. Would you talk critically of your employer in a public forum?
Not anymore. :(
PLEASE, take your head out of your ass and WAKE UP to the facts. Only 6 firehouses were closed in NYC this year.
Peace,
ANDEE
I couldn't agree more - the average middle-class taxpayer gets the shaft from both!!
I'm one ANGRY fugger right now. Ya work 7 days a week, 16 hours a day and STILL nobody has money to buy your hard work. ONLY in America. The *REST* of the world still HAS an econolmy, but our GOP morons have pissed them all off, so NOBODY in a foreign land is buying ANYTHING American, not even Canadians. :(
Sieg Heil, shrub. :(
American and Canadian relations aren't as good as they were, that's for sure. A good chunk of it is due to our bumbling Prime Minister but he certainly isn't entirely at fault. It's doubly worse for you guys because there are a lot of Americans who at the same time adamantly refuse to do business with the rest of the world, putting everybody off... I wrote about that a bit further down.
-Robert King
Meanwhile, the global economy goes away with remarkable speed and eventually the smarmy types who think everything's nifto cool keen will find themselves out of a job too. Now that they're off the hook, maybe WorldCon is hiring. Enron's about to stage a comeback too. :)
Consider eBay auctions. More and more of them have 'Will ship to USA only' selected and an increasing number of sellers are writing long diatribes about it in their discriptive text. Consider this example, which is quite mild compared to some I've seen:
---
Unless otherwise specified above shipping will be via United States Postal Services (USPS) Priority Mail. All items will be shipped with insurance and with USPS Delivery Confirmation. Shipping will be completed within 10 days of receipt of your payment. We usually ship the Saturday after we receive your payment. We will only ship to the USA, period.
---
I'd have quoted one of the better ones I've seen but that was conveniently at hand because it was from an auction that I had to have a friend who lives in the United States place a bid for me. My friend had to pay the seller and have the item shipped to his place. I have to reimburse my friend and have him ship the damn thing for me. Just last night, I was on the phone with the friend, talking him through a quick test run of a piece of electronics to find out if it worked so we'd know whether or not to leave the seller positive feedback. It's a complete pain in the ass and I'd be stuck if I didn't have that friend in the states. If Americans don't want to do business with me, that's fine; if I can't source things locally, I'll turn to Europe instead.
Sometimes it works the other way around: foreigners can't do business with Americans because it's the Americans who don't want them to.
-Robert King
Either way, unless you're talking about model subway cars this is way off topic.
I am the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire, and 99% of the copies are mailed under our bulk permit.
However, 3 issues are sent to members oustside the US (2 in Canada and one in the Netherlands) and by the USPS regs must be sent Air Mail.
Same reg applies to packages, and by weight that runs into a big charge.
Why?
Because the postage rates are outrageous. And that alone scares off the bidders. When you are selling a model that's worth ten bucks, and it costs $13.00 to ship it to, say, Great Britain, you think people are going to want to bid on it? I can send the same item Priority Mail for $3.95 here in the USA....and about the same to Canada.
The international issue works in reverse too. I have had trouble purchasing maps from Canadian sources that didn't take credit cards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You were had by your greedy banker. I can understand a $15.00 charge to trace a check on some small Bolivian bank, but for a Canadian Postal Money Order? They know, or should have known with one telephone call where it should be routed for collection.
Tom
Next time, you'll know what to do.
Next time, you'll know what to do.
He did get US funds. And the bank was demanding a commission of $15, which is not small.
Some banks give you a break if you have enough money on deposit with them.
I do not recall whether Canadian government paper (postal money order) can be cashed at a US post office. Perhaps this is another option.
if anyone has the appropriate e-maol for directing a complaint, please post--a phone call from CA seems excessive.
Yes, being a manager requires a balancing act. But so does being a moral human being. If the Satation Supervisor was following orders, then I would be just as mad at the Station Supervisor as I am as the person who passed down the order from higher up. And if that person, in turn, was in the same position, I would be mad at all of them. Where does the buck stop?
In a world of increasing accountability, it's amazing that we still can't seem to morally deal with issues pertaining to accountability along the links in the chain of command.
If I found out that the order came from higher up on the chain, I would be less mad at the Station Supervisor, but still disappointed, and most of my wrath would be aimed up to the next level.
But, the article made it seem otherwise. Upon a closer reading, you might find mention of how station supervisors come and go more quickly than token booth clerks, implying that how lax or strict a supervisor is, is their own choice of authority style.
So, while I understand the intricacies of the chain of command, I am still very upset, and for now, because I don't have more information, I'm mad at the Station Supervisor.
-Andrew
The press tends to do that more often than not.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The possibilities include an unreasonable supervisor, or an unreasonable manager above the supervisor who ordered the supervisor to do what she did.
I'm glad you raised the issue with MTA.
The Station Supervisor probably has a family. Are you willing to support him/her after being fired for failure carry out the instructions of his/her immediate supervisor?
By using that reasoning, it is also Mr Poem's fault for carrying out the supervisor's orders.
Let's face it, we're not talking about the Nuremberg Trials here, its just a supervisor telling a subordinate not to write poems on the blackboard or play musical instruments in the booth.
Is THAT what this thread is all about? Poetry and music?
Larry, RedbirdR33
If they were really slick they'd try to get Delta in on the deal, licensing their logo to the train operator like they do to with commuter airlines and using codesharing between the train and Delta flights.
Mark
Doesn't a single airport serve Cincinnati and Louisville? If so, a Downtown Louisville--airport--Downtown Cincinati light rail line might make sense.
Covington, Kentucky, to be specific.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Which is why its code is CVG.
Thus concludes my off-topic run-down of all you probably didn't want to know about my hometown airport. :O)
Train Rolls in, Signaling End to Louisville-to-Indy Trips
Mark
D Train to Allentown? LOL!
My west is more rural than your west!
Here you can drive OR ride a horse! : )
Elias (in North Dakota)
For that matter, you can take the E two stops to 7th Avenue if it comes first.
The transfer to the D is across the platform at either one.
;-) Andrew
NY WATERWAY
http://mathiasen.com/scantran/
Here's a teaser photo of the Stockholm T-Bana.
Stockholm names their T-Bana cars - every one is unique!
I can see the jokes that leads too also. If a particular car is hot, "Boy that Caroline is a hot one!".
Did you get to ride the Oslo T-Bane, or just its trams?
Mark
Mark
But, one thing that interested me was that the cars have an exterior door just for the motorman (or woman as the case often was) that they could open right from the cab and hop out to watch boarding/unboarding passengers at stops.
Mark
Sunday's (day before yesterday) Crescent came up from Washington behind AEM7 #914.
Chaohwa
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
Chaohwa
Why? Planning on getting dumped out at sea along with them? ;)
I called them, the report should be on-line shortly.
Peace,
ANDEE
I am looking forward to email this story to #4 Sea Beach Fred as soon as it's online.
Like I've said numberous times, the Brighton Line has the best express service in the world.
Aside from the fact that it runs shorter than the express.
Typical. The only train they'll admit is good is the one that is about to be eliminated.
BTW, the Concourse line is one of my favorites for all the right reasons, including the ONLY location in the entire subway system that is physically above a highway, WHILE still in a tunnel (174/175th Streets.)
Jimmy
Yeah, that is some outstanding engineering. That's like, taking the standard grid X Y pattern and adding some ZZZZZs. And when you stand down on the street fronting the station entrance, and look up at the Grand Concourse...it is almost jarring. It defies planar logic. The Bronx terrain has engendered numerous similar constructs. I feel it's way too unheralded.
Jimmy
This train was three minutes late, even accounting for the five minute pad. I guess math is not Cuza's strong suit.
57th-34th: 4 minutes
34th-Kings Hwy: 31 minutes
Kings Hwy-BBC: 6 minutes
Making it exactly 5 minutes late?
BTW I learned as a TW/O that lateness has to be accounted for when it reaches 2 minutes late, although its not officially late until it hits 5 minutes.
What's so special about it?
Jimmy
--Mark
Koi
--Mark
Koi
Welcome to SubTalk!
Now the opening to my original post, A non-SubTalker subway fan co-worker..., incorrect.
--Mark
Bob
I suspect if Bob was into that kinda stuff, he would have moved to New York YEARS ago. :)
Don't want you guys to think I skipped out on you, but the heat down there was even making the rats and roaches cry.
Jimmy
More to follow when I get to it.
Maybe Koi will describe the excitement in the mean time.
The excitement happened early in our trip, as a NYPD officer pulled Koi off the Redbird at Grand Central for committing the crime of taking video on MTA. He produced a printed regulation backing up his position. He was very polite (so was Koi) and said that he was doing what he had to do. When he was nearly finished writing Koi’s ticket, I asked whether it would be OK for me to photograph him writing the ticket. His reply discouraged me from doing so.
We returned to the platform as another eastbound Redbird rolled in, headed by 9712 and 9713, the Subway Series cars. That was the silver lining on the cloud of Koi’s ticket. Shortly after coming out of the tunnel in Queens, we saw an M7 train on the LIRR.
We rode to Main Street and back to Times Square, on another Redbird. From Times Square, Koi wanted to ride the west end of the next eastbound Redbird express, and I wanted to take outdoor (daylight) photos, so I took the next train to 61st Street/Woodside Ave and got a lot of Redbird shots. We counted six different Redbird trains on the line. There could have been more. CleanAirBus walked up to me on the platform at Woodside/61st and asked whether I knew who he is. I couldn’t remember ‘CleanAirBus’ at the time, so I said ‘Yes, you’re ‘Transit is my drug; Carleton’. We had a nice visit, even though he got excited by a bus down on the street.
Six R62A expresses came along before the first Redbird express, and I managed to ‘run’ from the westbound platform to the eastbound and get on. We were almost to Willits Point before I made my way to the last car and met up with Koi again.
Upon our second return to Times Square, I headed home and Koi headed for another Redbird to Main Street.
My Webshots photos start on this page, 8th photo, and conclude on page 2.
There's another poster who mentioned earlier if they wanted to meet up at TS to railfan the 7. He said he was going to be with a friend would would videotape the ride via the RFW. You may have spotted hin, then.
We stopped at Woodside at 4:50 PM heading to Times Square; we were in the last car.
Bob
Fight the ticket! Thats absolutely ridiculous. Sounds like something "Candid Camera" would do. Cops have the time to harass railfans on the subway for filming, but where are they when someone is driving and talking on the cellphone? Someone was doing just that was behind the wheel of a Jeep Grand Cherokee, distracted he hit and injured a pedestrian who needed medical attention.
Unfortunately, the driver, drove away making this a hit and run.
Fortunately quite a few of us copied down the license plate number on the Jeep. The pedestrian was hurt pretty badly, and needed an ambulance. Quite a disturbing scene. Which could've been prevented if the driver on the cell was pulled over and ticketed.
Then again I dont really blame the cop in your ticket blitz incident, he has orders from Gloomberg to ticket or get his pay cut.
I checked the MTA'S rules and it seems it treats still photography and video recording the same in these regards.
We told the officer that this was our understanding.
Concerning John's advice to fight it, vacation days are too precious for Koi to burn one only to wind up paying the $25 plus costs.
"Section 1050.9
Restricted areas and activities.
c. Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules."
The cop that gave me the summons wrote that I had violated rule 1050.9(c) on the summons; he also wrote "PO observed respondent video filming inside #7 train subway car w/o the authority of MTA" for the details of the violation. He told me that filming in the subway is not allowed and it has been like this every since 9/11. The cop showed me some regulation about unauthorized videotaking or photography is not allowed in the system and he said that I would have to have a permit to video film in the subway.
Now my question is which rule is correct since what the cop told me and what is currently on MTA's website (what's in the quotes at the beginning of this post) are inconsistent. I've never heard anything about a permit being required to use a camcorder in the subway prior to this incident. If the cop's version of the rules are the official version, then MTA should reflect that on their website.
What you saw posted on the MTA website was only just posted there recently, although the law's been in effect for several years. If you call NYCT to ask about permits, you'll be informed that (a) yes, they're required, but (b) no, they're not actually being issued.
I hope you decide to fight the ticket. I suspect you'll win, but I think we'd all be interested to hear the outcome in either case. Good luck.
Wow, this is getting interesting. He wrote that you violated that rule, but that rule says that video recording IS OK!. But then you said he had an addendum to section 1050.9(c)? I would most DEFINITELY fight this, and say that the rules, as posted on the website, show that this is SPECIFICALLY LEGAL.
Koi
(Granted, when I had a similar open-and-shut case with a parking ticket, I lost, because the judge didn't actually bother to read my letter, and I had to later appeal the decision.)
Koi
Koi
Jimmy
Koi
Koi
Jimmy
Koi
The excitement happened early in our trip, as a NYPD officer pulled Koi off the Redbird at Grand Central for committing the crime of taking video on MTA.
You must have missed my above quoted post. If you'd like me to stop by (maybe you don't), please reply here or send me an email. Thanks.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Anyway, we would more than willing to have you on our Post Jervis Trip next Saturday.
He's got the same Saturday issues that I do. Maybe change the trip to Sunday? :) I didn't suggest that earlier because I thought the PJ trains on Sunday ran on a totally different and less convenient schedule.
I don't ride trains on Saturdays except after dark. You weren't planning to begin the Port Jervis trip at 10pm, were you?
:0)
--Mark
Stay in your car.
OR it might have that EMPTY SEAT you're looking for!
MTA publishes such crap sometimes. :-(
Anyone know?
Occurs whenever there is a constant source of water somewhere in the vacinity - a leak, a canal, a river etc.
wayne
Darn.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chuck Greene
It's also real nice to put a face and emotions on our handles for other people to be introduced to.
1) Does Long Island Bus accept metrocard?
2) Is it a flat fare or a zoned fare and if it is zoned how does the metrocard figure it out? 3) Does City of Long Beach bus accept metrocard?
I know I should be posting this on Bus-Talk but you guys are the Metrocard experts.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Larry, RedbirdR33
No, BE surprised. Transfers are free with Metrocard.
Arti
Yes it does
2) Is it a flat fare or a zoned fare and if it is zoned how does the metrocard figure it out?
No zone when using Metrocard. With change though I think they still have the transfer surcharge of 25¢
3) Does City of Long Beach bus accept metrocard?
No
My question is:
Considering that Avenue H itself doesn't pass under the tracks, can one exit/enter the Avenue H station from the dead-end on either side of the Brighton Line?
Hopefully someone can help me with this in time.
Thanks much guys,
the lately lurking,
WMATA-riding come this fall,
West End Scott
Jimmy
WES
Jimmy
Yes, see below:
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh019.htm
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh020.htm
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh022.htm
Like the configuration of Avenue H, if you used the south side (PATH side) of 34th st/Broadway/6th Ave, you will notice passageways for both inside and outside fare control areas seperated by bulletproof glass. Avenue H uses the traditional gates to seperate the two areas. Very interesting station to visit
But shorter than the typical walk from a parking spot to a mall on a weekend. ;-)
When my favorite hardware store, Pergament went belly-up, they could've made it to a nice supermarket, like a Foodtown. With Kings Highway being the busiest station on the Brighton line, south of Atlantic Avem you would think you would have a supermarket there.
BTW: Hop on a B82 and B7 bus for 1 mile and there's a 24 hour CVS drug store on Nostrand and KH.
I thought it was Church Avenue. It always seemed that way to me at least.
--Mark
But on weekends, I think Church Ave has more fare registrations than KH.
STADIUM-SEATING RULES!
Somebody should tell the operator that the 50 hasn't seen trolleys in some time!!!
After that the operator switched it to the route he was heading for, the 13 to City Hall. It was great watching all the abandoned routes and terminals flash by, the 23, the 60, the 56, all of them! I got one shot off that was ok, showing the transition between the 15 and the 23 short route:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~wld25/P1010044.JPG
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?bustalk=78487
Picture is labeled as an R-38 interior, but the number of stanchions leads me to believe it is in fact an R-32 GE. R38s have only 6 poles, R-32s have 9, and R-32 GE have 10 last I counted. However, I have looked at the size of the windows and realized that it could still be an R-38, since R-38 side windows are larger than R-32, the only other difference between the 32 GE and R-38 interiors since that fundamental car difference would have been to difficult to modify.
So which is it?
Jimmy
Elias
--Mark
At New Haven I got quite a few pics of the power change operation (Railfan Pete) and at Meriden I saw an MoW crew making instant bond welds (see below).
The main slate of pics can be seen here at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/
Also I have quite a few new tower pics and they can be viewed at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Scan down for pics dated 07-08-03, those are the new ones.
Anyway, here are some teasers.
Amtrak MoW team welding track circut bonds.
View of Midtown from the Hellgate Bridge.
I lived in Astoria one time, so I have seen the bridge from the bottom (Astoria Park) plenty of times!
In 1983 when the Southwest corridor was rebuilt, they envisioned future electrifacation and therefore, along the entire new trench thinggie, they installed support for future catenary supports. In the image this manifests itself in that square of concrete that is sticking out of the top of the wall. The supports were designed to be anchored to it, the block being large enough to serve as an insulative baffle against vandals and whatnot. Well, notice where Seimens decided to place the cat support. This isn't an isolated case, all along the line they went out of their way to NOT use the pre-built and paid for catenary supports. You make the call.
This is kind of like the Seattle Bus Tunnel which will be used for unSound Transit's Central Link LRT system (now at 178 million per mile!). The tunnel, as built, had LRT tracks inlaid in the concrete floor, as well as some catenary supports in the tunnels. Now that the tunnel will be gutted for the introduction of Link LRT trains, the track will be torn out and completely rebuilt, and yet the track will come back just as it has always been. This raises the question of who is being ripped off here, was KC Metro ripped off by the contractor who built the tunnel originally, even though, IIRC, KC Metro requested the tracks? Or is Sound Transit being ripped off by the contractor currently building the Central Link through their refusal to use the exsisting tracks for their trains?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
On the upper level I just avoided all MNR employees by only taking photos when none were around. Because of that, I only got two photos.
You're definitely on a roll...keep enjoying what you do, and keep up the great work! : - )
It is said to be 180 metres long, with a speed of 11 km per hour and a capacity of 110,000 people per day. So far it has carried 4 million people.
The article may be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3001182.stm
Bule Line at Scoolay Under
AEM7
It's now Government Center.
See here and scroll down to Blue Line.
It was GREAT seeing you again! Hope to meet up again on the ole Sea Beach Line!
-Mark
I enjoyed the long week in New York just as much as you did, and particularly relished our trip on the Sea Beach line. Frankly, it looked better than I remembered it, partly because of the lush, greenery decorating the right-of-way, no doubt due to the rains earlier in the season.
I'm glad you had a great visit in NYC! If only you could of been in the Bronx on Monday with me to see Todd Walker messup the double play. :-)
-Nick
I presume the ride you are talking about took place last Thursday evening, with me on our way to Brooklyn. But the ride was so good, you won't admit it here what your #1 line is. (Get it? #1 line HAHAHAHAH!)
Hmmmm, let's see: True that neither your train, nor my train goes to Coney Island, but at least with my train, I have a choice of up to THREE buses I can use, one a TOTALLY FREE EXPRESS BEACH BUS at the south end of Sheepshead Bay on weekends, and two other regular bus routes, one also at Sheepshead Bay (B36), and the other at "Blighton Bitch" station as you call it (B68, extended to Stillwell/Surf).
OTOH, if I was dependent on your Slime Bitch line, I would have to take TWO buses from any open cut station on your line. I could take one bus to nearby Brighton Beach (B1 from 86th St terminal), but it's a good walk to CI and your Cyclone and who would want to do that in 90+ degree weather?
BTW: Me and my sister's beach bus routes (my sister is the Culver, LOL) both stop in front of your favorite ride, the Cyclone. Got anything to say about that, when there is no beach bus from your Sea Beach? Then why do they call it the Sea Beach anyway, when there is no beach bus?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your N Sea Beach will not be able to return back to Coney until March 2005 at the earliest. Remember once three platforms are done in May, 2004, the new D West End line will have to come in on your Tracks 1 and 2 while the final platform for Tracks 7 and 8 are being demolished and rebuilt.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Curious...What plays did you see?
1.If there was a TRUE brake malfunction,the etire train would have overrun the platform.
2.If tere was a TRUE brake malfunction,the train would have and should have been taken out of service,which it was not.It continued WITH PASSENGERS to Woodside.
BTW the train was an M-3.
That doesn't frighten you? Your concern is for the engineer?
How many spouses and children do the passengers have -- or are they somehow less important?
Hopefully it's a case of the engineer forgetting that they had a scheduled stop at Forest Hills, rather than a case of simply not paying attention. As all railfans who've ridden the LIRR are aware, however, incidents of the engineer operating the train while paying more attention to the person standing in their doorway chatting are far too frequent.
I doubt the engineer is going to lose their job over one incident -- and if it has happened more than a few times, perhaps they should.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Consistency. If you know that usually the first 4 stop at the platform and tou are in the first car and then one day it has the last 4 platform, you will have one heck of a run to those cars. Regular commuters know where they need to be....they know where the doors wil open on the platform and all that fun stuff.
SEPTA and Snidely Whiplash
My favorite line in the article is, "The train bearing down on SEPTA was one of the transit agency's own, so it was slow and late."
Mark
It happened at Grand Ave/Newtown, not Grand St.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then, I transfered to the (1) (by going outside and coming back in because I hate the within-the-system transfer). I just missed a SB (1), so then I had maybe a 9 minute wait for the next one. And that station was boiling hot!
All in all, an awful morning, but because I got to see and ride (but not photograph) an R-32GE, it wasn't a total loss.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Also, some (B) and (D) trains apparently ran along the (A) possibly being turned at Jay St. because when I got off at Chambers St, there was a light (D) train heading northbound through the station.
David
Here are the stations that you can transfer train to train with MetroCard.
Lexington/63 (F) --- Lexington/60 (N)(R)(W) / 59 St(4)(5)(6)
45 Road (7) --- 23-Ely (E)(V) / Court Sq (G)
Stillwell and Brighton Beach allow an intermediate transfer to the B68.
I don't know about 86th Street. It should be in the list, IMO, but my hunch is that it's not.
I don't think so. It's close to Avenue X on the F. Unfortunately, I don't think such a transfer would be allowed.
Here's an example.
On the N there is one MetroCard transfer at 59th St. and Lex to the F.
The 4 train makes local stops in Manhattan from 1:15 AM to 5:30 AM, and Canal St is a local stop. So you can transfer from the N to the 4 at 59th st, 14th St-Union Square, Borough Hall, or Atlantic Ave, those are full time stops on the 4. But you can't do this at Canal St, the 4 stops there for only 4 hours or on weekend G.O.'s. Those are the times when the N runs only in Brooklyn, Pacific St and stations south.
Did you forget that the N doesn't go north of Pacific on weekends and after around 11pm.
Subway transfers
59 St/Lex (4,5,6) & Lexington Av/63 St (F)
Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd/Courthouse Sq (7)
Before we begin today’s lesson, a correction from the last column. For whatever reason, I made reference to the AAR as the American Association of Railroads. It is actually the Association of American Railroads. I looked at it numerous times thinking there was something wrong about it, but the mistake was not registering. I guess that happens on occasion. Call it brain freeze. The beautiful bride calls it getting old, but with age comes wisdom (or so they tell me), so that cannot be the case.
There is a great deal of concentration involved in the job of railroading. There are numerous tasks and responsibilities of which to keep track, no pun intended. As the Engineer I really have a great deal to do, although when you see me rolling past I am not looking like a font of intense concentration. To this day, the beautiful bride still thinks all I do is sit there and look out the window. However there are often times when the fullest of concentration is not required. While you still have to keep track of everything, you are not doing it with any degree of great difficulty.
Whenever we are sitting at a signal waiting to proceed, or things are rolling along pretty good, you can relax a bit. The Conductor and Brakeman (should we happen to have one) and I may engage in some interesting conversation. We’ll talk about family, friends, life experiences, on the job experiences, cars, motorcycles, women; the topics are endless. Sometimes though, depending upon who you are working with, you can really have some fun.
Myself, I enjoy good comedy. I have recall of lots of jokes, gags, one-liners, anecdotes and the like. I also enjoy good wacky songs and comedy movies. Sometimes I’ll work with somebody who also enjoys such material and we can swap lines back and forth. I have been known to even incorporate some of them into the radio conversation. A prime example of that would be using a line from a Cheech & Chong character called Blind Mellon Chitlin. Those of you that have heard this know the line, but for those that don’t whenever asked anything he responds “Uh, yah.” Sometimes I will use this on the radio when responding to certain Conductors I work with.
There are some guys that are just a riot to work with. There will be a barrage of jokes, anecdotes, stories, and one-liners flying across the cab of the engine. We may perform imitations of fellow employees, former employees, supervisors and the like. We may also make up our own little games. With the lifestyle the industry provides us (or lack thereof on many occasions) the stress we are exposed to on a regular basis, the noise, heat, cold and sleep deprivation that are constants in our lives, we need something to do to vent and keep our minds and wits sharp. It also makes the day go by a little quicker and the job much more fun.
Way back in my MoPac days, I fired for this one Engineer that connected well with my warped and dimented sense of humor. We got along well enough that in a left handed way he fixed me up with one of his daughters. If I had a daughter, the first railroader that came near her would be dragged out into a corn field, beaten with a baseball bat then shot, but then that is just me. I suppose when the word got out about this treatment, no other railroader would dare tread in that first guys footsteps. Sorta reminds me of that old song “Wolverton Mountain” where Clifton Clowers intends to shoot anybody that goes near his daughter. But I digress.
This Engineer and I used to laugh and joke about some of the characters with whom we worked. As I have mentioned many times before there is a very diverse and colorful bunch that comprises the work force of the rail industry. With the nature of the beast that is railroading, it is probably more of a diverse culture than in many other industries. That diversity leads to many colorful and unusual characters. And it seems there is a cast of thousands of interesting folks supplanting the rail industry workforce.
We came up with different categories for the various guys we worked with. We took these categories and broke them down into crews. This would be a crew of four or five guys which was the standard crew size back in those days. We would nominate candidates to these categories and then discuss their qualifications to be a member of a specific crew.
Some of our categories included the unclean crew (for those that didn’t bathe on a regular occasion), the all incorrigible crew (for those that seemed to strive to find new ways to get into trouble on and off the job), the all worthless crew(those that seem to underachieve on a regular basis), the worst dressed crew (those who looked like they stole their clothes from the reject pile at the Salvation Army store), the heavyweight crew (those whose fondness of culinary pleasures tended to broaden their waste bands), the all maniacal crew (those who ran around like wild men or perhaps like chickens with their heads cut off), the whiners also known as the piss, bitch and moan society (for those whose main function at work seemed to be to perform any and/or all of the PB&M activities over just about anything they were instructed to do in their tour of duty) and of course the all frugal crew. Frugal is a very kind way of calling those in this category, cheap. This category needs no explanation.
These are some of the better ones that come to mind. There are a few others, but we will leave them out of this discussion as it is a family forum.
We would go over the qualifications and if an individual met up with our rigid standards they were then added to a crew. Now if it there happened to be a category that already had a full crew, we might have to create an afternoon or night trick job to accommodate them. Or we would just decide there would be a heavy assignment which required an extra locomotive and/or caboose to carry these guys. And there were a few that qualified for several categories, so they did double duty.
Being that we were both normal (hold your tongue), we never found any categories for ourselves. Now if others played this game, they more than likely had us in some kind of category. And I’m certain after I broke up with this guy’s daughter he probably created a new category just for me.
Then there is the “stir sh*t" game. This is where you concoct some sort of outlandish BS story and then practically swear it to be true. You have to pick your targets carefully for this one though. You want those that will believe what you are telling them without too much resistance on their part. The story is created, crafted and then reveled to this individual. This is frequently referred to as “stirring the sh*t.”
There was one guy we really started to stir it up with. We created a story that in the next contract, the Trainmen would not be getting back pay with their settlement. Both the Engineers and Trainmen had gone almost two years without a settlement to their respective contracts. So we decided to have some fun with one particular guy who was really aggravated about the entire affair. We kept telling him the back pay was gone and that the wage increases would be very small, if there were to be any at all.
In short order this guy was flying off the handle going into quite the rant. He was threatening to quit the railroad and go down to West Lafayette. He figured he would get a job at Purdue as a custodian. Everyday when we came to work one of us would just mention the back pay issue and he would immediately go into his ranting and raving. He had gone around and told just about anybody who would listen that we worked with about it all. Of course we were telling them the truth, that there was no talk at all about losing the back pay, after he left the room.
Finally after several weeks of this stirring the pot up, we came clean with him. He called us all sorts of names at first, but within a few minutes agreed that it was a pretty good one and how we had him going. He quickly got over it and things were back to normal again.
Over the years there have been other topics and people involved in stirring up the pot. Some folks are just prime targets.
In my Wisconsin Central days, I worked with a Conductor named Brian Kruger. Brian was (and remains to this day) an excellent railroader. We are still friends and talk periodically and as the strange ironies of life go, now work for the same railroad again, only in different locations. Brian was a riot to work with and we had lots of fun together while on the job.
In those early days of the WC, we had some forty ex Burlington Northern SD45’s as part of our motive power fleet. The lion’s share of them were still in the paint scheme of their former owner. >From a distant view or from the front, they still appeared to be BN units. This is what set the stage for this game.
We used to operate across the Belt Railway of Chicago, CSX and Conrail trackage in Chicago. Crews of the BN also used this very same trackage to reach the very same connections as us. It was not uncommon for us to meet and pass some of these BN trains in our journeys. Normally, when meeting or passing another train we generally acknowledge them with a wave or some sort of greeting. Should it be somebody you know, perhaps a comment or greeting on the radio will take place as well. It might just be a simple “Howdy boys” or maybe something more elaborate.
When we met or passed a BN crew, we would wave and greet them like we knew them and like they should know us. Oftentimes they too, would give us a greeting like they knew us. Once they got a close up look at us, they would look bewildered as they were trying to figure out who in the world we were. They hadn’t looked at the little “WC” initials stenciled over the blanked out BN logo under the cab windows.
This is where the fun began. One day without any advance planning, Brian and I just started having a discussion about the guys on that train like we knew them; and not just conversation, but the creation of characters and situations about them. Something to the extent of, “Hey wasn’t that Charlie Evers from the old south end pool?” Brian would respond something like, “Ya. Wasn’t he the one whose wife slept with everybody in the terminal when he wasn’t there?”
Or perhaps it might be something like “Hey look, there’s Eddie Clark. I see they finally let him out.” And then we would create some sort of goofy crime that this individual committed to get him sent up the river in the first place. Unbeknownst to them, many of these BN crews had been given some sort of past. It was fun and interesting to see just how creative we could get.
W made some guys out to be big drunks, womanizers, freaks, bums, weirdos, tightwads, criminals, nut jobs and the like. You know, just like real railroaders. We established a wide range of old assignments like freight runs and locals and long since abandoned or consolidated terminals. Sometimes if we didn't have a quick story for a crew we just refer to them as some of those "west end boys." And we had already established the fact that the gang from this pool was not a friendly bunch.
This really became a fun game as we tried to come up with more outlandish “tales of the dark side” as it were for people we didn’t even know. The more bizarre, wild or strange it was, the more fun we had. Makes me wonder why we were railroading instead of being the writers of some sort of cheap novels.
Some of other the fun and games include water tricks. Over the years, more than one railroader has been blasted with a stream of water. We get these little bottles of drinking water on the locomotives. This isn’t Dasani or Aquafina, but rather water out of some city water supply or what is pumped off from a coal mine somewhere. Judging how some of it tastes, I think it was pumped out of a landfil somewhere. On occasion when passing somebody you might have a bottle of water prepared for such and simply point and squeeze. A nice stream of water shoots out from the top and the unsuspecting soul gets a sudden and unplanned shower.
There is one guy I work with now that always closes the windows on his locomotive whenever he sees me coming. I always tell him he is paranoid. Gee, you blast a guy three or four times and they get all weird and strange on you.
Another water game involves loosening the top of a water bottle and then tossing it to somebody on the ground. They reach up to grab it, normally squeezing it as they catch it. The loosened top then pops off and they get their clothes washed. Of course in the summer when it is blazing hot this can really feel good.
Sometimes we get some fool who decides to play chicken with our train. When it comes to this game, I will always win. I do not perceive this game as funny or even slightly humorous. One mistake and you are injured or dead. But people do it just the same. When I get some idiot that decides to test my nerve, they often get a blast of water from me when I pass them after they have bailed from in between the gauge of the rail.
One bitterly cold (-20° F) night in Wisconsin, some smart assed adolescent learned the spoils of playing chicken. We used to operate on the streets of Oshkosh (literally) and crossed people’s driveways and front or side yards as well. We were restricted to 10 MPH for the street and yard operation. Knowing that we weren’t going very fast, motorists and cyclists as well as pedestrians frequently darted right across in front of us. Some people would play chicken with us, normally getting out of the way well in advance though. Others didn’t and waited until the last second and then cleared out.
On this particular night, there was a group of kids congregated along the tracks. As we approached them they decided to test my nerve. We were poking along at our 10 MPH pace and they just stood there in the gauge of the rail. One by one they started to move out of the way as I closed in on them. I gave them several blasts of the whistle and a few more cleared. One though, stood his ground and decided he was going to show us. I told Brian to give me a bunch of water bottles quickly. He did so opening them up as he handed them to me. I slid my side windows open and made ready the water bottles.
At the last second this kid stepped aside moving (as luck would have it) over to my side as he did so. As I passed him he gave me that familiar “number 1” signal and smiled. I then proceeded to pour six bottles of water onto him. I drenched him pretty thoroughly too. At -20° I’m pretty certain he wasn’t feeling refreshed from his impromptu shower. I’ll also bet he never played chicken with a train again either.
Moving back to my days at the Chicago Central, this one involves water but in a frozen form. One afternoon when I was working the Markham Transfer run, we got stopped at Clark Street, the crossing between the Illinois Central Gulf’s Chicago District and Metra’s Rock Island District. It was getting to be evening rush, so we wouldn’t be going anywhere for at least an hour and a half. It was also snowing like crazy and the weather was fast becoming a factor in railroad operations.
There is a printing house located on the south side of the right of way just east of the crossing. It was either the Conductor or Brakeman that noticed two guys in the parking lot next to the printing house having a snowball fight. We decided to join in on their fun, although we did not ask to be invited, and we did it in a really sinister sort of way. First we got off the engine and proceeded to make a bunch of snowballs. Then we began to bombard both of these guys from our perch up above. Were they surprised!
These two guys rethought their battle, teamed up and decided to engage us in a battle of frozen water balls. We played this game until they realized they were outnumbered, outgunned and out supplied. They called for a truce after about fifteen minutes and we let them head on home.
Our next topic is bombs. As I mentioned in the column about flagging rules, torpedoes were a regular part of the supplies included on a locomotive. One evening the crew of a train we were meeting at a siding placed several of them on the rail. We hit them, not expecting the booms and were quite surprised. We immediately took this as a call to arms.
“Anything you can do I can do better.”
And so the battle began.
If we were the first train at the meeting point, we would set up the trap. Instead of placing the torpedoes right at the meeting point, we walked ahead of the meeting point placing a bunch of them about a quarter mile before the signal. This crew countered by placing about twenty of them really close together the next time we met. Hmm, very good but we must counter with a bigger and better measure. We would do one thing and they would do something else to counter the next time. Then we decided to really do something really big. It took careful consideration and planning.
For well over a week, we did nothing. The crew we were waging battle with probably thought the war was over and they had won. But they were wrong. There is something to be said about that element of surprise. One evening we were headed into the siding at Vernon, WI for a meet. We had ascertained they were quite a distance away so we had time to really set this one up.
As I headed into the east end and ready to roll into the siding, I stopped the train. We took every torpedo we could find on all three units and placed them all on the rails at the east end on the main track for about a quarter of a mile. We staggered them on each rail so that they would go off alternately. Then we pulled into the siding and down to the west end and waited for the meet. They arrived; we rolled them by, exchanged pleasantries and waited. A couple of seconds later they were complementing us over the radio on our skills in setting up this little surprise. It was bigger and better than they had planned as they were somewhat shocked as bombs were still going off while talking to us on the radio.
A couple of days later though this battle was brought to an unplanned and abrupt end by a company official. This guy asked us about the sudden surge in torpedo use. It seems somebody from the roundhouse noticed they were suddenly having to completely refill the all the torpedo containers on inbound power coming from Chicago. So we decided rather than taunt those that can discipline us, we would immediately cease and desist. Of course we never did fess up to anything though, we just played possum.
We’ll go back to the radio now. There used to be an Operator at the MoPac that made far too frequent use of the word “uh.” It was just about every other word out of his mouth whenever he was speaking to anyone be it on the radio or face to face. We used to play games and count the number of times he said “uh” on the radio in a single transmission. One time he actually said it thirty-seven times. This could easily make one want to go postal.
Well instead of losing it, one afternoon I decided to have some fun instead. This Operator had to issue us a track permit to operate against the current of traffic out to Chicago Heights. We had to copy the instructions and repeat them back. It went something like this;
“OK, uh, MP 1579 you have a uh, track permit to operate against the uh, current of traffic uh, on the uh, northbound main between, uh Thornton Junction and uh, 12th Street from uh, 1247 until uh, 215pm uh, over.”
I repeated back these instructions;
“Uh, MoPac 1579 has a uh, track permit to operate against the uh, current of traffic uh, on the uh, northbound main between uh, Thornton Junction and uh, 12th Street from uh, 1247 until uh, 215 pm uh, over.”
My crew was in hysterics as they could not believe I would and did do something like this. Several others picked up on my prank and pulled the same stunt off as well. I don’t believe this Operator ever caught on though.
Another Operator was sort of a cantankerous old sort who was always crabby about something. That job alone could do it as it was a very busy office in which to work. This guy would about bite your head off on the radio sometimes. One evening, after trying to call him repeated times he just yelled back into the radio “I’M BUSY!” With that I just got up really close the mike on the radio, depressed the “press to talk” button and yelled “AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!” at the top of my lungs. Yell at me will you?
He could really make things miserable for you when he got mad. That is, until I figured out how to use his anger to my advantage. I might call him for a signal and say something like “B Yard to Two Yard as soon as possible John.” With his West Virginia drawl he would yell back something like “I’LL GIVE IT TO YOU WHEN I’M GOOD AND READY!” Of course, we were usually on overtime by this point. And with his angry demeanor, it usually meant you would sit there for fifteen or twenty minutes or more while the big money meter was running.
The last one is one of my personal favorites. I was working some afternoon assignment at Yard Center in 1982. I was hanging around the Crew Caller’s office during our coffee break as the Caller on duty happened to be a girl I was dating at the time. She had gone off to take care of something when one of the phones began to ring. It rang about eight million times without stopping. I finally got sick of listening to this annoying ringing so I decided to take action. I simply picked up the phone briefly, and then hung it right back up. About two seconds later it began to ring again, so I repeated the process. And then it rang a third time and yet again, I did the quick hang up thing. Finally, the party at the other end gave up. Good, that’ll shut ‘em up.
Just a couple of minutes after that, the car of Assistant Superintendent Al Welch comes barreling up to the front door of the building, which was right next to the Caller’s office. I quickly got up from the chair in the Caller’s office and stood by the door leading in to it. Mr. Welch comes storming in and sees me standing there. He yells out “Where’s the caller?” I told him I had no idea. He then asked how long I had been there. I told him I had just walked in right ahead of him as I had just come up from downstairs after getting a cup of coffee.
He then asked if I had seen anybody in here when I got in there and I told him something to the effect of seeing some road guy here but he had left right after I walked in. I was then told about some “wiseass” who kept hanging up on him when he was trying to contact the Caller. I was not about to give my wise young ass up to him as it most likely would have involved a “fair and impartial” investigation resulting in some sort of disciplinary action to be imposed upon me. We couldn’t have that now, so I simply told him that it was stupid on the part of whomever that individual was to do such a thing. What I was thinking though was that it would be stupid on the part of the wiseass that pulled this stunt to give them self up. He agreed with what I said and then waited for the Caller to return to tell her whatever it was he needed her to know in person. I quickly exited the office after our conversation for fear I might break out into laughter and indeed give myself away.
I never did tell the Caller what I did either. It was probably a good thing as she likely would have given me up when I broke up with her sometime later. You know what they say about scorned women.
Uh, And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the uh, High Iron, © 2003 by uh, JD Santucci
We will be at IRM on Sunday.
Was that the car you saw?
You now have it dated as "probably from 1936 to 1940". Even though the line was demolished 16 years before I was born, I strongly feel the pic is post 1940. Notice the "severed" southbound local track, forcing all trains over to the "middle" track. It looks as if a realignment was made when Rockaway Ave was made the new "terminal" for the Fulton St. el. Maybe I'm wrong, or am missing something which was done here prior to the truncation of service. Perhaps a real OLD timer can clear things up.
My guess is 1956, April of that year to be exact.
The Rockaway Ave terminal of the Fulton St. elevated was closed after the IND subway to East New York was extended over the old BMT Fulton St. elevated to Lefferts Ave., later Blvd. With the opening of the IND subway extension, the old "el" became redundant and was closed.
That picture looks like it was taken from the Canarsie bound platform at Broadway Junction of the 14th St. Canarsie line. It's kinda high up as we all can see today. Also this was the finale of the "C" Types.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's true. I say April 1956 because when a particular line will close or fleet of rolling stock is retired, railfans come out of the woodwork and photograph them big time. Closure of the Third and Myrtle Ave "els" and retirement of pre-war equipment are the best examples. Check the dates and you'll see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
In any case, based on the automobiles on the street, it is no earlier than 1954, and it is probable that one of the cars is a 1956 model. Also note the stop sign which is a light colored word on a dark background, probably white on red. The change to white on red from black on yellow took place in the mid ‘50s.
Tom
There were three tracks between Rockaway Avenue and Atlantic, but I don't know what of those were used or operable near the end.
Has anyone found out where the pic at the beginning of this thread was?
New York is the most important, the most valuable, the most significant, etc. But it isn't the nicest, and given how heavily it's used and how often it's misused it probably can't be.
That said, this capital plan seems to be all about amenity -- rebuilding many of the major stations, new public address and ATS systems, etc. So the NYC subway will be a lot nicer in a decade.
And the funny thing is, looking at it hardheadedly I'd rather spend the money on capacity (ie. Second Avenue), speed and reliability than on amenity. But that didn't affect my answer to the question. Perhaps amenity is important after all.
It took me awhile to appreciate that my own home system (SEPTA) really does offer great railfanning since I have to put up with it's many shortcomings when I have to use it for utiliitarian travel rather than joyriding.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
It's a closed system with a limited number of topics -- until some new issue (plans released, labor negotiation, MTA reorganization) rears its head.
But for cleanliness and modern appearance, it's Washington Metro, and SF BART.
The DC Metro is my second favorite and the third has to be the Chicago Transit.
Even without the express trains the sheer density and extensiveness on New York's subways put it in another league entirely compared to other U.S. systems. It's peers aren't other subways in this country but systems like the London Underground. In North America only Mexico City is in the same league. As for the United States, DC and Chicago come closest. They're much smaller systems, but appropriate for the size of their respective metro areas.
Mark
The CTA & Metra do a fine job of serving Chicago. The only area is the far South-Side after 95th St. that could really use L service. That's why 95th/Dan Ryan is the #1 station for ridership, many people transfer to buses there to continue further south. Metra does extensively serve the south-side, but with less frequent service and higher fares, many people choose the longer and cheaper combo bus & L ride.
I love NYC and it is my favorite transit system with my home city Chicago coming in a close second. But the impression I get from NYC & especially Manhattan is that the traffic is horrendous 7 days a week. Also that even if you sit in the traffic, it apperared to me that there was hardly anywhere to park in Manhattan. Because of this NYC has to have an excellent transit system.
Whereas Chicago's traffic is also often horrendous, but if you choose to sit through it and have around $400.00 a month you will have no problem getting a parking spot anywhere you choose downtown.
On the other hand, I just got back from California and spent a few days in LA. I thank god I don't live there!! The traffic is always horrendous like NYC, but there is hardly any public transit. The red line is great, but very small. Metro-link also exists, but has limited service and would make an ex-Metra or LIRR rider depressed. Parking is everywhere, but so is the wonderful traffic.
(from mta.info)
Annual Subway Ridership
1. Moscow 3.2 billion
2. Tokyo 2.7 billion
3. Seoul 1.6 billion
4. Mexico City 1.3 billion
5. New York City 1.3 billion
6. Paris 1.2 billion
7. Osaka 957 million
8. London 886 million
9. Hong Kong 798 million
10. St. Petersburg 784 million
I didn't know there was a difference.
I didn't know there was a difference.
I'm guessing that's because the numbers have been rounded off.
Mark
www.bvg.de
1. NYC subway: Between the 4 track express system and the nice fleet NYC rules
2. WMATA: The cleanlieness and the high speed routes. Plus the Red line is the icing on the cake.
3. LA: I especially like their bus system. But the Red and soon to be Gold line are cool.
1) WMATA
2) NYMTA Family of transit systems
3) SEPTA
4) NJ Transit
Honorable Mention: MARTA, CTA, and Montreal.
Going worldwide, Germany's Karlsruhe is probably one pf the most advanced, if not the most advanced, city transit system in the world. They were the pioneers in using normal trolleys on the national railroad network (and for demonstration purposes, those same trolleys have operated via the railroad right into France and Switzerland). They began this type of operation about 15 years ago with just a single line, and now have about ten. The entire Karlsruhe network is conventional but very coordinated; many bus routes buses are used as feeders to the trolley network, and buses are not permitted in many parts of the downtown area - you must use the trolleys. And this trolley/railroad system has never had an accident - even with trolleys, local and express commuter trains (both diesel and electric), the high speed ICE trains and freight trains all sharing the same tracks. It is the most intruiging thing to stand at one railroad location for about an hour and never know the next type of rail vehicle to come. Of course, in this country, the FRA (Federal Railway Administration) says this type of network is really not possible. If they would get off their rear ends in their Washington DC offices and take a trip to Karlsruhe, they'd be quite embarassed. They have a great web site and additional links that explain the whole type, just type in "Karlsruhe" in your search engine.
Mexico City's subway system is unique but also crippled by the French rubber tire design which they adopted for most lines. The cars are small and hot, but they do run very efficiently at extremely close intervals at all times of the day and well into the night. This system has a very unique distinction that it shares with New York: the Empire State Building was built in just about 13 months; the first Mexico City route opened in about 18. Much like the first IRT subway, they employed about 10,000 daily workers to construct the first lines.
I note that most SubTalkers have chosen North American systems, particularly those in the northeastern United States, as their favorites. My suggestion is to take a trip to a foreign city, particularly those in Europe. Your favorites will probably then change, especially when you notice the cleanliness and efficiency of most other international systems.
Wouldn't I love to! Annoyng things like a busy schedule and cost of travel keep me stateside. I consider myself very fortunate that I've been able to visit as many places in North America as I have, thanks to frequent business trips. So far my employer hasn't seen fit to send me overseas. : (
It'd be a real treat to ride some European systems, and I also have a fascination with systems in Latin America. I'm dying to ride in Mexico City, Buenos Aires, and Caracas...don't know why those three stand out in my mind. Plus there's about ten or so subway systems operating in Brazil alone. That would make for one whopper of a single-country railfan tour.
Mark
But, I also have great affection for the small Glasgow, Scotland subway. There is only one line that runs in a circle surrounding central Glasgow. I would regularly take the subway in Glasgow from the Queen Street Scotrail station to Partick and Ibrox when I lived in Edinburgh. It's a great system for its size: clean, efficient, frequent service, and speedy.
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/glasgow.html
Mark
Are there any of those Mexicans left in the workforce? And if so, can we bring them here next year to work on Second Avenue?
Are there any of those Mexicans left in the workforce? And if so, can we bring them here next year to work on Second Avenue?
Har-dee-har-har. If work ever starts on the SAS, the MTA will have to hire union workers who'll get paid 10X what the Mexicans would get and on a per-man basis will do one-third of the work that the Mexicans would do.
Man, you are amazing. Prove that outrageous statement. Are you one of those quasi-slave-hirin' little "sub-contractors" who slither up to those guys waiting on various street corners in order to "hire" a few of `em to do work for you? At a wage that is well below what is necessary for a life beyond a grasping day-by-day existence? Sure sounds like it. My fellow citizens who go around making observations such as the one you expressed above seem to think that a bare-bones penny-pinching outlook is the ONLY way to consider a way of life. Trust me, that is a sure path to ruin.
Way I feel about it...you want the work done, pay the real wages. Just because the opportunity to get manual labor help at minimal wages is there DOES NOT mean it's the best way. And yeah, that also means maybe consider employing an American (of whatever ancestry) for the work. Most of those guys sniveling about how "...but American guys wont do the work!" are full of it. They just want to pocket as much money for THEMSELVES as they can. And are not willing to be honest and fair about the transaction. IMO, little conniving weasels. If it was up to me I'd be standing there and start throwing eggs at the bastards when they drive up to do their "hiring".
Really, you are WAY off base with that crack. It's offensive and ignorant. You better think Very Clearly about what you stated. It's that kind of attitude that'll do this country in. Then where you gonna go? Canada? Austrailia? China?
1. London Underground- The vibe of this system can't be beat. You are surrounded by the oldest subway lines in the world, and then in a quick ride you are in some of the most modern, beautiful stations out there. I love navigating through the maze the walkways that connect lines. I love the abandoned platforms of the sub-surface that are in clear sight. Walking around, you see closed of walkways and wonder where they lead, and the pitch black tunnels of the tube make you wonder what's down there.
2. São Paulo Metrô- This is one of the most technologically advanced subways in the world. Everything is computer controlled, right down the the door operation. I'm amazed by the sheer volume of people that use it, over 700 million/year, and the system is less than 40 route miles long. It handles the crowds without breaking a sweat. Headways are less than 100 seconds during rush hour, and are at around 100 seconds the rest of the day. Smart planning by the designers is what made the major transfer stations with a center exit platform and two entry side platforms, so that there is absolutely no conflict with passengers entering and exiting. The system is currently in a major expansion, and I can't wait until 2010 to ride everything.
3. Atlanta MARTA- This is my home subway, and I grew up with it, so I have a special bond with it. No two stations are alike; every station is unique with different designs and artwork. For such a small system, it's really fun to railfan, I've ridden whole system at least 10 times over.
4. New York NYCT- It's dank, dirty, loud, ugly and slow, and I love that. It's fun riding an ancient train while bouncing all over the place. I love the massiveness of the system. You can spend a lifetime studying the subway and STILL not know everything about it.
5. Montreal STCUM- Beautiful stations, I love how the system is well integrated with the rest of the city. You can ride the train and get off, walk several blocks, and still be underground. All the shops and businesses near the fare control makes it hard to tell where the businesses end and the station begins.
6. DC WMATA- While it has repetitive stations and no variety, they picked a damn good design to repeat. The cavernous stations kick ass. It's also the largest modern subway in the US, I wish other cities could be as extensive as the Metro.
7. Toronto TTC- Not quite integrated with the city like Montreal, but pretty close. I like the classical music played in the stations. The cars are attractive.
8, San Fran BART- The first modern subway in the US and it's amusing to see some of the high-tech features that never made it into later subways because they were overkill. It's also one of the few subways where you can pass through cars. The Market St segment along with MUNI and the surface buses is a railfan gold mine.
9. Chicago CTA- The trains on the L go up to 40 mph on the elevated parts, what fun, NYC is missing out. The long-ass downtown subway station are fun the traverse.
10. Boston MBTA- This was the first subway system I rode that wasn't MARTA. Each line is unique and i like the Green Line underground.
Top light rail systems I've ridden with no explanations:
1. MUNI
2. Docklands
3. Boston Green Line
4. St Louis
5. Seattle Monorail
Despite going there three times, surprisingly I have not ridden Toronto's streetcars.
Top 6 subways that I want to ride one day:
1. Moscow
2. St Petersburg
3. Philly SEPTA
4. Mexico City
5. Tokyo
6. Hong Kong
Subways that I will ride on my trip to Europe in August (my subway list will no doubt be shaken up at the end of next month):
1. Amsterdam
2. Paris
3, Maybe Frankfurt of I go there
Mark
Mark
http://www.freewaymonorail.org/
Here's the photo gallery: Galería de Imágenes
...and the line histories: Breve Reseña Histórica
Mark
Mark
1211-15 and 6931-35 are testing for #4 service at the present time.
This leaves only 6946-50 left from the original order!
-Stef
It's very useful for those who have text messaging enabled on their cell phones, now if you see an incident in progress on your subway line, you can whip out your phone and send a text, WAP or voice message from you phone to my group and everyone can read it off their phone or computer. Then when they read off the message on the compuer, IMMEDIATE postings to this board can also be done.
Here's how it works. Rememeber, my group is in baby stages, so some kinks may need to be ironed out first.
1. Go to Upoc web site and register your handle. If you have a cell phone, attach you phone number to your handle.
2. Once you register your handle and mobile phone to Upoc, you will have to join my group. Locate NYC Subway Stories under Your City/Region --> NYC ---> NYC Subway Stories link
NOTE: Certain carriers use an access code to send messages to this group, follow instructions on the Upoc site.
Now you can broadcast a message or send a voice message to 973-242-1550.
And please don't worry about my OTHER handle, I like that handle and I will keep it that way.
Any more info I know, you will get it on that group.
Have more fun everyone. Look forward to see you there.
Which OTHER handle?
It's 1 handle per brah on SubTALK!! :o
I have only one handle here is Subtalk. I used a different handle name in Upoc because I like that and it's listed at the group's founder when you join that group.
I just discovered that this trip will actually be a REAL farewell trip because the segment of the Bergen County Line between WEST END interlocking and the Harmon Cove station will be abandonned by NJT effective Aug 4th due to some bright idea from the Secaucas Connection planners.
I will post further reminders as the time approaches. I will probably drive up to Hamelton and catch an NJT train from there.
Robert
Robert
Mid-day trains were cancelled and replaced with two buses (two buses are sufficient to cover off-peak service). Night and weekend schedules remained in place. All work was done during normal business hours.
That'll probably be the game plan this time too.
Jimmy
Jimmy
So NJ Transit (with a little help from the Allied Junction Corporation) decides to pull up the Bergen County Line tracks in order to use the right of way for an access road to an office complex. If this wasn't also a corporate welfare project, they could easily have constructed platforms along both the Main and Bergen County lines and had them both connect to the transfer station. Instead, we have an expensive new connector to divert Bergen County line trains off their natural right-of-way. What happens?
- Harmon Cove station disappears, and passengers are diverted to a shuttle bus.
- The shortest, fastest route to Hoboken gets ripped up, and Bergen County line trains have some beautiful new curves to negotiate. This includes the Metro-North expresses, which will soon gain a station stop. I really hope the new transfer station works as promised, and does shave 15 minutes off the commute to midtown, because it'll be making the downtown commute longer before it even opens.
I could whine about how slow the Main Line trains are when they run through Secaucus, but I figure there's probably a speed restriction during construction. Let's hope things right themselves.
And that's my mini-rant.
Since it's a saturday you could take a Waterfront Connection (RVL)train between Newark and Hoboken, the fare is exactly the same Hamilton-HOB as Hamilton-NWK. 11:17AM at Newark...
It isn't in the brochures. We know it because trains from Hoboken to EXPL can't go back to Hoboken (due to the track layout) and have to go to Newark. Trains from NWK can go back to Newark, but then there would be too many trains on the NWK line and not enough on the Hoboken line. Hence the round-robin. (though I've never seen a square-robin) This would be 100x better if you could stay on the train at NWK and not have to pay another fare :( :( :(
If you followed the published map, switched over at Grove for a 33rd street train, then gotten off at Pavonia to wait for a Hoboken train, you'd probably end up getting back on the first train.
2) Used the JFK-Express the middle-track on the Liberty Av?
2) On occasion, yes. But only between Rockaway Blvd. and 88th St.
2. No.
BMT service prior to '56?? The LIRR went to Aqueduct before the IND prior to '56.
During the 30's service would look something like this.
AM Rush Expresses leaving Lefferts ran express from Atlantic Avenue to Franklin Avenue. Locals from Lefferts Avenue or Grant Avenue ran to Fulton Ferry or Sands Street.
In the PM rush express ran from Park Row to Lefferts Avenue running express of the local track from Sands Street to Franklin Avenue and then express on the express track from Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Trains leaving from Sands Street ran express only from Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Locals ran from Fulton Ferry or Park Row ran to Grant Avenue to Lefferts Avenue.
The #13 14 Street-Fulton Street Express began running on September 23, 1936 and ran express on the 14 Street Line between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue. At first these trains ran express on the Fulton Street Line between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Streeton the local tracks but started making locals stops between these two stations as soon as the platforms were lengthened. This is the only time that regular express service ran on the Fulton Street Line east of Atlantic Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Bear in mind that the center track is a yard lead for Pitkin Yard by the portal area. Any "expresses" would have to switch over to the local track before leaving the "el" and descending to the portal.
Bill "Newkirk"
2. Nope since the middle track at 80 St leads to Pitkin yard
2) JFK expresses always took the local track from Grant to Howard Beach..
The R44/46 were purchased around the same time WMATA purchased their first set of cars ever, the Rohr 10-11-1200 series. Yet, the Rohr cars seem like they are in FAR better shape than the 44/46. Is it solely because the cars are being operated in the rougher environment of the NYCTA, or could it be that the Rohr cars were just built more sturdier than the 44/46?
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I don't know what the MTAs reason was, but I agree with the philosophy "simpler is better". It was simple, it worked, why go high tech?
The R46's are in good shape. The R44's, by contrast, are in deteriorating condtion, thanks to the fact that the St. Louis Crap Co. used Carbon Steel on the Belt rail, while the R46 have stainless steel bodies, except for their fronts. The R44's also have some other mechanical flaws. I believe it was stated that they have fewer compressors than any other car series out there. I forgot exactly what this does, but I think it makes their maintenance more costly, since it's not standard with the rest of the fleet.
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
Consider NYCT's last attempt at technology. The R44/46. The cars were huge flops. The R44 especially, since it was so muc of this 'new technology' that caused their failure. The R62/68 were basically updates of old cars. The r110 contract was their next attempt at modernization of the fleet.
Both of them structurally is in good shape although they are going on 30 years of service [imagine if the GOH/General Overhaul didn't exist particularly on the R44] and are wearing down but not much. The R44 was a troublesome car FROM DAY ONE! To this day the R44 is somewhat of a failure but improved DRAMATICALLY since its overhaul in 1991-1992 & it was a revolutionary for the TA in 1972 bringing 75 foot cars to the system.
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I don't know what the MTAs reason was, but I agree with the philosophy "simpler is better". It was simple, it worked, why go high tech?
Well there's your explanation basically. Also from what Jtrainloco said, the R44/R46 did have futuristic technology in its time but ultimately did NOT work out & he talks about the other cars as well made after the R44.
The R44/46 were purchased around the same time WMATA purchased their first set of cars ever, the Rohr 10-11-1200 series. Yet, the Rohr cars seem like they are in FAR better shape than the 44/46. Is it solely because the cars are being operated in the rougher environment of the NYCTA, or could it be that the Rohr cars were just built more sturdier than the 44/46?
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I hate to tell you but you are comparing apples to oranges here. There are very few things that the 1000 series Rohr car have in common with the NYCTA R44 and R46. Structurally the WMATA cars are very different then the NYCTA cars. The WMATA cars are something like 10,000 lbs 4535 kg lighter then the NYCTA cars of the same 75’ 22.86 m length. The aluminum bodies of the WMATA cars contribute to the structure integrity of the car. The stainless steel bodies on the NYCTA cars do not contribute to the structure of the car. The only thing the Rohr cars had in common with the R44 and R46 when they were delivered was the cam control
propulsion hardware.
I will admit that the environment that the NYCTA car were operated in was rougher then the environment WMATA has. It is also my opinion that if you were to run set of WMATA cars on the NYCTA they would require inspection on a schedule that is more rigorous then what they see down here in Washington to keep them running.
One important thing WMATA has done from day one is to maintained the part of the cars that the riders see very vigorously. A car that has a slashed seat or graffiti is pulled from service and not returned until corrected. The interiors have been replaced at least once in the last 15 years. Most of the Rohr cars have had their propulsion hardware upgraded to AC traction.
The common throttle brake control has a lot to do with the fact that the Rohr cars have a dynamic braking system and electro pneumatically controlled hydraulic disk brakes. All the extra stuff you see in WMATA car cab is related to the train control hardware that is used to run the trains.
Next time you are in a twin platform station, look at the lift points under the bottom edge of the car bodies on the Rohr cars. The lift points are under the door leaf that closest to the end of the car. Some of them have some pretty nasty dents.
John
As far as I know just the car marked with AC have AC traction propulsion. Now I could be wrong on this. I have never read anywhere that the entire fleet of Rohr cars were upgraded with AC traction propulsion. As for your 1028 assumption, I would agree.
John
I agree with most of the things John said here. You can make a crap car look good just by maintaining the parts that the pax see and painting it every now and again. Sometimes if you see rust it really doesn't matter because if the rust isn't in a place that is structurally important than rust is only a little more than a cosmetic nusiance. If you look at the MBTA orange line cars you will conclude they are in a worse condition than the MBTA red line 01500 fleet. If you look at the MDBF figures you would see that the orange line cars, which are newer, but more rusted out, are clearer superior mechanically.
Many parts in a railcar is replacable, so it is hard to tell from just looking at the railcar what kind of mechanical condition it is in. The MBTA orange line fleet is in the middle of an overhaul program and the revamped cars function a lot better mechanically speaking. I personally think rebuilding is actually very economical compared to buying new cars. Unfortunately the public likes to see new cars.
Another thing that may signal bad maintenance to the untrained eye -- the wheel flat -- in fact those can be corrected, the wheels need trued or the tread needs replaced. Doors that don't open might suggest bad light maintenance, but all you need to do is to replace or rebuild the door motor and that kind of problems will disappear. Really railcars are pretty difficult to break. The sort of thing that will condemn railcars are: rust in critical areas, frame cracks (from metal fatigue), and out-dated technology (which can usually be retro-engineered, but sometimes it is cheaper to build anew than to retro-engineer).
The stainless steel bodies on the NYCTA cars do not contribute to the structure of the car.
I am surprised by this, I would have thought most of the recent cars are monocoque bodies to prevent tele-scoping. So the R46's are still a box on top of a rigid frame?
AEM7
As far as I know yes. As far a telescoping goes, the anticlimbers on the ends of the cars are suppose to aide in preventing this but sometimes it doesn’t work. The WMATA wreck at Shady Grove (A15) the night of 01 06 96 the train parked on the Shady Grove Yard (A99) lead north of the station telescoped in to the first car of the train that over shot the station platform. Look at the photo on page 17 of the NTSB Report of the wreck.
John
It can be, though not always. You make some good points here. If the public wants to see a "new car," one can send it to the shop for scraping, polishing, painting etc, after the mechanical items have been taken care of, renewed etc.
WMATA has paid closer attention to aesthetics, and theWMATA fleet doesn't take nearly the pounding the MTA fleet takes (though, with time, MTA tracks are getting better too).
If all the platforms were 12 cars and the trains all 8 cars some people would still screw up their stops.
As they catch 1 of 100 that do it they crucify that one crew and it becomes a sort of joke.
J van Dorp
Engineer MNCR
Sure a overrun happens from time to time but when it DOES happen, the engineer's job security dramatically decreases in an instant. In NYCT when that happens for example, the T/O could get a serious punishment or even get fired! Sure the engineer is not a robot and he's human but they're just saying that it is dangerous.
Then I see this dope on this show run around in the NYC subway system. One minute he's reading something on the bench seat of an R62, and then he walks out of the car, but the car he walks out of what looks like an R40M!
Then he runs up the stairs of a subway station and I can see the side sign that is posted on each MTA subway station, the one that says "Subway" and had the MTA logo on the lower right corner, but the railing of the station entrance blocked the name of the station.
Eurostar has a special round trip 2nd Class fare of $90.00, and the air fare to Amsterdam is $113.00 higher than the air fare to London, so that is pretty much a wash, but car rental rates in Brussels are approximately $100.00 higher for three weeks than the rates for one month in Amsterdam.
Is the Eurostar ride worth the extra hassle and expense of traveling via London? If I do take the London route I will probably spend a few days there (without a car), but not go to Amsterdam at all (and I like to ride the Amsterdam trams and visit their interesting cafes).
Tom
Robert
Well of course not. On your honeymoon, no train ride should be a big deal. :-)
Thanks to you and all the others who responded to my query. I have decided on the simpler plan of going through Amsterdam. Call me old fashioned, but I liked catching the evening train from London to the Channel, taking the night ferry across and boarding another train in France. And I'll bet there are no outside doors to the individual compartments on the Eurostar anyway. :-)
Tom
PS: Look at "http://www.hse.gov.uk/railways/spads.htm"
At liitle bit about safety in England
But you don't really see much from inside the train. Whizzing along at 150 mph is nice, but the countryside isn't particularly interesting.
In a way the most interesting part was winding through the area south of London at low speeds. Lots of merging rail lines.
I'm going to Amsterdam on 1 August. I plan on "drinking" a lot of "coffee" at the cafés. :-)
I've heard that Amsterdam also has a district where ladies of the evening sit in shop windows displaying their charms to passerby.
Closed curtains on the windows indicate that there is a customer!
Amsterdam is a very tolerant city. Don’t be surprised if you smell smoke that didn’t come from ordinary tobacco in the cafes!…and that’s the only downside: as of the early 1990’s when I was last there, the Dutch smoked like chimneys (and high-tar cigarettes too!) and there were relatively few non-smoking areas.
John
I'd be more worried about what you get from these women that you can't see.
Alas, the last time I was in Amsterdam my wife would not allow me to do any window shopping. :-)
Tom
Do they still have the green doors across the ends of the street? It's been quite a while since I was on the Reeperbahn in St. Pauli, but that was a time before container ships when a ship would be in port for several days unloading and loading, and their crews would have liberty and plenty of pay in their pockets. It made for some pretty wild night life with several clubs booking young English rock bands that didn't sound half bad.
Tom
Thankfully this is a trend I’m seeing in Britain as well, which means that the standard of the average pub is way higher than when I left to come to the USA in 1983!
John
Well, they don't mean "hash BROWNS", das' fer sure.
Well sure. Pot is all over Amsterdam, but you have to get past the thick regular tobacco to smell it. The Dutch have their own brands, but the smell recalls Citanes and Disques Bleus (French brands).
Given the choice, I much prefer the smell of Pot, though my entire experience of smoking is one drag from a cigarette at age 10 (my mother gave it to me). I threw up in the sink, wasn’t allowed to have another breakfast. End of tobacco, and smoking in general.
My sisters used to smoke and on one occasion I contributed £20 towards some pot that went into hash brownies. Tried one, didn’t do anything and decided that alcohol was much better value for money!
But I still like the smell of pot smoke.
Not all of Europe share the same legal drinking age. In UK, it's 18. But countries like France, Italy, Spain do not have legal age for drinking. If they did, many Catholic churches would be in trouble.
Reading the other posts, I noticed that you live in Europe. Is it 18 in there? If so, where is it? Belgium? Holland? Just curious.
I'm Japanese but lived in France and England and have lived in NYC for the last 16 years. Welcome to Subtalk!
BTW, in UK it was 16 for smoking, 18 for drinking. In the US, it differed from state to state, but now it's 18 for smoking, 21 for drinking everywhere as far as I know.
It know the US ages :-)
Thats why i wrote it.
Yes. I lived there(well... suburbs), too. Still go there to show our son to the grandparents once a year.
There are two subway systems in Tokyo (and no free transfer in between). The Eidan and Municipal. Only a few lines have interchangeable equipment on the Eidan. The 4 Municipal lines have 3 different gauges and 4 different signaling system.
On subway line maps i've seen the two systems. Do you have to pay
only a little "difference" or have to buy a new tickte when transfering?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean there. The trains run left-handed as in London and the signals (if they exist on that line) are pretty much standard green-yellow-red coloured in most cases. After doing some research, here's what I found. This info may be a few years dated.
On the Eidan, the last ATS train ran in 1998 and only a few lines have signalling on the tracks. So it's mostly cab signalling.
On the Municipal, Asakusa line remains ATS. The three other lines are either ATC or ATO cab signalling.
As for the fare, it used to be that you get a minimal(10%) discount when you bought a through ticket. Now with all the different multiple ride passes, I don't know exactly how it works. Probably still a 10% discount for the second system. Season tickets would give you more discount.
NYC subway signaling shows for diverging yellow+distant info (green or
yellow). I don't understand how the driver know the allowed speed there.
(bad english knowledge)
What is used in Tokyo? Cab signaling is only extesion in my eyes and
doesn't matter - If it fails you have to use signals to continue driving.
But when cab signalling is in place, you don't see much of ground signalling. The ones in the cab are not an extension and probably the only signals, unless you are going through a switch or headed to a yard.
If they fail, the whole line stops unless the line shares some kind of ATS type of system. I guess the idea of cab signalling as the main thing is not what you want to believe. But in NYC too, MetroNorth don't have any on-the-tracks signals besides the absolutely necessary ones. The rest of them are most likely, only in the cab.
I don't understand how the driver know the allowed speed there.
By signs and signals... Well, believe it or not. Most NYC subway cars didn't have a speedometer until quite recently. They follow the signals. If you're going too fast, you'd trip the cock and you're in trouble.
As for Tokyo, I'm not an expert in signalling but I know that they were so different from line to line that you have to ask me about a specific line. Too much experiment and innovation, there...
This pdf file is about North America but explains well about train control.
Those pages showed up on a google search "Tokyo subway ATC ATO".
this one
People on this board often use html to insert images too.
Like:
<a href="http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr21/F44_Technology.html">this one</a>
People on this board often use html to insert images too.
<img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/smlogo.gif">
And we complain about NYCT...
In Japan, usually the employer pays the commute expenses of the employees. Some companies forces you to use the cheaper route, while the others will pay the shortest time route.
This practice is not common among Japanese companies in NYC (they most likely go the cheaper way if they did, and even more likely that they don't pay at all), but is practiced in some of them.
Nah, I never worked for one that did....
and the best chocolate in the world.
Also Amsterdam has Schipol airport, with good rail connections to the center city and a great duty free section. Try some Aud Gouda and see what you have been missing. You can then understand why “American Cheese” is an oxymoron!
I travelled on Eurostar from Waterloo to the Gard du Nord not long after it opened. Since my mother was paying, we went First Class which was nice–free champagne at our seats! However, as a train ride it wasn’t one of the world’s most interesting. The slow speed section from Waterloo to the tunnel was the scenic part (due to be replaced by the high-speed line to St Pancras), then the tunnel where there was nothing to see, and finally the French section where the train got up to speed through some boring stretches of industrial Normandy.
Have a great trip either way.
John
Brussels airport also has a rail connection to downtown. What it lacks is a real airline serving it, but that's another story.
Its neighbor, Luxembourg also has no trans Atlantic carrier. Although it may have one, I can't think of the name of a Danish airline. In fact, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark seem to share the multinational SAS.
Tom
No offense to the people in Luxembourg, but their county's small enough to be disregarded for these purposes.
SAS is the flag carrier for Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Finland has it's own carrier, Finnair.
I suppose the award for the most obscure foreign airline to serve the United States would have to be Uzbekistan Airways, although you could make a good argument for Ethiopian Airlines, Biman Bangladesh, and TACV Cabo Verde :)
My vote is still with Amsterdam!
Direct train service to Central Brussels is about every 20 minutes. Unlike Amsterdam, or Frankfurt, or CDG in Paris there is NO direct International Train service, you must first go to Midi or Nord and transfer (the airport line is a spur off the mainline).
Alas, SABENA is no more; a sign of things to come as "flag" carriers are being forced to privatize and compete. Economy measures abound - at least this winter on UA, the drinks (alcoholic) in coach were included, as were the standard hot towel service. This spring on KLM, the towel service was abandoned (in coach) but drinks were still included. I noticed a small item from CO stating that they were charging the standard US price for a drink on all TransAtlntic flights. I flew CO on a trip to the Cape, and return from Montreal last year after an absence from them of 3 years. The BEST part were the flights out of CLE on the RJ's (op'ed by CO Exp).
Oh yes, booking on Air France to BRU - of course via CDG; you will sometimes be routed via TGV from CDG. A pleasure after the ubiquitous jumbo trip.
That said, Europe needs to get rid of all of the national flag-carrier subsidies/sweetheart deals. British Airways is at least private, though it has too many of the landing slots at Heathrow. Then there can be real competition across the Atlantic and we can see some service that meets demands.
John
Greece will keep Olympic Airlines going because it's the "official carrier" of next year's Olympic games in Athens.
What used to be British Rail Southern Region (no idea about what the operating companies are called now) has third rail. The Eurostar run has catenary the whole way.
The speed-limiting factor on the British side is the winding route through Kent. This is being addressed with new track and a new terminus between King’s Cross and St Pancras.
Aside: has anyone seen what is going to happen to the Waterloo terminus? Abandoned? Used for something else?
No, the Eurostar runs on third rail in the UK. See this photo of a Eurostar at Beckenham Junction from the window of a Croydon Tram.
Presumably the new high speed line is catenary powered, I haven't seen any photos yet but I'm sure there's some on the web.
I should apologize, because, as David has pointed out I was wrong. The “subway” method of electric current collection is generally called “third rail” in English.
I’m still looking for construction photos of the new connection to King’s Cross/St Pancras. I assume it will use catenary.
Does anyone know where the changeover occurs?
Where do you live?
John
/Shrug... s_it happens.
I don't remember the last time I rode an R-46 on the E, although it was within the last year. Also, after 9/11 many E trains were R-46 for at least 6-8 weeks. -Nick
Wayne
1) How many tracks are there on each level of Grand Central Station. Not subway tracks.
2) How many loop tracks are there?
3) Where can I find pictures of those boxy locos that the NY Central used to use. Also specifications like horsepower and wheel arrangements?
Any help will be appreciated
3) You can try this website in general http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html and this in specific http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-elec.html
I'd love to. But when I tried it on Monday afternoon, two cops and their german sheapard convinced me that I was trespassing by being just past the doorway between the lower level concourse and the "track area" and not heading to a train. I wasn't even on the ramps that head down. I was also not beyond a big red sign saying something about the "area beyond this point is only for MNR employees" or something. So I turned around and walked out, and behind me I heard one of them say "and no photos!" Photos are certainly allowed in the main concourse, so what, they have different rules for track level? Are these rules posted anywhere?
BTW, many thanks for that great "frozen in time" photo.
You're very welcome.
Tell that to the idiot that told me I "wasn't supposed to be taking photos here" last Wednesday in the Concourse. Although that was after I snapped one photo in the track area, but this was on the other side of the station, so that had nothing to do with him. Oh well, I was done for the day anyway, as I had to get to an appointment, but it sure wouldn't stop me from going back.
The tracks are another story. Like I already said, years ago I use to constantly snap photos there on the platforms and no one bothered you even if you were just walking on the platforms not taking photos. I should have known it changed just like everything else did in the last few years, but I really didn't think about it until last week.
Try visiting GCT during PM rush hour, and enter the platforms from the new 46th St crossover. As long as you keep moving around no one will ever notice you're not getting on a train. The only issue would be if there were signs somewhere that said "no persons allowed on platforms except with ticket".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
2) I think there is only 1 loop remaining in the entire station. I think it's lower level. The last time I was down there, I noticed the loop wasn't in use. Too many obstructions preventing the loop from being used.
3) Probably the only place to find pics of NYC boxy locos might be in the different railfan books about NYC and the old trains.
1:1 scale :). It's not coming out of my pocket. Are they trying to unload any?
They can be contacted here:
Mohawk & Hudson Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society
Box 2131,
Albany, N.Y. 12220-0131.
or email at:
jhart1@nycap.rr.com
they are still in daily use however.
2. If I have a ticket for Kew Gardens(Zone 1) and I go to Penn Station(Zone 1) I could do that?
Yes, you'll pay a step up fare or the difference between peak and off peak. You do not have to pay any penalty fare. I've done this myself in the past.
I'm not sure about question #2.
Bill "Newkirk"
2. I'm not sure what your asking. If you buy a ticket from Bellmore to Kew Gardens, and instead stay on that train and go to Penn, it shoulden't be a problem. My LIRR monthly says Bellmore to Flatbush, and I go to penn often enough without a problem. I've even done Garden City to Flatbush and Hicksville to Penn without any problems.
You pay a step-up, which is the difference between the discounted off-peak fare and the full (but not on-board) peak fare. If you do this with all ten trips on an off-peak ten-trip ticket, you'll wind up paying exactly what you would have paid for a peak ten-trip ticket.
Word on the street is that collectors don't make coin change any longer, so have quarters ready.
If I have a ticket for Kew Gardens(Zone 1) and I go to Penn Station(Zone 1) I could do that?
Are you asking whether or not that ticket will get you to that station? Yes.
On the LIRR, the zones are the only thing that matters as far as your fare is concerned. The branch and station stamps are mere formalities. A collector may question your destination, but this is not to challenge your ticket's validity for transportation, it's only to help you get where you're going.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
Mail & Ride Zone 10 tickets on the main line issued since last May's zone consolidation read "Medford." That's rather amusing as over 99% of the people using these tickets travel from Ronkonkoma rather than Medford.
Photos, including the beautiful LV F7, and a shot of the canal swing bridge, on this Webshots page, beginning with the third photo.
I guess they wouldn't take my money because I've worked with Tony and the CMSL in setting up West Jersey Chapter NRHS charters.
I assume M-407 can run under its own power. Its engine was running to operate the air conditioning. I missed the distinctive sound of the Budd Car's motors revving up during acceleration.
Robert Ray=T/O who was drunk and caused 14th Street wreck.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert Ray=T/O who was drunk and caused 14th Street wreck.
Peace,
ANDEE
Runs in the family, brah..
Maybe it's because the ones at Little Silver are out of order so frequently, but I've notified the crew on two occasions - both times they had not been told prior - and the fee has been waived. The credit card/debit card feature is almost always out of order, but these two Sunday mornings neither machine would take cash either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only one is at my station, which can be a problem at times. Granted, Metro-North expects passengers to arrive early enough so there won't be a rush. But maybe if my station had a few machines, then one machine not working wouldn't be such a big deal. -Nick
More
Trouble
Ahead
I agree that this is a disgrace. But here is the real kicker; even if I did have time to call the number so maybe they can notify the crew, there are still no waivers on any conditions. -Nick
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, it seems sarcastic, but it's what you get if you read between the lines. MTA likely gets charged a per-transaction fee, so it's to their benefit to place a minimum limit on transactions. It's not as if Visa/MC found this out in their own investigation, rather, NY1 decided to be a snitch:
"After NY1 told Visa and Mastercard that New York City Transit charges a $4 minimum, both credit card companies said they would take action"
Seriously, most sane people don't use credit cards for small transactions. If you have a credit card, you can probably afford to spend an extra $2 and get a round trip fare on your card.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
""...Bloomberg the ultimate sanctamonious hipocrite.""
Sure he could have! It's spelled "hypocrite".
Campaign for Real English!
Bloomberg did not make the law and did not order the NYPD to enforce the law in the rockaways.
The truth be told as one who participated in numerous keg parties on the beaches of the rockaways in my younger years and one who has witnessed in the past few years neighborhood outcry to stop the parties, the new alcohol on the beach effort in the rockways is enforced hard core in early july for the past 6 years.
The local democratic politicians are doing thier best to make bloomberg look bad. What is he supposed to do, say hey I support drinking on the beach after dark which just happens to be against the law. NO he pledged to honor and enforce the law, it is unfortunite that he was photographed sipping wine at the symphony in central park where it has been unoffically permitted to drink wine at such events. I've seen it in marine park when the symphony comes to town
The fact is that Bloomberg has done a masterfull job managing the city through terrible finacial times. Does anyone remeber the 1970's. One could argue that the city was in worst shape finacially then in the 1970's yet looking around, services are at about the same level as they were 3 years ago
The democratic party is running scared inventing issues to make bloomberg mad trying to distract the public from the amazing feet bloomberg pulled off reorganizing the old board of ed
Just a small recap on the improvements at the board of ed that will begin to show fruit in the next few years
Elliminated 2000 duplicate staff at the school construction authority reducing the cost of building new schools by 1/3
Elliminated hundreds of dead wood employee's at the community school districts
Instituted a cohecive educational frame work from k-12 instead of the 3 separate learning environments (k-5, 6-8, Middle school, High School) Each student gets a "grow reports" at the end of each year showing the student's weakness which get's passed on to the student new teachers to help them target areas that are needed to be targeted
Added accountablity at all levels. Principals and teachers will be monitored from the regional centers and coaches and professional development staff will help teachers especially new teachers like myself to teach the leasons better.
Reduced the size of the central education department allowing the city to sell off 110 livingston street for $45 million. The property will generate a few more million a year in added property tax plus will provide a much needed additioal live performance space to the downtown brooklyn area
The do nothing democratic party who are in the middle of a huge scandal for which civil court judges paid the brooklyn democratic party for thier judge positions and mark green misapropiated campaign funds. If green were elected mayor instead of Bloomberg, we would be under control of the state control board, 1/3 of the police officers would have been layed off, garbage would be everywhere and the middle class tax base would be fleeing the city leaving more people who can not pull their own weight.
Bloomber a hypocrit, he has done practically everything he promised in his campaign. NOONE IS PERFECT and Bloomberg is far from perfect. The improvement he has made in city government will be looked on positively in the future
The revamped Education Department
The smartly put together 311 system where citizens need only call one place and are able to get directed to the proper city agency comlete with operators in over 20 languages plus tracking numbers for which follow ups and accountablity is possible. The local democratic politicans hate the 311 system because it take away from them the one thing they could offer thier constituants, help with who to call. One only needs to know 311
The next time you want to call bloomberg names, look at the facts not the fiction the local tabloid media puts forth. Every 5-6 years the daily news re-runs the same ticket blitz series of article.
...took a beautiful piece of public architecture intended for the Museum of the City of New York and turned it into a cubicle farm.
just proves a double standard - filthy rich drink their wine while the average middle class joe gets busted!!!
If the law is to be enforced it must be enforced equally - NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS!!
There is mo filithy rich people attending the symphony in marine park. Once again you are appling a sterotypical respomce that only the filthy rich enjoy the symphony, simply not true
As per the NY daily news http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/100423p-90770c.html
people were drinking away beer at CI without getting a ticket, a far poorer crowd then the middle class rockaways July 4th party
If you know anything about the area of the rockaways where the party for which the summons were issued, the local community has been complaining for year about roudy drunkin people on the beach at night. July 4th was the mother party of the year on the beach. COULD IT BE THAT PEOPLE CALL IN AND COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DRINKING
That is the most likly senario
"Beer and beach lovers rejoice: You can crack open a cold one on Orchard Beach or Coney Island without much fear of a police summons."
The mayor is getting caught up in net of the democratic machine that wants him out at all cost because he is dismantling the influence at many city agencies by streamlining the beurocracy and elliminating many cronnie positions that the democratic machine has traditionally assigned to thier supporters.
It is against the law to drink on the beach and at park events. Tradidtionally unless the crowd is rowdy or public complaints are filed, the police rarely enforce the law on drinking..
It would not be far fetch to say that the incident in the rockaways was not a setuyp to make bloomberg look bad. Not far fetched at all. Like I mentioned in a previous post, thier has traditionally been complaints of roudy drinkers on the beach in the rockaways
The fee is a fixed percentage of the amount charged by the card holder. A $10 charge costs the MTA the same percentage as a $2 charge.
Not unless they've changed the rules since I managed a small business. We were assessed a per-transaction fee and a sliding percentage based on the transaction amount (although a $2 and a $10 charge would have been the same percentage, plus the fixed fee).
Major merchants - and in particular government agencies - often have special contracts negotiated that don't fit the standard terms and conditions. It wouldn't surprise me if the MTA was one of those and is indeed exempt from the "no minimum purchase" rule, despite what the spokespeople for Visa and MC said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmmm, in order to receive permission to allow customers to use credit cards, you have to accept a 50 cent charge on a $2.00 transaction. And all the credit card companies have this rule.
Can you say monopoly?
Yes, but can you DEFINE monopoly?
Or even better: MONOPSONY!
Depends on the fine print in their contracts,
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
The nasty clerk said what are you going to do walk out?
Walk out is exactly what I did. Plus wrote a letter to the store owner expressing my displeasure with both his policy and the workers comments and the fact that he will be losing about $500 in sales a year as I take my business elsewhere.
Elias
AMEX charges a huge transaction fee to merchants for travelers checks. A store such as radio shack will normally accept them
As per visa/mastercard and thier hatred of minimum balance's. My father mentioned to me at the dinner table this evening that when credit cards first came out that most stores required a $20 min a large sum of money back then which got the public trained to use credit cards only for large purchance's. The brains at the visa/mastercard did a study and found out that people spend far more money in the 0-20 range then they do in the 20-1000 range and worked to speed up the processing times of transactions to make such transactions possible. It now takes less time to pay by credit card in many cases then paying by case. Not the case even 10 years ago. The trick is that visa/mastercard moved the aproval proccess onto the stores internal computers instead of having to dial out for each comfirmation
Not true. AMEX, like other issuers of traveler's checks, has established a service charge which is paid by the purchaser of the traveler's check - 1% of face value, IIRC, although many banks and credit unions waive this fee for their customers (both credit unions and the one commercial bank where I have accounts waive them). They are paid for the face value of the checks at the time the checks are delivered to the bank and make their profit off the "float" between the time the bank pays them for the check and the time the check clears - often months or even years later. (I believe the average time between issuance of a traveler's check by AMEX to a bank and the time the check actually clears AMEX is in excess of six months; this figure includes the AMEX Gift Cheques.) To a receiving merchant they are the equivalent of a guaranteed check - credited to their account the same as cash, no hold on the funds and no fee or percentage assessed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Small merchants often get screwed with per trascaction charge, the MTA should not be subject to these charges.
The post office accepts credit cards for even small transactions. Other businesses require higher amounts.
MTA's policy is not unreasonable.
Not only is MTA's policy not unreasonable, I wouldn't expect it to change, either. I doubt anything will come from this other than perhaps this SubTalk discussion.
Visa and MC have little to gain by attempting to enforce their policy on the MTA. As I see it, the MTA's likely reaction would be to simply no longer accept Visa and MC at their machines. They would still be able to accept ATM cards and cash -- and AmEx would then allow them to have minimums for their charges. Given the number of different ways people today have electronic access to cash, I wouldn't think there would be too many customers truly inconvenienced by such a change.
The "action" promised by Visa and MC will probably be a strongly worded letter in an envelope which has "Please discard without reading" stamped on it.
CG
Doesn't even have to be a real credit card. I seldom carry cash, and I use my Visa Check Card for everything, including buying MetroCards.
Mark
I also use our one credit card for everything, even though:
1) I don't get any reward points, and
2) I have never used the credit -- the balance is automatically deducted from our checking account every month.
Cash can be lost or stolen, so I carry little of it, a habit left over from the 1980s and early 1990s. It is also a pain to get it. A credit card provides a montly list of what I spent on, so I can compare it with our budget. I have no idea what the cash was spent on.
That said, I would never buy a single ride, and I think this whole issue is made up nonsense. I can understand someone who is on welfare, and refusing to comply with the work requirement and thus docked some benefit, not being able to afford more than the one round trip per month to the welfare office. But a one way? The only time I have ever taken mass transit just one way is when there has been an auto trip the other way, and people who own, borrow, or rent autos are not poor.
A recent article in the Kansas City Star related the activities of a used car dealer who buys cars at auction, many with over 100,000 miles on the odometer, and sells them for $70 up front and 18% annual interest. Total principal financed: two times blue book value. His target: poor people. And the dealer is lax about getting title paperwork done.
His attorneys files 20 lawsuits per month whenever the people buying his cars miss a payment. One guy even got sued after he returned the car!
Ah, the infamous "buy here pay here" used-car marketplace. High markups and interest rates are said to make this field quite profitable despite double-digit default rates. Payments usually must be made weekly, rather than monthly as with legitimate financing, so defaults can be recognized (and cars repossessed) that much more quickly.
Some dealers go so far as to add timer devices that cut off a car's ignition each week. When a weekly payment's due, the borrower has to go to the dealership to pay in person, personal checks not accepted, and have the timer reset. If the buyer doesn't appear on the payment due date, the car won't start.
Is this valid at all gas stations or only one particular brand. My sunoco card only pays 4% and have to use sunoco stations only.
I'll have to take a closer look at nexts months AAA magazine
Don't understand why they have to go through this hassle with single ride riders.
Just another example of bureaucratic stupidity.
LT stock is thicker than single-use metrocards, and your comparison with a one-day travelcard, which gets possibly 6 uses (LT is a check in and out system) is unfair.
London residents: what does LT use for monthly and annual travelcards? I would guess that they are plastic-based, since they need to be flexible to go through the machines.
John
The reason is simple, the credit cards give a rebate of points for each transaction
As for the MTA not taking credit cards for single rides it does not make finacial sense.
It cost far more to send out a person to refill and maintain an MVM more often then it does to pay a tiny transaction fee of about 1-2%. If the MTA does not have these good terms with the credit card issueres then sombody made a serious contract mistake
Credit cards are great for ALL transactions. I think that fast food restaurants should finally start accepting credit cards.
Some do. But it slows the transaction down, especially at the drive-thru.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know that some now do, even in the New York area, but I have yet to see one in this area that accepts CCs. When I was 17, in addition to having had some very good beer I purchased with a fake ID (my name was Brian McGee, I stayed up listening to Queen), I didn't have a bank account but I had a credit card, I had to find an ATM and make a large cash advance because I had run out of money.
American Pig is also correct that many fast food resturants especially near highways are accepting EZ_pass
If you have a networked cash register (this includes the MVMs), with a permanent connection to the credit card authorizer, then the amount is already known, and the network time for the transaction is negligible.
I presume it’s something regulatory, but I’m surprised that the local Bells don’t offer a cheap low-speed internet service that’s always connected. Should be cheap to do: just requires a terminal server in the CO, and that could probably be integrated with the switch itself these days!
John
Peace,
ANDEE
But we've been through this before. There are no blanket rules -- there are contracts between the credit card issuer and the vendor. The standard contract requires that vendors accept credit cards for all transactions, but the MTA is a large enough vendor that surely it has a custom contract. I haven't seen the contract myself, but I doubt the MTA's lawyers would settle for one that retained the usual no-minimum clause given the minimum imposed by the MVM's.
In other words, I doubt there's anything here.
http://usa.visa.com/
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you think Visa wants to risk the fees that they get on monthly commuter rail tickets each month in order to get the revenue from the occasional $2 purchase?
CG
Master Card is headquartered in Purchase NY (Westchester County). You don't think they were more than well aware of the MTA's minimums? Surely many of their own employees have used the machines.
They know all about it and have chosen not to pursue the issue.
Both credit card companies have department who's sole purpose is to track down, fine or recoke users who violate the no Minimums rule. Both companies have been spending million of dollars a year premoting the use of thier services for people to use on everyday purchaces, not enforcing the rules defeats the purpose
smarty pants
I strongly doubt Visa or Mastercard would revoke their agreement with the MTA, even if the contract allows them to do so.
I also can't imagine that an item such as MTA's unwillingness to allow $2 purchases with a card wouldn't be covered in their contracts. The MTA almost certainly covered itself in the contracts; they have very cautious lawyers.
Thier may have been a gentlemens agreement of don't ask and we won't sell.
IF Visa and Mastercard make a stink expect the MTA to allow $2 purchances at MVM's. In the long run it will save the MTA money by increasing MVM uptime and reducing the need further for Token booths. To be honest, if a person has a credit card, illustrates normal riding behabior, 99% of the time said person will be more then one ride thus any reduction in revenue chewed up by any transaction fee is negligiable
Factor in the cost saving vs having extra S/A on duty and increased MVM maintance, and the fact a person with a credit card in very few instances will charge only one fare. It makes good business sense to allow single ride credit card purchaces. Plus the MVM's process credit card transactions FAST.
It Takes me less then 20 secounds to navigate the screen, select my card and pay with my credit card. Faster then feeding a cripled dollar into the dollar slot or feeding 8 quarters into the change slot
The real problem with the MVM is that they do not return $8 in change. Simply replacing the unneeded quarters hopper with an additional dollar coin hopper would solve the problem
Perhaps an additional part of the reason is that MTA doesn't want to reward what it considers its "worst customers". They've clearly trying to drive people away from the single rides (no Metrocard transfer, good only for two hours). Why should they then go foot the bill so somebody can get Airline miles or a cash rebate by purchasing one.
MTA is saying in effect that the single ride costs $2 -- never a penny less -- and that you get no perks for buying it.
CG
You must wake up every morning and look at the glass and see it half empty
The reason why the MTA suits most likly decided that single ride purchaces would be case only are
1) Possible transaction fee
2) The common perception that it takes longer to process a credit card transaction then a cash transaction. At MVM's this is no the case
It costs the MTA a lot more to sell a single ride vs a customer buing multiple rides. I estimated that it may cost up to nearly $.75 a transaction including cost of s/a, MVM, mvm maintance etc. It is no secret that the MTA gives you EXTRA's if you buy multiple rides. But in the case of single ride credit card sales, it is actually bennificial for the MTA to all such sales. As I pointed out before, if you 99% of people who charge their metrocard purchaces are going to buy $10 anywhy to get the discount.
The other 1% will not cost the MTA much and will silence the critics who are looking to make thier name at the MTA expense. If you look at how the MTA is run today, it is run better today then it has operated in the last 50 years.
If I did, wouldn't my kitchen smell really bad too?
I'm not convinced that this decision has as much to do with the transaction fee as some earlier posters thought. After all, what real good does a $4 minimum do for anybody?
Perhaps it has to do with the traceability of the paper metrocards and the need to honor the refund and dispute resolution policies of the credit card companies?
Or, perhaps more likely, they just want to make the $2 card as inconvenient as possible.
CG
In the MTA's case each side has plenty of power -- I think the MTA actually has more power -- each has so much power that diddly squat issues like whether or not you can buy a $2 metrocard when you can buy a $4 metrocard become the proverbial pimple on the elephant's fanny.
CG
Elias
Anyway, I exercised my rights under Federal Law, by submitting a letter to my Credit card issuer explaining my dispute with NYCT. So a little over a month later, I was credited with the $63 and NYCT lost out.
BTW, I am very glad you went the other way and won, it's just too bad that you had to go through it at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
So, NYCT lost the $63 from my card issuer reimbursing them AND an additional $63 was lost because the other person who found my card and used it for the entire period. Thats $126 in the hole for just being dumb.
So I knew that I won my case.
I don't think they currently have that ability. This is why MTA cannot yet offer an Insured MetroCard - because you have to be able to cancel a card before you issue a replacement.
With all due respect to "Kool-D," the "won't he heard from the MTA clerk should have been "can't."
However, that capability is coming.
'
Why do people post about things they know NOTHING about.
The MTA regularly cancels lost or stolen student or reduced fare Metrocards. They also cancel cards where the central server finds a discrepancy because the card was copied.
Sorry, the MTA holds all the cards here. Visa/MC/Amex are just regulations, not laws. If MTA cancels their contract with the credit card companies, they'll be out a lot of $$$.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not true, except for those who never eat out, always prepare food from scratch, never go to movies or other (non-free) entertainment, don't have cable TV, etc. All it takes is a one-time $10 investment to reduce the effective fare from $2.00 to $1.67, and $10 is easily obtained by foregoing one of those luxuries once or twice (or, rather, postponing them until after 25 rides).
The real problem is one of education. Too few people in this position are familiar with the concept of saving. Every last penny earned in one paycheck must be spent before the next paycheck comes.
There should be an MVM at the northbound entrance, but there's no need for a booth -- not many people go north from Jackson, and I don't think the station is so busy that afternoon rush crowds overwhelm the HEET's.
Thankfully, finacial wise, I'm doing much better these days.
My point is thus, do not judge others or their financial status or better yet:
Do not judge a man 'til you have walked a mile in their shoes.
I feel better now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Statistics show over and over that people who jump turnstlyes commit acts of vandalism and crime.
Hey Douce, where is out protector and needed security professional the S/A. If you listen to the TWU they provide security. If all these people are evading the fare it is obvious that s/a provide near zero security to riders
If the CCTV is monitored by security professionals they will see the actual incident and call police much sooner then waiting for a passenger to contact a s/a who are often a football field away from the place of the incident
"Prople jump over the turnstles because they know the chances of getting nabbed are slim at best. With CCTV, the only way someone will get caught is if they hang around after doing their deed. Most prople simply are not going to wait. They'll jump because their train is waiting there. "
If the CCTV system is monitored and police can be notified of the perpetraitors decription, where he is, or what train he jumped on by radio or preferable via a handheld PDA device that could recieve picture to allow police to properly identify the perpertraitor.
Such systems are not that expensive and far less expensive then having dedicated S/A sitting in booths to sell fares for which fewer and fewer people need to use token booths. Transit check metrocard gold resgistrations are up 40% per months since march as per the NYTIMES.
The pictures of the turnstyle jumper or even short videos can be transmitted via wi-fi(802.11b/c) or the emerging less prone to interferance ZigBee protocol http://www.internetnews.com/wireless/article.php/2233951
On the contrary -- if the NYCT and NYPD systems are linked, the police can actually see the culprit on video.
IT"S THIER OWN FAUAT. THE RIDING PUBLIC SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THIER INCOMPITENCE
The good news is that I made $3.5k today
The Bad news, I mispelled a few words in my subtalk posts
Back to work monday morning
He has no reason.
His only purpose is to keep stirring the pot.
Don't reply to his "posts" and he'll go away.
No truer words were ever spoken. Those who are suggesting that the very poor can afford to invest $10.00 in a Metrocard have probably never been in the situation of having only $10.00 in their pocket with three days to go until more money is coming in, and bills outstanding for all of the expected money.
It is really no different than having enough money to go to Costco and save money by buying 48 rolls of toilet paper and 24 bars of soap, four tubes of toothpaste, and a fifty lb drum of laundry detergent, and paying about $120 at the checkout counter for things that might cost $150.00 if bought in smaller quantities. Those who have enough money to invest in more goods (or services with subway rides) than they need immediately save money. To suggest that those who do not have the excess funds to take advantage of the savings are stupid is nothing more than a manifestation of the Calvinist belief that those who are not rich are ungodly.
Tom
Hmmm. As long as the extant system is not based only on meeting the needs of the "lowest common denominator". IOW, it's a damn shame that some of the riders can't afford to take advantage of the available small savings given to advance ride purchasers. But that doesn't change the need to have those minor savings based, a little, on a bit of frugality on the purchasers part. Consider it a goal to aspire to.
Hmmm. As long as the extant system is not based only on meeting the needs of the "lowest common denominator". IOW, it's a damn shame that some of the riders can't afford to take advantage of the available small savings given to advance ride purchasers. But that doesn't change the need to have those minor savings based, a little, on a bit of frugality on the purchasers part. Consider it a goal to aspire to.
The percentage is closer to 99% then 90%. The fact is that if you commute to work at least 2 days a week, buying at least $10 at a time makes sense and does not effect your budget in any way no matter your income unless you plan on jumping the turnstyle a few times.
I remember people when I worked at DOI who complained they could not afford to spend $15 on a metrocard at a time. These small minded people got paid bi-weekly just like me and rode 10 rides a week just like me. One could not get it in thier thick head that it made sense.
Rather illogical. If these "working poor" people cannot afford to buy more than one fare when thy're heading to work, how can they afford a fare to get home from work?
I know that may sound crass but I have seen it often enough.
Well - if you can't take the HEET, stay out of the station.
who pays thier salaries?
The TWU and other suckers who they can persuad to donate under the premise that they are helping people.
It's all the political game. Unless you see politics from the inside as a game of power, you may not truely understand the full magnitude of the situation
Another political entity that serves no real purpose is the Boruough president office
Despite a staff of dozens of suits, nothing substainal occurs at the BP office
Can anyone tell me what positive has ever come out of the city concil
The concil idiots basically vote as per the speaker and the local democratic machine.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or how about 4,352 Free Students who boarded a bus that was "Not In Service" on June 10th ... N-O-T
The system's data base has enough errors in it that we don't need to help it.
Peace,
ANDEE
The est interest is to move to a more auotmated systme for fare sales and collection
In fact they should licence out metrocard encoders to third party retailers such as newstands and bodegas similar to the lotto resellers network.
The third party entitly could sell metrocards in any denomination he/she chooses.
Peace,
ANDEE
Transit chek metrocard subscriptions are rising at a pace of 40% a month. Plus the city concil is preposing a bill to require any business that employs more then 50 employees to offer transit chek to thier employee's Each one of these riders will NOT BE BUYING A FARE IN STATION.
Bring fare sales to where the people are, in the local bodega's, newstand, resturants, supermarkets and gas stations. Providing metrocard encoders will lower the upfront cost of selling metrocards and will double overnight the number of merchants who sell metrocard.
Plus any LEGALLY employed worker who rides transit reguarly and does not participate with the easy transit chek program can easily afford to prepurchace 5 rides(2.5 days worth of fares at at time)
This would also reduce the presure at MVM's which will largly sell to the occasional tranit rider
As a regular transit rider, I purchase my fare media ONLY from MVM's. I'm not going to make an EXTRA trip to some local store in order to buy a Metrocard.
The stores will have simialar metrocard encoders as the s/a currently have. Diverting as little as 15% of metrocard sales to third party retailer will significantly reduce the maintance requirement of MVM's.
Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
ALL customers riding the subway enter through a station, it makes the most sense to do sales there. I am not going to start buying newspapers every morning. I am not going to start buying coffee ANY morning.
I need to pickup an unlimited ride card for tommorrow(really I do) If I knew for sure that I could buy a monthly unlmited at the store near the bus I'd head over on my way to the bus and pick one up.
Since they don't have a metroccard encoder and they may not carry or be out of monthly unlimited's I need to jump in my car and use the MVM at the station.
ALL customers riding the subway enter through a station, it makes the most sense to do sales there. I am not going to start buying newspapers every morning. I am not going to start buying coffee ANY morning.
Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
Hopefully they do not do so as many people in the city do not need to ride the subway.
Why would you need to buy a newspaper every morning. 90%+ of the daily riders who ride the subways enter the fare control with money already on thier metrocards.
Those who do not still have the option of using an MVM. It is more cost effective to the MTA and to subway riders to push some of the cost per sale to outside vendors
"Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
Hopefully they do not do so as many people in the city do not need to ride the subway."
People working at these companies have the option of participating in the transitchek program or not participate. The point simply states is that fewer people will need to purchaces a metrocard becasue the metrocards are refille dautomatically thru payrole deductions
I shouldn't be forced to go to an outside store EVER to buy a Metrocard. Unless there is no subway station nearby.
Those who do not still have the option of using an MVM. It is more cost effective to the MTA and to subway riders to push some of the cost per sale to outside vendors
Outside vendors don't want to subsidize the MTA, nor should they.
Why do stores put items on sale sometimes at a loss? To get people into thier store where once there will buy other items that make the store money. Milk is a common staple item where store owners offer at a good price to get people in the store. Selling metrocards is the same type of draw.
No one is forcing you to buy from third party retailer. Many will choose to because it fits their lifestyle
Peace,
ANDEE
My point is thus, do not judge others or their financial status or better yet:
Do not judge a man 'til you have walked a mile in their shoes.
I feel better now.
Peace,
ANDEE
working class people get paid once every one or two weeks just like the rest of us
If they need to take 10 rides a week, whether they buy all ten at one time or one at a time, they will not get another cash infusion until thier next pay check
Since the discount program kicks in at only 5 rides, half the weekly need of the average working class person, it makes no difference whether they buy 5 rides at a time or buy one ride at a time
The $2 non discount rate covers the additional cost of providing addtion S/A on duty and MVM's to sell the fares
I think that I may still have one at Mom and Dad's.
Chip
At one time when my fatehr was out of work we ate pasta for 15 straight days because it was all my mother could afford. The point is simple, if you are going to use 3-5 rides a week especially if you are poor you need to find a way to save the extra two dollars even if it means not buying your child a little extra. Growing up toys and present s were for birthdays and christmas only. Other then that no extras's, no fast food, and almost no prepared food from outside the house. This allowed my parent to save for a downpayment on a home for which they now in thier early 70's do not need to worry as much
People must take personal responcibility seriously
I can tell you about POVERTY .... I live UPSTATE. Taxes are almost the same as NYC, but the income is 1/3 that. I've LIVED in trees without a roof (OR the luxury of cardboard to keep the rain out) ... I've BEEN "evicted" ... I've BEEN so damned poor that I *couldn't* try to get a job. I've PLEADED with welfare offices to give me a LOAN that I would repay if ONLY they'd front me the money for a pair of shoes and a SUIT to go on interviews with. BUZZZZZZZzzz ... system ain't DESIGNED to make you presentable to ***GET*** a job. STILL ain't :(
Folks that have met me in person may have noticed I was missing a few teeth. I STILL AM! I meant to get that fixed three years ago, but ain't had the money to do so. If I was in a position (we'll conveniently forget that I'm 53 years old and CAN'T get hired ANYWHER just because of my AGE) to look for another job somewhere, the TEETH would be enough that I wouldn't stand a chance. FORGET the "corporate HMO program" issues at MY age.
PHUCK the republicans. Period. President buy you a new pair of shoes. :(
<< Rafael Munoz, who has owned a newsstand on the street below the station for two decades, said he stopped selling MetroCards when the fare went up in May. At the time, he said, the MTA reduced his take for every $100 sold from 6 percent to 4 percent. "It wasn't worth it," he said. >>
Hey, way to serve the community Rafael! Nice!! :-D
The MTA needs to provide retailers metrocard encoders so that they do not need to carry costly inventory of cards that the current retail program requires.
4% profit with minimal outlay of cash is very good
4% profit where one must lay out money is not as good.
The terminals are essentially free as many will come from closed tooken booths. Modern computer networking makes not that difficult to intergrate the terminals into the MTA network
Does anyone know, or have any proof one way or the other? There is 1 picture on this site of car# 6804 (same number as one of the models)....but the roof is either dirty as hell....or it really is maroon. There are some shiny spots on the roof, but I can't tell if that is silver peeking through the dirt. Can anyone shed some light on this??
Can't seem to get the picture to show. It's img_3191, on the next-to-last page of the R17 photos, car# 6804.
(I Agree With This Post).
When delivered in 1955, they were COMPLETELY maroon but around 1987-1988 some R17's DID IN FACT get maroon paint again & had silver roofs [same scheme like the Redbirds except the base color was a little bit darker].
This, combined with populist opposition to the fare hike, gets the city's small time Democratic pols in the bidding war with Republicans like George Bush to see who can sell out the future more to satisfy the short term whines of our obese, anti-child country. There seems to be no political downside to budget deficits, unfunded pension liabilities, diminished infrastructure investment, lack of concern for the environment, 30 years of ripping off New York City's schools, etc.
I guess is everyone is guilty, no one is guilty. Something for nothing sells, even if the result is (eventually) nothing for something. We are borrowing money to pay off the $billions we borrowed to rebuild the bridges which fell apart in the first place because they weren't maintained, in large part because they were free.
Just remember, most people are on the subway, not on the free bridges. Many people on the free bridges are wealthy, and would probably rather pay if it meant traffic congestion would fall. The winners? People with special permits to park on the street for free in congested areas. The politicals, in other words.
However, as you have pointed out, the major abusers of the whole system are the politicos and assorted hangers-on. I used to work around Cadman plaza, next to the court buildings, and the number of cars parked illegally with placards in their windshields (and the sheer number of different types of placards) just brought home the abuse.
Instead of a bridge fee (which does have a congestion cost to collect), how about getting rid of all the free on-street parking, and doubling (tripling?) the city parking tax and using the money to fund bridge maintenance. I think the collection costs would be less and the results would be the same.
Not with full-speed E-ZPass. This is a very common red herring. Cash toll booths were never on the table.
how about getting rid of all the free on-street parking, and doubling (tripling?) the city parking tax and using the money to fund bridge maintenance. I think the collection costs would be less and the results would be the same.
The results would be very different. Your arrangement would give pass-through traffic a free ride, but would charge Manhattan residents with cars who rarely use the bridges for their maintenance. That's hardly an equitable arrangement.
I agree that all free on-street parking needs to go (everywhere!), except where subsidized by a non-transportation entity. But parking fees should pay for parking, not for other transportation expenses. Those other transportation expenses should be covered by their own users.
I also believe that Manhattan residents who have cars should pay the freight of the space they occupy. I’m sort of rolling bridge maintenance and congestion charges into one here (a bit more than Ken Livingston has done in London, but most of the same ideas apply!).
I would go even further, since the main culprits of congestion in the rush hours are those who feel that they are above riding in shared conveyances and have reserved spaces in private lots in buildings: all spaces should be taxed, including the private ones, and people who have a reserved free space as part of their job should have a tax assessed equal to the average cost of 12 months parking in that area.
That really only leaves taxis and delivery vehicles. I think taxis pay enough, and would be willing to consider some sort of placard for Manhattan driving to compensate for the congestion.
John
Occasional drivers can sign up for E-ZPass too, you know. My average statement (which comes every two months) has about two transactions. When I lived in Illinois it had less.
There's no technological reason prepaid E-ZPass tags can't be rented for cash, for anyone passing through who doesn't have an account of his own.
And those who insist on paying cash can use the existing cash booths at the BBT, QMT, and Triboro.
I also believe that Manhattan residents who have cars should pay the freight of the space they occupy.
Anyone who parks on the street, anywhere, should pay for the privilege. (Many of the cars parked on the streets of my Manhattan neighborhood don't belong to Manhattan residents.)
I’m sort of rolling bridge maintenance and congestion charges into one here (a bit more than Ken Livingston has done in London, but most of the same ideas apply!).
But bridge maintenance and congestion charges have little to do with each other. Your proposed congestion charge isn't a congestion charge at all! Ken Livingstone has done something entirely different. (For one thing, he's exempted residents of the cordoned area, IINM, while you seem to want to hit Manhattan residents hardest of all.)
I would go even further, since the main culprits of congestion in the rush hours are those who feel that they are above riding in shared conveyances and have reserved spaces in private lots in buildings: all spaces should be taxed, including the private ones, and people who have a reserved free space as part of their job should have a tax assessed equal to the average cost of 12 months parking in that area.
You have it backwards again. A lot of those garaged cars belong to Manhattan residents who reverse-commute out of the city or who only use their cars on weekends. They're certainly not responsible in the slightest for the bulk of the congestion, which is in the opposite direction.
If someone's wealthy enough that he can afford to pay for a private parking space in Manhattan -- good for him! He's paid for that space; let him have it. If you want to charge bridge users for maintenance or for congestion, then charge bridge users for maintenance or congestion.
The basic point of a congestion charge is to encourage drivers to travel off-peak, if possible. How does your proposal accomplish that? By definition, a congestion charge is greater for travelers at some times than for travelers at others. Your proposal makes no distinction -- someone who drives into the city at midnight and leaves the car in a garage for the next week is assessed a huge congestion charge, while someone else who cuts across Canal Street during rush hour isn't charged anything. That's not a congestion charge -- it's just a more confusing (and more damaging) version of the mess we have now.
It's not that complicated. In Melbourne, Australia, they have full-speed EZPass (it's not called that though). If you are from out of town and drive past the transponder without a Pass, they photograph your license plate and send you a bill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
FYI, the policy is reversed. Current city zoning virtually precludes new parking facilities in Manhattan south of 110th street, even in new residential buildings. But the bridges are free. So lots of people show up, looking for a scarce number of on-street spaces. So they double park.
City Planning wanted to change this -- relax the parking restriction, impose the tolls -- but it never even got to the proposal stage. A never-released study found that 14 percent of those driving into Manhattan had those city permits that allowed them to park on the street, even illegally, for free. Every political appointee in Rudy's adminstration got one.
Somehow I don't think the lack of tolls on the bridges is particularly relevant. Anyone who's willing to drive into Manhattan and deal with scarce and/or costly parking probably won't be deterred by a bridge toll. Most of them, no doubt, are the sort who won't ride transit because they'd be in close proximity with us (ick!) Common People. Many of the others have those political-appointee parking permits; easy solution, get rid of the permits.
Most of them just decide on a case-by-case basis whether driving or transit is the best option in that case. Institute tolls and the balance in some cases will be tipped towards transit -- or towards delaying the trip until after rush hour.
And, again, you're forgetting about pass-throughs, for whom parking is irrelevant. Manhattan doesn't have room for pass-throughs, yet the toll structure encourages them.
Do any other cities place upper limits on parking? Most place lower limits. Both are damaging.
OTOH, if all on-street parking were metered, it wouldn't become so hard to find parking anymore. It's silly to pay for on-street parking in time, since no one benefits from parkers' time spend circling (on the contrary, we cause traffic congestion, pollution, etc. just while looking for parking). Payment in cash makes at least benefits the recipient of the cash. (The counterargument is that cash is worth more than time to the poor, so this benefits the rich. But the poor don't have cars in NYC.)
Many of the new apartment buildings in the old Flower District (6th Avenue between 23rd and 28th Streets) have parking areas underneath. Was this allowed because they were built on former parking lots?
How so? ZR 13-42 requires accessory parking in certain residential developments in the Manhattan CBD, and ZR 13-12 permits accessory parking for virtually any other large residential development. Since most of the Manhattan CBD isn't zoned Residential, public parking facilities can be built by special permit under ZR 74-52.
It makes better political sense to leave the bridges free, and then announce who can and cannot use them. Remove all private vehicles from the Brooklyn Bridge, and allow bus and taxis only between say 0500 and 2200 hours on weekdays might be a start. Perhaps put a free trolley car back on the bridge. The Blue Route loops around to south ferry, the Orange Route loops around the WTC-Financial areas. Half of them might originate at the LIRR terminal, and others might originate at Grand Army Plaza.
Sure people will bitch that you are giving "Rich Long Islanders a free ride" but that is not really the case. The fact is that they will SUBSIDIZE the service which is included in their LIRR fares, and this sbusidy includes free rides for those who do not ride the LIRR, and it removes some of the crush from the Subways, giving the rest of Brooklyn a more comfortable ride.
Once this is a success, you can chop off another bridge: make the Manhattan Bridge available to busses, taxis and vehicles with Area Resident Permits (ie: your principal residence, and place where your vehicle is registered, AND GARAGED may qualify for a permit.) only during rush hours, and to delivery trucks during the day time hours.
Another benefit for the rich? Maybe so, but without the rich there are no businesses and no jobs, so quit your bitching, smile nicely, and toss them a bone while you mulkt them for a few more bucks.They'll pay up, and everybody will be happy.
Elias
Business / World Business: Latest German Fad: Leasing Out the Subway
By MARK LANDLER
Frankfurt is making a special, once-in-a-lifetime offer: lease the whole subway system for 99 years with an upfront payment of roughly $100 million.
Full Story
--Mark
http://www.metropla.net/eu/ffm/frankfrt.htm
I can see that an operator coming in and taking the lease could make a go of it depending on what the "traffic will bear for fare" ... the system DOES have some serious vandalism problems though. But yes, I could see someone making a good go of it, but not "auslanders."
Michael
Washington, DC
Because of the design of the control system, the train ran as though it were being operated by a novice operator on his first day in training - throw you off balance acceleration and deceleration, then lurching along until it finally stopped in the station. Certainly better designs exist today, but that one was miserable. My mother was sufficiently impressed with it after two or three trips that she decided the best way from Grand Central to Penn Station was a cab :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your are comparing 40 year old techology to modern technology
It is like comparing a horse drawn carrige to a supersonic unmanned aircraft
Announcements are made automatically. The system is on the honor system with no fare control except spot checks in the system for tickets.
Why can't the Shuttle use a system similar to Vancouver?
I sometimes wonder why NYCT does not operate under a similar system overnights with one little twist, a rider would signal if he wanted to get off at a particular station. This would reduce travel time overnight.
The paris metro has a handle on the door of some of it's cars which need to be pulled down to open the door. The handle is on both sides of the door. It reduces dwell time by reducing the number of doors that could be held
-Robert King
It is like comparing a horse drawn carrige to a supersonic unmanned aircraft
I think that's slightly greater than a forty year gap...
The ATO system used on the shuttle was a horse drawn carrige compared to todays technology which is a supersonic jet in comparison.
remember the pace of technological evolution in the information technology field is 100 times faster then in the automotive or aeronotical field
Back in 1992 when al gore layed out his vision of an information superhighway every pundit predicted it would cost nearly a trilion dollars to build and decades to rollout. Within a few years scientists found ever evolving solutions to utilize current infrastructure such as DSL over ordinary phone lines and high speed internet over power lines.
I could never imagine walking into bryant park and being able to automatically pick up a wi-fi connection that operates on the same frequency as many cordless phones. Back in the early 1990's one needed to flip dip switches on one's motherboard and modem to set up the apropiate com port and IRQ settings to install a basic modem never mind interoperatble cheap high speed wireless networks. A wireless router can be had for $30 that and takes less then 5 min to set up that allows you to surf the net while you take the sun on your lawn
Not true. The ATO experiment ended with the fire.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Other than three points out of nowhere to start and (almost) dumping the train to stop, it worked pretty well. TOO well, some suspect owing to the fire. Although much was said in pointing the fingers at the TWU for what happened, the fire actually happened elsewhere in the station and the wooden platform caused it to spread to the automated train. If it really WAS sabotage, I would have expected the fire to break out UNDER the train, not on the other side of the station.
But folks didn't like the ride, it was like a rookie T/O that never got the hang of the job.
I don't know about the 142 but the R143 has ATO ability.
There is space for the equipment, all is pending on how the L does with CBTC
Actually, in a way it is the T/O who is eliminated, not the conductor. The remaining employee still opens the door, closes it, makes sure it is safe to proceed, is responsible for customers, etc. -- jobs the conductor does today. Meanwhile, the CBTC system operate the train.
Except that the remaining employee would be in the front of the train scanning the roadbed for a problem (fire, someone on the tracks) and prepared to take over manual operation if and when required. So in effect you have a conductor and emergency T/O.
There is an ATO switch in the cab. Without anything to feed it information, ATO is not that useful.
What planet are you on. ATO saves tons and tons of money.
Concidering the purpose of mass transit is to provide affordable reliable transportation. ATO is esseintial to meeting the above stated goals
Remember any local subsidies the MTA receives is money out of your pocket. Add up the cost of the subsidies that come out of your pocket in the form of tax dollars and outragiously high tolls, and surcharges on such things as your phone and cable bill and your are paying $2.50-3 a ride. Esspecially middle class new yorkers
OK, we flip the switch ATO is now on. How does the train know where it is? The rest of the goodies are not installed in the system.
Sort of like having a TV in the 1903.
When you say a train is equipted to run in ATO any rational person inturprets the situation to mean that the trackage has all the goodies needed to control the trains that run on it's tracks and that the trains have all the goodies to run with the goodies on the track
In the case of the R143's, The trainsets electronically controled prepolsion is capable of interfacing with the control module that will be installed when the trackage on the L line is ready for such operation. Todays trains controls systems are no more then nodes on a network. As long as the systems have the availablity to interact with a certain protocal, that protocal can interface with the trains and any control module. It is just a matter of software just as one could add software to play MP3's or DVD's or add a software to interface with a scanner or a robot that manufactures auto's
XBOX's business model is to take a loss on the XBOX unit and make the money up on selling you video games
All because Microsoft didn't want to encrypt their stupid WAV files. yeah, know all about it - plenty of "how-to" and chatter on the various IRC's where the kids that write viruses and trojans and worms hang out. Amusingly, to give you an idea of the demographic of those who write these nasties, mid-week is usually the busiest time for the script kiddies. There hasn't been a new nasty in three days now, a FIRST in over a year's time! Normally I'd be up to my neck in research and doing a BOClean update now. Nothing to do! I suppose they're all hotwiring their X-Boxes out there. Heh.
The article mentioned that is was more popular in europe and Asia becuase computers cost more there then the do state side. my freinds brother got tired of his Xbox and hot wired it up.
You didn't read the posts or quote them in their context (we have all made that mistake) but instead of owning up you go right to the free insults.
People tale good nature jabs at me, I send them right back
Everyone is intitled to make mistakes.
Liighten up
I got ripped yeaterday for my spelling. I did not take it personal.
I understood him perfectly.
The 143s are ATO ready.
The (L) Lion is not.
So until the (L) Lion gets a brain (or was it a heart) the ATO is only an interesting artifact.
Elias
In essense the R143 are missing the brains also.
ATO ready only means that there are ports availble to hook up ATO components at a latter date. Nothing more
NYCT will never operate ZPTO
ATO does not mean ZPTO. Straphangers campaign will spread false rumors and make it sound like the MTA worked under a cloak of secrecy the same way that they seemed shocked when the MTA moved to close unneeded token booths in lower volume fare controls. It was only a part of a plan dating back to the early 1990's or maybe even earlier
Elias
BART trains DO NOT operate without a TO; the ability is indeed there; but the California Public Utilities Commission forbids it; and actually there is no plan to do so at any time in our lifetimes.
There is some jesting testing, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Fully automatic, no operator needed to do anything
2. Fully automatic operation except operator closes and/or opens doors manually
3. Fully automatic operation but the operator needs to hit the start ATO button each time the train gets indication
4. Fully manual
DC currently operates in the 2nd scenario, two systems that operate using the third scenario are the PATCO in New Jersey and Docklands Light Railway in England. When the WMATA relays failed, WMATA ran in scenario 4.
NYC has had ATO, read the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle page on this website.
1. Fully automatic, no operator needed to do anything
2. Fully automatic operation except operator closes and/or opens doors manually
3. Fully automatic operation but the operator needs to hit the start ATO button each time the train gets indication
4. Fully manual
DC currently operates in the 2nd scenario, two systems that operate using the third scenario are the PATCO in New Jersey and Docklands Light Railway in England. When the
WMATA relays failed, WMATA ran in scenario 4.
NYC has had ATO, read the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle page on this website."
1,2 and 3 falls under the WMATA definition of Mode 1 operation. 4 falls under the WMATA definition of Mode 2 operation.
The automatic door open and or close controls can be cut in or out as well as automatic train start as Oren stated.
I acquired a copy in PDF format of the
WASHINGTON METROPOLITAN AREA TRANSIT AUTHORITY
METRORAIL SAFETY RULES AND PROCEDURES HANDBOOK
GLOSSARY OF METRORAIL TERMINOLOGY
MODE 1
1. Operating mode - Train operation in ATO with ATP.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode for Turnback Moves at a Terminal by which the Outbound Trains are routed to track 1 and the Inbound Trains are turned back from track 1.
MODE 2
1. Operating mode - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with ATP.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode for Turnback Moves at a Terminal by which the Outbound Trains are routed to track 2 and the Inbound Trains are turned back from track 2.
MODE 2 LEVEL 1
(Manual with Speed Commands) - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with operation monitored and protected by the ATP system.
MODE 2 LEVEL 2
(Manual with Zero Speed Commands) - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with operation partially monitored and protected by the ATP system. Train is operated at restricted speed (15 mph or as directed by OCC) and an Absolute or Permissive Block must be established on mainline. This is the normal operating mode in yards.
MODE 3
1. Operating mode - (Manual with ATP Cut Out) -Train operation under manual (Train Operator) control without ATP monitoring and protection. This mode is not allowed unless passengers are off-loaded at the first available station and an Absolute Block or Permissive Block is established to allow train movement.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode at a Terminal for Turnback Moves which crosses over Outbound Trains and turns back Inbound Trains straight through. If the exit of the preferred Outbound Route is occupied, Mode 3 can route Outbound Trains straight through to the Vacant Track and cross over the Train on its Inbound move.
John
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry Andee (Mr. Concourse) and Sparky GG but no one noticed that 10 days ago, it was the 70th Birthday for both the Concourse and Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown lines. They both opened on 7/1/1933. HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY.
Peace,
ANDEE
THANKS FOR THE NOTE!!
So far, a few people have joined my group. If you have any questions on this group, please email me directly. Thank you.
This writer has waved to him from the platform
Ridership levels at the station could have been one cause for not doing the rebuild. Money could have been an issue as well.
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Ray Sanchez is a sewer mouth. He never has anything nice to say about NYC (except for parts of Queens).
The paper he works for is a sewer. To this day they have never forgiven the people of NYC for not accepting the "New York Newsday" paper they issued some years ago (and almost went bankrupt because of it).
Newsday is and always will be a suburban paper trying to be a big city paper (and failing).
Peace,
ANDEE
So, based on this fact, which he is supposed to be a knowledgeable and accurate subway reporter, is that Mr. Sanchez does not know how to read a subway map correctly and cannot be trusted to provide reliable information to it’s readers.
Better to back up someone you dislike with facts than an opinion.
I just remember it poped up a few days after someone here started a thread.
Jackson had a fire also? I know Intervale Ave had a bad one in the late 80's.
wayne
til next time
That was my favorite episode of Monster Garage!
Mark
wayne
When the current phase of the Manhattan Bridge project started, the B & D services were cut back to 34th Street. It seems that it would have made more sense to run the lines as far south as West 4th Street in order to maintain 6th Ave Express service between midtown and the Village. According to Peter's track maps, it looks like the necessary infrastructure is present at West 4th to turn the trains around. (The Grand St. Shuttle could have been cut back to Broadway-Lafayette to accomodate the express service at West 4th).
I realize that with the bridge project coming to completion in 2004 this is getting pretty close to being after the fact, but it is something that I've thought about.
Any ideas?
They don't want to deal with confused passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What really should've been done is to run the D to Delancey at night, and extend the J to CI via Brighton while an x-over was built between Bway-Lafyette and Grand Street during the nights, with a slow order during the day, until completed.
???
Who cares about confusion at night? That's when they do most GO's anyway.
David
Chris: The 1984 project was a quicky fix and only earned a small insert in the Summer 1983 Revision of the 1979 Map. Later closings earned detailed brochures and maps of their own.
Larry, RedbirdR33
6 AV:
Rush hour 168St-34St Express (on 6Av! north Local)
(D) All times 205St-34St Express Rush hour peak X Fordham-145
(F) except nights 179St-CI Local X FH-QP;Weekdays Parson-QP
Rush hour skip 169 St
(F) nights 57St/6-CI Local
(S) except nights 57St/6-Grand Local
(S) nights W4St-Grand
Broadway:
(B) Weekday 6AM-8PM QBP-CI Express skips DeKalb
Rush hour Ditmars-CI Express skips DeKalb
(B) Evening/Weekend 57St/7-CI Express stops DeKalb
(B) nights 36St-CI Shuttle
(D) All times 57St/7-CI Express skip-stop with Q
(N) All times Ditmars-CI Local Evening/night/weekend
skips City Hall,Cortland
Rector, Whitehall, Lawrence
& Court
Evening/weekend Express
Pacific-59
(Q) Weekday 7am-8pm 57St/7-BB Express skip-stop with D
(R) All times FH-95St Local
I believe it ran local in Queens (and at at least some times it ran all the way to Jamaica), but I'll let one of the experts verify.
No. The N ran to Queens weekdays only. Prior to the N/R swap of 5/87 the N ran express to 57th St only on weekends. The B and R both served 60th St. The N never ran regularly scheduled service to Jamaica. Weekend local stations on the Queens Blvd IND prior to the N/R swap was exclusively serviced by the G.
Would look nice on the subway map. :-)
But bad service for Jamaica - Local FH-QP
RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Larry, RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
B trains ran between 36 Street and Coney Island during midnight hours.
B trains ran between 57 Street-7 Avenue and Coney Island as follows
1) via bridge,exp in Man and Bklyn am rush stbd,pm rush and wkdy eve ntbd
2) via tunnel making all local stops am rush stbd, pm rush and wkdy eves ntbd and all other times except midnights.
B trains between 168 Street and West 4 Street then light to 2 Avenue during rush hours
B trains between 57 Street-6 Avenue and 34 Street-6 Avenue during midnight hours
B trains between 57 Street-6 Avenue and West 4 Street then light to 2 Avenue all times except midnight hours.
B shuttle between Broadway-Lafayette Street and Grand Street on ntbd track at all times.
D trains between 205 Street and West 4 Street then light to Bway Lafayette St (stbd tk). All times
D 57 Street-7 Avenue to Brighton Beach or Coney Island via bridge at all times.
As a result of congestion at 57 Street-7 Avenue schedules were changed on or about October 14. B trains discharged at 57 Street and ran light to Beebe Avenue middle track, reverse and light back to 57 Street. B trains would now operate express northbound in Manhattan on weekdays.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Favorite: Boston MBTA
And at the other end of the "Spectrum" (no pun intended) is SEPTA. Things just seem to be going from bad to worse in Philly. These guys make the MTA look like Mr. Clean when it comes to mismanagement and corruption. Too bad, too. I love some of their rail lines (69th St-Norristown P&W, and Doylestown Line).
SEPTA makes MTA look like Mr. Clean when it comes to station maintenance, too! The exceptions are the 2nd and 5th street MFL stations, whose floors have been blinding lately, but the rest of the system reminds me of a gas station men's room.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
I was impressed with the Whatcom County Transportation Authority in Bellingham, Washington when I was out there last year. This little town (~70,000) people manages to run a decent system of frequent buses that will get you just about anywhere in town. Bellingham is a college town, and I suspect that Western Washington University subsidizes it heavily, especially since the fare is only 50 cents and monthly passes are $15.
As for bigger systems...I tend to admire those systems that seem to have a boldness of vision (having a vision at all puts an agency far ahead of SEPTA). Dallas DART comes to mind, with its big ongoing expansion of rail in a city where Kar is King. Chicago's CTA seems to have a good vision with their circle line project. I can say the same thing for Portland's Tri-Met, with their streetcar and new light rail lines, plus the fact that they put bike racks in the trains, and have no problems with photography.
Customer service...When I was in Toronto I was incredibly impressed with the friendliness of TTC employees, but then that seemed to be the mood of the whole city.
Also, I like Buenos Aires Metrovia just for their cool website.
Mark
Back in 1997 or so, the STM decided that subway construction was move too slow, so now they are spending about US$300 million per year on construction right now. Currently, 24 km of lines are under construction. Between 2000 and 2020, their master plan calls for a total of 284 km of subway to be built, 44 km of airport express lines to connect two airports with downtown, and 300 km of BRT lines. Looking a their map with all the proposed stuff, I think only the BRT system seems a little too pie in the sky.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html
<a href="http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html">http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html</a>
to get this:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html
Mark
Mark
A convenient whipping boy, but better managed than most other transit systems. I was here in the mid-1980s, when the improvements were just starting, and again now, and the performance of the agency has been amazing.
Part of the credit goes to money -- the amount of state and local cash that has been invested in the system.
Part of the credit goes to the change in the city, with lower crime and more immigrants/new college grads to attract as riders.
Part of it is the retirement of the generation that ran the system into the ground in the 1960s and 1970s, and their replacment by new workers who never experienced not having to work.
But part of it is improved management. It could be better still, but at least there is an attitude that things are SUPPOSED to keep improving, unlike many other public agencies.
I'd put them a close second behind the hard working women and men of the Miami Valley Rail Authority.
Mark
I guess it has to be MTA/NYCT.
They have a great integrated network of subway and bus that does not penalize a person because they do not live close to a subway station.
They offer a wide range of farecards, including stored value and time based.
They actually have expansion plans in the works (if they get built is another issue).
Fairfield Area Rapid Transit - GO FART!
The structure of the Fulton L there was heavy enough to take subway equipment for a short distance, so it must have been storage for the R10 but still a pretty unique picture.
1. It was used on the #14-Broadway Brooklyn Local and is laid up to the evening rush.
2. It's really an "A" train that was inpatient to see what Lefferts Blvd. looked like before the connection was opened from Euclid Avenue.
3. It's looking for 76th Street.
I was only 4 years old in 1954 so I couldn't tell what went down.
I sort of remember that you had to pay another fare to go from the BMT to the IND.
Yes, and me and David Greenberger found it after much searching back in April. The stairways down to the closed mezzanine were actually under one of the stairways leading up.
Another pic of the exit
-William A. Padron
("Mr. R-10")
Trivia (trivium?)--this was a policy inherited by NYCTS from the IRT, which made the determination by its bankruptcy years that steel dust was as good a preservant as a paint, and loads cheaper!
If you don't already you should have a page showing the progression of that particular structure from the photo that Paul is referring to thru the soon to happen (???) connection change.
(Nevermind).
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
How about it? Any other thoughts about helping my favorite line?
: )
Mark
Restore 4 tracks from end to end.
Convert Bay Parkway to an express stop (also renovate station. It may be too expensive, but it's an ideal location relevant to local stations in between.)
Renovate 8th Ave, New Utrecht Ave (as complex with 62nd st, upstairs), 18th Ave, Kings Highway, and Avenue U. Leave other stations on the timetable for last.
That's all I can suggest. You won't get your summer beach express trains, they belong on the Brighton Line, sorry.
Stage 1
Shut Down The Following Stations (Going Towards Coney Island):
8th Avenue
Fort Hamilton Parkway
18th Avenue
20th Avenue
Shut them down for 6-8 months, and do the following:
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
Stage 2
Done After Stage 1 Completion, Same as Stage 1 but on Stations going towards Manhattan
Stage 3
Rehabilitation of New Utrecht/62nd Street Stations
Elevators Connecting the D Platform with the N/M platform, redoing the canopies of both station, making both stations clean, new tiling, new walls, new flooring, and new mosaics. Redo configure of the New Utrecht Station to an Express Station Configuration with 2 Island Platforms.
Stage 4
Shut Down of the 18th Avenue
20th Avenue
Bay Parkway
Kings Highway Stations (Going Towards Coney Island)
Shut them down for 6-8 months, and do the following:
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
At Kings Highway, redo configure of the Station to an Express Station Configuration with 2 Island Platforms. and both platforms and station elevators are installed and entire station made ADA Accessible.
Stage 5
Same as Stage 4 except on Stations Going Towards Manhattan
Stage 6
Station Shutdown of Avenue U and 86 Street going in Both Directions
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
Stage 7
Rehabilitation of Southbound Express Track and installation of new switches along the entire stretch of Sea Beach Line.
One possibility for changing certain stations to express would be to submerge the express tracks so there would be a two level station similar to IND central park west stations. They are all local, but Bergen Street on the F is a two level express stop.
Well, perhaps they could plant some poison ivy in your honor... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well they could do all of this:
-Restore the deactivated express track
-Rehab all stations [doing every other station starting from 8 Av then every other station s/b to CI first then n/b afterwards then start from Fort Hamilton then do the same format as noted above]
-Convert New Utrecht Av to an express stop [have to do lots of surveying first]
-Make section between 59 St and 8 Av a little faster
-Make section between 86 St & Coney Island faster & simpler
-New switches at Kings Highway
-Create ADA compliant stations [select stations]
Flatbush: The best thing that they could do to improve the Sea Beach Line would be to build another Brighton Line.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Well basically that's what it would be, a SECOND version of the Brighton line.
Being that the 7 train needed to leave Woodside in a hurry, the conductor probably did not want to confuse people by opening doors on the inbound side. That's the reason why only the outbound doors would only open so not to allow people on the Manhattan bound side to get back on the train and confuse them.
First, they should have made announcements on the train I was on that Woodside would be the last stop and to take the local at Junction Blvd.
The C/R cannot make the announcement until they reach Woodside, rush hour is always unpredictable. You might have to be turned halfway on your trip, but tower or command tells you to proceed normal when you get there.
Compare that to the (much better) Queens IND which has 3 different paths to Manhattan. So do most of the IRT lines out of Brooklyn (2,3,4,5) and the Bronx (2,4,5). And the BMT in Brooklyn. The 7 is a poorly planned line. It should have had an alternate route planned years ago. But that's pie in the sky, isnt it?
What about the L line? The J north of Broadway Junction? The Rockaways? The Lenox Invert in Manhattan? The West side IRT local between 137th st and Dyckman St? Aren't those lines mentioned above two tracks? If you get stuck on the two track portion, you have options (even in Queens). Get stuck at Broad Channel, well it's a bit difficult getting out since bus service is lousy at Cross Bay Blvd.
Not only not to confused them but no need to. All those passengers are presumably waiting for a manhattan-bound train, so why open on the Manhattan-bound side at all?
Yes, the 7 really must be the worst line in the system. I can't believe they haven't installed the magic platform conductor pixie dust that makes platform conductors appear whenever there are unexpected delays like they have on those other lines.
The way ridership keeps growing on the Franklin Ave Shuttle, the platforms should've been long enough to accomodate 4 car R68 train consists. 2 car lengths is not enough, try waiting at Botanic Garden, which feels more like the IRT side of the passageway at Atlantic Ave everyday.
As to the announcements, yes the TA's announcements have been historically poor -- but I think your expectations are far too high. You have to figure that for the first 10 minutes of most delays the concern is going to be how to get the train in question moving again.
People like to come on SubTalk and bitch that there was a delay in service and that there weren't good enough announcements. Apparently they seem to think that there was going to be some kind of announcement which magically conveys to them how they can get to their destination with no further delay.
In reality, the only announcement which could be made which is 100% truthful is:
"Attention passengers at 61 St. You are screwed. There is a train stuck at 5th Ave. and we're trying to clear it -- but we don't know how long it will take. After all, if we did it wouldn't be stuck. You could just enjoy the cool breezes and wait it out, or you could backtrack to 74th for the IND. But you'll be screwed there since all of NE Queens is now trying to jam down those escalators -- so you'll still be way late to work. Or you could go downstairs and take the LIRR -- fat lot of good that'll do you, since it only runs about every 15 minutes and we'll charge you about 5 bucks to dump you off at Penn Station only to pay another fare to get back on the subway. So face it -- you're screwed. Have a pleasant day and thanks for riding MTA NYC Transit"
CG
Packed Train pulls into station. Doors open/many on/many off/doors close/open/close/open but there's one door in the last car that doesn't close even though nobody's holding it (anymore). After 5 minutes of the dance and the usual kindergarten style threats conductor walks back determines that train has to be taken out of service. Discharges entire train and closes up manually. 20 minutes after pulling in, the train pulls out (and runs express to a yard or layup track -- leaving clear track ahead). Once the train behind it pulls in, the delay begins to clear up. Maybe there's a battery run involved, but the max delay to any one passenger is probably 25 minutes or so and other lines are relatively unaffected.
Should block tickets be issued in this situation? At the station where the train is being discharged? What about stations ahead or behind?
If you issue block tickets, do you risk sending thousands of people onto other already crowded lines -- thereby causing delays on those lines as well?
Obviously, each different delay/station/line/time of day combination has an optimal solution as to whether or not block tickets should be issued -- it's just that calculating that solution either at the time of the delay or before isn't very practical.
I think that -- like express trains -- people tend to overestimate the speed of alternate routes during a delay.
CG
In January, I was on a 5 train that terminated at 3rd Avenue because of a smoke condition further up the line. The rest of the line was shut down. There's no free crossover at 3rd Avenue; we needed block tickets even if we just wanted to backtrack. But the S/A wasn't authorized to distribute block tickets, so we just stood there, waiting. Eventually she got authorization and the handed them out. But just then, service was reinstated. But the S/A wasn't authorized to unlock the turnstiles, so we just stood there like fools, watching a train come and go. I don't know how this ended; a cop opened the service gate and let us all in.
A month or two ago, I was stuck in a mess at Euclid with no Manhattan-bound service due to switch problems at Hoyt. I was on a C train that went out of service before even going anywhere! There's a big transfer point one express stop up, but we needed block tickets to get there. Not only was the S/A not distributing block tickets, there was no indication to entering passengers that maybe they shouldn't enter fare control just yet.
One morning last year, I joined the tail end of a half hour gap in SB local service at 86th/Broadway. An express went by every few minutes, and more than a few of us wanted to walk to 96th, but when asked for block tickets, the S/A insisted that nothing was wrong.
And for those on strict schedules, who might as well go back home rather than show up very late, a block ticket is, in a way, a repayment of a wasted fare. (I once missed an hour appointment because my 1 train made an unexpected express run from 96th to 137th. Not much point in showing up 45 minutes late, so I went home and saved the block ticket. I still had to pay for the missed appointment.)
If nothing else, distributing block tickets would improve the customer's perception of service. The only thing worse than having no service is being trapped with no service.
With the bus service around the 7 line there is no need for a alternate route. Just be happy you was able to get to another subway line instead of the lucky souls who get stuck in no wheres land (The Rockaways. And the 7 isn't the worst subway line in the city. You just catch it at bad times.
What was your question again?
Something worse than ragging on LI Bus, I don't believe it!
At that point I would of just taken the Q32 into Manhattan or at least to the W; its not much better but beats waiting for the 7's to clear up. Seems like the 7 express heading into MAnhattan was cut short drastically since trains were turning on the express track at Woodside as you mentioned.
Unfortunately the 7's one good asset (not having to share with other lines) is also a big drawback. If a train gets stuck in between Queensboro and Times Square, there is no way to reroute service. Compare that to the (much better) Queens IND which has 3 different paths to Manhattan. So do most of the IRT lines out of Brooklyn (2,3,4,5) and the Bronx (2,4,5). And the BMT in Brooklyn. The 7 is a poorly planned line. It should have had an alternate route planned years ago. But that's pie in the sky, isnt it?
Now if the train got stuck in the Rockaways on the A for a extended period of time then there would be some serious delays, possibly leading to a shuttle bus. There are lots of plaes where there are only 2 tracks where service could easily get messed up. Be grateful that the 7 has three tracks [in the place where you got stuck at].
That "Book-And-Movie" is almost a REQUIREM for SubTALK residency.
--Mark
The casting of the original movie was absolutely brilliant, particularly Walter Matthau (a one of a kind, irreplaceable actor. You'll never see anyone like him again), but also Robert Shaw, Martin Balsam (no one like him ever again, either), and Jerry Stiller (who is now forever linked with the question of how the Yankees could have trade JAY BUHNER???????).
But if the tape ain't worn out yet, then there's probably not much reason to acquire the DVD. Although you still might want to ...
On a regular TV screen, yes. I was disappointed when I played it on a friend's six-foot-wide home theater screen; it gets a bit pixelated :). Also, sound is monaural only. Still a better choice than the tape, as there's no digitally-remastered THX version out there. Yet ;).
The original film was on theatrical 35MM anamorphic, monaural audio. Wasn't a whole lot that could be done, but they did manage to clean up the original. I saw the original go through the film gate doing summer relief at NBC many years ago and it was looking pretty long in the tooth then. The VHS release was OK (4:3 only) but wasn't all that terrific either - and on a biggie home theatre screen, VHS is just painful to watch. On my 25 inch ordinary talking lamp, looked pretty good. :)
Even better on my 21 :). But I got to see it in the THEATER way back in 2001, a rare 16mm print IIRC. Very nice :).
The book or the movie ARE worth the time. The BOOK though is MUCH better. :)
Chuck Greene
I have the original movie on both DVD and Video, but where can I get the book?
Jimmy
Jimmy
Amazon Has Used Copies of the book for sale, also the VHS (New & Used), DVD (New and Used), and Cd soundtrack (New And Used)
It's a 1972 map
It is 75 cents for Like New condition. For your referance the ISBN is 0-88411-6492
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Jimmy
"You're a sick man, Rico."
Seroiusly, though: If you live in NYC check out the Strand Bookstore on Broadway and W. 10th. A few blocks from Union Square (where location shots for the chase sequence of the finale were done on the 4/5/6), this cavernous bookseller usually has a few copies.
In the book, the cops try to shadow Pelham's movements with Woodlawn 1-4-1 whose track is mined by Ryder. Also the hijackers all have much more character development in the book, with Ryder's experiences as a mercenary in detail. The device used to defeat the deadman's switch in the train is called the Gimmick.
In the movie, several car types of the 1970s can be seen, including all of the car types used for the recent SMEE trip, except for the WF's.
Finally, on payday at work, I still tell my crews, "The money has arrived! The money has arrived!"
Hey, don't forget the rest of the all-star cast, including Oscar Madison, Quint, Juror #1, Wilson, Marie Barone...
I remember towards the end the "bad guys" rigged up this tubular "thing" to the front of the train. I think I even remember one of them commenting, "It fits like a glove". That was what allowed to to run away unattended....
a) What the heck was that?
b) Is it real?
There *WAS* a way to make Pre-war cars run away, and a rather easy task at that. It can ALSO be done with SMEE's, and other dual handle cars EASILY. Joystickers, NOT so easy.
And no, NOBODY's getting the dirt. Nobody. But I *do* know how it could be done, as does any current or former motorman/woman. As to what they did in the movie, enjoy the action, enjoy the interaction of the characters, enjoy the tunnel shots. If you're planning on taking a train, nothing in that film will work. :)
JONN
Then why do most trains not announce the Q and W trains and still announce that the F is on 63rd Street, among other things?
(Or program correctly the first time around, for that matter. The R-142 announcements were incorrect the very first late night they ran on the 2.)
We're talking a few keystrokes here. It should be sufficiently easy to reprogram the announcements for a weekend GO.
you,ll be seeing alot of those on the N and Q line,how many are left
J,M,Z lines.
i guess someone must,ve forgot to chagne the rollsign,are they going to bring back oragne Q or stay with the yellow Q.
R40M on the N
the 5 train that says bowling green on the front gotta have more then
10 cars,looks like 12 or more.this pics taken in the unionport yard,
right?and the R62 in the backround,is it still there.and if they have
it,why?it,s in bad shape.
R62 and redbirds,funny huh.
til next time
til next time
No, that's Concourse yard. You can see the Kingsbridge Armory in the background.
Peace,
ANDEE
By Joie Tyrrell
Staff Writer
July 10, 2003, 4:26 PM EDT
With a rainy month and a price increase, both Long Island Bus and the Long Island Rail Road saw a drop in ticket sales in May when the fare hike first went into effect, officials said at a meeting yesterday.
"We're seeing the impact of two major factors -- the weather and the fares," LI Bus President Neil Yellin told a Metropolitan Transportation Authority committee. Bus and subway fares rose from $1.50 to $2 May 4. LI Bus ridership dropped 4.4 percent from May of last year.
LIRR spokesman Brian Dolan did not pinpoint any exact reason for the decline, saying that railroad officials "will be analyzing that by quarter. It's difficult to tell from one month so we will be watching that closely."
The MTA voted to raise LIRR fares by 25 percent. The new rates went into effect May 1.
For the railroad, overall ticket sales are down 4.9 percent compared to May of last year with rush-hour ticket sales dropping 5.1 percent. Ticket sales for the non-rush hour declined 4.9 percent.
"Spring was not a pleasant time to travel for leisure activities," Dolan said. So far year-to-date ticket sales are down 3.5 percent below 2002. May revenue, however, was up 19 percent due to the fare increase.
"Our sales numbers have been declining all year; we believe that is generally related to the overall state of the economy," Dolan said. "As the next several months unfold, we'll be able to make a better decision. We budgeted for the fare increase but again it's just one month."
Jim McGovern, president of the Long Island Rail Road Commuters Council, said the economy also has played a role in the ticket sale decline. He doesn't predict any impact on service.
"The increase in fare revenue will certainly enable the railroad to operate at its current level of service" he said. "I don't think there is any danger of any cuts."
But Peter Haynes, president of another rider's advocacy group, said the decline comes on the heels of a continuous downward trend.
"They lost riders last year," said Haynes, president of the LIRR Commuters Campaign. "It is not a good sign at all. If they had booming ridership and it dipped five percent, I don't think it would nearly as disconcerting."
The MTA and transit advocates are awaiting a court decision on whether the higher fares will stand. A judge had ordered a rollback on the fares after the Straphangers Campaign had filed suit. But the MTA appealed.
Copyright © 2003, Newsday, Inc.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150151&category=Business&BCCode=BUSINESSMAIN&newsdate=7/10/2003
Highest unemployment rate since Raygun (20 years!). After all, you don't need to ride a train or bus if you're out of work or take an excursion train if you're tightening your belt out of fear of being the NEXT round of layoffs. :(
P.S. Anyone hazard a guess on the location? WMATAGOAUGH cannot answer.
AEM7
If that is your picture, it is one nice shot!
Yeah, it was my picture. The damned autofocus mis-focused at the last minute so I didn't get the WMATA train quite in the right position. The SOUNDER train was running late and the VRE train was on-time, and as I lined up to take the shot I noticed the WMATA train in the background is whining up the hill so I took the pic sooner than I had anticipated. When I came home I was like "oh damn, I snapped too early -- the two trains aren't close enough", then I remembered about the WMATA train and I was like, wow, that worked well!
AEM7
BTW, how far north does VRE run?
Washington Union Station, District of Columbia. :-P
Mark
According to their consist page, they still have 3 of the Bombardier Sounder trainsets.
Or could this be a clue?
I wish I had gotten a pic of an Amtrak train through there, but on never showed up and I couldn't be bothered to wait long enough for it. Since Dave Gunn came in the consists have gone boring -- no more boxcars and baggage cars, now it's locomotive, three coaches, cafe, and one single catch-all freight car at the very end. And they are all fixed consists now, like European railroads.
AEM7
I don't care much about Amtrak alone, but multimodalism is always neat. Last month I almost got a shot of a Metro-North train, a 1 train, a bus, cars, pedestrians, and a Circle Line boat, but the Metro-North train was late, the sidewalk on that side of the bridge is closed for construction, and I don't think any 1 trains passed by while the boat was in view.
David J. Greenberger's clue is right on though.
John
Image 24393 is harder for me to try and identify, but I think it is
Gates Avenue, looking west from the eastern end of the eastbound platform, rather than Hewes Street. The cornice lines of the buildings in this image are nothing like the cornice lines of the
buildings in image 24000, taken from roughly the same vantage point
at Hewes Street. The double vertical line at the vanishing point of
image 24393, rather than the Williamsburg Bridge, as it would be if
this were Hewes Street, could be part of the Broadway-Myrtle complex. Also, in image 24393, above the train on the middle track, near the
vanishing point, the previously mentioned long building with the
barely sloped roof and the pole at the cornice or sidewalk end, is
faintly visible. This building is visible near the vanishing point of image 4449, Kosciuszko St. looking east, and must therefore be on the north side of Broadway between the Kosciuszko St. and Gates Avenue
stations. That is why I think image 24393 is Gates Avenue. Unfortunately, I don't see an overlap of the cornice lines in this image, and in image 2169, which has been positively identified as
Gates Avenue for at least the past 13 months.
I am not totally sure about 24393 either. I mostly think it is Gates
Avenue looking northwest mostly because of the long slightly sloped
roof with pole at cornice building faintly visible above the train
on the middle track. Your point about building demolition along the
Broadway el is also a good one.
Building 1 is westernmost, and has a long, slightly sloped roof line.
It is above the middle of the train on the center track in image 24393. It is near the vanishing point in image 24000, between the
Williamsburg Savings Bank dome and the front of the westbound (Manhattan-bound)train.
Building 2 is right above the left-most car of the Manhattan-bound
train in image 24393. It is above the 3rd car from the rear of the
Manhattan-bound train in image 24000.
Building 3 is right above the front end of the middle car ( # 6348)of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24393. It is above the 2nd car from
the rear of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24000.
Building 4 is right above the rear end of the middle car ( # 6348)of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24393. It does not appear in image
24000. It would be above the front end of the last car of the train in this image (subject car # 6309) if it were there when the photo
was taken, but is not, because it appears to have been demolished before the photo was taken.
Thank you, GP38 Chris, and all you other readers for your attention.
My apologies, webmaster, for the confusion.
Thank you, also, GP38 Chris, for the "Broadway Jamaica Ridin'" photos
from your 2 July 03 ride, that you posted. Did you also post a message yesterday (Thursday July 10th) between about 3 and 4 p.m, about Ridgewood movie theaters ? If so, I have a reply.
Did you also post a message yesterday (Thursday July 10th) between about 3 and 4 p.m, about Ridgewood movie theaters ? If so, I have a reply.
Yeah, I did, and I'd love to hear what you have to say about them.
Park was eliminated, and Flushing, Lorimer & Hewes became side platform stations in 1916.
And for the 1 billionth time they are R26's, so now it won't have to be brought up again [hopefully].
AEM7
Jesse James never did it like this!
David
The new facility will occupy a good part of the eastern section of the yard. The MTA owns the land just past the end of the exisiting yard and will be putting in new tracks (including a loop track).
That means a lot of pilings going in.
David
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150281&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=7/10/2003
Once the contracts EXPIRE however, you can COUNT on the state doing away with it, even for station cleaners since it was the STATES that pushed hard for this as well as banks. Therefore, when the NEXT TWU contract is negotiated, overtime pay can be expected to not be "on the table" at all. Same for other state employees when their unions negotiate once this takes effect.
But hey, I'm sure there will be bonuses for the execs once again, and of course those dividends. But yeah, this IS outrageous. Slavery is back, and this time it's "equal opportunity" and based solely on economic status rather than skin color alone. :(
Never happen.
"Same for other state employees when their unions negotiate once this takes effect."
There are numerous state and city employee's who currently do not get paid overtime because they are concidered managierial or professional positions
The state attorney general's office is one example. The rules changes do not mean as much as many on this board and the biased article implies
I have mentioned before especially when overpaid station agents were complaining that they were underpaid, the suits that you all complain about and should pay more in taxes do not recieve overtime. Neither do many computer programers etc. Generally when you can somewhat control the pace of doing your work and you are a professional, you do not recieve overtime.
I'm sure it's the same in many OTHER agencies, and in other states as well. It was the states that sought this relief, along with Wal*Mart and a number of banks and brokerages. This was a bill that the NYS Division of the Budget and Paturkey's office were pressing HARD for. And while it may or may not affect cleaners, conductors and operators for a while, you can BET that TSS' and other "management titles" will go straight for it. I've been watching this bill, and the "congressional intent" messages were that *ANYONE* who "deals directly with customers" would not be required to be paid overtime (where this came from is beyond me, but it was IN there) ... thus, "Station Agents" owing to this definition would not be entitled.
Makes for some pretty serious abuse possibilities - Mandatory overtime would be the first thing I see coming - train operators REQUIRED to go for 12 hour shifts (I don't believe a similar to FRA rule exists for mass transit similar to what FRA's "drop dead" rules provide) and many other potential abuses, all for "straight pay" without penalty pay.
But REST ASSURED, in MANY places overtime is paid to the white collar workforce. You might want to have a word with YOUR employer if that's not the case for you. I don't get any overtime where I am now, so this isn't a personal issue for ME. But I thought others might be interested in knowing of their impending next shafting.
But yeah, this is a GRAND hosing - worse than the Health bill, worse than the "we'll help NYC get past 9/11" bullshirt that raised OUR taxes through the ROOF and all the rest that comes with our commander in THIEF. What amuses me the most is your typical republican lives in a "manufactured home" near a swamp, chews REDMAN, and actually BELIEVES that these schemes are going to make them richer than eBay. Gack! Just wait until this goes into effect and they get their biweekly net paycheck from Benton, Ark. (Wal*Mart HQ for those who don't recognize the town) :)
Funny, though, each time I had to work overtime in the last nine years, I got paid for it.
Gee-whiz! Shazam! How did that happen???
Well, I'd guess if people stopped all this pissing, moaning, and whining, and blaming the Republican boogey-men for everything that went wrong with their lives, they might be able to accomplish something.
But, it's always easier to whine about the raw deal you get in your life, instead of actually moving one's lazy ass, and fixing your lot in life.
I guess it's one of two ways to improve one's immediate situation: whine about being a victim. Have people feel sorry for you, and offer some words of comfort and understanding. Even though you still get shafted at work, at least everyone says nice things to you, because they feel some compassion for your miserable plight.
The other one, of course, is to do something besides complaining. That's obviously much more difficult than just sitting around and complaining. Not everyone's up to it, I suppose.
Nope, I'm not worried about this new law that came out of the Beltway. Not at all. It doesn't affect me directly at all.
I'll let you in on a little secret. The trick is to build your career in such a way so that you are the one who's mostly responsible for the direction where life takes you. Not some politician in Washington. Not some politician in Albany. You. It's your life. It's up to you to control it.
But, I guess, not everyone can do that. But everyone can whine. I think I'll go and reinvest my profits from buying shares of adult diaper manufacturers. I'll buy a few shares of Kleenex now, with all this loot.
YOU are the one who should be answers this question. Nobody has the answer to this question except for you. You are the only person in the world who is in charge over your life. Not George Bush. Not George Pataki. Not Sally Struthers.
Stop asking other people for answering to your life's question. That's your job, and nobody else's. If you really want answers to these kinds of questions, call the Psychic Friends Network.
Yeah, I'm sure that George Bush has a few hours a day set aside for the specific task of making sure that you earn only $8,000 a year. Sure. I have no problem believing that.
I recall that nine years ago my former boss wanted me to work twelve hours a day, unpaid overtime, to launch a system into production. For some strange reason I did not think to blame Bill Clinton for the predicament I found myself in. It just never crossed my mind.
Instead pissing, bitching, and moaning, I did three things:
1. I figured out how I ended up in this predicament, and what I needed to do in order to fix it.
2. I told my former boss to go and pleasure himself.
3. I followed the game plan in item #1.
And that was the last time I was ever asked to work unpaid overtime. Never happened again. And it will never happen again, as long as I can help it.
***THAT*** is why I'm in the condition I'm in. When it catches up to YOU, I'll break out some kleenex too. :)
Spare the expense. You won't ever catch me bitching about it. Did I happen to mention that I'm having some difficulty finding jobs in New Yawk? There are some jobs here, but not a lot. After religiously scanning the job boards, I see that more jobs are available in mid-north Jersey, but I can't commute there right now.
Do you know what I'm doing right now? I'm moving to bleeping Jersey!!! I spent the last four months of my life literally looking at every place that's up for sale in certain strategic areas which: A) Are convenient for public transit commute to NYC, and B) Are convenient for commuting by car to a job somewhere where I see a bunch of jobs listed in the papers. In the last couple of years many businesses have slowly been defecting (hee-hee, I originally wrote "defecating" here, but caught it right before posting, even though "defecating" would make more sense context-wise) from NYC over to NJ, obviously due to cost factor-related issues. I'm beginning to see the effects of that right now. So, what am I doing about it? Am I bitching about whatever politician I feel is responsible for the high cost of doing business in NY? No. I'M MOVING!!!
Gee -- what a novel concept! If there aren't any jobs where you live, then you MOVE!!! Golly-shazam! What will they think of next...
Oh, and for chrissakes, put your head on and figure out why in hell your tax bill is twelve grand. Don't ask me, I don't know why. You tell me. You live over there, not me. It's your tax bill, not mine.
Since I've been looking at real estate prices in Jersey, I can tell you that you need to have property appraised over a million dollars before you get a tax bill of that size. And I understand that Jersey taxes are higher, on average than New York's.
Nobody has any business living in a multi-million dollar mansion if they're only making $8,000? Whose fault is that??? Did George Bush imprison you in your castle, or something?
JUST REMEMBER ... that all the violations of the consitution YOUR boy put into effect will HOLE in the NEXT administration. Oh, the joy of declaring you ALL "terrorists" and "taking you OUT." Black helicopters, they're not Clinton's anymore.
REMEMBER WACO, We'll FIND you. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Democrates can be fun people too:-)
So can Republicans
And if you can believe it, we both admitted there is some validity in the positions of the other political partie's positions:-)
I honestly most people can see the other party's positions and can debate openly in a friendly manner. It's only on talk radio and the TV News networks where there is so much hatred for the other side, but that's what sells advertising time!!!
No. life has just been SERIOUSLY sucking since MOST of our former business came from "old Europe" where privacy and security concerns are REAL, and folks there remember the horrors of yer "big one, dubyadubya eye eye" ... and the various death squads that rose in between. Europeans are FAR more "interactive" with what they decide to buy than Americans, whose idea of quality is whether Franklin Mint makes it or if it's on their home page on AOL right there with the OTHER 200 popups. :(
But in OTHER parts of the world, where "free" isn't as important as "WORKS", we'd made our living. When Shrub did his "old Europe" thing with Rummy and blew off "de Krauts" and "de Frogs", we made a pretty fair living - like ANY "small business," not great, but not BAD either. Once brainboy pythed off the entire planet though, America was subjected to a WORLDWIDE boycott (highest unemployment in 20 years right now, but Shrub ain't got a CLUE) ... that HURT immenesely.
Lemme put it to you THIS way - The FRENCH offered us $100,000 to move there - they're customers ... the CHINESE offered us $50,000 and they would give us a building. Other nations, hearing of the situation, have offered us a smaller amount, all because they use our stuff for their MILITARY. And they've inspected us enough to detrmine that we ain't doing anything "sneaky" like the "major names" in the security business. Even got an offer from RUSSIA where our internal encryption code would allow us to make a KILLING financially, selling to Al Qaeda and others needing the highest quality of what we do.
Alas, Nancy and I *LOVE* living in upstate New York and would PREFER to remain here ... but we're getting screwed in 360 different directions. And yes, we've even been contacted by North Korea and Iran. If SHRUB is what America's all about, it's SERIOUSLY been making me wonder. Should I RETAIN the moral values our customers have been guaranteed since our inception in 1995, or should I do the "republican thing" and move to China, sell our stuff to North Korea and chuckle in delight as Chicago disappears under a mushroom cloud? :(
Bad economies CAUSE that kind of thought among true entrepeneurs ... that's why 95% of what's on the shelf in your local store comes from CHINA, or VIETNAM. America? Love it or leave it? It's been given a LOT of thought in this house lately. :(
I think Pyongyang has a subway that you could railfan ...
Terrorists 12
US PATRIOTS 0
To paraphrase Chief Edward Crocker, FDNY, 1899-1910:
I have but one ambition in this world, and that is to be an EMT.
To some, the profession may appear to be a lowly one.
But we who know the work an EMT has to do consider this a noble calling.
The nobility of the occupation thrills us,
and inspires us to deeds of great daring;
Even of supreme sacrifice.
In other words, this is what I do, and NYC will always be the place in which I do it. Bush and Co. are, however, removing my disposable income, with which I might have made consumer-goods purchases. All that extra $$$ can't help our economy if it ain't there...I won't move away, but I won't spend above necessity, either.
I suspect thousands of transit workers, who, like me, want nothing more than to work in their "noble calling", that is, NYCT, feel the same as I do...
"America is no longer a world leader, it is a has been."
Now, in many many other nations, to make such a statement can endanger your life. Could this be one of the reasons why the emigration rate outta here is basically negative nil? I say, if yu really feel that way, analyze the world data, zero in on possible "other places" to inhabit, and go inhabit them. Thank you, the rest of us got work to do.
That's what happens when you live in a town where you can marry your cousin.
The biggest flaw in marx's ttheory is that it totaly ignored human nature of people who need motivation to and something to live for
Once the issue of putting food ont he table is met humans tackle the next problem up the ladder which is the greater issue of happiness.
marx's assumes that as long as people are fed and givin somethng to do they will be happy.
With no incentive to work harder, a lack of inovation occurs and the quaility of services and life declines and little progrees is made in society
The board of ed is a perfect example. Some teachers with tenure loose the drive to work hard. with no threat of being fired except killing or molesting a student, these teacher exist driving down the quaility of education for our children. The principla is powerless as to motivate the individual as no matter what he/she does the offending teacher still gets paid
Leadership, however, is another thing. There have been times in America’s history when it has clearly been a world leader, and has been respected as such. There have been times in America’s history when America has been extremely isolationist.
Then there is the present, when America wants to be a world leader, but has unfortunately come off looking like a big schoolyard bully.
John
See, I'm just thinking that it's probably less of a "...wants to be..." and more of a "has to be" thing. If you think of what "America" means, that is, the implied concepts of individual freedoms within a law-abiding matrix, it's clear that anybody else can emulate this system. Nobody can stop them from doing so. But it is so obvious that many many nations don't have the opportunity or, more likely, the will to accomplish this. So instead they watch like vultures every move we make and connive and scheme in the dark like thieves in the night.
You can lambaste this country all you want. But show me any other paradigm to follow that has been proven so damn right for so long. Isn't that the most honest way to look at it? Would you be willing to emigrate to any other country?
Sure. Assuming the ability to earn enough to maintain a similar lifestyle, I could live easily in Canada, Great Britain, or any of the European Common Market countries, and probably in Australia or New Zealand.
Tom
Nothing personel, but the above nation make it hard for non-citzens to accept jobs unless thier is a true need
If these rules were enforced here, there would be far less job shortages where illegal immigrants steal good paying jobs from legal reidents of our city
The construction industry is a prime example as is the resturant industry.
It is not so much the good paying jobs that illegal immigrants are taking. It is the poor paying jobs that the employers claim Americans do not want. The truth of the matter is that they could find Americans to take those jobs if they paid more. However, employers are quite happy to keep the employment laws weak, so they can pay low wages and get rid of troublemakers who want things such as overtime or safe working conditions by dropping a dime to immigration on them.
Tom
That is not always the case.
Construction jobs that pay between $25-60 a hour are being filled with illegal immigrants making $50-$150 a day
Employers often prefer to fill a job with an eager immigrant than a lazy former welfare receipient that is mad at the world and has NO work ethic because he knows the govenment will bail them out
There was a construction accident back in 200o where a small apartmetn builing under developments floors collapsed while a few mexican laborers poured one of the cement floors(the cause of the acccident was not the mexican laborers buy rather smaller then rewuired steel beams) The powerful hisidic developer all but stoped DOI's case at the pushing of the local concilman who delivered the hisidic community to guiliani.
It was not until a secound collapse that the case was procecuted. these apartmetns were selling for $300k a peice with the cost of union labor factored in.
Uh huh. There ya go. So...what percentage of those countries you mentioned offer the majority of those citizens the opportunity to do so, at least to the equivalent of what "enough" is here. Greater than 50%? What exactly would you be giving up as a new citizen of that country? How about the tax situation?
See? It probably isn't anywhere near similar.
Unfortunately, the reality is less than that ideal. There have been times in recent history where America has not lived up to its goals. Japanese-American internment? McCarthy?
I would say, in all honesty, that I am an expatriate Briton living in America. Britain has its own, different, skeletons: Profumo, Burgess/Philby/McClean/Blunt.
And I’m voting with my feet: I chose to come from Britain to the USA. I am still here. However, if it were not for some personal reasons, (I am the only relative of a 76-year old Aunt who is here), I would strongly consider returning to the UK.
I can only hope that in 2004, with a change in leadership, that America again lives up to the ideals on which it was founded.
John
In THIS aspect, I've learned AWESOME respect for tht sheer quality, evasiveness (not a ONE is successfully snared by Antivirus, not ONE) and just plain STONES they have when the implant on systems, PARTICULARLY when the hit Win2000 and XP "servers" ... wowsers. A long time ago, we were literally headed to raid the DEPENDS aisle when a binder/encrypter called "Digital Spawn" ... some early betas were released, but they were more hosed than XPee. :)
Bottom line, NEVERMIND the dragon clips ... beware CHINESEHACK! Heh. (damned sure makes ME work for a damned "living".
Is that what the Broadway el is being called these days? ;^)
Don't be deceived by what's for the most part just window-dressing. Sure, Shanghai's full of skyscrapers, so's Guangzhou (or whatever Canton is called these days), but go not too far out of either city and you'll be in villages where daily life hasn't changed significantly in 500 years. I read not too long ago that almost half of the people living in China have never seen a foreigner in person! China's modern aspect is a mile wide and an inch deep. Other Asian countries have the same sort of superficial development, albeit to a lesser extent.
Not unlike the US of the early to mid 20th century where the west of the mississippi was largely farms and the east coast contained all the facctories
1) A population large enough to buy products produced in large mass produced quantitities allowing companies to survive even if foreign demand subsides
2) A Large willing workforce the is willing to do what it takes, study as much as it takes to get the job done. It was the american frounteir never quit attitude that propelled us over the socialistic societies of europe into the worlds most dominiante power
In the US especially in cities like NY, a socialistic society has emeged where people make excuses for people and don't force people to earn thier own way, sink or swim. Two generations of missguilded welfare programs originally concieved as a ways to smooth over the rough spots providing assistance to get people back on thier feet have turned into permenant assistance which prevent people from taking the initive to swim
Unions that are needed have overstepped thier boundries from their origins as ensurers that employers such as FORD motor which was working it's workers to the bone did not excessivly mistreat it's workers to organizations in some cases that want to be co-ceo or in the case of the UFT(which I am a memember) co-chancelors of the school system and have become politcal organizations wjere union leaderships lives it up on the high life at the expense of the workers they represent
Housing programs that have sent the price of housing in NYC through the roof especially section 8 and scatter site programs where govenement artificially drives the price of apartmetns up by providing people with money to match the landlords asking price. If noone can afford the landlords asking price, he needs to lower his price until someone can afford it. Housing prices in manahattan south of 96th street are down this year by 15% because of low demand.
Poorly written rent control laws that allow renters to sublease out thier apartemtns at a profit while landlords need to raise the price of decontroled apartmetments in order to stay afloat. Rent control laws have decreased the supply of affordable housing pushing the price of remaing housing higher
An educational systems that did not adapt to the changing world. A system that took for granted our current prosperity. It was ok not to challenge students at a young age when 3/4 of the population would end up working in a factory, construction or farming which did not need a strong command of math and science. Todays students need to compeate with students all over the world. Students in china and india where people are much poorer realize that they need to bust thier butt to learn math, sciencce, english and computer technology or risk starving to death. In china people sell thier blood and organs just to put food on the table.
In this country advocates cry that we are working our children too hard. This is not just a problem in poor communities but in middle class communities as well. More then half the students in science and engineering programs at major universities are not american citizens. 3/4 of the students were not born in the US. The days of partyng your way through college on some BS liberal arts degree are over. The computer science program I attended at SUNY Stonybrook required 25-30 hours while the english program at SUNY StonyBrook required 5-10 hours a week of homework. English program 95% american born students. Computer science 25% american students, 10% granduated with CS degree
We need to shape our act up in this country. Too many young people are educated by MTV and not by the school systems. This will lead to our downfall. Children from families with strong parents who make sure thier child stays clear of the MTV and WWE view of the world will suceed. Most other's will fail.
Money needs to be diverted from wastefull governement spending such as keeping unneeded s/a on duty, traffic checkers and dispatchers which are no longer needed and put into education and scientific reaearch
The funny part is that many of the scientists employed by the govenment are not us citizens. They are chinease and indian
The cable guy just rang my bell and rushed the post
Not all. Chinatown in Manhattan, and probably many of its counterparts elsewhere, is a very poor neighborhood. Chinese immigrants in NYC have lower average incomes than Haitian immigrants.
The NY times had a good article a few months back stating that many chinease once they save a bit of money head out to towns without chinease resturaunts to persue the american dream
His family worked thier ass off to get him a computer so that he could study computer science.
Never a complaint. He was happy to be in a place where if he worked hard he could earn a nice living for his family
In addtion many of my freinds from brooklyn tech who lived in china town, dirt poor, parents worked in sweat shops are doing quite well
The statistics of wages in chinatown are misleading becasue as soon as someone gets thier feet under them they move to a better area replced with the thousands of new immigrants that arrive daily.
NYC is becaoming one big new immigrant reception area. Middle clas people are being forces out by hight taxes and the jobs that move becase of them leaving a smaller and smaller number of people to pay the bill while the advocacy groups presure the city to give out more public assitance.
The NYTIMES reported yeaterday that NY state is the easiest state in the union to get welfare bennifites or public assistance attracting thousands of out of state people every year
This got to stop
Old, old, old news.
It is up to thier family to remind them of where they came from and not to allow them to fall into the traps success.
Some will inevitably get lazy and fat on the lamb of success. IF you study the plights of large family run coorporations, one of the biggest problems is keeping the next generation focused on striving foward.
It is a natural cycle seen throughout the history of the world. A new society rides to become the most dominant, stayts there for a period of time and then falls as they become lazy and then are taken over by a more hungry society.
We have the bennifit of history book telling us the perils of success. It is clear as to what needs to be done. The flight of IT jobs overseas is the result direct result of our failure to train our own people to work in the feild. The importion of foreign labor from india(nothing against indian people) has resulted in coorporate americas comfort with outsourcing. The comfort level is a direct result of having to outsource some as a result of a severe worker shortage
It is not too late to reverse the tide but a sea change has to occur in the political ranks. Bloomber took a good first step wiping out much of the beurocracy at the board of ed. The principle at my school thinks the new Middle school math program is too hard because the kids coming into middle school are so poorly prepared in grade school. Many children in this country are completly unaware of the challenges that lie ahead and what needs to be done NOW in grade school and middle school in order to prepare themselves for the future. The summer math program for which I am teaching in where most students failed the standardize math exam with a 0 or 1 on a scale of for are not lost causes. In the two weeks they have been in my class they have come a long way. I just wonder what the teachers during the regualar school year were doing
The same is said about rich families. The first generation knows poverty and overcomes it with hard work for the money and saves and invests it wisely. The second generation has seen how his father worked and has healthy respect for what money can do and manages it well. The third generation has known nothing but wealth and luxury from birth and begins to waste and lose the inherited wealth.
Tom
This is known as the "stupid grandson" scenario. Seagram Corporation is a perfect example.
You are correct. The 21st Century BC is a Chinese one.
AD is all American.
Not unlike Sea Cliff
At the end of the war, the USA was in a position to pour funding into Western Europe under the Marshall plan as the infrastruture of the USA had not been damaged during WWII. Keep in mind that, excluding Pearl Harbor, not one enemy bullet hit the USA. Compare this with the state of the USSR after WWII. It's infrastructure was heavily damaged by the years of war, and the Soviets suffered casualties that dwarfered the USA's. 10 million were killed just during the seige of Stalingrad. And virtually all the means of production of the USSR were packed up and moved east of the Ural montains to avoid the German attack.
When you put the outcome of the cold war in a little prospective, I think a fair minded person would have to say the Soviet Union did a hell of a job just competiting.
I'm not an anti-American, I just wanted to add a little historical background to the debate.
And then there was the thousand-day siege of Leningrad, in which some of the dead were "recycled" as food for the living.
Uh, aren't you forgetting some small military actions which the Western Allies were involved in in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy? (He asked sarcastically)
My man point was that the Soviet Union suffered from the ravages of the war being fought on their soil, something the USA didn't have to deal with. Had WWII ravaged the infrastructure of America the way it did that of the USSR, I believe the cold war would have run a different course.
It is true that the battles in Italy were some of the fiercest in the war, but they were relatively small and weren't that important to the outcome of the war, but were a great waste of Allied manpower due to the fact that the geography and topography of the "soft underbelly of Europe" greatly aided the defenders
Military historians generally agree that the Germans did not fortify the monastery at Monte Cassino, which was used by civilian refugees during the early fighting, but once the Americans reduced it to rubble with their air attacks (after warning the civilians to leave), the Germans moved into the rubble in force, and the rubble of the 15 ft. thick walls proved to be a formidable fortification.
Tom
That means nothing. The governments are funding the world’s tallest building crap. The truth is that these buildings are 3/4 empty.
The problem in this country is we no longer have the talent to innovate in new technologies. The local political and union leaders don't realize that the US niche in this world is intellectual knowledge. Our leadership over the last century was based on creating and deploying new technologies to keep us ahead of the curve.
Our local representatives do everything they can to obstruct the deployment of new technology. The station agents provide security argument is a perfect example. Another is the efforts by the union 40 years ago to stop manufactures from installing new equipment that reduced the labor intensiveness of some manufacturing processes. The end result was the loss of many manufacturing jobs to the south
I know this is off topic but are you interested in having some cold ones, hamburgs and dogs with a fellow talker (and his wife) from Altamont? I know you are going thru some tough times. If I can help we're here.
But you're just a couple of miles from here!
I know this is off topic but are you interested in having some cold ones, hamburgs and dogs with a fellow talker (and his wife) from Altamont? I know you are going thru some tough times. If I can help we're here.
If YOU want to live the rest of your life hiding in shadows, and running for cover every time you hear something in the air, and preaching doom and gloom to anyone who'd listen, that is certainly your privilege; however I am really not interested in hearing it. I've been hearing the same doom-and-gloom speech (with only cosmetic variations) from various people for over a decade now, and happily ignoring all of it.
Me, I prefer to maintain an optimistic outlook on life. I'll just do the best I can, no matter what the circumstances are; grab a railfan window whenever one's available; and ignore the doom-and-gloom/professional-victim crowd.
You have to understand, to the typical, provincial-thinking, world-ends-at-the-Hudson Manhattanite, moving to New Jersey is akin to the pioneers of the 1800's setting out on the Oregon Trail for the frontier.
Wrong. Equalized tax rates in the fifty-three townships of Monmouth County, New Jersey ranged from 0.933 to 4.046 in 2001 (equalized rate is computed by taking the assessed rate, adjusted for average percentage of true value in the assessment) - my own township, Eatontown, had an assessed rate of 2.982 that year, with an equalized rate of 2.737. So, in my town, a house with 12K in taxes would be worth (actual value, not appraised) just over 438K. (There are only a few houses in town in that price bracket, however... most are under 200K.) And most rates are in that bracket. Deal, where the adjusted rate is 0.933, has very few homes below the million dollar mark (average valuation is $1.6 million), and since there are very few children who attend public school living there it doesn't have the expense of a public school system (it's far cheaper to send the half-dozen children to an adjacent town and pay tuition).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I lived in that third world country for over 30 years.
See the problem of paying people that are no longer needed such as station agents, traffic checkers and most dispatchers at NYCT is a higher tax bill which forces companies with option to mover where it costs them less to operate. Many companies have choosen NJ where the cost of operating is sometimes as much as 30% less
Meanwhile are local political idiots with their big salaries "fight for the average NYer" by preventing the mta form reducing costs that are causing higher taxes and middle class new yorkers to move out of state. 3/4 of the people living in my neighborhood have moved out of the city following thier jobs. Living in Marine Park, our neighborhood is a s suburban as it gets in the 5 boroughs. People left because their companies they worked for moved out to LI or NJ due to the high taxes taking the middle class operations positions with them
Bill
The answer is quite simple actually - I've paid what taxes I *could* aand HAVEN'T paid the remainder. THAT'S why I'm up against the wall now. I owe the county, I owe the school district, the feds and the state. THAT'S the problem.
Back when Clinton was in office, it was easy to do in excess of $100K a year. I don't get paid by the hour, I get paid $4.00 per SALE. With the economy in the toilet, nobody's comparing to the past. We keep hearing that the economy is "rebounding" and so hopefully this will change. But my income has been $8,000 for the year - that's for real. So is the taxes, $12,000 for the year. That's real too. But there's the reality I'm in ... I depend on folks having money to spend. They don't. Our MAIN business is government, military, schools and corporate purchasers. NONE of them are buying. But there ya are.
You'd THINK that the WACO party would be in a dither over all this. Nope, their boy is in, and who CARES if the UN does military exercises in Michigan anymore? The Michigan MILITIA has bingo nights now. Heh.
OH, how I wish I could go off on a diatrbie right now ... oh how I wish, but out of respect for Dave our host who's trying DESPERATELY, by personal interaction to lead us aways from THIS stuff, I won't ... the reason why I'm incensed personally is my OWN personal situation now that foreign customers find it SO overbearing to buy our stuff that we're near broke (foreign sales were ALWAYS where we made our money) and having to pay more in property and SCHOOL taxes than I make (forget the OTHER taxes imposed on those making $8000 a year upstate) I'm just OVER the top pythed off.
My apologies to Dave, but needed to explain why Uncle Selkirk is *SO* twisted these days ... for those of you who don't know my NORMAL spirit, check out the pages in the archives here as of 9/11/2001 and beyond where I offered a bit of sanity I no longer have for myself. I once was a useful and fun person to have here - and hopefully I will be again somehow. The "deal" with the "foreign government" I mentioned a few days ago has been rejected by *OUR* government, so I'm deep in poo once again. :(
Just in case you wondered - if we had an ECONOMY, maybe things would be different. Got word TODAY that I have no credit cards anymore. Aggh.
I'm sorry to hear that your business seems to be in the donicker. If you don't mind a suggestion, maybe it's time to throw in the towel. I know, in some sense that's sort of like giving up and admitting defeat, but there is such a thing as throwing good money after bad. One of the characteristics of successful businesspeople is knowing when to fold 'em.
The INTERNET doesn't care - only moron politicos who don't realize that they CAN'T hold small business captive anymore (other than bodegas of course) can stand in the way ... but we're at a HORRIBLE disadvantage being an AMERICAN business ... if we moved ANYWHERE else, the worldwide PHUCK AMERICA boycott wouldn't be an impediment to us. Highest unemployment numbers in TWENTY YEARS ... could it be "bring it on? Could it be "Old Europe?"
I was BORN in the USA, and I've ALWAYS been proud to be an American. But let's be real - Shrub's the worst "pollock joke" ever told. And the rest of the world doesn't want to DEAL with America as long as SHrub is our "leader" ... they'd settle for NEWT GINGRICH even, but "brainboy" has put the REST of the planet over the top. Since there's talk that he'll get RE-elected, American HAS been written off by the rest of the world, even the chinese. Imagine if they all cut us off?
Not like we MAKE anything here anymore - we'd be *so* SCROOD.
Have you checked out the possibility of returning to the auld sod in the area of Dublin? That's where I would want to go if I were running an internet company. They at least have high speed internet access. And as a bonus, they appreciate the skillful turning of a phrase.
Tom
At DOI and state attorney generals office and FBI entry level investigators are slapped with the confidential tittle and are not elligible for overtime.
DOI gives comp time that can be redeemed as extra vacation time. But concidering each employee already gets 5 weeks vacation the compt time means crap
" you can BET that TSS' and other "management titles" will go straight for it"
Managment titles at most companies already don't get overtime. There are two reasons. One if the managed thier group better they should not need to stay late. Two if you are the manager who to say that ther overtime was justified
"But REST ASSURED, in MANY places overtime is paid to the white collar workforce."
Most possitions where employers slap on a professional tittle and/or are entry level into careers that may be quite lucrative such as entry level wall street jobs such as reasearch ananlyst, staff accounting positions, auitors, lawyers don't pay overtime. Employers play off the workers desire to climb the latter and make the right impression.
The big accounting firms such as Price Waterhouse Coopers pay thier accountants a flat salary even thought they often rent them out at $300 an hour to clients. IF you want to move up you need to put the hours in. My problem always was that most of the time you needed to stay late was because the boss screwed up
Most people working in Information Technology don't get paid overtime. Thier is a provision stating that computer professionals are not entitiled. The rumor around th office always was the the reason was that the bosses had no clue what was going on and that workers could invent issues to stay late(once again a rumor)
As to salaried positions, the intent of the economic regime was UPPER management, and indentured servants with stock ownership, bonuses and other inducements to "do whatever was required" as far as hours worked to accomplish the divisional goals. And at the same time, if that same manager was out doing the back 40 at the golf club when things were just humming along, nobody complained EITHER. This TOO is no longer reality.
Yeah, know all about IT, that's what I've been doing the past 15 years or so. When I was getting paid $255,000 a year, NO PROBLEM. Now that I'm making about $8,000 a year, they can kiss my hairy BUTT. And to make matters worse, I STILL have to do the work - just today, I was up since 9AM YESTERDAY and the workload is still cooking on this end. All *I* get paid is about $4.00 for every copy of what I wrote that gets sold. I don't GET a salary, I don't GET an hourly, and if someone is unhappy with what we do here, all it takes is ONE unhappy customer to put me under completely. Thus, I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and do nothing but work. Once upon a time, we HAD employees here. The workload hasn't diminished, but the number of people to DO it has shrunk down to just me until such time as the economy comes back, we start selling more of our software and can give some folks a nice job in a really great environment out here in the woods of upstate.
So yeah, I hear you ... but that don't make it RIGHT. This "overtime" thing Shrub shovelled through for his pals at oh so many evil places is just another nightstick up the butt for the people that actually *PAY* taxes ... :(
Plus I rather adept in the equities trading markets to make a few extra dollars to pay the bills if needed.
When the money was flowing like water into my pocket I did not mind as much, but concidering all the outsourcing and other inititives that are taking place, It is not worth it for me. A freind has helped me out and got me into a good school where the prinicpal and teachers are very supportive.
If the IT market every heats up again I can always take a leave of absent from teaching and get back into the game.
I can't take BUSH jr. He turns my stomach.
Nah the TWU workforce is too powerful to even consider such a thing, look what happened with the negotiations in December & they nearly went on strike. I could see it happening in the state & city but what would be worse layoffs or no overtime?
But hey, I'm sure there will be bonuses for the execs once again, and of course those dividends. But yeah, this IS outrageous. Slavery is back, and this time it's "equal opportunity" and based solely on economic status rather than skin color alone. :(
I know, this is truely tragic :-(
I would put that blame on the useless UN and its U.S. & Israel hating members. Wouldn't the East side of First Av between 42nd and 47th make a good spot for a condo?
Highest unemployment rate in 20 years. Yeah, this'll help bring shoppers back to the stores. :-\
Actually the sad part is many people do not understand that only the very rich benefit from these tax cuts. Many people I know think they are getting something of real value when this dufus goes around touting his "tax cut for everyone who pays taxes". I make in the mid 40's, I would guess that is somewhat above average. Yet I get a tax cut that mean nothing to me. I would most definately prefer that money be used to help ease suffering here and abroad. No matter how you look at it, I cannot believe that someone making over 1 million dollars a year is so hurt by the current tax system that he is suffering and needs this tax cut. The whole statigy of the far right is to defund the federal government so that they can use the unprecidented national debt as an excuse to gut key programs such as medicaid, medicare and social security.
And don't think this completely off topic, funding of mass transit will also be on the hit list - no cuts to fund highways for every armadillo in Texas, but a few subway cars for NYC - forget about it.
But hey, I got my six bucks!
Then move to a more affordable locale.
the problem is most of the crapy neighborhoods are crappy because govenment supported low income housing
Once again the middle class worker gets forced out while the advocacy group sues to help the poor illegal mexicans on the corner
And I have to question the thinking, Bush needs to get the economy going or he will have some trouble in 2004. Yet his prime tool is tax cuts for the rich. Yet the rich aren't going to spend the money, the working class will spend it. But no one every accused him of being too bright. I only hope he lets his idiology blind him and he gets shown the door in '04
It's okay man, don't worry. You can still live here. We have always tried to help the less fortunate at least attempt to better themselves. Even the "very very very nervous" in our midst. And you, my brother, fall into that classification. Shall I respond in kind? Nah, this is a place for trains. I'd rather leave you with this:
BLLLLLZZZZZZZZZ!!!! (That's a good ol' Bronx Cheer)
p.s.: Cheer up, ya knucklehead. Boy, you livin' in the best place in the world and all you can do is go "Wah Wah Wah". Wake up and partake of our miracle. Take a train ride to calm down.
Won't happen until the current contract expires and the next contract negotiations begin, but this is something the state's been itching for since public perception is that public employees are overpaid anyway. Hourlies are covered, but state wages are based on SALARIES, not hourly wages ... look it up. Even car cleaners are given what is called in civil service "BASE PAY" which is legally considered a SALARY even if it's minimum wage ... that's the angle that can be played ...
Our lawgivers are known for their Holland Tunnel sized "loopholes" which allow some interesting interpretations. :)
Congressman: So we can break them, of course, my dear.
Don't get too upset about it. Since you are self-employed, you are already a slave. Perhaps those computer programmers still with the company won't be laughing at you anymore.
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/
They RECORD the damage every day ... and folks wonder why the rest of the planet's said, "have fun, America, this is our stop ... have a NICE day." :(
What bothers me most is that I believe that W is not like some, who know that they are manipulative a***s, and have specific ends in mind. W actually believes what he says.
Think about it: if daddy weren’t who he was, would anyone have paid this ignoramus any attention?
That all said, most folks go blythely ignorant of how EVERY nation on this planet feels about our "we got a new Sheriff in town, and his name NOT be Reggie Hammond" asshat. Even the Canadians and the Brits (our CLOSEST friends) have had to redefine the word "dork" so as not to insult the "deficient." If it weren't for the "African Uranium" and the "Waepons of Mass Distraction" stuff, then the rest of the world would have well been satisfied to sit on the sidelines and let us self-destruct - knowing that in 2004, even Yankee fans would have seen the light and elected a TOASTER, ANYTHING to replace our mental midget in chief ... alas, the POLLS say that America BELIEVES in this boy.
THAT is what has shot down world opinion. That's what made Deutsche Bank pull the plug on lower Manhattan, that's what's caused them and most of the rest of the international banking, insurance and commodities entities say "this AIN'T going to get better soon" and relocate in Toronto and Montreal and say "you folks were dumb enough to do NAFTA, we don't HAVE to be in your country, we'll just do it from the border. Anyway, I'm going completely off topic here now, so I'll stop. Bottom line, if you think the economy sucks now, just wait until NEXT year. Shrub's asleep at the switch and America needs a LEADER. Since we ain't got one, let's just unzip our pants and water the shrub. :(
He is doing what he thinks is right not what is politically correct for his party
He had the guts the stand up to the fire union and close down a few unneeded fire houses which every mayor since the 1970's his identified as redundant but did not have the balls to do anything about. Koch, Dinkins and Guiliani are all on the record in support of the fire house closings
the advocacy groups knowning that they are wrong are wasting taxpayers money on a lawsuit to keep on house open a few extra months on a technicality that the FDNY needs to alert the comminity members on roosevelt island of thier new backup firehouse 90 days in advance.
Bloomberb had the balls and ware with all to re-invent the board of ed and not allow the UFT(for which I now am a memeber as of two weeks ago) to act as co-chanceller of the Dept of ed blocking needed reforms. All of the reforms in the long run HELP teachers. it is much easier to teach a child who is up to grade level and has a good foundation then one who can not read a clock(a student in my 8ty grade summer school class can not tell time on a clock or tell you what months is after septemeber)
NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/10/nyregion/10MATT.html
Not so, said the chancellor, intent on loosening up a system hidebound with contractual rules. "I am prepared to make tough decisions," Mr. Klein said yesterday. "I would much prefer it if change took place with agreement rather than disagreement. But in the end, if you compromise everything away, you won't be able to make the changes you need."
To make a long story short, any good willed outsider of the political process is going to be mistreated as bloomberg is in the press. The reason is quite simple. The press and political and union elite have an unwritten partership providing each other with publicity and news to report to their readers.
Bloomberg scare's both to death. The polticians becasue he want to runt he city in the best interest of the people not thepolitical bosses.
The union, a better run operation such as the MTA has happier employees who will see less and less need for a large union brain trust threating the bigwigs and reps big salaries and purpose
The newspapers, they will actually have to spend more money researching and investigation to come up with enough interesting stories to fill thier pages and newscasts. it is much easier for someone to feed you a story. In the late 1990's due to the lower incidents of violent crime and fires(big ratings stories) the newspapers and TV stations decided to attack the police on brutality issues. This is not my opinion but stated fact reported by the NYTIMES back in 1996
Bloomberg though, I'm not so sure lately ... I suspect he's making the BIGGEST mistake any politico can make, letting his EGO get mixed up in a heartless and thankless job. Politicians CANNOT be "loved" even IF they do the right things, look at Bubba. He made the SAME mistake. You have to do what NEEDS to be done, and to hell with everybody if it's the RIGHT and MORAL choice (the latter capitalized word lets out republicans who paint themselves with the word, just like they drape themselves in the flag and then pyth on both by not FOLLOWING a true moral imperative) ...
Bloomberg *HAS* managed to keep a city afloat with less income than BEAME had, and for THAT he is to be commended, but the boy REALLY needs to come upstate, light up some ganga and kick back. :)
There's PLENTY of waste in NYC governance, almost as much in STATE governance ... and in BOTH cases, the phat ain't flowing to anyone who REALLY needs it. :(
Dinkins what put in a bad spot. The african american community(Don't let my Carribean freinds hear me use that term, they prefer black, they don't call white people european americans) Expected him to bend over backwards always supporting them. For two long Black politicians and community activists have blames the "white man" for all thier problems and now that a black man was in charge, who are they going to blame. Blame the advocacy groups who poison thier own citizens with misinformation while they line thier pockets.
I seem to remember the 125th street parking garage built by the city to fund 125th street redevelopment monies went into one of dinkins freinds pockets for drivers and expensive cars.
Dinkins was a nice man but an ineffective mayor. Bloombergs biggest problem is his unwillingness to grandstand and bloat about his accomplishments as mayor and thier are many.
The Board of ed re-org. Lets just say I have just witnessed the fruits of the re-org. In may the community school district office for which I worked with to gain my teaching credentials had 18 secretaries on staff, countless other people who were chatting it up most of the day. The secretaries more or less did nothing and were not helpful when you asked them questions. A colosal waste of money
Today, One secretarty for the 5 remaining members of the office.
Bloomberg is willing to do what's right. The most important thing bloomberg can do for NYC in his final 2 years is to strip away the layers of buerocracy at city agencies getting rid of the dead wood and adding accountability. The saving can be returned to the taxpayers in better service and lower taxes which DO CREATE MORE JOBS.
Accomplishment # 2 turning an unprofitable glass and plastic operation which cost the city $60 ton to separate and eventually dump into a landfill into a program which will PAY THE CITY $9 a ton
A 311 system that allow city residents a central place to get problems solved. no more phone tag like in the past for which even if you called the correct agency they often told you to call someone else. The new system gives you tracking numbers and allows managment to track the call detail and what was done in responce to the request
And let's not forget one OTHER, MORE IMPORTANT, MAJOR thing. Folks in the city think their MAYOR and CITY HALL run the city. BUZZZZZZZZZ! If so, you're the weakest link, go do the Lemming thing.
Since BEAME (a democrat, so let's not slap the "L Bomb" on me here) rode the dark horse into bankruptcy (we'll forget that FORD said "drop dead") New York City has been operated by the MUNICIPAL ASSISTANCE CORPORATION and a contrivance of other "rulers" that are NOT of NYC origin. Joe Bruno and George Elmer Paturkey RULE the city ... NOT Bloomberg. NYC government is a puppet show, the STATE runs the city because it is STILL under the bankruptcy rules, even though it paid off the debt. As I've said many times, our lawgivers can MAKE ROCKS FLOAT.
Blame Dinkins? Yeah, he trusted some bad people - but he can go to his heavenly reward in a white robe ... he DID try to do the right thing even if everybody ELSE stabbed him. :(
Got one in Baltimore, and guess what?
Call 311, get the ol' run-a-round. Whoopie!! A centralized number to call for non-emergency problems. Still get the "call 396-xxxx" for lots of things.
Your city tax dollars at work. NOT.
I feel *MUCH* safer now, knowing that Colonie is safe from a terrorist attack because our vigilant telephone operators can dial us up and ask us if we've got Prince Albert in a can before snickering and hanging up. :)
I was grouching about our 311 system which does what I said.
That being said, I pay $2200.00 per year in property tax (for a small, 1928 vintage frame house). I go to the City Board of Estimates meeting every year and bitch about how much money is just plain thrown away.
We had a small problem with cars on my street being hit by paintballs. We know it's kids, but they hit between 6:30 and 8:00 AM. So I called 311 to get the cops to pay attention between those times, maybe we can catch the little suckers. What do I get told? I get to call the Northeastern District and complain.
Well, I happen to have the District Commander's phone number, so guess who I called?
For street lights, I have the numbers of both the city and electric company's street lighting chiefs. Which one I call depends on color of the band painted on the poles, black if BGE's, none if the city's.
For traffic light problems, you're suposed to call 311. I have the numbers of the Supervisor and the Chief Engineer in my electronic rolodex.
If I'm gonna write a $2200 check every year, I'm getting my $$$ worth, even if I have to be a PITA once in a while.
On topic item, but related to above:
At BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum), the City is our landlord, so we get the city for everything major on the buildings, which are all leased. We have the connections, so things get fixed FAST!!!
Which one, Koch or me?
Bush will be OUTTA HERE come November 2nd, 2004, mark my word and remember post #525844. He is a GONER, BYE, FINITO, AU REVOIR, ADIOS, HASTA LA VISTA BABY.
Meanwhile, the thug in chief continues to revive WorldCon/MCI, Imclone, and just today word is ENRON is BACK!!! Microsoft got away with Windows XPee and doesn't HAVE to fix it, McVomits got away with selling transfats, Tobacco industry just got off the hook - I swear, we'd be better off with phucking AL CAPONE as President ... unlike the republicans, the Cosa Nostra at least SPREAD IT AROUND the hood. :(
LEADERSHIP involves CONFIDENCE and MAKING people believe that the best is yet to come. Alas, we have REPUBLICAN DOOM. Daddy's out of work. :(
Too bad you have to be a U.S. citizen and U.S. born to be President or I would nominate Ariel Sharon, one of the few world leaders with balls!!!
He's got good approval ratings with those who pay the bills,
The Democrats haven't got a Donkey's Fart of a candidate yet, and a fractured support base.
So as much as you would like, you have to stand FOR something, because standing AGAINST something just isn't going to cut it.
Elias
But this "big hat with no cattle" REALLY has to go. Texans know what that phrase means. :(
And me, I'm a BARRY GOLDWATER conservative, straight and narrow, crooks is crooks no matter WHAT office they hold, and the job of the government is to LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE (Muslims included) UNLESS they decide to harm others. Government is there to do what the PEOPLE and the PRIVATE SECTOR CANNOT do for themselves. Government should stand aside otherwise - their ONLY function is that, and putting down bullies too big for the people or the states to take out on their own. Bullies like Enron, Worldcon, Halliburton (Dick Cheney) and others too big for their britches and availing themselves of interstate flight to avoid prosecution.
Government is a FACILITATOR, not an obstruction. That's why THIS conservative here is sounding more and more like Rush's tag of the "L bomb." Employment conditions BECAME a federal issue because of rampant abuse. During the 30's and 40's, unions mitigated the problem. Now that the bullies have kicked the chit out of the unions, it DOES fall on government to make it fair. I'm WITH a corporation. If government REALLY wanted to help out business (SMALL business, those of us who actually CREATE jobs) then government would put their efforts into helping us provide MEDICAL coverage and to hell with the flotsom over "minimum wage" ... paying employees a decent wage is no problem - paying for their HEALTH CARE is a KILLER. Fix THAT and the other problems are immaterial.
Aggggggh. I can't BELIEVE these GOP morons *DARE* to call themselves "conservatives" ... REALLY boils my butt. Fascists, maybe - CONSERVATIVES *know* the value of money, and of LABOR. :(
Unfortunitly most NYC politico's are onstructist first
Robin Hood in reverse ... ON VIAGRA ... and we LIKE getting boned the hard way! :-\
You have hit a chord near to my thinking. There are many (many) problems that go with the explosion of health care costs. Our business manager was bemoning our high health costs, and someone in the community said that when health costs were low, we were only living into our 70s. Now that we are paying more we are living into our 90s. (And thus having to pay more for longer).
Keep that thought in mind while we look at the health care issues.
On Drug Costs: You're damn right they are high! But let us be fair with the drug companies, research is very expensive. Hundreds of research scientists with MD and PhD degrees are not found on the cheap. It can take years for these good people to bring a drug to market. And for every drug that they make money on five to ten others never make it out of the labortory. The got to be able to recoup their money, and they can since it is clear that their stocks are doing well.
So how do you defray the costs of these drugs? Or how can you get research costs down. Well, getting the costs down is no big problem, you could get the government to do all of the research and development, and then they can just license a manufacturer to produce and distribute the pills. A good socilaist answer if ever there was one, and not likely to be passed very quickly either. The government should not be in business or compeating in business, especially in a business where there is competition, and profit.
(Unlike RAILROADS and TRANSIT {to keep on topic} where there is no competition or profit, but still a need for a service that perhaps can *best* provided by the public.)
So we come back to the issue of HEALTH CARE COSTS...
Yes they are high, but I wish we would ditch the word "Insurance".
It is NOT insurance. Insurance is something that you buy on your home or your car, you pay a premium, and hope to the good Lord that you NEVER have to collect a penny on that policy. THAT is what Insurance is.
Health Insurance is not insurance at all: You ARE planning on collecting on that policy, and you are EXPECTING to take out more than you put in, otherwise why in the world would you put anything into it in the first place.
So it is NOT Insurance: It is a FINANCE SCHEME. And there is nothing wrong with a finance scheme. Having identified it for what it is, is the first step to improving the product.
We have a minimum wage law in this country, and while it is unacceptably low at the moment, not having been revised since the early 90s, its revision could include a package of renumerations that include Health Financing. I would suggest that every employee over 25 hours / week be entitled to a "Basic Standard" Health Package as part of their minimum wage. For employees under this number, employers would have to pay into a pool for coverages of non-covered employees, the rates of which are contrived to encourage fulltime employmees rather than many part-time employees.
Then as part of every welfare package, the "Basic Standard" Health Package is included.
Since it is a negeotiable part of employment renumeration contracts, just as one negeotiates a higher wage or salary, one can negeotiate a more premium variety of Health Package. (Just to keep on topic... Amtrak still does sell first class accommodations.)
So private enterprises (albeit regulated) may offer these "Health Packages" as a financial product, rather than as an insurance product. (Different regulations and expectations, but at least calling a spade a spade and not pretending that it is a steam shovel.)
And GETTING THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE Insurance Business, which given the way that they run it (Our Ambulance squad has received NO MEDICARE reimbursements in the past year, but we still gotta carry their patients!) is a loosing proposition for the taxpayer, the rate payer, the patient and the providers.
< /Rant > Elias
Read the actual bill. It won't affect the vast majority of workers, including transit workers. It limits how overtime is defined as pertaining to managers. It will affect fewer than 700,000 workers nationwide. I hate to see generally intelligent people make suck idiots of themselves because they simply don't understand the facts involved.
Sorry for drawing YOU into this - YOU I respect - the folks that I've responded to have lost MINE, you haven't ... one of the things I admire about "X-Police" is the dealing with reality. Black and white don't exist except on the outide of the car. You're been there, YOU know the reality - GRAY is the color of the lawgivers *and* the MTA. :)
And I *also* know (since I've always gotten along FAMOUSLY with the footsoldiers wherever I've lived) that what may APPEAR to be reality ain't necessarily is. Heh.
As I *tried* to explain in another message, I *SINCERELY* apologize for my state of mind lately - I've always been a pacifist at heart - once everyone in the room's got a BULLET in them, you've never SEEN such a peaceful scene. Heh. Just kidding ... but YOU know the value of the chuckle. So MANY problems in the world have a 23 cent solution, if only it was legal and ethical. :)
That said, one of the things that *REALLY* makes me CRAZY here is that I'm a REAL "conservative" which means simply that people should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want, SO LONG AS THEY DON'T HARM OTHERS in the pursuits of their joys. I also believe that people should be responsible for the outcome of their choices, just as I take responsibility HERE for my own sad realities lately. But then again, Democraps BELIEVE in the internet's potential like WE do, and the republicans are busy defeinding the SPAMMERS. Gotta love it. :)
But no, Chris REALLY needs some counseling ... or viagra - after all, when BUBBA got some, the repubs went APESHEEET because nobody wanted to blow THEM ... hell, even 1689 gets routine joeblobs - HELL, you've been there and SEEN 1689 go "ahhhhhhh". Heh.
But yeah, *I* came to Branford for the Arnine as well - then Dougie, Nancy and a few others went for lunch that day and Dougie got to run a streetcar while we held his soda and whatever ... FELL IN LOVE with the streetcar we rode, got a kick out of others. While the festivities went on, realized that Unca Sparky REALLY needed an attendant at one of the hand-throw switches that day we last saw each other, so I hung out there when not riding or operating 1689 just to make Unca Sparky's yard limits switching a bit easier by BEING there.
Funny thing about living upstate - we're not afraid of rain. If it's rainign, you get WET. So? But yeah, for someone who BARELY knew what streetcars were, I got me a new mojo working. :)
Suddenly, AFTER Branford, STREETCARS are KEWL!!!
TARS was a member of the ERPCC, but didn't have the $$$ to buy them, so they built and bought cars that had the "PCC feel" with standard control packages.
629 is an example of TARS 65th Street Shop magic and one of my favorite cars (outside of some wide-gauge beauties of my acquaintance)
and absolute fun to operate, especially if you know all the tricks.
Personally although I do like 629, it's not my favorite car to operate. As a subway fan I like the brake valve in my right hand instead of the foot brake and I sometimes get confused on its door operation. I'm always afraid I'm going to close the door on someone. Also, if you're not careful you can lock yourself out and the only way to get back is is to drain the tank. Another thing is that the dead man's thingy on the brake is very sensitive and it often loses power. However I still like it once in a while. Now 4573, that's a streetcar!!
By the way, are you related to Ken Lawrence who dispatched last Sunday at Branford?
Lawrence is a pretty common surname, but there's no Ken in our clan. (My paternal grandfather was right off the boat from Ireland, as was my paternal grandmother. They hit the US on different boats, 7 years apart, and both settled in Baltimore, where they met in 1889.) I however did dispatch today (and tomorrow) at BSM, the land of hand-braked streetcars.
Amen to that. It IS my absolute favorite car, and the reason I am a member of Branford. Besides its delightful personality, it also has a very personal connection. As you know, that car was one of twenty in dedicated service on the 59th Street Crosstown line from 1939 to 1946. My grandfather (who died when I was five) commuted on that line until December of 1940 and would have ridden that car and its siblings when it was in regular service; running that car for the public and telling that story as part of my "won't you join the museum" speech is my way of honoring his memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my vest pocket or uniform pants watch pocket is my father's Illinois Bunn Special that he bought in 1922 when he was a motorman for the United Railways. He died in July, 1969 and BSM began public operation in July, 1970. He never got to ride on car his son operated, but that watch helps me to honor him. I'm thankful he never gave it away in the years between the United and now.
The ND legislature kinda screwed the nursing profession out here, but I am on a Board of Nursing committee that has to re-write the regulations to make them comply with the new laws.
As some background, we had eliminated the 2 year RN program, and required that every RN have a 4 year degree.
The legislature, citing some garbage about a nursing shortage (ND has the HIGHEST per capita ratio of nurses to population or to patients...)
Anyway... among the new regulations, 2 year RNs will not be classified with the professionals, and will be inelligible to hold a position that does not pay overtime.
Elias
Those numbers sound like the ones the Bush administration was putting forth...right under the stats about the Iraqi weapons o mass destruction.
A better statistic would be percentage of workers regularly taking advantage of overtime that is now loosing it. Or how many BILLIONS of dollars will now be diverted into the pockets of the top %5 income bracket with the new regs. That's all W cares about.
It gets worse. The TA can (and has) make workers work up to 16 hours, and is only required to give 8 hours between tours. I experienced this yesturday. While not 16 hours, I worked 11, got 8 hours before my next report. Coming home from the Bronx with GOs and all took 3 hours, and 2 with the A line GO to get to my reporting location today (and I was extra board). Fortunately I am not on the road. However, if I found out the T/O of my train worked long hours, no rest and was on a second day of long hours, I'd be off that train!!
-Robert King
The law will affect approx 700,000 mostly white collar workers. Cops, firefighters and those who have collectively bargained are exempt. That includes every single civil service employee in this city.
For folks like myself, who spent 40 years of my life reading "bills" for journalism learned back in the 60's that a "bill" has nothing but the FINEST crafted sausage content. All glad-handing and everybody ¢ums WITHOUT getting impeached! It's the "legislative intent" paperwork and MEMOS that the SUPREME COURT uses to determine what the bill REALLY means ...
It's a FINELY crafted sausage ... and about as accurate reading the handicap sheets at the race track handed out by individuals in the parking lot that will give you "better odds than inside" ... or of course, Paturkey's CURRENT NYRA Board ... gotta love it - used to be a happy, "we're all in this together" ITALIAN thing ... today, Paturkey's head of the SERBIAN mob ... those Brooklyn gas tax boys. Ah, well ... some folks are republicans, and they'll eat whatever's put on their shrimp boat. Arsenic, yum. :(
Words cannot describe how much I *Loathe* you republican chits. YOU killed my FRIENDS with your BS taxcuts that didn't put a DIME in MY pocket. Hope you're happy with the 3000+ you republicans KILLED. And then screwed their FAMILIES. Ditto. :)
8 years of Clintonian ineptitude and Clintonian corporate greed. Enron, Imclone, the whole tech-wreck, it was totally his administration's fault. Fault Bush for not doing more to help clean up the mess. Besides, unemployment is actually decreasing.
And to t hink, my own retirement fund was in K-MART ... at least ENRON is paying 14 cents to the dollar, K-MART will be paying NOTHING. Ah well, it's just $130,000 worth of stock, as of their last trade. Now it's worth NOTHING. But hey, for the republicans, ENRON'S paying off from the US Treasury. Pity Martha Stewart hadn't greased the wheels, at least I could afford a SKIRT if she had. :)
Yep, every post makes me all the PROUDER to be a republican. NOT! (and I really WAS a republican!)
We really DO need to end this - for myself, I'm sorry I don't have much to contribute - got my first handle time at the age of eight on an R10 with a motorman who was my close friend's DAD and worked 207-Lefferts on Saturdays and loved when HIS son would come to hang out with pops. On the return trip (Paul had MORE than enough "handle time" from dad and found it BORING!) I got to run an A train from 181 to just shy of 207 (dad HAD to take over each time before passing the tower) ... DELIGHTFUL! Sorry, I *genuinely* respect Dave's HOME here and feel guilty as all hell EVERY time I'm prompted by the chit of others to get SERIOUSLY worked up and feel the need to break out my baseball bat (normally reserved for the script kiddies, worm makers and "crackers of innocent people's systems) ...
IN my REAL life, I'm like a COP - MY job is to accept issues from customers, track down the perpetrator and issue a SOLUTION that works, go "undercover" as a 13 year old and FIND worms, nasties and backdoors *BEFORE* they're "news" (often WEEKS before a "CNN warns of new worm" alert) and DEAL with them. When someone who buys our software runs into unusual problems (nor caused by US), I have to take emails and help them figure out and SOLVE the REAL problem they've run into, and dozens of other ugly realities ...
WHAT I'M SAYING HERE IS ... *PLEASE* forgive me for my negativity here and there - with what *I* do for a living, I am immersed from the moment I wake up until the moment I crash (I've been awake since Thursday morning and am STILL working right now - I'm ONLY on subtalk when I'm on the job!) in EXTREME negativity at ALL times. The only time most people email me is when something ain't happy and somehow it's MY fault ... being 53 years old myself, my OWN reality is mighty simple.
If someone gives me money ($4.00 per copy) then I am HONOR-BOUND to *EARN* that $4.00 should someone have a problem - it's a sacred BOND of MY generation that you don't blow off people who are unhappy. With so many websites, software vendors, MICROSOFT and others who SCWOO their customers, I usually have some pretty NASTY attitude in my face from the moment I fall out of bed until I collapse back into it.
Such is *MY* life - 100% negativity 100% of my life ...
I say this only in hopes that folks understand why I'm so damned pschizo ... my OWN life SUCKS, but since folks have bought the software I've written, I'm *OBLIGATED* by my own moral values to take the time to sol.ve problems, even if I didn't cause them. THAT is mighty expensive, emotionally and spiritually and why I've been so cranky. Support is provided to the nth whether or not we're making money. "If someone gives us money, the LEAST we can do is EARN it" is the motto here, and sometimes, it takes its toll.
Sorry for throwing this in here, but I felt, given my erratic behavior lately everyone deserved an explanation as to WHY ...
I *wish* we had an economy so we could bring back the 9,999 employees we once had here (addording to the NYS Labor Department, yet ANOTHER story of screwage I haven't told) ... I sure could use a DAY OFF. Alas, I don't EVER get a day of - I had ONE on Christmas of 2001 and another which was documented at Branford ... but other than THOSE two days, that was IT. Folks who get a day off can take a sanity break, I ain't had ONE in nearly a year owing to the Shrub economy and damned few buying our stuff so we can hire some folks back so I can have a DAY off ...
My apologies for anyone I've pythed off lately, but MY life TRULY sucks lately. And I've been demanded to pay more taxes than my damned annual INCOME. I am *SO* screwed! :(
And THAT statement is the result of me being stupid and mentioning my realites HERE ... the "foreign government 1" said "we wish we could help, but the publicity would cause us problems with the Bush Administration as a result of your political standing with the administration. YOU came up SPECIFICALLY." ...
OK, I'm SCREWED. PROUD to *NOT* be a republican, but it may have cost me my own futre at the age of 53 ... Sieg Bush.
You filled it with disinformation.
You can't cry when others point that out.
Besides the minimum salary that they just changed after decades, the law also requires that the jobs have certain specific Tasks and are not just a TITLE.
For example, a MANAGER must review employees, hire and fire, and do other duties that a Manager would do. A title is not enough.
Slavery??? Oh please! This law dates from 1933/4 (and also enacted the Minimum Wage). The minimum salary was totally out of date - what Manager would earn less than $8,100?? It was a totally useless distinction when I complained in 1982.
South to North:
9320
9314
9763
9762
2105
9325
And here's a photo (I also have video):
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Uhh... Where's the more?.
(nevermind.)
(10:59:11 PM) You have just entered room "SubChat."
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:18 PM): whoa
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:23 PM): do i have a story to tell you
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:34 PM): go ahead,we're all ears
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:39 PM): errr...all eyes
dgreenberger74 (10:59:41 PM): brian!!!
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:50 PM): did Kopl;-D post about me?
dgreenberger74 (10:59:51 PM): we were all worried!
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:53 PM): we're all cyclops i think
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:15 PM): the short story is
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:26 PM): i was at Queensboro Plaza
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:30 PM): about to leave
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:44 PM): saw 4 R-33 singles and an R-62A heading manhattan bound
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:47 PM): got a video of it
dgreenberger74 (11:01:03 PM): cool
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:20 PM): then ran like hell to the elevaotor, down 4 stories, over to the station (i was on top of the parking garage)
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:33 PM): thought for a minute
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:35 PM): then got on a 7
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:22 PM): i was sure they didn't switch to the BMT (probably can't) so i was wondering where the ycould be going on the 7, then i realized they had to go past QBPlaza to switch to the NB tracks to then get over on the BMT
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:46 PM): so anyhow i got to times square, went over to the BMT platform
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:58 PM): and sure enough about 4 minutes a 2 trains alter, here it comes
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:02 PM): i got photos of it on the way in
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:09 PM): then it pulled up and stopped
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:15 PM): so i ran down and got some photos
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:04 PM): so then i tried to think how it would get to 207
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:31 PM): lomng story short i ended up at 181 on the IND, was there for 2 hours,, and nothing showed up
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:36 PM): so now i'm back
dgreenberger74 (11:04:49 PM): probably went down to coney
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:04 PM): so hopefully the good news is that they're not being scrapped
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:08 PM): reefed
CHAOSxBC (11:05:14 PM): get any car #s for the r33 singles?
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:23 PM): you bet i did, got em all on video
But why would R-62A's be going to 207th to begin with? I'm not convinced these cars were off to be reefed at all.
But from what I've been reading here, I think it's a little less likely they'll be reefed (for now).
What's your point? I was waiting at 181 St IND for the train to come by. I was hoping it would short turn at Pacific and use the ol' KK connector to get onto the IND. If it went all the way to Coney Island then 2 hours may not have been enough time for it to get back up to 181 St.
And, again, why do you assume it was going to 207th? There was one R-62A in the middle. Was it going to be reefed? If not, it would need to get back home somehow, and it would need to be sandwiched by a pair of R-33 singles to do that. So of the five Redbirds in the consist, only three could be reefed.
All of the above??
Yes. The mistake of not raising the fare in 2001.
But your answer to your co-workers is that the fare hike is needed espcially if you insist on having unnneeded token booths and don't insist on the MTA to modernize it's practices and get rid of dead wood
The judge can not order a fare rollback as the MTA and the MTA only have the right to set it's fare
The strapahngers campaigns press statements are very misleading
as for a fare rollback. The fare should have been hiked in 2001. Don't count on it being rolled backed
Many riders including myself still pay less then we were paying in 1990.
Which end of the mezzaine are you meeting at?
8-) ~ Sparky
Are retired folk eligible to participate? Or other's who have
the time? >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-Change thje title of the tread to "An Upcoming Teenage Subway Trip".
I think you have that backwards >GG
Have fun while I will be looking at the view of the Hudson River and Jersey from my office window while you go to the Bronx and Flushing.
Who (WHAT) da feck do we look for??
Where is the ride going to??
Brahs like details...
You mean by the newsstand place thingie?
Or by the lit Subway Map in the Mezzanine..
Or by the stairway at the walkway leading TO the 456 from the shuttle?
::sigh::
Jimmy
So what about you? What is the number one must-ride on your list?
Mark
:-)
At "http://www.et420-online.de/" you can see pictures of the 420.
In North America, the new Sheppard line in Toronto.
In the US in particular, the various Colorado narrow gauge lines, and Pike's Peak Cog Railway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, MNRR ACMUs are EASY to find if you know where to look! The heart of the PM rush hour, leaving GCT from about 4:30-6:30PM, is ACMU prime time. You're almost guaranteed on the following 'Zone' type trains: The Hudson Line trains that run GCT to Tarrytown express and then all stops to Croton-Harmon. Harlem Line GCT to Crestwood express then all stops to North White Plains. The Bronx locals don't usually get ACMUs AFAIK. I think Metro-North prefers the M-series because of their automatic doors. Also, most afternoon rush hour MU trains turn at their final terminal and deadhead back to GCT for another trip. The ACMUs seldom do that. They seem to be assigned to trains that don't turn but instead tie up.
John
Otherwise:
—Adelaide to Alice Springs
—Some of the TGV routes in France (Paris-Lyons?)
—The Talgos in Spain
—The narrow gauge railways in Cantabria (Spain)
—North Yorks moors railway
What I have enjoyed:
—The Trans Australia Express from Adelaide to Perth (should have been Sydney to Perth, but some of the line was washed out at Broken Hill
—The Orient Express: Singapore to Bangkok
—Eurostar
—The Cog railway from Diakofto to Kalavrita (Peloponese, Greece)
What I would like to have enjoyed:
—Coastal route from Saltburn (where I grew up) to Whitby
—Coastal route from Whitby to Scarborough
…both victims of the good Dr Beeching.
Both the Times & Newsday have done something about the Queensboro Bridge trolley and NEITHER mentioned that Queens Surface did that service & still does :-(
It's still a bus. No streetcars since 1957.
The news only report the juicy stuff, like back during that bus strike.
100,000 happy folks a day isn't enough for them to write about :-(
So... Queens Surface(the green striped buses, right???) was origianlly trolleys and then simply converted to buses. How's about a reconvertion. It'd be great to see trolleys again. Hell, maybe one day williamsburgh bridge trolley terminal will be re-opened
NO, Green Lines is the one with the green stripes ;-). I think trolleys will not see a comback [would be nice though] but as you said, if Essex St on the J/M/Z had theirs re-established it would make the station look far better.
I know There may be one trolley line goin up in greenwhich village. the VCTC wants a line runnin the length of Houston St...That's the only project for now that may be done, after Bob Diamonds project...(sigh).
B No trains at Bedford Pk Blvd and Kingsbridge Rd
D Makes all local stops in the Bronx
All Times, 5 AM Mon, Jul 21 to 5 AM Mon, Aug 25
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
And concourse is both orange and mostly useless (well, I've never passed or even caught up to a B while on it). So I worry.
Hey, if expresses never catch up to the locals, why can't they just run them express both ways? Off-peak direction on the local, and could stop at 167th. Hell they could run them express during this GO!
Frank Hicks
I assume the museum is still closed due to its insurance problems or you would've got the answers from them. I took my son there a few weeks ago after the Riverhead Aquarium and it was closed. Although it was disappointing we did spend some time walking among the cars. Some posters in other forums say it might reopen soon, anyone know? And is the one in Greenpoint Greenport also closed?
The LIRR had double-decker M.U.'s at one point? I thought all the double-decker cars were trailers.
*I know some of you do not like people calling it the Babylon Line, you'd rather we call it the Montalk Line. To all of you I have one work:TOUGH
Frank Hicks
The report
The report is quite long and detailed but in essence says that the derailment was caused by faulty gearbox bearings causing a lot of mechanical stress to the inadequate motor mounting bolts, and the safety bracket not being anything like as strong as it needed to be to catch and hold the detached motor.
The report goes on to list a number of things that should be done differently in the future to avoid this type of problem again, and to modify the procedures for handling the aftermath of such an incident.
This quote from section 8 caught my eye;
"Several customers reported that they had heard unusual noises coming from the train prior to the derailment. Many commented that they did not report this to staff as they believed they would either not be believed, would face a possible fine if they used the Emergency Alarm or cause extended delays for themselves or other customers."
I think that says a lot about how London Underground's customers perceive their customer service.
Andrew.
Peace,
ANDEE
(North) 9325, 1716-20, 2111, 2049, 2120, 2110, 2107, 2040 (South)
So 9325 apparently just went down to "pick up" an 11-car R62A consist (likely from CIY).
While on the Flushing local, going towards Times Square, I also saw a 33WF coupled to an 11-car trainset of R62As (going in the opposite direction), but I couldn't get any numbers.
It looks like the R33WFs are already starting their new "lives" so to speak as work motors.
My psychic abilities work for me again. ;)
I spotted it at 63rd/Lex (F train) heading Queens-bound, approx 12:30 PM. A few minutes after you did.
If it was going to Coney Island...it must have gotten there either really fast or just happened to go there for MINOR maintenance...
I guess I'll never know where that train was headed.
The Amtrak pictures were pretty stale. Amtrak is huge and there's no way we could cover it in any detail. I bet there's plenty of other web sites doing a better job with Amtrak coverage. You can still find some Amtrak photos in the NJT, MNRR, and SEPTA sections from shared trackage particularly the Northeast Corridor.
I hate when people do that.
Take a closer look at the 5 line service advisory page on their web site.
You are correct as usual Mr. Greenberger.
Look at this and see
Want another reason to go DUH to NYCT? Check out this J line PDF for shuttle buses between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills
Hint: This might be a Bustalk issue, look closely. You will see why NYCT has no coordination between subways and buses.
This time you appear to be incorrect. The M is extended to Chambers next weekend specifically to accomodate displaced L passengers? (But why not Broad, so they can get to the A/C/2/3 at Fulton?)
Because they have something against the M ever terminating at Broad St. With he L GO, the L looses it's connection to both 8th Ave and 7th Ave lines, so why do the displaced L passengers (now M passengers for the GO) have to miss out on the Fulton transfer.....maybe because M (J weekend riders) riders will really realize what they are missing on weekends (and in the future for the midday M), and will actually realize it's dumb to use Chambers as a terminal?
late nights local
B Lefferts Blvd Queens - 168th Street Manhattan 6th Av Express 8th Av(CPW)local
Late Nights Lefferts Shuttle, from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd
C - Coney Island Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street Bronx West End Express, 8th Avenue local, CPW(8th Avenue) local, Concourse local
Late Nights shuttle from CI - 36th Street Brooklyn
D Coney Island - 205th Street, Brighton Local in Brooklyn, Express and Manhattan and the Bronx(peak)
outside rush hours
Q - Brighton Beach Brooklyn - 57th Street (125th Street once SAS is built) Manhattan
T - Second Avenue line Hanover Square Manhattan 125th Street Crosstown- 205th Street Bronx Express in Bronx all times except nights and weekends(possible weekend express on some weekends)
this will spread out the services in Brooklyn and Queens
B Lefferts Blvd Queens - 168th Street Manhattan 6th Av Express 8th Av(CPW)local
Late Nights Lefferts Shuttle, from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd
C - Coney Island Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street Bronx West End Express, 8th Avenue local, CPW(8th Avenue) local, Concourse local
Late Nights shuttle from CI - 36th Street Brooklyn
D Coney Island - 205th Street, Brighton Local in Brooklyn, Express and Manhattan and the Bronx(peak)
outside rush hours
Q - Brighton Beach Brooklyn - 57th Street (125th Street once SAS is built) Manhattan
T - Second Avenue line Hanover Square Manhattan 125th Street Crosstown- 205th Street Bronx Express in Bronx all times except nights and weekends(possible weekend express on some weekends)
this will spread out the services in Brooklyn and Queens
Btw, I saw FL9M #2024 again past Wilton station (IIRC) carrying a few blue-striped Shoreliners with trailing cab #6310. Nice to see running. Our train was to South Norwalk with Genesis #226 pushing our two CDOT Shoreliners with cab #6221.
Jimmy
"The American Pig"
"The Chapter 11 Choo Choo"
"The Jersey Mike"
"The The Big Bad"
Hey, it beats those dinky little red zip-strips at the ends.
Jimmy
Also, I believe the names were placed by donations from families and historical societies.
Jimmy
Mark
It's a range of hills about ten miles north of New Haven that indeed looks a lot like a sleeping giant. It's a state park with some terrific hiking trails. If I recall correctly - I haven't been there in almost ten years, back in my pre-railfan days - there's an old railroad ROW passing along one side of the hills.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Then you are not authorized to operate on that track.
That is part of knowing your track.
You must know where and of what kind, every single switch and aspect means before you can operate on that line.
And what it means depends of on the physical track layout, the nature of the diverging route, the nature of the through route.
We got a switch stand (well several of them actually) in town, only the main line switch is locked, the side tracks are not.
Interesting but even the mainline tracks coming into Dickinson are not locked, it is presuemed that every train will stop and adjust its own switches before entering the station. I suspect the track warrant will tell the crew which track to bring their train in on, but the position of the switches will be random depending on who used them last.
As to the issue on MN, clearly they are using a track that is not in normal passenger service, probably related to a switch rebuild somewhere.
Elias
Note that the canopy itself is the big swoopy shiny silver steel pieces, the lower squared off metal railing and decking is just the temporary construction scaffolding.
Also, the picture quality isn't super because this wasn't taken with a "real" camera, but instead just a quick snap with the built-in camera on my Nokia 3650 cell phone.
Finally, for a real bit of WMATA trivia, can you spot what's wrong with this picture?
How's it pronounced, BTW?
Some of the ad panels at Broadway (IND Crosstown) have been tiled over. The ad panels by the north end (where the South 4 St exits were) have been tiled over with white tiles, and a border of light green tiles has been added also.
Looks better than the black or yellow paint.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But the retiling on Queens Blvd IND local stations is VERY noticable, as the new white tile almost appears to have a glow compared with its pre- WWII tile counterparts.
Jimmy
Now, can someone please reveal why these R-62As keep showing up on Queens Blvd? Only thing I can think of is they wanted to see the other end of Flushing Meadow Park....
David
Chaohwa
Well anyway that was more last week, cause this week they all seemed to be pretty much of the same lustre. Probably because they decided to use Jamaica's wash...
As for the purple stripes, they've been there since the first set of 62As appeared last summer. Corona sticks them on usually a week or two after they get a new set of cars.
So to recap what I was trying to say: Corona's car wash being out of service explains why all the cars with purple stickers, most of which have been under corona's control for over two months, are very dingy. The cars with blue stickers are shinier, since they just came from Livonia (which has a car wash), which is indicated by their still wearing their old stickers.
Jimmy
None taken. The Repiglicans and the Demhogcrats are the two major parties serving in the House of Repigsentatives and Swinate of the United Swines of America. The Pigsident appoints justices to the Sowpreme Court.
If NYCT's fees are so high that these companies go to other cities, NYCT should reconsider. Think of the money lost by going to other cities as opposed to accepting lower fees.
It's possible that the subway scene is being filmed in Los Angeles not because of NYCT's fees, but because most of the movie's cast and crew members live there.
Los Angeles rail lines shut down for a good number of hours nightly, so they can get filming done then.
NYC does have a film office which works with the studios.
And virtually impossible to make a Los Angeles subway car, station or portion of track look even a little like its New York counterpart. I suspect the filming is limited to street scenes with the subway background to suggest New York.
Tom
Location filming is expensive. If most of a movie can be filmed in a studio, with just a few scenes having a New York location (e.g. subway scenes), it's probably much cheaper to do all the work in Los Angeles with an "imitation" New York setting.
Look at "The Italian Job". The actors head down the stairs into the subway from in front of the Chinese Theater in Hollywood -- yet when they get down to the tracks, it's Blue Line trains!!
I noticed that yesterday also. And to go with my earlier observation that the signs were for shooting above ground rather than subway sequences, I noted that there are cables for movie lights run in the gutters along both sides of 7th Street for five blocks, and no parking from 6pm-6am signs in the same area.
Tom
On the #7 R62A trains, we get the worst of both worlds: transverse cabs that are not used by the conductors! All the disadvantages without the advantage.
The #7 R62A trains are configured with a five-car linked set on the east (Flushing-bound) end, and six singles on the west (Manhattan-bound) end. The five-car sets have transverse cabs permanently set up at each end; the train operator uses the east one on Flushing-bound trains, but the conductor never uses the other one, since on the Flushing line, the standard conductor position is between the sixth and seventh cars (counting east to west), and the transverse cab is always at the end between the fifth and sixth cars.
However, each station platform on the line has an "Alternate Position" conductor board (yellow with red stripes instead of white with black stripes) mounted between the fifth and sixth cars. Conductors would use this alternate position on the redbirds if, for example, there was a malfunction at the standard position.
Why can't the conductors on the R62A's use this alternate position in the transverse cabs? If we have to have them, let's at least use them.
This year, some people are lead to believe that it won't happen since a big amount of R62A's already occupy the 7's fleet, therefore making the shortchanging unnecessary. Anyway, we'll see what happens.
Jimmy
The Standards had the conductor's controls on the centers in each car, accessible to the public, and there never were any problems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nowadays given the chance vandals would wreck those controls.
Peace,
ANDEE
and 4-car consists on the GCS.
You mean one 4 car consist running on track 3. The other tracks could not handle 4 cars because of the shorter platforms at Times Square.
Actually I think those Alternate boards are for 10 car trains. The TA rarely authorizes position changes unless its to the opposite transverse cab.
Anyone else have a better theory? Or the actual reason?
Why can a non-MTA-person run for 3 hours a train and nobody
knows it. If i have to drive a train and it doesn't come
i call a tower man, who knows where the train is.
Strange, if it has departed without me....
or don't they have static plans, where stands, which trains
the have to drive on work?
No, I wasn't operating, but I was there playing TSS telling OTHER kids how far to pull the SMEE. Back in the mid-60's, the IRT cars ALL worked JUST like an R10 ... in EVERY WAY except they did everything "faster" than the Arnines and LoV's I'd gotten to know before our little escapade. :)
It WAS in the newspapers back in 64/66 somewhere when I was at DeWitt Clinton HS at the time ... be a hoot if anyone can find reference to it, *I* couldn't. :(
But we found the "doctor's bag" on the platform, crew key open, dewd "up the stairs with the TMO" so we just snatched, grabbed, key closed. *I* was the one who walked back to car 6 to perform the rituals of the hot and cold water faucets ... "NEXT STOP, HELL!"
But it's OUT there, Van Courtlandt train theft, Saturday morning at I THINK around 9AM, cops unmder the el in radio cars, which is *WHY* we ditched north of 191 and just LEFT it there. Chow. :)
If anyone can find it in print (SWEAR it was real, but I wasn't paying real attention to date and time [train! Train! TRAIN! ***TRAIN***!!!!]) ... some of you might now understand *WHY* Selkirk hadta have soem TA on his social security folio ... heh. While I was one of the perps, wasn't ME that *ran* the purloined R17-22-whatever. I just made sure nobody could escape or walk out into thin air should we stop. However, I had *NO* religious affiliations with that crappy plywood on the angle metal hanging off the ceiling.
Alas, I worked Arnies. From up as HIGH as we stood to reach under and pull the *GUN* triggers below, you could SEE your motorman up front, and you could SEE your tail car no matter *HOW* curved the platform was... why? You could see OVER the damned celestory if you HAD to ... such was "assuming the position" ...
SERIOUSLY! (ON topic for the last few lines) ... it can be attributed back to Groucho Marx, but this is Unca Selkirk's DEMAND for that tombstone when my time comes (HOPEFULLY enough LIVING people to get involved, these ARE "we all gonna die" 1960's times, WITHOUT everybody being GUARANTEED to squirt. : )
I better go home, I'm fricken toast. Doing 24 hours with 12 hours' sleep to cycle works a few times a week ... been up for 30 hours. fall ocerm please don't anybody be offended if it takes me 12-16 hours of sleepytime before I remember what a smellchecker is. :)
I'd looooooove to find this on microfiche at a college library or
something which has papers dating back that far... It's a MOOving read.
You have to go to the 5th Avenue Library though.
If I were only a little younger, I would take that as a challenge. :-)
Tom
Shame on whoever was in charge of security, or was the Chief of the Transit Bureau at that point for letting it happen. More power to the people who are preventing it now.
Anyway, we came to a halt and the E/R called ZOO and mentioned that we were an R7. So the signal was knocked down and we had to wait the 4:30 of the timer to run. Finally, ZOO was able to display 64R again and we proceeded on a Slow Approach down the (in)famous K ladder. Back in the day the K ladder was a string of 3 turnouts and 4 double-slip switches that led from the #3 track out of BROAD to the Belmont connection with the Reading, connecting the 36th St Connector and the Hi-Line in between. Today, the hi-line connection is gone, but the K-ladder is still there however not used as much as the other tracks, so, on this gray and rainy day we sent off on an off road trip into rustville (pictures to come later). After weaving through some old freight yards we pulled directly in front of ZOO tower (the Engineer refrained from giving them the finger) and were spit out directly onto the center of the NEC (no longer under ZOO's control). Just before exiting no-mans land we passed a Wye movement (P42/40 being Wyed on the NY-Pittsburg Subway in preperation of an outbound train). Anyway, the delay wasn't all that bad, the NJT connection at Trent-town wasn't missed and a certain railfan got a very cool/exciting trip on a portion of rare/historic trackage.
I can't really blame the E/R' for not noticing the former 13R exit signal was not at APPROACH MEDIUM as the K-ladder is a valid routing and that would have resulted in the 32R displaying an APPROACH SLOW with the former 13R still at clear.
Here are some visual aides. Our little off-road trip started at 64R and ended at what used to be 192R. Keep in mind they are a little out of date and the section between the 73 turnout and 114R has been mostly straight railed.
Jimmy
Also, where do the tracks indentified as the 36th street originate from on the south end?
I find the Philly-area interlockings to be fascinating, but am trying to get my bearings.
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/broad.gif"
and
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/zoo.gif
AEM7
AEM7
Mark
Very touristy and Californian.
I would have try to link the System Advisories but I don't know how to, Sorry.
Robert
Heh... I was expecting something about Atlantic Avenue ;^)
Robert
Speaking of subway shuttles, other than the Queens Boulevard shuttle, have ATU and TWU garages combined for a subway GO bus service? (The 2 train shuttle buses were covered by TWU depots only.)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
They also did this back in 2000-2001 and it was a BIG operation but there were no express shuttles. In the operation back in the early 1990's did they run have express shuttles? I wish I was able to ride a GM New Look on a shuttle bus but I was too youg to travel by myself on the subways.
Speaking of subway shuttles, other than the Queens Boulevard shuttle, have ATU and TWU garages combined for a subway GO bus service? (The 2 train shuttle buses were covered by TWU depots only.)
It seems so b/c on the 2 back on March 2/3, there were buses from all over except Staten Island then on the weekend of March 9/10 it was buses from Brooklyn & MaBSTOA only. I see that ATU & TWU joint operations are rarely done.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
In case you haven't been keeping track, service is still running on the old track, after many many postponements. Once the old track closes, I expect that one of the first orders of business will be to remove it and to connect the two pieces of the flyover from the new track.
Only looked on the track maps on this page.
MU's operate on both levels of GCT. Due to increased ridership it is now necessary to use the lower level on weekend whereas before it was closed on Saturday and Sunday for many years.
Locomotive-hauled trains can run on both levels but almost always us the upper level since that is where the electric hookups are for push-pull equiptment. In that way we can provide hotel services (i.e. lights, air-conditioning) while the train idles in the Terminal.
Electric MU's
ACMU, M-1A, M-3A --MTA owned
M-2,M-4,M-6 --- about half MTA owned, other half CDOT.
Push-Pull Equiptment
Shorliner I -- MTA and CDOT
Shoreliner II -- MTA
Shoreliner III -- MTA and CDOT
Center-Door (Push-pull) Equiptment
Shoreliner IV -- MTA and CDOT
Larry, RedbirdR33
on the left, M-3, 1978
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Believe it or not, 370 Jay Street is D division.
Really? According to whom? I've never seen any bulletins or notices referring to 370 Jay Street as D Division.
David
Robert
B2 is IND. B1 is BMT.
Rotting junk that should've been scrapped a decade ago.
Still beats what the SIR has now, plus they had way better seats. Hmm, maybe we could move the Metro-North ACMUs there instead...? or are the SIR conductors too lazy to work manual doors now...? :-P
Jimmy
JONN
Try these:
R-62A (when new)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6043.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24185.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24186.jpg
R-40
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5241.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5139.jpg
R-33 ML
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3842.jpg
(features a ML R33 in kale green scheme!)
JONN
Red R30 on M line, 1989
Red R30 on J line, 1988
R10 on Rockaway line, 1986
R27 at 8th Ave on L line, 9/88
R27 on C line, 1989
And this L at 8th!.....orange doors, every inch covered in grafitti...sniff...sniff...it feels like home again.
Thank goodness that era of the subway is over, but it sure brings me back to a very happy time in my life.
Image 5545 is from after they stareted cleaning up the trains. That is when the R32 to R42 got their mini-cleanups, and all got blue doors. I think those 5 classes of cars looked the best of their lives at that point. They still had some color with the dark blue doors both inside and out, the R42's still had large stormdoor windows, and the R32-38's still had front rollsigns, and they didn't yet mess up the R40's side rollsign boxes.
It sure does. Actually I think it looked better on most of the equipment, including the LIRR's M1's.
I believe the R42's are the most attractive cars in the fleet (even now), but you sure couldn't beat their looks just after the grafitti was removed to before they had the real GOH.
I've enjoyed your breath ever since 96th Street.
R44/46 look good. Nice shapely figures.
The R44 looks much more like the M1. Heck, they were designed by the same people!
The pre-44's have some nice fluting on their sidewalls, the post 44's have a couple of ridges and that's about it.
Yes, the fluting is nice on the R32. On everything else, it looks downright nasty. The R42's fluting seems as if it were an attempt at preventing a totally bland car from being built, and its sorry looking.
The recessed door is also far superior.
I strongly disagree. I find the rounded front of the 44/46 to be much nicer than anything else in the system. That inset door seems like the TA messed something up.
And the TA just might order 75' cars in the future. To replace the existing ones.
No chance of that. Passenger loading is superior on 60 foot cars; the TA does not want more cars which cannot go everywhere on the B Division.
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
:)
:)
So you'd like to sit on somebody's head? :-)
Which is it that you really want - transverse seating (facing the direction of travel or backwards thereof) or longitudinal seating (facing the sides of the car)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not on rush hour trains.
Those seats are usually the last to go, but they do go. That proves my point. Without "defining" seats, people will take up more room than they need.
LOL. 5 is the norm, and I ride the J almost daily. When I did ride it daily, it was mostly 5 people per bench. Tomorrow, look closer.
Whatever it is, I want window seats. The R1 thru R11 and R16 were all 60', yet had this seating arrangement.
Whatever it is, I want window seats. The R1 thru R11 and R16 were all 60', yet had this seating arrangement.
But the MTA now does, and has a lot of objective data to support it. The original decision proved to be a mistake. Railbuff sentiment doesn't count for much (and that's appropriate).
It's a load of crap.
Wrong. On crowded platforms ten 60 foot cars offer more entry and exit than 8 75 foot cars. This is what the MTA balanced against the promise of reduced maintenance and operating cost (8 cars vs. 10).
If you want data, write to Doug Sussman at MTA; he'll be happy to send you the stats. The Straphangers also can point you to some well-thought out analyses. If you're interested enough, you can read the material for yourself.
"75' cars have dominated the Queens Blvd IND, the most heavily used B division route in the system."
75' cars are not able to operate on many BMT routes (such as the Jamaica Line) so the places MTA can use them include IND lines in Queens and the Bronx. They were mainly intended for the SAS, not built yet.
You have it backward. They don't "dominate" Queens Blvd. They are on Queens Blvd. (and Bronx bound IND) because that is where MTA can run them. As the 60 foot cars begin to replace them, those cars will be more flexibly deployed throughout the system.
Four routes on Queens Blvd:
E - R32-38 (forgot which)
R - mostly R46
F - R46
V - 100% R46
G - R46 (weekends)
...sounds like domintation to me.
Trucks "dominate" the LIE not because they're so great compared to cars. It's because the government doesn't allow them to run on any other highway in the area.
I like riding the 75' cars - but I understand why there will be no more of them.
I guess I unserstand what you are trying to say, but there are only three lines they can't run them on, the J, M, and L. Every other line can use them. When they order the new R160's, the same problem will still exist. Some of the R160's will be in 5 car sets, and the others will be in 4 car sets. The ones in 4 car sets will be for the Eastern Division, but the ones in 5 car sets will be just as inflexible as the 75 foot cars are now, as they will not be able to run in serive on the same 3 lines, the J, M, and L.
Now here's how I would do it:
Have A-B-B-A sets and "A" singles.
Franklin S: A|A|A
G: A|A-B-B-A|A or A|A|A|A|A|A
C,J,L,M,Z: A-B-B-A|A-B-B-A or A|A|A|A|A|A|A|A (try to avoid too many of the latter)
A,B,D,E,F,N,Q,R,Rock Pk S,V,W: A-B-B-A|A|A|A-B-B-A or A|A-B-B-A|A-B-B-A|A [10-car train of all singles is not really cost-effective]
David
Personally, I think that the cost benefit heavily outweighs the loading perspective. It's 4 less trucks per train. Those 4 trucks alone save a lot of money, not counting parts loaded in the carbodies. It is truly a shame that the MTA is not considering replacing at least SOME of the 75' cars with 75' cars OR articulated units similar to the BMT D-types. But I think they are making the decision with the best intentions in mind.
We're arguing 2 different points here. You're arguing the 32 door vs. 40 door thing. I'm arguing that that "thing" doesn't affect service in any detrimental way.
You have it backward. They don't "dominate" Queens Blvd. They are on Queens Blvd. (and Bronx bound IND) because that is where MTA can run them. As the 60 foot cars begin to replace them, those cars will be more flexibly deployed throughout the system.
There are 650ish R46's assigned to Queens Blvd. There are less than 380 R32's. There are plenty of existing 60' cars in the fleet to equip Queens Blvd completely, if the TA wanted to. You'd think that the most heavily used B division line would want to take every opportunity to quicken service. Yet 27 years later, the 75' cars are still there, and are going nowhere.
Like I said, it's total crap.
Which single yard could take those 650ish R-46's and replace with with 810ish 60-foot cars? It's convenient to keep all the R-46's together, and Jamaica is where they fit.
The Queens Boulevard local is perfectly adequately served by 75-foot cars. The express is now dominated by 60-foot cars. Except for the R-32's that float over to the R for whatever reason, every local based out of Jamaica uses R-46's, leaving as many R-32's as possible for the crowded expresses.
How about Coney Island? They can also thrown in the R68/A's if neccessary, and put them only on the R and V lines. The E, F, and G would have R40/M cars, and the N,Q (local and diamond),W would have R-46, with some R-32's on the Q diamond. What do you think? (Also sounds real sweet from a railfan's point of view, imagine R-40 slants on the Crosstown and the Culver! I really really wish they would do that.)
Actually, wrong. Not counting the newly arrived R143's, putting a lot of 60 foot cars on Queens Blvd. would have created shortages elsewhere, in places where the 75 foot cars can't go.
"We're arguing 2 different points here. You're arguing the 32 door vs. 40 door thing. I'm arguing that that "thing" doesn't affect service in any detrimental way."
But it does. The fact that you haven't bothered to look it up before you posted doesn't change that. Write MTA, read their reply, and then we'll talk.
I agree. This should really be the standard we use to judge the cars. There are more doors on the 60' cars but how valid is the Spanish galleon argument (galleons, the larger ship, were constructed because it was cheaper to build one very large ship than two smaller ones)?
This still takes too narrow a view though. We could also consider articulated cars and really should to be proper. For all of our technologcal prowess and modern niceties there are features which even, say, the BMT D-types beat. For example, in terms of seating efficiency our R-143 cars are bested by a very old design.
Sometimes I really wonder why articulation is not considered. Or is it rejected for some reason I cant think of?
Except the LIRR's new M-7's make you realize what garbage the M-1's and M-3's really are.
The trucks are cooler looking too, even if they suck. :)
What's really assinine about the M-7s is they're 30,000 lbs heavier than the M-1/'3s, hold fewer passengers, and have a lousey interior layout. I don't care WHAT ADA and the FRA said, it's a shitty design.
Too bad Budd's not in the business, I bet they would have been able to make a lighter, yer still FRA compliant railcar, and do a better job at it. Love or hate the stainless look, Budd knew how to engineer a car with it and use stainless's advantages to make a better railcar.
The M-1s withstood the test of time, they've proven to be a safe railcar, and they've managed to not totally fall apart despite the LIRR's (non) maintenance.
What really drives me nuts is Bomardier's recent stuff is so half assed. Really, you're telling me that with the much lighter, smaller AC propulsion system, computer aided design and computer modeling, better alloys, and computer simulation, a tier I EMU has to weigh 125,000 lbs?
Efficiency gains or not with AC, it'll be fun to watch these things run 12 car sets durring the rush. I bet the MTA kicks the somewhat fast acceleration rates down to the sluggish as hell rate the M-1s have (made worse by crews refusing to let the controller do it's job and instead notching manually), to keep substations from going *pop*.
It's sad, Budd made the Silverliners come in at about 100,000 lbs, the M-1s come in 10,000 lbs less, and Bombardier can't even come close 30 years later, with today's technology and today's design capabilities...
I've read the TEL's patents, I'm not convinced the design solves any problems of prior ones.
Oddly, the TEL has truck mounted traction motors - I wonder if the Acelas do too, as it was based off the Acela design. That would be interesting, as body mounted motors are the defacto standard for HSR, AFAIK.
I don't think Bombardier is incapeable of engineering a decent product per se, its just that they don't bother with the North American market because there's so few builders who will build for the market, they inevitably get the contract by default.
Look at the ALP-46 Vs the HHP-8. They offer (effectively) identical performance, are built to identical safety regulations, yet the ALP-46 is 11 tons lighter than the HHP-8. Theoretically, if Bombardier is optimizing their designs, this shouldn't be happening.
I'd really like to know specifically what puts the M-1's body out of FRA compliance, as the M-6s are the same design and were delivered in the late 90's.
Then again, I'd like to know why the FRA is requiring the LIRR order equipment designed to withstand accident screnarios that simply won't happen on the LIRR. AFAIK, there hasn't been a serious train-train collision on the LIRR in nearly 50 years, there haven't been any passenger-freight collisions at any significant speed, and the ASC system has been proven to be safe and effective. In that light, it's perfectly valid to ask why the train cars even have to be designed to withstand collisions with heavy freights - which do not even operate on the LIRR - at high speeds - an accident of which type has been exceedingly rare on the LIRR.
Boeing used an argument like this with the FRA w.r.t ETOPS (Extended Twin OPerationS over water, or 'engines turn or passengers swim') and the 777 - there were so few instances of more than one engine shutting down in flight on jets that the long 'proving period' before ETOPS capeability was granted was really not needed.
IMHO, an LIRR MU design should be more focused on grade crossing accident safety factors, fire resistance, and derailment stability, since these are considerably more likely to happen than a train -train collision. IMHO, the M-1s have proven to do well in derailments, though I don't think the design is as fire safe or grade crossing safe as it should be. But that's no reason to discard the entire body design in favor of a new one.
I guess part of the blame should go to the FRA, who seems to think a train line is a train line is a train line. The operations and environment of the LIRR is significantly different from the rest of the US, and thus it makes sense that regulations should be ore tailored to it's unique needs, especially in the light that the equipment WON'T travel off LI anyway. Even if it did, it would roam the NEC which, once again is not the rest of the US and has it's owe unique requirements. The prescence of cab signalling and automatic controls, plus significantly higher speeds, and a different mix of freight Vs passenger make it and the LIRR (and parts of NJT and MN too) different from the rest of the US, and they should IMHO be regulated differently as such.
Agreed, I rode a few M-7's and can't wait until they take over the LIRR. The LIRR can't send the M-1's to Mexico fast enough AFAIK !
The M-3's are another story, They have a horrible stiff ride and vibrate at high speeds. Try reading a newspaper and holding it still whent he M-3's are at speed.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
We need a R32 picture, pre-GOH!
R-46: same as the R-44, except the A/C is awesome. Nice and cold.
R-68: pretty blah. nothing spectacular, but they get the job done.
Wow, you're a choice man for words, huh? I love the R68. They have that interior shines. Too bad it's prone to vandalism.
I also like the R44/46. If you look closely at the light orange wallpaper, you'll notice it has a repeating design of the New York State Emblem...I think.
David
The question is how they will age from this point forward. There seems to be a lot of brown spots on the car bodies, and the floors are showing some wear. They are going to need some significant maintenance soon, and I don't think they are scheduled for it.
If the entire R160 order goes through, the R44/R46s will be the last cars remaining from the inferior maintenance era.
If the entire R160 order goes through, the R44/R46s will be the last cars remaining from the inferior maintenance era.
Well I don't think the R160 order will replace ALL of the R32-R44 rolling stock right away but there's no way the R46 will be affected.
Well I don't think the R160 order will replace ALL of the R32-R44 rolling stock right away but there's no way the R46 will be affected.
That's what he said. If all of the R160's are purchased, then ONLY the R44/46 will be left from deferred maint.
Where can I get some melamine? I think it would be useful around the house.
Well, you could start right here... would you prefer Bob the Builder, Winnie the Pooh, or TeleTubbies? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ones from the early '50s WERE real wood bodies - not just veneer. Woodies faded in popularity for a while, although some were made with real wood veneer in the mid-'50s, along with a few with imprinted vinyl; the wood look really began its return to popularity in 1960 with Ford's heavy promotion of the Country Squire. Interestingly enough, Ford and Mercury were the only ones with wood grain styling in the early '60s; GM didn't follow suit until 1966, and both Chrysler and AMC added it at about the same time (not sure of the exact year). By 1970 nearly 40% of full-sized wagons and over 30% of mid-sized wagons were built with wood grain; this percentage fell off slightly over the next couple of years and plunged in 1973 when all the major manufacturers focused their promotional efforts elsewhere. Ford full-sized wagons actually increased their percentage with the 1973-78 body series, to over 70% one year, but they were the exception to the general rule.
I'm not sure when the last wood-grained wagon was built; probably 1996, with the last of the rear-drive full-sized GM wagons. Ford's last big one was 1991, although the Escort may have had a woody model for another year or two, and Chrysler's last station wagon period was built in 1989; they did offer wood grain on the minivan through the mid-'90s and it's currently available on the PT Cruiser (not sure what to call that thing).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then it would look like a ski lodge in there, very good for the romantic mood.
Then one would add a hot tub and open all of the windows. The air is cold, the hot tub is boiling hot. It's like SWEDEN man, SWEDEN.
All of this because they couldn't take out all the seats and poles and install levels.
Yes your correct although it looks more of a light brown color.
It has both that and the sigilum civitatis Novi Eboraci (seal of the City of New York).
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
1. The fact that you can't lie down on a subway car doesnt mean it sucks. In fact, most people look down on those who lie down on subway cars.
2. You do not want to go from one car to another on a R68 since theres the lack of safety handles.
3. The mixed seating is the reason your fellow straphander (or commuter, whatever term you use) doesn't sock you one in the kisser when you try to look out a railfan window at the height of rush hour.
4. I don't know about you but I prefer not to have a semi band-aid color as the scheme for the subway car's I'm riding.
Skells also like the E because it's entirely underground and you don't have to get off at either terminal.
I don't understand why the E can't be "fumigated" at one or both terminals. Just because the train isn't going onto a relay track does not mean that the skells have a right to remain onboard. It would make the E a much better ride for normal passengers.
The lack of that option is a not a plus is that I mean. When you had to get up early and you're blasted a nice big bench might be just what's called for.
You do not want to go from one car to another on a R68 since theres the lack of safety handles.
I know, they SHOULD have safety handles. The lack of linear egress is a design flaw.
The mixed seating is the reason your fellow straphander (or commuter, whatever term you use) doesn't sock you one in the kisser when you try to look out a railfan window at the height of rush hour.
Huh?? What?? That makes no sence? The 44/46/68's don't even have FRW's.
I don't know about you but I prefer not to have a semi band-aid color as the scheme for the subway car's I'm riding.
Yes...80's orange is OH so pleasing on the eyes. There's a reason we invented the 90's and the Units, it's because the 80's sucked.
Lying down on a train is a violation of NYCT regulations and can lead to ejection or a summons.
The current decade is called the naughties.
R44s have very small one, even smaller than that of the R62, but its there. And not smear-o-vision either.
I happen to like the interior scheme. Its better than tan, tan and more tan with blue seats, or plain metal with alternating lines of reflective/not-so-reflective.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
David
Now that's hell of a lot to be said about car classes that are anywhere between 20 to 34 years older than the "newer equipment" and at the same time be that much more reliable than the "newer equipment" save for the R68As.
As for the R44s, they are doing something with them, because I rarely deal with trains breaking down on the "A" these days. Back in the '80s, that was an every hour occurence. Even the a/c has gotten better since last year-much to my surprise.
I know, I was shocked when I rode a R44 [5296] recently and I felt cool A/C I couldn't believe it :-0! We know how bad those A/C units are.
Having been on every type of subway car currently in revenue service (and a few ones that have now been retired) with the exception of the R32GE and R40Ms, I would have to agree with Mike and say the R44, R46, R68, and R68A are some of the worst cars ever designed for the NYC subway. They are so big, they can not run on every line, they have increased dwell times, they do not provide passage from car to car (most New Yorkers seem to expect this "luxury"), and they lack railfan windows.
To me that's the best feature. The inset doors always seemed distracting to me.
Boo…:-P
I love the 75ft cars. My favorite is the R-46, and my nephew loves the R-44s. I grew up with the R-46s racing up and down Queens Blvd. Before the GOHs, the R-46s had great speed and felt way faster than the slow Brightliners. I loved passing the slower local trains from the express tracks. I love watching these beautiufl cars enter and exit subway stations. I love hearing the bing-bong of each closing door. What’s so bad about the color scheme? Sure it’s orange and beige, but I don’t think it’s ugly. The recent bonnet repainting has made the cars look sharper. They look great with or without their blue stripe. Passengers love the cars for their smooth ride and seating arrangement, and many E train riders wish for their return. I like the LCDs because they are readable and easily display route information. I know they don’t have railfan windows, but how often can you get a railfan window on commuter or passenger rail?
More often than you think. SEPTA has nearly all railfan views, LIRR/MNRR M<7 cars as well as MNRR shoreliner III's ACMU's and Shoreliner I's all have RFV's. NJT Comet IV and V's have RFV's. Metra Gallery cars and Hi-liners have railfan windows. Amtrak has a reverse railfan view.
That's true, but I've encounted many situtations where the first car was closed to passengers.
As for the R46 there are as old as I am. I was born in 1973 and remeber as I got older seeing them out my windows at Luna Park. I remenber seeing the different ways they put cars on the ABBA, AABA order, and seeing all the red light when the doors were open. I also rember them cutting the train down to four car on the Nights and sometime the Weekends.
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
I wish I could've ridden those rolling stocks.
By 1979, when I started working in lower Manhattan, I would shun the trains of R44s on the E, to ride the old R10s on the CC. Now, in the 21st century, I find myself actually LIKING them. And, I could like them a great deal more if they had narrow cabs and a railfan window. But, you can't have everything.......
Please. There is overexaggeration of traverse cabs and RFW needs on this board. I enjoy the ride and look of the cars themselves. I don't mind railfanning once in a while, but it also feels good just to sit down and gaze out the window...provided you're not on a R68.
Of course, the R68/A's have the opposite, complete shine. :)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Without getting into it, I have extenuating circumstances that have come up. Check...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Only the far western end of the North Shore line is scheduled for reopening soon, in order to provide rail service to the Howland Hook ship terminal. Any resumption of service on the rest of the line is nothing but mere speculation.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I finally arrived EARLY to meet Jersey Mike at the Penn Basement. After our meeting we set forth on the northbound 7th Avenue line. After a long wait, a 2 showed up, which we passed up in favor of the railfan reverse peephole on the R-62, so we got on the 3. Then we had to wait for the 2 a long time at 135th Street. It was there that a local nut informed me that I had forgotten to remove a sticker from my pants. Nuts are very helpful people. On our return trip to 241, I called Chapter 11 Choo Choo arranging our meeting at the Rupert Jee Hello Deli. To get there, we changed for the 1 at 72nd Street, then to the D at 59th Street, but only because the 1 was running semi-express on the local track. Mike and I split the Jude Brennan and the Shaffer. The next portion of our trip took us from 7th Avenue on the D to 161st Street-Yankee Stadium, where we saw the new platform level toilets heypaul first mentioned on this board. I couldn’t immediately find the escalator so we were forced to take the escalator. The 161 renovation looks EXQUISITE. After a trip to Woodlawn and back on an R-142, we changed at Union Square to the 6 and at B’way-Laf for the F or V (I don’t remember) to West 4th to look at the tower there. We left at West 4th Street and accessed 9th Street on the PATH, which at the west end includes a ridiculously narrow platform bit. PATH took us to Hobojoe Which brought us to the only part of the HHGT that I’ve never been on. Yada, yada, yada, I now have a new NJT Rail System map.
The final New York aspect of the trip involved PATH at Exchange Place to Newark, and then the NJT NEC. We then rode the R7 to Market East and PATCO to Haddonfield, which is in desperate need of Gazebo reform.
The 7/11 trip report, including a visit to 7-11 is yet to come.
Question, on the whole trip my train barely exceeded 80 mph, evem between MIDWAY and FAIR. What is up with this? Is NJT still breaking in the ALP-46 and Comet V's at low speeds?
-----------------------------------------
I don't get what you are trying to say?
Second mention of escalator: INCORRECT, should be ELEVATOR.
What is HHGT?
Yada, yada, yada, I now have a new NJT Rail System map.
Funny!
The HBLR is incorrect as it does not yet go to Bergen county, making it a Hudson-Hudson and Light Rail is really just a Glorified Trolley.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R160
On 7/11, Jersey Mike and I each rode PATCO out to Philadelphia. I had breakfast at a place on 17th and JFK where there was some confusion and I got a free sandwich in addition to the meal I paid $7 for.
The next part of the trip involved the purchase of INEPTA day passes at Suburban Station for our ride to Pattison (the last part of the BSS I haven’t been on), there we looked at the Sports Complex, including the FU Center, FU Spectrum and the poor vet, which will soon treat its last patient. We also caught glimpses of the new horribly named Lincoln Financial Field and Citizen’s Bank Park. This trip was mostly a TOURIST trip for me and the railfanning beyond this point was more for transportation than for sightseeing. Upon return to City Hall, we transferred to the MFL and rode that to 5th/Independence where we visited the Independence Hall and the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia (which has a state quarter dispenser) and saw the new replacement for the National Articles of Confederation Center. Then we rode the MFL to the Reading Terminal Market and Pennsylvania Convention Center (we checked out a little of the latter as the atrium is in the old Reading train shed), this included a pizza-based lunch at the RTM. After the RTM, we went out to City Hall, which is MUCH cooler than the New York equivalent and got on the Subway-Way at Juniper for a ride to 19th.
THIS COMPLETES THE SET. I have now been in every part of the Philadelphia subway. I just have never ridden the 101 and 102 and the way part of all of the Subway-Way lines.
At 19th we saw the portal the trains use on their run from Suburban Station to Urban Station at 30th Street. After a short walk to Logan Square and back where we saw a BUDD plane outside the (Franklin) Institute, we rode the S-W and the MFL back to 5th/Independence (where 70s+Patriotic=Bicentennial) and walked around the Old City and Society Hill. We boarded the MFL at 2nd. Mike left at 8th for PATCO and I continued on expecting to walk along the Ben Franklin Pkwy from Logan Square to the Art Museum. I remembered a cute little marzipan piggy I saw at the Reading Terminal Market and got off at 13th (and walked back underground) to go and buy it since it was almost 6. After searching for the store for some time, and then finding it, I ditched the proposed walk, although I did make it to 19th on the Subway-Way. Once there I went to 7-11 at 19th and JFK and got a 64-ounce “Double Gulp” containing a Slurpee in that new yellow-flavored Mountain Dew flavor. At Suburban Station, I bought a two intermediate zone ticket from the ticket window and got on the 6:14 R7 to Trenton. I used the Day Pass for the part of the trip to Levittown, but the conductor didn’t collect any tickets between there and Trenton (Trenton is in zone 6, the Day Pass regional rail trip only works until zone 5), so now I have an extra SEPTA ticket. DOES ANYONE WANT AN EXTRA SEPTA TICKET?
Rest of the Trip involved a NJT Comet 5 to Penn, R-40 Slant from 34th to Kings Highway on the Q, 1994 CNG TMC RTS-06 to home on the B100.
First, let me make a remark about train signage: The TA needs to establish a standard for trains signage. I saw 2 N trains today. One indicated a north terminal of 36th St, another indicated shuttle. Need to pick one. Second was this Brown R train. They should have told All R to's to use a < R > instead of the (R) that was used. Or even better would have been to sign up the train's north end as "Special" and it's south end as "R".
Now then, to the observations. So, I was on this Brown R, and we're leaving Fulton St. A woman notices something ain't normal, and asks, "Is this train going to 14th st?" I shake my head no, and say that we're running on the J line, but someone else has decided to 'correct' me and say that we're going to 14th st. No big deal to me. I left it alone, because We're at Chambers, and I need a lex local (All trains running local. Fabulous service!)
The way home was downright appalling though. I decided to transfer at Canal st. I have to use the bridge platform to get from the 6 to the J. There were huge crowds waiting for a bridge train! I wanted to yell out: "THERE'S NO TRAINS COMING HERE!" but I didn't, mostly cuz I really didn't want to seem crazy. So I get to the J/M/Z plat, and there are ridiculous amounts of people confused by REGULAR signage. A sign saying that a stairway is for Brooklyn Q/W trains and both directions of 6/n/r trains is construed by at least 5 people as Brooklyn for ALL of the aforementioned trains. All signs to the broadway platform indicate that it is an N/R platform when neither train is running there. I had to explain to one guy multiple times that to get to 28th st, he had to take the W.... but on the platform for the N/R. In 10 minutes I helped at least 10 people, some with confusion regarding regular service patterns! The TA needs to do something about this. Or maybe, you guys can organize a subtalk fieldtrip to help these poor helpless people.
Tomorrow, I'm going to try helping more people on my way home. Some I just can't help though: I only speak english.
Jul 12, 2003 05:19:46 PM
Rail Delay: Due to a late relay train Northeast Corridor Line train #7878, the 4:13pm departure from Trenton, is operating with 15-minute delays.
All other NJ TRANSIT buses, trains and light rail lines are operating on or close to schedule.
The trains that are used only during rush hours or ball games is a "RAD" train, or "run as directed". These are quite rare on commuter rail since capacity is key, so an RAD is always better off as a scheduled extra.
AEM7
In the pic above, there is a train station. Chapter 11 cho cho label is as Tenefly rail and bus plaza. What train stops here? NJT? What line? Notice that there are no arms on the crossing gates.
No train stops there. The last passenger trains that ran there were the Erie-Lackawanna trains and service was discontinued sometime during the 1960s. The line used to run to Nyack, NY.
There are some plans afoot to extend the Hudson-Bergen LRT’s northern terminus up to this station. Sorely needed, too; eastern Bergen County is a nightmare, what with road traffic being so congested there during rush-hours…
The ROW still has room for two tracks, in case you are wondering.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, the station does have a platform: It's a low platform, which is on or only slightly above ground level.
which runs to Nyack, NY
Which ran to Nyack. Tracks are long gone (trains were cut back to Sparkill almost four decades ago IIRC); the furthest north they go is either Sparkill, NY or Northvale, NJ. No tracks into Piermont either, which was the Erie RR’s original terminus.
and connects to all the Erie branches on the approach to Hoboken
No connection to any tracks into Hoboken currently exist. AFAIK the Northern never connected at West End, instead using the Arches or the tunnel and going adjacent to the National Docks branch, but I could be mistaken about that.
hence the E at the PATH station
The letter “E” in question appears on the support pillars on the platforms; this being at the Pavonia/Newport station on the PATH system, and indeed stands for Erie Terminal.
i did PATCO style driving -- starting from a standing stop i would accelerate at maximum power until i hit linespeed, then coast until speed drops below maximum, and accelerate again until i reach maximum... and so on. just like a real PATCO train. oh, and i was driving the thing like a locomotive too -- two toots on the horn before i move, and extensive use of coasting to match my speed to the progression of traffic light cycles, gentle deceleration cycles if i can see the signal ahead is at stop.
people were scared of me because the thing is so damn huge. so even if i was only in 1 lane, they left the other lane clear, so it was easy to switch lanes.
subway content: i don't think i could have moved house in a subway train.
AEM7
What we need for real proff, er proof, is that happening to a number of trains in succession.
Now, try to explain to these people what's going on at Exchange place. You'll have better luck trying to explain the theory of relativity.
Since December and the rebuilt WTC station are not too far off, they are pretending on the map that Exchange Place is just the WTC service cut back.
FWIW.
John
;file=r32
file=R32
Change the R32's to R143.
Some of the announcements were unexpected.
At Park Place: "This is Park Place. Transfer is available to the A and E trains." [No C and no PATH -- both correct right now, but how did it know? But it was wrong about the E. Late night program, maybe? But why does the 3 have a late night program at all?]
At 14th Street: "This is 14th Street. Transfer is available to the 1, F, and L trains. Connection is available to PATH trains." [Okay, so it's definitely running either the late night or the weekend program.]
At Times Square: "This is Times Square-42nd Street. Transfer is available to the 1, 7, A, C, E, N, Q, and R trains. Transfer is available to the W train. Transfer is available to the shuttle to Grand Central. Connection is available to the Port Authority Bus Terminal." [HUH? Both the N and the W? And why does the W get its own special announcement? Oh, and the C's back, along with the R and shuttle, so this isn't the late night program after all.]
"This is a Harlem-One Hundred Forty-Eighth Street-bound 3 express train!"
By the way, is the voice of the 3 line announcements the same as the voice of the 2 or of the 5, or is it yet another person?
It occurred to me later that I don't think I heard a single concatenative announcement. (The 2 announcements, OTOH, are mostly concatenative, except for a few prerecorded ones, like "Transfer is available to the 3 train" and "Transfer is available to the 1 and 9 trains.") Perhaps that's why the W was listed separately and the N was included -- nobody bothered to rerecord the main announcement. OTOH, shouldn't concatenative announcements still be available as a fallback in cases like this?
Why not in all cases?
Here is a recording I made while on my R-142 on the 3 trip:
This is a Harlem bound 3 train
There's PATH Service at the WTC!?!?
But it was wrong about the E.
Connection is available to the E all times.
There was no transfer to the E this weekend at Park Place for the same exact reason there was no transfer to the C: weekend GO's. On a typical weekend, both are available.
Yeah, its kinda funny when some C/R's cut off the announcement with the loud DING!
There was a GO that had no weekend C or E service at Park Pl? How'd that one work?
C service was suspended entirely, and the A ran local. (IMO, the service that ran should have been called the C, but you know how I feel and I know how you feel, so let's leave it at that.) The E ran via the F between Roosevelt and 2nd Avenue. (The F, OTOH, ran via the C SB from W4 to Jay, so E and F trains each ran the "wrong" way after W4, and 2nd Avenue was a dead end for SB passengers. There was remarkably little confusion at 2nd -- even though the SB local track wasn't taped off, I didn't see anybody waiting at it, and everyone who boarded the E on the SB "express" track either knew or had a hunch that it was going uptown.)
The 3's real late night program would be the same program that would normally be used early Sunday Mornings, the Lenox Shuttle, from 135th Street to 148th Street. This is a 135th Street bound 3 train...., local service on the (3) line. The only thing needed in that program would be a transfer is available to the 2(most likely they will just say this is the last stop....)
THIS IS ATLANTIC AVE. (pause) TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE TO THE 3,4,5,B,D,N,Q, AND R TRAINS. CONNECTION IS AVAILABLE TO LONG-ISLAND RAILROAD.
I hope I keep hearing the bell at PARK PLACE on the 2 to cut off the recording for the PATH connection.
LOL, those automated announcements really get annoying after a while.
At 8 Ave, I remembered the GO being the A was the only train running. And 14 St was packed with people. So we got back on the L to 6 Ave and took the 2 to Times Square.
Our final line was the 7. Once again, women galore, but no redbirds waiting. We took the 7 to Main Street, then changed ends and boarded R62A 2099. Once again, we had our RFW to ourselves. My pal doesn't like sharing the window with others. I'm an only acception. Leaving Main St, we finally saw an eastbound redbird entering Willets Point. And the sunset with the city was worth a few pics. But I don't own a digicamera as of yet. Finally, I got off at Grand Central and my friend continued to Times Square to head back to Riverdale. Caught a 5 running local and took it to my home stop: 68 St-Hunter College. Today was a perfect day to surf the subway. I had a good time and someday, we Subtalkers can surf one day together, just as long as we don't meet at Times Square on the 7. TOO DARN HOT.
Jimmy
Got me.
I clicked to read thinking you were up up and splatting!
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Former Houston Mayor Robert Lanier, a past Chairman of the Houston METRO Authority was quoted back in 1990, in the
Houston Metropolitan Magazine, (page 49):
"First they [rail's supporters] say `It's cheaper.'
When you show it costs more, they say, `It's faster.'
When you show it's slower, they say, `It serves more riders.'
When you show there are fewer riders, they say, `It brings economic development.'
When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.'
When you say you don't want to spend that much money on image, they say `It will solve the pollution problem.'
When you show it won't help pollution, they say, finally, `It will take time for rail to do some good.'"
In the unbiased opinion of this board, do the arguments have merit?
Trouble is, they are all TRUE!!
Light rail is NOT cheaper (except maybe than heavy rail....)
It will NOT be faster (the routing will take 90 minutes, where buses now do it in 55 from end-to-end!)
Economic development? Yeah, right, tear up the streets, make allt he business go broke while construction is undeway at a funereal pace.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Look at San Jose -- built their light rail system, and it has fallen below projections...nobody even uses it on weekends. And their transit agency is going broke (or already is, I should say....)
David
But some places it is basically a white elephant. San Jose, I cited, as the prime example. Hopefully it won't get built, but what they are planning for Orange County is a joke, too (and I actually work for the transit agency involved). I understand that Minneapolis-St. Paul didn't exactly want it, but it got built, and now they're trying to scrape up some $$$ to actually run the thing so it WILL head for success.
And if traffic congestion gets worse, what do you replace the bus with? Helicopters and tiltrotors?
And if traffic gets worse -- the light rail will go even slower, asit is running right there in the streets with the traffic.
There is operating cost data in the National Transportation Database, which is available on the web broken down by mode.
Here are some highlights for agencies that operate both bus and rail systems for 2001.
Agency, Bus$/V-Hour, Bus$/V-Mile, HR$/V-Hour, HR$/V-Mile, LR$/V-Hour, LR$/VMile
NYCT, $110.40, $13.97, $123.88, $6.79, -, -
MTA(MD), $100.83, $8.35, $223.53, $8.78, $184.18, $11.67
WMATA, $101.32, $9.03, $195.60, $8.79, -, -
MBTA, $8.50, $94.76, $217.67, $9.89, $245.89, $16.39
SEPTA, $98.05, $9.49, $129.23, $7.07, $129.83, $13.47
NJT, $101.46, $8.89, -, -, $365.77, $33.03
METRO (Houston), $82.03, $4.39, -, -, -, -
On a mode by mode comparison within the same agency, it would appear that on a per mile basis the cost in ascending order is: heavy rail; bus; light rail.
Dividing the cost/V-Hour by the cost/V-Mile gets the average speed. It would appear that light rail is faster than bus service in most but not all markets.
HOWEVER, the cost for Houston's METRO's bus service is significantly lower and the speed is higher than all other markets. The magnitude of the differences between Houston's bus service costs and speed raises some questions as to whether the level of service is at all comparable.
Heavy rail is of course faster than surface modes in congested areas, because it by-passes traffic congestion on the surface.
Light rail shares the speed advantage only if running on its own tracks in congested areas.
Light rail running along streets seems no different from streetcars, and has no speed advantage (unless it stops less frequently).
What was Robert Lanier comparing rail to? If it was an existing bus service, he could well be right. I know this is Subtalk not Bustalk, but buses might have been the right answer for Houston.
Was there any more of the article, so we can put this quotation in context?
John
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-policy/message/29717
The original message text was as follows:
"I'm sure this will stoke some discussion:
http://marypirg.org/MD.asp?id2=10123&id3=MD
(the square at the end, after =MD, should be ampersand, number, one)
For immediate release:
June 9, 2003 For more information contact:
Brad Heavner (410) 467-0439
Dan Pontious (410) 323-9780
Brent Flickinger (410) 539-1369
Rail Transit Beats Expectations: Survey Of Rail Systems In U.S. Cities Finds Rail Is Popular And Leads To Revitalization
Baltimore - A study of rail-based public transit systems in nine U.S. cities found that ridership has surpassed expectations in nearly every case and that rail systems have boosted redevelopment around transit stations. The study suggested that Baltimore could reap similar benefits from expanding its rail system.
"Rail is clearly the way to go, judging from the experiences of cities that have gone before us," said Brad Heavner, executive director of the MaryPIRG Foundation. "People are riding rail in numbers beyond expectations, and this has led to revitalization of urban neighborhoods."
The new report, Rail Transit Works: Light Rail Success Stories from Across the Country, analyzes the popularity of transit systems in six states and Washington, D.C. Among the findings:
. Ridership was 40 percent higher than projected after a recent light rail expansion in Denver. Ridership in the first year of rail service in St. Louis was 3.5 times higher than expected. Salt Lake City's system is transporting 50 percent more riders every day than anticipated.
. Some transportation needs are met predominantly by transit. For example, 50 percent of morning commuters across San Francisco Bay use heavy rail, and 70 percent of trips to MCI Center in Washington, D.C. are via transit.
The study comes as Maryland Secretary of Planning Robert Flanagan has announced that heavy rail will not be considered for Baltimore. A wide array of organizations and decision makers is urging the Secretary to reconsider.
"This report shows what more and more people around the country are discovering-that high quality transit systems make for more transportation choices and more attractive communities," said Baltimore Regional Partnership Executive Director Dan Pontious. "It also shows why state Transportation Secretary Robert Flanagan's decision not to explore heavy rail for Baltimore's new Red Line is so short-sighted."
"We should learn our lessons from the experiences of other cities," said Brent Flickinger, transportation director of the Citizens Planning and Housing Association. "When the Metro opened on Sunday here, ridership was more than double the projections. Though the initial construction costs are higher than adding buses, in the long run, rail attracts more riders and is cheaper to
operate, is faster and more reliable, and does not contribute to air pollution."
The study found that property values are typically higher near transit stations, drawing redevelopment and an increased tax base. Property near the rail line in Dallas has risen 25 percent in value compared to more distant properties. Residential property close to rail stations in Washington, D.C. is worth $6 to $8 per square foot more than comparable properties farther away. Two billion dollars of construction has occurred along Portland's Eastside rail line.
Baltimore holds great potential for transit-oriented development, according to the report. MTA forecasts an overall increase in property values around transit stations of as much as $1.2 billion from full realization of the Baltimore Regional Rail Plan.
"We have seen time and again that people prefer rail over buses," Heavner added. "If we want to revitalize the areas around transit stations into vibrant communities, we have to build a transit system that is attractive to people."
The MaryPIRG Foundation report also found that people traveling via rail are not simply people who switched from buses when rail became available, according to surveys of rail passengers in three cities. Nearly fifty percent of rail passengers in Los Angeles had a car available for the trip on which they were surveyed. In Denver, 75 percent of passengers had access to a car but chose rail instead. In Dallas, 59 percent of passengers that own cars would have driven alone if light rail were not available.
The MaryPIRG Foundation called on the state to facilitate development of an effective transit system expansion in Baltimore in three ways:
1. Prioritize construction of a Baltimore rail system when seeking federal funding for transportation projects. The Maryland Transportation Administration should be granted funding for an accelerated schedule for planning and construction of the Red and Green Lines of the proposed regional rail plan.
2. Study both light and heavy rail along with increased bus service for the transit system expansion. Although rail is more expensive, it is likely to result in more redevelopment and thus a higher tax base for the city and greater financial returns in the long run, according to the group.
3. Provide opportunities for transportation planners to work side by side with land use planners. Transit-oriented development should be an integral part of the rail plan.
MaryPIRG, the Maryland Public Interest Research Group, is a statewide, non-profit, non-partisan public interest advocacy organization. The MaryPIRG Foundation is the organization's research and policy arm. Visit www.marypirg.org for more information."
There were a number of responses, including the one that quoted the former Mayor of Houston which may be found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-policy/message/29726
Its full text was as follows:
"Dear Dharm,
This is just more of the leftist-biased media continuing to promote the "Big Lie" about the benefits of urban rail, made by people with "feathered nests," so as to encourage the pro-rail lemmings (Liberal's useful idiots) to continue to run head-long over the cliff.
Former Houston Mayor Robert Lanier, a past Chairman of the Houston METRO Authority was quoted back in 1990, in the Houston Metropolitan Magazine, (page 49): "First they [rail's supporters] say `It's cheaper.' When you show it costs more, they say, 1It's faster.' When you show it's slower, they say, `It serves more riders.' When you show there are fewer riders, they say, `It brings economic development.' When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.' When you say you don't want to spend that much money on image, they say `It will solve the pollution problem.' When you show it won't help pollution, they say, finally, `I will take time for rail to do some good.'"
What was a true and correct observation then, is cogent and attributable to urban rail and its promoters 13 years later.
Tom Bazan
Houston"
I joined in December. While there are a few posters who seem willing to think about the issues and a few rabidly pro-transit posters, the list is heavily dominated by rabidly anti-transit posters -- no great surprise there, given who sponsors the list.
Yes, I recently started getting their emails but have not contributed to the debate so far.
The sponsor is "The Public Purpose", and I have just been looking at their web page for the first time.
According to http://www.publicpurpose.com/
"POLICY STATEMENT
Urban Rail: Uses and Misuses
The Public Purpose has consistently found urban rail to be an expensive and ineffective strategy for reducing traffic congestion in automobile oriented urban areas, despite unsupportable claims by promoters to the contrary.
Urban rail is quite appropriate in high density, highly centralized urban areas such as Tokyo-Yokohama, Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto, New York, London, Paris and Hong Kong. The Public Purpose is not opposed to urban rail. The Public Purpose is opposed to waste and deception."
John
Tide washes whiter!
…than peeing on the garment!
…than what!
If I had any say about an advertising standards authority, I would ban such meaningless slogans. They just irritate the hell out of me.
"When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.'"
Lanier has never shown "no economic development" That's a basic falsehood.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150819&category=NATIONAL&newsdate=7/12/2003
Add to that the relinquishment of subsidies to smaller airports that the article mentioned and it all emphasizes once again that this country is without a comprehensive transportation policy that recognizes the importance of a viable national multimode (air, road, rail, sea) network. Democrats and Republicans must share that guilt equally, as no administration in recent history of either party has developed such a strategy.
I'm sure you meant "1.8-billion dollar request". We wish that Amtrak had 18 billion dollars to work with.
Koi
NO, If you believe in this civics fantasy, then budget issues SHOULD reflect citizen attitudes. For thirty plus years Republicans and thei Democrat collaborators have starved and strangled ATk. It was designed to fail, the first new diesels were deliberately modified frt engines in case the corp folded they could be flogged off to the RR's. The whole thing was invented to save money for the franchise/charter holders who PERMISSION/PRIVILEGE to operate freight included a REQUIREMENT to also run pass trains. The quid pro quo was supposed to be uncle Sam covers the losses, the RR's run the trains honorably. Well, we all know that joke. Meanwhile it was hoped the few afraid to fly geezers would die off and everything off the NEC would evaporate. Thanks to our friends in the Persian Gulf, a funny thing happened. And ever since DESPITE the best efforts to sabotage ATK by the RR's people keep walking up to the ticket counters with money.
You may noy use ATK very often, but in general their numbers hasve grown--AND there is no two hour wait for security to miss the stuff in your luggage.
So I say again, write, phone etc your sengresspersons--whatever your opinions. Maybe, just maybe if we all pretend together that we live in a democratic system, the crooks might shape up.
Then persuade Congress to let it do that. It's Congress' fault, not Amtrak's. Of course, there are places which consider Amtrak service their lifeline (just like state-subsidized Greyhound service to small towns).
"Being a republican and a railfan I have conflicting views on this subject. I wasnt passanger rail to survive, but I despise a state-run railroad."
As long as we have nothing better to offer, we shouldn't trash what we have.
Amtrak is not clammoring to downsize. If it weren't a government run railroad, it could.
Actually, that's not true. Amtrak has said it will cut the network. All Congress has to do is confirm that decision by deleting funds. But it won't.
"If it weren't a government run railroad, it could."
Not true either. Many Greyhound routes woyuldn't exist without state subsidies. Your comment makes no sense at all.
As to long distance, you should check space availability--many book out each summer season. THESE RIDERS are not dead. They choose to spend MORE than for "airbus" service because they wish to enjoy the trip. As a taxpayer I vote to spend money on state run trains because I WANT rail service.
And finally, while I defend to the death your right to believe Republican ideology, remember NO passenger transportation services worldwide make profit with full accounting of capital as well as operational costs. Please consider the real estate taxes which the PA, and MTA would be paying if the airports,the subways,MN, and LIRR were not socialist enterprises and then explain how these entities could raise capital for their projects without the advantage of being able to use tax-free municipal financial paper.
Ah, no, it's Congress that places unreasonable demands on Amtrak service (like everybody's little pet train) and then doesn't offer enough money for Amtrak to meet those demands. Amtrak does the best it can with what it has. Stop the airlines from getting free money and then we'll talk.
SO, I'll just leave it here. Corporations perfectly ABLE to make a profit should NOT be getting welfare checks. Or certainly no more than AMTRAK GETS ... there ... on topic. But hey, these are republican times - check out the human flesh content of that stadium dog, we're this far from "soylent green" ...
The net result is once again, the Fed budget is deeply in the RED, the receivers of golden parachutes and their fellow speculators keep more of their enron style earnings and the ex-employees are as ripped off as the Teamsters were in the Beck/Hoffa years. A steel company goes belly and the guy who worked forty years now has no health insurance. That's free enterprise.
The transit district can't afford to run services in the neighborhoods, and the non auto citizenry can't shop, get to medical care, BUT those SUV driving Republican suburbanites don't care--they NEVER use transit.
I can understand why there's an issue here - plenty of LAWYERS representing the "DNA trail" of "child support lost" ... $5 million for the number of flings (not counting counsel) ... heh. PAUPERS!
Maybe the "estate" will provide enough money for a pair of R68's to create that awesome "double-wide manufactured housing" we've all come to know and love upstate. If there's gunshots in the middle of the night, there's a doublewide in the distance. Yee-hah, we're the "new sheriff in town" party. And he don't NEED no steenking token. :)
Welfare is needed only for most indigent and needy of people. The rest should get off their collective asses and go out and work. Take any job, work your ass off and look for improvement down the road.
Agreed 110% Fred. Total agreement with that. I never believed in welfare, and always though that if your wark hard, you get someplace in life.
Pity we couldn't be spending taxpayer money rebuilding our OWN Northeast Corridor or something similar, instead of having to provide makework after we blew up things, many for no strategic reason other than upping the bottom lines of these two companies. :(
And THERE'S the rub. I'm sorry, but if a family with 5 kids has them DYING and being dumped in garbage cans around here, versus Mary Lou Whitney getting ANOTHER rosebush planted in Saratoga at taxpayer expense, then I'd have to side with ...
AMTRAK (on topic, no bible)
the "welfare recipients" ... having BEEN through republican times ... lemme see now, NIXON - MTA, FORD - WIN football, REAGAN - Oh yeah, took a job with religious broadcaster in Poughkeepsie until they went away to the federal hoosegow for FRAUD (IRS too, this Jim and Tammy Bakker partnership was BIGGER than that stupid THEME park thang - can anyone say TBN? - nope, one would have to CARE about who REALLY puppeteers the ... "Amtrak is not nice, they're taking away daddy's tax cut" folks ...
REALITY is what the *****HEAD***** Republican once said, the almighty GIPPER, who makes god a PUNY little LIBERAL. DIE, god ... as I posted elsewhere and amusingly can't find THAT message either anymore. So, which party is left?
The "Osama's going to rape your daughter party?" Or the "we'll do it to an INTERN instead. Someone ELSE'S dotter. But as a TRUE American, you go away saying "my 'roids are cool, glad it wasn't me." :-\
All depends on WHICH evil. I had *HOPED* the libertarian party would be the answer ... Jesse Ventura, 'nuff said. Ross Elephantears and that WHACKY Admiral ... RIGHT out of Rocky and Bullwinkle.
ANyone ever WONDER why I'm as HARD on politics as I am? *****THEY***** run the subways. THEY run Amtrak ... THEY make your busride hell ... and THEY give Donald Trump and NY Junkie owner George Steingrabber MONEY ... because YOU can go to hell. How big a check did *YOU* write to your (oh GOD, I LOVE this terminology, and it's OFFICIAL!!!) "MEMBER (think about that, won't you after all those spams?) OF ASSEMBLY" ... lemme remove the ()'s and leave it for all the glory YOUR anointed legislator is worth:
(YOUR name here for a fee)
MEMBER OF ASSEMBLY
(can I hear a HALLILUJAH?)
Now if these MORONS gave themselves TITLES like THAT, what do you think is going to happen to the HOURLIES if the above is OK?
OK ... Lemme explain it *THIS* way ... here is a current chart of the chain of command, you'll see why I AGREE they can all go to hell, but it's TIME to change the diaper, even if it's a used one. The REST of us need to get motivated to create a *NEW* party ... one that'll put Arnines in every shopping mall, and a redbird on everyporch!
Meanwhile, HERE's how MTA management works:
(WARNING! Above picture will SELF-DESTRUCT in 5 DAYS. The secretary will disavow all knowledge of its secure undisclosed location.
FLASHES STRICTLY PROHIBITED!!! UP AGAINST THE WALL! (ewwwwwww!) :)
Eh Fred! You already forgot, it's TWO buses required from 86th st/Sea Beach to Coney Island, I already made a statement on that, HA HA!
I think I'm going to have to fix the message deletion script to lower the post quota by 1 for each o.t. thread that person starts.....
If they were in a thread called "Try your hand...pictures to identify" I read them and fixed the ones that were positively identified.
If you want to ask me questions in private use the feedback form or my email if you already know it.
I don't think the problem is people starting off-topic threads. Most SubTalkers don't do that, and don't respond to the few OT threads that do start. What happens instead is that a thread starts out on-topic and then drifts away. That's what happened here - IIRC, it started out as a discussion of how Congress doesn't like Amtrak, and turned into a general political diatribe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I *meant* to say in the previous, as the GIPPER put it ...
ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN YOU WERE FOUR YEARS AGO (WHEEZE)
... I'll leave it there. After SHRUB though, I'm VOTING for the damned Proctor Silex. Even Unca FRED will get the depths of my own motivation here. If Fidel Castro was on the BALLOT, BADA-BING-BADA-BOOM. Hell, I'd vote for DEGAULLE. WILLY BRANDT. Frigging BREZHNEV. Hell, even Buffalo Bob, Howdy Doody and BOZO THE CLOWN (with or without Officer Joe Bolton) would kick "*.ASP" on this fool (And bunch of "WE'RE SO CHICKENCHIT we LIVE in an undisclosed lcoation") puthies we've got now. I DARE say, when it comes to GUTLESS, masquerading in jello-like blobs of crybaby pants-wetting, ain't NOTHING like the SHRUB administration.
"Nothing to fear but CHENEY himself." :(
Alex, I'll take the BLENDER for 2004 please ...
With Republicans finding new an innovative ways to exterminate Amtrak but fear public backlash on this matter. When they find a way to tell American workers that O/T is not slave labor as they want to change it. When they want to spend billions on foreign interests but do little or nothing for the war veteran who is permanently disabled. When the rich get richer, convicted felons disguised as top-level executives keep their savings and working class investors lose everything to these same goons, well THE REPUBLICANS DICTATE WHAT GOES ON IN THE COUNTRY!
Dave, if you read this post, could you please update those pictures? Thanks.
Then there's New York which was the OPPOSITE parties running the state ... same result though. Hmmm. I'd look higher up the food chain. This "bicameral" thing ain't working so well. Can we ditch the house and keep the senate? :)
My guess is that Amtrak will have to choose between its transcontinental routes and its existence by 2006 at the latest, because if the economy does not pick up within the next year or so, both Congress and the States will not have the money to subsidize Amtrak train service from Chicago to the Pacific Coast (and for that matter, whatever other train services Amtrak may be contracting for the states). That is, unless Amtrak is willing to put up with one train per week service on the California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, and Sunset Limited (and even here, one or more of these trains may get the ax).
Other states will not allow the Northeast to get such a return on their tax dollars without a cut. David Gunn's popularity is too high to make him disappear. What do you do? You find the money and hold Amtrak to their five year plan. Thankfully, the entire plan consists of no-brainer improvements and only the DMUs might get a challenge.
Changed at 9th for easier ride to midtown though...
Diamonds usually indicate special rush hour service, no?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Usually it does indicate peak directional express service but in the case of the Q diamond it runs all day so I would say its reserved for weekday express service.
On the Brown R it was used up until 1987 when they ran from 95 St-Chambers St in the rush hours. And most of the R42's still has the R bullet. Since the Nassau line most likely can't use 75 footers in that section they are using the 42's.
True, but the route was eliminated before those cars even received those signs. The first R42's came back from their GOH months after the route was eliminated.
The last train was composed of eight R-42's.
S 4878-9, 4850-1, 4897-6, 4937-6.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I wish I can see the Brown diamond R in action but I don't know if I can make it out there this Sunday...
About diamonds, I think they now are used to indicate a change from the normal service (example the diamond Q ).
til next time
Diamonds, well according to the MTA, indicate either express, rush hour or special service.
I will be visiting London for a few weeks in August and would be interested in chatting with or meeting up with SubTalkers who are as adept and versed with lore on on Underground as those of us here are with the NYC subway on this side of the Atlantic.
I would espeically like to ask a few questions of a technical nature to any good folks here who might happen to work with LUL, if that's at all possible.
I expect to be in the UK between July 29th and August 19th and staying near the East Finchley Northern Line station. Anyone wishing to get together for a pint or a chat (or both), please e-mail me in private. I lok forward to visiting London again and hopefully to putting a few names to faces.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
As far as the database thing, whatever. Keep taking photos.
Umm, gee, you work for the TA. Does that mean YOU don't know what your doing. Fine support for your fellow employees.
Peace,
ANDEE
2 years ago we never thought some people would be learning how to fly a plane (Not land it or take off) so that they could crash it into 2 tall buildings.
Do you want to know two real ways to improve security? 1) More manned interlocking towers, 2) more railfans out there with cameras who can discover terrorists, detect their atempts at sabotage and then record their identities.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
It is also the busiest passenger carrying railroad in the country. Running in a territory that has about 8 million people on an island only 120 miles long. Maybe the case could be made for the legitimacy of having the towers remain. I've never fully accepted the logic of "central planning operations" as you mentioned. For all the technology available it's still a good idea to have live eyes and ears right on the scene.
2) This wouldn't help
160.380 ROAD CHANNEL 1
161.445 DISPATCHER
161.265 YARD CHANNEL
160.920 AMTRAK OPERATIONS
160.605 LIRR POLICE
160.455 LIRR POLICE
And if you worry that you will be on their short list in case of a derailment just for taking pictures, how would it be to be known as the mysterious photographer who uses a scanner to try to evade contact with the police while surreptitiously taking pictures of the railroad? You could end up seeing posters with a drawing of your face on them.
Tom
Only while in a motor vehicle, I believe.
Good enough for ya?
I dont post pics often, so my un-expertise shows... :-0
Ok, your first statement was on-topic and funny. This isn't. Please learn where to draw the line. Thanks.
Yes indeedly doo.
[B] Scratch-free RFW trip from 242 VCP to Nevins St.
(shot 2001 when the RFW 3 line cars ran on 1).
Not 4 sale, brahs.
[X] Same trip, but attach the 'A' reel (above) to 'B' reel to make a
COMPLETE trip running (SP SPEED!!!!!) from 242 VCP to South Ferry.
Not 4 sale, brahs.
------------------------------------------------------------
HONORABLE MENTIONS.......
[2/5] Salaam Allah's IRT Redbirds 2000 full-length video.
See Brah Salaam.
I'll get back to you on the "best photo" one...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4411.jpg
Why would a R36 from Corona show up on the 2? They are found only on the 7, right? The only times when the R-36s leave the 7 is when they go to Coney Island for major overhaul or repairs. But when would one of the 7's R36s run on the ML? Maybe the T/O made a wrong turn...
BTW, in the early-mid 1990's I remember redbirds on the #6 which had orange doors inside. Anyone else remember these?
Chaohwa
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Lo-V’s were the standard car of the IRT. They were the culmination of a design that started with the pioneer Composites and was modified and developed through several classes of High-V’s. The first Low-Voltage cars were of course the Flivvers. The Flivvers had low-voltage motors but they retained much of their High-V ancestry. They were “sprinters” seeing service only in the peak hours and never had quite the robustness of the other IRT cars.
The Lo-V’s (s they were almost always referred to, instead of Low-Voltage) which followed them were the true thoroughbreds of the IRT. They ran perfectly well in express or local service but were most at home on the express services while the local run tended to be handled by the High-V’s. The Standards may have been the battleships of the First Generation subway fleet but the Lo-Vs were the speed -demons.
My recollections of the Lo-V’s starts in the early 1960’s when they still held sway on the Lexington Avenue Express runs. (Nos 4 & 5). The R-Types had already made much headway in replacing the old IRT Fleet. The High-V’s were gone and the Flivvers said farewell in 1962 but there were still plenty of Lo-V’s and their somewhat slower cousins the Steinways still around.
The Lo-V’s were nice and warm in the winter with very good heat. In the summer their large and powerful fans provided ventilation on the hottest of days. The seats where of rattan which was quite comfortable. Some of the cars had been retrofitted with red vinyl seats like the R-17’s but the red seats seemed somewhat out of place. Some Lo-V’s still had the drop seats at the center door. These were the cars which had gone over to Queens years ago and returned to the mainline in the early 50’s.
The Lo-V’s were the last large fleet of rapid transit cars to use trailers. The IRT had always made use of trailers both on its elevated and subway lines. The BRT/BMT used trailers extensively on the els but only a very few in subway service and the IND had none. A ten car train would have three trailers, a seven car train two and a five car train one. A ten car train would have two conductors, one between the 1st and 2nd cars and the other between the 9th and 10th cars. At Bowling Green Station the forward conductor would open the doors on both sides of the first car so passengers would have direct access to the short shuttle platform. At Grand Central motormen on northbound express would open their side door and allow passengers to pass through the cab in order to speed loading. One of the nicest features was the enclosed vestibules at the car ends. This was especially good if you were traveling a long distance say all the way to The Bronx. The outermost doors front and rear never opened so you could fit yourself in front of the nice big window on the storm door and enjoy the ride without being constantly jostled by passengers entering and leaving. The best part of a Lo-V trip front my point of view was the long elevated express run from 3 Avenue to Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Road Line. It was really great to be barreling along on the center express track and pass between two locals stopped in a station.
There was of course Lo-VM 5302 . The only one built without a center door. It looked like a passenger car built actually was built for revenue collection. The only other passenger-type subway cars that I know of that were built for revenue collection were the IND R-8A’s 66 & 67.
1963 was the last full year for Lo-V service. Lo-Vs, ran on the #4 and #5 . On December 23, 1963 the remaining Lo-V’s were transferred to the #3 7 Avenue-Lenox Express were they ran until February 21, 1964. This was to have been the last Lo-V’s run on the IRT mainline…..However a pair of Lo-V’s held sway in lower Manhattan on the shortest possible IRT route, the Bo wling Green Shuttle and dug their heals in and said “HELL NO, WE WON’T GO.” a succession of R-12’s, 14’s, and 17’s came and went throughout the summer in a vain effort to replace these stalwarts. Finally the last day came on August 6, 1964 when they were replaced by an ad hoc matchup of R-12 5775 and R-14 5834.
About 16 or so Lo-V Trailers soldiered on in The Bronx running in five car trains with their Steinway cousins on the 3 Avenue EL. Many of the Lo-V’s passed into work service and at one time there were nearly 200 of these, as work motors, revenue collection cars, snow plows etc. Yet the final curtain call for the Lo-VM’s hadn’t yet come down.
July 22, 1965 was to Rapid Transit Day at the New York World’s Fair and who showed up but five Lo-VM’s repainted in a dark green and overhauled. Cars 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483 made a run from Times Square to the World’s Fair and even carried civilians (I.e.non-railfans) . It laid up in the Corona Yard near the ramp to the World’s Fair entrance alongside a blue and orange Q-Type(1622 A-B-C) and some bule and white Bluebirds. (R-33WF and R-36WF). After this except for the few trailers still on the el the cars passed into honorable retirement….Or so we thought. As the 60’s wore on the old cars on the 3 Avenue El began to drop out one by one until a point was reached where there was not enough of them to protect the service… So the five museum cars came out of retirement once more and helped to cover the service until Novemebr 1969 when the R-12’s took over. The very last Lo-V to run in passengers service was trailer 5353 built in 1922 by the Pullman Company. It was November 3, 1969.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://palter.org/~subway/3rd-ave-low-v.html
Bill
Thurston. I don't think that the Lo-V's bore the red paint scheme orginally. The red scheme was certainly on the Gibbs Hi-V's when delivered and probably on the Composites as well. I don't know if the Deck-roofs ever had it.
The five Lo-V museum cars were repainted into the Pullman green for the 1965 World's Fair but were again repainted into Tuscan Red for the 75th Anniversary of the subway. After that they were repainted into what?, Gray for the 90th Anniversary.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Besides the exhorbitant costs that a project like that would incur (hell, we can't even afford to restore the Mineola or the BMT Standard) in a museum that is run almost entirely on donations and volunteers there are two other reasons why it could never occur:Whether us rapid transit fans like it or not, Branford is still basically a trolley museum and with a few exceptions, trolleys didn't normally travel over els.Branford prides itself on the fact that their ROW is the original Conn. Co. ROW and not trackage built for the museum.
For a bunhc of foamers, talking about how PHAT their "portfolios" are on high tech, that some money can't be preserved for the future out of what remains of our FOAMER legacy. :)
2775 rusts away, LAST of its breed at Branford. Does NYCTA have ANY left? As for the Mineola, while I *admire* its place in IRT history (REMEMBER, Selkirk lived in the IRT Borough, and the IRT cars were as familiar as fire plugs) ... STILL, the Mineola is the EPITOME of BELMONT history, but who cares? Justa stupid racetrack ... When STEINGRABBER or TRUMP owns "BELMONT" then the Mineola will matter. Nah, it's be PEZ that he gets remembered for. :(
But to let our HISTORY, ESPECIALLY as proud foamers, go to hell ... SHAME on you! Branford has some REAL treats - so does S eashore, so does KINGSTON, NY (and they're badly in need too and have an ARNINE that's rusted in place ... *OH* how Selkirk's heart SINKS at seeing R4 number 825 rotting IMMOBILE:
Now that just HURTS. If *ONLY* I had the money to adopt her. :(
And THAT'S why I appreciate Eddie S. at Branford. 1689, a newer car is in WONDERFUL shape. Oh, if only money existed to restore 825, I car that *WAS* in my books (yep, another "get out the baby powder for the palm" and USE it story ... but 825 was often a SOUTH MOTOR on the D train ... I remember that car WELL ... and she wasn't anywahere NEAR as "obstinate" as 1689 and others ... whoever chose the NYC museum fleet membership missed a PEARL ... and she's in Kingston, neglected, unpowered and unappreciated.
PLAIN old R4 ... nothing special, except a SOUL. She and I workewd together in 1970. OFTEN. Lead car to Brighton. And she was GOOD to me! Her motors NEVER tripped a breaker, her stands stood robust, she was truly a MIGHTY "steed" ... and no matter what FOLLOWED her, she'd GET you there. I *loved* 825 now that a former buddy of mine stopped by and showed me a photo of me in her. And NO, I didn't GET a copy. :(
I'd like to see them ALL get a "UBER MAKEOVER" even if FOX has to come and film it (or those jackasses that redo a house without permission) for Teevee ... what a LOGICAL thing to do on TV ... "We took this old junk NYC subway BMT car and jacked it up ... onto MONSTER TRUCKS! Screw them pussy 33 inch wheel, NO SIR! We're going for 72 INCH wheels! *TRY* to get in the doors of this puppy as it scrapes the Manhattan BRIDGE, FORGET about what it will do to your HOME station, but rescue crews should have you out in four days IF their funding isn't cut further. :)
Transit Museum has one, non-functional; RPC has three more in Coney Island, in red primer, and IIRC, presently off their trucks.
Ditto to everything else you said :)
Actually there are two long straight aways at Branford where you can really pick up speed. The ROW is 3 miles round trip and there are 3 trestles. And the S-curves are fun too. Makes the cars emit that wheel screeching sound that everyone loves. To be honest with you, since they usually couple it with 1689 and I am a devout Arnine fan, I very rarely ride the Low-V.
One other big plus with Branford over NYCT. For the price of a membership you can actually operate the Low-V!!!
It's not too soon to start thinking about a Fall Charter. I already know of several out-of-towners who are interested in doing it again/for the first time.
There is a lot of effort being made at Branford to develop a piece of land that is higher then most of the barns to have some place to put the fleet out of harms way when the next hurricane/storm tide comes calling.
#3 West End Jeff
I spent the first 14 years of my life riding Lo-V's...and the other "older" stock on the IRT (and the BMT Standard, D-type, Q-type -- the IND R-1/9's and R-10's)
Nothing could compare to the Lo-V's.....
As compared to today, think of dark, noisy--very distinct "tractiony" motor, gear and brake and compressor sounds--the distinctive loud noises have to be everyone's strongest impressions.
Though there was an impression of dirty, they nevertheless were airy because of the windows, vents and fans. They rocked and rumbled.
Bound up with this was that each division (and the H&M) had a distinctive "smell"--probably made up of the kinds of lubricants, brake shoe composition, ozone emissions, etc., typical of each system. Lo-Vs definitely had that IRT smell.
PATH, of course, still has a distinctive smell.
It's "Fresh Country SCENT"!!! City folks think LILACS are fresh country scent. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. A little Pennzoil drink for da fan motors, some OLD SOCKS, some 40 weight for the journal boxes, give it a couple of days to leak onto the axles, then let Unca Selkirk run em hard, and put 'em away wet, and it'll be 1938 all over again, complete with the scent of FRESH tunnel, newly poured SAKRETE everywhere ... I'll give yas a "classic Arnine smell," all I ask is PLEASE suck it into something and store it, or clear the lead to the barn (in case I overshoot) and let me wind her around the switch at 25, wrap it and dump it in the barn for ya. Suck it up, and you can SELL it as "car freshner for foamers."
Alas, to ME, that patented blue smoke only smells like WORK. :)
Now there's an idea ! If they can sell Florida sunshine in a can, why not ?
From: "Mr. Salaam W Allah nyc 11. 3. 51"
Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:46 am
Subject: ALL OF MY GROUPS / WEBPAGES
( SOME OF THEM ANYWAY ) .....lol !
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/contrib/salaam.jpg
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/SOUTHERN-CALIFORNIA
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7FlushingLineNewYorkCity/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsiaticcommunicationsPhotography/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlueLineLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalTransitPhotographers/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldLinePasadenaLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLineLosAngelesMTA/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GreyhoundBusRiders/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MassTransitCommentary/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MetroloinkCommuterTrains/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RedLineSubwayLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RedLineSubwayLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinishandCompleteThe710LongBeachFreeway/
http://naphotos.nerail.org/show/?
order=byposter&page=1&key=salaamallah
or look at my shots on this page
http://naphotos.nerail.org/bycontributor/
I'll post some of my favorites.
Great film nonetheless, but No LoV's there ...
Always guaranteed to get a reply from one or the either. Just hafta watch out for Redbirds and Arnines. ;-D
The HO gauge freight train is offered by Hawthorne Village of Niles IL.
The $199.00 plus $16.00 shipping price includes an F-7 A & B unit, a tank car, a boxcar and a caboose as well as a hardwood display base and brass nameplate.
The price is too high, but this is sure an attractive looking train set.
Brighton Beach Bob, are you ordering one?
I've ridden the subway at extreme late hours, and found that while in theory having both trains run local should decrease headways, in practice it ends up Train-2mins-Train-18mins.... at least on the Queens Blvd local with the E/G. The F is surprisingly well patronized late at night, even though it's express...
also the #2 ran express until a few years ago at night.
What about people going to the Bronx, the #2 would get then there quicker, plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
the #4 can run local after 1:30-2:00
Not the ones coming from 86th, 79th, 66th, 59th, 50th, 28th, 23rd, 18th, Christopher, Houston, Canal, and Franklin. Running the 2 local saves them time.
Perhaps safety is the reason the change was made. It's a lot safer to wait on a train for up to 8 extra minutes than to wait on a platform for up to 20.
plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
If saving money were the only criterion, the 2 would run in two segments, one from 96th up and one from Chambers down. That both the 1 and 2 run between 96th and Chambers indicates that one of the considerations is serving passengers. At late night headways, how are passengers better served, with one local and one express or with two locals? Certainly with two locals, especially given the late night ridership at some of the local stations in question.
David, have you ridden late nights recently, with the #3 running express?
No, I haven't ridden the late night 3 any of the four nights it's run. Why do you ask? (I never said it should have run local -- ten-minute late night headways are adequate.)
Why should we forget the people who live in Manhattan?
And what about the people who live in the Bronx who are coming from local stops? You may lose 4 minutes if you're coming from Times Square, but from 50th you gain 8-9 minutes on average (and possibly as much as 18-19 minutes, if your 1 just misses a connection with the 2 at 72nd).
also the #2 ran express until a few years ago at night.
What about people going to the Bronx, the #2 would get then there quicker, plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
the #4 can run local after 1:30-2:00
also the D is still express 24/7, Queens Blvd has night express service
One late night Concourse rider here has stated that he doesn't want the late night D to run local not because of the extra time but because he wants to sleep on the train and the door chimes would keep him awake. In a transit system (as opposed to a hotel), where Concourse riders don't pay more than CPW local riders (in fact, they pay less per mile, on average), should that be even a minor concern?
Most weekends, there are two expresses and one local on CPW. While the A generates reasonable crowds, the D is invariably much emptier than the C. This past weekend, there was one express and one local on CPW, and that one local was more frequent and less erratic than the usual one. Guess what: while the D express was more crowded than usual, it was still less crowded than the A local. I have seen some crowded D's on weekends: specifically, those weekends that the C runs express and the D runs local.
I have emailed NYCT with the suggestion that the B local, not the D express, be the full-time service, with the D filling in as a special weekday express. (Another advantage of that naming scheme is that the D would go back to the Brighton and the B would go back to the West End.) If you agree (either because you live in the area and you think there should be better service on CPW, or because you don't live in the area but you simply agree that it would make sense), please write to NYCT. Based on the facts, the CPW local-express balance is skewed nights and weekends; the only reason it remains is that Concourse passengers begin yelling and screaming whenever someone suggests that their service run local at some times (watch, you'll see it in response to this post) while Upper West Siders have been trained to put up with inadequate service.
You bring up an intereaing point up here. While it would probably make sense to make the CPW local every 10 minutes instead of 20, it seems like they don't need the extra headway time on the local so that's why it is probably an express. Now, would people "accept" the B being the full time line over the D [since the D was always the full time line there], I know it sounds minor but think about it. While you plan makes sense, it seems like the MTA's plans are final on the case of routing the D via West End and B via Brighton [so the D keeps 24/7 service].
2 to 3 extra minutes travel time would be a small price to pay for up to a 20 minute wait, AND the ride through the Rathole on the W (next year, it's the N) because both the Q and W late night trains are schedule to meet at Dekalb Ave. No additional services are warranted in lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn, one line will just do.
I would think their preference depends on where they're coming from or where they're going.
The MTA would save money if it ran fewer trains, not less trains, and they certainly don't make any money if people don't ride the trains.
The 4 already runs local at night (though I have heard that some 4s do not even though they are susposed to).
The D is express 24/7 but it probably should be a local at night, especially once it returns to Brooklyn. Queens Boulevard has late night express service for two reasons. One is because the E and G are already making local stops. The second is that if the F ran local along with the E and G late at night, people would start asking "Why can't the F run local all the time?"
I would run the 4 express 24/7 and the 6 to from South Ferry at nights
fewer and less are the same thing, taking away a few trains, which is what an EXP run would do to the 2 and 4 lines.
The 3 and 5 only run at night(in Manhattan) in special cases(although the #3 Shuttle can run again from 96 St or 135th Street and the #5 Shuttle could start at 149th GC-Mott Avenue with some track modifications), like 1998
P.S. Do you know if the #5 ran local or express during Lenox Rehabilitation #5 241 St - Bowling Green?
It wouldn't make any sence to run the 3 and 5 at nights exept for shuttle service. I belive the 6 should end at 125 street at nights and have special 4 trains make express stops.
P.S. Do you know if the #5 ran local or express during Lenox Rehabilitation #5 241 St - Bowling Green?
The 5 ran local from Flatbush Avenue to Franklin avenue, express from Franklin Avenue to Nevins street, then took ovr the 2 route (Peak direction only) Until 149 Street, then both trains go their own way.
Also, the 5 the great one is talking about ran local in the Bronx and Express in Manhattan but only ran during the daytime hours on the weekends. It did NOT run late nights.
the #5 did run WEEKEND nights it was a G.O.(so I heard) 241 St - Bowling Green
Why should the 6 go to South Ferry late at night and run the 4 express? What happens if you want to go from say 23rd Street to 167th Street and they miss the 4 at 42nd? Their trip just got to be 20 minutes longer because of an uncessecary transfer. Also, for anyone going between local stops, why should they have to wait up to 20 minutes?
Fewer and less are not the same thing or else it would not be gramatically incorrect to say "There should be less trains" or whatever it is you said.
Shoot. These are the breaks. And this has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum. But I'll jump into it again. Why "f" with a damn good infrastructure design philosophy? That is, this is a multi-track rail transit system. Due to the high density of the territory covered, it was decided to (ideally, anyway) implement the local/express system whereupon dedicated routes traverse multiple parallel r.o.w.s. Why should the operations ignore this implicit design factor even late at night? For the rest of the country having a 20 minute headway at three in the morning is the stuff of fantasy. I feel we the riding public should accomodate the system as it is, not seek to degrade the service levels by eliminating express trains. IOW, expect to have to undergo longer waits for trains after midnight! At least they're running.
Or, try to move closer to the express stops. Everything has a price. What's that, you'd rather live on a less busy street? Fine. But now "you" want to make me, by my decision to locate nearer the express stop, LOSE this express service so "you" can endure a shorter wait for a train in the off hours. It's like having your cake and eating it too. Gee, thanks.
BTW, I'm saying this realizing how high the population density is along the Lex and Seventh Ave trains above midtown, esp. along Broadway. I still stick to my guns on this though. It seems the "obvious" solution for that is more local service. BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE EXPRESS SERVICE.
Many things were better back then, the first time the #4 ran local at night the #6 was reduced to a shuttle
the #8(3rd Avenue thru express) even went to 241 Street
Athens needs it badly, with all the choking pollution Athenians have to put up with (that is also turning their ancient treasures into dust).
It’s great to see that the system has tripled in size and they have new rolling stock.
Athens badly needs more underground transport: the streets have to be even more clogged than when I was there last, even with the even number/odd number restrictions on coming into the center.
John
Unfortunately, their site is unviewable with my old browser on this PC. I will check it out later.
It is good to see that they are modernizing the city. Now if they could just complete the removal of those old falling down buildings on that hill (they could crush and recycle the stone for road building), they could put in a nice new subdivision there. :-)
Tom
Other than the home page I was unable to see anything but the terms and conditions for use. How does one enter the site?
Tom
Hot Damn! The second post I've ever seen here that was genuinely funny. You clever clever dawg you.
Are you sure? I don't go there often, but as I remember it (correct me if I'm wrong):
Going to Boston, the train is going west over the bridge.
The Astoria line is south of the bridge.
Thus, the train is moving to the west. The right side of the train is facing north, and the left side is facing south. So you'd want to be on the left side.
PS: If i ever come to NYC i'm trying to find the
right tower and make some pics, cos i'm working as a train
driver and know of the danger on tracks.
You're, of course, kidding us. Aren't you? Hell, I'm working as a computer driver myself...
www.et420-online.de (it's till now only german - but there is all about
the train i drive most)
To learn about the railway signals i see on work go:
www.stellwerke.de (german and english) or
http://www.ccrc.wustl.edu/~jpgs/transport/rail/signal/signal.html
This is, why i much about the danger in tracks. If i'm there, i hope
they have no third rail with power on it.
There are "sandwich" or resiliant wheels which have been around for years - the PCC car is a prime example, although it wouldn't surprise me if the technology even preceded that. They are not as durable as conventional wheels; how much less so than standard steel wheels I don't know, but I would presume by an appreciable amount or they would be in much more common usage than they are.
The only Canadian equipment using resiliant wheels that I'm aware of are the CLRVs in Toronto, although some of the light rail systems may use them. Of course, there IS the rubber-tired Montréal subway, but even that has some form of steel guide wheel inside the load-bearing tires. Surely the politician isn't that crazy... or is he? In any event, it's political grandstanding... sounds good to the voters who don't know any better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't have any idea what the plastic wheels could be, though, and I don't think they're a reference to resilient wheels, either.
-Robert King
They are also on the equipment at San Diego trolley as well. They have a stack of a thousand or so of them int he back corner of their shop -- my contact there said they "got a good deal on a big quantity" so they too k Siemens up on it and stockpiled.
Later that day, with many of the same passengers still trying to get south of Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge, I came down to find a J sitting on the downtown "local" track (thru to Fulton/Broad). It was sitting with the front headlights off and taillights on. People all over the station, all the way from the 4/5/6 platform through the mezzaine to the J platform, were all standing and talking and confused and angry about this J that wasn't supposed to be here, and where was the R? So they eventually decided to send it down to Broad St and told everyone wanting Brooklyn to transfer at Fulton for the 2/3 (nobody listened, of course). It ran through to Fulton where only half the people needing Brooklyn actually got off, then went to Broad and emptied. They changed ends and tried to pull out the other way (somehow dumping the train twice in the process) but were stuck because the next R was right behind and had keyed by the signal and was sitting in the block where the switch was. So they changed ends again and pulled into the Broad relay, never to be seen again. Next came two R's back-to back and packed with people. Then I crossed over and waited 20 minutes for the next R northbound, and changed at Essex for a J.
While passing Marcy Ave and the Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, I saw at least 3 firetrucks and/or other emergency vehicles parked in the bus terminal, blocking the buses. At Myrtle/Bway and at Central/Bway I also heard more sirens headed in that direction. This was at about 9 PM. Anybody know what happened? (Maybe I should post this last part on Bustalk?)
Wrong Track at Chambers
End of the Line
The Switch and Homeball on the Relay Track
Approaching Chambers N/B on Wrong Track
Entering Chambers N/B on Wrong Track
Express to Canal, Pissed-off Passengers
".....Closed up, and then I went back to the RFW to see us go down to the relay track for J trains. We pulled up to the bumper block and the marker, T/O turned the headlights off, and then set off (along with myself and another railfan) for the opposite end. The passengers were complaining about the A/C as he walked by (the next car is empty and had working A/C, why the hell didn't they move back?). We went to the other end and were given the lineup.....
Sounds like Dtrain, as well as a whole train of passengers was on that train, so it does seems like a whole train of passengers "relayed", and not just DTrain on it?
Duuuuuude... you think the C/R dumped the back half of train before closing up?
Lest just all shaddap about this... we already said TOO MUCH last evening.
Paul, I see where your coming from BUT you have to remember that there was a whole lot of people on the train so you can't really blame DTrain. Anybody could make a complaint on the screw up but I think its best to stop here.
If some of you can call a "time out" to your panicking long enough to read this:
1) The incident was in full vierw of lots of people with varying degrees of knowledge
2) Yes, assume supervision knows about it
3) if anything really bad happens to the crew (above and beyond reason), it will have already happened, or it's happening now.
Nobody has to discuss details they're uncomfortable with, especially if their lawyers have told them not to. But this is an open forum, and "shushing" people here is inappropriate. An open discussion of this kind of thing can be illuminating both to TA workers and to the railbuffs.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
I know it isn't my place, I stopped MYSELF so people won't try and jump down on my ass for saying "sensitive" comments.
Nobody has to discuss details they're uncomfortable with, especially if their lawyers have told them not to. But this is an open forum, and "shushing" people here is inappropriate. An open discussion of this kind of thing can be illuminating both to TA workers and to the railbuffs.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
That's wonderful. Perhaps they have taken a good look at the many, many great ideas for service improvements offered in past posts on this board, and for suggestions to celebrate the subway's 100th birthday, and will seriously consider them in the future. It would be nice to see something good come from this monitoring instead of solely using it to "bang in" employees.
--Mark
As a former "management type" in grade 21/24 land, I can ASSURE you, that writing the BEST powerpoint presentation for the "study group" was everything. Now that the drag queens of Christopher street are gone and can no longer entertain us, we're STUCK with wiglets and adminiswigs. HEY KIDS, LET'S PUT ON A SHOW. :)
The *REALITY* that Unca Selkirk has learned since the MTA is that "IF it works, *DO* it ... if it DOESN'T, *STOP!!!!*" ... simple enough,no?
NOT for the phucks you people keep phucking SELECTING (after all, "ELECTED" requires WINNING an election, not "Daddy's court and phuck the voters." :(
NIGHTY!!! I've had enough of SUNDAY, I go sleep ...
Jimmy :)
Did you forget about Queens?
--Mark
That's not enough for any suits to identify those who made mistakes.
Sure.... if it was the ONLY misalignment of the day...
Being that there were others, the TOWER brahs weren't exactly clean eyed.
I've SEEN recent GO's prior to the "clampett-down" on the Paturkey Farm. After all, if the whistleblowers are lined up and shot, then our republican royalty can't be shown to be a bit threadbare in the emperor's fine robes. But I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY on the railroad knew where to put those @!%^*%$@ trains. Except for the genius who wrote it all up and was ABSENT on the day of the ... ummm ... subway carnage.
Not exactly, Que sera, sera.
Unfortunately this isn't the TA attitude. There are many things that "happen" in the TA I feel should be overlooked as they're minor. A wrong route, I dunno about that one. It inconveniences customers.
However on my list of things that shouldn't be treated as greatly as they are:
* Hitting a signal:
Yeah, that's bad. But if there is not train in the preceeding 4 or 5 blocks, why make a major deal out of it. Reinstruction at most. If it happens often then the TA needs to recognize the T/O as possible liability. But one and rare offense shouldn't be handled as it is. A T/O faces disciplinary action the same if here is no train ahead as if there were a train 2 blocks ahead.
* Hitting a home signal:
See above. Also, if the switch is already in favor of the train which overran the signal, again, reinstruction.
* Hitting a customer with the doors:
Yeah, its bad too, but many times a customer runs for those doors and C/Rs reaction times aren't perfect... should they be penalized for that? Its happened.
I didn't mean to go off on a tangent here, but I wanted to give a few examples of how the TA does not see things as just "happening" and does not brush them off.
Plus in railroads running a stop-n-stay signal = termination, so anything other than that is considered lenient...
Taking a wrong lineup is much less serious than the above, as it does not create a dangerous situation, just an annoying one.
I *AGREE* with the sentiment. NOBODY working the rails has EVER told you to not TALK about it, but DOCUMENTING car numbers, time of day, location and other things *WILL* be charged against crews. We didn't have INTERNET back in 1970, but rest assured, I got called on the carpet SEVERAL times on the basis of "customer complaint" ... and yeah, they really called it back then. This sickoid "customer" nonsense has been around since RONAN. ONLY those above M-1 grade actually BELIEVE that horsechit.
The MTA *was*, and as I see from my own experience along with that PREVIOUSLY practiced by others indicated that the VAST majority of folks on, in and around the railroad are doing their DAMNDEST to make it work, and management was acting like a bunch of neanderthals, going after people for the DUMBEST of things, making decisions that resulted in printed GO's that GHANDI couldn't decipher, much less those in a tower sitting there and saying "HUH!?!?!? There ain't no switch that goes THERE!" For the few with cojones, TELL me I lie. No, DON'T ... "fair hearing" ... :(
LEMME put it THIS way ... can ANYONE here tell me when TRAIN DUDE was last spotted? Some of you loved him, others hated him, but I *ENJOYED* him ... IMMENSELY! Because he gave out REAL numbers, NOT Stan Fischler's, and he had his FACTS straight when it came to trains. Politically, I was sincerely concerned that the NEXT "industrial area where a police incident" might have occurred is HIS own barn, with Dude Barricaded behind 1000 gallons of TA monkey oil out on the wheel track. Heh. But WHERE'S TRAIN DUDE?!?!?!
I'll tell ya ... the ***SAME*** place that every OTHER MTA employee who used to share juicy tidbits with us here, would let us get a shot of the speed in the cab, or "preflight" peeks into a cab on camera so we could "see" what's going on there in the broom closet. We got spooky pictures of WEIRDARSED equipment out behind the barn on track 63, photos of the newest trains before ANYONE saw them, photos of WRECKS, all SORTS of stuff.
Has anyone NOTICED any of that MISSING lately?
Republican times. Up against the wall, mothersticker - this is a phuckup. And you wonder why CREWS don't want flash cameras? =(
The MTA's gone NUTS, just like the morons who work in (TERRORISTS, PLEASE NOTE! TAKE OUT *THIS* BUILDING and EVERYBODY will convert to Islam) The "Erastus Corning Tower Building" in Smallbany. Nobody's ever heard of it, Al Jazeera will not know HOW to pronounce it, but take out NYS, they'd be doing *ALL* of us a favor. Not going to happen, they'd be making us DANCE in the streeets."
AH, but to the INHABITANTS of the "Tower Building," (Brits, GO AWAY! heh) they've EACH spent about $5K per capita on "personal gas masks, PARACHUTES (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA), and other right-wing nonsense that would have done them JUST as much good in a "NUKULAR" war ..
MORONS ... but the's the rules, and KNOWING how independent DUDE was, he'd take ***NO*** chit from anyone. Looks like our "Shrub and friends" has even stifled the PENULTIMATE republican.
Still proud to be a nazi, kids? They phucked TRAIN DUDE?!?!?!? :(
**PLEASE** think about it! WHere *IS* he? GUANTANAMO for being a "suspicious person?" BEING a registered member of ze fazzerland buys you NOTHING. EVEN IF you kick in more than COORS.
*I* WANNA know where TRAIN DUDE is ... corpus delicti, TA! :*(
Arti
who post here. Their opinions are as valid as anyone's at the TA, but we're NOT getting a representative mix of opinions. I'm not dismissing it, but also don't read too much into it.
Reread his post. IINM, DTrain was given no special privelige. He was just another passenger on a train FULL of passengers, so how can that be a problem?
It's bad enough that the T/O took a wrong lineup, but the resulting cover-up which was put up WITH PHOTOS NONETHELESS, will result in way more than reprimands. Nowadays, this is grounds for termination.
The photo of the yellow over yellow lineup just north of Chambers could've been taken from a J train. The relay photos mean that Dtrain22 snuck aboard a J train that was relaying.
The photo of an R train on J4 can be explained in any number of ways. But first, I'd like to know where all the people are. Dtrain states that the train was "packed", yet I see no sign of a packed subway car. We all know what a packed subway car looks like. Some passengers should be visible through the storm door window if the train was as packed as Dtrain22 states. Anyone who knows subways, knows that if a s/b R arrived on J4, the T/O would've been bombarded by passengers with questions from the "on" side. Look at his picture. There's no one around. And let's say this R train did take a wrong lineup, don't you think one of the many platform C/R's assigned to Chambers for the GO would've told the C/R on that train that something was wrong, before going into the relay?
My guess is that Dtrain22 took a photo of an R train that was out-of-service, and relaying from J4 then back up to the J3 or J1 LU positions, or the train itself was simply rerouted for some reason. Dtrain22 states that he later saw emergency personnel near Marcy. It's possible that s/b J trains were turned for a short time, and an R was sent through to provide service in the n/b direction.
There are just too many conveniences. Dtrain22, who has posted about 200 messages on this board in the last few weeks, just happened to be on this wrong route R train, with his camera ready to take a picture of the yellow over yellow? I'm not buying it.
But mebbe the pic in question was taken AT THE POINT WHEN HE DEBOARDED
-JUST BEFORE- Fulton was announced to be the next stop.
(so the train was less full prior to the announcement)
What I do find baffling is how "4 line passengers waiting for this R"
are NOT VISIBLE on the blurry image of the train re-entering CHAMBERS...
Moreso, how the train continued to lurch NB with PASSENGERS aboard..
You'd think a TSS along the way (or C/R) would have due sensibility
to DUMP the train of SB passengers (knowing the train was to continue NB) to the Willy B.
Maybe there's more detail to the pics than he put in the writeon..
"The T/O got on the radio and mumbled something, then we proceeded over the switch into Chambers ..."
I'd guess from the hear-se that the lineup WAS challenged and mother tested and approved. All conversation is taped, should be an interesting "fair hearing" now that it's surfaced here. Alas, we'll probably never know the outcome.
You become a TO in 1980 get broken in, pick the R in 1982 you are still qualified 20+ years later for all the other lines.
When you do the garbage train you do all kinds of weird moves in places you would never imagine. You boss is a Stations Dept supervisor who gives you the moves and has likely never touched a train.
I had never seen second ave in detail before my first V trip. It was a matter of faith that what goes south must be able to go back north.
Even challanging the lineup is NOT a guarantee of no consequences unless Control OK's it. They may still have to pee in a cup and be up for discipline, it really depends on who is around.
"The buck stops here" seems to be running express only. :(
It's a shame that NYCT is the least modern of all the major operaters in the US. Read a prinction U study online this morning comparing major US operators operations
Sure, why not? NYC needs more unemployed.
He said the T/O mumbled. May not have been a challenge.
If the T/O got on the radio at all (assuming the earwitness testimony is valid) I'd bet, having been there myself, WHY they reached for Mr. Push to Talk. I'm sure the answer's on the biggie dictaphone box at control. Just sorry to hear that management is quite aware of it if they weren't already.
They USED to put a wiglet on for GO's just in case something went sideways. You know ... the old channel 5 gambit? "It's 10:00, do you know where your R train is?" :)
They USED to give GO TW/Os too, but lately they've been cutting back. So the regular TW/O must run the normal railroad, run the GO and in many cases clock trains.
Then again, it's a weekend. Wiglets don't work those. Messes up their tee-off time.
They're not unnecessary. The TA needs several in case one of them misses an hourly screwing up, one of the other 100 in the room will catch it. :-P
One of the things that worked wonders in Albany during the Cuomo years was the local newspaper would do "random audits" in the office buildings, doing headcounts, catching people doing nothing and then printing it all up. Of course the solution was to lock the doors. :)
One question: is Chambers interlocking controlled by Broad or Essex? If it's controlled by the same people as Essex it should've been OBVIOUS that was an R coming out and not a J, and for that matter there was a J right in front of us.
Arti
Alot of us pass up your questions when we get mad at the stuff you post.
A stupid decision on your part. You cut off your own nose to spite your face.
Arti
I'd have sent you this message privately, but you don't provide an e-mail address.
subfan
Arti
subfan
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
When the TO radioed for help the railfan just did not hear it the TO 'mumbled'. Now in theory it gives someone else an out at the expense of the TO who did try to do something.
There are at least 2 more things in that account that are a problem but somewhat subtle and for the sake of the crew I will not get into them.
Arti
On the other hand, I have written to TA and LIRR management on a number of occasions (and heard back!) about very fine, excellent work I have witnessed and wanted to offer praise about.
I'm short on sleep. I meant "conscience" Maybe I mixed it up with cous-cous (I just had dinner).
Arti
Arti
Arti
I think you guys (Jersy Mike excepted) needs Train Dude postings more than he needs yours.
At least 3 people here that can keep their mouths shut had the FULL Manhattan Bridge stuff months before you did. I am not even sure you guys have all the stuff.
It's not really a bribe. When they started posting employee screwups or embellished stories with details I warned people that employees wold stop posting stuff. It has happened and it is your loss not mine. Part of it is you guys may not really know who works for the MTA or on vintage equipment and who is not. In the last year there has been a huge dropoff in postings by employees. Part of it is the lack of support that they feel here. If they do not post you also don't find out about stuff in the pipe. Sources like ERA are good but make errors about the current goings on.
It was made very clear to us that this board was being monitored by management and some people felt it wasn't worth jeopardizing their employment. I don't think "stupid railfan comments" was the primary reason for the dropoff.
--Mark
Agreed. They didn't want to get in trouble for posting things that would possibly get them fired, maybe some of the railfans are too ingorant to realize that.
Mark Feinman's reply is on the mark. Any "juicy tidbits" posted here constitutes material Subtalkers are not always entitled to. This is a public site, and people must post with that in mind. We haven't "lost" anything because what was lost wasn't ours to begin with.
And the other reason that all types of posters are leaving is the flamage going on in other parts of this thread.
The T/O misidentified the signal aspect, the C/R should know that the two middle tracks at Chambers are dead ends and should've discharged the entire train.
A lot of problems that the crew is a fault.
RULE ONE if you're on the iron and you see a lineup that doesn't belong ... you get on the horn immediately (original posted indicated that this DID happen) and say "yo, what's with the layup lineup?" ... if they TELL you it's approved, then you take it. That's what the Dictaphone on the receiver rack is for - to bear final witness to what REALLY happened.
But GEEZ, is EVERYBODY here a freaking republican? Blame it on the lowest paid people when something goes wrong? What about all those WIGS? Don't mind me, but I have personal experience in "the motorman is ALWAYS wrong, that's why *WE* get paid the big bucks to tell you PRECISELY where to cram your damned train. :(
They are not taught them in school car and unlike foamers do not ride up front. Errors like going up 6th ave instead of 8th they are responsible and should be but stuff like this is a bit unfair for a c/r to get banged for.
Besides, by the time the C/R realizes which lineup the T/O took, its too late.
It's not too late to announce "last stop" rather than "Fulton next." Better to dump them at Chambers and make them wait for the next train than to carry them through a relay, no?
No, the 'new' track maps they gave me two months ago are pre-july 2001.
They are trying to add fuzzy reponsibilities to the titles like watching out for dogs and helping the handicapped and removing train related ones like how to overcome breakdowns.
I would have drooled all over the tracks! But that doesn't mean that passengers who are trying to get to Brooklyn should be taken around in circles. (Okay, fine, not circles. The circles are over at City Hall.)
I was also surprised to hear you talk about the people that buy 1-2 fares at a time. When I made the same suggestion that you did you went on a rant about being a poor grad student and people not having enough money to scrape up the discount. I guess you graduated and it's let them eat cake.
Did I really say that? I find it hard to believe I ever complained about bulk discounts.
For the record, yes, I've graduated, and I've been looking for a job ever since. I never buy less than $10 in fares at a time, since I'd much rather pay $1.67 than $2.00 per ride.
BTW, why was it that it couldn't go back n/b via the switch north of Broad?
See http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/Douglas/laramie05.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/Douglas/laramie05.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/laramie.html
The house that a rail fan, and only a rail fan could love can be seen in the movie "The Ladykillers" starring Alec Guiness, Herbert Lom and Peter Sellers. Here is the house (a movie set) and the view from the rear of the house.
Tom
Subtalker and Forgotten NY host Paul Matus is quoted in the Sunday NYTimes article on lovers' lanes, a subject your webmaster has too little knowledge about since starting...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well duuuh, I wonder why!?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In NYC we call that submarine race watching ! But you need to keep the "long conversations" down so you don't miss anything ;-)
I wonder how many times the Far Rock branch of the A line late at night would be a mini-respite for a couple. After all, it's a good six minutes from Howard Beach to Broad Channel.
The train would have to be using R-44's. R-38's wouldn't work.
Jay Su Kris To!
"Since I had not pad ..." What in the name of Christ is that supposed to mean?
Jimmy
You mean she was actually wearing it? :0)
To be honest, this stunt was planned.
--Mark
Is THAT a MAGLite, or is your battery overcharged? (nah, won't go into "she PEES standing up") ... heh. Seen it all on NYPD though, I'll bet. My buddies back at the 52 did. :)
Please don't!
Plumb beach was my favorite spot. Close to home. My game was to pull out a blanket, a bottle wine and go for a walk on the beach.
The secound parking lot closer to the kings plaza exit was completly closed replaced by tree's and grass in the mid 1990's
Virtually all the good spots are gone. The remaining one's have peepers.
Pre first WTC bombing the best spots were
1)under the varrazono off ramp
2) Floyd bennit feild
3) Fort Tilden in the rockaways(the toll sucked. I only took the difficult to unpants there. The National parks police patrol chases anyone parked
4)Plumb beach - both parking lot and beach
5)the park next to the VA hospitol in Bay ridge - they blocked off the path. Used to park by the far fence near the belt parkway
6)On the grass in front of the parking lot between varrazano bridge and 14th ave exit.
I feel bad for young lovers today. unless you have an apartment, it's more difficult to hook up
The beach was always the best place to go. Pluumb beach was closed at night apparently because people were complaining about prostitutes and others doing the naughty in the parking lot. I was perfectly happy with the unrenovated plumb beach parking lot. the beach is still dirty. Thankfully it look nice at night
Jimmy
--Mark
Is there anyone here familiar enough with the parts of the New York subway and elevated systems that would know where all of the flat junctions used to be but are no longer existing?
I have to assume there were once many more than at present--for instance, at Chatham Junction between the 2nd and 3rd Av els. Surely there must be some people here who are interested in historical track configuration.
If you know about historical cases of crossing movements in the same direction, not at junctions per se with conflicting moves in opposite directions, that would be interesting as well.
I'm sure there were many more, but I'm only 15 and I'm not an expert. :)
Don't use age as an excuse. Your lack of frequent orbital miles doesn't preclude you from doing or learning anything, except as prohibited by law.
Culver and 5th Avenue L (36/5)
5th Avenue L/Myrtle
Myrtle/Lex/5 and Fulton access to Brooklyn Bridge
Myrtle and Park Avenue Ls at Grand
Myrtle and Lexington Ls at Grand
Lexington and Broadway L
Broadway L and Chestnut incline to LIRR
Broadway L ramp on Crescent Street to surface
Broadway Ferry and Williamsburg Bridge west of Broadway/Marcy
Fulton and Broadway Ls at (current) Broadway Junction
Fulton and Canarsie near Pitkin (replaced, now Fulton demolished)
North of Chambers for Manhattan Bridge loop access (crossing still there, but service gone)
Brighton and Fulton at Franklin Avenue
Race Track Branch from Brighton (replaced, now branch gone)
Connections between Brighton and Manhattan Beach Rwy--at different times, near Avenue I, and two different connections (NW-SE, NE-SW at Sheepshead Bay)
Sea Beach/West End north of Coney Island Creek
Sea Beach/West End at Bath Junction (pre-elevation)
West End/Culver at 9th Avenue (pre-elevation)
Brighton/Culver at Culver Depot (pre-elevation)
Brighton/Culver at W8 (elevated)
Would you count Franklin Shuttle crossing over south of Prospect Park?
I'm sure if I missed any, soneone will call me out in it. :)
Thanks very much for the extensive reply. There were more than I thought. It must have been a challenge to keep the headways regular and trains on time.
Fytton.
-Robert King
Wellington had trams (streetcars) from about 1920, and the system has been converted into trolley-buses which still run. They have been discussed in the newspapers this last week as there was some doubt about their future. The 60 trolley-buses are old and Stagecoach (ugh) who run them have a plan for replacement of twelve per year for five years. They will cost about the same as new diesel buses. There was doubt, though, about who pays for the maintenance of the overhead wires, which is an additional cost that diesels don't have to bear. The city seems willing to carry this cost, so the future seems assured now. They don't run trolleys at weekends a the moment, prsumably because with reduced weekend services they have enough new low-floor accessible diesel buses to cover all the routes operating. I imagine that once the new low-floor trolleys, of which a prototype is in service (I've seen it), enter service they will run all week. On my first trolley-bus ride, the trolleys dewired and the driver had quite a struggle to get them on again.
There is a cable-car funicular, which was originally a San Francisco-type operation with gripmen but was modernised twenty years or so ago. It runs on reserved track up a very steep hill, with two cars, a single track, a passing place at the middle station, and flangeless wheels on the two cars so that the same car always passes on the north track and the other one the south track at the passing place - with the odd result that alternate trips have right-hand and left-hand running at the passing place. There are five stations in all, equally spaced; even though the line is very short the extreme gradient justifies the close spacing. Most passengers go all the way, but the station one stop down from the top is also well used, as it serves the University campus where I work. There is a railfan window, but it is usually taken by children. The line is a tourist attraction, but is also used for "real" travel - it was built about a century ago to open up the area at the top of the hill for residential development.
There are three suburban rail lines each with a basically 30-minute frequency (more in the rush hour). Two are the first sections of main lines out of the city, with catenary-electrified local services for the stretches out to the end of the commuter area. The third, which I rode yesterday, is a single-track branch line (also electrified) with frequent stops and quite a lot of character. The trains are two-car EMUs - off-peak trains are only two cars - which seem quite old, and have railfan windows! The whole operation has a bit of a tramway feel to it, as the stations are unstaffed and the conductor sells tickets, and internally the trains look a bit like trams (with reversible seats). There are eight stations on the branch, of which only two are passing places with two platforms; the offpeak half-hourly service always crosses at one of these, but I assume the peak service uses the second one. The outer terminus has only one platform. At the crossing point, the driver left his cab and walked back through the train while we waited for the one coming the other way to arrive - I'm not sure why, it may have something to do with exchanging tokens - but he left his cab door open and didn't seem to mind that a couple of little boys went into the cab and pretended to drive the train!
Both the cable car and the suburban system have lots of tunnels, as the whole city is very hilly, but (apart from the bottom station of the cable car) stations are all in the open air, so I guess I can't pretend it's a subway!
The transport system seems quite well integrated, in that many bus services connect with the trains at their outer termini and other important suburbs, city buses connect with trains at a transit station alongside the main train station, and bus services do not parallel the train routes. Stations seem in a fair state of repair, despite being unstaffed with the risk of vandalism.
There was a news item the other day that Auckland, the other city in NZ with a suburban rail system, is going to invest millions in upgrading it (very necessary, by all accounts). Initially the work will entail refurbishing stations, but new trains may come later.
Fytton.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/194/metro/Violent_crime_increases_on_MBTA+.shtml
Assaults up by 27% is indeed a big jump.
I don't know the specific stats on Cambridge and South Boston. But that is only part of the Red Line; it also goes through areas like Dorchester, which statistically has had a higher rate of crime. However, I am not sure if the crime on the Red Line comes from one specific area; I simply don't have the stats on that situation. -Nick
frankly, i was not surprised that the crime is up on the mbta. i was more surprised by the fact that crime is down in other parts of boston. in fact, i do not believe that is accurate -- as carter (mbta police chief) said, we are in some very tough economic times, and when there isn't money to go round, people fight for it. last year, just by reading the globe, i can remember at least 5 shootings that had been reported.
the problem with papers like the globe is that ultimately it is written by the middle class for the middle class. so they have a tendency to paint violent crimes in the suburbs as "shocking" while reporting shooting in roxbury, dorchester, or other south side neighborhoods as "yet-another-incident" by citing the last time someone was shot in the vicinity. all they are doing is reinforcing the "reputation" dorchester etc have for being "unsafe", when really the level of crime that is observed there is quite consistent with the population and the mean level of income. the higher the population, the more crime, but the "crime per capita" actually decreases. so even though there is more crime, you are less likely to get mugged because, well, there are more people for the mugger to choose from.
there have been many high profile violent crime incidents in the allegedly "suburban" or "safe" areas in the boston metro area over the past 2 years. molly bish (rape and murder), a shooting in porter sq, a shooting at friend st., and a serial rapist in north end comes to mind. it's not that these areas are safe, it is just that those areas have people with more money and they consider themselves safer. somehow, newspapers fall for that trap too, probably because those who write live in those "safe" areas and they don't want to admit they are just likely to be shot as someone living in the inner urban neighbourhoods.
AEM7
dorchester, MA
NOW, REPEAT AFTER ME
OSAMA IS DEAD. WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF.
This is not all that different from the catholic crusaders
Top Ten Bush Excuses For Not Finding WMD's
---------------------------------------------------
10. "We've only looked through 99% of the country"
9. "We spent entire budget making those playing cards"
8. "Containers are labeled in some crazy language"
7. "They must have been stolen by some of them evil X-Men mutants"
6. "Did I say Iraq has weapons of mass destruction? I meant they have goats"
5. "How are we supposed to find weapons of mass destruction when we can't even find Cheney?"
4. "Still screwed up because of Daylight Savings Time"
3. "When you're trying to find something, it's always in the last place you look, am I right, people?"
2. "Let's face it -- I ain't exactly a genius"
1. "Geraldo took them"
(well, I'm off to a Carribean vacation and some Cuban cigars)
You got Dave's Top Ten. He is a god! :-P
We don't know this for sure
"WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF."
I agree; we just need to be vigilant in some areas. However, I don't know if stopping a railfan or tourist taking photos of the subway should be apart of this vigilant effort. -Nick
If only you would pitch this thread to the MTA folks and not to us
TRANSIT THEMED folks....
Back to the homeballs and WDs.. please.
"WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF"
John
(Someone on the other platform was playing a boom box at full volume. I'm surprised nobody in the police station upstairs heard it. More likely, nobody cared. It's nice to know that tickets are being issued for videoing the 7 line but not for disturbing hundreds of passengers.)
After about 20 minutes of nothing (no trains or announcements), a SB train finally arrived. It was signed for Bedford-Nostrand and the lights were all on, but it sped through the station without stopping.
About 5 minutes later, we finally got an announcement: due to a stalled train, G service in both directions was suspended, and the S/A was authorized to distribute block tickets. (That surprised me right there, since the L was running, and general policy AIUI is only to distribute block tickets if there's no train service running in any direction at all from the station.) The S/A was unfamiliar with the bus routes in the area and only had Queens bus maps. (The only map on the wall was a subway map.)
I hung around a while longer. An L train came in and passengers streamed off to the G. I encountered a fellow passenger, arguing with a transit worker that the platforms were crowded again and that somebody should make another announcement. The transit worker and S/A both insisted than there was an announcement ten minutes earlier and that was sufficient. We both tried to explain to them that everyone who was there for that announcement was gone, and that these were different people on the platforms who hadn't heard any announcement at all, but to no avail. I suggested that the platforms be taped off and was scoffed at in response.
After about 20 minutes, I hopped on an L.
Attention S/A's: You're well aware that your position, at least in its current form, is in jeopardy. Many of you have tried to convince us and others that you perform a valuable, even necessary, service. This incident doesn't help your cause. Some S/A's are apparently unaware of the basic concepts of traffic flow on subway platforms -- in particular, that people come and go at all times.
Where on earth was that light train going, and why couldn't it take passengers?
I don't know when service started up again, but a few hours later I did see a Brooklyn-bound G train at Roosevelt.
Sean
Wheaton Station - longest escalator on the western hemisphere (longest escalator is in Hong Kong)
The "Penguin Rush Hour" mural at the Silver Spring station is pretty cool. here is a link to it:
http://www.homestead.com/silverspringhistory/penguin.html
Wheaton Station: One of the longest escalators in the world.
Now, for a bit of trivia, which station used to have the longest escalator in the world?
I just sent you an e-mail, pls respond off the board. Thanks.
I don’t thing I ever posted the figures I compiled on the long escalators on WMATA so here it is.
Inventory of stations with escalators over 45' 13.71m vertical rise.
A Route Red Line
Dupont Circle (A03)
3 escalators north end surface to in train hall mezzanine.
94’ 5 3/4" 28.79m
3 escalators south end surface to in train hall mezzanine.
84’ 9 1/4" 25.83m
Woodley Zoo Park (A04)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
103' 2 1/2" 31.45m
Cleveland Park (A05)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train
mezzanine.
58' 9 3/8" 17.92m
Van Ness (A06)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
56' 6 1/8" 17.30m
Tenleytown (A07)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
81' 3 1/2" 24.76m
Friendship Heights (A08)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train
hall
mezzanine
65' 10 3/4 20.08m
Bethesda (A09)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
107' 6 1/2" 32.77m
Medical Center (A10)
3 escalators surface to in train hall mezzanine.
100' 11 7/8" 30.78m
B Route Red Line
Wheaton (B10)
3 escalators from surface mezzanine to platform.
115' 5" 35.17m
C Route Blue Orange Lines
Rosslyn (C05)
4 escalators from surface mezzanine to platform.
97' 9 1/4" 29.80m
Pentagon (C07)
*3 escalators from Pentagon Concourse to mezzanine.
59' 3/4" 18.00m
K Route Orange Line
Court House (K01)
**3 escalators surface to in train hall mezzanine
48' 6 1/4" 14.76m
All Stations in deep rock except Court House and Pentagon
Station in cut and cover**
Deepest station in cut and cover*
John
This has been hash over many times on misc.transport.urban-transit. groups.google.com revels some of the discussions.
Are you sure it read "world" and not "hemisphere" That 100m 328’ I recall being quoted as the length in Saint Petersburg Russia is longer then Wheaton Station (B10).
I pulled this from a groups.google.com search.
"Wheaton is 115' vertical, but there are some others around the world
that are much taller (the ones outside the former Soviet Union have
all been built in the 1990's):
377': Ocean Park, Hong Kong; part of the "Hillside Escalator" system
(I believe there are actually three others of similar height
that are part of the Hillside Escalator system)
214': Kiev, Ukraine; Arsenalnaya station
195': St. Petersburg; Ploshchad Lenina station
165': Moscow
138': Kagawa, Japan; Reoma World
130': Portland, Oregon; Washington Park station
When the Rosslyn Metrorail opened in 1979, IIRC the local news stations
reported that it was the second tallest escalator in the world, with the
tallest being in Moscow. However, I don't know if even that claim was
accurate, since I don't know when the Kiev and St. Petersburg escalators
were built."
Note the Hong Kong Hillside Escalator is not a single unit
John
The St Petersburg system dates from the 1940s-1950s.
Right you are. Cody Pfanstiehl WMATA Director of Community Service from 1961 to when he retired in the late 1980s always pointed out when questioned about the longest escalators on WMATA that the longest escalators in the world were in the Soviet Union.
John
John
BTW, have run running up that thing ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also worth checking out is the Anacostia station which has a different design than most metro stations. Check pictures from the DC Metro overview here on nycsubway.org
Yellow Line: Charles R. Fenwick Bridge across Potomac River. Best to do in spring, though. Also of note is the partly underground Huntington station.
Blue Line: Just look at Pentagon. If it's a problem that you can't photograph the station itself... Rosslyn looks just like it! You also get a nice view of DC between Pentagon and Arlington Cemetery. Of course, both Blue and Yellow give you National Airport Station for photos.
Green Line: Check out the new end of the line at Branch Aveue in Silver Hill, MD. Anacostia is about the only deviant from the waffle and arch ceilings designs, worth checking out. Prince George's Plaza station is pretty, and there's the split-level Fort Totten. Oh, and a little station known as L'Enfant Plaza... nice place to get a crossway picture, and a great place to be trampled in rush hour (I was once).
Orange Line: Vienna branch is in the I-66 median (Kinda like SEPTA's Spring Garden station on the Market-Frankford Line, but with more distance) from Vienna to East Falls Church. Underground stations at Ballston, Virginia Square-GMU and Clarendon have no platform pylons, no major change, but worthy of notice. The New Carrollton segment is where the action is. Amtrak's Northeast Corridor trackage (Shared with MARC's Penn Line) runs alongside the Orange trackage, an th undulating tracks give off a "roller coaster" effect.
Red Line: Camera at the ready between Shady Grove and Grosvenor. Scenic stations and area, despite a couple tunnels. There's the escalator at Dupont Circle. The Q Street entrance, I think... They don't call it "The Bowl" for nothing. There's the missing bit of the arch at Farragut North, Metro Center's crossway, Union Station, and of course, that deep hole in the ground called Forest Glen. Just being that far underground is amazing enough.
By the way, in case my handle didn't give it away... I'm from Philly as well. I was born in Wynnefield, so "R6" it is! (Now, it'd be more like "R3", since I'm in Yeadon...)
The "view" from the Blue Line around Arlington Cemetery is not that great during the winter when there is no foliage, you can't see anything really interesting during the summer as a result because of the foliage though it is still a nice run.
Orange Line near New Carrollton has a series of flyovers which are fun to ride at 75 MPH (and at normal speeds as well)
The arch at Farragut ends because of a provision for the inner city expressway or something to that effect. Needless to say, it has never existed. There isn't much to see at Forest Glen since all it has are platforms and elevators, better going to Wheaton which is identical except it has the longest escalator in the system. Forest Glen is too deep for an escalator. Also, Grosvenor is an excellent place for photographs if you exit the system.
Good advice, I do like your comments about taking pics at Grosvenor--Jeremiah and I found that to be true during the last Subtalk DC.
Personally, I kinda like the shot at the Capitol from the Rhode Island Ave. Station and the way the inbound and outbaound tracks split for the Brentwood yard---rather unusual.
Take Care,
Mark
The "inner city expressway" more commonly referred to as the "K Street Freeway" ran under K Street not L Street. The flat ceiling area on the north end of the Farragut North Station (A02) is to accommodate large diameter sewer and water pipes that run along L Street. I have a copy of the finishing contract construction drawings of the station. The drawings clearly show the outline of the K Street Freeway easement on the south end of the station. m80-52.jpg m80-114.jpg
John
Metro Center (A01 C01), point where trainhall vaults cross.
L'Enfant Plaza (D03, F03), upper level widest trainhall vault.
Rosslyn (C05) and or Pentagon (C07), split level platform transfer station. Go to south end of lower level platform in Pentagon and look in to tunnel you well be able to see the bellmouth for future Colombia Pike line.
My favorite non standard subway station Anacostia (F06). Wait, It’s the only non standard subway station.
Dupont Circle (A03), the only station with a 22 coffer precast concrete vault, and north entrance escalators are a must see.
Surface stations must sees, West Hyattsville (E07), Prince George's Plaza (E08), Eisenhower Avenue (C14), Huntington (C15) Rhode Island Avenue (B04) and Arlington Cemetery (C06). Grosvenor (A11) is best seen from the outside.
Best fasted longest ride at speed. D route from Stadium-Armory (D08) to New Carrollton (D13) I call this the rollercoaster. C and J routes from National Airport (C10) to Franconia-Springfield (J03).
John
Though a few times I've found it less clumsy to just throw it in my bag and have the wire coming out, most people probably assume it's a cd player or something...
Hope you like! Chapter 11 Choo Choo, you may got photo of the year 2003, but come 2004, you got competition.
Christopher Rivera
You have a couple of interesting concepts that, given the right lighting (which you didn't have) might come out very well. Keep trying!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
Those are some nice pictures you took. Since when did the M line get the new cars?
Koi
"You can't blame him for a dirty window and poor position of the sun. Railfans, especially amature ones, have a very small set of locations and equipment as well as a severe time constraint."
He said he had 10 hours, he could have spent A LOT more time on each indivisual shot, instead of taking 140+ mundane photos... Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic," not to say they should be.
"They have to make best with what they get and I'd say that these pics are pretty good."
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.) They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
What the heck do you think this is? The Professional Photographers Exchange Group Message Board? You comment only marks you and an elietst snob. While his photos might not be up to your high and mighty standards they are pretty good from a Joe Railfan point of view. From a purely Railfan point of view the things that matter in a photo are, in approximite order of importance, blur, darkness, content, (haze/crispness, brightness, detail), framing and background. Mr. Rivera's photos generally hit the important elements which makes the photos fine from a railfan perspective.
Furthermore, Mr Rivera is clearly trying to be experimental in many of his shots. The sunlight reflected in the face of the Slant R40 stands in contrast to its generally dirty gray and dull appearance. While it might meet mainstream photographic norms, we should not deride Mr. Rivera for striking out on his own. The only comment I would make about 6 is that he should have tried a vertical framing, capturing more of the green station columns and the green vegitation which really contrasts nicely with the front of the R-Slant-40.
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures.
Yes, and now we have an insufficient and spotty photographic record of the Subway system during those time periods. Interested railfans now must spend significant periods of time sorting through old records, websites and ERA gatherings to try to attempt to find some piece of information that stand a good chance of being lost forever due to the low volume of photographic output.
They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I'm amazed at how you can correctly find the lighting for your photographs with your hear rammed so far up your ass. How do you expect to cultivate "good" photographers if every time some newbie posts their photos you tell them that they are crap and should go home? You say that he should upload only "good" photos. Well where does he learn what "good" is before people ever see his work? What, will lightning suddenly hit them and endow his body with supernatural photo-taking powers? People need criticism, both positive and negitive and in both cases it should be constructive. I felt that Mr. Rivera showed a lot of great initiative with the photos he posted here today and I told him so. they are't magizine quality, but he was trying hard and deserved to some positive re-enforcement. The more photos he takes the more his skills will devolop and the better the photos will become.
If you want somewhere to view the cream of the cream of NYC Subway photography go start a Yahoo Group or something. You as moderator can be as selective as you want with what gets posted. In the meantime please don't come on this non-professional, amature forum and trash someone because they dared be creative.
PS: If you were considering comming on the PJ trip please don't let my strong words scare you off, I need everyone I can get and I never let message board disagreements spill too far into the real world.
Ha ha hah hah ha hah hah hah hah hah! Oh man I can't stop laughing! I think Brooklyn1944 once said this stuff about me too. This post should get back at him for all of his a$$inine posts.
No, now I'm just going to insult more. I'm really not very sure how to ram my "hear" up my ass; Not to mention, I never said any of that stuff about you. You just don't like me because you can't take any criticism, which shows what a closed minded idiot you are.
He said he had 10 hours, he could have spent A LOT more time on each indivisual shot, instead of taking 140+ mundane photos... Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic," not to say they should be.
"They have to make best with what they get and I'd say that these pics are pretty good."
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.) They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!"
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH, and most of you just don't want to hear it. You either do it right, or don't do it at all -- thats basically what I was trying to say.
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.)
Yeah, and I'll bet you walked 2 miles to school, up hill both ways, through 3 feet of snow in the scorching hot sun and now with those damn new fangled horseless carriages ANYBODY can crowd up all those places you like to go.
If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I hope you get sucked into the twilight zone and awake in a world where there are no more photos shown at ERA meetings and transit websites only have official publicity stills because the standard is so high nobody ever enters the hobby thus reducing production to zero. You'd be running down the street at the end, hands pressed to your head screaming "Where're all the photos!!! Where're all the photos!!!" and I'd be sitting at home watching you on the Sci FI channel laughing my ass off.
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH,
The truth according to whom? What diety put you in charge of taste? Your brand of truth is about as true as that from the Bush Administration.
Actually the hole three miles were a hill.
"Your brand of truth is about as true as that from the Bush Administration."
Please don't relate me in ANY way shape or form to a Republican president, thats were I draw the line of decency. Just because I'm old doesnt mean I'm a Republican.
"The truth according to whom? What diety put you in charge of taste?"
I knew I should have worded that one differently. I'm not trying to imply that my standard is the standard of photography. I was just trying to say that instead of saying something like "There all great pictures," I give my REAL opinion.
Trains are moving targets. If I spend more than a few seconds on a shot of a train, I'm left with a shot of a track.
Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic,"
I can only speak for myself, but I find the platform-level bit an interesting artistic device. Sure, the execution could use some work, but that's something he can pick up over time.
not to say they should be.
Quite correct. Artistic photography has its place, but so does simple documentary photography. I grew up on the IRT of the 70's and early 80's, and I'd love to see some pictures of the train interiors of that era. You know what? I've found one. That's why I take boring, entirely unartistic shots of train interiors.
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH, and most of you just don't want to hear it. You either do it right, or don't do it at all -- thats basically what I was trying to say.
Actually, no. No one does it right on the first try. It takes time to learn, and the only way to learn is with practice.
Ok, I'm sorry, I was thinking of someone else.
HE ASKED FOR OPINIONS!!!!! Christopher isnt upset at all, and he even said he appreciated the criticism! He asked for opinions/comments, and I gave him my honest opinion.
"If you want somewhere to view the cream of the cream of NYC Subway photography go start a Yahoo Group or something. You as moderator can be as selective as you want with what gets posted. In the meantime please don't come on this non-professional, amature forum and trash someone because they dared be creative."
Again, he asked for opinions. If any of you ever go to a photography class, the teacher would do the SAME THING that I just did. You need CRITISISM to better your work. You guys are just too damn soft and can't take it in the least bit.
"PS: If you were considering comming on the PJ trip please don't let my strong words scare you off, I need everyone I can get and I never let message board disagreements spill too far into the real world."
I wouldn't want to meet you for all the tea in China.
Well I am glad you're being big about it. I hope you imparted that wonderfully positive and grown up attitude to any offspring you might have produced.
:0)
If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I didn't realize we had to be professional photographers to post photos here. And how is a young guy like Chris, or some of the others supposed to be able to afford the "equipment", and they have to start somewhere, and learn what their style will be, or develop the skills. Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc. And in order to learn to get better, they must be posted so others can point out what is good, or what could have been done different for next time.
"Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc"
I was merely responding to Jersey Mikes comment. I was basically saying if your going to do it, do it right.
"Chris, or some of the others supposed to be able to afford the "equipment", and they have to start somewhere, and learn what their style will be, or develop the skills. Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc. And in order to learn to get better, they must be posted so others can point out what is good, or what could have been done different for next time."
I started photography at age twelve, I had a 15 year old Calumet, stand up large format camera and I turned a closet into a darkroom. The only money I had was the money I worked for. I had to start somewhere too. I didn't have an "INTERNET" to post my photos, I knew what turned out good, and I knew what turned out bad; and I think Christopher can see that aswell.
So you admit that your sence of "good" and "bad" is based solely upon your own personal judgement. If that is the case then Chris' photos should be evaluated on HIS own personal judgement and if he feels that these photos are "good" then they are "good".
Post after original post, to Christopher:
"Sorry if wrongly accused (I do it often because I'm an old bitter jerk). Your right, people like me and Anon_e_mouse have the most experience -- we want to see the next generation of photographers have QUALITY! You have interesting techniques, but you need work on lighting and composition... Practice makes perfect."
Great photos, I especially liked the 45th Road one, the way the building shadow gives a gradient on the wall and in the middle of the sign is cool.
And am I insane or was 45th road red last week.... and tan the week before? Who keeps changing the paint colors!
The station was red on Sunday and green on Thursday.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post a link where thumbs are viewable...
These pics take FOREVER to load on my particular unit and slow down the D's.
I'm not the only one barkin.
(And now I'm complaining that your sense of humor is malfunctioning. Perhaps it needs some sleep.)
Buggin' LOL.
Thanks for the tap, David!!
Good for you, spud..
Some of us DONT HAVE 20 minutes to sit around and chew our nails.
I was suggesting text links for the mere fact that we could sit waiting 20 minutes
for a boatload of Rmadillo pics (which can be an offputting wait---
--to someone who doesnt like Rmadillos)...
Whereas TEXT LINKS give us a BETTER fore-warning of WHAT WE will get to see at waiting (and clicking).
(Similar request was made after SMEE when 4753489753489 pics were put
in a SINGLE post, rather than on a clickable album page)...
I praise Rivera's & Weinberg's madtastic efforts and workmanship...
but please, spare us 28.8k dial-uppers among you.
Now whine down, Trains up!
:)
Arriba!
The platforms practically touch the bridge.
I hadn't planned on getting that photo. I wanted to check up on 207th, but when my train switched to the middle track, I figured I'd go for some photos instead.
I don’t think the first two low-level photos worked particularly well: try cropping a lot of the foreground (the boring platform bits) and see if they work better.
John
Wait a sec...where were you when you took that sunset-line pic? I witnessed it at QBP and photographed it at Astoria Boulevard on the B train. Were you on Astoria or on the Flushing Line?
Pic #5 is a little odd...Personally, I would've scrapped it after seeing pic how #6 came out-a little bright, but otherwise fine.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Mark
R-16 at Continental
Now doesn't that just scream "ride me". Now, here was my attempt at duplicating that spectacular shot.
R-46 at Continental
Now, why did the MTA have to go and put that in my way? I tried to find a way to somehow photo around it, but then the angle would be too steep! Now I'm pretty sure that moving the room to be flush with the end of the platform would have salvaged the area, but there appears to be an abandoned facility there... gee, why didn't they just put what's in that room (cleaning supplies) there!
So, does anyone else have an example of this happening, what was once the perfect spot now ruined?
-Robert King
I was planning to duplicate a shot taken in Penn Station in 1955, but I've been told the light and shadows are different now. :-) Let's face it, it is not the spot the picture is taken from that makes the magic. It is what the photographer sees at a given moment and freezes forever to allow others to share in his experience.
Tom
Dave's got A TON of good shots stored up in this here haven.
(OK... waaaaay too much Dew, tonight!)
(These are clickable thumbnails which open up the image at real size):
Any comments or suggestions? be critical if you must.
The 2nd would make a DANDY postcard, brah.
THANKS FOR THE T-H-U-M-B-N-A-I-L-S.
Thanks for thumbing them.
I like the train of CAFs heading to Greenbelt (E10) taken from the inbound platform at Prince George's Plaza (E08) in the late afternoon sun.
The action pic (2), Phil Portlock the staff photographer at WMATA has taken a bunch of pictures very similar to this one to create the very same affect. Some of them were used in various WMATA publications.
John
When the weather is great and you get perfect lighting and good composition, you can get a great picture.
Chaohwa
I am curious about several things.
* What is the ISO of these pictures?
* What are the resolutions of these photos, 2272 x 1704 or 1600 x 1200?
From your website you have a Canon PowerShot S40. Since I also have a Canon PowerShot S40, I would like to know how you set the train photos.
Chaohwa
As for ISO speed, I really don't remember, plus the EXIF data on the pics don't tell me what is. I think it is ISO 50 if I can recall correctly.
All pics are 1024x768
How do I set the train photos? What exactly do you mean?
Bad English for me. :P
As for the ISO display, if you still store your photos on your CompactFlash card, push the DISPLAY bottom and you will see your photo settings in a particular photo.
Chaohwa
For my camera settings, it really depends on what the conditions are. Ideally, you want to shoot with fastest shutter speed possible because if you don't, the train will be blurred. I usually let the camera do the choosing of the shutter speed and apeture opening, mainly b/c the camera seems to almost always pick the right one. rarely does it pick a shutter speed/apeture setting that is wrong for the type of picture I want.
I would use the full manual controls on my camera but that would take too long b/c I would have to readjust my shutter and apeture settings everytime the lighting or scenery changes.
The only time I use full manual is when I am shooting in very low light and the subject in question doesn't move for while so I can take advantage of the slow shutter speed. This is usually when I do not prefer my subject to be blurred.
I use the auto shutter/apeture setting on mine. Unlike the full AUTO mode on my camera, the P mode allows me to adjust white balance, flash intensity and exposure rate
Here are the main pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/Part2/
And the Tower pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Here is the lineup at South Station, two AE trainsets and a private car.
Here is the heartpounding moment as the NJT train emerges at full speed from the North River Tunnel.
Enjoy, Comments are very welcome, both negitive and positive.
Here are the main pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/Part2/
And the Tower pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Here is the lineup at South Station, two AE trainsets and a private car.
Here is the heartpounding moment as the NJT train emerges at full speed from the North River Tunnel.
Enjoy, Comments are very welcome, both negitive and positive.
This was the only picture I found in nycsubway.org taken from the railroad tracks above the Ditmas Blvd. El Station.
Earlier today I was out doing some railfanning around the Philly area (From 30th Street Station: R8 to Norristown, Route 100 to 69th, Route 101 to Media, R3 back to 30th Street) and after almost a year of living in Philly, I finally managed to ride the Route 100 Norristown High-Speed Line for the first time. Route 100 was rather interesting overall, and has some scenic sections to it, but one observation really jumped out at me:
As most of you know, Route 100 uses third rail power. However, the tracks are at grade for several portions of the trip, and there was rarely ever any sort of a fence to keep people off the tracks. The areas along the line are mostly residential, and in many cases the tracks passed within spitting distance of people's back yards, with no fence! Although the third rail is covered and the vast majority of adults would be smart enough to avoid it like a snake, what's to stop some curious kid from getting onto the tracks and sticking a hand or foot in the wrong place when mommy and daddy aren't looking? Aside from the electrical hazard, there's also the fact that the trains move along at a good clip and often have limited visibility due to curves.
As much as I'm generally loathe to side with ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, it seems like this is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen. It certainly woulnd't kill SEPTA to put up some fences before it comes to that, no?
And speaking of death on the tracks, while I was riding the 101 trolley to Media, some idiot in a Grand Prix decided to run a red light and make a sudden left turn in front of the trolley. The operator slammed on the brakes and blew the horn... I'd guess we missed the car by only a couple feet at most, and the motorman almost had a heart attack. If nothing else, the driver of the Grand Prix now probably has permanent hearing damage from the trolley's horn blowing in his face... That thing was friggin' LOUD. What an incredibly stupid thing to do....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Once I was riding the Rt 100 and we had to stop for some teems crossing the tracks. They stepped right over the 3rd Rail like it was no big deal at all. Also, on the MFL at 69th St I saw some kids trying to sneak over to the fare control platform from the non-FC platform and one kid put his hand on the top of the underrunning 3rd rail and vault over it. That insulative cover did its job and nothing happened, but those kids showed that 3rd no respect whatso ever.
It always makes me wonder just how dangerous the 3rd really is.
Touch it and find out. Ground yourself beforehand, too.
I just read a news story on a company that will repair high tension lines without shutting the power down.
They work from a helicopter, and thus are not grounded.
Elias
-Robert King
Paycheck ain't big enough to make ME want to do it though.
The problem is not so much the 360KV, it’s the KAs that back it up!
You can be a personal hot dog demo…
-Robert King
On second thought, the paycheque isn't big enough to make me want to do it, damp or dry, either.
-Robert King
Makes NYCTA's power department seem like sissies. :)
Eventually though it'll catch up to everybody, but I guess they figure the 3rd is fence enough.
Then they give you a REAL show - same nails, another doggie, 18 KILOVOLTS. BLAM! Bottom line, your twitchiness demonstrates wisdom, even if you've never had to LOOK at the results of someone who ended up kissing that steel. :(
Does anyone know how many accidents occur per year because of that third rail?
Always nice to be missed... I ended up taking a break from SubTalk a couple months ago due to all the stupid political threads and general idiocy on the board, in addition to being preoccupied with my own busy life here in Philly.
I'm still at Drexel (I'm actually working on my undergrad degree, not my graduate degree), although I've decided to take a year-long break from classes while I get some debts paid off and get some personal issues under control. Up until early June I was working full-time for a mid-size architecture firm in Collingswood, NJ, but was let go from that job last month. Right now I'm trying to collect unemployment while I look for a new job. I had to give up my car earlier this week because I couldn't keep up with the payments, and now I'm relying on SEPTA for my transportation needs until I can save up enough money for another car. (I'm also struggling to keep my apartment here in Philly, which I just moved into in April.)
To be totally honest, things have been going pretty rotten for me lately... I think I've become pretty burned-out on the state of the architecture profession these days (not to mention the corporate world in general), and I've been giving a lot of thought about what I want to do with my life. I'll probably stay in architecture, but that's no longer as certain as it once was.
Anyway, that's the latest dirt on me....
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
P.S. Kevin Walsh: Try e-mailing me again. I was out of town for a few days a couple weeks ago, and my inbox managed to fill up. But now that it's been purged, I should be able to receive messages again.
www.forgotten-ny.com
-- Ed Sachs
I mean COME ON. WHAT COULD THEY BE THINKING?!?!? It's almost as bad as this little gem I saw on the platform at Penn Station.
Sheesh, no wonder Amtrak can't make any money.
Let's take the bus example. If someone is going to ride a bus from Boston, even if they see 20 Amtrak ads at the bus station, they will ignore it. Most people who travel New York to Boston are aware of the bus, but only some are aware of the train. Therefore, those who travel by train are likely to know about the bus already. And if they are choosing to pay $130 to travel by train, then they won't really give a crap about the difference between $65 (the old fare) and $40 (the new greyhound round-trip fare).
It's Greyhound that's the bonehead here. If they want to subsidize Amtrak, I don't see any problems.
AEM7
I could see Greyhound telling passengers at Penn Station in New York "instead of paying almost $17 for a ride on two different trains between NY and Philly, use us for a one-seat ride." Maybe that would sway a few (Greyhound does a pretty good business, overall) but the beneficiary would still be the owner of the train station hosting the ad.
Only if their contract with the billboard company gives them that right
It's a control room... so it's likely only LADDER-EQUIPPED techs
were meant to gain access... (plain guess)
Its light rail system isn't much to brag about, also out of the 2 farecard machines at Penn Station one was busted, and the other one only took coins, because I don't usually carry $3.50 in coins I went inside the station to get change, one of the stores don't give out change, and the Amtrak desk didn't have anymore quaters because everyone else was going there to get change, finally got change from one passenger waiting for Amtrak...anyways, The city only got one subway line that didn't go anywhere I needed to go. I would of figure they would have either Light Rail or Subway service to the Inner Harbor but there's none. The closest Light Rail station is at the Baltimore Convention center, but its still quite a walk to get there, not great when its raining. Also it's buses are junk (at least the ones I rode on).
I'm not sure if anyone has any other things to add. I'm not bashing Baltimore, but its Public Transit could be better for a "CITY".
Mark
Also, this joke of a TA suffers from:
Chronically late buses
Permanent 17 min headways on the light rail
Misplacement of artics (The busy 8 line, which runs from Hunt Valley to UMD Transit Center, which is about a 1.5 hour ride, not only never sees artics, but almost always has buses bunched up back to back to back)
Click here to learn more about what the MTA Maryland should have
Mark
The construction of this new yard was started before MTA Maryland officially announced plans to double track the parts of the line that opened as single track.
John
My acerbic comment Saturday was "The management of the Light Rail couldn't find their (expetive deleted) with a road map and a box of Kleenex."
The current transit situation is worse than the final years of the NCL controlled Baltimore Transit Company.
Actually, I really don`t blame you. I see that several lines runs every 45 minutes on Saturdays (mostly branches and extremeties of SEPTA routes in the City runs with that type of schedules, except the J and 89 buses, they run hourly on Saturdays.), and 60 minutes and more on Sundays. Also SEPTA has the smarts (a rare feat at times) to put articulated buses on their most crowded routes (particularly the 33 and the 48 to Center City, and the 6 and the 18 to Olney Terminal). And finally, the Suburbs have some reasonable service (I notice there is hardly any lines outside of the City Limits, particularly cross-county runs). SEPTA's network is miles ahead going by the extremely low standards set in Baltimore.
This is even more shocking considering that 50 miles away, the Washington, DC network (WMATA, Ride-On, TheBus) makes the Baltimore system look putrid (It puts SEPTA to shame at times too.)
As far as equipment goes, SEPTA and WMATA's oldest buses look better than many of Baltimore`s current fleet. The surviving Neoplan DK`s and WMATA 87-8900 Flx Metro B's tend to look better than the entire fleet of Flx's and NABI's in Baltimore. Is the maintenance that bad down there? I can easily say that even SEPTA's maintenence keeps up the condition of our oldest buses better than MTA Md can with their workhorse buses. Of course no one can hold a candle to WMATA's maintenence, any system that can get 30+ years out of a GM Fishbowl, is a system that knows how to keep a bus running.
Maybe someday you'll get someone who knows what they're doing.
Well you are not the only making fun of the system, just go to www.btco.net and see more of what Baltimore bus and railfans have to go through on a daily basis.
Mark
For those who want to know how projects with political support get cancelled, look to the plan to have subway access to LaGuardia. It isn't dead, because officially killing it would arouse its supporters. It becomes "undead," like a ghoul, ghost or anitamted mummy, walking the earth but not actually alive.
If contracts for the Second Avenue Subway are not awarded by election day 2004, look out -- even if no one cancels it.
A "NON-DECISION" has been made to make the subway to LaGuardia "UN-DEAD."
=================
"..Three of the plans would extend the N line through Astoria. One would be underground, another would be elevated along 31st St. and 19th Ave. and the third calls for creation of an elevated spur along the Grand Central Parkway. The fourth plan would create a guided busway from the Queensboro Bridge.."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/100620p-90982c.html
Overall, this was Rudy G's dream/baby, and he pushed it even though the MTA was lukewarm about it. Now that he's out of office there's no one to push it anymore. Oh well....
60th Street already has three lines (you forgot the W). Ditmars can make do with just one. If this option is chosen, the W would go to the airport and the N would continue to serve Ditmars.
MTA is already starting to buy and condemn property needed to construct the 7 extension.
You know, it was supposed to continue up the Van Wyke, along GCP, past Shea, to LaG, then continue along GCP, through Sunnyside yards & across the outer lanes of the Queensborough Br to Manhattan. That plan died a painful, expensive death.
In any case, there's far more traffic between Manhattan & LaG than between LaG & JFK, so if I was build a line, I'd do that.
Prediction: no Hub, no SAS but the West Side Flushing line extension is at least started. A hunch.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Based on what? No NIMBY on either of those projects. And the HUB is FEMA money, not MTA money, so financing is not even an issue. The cash is there. All MTA has to do is award contracts and get it going.
As I've said before, there's no significant opposition to the SAS because the project's still in the talking stage (as it's been for decades ...) If it ever gets closer to reality, the opponents will come out from under the woodwork with their absurd claims. And even absurd claims can significantly delay projects.
Well, no, they can't always. Even if they end up in court. Your view of courts' willingness to hold up projects is not realistic.
I'm not against it at all, mind you. But it isn't on the front burner anymore. The SAS and 7 extension to Javits will break ground first, along with the Fulton Street transit mall, which is a FEMA-funded project (so it's easy to launch and complete).
I'm not as optimistic as you. I will be thrilled to see any capital project that improves subway service. I'm not betting on which one starts first since I'm not betting on any of them ever happening. I hope my skepticism is in vain.
Ah, but you're wrong there. It would offer two important advantages: 1) Underground (deals with NIMBY) 2)Local ADVOCATES which support the plan (YIMBY).
These are political considerations. Very important not to be tone-deaf to them.
The disadvantage, of course is cost.
There's a second disadvantage to the East Elmhurst option: it doesn't take most airport subway riders where they need to go.
That way, riders on the W,7,E,F,G,R trains could all transfer to the N train to LaGuardia at a combined Queensboro Plaza / Queens Plaza superhub.
Greetings from Philadelphia! Here we have a decent airport service, with commuter trains going to the airport every 30 minutes. The trip takes 26 minutes. Something more frequent might be nice, as would something faster. But it's decent.
My point is, if SEPTA is ahead of MTA in any way whatsoever, something just isn't right.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
This is also where Amtrak's Fast Mail derailed and tumbled down the embankment years ago. But like I said, it could have been much worst.
Too bad NJ Transit doesn't have an arrangement with Amtrak that fines the "host railroad" every time the host causes NJ Transit to be late. Otherwise, even with this derailment, Amtrak would still owe Transit billions!
Where are you working?
Doesn't that job fall under the engineer's title or does it vary from the railroads ?
I also remember someone saying (I belive it's Jersey Mike) that whoever screwed up will be responsible for the payment of the repairs needed to be done (In the words of JM When you derail while on trackage rights tracks the host railroad can hit you with a bill that'll make you wish you were never born.).
It is also understandable why ppl were let off the train. The pans were probably dropped so there'd be no AC, the train was more than likley SRO, if the C/R hadn't let people off there'd have been a riot. The track next to the train was out of service and by letting people out in an orderly fasion he could keep them off the inservice W/b track.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Apparantly the axle sheared off (due to heat), the guard rail on the rails stopped the cars from rolling completely off. From what I've heard, supposedly the journal detector near Edison caught the condition (see the "Hot Box" thread somehwere on this forum) and the train was stopped and inspected, then given the go to proceed...obviously somebody missed something there.
As I said before, Hotboxes are tricky to spot, even if you have the approx. car they can still be missed upon a close visual inspection. Since there are false alarms, if the C/R finds no hotbox in the flagged car or 2(or some number) cars in either direction, he can signal the train to proceed. If the train it tagged again at another detector for the same car, that car must then be set out no questions asked. If the C/R missed the hotbox and signaled the train to proceed, baring some NJT/Amt specific rule that is different than the general trend or evidence of negligence, he would not be in error for doing so.
99.9% of the time, the decision to move an "unsafe" train is made by a trainmaster or dispatcher, not by the Conductor or Engineer. If that was the case, I hope the conductor either got the order in writing, or on the radio or over the phone, since those transmissions are always taped.
Now now, he's just having a tizzy. Although the expressed desire to see another train crew "f**k" up a train isn't comforting...
Jimmy
Anyway, designing a hot bearing detector is a senior year project for an EE degree. It's neither hard nor expensive.
The proccessing power costs about $2
The power supply? $3. $5 if you go overboard.
The sensor? Maybe $5 to $50 depending on type and package.
Figure $10 for the trainline emergency stop relay and another $1 for the warning buzzer.
You could EASILY implement a really nice hot box detector on board for under $500 a car. EASILY.
To top it off, give it a serial link (go ahead, break the bank, it's only $10 more), and you can plug in every now and then and find out how the bearing performance has been. With good trending and data collection, you could predict a bearing long before it fails.
Go a little ($5, but subtract $5 off the serial link) more, add wireless to the turck so everytime the train comes into Sunnyside / Hoboken, a detector picks up performance data for that truck (bearing by bearing) and automatically notifies maintenance of any suspect trucks.
Add a $35 (actually, less) accelerometer, and you've got automatic flat wheel detection. You could also probbably monitor other dynamic issues that way.
The whole package would be sub 5 lbs and the size of a pack of playing cards, minus the externals. You could just truck mount it and forget.
This isn't sci fi guys, it's what's really possible and doable with today's technology.
$500 is just the fixed costs for the system. Such a system would then need to be inspected, tested and calibrated on a regular basis, not to mention maintained. You are also forgetting that you need 1 unit PER bearing. That means 8 per car. 8 more points of failure and 8 more points of maintainence per vehicle not counting the trainline.
And what do all these costs get you? Maybe one prevented derailment every...what...10 years? 20? When was the last time there was a hotbox induced derailment on the NEC?
Hotboxes take around 20 miles of travel to burn through and cause a derailment. The least cost solution is to simply install a few more HBD-DED's along the NEC. That just involved 16 IR detectors and the related computational circutiry.
The software would be in the neighborhood of 200 - 400 lines of assembly, depedning on what features we'd want. I'm being dead serious on that code size, I've done much more complex stuff in less space with a PIC...
And that'd be one unit per truck. The thing would STILL have plenty of spare processor left to sit and add up numbers aimlessly.
Maintenance? Gee, adjust all those little solid state switches every few years? :) It's a chip and a chip and a chip. All digital. Nothing to calibrate or maintain. Put the setpoints in EEPROM, and that's it.
Avoiding falsies? It'd be real easy to strip out bad data and flag it as such. Real easy.
The type of sensor i'm thinking of is digital. There's no analog themister/op amp/AD converter at all. The data comes out of the probe as a serial stream, as often as you want.
Sealed and potted, it'll outlast the train car. Nothing hard here.
It's zero maintenance. Because there's nothing to maintain :)
Cheaper than wayside detectors? That's a debate that goes into what awayside detector and all costs, Vs what equipping a fleet of cars would cost, plus other issues like maintenance costs, and 'missed' trains like the one that just derailed. This could go on for quite a while.
I'll take the high road - $1,000 per train car. This assumes development costs, and a really nice metal potted case, in addition to parts/manufacturing. Now, how many hotbox detectors and their maintenance for the next 20 years would, say, $1,000,000 buy :)
Yes, except for the 4 probes and 5 wires on a truck that has several non-static connections and is constantly vibrating. Not to mention the issues with enviornment, placement or energy fields from traction motors if any.
Avoiding falsies? It'd be real easy to strip out bad data and flag it as such. Real easy
I'm not talking bad data, I am talking about good data that indicates a hotbox that does not exist. Lineside HBD's have a significant proportion of false readings, imagine if you had a continuious monitoring. there's be delays all over the system.
You are going to need the HBD's anyway for freight equipment, so there is no savings from truck mounted models.
EMI is an issue, but the issues with AC drives and such are known and able to be dealt with. More serious would be a high voltage hit to the system, but even that can be dealt with...
Environment? Potted in sillicone, it's impervious to water, very vibration resistant. Connections would require something like a Deutsche (tm) connector, which is a type that's proven to work in extreme conditions, and designed for it.
In any case, a failed sensor could just be locked out and notification via whatever mode you want be posted. This can be automatic.
With an RF link available, I'd envision the following:
* A simple box, about the size of a paperback book and same weight, bolted to the truck. Contains the electronics, is potted, has a few jacks on the outside.
* A temperature sensor mounted on/near each bearing.
Durring operation, this system would monitor bearing temperatures, and truck accelerations in 2 directions. The latter would allow for flat wheel detection quite nicely, though it may require those expense ($15) microcontrollers with DSP functionality...
Power would be trainline supplied, and there'd be two outputs - emergency stop and a warning signal.
Obviously, the warning signal would come on first, if the condition quickly deteriorates or the warning is ignored for too long, a stop would be initiated.
At terminals, a simple antenna/reciever box would pick up the "black box" data collected, which could be databased and used to monitor truck/fleet performance. This would really be optional, depending on what usefulness trending of bearing temperatures would have, and if you had a flat spot detector.
Imagine as a train pulls into, say, Penn, personel at Sunnyside could know that it has flat wheels and which cars were the worst, and also if any bearings / trucks appeared to be suspect. They'd know ahead of time, meaning the decisions on what to do could be made before the train arrives in the yard, as opposed to later.
Obviously, this is really only needed for passenger equipment, but it's a more rational approach to a problem than the existing one (i.e. overbuild the carbody and pray hard).
So it'd work like those ACELA doors where a minor fault take a train out of service for a half hour. Or those wonderful "Check Engine" lights that are always bugging you about problems that don't exist. The more sensors you have the more problems you find and then you're in a maintainence nightmare.
ALSO I HAVE MANY OTHER JOBS BESIDES BEING A MACHINE OPERATOR. I DO THINGS FOR AMTRAK AND NJ TRANSIT. IF U HAVE EVER RIDDEN ANYTHING IN THE NEWARK PENN STATION AREA, I KNOW WHO IS CONTROLLING UR TRAINS AND I KNOW WHO'S HANDS UR LIFE IS IN. SO UNTIL U KNOW WHO UR DEALING WITH, I STRONGLY ADVISE U KEEP TO URSELF
Here is something I really don't understand:
Railroad types (managers and engineers) seem to have a real problem with discussing safety issues in public forums, unless they become aware that they are talking to an informed audience and they are assured that they will not be quoted out of context.
Looking at the posting by A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP here, I can see why railroad types (esp. managers) would feel somewhat uneasy. It was an ongoing investigation and obviously any "insider" information, whether accurate or not, should not have been posted to a public forum.
But why is open discussion of such issues as signalling, rules, operations, and who-should-have-done-what so taboo? Instead of saying that the conductor will get fired, if A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP has instead asked questions about operating procedures (e.g. what the crew should have done, did the crew judge the situation correctly when he [allegedly] ordered the train continue in service to NYP despite a hot axlebox -- by the way, not an uncommon occurance, and I've used one of those templesticks too)... would he still have been crucified by the railroad types?
Here's my own perspective. I've been wearing a transit planner hat for a while now, and I sort of understand why I don't always like discussing transit planning with the "laymen". I often get hit with the question "why can't MBTA improve service" (I am not an MBTA employee), and I always have to go through this long explanation of how the T doesn't have money, and how they will tend to spend money where there are the highest number of riders, and how the planners determines amount of service to provide, and why the #86 bus hadn't showed up and we'd been waiting for 30 minutes. And often people are very critical of me and often I have to really try hard to win them over and communicate to them the realities of constrained resource allocation. But every once in a while, I succeed, and people understand that if they want to have beefed up #66 service they might lose some other bus service that is more critical -- unless they want to pay $2.00 for fares.
With all respect to the railroad types on this board... can we try to be nicer about explaining things. Sometimes, people just have to be told. I understand why Dutchrailnut reacted as he did, and I would have done exactly the same thing (I have a temper, and I am far more intolerant of ignorance than Dutchrailnut I am sure). But once we are done trading the insults, isn't it better to say "please do not speculate about someone's employment situation and do not post unverified information" and then go on to explain the real issues. I really don't see why A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP should be barred from every working for Metro North as a result of this episode. Instead his unprofessionalism demonstrated here should be immediately corrected and his knowledge of railroading updated by a more senior railroader. Whatever happened to the old days when the old heads would help the trainees learn the craft? Learning the craft include learning the rules AS WELL AS how you should deal with a difficult professional situation -- like one where a fellow railroader might come under fire for something that he allegedly failed to do.
Subtalk is an opportunity for railroading education. I want to take the maximum advantage of it, and I want to learn about operations.
AEM7
Pantograph
Were any of you stuck on a train during that blackout? Were any of you working for Transit during this time and were involved with the rescue efforts of stranded trains? What were your experiences?
I was a 17 year old kit in sleepaway camp breaking the news to my friends as I heard it over CBS 880 over a small transistor radio.
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
Remember in the late 70's when Times Square was in jeopardy of being turned into office space? I was there when they staged the "shut off" of Times Square (to show people what it would look like dark), this post just kinda reminded me...
Mark
Just Kidding,
I couldn't
resist!!
Hey
if
anyone
can
read
this
let
me
know!!!
It's a chain.
They're everywhere.
-Mark
See what I mean?
<font color="#ffffff">Top Secret Message</font>
The result will be:
Top Secret Message
Enjoy!
-Mark
Not a problem at all. Besides, it's so easy to do some really neat things with just few html tags, that I feel I should spread the know-how around.
-Mark
--Mark
And we're staining our pants over a bunch of gangsters in the MidEast. The RUSSKIES could have killed us all, not just a few of us. But everybody in the city that we had been talking to were just plain flipping out. Then came Reagan. ("The bombing will begin in five minutes, is this thing on?") :-\
How is that possible?
I never understood why people use candlelight during blackout. Hasn't anybody heard of BATTERIES?
But yeah, while NYC couldn't see TV, there was Chuck Skumbubble ON CAMERA by candlelight! Heh.
Mark
Seems like they were ALWAYS owned by GE after General Sarnoff died. Words cannot DESCRIBE my gratitude that I don't have to watch the five networks anymore. But yeah, Chuck was there in a ROMANTIC setting. Heh.
Mark
It's so much more romantic...
During the Hurricane of 1985, we had no power for five days and used a kerosene lamp with a mantle. Produced a bright, even light (about like a 60W bulb) but it's still tiring to read by. You begin to understand why frontier people went to bed early.
But out coal-powered TV never quit!
Dim lighting, plus working 16 hours each day plowing, chopping, slopping, milking, etc. tends to wear one out.
Mark
But at least we GOT the pirates that have been nailing my income! (change subject up above to "software pirates (OT)" or some such and I'll tell the off-topic story. Hurt a handful of our PAID customers, but they get what we give them for *FREE* after they pay us once, and the reason I'm more toasted than USUAL at this point is making sure everyone goes away happy even IF they ain't buying me a beer. No beers. :(
But there's always WEDNESDAY when I wake up again after this shift. Heh.
I don't think too many of us will.
I recall each fireman giving me a $10 tip -- over $400 in tips was pretty cool in 1977 -- and a whole lot more than the salary for the charter!
Those rules were used until 8/8/88 at Wrigley Field when they first installed lights and played the Mets in the first night game.
Those rules were used until 8/8/88 at Wrigley Field when they first installed lights and played the Mets in the first night game.
BTW, the sherbet I loved melted in the freezer overnight.
How we evolve..... you could have DRANK that sherbet from the box
in the morning........take no guilt......... and order up Proactiv
TODAY to cure that pimpled face from '77.
How about that. I'd just moved from Gallup, NM a year earlier.
Mark
SHEEYUT!!! It wasn't until your post that I realized you guys were discussing the one that happened in the 70s!! I thought youse were talking about the first one. Only thing I remember about that first one, besides it looking cool to see all the lights out, was hearing a girl crying because she thought the Russians were attacking.
The second blackout happened about a year or two before I first actually moved into Brooklyn. In Williamsburg on S. 4th St near Union. 1974ish. (And subsequently went to E. 16th St. and Ave. R, 20th Ave and 65th St., and 84th St. and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy., over the preceding 25 years or so. Case anyone's curious)
1977, I was on vacation in Miami Beach and only read about it.
To really put things into an even sadder perspective in terms of communities hardest hit by the 1977 blackout: These people were looting and robbing their stores that they would patronize in. So instead of Black and Hispanic people getting together to help others, they start robbing stores run by the same race as themselves.
Very sad time.
Bro, that's a troublesome statement you just uttered. Any way you analyze it, it's a bad thing to say. Are you arguing the inverse of what you said? Are you condoning that inverse? And the race bit...why would that make a difference? I've read you bustin' on guys for their views regarding this topic. Might be time to look in the mirror, my brother.
Already the forces were against these neighborhoods suffering from the free spending of the Lindsay era (great man, great healer, lousy at the city's budget) people were appartently taking their opportunites out on the same people they should band together and strive to make their neighborhoods a better place. Now the neightborhoods are not only making a comeback, areas such as Bushwick, East Harlem, the Bronx all learned that getting groups together and working to improve the quality of life in their neighborhoods benefits us all. Harlem (I myself love the area, and the rich and diverse history), has been for the past few years a worthy tourist destination.
It may be wrong for me to make a statement like that, I am so sorry. However those were the facts surrounding the 1977 blackout, and I speak only the facts, not fiction.
--Mark
Everything between Franklin and Mulberry Streets was demolished for the construction of Interstate 70 to downtown Baltimore. 44 blocks became a trench for the highway and a possible rapid transit line.
The road was built between Greene Street and Monroe Street before sanity set in. I-70 would have destroyed two more areas plus Leakin Park before the road was stopped.
The median area in the road that was buily is still waiting for tracks and trains.
Would that be the Jones Falls Expressway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The Jones Falls Expressway (JFX) is 1957 on, the riots were the result of Martin's assasination.
The only "trench" that destroyed blocks was the I-70 trench.
The trench took out everything from Franklin to Mulberry for 44 blocks. From Greene Street to Monroe.
It stops (peters out might be a better term) short of Monroe Street and the westbound traffic is shunted back to Franklin. If it had been contiuned, it would have passed over the PRR (Amtrak today) and destroyed two more neighborhoods plus a large part of a city park.
It was stopped by a coalition of the to be affected neighborhoods and Barbara Mikulski, who was in the City Council at the time, (She's our "Junior" US Senator today.) along with politicians of every stripe.
They not only stopped I-70, they also killed the extension of I-83 (the JFX) through Fells Point, where it would have connected with I-95.
My mother was home sick with the flu during the 11/65 blackout. Lucky for her. If she had followed her usual routine that day, she'd have been stuck on an A train in Brooklyn somehwere between Hoyt St. and Utica Ave.
We had just been driven out of New York by the recession, after my father had been unemployed, off and on, for two years. A hot summer followed a brutally cold winter. We drove out to Oklahoma after school ended, at the end of June. And there were lots of others like us -- my parents formed an entire social circle of refugees from New York and Philadelphia. We no sooner unpacked our TV than we looked back and saw New York burning.
If New York survived 1977, it will be a hard place to kill off.
Your family was in the vanguard of what's now a torrent of Sunbelt-bound economic refugees. I suppose Tulsa's not that common a destination, however.
FWIW, they are still idiots.
FWIW, this closing statement made my day, brah.
--Mark
After learning about the blackout, my father telephoned my grandparents, who were then in their mid-70s and lived in Brooklyn. The phones initially were not working but they were soon restored.
I remember that the weather that night was sticky and humid. My mother and I sat on our porch chatting with our neighbors until about 11:30 p.m. and then I went to bed. Fortunately, the a/c in my bedroom had been on earlier in the day and the room was still cool. I didn't know about the looting until the power came back the next morning at about 9:30 and we watched the news on TV.
I do remember the one before that. It had to be in the early '60s, because we were ready to drive to a Boy Scout meeting at the time. And that was before I entered the Navy in '66.
Oh well, at least my computer did not crash back then. Out here battery back-ups are a necessity, because we are always having 30 second outages.
Elias
Rod Serling, creator of "The Twilight Zone", used the November 1965
blackout in his novella, "Eyes", in his 1967 book, "The Season To Be
Wary". In it, a Miss Claudia Menlo gets twelve hours of sight
after committing ruthless multiple blackmail. The catch is, she gets
them during the blackout, and at first thinks her optic nerve trans-
plant operation has failed. Upon seeing the sun rise the next morning, she realizes the operation has worked, but by then it is too late. Walking toward her already-fading sight of the sun, she falls
out a broken window to her death. The story became part of the TV
movie, "Night Gallery", with Joan Crawford excellent in the role of
Miss Menlo.
Bill Wyman, in his autobiography, "Stone Alone", mentions a "Lost Jam"
occurring on the night of Nov 9 1965, that included fellow stone
Brian Jones, and Bob Dylan, "lost" because there was no electrical
power to record it.
The November 1965 blackout was the subject of the 1968 comedy, "Where
Were You When The Lights Went Out ?" with gap-toothed comedian, Robert
Morse. I know of no films or plays based on the July 1977 blackout.
A former co-worker of mine mentioned that the section of Brooklyn he
lived in (either Bay Ridge or Bensonhurst) still had power in the
November 1965 blackout.
Songs yes: The Trammps-"Where Were You When The Lights Went Out in New York City?"
Good disco music.
That's an oxymoron
Blackout of 1977
Blackout
Elvis died
Son of Sam
Don't you mean "Elvis went into hiding"?
: )
Mark
CHECK THAT PIC..............
Metrocard Advertisement on the pillar.
1977 that AINT.
But seriously that pic was too dark to make out anything!
Mark
Two can play at this game.
Here's a photo from my collection "from" the blackout of 77. At least this one is in the right timeframe!
Blackout of 1977
Memoirs of the travesty I see each time I stare into an Rmadillo's RFW..
--Mark
Detention for the Proff.
There was a mob of people trying to hail me but I already had a passenger and couldn't pick anyone up in Midtown. By the time I got all the way uptown, traffic was chaotic and more to the point - unsafe.
There was some minor looting on Upper Madison Avenue and I chose to get out of Manhattan and return to my Bronx garage. I put the "Off Duty" light on as the risks of an accident at unprotected intersections was getting out of hand (traffic lights as well as streetlights were all out and rules of aggressive driving were getting a little extreme.)
However - I did drive Checkers prior to that. I worked for Helen Maintenance in '75 and my first cab ever was a Checker. The customers loved 'em!
In 1965 I in the D train station at Church & McDonald. The lights went down, then out, then came on again. That part of Brooklyn never lost power in that first famous blackout.
You'd have to pass through too many really bad neighborhoods to make this trip safely today.
However, I remember exactly where I was for the '65 blackout that covered the whole East Coast. I was in class at Hebrew School at the East Meadow Jewish Center and when the lights started flickering and then went completely out everybody in the class started making jokes about how the shul didn't pay their electric bills! They let us out early and my father found the one diner in the area with generators which was so crowded we waited over an hour for a table.
My grandmother lived in the Warbasse Buildings (she lived in the white building right next to the Van Siklen/Neptune Station) and they supplied their own power with their own generators so she had power during both blackouts.
Radio Coverage of the 1977 Blackout
--Mark
Better that you were alone on the elevator than in there with someone who was in a state of panic.
BIG TIME! New York City of 1965, was VERY different from NYC of 1977. The city was a dangerous place in the late 70's. The blackout of 65' was very peacefull, people singing and playing songs on the stoops in Greenwich village etc... The blackout of 77' got violent. It was just the mood of the city at the time...
A combination of both.
Hee hee. I sure remember that night! Weird juxtaposition of events; my first, uh, exposure to the female form au natural, right before the action was getting hot. On the moon. I was so torn...
:-) Andrew
wayne
They had computers in 1977? :)
Remember 8" floppy disks?
Mark
Mark
See, this is on-topic! : )
Mark
That's very, er, creative ...
I bicycled into work the next day. It took about an hour door to door, Flushing to Times Square - about the same time it would have taken had the trains been running. I did have to carry my bike up 8 flights of stairs to my office.
The computer facility did have backup power. However, we had only 8 hours worth of diesel fuel. We managed to complete the previous night's work and shut down.
We started up again at 8 am and started a desparate search to try to get an emergency shipment of diesel fuel to keep our computers going throughout the day. We were not successful and had to close up shop around 11 am.
We were not alone in not being able to keep our comuters running because Con Ed was not able to restore power within the 8 hours of emergency fuel backup. One result was to greatly increase the size of our fuel tanks. I'd assume that the design for 7 WTC came pretty soon after this experience. It was the burning of the fuel tanks AND THEIR PLACEMENT that caused that building to collapse on 9/11. There may not have been so much fuel had Con Ed been able to restore power more promptly.
Nine... eleven.
I was on the #7 train under the East River. We were on the upgrade when the power failed. The T/O let the train keep rolling until just the first car reached Vernon-Jackson. In short order he opened the crew door and we all got out. I walked home to Sunnyside & cooked supper on the gas stove. The was six of us living in a three bedroom apartment (lower two floors of a two family house). It took a while for everyone to get home.
Now I live in one of the towns on L.I. that has it's own power station. The lights didn't go out in those towns because they disconnected themselves form the grid (that's the mistake made in NYC, they could have pushed the switches to disconnect, but they waited for authorization until it was too late).
--Mark
Hmm... doubt you'd see that kind of behavior today.
And to answer the Q, not even conceived yet.
New Station House Work at Marcy Avenue
A Man Waits for his train at Woodside L.I.R.R
The View of an R-142 from the Floor
Gates Avenue
Beach 90th Station
One of the Two Rockaway Bridges
36 Street
Glass Stained Window
Beach 116 Street Station
New Building Appearing at Sunnyside Yard-- Phase 1?
Signal at Beach 116 Street Terminal
For Those Who Thought My Photos Were Trash
Enjoy!
Keep rolling the sabor, hermano!!
I don't think he's going to find any of that one. ;-)
(I took this on September 2, 2001. Yes, September 2.)
The same reason some traffic lights are horizontal while others are vertical.
What do you think? Kind of gives it a haunting feel, in my opinion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks! I only thought of it at the last minute, and it was on the R1-9 trip, so I can't repeat it with dark doors again. If I try it again though, I will be more prepared, and not have Forest Ave's canopy in the way of the top of St Matthias' steeple (maybe bend down a little). Of course the dark door and dim bulbs of the old train helped with the effect. I'll have to settle for florescent and silver next time.
And my personal favorite:
So what about the 190+ R38 cars? They will be 44 years old then.
Now picture an Arnine and a LoV CONNECTED in perfect harmony ... A division, B division, cats and dogs LIVING together. A REGULAR event at Branford. That's where I had in mind 32's, 40's and newer junkers running ... because they CAN! :)
David
Perhaps the Redbirds can be pulled off the 7, but then the 58 reserve R-33ML's will have to reenter service. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
David
David
David
David
It seems like there's an easy way to check. How many R-142's are not yet in service (whether delivered or not)? How many Redbirds are still in service?
I don't have a recent number on deliveries and active Redbirds. Last I heard (about a month ago, I guess), the Flushing Line was about half-and-half, Redbirds vs. R-62As, meaning that somewhere around 200 Redbirds (allowing for spares) were still in service.
David
The R-142 and R-142A orders, as finally configured (not as initially configured), included enough cars to replace every Redbird (there were 1,401 Redbirds in service when the orders were placed) plus increase the fleet by 150 cars to add service. Now NYCT is buying 80 more cars (R-142S), with the idea of adding even more service.
And, by the way, spare ratios can be manipulated somewhat to reduce fleet size without reducing service -- not that that's been done.
David
Changing the subject, do you know which lines have received more scheduled service since the R-142's started arriving, and which will be the beneficiaries of the R-142S order?
David
I can also say that there's more 1/9 service now than there was before 9/11/01 (and, more importantly, much better handling of problems).
Is that it? Any schedule improvements on the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7?
I read the article about the plans for November. IIRC, they were restricted to the East Side lines. Is that correct?
Sounds right to me.
David
-AcelaExpress2005 - R160
3 Train R62A - #2000
3 Train R62A - #2001
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Where have you been? the 5 has had R142's for a year and a half now and a Redbird free fleet since April.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
During the am rush, the last four "5"s from Dyre Ave. (8:45-9:13) terminate at either Utica or New Lots. During the pm rush hours, ALL "5"s from Dyre Ave AFTER 6:52 (6:52-7:43) terminate at either Utica or New Lots.
During the pm rush hours, MOST "5"s to Nereid Ave begin at either Utica or New Lots. In fact, there are only TWO Nereid Ave "5"s leaving Flatbush Ave.-4:10pm and 5:52pm.-that's it. The rest of the Nereid Ave. "5"s begin at Utica/New Lots with about 3 of them beginning at Bowling Green.
During the am rush, there is also a few of them that begin from Utica/New Lots.
Now I say Utica/New Lots because on the schedule these "5"s just end or appear at the Franklin Ave column but nothing at the Flatbush column.
So as you can see, there are quite a few "5"s going to/from Utica/New Lots.
Good luck!
It was stopped in part due to severe abuses by various members of TA staff. In cases where the cards were sold at the station booth a few Station Agents were keeping some for themselves instead of selling them when a customer wanted a new card. When it came to the MVM's, boxes of the cards would never make it to the MVM's. They would instead go to either the people whose job it was to fill the machines or to unscrupulous individuals who paid them to misroute the cards.
I am sure that the advertisers who paid to have these cards printed were not happy and probably dropped the idea of using the MetroCard as advertising. But it is coming back slowly. The latest one is from Chase Bank.
In the meantime the MTA has been doing the "Safety Card" theme on the cards.
As far as a club goes, it was tried and there were even some MetroCard shows but the idea died out over a year or so. There was a situation here where I saw an individual at one of these shows who had a whole box of MetroCards that had not even been released to the public yet.
Another example - when the Yankees won the 2000 World Series, the MetroCards were on ebay before they were in the machines. To make matters worse, the MTA withdrew the cards before release because there was a dispute with Major League Baseball over copyright issues.
Your best bet is to post here from time to time. There are a handful of collectors here (note that most lile to trade rather than sell). You can go the ebay route but expect to pay $$$$$.
Robert
BTW, there is also a Chase bank MC out there.
Robert
til next time
City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley
By MATTHEW SWEENEY Staff Reporter of the Sun
New York City has ordered Brooklyn¡¯s Don Quixote of trolleys to pick up his trains and go home.
Robert Diamond, founder of the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association, has labored with federal and city support for the last 10 years on the Red Hook waterfront to build the city¡¯s first trolley line since 1960.
But the city has ordered Mr. Diamond to deliver a plan for pulling his tracks out of city streets where he was no longer welcome.
¡°It looks like it¡¯s pretty much over with,¡± said Tom Cocola, a spokesman for the city Department of Transportation.
Mr. Diamond, who was to provide his plan over the weekend, said yesterday he would instead file suit against the city in the hopes of saving the trolley line, which he envisioned would run 1.6 miles from the rough-and-tumble neighborhood, which has virtually no subway service, to the Borough Hall station in Downtown Brooklyn.
¡°We¡¯ll let the courts decide if it¡¯s the end of the line,¡± Mr. Diamond said.
The DOT order to shut down ends a financial dispute between Mr. Diamond and the agency that goes back nearly two years.
With DOT sponsorship, Mr. Diamond obtained about $300,000 in federal and city grants in the late 1990s. The DOT also gave Mr. Diamond permission to lay tracks from a waterfront pier, where he stored his trolleys, onto a two-block stretch of Brooklyn on Conover and Reed streets.
¡°We always were under the impression that some of the costs would be absorbed by him,¡± Mr. Cocola said.
Mr. Diamond dug up those two blocks and laid rail, but work proceeded slowly over the last decade, with just a handful of demonstration runs.
¡°We were making progress,¡± Mr. Diamond said. ¡°We were inching along.¡±
Mr. Diamond failed to come up with funding and argued instead that the tens of thousands of hours of labor on the project should count toward his end.
Not satisfied, the DOT withdrew its sponsorship for Mr. Diamond¡¯s grant requests last year.
Mr. Diamond said that without the city¡¯s support, he was stuck.
The relationship deteriorated this year. Over a three-day period at the end of May, the DOT hauled away several tons of railroad ties, steel rails and other equipment as Mr. Diamond looked on. The agency said it owned the equipment because Mr. Diamond bought it with taxpayer money.
Mr. Diamond, in turn, filed a police report accusing the city of grand larceny, claiming that $616,000 of the seized equipment was bought with his own money or privately raised funds.
¡°We¡¯re disappointed with the way things are turning,¡± Mr. Cocola said.
It¡¯s not just the city that wants Mr.Diamond to pack up his operation.A local developer, Greg O¡¯Connell, has taken legal steps seeking to remove Mr. Diamond from a nearby lot, where Mr. O¡¯Connell is trying to bring in a Fairway supermarket.
Mr.O¡¯Connell,who supported Mr.Diamond early on by letting him store cars and equipment on his property, said he will continue to give Mr. Diamond a place for storage on a nearby pier, but needs the land back.
If not a trolley line, maybe Mr. Diamond could open a trolley museum, he said.
¡°I¡¯d like to keep it alive in some way or another,¡± he said.
Adding to Mr. Diamond¡¯s misery, two former associates have created their own group, the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company.They have been stumping for their plan to build a trolley line in the borough connecting a planned waterfront park with Downtown Brooklyn.
If his legal action does not save the trolley line, Mr. Diamond said he would sell the collection of cars. He stores 12 of the trolley cars at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where his lease expired last year.
The minute those sunguns go dark and the camera's put away in its case, and the sticks are taken down and the crew heads for the truck, the soundbite's over and the politicos get to play again. I've heard from folks that think Bob's a nutcase, others who have pointed the fingers elsewhere, and with good reason and as a former journalist myself, THIS is a story I would have bit into even if I DIDN'T like trains and trolleys. To all but our Shrub, it's OBVIOUS that there's a nice 60 minute show to be told here. Especially after "banZAI" last night on Fozz.
May not be 60 Minutes, but "if it's another day, MUST be another DateLine MSNBC" should EASILY kill a show with the goings-on here. Who knows? Maybe Geraldo can do a special where he finds a 1934 nickel under one of the seats in a PCC. :)
Perhaps it *IS* their fault ... I have *YET* to meet a politician after 50 years (remember JONATHAN B BINGHAM? I worked for him as a child) ... that doesn't phuck the one who gave them LESS money than the OTHER economic opponent. Grow up and LEARN how politics works. The PETA mentality of "public servant" is like feeding white mice to boas compared to who politicians can phuck.
Nope, the way things are going lately, MOGADISHU is a good example of government with what we've got in power these days ... at least they'd be putting holes in each OTHER than us. :(
Pardon my flippance, but after the shafting ****I**** got lately, the only GOOD politician is one that's been stuffed and mounted (and not necessarily in that order) so their frigging ilps won't MOVE anymore. :(
And to politicos, stay away from Voorheesville and our brand new "nobody WANTED this DAMNED THING" traffic circle, and we won't come looking for *YOU* ... stay the phuck OUT of our town. We can pump our OWN water (and do), plow our own roads (costs ME over $2500 a year since the village, town state WON'T and THEY NAMED the damned thing)) ... oh, I could go on and on about how USELESS government is but I won't ... next paychecks this year oughta do THAT. :(
There is very little objectivity in journalism. Hense the tabloid crap news in the daily news, post cahnnel 2,4,5,7,9,11. Chanal 11 being the most objective of the bunch.
I got OUT of journalism when the lies of the LA TIMES, Washington "Times" and such established. Sun Myung MOON is not my idea of political LEADERSHIP for the USA ... RUPERT'S *MUCH* better and owned by the same. Worst we had prior was the NY TIMES. Bottom line, JOURNALISM, The (as Fred Friendly put it in school) ... "The reporter is a PAID WITNESS ... the "5 W's" apply in EVERY assignment. (no trains involved, sorry) ...
BOTTOM LINE though is there;s NEWS and there's FLUFF. Foaming is NOT news. ESPECIALLY when it's "rip and paste" like AP ... :(
Chaohwa
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Well, they're both pretty ugly... but then again that could be said about quite a few of us :-)
In a word, no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
Paul
I see you guys have been misbehaving while I was away...boy, I can't turn my head away for a second without somebody busting my nads? ;)
Sheesh, that some strong words there don't ya think 8-).
Obviously, the trolley maven of Brooklyn and I are NOT related. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a rapid transit aficianado with just a smidgen of trolley-blood in my veins. Bob on the other hand is a diehard overhead wire buff.
I'm disappointed that the trolley didn't happen, but it is possible Diamond had a shot at it and it just didn't work out.
I don't know enough, obviously, to be able to offer any kind of opinion as to his lawsuit (what was in the agreement's fine print?).
Thanks for posting that story.
No, I don't think that's right.
Bob was supose to come up with some matching equity (money, supplies, work). He did obtain a lot of material on his own for next to nothing, and over the period in question & lot of sweat occured.
I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault.
"I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault."
Thurston, I think that you're oversimplifying things. I doubt that NYCDOT has nothing better to do than to harass bob. More likely, from the City's point of view, it would be easier to have the trolley project proceed so that Iris and Chuck could have a photo op at the ribbon cutting ceremony. The fact that NYCDOT is evicting bob indicates that there was some hitherto undisclosed problem that could not be resolved. It is possible that BHRA did not live up to all of its obligations. Did the agreement allow for "sweat equity" to be used as the local match? I'm not sure.
It's easy to blame the City/DOT for this. It's natural for railfans to feel put-upon by the car-centric DOT, but we are not privy to all of the behind the scenes discussions that took place. Now that there's a court case pending, the details will come to light and both the BHRA and NYCDOT positions should become clear. Until then, let's refrain from simplifying this to "City Bad, bob good".
We'll see what happens in court. Hopefully, people will post the proceeedings.
"I think you are a shill for the NYCDOT. Definitely no friend of rail."
Considering some of your past posting, your solely deciding who is or isn't a friend of rail is pretty laughable.
Now, I may not take everything that a politician (or spokesperson for the City) says as factual or accurat, but I won't as far as our friend Selkirk has recently. But, by the same token I won't trash him for his position either.
I've been to Bob's waterfront site and wished him well, not recently though. His plan/goal seemed to make since for the City as well as railfans. No one person/group is at fault here, but I feel I know who put that last straw on the camel's back.
More like the OWNER of the property where Diamond had his operation changed HIS mind and decided that a giant supermarket was more profitable than a trolley line...
I am sorry it didn't work out.
The minute those sunguns go dark and the camera's put away in its case, and the sticks are taken down and the crew heads for the truck, the soundbite's over and the politicos get to play again. I've heard from folks that think Bob's a nutcase, others who have pointed the fingers elsewhere, and with good reason and as a former journalist myself, THIS is a story I would have bit into even if I DIDN'T like trains and trolleys. To all but our Shrub, it's OBVIOUS that there's a nice 60 minute show to be told here. Especially after "banZAI" last night on Fozz.
May not be 60 Minutes, but "if it's another day, MUST be another DateLine MSNBC" should EASILY kill a show with the goings-on here. Who knows? Maybe Geraldo can do a special where he finds a 1934 nickel under one of the seats in a PCC. :)
Perhaps it *IS* their fault ... I have *YET* to meet a politician after 50 years (remember JONATHAN B BINGHAM? I worked for him as a child) ... that doesn't phuck the one who gave them LESS money than the OTHER economic opponent. Grow up and LEARN how politics works. The PETA mentality of "public servant" is like feeding white mice to boas compared to who politicians can phuck.
Nope, the way things are going lately, MOGADISHU is a good example of government with what we've got in power these days ... at least they'd be putting holes in each OTHER than us. :(
Pardon my flippance, but after the shafting ****I**** got lately, the only GOOD politician is one that's been stuffed and mounted (and not necessarily in that order) so their frigging ilps won't MOVE anymore. :(
And to politicos, stay away from Voorheesville and our brand new "nobody WANTED this DAMNED THING" traffic circle, and we won't come looking for *YOU* ... stay the phuck OUT of our town. We can pump our OWN water (and do), plow our own roads (costs ME over $2500 a year since the village, town state WON'T and THEY NAMED the damned thing)) ... oh, I could go on and on about how USELESS government is but I won't ... next paychecks this year oughta do THAT. :(
There is very little objectivity in journalism. Hense the tabloid crap news in the daily news, post cahnnel 2,4,5,7,9,11. Chanal 11 being the most objective of the bunch.
I got OUT of journalism when the lies of the LA TIMES, Washington "Times" and such established. Sun Myung MOON is not my idea of political LEADERSHIP for the USA ... RUPERT'S *MUCH* better and owned by the same. Worst we had prior was the NY TIMES. Bottom line, JOURNALISM, The (as Fred Friendly put it in school) ... "The reporter is a PAID WITNESS ... the "5 W's" apply in EVERY assignment. (no trains involved, sorry) ...
BOTTOM LINE though is there;s NEWS and there's FLUFF. Foaming is NOT news. ESPECIALLY when it's "rip and paste" like AP ... :(
The front and rear was signed as A.
At the end of the 4th car or the beginning of the 5th car, there was a yellow S signed. There's a S in yellow circle on the rollsigns??
IIRC that shuttle was in use as recently as July 4, 2001.
Also some shuttle routes use the "Shuttle" designation as opposed to the colored "S" bullet.
The Grand St shuttle is a good place to see all the different "esses," friends of mine have claimed to have seen the 4 car R46 use a Orange S, Yellow S, and Gray S
Who the hell decided the order in which to put those signs? They need to go back to kindergarten and learn the alphabet.
JFK Express
(A) Wash Hts/8 Av/Fulton
(C) 8 Av/Fulton
Concourse/8 Av/Fulton
(E) Queens Blvd/8 Avenue
(H) Rockaway Shuttle
(F) 6 Avenue/Culver
(F) Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver
(G) Queens Blvd Crosstown
(R) Queens Blvd/Bway/4 Av
(R) Bway/4 Av
(R) 4 Av(?)
(S) 63 St Shuttle
(Q) 6 Avenue/Brighton
(Q) Broadway/Brighton
(D) Concourse/6 Av/Brighton
(D) [something else I don't remember]
(B) 6 Avenue/West End (?)
(B) West End Shuttle
Wash Hts/6 Av/West End
(D) Broadway/Brighton
(B) Broadway/4 Av/West End
Astoria/Bway/4 Av(?)/West End
(M) Myrtle Av/Nassau St(?)
(M) Myrtle Av Shuttle
Myrtle Av/West End
(L) 14 St-Canarsie
(S) Franklin Av Shuttle
(J) Jamaica/Nassau St
Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton
(Z)
Where is Not In Service????
I'm sure you wanted to do this:
JFK Express
And I also have seen this on rolls:
(C)8 Avenue Local
(N)Astoria/Sea Beach
(K)8 Av/Wash Hts
For the turquoise blue color, (font color=turquoise). I wonder how much the R32 rollsigns will cost when they are retired, I will make sure I get one of those, especially the older ones [makes me wish I had a Redbird rollsign :-(].
Jimmy
(K) 8th Ave. Local
The rollsigns which would have said "8th Ave/Wash Hts." appeared after the K was eliminated.
When he said that I was like,holy shit!!
That is correct, I own an R-32 sign box.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.dougf.com/media/sub1a.gif
Southern part:
http://www.dougf.com/media/sub2a.gif
The Brooklyn-Queens borough line runs N-S down the center of Eldert La. (formerly known as Elderts La.) between Jamaica and Atlantic Aves. Consequently, numbered Queens avenues become known by Brooklyn names as they cross the line going westward; such as 91st Ave. turning into Fulton St., and 90th Ave. turning into Ridgweood Ave.
One avenue which does not cross Eldert(s) La. is 88th Ave.; it ends/begins there. However, there is a signpost on the western side (the Brooklyn side) of Eldert(s) that displays signs for both Eldert La. and 88th Ave.
So, my question is this: what kind of signs were hanging on that signpost when each borough had its own colors?
Was there a Brooklyn sign, with white lettering on a black background, announcing 88th Ave., a street which does not exist in Brooklyn?
Or, was there a Queens sign, with blue lettering on a white background, standing in Brooklyn?
Ferdinand Cesarano
As far as color, It doesn't really matter what color are the signs as long as the signs are otherwise correct. Maybe when signs were needed to be posted, there were no Queens signs available so they used 2 Brooklyn signs instead. It would be different 105 years ago when Eldert's Lane was the boundry between the City of Brooklyn and the town of Woodhaven. But it's all now one city.
I agree that that is the reason.
As far as color, It doesn't really matter what color are the signs as long as the signs are otherwise correct.
Really? Who says it doesn't matter? It matters to me; that is why I asked.
Maybe when signs were needed to be posted, there were no Queens signs available so they used 2 Brooklyn signs instead.
"No Queens signs available"? Doubtful. They marked it one way or the other -- but surely not due the "unavailablity" of either kind of sign.
It would be different 105 years ago when Eldert's Lane was the boundry between the City of Brooklyn and the town of Woodhaven. But it's all now one city.
Well, yes, I celebrate the fact that we are all one city now. Of course, that is completely irrelvant to my question.
During the 60s and 70s, the boroughs had separate streetsign styles, a system which lasted well into the 80s. (And, as Kevin Walsh has pointed out, a few old signs still remain.) I am curious as to which style (Brooklyn's or Queens's) stood on the Brooklyn side of Eldert(s) La. at 88th Ave. during that period.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I remember the blue-on-white signs in Woodhaven until 1989ish. One still exists on 89th St. as it intersects with 86th Ave.
I remember the blue-on-white signs in Woodhaven until 1989ish. One still exists on 89th St. as it intersects with 86th Ave.
Well, assuming that you meant 86th Road (which is the only "86" that intersects 89th St.), it isn't there anymore. I went past there just tonight to see.
I live in Woodhaven, but I wasn't aware of that old "whitey" on 89th St. I did know, however, of another one around here that disappeared only recently. Up until about two years or so ago, there was a set of "whiteys" at Jamaica Ave. and 88th St.
On the other hand, I'm happy to report that, as of last Saturday, the "whitey" at Highland Blvd. and Vermont Pl., within Highland Park on the Brooklyn/Queens border, is still standing.
Ferdinand Cesarano
An interesting case for many years was the Fulton Street/Eldert Lane boundary. Fulton becomes 91st Avenue at that point but the DOT had white/blue Queens signs on the Brooklyn side, a mistake. So it was the only white/blue Fulton Street sign in the city.
Of course the signs were changed to green/white in the early to mid 1980s, long before the advent of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
So, Kevin, you are saying that there probably would have been a black Brooklyn sign saying "88th Ave.", a street which does not exist in Brooklyn? That would have been wild to see!
An interesting case for many years was the Fulton Street/Eldert Lane boundary. Fulton becomes 91st Avenue at that point but the DOT had white/blue Queens signs on the Brooklyn side, a mistake. So it was the only white/blue Fulton Street sign in the city.
Wow! In one sense, this would be the reciprocal case -- a white Queens sign saying the name of a street that doesn't exist in Queens. But, in another sense it was unique, since it was a sign with the wrong colors for the borough it was standing in. I hope someone out there has a picture!
I used to think that a sign mix-up was happening at the City border with Nassau County. I remember noticing that, at the point where the City line runs down the center of Jamaica Ave. (or, as the suburbanites call it, "Jericho Tpke."), there are a few numbered streets extending south of Jamaica/Jericho, showing their numbers on signage from whatever Nassau location that happens to be (Elmont? Floral Park?). I used to think that this was a mistake, until I realized that, even in Nassau, those streets' names are the numbers.
Anyway, I am real nostalgic for those borough color-coded signs. They had character. It is too bad that they had to be changed to comply with a rule on reflectivity. That just seems so odd -- those signs were light-reflecting, weren't they?
Ferdinand Cesarano
The street signs that I am particularly nostalgicc for are the ones with the raised white lettering on a black background. I would love to find one for St. Marks' Avenue.
Is it your hobby going around posting about things which you know NOTHING about as if it was truth?
It was the Town of Jamaica.
Anybody else have some suggestions for fun things to do with Windows XP Windows Classic Theme Configuration?
Chaohwa
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Well, they're both pretty ugly... but then again that could be said about quite a few of us :-)
In a word, no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
Paul
I see you guys have been misbehaving while I was away...boy, I can't turn my head away for a second without somebody busting my nads? ;)
Sheesh, that some strong words there don't ya think 8-).
Obviously, the trolley maven of Brooklyn and I are NOT related. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a rapid transit aficianado with just a smidgen of trolley-blood in my veins. Bob on the other hand is a diehard overhead wire buff.
I'm disappointed that the trolley didn't happen, but it is possible Diamond had a shot at it and it just didn't work out.
I don't know enough, obviously, to be able to offer any kind of opinion as to his lawsuit (what was in the agreement's fine print?).
Thanks for posting that story.
No, I don't think that's right.
Bob was supose to come up with some matching equity (money, supplies, work). He did obtain a lot of material on his own for next to nothing, and over the period in question & lot of sweat occured.
I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault.
"I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault."
Thurston, I think that you're oversimplifying things. I doubt that NYCDOT has nothing better to do than to harass bob. More likely, from the City's point of view, it would be easier to have the trolley project proceed so that Iris and Chuck could have a photo op at the ribbon cutting ceremony. The fact that NYCDOT is evicting bob indicates that there was some hitherto undisclosed problem that could not be resolved. It is possible that BHRA did not live up to all of its obligations. Did the agreement allow for "sweat equity" to be used as the local match? I'm not sure.
It's easy to blame the City/DOT for this. It's natural for railfans to feel put-upon by the car-centric DOT, but we are not privy to all of the behind the scenes discussions that took place. Now that there's a court case pending, the details will come to light and both the BHRA and NYCDOT positions should become clear. Until then, let's refrain from simplifying this to "City Bad, bob good".
We'll see what happens in court. Hopefully, people will post the proceeedings.
"I think you are a shill for the NYCDOT. Definitely no friend of rail."
Considering some of your past posting, your solely deciding who is or isn't a friend of rail is pretty laughable.
Now, I may not take everything that a politician (or spokesperson for the City) says as factual or accurat, but I won't as far as our friend Selkirk has recently. But, by the same token I won't trash him for his position either.
I've been to Bob's waterfront site and wished him well, not recently though. His plan/goal seemed to make since for the City as well as railfans. No one person/group is at fault here, but I feel I know who put that last straw on the camel's back.
More like the OWNER of the property where Diamond had his operation changed HIS mind and decided that a giant supermarket was more profitable than a trolley line...
I am sorry it didn't work out.
This is an imperfect list. If anyone can add to or subtract from it please let me know.
April, 1953 - all bridge service suspended due to a broken chord.
May 25, 1982 (330PM)-5./29/82 (afternoon) cracked beam, north tracks closed.
July 12-16 and 19-23 weekdays 10AM-2PM north tracks o/s
August 8 - September 25, 1983 south tracks o/s
September 26-November 13, 1983 north tracks o/s
March 10, 1984 for two weeks north tracks o/s
August 10, 1985 north tracks o/s for three months
April 27, 1986 - December 3, 1988 north tracks o/s
December 11, 1988 - September 30, 1990 south tracks o/s
December 27, 1990 - July 21, 2001, (11 years) south tracks o/s
December 27 - March 11, 1991 on most weekends north tracks o/s
July 29, 2002- present (7/14/03) north tracks o/s
There were of course many weekends where tracks were out of service and coverd only by a general order.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbirdr33
Regards,
Frankie Nicholas-Alexander Perez
BTW, excellent platform announcements about this prior to the train's arrival.
So there must of been a service disruption since the W ran express today.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Oh, you mean a "shoe slipper".
Jimmy ;)
- I began the day on the 6:05 A train out of Lefferts, which left at 6:18 with no apparent explanation. Not only was it 13 minutes late, but the guys at Jay St. had the b@lls to hold us there for a "schedule adjustment". Were we not late enough?
- I've HAD it with the volume of the R142 automated announcements. They MUST be lowered. You can't listen to a Walkman or hold a quiet conversation.
- I was on a southbound #4 (in the new #1575!)north of 59th and was delayed for 15 minutes for another mysterious reason. When we got to 59th a passanger got on saying a train dragged a passanger. Is that true? (time aaprox. 1:45 PM).
- Summer day camps should not be given free passes for their children unless they provide enough adults (teenagers are not adults) to keep them well behaved. Unruly day-campers ran over some unfortunate elderly woman on an F train without the slightest hint of discipline.
- Saw 3 consecutive R40M N trains this afternoon, one including the R42 mismatched pair.
- Why does N/R service bunch up so consistently? All day long it's the same story. Downtown, you wait 9 minutes for a jam-packed R train, then have a trailing N train, virtually empty, come in right behind it. Uptown, it's the same thing, only the opposite routes (crowded N, empty R). It's been like this for YEARS!!!
- Saw an R42 L train this afternoon rush. I thought their days won the Canarsie line were over.
- I was on the 15:39 (M)ary out of Bay Parkway. Everything was running smoothly until we got to Pacific. Kids were "surfing" outside the rear car, causing some panicked passanger to pull the emergency brake. The conductor tried in vain to radio the tower to inform them of the problem. Apparently both the tower's and T/O's radio didn't seem to work properly. Neither side could undertand the other and it took 6 attempts by the conductor, the final time shouting into her radio before the tower finally acknowledged and understood what she was trying to say. After charging back up, it was the slow crawl to Dekalb Ave, where we were held again. Apparently a train died at Rector St, rerouting all N/R trains over the bridge. The N/R trains in front of us were being turned around north of Lawrence St, which slowed EVERYTHING to a crawl. It took 22 minutes to get from Pacific St to Broad St!
Otherwise, it was a fun day. I just can't wait for Stillwell Ave to reopen. X-ferring between the N, F, Q and W trains by foot can be exhausting.
I agree fully.
Tho I reckon think the reason for their HIGH volume can be so
sleepy or touristy people wont MISS their stop....
This seems to happen a lot when the BMT has a problem. Last Monday, it took me nearly one hour to get between 57th/7th and Pacific because of a stalled train on the Manny B (which was actually explained to us as signal trouble). Later that same evening, a work train was disabled in the vicinity of 57th/7th, again slowing the entire BMT Broadway line to a crawl, and the W train I was on was turned back at Times Square.
--Mark
Best:
5: 5th Ave/60th St. Colorful, historically accurate mosaics, cute polar bear cutouts.
4: Herald Sq: 13 years later, it still looks great.
3: Union Sq: Simplified infrastructure, tasteful design.
2: Tie 8th St/28th St-Broadway. Beautiful tile work. Both are masterpieces, colorful exceptions in to a normally bland design.
1: 81st/MONH. The upper level is stunning. I actually got off of the train to view the entire station. I'm sorry I didn't bring a camera.
OK, enough of me being a nice guy. Here's my worst:
5: 7th Ave/53rd St. Dark, bland.
4: 161st St/River Ave (IND). Took years to do and that's the best they can come up with?
3: 14th St/8th Ave: Boring, bland, pedantic, dull.
2: Pacific St. Bleech, boring and incomplete. Never did do the mezzanine.
1: Union St/4th Ave. Any rehab of a 4th Ave/Broadway BMT local station which retains the 1970's refridgerator tile is a monumental waste of time, effort and money.
Let me guess, you haven't been there in a while, right?
The old station had filthy round ceilings covered with dirt, and smelly.
The irony is that the refurbished station is just as dirty and smelly.
The refurbished station has brass station sign plates,
Certainly not. I've been waiting for 7's there so many times already. Those sign plates are certainly not brass. I'd imagine they're cheap stainless steel.
clean walls,
Hardly. The MTA painted the walls this pathetic dark gray color. No tiling, no decoration, no nothing. They put no effort on the walls, not to mention much of the walls are now suffering from water damage.
a ADA-acessible elevator,
Which hardly works. Other posters can attest to that. Not one day passes when I see those brightly painted yellow construction pantographs...
and clean ceilings.
I guess I can give you that.
But we are talking stations that are rehabbed, so Chambers and your Sea Beach stations don't count.
If anything, it should be Disliked. The renovated station is full of dirt, its tacky and CPCTC basically pointed everything out so I won't be redundant. Also, I see you like duct tape on the platform floor by the yellow tiles; along with 5 Av [sarcasm].
:-0! It could be a rreal jewel in the subway system but lets be honest, its an eyesore and it would be "good" in the 1970's ;-).
Disagree:
161st Street: It was a typical dull, boring, depressing IND station to begin with. They did preserve the IND feel, and livened it up. I kind of like it.
14th/8th: Another station I kind of like. Again, it was a typical, dull, boring, depressing IND express station. It's very crisp and clean looking. I can't explain it, I just like it. I'm glad they did keep it with an IND feel, I wouldn't have wanted them to "BMTize" it like they did on 8th Ave-L (which by the way I love, but it belongs down there, and now matches the other stations on the line).
Now here's my list of the good, the bad, and the ugly:
Best:
1. 33rd Steet/Lex Line: Truly beautifully done, preserving the great features of the original station, and completing a spectacular renovation
2. Union Square: (see above-all three in complex preserved to original splendor)
3. 81st Street: (see above)
4. 36th Street/4th Ave
5. Most of the renovated Broadway stations (they were a jewel to begin with, and finally have returned)
Honorable mentions: Fulton, Broad, 8th (L), 18th Street (1/9)
The WOrst renovations:
1. Grand Central (7): What the hell is that supposed to be?
2. 23rd St/Lex Line: I know it was done in the late 80's, but what the hell is that ugly orange tile? Can we destroy any more from a historic 1904 station?
3. 137th Street/Broadway: What were they thinking in the late 80's? They actually covered the original pink mosaics and thought that was a good idea?!?!
4. Wall Street 4/5: Okay they preserved the mosaics (one of the first renovations to do so), but can we please get rid of that ugly blue brick?
5. Hoyt: ANother historic station lost under 80's brick.
Honorable mention:
Canal Street BMT local station - This is here, but not because I hate the renovation. I like the new tile they put up. However, they lost their chance to restore the original 1920's mosaics on this one. It had beautiful picture mosaics of the Canal (similar to Union Square), and now they are under two layers of tile (the 70's cement block tile, and now the new tile). I think it's a beautiful renovation, but I hate the fact that they didn't resore the original mosaics.
This is original?
BEST
28th St-Broadway: That artwork sure is cute and interesting to look at
34th St/Broadway/6th Ave: Well kept station, the chimes on the BMT platforms still work.
72nd st/Broadway: Love the new and old headhouses, but would it be nice to restore the interior to it's original splendor on the old one?
Tie; Botanic Garden, Park Place and Franklin Ave: Small but nice warm stations to be in, well lit compared to it's predecessors. Nice control houses at Franklin and Park Place
Astor Place: A worthy NYCT treasure, a replica of an original kiosk entrance on the Uptown side, original paint and signs on both entrances, restoration of the beaver. Only the K-Mart store entrance on S/B side kills what the station was originally intended for.
WORST STATIONS:
3rd Ave/East 149th st: Nowhere in any part of the station does it have any artwork or picture of the 3rd Ave El. That makes it the top of ANY worst station list when you diss the 3rd Ave el.
Grand Central/Flushing platform. Excessive lighting, poor structural work, ugly drabby looking station, LED indicators have wrong information.
7th Ave/53rd St.- Homeless people live in this station, you can understand why, poor wall tiling, dirty floor tiles, you name it.
59th st/Lexington Ave: Narrow staircases (especially on the BMT platform), difficult navgation, limited IRT access at south side, and no elevators make this one tough station to use during rush hour.
BeverLEY and Cortelyou Roads: Sorry I know this is supposed to be the best subway (it still is), but peeling paint, ceiling leakage, narrow stairs, and limited seats on platforms make the station look more ugly than it is. The control houses have bad water seepage on the edge of the stairs and on the stairs themselves. Worst area is north end of BeverLEY road, both platforms.
BEST
1. 81 St/Museum of Natural History -> one of the best renovations ever done
2. 116 St on the 2/3 -> Well done, real bright now! Just 10 years ago it was a straight up eyesore
3. Union Square (Broadway)-> A nice job there, on the whole complex to be honest & has soome nice artifacts
4. Canal St (Broadway) -> They really turned this station around and the moasics are nice on the N/R platform
5. Main St/Flushing -> Real nice
Worst
1. Grand Central -> Very tacky in my view, especially on the 7 sheesh what were they thinking :-\
2. Pacific St -> Just plain & bland
3. Beverley/Cortelyou (Q) -> After JUST 8 years, its falling apart cracks on the floor & is exhausted :-(
4. 7 Av/53 St -> Full of leaks and stains on the floor, bland
5. Tremont Av (D) -> This speaks for itself
Best (1) I have to agree. They put time and effort into it, and wanted to make sure the kids have something to enjoy as they go into and out of the museum. Best (2) nearly turned into a disaster after the original renovators popped a 90 year sewer line redirecting an underground river that Col. Parsons and his crew came across in 1903-04; of course after the madness that was the 1998 Invert Project 116th recovered quite nicely. But that leak at the south end of the station had better be plugged up soon. Best (3) is especially grand since that very steep ramp that led from the Broadway line to the Lexington Av. Line was made more smooth - I just wish they do something about those old abutments over the downtown local track in the Lex side of the station.
Worst (2) Pacific Street, in my view, is one of the better stations on this stretch (if one does not go to the mezzanine level, which is still in progress as is the rest of the station). That some sort of what-passes-for-artwork was added to those damned bland tiles at local stops between Pacific and 36th is more than a waste of money, its a travesty - if I were on the Board I'd have contractors do it again and remove those tiles once and for all! Worst (4) just needs about one or two bad summers and winters before it falls apart totally.
Now on to my list:
Best - 1) 34th Street (Herald Square). Good artwork over the IND platforms, and better lighting and bells and whistles (sic) for the BMT platforms that are even more justifed with the return of express service. The PATH platforms could use some sprucing up though.
2) Main Street. It would be a damn shame if the line were ever extended and they had to break through the walls at the north end of the station. Same thing for Flatbush Avenue.
3) Times Square - PABT. Okay, so its a work in progress. But it looks promising. I'm going to miss the fact that this is no longer one of the greatest mazes in the world, but I'm sure there are many out there that won't. And besides, the "42s" being added to the tilework at the PABT is a interesting departure from the original IND. I especially like the new rotunda for the BMT end (I just hope no one falls over the barriers onto the tracks. Now, if they ever get to the 7 line, the Broadway line, and straighten out the shuttle platforms...
4) Penn Station. They really cleaned up the IND platforms, spruced up the IRT platforms, and that vaulted ceiling for the LIRR side is a nice touch. The new NJ Transit concourse is an especially nice touch. What still needs to be done is the passageway at the south side of the station.
5) Grand Central (Terminal only). As a kid, I never knew that there was a constellation at the terminal's ceiling. Good thing they cleaned it up, and better that they left that spot to show how dirty it once was and should never again be. The new shops and cleaned up chandeliers and columns give the station a railroad feel. Too bad only commuter trains depart from here now. As for the subway station, it's an entirely different story.
Worst - 1) Grand Central (Subway station). Mezzanine over the Lexingtion Avenue lines is too dark and too low - one can feel claustraphobic during rush hour. I agree that a better job can be done for the Flushing line platforms, and the indications for which train going where is too gimmicky - I bet it can't even indicate which train is local and which one is express. The shuttle platform, by far, is about the only highlight of the station, but it too is diminished without the old candystand near Track 1.
2) Westchester Square. Sort of in the same situation that Beverly Road and Cortelyou Road is in. Artwork is dull, no tiles and possibly very slippery exposed concrete at the landing above the street, and hardly anything done to the platform itself.
3) 28th Street/Broadway. Bland.
4) Fulton Street/Bway-Nassau. Did the MTA forget that the IRT (all platforms) was in the same station with the IND and BMT, and that its tileworks may need some sprucing up?
5) Stations with metal tiles covering over the actual ones. They aren't real, and years from now when they will be taken down, whoever is in charge will have the same problem as now. Only in some cases they will be worse. It's a quick fix that will actually be costlier in the long run.
Oh and one more thing: I took a ride on the A out to Rockaway this past Saturday, and was extremely annoyed at the track condition between Hammel's Wye and Mott Av. It seems that it is the same track that it was when I last came out that way in 1999! And I didn't even want to know about the conditions of the stations on this stretch as well. All I know is that Mott Av. station sits beneath an old semi-abandoned building in a not-so-well-to-do neighborhood. I wonder why people out there haven't complained about this in the past 4 years.
What exactly was wrong with the tracks?
I wouldn't say that the track is bad, its the stations and the structure, its full of rust and the stations are pretty dark. I think the Rockaway Park stations got new lighting recently but in general it needs to be spruced up.
Worst
1. 7th Ave
2. 23rd/Lex
3. Boewling Green
4. 3rd/149th
5. 86th/4th
I like the 51st, Wall St and Bowling Green lex stations. They are unique. The tile mosaics on white tile is so commonplace that it's boring. When I went through 51st street for the first time a few months ago, i was pleasantly surprised.
Government backs £10bn Crossrail but stalls for time
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling today said there was a “clear case” for the £10bn Crossrail Line 1 spanning east-west London.
However the legal process which will allow the line to be built will not begin until November 2004. This will disappoint many campaigners, including London Mayor Ken Livingstone, who were looking for the necessary legislation to be initiated before Parliament begins its summer recess on Friday, in order for a Bill to be ready to put to MPs next spring. It will also quash hopes that the scheme could still be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics.
Alistair Darling and Tony Blair today met business leaders at Downing Street to begin a drive for major private sector funding which is essential if Crossrail 1 is to be built. Ministers hope that at least £7bn will be contributed by businesses that will benefit from the new rail link. In a House of Commons written ministerial statement Darling said that if the project were to go ahead there would need to be “a very substantial contribution to its costs” from London’s business community.
The Transport Secretary said he would be assembling an expert team to assess the proposals for the link to ensure they offer “good value” and are “deliverable”. Cross London Rail Links, a joint venture company made up of Transport for London and the Strategic Rail Authority, was granted £154m in 2001 to develop Crossrail plans.
Despite backing Crossrail, Darling indicated that it would be pretty much business as usual for the development team. “I will be asking CLRL to develop their funding and route proposals in more detail,” the Transport Secretary said. He added that CLRL would be asked to undertake a period of detailed public consultation on the route.
More at www.transportbriefing.co.uk
The only way to get private funds for this project is only if same private financiers get a direct benefit from either the rail line or from the investment itself. Can you guarantee that Crossrail will make money and that the investors would get a cut of the profits thereof? Would the financiers get substantial tax breaks in return for providing the funds? Would Crossrail bring new custom or business to these same financiers’ doorsteps? Stuff like that. Privatization has already failed in the UK; Blair, Darling and Co. ought to stop pretending that they can continue dealing with the private sector when it comes to rail projects.
You are probably right. And the price-tag has gone up from £2 billion in 1994 to £10 billion today, according to:
http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=424534&host=3&dir=66
According to the Prime Minister's web site at http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/page4144.asp
"Mr Darling said he would be assembling an expert team to assess the proposals for the link to ensure they offer 'good value' and are 'deliverable'. He also offered Government support for a Bill to take Crossrail forward if it could be proved the rail link was deliverable and viable. London businesses would have to play their part in funding the project."
So Mr Darling has decided that there is a "clear case" for Crossrail, but he doesn't know if it's worth the money!
See also http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=424456&host=3&dir=66
They just lengthened the plats at Auburndale and Bayside to accept 12 cars. Was that a waste of money?
www.forgotten-ny.com
So far this is not nearly so bad as when the M1s came in. The shortages were so bad then (as M1s were pulled for rejiggling) that dozens of trains were cancelled for months. One train (a Brooklyn-Babylon) was cancelled so many times it was dubbed "The Phantom."
If you want an official explanation, send one of those customer comment cards in--they do reply to them.
Michael
Washington, DC
I thought the reason for the cancellation was that car men were on strike. At the time, the employees worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, not the State of New York.
Michael
Washington, DC
Many trains were cancelled but "The Phantom" was, like, the first train to be cancelled on any given day, so it didn't run for months. For a while the MCTA or MTA (I forget whether the name changed yet) considered simply dropping the train from the schedule, but relented under ctiticism.
At the time, NYS already owned the RR, so I doubt anyone still worked under PRR. At any rate, there was no strike issue with the Phantom.
My 8 car unit Monday night WAS an M7!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Robert
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Rapid transit? I think not. No traffic signal preemption. The "dedicated lane" is clogged with cars, with no enforcement.
The MBTA says it's a "big success" becuase it is carrying more passengers than the previous "bus." Why? More frequent service - duh! We wonder how much more ridership there would have been if the MBTA kept its promise to replace the Washington Street El (old Orange Line alignment) with light rail in a dedicated right-of-way, that connects to the existing central subway through the abandoned Tremont Street tunnel that leads to the Boylston Street Station.
Peace
David
I will post a full report as time permits.
-Mark
Robert
A Vermont developer wants to build a few hundred riverfront townhouses on vacant industrial sites in East Providence - provided he can get bus or subway service to Downtown Providence via the abandoned bridge and freight tunnel, unused since 1981.
Trouble is, that tunnel now ends in a parking lot for a new condominium development, one story above street level and several blocks from the heart of Downtown, the elevated structure connecting it with the old Union Station having been torn down in 1986. The Statewide Planning Commission already rejected any reuse of the bridge & tunnel in the latest Transportation Improvement Program. The mayor of East Providence sees the project complete in two years. This should be interesting...
Mark
Mark
I posted some photos last Sunday.
Are you in the city these days?
I went in for a day trip on Monday; I still live in CT. -Nick
My trawl through the internet tells me that the first stock to bear the Metropolitan (Amalgamated) name were the camel-backed locomotives built for the Metropoloitan Line (no relation) in 1905. Thanks Tubeprune.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Last I heard, 6 service was normal (with major delays), 5 trains were running as shuttles between E180 and Dyre, and 4 service was split at 125.
I can see at least 30 Cars (possibly more) in the distance, like a large snake.
-Stef
I was on the last SB 6 express of the morning. It had to run express on the local south of Hunts Point to leave room for 4's to turn. Then it got held up waiting for a 4 that was taking its time to leave 125th.
Rush hour will be interesting.
-Stef
As I left Fulton, northbound, a #6 was entering Fulton going south, in service, but still thinking that it's going to Brooklyn Bridge. No idea where it actually ended up at. Another #6 was parked in the southbound storage track, south of Brooklyn Bridge, and a third #6 was being emptied out on the south side. I got off at BB, and got aboard a fourth #6, parked on the northbound local track, its signs still flashing "last stop". The sign was reset to a Pelham local halfway to Canal.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101000p-91413c.html
You will notice an interesting statement:
"NJTransit officials said it was too early to tell whether a wheel that came off the sixth car of the train was responsible."
DUH!!
"NJTransit officials said it was too early to tell whether a wheel that came off the sixth car of the train was responsible."
DUH!!
They want to determine whether the derailment caused the wheel to come off, or whether the wheel coming off caused the derailment. Things aren't always as simple as they seem at first glance.
Reed, 31, was charged with operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol, said a spokesman for Bronx District Attorney Robert Johnson.
Elizabeth Jordan, a DEA spokeswoman, said, "It's a very tragic situation and our sympathy goes out to the family of Mr. Torres."
She said that Reed, a non-law-enforcement employee in the DEA's city office, was off-duty and driving his own car.
The DEA "has a very strict policy that prohibits employees from driving a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol even when driving a personal vehicle in an off-duty status as was apparently the case in this tragedy," she said.
Torres, a work-train operator who joined the Transit Authority in September 1988, was crossing the Bartow Avenue at Co-Op City Boulevard at 12:25 a.m. when he was hit by the car, which was traveling east on Bartow, police said.
Yesterday, a large white candle in a glass container was left under a tree on the sidewalk just feet from where he died.
On the glass were the words "David, we'll miss you. We love you. Sue, Teena, Jackie and kids."
One of Reed's neighbors at an apartment building on Hutchinson River Parkway described him as "very nice."
"He always greets us when he sees us," said next-door neighbor Joanne Ortiz. "He must be so scared."
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As for the intersection, it is VERY DANGEROUS. Speeding on Bartow Ave is not uncommon and despite the street being well lit at night, it is sad that accidents like this do happen. However, due to the NY State Penal code being a joke compared with New Jersey, Mr. Reed cannot get more than the maximum 15 years for Manslaughter because he was DWI.
I'd say anyone that is operating any type of vehicle (train, bus, or car) should be charged with Murder because the person is aware of the consequences BEFORE hitting the bottle about drinking and driving. Maybe more people will think about that.
I know that, I am not allowed to touch alcohol because of my religious beliefs and during my attendance at a Driving School, we were shown a video about the consequences of DWI during the mandatory 5 hour course.
And if NY is such a joke, how did over 70,000 folks get state paid accomodations in upstate villas?
As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. Being drunk severly limits the ability to form intent. And in most of the civilized world, 15 years is considered very severe punishment. And in NY, Man 1 carries a max of 8 1/3 - 25. And with Patukeys (lack of) parole boards, not many make the first or even second board. Only CR dates allow folks to get out before maxing out.
For example, say you've already seriously injured someone else previously while driving drunk. So then you are presumed to know that your drinking and driving could lead to the death of another but not care.
Why should the accused have a right to appear before a grand jury? The purpose of a grand jury is to determine if the prosecutor has enough evidence to return an indictment. The idea is that if the prosecutor cannot convince a grand jury without anyone presenting evidence for the accused, the accused should not have to stand trial. That is also why the grand jury operates in secrecy, so no one will learn that charges were ever brought against anyone whom they fail to indict.
>>> As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. <<<
Actually many states allow death from drunken driving to be charged as 2nd degree murder based on depraved indifference. The same charge that would be used for firing a gun into a crowd of people with no intent to kill any of them. Before murder 2 can be charged there must be additional facts, including a previous conviction for DUI and having taken a course on dangers of drinking and driving. That provides the proof that the person knew the risks of driving while intoxicated, and that he knew what driving while intoxicated was, and chose to do so anyway.
Tom
But chances are the person won't get charged with murder b/c they were under the influence and that basically brings the maximum penalty down. You're right they DO know the consequences of drinking & driving but we can't do anything about it unless there is some type of reform.
The paper ran a sperad some years back (when this law was passed) on the worst 100 offenders in the state, naming them, their record, and ranking them according to the expiration of their license suspension. The worst offenders would not be elligible to drive until the year 2050.
With the new law, any arrest for DWI will put them in jail for a minimum of five.
Elias
Wow, that is a tough law. It sounds tougher than the Patriot Act. In most states there must be a conviction following the arrest to get that much time. :-)
Tom
At that time of the morning there is barely any traffic so I am really shocked that this could have happened.
Not to reduce the tragedy of the situation but besides from being drunk the driver was probably speeding and Mr. Torres was probably not looking while crossing the street (when there is very little traffic one tends not to).
My condolences to his family.
I believe the major ways that pedestrians are killed through no fault of their own is that they know the vehicle is there but don't expect that the driver will do the incredibly reckless thing that they then do, like going through a red light, failing to yield when turning, or going much faster than the pedestrian thinks.
A friend was killed crossing at a green walk signal on 3rd Ave. An SUV (not drunk) came around the corner on his green light and just slammed into the friend. The SUV driver never imagined my friend wouldn't see him and stay out of the way of the SUV (not that that excuses the driver, since the pedestrian has the right of way).
The friend was nearly blind, not blind enough for a cane, just blind enough not to notice the SUV.
DITTO!
Thank you for telling me about him.
First of all, it was an accident. Was he drunk and breaking the law? Yes. Was he guilty? Yes? But does that make him one of the worst scumbags in the city? Everyone I know who knew Grey said he's a very nice guy. He didn't go out to kill anyone intentionally. Could the same type of accident have happened with a perfectly sober driver? Sure. Gray didn't leave the road or go on the sidewalk. The woman did step out into the road in front of the car. Personally I feel very sorry for Gray and his family. I feel it was a tragedy for all concerned.
Now, if you want to call a drunk driving cop a scumbag think of Sgt Sherman about 15 yrs ago on St Patricks Day. He was a training sgt with two rookies from a Bronx Pct assigned to a detail on Fifth Av in Manhattan on the Midnight to Eight to prevent people from parking on the St Paddy's Day Parade. They spent the whole night drinking in the patrol car and when they were dismissed he started to drive the 2 rookies back to the Bronx Precinct. On Park Av in the Upper East Side he fatally ran over an elderly psychologist and left the scene with the 2 rookies in the radio car and parked it at the Bronx station house as if nothing happened. Unfortunately for him someone took his car number down and the car was found to have blood on it. The two rookies testified for him to avoid prosecution (and was fired of course) and Sherman died in jail about 7-8 years later. Now that's a scumbag!
Now, more importantly, Kool, are you going to the rapid transit weekend this next weekend? I'll probably be there Sunday. And although I know you are mostly into subways, you gotta ride Bklyn car 4573!!
I meant to say "The two rookies testified against him to avoid prosecution..."
May come to Branford for only a few hours on Sunday morning, but I will take you up on your offer for riding #4573, because your posts that I read (and the discussion we had last time I was at Branford) give some nice insight when you were one of NYPD's finest. (Even though this issue is one of those disagreements). However, if it rains heavy, forget it I can't make it.
I was in Seattle for a few days at the time (August 2001), and the story made the local newspaper.
--Mark
*Mystical Chixs not included with package
Big deal! I used to body surf in Long Beach, NY without a belly board.
Tom
--Mark
Well, they are closer than Arizona. :-) Although the Green Line ends at the city of Redondo Beach, it is still an awfully long walk to the ocean, at least a mile or two, and those are not good surfing (south facing) beaches.
Tom
As for the intersection, it is VERY DANGEROUS. Speeding on Bartow Ave is not uncommon and despite the street being well lit at night, it is sad that accidents like this do happen. However, due to the NY State Penal code being a joke compared with New Jersey, Mr. Reed cannot get more than the maximum 15 years for Manslaughter because he was DWI.
I'd say anyone that is operating any type of vehicle (train, bus, or car) should be charged with Murder because the person is aware of the consequences BEFORE hitting the bottle about drinking and driving. Maybe more people will think about that.
I know that, I am not allowed to touch alcohol because of my religious beliefs and during my attendance at a Driving School, we were shown a video about the consequences of DWI during the mandatory 5 hour course.
And if NY is such a joke, how did over 70,000 folks get state paid accomodations in upstate villas?
As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. Being drunk severly limits the ability to form intent. And in most of the civilized world, 15 years is considered very severe punishment. And in NY, Man 1 carries a max of 8 1/3 - 25. And with Patukeys (lack of) parole boards, not many make the first or even second board. Only CR dates allow folks to get out before maxing out.
For example, say you've already seriously injured someone else previously while driving drunk. So then you are presumed to know that your drinking and driving could lead to the death of another but not care.
Why should the accused have a right to appear before a grand jury? The purpose of a grand jury is to determine if the prosecutor has enough evidence to return an indictment. The idea is that if the prosecutor cannot convince a grand jury without anyone presenting evidence for the accused, the accused should not have to stand trial. That is also why the grand jury operates in secrecy, so no one will learn that charges were ever brought against anyone whom they fail to indict.
>>> As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. <<<
Actually many states allow death from drunken driving to be charged as 2nd degree murder based on depraved indifference. The same charge that would be used for firing a gun into a crowd of people with no intent to kill any of them. Before murder 2 can be charged there must be additional facts, including a previous conviction for DUI and having taken a course on dangers of drinking and driving. That provides the proof that the person knew the risks of driving while intoxicated, and that he knew what driving while intoxicated was, and chose to do so anyway.
Tom
But chances are the person won't get charged with murder b/c they were under the influence and that basically brings the maximum penalty down. You're right they DO know the consequences of drinking & driving but we can't do anything about it unless there is some type of reform.
The paper ran a sperad some years back (when this law was passed) on the worst 100 offenders in the state, naming them, their record, and ranking them according to the expiration of their license suspension. The worst offenders would not be elligible to drive until the year 2050.
With the new law, any arrest for DWI will put them in jail for a minimum of five.
Elias
Wow, that is a tough law. It sounds tougher than the Patriot Act. In most states there must be a conviction following the arrest to get that much time. :-)
Tom
Buy as many rides as you want from $4 to $80.
Put $10 or more on your card and receive a 20 percent bonus. For example, a $20 purchase gives you $24 on your card. 12 trips for the price of 10.
You get an automatic free transfer between subway and bus, or between buses.
I got this straight from the MTA's website.
So, let me get this straight. Assuming you swiped into the subway, rode somewhere and left the system, with the 2 hour transfer limit still available, you only get that transfer if you get on a bus or between buses. You can't go back into the subway as it will deduct another fare?
Subway to Bus
Bus to Subway
Bus to Bus
Not allowed: Subway to Subway, EXCEPT the following stations which you can reenter them as a free transfer within the 2 hour period
59th st/Lexington Ave (except 3rd Ave side), 63rd st/Lexington Ave
Court Square (HEET entrance), 45th Road/Courthouse Square/IRT
Coney Island*, Avenue X, 86th st/Sea Beach line, Brighton Beach*
*-A second transfer is allowed if using the B68 bus before re-entering at either station.
Note: On the above stations, rentry is only allowed once and there is no additional transfer for a bus. I don't know if an allowance is applied to the Staten Island buses or SIR from the St. George ferry terminal.
Once you enter the subwaystarting a trip, you have 2 hours from the time the card was used to transfer to a bus. Not counting Kool's list above.
Also, add the 51-53/Lex complex (all entrances) to your list.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I have not been able to find the numbers for the grades on that line, not even from extensive use of various search engines. Having used the Essex Street station recently, I was rather struck by how steep the grade out of the station onto the Williamsburg Brige appears from halfway down the platform—visually, from that angle, it seems to be no less than ten percent at the very least. How steep is the grade in actuality? Thanks in advance…
Initially, and maximally, leaving Essex the grade is 4.6% at the portal. (Leaving Marcy for Manhattan, the grade is 2.75%.)
Robert
Thanks for the replies. 5.5 percent is two-tenths of a percent steeper than the ruling grade on Saluda (former Southern Railway, closed last year by NS) which used to be the steepest US grade upon which freight trains ran, at 5.3 percent. How much of a strain are these grades on the subway trains? They seem to take them with not a lot of effort.
River tunnels rarely have such steep grades because the tracks can get gradually deeper as they approach the water. After all, the PATH stations at WTC, Exchange Place, Christopher, and Pavonia are all quite deep. Amtrak is quite deep at Penn station already. Usually the stations just before a tunnel are deep.
But with Canal being underground and quite near the west end of the MB, and the MB being as high as it is, there's no place to put the grade but right on the bridge approach.
John
-- Ed Sachs
3% leaving Grand Central; 4.5% leaving Vernon-Jackson.
At that time of the morning there is barely any traffic so I am really shocked that this could have happened.
Not to reduce the tragedy of the situation but besides from being drunk the driver was probably speeding and Mr. Torres was probably not looking while crossing the street (when there is very little traffic one tends not to).
My condolences to his family.
I believe the major ways that pedestrians are killed through no fault of their own is that they know the vehicle is there but don't expect that the driver will do the incredibly reckless thing that they then do, like going through a red light, failing to yield when turning, or going much faster than the pedestrian thinks.
A friend was killed crossing at a green walk signal on 3rd Ave. An SUV (not drunk) came around the corner on his green light and just slammed into the friend. The SUV driver never imagined my friend wouldn't see him and stay out of the way of the SUV (not that that excuses the driver, since the pedestrian has the right of way).
The friend was nearly blind, not blind enough for a cane, just blind enough not to notice the SUV.
DITTO!
So the teaser is this: How can you get from Point A to Point B and return to Point A, while making 3 different transfers, and the transfers cannot be among subway lines inside the fare control areas? You are allowed transfers from subway to bus, bus to bus, but you cannot transfer from one subway line to another without exiting the system. And a total of THREE transfers must be used.
Good luck!
Take that Canarsie bus, then L and 4 to 59th/Lex, exit to street, get back in for free because of the nature of Lex/59 station, and reverse the route.
You don't have to use 59th st/Lex, you can use ANY station because you started you trip by bus, took the bus to the L WITHOUT using the card. Rode the trains anyway you want, getting out and making sure you got back in by "transferring" (using the transfer on your card 2 hours from the start of the bus ride.) and then went back to Rockaway Parkway for the bus ride home.
BTW: It's the B42 bus that runs to/from the Rockaway Parkway/BMT station.
Or how they are accomplishable?
If the customer uses their MC the free transfer gets used up, so our driver issues a paper transfer for the bus to bus move.
The "official" 3 legged transfers are in "the tables", so the MC gives two free transfers.
Is that it?
Jimmy
One of the regulars on the Strappies board posted the information.
I went to the sight and lo and behold they started to build it during 1920 and 1925 (it was planned as far back as 1905).
Parts of it are now used for water pipes.
There are pictures and information at:
http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html
Mark
Mark
Mark
The nice thing about Cincinnati transit planning is that the new bus proposal, which *could* work, calls for large outlying transfer nodes which could stimulate development and will make bus transit much more convenient. The bus planners have their thinking caps on, and can jump either way, with or without rail transit.
Thank you for telling me about him.
First of all, it was an accident. Was he drunk and breaking the law? Yes. Was he guilty? Yes? But does that make him one of the worst scumbags in the city? Everyone I know who knew Grey said he's a very nice guy. He didn't go out to kill anyone intentionally. Could the same type of accident have happened with a perfectly sober driver? Sure. Gray didn't leave the road or go on the sidewalk. The woman did step out into the road in front of the car. Personally I feel very sorry for Gray and his family. I feel it was a tragedy for all concerned.
Now, if you want to call a drunk driving cop a scumbag think of Sgt Sherman about 15 yrs ago on St Patricks Day. He was a training sgt with two rookies from a Bronx Pct assigned to a detail on Fifth Av in Manhattan on the Midnight to Eight to prevent people from parking on the St Paddy's Day Parade. They spent the whole night drinking in the patrol car and when they were dismissed he started to drive the 2 rookies back to the Bronx Precinct. On Park Av in the Upper East Side he fatally ran over an elderly psychologist and left the scene with the 2 rookies in the radio car and parked it at the Bronx station house as if nothing happened. Unfortunately for him someone took his car number down and the car was found to have blood on it. The two rookies testified for him to avoid prosecution (and was fired of course) and Sherman died in jail about 7-8 years later. Now that's a scumbag!
Now, more importantly, Kool, are you going to the rapid transit weekend this next weekend? I'll probably be there Sunday. And although I know you are mostly into subways, you gotta ride Bklyn car 4573!!
I meant to say "The two rookies testified against him to avoid prosecution..."
May come to Branford for only a few hours on Sunday morning, but I will take you up on your offer for riding #4573, because your posts that I read (and the discussion we had last time I was at Branford) give some nice insight when you were one of NYPD's finest. (Even though this issue is one of those disagreements). However, if it rains heavy, forget it I can't make it.
I was in Seattle for a few days at the time (August 2001), and the story made the local newspaper.
Going Loco, a collection of bizarre and barmy train tales.
I found this one most amusing:
Some years ago a friend and I were travelling from Sheffield to Barnsley when the train ground to a halt. The guard explained there was a cow on the line. My friend asked the guard, why it couldn't just be picked up and thrown over the hedge, which earned him an odd look. "Are you a farmer?" asked the guard. "No, I'm a graphic designer. What's that got to do with anything?" retorted my friend.
He was getting some very strange looks from other passengers. "They don't move by themselves," continued my friend, who has always had a bit of a warped sense of humour. He was soon locked in an exchange with an elderly lady who took issue with this statement.
All of a sudden we heard an almighty bang and a train coming the other way thundered past, having smashed into the cow. "Brilliant," says my friend, "I hope that knocked the stuffing out it." His heartlessness really irritated other passengers and when we finally got to Barnsley two ladies gave him a dressing down. As we walked to the pub, I said I hope it didn't suffer too much. "What suffered?" he asked. "The cow on the line," I said. "A cow! It was a cow!" he shouted. He looked mortified with embarrassment. "For God's sake, I thought he said couch!"
Andrew.
On a lighter note, I'm reminded of Tom and Ray Magliozzi (The Car Guys) who say the best way to bring about responsible use of energy is to burn up all the oil as fast as we can so that we'll be forced to embrace the alternatives.
Mark
Mark
We're gonna "figure out how to make said technologies work optimally" LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG, before we completely run out of oil.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
That's what the people on Easter Island thought...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030721-464406,00.html
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=31724
Wayne
Quite the opposite, THIS is a real trip, the MOD trips were fabricated and unnatural. If all you do is ride "MOD-like" trips, then you aren't railfanning the NYC Subway system, you are just riding some old cars around. And were you on the MOD trips at all?
Also, there were for sure "creepy photo-taking guys" on the railfan trip today. I'll be on it later.
Me? Bah.
I had no intention of going. I was just trying to straighten out
the SPECIFICS and DETAILS for the unspoken 'lurkers' amongst us
(in case THEY had a free day or few hours to ride).
Last night was really the journalist in me, talking. Asking for
details and specifics... the brah saying "456 mezzanine" is bland to all hell.
(THAT mezzanine is HUUUUUUUUUGE, bub!--- unlike Yawnkee Stadium,
there's always MORE THAN 1 person standing in that mezzanine area.)
So the specs were vague and unprecise...
OTOH, if I happened to be downtown, I, too would want to know EXACTLY where
the rizzide was leaving from....
Thanks for the bark.
;)
That leaves voting for soemone else in the next election.
Unanimous decision indeed. More like unanimous payoff.
While you were doing that, you missed a bigger story - Silverstein wants Libeskind to move the 1776 foot tower closer to downtownm and wants to place an extra tower on the transit hub. Libeskind doesn't like the idea; there's a meeting set to resolve it.
The MTA got to hide those ones. The ones that came to light were quickly excused and even countenanced by Hevesi (probably pressure from above). It's either "We the People" or "We the Sheeple", choose soon…
seriously now, Dude, ranting like that is fun, but it isn't productive, because there isn't an informed discussion going on here.
Now, if all you want to do is rant, and it makes you feel better, OK. But if you want to dig up and then list here the revenue sources MTA uses, and break them down for us, and then advocate for the ones which could take the place of a fare hike, then we'll all learn something.
I like a lot of the stuff Gene Russianoff does, but this clearly was aimed at building membership and money through grandstanding.
Plus, you don't need to pay two bucks. MetroCards (except the Fun Pass) offer steeper discounts than they did prior to the fare hike. Do a little budget planning, and you're paying less than $1.40 for your ride. Plus, by November, if all goes according to plan, you can get Insured Monthly MetroCards which are replaceable if lost.
Is CityTicket active now on LIRR?
No, The Rumor Is January and then, only on weekends, initially.
Peace,
ANDEE
How's that? That's certainly true for some people with certain riding patterns, but for many of us there's no way to pay less than $1.67 per ride.
Referenda are wonderful if people have the attention to deliberate and reason. They can lead to shameful results otherwise.
You forgot to mention that they also believe income taxes are evil. Thus, they leave no alternative to the property tax.
The MTA needs a real increase in the average per ride fare to get money for needed capital improvements to increase capacity. A more equitable rise in the cost of monthlies and weeklies would do this.
But what am I saying? I've been in New York for 21.5 years, enough time to see the BS that is NY state politics.
The judgement notes that the MTA is allowed a certain amount of discretion in how it performs its accounting, and in fact should be taking a multi-year view according to state law.
Therefore, all that happened here is NYPIRG and Toussaint wasted our money.
John
Sadly, I was chuckling at those who actually thought the fare hike would be overturned and was quite surprised that it was successful at the first legal bus stop along the way.
The decision noted that the plaintiffs didn't dispute this contention. And they essentially ruled that the plaintiffs had neither right nor power to micromanage how the MTA does its financial planning
So basically the Strappies are playing Hylan--using fare demagoguery for their own political aggrandizement.
There's no reason to be surprised. The same thing happened last time. They changed the tokens the last time they hiked fares. I forgot who challenged them, it was probably Strappies again. They won the first round, and before the first judge's decision was reversed the token booths were actually buying back the new tokens! That lasted only a day or two.
Interesting. I explained the Straphanger's complaint to a person with financial expertise but no train knowledge a while back. He said in his opinion the MTA should have amortized the one-shot windfall over MANY years, not the 2 years over which they did amortize it or the 1 year over which Straphangers and Hevesi said they should amortize it.
#3 West End Jeff
The ruling came from the top court in New York State.
The only place the Strappies can go is the Federal Courts, who will refuse them.
Actually, the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court, which issued the ruling, is not the highest state court despite its name. The Court of Appeals is the highest.
#3 West End Jeff
Have you read it? Have you found any faults in its reasoning? Would you care to share them with us?
Biggest faults I find in there are the appellate court’s conclusions that a government agency (the MTA) should have absolute control over the decisions on where and how to allocate their funds with absolutely no accountability to the traveling public, and that the courts system should continue with same “laissez-faire” attitude despite the removal of checks and balances and the potential for abuse by same government officials in charge of the MTA. I further disagree with the courts that it would incur too great of an “additional expense” for the MTA to engage in “total transparency” of its accounting practices. I question the very constitutionality of such laws, which give the MTA too much power.
So you have a couple of choices:
1) Wait to see what the NY Supreme Court says if the appeal reaches it
2) Contact your elected officials and ask them to change the law.
Mind you, even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't necessarily want to change the law, ubless I could control the introduction of amendments. For example, suppose somebody included a provision to strip the toll bridges away from MTA? The result would remove a major funding source from the subway.
The courts don't make law; they merely interpret existing law. If you think the law is flawed, speak to your legislators. The five judges who ruled in this case didn't express their opinion of the law -- they merely stated that the MTA was in compliance with it. They did not have the authority to rule according to what they happen to think the law should be.
I question the very constitutionality of such laws, which give the MTA too much power.
Then raise a constitutional challenge. (I can't imagine what the content of the challenge would be, but I'll leave that up to you.) The petitioners didn't challenge the constitutionality of the law; they simply claimed that the MTA was in violation. The courts disagreed. End of story, unless the Court of Appeals disagrees with the Appellate Division.
Of course we all knew the MTA wasn't going to roll back fares in the first case and the MTA knows they would have alot to loose and theyre not that dumb so all of the above will never NEVER happen.
That means you, pal :0)
Plus, in NY, the Three Guys in That Room in Albany serve as writers, directors, and choreographers.
Given the government was the party appealing I do not think they are inclined to bribe. But I said there were other grounds, so let me explain.
One way is to assume the judges here agreed completely with the trial judges but suspected the state's highest court would eventually rule for the MTA. Suspecting they would be reversed if they themselves did not reverse the lower courts they went ahead and reversed. If you want to get into conspiracy theory, actually, consider that the MTA was represented by the husband of the Chief Judge of the state's highest court. Coincidence?
Or look at it in terms of "judicial restraint". A more open process like that advocated by Judge York in the straphanger's trial is something that I think everyone is for or should be for. But the appeals judges want the state house to do this and not Judge York (or any other judge). Will the process become more transparent without judicial pressure? Can it? That is an important question.
Reading the other responses I think I am in the minority that thinks the appeals court got it wrong on the transit suit (I think they got it right on the tolls for the reasons given by them. The statutes are very different). I think a fare hike will be needed but I also feel that a more transparent process would be in the good interests of everyone. So I honestly don't think the proposed remand to the MTA for new hearings would have been that bad. Now some people will feel they were deceived or at least there will always be a dark cloud over this fair hike that reduces trust in the MTA. That is valuable capital for future projects. In battling NIMBY's the MTA needs all the help it can get and all the trust it can inspire. NIMBY's will point to the way in which this fare hike came to be as a sign that you can't trust the agency. Could our favorite projects even when funded by monetary capital be done in by a lack of trust? This is why I feel new hearings should have been held.
But we don't have to share a man's biases to agree with the result. For example, the ku klux klan strongly believes Al Sharpton would make a bad president. If someone agrees with that conclusion do they have to assume those biases or pretend there are not any biases?
We all have our prejudices, our biases. Do you think that the political backgrounds of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices had an impact on how the 2000 Presidential Election court cases were decided? Look at Earl Warren's record before he became Chief Justice, particularly in California in the 1940s, and then look at his record once he was on the Supreme Court. Given what's been going on over the last few weeks, can you imagine the prayers that Pat Robertson would be directing his way?
The point is this: the Straphangers, or other groups will always find a judge who is sympathetic to their cause on matters such as this. They did last time; they did again this time in Judge York, who, by his words, was clearly on their side (go back and read the newspaper articles on him before he reached his decision). The fact that yesterday's decision was unanimous (and I don't believe that all of the judges were Pataki appointees) may speak to what they feel was the quality of their reasoning, and will have an impact on how this case proceeds in court from this point forward. If they achieved their initial victory through a possibly biased decision, then they shouldn't complain when the call goes against them. You can't have it both ways.
To go back to your example about Justice Black what motivated him to write his opinion for the supreme court in the Japanese internment case? Was it that he did not like Japanese people? Was it that he did not want to write an opinion condemning the man who appointed him (President Roosevelt)? Was it patriotism?
Or take one of the famous cases of actual bribery. Judge Martin T. Manton of the federal Court of Appeals here in the 2nd Circuit, a very prestigious court, was bribed and none of his colleagues suspected it as motivating the opinions he wrote or the suggestions he gave others (Appeals judges generelly sit on panels). Or in our own times, Bush v. Gore. We can read the opinions just fine but it again is difficult to guess at what exactly motivated them. Suspicion of deception (not bribery-I think that charge is unsubstantiated) may hurt the MTA in the long run and it is for that reason I would have rather seen new hearings held to authorize the fare hike to give it a legitimacy that it now lacks. I hope that opponents of our favorite projects do not take up this argument.
As a matter of what people should expect of judges I think we kid ourselves if we assume there are no biases or pressures on judges whose opinions we like (and the opposite on those we do not like). What we should hope for is judges who are conscious of those biases so that they can keep an open mind when judging.
That is a job left to the state legislature. The decision made this point. It is not for the judges to impose new rules on the MTA.
So I honestly don't think the proposed remand to the MTA for new hearings would have been that bad.
There are no grounds for new hearings, given that the MTA violated no laws in the hearings they did hold.
No.
The appeals judges followed the law of the State of New York. The lower court judge did not.
I really like this one in particular (R68A on the Q over the bridge)...your shots are nice overall...once you acquire more skills and keep practising, you will get better and better over time...
Incognito
Mark
Ugh, from using only 'analog' disposable cameras, how do you create that blur effect. I assume a computer, yes?
Mark
Subject matter & angle are just fine, but most of the photos are too dark.
til next time
1) For the BMT Jamaica el, Fulton Street narrows and becomes less busy
east of Crescent Street, and for the BMT Fulton el, Pitkin Avenue does the same east of Euclid Avenue, hence the jog northwest to wider, busier streets more suitable to having an el line over them.
2) At the Brooklyn-Queens border in this area, the northern boundary
of residential streets shifts north from Jamaica Avenue west of Elderts Lane in Brooklyn to Park Lane South east of Elderts Lane and Dexter Court in Queens. Hence the jog northwest of the two BMT Eastern
Division els to reduce walking distance from homes to stations.
It's also been suggested to me that part of the reason might have been
to reduce walking distance for visiting the cemeteries that border on
Jamaica Avenue between Highland Blvd. and Cypress Hills St.
Please comment. Thank you in advance.
Fulton Street peters out shortly after Crescent. Beyond Crecent Jamiaca Ave. is the main drag of the area, becoming Jericho Turnpike, the Middle Counry Road and extending unbroken to Greenport (with a jog to Orient). So it was a natural place for the el to go.
I assume the extension of the Fulton el (also Dual Contract) beyond City Line was a similar issue.
-- Ed Sachs
Wasn't the Jamaica Plank Road privately owned at the time the el was built? Also, the Jamaica Horse Car Railroad was already running on it, taking passengers to the Union Race Course.
Most sources I've read place the Jamaica Plank Road's demise much later. The 4 July 1897 issue of the Brooklyn Eagle (page 15) has an interesting article regarding the then existing Plank Road and its toll houses.
http://www.richmondhillhistory.org/JamaicaAve.html
The 1897 date is correct. Just because a library's collection ends in 1888 does not mean that the company had no further existence. :-)
The Lex Ave El ran to VanSiclen in 1885 (and Cypress Hills in 1893), well before the Jamaica Plank Road's demise.
There were surface tracks on the Jamaica Plank Road before 1897.
http://www.nycrail.com/bmt/historical_myrtle_el.htm
How do you know that the color photo from sidewalk level included in
your post is indeed the Fulton El over Pitkin Avenue ?
Well, it's clearly the Fulton St. el. Karl B, our resident old-timey expert confirmed that. The street appears to be too wide to be over Euclid Ave.
---jon
(Dave, feel free to add it to your collection, if you like.)
don't y'all just love loopholes? ;-)
--jon
So, according to your Bombardier tour guide, AirTrain JFK might charge $3 from the outset, as opposed to $5 (but we don't know for sure yet)...
That would change the economics a little.
The EWR Air Train surcharge is $5 for NJ bound travelers and $7 dollars for NY bound travelers.
I noticed it at 59th Street when, after the doors closed, the T/O put his head out the (left-side) window and looked back. (Of course, with the curve, he couldn't see past the second or third car, and there are no monitors at the T/O position.) I didn't see anyone in either cab at the C/R position.
The B train behind it did have a C/R.
Robert
Needless to say, the conductor got a roto-reaming.
I'm surprised if it has happened since ... but not very. People DO make mistakes. Although some are perfect I suppose, and don't. :)
Robert
Why would the T/O be looking back at the action on the left side of the train after the doors were closed? Isn't the T/O usually on the right side of the train after the doors are closed, except with OPTO?
No, they don't allow it -- that's why I found it so startling.
Weekend N trains and late night R trains do not run OPTO. On my Sea Beach trip on Sunday, I was chatting with one of the C/R's I know. He was complaining that Stillwell gives the N trains at 86th st a "push", that is they leave a minute or two before their scheduled time, and when he arrives at 36/4, master tower puts the holding lights on him because he was running hot.
As does the late night Lefferts shuttle.
-Dave
John
And I have happin to have the copy of the todays Staten Island Advance and here's something that was not on the online verison that I have scan and it's related to what they talking about
What you're seeing (and I'm seeing it as well) may be remnants of this weekend's GO, which also sent an R-142 set to the 3. Those cars were never transferred to the 3 at all; they just ran there temporarily.
Subway conductor Eric “Badlands” Booker won third place, eating 29 hot dogs. Ed "Cookie" Jarvis of Long Island broke the American record, taking second place with 30 and a half hot dogs.
Entire story here: the story
(V) no service
(Q) BB-(via bridge)-(6Av)-(53St tunnel)-FH Brighton Express; Queens Local
NYCT's proposal for service next year has a yellow Q and an orange B on the Brighton line. While anything can change between now and then, I think it's highly unlikely that the orange Q will return.
The (B) on Brighton (Local?) instead of (D)? New for me.
Where did you find it?
It's been posted here many times in recent months. NYCT held a hearing about it last month; the information was included in the hearing announcement.
My train might as well have been a local. It would still arrive at Main st at the same time.
T TRAIN INFORMATION NEXT TRAIN TO SURBURBAN STATION
DESINATION TIME NUMBER TRACK
If anyone has the train desination readings on where the T train terminates, please post it.
Thats all the ones I know.How about consulting a map at www.mbta.com
If you are askking where the MBTA Commuter Rail goes from South Station (and North Station), look here.
If you want to read about the South Station announcer, look here.
If anyone knows what the desination terminal readings are on the T Train Information Next Train to Surburban Stations bigboard at South Station, please post it.
NEWARK CITY SUBWAY
Much work is underway at Pennsylvania Station both in the mezzinine area and at track level. Passengers now board outbound cars on Track 1 from the inside platform. (The one between tracks 1 & 2). The former outbound platform for track one in undergoing extensive rebuilding. Work is also being done to the inbound platform on track 5.
EXCHANGE PLACE
There is a dispatchers/security booth in the passageway connecting the east and westbound platforms with lighted display board for the Exchange Place and new WTC Interlocking. It seems as though the temporary station at WTC will have six tracks. If you get a chance take a look at it.
The platforms at Exchange Place have been lengthened to hold ten car trains. However only eastbound trains can fully use this. Westbound trains to Newark can platform ten cars but the Hoboken trains will probably be limited to six since the switch for the Hoboken trains is about one car length in from the edge of the station.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
The same thing was done with the old Exchange Place station too. Newark trains were eight cars long, and the switch was exactly one car length's into the station on the westbound side. Newark trains crossed the switch fully, before stopping. Hoboken trains stopped right at the points.
There was a NYCsubway-esque display mounted at the wall in front of the conductor position. As soon as a departing Hoboken train crossed the points it would flash "DO NOT OPEN THE FRONT CAR". I suppose that was for the eventuality of an 8-car Hoboken train, which would have to cross the switch before stopping, and the first car would have to remain closed.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The train was heading uptown to Parkchester Av (One day they will fix that). The strip maps were #5 type.
What's going on? I got the impression that the #6 would be exclusive to the R142A's.
To make things even stranger the R142A that I got on which was going to Pleham Bay had #4 strip maps. I only got the numbers of the front 5 cars 7721-7725 (7725 was in the lead).
Since the problem seemed to be on the NB 4/5 track, many 4 trains were turning at 3rd Avenue on the 6. I guess one remained in service.
-Stef
But anyway I'm glad to see the gang had a great time today. Nothing like a SubTalker Bash to get you through the day right?
-Stef
6 TO PARKCHESTER-177(ST)
"The name of the TV character, seen here."
I do believe the image I have linked to is the actual image used on tonight's show.
Also, here is Final Jeopardy! from tonight, a question that two of the three contestants missed.
Category: The Cabinet
"The Federal Emergency Management Agency, Secret Service, and Coast Guard are all under this cabinet department."
And Final jeopardy was "What is Homeland Security?"
He came from the back of my head and the front of my name.
:-)
2) What is the Department of Homeland Security
Jimmy
I've railfanned on foot and by car, by foot it's very flexible, but much too slow, and my car it's fast, but too hard to get into places, everything is dependent upon your ability to find a parking spot, not a certain thing in an urban setting. I have a cheap Huffy 15 speed mountain bike, which while not the best bike ever made (it has a very poor shifting system) certainly gets me where I want to go.
Anyone else have any railfanning via bike stories?
BTW: Slightly off topic, but it would appear that there will be a bike trail along the east bank of the Schuykill River between Spring Garden and Chestnut St, with a ramp up to Market and Chesnuts Streets. This could be a real boon to those who want to catch the rare freights that roll through the tunnel there.
Speaking of which, I wanna get a nice pic of my car with the subway in the background. Any idea the best location to do such a thing?
Or park on the shoulder.
But now that I think of it, there's a roadway under the Jamaica Yard approach, isn't there? You could try that sometime in the early morning when they'd be likely to take trains out of the yard to put into service.
Here's the one you're thinking of:
(The first two were taken during a GO that routed all Jamaica-bound trains through the yard, so there was a lot of traffic. The third was taken from a MOD train.)
While I was there, I noticed an MTA Engineer's office right across the street in what must have been an old store or house the TA just descided to buy and use as an office. Unfortunately it wasn't in that great of shape, so I didn't take any photos of it (I would have looked pretty weird doing so).
I think it would be interesting to bike along the ROW of an actual railroad like you did, but in NYC that's tough since Amtrak/LIRR are generally either elevated or underground, and going out to Long Island or points north would take too long by bike.
But other than that, very very nice shots. I didn't take a camera with me down there, it really was just a 'get out of the house' trip, I wanted to scout out how to get to some good photography spots. Perhaps later this week I'll go out with a camera. To tell the truth the only two trains I saw were Silverliners over by Arsenal, very cool cause if you go back behind the HUP parking garages you're right at grade with the tracks, I might have to bring a milk crate on my bike to see over the fences. But it was getting dark and I don't have a light for my bike, so I had to get back.
BTW: I was down by the university St bridge, theres a massive building called the 'Module VII Chiller' you (or anyone else out there) wouldn't happen to know what it is, would you?
I don't know about the 'Module VII Chiller'; I haven't been near the tracks at University Ave and Arsenal Tower for 25 years, except for riding past on SEPTA and AMTRAK trains.
When I lived in Brooklyn, I went to all my favorite locations by bike. You could pull off anywhere to watch and photograph, which you can't do in a car.
Longest railfanning bike trip--Brooklyn-Staten Island-Newark-Manhattan-Brooklyn.
My dad was pretty tolerant of my wanderings, but when he found out how far I went by bike without telling him, I was grounded for a week.
Huh? Um, run by whom? You don't know how many times I've wished for that. And not only to S.I. I'd love to see a "Brooklyn Annex" line, from downtown Brooklyn to Jersey City or Hoboken. You can actually DO that trip, kinda, now, by transferring to another boat in Manhattan. It's viable but kludgy. I'm hoping for a direct run. With all the new offices going up along the Hudson there could very well be a market for Brooklyn workers going over. I think if there were a serious attempt to re-instate Bklyn/S.I. ferries it would have to be more a regional thing. Maybe re-start the Tottenville/Perth Amboy ferry to enable a nice long pedestrian-friendly cross regional corridor. I done that route and similar dozens of times on foot. But the lack of access from western S.I. to Jersey is a p.i.t.a. You can stand there and see the NJ side but unless you drive or hitchhike over (done it plenty of times...) it's really out of the question. Except for Bayonne of course. One day I was stubborn so I made my way over to the final entrance to the Outterbridge Crossing from local streets and hitched a ride over the bridge and walked to Princeton Junction. But that's another story...
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/BrightonLine/brighton0012
Also, have any of you used those attachments that I saw advertised a lot in the 80s that let you ride your bike ON THE RAILS?
You can take bikes on SEPTA trains off-peak, too. The best for bikes are the Portland MAX trains. They have bike hooks on the ceilings of the LRVs so you you can hang your bike up and out of the way of other passengers. I saw a bike policeman use it once when I was there.
Mark
Yes.
The ride parrallels the A to Mott Avenue pretty much the whole trip. You get two great views: one of the ocean and another of the concrete vidaduct and occasional passing "A" Trains. A camera with a good zoom will get you some memorable shots.
Another recommended bike/rail excursion can be done via LIRR to Montauk Point. I have a MTA bike permit and have taken one of those nice long trips out to Montauk with the bike for a great day-trip. From the train station you get to bike Rte 27 (Montauk Highway) out to the literal "end" for some great ocean vistas, or the famous lighthouse tour. Be prepared for some serious hills along the way...definitely not for the novice biker.
I was 10 yrs 9 mos. It was a few blocks on the Church Ave. but by my 11th birthday I was hitting the entire city.
Anyway, I first railfanned at 12 years old in 1997 [I'm 18 now].
My first railfan trip was on the A or C from Columbus Circle to somewhere in Brooklyn. When I got home, I was greeted by the cops and a very worried father, even though I was only out an hour longer than expected.
When I was in 8th grade, our social studies teacher asked how many of us had been on the subway by ourselves. A bit less than half the boys and maybe a quarter of the girls.
If I had begun railfanning just a few years later than I did I would have missed so much ... gate cars, triplxes waiting to take Dodgers fans home, trolley buses on St. John's Place, the original Newark extension cars on the H&M, the Polo Grounds shuttle, 46 (count 'em) 46 trolley lines in Pittsburgh ... and on ... and on ...
Took the 1 from 225th to doctor's office at 72nd Street.
I was told to go to doc's and come back straight home.....
................ you gotta BELIEVE I did the Express dip (96 to Chambers)
before I went skipping back home like a good little brah.
0 : )
My first time ever was 1981, which had me at 4 years.
Dad would take me out every Saturday to ride the 1 roundtrip
from 225 to SF to 242 VCP back to 225... (at the RFW, no less).
I remember R12/R14/R15/R17/R21/22/R26/28/29 cars all on the 1
The thread said FIRST TIME.
The post said ON YOUR OWN.
(That explains my doing a RE DUX!!)
My last trip was Memorial Day weekend when I rode the Morris and Essex Lines to both terminals, Dover and Monclair.
I was already using the many alternative routes in Paris so I can ride more metro lines to get anywhere. I organised my first "class metro-fan trip" by the time I was ten. That trip got cut short because many of my classmates enjoyed too much their first encounter with the East side of Paris and we ended up cancelling the rest of the journey and stayed in the Bois de Vincennes. I was one of the very few in the Japanese school to live on the East side of Paris. My plan was easily approved by our class teacher back then, but later I learnt that my neighbourhood was classified as "not a place to visit" by the school. LOL!
Anyone who knows the history of the R7/9s on the Eastern Division, based on the date I stated above, knows exactly why that R7/9 never appeared.
I still remembered what I did. After waiting over an hour, I boarded an "LL" of R27-30s, took that to Union Square, transfered for the "N" of R46s, took that to 34th St and transferred to the "D" of R32s.
I remember that the "LL" stations north of Bway-Junction were some of the nastiest, damp stations I have every seen.
At the same time, I was travelling more for my job and foudn myself using transit a lot to go adventuring in strange cities. My first MARTA ride was a good example. I had an unexpected six-hour layover in Atlanta, and so instead of sitting around the airport I decided to ride the train downtown. The MARTA ride was my favorite part of the whole adventure. I was taken instantly by the clean and attractive system, a big change from my usual SEPTA. From then on I tried to ride MARTA every time I had a flight through Atlanta.
I think the first time I went for a ride just to railfan was on my way back from New York. I stopped in Newark to ride the PCCs before they were retired. I rode the entire line and back. I think later that year I did my second such trip, when I rode to Baltimore to ride its subway. I include both of these trips because when I rode the Newark City Subway, I had been in New York for other reasons. When I went to Baltimore, I had no other business there and didn't do anything but ride trains and take pictures.
Mark
Anyway to answer the question, back when I was less than 4, I would ride on the Hartsfield people mover anytime I was at the airport. My parents took me out on MARTA a couple of times for fun when I was less than 10. The first time I railfanned MARTA by myself I was around 15.
Mark
My first experience "alone", without adults, was with a friend around 11. My mother let us take the bus to Queens Center(Q58, then B58). I was never really into buses, so one day my friend and I decided to take the subway there instead (without telling her), via East New York. We took the M to Wyckoff, the L to East New York, the A to Hoyt, and the G to Woodhaven. My mother would have killed me if she knew I was "alone" on the subway, and in East New York no less (in the early 80's)! Most of the time we would take the subway the easy way to Queens Center: The M to Wyckoff, the L to Lorimer, and then the G, but that one time we wanted to take the long way (becuase we wanted to ride more elevated than just the M to Wyckoff. It was a few years before I told her that we were taking the subway when we would leave, and not the bus (buut I never told her how young we were when we started that!)
Light Rail Chic
You're right, SEPTA's subway-surface system offers lots of great railfanning, both at the portal, and at the Woodland shop. A few months ago I saw an MFL car sitting there, parked on the back of a semi trailer. Of all the times to not have a camera with me!
Just in case you missed it, the 34 was in my wedding...see this old post.
Mark
The cars were neat!! Two types of streamlined cars, plus some older car that made lots of sounds. (Pullman & St. Louis PCC, plus Peter Witts.)
The next year the 19 line was converted to bus. (ugh!)
By the time I was 10, I was riding all over the city. Streetcars, Trolley Buses and the hated diesel buses.
At the same time I was able to convince my father (who was a "closet railfan") to take me to places like Philadelphia. I got to ride Philly's "Witts" (the 8000's) on the 17 line (Market Street) in 1957.
By the time 1962 arrived, I was hanging out in the carhouses and by 1963, I even got to operate once in a while.
On November 3, 1963 it all came to an end.
Car 7407 pulled into Irvington Carhouse at 6:34 AM and it was all over.
I got involved with the streetcar collection in the 50's, thanks to my father, who would gladly drag his small son to those dark, dirty closed carhouses that were housing the collection as it moved. He even discovered that he and George Nixon had known each other when they were kids. By 1963 the cars were stored in the woods at Lake Roland. By 1966 the Baltimore Streetcar Museum was formed, and I've been a part of it since that day.
--Mark
til next time
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, neither was I, but you gotta do what you gotta do, see the 2nd paragraph here.
Solo on the subways wasn't until I was about nine and walking without crutches (I was in a serious accident when I was seven and it took about three years before I could walk without a really bad limp). And even then that was pretty rare since we didn't live in the City.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Before the last day of school I bought a token at the Delancey Street J M Z station. Then after school I took the M train to Wyckoff avenue and took the L train. It was a beginner's railfan trip. That summer it just took off though, I was going everywhere.
Album: June 29, 2003 - Exchange Place Grand Reopening
First train in and first train out!
Album: June 29, 2003 - SMEE MOD Trip
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Anyone notice the "toliet seat" on 9306? :)
--Mark
No, I'm not sure what you are refering to by "toilet seat." I'll have to look back at my photos.
I am thinking of spending $300-$400 for a camera, but if necessary will go a little higher.
The cameras I see, brag about megapixels. What is the minimum megapixels which will produce reasonable rail pictures, not meant to be blown up to 8"x 10" but possibly printed at 5" x 7"?
How do I determine before buying, the ability of the camera to work in low light without a flash?
How much zoom can I expect to find on a camera in this price range, and is any one better than another in auto focus? Is it possible to override the auto focus when a special effect is wanted?
What is a reasonable number of pictures to be taken without recharging a camera, because of low battery, or storage of images?
Tom
Whoa there! My Toshiba PDR-M71 take 4 AA batteries and I use NiMH batteries and I have gone through 3 sets of batteries in one day! One day! With full LCD usage. I'm talking 250 photos in one day with the camera being on and the LCD in use for 4 hours or more.
Its not being stingy, its being smart. If you're not using zoom or any other special features its really not needed. The only problem is it doesn't cover the full frame, which can be a buisance sometimes. For example, the G3's optical viewfinder is only 80% of the frame, so if it appears that an object is filling 3/4 of the picture, its actually closer to half in the end.
I find I have to rtake occaisonally, not "often". If you use it enough, you learn how to compensate for it.
Some of the most popular and best cameras around the $300-$400 price range include the Canon A70, Olympus C740, and the Olympus C4000 (I STRONGLY recommend these cameras.)
The A70 is a nicely priced camera at $300 and it includes almost every manual control you can think of, including manual shutter speed, manual aperture, manual focus, etc. This is a 3 MP camera with 3x zoom and it can even record sounds!
The C740 is fine quality camera made by olympus which is reasonably priced at $499. The main feature of this camera is the monster 10x (yes, 10x) optical zoom! This camera is a splendid camera with full manual controls and 3 MP resolution.
The C4000 is another quality (and well-valued) camera by Olympus. Nicely priced at $400, it features a 4 MP sensor with 3x optical zoom and full manual controls (you know I crave manual controls...)
I personally own a Olympus C720 and it takes very wonderful pics (with my 8x zoom and all ;-)), it produces 3 MP pics at very high quality but this camera does purple fringes a lot. ( a problem with long-zoom cameras) The C740 is the most updated version of my C720 (now discontinued)
I hope this helps you with the camera shopping. For VERY detailed reviews, visit www.dcresource.com for an in-depth review of every single model in the market ;-)
Hey, that's mine, and I couldn't be happier with it!
What is digital zoom in a camera as opposed to in software such as PhotoShop?
>>> The amount of pictures vary on the type of batteries you are using with your camera and the size of the memory card (they come in the form of CompactFlash, SmartMedia, XD, SD, and MemoryStick.) <<<
Are the memory devices you mentioned interchangeable, or proprietary to its camera? How many photos fit on one memory card? i.e. do I take a month's worth of pictures and store them all on one memory card, or do I carry many memory cards, or do I need to download the card daily to other media?
Two years ago I borrowed a friend's (now obsolete) Sony which recorded directly onto 3 ½" diskettes, but only about 30-35 images fit on each diskette, so I had to carry a pocket full of diskettes (and an extra battery) each day.
Tom
I don't think there's any difference. From what I understand, digital zoom just enlarges the area in the center of the phot, easily done in PS.
<Are the memory devices you mentioned interchangeable, or proprietary to its camera?>
Different manufacturers have embraced different format, so a Sony memory Stick won't work with a Canon. But not everyone uses a different format. I can't help you which is most popular; all my devices (G3, Dell Axim, etc) use CF and everything but the G3 uses SD, so those are what I buy. If you don't have anything else that uses specific cards, its not as great a concern.
I had one of those cameras, the cheap one, and liked it, especially since the floppies could be used in any computer without cables or special software.
Unfortuantly it got dropped once too often, and the FD drive is out of sync with the rest of the computer world. It can record on a disk that it formats, but then that disk cannot be used anywhere. So the camera is useless.
After using a borrowed "toy camera" for a while, I was going to buy the Sony 4.2 MP with the Memory Stick, but that too is out of production, so I got the new 3.2 MP CD-RW camera. It works real well, I can get 600+ VGA shots on a disc or 100+ at a full 3.2MP. I am satisfied with the VGA shots, since all of my work is on the Internet rather than on paper. The battery lasts long enough, and you can buy an extra. Discs at Staples are much cheaper than from Sony. You can use the CD-R or a CD-RW disc. The RW can be re-written over 300 times, but cannot be played back on older CD-ROMs. CD-R can be played back on a CD-ROM.
I'd look for a camera with a BIG LENS. Big Lenses let in more light, allowing a faster shutter speed, and less camera shake. I find I can hold the camera still and take a picture at 1/8th Second.
Elias
Held hostage? I have 2 G3 batteries and I've never had the problem of one dying out in the field. And even if one did, I wouldn't have the problem of both unless I'm a moron and don't keep at least 1 fully charged.
While they may be more expensive a proprietary battery usually gives you a lot more shooting time.
I bought an additional battery (the G3 normally doesn't come with 2 - Brian must have gotten it on special, or Canon screwed up), and it was not expensive. I probably paid for my extra what you paid for your recharables. And Li Ion batteries do last longer than alkaline and NiMH, both in usage time and life. And no "memory" means I can charge them at will instead of waiting for them to die completely.
You can get a pack of four lithiums (try Radio Shack or CompUSA) and leave them in the camera bag until you get to the moment when you discover your NiMHs have just died!
If you want to do low-light photography, stay away from the S230. I don't know what it is, but the CCD they use in it SUCKS in low light. I have compared it to both earlier and later models and the S230 stands out as poor in low light in comparison. In daylight or any well-lit situation it's fine, but not in low light - the grain becomes very pronounced.
I like the Digital Elph series because I like to travel as light as possible. The others aren't HUGE, but they don't fit into my pockets, either.
In that line, I think the S400 is the best right now. The one nice thing about the S230 is that you can do 640x480 video clips, whereas in the S400 your max is 320x240.
They do use a proprietary battery, but I've taken mine on two big vacations and it hasn't been a problem. Unless you're planning to go camping away from civilization, current proprietary battery life should last you a day (I can get hundreds of shots WITH my LCD screen on my S230 - a full day's shooting) on one battery - but I have a backup, too, just in case that I bought on eBay. They charge in about 90 minutes in the included charger (which is a 115/230 volt charger so you just need a plug adapter, not a power adapter for foreign travel).
If you're only printing to 5x7, 2 MP could be OK. Not great, but ok. For me, most of my photos are for web use, so I don't need a lot of megapixels. But they're nice to have sometimes.
The slim, slip in the pocket models I have seen do not appear to have a good way to hold them steady when shooting a picture, compared to the ones with bulge on the right side of the body. Is it just a matter of technique? Also, can that camera be set on a flat surface for an impromptu self portrait?
Tom
Hope this helps
Hot Lunch!
And:
Copyright 2003 Providence Publications, LLC
Providence Journal-Bulletin (Rhode Island)
January 5, 2003, Sunday All Editions
SECTION: News; Pg. B-01
LENGTH: 768 words
HEADLINE: COMING HOME - Friends and family say final farewells to a S. Carolina
policeman from Warwick
BYLINE: ZACHARY R. MIDER Journal Staff Writer
BODY:
NOTE: This page may contain multiple obituaries for the date you've specified.
Police sirens and bagpipes mingled with sobbing yesterday at St. Joseph's
Cemetery, as throngs of police officers gathered to pay final respects to Joseph
John McGarry, 28.
The Warwick native and South Carolina police officer was shot and killed in
the line of duty a week ago.
Although he patrolled the streets of Myrtle Beach, S.C., his death was felt
keenly in Warwick, the city where he grew up and first sought police work. To
many officers here, Joe McGarry was a brother.
Yesterday, some wore black bands over their badges, a sign of grief for a man
who had longed to wear a badge since he was a boy.
"Joseph McGarry was an exceptional policeman -- one of the very best," said
the Rev. Robert L. Marciano, chaplain of the Warwick Police Department, at the
Mass of Christian Burial. "And then, in an instant and without warning, he is
gone."
Father Marciano noted that McGarry had proposed to his sweetheart, Holly
Newman, at midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, just four days before his death.
David M. Kelly, a Warwick police officer who knew McGarry since kindergarten,
read from the Bible's Book of Wisdom: "The just man, though he die early, shall
be at rest."
McGarry was on duty at a Dunkin' Donuts early last Sunday morning when he
recognized a customer as a wanted suspect. As he questioned the man in the
parking lot, a scuffle ensued. The customer shot McGarry in the face, the police
say, then fled and was arrested after a brief pursuit.
The Myrtle Beach police charged Luzenski Allen Cottrell, 25, of South
Carolina, with McGarry's death, and have since charged him with another killing
dating to November.
Officer Mike Gunthinger was with McGarry that night, and he exchanged gunfire
with Cottrell. Yesterday, he was in Rhode Island, honoring a fellow rookie and
former police academy classmate. After McGarry's casket reached the cemetery,
Gunthinger was embraced by Myrtle Beach Chief Warren Gall.
"[McGarry] had a lot to offer our Police Department, and he had a lot to
offer the city," Gall said in an interview. He said McGarry was a standout in
the department, the kind of officer who would spend time with youths and
organize cleanups in the neighborhoods he was assigned to patrol.
He was once nominated for Officer of the Year -- an unusual distinction for
someone with only four years experience, Gall said. He is the first Myrtle Beach
officer killed in the line of duty in recent memory.
With blue lights flashing, a procession perhaps a mile in length escorted
McGarry's casket to St. Gregory the Great Church in Warwick, then to the
cemetery. At each stop, officers from dozens of departments stood together,
silent and at attention in dress uniforms.
Joe McGarry would have appreciated that, those who knew him said. "He was
obsessed with it. He loved being a police officer. He loved all the pomp and
circumstance," said his father, Joseph J. McGarry Jr.
The young officer had even persuaded Chief Gall to create an honor guard
after seeing police ceremonies in Rhode Island. Yesterday, the new Myrtle Beach
honor guard carried McGarry's casket.
McGarry's parents traveled to Myrtle Beach on Wednesday to attend a memorial
service for their only child. About 40 Myrtle Beach officers, and many more from
other South Carolina departments, came to Rhode Island for yesterday's ceremony.
"Those guys from Myrtle Beach, they just embraced my son. I don't know how I
'll ever pay them back," the father said.
He got a hug from Bob Shaw, the father of slain Providence police officer
Steven M. Shaw, killed in the line of duty in 1994. Shaw said that it was not
easy to come to yesterday's service, but he owed a debt because of the legions
of police who honored his son nine years ago.
"It hurts," he said, "but you have to think, they were here for us."
* * *
HONOR GUARD: Police pallbearers transport the coffin of Myrtle Beach, S.C.,
policeman Joseph J. McGarry, a Warwick native, during yesterday's funeral.
* * *
COMRADES: Policeman G. Michael Guthinger, above left, speaks with Myrtle
Beach Police Chief Warren Gall yesterday after burial rites. Below, Anita
McGarry, mother of the slain officer, is comforted by Warwick Patrolman Jason
DeCesare.
* * *
AN OFFICER HONORED: Joseph J. McGarry Jr. comforts his son's fiancee, Holly
Newman, left, and his wife, Anita, at Saint Joseph's Cemetery, in West Warwick,
yesterday. At top, Warwick police Sgt. Michael Higgins plays bagpipes during the
burial of Officer Joseph J. McGarry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But of course.
To cut time we originally planned to ride it to Westchester Square then transfer for the Bx21, but instead upon approach to Westchester we saw a Bombardier R142 waiting on the track to the yard. Thinking it would go into 6 service we got off and waited for it to come. But it went into the yard and stayed there. With disappointment we were ready to get out of fair control until we spotted a R62 4 train pulling into Zerega Avenue. As a wise decision we stayed. We saw 2 more Bombardier R142's assigned to the 4, 1 Kawasaki R142A assigned to the 4, and one more R62 4 train. Going back all of the R142's and R142A's were assigned as 6 trains and the R62's went out of service. Also we saw 2 very old RTS buses while on the platform, which some of us went gaga over. On the first R62 to bypass the station a motorman flexed his muscles as he posed for the camera. Before we left we saw a train that terminated at Parkchester go up the ramp towards Pelham Bay. As we went to get the Bx21, we saw the next departing bus to be a Clean Air Hybrid-Electric Orion Bus (#6356). The bus took us to the East 180 Street station where all 5 trains were running shuttle. Once a 5 train finally came it was a R142 (As usual) and the inside LED panel said "05190 to Easchester-Dyr". It was finally fixed after a few minutes. As we departed for Dyre Avenue we saw a few redbirds and the 3 train (68xx or 66xx) in Unionport. Our train sped to Dyre Avenue then stayed for a good 5 minutes.
We took a group photo on the rear engine car and headed back to East 180 Street. Upon arriving at East 180 Street, we boarded a 2 train to Times Square. We saw two more redbirds, one the rollsign said 5 to Dyre Avenue and one said 7 to Main Street Flushing. Once we arrived into Times Square, we went downstairs and boarded a 7 local train (Redbird R36 World Fair). We once again left the system at Shea Stadium and walked along the boardwalk between the Corona bus depot and the Corona Yard. We saw a M7, M1 and possibly a M3 pass by the Shea Stadium station. We once again boarded a 7 R62A (With rusting poles) towards Queensboro Plaza. We got off at Queensboro Plaza to catch a N train (We wanted to experience the fastest speed in the system). At first a "hippo" W train came in (which we skipped), and caught a R40 slant N train. The train got up to 62 MPH before we stopped at 59 Street where Lincon departed from the group.. We transferred for the Q diamond R40M at 59th street and rode it to Canal Street. We saw the South walkover wall was taken down and the track ran through there. Before we boarded the train, D train 22 departed from the group. The remaining 4 of us (Me, Shawn, Ozzy and Adam) went to eat lunch at a Chinese restaurant called Wo Hop. After a laughter filled dinner, we boarded a 6 local train at Brooklyn Bridge to see everything was back to normal. We transferred for the 5 R142 at Union Square and rode it until 125 Street. At 59 Street Adam left us to attend to personal things. At 125 street we got on a 4 train and rode it to Bedford Park Blvd to get a good view of the yard. It was mostly hippo R68s and 2 R62 trains waiting to be brought into the underground portion of the yard. We boarded a R142 Bombardier car 1195. Ozzy left at 167 street, then me and Trevor went our separate ways at Grand Central.
Here’s some things that couldn’t make it to the main paragraph
-Proof The R110B is still operating unlike popular beliefs
-Cars 1200-1210 are in at Unionport.
-The Amount of Jokes Passed Between All of Us!
-There are rather funny pictures of tigers on the Bronx Zoo ad biting somone's ass.
Photos will follow later on in the day, as I'm VERY tired!
Peace,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
(Trip Report originally typed by SciGuy (Shawn), Corrections made by me)
Peace.
ABDEE
Trevor
(The 9:56 out of 168 yesterday was an R-38 set.)
WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!
I'm trying to find the date of this "old" thread that seems to have been dug up, but this appears new.
What is this about the R110B aka R131 running again?!?!?
One of my favorite trains is running again! Too bad it's all underground. Photos guys, photos. I won't be able to be around the C for a few weeks.......
I can get photos along 8 Av, but I would like to know first that the R-110B will be there. So if anyone lives or works like right next door to a (C) station, and has an unlimited metrocard, it would be cool if they could run down there when the R-110B is scheduled to pass through and then post here if they see it. Then I will make the trek over to 8 Av and get the photo.
Impossible, all Q trains start/end at 57/7.
Proof The R110B is still operating unlike popular beliefs
I'd like to see pics of the partially cannabalized R110B, now that it's an odd six car train. Too bad, if the platforms on the Franklin Ave shuttle were long enough, these cars would be good candidates to use, 3 car sets of 2 trains on that line.
That was a obvious typo. I typed this the at 11 at night. Ive been out for 11 hours, give me a break.
Wow! I didn't realize that trains could go that fast anymore after the 14th St. crash. I'd thought the fastest speed in the system now is around 40-42 MPH. How did you figure that the train was going 62MPH given that the trains have no speedometer? Man, if I could get video from the front (or rear) of a train going at that speed...
Koi
Koi
A lot of good train operators will get it up there, the R32s being the best (from what I've heard from T/Os). Even R46s and R68s can get up to around 55-58MPH. With 32s and 40s, and coming off the Astoria line, 60MPH is hardly a difficult feat.
Wow! I didn't realize that trains could go that fast anymore after the 14th St. crash. I'd thought the fastest speed in the system now is around 40-42 MPH. How did you figure that the train was going 62MPH given that the trains have no speedometer? Man, if I could get video from the front (or rear) of a train going at that speed...
Koi
Washes will be done in two shifts. AM's and Midnights.
Trains will relay at Hunters Point, go up to 39th Beebe, relay again and go to Manhattan via 60th tunnel, relay at 34th, and go to Jamaica Yard from there. N/B trains will take either the 60th or 63rd tunnel depending on conditions.
(I know. I know. I know.)
:-) Andrew
For access to 63rd st connector, the trains will have to use the express track at 57/7.
I doubt on the AM shift that the 7 trains can use 63rd connector, that track is used for Q diamond express trains turning back (the S/B side at 57/7 is for Q local trains.)
The switches at the north end of 57/7 were removed except for the double crossover at the express trail tracks leading to 63rd st tube.
My understanding is that the N/B express tracks connect to both 60th and 63rd Streets.
Before the 63rd st line opened in 1990, there was a switch on both sides from local to express, these were taken out and I don't know why they did it like that.
subfan
subfan
--Mark
Mark
Thesis Project to Alleviate Atlanta's Traffic Woes
Mark
Coney Island became popular, in large part, due to the availability of mass transit, especially the opening of subway lines in the Dual Contracts era. It remained popular until the end of the '50s.
Rockaway Beach, also a resort, never became as popular even though it was serviced by the LIRR until 1950, the the NYCTA in 1956.
What effect did mass transit have on these areas, and why were the results so different?
It'll probably take you somewhat out of the realm of the subway per se, but it should be interesting.
Good luck.
--Mark
The Second Avenue Subway was contemplated as a replacement for the 2nd Avenue El which was torn down in 1942, and the 3rd Avenue El which was torn down in Manhattan in 1955. If it had been built in the late ‘30s as originally planned, how would Manhattan (and the rest of the city) be different than it is today?
Tom
The knucklehead railfans make up a very small percentage of railfans. In fact, these railfans (and busfans; guess we'll call them transit fans) are very small in number, but are extremely active in the craft. They believe that they have rights and that the transit system is their own playground. Most of them know more than the average employee, so some feel that they don't have to respect the orders or wishes of those employees. Finally, knucklehead railfans are oblivious to events that have an effect on a transit system's policies.
Honestly, I understand why it would be "cool" to get the pictures and tell the story. However, I have noticed that workers don't want to talk about their jobs in detail or passenger loads or whatever. The reason I can still get my information is because I demonstrate to them that I already have a body of knowledge on transit and want to sharpen it. Then, there are those transitfans that are ready to document their mistakes and so, they stay FAR AWAY from buffs so that if they do mess up, it won't be on the evening news. If the MTA does such a poor job of informing US of GOs, what do people think the EMPLOYEES go through?
For the record, these web sites ARE watched by transit officials on occasion. Many of the planners have the VERY SAME discussions that we have about certain routes. Transit employees are not paranoid...they are MONITORED. You do not have to break a rule to be approached about your "discussions"...just as photography is legal, but heavily monitored right now. If you want the breaks and the juicy info, we have to prove ourselves responsible enough to handle them. Responsibility means that you ALWAYS know more than you share. It may have also meant slipping that train operator a note so that he wouldn't have to go through the hell of wrong railing and disrupting service...I would have done that. It may mean asking the C/R or T/O BEFORE snapping the picture of the train or carrying around a copy of your web site to show people what you do.
The people we DO have hear are a gold mine and give us information that Transit folks would rather we not know. The reason why more people aren't harassed about their discussions is because the sites are monitored discreetly and the monitors would rather not blow their cover on how many Redbirds are left. However, employees all through the ranks of MTA, NYCDOT, FTA etc. DO NOT want to be caught giving out information that could be used to benefit the transit system. This IS a WIDESPREAD concern and if you are not trying to kickstart your own transit services (me) or you aren't an employee of some agency or transport company, you may not understand it or even see it.
A word to the wise...use your judgment. Your access to the stuff that you REALLY want to know depends on it.
Could have been more diplomatic is a understatement !
In addition, over time he made it clear exactly who he was. To be as outspoken as he was, he should have kept his true identity a secret.
One of Train Dude's problems is that he just had to answer the phone every time it rang. I pick and choose what topics I comment on. There are folks here who are real juveniles. A thoughtful person understands that there is absolutely no point in engaging them, so I don't. I'm talking about posters young in mind vs. age. Those new to the hobby and sometimes young in age do ask questions that some freak out about, but I remember when I was asking some of those same questions, so I don't mind answering them.
Again with the truth!! Everybody is always trying to pass of their own biased opinions as "the truth". TD was an asshole. I have it on good authority that everyone who worked with him thought it was an asshole.
TD did something that really torqued me in that when someone posted something that he thought was incorrect he would call that someone a moron and an idiot for posting such incorrect information and then stop there. He would never go and post his conflicting information so that we might actually LAERN something, he would just invoke his status as "The Great Train Dude" and belittle the poster he didn't agree with. Once a BEGGED him to please explain HOW some person was wrong or to contradict an argument and he outright refused. He said something to the tune of "I am under no obligation to divulge my information". What the hell, you just called someone an idiot forp osting something, but you feel you have to obligation to reveal what the correct information actually is?
Most of the time I believe that TD was just a bluff. When he didn't reveal his information because he didn't have any and when he did it usually showed that he has misunderstood the question being asked. Just about the only thing he was good for MTBF statistics.
1. The knuckleheads will always be with us. Anyone who can only bear to post on a forum where everyone is totally respectful at all times will just not be able to post on forums. Anyone who stops posting to the hundreds of reasonable people here just because they get flamed by one or two rude posters has their own maturity problem. I favor civility but don't expect to always see it.
2. Similarly, you have to assume that when you post info to those whom you respect you will also be passing along that info to those you don't respect. There's no way out of that. If insiders don't want to post because some people here are jerks, it's unrealistic to think the jerks will 100% disappear.
3. I think Train Dude was told by his boss that his next performance review would suffer if he continued to post, not because some people here are jerks. Why do I think that? Becuase of what happened to bryan1945. Bryan made a few ever so slightly injudicious postings and then poof, he announced he could never post again.
Just to straighten the record for anyone interested ...
That raises my opinion of NYCT management to some degree.
bryan1945 worked for a contractor, not for NYCT directly.
Which may have put him in a more precarious position (fewer employee rights, easier to terminate). I am speculating here, of course.
Train Dude isn't posting because he doesn't want to post - pure and simple. His MTA bosses have nothing to do with it.
1854...An African-American schoolteacher named Elizabeth Jennings is thrown off of a Third Avenue streetcar reserved for whites. With the help of Frederic Douglass and the community, she sues the streetcar company and wins, leading to the desegregation of all New York City streetcars.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Hey, some southern states caught up with New York ... just took them another hundred years or so :)
(ain't I a stinker?)
Larry, RedbirdR33
Fred: Things must really be dull out where you live if all you can do is to keep re-hashing the Bill Clinton story.
Republican morality is a unique point of view.
You damn Clinton for what he did with Monica but you ignore the fact that the man who led the fight to impeach him, Henry Hyde, admitted to a "youthful indisgression when he was forty", i.e extra-marital affair. You don't mention Bob Livingstone who was supposed to replace Newt Gingrich until it came to light that he too had had a little on the side. And say what about Bob Packwood, exactly how many women brought charges of sexual harrassment against him?
How can you call down damnation on the Democrats and say not a word against the Republicans for doing the same thing?
I know that you are a student of Lincoln.I am also. Do you recall his famous quote, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was actually paraprasing a much older quote
from another great man nearly 1800 years earlier. The other man was the same fellow who said
"Let the one amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone."
Please lets stay on topic. I respect you right to your opinions and do not throw in the occasional jib at the Republicans when I post and I only ask that you do the same. I for one am not ashamed of being a liberal and a card-carrying Democrat and believe as firmly and as fiercely in my political beliefs as you do in yours.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amtrak running to Grand Central ?
Bill "Newkirk"
AS A RESULT OF A TRANSFORMER EXPLOSION ON WESTCHESTER AVE NEAR THE SHERIDAN XPWY IN THE BRONX, AMTRAK SERVICE IS SUSPENDED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS OUT OF PENN STATION ON THE NEW HAVEN..++ AMTRAK EMPIRE LINE & METRO NORTH LINES ARE NOT AFFECTED
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect; only third-rail. And Amtrak has no EP-5s to avail of.
Michael
Wash, DC
<a href="http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ml.asp?Issue=NYS/2003/07/14&ID=Ar00401&Mode=HTML">City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley</a>
To get this:
City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley
Mark
I spoke to the engineer during a quick break at the restored Phoenicia station. I was told, they have five ex-Lackawanna MU high roof trailer cars, two of which are on the property. One car is undergoing restoration, while the other, renumbered #701, is fully repainted. #701 is painted red with yellow grab rails and a grayish roof. The clerestories for the first time in years are exposed.. Seems the Lacakawanna plated them over if you look at old photos of them.
The clerestories are now restored and look like cut glass in nature. There is also a generator underneath the chassis for interior lighting. The MU aparatus was removed including the front headlight marker light combo. The one with the car numbers on it.
Even though these cars aren't from this area, their classic looks as steam trailers fit right in. To be built in 1917, these cars are in great shape with no rust or rot.
Catskill Mountain Railroad is located on NYS Route 28 about 30 min. or so from NYS Thruway Exit 19. Furthur down Route 28 is the Delaware and Ulster Railride with two open coaches and ex-SEPTA MP-54's painted in NY Central paint. Not correct, but no big deal The DURR runs two excursions out to Halcottsville and Roxbury and to Highmount. Motive power is an ex-Dealware and Hudson chop nose RS-11 in D&H paint. On the trip to Highmount, they let you off if you want to photograph the engine change, which is in perfect sunlight. They also have an ex-BEDT steam engine preserved as wll as other equipment.
For information, these two tourist railroads are on the web:
Delaware and Ulster Railride...... www.durr.org
Catskill Mountain Railroad........ www.catskillmountainrailroad.com
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the links!
By the way, the Catskill Mountain Railroad URL should be: www.catskillmtrailroad.com.
Mark
If you tube the "lower Esopus", which is not as rough as the "upper Esopus", your return trip will be on the Catskill Mountain RR. If you tube the "upper Esopus", you'll be taken there aboard a school bus, but on the way down you'll see various remnants of the line when it continued west beyond Phonecia. Also, the tubing is more exciting in the upper part than the lower part (though I suppose you can start on the upper and tube all the way down to the "end" of the lower Esopus.)
Trains run every hour on the hour leaving the "tube exit".
--Mark
So on these tubes, do you have to do anything? I've been whitewater rafting, and there you have to paddle and steer. But on the tube, do you just go with the flow down the river?
If you will rent your tubes from The Town Tinker, and you ride the lower Esopus, you will ride back to the starting point on the Catskill Mountain RR.
I was also told there will be a dam release on Sunday, which will make it even more exciting.
Yes, and VERY COLD!
So on these tubes, do you have to do anything? I've been whitewater rafting, and there you have to paddle and steer. But on the tube, do you just go with the flow down the river?
Generally, you'll need to keep your balance on the rapids, and you might need to kick off rocks on occasion. On calmer parts, you might want to use your arms to navigate to one side of the creek or the other, but that's about it. Otherwise, yeah, you prety much go with the flow.
Absolutely wear a pair of old sneakers. Pool shoes or flip flops won't cut it. You will likely have to do a little walking in the creek in areas that get very shallow. Be sure to put sunscreen on. I recommend taking two pairs of old socks and cutting the ends out of them, and slipping the socks over your elbows and knees, so you don't get friction burns leaning against the rubber tube.
If you ride the upper Esopus, watch for the remnants of the same rail line that went further north (and south to Kingston). There are a couple of abandoned bridges crossing the creek every now and then.
Now that's a railfanning trip :)
--Mark
But of course.
Should you desire more info. don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Mark
R train runs between Whitehall and 95/4th Ave only
W trains from Brooklyn ending at 42nd st/TS, shuttle service in Astoria
Q trains make all local stops in Manhattan to 57/7, no express between Canal and 57/7
G trains from Brooklyn end at Court Square
E trains make all local stops in Queens.
That and the L train not running in Manhattan. Another great weekend for the confused commuter.
Remember the R-via-V GO? This is the same, except I guess the R-via-V is eliminated due to confusion. (Too bad, since it's somewhat useful. It's the E-via-F that should be eliminated due to confusion and uselessness.)
I don't know why the G can't run through, though. Must be more work in Queens, perhaps on the local tracks at QP.
The R is stuck, though -- its alternate route, via 63rd, is blocked by another work zone. Poor planning, no?
Also because of the L train fiasco, the G must be running in both directions normally in Brooklyn, delays may be expected at Court Square because of the additional G trains needed.
So run 300-foot G trains on regular headways between Court Square and Smith-9th, and also run 600-foot specials between Continental and Church, SB via V, NB via G.
How does that sound? Can the SB track at Court Square handle all turning G's at weekend headways? The special could use mostly R crews.
BTW, anybody know if the M this weekend will run any of its usual R-143's?
So G trains can't go through the G.O. track so they must end at Court Square. R trains will merge into the G track and smack into the construction area.
There must be another construction area at 57/7 on the local tracks for the W portion of the closure so R trains are banished north of Whitehall.
For displaced L line riders to use the G train, they will have no access to the Broadway line directly, so they have to go either end (Hoyt or Court Sqaure, go 8th Ave then walk passageway at Times Square), or use the #7 train at 45th-Road/CHS, but you REALLY want to take a chance on the #7 train? Especially when 9 out of 10 Manhattan-bounds will be IMPOSSIBLE to board because of the dumping of passengers from the Astoria shuttle.
Another thing to ponder: I hope there are numerous platform conductors at 6th Ave/BMT 14th st line because to transfer between IRT and IND, you MUST use that platform and it cannot be closed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Every day after work, when I enter my 6 Av local station, I can be sure that if there isn't a nb train already there, there will be one in like 2 minutes or less. Several times over the last 10 days or so I have come down only to see an (F) or (V) pulling out. But sure enough, when I look down the line, I can already see the headlights of the following train.
Yesterday I timed this phenomenom, and from the time the first train pulled out, it was only 1 minute and 23 seconds till the next train opened its doors. And on top of all this, seats are almost always available.
I know that on paper, other lines should have shorter headways and more frequency, but based on my limited observations, it seems the 6 Av Local, during this specific time period, has all the others beat.
Additionally, this line is fast, runs equipment that is usually nice and cool in the summer, and, well, has the (V), which is one of the best kept secrets of the system.
So there, I've finally said it. I think about this every day after work, and now I finally remembered to post it. Do you agree with me? Do you think your line has better service during the weekday PM peak period? If so, tell us about it. Thanks.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
As if you didn't have to wait long enough for the F train (a real problem) now you have to wiat for 2 and sometimes 3 V trains to pass before waiting for the F. It really stinks.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
I understand the V is an option for Queens Riders but why should everyone in Brooklyn Suffer for that.
Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit.
LOL. The F runs at a very short headway, shorter than just about every other line.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
There's no other place to turn it, and if there was the delays would simply move to that location.
Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit.
That's a future plan.
Conclusion: You're whining and you're on drugs...:0)
"Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit."
I believe that is going to be implemented. It is connected to the reconstruction of the Bergen interlocking. If I recall correctly, this will allow F trains to use the express track in Brooklyn. The V can then be routed as you say, and, indeed, it will be a very positive development.
I encourage you to write to MTA and elected officials to push for implementation of this ASAP.
As if you didn't have to wait long enough for the F train (a real problem) now you have to wiat for 2 and sometimes 3 V trains to pass before waiting for the F. It really stinks.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
Are you claiming there are fewer F trains to Brooklyn now than before the V was instituted? My understanding is that there were 14 F tph before the V was there, and still are.
If the V is useful to 14th St (which it is), then turning it at 2nd Ave is a relatively small amount of distance at low utilization. Consider the Sea Beach, the Dyre, and many other lines which have low utilization for many many stops before their terminal.
subfan
Once again the F must wait for the V.
If you start going further afield than midtown, they tend to skip stations (sometimes the station I need) to make up lost time: 1s and 6s skip stations south of 14th, Fs skip stations south of W 4th.
The Broadway trunk will have a new branch when the first operable segment of the Second Av Subway opens. It will also add a transfer station (63rd Street, transfer to the F).
8th avenue local service is great. Unless you need to go to brooklyn. Then, you should just get the first train that comes and take it to an express stop. In the Peak direction (to Brooklyn) the A is scheduled to come more than 2x as frequent as the C.
Here is the group...(From Right to left, in the background you have D Train, then MDT Route (Ozzy), Boliqua (Adam), SciGuy (Shawn), and R30 (Lincoln), I was behind the camera).
Due to some screw up on the Lexington Avenue line, wierd stuff was sent up the Pelham line, here you have Bombardier R142 #6695 from the 5, Kawasaki R62 #1420 from the 4 and Kawasaki R142A #7690 from 4 Line at Westchester Square.
Here is the screwed up sign we saw on a 5 Line R142.
Here is a view of the Broadway Express Line from the window of a Clean R40M window on the Q (How Rare!)
This was the extremely funny ad we found today.
This was the last car ridden by the last two left on the trip, (Trevor & Shawn)
Of course there is other photos, but these were some of the key points of the day. The R110B photos are slides and I don't have a slide scanner, so I'm gonna run the B&H at some point and have them placed on disk!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
Chuck Greene
Ok, for the benefit of me, and anyone who wants to be like me, we need to do this on a SUNDAY!!!!!!!!
For the past two years it has just been Greenberger and I that go railfanning together on Sundays, along with an occasional additional SubTalker like Chris or Mike or Lincoln. But since there now seems to be an interest in actually RIDING the subway, versus just arguing about it all day on SubTalk, I'd really like it if we did some more group trips.
Thankfully, my AIM initiative has led to a core group of up to 12 SubTalkers that chat live almost every night. It was from this chat that the "SubChat" trip of 7/15/03 came to be. That is a great first step! And Jersey Mike's PJ trip this Saturday is also another great example of SubTalkers finally getting together.
So let's expand upon all of threse recent successes. If you want to join in, the first (but only optional) step would be to email me your AIM screen name so that you can be part of the SubChats. Next, if you so wish, please open up your future railfan trips to all of SubTalk. I promise you 50 poeple won't show up, but a few will, and those few will benefit greatly from your kindness.
From the amount of whacky stuff that happened during yesterday's trip, I have a feeling that whenever SubTalkers railfan together, it will end up being very worthwhile in terms of sights, rides, photos, and fun.
Well looking at this, that some can make it on a day other than weekends (I'm only off Tuesday/Wednesday), I'm willing to get together a few trips.
You've got my S/N already dude, so try to catch me tonight.
Yes, I do have it, but I've never seen you online. Not once in over a week. Maybe I have it wrong? Please email it to me again. Thanks.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Cool photos. I do like to see people photos as well as the trains!
One of these days (like December), I’m going to get a weekend off, so I can go railfan too!
John
Chaohwa
Hell, just to save time, just put my handle in your Killfile like every other intelligent poster on the board.
"I wonder what would happen if i put the ketchup packets between the doors."
Have just returned to the UK following my trip to NYC.
Spent quite a bit of time riding the subway - and let me tell you I think it's a most impressive system - wish we had express tracks in London - I was well pleased riding in from JFK when we started zipping thru stations in Broolyn, saved a lot of time.
Managed also to get to ride a 'Redbird' on the #7, those subway cars simply ooze out charachter they kind of remind of the 1938 tube stock from London in a way - these too were also painted red.
Thank you New York - I will be back for more.
Petethefeet - London.
Glad you liked the speed, riding in from JFK, passing local stations
in Brooklyn. Reminds me of my one and only Train [From] The Plane ride
on Saturday June 2 1984. You would have gotten into Manhattan even
faster had the abandoned Rockaway Branch of the Long Island Railroad
still been in service.
Glad, too, that you liked your # 7 line Redbird ride.I've seen images of[current?]London tube stock under"newest images" on nycsubway.org.
A few years ago I saw an exhibit on the London underground at the
NYC Transit Museum store in Grand Central Station. Very enjoyable and interesting, particularly the system map, and the mention of the
large number of women employed by the system, beginning in the 1930's.
Interesting how London and the borough of Queens in NYC have place
names in common, like Kew Gardens and Richmond [Hill?].
You're welcome to New York, and please come back for more !
Simon
Swindon UK
I am a native NYC railfan, fairly new to SubTalk. Thank you for your
recent (2002?) Severn Valley Railway photos. I showed them to my son,
because he was and is a big Thomas The Tank Engine fan, and I wanted
him to see what seemed to be a real-life, working, and present-day
version of the Rev. Awdrey's fictional Sodor Island Railway. He saw
enough similarities to make his viewing of the images worthwhile.
Thanks again, and please keep up your fine photography.
--Mark
I am glad you enjoyed your visit to NYC and your time riding the subway.
The Transit Museum will be reopening in September 2003 so the next time come over you will be able to see it.
BTW - don't let the general public see your comments on riding the train from JFK thorugh Brooklyn. That would put a damper on the fight to get a better rail link to the airport.
And for all you regular and lurking non-U.S. Subfans, this is the time to visit! The dollar is low and Sterling and the Euro are high. Why, it practically makes a fun pass free!!! ;-)
The biggest problem with installing air conditioning is that the condensers need to go somewhere outside the climate-controlled region. That usually means outside and on somebody else's property, and there's just not enough space or money for that, considering the sizes of the systems in question.
It works in Grand Central because of who is upstairs.
Mark
This report is only preliminary and a final report from NTSB and FRA will not be out for several months.
I was a passenger on this train riding in the first car, and monitoring the Amtrak and NJT radio frequency. Virtually the entire crew was off the extra board. I had seen the engineer before, but never the conductor. The hot box detector near Edison did indeed trip. We were told by CTEC to stop the train and inspect. The conductor, who was in the first car, ran back and spent approx 5 minutes on the ground looking at the suspect car. He radioed the engineer
that he found nothing wrong. Engineer radioed CTEC reporting all was OK and was cleared to proceed. Total time on the stop - 12 minutes.
From the first car, the derailment felt like a sudden lurch and stop, clearly an emergency application. My estimate of speed at time or derailment: about 30 mph. No announcments whatsoever from crew to pasengers for about 10 minutes. Meanwhile, the conductor was running to the rear. A Westbound radioed CTEC that 3 cars appeared to be on the ground and were leaning. That was the first info CTEC had of problem. They shut the rr down at that point. First plan was to have all passengers move to rear of train and exit. At that point, nobody had been told anything except to move to rear and exit. No details of problem. After 10 more minutes, and after discussion between crew and CTEC, they decided to exit pasengers to the front, as a rescue train would come against traffic on Track 2, pulling up to train and boarding passengers. Meanwhile, the exiting passengers at the fron decided to walk toward Secaucus. No crew on the ground giving directions. About 200 passengers walked the 1/2 mile to Secaucus, while the rest stayed behind near the train. The rescue train (8 comets) loaded first at Secaucus, then backed toward the disabled Arros to pick up the balance of the passengers. That part took nearly an hour, as they were loading under difficult conditions from only a couple spots, and the crew kept asking passengers in the train to move to the front to make room.
Through all of this, the crew never made any explanatory announcements or kept the pasengers informed what happended or what was going on. If I hadn't been monitoring 161.01, I would have been clueless.
Here is another NJT worker defending the crew.
No, we are required to carry one, a 200 degree fairenheght one. And your description is pretty much dead on of a templestick.
Thebigc is absolutely right, Its not easy crawling under there, and checking all these different bearings in that car and the surrounding cars. All the while, you know that depending on where you are at, you have Sect A, Dock, Union, CTEC 8 or 7 up your butt to hurry up, delaying probably several trains behind you, cranky passengers because the train had to stop, and they are gonna be late, and bosses in NY or Trenton or wherever you are going pounding you as to why the train was late, and making other trains late.
Even though the cause may be obvoius (the wheel falling off) don't jump to conclusions as to why too quickly. They may have checked everything and everything was fine in Edison. They may have had a faulty templestick, maybe it did overheat that much in the half hour from there to the time of the wreck. Maybe there was a pre-existing crack in the wheel or axle and it wasn't actually the journal that set off the detector. Who knows?
Unfortunately, the crew is guilty until proven innocent, but thats the way it is on the RR......
The train activated the HBD in Edison while on its way east. This detector is an office readout, not a radio alarm type. When it is activated, the train dispatcher will contact the train and inform them of which axle tripped the detector, and north or south side. The crew would then have to inspect the bearing on that axle to determine if it was in fact overheated. To do so one would have to crawl under the car and mark the bearing with a 200 degree F tempilstik. If it melted, the bearing would be considered to have overheated, and the car would need to be set out. If the mark did not melt, which the crew must be claiming if they say they did their job properly, then the two cars ahead and behind the car that was inspected must be checked. Now during this time, CETC-8 (Its pronuonced see-tek, but it is spelled that way) would be getting more and more annoyed as trains would be starting to build up behind the stopped train. This was rush hour dont forget. So is it possible that the crew did a quick job, if they did at all, so as to get the train moving again? Maybe. If that was the case could it be they did so to avoid harrasment from management for delaying their train and others while they insured the saftey of their train? Probably. One other point. If the bearing had failed when the Edision detector got it, when the crew inspected it, it would have been obvious before they even got the tempilstik out. The bearing would have been almost too hot to even put your hand near.
Now, another, and rather important point. It has long been known that modern NFL (No Field Lubrication) bearings have one major drawback. They can and do go from fine to failed and burned off in as little as 10 miles. Several years ago, a Conrail train suffered the same type of overheated and failed bearing problem after having traveled about 20 miles, and about half a mile from the first hotbox detector. Most freight railroads space hotbox detectors about 10-20 miles apart, and there are still numerous derailments caused by a bearing that overheats and fails between detectors. My point in all this is that it is entirely possible that the bearing did not actually begin to fail until Linden (10 miles from where the wheel was found). Now, having said that, when a bearing fails, it does not go quiet into that good night. It makes a very loud noise that would make it obvious to anyone that something isnt right. The train stopped at Newark. The crew would have had to walk through the train to collect tickets. The bearing would have been grinding loudly as they did so, and had they been properly trained by NJT, they should have noticed it noise for what it was and stopped the train. As it was, if they did notice it, they probably assumed it was just another noise that the poorly maintained equipment makes, if they notied it at all.
Finally, another train had tripped the HBD at Edison last Friday. After 37 minutes, the crew was unable to find any defects, and proceded. Im sure that NJT management was waiting for them to tell them its ok that the train was late, because they want the crew to be sure there are no defects before proceeding. If you believe that, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. I dont know if they were questioned about that delay, although I imagine they would be. With that in the minds of the crew of 3920, and the fact that the detector had been wrong just three days before in the minds of the dispatcher and management, could they have done a quick inspection, instead of a through one? We may never know, but if the result of the investigation comes down as human error, keep in mind how wide the error probably is.
I am not commenting on whether they did the right or wrong thing, I only posted this information as reported by a NYC television station via. their web site.
Thanks,
Flushing7
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Now I know the Shuttle can't be that bad.
I'm sorry, but have you been living UNDER A ROCK? Try reading this: Restricted Areas and Activities. Of course, this only applies to the subway. But in any event, on Sunday, you'll be on a NJ Transit train.
If you have any questions, feel free to email me.
13 R-33 Singles
9308*
9309*
9310
9312
9313
9314
9316*
9317*
9319
9322*
9324*
9326*
9327
*=GOH-II specs.
130 GE WF R-36 Pairs
9560/9561
9564/9565
9568/9569
9572/9573
9574/9575
9576/9577
9578/9579
9582/9583
9584/9585
9586/9587
9588/9589
9590/9591
9592/9593
9594/9595
9596/9597
9598/9599
9602/9603
9608/9609
9610/9611
9612/9613
9614/9615
9616/9617
9618/9619
9620/9621
9624/9625
9646/9647
9648/9649
9650/9651
9652/9653
9654/9655
9662/9663
9666/9667
9668/9669
9670/9671
9672/9673
9674/9675
9676/9677
9678/9679
9682/9683
9684/9685
9686/9687
9688/9689
9694/9695
9696/9697
9702/9703
9706/9707
9708/9709
9710/9711
9712/9713
9714/9715
9716/9717
9718/9719
9720/9721
9732/9733
9734/9735
9738/9739
9742/9743
9746/9747
9748/9749
9752/9753
9754/9755
9762/9763
9764/9765
9768/9769
143 total, or just 13 trainsets.
Keep this check list handy, its getting smaller by the day.
Tick, tock....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@ao.com)
Work Service
9328
9329
9330
9331
9332
9333
Scrapped:
9321
Museum:
9306
So what happened to these cars:?
9307
9311*
9315*
9318
9320
9323
9325*
9334-9345
In work service as well.
-Stef
A/K/A those from the first IRT SMEE trip June 2003.
Either they're scrapped or they're in work service.
Work service, all of them. 9321 is the only R-33WF scrapped.
Unlucky 13 trainsets and the last summer for these Redbirds before they all are Reefbirds.
An ugly pre-Christmas present, no more RF window on the entire IRT except for an occassional R62A single.
GOH-II refers to technical conversion from WH to GE control and various other changes being made at 207 Street Shops.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Mark
Chuck Greene
Mark
Mark
I tried to search the threads on this, but came up empty, so forgive me if it's old news.
I don't remember the exact readings on the signs but I can assure it is not NYC destinations.
If and when the commerical comes on again I shall try to write down what the signs say.
UNION STATION
BROAD ST
MARKET SQR (?)
and a few other destinations similar to those of the Philly system.
Chuck Greene
Mark
But I was in the Subway® in Hauppauge, LI and stopped to look at the maps there. The ones I saw (not like I remembered) were clearly Hagstrom maps of part of Manhattan, about 1965 or so, though I couldn't find a copyright or attribution.
Anyone look in their local shops lately?
-- Ed Sachs
Also, the wallpaper shows a station at Park Avenue on the Broadway el, which I'm guessing was removed when the el was rebuilt.
Interestingly, I first noticed it when I was eating at the Subway on Broadway & Park Avenue :). Naturally, I immediately looked for a trace of the station; an oddly placed girder across Ellery Street might be one artifact, but that's it. When the els were "rebuilt," were stiffening memebers added to the old structure, or was the thing really built up from scratch?
BTW, I can't find any information on "Covert Ave". Was that the former name of Seneca Ave, or was the ground level station here (prior to 1916) located elsewhere?
Mark
I guess in places where there is no local subway, you could have different walls with different themes, a New York wall adjacent to a DC Metro wall, etc.
Mark
Where is Corona? Perhaps an LA MTA or BART theme would work.
Mark
An interesting idea, but the antithesis of franchising. The whole idea is to make the stores look as much alike as possible so people going into them will expect the same menu and same quality in each of them. Would it have any meaning at all to have a BMT sandwich if the decor is MBTA?
Tom
Mark
I'm going to be right around there tomorrow. Guess I'll have to stop in the Subway to see.
- Seneca Ave (M) had another, older name
- Evergreen Ave on the Myrtle Ave el (north of Broadway) was there
- Park Ave on the Broadway el (between Myrtle and Flushing) was there
- Consumer's Park on the Franklin Shuttle was there
The map also had all IND lines prior to 1940, long after the above stations were gone. So it's not a reproduction of an official map.
No, it's a composite of reproductions of several official maps from different time periods. It's been posted here before that the wallpaper was specially made for, and is ©, Doctors' Associates, Subway's parent company.
Next time I'm in a different Subway shop I'll take another look.
:-P
Since I doubt the owners of Subway relish the idea of an unannounced visit by the MTA legal department, I think it is reasonable to assume the maps they use are more than 50 years old.
One is on the concourse of the passenger rail station, which is kind of appropriate.
NY Daily News story here
URL: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101339p-91598c.html
I can understand not wanting to call it "World Trade Center," but I find it depressing that a name equated with razzing the French and America playing bully has been chosen. Please excuse my comment if it seems "unpatriotic", that's not my intent and maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut. But "Freedom Tower" just hits ALL the wrong notes. Especially since I'll be one of those PAYING for it. :(
I just think that this particular name is ILL conceived and projects an image for America that lacks WISDOM. We're not an isolated nation anymore and thumbing our noses with a name like that doesn't put across what America SHOULD present to the rest of the world - a "shining light" and not a "schoolyard bully." :(
Perhaps you should take a look at the site. It is not an empty hole in the ground even as we speak.
In the meantime, let him know that, just because you don't throw yourself into the path of an LIRR train out of despair for New York, that doesn't mean you don't like Peter.
:0)
Also, for those people who are foreigners, the building will not have a height of 1776, but rather of 541. How is 541 offensive?
Besides, those people work in America, nobody forced them here, it is the values that the year 1776 stands for that brought these people to America (or the economic oppurtunity that comes from it). It these people don't like America's values, they don't belong here and they should just go home to their respective piece of shit countries. For those people who were here on business and died, they're probably either from a place which benefited from the enlightened thought that came out of Pennsylvania's State House 227 years ago or they come from places which don't have it and want it. Anybody who doesn't want democracy is an idiot.
Oh, and I stand by my "piece of shit countries" comment, it doesn't apply to all countries. If immigrants home countries were such great places, they wouldn't strive to come here. My parents were immigrants, I have no compunction against calling the (former) USSR a (former) piece of shit.
It would appear that in the year 541 AD the first outbreak of the plague occured. It ravaged Europe, as well as Northern Africa and Western Asia, claiming some 50-60 percent of the population in Europe at the time. Of course on the seesaw scale of our myopic view of history somehow 10 million, and more likely many more, deaths 1500 years ago somehow pales in comparison to 2050 deaths two years ago.
I don't care if the damn thing is measured as 1220 cubits, 107 rods, or 3.7 e-9 astronomical units, it's too damn short! That cute little 1776 foot tower will stand for all of a year before some 1800 foot tower rises up in some heretofor unheard of Asian commerical center, knocking our cute little tourist trap right off the top. We could at least cut the stupid numerical symbolism garbage about having to have it be 1776 feet tall, it'll be that tall maybe 1% of it's life time, what with winds and metal fatigue and such. The least we could do is push it another 300 feet and try to be the first across 2000, rather than wallowing some 300 feet short of a very real goal. An even better goal would be 804 meters, or 2640 feet, the first tower to break a half mile would certainly be an accomplishment well worth striving for, despite the fact that it would drive the tower to be almost double the original height. Heck, the lands all there, and so long as somebody can shut the Necrocrats up about the use of the tower sites, the whole superblock could be used to bring Frank Lloyd Wright's Mile High tower to life. Certainly a respectable aspect ratio could be maintained going up, and with the use of LIM Elevators and such the problems of moving people that plagued his first designs could be circumvented, if not avoided entirely.
Really the only other problem I have with the building is the friggin stupid name. Freedom Tower, you might as well scream to every person in America to never forget 9/11. Do we really want to drag that around with us forever? It's one thing to remember the people who lost their lives, but it's quite another thing to make those lost lives become a burden upon your life, thats unhealthy. At this point I'd prefer it become the Chase-Manhattan WTC building instead of the "Freedom Tower". It'd at least be honest, since it's inevitable that the people running the 'Freedom Tower' would try to subvert their patriotic appelation in the name of profits, so why not just call a spade a spade now and get the some money for the construction of the building from whatever bank steps up to sponsor it?
Also, is it just me or does it seem odd to name a building being built in a time of decreasing personal freedom the 'Freedom Tower'. Kind of like naming a Works Progress Administration dam after the president largely responsible for the recession that neccessitated the WPA, a carrier after a president who was largely against the founding of a strong Navy, or an international airport after a president who fired all the air traffic controllers.
But thats about it, I don't mind the designs I'm seeing for the WTC site, most of the more bizarre one's will probably get weeded out anyway, leaving the slightly more conventional ones. If they could just make it at the very least 300 feet taller, and give it a better name, then I, along with more than a few other people I suspect, would be happy with it.
Had Congress not so frequently desecrated the word "Freedom" with such posturing and jingoism, it might be a different story. But the word "Freedom" has been cheapened so by our lawgivers, and has been turned into an "in your face, BRING IT ON!" pile of manure. Damned shame. But the connotation "Freedom" has been given lately is NOT what new York City wants to project to the rest of the world. Maybe WACO, but NOT New York, capital of the WORLD. :(
Reagan National does not have international flights.
Sorta like the JOE BRUNO BASEBALL STADIUM at Hudson Valley Community College (next to the Joe Bruno Palladium and the Joe Bruno Stadium Joe Bruno Memorial carpark) ... but you at least EXPECT that from low rent state sausagepackers. Yeah, you're right. (sigh)
I had forgotten that Houston is now the George Bush international airport, with suitably schmaltzy photos of George and Barbie doing their local good works. Maybe I qualify for half a runway or something.
I think that bringing in Donald Trump and calling it the "World Trump Center" would be better than "Freedom Tower."
So this business about 1776 feet being offensive is ignorant hogwash.
Just my two tokens worth....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
has an awesome rendering of just what you're talking about. The plaza is filled in to street level, with corpo-dreck instead of the original proposal. I'm not a monument fan, but it does help focus on why Liebeskind tried to keep the "bathtub" open to its full depth.
They don't even have to look like the original twin towers or be the tallest buildings! As long as they're taller than any other lower manhattan buildings and they're twin towers.
We can't bring back the past. But what will be built will be magnificent. And new. And striking. And very much New York.
If they're only going to build one building, it should have space up to 100 floors. Hell, build it as strong as the Empire State Building so it won't sway under normal wind conditions. Do SOMETHING great. putting a metal pole on top of a building is not 'great'.
Remember, too, that several office towers will be built - but they will be at the 60 or 70 floor height.
Yes, but nothng around it is even 20 stories high. On the other hand, lower manhattan has a few buildings that will be taller than the real building being constructed there. (not including the spire).
I'm not saying that spires aren't nice. The Chrysler building's spire is perhaps the most attractive building crown in the WORLD. But this is strapping a spire onto a building where the spire will be 2x as tall as the building itself. Build some buildings where the actual interior space ends around the 1000' mark.
Maybe I'm confusing something. How many floors is 'freedom tower' supposed to have? How high will the floors reach?
http://www.civic-alliance.org/home.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The view will still be very nice; it just won't reach as far as from the top of the twin towers.
URL: http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases03/030716.htm
http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train_schedules_station_parking.jsp has NJT station parking info. Probably if he goes a few stops out from Hoboken there should be free weekend parking.
What about parking at Liberty State Park and taking the HBLR?
I could take the subway, but it's a nuisance. Coming home, I'd have to ride all the way north to 33rd Street on PATH, then completely backtrack southbound on the Q, ride THROUGH Lower Manhattan and then local in Brooklyn only to then do what: Get into my car and drive home. It just doesn't make sense. Going there would be the exact opposite.
If it was a weekday, or PATH-WTC was already open, I wouldn't hesitate using the subway.
Googling hoboken + "municipal parking" gives some hints for parking in Hoboken.
There is also a garage at Newport and a very reasonable one (by Manhattan standards) at the W Houston St pier.
Pretend that you're going there to shop, then quietly walk through the mall, and take either the HBLR, or the PATH, for one stop. I'd double check when the mall closes on Saturday's, the return trip is scheduled to arrive at Hoboken at 7:20PM, but you have to account for the unexpected.
Date: Friday July 18
Meeting place will be the Union Turnpike station. We will meet near the 10-car marker at the Manhattanbound platform.
Time yet to be determined but 11AM possibly, but I'll have to double check with my friend. If not 11AM, then 1130 to 1200. Once I get more info, I'll provide it for you.
We'll probably hang around the Queens Blvd IND in the hopes of getting a chance to see some Redbirds and R62As from Corona go along QB to get access to JAM's car wash. We'll also make a stop at 45 Road - Court House Square to track the progress of "THE HOLE." (A hole is developing on one of the platforms at 45th Rd so we're going out to see if it has been patched up). A trip on the Brooklyn IRT might also be included, if time permits.
Anybody with questions can either reply to this post or send me an email.
I'll provide you all with updates and news regarding the trip.
Hope to see some of you on Friday. Just look for the tall Asian guy with the carolina blue shirt, navy blue shorts, navy blue/carolina blue Nike Shox and carolina blue/navy blue Houston Astros cap.
Hello to all Subtalkers!
Things here are a little more orderly than that "other" board. ;-)
Their web site doesn't say this anywhere, I find this kind dumb since this is the station with the lowest ridership in the entire system. Why not try to promote it??
I only found out about it by riding the Blue Line the last few days and seeing the customer notices in trains, stations, and big banners announcing it near the new station.
This is strange because the CTA usually unvails a new station on a Monday so they have the entire weekend while the branch is out of service to make sure the station is ready to open.
When I rode by earlier today they already had the fare equipment in place at the new Kostner entrance and the high-barier entrance in place from Kildare.
I think what they did is remove the fare-collection equipment and entrance from the Kildare entrance to the temporary Pulaski Kildare station. I also noticed today a sign at that station where the Kildare exit used to be saying emergency exit only. Aparently as of tomorrow this station will become just temporary Pulaski. The new Pulaski station still appears to have a lot of work to go. On the other hand the new 54th/Cermak station has appeared to be complete for the last 2 weeks and I wonder when it will open. The lights have been on at night, the station signs are up, and the park-n-ride lot it paved and numbered.
I am also interested in urban geography, and I could do a thesis on a specific region of the city (Bronx) and research the amount of ridership the middle, upper, and lower classes of income and compare them.
Robert
1241-1245 were at NYCT Linden on July 15.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Robert
Robert
Speaking of sunkbirds, on my way upstate this past Sunday, I saw a barge loaded with redbirds at 207th St. Expect another voyage soon.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, I took this photograph at Metro Center. Comments are welcome.
Do these car look like they are being shipped and received out of Alexandria Yard (C99) like the Rohr cars were when they were upgraded to AC?
The reason I ask is when the Rohr cars were upgraded a number of times I saw the cars loaded aboard highway lowboy trailers parked on Blue Stone Drive outside the gates of the yard.
This would give one a good chance to inspect up close and photograph the under carriage of the cars in the light of day. I did get a chance to inspect the upgraded Rohr car when they were on the trailers. Unfortunately at that time I had no camera to take pictures.
John
BTW, did I get the numbers right?
That would leave me to believe the shipper is delivering them to Alexandria Yard (C99) the same way the Rohr cars were delivered.
BTW, did I get the numbers right?
The letter number codes identify train control rooms not just station. The letter number code system is technically assigned to the (RTU) Remote Terminal Unit in the stations train control room or the way side train control room between stations and in yards. The RTU is the data link interface between the way side train control room and the central control room at WMATA headquarters.
Number counting down from 99 are assigned to yards, junction and yard leads. Examples; Alexandria Yard (C99), D and G Junction (D98) and Alexandria Yard lead (C98). Number counting up from 1 are assigned to main line RTUs starting from the geographic centers of the system. Examples; Metro Center (A01, C01), Gallery Place (B01, F01), Largo Town Center, (G05) Potomac Avenue (D07) and Grosvenor (A11).
Metro Center is the geographic center for the A, B, C, D, G, J and K routes. Gallery Place is the geographic center for the E, F and L routes.
There are 2 main line RTUs that do not control trackage through station platforms C11 and J01. C11 controls the trackage between National Airport (C10) Braddock Road (C12). The C11 RTU is in the traction power substation building on the west side of the main line behind the Potomac Yard shopping center. When and if the Potomac Yard station is built it will be identified as C11.
J01 controls the main line trackage between the west end of Alexandria Yard lead (C98) and Van Dorn Street (J02). The RTU J01 is located in the traction power tie breaker building at the west end of the Alexandria Yard lead. Early plans of the system showed a future station just west of Blue Stone Drive/South Quaker Lane. (See map in the metrorail exhibit at the National Capitol Trolley Museum). If this station were ever to be built it would be J01.
Now here is the $64.00 question. What letter number code will be assigned to the New York Avenue infill station now under construction? The trackage today in the area of this future station is controlled by Union Station (B03) and Brentwood Yard (B99). I and some one in side WMATA discussed this about 3 years ago and came to no conclusion. We did conclude that is highly unlikely that WMATA will change the letter number codes on the B Route stations north of Union Station (B03) to maintain continuity with standard RTU identifying practice that has been used in the past. My best guess is WMATA will make an exception to standard RTU identifying practice and call it B97.
John
P.S. You now have the answers to one or more of the question on the next WMATA metrorail Quiz.
Most of the folks posting here don’t know a quarter of what I know about this railroad. I have walked roughly 40% of the tunnels during construction and road my bicycle through the Potomac River tunnels not once but many times. I have got some handle time on a set of Rohr cars back in the 1970s. I have been in many places in most of the stations that the public never sees and or doesn’t even know exist. I have over 4,000 pages construction drawings of various stations in DC and Virginia. I have a number of technical document that are not generally available to the public. . . .
John
PS, I am not or have ever been on the WMATA payroll.
BTW, if you ever get a shot of a CAF on the Orange Line, post it up! Remember, the flipdot signs used their standard yellowish green for the Yellow Line color... gotta wonder if they'll use the LED standard orange for the Orange Line.
For that matter, if you get a shot of a CAF on the Yellow Line, post it up! And ESPECIALLY if you get a shot of one on the Red!
Compare that to the yellow you see on a different train, I know I am not providing the best possible example:
I have not seen any CAFs on Orange but from what I understand, they use the same color LED that is used on Yellow:
And finally, on SubTalk DC 2, we rode a CAF on the Yellow Line from Huntington to L'Enfant Plaza. No CAF cars are assigned to the Red Line, yet.
Orange on LED AND Yellow on LED using the standard orange LED color? I can understand orange, but is WMATA having problems using the color yellow? Is it too bright on an LED display to show without hurting some eyes? The orange train and the Yellow train you showed with the LED signs... they both seem to use no variant of color from the standard orange LED bulb color, unlike those on the Green and Blue lines.
BTW, a game of NAME THAT PICTURE!!!
#1: July 4th train, probably at Smithsonian or L'Enfant Plaza (why else would an Orange train be going to Addison Road?)
#2: Temporary center track operations on a southbound Yellow Line train at National Airport
#3: Gotta be Smithsonian... July 4th, this time the Orange Line is bound for Franconia-Springfield... wish I was there... did anybody boo at the trains, like they did on July 4th, 1998?
#4: Huntington, on a CAF trip. Where else does the Yellow Line have an outdoor island platform? I said ONE, National Airport doesn't count.
#5: L'Enfant Plaza... how do YOU manage to not get trampled standing there? I've still got bruises...
As for your name that picture game:
1. It was a July 4th train but I took the picture at Rosslyn
2. Correct
3. Smithsonian has side platforms and there are no trains from Smithsonian to Franconia-Springfield on July 4th. The yellow line runs from F/S to Mount Vernon Square via the Fenwick Bridge. That was a yellow line train at Archives
4. Correct but Braddock Road and King Street also have single, island platforms and are very much outdoors.
5. Correct. When I took that picture, 3 other people out of the STDC group were taking pictures too, and it was at the north end of the station which is not nearly as busy.
If no CAF cars, have any rehabbed Breda/Rohr cars been added to the Red Line?
No rehabbed Bredas are in service at this time.
The way the CAF cars were assigned was to first make sure all lines had 6 car trains during rush hour. The Red Line already has 6 car trains on every train during rush hour, the only time 4 car trains show up is when they are short cars due to maintenance. As a result, the Red Line gets its CAFs last. These 40 something cars will ensure that the Red Line always is 6 cars during rush and might allow for more weekday midday and weekend 6 car trains. Very few eight car trains are possible but probably not likely or common until the 6000 or 7000 Series cars arrive.
I saw on Fox 5 a few weeks ago that Metro will be testing some 8-car trains on the Red Line over the coming months. They have to install additional sensors on the track (according to the report, one 900' before a station, another at mid-station) so ATO will be able to perform a precision stop with the existing platforms (610'?). Given that refitting all of the existing ROW with additional sensors would cost about $50 million versus about $5 billion to lengthen every station, they're very much hoping the technology solution will do the trick. There's also a press release on the WMATA site about it.
Seriously, I think this is one of those cases where it would make more sense to ship it by plane anyway. If that train derails, that could lead to a serious radioactive waste spill. And of course trains are subject to delays during which a terrorist could attack it. Yes, planes have their own security risks, but it's a lot less likely that a plane will crash than a train will derail.
In what way? Do you SERIOUSLY think they would transport radioactive waste in such a container that if the train were to derail, the waste would spill, causing a dangerous condition? Get real. It is perfectly safe, and the world would be better off without people like you spreading these false ideas.
Wow, you're not one for friendly debate, eh? Trains moving at any decent speed generally derail with more force than a simple fender bender car crash. No, I don't imagine the waste is sitting in open containers waiting to spill out. However, trains DO crash, and cars which were designed to survive impacts DO spill. I'm sorry if this comes as news but unfortunately trains aren't perfect.
robert
That would make matters worse. Radioactive material remains radioactive even if vaporized, and it would then be spread over a wider area.
That's OK, because the casks that carry nuclear waste will take a locomotive head on at greater than 70 mph and cut it in half. The cask remains intact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moral of the story, if you want to debate whether transporting this stuff by train is a good idea or not, read up on the facts first.
What are they talking about? Reprocessing waste fuel rods to extract leftover good quality usable fissile material to fabricate new fuel pellets?
I guess you guys have to buy trackside giger counters now to ensure safe railfanning on the mainlines. I also hope they identified the contents of the railcars as toxic waste with the appropriate nomenclature so if there is an accident, people will know not to muck around.
-Robert King
Have you seen the containers? They'll survive friggin anything, probably even a near miss from a nuclear warhead (although at that point it's purpose would proabably be moot).
I take it you fear there coming through your backyard, so much the better that they should fly a mere 5 miles above you, always with the threat that it will randomly fall from the sky.
Have you seen the containers? They'll survive friggin anything, probably even a near miss from a nuclear warhead (although at that point it's purpose would proabably be moot).
No, I haven't seen the containers used in this case. I guess part of my differing opinion could be because this is the first time I've heard of this, and don't know the specific conditions of transport.
It's safe to transport.
But it is easy to spot the train with the real cargo. It will be the one guarded by James Bond! As effective as that strategy might be, I suspect it is more the product of some fiction writer's imagination rather than reality.
Tom
Nope. When you come through with factual information, it helps lead to meaningful conclusions, instead of some idiot like me speculating wildly. Anyway, I decided to look up the test info, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.ans.org/pi/faq/transport.html (see question 4)
I guess the only legitimate argument for airplaning it now would be to save time. Considering how long it takes for the stuff to decay, I don't really think an extra few days would make much difference anyway.
And you come by this information...how?
It depends what you mean by "safe". The context of this thread is safety of the cargo on a freight train; freight train derailments in the USA are (I believe) relatively common owing to poor track maintenance over the years, though one would hope that he route taken by the train that started this thread was planned to ensure that poor tracks were avoided. I suspect that air transport of the radioactive waste would have been impractical anyway - remember the waste is contained in lead containers, which are very large and immensely heavy.
However, so far as risk of death of passengers is concerned, aircraft have the problem that if they crash, usually everyone on board is killed. If a passenger train crashes, usually only a tiny proportion of those on board will be killed. For example, the January 2003 derailment on London's Central Line had no fatalities among 800+ people on board. On that basis, trains are safer than planes, though scheduled air passenger services are in fact very safe since the probability of a crash occurring is very small. Private flying is a different matter.
Your concerns are unfounded. The article was full of political posturing and pandering to ignorance; the usual anti-nuke fare.
Spent fuel casks are extremely heavy, extremely stout and exceptionally secure. You don't ship those things by airplane. A spent fuel cask can and will survive a head-on crash at 70 mph, being dropped from over 100 feet in free fall, and at least two hours in a kerosene fire with no release at all of radiation.
This doesn't mean we want to advertise where and whewn it's going. But the danger is psychological, mainly. We live in a scientifically illiterate socety, where "nuclear" is a political football of convenience.
THAT was the battle plan. By leaving the major cities cut off but INTACT, they would be such a logistical nightmare that they could do more damage to the "system" than the Soviet military could in TRYING to keep things supplied and restore function. And if you look at it from a strategic standpoint, pretty decent game plan that NOBODY expected HERE. Wasn't until the morons from outer space that New York City actually FACED an attack. :(
Meanwhile, our "strategerists" (Shrub's word) are STILL rolling out that Homeland Security money to Keokuk ... ever wonder why so ***MANY*** of the top minds of the military, Joint Chiefs and others have piped off the ship? We'se in DOODOO under the current "regime" ...
NOW, there's nuclear worries - Most of the plants and vessels were NOT designed to be hit by anything more formidable than an errant Piper Cub, and sadly, the BIGGEST problem is all those pipes in the condensors with longitudinal "corruption" ... even more so than a terrorist threat though, bad MAINTENANCE is the REAL danger to nuclear power ... and after Enron, who ISN'T cutting corners and delaying GOH's? :(
You're overstating the case (containments can take on a lot more than a Cessna), but your point about pooor maintenance isa a good one. If you want to see examples of really good safetry, outstanding performance and role-model maintenance today, you look at TVA plants (significant especially in that Brown's Ferry could be termed "most improved" compared to its state 20 years ago), Palo Verde, Diablo Canyon, Wolf Creek (serves us herein KC) and St. Lucie. If David Kenyon has fulfilled his promise to get N's act together, then Millstone will eventually join that group too.
Where do those 2 gallons an hour go? Nah, ignore that minor "glitch", it's too cheap to meter. Seriously, my Uncle James McAleavey was FOREMAN at Indian Point in the 60's and 70's ... the one the NAVY built (decommissioned) was a "TANK" ... the OTHERS though scared the qwap out of him. He died of Leukemia and Testicular cancer MANY years ago ... whether where he wored had anything to do with it or not is anybody's guess. Prior to Indian Point opening, he was forman at Kip's Bay over on First Avenue ... COAL.
So what I'm saying is I'm SORRY for the "Superman in a Piper Cub" thang, but properly loaded up with non-ammonium based catalysts, a Piper Cub COULD do enough damage to breach the bell jars GIVEN how old the concrete and rebar is, and let's be real - neutrons *DO* have a propensity to strip atoms off metal FAR faster than in "nature" and thus pipe, rebar and structural steel DO get eaten as quickly as if the cement surrounding them was ocean water with a bubbler ...
Seriously, "metal fatigue" at nuclear plants is IMPRESSIVE ...
: )
Also, I wonder why Muni went with rollsigns rather than LCD or similar displays on the Bredas.
Mark
Nope, they'll actually switch mid-run. In the tunnel both sides have the traps up. When they leave the tunnel both sides put the traps down. There's a loud alarm noise and some flashing lights when it happens.
-dave
p.s.if you're going to indent your text you should at least put the proper html to outdent when you're done so the form looks right
Mark
From my limited observation, the configuration was changed as soon as the doors closed at the last station which needed the previous configuration (either high or low).
I believe it is done that way for three reasons:
1. The operator does not want to forget to do it when he/she arrives at the next station.
2. The operator does not want to change the configuration while moving, because the bells might startle a standing passenger and cause him/her to lose his/her balance.
3. People move toward the doors before the train gets to the stop, so if the operator waits, there is likely to be someone standing on the portion that moves, causing a safety hazard.
It would not surprise me if there are wayside signs, or even automatic trippers to change the configuration at the appropriate time.
Tom
Incidentally, are you sure all high platform stations have center platforms?. From memory West Portal and Forest Hill both have high side platforms.
As I recall the early Breda cars had rollsigns; the later part of the order has LCDs.
You are also correct in that the first order of BREDAS used roll signs. What is interesting about this is that MUNI made an attempt to copy NYC with the colored circle and the letter (J,K,L,M,N). Look at the signs posted in MUNI METRO stations listing the lines and the route/destinations (the metal ones posted on walls and columns). The colors DO NOT match those used on the roll signs!!!
The second and succeeding orders of BREDAS came with LCD readouts (yellow). The original order are being retrofitted (slowly - last week I saw one with ONLY the front sign being a LCD, side signs were rolls), this will be necessary once the Third St line is incorporated as the current roll signs have no destinations for this line.
Slighty off subject, I did see Market St Railway got a PCC from NJT - it's in the workspace at Duboce.
The rollsigns on the original bunch of Breda's was...rollsigns. Car 1478-up (the newer cars) have an LCD sign. They ARE compatible, as I have stayed many times at the end of the N-Judah line and watched the signs change, simultaneously on old/new Breda's in the same train.
That was taken from the 1991 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records. Does anyone happen to know if that was done on just one fare, or did Kevin leave the system to take buses between subway lines, etc? And was he allowed to ride expresses? If no one knows I guess I'll try to contact Guinness and ask them. Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Ok, but then how would you deal with something like the Queen Blvd IND? The "Express Lines" go on a totally different alignment between say 36 St and 65 St. Would you be able to just ride exp through there? Or would you need to do both the exp and the local? Or just the local? That's actually the only example I can think of that would cause a problem. Everywhere else, the exp tracks are either right below or above or right to the side of the local tracks.
Keep in mind the system subtly changes from year to year, so Kevin's "record" is for the system as it existed in 1989.
Yes, if I was going to even consider doing this for the record in Guinness, I'd have to find out what their thoughts are on that. But if I did this for reasons other than Guinness, I would still like to follow the same rules Kevin did. But I would recognize the fact that the system is different now.
After seeing his website, I'd be inclined to require third party verification before believing his statements.
You mean verification of what he tell me in his email reply to me, right? Maybe. I'd probably try to see if Guinness would tell me anything about it.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Presumably he means verification that the ride took place at all. If you are going to do such a ride, you would need to document such things as each time and location of changes of trains, so the trip could be verified by tracing the route on a map.
Tom
He earned a Guinness World Record for the trip! So it is true! No more verification needed, unless you want to know the specifics of the trip. That my require and inquiry to the record keepers at Guinness.
You certainly have a lot of faith in Guinness. Setting a Guinness World Record is not quite as rigorous as winning a Nobel prize in science.
Tom
I don't understand, is there a reason to doubt Guinness? I'm under the impression that they have standards for certifying record breaking feats.
Keep in mind that their main business is selling ale and beer, the whole idea of the book of records was a gimmick to advertise their name. I am sure that they have some standards, such as having witnesses to whatever the record is, but they do not send their own observers, and in something such as the fastest time to ride the whole New York subway on one fare, who knows what the ground rules were? They would have been set by the person setting the record, not Guinness. And of course, Guinness would not know about anyone who did the trip in less time but did not tell them.
Tom
Well tough luck to those that don't tell Guinness. I'm going for the Guinness record, not the "secret record that no one knows about."
I don't know what rules were used in the most recent record.
Ride every bit of every revenue track? (Impossible without lots of conveniently scheduled GO's, since many pieces of revenue trackage aren't actually used in revenue service.)
Stop at every station? (No expresses except for backtracking.)
See every station? (Expresses are fine, except for, e.g., inner Queens Boulevard, Brooklyn IRT, upper Lex, lower South Brooklyn IND, 6th Avenue, Manhattan Bridge.)
Pass through every station? (Only inner Queens Boulevard, lower South Brooklyn, and the Manhattan Bridge are out.)
And how do we define a station? Is an entire station complex one station? If not, what about borderline cases like 50th/8th and Canal BMT?
Is it restricted to one fare, or are multiple fares permitted? What about out-of-system free transfers?
I don't know if there's a standard set of rules. I'd be inclined to require stopping at every station, to treat a complex as a single station, and to restrict it to one fare.
--Mark
It's interesting to note that they're looking at Portland as a model for their proposed system. I hope this means they're looking at using modern streetcars. Historic trolleys have their place, but I think modern LRVs would work better with the bold and modern image that Atlanta has long been trying to push for itself. It'd be great to see something like Portland's space caterpillars plowing down Peachtree, or maybe something like Lyon's futuristic trams.
(Of course, even better would be seeing something like Portland's space caterpillars running on SEPTA's subway-surface routes. Boy do we need larger LRVs in Philly and lots of them!)
It's good to read the plan has the backing of business and civic leaders, too.
Mark
LightRailChic from SW Philly :-)
Personally, I think some artics like those used in Toronto would look pretty cool in West Philly.
Mark
Mark
PS, did you get my email?
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyway, listeners to WINS in the morning heard John Montone's report, followed by an explanation by the anchor that Mr. Melendez spent time in jail NOT because of the kitten, but because he was wanted on an outstanding warrant! Later in the day, Mr. Montone's report was replaced by one from another reporter that consisted mostly of sound bites from a Deputy Police Commissioner explaining that Mr. Melendez's cat and his bongo playing had attracted the attention of the Police Officers and that he had refused to provide them with identification when asked, which made them suspicious. THAT's when he was arrested, and they subsequently found out who he was and that he was a wanted man.
The police have been saying for years (ever since Bill Bratton ran the Transit Police Department) that if they arrest people for little stuff they often find that those people are wanted for bigger stuff.
In my opinion, WINS management should be ashamed of itself for allowing the initial report to reach the air in the first place and for not issuing a formal retraction and apology to the NYPD. But that's a New York Radio Message Board discussion, not a Subtalk discussion...
David
WINS was not the only outlet to carry this story, many others, both print and electronic, carried this story.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Mark
:0)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.gorailtrail.org/history.htm
How did this end ? Did you safely stop it, climb down and walk away with your hands in your pockets whistling a tune ? Was the engineer found lying on the ground clutching his chest like Fred G. Sanford ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill and his conductor came down, I was already back at Main Street and he just looked me in the eye and said, "OK, what did you do with it?" He knew. :)
GP-38 ? Whatsa matta, an SD-40 not good enough ? HEH !
Bill "Newkirk"
And that one still had "New York Central" paint. Dunno what became of it, but unlike many of the others it wasn't a "smoker" ...
Is this any reference to that PATH train incident a long time ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's the deal that AIN'T in the story ... the BLE brother parked his train at a location that blocked SIX crossings with his mile-long consist. Now normally, such is forgiven but it just so happened at the time that a FIRE DEPARTMENT was trying to respond to an emergency and was BLOCKED by the train.
Now all good city residents knows what happens to your CAR or TRUCK when there's a fire and your vehicle is blocking a hydrant. I'm sure I don't have to detail. Breaking out the glass of a boxcar or trying to run a hose through it or under it only invites a cut hose when the train goes to move.
What surprises me is that in MANY states, blocking an intersection DOES get you an invite from police (Tuch has mentioned it MANY times in his "High Iron" stories out his way) ... but in New York, CSX is EXEMPT from the same laws applied elsewhere. I lived in Kingston. There was NO need (given what crews walk normally) for that train to have blocked SIX intersections. Could have stopped short of town, crews have CELL PHONES ... arrangements COULD have been made.
The folks that live here in town ALWAYS stopped where they could to fetch a snack, coffee, soda or beer for the ride home ... but you DON'T block intersections ... hell ... that's what CONDUCTORS are for. It's different on the high iron - conductors would MUCH rather walk into town than walk the damned train. :)
The BLE brother who did that DESERVES the CSX "tongue-lashing" ... nowhere NEAR as pleasant as 8th Avenue. Heh. What I don't get though is OUR guys would NEVER do that, and the morons from Jacksonville would do time in their OWN state for doing that! Shows some attitude if you KNOW the score with the railroaders - it HAD to have been done on purpose ... there's PLENTY of places to spot a train along the banks of the Hudson without screwing up traffic.
And the fire chief WAS on his way to a fire ... because he was delayed, crews got the fire out before he could respond in person as required by law ... so it wasn't exactly as though a TRUCK was blocked. But STILL ... the law says that all upstate firemen need to do is pull their zipper and WHIZ on the ashes - as long as water pours. May not have been that big a deal THIS time, but there IS a serious risk. We don't HAVE municipal fire departments up here. Siren honks, you look for the smoke and GO there and lend a hand ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I *know* that line. Used to ride it often with Conrail buddies. There's PLENTY of places to tie up in Kingston, and the walk is DAMNED short from a safe tieup without blocking those intersections - in fact I can think of two REALLY convenient spots, depending on northbound or southbound. Frankly, I though Port Ewen was the better pit stop - we did that QUITE often - there was a pizza place where you could eat, pickup a six-pack for the ride home from the yard (mainly the WAIT for the van) and have a righteous Ulster county time of it with nobody down. Heh.
Otherwise, I'd agree. But the parties involve ... well ... they DESERVE their whipping.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're driving subway trains
- would you stop if an other driver ask you for?
- would you ask your colleague to stop or wait for the next train?
I would stop and ask to stop if the train is in time.
Anyway, this is nothing, once on the Beesley's Point Secondary in Laural Springs NJ I saw a Beesley's Point Extra coal train stop at a GC, a guy run out accross the street into a bar and emerge about 5 minutes later with a 6-pack. So much for rule G.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For a conductor to transport alcohol he would have to put it on the manifest and lock it in a box car.
Elias
Now they stop in Somerdale for "beans", with Somerdale Cold Cuts (hoagies [subs, heroes]), a pizzeria, and a Chinese takeout in a small strip mall.
But GEEZ ... when I used to work in the city, when I commuted down from Zoo Paltz, when I was DONE after a long day, I'd hit that little bodega across from Port Authority, brown bag THREE Foster's lager "oil cans" and settle in for a busride on Adirondack Trailwaste ... porta-potty on board, NO "Homeland Security Undergarments" required. :)
I'm sure you're old enough to remember "Yellow Submarine" and the blue meanies. Maybe I got warped by Moutn Saint Vincent, Maybe the Seminary at Dunwoodie and visits to Maryknoll. But somehow, my own warped wittle mind came out of "PUBERTY, SON!" with at least one thing - I believe that God meant for us to ENJOY his gifts - blue skies, air, the love and companionship of others and that it was HIS job to "smite them suckers, BRING IT ON!" according to HIS will.
That we were meant for our love and labors to enjoy the fruits provided ... including "seed-bearing plants" (it's IN there) ... though I got over that years ago, seems that the PRIME DIRECTIVE is simply to enjoy what is granted and DO NOT HARM ANYONE else. Maybe overly simplistic, but I much prefer the GOD I was raised with, "cosmic muffin, love" ... over the "hairy thunderer" thingy thet "party of god" is peddling. I've had way too many Charlatans and think that the Puritan policy is nuts.
I guess that's why my own parish priest prefers to hang out here. :)
Pardon the insurrection - I just can't get over STUPID work rules - when the PURPOSE is to prevent a certain type of conduct. And when said conduct does NOT occur, management can ... well ... I've often carried beers (sealed of course) on the floor of my car up front, in the back, or (gasp!) "stealthed in the trunk" ... the OBJECTIVE is whether or not I have sinned. :)
HERE, I have to challenge you - possession of CARGO to be consumed once OFF-DUTY at the end of a tour isn't a problem. You might get asked to document your octane in the morning, but sitting there waiting for a crew cab to show up to ferry you out of there to the drunk tank so you have 8 hours to sleep it off ... well ...
Possession of beer among train crews is not the same as consumption on duty or near going ON duty. For those who don't know how alcohol works, metabolism is the most unpredictable factor in calculating BAC. On average a person experiences a .017 per hour decline in BAC. The range varies from .04 on the high side to .01 on the low side. To be conservative, one would use .012 per hour decline in BAC. Above average decline in BAC is .020 per hour.
Reality is, a crew of 2 or 3 picking up a six at "Miller Time" is a tradition on the railroad. And those waiting for the company ambulance can blow through a 6 and STILL no vee-hickle. Just the way it is. But NO railroader would show up gassed. Just ain't done. Them horsies are a handful WITHOUT impairment. And what if you get caught?
Just not done. But Miller Time *is* MIller time, another 20 hour day, I"m kicking back myself. :)
I think we all have stories like this.
A 718-minute Green Line delay is in effect between Southern Ave and Greenbelt
stations in the direction of Greenbelt .
I feel very sorry for those commuters. Luckily, the delay has since been cleared.
Mark
Rail Project Requires Faith.
The title alone indicates the editor's awareness of the roadblocks (both figurative and literal) proponents of rail service face in selling the idea to midstaters.
Ignoring costs, both initial and those which would be incurred by taxpayers to sustain the system when it's up-and-running, commuter rail in my home city could easily work. Harrisburg has always been a crossroads, both for rail and highways. The rail infrastructure is already situated to serve the region's cities with Harrisburg as the core. The highways are virtually un-expandable. Most of the interstates and expressways existed prior to Eisenhower's Interstate mandate, and thus were admitted to the system under a grandfather clause. I remember driving on them, and there are some rush-hour traffic jams which need relief. (Okay, they're not as lengthy and hellish as L.A. or Atlanta beep-and-creeps, but still annoying nonetheless.)
I think if Capital Area Transit manages the project correctly, by starting slowly with service between Lancaster and Harrisburg with the all-important stop at the airport (buzzword:intermodality), by demostrating to the midstate that cost-effective and efficient, friendly service is possible in Central Pennesylvania and by initially using the infrastructure already maintained by Amtrak and then expanding outward into NS territory [probably one of the biggest hurdles will be attempting to negotiate with NS about using their railroad for commuter trains, but thanfully, NS is slightly more responsive than other Class I's (like CSX:see MARC) to commuter rail agencies, since it recognize that these agencies help pay for infrastruture upgrades], an eventual web of rail service could develop around the state capital.
The bean-counters will harp about its cost and how it doesn't pay for itself, and Pennsylvania's localities are known for their fierce independence and unwillingness to cooperate with their neighbors. Thankfully, Harrisburg's Mayor Reed is an amazingly strong leader, in his umpteenth term, who is exceptionally well-respected by the suburbs (often more than the city residents who keep electing him) for turning the city around, which he most assuredly has done in his many years in office. Rail proponents must simply be vigilant about debunking the myths about public transit, and that will be very difficult in Republicania, Pennsylvania, a region normally allergic to taxes. However, if part of Corridor One gets up-and-running, there is a chance midstaters might become amenable to the idea and even take pride in it someday.
I hope so.
Mark
One anecdote: When PATCO first opened I rode it daily, from South Jersey to Philly. A friend of mine drove daily into Philly over the Ben Franklin bridge. Two weeks after PATCO started up the friend complained that he resented his bridge toll subsidizing my train ride. I asked him how traffic into Philly had been the last two weeks, and he realized that it was significantly lighter. He then stated that he no longer objected to subsidizing PATCO patrons since it also made his commute easier.
The other unique thing about Harrisburg is that, being a crossroads and the gateway to the Northeast from most of the rest of the country (except, perhaps, the Southern Atlantic coast), there is an immense concentration of truck traffic in the region, causing a more heightened safety issue, as well as the need for more frequent highway maintenance. Anybody who has driven in Pennsylvania knows that it has some of the roughest roads in the northeast, due in no small part to heavy truch use.
Look at New York. It has the largest transit concentration of transit services and alternatives in the country, yet there are still daily rush-hour traffic jams, even though Robert Moses tried his damnedest to ram ever more highways through ever more neighborhoods. Imagine if there were no subway here. The BQE would be a parking lot 24/7! Harrisburg had no Mr. Moses, so when PennDOT added as many lanes to I-83 as were possible before running into existing property and structures, that was it. However, the rails are there, they were there before the highways, and they can serve many of the same destinations. I say they use them!
One thing I forgot to mention is that places of employment in Central PA are not all concentrated in Harrisburg city. There is sprawl there similar sprawl to most other U.S. cities. However, there are enough state government offices located downtown as to draw a good amount of people to work there, even though parking is not as readily available and free as it is in the surrounding industrial parks.
Perhaps a commuter rail service will induce more private businesses to remain or creat downtown offices in the city. Whether or not that benefits the region or not is another debate. It's interesting to note that 2nd Street's having been redeveloped from a dead, run-down thoroughfare into a night spot destination has actually drawn criticism from Harrisburgers who fear a "New Yorkification" of Harriburg, and want to keep the burg the sleepy, nowhere town they have always known.
I think we've reached a point where the age of sprawl has gone on for so long that a lot of people don't remember anything else, and don't realize that small cities and towns weren't always as dead as they are today, that once downtowns wer active places where people walked around oding there business, and actually passed each other in the streets, spoke with people they knew, and there were things to do after 5:00 PM. Yes, those boarded up stores were once open, that abandoned theater once showed movies, and a lot of the downtown parking lots once had buildings on them.
Mark
Amen.
(And I say that being one of those people who is not old enough to remember those days. It just so happens that I crack open a history book every once in a while.)
Actually, the idea that urban revitalization destroys the small town character of a place is very flawed. To me the core of "small town character" is that people there know each other and treat each other, on some level, like extended family. Community is what makes small towns small towns. Sprawl hurts this because it lessens human contact.
Mark
I need to know approximately how long is the scheduled trip Manhattan bound from Euclid Ave to Chamber Street on the C train.
I need this ASAP please.
Thanks
CG
The C takes about 32 minutes from Euclid to Chambers. The A express takes about 28 minutes.
Pitch a tent and report back in a year.
The first has the words "It's good for your biceps" directly under the first line. The 2nd version has a line width space between the two sentences.
See the illustrations in this ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2183635507&category=4152
One says " Carry babies and strollers on stairs" the other says "Carry babies and folded strollers on stairs".
The word "folded" being added to the 2nd card.
The 2nd line is as I mentioned in my first post.
The word "folded" being added to the 2nd card."
AHA ! They snuck in one word to fool us collectors. Thanx, I'll check my extras to see if I have both.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or how about the fourth version: "Don't ride the subways with babies and strollers. Wait until they're old enough to walk"!
Bill "Newkirk"
Not really. Carrying the baby and folded stroller would not significantly stress the biceps following the parent's initial lifting of the bady and stroller. As with most muscle groups, biceps hypertrophy requires repeated overload for a number of repetitions; 6 to 8 reps are optimal for maximum strength gain while 10 to 12 reps, with a correspondingly lighter load, are best for size gains. Moreover, hand position is important during curling exercises for one's biceps, with a fully supinated (palms facing up) positions being the best, hence the better results generally received through use of a straight barbell vs. an EZ-Curl bar. It is highly unlikely that one could carry a baby and folded stroller with fully supinated hands.
In short, the MetroCard message is largely incorrect.
IMO, almost ALL of them have been incorrect...
Today...I go in search of the elusive M-7. As much time as I've spent on the LIRR in the past week, I've yet to get a photo of one.
By the way, what's up with the "36th Street". I haven't seen that since the M first started running to 9th ave, and they didn't have "9th Ave" on the R27-30 rollsigns, so they used "36th St".
When the West End express track is in use in either direction, the M is cut back to (dare I say it) Chambers.
American companies had a proficiency for building crappy cars. BUDD was the only one that didn't. It's sad that BUDD isn't still here.
I hate to break this to you, pal, but you're reciting a lot of fiction there. The R62A performs as well as any other car brand new did in the inventory, your flag-wrapped rant notwithstanding.
Budd designed a lot of neat cars; among them was Penn Central's famous MU Metroliner set, which started the first high-speed rail service in Northb America. The units were innovative, grounbreaking. They ran at 150 mph on tests.
But in service, they were notoriously unreliable, breaking down frequently. The Penn Central and later, Amtrak, worked hard to iron out the bugs, and finally achieved a consistemnt 110 mph top speed and average of 75, very respectable.
Budd may or may not have survived in the railcar market with the R62 order. Contrary to your post, NYC syubway car orders are rarely described as "lucrative." MTA demands a hell of a lot from builders. Unless Budd had other customers in other cities and countries, it would have exited the business anyway.
Bombardier has had some QA problemsw, no doubt. But your description is made up. No relation to reality.
Bombardier never made the R68's. It was Westinghouse and Kawasaki. The only Bombardier cars made for the MTA were the R62A's, the M7(The only Bombs without any major problems) and the infamous R142's
Look on an R68 builder's plate next time you see one.
False statement. Companies will take orders to try to preserve their business, or in the hope they can build on the future, but it doesn't always work out.
Bombardier, Breda, Siemens, Alsthom and Kawasaki are in the railcar business because they compete in a world-wide market. Budd's railcar business began to siphon resources they needed to stay competitive in their MAIN line of work, which is automotive products (Budd is a leading supplier to Ford, GM etc.)
I take it you don't know about Morrison-Knudsen's problems with the R4446 overhaul order. The company did a great job, but lost money on the deal.
"I'm not aware of the cars by Budd you later ascribe problems to."
Well, you are now. Budd had its share of difficulties, just like any other manufacturer. It made good, as Bombardier ultimately will as well.
If properly tested the Metroliners could have been great. Recall the Silverliner MU's. 6 prototypes were built in 1956 (Poineer III's) and then tested for 5 years until orders for the 60 or so production models were placed in 1961-63. The Silverliners were similarily a big step forward with AC-DC propultion and HVAC systems, but they preformed well due to adequate preparation time. The Metroliners were concieved in 1966 and then delivered in late 1968. There were no prototypes, the closest thing being a set of 4 hi-speed Silverliners made for USDOT.
You will also recall that the R32's were pre-dated by the R11 prototype train which also probably helped out the design of the SEPTA M-3's.
I will admit that the Amfleets had some genuine design problems with their brake system freezing up.
Really, the R11 prototype train and the R32 don't have a direct correlation. What helped the R32 was that is was similar to just about every other train on NYCT trackage. NYCT had a big thing with that: Making a standard and having anyone build it, and the R1-9 are the biggest example of this.
The R11 was a prototype of a 2nd av subway fleet. Years before the R32 was ever thought of.
I liked the Metroliner MU concept. Really innovative ground breaking work. But you have to take care of the details...
The Pioneer III's propulsion system is NOTHING like the Silverliner II/III cars.
The Pioneer III was basically an AC-only version of the new Haven Washboards (best I can tell, a look at a good book on the Washbords will likely confirm this), which itself was just an LIRR MU setup with a substation hanging next to it. Litterally - the ignitrons on the Pioneer III cars just feed a regular DC EMU setup.
The Silverliner II cars were significantly different, and used a GE system. In the GE system, the ignitrons play an active role in current regulation, by the solid state control system varying the firing angle of them. These cars have a whopping total of 4 contactors in the propulsion system - Line breaker and an A,B, and C tap. B and C are constant voltage DC supplies, A is the variable voltage one. When the car starts out, only A is in, and the ignitrons regulate acceleration current. Once the firing angle is 0 degrees, depending on the controller notch, the car will return to 180 degrees and jump in the B supply, and advance toward 0 degrees again. Once at 0, if allowed by the controller position, the car will once again return to 180 degrees, then jump in the C supply, and advance again.
This is why you'll notice a SL II/II/IV accelerates very smoothly.
DC is provided by solid state rectfiers on all 3 circuits. This was a very early application of sillicon technology in MUs. I believe ASEA might have had thyristor EMUs by the mid 60's, though. Westinghouse tried thyristors in the Metroliner and Arrow I, but they were couldn't get it to work.
Ironically, the Ignitron was a Westinghouse invention, the Thyristor was a GE one...
GE used air blast cooling, Westinghouse used water cooling on their tubes. Air blast was much better - the purity of water had to be high to keep electrolytic effects low probbably - the tube cases were not grounded. Westinghouse's system used 4 tubes in a full wave rectifier with two on each side - basically a giant table radio power supply (!).
I have the maintenance manual for the propulsion system on the Pioneer IIIs, and GE's proposal for the Arrow I's system, which describes the Silverliner II/III design. BTW, the Silverliners all have 25kv (actually 23kv, per GE's book) taps on their transformers, and 60hz operation ability. Some SL IVs have changeover equipment, it was offered as optional equipment on all the Silverliners, AFAIK.
I think the EP-5 might have used oil cooled tubes, the E-44 used water, I don't know what the E-33 used.
Ignitrons were the delivered equipment in the Washboards, Pioneer III, SL II, SL III, SL IV, M-2, Arrow II and GE equipped Metroliners. Thyristors were used on the Arrow I, and Arrow III, and Westinghouse equipped Metroliners. I'm guessing on the M-4 and M-6 cars too. The M-2s were definately retrofitted, I've heard a few Washboards were too, as were some Metroliners. I don't know if the Silverliners are tube still or not, I suspect they are since SEPTA's commented parts are no longer made and hard to get. Then again, even the semiconductors used in the card rack are likely no longer available.
BTW, the Silverliner II used a then new technology in it's control system - circuit boards.
If I line up your posts on electric power, take out a physics textbook and refer to it as needed, all you'd be missing is a way to offer me an accredited certificate. You write very well on this subject, which is why whenever we discuss electric power, I'm always looking for you to chime in.
Thanks for the teaching moment!
David
In 1981?
David
R-62: 1983-85
R-62A: 1984-87
R-68: 1986-88
R-68A: 1988-89 (ordered 1987, if memory serves)
The reason the R-68s took so long to start coming in is that ANF-Industrie used the wrong gauge stainless steel in constructing the carbodies (too heavy) and had to start over again.
David
David
BUDD also made a bid on the R62A contract.
I went to Chambers today at 11:50 and stayed until about 12:30, but did not see the R110B, only R32/R38's on the C.
Was this R110B running today? Any further updates on this train?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Maybe the train would work out on the BQ Crosstown if it were still in shape for revenue service.
Maybe if they were short on cars then pressing this train into service might be warranted. And maybe they are short on cars (they run short C trains all the time). Are they taht short? I don't know.
But now how is anyone going to prove that they are current photos, obviously this is going to be hard to do as they ran on the C for a few years.
Greenberger's idea: a photo of them at 42 St-PABT (new wall tile).
42nd Street is satisfactory evidence.
I can confirm that the C train that ran on Trevor's R-110B schedule on Tuesday was an R-38 set.
A photograph is only proof that the train ran at some time, not that it ran recently -- unless the background of the image has changed recently. The obvious example is 42nd Street.
Peace
David
1. Numerous TA employees who post here have either said or hinted at the fact that the R110B's aren't even on the active roster.
2. Numerous Railfanners have said they've only seen the R110B on the same track whenever they see it.
3. Everyone who looks for the interval of this C train finds that it isn't an R110B. The first listed interval wasn't even a scheduled C train departure time.
4. Trevor has shown NO proof that the R110B still runs, and his claim is specious at best. They run the train one trip to Euclid and then back to 168th, then back to bed? When the R110B DID run on the line, it ran for just about ALL of the midday segment. Otherwise, you have a train crew that has to switch trainsest in the middle of the day: what's the point of that?
5. Last time there was any official news on the cars, Train Dude said that there was an order for parts to repair All 3 trainsets. Why would we be going back to the 6 car ones only then?
I understand Trevor's your friend or something. This doesn't mean that he can't play some 'trickery' on subtalkers.
EVERY TA EMPLOYEE ON THIS SITE SAYS:
R110B NOT RUNNING IN REVENUE SERVICE NOW
Isn't that easy to understand? Why don't you get trevor to show those pictures to us?
Sounds like Trevor is doing an N_Slant_40 parody.
No. That just means that he's duped you.
It goes beyond T/O's. Some of these people are middle management who would be in a position to access all the records. Widecab5 even gave the last date of the R110B's run. Then SUBWAYSURF also pointed out that this isn't the first time trevor's told some 'little white lies' about R110B's.
Face it: he told an untruth. It's not the end of the world.
BTW, that damn N_Slant_40 said that he saw some Modified R143 that looked like the R160, I highly doubt that Trevor is lying about what he saw.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Noo...not really, N_Slant_40 claimed that the first R-160's were here at 207th St. of which a TA employee told him so. I knew he was bluffing from the git go.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Adam
Anyway getting back on topic I don't think Trevor would lie about that but from what I see it hasn't been in service for quite some time on the C.
You made a post on the R44-46 that generated many replies. So, I wonder what you are referring to.
I also don't post anything personal. That doesn't mean I don't sympathise; I just want to stay on topic.
I do sympathise for the abrasive comments you've gotten from some people who resent your more personal postings. Even though I don't think you should have posted them, I don't think others should have reacted so nastily.
Just remember this though. Most of your threads were started with redundancy in mind or the fact you were unnecessarily fierce with everyone. You reap what you sow. Oh, and just for reference, I recommend you reread what Jersey Mike posted to you just because you thought your 'joke' was funny.
Continue rotting in bed, thanks.
Dear Ole CC seeking our sympathies............... again??
If I recall properly, we all OVERDID our sympathies to CC the first time his
'condition' was known.... tho it later came to look (and sound) like a FALSE gig.
Clear. You BETRAYED our over-endearing trust, gramps!
WHETHER YOUR CONDITION WAS REAL OR NOT, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED LET'S LEAVE
THAT --ALL-- OUT TO PASTURE.... NO TIME TO RE-HASH SECONDHAND POSTINGS.
This is a TRANSIT Board... not a SYMPATHY Well.
We've already given ALL necessary and due sympathies to you!!
If ye expect us to pour-on the sympathies EVERY $@$@#! TIME you post, ...... as if you're some sort of miracle...
.....then Ye must first walk on water.
This is a TRANSIT Board... not a SYMPATHY Well.
-The Unspoken Minority .
Once again I hope you health gets better in time 8-).
Unfortunately your illness has affected your memory. When you first mentioned that you were ill, there was a great outpouring of sympathy from other Sub Talkers. We recognized your illness, wished you well, and have accepted you as a member of the Sub Talk community. Your status in this community is not dependant on your health, and as much as we might like it to, our commenting on your health continuously will not affect your condition. You will either get better or die, and what we post on this board will not change the outcome. Some others of us face serious health problems also, but since this is not Health Talk, we do not mention them.
I have lived through the last months of friends with terminal cancer and AIDS. In neither situation did I spend any time expressing concern over their serious and on-going health problems. We just lived life day to day, trying to find what pleasure we could in the time available to us.
If you get pleasure from discussing trains and particularly the New York subways, this is the place for you. If you want expressions of concern regarding your health problems, visit doctors.
Tom
Next stop on the Sea Beach: New Utrecht Avenue, and a possible transfer if you wish to #3 BMT Jeff's West End Line.
With CC, I bluntly recall, there WAS.
I wish the brah well.. but WHY (for the love of Pirmann) must he keep
mentioning it to us constantly... how much more sympathy DOES he want?
It was fair play for Jersey City. The other Bay, New York, was the scene of the Black Tom explosion in 1916. The Statue of Liberty still has pockmarks from it.
Does the name "John Waybe Bobbitt" ring a bell?
A midstate light rail?
Thanks!!!!
"It's like night and day".
It is uncertain why NJT chose to essentially turn a four story tall 19 year-old modern structure into an MoW lounge instead of upgrading the interlocking machine. I guess for some reason they feel it is more reliable to use CCTV systems and telephone links to keep on top
of happenings at the terminal rather than have staff physically on site.
NJT joins SEPTA as the second commuter railroad to eliminate off of its towers in 2003. Let us hope that NJT faces a similar drop in on-time performance as a reward for their short-sightedness.
Jimmy
It's funny....When I saw it last week. It was sitting on rusty wheels and rustier rails....Looks like it has not turned a wheel in some time.
Still don't believe it? Go wait at a C station until you turn blue in the face and I promise you that it will not come through.
Either way, they aren't running, which is what I had expected.
The R-68A's and R-110B's had better not be going to the 7.
OTOH, the Steinway tubes could use a widening job.
Um, why don't YOU follow some of YOUR OWN advice? He corrected his mistake YESTERDAY!!!!! Why are you still yelling at him??? READ the thread before you post!!!!!
I could go back and look it up, but I believe the last trip was a six-car gap train (3001-3006) in March or April 2001. I remember seeing it at Spring Street SB around then, doing a C turn from 168 to WTC. As for 3007-3009, that things been grounded since 1998 or maybe even earlier. They should still be visible from the el at 215 Street station. Its very deceiving and looks a great deal like an R-68 from that viewpoint.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Mark: Thank you for setting the record straight. Maybe the R-110B is parked at 76 Street and Pitkin Avenue which is why so many though they saw it.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I did see a ten-car set of R-160's, but it went by on the express track.
I really have zero reason to lie about something so trival. No one is saying that anyone saw the cars like yesterday or this past tuesday.
This was back in May...
If the cars were retired in 2000. Why was the cars spotted in 2001 (by someone else) AND spotted in May of this year. I can say that things happen in the TA for no reason. Wierd things, prime example Tuesday's screw up on the 6 line with 4 Line Equipment. This is system is so screwed up that things are liable to happen....
I'm bowing down gracefully and I've made a decision to no longer post, the second something just a little out of the ordinary happens, people go off the deep end, one of the main reasons I barely post here as it is.
Enjoy the board, and I'll see ya all next lifetime!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
Definitely. There could be any reason that train was in service. It may be in usable shape and somehow there was a shortage of R32/28s for the C line. Maybe they were expecting some dignitaries to be riding on 8th Avenue so they threw a (somewhat crippled) high tech train out there.
And of course there's always the same reason that we see the occaisonal R46 on the E line... a rookie yardmaster screwed up.
<I'm bowing down gracefully and I've made a decision to no longer post>
Trevor, your photographs and other contirubtions are a great asset here, please reconsider.
til next time
I'm leaving because I'm tired! And your reply proves how tired this board is! I don't have to prove myself to anyone, THOUGH I had, by showing several people the slides. But that's neither here nor there!
My decision to leave is justified by SEVERAL situation, this was just the icing on the cake.
OH and BTW anyone that e-mails someone calling them a "punk-ass wussy-boy" anonymously because I've decided to leave a board clearly needs help and is a wuss themselves for not showing their e-mail (Not stating its your but the message is now out there)!
Someone has a slide scanner, we'll scan and scrutinize!!!!!!! Invites Out and so am I!
Regards & Final Post,
Trevor Logan Junior
Adam
Peace,
ANDEE
In any case, the R-110Bs definitely have not run in some time.
David
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If this is true, it would be great to get some photos to share with subtalkers! :-) -Nick
til next time
That reason is that they are no longer needed since they proved themselves as test vehicles. They'll never run again.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Mark
Do you all agree that public transit allows the elderly, the blind, the physically impaired, the young and those otherwise incapable of driving an alternative that leaves the roads and sidewalks much safer for everyone?
I think that as the population ages, public transit will become more necessary to allow the elderly a safe mode of self-directed transit. The debate around public transit often centers around getting people out of their cars. The elderly are one group that often should be out of their cars, and perhaps it's time to help them make the right choice by encouraging the development of walkable communities and of public transit that provides a reasonable alternative to the automobile. A combination of zoning for walkable densities and excellent public transit will get drivers, including the elderly, out of their cars.
Obviously most of the readers of SubTalk already live in good public transit places, but should accidents like this one push other communities to focus more on public transit?
The fact that seniors often can't drive themselves is another reason to build good transit systems combined with higher density and mixed purpose land use patterns that make both transit and walking practical means of getting around.
Mark
What was VERY VERY SCARY in that same article was when she mentioned that at her eye exam she spoke with a 50 year old man WHO DROVE A SEMI CROSS COUNTRY for a living - I believe his quote was "I know the way".
As our population ages, we need $ spent for more elderly friendly public transport.
Probably nothing that would yet affect his vision. Holders of commercial driver's licenses are subject to periodic physical testing. A significant loss of eyesight would be detected pretty quickly.
On the other hand, airline pilots face mandatory, age-based retirement. Certainly the risks are higher, but if pilots can be cut off, why NOT drivers?
Mark
Just for commercial flying. As far as I know, there's no age limit at all for private pilot's licenses.
Ironically, Santa Monica has one of the better municipal bus services around. Low fares, too. It also has a large elderly population who *do* (in my observation over many years of visiting S.M.) make good use of the buses. Just so tragic that this particular elderly man didn't.
Incidentally this item made top headlines in the New Zealand newpapers this (Friday 18 July) morning.
I am in total favor of continual testing for drivers of all ages. If you can't drive, do not have good reaction times, or it simply looks like you got your license at K-mart, then STAY OFF THE ROAD! No offense to the good people at K-mart.
In this day and age (and in most states), you can no longer hide poor driving abilities behind alcohol, drugs (illegal AND prescription), or now simply being tired. Why does it still seem to be ok to hide poor driving abilities behind age or stupidity. If my driving abilities deteriorate without my knowledge...then get me the heck off the road! Let's face it, the older you get, the less likely your "as good" at things as you used to be. I'm 40 now...and already there's creaks, soreness, and momentary lapses of memory every now and then. This does not happen to everyone! Periodic testing could keep those that are a danger off the roads.
A few years ago in Atlantic City, an elderly woman and her friend were killed as their car plunged from a 9th story parking garage at one of the casinos....must have hit the gas instead of the brake.
Even in my hometown outside of Philadelphia, a few years ago another elderly woman crashed her car into a UPS truck. Why? She forgot to remove the big sun shade from her windshield. Hello??
I agree, improved public transportation will help. However, given the choice..most people will still take their cars...people want the freedom to go wherever and whenever they want.
I feel for the families of the killed and injured. I also feel for the man who did this. But I think its time we wake up, and realize that the drivers license that you got when you were 16 should not be yours to keep for the next 70 years. You had to earn it then, you need to show that you can still handle the responsibilities now.
Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I think a big part of the problem, and I've said this a million times before, is that we've designed our cities and towns so that driving is the usually the most convenient option and in many places the only option. It is possible to design a town where walking, transit, and biking are more convenient than driving, we've just chosen not to do so. This kind of sound urban planning isn't just for big cities, but medium-sized ones and small towns, too. Where a large cities can be designed so subways are the best way to get around, small towns can be designed so that everything is reachable by foot or bike.
But we haven't done that kind of smart designing in fifty years. Sensible urban planning is only slowly making a comeback. Downtowns are slowly being revived, while sprawl-style development is spreading as fast as ever.
Mark
Back in the day when Hector was a pup we used to wonder if someone got their license at Sears or Montgomery Wards; whether it was because both chains were catalog merchants or because they each had a driving school connected with their auto service centers in some of the larger markets I don't recall.
In a number of states now drivers are being retested IF they have had a moving violation since their last renewal. Unfortunately, there are other states that are extending renewal cycles out to the ten year mark or beyond, which negates much of the benefit of this. Personally, I prefer a four or five year renewal cycle with retesting (written and eye test) for all drivers, and a road test for anyone with a moving violation. But the cost of implementing that would be significant and it would also be politically unpopular so I doubt we'll ever see it.
Until nexct time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naturally this is quite expensive, it would have to be conducted by private companies, but could also be held at schools or whatever. Cost might be $50.00 per session, but a small price to pay to keep a driver's license.
Elias
On another tangent, the goal of the TWU is 20 years work for 50 years pay, with other people working more fore less to make up the difference, if their push for a 20/50 pension is to be believed. But let's say there was a T/O who actually liked his/her job. Is there any limit or re-certification for operating a train? It may not have come up, but it will. Given the likely status of the labor market in 2020, NYCT may have to hire people 55 to 70 years old to replace 50 year olds retiring to a life of leisure.
Try again. The 20/50 pension plan being pushed would allow us to retire after 20 years of service AND reaching the age of 50 (with an extra 5% from each check going to fund it). The current deal is 25 years of service and reaching age 55. Right now, I will reach 25 years at age 60. Of course, Soc Sec and stuff like that won't kick in until I'm 67 (assuming its continued existence).
The outer limit for operating a train is your continued good (in the mind of Transit) health. I'm 41 and have already had two run-ins with this mindset (contact me privately to see what we're up against). The chances of my still being employed as a T/O in 19 years are dropping - this is why they make promotional tests.
Painting with a broad brush -- the elderly want public transit which serves retail and residential areas. The commuter crowd wants service to business and industrial areas. The elderly crowd wants easy boarding and minimal walking from the transit stop to the destination (i.e. frequent stops). The commuter crowd wants speed.
It's a very difficult interplay. In my little suburb, the village runs a variety of senior citizen busses around town -- despite the fact that the village is very well served by LI Bus. The seniors want (and many need) to be dropped off at the entrance to the supermarket -- not on the corner a block or two away.
The dedicated senior transportation seems to be the best model I've seen for giving the elderly a viable alternative to driving.
CG
Mark
There is a similar system here. The municipal bus service costs only 30¢ for seniors, but it is supplemented by another ten passenger bus which goes to the senior day center, a couple of supermarkets, and four senior housing developments. The senior bus is free to senior residents, and is funded by other funds than the regular bus service.
Tom
What I was thinking of doing was replacing the "B" train with a service that would run from the Brighton exp/West End line (wherever the B train runs) then over the northside to 2nd avenue. After that, it could run to queens blvd at 63rd (and the E/F would have reduced headways). The M would use the Chrystie connector to replace B service on 6th av/CPW (running local though), and the J would be extended to Brooklyn in place of the "M".
Story here
On the map only (2),(5) and <5> runs on White Plains.
Wrong line number in the window?!
I don't know if there is one at Livonia.
You are correct. To provide relief for long-suffering WPR/Times Square or Penn Station riders who had to suffer additional local stops below 96th during this period, a few 3s were put into peak directional service: a couple to and from Nereid, and few more to and from 180th.
One morning in summer '02, I made it a point to get to Nereid super early for the unusual experience of riding a 62A along White Plains. We were right behind a 5 all the way to 180th, and at every stop most of the remaining passengers eagerly boarded the 3 I was on. Likewise all local stops below 180th. When I got off at 96th, a 2 pulled in immediately afterward. It was empty.
So this special service was obviously very popular in the morning. I never got to ride it outbound in the afternoon, but am sure that most people headed for the Bronx wouldn't get on any R62A signed as a 3 even if it were clearly signed and announced as headed to 180th or Nereid (or 241st, or whatever the sign on a 62A would say). Likewise, I bet lots of people on these rerouted 3s would assume they were headed to Lenox Terminal and become hysterical upon arriving at 149th/Concourse.
Unfortunately, 1 and 2 riders from Brooklyn had no stop-gap peak express service for the West Side. It was either all local to 14th, or changing at Atlantic.
The brave souls are:
-Myself (that's me, Kool-D)
-R30
-and a brand new Subtalker who will be joining us here on this board shortly. His wife will accompany him on the entire trip. In advance of joining this wonderful family; Welcome Aboard.
The date: Thursday, July 24, time and location for the starting gate is TBD.
There was tremendous interest in this elusive goal any railfanner wanted to do and I salute everyone for this. Thank you for those who were interested.
Choo Choo will join us sometime during the course of the trip.
ATTENTION: Please note that while I do appreciate anyone who comes along with us for part of the trip, there will be a film crew with us and please do not just jump in front of the camera as we are in the process of conducting interviews, taking action shots of us moving around, etc. Please respect that and when we do the actual footage, you might want to take a seat on the train at a safe distance, who knows, your face might be in the final cut.
As the countdown begins one week from today, I will fill you in on this board as the time and place we will begin this trip. On the trip days, I will let you know how you can catch up with us on my UPOC NYC Subway Stories group site, where from time to time, I will be posting from my mobile phone how the gang is doing, what we covered and where we at.
I will discuss with the crew as to make an allowance for us to use the F shuttle bus and the B68 so that all stations are covered. This will save us time too.
For the 3 line at Lenox Terminal, we have to double back to 110th/CPN if we need to continue on a Bronx-bound #2 train. You get the idea now.
They probably can take an express after they've already gotten the stations in that section, like say go to Flushing via express and return on the local...
In the case of the first two, I would ride both. In the case of the Lex, I would feel comfortable just riding the express. It is right below the local, versus being somewhere far away.
They probably can take an express after they've already gotten the stations in that section, like say go to Flushing via express and return on the local...
Yeah, they probably will.
See you somewhere.
No, he is my friend. I told him about it. He is more of a Strappies person...
My math: 6 minutes wait (on avg) at each station * 464 stations = 2784 minutes of waiting / 60 min per hour = 46.4 hours. So the total trip would take 30 hours + 46.4 = 76.4 hours.
Oh, and please refrain from chasing certain MYSTICAL women..
It's a subway theme.... not Blind Date! (yet...)
LOL
Awww, so you mean it's against the rules to change the sign and make the train go elsewhere? :)
ALL women are mystical...that's what makes them interesting...
Good point, brah!
Ameng to that!!
But still.... Boiz, make us all proud, now!
Bill "Newkirk"
Welcome aboard.
We are also open to any suggestions from other fellow Subtalkers about the planned route. Remember, that during late nights, we must avoid the 1 to SF, the G and L lines in Brooklyn, the W from 57/7 to Lexington Ave, and the 6 line to/from the Bronx, those are the worst offenders.
(3) New Lots-148th Street (Entire Line)
(3) 148th Street-135th Street or 96th Street
**TRANSFER TO (2)**
(2) Wherever you Transfer-241st Street
(2) 241st Street-E 180th Street
**TRANSFER TO (5)**
(5) E 180th Street-Dyre Avenue
(5) Dyre Avenue-125 Street
**TRANSFER TO (6)**
(6) 125th Street-Pelham Park
(6) Pelham Park-Brooklyn Bridge
If running use Diamond 6 one way to take some time off
**TRANSFER TO (4)**
(4) Brooklyn Bridge-Atlantic Avenue
**TRANSFER TO (2)**
(2) Atlantic Avenue-Flatbush Avenue/Brooklyn College
(2) Flatbush Avenue/Brooklyn College-Franklin Avenue
**TRANSFER TO (S)**
(S) Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue
(S) Frankin Avenue-Prospect Park
Continue from there
I was thinking more like starting on a route where it take a long time to double back, like Avenue X on the F would be a good starting point, because we have to backtrack to 4th Ave to change to another train.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Then you don't need to bother backtracking from the 3 to the 2. Start with the 3 and use the 4 or 5 later on to get to the Bronx.
So we can run #1 local for the entire route and if we loop through SF, we can use the #2 or #3 Uptown.
Midday (10 AM-3PM)
A: Far Rock shuttle
4: S/B express from Burnside to 149th st/GC
LATE NIGHTS (11:30 pm-5:30 am)
1: Shuttle bus, Chambers to SF and Downtown bypass 103/116 (all times)
2 and 4: Manhattan bound bypass EP, GAP, and Bergen in Brooklyn
6: 2 sections, transfer at 125th st/Lex Ave to continue trip
A: via. F line from West 4th st to Jay (southbound)
E: Jamaica Center bound, express from QP to Roosevelt
F and G: F Manhattan bound express from 4th Ave to Jay, AND no G trains from Hoyt to Smith-9th (with single track from Hoyt to Bedford Nostrand and change trains at Bedford-Nostrand to continute trip)
L: Shuttle bus Lorimer to BJ
N: Single track 59th st to 8th Ave, no trains north of 59th st/4th Ave
W: 5th Ave/60 st closed, no trains between 57/7 and Lex.
Route From To Approx Time
1 Times Square SF loop 1230
1 SF Loop Chambers 1240
2 Chambers Flatbush 120
2 Flatbush Franklin 140
3 Franklin New Lots 200
3 New Lots Utica 220
4 Utica Atlantic 230
Q local Atlantic BB 300
Q Exp BB PP 320
Shuttle PP Franklin 330
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 350
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 425
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts 500
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 540
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction 630
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 650
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 740
C 14th St Hoyt-Scher. 810
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 840
E 23rd/Ely Queens Plaza 850
R or V Queens Plaza Continetal 920
E or F Continetal Roosevelt` 940`
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 1010
7 Main St Times Sqaure 1040
1 Times Square 242/VCP 1115
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1150
A 168th srt 207th st 1220 AM
A 207th st Jay St (via F line) 140 AM
A Jay St (via. A line) 59th st CC 230 AM
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 330 AM
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 350 AM
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 420 AM
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 500 AM
4 Woodlawn 125th st 530AM
6 125th st Pelham Bay Park 615 AM
6 Express PBP Brooklyn Bridge 715 AM
4 Brooklyn Bridge Fulton St 730 AM
3 Fulton St 148th St/Lenox 810 AM
3 148th St/Lenox 110th st/CPW 830
2 110th st/CPW 241st st/WPR 920
2 241/WPR East 180th st 950 AM
5 East 180th st Dyre 1015 AM
5 Dyre 59th st/Lex 1100
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 1130
N Astoria 86th st 1250 PM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 120 PM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 140
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 200
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 230
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X 250
F Avenue X 179th St 400
F 179th st Union Turnpike 420
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 450
J Jamaica Center Myrtle 540
M Myrtle Metropolitan 610
M Metropolitan Broad St 700 PM
7th Ave/53rd st in Manhattan also needs to be fitted into this route plan somewhere. There is always one thorn in your massive plans.
4 or 5 Brooklyn Bridge to Bowling Green
4 or 5 Bowling Green to 42nd/GC
Shuttle to Times Square
3 from Times Square to 148th st/Lenox... then continue rest of route.
Better than this, start at Lexington Avenue on th E, this gets all the crosstown E stations
If you slip the 2 and 5 in between the 4 and the 6, you'll save a lot of time later on backtracking from the 3 to the 2. That way you can take the 3 straight back to Times Square for the N/W. You might also catch a 5 express (I'm not looking at the schedule and I'm not sure if they run that early). The 6 express runs middays, so you're still fine there.
It wouldn't be hard to hit 5th and 7th at this point: just take an E instead of an A. Then transfer at 7th to the D. (You don't need Lex since you already got it upstairs on the 6.)
Route From To
1 Times Square SF loop
1 SF Loop Chambers
2 Chambers Flatbush
2 Flatbush Franklin
3 Franklin New Lots
3 New Lots Utica
4 Utica BB/CH
6 BB/CH 14th st/US
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP
Shuttle PP Franklin
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher.
C Hoyt Scher Euclid
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover)
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue
C 14th St Hoyt-Scher.
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza
R or V Queens Plaza Continental
E or F Continental Roosevelt`
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing
7 Main St Times Sqaure
1 Times Square 242/VCP
1 242nd VCP 168th st
A 168th srt 207th st
A 207th st 23rd St
E 23rd st 7th Ave
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return
D BPB 161st st/River Ave
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US
Q, Q exp or W 14th st/US 42nd st/TS
3 42ND St./TS 148th st/Lenox Term
3 148TH st/Lenox Term 42nd st/TS
W 42nd st/TS Astoria
N Astoria 86th st
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave
W 36th st Stillwell/CI
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X
F Avenue X B’way-Lafayette
GSS B’way-Lafayette and return Return to B’way-Lafayette
F B’way-Lafayette 179th st.
F 179th st Union Turnpike
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center
J Jamaica Center Myrtle
M Myrtle Metropolitan
M Metropolitan Broad St
Later on, when we arrive at 14th st/US from the S/B 6 train early Friday morning, we can double back on 4 and 5 express to 59th st/Lex (faster than the slow N or W from 14th st), go upstairs and do the N or W to Astoria and return on the N towards Brooklyn. BINGO!
The important thing now is when the trip is finished, we don't have that far to go home, Broad St is the expected finish line and I can take the M to Q express home. Good point!
Thats also if we are allowed to use the F shuttle.... I hope we are
So, automatically all those who couldn't MAKE the meeting were
eliminated by absence default..
Pbbbt.
Not true. I believe 3 out of the 4 who are going were NOT at the ERA meeting.
And I just wrote that that was untrue. Did you read Kool-D's first post on this subject, this past Thursday? It lists who is going and it's pretty clear there are more than three people.
I spoke to the woman beforehand and she said "Come to the ERA Meeting
where we will select our participants".
Can't make meeting sounded to = cut.
Which I did... but was told to go to the meeting.... which
I already told ya's I couldn't make... and me being a distant
cousin to anything ERA or BERA, I was pretty much DQ by absence default.
Curious how y'all got picked... no biggie.. THANKS for sharing.
Hope you all make us brahs PROUD!!
How about saving the F for last and do a loop from M, to J, to Queens via. E and back on the F.
W Coney Island-9th Ave or Pacific
M 9th Ave or Pacific-Metropolitan
M Metropolitan-B'way/Myrtle
J B'way/Myrtle-Jamaica Center
E Jamaica Center-Union Turnpike
F Union Turnpike-179th st
F 179th st-B'way Lafayette
GSS B'way Lafayette-Grand and return
F B'way-Lafayette-Avenue X END OF ROUTE
Plus we don't have to ride the excruciating F back and forth in Brooklyn, we do it on the last leg.
I am also making some minor revisions to the routing to save some time for late night travel.
Not like they're taking our brahs to shackle them up like gorillas.
Within fare control? Good luck on finding one you want to use. Actually, if you prepared correctly with the correct foods and beverages before beginning your trip, you would be able to go 30 hours without a bathroom stop.
Tom
30 hours? Maybe if you severely dehydrated yourself, but that could be dangerous.
Tip: If you need to use a subway bathroom use Grand Central (not upstairs) since it is a renovated station it might have an "avarage" bathroom.
Well anyway good luck to all participants and have a great railfan evening!
Flushing7
Peace,
ANDEE
R 34St-95St
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal
Q Canal-BB
BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
V Ely-47/50St
D 47/50St-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots
3 New Lots-Franklin
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-6Av
F/V 14St-34St
You still have a good plan in my book.
R 34St-95St
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St (Why go all the way to 36th st? Why not New Utrecht for the W and do W to 9th Ave and return?)
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal (It's repeating back to Canal, plus you can do this on the J too.)
Q Canal-BB
BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
V Ely-47/50St
D 47/50St-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots
3 New Lots-Franklin
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-6Av (What about 8th Ave? That must be covered.)
F/V 14St-34St (You already covered the F from B'way-Lafayette to Roosevelt-JH on the on the earlier part of the trip so this is not needed, might as well end the trip at 8th Ave station on the L.)
If you change at New Utrecht you will skip the stations 9Av, FtHP,
50St, 55St cos the shuttle bus is used.
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal (It's repeating back to Canal, plus you can do this on the J too.)
I know it. If a J departs earlier you will save time.
L Canarsie-6Av (What about 8th Ave? That must be covered.)
F/V 14St-34St (You already covered the F from B'way-Lafayette to Roosevelt-JH on the on the earlier part of the trip so this is not needed, might as well end the trip at 8th Ave station on the L.)
Done it to get a loop. I've thought passing 14St with C counts for
the 8 Av L station. So the "end" :
L Canarise-8Av
L 8 Av-US
N/W/Q/R US-34St
Big problem, but i'm thinking about it:
R Times Sq-Forest Hills
Late nights is no service on the 60 St tunnel connector to QP
R 34St-95St (Late nights: W 34St-36St)
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N/W QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH (Late Nights: no 60St connector service!)
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad (Evening/Nights J Myrtle-Broad;weekends no service Canal-Broad)
M Broad-Canal (weekends no J/M service)
Q Canal-BB
Q BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
E Ely-7Av
D 7Av-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots (late nights 4)
3 New Lots-Franklin (late nights 4)
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St (no late night service)
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid (late night A)
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-8Av
L 8Av-US
W/N/R/Q US-34St
We do not make this trip on the weekend so we don't have to worry about Broad and Fulton closures on the J.
The 3 train to Lenox terminal may be a time problem, we might be on 96th st at 5 AM and there is no Uptown 3 service until after 5:45 PM from 96th st/Broadway.
I have to do a mock time point for each leg just as I have done for the original routing to see if it's doable.
The decision between me, R30 and skfny for the route will be final, hopefully we can all agree on this tommorrow.
I would be very proud if you ride the (my) Loop.
There is a service advisory for the late night #2 line in the Bronx that is not posted on the MTA web site. There is single tracking in effect Midnight to 5AM all this week from north of 135th st (where the #2 switches off from the #3) to just before 3rd Ave/East 149th st. All trains use the S/B track and the N/B platform at 149th st/GC is closed.
I think the best starting point is GC with the (6) -> CH or
(6) - >PBP (reverse loop)
I'm going to calculate it. Current i start at 148St/Lenox with
calculating. The shuttle bus is going to be reached at 9:35pm
Found a little error in a part of my loop:
"1 Chambers-CC-SF"
sould be
"1 Chambers-SF"
a little reminder of the construction (1/3/A/C CC-Bronx-Loop)
Starting at 148St/Lenox in the "downreading" order end at the
late night hole of the 60 St tunnel connector.
I calculate the reverse order
R Times-FH (Late Nights: no 60St connector service!)
F FH-179 0140 0150 *2220 2230
F 179-UT 0120 0130
E UT-JC 0100 0110
J JC-Myrtle 0020 0050
M Myrtle-Metro 2355 0010
M Metro-Myrtle 2335 2350
J Myrtle-Broad 2305 2325
J Broad-Canal 2255 2300
Q Canal-BB 2210 2245
Q BB-PP 2140 2205
S PP-Franklin 2125 2135
C Franklin-Hoyt 2110 2120
G Hoyt-Court 2045 2105
E Ely-7Av 2030 2035
D 7Av-205St 1945 2025
D 205St-161St 1925 1940
4 161St-Wood 1905 1920
4 Wood-149St 1840 1900
2 149St-241St 1810 1840
2 241St-180St 1750 1805
5 180St-Dyre 1735 1745
5 Dyre-125St 1650 1730
6 125St-PBP 1610 1640
6 PBP-CH 1505 1605 *GC 1200 1245
4 CH-Utica 1440 1500
3 Utica-New Lots 1425 1435
3 New Lots-Franklin 1400 1420
2 Franklin-Flatbush 1340 1355
2 Flatbush-Chambers 1305 1335
1 Chambers-SF 1255 1300
1 SF-96St 1220 1250
3 96St-148St 1200 1215
With F Shuttle Bus
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square 1030
1 Times Square SF loop 1050
1 SF Loop Chambers 1100
2 Chambers Flatbush 1130
2 Flatbush Franklin 1150
3 Franklin New Lots 1220
3 New Lots Utica 1240
4 Utica BB/CH 110
6 BB/CH 14th st/US 120
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach 200
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP 220
Shuttle PP Franklin 240
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 300
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 330
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts 400
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 420
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction 550
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 610
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 700
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC 720
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC and return to Chambers) 740
A or C Chambers Hoyt Scher. 810
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 850
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st 910
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza 930
R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH 950
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 1020
7 Main St Times Sqaure 1100
1 Times Square 242/VCP 1140
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1210
A 168th srt 207th st 1240
A 207th st 59th st/CC 130
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 210
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 230
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 300
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 340
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC 420
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield 510
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st 540
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave 600
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex 630
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park 710
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US 820
4 or 5 14th st/US 59th St/Lex 840
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 900
N Astoria 86th st 1010
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 1040
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 1100
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 1130
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 1200
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X 1220
F Avenue X B’way-Lafayette 100
GSS B’way-Lafayette and return Return to B’way-Lafayette 120
F B’way-Lafayette Roosevelt/JH 200
R or V Roosevelt/JH 71st/Continental 220
F 71st/Continetal 179th St. 240
F 179th St. Union Turnpike 300
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 310
J Jamaica Center Myrtle 340
M Myrtle Metropolitan 410
M Metropolitan Broad St 500
Without F Shuttle Bus
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square
1 Times Square SF loop
1 SF Loop Chambers
2 Chambers Flatbush
2 Flatbush Franklin
3 Franklin New Lots
3 New Lots Utica
4 Utica BB/CH
6 BB/CH 14th st/US
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP
Shuttle PP Franklin
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher.
C Hoyt Scher Euclid
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover)
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC station and return)
A or C Chambers Hoyt-Scher.
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza
R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing
7 Main St Times Sqaure
1 Times Square 242/VCP
1 242nd VCP 168th st
A 168th srt 207th st
A 207th st 59th st/CC
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return
D BPB 161st st/River Ave
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US
4 or 5 14th st/US 59th St/Lex
W 59th st/Lex Astoria
N Astoria 86th st
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave
W 36th st Stillwell/CI
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific
M 9th Ave or Pacific Metropolitan
M Metropolitan Myrtle-Broadway
J Myrtle-Broadway Jamaica Center
E Jamaica Center Union Turnpike
F Union Turnpike 179th st
F 179th st 71st/Continental
R or V 71st/Continental Roosevelt/JH
F Roosevelt/JH B’way-Lafayette
GSS B’way-Lafayette Grand St and return
F B’way-Lafayette Avenue X
Yikes.
(Then they can ride the 2/3 express between 72nd and 96th, since they'll also be hitting 79th on the W.)
I don't think that's right. Each station complex counts as one station.
S GC-Times
1 Times-96St 1200 1210
3 96St-148St 1215 1230 ***
3 148St-96St 1235 1250 ***
1 96St-VCP 1255 1330
1 VCP-168St 1335 1350
A 168St-207St 1355 1405
A 207St-168St 1410 1420
C 168St-Euclid 1425 1530
A Euclid-Lefferts 1540 1550
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd 1555 1600
A Rock Blvd-FR 1610 1640
A FR-BC 1645 1700
S BC-RP 1710 1720
S RP-BC 1725 1730
A BC-ENY 1740 1810
L ENY-Canarsie 1815 1825
L Canarsie-8Av 1830 1910
L 8Av-US 1915 1920
R US-FH 1925 2010 ***
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad (Evening/Nights J Myrtle-Broad;weekends no service Canal-Broad)
M Broad-Canal (weekends no J/M service)
Q Canal-BB
Q BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
E Ely-7Av
D 7Av-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-US
R US-95St (Late nights: W US-36St)
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N/W QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
1 Times-SF
1 SF-Chambers
2 Cahmbers-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Franklin
3 Franklin-New Lots (late nights 4)
3 New Lots-Utica (late nights 4)
4 Utica-CH
6 CH-GC
DATE: Thursday, July 24 @ 12 Noon
Starting Location: 148th st/Lenox Terminal on the #3 line
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square 12:20 PM
1 Times Square SF loop 12:45 PM
1 SF Loop Chambers 12:55 PM
2 Chambers Flatbush 1:25 PM
2 Flatbush Franklin 1:45 PM
3 Franklin New Lots 2:05 PM
3 New Lots Utica 2:20 PM
4 Utica BB/CH 2:50 PM
6 BB/CH 42ND St/GC 3:00 PM
TS/GCS Grand Central Times Square 3:10 PM
Q local 42nd st/Times Square Brighton Beach 4:00 PM
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP 4:20PM
FAS PP Franklin 4:30PM
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 4:50 PM
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 5:10 PM
A Euclid Broad Channel 5:30 PM
RPS Broad Channel Rockaway Park 5:45 PM
RPS Rockaway Park Broad Channel 6:00 PM
A Broad Channel Far Rockaway 6:20 PM
A Far Rockaway Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 6:50 PM
A Rockaway Blvd Lefferts Blvd 7:00 PM
A Lefferts Blvd Broadway Junction 7:30 PM
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 7:45 PM
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 8:30 PM
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC 8:50 PM
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC station and return) 9:10 PM
A or C Chambers Hoyt-Scher. 9:30 PM
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 10:00 PM
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st 10:10 PM
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza 10:25 PM
G, R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH 10:40 PM
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 11:00 PM
7 Main St Times Sqaure 11:45 PM
1 Times Square 242/VCP 12:25 AM
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1:00 AM
A 168th srt 207th st 1:20 AM
A 207th st 59th st/CC 2:00 AM
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 2:40 AM
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 3:00 AM
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 3:25 AM
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 4:00 AM
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC 4:40 AM
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield 5:25 AM
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st 5:50 AM
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave 6:20 AM
5 Thru Exp. Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex 7:00 AM
6 Local 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park 7:30 AM
6 Exp. Pelham Bay Park 42nd st/GC 8:30 AM
4 5 or 6 42nd st/GC 59th St/Lex 8:40 AM
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 9:00 AM
N Astoria 86th st 10:20 AM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 10:50 AM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 11:10 AM
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 11:30 AM
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 12 Noon
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific 12:25 PM
M 9th Ave or Pacific Essex St/Delancey 1:00 PM
F Delancey/Essex B’way Lafayette 1:10 PM
GSS B’way/Lafayette Grand St. and return 1:30 PM
F B’way/Lafayette Roosevelt Ave/JH 2:10 PM
R or V Roosevelt Ave/JH 71st/Continental Aves 2:30 PM
F 71st/Continental Aves 179th st 2:50 PM
F 179th st Union Turnpike 3:15 PM
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 3:30 PM
J Jamaica Center Myrtle/Broadway 4:10 PM
M Myrtle/Broadway Metropolitan 4:30 PM
M Metropolitan Essex/Delancey 5:10 PM
F Delancey/Essex Avenue X END OF ROUTE 6:00 PM
END OF ROUTE: Avenue X/Culver Line
No, it's a taping for a show to be aired on the Discovery/NY Times channel to be aired in October.
Good luck to Kool-D, Choo Choo, and everyone else on this daring trip.
Thank you very much, however Choo Choo will only be joining us for part of the trip as a spectator. Hopefully if we are not too late, Choo Choo can meet us at the finish line in Brooklyn, but for him, it's really cutting it close at this point if we tread at the six o'clock hour.
I don't have cable for my personal reasons but check the channel guide of your cable or satellite provider, it should be there.
Assume we don't experience any delays or scheduling problems, we can finish everything and be at Avenue X by 4:30 PM, 5 PM at the latest.
I looked at the NYCT subway schedules to confirm travel time between points, and add 5-15 minutes for waiting time for each leg, depending on line we are waiting for the next train and time of day.
You can catch up on a computer or a mobile phone as I input where we at, who dropped out (hopefully nobody), and what adventures we are experiencing.
Follow these simple steps:
1. Go to the
For want of a quotation mark (") a link was lost. :-)
Tom
Follow these simple steps:
1. Go to the
...
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 9:00 AM
N Astoria 86th st 10:20 AM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 10:50 AM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 11:10 AM
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 11:30 AM
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 12 Noon
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific 12:25 PM
M 9th Ave or Pacific Essex St/Delancey 1:00 PM
...
Be careful about this part...don't accidentally skip 25, Prospect, 9, and Union...maybe you meant to say 36th St instead of Pacific?
But.... let's leave a bit of legroom during the overnight 20 min headways...
2. One you registered your handle, you might want to link it to your mobile phone. This way you can receive text or WAP messages on your phone when you are outside.
3. My group is NYC Subway Stories, perform a search on the Upoc homepage from your computer. Then when you found my group (I have a different handle for my use when I am in Upco.) join that group.
4. Now you are all set
1. Go to www.upoc.com and register your handle and password.
2. One you registered your handle, you might want to link it to your mobile phone. This way you can receive text or WAP messages on your phone when you are outside.
3. My group is NYC Subway Stories, perform a search on the Upoc homepage from your computer. Then when you found my group (I have a different handle for my use when I am in Upco.) join that group.
4. Now you are all set
Then mmy mind can rest at ease and assuming no one drops out, we all can brag we conquered North America's largest subway system.
From a GREY-haired Englishman.......
Ha ha, you say that now......
1. if you go thru city hall IRT station you get 5 bonus points plus you get to "bank" one station (i.e. can skip one other station)
2. if you get to go on the new Q track at Stillwell you get 10 bonus points but no stations to "bank"
3. if you get arrested you get to rejoin the group, if you can find them, without penalty
4. if you give a visitor a credit card he can leave the train, buy you White Castle food, and then meet you again as you double-back
5. if you convince a mystical chik to ride the remainder of the trip with you, you get 15 bonus points and the medal of valor
I have to go move my laundry to the dryer now. I'll try to type up more of the rules later.
Double points and a platinum medal if you're Qtrain.
Due to the length of this trip, I doubt that you will see any posts about this trip until saturday
Stop 1 of 468
Lenox Ave. One station out of 468. Each with its own story and thousands of people to call it their own. We start our journey now, to visit all of these stations and experience the city from its always-open transportation system. 5 of the 7 members have arrived. Signal problems on the 3 mark an ominous start.
The R-142(A)'s aren't replacing the R-62(A)'s, only the Redbirds. Why would anyone expect them to show up on all lines?
Because we're not worthy of hideous torture.
1
Some just stink worse, gramps!
Once CBTC is in place within the next 3-4 years, I suspect an equipment swap between the #2 and #7 lines would take place for CBTC to be effective. So the #2 line will have R62A's and the #7 line will have the early R142 cars in the not too distant future.
I am not obsessed with it (I haven't brought this up in a while), I just like knowing that there is an off peak <5> that makes the services 'balanced'
Unusual routings like the 5 from 242nd Street on the #1 line are good to have
the main reason that train is special is NOT Utica, but the fact that it was going to E 238 at a time where all trains were going to Dyre, also 3 different 5 trains were going to 3 different terminals 1 to Dyre, 1 to E 180th Street, 1 to E 238th Street (and 2 #5 trains in a row were not going to Dyre, the ONLY time of day where that is scheduled to happen)
Also the same #2 train now runs up to E 238th as a #2 (probably) signed for E 241st! that is NOT good as the r-142s are supposed to be so great, the redbirds were better than this
and the current 8:59 Utica only goes to E 180th Street
Unusual routings from the 5 are not good. Ever see a 5 train on the local track and a 9 train on the express track at 72nd and Broadway? It isn't a pretty sight.
No. What were they doing there?
That train signed as a 5 from 242st to Flatbush (it was actually considered a 1, but it was signed as a 5 for its return trip to the Bronx) was last scheduled to run on 9/12/02. The 9 didn't return to service until 9/15/02. Not to mention that the 9 has no business being on the express track in the first place!
So whatever you saw, it was an unscheduled fluke. A strange one, too: a rerouted 5 would typically end up on the express track, and even when 9's are sent express, they almost always stay on the local track.
Or is the idea that the 9 had some hope of getting back on schedule, but the 5 was already a lost cause?
Still, it's strange. Nothing is ever send local in these parts to fill a gap in local service -- until a 5 comes wandering over from the East Side.
I just find it a bit funny, given that attitude, that a rerouted 5 train would be sent local.
I do not know if the following 1 and 9 trains also went express and if they did, how far they went until making local stops.
An equipment switch between the 7 and the 2 is completely unnecessary.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://www.railwayage.com/apr01/cbtc.html
http://www.tsd.org/communic.htm
I am trying to imagine, for example, on the #7 line, how many more tph would be allowed by a switch to a CBTC system. Now, indirectly again, CBTC would permit some more flexibility. A common problem on this line, which I understand is a candidate for CBTC conversion in the morning rush is that local and express trains come to the merge point past 33rd Street-maybe CBTC could anticipate this in advance and try to get the express to move faster. But if the train is already going as fast as it can this would not help (a faster train with better braking would however). Better scheduling might be only way to resolve this and even then it is subject to broken trains and other incidents. I can't see how CBTC would allow greater speeds through grades or through bottlenecks like the switches at Main Street. This is just one thought experiment, and I do not think myself to be a great thinker but I cannot see how CBTC could improve capacity other than marginally doing so. Can it?
The first link provides:
"The problem with wayside signals is that trains are separated by at least two signal blocks, regardless of speed, and the spacing of the signals is no less than the stopping distance of the worst-braking train for the territory. This means that the time between successive trains is an inverse function of train speed.
In a moving block system, train spacing is determined more by the braking distance of the individual train: the faster the train speed, the longer the stopping distance; the slower the train speed, the shorter the stopping distance. As a result, the train headway is much more constant over a wide range of train speeds."
I can't read that as suggesting anything other than marginal capacity increases. Now maybe I am reading it wrong-you should correct me if I am. I can only read that right now as implying that distance between slow moving trains will be reduced allowing a marginal improvement in headways versus a system where trains may get stuck standing still more often at fixed block red signals. My comment previously was to remark on why the MTA has not chosen to improve braking on its trains, thereby directly increasing headways. Thus my harping on the term "marginal". Maybe if NYCT were operating with other FRA rolling stock then CBTC would have even more use. But as things stand I have to confess I do not see how CBTC will allow the Queens Boulevard Express or the Flushing Line or the East Side IRT to operate much shorter headways. Shorter headways maybe, but MUCH shorter I have my doubts about.
"No matter how well balanced a signal layout may be, when a temporary speed restriction is applied, it will cause an additional separation of trains at that point. With moving-block, successive trains will be able to close up faster, because of the shorter braking distance at slower speeds."
That sounds an awful lot like a more efficient system of NYC's current station time I think. Will it help things out significantly?
"In CBTC, a train pacing module can use the more accurate dispatching predictions to compute an optimum operating speed so that the train will not arrive at the point of conflict until the condition has cleared. The fuel saved by operating toward points of potential conflict at a more efficient speed can amount to a significant benefit."
Previously I used the example of a merge point on the Flushing line to wonder about this. As I read this, it sounds like it would say, in that context, "slow the local train and move the express faster insofar as it is safe." My question was whether better scheduling would be needed too and whether ultimately that was the more efficent way to go in some cases. This feature would be useful at certain merge points though (the one at Queens Plaza SB between the E and V comes to mind.
I would like to hear about what CBTC can and cannot do. Some totally write it off and others act like it will add something like 20 more tph to the Flushing line. I don't see myself as being in either camp but I think we would all gain by a discussion of how CBTC can improve headways on the NYC system and not in the abstract. If we could use concrete examples of the NYC system in that discussion it would be much more persuasive and worthwhile.
What your post doesn't acknowledge, though, is that these marginal benefits are additive during the day. Recall that a very small delay, replicated 30 times or 100 times, becomes a huge backlog. Prevent that delay in the first place, and you eliminate the cascade which resulted in the backlog.
A friend of mine designed a program which shortened the amount of taxiing an airliner had to do upon landing, by more efficiently assigning its gate. Each airliner burned a little bit less fuel per taxi - a marginal imrovement. By the end of the day, though, with dozens of airliners per terminal doing this, the airline found out it saved $100,000 every 24 hours in jet fuel. $100,000 per day times 30 days is $3 million per month or $36 million per year - at one airport!
"My comment previously was to remark on why the MTA has not chosen to improve braking on its trains, thereby directly increasing headways. Thus my harping on the term "marginal".
And how do you know how and why MTA made this choice?
My point here is that you are repeating a lot of stuff that appears on Subtalk, written by people who never even tried to look up the rationale for decisions, are not experts on anything in particular, but would like to run the subway themselves much better than the people currently running it.
You may or may not like FRA rules, but that really has no place in this discussion anyway. NYCT doesn't follow FRA.
I agree with your closing remark that CBTC needs a serious assessment. I hope that the L line experiment will show us what CBTC can do. If the benefits are not there, MTA need not install it elsewhere. Your point is sensible.
But please don't just repeat MTA-bashing rants about their use of CBTC or choice of brakes unless you do some homework first. Contact MTA and Bombardier, look at braking on Chicago's transit lines or LA's transit lines; get some feedback from their people about this (they'll talk to you, trust me).
My guess is your spare time will be tied up for a month or two doing that. But at least you won't be posting the kind of silly nonsense that armchair subway directors post here a lot.
All I am saying is that CBTC are doing themselves a disservice by conceding there exist direct options for increasing capacity without commenting on why their approach is better. Maybe you and I have the patience to inquire about these things? Will others? If CBTC really is the way of the future then its going to have to be better explained I think.
I close by saying that alot of this talk maybe premature though. Let us see how the great experiment on the L line turns out too. Is there any preliminary word yet?
It is possible that CBTC would make more of a difference on lines where there are not frequent stops (for example, if CBTC eliminated the need to slow down on an express train several times). On the other hand, maybe that's not true.
I don't think CBTC is active yet on the BMT Canarsie Line. I don't know where they are on installation.
CBTC would be able to do things that the current signal system cannot do example add more trains particularly on a high volume express route like the Lexington Av line. Sure it won't be flawless [nothing really is] but it should have great benefits in the future.
Now for my comment.....
WTF you mean they gonna fucking swap fleets??? Thats some bullshit!!! If anything the MTA will get new cars for the 7 Line instead of stealing them from the 2 Line, and why would they do that in the first place? They have to replace interior signs and what not and put in new announcements which cost $$$$!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ok, then.
WTF you mean they gonna fucking swap fleets??? Thats some bullshit!!! If anything the MTA will get new cars for the 7 Line instead of stealing them from the 2 Line, and why would they do that in the first place? They have to replace interior signs and what not and put in new announcements which cost $$$$!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It isn't 'BS' at all. The MTA will move cars as they see fit. There is no confirmed report of the MTA purchasing cars for the 7 yet, so hold tight on that claim. If you read Kool-D's post, he mentioned the switch would be done to test CBTC on the 7.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
By the way, 11-car R142/A sets aren't a problem. As indicated in the R142/A section in this site, they can be coupled into 11-car sets.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The 7th Avenue Line isn't getting CBTC anytime soon. Assuming the Canarsie line experiment goes well, next will be Flushing, followed by Lex. That is why the Lex has 100% R-142/A. The (6) needs them much more than the (2) does. IMO, the (2) should never have received them in the first place. But for whatever reason, they cannot currently go to the (7), and the shops/yards that serve the (2)(5) lines in the Bronx were modified to accomodate the R-142/A fleet, so it kinda makes sense for them to be put there rather than say, the (3) or the 42nd St Shuttle. But if they fix whatever problem causes R-142/A's to be banned from Flushing, they will probably swap fleets in a heartbeat, especially with electronic LED signs that can quickly be reset to local or express, ending many current problems.
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Seems to me that the MTA does not forsee any sort of retrofitting of the IRT until at least the R142's need replacing. IMO the MTA should've bitten the bullet and done a step by step IRT system-wide retrofitting.
Now before anyone starts belly aching about the pricetag and the requisite headaches it'll cause, I still say it's worth it.
What other project could streamline and add capacity at the same time?
Here are the IRT sections that can handle BMT/IND trains after shaving off a little bit from the platforms:
-Lexinton Line North of Grand Central (including GC).
-7th Ave Line South of Times Square (including TS, and excluding South Ferry station).
-All of the Bronx Els, except the West Farms portion of the 2/5 line (The White Plains Line north of E180 and the Dyre Line can handle it).
-The entire Queens portion of the 7 Line - ***See Below. (excluding the Stienway tunnels and the Manhattan portion of the line).
-The 2/3 line from Chambers to Borough Hall, including the Clark Street tunnel.
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including the Livonia El to New Lots, and the Flatbush Line)
So in summary, THESE are the lines (below) that mess up the IRT, and banish it to narrow cars - relatively a small part of the IRT:
The Contract 1 and 2 lines which include:
-The 7th Ave-Broadway Line North of Times Square to 242 Street
-The 3 line from 96th to Lenox
-The 2 line from 135th to East 180th Street
-The Lexington line south of Grand Central (including South Ferry, which was originally built as part of the Contract 2 portion of what is now the Lexington Line)
-The Joraleman (4/5) tunnel under the River to Atlantic Ave
-The 42nd Street Shuttle
Finally:
The 7 Line from Times Square to Vernon Jackson
**Note the only part I'm not sure about is the underground portion of the 7 line from Vernon Jackson to Queens Plaza. Someone else will have to finish one of the lists with that information.
Any temprorary shutdowns can be offset by shuttle buses, reliance on nearby B division lines, and a large dose of patience & public relations. Any work on the Lex should only be done when and if the 2nd Ave subway is built.
I've been on crush loaded late night 1/2 trains, running on 10-minute (combined) headways.
My home station is a local station, not the busiest on the line, and less busy than a number of East Side stations. It has over 5 million annual fare registrations.
If Broadway were shut down to general traffic and a steady stream of articulated buses ran in place of the subway, the buses would still be severely overloaded.
(And where are all these buses supposed to come from?)
The nearby IND lines aren't terribly nearby, they run to different places than the IRT, and they only have two usable tracks parallel to the busiest segment of the IRT.
I'd love to have wider trains, but it's simply impractical.
A more practical idea for the future is 15-car IRT trains. Most local stops wouldn't be lengthened. At some stations, the north 10 cars would platform; at others, the south 10 cars would platform. Passengers between two north-end or south-end platforms could ride in the north or south ends of the train; passengers between one north-end platform and one south-end platform would have to ride in the more crowded middle section.
Many other details would have to be worked out as well. I just gave the skeleton.
BTW, the idea's not mine. Credit goes to Bill Vickrey.
We're talking long-term here. There's time for everything to change.
Those shuttle bus operations would just be overloaded and would drag on for YEARS costing the MTA millions in salary, operationg costs, etc. Example on the Lenox line, I remember when the renovations of 1998 were done, the shuttle bus was a BIG operation. Its too much to ask for in terms of converting IRT clearances.
(1)
A new (8) connector to connect the trackage near Simpson St (2)(5) with Elder Avenue (6). There are several ways this could be done. This would give people on the Pelham line access to the west side. This would even allow for a possible (3) connection to the East Bronx(unlikely though). The (8) would run from a separate elevated trackage at 149th Street-Grand Councourse/Mott Avenue connecting to the (2)/(5) shortly after 3rd Avenue when the WPR line becomes elevated. At nights this would also allow the (5) train to connect to the (4) without going into Manhattan
(2)
Another cheaper idea would be a separate station at Southern Blvd (8) and Whitlock Avenue(6)(8)(separate trackage/station with HEETS) could be made as a shuttle(could be S) over the part of Westchester Avenue with no service. This would have one track connecting it with the Pelham line(M track) in order to use the Westchester Yard. There will be new crossovers from Simpson St(2)(5) to Southern Blvd (8)(or S) inside fare control and Whitlock Avenue will have a stairway connecting the (8) above the (6) line
(3)
A 163rd Street Shuttle connecting Intervale Avenue-163rd Street (2)(5) and Hunts Point Avenue(6) stations, with free in system connecting transfers
these ideas would help many people, especially on weekends, when they will have to change from the (6) to the (2) or even (5) in Bronx relieves crowding at 125th Street and allows people to get from the (2) to the (6)
which idea do you like better?
I think #1 seems better since it also gives WPR and Pelham more options
Also the (8) would terminate at E 177th Street(off peak) and run express to from/to Pelham Bay Park during rush hours and Summer Weekends only
First, at rush hour, there are approximatly 10-20 trains using both M track and either side trackage - to attempt Westchester Avenue connector services at anything more than 4 TPH at this point would severely tie up the Pelham line, and that's not mentioning the havoc that will be brought to the 2/5 at Simpson Street. Throw that in, and not only will the 2 be slowed down, but the 5 Thru Express as well. Keep in mind now that this is two already slow Lexington Av trains with heavy ridership through the Central Bronx getting slower.
Second, can the cost of this be justified? The contruction along Westchester Avenue or 163rd street probably will not endear the MTA to many locals, and the disruptions caused by the pushing through of the lines at key points would equally wreak havoc on riders on all the aformentioned lines.
IMV, increased bus service should be adqeuate to get people from the 2/5 to the 6 and vice versa.
three tracks Hunts Point-Sipmson -> (6) to 241 and Dyre
three tracks Simpson-Whitlock -> (2)/(5) to Pelham
between Hunts Point and Whitlock only one track for relays
at Simpson no interlocking - only a bridge
2nd El service on the Westchester Ave portion of the White Plains Road line only went to Freeman St during rush hour service. However, the (empty) train went further north to the Bronx Park stub station to turn back to the 2nd/3rd Ave El structure at 143rd St via the Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure. In 1940, with the demolition of the 2nd Ave El, the 3rd Ave El trains continued that pattern until Nov 5, 1946. The Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure remained unused until 1950/51, when it was demolished, along with the Bronx Park stub stations on both the 3rd Ave El line and the White Plains Road Line. There was also a lay-up yard just below the Bronx Park station at Southern Blvd north of the 177th St Station.
This was an interesting aspect of the consolidation of the IRT Manhattan and Bronx subway and elevated systems. The first portion of that consolidation was the original opening of the Westchester Ave elevated structure of what would become the White Plains Road line to Bronx Park on Southern Blvd. A junction at the 149th St El station was constructed across 149th St to the new Westchester Ave subway el structure. The Harlem River tunnel was not completed yet, when the el connection was made in 1904. The 149th St connecting structure was superceded by The Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure in 1917. At some point in time 3rd Ave El service to Bronx Park on the Westchester Ave line was discontinued and only the 2nd Ave Rush hour service to Freeman St remained.
The second portion of the consolidation of the IRT Manhattan and Bronx subway and elevated systems was the 9th Ave El connection to the Jerome Ave Line at 155th St, which became known as the Polo Grounds Shuttle. One can read the history of this line in the NYC Subway topics.
Timing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Irish spring !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, too bad I didn't have mine. They were moving, though they weren't posed for pictures either!
Some people on the platform were give the train some wierd looks. Like what's the #7 doing down here when it's supposed to be upstairs.
Bill "Newkirk"
What does that mean?
Now, how this relates to the IRT local track south of Brooklyn Bridge I can't address.
Still there is, apparently, a way to construct a turnout that can be taken at full speed. One of these days, try taking an F/V going south from 42nd. The southbound 6 Ave local takes a turnout coming out of 42nd. The straight-through path is actually a crossover to the express track. To remain on the local the train takes that turnout.
Every time I ride through on the F -- either an R46 or R32 consist -- it always takes the turnout at full speed. When the doors are closed, it's full power, hold on to your hats, and don't let go until you're at 34th. If you're standing and aren't grabbing something, you'll get knocked off your feet.
Another one is the southbound #6 local leaving Grand Central. Unless there's congestion ahead, it plows at full speed through the turnout to the connection off the 42nd street shuttle tracks. Again, you better grab something if you're standing, or you'll get knocked off your feet.
Last time I headed out on the PATH to Newark riding in the first car, I watched as the train dipped under the NEC tracks, then barreled through a turnout at something that felt at least 40MPH, swiftly turning to run parallel to the NEC, coming into Harrison.
On two occasions I went to Newark during the midnight hours, when there was some maintenance activity. All PATH trains were wrong-railing into Harrison. They were coming into Newark on what's normally is the departing PATH track at Newark. Just before reaching the NEC the trains were slowing down, but just a little bit, to take a different switch over to a cross-over track. Still, they had to be going at least 30MPH through the turnout.
That is NOT a turnout. It is a grade-separated crossing.
A turnout is a switch.
The "superelevation problem" in the case of Brooklyn Bridge
is that the center express tracks need to be super-elevated
for track speed, about 20-25 MPH, while the local track has
to be designed for a lower speed because trains there are
either going into the layup tracks or City Hall Loop.
Laying out a turnout between two sharply curving tracks, both super-elevated, with differing amounts of super-elevation, has
got to be one of the most difficult turnout design jobs there is.
Think about how you would design that not only in the X and Y
dimensions but also Z!
The answer is in what the acorn said when it grew up.
You can't have switches on superlevated curves because the tracks aren't level at that curve, so a switch can't be installed.
Here is a good photo of a superelevated train curve. That train takes the curve at around 50 mph, without the superelevation, the train would go, say, 20-30 mph.
Surely any train running through that curve has either just left, or is just about to stop, at Lindberg station. Would they really be running at 50mph?.
I live and learn. I'll take more notice next time.
Thanks for the video offer by the way. But the picture is fine as it stands.
BACK ON TRACK AND READY TO ROLL!
THE NEW YORK TRANSIT MUSEUM REOPENS ITS MAIN BROOKLYN FACILITY
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2003 AT 10:00 AM
After extensive renovations to its main facility in Brooklyn Heights
the New York Transit Museum is reopening to the public on Tuesday,
September 16, 2003, at 10:00 AM.
The Museum is also hosting a free community open house for the general
public on Saturday, September 13 and Sunday, September 14, 2003 from
10:00 AM to 6:00 PM.
The New York Transit Museum, one of the city's leading cultural
institutions is the largest museum in the United States devoted to
urban public transportation history, and one of the premier
institutions of its kind in the world. The Museum explores the
development of the greater New York metropolitan region through the
presentation of exhibitions, tours, educational programs and workshops
dealing with the cultural, social and technological history of public
transportation. Since its inception as a temporary exhibit in 1976,
the Museum has grown in scope and popularity. Two years ago, on
September 1, 2001, the Museum closed for extensive renovations to its
main facility, a historic 1936 IND subway station.
The New York Transit Museum's infrastructure has been upgraded to
include enhanced climate control systems, improved fire protection,
safety, and electrical systems, and new lighting. The refurbished
galleries feature completely reinstalled popular exhibits such as
Steel, Stone and Backbone, which recounts the tale of building New
York City's nearly 100 year-old subway system, and many new highly
interactive exhibitions such as On the Streets, an in-depth look at
New York City's trolleys and buses. New features of interest include
user-friendly education workshops and a new computer resource
center. With these and many other additions, a fresh and enriching
educational experience of the history of New York's regional
transportation network awaits all visitors.
An orientation gallery that introduces visitors to the Museum, its
mission, and its unique setting will greet new and returning
visitors. This orientation is expanded through an exhibition of
artifacts and new acquisitions which provide an historical overview of
the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) and its operating
agencies: New York City Transit; Long Island Rail Road; Long Island
Bus; Metro-North Railroad; MTA Bridges and Tunnels, and predecessor
companies.
Highlights of the Reopening
On the Streets: New York's Trolleys and Buses, a new gallery dedicated
to surface transportation presents, in nine complementing segments, a
history of above ground mobility for the last 175 years - from the
early 1800s through the 21st Century. The central element of this new
exhibition is a simulated traffic intersection complete with traffic
lights and coordinated walk-don't-walk signs, parking meters, fire
hydrants, and an array of other street "furniture." Children of all
ages will delight in a new, wheelchair accessible, twelve-seat bus;
refurbished 1960s bus cab, and child-sized trolley. Audio interviews
with New York City Transit's Department of Buses personnel and a
commissioned photo essay, A Day in the Life of a Bus complete the
streetscape. Exhibition sidebars credit two men who were instrumental
in the electrification of streetcars and railcars. Frank Julian
Sprague (1857 - 1934), of European descent, often called "the father
of electric railway traction" was responsible for the first
large-scale successful use of electricity to run an entire system of
streetcars in Richmond, Virginia, in 1887 - 1888; and Granville
T. Woods (1856 - 1910), an African-American inventor who patented more
than 60 devices over 30 years that sped development of telegraphs,
telephones and electric trains. One of Woods' most significant
inventions, a third-rail system for conducting electric power to
railway cars - successfully demonstrated in 1892 in Coney Island -
made the subway a reality in New York City. The exhibition also tells
the story of Elizabeth Jennings Graham (1830 - 1901), an
African-American schoolteacher who won a landmark legal decision that
defined the rights of people of color to ride any public conveyance on
the city's street. Ms. Graham's victory occurred 100 years before
Rosa Parks won a U.S Supreme Court case in the 1950s, that gave
African-Americans the right to sit anywhere in a public bus.
Clearing the Air, a highly interactive segment of On The Streets
allows visitors to learn about the evolution of fuel technologies and
evaluate their environmental impact. At a series of interactive stops
within the exhibition, visitors are encouraged to compare old and new
technologies and explore the origin of various fuels used over time,
as well as understand steps Transit's Department of Buses is taking to
reduce harmful emissions.
On the Streets visitors will also enjoy the new Dr. George
T.F. Rahilly Trolley and Bus Study Center. The Center features over 50
detailed models of trolleys and work cars created by Dr. Rahilly, a
trolley enthusiast whose painstaking depiction of every trolley that
ever ran in Brooklyn, is a highlight of the Museum's collections.
A new exhibition on the platform level, Moving the Millions: New York
City's Subways from its Origins to the Present provides visitors with
an overview of the magnitude and complexity of New York City's rapid
transit system. The exhibition uses historical photographs, diagrams,
cartoons, period maps, and newspaper clippings to illustrate major
issues and events that influenced the development of the largest
transportation network in North America. While touring Moving the
Millions museum visitors may board the Museum's vintage collection of
subway and elevated trains and visit a working signal tower. New York
City Transit's Division of Car Equipment has lovingly refurbished the
Museum's unparalleled collection of vintage subway and elevated
cars. Visitors will be pleased to see their old favorites in mint
condition.
A new exhibit on fare collection is illustrated by representative
examples of various collection devices used throughout the subway
system's history. Visitors may interact with these devices for a
uniquely tactile retrospective experience. The exhibit features the
first paper ticket-choppers used in 1904, later turnstile designs that
accepted coins and tokens, the MetroCard turnstile currently in
operation, and a graphic timeline underscoring milestones in fare
collection as well as the fifty-year history of the token. Images from
the Museum's archives not previously displayed show these reliable
vintage turnstiles in use in their respective eras.
Elevated City: A History of the Els in New York debuted at the
Museum's Grand Central Terminal Gallery Annex in June 2002. This very
popular photo-exhibition has been adapted and reinstalled in the
Museum's mezzanine level. This important exhibition takes a
retrospective look at New York City's first mass transportation rail
lines, from their birth to their demise. Elevated rail lines of the
1800s enabled people to travel beyond their immediate neighborhoods.
With a newfound freedom to travel and escape the surly bounds of lower
Manhattan, this 'commuter class' of city residents helped established
new communities outside of Manhattan throughout the spacious outer
boroughs.
Steel, Stone & Backbone: Building New York's Subways 1900 - 1925, the
Museum's ever popular exhibition that presents a look at the building
of New York City's first subway line, various tunneling methods, and
the people who built it, has been completely refurbished. The
exhibition features pictures taken over 100 years ago during
construction, along with historical artifacts and period videos. The
faces of the workers and images of the birth of the subway evoke a
sense of awe and appreciation for the dedication, tenacity and
sacrifice of the men who built the subway.
For the newly created art gallery on the mezzanine, the Museum is
featuring New York's Forgotten Substations: The Power Behind the
Subway, an exhibition of photographs by photographer and author
Christopher Payne. These turn-of-the-century power substations once
housed huge mechanical rotary generators that converted standard
alternating current (AC) power to the direct current, or DC power,
needed to drive New York City's subway system.
The Museum's new Sanford Gaster Education Center boasts a welcoming
area for conducting workshops and hands-on activities for youngsters
and a new computer resource center. The resource center will increase
the opportunities for research and learning about public
transportation currently available to our young adult audience. It
will feature online access to the Museum's collections and allow for
remote exploration of other transportation related resources. The
center extends and greatly enhances the Museum's educational outreach
efforts from a local to a national and global audience. On June 1,
2003, the Museum launched a new online education site: New York
Transit Museum >> Connected. For a preview of our offerings please log
on to www.transitmuseumeducation.org
Cinema Subway an exhibition of movie stills, lobby cards and posters
issued to advertise films made in New York City depicting the subway
system since the 1920s, is the featured presentation in the Museum's
RR Gallery. The gallery will also host transportation-themed lectures
and film and video programs.
Where did you get it from?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Simon
Swindon UK
BTW - the GCT Store is not temporary. It was opened years ago as an "annex" to the Museum. Even when the Museum reopens there will still be a changing exhibit at the store at GCT.
AND I hope they have NOT installed flourescent lights at platform level, that would be a sacrilege.
wayne
Hey, I was on the #7 today after 1 PM. I deliberatly rode an R-33 single. I wanted to have an axiflow moment ! It was a hoot watching people getting on this hot car, fans roaring and exiting to the A/C cars via the end storm doors !
I was at 74th St. to observe the progress with the new transportation building going up. I was there about 20 minutes watching R-62A's and redbirds go by. I was amazed at the R-62A consists that had one or two freshly washed cars mixed in with the great unwashed !
I observed a few remaining redbirds, counting the rotted out carbody holes but needed a calculator. When the last Redbirds are sunk, Bondo will probably lay off some employees, heh.
Bill "Newkirk"
Doubt it. There's always the R-40s :)
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
SILVER STREAK ON THE FLUSHING LINE!!!!!!!!!
(What was I doing at the railfan window of an R-62A anyway when there were all those Redbirds floating around?)
1) From Feb 2000, Phil Hom image of R-42, R-1 and R-30 on the Brighton Line. Three way meet of a mixed bag of subway cars !
2) From Sept 1999, Douglas Grotjahn image of R-6's on the Rockaway Line near the flats coming off the bridge approach. A must for arnine and Rockaway Line fans !
3) From May 1999, Douglas Grotjahn image of aqua blue/white World.s Fair R-36's at Willets Point station with Shea Stadium in the background. If you like Flushing cars in vintage paint, this one's for you.
4) From April 1996, Don Harold image of clean R-32's outside Coney Island shops in original colors. Don't miss this one !
Thanks !
Bill "Newkirk"
Anybody need their's autographed?
I don't autograph calendars, postcards or Metrocards, only tokens ! Heh !!
I'll mail you your sample with your slide to save you the carfare to buy one at the Transit Museum !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like some neat new postcards for sure! Your post got me thinking about the 2004 Subway Calendar; will you be dropping it off to the Transit Museum gift store in GCT and The Red Caboose next month? I'm curious to see it as always, but especially with a milestone taking place on on 10/27/04. :-) -Nick
THURSDAYS ARE PATHursdays! PATHursday is your opportunity to meet with management staff to give your comments and suggestions. PATHursday representatives come from every management area of PATH and have expertise in their individual discipline, as well as a broad general knowledge of PATH operations. Many of the improvements PATH makes come as a direct result of suggestions made by our passengers. We welcome your comments.
PATHursdays are held Thursday mornings from 7:00 to 9:30 at the following stations:
PATHursday will be held every Thursday at 33rd Street Station
And the 2nd Thursday of the month at Journal Square Station.
If you cannot attend the PATHursday sessions, you may call 1-800-234-PATH (7284) or click on FEEDBACK at the top of this page to leave your comments.
The location: World Trade Center PATH station.
The date: September 13, 2001.
I had obtained one the Saturday before (9/8) at the Try Transit Festival in Hoboken.
You sure? I don't think you were down in that station on 9/13/01. Actually, I'm not sure what you mean. You got the holder at Hoboken, so why are you talking about a PATHursday event on 9/13/01?
From 9/8/01 to 7/1/03, I was not in lower Manhattan, though I rode the subways through there several times. However, streetside, Not between those two dates.
Today I took a trip up to the Shoreline Trolley Muesum in E.Haven,CT. I had a great time and had 2 great tour guides. If you are interested I took a bunch of photographs you can see them at:
http://www.ne-transit.us/shoreline/index.htm
Have a nice evening and enjoy the railfan trip on sunday.
Best Wishes,
Flushing7
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
til next time
Translation: I wouldn't be happy with them too. I'd maybe get rid of them.
LOL, Im just kidding around.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Trash.
Pros-
Reach speed quite fast
A change from the redbirds
Bright lighting
They are becoming quite reliable
Loud annoucements
Cons-
Early problems
Seats are not the best to sit on
Sometimes wrong transfers annouced
Strip maps should have been some type of board in itself, so that when trains are switched from line to line, all you have to do is hit a button an the stripmap is updated for the line. Kind of like it should be hooked up to the LEDs in the front of the train.
R142 is plain in the inside. R142A a little better.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I recall that N_Slant_40 said that he saw R160's with stainless steel fronts.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If I listened to "other subtalkers", I'd believe that:
There are R-110B's running RIGHT NOW.
R-160's are on the property for testing.
R-32's have a rollsign that reads: (T) 2av/West End
Hillside has 2 or 3 unused stations after 179th st.
76th street is an actual station.
I don't know about the R110Bs, Im waiting for Trevor
I doubt the R160s are here.
And Im a little shaky on the 76th Street Station
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
There are no R160's
76th Street does not exist (open for debate, but let's not get into that).
The Thingie at Alabama Ave is not a secret launch pad between 76th Street and the Dyre Ave express tracks.
And I hear that trainset's running on the M this weekend. I wonder how it's going to get there. It can't use the Alabama launchpad due to the GO on the J. Maybe it'll ride up the escalator at Broadway Junction.
WHAT?! Now you tell me. I sat there all day yesturday with my camera trying to catch one of them flying R160s.
All it needs is the flux-capacitor, and it must hit 88mph.
til next time
til next time
til next time
There ya go!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I'd also like to know where this platform is overlooking Manhattn like that.
Seriously though, I wish they'd designed something different, the R143 look taking over the entire system doesn't do it for me. I like the diversity the system has now and I hate to think that in a few years everything will look the same.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
My favorite is the blue. I haven't seen any CAFs run on Orange though they do run there, reports are that the color on the LEDs is the same as what is used on Yellow. No cars run on Red but I am willing to bet it will be brilliant, just like the blue ones.
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
2:There is a sign that says "T 2Av local/West End" Trevor said so himself and with him being able to change the rollsign's anytime he pleases,I believe em.Still a disbeliever?Ride on R32 car #3711 which is from Jamaica.That car has the rollsign's that are still able to be turned by hand.At least the train line roll's only.That's how I found out that the "H Rockaway Pk shuttle" sign is still there.
NO such sign exists. TOTAL BS.
BTW anyone who changes signs is NOT serving the interests of regular passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Furthermore, who says 76 St was never built? It is likely that the station shell at least was built, but filled in.
OK, where the hell did the 4th one come from? I never heard anyone say that.
David
And Alstom has artist's renderings on its website, which I posted a URL for earlier today.
David
Aw man, that's awful. Hopefully the builders think the general public is really dumb, that way they will have a lot of leeway to make changes to the R-143's design.
til next time
:-) Andrew
If new cars can only go where the cars they're replacing ran when the order was placed, we'd see R-142's on the 7 and on only a small part of the 4 and 6 fleets.
Here's my "logical" post-2004 car assignments:
R68: B/D
R68A: Q, extras to N
R40 (both): N, W
This setup keeps every car class assigned to it's current maintenance facility.
til next time
Any facility getting them will need major work to accomodate them. ENY will need none. I bet the MTA is itching to OPTO the J line at night and on weekends. If they go to 207th, you'll see them on the A line with the R44's. If that goes as planned, the option order should go to Coney Island.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If he asked, I would tell him why.
I don't have a specific itinerary or schedule yet. Email me if you're interested in joining and include whatever ideas you have.
The three biggies seem to be the L cutback, the M extension, and the J shuttle bus, as well as the disruptions at Queens Plaza and 57/7. The Eastern Division rules the day!
Just saw this on channel 4 now, they shows a graphic, that looked like an R/46ish type train, with a large pink "F" on the LEFT side over where the T/O would sit!
Anyone else see this?
/back to sarcasm mode now:
You don't think the C/R and T/O of that (F) train had families? Wives? Husbands? Kids? How are they going to provide for their families now? This should have been covered up. And the people leaning against the doors and not holding on to something else will have learned a valuable lesson.
By finding a job where thier low function brain does not put the riding public in danger. If the report is true. What was the C/R smoking
I
Agree
With
This
Post.
(I swiped it from a 'Rasslin Newsgroup...)
HURRAH to Choo Choo for ACTUALLY using it!!
You don't know how right you really are...
In any language, you said a mouthful, brah!!
Brrrrravo!
Opening train doors between stations is too serious an incident to be covered up. We're not talking about some technical rule violation, after all, but rather a mistake that could result in serious injury or even death.
Whether the responsible employees should be fired for this incident is another matter. A lesser disciplinary measure might be appropriate, depending on circumstances, but in any event that's not the concern of anyone who reports the incident.
There's no excuse to not fire someone who put people's lives at risk. Even worse is that this mistake could have been easily prevented by just LOOKING OUT THE DAMN WINDOW.
Doesn't seem like something that can occur by accidentally bumping into something, or slipping on the floor, or whatever. The conductor wasn't paying attention. Whether it's because he was high on crack, or lazy, is a secondary matter that would only decide whether the conductor would or would not face criminal prosecution.
I remember reading that the slants have them but if they do they have a different symbol to denote it (R42s/the R40M have the red diamond under number plate).
And if even one car on the train doesn't have the enablers, enablers are disabled so doors work normally.
The proper lesson is that one does not do things which endangers lives.
A train engineer can lose his certification over just one incident of ignoring a red signal. Should that be covered up out of pity for him? I think not.
A pilot who "buzzes" the control tower for fun just once will lose his FAA certificate and will never fly again - never. How should he/she provide for his family?
Some "mistakes" are too serious to forgive because only dumb luck prevents people from dying when they happen.
Some "mistakes" are too serious to forgive because only dumb luck prevents people from dying when they happen..."
Heh. You just reminded me of what I observed a couple of weeks ago. It was near Republic Airfield on Rt. 110 in Farmingdale. It seems there's a "rush hour" for planes to land at that field. Between around 5 and 6 p.m. you can see dozens of planes, mainly prop planes landing there. Taking advantage, I suppose, of having the sun getting lower in the west and the approach is from the west. Well, I was just walking down the road there (If I've driven to work I always take an hour or so to take a nightly constitutional, usually up 110 to see all the busy transport modes in play there, to wit: 2 MTA bus lines, 1 Suffolk Transit bus, the LIRR Main Line trestle over 110, and, the airfield activity), and I noticed a prop plane making its approach like normal. It had just touched down on the runway when I heard the louder sound of a jet engined plane getting closer. I had noticed a plane making a counter clockwise sping over the airport, seemingly out of the standard landing patterns. It made a fairly short aerial u-turn up there. When I heard it, I looked west and ZOOOOMMM!! here comes this executive jet zipping onto the landing field! I looked east and yep, there goes that lil' propeller job hopping back up into the air at what looked like the very end of the landing strip. I can imagine the radio com from the tower: "...coming in good, cut engines...HOLY SHIT!!! LAUNCH!! LAUNCH!! GET YA ASS BACK IN THE SKY BOY!! NOW!!!"
Or something like that, I imagine. Wonder what the deal was here. The jet maybe running out of fuel? Or a medical emergency? It sure was something to see.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why's that?
-Stef
Can you name an incident of a regular poster on Subtalk seeing something it, reporting it, and getting someone fired. Granted, I only read selected threads, but I never heard of such a thing, and I've been posting on the board a long time.
Gah fobbid a CHILD ran over to look out the opened door.
1)Report to Dyre Avenue and find out what is going on with this so called "R160".
2)Report to the C Line and find out about this so called "R110B" be back in service.
You have Until Sunday 12:00 Midnight to complete the mission or else......
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It is now 23:29
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
My mission would be to find these 110Bs (I'd start looking in 207th Street at around 10:30 AM), the T 2nd Avenue/West End sign (the T you find will be so boring you will just scroll the sign to P), and the train of redbirds with 2 R26s, 2 R28s, 2 R29s, 2 R33 MLs, and 2 R36 WFs (probably doesn't even exist, the cars on this train are scattered all over the city and some are in the ocean). Then we can accept Acela's mission.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The BMT/IND sized R-160's will be laid up next to the New York Westchester & Boston MU cars. They used to run there up until 12/31/37.
2)Report to the C Line and find out about this so called "R110B" be back in service.
And bring a sleeping bag and some food. This may be a long haul !
"You have Until Sunday 12:00 Midnight to complete the mission or else"
Or else we'll send Sea Beach Ferd to your house and he'll bore you for hours telling you of his first ride on the Sea Beach as a kid, Ebbets Field, The Mets and politics. Word to the wise, find the R-160's and R-110B's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
You'll give us more time? You'll turn into a pumpkin?
Your MetroCard will expire?
Taken on Wednesday, July 16th at Franconia-Springfield
What about a second transfer?
What if (e.g.) I'm going from Penn Station to Astor Place, and my planned route is A/C/E to L to 6? Unless GO transfers are being distributed and collected at the three L transfer points, that costs two fares.
I'm asking if GO transfers will be distributed and collected at the three L transfer points.
Assuming you already know about this G.O., and you're outside fare control areas at Penn, there are 3 options:
1. A/C/E or 1/2/3 uptown to the 7/S then go downtown on the Lex.
2. A/C or 2/3 downtown to Broadway-Nassau/Fulton then 4/5 uptown to BB for the 6.
3. A/C/E downtown to West 4, F/S to B'way-nassau, Downtown 6 to Canal or BB, then head uptown.
It's a bit of a detour, but at least you pay one fare.
[I'm asking if GO transfers will be distributed and collected at the three L transfer points.]
I'm not sure, probably, then probably not.
The service advisories instruct passengers to use the M14 as a substitute for the L. That means that the fare charged on the M14 should mirror the fare charged on the L.
How about A/C/E or 1/2/3 to Times Sq., then downtown B'way local to 8th St.?
Or, just walk over to Herald Square and board the B'way local directly? (Especially if you're closer to 7th than 8th.)
The failure to provide connections between the IND and B'way BMT in lower Manhattan looms large in these instances...
If that's your planned route, you're not using your subway smarts. Go to 34th/Herald Square Station on the Broadway Line and take a downtown local to 8th Street. It's a little walking and only one train.
Maybe I'm coming from 23rd.
Maybe I'm just lazy.
Whatever the reason, the subway map shows a valid route, but if I try to follow the posted service advisories, I pay two fares (unless transfers are being issued and collected).
He personally told me that he heard there was an ex-NYW&B MU car in Clearfield, Utah. I would assume that these would be one of the cars that went west after the NYW&B quit in 1937 and were used at the shipyard railway in California. They did not run as electrics out there.
Has anyone heard any rail folklore about this ? I haven't seen or spoken to Bruce since then, but I know he's on the level and not a kooky railfan. Any thoughts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmm, maybe Arrow Dynamics was trying to figure out how to make it into a roller coaster car!!!
I was wondering about that myself too. How can subway fleet like R42, 40M, 40S R32, 38 are soon to be retired sooner, I just don't understand how. Ok, they been here for 15 years. So!! they're running better than before. Even some TA workers agree with me that these fleet can survived for another 10 years of service. I think R44 and 46 should be first retired instead.
Are those employees Car Maintainers or Car Equipment engineers? If not -- if they haven't been under the cars or behind the panels -- their opinions mean nothing.
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I read this on the board some months ago.
David
Try this:
http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549&lid=en&rid=996826515305&pid=996826515979
David
David
The TA benefits in that two manufacturers can deliver the same car.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The pics are updated on my site www.johnvillanueva.com
R-62a and Redbird sections.
About 10 pictures.
What station was this? Looks IND to me, but can't tell.
If so, I like it. The job done so far looks really nice. Hope the contractors can keep up the good work.
Were you there when the train got stalled at Roosevelt Ave? Did you see R-32 #3523 on the E? (I was on it.) It was sitting for a while. In fact, the F was running express on the local track.
No, I didn't see a stalled (E). I got on an E at Quees Plaza at 8pm. We only hit a max speed of 39mph between there and 34 St-Penn Station.
Did you go the LIRR platform at Hunters Point Avenue? That is a good place to take photos at #7 train, LIRR, and Amtrak. This is the photo I took on July 1.
I recommend you to go there to take photos.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
I would LOVE to go down there for photos, but every time I pass by on a (7) train, I see a policeman parked in his car down there. Was there a cop there when you were there. I assume he would chase me away if he saw me taking photos, not that they are illegal or anything.
I think police come there during PM rush. However, the best lighting is between noon and 2PM. That will be great for taking photos.
Chaohwa
Hunterspoint Ave Station
Near-by LIC Yard
Self Explanitory (sorry, my scanner was not cooperating with the red colors)
I put three photos taken at Hunters Point Avenue here.
Chaohwa
Those were the days when you could just take photos at your leisure, without people thinking you were a "terrorist".
Peace,
ANDEE
What is the R-11OB? Never heard of an R-11OB. Maybe an R-110B, but not R-11OB
Peace,
ANDEE
It's obvious that you can't tell a joke when you see one. I asked a silly question as a joke, and Continued the joke. Did I not supply my own ridiculous answer.
It's nice to someone has taken it upon themself to be the board's monitor of stupidity. Lighten up a bit.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Also worth checking out: http://cfpra.org/
Mark
This is one of the reasons WMATA never intended to give or build the existing toilet felicities to allow for public use.
John
Thje best thing is this, make sure you go BEFORE you get on the Metro, and also don`t go out when you're not feeling good, particularly if your stomach is iffy. And watching what you eat is a good suggestion. Some food and drink will trigger trips to the john at the worst possible time (like when you are on a crowded train that's delayed).
You mean it WON'T stop to let an employee off??
Nor a geese employing a video camera??
We're not in Katamachi anymore, brah... :(
Sure it will. Just key open a crew door and watch your step.
--Mark
Great job NotchIt, this is really funny.
A Redbirds Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea
Love that photo!!!
Can you imagine the bugs splattered on that windshield ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Also when SubTalkers say they saw something, everybody wants to nag them saying that it was impossible, personally I don't think it's that serious, because I notice a few things got out of hand about nothing.
"Are you guys going to tell me that I lied about seeing the R142 in Unionport yard that has a front LED sign saying the number 3?"
It's Possible, because the other dat a R142 was placed in service on the 3 Line.
"Will you guys call me a liar about seeing all those Bombardier cars on the 6?"
There are photos on this website that prove that Bombardier Cars have been on the 6 Line, so don't stress your self on that.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
:)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And its not like Trevor doesn't have a record of this. Do you think Trevor was telling the truth about R-110B's on the Eastern Division?
From the write-up, some of us have assumed you guys SAW R-110B in passenger
service ON THE DAY OF YOUR GETOGETHER.
Trevor has SLIDES...... which could have been taken any day in the last decade.
Yay!! That clears up alot, brah....
.......here we all (I atleast) took the write-up
to mean you TOOK PICTURES of the r-110B THIS WEEK.. THIS WEEK.
Yao.
Slides = A Past Photo.
Thanks for clarity.
Crap? No one ever did anything to him, all we did was questioned the credibility of his so-called sightings of R110B's, which of course, turned out to be false thanks to Mark W's clear-ups.
Whew...
:0)
This is the dumbest on-topic thread I've ever participated in here on Subtalk. Where's heypaul when you need him?
Agreed. This thread is a prime candidate for arriving on Subtalk dead.
Now I'm not going to take sides here [FOR OBVIOUS REASONS] but the damn train has been under tarp for quite some time to my knowledge and Mark W said it has rusty wheels but Trevor has slides stating it has ran recently. I'll keep my opinion to myself on this matter.
Nope, heypaul is riding those wooden escalators in Macy's 34th St. Sometimes when I'm in the area and need to use their clean restroom I'll make it a point to ride those old woodies. Those are the BU's of the escalator world.
Bill "Newkirk"
They are very real and are running as we speak. They aren't quiet like the modern stainless steel ones we ride. They have an unusual "wooden" sound all there own.
Before you were born there were wooden escaltors on our subways ! I do remember the woodies at 34th St & 6th Ave and also Court St. on the BMT Montague St.tunnel line.
Since Macy's occupies the 34th St block from 7th to 6th Ave's, those woodies are located somewhere in a center of the block entrance. They're behind an elevator bank and you can ride up the 9th floor. I think there are a couple of other woodies near the 6th Ave entrance. Macy's is huge.
Bill "Newkirk"
And in the main Broadway building, there are at least one or two banks of wooden escalators. They may not start at the ground floor, as they have modernized some of the lower floors,but the woodies go up to the 8th or 9th floor.
As Bill said, they have quite a unique sound as well as being original equipment from the store's opening 100+ years ago. They are probably one of the oldest pieces of mass transportation equipment in the city. I'm not sure if there are any buildings that have elevators with the original cars around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the Broadway building, on the 4th, 5th or 6th floor, the escalators spread out into a sort of 4 track line that all empty or load from the same place. I may not be describing it well, but it has a very grand classical look about it.
One of the reasons the wooden escalators are still functioning is that it would be very expensive to replace them.
I think Macys wooden escalators were one of the earliest Otis escalator installations.
If they ever replaced them, I wonder what they would go for on Ebay?
of course, if Macy's did decide to replace them, the job wouldn't take 2+ years as with Borough Hall.
I have good news:
The Court Street BMT escalators are open! (I don't know when they were opened, but they were still behind plywood a week ago.)
I also have bad news:
Only the down escalator was running.
Borough Hall's still not done, but that's not a big deal as long as the parallel elevator's working (nor is it an exceptionally long climb).
That's dumb, common sense says if one escalator is working it should be going up and not down.
Bill "Newkirk"
In other words, you're right, but this is the subway.
Fortunately, I was going down.
On a semi-related topic, has anyone been the former "John Wanamaker" building in Philadelphia? I remember, like back in the early 1980's, going up the escalators to the top floor, and that was an experience in itself, but then on the roof of the top floor there was some sort of amusement ride like a monorail. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
The top floor of Wanamakers was the executive offices, I think the selling floors stopped at the 9th floor, where the credit office (where you paid your charge card bills) were. Tenth thru twelfth floors had the exec offices.
I rode it when I was a kid in the (late) '40's. Yes, it was a space ship, but to me it was a train. Every Christmas our parents took my (older) brother and me to 8th & Market on the Bridge Train (the genesis of my subway fanhood) to go to the department stores to "see Santa Claus". It was actually to see the toy train layouts in all the department stores. Wanamakers was always the best, with Strawbridge's second, until Lits decided to build a "Christmas village". Gimbels was OK and Snellenbergs was an also-ran.
I remember the wooden escalators in Abraham and Stauss (A&S) in Brooklyn. They also had operator driven elevators and express elevators that stopped at two floors only.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is also a set going from the main floor down to the Cellar.
www.macys, er, um, www.forgotten-ny.com
Or you can figure out a way to sneak in 207th St. and observe the rust on the wheels and rails. Sure beats waiting for a train that doesn't run !
Bill "Newkirk"
Other ones I'd wish they do include Jamaica and the Concourse ones. They're hardly talked about.
At one point I killfiled the California guy, Salaam, but at this point I'd rather duplicate his posts. At any rate he actually has created new words :-)
And the proff is here,
Arti
It's really gotten to a point to where theres nothing to prove.
Yes, the fact that the R110B's have not run in 2 years.
When Trevor does come through with the pictures half the people on this board will still be hells bent on calling him a liar.
And yet he has decided to leave this board forever. So much for that promise.
Frankly they can all think what they want, I don't care. I saw the slides Trevor has, Ozzy saw the slides Trevor has, Adam saw the slides Trevor has, D train saw the slides Trevor has, Lincon saw the slides Trevor has and David saw the slides Trevor has. I don't need the people of this message board to tell me what I saw, and to tell me that Trevor is playing a joke, because I know he's telling the truth and that's all that matter.
So what if all of you saw them? We can only base on what we know and we haven't seen his slides. To be honest though, what he saw isn't what we think it is since Mark W's comments.
Everytime some small thing comes onto Subtalk it gets blown out of proportion. Are you guys going to tell me that I lied about seeing the R142 in Unionport yard that has a front LED sign saying the number 3? Will you guys call me a liar about seeing all those Bombardier cars on the 6?
Not everything. Most of those 'small' things usually stay within boundaries and are kept under control. It's when someone posts something questionable like your R110 B thread like this happens. No slides for us to see, we'll question it, all right.
Because if so I would like the stuff all of you guys been smoking. That's all I have to say, have a nice day !
Given this whole thread, no one is smoking anything. It's a matter of a lack of common sense. Enjoy your day.
There is a boarded up station entrance on Smith Street in Brooklyn, just south of fulton Street and I'm trying to understand what it is.
Not connected with the old Court Street Station that is now the transit museum, but seems too far from Jay Street to be connected with that.
I know someone knows this please explain.
Thanks
Culverexpress.
That would be nice for me.
fulton Street could use a subway entrance.
Don't be so lazy, the entrance to the Jay St station is only a block away.
The long-closed entrance to the B/C at 70th Street was reopened a few months ago. I don't know if there's a booth (not that most users of the entrance care -- they're just happy it exists).
The difference is 400ft and 2 very busy intersections to cross.
Just though it would be a little more convenient.
Sorry for making a suggestion.
Many other entrances are separated by that distance or even more so. It's really more of the MTA saving money ultimately.
It also makes an even better arguemnt for re-opening it
as one trying to get to fulton mall from Boro Hall must not only walk the distance but cross the many lanes of traffic and service streets leading to the brooklyn bridge approach.
Curious if there isn't a racial motivation in separating boro hall from the Fulton area?
You never know.
1) OBVIOUSLY the TA didn't sanction this!
2) Next time HBO does something like this, how many SubTalkers will railfan that train? :)
3) Does anyone know if TA management went ballistic over this?
4) If kittens can get you busted on a train, why not strippin' cats? (The photo shoot went on for a while. Apparently nobody complained.)
All in all, I think ot was fascinating and instructive...some things are easier to get away with than others...hee hee hee...
Nobody's answered my question (perhaps because nobody knows the answer): Will the R-143's that usually run on the M on weekends be running this weekend, or will the M be using its regular weekday fleet?
You din't answer my question regarding the error in the PDF for the J shuttle bus from Broadway Junction to Crescent st this weekend, where is it?
The flyer does refer repeatedly to a station called Eastern Parkway. The only station I know of by that name is on the 2/3.
The Q24 runs along Atlantic Ave
I just love that bus route! Surely one of the more unusual routings, and you get to see the original Montauk Branch of the LIRR, plus the lovely industrial districts in the area. A no nonsense route.
Apparently the Service Advisory writer is unaware of the name change performed in 12/2001.
Sonic Music Festival at Coney Island's Steeplechase Park
Tommorrow: 9 AM to 6 PM
Directions: V to Sheepshead Bay then Beach bus
Whoops, NYCT caught this mistake and corrected it to the Q line on a yellow paper. But it is still up at both sides of Penn Statrion, 161st st/River Ave and most stations on the White Plains Road line in the Bronx.
Oh my goodness, now THAT is purely embarrassing! And we thought the mix ups with the R and other advisories were bad.
They made a mistake with that too, it's the SIREN Music festival.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The weekend M is normally assigned, what, four 4-car R-143 sets? Then there certainly won't be more than two 8-car R-143 M trains running this weekend.
My strong hunch is that there won't be any, but I wouldn't mind getting pictures of R-143's on the bridge or in Manhattan.
Your Sunday trip is looking more and more inviting!
At least some of the M has to run R42's as there is no way they could cover Fulton to Metro service with the R143's they usually send to the M on weekends. Hopefully it will be a mix, and not just R42's.
Sure, it could happen, and that's why I asked. But why should it happen?
I thought the M line had 8 car R143 boards, but I can't remember how far down the line they go.
If I'm imagining things, and they don't, they're unlikely to do so as the only time R143s are used there is for OPTO service.
Also, do the R143s have a route programmed for anything other than Metro-Myrtle?
Are many B-division crews not qualified to run the new equipment?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
3 Train - R62A #1919
C Train - R32 #3891
F Train - R46 #6021 (Supposed to be the A Train)
Diversion is most logical answer because R46s don't even run on the A and the F Line Logo was on all the Cars.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Note that trains on the 8th Av, Broadway and 6th Av lines can be rerouted as needed to go around obstructions, fires, police activity, etc. This is one of the major strengths of NYC's subway system.
The F could run the entire Brooklyn and Queens route to Rockaway if desired, running the same route that the JFK Express did.
"We can only travel 25 on city roads. How can they travel 45?" he said. "That's going to be a bigger accident waiting to happen."
That's one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Read the full story here.
They need to bring Operation Lifesaver to this burg and show what a car looks like after it has been hit.
How much time will we have in PJ, any ideas of what we can do while there?
;-)
Flushing7
Jimmy
Yep, and it's gonna cross via the new Tappan Zee road/rail bridge, then head downtown via the newly-reopened Putnam Branch. :+}
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/schedules_subway.asp
I recommend you create lists instead.
No, you did that years ago :-)
Took me a moment to figure out what was being said at first since I hadn't followed his original link.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because you would have about 3 people per car. Philly isn't as big a draw as NYC is. Furthermore, the NEC/R7 route is not a big a commuter base as the NEC in New Jersey. The R7 runs mostly through a bunch of gritty industrial areas and for more than half of its rpute never leaves the city limits. The R5 to Paoli (and Doylestown) is the primate commuter route into the city, and it is on it that you see relitivly long trains at freqnely headways.
The R8 to Chestnut Hill West often runs 3 car trains and offers 30 minute headways, among the best in the system.
Besides, SEPTA has 7 Regional Rail Lines, two branches each. Given the frequencies on a few of them (Most notably, the R8 Chestnut Hill West, R1 Airport, and R5 Malvern/Thorndale), it's not that easy to free up cars to tack on to another train line.
NJT, however, has a rather infrequent service on quite a few lines (Raritan Valley, Boonton, Port Jervis, Atlantic City, etc), with only the Norh Jersey Coast Line, Morristown Line, Gladstone Branch, and Northeast Corridor Line having anything close to "high frequency" It's easier to run longer tains on a line when the other rail lines your system has don't need the extra cars that often... That, and let us not forget, NJT has a lot more push-pull equipment than SEPTA, which frees up the MUs. SEPTA has, I believe, eight Bombardier push-pull consists, which are restricted to the R7 Trenton and R5 Thorndale lines (And are serviced in Frazer or Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop, and are stored in Roberts Avenue Yard during midday hours, and in Frazer or Trenton overnight and on weekends). That lacking number of push-pull trains doesn't allow SEPTA to free up too many MUs, however, SEPTA only has the running space to use the Bombardier consists on a few lines (R5 Thorndale, R7 Trenton, R5 Doylestown, R2 Wilmington/Newark, R3 West Trenton, and MAYBE the R6 Norristown and R3 Media/Elwyn)
And that's exactly why I avoid working that line like the plague! It's like the "Brighton Line" of New Jersey. It might be interesting if you're a buff, but as an employee, it's the height of chaos. Passengers hiding in the abundant bathrooms (on the MU's they're in every odd number car) to avoid paying the fare, passengers roaming from car to car to avoid paying the fare, and passengers who steal seat checks to avoid paying the fare. Since there are no turnstiles to jump at the Northeast Corridor stations, the "fine folks" who ride that line have no other options!
Hamilton and Newark stations have MUCH longer platforms than most of SEPTA's Regional Rail stations, or even than platforms on several other NJT lines. The platforms on the AC line and on SEPTA's RR were simply not built to accomodate 10-15 car consists!
If SEPTA were to run longer cars, theoretically consists that ran much longer than each station platform. Then you'd have some passengers up in arms about not being able to exit through certain doors, and having to move to the front of the train, etc. And I'm not sure how legal it is to run that long of a train, since the shorter platforms at most stops would not allow routine departures or emergency exits efficiently at all.
And about NJT's main NEC line being too crowded? All signs point to the restoration of a very successful West Trenton / New York line in our lifetime.
In my experience, that's because many of those cars are closed off. I'm not sure what NJT's policies are regarding this, but from the casual observer's point of view, it's as if the train crew would rather pack us in like sardines in a few cars rather than (*gasp*) walk through a couple more cars to collect tickets. It's one of the reasons I usually prefer to drive to Jersey City and take PATH rather than dealing with the NJT Trenton line.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Actually it is said P.J. and HBK are in the same banda.
What you do isn't wrong, but I wonder about your motivation sometimes. You seem to get pleasure out of it.
I too have had turnstile card swipers arrested, asked police to pull over a DWI driver on more than one occasion, and have been responsible for initiating several Child Protective Services investigations on parents who endangered their children (I am a mandated reporter - I have to, by law). I have even been assaulted by a parent and had to subdue her and hold her for police.
But I don't take perverse pleasure in it. I don't get my jollies doing it. I just do it. I hope that the person in trouble rehabilitates himself/herself, gets some help, moves on with life.
Whom are you trying to impress here?
It is more stupidity than malicious intent that is being complained of. Look at the difference between saying "I was on a train that went BIE yesterday morning for no reason that I could determine" and "Yesterday morning at 10:14 am between 5th Avenue and Grand Central on the 7 line going in the direction of Flushing, I was on a train that went BIE for no apparent reason." From a rail fan perspective, the first description of when and where the incident happened is sufficient to support any discussion of what happened. The second description, which is what some who post here insist on using, pin points for management the employees involved without adding anything to the discussion.
Tom
What they have going for them is something recently happened that was MUCH worse and did not make the radar here.
What crew? I used a completely hypothetical incident with no basis in reality.
Tom
Something really bad happened on Friday so a wrong route is now small fries.
Since Unca Dave's been diddling the code here lately, a NICE touch would be a flag for TRANSIT employees ONLY which could be flipped at their request prior to posting that changes their identity to "MTAsheep" for the posting so that there'd be no "audit trail" to nail them with if they shared a juicy morsel.
However, as long as their identity (there's so MANY damned wiglets downtown, wouldn't surprise me if someone's drawing 37.5 hours a week just tracking handle changes of MTA employees) ... having a shared "MTAsheep" identity or similar that ALL of them (and NOT foamers) could avail of, with safety to the poster for sharing, might make a difference in what *I* am into here.
One of the reasons for my OWN political angles is when I POST a "new thread", it's ALWAYS about politicos and TRAINS ... ALWAYS. Since I have 30 years of experience in journalism and politics, I know what stories are relevant, who the players are, and cite OTHER sources as links to the details if anyone cares. Only time I go off on rants about getting screwed by BOTH parties is if I'm bored out of my teat with all the other conversations, and somebody's given me inspiration.
Wanted to apologize for it just the same - I *do* make a point though to make any NEW posts relevant to transit, and when I'm tired from insane overwork because we can't afford to HIRE people so I can go sleep, well ... my apologies for going overboard. By that point, I'm too stupid from lack of sleep to realize what I've done. :(
But as to the rodent factor, a little MATURITY would go a long way. Unca Selkirk came here to hang out in a CREW ROOM. That's what subtalk has always been for ME ... alas, when a rat walks into a crew room, it gets lonely in there FAST. :(
The York Street fire certainly is far worse, and did make the radar here. There has to be some kind of failure, whether of system management on the whole, or by one or more specific employees, or something else, for that to happen the way it did. That fire could have been a major disaster if they hadn't been lucky. As someone said, this sort of thing shouldn't be happening any more.
PS: Is the driven speed recorded on the subway trains?
The trains i drive draw a distance-speed-diagram
Oh,
and
by
the
way,
I've
probably
driven
with
over .24!!
With some of the "busybodies" that show up on SubTalk and say they banged somebody in, they just might know how to read white text and bang you in for what you posted, or trash you 'cause of your former profession.
I would agree so long as what you were not "ratting" was some paperwork infraction or other problem which was not major corruption or a threat to the public's health and safety.
But refusing to turn in someone because they are "on the take" with a drug dealer, or taking bribes, or covering up a fellow officer's DUI related crash (this happened in Philadelphia) makes you and the offenders the rats. The pewrson who turns it in is doing his/her job. In those cases, I wouldn't hesitate to dismiss the entire precinct if I had to in order to restore order.
In Philly 12 out of 13 plumbing inspectors were prosecuted for taking bribes. The 13th, an honest guy who refused bribes (and did not turn in his fellow inspectors - they were caught by unrelated means) was harrassed to no end. The harrassers are low-lying scum who deserve to be fired, prosecuted, thrown in jail and barred from ever holding government employment again.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Here's why it's hard for me to believe some supervisor is gonna take action against an employee based on a message he reads (or hears about) in SubTalk. During my years as a commuter I've seen a few real nut jobs working in Transit. Yet despite riders complaining over and over about them (and in the most extreme terms) no action seemed to be taken for a long, long time, if ever.
A better example of the way I assume things usually work "behind-the-scenes" would be the crash on Boston's Green Line several years ago, caused by a highly intoxicated operator. The Boston Globe discovered that not one but two people had gotten off the train and called the T before the accident to say there was something wrong with the operator. They gave the Car #, the location, direction, the works. Basically the crash occurred while two supervisors were still trying to figure out, 'How do we handle this without getting someone fired?'
There, I've just told you about a real event without screwing the crew. Even if the president of the railroad read this post, he'd likely never be able to link it to the actual incident from the lack of details I've gien. If a crew member reports it, fine. If another passenger reports it, then the crew is screwed. Point is we can discuss the incident without giving specific details and screwing the crew.
Why such the bizzare schedule?
If there was no 6:00 and 6:13, then there would be no train service from Mytrle to Metropolitan for 45 minutes, unacceptable headway here.
Here's how to do it and what it will cost!
Trolley Museums (Seashore and Branford are two that I can speak of) have been hard it in our liability insurance premia the past few years. For example, the cost to insure four of our over-the-road buses last year now what it costs to insure just ONE.
On Saturday, trains leave NWK every 30 mins on the on the hour and half hour. As you know, stay on that train and you will get to HOB eventually. Wait, this is interesting. Trains leave EXPL for HOB every 15 minutes, starting 8:53am. How do they run twice as many trains betw EXPL and HOB than they do betw EXPL and NWK? I assume it's possible via the fact that HOB has three tracks and EXPL has two, but I don't wanna try to work it out.
Also: NWK - EXPL = 18 min
Layover @ EXPL = 5 min
EXPL - HOB = 6 min
Total = 29 min
This is a grat site for preserving the tradition of old and present lines, glad I found it.
I rode the last run on the last day. That last run must have been comprised of 99% railfans. Even people leaning out their apartment windows knew that this was the last run.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a good question, though I don't know the answer. My mind that day was transfixed on the Myrtle Ave. line and not baseball.
Bill "Newkirk"
The last regularly scheduled trip was a midnight run that was officially on 4 Oct 69. The first game of the playoffs was scheduled later in the afternoon.
Who remembers Nolan Ryan coming on in relief of Gary Gentry in Game 3 and winding up as the winning pitcher in the pennant-clinching game?
wayne
wayne
I think that there was a VA hospital at the downtown Brooklyn end near the BQE and Navy Yard, and we went there on the Myrtle Ave. El.
I seem to recall hearing of a truck, possibly a semi, turning under the El in the area of Fort Greene park. From what I was told at the time as the truck started up the hill on Myrtle ave there was not enough clearance and the truck struck and damaged one of the cross girters. I beleive there was an article in the new york news. but any way mta had the structure shored up until the last train passed over the site. now this would have been in october 1969. does anyone remember this or could correct my memory on the circomestances thanks
john
My 6th grade history teacher lived in downtown Brooklyn, and sometimes when I would get off the B18 bus at Wyckoff and Gates Avenues by the Hamburg Savings Bank I would see him get off the Myrtle el, and we would walk to school together (St. Brigid parochial school). I remember views of the Myrtle el between Wyckoff and Knickerbocker Avenue stations from many windows of the St. Brigid School buildings.
I remember waits at Broadway and Myrtle for the "steel trains" to and from Manhattan to arrive and pass below on the Myrtle Avenue station of the Broadway/Jamaica el. These trains seemed fascinating and out of the ordinary at the time, because I hadn't yet ridden them. They became very familiar when I rode them to and from work regularly, from around Thanksgiving 1974 through August 1, 1975, and again June 1979 through mid-September 1991, when I married and moved out of Ridgewood.
I remember seeing Navy St. from the Myrtle el, as an s-curve street heading north from Myrtle through tall apartment buildings, just south of the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
I too remember the mezzanine with token booth and two staircases to the Myrtle Avenue sidewalk between Gates Avenue and Palmetto Street. I think I last used that token booth in June 1975. My family and I frequented a Chinese restaurant on the south side of Myrtle between Gates and Palmetto in the mid-60's. It was on the second floor and I think named the New World Inn. I remember sitting with my family in a booth by the window in January 1966, discussing the transit strike, and how threatening the incipient fare hike from 15 to 20 cents seemed at the time. It seemed like you could climb right out that window onto the el stairs without even needing the building fire escape as an intermediate step.
A vivid memory of the January 1966 transit strike was the repeated use of the words "mediator" and "commuter" on radio news, and TWU labor leader Mike Quill quoted as telling a judge he could "drop dead in his black robes"! I also remember walking home from school after the strike had ended, relieved at the sounds of the Canarsie line running once again, coming up from the ventilation gratings on Wyckoff Avenue.
mike middle village, your fellow Brooklyn Tech-er Joseph D Korman has lots of great images of the Myrtle Avenue el on his website, the Joe Korner, not only in operation, but also when it was being demolished, taken from his classrooms at Brooklyn Tech.
Thanks for the reference to the Joe Korner. They are great photos that brought back some nice memories. I have been out of Middle Village/Ridgewood since 1978 but have great memories. Some change is good and some bad. From what I hear Ridgewood is not what it used to be, unfortunately. But I was surprised when I went to my 30th Tech reunion last year that the neighborhood there is rejuvenated. 30 years ago you could not walk around that neighborhood.
If, fom your handle, you are also nostalgic about Ridgewood (which I happen to be), the Times Newsweekly (www.timesnewsweekly.com), formerly the Ridgewood Times, has an Our Neighborhood section which contains intersting articles and pictures on Ridgewood history. You can read archived articles going back a couple years. The Thursday edition is online the following Monday.
A cousin of mine took the Myrtle Avenue line those same years I attended the Prep (1969-73) from either Wyckoff or Knickerbocker to Metropolitan Avenue to attend Christ the King H.S. in Middle Village
and would sometimes get hassled by public school kids getting on at
Forest Avenue.
You're welcome to my reference to the JoeKorner. I agree, Ridgewood is not what it used to be. I moved out in 1991 and sold my parents'
home there in 1999. I still visit once a month. I have learned that Bushwick is being gentrified. If Bushwick improves, can Ridgewood be far behind ? I'm glad to read that the Brooklyn Tech neighborhood has been rejuvenated.
Yes, I am nostalgic about Ridgewood as you are. Thanks for the link to the Times Newsweekly. I had already received the link from another SubTalker, and have read two recent "Our Neighborhood" articles. The first had to do with the Richmond Hill trolley that used to run on Myrtle Avenue(predecessor of the B and Q55 buses). The second, dated
August 7, was one of two parts, and was about the Frank Brewery that stood at Cypress Avenue between Weirfield and Hancock Streets until it was demolished in 1959. I remember that brewery, and will be responding to the Times Newsweekly with a written, paper letter (my first since October 1996) once I've read the second part.
I am also notslagic about, and interested in, the past history of Brooklyn Mass Transit, including not only the Myrtle Avenue el, but
the defunct Fulton Street and Lexington Avenue els.
Geez, see kids haven't changed (they were like that back then too it seems). Forest Ave used to be my home station when I went to Christ the King HS in the 80's, and although I never really got hassled, it was hell there when school let out at Forest Ave (at PS93). Luckily, I only had to pass through in the afternoon to get off, I didn't have to wait there, and in the morning there was never a problem when I was waiting for a train.
I agree, Ridgewood is not what it used to be. I moved out in 1991 and sold my parents'
home there in 1999. I still visit once a month. I have learned that Bushwick is being gentrified. If Bushwick improves, can Ridgewood be far behind ?
I left in 1993. I however don't find Ridgewood to be a bad area at all (I guess though depending on where you are). Actually, when I left, I feel the neighborhood could have gone either way - it wasn't bad, but it was at that critical point where it could have gone down instead of up. Wear and tear was starting to show. Luckily, lots of people came in in the last decade, and have fixed up and maintained wonderfully. I wouldn't call Ridgewood bad at all, although it is a bit seedy around where the Wyckoff-Myrtle station is (although it's been seedy their since the 70's. Even over there though it looks better than it did in the early 90's.
Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see how Ridgewood changes in the next decade or so. I'll be curious about it.
As a lonmg-time homebrewer who has made a Bushwick-style pilsner (Trommers), I have been reading about the history of Bushwick and the all the breweries that were there into the 1950s. It would be great to see that neighbohood revive, as you mentioned. As a historical touch, it would be nice to see a microbrewery go in.
If you want to do any special Ridgewood research, or just look further back at the the Ridgewood Times, the main Queens library branch in Jamaica has the Ridgewood Times going way back. I believe it is on microfilm going back to its inception, which would be around 1925(?). You don't need a Queens library card to access it. I believe it's in what's called the Long Island History or Reading Room (see the library's web site).
I hope you enjoy Ridgewood when you go back there to visit your Miraculous Medal classmates. Some of my classmates at the Prep were from Miraculous Medal parish in "upper" Ridgewood. I am from "lower" Ridgewood (near the Brooklyn border).
Interesting that you mention Trommer's. The beer garden of that name used to be at Bushwick Avenue and Conway Street near Broadway Junction in East New York. There was a Sunday N Y Times article about five or six weeks ago, titled "Something's Brewing in Bushwick", about new housing being made out of the old Rheingold Brewery near
B'way / Myrtle. I think the RKO Bushwick Theater near Broadway and
Howard Avenue is also being renovated into new housing.
Indeed it is, and coming along quite nicely, especially compared to what it looked like in April (bottom photo). There's even a new McDonalds there....things are shaping up.
(sorry about the quality of the last one, it started to rain, and it's the only "before" shot I have of it.
Pleasure that some drunk asshole,wont have a chance to kill an innocent life,or LIVES!!!!!!!!!!
I DONT ever feel sympathy for thr PERP!! I feel for the VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who am I trying to impress???????
whoever you think I am trying to impress Ron.If you think its 1 person,than its 1 person.If you think its 2 people,then its 2 people.
and so on and so forth.
Arti
As you know, Arti, I've had my moments, too.
I am most interested for the museum to take a 95xx GE set because they are plenty left. Other than 9572-73 you mentioned, are any R36 sets in good enough shape?
CNJ #1169
Tempel at Tuckahoe (NJ) station
Jersey Central open-end obs
CNJ #1169 was built in 1927 and was used on the Blue Comet, Jersey Central's classy Jersey City to Atlantic City train.
The second trip behind NKP 765 was to Port Jervis. Since the turntable (mentioned by Jersey Mike in his thread about tomorrow’s Port Jervis trip) hadn’t yet been uncovered, there was no facility to turn the locomotive, so the return trip was behind M&E Alcos. I copped a shot of NJT U34CH’s while getting set for a run-by.
So, for a fiasco that people still talk about, it was a good experience for me.
Well plan B wold have me skipping the Shuttle and go to the (J)/(M) Lines instead via the B24 Bus to Marcy Ave and then hop on the J or M Trains across to Manhattan
Thanks, in advance!
Also, check out the SubTalk Chicago Field Trip Report from two years ago.
Also, contact Bill Davis (chicagomotorman) to see whether he'll be available. I noticed a particularly upbeat motorman on the Red Line while in Chicago a couple days prior to the SubTalk field trip. Subsequently he joined us as motorman/host on the Red Line. It was Irwin Bill Davis! It's an experience to ride his train whether you know him or not.
I had no problem photographing CTA without a permit on two trips to Chicago, but things may be different now.
Check out this relatively new exhibit:
http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/great_train_story/tour/chicago.html
They call it The Great Train Story and it's a model railroad of the trains between Chicago and Seattle. It's huge, detailed and included the Chicago "L" lines in the Chicago portion.
If you're there on a weekday, don't miss the Douglas branch, currently under rehabilitation. I'm not sure how much of the old is still there. The Douglas branch doesn't run on weekends (or holidays, so I had to pass). (Neither does the Evanston Express, but you probably knew that already. Rush hours only!)
To: All Concerned
Subj: Commercial Production
Activity: Photography on CTA Property
Line/Route: Systemwide
Effective: Immediately
Issued 3/18/03:
"Persons taking photographs on CTA property may be generally classified in two categories: professional and personal.
Professional
Professional photographers and organized production companies are prohibited from taking pictures on CTA property unless they are escorted by appropriate CTA personnel or posses official permission authorizing access. Individuals and groups in this category may be identified by the presence of a variety of cameras withor without a tripod, multiple camera lenses and/or a production support team with professional talent. Professional photographers and organized production companies often remain at one location for an extended period of time.
Personal
Personal photographers are permitted on CTA property if their activity is incidental, does not pose a distraction to others and does not affect any customer or employee's safety. Individuals in this category may be identified by the use of simple cameras. Personal photographers generally spend little time in one location and take pictures while waiting for a train.
Employees must courteously inform customer(s) who are not in compliance of this policy. If assistance is required, employees must contact Communication/Power Control.
If you have any questions regarding teh contents of this bulletin, please contact your manager.
J.A.H.
Vice President,
Rail Operations"
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCT basically has the same policy. Commercial/media need a permit, personal do not.
Some people are up at arms about the NYCT memo over photography. The problem is that the crews are going to the extreme. The memo states persons taking extensive photoographs or of restricted areas. Some crews and other employees are calling in any photography going on and not making the distinction between "extensive" and a few pictures here and there. Its really not the NYCT policy makers at fault here, but the lack of management to inform the employees of what this memo really means.
One poster here received a ticket for taking video on the 7. Personal video is covered under the same clause as personal photography. It's not the crews: at least one police officer is under the impression that personal videography without a permit is prohibited.
And the police officer in question stated that he was under orders to ticket people engaged in personal videography on the subway.
When you appear for your hearing, make sure you have a copy of the law. Not printed from this website, but take a few minutes to go down to the NYPL and make a copy of the actual code.
His post is right before yours.
Read it, print it, and carry it when you go the Windy City.
"As for the CTA - their official management policy on photographing is as long as you're not a professional and don't stay at one location too long, it is OK. Don't expect to set up a video
for hours at a time at one location.
Most operators however are not happy with photos of any kind and some will tell you that you can't take pictures on CTA property. Just challenge them to call the "control center" to check the official policy - that will take the wind out of their crap."
Unless you are as brain dead as some Subtalkers have said, you'll print what I told you to and carry it with you on your next Chicago visit, as well as take the advice JimK posted.
I'm a manager of transportation at CTA, and I helped produce this bulletin and many others within Rail Operations. The intention was to allow personnel the right to make a judgment call and remove the person if they put themselves or others in danger.
We do have a lot of operators who don't feel they need to read bulletins. You can help us by calling the main CTA number, 312-664-7200 during business hours, and ask for the transportation office of the particular line you were on and give them the information you recorded.
Thank you for the posting. I'm a resident of Chicago, who also happens to be a fan of the 'L'. I'm proud of the CTA system, how much improved the service has become since the dark days of the late 1990's.
I do like to take a camera out occasionally to take photo's. However, I've been yelled at and told to shove my camera when I don't care to put one. What is with these operators? They are truly unprofessional, and forget that approximately 1/2 of their salary comes from taxpayers like me. The other half comes directly from me when I pay $75 for 30 days worth of riding.
Once the rail operators and bus drivers on CTA realize their job is taking me from point A to point B safely and on time, and not making the run in order to collect their paycheck, then CTA will truly became a world class transit system.
Yes, there are quite a few good rail operators and bus drivers on the system. They come to work, deal with the BS, and still have a good attitude. The understand that if I don't keep coming back, there will be cutbacks. However, the few make it bad for the many. This is true in a lot of organizations.
I espescially feel bad if friend comes from out of town to visit and they are harrassed, yes the word is harrassed, by some operators when they are taking pictures. I'm guessing they think we're selling these pictures to CTA management. Or what do they have to hide?
I've already challenged one pretty obnoxious operator on the Blue Line, asking her to call the control center to verify the CTA policy on photo's. I got the middle digit salute from that happy camper.
Thanks to you, and the other level headed CTA managers who realize that most railfans are responsible, know the dangers of a railroad, and respect private property. We appreciate the support!
Jim K.
Chicago
I'd have taken a picture of that, and snet it in to control.
Elias
jshaw@chicagotransit.com
Thanks again!
-- David
Philadelpia, PA
--Mark
I assume you use this parking structure at Wells and Lake to get the best shots of Tower 18?
--Mark
However, I personally know two people who have been ordered off the property when they were seen you gararge attendents. It has to do with insurance, or so they say. The attendents threatened to call the police. For a while, there was a sign in the window downstairs by the elevator that stated "Private property, no photographers".
All railfans should respect private property.
As for the CTA - their official management policy on photographing is as long as you're not a professional and don't stay at one location too long, it is OK. Don't expect to set up a video for hours at a time at one location.
Most operators however are not happy with photos of any kind and some will tell you that you can't take pictures on CTA property. Just challenge them to call the "control center" to check the official policy - that will take the wind out of their crap.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks again!
Contact CTA Customer Service at 1-888-YOUR-CTA or
1-888-968-7282 weekdays from 7:00am to 8:00pm or E-mail us
at ctahelp@transitchicago.com
As many have said before, as long as it looks like you're doing casual photography, you shouldn't have any trouble.
In Highland Park, a half-dozen men wearing dust masks and ear plugs used jackhammers to chip away the concrete beneath the Historic Highland Park Station platform.
"A lot of workers are trying to do a good job because they don't want to do it twice,' said Greg Tse with Kiewit/Washington, the primary contractor on the Gold Line project. "We're looking forward to getting it over with.'
Tse said inspectors discovered that the crawl space under the platform, where someone caught on the tracks can duck to escape an oncoming train, was too small.
The problem had been fixed on the east side of the platform, Tse continued, and crews planned to work through Saturday to finish the west side.
Mostly quality control checks are finding small problems. For instance, a malfunctioning toilet was found the day before at the East Pasadena Station in Pasadena, Tse said. Roto-Rooter was called to get that fixed.
At the Southwest Museum Station in Los Angeles, Luis Aleman and Tom Peachee were adding a new layer of concrete on the long ramp that leads up to the platform. The two man crew had been there since 7 a.m. and expected to run into overtime.
"His hand is as smooth as a surgeon's,' Aleman joked as he watched Peachee smooth the concrete. They said the crews chosen to do the finishing touches are the "cream of the crop' those who can handle the long hours while avoiding mistakes.
The ramp was being fixed to meet Americans with Disabilities Act standards. Peachee said they would finish there on Thursday and then move to the Lincoln Heights/Cypress Park Station to fix another ramp.
"There are going to be little jobs continuing right up to opening day and even afterwards,' said Nate Baguio, spokesman for the Gold Line. But most of the work will be minor, like painting or adding landscaping. "You won't see large crews doing any work,' he said.
At Pasadena's Lake Avenue Station, workers will have to even out the concrete tiles on the platform. A few light fixtures need to be added along the stairwells, as well.
City officials in Pasadena are also making a few improvements of their own. Planters and sidewalks are being built at the Lake Avenue Station, both to dress it up and prevent traffic problems, said City Engineer Dan Rix. The work should be completed early next week, before the Gold Line opens July 26, he added.
Sidewalks around the East Pasadena Station are being widened and a right turn lane is being added at Sierra Madre and Foothill boulevards to help improve traffic flow from the nearby parking structure.
A few projects will wait until after the opening, Rix said, such as a planned clock tower at the Lake Avenue Station and sidewalk canopy made of solar cells.
Now I know I have to rail fan along the Gold Line. That toilet in the East Pasadena Station is the first one I have ever heard of in the whole system. I would be amazed if it is a public rest room. :-)
Tom
Jimmy
NOTE: My e-mail address has been changed but can access from this site.
JLA
Won't be there tomorrow though... sorry to miss you. Enjoy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
The second one finds me awakened from a dream and told to enter this big dark building. As I do I search for a light and find that I am in a small room with a big cealing. As I press a button a large door opens and in the middle of the building is The Cyclone.
Mark
Don't tell me there was a connection to the 76th St. station !
Bill "Newkirk"
It already is a dungeon.
Here's a weird dream I had a few weeks ago. It involved the lower level at 42nd St. But instead of there being one track and one platform, there were four tracks and two platforms, and they swerved diagonally in the middle of the station! There was a train of hybrid R-32/38s signed up as an E. The cars were in as-delivered condition, with the bulkhead signs and marker lights outlined as on the R-38s, but the doors were dark blue, R-32 style.
And speaking of R-32s, I had another dream in which they were running on Chicago's Red line!
As for passengers being dumb - have you been on a train lately?
And Alex.....now, now. Be nice.
Woman on s/b Q at Seventh Ave: - I want to go to 36 Ave in Brooklyn.
Me - There is no 36 Ave in Brooklyn.
Woman - Where CostCo is.
Me - The only CostCo I know in Brooklyn is on Third Ave. Go back to deKalb, go to the other platform and wait for the W or R.
Woman - Why didn't this one go there?
Me - Because this is a Q.
Woman - Then why did it stop at Whitehall?
Me - Because it is supposed to.
Woman - But you said it's a Q?
Me - Yes (indication finally came in and we left).
"This is a D train, right?"
"Yes."
"Why are the street numbers going up at each stop? I want to go to Brooklyn."
"This train's going to the Bronx. You want to get off at Rockefeller Center, go upstairs and down to the platform on the other side."
"No, I want to go to Brooklyn. I don't want to go to Rockefeller Center."
"Rockefeller Center is the next stop, you can get off there and get a train to Brooklyn on the other side."
"Can't you just turn THIS one around? It's going the wrong way."
"Sorry, I have to go to the Bronx, that's where they've sent this train."
"What's your name and badge number?"
Slam, click. :)
Back in the old days, when the TA owned a projector, there was a training film we were required to watch. I'll sum it up here:
Laws Of Slow People
1. Slow people always walk side by side, even if they don't
know each other.
2. They drive side by side, too. If they can't find another
slow driver to pair up with, they drive in the fast lane.
3. Slow walkers never look back. When they drive, they never
look in their rearview mirrors, either.
4. Slow people drift sideways so they'll block the path of
anyone trying to pass them. If two people or vehicles are
trying to get around them at the same time, they drift into
the path of the one that is moving at the highest speed.
5. Follow behind a slow person in the grocery store and you'll
wind up with soggy ice cream every time.
6. If you spot Slow people approaching your train, the holding
lights are out. Ignore those three orange lamps, close up.
That is really funny. Even my non-railfan roommate liked it. Why did no one reply to it?
I agree that it was funny, but what in it requires a response?
Tom
To tell him it was funny, that you liked it, and he should continue posting such things in the future.
In other words, the "LOL" kind of response which, when done by ten to twenty posters, makes trying to read the Sub Talk posts such a waste of time. Maybe it is time for Dave to cut back the number of posts per day to ten.
Tom
You're right, I hate LOL. LOL should never be in a post alone. If you follow my instructions that won't happen.
Maybe it is time for Dave to cut back the number of posts per day to ten.
The hell it is!!!!!
For those who WANT to, anyone want to tell their own version of the frequent fliers from out of town who come up to you in the cab and ask if you can open up one of the OTHER bathrooms on the train? :)
Then, a couple of years ago I found THIS place. And while I always had an affinity for trains, being in the company HERE of current day folks, I've found an appreciation for the situations I went through NOT being unique at all. I *still* think the MTA is overloaded with pinheads, but generally they're not found IN the trains. :)
Bingbong busts my chops among folks I've met here, "When he worked for the TA, he DESPISED it. NOW he's all gooey about it." Heh. But yeah, seeing the same stations back and forth, day in and day out has got to be the most BONECRUSHING boring-arsed job there is. The thrill wears off quickly. At least the paycheck sorta makes up for it. If it wasn't for all the nonsense though, wouldn't be so bad.
Bottom line, if you're a foamer, a job with the TA *will* cure it. :)
STILL, great to play with an old friend and "feel her up" ... nothing like the satisfaction of a LAP dance with an Arnine to bring back many fond memories. But still, all things considered, the MTA doesn't HAVE enough beer to make ME interested in ever coming back, running subway trains for a pick, no matter WHAT line you run (I started out on the BRIGHTON, from there EVERY other pick was uphill and only four motors) so while life cut me a chitty deal at the time, and for my own trying to get along with folks who didn't WANT me at Stillwell, and a nasty revelation that followed a couple of years later - well ... God took GOOD care of me.
Had I stayed there, I probably would have "wounded or maimed" either a "customer," a beakie, or I would have gone USPS and headed for Brooklyn on a "Mission from God" and taken out as many as I could. Heh. "You talking to ME?" ... fortunately for ALL, I moved out of the city to SquirrelLand and other festivities. I'm MUCH better now. But had I stayed at the TA, not been forced into my hobby of ELECTRONICS and COMPUTERS and POLITICS ... well ... heh.
Bottom line, I woulda gone insane had I been with the TA for 6 more months. God is good, God is great, God stuffed our faces with chocolate cake. Then came Shrub. :)
Scenario: About three years, just before the Manny-B switcheroo. My daily routine involves going from Rockefeller Center down to 34th, on 6th ave. I take whatever I get at Rock. This time, an F and one of the expresses arrive at the exact same time. I pick the F.
We arrive at 42nd together. I watch as the express closes up, and pulls out. Meanwhile, my F is still sitting there. I stick my head out, I see a bunch of red signals in the tunnel, and the tail end of another F in front of us. Not a good sign.
The conductor comes on: "Ladies and gentlemen, because of a disabled train in front of us, this F train will be running express from 34th to West 4th. If you're going to 23rd or 14th, take this train to West 4th; at West 4th go upstairs and across, and take the F local in the opposite direction."
I watch as half the train empties out, and the crowd marches up the stairs and across to the other side. Soon thereafter we get the signal to cross over to the express, close up, and proceed.
Canal St S/B, on the (4) train, day of the brown (R) GO. C/R says at every station, "the last stop on this train will be Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall. For continued service to Brooklyn and Fulton St, Wall St, & Bowling Green, transfer for special R train service at Brooklyn Bridge. Take that to Fulton Street or Boro Hall and change for the 3. DO NOT get off at Canal Street for the R. Stay on this train to Brooklyn Bridge."
Of course, half the train got off at Canal St muttering about the R train, after looking at the subway map and completely disregarding the C/R's repeated and thorough announcements.
http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/ap07-19-021133.asp?t=apnew&vts=71920030613
Then your beloved rats would have died !
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
subfan
http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNBC/A1704225.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/nyregion/20SUBW.html
More Than 60 People Hospitalized After Subway Track Fire
By Eyewitness News Reporter Kemberly Richardson
(New York-WABC, July 19, 2003) — A subway track fire sends dozens of straphangers scrambling on Saturday morning. It happened on the tracks of the F train in downtown Brooklyn.
Witnesses said the only way out was walking about a half a mile down a dark, smoky tunnel alongside subway tracks. It was dangerous, and many people didn't think they were going to make it out. About a 100 people were standing on the platform and some were riding on the F train, as it pulled into the York Street station in downtown Brooklyn. They also said they heard several loud explosions, saw bright orange flashes, and began immediately breathing in thick, black smoke. People huddled together on the platform, before making the decision to find a way out.
John Reilly, Eyewitness: "When we got off the train, everyone started running towards the opposite end. The stairs were totally overcome with smoke. We couldn't get out that way...and we were trying to go down the track...they would not let us go down the track. It was the only safe exit. The smoke was rolling in...like three feet every 10 seconds."
Leah Key, Eyewitness: "You heard several explosions...like about seven or eight explosions. I was worried...but it's like I knew there was a way out...but I honestly thought I was going to die of smoke or whatever. Because there was a lot...a lot of smoke. At one point, I couldn't breathe. People started gagging."
Chief Rod O'Connor, FDNY: "In this type of weather, the smoke gets very heavy...stratifies...and it is very difficult to remove...and we can't put the exhaust fans on until we know exactly what type of fire situation we have in the subway tunnel."
Fire officials believe the cause of the fire was a part -- known as a shoe -- that connects to the third rail for power. The shoe is thought to have come loose and started to spark. About 100 people were evacuated and more than 60 of them had to go to the hospital for smoke inhalation.
i also saw the news,the said it was the 3rd rail shoe beam that caused
the fire.and it was an R46 that got damaged.didn,t get the car numbers
though.did anybody see the car numbers.?and can it be repaired?
til next time
Which is why, as I said earlier, that the tunnel is a last-resort exit.
Most IND stations probably have multiple exits, though.
Expect to see 6132 (and possibly at least one of its mates) at CIY for quite some time. I hope that the train can be repaired and be able to run in service again.
Looks pretty burnt on the exterior but the photo shows the car lights still on.
wayne
I'd hardly call a train that is almost 30 years old, new.
Peace,
ANDEE
Rip Van Winkle wakes up after a long, deep sleep....:0)
on another note,i got on an exprees 4 train,the train was in consecutive order(7161-7165&7166-7170)R142.and going back home,i saw
R142 1176-1180.had a great time.and they had a G.O going to the bronx
from BB city hall to grand central.had some fun on the IRT east side.
til next time
The Daily News reported that the motorman and conductor held the passengers in the station until the power was shut off. The conductor was hospitalized with breathing difficulties after he did his best to protect the passengers.
Daily News article
The New York Post presented a whole different story:
New York Post story
And here's the Newsday article:
Newsday article
From all reports, this was quite a serious situation and credit is due to all crew members, track workers, police, fire and ems workers who helped saved the passengers lives.
I wonder if it was just a shoe that came off?
In 100+ years of subways, car department, things going bad on a crew, THIS was a first of its kind. TALK about a "freak accident" ... :(
Also I just ran into an article about the incident in the People's Daily from Mainland China. It looks like they did a little cut and paste job, but I was amused at their ending the article with an explanation in the rerouting of service on the F. Maybe they have a big railfan readership.
People's Daily report
Situation HERE sounds like the show actually fell off and got caught between the third rail and the track, or perhaps one of the wheels. Rare event, but does happen ...
OTOH, we certainly can't dig out second exits from half the stations in the system.
That makes it sound like they stopped there randomly. What the Post doesn't say is that there is always at least one, sometimes six officers posted there around the clock. I use that station every day.
I am glad that the fire was at this station instead of one without police, otherwise that fire may have gone on for much longer before being noticed.
My biggest fear is getting trapped in one of those cars with both end doors locked and heavy smoke. Locked doors are a huge hazard in this situation. I understand that they are locked for safety concerns when those long cars are moving, but they should be unlocked.
To me, this is more of a safety problem than fix. If you need to get out of a car for whatever reason, even if just to get away from someone you don't want to be near, there is no way to do so between stations, and it would be pretty hard to argue with a crew or police that you had to break out 2 windows to leave a car just because some weirdo was looking at you funny or trying to incite an arguement/fight...
I guess when some gets killed some day they'll get the idea...
When the 75-foot cars go around certain turns, there is a shearing action between the cars that could be fatal to anyone crossing between them.
Incidentally, SIR doesn't lock their R-44 doors, but recently they removed the switch that would unlock them if they were locked, presumably to prevent people from getting into closed cars or cabs adjacent to blind ends. The MTA R-44s and 46s had that switch removed with the GOH...
LIRR has 85' cars, and never locks the doors.
SIR does not have to make the corner at Broadway and Canal Street, and likely enough does not have the curve problems that would be encountered in the subway.
Now a question: Do the 44s on SIR have diferent truck spacings then on NYCT?
You put the trucks closer to the ends of the cars and there is less overhang when going through switches or on curves, but the center needs more clearance, which is not always found in tunnels.
So does NYCT shorten the wheelbase for an optimum performance in the tunnels and sacrifice with wider swings at the ends of the cars?
Elias
Easiest way to figure out is by looking at the R46s on the R. If the yellow is sorta dark, its an old sign. But if the yellow looks bright and flourescent (think the yellow used in highlighters), it's likely a new sign.
At 9:30am we meet up at Times Square (At the 10 car marker on the 7 line, "local track") then take the 7 to Main Street and take the Q65 to Jamaica and take the J to Essex Street (Lunch Break might happen here) Then take the F to Avenue X then take the B1 or B4 to the N 86 Street Station. Ride the N to Pacific Street to take the Q to Sheepshead Bay to take the Q Beach Bus to Coney Island to grab the W to Union Square to the L train to Rockaway Parkway and back to Broadway Junction to take the A to Mott Avenue (Far Rockaway) back on the A to 59 Street to take the 1 (Beacause 125 Street Viaduct counts) to 242 Street then take the Bx10 to the 4 Line and take it to 149 Street and take the 5 or 2 line to their terminal then back to 125 Street and take the 6 Line and then end the trip at Pehlam Bay Park.
Remember this is only the preliminary plan, this plan is subject to change. So mark your calenders!
1 correction:
to 242 Street then take the Bx10 to the 4 Line
is better said as:
to 242 Street then take the Bx9 to the 4 Line
The Bx9 stops right under the 242 Terminal... the Bx10 under 231.
Go for the 9
:)
You know, we ( 1 )'s have a name for people like you....
Rhymes with brassknoll. LOL :)
I do like the viaduct (and the rest of your skinny little (1) line), I just started thinking, "where could the most gratuitous, distant, out-of-the-way bus trip for this whole thing be?" Sure enough ... 242nd street. Given a whole day up there, though, Kingsbridge is one of my favorite neighborhoods to walk around.
Too bad they couldn't make up their minds how deep to run your dumb subway.
Welcome!
I'll probably come as long as you make the trip to Motts Avenue first.
I'm *MOVING* to New York City (hopefully for good) on either 8/21 or 8/23. If the move happens on 8/21, I'm game for this trip. I suppose it's a great way to better familiarize myself with the system I'll be using an infinite number of times in the years ahead.
Chris, as a newcomer to west Queens, I can also tell you, we missed the Astoria.
It's our pleasure to serve you ... QSC :-)
8-) ~ Sparky
Run the V train to Church Av making all stops during rush hours only.
Run two F trains, one would have Coney Island trains make express stops between Church Av & Jay St while the Kings Highway trains would make all stops between Jay St & Church Av.
Riders between Kings Highway & Jay St along the local stops would have more frequent service.
Any comments, please post.
Why do you not want the V to run to Church during its entire normal weekday operating period?
The V would be the local service and the F would resume as the express service.
The reason it can not be done now are two fold
1-Not enough cars. The Manhattan Bride service plan will take up all current cars after all the R-143's are on the property and are placed in service on the L and M lines. Since i take the L line daily i can report that 4 trains of R 42's are still being used
2-Reconstruction of the Bergen Street Tower
Thank You
But then the Culver Line's "inner-zone" stations would have a letter other than F. While that may seem petty, remember that many residents of Park Slope and Cobble Hill are former Manhattanites whose property values are based largely on having reliable F train service at all times. A service with any other letter may be reliable, but it won't be the F.
Compare with complaints in 1991 about NYCT's proposal to route the Q to 207th Street ("it has to be the A because the song says so"), or with the importance of the 212 area code in Manhattan property values.
Letter F line has a long tradition going back to the early years of the IND. As long as New York has a subway, it should have the F especially under Queens Blvd.
Personally, I don't think the ridership on the Culver will increase by enough to run many more trains than they do right now, unless the TA was willing to lose money on the line to provide express service. The F has always been an acceptable option for people living along its route, unlike some lines, and most people along its route have been employed. So you won't get the huge increases due to demographic shifts that you get on some lines, and housing growth is slow. The other option is to draw riders from other lines, but with the Manny B fully open, you might get some of the reverse.
I grew up in Sheepshead Bay and was spoiled by Brighton Express service all of my life. That is, after they restarted it during mid-day weekdays in 1967.
So now that you aren't living there you're bitching about the TA's restoring express service...:0)
Residents want a service they used to have. The TA is restoring it.
It is laughable, or should be.
Then again, let's go back to one of the examples I cited in my earlier post. As part of the 1991 service cut proposal, the A would have run local to 168th and the Q would have been the Central Park West express to 207th. The community's response reflected what I call the "Ellington-Strayhorn theory" of service planning: The primary CPW express service had to be the A because the song in general and one reference in particular ("the quickest way to Harlem") created an obligation on NYCT's part to retain the A as an express.
NYCT actually decided, as a back-up plan, to relabel both routes (A became C, while Q became A) in response to the "Ellington-Strayhorn" complaints. If the proposal had actually been implemented, the A would have run between 207th Street and Brighton Beach via CPW-Sixth-Brighton Express!
Some people may think it silly, but I'd say that tradition has some value and should be respected if reasonable to do so.
We boarded at 86th as a D was passing.
We passed the D between 86th and 81st.
It passed us at 81st.
We passed it between 81st and 72nd.
It passed us at 72nd.
We passed it between 72nd and 59th.
We got off at 59th. The C pulled out. About half a minute later, the D showed its headlights.
This C was particularly crowded, being the first local after a stalled train at 116th was cleared. (In the interim, one B was sent down the express and one C -- presumably the train that had been stalled -- ran light down the local. So the train we rode was carrying three trainloads.) Dwell times were longer than averge. There was no obvious congestion on the express track. This took place after 10am.
Or ask me about the time I rode a C from 86th to 168th a year or two ago. An A went by around when I got on the C. At 168th the C just missed a connection with the A one interval ahead.
CBTC doesn't affect grade timers. If a grade timer is warranted, a grade timer is warranted regardless of the signal system.
Timers are NYCT's highly inefficient way of insuring a certain speed isn't exceeded along a certain stretch of track. The result is that T/Os go slower than the max allowed speed just in case the timer is set poorly, and they do so for a greater distance than the specific condition actually requires.
CBTC, if properly implemented, can allow the reduced speed to be held for a shorter distance and more precisely.
Grade timers, if properly implemented also allow for the reduced speed to be held for a minimum distance.
The "precision" of a CBTC control is a myth under NYCT's implementation. The commands from the CBTC system that get sent to the trainline network are operator based: e.g. place controller in position 3; place brake in position 2; etc. It is not cruise control: maintain 27.5 mph or brake at 2 mph/sec to stop at chainmark xxx.
The pity is that the flexibility provided by modern AC motor controllers has been completely lost. NYCT has succeeded in making 1980's technology mimic 1900's performance in 2000 and for the forseeable future.
Ahh, but you're forgetting; Manhattus, that lovely little island, is just tailor-made for limited-stop subway trains running up and down its avenues. They are the red and white blood cells traveling through the veins of the city. So too are the territories of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens aided by the express routes. Don't discount their value. It's more than time metrics.
You've mentioned before that ridership in areas with high welfare rates tends to be low due to the lack of everyday commuting. I guess the F in Brooklyn is in the opposite situation.
BALDERDASH!
I used to live two blocks from the (F) in Brooklyn, but always walked the 6 blocks to DeKalb or Atlantic to get the (QB) train. I just could not tolerate how slow the (F) was through the Rutgers Tunnel to 6th Avenue.
NOW THEN:
I have written my plan here before, but since you were not listening :^)
Here it is again.
(V) 6th Avenue Local to WORLD TRADE CENTER 16/5
(G) Crosstown Local to Church Avenue 24/7
(F) 6th Avenue Local / Culver Local to Coney Island 24/7
(C) 8th Avenue Local / Culver Express to Kings Highway 16/5
(E) 8th Avenue Express / Fulton Street Local 16/5 else to WTC
Rational:
1) No changes to (F) service, no cuts to places now served.
2) (V) provides 6th Avenue Service to Downtown Presently there is none.
3) (A) and (E) service as 8th Ave Exp eliminates downtown switching, all 8 Ave Express trains will take the Cranberry Route, the (C) takes the Rutgers that has excess capacity.
Part of extending trains provides better service by getting them out of Downtown before switching them.
Maybe Culver does not *NEED* an express train, but we do need a place where we can turn the sucker. (Church cannot turn two services)
Track arrangements on the Culver do not permit the express trains to continue to Coney Island, the must end at Kings Highway if another service is to be added. CI does not thave the capacity to turn two services on the Culver.
Think not only of "maybe we can do..." it affects every part of the subway, especially if you are not careful what is happening at the other end, or at junctions.
Elias
(V) Culver Express 16/5 (->CI)
other lines no changes
is better
I probably won't offend any of you guys, because this board is probably BELOW a Carroll Street resident.
Only half serious.
The (Q) will be Local 24/7, the (B) will be express 16/5.
On the West end the (D) will run because it is a 24/7 route, the (B) is not.
Elias
What's this? I never heard about this. Where on earth would the (A) train have gone? How would that have affected (B)(D) service? Would the (B) have been the 63rd St Line? Hey, this sounds kinda interesting. What was wrong with it?
The Q would, of course, go via the 63rd St tunnel.
But something will have to be assigned to the Second Av Subway's first leg, and that will probably be the Q.
Do you have a better candidate? Do you want to send the F train there instead? Considering that one Broadway service (the R) already serves Queens Blvd, it would be unwise to devote another and then not offer Sixth Av service at all.
That's why the Q will be headed north in future.
Nonsense. If anything, the folks are licking their chops to get an F express back (remember, they used to have one) Property values are based on reliable subway service.
"Compare with complaints in 1991 about NYCT's proposal to route the Q to 207th Street ("it has to be the A because the song says so"), or with the importance of the 212 area code in Manhattan property values."
You're giving an insignificant event event a lot more hot air than it even generated back then. The 212 issue was serious, but New Yorkers have finished bitching and moaning about it - and lo and behold, their property values have not suffered at all.
I feel it was a slap in the face that perfectly respectable letters like B and D were removed from service south of 34th Street and replaced with letters from the bottom of the alphabet, like Q and W. Whatta insult!
www.forgotten-ny.com
What in particular is "insulting" about Q and W? What "respectable" attributes do B and D have that Q and W lack?
Arghhhhh. I was being FACETIOUS.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I guess we all look at things very differently - I was offended when the the "T" was replaced with the invading "B" from that foreign line that runs up sixth avenue ;-)
About the Shuttle Bus, they are poorly run, IMO. The bus I got on was already crowded and for some reason, the bus assigned was one of those RTS' with the Surburban-style seating. Why do you even need such a bus for this route? BTW, does anyone know where these buses come from? I don't know what bus assignments are in Brooklyn.
David
Wow, I had no idea it was that expensive! So there's over 200 suburbans that now run on local routes man no wonder there wasn't a mass conversion to transit seats.
I swear to you that 9 days out of ten my F train skip-stops between B'way LaFayette & Jay in the evening rush. If the V train were also to Brooklyn, at least to Church (though I would argure for making the V the Kings Hwy train the the F the Ave X/Coney train), you would not have the F train getting held-up all along 6th Avenue by passengers trying to cram themselves in and the doors not being able to close because they could't get on the V train because it wasn't going where they wanted to go and this results in the F train lagging so much they have to skip-stop (even tho the C/R announces "express," its not really express but skip-stop skipping 2nd Av, E. B'way & York) by the time the train makes the turn outta W4 and hits B'way-Laf because most people who ride the 6th Avenue trains aren't riding to East Broadway or 2nd Av, but rather to Brooklyn (a trickle use Delancey to change to the J/M/Z) which results in empty downtown V trains clogging-up the trunk for the F train which is the one most downtown 6th Av. passengers want becaue its going to Brooklyn I know this is a run-on sentence but I think its fitting here....
Of course, the easy fix would be to simply swap the letters (F from Church to Continental, V from Avenue X to 179th), but then the Queens Blvd express crowd would lose their favored letter.
Whose property values are more important? :-)
I'm sure that they could run the V to Kings Highway although Church would be the ideal terminal [better turning capabilities and more tracks].
This is NOT true. According to the way I heard things here, Church, even though it has mor tracks than King's Highway, does NOT have more turning capacity. It has to do with how far the crossover is from the station. Apparently the length of "wrong railing" is too great to get good capacity out of that station.
Remember it was never intended to be a terminal, but rather it was supposed to be a JUNCTION for the Ft. Hamilton line to Staten Island!
but first I want to get something straight... this refers to the F train trackage just past Jay Street, correct? Are they rebuilding this connection, or severing this connection? I've seen them do a lot of work on it lately.
Or is this something completely different?
It is south of Jay actually. They are rebuilding the entire Bergen interlokcing that was damaged due to a fire in 1999.
Anyway here are my ideas for the culver line, assuming they get those express tracks back in operation. Again I'm not sure if shortage of cars would be an issue here.
Before Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Regular times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
After Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue. Express in peak direction, Church Avenue to Kings Highway.
Middays and Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other Times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Rush Hours: Runs to Kings Highway, all stops (or maybe Avenue X, whichever is more feasible).
Other times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
Or the second option, do it as it was years ago, when during rush hours, "Kings Highway" F trains would go local, and "Coney Island" F trains would go express in peak direction. In this scenario the V would go to Church Avenue during regular operating hours.
The main points of my idea are,
- G train riders can travel to/from Church Avenue on weekdays without switching trains.
- Riders at local stations between Bergen Street and Church Avenue now have two lines serving them on weekdays. They can take the G train to the crosstown line, or they can take the V train straight into Manhattan. Unless your destination is to and from the upper east side or Queens, there's no need to take the F train (because after Jay Street the V makes F stops to Rockefeller Center anyway).
- Following the reopening of Stillwell, Brooklyn F riders along McDonald Avenue and near Coney Island can save time when travelling to and from Manhattan on weekdays (even more time to and from express stations during rush hours).
The need for additional cars might make this tough to do... but does anyone have any comments?
Before Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Regular times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
Right now it isn't really possible to run the V to Brookl and from what somebody said a while back, the interlockings at Church Av needed some work so that's another con of implementing it so soon. BTW, these interlockings most likely won't be done until after Stillwell reopens in early-mid 2004 anyway. Why not just extend the G to Church Av all times except nights [at some times in the weekends the Culver has decent ridership north of Church] in which they can terminate at Smith/9.
When you make a subject line, don't say its completed, because its not.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The subject line is a completely grammatical phrase that is compeltely unambiguous to those who know the English language. I can say I will do something when hell freezes over, and everyone knows that this does not in fact imply that hell has already frozen over.
They cannot turn two services at church.... The crossover is too far away... too much "wrong railing"
Elias
F: same
G: extended to Church rush hours or all day weekdays (depending on V below)
V: extended past 2nd Ave rush hours or all day weekdays in the following manner: all stops to Smith/9th, express stops to Church Ave, express stops in peak direction to Kings Hwy (terminus).
As another Subtalker pointed out, price values or some other economic thing requires the F to operate local as it does now on the Culver line. If the V was a local, then I'd agree running it below Church would be unnecessary, but since the F must run local, it would be ridiculous to have an express start at Church. Maybe the F and V should just both run local?
On the other hand, running the F express will save everyone from Church south a few minutes, add service at Church and 7th, and will ultimately add tph at local stations south of Smith-9th.
That Subtalker was wrong. Price values and rider demand require that the F run express - but it wasn't physically able to until now.
The MTA has it right on this one.
I think it's the best idea
The Best idea is to run the F as the express.
Think about the A and C trains. The A continues beyond Euclid, but the C terminates there. When the C isn't running, the A is a local. Same concept.
Additionally, the F is already an express.
The only potential inconvenience would be for passengers north of Bergen wanting a local stop when the V is running express in Brooklyn -- they'd either have to change to or wait for the F. Given the frequency of F & V service during peak, it really shouldn't be much of a problem.
The following is the information that was given me
1-No weekend trunk line may not have more than 24 trains per hour because of general orders due to construction. Because of this restriction then it will not be possible to operate 4 services on the 8th Avenue Line. With this information i submitted the following plan
B Line-As proposed by the TA (No changes)
D Line-As proposed by the TA (No changes)
G Line- Midnight hour service to be discontinued between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave-See R Line before
M Line-Midday service from Metropolitan Ave to 9th Ave
N Line-Will operate daily except midnight hours between Stillwell Ave and 57th St-7th Ave via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express. Midnight hours between Stillwell Ave and Pacific Street only via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express
Q Line-Will operate at all times between Stillwell Ave and Ditmars Blvd/Astoria via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express between Canal Street and 34th Street when the W Line operates weekdays,Broadway Local from 34th Street to Astoria when W Line operates and from Canal Street to Astoria when the W Line does not operate.
R Line-Will operate at all times between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave.
W Line-As proposed by the TA
My proposal will do the following:
1-Improve Queens Blvd Local service to and from Manhattan during midnight hours especially between Queens Plaza and 65th Street where only 1 manhattan service operates
2-Gives Astoria Line riders Broadway Local service at all times between the Q and W Lines from Canal Street to Queens.
3-Still maintains Brighton Line service to Broadway Express weekdays and to Broadway Line Local stations when the B Line does not operate instead of having Brighton Line passengers change for the D late nights and weekends. See My chart
6TH AVE STATION BROADWAY LINE STATION
Grand Street Canal Street
Broadway-Lafaytte Prince Street
West 4th Street 8th Street
34th Street SAME STATION 34th Street
42nd Street Times Square
47th/50th Streets 49th Street
If you notice the differnce is only 1 block at Broadway Lafayette,42nd Street and 47th-50th Street and a couple of blocks for the Grand Street and West 4th Street
The TA rejected my plan for the following
1-They do not want to make any changes NORTH of 57th Street
2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated
3-Can not change the G Line
4- M Service not needed middays in Brooklyn south of Chambers Street
I would appreciate your comments
Thank You
While your specific plan was rejected, please note the following:
1) Since some elements of the TA's plan are the same, or very similar, to yours, you're getting some of what you want.
2) You've learned something about their thinking, and have established a basis for further discussion. The folks there do appreciate hearing from people like you, whether or not they implement specific ideas you put forth.
3) By posting the results here, you're sharing that knowledge with others on the board.
"2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated "
Your criticism could be quite valid. However, can you tell us something more about why a complex N-routing might, or might not be, easier to accomplish than a complex Q-routing? Again, you you could be right. You have an opportunity now to dissect this further.
I like what you've done very much. I hope other Subtalkers follow your example.
Barry
I also commend the TA for responding to you, and in enough detail to show they read your plan. SOP was always to just ignore people.
I was told by Operations Planning people whats wrong with my plan at the hearing June 12th
Thank You
No, wrong, and unfair for you to say. SOP was to ignore ranters. If you treated TA folks with dignity and respect they returned same.
My correspondence with the TA goes back maybe 15-17 years. Got a few "pr" letters, but the vast majority were written in a way that shows somebody was reading my stuff carefully. And I've always been shown respect and courtesy (not to mention that three of my suggestions have been implemented over the years...)
I agree that late night R service should be restored to Queens Blvd & Manhattan but then cutting the G may give riders the impression that they are getting the short end of the stick.
The TA rejected my plan for the following
1-They do not want to make any changes NORTH of 57th Street
2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated
3-Can not change the G Line
4- M Service not needed middays in Brooklyn south of Chambers Street
1) I think its best to leave the service north of 57 as is.
2) I don't think your Q route is complicated at all, its pretty simple IMO.
3) This is probably b/c of the fear of complaints.
4) I find this one to be very questionable. I think the M terminating at Chambers in the midday is quite rididculous and forces people to make another transfer, sometimes two.
I think this is a good suggestion that would simplify the late night routings alot-no N going 3 different ways for weekdays (Broadway Express via Bridge), weekends (Broadway Local via Bridge) and late nights (Broadway Local via Tunnel). Of course this might result in the N becoming a shuttle at late nights. One N Sea Beach shuttle and another W Astoria shuttle? That might be seen as slighting some riders-Sea Beach, Astoria and Crosstown for Queens Boulevard riders-something the MTA might be wary of.
Eventually will they have to change the G route when the Bergen Street work is finished?
6Av:
(B) ->BB Brighton Express;rush & midday
(D) ->CI West End;4Av X
Bway:
(Q) Astoria-CI Brighton Local;bridge;Bway L
(N) 57St-CI Sea Beach;4Av X;bridge;Bway X; Later 125St on SAS
(R) FH-95St 4Av Local;tunnel;nights 4Av Shuttle
Nassau:
->Bay Pkway West End;rush hour;midday ->9Av
About a block and a half down the street we see an el line with a train passing on an intersecting street. The entire movie was supposedly filmed in New York.
Since the storyline is about Coney Island, is this scene really in Brooklyn? Does anyone know the el line, the train, or the street shown in the scene?
Any help would be appreciated!
Various short trips are scheduled about twice a day. A trip to Moscow (PA not Russia) was scheduled for 11 AM on the day I was there.The train was made up of six coaches of CNJ and DL&W Heritage.
The DL&W cars were ex-MUs sans the pantographs. Motive power was an ex-Canadian Pacific Class G3C, a 4-6-2 steam locomotive. There is a restored platform in the yard which is where both the steamtown excursion trains and the electric city trolley leave from. Although the yard itself is owned by Steamtown timetable authority here and out on the mainline is by the Delaware-Lackawanna Railroad. We had a nice 13 mile run to Moscow Station which has also been restored. Local Moscovites set up tables at the station selling soda and souvenirs. WE passed through a short tunnel enroute and passed under a few abandoned railroad bridges. When we arrived back in Steamtowm a Canadian Pacific grain train had just pulled in from Michigan and was waiting for us to clear the line. Motive power for this train was two CP Rail SD 40-2 which unfortunately didn't have the power to get the train up the hill leaving Steamtown. He cleared the mall siding but didn't go much further. So the steam locomotive was uncoupled from the excursion train and gave the grain train a shove to clear the interlocing. The Delaware-Lackawanna dispatcher then sent a couple of pusher extras to get the freight over the hill.
The cost for the round trip was $15.00 US.
There is a long wooden ramp running from the yard and over it to connects to the mall and food court which affords great views of the yard.
In Part II I'll cover the Electric City Trolley. (IMHO best traction ridethis side of Branford.)
Larry, RedbirdR33
That's an understatement! The grand reopening was 1991 or 1993, and it is now 100% different and better than in 1990.
There is a restored platform in the yard which is where both the steamtown excursion trains and the electric city trolley leave from.
Actually, it is a brand new platform.
Local Moscovites set up tables at the station selling soda and souvenirs.
Actually, those are member of the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, of which my father and I are members. My father was a past president of the chapter, and he volunteers at that table on Sundays.
Motive power for this train was two CP Rail SD 40-2 which unfortunately didn't have the power to get the train up the hill leaving Steamtown. He cleared the mall siding but didn't go much further. So the steam locomotive was uncoupled from the excursion train and gave the grain train a shove to clear the interlocking.
THAT IS AMAZING! I never would have imagined that they would enlist the steam engine to help push the grain train. I'm ashamed to admit, but I must, that I almost didn't believe you. I called up my father just now, and he just so happened to have received a letter in the mail today from a volunteer at Steamtown. In the letter, he related the same story that you did about the grain train on Thursday. I'm sorry I doubted you :) FYI: In the letter, he said that the reason the train couldn't make it up the hill was that the lead SD-40 had died and couldn't be restarted. I wish I could have been there to see and photograph that event. Did you get photos? Did anyone there take photos or video of it?
I'm glad you went. I'm from a small town north of Scranton along the old DL&W (now CP) mainline.
Your friendly new Shore Line member,
Clayton
Lou can be seen in the movie again, thanks for teaching me again!
Jimmy
1) Why is there fencing on the front?
2) Why did you go for caternary over 3rd rail? Is it really just convience?
The "fencing" is wire embedded in a glass "sandwich" - an early version of safety glass, designed to prevent the glass from explosively shattering in the event it is struck by a flying object.
2) Why did you go for caternary over 3rd rail? Is it really just convience?
Branford is in Connecticut, where third rail was outlawed over 100 years ago. And it's not catenary, it's trolley wire... catenary is much more rigid and is used with pantographs whereas trolley wire is more flexible and requires a conventional trolley pole, equipped with either a carbon-insert shoe (a "slider") or a wheel. The R9 (and, I believe, all the r/t equipment) is equipped with a slider while the streetcars all have wheels; I presume that this is due to the higher current draw of the r/t equipment, but one of the r/t specialists would have to confirm that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems the RT equipment gets a lot of "press", though.
--Mark
Jimmy
1575 and 6688
I play everyday in the evening. Maybe we'll both have luck on them in the up coming weeks.
Jimmy
Kevin,
I have a slight variation on the dollars I don't play, its another
dollar, that gets contributed to a project at a "Trolley Museum".
I have a piece of this and and a piece of that. Some major $$$,
others just a slice. Membership in 5 museums, active in three,
have to spread the non-wealth where I can. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Glad you enjoyed. I would have introduced myself to you more fully if I had realized who you were... I was your friendly operator this morning on 629 from Sprague to Short Beach and back to Farm River Road.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you have some previous operating experience? Feedback from
your instructor was very good on brake control.
When you turn 18 you can take the course and
qualify here as a regular operator.
-Jeff H.
(Director of Training)
-Clayton
Peace,
ANDEE
8-) ~ Sparky
Jimmy
Anyhow, don't be a stranger...
CHEERS
Jimmy
Doors opened on track side between 9th St and 4th Ave. elevated section, nobody was hurt.
Early Saturday morning smoke and fire under train at York Street. Some admitted for smoke inhalation.
Comment: Fires will happen. But how can the doors open on the track side if the conductor is not stationed on that side of the train when the F is up in the air over the Guwaniss Canal? I do not understand. Could it be an electrical malfunction or could some vandal come in possession of a conductor's key?
Please explain.
I never saw a brake postion called "hold". Usually it is "release" and "run release". Is the hold position the same as running release?
Also, what is the difference between running release and release?
The difference between running and release depends on which
brake schedule you are talking about. On older schedules such
as #24, the full release position recharges the brake pipe rapidly.
It can be used for initial charging and to re-charge after an
emergency application, but is not used for normal release because
of the danger of overcharging the aux reservoirs and then having
the head-end brakes creep back on.
How should I put up photos on my site? I know I should have a digital scanner, but what should use? What software do you recommend?
I haven't got the site online yet. What are my options? I want a free or low-cost server. What are the costs? What kinds of servers are there?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Check this website out @ www.register.com
What type of Internet Connection do you have?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The local tracks are beside the Q train tracks [to the right of the s/b BMT track] the express tracks go under halfway into Bergen St I think
2. Why was the other mezzanine closed?
Could be low ridership
3. Do those vents and gratings lead to the IRT tracks?
Actually if you stand on the Manhattan bound platform near the front you could get a glimpse of 2/3 trains.
4. What kind of ridership does this station have during weekday rush hours?
I really don't know
PS - Start Posting Feedback, damn always asking questions but no feedback
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I think he wants to know if the R44 signs have updated A/C destinations [of course I know they are exclusive to the A except in certain circumstances].
PS - Start Posting Feedback, damn always asking questions but no feedback
Come on you already know the deal with Busfan.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Jimmy
It is. Roasting is pretty good too. Eel has a nut-like flavor not found in other types of fish. Skinning one is a real pain, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. Who organizes these trips?
2. How do I find out about them?
3. Where are all these old cars stored? Does MTA maintain them?
4. How much does it cost to operate a fan trip and go on a fan trip? (I'm sure MTA needs to help plan it out and whatnought by diverting timetables?)
5. When a train pulls into a station, what prevents regular passengers from boarding by accident (ie. They don't know or care its a fan trip, they just wanna get home). ID badges I think are used correct?
Thanks a lot for answering my questions LOL
Independent: Individuals who decide to organize these trips for fun
MTA: Knows there are people who want to ride nostalgic trains so organize these events.
2. How do I find out about them?
Mainly this site and some other transit oriented sites. NY1 does have bulletins about MTA organized trips but it's a bitch waiting 30 minutes for it.
3. Where are all these old cars stored? Does MTA maintain them?
For the most part any of these cars are stored at random yards throughout the city. And the MTA does maintain them.
4. How much does it cost to operate a fan trip and go on a fan trip? (I'm sure MTA needs to help plan it out and whatnought by diverting timetables?)
If it's just an independent trip then you only pay for carfare, but if it's a MTA trip then the price is $35 a ticket for adults. And all of the historic ones are on the weekends.
5. When a train pulls into a station, what prevents regular passengers from boarding by accident (i.e. They don't know or care its a fan trip, they just wanna get home). ID badges I think are used correct?
Nothing. They check your tickets before the train leaves. Plus the trains usually use the tracks that are unused.
Some of the other guys may know more stuff about this.
Smile.
Mostly the train does not make regular stops. When it does, maybe only one door is opened. On last years trip, some guy asked me (toward the end of the rip) if anybody could ride this train. No, the Tickets are $40.00 each, and to tell you the truth I'm not sure where the next stop will be anyway.
It depends on who is organizing a fan trip. The recent March of Dimes trips was orginized by C Division. But ANYBODY can charter the train if they want to. (Presuming they have enough money!)
C Division trips are 35-40$/person x about 400 people? = $14,000 about what I'd expect a subway charter to run for, unless you just wanter to charter a car at the end of a regular service train, then figure about $2-4000.
Sometimes another organiation such as the ERA or someone will run a charter. I was on an ERA rail grinder trip back in the 70s. it did not make any stops, but it was fun to ride through the stations watching the geese on the platforms.... Buy Bue....
Elias
On the MOD trips, I waved to the geese at every station. It was great! Some people would just stare, some would wave back, some would laugh, some would look confused, and some would give me the middle finger. But I loved turning things around and making them the show, not us. It was like I was telling them, "I know what's going on and what we're doing is normal. The fact that you have no clue is the only abnormal thing going on!"
Some people would just stare
some would wave back
We got that, but my photos of that didn't come out.
some would laugh
A lot of that too. Especially at West 4th Street and Broadway-Nassau. Very common, although it is really hard to photograph them from a moving train.
some would look confused
Yeah, that was the most common reaction:
and some would give me the middle finger
You know, that was also very common, especially at the Fulton Street Brooklyn stations. Our train got that many times. I can't count how many times our train got the finger. I guess because within a few seconds of our train entering the station they realized that "this wasn't their train".
Out of curiousity, did you guess this number or do you have something to base it on? I didn't know people/groups were allowed to charter cars on regular revenue trains, but I think it would be cool if it were allowed. Has this ever been done before?
All I had to do for my check that evening was wave my finger at folks from the 10th car noticing that the "extra car" seemed to be full of people having fun and wanted "in" ... needless to say, the storm doors were locked as well. Didn't have to do a damned thing but stand there for the entire trip out to Coney Island and back after the festivities there, prepared to evacuate if necessary and to make sure everyone was covered. Two plainclothes NYCTA cops in the car as well to make sure everyone was safe.
And no, wasn't allowed to party, wasn't allowed to sit down either. Got a few dates out of the deal 'tho. Talk about "gravy trains" ... :)
On a serious note, I think it would be fun to pitch in with a few friends and get one of those cars chartered. Extra nice would be if it were older stock; arnine would be asking too much probably (since they're going to slumber in the museum), so I'd settle for a redbird.
Folks who fail to learn from HISTORY are doomed to repeat it. And those who fail to learn from KISSINGER are just morons. But, ignore the political lesson as to what "LIBERAL" really is ... "LINDSAY", mayor of NYC ... LIBERAL, REPUBLICAN. Ever wonder why it's such a big deal?
I'm AMAZED though that "club car" is STILL available even if it's a C Division pick ... them zany republicans, what can I say? Democraps once used to have balls. After all, if republicans eat their young, and "liberals" WERE republicans, oh never mind ... STEP LIVELY, watch the closing doors, DAMMIT. :(
For those who don't wish to wait for it to load, basically midnight-5AM Tues-Fri, F trains run express 4th ave to Jay. I'm not sure but I think the last one of these was a midday one before the Manny-B flip, since increased headways were required through the area some Fs were sent via West End and Manny B.
I'd like to be on the first train over some of the most disused but still usable trackage in the system, but that 4th ave station creeps me out even in the daytime. I'd wait at another station or in the off-hour waiting area but I'd have to hear the announcement on the train on whether or not it'd be going that way.
I'd also like to railfan video it but the late hour, frequency of service (/ odds of an R-32), and the fact that I've no one to accompany me pretty much kill that idea...
Something to admire even in that setting. Rainy, or foggy nights on those high elevated platforms, the cityscape blinking...I must be nuts. I like it.
I wouldn't say that the 4 Av station is creepy, its kind of dark but not creepy. Now the passageway to the 4 Av line is a little creepy, dark & dingy in fact its a whole BUNCH of steps, a real workout.
I had missed the 2307 G out of continental, probably the last to go normal. I take the next G, the 2322, and after passing up an F connection at Roosevelt I notice this is not a G, but rather a _ to BEDFORD/NOST, and that may not have been a good idea.
Upon arrival at Greenpoint, we wait for 10 minutes "due to track work". Turns out, SINGLE TRACK (northbound only) from Nassau to Bedford-Nostrand, so the entire rest of this trip is wrong-rail. Personnel hand our T/O the Golden Paddle at Nassau, and it turns out we're the first train to do this tonight.
All the stations had noone on the southbound platform except for one VERY PISSED guy with a bike at the south end of Myrtle-Willoughby (crossunder with narrow steps is at north end).
Bedford-Nostrand, we arrive on center track, and from the layout this GO was doing I determined that only ONE TRAIN was to be south of Greenpoint at any given moment. Strike the G for return trip.
Shuttle to Hoyt, crossover, A to Jay, crossover, R-32 F to 4th ave. I see a N/B F on the local track leaving Carroll, and pax and many track workers were on the platform at Bergen, so I realized that the GO hadn't started yet. Arrive in 4th ave 12:40AM (if the G was running 100% normal the arrival at smith-9th would have been 12:06), cross under, wait by the front with half a dozen track workers staring at the switch (in the pouring rain). I note the "DO NOT STOP AT LOWER LEVEL BERGEN ST STATION" sign attached to the 10-car marker.
0026 (I think) F Ave X arrives, R46 6112 head car. After 5 minutes, finally get Y/Y and we're off! Probably didn't go any faster than 10MPH over the whole stretch, and the faces of the people at Smith-9th platform were of both amazement and annoyance, and no one was making any effort to herd them to the other platform.
Lower Bergen itself was a sight, the crossover switch was better lit (huge floodlights) than the actual station, it seemed even darker than it was 2 years ago, and now there's a giant metal booth in the middle of the N/B plat. Still no tile. Express run clocked in at 10 minutes and five seconds, from wheels turning at 4th to doors opening at Jay.
Trip back was eventful as well (stayed on train to Continental), lots of stations being hosed down, passed a 4-Car R-42 set signed as (L) at B'way-Lafayette, passed a work train with both an R-15 and R-21(22?) rider cars at W4th, and got cut off by an OOS G on the Express at 36st.
So, now a few questions...
1. What's the procedure when platforms get closed and passengers just missed the last train to use them? Is anyone supposed to help these folk to the correct platform (outside fare control if necessary) or do they just stand there until 5AM monday morning or take initiative?
2. Do they hose down station platforms every night or was I just lucky? Does it ever happen that a homeless person gets a free shower?
3. Not really a question, but the wrong-rail stop markers make no sense. The OPTO-S is in the middle with the 4-car, but the 6/8/10 are all at the end of the platform. Since 75' cars mean add 2 to their train lengths, it comes out to where the train stops depends entirely on how many the crew is, and not even the avid G customer should be expected to know that!
1) I hope they help them of they read the posters
2) dunno
3) aren't the stop markers for the T/O, not the passengers?
What I mean is the train stops at a different spot on the platform based solely on the number of crew members aboard, how are passengers supposed to know where to wait on the platform?
Why did they take the tile down in the first place. Lower Bergen did have tile. You can see it clearly in the movie, "Jacob's Ladder".
Also, I was under the impression that they couldn't use the tracks on the lower level until they fix the fire damage. What exactly was damaged in the fire in the late 90's?
They have been doing much work on the track down there, and most of the time have that length of track blocked off with a big 6"x6" laid on the rails at either end.
The tile removal at Bergen had something to do with water damage.
Maybe someone else can fill in the details, this is all I know.
It's not listed under the F advisories, but this G advisory implies that it's running all Sunday morning (midnight to noon) as well.
Sorry I could not make it,
Flushing7
Well, as I mentioned on previous occasions, delays are fairly common on that line. Be thankful that the delay wasn't on the outbound ride, otherwise as soon as you arrived at PJ, it would've been time to head back...
There was a 50-50 chance I would ended up taking your train this week. Glad I decided to stay over an extra day, and come back tonight, instead :-)
Glad to hear it was a good one!
R42'S!!!
PS: One R40M set was on the (M) as well
Part of it is the growing number of off-topic posts. Yes, politics have something to do with transit, but the birthday of the Republican Party doesn't have anything to do with Subtalk, nor do these Democrat vs. Republican arguments that some old-timers (and young ones too) get involved with.
But at least these off-topic posts have some coherence and intelligence. Many on-topic posts are incoherent ramblings! Some are simply impossible to comprehend. Simple things like sentence structure are ignored completely. The term "incoherent rant" has come to symbolize this website entirely.
And then there are these ridiculous postings that people are making up. I'm not citing any specific post, but there have been a number of posts recently that are about things that are totally false (nobody take offense here).
It seems that we're loosing things to talk about here on Subtalk. Especially with the loss of a number of posters who post things that are logical and factual. People who are in the know are leaving the board, and those who don't are either posting less frequently (possibly they feel the quality of posts has declined) or simply keeping mum on things they know about. What's even worse is that some people are getting ignored outright.
So, I've come to the conclusion that people are simply posting about things they have no idea about. Or, they are re-hashing past topics or posting about today's scintillating railfan trip. While the latter 2 are certainly welcome topics in my book (who the hell is J trainloco that we care about 'his book'?) so many of them becomes boring. How many times can you railfan the same system.
So I decided to think about what I could do to try to bring the quality of posts up here at subtalk. Well, first, I thought that posting my opinion might help. Maybe people would start to think before they posted. But then I came to an obvious conclusion: Stop posting. I realized, I have very little to add to many discussions here on Subtalk, since I only have knowledge to some MOW aspects of the system (and even fewer up to date aspects), and this seems to be a topic of little interest here. Thus, If I restricted myself to reading posts only, I could cut down on the number of posts that I thought were of 'poor quality'.
While this will be my last post, at least for a while, please leave feedback to this post, or at least e-mail me. I'd like to know what others think about the Quality of Subtalk posts, or if it's just me.
Of course, an entire board shutdown or at the very least, a temporary post limit for everyone will increase the quality dramatically. Such an episode should not be announced.
When you try to have a SERIOUS discussion, it starts off good then turns to flames and the employees who post here in particular is losing interest and basically just go away for long periods of time or don't return altogether. So it seems that people decide to move on and join other boards or whatever and what could we do about it? Well I said what I have to say. Y'all don't like it too tough, you could bitch & moan and all the complaining you want its the reality right now and I'm getting back to transit issues.
I wish you well during your Subtalk "time-out."
I think you're just experiencing that eventually many of us run out of interesting things to discuss on SubTalk. I don't think the quality of the posts is very different than it has been in the past -- though many of the names are new (and many of the old names are gone). What happens is that as you run out of things that are interesting to you, you read the other posts and find that they're not very interesting to you (they were always there, you just don't notice them when you have interesting things to discuss) -- then you decide that SubTalk as a whole is boring.
SubTalk for me has been a great place to learn about and discuss service changes or proposals, new capital projects or new trains -- but these things don't happen every day. You can discuss them 2 or 3 times -- maybe even once in a blue moon change your own opinion -- but eventually it's best to maintain ones sanity by agreeing to disagree.
I find myself posting much less frequently. I believe that it's a combination of not much change in the system recently and that I can often almost predict the responses that individual posters will have for what I write.
SubTalk is what it is, and is still what it always has been. Some of the best and worst posters have come and gone -- but there are new good and bad posters. It is a very select few, though, that have the passion, insight and knowledge to contribute on a frequent basis for years and years. Maybe you're just not one of them -- I know I'm not.
CG
Sometimes I post off-topic or reply to an off-topic post; but I try to limit myself in those situations. I reply to posts when I feel there is something to say, but lately there has been less of that for me personally. Perhaps quality of posts have gone down in some ways with flames and political rants, but I still think a lot of good transit-related stuff is posted for the most part.
Just my two cents. :-) -Nick
It is rather telling that you state that someone forthrightly stating an honestly held opinion causes flamage. Usually flamage starts when someone feels inadequate to post a logical argument in opposition to something that has been posted with which he disagrees, and therefor resorts to juvenile name calling and personal ridicule, which is then returned in kind.
Tom
Ok, IMO, by you just saying that, you are admitting that you are not a real railfan.
No, J trainloco's a railfan alright.
It's just that after a while, IMO, the same thing over and over again becomes monotonous after a while. Even before I started operating, I had seen every station, been on every line, etc. You name it, I've been there....and so have most of you. But personally, I don't wish to see Dyre Avenue and other similar areas multiple times when there are so many different things to see elsewhere. I've branched out to attempt to railfan other subway systems in the world, does that make me a phoney railfan because I won't railfan New York's system anymore?
And a message to J trainloco: Don't get your shorts in a bunch worrying about the "quality" of the posts here. You're just going to have to weed out the smart posts from the ones originated by the ones with the IQ of a twinkie. 'Tis like that on every message board.....unless mensa's got a board. Then you'd probably be looking forward to occasional stupidity.
Absolutely nothing,--- unless you can always identify them as high school kids from their posts.
Tom
Or maybe it's because the board is overrun with BIGOTS like you and smarter members are going elsewhere?
Kick up the margaritas!
But staying on topic, they're safety fenders, not COW WHAT-YAW-CALLS-IT. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
And here also, I may be a bit off topic, since the PE operated
interurban cars also. So let's just say Surface Cars, that are
electrically powered by a "trolley" or "conduit roller". >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Many people here think that NYCT is the only subway worth talking about. Many haven't ridden anything else but NYCT. Everyone should be assigned to ride a subway that isn't in NYC and then talk about your experiences. It would open the eyes of many people and would make for interesting discussions. There are hundreds of subways in the world, pick one and ride it.
It isn't necessary to ride every system. In fact, it isn't problematic if we continue talking NYCT. IMO, NYCT is full of endless topics, but some people aren't smart enough to find those topics and continue to be redundant, like with the Redbirds. Of course, I don't think talking about other systems is a bad thing and is always welcome here.
If anything, some posters on here have a tendency to go off-topic and that simply must stop. There are other boards with the World Wide Web to talk about that so go there. I've also noticed Mr. Pirmann hasn't popped in for these threads either, implying that he doesn't care anymore or he has given up. Of course, I don't believe any of that, but some might be inclined to do so. I've always thought that the concept of moderators would be welcome here, but it may be hard to implement, given the structure of the board software David P. uses. Well, if that ever comes to light, I would be all for it. Maybe even the elimination of the 50-post limit, since moderators could delete threads on the fly.
Another problen I find is crying out about problems and other petty issues. I remember someone (maybe it was I) who coined the term, 'SoapTalk.' That seems to be quite the case these days. I see a big barrage of off-topic threads which often turn to nothing more but unnessary flames and smut. These threads would be easily dealt with moderation or just common sense, which seems some posters do not have. Trying to analyze the roote of these problems, it usually starts when some idiot posts something offensive. The best solution is just to ignore it and let him/her be. Often, I see flame wars and unnessary brooding since people simply have to reply, whether it be out of anger or revenge. Just one good tip, let it go. It's best just to ignore it and move on. No need to waste your limit on a post which is a waste of bandwidth in the first place.
Finally, I notice that people often mistake or misunderstand posts as being offensive or mean. Take time to read posts and embrace what others have to say. Be productive in an environment such as this and surely Subtalk will rise from all these ridiculous and time-wasting threads. BTW, enough with the stupid 'Mystical Chix, Sea Beach, 76 Street and other issues'. They have been done to death and it seems replies are made ONLY with those issues in mind. Nothing more but a waste....as long as you use them sparingly as a ending quip with a meaningful post before it. :)
No one listens to what I say anyway. If you guys did, we wouldn't need "state of Subtalk" threads.
-Dave
While I generally don't like off-topic stuff, the Mystical Chix threads are pretty cool. They've become sort of a SubTalk tradition, sorta like threads about fast-food joints, not quite on-topic but nonetheless acceptable.
Besides, being a contrarian sort myself, I enjoy the Mystical Chix threads because of my unusual attitude toward those chix (namely, they don't float my boat).
GOD BLESS the yellow/yellows *IF* they don't HURT anyone ... sometimes, a transit related comment may spawn non-related parallel thoughts, but as someone MYSELF who has no money to contribute (if I did, I would PAY Dave as well as cut a check to Branford) ... all I have to contribute since last I knew, the RR went to Astoria and the CC went to Hudson Terminal - A trains did the Far Rock and Lefferts (some died at Euclid to become HH's) and the EE went down Broadway as a PROUD IND invasion.
So all I knew is meaningless today, even my OPERATING experiences. While I love the subways and all after 30 years away, I'd HATE to think that our environment of folks getting ALONG with one another and busting chops couldn't go off on tangents now and then.
And for the overly sensitive and angry, MY guess is that you're taking in subtalk in the "DEFAULT" flavor rather than playing with your settings, and doing a THREAD display by topic, or perhaps when you see new posts and you say WTF, you can click on "FIRST message in thread" ... if there's gasbags you detest, you can look through each of the subthreads and say "if Selkirk was in this thread, it went STRAIGHT to hell" ... I'd enjoy that, because those who don't care for me don't have a sense of humor ANYWAY and therefore, you can avoid me all together right there. :)
Then there's the killfile. After folks that *I* consider "gasbags" put ME in their "killfile", my own humor IMPROVED, because in the greater scheme of modern Orwellian living, THOSE people are "non-persons" ...
I can't FATHOM why we cheese off Unca Dave so much - Senor Pirrman has given us EVERYTHING!!! A veritable GARDEN of EDEN! All we need to do to rid ourselves of the irritating is to "nucularate them." SO simple, yet we whine. The most ANNOYING people disappear like Muslims! :(
Dave, you da man. You come closer to giving everyone what they want and hurting no one than Tony Blair. I DIDN'T almost get foreclosed -- where do I send the check?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p80564a22ea795e37b17ffb47e70ab65e/fbc6ee3e.jpg.orig.jpg
Heh heh, actually, my lack of interest in Mystical Chix isn't a conscious decision or anything, it's just not there ... hey, maybe I could claim this is a disability, caused by faulty brain chemistry or something, and qualify for a reduced-fare MetroCard!
Of course, I doesn't bother me that most of the discussion is about New York, since that was the original purpose of the board, and a majority of subtalkers live in New York. But I do hope that as many of our New York subtalkers do get the opportunity to explore the realms beyond the five broughs as possible...I know those who do it very much, based on the posts I read.
Mark
We have far too many posters who seem to feel that they are G-d's gift to railfandom and insist on parading their real ignorance of the topics at hand for all to see. Somewhere along the line, back about the time I was learning to talk, it was impressed on me that I should only use that ability when I had something worthwhile to say, be it a worthwhile statement or a well thought out question. That's one of the reasons you won't see me spouting off saying "the MTA should do this or that" ... I don't have enough knowledge to make an informed contribution to most of these discussions (not that that stops other equally ignorant posters from carrying on at length about the MTA's service patterns, choice of equipment, or whatever). Maybe if some of these folks would sit back and look at what they've posted, and then trash it and ask a well-considered question instead, this board could again become the basis for much knowledge sharing by those who have it. Carefully considered debate about the merits of various ideas is good - I'm not condemning such discussions at all (indeed, I particularly enjoy the banter between Stephen Baumann and others [although even that has been known to deteriorate into overreaching accusations of intellectual dishonesty] regardless of whether I agree with what is being said, because it stimulates my thinking) - but please everybody, think before you post. Otherwise this board will wither away to nothing because we will all tire of finding fewer and fewer pearls amongst an ocean full of sand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Chapter 11
Don't I wish! Most of it's been off-board, though. Two different people (one anonymously, one who identified themselves) took me strongly to task for a post I made a couple of weeks ago; let's just say that I'm glad neither email was a post on the board, as I suspect others would have responded with counter-flames and it could have gotten very nasty. That same post also generated a lengthy, positive email exchange between myself and another SubTalker, which was also probably better not being on the board as it only peripherally concerned rail transit. Wasn't it Fred Rogers who said "it's nice to be nice"? Whoever said it, I agree.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm pretty sure Mr. Rogers said it. That smart man speaks the truth. He is a railfan. :D
No, that's not what I meant... I wish I didn't get flamed... it just doesn't happen openly on the board that often, most of it is in email. But since I don't intentionally flame others I probably attract a lot less of it than some folks do, and that's good... the less flamage the better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse is truly one swine fellow.
Ah, but I'm a mouse of... how shall we put this... "overly ample proportions". There... I think I managed to avoid flaming myself :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1 for _mouse
Although if you look around sites devoted to Japanese anime, Godzilla, and some WB network shows you'll find my younger son, Anon_e_mouse Jr., who has posted here once or twice as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've kinda enjoyed the debates I've had. Just to name a few yourself, Q Brightliner, David Greenberger, the other David, Barry, Chris R27-30, Kool-D, Flatbush41, ExpressM and others all had interesting and good arguments. Even if we didn't always agree, what I liked about most of the Subtalkers (particularly the ones I listed) is that for the most part it was kept classy. It didn't get personal. I could say "your analogy is flawed" but then explain it isn't a personal attack so posters won't take it to the next level.
I think SubTalk will be okay as long as posters don't get into name-calling and are nicer to other posters...and when it gets brutally cold again. As long as posters remember to agree to disagree everything should be cool.
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Mark
So true. When I lived in the L. A. area, I made a total of 10 visits to the SF Bay Area between 1988 and 1997, and I never really covered everything, though I came close. And transit aside, San Francisco is one huge postcard, every visit I discovered a new scenic area :)
This leaves a vaccum and in it's absence are posts by wanna bees and or know-it-alls who -- in reality -- don't know jack about the workings of NYCT.
Just my two cents.
Now what the hell is that!?Sure I'll skip spaces,like I just did,but only for the hell of it.I mean,cmon!I've read 20-30 straight lines of text before with no problem's at all so what the hell!?You gotta be big time blind not to see anything!Can't come to me saying that it's unreadable cause that's flat out BS!BS!You hear me!?BS!Who the heck cares if you don't follow proper english guidelines.Like anyone does these days anyway!
Like I said already,this isn't an english class.It's not like I'm gonna get an "F" for not skipping spaces.It's ridiculous!I'll say it again!If anyone wants to write 20 lines worth of words without skipping spaces then it's ok to do so.No one here is some english teacher or whatever.
IN MY OPINION:
YOU NEED TO LIGHTEN' UP!
Jimmy
Sorry we did not get a chance to talk more but I had to get out to study the station. Since you mentioned SubTalk, I thought I would aplogize here.
Hope you enjoyed the round trip.
Right. 501 is a replica of the 41' suburban cars built by St Louis in 1909. 1058 was originally built as Los Angeles Pacific 713, a 1907 St Louis 49' interurban. It was renumbered 963 when Pacific Electric was formed in 1911. In 1963, it was rebuilt into a diesel bus and numbered 1058.
WHAT ! Did you say rebuilt into a diesel bus ? Please explain this, also where was #1058 all these years ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Car 1058 was rebuilt into a bus by Richard Fellows, who bought the body from (if I remember correctly) the scrapyard on Terminal Island. He put two-axle dollies under each end in the approximate location of the original trucks, one of them steerable. He rebuilt the car as a "Ten", replacing the original curved, two-window ends with flat four-window ends (I have to say, the thing really did look pretty good). The original PE "Tens" only went as high as car 1057, hence this was the first car lettered 1058. Fellows died around 1996 and eventually it was decided to convert it back to an electric car. I guess they decided it would be too much work to try and put the original ends back on the car, and they just left it with its Fellows number.
Frank Hicks
From what I've read, the original ends were destroyed, one by fire, one by a bulldozer.
Also, 1058 was the car in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Mark
It was rebuilt into a rubber tired bus ? Wouldn't the body be too heavy ? Also, where did they find the missing running gear, trucks etc. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess it wasn't too heavy. It would have been sitting on at least eight tires, possibly twelve, and all of the original underbody equipment would have been gone which would reduce the weight of the body to (just a guess) around 40-50,000 lbs.
Which brings me to your second question, which I'm wondering myself about the answer to. I notice in one of Salaam's photos that the car now has curved-equalizer trucks, which I would assume are 6'6" wheelbase Baldwin knockoffs from Japan - but that's just a guess. And where did the electrical equipment come from? Is that more mining company stuff? Anyone, anyone?
Frank Hicks
Yes; they fit in the replica category. Car 501 is already on the list, however the second car (500? 502?) wasn't complete last I heard so it isn't on yet. Car 501 has the distinction of being the first car in the "replica interurban" category.
Frank Hicks
In 2002 the L.A Harbor Board (the actual operator) needed a third truck (as a spare). They did not want to deal with Seashore again, so they were advised to contact The
Waiting... :)
Paul Matus brought the matter up, but I believe Dave has not fixed it yet.
This appears to be the exact same HTML error that Kool-D made in post # 532385 when he tried to put a link in his post. Are you using some sort of HTML writing program or are we seeing a strange Sub Talk bug?
Tom
Paul Matus brought the subject up, and Dave's aware of it.
I don't use a coding program, just the accepted HTML tags.
I have a NTML tutorial program that is very good. Drop me an e-mail if you want a copy.
To add to this, the "A" that I was riding on were R32s.
What's going on. Are they phasing out R32s on the "C" during the weekends? If so, why?
Thanks.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I said that I SAW only 2 R32s and the other 7 were R38s-meaning that I mostly SAW R38s on the "C".
I said nothing about the TA only operated 9 trains. In fact I don't know how many trains they ever operate.
The main idea of my original post was that I OBSERVED mostly R38s operating on the "C" today. Nothing more, nothing less.
The trip began for me arriving at 9:10 at the Hamelton NJT NEC station. This was a little early so I skipped the 10:19 local and caught the 10:42 express. The metal cover into the cab of the Arrow III was partly down so I got a railfan view good enough for pictures. We arrived at Newark on time and I transfered to PATH, leaving at 10:45
My train was hot and fast accross the meadows, and while most people got off at JSQ, I stayed on to ride PATH's Sceret Service...the NWK-EXP-HOB round robin. Well my train pulled out first, went to EXP, layed over the 2-3 min then revered out to Hoboken. It worked like a charm and I found myself at Hoboken at 11:20...nearly 40 minutes early for the trip. Well, I first discovered that all the food court type places were closed on the weekend so I had to settle for a hot dog from a seedy bar type place. Next, I walked out on platform 7/8 to take pics of the Terminal Tower and the trainshed. I walked back and began to circle aimlessly waiting for others to arrive. As time went on I began to fear that nobody was going to show up and I became more desperate for something to go. I explored the waiting room and took pictures there. I took pictures of the trains at the stub post and even validated my train tickets in the HLBR machine.
Still, there were a number of odd people gathering on the platform...I didn't quiet know who they were, but they looked to be railfans. I glanced at them and they glanced at me, but nothing happened until Pigs showed up at which point a greeted him and like 3 or 4 other Subtalkers at that point spoke up. This is exactly why I say we need to devolop a Subtalk Sceret Signal for covert identification.
Anyway, all told the group consisted of American Pig, Jersey Mike faxman, kinki sharyo, Piggo and an older SubTalker whose handle escapes me (sorry, I am truely awful with names). At that point we bought tickets and headed out on platform 9/10 to take more pics of terminal tower.
When we got back it was time to get on our train waiting on track 4. It consisted of NJT 4201 at the head, 3 Comet I coaches and an MNRR Comet I-A cab car. The cab car had a fresh coat of black paint applied to the inner door window, thus blocking the rainfan view. However, there was a small hole in the paint and acting on my own initiative I pulled out a quarter and yaddie yaddie yadda we had a squash ball sized viewing and photo peephole!
We pulled out on time and I had my first trip through the newly refurbished north tunnel. It was way too bright inside, all freshly lined and whatnot. they totally did away with the dank, which really ruined its ambiance as a tunnel. It also had an exposed, roof suspended jet engine style ventilation system.
We pulled onto the Main Line at WEST END. We went through the about to be opened Secaucas Connection, the line is now 4 tracks with concrete ties and looks ready for the Aug 5th opening. We saw the new Bergen connector and the UPPER HACK draw. The Mail Line b/t there and Patterson has seen extensive concrete tieing and also been upgraded to Rule 261 running. Furthermore, the old Passerson connector track (connecting the old DL&W Boonton Line w/ the old Erie Main Line) was been double tracked. Still, even with the concrete ties speeds were between 40 and 60.
We Ridgewood Junction I saw that the venerable RJ tower was still standing and looking better than even. It had the big interlocking nameplate on it and looked like an MoW lounge/relay room. Also still maintaining verticallity was the venerable and extremely "rustic" WC tower at Waldwick.
We got past Sufferen only to find that yes, the pole line signaling had been replaced and also, there weren't to many patches of jointed rail left, but we still reveled in the rockin and rollin that we could experiance. Our conductor was somewhat absentee from our car and I realized that I could sneak into the rear vestabule for important shots. I especially used this to my advantage at Moonda viaduct where I made use of the slid open side cab window to really record some breathtaking views. I also rude in the back vestabule through the Ottisville tunnel where due to the open windows I got a nice blast of diesel exhaust scented natural air conditioning. The tunnel also provided a facinating sconic effect for those standing in the un-insulated vestabule
The day was bright and sunny with cotton candy clouds in the sky. The region had seen plenty of rail so everything was green and lush. Out on the extremely rural PJ line this made for quantity of scenery that even 100 railfans all armed with digital cameras couldn't capture in its entirely.
We arrived at PJ ontime and after circling the parking lot a few times we ventured into the Burger King that had been the focus of our quest. After emerging we headed over in a large "Charter" to the rehabilitated turntable and old fuel pad and NJT yard to take pics. Alas the old coaling tower has been demolished.
We crossed the tracks to take pics of the PJ station and out train that had pulled east of the platform. We watched the crew attach a second engine, 4108, an original CNJ GP-40P, to the back of our train. They said it needed to be towed back to HOB for maintainence.
Here is where the problems began. We left ontime, but I noticed that our engineer kept having to look back out her window. Long story short is we stopped at Middletown station and this station stop turned into a 90 minute delay. The brakes on 4108 had locked up and wouldn't release. The crew tried valiantly, but their efforts were to no avail (although the female engineer kept getting more and more grubby each time we saw her) and we had to set the engine out at the Red Onion siding. But our troubles were not over. We had to proceed at restricted speed for about 2 miles due to excessive time spent in the block. Then, at Harriman they made us wait in a siding for 15 minutes for a northbound train to pass us. The end result was that we were routed down the Main Line to cover the guarenteed connections and missed out all the to be abandonned stuff on the Bergen. We also came in at night so Photos were out.
One interesting thing was NJT's really close spaces signal blocks. NJT has maintained the old timey 1 mile (approx) block spacing with what appears to be 4 block signaling as well. It is near to see the signal in advance of you light (approch lighting remember) as you pass by another signal.
NJT had some interesting signaling on the line. Yes they are all V target signals, but between RJ (Ridgewood) and SF (Sufferen) used mostly bracked mast signals, each two, two-head displays on them. The line past Sufferen mostly still retained its heritage Erie RR signaling, which was mostly GRS large target SA seatchlights. Some were still on their original Erie lattice bracket masts!
Anywho, we got in to HOB 2 hours late. The crew had told us to get a refuld for the trip, but alas the ticket office and customer care office were both closed. Most of us parted ways at this point, except I rode with Faxman on PATH (round robin service had started, but we were lucky and caught a train to JSQ quickly). I was going back to Hamelton, he Union Station on the RVL, but since we both had time to kill he bought me one of those new Stewarts Peach sodas (wow, it was intense!!) and we chatted in the grand lobby of Newark Penn.
I caught the 10:18 express train. It was an Arrow II train. I have been really miffed because NJT has been limiting its trains to 80 or so on the NEC for some reason, but I spiced up the ride by, before by stop at Hamelton and exercising extreme and prudent caution, sticking my head out one of the Arrow III sliding cab windows that had been left open while we were moving at quasi top speed. Unfortunately it was too dark for pics. My train arrived safely at 11:10 at Hamelton and I caught a ride home.
I will post picsures ASAP.
You missed one other detail: no ties in the tunnel. The rails are mounted in that new fashion: directly attached to the concrete floor, like in the reconstructed path tunnel.
Additionally, on the west end of the tunnels both bridges that span the freight tracks have been rebuilt. Each bridge got rebuilt as part of its tunnel overhaul, as a first order of business. The south bridge rebuilt was completed last week.
Our conductor was somewhat absentee from our car and I realized that I could sneak into the rear vestabule for important shots.
On outbound off-peak trips out of Hoboken everyone gets on at Hoboken, and rarely does anyone else get picked up along the way. There's no reason for the conductors to walk through the cars that much. They just pick a seat to relax, or hang out in the vestibules.
As I noted a few times -- delays for one or another reason are fairly frequent on that line, especially on weekends. There was a 50% chance I would've picked your train to head back to NYC this week; it's a good thing I decided to stay over an extra day.
One interesting thing was NJT's really close spaces signal blocks. NJT has maintained the old timey 1 mile (approx) block spacing with what appears to be 4 block signaling as well. It is near to see the signal in advance of you light (approch lighting remember) as you pass by another signal.
The most extreme instance of that is Suffern, with approach-lit signals near both ends of station, about a quarter mile away from each other.
Sounds like you had a great time. Sorry I missed it. Had gone fishing. But check out my post from Saturday: "Arrow III? Gone Fishing!"
Plenty of Metro-North and Amtrak details as well as the "catch of the day".
By the way, Arrow II happens to be retired. I assume you mean "Arrow III".
wink, wink ;)
Jimmy
But recently, I've noticed that a glitch exists with the "R Bay Ridge/95 St" code 12 setting. With many trains now, if you use code 12 (with cars with reprogrammed signs...which is almost all), it will copmpletely freeze up the signs trainline, or as least as far as the signal goes through the train. So if you originally had signs reading "R Forest Hills...71 Av...Broadway Lcl...via 60 St" throughout the train, and you change directions and use code 12 for the route, the first car may read the new code 12 sign but the other cars' signs will freeze with exactly what it was showing at the time the new code was entered.
On a related note, I have also seen the R46 signs display "SHUTTLE" on one side and "BAY RIDGE/95 ST" on the other. Why do "BAY RIDGE" and "95 ST" take up two separate readings on the signs when there is enough space to fit both on one line?
I doubt it... they'd have to walk outside the car to see "Bay Ridge/95th Street".
Why do "BAY RIDGE" and "95 ST" take up two separate readings on the signs when there is enough space to fit both on one line?
The one I was on last night had them both on the same line...it was a tight fit (no extra spaces on either side).
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/nyregion/20seco.html
www.forgotten-ny.com
David
The Times had to really dig to come up with some whiners. Let's see who sues.
The claim of 15 years of construction is also total nonsense. That's for the whole line, not in any given neighborhood.
I think the NIMBYs will be few and far between relative to any other project ever proposed.
Have Peter Rosa ship them some adult diapers and sopme pacifiers (Binky brand).
Unfortunately, our legal system being what it is, a few idiots can delay projects significantly.
As for the compaints in the Seaport area, after years of hearing that the line would be tunneled, they are now being told it has to be cut-and-cover around Fulton Street to clear the Cranberry Street tunnel. They could lose the playground for several years, but see it expanded to the western branch of Pearl Street when all is done (the part of Pearl that leads into southern part of Pearl, not the part that goes into Water Street).
It is definitely an environmental impact on the residents. It should be addressed. It shouldn't affect SAS, just details of construction, if at all.
What is wrong is when impacts are given too much weight, usually when the complainers have too much political power, or too little, when they have too little.
To raise a point I've made before, there'd be less opposition if public works projects in New York didn't take forever to be completed. New York has a disgraceful record when it comes to project completion, and people know that.
If something on the scale of the Big Dig ever were attempted in New York ... I shudder at the thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shifting gears slightly, this is one of the reasons I think it's important for there to be some form of rent control in NYC.
Like it or not, most residences in Manhattan are rentals. Rent control makes it possible for Manhattan residents to seriously consider staying in Manhattan -- otherwise, Manhattan may be fine temporarily, but it's simply too costly to live in permanently.
A temporary resident has no reason to favor the SAS and has every reason to oppose it. A temporary resident will have to live through the disruption but will be long gone by the time it opens.
A permanent resident can weigh the short-term inconveniences against the long-term benefits. I can't guarantee that all of them would see the SAS as a worthwhile tradeoff, but many would. (One catch: this permanent resident would have to be convinced that the inconvenience would actually lead to a finished, working product. NYCT's track record is hardly perfect here, although it's been gradually improving.)
A resident who isn't even here until the next Election Day has no reason to care about the SAS one way or the other, since the disruption won't begin until well past Election Day.
The concern is with the residents who are sticking around another few years before leaving. Many of them vote.
False and naive statement. Business leaders don't hesitate to communicate to employees about how important it is to vote for things that affect their continued employment. Business associations and trade groups do all kinds of things to get people to vote one way or another.
You've made a good point. I would say, however, that Manhattan renters are likely to be somewhat transitory - and therefore more likely to oppose the SAS - even with rent control, simply because home ownership is an investment rather than just an expenditure and provides major tax benefits thanks to the mortgage interest deduction.
There are people who want to live in Manhattan. They don't want to live in an investment -- they want to live in Manhattan. An investment will get them a very different lifestyle, one which is very difficult to find outside Manhattan.
And as long as those people are protected against punitive rent hikes, many of them will live in Manhattan.
But you raise another point.
You mention major tax benefits in home ownership. Who do you think pays for those major tax benefits? Renters. So why shouldn't renters get similar benefits? Of course, that's not what rent control is today -- but perhaps that's what rent control should be. Renters subsidize homeowners' taxes; in return, homeowners subsidize long-term renters' rents. Sounds fair to me.
Temporarily, for a couple of years, a little worse before the decking of the cut and cover project is laid down. It will require a little adjusting by people - but we know what first class crybabies New Yorkers are :0)
What was that sound? Oh, nothing much -- just every permanent Manhattan resident fleeing for the suburbs.
So much for any hope for the SAS.
Even then markets are nothing more than a useful tool for distribution. The thing is that we might not like the final outcome. If I end up having everything and everyone else nothing is that really fair? The problem is that markets do not concern themselves with fairness-only those who regulate them do. Of course some regulation is self-defeating but it is plainly wrong to say we would better off without any which is precisely what a free market demands (some weaker forms tolerate regulations very narrowly drawn against use of force and outright fraud but these are very narrow-for example many of these same theories would tolerate slavery).
Markets have their uses and that cannot be denied but we would be wrong to let "the invisible hand" determine everything. Should we outlaw prostitution? Should we regulate it? The selling of boday parts? Selling babies? If there is a market for child labor should we allow it? Should ingredients in food be disclosed? etc.
Ultimately saying you want the market to distribute things (unequally because there is a greatly unequal distribution of ability to pay in the first place) is not stating a rule of fairness-its accepting the results of a tricked up roulette wheel. With that in mind we can discuss what rent controls are reasonable and not-not saying let the market handle it.
Who said they were? They're the cure for almost everything.
(Why do I rarely hear the opponents of rent control arguing against these other existing intrusions into their claimed free market ideals?)
You'll hear me arguing against those other intrusions.
you seem to determined to keep this horsebleep subject alive.
I'll remember to take that and throw it in your face the next time you mention the worthless Sea Beach line again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either that or I hit my posting limit for the day.
(Hmmm...going for two days straight?)
Where do you get optimism? I only feel that it's worthy of discussion. Sea Beach usually isn't.
- If they cannot afford to live in Manhattan, they shouldn't. I can't. I don't. Why should someone else?
Are you speaking of short-term residents or long-term residents?
Because long-term residency is good for the community. I want to encourage short-term residents to stay and become long-term residents, not to run off to the suburbs after a few years.
Without some form of rent control (not necessarily the form currently in existence), it's difficult to remain in an apartment long-term. After a few years, the landlord can safely assume that the tenant has spent money to make improvements to the apartment and can raise the rent to usurious levels, forcing the tenant to choose between paying the inflated rents or abandoning the improvements. Rent control is protection against this sort of action.
Rent control also rewards tenants who are willing to move into neighborhoods that aren't in the greatest of shape. Just as a pioneer homeowner who helps to boost the livability of his neighborhood isn't chased out as property values go up (at least not directly), so is a pioneer renter who helps to boost the livability of his neighborhood not chased out as property values go up.
Most Manhattan residences are rentals. Like it or not, it's a fact of life.
If they cannot afford to live in Manhattan, they shouldn't. I can't. I don't. Why should someone else?
Peter Rosa gave one reason (without realizing it, to be sure), although it applies more generally to renters vs. homeowners: homeowners are subsidized through tax benefits on mortgages. Any tax benefit is subsidized by those who don't qualify for it. So renters are helping homeowners foot their bill. Why shouldn't homeowners be expected return the favor to renters?
I'll give another reason, one more relevant on a transportation discussion board. Manhattan residents subsidize transportation for the rest of the region. Manhattan residents, on average, take much shorter subway rides than non-Manhattan residents, and they tend to ride in more crowded conditions. They make greater use of the system off-peak, when passengers don't cost much to accomodate, since most don't have cars. Due to the high density, fewer stations accomodate more riders. Yet a short off-peak ride from a busy station costs the rider no less than a long peak ride from a lightly used station. That short off-peak ride may cost only a few cents for NYCT to provide, and the profit is used to subsidize a long peak trip that costs dollars to provide. And moving beyond the subway, you're well aware that subway riders subsidize commuter rail riders.
(Of course, rent control doesn't ask for subsidies from homeowners or non-Manhattanites at all. It's simply a condition of the rental business that all current landlords knew existed before they became landlords. I don't see why they deserve a sudden gift -- on the backs of their tenants.)
Gift? To be told how much you can charge to rent your own property? Herin lies the fundamental difference between you and me. I don't think it's right to tell a person who owns a building that he cannot rent an apartment to anyone who wishes to pay whatever rent he/she feels can be charged. Tenants are customers. If they cannot or if they will not pay what the landlord asks, they can find housing which fits their budget. This way every New Yorker has a fair shot at a reasonable rent. Taking thousands of apartments out of the market artifically and unfairly raises the rents people in uncontrolled buildings must pay.
Mind you, I don't support the abolition of rent control. I support it being phased out, with apartments that become vacant removed from governmental controls. That was the original intent of the law when it was instituted during WWII.
So I guess you must feel the same way about building codes. Why shouldn't the owner of a building with no working heat, with plumbing that leaks into the apartments, with no adequate fire escape route be allowed to rent an apartment to anyone who wishes to pay?
It's a valid opinion, but I don't share it.
Or if you do think building codes are appropriate, then your argument is weak. You can no longer argue that landlords can rent anything at any price they want; you can only argue that certain types of restrictions are inappropriate. You haven't told me why this sort of restriction is inappropriate while others might be appropriate.
In any case, today's landlords bought their properties well aware of rent control. Rent control is no less fair to them than building codes or even income taxes. Perhaps rent control was unfair to the landlords who were around when it was first enacted, but they're dead now. Current landlords knew about rent control before they entered the business.
Mind you, I don't support the abolition of rent control. I support it being phased out, with apartments that become vacant removed from governmental controls. That was the original intent of the law when it was instituted during WWII.
And as current long-term residents die off, Manhattan will become the borough of transients.
Transients don't care about the welfare of the city. They'll vote against anything that causes temporary disruption, like the SAS.
They also don't care about the welfare of their own neighborhoods. As quality of life in those neighborhoods decreases, Manhattan will lose residents, period, as even transients seek to live in greener pastures. That's bad for the rest of the city for two reasons. First, the city's raw population numbers will decrease. Second, the specific residents being lost are the ones who, on average, subsidize everyone else. If nobody's left who pays a full subway fare to commute one mile to work, then the fare will have to go up for everyone who pays that same subway fare to commute ten miles to work.
I don't care what happens to the rent when a tenant moves out. For all I care, the landlord can jack it up as high as he wants. But once a new tenant moves in, he needs some sort of protection.
Perhaps that protection shouldn't come from the landlord. Maybe it should come from other taxpayers, just as homeowners receive tax breaks from their fellow taxpayers. Mind you, I haven't formulated a specific arrangement -- I'm just thinking out loud.
No. It'll become an island of affluent tenants until market forces adjust. Few poor tenants benefit from rent control. In fact, they're the biggest victims.
The point is not to keep prices artificially low. The point is to prevent landlords from gouging. Without rent control in some form, long-term tenants are vulnerable.
Even the most affluent of long-term tenants won't be willing to put up with that sort of risk. If they can find a condo or co-op to their liking, great. Otherwise, they're off to the suburbs. (Now you get to subsidize a commute they didn't even want to begin with.)
Do all of these short-term tenants you always mention exist now or will they somehow magically be created if rent control is abolished? Where do they live now?
Perhaps because they want to get a taste of the city before moving on to the suburbs.
Perhaps because they're looking to get married, and the city is the best place to find the sort of mate they're looking for.
Perhaps because they're in school or at a short-term job in the city.
My neighborhood's full of them. They move out as soon as they've had enough of the city or as soon as they get married or as soon as they graduate. They're good people and good neighbors, but they don't care what the neighborhood's like in ten years.
Do all of these short-term tenants you always mention exist now or will they somehow magically be created if rent control is abolished? Where do they live now?
They exist. Many of those who can fit and can afford the rents live here. The rest find other neighborhoods and other boroughs to live in.
They'd love it if rent control were abolished, since more of them would be able to fit. But the neighborhood and the city would be worse off, since they have little reason to care about how the neighborhood or the city look in ten years, unlike the long-term residents they've displaced.
Most voters are selfish. No selfish short-term resident is in favor of the SAS. The SAS will only be built through the votes of long-term residents.
So does that mean that prices would go down, and housing stock would increase if rent regulation was done away with? Wasn't the intent of rent control to keep prices down, due to housing shortage?
Word. For instance, if you're looking for a Mystical Chik, living in Sea Cliff's probably a bad idea.
Ding! "Plonk!!!!!!!"
If subways were a private venture, someone would be willing to pay off people being inconvenienced in order to build something that would eventually make a profit.
That's not how private enterprise works. In unregulated environments, the private enterprise just does what it wants with its property and doesn't care at all about the neighboring property owners and residents. Did Rockefeller ever pay off a neighbor for the unsightly mess his oil well created?
In regulated environments, private enterprise lobbies the regulatory authorities (whether zoning boards or higher level govt agencies) to get the necessary approval. Again, individual neighbors are ignored because they have no power.
A fallacy of the anti-rent control argument is that it benefits only the well to do, like Mia Farrow with her 16 room apartment renting for $800 or whatever.
What will happen to my 3 room apartment in Flushing if all rent controls were removed? Any rise of $100, $200 per month would price me out, and would price out a huge group of middle class renters.
Controls must be maintained.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If that's the case then you DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE IN FLUSHING. You can live someplace more within your means instead of being subsidized.
On the contrary, if the only place he can afford to live is outside the city, we'll all be subsidizing his commute in.
If transportation was priced fairly, then most likely the city would be the cheaper place to live. It would have more supertall buildings, and more efficient transportation resources (read: no cars).
I deserve MUCH better.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So what? If that's where people can afford to live, that's where they should live.
What do malls have to do with any of this? New York City is likely to remain centralized. Even though new buildings are usually not subject to rent control, they still get built in Manhattan five after the other.
Do you know what it's like to drive around, say, Indianapolis and see real estate fashion after fashion sitting empty? That's what Manhattan and Stamford BOTH will look like in twenty years if the middle class residents all move out of one and the rich and poor move out of the other.
If centralization prevents this, then this argument proves NOTHING as it obviously has nothing to do with centralization and I don't see you giving any other rationale.
You think there's an endless supply of yuppie bond salesmen, advertising dweebs and adventurous au pairs to fill up this precious little island? I want the middle class back.
If not, then prices will go down so that someone else can afford it.
I want the middle class back.
I want the middle class back on Park Avenue, it ain't happening.
Rent control's end might mean that more of these middle class renters will buy condominiums and co-ops, thereby staying in Manhattan and acquiring a greater stake in the area's growth and prosperity. Not to mention the nice tax benefits they'd get.
As for Houston, it may not be a model of sound urban planning - though the upcoming light rail may signify a change in attitudes - but at least the people living there have jobs, which all too many people in New York (and, as far as I can tell, quite a few Subtalkers) do not.
I am VERY interested in the SAS and applicable Nimbys, living as I do in the heart of community opposition to anything that the community doesn't like.
HOWEVER, I do NOT want to read about rent control here. There are plenty of other places I can get informed opinions on the topic.
YOU GUYS ARE SABOTAGING A THREAD THAT I FIND VERY RELEVANT. PLEASE STOP!
And, getting back to my reason for raising rent control in the first place in this thread, temporary residents have no reason to support the SAS and have every reason to oppose it.
Rent control gives the tenant some degree of ownership rights to the improvements that he's bought.
Why, in the absence of rent control, would the apartment be renting for $4,000 when it's only worth half that much?
(I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Just as a homeowner probably has different tastes from the prior homeowner and will probably make modifications shortly after moving in, so do does a renter probably have different tastes from the prior renter and will probably make modifications shortly after moving in.)
Maybe not $4000. Maybe $3000 or $2500. Doesn't matter. If the tenant isn't protected against such price hikes, then the tenant won't be staying long -- and the tenant who plans to stay long will live elsewhere, where he is protected.
But I'm not talking about a new tenant. I'm talking about a tenant who's been around a few years and just spent thousands of dollars remodeling the place to make it suitable for permanent residency. At that point the landlord can very easily get away with overcharging, since the tenant's only other choice is to abandon the thousands of dollars he just spent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you think rent control is? It's simply a contract, mandated by the city in certain circumstances, between the landlord and the tenant that limits the rate of rent increases.
Without rent control or a similar contract, there would be no such thing as a long-term rental, for the very reason you give: anyone seeking to remodel is left with no practical choice but to buy, and options to buy in Manhattan are limited. That leaves Manhattan with few residents willing to make temporary sacrifices for future gains, since they'll gone before they can reap those gains. (AlM, my point is very much transit-related.)
That's all rent control is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes. Why are owners bad?
So then why are you complaining? Manhattan isn't for you and you found some place that is.
Can't say much about short term fools, but New York would be far better off if there were more homeowners (which includes co-op and condo owners) and fewer renters. Owners have the most stake in an area's growth and therefore are the most likely to support transit projects that promise such growth even at the cost of some short-term inconvenience.
A long-term owner has more of a stake in an area than a long-term renter.
A short-term owner has more of a stake in an area than a short-term renter.
Why?
The owner has to sell his apartment when he is done, I'm sure he doesn't want to lose a lot of money on the investment. A renter need only wait for the lease to expire. Both will have to incur the costs of moving equally.
If I'm planning to live in the same place for 30 years, whether I rent or I own, I'm going to do my best to ensure that my neighborhood has whatever amenities I need to live well -- adequate transportation, low crime, etc.
If I'm only here for 3 years, it doesn't really matter what I think, since my decisions won't yield any results, aside from temporary inconvenience, until I'm long gone. Might as well minimize the inconvenience.
People don't live in Manhattan for the investment. They live in Manhattan for Manhattan.
That applies to both a renter and an owner. An owner also has to sell the property. You still haven't put up any reason why a renter would have more at stake than an owner.
I said that a long-term renter has more at stake than a short-term owner.
Once we bring rent control into the picture, we're not talking about the average renter anymore. Rent control encourages renters to be long-term, and it encourages people looking for long-term residences to seriously consider rentals in the city (as opposed to, e.g., houses in the suburbs). That's good for the city's health.
Are you sure you didn't mix up renter and owner in the first part of the sentence?
Rent control encourages renters to be long-term, and it encourages people looking for long-term residences to seriously consider rentals in the city (as opposed to, e.g., houses in the suburbs). That's good for the city's health.
Renters need not be long term. I have mentioned condos and co-ops and you have chosen to ignore that.
I did. Thank you.
Renters need not be long term. I have mentioned condos and co-ops and you have chosen to ignore that.
I haven't. Condos and co-ops are great for those who can find them. Most Manhattan apartments are rentals. It's difficult to find a suitable apartment even without limiting one's choices to condos and co-ops.
It's unlikely that the number of condos and co-ops will not increase if rent control is eliminated.
I certainly am simplifying.
Whether I'm oversimplifying depends on how deeply you read into my comments.
Rent control is more than just a long-term lease; it is legislative interference with the free market economy.
There are countless examples of legislative interference with the free market economy. Do you argue against all of them or just the ones that happen not to benefit you personally?
We don't have a free market economy at all. We have, at best, a very crude approximation of one.
A tenant who is interested in making improvements might well be able to negotiate a ten or even fifteen year lease (with the concommitant obligation to remain there for that entire duration), whereas rent control relieves the tenant of the obligation to remain for any long fixed amount of time (yearly renewals, perhaps) but yet permits the tenant to remain for a lifetime without paying anything close to market rents the longer they remain. In that latter scenario, the landlord is being unfairly deprived of the potential for higher rental income (not just from those tenants who have made improvements but from any long-term tenant).
The landlord is not being unfairly deprived of anything, because the landlord was aware of rent control before he became a landlord. Rent control is no more unfair than building code. A landlord is also deprived of income by not being permitted to rent an apartment with no heat. Is that unfair?
One could argue that rent control was unfair to the landlords who were landlords when the law was first enacted. Most of them are dead by now. Perhaps we should compensate their heirs. Why would we compensate a group of people who happen to share the same business?
Well, we are off topic at this point, but just to add, what is "Rent Control" was done away with in the 70's. While there are many "rent controlled" appartments still in NYC, most do now fall under "Rent Stabilization", which was enacted in the 70's, so perhaps there are not quite as many "dead" landlords "pre-rent stabilization" than it would appear from "rent control" landlords pre WWII.
Rent control is no more unfair than building code. A landlord is also deprived of income by not being permitted to rent an apartment with no heat. Is that unfair?
That's a bit extreme, I'm afraid. Heat is a necesity to live. Rent Regulations are not. Building codes protect lives and safety, rent regulation does not.
Perhaps we should compensate their heirs. Why would we compensate a group of people who happen to share the same business?
Alright David, we are grasping at straws here with that one.....
AIUI, rent stabilization is a relaxed form of rent control. Landlords in the 70's were not deprived of anything that they had in the 60's.
That's a bit extreme, I'm afraid. Heat is a necesity to live. Rent Regulations are not. Building codes protect lives and safety, rent regulation does not.
Irrelevant. Both rent control and building codes limit what a property owner may do with his property. To those who argue that rent control is wrong because it limits what a property owner may do with his property, then building codes are just as wrong.
Alright David, we are grasping at straws here with that one.....
No I'm not. Government-imposed restrictions are only potentially unfair to those affected when they're first imposed or made more stringent. You think the landlords when rent control was enacted were treated unfairly? Then their heirs are the people to compensate. Rent control isn't unfair to current landlords because rent control has always been a cost of doing business to current landlords.
Relevant. Looking at it from the perspective of a free market, requiring heat in an apartment is a restriction on the market. However it is one that protects the lives of people. Rent control does not.
Actually the building code only requires the heat to be raised to 55°. I guess that's comfortable for an Inuit.
And it's well above the minimum necessary to prevent death.
Here I think you go too far if you define temporary residents as all renters. If the reference is just to those who plan to be out of Mnahattan within the next decade or so then its plausible but not otherwise.
Does anyone know what the turnover rate is along the SAS route espacially the 63rd to 125th Street segment?
I'm saying just the opposite. With rent control, many renters are here for the long haul. Without rent control, renting long-term becomes impractical, so rentals fill up with temporary residents.
Does anyone know what the turnover rate is along the SAS route espacially the 63rd to 125th Street segment?
I don't know. You could probably figure it out by looking through the Census website, but I'm not about to spend the time.
I recently ran into a friend of mine from college who I hadn't seen since we graduated. She's a transportation engineer, working on a subway project. She lives near 2nd Avenue (below 63rd). She's opposed to the SAS because it will bring out the rats.
When I first heard her say this, I was horrified -- but it makes perfect sense, since she'll surely be gone long before it opens, so she doesn't gain anything from having to put up with the rats. (Frankly, I'd be surprised if she's still in the city to see the rats come out.)
Percentage of units where the householder moved in before 1970:
0-3.9%(of the residences in the tract); 4-8.6%; 8.7-13.9%; 14-19.1%; and 19.2-32.4% (i.e., none of the darkest colored tracts had more than 32.4% of their householders move in before 1970).
And percentage of units where householde moved in between 1999 and March 2000: 0-11.3; 11.4-18.2; 18.3-27.1; 27.2-41.2; 41.3-96.7.
If someone will tell me (Dave P?) how to upload a .gif somewhere, I'll do so. Email me not here but at fram@tmail.com.
P.S. This is profoundly on-topic. Wait till you see it.
Before 1970:
1999-2000:
10021 5-Digit ZCTA: 62.4
10028 5-Digit ZCTA: 61.3
Manhattan: 60.1
Brooklyn: 37.8
United States: 16.4
Nassau County: 12.0
(10021 and 10028 are Upper East Side ZIP codes.)
This reinforces what we already know: People leave Manhattan for the suburbs to raise families. The majority of Manhattan's housing stock is incompatible with most people's familial goals, and the assurance of an affordable rental unit hardly puts a dent in the biological urge to procreate.
So there shouldn't be heavy opposition anywhere. The transients on the UES will never even notice the SAS being built; it won't be more disruption than the average new high rise construction (which is already considerable disruption).
Absolutely. But a project should not be held hostage to a few homeowners' ignorance about what does or does not affect home values, and their use of NIMBY as a proxy for racial prejudice. Rant and complain, get legitimate concerns addressed, and then move on with your life.
Yes, sometimes a NIMBY can be an asshole of the first degree.
Close but not quite.
Your paying a few hundred thousand dollars for your house gives you the right to a house, that's all.
Actually living in a neighborhood is what gives you have your voice heard.
Renters have as much a right to vote as homeowners. And a property owner who lives elsewhere has no right to vote wherever he owns property.
It might, but people pay extra to live in the better neighborhood. Why do you think the same house in Manhattan Beach costs far more than one in Coney Island, only a couple of miles away?
When an undesirable project is erected in a neighborhood, the owners of the land where the new facility is situated get bought out, the neighbors get the shaft.
Property ownership should include partial ownership of the surrounding environment. If the city wants to build a homeless shelter in a neighborhood, fine, but they have to "buy" the better neighborhood from the shelter's neighbors instead of stealing it.
For the same reason that a rental apartment in Manhattan Beach costs far more than one in Coney Island.
When an undesirable project is erected in a neighborhood, the owners of the land where the new facility is situated get bought out, the neighbors get the shaft.
Yes, they do -- whether those neighbors own or rent.
Property ownership should include partial ownership of the surrounding environment.
Those protections come with residency, not with property ownership.
Our basic government-citizen interface is at the residency level. One votes where one lives, not where one owns land.
If the city wants to build a homeless shelter in a neighborhood, fine, but they have to "buy" the better neighborhood from the shelter's neighbors instead of stealing it.
A homeless shelter isn't itself a problem -- it's some of the common consequences of opening a homeless shelter that can be problematic. The city should have to ensure that those consequences don't occur, unless the nearby residents waive their rights (perhaps in exchange for cash).
Irrelevant to my point.
Those protections come with residency, not with property ownership.
Even if the owner doesn't live on the property, surrounding environment still affects property values. People aren't going to pay the same high rent if the neighborhood goes downhill.
Our basic government-citizen interface is at the residency level. One votes where one lives, not where one owns land.
The votes of people near an undesirable project are outnumbered by the votes of residents elsewhere who will reap the benefits but won't have to live with its ill effects.
it's some of the common consequences of opening a homeless shelter that can be problematic.
How is that possible? Homeless people are often seedy people that do seedy things.
Doesn't matter. My precise point is that what is guaranteed is not the preservation of an investment but the preservation of a livable neighborhood. If you fear that the neighborhood you live in is going downhill, you can threaten to oust your elected officials. If you fear that an investment two states away is losing value, tough. Investments come with risks, and the government doesn't provide immunity from this one. If you're not prepared to take a risk, don't invest.
The votes of people near an undesirable project are outnumbered by the votes of residents elsewhere who will reap the benefits but won't have to live with its ill effects.
But those residents elsewhere have different elected officials. The job of your elected officials is to please the residents specifically of your neighborhood.
The homeless shelter is going to go somewhere, yet there is a way to keep everyone happy: money.
How is that possible? Homeless people are often seedy people that do seedy things.
In this case you're probably right, but I still insist on my formulation, because yours leads to all sorts of counterproductive zoning requirements. Stores cause crime, they say, so don't put any stores anywhere near my house -- and we thereby feed car dependency, not because the free market prefers car dependency but because the law now mandates it. But what if stores really don't cause crime, or the crime they cause is offset by the increased presence of people in the neighborhood, even when most of the residents are off at work or are asleep? In my formulation, the city need only guarantee that crime rates don't increase -- perhaps by increasing police presence in the area until it's clear that the stores in question aren't causing crime to begin with, and then phasing them out.
But those residents elsewhere have different elected officials. The job of your elected officials is to please the residents specifically of your neighborhood.
Those different elected officials still serve on a legislative body that makes decisions that affect you, your representatives opinion, even if it serves you can be outnumbered by all the others.
Choosing another representative doesn't work as well (if it would anyway) when an elected official serves for four years and the state constitution doesn't provide for recall like western states generally do.
...we thereby feed car dependency.
Some people want to be dependent on their cars. I wouldn't mind that if they paid for their use with appropriate fees.
Or place shelters whenever possible in nonresidential neighborhoods.
"Our Town" apparently no longer has a website, so I can't provide a link. Sorry about that.
But you have to keep doing it. Don't let a few people hijack the rest of the neighborhood. The elected officials from the area understand what their constituents want, but repeating the message never hurts. Complacency is BAD.
MTA's construction of the 63-125 segment will help the cause if construction is largely hassle-free.
The other thing that will help? When ESA opens in 2010, pressure on the Lex will increase yet again. As the LIRR's new service approaches, the few NIMBYS who make noise will get run over. This isn't the LaGuardia project. Too many people want it.
This is solvable, by a)sufficiently compensating the business so the owner doesn't care anymore; b) putting the entrance on a sidewalk and modifying the sidewalk, if need be.
These are details which are open for discussion.
It's early in the engineering process, and objections like this can be dealt with. Besides, it will be years before a given business actually faces that possibility, so Maloney can say whatever she wants right now without hurting anything. For the record, she has supported the SAS, so I wouldn't complain about her too much at this point. She has a good relationship with the Manhattan Borough Prez, who wants the subway.
I think there are some people in the Bronx who would like to have a word with you...
Eminent Domain says you need to pay the government's assessment of fair market value for the property when you take it away from the owner. If you're an owner, good luck getting what it's actually worth, much less what it may be worth to YOU.
The government always overpays for property, relative to what it can be paid for in the private market.
(This is solvable, by a)sufficiently compensating the business so the owner doesn't care anymore; b) putting the entrance on a sidewalk and modifying the sidewalk, if need be.)
You are assuming that this "issue" isn't just a stalking horse for something else.
The problem is, whether you're talking about the SAS or most other contentious issues, even things as diverse as abortion and gun control, the "anti's" tend to be far more vehement in their opposition than the "pro's" are in their support.
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Another interesting take on the future of passenger rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Passenger
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Nice to see so many people out in auto-land discovering Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Western
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Go Gunn! Nothing produced revenue sitting broken in a yard. I wonder if Amtrak should have some sort of car sponsoring/naming programme to try to bring in some more repair $$.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Ten
: (
Train rolls in, signaling end to Louisville-to-Indy trips
Mark
wayne
The truth is that, for most americans, the passing of Amtrak would merely be a sad day, reported as the last story on the world news as the day the once-vaunted American long distance train died, not really important in the larger commerical transportation scheme. Railfans, people who don't like to fly, and the elderly (I dunno, just seems like the three groups I see most often, sometimes one person covers all three :]), would all take a grevious hit, but would recover eventually. We would lose the use of a massive rail transportation system, which comes unlike the highway system, largely free of all cost, outside maitenance. Most places in America would hardly notice the passing of america, no doubt greyhound or some other bus operator would step up and fill the roll of providing distant rural transportation, while the states or cities took over the largest passenger terminals providing commuter service. No doubt the NEC (possibly including Harrisburg, Newport News and Maine), Empire Corridor (I suppose to Toronto), Chicago Corridor, Amtrak California stuff, and the Cascades would be saved, and operated by the states with similar government funding as before, except now it'd come through a slighly different source.
Fortunately for Gunn, he's operating in Washington DC, where everything, even the laws of physics, is what you say it is. All he has to do is keep saying that America needs trains in a manner that convinces the congresspeople and he's good to go. Of course the challenge there is that it's kinda hard to convince people from states that don't even see rail service that their consitituents will see some sort of fall off in their quality of life if they don't back pro-Amtrak legislation.
I wish Gunn a lot of luck, he's doing a pretty good job, but he needs to work on Amtrak's operations, making them more passenger-friendly, this isn't the 1940s anymore, railroads can't dictate terms to the passengers, because then they'll just hop in the car for the nearest airport.
"Fortunately for Gunn, he's operating in Washington DC, where everything, even the laws of physics, is what you say it is. All he has to do is keep saying that America needs trains in a manner that convinces the congresspeople and he's good to go. Of course the challenge there is that it's kinda hard to convince people from states that don't even see rail service that their consitituents will see some sort of fall off in their quality of life if they don't back pro-Amtrak legislation."
You have it backwards. Yes, there are rail advocates who do that, but Amtrak's main problem (or opportunity? depends on your point of view) is that Representatives and Senators refuse to cut pet trains running through their home districts even if only two people (the engineer and conductor) are riding them.
The elected officials are responsible to their constituents. Evidently their constituents want rail service, or at least the jobs that go along with it.
That would give the trains a certain NASCAR look...maybe they could introduce it on trains that serve racetracks, like those that go to Daytona, or the special trains that run to Dover, DE on race days, and the sponsors would be the sponsors of big name racers..."Hey Earl, I'm riding in the Jeff Gordon car!"
: )
Mark
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The question is, will this mean more of the same delays w/ just an excuse or an oppurtunity for more delays.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#UP
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Their first recomendation was that MTBA exit the market entirely and stop screwing up their money making freight trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#CSXrecommends
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Their first recomendation was that MTBA exit the market entirely and stop screwing up their money making freight trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#WMATA
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Nice to see new track being laid, too bad its in Texas.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#BNSF
In 1961 I went over the station for a week, in a photographic essay. I used an 8X10 large format camera. I still have all the negatives, and as soon as I get them cleaned I will attempt to get them online. When it comes to Penn Station I could care less who steals my pictures, I just want to generate awareness of what we loss.
Very well put. The first time I was in Penn Station, it almost felt like you were outdoors in the platform waiting area, thanks to the filtered natural light coming in from the vast glass ceiling. It was hard to see the ceiling, thanks partly to dirt, but also to smoke from the dining car fires coming from below. It was just awesome.
On the less pleasant side, the entrance gallery from 7th Avenue (at street level in those days) was like a roman ruins. High ceilinged, but dark and dirty. The many once-fine shops that lined it were closed and their walls and windows filthy. But this didn't detract from the magnificence of going down to the ticketing area, which is now the waiting room.
It really was sad in October of 1963 when the station got the recking ball... I'll admit, it was dirty (probably the main reason for destroying it)
The reason for Penn Station's destruction is dismally depressing. The developers wanted a large space to build the new MSG. It could just as well have been built in the two blocks south of Penn (29th to 31st Streets) with all the crappy little commercial buildings that were there at the time. But Penn Station had a special attraction. Two in fact. First, PRR already had the legal permission to close 32nd Street between 7th and 8th, so there was no wrangling with city officials to close 30th, as would have been necessary if the MSG was located there, and second (and most important), the developers could deal with a single willing entity (PRR) to negotiate the property purchase, instead of dozens of stubborn commercial landlords at the alternate location.
I am confident that if Penn Station had made it to the 70's or 80's it would have at least been saved, and then more recently undergone a spectacular renovation like it's cousin on 42nd St. Out of the two, I think Penn was the more spectacular building. Not that I would want Grand Central gone, but Penn was probably the one that should have survived. But thank goodness that at the very least Grand Central is still with us, and shinier and more polished than ever:
I'm just sorry I can't post a photo of the glorious renovation of the old Pennsylvania Station, next to the spectacular job they did at Grand Central.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes, standing on the stairs and looking down at the PM rush hour of the main room is awesome. The hustle and bustle is overwhelming. I must go back there and observe it more and take more photos. :)
Yes, the station is still there, but the character has changed since it is now only a commuter station.
Gone are the families waiting expectantly at a gate to catch the first sight of a loved one arriving, or waiting with someone who was leaving, and walking to the train with him or her, so see the person into his stateroom or seat. Gone too, is the really crowded main hall, which you had to push your way through, using the features high in the station to retain your orientation if you were not taller than most of the crowd, and with long lines formed at each ticket window (and not just one or two windows open). Gone too are the Redcaps following a passenger with a baggage cart that looked like a modified refrigerator dolly piled high with luggage. Back in those days, no civilized traveler would attempt a trip with nothing more than one light suitcase and a carry on bag.
Tom
Larry, RedbirdR33
Can the PRR really be blamed? While its failure was still several years off, based on what I've understood the company was in very bad financial shape in the early 1960's. The original Penn Station may have been a white elephant it could no longer afford, as may be evidenced by the station's poor condition in its final years. Moreover, the idea of using a station's extra space for useful commercial purposes - think DC Union Station - did not exist at the time.
Today it's easy to look back and say that Penn Station's demolition was a disgrace, but at the time, things weren't so cut and dried.
This brings up another historical question.
Was there ever through electric service from New Jersey to Long Island (Brooklyn or Queens) as part of the original 600 V DC electrification on the PRR and the LIRR. The DD1 locomotives were the first electrics.
Electrification made the original Pennsylvania Station a reality.
No there was not. While the PRR held a controlling interest in the LIRR it managed it as a completely separate company. It was more closely integrated with the H&M (now PATH) than it was the Long Island.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why is it that people try to pass off lies as truth on Subtalk? And the Weimar Republic WAS Germany!
Of course, the following day I rode on the subway for the first time. A red-letter date in my life if there ever was one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So don't despair...too much. There is much to admire right now.
With the Hoboken / ferry routing it's like, a whole `nother dynamic. Especially, especially on say, snowy nights. That trip across the dark river, to the brightly-lit riverfront railroad terminal...marvelous.
That sounds really nice. Next winter I will be sure to try that out. Thanks for telling me. And thanks for telling us how you feel about Hoboken. Even its waiting room is really nice. And you get to walk so close to the trans without getting hassled. Overall, Hoboken is just a really magical place. And because of these reasons, and because I have many great memories of Hoboken from "Hoboken Festivals" past, I have to admit that I like Hoboken the best of all the NYC terminals. Oh and the PATH (H&M) station underneath makes it even more extra special and magical. the H&M station is mystical!
But Hoboken is definitely a nice building and worth looking at, as is the former Jersey Central terminal in Liberty State Park.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a beautiful structure that affords some good train watching.
2) When both Bergen tubes are in use, is one designated for inbound trains and the ohter for outbound, or is it more akin to the East river where each tube (on the Manhattan side at least) has an innie and an outie?
There is a "Triumph" series of books (5 in total, I think) that cover the Pennsylvania Railroad; I bought Triumph V (whose full name I can't recall because the book is at home and I'm in the office); this book covers the Pennsylvania Railroad's extension into NYC and the building of Penn Station.
--Mark
Something else >Anon E Mouse why would anyone who lived in Poughkeepsie go ALL THE WAY to Penn Station to get a Chicago train? You coulda boarded an even BETTER train at nearby Harmon! :-D
Seriously, we did ride the Century on a couple of occasions. But the clientéle of the two trains was different. The Century was the train of the nouveau riche, the movie stars, the folks who liked to flaunt their wealth, whereas the Broadway was the train of those who were secure in their position, the folks who enjoyed luxury without having to wave a flag and say "look at me". On the Broadway the train was the star. Mother was a musician who shunned the spotlight when she was not on stage, and she could do that on the Broadway; not so on the Century, where she was likely to be known to other passengers on board. And her purpose in riding the train (besides her distaste for flying) was to escape the attention that might otherwise have come her way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you want to see a kickass view of Concourse yard, Go to the northern point of the southbound platform(Around where the wall ends) at Sunset or sunrise. Don't go too far back or you'll be subject to the stentch of urine. The only problem is theres a few rowdy teenagers who hangs around downstairs or on the platforms.
It was cool being able to walk over to Concourse yards in minutes. I used to do this often at the end of the PM rush hour when you could see some train movement.
Good luck.
Wayne
Still a bargain, in my opnion.
The Big Dig is an invaluable project. I don't know what it looks like during weekday peak hours - I'm sure traffic is still slow - but I drive through Boston quite a bit on weekends, and even with only the northbound tunnel open, I've noticed a significant improvement in traffic flow. I used to bypass 93 entirely on Mass Ave; no more! Plus, the unsightly viaduct will be removed from Boston's waterfront.
The only mistake, IMO, and it's a BIG mistake, was deleting the North-South rail link.
Is it worth the price tag? Of course, that's arguable...
Even the Big Dig doesn't beat my favorite waste of money, Rhode Island's Jamestown-Verrazano Bridge. Not the project was unneeded - the old two-lane steel bridge was way under capacity, not to mention about to fall down - but I have a postcard of it that proudly boasts, "The Jamestown-Verrano Bridge opened to traffic on October 12, 1992, after years of delays and millions of dollars in cost overruns!" The project, IIRC, began in 1968, and the bridge underwent a major repair project in 2002. What more can you expect from a state that uses federal highway funds to build a shopping mall?
yes I just typed the wrong subject.
Your other point, though, is very well taken. $86M in the scope of things is a pimple on an elephant's butt. Similar to recent comments made on this board regarding the general public's lack of scientific sophistication, the general public is also quite innumerate. Too many people have no concept of the difference between $86 million and $86 billion -- and that lack of understanding creeps too easily into policy discussions and the press reporting thereof.
CG
I'm excited, this will be a beautiful site compared to the piece of junk that stood there for so many years. SEPTA will restore the old building for posterity and use it for ???
Chuck Greene
I sincerely applaud your efforts! This sounds very exciting, and I wish I could be there for it. Alas, I live in NYC, and the event is taking place right at the beginning of my Sabbath. But I will be there in spirit, and I hope you will be able to join us for similar events next year in NYC, like when the north side of the Manny B reopens.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
See you soon,
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
You can find the photos at
Here are some samples.
The South Portal of the Rockhill Tunnel
The mid-tunnel exhaust shaft
And DAVIS interlocking, looking north. Note the new concrete ties installed for the R2 service to Newark.
A fictitious scenario:
Let's suppose that they have to close the F tracks at the Bergen Street Interlocking for the weekend, due to the ongoing construction.
There was a service change similar to this not too long ago, but now let's also throw in a closing of BOTH F tracks at York Street so that they can do an inspection of the station following the recent fire.
In this fictitious scenario, how would YOU route the trains?
This is the best I could come up with for this imaginary weekend change. Two ideas:
Idea # 1
F trains: Run on the G from Queens Plaza to Bergen Street, LOCAL in Queens.
G trains: Don't run, see above.
Q trains: Extended to Forest Hills, LOCAL in Queens, via 63rd Street Tunnel
R trains: Run from Times Square to 95th Street
D trains: Extended to Delancey Street making local F stops, turning past Delancey.
Express Shuttle Bus Service from Delancey Street to Jay Street and Bergen Street.
Local Shuttle Bus Service from Delancey Street to East Broadway, York Street, Jay Street and Bergen Street.
Idea # 2
F split from 179 Street to Euclid Avenue and Bedford-Nostrand Aves to Avenue X.
C service suspended, A trains local from 168 to Canal, F trains make C stops from Jay to Euclid.
Wow, have I complicated myself.... *sweatdrops*.... uh, any comments or better suggestions??
... which leaves angry passengers at Broadway Lafayette, 2nd Av, Delancey, East Broadway and York ...
[Expletive!]
I hope you all don't mind me asking this curious question... I always like to figure out subway reroutes in my head for some reason or another... maybe to relieve stress???
F: Run in 2 sections:
Section 1: 179th Street to East Broadway OR Euclid Avenue via 8th Avenue south of W4th and Fulton Street Local
Section 2: 4th Avenue to Coney Island
Shuttle buses between Jay Street, Hoyt Street, and 4th Avenue
C: 168th Street to WTC
At Bergen, which tracks are forbidden from use? All 4 or just the upper level? If I can use Bergen Lower, let me know but that isn't much easier than if the entire thing is closed.
I say, extend the B51 to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and you're all set.
C: Route unchanged, but extra service to accomodate diverted F passengers. Optionally, divert the C extras (with very clear announcements and signage) to 6th Avenue between Columbus Circle and W4 in both directions.
F: 179th Street to 2nd Avenue only. Single-track shuttle between 2nd Avenue and East Broadway.
G: Continental Avenue to Avenue X. Manhattan passengers can transfer at Hoyt to the A/C.
J: Jamaica Center to Fulton Street. If possible, run extra service between Essex and Fulton.
4: Local both directions between Union Square and Brooklyn Bridge, to accomodate increased traffic between the F and A/C.
Shuttle bus: York to Jay (and possibly to either Bergen or Hoyt).
Free entry to Broadway-Lafayette.
That should cover everything, I think.
More changes would only confuse passengers
Run free shuttle buses, in this scenario an express bus serving 2nd Avenue, Delancey Street, Jay Street and Bergen Street, and a local bus serving the above plus East Broadway and York.
Extend the J to Fulton as well, and you're all set. Then passengers will be able to transfer to the A or C.
Passengers from the Culver have to change at Hoyt for Manhattan
Jay St haves A/C service.
Do E Bway and York have many passengers at weekend?
Since the M9 passes E Bway and connects to other subway stations, it
only must run more often.
In the near of York St run 3 bus lines only walk of few minutes away.
These lines also connect to other subway stations.
So a shuttle bus is not needed.
F trains on the G, Queens Plaza to Bergen (no G service).
D trains run to Delancey Street. (or D to 2nd Avenue and a single-track shuttle to East Broadway would work, as David suggested.)
Split R service: Forest Hills to Whitehall via 63rd Street; Chambers on the M to 95th Street.
Done.
Here is the description for the New York Subway Decision Maker Group:
Did you ever wish you could be in charge of making short term or long term changes to the New York City Subway System, one of the largest subway systems in the world? Add new subway lines? Discontinue subway service? Permanently reroute service? This is the forum where you can make your ideas, opinions and criticisms known. Members can also bring up fictitious scenarios and ask other Members how they would reroute subway service.... how would you reroute trains if construction work took out both tracks on a section of the F line for the weekend? What if a train derailment suspends all service along Queens Boulevard? Post your opinions about these and more fictitious scenarious here.
The group is located at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nysdm/
I don't mean to be an ogar, but everyone who joins this group will have to agree to a Zero Tolerance TOS/SPAM Policy before posting. More information will be available when you join.
Thanks!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_2689.jpg
The commuter rail lines' endpoints are the destinations. Some trains short turn. To see which they are, look at the schedules THAT CAN BE FOUND HERE.
No problems have been noted on Adam Paul's site, which has an active BBS as well
Bill "Newkirk"
On August 1 the "42nd St - The Musical" MetroCard will be available at the TM Store at GCT, The Ford Theater Gift shop and select MVMs.
The card will be good for 30% off tickets to 42nd St.
How do we find out where those "select" MVM's are located ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You can ask random strangers to turn their cards over, but they'll probably call the cops.
Or you can lie down on the floor next to an MVM, but they'll definitely call the cops.
My Favorite Pic!
3 Train Posing Perfectly For a Pic
East 105 St. Station Sign
J Train Standing Tall and Proud
A Pic of the Junius St Station
An L Train Exiting the Livonia St. Station
Nice Pic of an L R-143 Train
M Train Escaping When I Took Too Many Pics lol (Thanks to the T/O who slowed down to let me take a pic)
M Train Standing Tall and Proud
Floor View of the S Train with Onlookers
R-62a Car 1979 on the 3 Line
R-62 Car 1430 on the 3 Line
Dorment S Train At Prospect Avenue
Also, I have to admit, you can just see the the orange tag under the number plate on the right side of the car.
Had the pleasure of riding one #1454 on the "3" yesterday. It was definately different from riding an R62A on the "3". The R62 was a hell of alot darker than the R62A, but the ride was alot smoother and quieter than the R62A.
"CSX recommends MBTA add tracks
Jacksonville-based CSX recommended last week a $20 million to $30 million project to add yard tracks which could enable the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority to add two more midday trains to the westernmost stops on the Boston-Worcester line.
At State House hearings in Boston on July 7 and 8, CSX, which owns the tracks between Framingham and Worcester, presented representatives of the Central Massachusetts Caucus and the MBTA with a capacity study that called for construction of 6.5 miles of new track.
22 track miles are involved between the two cities, from CP 21 where CP Yard, North Yard, and Nevens Yard are located (Nevens is at milepost 21.7), and CP 43, marking Worcester Yard.
According to the CSX “Worcester Service Expansion Study,” the tracks between Worcester and Boston are now at full capacity for both passenger and freight trains, Metro West Daily News reported on July 10.
It is 24 miles from South Station to CP 21. CSX property begins at CP 3.
To maintain the existing quality of service without causing more delays, CSX recommended the MBTA construct the new yard tracks in both Framingham and Worcester.
“This would allow us to move trains around without putting them on the main track,” said MBTA spokesperson Joe Pesaturo.
It also would allow the MBTA to increase the number of roundtrip weekday trains from 10 to 12 at the five stops farthest west – Ashland, Southborough, Westborough, Grafton and Worcester. In contrast, the MBTA operates 20 roundtrip trains between Boston and Framingham each weekday.
“The capacity study provides sobering information, but the reality is that the rail infrastructure is outdated and does not meet existing passenger and freight demands,” said state Rep. Karyn Polito (R), who is House co-chairman of the Central Massachusetts Caucus.
“It is imperative that all local, state and federal officials work collaboratively... with the MBTA and CSX to make improvements to the rail a priority.”
If the MBTA decides to expand, funding will be required to initiate engineering and environmental feasibility studies, Polito said.
CSX recommended the MBTA further investigate the possibility of expanded service by conducting a preliminary engineering study to better estimate the costs of the project, which could be up to $30 million, said CSX spokesman Brian Sullivan.
“It’s not a number that has a science behind it that says we’ve done detailed engineering,” Sullivan said.
High costs are expected because the construction areas may pose challenging obstacles, including environmental issues and land acquisition.
The possibility of wetlands in Framingham and excavation of ledge areas in Worcester also could add to the project’s cost, Polito said.
The MBTA hopes to hire an engineering firm in three to six months, Pesaturo said.
Business leaders in the region support increased rail service from Worcester to Boston.
“There’s people that need to go in at different times, and if there’s not enough trains available, it’s not going to be of much use to them,” said Barbara Clifford, executive director of the Corridor Nine Chamber of Commerce, which includes Westborough, Southborough, Northborough and Shrewsbury.
“From trying to ease the congestion on the roads and serve people that may have a reverse commute, there’s so many reasons that it would make good sense to be able to have more (trains),” Clifford said."
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I'm also in cohoots with other unnamed subtalkers in planning a Philadelphia SubTalk Field Trip. The date has not yet been chosen, and neither has the itinerary, but I'd like to hit the subways, the els, and high speed line, the trolleys, and the subway-surface. Basically, everything but the regional rail, and I hope that's doable in one day. Also let me know if you would be interested in this.
The driving forces behind these two trips are that:
1) I've never been on many of the lines and services I just listed
2) I now have some vacation days to use!
Can't wait to do these trips!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Sean
Temple Univeristy
Mark
I've seen this at 4th Ave for weeks. Is it policy?
"I've seen this at 4th Ave for weeks. Is it policy?"
Absolutely not. Trip goes in the base. The red flag improperly inserted in the base (without the trip) will not stop a train and does not protect the workers.
Why aren't these contractors worried that they could be hurt?
Not that I expect anyone's opinion to change.
If the rule is for the trip to go in the base, then why aren't these guys putting the trips in the base?
Recent past - track workers who died because they didn't follow the rules.
Unique view of R-40M <Q&RT; between Newkirk & Ave H
What the...?!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I wonder if they still use that depot/shop track? I also wonder why they take such poor care of the yard tracks. The wooden planks beneath the rails are just sitting on the grass and concrete! Seems like an accident waiting to happen.
(Middle) Nice shot if the R40M via Brighton express.
(Bottom) That one is very mysterious indeed :-0, what was the car #?
About a block and a half down the street we see an el line with a train passing on an intersecting street. The entire movie was supposedly
filmed in New York.
Since the storyline is about Coney Island, is this scene really in Brooklyn? Does anyone know the el line, the train, or the street shown in
the scene?
Any help would be appreciated!
I think you have set a Sub Talk record. Usually duplicate posts are just split seconds apart. It is 33 hours, 7 minutes and 6+ seconds since you posted Post #530706. This is the longest time ever between an original and duplicate post that I have ever seen. (Sorry I have not yet seen the movie.) :-)
Tom
I did not want to believe that I was the only one here who saw the movie, and thought, as they used to say in "CB" that I had better "10/9" my last transmission.
Thanks for the response!
Thanks you for the info!
Even after all these years away, whenever I see a NY subway scene in a film, I still ask myself...
Where was that picture taken?
I see from my book that Andie MacDowell is in it. I don't know how I missed seing it years ago. I'll watch for it.
Where was that picture taken?
And the answer is usually Toronto ;^)
--Your fox in the hole, Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Mystical chix on an R-160 at 76th Street?
SENSORY OVERLOAD!!!!!
Systems shutting down........
You caught Sea Beach Fred riding the Pelham Line and liked it so much he traded it for his ol' favorite in Brooklyn?!!
You found an MP-41 hidden in an unused subway tunnel?
Inquiring minds need to know!
::rimshot::
The last one is the closest..........
What, did you guys find the lost 1800's steam engine behind the wall in abandoned LIRR Atlantic tunnel? ...Or did you really fins the R110 or R160s on the Dyre Ave express tracks>
The moderately big news is that it's on the end track, where it's remotely visible to passing photographers.
I'm easily excited, sorry. :(
Peace
David
til next time
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace
David
Peace
David
http://www.geocities.com/ripta42/jan2728/cr40.jpg
If you look at the picture or the current 4260, you can see the exact shape of where the current 4260 got the nose of the old 4260, inthe weld lines
At least to my untrained eyes, the R-38's appear in much better shape than the R-44's.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=457700
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=457903
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=527072
I would not be surprised if the huge fleet of R32's are the last to go.
Whenever the day comes for the R32s to be retired, I will truly be saddened.
R.I.P.
R32
Born: October 1964 Died: December 2007
Just think, 2 years from now, we'll be all over the (A) and (C) lines watching for the disappearance of R-38 cars, and all over the B/D/N/W (whichever get slants) watching for the dwindling of R-40's. Just out of curiosity...since they don't have asbestos, where will they go to be scrapped?
Sniff, sniff, or the "Farewell to the R42 (and the railfan window) on the Eastern Division"
No, It's Flushing Ave.
wayne
welcome back!
wayne
I saw that car yesterday while taking the F Shuttle Bus last saturday.
How'd you manage to get a shot that wide without getting the fence in your way?
wayne
wayne
Peace
David
wayne
wayne
til next time
Was I dreaming ? I could swear this subway/Airtrain building is air conditioned. If this is so, it's the only air conditioned fare controls on the TA !
The fare gates have fare card swipers on both sides. One for entry on the subway and one for entry to Airtrain. Another first seems to be MVM's on both sides of the fare gates. All of them were covered with clear plastic and not turned on.
When Airtrain starts running, and Metrocard is the mode of fare media, I assume your regular pay per ride Metrocard can be used. However, we'll see if the unlimiteds and funpasses can be used or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
They will sell special monthly metrocards at $40 for the Howard Beach to Airport and Jamaica to Airport portions of the trip.
The rest of the trip will be free. No fare will be charged at the parking lot.
Don't try to walk it. The subway tracks separate airport property from the rest of the world. The nearest track crossunder is at N. Conduit, but the first access point to the airport parking lot from the north is way out at Lefferts.
Get used to the Q10 and B15.
Unless they demolish the entrance to the long term parking lot from the Manhattan-bound A train platform, you will be able to get off there, and hoof it to the first airtrain stop. That airtrain stop is right next to the toll gates to the long term parking lot. You can walk there. It's the same damn lot where the A train is, on the other end of it. The airtrain tracks cut right across it, to the other end of the long term area, where the toll booths are, and the first stop is right there.
And, I'd like to see them try to get rid of the shuttle busses that go around the long term lot, picking people up. You gonna tell me that they're going to make people park all the way at some remote end of that lot (and that lot does get filled from time to time), and make them hoof their luggage all the way to where the airtrain is, near the toll booths? At least the short-term lots near the terminals usually have carts scattered around them. There are no luggage carts at the long term lot.
Wouldn't it be funny if the way it turns out is that you'll be able to avoid coughing up a fiver by simply getting off the subway at the long term area, waiting for a shuttle bus to pick you up, and getting off the shuttle bus three minutes later?
Five bucks? Scroo that. You know, no matter what they do, there'll definitely be a way to get to the airport on a single fare. There will be a way to do it, no doubt about it? Why? Well, they have a lot of low paying, menial jobs at the airport, don't they? Like cleaners, plumbers, and many other menial service jobs. You think those people will be able to afford popping ten bucks a day, to get to work?
I'll bet that many JFK workers come from the Bronx, or the public housing projects in Brooklyn and Manhattan. And that various shifts at the airport start at various random times of the day and night. I wonder if two hours and eighteen minutes will be enough time to transfer to a city bus, if you have to report to work at 3am in the morning.
Last year I had to go to Newark. I kept looking for a way to get there without having my pockets picked until I found it. At first, all I was able to find where a bunch of buses from the Port Authority, or other places, at ten bucks a pop. The monorail rail link, even worse. I kept looking until I found the PATH/Newark city bus connection.
So, they're trying to make the airtrain at JFK the same rip-off as the monorail at Newark. Well, there is a way around that, and I'm sure there'll be a way around the airtrain rip-off at JFK either.
There's another reason why it might be difficult to get rid of the shuttle busses. They make stops on the way to the airport at various places to drop off and pick up workers for all the businesses and organizations that service the airport in some way. Many of the stops are also where the Q10 stops, but not all of them are. Additionally, I'm not sure that Q10's frequency would be sufficient to replace the shuttle busses. And the airtrain stops nowhere near them. I just can't see them getting rid of the shuttle buses.
One of these days try going for a ride on one of the shuttle busses, just for the hell of it, and see where ALL the shuttle bus stops are. You may not see people getting off and on the bus at all those stops, but there are people that do, throughout the day. After that, then ask yourself if getting rid of the shuttle buses seems feasible.
Bingo.
The only access between the Howard Beach subway station and the long term parking lot will be via the AirTrain platform. It didn't occur to me that it was a single station, but no matter -- it will cost $5 to walk from one end of the platform to the other.
I'm sure some of the shuttle buses will still run. It will cost $5 to reach them from the subway.
Five bucks? Scroo that. You know, no matter what they do, there'll definitely be a way to get to the airport on a single fare. There will be a way to do it, no doubt about it? Why? Well, they have a lot of low paying, menial jobs at the airport, don't they? Like cleaners, plumbers, and many other menial service jobs. You think those people will be able to afford popping ten bucks a day, to get to work?
No. Someone posted yesterday that there will be a $40 monthly AirTrain pass. That comes to under a dollar per ride for the everyday commuter. This is yet another example of the occasional traveler subsidizing the everyday traveler for political reasons, a practice which has become all too common lately.
I'm still amazed at how many posters here have fallen for the PA's trickery. Yes, the current shuttle buses are slow and crowded. They're slow and crowded because the PA wants them to be slow and crowded. The subway shuttle buses could run more frequently, could make fewer stops, could have dedicated bus lanes at the terminals -- but the result wouldn't be a cash cow for the PA. So instead, the PA sabotages the shuttle bus service and touts an extravagant new rail line as the solution, even though the rail line offers nothing that a bus route couldn't offer for a lot less money. Notice also how the PA advertises the Q3, Q10, and B15. Q3 to the F train? Q10 to the A and J/Z trains? B15 to the 3 and L trains? No. If you find your way to the bus stop at all, you're told that the Q3 and Q10 go to Queens and the B15 goes to Brooklyn. So much for informing passengers of their other options.
That's not "lately" - that's acceptable practice everywhere. Ride once in a while, and you pay full freight. Ride a lot, and you get a volume discount.
Who else does that?
Commuter railroads
Airlines
The Postal Service and air freight carriers (presorted volume first class is 29 cents a letter vs. 37 cents for those of us who mail one and two at a time).
Hotels (when you reserve a block of rooms each one is cheaper).
"I'm still amazed at how many posters here have fallen for the PA's trickery. Yes, the current shuttle buses are slow and crowded. They're slow and crowded because the PA wants them to be slow and crowded."
No, they're slow and crowded because traffic slows them up and there's no room to do any better.
"So instead, the PA sabotages the shuttle bus service and touts an extravagant new rail line as the solution, even though the rail line offers nothing that a bus route couldn't offer for a lot less money."
The rail line replaces what the MTA could have done but chose not to.
I'm amazed sometimes at the naivete you show when you talk about airport transt. Your preferences are shared by a tiny fraction of airport travelers. You are lamenting that the Greenberger Transportation Authority isn't allowed to implement a plan that you want and virtually no one else does.
But that is not possible at either JFK or LGA. In fact. it would be preposterous to even consider it.
MCI is regarded as sort of a death trap for airlines that try to set up hubs there. Witness Eastern, Braniff, and most recently Vanguard.
It's tough for an airline to be headquartered here.
How ya doin???
(The airport I was thinking of was Cincinnati, which had a correspondingly small local parking load -- because a correspondingly small number of people fly out of there. Delta had the place in a headlock.)
But times are tough for a lot of employers.
I'm still a bit disoriented, though my wife is hailed everywhere she goes as a conquering heroine.
That doesn't change the fact that it's still illegal in this city to try to board NJ Transit, PATH, or the subway anywhere. I'd try, but I know KCPD's decoy squad, posing as Jersey Mike, Railfan Pete and even Dave Pirmann, would pounce and lock me up in a second...
:0)
CG
STL has light rail service right to the terminal. It was pretty much wasted, of course, on people who use the airport solely as a transfer hub.
No, I haven't. Yahoo e-mail recognizes certain things as being spam and puts them into a special "bulk" folder. I routinely delete everything in that folder without even opening it, as I get at least 50 to 75 per day. It's possible that Yahoo somehow flagged your e-mail as spam.
In any event, I don't collect MetroCards. I get one each month as part of my LIRR Mail & Ride ticket.
I've been to the airport so far four times in the last year. I never found the shuttle buses to be crowded. I always had a seat. And, once it gets going, it's not slow at all. The ride from the subway to the terminal is less than ten minutes. It takes about three minutes to circle the long term lot, there's one traffic light after leaving the lot, then about four miles on the expressway before you get to the terminals.
Also, there are SOME dedicated bus lanes. At terminal 3 the bus uses some reserved lanes to navigate underneath the terminal building.
The problem with the shuttle buses is the headways. Last week I got off the A, and the shuttle bus was waiting, but I sat there for almost 20 minutes before the driver got aboard and we left. Meanwhile, there were at least six other buses queued up behind. While I was waiting, I watched as three more buses arrived. They unloaded, and then circled around to the back of the bus queue.
And, no, I'm not going to use the Airtrain, as long as I can help it. I'll use the Q10. After they got rid of the Airlink bus, I refused to get ripped off by the monorail, and began using the Newark local city bus. In my view, although the Airlink charged four bucks, it was worth it. The monorail wasn't, and the airtrain ain't worth the five bucks either.
You know, I almost wish they'd find some major defect in the whole business, and scrap the whole Airtrain deal.
You and I would put up with that, but AirTrain delivers better.
"And, no, I'm not going to use the Airtrain, as long as I can help it. I'll use the Q10."
Good for you. AirTrain did not close off all other options.
"You know, I almost wish they'd find some major defect in the whole business, and scrap the whole Airtrain deal."
I don't have to tell you what I think of emotional reactions like that. Fortunately, the PA followed a rational path.
You and I would put up with that, but AirTrain delivers better.
Actually, AirTrain's spec's - DEIS Sect 2.4 Operation - does not meet the current 10 minute bus ride from Howard Beach Sta to the terminals. It is supposed to take longer.
Let's look at a typical example. Suppose that trains to Howard Beach operate at 20 minute headways. Further suppose the bus is scheduled to leave Howard Beach at 5 minutes after a train arrives and the bus is scheduled to arrive at Howard Beach 5 minutes before the train arrives. Finally, suppose that the AirTrain is operating with "shorter" headways - 10 minutes (5 and 15 minutes before and after "A" train arrivals).
Consider going to the airport. A person arrives at Howard Beach on a train and transfers to the next bus or AirTrain. Total time after arrival is 5 minutes plus the bus or AirTrain travel time. The additional AirTrains leave Howard Beach empty because no "A" train has arrived. Waiting times are identical despite the extra AirTrain.
Consider coming from the airport. The average waiting time to the next bus is 10 minutes. The total time to get onto a city bound "A" train is 10 minutes + bus travel time + 5 minutes waiting time at Howard Beach for a total elapsed time of 15 + bus travel time.
There are two equally likely cases for the AirTrain with "shorter" headways.
The first case assumes that the person gets the AirTrain that is scheduled to "meet" the next city bound train. The average waiting time at the terminal is 5 minutes making the total waiting time: 5 minutes at terminal + AirTrain travel time + 5 minutes wait at Howard Beach or 10 + AirTrain travel time.
The second case assumes that the person gets the AirTrain that is out of phase with the "A" train. The terminal waiting time is still 5 minutes, however the waiting time at Howard Beach is 15 minutes. Thus, the total travel time would be 20 + AirTrain travel time.
The average of the two cases is: 15 + AirTrain travel time.
Comparing the bus and AirTrain total travel times, one sees that there is absolutely no benefit for the hypothetical shorter headway for the AirTrain. One has only traded waiting at the terminal for waiting on the Howard Beach platform.
Transfers from AirTrain to subway or commuter rail at Jamaica will keep passengers out of the rain; from Howard Beach, that is achievable too, depending on whether MTA's rehab job includes extending canopies along the platform. I don't know if that will happen.
The purpose of my example was to show that the "A" train headway determines the trip length and that the AirTrain's headway is immaterial. Shortening AirTrain's headway will not reduce total trip time, once it is equal to the "A" train's headway. You may try various different headways, the result will be the same: there will be no difference in total trip time between the current bus and AirTrain from Howard Beach.
With AirTrain running at 6 minute headways (or even shorter) and MTA being pushed to improve airport service,
There is the matter of money. A 10-car "A" train costs $64.70/revenue-mile to operate. You are hinting at 6 minute headways instead of the current 20 minutes. Suppose the extra trains ran short - from 59th St to Howard Beach - approximately 15 miles. The difference is 10 trains per hour rather than 3 trains per hour. The additional 7 trains per hour each way would cost $13,587 per hour. The increased daily cost would be $180,696, assuming that this increased schedule would operate 8 hours per day. The DEIS projects that the daily number of trips through Howard Beach will be 3,940. That amounts to an operating cost of $45.86 for each passenger for the level of service you envision. You made a big point regarding your assertion that AirTrain's $5 fare could be justified by not having outside subsidies. Who will subsidize the TA for the extra $43.86 for each passenger it will cost it to operate at the service level you demand? You're right - $5 is a bargain compared to the nearly $44 you want to somebody else to subsidize subway operations to Howard Beach.
Transfers from AirTrain to subway or commuter rail at Jamaica will keep passengers out of the rain
AirTrain will not provide any time savings for the traveller over the existing bus connection. The travel time is longer and the waiting time is the same. One can buy a lot of bus shelter for AirTrain's $1.2 billion price tag.
You're way overstating the cost of running more trains to Howard Beach.
First, typical headway weekdays, evenings, and weekends is currently 16 minutes, not 20.
The obvious way to double the trains to HB is to divert Lefferts As to HB and extend the C to Lefferts at all times except late nights and rush hours. The cost of that is the cost of 6 tph from Euclid to Lefferts in non-rush hours. Since rush hour deployment drives most costs, and would not change, that would be very inexpensive.
First, typical headway weekdays, evenings, and weekends is currently 16 minutes, not 20.
According to AirTrain's FEIS (Table S-1) off-peak "A" train service has 20 minute headways. Any discrepency between what is in the FEIS and the real world no doubt reflects the level of scholarship and honesty that went into its creation. :-)
The obvious way to double the trains to HB is to divert Lefferts As to HB and extend the C to Lefferts at all times except late nights and rush hours. The cost of that is the cost of 6 tph from Euclid to Lefferts in non-rush hours. Since rush hour deployment drives most costs, and would not change, that would be very inexpensive.
You are neglecting the degraded level of service that passengers on the Lefferts Branch and the local Fulton St Line will suffer because of the rerouting. They are four times more numerous than AirTrain's Howard Beach customers. Any scheme that extends the "C" to Lefferts should increase train length to 600 feet to try to match the load levels.
I agree that current off-peak service levels on the "A" train are 8 tph. Mr. Ron from Bayside wants 10 tph service, so an additional 2 tph is still required, or 4 tph using the 20 minute headway baseline.
Also, I used less than current figures for operating costs because the National Transportation Database was not displaying the 2001 data. That link is now up. The cost figure should be $6.79/vehicle-route mile instead of the $6.47 figure for 2000 that I used.
The distance from Rockaway Blvd to Lefferts is 1.14 miles; the distance from Rockaway Blvd to Howard Beach is 1.74 miles and the distance from Euclid to Rockaway Blvd is 1.53 miles.
The extra costs for increasing from 20 minute headways to 6 minute headways to Howard Beach under your routing are:
1. - 3 "A" trains routed from Lefferts to Howard Beach: 3 x $6.79 x 10 x (1.74 - 1.14) = $122.22
2. - 4 additional "A" trains from 59th St to Howard Beach: $6.79 x 10 x 15 = $4074.00
3. - increasing existing "C" service from 8 to 10 cars from 168th to Euclid: 6 x $6.79 x 2 x 19 miles = $1548.12
4. - extending 10 car "C" service from Euclid to Lefferts: 6 x $6.79 x 10 x (1.14 + 1.53) = $1087.76
Total one-way hourly cost is: $122.22 + $4074.00 + $1548.12 + $1087.76 = $6704.88
Total two-way cost per day is: $6704.88 x 2 x 8 = $107278.08
Divided among the same 3940 passengers that comes to: $27.23 per passenger. is an additional $27 per passenger really "very inexpensive"? :-)
Additionally, during peak subway hours the subway doesn't run at a fixed interval schedule to and from Far Rock. In this scenario as well, more frequent AirTrain service will outperform less frequent bus service in terms of average waiting time.
Another remaining issue is perception. While you and I know that the subway runs on a schedule, most of the riders do not. Standing 15 minutes waiting for a shuttle bus, they have visions of missing A train after A train. Right or wrong, that is their perception and they won't want to use that mode of travel again.
Your conclusions rely on bus travel time equalling AirTrain travel time -- my experience on that bus compared to the time projections advertised for AirTrain tell me that the bus is much slower, but obviously we need to wait and see what AirTrain really does.
CG
Or in a deliberate attempt to convince the public that buses are automatically slow and inconvenient.
The last time I took a plane into JFK it was more than an hour late. The last time I took the #7 express between Times Sq and Main St it took a lot more than the scheduled 30 minutes. :-)
The PA does not show the running time for its bus service. However, the Green Lines timetable (Q10) does show running times from the airport entrance at Lefferts to the terminals. It's 10 minutes from Lefferts to Terminal 5. The total time around the airport terminals is 24 minutes, according to Green Lines.
The last time I took the "Train to the Plane" there were two buses between Howard Beach and the terminals. They divided up the terminals. So, a 10 minute bus ride does not appear unreasonable.
CG
Sounds like FunPass too. They really are screwing people now, next to the old FunPass arrangement.... It went from the best deal in town to a not so attractive deal.
That's still forty bucks more than the airport employees are paying now. I am not sure that everyone will afford it. The subway fare was just hiked, now they're going to have to ante up another forty bucks?
The question isn't one of intelligence. It is a question of the rate at which a person values their free time. Here's an example.
It takes 50 minutes to take the Q10 from JFK to Kew Gardens -- and you can do that for $2.00. You'll be able to take the AirTrain to Jamaica and connect to an E train and make the trip in 30 minutes (10 minutes to Jamaica, 10 minutes connection time, and 10 minutes Sutphin to Kew Gardens) at a cost of $3.00. For a buck, you save 20 minutes.
So if the person in the above example values their personal time at more than $3 per hour, then they'll be thrilled to take the AirTrain. If not, they'll be loving life on the Q10.
Note -- The times above are estimated based on what I've read, and not intended to be exact. Each person who works at the airport will have their own personal travel time differences and their own opinion about the value of their free time.
CG
So, most folks are going to be hitting the road 4-6 hours before the departure time. And 20 minutes here and there is not going to make damn much of a difference, from that viewpoint.
Besides, it doesn't take much for you to get stuck in the subway for 20 extra minutes, thus blowing all that extra time you save from taking the Airtrain. In fact, that exactly what happened last week, when I didn't know beforehand that all As were going to Lefferts, and there was a single-tracked shuttle to the Rockaways. Blew twenty minutes right there, because of that.
So I don't think anyone's going to think much of saving 20 minutes trip time, when you end up getting stuck at the airport for two more hours anyway.
Sorry that it wasn't clear.
CG
And how is your job search going?
Hopefully if we do this more people will ride the train from New York to London!
That will teach those evil airline folks. :-)
All these buses are underrated.
I never knew about the Q3, but whenever I had apssengers that missed Rockaway Boulevard and ended up at Lefferts, I always suggested the Q10 if they didn't have too much baggage.
> Notice also how the PA advertises the Q3, Q10, and B15. Q3 to the F train?
The TA could advertise the Q10 a little better themselves at Leferts.
"Take the A train (pointing to the Manhattan Bound side) One stop to Rockaway Blvd. Cross UNDER to the other platform from the front of the train. Make damn sure you get on an A train there that says 'Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway'. Get off at Howard Beach and follow the crowd up and over toward the shuttle buses. If you DON'T, you'll wind up here again in 15 minutes. And some people have done just that!"
Usually works. I rarely had people come back.
Well JFK airport just lost my business. I know they got a little mall and terminal in there, but if that's the attitude the PA has, then they can do just fine without my business.
Wouldn't suprise me one bit if the PA was instrumental in getting rid of the JFK Flyer bus.
"JFK Terminal, a destination in itself" gimme a break, its not worth $5 to visit. Not to mention prices in the mall are higher than anywhere else.
Not that it ever had any of your business in the first place... or are my tax dollars paying for airline flights for people on the dole?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Umm, you brought up your personal issues in the first place. If you hadn't no one would be able to insult you. You brought in on yourself.
Peace,
ANDEE
They have no interest in flyig and cost no more to carry on the trains.
I didn't see an Airtrain stop anywhere nearby. What are these people going to do now?
I think it's safe to assume it'll be eliminated.
I think it's safe to assume it'll be eliminated.
If the parking lot entrance is not eliminated, and you want to save your $5 (which will probably be 5 MTA-style dollars and thus only $4.17), you'd have to walk (with luggage) to the first Airtrain station within the parking lot.
Most occasional travelers wouldn't do that.
If the $5 fare is only for those who don't feel like walking an extra three minutes, then I have no problem with it.
I guess that means you'll be flying out of Newark now, because that's what AIRports are for.
I guess you don't want to spend your hard-earned money.
Uh...The PA is in the business of operating an airport and not a shoppping mall. There's always the Q-10 bus.
Bill "Newkirk"
You might want to change your attitude. My wife and I were at JFK's Terminal One last night, picking up my stepdaughter who was coming back from a trip to England and Italy.* As we were waiting in the arrivals area, a Korean Air flight from ICN also was arriving. Let me tell you, the joint was packed with Mystical Chix!
* = while not a railfan, she had high marks for the London Underground, praising its quickness, convenience, and ease of navigation, although the two-line Rome subway wasn't as good.
I wouldn't say that plumbers have a "menial" job.
Probably for employees working at the sirport a special metrocard will be developed for them to avoid having to pay full fare.
All this and other questions will be answered when the airtrain opens up sometime this fall. I've heard September, October or November.
The Port Authority will continue to offer its AirTrain replacement for free to anyone not coming from the two subway stations.
I guess subway passengers are just rolling in the dough.
So, it's going to be cheaper to have someone drive you any JFK parking lot, drop you off, and go right back out, then to take the subway to the airport. Provided that you burn less than $3.67 worth of gas (more or less), for the trip.
Sheer lunacy.
Let's see what happens. Depending on customer demand, the prices may or may not drop.
It's too early to whine and bitch and moan the way you do.
A cab ride would also be cheaper.
Would a rational family of three ride the AirTrain from the terminal to Howard Beach for $15 -- when a cab would take them to Rockaway Boulevard (with twice as frequent service) for under $5? The cab's a better deal even for a single traveler.
I imagine it would be a bit more, a cab from Rockaway Boulevard to Howard Beach is $7, but maybe the guy has a special fare, I'll check it out.
Well, provided that -- and also that I can find somebody who has nothing better to do with their time than shuttle me to and from the airport.
If they were well to do, they wouldn't be taking public transportation.
I don't know on what basis you make that statement but it is very false.
That is likely to change with AirTrain, however.
The Jamaica leg is fine as a premium service for $5.
It's the Howard Beach leg that's replacing the existing shuttle bus.
Chicago Transit Authority:
Blue Line trains provide service to O¡¯Hare Airport in about 45 minutes from stations in the Dearborn subway downtown.
Orange Line trains serve Midway Airport in about 30 minutes from stations on the inner Loop ¡®L¡¯, operating via Van Buren, Wells, Lake and Wabash before returning to Midway.
Train service for both lines operates every 10 minutes or less at most times, and customers can make free connections to both Blue and Orange Line trains from all other ¡®L¡¯ lines serving the Loop. Regular CTA fares apply. [From CTA press release on internet]
Cleveland RTA Airport Transit Service
For a quick, convenient ride to and from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport try using RTA's Red Line. It's simple to catch the Red Line train and it takes less than 30 minutes to ride to or from Downtown Cleveland¡¯s Tower City Station.
RTA's Airport station is located on the lower level of the terminal complex. To reach the rapid transit line just take the elevators or escalators near the center of the ticketing and baggage claim levels.
RTA's regularly scheduled service also makes this the most convenient and least expensive way to travel. From Monday through Saturday the Red Line operates every 15 minutes until 12:59 a.m. On Sunday, the rapid operates until 9:55 p.m. after that you can take the RTA 66S shuttle-bus that departs from the ticketing level until 1:00 p.m. The 66S airport shuttle bus departs Cleveland Hopkins Airport from the upper level area every half-hour. Riding the rapid only costs $1.50 each way.
RTA's Red Line was the first rapid transit service to an International Airport in North America. On Friday, November 15, 1968, direct rapid transit service began from downtown to the Cleveland airport. In addition to serving air travelers, the new extension brought rapid transit facilities closer to southwest suburban commuters.
Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority (MARTA)
MARTA has a rail station right inside Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. This service offers the quickest and most inexpensive way to get to downtown Atlanta's hotels and other hotels all over Fulton and DeKalb counties. The station is located near the baggage claim area, at the North end of the Airport. [MARTA¡¯s base fare is currently $1.75]
SEPTA ¨C Philadelphia
The R1 Airport Line connects University City, 30th Street, Suburban or Market East Stations with all Philadelphia International Airport terminals.
30th Street Station, at 30th & Market Streets, provides a direct connection to Amtrak and New Jersey Transit Rail service; Suburban Station, located between 16th and 17th Streets on John F. Kennedy Boulevard, is situated in the heart of Philadelphia's business district; and Market East Station, located at 11th and Market Streets, is directly below the Pennsylvania Convention Center and connects to the Gallery Shopping Mall and the Reading Terminal Market. One trip on the Airport line is $5.50 for adults or $1.50 for children ages 5 - 11. Family Fare tickets are valid during off-peak times for $17.00 for a group of up to five people. (Please see section on Fare Information for further details). A SEPTA DayPass may also be used for one trip on the Airport Line or any Regional Rail Line. [NOTE that despite the fact that SEPTA¡¯s R1 line is operated as a commuter rail line, as opposed to a city transit line, you can ride between airport and center city for only 50 cents more than the Port Authority will charge for the short Howard Beach-JFK segment.]
Baltimore MTA
Baltimore¡¯s light rail trains operate between BWI airport and Downtown Baltimore and Penn Station.
One-way fare $1.35, or 1 token (Tokens 10 for $13.00), Day Passes, which entitle you to unlimited rides on Baltimore Buses, Light Rail, or Metro Subway are $3.00.
Portland, Oregon-TriMet MAX Red Line, Airport/City Center
MAX Red Line operates between downtown Portland and the Portland International Airport (PDX), every 15 minutes during the day. For $1.55, the direct trip to or from downtown Portland takes just 38 minutes. MAX's low-floor cars make it easy to roll your luggage on board.
Washington DC Metrorail Reagan Washington National Airport station
Location: Opposite main terminal (Courtesy van to old terminal)
Last train departs: Huntington- 12:10 a.m. Mt. Vernon Sq-UDC- 11:44 p.m.
Addison Road- 11:47 p.m. Franconia-Springfield- 12:26 a.m.
(Trains leave exactly 2 hours later on Friday and Saturday nights.)
Fares and times between stations: [Note that although WMATA has a distance-based fare structure, there is no airport penalty.]
Regular Fare $1.10 base (0-3 miles), maximum fare $3.25
Reduced Fare $1.10 (0-7 miles), $1.60 (7-10 miles), $2.10 (10+miles)
Regular fares are charged 5:30-9:30 a.m. and 3 to 7 p.m. weekdays.
Reduced fares are charged at all other times.
For fares between stations, go to Metrorail station page and click on the station where you are starting your trip.
Notes on NJT Penn Station/EWR fares:
NYP-EWR = $11.55
NYP-Elizabeth = $4.55
Airport NJT station¨CEWR = 5.00 [monorail fare]
Therefore, if you buy a NYP-Elizabeth ticket at Penn Station for $4.55, get off at the airport station and buy a monorail ticket, your total NYP-EWR fare is $9.55, two dollars cheaper than the published fare. Of course, the cheapest way to EWR is the NJT #62 bus from Newark Penn Station.
For BWI, you can take the Green Line to Greenbelt and then transfer for the B30 MetroBus to BWI. The B30 costs 2.50 one way but if you have a rail to bus transfer, you get an 85 cent discount (same with the 5A). The B30 runs every 40 minutes and the trip is about 30 minutes long.
The Baltimore Light Rail also goes to BWI.
You missed the thread then. The N to LGA plan has been put on the back burner for now [at least] but the $645 million put aside for the project cannot be used.
The NIMFYs (Not in My Front Yard) are NOT wrong. They all purchased homes on a normal street open to the sky. If the plan goes through, the street in front of their house will be blocked by an obtrusive concrete superway (euphemism for el). This is extension will not benefit them in any way as they will be no closer to their nearest subway station, so their property values WILL go down.
The solution is to rezone those two blocks of 31st Street as commercial and buy out all of the properties using eminent domain. It's fair for everyone.
You are right about something though: the NIMBYs are selfish, but all normal people are.
The best solution would be to let this project die. Why is LaGuardia Airport still even necessary?
Why the hell shud we let this die jus b/c its La Guardia. It's still an extrememly busy airport. By extendin the subway there, ya get a lot of people off the roads. Common sense my friend.
Or rebuild part of the El as subway. If only the Ditmars station became underground, then you could reduce the cost overrun on the new line. The line would rise again out of the ground once in industrial territory.
Residents living in front of stations prior to the current Ditmars terminal would not care much (no difference in physical environment worth mentioning). In fact, they would gain something - a convenient subway ride to the airport. So their housing values would even even rise a bit (convenient transportation to airport jobs - LGA is a major employer!)
This can easily be done physically, if not monetarily. You could portal the el underground just north of Astoria Blvd. station. That area is largely industrial. Build a new Ditmars station underground, with the added virtue of being actually AT Ditmars Blvd., instead of 500 feet south, so you can actually make the bus connection without running. Then take it above ground north of 20th Ave., within the old ConEd property.
Not by much. But your point is well taken.
"The solution is to rezone those two blocks of 31st Street as commercial and buy out all of the properties using eminent domain. It's fair for everyone."
OK. Good.
Or rebuild part of the existing line and extension as subway. Fir example, if the Ditmars Blvd. station became an underground station, and the extension did not rise above ground until it neared the airport, then:
Property values of the residents near the existing station would rise, due to the elimination of an El structure (and they are still near a station, which would be modern and ADA compliant, so much the better); the El portion would be on industrial land. And the new El portion would be much quieter than the existing line.
So instead of continuing that, I thought we'd look at it another way.
First, remember that when you ride transit in other cities to the airport, the taxpayer picks up most of the operating cost (as much as 75%) of your ride (this doesn't include construction costs). So your ride on SEPTA is subsidized; your ride on Cleveland's Red Line is subsidized; yourride on Metrorail in Washington is subsidized, etc.
The Port Authority used NO taxpayer money to pay to build AirTrain (either EWR or JFK). Zero. It used transfer fee money paid by people purchasing airline tickets.
The MTA chose not to extend a transit line into JFK. I wanted them to, but they didn't, so too bad. Forget it - spilled milk.
AirTrain receives NO operating subsidy (Zero) from the taxpayer.
So, instead of the usual bullshit rants, try this: how would you guys fund Airtrain's operation?
1) Fares (we don't yet know exactly what that will be or how soon it might change).
To reduce the fare a lot, how about:
2) Surcharges on food and merchandise in airport retail stores and restaurants?
3) Parking surcharge dedicated to AirTrain?
4) Advertising in the AirTrain system?
5) Assessment on airport businesses (which will then recover that in the form of slightly higher prices from customers), including an air cargo surcharge, by the pound (JFK recently opened a lot of new cargo buildings)
6) Surcharge on rental cars?
7) Surcharge on pay phones within the airports?
Do you guys have any other ideas?
And how exactly do you expect that to happen, when it's going to be cheaper to drive, or take a cab to the airport, instead of using the subway/airtrain combo (see elsewhere in the thread for an example)?
What about people who live in places like North Dakota where transit is not only not an acceptable option, but not an option at all?
The only way things will be most efficient is not to have GosPlan decide on prices for things, but to have prices based on the COST of providing things. If the market set things, then rates would be set based on the laws of supply and demand and non-transit users would conveniently be charged more in denser areas.
...and conserve the enviornment. [sic]
Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?! Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she's losing. Well I say, hard cheese.
Hah! Nicely put. I hear you; better that attitude than "Oh my oh my oh my! We hafta be nice to mamma Nature...she's gonna hoit us iffen we don't!!!" Bosh. Not at all that I'm against what they call "ecologically correct" thinking. But we should never forget what the human race has had to go through so all of us can sit here in front of our razzle dazzle juju boxes and be entertained. It sure didn't get here by being simpering fearful organisms. Nope. Took blood, sweat and tears. Always does.
The MTA chose not to extend a transit line into JFK. I wanted them to, but they didn't, so too bad. Forget it - spilled milk.
AirTrain receives NO operating subsidy (Zero) from the taxpayer."
Very good points, Ron.
"To reduce the fare a lot, how about:
(snip)
4) Advertising in the AirTrain system?"
Well, that is a pretty painless idea that the PA could presumably adopt immediately if it saw fit. Question is, would it produce enough revenue to bring the fare down by any appreciable amount?
An alternative would be to get the whole thing sponsored by some large corporation, which would then have blanket advertising on it. Soemthing of this sort seems to have happened at London's Heathrow airport with the HSBC bank, which has advertising in all the pedestrian walkways, and even on the outside of the jetways to the planes.
I don't think advertising will make a huge dent in the operating cost (but it can contribute something). I see it as one of many options which can be tried, in combination.
The London example you provide is splendid.
Rental cars picked up at the airport are charged a "franchise fee"
Airtrain is a cheaper option then the option many airport passengers already pay
You dismiss the idea of an improved bus service with a wave of the hand, but it seems to me like an improved bus service could have achieved most or all of the benefits of the Howard Beach branch of AirTrain at much lower cost. Improve the connection to the subway at Howard Beach, run subway-airport expresses in addition to the existing locals through the parking lots, and designate one of the lanes by the terminals as a bus lane.
This is comforting to visitors to the city. The people airtrain is targeted at
From people who travel often, $5 is penuts to ensure that you don't miss your flight. Buses tend to get caught in traffic
All the options I listed can be easily implemented, before or after.
Instead of ranking the choices yourself, or offering one not listed, you choose to offer a closed-minded rant. Too bad.
"You dismiss the idea of an improved bus service with a wave of the hand, but it seems to me like an improved bus service could have achieved most or all of the benefits of the Howard Beach branch of AirTrain at much lower cost."
Nobody dismissed that option out of hand. It was eliminated by a lot of people as a reasonable option for very good reasons.
Care to share?
If it's not worthy of consideration, tell me why it's not worthy of consideration.
The cost of airtrain and LIRR or NYCT is cheaper then most other options from manhattan to the airport or even by cab or car dervice from brooklyn and queens
Travel too and from the airport is an occasional occurance. $5 is a small prive to pay for airtrain.
In the future I will be droping off and picking up relatives from howard beach Airtrain stop. Since 9/11 you can not stop and wait for passengers at the terminal pick up area which leads to endless circuling and/or paying for parking in the short term lot no to mention trying to figure it all out
Airtrain makes it simpler and easier
You can not look at the cost of airtrain from a everyday usage perspective such as subway fare. Airtrain is an occasional item. One pays $15 for a plate of pasta at a nice resturant but will not pay $15 to eat lunch at the locakl deli.. The nice resturant is an occasional purchace which you can make a small exception on pricce to ensure a good time.
There is nothing worst then missingnn your flight. Especially when you fly for work
So tell me what you think the PA should do.
Should employers pick up the $5 tab? IF they don't, where else should the PA get the money?
I want ideas here, not rants.
Depends who you're talking about.
The family of four going on their summer vacation? Sure, they can afford the $5 -- $20, actually -- but they can just as easily afford the $45 for a cab.
The college student who got the cheapest flight home he could find so he could attend his grandmother's funeral? Perhaps it's not so easy for him.
The unemployed job seeker who has his airfare, and only his airfare, paid for by the companies he interviews with? Ditto.
The non-flyer who accompanies a friend to the airport to say goodbye? For him it's $10, and he doesn't have a plane ticket at all.
For the convenience, I don't think it will stop people from using it.
What convenience? How is the Howard Beach leg of AirTrain any more convenient than the shuttle bus that currently runs?
What convenience? How is the Howard Beach leg of AirTrain any more convenient than the shuttle bus that currently runs?
Well, this may be like the express vs. the local scenario, but I think that the perception of a smoother connection, rail to rail, whether it is accurate or not, will bring more people to use the Airtrain over time, than that currently use the bus. Of course the Howard Beach segment of AirTrain is basically just a replacement of the serivce the bus now provides, the Jamaica leg will be a new serice.
Don't get me wrong, the $5 fare is high, probably higher than it should be, but I still think it will be well used. People will overcome that. Hopefully they will adjust the fare structure to better coordinate with the subway system to make it more seamless. I don't feel it sould be a free transfer from the subway to AirTrain at Howard Beach, but it should be more similar to the PATH-Subway connections, even if a "double-fare". It would be a start.
One psoting said there is a plan for a $40 monthly ticket. If true, that's $1 per ride for employees, not $5.
That's a bit of a shell game. The Port Authority funded the
construction using Passenger Facility Charges, a small ($3,
I believe) charge added to each ticket using that airport.
There is only one PFC per ticket. The PFC is used for airport
facility improvements. PFC money must be dedicated solely
to projects which benefit airline passengers only. That is why
AIRTRAIN doesn't connect with anything.
The PFC revenue is substantial, but the PA already relies on it
to fund a bunch of other things. Basically, the way the game
works is the PA borrows, appropriates or otherwise obtains and
lays out the construction costs, then pays them back over a long
term using a portion of the PFC revenues. At the current level
of indebtness, every cent of the PFCs is spoken for through
some absurd period like 2075 ! It's sort of like the National Debt,
just keep pushing it forward and let some future generation worry
about it.
Specious reasoning, although I can imagine that the PA was still afraid of lawsuits. A direct A train or LIRR extension to the airport would only benefiit airline passengers as long as the line didn't continue past the airport to other destinations.
This is true only if the train leaving the airport does not pick up passengers anywhere outside of the airport, and trains going to the airport pick up, but do not discharge passengers before arriving at the airport. Since neither of those things are practical, it will be a mixed use line, and therefore airport funds could not be used to build or operate it.
Tom
Incidentally, AirTrain can be used to commute between Howard Beach and Jamaica for $40 monthly, with a transfer at any of the terminals. Why is that not a problem?
But now we trot out all the arguments about the need to stop at each terminal which makes a scheduled subway line not ideal as an airport circulator. An extension to the airport that does not stop at each terminal is not effective. With this configuration, the operating and repair costs fall on the MTA rather than the PA.
Tom
The E was to have gone from Parsons along the LIRR row to Rosedale.
Of course, the two of you are talking about two separate things. The IND had built a provision for a line south on Van Wyck Blvd. The MTA used that provision to connect Archer to the QB line.
The same impressive effort that David puts into railfanning the subway, noting subway car consist serial numbers,platforms and other items could have yielded a much better understanding of this subject at hand had he chosen to apply the effort in that direction. He chooses not to, because he made up his mind a long time ago about this and has decided he doesn't want to acquire any information that might be at odds with it.
I've seen pictures of David, he's not black.
I've seen pictures of David, he's not black.
And your point is?
You now have a cross-platform transfer for both the arriving and the departing passengers, and the shuttle frequency can be as little as three minutes.
At ground level, the original ROW that MTA had rights to was for one track only.
Specious reasoning, although I can imagine that the PA was still afraid of lawsuits. A direct A train or LIRR extension to the airport would only benefiit airline passengers as long as the line didn't continue past the airport to other destinations"
If the improvements must benefit ***passengers only***, how are the PA going to prevent airport employees (of whom there are no doubt many thousands) from using the Airtrain? Why are they going to offer a $40 monthly ticket, which cannot be of use to many passengers? Or does American legal English have a different meaning for the word 'only' from the one I am used to (8-) ?
I believe the law limits PFC funding to projects that benefit all airport users, not just passengers.
One could certainly argue that anything which helped airport employees get to their jobs was a benefit to the passengers.
Tom
In any event, the taxpayer still doesn't shell out anything. Users of the airport pay to use the facilities, and that's how construction bonds get paid back.
I hear a complaint in your post, but it doesn't make sense.
Saying "it doesn't cost the taxpayers a dime" is a misleading
statement that sounds good coming from a politician's mouth.
The fact is there is a cost for everything. Unless the
PFC funds go through a "trust fund" and can only be used to
repay the construction costs, reality is PFC funds are revenue
and debt service is expenditure. If you didn't have the expenditure
on the construction bonds, you'd still have exactly the same amount
of PFC revenue. That has to be balanced from somewhere, be it
airport users (and let's not lump airport users together as
some deserving punching bag full of people who "aren't us"....the
people most likely to use NY area airports are NY area residents!)
PATH riders, PA bridge & tunnel customers, or taxpayers (pretty
sure NY & NJ kick in some funding to PA's annual budget).
And it isn't "sour grapes" to look at the project in hindsight
and wonder "what if". Fact is, some residents of NYC endured
5 years of construction noise and delays, now have an additional
eyesore in their view (which admittedly wasn't too picturesque
to begin with) and we _still_ don't have a direct ride from
Manhattan to the airport.
Then again, how much profit does the Port Authority make per year? ATL nets $250 million/year, so they can more than afford to provide the people mover service for free. Perhaps since the PA has to subsidize PATH from airport revenues, they don't have to budget to provide very cheap Airtrain service?
I don't know what the fine print in Bombardier's operating contract says.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i4000/img_4816.jpg
#3 West End Jeff
Just prior to Chrystie Street about three or four TT would layup at the East New York Yard midday and deadhead between there and Chambers Street. This is probably what the picture represents.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I remember seeing a TT train of R-32s laid up in ENY Yard 36 years ago yesterday. This was just after my first ride on an A train. We were standing on the Canarsie platform waiting for a Manhattan-bound train. Then I saw the BMT standards for the first time. Ewwwwwwwww!!
And of course, today marks 38 years since my very first subway ride.
Happy Anniversary Steve. Mine was on November 2, 1949. (Actually it was on an el. I posted the details on a long forgotten web-site called "El-talk."
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
How can you remember the exact date? I'm sure I was taken on subway and els and trolleys when I was a baby, but I don't remember them and I certainly couldn't put a date on it. I couldn't even put a date on the first ride I remember, except it had to be before June 1950 because we still lived in our apartment on St. Paul's Court.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul: Well I could say that I have a very good memory which is true but not that true. I was only seven days old at the time. My mother kept what they used to call a "baby book" wherein each child firsts are recorded and thats how I know the date. BTW it was on the 3 Avenue El from 149 Street to 76 Street (Lenox Hill Hospital). And I wonder why I am a railfan?
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
P.S. They still have baby books.
It is unusual that the front is signed Chambers in that direction.
Rush hour West End Sort Line trains operated northbound through Nassau St and over the Manhattan Bridge. (Rush hour Culver trains operated in the reverse direction.)
My guess is that this train ran light to Broad St and changed directions to run to Bay Pkwy. The front sign for Chambers would be correct for the run back to Chambers the next morning. I'd expect the rear to have the correct destination sign for Bay Pkwy.
As of May 1959, this historic service pattern was discontinued and West End-Nassaus ran to Chambers Street via tunnel all day, originating at Coney Island during midday when West End Expresses didn't run. Likewise, Culvers no longer ran past 9th Avenue.
This picture is 1964 or later.
My guess is that this train ran light to Broad St and changed directions to run to Bay Pkwy. The front sign for Chambers would be correct for the run back to Chambers the next morning. I'd expect the rear to have the correct destination sign for Bay Pkwy.
Four a.m. TTs ran light to DO yard and returned in the evening via tunnel. My guess is the train went around the loop at ENY for some reason and is thus mis-signed.
I've taken dozens of photos in front of cops and Metro-North workers in Grand Central, although then again that is a major tourist spot...I wouldn't try the same at 125th St in front of a cop.
And FYI, the lower level is off-limits to anyone not carrying a valid ticket, there are huge red signs stating "access beyond the 'train gates' is prohibited except for Metro-North employees and ticket-holding customers", or something to that effect. Now what exactly is a "train gate" I don't know, but I guess that's for the cop to decide...
Ah, that explains a lot. So I will try taking photos again on the upper level. If I go to one of the gates at the far north end, using the new N/S passageways, will anyone bother me up there?
Me, I met my wife in a bar ... her custom was to give out the wrong phone number when asked, she made a mistake that night ... four kids & two grandchildern later, I guess it turned out alright
It focuses on the history of the line and what the right of way could become.
The exhibit runs through July 26.
They could have extended it down to the WTC area and ran LIRR trains from Penn Station. That would easier and cheaper than trying to build a new tunnel but NOOOOOOOOO, they have to have an elevated pedestrian walkway.
The right of way is gone below Bank Street (and partly above there too). Building an elevated line all the way to the WTC area would require large amounts of land acquisition in the non-low-rent West Village and Tribeca. Won't ever happen.
And the way it was...
Inaction will cause this to happen anyway. Have you walked the LIRR Rockaway Branch lately? :)
--Mark
No, but if we can get a group together, I'd love to!
No, but if we can get a group together, I'd love to!
Wait until Fall or Winter, when the brush is easier to get through...
I see you don't read BusTalk.
Sometimes I do, but not enough to have caught this. I did make a post recently because I was LUCKY to have caught a mention of me there.
While you're there, you'll also see this antique bus map:
1. Extend 7 Line from West Side onto High Line to Christopher St.(approx end point of existing sttructure), where it then curves over to the west side highway and goes into a tunnel to the new downtown transit center. Stops wud b at:
34th St.
23rd St.
14th St.
Christopher St.
Houston St.
Canal St.
Manhatten Community College
downtown transit center
2. Extend the L to about 9th st. where it will become elevated and enter the high line via the 16th/15th st. spur. The L extension wud run to 34th St. Stops at
10th av.
23rd St.
34th St.
3. Extend LIRR onto high line via the west side yard. This will bring it to the new downtown transit center. The line will basically follow the same routing as option #1, just fewer stops. The only possible stops(aside from downtown transit center) are at the west side yard(employees only, or passengers also wit walkways/elevators to street level), and Christopher St. for transfer between PATH and other NJT lines comming in from hoboken via new tunnel from new lower level at hoboken.
Is it possible for the L and the 7 to run on the same tracks and share the same stations? If yes, the I think the LIRR shud jus go below the high line.
If you will pardon me I would like to say what a great resource we have here in sub-talk.
Sub-talk is part of NYC.ORG. A public service provided FREE of charge by David Pirmann. The amount of material about the subways that has been amassed by Dave and his contibutors is truly amazing. We have Peggy's station by station guides, Mark's excellent histories and Wayne's car information to name but a few.Not to mention hundreds if not thousands of subway photos. When I was a railfan back in the 60's we would have given anything to have had a resource like this. Its kind of like a supermarket for railfan information.
Now lets talk about sub-talk. I don't know how long I have been posting here but it must be about five years. Look at all the friendships that have started here. How many of you knew have made new friends?. Sub-talkers organize their own field trips and travel all over. Regular subway fantrips are much more enjoyable because you have so many friends to talk too. And isn't it always nice to met one of the posters from far away places like Chicago, the San Andreas Fault orJersey City. Very often its someone that you have had an extended conversation with on sub-talk but never got to meet.
Yes we do have a few nitwits in the railfan community at large but you have a few nitwits in any group or community. Occasionally one turns up on this board and throws a few bricks and starts trouble but they don't last long. Usually because we all band together and drive them out. I don't know if you guys realize it but you work together very well in marginilizing the kooks on the subway fantrips.
Some of the guys in the railfan community were obnoxious forty years ago and their still obnoxious so don't get the idea that these guys started with sub-talk.
Lets look at the posts. Yes there are high points and low points in our discussion but there will be highs and lows in any discussion. Occasionally we do get off topic but its usually when someone mentions a nice place to eat near a subway station and for the next three days we will debate the proper way to make egg creams. I look forward to the reports of the field trips that people have taken. There are over 460 stations and 6000 cars on the subway system and no one of us can vist each of them every day so its interesting to hear when someone says that they say a pink elephant on the upper level of the West 4 Street Station. (Pinks elephants I might add rarely if ever turn up on the lower level.) Of course the rest of us will urge him to come back to a more sensible topic like the station at 76 Street and Pitkin. (A white elephant.)
I've said this before and I'll say it again. No one on this board no more than anyone else. We all have our special areas of interests but no one knows all the information. Even if you only ride the subways once a week you might see some construction or an unusal car. Report on it. Things we take for granted nowadays can become historical facts years down the road.
Thats it. Thats all I have to say. Thanks to Dave and my fellow sub-talkers for many, many hours of good conversation.
And if you missed the sermon on Sunday you got it todays.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
"nyc.org"?
Dave: My apologies. I meant to say that it was part of nycsubway.org.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Some of us can't type it in right. Thank God for bookmarks. :-)
Tom
Making up for the banner for the 1689 charter last fall... www..org
--Mark
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Pick a registrar and say, I want [domain].org.
That's ALL there is to it.
For the most part you are preaching to the choir.
There is only a small handful who seem to kvetch about the goings on in here. Overall I think we have been pretty good in keeping things in check.
Peace,
ANDEEE
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
--Mark
While all the metrics reported are early, and need to be followed over several months to a couple of years to really define the trends and account for factors the state of the economy, freakish weather (the recent monsoon season) and so on, notice the jump in unlimited farecard use.
As people begin to realize that $2 is not really what you must pay (so long as you do a LITTLE planning), that % will continue to climb.
I expect ridership will come back with it.
The last N/B 6 express train leaves BB-CH at 2019, that is more than a 1 hour cut in PM Pelham express service in the Bronx.
This is a good way to reduce ridership, cutting the hours and increasing headways on the 6 is not justified.
Once those fewer trains reach Astoria and turn around the reduction will be happening in the other direction too. It must then also start to affect Brooklyn bound riders around 8:30 PM.
TA to Fred: congratulations, we made the N an express. The catch is, you'll never find one outside of rush hour.
That sucks. Why can't they just pick on the bronx local instead? :(
Well, that's real intelligent :-\. Its bad enough that the N takes long to come in the first place only to bunch up later but after 7pm that is just STUPID.
Becasue M service is so weird anyway they had lots of jobs that involved 1/2 trips to make the schedule work.
Lets say you ended Bay Parkway serivce at 8pm and laid up by 9pm at the yard. When and where would you start that job? You would need a putin at CIY but noon is way to early and 2:30 makes more sense but gives you 1:30 hours of nothing to do to make your 8 hours so they run the trains longer. It also helps CIY not to get all the layups at the same time.
Did you notice if any Parkchester crews on the 6 line are going to be doing 4 trips next pick?
In addition, I thought the Silver Line was going to replace the MBTA #7 bus line to South Boston.
Why didn't this accur.
Any comments appreciated.
If you think this information is not accurate, I suggest you contact the MBTA directly and discuss it with them. The MBTA Web site home page has a link to send emails, and they DO respond.
In addition, what is going to happen with the New Bedford/Fall River Commuter rail project, will construction start soon.
Any cooments appreciated.
Similarly, the New Bedford/Fall River project is not yet funded, and does not currently have enough legislative support. Therefore, planning for this project is also suspended.
You have one extra word in that sentence :)
Here are two assumptions: 1. Full utilization of north and south tracks on Manhattan Bridge
2. Enough rolling stock in service to accomodate route changes.
I have seen comments about the V going down to Kings Highway or Church Avenue on the Culver Line. This routing would contradict TA policy since 1967. What I have seen the TA do, when there are two routes on one line is to have them diverge on the other side of Midtown.
To conform to this policy (which I agree) the V and F would not both terminate on the Culver Line at the Brooklyn end of the line.
Here are some possible route changes taking into account my assumptions and TA policy.
F: Send the F to Coney Island via Brighton Line local. Elimiminate the Q local (current circle Q) and have Q as Brighton/Broadway Express only terminating at 57th St/7th Ave. Manhattan Bridge. F local on sixth Ave.
D: Send the D back to Culver (pre 11/67 route) Sixth Ave. Express. It should run express all the way to Kings Highway and then continue to CI.
B: Send the B back to West End. Not Brighton. If having the W and B is too much service for West End, then how about sending the B to the BMT east division using the connection by Broadway-Lafayette?
V: I do not think that the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge can efficiently handle more than two routes. In this plan, that would be B and F. With that in mind, the V should go to Kings Highway as a Culver Local. The G should terminate at Church Avenue.
Manhattan summation: Broadway would have R,W Local and N,Q express. W,N and Q to use bridge. Not sure which should pass Dekalb.
Sixth Ave. would have F and V local and B and D express. B and F to use bridge.
How about starting direct sixth avenue service to BMT eastern division? Would that work now? Which line? B?
D: Send the D back to Culver (pre 11/67 route) Sixth Ave. Express. It should run express all the way to Kings Highway and then continue to CI.
How are you going to do this routing with a MAJOR bottleneck at 34th st, you have F and D trains crossing over at either 34th st or West 4th st.
Sometimes true, sometimes not.
The (6) and < 6 >, the (Q) and < Q >, the A and C, never diverge.
Sometimes the routes diverge even before reaching midtown, e.g., on Queens Blvd, on the Brooklyn IRT.
This is no longer possible. Since the construction of the Christie Connection, The 6th Ave "Express" tracks *MUST* take the Bridge, and *MUST* go north via 8th Avenue.
The Queens trains *MUST* run LOCAL and must take Rutgers or may switch south of W4th for WTC.
To do otherwise requires switching trains in front of one another, delaying the whole planet.
Elias
Until two years ago, the Q was a 6th Avenue express to Queens.
This makes me wonder why the Broadway approach to 63rd Street wasn't similarly done to afford access to 63rd for both local and express trains. I would have made it much easier to send a route like the R via 63rd.
I wonder how the routes would differ if CPW trains had direct access to both the local and the express tracks on 6th. Imagine: full-time B local to Culver, weekday D express to Brighton, full-time F express to West End, part-time V local to 2nd.
D: Send the D back to Culver (pre 11/67 route) Sixth Ave. Express. It should run express all the way to Kings Highway and then continue to CI.
Where would your Q run to? Also that will be too much switch activity on the 6 Av line, switching at 34 or West 4 St.
B: Send the B back to West End. Not Brighton. If having the W and B is too much service for West End, then how about sending the B to the BMT east division using the connection by Broadway-Lafayette?
At first I didn't really like that idea but then I realize that it would be the most logical plan [unless you want the D to become the part time line, which I don't see happening]. Also the W will NOT serve Brooklyn but my suggestion a while back was to run the W via West End express in the peak, then again it would be too much service for the West End with the M also running there [that would have to be moved to the Brighton to make it practical].
V: I do not think that the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge can efficiently handle more than two routes. In this plan, that would be B and F. With that in mind, the V should go to Kings Highway as a Culver Local. The G should terminate at Church Avenue.
The G would have to go to Church assuming there is a Culver exrpess but the V to Church seems more logical at this point ALTHOUGH I think it could go to Kings Hwy.
How about starting direct sixth avenue service to BMT eastern division? Would that work now? Which line? B?
The V would be the best option b/c the 6 Av/Nassau connection is nearby so you could just extend the V down to B'way Lafayette then run it via the Jamaica el. This would require the V to run 8 train cars for clearance purposes; like Marcy Av for example.
Last Updated 4:49 PM
Due to a rail condition at 86th Street Queensbound 7 trains are operating local from Times Square 42nd Street to Flushing Main Street.
The problem could have been between 82-Jackson Heights and 90-Elmhurst stations, above 86 St.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
My apologies if you fall within MDT's exceptions.
Seeing any new PATCO farecards yet?
NONE
Everyone is like in thier head:"Where the :bleep: is my :bleeping: train!!I've been waiting for 20 :bleeping: mintues already!Train service suck's!It's the same :bleeping bleep: all the time!It's ridiculous!"
A perfect example of this was earlier this year.I was waiting for an uptown 1 train at my home station of 157St.4 trains going downtown passed untill 1 finally came up.Then a young woman and her grandmother board the train at 168St and they look very pissed off.So pissed off that they were yelling at each other.And me sitting some 15ft away,looking at them and shaking my head while thinking just how pathetic they look.
It's really pathetic.You'd figured that after so damn long of riding the subway like I'm sure the majority of NY'ers have done would come to realize that if a train or bus takes a long time then the first thing that should pop into that head is "Well look's like there's something wrong if nothing hasn't come yet"
So it all comes down to this:railfans and busfan's know how to properly deal with a late bus or train since they understand better the situation while non railfans and busfan's just flat out don't.
I was at QP yesterday afternoon, unaware of the service disruption until AFTER I let a local go by, at which point a canned announcement sounded regarding the suspension of express service. There was no canned announcement to this effect for the five minutes before this local came, or from the conductor on the local I let go by: just the usual "Flushing local- 33rd next". Needless to say, lots of people were angry at letting a train go by needlessly.
The conductor of the next train to come also failed to mention the lack of express service. Its arrival coincided with the arrival of an N across the platform and many people making the connection. They would not have heard the canned announcement- only the conductor saying "Flushing local- 33rd next." Some passengers who were aware of the lack of express service were telling people on the platform about it. Why should passengers have to do the conductor's job?
Likewise, there were no announcements at Woodside or Junction either. A lot of people who had gotten on at local stops in between got off to change to the express. There were many people on both platforms peering down the express track.
While the total time lost was maybe five minutes, it's still extremely annoying to be left on the platform for simple lack of information. This can also happen in the morning when time is more of the essence- even five minutes.
Because you are not guaranteed that even if the next 7 is an express, it'll get you there any faster.
Last week I just missed a local at Grand Central. The next 7 was an express.
We both pulled into Shea at the same time. Then we sat on the bridge, watching the local pull into Main street. Finally, three minutes later it was our turn.
I'm sure every once in a while an express might pass one or two locals. But that's not a given. If you're at QBP, and a local comes in, you better take it. You never know when the next one is coming, if at all...
"With the overwhelmingly positive response we've had in the Northeast, we know all of our passengers are going to enjoy this addition to our menu," said Peter Humphreys, director of food and beverage services for Amtrak. "The on-board dining experience is something unique to train travel, and we're pleased to offer Green Mountain Coffee to make the trip even more enjoyable for the thousands of passengers we serve each day."
Gordon Garvey, Flagship and Special Accounts Manager for Green Mountain Coffee Roasters said, "I am very excited and gratified that Amtrak has expanded the success it has experienced with Green Mountain coffee in the Northeast to all areas of the country. Each time I hear the train whistle blow outside our corporate offices, I'm reminded that Amtrak provides thousands of consumers each day with the opportunity to sample, many for the first time, the high quality Green Mountain Coffee builds into every cup. I look forward to continuing my work with the terrific Amtrak team."
Regular and decaffeinated varieties of the coffee are available on Amtrak's long distance trains including the Silver Service (New York - Miami), the Southwest Chief (Chicago - Los Angeles), the Empire Builder (Chicago - Seattle) and Coast Starlight (Los Angeles - Seattle) as well as the Carolinian (New York - Charlotte, N.C.), the Pennsylvanian (New York - Pittsburgh) and the Hiawathas (Chicago - Milwaukee), among others. It will also continue to be offered on all trains along the Northeast Corridor.
Jimmy
Besides, maybe they're putting up some new, cool signals. Maybe you should check them out.
Due to electrical problems near NEW YORK, NJ TRANSIT trains operating to and from NEW YORK are experiencing indefinite delays between NEW YORK and RAHWAY.
All other NJ TRANSIT buses, trains and light rail lines are operating on or close to schedule.
Channel 7's helicopter just showed two stalled New Jersey Transit trains around the Newark Penn Station area.
There's a hold-up in the Bronx,
Brooklyn's broken out in fights,
There's a traffic jam in Harlem
That's backed up to Jackson Heights.
There's a Scout troop short a child,
Khrushchev's due at Idlewyld,
Car 54, Where Are You?
Jimmy
??????
On second thought, leave them on traffic duty on the Cross Bronx Expwy!
Jimmy :D
See ya there!
If they had run the galleries next to the track for most of the run, and then dipped under the platforms, it would have made expanding the platforms much, much more difficult and expensive.
Interesting how the proposed method showed nice straight pipes, but the "Antiquated Method" showed juncitons, regulators, and a capped pipe.
In responsse to:
"One issue with the "pipe galleries" would have been what to do at stations.
Most stations were built pretty much to the building line on both sides of the street.
If they had run the galleries next to the track for most of the run, and then dipped under the platforms, it would have made expanding the platforms much, much more difficult and expensive. "
Mark
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/38st.html
Mark
--Mark
Here's what I think happened. Amtrak lost their NEC feed, where ever it might be. The only other power available would be from the Safe Harbor Dam which feeds the Harrisburg Line west of PAOLI so the PD at Harrisburg transfered all available power to the NEC (somehow) leaving only enough amps to run a single train at a time.
I'll post more as it comes in.
Chuck Greene (Exton, Pa. - 30 miles west of Philly).
Robert
Plus IIRC Amtrak reserves the right to request equipment from their tenant railroads, so MARC, MBTA, NJT could have some of their engines "borrowed".
-------: Basically, when service resumed, in and out of center sity was like nothing ever happened
-------: They coupled 575 and 577 together and ran them as 577
-------: on 577's schedule
-------: and from there on the rest of the night
-------: a push pull set came out as a deadhead train to frazer
-------: that was it
-------: anything scheduled to originate in the outage period just didn't run
-------: Now like I said, that was as far west as paoli
-------: from there west, things were pretty bad
-------: 618 left harrisburg almose 2 hours late
-------: Train 4569 was the worst one
-------: When the hold was places, 4569 gor stopped just east of Paxon
-------: After about an hour
-------: people had to piss
-------: they just got off the train and walked up the right of way to overbrook
-------: When service resumed
-------: train 653 came up 2 track to overbrook
-------: becasue it took 4569 about 20 minutes to get all of the people back on the train as it made several unscheduled stops between Paxon and Overbrook to pick it's run-away's up
Evill Mike: lol
Evill Mike: 4569 is aka?
-------: 653 went 2 to 3 at overbrook over the 17 switch
-------: bryn mawr local
-------: last bryn mawr local ov the evening
Evill Mike: hmm, they probably could have hoped a bus
Evill Mike: or walked home
-------: yea
-------: really
Evill Mike: especially Marion
Evill Mike: and Narberth
-------: Yea
-------: really
The question goes for IRT, BMT, and IND alike.
I always had that question also. I will eagerly await a logical answer if there is one.
Wouldn't it have been nice if Bleecker Street had one all these years? Many stations had them, but they have since been closed. 28th/Lex Line had one but it closed around 1991, but I don't know if 33rd or 23rd had one. I wonder why 28th had one, but seemingly none of the other Lexington stations had them. Bleecker should have been first on the list, especially when the IND connected to one side.
In the late 70s, the fare control to the IRT and BMT was moved to the 8th Ave. end of the passageway, but there was still no free transfer. By 1988, the stores that used to line the mezzanine were gone, the entrance ramp to the Port Authority Bus Terminal had been moved northward, and the entire mezzanine was in the paid fare zone.
Once I've spent all day waiting for a C, I'm not about to give it up to go one stop on the D unless I see a D right there.
Sounds like a typical weekend wait on Central Park West. </joke>
Perhaps, for consistency, the result should be called the B, with the D label reserved for the weekday express. Then the B could become the full-time West End route and the D sent back to the Brighton express.
I emailed this suggestion to NYCT and got back a form response. My impression is that somebody's keeping count, and if this is a popular enough suggestion, it'll happen. If you think this is a good idea, please tell NYCT -- ASAP, before the 2004 routings are set in stone. You can send email from the MTA website, or you can write a letter if you prefer.
On Sunday evening I was unwittingly dragged up to 125th on a D that was supposed to run local because of a GO, but I had no idea that the GO was cancelled (the advisories were still posted at local stations). The D came in on the local track at 59th, to get around an A, so I expected it to run local. Two expresses certainly don't have to meet at 59th, leaving local passengers to wait out the next C.
I had not thought of the post-2004 implications yet but what you say logically follows. Additionally it satisfies the name nostalgists who might not be numerous but certainly are vocal (I happen to disagree with their reasoning but I am happy to agree with the result).
To sum then the post-2004 schedule would be:
B Concourse Local-Express/CPW Local/6 Ave-4 Ave Express/West End
D Concourse Peak Express/CPW-6th Ave-Brighton Express
Other features of the plan are shared. I think its a good plan as modified.
I agree with you that putting the B on the Brighton and the D on the West End isn't a big deal, but if an improved service plan happens to send the B back to the West End and the D back to the Brighton, that's a nice feature. (But it also means that this change has to take place now. If the B actually starts running on the Brighton, it's not going to switch back to the West End no matter how convincing the CPW-based arguments are. That's why I'm asking you to send in your suggestion now.)
One other potential side benefit, for the railfans among us: slants on the D! (The full-time B would probably end up with the Concourse-based R-68's.)
I like the idea of emailing the MTA about the suggestion (I will). While we're at it, I think I will also send an email about the M being terminated middays at Broad Street instead of the proposed Chambers Street proposal for 2004. If we all send suggestions, maybe it can make a difference. By terminating the M at Chambers during the day weekdays, it will cut those riders off from a direct connection to the Fulton Street transfer all day, and thus the 8th Ave and West Side line.
As for weekday middays, if anything has to terminate at Chambers, I'd rather it be the J than the M. While both really should have access to the transfers at Fulton, the J at least has access to the A/C at Broadway Junction, while the M has nothing.
Thanks for writing.
That would have been a nice tidbit to throw in for that suggestion. While I can't do so now, I'll call attention to it for others to use as they see fit. It seems like the efficency in that setup works very nice while permitting plenty of trackage for turning trains at a closed Borad Street station.
My real gripe though is not the weekends. It's a pain, but it's acceptable. My problem is with the midday M on weekdays. They have to alread change to othe J at Myrtle (also fine on weekends), but then again at Chambers for one stop on the J, and then again to the 8th Ave or 7th Ave line. It's such an ordeal just to get to either west side line. They have to put up with that crap on weekends, but shouldn't have to do that during the week also.
It also makes the already crowded L line busier, because many of the M line riders North of Wyckoff are almost forced to transfer to the L there, another unneeded transfer for them. Many riders at Central and Knickerbocker have to backtrack to Wyckoff for this reason also.
It just seems so unecessary to me, as they have a perfectly good transfer at Fulton, if the train stops there.
C trains are invariably more crowded than D trains on weekends -- except on those weekends when GO's cause the D to run local. While waiting for a C at a local station on a Sunday, I often see a D go by with fewer passengers on the train than are standing on my platform alone.
There's no reason to make CPW local passengers bound for 6th Avenue first wait for the infrequent, unreliable C and then wait again for the D. I have more than once lost 20 minutes because two mostly empty D trains have passed before the first C has shown up. There's a major museum at 81st Street and there's no reason there can't be direct service between that museum and the center of Midtown. Museums are busy on weekends.
If the express actually saved a lot of time over the local, there might be reason to keep the D as an express. Seeing as this express barely saves any time at all over the local, the only reason to run anything express is if the train is so crowded that it can't accomodate any local passengers anyway. Given that most weekend D's don't even have half their seats filled, I'd say there's more than ample room for local passengers.
If the D ran express nights but not weekends, then the CPW local would have better service at night than during the day on weekends!
Some posters seem to be treating an express as a measure of status. By "taking away" an express, I'm threatening to reduce the dignity of Concourse passengers. That's nonsense, and anyone who feels otherwise should see a psychiatrist. An express is no better and no worse than a local; it's just a train, after all.
And regardless of how Concourse passengers feel, they're worth no more than any other subway passenger. The question of whether the D should run local or express is not one that depends on the needs of Concourse passengers alone but one that depends on the needs of all subway passengers who use or might consider using the D.
The D's running time is increased by about about 8% if it runs local. I've had trip times inflated by 182% because the D doesn't run local. (That's 11 minutes running time from 86th to 34th, plus 20 extra minutes waiting because two D's went by while I was waiting for a C.) More typical inflations are about 55% (average of 6 minutes extra waiting for an 11-minute ride). Why is 55% to a CPW passenger worth less than 8% to a Concourse passenger?
1. Modify its 2004 plan to make the B (West End, Concourse/CPW local) run 24/7 and the D (Brighton, Concourse/CPW express) run weekdays only, for the reasons presently cogently by David G.
and
2. Terminate midday M service at Broad rather than Chambers, for the same reason you gave.
I received a polite response that the matter would be passed on for consideration to senior members of Operations Planning and NYCT.
Not much time is left. You should e-mail NYCT immediately.
I emailed this suggestion to NYCT and got back a form response. My impression is that somebody's keeping count, and if this is a popular enough suggestion, it'll happen. If you think this is a good idea, please tell NYCT -- ASAP, before the 2004 routings are set in stone. You can send email from the MTA website, or you can write a letter if you prefer.
I've noticed that in recent months the D has been running local on CPW [I know that is was done to replace C service] but a few times though it ran local WHILE running with the C and A's running express and service was normal so I have that impression too. But then again would Concourse riders feel cheated out of a express thinking that 8 Av riders have this "luxury" while they do not? We have to look at that too.
Practically though there is only one CPW local on weekends. For those at the stations along CPW the expresses might as well be bound for the moon. They do not benefit them any. Now in most cases there would still be a benefit to riders who were on the express but on CPW it seems mostly insignificant considering the time that the express saves.
"But then again would Concourse riders feel cheated out of a express thinking that 8 Av riders have this "luxury" while they do not? We have to look at that too."
I think the placement of your quotation marks around "luxury" speaks most clearly to what is really at issue. Maybe back in the old days the CPW Express saved alot of time (did it?) but it certainly does not do much today.
The CPW has slowed down a bit since the 80's due to the timers but I don't know if it saved more time [it should have]. The issue is that D riders would feel cheated & slighted by the fact that they have to endure longet traveling time (from the RF mind however, we know it really isn't so). Face it, riders go crazy if they lose their express service.
And a one, and a two, and a three:
You must take the
Maybe back in the old days the CPW Express saved alot of time (did it?) but it certainly does not do much today.
And a one, and a two, and a three:
You must Take the A Train
To go to sugar hill way up in Harlem
If you miss the A Train
You’ll find you missed the quickest way to Harlem
Hurry – get on now it’s coming
Listen – to these rails a humming – all board
Get on the A Train
Soon you will be on sugar hill in Harlem
I guess things have changed.....
The downside to running it on the local track is that through passengers between 6th Avenue and Concourse lose three minutes, while seated on a climate controlled R-68.
The downside to running it on the local track is that local passengers between 59th and 145th have only the C, and local passengers coming from or going to 6th Avenue or Concourse have to transfer.
How would the CPW local end up with 4-5 minute headways in any case? Headways on the C are 10 minutes at best on weekends, and much of the day on Sunday they're at 12 or more. That's adequate in Brooklyn, but CPW has greater demand.
If Concourse riders feel cheated over an issue like this, they should visit their psychiatrists. The subway is a transportation system, and if the best way to transport the masses is to run the D local on weekends, then the D should run local on weekends.
While the CPW local is doing fine with one train; the C; does it need 12-13tph? I know it has been done in the past when the B ran to 145 St on the weekends.
If Concourse riders feel cheated over an issue like this, they should visit their psychiatrists. The subway is a transportation system, and if the best way to transport the masses is to run the D local on weekends, then the D should run local on weekends.
While it seems logical to do such a thing, I have skepticism to whether it will really work IMO.
They sound like basket cases as bad as the Lefferts Branch riders who seem to dictate service patterns for the entire Rockaways. Every time it is mentioned to send the C to terminate at Lefferts, and have all A service to the Rockaways (thus increasing service at Howard beach-JFK), we hear the argument that "Lefferts Riders would feel cheated because they would loose Fulton express service".
Geez, this psychiatric phenomenon must be some sort of condition that affects people that live on the outskirts of the CPW line.
Hehe, yeah I love how they "appeased" the Rock Park riders with that: "Yeah, we'll take away your direct C train local service, and replace it with a shuttle all day, but give you two or three direct A expresses at Rush Hour."
Now THAT'S a good trade-off. They managed to do it though.
Lefferts riders don't realize that they would actually have better service with the C local, than they currently have with the "half" A service at 20 minute headways. All they hear is, "We're losing the express!". It would make so much sense to send all A service to the Rockaways, and all C service to Lefferts. This would eliminate the A confusion of the A going to two seperate terminals, especially since a lot of tourists use the A because of JFK. It would also increase service to JFK once AirTrain opens. Actually, all A's don't need to go to Far Rockaway. The former Lefferts A's could terminate at Howard Beach-JFK, which could surely use better than 20 minute headways. Far Rock doesn't need full A service.
1. Less stairs to climb up.
2. Less travel time on the B15 than the Q10
3. More frequent train service.
But there is a double edged sword to this, there will be more confused people going TO Aqueduct-North Conduit station, thinking that the B15 to JFK stops there when if fact it does not.
I could see taking away the RP Shuttle, and have every other A train serve both Rockaway branches from 6 AM to 9 PM Monday-Friday. After 9 PM weekdays, and all weekend, the shuttle to RP would operate and all A trains go to FR. What is the financial incentive to have every other A end at Howard Beach, the Shuttle to RP running, when the A can just go to either FR or RP directly? Actually, there would be one less pick because of the shuttle's dwell time for the layup outside Broad Channel station.
For this plan to be effective, NYCT would have a problem with the midday G.O.'s to the Rockaways. Does that mean that all A trains would go to Lefferts, the C cut back to Euclid?
And as for Daivid's prediction of Lefferts being a more used terminal because of the cost of AirTrain when it opens...actually, the C would still service Lefferts better and more frequently than the "half" A does. We just have to convince them that the C comes more frequently, and is not much slower than the A.
But then we have the problem of that psychiatric condition that affects Concourse and Lefferts riders, that started all this.
On nice sunny days, they change at Rockaway Blvd, on lousy weather days, it's Grant or Euclid. Simple.
It's only in the non-rush that it makes any sense to replace the Lefferts A with an extended C.
I don't see any diamond E. and where is that come from?? Any Pic??
Increasing C service also puts more service than is probably needed along 8th Ave-the E joins the line at 50th Street and the A makes most stops too on this stretch of the IND (I do not know enough to comment on the Fulton line weekends).
The other alternative to increase local service along CPW (which should really be read as service period-the expresses skip right past) would be to run 4 full-time services along CPW-2 express and 2 local but this costs more and the MTA seems unwilling to consider a weekend Brighton Express and I assume is against running a 145th Street to 2nd Avenue service too on weekends.
Thank you for raising the additional point of IRT crowding. The 1 is often SRO before 9am on Sundays, and it only gets more crowded as the day progresses. I know a number of people who live closer to the IND than the IRT but who walk the extra distance to the IRT on weekends so they don't have to put up with the C. Improving CPW service would certainly reduce IRT crowding.
That's exactly what I did in the late 80s. I was living on Columbus and 89th and taking the 1 was always faster than the you-never-know-when-it-comes K. Weekdays rush hours, when the entrance at CPW and 88th was open, I took the B/C.
The fact that the K was run off hours with 4-car R-42s with at least one car with its lights out and broken A/C was not inviting either.
The 88th Street entrance is now open most of the day, including weekends, although its hours are somewhat more limited than the signs state (I recently arrived there on a Sunday morning as it was being opened, even though the signs claimed it should have already been open for a few hours).
There must be "Subfan Syndrone" in the air there causing railfanism, similar to the "Concourse-Lefferts Syndrone" that affects people along those line causing "Localaphobia".
Look at the location, right near the premiere* IRT line and the premiere^ IND line!
*Note: I may have used the wrong word here, but I can't dwell on this any longer. Greenberger can correct me, but what I am trying to say is "the most celebrated."
^Note: I may have used the wrong word here, but I can't dwell on this any longer. Greenberger can correct me, but what I am trying to say is "the meat and potatos."
BTW, I only lived there for a year or two. I've been an East Village resident for the last 14 years. But had I not lived on the UWS at the time, I've probably missed the chance to ride on R10s in regular service.
Was 87th Street exit-only? It is now.
Two HEETs and an MVM are much better than what we had back then. Same goes for Bleecker St. downtown on the 6 (which is one of the stations I use now). Between rush only token booth and MVM/HEET there was a long enough period that it was exit only including the time when the only entrance was on Broadway.
The only bit I don't understand is why many entrances with HEET's are locked up at night.
I'm just saying that, even if they were warranted, they'd cause problems in the coming years.
Of the three CPW routes on weekends, one is rarely crowded. There's no need for a fourth, only for a reevaluation of how that underused route could better serve the line.
So if there's any special summer express service specifically to handle the crowds between Manhattan and Coney Island, the Sea Beach is where it belongs.
If the idea is simply to better handle crowds on the Brighton line, perhaps a simple summer Q service boost is warranted.
The N super-express idea is also a good option. The two problems is that it's a mostly single track now and it doesn't transfer to the shuttle. CI is also pretty popular on summer weekend evenings. You can have a good number of riders riding to and from CI at the same time. While the Sea Beach Super Express is quicker, it can only go in one direction.
I remember comparing figures that Subtalker David (not to be confused with David G.) posted some time ago with weekday vs. weekend ridership figures for individual southern division stations. My impression was that Brighton Beach station had an unusually greater proportion of weekend ridership vs. weekday ridership than other stations. Hence, I suspect this has to do with the beach being close by and of course that would mean greater summer ridership (I believe that not too many individuals would head out to Brighton Beach on a winter weekend).
Even if there is enough ridership to support weekend express service (which nobody here -- including me -- has the numbers to prove), there are so many diversions anticipated (such as for station rehabilitation work that hasn't started yet) that the service would almost never run as designed.
David
Sure the Sea Beach may be the faster option to CI but the summer weekend Brighton express plan is more realistic and the Sea Beach has the least ridership of the four lines heading there to begin with.
Won't work why b/c the C via Fulton local doesn't really justify a increase in C service although would making the C a 10 car line possibly change things around? [I know that is not possible now]. Also making A trains 6 tph, the two branches in Queens would run at late night headways [20 minutes] all day but you MAY be able to get away with it on the D.
For Wash Heights/Grand Concourse i suggest following subway service:
(A)207 St -(Express Man & Brooklyn 8 Av all times except nights)-Eucild
-(all times)-Rockaways
(B)207St-(nights)-168St-(Local 6Av; Express 4 Av West End)-CI
(C)205St-(nights;weekends)-Bedford Park-(rush hour;nights;weekends)-145St
-(all times Local 8 Av)-Lefferts
(D)205St-(rush hour peak express;middays local)-145St-(6 Av Express
Brighton Express)-BB
On late nights there will be the same line letters on the Local stations between 145St and Euclid (all times C instead of late nights
A) and there are running more trains to the Howard Beach/JFK
When I'm on an unlimited, I do cross 8th Avenue to transfer from the C to the E, but I'm rarely on an unlimited these days.
This question reminded me of how 18th St./7th Ave. was exit only, late hours. No entry from outside to the downtown platform. The sign at the entrance told you to go to the nearby 14th St. station. What made things even worse was that sometimes the exits would be locked as well and you couldn't get out. You had to wait until the next #1 to come. A friend of a friend of mine got so scared that the next train won't come soon enough so he walked on the tracks to get to 14th. (heard story, I wasn't there)
Why were 42nd and 59th built with underpasses but not 50th, 66th, 79th, or 86th? (I don't know about 91st. 66th has one now, but it's at the south end, which wasn't part of the station until it was extended in the 50's.)
Grand Central (4,5,6) has an underpass because it is part of the passages to the 7. The original station, now the Shuttle station, had an overpass, which is still there.
And getting back to the Times Square underpass, if you want to see a fully operational one of similar design, go to 96th St (1,2,3,9). They're still using parts of the side platforms too.
D
I would assume that Grand Central of all stations should have had them, especially since i assume they were installed to avoid crowd control. Now 72nd with it's narrow platform seems like another prime candidate, so local and express passengers did not have to mix. Also the use of locla platforms would discourage people from switching from the local to the express, thus also avoiding unnecesary foot traffic (although you need somewhere where cross the platform transferring was available, but logic would seem that neither 72nd st nor Grand Central would have been the logical choices, what with 7nd st being narrow, and Grand Central being inherintly busy already.
Maybe there were (and still are) basements of buildings on the other side of the walls at GC and 72nd. There could have been structural problems relating to those buildings that would have prevented putting up side platforms.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Maybe some of them were closed down over the years but it also could of been done to collect extra revenue perhaps....... That's my guesses
There are several underpasses still open:
Cortland St/BMT
Dykman St/IND
Nevins St/IRT
IS the one at Myrtle/Willoughby (IND G) still open?
Other existing underpasses, still open:
66/Broadway
34/7
34/8
23/8
Spring/8
59/Lex local (still open, even though it's superfluous now)
Fulton/G (the only fare control is on the SB plat)
I remember the one at Columbus Circle. There was also an alternate route from the IND to the NB IRT, closed at the same time.
Wild guess: something beneath the tunnel, be it existing utilities, rock, unsuitable soil, made the construction of underpasses at some stations difficult or too costly.
Alright.. Now I Know what WAS there.. but was it for the SHUTTLE Tracks when they were actually used as the original IRT?
And what is the line that runs directly below the old crossunder? The N/R? Anyone else have any other photos?
Also.. were the Glass light blocks ALWAYS there, even when the cross under was there?
There was never another line under the crossunder. The glass bricks were probably there to illuminate the crossunder itself.
That sounds logical to me. Most of the original 1904 stations were illuminated to an extent with natural light. Almost all of them had vault lighting to bring in light from outside. If you look at any of the photos of the original stations from when they opened you will see they are lit with natural light (at least partly).
The line that runs underneath is the Broadway BMT (known today as the N and R lines). You can see evidence of the underpass between the Times Square and 34th Street BMT Broadway stations, as the downtown local track dips down to a lower level than the other 3 tracks for a brief stretch before returning to the same level. This, I believe, was to make room for the underpass at IRT Times Square.
I don't know if they were there prior to 1918. I doubt it. The stairway probably looked the same as the one that still exists on the station's far side.
I know you meant wall platforms. :)
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
So maybe THIS is what leads to that fenced up DARK staircase near
the nb end of the nb local shuttle track.... recall there is a stairwell
to the LEFT of fare control entry on the S which has black bar gates
up and you can peek down it into the darkness....
Guess that patched up gagga leads to this dark stairway on the other side of the tracks.
$1 to Harry Beck.
That exactly right. The passageway ceased to be needed once shuttle operations commenced in 1918 and it was partially converted to carry utility lines. The south stairway was intact except sealed at the top as of 1964.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
None of the shuttle station has been rehabbed yet -- except for that closed up staircase, which is part of the entrance that was temporarily closed for rehab a few months ago.
Track 2 is the 4th track of the shuttle (the former southbound express track).It was intact until relatively recently, about 20 years ago. It was possible until that time to lay up equiptment there but I can't recall actually seeing a train on it.
The Track 4 platform at Times Square is one of the last which is still its original configuration or very close to it. If you would like to see how short the local platforms of the first subway where this is the place to go.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
b) It in convienient to the dispatchers both at GCT which is between tracks 1 and 3.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
These are the low res versions, since the high res versions average 1.6K each.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
http://groups.msn.com/NYCSubwayMiscellany/car1391.msnw?albumlist=2
wayne
Adam
My website, www.orenstransitpage.com will not be updated while I am gone but you can enjoy the new pictures, taken on the BusTalk DC trip from last week.
... the bridge flip!
BTW in Japan, conductors have to go through voice training like old time radio announcers, so their voices go through clearly. A tradition kept from the old days when PA systems sucked.
Next is the "Flip flop knick knack paddy whack give a dog a bone, this old train comes rolling home."
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
On my way down to Stillwell, I spotted it running up the Sea Beach towards Manhattan, but a few minutes later it pulled into track 7 at Stillwell. I don't know what the holdup was.
I've used PATH twice since Exchange Place reopened. The first time I had no idea that the PATH service had changed. If I understand it right, there is a service that goes from Hoboken to Exchange Place "terminal" at which point crews change ends and take the train to Newark or Journal Square. It's just that the map doesn't seem to signify that to me. I picked up the Port Authority newsletter from the end of June. Although it was devoted to the changes in service, nowhere did it give a simple explanation that if you wanted to go from Hoboken to Newark, you need to take the train to Exchange Place and stay on it. Mostly it touted the ferry service from Exchange Place to downtown New York area, which I suppose is what people needed to know.
And finally, on my trip last week, I was riding around Hoboken and was happy to discover that United Decorating at 421 Washington Street was up and running again. The business was established in 1899 and is now in its 3rd generation. I first went in there about 3 or 4 years ago. At that time, the owner, George Kirchgessner, was opening it only on Saturdays, as his wife was ill. Sadly both he and his wife died with the last 3 years. It is a very unique store, which originally sold flags, pennants, costumes and POSTCARDS.
His son, Bill, is currently operating it with the help of Jim,a friend of his father. I was happy to discover that the post card collection is still there. I mention all of this, because I saw some Hudson Tube cards that I had never seen in the stock of some of the postcard dealers at the monthly New York postcard show. Both times I was there, I've had some very down to earth and enjoyable talks with both men. If anyone is interested in Hoboken, Jim is an avid collector of all Hoboken materials. They are now closed only on Wednesdays and Sundays. The stop has been remodeled some. I liked it when it had its older look.
So, if you're into postcards, or just want to get a glimpse of a business on Washington Street that has spanned 3 centuries, stop in.
So this store you went to sells postcards with old photos the H&M? Are they photos that aren't available to view on the web at one of the many websites that have photos of the H&M? If so I might just go over there and pick some up. Wait, I guess they would be expensive, right, if they are rare...?
When I first start buying cards maybe 5 years ago, the dealer warned me that I could get hooked on an expensive hobby. I find it relaxing looking through the cards. There is a regular monthly postcard show at the New Yorker Hotel at 34th Street & 8th Avenue on Sundays from 9 am to 4 pm. Next one up is August 10th. The name of the club is the Metropolitan Post Card Collector's Club.
On a personal note. I was selling some postcards about 2 years ago on Ebay. I sold a card of the original City Hall station for about $2 to a woman in Austin Texas. I asked her what interested her about the card. From that question, a friendship has developed. Carol has visited New York many times since then and we are very close. We talk everyday on the phone, thanks to unlimited long distance calling plans.
Did one of those shows, just because a friend wanted to go. Was impressed at how many venbdors were there with tables. Found a Post Card from Middletown CT to Branford CT with a trolley going down main street.
Speak for yourself, mister. We hardly "ALL" cheered. There were many of us that were quite angry when the roll back order was initally announced.
After the fare hike, the new fare is $1.67. That is only $0.17 more than the fare of $1.50, before the MetroCard discounts were started way back when. The new fare is ($10 for 6 rides using the $10 Metro Card). The only aspect of the fare increase I don't agree with is the $7 FunPass unlimitted. That is no longer the phenominal deal the $4 one was.
So basically, in summary, no one likes a fare increase, but I don't feel it is unjustifyable seeing that we are only basically paying $.17 more per ride than we were paying in the mid-90's.
I did. I can't find a flaw in the reasoning. Can you? The judges concluded that the MTA didn't hide any information from the public, and that even if it did, the law didn't require that the MTA disclose that information to begin with.
The task of the court was to determine if the fare hike violated the law, not if New Yorkers would be happy about it.
$1.67 per ride, including free transfers, is a good deal, for many riders a better deal than what they had ten years ago. And $70 for a 30-day unlimited is practically a giveaway.
I shied away from the $63 card because unless I used it almost every day I just about broke even. I stuck with the PPR cards.
Now, since the average work month is around 20 days (Monday to Friday) I save at least $10 a month. (20 days @ $4 a day = $80). If there are more work days for me in that month or I use it on the weekends I save even more. (Let's not get into the $1.67 per ride bit with the PPRs - OK)
Now let's see what kind of arrangement they will work out with PATH.
If they work it out well, I could save another $60 or so a month.
If PATH totally integrates with the MetroCard, it will be the best thing in the world. However, they may just make an additional card, like the Express Bus MetroCard, that includes PATH, and then it won't help me one bit for casual PATH railfanning.
With the current fare structure, one pays $20 each week and after three weeks accumulates a total of 6 extra rides, to be used on the first three days of week #4. One can then buy 6 rides for the next three days for $10 (total spent: $70), this leaves one day. With an unlimited ride card, that extra day is completely free and if one day is lost (either because of a holiday or starting use on a Friday) then one breaks completely even.
So if you truly NEVER use a Metrocard except to go to work and back, you're still better off with a PPR, at least in many months.
However most people also do some personal errands, thus justifying the monthly.
Chuck Greene
Umm....isn't the MTA a governement agency?
Peace,
ANDEE
And it definitely would include what Anon_e_mouse once saw a woman do on the Dyre Avenue line :)
Sometimes this is unavoidable.
Peace,
ANDEE
Overall, I found the tone of today's Tunnel Vision article to be silly. My sudden return to Subtalk is an attempt to interest Randy in writing yet another chapter of my exploits.
2. Seat to relinquish:
No person seated in any subway car shall ingnore, or fail to offer his/her seat to a eldery person, a woman in her second or third trimester of her pregnancy, or a person visually disabled (i.e. person holding a cane, crutch, walker, guide stick, or guid dog), if that person is within seeing distance from said person.
Violation of this rule, will result in a 1 day sentence to ride the Lexington Ave express lines on a continous basis between Brooklyn Bridge and 125th st between the hours of 7 AM to 10 AM and from 4 PM to 7 PM, except that such sentence shall not be carried out on Saturdays, Sundays, and and Hoildays in effect.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope it doesn't come to it, but I will be there with my video camera recording Dougie as he chains himself to the old-fashioned radiator. Of course he would do that only to be able walk off it after the station house is demolished. He complained to me recently that he was pretty chilly this winter in his observation tower overlooking Central Brooklyn.
avid
Has it ever stopped at 76th Street?
I think it's only stops are its origination at platform 9 3/4 at King's Cross Station in London and it's terminal at Hogwarts itself. At 76th street you catch the train to one of America's magic schools. I'm not sure where they are. Some say there's one in Orlando, more reliable sources say New Orleans.
Mark
Mark
: )
Mark
Unless I am mistaken, the HWE engine is a Dutchess class 4-6-2 that as built had a tender carrying 10 tonnes of coal.
You *are* mistaken. It is a Great Western Railway 'Hall' class 4-6-0, though disguised as the rather similar 'Castle' class as Hogwarts Castle. It *is* coal-fired. I think (though I may be mistaken) that the only oil-fired steam locos in the UK are on the narrow-gauge Festiniog Railway in North Wales - they converted their locos to oil-firing to avoid the problem of sparks causing lineside fires, among other reasons.
This piece was published in one of the british newspapers:
(A day return trip on the Hogwarts' express - Daily Mail - 7th December 2001)
A day return trip on the Hogwarts' express
IT'S the train that is never cancelled, never dirty and never runs late, so it must be magic.
But then the Hogwarts Express isn't a scheduled service it is the amazing loco that transports Harry Potter to the school of wizardry where his famous adventures begin.
In the film, the steam engine's official name is the Hogwarts Castle, but in reality it is No 5972 Olton Hall a 4-6-0 built for the Great Western Railway in 1941, as all trainspotters will know.
Yesterday, it was given a run out on a more mundane line than the one which runs to Hogwarts Academy from the mythical Platform 93/4 at King's Cross in the JK Rowling book on which the film is based.
Engineers were testing it on the less mystical but still decidedly scenic trip from Carnforth in Lancashire to Carlisle, before filming starts on the sequel to Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. The train is owned by West Coast Railway and is normally green but was painted red for the film.
The piece finishes with this:
It is used to take passengers on nostalgic trips back to the age of steam, though not literally, of course it's not really magic.
An obvious lie...But don't tell the Warner Bros legal department that I said so!
Andrew.
I just hope the extreme hype for the add-ons doesn't kill interest in the original books.
Ah ha, whoops, my bad.
The train is owned by West Coast Railway and is normally green but was painted red for the film.
This explains my confusion.
WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY AND HARRY POTTER
Many inquiries have been made concerning our involvement with the above film. West Coast Railway Company supplied the engine and all carriages for the film.
The engine used was originally GWR "Hall" Class 4-6-0 No.5972 "Olton Hall". Built at Swindon in 1937, No.5972 "Olton Hall" was one of a class of 330 versatile mixed traffic locomotives, designed by Charles Collett for the Great Western Railway.
No.5972 is now set to find new fame as the "Hogwarts Express" locomotive in the Warner Brothers' film of the phenomenally successful Harry Potter stories. Renamed Hogwarts Castle" and repainted into fictitious Hogwarts Railways bright red livery, No.5972 appeared in the first session of filming at Goathland, on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. More filming took place at Kings Cross (on "Platform 9 3/4") in early 2001, taking No.5972 further into new territory. Later in 2001, filming began for the second Harry Potter film, shot at Glenfinnan in the West Highlands of Scotland.
The exterior scene in The Chamber of Secrets was filmed outside St Pancras, which is much more photogenic (George Gilbert Scott of The Royal Albert Hall and the Albert Memorial designed it). This is noted in the IMDB trivia for the movie.
John
Since Kings X and St Pancras are right next door to each other, it is perfectly reasonable for someone arriving to board a train at Kings X to be shown outside St Pancras, which I agree is more photogenic.
wayne
Mark
Andrew.
In the signalbox in question there are a set of levers that throw themselves by magic when the HWE enters the approach block (sort of how the old B&O Rave tower workes(d) after it was unmanned. The HWE is detected by something akin to the IDENTRA system employed on the 7 and BSS.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
N/B
Borough Hall to Bowling Green
Brooklyn Bridge/CH to 14th st
14th st to 42nd st
Grand Central to 59th st (too short)
86th st to 125th st
S/B
125th st to 86th st
86th st to 59th st after the timer, it's quick.
Bowling Green to Borough Hall (what an uphill, how do these trains do it? One of the steepest and longest uphills in the syatem.)
Short distance, but speedy :-).
Bowling Green to Borough Hall (what an uphill, how do these trains do it? One of the steepest and longest uphills in the syatem.)
I was wondering myself but it may have a small downgrade which enables the trains to go at a faster speed.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
- Carry babies and strollers on stairs.
- Carry babies and FOLDED strollers on stairs.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=529429
Now do we count those as #8 & #9 or 8A & 8B or 8 & 8A?
It is just like the three differnts versions of the card that came you a few years agao for "New York Unversity". There are three different font sizes with the same wording for them.
Other MC with Differnt versions that I have are:
Jackie Robinson 50th avaversey. W & W/O the Queens County Bank logo.
AT&T had one year 12 different cards. Two different saying.
1) Order now and get 11 subway rides.
2) Order now and get 20 minutes.
Each one came on a Black and White card amd a full Color card. Then there were two different Offer Expires date of both versions one was 3/21/00 and the other was 5/21/00. And lets now forget the Spenish cards of each.
I know there were more cards w/differents verision but I won't type the all in.
Robert
The Emigrant series had black vs. brown photos. The NY University one was good example of mfg. sloppyness that resulted in three very different cards. The Health City card with the graph of people is another good one, where there were differences in the folks who made up the graph on the left side.
Just like stamps or coins, the variations make the hobby that much more enjoyable. So far I have been able to amass a large collection by trading vs. buying, THAT I'm very proud of. My best trade was the original set, of four, in the envelope, with Peter Stangl's letter. What did I give, oh about five or six cards, including a orange Transfer.
Turns out he is a career criminal with 34 convictions, 14 different names, 10 different dates of birth and 20 different addresses.
Check out these facts and others:
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/1173.htm
I will put in the text below:
SUBWAY PET PEEVE
By JOHANNA HUDEN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 22, 2003 -- LAST week, the papers (including this one) all reported about Angel Melendez, the subway "musician" arrested for having a kitten in the subway.
The Legal Aid Society cried foul (and called the media): Why was dear Mr. Melendez arrested and held for some 40 hours over a wee little unrestrained cat?
The answer is he's a violent, homeless criminal who was probably using the kitten to garner more attention and money for himself, that's why.
His lawyer from Legal Aid didn't mention his 34 convictions, 14 different aliases, 10 different dates of birth and 20 different addresses.
What you also didn't read in the news reports is that Angel refused to cooperate with police.
That's why he was held so long. While the police were portrayed as over-the-top, ticket-writing zealots, the simple fact is, this was a great bit of police work.
"It's just one of those irresistible stories - especially with a photo-ready kitten - that fits into a notion that just isn't true," says NYPD Deputy Commissioner Paul J. Browne.
And here Melendez is bitching to anyone who will listen about how unjust his 40-hour detention was.
But it took 11 hours alone just to fingerprint the uncooperative Melendez.
"You have somebody who is in violation of a relatively minor transit regulation, who gave officers a hard time and wouldn't comply with an order," Browne said.
Melendez refused to identify himself, having been a convicted felon.
"In taking those people out of the system, you're very often stopping someone who's first illegal act of the day may be fare evasion," says Browne. "In this case, it was someone with an extensive record."
None of the reports asked why the scared baby kitten was returned for further exposure to the elements of New York City's streets, subways and homeless population - simply as a tool to get money.
Notice how you rarely see "street musicians" - code word for beggars - or panhandlers with adult animals or older children: The younger and cuter, the more coins likely to be thrown their way.
But here's a man keeping a live animal in the subway system. He shouldn't be rewarded with publicity and public sympathy. And the city certainly shouldn't return to him an animal that he cannot care for.
The Melendez case and the resulting press attention are reminiscent of an incident last month, in which a pregnant teenager was ticketed for sitting on the subway steps, earning herself a place on the Daily News' front page.
Here's what really happened: The young woman was with a group of in-your-face, every-other-word-is-an-obscenity teenagers of the sort that noisily take over the subway and city streets everyday when schools lets out.
We've all been bum-rushed by them - trash-talking tough teens fresh from school and ready to verbally intimidate anyone in their path.
That's why police officers were called to the Brooklyn subway station. When officers approached the group, which was sitting on the subway steps, they continued their cursing. Everyone except the six-months' pregnant teen moved.
So she was appropriately ticketed.
And, just like the kitten, she was just too photo-ready for the press to resist.
Meanwhile, the smile on Angel's face that had him looking like the cat who ate the canary probably had less, if anything, to do with the return of his poor doomed kitten - and more to do with the fact that he'd conned the city, once again.
SHEESH! Man with all of that baggage I wonder what's next.......
A Train Running On Time And in Key
Could someone explain simply how the track-side detectors work? Do the trains pass them at low speed as in a station? Do the axles have a transmitting unit that activates when the axle is hot?
I hope all the questions don't make you regret giving an answer. Thanks again.
Still, HBD's do have a fairly high false alarm percentage and I have heard is as high as 50 percent.
I don't know why they don't use a squirt bottle of water than a 200o crayon stick. A squirt bottle can more easily get into those hard to reach places and if you hear a sizzle you have a hotbox.
I'm speculating here... been too many years since I had a lesson in metallurgy... but my guess is that the sudden spot cooling from a squirt bottle could have a "brittling" effect on the metal that might cause other problems in the future... more damage than the existing overheated bearing has already caused.
Any metallurgists out there who can confirm this, or set me straight?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But have you ever tried to do that to ALL of the axels (both sides) on a 115 car coal train doing 55 mph?
The detectors here CAN do it just fine, and with a rather low alse positive rate. After all there is one of these thing to the west of town, and an eastbound train tripped by it would have to pull up east of town clear of HWY 8. I have only seen that happen once in the past several years.
The conductor has to walk the train down (mile out and a mile back) which will give the dang thing plenty of time to cool off before he finds it.
Elias
I'm glad the truth has finally come out, even though I still think that figure is even too high. It's amazing how just last week, all NJ Transit spokespeople swore up an down that ALL trainmen were extensively trained in this procedure. In my almost 5 years with the firm, not only were we never trained, but we never even touched the subject in the 5 annual rules classes I attended.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/07/21/aviation.pioneers.ap/index.html
And it still takes years to replace one escalator in the subway.
Sheesh.
It was right about that time period that experienced the fastest R-10 ride of my life, from Howard Beach to Broad Channel. That A train took off as though it had a Saturn V booster strapped onto it.
Lets hope the month of June was a fluke in the increase of crime in the subways and not a dangerous trend.
Often, this is the result of a small group of people who are repeat offenders. ID them and track them down, and your spike goes away. If I recall correctly, in several of the June incidents, arrests were made. Let's see what July looks like.
The Transit Bureau is a unit that can never get complacent. Just like airports and pickpockets: There's always somebody coming into the subway looking to make trouble. Gotta make them feel unwelcome.
...and very welcome behind some steel bars on an island called Rikers.
Well they said that was the main reason for the dramatic spikes, repeat offenders [I read it in the Daily News]. Also they say that due to increased late night ridership it gives criminals more opportunities to commit crimes.
I would also try to find nice angles from the street to shoot from. I wouldn't try to grab some video from the railfan window at this time, even if the written "policy" as stated on the NYC Transit web site says it's OK, because that still won't stop officers from issuing you a summons if they don't think it's OK. Queensboro Plaza, Woodside, 111th St, the vicinity of Shea Stadium and Corona Yard are good places.
--Mark
In emergencies, follow crew and transit police instructions; always be polite and considerate.
A summons for what? Every summons has to state the number of the law or regulation being violated. What could be cited here?
Koi
Koi
I'm sad to say it but i assume that all depends on how your hearing goes. What if (and if this happens it will be a dark day for all of us) the judge some how proves (shows you) that the law has been changed and photos/video is now illegal? Then will you still go out that afternoon? I sincerely hope it does not come down to that, and personally, IMO, I don;t think it will, since we've heard of no update to the code, but I guess we'll see. I EAGERLY await hearing the results. THIS IS THE MOMENT THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR. Finally, all of the photos/video legal vs/ illegal threads can stop and we will know the answer. THANK YOU VERY MUCH for fighting this in person and hopefully giving us the answer to a very important question.
--Mark
Koi
Even better than that, you'll have a judge's decision on the matter, dated the very same day! It's hard to argue with that.
Koi
Actually, I've had no problems taking pictures at TS (although I only took pictures while on the #7 platform) whenever I was there.
"74 St Broadway-yes there are cops at this station but if you're a quick pic taker-you can get away with it especially if you stand on the north end of the platform. Otherwise- it's at your own risk."
I've taken pictures at 74th St Broadway without any problems. This was a Sunday morning (Jun 29 to be exact), though. While I was there I didn't see any cops. And, yes, I took the pictures from the north end of the platform.
Koi
Customer Help referred me to the Freedom of Information Law office at 130 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, NY 11201.
The document is prepared by the Office of Management and Budget, MTA New York City Transit, 130 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, NY 11201. For questions or comments about the report, contact Larry Hirsch (718) 694-3078 lahirsc@nyct.com.
The data applies to each subway station and to each bus route.
Subway station and bus route ridership is given for an average weekday, Saturday and Sunday, and for the entire year.
One limitation is that a transfer station is treated as a single complex, so you cannot tell how many passengers used each line, or how many transferred between lines.
"Subway ridership" of a station is defined as the number of passengers entering the subway system at that station.
In my opinion the document is well prepared, and contains plenty of interesting data.
"Subway ridership" of a station is defined as the number of passengers entering the subway system at that station."
The second of those sentences explains the first. The only place at which passenger numbers are measured is at the turnstile. Since NYCT doesn't have exit swipes, all you can measure is how many people enter the system at any station. You can't tell how may left the station or transferred there.
making 7av 9 train 24/7 train
expansion of lex service(Does this have anything to do with the 8 sign i saw on a R62A the 8 was green like the lex lines?)
FULTON ST SUBWAY CHANGES
ALL A TO FAR ROCKAWAY
C TO LEFFERTS ALL TIMES
R44'S some to C line
Not surprised at the C to Lefferts, all A's to FR.
As for the exam do NOT expect much movement unless there is a 20/50 pension passed which likely will not happen. The completion of Manhattan Bridge and Coney Island work will cost T/O positions not create them. Yard and switcihng jobs are also under attack and few positions means less need for hiring. The demographic is also wrong for a big wave of hiring because hiring is based on retiring. A huge number of T/O in the top 300 have 6-8 years more to go before they can get 25/55 retirement. Most of them will have 25 years of service but not the age requirement as they came here in their early 20's. The top guys are the tier 1 and there are about 50 left and with 2-3 exceptions they will likely all retire in the next 2 years. The next big group was hired in the early to mid 80s (82-86) and most of the ones I know will be here another 6-8 years. And yes there are exceptions as some cleaners became T/O only 3-4 years ago after 20 years there and are retiring now but the big movement picks are not happening until the next wave of retirments will happen or retiring gets easier.
The curent list is old, they need a new one anyway, the failure rate on new classes is approching the rate of the older promotional ones, the city need money and the people talking this test are likely to be motivated due to the bad economy and there are about 800+ new c/r some of whom are 'hungry' for the job, an edge you lose once you start picking nice jobs. All good reasons to give a new test.
How so? Should that be read as suggesting that South Brooklyn service will be worse off than it currently is? Or is it a comment on split services requiring more T/O's?
Well, GSS jobs and the extended M will take a cut for the bridge. How many other spots will depend on how they run the new W service and where they layup. As an easy reference to make 6 r/t to the Bronx from CI you needed 3 crews each making 2 trips. Now you need more than 3 but not quite 4. As now you need 2 crews from CI to 57/7 and 2 crews on the north side to do the same. There were some 3 trippers on the B and there are some 4 and 5 trippers on the B and D that throw the numbers off but.... The cut in nighttime G service which everyone is waiting for would also get rid of some of the extra switching jobs at CTL
As for CI, there are 50 extra switching jobs that will go by 2005. That number covers almost every person that has enough time to retire at this moment in T/O.
As for Brooklyn the new Manhattan service will add 2-3 R trains during the rush hour or at least that is buried in the service plan document somewhere. All the long term work on the Q and weekend Bway and 6th ave GO's will make your life fun until 2007 or 8 but with the full bridge to play with they will have to use an army of GO crews lessoften to do service changes.
"making 7av 9 train 24/7 train " The #1 is already a 24/7 train (aside from the skip stop during rush). Late night #1 service is supplemented by the #2 going local.
Maybe they will increase #1 service and put the #2 back on the express.
"expansion of lex service(Does this have anything to do with the 8 sign i saw on a R62A the 8 was green like the lex lines?) "
All R62 & R62A are equipped with bullets that go up to 14. It is just the TA's way of providing for future services.
URL:http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/22/nyregion/22FERR.html
I don't know enough about car ferries, but I don't know if they're ideal for the Hudson river. They need to compete with bridges/tunnels i.e. carry thousands or tens of thousands of cars across per hour, and do it within 10 or 20 minutes. Even if you can get a ferry big enough, or enough smaller ferries, how do you load it, travel across the river, and unload it all in the span of half an hour or less? I always thought that those ferries were for places where there are no crossings, like say across the Long Island Sound from CT to Long Island.
Let me know if I'm wrong on this stuff, it's a subject that I don't really know much about.
You're not wrong. Vehicular ferries have miniscule capacity compared to a bridge or tunnel. The WA superferries only exist because Puget Sound is so wide and so deep that a bridge is not a reasonable alternative. Their capacity is peanuts compared even to the Rip Van Winkle Bridge (I pick that because it's only 1 lane in each direction).
EXACTLY! People need to start takin to public transit, and soon! I aint no environmentalist nor am I any good in science, but I can tell ya this. We've already got a big ass hole in the ozone layer and global warming is still occuring. Let either of these to continue happening, then were screwed. All these damn single drivers killin the future generations. All the carbon monoxide from the cars. Get these people outta there cars and into buses, trains, and ferries, ya got less congestion and less pollution. Ya gotta make it convinient though.
Then you should shut up.
We've already got a big ass hole in the ozone layer
Chlorofluorocarbons are already illegal to manufacture. They are rarely released into the atmosphere now. Cars don't use CFCs.
and global warming is still occuring.
This hasn't been conclusively proven. 15,000 years ago the Pleistocene Epoch ended and the world warmed considerably. Do you think this was caused by all of the greenhouse gases cavemen produced with their cars?
Get these people outta there cars and into buses, trains, and ferries, ya got less congestion and less pollution.
Ferries cause more pollution. Refer to recent Subtalk posts. Ferries suck anyway.
Well, have you ever heard of a "ferry jam?*"
*seen on a bumper sticker from NY Waterways in the early 1990's
This hasn't been conclusively proven. 15,000 years ago the Pleistocene Epoch ended and the world warmed considerably. Do you think this was caused by all of the greenhouse gases cavemen produced with their cars?
Now you're the one ignoring science.
Yes, there might be major cooling or warming of the earth totally aside from the amount of CO2 humans put into the air. That is true.
However, the following facts have extensive scientific evidence behind them:
- The CO2 in the air is increasing significantly in recent years.
- The cause for much of the CO2 increase is human activity, primarily the burning of fossil fuels.
- Under current climatic conditions, there is a direct correlation between global temperatures and the quantity of CO2 in the air (i.e., more CO2 => higher temperatures).
This does NOT mean that other factors not related to human activity can't ALSO cause global temperature changes in either direction.
The logically unsound Republican argument, which you seem to subscribe to, is that because factors other than CO2 can cause global temperature changes, CO2 produced by human activity is not causing global temperature changes.
This hasn't been conclusively proven. 15,000 years ago the Pleistocene Epoch ended and the world warmed considerably. Do you think this was caused by all of the greenhouse gases cavemen produced with their cars?"
Well, your answer's wrong. NASA and the National Academy of Sciences have concluded that global warming is a significant problem, much to the dismay of President Bush. Our fossil fuel consumption, globally, and a reduction in biomass (trees and plants) available to absorb it are at the root of the problem.
You may not like ferries, but they pollute a hell of a lot less than the SUVs they would replace.
Well, Ron, I do like ferries... but unfortunately they ARE a bigger polluter than the automobiles they replace. I was rather surprised when I read the recent studies, but it appears to be true, at least as a cumulative effect... automobiles idling while waiting to be driven on or off the ferries are a factor, as well as the exhaust from the ferries themselves.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting. I suppose it isn't possible to require drivers to shut off engines while in transit on the ferries?
Yes, it is, and that is routinely done. But the moment the ferry slides into the slip everyone starts their engine, even if they're at the very back of the ferry, and they will often leave their motors running while waiting to board the ferry as well, to keep their a/c or heat (as the season indicates) running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh, moot point. None of the Waterway or other ferries are car ferries. The island of Manhattan is extremely well situated for ferries as important transport mode. If you think they suck, fine. But the concept is alive and well. And it's good, in this day and age, to see SOMEONE actually make a profitable business out of "mass transportation". Amazing, actually. Go, Arthur!!
Passenger ferries are still a fairly small niche relative to other forms of transit, but it's hard to believe that a passenger ferry carrying 300 people pollutes anywhere near as much as 300 cars.
Well.....You could take LI Sound and 2 of the current LI Sound ferries, bridgeport-Port Jefferson and Newlondon-Orient Point. There have been studies for a bridge for both routes, as well as other routes. New Haven-Wading River was may favorite. However, a ferry could do just as well. Even better would be car ferries following almost all of the proposed routes. That way its like they built all the bridge options for the price of wut, 2 bridges at the most? So there ya have it, ferries are cheaper to implement, are more environment friendly than all the cars/trucks/buses they hold, and work well. Why not have ferries?
I like ferries, but for anything other than lightly-travelled routes or routes where a bridge would be too risky an investment (such as North Carolina's Outer Banks and northwestern Washington state) they really aren't a particularly good solution.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm. So, how would you classify Manhattan ferries? BTW, "...routes where a bridge would be too risky an investment..." is a very large group. It would seem that in many urban waterfront areas ferries are indeed, a perfect solution to matters of commuting and intra-city travel.
As passenger ferries, which definitely have a significant role in transportation.
This discussion has been about auto ferries.
That was exactly my original point, that you seemed to be disagreeing with: that except in places like Puget Sound, ferries will always carry miniscule numbers of cars relative to bridges and tunnels.
I sometimes daydream of the TA's putting a ramp at the end f the #1 line so that the IRT train can roll onto a ferry, be carried across the water to St. George, then roll down the Staten Island Railway. We'd have to add platform extenders, though.
It's just a daydream.
#1 train on the ferry is a cute idea, but it would be tough. For one, the platforms in Staten Island are designed for B-division sized cars, which would leave pretty big gaps when the IRT trains come rolling.
Gap fillers?
Chip
That is a seriously dumb allegation. NY Waterways' 48 ferries are a minute proportion of the world's ferry fleet.
Unlike subway trains, ferry boats are highly portable commodities. The track (H2O) they run on is pretty well standardised.
It would be the work of minutes to lift a ferryboat the size of those NYW uses onto the deck of a container ship in Hong Kong or Sydney or any of the many other cities in the world that have sizeable ferry fleets. A month later it will be in New York.
I had to drive to York PA via US 30 today, and was stuck in traffic near a very strange looking vehicle. It looked like an elongated motorcycle, but it was completely enclosed. Even the headlight was inside the windshield. It was yellow and white, and the lettering appeared to be "Super eeo".
When it stopped at traffic lights additional wheels, similar to training wheels on a bicycle dropped down from each side at the rear to hold it upright. The operator, completely inside this thing, steered it with handlebars. It was very quiet running, certainly not a Harley.
I had never seen anything like it before.
Is this some sort of new air-conditioned motorcycle?
See http://www.didik.com/shark.htm
Paul, this looked more like an elongated motorcycle that was enclosed. It made sounds as if it were gas operated, but quieter than a Harley. It was much softer, like a Honda. The extra wheels were on arms on either side of the rear wheel, and the arms holding the wheels swung down as it came to a stop. I could not tell if the arms swung automatically, or if they had to be activated by the driver.
Traffic was too heavy for me to get a really good look. It was in the next lane, and most of the time I saw it from the rear. I wish I had had a camera with me, because no one is going to believe I saw it.
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Ecomobile/Peraves_Ecomobile.htm
I hope that the Ecomobile is what Karl saw, otherwise I fear he is going mad.
I can't tell you how strange it looked on the road. It's a wonder that cars weren't running off the road because of drivers gawking at it.
Thanks for solving the mystery!
When you're inside waiting at a traffic light? :(
It was indeed a Peraves Super Ecomobile with a top speed of 165 MPH
It holds 13 gallons of high test gasoline. 130 HP, it gets 52 MPG at 60 MPH
Kevlar carbon fiber shell is three times stronger than a typical car.
Seats two with the passenger sitting right behind the driver.
Over 7 cubic feet of rear cargo space.
ABS brakes with optional A/C
It has a 9'6" wheelbase with a 12'3" overall length.
With stabilizer wheels extended it is 4'9" wide and 4'9" high.
I still think it is the strangest looking vehicle that I have ever seen.
SHEESH! Man with all of that baggage I wonder what's next.......
Next question: what LOCAL station (on only one line) has the most entrances/exits? I nominate Lafayette Ave (C train), with 9 (yes, 9!) separate entrances/exits.
runners up:
Grand Central (4/5/6/7/S)
34 St/Herald Sq. (B/D/F/N/Q/R/V/W/PATH)
Chambers St-WTC/Park Pl. (A/C/E/2/3)
Hmmm, I just thought about that, and the original post. There are countless stations that have only one exit from the platform through the mezzanine. However the original post mentioned that two stairways from the same mezzanine count as two exits. Most of these (such as the majority of el stations having only one in use mezzanine, have more than one stairway leaving the mezzanine to street level).
-Only one way out:
So, this opens up a new search, which I was in accuratly stating was common. It's not as common to have only ONE way out. I can only think of Metropolitan Ave (M), Wilson Ave, Rockaway Pkwy (L) off-hand, but I'm sure there are more that have only ONE way out.
Any other current candidates>
-And a sub-category, Only one fare control area, right from it's original layout:
Many stations now have only one mezzanine in use, but the majority had more than one at one time. How many stations always only had ONE fare control area, right from the beginning. I know many lost their second fare control areas over time, but what stations only had one right from the beginning?
I can think of:
Seneca Ave (M)
Metropoliatan Ave M)
Rockaway Pkwy (L)
Any others?
Peace,
ANDEE
Lenox Terminal (3)
Roosevelt Island (F)
York Street (F)
Far Rockaway (A)
Rockaway Park (A/S)
Broad Channel (A/S)
Howard Beach (A), once AirTrain opens
Aqueduct Racetrack (NB A)
Park Place (S)
86th Street (N)
8th Avenue (N), I think
9th Avenue (M/W)
Beverley Road (Q)
Cortelyou Road (Q)
Parkside Avenue (Q) (not sure)
If a single headhouse with exits on multiple sides counts, we also have:
72nd Street (1/2/3/9), until very recently
Clark Street (2/3)
Avenue U (N)
As for your second query, there are many, many examples. Here are just a few:
all Bronx IRT terminals (1/9/4/2/5/6)
Dyckman Street (1)
191st Street (1/9)
181st Street (1/9)
Intervale Avenue (2/5 -- the current station)
Hunts Point Avenue (6)
125th Street (1/9)
103rd Street (1/9)
68th Street (6)
Grand Street (S)
Lexington Avenue (F) -- there's a never-used mezzanine shell at the other end, though
21st Street (F)
Queensboro Plaza (N/W/7)
all Astoria line stations (N/W)
all Flushing line stations (7) between 33rd Street and 111th Street, except 74th Street
Jamaica-Van Wyck (E)
Nostrand Avenue (3)
Kingston Avenue (3)
Bedford Avenue (L)
Smith-9th Streets (F/G)
36th Street (M/N/R/W)
most West End stations (W)
(I have a strong feeling there are more stations with one mezzanine than stations that used to have two and now have one. It's just the lines you happen to be most familiar with that have lots of closed mezzanines.)
Shall we move onto stations that have one fare control area accessible to each platform?
Yes.
23/6 (F/V)
R-32.
Additional one mezzanine stations:
Brighton Line, all lettered stations, except for Avenue H (additional exit only at S/B end)
Culver Line:
Smith-9th st
Dyre Ave line:
Morris Park
Pelham Parkway
Dyre Avenue
WPR Line:
All numbered stations
Burke Ave
Allerton Ave
Intervale Ave (you mentioned that one)
Concourse Line:
155th st/8th Ave
CPW Line:
103rd st
South Ferry (1/9 lines)
You are incorrect about the Bronx stations, all underground stations on the 6 line have more than one fare control area or exit. All stations on the 2/5 lines up to East 180th st, except for Intervale, have multiple entrances/exits. (Pelham Parkway on the 2 line also has 2 fare control areas.).
South Ferry is a trick. It has had two mezzanines: the one that's open now and the one that was open until 9/11/01. They were never both open at the same time, but the station has had two mezzanines. (It also used to have a direct street exit, not through the headhouse, from the inner platform.)
Shall we move onto stations that have one fare control area accessible to each platform?
Better not, that list is endless!
I'd agree.
But Lafayette (C) is by no means a busy station, having 3600 originating riders per day, for an average of 150 per hour.
Any idea why Lafayette (C) has so many entrances? Are they arranged in groups? How many mezzanines are there?
And here's another question: are there some stations with only a single entrance/exit?
On the London Underground many stations have a single entrance hall at street level, with a single entrance from the street.
"Any idea why Lafayette (C) has so many entrances? Are they arranged in groups? How many mezzanines are there?"
It's insane. There are four at Fulton and South Portland (one at each corner) and five a block away at the intersection of Fulton, South Oxford, Hanson and Greene. At night only two entrances are open (both at the latter intersection). And even with nine entrances, not a single one is on Lafayette Avenue, the station's namesake.
There's one straight-through mezzanine with separate fare control for each direction of travel. At night half the mezzanine (the half closer to South Portland) is blocked off.
Lafayette should lend a few entrances to Fulton.
That statement of David Fairthorne's surprised me. I had always thought that one plus point that LU had over NYCS was that you can usually get into a station from both sides of a street (thus avoiding dangerous, and possibly cold and wet, crossings over busy streets on the surface). In NY, it seems to me that those who advocate closing entrances or crossovers for safety reasons (in case people get mugged in dark tunnels, etc.) forget the different danger you put people into by making them cross busy traffic to reach the only open entrance.
It is certainly the case that in London you can always get on to trains in both directions from any entrance - which *is* a plus point over New York. It is infuriating, as a tourist in NY, to go through fare control and then find that you can only catch trains going in the wrong direction. Though at least I had unlimited tickets whenever that happened to me, so it didn't cost me an extra fare.
On reflection, though, I think David Fairthorne is right. There are lots of LU stations with single entrances from the street. The really busy interchange stations in central London have multiple entrances - hence my original impression - but in outer areas, and even at the less busy central stations, there is often only one. The original stations from the early 1900s had "storefront" entrances, still very recognisable by their glazed tiles where they still exist. Russell Square on the Piccadilly Line is a good example of a more or less original station. It has only one entrance, but as it is in a quiet side street this isn't much of a problem. Sometimes the situation has been alleviated by the later construction of a "subway" - in the UK sense of the term - which connects up to an existing tube entrance on the opposite side of the street, while doubling up as a safe street crossing for pedestrians not intending to catch a tube.
An NYCS station that I have used which has a London-like arrangement is Chambers (1,2,3,9) station, where there is one mezzanine and one fare control, but street staircases on all four corners of the crossroads of Chambers and West Broadway. I used this station as a "subway" - UK sense - on occasions when the traffic was heavy.
Some busy London interchange stations have large mezzanines below street level where you buy tickets before descending by escalator to the tube lines. You can also use the mezzanines to cross the street.
Down below, corridors and more stairways connect the bottoms of the escalators to the platforms. I believe at some newer stations the escalators go right down to platform level.
At other stations the entrances are more often at street level. Some of these are quite imposing brick structures. Arnos Grove station on the Piccadilly line used to be considered an architectural gem, and others were built in the same style in the 1930's, designed to attract suburban development which they did.
Stations built (or rebuilt) in the 1930s have a very distinctive architectural style due to the architect Charles Holden, who (together with the typographer Eric Gill and the mapmaker Harry Beck) worked with Frank Pick in the 1930s to give London Transport its very stylish image, which still hasn't been completely destroyed today.
Are there any stations with NO entrances/exits?
By this I mean stations that are part of a transfer complex where to get in or out, the only way is to take a stair or ramp that leads to the platform of a different line (not a mezzanine) before you reach the street or platform of the first line?
I can think of one that used to exist until they built it a dedicated street exit.
149-GC lower level (2/5) -- before the upper level was built, there was direct access via elevator, but now the only way out is via the 4 platform
Essex Street, SB platform
50th Street IND lower level (E) -- exit via the upper level platform
West 4th lower level (F/V/S) -- exit via the upper level platform
That's all I can think of. I'm obviously missing something, since I don't know which station you're referring to.
It could be argued that it doesn't count, since some of the staircases lead to the mezzanine, on the same level as the platform but a good distance back. But I won't tell anyone if you don't.
#3 West End Jeff
Besides, as I said elsewhere yesterday, 168th has an IRT mezzanine by the elevators.
Probably not. Even if the side platform has to close for an extended period, passengers exiting from the middle platform will be simply shunted to the IND exits, as they are now.
The station is part of the Fulton Street complex of stations, and it was built last. At the west end, the stairways lead to the Fulton Street station of the 4/5. At the east end, the stairways lead to the Fulton Street station of the 2/3. The J/M/Z line runs directly over the middle of the station and is also accesible from either the east or west stairways. The stations also is used as an underpass for riders transferring to/from the 2/3 and 4/5 lines, because the J/M/Z stations prevent direct access between those lines.
I've always wondered how pre-Unification era riders would access the station at Broadway-Nassau from the street without first paying an extra fare to access either the IRT or BMT areas. The way the station complex is configured today, it seems you cannot leave the station without running into either an IRT fare area or a BMT fare area.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
This has to do with the original idea behind the construction of the IND line. Most of the stations on the line have mezzanines that extend the length of the station, unless the entrance or exit is at platform level. Two exceptions are 205-Norwood and Broadway-East New York (former is built through bedrock). In addition, some stations have closed mezzanine sections (i.e., Ralph Avenue, Hoyt Street, 207 Street, Bedford Park Boulevard, etc.)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The LIRR might have been a factor, but it's still a fairly long walk from there to the Flatbush Avenue terminal.
The way that the station was built may have been aimed at the businesspeople in that area, who were the strongest advocates for tearing down the El, and building the Ashland Place connection to the BMT (a lot of the construction for that line would have taken place right by that station.
The additional access, albeit not as an express station, might have been the BOT's way of recognizing the clout that the people along Lafayette Avenue may have had in those days. As the plans for the Fulton Street Line and the various Crosstown line plans evolved, there was quite a fight as to where the Crosstown and Fulton Street lines would have connected. One group (basically, the Fulton Street business community) wanted the connection in the area of Throop Avenue. The people along Lafayette Avenue, who had been promised a subway for decades at that point (actually before the days of the Triborough Plan) wouldn't stand for that, and fought and won, possibly gaining the extra-large mezzanine and additional entrances in the process.
Look at the IND trackage. With one exception, none of the outer borough local tracks run into Manhattan. The Queens Boulevard local becomes the Crosstown line becomes the South Brooklyn local, and the Fulton local dead ends at Court. The one exception is the Concourse line, which only has express service in one direction at a time.
Thankfully, saner heads prevailed when service began running. Fulton locals and some south Brooklyn locals switched to the express track to get into Manhattan, and although all Queens locals at first ran into the Crosstown line, the connection to the BMT was built fairly early on, to allow locals access to Manhattan (and more recently, the 63rd Street connector gave locals access to the IND in Manhattan).
But there was a clear design decision on the part of some to keep outer borough locals restricted to their outer boroughs. Local passengers would have no choice but to transfer to the express to reach Manhattan.
If the Second System really included an extension from Court, then the Second System was designed by different people from the First System.
You are correct on that. Any book I've ever read stated that Court Street, as ORIGINALLY planned, was always meant to be the terminal for the Fulton Local, much like World Trade Center (aka Hudson Terminal) was meant to always be the terminal for the 8Ave/CPW local). Their reasoning being that local station people would transfer to the express at the next available express station. Just look at how the stations are set up. There is always an express station before there is no chance for a local passenger to get to Manhattan. QB local riders on the GG had Queens Plaza as the last station before the QB line goes to Manhattan (remember the 60th St tunnel was not IND), Hoyt-Schn is available for the Fulton local, 8th Ave local riders had Canal (or Chambers after getting to WTC), etc. Remember their resoning was that people would always jump off the local the first chance the got (a reson why Penn Station was built the way it was, to not "allow" them to easily do this at an already busy station).
The only place I have ever read that Court was supposed to go somewhere else, like connect to WTC, or other areas west of Court was on SubTalk. This leads me to believe that it is really SubTalk fantasy that has been talked about so much, that people started to actually think that was a plan.
Them cameras aint cheap shat.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
I see them almost everytime I go out to the Flushing line, which is once or twice a week.
Koi
Several of us have been unable to post links or photos. See my and HeyPaul's posts under
test link
When I reloaded the index, my post was there and was correct.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
PS: Brownie points for who knows who does the 4 train, and the "The next. Stop is." voices.
This should answer your question for the most part. I got this from the R142 page btw.
Thanks a lot,
Sam
As an aside, I work right next to the World Congress Center rebuilding a viaduct, you probably saw the construction while you were over there. Was the convention you went the one with a lot of hot jail-bait girls (15-18 years old)? There were hundreds of them in downtown and on MARTA last week! Too bad I'm not in high school anymore :-)
To veer off topic even more, I love working next to the World Congress Center. Last month, there was a two week national volleyball tournament and there was a lot of eye-candy in tight volleyball shorts all over the place :-)
: )
: )
Fortunately for me the National Science Teacher's Association is also meeting in Atlanta next year, and I'll get all the MARTA I can handle.
Mark
I get the feeling that not too many hot girls will be at that convention. :-)
As for the first part, Mennonites are related to the Amish, but differ in a lot of ways. Mennonites are pacifists like the Amish, but we drive cars and wear regular clothes, live in cities, etc. West Philly has a lot of Mennonites. It's probably more accurate to think of Mennonites as being like the Quakers than the Amish.
Mark
I once met a Mennonite girl. She was weeeeeeeird.
AEM7
When MARTA runs manually, do the operators release the throttle before the train comes to a stop to open the doors? I saw that several times a few years ago and found it strange.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Astor Place.
Peace,
ANDEE
Simple, someone has a cousin in the door business.
Peace,
ANDEE
We all know the R-12 white set will be a # 1 train and does anyone know what the grey ones will be signed as?
Whay about the graffiti plagued R-17 from MTH. We know the red ones will be a 6.
To date they have produced a 2,5, and 7 trains.
They are def coming out with the 1 and the 6.
SO all thats left is the 3 and 4. Any news???
What did the R-12 greys when they first come out were signed as on the system.
The decision to operate the fans in exhaust or blowing mode is also a tricky one.
I posted the article because it indicated that that the fans were actually used.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=531906
Apparently it is already being offered on ebay.
Michael
Coming to NY for the Tango Festival to dance on the Staten Island
Ferry
Here's a 5 train on the outer loop:
I guess the "geniuses" at the TA decided that the outer loop could not handle the extra traffic by allowing the #5 to make a station stop. That is surprising because back in the 1970's and 1980's #5 trains would stop at South Ferry (outer) on weekends and certain hours during weekdays.
There was even a point where the #6 would be extended to South Ferry.
On todays cars the end doors are in a different postition. Compare pictures of Lo-V's against R12s and up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The GO has been repeated a number of times over the years.
The late night version is even more interesting, since there's no late night 5 in Manhattan. The 2, not the 5, ran through South Ferry, and up the East Side to Wall Street. Then it changed ends, stopped at Bowling Green, and continued to Brooklyn via the 4.
Maybe I'll see a 5 on Thursday before I dance tango on the Staten Island Ferry.
Michael
Washington, DC
You could try to stay on a 5 train at Bowling Green. Chances are nothing bad will happen, but you may be stuck on the train for ten minutes or so (unlike at City Hall, holding a train at South Ferry inner doesn't back up the line, since 4 trains can still get through from Brooklyn). I don't think 5 crews generally have enough time to fumigate the train.
No. The inner station is closed, but the inner track is used daily by the 5 train to turn.
Michael
Washington, DC
6986-6990 delivered to East 180 Street tonight!
6981-6985 were coming into town last week.
This completes the backlogged R-142 Primary cars.
The final Option II cars arrived at Fresh Pond last week, as previously posted. That means all 1,030 R-142s are finally in NY City. Don't have delivery info onto NYCT except 1241-1245 last Friday (July 18).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does anyone know the delivery schedule???
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
Any word on when these might start showing up?
wayne
How to make a Jerome Express work
Question: How do you run regular express service on the Jerome Avenue line without screwing up service, can this be done?
Answer: Technically yes this can done, but it is not as easy as you think
You see, the Jerome line is the line of the #4 IRT, which also happens to run on the Lexington Avenue line, one of the most crowded lines in the MTA system. The #4 carries a lot of passengers on a daily basis, especially during the rush hour. Running ½ of the 4 trains express would deprive many passengers of local service between Burnside Avenue and East 149th Street. Yes the local stops are too populated to be skipped. The only way to run express service without cutting local service would be to increase the number of 4 trains.
Q: Isn't the Lexington Avenue line running to its capacity already?
A: No it isn't, the real problem isn't the capacity of the Lexington Avenue line, it is the current signaling practices. In the old days, the Lexington Avenue line ran more tph than it currently does.
Q: Couldn't the MTA just upgrade the signals?
A: Yes, but it would be too costly, not only that, but the G.O.s would cause more service cutbacks on the Lexington Avenue line, this inconviencing passengers even more.
Q: So currently upgrading the signals on the Lexington line is not the best option for running extra 4 trains, so what else is there?
A: Well the signals could be upgraded on the Jerome Avenue line to carry more trains, but still running more trains on the Lexington Avenue line is not the best idea at this moment
Q: So we can never have a Jerome express anytime soon?
A: Don't say that, it IS still possible, but this would involve some construction
Q: Signal Construction?
A: Yes, that, and track construction, you see adding more trains on the Jerome Avenue line IS a good idea, the problem is that all Jerome trains will currently run on Lexington Avenue, there needs to be another place for the extra service to go
Q: Where is that?
A: Glad you asked
You see, the #4 line does need an improvement in service, but the extra trains need to go somewhere else, like 7th Avenue, but the signals on the #4 IRT line in the Bronx need to be upgraded
Q: But how?
A: A connection to 149th Street Grand Concourse would be made by digging a tunnel from 135th Street connecting to the upper level
This would allow the #3 line to run in the Bronx on the Jerome line
From this point, you could make either the #3 or the #4 line BRONX EXPRESS, but tradition states that 7th Avenue trains are usually local, an Lexington Avenue trains are usually express, so if you followed that tradition, the #4 would be a Bronx Express.
Now again, as I said earlier the signals on the Jerome line need to be updated first
A Jerome express only works on 2 counts
1. The Lexington Avenue signals would have to be upgraded to allow more 4 trains (although Utica/New Lots could handle more trains without signal replacement) to run
2. The more practical way to do a Jerome Express would be to give it a link to another line
3. Doing a Jerome express now would mean infrequent service(unless you want to cut local service)
So there, it appears that a Lenox Jerome connection would be the BEST way to do a Jerome express(like WPR express) now all that's left is to study the plan for a few months, then start construction(after the SAS has started construction of course)
--------------------
177th Street-Cross Bronx Expressway
200th Street-Bedford Park Boulevard
238th Street-Nereid Avenue
4th Avenue-Park Avenue South
You obviously don't need to go to Kingsbridge or Inwood very often.
Why would someone be against skipping stations?
Did you ever think about the people at the stations being skipped? The 1/9 would be worthwhile if the minimal amount of time saved by the service was not completely cancelled out by the time wasted waiting for another train.
So there, it appears that a Lenox Jerome connection would be the BEST way to do a Jerome express(like WPR express) now all that's left is to study the plan for a few months, then start construction(after the SAS has started construction of course)
Your probably right on this one but the thing is you would have to start construction from the 148 St station since you cannot just close stations like before. Its a very complicated operation and right now its not broken and its doing fine so I say leave the Jerome as is [for time being]. Could a service come up in the future, sure.
http://www.museumregister.com/US/NewYork/Bronx/NewYorkBotanicalGarden/Info.html
http://www.bxtimes.com/News/2000/1012/Boroughwide_News/56.html
Fine. The following are the stops on the Broadway-Jamaica Elevated from Essex Street northward:
8th Street Eastern District
12th Street Eastern District
Brooklyn and Newtown Turnpike
Myrtle Avenue
Kosciuszko Street
Gates Avenue
Halsey Street
Chauncey Street
Jamaica Pass
Alabama Avenue
Van Sicklen Avenue
Jefferson Street
Nassau Street
Cypress Avenue
Cypress Hills
Elderts Lane
Forest Parkway
Drew Avenue-Elderts Lane
4th Street-Forest Parkway
Trotting Course Lane
Oxford Avenue
Greenwood Avenue
Spruce Street
Rockaway Road
Jamaica Village-Flushing Avenue
Oops.
I duplicated the names. I was debating whether to simply revert to the old station names or actually translate the current names.
I live in the area and I call it 200th St. so does the Botanical Garden. Sometimes I call it Corsa Avenue.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://scisun.nybg.org:8890/searchdb/owa/wwwih.pers_detail_list?this_id=27327
So what is the diamond-4 for? The same thing as the 13: it's a provision for future changes.
Where on train signage (as opposed to the map, which has an inconsistent usage) are diamonds ever used for the variety of service that all trains take at a particular time of day?
Peace,
ANDEE
Tony
I think the 4 should run express on Jerome Ave. Every fourth 4 will be a circle 4 and run local all other should display the diamond 4.
Now what do you do after rush hour, do you continue to run the 4 train express switching direction at 1pm, or do you cut back both 3 and 4 service?
Frank D
The biggest problem with #3 line (as with the #2) is it makes local stops in places that other expresses don't. And on top of that, it makes that long journey from 110 Street to 96th Street. At this point, any small advantage is killed completely.
Also, if it wasn't for the overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue line, more people probably would be using the #5 line, because it's route is straight and direct.
But there is a benefit to individuals who are traveling to the far west side. Particularly those who prefer sitting than standing. However, I think cutting back #4 service is not a good idea. Especially, when it's the only line on the eastside.
N Broadway Line
One of the expansions is very similar to what you proposed: Extend the Lenox stub end (which then ended at 145 St) thru the Lenox yard, and then connect it to the remaining portion of the 9th Ave Elevated (what would become known as the Polo Grounds Shuttle), which would go thru the tunnel and hook up with the Jerome line just north of 161 St.
Of course, the shuttle is long gone, but it existed at the time of the proposal. It wouldn't have been horribly expensive to build, even with the nickel fare and the depression.
I assume the tunnel is still there, and the remains of the stations at Sedgwick and Jerome Ave stations. There are major highways in the way now, but it still may be technically feasible, at least
Jerome Avenue could have a peak direction express, similar to the #7 line or the #6 line, if there were passenger demand for it. There isn't currently, which is why MTA doesn't offer it. When was the last time MTA floated the idea (meaning it was discussed somewhere other than hereon Subtalk)), if at all?
"Q: Isn't the Lexington Avenue line running to its capacity already?
A: No it isn't, the real problem isn't the capacity of the Lexington Avenue line, it is the current signaling practices. In the old days, the Lexington Avenue line ran more tph than it currently does.
Q: Couldn't the MTA just upgrade the signals?
A: Yes, but it would be too costly, not only that, but the G.O.s would cause more service cutbacks on the Lexington Avenue line, this inconviencing passengers even more."
An incredible oversimplification, and also wrong. Before you put a lot of effort into a long post, do your homework. You really don't know what you're talking about.
Don't know? I know that signal replacement would cause G.O.s and that the Lenox - Jerome plan is the best way to run express service. Peak express would cut the number of local trains unless they ran more #4 trains, having #3 trains(which would go to 7th Avenue) would allow for more trains to be ran.
Updating signals does cause problems, look at White Plains Road line. And yes before the Lexington line did run more trains
But you don't know why they ran more trains, and you don't know why the line is now at capacity.
1) Signals (yes, part of it);heavier subway cars
2) Merging limits
3) Upgraded safety demands not in effect in the past
4) Much more hostile legal environment
There is mixed evidence for this so far as I have seen. Some modern designs are much heavier than their predecessors (the best example I can think of and the most current could be the M-7) but going by some of the weights reported on this website, others are not. Part of the difficulty is in getting information on the weights of the older cars. Some are reported on this website (like the BMT Standard and Triplex) but this is probably too narrow a basis to say anything about.
I have done a few searches through the archives and a consensus seems to be that an overhauled R-32 train weighs about 80,000 pounds, gaining about 8000 pounds during overhaul. That is probably a few tons (2-4) lighter than the reported weight of the R-1 on this website (84,081 lbs-which may be suspicious as all of the R1/4/6/7/9 cars have the same weight) Now there are other questions which deal with higher horsepower motors, braking and weight per axle and so forth but here (as opposed to the post I reply to, where I figure Ron wants us to note this things) but I am only interested in one question here: have subway cars gotten heavier? (more broadly, have train cars gotten heavier?) Compared with something like the BMT Standard (reported weight here of 96,320 lbs.-bear in mind this car is of a 67' length too, a bit longer and much heavier than the 60' counterparts I have mentioned so far).
If I were to plot a graph of time in years versus car weight for approximately equal sized cars what would I see? Also maybe this could be a vehicle to posting what the weights of the models that are not currently listed.
I have done a few searches through the archives and a consensus seems to be that an overhauled R-32 train weighs about 80,000 pounds, gaining about 8000 pounds during overhaul. That is probably a few tons (2-4) lighter than the reported weight of the R-1 on this website (84,081 lbs-which may be suspicious as all of the R1/4/6/7/9 cars have the same weight) Now there are other questions which deal with higher horsepower motors, braking and weight per axle and so forth but here (as opposed to the post I reply to, where I figure Ron wants us to note these things) but I am only interested in one question here: have subway cars gotten heavier? (more broadly, have train cars gotten heavier?) Compared with something like the BMT Standard (reported weight here of 96,320 lbs.-bear in mind this car is of a 67' length too, a bit longer and much heavier than the 60' counterparts I have mentioned so far) and R-1 series, cars have gotten lighter or roughly remained the same in weight. There are exceptions like the one I started with too. Can we draw trends from this stuff or is it wrong to do that when each design has its own peculiar features and reducing weight may have had a higher priority at somet times than others?
There are a number of books which provide good information on subway car design and performance, including Gene Sansone's book. The MTA would provide this to you if you write and ask politely for it. Bombardier and Kawasaki publish this kind of data on their cars, and you can get it directly from them.
A "consensus" opinion of what is what on Subtalk doesn't mean anything. If you're really interested, get off your duff and do some real work.
It will also cutback into more "important" Lexington Avenue train service. The only EASTSIDE train service.
N Broadway Line
149th Street
Burnside Avenue(switches to local track)
183rd Street
Fordham Road
Kingsbridge Road
200th Street
Mosholu Parkway
Woodlawn
<3> local rush hour service may terminate at 200th Street and run straight into the yard, but I may just send it to Woodlawn instead
ALL 4 trains would start at Woodlawn going local until Burnside
the <3> trains would start from EITHER Woodlawn or 200th Street(not sure yet, but if it starts at 200th St, then it will come from the yard). If 3s don't go to Woodlawn, the 4 would have to run local, otherwise there would be no service
The construction that I mentioned would be to dig a tunnel from 135th Street to 149th Street upper level to connect to the 4 there. The 3 can also become elevated and split from the 2 and have its own level(upper) at 149th Street, then connect to the 4 tracks right before 161st Street. <3> trains would alternate with (3) trains
It's called BEDFORD PARK BOULEVARD
The only street named after Poseidon is Neptune Avenue in Brooklyn.
Also note only 1/2 of 3 service will be going to Jerome, so its not like I will be sending two whole lines on that line this plan could work, maybe I should
---
I and others have pointed out the many flaws in this plan. Please give up
---
Give up, come on, the Lenox Jerome connection itself has many benefits, allowing the #3 and #4 lines to reroute if a major G.O. comes up, I think this connection should have been made a long time ago. Now the express service needs to be worked with, but there are many Jerome people who would benefit from this, unless you think Jerome would be better off with skip stop.
Also some 6 local trains go to Pelham Bay Park while express is running there, as well(all on same track)
When the Yankees have a game, it would be easier and more comfortable to get to the game from the West Side from a <3> train, rather than wait at 149th Street for a crowded (4) train
well, the upcoming #5 service G.O.(not now, but sometime this year) would allow for extra #4 trains to run although this would be <4> and (4) instead of 3 and 4, this would be a good time to try the express, #5 service needs a replacement, running more 6 trains won't work, people would still crowd the #4, plus 149th Street Grand Concourse(Mott Avenue) will be over crowded from people transferring from the #2(no #5 service below E 180 St, could be a 24/7 Shuttle at times) express would allow the crowds to be spread out better
a cut to some stations yes, but an increase to other stations
then there is offpeak local service on lower WPR, although usually each train is running between 6-12 minute headways
How about this other idea
The 4 runs local and the 3 runs express, that would make things simpler, although it would be breaking the 7th Avenue local, Lexington Avenue express tradition carried out in Brooklyn and Bronx
Oren, there is an upcoming G.O. that would cut #5 service from any other place but the Dyre line, the 4 could try a trial express service since there would be more room for <4> trains(that could be done in a couple of weeks as a temporary plan) to run on Lexington Avenue(#5 needs to be replaced, more 4 local trains on Jerome wouldn't work, some need to go EXP)
what kind of statement is that?
E 180th Street anyone? 241st Street, 238th Street, Dyre Avenue, come on now, they have good ridership. many #5 passengers go north of 149th Street(also 3rd Avenue station)
this will be a weekdays G.O. as well, during rush hours, that weekend stuff won't work here, anyway, do you suggest turning these at Bowling Green as well and let the (2) pick up the slack on Nostrand all by itself, the (2) is going to packed like the (4), everyone in Brooklyn will be cramming on the 4 for express service, this is going to get ugly.
I am considering reversing my original idea and changing it so that the <3> would be the express (and only run peak on M track until Burnside, then local to it's terminal) and the (4) can be the local. Of course 161st Street doesn't get 7th Avenue service (unless some <3>s were tweaked on game days)
this would make (2) = (4) and (3)/<3> = (5)/<5> and would affect local service less(although Jerome would be running more trains including track 3(M track).
----
You sure you don't want to abandon this plan?
----
The plan won't be abandoned now, only tweaked and delayed, but yes this can be made to work.
Maybe the (9) could be used instead of the <3>, who knows?
Fine. I will call it American Pig Blvd. if you can use any name you want, I can use any name I want.
This is the Eugenius D. Train to Pigs of Royal Island, Humans: The Deli Best Parkway is Next. Step in and stand clear of the closing snouts (I guess I can call doors whatever I want, can't I?).
In that case I can call it Know Your Role Boulevard. Then we can go all the way down to Throgs Neck and take the Bx8 to Jabroni Drive
If you smelll what The Great One issss cooking.
Bollocks.
They all fit on one track South of 177th in the counter-peak direction, don't they?
The reason that the local trains don't go North of 177th is lack of demand for the extra service coupled with the fact that you'd be better off waiting for the next express if they did run up there.
Jimmy
True, but it would be cool though.
And how much time do you think that will save? Would it be worth it?
Double standards.
If you really want to be honest with yourself, you'll also have to refer to 149th Street-Grand Concourse as 149th Street-Mott Avenue, refer to Jerome Avenue as Central Avenue and Burnside Avenue as Dashwood Avenue.
This is the 4 running on Central Avenue to Woodlawn Road, Dashwood Avenue is next, stand clear of the closing doors.
The front sign misspells it as Woodlwn, not the way you misspelled it.
And 149th Street is also known as Hostos Blvd, but most people don't use that
Not completely double, I left out 177th Street - Tremont Avenue, Bronx Park South - 182nd Street, etc
Because it's an honorific, it's not supposed to be the only name. Nobody refers East 116th Street as Luis Muñoz Marin Blvd, nor does anybody expect that name to be used.
-For one thing, the express service from 125 street to 149 street is barely used as it is. What makes you think the MTA will extend it into Burnside Avenue let alone Woodlawn.
-There will be too many trains for the towers to handle. The Lexington Avenue line has a bad habit of getting congested, especially going northbound, without having to distinguish between a local 4 train and an express 4 train.
-By adding express service to Jerome Avenue you destroy the one privilege Bronx residents have been having for the past 40-100 years, one seat Manhattan service. Plus no one will go for it except for people who wake up late in the morning and have to be at work in 5 minutes.
The horror! THE HORROR!
It wouldn't be complicated at all.. It will just be an extension of the Broadway Express. But if it won't reduce the crowds on the "1" and "A" line... Then, it's probably a stupid plan too!
The #3 line serving the Broadway express track will be a rush hour to/from Downtown Manhattan only service.
238
231
225
215
207
200
191
181
168
157
96
N Broadway Line
Cons:
1. Construction could disrupt route #4 at 149th Street
2. Money would have to be used to implement this construction
3. Local passengers could lose some service
4. Extreme overcrowding at Burnside Avenue with passengers switching between routes #3 and #4(regardless of which one is express)
5.Passengers above 200th Street could lose service if route #3 runs directly into the yard upon reaching the northern terminal
6. Route #3 can cause problems with route #4 by either tying up a pocket at Woodlawn, or by attempting to go to the yard if it terminated at 200th Street
I will post more if I feel anything should be added
--------------------
177th Street-Cross Bronx Expressway
200th Street-Bedford Park Boulevard
238th Street-Nereid Avenue
4th Avenue-Park Avenue South
Enjoy.
You kidding? It was an awful day, lighting wise! The bright sun made it impossible to shoot railroad south, and when I tried, the front of the redbirds came out all dark. I didn't post too many of those photos because there just isn't much to see. However I love the look of the hazy Manhattan background, which wasn't really hazy, it just looked that way because of the bright sun.
I liked this picture, what station was this taken from? http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album17/IMG_1811
Taken from the anti-railfanwindow of a nb (7) train, just north of where the line goes to three tracks from two.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Next time I'm keeping my mouth shut. I liked your first post better.
#3 West End Jeff
Andrew.
Presumably if he is caught violating the order, he is now guilty of contempt of court or some equivalent offense, and can get more jail time than for the petty offenses he was previously committing.
And nothing in CTA's policy violates that.
"It seems to me that IF one legally pays the correct fare, s/he is entitled to use the PUBLIC transit."
You're confusing a couple of issues. Banishment from the subway is a penalty paid for past crimes. There is nothing in the Constitution which forbids people from losing the right to vote or from being declared "persona non grata" under specific circumstances.
The CTA policy is legitimate, and I applaud it.
In other words, why wait for another crime to happen when they can be legally banned from the system as a detterent from future criminal activity. These people are not just your run-of-the-mill peddlers or panhandlers, they are hard core felons who have been arrested MORE THAN 10 TIMES in the same system for crimes against people and their property.
: )
Mark
:0)
I suspect they are not felons. Anyone arrested more than ten times for felonies committed in the subway should be spending many years in prison rather than being banned from the subway. More likely as stated in the thread title these are petty criminals rather than hard core felons.
Tom
If that bothers you, how about the civil injunctions that are being obtained in Southern California, prohibiting known gang members from associating with each other in public in their home areas, and traveling together in adjacent areas? At least in Chicago there had to be a previous conviction.
The idea is to keep the gang members from intimidating others in their home territory, and preventing them from heading to a drive by shooting. The local cops who are aware of the injunctions and know the gang members, will enforce the injunctions on sight, arresting those in violation until they can be brought before the issuing judge on a contempt charge.
The local residents are all for it, and elected District Attorneys see them as vote getters, but the ACLU is having a fit over them. None of the affected gang members have challenged them yet.
Tom
At one point LAPD got an ordinance banning dogs on the Venice boardwalk because gang members were using pit bulls to harass rivals and try to intimidate police officers. Why an officer being set upon by a gang member's pit bull doesn't simply shoot the dog I don't know - but I would, with a clear conscience.
Who's "we"?
Recently? I've never heard of such a thing being done in New York. Still, it sounds like an excellent idea.
Daily News, 8/12/02
and related discussion
Riding the subway (or bus, or railroad) is a privilege, not a right. Driving a car is a privilege, too. Both can be taken away from you if you abuse them.
People like the ones in the article need to learn to accept responsibility for their own actions and understand that there are consequences. Unfortunately, some people never learn that lesson.
It is quite enforceable if it is a condition of probation or parole. If the person comes to the attention of a police officer in the subway for any reason, he goes straight to jail without any need to prove a new offense "beyond a reasonable doubt". A short hearing to prove he was in the subway is all that is needed to send him back to jail.
Tom
Bus Attacks Foster Fear in Mexico City
I'm fishing these stories from Google's search engine, using their NEWS feature, and ordering the articles with the most recent ones first. It's a great way to find articles from all over the world on subjects that interest you.
I'm sorry. I couldn't resist changing the meaning of the headline.
Police Hunt Flasher
I just ran across this article about TEG Thermal Electric Generator can be used to convert waste heat from a subway car into electrical energy. It initially sounded interesting, but the mention of flywheels made me wonder. Flywheels have been tested in the system but at that time I think they were driven more directly by the electrical energy generated by reversing the coils (or whatever they do) on the car motors. Anyway here's a link to the article and to a company page on the process. It sounds like they're hyping it up to "generate" some interest.
Newspaper Article on TEG
Company page on TEG
The TA experimented years ago with converting the braking energy into mechanical energy in the form of a flywheel, which would then be available when the train accelerated. I'm not sure what the results of those tests were, other than the system was never implemented. I think some 32's were equipped with flywheels and were tested on the system.
Maybe Jeff or Stephen Baumann can shed some more light on this issue. (I haven't seen a discussion of the Biot-Savart Law here in a long time)
I could be wrong, but that may be R-32's #3700-3701. I believe those were the flywheel test cars that went to Pueblo,CO in the early 70's.
Bill "Newkirk"
From what I understand, it is not hype. The new cars can indeed do this, but the DC supply system (substations and third rail ) must also be able to accept and route the power (I am oversimplifying here and my description may not be on target) and the TA's infrastructure currently cannot do so. I'm not sure what the TA would have to do to enable the 142 and 143's capability to be exploited.
There were complaints that the F service has suffered since the V, and suggestions that the V run into Brooklyn. Lack of equipment was given for that not happening.
There were comments about the slippery tile issue at one of the new stations. That is puzzling to me, since I thought that problem arose several years ago and they addressed it then.
There was indirect mention of Subtalk when Randy noted that railfans felt that Chambers Street was the ugliest station in the system. It still is my favorite. Interestingly, the station is right under the studios of WNYC, which is in the Municipal Building.
Mention was made that some people were jamming Metro Card Machines and then offering to swipe people in for a discount using unlimited Metro Cards. I've wondered whether any Metro Card Machines have been seriously damaged or destroyed by vandals.
Mention was made of the lack of toilets in the system and one might have gotten the incorrect impression that there were no new toilets being built in renovated stations.
They talked about impoliteness in the subways and pointed out that short people get very angry at pole huggers who make it hard for them to hold on.
Mention was made of the poor condition of many of the elevated stations and Randy pointed out that some of the stations in the Rockaways looked like they hadn't been painted in 40 or 50 years.
Union Square Station was pointed out as being horribly noisy and hot.
When asked about what the future held in store for the system, Randy spoke of the newest equipment being computer controlled, which would allow for closer headways. But he felt that this wouldn't be operational for many many years.
If I haven't completely turned you off the show, you can listen to it later in the day when they place it into the archives at:
WNYC
Well, I guess the honeymoon is over (^_^).
I'd rather see you court Newdsay (Yeech Ptooey).
Try the Daily News.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Since Amtrak recently sponsored a photo contest and suggested to people that once again photography would be allowed around stations, I decided for the first time in almost two years to see if they meant what they said. Spent an hour on the parking deck (or what is left of it) at 30th Street Station in Philadelphia, and was not disappointed. Wasn't arrested, questioned, hassled, yelled at or even looked at in a cross manner. And you can find the shots in a special birthday edition (mine) at http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
BTW The contest may be over, but there is always next year.
http://www.amtrak.com/press/atk20030512071.html
Consideration was given and construction actually begun to convert the two north tracks to shuttle operation and use the two south tracks for the Flushing Line. To this end a single island platform was built with two trackways but track was never installed. Instead the trackways were boarded over and this became the present day lower or pay passageway between the Contract I and Contract III lines. This is why when you leave the Lexington Avenue Line mezzinine and head toward the shuttle you go up a steep ramp raising you about four feet to the platform level of the never used paltform.
Now here's the interesting part. As part of the planned conversion above an underpass was built from the upper or free passageway accros 42 Street where it abruptly ends at the south side of 42 Street. If completed it would probably have gone into the Pershing Building.(later Central Airlines Terminal Building and now a college I believe.) The northstairway was accesible from a wire fence and it and the passageway itself were intact in 1964 and may still be intact.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The overpass just above the entrance to the passageway at the Grand Central shuttle station is from the 1904 station. If you look out from track 1 you can get a general idea of the curve of the original ROW and how it fed tracks 1 through 4.
You can check out a movie at the Library of Congress website. It was taken in 1905 and towards the end of part 2 shows the train on the original ROW going into track 4 of Grand Central (now the shuttle station). It has options for either a modem or a more direct connection (the files are large).
Go to
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html, type "subway" in the search field. The item you want will be the first one in the results: Early Films Interior NY Subway 14th St to 42nd St
Part 1 goes from 14th St to 33rd St (if you look carefully at the start you will see the original uptown local side platform)
Part 2 goes from 33rd St to 42nd St
If you want the direct URL here it is - a long one (better to cut and paste)
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?papr:1:./temp/~ammem_MAJe::@@@mdb=manz,eaa,aap,aaeo,rbaapcbib,aasm,ftvbib,aaodyssey,hh,gottscho,mharendt,bbpix,bbcards,magbell,berl,lbcoll,rbpebib,calbkbib,tccc,lhbcbbib,cdn,cic,cwband,cwnyhs,gmd,mtaft,cwar,cola,consrvbib,bdsbib,coolbib,coplandbib,curt,dag,musdibib,fsaall,mfd,papr,aep,fine,fmuever,dcm,cmns,flwpabib,afcreed,cowellbib,toddbib,lomaxbib,ngp,afcwwgbib,haybib,raelbib,gottlieb,mtj,alad,wpa,mal,scsm,mcc,mymhiwebib,mmorse,aipn,ncpm,ncpsbib,afcwip,fawbib,omhbib,pan,afcpearl,vv,wpapos,psbib,pin,presp,lhbprbib,qlt,ncr,relpet,mussm,dukesm,mesnbib,llstbib,denn,amss,uncall,fpnas,svybib,runyon,wtc,detr,hlaw,lhbumbib,upboverbib,varstg,horyd,mgw,hawp,nawbib,suffrg,awh,nfor,sgp
I have a question though about 33rd St. Why did the majority of 1904 stations have the standard "IRT Pillars", but 33rd Street just had plain I-Beam columns? Thankfully they were encased in 1930's tile during the extensions, but during the renovation they curiously removed some of the tile encasings to expose the I beams again. I hope they don't remove the encasings at 28th or 23rd if they ever renovate there. I wonder if they are keeping the tile encasings at 116th, etc in the current ongoing renovations.
It just strikes me as curious why 33rd had I beams right from the beginning, and no IRT pillars in the contract one portion of the station.
I always thought that when they removed some of the 33 tiles from the columns, they also replaced the pillars. According to the video though, these are original:
Thankfully some of the 1930's tile encasings remain:
TIA
Hope this helps you.
Now can we go back to trains?
http://webapps.nyc.gov:8082/bisweb/PropertyProfileOverviewServlet?boro=3&houseno=900&street=kent+ave&requestid=0
Or whatever particular program you use...
Mark
til next time
Filming of that scene actually began at 47-50th Street. The film crew was using a handheld camera and was working without a permit. Even though it was about four in the morning, the station began to get too crowded, so everyone moved on to 15th Street where it was much less busy.
You can see both stations appear in what's supposed to be one scene.
#3 West End Jeff
"THE TAKING OF CONTINENTAL 1 2 3."
Starring: You choose!
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
DUH? The Q train does not stop at City Hall during these times. And what about the M train?
Guess you could call that the "Duke Ellington Escape"
I know, I'm bad.
The report was that the gunman was sighted in the High Street station. That station has cops 24/7, so I'm somewhat skeptical.
Update news copter just reported that both the perpetrator and the councilman just died at the hospital. Mikey Bloomy is unharmed. Wow! (good for him on cheating his own death). Anyhoo, MTA doesn't know what the heck they were doing by sending commuter to the bus. Chamber and park Row and fulton was shut down sending backup traffic all the way the west side. Southbound FDR was also shut. with heavy police present. No way these bus get around.
Well the final report is that the victim was councilman James Davis and the shooter was Akmil Askew [spelling?]. Both had died and the story is pretty bizarre.
Peace,
ANDEE
;'
Due to a Police Investigation at City Hall, there are subway diversions on the following lines:
N and R trains are running on the W line between Dekalb Avenue and Canal Street in both directions until further notice.
Peace,
ANDEE
It now says the N & R will bypass City Hall
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Something smells there.
Who knows?
Peace,
ANDEE
The other victim may one of his aides, and he is listed in critical condtion
God bless their families.
Peace,
ANDEE
If he had a valid permit to carry, City Hall security might have let him enter with the gun. I don't know the policy on that.
Of course I am speculating here, without basis in fact.
Due to a Police Investigation at City Hall, there are subway diversions on the following lines until further notice:
, and trains are bypassing the City Hall station in both directions.
, , and trains are bypassing the Brooklyn Bridge Station in both directions.
trains are bypassing the Chambers Street in both directions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Jesus, DON'T FEED THE FIRE
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about that. Still on the live feed.
Mark
Whose Dept of Internal Affairs?
What is your source for this information?
What does NKVD stand for?
I think you had better cut back on the meds (or increase them) as needed.
The killer is not at large, he is DEAD.
Gunfight At City Hall Leaves Two Dead
I know this is off-topic, so I will try to limit posting on this subject.
We are amused...
Another descent soul lost so early in his career.
Instead, law abiding citizens would be deprived of their right to defend themselves. There was a police officer in the council chambers. Are there police officers everywhere?
What I've learned since I moved upstate is that there ARE reasons for guns. Bears for one ... and some of those same people you worry about at the post office. If you live near a trailer park or a Wal*Mart, I can see why some might want to have a gun. So I've learned to not have a problem with GUNS per se.
Only thing I ask is if you're going to GET a gun, PLEASE learn how to AIM it. :)
The IRONY though of this being politicians is just incredible. And both DEMOCRATS. Geez. :-\
Was thinking that the shooter might have been TrainDude, been then I realized you didn't know him back then....;)
I haven't run afoul of the boy (as far as I know) so I doubt it was him though. They never DID catch the perp who shot me - and instead of driving me around to look for the phucker, the detectives were much more interested in grilling ME about WHY I got shot. A$$holes. But that's why I left. I got shot, and then got ARRESTED for getting shot.
The idiot who did it though ended up getting banged by his buddies a couple of weeks later. I tell ya though, I was already getting pretty sour with the whole city thing - that episode just put me RIGHT over the top. When a couple of buddies talked to me a few days later, saying they were planning to get a place upstate and if I wanted to join them, it was an INSTANT "hell, yeah" ... even funnier - eight of us ended up renting a house. Only three of us STAYED upstate. :)
A Possible New Tappan Zee Bridge
Jul 23, 2003 1:22 pm US/Eastern
A new Tappan Zee Bridge, 50 feet wider than the current one, could carry eight lanes of traffic, a commuter train line and a light rail line while still having regulation highway shoulders and a path for walkers, bicyclists and even anglers, officials said Wednesday.
Or the bridge could vanish, with traffic and trains going into a tunnel under the Hudson River and drivers paying extra for the privilege of using a bus lane.
Or nothing could happen at all, with the 48-year-old bridge remaining as it is.
All were among the 15 "scenarios" presented by the state Thruway Authority and the Metro-North Railroad after winnowing through 150 proposals put forward over the past year by experts and citizens. The goal is to reduce congestion along the New York stretch of Interstate 287 from Rye, in Westchester County, to Suffern, in Rockland County, which includes the Tappan Zee.
The various solutions are to be narrowed still further by next April, when perhaps three comprehensive proposals, plus the leave-it-alone alternative and one that calls for just rehabilitating the existing bridge, will enter the environmental impact stage.
A final choice on what scenario to propose is scheduled for the end of 2005.
Though doing nothing is the cheapest choice, officials said Wednesday they were not yet at the stage of figuring out the cost of the various proposals.
Among the proposals that have been eliminated, because their cost, practicality or environmental impact would be too high, were:
Using ferries instead of a bridge or tunnel.
Adding commuter rail to the existing bridge.
Changing the Cross-Westchester Expressway into a Cross-Westchester Tunnel.
Building an island in the Hudson for the mouth of a tunnel.
Officials had announced previously that they were no longer considering building a replacement bridge elsewhere on the Hudson — and that they had dropped the idea of hot-air balloons.
(© 2003 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. )
Personally I prefer big friendly sea monsters that carry travellers across the river on their backs.
: )
Seriously, I like the bridge ideas better than tunneling, because the views from the current bridge are so wonderful.
Mark
Personally I prefer big friendly sea monsters that carry travellers across the river on their backs.
: )
Seriously, I like the bridge ideas better than tunneling, because the views from the current bridge are so wonderful.
Mark
Due to signal problems south of Queens Plaza, Manhattan-bound V trains are running on the F tracks from 36th Street in Queens into Manhattan.
Due to a Police Investigation at City Hall, there are subway diversions on the following lines until further notice:
N,R and W trains are bypassing the City Hall station in both directions.
4,5 and 6 trains are bypassing the Brooklyn Bridge Station in both directions.
J trains are bypassing the Chambers Street in both directions.
N and R trains bypass City Hall in Both Directions.
4 and 5 trains bypass Brooklyn Bridge in Both Directions.
6 trains suspended, Canal Street to Brooklyn Bridge.
J, M and Z trains bypass Chambers Street in both directions.
2 and 3 trains bypass Park Place in both directions.
N and R trains bypass City Hall in Both Directions.
4 and 5 trains bypass Brooklyn Bridge in Both Directions.
6 trains suspended, Canal Street to Brooklyn Bridge.
J, M and Z trains bypass Chambers Street in both directions.
2 and 3 service at Park Place has been restored.
The M15, M 22, X1, X10, X17, X17, X27, X28, X29 bus routes are subject to rerouting.
Are the trains moving?
1) I think I'm correct that the Hudson Line line was the route used for trains bound for Chicago and points west. In the NYC days, were there any passenger branchs off the Hudson Line south of Albany?
2) Was the Harlem line used by long distance trains? And if so where were they bound for?
3) The New Haven Line was of course the New Haven RR before the NYC took it over. When did that happen? Prior the take over of the NHRR, did the NYC run to Boston?
4) Pre take over by the NYC did the NHRR run on the current NE corridor past New Haven or did it use the "inland route"? And both pre and post NHRR takeover, how did the NYC get to Boston if they in fact went to Boston? And did they use South Station?
5) Obviously the NYC and PRR were big rivals, now I think the PRR owned the current AMTRACK route from New York City to Boston; did the NYC run over PRR track? And if so was it a business decision by the PRR (might as well get some revenue from the tracks, they are sitting there) or was it to stay clear of anti-trust regulations (such as they were in those days)?
6) On the other side of the NE corridor, did the NYC run to Washington? It would seem difficult to do so from GCT. And on the run from New York City to Washington, who were the major players aside from the PRR, if there were any?
Thanks for any info.
Piggo
2. The Harlem Division was the "original" New York Central and in the really old days it went all the way to Albany. But, that was long, long ago.
3. The New Haven was taken into the NYC-Pennsylvania merger that created the fiasco known as Penn Central in 1968. Before that, NH service ran from both GCT (over the NYC lines to Woodlawn on the Harlem) and from Penn (over the NY Connecting Railway to the NH line in the Bronx and then to New Rochelle -- the route Amtrak uses today.)
4. The NH ran both shoreline and inland services.
5. The NH owned the NY-Boston line. It had a joint service agreement with the PRR for trains that went through Penn Station. I remember seeing PRR equipment, including GG-1 engines, on the NH in the mid-60's.
6. NYC did not run to Washington. In the old days, you had at least two ways to get there: Pennsylvania RR and Jersey Central/B&O.
Where did the West Shore terminate on the southern end? I believe the commuter service terminate about the year I was born (1959), but I recall my Dad telling me it took you to a ferry terminal, could it have used the DL&W, later Erie Lakawana terminal in Hoboken?
And where was the northern terminus of the West Shore Line? Was it a commuter operations only or did long distance trains use it also?
I recently heard this line (I believe we were talking about the same line) called the "River Line". Are they the same, or are the West Shore and the River Line two different lines?
Thanks Again
There was a terminal in Weehawken. I believe it was one of the first to close.
And where was the northern terminus of the West Shore Line? Was it a commuter operations only or did long distance trains use it also?
It ran to Selkirk Yard near Albany. It was never a popular commuter rail line and had no LD service.
I recently heard this line (I believe we were talking about the same line) called the "River Line". Are they the same, or are the West Shore and the River Line two different lines?
Yes, it was re-named by Conrail to the River Line.
No, it had its own waterfront terminal near today's Port Imperial. The tunnel it used to cross under Union City is being rejiggered to serve the HBLR (opens 2005).
NJT has studied reopening the West Shore line for passenger service. Their plan is to build a new branch off the Main Line through the Meadowlands Sports Complex to the Vince Lombardi Service Area (NJTP), where the HBLR Phase III is to terminate and then run up the West Shore to West Nyack or West Haverstraw.
Not really.
2) Was the Harlem line used by long distance trains? And if so where were they bound for?
Maybe back in the 19th Century, but not any time recently.
3) The New Haven Line was of course the New Haven RR before the NYC took it over. When did that happen? Prior the take over of the NHRR, did the NYC run to Boston?
The NYC never took over the NYNH&H, it was absorbed into the Penn Central in 1972. The NYC only ran to Boston from Albany on the Boston and Albany RR (part of the NYC "System"). Trains like the Lake Shore Limited did and continue to have a Boston section.
4) Pre take over by the NYC did the NHRR run on the current NE corridor past New Haven or did it use the "inland route"? And both pre and post NHRR takeover, how did the NYC get to Boston if they in fact went to Boston? And did they use South Station?
The New Haven had a Y shaped main trunk system. NY to New Haven, New Haven to Hardford and New Haven to Boston. The New Haven to Boston line is how the NYC to Boston trains ran and that currently exists as the Amtrak Shore Line, which is the "corridor" to Boston. The NYC through its Subsiduary Boston and Albany reached Boston at South Station, which is shared with the New Haven.
5) Obviously the NYC and PRR were big rivals, now I think the PRR owned the current AMTRACK route from New York City to Boston; did the NYC run over PRR track? And if so was it a business decision by the PRR (might as well get some revenue from the tracks, they are sitting there) or was it to stay clear of anti-trust regulations (such as they were in those days)?
The PRR never owned any part of the shore line. The NHRR and PRR ran several through trains over the Hell Gate, but there was no common ownership until the 1972 PC absorbtion. The NYC did not participate in the direct NYC to Boston market as the New Haven RR had that market bottled up.
6) On the other side of the NE corridor, did the NYC run to Washington? It would seem difficult to do so from GCT. And on the run from New York City to Washington, who were the major players aside from the PRR, if there were any?
The NYC never had any access south of New York. The only other player in the NYC to DC market was the B&O/Reading. The B&O ran their Royal Blue service to Philly and then ran on trackage rights via their sister Reaging RR and its CNJ Subsiduary to the CNJ terminal at Jersey City. The Reading ran their Crudaser service from Reading Terminal in Philly to the CNJ Terminal in Jersey City as well. Both tried to compete with the PRR by providing "luxury" over the PRR's faster time.
You could travel from NYC to Chatham on the Central and transfer to the B&A to Boston. A little faster than traveling via Albany but as JM said, why would anyone do this when they could travel direct on the NH?
Well, I'm sure that if the routing existed today more than a handful of SubTalk's Finest would have railfanned it many times!
Kinda gets me wondering when railfanning gained steam as a hobby...
CG
I think that it happened the first day that trains themselves gained steam (pun fully intended).
Bzzzt! 31 December 1968. PC went backrupt in 1970 and disappeared, as a railroad, with the formation of Conrail on 01 April 1976.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As others have answered, not in a very long time. But until Amtrak was formed in 1971, NYCRR ran commuter trains (1 a day, each direction) on that line, beyond the current treminus to Millerton. NYCRR wanted to abandon the Millerton service at that time, using the theory that all railroads were allowed to abandon "long-distance" routes that Amtrak did not assume. Some users of that line sued to have this declared a commuter line, to prevent abandonment (at least under that theory). But NYCRR prevailed, and service north of Dover Plains was dropped.
The users may have had a point, as Metro North recently extended service north of Dover Plains to Wasaaic. Whether there'd be enough demand to go all the way to Millerton is another story. I'm not sure if the right of way is still intact that far.
Due to a Police Investigation at City Hall, riders should expect significant delays and some route diversions on the following bus routes:
M9, M15, M22, M103
All Staten Island Express Bus Routes that normally begin their routes at Trinity Street and Rector Street, will now begin at the FDR between South and Civic Centre.
They mention nothing about subways in this update so one may assume that subway service has been restored at all stations, however I cannot be completely sure...
http://www.mta.info/alert/alertnyct.htm
One time someone told me what it meant but I can't remember.
Exactly what does this plate on a signal indicate?
I have seen it on a signal near Buhre Av (#6) before they were upgraded and recently saw one on the #7 lone.
Or perhaps a switch from the old Baltimore and Ohio Railroad :-) If we shell be so lucky.
Robert
Robert
You peek out the window...
if you see a platform, you look up to se if there is a zebra.
If you got a platform and you got a zebra, then it should be pretty safe to open the doors.
Unless of course there is an empty LOCAL track between your train that that platform with the zebra on it.
Oh well, what do the geessesses want for their lousy swipe anyway... to live forever?
Elias
I reprinted this Bill's site (Chuck Greene)
Chuck Greene
What? - you were expecting statistics?
That's an effective way of putting it.
Exchange Place is not on that route. But I would say a moderate handful of people.
But I wanted to say "Once-again Exchange Place (formerly Former Exchange Place)."
Started out by taking the 810 bound for Penn (I was going to Flatbush). Just before the double crossover between Gibson and V.S. the train stops for about 5 minutes due to medical emergency at Valley. Saw a set of M-7's bound for Flatbush (understand where I am going with this, right?) So, we pull in on the EB track. I assume we're going to wrong rail it, but we switch to the WB atlantic track (first time I've ever used that crossover). To my amazement, the stretch between Valley and ROSEDALE stations, I counted 4 trains, all waiting to move! (gives you a sense of all the deadheads, huh?). Unscheduled stops at Laurelton and Locust Manor delay us even more. So, cant get worse, huh? Just before Jamaica, we stop again. Announced the train will be taken OOS due to brake problems (Ironic. I assumed we had more trouble GOING than stopping). So, the geniuses at Jay tower put us on track 4. The trains west are on tracks 1-3, respectively. Yes, that means a 6-car trainload of peak passengers ALL have to use the narrow bridges over the tracks. Got on the train to brooklyn (which also was an M-7, coincidence?). The same train that was in V.S. was next to us.
Later in the day, went to Penn Sta to get an Amtrak train to Croton- Harmon (amtrak or metro-north? decisions, decisions). Arrived 1229 for the 1245 departure. No track announcement yet. So, I camped out by the stairway to tracks 1,2,3,4 on the Amtrak level. I figure that the train will most likely be on tracks 5,6 ( 1 ) 1245 comes and goes, no track yet. However, "due to a late arrival in NY, the train is being serviced in Sunnyside yards". Apparently, this all stems from storms in the north (At least Amtrak's running, better than the planes) ( 2) 1 PM comes and goes. At approx. 115, an announcement is made that the train will be on track 6. However, I was in the waiting area (D'oh!). Oh, well. Went to track level, but could not get consist number (I was with my 80+ year old grandmother. She went to visit friends, of course I would go!) 5 car consist. Took a seat in the first car that opened, Amfleet I #22193, 3rd car, second back of the Cafe/Business class car. I am not sure exactly what phase the car was in (I think phase VI) ( 3 ) Just after departure, when tickets are punched, I am informed that only the Cafe Car and the car right behind it will open their doors. So, I move up one car to car #21034, just like 22193. Departure is fine, however once we reach MNRR territory, we slow considerably. We crawl, sprint, crawl, sprint all the way to Croton, arrive at 220.
Decided for the return to take an MNRR super-express. Just missed a penn-bond Amtrak train. ( 4 ) Waiting at Croton station, noticed announcement of MNRR 523 train to P'kipsie. As everyone went to track 3 to board the train, noticed it was a delayed amtrak train. Waited in the station for a suprisingly long time, even though the doors were closed. A few minutes later, the MNRR train north arrived. Took the 527 from C-H, with the first stop 125th street. Shoreliner consist, with Genesis engine pushing. Nice run, slowed down near Yonkers and Spyten-Dyvil station all the way to 125th street.
Questions:
1- In penn staton, Tracks 1-4 are stub-ended, correct?
2- How long does it take to service a train? Why does Amtrak have to wait to open the car? I assume stocking, but can't that be done in sunnyside?
3- Why did the car have the plush, red seats, though? Doesnt that phase have blue seats?
4- What is Amtrak's policy for purchasing on-board tickets?
5- Is the Putnam freight line still in use? What is the route of that line?
6- Is MNRR actually able to use 4 car peak trains???? That amazes me, but wouldn't the train stall in those massive gaps?
It is obvious that the Croton-Harmon bridge to the south of the station has added the "local" tracks later on. Was the line widened from 2 tracks to 4 at one point? It seems that south of C=H the line was built as 4 tracks. When was it widned (if ever)?
Service ended many years ago. Parts of the line through Westchester have been turned into a walking/biking trail.
A small section right off the Metro North Hudson line may still be used for work trains and such.
Also in Van Cortlandt Park.
3. Most of the Amtrak cars used on the Empire Corridor "shuttles" have the red seats. A fair amount don't even have outlets. The paint scheme has nothing to do with the interior, I've found myself on a Phase VI (or whatever looks like Phase IV but has that teal color instead of blue and the new logo) with the red seats.
--sidenote-- I'm surprised you actually got to pick your car, usually they herd everyone going all the way to Albany into the first or last car, and direct everyone else to the other cars.
4. I'm not sure about Penn Station since on the NEC you're not allowed to purchase on board train, but for the other stops it's a $8 service charge unless no Amtrak ticket office. A few years ago MNRR ticket offices stopped selling Amtrak tickets and they put those Quik-traks in, so no on board charge in MNRR territory.
6. MNRR uses 4 car trains all the time, the Hudson line locals, the midday Harlem Line to NWP trains, and the semi-express that they instituted to allow those super-expresses. Once I even saw a 3 car ACMU run.
What is "electric plezocone" testing?
http://www.conepenetration.com/
Answered my own question: it's for testing soft ground to find out where firm ground is underneath it - eg where one might find bedrock at an appropriate depth.
WPRR-FM 100.1 MHz
Altoona, Pennsylvania
"Todays Hit Music"
Station Owner:
Vital Licenses, LLC
find stations owned by Vital Licenses, LLC
this feature is only available to Gold Customers
Station Address:
2727 West Albert Drive
Altoona, PA 16602
Phone: 814-944-9456
Fax: 814-944-0250
Unfortunately it is a Top 40 station, but you never know, it could have a format change and broadcast ambient scanner traffic along with some other rail related fare. WPRR, all railroad all the time.
For those of you who are Simpsons fans there DOES exist a KBBL and a KFSL. There is also a WCSX in Birmingham, Michigan.
I saw a number of those today. I don't know if they formed one train initially, but now they are scattered throughout the line. One car was 9712, which was a World's Fair R36. What history it has seen.
D
As a side note: The Mets' cars seem to be rolling along better than the Mets themselves. Maybe it's the addition of the Yankee's sticker on the tail of the car helping it along. Couldn't help myself.
If I am not mistaken, at least one of the Subway Series R36WF pairs was reefed.
LOL, don't let Fred see that ;-D. Anyway I heard that one of the Subway Series pairs were reefed but I don't know for sure.
D
If Leo Durocher were still alive right now, he'd have four words for the Mets' front office: back up the truck.
I still remember when Gil Hodges was the manager. Had he remained alive, there is no way the Mets would have tanked in the 70s the way they did. M. Donald Grant never questioned Hodges about anything. Whitey Herzog (yes, he used to work for the Mets, too) once told Grant to his face that he didn't know beans about baseball.
One can only imagine what sort of record the Mets would have amassed if they could have kept their 1969 pitching staff (Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, McGraw) intact into the 80s.
What about R-17s in the MTA colors. What lines were they on??
Someone please answer this question!
thanks chris
This photo from my collection is from ca. 1948 (no I wasn't born yet for about another 1/4 century). Looks like they were in that two tone livery, but it's hard to tell because it's b/w.
Rboert
Interestingly enough, these cars ran in solid trains on the 7. Once they wound up on the mainlines, these cars were always intermixed in trains with later cars. The R-12s and R-14s were never placed in the middle of a train; i. e. at the conductor's station. Even though the R-15s had their door controls in the cabs, they never ran in solid trains on the mainlines.
David
The R-10s on the A are another story. Longer trains on a much longer route.
As for your questions, the R-12's and R-14's stayed on the #7/Flushing Line for the first 15 years of their lives, being replaced by the 1963-1964 R-33/36 World's Fair cars. The R-15's also worked the Flushing line until the R-33/36's were delivered.
Some of the R-17's did work the Flushing line in their early days, not sure of the dates, but I know it was sometime around 1959 or so -- my Dad was with FDNY and was working at a firehouse int he Flushing area on a temporary assignment, and I definitely remember the R-17's. They were mixed with R-15's, but I don't recall seeing them mixed with R-12/14's. There is a photo of the R-15/17 mixed trains in Greller's subway car book.
Some R-17's also went to the Flushing line in the mid-1960's, and they did NOT have #7 line destination signage then, so stickers were used. They stuck out like a sore thumb as they were white stickers with black letters, just the opposite of normal destination signage.
The R-17's did seem to be assigned to the #6/Pelham line in their early days. Around 1963-1964, 6500-6699 started mixing on the other IRT Mainline routes (and ALL IRT Mainline equipment was intermixed on any train), while 6700-6899 seemed to stay exclusively on the Pelham. Once they went to MTA silver and blue, the entire 400 car lot went around the Mainline from what I remember.
There were some painted Redbird red. At that time there were white trainsets and the newly painted Redbirds.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm aware of that, but there were some Redbird R-17s on the #7 in place of R-33S being overhauled. And there were some white R-17's on the #7 in the remaining white trainsets.
Bill "Newkirk"
They are in my processing queue, next up for viewing are pics from my Bronx Trip with Pigs.
There for, to read all about the GCT Shuttle station go here:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/grandcentral.html
You will thank me for it.
D
Of course we all have heard of the site. In fact Joe provides a link tro photos on this site.
This shows the enitire routing of the Ultimate ride.
Even before today's shootings, we couldn't get as close to the steps of City Hall as we used to. It wasn't too long ago, I even strolled past the steps of City Hall usually taking a short cut. After today, security will be tighter than ever.
You see, in order to reopen City Hall loop, a replica kiosk would have to be built over the sealed over stairway. But that is still too close to City Hall for the general public. Whether a fenced in entrance to the kiosk is on Broadway or City Hall Park, what's to stop someone with a gun to take a shot through the fence ?
I'd love to see that station recstored to it's original grandeur, as a proposed Transit Museum annex. But today's events just may seal that fate.
Your opinion.
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope so too, but yesterday's incident made security at City Hall even tighter.
Bill "Newkirk"
You already can shoot at City Hall from Broadway or the park.
True, but there is a buffer zone in front of City Hall where people cannot traverse like years ago. An entrance kiosk would be in that buffer zone making it closer for someone to "take a shot".\
Bill "Newkirk"
Has anyone done that? The announcement says "Everyone please leave the train," but has anyone stayed on?
Doug
If anybody wants to join me, they are more than welcome. I would meet up with fellow Subtalkers at TS near the 7 platform, but it is too hot in that area right now. So I suggest we meet right near the Transit Museum Store at GCT (because I'm going to buy some items at the store). Hopefully I should be finished in Brooklyn by 4:30 PM (I don't know how long these hearings last, plus I won't know how many people will be ahead of me until I get there) so then I should be back to GCT by 5 PM. You would be able to identify me by looking for a guy holding a Transit Museum bag.
If you want to meet up send me-email so I know whether to expect anybody to come or not.
Koi
Jimmy
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If another footbridge could be built, or the existing one could be widened, I'd love to see a transfer there.
I'd just love to see everyone have unlimited metrocards! Maybe they could give them away in boxes of Cracker Jacks!
(Don't laugh... it's no crazier than all the people who spend $19.95 in shipping and handling to get their "free" whatchamacallit that's only worth 50¢.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Off-peak, crowding isn't even an issue.
CG
(Sure, the 4's express in Brooklyn. It bypasses a whopping six stops, but takes a much longer route, and it doesn't even stop at Junius.)
And for lower Manhattan, the A is quicker than the 3 to the 4.
Most of the traffic at a 3 - L transfer point would be intraborough. A few people bound for 7th Avenue will transfer from the L to the 3 so they can avoid the 14th Street passageway, but otherwise the transfer point would simply tie together two currently disconnected pieces of the Brooklyn transit network.
Even passengers boarding near the intersection, who can freely choose either route, don't seem to much prefer the 3 over the L. In 2000, Junius had 485,484 fare registrations and Livonia was just three stations down the list, at 449,544 fare registrations.
As for the L and 3, apparently, suhc a connection would not be worth the cost of building it since not too many people would use it. If you have an unlimited card, you can make the transfer anyway.
The way things are going, all 1,030 (Bomb.) R-142s should be in service by sometime in September or perhaps October, and the (KRC) R-142Ss starting to show up by then. Its still open to question when there will be enough to permit complete retirement of the Redbirds.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
When you call, calm down, tell them what you have video of and mention that you're making it available as a "souvenir" of the occasion. You might also hit the local papers along the route ... don't sell it as a railfan thing, sell it as a souvenir. And unlike those "maps to the star's homes" it's really there. Heh.
--Mark
"Bet your Sweet Bippy" was a stock line in almost every program.
Also "Verrry Interesting".
If you don't remember it, it's now available on DVD. Check the friendly folks at Columbia House - buy from them and you've got a friend forever.
(I'm dating myself now :)
--Mark
---Bob Rivers
The north track behind the connector tunnel? No. The north track would have run along the north wall of the connector tunnel which is even with track 4 of the shuttle. With the storage room near the shuttle station it can be hard to visualize.
The connector corridor was not built in the train tunnel. It is east of where the tunnel wall was. To build the connecting corridor they knocked down the tunnel wall (which was on a curve).
Check Joe Brennan's site for more detailed information:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/grandcentral.html
[Yes, Johns03, I give you credit for providing the link in your posting).
That is discussed on Joe's site. That was a station built to be a new shuttle station, but was never used.
From Joe's site:
The Grand Central end is what concerns us here. The new Lexington Ave route curves off the old at 41 St and runs under private property to reach Lexington Ave at 43 St. The new Grand Central station was in the diagonal segment. This left a distance of about 400 feet between the end of the old station and the side of the new.
To close the gap, the Public Service Commission planned a new station for the shuttle, ending close to the Lexington Ave subway station. It was constructed, but it was never used. The wall and roof of the old subway were removed at the curve just south of the old Grand Central station, and trackways were built continuing east under 42 St, to bring those two tracks into the new station, which was a narrow island platform between the two tracks. It was expected that two tracks would be more than adequate for the shuttle.
"To close the gap, the Public Service Commission planned a new station for the shuttle, ending close to the Lexington Ave subway station. It was constructed, but it was never used. The wall and roof of the old subway were removed at the curve just south of the old Grand Central station, and trackways were built continuing east under 42 St, to bring those two tracks into the new station, which was a narrow island platform between the two tracks. It was expected that two tracks would be more than adequate for the shuttle.
The big rerouting for the H system took place on 1 August 1918, when the main line tracks were connected into the new Lexington Ave and Seventh Ave subways. To get the new shuttle open, temporary wooden flooring was laid over part of the trackways at the old Times Square and Grand Central stations for the time being. At Grand Central the connecting passageway was the one that runs from the mezzanine level upstairs from the old station. It had opened in 1916 to provide access to the Steinway Tunnel station.
In one day, plans changed. The travelling public made very heavy use of the shuttle. It wasn't just people following the old route; some wanted to get between points on the two new lines. Two shuttle trains were not enough, and the narrow platform being built at Grand Central would obviously not be adequate. Crowd conditions at Grand Central were so bad that the Public Service Commission ordered the shuttle closed on 2 August rather than risk disaster."
Could this have something to do with that removed ceiling?
Track 1 - 3 cars
Track 3 - 4 cars
Track 4 - 3 cars
Track 1 connects with the downtown Lexington Avenue local track
Track 4 connects with the uptown 7th Avenue local track
There is a connection between track 1 & 3 just west of the station.
At the moment the cars are supplied by the #3 line so they are coming from 148th St Yard (or possibly 180th St/Unionport).
When they come down the 7Av are the trains turned south of Times Sq
and again at 50St to reach track 4?
Same game at 33 St on the Lex line?
If you HAVE Sundance channel, it'll be shown again as part of their "NY NY" shorts series:
Friday 08.01.2003
7:00AM
Friday 08.01.2003
4:00PM
Tuesday 08.05.2003
12:00PM
Tuesday 08.05.2003
7:00PM
Monday 08.11.2003
3:45PM
Monday 08.11.2003
11:10PM
Saturday 08.16.2003
8:30AM
Saturday 08.16.2003
7:15PM
Wednesday 08.20.2003
9:00PM
Thursday 08.21.2003
5:05AM
Sunday 08.24.2003
6:35AM
Sunday 08.24.2003
12:30PM
If you don't have Sundance channel, might want to see if it's available anywhere. This one's only about 5 minutes, but has to be
the most magical piece of Jazz and trains I've *EVER* seen!
A google turns up the following, but no signs of it being available anywhere:
http://www.google.com/search?q=DAYBREAK+EXPRESS+pennebaker
The one that Unca Dave pointed to was a marvellously redone copy - the color was brought out nicely (in the original it was hard to tell if it was color or B/W because the color had faded so) ... in fact the only complaint I had about the digitized version was that there were two bites cut out of the film (probably damage that was spliced out) but otherwise, spectacular.
While "3rd Avenue El" was more a documentary, DAYBREAK EXPRESS is more of an artsy "styling" of a film. NICE train shots, NICE TRACK shots, but most of all it's the way that the visuals DANCE to Duke Elllington's music ... that is what makes this one particularly special.
But no, I wouldn't waste people's time on something that's already been done here. :)
The other two el videos I saw in "Elevated City" were of the 2nd and
3rd Avenue els in Manhattan. One was a black and white "Edutainment
by Roy Creveling - Celluloid College" installment of the "If Things
Could Talk" series. The "thing that talked" in this one was a wooden
NYC el car. It covered both 2nd and 3rd Avenue els, and their inter-
change at Chatham Square, and showed one ending at City Hall Park and
another continuing further downtown past Wall Street to end at the
Staten Island Ferry terminal. The color Manhattan el video was of the
3rd Avenue el, and was silent except for a Chopin harpsichord piece
hammered out by Wanda Landowska, similar to the piano accompaniment
of silent films in the 1920's. A plot element was a dime that got
dropped and stuck in a corrugated wooden floorboard and which was
finally pried out by a young couple riding in the evening. I hope to
see these videos again at the Transit Museum itself when it reopens
in mid-September, and to buy them.
Third Ave El
Don't attempt it though if you are using dial-up, it will take forever to load. It's worth it, but much better with some sort of broadband connection.
Last year at the Transit Museum store I also saw a black and white short circa 1899 (maybe 5 minutes long) directed by Thomas Edison, of
an el train crossing the Brooklyn Bridge from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
Want to buy ? Speak softly, but carry a big bat, and I'll stay out of
your way.
Nice to know there's more stuff out there though! :)
Frazer Pennebaker
262 West 91st Street
NY, NY 10024
212-496-9195
It really IS that well done though ... somehow I don't think the artist is going to public domain it in our lifetime. And good stuff IS worth paying for.
Daybreak Express is an example of program music, where music is used to describe a non-musical image or event. In Daybreak Express, Duke Ellington featured trumpeter Cootie Williams and the saxophone section of the band to describe the movement of the train.
A Real Audio clip of the tune can be heard here:
http://web9.si.edu/smithsonianjazz/audio/real/de/de_daybreakexpress.rm
Now picture 1950's vintage shots of subway trains on elevated lines and you've got a movie. :)
http://dvdtalk.com/reviews/print.php?ID=4740
"Daybreak Express" is included as an extra on the DVD of another film,
"The Horse's Mouth" - Criterion #154
Criterion // Unrated // $29.95 // June 4, 2002
Apparently, "D. A. Pennebaker's short documentary Daybreak Express which opened the original New York theatrical run of The Horse's Mouth.. . .Accompanying Daybreak Express is a delightful introduction by Mr. Pennebaker explaining how his film and The Horse's Mouth came to be linked so closely together. "
http://www.pennebakerhegedusfilms.com/contact/buy.html
It's DEFINITELY worth the money.
The biggest isssue is to never record at a better resolution than 72 or 96 pixels per inch at most. The Standard 15" SVGA monitor displays 72 pixels per inch... anything more is a waste. The 17" SVGA monitor can display up to 96 px/in if you set it that way.
300 or 600 px/in (dpi) are for your printer not your monitor.
You can also adjust the compression ration of a jpg.
Small compression (3 or 4) is suficient for the web. I only use 10 or 12 if I am going to print the photo on my printer.
the standard monitor is set at 800 pixels, so a half screen photo would be 400 pixels, a quarter screen picture would be 200 pixels etc.
So set the image resolution to 72 pixels per inch, set the width to the size you want it to occupy on the screen, I usually use between 200 and 500 pixels depending on what I am using the shot for, and then Click Save As... and it should give you an opportunity to set the compression factor just before you save it.
Most of my web site pictures are less than 50KB most under 30KB.
Elias
And re the infamous Penn Central -- the merger and the New Haven inclusion were challenged in court, and the Supreme Court upheld it right after the bankruptcy was filed! Setting up Conrail also resulted in a Supreme Court challenge (rejected).
The Put never ran into GCT. It ran from 155th St. in da Bronx to Putnam Junction in Brewster. Passengers transferred to Hudson Branch service at High Bridge and to the el into the city at Sedgewick Ave.
Yonkers Branch service ended June 30, 1943. The last run was on the Put was May 29, 1959.
Oops! Off by one year. It was May 29, 1958.
Email me or respond to the post and maybe we can set something up
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Putnam%20Branch%20page/putnam.html
If anyone is shows interest in a walking tour of "The Put", maybe the autumn or spring may be the best time. Walking an abandoned ROW in the heat of the summer can be exhausting and with mosquitos and deer ticks, the cooler weather with less foilage on the trees is the best time.
Over ten years ago, a friend of mine and I walked the Rockaway Beach branch, a total of 4.2 miles. The cooler weather made it pleasant and with no leaves on the trees made photography easier.
Bill "Newkirk"
On a somewhat related note, Dave, do you think you could temporarily disable skfny's 50 post limit? He's going to be posting quite often from the outdoor sections of the trip, and while I don't think he'll go over 50 posts in 24 hours (he's limited to three recharges of the Treo via Zinc-air batteries), he just might. It's not a big deal if you can't or don't want to, and he didn't even want me to ask you to do this, but I think this "posting from the train" is revolutionary and in case sometihng cool is going on that would require over 50 posts, just for these next two days, the oppurtunity could be there for him. Thanks.
--Mark
THAT particular battery run helped us make up time we'd lost while
pointlessly lounging at 65th on the G.
Stir the Pot.
Current Station:Nevins St
You were talking 4:20pm
I was talking 4:20 am
JFK was twinkling lights in the distance and the sunset over the
Rockaways had us all glued to the windows and running one side
to the other.
All of us whipped out our cell phones to catch up and answer voicemails.
I look forward to skfny's next post to learn what happened next.
Being on the 1 sure raised MY spirits...
r30
Tell Chris Rivera, that if I does go psycho, I will carry on his plans for rebuilding the NYC subway system, although I anticipate $30 - 40 billion in cost over-runs. I will use some of that money to ensure he gets institutionalized in a hospital that has a nice view of a rapid transit facility.
That wouldn't be so easy to haul up and down stairs for transfers. They should have just been given a cab key for restroom breaks.
Without taking away from the feat just accomplished, and in the spirit of having to walk to school seven miles in a snow storm, uphill both ways; you have to hand it to the pioneers of the Grand Tour who went alone or with one other person, with no contact with the outside word by cel phone or internet, surviving on candy bars and sodas from platform machines, and using only the (ugh) public toilets. They would disappear into the bowels of the earth, and emerge a day later clutching the log book in which they entered their various transfers, to be known only by their small circle of railfan friends, since this was not the sort of behavior you would put on a job resumé. Those who tried and failed, didn't even mention to close friends that they had tried.
Tom
Kool-D was literally swooning toward the open gate... and was half
a foot away from elimination... which woulda led to a vote for new
leadership!
I almost stepped out at Church Ave on Q because the outside daylit street
looked FASCINATING..... and the instant my hand touched the
turnstyle bar, I looked down and realized WTF I was about to do..
ChrisRivera yelling "Hey Yo" saved my arse.
After arriving at Av X with the (F), have you planned to use
the F shuttle bus and then return to 148St?
If so, can you tell me your departing and arriving time (completion of
a loop)?
Right now, we are at 161 St-Yankee Stadium. The rush hour has begun. You can feel the difference on the trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't sleep...
Tried to get me some zzzz's on the D inbound but the LOUD debate by
R30 and Kool-D kept sheep-counting from me....
We saw Redbirds at CHAMBERS IRT, brahs!!
Wuzzah R30 *winkwink*
Tom
I'd like to meet up with them. I tried calling Chris but his phone is off, or I am calling when they are underground.
Looking at their route that's the last elevated section they are going to hit. I'll try to get in contact with Chris then.
If I do, don't worry, I can guarantee some pics! :)
I boarded at Crescent St on the J about 6:30 this evening. We rode to Parsons/Archer, then the E to Union Tpke, F to 179 and back to 71-Continental, R to Roosevelt Ave, F again to West 4, round trip on the Grand St Sh*ttle, C to Jay St with a brief layover at Fulton St Nassau platform, and, finally, F from Jay to Ave X. I accompanied Eugenia and Roger from the Times back on the F; the rest of the nuts wanted to ride shuttle buses ;^).
Pleasant dreams...
AMEN we did.
Cool dream eh?
I wonder what this says about your real life. Have you considered getting professional help? Only kidding!
I envision the "heyday" of Broadway Junction to have been from December 14th 1928 (when the Canarsie line between Montrose Avenue and Broadway Junction opened) to June 1 1940 when the Fulton el
stopped running from downtown Brooklyn to East New York. But before
then, and starting Dec 14 1928, there would have been three fully
functioning BMT elevated lines (Fulton, Jamaica and Canarsie) inter-
acting at Broadway Junction with each other and with the ENY subway
yard. I am aware that the eastern part of the Fulton el continued to
run from 1940 to 1956. I am also aware that the Fulton and Canarsie
lines had the formerly glorious but now being dismantled Atlantic Avenue station (six trackways, three platforms) in common from 1903?
to 1956.
I have studied the table of former BMT route numbers 1 through 16 to
answer my question. I see no evidence there of Jamaica and Fulton el
interaction. I see a route 13, in service from 1940 to 1956, of the
Canarsie Line turning onto the Fulton el east of Atlantic Avenue. I
know somewhere on nycsubway.org is information on BMT Canarsie and
Jamaica lines interaction/interchange at Bway Junction/Eastern Pkwy.
Old timey experts please comment. Thank you.
A two-track connector was built between the two lines, with two track leads both east and west from each line. In short, a train from either line approaching from either direction could operate to the other line in either direction. So Cypress Hills to Pitkin Avenue (or Canarsie) was possible. So was Broadway Ferry to Park Row.
At the time this was called Manhattan Junction or ENY Loop. There was even a reverse C shaped platform which covered Broadway L EB, the Loop's western track and Fulton EB.
This was destroyed with the Dual Contracts rebuilding into Broadway Junction.
"Flat interchanges" is descriptive but not generally used. I would say "level crossings," "at-grade junctions" or similar terms.
Remember that, just as there was no such thing as an acoustic guitar until there was an electric guitar, there was really no such thing as a "level crossing" until there were fly-over junctions.
The South Shore’s full name is actually the Chicago, South Shore & South Bend Railroad. They are often referred to as “America’s last interurban.” They still handled less than car load packages into the early 1970’s. And they were still as much of an intercity hauler of passengers between South Bend and Chicago as a true commuter railroad, although that would gradually change.
I frequently refer to the South Shore as just “the Shore” or “the Jolly Trolley.” In the days when I worked there, it was often said “If you really want to get to Chicago in the worst way possible, it was no worse than the South Shore.” That was likely because of their poor on time performance. We’ll discuss that aspect in a bit. The modernization of the South Shore into what it was in the early 80’s prior to full dieselization and the acquisition of the stainless steel Sumitomo built cars goes back to the days of Samuel Insull who also owned the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee and the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin. Insull gained his interest in the bankrupt Lake Shore company in 1914. The name of the reorganized road became what has become commonly known as the South Shore. After the financial collapse of the nation’s economy in 1929, Insull developed his own problems both financial and legal. He lost the South Shore in 1932. In 1937 Insull passed away.
The CA&E ceased passenger operations in 1955 and freight service in 1959 and was legally abandoned in 1961. The North Shore ceased operations in 1963, but the South Shore continued to soldier on. In the days before the government initiated subsidies to passenger railroads, these two carriers could not sustain their operations with rapidly dwindling ridership levels. The South Shore’s stronger freight base may have been a significant part of this as well as more stable passenger ridership levels. The other two roads did not have the large volumes of freight traffic the South Shore enjoyed. Also, the South Shore had a tremendous advantage in that they used the Illinois Central to reach downtown Chicago whereas the other two Insull roads were required to operate on the routes of the Chicago Transit Authority to reach the big city. The operation over the CTA prohibited the use longer and heavier cars by the CA&E and North Shore thus placing greater restrictions on them. The development of a better highway system in the corridors they both served also dealt them a death blow.
In late 1966 the Interstate Commerce Commission granted approval for the Chesapeake & Ohio to purchase the South Shore. This transaction was completed in 1967. The C&O kept the South Shore distanced from the rest of its system, sort of the red-headed step child as it were. When C&O created its Chessie System folding the C&O, Baltimore & Ohio and Western Maryland under a single corporate umbrella, the South Shore was left out in the cold. The big kitty cat emblem was not used on South Shore equipment or letterhead. They kept their own corporate identity, bow tie emblem and all.
The South Shore employs a 1500 volt DC overhead electrical system to power their passenger trains. Much of this overhead trolley system dates back to the days of Insull ownership as well and in recent years has become prone to failure. In the early days of Insull ownership, the line was converted from the 6600 volt AC of predecessor company Chicago, Lake Shore & South Bend to the current 1500 volt DC system. Today, efforts are being made to upgrade it all. Like everything else with commuter railroading, this required financial assistance from the state and federal governments. And like all the other passenger roads in this country, they are competing with each other for such funds.
Prior to complete dieselization in 1981, much of the freight operations were powered by electricity. However during the days of electrified freight operations, the South Shore did operate a few diesels. A switcher acquired from a short line in New York in 1955 and six switchers were acquired from parent C&O in 1969. These switchers would yield to a group of five C&O GP7’s. We’ll get more into the dieselization of the South Shore later.
Today though, only passenger trains run on “the juice.” In my days there, most of the freight yards were still wired and energized for electric operation. Even though electric freight operations were discontinued some four years previous, all of the required equipment was still in place and in service. I never understood this fact being that it was highly unlikely there would be electric locomotives plying the route again. I figured they would yank down as much of the unused catenary system as possible for salvage. There’s a lot of money to be made in recycling copper and steel. When I asked one official about this, he replied “In case we ever have an emergency of some sort and need to operate passenger trains through the yard, we can do so.
The passenger cars in service today are of a modern design built of stainless steel. The first forty-four of them were built in 1982 by Sumitomo Heavy Industries of Japan. Like the MU Highliners used on the ICG and Metra Electric District, these cars produce 600 horsepower of traction. Unlike their Metra cousins though, they have the field shunt portion of their throttle controllers operational and these cars can achieve 90 MPH, although they vibrate considerably at that speed. The initial forty-four car fleet replaced the old well known and probably far more well-worn Insull era steel coaches built between 1926 and 1929. Some of you may recall these old cars and their bright orange and maroon paint and the cartoon decals calling them “The little train that could.”
These cars received extensive modifications in rebuilding after World War Two with some of them being stretched by over seventeen feet to accommodate more passengers. Their life expectancy was extended in the process. The philosophy was that this would be more prudent than purchasing new equipment at that time.
The Insull era cars were becoming prone to failure as they were aging rapidly. The mechanical forces at the South Shore’s mechanical and electrical forces did an incredible job to keep them running as long as they did. During the severe winter of 1978-79 the Chicago/Northwest Indiana region received three times the normal snowfall as well as an extended period of sub zero weather. The old cars showed their age and demonstrated the fact that time cannot be stopped, but only temporarily delayed. Many of these cars (as well as some of the catenary system) suffered failures and passenger service was very briefly suspended. The Regional Transportation Authority (RTA), forerunner to today’s Metra came to the rescue loaning the South Shore several sets of gallery cars and diesels to resume some sort of passenger service. Eventually the weather warmed and the snow melted. The catenary was repaired and the old cars were placed back into service.
Couple this massive equipment failure to the difficulty in getting parts for these old war birds and the fact that structurally these cars were now rated at about 50% of their built strength and you have the equation that demonstrated the dire need for new equipment. The stage was set to obtain the stainless steel cars.
As we begin the tour, for reference sake I will make all notations of the South Shore route in the past tense. There have been numerous changes and improvements to the line since I left their employ. It is not my intent to discuss them here though as this will be mostly a retrospective look.
The South Shore route extends from Randolph Street Station in Chicago to South Bend, a distance of about ninety miles (89.7 to be exact). The 14.2 miles between Randolph Street Station and Kensington are via trackage rights on the what used to be the Illinois Central (and later Illinois Central Gulf) and today Metra’s Electric District. Several years after I departed from there, passenger service was extended to the South Bend Airport. This plan was on the table and being discussed back in the mid 80’s. Prior to the South Shore obtaining the trackage rights on the IC, their trains used to stop at Kensington and passengers transferred to IC trains there. Some trains continued through on the IC, pulled by IC steam locomotives into Chicago.
That portion of the route between Kensington and State Line was actually owned by a subsidiary of the ICG and leased to the South Shore. It was known as 1the Kensington & Eastern. The South Shore had a subsidiary company that leased the line called the Indiana & Kensington. This was a paper shuffle thing and no equipment or stations ever bore either of these names. South Shore rules and timetables applied and the line was operated, dispatched and maintained by the South Shore. When the ICG sold off their Electric District to Metra in 1987, this portion was sold to Metra as well. Today, the RTA, Metra’s parent authority, funds service on this portion of the route. And they actually own a group of the passenger coaches. In my days there the RTA owned eight of these coaches. They are easily spotted carrying RTA logos instead of NICTD (Northern Indiana Commuter Transit District) logos.
Both the ICG and Conrail had trackage rights over the K&E between Kensington and the Calumet River Bridge. The ICG used them to affect interchange with the South Shore and reach the Port of Chicago. I never heard or witnessed any Conrail movements on the line. At one time Conrail predecessor Michigan Central used to connect to the IC and South Shore at Kensington.
A scrap and iron operation just southeast of Kensington used Conrail for rail service. In my MoPac days I recall seeing a Conrail engine down there from time to time switching them. It is quite possible that Conrail may have used the South Shore to affect interchange of some of this business with the ICG and perhaps the South Shore. Today, the IHB switches this operation and the physical connection between the South Shore and Conrail at Kensington is long removed. In fact, the connection was no longer there in my days at the Shore, but evidence of it still clearly existed.
The South Shore was double track from Kensington to just east of the Gary station and single track from this point east to South Bend. At one time up to the early 80’s, the crossing and connection to the IC/ICG was double track. The plant was rebuilt by the ICG and this connection and crossing was converted into a single track affair. (Hmm, looks like the beginning of a pattern here.) The end of double track in Gary used to be called just that, “End Double Track” on the station pages in the timetable. Today though, it is known as Emerson. A spring switch was employed at this location. Westbound trains were lined to the westbound track and eastbound trains could just “spring the points” as they trailed through the switch, which then lined itself back after the train cleared. The use of a hydraulic cylinder accomplished the automatic lining back of the switch to the normal route.
Several sidings known as high speed sidings (but often referred to as open passing sidings) were located at Wagner (between Miller and Ogden Dunes, Wilson (at Portage) and Tamarack which is east of Beverly Shores. These sidings also employed spring switches at either end. They are normally lined to take you to the right no matter what direction you were traveling. This means a stop was not required to line switches when using these sidings. The speed through the turnouts was 35 to 40 MPH.
There is another siding at Sheridan on the northwest side of Michigan City. This siding was shorter in length and had slower speed turnouts, 15 MPH. Like the three high speed siding, trains always stayed to the right in either direction. All other sidings were of standard railroad fare using the hand operated switches to enter. Most of these switches were also spring switches so that trains departing off these sidings did not have to normally hand operate them, they just ran through the switch and the points would “spring” and automatically line for the movement.
The route was basically an east-west configuration, although like most other railroads, turned to the north and south a bit here and there. The line followed the profile around the southern tip of Lake Michigan. To eliminate as many railroad crossings at grade as possible, the South Shore was built over or under many of the railroads the encountered along the way. This gave the line a man made roller coaster profile. Some of these man-made grades ranged from 1.98% to over 3%.
We’ll begin the tour heading east from Kensington. As I have already mentioned the connection to the former Michigan Central removed at Kensington. While there was a connection to the N&W near the Ice House crossovers and also a connection towards the Port of Chicago and also the LaSalle & Bureau County (predecessor to the Chicago Rail Link which took over this portion of the now defunct Rock Island), there was no actual track to pass over or under. In this territory, switch keys of the Illinois Central Gulf were used instead of South Shore keys.
The first rail lines encountered were the Norfolk & Western and Chicago & Western Indiana. These two roads were crossed overhead at what is known as “Ford City Curve” located near the Ford Assembly Plant in Chicago’s Hegewisch neighborhood. The Shore dropped back down to ground level and then paralleled these two routes up towards State Line.
Conrail’s South Chicago & Southern Line (SC&S) was crossed at grade at Burnham, a little east of the Hegewisch station and just west of Burnham Avenue. This plant was controlled by the Operator at Burnham. The Operator, a Conrail employee, was located in a modular unit that replaced the tower that burned here in 1977. This modular was located in the southwest quadrant south of the N&W tracks and west of the SC&S. No connection for interchange purposes existed between the South Shore and Conrail at Burnham.
Burnham Yard is located in between Burnham Avenue and State Line. At the east end of the yard there was a connection between the CWI whose main tracks were just south of the yard. At one time the Belt Railway of Chicago brought loaded coal trains to the South Shore for MoPac. Before that, the MoPac and their C&EI predecessor delivered these trains to Burnham themselves. The Belt also delivered ore trains as well. Burnham Yard was used daily be several South Shore freight runs. No crews were based out of Burnham, they all came in with trains from Michigan City, performed their work there and then headed back home with their outbound trains when finished. A siding located on the north side of the main tracks between State Line and the west end of Burnham was used for storage. It was called State Line siding. There was also an industry that received rail service located at the west end of the yard.
A few years after I left the Shore, the west end of State Line Siding was the scene of a fatal wreck when some cars rolled out and a westbound passenger train struck them killing the Engineer of that train.
The IHB’s Burnham Industrial Track, once known as the Roby Branch, crossed at grade at State Line. This plant was controlled by the Operator at State Line Tower. The tower was a little to the south of here closer to the N&W, positioned on the north side of their line. At this point in time, the Operator was still a CWI employee.
The Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal was crossed overhead in East Chicago. A connection to the B&OCT was just west of the overhead and this connection crossed this line at grade. It was protected by an automatic interlocking. From approximately just east of Calumet Avenue to the far west side of Gary was all ground level at one time with street running in East Chicago. One of my uncles that grew up in East Chicago used to talk of “catching the trolley” when it still operated on the streets to go downtown in his younger days. He recalled a 15 cent fare, ten cents for the Shore and five cents for the transfer to the IC at Kensington. As part of the project to build the Indiana Toll Road (I-90 in 1956, the line was relocated to the south a bit and elevated. The route now parallels the south side of I-90 all the way to Cline Avenue where the two separate for a stretch through Gary before coming up side by side again for a stretch.
The IHB Kankakee Line is also crossed overhead as is the parallel Kennedy Avenue. A siding used for storage and known as Parrish is located east of here and just west of Cline Avenue. Today coal trains are often held here. At one time a steel transloading operation was based here. Steel was loaded from trucks onto rail cars for shipment. A lead branched out from the east end of the siding making a turn to the north, passed over the main tracks and then turned back west to reach a couple of industries in East Chicago. One of them was Harbison-Walker, a refractory. We switched them on an as needed basis, although I never actually got to make this move, although I did observe it a couple of times.
Conrail’s Fort Wayne Line and the remnants of the Wabash, now a just a branch line of the N&W used to reach a sugar plant in Gary were crossed from above just east of Clark Road on the infamous Gary Gauntlet Bridge. This bridge gained national fame after a tragic collision between two passenger trains that resulted in several passenger deaths in the early 1990’s. At one time there was an interchange yard located just west of here at Clark Road but it was long removed, a victim of the mergers and consolidations of the 70’s and 80’s. It was and remains a passenger stop.
In downtown Gary, the route was elevated with a project in the early 80’s. This elevation lifted the railroad up from street level and eliminated several road crossings. A new station was built here as well that connected to the Gary Transportation Center, later renamed the Adam Benjamin Transportation in honor of the late Indiana politician who was a staunch supported of the South Shore and passenger rail. This was also the location of a serious head on collision in early 1985. A small yard was located here. There were two tracks, one east and one west of the station platform. The west track was the storage track and the east track was the add track. Some trains either dropped off or picked up cars here. Some trains originated and terminated here as well to compliment the rush hour fleet. No equipment was kept here overnight or on weekends. A Carman was on duty during the day and evening to assist in adding or reducing cars from trains and also to assist with air tests.
The Indiana Toll Road parallels the line again here on the north side. EJ&E’s Kirk Yard, Conrail’s Chicago Line, the B&O main line and US Steel’s sprawling Gary Works are all directly across the toll road from the Gary Station and elevation.
Heading on east, the route crossed an EJ&E industrial lead at grade. This crossing was known as the Bolt Works. A gate was used to protect this crossing. It was normally lined against “The J.” E J&E crews normally only worked this line in the evening with a job out of Kirk Yard called the “City Job.” I actually worked it a couple of times in my days at the J. The interchange with the J at Goff Jct. was located just east of here. When a J crew needed to cross, the ascertained of there were any approaching South Shore trains, if there were none, they could operate the gate and proceed across. They were required to restore the gate to normal as soon as they cleared the crossing.
Miller is next where the B&O is crossed overhead. There will be more about Miller in part two. East of Miller Conrail’s Chicago Line comes up and parallels the South Shore on the north side all the way to Burns Harbor. The Chicago Line is then crossed overhead between the west end of Conrail’s Burns Harbor Yard and the main entrance to Bethlehem Steel.
No other rail lines are encountered until reaching Michigan City. Amtrak’s route (known as the Amtrak Line) between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo, MI was crossed at grade at 10th Street. This crossing was controlled by the Amtrak Operator at the Drawbridge located on the north side of Michigan City. This line was once the Michigan Central’s Detroit to Chicago Line. The N&W’s Michigan City Branch was crossed at grade at the west end of Shops Yard. This crossing was protected by stop signs. Trains stopped, if no cross traffic was on or closely approaching the crossing, you whistled off and proceeded. Also at Michigan City was the crossing of the C&O. This crossing was east of Shops Yard. If memory serves me correctly, the C&O crossed overhead.
Shops Yard was the hub and base of all South Shore operations. A storage yard for passenger cars a small freight yard, freight and passenger repair facilities, a wash rack, fueling and sanding facilities and the South Shore’s general offices were located here. A passenger station was located on the south side of the tracks a little west of the offices.
Being that I only made a few trips east of the yard limits at Michigan City out to South Bend, I really don’t recall a great deal of this portion of the line. I do remember the C&O branch line from New Buffalo, MI to Wellsboro, IN that was east of Michigan City proper and passed above. There was a siding at Olive and I recall affecting a meet there once when I was a student. It used the standard hand operated switched equipped with springs so that we didn’t have to restore them to normal when departing. At New Carlisle Conrail’s Chicago Line again paralleled the route, this time on the south side and all the way to South Bend. I do recall was the station, which was shared with Amtrak. Amtrak trains operating on the Chicago Line made regular stops here. I also recall there being a connection to Conrail somewhat west of the station as well.
At one time the line extended a couple of miles further using some street running in South Bend to a store front style passenger station. This use of the section of the railroad was discontinued several years before I joined the employ.
I never had the opportunity to work a freight job east to South Bend, so I have no recollection of who was where industry wise and how or when they were serviced. I didn’t know how or exactly where we connected to the Grand Trunk Western either. I do recall though that there was not daily freight service to South Bend, generally the freight run only went as far east as the Carborundum plant near Olive daily.
I do recollect a long grade that existed east of Lalumiere. Several grain trains that were operated across this section of the railroad required the use of four GP38-2 locomotives to make the grade.
The entire route was under automatic block signal rules with the double track portion being signaled only in the direction specified by the timetable. The north track was the westbound and the south track was the eastbound and they were signaled in their respective directions only. The single track portion was signalled in both directions. Timetable schedules and train orders were used to operate trains along with the block signal indications.
An unusual feature to the South Shore’s train orders was both a complete time and OK time. You got both when an order was repeated correctly. The times were one minute apart except when they occurred at noon or midnight. Then, the one time was 1159 and the other was 1201 am or pm depending upon the time of day.
There were no Operators copying and delivering orders to crews in my days there although at one time station agents did handle the copying and delivery of them. The Conductor or Engineer copied them all be it on the train via radio or at one of the stations using the Dispatcher phone. All trains were required to obtain either a clearance stating there were no orders or an actual order for their train at Randolph Street in Chicago, Michigan City Shops Yard or South Bend. There were order boards at both Michigan City and Gary. At Gary a clearance or train order was not required if the order board displayed a green (clear) indication. If this signal was red, the Conductor or Engineer was required to call for order either on the radio or through the use of a Dispatcher phone which was located in the train register room on the station platform. Ironically, the train order signals were the only signals the Train Dispatcher actually controlled.
All regular passenger trains had timetable schedules and all freight jobs operated as extras. Extra passenger trains were operated as required, but they normally operated on train orders. They could be given an order to operate as a second section of a regular scheduled train. There were provisions in the rule book that allowed this but I don’t recall that happening while I was there.
A difference between the South Shore and other railroads was the amount of time a schedule was in effect. With most railroads the timetable schedule was good for twelve hours. With the South Shore, it was three hours. Once a train became three hours late at a station, its schedule was annulled and a train order would have to be issued for the train to proceed.
Even though there were timetable scheduled meets between passenger trains on the timetable schedule page, meets could be and often were changed with train orders. Instead of getting a clearance at one of the required stations, you might get a call order. It might read something like “Call for orders at Tremont”. This meant that train could not pass this location without either getting a train order or clearance. This method was used to “tie down” a train irregardless of timetable schedule. It gave the Dispatcher flexibility to be creative if there were freight jobs running around or perhaps a very tardy passenger train. If the situation didn’t require a meet, the Dispatcher would then issue a clearance to the train being tied down. It would read something like “Clearance number 205 to train 20 no orders.” It would be repeated and the times given and you went on your merry way. Now should something like a meet be required, you would get a train order with the required instructions instead of the clearance.
In the event you were required to operate against the current of traffic in the double track territory, a train order would be issued to any and all trains affected. It might read “The westward track will be used as single track between End of Double Track to East Chicago from 1001am until 401pm.” This might occur if there was track or wire work going on that would require the track involved to have to be removed from service. This order would be issued to all trains involved and when in effect, single track rules applied to the portion of track that was being operated as single track. And train order meets would have to be established.
In yard limit territory, freight runs could operate as a yard engine upon permission of the Train Dispatcher, but were restricted to a maximum of 20 MPH irregardless of signal indication. Yard Limits were located at South Bend from the passenger station to a little west of the Grandview power substation, in Michigan City between Meer Road (which was east of the yard) to just west of the west end of Power Siding, which was next to the NIPSCO plant on the northwest side of Michigan City, in Gary between Goff Jct. and just west of Clark Road, between East Chicago and Hegewisch and between Kensington and the Calumet River Bridge.
There was street running in town in Michigan City on 10th and 11th Streets. Three stoplights at intersections along the way governed both train and motor vehicle movements. There was a system that normally activated when the trains were on the approach that set the stoplights for green on the parallel 11th Street and the railroad holding the cross traffic at each intersection. White indicator lights mounted on top of a couple of telephone poles at either end of this section would flash to indicate this holding system was operating. The street running is what necessitated the installation of the yellow markers at the lower end of the front and red markers at the lower end of the rear cars of each passenger car. These markers lights created more visibility for motorists driving along side the trains. Trains operating on the city streets normally kept their headlights on a setting less than bright so as to not blind drivers of oncoming automobiles and trucks. Maximum speed on the street running was 25 MPH.
Maximum speed was 70 MPH for passenger trains between Shops Yard in Michigan City and the Calumet River Bridge and 50 MPH for freight. It was lower for passenger, 65 MPH between Shops Yard and South Bend. There were some lower speeds in effect at various locations that applied to both freight and passenger. Loaded unit coal trains were restricted to 40 MPH. Passenger operation on the ICG portion of the run was a maximum of 65 MPH. And like the South Shore proper, there were some restrictions that required lower operating speeds.
I previously mentioned timetable schedules so let’s dwell upon this subject. Before train schedules were reworked the on time performance of the passenger trains was only 57%. At that time it was the worst of all commuter railroads in North America. The South Shore had become a victim of their own success. Their passenger ridership levels had been steadily increasing. As a result there was added dwell time at each station to load the passengers. To accommodate freight operations, there were no high level platforms, all loading and discharging of passengers was done at ground level, so it took a bit longer.
The previous schedules did not accommodate the added delays at nearly all of the stations, so trains quickly fell behind schedule. Then to exacerbate the situation, the tardy trains would then often miss their windows at Kensington to enter the ICG and then fall even further behind. The scheduling of all trains on the ICG required on time, or close to on time performance so as not to disrupt the entire operation.
To remedy this situation, a completely revamped schedule was worked out and a new timetable was issued. On December 1, 1985, timetable number 1 replaced timetable number 5 of October 31, 1982. This timetable added time to the schedules of all the trains; six minutes to the Gary-Chicago trains, ten minutes to the Michigan City-Chicago trains, and fifteen minutes to the South Bend-Chicago trains. South Bend-Chicago service was also increased. It also modified the originating times of many trains as well with some leaving their initial station a little earlier and others a little later.
The South Shore was known for many years for their “Little Joe” electric locomotives. These were part of a group of what was to have been twenty locomotives built for export to Russia in 1946 under the era of Josef Stalin under the Lend/Lease plan, hence the Little Joe nickname. These 5500 horsepower, 270+ ton locomotives were never shipped to the Soviet Union and instead, and sold in the United States. The Milwaukee Road bought a group of them having to modify them to the standard US gauge of 56½ inches. The South Shore also obtained three of them in 1949. These three, which were the last three built by General Electric were built to US gauge with the hope of selling them in the United States. As originally built, the Little Joe’s were designed o operate on a 3300 volt DC current. South Shore mechanical forces modified them for the 1500 volt system on their line. While the Milwaukee Road sent theirs out to pasture in the 70’s the Shore retired theirs in 1981. One of them survives today at the Illinois Railway Museum and another at the B&O Museum. The unit used for a parts source was scrapped.
As I had mentioned earlier, a group of switchers were acquired from parent C&O. Several Geeps were acquired to replace the aging switchers. Bethlehem Steel would not allow electric locomotives into their facility so diesels were required. Several more Geeps came from C&O to replace aging electric locomotives. These Geeps wore the solid blue with yellow trim of C&O and were numbered 1501 to 1508, a reflection of their horsepower rating. They carried the South Shore logo on their car bodies, again no reference to parent C&O other than the colors.
Like the Insull era passenger cars, parts became difficult, if not impossible to obtain for the electric locomotives. One of the Little Joe’s was retired in the mid 70’s and used as a parts source to keep the others running. To replace more of the electric locomotives, three more GP7’s were acquired in 1978, this time from the Florida East Coast. These three units had been stored for quite some time before coming to the South Shore. They were in poor mechanical shape. Unlike the former C&O Geeps, these units were never repainted or renumbered. They carried their FEC 600 series numbers up to the end of their days on the South Shore. With the addition of the former FEC units, all remaining electric locomotives except the Little Joe’s were retired.
The Engineers at the Shore often spoke of their disdain for these Geeps. They complained of their poor mechanical and electrical condition and frequent problems encountered with their operation. They told of the former FEC units being infested with mice while stored in Florida. The mice apparently made the trip to Indiana. Wiring was badly damaged by these pesky critters.
All of the Engineers praised the Little Joe’s and other electric locomotives though. They frequently mentioned their ability to pull just about anything. However, the downfall of the Little Joe’s aside from age, was the fact the South Shore’s aging electrical delivery system was not able to supply enough voltage to allow the Joe’s to operate at full capacity. This restricted them to 3000 tons of freight. NIPSCO had acquired a large fleet of their own coal hoppers and high side gons as they wanted to operate 100+ car unit trains with the capacity to haul 10,000 or more tons of coal at a time. The tonnage restriction on the Joe’s made them impractical for unit train service. In their final years, the Joe’s usually only worked the Gary Switcher assignment.
In 1981 all of the old Geeps and the Little Joe’s were replaced with a fleet of ten, brand new GP38-2’s from Electro Motive Division of General Motors. The aging GP7’s had become more and more unreliable and seemed to be out of service as much as they were in service. The new power would eliminate this problem offering greater reliability and actually saving the South Shore money over the years.
With the arrival of the new power a few of the GP7’s were transferred back to parent C&O and continued to soldier on for several years. The South Shore logos were blanked out with a little blue paint and “C&O” was stenciled onto their sides. The others were sold off. The new GP38-2’s were not built to regular Chessie System standards though as they were not equipped with dynamic brakes. While they had the blue over yellow portion of the Chessie System color scheme, they lacked the vermillion red stripes that separated these colors and the vermillion side sills. They also lacked the Chessie System logo and name on their flanks. Instead, the “South Shore Line” name appeared on the car bodies and the noses were blank. A couple of them did eventually receive a South Shore logo on them over the years though. They did carry the distinction of being the first new diesels ever acquired by the Shore.
The GP38-2’s were given numbers in the 2000 series again not in the pattern of other Chessie System power. This number series reflected their two-thousand horsepower rating. The 2000-2003 were equipped with snow plows as well. Those of even numbers were pointed facing west and the odd numbered units were pointed facing east. The practice of facing the diesels in this manner was begun with the arrival of the C&O GP7’s. This method bodes with the numbering method of South Shore passenger trains. Unlike most American railroads that numbered eastward trains with even numbers and westward trains with odd numbers, the South Shore did the exact opposite. Now this was not because they were mavericks, it was to mesh with their trackage rights operation on the ICG.
The Electric District of the ICG was a north-south operation and their numbering system reflected that with southbound trains using odd numbers and northbound trains using even numbers. When South Shore trains hit the ICG property, their even numbered westbound trains become northbound even numbered trains on the ICG. See, there is a method to the madness. Also, while operating on ICG and today, Metra trackage, South Shore trains had the digit 9 added as a prefix to their symbol. For example, train number 10 became train 910 and train number 305 became 9305 while operating on ICG trackage.
The South Shore did experience growth in 1980. They acquired some additional trackage in Michigan City from the Louisville & Nashville. L&N retrenched from their Michigan City Branch of the former Monon north of Medaryville, IN. There were still several industries that required rail service in Michigan City and the segment of it that extended from the connection with the C&O down to just north of I-94 was acquired by the South Shore. Trackage rights over about six miles of the C&O were used to access this track. I did get to work this line a couple of times but really do not recall the industries that were serviced. I do seem to remember switching about three or four places though. I seem to recall operation on the line was on an as needed as opposed to daily basis.
There was also some industrial trackage in Michigan City that was reached from the east end of the yard at NIPSCO. There were several industries along this line, but the only one I can recall was Squibb & Sons.
Rail mergers and the economic situation in the United States during the early 1980’s caused the South Shore’s fortunes to begin to wane a bit. Several industries along the South Shore scaled back or ceased operations. A few others quit using rail service. While they had the two NIPSCO plants and Bethlehem Steel receiving coal trains the South Shore had lost what bridge traffic they did have. In the mid 1980’s, Chessie System, parent of the C&O decided the South Shore no longer fit in with their grand scheme, whatever that was. They sold off the entire property off to a group of former Santa Fe officials that formed a company called Venango River Corp. The name comes from a river in Pennsylvania. The Venango River boys, as they were often called, looked to make the South Shore a greater contributor to the Chicago area railroad scene.
With that we bring part one to a close. In part two we will look at the changes brought forth by Venango and some of the operations.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Probably the Brightliners (R-32). They should be the oldest of the rolling stock in revenue service, but not looking their age either.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=526821
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=527949
So, were you just up at Lenox to see the Ultimate Riders start the Ultimate Ride?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Why would they be testing? The 3 isn't getting any R-142 assignments (the R-142 order is complete, and everything that's left is going to the 4). Even if it were, what would need to be tested?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I don't understand. There are rarely R-142 sets on the (3), but yet there is an R-142 set on the (3) every day? Make up your mind!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I can't see how the doors in all five cars would line up with the gap fillers at South Ferry.
If it did, then the TA must have changed its mind again and decided to put R142s on the "3". But somehow I don't believe that because the "3" already have a few R62s assigned to it already.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If it hooks up with Westchester(6)what provisions are made for special configurations of R142.
As it stands the current cars on the shuttle will wind up on the #7 with the other R62A's.
#3 R62's all in 5 car links from the #4
#4 ( this is the cause of a mixup since Bloomberg demanded
the entire lex ave line to be R142 and R142A's
IT will have
-R142's remaining from the Pelham fleet #76xx,77xx
-Ri42A's remaining from the 2/5 #70xx,71xx
in addition #11xx,12xx
_R62A's remaining the the 1 and 7 for use on mainline
and shuttle service, in the past the cars on the
shuttle have been shopped at vatious locations
Now, they can only come off the 7 or the 4
#6 R142's
#7 R62a's groups of 5 car links
assorted consists of 6 to make up other component of #7 trains
When did Bloomberg say that? I would think with Redbirds on all three Lex lines in the past, it made sense for all of them to get R142s. That's why there are R142/142A's on the 4, 5, and 6. Same goes for the 2. I don't think Bloomberg had anything to do with it.
The R142s on the #2 are #6301-6690
The R142s on the #5 are #6691-7065
The R142s on the #4 are #7066-7180, #1101-1250
The R142As on the #4 are #7216-7220, 7406-7410, 7661-7680, 7686-7725
And the 20 R62As on the "S" 42nd Street shuttle are R62As originally from Livonia, but now are going to be assigned to Jerome: livonia is going to have the 1301-1625 R62 assignment, so no 62As for them.
Thank you
If trains that have signs to show their route on their left side in front (R40, R40M, R42, R62, R68, R44, R46) are overhauled, they should receive a small plasma screen in place of the roller assembly. A train car would be about $6000 more, however. The screen would brightly display the letter or number, and it would be clear and legible. The screen would need to be behind plexiglass or polycarbonate.
Also, if a more legible form of the electronic signs on the R44 and R46 were put on these overhauled trains, then the train would have less moving parts and be slightly more reliable, and therefore cheaper. However, the increased electricity consumption may be a problem.
Sure a 60" plasma screen costs $6000, but what do you think all of those rollers lights and curtains cost? Easily $6000 is my guess.
Take that junk out and put the new screen behind the existing window.
What might cost is to replace the side signs with something like this, albeit a smaller version. It can update ala PowerPoint sorta thingie with each station.
Elias
You can find the main photos at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/07-11-03_NYCS_BRONX_TRIP/
And the tower related photos (including some NYSC towers like W 4th St) at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
The photos are the 14 ones at the top of the listing dated 24-Jul-2003
And as always some teasers:
Here is the home signal at E180th Interlocking. We are waiting for out lineup from the tower.
Here is my PATH train racing and BEATING NJT ALP-46 #4621
A side view from the recently closed HUDSON tower from my PATH train
That photo is great! I love it!
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/littlebrothers/littlebrothers.html
LaGuardia was absolutely fanatical on the subject, and I wonder how much of that attitude played some sort of role in the city not making any kind of effort in keeping the World's Fair extension of the Queens Boulevard line open following 1940, or making the capital improvements necessary to connect the 9th Avenue El stub with the Lenox Avenue line in the same era
Thank you, Dave, for the new Myrtle Avenue page. Thank you also for
re-organizing the BMT C el car page and adding some new info to some
photos (like Hinsdale Street).
At one time the Myrtle, Fulton, Lexington, and 3rd and 5th Avenue els all converged at Sands St. at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge. It
would be interesting to know what headway, signaling, and switching
were like there, as well as frequency of el trains crossing the
Brooklyn Bridge.
No, but you can go there and look at it. Every webmaster runs a site for their own reasons. If they want to contribute material to me, that's cool and if they want to run their own site and host their own stuff, that's cool too.
Hey Dave - idea - how 'bout a page called "clues and remnants" ?
You don't need it here. Kevin Walsh has it all covered in his Forgotten NY
I hope your church painting goes well next week, and that you enjoy your Kum Kao takeout, and get some great pics of the Myrtle Avenue el remnant between Broadway and Lewis, in the bargain !
Yours for the glorious past,
"Nostalgiaddict"
I know I took a whole roll of pictures on the last day of operation. What happened to them I don't know. When my parents died years ago I bought out the old house from the rest of the estate and moved back. I looked everywhere for the pics and couldn't find them. Hopefully they will eventually turn up and I'll post them. At least I have the wicker seat I stole from the Q Car!!!
By the way, Sumner Av is now Marcus Garvey Blvd.
I have an NJT system map.
One of these? (I know this is Metropolitan, but you get the idea)
Or do you mean the ones from under the canopies?
Climbing onto that el may have been the stupidest thing I've ever done. I walked the tracks, at night, from Metro to Queens Blvd. This was in 1987. Yes, the third rail was still active (some of those temporary light fixtures were attached to the rail to provide illumination at the Metropolitan Ave mezzanine). So were the signals, although all were red and tripcocks set in the upright position.
The closest I ever came was sneaking into the abandoned mezzanine at Forest Ave one day when I found the door to the stairway enclosure unlocked one day. It sure was cool, but couldn't have been half as cool as checking out that abandoned el and stations!
I think it would of been risky to tear down the Myrtle Av el station while having the Broadway el right underneath it.
Notice the now removed mezzanine:
Unless you lived through the transformation of some of the stations going from grafitti, to no grafitti in the late 80's - early 90's, you have no idea how strange it was to walk into a station you were so used to seeing trashed, for years, and finally seeing it clean. It was VERY blue (every paintable surface became blue - doors - everything), but I wish I photographed it before they put the white primer on to finally cover 2 decades worth of grafitti. What a difference! This was repeated so many times over throughout the system during that time....
I know what you mean about the graffiti. I didn't realize how oppressive it had been until it started changing for the better in the 80's. Before then, "masterpieces" covered whole sides of subway
cars, including the windows, so you couldn't see out the windows to see what station you were pulling into. Inside, the black marker graffiti on light surfaces made me feel like I was inside one big vomit, the diseased and defaced intestines of some huge animal. Riding the M from Chambers to Wyckoff and Myrtle in the early 80's, I remember doors opening and closing sometimes a dozen times per station
due to kids blocking them, before the train could proceed.
pink - Wyckoff
The Orange was barely tolerable, but that pink was just awful on an el station. I also remember that horrible color at some underground stations, like the Union Square Complex, 7th/53rd, Myrtle (L), and Van Alst, among many others. Yuck!
D
Any comments are appreciated.
We start out at the 64R signal displaying STOP. It had previously been displaying CLEAR, and had our engineer proceeded past it we would have ended up in Harrisburg instead of Trenton. Note that the 76R signal behind it is still routed for the R5. Operator ZOO had to knock down the 64R and then run a 4 minute timer before the switches would free up and that is where we are now.
Ok, the timer has run and now Operator ZOO has reversed the 65 turnout and displayed a SLOW APPROACH signal (15 mph w/in interlocking limits, 30 outside, preparing to stop at next signal) allowing our train to proceed down to (in)famous K-Ladder to the Berry track.
Ok, we are now on the K-Ladder (note the rust), about to travel over the two remaining double slip switches that traverse the 36th St connection, which Amtrak trains use to reach the Harrisburg Line from the 30th St lower level. Off in the weeds at the right is the NS Harrisburg Line, which used to be the PRR West Philadelphia elevated, aka the hi-line. This used to be used by train comming off the middle tracks of the NEC and the old Belmont Yards and the K-ladder contunies on to cross the 2 track line on two more double slip switches. However, since 1992 NS severed all connections at ZOO and the now single track line emerges from the Reading connection duckunder and runs right up onto the hi-line w/o ZOO's supervision. Note to te left the 76R cleared for the R5's and the 80L set to STOP for trains comming off the 36th St connector. Also visable is the 80R set to APPROACH MEDIUM for the STYLES section of ZOO.
Ok, now we are on the #2 Berry track at ZOO. This was the primary freight access to the NEC back in PRR times. It is a little different having to sort of zig and zag around the NS Harrisburg Line. The #2 and #3 Berry tracks used to run straight onto the hi-line, but now they they consolitate at what used to be the old 93 double-slip and then just turn up the K-ladder. In the photo on the left, #3, track the 108R dwarf guards the access to the remnents of the Bellmont yard. The 37th St yard used to encompas the space where the giant pile of ties is now and then stretched back several miles to VALLEY then onto OVERBROOK (as the Bellmont Yard). Today there is only a couple of tracks to store MoW equipment. Finally, the ZOO substation is visable in in the middle background.
The ZOO substation looms large as we pass the 114R signal at APPROACH MEDIUM, for our upcomming divergence onto the NEC. We are curving around in front of ZOO tower. Note the extreme amount of rust on our #2 Berry track and the not so extreme amount of rust on the #3 Berry.
And here is the Queen of the NEC, ZOO tower, comming into view as we take the curving Berry track in front of her. ZOO was built in 1930 with a 227 lever US&S Model 14 electro-pneumatic machine. ZOO was once staffed by 5 full time positions (dispatcher, two train directors and two levermen) later reduced to three consisting of a leverman, a train director and The Goat. The Goat handled all movements on/off the NEC (levers 180-230). Recently, this teritory was spun off as MANUTA and GIRARD interlockings handled by CTEC-5 and The Goat was eliminated. I am unsure if ZOO controls everything east of 200L and 204L (including the Pittsburgh Subway) or everything east of 104L and 108L. I suspect the former.
I was unable to capture our exit from The Berry track as we happened to pass by an Amtrak P42 making a wye move on the NY-Pittsburg Subway. The NY-Pittsburg Subway is an underground tunnel that loops under the old yards from the NEC to New York to the Harrisburg Line. This was once used by many NY-Chicago trains that bypassed 30th St Station to save time. Today, the "Subway" is the only place in the Philadelphia Terminal where trains can be wyed or turned. Amtrak electric trains have cabs on each end, but the diesels do not and since Amtrak runs elephant style, the P42/P40 engines need to be turned around after comming in from the Harrisburg Line. Entire Keystone trains might also be turned in this manner. This P42 has just come off the NY-Pittsburg Subway from the STILES section of ZOO where it had run up the old VALLEY flyover. It will now run down the #3 berry to the 36th St connection and either go into Race St. engine ternimal or onto an outbound train.
I hope you enjoyed this little trip down the Berry, I hope to provide more interlocking tours in the future.
www.mtamaryland.com
www.vre.org/trainbrain/disrupt.shtml
for more info.
A perswon going into your profession cannot be excused for making a judgment based on inadequate data. In order to determine whether centralization helps or not, you have to compare the cause, cost and duration of outages before ad after the poject. You have not done so.
Is it okay for me (or any SubTalk user) to use pictures on this site to send in to this photo essay? (I will give credit to the photographer and site)
And of course, it'll give you an excuse to go take pictures of trains!
Mark
Compare this to the 1964 total when all the World's Fair cars were on hand and were called "Bluebirds." Then there were 40 R-33WF and 390 R-36WF.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The R-26 and R-28 were delivered with the then standard olive drab paint scheme and never became know as "Redbirds" until the rebuilding and repainting mentioned above.
The R-29 car group started arriving in 1962 and had the smartest paint scheme ever given a subway car. The exterior was a bright "Tartar" Red with yellow trim. Much brighter than todays marroon red. The interior had charcoal grey fibreglass seats and was painted two shades of a kind of blue that seemed to border on purple with a white ceiling. Because of this bright Red paint they quickly became known as "Redbirds." The R-29's were intended for operation on the IRT mainlines (#1 thru 6 and 9) and as such as five standard drop sash windows on each side of the car. I mention the windows because that isthe key way to tell a Redbird from a Bluebird.
The next two orders of cars were to be split between the IRT mainlines and the IRT Flushing Line (#7). The Flushing Line was to be the Gateway to the 1964-65 World's Fair that was to held at Flushing Meadows Park. Since most of the Flushing Line is elevated and the Fair would be quite a show it was decided to equipt the Flushing Line cars with picture windows and to paint then a light blue with a large white band running around the car at window height. Next to the Redbirds this was the nicest paintscheme around. (IMHO)
So the R-33 order was for 540 cars, 500 arranged as married pairs for operation on the IRT mainlines with standard windows and called Redbirds.
40 cars configured as double-ended single units for the Flushing Line with picture windows and called "Bluebirds." The single unit cars were necessary as Flushing Line train lengths would be increased to eleven cars for the World's Fair.
The R-36 order was for 424 cars, 390 arranged as married pairs for use on the Flushing Line with picture windows and called "Bluebirds."
34 cars were also arranged as married pairs for use on the IRT mainlines with standard windows and called "Redbirds."
Your correct in referring to the earlier BMT car being called "Bluebirds." There were six of these numbered 8000 thru 8005.
8000 was the last car built for the BMT Company while the next five were built for the NYC Board of Transportation. The first car was built in 1938 and the others in 1940. The were three-section articulated units with a PCC type of control. All of these were scapped in 1954 I believe. I have seen color pictures of them in later years when the paint had faded. I would love to see a color picture of them when they were new.
BTW the interior seats on the IRT Bluebirds were also blue.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I knew all that but thanks anyway and no, I never did doubt you on Redbirds.
The R-26 and R-28 were delivered with the then standard olive drab paint scheme and never became know as "Redbirds" until the rebuilding and repainting mentioned above.
The R-29 car group started arriving in 1962 and had the smartest paint scheme ever given a subway car. The exterior was a bright "Tartar" Red with yellow trim. Much brighter than todays marroon red. The interior had charcoal grey fibreglass seats and was painted two shades of a kind of blue that seemed to border on purple with a white ceiling. Because of this bright Red paint they quickly became known as "Redbirds." The R-29's were intended for operation on the IRT mainlines (#1 thru 6 and 9) and as such as five standard drop sash windows on each side of the car. I mention the windows because that isthe key way to tell a Redbird from a Bluebird.
The next two orders of cars were to be split between the IRT mainlines and the IRT Flushing Line (#7). The Flushing Line was to be the Gateway to the 1964-65 World's Fair that was to held at Flushing Meadows Park. Since most of the Flushing Line is elevated and the Fair would be quite a show it was decided to equipt the Flushing Line cars with picture windows and to paint then a light blue with a large white band running around the car at window height. Next to the Redbirds this was the nicest paintscheme around. (IMHO)
So the R-33 order was for 540 cars, 500 arranged as married pairs for operation on the IRT mainlines with standard windows and called Redbirds.
40 cars configured as double-ended single units for the Flushing Line with picture windows and called "Bluebirds." The single unit cars were necessary as Flushing Line train lengths would be increased to eleven cars for the World's Fair.
The R-36 order was for 424 cars, 390 arranged as married pairs for use on the Flushing Line with picture windows and called "Bluebirds."
34 cars were also arranged as married pairs for use on the IRT mainlines with standard windows and called "Redbirds."
Your correct in referring to the earlier BMT car being called "Bluebirds." There were six of these numbered 8000 thru 8005.
8000 was the last car built for the BMT Company while the next five were built for the NYC Board of Transportation. The first car was built in 1938 and the others in 1940. The were three-section articulated units with a PCC type of control. All of these were scapped in 1954 I believe. I have seen color pictures of them in later years when the paint had faded. I would love to see a color picture of them when they were new.
BTW the interior seats on the IRT Bluebirds were also blue.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33.
Thank you for your thoughtful post. Bye.
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbirdr33
The original stairway to the outside platform is sealed off at present. There is a temporary sttaircase at the forward end of the outer platform which is now the only access to the station. A temporary headhouse on the surface contains a token ? booth and the turnstiles.
The last of the part of the old Staten Island Ferry Terminal has been torn down. At one time the "Whitehall Street Ferry Terminal" had seven slips. The part most of us have known as the Staten Island Ferry Terminal was rebuilt in the early 1950's I believe, and at that time slip 4 was eliminated. The new terminal is half built and in us currently using slips 2 and 3.
The older part of the terminal which is still in the original condition houses slips 5,6 and 7. Staten Island boats always could and did us slip 5 when conditions warranted. Slip 6 was normally unused but was reactivated for a short time during the fire several years ago. I rode one of the Kennedy Class boats into it and it was a tight fit. Slip 7 continues to be used by the Governor's Island boats which now run rather on demand then a regular schedule. The boat in service todays was the Lt Samuel S Coursen. She no longer flies the Coast Guard ensign so her ownership must have been transfered to whatever agency is now running Governor's Island.
Incidently all Staten Island boats were flying the city and national flags at half staff today.
Larry, RedbirdR33
many trainfans will miss the Redbirds, so catch them NOW where you have a chance.
or do you mean Ocatober 2004-the centennial of the NY Subway?
When I arrived at Saint George today I was surprised to see a fellow Bronxite over at the Ferry Maintenance Base. It was the eighth and least known ferryboat in the New York City's Fleet.
The Department of Transportation operates two ferry lines, the great Staten Island Ferry with its seven boats and the little known Hart Island Ferry with its single boat, the "Micheal Cosgrove."
The Cosgrove is small even by the standard of the Staten Island night boats "Alice Austin" and "John A Noble." She displaces 139 tons, is 60 feet long and can hold 250 passengers and eight automobiles. Her prosaic job is to carry the indigent dead from City Island to Hart Island where Potter's Filed is located. The Hart Island Ferry is the last of the many so-called institutional ferries that ran in the East River. Long after the Staten Island ferries had been repainted blue and orange the Cosgrove ratained the dull red color scheme. No more. She has a fresh coat of paint in a bright blue and orange. So after saying hello to an old friend I picked up a copy of the new SIR Timetable.
It is colored blue and white and is effective with the 2003 baseball season. Weekday trains are on one side and weekend trains on the other. Weekdays trains are numbered 1 through 130 with one additional train numbered 400 (1231AM SG to TOT). Weekend trains are numbered 900 through 979. Even numbered trains run "railroad east" from Saint George south while odd numbered trains run "railroad west" to Saint George. When there is a ballgame a regular train runs from Tottenville to the Ballpark making all stops except St George. It is simply labeled "Ballpark" in the timetable. For weekdays games it leaves Tottenville at 530PM, on weekends it leaves at 322PM and 522PM depending on game time.
There also is a Shuttle service leaving from St George to the Ballpark from the former North Shore tracks. These leave at 628PM and 648PM on weekdays and Saturdays and at 452PM and 502PM on Sundays.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I did also go up to City Island to try and locate the "Michael Cosgrove" -- saw it docked but was not allowed to get oo close to it.
That's what was so unusual about seeing her at St.George. I got several good pictures from the bus ramp. At City Island the only good pictures that you can get are from the water.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
When out railfanning Subtalkers need a covert way of recognizing other subtalkers and signaling to other subtalkers that they are a railfan. The current system of confronting other wierdos you see wandering around subway platforms is awkward at best and can result in a painful stabbing at worst. We need something that is obvious, yet not remarkable that Subtalkers can display and look out for to help facilitate Subtalkers meeting in real life.
Two suggestions I have include 1) a big black S either displayed on the back of the hand, arm or on some article of clothing and 2) some sort of ribbon that can be pinned to clothing or tied around a wrist or bag/backpack.
Ozzy Zamora
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
: ) Elias
Good thing I planted a ":)" at the end then. :)
Does a HAT meet with your approval?
Yes, of course you gotta buy them, maybe Dave can even make a busk or two off of them..
: ) Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But they'd be a bargain compared to some of the merchandise being sold at the Springsteen concert I saw a week ago!
--Mark
Lady SubTalkers can wear one of the small ones if they like :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Otherwise use this other tried and true method: yell at the top of your lungs: 'Hey you! Aren't you a f%&@#ing SubTalker?!'
Works like a charm
Might get one thrown in jail.....
How about the toilet...
It's been done
I don't know; you'd have to ask them ;)
Railfan long and take pictures.
Either that or make an impression of the compressor of the R16 like Sgt. Jeff proposed. That'll attract a railfan faster than a can of Friskies can attract a kitty.
Now if you can do a Lo-V motor then you'll get my attention.
1) Stand next to them and start humming along?
2) Get the PHUCK away as far as you can so they won't stab you?
Hmmm ... sounds like this approach allows the subtalker to stand out a little better without getting missed in a crowd. Sounds like a weiner to me. :)
(Firesign Theater, "Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers")
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As posted earlier, making the compressor sound of an R16 sounds cool, but how about something easier, the puff of a WF R36 when all the doors closed, or the sound of dumping the brakes-my favorite.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
I also have my Subway Series shirt with R-7A 1575 on it.
(Denverites who are now scratching their head in befuddlement can email me for an explanation.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not to mention strange looks from everyone else.
AEM7
We need hand gestures, like gang members have.
I've ran a few field trips in my day and also been on a few more and never had a problem meeting up with subtalkers as long as the meting place was well defined and people showed up on time (Okay forget that one Staten Island Trip is was coming down like the flood I already apoligized for that one three times).
You don't need some child like hand sign or have me go out and spend more money on a tee shirt or hat that doesn't fit me.
You now have my three cents, thanks.
Gee, Lou, that's easy for you to say. You stand out in a crowd anyway. And have you noticed that when you ask "Hey, Goombah, you a subtawka?" the usual answer is "I am if you want me to be one, sir." :-)
Tom
I've always wondered what your ideas where worth: $.03 more than I expected.
Then I guess that would make it the squared value of YOUR total contributions to this board, since the square of a negative number is positive.
Omar the Tentmaker doesn't charge that much for alterations... (as the Mouse ducks and runs for cover...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy :O
Ozzy Zamora AKA The Kiman
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
Why covert? Just set up an exact place to meet. When I met Greenberger a few months ago, he said he'd be at the booth. I walked out, saw some nutcase ( :) ) standing by the booth and asked him if he was David. Simple. Why covert? You in MI-6 or something?
I've met for Peggy's tours at Mc Donalds in Penn Station, and knew no one the first time, but I saw a bunch of people waiting at McDonalds in Penn Station. What else would they be doing there at that time? I've met Brian and David G at the top of the escalators at Broadway Junction. Of course that time I already knew what David looked like, but even if I didn't, how hard would that be if you agree on a specific location like that? I've met other non SubTalk people at various token booths, or tops of stairways, etc, and it's always worked out, as long as it's a specific location agreed upon.
Of course if you are trying to meet someone not a railfan, you can't say "I'll meet you in Union Square, in the IRT mezzanine at the plaques from the abandoned platform" to someone who has no idea about subway history. They'd reply, "IRT what?"
And to think we were in the city the two previous days and rode exclusively on the Southern Division - and I didn't see any Triplexes!!
I know one of the preserved Triplexes made a surprise revenue run on the Culver Shuttle in 1974, but in my book that doesn't count.
I know one of the preserved Triplexes made a surprise revenue run on the Culver Shuttle in 1974, but in my book that doesn't
Steve: I know that I made this comment before but when the Triplexes died they died in a hurry. It seemed that one day they were there and the next day they were gone.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
BTW, the Triplexes made their last stand on the West End.
Given the design (I don't have drawings, so I'm GUESSING) of the articulated trucks, I'm GUESSING that they're actually mounted to the "vestibule" assembly and therefore, getting to the trucks to service them must have been a labor intensive NIGHTMARE. Probably some serious disassembly and jacking was required to get the trucks out from under the cars for servicing.
Given the shortages at the time of both people and parts, a simple time/labor reality existed that it was just too much work and time spent to do the maintenance on them compared to other cars in the fleet. SO much so that there was a desire to get them out of the way in favor of being able to get more cars in and out in those times.
As I said, hopefully someone who maintains the few which remain might hopefully shed some light on this - I suspect THIS is the reason why they got ditched as soon as there was ANYTHING else to replace them.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I heard from one source that the Triplexes actually ran on the West End Local in the end. Supposedly they wanted to get them off the bridge due to their tremendous weight.
I must give that bridge credit, and credit as well to the dual contracts els that had to bear up to those beasts.
#3 West End Jeff
You can always ask someone where they are.
For example I live in the N.E. Bronx
Aaaaaaahhhhh! You should be looking for posts such as this one!!!!
I'll bet they do wear out, but probably not as soon as brakeshoes.
Anyone I recall with expertise in car equipment who got personally attacked on this board sure gave attacks with as much vigor and childishness as they received them.
It's not driving someone away if they can't accept the level of personal attack that they themselves produce. Most people here never are on the receiving end of a personal attack because they don't do it themselves.
Mind ya, I'm not a flamer either, but most folks can only take so much of it, even on the sidelines.
>> Let's not forget that a union member likely screwed up with the contact shoe that caused the fire. This is probably the union trying to deflect blame.<<
'
'
'
* actually from Barto Takes The Subway by Barbara Brenner, photographs by Sy Katzoff, 1961
8 mm?
9306?
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
http://half.ebay.com/
I have not seen that. Is Dave dropping you some kind of hint? :-)
Ain't happened since. :-\
I don't know, I don't run it.
It's a shame. It would have been fun to see him at the scene of the York Street incident saying that there had been no fire or derailment. Or to hear him triple guarantee that the MTA's books are above reproach. Oh well, I think Bush is going to need a good spin doctor in the days ahead.
Robert
With the foamer glass gone, what will there be worth seeing? Not even the 8th Avenue interlock. I guess it's time for Snediker to get some sunshine then. Those who want a full frontal view will just have to take the open competitive. :(
Robert
Here's a link to the MTA's Surplus site for the Redbirds. There's a phone number at the end of that page and you can check on the current situation.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales_new1.htm
I'm sure some of the other people here will let you know if there are any other sources of Redbird rollsigns.
So how is the project going? Is construction visible around town?
Mark
Welcome aboard.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not these...
Adam
Adam
He was out there from 57th - 7th, pass the turn, to 63rd - Lexington... where he climbed over the ropes coupling the cars.
I wonder how he got locked out. If a door's unlocked from the inside, it's also unlocked from the outside.
Don't ask me how I know all this.
Unless there was a REALLY GOOD reason to go between cars (like a fire or assault) I don't have much sympathy for this moron.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And BTW, you was never mister perfect...Mr. Tight Shorts...
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
There's GOT to be more to that story!
I'll let u cook up the spoilers and the surprise!
Peace,
ANDEE
Or over the 100% fare hike a few years earlier?
Peace,
ANDEE
There must have been a lot of confusion among the police when they shut the subway and area down. The gunman had been shot several times in the City Council Chamber and was removed by ambulance. Who were they looking for??
I wanted to do 10 hours of it yesterday to prepare for my own "total system" ride that I plan on doing once the MannyB is fully reopened. I'd like to break the 26 hour world record, but even if that's not possible, I'd want to set a 2004 record.
The crew riding out there now is really dedicated, and please keep showing your support. They are entering what is probably mentally the toughest part of the trip, the morning after. They are tired and irritable, and now they have to add on being hot and crowded. What a group.
If you want an endurance test on rails, take Amtrak from NY to LA. I did for 3½ days. That completely obliterated any thoughts in my mind of doing something like that again.
Even though I did the Amtrak marathon, I would need some severe sedatives to ride the subways for 26 hours. In fact, I do not believe that the drug that I would need has been invented yet.
Sorta like the last election? (sorry, couldn't resist)
Seriously though - with so many of the southern stations just not there, any record set isn't comparable to the priors to begin with. Leave it to the NY Times to come up with such an idiotic idea THIS year ...
This year does work, though, because I think their point is the ride is still a bargain, even at the much-derided fare of two dollars.
Numerically we DID hit them all 468.
It's not the rubber wheels, after all, the subways in Montreal and several French cities have rubber wheels, but a steering wheel?? No one wants to trust their life to a vehicle that can go anywhere without rails to guide it. :-)
Tom
They weren't going for any record specifically. It might end up however, that they set the record for the system as it currently exists today, as long as no one else challenges it. You would only have until early next year to try to beat what these guys are finishing today.
There will always be minor differences in the system whenever anyone tries to take a grand tour so no record will be directly comparable to any other (unless two teams using different routes start at the same time). This trip, which requires stopping at all stations, is different from previous tours which only required passing through every station, so it is not directly comparable with any record set under the previous rules.
One could even question whether Northbound and Southbound side platform stations, with no access between them without leaving the system are one station or two separate stations when the requirement is to stop at all stations.
Tom
Next year, this trip will have to be done all over again, because the Manny B 4 track service plan will take effect, Stillwell will reopen and (???) may be we'll see express service reintroduced courtesy of Bergen tower (or maybe that's 2005).
How about extending this game and including a trip on all heavy rail (meaning visiting all stations on NYCTA and PATH, with only one intersystem transfer allowed)? I say somebody should do it in summer of 04, when the Manny B and Stillwell reopen and PATH is fully operational to 33rd St and WTC.
Don't worry Choo Choo, they have the support of practically every Suhbtalker. This shows that riding the entire NYC subway system is more challenging than one would expect it to be.
SIRR to St. George
SIF to South Ferry
1/9 to 242nd St.
9 to 207th
Walk to 207th on the A
A to 145th
D to 205th
D to Bedford Park
walk to 4
4 to end and then to 149th
2 to 96th
3 to 148th
Walk to 145th
D to 47th-50th
Q to 21st
Walk to Queensboro Plaza
N to Astoria
N to Lex Av.
R to Roosevelt Ave
7 to Flushing
7 to 45 Rd
Walk to Court Sq
Transfer to 23rd F
F to 179
F to union Tpk
E to Jaimaca Cntr.
J to Myrtle Ave
M to end
M to Broad St.
walk to Rector
R to 95th
R to 59th
N to Coney
B to 36th
anything to De Kalb
D to Coney
F to any G connection
G to Court Sq
transfer to E
E to 42nd
transfer to 7
7 to Queensboro Plaza
N to Times Square
transfer to 1/2/3/9
1/2/3/9 to 59th
E to World Trade Center
walk to Chambers St.
2/3 to Atlantic
transfer to 4/5
4/5 to 6
6 to Pellham Bat
Bx12 to Pellam Pky.
5 to Dyre
5 to E180th
2 to 241st.
2 to 149th
4/5 to GCT
Shuttle to Times and back
4/5/6 to 51st.
F to Jay St.
C to Franklin Ave.
Shuttle to Prospect Park
D/Q to W.4th
A/C to Jay St.
Walk to Lawerance St.
R/N to Times Square
Transfer to A/C/E
A/C/E to 14th
L to 3 walk?
3 to end
3 to Franklin Ave.
2 to Flatbush
2 to Hoyt
Walk to Jay St.
A to Lefferts
A to Rockaway Blvd.
A to Far Rockaway
A to Broad Channel
Shuttle to Rockaway Park
D to B50
walk to 86
N to 59
And BTW there is no free transfer at Lefferts Blvd to the Q10.
Robert
Then you apparently never met some of my ex-girlfriends...
Thousands of people die every day in auto accidents and yet few question "the overall safety of entering this vehicle" when it comes to cars. If you want to avoid all things that could possibly kill you, you're out of luck.
I wonder if the motorman would be alive if the cement blocks on the test train were secured?
From what I've read, it wasn't the impact with the wall that was fatal, but rather being crushed by the sliding blocks.
That is what the Port Authority's report on the accident says. I don't believe that the NTSB's report has been issued yet, but there doesn't seem to be much debate over whether the cause of death was anything but being crushed by the concrete blocks.
In addition to the study of the accident, the report gives good background on the entire AirTrain system and I recommend reading it to all who post here.
See:
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/airtrain_rep.pdf
CG
Perhaps it's more realistic to look at the increase including the subway fare. The effective subway fare is either $1.67 or $2.00, depending on the MetroCard used. A trip to the airport via Howard Beach currently costs $1.67 or $2.00 and will soon cost $5.83 or $7.00. That's a 250% increase.
The E train and the J?, I've seen a man board the E from Laguardia, sit across from his luggage and scare an old lady into thinking the "abandoned" suitcases were a terrorist plot>
Perhaps it's more realistic to look at the increase including the subway fare. The effective subway fare is either $1.67 or $2.00, depending on the MetroCard used. A trip to the airport via Howard Beach currently costs $1.67 or $2.00 and will soon cost $5.83 or $7.00. That's a 250% increase.
* = actually, most airport and airline employees are probably so thankful that they still have jobs, period, that they won't worry too much about the Airtrain fare.
Which decade was this? PATH subsidies come from car tolls.
Correct, for the most part. But the airports do run at a profit (or did, until air travel fell off after 9/11), and some of that money made its way to PATH.
In the 1989 to 1994 downturn, the Port Authority, like the MTA, faced deficits, and "cross-harbor transportation," the combination of tolls, PATH, and the bus terminal, fell into the red. In fact the Holland Tunnel, in need of extensive work, was losing money. To make up the difference, the MTA raised fares and tolls, and cut service, but the Port Authority did not. For many, many years the PATH fare was $1.00 vs. $1.50 for the subway, and the PA tolls were $4.00 vs. $7.00 in New York.
To make up the difference, the Port Authority cut back the Airtrain, which was originally proposed to go LaGuardia and onto Manhattan, and postponed its construction, transferring profits from LaGuardia and JFK to New Jersey. There was a little ledgerdemain -- the passenger facility charge, which was supposed to be used for Airtrain, was used for other things at the airport, and airport "profits" which would have been used for other things were transferred to PATH.
Finally, after years of pressure, the Port Authority raised fares and tolls, and cross-harbor transportation went back in the black. Don't know if it's there now. I do know that Port Authority fares and tolls are once again far below New York levels, as a result of another round of MTA increases in another recession.
So again, the question is why should the Airtrain cost more than the PATH when airport profits were used to subsidize the PATH for years?
One has to question how serious the PA was with that original proposal. The plan was to use part of the Queensboro Bridge to enter Manhattan. Anybody with a passing knowledge knows that the Queensboro cannot take any more load. That proposal was a non-starter before the ink was dry.
The original proposal included a new supported trackway to a 59th Street terminal. The price tag included needed support structures for the train.
As it is, LaGuardia passengers pay the PFC, but get no benefits. On my recent return from Chicago I took the El in Chicago but a cab in NYC. My wife tried taking the subway to the M60 to LaGuardia on the way to Chicago. She barely made her plane, and arrived sick to her stomach from the stress.
No, that's an infinite increase. Try it on your calculator.
Looks like it's Lefferts for me, from now on.
I guess you'll have to fly out of Newark now?
Then you've got no real reason to go to JFK and hence no reason to complain about the Airtrain fare.
Unless, of course, you follow my suggestion of a few days ago and head out to JFK when a flight from an Asian city is arriving and the place is crawling with mystical chix. But then you'd probably figure the five bucks is money well spent. Now, if Lady Luck were really smiling down on you, and you ended up scoring with a mystical chik, you probably wouldn't have minded if you spent five hundred bucks on Airtrain! (You'd probably wonder what all the fuss had been about, but that's a different matter).
Terminals 1, 6, 7, 8 and 9 all allow non-passengers in the areas before the security checkpoints. I haven't been in the other three active terminals (5 is currently unused), but I can't imagine that they'd be any different. Beyond security is for ticketed passengers only, as with any airport in the United States - in fact, that was the policy at terminals 8 and 9 even before the post-9/11 security changes.
By the way, my wife and I were in Terminal 1 for over an hour and a half last Monday, waiting for my stepdaughter to return from a flight to LHR, and I noticed people taking pictures. No one minded.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last time I used JFK was on a domestic flight last March from Terminal 3: Same story.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Were only ticketed passengers allowed in, or were the metal detectors inside the entrances just for convenience?
Just for convenience. Although my last visit there was as a ticketed passenger, I had been there a couple of months before to see my older daughter and my grandchildren off on their flight home to the west coast and I went through with them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CG
You could theoretically take the Q10 into the airport, railfan the entire AirTrain system 30 times and then take the Q10 back out.
I'm starting to wonder whether or not there will be a change in the bus services at JFK. With the AirTrain running every 2 minutes and a loop time of 8 minutes, it might make sense to have one central pickup/dropoff and let everyone transfer onto AirTrain.
CG
I'm waiting for the line to open up for the first railfan trip!
Boeing aircraft of all types, including 707s still in passenger and freight service
McDonnell Douglas jets, including DC-8s in freight service
Airbuses
French Caravelles (look like DC-9s)
Lockheed Tristars
Concordes (no more after October)
Tupolev TU-154, Ilyushin 76s,IL-96 widebodies
At some point you could have been lucky to see a Convair 880 jetliner, but I don't think any are flying anymore.
And every airline livery/nationality you can imagine.
What lines use the Soviet aircraft? Aeroflot uses 767s now.
But the older jets were still in use by eastern European lines, like Malev, Balkan-Bulgarian, LOT (Poland) and so on. Of course, with time, those jets will disappear, or be relegated to cargo service or service inside Russia.
They obviously still use them on other routes, but I thought that the trans-Atlantic fleet was now all 767.
I don't believe any passenger 707's, DC-8's, or Caravelle's have operated into JFK for several years, maybe over a decade. The few aircraft of that type still in passenger service are with somewhat sketchy Third World carriers that don't fly to the United States (and wouldn't meet U.S. safety and noise standards). TACV Cape Verde airlines was operating Tristars once a week into JFK until very recently, but service seems to have been suspended.
You're definitely right about exotic carriers at JFK. Just to a name a few, you have Biman Bangladesh, Ghana Airways, Uzbekistan Airlines, and Royal Air Maroc.
Very true. Freight carriers, now. Airborne still has DC-8's configured as freighters. I don't know if they've been re-engined with high-bypass turbofans.
:0)
And your statement is false at JFK after November, and false at Newark.
It was a poke at Qtraindash7's situation, not really a statement about AirTrain in particular.
Alas, the site's not in use.
:0)
I could just see the classified ad:
"Motivated individual wanted for job. Great hours, competitive pay, free use of company toilet. Fax your resume to..."
I'de go that route and get one ticket a month than pay in $5/day installments.lol (Its like those damn HOV lanes)
Please don't tell us you urinate there also. :-)
Tom
What about a charge of indecent exposure?
Well, if you gotta go, I would use whatever I could. I have used some of the bad subway ones (Rockaway Parkway comes to mind, and almost rivaled Stillwell the last time I used it). It would sure beat "using a column" at the end of a platform, which is totally gross.
To say I wouldn't "dare" using one would be wrong. Think of it this way, it's easy for a guy to use a filthy subway bathroom for obvious reasons, just hold your breath, run in, run out. It's gross, but no big deal. I do however feel sorry for woman having to go on the subway (or any public restroom for that matter). Then I could understand THEM saying they wouldn't dare use one, as I do sympathize with what they would have to go through.
Just to clarify that, I mean using a filthy subway bathroom, not a column on a platform. I reread that in my post, and see how people could confuse what I meant.
Only one thing left for you to do: Work for money.
You have some very strange logic sometimes Qtrain.
CG
You could have, on your living room floor, with a few hundred dollars worth of components.
In real life what you ask for is pretty near impossible now, very difficult even when East Side Access is complete. If you did a little reading in your spare time you'd know that.
Besides, once the train gets to ReGo Park, where will it go? Filled to capacity Penn Station? And who would bear the cost of building on-airport guideways strong enough to support FRA compliant equipment?
"A few hours a day" relegated operational possibilities to between 10AM-2PM, and maybe after 8PM to 5AM, and that's being generous.
And that was only one objection - never mind NIMBY of the same type you get in Astoria, or the fact that the ROW really does go much too close to people's homes to make reopening the line realistic unless you sink it into a trough and maybe stack the tracks (the way the L is on a short stretch of its route), and of course the cost of rebuilding the decrepit ROW and replacing bridges etc. Addressing real homeowner concerns, dealing with encroachment (lawyers' time) and overcoming NIMBY will be a bear.
As progress with ESA moves forward (the tunnels will be complete by 2005; but MTA will still need tracks, power, signalling and station) a new Rockaway line becomes operationally feasible again. The question is whether you want to spend the money to accomplish it.
A decrease in fare by 6/7
This discussion is about the Howard beach leg of AirTrain. It's not clear how many Howard Beach Airtrain riders will be displaced cab riders. I think most current cab riders who use Airtrain will go via Jamaica.
OK, it's slightly amusing, a little...
:0)
A decrease in fare by 6/7
For an individual traveler, the reduction from cab to subway + Airtrain is 4/5, not 6/7. For a family of four, it's only 1/5.
Count on seeing discount packages in conjuction with hotels and tour opertators introduced soon. It only makes sense
Robert
They could avoid the up & over by taking a Lefferts train in the first place.
If they are carrying luggage or are in a hurry, they'll probably prefer taking the airtrain. At least airtrain will go to their terimal.
If they're that concerned about carrying luggage or being in a hurry, they will have taken a cab.
And BTW there is no free transfer at Lefferts Blvd to the Q10.
Only if you used a Single Ride Metrocard.
How many times have you seen people who think they are on an A train going to Lefferts and they're lost st Old Aqueduct? People know the subway goes toward the airport. They'll probably be told that wherever they are. They'll learn after they get off at Howard Beach that the shuttle bus doesn't run no more and the airtrain runs now. If they want to get back on and go to Lefferts Blvd to catch the Q10 they could. But someone who has luggage or a backback will think twice before they get back on the train.
I said there is no free transfer only if you use a Single Ride Metrocard. I did forget the possibility that one has already transferred from a bus to a subway, or has been on the system for more than two hours.
How many times have you seen people who think they are on an A train going to Lefferts and they're lost st Old Aqueduct?
Far less frequently than I've seen travelers who think they're going to Howard Beach on a Lefferts train.
If someone is trying to get to the airport, they'll look at a map and know to take a Rockaway train to Howard Beach. If someone is specifically looking to take the Q10 to the airport, they'll know to take a Lefferts train. Most out-of-towners will do what the map says and go to Howard Beach - another $5/person added to a trip to New York is nothing - or just take a cab. Locals will know the "secrets."
People would just avoid the Howard Beach station and use their MetroCard transfer to hop on the Q10. If you've got a Single Ride MC or your transfer is already spent, there's no big deal since the Q10's only a buck off-peak.
That of course is for the majority of riders. The small minority of riders which come from The Rockaways however are pretty much stuck with the AirTrain unless they don't mind the huge inconvenience which will result in going to LEF.
They wouldn't catch the Q10 at Howard Beach. They'd catch it at Lefferts, or perhaps at Union Turnpike. Or they'd catch the B15 at New Lots.
And BTW there is no free transfer at Lefferts Blvd to the Q10.
Yes there is. MetroCards have offered free intermodal transfers for years now.
Outside of a sushi place where we can watch them making it, How do we know if sushi is a day old or older?
It isn't going to go up to $5.
Animal Planet probably will be re-running a recent show they had about intestinal parasites. You might find it quite enlightening.
...on the subway, that means pickpockets and turnstile swipers.
You can get a beautiful fresh sushi array, enough for four, from Costco for $13.
Again, my correction was to your 9:59 post, in which you said that there was no free transfer from the subway to the Q10 -- never, at all, for anyone. That's incorrect. Nobody even mentioned the SingleRide card until 13 minutes later.
:0)
For years, NYCT has been advertising free subway-bus transfers with MetroCard -- and not just to the B42.
Those may be offered if enough regulars (airport employees) demand them.
CG
Questions like that should be answered BEFORE the project begins and were. From the July 1996 Executive Summary: "Passengers boarding at Howard Beach and Jamaica pay a $5.00 fare. Employees pa $2.00 per ride."
The time to have complained was before the PA requested and got the City's permission to build it.
Not being a New Yorker, I didn't really know what the AirTrain was - I just figured it was a train to JFK, but didn't really care about the particulars. Now with you all talking about $5 fares and such I looked it up.
I have to agree, $5 sounds like a rip-off.
Here in Chicago, you can take the Blue Line from the Loop to O'Hare for $1.50, which drops you right at Terminal 2. If you need to go to another terminal or to remote parking, you can take the free airport people-mover elevated train. The Blue Line trip takes about 40 minutes.
You can also take the Orange Line to Midway for $1.50, although getting from the Orange Line terminal to the airport terminal is an annoyingly long walk (over 1/4 mile) with luggage. The Orange Line trip takes about 30 minutes.
In Oslo, on the other hand, they have a new high-speed rail system from the city center (several stops) to the Airport that takes about 20 minutes and costs about $20 one way (depending on the exchange rate). They run every 10 minutes and drop you right next to the main terminal, are fast, and are TGV-style trains, not subway style.
If I remember correctly, I think the RER trains in Paris cost about $6 to take from Charles DeGaule to central Paris, a trip that takes about 45 minutes I think, depending on where in Paris you're going. Those trains are like big, cushy subway cars.
Is there also subway or train service to Orly and Roissy airports (or is that the same field, renamed? Air France' Concorde used to fly to Roissy).
Depending on how much luggage I have and the time of day, I might take the L to the A to HB, or get to Penn and take the LIRR to Jamaica, or take a taxi. The deicsion will be based on convenience and the possibility of saving the $35 cab fare, not on the $4.17.
I would be MUCH MORE likely to go via HB if NYCT decides to increase A train frequency there from 4 tph to 8 tph. That's far more important to me than the $4.17.
The 62a is a close 2nd.
Jimmy
Engine???? And I always thought they were electric!!! :)
-Most nostalgic value for me - R16.
-Least liked car: R68
til next time
Railfan
A division
1.R33WF the fans you have to be a real railfan to withstand the heat
2.R36WF
3.R62A with a railfan window
4.R142A
5.R142
6.R62/A without railfan window
B division
1.R40
2.R32
3.R40M/R42
4.R68/A
5.R46
6.R143
7.R44
Passenger
A division
1.R62
2.R62A
3.R142A
4.R142
5.R36WF
6.R33WF
B division
1.R46
2.R44
3.R68/A
4.R143
5.R32
6.R38
7.R42
8.R40/R40M
They just suck...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IRT: R142. Dogs. Who says high tech is better? I'll never understand why they use computers on Subway cars! KISS - keep it simple, stupid. (I have the same philosophy in my own industry. The day I need a computer to tell me what's wrong with a radio transmitter, it's time to retire).
I like that proverb. The last word in it is the same as the person who uses it as his philosophy.
If we were stupid and kept it simple, the industrial revolution would never have occured.
As an engineer for the past thirty-five years, practice and experience has born out the truth of the philosophy. That, of course, is not to say, that certain devices cannot benefit from microprocessors. 90% of everything in my industry is now microprocessor controlled, or digital in nature. I just don't see the need for it in something as electrically simple as a subway. Or in my case, the control and monitor circuitry of a radio transmitter - if I had a dollar for everytime a microprocessor errantly shut down one of my transmitters when nothing was wrong, I'd be a rich man.
I thought AC power was a good idea -- less parts. Modules for replacement cut maintenance costs. Regen braking will save electricity. The PA is better, though I don't like the automated anouncements.
About the only stupid thing in the R142, in my view, is the maps with the little lights. Marginal cost exceeds marginal benefit. The only benefit vs. a strip map is to those who can read, but not understand, English and thus could not know where they were by the anouncement.
You want form over function? How about the R-40 slants, many people's favorites, my choice for the loser car.
Why do you think that subways are supposed to be simple, technology wise? I'm sure you are used to just NYCT, the most ancient, outdated subway in the world. If you check out other subways around the world, you'll see that they are all modern, even in third world countries. NYCT''s level of technology isn't even good enough for a place like Tehran, Iran. NYCT cannot even know the exact location of its trains, how unacceptable is that? If the 100 year old signal system is good enough, why doesn’t any other subway use it? Computers are needed for stuff like that. If NYCT replaced their whole control system with a modern one, the efficiency of the system would increase like crazy. NYCT is overcrowded with only 5 million passengers per mile, yet dozens of other subways worldwide handle upwards to 30 million passengers per route mile. They don’t do that by using NYCT’s control system. The 7 should be able to handle over double what it does today.
Computers no doubt have their purpose, it’s just that NYCT has yet to discover that.
I’ll give this to you: If an advancement is made by something more complex, it’s a good thing, but if an advancement is made by something that is less complex, then that is pure genius. :-)
Technology is fine. Technology for the sake of technology is not, especially if it's not designed or maintained properly.
It's the most prominent feature because you don't go down and look at the innards of the train, the automated announcements are the only thing you and I (and everyone else) sees.
Automated announcements and signs are a good thing, it's just that unfortunately the TA wasn't thinking with their whole ass when they designed the system.
Besides, in-cab signaling means that fewer track signals are needed, so that's a simplification of signaling right there. And the way the lighted route maps are done on the NYCT is dumb. Wheel rotations don't work because it still relies on an assumed order and that order can change anytime. Wheels also wear down, so the diameter changes, which will cause more rotations, so the announcements will be way ahead of what they should be. A real working route map would get a signal from the CBTC system, letting it know exactly where the train is at. The map then takes that and displays the right station/announcement when the train passes a point where an announcement is required. It's a lot simpler than wheel rotations that require moving parts. MARTA has been doing this for years and years, it's not anything new.
But it is not electrically simple. A subway train is one of the most complicated machines. There are maintenance intensive cams, valves and switches that could be replaced with more reliable solid-state technology and problems can more easily be diagnosed with a computer than without one. Why do you think every auto repair shop has a computer that plugs into a port on one's car in order to troubleshoot problems? This is private industry and the system had to be implemented on many levels. Nobody would have bothered if it didn't make sense.
So what? The general public is not buying these cars.
Are you fully vested in your pension? With intellectual complaxency like that, it would be in your best interest to check.
It is not so much intellectual complacency as it is having confidence in one's ability as an engineer. Any good engineer has the ability to trouble shoot without the necessity of a computer leading the way.
In all honesty, however, one of the problems we have in my industry with up and coming young engineers is that their trouble shooting skills are woefully lacking -- especially in the realm of RF. A radio transmitter does not need a computer to tell an engineer what's wrong with it - if the engineer understands the principles involved in its design. It's like anything else technical. When you come upon a new piece of equipment with which you are unfamiliar, the first thing you do is read the manual. You learn about the gear. You spend time with it getting to know it. If you do this, it doesn't take a computer to show you where the problem is since you understand how it works.
All computers are there only to reduce the workload of the user. And that is precisely what all the computers on any train does. Will things break down? Yes, but I doubt that the first subway cars in the 1800s were trouble-free, too.
Jimmy
The World's Fair Low V's had destination roll signs.
You can't blame a series of cars for a lack of acceleration when the other cars in the fleet have been given the same acceleration rate of 2.5 mps. This is an issue with the MTA and it's operation of NYCTA. What makes Toronto's service achieve such high aceleration rates? What is their acceleration rate?
During the 70s and 80s, didn't the 44s/46s have the best acceleration rate in the system? I thought they were the only cars to have 150 hp traction motors until the GOH program began in the late-80s. Were the acceleration rates on the trains higher pre-GOH or post-GOH?
in the B Division, not a big fan of R40 slants
in the Railroads, im not a big fan of our ACMU 1100s in MNR. they are Redbird WANNABE's and they need to retire QUICK!
NJ Transit, i love the ALP44s, the ALP46s are disgusting. i have had a cab ride in both. them Comet Vs are garbage from a engineer standpoint as well
American trak (Amtrak) nothing really wrong with their equipment
LIRR and MNR, STOP MIXIN M1 AND M3. thats why they have problems as is. MNR has less problems cause we RARELY mix.
Another reason I dislike the R142's ;-). Those automated announcements is a pain in the ass and gets real annoying after a while.
OTOH, I hate the announcements on the 2! When will they get that line a new voice? She's REALLY LOUD, and annoying as hell!! If only the 5 train voice could do the 2 train, *sigh*..:(
R44(take em out,they need to be reefed,the R46 are way better)
R62A(they would look better with black flooring,they look bad now)
R142(i reather keep the R142A then thses cars,kawasaki makes better cars then bombarder)
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
til next time
"i,ve ridden the R142 a few times while going to central park on the weekends.and on the run between 59th st and 86th st on the 4&5.the train was real stable.and shake,none of that.now the R142A,they shaky, real shaky."
EXACTLY!! You ain't lying about the R142A
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
Not According to what you said here:
"in terms of stabillty and suspension that would have to go
to the R142,the R143 is stable too.that,s why i like kawasaki,they make good cars.i hope the R160 will be as good as the R143"
Read Closly to what you said.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
"in terms of stabillty and suspension that would have to go
to the R142,the R143 is stable too.that,s why i like kawasaki,they make good cars.i hope the R160 will be as good as the R143"
when i wrote that,i ment that the R143 is stable too.just like the R142.i didn,t say that kawasaki made both R142 and R143.and when i said "that,s why i like kawasaki"i was referring to the R143,not the R142.
"what,you don,t belive me? "
What do I have to believe you about? It's your opinion.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
They are certainly long enough (115 x 50' cars)
And they move fast enough (45-55 mph!) : )
But the accomodations are FILTHY!
I used to say the R44 and R46 were the worst, but I'm slowly making my peace with them, or at least the R46. In terms of the look, they're similar. In terms of the ride, they're day and night. The R46 is quite smooth. The R44 is not much better than the redbirds. The day the last redbird retires is the day the R44 finally takes its place at the bottom of the pile.
:-) Andrew
Here's an interesting article about a reward for information leading to the conviction of grafitti artists in Nottingham England.
£1,000 Reward
The culprit is probably a desecndent of Robin Hood.
I think security patrols over there should be increased.
The writer of the article also seems ill informed about graffiti culture.
AEM7
I just updated the 3rd Avenue El pages with a lot of new photos. I'd been sitting on these a while and finally got around to getting them up. Ed Davis Sr. (Some subtalkers know him as bigedirtmanl; he wrote the book They Move the Millions) gave them to me and they're from the collection of Joe Frank (you might have seen the photos of his el model layout). I don't know who took them but I emailed Joe and asked if he had more info. (Hope he doesn't mind me posting them here. They're nearly 50 year old pictures so I doubt he'll have any issues.)
P.s. you can just zap to Newest Images to find the new ones fast.
Enjoy
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_8122.jpg
Jimmy
Do you know, or does anyone know, if the photographer of these beautiful pictures, Joseph Frank, is/was related to the film-maker and photographer,Robert Frank("Pull My Daisy","Exile On Main Street")?
Does anyone know how Joseph Frank compares to Joe Testagrose as a
mass transit photographer ?
Thanks again.
-Dave
This pic is identified as a Hi-V. It appears to be a composite car, at least to my untrained eyes.
Perhaps Joe Frank might know, but I suspect the two types may have operated in trains together as the steels were being recieved.
Joe Cunningham's book "interborough Fleet" confirms this, although this was dangerous should a derailment happen. A picture on page 50 demonstrates what would happen to the poor unfortunates riding in the composite car.
The Composites were steel framed with copper sheathed wooden sides, so other than "Malbone Street" type accidents I suspect management didn't consider mixed consists a problem.
Was the removal of the Composites an IRT decision or related to the banning of wooden cars post Malbone? I confess I haven't spent a lot of time checking what this site has to say about the removal.
Steel framing was common in the post 1900 period, many open streetcars were built with steel framing. Our 1902 Brill Open, 1164 at The Baltimore Streetcar Museum has steel frmaing, as did her 109 sisters. 1164 not only carries happy passengers, she also doubles as a two motor.
I wonder if there's any data somewhere on how well this is turning out for the PA. Meaning: whether the PA is making hand over fist on the transfer surcharge at the monorail station, or whether people are flipping them the finger, and either taking the city bus, or the cab, to the airport.
This might be a good way to predict how the Airtrain situation is going to play itself out. Frankly, it's hard for me to see a lot of cash suddenly beginning to drop into PA's coffers. Each time I went to JFK there were people marching off the Howard Beach station, heading towards the buses. But I wouldn't say that a lot of people were doing that. The buses were never crowded, I always had a seat.
The PA must expect the Airtrain to be used by a lot of people who are now taking cabs to the airport. I can't see how they would even make enough to cover the maintenance on the ticket machines, only from people who are currently using the shuttle buses.
What you saw at Howard Beach reflects, in part, that people don't have good options there yet. Also, note the planned JFK conference center near Jamaica Station; the project is designed to capture conference business that other cities get at their airports.
Since AirTrain will probably be open for business by November, there's no point in speculating. We'll know soon enough.
Sorry, bad editing.
As Peter mentioned you have to keep in mind the crisis the air travel industry has gone through since 9-11, EWR's yearly air traveler numbers are down to 1996 levels!!!
Also consider that with the extension of the A Line to ENY in 1946 and Euclid in 1948, the Lex's secondary purpose as an elevated connection to outer Fulton (Pitkin and Liberty) became much less important.
Also, do you know where I could find a track map of the "Manhattan
Junction" that once existed between the Jamaica and Fulton els at
what is now Bway Junction - East NY ? Thank you.
This is speculation.
GIF format is proprietary and patented foramt which was developed by Compuserve. Compuserver was sold to AOL, which also bought Netscape, an Opera competitor. There's a standard library for extracting GIF files whose use requires royalty payments when it is included in a for-sale software product. Possibly, Opera did not want to make such payments to a competitor and decided to develop their own GIF library.
The more common format for internet pictures is jpg which is not subject to patent restrictions because it is in the public domain.
Here's the skinny:
http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/Gif/origCompuServe.html
You're welcome!
I should contribute more of my own memories to "MyRecollection.com." But my negligence shouldn't discourage the rest of you. It's the perfect place for things that would be OT here!
Last week I posted a long message on SubTalk about my recollections of the now-gone Myrtle Avenue el. I realized as I was writing it that
it could be a candidate for "My Recollection" if I tightened and polished it up.
Also, thanks to "My Recollection", "Karl B" and I have had a fruitful and interesting e-mail correspondence for the past six months.
Thanks again. Please keep up all your fine work !
Which Karl B? We have Eastern Division Karl B(urkhardt) and Southern Division Karl B(ernstein). :)
Thanks for the submission e-mail address of "My Recollection". I will
e-mail whatever I think is suitable for, and fit to be posted on, your site.
Well, no, the Myrtle paralleled the Lex, since the Lex was first, and both served significant populations. The part of the Lex that was clearly redundant (Park Ave) was abandoned before electrification.
When did they change south to mean west?
Following that system, his directions are still wrong.
According to contemporary literature, parts of the Park Ave elevated structure were saved during demolition. They were used for the Cypress Hills extension.
Yes. That extension was opened on Memorial Day of 1893. Construction took about two years, which would place it around the same time as the Park Ave demolition.
How long would the construction take today? Ten years? Fifteen years? Do I hear twenty?
One reason that construction may have been able to proceed quickly is that Brooklyn Elevated secured the pledges from 80% of the property owners that no legal action would be taken against Brooklyn Elevated for damages.
One thing that is very clear from browsing the Brooklyn Eagle from the 19th century is that NIMBY's and law suits are not a recent phenomenon.
It's intersting that when the Canarsie Line was being built, those early form "NIMBY's" actually won out. The Canarsie line was supposed to be elevated east of Montrose Ave, and through the Wyckoff complex, and all the way to East New York. In the 1910's when they rebuilt and extended the el for the Myrtle line, they were expecting the Canarsie line to be elevated. I guess the 1920's Bushwick NIMBY's along the L line had more pull than the 1910's NIMBY's along Jamaica Ave.
I'm not to sure which is the case. But I'm sure this is the intersection of Myrtle/Grand.
Another good reason to give up dial-up!
I prefer reading and using geographic directions whenever and where- ever possible. "Change At Ozone Park" is a great book on the LIRR
abandoned Rockaway Branch, but it bugged me to read in it "westbound" (Manhattan-bound)for what was mostly northbound, and to read "east- bound" (Rockaway-bound) for what was mostly southbound, on a close to north-south line, at least from its turnout from the main line in Rego Park, to Hammel's Wye in the Rockaways.
I'm not a human compass either, but I like to think and write in terms
of sixteen compass points, working clockwise, north through north north west, inclusive. That way, I'm only off by 360 / 16 = 22 1/2 degrees at most.
I hear you but historically railroads used destinations as geographical markers. Just like the New York Central trains up the Hudson were considered west-bound trains. It's traditional railroad usage.
I personally like the UK descriptions of line directions: sod which way the line is or is not geographically going; label one direction Up (counterintuitively this is usually TO London) and the other Down.
Actually that's pretty normal usage. Up is toward (central area--London) and Down is away.
Used to have signs (still do?) in the 4th Avenue Brooklyn subway as "Uptown" toward Fort Hamilton, which is south, the opposite of Manhattan uptown.
If you're going north from Boston to Maine you're going "Down East" (down against the prevailing wind and away from Boston).
On Cape Cod the Lower Cape in north of the Upper Cape.
Of course there can be political implications, too. The left-of-center World Press Review had an advertiser who sold earth globes with a "corrective perspective" in which the southern hemisphere was on top. I wonder how the penguins felt walking right-side-up for a change? ;-)
So NYC's the freak in the central area being downtown then...
Under the BRT/BMT however, the Park Avenue L would be going both railroad and geographic west.
Even a Brighton train heading east from Culver Depot was going railroad west.
The IND and IRT were always north-south oriented. The BRT was east-west, with everything going toward Park Row being west and everything going away being east. So a Brighton train heading from Culver Depot to Park Row was always going westbound, according to the timetable, even when it was going map east. It was going "railroad west."
When the City took over the BMT became north-south, like the rest of the system.
Sorryy for that and the other typos, you know what I mean.....
(thanks to the guy who asked about the longest route length for reminding me of this question I wanted to ask. I also should search the archives)
Without thinking too hard, probably between 7/1/37, when the GG line fully opened, to 12/4/38, when the 6th Avenue L closed.
Once June 1940 rolled around, FUGGEDDABOUTIT!
My trip began with an uneventful Southwest Airlines flight from BWI to Midway. The only thing that happened worth noting was that a TSA agent ordered me to separate my 400 speed film from my 800 speed film next time I went through an airport security checkpoint because the 400 can go through the x-ray machine and the 800 can not. I have my 800 hand inspected because of that, but before, I never separated the 400.
Upon arrival in Chicago, I went to baggage claim, got my suitcase, and proceeded to the Orange Line to get into the city. The Orange Line is the only line I had been on before this visit. After buying a 3 day pass, I took the lead car, 3346, which was wrapped with an unattractive wrap for Target, to State/Lake. I then went down into the State Street subway and took the Red Line (2885) to Chicago. I do find the announcements saying “This is Chicago”, “Chicago is next”, and “This is Grand” to be rather amusing. I went to the hotel, left my stuff there, and then went out for more riding. I went out to Michigan Avenue where RTS-08 4564 pulled up on the 151 Sheridan Line. I took that down the Magnificent Mile (Michigan Avenue), over the Chicago River, to the corner of Michigan and Randolph. I then walked a block to Wabash where I got on the L. I took the Brown Line (3211) towards Kimball from Randolph/Wabash to Addison where I got some pictures, then 3280 to Francisco where I got a picture of a train from the ground at the grade crossing, and then 3209 out to the terminal at Kimball. An interesting thing I noted is that at the Sedgewick station, there is no guardrail on the platform, or is there something on the other side of the platform I just didn’t see? I then took the 81 bus (SLF 6813) to the Jefferson Park Blue Line station, where I caught car 3109 on an outbound train towards O’Hare. The operator on this train was very friendly and was more than willing to answer the few questions I had about how the CTA trains worked. I got some pictures and then went in to the airport in hope of finding a bathroom and a snack. I took the People Mover to Terminal 5, found nothing in terms of food, and saw nothing in terminals 2 or 3 either. Is it me, or does the people mover use AC Traction?
I did find a restroom so I utilized it before going back onto the subway. I rode car 3037 in to Clark/Lake. A CTA employee got on at Jefferson Park or some stop around there and rode in the cab all the way in to the city. I found it rather appalling that neither the T/O or the other employee could stop talking long enough to activate the automated announcements at the right times, if at all, resulting in some very strange announcements including the doors closing chime after the doors closed and the train had started moving! The trip down the median of that highway is very much like the WMATA Orange Line although the trains do not reach their maximum speed of 70 MPH. I also find the fact that Chicago seems to drop off the word “street” and “avenue” to result in some interesting signs, like this one: “CONGESTION THRU SACREMENTO” and “CONGESTION THRU CALIFORNIA”. I guess it is a long trip home for some people.
I then went up to the L to catch the Purple Line Express out to Howard; I would do the rest of the line to Linden and the Skokie Swift the next day. I got on car 2556 (can’t read my own handwriting on this entry) and took it out to Howard. This “express” is extremely slow and crowded .The train has many stops between the loop and the express segment starting at Belmont and large passenger turnovers at stations such as Fullerton and Belmont. The express trip is also slow, very rarely does the train go more than 35 MPH. Also, this could only happen in Chicago, where the el runs close to everything: The purple line trains sideswipe a low hanging tree branch just north of the Sheridan Station on every trip. Eventually, we got to Howard, where I got some pictures of the mostly empty yard before taking a Red Line (2811) to Thorndale. I got some pictures of Red Line trains entering and leaving the station and one northbound Purple Line passing, but the pictures weren’t great. I eventually got on 2758 which I took to Sheridan. I then bought a doughnut and took Flxible Metro-E 6046 on the 80 Irving Park to Lake Shore Drive. At Lake Shore, there was an X80 driver laying over. I took a picture of his bus and he opened the door and asked what I was doing. As soon as I mentioned the bulliten, he said “OK, OK” and closed the bus door. I spent the evening with a relative who was also in the city and her friend and eventually took the 2682 on the Red Line from Addison to Chicago and went back to the hotel.
The next day, I got up and went to the Chicago Station. A train pulled in just as I got there so I got and moved up at each station until I reached the 2nd car, 2743. At Belmont, I crossed the platform to wait for a Purple Line express up to Davis but first, 4 Brown Line trains came. I must say, the interlocking at Belmont is very poorly designed. A Brown Line to Kimball must cross 3 tracks effectively tieing up the entire line. Does anyone know of any plans to change this horrible layout? I missed the chance to get shots of the 3200 Series cars that originally had pantographs because I didn’t see them coming, they were at the end of two different Brown Lines. I did get a shot of a southbound Purple and a southbound Red both arriving at Belmont at the same time. Eventually, a Purple Line came and unlike the evening before, I got the railfan window. Like the evening before, we hardly ever broke 35 MPH, sideswiped the tree at Sheridan, and never passed the Red Line that I had taken from Chicago to Belmont, meaning it made it to Howard first. I took this train up to Davis. We made very good speed after Howard, surprising since the stops there are only a few blocks apart whereas it is 5.5 miles from Belmont to Howard and the train can barely go over 35 MPH the entire way.
I took care of my business in Evanston and got back on the L at Davis. I headed out to Linden on car 2965. Why is Linden signed as Linden-Wilmette in all the signage? I crossed over at Linden for the next train back to Howard, 2587. When we arrived, I went up to the overhead crossing at the north end of Howard and got pictures of a Red Line on the turnback loop in the yard as well as arriving and departing Yellow and Purple Line trains. I eventually descended from my perch and got on car 3447 out to Skokie. The Yellow Line probably ended up being my favorite L line since it is fast and unique. I did notice when we switched power sources at the Skokie Shops but it is hard to notice. At Skokie, I found absolutely nothing to eat anywhere nearby and I did not feel like waiting for a bus to Old Orchard. I got on the next train after the one I had taken out, I find that taking a train back with the same T/O can arise suspicion. The lead car was 3346 and again, this ride was fast and pleasant. At Howard, I crossed over to get on car 2680 on the Red Line, which I took to Jackson. I then walked to the Federal Center where I got lunch. What is done at the Federal Center that requires people’s bags to be x-rayed and people to walk through a metal detector just to get to the food court?
After lunch, I got back on the Red Line at Jackson, this time on car 2961. I took this to 35th Street. But when I got off at 35th to get a picture of the front of the train and then a picture of the back with Comiskey Park in the background, a CTA employee said “What are you doing? You can’t take pictures down here.” I told him about the bulletin but he asked me where my permit was and said the police were down there and would arrest me if they caught me. I decided I had better things to do than argue (I had the bulletin on me but this was going to be a hopeless cause) so I exited the system as I had planned to do and got pictures of the ballpark from the street. I then went back to the subway and took 2952 down to 95th. The run down the Dan Ryan is also comparable to the WMATA Orange Line and the CTA Blue Line. At 95th, I got back on the same train at the other end but the window was already taken. I decided not to wait for the next train. The lead car was now 2927. I took this to Washington, where I got some pictures and movies of trains coming from and going to the next stop at Lake. For those of you who don’t know, there is just one really long platform that extends from Lake all the way to Jackson. Because of this super platform, the next train I got on was 2627, but I got on at Lake, not Washington, without having to use a turnstile again. And yes, people run down the platform to the next station. I almost got one on “video” but I turned it off right before the guy would have whizzed by the camera.
I went back to the hotel, then went back to Chicago and got on the 6th car of a Red Line train, 2774, and took that to Addison. To further prove that this line needs major improvement, a Brown Line train we connected with at Fullerton made it to Belmont before us and was gone, and then when we arrived at Belmont, we were held for some unexplained reason. Luckily, we left before the Brown Line that had arrived at the same time we did. I watched the Cubs lose to the Phillies, 3-0, in a fast but not one of the best played games ever. Wrigley Field is a great ballpark and is one of my favorites. All of your baseball fans who haven’t been there yet should go see it. After the game, I went back to Addison, where a long line of fans cascaded out of the station house and into Addison Street itself. That station is not built to handle crowds. Eventually, I got through the turnstile at one of the gates manned by a CTA employee with a bus farebox and got to the platform. I was at the back just because of where I wound up. Eventually, a train came and I got on the last car, 2740, which I took back to Chicago. It seemed that if there was any extra service running that night, it was very minimal.
The next day was more of a touristy day for me. I went to the Chicago Art Institute after sleeping late and having a late breakfast. To get to the art museum, I went by foot. I then took a MAN Artic (7323) on the 6 Jeffrey Express to the Museum of Science and Industry. Those buses are in really bad shape. They lack air conditioning, the seats are very uncomfortable, and the emergency windows fly open when the bus turns. Even so, the driver was still able to make good speed on Lake Shore Drive. Unfortunately, I only had 45 minutes at the museum since it closed at 4 so I saw the model train layout, which was amazing, and then went to the brain exhibit to play with the memory interactive thing. (E-mail me if you want to know more about it) The museum closed at 4 so once it closed, I went to the bus stop for the 10. When RTS-08 4724 came, I got on. Of course, not everyone could fit on this one bus. After all the tourists figured out how to use their transit cards/passes (most tried sticking it in the dollar bill slot, so it took forever for this bus to load), we still left about one third of the people waiting at the museum because the driver made no effort to make people move to the back. There was plenty of room back there. The trip up Lake Shore went well and I got off at the corner of State and Van Buren in the Loop. I went up into the Library L station and took an Orange Line (2nd car, 3395) to Clark/Lake to get some Tower 18 action. I stayed for about 10 or 15 minutes and got some pictures before walking to State to catch a Red Line. Of course while I was walking, a Purple Line express with 2400 Series cars with these red and white stripes on the front came. I wanted to ride these cars and see if anything was special about them but I never did. Does anyone know why these cars have the red and white strips on the front? I caught 2615 on the Red Line, the 5th car on the train, up to Chicago, and I went to the hotel. I took a cab to Midway and flew in on ATA to National. Warning to anyone using Midway: Their security checkpoint is NOT by any means efficient. Allow extra time!
We arrived at the old terminal at National so I took a shuttle bus over to terminal B, bridged over to the Metro, and took Breda 4010 to Gallery Place and the last car of a Red Line, Breda 3242 back home, ending a very successful trip. I now have been on all CTA lines except the Green and the Blue south of Clark/Lake. Pictures coming soon to my website…
Questions other than those bolded:
How many buses have Clever Devices? I saw one on the first RTS-08 I rode on the 151 but it wasn’t working. I also think I saw a LED on a Metro-E on the 3 King Drive Line and saw the device on one of the low floors.
Does the Purple Line just run mixes of whatever cars are sitting in the yard? I saw every type of car on that line except the cars with the folding doors that run on the Blue Line.
Does that light on the sign box that indicates the train run express ever work? What do they use it for? Battery runs?
Why does the Purple Line end at Howard except rush hours? Why can’t they just run the Red Line up to Linden at all times? Is it because of the 6 car maximum north of Howard?
Do CTA T/Os ever bother to look at the cab signals? I only noticed one who did this on my entire trip and it makes the ride much smoother. Most seemed to wait for the alarm and then slammed on the brake. One Blue Line T/O I think put the train BIE because he was going to overshoot the stop.
How come most of the platforms are longer than the trains?
I think that is it for now, thanks in advance to whoever can answer all or some of those questions. If I have more I will post them. Also, thanks to the people who provided advice before I left and to George for posting bulletin R146-03.
Going out on a limb here, since I've spent all of about 8 hours in Chicago one day a few years ago, but with a name like "Federal Center", I'd guess it is a federal government office building at least in part. In the post 9/11 world, this means prepare to go through the metal detectors and x-ray machines.
Just look at the Old Post Office Pavillion or the Reagan Building / Intl Trade Center here in DC, same deal to get to the food court in either.
The fact that the Old Post Office Pavillion and the Reagan Building here have such measures does not surprise me. The fact that I walk into what I think is an office building of some sort in Chicago and have to go through such security was a bit surprising to me.
BTW, if you live down here (which I gather you do), you should join the other DC SubTalkers and BusTalkers (most post only on the latter) some time.
Those are cars that are designated as work motors. If motive power is needed for a work train, the cars with the red and white stripes are the ones pulled from the service fleet and put on the work train. I don't think there's anything special about them in terms of hardware.
"How come most of the platforms are longer than the trains?"
As far as I know, the entire CTA system is designed for eight-car trains. Trains of that length aren't usually operated except during rush hour, though.
And, as for the Federal Center you mentioned, that's the Dirksen Federal Building that contains various Federal courtrooms and offices. Security is just as high in Chicago as in any other large city.
Frank Hicks
The one day I went to Chicago was a Saturday, so no Purple or Yellow lines for me. Loop travel is kindof annoying without the purple line, particularly getting from anywhere the green line is to anywhere it doesn't go.
Even without the Purple Line, you still have the Orange going on the inner rail and the Brown on the outer. I never took a single Green Line train on my entire visit.
That is too bad. Of course, you have to leave something for a reason to come back for another visit.
When you were at M of S & I, my way back to the North Side is taking the #55 Garfield bus to the "new" Green Line station at 55th (Garfield Blvd). This is a relatively safe trip, but not one that I would do after dark. The Green Line is one of the more interesting routes on the system, both sides of the Loop.
You mentioned the speed on the Evanston Express (Purple) trains. North of Lawrence, where the line transitions to embankment, your operator should have been pushing CAB 55 the entire way to just past Morse approaching Jarvis station and the southern limits of Howard Interlocking.
As for the Blue Line (O'Hare) trains. The CAB 70 is for coasting only. Trains can not take power over 55 MPH; however, they may coast faster than 55 MPH. Because most of the right-of-way north of Jefferson Park is a raceway, the CTA raised the coasting limit to CAB 70 about five years ago to eliminate the many penalty brake applications that slowed down train operation.
No CTA train can take power above the CAB 55 MPH limit.
I remember the days when the Evanston Express operated express between the Merchandise Mart and Howard, using PCC cars. Those were the days to ride the Evanston train. Well, when the 4000's were running prior to 1973, that would have been an even better ride.
Your question about mixing cars on the Evanston. Currently, there are 2400's (Boeing) cars and 2600's (Budd/Transit America) cars assigned to the Purple line. Yes, CTA does mix it up as it would be next to impossible to keep trains segregated with cuts and adds taking place at Howard and Linden.
I hope you enjoyed your stay here.
Jim K.
Chicago
Sedgewick: Used to have outside tracks, with a double-island where the North Shore trains stopped. Alas, no longer, and highly unlikely to change since the North Avenue bridge is no longer wide enough for four tracks.
Purple Line Express slow: I believe there are slow zones along the embankment because of a lack of proper maintenance. Unfortunate, yes. Also, it used to be much more of a real express, skipping several stations between the Loop and Belmont, but not any longer. Part of the reason it was made local was to absorb the huge increase in ridership at stops shared by the Brown Line.
Crowds at Addison: Sadly, this stations IS designed to handle more crowds than most, but it still has room for improvement. The platform currently can hold enough to fill two 8-car trains (one north, one south), and still leave people standing. So adding platform capacity wouldn't necessarily help much.
MAN Artic: These were purchased used from Seattle a few years ago as a temporary measure and will be replaced by new articulated busses from some maker in Texas starting this fall. That's why they're so trashy.
Fed Center Security: Like a lot of cities, has greatly increased security since 9-11. Chicago was lucky and didn't suffer any attacks, but the Loop was panicked that day and the Sears Tower is suffering from nervous tenants despite greatly increased security. Strikes me as odd to focus so much on building security since all the building security in the world wouldn't have helped 9-11. Why include the food court? Probably because a lot of the Federal employees eat there, I'd guess. Or maybe they determined the layout required it.
I have no idea what you mean by a "Clever Device"? The newest busses, NOVA busses, and the second-newest ones (not sure the names) kneel and have a platform that slides out for wheelchairs or other disabled persons. it's quick enough that I see drivers do it for elderly people frequently. The current workhorse of the fleet has the stairs that can be made into a little elevator for wheelchairs. It takes a couple minutes to execute usually and isn't very efficient.
The MAN Artics of course don't have anything, but the replacements for that are low-floor.
also took pics of the R36 on the 7 line too,i,ll post those a bit later.
til next time
Joe C, you should not have used flash. Pictures would have came out much better without it.
ok,next.the R36 pics
So keep it up! Take more photos, the more you take the better you'll get, and you'll see what works, and what doesn't.
Thanks for sharing yours.
til next time
-They're old. They've worked hard for the city and have built up a level of character that only time can grant.
-I like the glass covers over the florescent lights.
-I like the large circular air vents at either end.
-They're red for goodness sake! That whole silver thing is over done.
-You can feel like a real strap-hanger in one of them.
-Some of the older ones, now all reefed I sadly feel, had square corners in the windows. Just think of it!
I like all the car types in general, but my least favorite is the R-40; I always slide out of the seats.
More Redbird Pics
The venom is probably because some of us (who hate them) have gotten sick of everyone treating them as the greatest thing since the polio vaccine.
Here's why I hate them:
They're old. They've worked hard for the city and it's time for them to go. They aren't living beings and can never develop character.
I hate the way the fluorescent lights turn off at gaps (most cars aren't like that, they don't have glass covers either).
I hate the circular air vents, linear A/C vents do a much better job.
Silver is sleek and modern. The Redbirds are dark and rusty. The appealing World's Fair scheme is gone and replaced with their current bad color.
They still have straps. Straps suck because they are on hinges and there's a limited number. Bars are better.
I don't know what you're talking about here.
Why is this a reason to keep them around? Everything has a finite lifespan, and the Redbirds have simply outlived their usefulness. It's nothing really to get upset over, just move on to the next oldest set of cars and start worshipping those. If NYCTA were to keep the redbirds around, then those cars would become more and more of a fiscal drain on them, since generally older equipment is much more maitenance intensive.
Btu now its time for them to go, they've provided over 40+ years of service all over the IRT and yes the red identity will be gone. Also it will put an end to trains with paineted exteriors.
I also like the red color, although the silver is there for a purpose; it's all about stainless steel. When the newer fleets get older, they shouldn't have the type of corrosion that the redbirds do. -Nick
Jimmy
Mob Project
Although I would never take part in anything like this, I began to see some ways in which I might latch on to this movement and gain some further notoriety for myself. I have started an Antimob Project, which will be a concerted effort by everyone not to appear at a certain place for approximately 10 minutes. One can take part in this project without doing anything, which should appeal to many passive people like myself. I feel that a public space suddenly devoid of people would make a a very poewerful existential statement.
Making this a success involves getting everyone in the world to participate. What initially might appear to be impossible is really not that overwhelming.
Let me illustrate. The Antimob Project's first event will be this Monday in Grand Central Terminal from 5:00 - 5:10 pm. I am asking everyone to avoid the main concourse of the Terminal during this time. Although this is the height of the rush hour, I feel that people who normally use the Terminal at this hour could take part by arriving either there 5 or 10 minutes earlier and boarding their trains or waiting until after 5:10 to board.
The beauty of the Antimob Project is that everyone can take part. It will be especially easy for people who live outside of New York and have no plans to be in the area on Monday. It will also be a way for those who have passed away to make their absence felt.
I have started yet another Yahoo group to draw more attention to myself, which is the ultimate purpose of the Antimob Project.
Antimob Project
Just stay out of Grand Central Terminal's Main Concourse on Monday at 5 pm and you will be part of truly dramatic public event.
I don't think anyone will notice the difference.
I used to live in Cincinnati, Ohio. Does that help?
I just started collecting postcards of Cincinnati's Union Terminal, and I think that the 2nd Antimob event will be in Cincinnati Union Terminal, which I believe is being put to another use.
Thanks for your interest.
The Union Terminal event might be a little tricky to arrange, as you will have to explain it to so many kids going to the Natural History Museum and Historical Society. It will be a little spooky, with the mannikins sitting on the decks of the full-size riverboat in the replica of the waterfront set up in the old underground parking lot, and nobody down there looking at it. However, it will be a nice change to have no eight-year-olds shouting across the whispering arch in the Rotunda, just as there will be no eight-year-olds shouting across the whispering arch in front of the Oyster Bar in GCT on Monday. Please, God. Just ten minutes.
Trains will operate seven days, with last runs at 12:50 am from Union Station and 1:31 from Sierra Madre Villa. There will be 10-minute headways in rush hours, 12 minutes base and weekends, and 20 minutes in the evenings, pretty much standard for other MTA rail services.
Coincident with the Gold Line opening is the final day today for Route 401, an express bus service on the Pasadena Freeway. I'll miss the excitement of a terrifying ride at top speed on the ever-curving parkway. But rail replaces rubber, and that is to be welcomed.
So, George, will you be one of the rail fans on the first train? I expect it to be pretty crowded during the day because of the free rides, but the first few runs should be fairly empty. I expect to ride it sometime tomorrow, but it will be after sunrise.
Tom
Good news for LA.
Still, a good thing. But it took decades to get LA to this point.
The New York region just added 25+ miles of light rail on the West Bank of the Hudson.
Why do I have the feeling that Fred never even considered taking the Gold Line to Union Station, and an Amtrak train to Carlsbad?
Tom
Don't ask us in Los Angeles. All subway construction was ended by a referendum several years ago. What was supposed to be an extension of the Red Line Subway to East L.A. will now be an extension of the Gold Line surface light rail line.
Tom
At least in Chicago, you can take up to seven people with the same card, provided you all start out together. it will calculate transfers, etc, as long as the group starts together. In other words, you can't start out with one person making one trip and then add more people to your trip with one card.
My question is this:
WHY? If you can start with seven people, why can't you start by yourself, then pick up two people (or however many) and user your card with them - the logic SEEMS straightforward; am I missing something?
Smartcard generally refers to a fare media that uses rf wireless technology
The current metrocard uses magnetic media and also allow encoding if information as the rf smartcard does
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But HELLA THANKS to CHOO CHOO and GREENBERGER and RIPTA42HOPETUNNEL
for meeting us along the ways.....
Hella welcome, brah!
I arrived at Bridge St. between 6:30 and 6:45 and instantly hooked up some a railfan and some SEPTA employee railfans. The place was abuzz with dashing commuters and an army of men in orange vests ripping everything off the platform that was not set in concrete, getting a head start on the 9 day station switch. I made some rounds up and down the two platforms, then went down into the mezzinine areas (I took a pic of the famous token booth from Trading Places) and then left fare control to take some pics of the outside of the terminal.
After returning to fare control I went down to the end of the platform to take pics of the workers dismantling the interlocking, but myself and a fleet of other railfans were shooed away due to "insurance reasons". I then talked for about 20 minutes to a SEPTA signal maintainer and Philly NRHS VP about interlocking towers and machines on the SEPTA system and around Philly. As it became 7:30 the excitement began to grow. I was somewhat disapointed in the lack of railfans in general and subtalkers in specific. There was a crown at the other end of the platform, but when I inspected them they just appeared to be normal passengers hanging out, waiting for the next train. Also because the north end of the platform was seeing a lot of traffic from departing passengers I stayed at the front end of the platform. A board room's worth of SEPTA top management arrived and I hob knobed with a few of them and also was interviewed by a guy from KYW news radio. I also saw a channel 10 news personality and camera crew head to the front end of the platform to video the last train leaving. The SEPTA brass altered the schedule so the news crews could get a better shot of the last train, which would now leave at 7:59, not 7:53. The last train to arrive pulled in and the last train to depart also pulled in. About 6 railfans entered along with some SEPTA employees and I got a spot at the railfan window (the head car of the last train was 1134 for those of you who care). What I did not know that the REAL railfan location was in the LAST car. This is where the subtalkers, including Chuchubob were.
I'll admit that I made a mistake, but I am not too upset because I didn't have to fight my way in for a square inch of railfan window and although last train heading out pictures aren't as cool as last train leaving pictures, I'm sure I can get those from someone else, and the crowds seems to have been such that I might not have been able to get any pictures at all. Besides, I learned a lot of neat stuff from the SEPTA Brass including that a time lapse camera is being professionally installed to film the changeover. Also, the new trackbed will be rail on rubber on concrete instead of rail on concrete as the rest of the 1908's rehabilitated el is.
I rode the last train to 8th St where I ran into Chuchubob and we talked about stuff until he had to get off at the Colingswood PATCO station. He had both thought that the other hadn't shown up for some reason. the railfan that I had hooked up with had complained what a poor railfan turnout things had been and that there were more SEPTA brass than railfans. Talk about a platform length appart and worlds away :-)
Here are some of the interesting facts I learned.
1) Bridge St. was constructed as a temporary station in 1922 as the El was to run to the Roosevelt Parkway. 81 years later the temporary station is being replaced. With that definition my 1969 Mustang is only my temporary car.
2) The Broad St Line still operates with 3 interlocking towers. Fern Rock has an NX machine controling the yard and the loop. Olney has a US&S Model-14 EP machine controling the interlocking north and south of the station and Snyder which is open as needed and has a US&S model 14 for the crossover there. All else is run on the IDENTRA system. There are also some old 1906 vintage wood cabinet US&S machines being stored in the signal shoppes at Fern Rock and the Maintainer guy is working to ensure their preservation.
I hope to post some pictures soon. I took 75 hi-res images in all.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Other than that I'm glad that I was up there to ride the last train out of Bridge St, and meeting all of the other Subtalkers, and other Philly transit fans. It was a blast to talk about the history of the old piss-holder (and bird-shit sanctuary) and looking forward to the future of the new terminal, (by the way, I will be there on 8/4 during the morning rush hour to check it out. Then on 8/5 and 8/6 I will be in DC for a two day WMATA ride!). Riding the last train out was a hoot, and I loved every minute of it.
TransitChuckG, take care of that hand. Jersey Mike, please let someone get a word in edgewise, and Churchubob, Mike Greene, Darryl, and all of the people I met there, it was a blast putting a face to
the internet handles we go by. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Mark DeLoatch (please spell it right)
mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Chuck Greene
I basically was trying to say "I always hear about [things closing] in other cities [New York cough ahem], we only have two lines here [in philly] so I thought I'd come out [as it is special]."
Yes I should have thought of something better, but its hard when a mike gets put in your face and you are asked very simple and direct questions. The fact I was pretening to be a regular commuter at the terminal didn't help matters either.
A Freudian slip?
:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems OK to me.
Bratzman.
Hehehehehehe >:)
See ya,
Chuck Greene
My photos of the event are here.
Was this enough railfanning for one day? Not quite. Earlier, I drove along the Camden-Trenton light rail ROW looking for test running. I didn't see any, but at Cove Road, Pennsauken, a CSX train was idling while waiting for a Conrail Shared Assets train to come alongside and preceed it over the Delair Bridge into Philly. The Conrail train had a GP38 on the front and a GP15-1 on the rear.
Ah well, here's to a new terminal... looks pretty nice so far.
We took the J into Jamaica Center and roamed the eastern stations along the Queens Blvd line.
A fellow at Jamaica Center offered the group advice on the subway system, thinking we were tourists, and insisted that this documentary must be for a high school project.
Heightened levels of fatigue were kicking in.
After completing the JMZ, and the L, and lower 8th Avenue stations and Fulton St on the J, we are on the final trip. Car 6254 of the Culver Local to Avenue X will take us to our ultimate goal.
Current Station:4 Avenue
Next post will be from Av X, or perhaps later. We still want to do some shuttle bus runs to cover closed stations. For those of you following earlier posted ETAs, our apologies. Thanks for sharing the journey with us, and I'm sure we'll be discussing the ride further once everyone gets home and has a chance to get some shut-eye.
Total Trip Time: 33+ hrs
...and thanks for keeping us up to date here. I've enjoyed hearing about the trip.
CG
Congrats!
Considering some of the delays forced onto the group by the film crew, I'd say 33 hours is pretty darn impressive!
You do realize, of course, that someone will have to do it again next year, when the Manny B., Stillwell, and possibly the Bergen controlled express track reopen.
Jimmy
I notice in pics by Chapter 11 Choo Choo, It show skfny himself and his lifeline,The Handspring PDA/Cell Phone who kept us informed through this finest hour. THANKS SKFNY FOR KEEPING IS INFORMED!!!
:)
Yes, I really appreciated him doing that for us. It was very neat.
Thanks.
My understanding is that demolition on the portion west of Rockaway Avenue was delayed for years (1942(?)). The argument was that the el couldn't be taken down because of the trolleys still running underneath--i.e., arguing that maintaining service with trolley hangers etc. was too difficult during demolition, but buses could be detoured, but this was actually a backdoor way for the LaGuardia administrattion to force abandonment of trolleys, even during wartime. Fulton car was abandoned 8/10/41.
I have never researched this myself but was told this by someone knowledgeable.
As to the Pitkin part, I recall the structure up from the Canarsie Line and down from Liberty still intact in early 1957, but demolition may have started on other parts.
It would make sense that demolition was delayed somewhat. If memory serves, it took a while for the J line structure east of the Archer Avenue connection to be demolished.
-- Ed Sachs
I don't care much for the egg cream. If it was so good, why was it never bottled?
CG
I saved two empty bottles, because they're cool :). The label says in bold, white letters, "DO NOT SHAKE!"
Pour it into a glass and stir it.
Thhere is no egg in it. The term "egg" in the egg cream was meant to sugget the kind of froth you get on top of a pie from beaten egg whites.
No cream, either.
It doesn't really work out in bottling, because you are supposed to end up with a dark colored soda with a frothy white top, and this doesn't translate well, any more than you could bottle an ice cream soda.
-- Ed Sachs
You can also take a teaspoon or two to settle your stomach.
I highly doubt it has anything to do with that. It's much cheaper to run a store where you walk in and pick something off a rack or from the refrigerator and pay the single cashier employed at the store than have a candy store with maintenance and labor-intensive soda fountains.
The demise of candy stores run part-in parcel with the end of La Rosa Spaghetti, Silvercup Bread, Hoffman's Beverages
When I went on camp trips in the early 1990s, Lunch included Hoffman Cola. I don't lament their passing. Maybe now the current campers get a more palatable beverage.
and the 3rd Avenue El.
I don't see how you can compare this to the other three. The first three were private companies that failed to compete in the modern world. That is real progress. The Third Avenue El was destroyed for silly political reasons.
However, one thing most old war horses like me will tell you, and we are in agreement on this: Growing up in New York after World War II and into the mid-50's was a treat. I'm sorry to say this but those of you who grew up afterward really missed something special.
Your parents probably said the same thing about their time and the same thing will apply to future generations who say things about their childhood.
The world hasn't really changed, you have. I'm not saying that as a bad thing, but everyone looks back at THEIR childhood as the best and THEIR time as the best.
Yes, I do. But were it not for the Great Depression it would still apply.
I'm not so sure our great-great grandparents would long for the days before child labor laws when they worked in the mill from age 8, or the time they endured poverty and/or persecution in the old country before coming to America, only to endure more poverty and persecution. Yes, those were the days...
Not having grown up in postwar New York, I can't say one way or the other... and, yes, the world has changed since then.
An illusion. I never post a message unless I can add to the discussion in some way and a post that shows only agreement and nothing else is completely worthless, with disagreement there's a contrary agreement or usually a correction to be posted.
I don't see how the rest of your post is relevant here. You're statement about the time of your childhood being the best time to be a child ever is completely subjective and false.
YooHoo. 'nuff said. :(
It wasn't VERY carbonated, but it was partially. I suppose after enough glass claims, they did away with it. But YooHoo was sold in the early 50's as "an egg cream in a bottle" by Officer Joe Bolton and the Merry Mailman.
I don't think so. That 9 is probably upside-down, but I can at least attest to the fact that candy stores were dead by the 80s.
Around Ave U and the Brighton Line, there were still several places to get egg-creams into the early 1990s. A lot of bodegas on the Lower East Side make them today, or at least they did when I lived there, 1996-2000.
I've proofread what I just typed, and nothing is upside-down. Well, maybe the zeros.
The 0s are definitely upside-down. The 1s, that depends on your configuration.
Until about 10-15 years ago I could still get seltzer delivered in traditional bottles, but I think they pretty much died out because too many people were stealing the bottles, which are no longer made and have become "collectible."
Jimmy
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
Hey, Chris you forgot to mention that next to Riga, he makes most foamers look 100% sane in comparison...:)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I transferred to the (waiting) 3 at 42 to the 1 at 96 and
fell asleep STANDING UP so much so that the curve north of
225 woke me up sharply.. and when I opened my eyes and saw
train, .......I THOUGHT I WAS STILL DOING THE TRIP, brah.
The 5:09p to NY came 14 minutes late, and the 5:24p came 9 minutes late. I don't know if this made the NJT website but it wasn't too major to affect a lot of people. The 5:09p took also a lot of 5:24p's passengers since it came a couple of minutes after 5:24.
All westbound trains went normal.
Then, at precisely 5:46p, ....... . ....... ....... .......
an unexpected ALP46 tooted its horn and I thought it was an "unscheduled" super express, however, it was carrying 10 Amfleets! I waved at the Regional. It was so hot to see that train trundle up at 100mph on 3 Track at that time.
What is the schedule for NJT equipment usage on AMTRAK trains?
Also, are the tinted side windows on the AEM7AC's a natural feature to block and absorb heat and sunlight or was it new? They looked cool as well.
For reasons to be determined (one being the E60's are in the shop for new cab signals) ALP-46's are being used on Amtrak Clocker trains.
Nice use of the interlocking name in your post.
Scattered people arrive at the high platform when the 5:09p arrived on 2 Track at around 5:23p and I had to inform one man who sat on the bench to walk over to the train that was already stopped on Track 2 receiving passengers. Also, another man when the late 5:38p train came and was sitting on 2 Track asked me thrice (I didn't know he was addressing me) "Is that train going to Newark?" I replied "yes", trying not to dismay the passenger, reassuring that the 6:14p was nearby.
Even the engineer (who wore a sky blue and white "jersey-type" clothing, a blonde, very-short haired male, contemplated that I was a passenger and bent his head down with his chin near the hand controls (still looking at the tracks of course) as he was speeding to (45mph?) past me to switch to 1 Track.
I figured a railfan cannot only confuse people, but also be a useful tool in these and other applicable situations. So I thank Jersey Mike for his idea.
ALP 46 #4612 on westbound Clocker Friday afternoon.
First, the good part. At the hearing, my summons was DIMISSED. When I went into the room with the judge where the hearing was held, the judge immediately said I'm dismissing the ticket. He said there is no case to support the alleged violation. I didn't have to say a word before he told me that the ticket was dismissed. I waited about 5 minutes to be heard and the hearing took less than two minutes; but I had to wait what seemed like 20 minutes for the judge to write up the decision and the paperwork to be issued to me.
On the way back to Manhattan, I went to Jay St Boro Hall to catch an A or C train to B'Way Nassau. While waiting for the train (I got a C) I saw a R32 F going to Queens (didn't catch head car numbers). Then I got on an R62 4 (head cars 1550/1549; the first car had a RFW!!) at Fulton St and got off at GC. I then went to the Transit Museum Store and met up with Jimmy there shortly before 5 PM. We left at 5 PM to get on the 7 train. We got on a Redbird Express headed by 9719 (9572/9573 were the rear cars).
Now the ugly part. I take my camcorder out to film when we reach HP. I start to film as we emerge from the tunnel. After we leave QBP and get on the express track, the T/O opens his cab door and orders me to put the camcorder away (in a rude manner) unless I have a permit. Of course, I didn't have a permit, but I had the ruling from the judge I got at the hearing. So I told the T/O I had a judge's order saying I could film. He asked to look at it so I showed it to him and he looked at it and then gave it back to me then he closed the cab door. I went back to filming then when the train was around 40 or 46 St, I overhear the T/O say "I have a person on my train who is filming and he refuses to stop." At that point I stopped recording for the rest of the trip. :( The T/O then opened the cab door again and told me that there might be cops waiting for you at Woodside. When we got to Woodside, there were no cops; there were also no cops at WP or Main where I expected them to be. When we finally arrived at Main (around 5:38 PM) the T/O spoke to another MTA employee about the issue and that other employee asked me was I the one filming in the train. I told him yes I was doing the filming. He then told me that filming is not allowed in the subway since 9/11. I asked this employee what about the info given on the website; he told me the same answer that filming is not allowed since 9/11. Then the T/O told me that you could get arrested for doing this (the filming) and that the court order you showed me doesn't mean a thing. He also mentioned that he gave the cops my description so they will be looking for you. At that point we took another Redbird leaving Main at 5:44P (last car 9582; this is the car we got on and I didn't catch the head car number of this train) back to Woodside so I could get some more pictures. While at Woodside, I saw 8 other redbird sets other than the one Jimmy and I were on as well: Head cars 9762/9763 Exp to Main, head cars 9624/9625 to TS, the Subway Series Cars 9712/9713 (Head cars), head cars 9668/9669 to TS, head cars 9602/9603 Exp to Main, and head cars 9670/9671 (I think going to TS).
Here's the bad part (this wasn't all that bad as it turned out). While I was watching the trains come into Woodside and was taking pictures (near the west end of the platform), two undercover police officers came up to us and asked us what we were doing. I explained to them that we are railfans and I am taking pictures of the Redbirds before they are taken out of service for good. He explained that he has to question anybody who is doing anything that looks suspicious. So he took both of our names, addresses, and phone numbers down and then they thanked us and left us alone. At least these officers had some common sense. I then took some more pictures before we got on an R62/A 7 to go to 74th St Broadway. We had no more problems after that.
While we were waiting for an R32 E to JC to come in, we saw an R32 F (head cars 3915/3914) pull into Roosevelt Av. The next train was our R32 E and we took that to JC where we subsequently transferred to a J train. We got in the rear car and stayed there the whole time we were on the train (all the way to Chambers). I was able to get some good pictures from the rear window of the train. To my surprise, we saw no cop at Marcy Av. After we got off at Chambers, we got on a 6 at BB; I got off at GC and Jimmy got off at 68th St. I got some pictures of the passageway from the shuttle platforms to the mezzanine above the Lex Av trains, took the shuttle to TS and headed home on NJT from Penn Station. I get off at Princeton Junction.
It turned out that the train I got on (a 9:10 PM express from NYP; express from Newark Airport to Rahway; head car 6028) had a power failure (possibly an engine problem) at Rahway. Everybody had to get off the train and wait for the next train to pull in (head car 5066; it pulled in at 10:16 PM). I must have been at Rahway for at least a half an hour because of the delay. I finally got home after 11 PM.
Koi
Obviously "IF" anything ever happened to you again, more than likely it would be thrown out of court.
It is really a shame that so many MTA employees believe that photography in the subways is illegal. I think it all stems from a misinterpretation of the memo about reporting suspicious activities such as taking photographs. Of course, the MTA does nothing to clear up the confusion either, even though management knows photography is legal. They will not do anything until someone sues them over the bogus summons.
Tom
What a disgusting coward. I'll bet if a couple of 13-year-old were harassing passengers in the lead car, and someone asked him to help, he'd be piddling in his panties and saying, "Ooooh, I'd better let the police handle that!" What a loser.
What did you expect the T/O to do? Wrestle Koi to the floor and tie him up until police arrived? He was misinformed, but not necessarily a coward. He was following the instructions he was given.
Tom
You should know by now that Peter thinks everybody is either a coward or a suit covered anus.
As far as I'm concerned, in the post-9/11 era the typical New Yorker displays about as much "courage" as the white kid in the first video clip ("High School Fight") on this page.
If you don't use a tripod or anything like that,then you can film and take pics as you please.IT IS LEGAL!If I saw someone taking pictures like I've seen someone do twice while I've been riding the train at the RFW,I'd let them do it without a problem.Cause unlike the rest of my fellow worker's,I know what is right and what is wrong.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Koi
Jimmy
I still can't believe that the T/O on the 7 that we got on at GC found out I was filming so quickly. On future subway railfan trips (whenever that will be), I'll still attempt to film from the RFW of a train unless it becomes illegal to do so. I wonder if I'm filming from the RFW of, say, a J train (which I want to do, BTW) and a bunch of Subtalkers are right there with me and the T/O (who is railfan-unfriendly/not a Subtalker) orders me to stop filming and I explain that I have a judge's decision that says filming is legal (and the other Subtalkers all agree that I'm not doing anything againat MTA rules) would the T/O back down then instead of threating me with police arrest if I don't stop filming? The way the T/O reacted to me filming was, IMO, uncalled for.
Koi
Jimmy
Ooh... get him on film, get his badge #, and bang him in. The Times group should have done that to the S/A who bounded out of his booth at Broad Channel to threaten the crew with confiscation of their cameras, then scrutinized the simple 8½' x 11" permit for five minutes.
At least they were more corteous unlike those MTA employees. Well these days with all the security concerns, I wasn't surprised that they took down your info.
Koi
Jimmy
Not really a stirring precedent for subway photography, since it could be interpreted to mean that taking photographs is not a violation (the good way), or that the cop screwed up writing the ticket and only his ineptness caused the dismissal (the bad way).
Tom
I tend to agree with you, since the summons did not (and could not) cite any statute which would make videotaping illegal, but it is possible the judge was saying the officer was not specific enough about the time and place.
Tom
The officer who wrote the ticket made it pretty clear where and when the videofilming took place: in the front car of a #7 train at Grand Central Station at 3:53 PM on July 11, 2003 so, in this case, the judge could not fault the officer for not being specific enough on time and place of the incident.
Koi
Since the summons was dismissed by a magistrate and no law was violated (The People failed to present a prima facia case), you now have grounds for a lawsuit. A summons can be issued for minor violations of law, in lieu of arrest. In other words, you were falsely arrested. I would advise you to seek legal counsel, either a private attorney or the ACLU (if they're willing to take your case).
It appears you may be entitled to a substantial monetary settlement. This would send a strong, clear message to public authorities and others that overstepping a person's legal rights will not be tolerated. Furthermore, you should make a formal complaint concerning the conduct of that train operator at Hunters Point, who rudely ordered you to put your camcorder away. You are a customer and should be treated with due respect.
The cop who gave me the summons wrote the following on my summons as the violation: "ATT/PO observed respondent videofilming inside #7 train subway car without the authority from the MTA."
"Furthermore, you should make a formal complaint concerning the conduct of that train operator at Hunters Point, who rudely ordered you to put your camcorder away. You are a customer and should be treated with due respect."
I didn't get the T/O's name or badge number; now I wish I had gotten at least one of those pieces of info. But I do know what train we were on, the head car# of that train, the arrival time of the train at Main, and an estimated departure time from TS (my partner and I got on at GC). Is that enough info to lodge a complaint against the T/O with the TA?
Koi
Jimmy :)
It probably is, but why bang him in for doing what he believed was correct? If his bosses support his actions, nothing will come of it, but if they are looking for a scapegoat, he will be the one to get in trouble for doing what they told him to do.
Tom
Yes, and it helps if you had witnesses. Also, make sure you follow up on the complaint. The information you have is sufficient, as arrivals and car numbers are recorded by system train dispatchers.
I was involved in law enforcement for many years and have a working knowledge of the legal system. From what I've read of your situation, it appears that you were a victim of a *false arrest*, even though you weren't physically taken into custody. I would consult with an attorney to see what legal recourse you have.
Furthermore, you may have a Federal Civil Rights issue here, as photography is a freedom of expression. Just recently in Philadelphia, a subway musician was arrested for the second time by SEPTA Police, for playing his saxophone. In the first arrest, his case was dismissed and he sued for damages. After his second arrest he sued again, and his case was again dismissed on the grounds that his playing was a *freedom of expression*, not a violation of a noise ordinance! I believe he collected over $17,000 in damages, and SEPTA now has issued bulletins to permit subway musicians to ply their trade without hindrance.
Another recourse you have is to take your story to the media, as you may have been a victim of the Mayor's over-zealous *quality of life* issues. Nothing will get a quicker reaction from public authorities than bad press!
Please feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss this further.
BTW, he has a witness who got the officer's name and badge number, so he can pursue it if he wishes.
Jimmy
Jimmy
KOi
He could sue for those damages and a small amount for emotional distress in Small Claims Court and probably would win. However, keep in mind that the MTA could change the rules to make it illegal to take pictures (using the terrorism excuse), and if they are getting sued, they just might do so, not to win that particular case, but to prevent future ones. Remember, a bureaucrat's best friends are rules and regulations, and the answer to any problem is to create more rules and regulations.
Tom
Never mind.
Not hardly.
The Canary Project
I still think putting a canary in a cage in each car like the miners did would be as effective. At the current time, the only methods of detecting toxic agents is to observe the behavior of the geese that are packed in each car.
Atlantic City Dumping Grounds
Book Thrown at 9 Year Old... Boy Ducks
It is not known whether the boy will seek counsel or defend himself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would say that there's prima faciae (did I spell that right) evidence that the grandmother's mother couldn't control her own child and there's probably additional evidence that we can't see indicating that the entire family is unable to control itself so, in my opinion, not only should the youngster be placed in a secure facility where he might be able to be helped, the entire family needs some intense supervision.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or intense sterilization!
(1) UNION STATION
Location: 800 N. Alameda St., Los Angeles Gold Line trains will run on Track One and Track Two
Parking: 1,500 spaces Bus service: MTA, Foothill Transit and Los Angeles DASH buses
Amenities and special features: An “east portal” links Gateway Transit Center, a bus and rail hub, to the train platforms and to Union Station by way of a tunnel. Union Station also is served by the Metro Red Line subway and several Amtrak and Metrolink passenger rail lines.
Theme or public art: The historic 1939 Los Angeles rail hub, awash in vintage tile and exposed-beam ceilings, was designed by architects John and Donald Parkinson in the Spanish Colonial Revival and Art Deco styles.
(2) CHINATOWN STATION
Location: 901 N. Spring St., Los Angeles
Parking: None
Bus service: MTA and Los Angeles DASH bus
Amenities and special features: Half-mile-long “bridge'' over downtown streets; 33-foot-high station platform; an escalator and two elevators; North Spring was widened and repaved, with new streetlights and sidewalks.
Theme or public art: Builders salvaged original cobblestone bricks for use as paving stones for a street-level plaza below the station; pagoda-style roof over the platform; station color scheme of red, yellow and green.
(3) LINCOLN HEIGHTS / CYPRESS PARK STATION
Location: 370 W. Avenue 26, next to the Pasadena (110) Freeway and the Golden State (5) Freeway, Los Angeles
Parking: 91 spaces
Bus service: MTA
Theme or public art: A life-size bronze sculpture of a Gabrielino/Tongva Indian woman gathering river water; simulated leaf prints and coyote paw prints are embedded in the station's concrete, the latter a reference to Indian mythology.
(4) HERITAGE SQUARE / ARROYO STATION
Location: 3545 Pasadena Ave., next to the Pasadena (110) Freeway, Los Angeles
Parking: 145 spaces
Bus service: MTA
Amenities and special features: A “pocket park” near the depot
Theme or public art: 230-foot-long carved stone relief with Mexican imagery
(5) SOUTHWEST MUSEUM STATION
Location: 4600 Marmion Way, near Museum Drive, Los Angeles
Parking: None
Bus service: MTA
Amenities and special features: Seven shade structures on the platform resembling palm trees; wrought-iron Victorian-style chairs; black metal Victorian-style filigree atop the platform canopy
Theme or public art: Blue glass crystals embedded in the concrete to symbolize the nearby Arroyo Seco; three 13-foot-tall tile- covered columns with wings and crowns, pointing to destinations on the Gold Line route: Pasadena, Union Station and the Southwest Museum
(6) HIGHLAND PARK STATION
Location: 151 N. Avenue 57 at Marmion Way, Los Angeles
Parking: None
Bus service: MTA and Los Angeles DASH bus
Amenities and special features: Tracks are embedded into the street surface of Marmion Way; a short metal picket fence separates the northbound and southbound tracks, with a series of river rock monuments linking each fence section
Theme or public art: An 18-foot-tall stone tree and large blue fiberglass illuminated globes
(7) MISSION STATION*
Location:
905 Meridian Ave., at Mission Street, South Pasadena
Parking: None now; 142 underground spaces still to be built
Bus service: Gold Link; city of South Pasadena shuttle bus
Amenities and special features: New lighting, benches, landscaping, a clock tower and decorative paving stones on the station platform; station is across the street from a 67-home transit village under construction.
Theme or public art: A 9 1/2-foot-tall, half-ton bronze statue of a man in full stride, by sculptor Michael Stutz. The sculpture walks atop two granite blocks salvaged from the old Santa Fe Arroyo Seco Railroad Bridge.
(8) FILLMORE STATION
Location: 95 Fillmore St., at Raymond Avenue, Pasadena
Parking: 160-space temporary parking lot with a permanent structure still to be built.
Bus service: MTA and Pasadena ARTS Bus
Amenities and special features: Cast bronze recreations of vintage travel trunks will provide seating on the station platform.
Theme or public art: “Tower,” a 40-foot-tall sculpture of steel pipe and bronze, topped by a weather vane and a wind-speed anemometer, with an illuminated base
(9) DEL MAR STATION*
Location: 230 S. Raymond Ave., at Del Mar Boulevard, Pasadena
Parking: 600-space underground garage for rail passengers
Bus service: MTA, Pasadena ARTS Bus and Foothill Transit
Amenities and special features: Next to a 347-unit transit village under construction. The residential development will have its own 600-space underground parking garage.
Theme or public art: The old Santa Fe Depot, built in 1935 and long used as an Amtrak station, was moved from the site during Gold Line construction. The station, being stored in Central Park, will be restored and made a centerpiece of the transit village.
(10) MEMORIAL PARK STATION*
Location: 125 E. Holly St. at Arroyo Parkway, Pasadena
Parking: Numerous public garages in Old Pasadena
Bus service: MTA, Pasadena ARTS Bus, Foothill Transit.
Amenities and special features: The Holly Street Village Apartments were built alongside and over the Gold Line tracks. The train station also is next to the Pasadena Senior Center.
Theme or public art: 105-foot-long metal images, based on ancient Indian pictographs
(11) LAKE STATION*
Location: Median of the Foothill (210) Freeway, at Allen Avenue, Pasadena
Parking: 100 -space paid, reserve-only parking lot at LAKE AVE Church, on Maple st. in Pasadena
Bus service: MTA and Pasadena ARTS Bus, Foothill Transit and LADOT
Commuter Express: MTA and Pasadena ARTS Bus, Foothill Transit and LADOT
Amenities and special features: Stairs and two elevators
Theme or public art: Cut steel, painted green and mounted against a yellow tile wall, meant to resemble “papel picado” – Spanish for perforated paper – in designs of trees, mountains, the sun and moon; a 10-foot-tall stainless steel “season marker” on the station platform reflects sunlight onto a designated spot to mark the passage of time.
(12) ALLEN STATION*
Location:
Median of the Foothill (210) Freeway, at Allen Avenue, Pasadena
Parking: None
Bus service: MTA and Pasadena ARTS Bus
Amenities and special features: Stairs and two elevators
Theme or public art: Cut steel, painted green and mounted against a yellow tile wall, meant to resemble “papel picado” – Spanish for perforated paper – in designs of trees, mountains, the sun and moon; a 10-foot-tall stainless steel “season marker” on the station platform reflects sunlight onto a designated spot to mark the passage of time.
(13) SIERRA MADRE VILLA STATION*
Location: Median of the Foothill (210) Freeway, at Sierra Madre Villa Avenue, Pasadena Parking: 950-space parking garage for rail passengers, accessible from Halstead Street
Bus service: MTA, Pasadena ARTS Bus, Foothill Transit and Montebello Bus Lines
Amenities and special features: Pedestrian bridge over the Foothill (210) Freeway links the five-story parking garage with the station platform.
Theme or public art: The interior of the 270-foot-long bridge is accented by perforated metal walls, with the ceiling painted a highly reflective shade of blue.
Even though it was dark the entire trip, it's obvious that this will be the most scenic line in Los Angeles, and its success is assured.
The cars are attractive, quiet, with very comfortable seats for transit. The stations are well designed. I can't think of anything negative about this jewel of electric rail transit.
Manhattan-bound trains skip Smith-9, Carroll, and Bergen Sts
Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Tue to Fri, Jul 29 - Aug 1
Does this mean that Bergen Street interlocking is working again? (Presumably, the trains are traveling on the express track between 4th Ave to just after Bergen.)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Cos of the rumours of a returning of the Culver Express
i'm curios if on the lower-level are some renovation works.
The next big service change is not so far away (2004 Manhattan Bridge)
I would think that the V would serve as a daily local to
be equivalent on the Queens side therefore creating the F/v
like the A/C. The G really will remain as a transfer to the
A/c at Hoyt St and would actually fill local servive during
off-peak to maintain F express when it isn't running. Though the
culver line isn't severly overcrowded I would think of F/V
combination on weekdays with G ending at Hoyt st. Weekends would
just remain F all local
Y newyddion da yw bod cyfle i chi gystadlu yng
......and that was really Welsh too. Don't ask me what the heck it meant. You'd think it was the 300,000th post revisited.
To which I say: "Znmry Gbi!"
Michael
Washington, DC
And despite your protestations, the remaining ML's are in much better shape than the WF's, despite their age. Sorry.
David
Maybe not. The biggest problem facing these old cars is the rust problem. Some of this rust is coming from the inside and seeping outward. In order to restore the bodies, the cars would have to be stripped to the bare metal. This would involve remove the asbestos lining, which is very costly (because of the hazards involved); this in the reason the cars are being dumped into the ocean, as opposed to being sold for steel scrap.
There is also the problem of parts. New York subway cars are not like old cars, where millions were sold and there is a demand for parts. Parts for subway cars have to custom-made. When there is a large fleet, it is economically viable to have parts manufactured on a continual basis. When there are only a handful of cars, the costs become prohibitive, and manufacturers probably would not want to continue holding on to the old toolings, anyway.
Railfans are small in number. Subway railfans are a smaller subset. Subways are paid for with taxpayer dollars and are meant to serve the public at large. A program which uses public funds to restore and operate old subway cars to please a small group of people would be considered a waste of taxpayer money.
cool photo at 40th & Woodland
Oh, and when I post about safety in public areas, I get flamed.
Bu, naq jura V cbfg nobhg fnsrgl va choyvp nernf, V trg synzrq.
It has no business here, nor do your contstantly negative posts do any good.
It's good you dropped your e-mail address, as you would be on the recipient list for spam by the inbox load.
It's my killfile for you, as nothing you post is of any importance.
It is your choice to killfile whomever you want, but often Pigs is the only one here who posts accurate, well researched information instead of idle speculation. You would be best to listen to him instead of riddiculeing him.
I'm not going to killfile you, I need to see examples of what my posts would look like if I was stupid and ignorant, and killfiling you would put an end to that.
Is the ramp in the near of 9 Av?
If so, i guess the subway train is running on the West End,
but want runs on the track in the front? It looks used.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/culvershuttle/culver14th.jpg
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?pan=e&mapdata=ULfEtX9%2beHcNdUhiMQgUI34hHLZ48kiGlYQ4DRLDhgoRfTvJJbzciCsdNr%2f8%2fjx2JQEHRZeUTtzoJm8xsOWMNeOE8UuG26LZQXnikIjMtIKbWOgW052%2ffe7rfabmlPqWuU5znNx9xwb9F9OHlKf2N6v%2f217gqk01PxVe%2be4VEjScuesbTK5%2b%2bbsXx6UJO1iJVYyoIny7VOroMkxkY%2fIUteHLZolDotToS5be5dOLmlYMQm6TiPr2KRXPuoW7iK7CJsDOWu3M2uq5BzkOsU3PTP4j0WaVshyTovKJkwWKjg05wape01G%2fMId%2fwpDKsTFhgJuW%2fZcX%2bPTrhpTnx0A5PUndwPzVHvRD7nte9HsCiSLH5CYFZg6tvyWpJwlInKx3
Koi
You were right to be upset. The TA did do things in the wrong order. The Archer line work started in 1972. When they couldn't finish it on the original timetable, service on the El should have continued until the new line was ready. That was certainly a blunder.
But it's all in the past now...
The TA does learn from mistakes, though. The 63rd Street Connector project was done in a way to allow subway service to proceed unimpeded. It was very impressive: a full schedule of trains running even as a main trunk tunnel was widened, ramps dug, sewer siphon repositioned and millions upon millions of dollars of slurry walls created to hold back Queens' trecherous ground water.
It was back in the 1970's that large merchants in downtown Jamaica browbeat the MTA into demolishing the Jamaica El years before the Archer Avenue line was ready. Most of these merchants were long gone by the early 1990's; indeed, it was the decade-long absence of subway service - which they themselves had demanded - that forced most of them out of the area or out of business entirely.
I think the el should have remained open fully until 1985 more for the people who actually lived close to Jamaica Ave and who used the J to commute to/from work. The Hillside Ave IND looks a lot closer to Jamaica Ave on the map than it actually is.
Beyond anything else, what also did in the Jamaica CBD was the fact that the businesspeople felt that they had to do lowest common denominator marketing, neglecting to notice that such marketing doesn't reflect a lot of their community. Sure, parts of South Jamaica are very poor areas, but that thinking ignores communities like Hollis, Addesleigh Park, St. Albans, Rochdale Village, and Springfield Gardens. Those communities are mostly middle class to upper middle class (if not beyond that), the residents are mobile, and were willing to go elsewhere to find what they need. They went to Green Acres to be sure, but also Roosevelt Field, the miracle mile, and a lot of other places in Nassau County. The Jamaica businesspeople have never fully realized that.
Koi
I can personally vouch for folks from Ridgewood shopping in Jamaica,
1955 through 1965. "Karl B" of SubTalk has personally commented to
me, "Everybody shopped in Jamaica in those days", speaking at least
of his home neighborhood of Cypress Hills. He has told me of "Jamaica
Days" sale days, for which the Long Island Press, which he delivered
as a teen, was as thick as the Sunday New York Times. It would be
interesting and relevant to have Karl's comments on this issue of
elevated vs. Archer Avenue subway re : the economic well-being of
Jamaica's central business district (CBD).
When I was last in Jamaica, this past June 28th, Jamaica Center,
Archer and Parsons, seemed to be doing well, as did Jamaica Avenue
from 160th to 168th Streets. It all seemed extremely busy and thriv-
ing, the only drawback being, pedestrian and bus traffic were very
slow due to the sheer volume of people. Two years ago I noticed that
165th Street, between Jamaica and Hillside Avenues, had become a ped-
estrian mall, apparently, again, due to the sheer volume of people.
I have a colleague, born in 1974, who knows Jamaica, now lives in
nearby Briarwood (Jamaica/Van Wyck on the "E" is his home stop)
and remembers the el as a small child, who could offer some insights
into this issue of el vs. subway's impact on Jamaica's CBD.
The area seems to be on the upswing. It'll probably never be a major shopping destination as it was in its heyday, due to competiton from malls and suburban mega-stores, but if all goes well may end up as a sort of super-neighborhood shopping area. Jamaica Station's renovation and the opening of AirTrain may help.
Koi
So I'm mentioning it.
If you're talking about the one between 168th St and 168th Pl on 90th Av., then that's the 103rd Precinct.
Koi
The rebirth of Jamaica as Queens' premier shopping district was a slow process that started with the growth of Jamaica Center as a business hub and transportation center. It took nearly 15 years to complete this slow process, but the dividends are paying huge for residents and shoppers in the area.
It already has, especially the $220 million in minority set aside contracts that went to local firms.
" most customers who will use the AirTrain once it opens, will spur the airport's economy."
And open Jamaica up for conferences. A conference center has been announced by a major developer.
"They won't have time carrying huge pieces of luggage around to stop by the Jamaica Multiplex theater or shop at the hundreds of good stores in the area."
Business travellers often travel "light" and will have that opportunity. You're missing a lot of this picture.
"Most likely places that will benefit, once AirTrain opens are the restaraunts and grocery stores for people who need a bite to eat before boarding their plane. "
In Jamaica, of course.
You have a lot of misconceptions about Jamaica and AirTrain. If you look more closely, you'll figure them out.
I would like to see NYCT revive an extension of the E line along Merrick Blvd down southeastern Queens. Bus and van ridership are at the highest levels ever (thanks to you-know-what got eliminated in 1997), so the MTA better start thinking long range plans for feasible studies on subway extensions to outer Queens, and Co-Op city in the Bronx.
Well, you know the drill: the project has to have a champion within MTA, and/or elected officials, then has to appear on the Capital Plan.
But it can be done. Even three more stops curving beyond Parsons Archer would be helpful. And while we're at it, extend the lower level J to Archer/Merrick or further.
Koi
I figure you could get something significant done for $750 million on the lower level if the community is willing to accept cut and cover. It might even be enough to get one more station on the E at the end of that 3,000 foot tunnel which is now the tail track of Parsons/Archer station.
However, had the TA been willing to pay for separate subway tracks there, or been willing to physically disconnect the ROW from the LIRR service at Jamaica Station and to disconnect it from the active LIRR ROW further south, the FRA would have said OK.
To clarify, the line actually remains 4 tracks for about 2-3 more miles to Lynbrook where the Long Beach line branches off.
CG
I figure you could get something significant done for $750 million
Let's say that's the cost, that wouldn't be so bad if the entire E extension were to be done [I doubt that cost would be for only the E though, including the J would of course make it go up].
Koi
And if the MTA had cancelled the whole project to begin with, then all the money could have been used to finish the 63rd Street line. At the time, that money would have been enough to finish the Connector and a bypass line going express to Forest Hills. The line could have opened in 1975 or 1976, and the Jamaica line would have stayed as is. And the decline of Jamaica would have happened anyway, though maybe not as quickly. You're ignoring the effect of sprawl around it, in the county.
"That way, Jamaica still would have the el (and the decline of the Jamaica CBD probably would not have occurred)"
Nonsense. You're rewriting history. You have no basis in fact for that opinion.
Had the TA not run out of money, the Jamaica line would have been extended further than Parsons and the current service would have opened much sooner than it did. Nobody would have cared about the El at that point (except a few railbuffs who post here, like you). The TA screwed up the timing of the El teardown, and that was very bad for the merchants and riders, but you're inventing a lot that isn't there.
People did care about the subway's integration with the LIRR, and that was a great move. Again, money and timing.
The Archer line's lower level can still be extended, and I bet the Jamaica community would like it too. Stations at Merrick, or Brewer, and beyond. Get your buddies together, write your elected officials, do a petition, and make it happen.
Better than just whining here, isn't it? Up to you.
Many Jamaica merchants were demanding the removal of the "unsightly" El even though they knew that completion of the Archer Avenue line would take years.
Yes, true. In hindsight, though, it might have been better to resestablish subway service.
Plus, consider this: if the TA had spent money available in the '70s to continue building the lower level J service, then the Capital Plan of 1982 would have paid to remove the El and the J would have terminated at Merrick or further, essentially restoring a full length line underground.
There's still nothing (except $$$, of course) preventing the TA from extending the lower level further along Archer.
Don't. Both levels were to have been extended.
Not that I can blame them for that attitude. A merchant who had been on Jamaica Avenue from the `50s surely must have had his heart broken any number of times regarding the state of his business. I mean, going from the premier shopping district of Queens and Nassau to the district of cheapie stores and assorted "services" had to hurt. These businesses were still looking at the results of the blackout riots along Broadway further west, noticing how almost all of their previous clients had long since departed for the hills, and doing business on a street that hadn't seen any large-scale redevelopment in the adjourning neighborhoods that would lead to a greater amount of business in their establishments.
I sure that when the news came that the el was to be torn down most of the business were supremely glad ANY attention was being given to the area. So they eagerly jumped on the bandwagon. If in retrospect it wasn't the best attitude to take on their part, so be it. Any port in a storm still makes a lot of sense. I think that's what the business community was thinking at the time.
Dunno. From what I've heard (I don't have firsthand knowledge), Downtown Jamaica was still doing reasonably well when the El came down in the late 1970's. Sure, many customers had been lost to suburban malls, but the area was still a destination-type shopping area, attracting people from all over Queens and Brooklyn.
A) A sudden uprising of Queens residents and their local politicians in favor of such a service
B) A major politician or MTA official who personally wants it to happen
AND you would need to wait about 2 or 3 decades when the city finally recovers from its current deficit. By the time the current budget crisis is over, you'll run into the pension problem. The MTA's plate is also pretty full right now with the SAS, ESA, and #7 to Javits.
The E/J/Z being extended is probably right down there with the 2/5 to Kings Plaza. Heck, when the MTA takes over Green Lines, Southeastern Queens will probably have better bus service anyway, so then they REALLY won't care about a subway extension.
Different animal altogether. Your comparison may not be entirely appropriate.
If I recall correctly, there is a ground water issue/surface soil altitude issue which would create tremendous engineering difficulties in extending the IRT toward the Flatlands. Some posters here who are TA employees have posted on that topic.
However, I have not written to anybody officially in the know; if anybody has different knowledge of this please chime in.
A similar problem was encountered when the 63rd Street Connector was built. According to the contractor on the project, a lot of slurry walls had to be created to channel water away from the subway tunnel. The ground water mitigation was a very significant part of the project.
The site of the modern-day Vanderveer Park Houses (Foster and New York Avenues) was both the old Flatbush Water Works and the source for the Paerdegat Creek (still is). Meanwhile, Kings Highway's position is where it is because it runs on the northern perimeter of the various Jamaica Bay marshes. Kings Highway passed the source of the Gerritsen's Creek.
Extending a subway into the marshes could be a mess. If I understand it correctly, the TA would basically have to harden some ground with concrete, gravel, whatever, then put a tunnel through it. Do that extensively enough, and federal agencies start to object because you're not just diverting ground water; you're ecologically wrecking the area.
The area is already ecologically wrecked.
Please don't speak for all SE Queens residents. I prefer JWS.
AirTrain may help Jamaica's economy in an indirect manner, by improving the area's visibility and image.
Which is why I suspect that any thought of an E/J/Z extension is basically railfan fantasy at this point. There doesn't seem to be much interest from the residents of SE Queens (save for the ones who post here). More importantly, though, is that much of the revitalization around Jamaica Center has occurred precisely because it is now a major transportation transfer point. If you take that away, you risk another cycle of declining business in the neighborhood and I can't see any politician willing to take the risk of being the guy who killed Jamaica again.
CG
You're misinterpreting the situation, possibly because you're not familiar with the area.
The business community and merchants want more subway service. Residents of Ozone Park want it too, generally, but not as new Elevated service. When AirTrain was under development, 24 people out of 600,000 didn't want it. A very expensive airline lobbyist tried to make more noise by using some very naive people as marionettes (I watched this happen first hand), but it didn't work.
Extending the J along Archer further into Jamaica would be welcomed by merchants and residents alike, especially because a large percentage who live there do not have their own cars. NIMBY would be nonexistent. An extension of the E would have to be done carefully, because you might have some NIMBY as you approach Rosedale, but a subway alignment would take care of that.
SE Queens is not anti-subway. It's a myth manufactured by airlines to fight AirTrain (who spent a lot of money trying to incite racial problems) and by a few loudmouths and NIMBY types who exist in every neighborhood - and by people who like to stick their hands out for the usual bribe.
Why would the airlines dislike AirTrain?
Well, considering I'm in these neighborhoods almost daily and you live in Kansas City I'm willing to put my familiarity with this area -- especially today -- up against yours.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Ozone Park, these are very different areas. Perhaps because you don't know as much about these neighborhoods as you like to portray? AirTrain isn't in SE Queens.
And I was there almost as much as you daily too up till about 2000"
"and you live in Kansas City I'm willing to put my familiarity with this area -- especially today -- up against yours. "
And you'd lose. Your comment about voter turnout is proof.
"I don't know why you keep bringing up Ozone Park, these are very different areas....AirTrain isn't in SE Queens. "
OK. My definition of SE Queens was wider than yours. A lot of people in Ozone Park and Jamaica consider themselves to be part of SE Queens, but you are obviously referring to a narrower slice. That's fine. Understand though, that's not a universally accepted definition, not even in city council.
If you narrow it down some, then we come to a better understanding. I'm glad you said that - that was helpful.
"SE Queen NIMBY" (if you like) would not prevent an extension of the J up Archer Av. That would be NIMBY-free. Extending the E would be possible, too, though in subway configuration, and yes, there would be some NIMBY beyond a certain point. But I could see two new stations on the E beyond Parsons without a major NIMBY issue.
South Ozone Park is the area east of Ozone Park (I know that sounds confusing), running to Sutphin Boulevard, Baisley Pond Park, Rockaway Boulevard, and Guy R. Brewer Boulevard. From that point on, you're in South Jamaica or Springfield Gardens.
When you're older and wiser, you'll do the same.
Ron, go back and read. I made no comments about voter turnout. You mis-read a comment I made to be about voter turnout. 2nd time I've had to point that out to you...
CG
Frankly, I think that Jamaica has tremendous potential to be developed as a satellite downtown, a sort of retro-fitted in-fill "edge city" to use planning terminology. It is actually a relatively attractive place with very good transportation, and even the beginnings of a cultural concentration in the form of the main branch of the Queensborough Public Library.
If NYC weren't so obsessively focused on Manhattan south of 96th Street, places like Jamaica, downtown Flushing, downtown Brooklyn, and even the Grand Concourse/Forhham road area of the Bronx would be far more vibrant business districts.
Here in Chicago, there are many corporations that have moved out of the City to be closer to O'Hare airport. It is not inconceivable that businesses would consider Jamaica as a logical place for operations once the Airtran opens. This would be consistent with the general spread of businesses out of central concentrations, and towards airports. Unfortunately for NYC, in the NYC region this has usually meant moving to NJ, CT, or Westchester. Jamaica could offer an in-city alternative to the out-of-city locations. NYC should actively pursue making Jamaica an attractive business location. But such a view goes deeply against the traditional Manhattan-centric policies of NYC government (and the overwhelming Manhattan real estate interests who control NYC government.)
Usual Peter Rosa bullshit; look at the Bronx look at LIC; look at MetroTech.
"while there's been quite a bit of development in downtown Jamaica, it's been entirely government owned or subsidized."
And the same is true in much of Manhattan.
Usual RonInBayside bullshit. Again you only read the parts of Peter's post that doesn't contradict your always correct views.
Tell me, how much Class A commercial office space has been built in the outer boroughs in the past decade or so, especially compared to (among many other places) Jersey City, the northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, suburban Atlanta, the DFW metroplex ... I could go on and on.
Oranges and potatoes. Show me undeveloped land with no planning, no restrictions, no environmental protection and lots of suburban corruption and I'll show you a trained orangiutan who could cut a deal.
One problem is the lucrative contracts construction unions have been able to insist on in Manhattan are also in force in the boroughs, which can't afford them. The well paid workers, and those who are well paid despite now showing up to work, tend to live in the suburbs.
True about the unions. Another problem is that the outer boroughs have a worse reputation than they deserve, unfortunately bad reputations are hard to shake.
I used to go in Mays a lot with my mother, right up to the time it closed for good.
"On a similar note, my mother also used to take the M train to Knickerbocker Ave to shop there. I was really small then. I remember her taking my other grandmother there with us also. We would walk from Ridgewood to Knickerbocker, shop and eat lunch somewhere, and then take the M Train back (similar to what we did in Jamaica too, except then I remember taking the J train to Jamaica, and the bus back). Now I look down from the M at Knickerbocker Ave, and wonder why it must have been so special to go there, time hasn't been kind to Knickerbocker Ave either, even worse than Jamaica Avenue. Now it's a sea of $.99 stores. (However, at least the stores are occupied, more than I can say of some years past)."
When I used to go to the "Haven" movie theatre near Woodhaven Blvd. on Jamaica Av. in the early to mid 80s with my mother, I would always ask could we take the J train from Qns Blvd. (after taking the Q49 Bus from 168th St to Qns Blvd.) Sometimes we took a bus (from 168th St along Jamaica Av.) all the way to the theatre and other times we took the Q 49 bus to the train then took that to Woodhaven Blvd.
Koi
That pedestrain mall you are talking about (165th st from Jamaica Ave to 89th Avenue) has been a mall AND the city's second largest bus terminal for over 35 years.
If money were available I'd like to see the lower level (the J) of Archer extended further, with a stop at Merrick Blvd (and further) to re-serve the area and help extend the benefits of the line.
I'm glad the El came down and Jamaica Station was integrated with the subway, but the sequence and timing was very poor.
Onward to the future...
Sorry.
I'll admit, the railfan in me is ambivalent on that. There is something appealing about rail transit lines remaining unto themselves. I always did like walking the one block from the Sutphin Blvd. el station to Jamaica Station.
Isn't that often the case?
I agree with that completely. And in 1977 they didn't even have Hylan trying to put the BMT/IRT out of business, when they tore down a pefectly good el, much of which was dual contract el, on Fulton Street. Your statement could hold true for that one also.
I agree with that completely. And in 1977 they didn't even have Hylan trying to put the BMT/IRT out of business, like when they tore down a pefectly good el, much of which was dual contract el, on Fulton Street. Your statement could hold true for that one also.
Maybe other possible projects at the time deserved the money more. But it's easier to modify or improve a line (and Archer Av is a significant improvement over what was there before, except that they didn't extend it far enough) than it is to build a completely new line. And realigning it with the LIRR and extending the E train to meet it was a really good move. It made AirTrain's routing and sighting possible.
If you've never been held answerable to a lot of different competing people and groups, it's easy for you to dismiss the TA's decision out of hand. If you had been sitting in the MTA's board room as a transit executive that day, would you have found the decision to be easy to make? I think not.
Have NYCT take over the Far Rock Branch from Jamaica to Rosedale, cutting it off from the LIRR.
Have the track layout west of Valley Stream rebuilt to allow LIRR Far Rock trains access to Jamaica (ex. flying junctions)
Koi
Koi
Does enough info exist on nycsubway.org to assemble a chronology of
BMT Jamaica el eastern end demolition ? Is there any interest in such a chronology for the Jamaica el, or for any now-demolished el in NYC ?
Here are dates of my last use of the now-demolished stations :
Metropolitan Avenue : mid-June 1984
Queens Boulevard : Tuesday January 26, 1982
Sutphin Boulevard : first week of June 1979
160th Street : never used
168th Street : mid-September 1968, of no help, way before demolition.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/culvershuttle/culver.html
Then took a walk to the Fort Hamilton Pkwy station. There was absolutely no way to enter that station without risking death, one knew it just by looking up at the platform from the street where there was absolutely nowhere to walk unlike at 13th Av where you could still take many steps.
I'm very glad I did it though, was quite fun to do.
I was looking for banker lights to see if the 3rd rail was still energized, but there weren't any. There was no proof (at 13th Av anyway) of whether the 3rd rail was still live or not.
I did use the J line on it's last day of operation at Metropolitan Av (my former home station). I remember going down the stairs for the last time knowing that I'll never do this again. I would've liked to have been a scavenger of the Jamaica Av el. I guess Chris R27/30 that we can claim to have done what the other had wished he had done.
http://www.culvershuttle.com/last_days/pages/001.htm
PS: I don't like enabling JavaScript on by browser
1928 BMT map
1937 BMT map
1967 map
1969 map
1972 map
1972a map
(If you have any of these maps and have the time to scan, I will be happy to post them)
-Larry
http://palter.org/~subway/74-xx-01/
Jimmy
In general, Chicago is a great city. It seems to have much of what New York City does, but with 40 percent of the people (city and region) and 25 percent of the money, so things are less expensive and more available. The lakefront beaches right near the CBD were great -- it shows what a beach on the Hudson could be now that the river is cleaner.
Chicago, however, is much emptier than New York. It is 30 miles long but just a few blocks deep. The area along the lake and lake front parks is built up with high rises. When I took the Green line south to the Museum of Science and Industry, however, I saw lots of vacant lots, abandoned buildings, and buildings in poor repair. I expected that.
But I saw the same thing on the Green line east, including the area around Garfield Park, clearly a premier park -- the low land values and abandonment ended abruptly at the city line. Even along the north shore El, in what I had been told was a wealthier part of the city, there are lots of vacant lots and parking lots in the surrounding neighborhood. Only along the Blue line to O'Hare did I see solid development all the way out.
There is also lots of vacant and underutilized land right next to the heart of the city, something NYC doesn't have. The result, however, seems to be an building boom, something New York also doesn't have.
Heavy Rail: nothing like NYC. Little more than one short (6-7 IRT cars) train every ten minutes at rush hour on many lines, and never crowded, perhaps because the neighbhoods are empty. More trains in the evening rush, and sometimes even at mid-day, than in the morning rush. In NYC, in contrast, the morning rush is more concentrated and the evening more spread out with fewer TPH. While many lines moved along quickly, the north shore El crawled between Downtown and the embankment portion.
Bus: No wonder the buses outdraw the El 302 million to 176 million per year. The streets are two way, and traffic is light, even Downtown even during a weekday, so the buses move -- unlike NYC on every count. And there are lots of specials and expresses. The buses are much more crowded than the trains -- the middle class seems more willing to ride the foremer than the latter. The opposite of NYC. OTOH the Chicago buses stink. Diesel fumes sicken me, and having been in Chicago I appreciate NYC's cleaner buses much more.
Commuter Rail: Didn't ride it, but unlike in NYC it serves the city as well as the suburbs, particularly in middle class neighborhoods. It may be fair to say that Chicago has three competing transportation systems, while in NYC there is no competition -- the subway wins.
Didn't say it should be, but Chicago is the city most like NYC in the U.S., and I'm just pointing out the differences as I see them.
Commuter rail in NYC serves Riverdale, Spuytel Duyvil, Marble Hill, Woodlawn, Williamsbridge, Fordham, Melrose, Tremont, 125th St, Woodside, Jamaica, Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, Flushing, Murray Hill, Bayside, Douglaston, East New York, and other stops I've forgotten about. Is Chicago significantly better at serving areas in the city limits?
There seems to be significantly more commuter rail stops in Chicago in a relative sense, including some in close in residential neighborhoods. In some cases, commuter rail and the El run side by side, though commuter rail has fewer stops. And, of course, the El runs to the close in suburbs in a couple of places.
I tool these photos of the Brown line and the Purple line from the Northwestern line, coming back to Chicago from Kenosha.
Sorry, I just used to live along there, thought I'd note that!
The subway is definately better here, because more people use it. Chicago's neighborhoods and heavy rail system are, in my opinion, underutilized national resources. I hope their building boom rolls on, though much of it is close enough in to walk to Downtown. In fact, there is a fairly long run between Downtown and the first stop in a residential neighborhood. These areas are better served by buses -- I guess they were formerly served by trolleys.
In any event, NY has some things to learn from Chicago's bus system. One route ran direct from the Museum of Science and Industry to Downtown, up Michigan Avenue, then express on Lake Shore Drive to some neighborhoods further out. It ran full. In NYC, in contrast, major destinations outside the CBD -- the airports, Shea Stadium, the Rockaway Beaches, etc. -- are served by local buses that stop every two blocks. Why the M60 isn't a super express line stopping only at subway stops and the airport I'll never know.
I'm not saying buses should run express to Manhattan -- the traffic would kill them there anyway. But maybe some should run express from outer-neighborhoods beyond the subway direct to places like Downtown Brooklyn or Long Island City, where riders could either get off there or transfer to the subway.
I hope that you enjoyed your visit to our great city!
I moved here from the Philadelphia area in 1996. I'm very proud of my adopted home. I'm making it somewhat permanent next month as I'm moving into my own home located near the Berwyn (Red Line) 'L' station.
I question where you saw all of this empty space on the North Side along the 'L'. Most of the space is built up along the Brown Line route north from the Loop. The Main Line (Red Line) is almost all developed except from a stretch in Uptown (Wilson Av - Lawrence) area.
It is true that a lot of land on the South Side is vacant. A developers dream if the vermin that still remain can be persuaded to leave. When one looks at the South Side today along the Green Line it is hard to image that it was once where most of the people lived, as development north of the river was slow until the lift bridges were put into place and the cable and streetcar line service began - prior to the fire.
CTA does operate an extensive bus system using LSD (Lake Shore Drive) north and south. It is enhancing this service in August with new routes. The express bus service to the south side exists mainly because there is no 'L' service in the Hyde Park or South Shore areas of the city. This is one place the 'L' does not venture, but in my opinion should. There was a presence when the North - South Mainline operated to Jackson Park (63rd & Stony Island) - not far from MSI.
In those days the Howard trains operated to both 63rd & Loomis (Englewood - the largest shopping district just behind State Street) and 63rd & Stony Island (Jackson Park). Today, nothing much is left along 63rd Street on either end served by the 'L'.
I agree that CTA 'L' trains are under-utilized. Because of the concentration of express bus service to the east, many potential riders use the bus because it takes roughly the same time as the train end to end. I myself use the bus more the 'L' because it is a five block walk from the Belmont station to my aparment. The #156 bus picks me up a block from the apartment and drops me off at one block from my office at Monroe & Wacker. And I can always get a seat because I use the line close to its terminals.
When I move north, I'll probably use the 'L' again as I'm only two blocks from Berwyn station on the Red Line. The Brown Line will drop me off at Washington/Wells, three blocks from work.
However, it is my opinion that CTA should concentrate on forcing people to use the east-west buses to the 'L' trains for their continued ride to the loop; however, it is somewhat of a "right" concidered by of most CTA riders, especially those who reside in Lincoln Park, to have "one seat" service to the Loop.
No, the 'L' is not packed to the doors as the #4 is on Lexington Avenue. Do we have all the lines we need to make getting around the city easy, no we don't. But the system that we do have works. The Loop 'L' is a great distribution system for the Brown, Green, Orange, and Purple Lines. The Blue and Red Lines connect with the Loop 'L', so the system is pretty good where it does serve.
It is funny you mentioned you felt the buses moved fast in Chicago. It doesn't seem so when the #156 bus is inching up LaSalle or one of the Michigan Avenue buses are fighting curb stop space with taxi cabs.
But once the express bus gets onto LSD the ride is usually quick.
No, Chicago doesn't rival NYC in terms of their subway. But then, Chicago is an 'L' town anyway.
Jim K.
Chicago
"the cable and streetcar line service began - prior to the fire."
Horsecars, yes. Cable, No.
The cable era in Chicago began with the Chicago City Railway's opening on January 28, 1882, after the fire and the first cable installation outside of San Francisco.
North side cable service began on March 26, 1888 with the North Chicago Street Railroad's instalation.
The point I was trying to make is the back in the day, the South Side of Chicago was the more desirable place to live as you didn't need to deal with getting across the river. Today, many view the North Side as being more desirable.
However, there are many areas south of Madison Street that are being developed and people are moving to the South Side again.
Jim K.
Chicago
And indeed when I lived in South Shore the 5 Jeffrey Express was almost as fast to the Loop as the IC Electric but cheaper. I used the IC because I prteferred rail, my grandfather used the bus to his office. Today's Metra Electric offers far less service both in rush and baseday while the Jeffrey Express runs more hours.
New York City has become more competent in the past 20 years. Unfortunately the state is killing us.
One thing Chicago has all over New York, however, is litter. The city is so clean! How do they do it? What a disappointment to come back to New York and see garbage all over the sidewalks. When I go the park and play paddleball, my friend and I first have to spend ten minutes picking up all the trash from the night before.
Perhaps Bloomberg should launch a jihad on litter rather than smoking. And since the city can't afford to pick up after the slobs, perhaps is should try to stop them from littering in the first place.
That is because New Yorkers in general are a bunch of filthy slobs. The Mayor could be friggin' General Pinochet and this city would still look like a landfill.
1) Alleys. Chicago has lots of them, even in the downtown business district. All the garbage dumpsters, utility lines, and garage entrances are tucked away back off the primary streets and into the alleys. Throughout Manhattan and many neighborhoods in the other boroughs, there simply are no alleys. So all the crap naturally gets piled up out on the sidewalk. (One of the reasons Manhattan takes on a delightful aroma around this time of the year.)
2) Machine politics. Chicagoans want their city to be kept clean, and City Hall recognizes that keeping the city clean involves lots of high-paying -- and very loyal -- union jobs. Everybody's a winner, no?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Northwestern Station used to have the NW Passage between Clinton and the station itself. The was eliminated about 10 years ago. Union Station, prior to the Dearborn Subway when the Metropolitan ran on an elevated structure (pre 1951) had a stop at Union Station. The walk from Quincy/Wells to the closest Union Station enterance is roughly two blocks. Walking across the Adams Street bridge in the winter can be quite a frosty experience. LaSalle Street, prior to the demolition of the station, had its front doors on the second floor practically on the LaSalle/VanBuren 'L' station. Today one has to walk 1/2 block south to get to the station platform.
The Blue Line (O'Hare/Congress/Douglas) uses the Dearborn Subway. The Red Line (Howard - Dan Ryan) uses the State Street Subway. Each have continuous platforms, with the Dearborn Subway platform
continuous between Washington to Jackson (with a stop a Monroe in the middle) and the State Street platform continuous between Lake and Van Buren.
Jim K. Chicago
You forgot to mention Jamaica Station (LIRR). Last time I was in New York the 'E' & 'J' stopped there.
As for the A/C on the CTA. Only a small portion of the fleet is non A/C - officially. I've been on some buses that are supposed to have A/C and it doesn't work - and sometimes the windows don't open either.
As I am formally from Philadelphia, I'm very, very familiar with NYC.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
The connection is outdoors, but that will change soon.
Why not? It isn't "indoors," but there is a convenient connection to the 7.
San Francisco is nice, but a quite bit smaller. San Jose CA has absolutely no city feel (even though population is reaching around 900,000), and Los Angeles never had the CBD to rival Midtown, Loop, and Lower Manhattan.
One thing I really miss about Chicago is the Brown Line. I absolutely love the western end at grade line running between alleys with street crossings, and the fantastic view of the Skyline from North Michigan Avenue to the Loop.
Unfortunately I missed the Brown and Orange lines -- you can only do so much railfanning when you are traveling with two little girls. I only got up the Evanston because I was able to take a quick trip while my wife spend the evening at the American Girl store.
Perhaps saying there were vacant lots on the Red/Purple lines was misleading. What may be more accurate is that there were lots of what in New York would be called "soft sites" car lots, fast food restaurants with big parking lots, etc. In Brooklyn, you have solid rowhouses just about everywhere. Then again, I could only see a couple of blocks in from the train. Perhaps the development is more concentrated further away.
In any event, if people want to live or locate a business in a city, and cannot afford New York, Chicago seems to have plenty of land/transportation capacity for expansion. Maybe if Downtown were jammed with Manhattan type traffic, and the buses slowed to New York like speeds, more people would take the train.
And, in the "theory" section of Chicago, the CTA is exploring making a "Subway Loop" (in addition to the "Circle Line") that would use the existing Blue Line subway and add a subway under Clinton (which is immediately west of both Union and Northwestern stations). They've even talked about making it three levels deep: 1st level for busses, 2nd for subway "L", and third to accomodate high-speed rail service to other midwest cities. Whether this will ever happen is still a huge undecided factor, but at least they're thinking about it. I think it would be really cool, and heavily used.
Additionally, the Randolph Street station in the East Loop has direct Pedway access to both the Red Line and the Blue Line - without ever seeing the elements. At least usually. I think parts are closed for reconstruction currently.
Also, I saw the Metra (commuter rail) president speak about 1 1/2 ago and he's a total ass in my opinion (sorry for that interjection), but he said that studies show Metra riders from Northwestern and Union stations rarely work (I think he said less than 5%) east of State Street, so he would oppose increased circulator service (part of my reason for calling him what I did).
:-) Andrew
It took half an hour to get from the loop to the suburbs, so I don't think the lack of expresses has much to do with it.
The fact that the suburbs are so close may be a factor. In New York, if you live outside the city you live way, way out, unless you live in Hudson County which is also urban. So at least some subway neighborhoods are still full, despite high taxes and bad schools. In Chicago, no such tradeoff is needed, so you have high rises in some areas for the young, empty nesters, and other childless, and emptying neighborhoods elsewhere. Thus, less transit ridership, more cars and commuter rail.
But why bus vs. train? That I don't know, except that there are buses everywhere, and many move as fast as trains on the highways, while there are only trains in some places. And the trains are not right on the lake shore, there there is a real concentration of people, but the buses are.
Actually the Metra Electric is directly next to the South Shore Drive in places.
In re earlier comments, Chicago has a long history of massive bulldozing/abandonnement of vast areas. Part of the deal is the still major movement to yet further suburbs/edge cities, with one difference from NY--its all in the same state. One of the more galling to me was the Santa Fe Railway which moved to some disgusting out of town place a decade or so back forcing urban commuters to drive out to the prairie for work. Then of course, the BNSF happened and HQ is Ft Worth.
The Chicago subway/El system is set up similar to that of Boston transit in that all lines converge in the downtown 'hub', which makes transfering to other lines rather time consuming if you're trip originates from 'outbound' routes. Also, you may not have noticed, but the entire Chicago transit system is 100% OPTO (One Person Train Operation). The pre-programed station announcements are much more pleasant than the ones on NYCT's R-142's and 143's.
Since Chicago has a vast network of suburban neighborhoods to both the south and north of the downtown area, there are two commuter rail lines that serves the city. Metra is one and the other is the Northshore Line. Metra is diesel-powered, while the Northshore system is electric (via overhead wire). Both feature bi-level commuter coaches of similar design.
BTW, I stayed with two other railfans at the Crown Plaza hotel which is a beautifully restored historic building located at Madison & Wabash, right on the Loop.
Please visit the Chicago pages on this site. The North Shore died 40 years ago, Metra is the umbrella brandname for the state Regional Transit Authority (MTA) They operate on several routes.
Their electric line includes tenant SOUTH SHORE Line electrics which are single level cars running into Northern Indiana.
Given the short trains and lower crowding I observed, I can see the point of those who say that OPTO in Chicago is different than OPTO in New York. There are least twice as many people on the average New York train.
(The pre-programed station announcements are much more pleasant than the ones on NYCT's R-142's and 143's.)
I agree. Just sounds better.
Missing the Brown Line and Red Line, you missed two of the heaviest-used lines in the city. The Brown Line is at (occasionally exceeding) capacity during rush hour. That's why we're spending $476 million dollars to expand the capacity on the line by a third by 2008 (and at the same time making all the stations ADA-compliant). The Red Line is the backbone of the northern lakefront neighborhoods, and is packed at rush hour and often quite busy until at least 10pm (not always, but often). It's one of two 24-hour lines - the Blue being the other.
One nice thing about the Brown and northern Red Lines (to Howard) is that they are both completely walking-oriented. The Orange Line runs along a freight-rail corridors and through neighborhoods that are very car-oriented. The southern Red Line (to 95th) is in a highway median, the Blue Line past Belmont to O'Hare and heading west to Forest Park is in a highway median. The Green Line has a lot of potential, but you've seen the condition of much of the neighborhoods along it. The Blue Line Douglas branch is currently being rehabbed, but it is in a neighborhood and will likely be heavily used once it re-emerges fully rehabilitated. I simply don't think median or freight-corridor transit works very well because it's not walker-friendly. Sure, it's cheaper, but it's also less convenient, especially compared to busses that stop on your streetcorner.
Rode the red, missed the Orange.
The Red line didn't seem so packed, even at rush hour, though it had the most frequent service and the longest trains.
(I simply don't think median or freight-corridor transit works very well because it's not walker-friendly. Sure, it's cheaper, but it's also less convenient, especially compared to busses that stop on your streetcorner.)
I agree. You are waiting for the train in noise and fumes -- makes you feel line a schmuck. It's a fine place for a non-stop express line or commuter line, no place for a subway.
On the other hand, placing the lines there allowed Chicago to build transit at a time when all the federal money was going for highways. The alternative, in New York, was nothing.
PS: Some MTA pages seems to be rarely updated:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/safety/bike/index.html
There you can still ride the 6 Av Q
It has the simplest fare structure of all. It is free.
Tom
You won't find ferry info on the MTA website because it's run by NYCDOT.
Also:
Identify these interlockings, as I want to know:
RACE
SWIFT
NORTH POMO
RIVER
STOP and PROCEED, STOP and PROCEED, CLEAR, CLEAR
It is on the eastbound track.
Identify these interlockings, as I want to know:
You seem to have gotten them all correct all on your own.
SWIFT: R-Section A, formerly R-HUDSON, Karney NJ, This is the Karney Connection used by Midtown Direct trains b/t the M&E lines and the NEC.
NORTH POMO: R-Raritan Dispatch, Pomona NJ, north end passing siding on AC line, north of Abseacon-Pleasantville Station.
RIVER: R-NJCL Dispatcher, movable bridge over the Raritan Bay just north of South Amboy.
This Webshots photo shows the proximity of the Cherry Hill NJT station to the defunct Garden State racetrack, as the photo was taken from the station platform.
This map only shows the southern part.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/pre67can.gif
North of W4, the tracks merged into 2. The express tracks restarted at a dead-end south of 34th.
On other historic service informations i've found
is also Bway/Lafayette terminal
And the D had a few weekend GO's in 2001 (and probably other years, too) that sent it to 2nd.
The D could always get there from both 6th and 8th.
"This is a Canarsie bound K train.The next stop is Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway!" "Stand clear of the closing doors please!"
Ozzy Zamora
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
A HREF="http://www.johnvillanueva.com/sites/sounds.htmlJohnVillanueva.com
I made some more recordings today, they will be up later tonight.
Jimmy
Does anyone know about DigitalMegaStore.com, 181 Van Dyke St., Brooklyn N.Y. 11231, or Bilibi.com
144 Ave T, Brooklyn, NY 11223, or IbuyDigital.com, 252 Conover St., Brooklyn, NY 11231, or SaveOnDig.com, 1915 E8th St., Brooklyn NY, 11223.
Is there a community of reputable discount electronics sellers in Brooklyn? If so, I want to place my order tomorrow.
Tom
Being curious that you found four photo vendors in NYC I'd never heard of, I went to each of those websites. They list look suspiciiously similiar. Turns out that Ibuydigital and digitalmegastore are on the same IP subnet at the same ISP. (Interland in Atlanta, GA-- That's no coincidence!) bilibi.com and saveondig.com are ALSO on the same IP subnet at a different ISP. So I'd bet you actually have two businesses here each with at least two "fronts".
I've noticed this before with computer dealers especially for laptops. Lots of front ends for the same business. Makes it look like there is competition, I guess. Is it legit? I don't know. Probably. But you don't see B&H Photo running their business with different fronts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those look like residential addresses to me.
One of the people I work with got taken in on a scam a couple of months ago, involving laptops instead of digital cameras. Apparantly the guy I worked with was approached on a subway train while he was going to work by someone with a Sony laptop saying that he could sell my coworker one for $500. My coworker was impressed with the laptop but apparantly said he could only offer $300 - and the $300 was accepted. Apparantly, they got of the subway and my coworker went to a bank machine and withdrew $300, the exchange took place and my coworker got back on the subway with 'a box with a laptop in it'.
I was at work when my very excited colleague arrived carrying a box, telling me about this new Sony laptop he had just bought so I was also right there when he opened the box and found it stuffed full of crumpled newspapers. My coworker was just devastated upon discovering that he'd been taken for $300 for a box full of newspaper balls. I never thought the guy would be taken in by such a blatant scam and I felt really sorry for him because he could ill afford to spend the $300 given the pay rates at our company, much less lose it to a subway scam artist.
I guess the moral of the story is a) don't buy things from strangers on subway trains and b) only by things from reputable businesses.
-Robert King
Dave is right when you consider the zip codes and ISP are the same in a couple of these "fronts".
Baltimore has Ritz Camera Centers, a long-established firm. They also deal in Digital Cameras and accesories.
I would suggest checking with your equivialent LA area firms.
Stay away from the things you posted, they will hurt you in the end and the wallet.
:)
Everyone on that board talks about trains :)
Eating and drinking are not prohibited on NYCT subways or buses.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But 3064T was a loaner bus from Minnesota, and it kept some of its signs from Minnesota.
Here's the standard NYCT sign, also found on the same bus:
Nothing there about eating or drinking.
It's on a Minneapolis bus. I've never seen it on a NYCT bus.
Haven't seen and haven't noticed.
This bus has surveillance cameras. NYCT buses don't have surveillance cameras.
This bus has small windows that flip open. NYCT buses have large windows that slide open.
This bus has a motorized rear door. NYCT buses have Passenger Operated Safety Exit Doors.
This bus has a sign prohibiting food. NYCT buses don't.
This isn't an NYCT bus.
1) Between Grand Central and 14 Street on the 4 and 5
2) Between Times Square and 72 Street on the 2 and 3
Jimmy
The lex express crawls through this stretch during the day time barly beating the 6 local between 14th and GC
Thursday night I witnessed 47 on an A train of R-38's from Broad Channel to Howard Beach.
the 4 &5 trains are actually SLOWER THAN THE #6 during RUSH HOUR
(northbound in the pm)
watch now how the E has supplemental service to 179st
that train is getting too popular
I guarentee that Queens Blvd will again come to a screeching halt.
maybe the E and F should be swapped after 71st
there may be an expansion to southern Queens anyway
The CPW express was a great run when the R-10s ruled on the A.
Koi
I assume you're talking fastest average speed, station to station.
BTW, express runs on the IRT are going to seem faster (I've been told) because of physics and the acoustics of smaller cars, just as riding in a smaller sports car seems faster than a high well-insulated SUV.
The IRT express run from 72nd to 42nd seems faster because the speedometer spits out higher numbers. As I said, I've seen as high as 50. Typical is 44-48.
I haven't seen 50 anywhere else in the system except in river tubes. Have you (in recent years)? How fast does the 6th Avenue run go?
I'm basing my 6th Avenue guess on the fact that it is a straight and unobstructed run. The train accelerates fast, going downhill and roars into W4. Unless, of course, it's been restricted in recent years.
As I had expected, there were no signs posted at Pacific or 36 informing passengers that they had to take an R to 59 to get the N.
I suppose it wasn't all for naught. If anyone has any use for 17 south motors that ran on the R today (plus one light train of R-46's), I'll gladly provide them. It appears that I just missed this R-32 set running northbound when I first started hunting.
As I had expected, there were no signs posted at Pacific or 36 informing passengers that they had to take an R to 59 to get the N.
As usual. I rode the A yesterday and there was NO signs saying the C was not running OR the fact that all E service was running on the 6 Av line then the A was making all stops in Brooklyn & Manhattan. To top it all off all trains were signed for Lefferts Blvd [no Rockaway service?]
The n/b express run from 36-Pacific is quite quick though. I usually come close to 50, but by the time I do the timer is approaching rather quickly.
: ) Elias
But it Should Exist! : )
Would that line really have been that fast?
Sure, why not. Washington City Subways run that fast, and they do not have seven mile, non-stop runs.
LIRR goes that fast between Jamaica and Harold.
These are dedicated lines, without interlockings and with computer controls.
75 mph is EASY!
BTW: The Speed Limit on our interstate goes up to 75 MPH on Friday.
Presently it is 70, but the cops give 10 mph.
Now it will be 75 and a 1 time warning for 5 over, and big tickets above that.
We do 60 in the construction zones.
Elias
I've watched the speedometer and I've never seen anything close on the Brighton.
I tried that on the Brighton sb during the Ultimate Ride and had a lot of trouble getting a 4-satallite connection. I will try it again another day when I can stand at the rfw of a sb and then nb slant.
Someone else has posted numbers higher than the 38 I saw, and I believe him.
I'll keep watching. The speedometers on most R-40's are located in the unfortunate position that, in order to see them from the outside, one would need to behead the T/O. (And that's assuming it's possible to see into the cab at all, which isn't the case on many R-40's or R-40M's.)
Besides, you don't want to have to rewrite the Legend of Sleepy Hollow, do you?
:0)
On the IRT, at least there are still some good ones.
-7 Ave IRT 96-72 (southbound)
-Lex Ave IRT 125-86 (southbound) [was once 86 to 42, before 59 was built]
-Flushing 61-97 (northbound) and 111-97 (southbound)
Reverse railfan it on an R-62a. You'll see things like the Manhattan-bound passing trains, and stations get small quick. You'll get a great sense of the speed by watching how fast the train passes a signal or other object. Blowing through 82nd street, and then 90th street is the best!
It's my favorite line to railfan. Reverse railfanning it gives you a new perspective on riding the express.
Jimmy
CG
Too bad ZIP cars are not available north of Washington.
Both firms are testing the concept of having available rental cars at subway stations in major urban area. You reserve a car (membership and credit check must be done in advance), get the access code, go to the station and go. There's no live person to interact with.
So far I've struck out in terms of finding a national chain location located at the station or even near the station. No such luck either with looking at things like the Yahoo Yellow Pages for local operators -- especially since I'm not familiar enough with the city to know whether or not the addresses I've found are anywhere near the station. (Yes, I realize I can do some mapping online to compare addresses, but I'm pulling an oh-fer there as well).
The short answer is that I'm hoping somebody who travels through there more often than I do can pull a rabbit out of a hat for me by pointing me at something I haven't yet been able to find.
CG
CG
The stations are across the street from each other.
You have just convinced me. I will wait till some time later in the week and pay 90¢ to ride the Gold Line sitting down, rather than try to join the crowds for free rides today. I still remember the crowds when they extended the Red Line to North Hollywood and offered free rides. I don't want to repeat that experience.
Tom
Not for the old farts. 45¢ each way.
Tom
No details on the site yet, but I saw some early proofs. There is at least one photo of every one the 100 Brooklyn PCCs, most in attractive Brooklyn locations and informative text.
Due in the fall.
Slightly on topic - I have a stoplight trim ring from one of the Day Camp PCC's - orange paint. Which car number was it?
Just reserve a copy at the BERA gift shop. It will be in stock when
published.
Also, would you email me privately, as I'm trying to put a name to
your SubTalk handle. I'm there on Wednesday's or for the RT Weekends.
Just curious, as we have three things in common. Members of BERA,
fellow SubTalkers & Brooklyn residents. >>GG<<
Thanks, 8-) ~ Sparky
In all honesty, what follows this is true to the best of my observations but basically just a lot of crap. What is important to me right now is that I had some fun observing the different types of escalators,breaking down the code numbers, searching without success for section B3 and trying to figure out why there was just an up line at the Broadway end of the building. (Even this description is getting technical). The other kick was trying to see if I was being followed while I was riding the escalators and jotting down notes on an envelope.
I need to explain some notation.
The oldest escalators have wooded sides and wooden treads (WoWo).
There are some escalators that have the original wooden sides but metal treads (WoMe)
There are some escalators that have metal sides and metal treads (MeMe)
There are a total of 7 escalator lines in the store, with 4 escalators that go up and 3 escalators that go down.
Each escalator section is identified with either a 2 digit code or a with 1 leter and 1 digit code.
The second digit identifies which of the 7 escalator lines you are on.
Down escalator lines are the even numbers 2,4 or 6
Up escalator lines are the odd numbers 1,3,5 or 7
Let's say you're going up on line 7 and are between floors 4 and 5. That section of line 7 would be labeled 47. The first number indicates the lower of the 2 floors
If you were going down on line 4 between 3rd and 2nd floor, you would be on section 24.
I suppose only the die-hard handrailfan foamers would really be interested in the above explanation.
So let's go through the store and describe the escalators.
The 7th Avenue Building has only 1 pair of up & down escalators. Up line #7 and down line # 6
They run from the 1st to the 9th floors.
From the 1st to 8th floors they are WoMe
From the 8th to 9th floor they are WoWo
In the Broadway Building there are a pair of escalators in the middle of the store.
Up line 5 and down line 4
They run from the Basement to the 8th floor.
From Basement to 1st floor WoWo
From 1st to 3rd floors MeMe
From 3rd to 8th floors WoWo
There is a second pair of escalators in the Broadway Building at the Broadway end.
Up line 3 and down line 2
They run from the Basement to the 9th floor, with one peculiarity. You can only go down from the lst floor to the basement. There is no up escalator in this pair that goes from the basement to the 1st floor.
From Basement to 1st floor WoWo
From 1st to 5th floors MeMe
From 5th to 9th floors WoWo
And finally there is just a single up line escalator near the 34th Street entrance at the Broadway end.
It is up line #1
From 1st to 6th floors MeMe
From 6th to 7th floors WoMe
Jimmy
Jimmy
I thought about leaving without dining after the ride up, being quite concerned that I wouldn't be able to hold my dinner down when we descended... but I managed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
At their "cruising speed", elevators in both buildings go about 20 MPH. (Elevators are technically capable of going much faster, but are limited by passengers' ear discomfort due to the rapid change in air pressure.)
However, I give the edge to the Hancock Center because the elevators seem to have much more abrupt accelleration and decelleration, whereas the elevators in the Sears Tower seem much smoother and gradual. Thus, riding an elevator in the Hancock Center feels either like a rocket or a free-fall (depending on your direction), while in the Sears Tower, you can barely tell you're moving.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Some places like the ultra smooth feeling, others like the 'going there' feeling. With today's AC frequency drives, you can get whatever you want.
High speed stuff is fun because at those speeds, the slow down distances become really big, thus you need multiple speeds for short runs, etc.
Ironic then, that the Sears Tower is all offices, while the Hancock Center is about two-thirds residential. You'd think a residential building would have smoother elevators. (Not that I'm complaining, mind you.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Hey Phil, elevator questions for ya.
1) Why hasn't anyone ever made a Stop cancel button for when one presses the wrong button.
2) Has anyone ever considered a VIP key that turns a regular elevator into an express and can call an elevator from its previously scheduled tasks?
I remember riding that elevator to the observation deck. There was a recorded narration by a woman telling all about the towers, technical stuff. By the time the narration was over, you were there. As you may have guessed, the narration brief !
Bill "Newkirk"
To verify what I just wrote, I went back to elevatortalk and found an A&S thread. I was surprised at the initial post in the thread, because I reported that there will still operators in the elevators. That statement turned out to be not true as when I went to A&S I discovered the elevators were automatics.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elevatortalk/message/49
To make this (somewhat) subway-related, what year did the direct entrance to the basement level of A & S from the IRT Hoyt St station (2,3) close?
Once in a while, I use the Hoyt St station after either shopping or looking around on Fulton Mall and I don't really see an area where an elevator could have been placed.
Was it on the Brooklyn-bound platform?
It's a Macy's now. They put up a plaque out front in rememberence of the old A&S. I haven't been on the elevators in there.
Damn, there are days when I dreamed for those good ol' days back...
Incognito
Jimmy
NO!
May all but 10 of those who perished there rest in peace.
Tourist elevators IIRC had
()107
()*44
() 2
()* 1
()B1
The museum down below was much more interesting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And if they weren't the cause of SLCC going out of business, they should have been. Miserable little things!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By the way, Friday I ate dinner in Berwick, PA, which was the former home of which famous carbuilder?
Jimmy
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Check out the men's room in the basement for another glimpse of taste and style. I love the wash basins. Water flows over a ledge into them, almost like a little waterfall. I think the Tribeca Grand is one of the classiest spaces in the city.
Jimmy
Even better than that, there's a lounge on the 45th floor, with an express glass-pod elevator from 3 to 45.
Bill "Newkirk"
Jimmy
Elevators...vertical conveyance, trains...horizontal conveyance, that means escalators are diagonal conveyance ?
Bill "Newkirk"
What if Macy*s replaced their "woodies" years ago, there would be no interest. Since they still exist, that's fodder for a new interest for us enthusiasts. The best part is, you don't have to pay a fare, it's free !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Re the later post about whether this is a Subtalk topics: I'm doing my best to pick elevators that have literal or psychological horizontal movement in them.
He also designed a third hotel at Peachtree Center, the Westin Peachtree Plaza Hotel, which is a 76-story dark glass cylinder. It has a pair of glass express elevators that climb up the exterior of the building to the revolving restaurant on the 76th floor.
I once visited another cool revolving restaurant in New Jersey, but it was in the basement...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Jimmy
Modern elevators in a building with multiple elevators do not go to rest at any particular floor. They usually have three modes of operation set by timers, as an Up-Peak, Down-Peak, and Off-Peak. During Up-Peak, the elevators will return to the main floor when they can, with some of them bypassing floors where passengers are waiting to board. Down-Peak, the cars do just the opposite, returning empty to the upper floors. In Off-Peak mode, at least one car is on the ground floor, and the others stay where they stop on the other floors, but if more than one is on the same upper floor, one of them will move to floor that has no elevator nearby.
Tom
However my dorm building in Albany, an absolute DREAM. 3 elevators, homing on B, 6 or 19, 13 (the floor above mine). Moves at a swift speed of 1 floor every 1.5 seconds from B,M,1 to 21. Transfer to stairs to get to 22nd floor penthouse. Door closes instantly after pressing ANY BUTTON, and after 2 minutes of door holding the sensor shuts off and the door attempts to crush anything in it's path while beeping like a banshee.
And of the 3 elevators in my building, all have different "features" that work and don't work. #1 has a working digital sign floor indicator and bell when passing each floor, #2 has a floor arrival chime and directional arrow (both in the down direction only), 3 has the floor arrival chime working in both directions (different timing, instantly for up and after 3 secs for down) as well as the bell for passing each floor. So #1 was easy to tell what floor you're on, #3 you could tell by counting dings, and #2 you needed a psychic as no bell and the digital sign shows a random patterns of dots.
Without the subway I needed an outlet for my nitpicking at differences, the elevators were perfect.
360k sound clip of Elevator #3 from Basement to 12, plus me standing in the hall listening to it continue it's trip up.
The other elevator was even simpler. It had a different gate system, and no levers or call buttons. All it had was a rope that you pulled; you pulled it one way to go up and the other way to go down. I don't remember how you stopped it though. -Nick
If you don't want to educate yourself, then don't complain when you can't succeed in society.
Money is not an excuse, there are financial aid packages and part time classes at a community college do not consume much time or much money.
-Re-instate ferry service to Pier 11(Downtown Manhatten). Express straight to downtown, and local having stops at La Guardia airport and E34th st., then on to Pier 11.
-Electrify(as much as I hate doing it) OB line to Glen St., then build branch off OB from Glen St. to ferry terminal. Electrify to ferry terminal. Increase service on OB line to ferry terminal, leave current service to OB as is.
-Re-open Wheatly Hills and Mill Neck stations.
You and me both brotha! Atleast until I get my Kenworth W900L!!! Even when I do get my rig, most of the time, I'll still use the bus/train, and maybe even by then light rail!, or walk/ride my bike.
"I'd rather see Glen Cove rd replaced with a railroad!!"
A bit too far? IDK, a trolley/light rail line down it though would be great though. I've also designed a rail line that either parallels or goes over Northern BLVD. It runs from Syosset Sta to Manhasset Sta. Add the extension to Riverhead and you've got a line from Shea Stadium to Greenport baby! Also, since it meets with the OB line, it's only natural for an OB-Manhasset line to be built also. It would greatly help riders along the OB line area, since they always flock to the PW line.
"There are plans to include the Oyster Bay line in some kind of north south RR corridor for Nassau county, connecting it to the West Hempstead branch or something and running it to Long Beach. That would be great! Its all in the LI Press newspaper. "
Actaully, it was a light rail line :( from OB to Valley Stream. I'd rather a regular commuter rail line. It would go from OB to mineola, then use the abandonned ROW between Mineola-CLP-West Hempstead to reach the West Hempstead line. Then it goes to Valley stream via West Hempstead line. At Valley stream, it uses the old eastern spur to use the Far Rockaway line to Far Rockaway without having to do any reverse moves. This would get so much ridership!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
VIVA LA GREYHOUND BABY!
You think the power outs where you are are bad, yeesh. You'd hate PW. Ever since they put that new cable in from the plant, under the harbor, under beacon hill, under the church, and IDK from there...there've been massive power outs. The worst one, 5.5 hrs no power
Suffolk P.D. would do the opposite. They'd dispatch four or even five units to the scene even though just one could handle it. And it's not as if all the cops would be directing traffic, either; as you saw in Nassau, traffic would be backed up hopelessly.
The city government, one of only two in Nassau County (Long Beach is the other) helps to assure that services aren't overlapping, and may help to keep taxes down. Certainly the home-rule assures good services (such as snow removal.) And that's nothing to sneeze at! Living in the unincorporated Hamlet of Levittown in the gigantic Town of Hempstead assured that it was more than a week after the blizzard of 1995-96 'till my street was cleared!
I concur that the Oyster Bay Branch should be electrified. I also concur that ferry service should be reinstated to Manhattan. I'd consider also adding a high-speed ferry to Mamaroneck or Rye. Glen Cove would really take off if it were on the way to somewhere, and provided a decent alternative to NYC.
:-) Andrew
There are some rednecks who lament the "decline" of their neighborhoods by saying: "The only people milling around downtown are usually groups of gangsta n_____s :-("
Well...there's always just so much that can be done, ever. Sometimes you can push, other times you can pull. Sometimes it just stays there no matter what you do. I think there are many other areas in Nassau that could use such planning efforts. For one, Hempstead Turnpike. It, along with Merrick Road are probably the best examples of how a suburb can "organically" assume urban characteristics. I.E., both are pedestrian-friendly commercial/retail/office corridors that are flanked by middle class homes. (And I like how the surrounding residental areas all have sidewalks. It's very pleasant to be strolling along the Turnpike and take occasional forays onto the parallel residential streets. Those side streets have remained in good shape. And the dichotomy of being a block away from the busy road yet walking past neat yards and shady trees can be refreshing.) Served by bus, or walkable distance to train stations in the case of Merrick Road. Major revenue producing arteries.
To let these corridors decay will have a larger effect on the County as a whole in comparison to the problems of Glen Cove and environs. I'd rather see more attention devoted to Hempstead anyway. The location is more central, it's much larger in population and scale. And there's also the issue of how Franklin Ave changes as you walk south towards Hempstead Village from Mineola. THAT is simply amazing. Franklin Avenue is the most urban street in Nassau County. I have no hard data to prove that. It has always seemed that way to me. The N40/41 service on it is pretty city-like. It's a good walking street.
...by which I meant an alternative to the indirect route through NYC that you have to use to go between Long Island and the rest of the state. An Oyster Bay-Rye Tunnel would do the job much better, but a high-speed ferry is better than naught.
:-) Andrew
And any Oyster Bay-Rye Bridge would do the job better than any tunnel.
:-) Andrew
Although I believe that every line should be electrified, electrification is far from the panacea you think it is. Look at the West Hempstead Line.
“ferry service should be reinstated to Manhattan”
With an express to pier 11, and local stopping at La Guardia and 34th st, then pier 11
“I'd consider also adding a high-speed ferry to Mamaroneck or Rye. Glen Cove would really take off if it were on the way to somewhere, and provided a decent alternative to NYC.”
HELL YEA! I say car ferries from Glen Cove to Rye, Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, and New London. That’s how ya get cars off the roads!
“Perhaps we could hire Nimbykiller to do some "dirtywork"! :-)”
I’m all ears!
“area of Roslyn near the viaduct is an eyesore. A revilatization was planned quite a few years ago involving a Stop and Shop supermarket, but was stopped once again by the NIMBY's, Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor the main troublemaker.”
You mean the historical district, or the pretty much abandoned area rite along the bridge? If you mean the 2nd one, it could be because of the really soft/marshy land. But yes, something could be built there, hmmmm. Screw the stupid coalition, Hempstead Harbor looks like and is s—t. Maybe, just maybe, wen they get those damn barges outta the water, then maybe I’ll have some respect for them. Were they against ferry service?
“Foxwoods ferry was planned how Sea Cliff was "up in arms" about the supposed noise. Well the ferry is running and no one hears any noise.”
The ferry to foxwoods is still running!? SWEET! How much? Now I might be able to save money on my trip to New Hampshire(hard to do though since its only 40 bucks RT Port Authority, NYC to BOS)
“To let these corridors decay will have a larger effect on the County as a whole in comparison to the problems of Glen Cove and environs. I'd rather see more attention devoted to Hempstead anyway. The location is more central, it's much larger in population and scale.”
We can’t build on everything. We do need some natural looks for LI. As for Hempstead, I agree. It also has a lot more buses goin there, A LOT!
“An Oyster Bay-Rye Tunnel would do the job much better”
You’re right about OB-Rye tunnel for one thing. It could extend the cross Westchester rail line to LI. Imagine that! Oyster Bay or Mineola to Stewart Airport via LI Sound, NOT NYC!!!! As for the roadway part of it, I’ve got plans for that drawn up too(as much as I hate roadway expansion, I think this one is a good idea, along wit possibly Wading River-New Haven bridge). I-287 continues to Glen Cove. Once in Glen Cove, there are exits to Port Washington(West Shore Rd. to be exact) and Some major St. in Glen Cove. Then, it continues to the Seaford OB Expressway, where they connect and you get the picture from there.
You’re right about OB-Rye tunnel for one thing. It could extend the cross Westchester rail line to LI. Imagine that! Oyster Bay or Mineola to Stewart Airport via LI Sound, NOT NYC!!!! As for the roadway part of it, I’ve got plans for that drawn up too(as much as I hate roadway expansion, I think this one is a good idea, along wit possibly Wading River-New Haven bridge). I-287 continues to Glen Cove. Once in Glen Cove, there are exits to Port Washington(West Shore Rd. to be exact) and Some major St. in Glen Cove. Then, it continues to the Seaford OB Expressway, where they connect and you get the picture from there.
Uh...You may need a refresher course on North Shore geography there. Glen Cove is considerably west of Oyster Bay, and Port Washington is a few miles (and a harbor) further away than that. The proposed route is from Rye to Oyster Bay then continuing southest through Oyster Bay Cove and Syosset before hooking up with the existing NY 135. The route wouldn't serve Glen Cove directly, but if there were an exit in Oyster Bay (say to NY 106 and/or the route through Mill Neck) that would still go a long way towards making Glen Cove less isolated. It would do nothing for Port Washington, which is isolated in its own way (in the middle of Manhasset Neck.)
Should the bridge or tunnel ever get built, I think it should become part of I-86 (by multiplexing it with I-87), thus taking that route all the way from Lake Erie almost to the Atlantic Ocean.
:-) Andrew
My plan still connects to 135
--Mark
A wooden eclinator.
There is another store in Manhattan, possibly a bath and bedroom store with the same thing. The name escapes me, but I know it's in Manhattan because I saw it myself. I guess you can call it a cartcalator !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hahahahahaha, geez, now I heard everything! If I hadn't seen it myself, I would never have believed that it existed! There IS something for everyone on the internet. I thought I saw it all when I found out there were air raid siren forums (and people willing to spend hours talking about them) when Brian posted that photo some months back of the air raid siren at Sutter Ave.
Talking about the subways for hours on end doesn't seem quite so strange anymore!
ECLINATOR is the word.
Maybe we can combine two events. Have a "mobbing event" on the 9th floor of Macy*s of us SubTalkers, and ride down all nine floors of woodie heaven and leave.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wood escalators? Bring your matches and lighters and STAY HOME.
I'm having a great time now that I've retired from reality...
--Z--
You are a complete idiot.
Go to flamers school so you can learn how and when to flame and stop making an ass of yourself.
Nuff said, SpoonBoy!
Have A Nice Day
I'm Sir Ronald of McDonald and henceforth I will be calling you an idiot.
Sounds like someone forgot his blankie.
Looks like someone didn't read the O.P.
My comment stands.
There are 2 banks in the 7th avenue building, you missed the one near 7th avenue.
Peace,
ANDEE
My entire body, from head to toe feels as if it's been grinded into
a cement floor and scrubbed repeatedly... I think back and realize
it's not everyday you commit such an accomplishment (having video
to cite from)..
I still recall our running for trains during the overnight,
the leery eyes of the morning rush hour onlookers, the many
S/A's whom conversed with us and accomodated us with lavatories.
I roll in hysterics each time I remember Kool-D having a SEVERE
case of ballerina toes as he mindlessly loomed towards the OPEN automated
gate when the S/A at 207 dangled the restroom key in our view..
And later, some alienated N passengers mistaking Kool-D for homeless
seeing him sprawled out on the seat of a train... bare belly-up.
I remember the things we did to make the time pass... trying to
throw one another into the arms of a waiting turnstyle... making
verbal bets on who'd be the first to nod off zzzzzzzz... and hitting
the pavement hard as we ran marathon-style "up and across" numerous
Brooklyn overpasses...
The ride on the 1 was sentimental to me, as well as heartwarming.
Standing at the (3 by 5) window going uptown 42 to 242-VCP was
interesting and placid. Most the tension and frustrations we'd banked
up over our 45 minute layover at 65th Street had faded by the time
we got rolling (positively) again.
Toothbrushes & Deodorant at 3:30 am at VCP. Priceless.
Choo Choo and Greenberger joined us for about 9 hours into Friday AM.
Photographing and sharing in our trip.. RIPTA42HopeTunnel joined us
again as we made the final trip back downtown towards our finish.
Seeing the sunset over the Rockaways was a sweet moment and brings back
warm memories of our long, strenous, and challenging journey...
Having breakfast on the redbird 7 train to Flushing and the pizza
on the Q from Brighton were each and all a comforting and serene "outside" meal.
As we approached the final stop, fireworks went off in the distance
at Coney Island.... I can imaginarily assume those were for us...
and I'm sure we were all expecting a jubilant "hooray we did it"
jumping up-and-down celebration at the end of it all.... but really
all we really really wanted was our own beds and home.
I AM SURE THERE IS MUCH MORE INTERESTING DETAILS TO SHARE..
OTHERS WHO WERE ON THE TRIP WILL ADD THEIRS MORE ONWARD...
We all meshed very well from the start-- so we knew early we were
gonna have good and enjoyable company.
The S/A at Lenox wished us well as we began the trip and
was very generous with the BR key each of the 4 times we asked
for it during the half hour spent waiting for members to arrive.
Gracious, ........eeeeeeeeeeexcept the 5 different TA personnel
whom confronted us for videotaking.... and put on a face of utter
defeat when we presented our permit. (Yes, boiz.. there IS such a
thing as a video permit).
Aaaaand the questioners were:
-Tower at New Lots
-S/A at Broad Channel
-C/R on the inbound L train
-Cops at 7th Avenue on the F
-F Shuttle Bus Driver (at ending)
Jimmy
-4 Nutrament
-1 Powerade
-2 Water
-2 Energy Zone Power Bars
-4 Dannon Yogurts (dunno why this was amusing to cameras)
-10 Hamburger Buns (made mini sandwiches on the W)
-1 package Sliced Ham
-1 Altoids (Kool-D & his breakfast Tuna sandwich)
-1 Kingston Trolley Museum patch on the cover
-1 T-shirt of the 1 line (worn when we ran the TSQ-242 leg)
Stock up, brah!
OK, how did you go about getting the video permit? I sure would like to have a permit to show any TA employee who asks especially a T/O like the one on the 7 to Main Jimmy and myself were on when I go on another Subway railfan trip. According to the MTA's website, you shouldn't have needed a permit to do video, but I know you're glad you had that permit given that 5 TA employees questioned you about taking video.
Koi
You have to read the web site again. That was exactly the type of photography that required a permit, and the only type that permits are granted for. It was a commercial project using ancillary equipment, not just simple photography for personal use.
Tom
Do boom mikes count as ancillary equipment? There were no lights or tripods.
Yes.
Tom
Koi
I think the C/R on the L was taken aback by the two cameras that he saw pop out the doors at each stop.
What happened at 7th? This must have been right after Brian and I left. Did you catch the next train or was the film crew still MIA?
The crew got back 10 minutes after you both left, and there was
still another 25 minutes before the next train showed up...
Remember those 4 "biker" guys we passed by on the platform??
Well, 2 of them were..... were COPS... and they hung around
the base of the stairs near us until the crew returned and
approached them asking to see a permit.
Once they matched the name on the permit to a photo ID, they left us.
It was nice to finally be able to put a face to the name... now I
see how you manage to get some of your "shots".. :)
I was clearly up MOST the night and slept prolly not more than
25 minutes on the D inbound at 6 am... thanks to Kool-D
making that tuna sandwich on the bench behind me, I totally
lost interest in sleeping--- the tuna smell was bitter (especially
first thing in the morning...)
Oh, and don't ask HOW he drained the water from the can.... LOL!
He pulled out the can opener on the D train at 6am and
put down his materials on a north-facing bench... crank open
the can and he drained the water from the can by OPENING
THE TOP SLOT OF THE PANORAMIC window and tilting the can
downward onto the window until *ALL* the water/oil went
drizzling off sideways into the exterior doorframe/panel
(we were in a tunnel).
He then began to spread tuna on what looked like a bagel...
Sleeping in the next bench became impossible after the can opened.
That tuna musta' been stored for AGES!!!!!!! LMAO.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! I knew that would happen!
I was sleeping on the south-facing bench of that very seat... :m
All 22 mins of snooze I got went BYE-BYE after the can opening.
You could have bought that new tuna that's packed in a plastic bag. It's boasted as an alternative to draining tuna since when the bag is opened, you just shake out the tuna onto sandwich bread. This is true !
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't worry, I won't ;-). But tuna fish at 6am, geez I'm not surprised that you lost sleep form the smell.
When we got off the D at 161/River and entered into a (surprisingly)
bright mezzanine and into the (handicap access) elevator up to the
4 platform...... when we hit street-level going up the elevator and
saw DAYLIGHT break into view.... We all drooled over the brightness
of the blue sky and bright clouds which now were in our eyes.
At 6:25 am, the 4 platform was bustling with people and we all began
to feel optimistic.... setting out to bust the 4/5/6/7 lines
in consecutive order while the morning rush settled in in the seat
next to us...
I'll never forget coming out of the gloom of our dreary and
headway-tainted overnight segment and coming up in an elevator
to see BRIGHT %$#%#$ DAYLIGHT....
I think the camera captured my facial reaction to that...
Conquering the 1/A/D/4/5/6/7 had to be the most CONSISTENT (and really
uplifting) way to boost us up from that discouraging segment we had
(where we spent more than 1 hour sitting around arguing at 65st
and later on the F 7th Ave. station)
The crew insisted we catch a REDBIRD on the 7 train, and we got plenty of those (even 9577 with it's WF Blue window frames).
:)
I'm glad that worked out. And you got one of the Amtrak rehabbed cars! I want to ride one of those. I am going to have to do that this week.
We got a whatty-wha?? : Q
F me.. I know my lines and my car types...
but I sure hell don't know my car specifics..
Should I have said "we walked *through* 9577 on our way to the
RFW on the 7 back to NYC.."
R30 got a pic of those blue panoramic frames..
(Translation: Where the @#$@# are the 6 others from my Alcatraz group??)
:)
Dude, it is 3:41AM! I should have been sleeping hours ago. Even my cat is asleep. Tomorrow I have to drive my sister back to camp out in the country (mmm, desolate county roads and winding curves) and then help my grandfather transfer photos off his new digital camera. Time for bed. I'll be back later on today.
Guess I'm the first of the group to play "Meet The Press"...
1SF9
Still wondering if I still love subways... ; )
That will coincide well with my planned uploading of many more of my 180 photos taken during the 9.5 hours I was on the Ultimate Ride.
I can do it from my cell phone for 10¢/message... cumbersome, but in an emergency... perhaps that's his technique?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was simply enjoying the ride and views, and like Choo Choo
said "I was the calm one of them all".
Rumor has it Metropolitan Av. has the best in the system...
Sorry, we didn't need to make any "deposits" there.
Tho, when they told us "friends can visit you and bring you food"
we all turned to Choo Choo and Greenberger (in the nosebleed
sections of the roof) and (seeing visions of a turkey buffet underground)
pointed at you brahs and asked "Weinberg, Greenberger-- Got plans?"
Who cares about the clean ones? Give us some details about ones that were filthy and poorly equipped.
That's all it is, a rumor.
The cleanest public restroom I've found in the system is at Queensboro. It was even stocked with paper when I used it.
Two of the filthiest ones, Stillwell and Roosevelt, are closed for construction. Unfortunately, they were also two of the most reliable ones, rarely locked up. A filthy restroom is better than a locked restroom.
The 207 key shone brightly in Kool-D's eyes so much so he literally
bounded towards the Automated Gate like a ballerina... FORGETTING
for a split second that a foot through the gate meant his elimination.
He stopped a damn few CENTIMETERS before reaching the gate and
let the camera crews retrieve the keys--- as was norm.
Close call... had he been eliminated.... new leadership.
Jimmy
I used bumper blocks for my train layout that were made in England.by Hornby. In those days the Hornby bumper blocks looked a lot like those used by NYCTS on the els in Brooklyn, and they were cheaper too.
Those weren't bumper blocks, they were buffer stops!
("Divided by a common language")
Jimmy
Click here, its on the R44
On 16 October 2002 WMATA fired up the substation in the yard and energized the third rail.
I could not find any information or press releases at www.wmata.com informing of the date when the yard was to be put in operation. Apparently this final project that completes all of the facilities of the planed system happened without fanfare.
I went past the yard this afternoon (26 July 2003) around 1915 EDT to check out the progress of the yard and noticed that the yard was in operation. Roughly 24 car were parked on the stub storage tracks, most of them appeared to be 5000 series CAF cars. Last time I was by the yard back in February to check out the progress the yard had not yet opened.
John
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Go to Greater Cleveland RTA webpage under Waterfront line for desciptions and photos.
I headed out on my bike this morning, leaving my place at about 6 am or so. First I headed out to Callowhill Depot at 58th and Vine. I was amazed by how small the depot was, I find it hard to belive that that building, covering little more than a block, supplies all the bus routes I commonly use. I'm also confused as to how SEPTA plans to rebuild or replace Callowhill, theres virtually no available land around the depot. Really I was looking for the new PCC LRVs that the 15 is getting. They aren't there, or if they are, I missed them, but the maitenance bays for the trolleys are coming along, it was clear that they'd just been painted, the rolling doors were propped open maybe 6 inches. The windows were filthy, so I tried a shot under the door, which just barely came out. The bay didn't seem that big, I'm confused as to where 18 PCCs, as well as however many K-cars the 10 trolley uses will be stored there. Before leaving I took photos of the new electrical substation that is on the Northeast corner of the depot, I'm assuming that this is some of the equipment to be tested when the 15 is run at simulated load on Aug 24th.
Upon leaving Callowhill, I could have easily gone home, but instead I headed up 58th St to Girard St, where I turned east for the Schuykill River. It doesn't look like any work has been done on this section of the trolley, although there does seem to be quite a bit of semi-reserved ROW down the median. I wandered up toward Zoo interlocking off 38th St, where could you get a good look at the backside of Zoo tower and all, if it weren't for the fence Amtrak threw up. I did take a picture of a piece of Loran rail equipment, labeled DC-5, I have no idea what it is.
After that I headed down Girard, across the bridge, and down Lemon Hill to Kelly Drive. I managed to dodge my way across Kelly Drive, to the bike trail, where I rode up the river to Hunting Park Ave. Along the way I stopped about 7am or so, to watch the geese, rowers, and a CSX train crossing Columbia Bridge. Heading up Hunting Park Ave, I made it to Allegheny, where I discovered that my back tire was mostly deflated. I stopped at a Getty at Clearview and Hunting Park, tried to put more air in my tire, but I think I made it worse. After that I rode down to Allegheny Depot, but was dissapointed to see that it was almost entirely covered, it was impossible to see most of the Neoplans there. I wandered back down Clearview to the Getty to try filling up my tire again, this time at least it seemed to take air.
At this point I pulled out my map, either I could go down Allegheny to Ridge Ave, which would take me to Falls Birdge, which would make an easy route back down West River Drive to the area around Drexel. However, i realized I wasn't too far from Midvale, so what the heck, I head for Midvale, right up Hunting Park. It took less than 10 minutes to reach Wissahickon Drive. Sadly you can't see anything from Wissahickon outside of the heavy equipment yard. So I rode up to Roberts Ave, then down that street, under Roosevelt Ave, to where the entrance to Roberts Yard is.
From that area you can look right down into the Midvale Bone yard, which is full of old Neoplan rigids, some Volvos (I think, they might have been more Neoplans), and lots of Trackless Trolleys! There were tons of AMGs just sitting there waiting for SEPTA to turn the wires back on! Also Septa Silverliner 266, the catenary inspection car was sitting in roberts yard next door. Down at the other end of the yard was the Reading work car and stuff, but I couldn't really see those.
After I left Roberts Yard, I headed further down Roberts Ave, to Wayne Junction. At first I was going to head down Clarissa St to see what I could see from there looking into Roberts and Midvale. However, I got distracted by the overhead from the 75 trolleybus, which at the time I could not figure out what it was. I also watched a Neoplan whine down the 23 trolley, right over the rails, under both overheads, disgusting.
i was going to ride home, but SEPTA has a real easygoing bike on train policy, so I walked upstairs and shelled out three bucks to ride an R1 airport train to University City. It was great, I rode at the back of 331, with a view into the engineers stand and out the back window. I could watch the Speedometer, Cab Signals, Ammeter, and Brake gauges, as well as see the radical difference between the new Center City connector tunnel by Market East and the much older Suburban Station Tunnel. I got off at University City Station, and watched two Amtrak trains on the NEC behind some ballast cars. After that I raced Silverliner IV 455 on the R2 as it followed my R1 train out, I won on the downhill run, but as soon as I headed uphill, I lost it.
That's pretty much the end of the transit part of the trip, after that i stopped at the bank and grocery store, then raced NABI 5017 down Spruce St by 43rd St. Hope you enjoyed my little trip report, there will be a few horrible pictures to follow.
That was a great place for railfanning back in the day, especially when minor tresspassing was tolerated.
Broadway Limited headed for the Pittsburgh Subway, running nonstop from North Philly to Paoli
Bankers Special headed for 30th Street
caboose-first work train
Thanks for taking pics back then!
Here's Callowhill Depot:
Really bad shot of the interior of the LRV Maint bay
One of the Substations I assume will be tested 8/24
Riding down Girard:
NABI 5007 on the 15, soon to be replaced!
At Zoo Interlocking:
Wierd Loran equipment, 'DC-5'
Here's Midvale:
Visible here are some old Trackless Trolleys
Another Shot of the ETBs in the Boneyard
Yet another photo of the boneyard
And Heres Roberts Yard:
Roberts Yard Seen from up on Roberts Ave
I swear the closest Silverliner is 266!
Very bad shot of another SEPTA Silverliner
And whatif all who start finish?
Then who gets the 4:20?
Dude, this WAS/IS a reality show.
Was the camera IN FRONT or BEHIND us??
I don't remember the curses...
But I did fear elimination when Kool-D marched to the tower at
Hoyt-Schermerhorn to complain over a train having left us...
For better ratings, they probably would 8-). But I'm sure that it was the fatigue that got to y'all.
Thanks in advance...
Tim Frost
Nearbug Valley TA
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
The cars are built by Siemens in California. There are windows into to the driver's compartment, and thus through the windshield, but they are often covered by the operators. The LACMTA limits the speed to 55mph, but the cars accelerate to that speed very quickly, and could obviously go faster if allowed to.
Tom
What a shame for the 34 mile system with all that money in it at this point!
Chuck Greene
At least in New York or North Jersey, when you have a choice of lines to build, each serves a good purpose. You might lament not building one, but the other gets you something useful and needed.
Well, the line's here. It's moot. Make the best of it. When developers focus on it instead of other corridors, Ican only hope the pols there get egg on their faces.
The chief figure behing this boondogle is DEAD and the governor in charge at the time has mooved upward and onward. We're talking 0 accountibility here. Whitman had the chance to kill it back in 1999 when the cost started to balloon. An investigation was called for and she could have blocked funding right then and there.
And why would she have done that? This has been a most successful project so far, promising to put a billion dollars into Bechtel's coffers. Bechtel is Rumsfeld's company.
I have a lot of Webshots photos of the line prior to opening (still estimated for some time this fall), including the Rancocas Creek bridge mishap.
Chuck Greene
Newsday story
I don't hear anybody complaining about how we're wasting taxpayer money and handing it to corporate executives who then get paid more than a million dollars a year in salary, get loan forgiveness on their summer homes and use of limousines and helicopters.
But hey, when Amtrak tries to build up service in response to Congressional (though unfunded)mandates, all hell breaks loose.
We're a nation of hypocrites.
And HTML illiterate to boot! :-)
(Preview, always preview)
Tom
What is the most rapacious and self centered union in the country? The union of high corporate executives and directors, who appoint each other and decide what each other should earn. It is simply not possible to "earn" the amount of money they do by working, no matter how hard and long, no matter how well. Someone else could do it in their place. It may be possible to "earn" big bucks by having an uniquely great idea and making it work, but only a few of those exist.
So much for the free market.
That whole fiasco about Amtrak trying to cripple the US railroad industry?
I'm not going to put the whole blame on Amtrak, the political powers of congress SHOULD be ashamed of itself for always giving Amtrak the anal end of what they call "help". I belive Amtrak shouldn't get any federal aid because it's nothing more than a quick fix, a bs solution to a longterm problem. Congress should work with Amtrak to end their money woe's or make Amtrak a private agency and leave them the hell alone, instead of making the riding public the ones who suffer just because Congress can't run a railroad agency.
What fiasco? Dude, you're writing your own newspaper articles. Maybe you should lay off the crack pipe before you do it.
I think YOU should lay off the crack pipe cracky! Am I the only one that remembers in the fall of last year Amtrak wanted 100 million dollars in federal aid from congress, and David Gunn said if Amtrak didn't get the federal aid they would end all Amtrak service and stop any rail company from using any Amtrak facilities or personell? Don't you remember that Penn Station was nearly closed because Amtrak wouldn't allow the LIRR to use Amtrak facilities or trackage?
If you don't remember any of that last year then I suggest you stop using that "crackpipe" joke.
He only did that after Congress refused to allow Amtrak to cancel its long distance trains. Gunn had no options left. Congressmen wanted train service in their districts for free.
Like I said, without that cocaine haze, you would have remembered that.
2. I never did say congress was totally innocent did I? Or was you so busy making a mockery of everything you forgot to realize that.
3. That Cocaine junk is getting on my nerves (Yes I am aware I said that once before)
4. I will acknowledge your right about that part. Of course (Once again reiterating myself) I never did say Congress was innocent.
Remember this
I like David Gunn because he gets things accomplished. You can like his tactics, or not, but at this point, he is what Amtrak needs at the helm.
But you never know...
Now when it comes to it I see the position Amtrak is in. Theyre one of the few interstate transit agencies which has been forced to work from the little income they get. I David does has a long way to go with Amtrak, but congress ain't going to help him. The State's aren't going to help him, and theres no city that would even consider giving Amtrak some type of aid.
BTW, why the hell did it take a year after 9/11 for Amtrak to get some type of aid?
Seriously, though, right after 9/11, people took to the rails and left airplanes alone for a while.
Rail service, esp. in the NEC, is a needed option in the event there are problems in the air or on the roads. Amtrak is not the ONLY way to do it, but we ought not to toss it unless wecraft a viable plan to take its place. What the Bush Administration proposes has pluses and minuses; I haven't thought about it enough to figure out whether or not I like it.
Doubtful that'll happen anytime soon.
Yes, Amtrak has done some stupid stuff, but at least some of that stuff can be blamed on it's almost perenial use as a political football by the powers-that-be. There has been a string of poor presidents, of which Warrington was just the last (for now), and possibly worst. If Amtrak were properly funded and managed, then it certainly should, by all rights, work every bit as well as any other transit provider. Just about the only thing outside money and management that Amtrak needs would be far more control over their trackage rights, the ability to tell CSX, UP, and any other freight railroad that gives them lip about trackage rights where to get off, it's ridiculous that CSX, which doesn't maintain their track anyway, moans and bitches about Amtrak's trains on their tracks.
Once upon a time the Civil Aeronautics Board had to give thewm permission to do that. Then came deregulation.
Amtrak doesn't have to ask permission, because it knows the answer will be "no."
Have to share the airports with civil aviation, including freight hauling. We'd wait at LaGuardia to land circus animals.
Have to keep flying to every congressional district.
To give up the above, they'd have to build their own airports.
Otherwise, they'd be threatened with being divided into airlines run state-by-state every two years.
Every time they ran a lobbying effort to try to share in the highway fuel tax fund, they'd take it in the chops from the media.
And they'd STILL have to fill up every seat, never crash the planes, follow FAA safety regs, ground planes that fail inspections, and listen to the passengers complain -- and stop buying tickets -- every time a plane was late.
First, Airlines are critical to business and the national economy. Sadly, Amtrak is critical only to railfans. Woulda's, shoulda's and coulda's don't count. If Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow the nation would hardly bat an eye, with the exception of the NEC -- and a substitute would spring up there almost immediately.
Second, let's put some things in perspective. American Airlines carries 8 million passengers per month and got a grant of $358 million -- which is a one-time or two-time only thing. Amtrak carries 2 million passengers per month and wants a grant of between 900 million and 1.2 billion that repeats annually.
Finally, the issue of executive salaries is getting a bit played out. There is a price for leadership, the same as there is a price for a subway conductor or a nurse. Companies have to pay the going rate for a CEO, otherwise they'll have to drop down in the talent pool for someone who isn't as qualified -- one can argue with the results and performance of many of the CEO's, but I haven't seen anyone offer up a viable solution to the economic problems of the older airlines for a price any lower than what these guys are getting.
CG
You're largely correct. I would point out, however, that the importance of airlines to the nation's economy, while far greater than Amtrak's, is rapidly diminishing. Businesses increasingly use videoconferencing to replace travel and families who used to fly on vacation are now buying recreational vehicles. This is certainly not to say that airlines will ever be irrelevant, just that the economy would survive if a few airlines were to go out of business.
Disagreed on the impact of RV's and videoconferencing, though -- they are just a blip on the radar screen. Vacation travel and tourism are huge drivers of the economy for many areas of the country. Videoconferencing and Webconferencing are nice for some things, but anyone who's going to make a major financial committment is going to insist on face-to-face meetings.
Air Travel in terms of passenger count is back to where it was in about 1997. It won't hit the levels from 1999-2000 until there's another huge economic boom. The difference between 1997 and today is that the average fare is much lower. Vacation travelers are paying about the same, but business travelers are paying much less.
The airlines big mistake was thinking that the boom period of 1999-2000 represented a permanent level of demand -- and then making long term commitments (to purchase planes, employment contracts, gate leases) based on those levels of travel and average ticket prices.
CG
It's important to note that there's no precise way to distinguish between leisure and business travelers. What the airlines assume is that anyone who buys a ticket on short notice is a business traveler, an assumption that is usually but not always true. What is true, however, is the fact that last-minute travelers - we'll call them business travelers as do the airlines - will pay premium fares without complaining. Discount airlines such as Southwest, AirTran and Jet Blue make it possible to fly at the last minute while still paying reasonable fares. Let's say I really had to fly to Los Angeles tomorrow from New York and stay for a couple of days. On United Airlines I'd have to pay $1,841 roundtrip (I just checked), while on Southwest or Jet Blue I could get there and back for less than one-third that price. How ludicrous.
Moreover, there's some anecdotal evidence that businesses are becoming less rigid about demanding immediate travel. Instead of "Get here tomorrow!" we're more likely to hear "When can you get here?" In addition, much business travel is for conventions and trade shows, which usually are scheduled far in advance.
Disagreed on the impact of RV's and videoconferencing, though -- they are just a blip on the radar screen.
Dunno about RV's, as sales are booming like never before. Which is rather odd given the slow economy, as RV's are quite expensive and usually regarded as a discretionary purchase. I guess it means that the desire to travel is strong, and now that many people don't feel safe flying they'll look for alternatives.
Saturday stays have been largely eliminated as the criteria for determining a "business" fare. Instead it is the degree to which you can make changes to your itinerary and -- as you noted -- the length of time of advance purchase.
The only reason AA charges $547 is because it competes head-to-head with Jet Blue at LGB. By the way, LGB is a little gem of an airport, far superior to the madhouse at LAX. When we flew there last October, from the airplane (they still use boarding stairs) to the rental car was maybe 500 feet, no shuttle bus nonsense.
If you don't mind a long drive you can try John Wayne Airport in Orange County, or (what's that field out in San Bernardino?)
Ontario International Airport (ONT). A nice-looking airport in a growing area, but for some reason rather underutilized.
It looks underutilized because they just built two new terminals to replace the single overcrowded terminal that had been there. They now have about five times the gate capacity they had a year ago, and still have plenty of general aviation. The arriving and departing flights are well filled. They built the new terminals in anticipation of future growth rather than to just catch up.
Tom
Ontario isn't on the Santa Monica freeway. Interstate 10 is the Santa Monica freeway only from Santa Monica to downtown LA. Then it becomes the San Bernadino Freeway.
Of course Ontario is not really a Los Angeles airport like Long Beach or Burbank which are both in Los Angeles County. The main service area of Ontario Airport is the "Inland Empire" area of San Bernardino and Riverside Counties. It is convenient only for the eastern part of Los Angeles County, since it saves a trip through the downtown Los Angeles area.
By the same token, John Wayne airport in Orange County is also inconvenient to most of Los Angeles except for those in the southeastern part of Los Angeles County.
Tom
If I recall correctly, Metrolink's San Bernardino line comes quite close to ONT, maybe along the border of the airport property. Might not be a bad idea to build a connector to the terminals.
It does run along the edge of the airport, on the opposite side from the terminals. And don't forget, Metrolink is basically a commuter railroad running toward L.A. in the morning, and toward San Bernardino in the afternoon.
Tom
I suppose that could be considered a bad decision given the severe falloff in air travel. Although that might not be the airport's fault, as presumably construction was past the point of no return on 9/11. That's what happened with respect to the new American Airlines terminal at JFK. The airline would never start the work today, but it's being completed (at a slower pace) as it would have been more costly to scrap the project. Actually, it's possible that 9/11 and the resulting fear of flying hasn't hit air travel as hard in California as it has in New York.
The airline industry is, but not individual airlines. You're confusing the two.
"If Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow the nation would hardly bat an eye, with the exception of the NEC -- and a substitute would spring up there almost immediately. "
The same is true for United Airlines. The planes would continue flying after a couple of days of hiatus, with different paint schemes emerging (and maybe different unio contracts).
Finally, the issue of executive salaries is getting a bit played out. There is a price for leadership, the same as there is a price for a subway conductor or a nurse. Companies have to pay the going rate for a CEO, otherwise they'll have to drop down in the talent pool for someone who isn't as qualified "
Horsecrap. Even corporate boards are finally coming to the conclusion that all they are really doing is hiking salaries for each other - you scratch my back and and I'll scratch yours. It's nonsense. Pay for performance studies prove it.
"Second, let's put some things in perspective. American Airlines carries 8 million passengers per month and got a grant of $358 million -- which is a one-time or two-time only thing."
With no guarantee it won't be a three-time thing or a four-time thing.
Re executive compensation. I'd like to see the "Pay for Performance" studies you cite. It's very easy to look at a company's result and say that a company had a bad year so the executive team should draw no bonus. The thing that is missing from such an analysis is a review of the alternatives -- Could any executive have succeeded in that particular environment? Would an "average" executive have produced an even larger loss? Could the investor's entire investment been wiped out without the performance of the executive team? This was clearly the case with Delta and American, as the owners of US Air and United lost everything. By keeping the company's out of Chapter 11, those executives allowed the owners the ability to live another day. With traffic back up, the owners get a chance to actually recoup their investment.
Clearly there has been abuse (and much still remains) in the world of executive compensation -- I think it has more to do with boards of directors having no understanding what their role actually is than mutual back scratching but that's really neither here nor there (I think they're stupid, you think they're corrupt neither is really a good thing to be). Railing against a large salary or bonus just because it is large, however, doesn't really solve anything.
You're right in that there is no guarantee that this won't become a three-time or four-time thing. Good management of the federal response should ensure that it doesn't but that can't be guaranteed. I'd have preferred that all this aid be structured as long term debt, but nobody voted for me (again!). On the other hand, I'll take twice (or three time or four) in the 50 year history of most airlines over 32 times in the 32 year history of Amtrak any day.
CG
Check out archives of the Harvard Business Review. Fortune and Business Week report on this, but HBR authors often publish the studies.
Basically, they show that an executive's compensation does not correlate to ROI. In fact, many executives who perform well (Kelleher at Southwest, for example) are not anywhere near the top of the compensation ladder; others (Al Dunlap at Sunbeam, for a past example, or Jill Barad at Mattel - her success with Barbie did not translate into success with Mattel as a whole - or the gentleman who used to run Adidas once upon a time - blocking on his name) raped their companies while enriching themselves to god-like salaries.
I don't think everybody's corrupt - my post may have given you that impression - but I do thing corporate boards have been asleep at the switch, at the very least. Jill Barad was fired, but not before taking a sweet severance package with her.
When you get paid $40,000 to show up to a couple of board meetings a year, and nobody complains about your performance no matter what you do, and the CEO winks at you and promises an extra ten grand next year, well...
"You're right in that there is no guarantee that this won't become a three-time or four-time thing. Good management of the federal response should ensure that it doesn't but that can't be guaranteed. I'd have preferred that all this aid be structured as long term debt, but nobody voted for me (again!). "
I like that idea. I'd have voted for you on that point.
"On the other hand, I'll take twice (or three time or four) in the 50 year history of most airlines over 32 times in the 32 year history of Amtrak any day."
That's not reasonable. I look at Amtrak in the NEC as a critical utility, which it absolutely is. (or whatever would replace it). Amtrak elsewhere responds to the demands that Congress places on it.
Greyhound Lines is profitable as a whole. But many bus routes are not. For example, the run between Easton, PA and Philadelphia is state-subsidized. Why? Because state legislators from Easton want their constituents to have affordable bus service, and Greyhound would not run that service otherwise. The same is true on many other routes. If you cut those subsidies, Greyhound will cancel those routes and shrink its network a bit, because otherwise, it will also run in the red. But politically, that won't fly.
And Greyhound, effectively, has an inter-city monopoly. In New England, Peter Pan competes with them, but in other places Greyhound is often the only game in town. And there are places where the state will pay Greyhound to keep running buses even if they run empty much of the time.
Greyhound gets other subsidies, too: free use of taxpayer-supported interstate highways (Amtrak has to pay to use ROW). I'd like to know what Greyhound pays the Port Authority for its gates at the main bus terminal in NY, and compare it to Amtrak's costsat Penn Station.
So you see it isn't quite as black and white as your post makes it out to be.
The problem I have with these studies that attempt to tie ROI to Executive compensation generally do so over far too short a time period. Nearly any company that is performing poorly will have to overpay their employees (from CEO down to the level where people don't have job flexibility) in order to keep them and attract new employees. Otherwise, why would anyone take the risk of working for such a company?
Unless one measures compensation and ROI over a period much longer than one year you can't really get a meaningful study.
CG
We both suffer from that. Also, posting and email can be sterile - devoid of contextual meaning. Not like having a live conversation.
"The problem I have with these studies that attempt to tie ROI to Executive compensation generally do so over far too short a time period."
Oh, I don't know about that. I think they generally do a good job at measuring what they're after.
It's OK for a CEO to say, "hey I've only been here 6 months, cut me some slack," but then it becomes 2 years, then 5....it's just a never-ending set of excuses.
And what about the guy who initially seems to do a great job, then crashes and burns later? Paul Firestone (Reebok) attached solid rocket boosters to his compensation package when Reebok sales initially took off about 15 years ago (give or take, I'm trying to remember dates). He didn't take a pay cut when Nike mopped the basketball floor with him a couple of years after that. Where was the board of directors (and their laughable compensation committee) there?
Of course, I do find some merit in your argument: there are corporate boardswho have swung too far the other way: Bring a management team in, then fire them after they don't turn a company completely around in 6 months. In that case, maybe the company deserves to be soaked by the exit package. But that hurts mom and pop investors the worst, and they don't deserve it.
That's setting up a smokescreen. Most workers, including managers, get paid a flat salary regardless of whether the company is doing well or not. There may be a profit sharing plan that provides bonuses if profits are good, but they are only a small part of the compensation package. The idea of bonuses as a major part of the compensation package should be limited to the few top managers who make the major decisions about the directions the company should take. The theory is that these executives will be more interested in how the company performs if their compensation is tied to performance. The problems ensue when even mediocre performance results in huge bonuses, and the top executives count on these bonuses to maintain their lifestyle. A CEO should not get a bonus unless the company is making more money than the industry average, but when the compensation is structured with a low base salary, say $200,000.00 and bonuses in the millions, the compensation package may be rigged so that the CEO gets $5 million bonus just for showing up at work and doing an average job.
If the company is doing poorly and the compensation setup is with a small base salary, and large success bonuses, it will still attract turn around specialists and those confident that their ideas will make a difference. If it is setup with the same small base, but easy bonuses, so a far higher total salary is assured, it will attract anyone who wants to earn a lot of money.
Tom
That is BS! I have an article somewhere from an aviation magazine that discussed this issue. Southwest, one of the country's most profitable airlines, pays chump change compared to what US Airways and United pay their CEOs. If I get a chance maybe I will find the article and scan it into my computer so I can e-mail it to those interested
Southwest does a great job, but they were largely insulated from the problems of 2001-02.
It's a bit of a Catch-22 in business that you have to pay people a higher salary to work at a company that loses money. It's a personal risk/reward thing.
CG
If they were critical to business, business would actually demand them and they would not require federal aid as a result. Any federal aid then given would be a benefit paid to the richest in society. Talk about regressive taxation policy!
Now you're catching on! Republican welfare at its best.
Tom
It is uclear if they will be available for tomorrow's rush, but their absence would essentially entail a rush hour nightmare.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
On MOST equipment, it's part of the routine inspection. When the brushes fail (and there's usually one for each axle) then current CAN go through the bearings with nasty nasty end results.
Have I got it right?
I'm surprised Warrington didn't blame that on a conductor!
BTW, with all due respect, Mike, the place is spelled "Hamilton".
Also, it was a beautiful weekend, seeing no MU's on the Corridor west of Rahway!
By the way, I was just thinking of these for a strange reason. Last night I saw Iron Maiden at Jones Beach, and man did they ROCK. (Hey, I may have cut my hair, but I'm still a product of the 80's).
It just mede me think of the "subway iron maidens".
Stories of it jamming when used discouraged use
The one I did use as a kid worked, but it was fightening (for me as a small child), but I can imagine people getting scared of being jammed into one of them, and stuck, in an unmanned mezzanine somewhere (the reason anyone would be used to begin with). I think the station I used it in was somewhere in midtown on the Broadway Line, but I was to young to remember where. I can't even remember where I even last saw one, I think Jefferson Ave on the L.
Having even a single iron maiden at a station with all HEETS improves ths flow of riders entering and exiting tremendously
Yeah, but they are already all gone. The MetroCard ones they now use have really little resemblence to the real "Iron Maidens". Those are great, and an assest to have. I think over time, they may become more prevelant, and actually some former closed mezzanines may be reopened with them.
Late 1997
Iron Maidens?? Reminds me of a nun I had in grammar school.
Larry, RedbirdR33
PS I beileve her name was Sister Mary Stonecrusher.
Most underpasses (dedicated underpasses, that is, not mezzanines) are inside fare control. The only one I can think of that isn't is at Cortlandt BMT.
On a weekly basis, I visited the S/A across the street to request permission to enter through the gate.
I don't think I ever successfully used an iron maiden anywhere.
Fear of the dark,
fear of the dark
I have constant fear that something's always near
Fear of the dark,
fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someone's always there....
Ooops, I'm sorry, I'm still stuck in last night with the other Iron Maiden.
Seriously though, I guess that could describe someone alone in a lonely mezzanine, trying to enter the system through one of the iron maidens that were very hard to use "successfully" as described. That is not a good thing in the 1970's or 1980's subway system...certainly not good to be alone anywhere in the subway back then, with no one around....certainly not in an unmanned subway entrance trying to fool with one of those iron maidens.
They certainly weren't reliable pieces of equipment.
Fear of the dark,
fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someone's always there....
I thought it was someone's remberence of walking alone along a subway coridor and approaching an Iron Maiden.
...Have you run your fingers down the wall
And have you felt your neck skin crawl
When you're searching for the light?
Sometimes when you're scared to take a look
At the corner of the room
You've sensed that something's watching you
Have you ever been alone at night
Thought you heard footsteps behind
And turned around and no one's there?
And as you quicken up your pace
You find it hard to look again
Because you're sure there's someone there
Watching horror films the night before
Debating witches and folklores
The unknown troubles on your mind
Maybe your mind is playing tricks
You sense, and suddenly eyes fix
On dancing shadows from behind
Fear of the dark,
fear of the dark
I have constant fear that something's always near
Fear of the dark,
fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someone's always there
When I'm walking a dark road I am a man who walks alone
There was never Culver/Broadway service. The obvious references to the Broadway Subway mean by connection to other BMT services.
Part of the sign is cut off. IIRC, the signs said "To Queens via 7th Avenue and 60th Street."
Service from 13th Avenue when the sign was probably posted was via 5th Avenue L only, but you connected at 9th Avenue for the other services.
In 1931 Nassau Loop service was inaugurated as an add-on.
But we do know. If people put half the energy into doing new research that they put into trying to prove conjecture, the amount of historical knowledge could skyrocket.
But maybe I shouldn't discourage this. This could be the new "76th Street" and keep railfans off the street. ;-)
The old BMT station signs listed every possible destination. I remember the one in the mezzanine of the 14th Street and 8th Avenue Station, listing not just Canarsie, but every other neighborhood in Brooklyn the Canarsie line (and connecting services) ran to.
"Municipal Railway" means the BRT and dates the signs to otiginal construction--i.e., pre-1923.
The sign at center below is from the 14th Street Line. Note that it lists destinations to EAST NEW YORK, JAMAICA and CANARSIE, even though there was never service from the 14th Street Line to Jamaica. They mean by connection.
When the pic was taken of the sign the wording was either taken off the sign or blackened out.
Indeed direct service is impossible unless your BMT line train did some kind of reverse move in the Montague tunnel and I don't think that connection even existed when that vintage sign was placed there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
...and subsquently whitewashed over :(
www.forgotten-ny.com
Then what happened to it? He sold it or something?
Jimmy
Anyway, after he left, I was heading home from the Airport because I had some stuff to do. The train I was on kept breaking down, at every stop, we would sit there for a few minutes while the T/O tried to get the train moving. Trains were bunching up behind us and every station was crowded since we were delaying everything. After several of those, we were at Peachtree Center went the train completely lost power, light motors, everything, it was dead and we were stuck on the train for about 10 minutes. The T/O got the train back on and we got to Civic Center, the next stop. After sitting there for a couple of minutes, the T/O finally discharged the train and was going OOS.
I was really pissed because I had some important stuff to do and I was already an hour late and I still wasn't at my station. So when we were discharged, I punched one of the windows with my fist from the outside. I punched it really hard and my hand was hurting for a few minutes. The T/O ended up running to the back of the train (I was in the last car, so that's where I was standing) and had to operate the train from back there. The T/O closed the doors and the train started moving on its own. I saw the T/O scrambling to get the to T/O position to stop the train. He then looked out the window shaking his head with pissed look to the cop on the platform. After a couple1e of minutes, the train switched tracks to head back to the yard.
After getting on the next train, which was right behind the broken train, my pinky was swelling up and I knew I had broken something. I drove to the hospital after having to go home and get my insurance card. Look at the back of your own hand, feel the bones that go up to your knuckles? I believe it's called the metacarpals. I broke the one for my pinky and looking at the x-rays, it was sitting a couple of mm away from where it should be.
A good thing that happened at the hospital was that good looking nurse was doing something to my hand, and when she bent over, I got a nice look of her boobs and very muscular abs. It was straight out of the movies. :-)
So the moral of the story is don't punch a bullet-proof subway glass, it'll win everytime. Especially when you're supposed to leave the country this Friday, like I am supposed to, dammit!
Chuck Greene
I too will be in Germany next month. I will be arriving in Düsseldorf on the 8th of August, and visiting friends in Heidelberg and Pirmasens for about three weeks. Perhaps we can get together for a beer sometime. Please contact me by e-mail and leave your e-mail address.
Tom
It sounds from your account of the hospital visit that it was you that won.
Have you seen a lawyer yet? It looks like a clear case of MARTA negligence to me. :-)
Tom
"A good thing that happened at the hospital was that good looking nurse was doing something to my hand, and when she bent over, I got a nice look of her boobs and very muscular abs. It was straight out of the movies. :-) "
That would mitigate the case (in his mind, anyway)...
Compensation you call it?? I see a cause of action against the hospital for dangerously elevating his blood pressure and increasing his heart rate. I am sure I can line up an expert to testify that this will almost certainly result in a stroke within the next 50 years, and the added stress of knowing it will happen should be worth $1 million a year for each of those 50 years. :-)
Tom
I forgot that possibility. That makes the damages even higher. :-)
Tom
I'd say a busted finger was a reasonable tradeoff :)
Though I'm still trying to figure out how you could have seen her abs.
Or bust his other hand.
Worst case, you just showed some appreciation to the staff and made them all feel good in the process.
--Mark
Chuck Greene
Like I said to Rob from Atlanta, now you'll just have to bust your other hand.
Hey bonehead: Grow up. Sheesh, what kind of talk is that for this venue? What are you, in 5th grade or something? That's some rude talk, and what a jerk you are for saying it. Your subject line has it right. "A Total Idiot".
:0)
That's rich for the guy who's miscorrected the word "idiot" in the subject line to "idit".
Sheesh. Let's bandy this about, shall we? No, the post I responded to, # 535619, Rob From Atlanta made the correction, as the exact subject header from his post was "The train won (or, how I'm a total idiot)". Hence, the subject header for my response post utilized the subject header of his post.
The lines I quoted from his post seemed rude and uncalled for. It denigrated what the board is all about. And that's it. Truth is, I've read every response to the issue EXCEPT from Rob From Atlanta. What's to be said? I spoke my piece, or is that peace?
But c'mon, all of you goodie-goodies never looked at a hot woman and later commented about them to your friends? Do you mean to tell me that you all have never uttered the sentence to your friends, "That girl I saw has an excellent _______?" If you all don't check out girls and let someone else know, how do you get dates, or is it safe to say you don't?
It's one thing to say something like that to the girl to her face, but I never said anything to her would remotely be considered vulgar. I was at the hospital for a broken metacarpal, not to ask a nurse out or to harass her.
Consider this not-entirely-improbable scenario: You go to one of those Chinese restaurant buffets. There are 24 - a couple of dozen, to stay in tune with your post - different dinner items on display. 23 of them are ordinary things like Lake Tung Ting Shrimp, stir-fried pork, egg foo young, etc. One of them is fried cat. Which one of the 24 items will you recall and discuss?
Nice going, brassknoll!
It's totally obvious, even without regard to your handle, that you're not from New York.
A real New Yorkers would have had to go home and get his Medicaid card.
For the record, I didn't put a :) on the end of my post because this is not a joke.
L Line
3 Line
D Line
E Line
6 Line
Hell the 2 Line Rated better then the 7 and Q!! The J/Z did awesome too!
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=003980 to see the other results.
Actually, you have no proof at all. The only BS is your post.
"I could go further if anyone contradicts this, but some data is clearly made up, so you cant really trust any of it."
The reason you don't go further is because you have nothing constructive to present...unless you want to make up something.
I give credit where credit is due.
As for the C running more frequently than the D, I guess it all depends on what time of day and what day of the week these findings are based on. For example, my line, the J, was rated the dirtiest in the system, but rarely do I ever see any trash or anything - and I get on at the end of the line - 111th St. I've seen E & F trains dirtier than that, but yet they rate better. Just take it with a grain of salt and realize - nothing is 100%
I think he meant Mean Distance Between Failuires, ie. the number of miles the average train car travels before it breaks down en route and has to abandon its run. Once down to 8,000, it is now over 100,000 for virtually all car types.
So the data from the Straphangers Campaign was flawed from the onset.
No, that doesn't make the data useless, but the Strappies should have provided footnotes to account for special events like the new cars. Over time (ie repeat the measure next year) if you measure the same way year over year, the comparisons are quite valid.
"Frequency of the #5 line during rush hour? I saw at least four #5 express trains and an additional two #5 East 238th st specials. Nothing wrong with the #5 line on Friday. "
It's ridiculous to criticize a measurement that was compiled over time with less than one full day's observation by you. How was the following Friday, or the Friday before that?
"So the data from the Straphangers Campaign was flawed from the onset."
No, your critique was flawed from the onset. If you're going to knock somebody's efforts, you had better know what you're talking about. From your post, you show a very poor understanding of statistics and sampling. Feel free to consult a textbook, then go back and look at the TA's data (the kind Train Dude would post - you have access to it, I assume), and then compare it to the Strappies.
Do your homework - then criticize.
The C line from Brooklyn is more frequent (7.5 minutes) than the C from Upper Manhattan (9-10 minutes) during the AM rush.
The N and W lines have different headways, more frequent in Queens than in Brooklyn.
The #5 line cannot be measured in headways on the Brooklyn portion as comparable from the Bronx segment, because not all #5 trains go to Flatbush, some operate to/from New Lots or Utica.
The Q diamond line was a non-factor in this report (it did mentioned the 1/9 and J/Z but the 9 and Z lines have far less service time frames than the Q diamond express line.) Also, is it now even less likely to get a seat on the Q line overall, does it theortically reduce it's $1.05 value since most rush hour Q express trains are packed?
Has the Straphangers Campaign rated the accuracy of live announcements on weekends since they are more likely to be error prone, in partuculary a portion of a line that is suspended?
Some questions I ponder on this board, that's why this survey MIGHT be flawed.
The N and W lines have different headways, more frequent in Queens than in Brooklyn. "
Is that the TA's schedule, or is that actual train performance measured by seeing if trains actually arrive at the same point consistently? There is a difference.
"The #5 line cannot be measured in headways on the Brooklyn portion as comparable from the Bronx segment, because not all #5 trains go to Flatbush, some operate to/from New Lots or Utica."
OK, good point. One thing the Strappies did not do well is provide method specifics. That's a valid criticism.
"Some questions I ponder on this board, that's why this survey MIGHT be flawed."
Now you're being more reasonable. Parts of the survey may be flawed (or while valid, needs more explanation).
You might even email your observations to them.
You're right to criticize the late release (6 months) on the report. I don't know how much manpower they had for this (they squandered some on the silly fare hike lawsuit).
But note this: the next report will take into account improvements the TA made in the sixmonth period ending this last June.
Another example: the 6 is claimed to have less frequent service than the 4 and even the 1/9. I think they forgot about the Bronx express, even though it's more frequent than the Bronx local and they make the exact same stops in Manhattan. Similarly, I think they forgot about the diamond-Q.
But the B line makes at least 7 additional stops than the D line, so that's 7 more stops of doors opening and closing, making them more suscepetable to door holding and motor burnouts.
And yes they forgot the Q-Diamond and possible the 6 and 7 diamond expresses in the survey. Once again, the G line is left out of the survey because of so-called "incomplete data".
That's far better than making something up.
It is possible that part of Gene's constituency in Greenpoint didn't like what the Strappies compiled, and pressured him not to present it. I don't think he'd cave to that, persnally. I know the guy.
OTOH, I'm not sure how the V data are incomplete.
If the Strappies only rate a line after it's been in business two years or more, they should say so.
To be sure. Even this survey excluded crowding data for the G and V - the two consistently underused routes in the system. Obviously, the numbers for the G and V didn't mesh with the Strappies' agenda, and thus had to be discarded.
It is possible that that is what happened, though another possibility is that data was excluded for lines which had changed only in the last year or were totally new.
Though I agree that the Strappies should have explained it, your biased comment is outright foolish, since you don't know what happened.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The MTA's treatment of these lines on weekends is abysmal, abominable, absquatulous, etc etc.
No Manhattan Bridge service on weekends; R's going express when I need a connection at 9th Street; N "shuttles' going to Pacific only. Every weekend, it's a new service interruption. And they think this line can operate after both sides of the MB reopen.
A novel idea for the MTA: run the N's express over the bridge at all times, run the R's local all times and cut the W's back to Whitehall when the D's take over the West End. They might be considering that, but the MTA doesn't like all night express service.
Actually, I have had the opportunity to inherit my father's spacious apartment in Bay Ridge and was seriously considering moving back to my home neighborhood (from 1957-1993). But the MTA's refusal to treat this line as anything but a garbage dump (seen the 9th St complex lately)? nixed the whole thing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Since you don't read either their stuff or the TA's, they have more of a clue than you do. You could learn something from them, if you wanted to.
But you don't want to.
But you don't know where those "screwups" are. At least Kool-D was able to point to specific issues that needed examination. Read his last post.
"The 6 Bronx Express was omitted, and the "report" had enough timetable screwups to make it laughable."
The Straphangers measure train performance, not timetables.
The oonly laughable thing about this thread are your posts.
"No wonder the TA doesn't take them seriously."
The TA does take them seriously; several TA decisions over the years were influenced by Straphanger data. They are "adversaries" in a way, yet the Straphangers were important in many ways, including getting political support for the Capital Planning process.
If you want to appear foolish, that's your choice. But you could put the same effort into learning something. I'm sorry you don't.
I have heard and seen the BMT Center Street Loop and Nassau Street Loop names used interchangeably, especially apparently because "Center Street Loop" is thought of as an older description of what became "Nassau Street Loop."
They are two different portions of right-of-way. Center Street Loop is from Essex to Chambers. Nassau Street Loop from Chambers to Montague Street tunnel.
It may be that it was supposed to be:
Center Street Loop: Willie B to Brooklyn B
amd
Nassau Street Loop: Manny B to Rat Tunnel.
: ) Elias
I read somewhere that Bowery was built so deep so that another line could be built above, but I have never seen any plans for what that line might have been. Nor have I heard of any planned track connection. There was however a plan to make Chambers Street station 6 track, though where the other 2 tracks would have gone after Chambers I don't know.
The SAS might have a connection with the IND station at Grand Street on its way to lower Manhattan. I've heard it might connect with the J line. I wouldn't be surprised if it connects with Chanbers St.
You would be wrong, as you often are when you THINK something.
Bowery was to be a connection to a proposed but never built or fully studied Bowery subway.
The SAS might have a connection with the IND station at Grand Street on its way to lower Manhattan. I've heard it might connect with the J line. I wouldn't be surprised if it connects with Chanbers St.
I would. If you had done any research (as I have), you would find that any Nassau connection has been rejected. Still, I don't believe the Second Avenue Subway will be built at this time, and a future study could revive it (unlikely).
Bowery would be the most logical place for a transfer point, but that does not mean anything with regard to the building of the station. To my knowledge, no Second Avenue subway was proposed in the 1910s and if someone did propose an el replacement, it was not reflected by the BRT in their building of the line under Delancey/Kenmare.
If it gets built or not will probably depend on if NYC gets the 2012 Olympics.
I highly doubt that it would matter. The Second Avenue subway would not directly benefit the Olympics, however a quickly and successfully built 7-line extension could show that the money won't be wasted as it was the last time.
I don't think the IOC has decided that yet? Have you heard anything?
The IOC chooses Olympic venues 7 years in advance. Vancouver recently won 2010.
HERRING!
Elias
But in regard to the original configuration of Chambers Steet
This Second Avenue Line (and I did say LINE not SUBWAY) was not a factor.
It was a different company, a different level, and a different street.
: ) Elias
The LIRR used to terminate at Chambers Street, maybe they used those tracks.
Elias
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.bmt-lines.com/moodybrtmap.JPG
Granted such a proposal requires enviromental studies, appropriation of capital and the impact of increased traffic in the community, but I think it's an idea worth entertaining. Any thoughts or opinions, good or bad, are welcome.
Jimmy
This could work in Nassau County, particularly the south shore with its more dense population. A good, frequent bus on Merrick Avenue would never be more tha a half mile from anyone in Merrick north of the station.
But in Suffolk... Spread out, there is no way one lion can prowl the whole jungle out there.
So yes, I think they *do* expect you to bring your car to the station, they just need bigger stations with built in park-n-ride.
A new station perhaps at Holtville, with a huge parking lot, could have the parking fee included with the train fare (ie by making it in the next zone out) but then by providing with fast, frequent service to make it a very attractive option.
Elias
A 175 parking lot expansion at Harriman, now close to completion, is budgeted at 2.4 million.
Now, not all of the 2.4 million went towards laying asphalt. Part of the project involves putting up new lamp posts in the existing 950-space lot, and patching up all the potholes (they're just starting that part now). They're also building a roof-covered walkway from the station platform over to the expansion lot (which is a bit of a distance away).
The same link also showed a budget of $860,000 for another lot at Tuxedo. I don't know all the details for that one, but AFAIK it's just a straightforward paving job that gave 125 additional spaces.
Actually, they just (late 2002) started up two Merrick loop bus routes which run about every 20 minutes or so through the neighborhoods of Merrick and North Merrick. I haven't heard anything about whether or not they're catching on, but the Rockville Centre loop probably takes about 100-150 people to the station each morning and the other bus lines in town probably drop off a similar number -- I wouldn't think Merrick would be any different.
CG
I remember riding the Merick Loop back in the 50s.
In the AM it ran counterclockwise north on Merrick, East on Camp North on Park West on Jerusalem and then south again on Merrick to the station.
In the PM it went clockwise around the loop.
I'd go down to the candy store at Old Mill and Merrick and waif for dad to get off the bus.
In later years dad would walk from the station and the heck with the bus.
It was after all only two miles, what would he need a bus for? : )
By "Ftequent" Service I ment every 10 minutes.
Elias
http://www.mta.info/libus/pdf/n5253.pdf
Enjoy.
CG
Though it does stop right at my front door.
: ) Elias
I remember those 1950 vintage busses, with their cash registers, and their flecked green paint on the inside.
: ) Elias
Hempstead Bus Comp Mack
Yeah, it's called Medford and Yaphank. If the LIRR would finally stop providing 1950's-like service on the line, and either increase diesel service between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma to normal service or electify to Yaphank, there would be no need for new stations. It's about time they acknowledge the fact that Medford, Yaphank, Manorville, etc are no longer rural outposts.
You wouldn't even need much extra service to make Medford and Yaphank useful. One more trainset should do it.
If I'm not mistaken the LIRR had better service on the Greenport Branch in the 50's than it has now!!!
Ronkonkoma East by comparison would be a simple project.
Then the proposed LIRR station should be named Northwest.
Doesn't look like it.
CG
Since the Earth is 4.6 Billion years old, one might consider 1788 to be recent. :-)
A 13 station extension :-D
Ronkonkoma East by comparison would be a simple project.
A comparable 13 station extension would be more fun though... oops there are only 6 stations beyond Ronkonkoma...
Electrification of the Main Line from Hicksville to Ronkonkoma caused that line to become grossly overcrowded while the Pt. Jefferson and Montauk lines saw their ridership plummet. No such imbalance occured with respect to the Harlem Line's electrification.
that ought to fix things.
Elias
Not an obstacle. Extend the line to Spain.
Actually there is parking available at any time. It's in an undeveloped dirt lot on the north side of the station, quite far to the west of the platforms. Specifically, it's west of the Smithtown Avenue overpass, and depending on how late you get there the open spots can be as far as a third of a mile west of the platforms.
You can't build anything EAST of Ronkonkoma.
That is where the WORLD ENDS, and you will FALL OFfffffffffff...........
By the way I heard a lot of people mention your name when it came to the documentary questions. Are you like in charage or did you film it or just joined the group?
Jimmy
Jimmy
;c )
;)
Prolly explains why I've always been thin like gingerbread.
Jimmy
Jimmy
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
South Motor: Single-Single-Single-Single-Single-Single-C-NC-NC-NC-C North Motor
C: Cab car
NC: non-cab equipped car
The common arrangement on the 7 is for six singles to be on the Manhattan end and one five-car set to be on the Flushing end. I think an occasional train is made up of eleven singles.
Even on the 75-footers, the storm door window is designed to pop out in the event of an emergency.
(If the transverse cabs are folded up on the five-car sets, then this will be a moot point. My guess is that this will happen eventually.)
Jimmy
R-32.
til next time
R62/68A are permanently linked into 5- & 4-car sets, respectively. Full cabs each, controls removed from small cabs; no singles.
The R62/62A set is as follows
T-C,C-C,C-C,C-C,C-T
The R68single, and some R62Asingles are
T-C
The R62A single (most)are like
C-C
C=Corner Cab, T= Transverse Cab
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AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
til next time
til next time
til next time
someone please tell these people not to post my pics again and again.
i know my pics are good,but you don,t have to post em again.just look
at them and comment if ya want to,i,am not dising any of you who look
at this post,but please don,t post pics i posted already,please.and as
for salaamallah,ya posted all but one pic that has a red X.LOL...
til next time
It just happened that 2 people other than you were fixing the links at the same time, what sane person would post the same pics over and over again intentionally?
til next time
Bad example. They had express service on the 14th Street Line for 20 years.
Now we have safety regulations, slower service(Lexington Avenue line), less service(Lexington Avenue line), more delayed service(Lexington Avenue line), night service begins at 11 instead of 1.
241st Street before had access to TWO different east side services at one time(#5 and #8), now they don't have any. Gun Hill Road had a choice of 2 east side routes in the 1950s, now they barely have 1 choice at all. The 3 used to run at night as a shuttle, now it doesn't run at night at all(except G.O.s)(although the free shuttle buses don't seem bad)
#5 and #6 used to go to South Ferry, now none goes there. #6 used to back up the #4 at Bowling Green when the #5 was the Dyre Shuttle, now the #4 is the only train below Brooklyn Bridge at night.
At one point the #6 was eliminated below 125th Street at night, I'm surprised they even bothered to restore that service, since in 1995 all they did was slash night service(including the Webster Avenue Bx55 area).
The original Second Avenue Subway plans actually seemed, good, now today they are all just "fantasy ideas" and the reality is just that this line won't serve many areas, and will just create even more overcrowding at 125th Street(which is already overcrowded at certain times of the day, plus with water on the floors, unfinished construction and plug outlets that don't work sometimes(yes I have seen a worker unsuccessfully try to plug something in, but the machine won't come on), at least this station has a free crossover, unlike many Manhattan stations
[/RANT]
With this plan, you avoid having to double back on the slow, infrequent Rock Pk Shuttle or trying to catch a Rock Park (A) special, and you also avoid doubling back on the 2/5 to Flatbush. You also get a wide choice of places for food/drink and clean bathrooms.
How often does the Q35 run, anyway? (Should I be asking this on Bustalk?)
It doesn't *ren*
It is a BUS, it has WHEELS and it Rolls.
: ) Elias
Then why does each trip have a "run number?" ;)
How often does the Q35 run, anyway? (Should I be asking this on Bustalk?)
Every 20-30 minutes on the :00 & :30 from B 116 St on a 1/2 hour interval and you could figure out the interval on 20 miuntes.
Jimmy
Now the old MU's and the 1963 Silverliner cars had shades to deter "interested" parties from looking into the operating cab. When The GE cars started coming into service on the RDG in 1974, they were delivered without window shades.
This engineer made a practice of taping newspaper over the window when he was operating from that position. I questioned Frank one day about this practice and he gave me two reasons.
1. How would you like it if somebody was looking over your shoulder at your desk all day long? I couldn't find an argument with that one.
2. If he were coming up on a grade crossing at 50 MPH and saw a large truck that wasn't going to stop, he didn't want to "tangle" with the person standing at the door who wouldn't realize that they were seconds away from a collision.
I would interject that today some people who can't mind their own business and many who don't understand the workings of a railroad, should not be watching over the engineer and motorman's shoulder. They may view things that don't seem "normal" or seam "dangerous" to them and in turn make a call to the transit authority. This would bring a least a questioning of the "offending" operator. The last thing an engineer or motorman wants is to be "called up to the office" for questioning.
Where does this leave the railfan? Well it is very apparent to me that operating authorities do not want railfans to watch their operation. Most don't allow video for legal reasons because of our "sue everyone" society mentality we have today. Everyone is a bit more cautious today.
As a railfan, I enjoy the view from the "head end". However, we also need to respect the privicy of those operators who do not wish to be "on stage" everyday.
This is my opinion as a railfan of more that 40 some years. Responsible comments are invited. I would like to hear from others.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Jimmy
And they seem to do a good job against reflected light (yes/no?)
Elias
1. How would you like it if somebody was looking over your shoulder at your desk all day long? I couldn't find an argument with that one.
Point well taken, although I would note that bus drivers (unavoidably) are in public view while working and don't seem to mind.
I think it is more likely that they have gotten used to it. I can remember one time when a Greyhound operator insisted that my grandmother move to the back of the bus from the right hand front passenger seat after she had commented with exclamations of "oops" or "Jesus, Mary and Joseph!" as the operator dealt with rush hour traffic.
Tom
R-32.
R-32.
I'm surprised that, for all the nifty things like coat hooks, shleving and what-not that today's cabs haven't reverted to a wonderous old trick on streetcars and buses of the days of yore - a fiberglass black curtain that could be pulled when not OPTO'ing that would quarter-cab you so that whatever happened at the foamer portal wouldn't matter. Pull it out, darkness is your reward.
You'd THINK ... nah ... :)
While they also carried crappy flashlights, the LANTERNS were what you had to spot, and it was a LOT easier to see them with the headlights down. At the same time, the headlights had to be ON as you approached so they could see YOU as well, and you'd get banged in unless there was a GOOD reason for them being off. Then again, a good number of the Arnines HAD no headlights and on quite a few, they didn't work.
But it was easier to see without them. A dark cab is a happy cab ... as long as the beakies don't see ya. :)
I normally cover up the bottom half of the glass. This is to greatly reduce the glare in the cab which hits the windshield and reduces my visibility. Whatever glare does hit the windshield does so above my sight of vision and thus doesn't affect my operation. I feel bad for the young railfan kids which can't see as a result, but I do it out of safety. After all, I want to be able to clearly see that signal maintainer standing on the tracks.
If you want to know how glare can affect ones operation, next time you drive/ride in a car, do so with the interior light on.
Because they would be stolen. No question about it. Heck, they even steal the coat hangers in the cabs. Not only kids, but employees do the strangest things too.
There's a reason why people say that things that work elsewhere cannot work here in New York. Because here, these things tend to wind up broken or missing.
Besides, they are completely unsuitable for carring coal.
So they won't come out here!
: ) Elias
I can tell you the 160s won't go to the A-divison. Yep, you heard THAT exclusively here first.
NOPE!
My post was 84 seconds ahead of yours!
PHFTFTFTftftftftftttttttt..........
Exending it east to Norhtern Boulevard and making loops there to speed turnarounds.
I also want to get rid of those sharp curves south of the Queensboro Bridge.
I'd like run the Flushing line as it is, but taking the (7) off of it and putting the (R) on that line. It will join the BMT through the 60th St tunnel. Of course it cannot do that because the line needs much more capacity than this arrangement can provide. (But once the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue line will have major service on Northern Boulevard, this will change)
Then I'd build a new route for the Stineway Tunnel... The (7) train follows LIE and then the Lower Montauk line stopping only at new park and ride facilities, with some runs turning south on the old Rockaway Branch to cover the Rockaways (freeing the (A) to be extended to Supthin/Hillside) and the (E) as local the Euclid Avenue.
: ) Elias
Well, it was supposed to be a trolley car tunnel, and so there may have been a plan of sorts to do something like that, but I am certain it never came to fruition in as much as trolley cars never did use that tunnel AFIK.
Elias
Well, yes, you would have to take them out of the 60th Street Tunnel,
but then they would be a shoe in for the 63rd Street Tunnel.
Elias
Attention should first be paid to the simple things that can make for more efficiency and that can be done cheaply. Getting trains out during their scheduled times would be very important. For example, how many times does a train not depart Main Street on time delaying the whole line up and down and then running into another train when the line narrows down going into QBP? Doing that would make things run much more smoothly at mimimal cost. The realistic goal should be in getting more tph through the line with less delays and not in huge projects that the system is regrettably not very good in delivering on. And even if they were which is questionable, there would still be major inconveniences on the line.
There is alot of talk here about converting the Flushing line (the 7 route north of QBP) to B-division standards, extending the platforms and so on and then doing something with the southern portion of the line, which is difficult to convert. Why this is such a major goal is puzzling to me. Transfer to Broadway and Astoria trains (currently the N and W and probably post-2004 too) is very convenient. I do not see how sending 7 trains down the Broadway and creating a split service is to anyone's advantage except maybe the handicapped. Even then building an elevator or two should be cheaper by millions of dollars.
There maybe some things can be done to the infrastructure more easily and more economically. Maybe that set of switches in the Steinway tunnel should be relocated if it limits throughput there? Maybe Main Street should be redesigned to turn trains more easily.
I agree with you that it is important the 7 line expand eastward but this requires the eastern end of Main Street and those lovely escalators installed just a few years ago be removed. Granted, it was a stupid plan to begin with to make expansion very difficult. Maybe someday the funds and political capital will be there to rectify what is one of the worst renovations in the system (access for the handicapped purchased at the price of no further expansion.
I also agree that a new line in Queens is needed but I do not think the Steinway tunnel is the best vehicle for that. 63rd Street was designed for that purpose and ultimately I think all plans for the 42nd Street line are constrained by the fact that it was designed for trolley cars.
Elias
A little bird....
A REDBIRD! : )
Otherwise, I read it here!
: ) Elias
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I bet you a box of donughts!
: ) Elias
Let's look at how the Redbirds would have been retired according to your plan. The Redbirds on the 7 and 5 were in the worst shape; the Redbirds on the 2 were in the best shape. So the R-142's would have gone first to the 7 and the 5, then to the 4 and 6 (replacing only the Redbirds on those two lines), and finally to the 2. We all know that it didn't work out that -- the 2 got its R-142's first, and passed its Redbirds on to the 5; and the 7 still hasn't given up all of its Redbirds, and it's not getting any R-142's at all.
Even if we assume that the cars that currently run on the A and N will be retired first, the A and N could get equipment from some other lines, and those lines could get the R-160's. I don't know. I doubt any final decisions have been made yet.
Yes, some have been. (More or less)
The R160s are ordered in 4 car and 5 car sets.
Clearly the 4 car sets will go to the (J) and (M) routes, possibly the (GG). Which kind come in first is anybody's guess, but I suspect it will be the 4 car sets.
Elias
Some things never change! : )
They might also be useful on the (CC), yes?
: ) Elias
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AKCTUALLY, the (J) and the (M) are getting them first, with the 40s and 42s moving to the (A) and the 38 going to the fish farm.
: ) Elias
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And just where else mihgt they run FOUR CAR sets of R160s ???
The orderd FOUR car sets, and FIVE car sets, yes?
As for moving the 40s and 42s to the (A), that is just a WAG (wilde ass guess), but was ment to prove that the existance of 38s on a line does not portend the iminent arrive of 160s.
: ) Elias
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Salvage some LIRR M-1 for the SIR but of course modify them with vandal resistant seats and remove glass partitions. As a "railroad"
it would have greater funding to make this happen . restore ticket structure and an extension to NJ becomes a reality. (Don't Staten Island commuters get two transfers anyway. And a free ride on the island WHAT GIVES,, I live in Queens and pay madd money to take
LIRR from Jamaica to Flatbush)
Next take ALL R44 (SIR and Subway) to the Jamaica Yard with the R46
Of course SIR R44 are incompatible, therefore renumber, restore glass and isolate on the G, The other R44 fleet is an ideal replacement for the E or V. If still not sufficient, put the G either
out of Pitkin or CI
ergo, this would be the final assignments
---Pitkin (A,C,S) All R160's. If the R44's stay they cant go on the C
if it remains a 6/75' or 8/60' train. The A NEEDS NEW CARS.
---Jamaica (E,F,(G),R,V) All the R44 and R46 under one roof
---ENY (J,L,M,Z) All R143/160 though if the R32 remain the M should get them split between CI and ENY. either way older cars need to
jump around because the capacities fluctuate with service demands.
---CIY (B,D,N,Q,W,S) All R68/68A and remaining R32 and R160
New D train and B gets one fleet
Q gets another and the N/W has one
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(first, it is the remaining approx 600 R323 that would remain,
second for every 8 R44's, 10 (2+) R160 would have to go in their place, To add to that Qneens Blvd is already expanded by 53 cars
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
So it seemed that the A would yet again have the glory of hosting the debut of new cars from what I have heard; but I was thinking, perhaps one of the lines that has never hosted a new car should be given its day. The 143 was a first for the L, which always received the old hand-me downs and oddballs from elsewhere, as well as the C. The B, G, M, N, and R also never hosted new cars first. And now we have the new V and W lines added. I could see them putting the new cars on the V to further try to increase its lure.
Regardless of who gets the cars first, I see the final assignment as
A being entirely 160, 44's, now the oldest equipment passed down (dumped) to C; The E which has the 32's only because they prefer 60ft cars on the line, will definitely have them replaced with 160's; the 32's may be passed aroud at first while the other cars in less good condition are retired first. The F would get some too, replacing the rest of the 32's. If the V gest them in addition to the E and F, now you're talking about displacing 46's out of Queens. I'm not sure where they would go; perhaps the C.
In the south (B, D, N, Q, W) I'm not sure what they will do; perhaps spread them around (hope they have digital strip maps instead of line cards, and it would be nice if they had full color signs!), but the B and W will probably be all 68's which will then be the oldest cars in that section (replacing the 40's), since those lines are part time.
Most lines are more crowded rush hours and weekends than weekday middays. If the C should run short trains because it doesn't get large midday crowds, then every other line should run short trains too.
Not really. Running longer trains means more cars will have more road time and will need more maintenance. The C is fine with 8 cars at all times. It has been for decades.
As I said, it may be fine in Brooklyn, but it's not fine in Manhattan.
The C hasn't even existed for decades. It was born under 20 years ago. And even if it has existed, ridership patterns change. You know that.
AM rush forget it, it's crowded from Broadway Junction out. It's empty starting at Euclid, but picks up a good crowd from Shepherd-Liberty. I have never seen crush conditions on an AM rush C, but then again the last time I rode an AM rush C beyond Utica Ave, they were still running 4-car trains in off-hours, and I was still freshly wondering what happened to "those wierd red C trains" [R30s].
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
So anything that anyone tells you about which lines the R160 will go to who's not from the MTA is nothing but a guess.
So heres my stab in the dark: J/Z,M,Q,A,C,E
D
R-32.
D
(OTOH, 9's are often not resigned as 1's when the rush hour ends, since it really makes no difference when skip-stop doesn't run. I saw a bunch of trains signed as 9's today.)
But skip-stop on the 1/9 is widely derided around here. I finally rode it NB during rush hour a few weeks ago. We had to wait five minutes to get into the terminal, but under no circumstances could we let passengers off at 238th!
Bowling Green 5s always turn at South Ferry. It has already been posted three times in this thread.
WHAT are you studying about it?
JONN
D
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
R-32.
R38- has fluted sides on the bottom half of the car and has a 'ring' where the flipdot sign is at, fleet #'s 3950-4149
R-32.
R-38 side view:
R-32 front view:
R-32GE front view:
(I don't have a photo of the front of an R-32GE, but it's sort of a cross between the front of an R-32 and the front of an R-38.)
R-38 front view:
R-32 interior:
R-38/32GE interior:
The (St. Louis Car) R38's are essentially cheap knock-offs of the (Budd) R32's. From previous conversations here they are likely to be replaced first, even though they are newer.
The one on the left, obviously.
Did they ever actually run on the G?
Although I seem to remember a plethora of R-32s on Queens Blvd during the R-46 GOH, so Jamaica had plenty then, perhaps including the GEs? I was about 6 at the time, so forgive me for not being able to spot them...
I still miss their blue doors.:(
I always thought of the (Q).
Elias
R32
R38
hope this helps.
til next time
They're flipdots, not LEDs.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
Bill "Newkirk"
Incognito
R-32.
There were originally 174 M-3's ordered and delivered to the LIRR. Nos. #9771 - #9944. #9891-92 were the set that Colin Fergueson shot up ten years ago. They were renumbered #9945-46.
Now there is a big mystery. Two M-3's, several years ago were in Yard A in LIC, still in their original blue striping, awaiting scrapping. The pair to my knowledge suffered no collision damage or fire damage yet looked intact. No one knows why they were scrapped or for what reason.
So that leaves 172 M-3's, roughly about the same number of M-7's. Since there may be units higher in numbers than #7172, They jusy may have outnumbered the M-3's, but slightly.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
WAIT MIN, ISN'T the flushing line was considered the Mexican Line. Cause smelling too much challoupa and tacos on that train.
I read that the director of the (dual lines?) after the consolidation (under Hylan) once called his director of operations and complained, because he had ridden a subway to work that morning that had clean windows.
That tune would be the 5 train voice. I love her. The 5 train voice on a redbird! That would make my week.
Let's mug Mr. Peabody, tie up Sherman and take the Waybak Machine back to 1955 - not only Low-V's, but Hi-V's, Triplexes, Standards, Gate Cars and only a few "new cars".
Wouldn't that be fun? I'd never go back to 2003.
If we can hijack a Tardis (the next time the Doctor shows up) the problem is solved, as it is well known that a Tardis is bigger on the inside than the outside.
Count me in !
Maybe when we get to 1955, we can talk some sense into the TA by hopefully stopping them from killing off the last of the Brooklyn streetcar lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
* ryan
* ryan
D
Note: Sounds were posted from JohnVillanueva.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But, they do need a better front window!!
The R142 sounds more like Freddy Kreuger is about to be coming after you.
You know that is a no-no. Never a cop around when you need one.
I hope it was at least tasty.
But it does allow the judge to dismiss the ticket.
(Hmm, must be a side effect of an antibiotic I took recently :)
--Mark
Then what did you mean by, "never a cop around when you need one?"
She also doesn't seem to be mystical. Are your tastes becoming more eclectic or something?
He's being cheap, brah.
First thing I did was applaud the entire time it took for the train
to enter the station, and then I uttered "Wow!"
I didn't take a picture when I saw it yesterday since it was starting to rain.
Stay Tuned!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(duck, run)
--Mark
British author Clive Barker, opened his short story, "The Book Of Blood" with the sentence, "The dead have highways." He could have
just as readily said, "The dead have subways." He then developed this
idea in the story, "The Midnight Meat Train" further on in "The Books of Blood". Barker was a little off in terms of timing of the A train between midtown Manhattan and Far Rockaway, but it's a good story.
The climactic scene could have been in the Pitkin Yards, close to .. yes ! the fabled 76th Street Station!
I can relate to "ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE" re : the IND-IRT passage at 42nd Street. I've had similar thoughts sbout the IRT 7th
Avenue to BMT/IND 6th Avenue tunnel at 14th Street. I've also been reminded of Dante / T.S. Eliot by the morning crowds going up the
staircases from the Metro-North platforms in Grand Central Station :
"A vast throng at the foot of the stairs. I did not think death had
undone so many".
I've never watched the Twilighty Show about that Zone, so I'm only familiar with this story because of the SNL spoof.
Most railfans on here obsess with the RFW. I think a good stare or two on the side windows bares justice. The only thing I gripe about is people who block the view by leaning on the door. Please more into the center.
It just never got stripped or repainted.
"8 double A batteries for one dollar. Not two, not four, but eight."
Repeat several times except for one time thrown in somewhere in the middle:
"8 FAKE double A batteries, one dollar."
And then when somebody buys a pack, "Thank you for shopping the Q train."
Lately he's gone to 6 REAL double A batteries, two dollars. I've seen this guy a countless amount of times and I can't help but laugh every time without exception, particularly when he yells "FAKE" right after he sells a pack.
I hopped from a G train to an A at Hoyt and this guy was asking everyone if you wanted to buy some batteries. Straight to the point, which I admired. I didn't buy any though.
I've never heard anybody call them fake batteries, but I've heard them being called fake DURACELL batteries as they're Duracell knockoffs.
I admit I only watched one of Hope's TV specials through the years, many years ago. I still remember one of his jokes:
"I see that some of these discount airlines are offering fares from New York to California for $99 a seat. $500 if you want it on a plane."
This must have been about 15 or 20 years ago, but it still gives me a laugh.
R.I.P., Bob. Thanks for the memories.
Can we discuss some train business? Thank you.
I still think Bob Hope's "ski slope" nose was the inspiration for the R-40 Slant !
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Simple as that.
(on the other hand, how do you know he simply hasn't changed sign-on names and is posting here now?)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What does "would of" mean? Do you mean "would have" or the contraction "would've"? Please don't get offended, I don't mind an occasional misspelled word or even a grammatical error here and there, but changing the language is a pet peeve of mine.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You must have some strange setup. I am able to edit my posts right up to the time I hit the "Post Message" button.
Tom
I like it that way.
So since Subtalkers aren't going to have proof-readers, little mistakes or there shouldn't be a big deal. However, if a poster does that mistake constantly, then it's time to nitpick.
BTW, MY pet-peeve is that it seems NO ONE on this board knows how to spell "lose," "loser" or "losing." I always see "loose," "looser" or "loosing." I can't believe that hardly anyone knows how to spell such a common word. Let me help y'all:
Lose-opposite of win
Loose-not tight, what your mom is after after I'm through with her :-)
Loser-not a winner
Looser-less tighter
Losing-not winning
Loosing- not even a word, the right word is loosening which means in the process of un-tightening
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
That would be an interesting feature. No post would ever be final. Each time I look at a particular post it might say something else because the author changed his mind about what he wanted to say. Auditing Sub Talk could be come a full time occupation 24 hours a day.
Tom
:0)
I met Juice a couple of times at Branford and he seemed like a very nice guy.But
then
again
I can
be
an
annoying
individual
If that is true, then that's between "Juice"and his colleagues and bosses. We have no reason to hold that against him on Subtalk. Of course, being on an open forum here, you're entitled and encouraged to debate his views here.
"Hopefully the punks who pestered Dude have gone and he will comeback,"
Nobody pestered Train Dude. When somebody didn't like what he posted they said so. If he posted confidential information on the board, against TA rules, that was his responsibility to accept.
OntheJouice had a point of view, which he presented. He didn't call anybody names and treated other posters with respect. This is separate from official work issues,which Subtalk is not a part of.
"As for Juice good riddance to an annoying individual."
Based on your post here, we could say the same for you.
Save your opinions, brass!
The cast of characters:
THE CAPTAIN: Kool-D
THE VULCAN: R30
THE LIEUTENANT: Christopher Rivera
THE DOCTORS:: skfny and Mrs. Skfny
THE COMMUNICATOR: 1 South Ferry 9
THE SICK ROOM ATTENDANT: Dtrain22 and his trusty cooler filled with Grape Soda and other drinks
THE VULCANS (WHO ALWAYS CONSPPIRE SOMETHING: Chapter 11 Choo Choo and David J. Greenberger
THE HITCHIKER: RIPTA42Hope Tunnel
A beautiful warm 2 days await us Ultimate Riders, I actually was the last one to show up at 12:04 but a signal problem at 110th/CPN didn’t help matters. After some photo ops outside 148th St./Lenox, we “purchased” our Metrocards and are off. During this part of the ride our Vulcans (LOL), Choo Choo and Greenberger tagged along.
First train was the #3 to 42nd St./TS, no problems there, so I took my soft tacos from Taco Bell (they were taunting me not to stuff them), but I don’t care, I was HUNGRY. I finished my 5 sandwiches before we hit Times Square and the transfer to the #1 to South Ferry. We were at the 40th St. side and the West Side IRT master tower, so we went upstairs for a quick filming of us describing the tower. The Tower Operators didn’t want their faces on camera, so they pulled the blinds down. Back downstairs for the #1 and a good ride through SF loop and back to Chambers. We just missed our scheduled #2 train but since both the #2 and #3 must be used in both Brooklyn terminals, we opted for the #3. (I think at that point Choo Choo and Greenberger broke off from us, but they would be back later on today). Good ride on the next #3 train until we hit our first DANGER WILL ROBINSON episode, a nasty TSS on the New Lots platform warned us not to film anything and nearly ordered us off the train. The film crew informed the TSS the permit they had, but he wasn’t too swayed. The TSS held the door as they we closing, but he gave up.
Back to the ride: We took the #3 back towards Franklin for the #2 portion to Flatbush and back. We missed the R142 #4 train at Utica so we stayed on to Franklin, used the Shuttle staircases at the north end to cross over for the #2 and took that to Flatbush. We walked to the front of the train so we can cross round to the other train, and we caught that too. Back to Franklin and we stayed on the #2 to Nevins, where Gena had to meet someone to pick the boom mike (I think), she had to go outside. We hopped the first PM rush #5 train from either New Lots or Flatbush and headed to Brooklyn Bridge for the #6. Things went cool until at Canal St on the #6, a HUGE herd of summer camp kids got on and were in on the fun we had too. There were from the PAL in Hunts Point and we had fun talking to them. We got off at Grand Central and went to the shuttle platform for some walk-bys there (we did plenty of these walk-bys at different stations.). We took the shuttle back to TS and did some more walk-bys, despite the crowded area (rush hour was starting). R30’s father met us for some sushi and drinks we can use. After a few thank yous, we are off again. We got off at Union Square and caught up with Choo Choo again for the ride on the Q local to my favorite Brighton line. Some of us wanted to use the restroom and I got them off at Church Ave, despite a poor choice. I saw some old friend at Church Ave, we chatted and now back on the Q to Brighton Beach. Since we passed by my stop, Newkirk Ave (twice), I figured we can get some pizza on the fly. Second DANGER WILL ROBINSON melee was the T/O’s at Brighton Beach, one jokingly told us not to do any filming, but he knew me so it was OK. P/A over the speakers at BB informed us “due to a passenger requiring medical assistance, there is no Q express service at this time.” We caught the next Q local back to Newkirk for the pizza, and since LoDuca pizzeria was outside in front of the station’s entrance, I arranged 2 pies to be delivered to the fare control area. Back to the ride, a Q diamond hurried in and we got on quickly after I screamed out loud to get on (they were all the way in front of the platform.). We took the Q to the shuttle to what Chris called the “Crime” line, the C line for its poor rush hour frequency. But we didn’t wait too long, and Choo Choo did entertain us with some photos as we were relaxing. Next was the C to Hoyt St. and I was looking all over for Greenberger, but Choo Choo told me he was waiting for us at Euclid. So it was the next C to Euclid and Greenberger ran towards us, while out hitchhiker, RIPTA42HopeTunnel, entered Euclid fare control for the ride to the Rockaways. We used the Lefferts A first, and it was SHOCKING, that this was Choo Choo’s first time he rode the A to Lefferts. At Lefferts, we didn’t have time for photos, the next A train back to Rockaway Blvd was leaving and we had to catch it. Back to Rockaway Blvd and we were on the wrong side (East side of Cross Bay) and had to walk over to the F/T stairs at the west end. I knew the platform was crowded, so the A to Far Rockaway didn’t show up yet. 10 minutes later, an R32 A to FR pulled in and we had the BEAUTIFUL ride to FR. At FR, Gena asked the S/A for the key to the restroom, and the S/A called his supervisor twice and refused to hand over the key. (WTF is wrong with Transit Brass at 370 Jay? There is never any coordination, and the troubles we had with the bathroom breaks only underscores this point.) We took the R44 A from Far Rock back to BC for the changer over to the RP shuttle, and I was having fun with an unlocked door at the last car. I got through the first time, but when I went back to the last car and tried it again, I was locked out. The laughter of my fellow riders was priceless, and I’m sure Choo Choo had the shots to prove it. We changed at BC and the next DANGER WILL ROBINSON episode took place, the S/A requested our permit and the crew showed him the permit. The S/A was being very cordial about it and sent us on our way. The shuttle we were on was a long wait at Beach 110th St. for one of the trains to leave RP. So it was an even longer wait at RP and we used the 24/7 bathrooms wisely once we reached there. Now since it was getting late, a stirring debate on whether to alter the route slightly so that we can see the rarely use Lower Bergen during the F line G.O. (express Manhattan Bound from 4th Ave to Jay St.), raged on, and we eventually during the course of the night, agreed to see Lower Bergen, despite it would take us out of the way. Now we really PAID THE PRICE FOR THIS, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT.
Back at Broad Channel and we were having fun at ourselves. As an R44 A train pulled in on the opposite track to FR, the “3 RF stooges”, R30, Choo Choo, and Mr. Greenberger ran to the south end on our platform for the photos and runbys, the T/O blared his horn in approval of us. We hopped on the A to Broadway Junction for the L, and decided not to go to Rockaway Parkway and save that for the 2nd day. We took the L towards Manhattan and when we got to Jefferson St, whoops next DANGER WILL ROBINSON confrontation. The C/R had the nerve to stop us before we got to Jefferson St to look at the permit, and prevented the doors to open until he was satisfied with the permit requirements. So we sat at Jefferson with the doors closed for a minute before we were able to take off again. L to 8th Ave, upstairs where I suggested the E to Queens, then the G to Brooklyn. We took the A to 50th St., saw the lights behind us (we were in the last car, then the E from 50th St. to Roosevelt, then Christopher had to rub it in by showing off the line we would take, his V line back to 65th St.. I and Chris were at each other’s throats on the V line, how I hated it and gave G line riders the shaft, and why Chris loves riding the little-used V line. It was fun for other riders to see us argue ourselves to death. We would argue over the Marcy Ave routing later on (read on!).
Troubles started to brew at 65th St.. we did some walk-bys and other filming took place, but we spent a good hour waiting for the G train. The first Manhattan bound E local pulled in, we skipped that, and then another E local came in. I was trying to pull in the crew into the E and take that to Queens Plaza, we decided to skip it. BIG MISTAKE: A 4 car G train came in, but it was doing a BATTERY RUN and we were victims of this travesty. To add insult to injury, Mr. Greenberger was showing off his portable fan while we were suffering in the oppressive heat in the station. Dtrain22 was tired (from all those sugared drinks, no less). Chris begged a store upstairs that was closing (we heard the shutter gates rolling down) to send us some food downstairs, but you know that was to no avail to us. From 11:12 to 11:50 we waited, an E train came in and we took no chances. R30 asked the C/R if he saw an idle G train at 71st Ave, he said no, and we concluded that we should get off at 23rd-Ely for the transfer to the G. While running to catch the G, the airport runners were operating in the opposite direction so we had to hoof it the long way no use as a treadmill for us. We caught the G, but the G.O. for the 2 section G was in effect now and we had a treat for us in store. The G line was single tracking from Nassau Ave to Bedford-Nostrand, one of our interesting G.O.’s we experienced during the night. After a short wait for the G shuttle to Hoyt-Scher, . I was hoping for the crew that we can make a good connection for the A train, NOT! The damm Manhattan bound A train dissed everyone on the G train and made us wait 20 minutes for the next A train. I was FURIOUS, and steam came out of my eyeballs, so I marched over to the tower, it was closed. We agreed that Jay St, should’ve held the train. The A to Jay St came, we used that to Jay, then F to 4th Ave. A garbage train was sitting at the Manhattan-bound track, so R30 and Greenberger took no chances and advised us to stay on to 7th Ave. While waiting for the F to lower Bergen, I noted 2 plainclothes officers talking to some people, one of who received a summons. The officers went to the other end of the platform and an F train came in, but I misjudged the time by telling the film crew that is might be 10 minutes for the next train, when it showed up early. Choo Choo Greenberger and RIPTA42HopeTunnel all got on so that was it for them, we said goodbye to them. I was yelling for the crew to come down while I held the doors on the F train and that got the officer’s attention. They stopped R30 about taking pictures, but they were cordial about it, then they stopped Gena and asked for the permit, no problems there. I made a joke as one of the officers was approaching the staircase that Dtrain22, 1SF9, and Chris were sitting down, to “get up, none of you are pregnant”, no tickets were issued. We got the next F train, it was already 2 AM and our tired souls were sleeping off and on, Dtrain22 slept the most during the ride. We took the F to 14th St., then the long passageway to our “BRAHS” subway line, the #1 train. Gena asked S/A (Badge #12266) for the restroom, she refused, was very rude to Gena, and refused to acknowledge the permit. Some Redbirds were used on the garbage train on the S/B express track, we drooled in enjoyment. 1SF9 puts on his #1 t-shirt and RF’s the ride all the way up to 242nd/VCP, as Dtrain22 continued to do photos at every stop he got a chance. At 242/VCP, the film crew tried to access the crew room, the TW/O’s and TSS told her a lie that the restroom was not working, and we had to hang on to 207th St.. At Dyckman, two things happened: 1. The supervisors at 242nd/VCP put out an APB on us because we are “con artists” asking for bathrooms and 2. The train relayed back to middle track halfway to 207th St., and wrong-railed down to 168th St. (It was single track from Dyckman St to 168th St..). We took the A to 207th St., and I was nearly DQ’d for tiptoeing out the Auto entry gate. The crew tried their luck with the S/A and after a few words being exchanged and the S/A’s request to see the permit, she gave up the key. Personally, the S/A at 207th St. was the nicest one we encountered and she did listened to us as she read the crew’s permit from NYCT.
After the 207th St bathroom break, it was time to take the last A local to 59th St. (The next one would be the first S/B express, it was close to 5 AM when we left 207th St.). We made better connections at this point, hurried to the D train at 59th St., then the TUNA INCIDENT. Yes I was hungry and while 1SF9 was sleeping on some seats in front of me, I whipped out my can of tuna and made 3 bagel sandwiches. A transvestite was sitting across from me, she (eh! Meant he) was looking amused at my tuna sandwich preparations. And the can was made from oil, not water, so I might have ticked off Train Dude in the process, the window was filled with oil now when I drained it out. We did a quick shuttle to 205th St. and back, saw a D train being put-in to BPB and caught that back to 161st St. for the IRT Bronx Els., next on our list. The #4 to Woodlawn was first, I fell half asleep now at this point, but we had to keep awake because it was inbound rush hour, now back on the #4 to 149th St./GC for the #2. To keep myself awake, I sat to a fine mystical woman with nice shoes to boot (LOL), she got off at Allerton Ave, no luck there. We took the #2 and R30 saw some redbirds at Unionport Yard, took the #2 back to East 180th St. for the #5 to Dyre. Saw a Chinese battery seller on the #5 thru express at 7:30 AM, we held on to 125th St. for the #6. Best bathroom break, we used the crew quarters at PBP and it had soap dispensers yet. I reminded everyone that ALL AM #6 trains from PBP were express, nice ride to Manhattan; the train was empty all the way to 59th St. in Manhattan. Queens was next, a change of film crews was warranted at the Flushing platform of Grand Central. Gena will catch up with us later on the 2nd day. All redbirds treated us for the ride, six consecutive R36WF sets to be exact we saw, so that’s all 3 redbirds at the Main St. Terminal. Express service was suspended for signal work midday, plenty of activity going on at the express stations. Saw Main St and the Lippeman Plaza ADA Fare Control area and went back to QBP for the N or W. skfny and Mrs. Skfny arrange for some late breakfast from their family, we caught up with them at 36th Ave/Washington Ave, THANK YOU. Astoria then the long N train through the rathole, and Fred’s Slime Bitch line territory, I slept through most of it. Change ends at 86th St., for the N back to 62nd St., we saw how HORRIBLE the canopy was at 62nd St. on the W, plenty of big holes worse than 4th Ave or Smith-9th St. stations on the F line. Took W to CI, saw the big steel beams being erected all over the station, took a walk-by there and caught next W train out. The C/R told us on the leaving W train, that once the bell rings, he will close the doors and we will be left on the platform for the next train, we got on anyway. Took the W to 36th St., then R to 95th St. for another bathroom break, this time no key was needed. R to Pacific for the M and now Chris and R30 had a plan which I though might not work, to access Marcy Ave, we have to transverse the Williamsburg Bridge THREE times, once to Hewes, then J or M back to Essex, and the required stop for Marcy, then another J or M back to Eastern Division stations we didn’t hit. Even the brainstorm of this plan, Chris said the he will go out of the race if his plan makes up caught up with the J/Z skip-stop service. J to Broadway Junction, then L to RP and back to Myrtle-Wyckoff for the M. In the travels we saw the R40M at ENY Yard, the same one David Greenberger is talking about it today (did it get to CI yard yet?) it was signed N. After a long holding time on the M, we took off to Metropolitan, came back to Myrtle, as the last Z skip-stop train left Myrtle for the PM rush, so Chris was safe. R30 arranges RIPTA42HopeTunnel to meet us in the train at Crescent St. During the J train ride, a female preacher serenaded us with her sermon from Broadway Junction to Jamaica Center, a so-called food and charity worker comes in the car be he was overpowered by her sermon and gave up at 104th st. Jamaica Center was our last bathroom break and it was E to F, then back to Manhattan. I chatted with another fine woman and she got off at 21st st/Queensbridge, many passengers though that this was a high school or college project we were working on. Man I couldn’t wait to Avenue X and we did the walk-by at Fulton St and I did a shooting of that 10 year old sign at Fulton St (Closed from 1 AM Friday to 5 AM Monday) this should be very upsetting to NYCT brass.
Final stops were at Avenue X, we took a shuttle bus, I got off at the West 8th st stop and walked over to the closed Ocean Pkway station (sign said Q trains go to Manhattan AND QUEENS, DUH!). No more subways at this point, it was my B68 and a fast ride back home.
THANK YOU EVERYONE WHO SUPPORTED US.
Car numbers might have to wait until tomorrow, that will be Part 2 of this post! Sorry I am having a busy day now.
GRANDEOUS reporting, but clean out the eyes-- that was a 3 train.
Here's the link to the correct post with the correct info. http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=535945
Yes, I have great photos of you stuck behind and coming through the storm doors and they will be posted tonight. I will also post some of Dante's photos and some photos that Sumeet took.
And since they were tranfserring at 168th, they would have missed either 145th or 157th.
Close call hitting the J/M/Z nearing rush hour...
Anyway, enjoy chasing these subway cars:
3 R62A 1876 148th /Lenox Term Times Square 1:02 PM
1 R62A 2364 Times Square SF loop then Rector St (Crew Stop) 1:20 PM
1 R62A 2223 Rector St Chambers 1:32 PM
3 R62 1474 Chambers New Lots 2:18 PM
3 R62 1444 New Lots Franklin 2:36 PM
2 R142 6665 Franklin Flatbush 2:50 PM
2 R142 6625 Flatbush Nevins 3:09 PM
5 R142 6857 Nevins BB/CH 3:24 PM
6 R142A 7247 BB/CH 42ND St/GC 3:40 PM
TS/GCS R62A 2004 Grand Central Times Square (Sushi & Drinks) 3:54 PM
W R68A 5052 42nd`st/TS Misdemeanor 4:17 PM
Q Local R68 2908 14th St/US Church Ave (Rest) 4:48 PM
Q Local R68 2810 Church Ave Brighton Beach 5:20 PM
Q Local R68 2860 Brighton Beach Newkirk Ave (Pizza) 5:50 PM
Q Exp. R40 4367 Newkirk PP 6:08 PM
FAS R68 2922 PP Franklin 6:18 PM
C R38 3994 Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 6:33 PM
C R32 3699 Hoyt Scher. Euclid 7:01 PM
A R44 5218 Euclid Lefferts 7:20 PM
A R44 5334 Lefferts Rockaway Blvd 7:28 PM
A R32 3426 Rockaway Blvd Far Rock. (Break) 8:00 PM
A R44 5389 Far Rock. Broad Channel 8:35 PM
RPS R44 5376 Broad Channel Rockaway Park (Rest) 8:57 PM
RPS R44 5434 Rockaway Park Broad Channel 9:22 PM
A R38 4080 Broad Channel Broadway Junction 9:52 PM
L R143 8108 Broadway Junction 8th Avenue/14th St 10:40 PM
A R32 (N/A) 14th st/8th Avenue 50th St. (UL) 10:52 PM
E R32 3615 50th st (LL) Roosevelt Ave/JH 11:10 PM
V R46 5561 Roosevelt/JH 65th St. 11:12 PM
E R32 3882 65th St. 23rd Ely/Court Sq. 12 Midnight
G R46 6018 Court Sq. Bed-Nostrand 12:26 AM
G shuttle R46 5544 Bed-Nostrand Hoyt St 12:37 AM
A R32 (N/A) Hoyt St. Jay St. 12:59 AM
F R46 5803 Jay St. 7th Avenue 1:17 AM
F R46 6252 7th Avenue 14th st/6th Ave (Break) 2:16 AM
1 R62A 2296 14th st/7th Ave. 242nd st/VCP 3:20 AM
1 R62A 2299 242nd st/VCP 168th st. 4:02 AM
A R44 5403 168th st 207th st/Inwood (Break) 4:29 AM
A R44 5478 207th st/Inwood 59th st/CC 5:16 AM
D R68 2500 59th st/CC Bedford Park 5:48 AM
D shuttle R68 2508 Bedford PK 205th st, and return 5:51/5:53 AM
D R68 2602 Bedford PK 161st st/YS 6:19 AM
4 R142A 7693 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 6:50 AM
4 R142A 7693 Woodlawn 149th st/GC 7:15 AM
2 R142 6574 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield 8:00 AM
2 R142 6574 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st 8:21 AM
5 R142 6844 East 180th st Dyre Ave 8:34 AM
5 Thru Exp. R142 6845 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex 9:04 AM
6 Local R142A 7441 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park (Break)` 9:35 AM
6 Exp. R142A 7239 Pelham Bay Park 42nd st/GC 10:33 AM
7 R36WF 9595 Grand Central Times Square 10:37 AM
7 R36WF 9595 Times Square Queensboro Plaza 10:58 AM
W R68A 5199 Queensboro Plaza Ditmars/Astoria 11:08 AM
W R68A 5199 Ditmars/Astoria Queensboro Plaza 11:20 AM
7 R36WF 9579 Queensboro Plaza Main St/Flushing 11:44 AM
7 R36WF 9709 Main St./Flushing Queensboro Plaza 12:18 AM
N R40M 4545 Queensboro Plaza 86th st/Gravesend 1:34 PM
N R68A 5089 86th st/Gravesend New Utrecht/62nd st 1:46 PM
W R68A 5166 62nd st/New Utrecht Stillwell/CI 2:11 PM
W R68A 5052 Stillwell/CI 36th st/Bush Term 2:43 PM
R R44 6011 36th st 95th st (Break) 3:25 PM
R R44 6013 95th st Pacific St 3:38 PM
M R42 4783 Pacific St Hewes St 4:16 PM
M R42 4761 Hewes St Essex St. 4:26 PM
J R42 4946 Essex St. B’way-Junction 4:48 PM
L R143 8284 B’way-Junction Rockaway Pkwy. 5:02 PM
L R143 8170 Rockaway Pkwy. Myrtle-Wyckoff 5:27 PM
M R42 4907 Wyckoff-Myrtle Metropolitan 5:47 PM
M R42 4742 Metropolitan Myrtle-B’way 6:06 PM
J R42 4692 Myrtle-B’way Jamaica Ctr. (Break) 6:51 PM
E R32 3496 Jamaica Ctr. Union Tpke/KG 7:04 PM
F R46 (N/A) Union Tpke/KG 179th st 7:21 PM
F R46 5819 179th st 71st Ave/FH 7:41 PM
V R46 6161 71st Ave/FH Roosevelt/JH 7:57 PM
F R46 5293 Roosevelt/JH West 4th st/WS 8:19 PM
GSS R46 5912 B’way/Lafayette Grand St. and return 8:39/8:46 PM
C R38 3973 West 4th st/WS B’way-Nassau (walk-by) 9:00 PM
A R44 5246 B’way-Nassau Jay St/BH 9:26 PM
F R46 6254 Jay St/BH Avenue X 9:54 PM
F BUS RTS 9314 Avenue X West 8th st (Group continues to Stillwell/CI) 10:15 PM
B68 RTS 8449 Ocean Pkwy Newkirk/CI Aves 10:58 PM
But thank you, I think I put up a great list too!
1. The times listed were the arrival time for each leg of the trip. So for the first train (#3 to Times Square) we arrived at 1:02 PM, and so on.
2. I left the group at the West 8th St. stop on the F shuttle bus, and walked over for the B68 that would take my tired legs home. Sure I could've walked on the Boardwalk, it was a nice evening to do that, but I was in no mood for anything except a final dinner and sleep back home.
Oh, Geeeeeeeeena!!!
0 = )
I got off at West 8th st and walked over to Ocean Parkway, the only station we were not able to ride to. So in effect on a technical nature, I was the only one who visited all 468 subway stations. (Did any of you guys went to Ocean Parkway?).
My point is you "got off" the bus--- when you were the FIRST to
declare that you would personally ride the shuttle bus alla way to Stillwell
after all 468+ stations....
Prolly meaningless now, we all accomplished the feat, but I'll betcha
the TIMES folks w0uld whet their shorts over controversy like this ;)
Peace brah!! & 4get this thread... lol.
We all did a great job well done, I was just a bit tired (like everyone else who rode together), so I decided to get off at West 8th st, walked to OP and took my B68 home. Some walking was necessary for me to stretch my legs.
Due to a train with mechanical problems at Houston Street, South Ferry-bound 1 & 9 trains are running on the express track from 14th Street to Chambers Street.
Due to earlier signal problems at the Canal St. station, north-bound C trains are experiencing 3 to 5-minute delays at this time.
The latter may have to do with the E delay.
That might have impacted E service, though I can't imagine it would have created a two-hour gap.
Jimmy
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Just a shame both coasts have HISTORICAL EVENTS which occurred on/about
the same time of week...
Since majority of us are from the EAST, there go the roost!
Thanks for keeping us in-tune with the WEST, tho!!
D
R36s are rusting hulks of Carbon Steel, built to be thrown away in less than 40 years by a society that devalued all quality.
Those cars are bits of fine german engineering assembled in the state that still puts together most of the aircraft that the military uses. Their electrical systems are no doubt mostly solid state, so they'll last forever. They run on track far more forgiving than anything NYCTA has. In 100 years, with the right amount of maitenance, those trains could be looking every bit as good as they do today!
:-)
Yep. I love the development of new lines. Nothing better. But New York is the city where multiple three and four track rail transit lines are strewn about the terrain as if by whim. The Gold Line and its ilk are good. So is the HBLRT. But none of `em have the beauty of Chambers Street or the Sea Beach Line or the Queens Boulevard people-movin' monster of a transit line.
You left coast boys'll get your props. By n' by...
The Gold Line is still a nice piece of work.
One thing I am personally interested in is the use of four-quadrant gates at grade crossings on the system. Stuff like that ought to have been introduced at every blasted grade crossing across the USA IMHO. They’ve been using four-quadrant gates at crossings in Ireland and Britain for over a century—high time for the US to catch up not only on this LRT system in LA, but all over the place.
Pity that the US has to rely on getting LRVs from companies like Siemens, Kawasaki and Kinki-Sharyo, though…if St. Louis Car Company were building these LRVs, we would have solidly-built behemoths with good looks that would put the sterility of the German and Japanese manufacturers’s designs to utter shame and envy, I say…
Whereabouts exactly? I’ve only seen parts of the PJ branch, all of the Hempstead Branch, parts of the Ronkonkoma, Montauk (East and West Ends), Far Rockaway and Oyster Bay branches too, but no four-quadrant gates. Must have been a quite recent addition, or a rare one too; no such thing was ever commonplace on the LIRR to my memory.
And if people can still violate four-quadrant gates, then they must be smashing right through them…
"And if people can still violate four-quadrant gates, then they must be smashing right through them…"
No. If I recall correctly: The "anti-facing" gate (the one covering the side of the road which is opposite to you) is not full-length, to allow a car on the tracks as the gates come down to safely exit the crossing.
Naturally, violators learn to pick their way through the gaps...
The “anti-facing” gate (the one covering the side of the road which is opposite to you) is not full-length, to allow a car on the tracks as the gates come down to safely exit the crossing
Funny how this anticipated driver gaffe almost never happens in Ireland, Britain, or elsewhere. Their gates completely close off the tracks from the road. If I am not gravely mistaken, I believe that the “anti-facing” gate as described has some “give” that would permit the illegally trapped vehicle to push the gate out of the way with his/her vehicle while getting clear of the tracks. This ought to be done in the US instead of half-way (or three-quarter way as the case may be).
A design like that completely defeats the purpose of four quadrant gates, particularly if the gates are at the side of the road so the gap is near the center. With complete effective four quadrant gates, the closing is staggered so that the entrance gates close first, and what is being used in modern installations is sensors in the roadway at the crossing which prevent the exit gates from closing when they sense a vehicle within the gate area.
Tom
You mean St. Louis Crap Company? I'll take Siemens or Kinki Sharyo any day over St. Louis.
Budd, on the other hand...
They did the right thing insofar as PCCs. I would take it that they had a prejudiced bent there…
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Wish ya MUCH LUCK AND SANITY on your trip...
I would join ya'lls but I dont think I'm ready to get back into the system................. yet.
Cell Wars
I have concerns about the microwave radiation that other riders are exposed to. If several people on a train are using a cell phone, it's quite possible that the Stouffer's frozen dinner you are taking home might get cooked in the train.
The article refers to a website about cell phone manners.
Cell Manners
That site has a page with cell phone slang.
Cell Phone Slang
One of my favorites is:
Schitzophonia - the appearance given when one is walking down the street talking loudly on a cell phone using a not easily visible headset
I'd guess the NY Times folks handle that right?
Yep, then as they say in the song, "We'd be rich!"
i found out 2 things today. FRA made some changes to the rules. FRA has MANDATED that first of all, all trains must now have DITCH lights. this is why starting after 1995, notice, all locomotives have FOUR headlights. for example, the LIRR trains have the headlights on the top of the M1s and M3s, and the M7s. they were not added till 1995, when the order was given. the lights on the bottom are considered DITCH lights. these are the ones with the OSCILATORS when the horn is blown, but not all trains have OSCILATORS, but 4 headlights are NOW required on ALL railroad equipment STILL IN SERVICE AFTER 1995.
ALSO, ANTI RAILFAN WINDOWS ARE NOT RAILROAD CHOSEN. FRA AND FTA MANDATED A RULE STATING
NO RAILROAD OR SUBWAY OR ANY RAIL VEHICLE UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL HAVE GLASS FACING PASSENGERS IN FRONT CAR. IN THE EVENT OF HEAD ON COLLISION, PASSENGERS WILL BE SEVERLY INJURED. SO ALL RAIL AND SUBWAY EQUIPMENT WILL ALL HAVE TRANSVERSE CABS FROM NOW ON! THIS IS WHY THE R62 AND R62A AND R68 AND R68A WERE ALL FITTED TO HAVE FULL CABS!
I remember that Thermoking had units in some of the 44s.
R-32: Stone Safety/Thermo King (Phase I and Phase II listed together)
R-32: Sigma (10 GE cars; units were replaced last year, but I don't know the manufacturer)
R-38: Stone Safety
R-40: Thermo King
R-42: Stone Safety (4550-4749)/Thermo King (4750-4839)
R-42: Stone Safety (cars 4840-4949, which were overhauled in-house)
R-44: Stone Safety
R-46: Thermo King
R-68: Stone Safety
R-68A: Stone Safety
R-32 through R-42: 2 9-ton units (each ton=12,000 BTU)
R-44 through R-68A: 2 10-ton units
The above data reflects the cars as overhauled (R-32 through R-46) or delivered new (R-68, R-68A).
David
Thank you very much for the information.
Regards,
Al
David
I started out at Avenue M on the Brighton line,
and caught the local "M" train.
As I passed Prospect Park, I grabbed a shot of the Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Got off the "M" at Court Street,
and switched for the IRT.
From there headed to Bowling Green station, where they were renovating it with these bright red tiles.
At Bowling Green switched over for the South Ferry Shuttle,
which went to South Ferry through the inner loop.
Then onto the Staten Island Ferry and grabbed this shot of the skyline as the ferry pulled out.
Took a few shots of the Staten Island RR before heading home.
To see all the shots chick here:
http://subway.com.ru/avem2si/
I'll try to post some shots from my next trip soon.
Why did it took you 30 years to post this trip?
Just curious.
Rim shot!
Jimmy
Not if I don't come over to your house and post it all first! Why are you hiding this stuff for so long?? These photos are from the exact time period that is least represented here on nycsubway.org. This is the stuff that I'm most interested in seeing, "the beginning of the modern era." Please tell me you have more, maybe even a lot more??
Here's one I have, the only one:
Funny you mention that Kodak discontinued the marketing of Tri-X pan back in the 1980s. Kodak is dovetailing with the movie Seabiscuit the marketing black and white film again. Saw a Kodak ad on TV this past weekend.
I can’t tell you how many feet of 35mm Plus-X pan I shot using a SLR, developed and printed as a kid back in the 1960s.
John
Oops, I ment Bowling Green...
It's too bad the boat was the Hebert H. Lehman. Otherwise you could have had a pic of a Merell class boat.
--mark
I don't think so.
Orange: B,D,F,Q,S,V
I don't think there was ever an orange N, although there may have been, and I know there was no T in a color other than white.
I don't know where you get the others from.
Blue: A,B,C,D,E,F,H,K,S
Blue B,D,F?
Light Green: F,G
F?
Dark Green: 2,4,5,6,8,10,12,14,15
There is no green 2 or 12. There is no #15. I'm not even sure there's a 14 but I'm willing to believe it.
Red: 1,2,3,5,9,12,13
There is no Red 5.
Yellow: B,D,E,F,N,Q,R,S,W
Yellow E,F?
Was the SIRT ever supposed to get a letter
I mentioned the (Y) bullet, but for the SAS. I saw a publication years ago on the SAS and a R-46 type train with a (Y) bullet was on it. Of course, this was a drawing.
I heard a rumor that the abandoned (K) (2nd time) was to be used for the (L)line skip stop.
Bill "Newkirk"
I swear to G-d that I've seen another gray letter like the L that wasn't an S, but heaven help me if I can remember what it was. It was on an R-42, at Myrtle Avenue. I think it was either I or Y.
Jimmy
Q
Just a shame both coasts have HISTORICAL EVENTS which occurred on/about
the same time of week...
Since majority of us are from the EAST, there go the roost!
Thanks for keeping us in-tune with the WEST, tho!!
One cannot LEASE a Subway car, David GreenBrah
Why not? Many transit systems lease their buses, why not the same deal with subway cars?
Tom
I know that many buses at one tiem were purchased by the Port Authority and leased to the NYC Transit Authority. Those decals were displayed on the outside of these buses.
--Mark
Basically, I'd say the reason that most agencies can lease their buses but not their subway cars is...the buses can be resold at the termination of the lease, to anyother property on planet earth. Subway cars generally cannot be re-used at other agencies due to engineering differences.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ya got me stomped here...cuz otherwise if you mean the kind of car with rubber tires -- then you're posting at the wrong place...
...unless yer talking Kreisler 300s ;^)
D
R36s are rusting hulks of Carbon Steel, built to be thrown away in less than 40 years by a society that devalued all quality.
Those cars are bits of fine german engineering assembled in the state that still puts together most of the aircraft that the military uses. Their electrical systems are no doubt mostly solid state, so they'll last forever. They run on track far more forgiving than anything NYCTA has. In 100 years, with the right amount of maitenance, those trains could be looking every bit as good as they do today!
:-)
Yep. I love the development of new lines. Nothing better. But New York is the city where multiple three and four track rail transit lines are strewn about the terrain as if by whim. The Gold Line and its ilk are good. So is the HBLRT. But none of `em have the beauty of Chambers Street or the Sea Beach Line or the Queens Boulevard people-movin' monster of a transit line.
You left coast boys'll get your props. By n' by...
According to state park officials and crews at the site, storms packing winds up to 80 mph caused part of the 121-year-old Kinzua Viaduct to collapse, sending most of it crashing into the gorge below. "Essentially the middle part of the bridge is gone," said Gretchen Leslie, a spokeswoman for the state DCNR, which owns the bridge.
In June of 2002, the DCNR closed the viaduct to the Knox & Kinzua excursion train. In August of 2002, the DCNR banned pedestrians from the walkways as well. Following preliminary DCNR inspections which showed areas of 100 percent loss to rust, engineers determined that a strong-enough gust of wind could create enough lateral pressure to topple the 6,715,000-pound viaduct.
"Our fears were realized today and the winds collapsed a good portion of the bridge," Leslie said.
The span, made of iron in 1882 and rebuilt using steel in 1900, stretched almost a half-mile. At 301 feet in height, it stood almost as tall as the Statue of Liberty and remained the fourth tallest railroad bridge in the nation.
The Kinzua Viaduct -- 1,552 tons of iron -- was built in 94 days and when it was completed, some hailed it as the Eighth Wonder of the World. But since the last freight train crossed it in 1959, the bridge had fallen into disrepair.
The Kinzua Viaduct was on the National Register of Historic Civil Engineering Landmarks and National Register of Historic Places.
Kinzua Viaduct succumbing to age
Kinzua Viaduct was marvel of engineering
Gene Strecht, regional engineer for facilities, design and construction for DCNR [Department of Conservation and Natural Resources], said about 50 percent of the bridge is down. "It probably went down like dominos," he said.
Jimmy
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=&q=kinzua+collapse
What a tremendous loss.
Well, console yourself by riding another bridge, just as beautiful, and a little closer to home. It's the Moodna viaduct, and is a part of the Port Jervis line. It's still there, maintained with daily passenger and freight service:
I never rode over Kinzua. I walked across it, and of course I admired it from either end. Where would I go to get a photo like Mr. Vondrak's?
The pictured train is just pulling out of the Salisbury Mills station, heading towards Hoboken. The station is a couple hundred feet behind the trees, where the train is pulling out of.
This viaduct is about 3000 feet long, and it's visible for miles around. On a good day it's really as beautiful as the photo looks like.
The viaduct is the railroad right-of-way only; no pedestrian walkway of any kind.
Although you could take the train to the station itself, then walk out and take all the pictures you want, the timetable is, pretty much, rush hour peak direction only, so you'll be waiting quite a while for your return trip.
It's probably best to drive out there in midafternoon, and set up. The PM trains begin to arrive starting at about 5:20PM, on 30-40 minute headways. There should be plenty of photo ops right about this time of year, before it gets dark after 5PM (unless you like night shots, of course). You'll be on the Salisbury Mills side of the viaduct, and the trains will be arriving from the far side, out of Hoboken. You should be able to see them coming from about a mile away.
This page has plenty of pictures and details of the kinzua's ill fated death.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 11" X 5" red piece of glass that says EXPRESS is listed for $30.00
The 11" X 5" green piece of glass that says LOCAL is listed for $25.00
Does anyone else find this strange?
Link. You can buy platform benches now, too.
Yes, I find the high prices very strange :).
YES.
No, I don't find it strange, it makes perfect sense to me. I didn't comment on that because it was ALREADY COMMENTED ABOUT back in February! I gave you a link to the first post in the thread! And there were other threads started on the same topic within the following few days.
And why is what I did rude?
1. It WAS a whopper repost
2. IF he was a redbirdfan he would have known about the sale months ago just from constantly checking the surplus section of www.mta.info as I and I'm sure countless others did leading up to the posting there
3. I went out of my way to search the archives for him AND give him an HTML click-able link. That's a lot more than many of you will do for your fellow subtalkers.
Sometime soon NJT is supposed to take over the Clockers from Amtrak. I'm not sure if that means NJT will just take over the Penn Tunnel slots from the Amtrak trains and give them to MidTown Direct trains or some such BS, or if they'll actually maintain the clocker to Philly, perhaps serving Suburban Station. *hint hint*
Incidentally I saw one of these pulling into 30th St this afternoon, I couldn't get the number, I want to say 4512, but it was at the head of a long train, maybe 10 Amfleets with a cafe in there. I plan to go down there tommorow or wednesday with a camera and camp out at 30th St Station, Spring Garden St Bridge or Zoo Interlocking, on the zoo side.
Oh yeah, and three ALP46s camped out at 30th St engine yard last night, couldn't get the numbers cause it was dark and raining. I only knew they were ALP46s cause the Blue LED lights on the side, none of the Amtrak engines have those.
The train would be pulled by a GG1 and consist of serveral P70 coaches, maybe a parlor car, and possibly a dining car.
One of the more well know clocker was the one that left Philadelphia at 8 AM bound for NYP, making stops only at North Philadelphia and then non-stop to Newark, Penn Station.
It had parlor cars and a dining car while the railroad was PRR.
Jim K
Formally of Philadelphia
And no, they cost the same as a Regional, at least they did in my comparision of 148 and 627 tommorow, both were 48 bucks. BTW: Clockers are inthe 600 series, I think the Keystone trains (which make similar stops), are in the 650, and anything in the 100s is a Regional, AFAIK.
Ahhh! Now doesn't THAT sound cool; the classic NY subway jump-on-the-express-to-catch-the-preceeding-local-at-the-next-express-stop writ large! And on the national rail system to boot! Nice density of service there...
I didn't notice what type of motive power was on the consist, but I found it unusual to see NJT equipment on LIRR tracks.
Bill "Newkirk"
True, but there were no other trains on Tracks 17, 19, 20 and 21 when I spotted the NJT train. Something was going on.
Bill "Newkirk"
CG
CG
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
14 train sets
7 Redbirds (R36)
7 R62A
I saw at least 6 Redbird sets and I believe I saw a seventh. There were 7 R62A sets. The 7 is currently about somewhere between 50/50 R36/62A and 60/40 Redbird & 62A. It is still close to being spilt. I was excited today when I saw 4 Redbirds in a row. The birds still dominate. How much longer will this spilt (and the goodness) last?
Note: I don't actually recall if any of the eagle plaques at BB are still visible to the public, nevertheless, there are photos on this site.
Here's all of them together:
Speaking of monograms of the Contract 1&2 stations, a few share backrounds. I think Worth Street and Atlantic (and maybe Spring?)share a backround. I can't think of any other station that share's 18th Street's backround. I think 91st shares this backround with a few others on upper Broadway, like 137th (now gone) and some others. Any others share backrounds?
Jimmy
After a while, paint starts to look bad, so painting is bad if you don't want to dedicate money to repainting.
The former owner painted the cement steps up to my stoop. Don't know why. The paint is slowly peeling off. I could repaint, but I'd end up in the same situation.
Why are there R-142s and R-143s? I like having variety down there, but why do we need two different types so similar? Are their two different shapes due to an incompatibilty in IRT and BMT tunnels?
D
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Not that I don't like thorough information, but I find the punchy responces here in many ways handier for this kind of thing. Basically you've reinforced what was my suposition: Historically diferent specs. But I thought the MTA was trying to get away form that kind of thing.
D
For Division A and B appropriately.
I like having variety down there, but why do we need two different types so similar?
Ease of maintenance, essentially.
Are their two different shapes due to an incompatibilty in IRT and BMT tunnels??
No, actually. Many IRT tunnels can support BMT/IND cars, but require some modification. The shape is due to space constraints. It only makes sense to have the sides of IRT cars flat since space is a given for those cars. BMT/IND cars can get away with curves and bends without losing significant space for commuters.
Are you sure they are daylight fluorescent tubes ? I've seen some R-68's where the white light covers were replaced with new ones. The older covers do yellow when they age. So a newer cover gives a whiter looking light.
Bill "Newkirk"
Believe it or not, the bluer the color, the "hotter" it is deemed, and the redder, the cooler! We think of red as "hot", because it is the first visible color emitted when a metal is heated. But this is precisely because it is the "coolest" color! If you heat something further, it becomes white hot, then bluish, then a bit lavenderish! (like lighning!)
I would love to thank the V line for giving commuters an empty subway car option to travel on to 6th Avenue! The F line is always packed now riders don't have to get off and transfer to an express! The V is a fast line that is on time! (stats prove this) Also getting in Lex and 53rd on an empty V train with a seat! Beats an E train standing like sardines like you're in the middle of Tokyo Rush! The V, the line that does its job! Like you its 9 to 5! Really its 6:00 to 11:30 but! It works hard! Love the V Line!
*this has been a promotional commercial for the V Line! Remember V for Victory*
V Line Lover
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
But even if it does, more Queens local passengers are bound for 6th Avenue than for the Crosstown line. If it must be a choice between the G and the V, the V is the better choice.
*this has been a promotional commercial for the Q Line! Remember Q for Quickest*
avid
I see the new B and D since the Brighton Express fits the time profile
of the B and the West End will benefit since the D is full time (yeah...NO MORE SHUTTLE)
The Q that will stay
I dont know about the N if it already will go via tunnel off-peak what will stop MTA from doing the same onb weekday
I think the Q should do the tunnel since riders will have the B
The N should be full time since along with the new D it will be another option for riders on the M,R.
Not enough tunnelservice. After the Nassau st reconfiguration
have a new Z super express also step into Brooklyn after Broad st
You know it's possible to change the subject heading when you reply to a post...
Some Recent Spelling Errors
Secret
Staten
You can also edit the title if your post is no longer on the original topic
Don't forget the most mispelled word on subtalk (and many other places), definitely, most often mispelled as definately.
Peace,
ANDEE
You forgot to mention Freddy Kruger that this weekend service change is only effective until November, maybe sooner. So after that, the Q line shines across the mighty Manhattan Bridge once again.
I say send the V over the Bridge and down the Brighton Express.
The B should either terminate at 2nd Ave Houston or serve as the Culver Express
David
Longer headways, longer waits.
It's one thing to wait 10 minutes out on the branch line to your neighborhood. It's another to wait 10 minutes on a trunk in the CBD, and then have to transfer to that branch line with another long wait. In general, you get at least 12 tph on any track in the CBD. Whether you take the Nassau Loop or Broadway line, it will be much less than that once the plan is implemented. From 2 Broadway to Windsor Terrace, I plan to take the Lex to the A/C to the F, rather than the N/M/R to the F at 4th Avenue, once the change goes through.
In the afternoon rush, though, Whitehall will be quite unpleasant.
One some days I get in before 7:30. At those times you have the N and R. now. Then, it will be just the R.
(In the afternoon rush, though, Whitehall will be quite unpleasant).
When I get in at 7:30, I leave at 3:30. Now you have the R, but if the N comes first you can take it and switch to the R or M, whichever comes first, at Pacific to get to 4th Avenue. Then, it will just be the R.
(Doesn't mean its overutilized)
Not it doesn't, and I agree with the service plan overall. Not as much traffic to Lower Manhattan as to Midtown. But there is a loser here -- the Manhattan Bridge problem did provide a benefit to Brooklyn residents working Downtown.
I'm confused. Doesn't the N currently run express on 4th Avenue at all times? The N should never be stopping at 9th Street. For about an hour in the morning I think the N is supposed to run express on the local. Does it actually make local stops?
How about staying on the F to Jay and transferring to the A/C if one happens to be there, or doing the out-of-system transfer to the M/R at Lawrence if not?
When I get in at 7:30, I leave at 3:30. Now you have the R, but if the N comes first you can take it and switch to the R or M, whichever comes first, at Pacific to get to 4th Avenue. Then, it will just be the R.
Yes, I agree that your afternoon commute will be a pain. This is somewhat out of your way, but you could try the R/W up to Prince and walk a few blocks to the F. Or walk to Broad and wait by the crossover. If a SB M comes in first, take it. Otherwise, go up to Essex and catch the F there. More riding in either case, but only one transfer.
When I go in early, it is before the official rush hour schedule, and the N is on the local as it's overnight route. One of the things I have to figure out is whether to be at the front of the train to exit the N/R at Whitehall or the rear to exit Broad Street closer to Beaver. PA/CIS will sure be nice in 2012.
(How about staying on the F to Jay and transferring to the A/C if one happens to be there, or doing the out-of-system transfer to the M/R at Lawrence if not?)
Based on my experience, the climb up the stairs, then back down, takes more time than the stairs at 4th Avenue and 9th Street, so it doesn't pay. That Jay-Lawrence transfer will also be nice.
I take the 4/5 to the A/C to the F home when I leave before the peak. The 4/5 is too crowded otherwise. In the other direction, the time spent going under Broadway to the 4/5 southbound, then having to go down to go up at Bowling Green, negates the benefit. Northbound it's a fast exist from Bowling Green right to 2 Broadway.
Of course, lots of time I walk to/from the IRT or BMT just for the hell of it, rather than take the F at all.
All I can say is, when I go in early, the N is on the local track, and I think that's how its supposed to be.
If the N actually runs local in the early morning rush now, it might continue to run local (and via tunnel) in the early morning rush next year. We'll see.
It also has to be taken into account the downsizing of the Nassau st
line betwn the Williamsburg Bridge and Broad st. What will happen is the line will become two tracks and one will be service while another will be ripped out. This is the MTA solution to deal with an ever inefficient operation with complex switches and tracks stub end at Canal st. The final layout of the line will be
Track No.1 (southbound local) remain as is
Track No.2 (southbound express) will be the new northbound localsharing the island platforms with south track #1
Track No.3 (northbound express) will cease to exist in addition to the Northbound platforms getting shut for good.
Track No.4 (northbound local) This will be a service track for equipment moving
Pssst..... thats a good thing, now the MTA has to run something through that crap tunnel all the time keeping the N express a success.
Though the other option is a terminal is Myrtle ave +transfer and then everyone gets screwed.lol (maybe the brown RR, the M, the J?
Incidentally, its IRT cousin across town, while not in nearly as abysmal a shape as the BMT station, is also crying out for a rehab. I just hope they don't notice the lone red column with white sign at the front end of the SB platform by the local track. Here's a blurry photo (sorry!):
I'm also somewhat comforted that even David Greenberger gets blurry photos sometimes!
They can always up the number of R trains if that proves to be the case. Or -- I'd prefer this -- extend the Z to Brooklyn as I proposed in my version of the plan, replacing the brown Rs that used to run at rush hour to Chambers.
My suggestion also included running the N via the rathole nights and weekends, to reduce traffic on the bridge and have an even load on each side while having more service Downtown. Got my way on the overnights, lost out to Sea Beach Fred on the weekend.
That's the proposal for overnight hours. For weekends, the plan is via bridge and THEN local after going through a switch north of Canal.
I have a feeling that NYCT will be watching this closely and will make adjustments as necessary -- either sending the N through the tunnel (the frugal option) or running the W on weekends and putting the N on the express track (the generous, and IMO less likely, option).
That's why I didn't bring up this point in my email to NYCT -- this change can be easily implemented later.
The change I'm pushing for -- calling the full-time Concourse service the B rather than the D, thereby allowing the Brooklyn services to return to their 1967-2001 routes, has to be implemented on day one.
B operates at all times from Bedford Park (weekdays 6 AM to 11 PM) or 205th (all other times) via Concourse local, CPW local, 6th Av. express, bridge (stopping at Dekalb nights and weekends) 4th Av. express (local nights), West End to Coney Island
D operates only on weekdays 6 AM to 11 PM from 205th via Concourse express (rush, mid-days, eves to 11PM in peak direction), CPW express, 6th Av. express, bridge, Brighton Express to Brighton Beach.
I favor a very similar idea, but with the B terminating at 145th St. mid-days and evenings with the D running local on Concourse at those times. The disadvantage of this is that it is less consistent than David's plan: 3 different terminals for the B (but the past, existing, and future situation for the A is three highly disparate terminals). The disadvantage to David's plan is the extra expense of running 2 Concourse services. OTOH, the extra expense of David's plan could be alleviated in part by having the D running on the same track on Concourse as the B in the non-peak direction but not stopping at local stops. This would be the most consistent service plan for the Concourse but would require the proper train scheduling in the non-peak direction.
As for the weekend N, from what I've seen of the B'way local stations between Pacific and Canal on weekends, I think you can get away with having the N run express through this stretch. Between Canal and 57th though, you gotta have two weekend trains running local.
David
1. Despite what surverys may indicate, the Sixth Ave line will have heavier (possibly MUCH heavier) ridership than Broadway on weekdays. The proposed B in particular will be packed because it's the Brighton AND 6th Ave Express. The fact that 6th Ave has much more corporations than B'way and the fact that Grand Street (unlike Canal Street) lies in the middle of business district where many people work will play major roles in 6th Ave being very popular. I'll bet the house on this.
2. The proposed Q route isn't gonna see too much ridership on weekdays because it's the Brighton Local with not as many corporations (compared to 6th Ave) along its Broadway route.
3. The R may conceivably work okay during rush...until it's hit with delays (which seems to happen A LOT with the R). Then Bklyn riders heading into lower Manhtn will be heated. They'll wonder where the other B'way Local went. The end result may have more people transferring at Atlantic for IRT trains into lower Manhtn. This is exactly what Brooklyn IRT riders don't need.
4. The M will still have pathetic ridership on the West End. It may have better ridership between 36th and Chambers during rush, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
4. The M will still have pathetic ridership on the West End. It may have better ridership between 36th and Chambers during rush, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
The M via West End seems so out of place. Should it terminate at Chambers once again in the middays, that's debatable.
(M) cut it to Metroplitan-Myrtle shuttle at ALL TIMES. rename it the (S)
the new M would be rush hour along Brighton line and terminate at Chambers st
The (J/Z) the j should maintain its route except as an express btwn Broad st and Cresent (sound weird? I'll go further in the next round)
The Z would be extended to Bay Parkway and cut back to Cresent St in Brooklyn and reverse on middle track
ESSEX ST -proceed through track J4 service and possibly salvage the canal st stop, MANY TRAINS WOULD ORIGINATE FROM ESSEX-transfer to F,Z
MARCY AVENUE
MYRTLE AVENUE-transfer to M shuttle
BROADWAY JUNCTION -then switch to two track line and bypass all stops to Cresent, Jand Z are far apart and would catch up until
CRESENT ST -this is where the Z local terminates and reverses on the S curve btwn Cresent and Cypress Hills
THEN ALL STOPS TO JAMAICA CENTER- combined service from Broad st as well as Essex will provide ample headway with increased demand
This will entice any E train or LIRR rider!
You'd cut off the M from Manhattan, and block the middle track at Myrtle in the process (so much for your proposed express).
The new M would be used by few except to get to the next Brighton express stop.
Broadway and Fulton Street local stops would lose access to Jamaica.
Through passengers from Jamaica to Manhattan would gain maybe three minutes over what they have now.
A) the 4 th ave line would be better served
B) as far as riders are concerned(even on the J),the Z doesn't exist
it makes 7-8 trips within an 1 1/4 hr window, thats BS
Also an express from Jamaica Center would be too different from
the train which makes all the stops, So I look at how the 6 train is set up in the Bronx and find my solution to cut the Z to Cresent
not to tie up trains to Bay Parkway.
C0 the current M layout only allows the J/Z to bypass btwn myrtle and Marcy, my proposal is to be express not only up to East New AYork but also to Cresent. It wouldn't be needed to replace platforms and add a third track. This is my alternative to the "Z super-express" which realistically will not work as it screws riders along the J line only benefitting the few from Jamaica
David
I recall that we discussed the topic a few years ago, but I don't recall the conclusion. Why not do it? It seems to have many pros and few cons.
Especially if the decision is made to extend the Archer Avenue line further out a three track Jamaica line should be in order.
Too bad there's no station between Sutphin and 121, otherwise you could just send all Archer's buses to that station to discourage anyone from transferring to the E, leaving it for Jamaica workers/residents and LIRR transferrees.
That's the point. You can add trains to the J/Z if you have them. You can't add trains to the E/F. One of the main ideas of Archer Avenue was to get people going to Lower Manhattan to use the J/Z, and relieve crowding on the Queens Blvd line. It was a good idea.
But it hasn't worked. At City Planning, I had a boss who lived in Kew Gardens equadistant from the E/F at Union Turnpike or the J/Z at 121st. When skip stop service was inaugerated, he tried the Z for a while. However, he found that he could get to Brooklyn-Bridge/Chambers faster using the E/F to the 6 to the 4/5 -- going miles out of the way and with two changes of train vs. a one-seat ride. So we went back to taking the three most congested lines on the system -- the QB express, and the Lex express and local.
With a 3rd track that went straight down Jamaica rather than curving onto Fulton, on the other hand, you could run 6 J trains per hour local full time, plus 12 Z trains per hour express in the peak direction. It would be vastly fewer stops from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, along with fewer miles and a one-seat ride. That would do the trick.
Not an entirely fair comparison, since 121st is a skip-stop station, so he had to wait twice as long there for a train as he would at Sutphin or Jamaica Center, while Union Turnpike has the F as well as the E, so he had to wait half as long there as he would at Sutphin or Jamaica Center.
From Jamaica, the J/Z takes less time than the E-6-4/5.
Not exactly. The schedule is:
E from Jamaica to Lex -- 29 min.
6 from 51st to 42nd -- 1 min tops.
4/5 from 42nd to Bk Bridge -- 8 min.
total of 38 minutes.
J/Z Jamaica Center to Chambers -- 46 min.
Now add the waits. J/Z max. 5 minutes if trains are spaced evenly.
E = 5, 6 = 3, 4/5 = 2, plus a two minute walk E-6, total of 12.
That's 50 minutes for the E/Lex, 51 for the J/Z. On one hand, the J/Z gives you a seat and less crowding. On the other hand, you are more likely to hit the max wait once than to hit the max wait three times, so eight minutes of waiting is more realistic on the E-Lex route. Then there is familiarity.
If an express knocked 10-15 minutes off the J/Z route, which it might, that's different.
An express wouldn't save 10-15 minutes. Even the Queens Boulevard express doesn't save 10-15 minutes! And whatever savings the express offers, don't forget to subtract off the current 5-minute savings due to skip-stop.
The proposed express wouldn't change travel time by much. What it would change is perception: everyone thinks expresses are fast-fast-fast and locals are slow-slow-slow, or that an express is somehow better in some way than a local. I don't think it's responsible of a transit agency to spend millions of dollars to be a psychiatrist.
I recall reading a thread on the Straphangers board about a year ago, asking 7 riders how much time people thought they saved by riding the express instead of the local. Some answers were in the 30-minute vicinity. The local only takes 34 minutes or less to begin with! And this is coming from a self-selected group of subway aficianados. The reason the E-6-4/5 route is widely preferred over the J/Z route is that it seems much faster, not that it is much faster, or any faster at all.
Express trains have other values. You roll along instead of stopping and starting, having your insides pushed and pulled to and fro, and having to move as people push off and onto the train. I'd bet most people would take a non-stop that rolled along at an even 18 miles per hour instead of a local that averaged 20.
(I don't think it's responsible of a transit agency to spend millions of dollars to be a psychiatrist.)
The customer is always right.
The MTA isn't a business which is competing for customers.
Aww, come on man. Sure it is. Competing against cars, the car culture. Expresses ARE good for the business. The system is DESIGNED to make express service available. I'm with Larry Littlefield here. I'd even take an express going slower than the adjacent local trains, just for the longer period of non-jostling time.
According to data I saw, subway riders are as likely to have cars as other New Yorkers. They don't have a viable alternative because they work in Manhattan or similar places, they are not rich and cannot afford the high cost of parking there, and they are not in one of the government positions or unions that provides a free parking space in Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, or the Hub at public (and neighborhood expense).
Rationalization. I assure you, the crowds that pack onto the E rather than ride the J/Z or R/V don't do so out of comfort -- they do so out of perceived time savings.
I'd bet most people would take a non-stop that rolled along at an even 18 miles per hour instead of a local that averaged 20.
I'd bet you're right -- not because the express is more comfortable, but because most people would be unable to accept the fact that the local was faster.
Those who do manage to accept that fact would ride thel local.
The customer is always right.
Not when the customer is being subsidized. Not when one customer's irrational choice impedes a different customer's rational choice.
If you have a seat, it doesn't matter much. If your train is held up at red signals, then the J is more comfortable than the E.
Even the Queens Boulevard express doesn't save 10-15 minutes!
A straight Jamaica Ave Express track would only have timers between Chauncey St and Pennsylvania Av. The current local tracks have slow timers from Cypress to Crescent, entering Alabama, and from Alabama to Chauncey, plus entering Chauncey. An express would not only pick up very good speed on a virtually timerless run, it would bypass all the speed impediments and the S-curved route that the local has.
And whatever savings the express offers, don't forget to subtract off the current 5-minute savings due to skip-stop.
Sutphin to Woodhaven
Local: 9-10 min
Skip-stop: 9-10 min
Express*: 7-8 min
Woodhaven to Broadway Junction:
Local: 15-16 min
Skip-stop: 12-13 min
Express*: 8-9 min
Broadway Junction to Myrtle:
Local: 6-8 min
Skip-stop: 6-7 min
Express*: ~5 min (if scheduled to avoid junction conflict at Myrtle)
Total running time (JC to Myrtle):
Local: ~32.5 min
Skip-stop: 28.5 min
Express: ~20.5 min
Estimated savings: 8 min
* = estimated
Total run time of Z express (JC to Broad): ~38 min
Total run time of E (JC to WTC): ~52 min
Riders at 15 stations will lose avg. 2.5 minutes.
Riders at 5 stations will gain approx. 8 minutes.
Those 5 stations have high ridership.
ARRIVING FROM TERMINAL STOP TO THE CITY IN ~45min
I dont care what the schedule on the J says
Skip stop takes almost 1 hour and a quarter
Regular off-peak takes hour and half
those shuttle busses----FORGET IT__PAY THE $5.oo FOR LIRR+transfer
The typical express saves about 30 seconds per local station bypassed.
Sutphin to Woodhaven
Local: 9-10 min
Skip-stop: 9-10 min
Express*: 7-8 min
That's a savings of 2 minutes over 3 stations, or 40 sec. per station. Not that unrealistic.
Woodhaven to Broadway Junction:
Local: 15-16 min
Skip-stop: 12-13 min
Express*: 8-9 min
That's minus 7 minutes for the combined 8 stations skipped ( >4 min), the more direct route ( > 1 min) and the lack of timers for the curve ( ~ 2 min).
Broadway Junction to Myrtle:
Local: 6-8 min
Skip-stop: 6-7 min
Express*: ~5 min (if scheduled to avoid junction conflict at Myrtle)
Honestly, I feel this was an underestimate. All 4 local stops can be bypassed within 4 minutes, the rest is timers. (Queens-bound, this may be different, because of the grade from Chauncey to Halsey which would work in reverse). But then again there is the junction conflict at Myrtle Ave. If an M is sent in front of the express, that will likely kill all the time savings by the time it clears, and the express is given the lineup to enter Myrtle.
True, since the E runs on a more frequent basis and makes express stops but now if it gets stuck behind a F train for example the savings goes down considerably. I prefer the J/Z over the E into Manhattan for the reasons of a more better chance of getting a seat & the chances of not getting stuck behind a train is less likely. If that 3rd track were to be built the Jamaica express would beat the E
by at least 10 minutes guaranteed.
BTW, the J/Z line was an initial success when opened. A few things have changed since then:
- More and more outer Jamaica Ave line residents use the J to access the E to Manhattan. When the Willy B closure forced all these riders to detour to Jamaica, many kept doing so after the bridge re-opened.
- The new signal system slowed down trains even more, especially around Chauncey St and the Crescent St S-curve.
- J/Z service has been cut from it's 1989-90 levels.
How many of those are east of Cypress Hills? My suggestion is for the third track to rise and continue down Jamaica Avenue, over the sidewalk next to the cemetary the over the parking lane next to the three blocks of stores.
(NIMBYism will kill any attempt because there will be no intermediary express stops from Jamaica to ENY, and building one will require expensive radical reconstruction.)
I would suggest having the express track rise before Cypress Hills station, with side platforms on an upper level there. Those in Queens could transfer to the express at Cypress Hills. Those in Cypress Hills could transfer to the express at ENY. The express would run Jamaica/Sutphin, Cypress Hills, ENY, Myrtle, Marcy, Manhattan. Those riding the whole way would save 8 stops vs. the Z.
In other words, we have another overestimation. Don't worry; this thread is full of them. Eventually they'll cancel each other out.
(FWIW, the last time I tested my intuition on a stopwatch, I was off by one second. Not bad, eh?)
I really would like to see the Chrystie St connection reopen to link
6th Ave and the Broadway line, only issue being that 600' trains cannot ride the J or M. running trains uptown already eliminates transfers to the F and provides quicker service UPTOWN where off-peak riders actually go. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE LOVE THE A,C,L AT BROADWAY JUNCTION.
The M, its really a waste of subway cars, a really inefficient and inconsistent operation. It simply doubles on the lack of ridership on the J into Manhattan. IMO, an across the platform transfer is no problem, It works everyday from the G & A/c at Hoyt St but I'm always an opponent to long walks through hot passagways. Though really a person who goes to work and watches TV at home could use the workout>
Maybe we are going about this in the wrong way. Maybe as some suggest the barriers to a third track on the Jamaica line are too high. Maybe if the designers had foresight during the dual contracts era our ideas about a Jamaica Express would be made more viable. History did not turn out that way and some comments made by others lead me to believe that opposition to additional elevated trackage would be high-especially express elevated trackage.
Maybe the solution lies in the LIRR itself. For those going downtown it seems that they should disembark at Flatbush Avenue not Jamaica. Maybe offering more service along that route for downtown-bound customers should be examined. I assume East Side Access will allow more Midtown-bound trains too. Hopefully this will allow an increase in NYC service by LIRR too. How close are these routes to capacity?
Putting the E and J right under Jamaica station meant that subway riders in Queens and northern Brooklyn had easier access to the LIRR.
It must be easy for you to dismiss whole communities with ignorant, prejudiced bullshit like that. I wish I could do that. Life would be so much simpler.
"I used to attend school in Brooklyn and never was I convinced that the J would be faster than the E to the horrible transfer to the G at Court Sq to travel from work."
Maybe New York isn't the right place for you. You could try Farmingville, where there are people of a like mind, or maybe one of those redneck towns in the Florida armpit (Imean, panhandle).
Methinks that statement is a tad hypocritical! After all by knocking a whole community you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing poster 9108 is doing. And, by the way, with the exception of those three criminal arsonists the other day, and those two guys who beat up the day laborers last year, (one of them from Queens) you cannot call Farmingville's residents ignorant or prejudiced. They just don't want day laborers drinking and peeing all over their lawns and streets. If I lived in Farmingville and owned a home I would feel the same. The worst thing you can call those people are NIMBY'S which on this board seems to be a bad word. Plus, I don't think everyone in Farmingville even feels that way.
Plus, not every redneck town in Florida is full of rednecks.
Of course, when there's a hot sun out, my neck is always red. Gotta use that SPF 30 stuff!
While working on the census, I was assigned to do field work with a woman who lived in Northside. I had assumed that the college-educated Manhattan wanabees were moving south of the Willie B (where the Hasidm are), since the housing stock is better there. I was surprised to find that they were moving to the area around the L stop on Bedford Avenue.
Anyway, the Willie B subway rehab and shutdown was going on at the time. I was amazed when she told me that it was a big subject of conversation in the bars and clubs, that the hipsters of Billyburb were AFRAID of the J/M/Z riders who would suddenly be taking their train.
Now I can understand people from Farmingdale being afraid to share a train with J/M/Z riders. But L train riders? Since when is the L exclusive?
Anyway, we also surveyed the beautiful neighborhood of Stuyvesant Heights. I asked her why anyone would live in Northside when they could live there. She said I had a point. I hope if a bunch of people who AREN'T Black, but are WEARING black show up there the locals won't mad at me as a result of this post.
It may be that the J/Z (I wouldn't really include the M) has a bad reputation because some not-so-nice neighborhoods can be seen from the train. While the L also runs through some lower-income 'hoods, much of its route is underground so the areas aren't visible.
Well, the J has a bad rap. Yes, Broadway used to look like Berlin after the war, but anyone that tries to say that now hasn't been there lately:
And yes, most of the buildings have windows now. But you are right, in the past it did look like a war zone.
Larry, Ron mentioned Farmingville, not Farmingdale. There's a difference of about 50 miles!
Uhm, what is hell that supposed to mean? That's just as ludicrous as him saying that all the neighborhoods that the J and M travel through are "full of homeless crazy people".
Hey, Ron In Bayside, cool it. That's a shamelessly antagonistic remark. Ain't a ONE of us SO dang perfect and righteous that we can make all-emcompassing statements like that. Talk about your predjudices...oh, but I forgot, as long as the target group is those evil "ice people", it's perfectly find and dandy to JUDGE AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE in a vile and hateful manner.
I don't go for it. Not here. This is about trains. Please keep your caustic comments to yourself, Ron In Bayside.
Farmingville's the next town over from me. I really wouldn't say that it's lower middle income, house prices being what they are. The influx of Mexican day laborers hasn't had that much of an effect on property values, as far as I know. While you'll still see plenty of Mexican men hanging around the 7-11's in the morning looking for day work, others seem to be gradually becoming more mainstream. A few years ago you'd see them riding bicycles everywhere, but now many of them have cars.
And it has done that. Unfortunatley, the connection has also allowed Jamaica line riders to use the Queens Blvd line as an alternative, thus cancelling any advantage out.
Putting the E and J right under Jamaica station meant that subway riders in Queens and northern Brooklyn had easier access to the LIRR.
Only for Queens. The old Supthin Blvd el station was an insignificant short block away.
Talk about having a plan backfire!
She could take the 6 north from Canal to 51st. She should give it a try, and let the board know which is better.
Build my express track high over Jamaica Avenue and it will be no contest.
1. E Train
2. Q10
3. Q37
Uh oh, sounds like relay rooms -- the rooms that hold all the switches that comprise the non-electronic computer that is a conventional signal system. The J was resignaled in the early 1990s, and if those are relay rooms, they aren't going anywhere. The cost of moving them is hugely expensive. (One massive cost of signal improvements -- you need to build these rooms for the new system while the old signal system still operates -- can't re-use the old rooms because there can be no downtime).
A single new express track down Jamaica Avenue W. of the Crescent Street curve would be unaffected by such relay rooms. As for the area in Woodhaven and Richmond Hill, maybe the expresses could skip-stop through there.
...Example of one of these at Forest Parkway:
A single new express track down Jamaica Avenue W. of the Crescent Street curve would be unaffected by such relay rooms.
You know, I was thinking about this. Just because there is room for an express track between Cypress Hills and Sutphin, doesn't mean there has to be one there, and at the same time, express service could still be added to the line.
I propose this idea:
Build the new bypass track from Broadway Junction and Elderts Lane. This new single track would have no stations, would leave Broadway Junction, and rise over the Manhattan local track at Cypress Hills, and slowly decend between Cypress Hills and Elderts, with Elderts being the first stop after Broadway Junction, just before Elderts, the line would again become 2 tracks.
Eliminate J/Z skip stop service, however, keep the Z. The Z would run in peak direction making all stops between Jamaica Center and Elderts Lane. It would then run express between Elderts and Marcy, with a stop at Broadway Junction and Myrtle. (This would also revive service on the existing unused express track between Myrtle and BJ). The J would run local all times, making all stops, except peak express between Myrtle and Marcy like it does now (where the M picks up the slack). This would eliminate the slow movement the Crescent curve causes, would cut a considerable amount of stations out for Z riders. It would be similar to how the 5 runs express on the White Plains line. It makes all stops between Nereid and East 180th, and then express afterwards, much like this new Z express would run.
So what do you guys think?
Not so for the few blocks between the end of the cemetary and Broadway Junction. There you have older houses lining short streets up the hill. Most of residences on the north side of Jamaica Avenue, however, are actually well up a steep hill, and would be affected.
First, there can't be a Z express, an express on the J will simply be the J express thereby having the designations (J)&diamond. It seems that there is a system but people aren't systematic about it.
Really, how often will a full length express be available at the stops versus the now unpopular local. It will sort of be like the #7. Riders btwn Cresent and Jamaica will not be compelled to ride the local component of the service, trains will continue to terminate at Broadway Junction as they do now. What will happen is this express will be more frequent and riders at the local stations will wait longer than they do now for skip-stop. U may need to consider ridding of some popular stops in order to reduce crowding.
How long will it take to reconfigure and how much disruption to service can be anticipated along the J. This isn't a Port Authority project, the MTA contracts things to be done in an extremely long duration of time. It will be a while until the Nassaui st line is reconfigured and more time is cut from the trip. Focus on Broad St to Broadway Junction and ask yourself, "Can this happen TODAY"
Fine, call it what you like. That's not the point of the idea. The point was the new express service and track between Cypress hills and BJ, over Jamaica Ave. I think calling it the Z would be less confusing, but if it must be diamond J, then that it must. The R160s would be around by that time anyway, so it doesn't matter if it's on the rollsigns or not.
Really, how often will a full length express be available at the stops versus the now unpopular local.
It would increase service at most stations, not decrease it. Express and locals will stop at every station between Elderts and JC. Then the express will leave the current J route, and run express over Jamaica Ave to BJ, while the local J will stop at every station, whereas now with skip stop it skips stations. The only station that would loose service is Crescent Street itself which currently is a J and Z station with skip-stop service.
It will sort of be like the #7. Riders btwn Cresent and Jamaica will not be compelled to ride the local component of the service
That's true with any express route. It's the nature of express-local service. Why should it be any different on the Jamaica line than it is on Queeens Blvd, the White plains line, etc. Express station passengers have a choice between express or local, or whatever comes first. Think of the white plains line. the 5 is express, and the 2 is local. What would make the Elderts to JC section of a J/Z(diamond J) service different from the 241 to East 180th St section where both the 2 and 5 stop at every station before the 5 runs express south of 180th?
As for disruption, that'll happen with any project. Most of this project however would take place on Jamaica Ave between BJ and Cyp Hills, far from the current J line. The final connection to BJ, and the work between Cypress Hills and Elderts could be done like any other project that they do now, on weekends etc, much like the L reconfiguration was done at Atlantic.
Why? There is already a third track in the station, and it continues a ways to the east before merging into the other two. You'd just have to lift it high enough to cross over the inbound track west of Alabama Avenue, and away you go.
Maybe not needed now, but as the neighborhoods around the Myrtle and Broadway Els have begun to revive themselves, maybe it's something worth looking at in the future...
There already is a third track between Marcy and Broadway Junction. The section between Myrtle and Marcy is in regular use, while the section between Myrtle and BJ is not in regular use, although it is used for an occasional bonus express run (which I have been liucky to get a few times) when there is a problem on the local track, and deadhead moves:
After BJ, the center track leaves the station and ends, merging with the locals, although there is a never used express trackway extending past that and into the Alabama Ave station, and stops. See rising trackway in distance to right of Alabama station:
Of course that could not be used for my idea, as I would not have a third track added over the two track section of el on Fulton street, but rather take the shortcut over Jamaica Ave to Cypress Hills to avoid all the curves.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_1360.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_1361.jpg
Middle track comes from ENY Yard:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_1360.jpg
I know that you want the third track in the Jamaica Av.
Here's the link of ENY/BJ track map:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/eny.gif
Yeah but, all they have to do is connect the proposed jamaica Ave track to the beginning of that never used trackway to Alabama, but instead swing the new section to Jamaica. The express track leads right to that thing. You can see it in the distance in that photo.
This photo has that never used trackway right above the train. The new connection would not have to come all the way to here (Alabama) because at that point we are already on Fulton Ave.
The trackmap won't show that Alabama Structure, or how it connects to the center track at BJ.
Tunnel cos of the neighbourhood on Jamaica Av.
CH: To avoid costs
The single track could be built over the unused sidewalk adjacent to the cemetaries, and Jamaica Avenue is primarily commercial. If built of concrete, like Airtrain, those south of Jamaica would be unaffected -- they hear more noise from the existing trains two blocks to the south.
As for the few blocks beyond the cemetary on the north side of the street and at the bottom of the hill, the people there would have a legitimate beef. But you could probably buy everyone off for a fraction of the price of a tunnel. Indeed, once could make a public policy case for buying all the buildings at the bottom of the hill, tearing them down, and selling them for a large commercial use, like a supermarket.
What about Highland Park?
Cypress Hills riders would also benefit, since they could pick up the express at Broadway Junction. If riderhship increased, there could be 12 Z expresses along with the 6 J locals, rather than 6 and 6.
avid
But there's more to it than that. Currently there are two routes to Penn Station from the Archer corridor but none from the Hillside corridor. The Archer corridor is accessible by two different subway lines from Manhattan, yet it's the Hillside corridor that gets the line with fewer transfer opportunities. I don't see how that makes sense.
J stations rank, folowed by rank in system
1 Jamaica center 19
2 Sutphin 74
3 Marcy 198
4 Flushing 240
5 Myrtle 247
6 Crescent 284
7 Halsey 305
8 Forest Parkway 332
9 Elderts 331
10 Woodhaven 341
11 Gates 342
12 Norwood 347
13 Cleveland 351
14 Kosciuzko 362
15 Van Siclen 377
16 111th 378
17 104 380
18 Lorimer 382
19 Alabama 388
20 121st 389
21 Hewes 391
22 Chauncey 402
23 Cypress Hills 410
Consider that according to the 2000 Hub Bound survey only 49,400 took the train into Manhattan over the Willie B each day, compared with 86,000 for the 14th Street tunnel, 126,000 for the Cranberry Tube, and 198,000 for the 53rd Street tunnel.
Lots of J/Z stations are also proximate to the A/C, the L, the E, or the G. My guess is that, with the exception of the G, most riders choose the other lines.
In fact, in February '02 the G at Broadway drew over 3,000 riders during the day. Hewes and Lorimer, on the J/Z, put together only drew just over 4,000.
WHAT, "S" for "Sadistic"?
Most of the M's passengers are between Knickerbocker and Metropolitan. This would make the train almost empty at Wyckoff as all these people would probably head for the already overcrowded L. So you will cut of all direct Manhattan service to those stations north of Myrtle-Broadway, and add an extra (basically useless) train to the Brighton line, which already had direct Manhattan service with much better destinations than just Chambers St.
I considered your plan as dumbest. Why in the heck on earth you want to cut M off from lower eastside manhattan. What about the Maspeth and Middle Village people? How will they able to go to work in manhattan? Do you how much time you wasted by getting off at myrtle and tranfer to J to get to manhattan? You think Maspath and Middle Village enjoy wasted their 5 10 precious mins by getting off from one train (M)in one spot and then transfer to another train (J) and then again wasted another 5 -10 min get off from that same train (J) and tranfer to the same letter route train (M) to reach the south of the city. How dumber can that be? And who would want to risk losing their job by considering such daily commuter alternatives? Do you have any idea what they will think when they read your plan? I pretty sure they will laugh at u and said hey this idiotic guy thinks he can improve the JMZ Nassau Service in his own ways and idiotic ideas? C'mon this plan of your really bugs the crap out of every M riders including me.
If you were to write this to the TA. I gauranteed you they would just tossed it to the trash be4 reading it.
WEEKENDS
EVENINGS
MIDDAY- your almost there, Manhattan riders dont depend on this train, They use the 4,5,6,j/z,N,R,Q,,W trains
Why are you ending the Z at Crescent? Jamaica riders will have their service cut in half during peak hour.
Z trains should not skip Canal St, Fulton St, or Chambers St. Doesn't make any sense. I suppose you could skip Bowery (or hell, just close it altogether), but it won't help much.
The J/M/Z ideas i have:
J Broad-(Local)-Myrtle-(reverse peak skip-stop midday and rush hour;else
local)-ENY-(midday and rush hour skip-stop;other times Local)-Jamaica C
M Metro-Myrtle-(except nights; Bway peak express 4Av local)-9 Av-(rush
hour)-Bay Pkway
Z Broad-(peak express)-Myrtle-(peak express;reverse peak skip-stop)-ENY-
(skip-stop)-Jamaica Center middays & rush hour
skip-stop stations as they are on current service
peak-direction change midday like on the Flushing Line
R68A -200 cars(5001-5200) most likely to be on new D--other candidate the B or N
R68- 425 cars(2500-2924) will be on the Q, N and FAS
R32- the 150 cars have merged to the Queens BLVD line
R40- (4150-4449) these I would think will be on the new B and the remainder on the weekday W mixed with off peak N
R40M- (4450-4549) these will be on the N/W
R42- (4550-----) I dont know how many will be in CI exclusive from M service
Well if if must leave the West End.....
BROAD STREET!!!.......BROAD STREET!!!..........BROAD STREET!!!
BROAD STREET!!.........BROAD STREET!!..........BROAD STREET!!
Or perhaps its possible that Brown R will be making their return as part-time permanent Nassua/Bay Ridge Service. Ever wonder why TA has shutdown 4 servia via to/from Brooklyn number of time the past weeks. Naaaahhh!
The SIR should actually have a letter on the light Blue
People will actually believe its a subway and may visualize
skip-stop service. Maybe the way SIR runs on a two track
line should be the solution for the J/Z. I like
trains that make 5 stops and skip the rest, though service at
individual stops is less frequent
The Electric City Trolley itself leaves from the same platform as the Steamtown Excursion train but on the track closest to the roundhouse. Former Red Arrow Center-Door 76 is the car currently in service. The present run goes about 2 1/2 miles most of which is on the former ROW of the Layrel Line interurban and includes a nearly one mile long tunnel. The line is shared with the Delaware-Lackawanna Railroad and since the track has to be strong enough to support mainline freightit provides for a great trolley ride. The trip ends a short distant outside the tunnel but by next year should go all the way to a visitor's center whcih is five miles from Steamtown. The crew was very friendly and extremely knowledeable about electric operations in Pennsylvania and elsewhere. On the return trip a stop is made on a short branch line to the Iron Furnace where a short tour is given of the great blast furnaces.
There is also a well built shed to house car 76 when not in use.
Pay a vist to Scranton.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Tell the truth, didn't #76 sound like a subway car in that tunnel ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone remember anything like that? Or was he hungry and imagined a seafood meal?
Rather than having the best of both worlds, consumers turned their nose up at clamb wool, complaining that it "spelled fishy" while diners thought that clamb chops were "too mushy," and that having the succulent meat attached to pieces of shell was "too weird, man."
Victor Fishenstein, the biologist-entrepreneur who developed the clamb, was tragically killed at a "surf n' turf in a single organizsm" promotion when he was became entangled in the soggy wool of a giant clamb and was pulled beneath the waves.
Paul... I'm not sure if Fishenstein's death was truly tragic. He had no business messing with things that were best left in the Creator's hands.
Are we talking sea food or barnyard food?
Jimmy
Fifth Avenue ENDS at 39th Street and is blocked by a cemetary,
and then jogs over to Third Avenue, with other service going out on the Culver and West End Lions.
Only thing I can't figure out is why the elevated was not built on Fourth Avenue to begin with.
Elias
No, it isn't. 5th Avenue runs continuously from Atlantic Avenue to 95th Street.
I suggest you look at a BRT map.
http://www.bmt-lines.com/moodybrtmap.JPG
David
Well, look at the older els they had as models for how to construct rapid transit lines. The Second and Third Avenue els in Manhattan. That stretch of Brooklyn is squeezed by Greenwood Cemetary and Sunset Park. It was proably thought, correctly, that further development would adhere to the Manhattan-like grid street pattern, and proceed southward. The stations would naturally be located at existing "main" streets where the 3rd and 5th Ave els had them.
Regarding the Fourth Avenue line, it's not a bad planning decision, I think. Conceivably, with a four track subway running underneath it, Fourth Avenue could host a much denser level of development than what's there now. So it's a planning decision that will still be effective decades from now.
And no engineers were harmed in the making of that tunnel, despite what some Tunnel Rats may say ;)
There is the portal that was built for the IRT to go down 4th Avenue. There is the lower level platforms at Nevins that probably would have gone acros the Manhattan Bridge. There is a ramp after Hoyt St that would have contunued along Fulton Street probably along Lafayette.
It may be that the planners intended to build the 4th Avenue subway to eventually accept the passenger traffic that would be left over once the 3rd and 5th Avenue els were gone. Additionally, the 4th Avenue line was intended to be used as a possible springboard to a Narrows tunnel to Staten Island, whereas the 3rd and 5th Avenue lines ended far north of the Narrows.
Good question, though.
There are images of the Brooklyn 3rd and 5th Avenue els on the Frank
Goldsmith pages of the Joe Korner (Joseph D. Korman web site).
Metro-North will hire you to work as an assistant conductor, but they will insist that your first born immediately be hired as a car cleaner. If just born, they have a two week grace period.
And of course there is room for advancement within the company. After 2 years, they actually give you a puncher to punch the tickets with. Word of advice: keep handy a REALLY sharp pencil.
First off, the MTA property and the commericial property are being designed by two different firms. This results in the strange circumstance that the entrance to the LIRR/NYCT complex at street level on Flatbush Ave will not match the rest of the building, not directly. It does appear that the two companies consulted well with each other, though.
The MTA contracts are being handled by di Domenico + Partners, LLP, who's work should be familiar to most New Yorkers. They also designed the new Stillwell Ave Terminal, as well as the 161st St/Yankee Stadium IND station. di Domenico + Partners has a page about their part of Atlantic Terminal here:
http://www.ddp-ny.com/architecture/atlantic.html
They have some nice images, but no way to view them large-scale, so I hope you don't mind squinting.
The commerical center itself is being handled by The Forrest City Ratner Companies, developers who have been very active in the area before. They don't give the name of the architects on their site, but they do have a lot of other information and images. FCRC is also responsible for Atlantic Center, Flatbush Center, "The Heights" in downtown Brooklyn, the Hilton in Times Square, and a number of other buildings. Their site has a wealth of information about the property, and is geared to prospective tennants:
http://www.fcrc.com/project_main1.asp?id=15&cc=1&rid=15
The tenant list is very interesting, indeed. There will be a 3-floor Target (one floor for stock) with 193,595 sq.ft. as well as a Red Lobster, Starbucks, McDonalds, Bath and Body Works, Daffy's, Chuck E Cheese's, and many other SuperMegaChains. (Chuck E Cheese in Brooklyn! Oy!) Their floor map shows there will be what looks like a mall-type promenade running through the center of the building.
FCRC's Photo Gallery has some very nice full-size renderings of the finished building. Perhaps most interesting is their sheet of demographics on the area. It seems that the average family income for the area 1 mile around Atlantic Terminal is over $153,000. I need to work where THEY'RE working.
It should be noted that the FCRC tenant list is only for the retail section of the building. The office tower on the East side of the property appears to be mostly taken by Bank of America, as is evidenced by Skyscraper.com's page on the site:
http://www.skyscrapers.com/re/en/wm/bu/159022/
The building's slated for an opening in the spring of 2004. 2004 is shaping up to be a big, big year!
I hope you all find this information as interesting as I did!
Yet the site in the adjacent building, built for Caldor and later occupied by Sterns, is still available.
Most likely that's because of the size of the site in the adjacent building. Given its past users, the site's probably too big for a specialty retailer, yet possibly too small for a mega-retailer such as Wal-Mart or Ikea. Department stores like Macy's or J.C. Penney might find the space the right size for their requirements, but most places like that aren't in an expansion mode.
Sigh. Boy, if there were ever a possible reason to put some freight service on the branch that could be one. If the store had a policy of accepting deliveries by train wherever possible, maybe something could be arranged. (Hey, imagine a railroad tunnel from New Jersey over to Atlantic Avenue!) But I suppose the Brooklyn-Jamaica stretch isn't conducive to freight anyway. Well. Such a store will just add lots of trucks to the neighborhood. Just what Flatbush Avenue and Atlantic Avenue need.
Sooner than you think
The most interesting proposal is also the most likely -- a new arena for the New Jersey, then to be once again on Long Island, nets. My guess is the discussions have been just an attempt to squeeze more subsidies out of New Jersey (turnabout is fair play I guess), but a major league team, in the borough with the highest percent of its population Black, for the sport most popular with Blacks, is an interesting idea. Much more in tune with the borough's current mix than bringing back the Dodgers.
It would have to be located over the train yard east of Flatbush and south of Atlantic, but I'm not sure that site is big enough. Other property would probably have to be comdemned by eminent domain. Add on traffic and parking NIMBYs (even though the site has great transit access to almost all of Long Island and Lower Manhattan) and the city's fiscal crisis, and you're talking serious pie in the sky.
Nice to think about, though. I don't do major league sports. But if an arena were right there, I'd be tempted to buy some season tickets with some friends and take the G over.
I thought the Nets are considering moving to a new arena in Newark.
The plan was a new arena in Newark for the Nets and the Devils, financed by the teams and the city. But because Newark is poor it won't work without financial guarantees from the state. Suburban areas oppose having the state subsidize a move from the suburbs to the city (they didn't seem to mind 50 years of the reverse), blocking the plan. Bergen County wants to keep sales tax revenues from the existing arena, and demands that the state make it up to them. Bear in mind that Bergen County is rich, and that the arena lost money, made up by the state and other aspects of the development since its inception.
In any event, the YankeeNets are frustrated and supposedly have opened up negotiations with Forest City over a new arena. Real, or a ploy to put pressure on NJ? More likely the latter, but an interesting idea nonetheless.
You mean the return of chuck e cheese. there was a chuck e cheese in the ceasars bay shopping center in bensonhurst in the 1980's. Went there many times as a child
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The Gold Line is still a nice piece of work.
One thing I am personally interested in is the use of four-quadrant gates at grade crossings on the system. Stuff like that ought to have been introduced at every blasted grade crossing across the USA IMHO. They’ve been using four-quadrant gates at crossings in Ireland and Britain for over a century—high time for the US to catch up not only on this LRT system in LA, but all over the place.
Pity that the US has to rely on getting LRVs from companies like Siemens, Kawasaki and Kinki-Sharyo, though…if St. Louis Car Company were building these LRVs, we would have solidly-built behemoths with good looks that would put the sterility of the German and Japanese manufacturers’s designs to utter shame and envy, I say…
Whereabouts exactly? I’ve only seen parts of the PJ branch, all of the Hempstead Branch, parts of the Ronkonkoma, Montauk (East and West Ends), Far Rockaway and Oyster Bay branches too, but no four-quadrant gates. Must have been a quite recent addition, or a rare one too; no such thing was ever commonplace on the LIRR to my memory.
And if people can still violate four-quadrant gates, then they must be smashing right through them…
"And if people can still violate four-quadrant gates, then they must be smashing right through them…"
No. If I recall correctly: The "anti-facing" gate (the one covering the side of the road which is opposite to you) is not full-length, to allow a car on the tracks as the gates come down to safely exit the crossing.
Naturally, violators learn to pick their way through the gaps...
The “anti-facing” gate (the one covering the side of the road which is opposite to you) is not full-length, to allow a car on the tracks as the gates come down to safely exit the crossing
Funny how this anticipated driver gaffe almost never happens in Ireland, Britain, or elsewhere. Their gates completely close off the tracks from the road. If I am not gravely mistaken, I believe that the “anti-facing” gate as described has some “give” that would permit the illegally trapped vehicle to push the gate out of the way with his/her vehicle while getting clear of the tracks. This ought to be done in the US instead of half-way (or three-quarter way as the case may be).
A design like that completely defeats the purpose of four quadrant gates, particularly if the gates are at the side of the road so the gap is near the center. With complete effective four quadrant gates, the closing is staggered so that the entrance gates close first, and what is being used in modern installations is sensors in the roadway at the crossing which prevent the exit gates from closing when they sense a vehicle within the gate area.
Tom
You mean St. Louis Crap Company? I'll take Siemens or Kinki Sharyo any day over St. Louis.
Budd, on the other hand...
They did the right thing insofar as PCCs. I would take it that they had a prejudiced bent there…
My Photos:
Sumeet's Photos:
DTrain22's Photos:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
YOU
Jimmy
Brah.
Too bad BRAH!
What day did you right the Rock Park Shuttle. My friend work the PM there one Friday. You can't miss him, his a 400++pound Chains Man. If you saw him you would know who I ment.
Robert
Robert
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/URsumeet/PDRM5673
IIRC that's the plaza just BEFORE you reach the Willy B
citybound... I think we were on the M at the time going
back towards Essex...
--Mark
The pictures are fantastic. roger is wondering if we could get a copy of all of the pictures on a cd or dvd in whatever the resolution they were originally taken?
Let me know, and thanks to those of you who emailed me to let me know they were up.
Hope everyone is doing really well.
Gena
And why is SubTalk so DEAD right now????
Good night.
:)
F me it's late... Speedreading kills.
The itinerary (thanks Mike) is not set in stone, so if you want to go on the trip and have some suggestions, please post them here. Already I want to see if we can work in one other trolley line. This should be really fun and exciting, with no dull moments.
Who's going so far:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Jersey Mike
Wdobner
Also keep your calendars open for a SubTalk Field Trip to Washington, D.C., which will take place on Monday, August 18, 2003. I will work on getting a formal write up for that soon.
They're not cheap, compared to 80 mph with NJT/SEPTA.
I thought the Jersey Arrows were allowed to do 90mph and the ALP-44's 100mph? In any event, that's just not fast enough. It's not every day that I get to ride the NEC and I want to have fun! I'm going to have my GPS with me to hopefully note and confirm that I am going 125mph (or very very very close to that). Last time I took Amtrak on the NEC, I could tell we were going fast, but it didn't seem THAT fast. On the way back I did the NJT/SEPTA schlep. At times NJT and SEPTA seemed like they might be moving at a decent clip, but do to the many station stops, it wouldn't last long at all.
What is it, a $30 savings for a 50 minute longer ride? (if you know offhand...)
I haven't had a chance to check my social calendar yet. I will if I can.
If you want to do 125, it's worth the extra money. On my only Metroliner ride (PHL to WAS) it felt like we weren't moving very fast, but then I saw that we were leaving the 75 mph I-95 traffic WAY behind. I later went up front and saw the speedometer: 109.
Cost: Maximum $36 R/T and it's about 2 hours each way.
That's how the Branford crew did it last year on their SEPTA excursion. I met them at the Croyden station on the R7 and got some photos while I waited for them.
Hmmmm...........
The Media line is extremely cool, I suggested it, I just think the final run into the Media, through the woods and all merits a look. If it's worked out right then you can catch the R3 back up to the city for the next leg.
We did that on the most recent SubTalk SEPTA excursion, except that we got off the R3 at the Sharon Hill trolley line and rode that back to 69th Street.
And a reminder to those taking amtrak in: you ticket stub is good for the ride from 30th street to market east on any of the regional trains.
Sean@temple
And a reminder to those taking amtrak in: you ticket stub is good for the ride from 30th street to market east on any of the regional trains.
Thanks, I did not know that.
True, but rarely are tickets EVER checked on the Center City stops so it is basically a free service. You only run into problems with trains that are terminating at Suburban or Market East.
Sean
Simon
Swindon UK
Chuck Greene
I printed out a copy of the SEPTa system map, and I also looked at the running times for a few of the lines. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that we should be able to squeeze a few more things into the day. Would this work?
Begin no later than 10am
MFL (all) 10-11:15am
Rt 101 11:15-12:25pm
Rt 102 12:40-1:05pm
MFL 1:12-1:28pm
Lunch near Market East 1:30-2:15pm
Rt 36 2:20-3:37pm
MFL 3:40-4:00pm
Rt 100 4:05-4:34pm
R6 4:46-5:14pm
North Philadelphia photo stop (rush hour!)
BSL 5:45-7:30pm
PATCO 7:30pm - ???
We can probably start earlier than 10am, and also spend more time at the terminals of transfer points if we want. Let me know how this looks.
I short changed Rt 102. So now I added 20 minutes on to all the times after that, but now they don't exactly match up to the schedules. Sorry.
Begin no later than 10am
MFL (all) 10-11:15am
Rt 101 11:15-12:25pm
Rt 102 12:40-1:25pm
MFL 1:32-1:48pm
Lunch near Market East 1:50-2:30pm
Rt 36 2:40-3:57pm
MFL 4:00-4:20pm
Rt 100 4:25-4:54pm
R6 5:00-5:34pm
North Philadelphia photo stop (rush hour!)
BSL 6:00-7:50pm
PATCO 7:50pm - ???
Are you accounting for ROUND TRIPS here? I don't think you could ride out to Media, back to Drexel Junction, out to Sharon Hill, and then back to 69th Street in 2 hours 10 minutes.
Besides, if there are people on the trip who haven't ever been out there, they are going to want to get pictures of the Media line street-running. So I'd allow at least one extra interval. Maybe also for the Sharon Hill street running portion just south of Clifton-Aldan.
MFL (all) 10-11:15am
Rt 101 11:15-12:25pm
Some of the connections are too tight. If you miss a train, or there is a delay, etc., etc. that would foul the whole schedule.
Lunch near Market East 1:30-2:15pm
What on earth are you planning on eating? I recall the 1 hour given on the MOD trip was just BARELY enough time to eat lunch (even though after everyone returned the train was not ready) so 45 minutes is a stretch.
R6 4:46-5:14pm
North Philadelphia photo stop (rush hour!)
BSL 5:45-7:30pm
Hmmm...I have mixed feelings about this part. I heard the R6 is to be avoided, but if it will put you in North Philadelphia station in rush hour...whoa, talk about a major photo op, and some big action...
However, what do you mean by "BSL"? Do you mean "Broad Street Line" or "Broad Street Local"? Because if the latter then some can ride the local while others can ride the express ahead and catch some photos. And are you going to do the Ridge Spur?
On another note, I would like to thank you and Jersey Mike for actually taking the time to even MAKE an itenerary and actually bothering to LOOK at the schedules. You just need to loosen it up a bit. The PATCO part seems to be the most flexible variable.
I'd like to hope so, but we have to park and maybe take a regional rail train in.
Some of the connections are too tight. If you miss a train, or there is a delay, etc., etc. that would foul the whole schedule.
Those aren't the actual arrival and departure times. In reality there is time for connections.
What on earth are you planning on eating? I recall the 1 hour given on the MOD trip was just BARELY enough time to eat lunch (even though after everyone returned the train was not ready) so 45 minutes is a stretch.
Greenberger and I already know where we're eating, at a kosher restaurant located right there. 45 mins to an hour is enough ideally. If the place is crowded we can adjust the time.
However, what do you mean by "BSL"? Do you mean "Broad Street Line"
Broad Street Line. Yes we are doing the spur.
What's a hashgacha and why is this joint's potentially shady?
I believe those are all out in the suburbs and would require a regional train and/or bus to get to. I don't want to take the time to do that. If worse comes to worse, I will buy a bag of chips and other assorted junk food and will be happy.
Chuck Greene
I think that if we try to squeeze all this in we don't have enough padding time and small delays could bump things off entirely.
BTW, it gets dark by 8:00 if you wanted to do PATCO.
Don't see your name here? Maybe you need glasses, or maybe you haven't told me you're coming yet. Whatever the case, decide now, make plans to get there on time, and be ready to have the most fun since the MOD trips!
Can't wait till Monday,
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
David J. Greenberger
Jersey Mike
Wdobner
DTrain22
Operational Engineer II
High St / Brooklyn Bridge
R30
Chris R27-R30
Sean@Temple
chuchubob
That's 11 people! We have room for hundreds more so don't be shy. Email me if you have any questions.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
David J. Greenberger
Jersey Mike
Wdobner
DTrain22
High St / Brooklyn Bridge
R30
chuchubob
Quote of the day: "What the F_CK are you doing in North Philadelphia!?!" -- SEPTA tower operator
Top Speeds of the day:
BSS = 64MPH
R6 = 60MPH
MFL = 5X MPH
Rt 100 = ~68MPH
Interesting factoid: we were on two different trains that backed up after overshooting stations, and one train that opened its doors before we came to a complete stop (and it wasn't the R6)
All in all a great day. Can't wait to do it again. Photos will ne posted during thr week. Please join me for the Washington DC trip next Monday.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Every cab has a speedometer. Go to the rear cab and the operator won't be in the way.
R6 60 mph? I thought that was the slow line!
Maybe in the past, but the track was in good shape, there were straight-aways, there was a good amount of distance between some stations, and the engineer was no sissy.
BSS 68 mph?
No, 64MPH. You misread it.
Funny thing... thats what i said when i first looked at the ittenerary. North Philadelphia probobly hasn't seen that many white guys at one time since they closed connie mack stadium. I have a special place in my heart for north philly being that i go to school there (go owls) but it needs a lot of work.
Wish i could have been there.
Sean@Temple
You should've told the SEPTA TW/O that you were all going to shop at Pathmark, in front of the station.
Oops, I forgot PATCO...
PATCO = ~67MPH
The Route 100 and PATCO speeds all involved the speedo needle being very close to 70 at some point or at many points during the ride :)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Thanks. Yeah, the secret behind the close-up Almond Joy photos is that we received an unscheduled tour of the MFL 69 St Shops. I'll discuss that more in the trip report, but it was awesome!
Heh heh, thanks. I didn't want to cut you out of the photo, it shows you taking one of your famous photos.
By the way, while on the subject of Norristown, and 69th St, do you have any "after shots" to go with these "before" ones? I could be looking right at them in your photos, but I haven't a clue what it looks like now. I'd love to see what it looks like there now. I was there when I was a kid (the photos are even older than that - before I was born), but have never been back.
Clockwise from upper left:
DTrain22, R30, chuchubob, High St / Brooklyn Bridge, me, wdobner, Jersey Mike, Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Here's how:
1. save the photo to your computer
2. download Irfanview
3. I made Irfanview my default image reader, you can do whatever you want
4. open the photo in Irfanview
5. do file->print
6. after hitting print or ok in the dialog box thta pops up, it gives you a screen where you choose "best fit." That should put the photo all on one page.
Yaaayyy Irfanview! What an excellent program. Why, it's so good I actually sent some money to Irfan Skiljan! I doubt there's any apps out there that have the speed and utility of Irfanview in the area of graphic file manipulation. It is like the smarter older sister of GWS, which I used when I had a dos box.
Simon
Swindon UK
Chuck Greene
Mark
Glad you enjoyed it!
Mark
I was looking forward to seeing your photos, since you, Brian and I all shot from different perspectives.
One R10 has been preserved - OK so 1575 is an R7A which was rebuilt to serve as the prototype for the R10s. It is part of the Museum fleet.
The big problem with preserving a full trainset is that there is not that much room in the system to properly store them. One car from each type should be sufficient in many cases (the LoVs, Standards and D types excepted). Many of similar types can be connected together to make a consist (such as the recent SMEE trip).
What's 3189, chopped liver? :)
You mean like the R-11's?(/R-34's)
That photo could not have been taken in 77. 8013 was put in the museum in 1976.
As we all know, Artens were A trains and CC trains were ALWAYS Arnines. D trains could be either 32's or Arnines with an occasional 42 or 44 thrown in just to keep the geese from whining. Heh.
Once in a while after 1977, the R-10s found themselves back where they belonged.
Yes, the R-10's will still be talked about and live in our memory banks and in our own photographic/video collections, as well as on this web page. I can say that I was very fortunate to be as one of the 250 riders on the ultimate last run of them during the final farewell E.R.A. fantrip of Sunday, October 29, 1989, and the R-10's were given on that date a very memorable and glorious sendoff that the fleet deserved and earned after 40 years of service. As a fact to consider though...the R-10's remarkably outlived and outlasted, in terms of years of revenue service, the R-11's through R-22's.
-William A. Padron
[Yes, I Love The R-10's...So There!]
-William A. Padron
[the R-10 maven of "Subtalk"]
1. The only active portion where IND "A" trains were stored outdoors in the middle on the elevated structure's center track is between that station and about east of 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue.
2. The eastern end of that station does indeed curve a bit here in a northerly fashion, where as 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue is in a simply straight manner.
Besides, the IND "A" line is my favorite route, so I know this line's particular section very well after so many trips to/from Lefferts Boulevard. There are a few more R-10 images I will be identifying in the near future, such as img_2443.jpg, which is R-10 #3103 at 125th Street-Saint Nicholas Avenue on the uptown (northbound) track on the "A" line.
-William A. Padron
[known to "Subtalk" and the railfan community as "Mr. R-10"]
Needless to say, I'd bribe the conductor to let me assume the position for one stop.:)
Just another apparent case of abuse by a MTA employee that ruins things for the rest of us.
On behalf of my fellow inmates - I mean SubTalkers - I just want to say welcome to the board.
The newbies will catch on soon enough to the sidewalk act here. Heh.
"Hah, maybe there should be a test before you get your Subtalk posting privileges."
(I took the "privilege" of correcting a spelling error)
David... It will probably pain you no end to see that I have dug out an old post of mine with a plan for training new Subtalk posters.
SubTalk Posters Training on Simulator
I take back what I said.
Mark
After years of struggle I am finally living in a city--might I say a real city--where I can commute to work daily on a train. I feel honored.
D
--Mark
:0)
Welcome to my killfile, retard.
His "get my violin" comment was very offensive. He displayed nothing but scorn for this poor woman, no attempt at all to understand her ordeal. That's condescening in the extreme.
That remark was also an example of name calling.
You are entitled to your opinion of Sarge's words, but I think it was very disrespectful to call him or anyone that here. I'm no saint and have some negative opinions about people here. I've discussed them with people like Doug on the phone and I've used words a lot worse than the one you did. But to express myself like that on the board here, in my opinion, just isn't right.
As I initially said, I hope that there is another side to this story. If the story is true, then the police involved are in some serious trouble.
I'd say it's almost certain that the cops will avoid any punishment whatsoever even if the woman's version is 100% true. Police "discipline" is a sham; cops can get out of just about anything not involving serious injury or death.
I hope the Daily News should be held responsibile if this story doesn't hold true, as they would be contributing to a dangerous lack of respect for the Mayor and the Police.
Don't get me wrong. I have enormous respect for Hizzoner as an innovator and businessman; and I never have regretted the 10 years I spent working for him. But as a politician and mayor I doubt very highly he has what it takes to be re-elected for a second term. He's no Rudy Giuliani or Ed Koch.
In so far as a lack of respect for the police is concerned, I agree. I know that I would not want their job. But I think it has to be admitted that whenever respect for the NYPD has taken a nose dive, it's usually been at their own hand. Then again, these guys (and women) are only human and are subject to the same stupidity that we all engage in from time to time. Perhaps if they were to show more respect for those they are charged to "protect and serve" (including six-month's pregnant women) that respect would be more readily returned.
Cops have a difficult job and it seems that they often get unreasonable pressure from higher ups. And when people feel they are in danger, they are the first to look for a cop.
One must understand there is a difference between those who make unjust laws and those who have to enforce them.
I agree that on the face of what I read, the officers acted with poor judgement, but that doesn't cast dispersion to the 30,000+ in the NYPD
I think cops in general try to use discretion, but if the supervisors are on them to issue x summons per tour or month or whatever; they are going to do what they have to do. They are working people just like most of us. And with a more dangerous job to boot
It is hard to see how anyone carrying a valid weekly unlimited ride MetroCard could possibly be considered a farebeater.
Tom
A weekly MetroCard looks the same as a pay-per-ride MetroCard. Entering through a gate also defeats the 18-minute lockout, leaving her free to pass the card back to someone on the other side of the fare array.
Passing a card to someone else or selling swipes would be fare beating whether or not she waited 18 minutes, just entering the system (with a valid unlimited card) is not since the MTA receives no more money and loses no money whether she swipes or not.
Tom
Please see my earlier post on this subject, I also found his name calling out of line. I also find you a great asset to this board.
Yet I have a question to you as a former patrol officer. In such a case, if the person did indeed have a valid unlimited Metrocard (and it wasn't "JUST USED", indicating they let someone else though with it moments ago), wouldn't you feel that indicated the person did indeed make an honest error? Let me limit that to the case of the lady in the article, if they jump the turnstile, no problem with the summons. But if they walked through a gate and did have a valid, unused within the last 18 minutes Metrocard, would you consider cutting them some slack? I realize how the person acted to you would have a lot to do with it, if they were idiots, they don't deserve slack.
Also, what is the determining factor as to weather you arrest such a farebeater or give a summons? I know if they have no id they usually go through the system. But I've heard of people with ID getting arrested also. It makes a big difference for a summons is like a parking ticket (or maybe a speeding ticket) but if you get arrested you wind up with a crimial record. I believe that is accurate.
I would very much be interest in hearing the police officers side of things.
Bill/Piggo
What is your feeling about the presence of a valid (not JUST USED) Metrocard as to backing up a person's claim they had made an honest mistake.
And also I guess I didn't express my question well. When one gets charged for farebeating, does the officer have more than one charge he can make? I know that theft of service is charged often along with tresspassing when a farebeater is arrested. Now if a summons is issued (returnable to the Transit Adjudicatoin buearu), is the charge also Theft of Service (A Misdemonor) and Trespassing (B misdomenor)? And is farebeating in general a misdormenor?
Thanks again.
As far as the metrocard is concerned I assume the cop can check it out and it can be some evidence in court but I don't see how it could prove either way her intent in crossing through the gate. But he is not obligated. And if she is acting disorderly the first obligation would be to restrain her and if they went to the token booth to verify it she could get away. The police are under no obligation to verify it anyway.
Bacially you bring out the the point that if an idividual acts with courtsey and respect the cop is more likely to be more lienient; if they act like an idiot, they will be treated in kind.
Well, in retrospect, my "retard" comment was too harsh. I thought your "violins" comment was condescending toward the woman in question, but it did not warrant what I said.
Amen. I stopped reading the posters' posts a while ago. So I haven't read what made you say that. All I can say is, some guys are just plain pompous. There's no other way to describe `em. Windbags might work too. They squat about the territories like toadstools, emitting noxiousness at whim.
This from Mr. Sensitivity himself! :-)
Tom
I just realized that this is a Daily News article, who has been on the ticket case. Would they dare print a story like this if they thought the women was distorting the situation? Am I being naive?
Why bore people with facts when you can incite them with emotion?
My attempt to HTML this failed as I wrote this link, so I gave up...sorry
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07222003/postopinion/opedcolumnists/1173.htm
I find it hard to imagine what could have been similar circumstances in the present case. The woman in question was on her way to work, not part of a group, and violating any other regulations other than the (possible) entry through an open gate.
Sensationalism has won out over facts.
thanks to Chap 11 choo-choo for the hyperlink....much obliged
The woman plainly admits she "begged passersby" for help. Since the News is only sharing her side of the story (filtered through an attorney, no doubt, since this report comes three weeks after the event), we don't know at what volume she was begging, or if she was trying to physically defend herself from the officers. The police may have had to treat her as an EDP based on her reaction to being summoned.
Now, Paul, back to the important stuff, when are you coming up to Branford?
Excellent point. Law does not exempt the pregnant.
How often are you up there?
As far as operating 1689 or riding in it, I was up there once when it was out, but it didn't do it for me... The sounds I love came from having a string of 10 of them operating in regular service... Even a fan trip of 3 or 4 doesn't compare with the memories of the free ranging 9's... A sign of old age perhaps...
And as to our local hat company, yes ... they ARE hiring. Seems every time they hire someone to do the hat deliveries, they end up face down in an alley somewhere. They're still trying to figure out WHY. =)
Or a loss of sanity*.....
*TrainDude twisted my arm to post that.
While I had my railfanning bout last Sunday, I was rushing down a stairway to the 6th Avenue platform for the L. Unfortunately, some woman was sitting down on the last step on the stairway. Where's the police when you need them this time? :-/ She certainly wasn't pregnant or in any pain. Good place to sit, huh?
Should it turn out that the woman's version of events was correct, the city should not have to pay, as that would just be an additional burden on taxpayers. The cops, personally, should be required to pay.
That should be the case for any misdemeanor charge.
That's a pretty dumb idea once you give it any thought at all. If an officer may incur personal liability with every ticket he writes, there will be very few tickets written. As a matter of fact, there will be virtually no preventive police work done which might lead to a situation where an officer might have to make an arrest or write a summons. Not only will all the police be hidden deep in the back of the doughnut shops, they will have their radios turned off.
We in Los Angeles got a view that after the Simi Valley trial of the officers involved with the Rodney King arrest, when most LAPD officers (following orders) stayed in their station houses rather than taking aggressive action against demonstrators in the streets.
Tom
That's a pretty dumb idea once you give it any thought at all. If an officer may incur personal liability with every ticket he writes, there will be very few tickets written. As a matter of fact, there will be virtually no preventive police work done which might lead to a situation where an officer might have to make an arrest or write a summons. Not only will all the police be hidden deep in the back of the doughnut shops, they will have their radios turned off.
We in Los Angeles got a view that after the Simi Valley trial of the officers involved with the Rodney King arrest, when most LAPD officers (following orders) stayed in their station houses rather than taking aggressive action against demonstrators in the streets.
Personal liability wouldn't exist in every case in which a ticket is dismissed, only in the more extreme cases like the one now under discussion. Yes, it would require cops to exercise a bit more discretion and be a bit more careful about following the rules - which is not a bad thing at all. It's sort of like driving. If you're negligent, you might be held liable for injuries and property damage. Yet that doesn't stop people from driving. If a cop is so worried about possible liability that he won't do his job at all, then maybe he's in the wrong line of work. There'll be plenty of equally qualified candidates eager to take his place.
As far as the Rodney King riots were concerned, it's possible that a massive police intervention would have made an already bad situation even worse.
I don't think anyone would argue that NYPD is underpaid, I believe top pay for a PO is about 45k. Port Authority cops max at over 70k, not bad for working in a bus station.
PA officers don't just work in the country's largest bus terminal, they may be assigned to any of the following:
-PATH
-All 3 major airports (JFK, LGA, and EWR)
-Any toll bridge between NYC and NJ (GW Bridge, Holland and Lincoln tunnels, etc.)
-The marine/truck container terminals such as Red Hook in Brooklyn, Howland Hook in Staten Island and Port of Elizabeth in NJ
-The Teleport off South Ave in Staten Island
-The WTC area (Ground Zero)
That is why their pay scale is higher than an average NYPD officer.
Which of those assignments are more difficult than NYPD assignments, and thus deserve higher pay?
Tom
But the shear number of NYOD officers makes it prohibitly expensive to overpay thier officers as the PANY.
My buddy was a former NYPD at the tranit division. He was bored stiff because his official assignment was to stand around in a station most of the day. ride the train occasionally between stops etc.
Not a very effective use of the manpower. He was blind to anything that was happening except directly in front of him. His radio did not even work in many parts of the system. The nypd and MTA need to go high tech to provide police officers with information they need to better safeguard riders. they need wireless pda that send them both video from cctv cams, better descriptions of people committing crimes, ability to scan drivers licences and write tickets via fingerprint id etc.
This is not so far fetched. Stevens tech over in hoboken is working with the federal govenment deploying and testing such systems on thier campus. Campus police officers can view cctv cams and all the above
Not a very effective use of the manpower. "
That depends. The appearance of a uniformed officer often prevents crime near his/her location. In addition, that officer can help encourage would be criminals to do their thing away from where they see the uniform - but then run right into the plainclothes cop they didn't see.
At busy stations, the presence of an officer can bring help to an injured person quickly.
I was involved in assisting a woman who was struck by falling ice (from the building overhang) on a cold winter day in Philad. and bleeding from the face and head, just outside Market East Station. I got her to sit down, then helped a cop who was nearby to get her into his partner's patrol car. She was at Hahnemann's emergency room barely two minutes after it happened.
The PA cops who patrol PATH have a pretty challenging job to do. Lest we forget a PA cop was killed on duty some years back trying to stop a robbery on a PATH train. I don't know how it all ended (if they caught the suspect etc.)
To me, that surely is a waste of taxpayer's money.
Koi
Yeah, but they probably have to patrol the PABT restrooms from time to time. Blecch!
Please tell me where I can mail you $10 to help pay for your ticket out of the country.
While I feel for the pregnant woman for the arrest, there is no excuse for her going through the open exit gate in the first place. I don't buy that, you have an Unlimited or Pay-per-Ride Metrocard and you can't tell the difference between an exit gate (a no-no) and a turnstile or egg slicer (HEET's)? And I never heard cops REFUSING to see identification. The officer was correct in issuing the ticket in the first place but might went overboard in the the arrest, but she was lying again (6 months pregnant and she has CONTRACTIONS ALREADY?).
Sorry, I side with Sgt. Rosen on the issue, but I will stand firmly that the arrest was extreme, unless she has an outstanding warrant.
The woman should've kept her mouth quiet, took the ticket and try her best to dismiss it at TAB.
subfan
The stress of receiving the summons could certainly cause contractions. Some women are asked to be on complete bedrest for the third trimester of a pregnancy when early contractions occur, to minimize any type of stress to the body, however small.
Hopefully, the truth of this story will come out in due course.
--Mark
I guess it depends on how well (or rather how not so well) people handle stress... I know someone who got chest pains and palpitations when she got a traffic ticket - she ended up in an ER... She was stressed out because she was afraid to tell her husband about the ticket and she didn't have the money to pay for it.
I don't know exactly what gate this was, but yes - it can certainly happen, especially if you're not aware of your surroundings.
--Mark
As to the cops mocking her, he don't know one way or the other until evidence comes out in court. Sometimes people say things to make things the situation look better for themselves and worse for others.
It sounds as if she walked through an open exit gate into the fare-paid area. Technically that's farebeating, of course, although police should show some discretion. It also sounds from the Daily News story that the way in which she was treated went totally beyond the limits of what's acceptable.
If she were entering its a completely different story.
It's got to be a mistake in the story. No one would ever be ticketed for exiting through the gate.
Assuming that the woman entered through a open gate, the fact that the cops ticketed her is unfortunate but not an end-of-the-world sort of matter. They probably should have exercised some discretion - and probably would have, before the recent ticket-blitz policy - but were within their rights to issue a ticket. It's their cruel behavoir as outlined in the story that's the real outrage ... that, and the fact that they'll never be disciplined.
But we need something other than her word. If she really appealed to people to call a uniformed cop, she should appeal for someone to come forward and testify to it.
I'm not accusing this lady of anything at all, but be aware that everyone seems to accept that cops lie, but so do people who are apprehended. If you're thinking lawsuit, or even dismissal of a charge, "I shouldn't have gotten a ticket" doesn't hold a lot of weight, "the cops humiliated me" does.
That's probably not going to happen, as it's already been almost three weeks. If there ever is a hearing on her complain against the cops, it'll most likely end up as a he-said, she-said sort of thing. The only real hope is that someone who witnessed the incident will read the article and decide to come forward.
The key words are "as outlined in the story". The story smells to high heaven. There are three facts that stand out. She was stopped by plain clothes cops who saw her go through an open gate. At one point she was handcuffed. She was allowed to leave with a summons.
My speculation is the problems escalated from the time the two officers confronted the woman and asked to see some ID, so they could give her a summons. She refused to show any ID, said she did nothing wrong and was not going take any summons. She then may have escalated the confrontation by yelling to passers by that she was being mugged and trying to pull away from the officers. At some point, because of her behavior, the officers cuffed her and told her she had a choice of showing ID and accepting a summons which was not an admission of guilt, or being taken to a police station to be booked. That choice calmed her down, the cuffs were removed, she did show the officers ID, and was given a summons and allowed to go on her way.
It is the slant of the story that makes the officers' conduct seem outrageous, not necessarily the facts.
Tom
Yes, that's possible, but from what I can gather from the article the woman sounds like a respectable person who wouldn't do anything of the sort. She's 38 years old, hardly a teenager, and has what sounds like a decent job in the theater industry - yeah, I know, her age and job does not necessarily mean that she wouldn't have resisted the cops, but it makes that sort of action less likely. Moreover, the article also notes that the cops appeared to be making fun of her, with some reference to putting a hat on the ground so she could get donations. That's unacceptable no matter what. Finally, as usual, the NYPD is not helping its image by refusing to give its side of the story.
I agree with your comments as stated. However, you are giving good reasons why you feel the woman would not act out. But you must also consider that police in a confrontation are very aware of proper procedure, and the kind of ridicule they are accused of is a little hard for me to accept at face value. These are the kinds of things that can lead to bad situations for themselves and the department--not the sort of thing they are inclined to do for a little amusement.
Finally, as usual, the NYPD is not helping its image by refusing to give its side of the story.
Police departments for very good reason do not give their side of the story to the press, because these matters may involve litigation, and because any statement made to an often hostile press and public is likely to escalate the matter, rather than calm it.
One thing that comes to mind is that the woman begged and pleaded with the cops not to issue a summons, and they decided to make a bit of satire about the "begging" part. I don't know, this is just an idea, but something must have happened. It's just too unlikely that the woman would out-and-out lie to the Daily News.
Whether they did so or not is unclear. The woman obviously claims they did not.
A possible comment after she had been such a drama queen telling passers by that she was being mugged and someone should call a police officer.
If you ever watch "Cops" you might notice some of the ridiculous struggles that some women put up when they are told they are being arrested. Rarely do male subjects squirm and fight with three or four policemen around them, but women will, even though it is obviously futile. A similar reaction to an unwarranted summons is also possible. In a situation where a man would accept the summons and say I will see you in court, a woman may insist that no summons should be issued, and she will not sign one. If that happens, you seem to be advocating that the police should just let the person go without a summons. It cannot work that way.
Tom
I wouldn't generalize from what you see on a show like "Cops." It may well be that the producers are more likely to select clips of women resisting arrest because in a way they're more interesting, being out of character for women with their (supposedly) less-violent nature. Sort of a man-bites-dog situation.
You would be amazed what some people will do in ordinary interactions with police.
The exact same thing could be said about that story in the News. It is not objective reporting of what was seen by unbiased witnesses.
I used the "Cops" example as something you could relate to. I have seen the phenomenon of women fighting inevitable arrest or summonses that men accept stoically first hand also.
Tom
Back in the day when parking tickets were $10 - I used to accept them with a smile - heck if the meter maid was cute the smile was even bigger - I even got one to meet me for dinner later ;-)
Part of the problem today is that fines have gotten to be so large - and most people barely live paycheck to paycheck that they go nuts when getting a ticket they know they can't afford.
Parking and farebeat tickets are all avoidable, you know.
They're not exactly comparable. For one thing, parking fines are now huge, and they can be levied simply because you misestimated the time you could get back to your car. So you are being fined for being a few minutes late, hardly a criminal act.
OTOH, there is no comparable excuse for farebeating. You can always pay the fare, and once you're on the system, you can't be charged for not getting off fast enough.
The fines are high because otherwise more people would take the risk of parking illegally.
Already, many people apparently choose to take the risk rather than search a bit longer for a legal space or put an extra quarter in the meter.
Personally, I'd prefer to see parking meters eliminated. All parking would be paid via E-ZPass. Some areas would have time limits, and anyone exceeding those limits would be automatically fined (less than the current tickets, since there'd be no chance of not being fined, as there is now, so people wouldn't be inclined to take risks). Other areas wouldn't have time limits, but E-ZPass payment would continue. No parking on public property would be free anywhere in the city, although it would still be very inexpensive in some parts.
And no doubt some people choose to take their chances with a parking ticket rather than pay to park in a garage.
The fines are high to raise revenue period. - any other reasons are lies the politicians disseminate to patronize the public.
Already, many people apparently choose to take the risk rather than search a bit longer for a legal space or put an extra quarter in the meter.
It may be true in some cases but most times people underestimate the passage of time or get tied up at work and can't take their break in time to beat the meter. I can honestly say I have not received a parking ticket in FOUR YEARS now - how did I accomplish that - simply by doing most of my shopping online or only in stores with parking lots. And then only in stores that let you take the shopping cart to the car... I don't have the patience to look for a spot - I don't want to risk a ticket - and I won't use public transit to go shopping because when I go shopping - I SHOP!!! There simply isn't any way I'm going to carry my purchases home on public transit. On the plus side I don't get tickets but all the local stores have lost my business.
Curious. Why not? In the case of shopping where your purchases can fit in a shopping bag or two. What's so hard about that? Are you worried someone's gonna snatch your bags? I've bought many things and taken them on subways, buses, and commuter trains. I once bought a HP Deskjet 500 from an Egghead store on Wall Street and took it home to Bensonhurst on the N train. Nothing to it. It wasn't even wrapped, it was a little after the rush hour.
Then again, we don't buy much.
Currently, if I have to buy something that is big, say from the shopping mall closest to where I live (which is about 5 to 6 miles away), but not too big that one person can't handle it by him/herself, or have several bags from a shopping trip at the mall, I use a bus to get it home. I've done this when I bought a printer, scanner, and a computer monitor, and when I've had 3 or 4 medium to large bags with me.
Koi
So you think it's okay to park at hydrants, in bus stops, etc.? Most parking regulations make sense, but they have to be enforced or nobody will pay any attention. A slap on the wrist won't cut it -- even today's fines are low enough that many are willing to take the risk.
Besides, why is it so terrible to raise revenue for the city? The city needs revenue, does it not? If it doesn't raise revenue from inconsiderate boobs who aren't willing to play by the rules, then it has to raise revenue by increasing taxes, or it has to reduce expenses by cutting services. While there's much room for disagreement over which services are worthwhile and which can afford to be cut, there's little disagreement that the city has to provide some services and that it has to pay for those services somehow.
It may be true in some cases but most times people underestimate the passage of time or get tied up at work and can't take their break in time to beat the meter.
Tied up at work? Most meters in the city allow parking for only an hour or two -- feeding the meter beyond that period is illegal. The point of meters is to make parking available to short-term parkers. That can't happen if all the metered spaces are illegally occupied by meter feeders.
I can honestly say I have not received a parking ticket in FOUR YEARS now - how did I accomplish that - simply by doing most of my shopping online or only in stores with parking lots. And then only in stores that let you take the shopping cart to the car... I don't have the patience to look for a spot - I don't want to risk a ticket - and I won't use public transit to go shopping because when I go shopping - I SHOP!!! There simply isn't any way I'm going to carry my purchases home on public transit. On the plus side I don't get tickets but all the local stores have lost my business.
I'm glad you've found a way to avoid parking tickets. (Most New Yorkers have a different way to avoid parking tickets. Keep reading.) I'm sure that the many NYC stores without parking lots realize that they lose business from many potential shoppers who go elsewhere. They also realize that they have enough walk-in traffic to make a profit, although they might not make a profit if they had parking lots -- land is expensive in this city, and parking lots gobble up lots of it. After all, most NYC households don't have cars.
(That's how most New Yorkers manage to avoid parking tickets, BTW.)
It's often been said that small business owners are the worst meter feeders, parking outside their stores and running out to the meters every hour.
Lock 'em up!!
Why don't they use transit? I'm not talking about the sort of businesses that require a lot of travel during the day, but stores, delis and the like.
Maybe they don't live in places where it's convenient to take transit at the hours when they have to open their businesses. If you've ever worked an odd shift (I have, a lot) and been dependent on transit, you know how absolutely screwed you can be by it. As just one of a number of personal examples, when I worked in LIC on a 5 to 1 shift and lived in Sheepshead Bay, it typically took me 1:20 to get home at night, taking the F and D trains, for a journey of what, 15 miles tops? I used to make it by car in a half-hour, and that on mostly local streets.
Also, many small businessmen bring cash in in the morning and take it home at night. You want them to carry the days receipts on the subway at a late hour?
The City treats its cash cows like hamburger helper.
Excellent analogy!
If the business wants to ensure the availability of parking for its employees, it can obtain space for a parking lot or make arrangements with a nearby garage.
Says who? First, parking during business hours does not constitute "long-term storage." Second, where do you think the taxes come from to maintain those streets and parking spaces? And public services? And Welfare? And City Hospitals? And transit subsidies?
There was plenty of parking in the South Bronx 25 years ago. All you wanted.
Then when businesses want to leave the city for more welcoming jurisdictions, they're called ungrateful b@st@rds.
I'll bet they also complain that there isn't enough parking in the area for their customers.
Not saying that its ok - I was thinking more in terms of expired meters which can happen to anyone who forgets or doesnt realize time has passed - just saying that those fines are exorbitant. Are you so perfect that you never missed an appointment even by one minute?
Besides, why is it so terrible to raise revenue for the city? The city needs revenue, does it not?
Then tell it like it is - the city politicians should just come out and state that the real purpose behind the myriad of confusing and incomprehensible parking regulations are for revenue raising purposes instead of LYING to us about the reasons behind the high fines.
Tied up at work? Most meters in the city allow parking for only an hour or two -- feeding the meter beyond that period is illegal.
I used to work for a Queens hospital - the nurses would park at the meters and then rush out on their break to feed them or move their cars. If they got tied up then they would give the ticket to a union delegate who in turn made the hospital administration pay it. Bottom line - there was a nursing shortage at the time and admin did anything their union wanted!! And it wasn't just for meters - Since the hospital did not provide parking - you should have seen the exodus of employees at 10:45am to rush to move their cars on alternate side days...
As for those who are curious as to why I don't take my shopping home on the bus - well last Sunday I went to Home Depot, Costco and the Supermarket in that order - bags filled the trunk, back seat, rear floor, and front passenger seat and floor. Try taking that on the bus. That's what I mean by shopping!!
Isn't the fine for meter overtime lower than most other parking fines? I think they're in the $30-40 range. You call that exorbitant? Any lower and they're no disincentive at all to most car-owning New Yorkers.
The purpose of a meter is to limit the time a vehicle can be legally parked in a space. Exceeding that limit is inconsiderate to anyone else who might want to park there. Once the meter has expired, the meter maid has no idea whether it expired two minutes ago or two hours ago.
Of course mistakes happen. One would hope that a motorist who parks at a meter is aware of the possibility that he'll be delayed and is prepared to assume the risk of receiving a ticket should that occur. If he can't accept that possibility, he shouldn't park at a meter. Fortunately, this city has an excellent public transit system, so parking at a meter is rarely the only option.
Then tell it like it is - the city politicians should just come out and state that the real purpose behind the myriad of confusing and incomprehensible parking regulations are for revenue raising purposes instead of LYING to us about the reasons behind the high fines.
What confusing and incomprehensible parking regulations? I've been to a city that color-codes its curbs, and if you happen not to know the colors, you have no way of knowing where parking is legal. I've been to a city that doesn't sign its alternate side regulations except at the city line, and only enforces them in a few neighborhoods, even though they apply citywide. I've been to a city that requires permits to park on certain streets at certain times of day, but none of the relevant information is actually posted anywhere.
Here, everything's on a sign. Sometimes there are lots of signs, and it can take a few minutes to figure them out, but there are always signs, except for the obvious violations, like hydrants, crosswalks, and driveways. Oh, there's one unposted violation that isn't obvious: 15 feet from a hydrant is a somewhat arbitrary distance. But it's very easy to avoid all parking tickets in NYC: (1) obey the signs; (2) don't do something obviously illegal; (3) don't park within 15 feet of a hydrant. How much easier can it get?
Again, parking regulations, by and large, make sense. (If anything, there aren't enough of them.) They discourage the hoarding of parking where short-term parking is in demand; they allow buses access to bus stops and fire trucks access to hydrants; they permit the streets to be swept. But they can't do any of that if they're not enforced. And if the mode of enforcement happens to raise revenue for the city, what's wrong with that? The city has to raise that revenue somehow. Do you have a better suggestion?
I used to work for a Queens hospital - the nurses would park at the meters and then rush out on their break to feed them or move their cars. If they got tied up then they would give the ticket to a union delegate who in turn made the hospital administration pay it. Bottom line - there was a nursing shortage at the time and admin did anything their union wanted!! And it wasn't just for meters - Since the hospital did not provide parking - you should have seen the exodus of employees at 10:45am to rush to move their cars on alternate side days...
I'm well aware that many people do feed the meter. It's illegal. It's inconsiderate. It's stupid. It's risky. They deserve whatever tickets they get.
A single parking space can be occupied by a single vehicle for the entire day, or it can accomodate dozens of short trips. Many people have reason to take short trips to hospitals. If the nurses tie up the meters all day, they're cutting into their own business.
As for those who are curious as to why I don't take my shopping home on the bus - well last Sunday I went to Home Depot, Costco and the Supermarket in that order - bags filled the trunk, back seat, rear floor, and front passenger seat and floor. Try taking that on the bus. That's what I mean by shopping!!
Obviously, anyone without a car has different shopping habits. Your shopping habits aren't the only ones that work, you know -- most New Yorkers don't have cars, and they seem to get by just fine. At least they have the option, unlike pretty much anywhere else in the U.S.
Only $30-$40, gee! What a bargain. That's half the cost of an unlimited monthly MetroCard. And of course it isn't exorbitant, because motorists are fair game for anything, and they're all rich.
Anyway, the accurate fine for an expired meter (violation code 34) is $55 in Manhattan, south of 96th, $25 elsewhere.
The fines should be deterrents. They are. What's the problem if they also raise money for the city, money which would otherwise need to be obtained from some other source? There's nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone.
What alternative deterrent would you suggest in the place of fines?
You appear to disagree. I find your position puzzling. Would you care to elaborate?
I'm arguing that their issue is revenue. You are putting a high value of deterrence. That's fine, but is it what the City wants?
Economics 101 (maybe 001) talks about tariffs. You have revenue tariffs, which are set high enough to maximize revenue without killing trade. Then you have punitive tariffs, which are set so high as to kill foreign trade in a particular commodity, usually for protectionist purposes.
I'm arguing that, from the City's point of view, parking fines (and much else) are revenue tariffs. The last thing they want to do is have a City of goody-two-shoes who do everything right, and keep their money in their pockets.
There is no one, singular motive.
Apparently only one motive is of concern to you. Fine. So why do you care that parking fines also satisfy somebody else's motive? As long as they satisfy your motive, why aren't you satisfied?
How about all the cars in a Queens neighborhood that were ticketed for failing to park with their front wheels turned away from the curb - apparently there is an obscure law dating back to the days before automatic transmissions that require it. And I can't blame the recent ticket blitz for that one - it happened under a previous mayor's watch. So I'm not just referring to the regs that are clearly posted (even there I have had to read some of the signs twice because they conflict or are confusing in some locations) - Did you ever actually read ALL the parking regs? - you need to be a lawyer to understand them all...
BTW - IIRC Vallone's office got the then PVB to dismiss all the "front wheel" tickets. Still the car owners did not need the aggravation of getting the tickets in the first place.
A typical sidewalk flag is 5' square; three of them between you and the hydrant, and you're OK.
My wife didnt have a clue about that one and she got a ticket. We sent a picture of the sign that indicated it was ok to park there and the fine was reduced to $10 by the judge who indicated in his response that "respondent was obviously unaware of the rules".
Sure, there are obscure parking laws, but they're almost never enforced. I'll take that any day over color-coded curbs. The only commonly enforced parking regulation that isn't obvious and isn't explicitly spelled out on signs is the 15-foot rule.
Yes, motherhood and apple pie and all that...who could argue
in _favor_ of parking at hydrants, double-parking, bus stops,
crosswalks, etc?
But a big chunk of the parking tickets handed out in NYC are
either petty BS or just plain incorrect. The "adjudication"
system is rigged to make it as inconvenient as possible to
contest a ticket, guilty or not. A tremendous money-maker
is alternate side of the street parking. What a total scam!
More than half the time the sweepers don't even make the
rounds during the designated period. What's more, they don't
really _clean_ the streets, they just take the dirt from the
gutter and kick it up into the sidewalk.
If the revenue from parking violations were placed in a trust
fund so that it didn't become part of the general income stream,
the politicians would not be so eager to raise fines.
But the streets are swept. When city budget cuts reduced the sweeping schedule from six days to four days per week, alternate side days were cut in tandem.
I agree that the adjudication system is nonsense, but I think that's more a result of ineptitude than of any sort of deliberate malice. A few years ago, my car was registered in Illinois (since I lived there at the time), but it had previously been registered here. I was here to visit, parked on the street. I was shocked one morning to find a ticket on the car for expired New York State registration. You see, even though my Illinois plates were current, I had never bothered to remove the New York sticker from the windshield. Fine, so a cop made a mistake. I went back to Illinois, wrote up a detailed letter, and included a printout of the law that I had supposedly violated, a copy of my Illinois registration receipt, and a photo of the car and its licence plate. The judge didn't bother to look at anything but the photo, and decided that it wasn't proof of anything, so I lost the case. I had to make a personal visit to Brooklyn (well, fine, I was in town anyway for my grandfather's funeral) to appeal the decision. In the end I won, but that's a lot of time and effort to spend because a sleepy cop was too lazy to look at my license plates.
But in a city with such high land values, free on-street parking is a tremendous (involuntary) gift from the non-motorists to the motorists, so I don't have much right to complain.
Incidentally, I got another ticket a few months later. One Monday afternoon, after spending two hours circling for parking in my Manhattan neighborhood, I gave up and drove off to Astoria, where I quickly found parking near the Astoria line. It took less than a half hour to get back home, and my spot was good until the following Monday at 8:30am. At 7:50 I was out the door, with more than enough time to get there -- but I had a long wait for the N/W, and I got to the car at 8:32, where a friendly police officer was in the middle of presenting me with a gift. I politely explained the situation and begged him to stop writing the ticket, but he refused. Only a few days later did I notice that he left one section of the ticket entirely blank, and when I went to contest it, two more defects popped up. Automatic dismissal. Apparently some cops are willing to use their discretion.
Parking tickets are basically a form of random taxation. You never
know when you'll get a $110 ticket for what is basically a minotr
violation, or possibly no violation at all! You can either
pay, mail it in to some administrator who can't or won't read
your written case, or throw good money after bad (after all, time
is money) and waste a day arguing.
As for street sweeping, I remember those cuts. Yeah, it would
be pretty silly to claim that street cleaning parking rules are in
effect when no cleaning is EVER scheduled for that day! But I've
sat and watched and many times, the truck never comes when it is
supposed to. Personally, if the city is tight on money, I'd
rather see street cleaning suspended altogether. Doesn't seem
to actually do anything to clean the street.
And your 0832 ticket is a perfect example of stupid enforcement.
Instead of going after the REAL problems (people completely
blocking hydrants, double-parking and blocking legally parked
cars in, blocking crosswalks, etc.) the brownies camp out and
pick off the low-hanging fruit. Where's the friggin cop when
someone has parked across your driveway or double-parked you
in and you can't get to work?!
Here's how I see it. Parking in Manhattan is worth several hundred dollars per month. I've gotten three parking tickets total, and two were dismissed. After living in NYC full-time with a car for 37 months (plus periodic visits before that), I've paid $55 to park the car on the street. That's less than $1.50 per month. What right do I have to complain? My fellow New Yorkers who don't own cars (or who do own cars but who park them in private garages) are subsidizing me to the tune of hundreds of dollars per month. It's a tremendously unfair arrangement. For a change I'm at the receiving end, but that doesn't make it any less unfair. In a fair world I'd be paying by the minute, whether parked or in motion.
Parking tickets are basically a form of random taxation. You never
know when you'll get a $110 ticket for what is basically a minotr
violation, or possibly no violation at all! You can either
pay, mail it in to some administrator who can't or won't read
your written case, or throw good money after bad (after all, time
is money) and waste a day arguing.
You're missed one small detail. There's one way to guarantee you don't get a parking ticket: don't own a car, or don't park it on the streets of New York. That's how most New Yorkers avoid tickets.
I agree that the fines are high (although in my neighborhood they still seem to be using up the old $55 ticket stock) and that the procedures are capricious. The procedures, at least, should certainly be changed. But I'm also willing to admit that the entire premise of free public parking is unfair and capricious. I don't appreciate the precise details of how the city sometimes raises money from parkers, but in the end, parkers still come out way ahead. So the procedures should change, but so should many other things.
As for street sweeping, I remember those cuts. Yeah, it would
be pretty silly to claim that street cleaning parking rules are in
effect when no cleaning is EVER scheduled for that day! But I've
sat and watched and many times, the truck never comes when it is
supposed to. Personally, if the city is tight on money, I'd
rather see street cleaning suspended altogether. Doesn't seem
to actually do anything to clean the street.
I used to live in a city that had overnight alternate side parking regulations in effect every day of the year, IIRC including weekends and holidays, supposedly for street cleaning. (Alternate side is now not in effect there in the winter.) I was always amused in the spring, when cardboard signs popped up around town prohibiting parking for a day here and a day there so the streets could be cleaned.
For a month or so after 9/11, alternate side was suspended. The streets were filthy. Perhaps you should call DoS and request a different sweeper, because the ones in my neighborhood do make a difference.
And your 0832 ticket is a perfect example of stupid enforcement.
Instead of going after the REAL problems (people completely
blocking hydrants, double-parking and blocking legally parked
cars in, blocking crosswalks, etc.) the brownies camp out and
pick off the low-hanging fruit. Where's the friggin cop when
someone has parked across your driveway or double-parked you
in and you can't get to work?!
On the contrary, when the cop saw me rushing over and heard my story, he put an obvious defect on my copy of the ticket (so I'd know to fight it), and put two more obvious defects on the city's copy (so even the stupidest judge would dismiss it in an instant). He certainly did exercise discretion.
Around here they certainly give out tickets for blocking hydrants and crosswalks. Double parking during alternate side is a time-honored custom in some neighborhoods, although it's quite inconsiderate to double park without leaving a phone number. (I've had to drive on the sidewalk twice to get out of such situations.) It's (ObTransit) bus stops where I think enforcement is too weak. Perhaps the legislature should deputize all bus drivers and should allow for parking tickets by mail. Equip each bus with a digital camera and have bus drivers take pictures of every car parked in a bus stop. At the end of the day, a ticket is in the mail to the owner of every single car that delayed bus service by blocking a bus stop.
And then there are moving violations, which go nearly universally unenforced, except for 50 red light cameras. There's no excuse for that. But it doesn't make free parking any less of a gift.
That would be a superb idea.
Parking in Manhattan costs several hundred dollars per month. "Worth" is a debatable issue.
How much is a monthly MetroCard, which gives you unlimited to just about the entire bus and subway system of NYC "worth"? I would say a lot more than $70, especially if you consider what you would have to do to replace its utility if you didn't have one, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't scream bloody murder if it went up another $10.
No.
The space occupied by an automobile parked on the street in Manhattan is worth several hundred dollars per month on the open market.
Parking in Manhattan doesn't actually cost the parker anything at all if he's fortunate enough to find a legal space on the street.
Who's paying the difference?
Charge $30 per month for a permit to park overnight on the street, and some of the cars would disappear. With less competition for spaces, there would be less illegal parking (and thus tickets) and less double parking (and thus traffic congestion). And this would be only fair, since the property taxes on private garages and the sales taxes on parking in public garages may be as much.
Instead they doubled the fines to raise revenues. It isn't what I would have done. But it maintains the illusion of something for nothing, for those who feel entitled to it.
The supply of on street parking is not zero in New York, though it may be in Tokoyo, so there is no reason to prohibit it here. Moreover, while I'd probably get rid of my car, other people might add curb cuts and pave yard space -- not an ideal solution.
It should, however, be rationed by price. There is no reason for me to use a public space for free that my neighbor does not use. There is no reason for some other neighbors to use three such spaces, also for free.
I detect a distinct Manhattan bias in your post. That might be
the way that the majority of Manhattan residents avoid tickets,
but things are different in the boroughs. Maybe Larry Littlefield
has some numbers. I suspect that the majority of households
outside of Manhattan do own a car.
Draconian parking fines and random enforcement affect all New Yorkers,
not just those who live in New York County.
What is the "open market" value of a parking space in Manhattan?
Saying that it is equal to the cost of garaging the car is
misleading. It isn't a truly open market. It is a market
highly controlled and restricted by parking regulations and
their enforcement. A privileged few city employees and their
friends get special permits that allow them to park basically
anywhere except fire hydrants.
For a month or so after 9/11, alternate side was suspended. The streets were filthy.
Again, maybe a Manhattan/boroughs difference. I recall that time
and I can honestly say there was no perceptible difference in
street cleanliness in Queens.
The cop who deliberately botched the ticket for you was indeed
a nice guy. But had you shown up at 08:33 instead of 08:32, you
would have gotten a nice, valid ticket for being 3 minutes late.
That's the problem with low-hanger enforcement. If enforcement
were truly random, then the expected value of the fines that
one racks up would indeed be proportional to how much of a
parking violator one is. However, enforcement is clearly not
uniform.
I would rather get ticketed a small amount for every parking offense
that I actually commit then to randomly receive large fines
for things of which I am innocent. 10 minutes late to a meter?
OK, how about a $3 fine? Let the punishment fit the crime.
Doesn't an FDNY permit allow one to park at a hydrant? Jeff, if you remember "Frankie Nose," he always used his in such a fashion and was never ticketed.
Don't bother Larry Littlefield. You can look up the numbers yourself (for 2000) on the U.S. Census Bureau website. Table H041.
I already have, if you're willing to trust my calculations. In Manhattan, 77.2% of households have 0 cars. In the Bronx, 59.8%. In Brooklyn, 54.0%. In Queens, 33.8%. In Staten Island, 20.0%. Citywide, 53.6%.
Most New Yorkers avoid tickets by not owning cars to begin with.
Draconian parking fines and random enforcement affect all New Yorkers,
not just those who live in New York County.
They also affect non-New Yorkers who park on the streets and don't even pay taxes here. I'd prefer a more equitable collection system, but at least some of them end up covering some of their expenses.
What is the "open market" value of a parking space in Manhattan?
Saying that it is equal to the cost of garaging the car is
misleading. It isn't a truly open market. It is a market
highly controlled and restricted by parking regulations and
their enforcement.
It's certainly not an open market. Parking garages are competing against free street parking, subsidized by the city. We all saw how well the IRT and BMT did in competition with the IND, even though outside of Queens the IRT and BMT generally have the more popular routings. (There! Back on-topic.)
The open market value of a parking space (anywhere, not just in Manhattan) is the prevailing rent per square foot times the area of the car (plus buffer zones) times the average building height (in floors). In other words, if parking were eliminated and sidewalks were shifted and building lines were moved, how much would that same space be worth if it were occupied by a building?
Free parking is free storage. When and why did it become acceptable practice to permit free storage of cars (and only cars!) on public property? And when will we come to our senses and make it unacceptable practice?
A privileged few city employees and their
friends get special permits that allow them to park basically
anywhere except fire hydrants.
You know I'm as strongly opposed to that as you are.
Again, maybe a Manhattan/boroughs difference. I recall that time
and I can honestly say there was no perceptible difference in
street cleanliness in Queens.
Manhattan side streets get more traffic (vehicular and pedestrian) than Queens side streets. Stuff piles up faster in Manhattan.
Or, as I suggested earlier, maybe your street sweeper is defective. Ask Sanitation to send out a different one from now on.
The cop who deliberately botched the ticket for you was indeed
a nice guy. But had you shown up at 08:33 instead of 08:32, you
would have gotten a nice, valid ticket for being 3 minutes late.
That's the problem with low-hanger enforcement. If enforcement
were truly random, then the expected value of the fines that
one racks up would indeed be proportional to how much of a
parking violator one is. However, enforcement is clearly not
uniform.
And you know what? It would have been a valid ticket. I would have been angry, but this was my first ticket after 11 months of parking on the street for free every day and night, and $35 is an awfully good deal for 11 months' parking in New York City. It's a silly collection scheme, but in the end it still leaves most parkers very much ahead of the game. If we're going to revamp the system, we should revamp the system.
I would rather get ticketed a small amount for every parking offense
that I actually commit then to randomly receive large fines
for things of which I am innocent. 10 minutes late to a meter?
OK, how about a $3 fine? Let the punishment fit the crime.
I agree. Did you see my post about using E-ZPass to charge for parking? How about this arrangement: Up to the permissible parking duration, charge the stated fee (no prepayment required). Once it ends, charge $1 per minute for the first ten minutes and $2 per minute thereafter, with a maximum per occurrence of around $200. That should reinforce the message that short-term meters aren't the place for long-term parking without unduly fining those who run out a minute or two late.
53.6%? That's not the kind of percentage I associate with the
word "most". Perhaps "a narrow majority of New Yorkers..."
The open market value of a parking space (anywhere, not just in Manhattan) is the prevailing rent
per square foot times the area of the car (plus buffer zones) times the average building height (in
floors). In other words, if parking were eliminated and sidewalks were shifted and building lines
were moved, how much would that same space be worth if it were occupied by a building?
Free parking is free storage. When and why did it become acceptable practice to permit free
storage of cars (and only cars!) on public property? And when will we come to our senses and
make it unacceptable practice?
Well, that certainly is one way to view on-street parking. A rather
extreme way. To extend your argument....how much is the sidewalk
worth? The city is "subsidizing" people who walk on the sidewalk.
How about the streets themselves? The city is "subsidizing"
vehicular traffic by providing streets for cars to drive on.
Think about the tax revenue if property owners were allowed to
build out onto the streets.
Of course, that's absurd. Having streets and sidewalks is part
of making the neighborhood livable and usable to both residents
and commerce. So too is parking space. America is a car-centric
society. We can bitch and moan all we want about what might have
been in terms of rail transit, etc., but that doesn't change the
basic fact that parking is one of those things that has to be
provided. You can look at it as subsidy, but no more so than any
other city service that is not used by 100% of the population.
It's a silly collection scheme, but in the
end it still leaves most parkers very much ahead of the game.
Exactly. It is a game. I don't want to play games. What if,
instead of property taxes (maybe you don't pay those directly
if you are a renter) the city periodically came around and
gave property owners $500 tickets for minor or even made-up
violations? What if, instead of sales tax, police officers
randomly came up to you and demanded to see a receipt for
every item you are carrying, and fined you $100 for every
undocumented item?
I'd be perfectly happy to pay more for car registration (I think
it is something like $35/year...talk about low) than to deal with
the stress of random harrasment.
because all houses are high rise apartment, co-ops, complex with public Garages and suburb like Queens Brooklyn, and Staten Island, Broxz houses are single and double families WITH OWN PERSONAL Garages.
I agree that there should be a vigorous crackdown on double parking. There's certainly enough of it going on, and I would imagine that the fine is substantial.
When I lived in Brooklyn, if we saw the sweeper show up once every two months, it was cause for celebration. The cars however, still had to move every Monday and Thursday. Of course, now in Staten Island there are NO sweepers - and no alternate side parking - anywhere. As a result, you can watch cars take root in some spots.
Technically, there's a one-week parking limit everywhere in the city, even without alternate side. Obviously that's not often enforced.
How hard is it to find (unmetered) parking near the ferry or, barring that, near the Verrazano buses? If I don't want to have to bother with the car for a while, I might dump it on Staten Island.
As for sweepers, you said it - I see the sweepers here in Manhattan all the time. Much as some people don't agree, Manhattan is special among the boroughs - it's the last place to suffer every time someplace needs to.
A pretty big mistake.
A mistake that proves that Ms. McQuillan knows nothing about how the subway works.
Why would you believe all of the other details of a subway-related story written by someone who thinks that there's something wrong with exiting through an exit gate?
Because the fines are relatively minor, a lot of people would just pay the fine just to avoid taking time off from work (and possibly spending money for transportation (if not the subway) to get to the place where the ticket is to be fought). To fight the fine may cost some people more than the fine itself. Luckily for me, I had planned to be in the city the day I had my hearing anyway, so it really wasn't an issue to go to the TAB in Brooklyn for a hearing.
Koi
I've reread this 4 times. It still sounds like she says she was coming from Brooklyn and exiting at Times Square.
I suppose the Station Agent could have checked her card to see if she had used it within the time frame.
I use the slam gates a lot when I have my bike with me. People will exit with me, as I guess it is faster than going through the turnstiles. I've also seen people sneak in while I'm going out.
I just noticed that this happened on July 9th.
I'm going to run her name through Google to see if anyone else has covered this story. The results are no guarantee of anything, since even Google News doesn't list every story in every paper.
No, what I mean is that maybe she walked through the passageway, exited the fare-paid zone at the Times Square end, and somehow re-entered the paid zone through the gate.
This "infraction" is a misdemeanor under the NY State Penal Code (Theft of Services). But the officers were still way off line in arresting a 6 month pregnant woman.
But if she indeed had a valid monthly MetroCard, then I don't see how a theft charge can be made to stick. Unless there is a penal code which actually makes it illegal to enter through an exit gate irrespective of payment status, I don't see what the woman has reportedly done that is illegal.
On the other hand, we are only hearing half the story.
The point would be more obvious if you think of climbing a fence to enter the Park Place platform of the Franklin Shuttle. Having a valid MetroCard doesn't permit you to enter any way you please. The MTA has every right to expect you to enter through the turnsiles and swipe your card.
Even the indisputed facts as reported by the paper are muddy. Was she entering or exiting? Big difference. If she was exiting the valid MC is no consequence. If she was entering, the weekly MetroCard implies she is an experienced rider--why would she think she could enter through an open gate instead of the turnstiles?
Preoccupation, tiredness, sheer inattention, something like that. Note that she just had been at the dentist's office, which isn't the sort of thing that'll put most people in a happy attentive mood.
Maybe. But there is a mile of difference between failing to fulfill the MTA's expectations as how you enter the system, and being guilty of theft. If my memory serves me right, the definition of theft is an act which involves taking something with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Oh yes - I totally agree with you. It actually pissed me off a bit reading that story because even without Bloombergs revenue-raising ticketing... I think the NYPD basically abuse their power and do the opposite of what the slogan on the rear side of their vehicles says.
Once recently I spoke out against the NYPD here and another SubTalker had the nerve to basically imply that I feel the way I do about the NYPD because of my "dealings" with them.
Go figure.
I agree I was mad reading this story as well, sounds like another summons that will be thrown out of court.
An invesigation should be held in this case (though I doubt one will happen, because the coppers don't like to admit they were wrong)
It's less than 44" tall...
The main issue though would be if this woman is unable to make her hearing because of childbirth.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
"When stopped on the street, a few women said that tolerating rude and selfish behavior, such as mass murder, on grounds of sex and pregnancy actually demeans women, but most agree that the arresting officer should have used his discretion and let the poor woman off. One man who survived the massacre, however, said he was glad that just before the incident he had elected not to give the woman his seat."
The same idea applies to LIRR cars, by the way.
til next time
Now we just gotta get a lot of ex-jockeys to take the T/O test.
Turn your monitor upside down.
Reverse Slants
I think they run, just not on the Franklin Avenue shuttle. I'll probably be shot if I mention the station in which I saw them. :)
Seriously, I can't even begin to comprehend how many things are wrong with this scene here, let alone ask how any of them came to be...how long did it take you to do that?
Well I think when I did that the latest discussions had the 2 Av line ending at Whitehall. And at the time the list of stations had not been released either. But since that has changed, and I've abandoned that project anyway, so it won't be corrected.
This one took a good deal of time and never got finished:
I ultimately decided an R32 was just too time consuming to model.
Wait -- the subway map was in the middle of the image, and the left of the train is way of the centerline of the view. Also, the distortion happens over to the left or right, but not to the top and bottom (distances away from centerline are not so great).
Did you texture-map those ribs or are they actually modeled in?
The ribs are modelled. Texture mapping wouldn't have cut it for them.
The map wasn't yet in the station when this was made. Also if you could see the R32 is in a 125' station (2 cars) when it was "under construction" whereas the newer "R240" had a more complete station.
TrueSpace (the program I used to create the scene) really sucks when it comes to cameras. You can't set FOV, focal length, etc. You have to do it but usaing the X Y and Z lengths which the program gives no indication what means what. So most of my stuff just used the defaults. I think the slant on the R240 just helped to eliminate the distortion.
Not to nitpick, though. This is an amzing picture!
:-) Andrew
Wayne
avid
David
Never been to San Francisco?
You Know first it will be the 10 GE R32's, then the 200 R38's and
we will be rid of the devil trains!
R44s were the first cars with wide cabs, allowing the conductor to stay in his cab. Every car before that was built the same as the Slants. Look at the 32s, it is jsut the same.
Now maybe StL can or cannot make good cars, but the DESIGN is NYCT an not StL's.
Now then, MY FAVORITE car was rhe Arnines (R1-9 series) with the conductor STANDING BETWEEN THE CARS to operate the doors. I used to ride between the cars, and pretend I was the conductor, and would climb up onto the conductor's steps. Naturally I did it on the wall side of the train, it would not do to be caught doing it, you know.
The Locked end doors are going away, and will not appear on any new subway cars. Because there will be no more 75' subway cars. The 44s/46s etc had to have the end doors (we call them storm doors) because of the shearing action when the trains made the curves and switches, and because there was no "porch" outside of the doors, but the doors were smooth against the front of the car.
Elias
til next time
wordlife
"Tell the a--hole to compare the Air Conditioning power of a slant to his precious R46 piece of s--t the next time sweat's pouring off his body like a faucet in the middle of summer waiting at Whitehall station! Or the endearing value of heated "bench-style seating" on a cold winters morn on a slant, warming ones ass, while the "climate control" heating of the R46's could keep a snowman comfortable (that goes for the 68/68A's as well! The bench seating is phenomenal! Plenty of room for the "American" body, whereas I'm sure he enjoys the ever popular "middle seat" of the three-seat bench on the 46, 68 and 68a's! Yeah, nothing like rubbing against your sweaty neighbors in that climate controlled HELL! Oh and by the way, try looking out the cross-cab of the R46 next time; wonderful view through the blackened abyss (unless you're lucky enough to find the elusive "scratched window", which features the popular keyhole view through the glass. Give me slants! I've been saying this for years now!"
The TTC Subway was even "cooler" when the "Guards" (what they call subway conductors in Toronto) used to blow an ordinary whistle twice before closing the doors.
To hear what TTC Subway cars sound like today, Turn Up The Volume and Click Here
nt.
LOL ;-)
More seats for the rest of us!
Jimmy
Jimmy
The Green Hornet and the Bluebird had chimes, but were not NYC cars, they were BMT cars.
So the first NYC purchased car with door chimes was the R44.
Elias
Especially since St Louis Car Co built the R-44!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Well, since all that's all over...
BRING THE 7-DAY V!
To say the least...!
But I'd like to see it anyway.
The transfer at Court Square is a cinch compared to many others in the system. It's not like every G passenger has to use it, either -- it's only one Manhattan-bound option, along with the 7, L, A/C, and (marginally) F. And this change would give them the V as well as the E at Court Square.
I am sure the same can be done if, for whatever reason, 85' MU's were desired to run. Of course, IND modifications would be easier, since the IND was built with broader curves and clearances unlike the ancient BRT tunnels, like the beauty between Cortlandt and City Hall.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Jimmy
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(B): Probably not.
-The switches at 135/145
-The turns at 7 Av
(C): No.
-The switch at Hoyt
-The turns at Jay
-The turn at Bway-Nassau
-The switch at Canal (for that matter, the turn at Canal)
-The switch at 145
-The layup at 168
(D): No.
-The turn at 205, and the switches at 205
-The turns at 7 Av
(E): Probably not.
-The turn at 50th St
-The switch at WTC
(F): Maybe.
-The turn at Delancey
-The switch at Bergen*
-The zigzag between 7 Ave and Church*
-The switches at Ave X (difficult yard access)
* - could be solved by running it express.
(G): Maybe.
-The turn from Bergen to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
(H): Yes.
(J): Hell no.
-The turn at Marcy
-The turn at Cypress Hills
-The switch at Myrtle**
-The turn at Cresecnt/Cypress Hills
-The turn at Essex
-The turn at Bowery
-The N/B turn and switches at Chambers St
** - could be solved by running it local.
(L): Hell no.
-The turn at Grahm Ave
-The switches at 8th Ave
-The switches at E 105/Rock Pkwy
-The turn at Bway Jct/Atlantic (even with the new alignment)
(M): Hell no.
-Metropolitan Ave: Forbidden completely
-The turn at Seneca Ave
-The turn at Marcy
-The turn at Myrtle/Wyckoff
-The curved platforms at FP, Forest, & Seneca
-The turn at Essex
-The turn at Bowery
-The turn at Chambers (approaching, N/B)
-The switches north of Chambers
(N): No.
-The switches and turn at 59 St/7 Av
-The Montague tunnel from Whitehall to Pacific
-The Manhattan Bridge from DeKalb to Pacific
-City Hall
-Turns at Queensboro Plaza
(Q)/<Q>: No.
-The turn at Canal St
-DeKalb to 7 Ave
-Turn at Coney Island/W 8 St
(R): No.
-The turn at 59 St/7 Ave
-Whitehall to Pacific
-The switches at the 75 Ave lower level relay
-The curves at 36 St
-City Hall
-The switch from 60 St to Queens Plaza
(S): No.
-The turn at Prospect Pk
-The switch at Botanic Gdn
-The switch at Park Pl
-The turn at Franklin Av
(S): Maybe.
-The turn at Grand St/Bway-Lafyette
(V): Probably not.
-The switches of the lower level relay at 75 Ave
-The switch at Queens Plaza (n/b especially)
-The switch at 5 Av/Madison
-The switches at 2nd Ave
(W): No. Same reasons as N, + the following:
-The turn at 25 Avenue
-The turn at Ft Hamilton Pkwy
-The turn at 4 Av/39 St
-The switches on Broadway
(Z): Hell no. Same reasons as J.
You won't believe what the TA had to do to certain areas just to get the 75' cars to fit.
What? And which areas?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I'm told they ran into 750 V power, and were none the worse for it, except that the TA had to clean off added carbon deposits...
Wayne
A longer wheel base results in greater end excess and center excess on curves. This results in a violation of the existing/expected limiting line of car equipment (i.e. the car's envelope), and intrudes upon the limiting line of line equipment (in other words, the longer car will hit fixed objects installed along the right of way). To accomodate 75-foot cars many catwalks on curves had to be chipped away, e.g. between Cortlandt St. and City Hall on the B-1 Division, just to mention one location. There were probably some signals and other wayside equipment that had to be moved as well, but the physical evidence of that has been effaced. (Remember, they ran the feeler car to determine where they were going to have to make modifications.)
"and why wasnt it done on the Eastern division?"
$$$, seems to be one obvious answer. Too many structural modifications would have had to have been made, aside from the simple fix of chipping concrete. There are other issues, but they are best left unsaid.
LIRR/MNRR cars will never be permitted to share facilities with NYCT because the cars don't match each other in crash characteristics.
Most of the B division would have to be widened, and brought up to FRA standards at a cost of b'zillions of dollars.
And then, after all that, the platform heights of cars are like 1 foot different from one another, so you couldn't use the same stations!
--Mark
I thought none of the R-62 external speakers worked anymore.
Oh boy. Allen, this is your cue...
OTOH, I'm having trouble pulling up some of Choo Choo's photos. Not that any of them were worth seeing, anyway, as long as mine are available.
Or you can see my 6/8 MOD photos instead. (They're hosted on a different server.)
That's because they were in a temporary location when I posted them, and now they are in a permanent album on my site, and I have posted the link to my site many times.
Not that any of them were worth seeing, anyway, as long as mine are available.
CPCTC was clearly talking about the quality of your photos. Mine are superior.
He commented on it because I work for Chase (but not Home Equity). I responded that they don't tell us everything.
There you have it. It has a picture of a house. Now nobody else will be surprised.
Weekdays 6 AM-11 PM: From Main St/Flushing, via/ Flushing Express Peak direction only to Queensboro Plaza, then Broadway local from Queensboro Plaza to Whitehall St. Use modified R62A cars that have car extensions (much like gap fillers at SF, Times Square, and Union Square) for all stops in Manhattan and Queensboro Plaza.
There you have it.
The switch from the 7 to the N/W is on the upper level only, ie Queens-bound trains can use it. For service to run as you described, you would have an in-bound train wrong-rail from the end of the Flushing express track through Queensboro Plaza and down the ramp almost to the portal before returning to the correct track.
You're talking about a maintenance, safety, and operational nightmare that buys very little and costs a lot.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The Second Ave Subway should be designed as a dual-division line as to allow 2,5 and 6 line trains to use it to ease congestion on the lex. The cost would be be an insignificant percentage of the total cost of the line.
Also remember that when CI yard moves of the 7 line cars are made, there's always a single with dual tripcocks on both ends.
Equipment that needs to run on both divisions gets cocks on each side. That's why Redbird moves on and off of the Flushing line are always led by (I forget, a 33 single?)
Not an intractable problem, it's one of those "if we wanted to do it, we'd do it" things.
Mark
Now, weren't the gate cars on the BMT IRT width? From what I understand the Q-Cars and gate cars were IRT width but still ran on the same lines as the Standards and later BMT cars, such as on the Myrtle north of Bway.
And, as an added benefit, you get to "sweep" up everyone waiting too close to the platform.
But I have a feeling that extenders would fall outside the clearance envelope on the original IRT.
How about attaching the extenders to the train, but making them retractable? In other words, build the gap fillers into the car.
(Yeah, I know, it'll never happen, but I think that it's pretty obvious that none of this will ever happen anyway. It's good exercise to pick the most feasible of a bunch of flawed pipe dreams.)
Mark
Gee, I never thought of that! And I thought I had the perfect solution. Well, back to the drawing board!
PS: Does anyone know how they did it on Myrtle Avenue?
Not really. We're talking about a board 6" wide here. Who would wait within 6" of the platform edge?
Call 1-800-SUETHEM
The doors in R142 cabs are offset by a foot, or two than the doors in the R142 cab-less cars.
Not at all. The third rail's position is fixed relative to the running rails, not to the platform. It may be helpful to draw a diagram.
Mark
Except you're shifting them 14 inches, so you'd need a REALLY wide third rail. Even if you could do it, you'd probably be violating some clearance rules that are sacred for a reason. Zap!
The only way to do this would be to use two third rails, which means sticking 650V directly beneath the platform. It happens, but rarely. It's generally considered a no-no. Zap!
Mark
It happens, by necessity, at every single express station on a three-track line (except Willets Point).
It is standard ptratice in Philly and there has never been a problem with the 3rd rail under the platform lip. Having the 3rd rail under the platform makes it safer for track workers who have a reason to be on the track level in the first place.
Except you're shifting them 14 inches
No, neither.
An IRT car is 9' wide. A BMT/IND car is 10' wide.
Presuming that both are roughly symmetrical, there is a 6" difference on either side.
gant·let1 P Pronunciation Key (gôntlt, gänt-)
n.
A section of double railroad tracks formed by the temporary convergence of two parallel tracks in such a way that each set remains independent while traversing the same ground, affording passage at a narrow place without need of switching.
tr.v. gant·let·ed, gant·let·ing, gant·lets
To converge (railroad tracks) to form a gantlet.
Also, one of the early 3rd rail using tunnel railroads, I cannot recall if it was the B&O's Howard St, the St Clair tunnel, or the Detroit tunnel, used gantlet track with their 3rd rail equipped trains. The Gantlet track was used for high-wide loads that needed to go down the center of the double track tunnel (I think only Howard St was double track, St Clair was single track, and Detroit was two single tracks). The electric engines had supports which would allow the shoe to maintain contact with the 3rd rail even when the engine would be some 2-3 feet from the rail. Such a practice would be difficult and somewhat maitenance intensive, not exactly something for a major trunk line.
Of course if the subway had just been built with a slightly higher clearance and 1500-3000VDC overhead, then all this 3rd rail nonsense would be vastly simplified! :-)
"gauntlet" and "gantlet" are simply two variant spellings of
the exact same English word. The railroad use of gauntlet/gantlet
track most likely derives from the expression "running the gauntlet",
i.e. going down the center between two rows of steel.
As are "gantelet", "gantlope", "gatlopp" and several other spellings. The point is that "gauntlet" is the only current spelling that would be recognised throughout the English-speaking world. See the following entry from the Oxford English Dictionary:
Gantlet, obs. f. GAUNTLET.
There, "gantlet" is obsolete. I might as well spell "children" "childre", "show" "shew", "jeopardy" "jupardy", etc...
Yet the current dictionary defination of these two words are as follows:
Gantlet: A combining of two railroad tracks on one right of way
and
Gauntlet: A metal glove worn as a part of a suit of armor.
OK, som my dictionary wasn't all *that* new...
but if one needs to speak of railroad tracks, an educated person would use the correct word.
: ) Elias
The cost of having gauntlet track would be astronomical! This
isn't some mainline railroad with stations every few miles. You'd
need to have an extra pair of switches for each track of each
station, plus extra rails. Plus, you need more track circuits,
more IJs, etc. Plus, some sort of interlocking system to
prevent A division trains from taking the wrong lineup.
The ratio of station track to inter-station track in the NYCT
system, on local lines in Manhattan, is about 1 to 5. So the
relative track cost goes way up. That's more stuff to inspect
and maintain on an ongoing basis too.
Let's round up and say that for each station the cost of a gauntlet track is 1 million dollars. At 20 or so stations you add $20 million dollars to what, a 3-7 BILLION dollar project? What about Dual trip stops? Not a problem as the stop machines can be configured to trip right, left or BOTH!
The frog is the most expensive part of a turnout?? Not really,
at least not the turnouts that NYCT uses. They aren't these
big, high-number RBM frogs designed for 100 MGT/year of 286,000
pound coal hoppers pounding over them at 50 MPH. Probably the
biggest single line item is the switch machine.
If the line is not signalled for reverse direction, then you can
get away with a spring switch at the leaving end. Otherwise
you need a homeball, approach signal and stops for each end
of each station track. Admitedly, with conventional wayside
signaling, the signals and stops were already there (two automatics
instead of the home and approach). With CBTC, the standard is
to protect switches with wayside signals, so you have added
4 signals to each station. You still need an interlocking
plant or some equivalent way to provide approach and detector
locking on the switches. You still need a sensor system
to figure out which way to throw the switch (that _should_
be easy under CBTC)
Even at $200 million, yes, the figure is dwarfed by the overall
project cost. But, what's the point? It's not like a 2-track
SAS line would have loads of excess tph capacity. Why spend
extra money for the privilege of wasting track space with
IRT-sized carloads?
Frogs are incredibly maintainence intensive and I was assuming that they would use something a little better than the candy ass frogs they've got up on the els. BTW switch machines run around 5k each.
You still need an interlocking
plant or some equivalent way to provide approach and detector
locking on the switches.
Interlockings todays are solid state jobbers that are plug and play. A gauntlet track is the second easiert interlocking to wire up from a derail. Much more than $1 a piece is just plain incompotence.
Even at $200 million, yes, the figure is dwarfed by the overall
project cost. But, what's the point? It's not like a 2-track
SAS line would have loads of excess tph capacity. Why spend
extra money for the privilege of wasting track space with
IRT-sized carloads?
But where is the SAS going to come from? The south Bronx? A connection with the 4,5,6? I don't know why the SAS isn't A division period as all of its feeder trains would be comming off the 5/6.
As much as I'm a Bronx boy and IRTland is 9 feet wide, expansion and growth REQUIRES that at some point, the 9 foot limitation be dealt with and IRTwork get wider cars somehow. Know it ain't practical, and replacing the Steinway chuckle (among other IRT narrow gauge laughter) will be nearly impossible, the LAST thing we would want to do is conform MORE railroad to limiations. The IRT is packed to the gills NOW because there ain't enough room to haul passengers.
Sticking the SAS with a 9 foot reality is pure insanity. Time to extend the D train, perhaps reroute the DYRE or anything else that can be recaptured in 10 foot scale ... the IRT has ALWAYS been a joke with their toy trains ... it's not something that should be encouraged with new builds. No offense, I grew up and always LIVED in the IRT borough, but enough is enough. It was a great idea in 1904, it's TONKA TOYS with respect to the NEEDS.
Why? The vehicle weight and traffic frequency are the same.
If the current frogs work, why go with more expensive ones?
You keep on forgetting this is a transit system, not a mainline
railroad.
Interlockings todays are solid state jobbers that are plug and play. A gauntlet track is the second easiert
interlocking to wire up from a derail. Much more than $1 a piece is just plain incompotence.
Solid-state interlockings (Vital Signal Processors) are Plug and
PAY. OK, cheaper than installing an 8 lever Model 14 and a tower
operator to throw it, but by no means cheap.
What does "$1 a piece" mean? One million dollars?
But where is the SAS going to come from? The south Bronx? A connection with the 4,5,6? I don't know why the
SAS isn't A division period as all of its feeder trains would be comming off the 5/6.
Of course this is all fantasy talk, but... If the SAS is built
as the "stubway" terminating at 63 St, don't worry about the
Bronx connection. There will be so little capacity that it
would just be a line to serve the upper east side. If it is
built all the way downtown, then a logical routing would be
to have a portion of the Queens service coming across 63 St turn
South. As for the Bronx portion, upgrade the Westchester Ave/Pelham
line to B division standards and make that the feeder.
Proposing that any new trunk lines be built to the obsolete
IRT loading gauge is absurd. The dual contracts were built
with the ultimate conversion of the entire system to "B division"
dimensions in mind. As much as I love the IRT historically, those
narrow cars are plain and simple a waste of track capacity.
It is possible but the MTA won't go for it. Build a standard B division tunnel, standard B division platforms with platform extenders for A division trains.
It's been done before on the Flushing and Astoria lines. At Queensboro plaza a BMT train would run on the Flushing line and a IRT train would run to Astoria. I don't think it was a big sucess but it's how the 7 got its soul connection to the Main Line.
Not exactly. The BMT train was IRT width. Main Line BMT trains terminated at QBP with a transfer to the Flushing/Astoria shuttle.
As anywhere, conflicts were resolved by scheduling and tower operations, and by the time you reached the bridge, there were really just the two lines converging. They operated on closer headways then now, and were able to operate much closer together than now.
Add to this the fact that all lines did not cross Brooklyn Bridge. Overflow traffic from Fulton could go to Kings County station (adjacent to Sands Street) or Fulton Ferry, and significant traffic from Myrtle ended at the Sands Street Loop.
- Myrtle
- Lexington
- Fulton
- 5th Ave
- Culver
- Brighton
That corridor must've been as congested as the Dekalb Ave one was for the BRT's subway lines. Combine that with shorter, narrower trains which had a longer dwell time at each station to load/unload passangers via the open gates and I can only imagine the mess which must've been an everyday sight.
You can add West End to that mix, pre-4th Avenue subway, as well as Sea Beach, though these were coupled to other lines' trains, so we're talking about seven discrete lines.
This was managed in a number of ways:
Trains were shorter: max length of most (if not all) rush hours el trains was 250' or shorter.
Trains were closer: They crossed Brooklyn Bridge by visual rules.
Park Row was a beehive of complexity and traffic: At its height there were two double length and three train length platforms with four main tracks and two tail tracks. All these tracks and platforms were variously assigned for exit duties and/or for the loading of various lines.
Exactly how this worked I'm not sure, but it must have involved some careful dispatching. For example, Brighton trains occupied the southern of the two tail tracks, while West End trains occupied the southernmost main track. So a Brighton would be "behind" a West End as each loaded on its respective platforms. I assume the two trains were dispatched simultaneously, so the Brighton train would follow the West End train out on visual rules, thereby clearing two platform tracks simultaneously.
It must have been a sight to see and a great example of heads-up railroading.
Not true!
There was a moving block system with ATC during the cable car days. This permitted them to operate 90 tph and make sure that trains did not change their relative spacing while on the bridge. They averaged 40 tph over the entire 24 hour day.
The built a block system for el train operation. Block lengths were 100 feet to enforce a minimum 700 foot spacing between trains. Train operation was manual. The system permitted 66 tph operation between Sands St and Park Row.
Brooklyn Bridge el traffic peaked in 1907 or 1908. The extension of the IRT to Atlantic Ave burst the bubble. The Park Row Terminal was reduced around 1934 to reflect its diminished use. This reduction made high volume service impossible.
It's an amusing take to consider cable as "moving block ATC." :)
The minumum 700 foot spacing between trains was due to a weight restriction for the Brooklyn Bridge. Maximum emergency braking distance from maximum attainable speed usually would have determined minimum safe train separation. The question would be how accurate does one need to know the train positions. That's what dictated the choice of 100 foot blocks throught the bride's length.
All the pre WWII cars were supposed to stop within 250 feet. The R10 was the first car that did not meet this criterion. The follower during the WB accident did not stop within 362 feet.
However, the key to the high service levels was the use of two tracks going into four track stations at either end. This essentially doubled maximum service levels. The theoretical limit for single track stations is around 40-45 tph. The double track stations doubled this to 80-90 tph.
Why is it that I always get blamed for things that other people do more often?
I think it was probably a lot like the Ultimate Ride experience, with lots of side trips, and people coming at you first from the left, then from the right, and sheer exhaustion, and thinking you can't go on, and it all just looks the same anyway.
But, hey, the bathroom breaks were a lot easier!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
C'mon, we can all hope, right?
:-)
Does any one know what is being built?
It looks like a rail maintance building
Thank You
Call LIRR, if you're curious, and ask.
HOLY $#1T!!!! What an awesome piece of work!! It actually had a new train smell, and the seats were wonderfully comfortable, and I could barely even feel the car moving!! I'd never been so excited riding on a train before. And there were only two other people in my entire car besides me, so I was able to move freely up and down the aisle and jump from seat to seat without being embarrassed or labeled as a demented retard. I was really upset when I got to Flushing a few minutes later, because I didn't want to get off yet! Luckily though, the conductor never came through the car, so I still have a good ticket for the next time I decide to take a little ride.
I also tried out the nice, big bathroom in the car. *thumbs up*
Well now, since I'm dying to learn more about these cars, and since TransiTalk is down, NYCSubway doesn't cover the LIRR, and Carlton's LIRR page doesn't have too much info, can anyone here answer some of my questions?
1.) How many of these M-7s are there?
2.) How many will there be eventually?
3.) Do these M-7s operate on all LIRR lines? I believe this is the first time I've ever seen one on the Port Washington branch. Is it a common sight there?
4.) From reading some earlier posts about the M-7s on Subtalk, it seems that some people know that an M-7 will almost always be used on a certain run. Like for instance, they know that the 1:00 out of Penn Station on the Port Jefferson line will be an M-7. How do they know, and is there any kind of a schedule I can look at so I can know exactly when to catch one? I want to take my dad on one of these M-7s too.
Thanks in advance!
As for “new train smell”, I have never smelled any such distinct scent of newness from a train myself.
Robert
Ok, you need to get out more :) Wouldn't riding a mainline steam train at 60mph make you more excited?
Now I aint no expert on the M-7's, but I do know a few things. However, for this question, I'd have to say enough to replace all the M-1's and in the future to replace atleast half the M3's.
3.) Do these M-7s operate on all LIRR lines? I believe this is the first time I've ever seen one on the Port Washington branch. Is it a common sight there?
They will on all the electrified ones. I've seen quite a few now parked in the yard(track 1) here in Port Washington, but its usually for the weekend. I don't know how frequent they run though.
As for my opinion on the M7's.....Since they carry much fewer people, they're a bad investment. I understand bout the whole ADA thing wit the bathrooms, but really. Also, they could be placed somewhere other than the middle of the car(try the end of the cars). Also, the full width cabs, damn the FRA. Now us railfans don't got no head end view.
I'm glad though that they did away with the NY state seal wallpaper. Geez, even the cars that the Cape Cod Central has still has that wallpaper!!!(and I thought I was going on vacation, sheesh).
The electric anouncement signs w/e. I have had both good and bad experiences with those. I'm kinda stuck in the middle with them. The ones on the outside are good though for those waiting at stations served by multiple lines.
All in all, my opinion is that overall, the M-7's are not so great. LIRR coulda worked a bit harder to make a better design, but they're not horrible.
Methinks you exaggerate a little...
"I understand bout the whole ADA thing wit the bathrooms, but really. "
I don't think you understand it at all.
"Also, they could be placed somewhere other than the middle of the car(try the end of the cars)."
But the FRA demanded a full-width cab- if you don't like that, write to your Congressperson.
You tell me, cuz I never said that. I know railfans and the FRA have clashed, this is just another example.
My biggest problem with the M7s are their lack of any sort of soundproofing, and their awful ride. the only thing going for them is their better interior decoration, and their better interior lighting.
This Friday, Aug 1st, another famed tower along the Pittsburgh
Division will close for good. "C" (Conemaugh) Tower will go remote from
Pittsburgh ending an era.
Those of you in the Johnstown Pa. area this weekend should pay
a visit to "C" Tower. It won't be long before ALTO Tower goes remote. I
think that is the last manned tower left between Harrisburg and
Pittsburgh.
C(onemaugh) tower controls JW and AO interlockings as well. Status of PRR Position Lights and pneumatic switches is unknown. C interlocking was a place there helpers were frequently attached to heavy eastbound trains. In 1994 the most important section of the PRR mainline bristled with towers including MG, SO, MO, ALTO and C. Soon only ALTO will remain. C is in a newish cinderblock structure and contains a toggleboard style interlocking machine.
Here are some photos of C taken from a passing Amtrak train:
--Mark
I checked on Google and found that Pittsburgh had 6 cars, which I think they fabricated themselves. They were all destroyed in fires by the mid 1920's. It was a real kick seeing this.
Double Deck Trolley Car Seats 110 People
Double-deck trams (trolleys) still operate in Blackpool, England, and in Hong Kong.
I wonder if there's any risk of electrocution if you were to stick your hand out the upper windows and touch the wire?
I think Seashore Trolley Museum has a double decker.
Blackpool is the only tram system in the UK that survived right through from the old tramway era - there are now new LRV systems coming in in various places, but these are all single-deck only.
I have ridden on the Blackpool double-deckers, and also rode on double-deck trams in London, Leeds, Sheffield and Glasgow before they were abolished. I also rode double-deck trolley buses every day, to high school 40-odd years ago. I've never been to Hong Kong, but their transit systems follow British traditions, and I believe their old double-deck trams survive.
Something like that is what I want to run on Broadway, except that mine would be painted GREEN, and would run two or three cars long.
: ) Elias
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
Friday I'm taking my wife to dinner in a fancy restaurant right next to one of the stations, then we will take it Union Station where we will take the Red Line to Hollywood and Vine where we will cross the street and see "The Producers". What the heck, it will our 33rd wedding anniversary and I loved the play when I saw it in New York.
However, the key is not the play or my anniversary, but the fact that the Gold Line is a hell of a ride. I give it a grade of "A".
Sorry, only my Sea Beach gets an A-plus.
To anyone who takes the time to answer, thank you.
In a way, 42nd Street shuttle, 3 tracks each.
It has no physical connection with the TA, it is an FRA railroad (though operating udner a waiver, which could be removed).
BTW, a stub-end terminal has no tail tracks.
Jimmy
"Two Directions Possible for old NYC Rail Line"
Convert to an Elevated Trail or Demolish?
The article is also on line at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-07-28-highline_x.htm
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=155723&category=NATIONAL&newsdate=7/29/2003
So much for that "republicans are friends of rail" nonsense ...
Jimmy
And since the media's still sucking up to Shrub in hopes of getting the cross-ownership policies they want, nothing about this even in that article. But yeah, this isn't set in stone yet ... but the spray painting on the wall is hard to ignore. :)
Every two years, the House of Represntatives get to go home and face the local voters, and they know it.
AMTRAK got 6 years from Shrub in this latest "hit", and 6 years is political eternity. A LOT can change in 6 years.
So I would give this one a 3 on the worry meter. Local taxes get a 5.
By the time AMTRAK is supposed to go away forever (and doesn't), the Redbirds will have become like the LOw-V's : fondly remembered, but not on the tracks any more, at least on the IRT.
In the day that we used that truck, we made seven fuel stops over a total distance traveled of about 700 miles (that included a side trip down Merrick Blvd in Queens). It would have been six, but having to bring the truck back in Saturday night NY traffic forced us to make yet another pit stop. That roughly averages out to 100 miles per pit. Now, consider this: I went down to S.C. a few years ago in a mid-size car (Olds Alero). A distance of 600 miles. All that was needed was ONE pit in the DC area (aisde from the agency provided gas). How's that for fuel efficiency?
Or even better, let's say we had went on Amtrak on either trip. To Vermont, it would have been a P32/40AC for the trip from Penn Station to Albany, and then the change to a straight diesel P30/40 series for the rest of the way to Burlington. If it were not for the power change policy, my guess is (from what I do understand about diesel electric locomotives) that the P32/40AC could actually make it all the way up there. Or, a straight P30/40 diesel from Penn could. That also is the case with Silver Service trains making a power change at either Philadelphia or Washington - one fill up to Jacksonville, or all the way down to Miami/Tampa.
This does not bode well for Amtrak in terms of what the politically connected oil companies see in profitable customers. Airlines and people who put up with SUVs are far better investments.
Even my 1965 Ranchero (200 c.i.d. 6 cylinder, three speed standard transmission) beats your SUV in fuel mileage on the open road - I get about 20 mpg with that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
The SUV is the product of CAFÉ (Corporate Average Fuel Economy). CAFÉ Killed the full size four door sedan and station wagon.
Disclaimer;
I drive an econo box, 2003 Ford Focus.
John
N Bwy
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030730/ap_on_go_co/energy_bill_2
For everyone else though, where do YOURS stand (or sit) on this one?
If my some extent you mean the POSSIBILITY of through train service between Boston and Washington and nothing else then yes, you are correct.
After all, states are NOT going to pay for trains running in OTHER states, so it'll be like "old europe" at each border. Off the train, lug your stuff across the border, pay for a new train. This has got to be the most insane crackpipe dream I've ever heard of. A literal creation of the UNunited States of America ...
"Old Europe" thought this was INSANITY. You can now get on a train in England and go all the way to Switzerland now. :-\
I guess what I'm saying is if I'm going to get taken for a ride, the least they can do is make a small portion of it on STEEL WHEELS. :)
Can't argue there, I'd just rather not be taken on the ride at all.
But hey ... "old europe" ... I'm SURE it'll work HERE. :)
MTA Metro North/ConnDOT (Huh? Can the alliance hold?) having to run New Haven line trains to Providence, to connect with MBTA trains to South Station - Boston. RIPTA getting squeezed out in the process since they do not have a commuter rail to speak of.
NJT running trains to 30 Street Station for connection to SEPTA trains to Balitmore, since MARC does not consistently run trains up as far as Wilmington or Marcus Hook, PA. In the meantime Delaware DOT has two rival agencies taking up space in its two largest cities: Newark and Wilmington.
VRE running trains as far south as the Hampton Roads area every two-three hours, to make up for the loss of Amtrak service south and east of Richmond.
METRA running trains to Indianapolis, whereas Indiana has (TMK) no commuter rail service.
CALTrans to Reno, or Las Vegas.
TRAIN 130 - VINNIE'S TAXIEXPRESS TRAIN SERVICE to CAMDEN - Track 4
TRAIN 150 - LESTER LINES LOCAL CABOOSE SERVICE to Pine Plains - Track 3
TRAIN 151 - GREYHOUNDCONTINENTAL AIRLINES LOCAL to Raritan and Pascack - Track 7
TRAIN 161 - BMTMAN KREISLER EXPRESS to East Haven - Track 7 (DELAYED due to collision with train 151)
Somehow, I just don't see this working. Maybe it's just me. :)
You know, not to get serious here, but the way the seriously learning-impaired learn, ultimately, is through experience. If you want a Texas congressman to see what a dead railroad looks like, don't tell him, show him, and better sooner than later.
THAT MAKES ME SO DAMN MAD! DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!
only if she went into labor and made the brakeman deliver the kid...
:0)
Of course this is all conjecture, the debate to continue support for AMtrak always pops up in congress, we just have to sit back and see how it all goes.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Go to the walkway over the 7 platforms in Times Square. Go to the strange room hovering over the North platform. Staying in the public area, stand infront of the door marked "Transit T-2 Office" and look straight up. In the time-worn and shadowy rafters you will see something very normal, but in an unusual spot. There is an ordinary blue police barricade marked "POLICE LINE - DO NOT CROSS," Or words to that effect. How it got there, why it got there, and how long has it been there is the question.
L line (entire length)
J line (all stations)
M line (from Broad St to Metropolitan Ave.)
Two car 75 footers are used for the Franklin Ave shuttle due to the platform's length.
So 75 footers can be used on any lettered line except the L, J/Z, and M lines. NYCT refers these lines as part of the Eastern Division.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Another reason is that the only powered connection between the L and the rest of the system is via the Williamsburg Bridge.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Anyway, they look fine to me. Hey, I've been to Columbus Circle so many times and never noticed the bluish lights. I'm assuming their flouresent as well, right?
Those lights aren't blue. The blueness is do to an error by the camera. There is some term for it. Apparently it happens when you use low aperture values. And some cameras do it worse than others. The Canon G3 is pretty bad with this, I hear. But it is nowhere near as bad as my Toshiba in the area.
Yesterday I was in NYC trying some underground shots, and the pictures came out way too dark. Unfortunately I believe I had my shutter speed at something like 1/25 or something a little faster. Do you use a far slower speed for your pics and have really steady hand to prevent blurriness? Or do you prop the camera against something?
I do not understand the decision to single track and eliminate platform space rather than seal some off. The TA lost a potential emergency re-route in the event of a bridge closure.
I've wondered the same thing. Not on the platform length--that's easily remedied. If there were a bad enough emergency, they could have wooden platform extensions in a matter of days. But the single track is now "set in concrete" (or steel).
It's almost as if they were saying "OK, the community wanted the shuttle, so we rebuilt the shuttle, even if we don't value it--but we're not going to pretend we consider it of any real importance--two car trains and a minimum 10 minute headway is all you get."
It would be wonderful irony if its popularity increased to the point where they have to upgrade it.
Another thing that kills me about the FAS renovation is that they didn't have the sense to put in a diamond crossover south of Botanic Garden to replace the single, useless switch that currently exists. The Malbone tunnel is not haunted or anything. They could send trains through there-if they would have just added a switch. Fools.
Well, maybe not, I suppose ...
A diamond crossover or replacement switch isn't a huge deal to do in future and can still be done if that is what is required for service or for non-revenue moves. I am assuming that thie existing switch cannot be used at all, from your description. They didn't do it because there are a lot more iumportant things to do right now. They're smart to allocate manpower to more urgent needs.
Find something else to worry about.
Guess you haven't been there lately. Legend has it that on a full moon night you can hear the ghost of the Gate cars squealing through the curve...
You're making a big ado about nothing. The whole line is 1.25 miles long, and if I recall correctly regarding the proportion which is single-tracked, you can achieve better than 6tph on the line.
There is such a thing as never being able to appreciate what is done for you, and in this case the TA did a fine job, really first class in bringing the Shuttle back. They even opened a new transfer which previously was omly available to employees and transit police, and added ADA compliance (though not to all stops).
So stop your silly whining. When ridership climbs to the point that the line needs more service or longer platforms or an extended second track, we can revisit the issue.
:0)
I also think the MTA did a good job in making the shuttle a viable line again but that does not mean they could not have done better. Not everything they do on that line can be justified by resorting to the fact that they might have scrapped it.
"So stop your silly whining. When ridership climbs to the point that the line needs more service or longer platforms or an extended second track, we can revisit the issue."
You are being disingenuous with this comment. We all know that having to make changes to the infrastrucutre of the line makes expansion more difficult than it could have been. I do not think that being smart enough to recognize that should be seen as whining. While you say that we can revisit the issue, the point is that the present configuration of the line is a barrier to future uses, ones that Larry Littlefield and Paul Matus have pointed out here, ones that were reasonably foreseeable at the time.
No, I'm not.
" We all know that having to make changes to the infrastrucure of the line makes expansion more difficult than it could have been. "
You're exaggerating its effect. The whole rebuild was $70 million, and and neither you nor Larry nor Paul have shown that a physical expansion is even necessary, now or in the near future.
So maybe you're the one being disingenuous.
Like I said, stop whining.
Anyway, if service demands it, all they have to do is extend the platforms. It's not that big a deal. The BMT did it in 1924, from approx. 250 feet to approx. 400 feet and they said at the time that they could easily extend to 8 (67' car) platforms if they needed to.
Now, if they need to be put in a second track, that would be a bit of work.
--Mark
Perhaps because of the tight turning radius: City Hall on the N/R; Chambers on the 2/3; E Tremont on the 2/5.
How are ya gonna make an articulated car do that?
The big minus of articulated cars is that if any section fails, the entire car is out of service. Same problem exists with 5 car sets. If any car is out of service, the whole trainset is OOS, but if you have extra cars, they can be swapped with the bad one and the whole 5 car set is usable. If any part of an articulated car is bad ordered, the rest sit, unusable.
Baltimore has 3 of our LRV's (articulated two-unit sets) out of service due to accident damage on the "A" car. Without an A car, the B cars are useless. We're 3 cars short right now.
An A (front car) with a transverse cab, a front truck under the car, and an articulated truck and open "vestibule" with bellows hanging off the back.
A string of B cars with an open front, and only one truck hanging off the back with an open vestibule.
Attaching a B to the back of an A or another B "hangs" the car from the truck of the preceding car.
Since each car has only one truck, they are never more than 30' long.
When two trains are put together back-to-back, the "rearmost" trucks together serve as the central C/R cab.
How did the D-Types do it?
Ode to an Era, Despite Some Errors
Please be sweet when you note the errors in the article....
#3 West End Jeff
And now, I am lamenting the passing of the 'Red Birds'.
#3 West End Jeff
SubTalk fieldtrip?
The R26, 28, 29, 33, 36 were NOT built in 1959 by ACF Berwick, PA.
R26 was built 1957-59, ACF
R28 1960-61, ACF
R29, 1961-62, St. Louis
R33, 1962-63, St. Louis
R36, 1964, St. Louis
In Memoriam
Redbirds
1957-2004
#3 West End Jeff
NJ TRANSIT Advisory
One track remains out of service on the Northeast Corridor. Expect delays of 30 to 60 minutes during the morning peak period. Cross honoring is in effect on July 30 on NJT buses & private carriers.
Rail Delay: Due to signal problems, Main and Bergen County Line trains are experience 15-20 minutes delays.
Amtrack delays on New Haven Line
DELAYS AMTRACK BETWEEN NEW JERSEY AND NEW HAVEN. ONLY AFFECTING NORTHBOUND SERVICE DUE TO POWER OUTAGES THE TRAINS FROM HARTFORD TO NEW YORK ARE NOT AFFECTED. THIS DOES NOT AFFECT METRO NORTH
Delays cleared on Port Washington Branch due to earlier Police Activty near Shea Stadium
The delays on the Port Washington Branch near Shea Stadium due to Police Activity have cleared.
From this statement it would appear that the problem is South of Penn Station and/or possibly b/w Penn & New Rochelle.
"ONLY AFFECTING NORTHBOUND SERVICE"
From this statement it would show that the problem is going Northbound, which would mean that the condition is clear before Amtrak joins Metro North at New Rochelle.
It stars John Ventimiglia and Michael Imperioli. If these names don't ring a bell, they are in the Sopranos. John owns the restaurant and Michael plays Christopher.
Anyway, about half way through, they board what looks like an R-33 or R-36 maybe? I figure it was one of the cars in the Subway museum. It could be the World's Fair Car they have. The interior of the cars is a Robin's Egg blue.
The funny part of it was - they made an R62 sound effect to show when the doors were closing! The car does the chime. Then they do the B movie effect of flashing lights from outside the train to show that the train is moving. John and Chris sit right in front of the roll signs - the train is made up to be a # 2.
I just thought it was very amusing and wanted to share that little observation.
2) There was an IND-second-system line that was planned to begin on the lower level tracks at Church and continue down Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. --Just like the upper lever at 179 was intended to extend farther out Hillside Ave.
3) The current NB F is straight rail, and the current SB F takes only one broad turnout entering Ditmars. If you swapped the Local/Express at Church, then the SB would be straight rail, but the NB would have to take a crossover - net gain zero.
:-) Andrew
The R-10s got an "EOH," not quite a full "GOH." At one time car inspections and overhauls were done by a letter system. E through G were various levels of overhaul -- I don't believe any cars got an "F" overhaul.
David
David
David
Slick, isn't it? Too bad they had to be scrapped just because they would be too heavy with A/C installed. I would take oscillating fans anyday! GP38 Chris helped me understand how grand a rolling stock these were.
That's got to be an old photo, from before they became MTA silver and blue, (and then grafittied). When they were retired they had "David Gunn" red, like the current redbirds with black trim. By the way, that looks like it's Marcy Avenue, still with a wooden platform. It's a great shot.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Check out this 1964 pic at Marcy Ave, scribbling on the bulkhead notwithstanding:
Jimmy
David
Brighton- Express to 57th Street via Broadway
Local to Grand Concourse or Washington Heights via sixth Ave. Express on sixth Ave. and local in Brooklyn.
Culver-F express to Kings Highway and V local to Kings Highway. F to Coney Island.
Sea Beach-Bridge and Broadway Express
West End-sixth Ave local/Rush hour express to either Wash Heights or Grand Concourse (opposite of Brighton/sixth Ave. line).
4th Ave.-Brooklyn and Broadway local-Tunnel
Your 6 Av ideas needs a lots of switching, causing a high chance for
delays, cos you run a bridge line on the 6 Av Local and then to CPW.
Look at the track maps
Since the F runs south of Church Ave, it will be the Culver express if/when this service is instituted. Just like the A is a part-time Fulton St express.
O-Text MTA:
Linking the weekday-only express train on the Brighton Line (currently the Q diamond train) with the weekday-only local train to 6th Avenue along Central Park West (the current B train) would simplify train routings. In the 1990s, B service was quite complex, with the B train from Brooklyn traveling on two different lines in Manhattan north of Rockefeller Center at different times of day. Under the proposed service plan, the West End Line would have D train service via the Manhattan Bridge to 6th Avenue and Central Park West 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The B train, meanwhile, would operate Monday through Friday, as it does now, and whenever it runs, it would connect the Brighton Line with Central Park West via the Manhattan Bridge and 6th Avenue. No longer would customers be confused by B trains operating on two different lines in Manhattan at different times of day.
So i'm guessing that (V) will be the Express on Culver if there
ever will be a Culver Express in the near future.
How long runs the (F) local only on culver? 10-15 years?
Would you rather the local stops between Jay and Church deal with trains being swapped or the stops between Church and CI?
How do you know that will happen? Chances are the dominant line, being the F would be the Culver express while the V and G would be locals.
Hold it right there Peppertree, where did get info. Who said V will run via Brooklyn.
It will be open from 6:00am - 11:15pm every day. During the overnight periods, only the center platform wil be open.
It is my further understanding that the extent of the repairs was: a staircase was widened and some work was done on the elevator. Two years seems consistent for PATH elevator repair (especially @ Pavonia).
Thanks for the description. I wish I could have seen it for myself. A great resource for PATH history can be found at:
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubes/gatewaytubepage.html
One need not wait til Aug. 10 to see the side platform as the walls are down and there only a few unused tools laying around.
I wish we could photograph it..... :(
You're saying there was another way up and out of the station besides the current dual passageways that lead to the escalator bank?
The flyer says that the side platform will handle eastbound service and the island platform will handle the westbound service. That's what they want people boarding to do. I don't know if they will open both sides on eastbound trains.
No way. During rush hours the conductor can't possibly be walking back and forth between cars doing both sides of the train.
As it is, the subway isn’t terribly inflexible. Perhaps you want to build that time machine to go back and change history to preven the IRT from building its system to its (almost) unique specifications…? Back then, the IRT company was looking to make its system unique in order to discourage hostile takeover. That’s the same thing that drove the NY Central to use its unique type of third-rail, for example…
Then why did they end up making their system to the exact same specs as the existing els?
12 Trainsets total.
15 R-33 Singles
9308*
9309*
9310
9311 (Returned, 7/26/03)
9312
9313
9314
9316*
9317*
9319
9322*
9324*
9325* (Returned, 7/24/03)
9326*
9327
*=GOH-II specs.
126 GE WF R-36 Pairs
9560/9561
9564/9565
9568/9569
9572/9573
9574/9575
9576/9577
9578/9579
9582/9583
9584/9585
9586/9587
9588/9589
9590/9591
9592/9593
9594/9595
9596/9597
9598/9599
9602/9603
9608/9609
9610/9611
9612/9613
9614/9615
9616/9617
9618/9619
9620/9621
9624/9625
9634/9635 (Returned, 6/10/03)
9646/9647
9648/9649
9650/9651
9652/9653
9654/9655
9662/9663
9666/9667
9668/9669
9670/9671
9672/9673
9674/9675
9676/9677
9678/9679
9682/9683
9684/9685
9686/9687
9688/9689
9694/9695
9696/9697
9706/9707
9708/9709
9710/9711
9712/9713
9714/9715
9716/9717
9718/9719
9720/9721
9732/9733
9734/9735
9738/9739
9742/9743
9746/9747
9748/9749
9752/9753
9754/9755
9762/9763
9764/9765
141 total.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
They're R-33 mainlines.
He didn't say he thought they *should* be scrapped, he said he thought they *might* be. He wasn't contradicting himself, he was contrasting his opinion with a likely outcome.
I guess you're not one of the modest ones :)
Speaking of which, LED's are fine for the side signs, but I still prefer the good old colored rollsigns for the bullets on the front. But if not, I wouldn't mind seeing the red LED on the Millenium cars replaced with multi color LED's so the true line color would be displayed.
Up until you mentioned the colors in this post, I didn't really pay much attention to whether the LED bullets matched the color of the line. In fact, I was up in NYC yesterday, and what did catch my attention was another R142 normally assignned to the 2 train running on the 5.
I happened to make a movie with my digital camera of the wrong station being posted on the LED display;-)
Anyway, I thought NYers hated when tourists called the subway lines by the color and not the letter, so why should the color make a differnece?
Wouldn't www.madisonsquaregarden.com have been a good place to look?
Until the '60s you had to go uptown. I liked it better that way.
1) It is not on Madison.
2) It is not Square: It is ROUND
3) There is no garden there either.
: ) Elias
At *one* of its former locations! LOL
UPSTAIRS!
I am referring to the LED boards that line the perimeter of the arena and the 4 LED boards that hang from the central scoreboard. Now if those kinds of LED's were the only kind of LED displays installed on the R160's, then that would be sweet;-)
and the next one read:
R WHITEHALL ST
R SOUTH FERRY
R BROADWAY LCL
R via 60 ST
this was a northbound train at Rector -> Canal, BTW.
These electronic signs are even worse than rollsigns. Rollsigns can be wrong, but at least they can be fixed (they simply don't out of laziness or lack of time). Digital LED's, when broken, cannot be fixed. And due to rollingstock shortages in the B div, the following train (for example) could not be taken OOS and replaced with a working set:
A to207 ST MANHTN
A 8 AV EXPRESS
A to DYCKMAN ST
A 8 AV EXPRESS
A toLEFFERTS BLVD
A 8 AV/FULTON EXP
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY
A 8 AV/FULTON EXP
[DARK SIGN]
[BLANK SIGN]
G TO SMITH-9 ST
G CROSSTOWN LCL
And I don't remember what the other one said. But how the hell are passengers getting on this A train (especially at Hoyt) supposed to know where it's going or how it's getting there? I think one of those signs even said "FULTON ST LCL"!
The Whitehall St destination on the R32s is:
Whitehall St
South Ferry
Which I guess is the same on the R46 reprogrammed signs.
As for the 7 Av one, I have no idea what went wrong with that sign. The sign is supposed to read as:
FOREST HILLS
71 AV
Also sometimes the lighting on the sign itself would fail but it would still display text. Other times, the sign fails but is still lit.
Do any photos exist of the Nassau Loop side of the Manhattan Bridge pre-Chrystie? If so then perhaps one contains a view of a signal and you'd be able to see the chain letter for those tracks. Not that they'd have anything to do with what they become upon entering Chambers...
The A3-A4 tracks were continuous from the Brighton Line, over the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and up Broadway.
The H1-H2 tracks ran from Gold Street Interlocking (as now) over the south side of the bridge to Chambers Street.
See? Wasn't that EASY? :)
The governor of California's ass is out the door very soon, the recall election IS a reality.
Where this jerk Gray Davis came from, I don't know, but sure as heck hope he goes back and STAYS!!!!
Hopefully, the man *I* would vote for decides to go for it this time....
They couldn't stand him in San Diego.....
Larry Flynt is running ...
Jimmy
That morning I had the radio on, and heard the traffic and transit dude report that all inbound trains from Port Jervis were running 30 minutes late into Hoboken. Busted signals. I just stopped commuting daily on that line; I smirked to myself -- no more of that for me, thankyouverymuch.
The inbound train that crashed around 10am wasn't one of the delayed trains, I figured that happened just after the last delayed train pulled in. They were saying early on that one of the trains blew a red signal. From my commuting days I knew that NJT's timetables were always pretty tight. Being more than 3 minutes late into Hoboken was a rarity. And that's after a two hour trip, and a dozen stops at low-platform stations, with everyone having to slowly climb up the trap doors. If were as little as five minutes off the schedule, we always had to change tracks, somewhere, in order to avoid other trains.
As soon as I heard about the Secaucus crash, I immediately remembered the traffic report. I was pretty sure that the signal delays messed up the scheduling in the morning, and someone wasn't paying attention, and missed a stop where he'd normally always have a clear.
See? Wasn't that EASY? :)
The governor of California's ass is out the door very soon, the recall election IS a reality.
Where this jerk Gray Davis came from, I don't know, but sure as heck hope he goes back and STAYS!!!!
Hopefully, the man *I* would vote for decides to go for it this time....
They couldn't stand him in San Diego.....
Larry Flynt is running ...
PING- Change here for the W
6 line( my home line)
Jimmy
My Favorite:
Grand Central (4, 5)
This is Grand Central - 42nd Street
Transfer is available to the 6, 7, and shuttle to Times Square. Connection is available to Metro North.
This is Grand Central-42 St-
Transfer is available to the 4,5, and 7 trains. Transfer is available for the Shuttle to Times Square. Connection is available to Metro North.
Jimmy
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 Express train. The next stop is (listen for the echo) Middletown Road.
Other ramblings:
I've figured out who does " The next. (and last.) Stop is." announcement- The 4 train voice
"This is" (example- Morris park)- Jessica Ettinger ( the 6 train voice) on all announcements on the 4/5/6
Does anyone know who does the ( updated,updated,updated) 5 train announcements?
6 - "This is One Hundred Twenty Fifth Street. Transfer Available to the 4 and 5 trains. Connection available to the Metro North Railroad. Transfer available to the M60 bus to LaGuardia Airport"
(may not be exact):
This Is 14th, Union Square. Transfer Available to the 4,5,N,Q,R,W and L trains"
This is sort of off topic but one of my favorite bus announcements is on the N25.
"Franklin Avenue and Hempstead Avenue, Transfer N31 N32"
N6 Limited - "Elmont Road, If the bus has standing room only, please move toward the rear to allow others to board. N6 Limited. Transfer N1"
N6 Limited - "N6, Destination, Hempstead Limited. Limited stops only."
N1 - "West Merrick Road. Please, No Eating, Drinking, or Smoking on the bus. Long Island Bus thanks you for your cooperation. Transfer N4"
N4 - "Ballard Avenue, Burger King!"
Any bus arriving at Hempstead Bus Terminal -
"Hempstead Bus Terminal, Please remember to take all your personal belongings and trash with you when you leave. Thank you for riding Long Island Bus. Major Transfer point"
N6/N22/N24(N1,N2,N3) - "One Hundred Seventy-Ninth Street, Subway"
N6 - "Meacham Ave, Transfer N2"
N4 - Going East:"Atlantic Avenue, 5 Corners. For your safety, Please use Handrails when entering and exiting the bus. Transfer N25"
Going West:"Hempstead Ave 5 Corners. For your safety, Handrails are located in the stairs, aisles, and overhead. Transfer N25"
THis is 14th street, union square. Transfer is avaiiable to the 4, 5, L, N and R trains.
"This is the Long Island Bus. On your right is 34 St Av Dr. Transfer is available to the street, White Castle, and your grocer's freezer. Connection is also available to the windshield of that car. Thank you for riding the bus."
No, that's in Queens.
That must be a new recording. I havent heard that one yet ;)
TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE TO THE 4,5, AND 7 TRAINS. TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE TO THE SHUTTLE TO TIMES SQUARE. CONNECTION IS AVAILABLE TO METRO NORTH. ITS SOOO NICE TO HEAR THE RAILROAD I WORK FOR!!!
ALSO, I LOVE THE LAST STOP ONE
MALE: THIS IS THE LAST STOP ON THIS TRAIN, EVERYONE PLEASE LEAVE THE TRAIN. THANK YOU FOR RIDING WITH MTA NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT.
They're just rehearsing.
I'm not sure it will be accurate to use the word "connection" even after the rebuilt PATH station reopens. It will be necessary to go up to street level and walk a bit, which to me isn't really a "connection."
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound 3 express train, the next and LAST stop is Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street
This is a Westchester bound 5 express train, the next stop is, Sandford Boulevard-6th Street
This is a Westchester bound 2(or 5 express) train, the next stop is Gramatan Avenue
Transfer is available to the 7 local, connection is available to the Long Island Rail Road.
"Doors Open"
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
The next stop is Junction Boulevard.
Stand clear of the closing doors please!
or perhaps
Silver Line Train to Route 667
Next Stop Dulles Int'l Airport
Doors open on the right
Mark
This is a Jamaica Center bound E train, the next stop is Sutphin Blvd. Stand Clear of the closing doors please.
This is Sutphin Blvd, Transfer is available to the E train. Connection is available to the Long Island Railroad.
This is Union Turnpike Kew Gardens, Transfer is available to the E train. Transfer is available to the Q10 Bus to Kennedy Airport.
This is Broadway Junction. Transfer is available to the C, J, Z and L trains
This is a Manhattan bound E train. The next stop is Queens Plaza. Stand clear of the closing doors please
This is 169th street. The next and last stop is 179th street.
This is a Francis Lewis Blvd bound F train. The next stop is 188th Street. Stand clear of the closing doors please.
(with that configuration,. The V will be local to 179th street. While the F is express up to 179th st )
This is a Queens-bound 27 express train. The next stop is, Co-op City.
This is East 180th Street. Transfer is available to the 2, 5, and 15 trains. The next stop is: Pelham Parkway.
This is a Kings Plaza - Avenue U bound U train. The next stop is: Prospect Park.
This is Prospect Park, transfer available to the B, D, and U trains. Transfer available to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. This is a Jamaica Center - Parsons Boulevard bound Q train. The next stop is: Atlantic Avenue.
This is a Middle Village - Metropolitan Avenue bound P train. The next stop is: Smith-9th Street.
This is a Norwood 205th Street bound Y train. The next stop is: 3rd Avenue-125th Street.
This is a downtown 11 local train. The next stop is: Javits Center - 35th Street.
This is a Coney Island-bound Z express train. The next stop is: Saint George Ferry Terminal.
This is Euclid Avenue. Transfer available to the C, E, and W trains. This is a JFK Airport bound A express train. The next stop is: Federal Circle. Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
This is: LaGuardia Airport West. Transfer available to the U train. This is a Manhattan-bound V express train. The next stop is: 21 St-Queensbridge.
This is Times Square. Transfer is available to the A, C, E, K, N, Q, R, T, W, 1, 2, 3, 9, 10, 12, and 17 trains. Connection available to Port Authority Bus Terminal. This is a downtown 7 express train. The next stop is: 9th Avenue. Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
This is a Queens-bound 7 Express.
They still haven't go it right.
"This is Grand Central, connections available to the 4, 5 and 7 trains, the shuttle to Times Square, to Metro-North Railroad...and to the Long Island Rail Road."
Least favorite-
"Attention passengers! This train is going out of service. Everybody off, please. This is a NO PASSENGER train! A NO PASSENGER TRAIN!!"
You can see the photos in my temporary album linked below:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289533699
Here's a sample:
Kosciuszko St
Forest Parkway
Hewes Street
Central Avenue
Halsey Street
Just kidding, I was looking for something "different". At Central Avenue, the ends of the platform get really narrow, and there is a legal space to stand between the stairway and the narrow end of the platform, where you can see the backside of the railing. Knickerbocker has this also. Unfortunately, on one side of Central they built one of thse "storage" buildings on the el, such as are popping up all over the place ruining vistas.
So it's a nice place to take a photo, although you can't stand there for more than a second as the platform reeked of urine. Central is a far cry in condition compared to the Broadway El stations. It was also severely, freshly tagged. I see grafitti at Central more than any other station lately. They clean it up, and it comes right back.
Also, the stairway up to the platform is a "temporary" stairway built over the original one, as the original one is all rotted.
Thanks.
I rode the R-142 on the 3 a few weeks ago.
The details of my trip can be found here.
It was run during the 4 GO, where it was not going to Brooklyn.
Don't we ALL leave work during RUSH hour????
Some people work other shifts.
I came across this article early today, but was reluctant to post it because I was sorry that I had posted the last one.
It's an unusual story and kind of sad, but it won't be long before it's turned into a joke here.
Woman Gives Birth to Child on Boston Subway
If this had happened in New York, there'd be no extra fare because the ankle biter would've been under 44 inches ...
They have to have that wine, do they? Anyone who's been following the news knows where that comes from. :)
Well let's see. Immediately before birth, the ankle biter's head was probably close to the bottom of the woman's torso. We'll say it was at a level equal to one-half her height. Now, the average adult woman is about 65 inches tall, or so I've read, which would put the head at about the 32-33 inch mark. Well under the 44 inches that NYC sets as the free-travel cutoff. The T presumably has a similar policy.
David
-Robert King
NYC subways see about 80 babies a year, accotding to some reports. That's more than some hospitals!
til next time
til next time
It was reported that the C-1's (10 protoype cars) and some P-72 coaches held by the NY & A were sold to Ken Bitten's Mid American Railcar Co. located off the PRR mainline between Harrisburg and Philadelphia.
Another poster says Ken has already has them (C-1's) up for sale at $500,000 a pop. I'm only reporting what was discussed at Railroad.net, so I am as much in the dark as the next guy.
Does Mid American Railcar Co have a website ?
Anyone know if the C-1's have left Richmond Hill or are they still there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
People travelling long distances on lines like the 2,4,and D(2004) from Brooklyn to the Bronx have to wait up to 20 minutes to get their prospective train. The MTA says that local service "increases" service, but for many people who still have to wait 20 minutes for a train, it would actually make their commute worse.
Should these people also be forced to take longer train rides increasing their chances of missing their 50-60 minute NITE buses, which would leave then stranded on the streets. Which lines should be local, or express at nights?
Give your thoughts on all three lines at nights
2: Local or Express
4: Local or Express
D: Local or Express(2004 CI-205, including 6th Avenue AND 8th Avenue[CPW] portions)
There's no reason to ever make anyone transfer at 20-minute headways off of a train that will go past his destination or onto a train that went past his origin.
Running 3 tph local and 3 tph express increases the average passenger's travel time (including wait) and decreases the average passenger's safety.
Safety, well for people in Manhattan, but for those in The Bronx and Brooklyn, they still have to stand on the platform, or get off the train at another place and STILL wait for their train(like 4 to the 6, etc). The only reason the 4 went local in the first place was because the TA made the 6 into a shuttle, and many people thought that the 4 would have went express again after the 6 was restored. Then there is the matter of safety out on the streets once the people in Brooklyn and The Bronx go to their late night buses, but that is another story.
The (5) at night requires numerous transfers with the 4 to the 2 and then the 5, a one seat ride becomes a three seat ride.
What happens if there is a delay on the tracks, then both lines can be screwed, or a sick passenger(unless the next train can easily switch over)
Of course. That's the standard late night headway on each route. But where two routes overlap, it costs next to nothing to double service at the stations along the way. So why not do it?
Safety, well for people in Manhattan, but for those in The Bronx and Brooklyn, they still have to stand on the platform, or get off the train at another place and STILL wait for their train(like 4 to the 6, etc).
Also for people traveling between Manhattan local stations and the Bronx. Bombardier gave the example of someone going from 66th to the Bronx 2.
The only reason the 4 went local in the first place was because the TA made the 6 into a shuttle, and many people thought that the 4 would have went express again after the 6 was restored.
Many people? I doubt many people even consider these issues.
Through 6 service was restored specifically to improve Manhattan service.
Then there is the matter of safety out on the streets once the people in Brooklyn and The Bronx go to their late night buses, but that is another story.
Yes, and it's irrelevant here.
The (5) at night requires numerous transfers with the 4 to the 2 and then the 5, a one seat ride becomes a three seat ride.
Yes, because the 5 terminates at E180. Extending it into Manhattan would cost a lot of money.
The 2 has to run between Chambers and 96 anyway. Sending it up the local is a very low-cost way to improve service for many people.
Getting from any West Side IRT station to the Bronx 5 at night requires one transfer. When the 2 ran express, it required two transfers.
What happens if there is a delay on the tracks, then both lines can be screwed, or a sick passenger(unless the next train can easily switch over)
We're talking 10-minute headways. The next train can divert to the express past the blockage.
too bad they couldn't send the 5 to 149th Street(transfer to 2 or 4) at nights(and terminate it there)
As many trains per hour as is required between the HUB and 161st Street and the Bronx and Atlantic Avenue or Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn, up to 137th on the #1, and Flushing Line to Queensborough.
Special night buses leaving from those central points in all directions every 15 minutes at most.
At the night bus transfer hubs, there would be big crowds and plenty of safety. Inbound, people would have to wait for buses on the street, but would not have to wait in isolated, empty stations.
too bad they couldn't send the 5 to 149th Street(transfer to 2 or 4) at nights(and terminate it there)
Flushing7
To be fair to the voters, I'll argue this point.
Hypothetical:
You are at 66th street on the Broadway line at 3 AM, and a 2 train blows past on the express track. You are heading to the Bronx.
You wait 20 minutes for the 1, then go to 72nd and 96th to catch the 2. You have to wait another 20 minutes because you missed the one that passed you at 66th.
I think local service gives fairer service to all people at all stations.
Sorry, they shouldnt. Atleast not the F on the Queens Blvd line. I like the fact that its express 24 hours. That whole trip local is HORRIBLE.
But the local run only takes 8 minutes longer than the express. That's hardly the end of the world at night, when service overall is reduced. Bring a book -- you have a seat.
I agree.
If the G must continue past Court Square, let it be the express.
Now the G as express, hmmm...I gotta think about that one...
(The same applies all day on weekends, but headways are shorter, so transfers are less of a concern.)
A Train: Late nite service become express from 145th ST Manhattan to Far Rockaway. And D become local with Stops in CPW station only and normal between 59 and Brooklyn. D is short distance than A with 24 stops while A have 58 stops in late nite period
R Train. Extended to 57th Street Manhattan late nite LOCAL and allow N run via Manny B all time 24/7, but local in manhattan late nite. (That train needs to be taken out that Montague Ratholes. N riders like myself is already seen enough of bacterial infested pest like rodent and creepy crawling creature hanging up and down for 18 straight freaken year. YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK)
E Train; Late nite service extend to Leffert Blvd local in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn and Queens
Rockaway Park Shuttles Late Nite Service: H replaces S and Extended to Euclid Ave
J train: No change expect with increase late nite service trains OR
M train: Late nite service to Chamber or Broad...Sick and tired of 20-30 min long wait for J. Enough with this Nassau Line Late Nite Service Nonsence.
Q Train: unchanged
2 Train: Express Again for late. No need for two late nite local service on the 7th Ave route
3 4 5 6 Trains Late Service is satisfy, So No change
1 Trains; No change
L Trains: No Change
G Trains: Same as now July 31, 2003
F trains: No change
7 Trains; I would more happy if TA decide to change that diamond 7 Express into 11
V: Extended to Brooklyn would be nice
1) With A express and E local, a direct link between all stops north of 59th/CC and 50th St/8th Ave is eliminated, something that should be kept with trains at 20 minute headways.
2) Is it true that the M from Metropolitan isn't scheduled to meet up with the J at Myrtle? If not then that's what should be changed instead of extending the M.
3) There may be no need for 2 locals on the 7th Ave line at night if your sole concern is crowded trains, but it does not take much to make the 2 train a local on 7th and the 4 train a local on Lex in the same way. The cost for this is too small to reject and make worse the commutes for local passengers. I think the D should run local as well as the A. No need for a CPW express AT ALL at night when I see in my experience that it saves under 5 minutes.
4) N/R: Same precedent as #3; is it worth cutting in half the service through Montague just to save N riders 7 or 8 minutes in their commute?
Local.
4: Local or Express
Local.
D: Local or Express(2004 CI-205, including 6th Avenue AND 8th Avenue[CPW] portions)
Local on CPW, Express on 6th Av, Local in Brooklyn.
Nighttime locals:
2, No Change
4, No Change (both Manhattan and Brooklyn)
Q, should be local from 57/7 to Prince St, then switch over to Canal/Bridge platform and onto Brooklyn. 2 services are needed above Canal St, especially on Friday and Saturday nights, only one line will do for lower Manhattan.
The F should be local in Queens, it's a difficult transfer from 6th Ave stations to local stations west of Roosevelt Ave, currently you have to take the F (or 7 line at Fifth Ave station) to Roosevelt Ave/JH then go upstairs and cross-over to the E or G line back. Also the G can be cut back to Court Square late nights.
The D line should be local in upper Manhattan also from 12 Mid-5 AM, 59th st tower defeats the purpose of the D express for no reason by making it wait as long as 10 minutes for the A local across the platform.
The N and R in Brooklyn has to remain express because there is no direct switching south of Pacific St station.
Second, the buses [14, 20, 58, 66, 84] load up on Torresdale Ave in front of North Catholic High School, except the 19 and 67, they load up on Kensington Ave in front of the eastbound exit. The R, 8, 24, 73, 3 and 5 continue to use Bridge St, passengers have to take a shuttle bus to M-O station, however they can connect with the other buses at Frankford and Bridge.
I took the 66. I got on a Neoplan DK [the buses that won't die!] 3092 and rode it to Levick St. At Frankford and Bridge, I saw the destruction of the old EL, with the southern part near Pratt St in pieces. It was a sight to see, especially the sunlight beginning to show on that part of Frankford Ave. I got off at Levick, got a snack at 7-11, then jumped back on the southbound 66 [3175, what Neo model is that?] to E-T station. Passed by the "destruction zone" and marveled at the speed and precision of the work to tear down and build the new structure. On this occasion, SEPTA is doing quite the rarity, something right!
Now here's the surprise: I got on the El at E-T station, and as the train was pulling in the station [crossing over from the eastbound to the westbound track] I looked over on Erie Ave and lo and behold, THERE WAS A POLICE CHASE! Saw six cruisers chasing a white pickup truck on Torresdale Ave, with sirens blaring! The white pickup gained speed as he went up Torresdale Ave, beyond the temporary terminal, and the cops did as well. I pray that this did not end in an accident, particularly with all of the heavy bus traffic on Torresdale Ave.
Now my plans to observe the "Swing" on Friday has changed. I just learned that my nephew has come home from the Iraq war in one piece, and I have to see him. I was VERY worried for his safety while he was over there, and I prayed for him every day. This event has given me my greatest 45th birthday present ever, the gift of a loved one home safe and sound from Bush's silly little escapade in the desert.
Great news about your nephew returning whole from Iraq.
And thanks for the Frankford Swing update.
Bob
This chase had an interesting twist at the end: The suspect apparently tried to drive his truck into the Delaware River and escape by swimming. He didn't get far, and was soon arrested. His offense was apparently drug-related.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/nyp.gif
An C interlocking diagram at:
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/cnyc.gif
A KN interlocking diagram at:
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/kn.gif
An F interlocking diagram at:
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/f_1947.gif
An R interlocking diagram at:
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/r_1945.gif
And I have posted four diagrams of Sunnyside Yard and Penn Station on my website at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/Diagrams/
Search around the site and you'll find the track diagram of NYP
July 30, 2003
Traffic moved yesterday on Northern Boulevard in Roslyn. It moved in a steady flow. It moved as cars and trucks do on the open road.
It moved as it might for the last time in the month to come. Because the electronic sign board, the one on the eastbound side of the road near Center Drive not far from the Roslyn Viaduct, warned of long days ahead. "Road Work," the sign read as it flashed its ominous message to drivers. "Beginning 7-30-03."
This morning, according to plans, the New York State Department of Transportation begins a resurfacing project on Northern Boulevard, Route 25A, between Center Drive in Flower Hill and Forest Drive in East Hills - two communities that border Roslyn.
It covers a 1 1/2-mile stretch from a block west of Mineola Avenue to near Town Path Road. It borders the viaduct, though the Department of Transportation will do no work on the viaduct. It includes daytime lane closings. It will last until early September.
All of which figures to create a traffic snarl on the thoroughfare, the main east-west artery for the northernmost communities on the North Shore of Nassau County. All of which figures to create a morning and evening rush-hour headache for commuters.
A headache because the next closest east- west roads - Hillside Avenue, Jericho Turnpike, Northern State Parkway and the Long Island Expressway, where the high occupancy vehicle lane construction project has caused disruption - are several miles to the south and are accessible via north-south roads that are themselves overburdened: Glen Cove Road to the east and Searingtown Road and Mineola Avenue to the west, which sandwich Roslyn Road.
What this means for drivers is this: Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.
"They're almost taking the road out of commission," AAA Auto Club of New York traffic engineer Mark Kulewicz said. Or, as AAA spokesman Robert Sinclair said: "We are looking at serious problems."
Certainly, the scenario is not the most favorable one for drivers in northern Nassau. Especially because Northern Boulevard is used daily by about 35,000 vehicles, according to the Department of Transportation.
Where some of those vehicles will go when the Department of Transportation closes lanes is anyone's guess. Northern Boulevard is two lanes in each direction in the area - and construction will force the closure of one eastbound lane between 7 a.m. and 4 p.m. and one westbound between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
Roslyn Village officials hope those drivers do not attempt to use north-south roads in the village to bypass the construction. Main Street and Broadway already have all the traffic they can handle.
"It would concern the village if we thought people would be coming down through the village," George Soos, a village administrator, said. He added: "We think those people would be better off staying in their traffic lanes for the short distance ... We hope they're intelligent enough drivers to do that."
The resurfacing is one of 11 Islandwide being undertaken by the Department of Transportation as part of a $6.9-million "priority resurfacing project." Meaning the road is in dire need of emergency repairs. The department decided on the project this last winter, after the harsh weather left the road in a deteriorated condition, according to department spokeswoman Lisa Kuhner. "It was determined the road needed to be repaired before next winter," Kuhner said.
The road surface will be milled - meaning the top layer of asphalt will be removed - and then repairs will be made, as necessary, to the base and sub-base before the road is resurfaced. The department plans an $80-million reconstruction project on the Roslyn Viaduct in 2004-2005, Kuhner said.
The roadwork on Northern Boulevard is being done in daytime because it is a residential area, Department of Transportation officials said.
"We try not to have nighttime construction when it could affect residents," Kuhner said.
Of course, because of that, the project now threatens to affect tens of thousands of drivers. Not to mention the communities in the area: Greenvale, East Hills, Roslyn Heights, Roslyn Estates, Flower Hill, Albertson, Williston Park, East Williston.
Not to mention the northernmost communities, places like Glen Cove, Glen Head, Glenwood Landing, Sea Cliff and maybe even Port Washington.
That, because one traffic snarl could cause additional traffic snarls. A domino effect.
Fortunately, the construction is scheduled to last about one month. It needs to be completed before the start of the 2003-2004 school year, Department of Transportation officials said. That is good news, yes. So is the fact that the road needs to be fixed - and now it will be. Still, the next month figures to be a tough one for drivers in northern Nassau. "But, this is happening all over Long Island," Soos said. "We're not alone."
Wish I could just take the OB line, but I'm in PW, and my Orthodontist is rite where its all happenin. Like I really need this now. Sheesh!
Wish I could just take the OB line, but I'm in PW, and my Orthodontist is rite where its all happenin. Like I really need this now. Sheesh!
For those who don't have AIM, visit www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
We will be taking the 2:35 train out of Hoboken and we will meet there. Piggo will also be coming.
Unless you WANTED this to be a three-buff rendezvous...
Meet at the train. Um, which train? Front, middle, or back?
We will be taking the 2:35 train out of Hoboken and we will meet there. Piggo will also be coming.
I don't know if this will help
At Hoboken, I doubt there are ever two trains scheduled to leave at the same time. So look up at the departure board and look for the only 2:35pm train. I believe they list the trains' "line", so it might say Pascack Valley on the board.
Sheesh, do I gotta do everything? Train #1601
And I remember the post about the itinerary but I can't find it. They said about crossing over the Hudson and coming back down via MNR that way.
You'll have to excuse Mr. Greenberger in this case. If it doesn't involve the IRT, BMT, or IND, I assume Mr. Greenberger is like a "fish out of water". Besides the fact, I don't think he would even be able to make this particular trip, since it's starting relatively late on a Friday. Since there is only outbound service on the Pascack Valley Line in the afternoons/evenings, the only "fast" way back would be to forgo the Westchester segment of the trip and grab a Red and Tan (Coach USA?) Line bus to the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
IAWTP... but look who planned it. Pigs. No surprise there.
No matter what I do I will always get blamed on this board for things that other people do.
Next I'll be hearing that I caused the decommissioning of the Redbirds.
Promote it more next time, please. I don't know enough to organize anything outside NYC.
Everybody here is on a different schedule. What works for some doesn't work for others.
Koi
How times have changed...
:-) Andrew
Later, a cheaper plan was hatched -- the Nostrand Avenue line would make a turn at the Junction and go down Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza, thus one line would be built instead of two.
In any event, a line from the bottom of the Nostrand Avenue line would have to deal with the depressed LIRR ROW and the Buckeye pileline. It would have to get up in the air before it got the LIRR, taking property, and then run elevated reducing the traffic capacity of Flatbush Avenue, one of the most congested roads in Brooklyn. So a newer plan just extended the Nostrand Avenue line into part of the LIRR ROW for a better turnaround right there.
Perhaps a line on Utica would be best. But it would be so far down the list of priorities that it isn't worth thinking about.
I can't imagine what the planners were thinking when they connected all sorts of lines to the local but left the express hanging at Utica.
Between that and Nostrand Junction, I'd have to say that the line was botched. The #4 only bypasses two stations east of Franklin -- there should only have been two tracks, with all trains local. And all the trains to New Lots should have been express, all the trains to Flatbush should have been local. Along with dwell time at Grand Central, etc., this line is one of the big constraints on the capacity of the IRT.
And when the 5 PM rush extras dead heat from East 180/Unionport, they have to run down to Bowling Green for the run up to East 238th st. Souldn't a Brooklyn yard make more sense to run these trains closer to BG? Expansion of Livonia Yard is not possible, unless I am wrong.
And why can they not just dig the tunnel deeper? Besides, isn't the LIRR ROW elevated in that area? I know it is over Utica, but I'm not sure about Flatbush.
Perhaps a line on Utica would be best. But it would be so far down the list of priorities that it isn't worth thinking about.
Well, actually it seems to be 6th on the list.
1. Second Avenue Subway
2. Flushing to Javits Center
3. East Side Access
4. Subway to LaGuardia
5. Nostrand Av Subway extension to LIRR ROW - They really should look into going all the way to Kings Plaza. Why spend all that money on a turnaround. Even if they fix the turnaround, Rogers Junction and the location of Livonia Yard will still always prevent any real improvement in service on the Nostrand subway. So I say if they're gonna throw money and time and do an EIS for something like this (which would accomplish nothing in its proposed form), they should at least consider the option of extending to Kings Plaza Mall, which would make it more useful. Those buses are all madhouses in both directions, so the ridership base is definitely there. Have you ever seen a weekend crowd storm a bunch of B46 Limiteds at Eastern Parkway? They're all coming from the subway.
Looking outside of transportation, Mayor Bloomberg has made education his number one priority, but a decade from now the health and pension costs of the elderly, and interests on the public debts, will crush everything.
When all that is taken care of, you might see an IRT expansion into Southeast Brooklyn.
It wasn't the first time or last time that this happened. I really wonder if the LIRR didn't get involved with these issues as a way of sabotaging expansion of the subways into what they considered to be their territory.
Well I wish that could happen b/c the B46 man, ride it via Utica and you'll see what I mean, especially when people board at Eastern Parkway. It's just like how the 2 Av subway would help the M15 and the Lexington Av line to reduce crowding.
Anyhoo, this is SO off topic, I'll just quit while I'm ahead, kick back and finish my Foster's and call it a night while singing the upstate patriotic tune, "Oh Canada" ...
After the North American Beer Festival, all the brewery presidents decided
to go out for a beer.
The guy from Corona sits down and says, "Hey Senor, I would like the world's
best beer, a Corona." The bartender dusts off a bottle from the shelf and
gives it to him.
The guy from Budweiser says, "I'd like the best beer in the world, give me
'The King Of Beers', a Budweiser." The bartender gives him one.
The guy from Coors says, "I'd like the only beerr made with Rocky Mountain
spring water, give me a Coors." He gets it.
The guy from Molson sits down and says, "Give me a Coke." The bartender is a
little taken aback, but gives him what he ordered.
The other brewery presidents look over at him and ask, "Why aren't you
drinking a Molson's?"
The Molson president replies, "Well, I figured if you guys aren't drinking
beer, neither would I."
CANADIAN JOKE #2
A Canadian is walking down the street with a case of beer under his arm. His
friend Doug stops him and asks, "Hey Bob!
Whacha get the case of beer for?"
"I got it for my wife, eh." answers Bob.
"Oh!" exclaims Doug, "Good trade."
CANADIAN JOKE #3
An Ontarian wanted to become a Newfie. He went to the neurosurgeon and
asked, "Is there anything you can do to me that would make me into a
Newfie?"
"Sure it's easy." replied the neurosurgeon.
"All I have to do is cut out 1/3 of your brain, and you'll be a Newfie."
He was very pleased, and immediately underwent the operation. However, the
neurosurgeon's knife slipped, and instead of cutting 1/3 of the patient's
brain, the surgeon accidentally cut out 2/3 of the patient's brain.
He was terribly remorseful, and waited impatiently beside the patient's bed
as the patient recovered from the anesthetic. As soon as the patient was
conscious, the neurosurgeon said to him "I'm terribly sorry, but there was a
ghastly accident. Instead of cutting out 1/3 of your brain, I accidentally
cut out 2/3 of your brain."
The patient replied "Qu'est-ce que vous avez dit, monsieur?"
CANADIAN JOKE #4
Did you hear about the war between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia?
The Newfies were lobbing hand grenades; the Nova Scotians were pulling the
pins and throwing them back.
CANADIAN JOKE #5
In Canada, we have two seasons...six months of winter and six months of poor
snowmobiling.
CANADIAN JOKE #6
One day an Englishman, an American, and a Canadian walked into a pub
together. They proceeded to each buy a pint of Labatt Blue. Just as they
were about to enjoy their beverages, three flies landed in each of their
pints.
The Englishman pushed his beer away from him in disgust.
The American fished the offending fly out of his beer and continued drinking
it as if nothing happened.
The Canadian picked the fly out of his drink and started shaking it over the
pint, yelling, "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT"
CANADIAN JOKE #7
A Quebecer, staying in a hotel in Edmonton phoned room service for some
pepper.
"Black pepper, or white pepper?" asked the concierge.
"Toilette pepper!" yelled the Quebecer.
CANADIAN JOKE #8
A Canadian, a Scot and an Indian were in a terrible car accident. They were
all brought to the same emergency room, but all three of them died before
they arrived.
Just as they were about to put the toe tag on the Canadian, he stirred and
opened his eyes. Astonished, the doctors and
nurses present asked him what happened. "Well," said the Canadian, "I
remember the crash, and then there was a beautiful light, and then the
Indian and the Scot and I were standing at the gates of heaven. St.Peter
approached us and said that we were all too young to die, and said that for
a donation of $50, we could return to earth. So of course I pulled out my
wallet and gave him the $50, and the next thing I knew I was back here."
"That's amazing!" said the one of the doctors, "But what happened to the
other two?"
"Last I saw them," replied the Canadian, the Scot was haggling over the
price and the Indian was waiting for the government to pay his."
Memories of no sleep... :(
Peace,
ANDEE
Yet lookie 'WHO' starts most those threads...
Half the time talking to himself, it would seem...
Gregg Jefferies played 3rd.
Don't you hate short responses like that ;-D.
Seriously, that's why I appear to be constantly negative. Why should I post a two word response? Whether or not I endorse something is largely irrelevant.
Nice to know I'm considered an essential part of your SubTALK gospels.
:)
Is listed as "Avenue H"
It actually is a view from the Glenwood Rd overpass looking north to Newkirk Ave.
-Larry
I'd say since Newkirk Ave is at the front end of the picture, maybe the caption should read "N/B train entering Newkirk Ave station", otherwise I'd leave it at Avenue H.
I will have to look at this tonight on my way home.
--Mark
That is just fine with me, but it should read "Abandoned" Glenwood Road pedestrian bridge.
Others:
Walkway on bridge over Belt Parkway south of Sheepshead Bay station.
Walk bridge over railroad tracks on Livonia Ave to observe Canarsie and New Lots.
Grade cross next to E 105th station on Canarsie (all Standards WOW!)
Spot near West End and Culver Shuttle at 9th Ave. (more Standards).
Pedestrian bridge over Franklin Shuttle south of Botanic Garden.
There are others but I can't think of them right now.
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't think it will link up with the L do you? No, no, forget I said that!
Now about the track; what do you mean they don't turn South? I assume the 7 Times Sq station is generally running East-West, I've never been there with a compass but that's the way it seems. When looking off the Western end of the station, into the great dark beyond, the the tracks turn left, which would be South.
R-32.
It'll go a little further than that, and end up at the West Side staduim Multi-Use Facility.
J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets!
What happen to the motorman?
The Port Jervis Line timetable has always, AFAIK, been availble both as a Metro-North timetable and as part of the NJ Transit Main Line/Bergen County line timetable.
:-) Andrew
Thanks for the info!
:-) Andrew