-Stef
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Isn't there an option for yet another fifty, to finish out the 1200 series?
wayne
Hey Juice, are you one of the top guys?
You mean in person, right?
I find it hard to believe that you've never seen them before at all...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
That was an R44 car you mentioned, not an R68.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Easiest way is the car numbers.
R-68 = 2xxx
R-68A = 5xxx
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Installing a new rubber floor in a subway car in one piece would be absurd. The flooring sections are installed piece by piece. The seams where the sections meet are "welded" together. Not by a welding torch, but by a special iron where a color matched spool of vinyl is fed into the heating element of the iron. The melted vinyl bonds the two sections and makes a water tight seal to keep water from getting underneath the floor, which would make the rubber flooring to lift. If you look, you can see these "welds" on those black rubber floors. I know of this because we had our hall floors redone and this same method was used.
Bill "Newkirk"
John
Stef & N Train started the day sanding, priming and changing out
windows on 6688. Midday they were joined by the PM crew, Mr. T. &
BMT Man. But at the conclusion of the work day, they did remove
some oxidation from the wheels of the R-17, after the demand hours
ceased. [The Lady in Red couldn't come out to play on Saturday, due
to the weather conditions]. Weather permiting Stef & Andy B will
continue prepping and final coating it next Wednesday. Any assistance
of extra hands are welcomed to join the work party.
I was the designated car cleaner and took care of four service cars
during the course of the day, including bug removal from the windscreen of BRT 4573.
George P & Linecar 25 were at the East Haven Trestle changing over
the overhead, power line, etc,. to a replacement line pole.
George B, tended to his manegerial chores, as required and also
road tested a candidate for operations.
But the surprise of the day, after lunch was when George B asked, if
I would be interested in posing "A Trolley Car" in the vicinity of
Beacon Hill for a photo shoot. I advised CONNCO 1602 & operator
would be available for the assignment. To put the scenario in perspective,
that's a 1911 Trolley Car posing on a 1899 ROW, which
basically, other then the removal of the 2nd track, is the same
as it has been for 100+ years. "Living History".
After, the photo session, returned to the yard area and closed up
and parked the other vehicles, which were not needed and then "Polished the Rails" with 1602 along with S\A Mr. R-17 operating a streetcar. Well, there are similarities to seasoned IRT equipment. Longitudal seating and a concrete floor.
Wednesdays are work days at Branford, so come on up and get dirty. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Remember 1602 was remanufactured by the CONNCO Crew,
most of whom have other employment, on Mondays and Tuesdays.
The museum is not a Saturday\Sunday function.
CONNCO Crew now doing 865 Monday & Tuesday. Stef & Andy B will be
working on 6688 on Wednesdays. I'll be tending to service fleet as required or operations after 27 May. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Cheers,
Your Friendly Neighborhood S/A
8-) ~ Sparky
And also such things as a spouse who says that those days belong to her :-)
Given that my round trip travel time from the house in New Jersey to the Museum and return is six hours, I'll stick to Saturdays... that way I have Sunday to recover before going back to work Monday. One of these years I'll be able to retire and be a bit more flexible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have one of those also, most Branfordites do.
>>>"Given that my round trip travel time from the house in New Jersey to the Museum and return is six hours, I'll stick to Saturdays..."<<<
To keep everything in the proper perspective, shouldn't that be
occasional Saturdays? Don't embroider the facts. Yes, all donated
time is treasured, some come once a month, some for a week or so of
vacation and others dedicate whenever possible. It's a strong mixture
of devotion to a cause. And a good number are functional in more than one location.
As for drive time, I stopped counting those hours years ago.
When I was still employed, at various times in my Branford tenure,
I've been the Friday or Monday person in operations. Now, Wednesdays
are more prevalent to availability. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
But you have two things going for you that I don't: one, you're retired, and two, your spouse shares some of your enthusiasm for the Museum.
To keep everything in the proper perspective, shouldn't that be occasional Saturdays? Don't embroider the facts.
No one's embroidering anything, Sparky... you and every other Branford member on this board know that I come up when I can, which during the main operating season (May - October) is usually twice a month. It was simply a reference to Saturday being the day of choice - you're reading too much into my original statement. Very few members - even among the ranks of those fortunate enough to be retired, like yourself - have the option of devoting even one full day a week to BERA, and I'd venture to say that almost all of those who do spend that much time on behalf of the Museum are not significantly involved in other activities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's your opinion, to which you are entitled. But many Branford
weeklies are employed and do have other interest. I've been their
for 18 1/2 years, so I think, I know who does what when. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The wife, sure I'll be sure to save a couple of days to do something nice with her < grin >
Why can't all stations look like this?
wayne
Your own photos say it all
wayne
Franklin's color scheme is a bit loud, but in a way that's part of its charm.
The station has remained in excellent condition, partly because it has comparatively low traffic, and it's not in a neighborhood that sees a lot of riff-raff.
"Why can't all stations look like this?"
Every year, a few more stations improve. But as Larry Littlefield recently pointed out, if a renovation is meant to last 50 years, it means that only 1/50th of the stations are renovated each year. So it's a slow process. And it is only comparatively recently that station beauty has been part of the equation.
I've also observed that the really beautiful rehabs tend to be at local stops. The express stops and major transfer points suffer a lot of wear and tear, and don't seem to get this type of rehab. Times Sq is getting there, however.
Except Chambers itself, which looked scruffy when I was there last November, staying at the Cosmoplitan Hotel which is right by that station. I agree that Franklin looked pretty nice.
Mark
I don't work for TrainWorld but I now many of you purchase these sets so I figured here's some advanced word.
Look here
--Mark
--Mark
I'll bet Nassau Hobbies & Willis Hobbies will also take such an order, if those stores are more convient to you.
With Train Land/World make sure they put the cost on the pre-order as they have the habbit of raising it if they see a big demand by the time it comes in.
>>>"TrainLand/World is also STILL taking orders for the soon to be released Proto 2000 series HO scale R-17 sets from LifeLike (due in June)."<<<
Brooklyn, there's your HO scale set. From my understanding, the
LifeLike R-17 will be exclusive to TrainLand/World with an allocation
for the Transit Museum Store. [Licensing agreement and yes TainLand/World
is a large enough dealer to have an exclusive limited run]. Hope that info helps you. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
You are a gentleman, and a scholar.
And the crash-it was supposed to be a "simulated" crash-i.e. stop the train, remove it from the track, and treat the section of track as temporarily unusable. Ironically it happened to end up actually crashing. To this day I'm trying to figure out how the hell that happened...not enough pins, maybe?
On a lighter note, the thought of TrainWorld brings back memories...when my family's hobbies were cost-effective...I used to go there like every other week with my father in the summer, we would either take the L to the M to the F (transfer @ 4th/9th) to Ditmas, or if it was a weekend we took the L to the A to the F. I always thought they were a small local hobby store on McDonald Ave...I never knew they had such large (and expensive) operations.
Corona Maintenance Shop
Guided Tour
Saturday June 21, 9:00 AM
Members $15, Non-Members $20
RESERVATIONS AND ADVANCE PAYMENT REQUIRED.
The Corona Maintenance Shop supports the 400-plus car fleet of the #7 Flushing Line. Five sets of track cand hold up to 55 cars within the shop and the 29 storage tracks in the yard have a capacity of 409 more. Join Joseph Ragusa, superintendent, as we tour the entire facility, including a subway car wash. A new facility will soon replace the current structure, constructed to support the many technologies and features of the new 142 and 142A cars.
==================================================================
The number to call for reservations or questions is : 718-694-5139 Tuesday - Friday 10 AM to 4 PM.
These tours have a limited capacity and they do fill up fast.
Really? Not to be rude or anything, but does anyone know where I can obtain details on this new facility.
...and here's the other page of interest for you guys
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
“Them” is Rich Galiano, who has put together a great site about NJ Scuba resources. However, he is very opinionated on just about everything (including browsers) and will be sure to share it with you. If you want to discuss the browser issue, send him e-mail at galiano@optonline.net.
Getting this back to transit, Rich has been working on an underwater tripod, so he can take long, naturally lit shots underwater, similar to the ones Herb Segars took of the dead PATH trains. He had his second prototype ready yesterday and took it and camera/housing into the pool to see how it worked on an Open Water class that was running.
Now all we need is some NJ Redbirds!
John
However, they are using FrontPage, which means sooner or later something is going to break Netscape/Mozilla/ & Opera support. And since this webmaster believes that CSS doesn't work properly in anything other than IE, he probably won't bother fixing anything that doesn't view properly under other browsers since he is under the false impression that if it works under IE, that it is the fault of other browsers for not following the "standard".
It's my opinion that you don't run a web site to exclude people from viewing it-- on purpose. I can understand to a point why it's done -- hire cheap developers who only know one browser, etc-- but I suspect very few corporate webmasters have gone into their CEO's office and said "here's our cool new site and we expect that 10% of our customers won't be able to use it." and left with their jobs or asses intact. They say instead "Everyone can just upgrade their browsers! Yay!"
In the corporate world you don't go around upgrading system components because it's "cool" and you certainly don't let end users do the upgrades themselves. That's one of the reasons why we're stuck with NT 4.0 and Office 97 on the desktops here. It takes a lot of effort to certify that upgraded components work well together and are supportable. You don't upgrade a trading floor system "because it's Cool". But no one's told web developers that! You end up having developers build apps that the end user desktops can't support, within the same firm.
BTW, what version of Solaris are you using? I've worked on Versions 1.1.2 up to and including 9. I actually have an old Sparc 20 at home that I took from my last job after I retired all but one machine that was lower than an Ultra.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ahh...memories, my first machine was a 486/66. It is still running somewhere in Brooklyn as I gave it to a friend.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Opera 7.03 on a Win98 box here, and I don't have any trouble accessing the site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Briefly, the plan calls for re-zoning a large swath of land in the vicinity of the Hudson Yards. The #7 subway would be expanded westward to 11th Avenue, and then southward to 33rd St. New stations would be added at 42nd & 10th, and at 33rd & 11th. The scoping document says that the re-zoning and the subway construction must go hand-in-hand, neither one being much good without the other.
This subway route is a change from earlier documents, in which the #7 extension would have gone south before turning west, including a stop at Penn Station. That plan would have offered a 1-seat ride between GCT and Penn Station (I am not sure how valuable that is), but it would have been more complicated to construct due to the tangle of existing lines and the built-up commercial activity along 8th Avenue. Also, the new plan provides two new stations in areas now lacking subway service, instead of just one such station.
Not a lot of detail is offered about the subway extension (which is appropriate in a scoping document), but it appears the tail tracks would point south, not west. This suggests that any future #7 extension will continue down the West Side, not into NJ as some people have suggested. The construction period for the subway extension is given as 2005-2010.
Also mentioned are plans to expand the Jacob Javits Center, to build a new "Multi-Use Facility," and a hotel complex. The "Multi-Use Facility" is what other people call a "Stadium," but the term has been chosen to emphasize its adaptability to other uses than merely as a place where the Jets would play 10 games a year.
The Olympics are mentioned, but only in passing. Clearly, they do not want to place undue focus on a 1-time 3-week event that might not even come here.
Honestly, Brooklyn has excellent access to Downtown Manhattan, it's time Staten Island gets it's due.
"The portion between Battery Park and St. George can be retrofitted with high speed (70 MPH) capabilities...."
It can't be retrofitted, until it has first been fitted.
(Seriously, the plan at one time was to extend the 4th Avenue Line in Brooklyn to Staten Island. Robert Moses killed it, so that he could build the Verrazano Bridge instead. That would be a cheaper way to bring the subway to S.I.)
http://1010wins.com/siteSearch/winstopstories_story_116090021.html
The problem is that it will never happen. Many people in the areas around CI would welcome the Casinos and the Jobs they would bring.(dealers make between $17-30 hour) Unfortunitly the ultra librals who rightfully claim that gambling brings many social ills would never allow it. What they fail to mention is those who are prone to blowing all there money on gambling already have an outlet
ie OTB, LOTTO, free bus to Atlantic city, local illegal gambling hall, cock fights etc
In addtion with the building of kewspan park there is not much beachfront real estate big enough to develpe a casino without tearing out some of the outdated amusment attractions such as the batting cages and go carts or tear down and relocate the poorly placed public housing projects that dominate the landscape
The Govenors island location quietes alot of the critics who would use land use and traffic review studies to stop any casino developemtn in Coney Island. Much of the NIMBYism is generated by groups such as NYPIRG who looks to find a victom so that they can file a lawsuit to stop the project any project
A NYPIRG affiliated group sued the parks department a few years back who preposed to allow Golden Bear golf to build a golf driving range on a derilict stetch of land that was officially park department property along the belt parkway just west of cropsy ave. The site consited of 2 soccer feids and 25 acres or trash and weeds. Not far fron the new home depot
The NYPIRG affiliated group used statistics in there lawsuit that stated brooklyn had two few parks and that a pay driving range would infringe of the right of NYC citizensd. paying no mine to the fact that the area where this facility was to built has tons of parkland and the proposed location is not near many residences and is hardly used by parkgoers. Neighborhood group supported the parks department plan
To make this long story short they found a judge to block the project. The two old soccer feild and weeds and garbage are still there
The develper would have paid an annual $600k payment to the parks department, built a waterfront promenade plus build an addional 10 acres of ballfeilds and soccer feilds that golden bear would have paid for the upkeep
A CI casino no matter how good for the econmomy will never happen. The biggest winners would be all the housing project residents that surely would get the lions share of jobs at the casino as any deal to bring the casino would need to give consesions to the community
Arti
1. you dont want to put another mall out in da boondocks.
2. more better? Not to nag, but that's bad english 101.
I was of course only messing around. heh.
It had one bennifit it chased the hookers away with all the extra traffic
what made me laugh the most about the state senator Karl "the idiot" Kruger is he argued that the casino NY boat would attract undesirable, The area where the boat was and may return this spring was cleaned up by the boats arrival
The boat sits next to the Wind Jammer hooker hotel plus on the other side of the highway the golden gate in also features many street walkers
On the other hand, if you've ever been to Laughlin, Nev., you know that people will go pretty much anywhere and entrepreneurs will build any type of hotel building if they cam put a casino in it. Even with its isolation, if casino gambling was licensed for the Rockways, people would find a way to get there, and others would find ways to build hotels out there.
A downside to that would be any possible height restrictions on the hotel buildings due to the JFK flightpaths (given how close the airport is to the strip in Las Vegas, this may not be a major problem), while the larger problem would come from tourist-related businesses in midtown Manhattan that would fight any casino idea for the Rockaways (or Coney Island) for fears it would cut into their business. The Atlantic City hotel owners and the state of New Jersey would also try to fight any NYC casino plan -- the casinos because it would cost them all their casino bus "day trippers" who would turn into MTA "day trippers" if there was a CI or Rockaways option and the state because all that gambling tax money NJ gets right now from New Yorkers would vanish, and possibly go the other way if people from northern New Jersey decied CI or the Rockaways was a better option.
If the administration were to consider casinos...no doubtedly the MTA would have to do something about it to compensate for the expected additional ridership numbers.
For example, take the 7 extension to the West Side. It's being done for the Olympics, but benefits are also mentioned on the MTA's website, as noted by oakapple. Examples include development, especially commercial around the Hudsen Bay area, quite barren indeed.
Now we turn back to the Rockaways area. In many ways, it's quite barren ever since all of the hotels and other places of interest left the area since I dunno...hmm 1950's? If anything please correct me on the year. Back to the issue, the casinos would bring needed money anbd tourists which in turn bring more money to the city... All good of course, unless you believe the casinos bring 'social ills' as some other poster posted within this thread, I believe. I won't comment any more on the issue because I don't any more on it, but other posters may do so at their own discretion.
All the way back to the topic at hand, the MTA would probably add new rail connections or somehow improve the A line's infrastructure in relation to the entire system. I know many people are aware of the LIRR Rockaway ROW along in Queens. This would be a perfect opportunity. Rehab the line and have the A run along this line. Just a perfect solution. I wouldn't know where the extension would end north, but I'd assume it would act as a new line in Queens, maybe connecting with the Queens Blvd. IND. IMO, this plan has a lot of parallels with the CI Stillwell Terminal Project. Besides the reconstruction, and the Manny-B reopening coinciding with it, that draft plan suggested changes that will improve service along the Brooklyn subway lines. I'm sure the plan I suggested with the A change in the Rockaways would have a similar effect, demanding changes in other parts of the system.
Whew, that was a lot... A lot more so then I thought. I'm sure my plans are not perfect so give suggestions or augment my plan as you wish.
Thanks, CPCTC!
With the increase in residence the line may warrent more service
The A already has a northern line. Perhaps it would be best to extend a QB local along this line.
There is one developement currently in construction phase in the rockaways that took the developer 10 years of jumping through hoops ti get done.
CI is a better choice because it will draw many NJ gamblers and is close to the belt parkway. The rockaways has terrrible highway access with only the Marine Parkway and cross bay bridges and limited access road once in the rockaways.
CI along CI creek has plenty of developent areas that are not really sutible for housing and if more casino space is needed a platform over CI yards could allways be built.
Another good casino site would be above corona yards and casey stengal depot. There could be great access to both manahattan and the airports via an extention of airtrain to connect LGA to JFK. I already envision a new convention center and Hotel for the Area why not add a casino component.
Plus Flushing Medows Corona park adds places for gamblers or the spouses who do not like to gamble a place to roam around
What happened with Disney's proposal to come to CI, if they have an establishment there they could generate lots of revenue; especially since younger kids love Disney; for the area seeing there's lots of empty space.
Surely there has to be better ways for us collectively to support and upgrade our cities than to encourage people to spend what little they've managed to accrue above living expenses on meager chances to gain minor financial gain. Do we need yet one more blatent example to children of how silly and phony the adults are? As a "city rebuilder" concept it's a bust, consider how little of Atlantic City has actually been renovated. And A.C. has been a resort city for over a century! You might assume that it could really absorb he industry to its benefit. But away from the Boardwalk.....
To pin such hopes on the gambling industry is a sad, pathetic development. It helps the miniscule number of casino employees a little, and the owners a great deal. Would it help Rockaway Beach? I have my doubts. Build a Great Adventures or Busch Gardens there instead. Or make the beach as good as Jones Beach.
I preposed the idea as the only way a subway to SI via lower manhattan would be viable. Otherwise the ridership on the new SI branch would be so low that it would go down as the biggest porkbarrel project in NYC history
This plan makes much more sense. A 1-seat ride from Penn to GCT would have been nice, but the cost would have been immense and the overall benefit to the west side (and resulting tax base increases) lower.
Arti
But not from GCT to Penn!
Arti
I wonder whether they really have the tax base in mind. There is dicussion in the documents of moving the tow pound and sanitation facilities off of the river and into this neighborhood. This doesn't sound like the kind of neighborhood one would want to live or work in. A massive convention center -- which would be busy by day but likely be empty most nights. A massive "multi-use" facility -- which would be filled to capacity probably less than 20 times per year and unused a good 250 days per year. A sanitation truck depot and transfer station. The LIRR's West Side Yard. The Lincoln Tunnel access ramps. A massive auto impound yard. Is the Greyhound bus facility still in there somewhere?
Rather than creating a "revitalized neighborhood", it seems that they're creating a dumping ground for eyesores.
At least there won't be any costs in the EIS to relocate the hookers.
CG
With construction being scheduled to start at the end of 2004 and the Olympic bid being decided during the Summer of 2005, New York is able to hedge the Olympic issue. On the one hand they can tell the International Olympic Committee that the subway extension is already under construction. Of course if the IOC goes and awards the Games to another city, not so much has been done that the project can't be quickly and cheaply abandoned.
I haven't made my way entirely through the documents yet to see if it is there, but hopefully they can improve the connection between the 8th Avenue lines and the 7 train. Is it just my perception, or does one have to walk much farther than necessary to make this transfer?
I think you're right as far as New Jersey goes -- at least the oft-speculated connection to the Meadowlands. It appears that the extension is going to go below the 8th Avenue line, curve north up to 42nd Street (the 7 is on 41st at Times Square, correct?), below the Amtrak West Side line, curve south on 11th Avenue and go over the Lincoln Tunnel and Amtrak/NJT tunnels to terminate at 33rd St facing south. I'd assume that being that far west but that close to the surface would preclude any immediate crossing into NJ -- but there's a 1/2 mile along 11th Avenue heading south that it could drop and head out to Hoboken or Jersey City.
Or Staten Island -- yeah. That's the ticket. Staten Island.
CG
Doesn't seem likely.
Is it just my perception, or does one have to walk much farther than necessary to make this transfer?
It's your perception. It really has to be a hike. The west end of the 7 platform is only 300' west of 7th Ave and 750 east of 8th Ave.
Thanks. I was vaguely aware of that, though not to the extent of the detail you provided. I think that most of my perception comes from the access from the 7 to the 8th Ave not being at the extreme west end of the platform.
Perhaps a few million out of the billions could be put towards a nice pair of escalators, an elevator and a wide walkway with moving sidewalks to cover the distance between 7th and 8th.
CG
Clearly, if the #7 construction isn't underway by the time the IOC votes, NYC's chances of getting the Olympics are very slim. (I consider them slim already, but that's beside the point.) But I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that the project will be abandoned if the Olympics go elsewhere. I think they are truly serious in their belief that the #7 extension has long-term benefits regardless of the Olympics.
The #7 extension and upzoning of the West Side predates the whole Olympic idea by at least half a decade, perhaps a decade.
'Construction of the new (7) Subway Line Extension is expected to begin by Winter 2004.'
If anything, it's not so surprising to me since the MTA is have strides with the Manny-B project right now.
When I first read that I thought they meant Jan/Feb of 2004. From the dates for the EIS, though, it becomes clear that by Winter 2004 they mean that little 9-day stretch between Dec 22 and the end of the year. Which is still quite ambitious by NY standards.
CG
Pointing the line south does allow for tail tracks at 33rd and for a future extension, though given the closeness to the Hudson south of 27th St. or so, sending it underground the rest of the way downtown in that area probably isn't feasible -- it would either have to come back east to Ninth or 10th Ave. and then down Greenwhich or Washington streets, or they would have to bring the line above ground south of 33rd and run it elevated the rest of the way, probably along 12th Ave. or West Street (yea, the High Line is an option at least to 14th St., but the NIMBY headaches wouldn't be worth the battle)
As far as the New Jersey connection, but continuing straight across 11th Ave. that doesn't preclude a future junction somewhere in the area that would allow some trains to go to New Jersey while others continued to 33rd and 11th, or further downtown (given number of TPH on the Flushing line, even sending half the trains to Jersey and keeping half in Manhattan would still give both routes as much service as several other lines receive with their full compliment of trains).
A Greenwich Street line could make a connection to both of the PATH's Christopher Street and new WTC station. This new IRT extension could continue straight down Greenwich then merge and/or terminate with the 1/9 at South Ferry.
41st and 10th Avenue... The Number Seven is on 41st Street.
N Bwy
It will consist of me, at midnight, standing and foaming at the railfan window of the preserved Redbird as we traverse the new line on the first revenue train. David Greenberger will probably come along with me, and maybe 2 or 3 of the other "hard core" NYC subway buffs will be present. Any more than five railfans on the train will be a big surprise. Then again, since it is in Manhattan, it may be closer to home for many of you, so maybe more of you will come out for the ride. Considering, by some estimates, that there are over 700 active members of SubTalk, I continue to find the enthusiasm for "first ride" trips to be severly lacking and pathetic. HOWEVER, I am very pleased with the turnout for Peggy's trip. That shows me that, at least during daylight hours, many SubTalkers are willing to walk the walk and talk the talk.
---Choo Choo
How would you define active? There were posts by 404 distinct handles throughout the month of April.
N Bwy
Please note the alignment on the CURRENT far west midtown page of NYC planning:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/gif/pub/profwmt.jpg
Did you take the time to study this option?
The assumption is: subway + rezone = new CBD. It's not that simple.
Why not? That's been the development pattern for the last hundred years: build a subway, rezone, and buildings spring up. Hudson Yards is the last real "frontier" for ground-up development in midtown Manhattan, and it will have its very own subway line. I'm sure developers are already lined up to get a piece of it. Also, don't forget about the Jets stad- er, mulit-use facility planned for the site.
Where? Downtown and Midtown were CBDs before subways. If it's so simple, why didn't 8th Avenue -- which is a half-block from a CBD and on top of a 4-track subway -- take off decades ago?
N Bwy
I look forward to the analysis saying what the cost and ridership would be for the each route. If they even release all the info.
The conductor said there was nothing mentioned about a stepup fare.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
LIRR/MNR? Too late, the fares went up today. If you bought your tickets yesterday, they would have been honored today.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
They really ought to get rid of the "Coney Island Mixed Use Area" which is intended to prevent anything from happening in the area north of Memaid between Stillwell and Cropsey. If there were every an area where the transit availability calls for more commercial density, this is it. Lindsay proposed urban renewal and a major shopping center, but three people complained so he put in a special district to get their votes.
Lets hope he gets to CI before his term is up. Just another example of the non headline grabing work the Bloomberg administration is working on to improve our city for the future.
Let me give you a little inside information -- the staff members charged with getting those proposals through are not optimistic.
The City Council will be looking for opportunities to stick a finger in Bloomberg's eye to get their name in the paper. Not on the budget during a fiscal crisis. That would require saying "don't screw X screw Y instead." The Council wants to pretend to be on the side of X and Y. So they'll do it on land use.
It happened in the Giuliani Administration. The Council went along with Rudy on the budget -- until times got good and everyone wanted the credit for handing out poor. So they played games with land use.
That is why the concil is resorting to preaching in there update mailings that bloomberg is a millionair and out of tough
The truth shall set you free
Whether CI rezoning takes place or not. Who knows. At least Bloomberg will give it the old college try which is more than anyone else has done
There's also the minor fact that in many cases the locals don't want any rezoning for very good selfish reasons. I live in Manhattan Community Board 3, which is one of the most fanatical anti-rezoning boards in the city. They have successfully fought the introduction of high rises for 40 years, though there has still been considerable gentrification and corresponding increase in the tax base.
The opposition is partly left-wing ideology but partly also simple selfishness of the residents. I can see that the gentrification that has happened has brought good things as well as bad. In part, it has negated the moderate levels of traffic, density, etc., that attracted me to the neigborhood in the first place many years ago.
I especially like the the stanchions they used to support the terminal. They are nearly identical to the current ones.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The NY State Supreme Court judge presiding the case by the Straphangers Campaign against the MTA reserved judgement of this issue until then next hearing date on Friday May 9th. The reason: They must prove documents that the MTA cooked it's books.
So wake up to reality, the fares on subway and buses will go up this Sunday.
Hevesi's public statements have suggested that there was no evidence that the MTA did anything legally wrong. They filed all the paperwork and reporting they were supposed to by law.
Hevesi even asserted that the fare should have been raised last year to close last years budget instead of using bond refinacing and toll revenue to pump of the MTA's books
"Budget Brinksmanship" (TimesUnion, no subscription needed)
Now aren't you sorry you insulted Moopatties? :)
Moo…
Chuck Greene
REMEMBER, HELP YOUR FELLOW NEW YORKERS and SCREW THE MTA. EXIT SWIPE AND GIVE YOUR UNUSED FUN PASSES AWAY!!
Happy 72nd Birthday to the Empire State Building, an edifice that would not be possible without the subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the tower that is the Empire State. I remember the big feature they did on its construction when New York: A Documentary aired on PBS a couple of weeks ago.
All I know is, whenever I think of NYC, the ESB comes to mind first. It is synonimous with New York, just as the R-10s are synonimous with the A.
I doubt that the subway had all that much to do with its construction. The closest line to it when it opened was the BMT Broadway line, at the other end of the block.
The other end of the block was a Transportation Hub, when ESB was
built. Besides the BMT Subway, there was the 6th Avenue EL and the
Hudson & Manhattan RR to downtown & New Jersey. The main entrance
was serviced by the Fifth Avenue Coach Company, while the cars of
New York Railway, plied 34th Street, 7th Avenue & Broadway.
BTW, here's a question, that many New Yorkers, can't seem to answer.
What is the street adress of the Empire State Building? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, I know a Young Lady who worked at 350 5th for many years on the
5th Floor and to this day, has not been to the 86th or 102nd. She's
my bride of 36 1/2 years. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
(But as far as I'm concerned, once is enough... although I think I have been up there three times in my lifetime: once as a child, once with my wife and our older daughter when she was a teenager, and once again with friends around 1996.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Her attitude is if I didn't do it then, wy should I do it now.
Couldn't get her to go up in the late sixties\early seventies either. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peace,
ANDEE
Amazingly, MOST people born and raised in the city never do any of that stuff. :-\
Anyways, it turned out to be the nicest ride I've had in a long time. I recall a post earlier about station names to be after streets and not neighborhoods. I brought up Cypress Hills and I was corrected by the response being the entrance was on Crescent St. I noticed the exit sign also said Hemlock St & Jamaica Ave & Crescent St. So to go back to the station topic for a bit, Cypress Hills can be renamed Hemlock St-Jamaica Ave.
Back on topic here, I tried to find the Chestnut St connector, which if I'm not mistaken, connected at one time to the LIRR Rockaway ROW that's now abandoned. I remember the discription of the structure like an old switch section, but I couldn't find it on both trips. Maybe one of those new box offices was built over it.
Well on my return trip, I decided to change to the L at the Junction to try out the new R160 and catch the 6 from Union Square. The R160's are nice, but I think they would have better usage on the G instead of the L. These cars have good acceleration and being the L has some really tight curves, maybe the R160 would have better use of the acceleration on the G line. I know about the new signal testing, sensors and stuff, but I'm just tossing in a little opinion here.
I noticed one error at Myrtle Ave. The train indicates this station as Wyckoff Ave. But overall, she's a fine piece of equipment.
Aside from the IRT, which is my current favorite, I've always had some passion for the BMT. Especially for the Eastern Division. Hopefully, when I become a T/O, if I don't get on the IRT, I would like to run on the BMT Eastern Division, the J line especially.
Also, when I get a digital camera, I would love to take night time pics from the Junction's L platform. Not for pics of the yard, but when facing East, the way the lights in the neighborhoods are lit are breathtaking. All those colors. Perfect for a calender picture.
Jimmy
Certainly Park Place-Chambers St on the 2/3 would be a candidate. By the time the end of the train has left Park Place, it seems the front car is already entering Chambers St. But several of the stations on the L in Brooklyn seem to be extremely close.
Anyone know for sure?
Mark Michalovic
Mark
Mark
Arti
I'm sure that would of got LOTS of opposition.
Arti
The entrances are somewhat further apart.
CG
Part of it depends whether the center of the platform is under the street for which the station is named. I don't know that for Beverley and Cortelyou.
On my Hagstrom's, the following street to street distances look like a dead heat to the nearest 100 feet or so:
Beverley to Cortelyou
Wall to Fulton on William (2/3)
Rector to Cortlandt on Trinity/Church (N/R)
And in the case of Wall to Fulton, the Wall St station is pretty much all north of Wall St, while the Fulton St station is at least 50% south of Fulton, so that might actually be the least track distance between platform ends.
That may be roughly true, but still doesn't necessarily make them the closest stations. It's also true of the ones I mentioned, and also Wall to Bowling green on the 4/5.
Those are some very short distances between stations.
Rector-Cortlandt (N/R) and Wall-Fulton (2/3) are definitely shorter than any of those 3.
The 3rd Ave and the 14th St station aren't centered on the street they're named after, but skewed all the way to one side (far N end of 14th St station is at 14th, far west end of 3rd Ave station is at 3rd Ave), so the distances between stations are almost as long as the distances between entrances.
You're forgetting about the Rockaway line. Also the tunnels under the East River are probably longer.
CG
The east (south) exit from Park Place 2/3 is about one block from the entrance to City Hall N/R.
The secondary exit at Rector N/R NB is very close to the secondary exit at Rector 1/9 NB -- IIRC, they share a traffic island. And 1/9 SB is across the street.
Whitehall N/R is about a block from South Ferry 1/9.
The south exit from 57th N/Q/R/W is two blocks from 7th B/D/E.
The main entrances at 50th 1/9 NB and 49th N/R/W SB are a block and change apart.
The shuttle entrance to Grand Central is between Madison and 5th, about one block from the 7 at 5th.
Nostrand 3 and President 2/5 are two short blocks apart.
Lawrence M/N/R and Jay A/C/F are a block apart, but they're being connected.
Lafayette C and Fulton G are named after the same intersection.
Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza are about two blocks apart.
What else?
Crazy part is that the C has no entrance on Lafayette. However, the entrance at S. Oxford is one block over from the Fulton G's (closed) S. Oxford entrance. And its a REALLY short block. These would probably be closest.
CG
By the way, neither the MTA neighborhood map nor the Hagstorm's map of lower Manhattan show an N/R Rector exit on the traffic island that has the 1/9 secondary exit. But those may still be the two closest unrelated entrances, just looking at the main entrances at Rector.
I estimate that they are about one half of a (vertical) car length apart.
Arti
All tickets orders received as of last Friday, April 25 have been
processed and mailed with the corrected flyer etc.
A NOTE TO ALL: it's IND cars on Sunday, June 8 & Saturday, June 28
departing the Chambers Street Station on the 'J', but that does not
relegate the excursion to BMT trackage. It's just any easy pick-up point,
where the train may park in advance, without intefering with weekend traffic.
But that doesn't lock it into BMT trackage, North to Essex Street,
reverse thru Chrystie Street [not in service connector] and you are
on IND trackage at Broadway~Lafayette. The routings have not been
determined to date. Capital construction [GOs] have precedence over
the excursions. Not available at this time for the month of June. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But the flip helps those who prefer Saturdays, too. Whether you go on both Saturdays, or you go on both Sundays, or you go both days of the same weekend, you'll hit one A Division trip and one B Division trip.
Thanks again to whoever's responsible for the change!
---Choo Choo
Enough with the plaudits, the responsible persons behind the change
are not "Glory Seekers", but your contributing to this Charitable
Event is your best way to show your Thankfulness.
8-) ~ Sparky
This S/A will probably be sitting in Car 6609 for much of the trip (and soaking it all up) and enjoy some quality time with a relative of 6688.
I'd like to squeeze an R-1/9 trip in there somewhere, but that may be harder to come by.
-Stef
-Stef
But SMEE's, compared to the old timers WERE like driving a car by comparison. FWIW, "Dougie's train" scares me ... cab hooked up backwards, elevator stand to run it, I'd get that time/space continuum jiggy-legged "who teleported me to Heypaul's apartment?" thingy. :)
ME-23's may not RULE, but they DO stop. Most of the time anyway. :)
Hopefully they will stop before hitting a bumper block. Don't want SMEEs to turn into SMASHEs
The usual culprits have been in discussion, as to who's going on
which trip. The majority now seem to be doing the SMEE on Sunday,
June 29.
If we're watching ticket #s to see how sales are going, here's ours:
R1\9 - Sunday, June 8 - #72 & #73
R1\9 - Saturday, June 28 - #32
SMEE - Sunday, June 29 - #29
Since we didn't order tickets for Saturday, June 7 SMEE, will some
one who did, chime in with a number, please?
Advance Sales look strong for the 1st R1\9 excursion. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Yes, there still taking orders. The first batch of orders was processed
late last week and early this week. Seats are still available for all trips.
[Though by ticket numbers, the 1st R 1\9 is selling briskly].
So send your $$$ with a SSAE, ASAP and we will look for you on the trips. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
>>>"Oops I forgot to ask...exactly what forms of payment are acceptable (money order, personal check, cash, etc.)?"<<<
Dante,
Money Orders or Personal Checks, Payable to}:The March of Dimes{, are the preferred methods of payment. Don't send C*A*S*H*, a couple of others who mailed in early for tickets, had their orders returned. Seems the Post Office Person on the route that day, couldn't find the subway yard. [Don't Ask]. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
Your FEEBLE minded. Do you think a postal employee, who pilfers the
mails for C*A*S*H* would deliver same? Your thinking like a SCHMO!!!
No, the problem one day only, that I know of, was that the orders
were returned to the sender, "AS NO SUCH ADDRESS" or something
similar. I didn't see the exact terminology, but if either poster
choses, he can enlighten us further.
One of the envelopes was delivered at Members Day to the "P.M."
mailbox at Branford. He thought "it was so cute, they couldn't find
the subway yard in the Bronx, but located him in Connecticut." >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
Chuck Greene
TransitChuckG
I mean, Smeeeee...
:^)
Maybe you better send it back to driver's ed... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe you better send it back to driver's ed... :-)
Too late; I pronounced it "dead".
---Choo Choo
We recently moved, and I haven't come across my software stash yet. Also, the computer was nearly 4 years old, so with upgrades and hardware additions that I want, it's easier to start over; so I ordered a new one.
What I miss most is that I can't access my Webshots photos from work; Webshots is blocked by the morality application.
A computer-whiz friend recovered all my data for me, so I haven't lost my train/subway photos. My grandson photos were all backed up, and now I'll back up the train/subway photos, too.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Bob
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
"March Of Dimes" ... the benefactor of those who have bucks to ride Selkirk's favorite trains (Arnines) and them pesky SMEE's (redbird technology, starting with ArTens) ... wish I could make it, but once again we're sitting here waiting for an economy where folks can buy some of Unca Selkirk's software so's we can pay our bills and take a day arf to play. Alas, everyone appears to be trapped in their bunkers still.
Then again, I suspect the MTA has orders to "shoot to kill" should *I* show up anywhere near an Arnine sitting on "revenooer trackage" ... With our natural security code raised to "unpack yer Depends" level, I don't think security would let me anywhere NEAR a consist. :)
While my OWN preferences for charitable groups lean towards those who support legal freedom for anyone denied representation in political realities as well as electric railway museums, but more importantly FOOD BANKS and ENERGY supplimenters (after all, don't get cold in TEXASS) who keep people from *DYING* in winter) ... March of Dimes *is* a necessary and beneficial entity ...
Unca Selkirk though is TWISTED in what constitutes "public service" ... the ONE thing that is NOT considered in ANY "social welfare" scenario is the ability to provide the "poor" with "DRESS-WHITES" in military parlance so that they can LOOK presentable when they have an opportunity to go on a "JOB INTERVIEW" and have hopes of being PRESENTABLE ENOUGH to GET ONE. :(
Whoops ... right-wingers IGNORE that reality. Welfare would work MUCH better, and be available to ALL if only they covered *MY* situation when *I* tried to apply and got blown off 20 years ago ... "I need a SUIT and I need to pay my rent NOW ... if I can LOOK presentable, I *HAVE* skills, all I need is a *JOB* and my LAST JOB didn't REQUIRE me to have a SUIT ..."
Nope ... these are REPUBLICAN times and we can't HAVE ANY OF THAT. Nope, someone dressed like a bag of chit doesn't NEED a job. And the taxpayers don't WANT you to have that suit ... they'd rather PAY you to watch CNN. :(
Don't mind me ... March of Dimes does great work and all, but there's OTHERS in need right in YOUR neighborhood. And the politicos only want to shake them down too. :(
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The IRT SMEE trips depart from Grand Central Shuttle Track 1 @ 1030am.
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
8-) ~ Sparky
30 St. - Philadelphia, Facing south from Tracks 1 and 2.
30 St. - Philadelphia, Facing south from Tracks 1 and 2.
Yard outside of PHL. (What is it called?)
The 10:09p Acela Express to Washington D.C. is on Track 5.
The Atlantic City line train (2-Comet IV cars) - Comet IV Cab #5025.
Oh, and that yard is the Race St Engine yard, I think that the area where the amfleets and RoadRailers are commonly stored is called like the Arch St Coach Yard. I'm fairly certain that it's now Powellton Coach yard, cause that's SEPTA's yard to the west, just on the other side of the High Line and DrexelShaft.
Either way, I generally refer to the lower level area as 30th St yard, theres not much else it could be mistaken for, other than SEPTA's yard, and thats not really at 30th St.
Wassaic - Facing south from ground level.
Wassaic - Facing south on platform level. Shoreliner #6311. Is this a I, II, or III?
The mountainous countryside on platform level - facing east.
Wassaic - facing south. Nothing but mountains on all four sides. Shoreliner Cab #6304 in photo.
Wassaic - facing west. The metal moose depiction is in the lower-right hand side.
Wassaic - facing north. Shoreliner #6311 is in the photo with the leading FL9 #2024. The exterior speaker is clearly shown. What is the function of the little waiting rooms on MNRR platforms? There is barely enough room to stand, and the room is not very big.
Brewster North. Transfer point while returning to GCT facing south. The FL9 is trailing away to the yard outside of this station.
FL9 #2024 - Side view from ground level - facing west.
To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the contemporary signs the MTA uses for the subways. They're just plain ugly to me. I don't mind the color usage as some posters do on this message board. In fact, I think it helps distinguish the subway from the commuter rail system in NYC. It's the style, really. I personally don't go for the Helvetica font. I mean, why did the MTA change from that Akidenz (sp?) stuff?
Anyway, the pics of the signs are great. Black-on-white, bold and italized! Wow....
I think MNRR has color-distinguishers according to its lines. This sign has a blue stripe at the top of the sign. Blue was the color of the Harlem line on the MNRR map.
What is the Akidenz you mention?
Manhattan-bound 7 approaching Queensboro Plaza. The fuzziness of some photos shows the quality of this railfan window.
Rockaway Park Shuttle - 116 St facing northeast. The emptiness of the platform despite it being PM rush.
Rockaway Park Shuttle. R44 #5225. Is the storage track on the other side of this train just an ordinary storage track?
The railfan window I had on the R44 shuttle back to Broad Channel. There is a shuttle heading back to 116 St. in the photo. Approaching Beach 105 St.
Manhattan-bound 7 just east of Willets Point. Shea Stadium is in the right side. There is a GT35 marker and under it is a capital "D". What does this letter stand for?
Manhattan-bound 7 closer to Shea Stadium. A Main St. - bound Redbird is approaching.
1. I don't know who saw the photos.
2. It would be acknowledged to give a response instead of using up the bandwidth like it was nothing at all.
Yes it WOULD matter if you moved the photos to a site that didn't have such restrictions.
What the hell are you talking about? Other people do not use Angelfire. Other people therefore do not have any problems with people seeing their posts. FIRE ANGELFIRE!
#3 West End Jeff
Oddly, the cab is at the left side at one end of the train and at the right side at the other end. Anyone know any other railway that does that?
AP
Nagoya Railway (Meitetsu) 7000 series
Odakyu Electric Railway 3100 series (retired)
and 7000 series
The Odakyu ones are also articulated trains.
I know that Japan National Railway had trains of this type too, but I don't remember off the top of my head, any web sites that has pictures of them.
BTW, most of the subways in Tokyo built during/after the 60s have catenary, because they have through service to the suburban lines.
This concept was in turn, adopted by SNCF/RATP through service of the RER in Paris. On the earlier RER lines, ownership of lines was transferred from SNCF to RATP. After a study of the Tokyo subway by both the SNCF and RATP administration, it was decided that a transfer of ownership wasn't necessary for through service.
Of course, NYC and London have seen this type of service even earlier than that, in the form of H&M/Pennsy joint service, BRT/LIRR through service and Met/GWR/LNER service. But in the US, FRA regulations prohibit such service today. Who knows the future though? If anything, I'd like to see one day a JFK Airtrain/LIRR/NYCTA through service.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I had been assuming that NYCT would mail checks. Nope. New MetroCards, either PPR or unlimited.
I was hoping to buy a $120 unlimited this week, use it on the last day it will be accepted, and mail it in for a $116 refund. I don't want to end up with a PPR card with a balance of $139.20, if that's even possible, so I guess I'll have to find other ways to ease the pain.
Like going out Sunday and Monday and snatching up all the discarded cards with $1.50 balances.
Hey, I didn't think of that (don't worry I'm not going to steal your idea, I won't be anywhere near the city Sunday or Monday).....but seriously, I would think that the chance would be pretty good that there will be quite a few $1.50 cards thrown around when the turnsiles say it doesn't have enough funds. Many people don't want to be bothered, or may just think it's empty and fling it.
It would take someone with much patience and time however to swipe countless cards to see if they have cash though......but $4.00 funpass will still work......
Arti
(But, as the one who first posted this idea, I reserve the right to scope out other stations.)
Arti
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
I didn't know limousine liberals had a sweet odor.
If I use it one day and send it in for a prorated refund, I'm entitled to $116.
But that $116 is in the form of a MetroCard, not a check. Since $116 is more than $10, it's subject to the 20% bonus. That brings it up to $139.20.
Artio
I have to make up for the loss of the $4 Fun Pass somehow.
Arti
I agree with your assessment of the Fun Pass. It was nice while it lasted, but it's effectively dead now. It will probably be officially killed off with the next fare hike due to low usage.
Arti
Not necessarily. Tourists may buy it for the sheer convenience of being able to ride as much as they want without worrying about spending more money. NYC would be out of line with most major tourist cities if it didn't have a "go anywhere you like for the whole day" kind of ticket available at all.
I agree that it will rarely be worthwhile for residents, given that single rides (including free transfer privileges) cost $1.67 with the discount.
Still very useful for active tourists.
Remember, they never wanted NYC residents to use it in the first place; that's why pre-MVM they only sold it in hotels, newstands, and the Transit Museum.
Interesting idea. At the racetrack, when I was young and struggling, I used to find lots of discarded tickets good for a refund after a horse was a late scratch. Once I made a quick $60 that way. It was easier than picking a winner. Many people don't know the ropes. The racetrack tickets could be identified just by visual inspection though. The only way to verify a MetroCard will be to swipe it. Tedious. But have fun! :)
On Monday, May 5th, shops and maintainance facilities of the Transit Car Equipment Department will be receiving new Inspectors as well as those who chose to make a move. I expect that everyone involved will greet them with due respect, even for the 'juniors.' There would be NO SUBWAYS without the department that inspects and maintains the trainsets. WE MAKE TRAINS GO. CI peter
http://mta.info/nyct/service/schemain.htm
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
if only the redbirds were still here.........
The Q line still has 8 minute intervals most of the day on both Saturday and Sunday. The adjustment was made because ridership patterns are light on those times.
"Now that nothing's running over the bridge on weekends, the load is shared with other lines (R, W, IRT)."
The IRT going through that Montague rathole? And do we really want NYCT to recite the announcement "Please Watch Your Step" in a literal sense?
If anything, check out the B or D! They have many changes involving the Manny-B!
If anything, it's hard to get route timetables because most of the token booth clerks say no when I ask them. Pathetic., I have more luck if the station is devoted to one line, like G or 7. However, going for multi-route stops like TS generate nothing. I try to get a 1/9 brochure at the newest entrance and no dice. Just sad.
I see they're finally willing to admit that half of those Z trains don't stop at Broadway Junction...the three still listed as doing so probably don't either. They start at whatever lead is convenient, and stop at whatever stations they feel like. I have seen two Z's lined up to leave ENY at once, one stopping, one not. I still find it remarkable that out of only twelve (revnue) runs on the Z daily, they cannot keep the Z on time, ever. Of the six trains, at least one is always either late or out of sequence (i.e. Z-Z-J-J-J).
David
"Weekday W trains operate local in Queens, express in Manhattan
between 34 St and Canal St, and local in Brooklyn."
No they don't. On weekdays the W runs express in Brooklyn.
David G. and "Sylvain" are right and the PDF is wrong. W trains do indeed run express in Brooklyn on weekdays.
David
The LIRR seems to want nothing to do with the line east of Ronkonkoma. They don't even list Medford to Greenport on the online Ronkonkoma schedule!. You have to click the individual stations for the schedule. They are going to have to start to admitting it exists if the load at Ronkonkoma is ever to be eased. For the time being though, you are right - the machine will just collect dust for now.
What's the point of maintaining ROW if no mass transit is provided?
Arti
Plus I think that's the original LIRR main line.
Probably because those stations are listed on the GREENPORT branch schedule. [sigh]
That being said, I'm not sure I understand the point of the Daily TVM's. They don't look any smaller, they accept cash and credit cards just like the full TVM's. What's the point of only being a daily ticket machine? The only thought I have is that maybe they don't have to empty these of cash as often? Of course, are that many people really paying cash for their weekly/monthly tickets?
On the 6:42 from Medford, how full is the train when it gets to Ronkonkoma? What do you think would happen if after Medford it was next stop Jamaica? BTW it looks like Medford now has 4 trains a day in each direction -- is this just a summer thing?
CG
CG
Hmmm, I think it's just a daily machine, but I'm not completely sure. I'll have to take a look tomorrow morning.
On the 6:42 from Medford, how full is the train when it gets to Ronkonkoma? What do you think would happen if after Medford it was next stop Jamaica? BTW it looks like Medford now has 4 trains a day in each direction -- is this just a summer thing?
There are usually around 35 to 40 people getting off at Ronkonkoma. As to the feasibility of service to Jamaica, it's hard to say; some people might like the extra convenience, but I doubt there'd be enough to make the service worthwhile.
Medford's service level is the same all year.
Daily ticket machines are dark red in color while the standard TVM's are gray in color.
Bill "Newkirk"
The picture at the bottom of this page shows it was when the station opened. Not a very clear picture, but clear enough.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
Ignoring or avoiding problems never solved anything. Discourse and debate is what makes a free society work. Many people feel that your behavior brings harm to the board and have sought to engage you in a variety of ways. You have responded with nothing but malice and vitriol. Have you ever stopped to think that the problem just lie a little bit with you and your behavior? Maybe if you would make a point to listen to other's critisism and meet people half way they would respect you more.
As long as you insist to post without regard to other's complaints, we will continue to respond without regard to yours.
I try to inject a little humor here at SubTalk,
This is dependent upon you actually being funny. Your "jokes" are usually little more than laundry lists of punchlines. You lack delivery. Do you think that YOUR USE OF CAPS or ........ will induce laughter? You'd be better off using *g* as in:
Redbirds should be called Rustbirds *g*
The *g* would tell us that it is time to laugh, something that your current "jokes" neglect.
Seriously, delivery is 80% of a joke and if you re-structured your writing they would probably be funny.
Here's a tip, unless you are posting news, do not have your posts read like an article. Subtalk is interactive and it also helps to try to engage the other list members to post.
For example, in your Redbirds post you should have tried something like:
"I was thinking about some alternatives to dumping the Redbirds in the ocean and here's what I came up with:
--list of uses described each with a full sentence--
Can anyone else come up with any more??"
Finally, the other 20% of a joke is originality and most of your jokes have been posted here many times before. I don't blame you for not knowing what has or has not been popular, but without any literary padding in your posts they become just a tierd re-hash.
:-)
This Time at Boro Hall, I was prepared with a crips new $5 bill that I got from the clerk (super nice about it) and the machine short changed me!
Unbelievable! What kind of outfit are they running here. Or is this the standard for TA Bookkeeping? The clerk was great, super friendly and helpfull. But I just have to laugh. Now imagine this situation after they eliminate the fare clerks.
I got this crazy form to fill out and who knows when I'll get my dollar back. Now if the TA would short Changed 5 Million every day....
Chris
I don't know if you got a receipt from the MVM, but if you did, you would call the 1-800-Metrocard number and see how to apply for a refund. This if there was no agent there at all. The receipt is the only evidence of the transaction.
Bill "Newkirk"
"The entire New York City subway system is underground."
Never been outside of Manhattan, eh?
"The entire IND Division was built underground."
Smith-9th viaduct!
"Everything in Manhattan is underground."
Not only the two bridge approaches and 125th/Broadway, but four elevated stations further up the line.
"All IRT lines become elevated when they enter the Bronx."
Nothing is elevated above 149th Street. The 2 and 4 each make two underground stops, the 5 makes three, and the 6 makes seven. The 5 temporarily goes underground at Pelham Parkway.
"Once a line comes outside, it stays outside till its terminal."
Main Street. Jamaica Center.
"All BMT lines that go into Brooklyn go outside sooner or later. All BMT terminals in Brooklyn are elevated."
Bay Ridge on both counts.
"The L serves Manhattan and Brooklyn only."
The L runs along the Brooklyn-Queens border for almost a mile with two of its stops straddling Wyckoff Avenue.
As implied on a T-shirt in the Transit Museum shop: "The A runs from Manhattan to Brooklyn."
Queens: The Forgotten Borough.
"All mainline IRT lines go to the Bronx."
The 3 stays in Manhattan, though it is a short walk over the Harlem River into the Bronx from 145th Street.
"The northern terminal of the A is in the Bronx."
Manhattan's northern boundary is NOT 125th or 145th Street. It's highest numbered street- at least on the island- is 218th.
"The D train was the first IND line to serve the Bronx."
The D wasn't born until 1940, when the 6th Avenue line opened. Prior to that, Bronx IND service was solely provided by the C- or CC.
"The Rockaways are an island and politically part of Brooklyn or suburban Long Island."
Part of Queens, but connected by land to suburban Long Island.
"All IRT and BMT lines and stations were completed and in service before ground was broken for the IND."
The 3 wasn't extended (albeit via yard trackage) to Lenox Terminal until 1968. The Dyre line was acquired for the IRT in 1941.
"All elevated lines were completed before ground was broken for any underground subway line."
The original IRT subway opened for service in 1904. Most modern els opened for service after that, the newest being Pelham (1920), outer Livonia (1922) and outer Flushing (1928).
"The Depression put a stop to all subway construction."
Most of the IND was built during the early to mid 1930s.
"The Redbirds served the IRT for over forty years."
The R26s through 36s only became Redbirds as we know them in the mid-eighties. They were variously brown, dark green, jet black, maroon and 'World's Fair' when delivered. Over the years they also wore the TA-standard gray with wide blue stripe and 'anti-graffiti' white.
"PATH is entirely underground."
For railfans, too ridiculous to contemplate.
"All transfer stations are express stations."
Columbus Circle. Yankee Stadium. 9th/4th Avenue. 74th/Broadway. Bleecker. Franklin/Fulton. 51st/Lex. Canal/Lafayette.
"All original express stations have island platforms only."
Nostrand/Fulton. 86th/Lex. 34th/Penn. Atlantic/Flatbush.
"All local stations have side platforms only."
Grand Army Plaza. Innumerable stops on Canarsie, Crosstown, Jamaica and other lines.
"All terminal stations have island platforms."
Flatbush Avenue. South Ferry.
"The Sea Beach and Brighton are the only lines that run on ground level or in open cuts."
A lot of the Dyre. The West End portal approaches, outer Canarsie and extreme outer Myrtle.
"Queens lines always get all the new equipment. Bronx lines get all the crappy old equipment."
The J, M and RR in the seventies and eighties. The 1, 4, 6 and D in the late eighties.
"You can turn around at any station with a mezzanine."
33rd, 40th and 46th on the 7. Briarwood/Van Wyck.
"It's worth it to ride a packed express over an empty local because the express is ALWAYS faster."
Queens Boulevard or lower Lex in the rush hour.
"It's easy to get a seat outside of rush hour because trains aren't as crowded."
Uhhhh- yeah.
"Riding a local for two stops instead of an express that will skip the one intermediate stop is a fate worth than death, so by all means wait for the express- no matter how many locals go by."
"There's money on the floor right inside the car doors, so you'd better plant your feet right there and not move. Standing in the middle of the car will cause you to lose your job and your mate, or to die a slow, painful death."
"It's perfectly all right to stop at the end plate of an escalator and look around to see where you are."
"The conductor or fellow passenger will INSTANTLY know what you mean and be able to direct you accordingly when you ask if this train goes to 'Broadway', 'Brooklyn', or 'downtown'."
"Exposed dogs are welcome on the subway. Any conductor or police officer who orders a passenger with an exposed dog off the subway is mean, cruel and probably hates animals."
"Preaching on the subway is a valuable public service, because there may be some people who will instantly adopt the religious philosophy of the preacher that happens to be on the same train as them."
"Old Metrocards are NEVER to be discarded in trash containers- only on the floor."
"
South Ferry is argueably not a terminal as trains do not terminate there. The 1/9 only has one terminal, at 242nd St.
"The entire IND Division was built underground."
Smith-9th viaduct!
That viaduct is an aberation, and can be treated as an exception to the rule. Same with Fren Rock on the SEPTA BSS, the BSS is still an all underground system even thought Fern Rock is technically above ground.
That's rather pedantic. The last stop on a line is conventionally referred to as its terminus, or terminal, regardless of the mechanism employed for turning the trains around.
Anyhow, these myths & falsehoods were good for laughs, but the provenance of some of them is bit doubtful. Who ever said, "All terminal stations have island platforms?"
---Choo Choo
For passenger purposes, South Ferry is the south terminal. (What south terminal does the signage give?)
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is just from personal experience.
Chambers Street is the 1/9's southern terminal.
---Choo Choo
Specifically, when the trains are heading in the Bronx-bound direction.
Actually the original LIRR Mott Ave station was on the viaduct just east of where the current one is now. It looked just like all the other LIRR stations between Wavecrest and Seaside (two side platforms, lots of wood, etc). There's a photo of it in the book "Change in Ozone Park" on page 59. The line was severed at the western end of the original Mott Ave station. The LIRR used the original Mott Ave station as it's terminal for a while after the IND took over the rest of the Rockaway Line. The subway used Wavecrest as it's terminal. Later, the IND built the current Mott Ave station where the line was severed on the subway side, and the LIRR eventually built it grade level station where it is now. Then the portion of the viaduct in between was removed, including the original Mott Ave station.
Oh, please. Does that mean the PATH's Hudson Terminal was mis-named because of the loops? Or Grand Central Terminal what with loops on both levels??
The access doors are open on both ends of every subway car.
All Trains stop at 59th Street.
There is an undercover cop (usually dressed as a homless person) in every car.
The people on your commute are always anonomys strangers. Never would you see the same people day in and day out.
Clear and concise announcements are a common occurence!
If you pee onto the third rail you get electricuted.
All New York Natives know every route and stop by heart.
That's neither a myth nor a falsehood.
BTW, I keep forgetting to buy that book...I never finished reading it. Every time I pass through GCT I either don't have the money or forget to go to the TM annex store and get it.
Like the fare control at 52/Lincoln is IND-style as depicted by NYCSubway's (7)'s section and the 'TS' IND tiles at the very west end of the TS terminal on the 7. Very weird. The 7: The tri-run line.
I checked the 52/Lincoln station section and I stated something incorrectly. It says it has 'IND-style fare control grilles.' Hmm, it also said the original controls were closed.
Dogs must wear pants on the subway?
I've seen some wear skirts. :-D
I've seen some wear skirts. :-D
"The IRT and BMT subways were paid for by the City and given to the private companies to operate."
The idea that the City paid for the new subways (in fact, the expense was split approx. 50/50) and then handed them over to private interests was a populist argument against the private companies that is still repeated today.
14 St-6 Av/7 Av/Canarsie, Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker, Smith 9 St [to the G]
If they're riding the Rockaway Park shuttle. These people seem like they don't know too much about the subway; they should ride the 4 on weekends for example.
The highest number on the island of Manhattan is West 220th Street (the north terminal of the M100), opposite the entrance to the Allen Pavilion. The very next intersection is 9th Avenue, then (over the Broadway Bridge) West 225th Street.
I have said no such thing. Had I said that, I would have been lying.
That would be strange! The Bronx had always used white on blue.
Jim Fish
This is NOT true. The Post Office considers it part of the Bronx.
Oddly, if you sent me snail mail with Baltimore, MD 21234 or Parkville, MD 21234 on it, it still winds up in my mailbox.
Interesting.
Ed Alfonsin
Posdam, New York
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, that statement also neglects the 6th Avenue express tracks, 63rd Street, Archer Avenue, and the Rockaway Lines.
Also to add, I guess this counts even though the terminal is outside, but on the L Canarsie-bound only:
Halsey Street (until that point - all underground)
Wilson Avenue (outside)
Bushwick-Aberdeen (back underground)
Broadway Junction (back outside again, and this time for good)
So Bushwick-Aberdeen does prove the statement false, as for Wilson the line goes outside, but then does go back underground for Bushwick, so the train did not stay outside after going outside the first time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So why aren't there train tracks on the Verrazano?
The Brooklyn-side approach would have to have been over a mile long in order to make the grade low enough for subways.
It says: "7-Day Unlimited Pass. $21, up from $17. Need 11 rides to make it worth the money, down from 12." Trouble is, Newsday has forgotten the discount available on cash-balance Metrocards.
Under the fare structure expiring Sunday, $17 buys 11 rides plus $.50 change. But purchase a $17 MetroCard, and you actually get an $18.70 balance, thanks to the 10% bonus on all purchases $15 and over. So, a $17 MetroCard actually buys 12 rides plus $.70 change. You therefore need to take 13 rides in a week for the Weekly Unlimited card to be worth the money.
Under the new fare structure, the bonus on cash balance MetroCards is 20% for purchases $10 and higher. So if you buy a $21 MetroCard, you'll get a $25.20 balance, good for 12 rides plus $1.20 in change. The new Weekly Unlimited card, just like the old one, is worth the money if you take at least 13 rides in a week.
Newsday gets the math wrong for the monthly card, too. They say: "$70, up from $63. Need 36 rides to make it worth the money, down from 43." Again, they have forgotten to consider the bonus on cash balance MetroCards.
Under the old fare structure, if you purchase a $63 cash balance MetroCard, you'll get a 10% premium, making your card worth $69.30. That'll buy you 46 rides, plus $.30. Under the new system, if you purchase a $70 cash balance card, you get an $84 balance, worth 42 rides. So the break-even point of the monthly cards goes from 47 rides to 42, not 43 to 36.
Newsday is right about the one-day unlimited pass, though. Under the new system, you'll need to take 4 rides for the $7 price to be worth the money, up from 3 rides.
I do agree that if you always buy your MetroCards in $10 increments, then the break-even point for the Fun Pass is between 4-5 rides, not 3-4. However, I think the Newsday article's statement on Fun Passes is defensible, because it compares the two options you have for spending $7 at one time. It is not really defensible in the other two cases.
Therefore they say subway fares are going up 33%, when in fact for any kind of moderate usage (other than the Fun Pass) it's only going up 22% or less.
The Fun Pass increase is 75%. That's the outrageous one. Well, IMO, the 30-day 11% increase is also outrageous, as is the B&T 17%. They couldn't all be kept within the 20-30% range?
Actually, I guess I'm in that category too. Whenever I considered the value of an unlimited card I always compared it to the list price of the individual rides instead of the actual discounted price. Now I see that with an old $4 Fun Pass I was only saving eight cents instead of fifty cents on three rides. When I file my expense sheet I always use the list price just because it's slightly easier. I'm sure my boss doesn't care though-- I often ask for $3 for a round-trip to Manhattan instead of the $9.50 off-peak or $14.50 peak that I could be spending.
But I still like the feeling of freedom on an unlimited card. For example, on an unlimited card I can take the A to Far Rockaway and then take the N31/32 to the N4 or even the N36 instead of being locked into Jamaica Center and the N4. I could also take the F to 179 St and switch to the N6 and later the N16 or N37 (which put me slightly closer to home). I can also switch between subways on an unlimited card and I can even walk through long passageways within fare control if it's pouring rain. Putting a dollar value on that sort of thing is hard to do.
I've never bought a PPR over $15, but my impression is that if you bought a PPR for $63, you would get a $1.50 bonus for every $15 that you spent. Therefore, the balance on the card would become $63 + (4x$1.50) = $69.00. Am I wrong?
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Either way, us T/O's still log 6+ hours of cab time per day.
A few weeks ago, I was at the 7-11 at Middletown Rd., complaining about something to another T/O. He was telling me that I have no rights because I am "from the street". Then, a customer at 7-11 asked me if there were going to be any service changes that weekend. He told me that he was going to Brooklyn for Easter, and was hoping to avoid the usual hassles. I laughed and warned him that there would be split service on the 6 line, and that he should allow himself an extra 30 minutes in each direction. He sighed, looked at his girlfriend, and the conversation ended there.
Two days later, I'm standing at 125 waiting for a friend who was going to give me a ride home. A n/b 6(from BB-125) had just detrained, and I was immediately bombarded with questions by anxious and confused customers. Among them was the guy and girl I met at 7-11 on Middletown Rd. We recognized each other, and he yelled, "You! It's you! You warned me. You were right"! "This is hell". I really feel for Bronx passengers. There is always some kind of major GO, forcing them to add more time to an already long commute.
For instance, the 125 St Lexington Avenue station is a block away from the 125 St Metro North station on Park Ave. One of the subway's most important missions is to provide connections to commuter rail, and yet these two facilities are a block away out-of-doors. I'm not sure which facility was built first, but either someone blew it, or politics interfered with what would otherwise have been obvious--to provide an indoors connection between the two. The SAS, as now designed, is supposed to finally rectify this error.
I think this is the worst station-placement mistake in the system. Whichever station was built second (125/Lex or 125/MNR) should have been closer to the other. Anyone have a better example?
DON'T EVEN think about tampering with my Brighton line, no way buddy. Beverly road on the Brighton line will be remembered for two things, the correct spelling of the street name (the IRT station a mile away has the incorrect spelling on the 1920 tiles, BeverlEy) and some of the greatest photo run-bys you can take of all trains that pass that curve at the north end of the station.
I would! I'm sick of the Brighton Line. If I moved, I'd probably like it again, but not now!
My favorite route to CI is the Belt Parkway.
You have that backwards; the IRT station omits the E (as does the DOT on the street signs for the section east of Holy Cross Cemetary, IIRC). The correct spelling is Beverley.
Beverl(e)y makes a slight jog at Flatbush. Is it possible that the two roads have differently spelled names?
From what I've heard, it was due to pressure by real estate interests.
R-32
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
I hated the old system. Some station agents made you fill out the back. 3 rides anywhere is a better restriction than unlimited rides boarding only at two stations. And you had to wait in line with all the people buying their single tokens. Maybe it was better when you could just flash your pass and walk through the slam gate, but by the later years all stations had them locked and you needed to be buzzed through a turnstile. Some station agents had the brain capacity to see your pass and press the button without it interrupting their other work, others were less endowed.
Would they then offer a free 24/7 bus making a continuous loop along Junius, New Lots, Van Sinderen and Blake for displaced pedestrians?
If so, I can agree.
I don't thnk anyone blew it at 125th St.
The railroad was at 125th St/Park Av for decades before the Lexington Avenue subway line was opened in 1918. The railroad dates back to 1831.
You are forgetting that the railroad and the right of way was owned by The New York Central Railroad not NY City. I am sure there would have been signficant legal issues involved between the NYC, the IRT and the City of NY.
Besides very few people wanted to get off at 125th St to get the Railroad because not all of the trains stopped there. Only the local trains. Long Distance trains would bypass the station which is why people always went to (and still go to) Grand Central. As a result, the passenger volume at 125th/Park Av would never be enough to justify a physical connection.
I have to admit before I retired I wished the "J" Station at Bway Junction was closer to the ENY LIRR Station. I worked at the 81Pct a block away from the Gates Av Station (now that I'm retired I could say that here!) when I did a day tour I took the train. It was a gamble as to whether taking the Canarsie Line one stop to Atlantic or walking was the better choice. Especially if you only had a few minutes to make your train. Sometimes if I was really lazy I would just stay on the "J" to Sutphin.
Which reminds me of a guy I know who lives near Yankee Stadium. He used to visit a friend who lived in Hartsdale, and he would take the # 4 down to Grand Central to get his Metro-North train, instead of taking the D train up to Fordham Rd. Granted, you have a bit of a walk from the Concourse over to the station, but this guy was "able-bodied" enough to handle it.
It just drives me crazy to go South when I want to end up going North!
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
1. 42 St
2. 125 St
3. Gun Hill Road
4. 233 St
5. 241 St(in some cases
Locations 3, 4, and 5 only have connections to a tiny fraction of MNRR trains, namely the Mt Vernon locals and White Plains ultra-locals. No connection to the Hudson or NH lines at all, or to most
Harlem line trains.
In some case from the #5 line ONLY if you are on the Thru-Express train to East 238th st from 4:30 PM to 6:45 PM weekdays only. Otherwise from the main-line of the #5 train it's a long walk for you or you will have to use the Bx 28 (Gun Hill) or Bx 16 (Dyre Ave) buses to get to Metro-North.
You are giving it too much credit, it doesn't even run for 2 hours, that is one of the thing the MTA should really expand on <5> service
The Fulton Street line has two express stations between Bwy-ENY and Downtown Brooklyn; it should have none. But the stop closest to Brooklyn's "Grand Central" at Atlantic and Flatbush is a local stop, and a distance away to boot.
Fortunately, they located Queens Plaza under Queensboro Plaza, so Queens is not as bad off.
Also, they need a direct connection between the E and LIAR at Jamacia.
As for the Penn kids, they've got like 3 subway surface stops on their campus, the LUCY(I have yet to see a Drexel student use those POS), the 21, 30, 40, and 42 busses.
Theres nothing unusual about the spacing of the MFL stations starting at 34th st, it's 6 blocks to 40th st, another 6 to 46th, and then 6 more the 52nd, after that it shortens to 4 for 56th. It wraps up with 7 blocks to 63rd, some amount (not much) to Millbourne, and just a little ways from there to 69th St. You cannot have a stop at 33rd or 32nd, becuase the subway-surface ramps are there, plus theres a Sub-Surface stop at 33rd st already, you can get off at 30th and transfer. It wouldn't make much sense to have a stop at 36th or 37th, becuase it'd be only 3 and a half blocks to the next stop, which would be like the stops every two blocks on the MFL in center city, that is the WORST section of track I've ever ridden! What we need is local bus service on Market west of 34th St (where the 30 turns south, leaving Market busless until the 31 rejoins it down the line) in a role similar to the C bus over Broad St. A trolley would be nicer, with all the LUCY route made part of it, but that ain't gonna happen...
This is under construction. It is part of the Airtrain-related desecration.
Beyond that, the LIRR station is only open for business in rush hour. It actually isn't surprising that 52nd Street (and others) have more customers.
The Court street IND station was evidently not a bright idea, though not because of the location.
There's really no good excuse why A-C and G don't have stations as part of Atlantic-Pacific-Flatbush LIRR.
I am not sure how I would have done it. In the very least, I would have put the Atlantic Avenue Brighton station under the IRT. I would also have considered a very different Dekalb, perhaps combined with Nevins, as the IRT/BMT transfer point. The again, relocating the Fulton IND for a connection to the LIRR is also desirable. We could have run it under Atlantic instead of Schermerhorn with a Broadway-Nassau-type station at the LIRR. And, then put a BMT Borough Hall station between Jay Street and the IRT, with a connection there.
Or just enhance the E.N.Y. connection. Anyway, it's enough with East New York being an assumed "no-mans-land". We ain't got time for that crap nowadays, and the real estate is too central and well served by rail to be left in the relatively abandoned state that it is. I think in ten years we won't recognize the place.
I kind of like the disconnected nature of the subway routings in the Downtown Brooklyn area anyway. I think that when they were built the area was such a strong regional draw that the main point was to get into the core zone. Probably similar to how it doesn't matter where you park in the lots surrounding a shopping mall. Get to the lot and zero in from there.
It's also very handy sometimes to have routes not be physically connected to each other but headed in the same general direction. Downtown is good that way.
But surely the MTA would put a new entrance at the south end, and then rename the station to go with the new entrance!
Hi,
I'm new at Subtalk, but to answer your question, the 125th St. Metro North station is older; many years over. First of all, the present station is just over 100 years old whereas the Lex. was built in 1908. Secondly, the whole Park Av. deal at that point used to be a cut (two tracks) prior to that. Then (apparently) they toyed with putting the station underground but that was aborted. This accounts for the current storage 'basement' that exists beneath what we see above the street. A little known fact. When You remember the whole dog-and-pony show was originally a horse - drawn operation (New York and Harlem R.R.), this paints a bigger picture.
Also, who's to say that it was economical to swerve the Lex over to Park Av. just to grab some New York Central passengers - even in those days. The Lex. already did one S-turn transition further south, why should it perform another? Right at GCT in fact! So; in fact, it had to avoid the terminal ( with its five levels of tracks) and the N.Y.C. tunnels altogether when heading north from that point. The route north was added in about 1908 as part of the Dual Contracts, even though the original route takes Park South, after coming from Bway. on what are now the shuttle tracks.
This reminds me of a third point yet. If remember anything abouth the architecture at 125th St., those tracks start setting up for the Bronx immediately upon exiting the station. In fact there isn't much left of Lexington after 125th St. so they're forced to cross the river. Hope this clears everything up. Nice to meet everyone.
R-32
-- Ed Sachs
What experiences have you had with customers paying with pennies?
There is a "discussion" over on Strappies about someone saying that he is going to protest the fare hike by paying his bus fare completely in pennies.
We all know the "legal tender" issue but I want to get the view from within.
Personally if someone HAS to give me a baggie full of pennies, I HAVE to count them. Not that I don't trust their assurtations that the amount is all there. It's is just a matter of ensuring that "accidently" there are no Canadian pennies in it. Of course the customer would have to explain to the people behind him that the line is going to be delayed a moment while pennies are being counted. Maybe people will be annoyed at this person holding up the line.
and what about more than 2 rides worth? are you forbidden to take it?
Because it is rush hour and there are other customers who have to go to work.
(Just to let you know, I will never do this to any of you station attendents.)
Bryanh
If you charge 1 Canadian penny and get an American one, you were paid extra (you got 1.4 cents). If you charge 1 American penny and get a canadian penny, you were underpaid (you only got 0.7 cents).
Basically the MTA doesn't want to get ripped off. Can you blame them?
Just out of curiosity, do most places in New York City accept Canadian currency at the normal exchange rate? Like for example where I work there's a key on the cash registers for American currency... we hit that instead of "cash" when someone pays with American money.
Everyone is expected to pay in US$ or by credit or debit card where accepted.
Only countries with second-rate currency allow you to use foreign currencies deep inside their borders.
I never said Canada was a second-rate country, I said it has a second-rate currency. I think we should unify the two currencies a la the Euro, this way they will have a first-rate currency (the NAD: North American Dollar).
I expect that Canada and the US will have seperate currencies for a long time to come though, because whenever something controversial comes up our government does what it does best... nothing.
Ah maybe it's for the best... I like our multicoloured currency anyways :-)
Oddly, our Treasury Department is actually looking at another redesign of our currency, with different colors for different denominations. It would also have more anti-counterfeit provisions.
Treasury has blown, however, the dollar coin not once, but twice. The basic problem is that they won't stop printing and issuing the dollar bill, and people are lothe to give up the familiar, so the coin never gets into general circulation. There are two in issue, the original Susan B. Anthony coin, which looks too much like a quarter, and the current Golden dollar.
The Light Rail and Subway ticket machines do issue them as change, but aside from the MTA here, not all the banks even carry them.
All the "colorized coins" Take your pick, they're all $29.95 regardless of the actual value.
No thank you.
As I mentioned, in Baltimore the major dispenser of dollar coins is the Maryland Transit Adminsitration, which is the major user of dollar coins in the Richmond Federal Reserve District. Stick a $5.00 bill in a light rail ticket machine for a single ride (currently $1.35, rising to $1.60 July 1) and your change will be 3 dollar coins plus quarters and nickels. Buy a Day Pass and you'll get 2 dollar coins as change.
Three of the major banks here, including Bank America, First Union and Provident don't even carry them.
Dan, isn't that more like 62 exchanges (transactions)? I think the average life is more like 18 months. Coins in general, on the other hand, have an average lifespan in excess of 20 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's the rub. It doesn't matter what the customer thinks of dollar coins. All that matters is what businesses think, since they are to be received in change. We never get them.
Mass transit would be a major beneficiary of widespread use of dollar coins. In addition to Metrocard, they could be used on the bus.
Personally, I think the government should just bite the bullet and get rid of the penny, nickel, and quarter. A dime is worth what a penny was worth 50 years ago, a dollar coin is the equivalent of a 1950 dime. Add in a 50 cent piece to replace the nickel, and change would have value again.
Pennies tend to build up in the poceket or purse. They either wind up in drawers around the house, or if you are especially viligant, you roll them and deposit them in the bank. We do, and you would be surprised how much rolled coins mount up over a short time.
It is typical of the TA to want to be accomodating to a selective profile of rider and whsh all the other rider would just go away.
Once again the TAs attitude is revaling of their contempt for a large portion of their ridership.
The dollar coin was introduced in 1987 as a replacement for the dollar bill, which was swiftly withdrawn. The two dollar coin replaced the two dollar bill in 1996. While we in the US have never embraced the $2 bill, Canadians used theirs heavily, so introducing the $2 coin made sense. As I understand it a CDN $5 coin was also planned for introduction in 2000, but has been indefinitely postponed.
The dollar coin would catch on very quickly in this country if the dollar bill were withdrawn from circulation as it should be. While I'm not particularly fond of the front of the current dollar coin (the eagle on the back is beautiful, though) it is at least distinct from our other coinage and should gain rapid acceptance when the $1 bill is retired.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
there IS a 50 cent piece, the half dollar, also not used much, although STILL made
Please, we all know Canada is America Junior... :-)
Je t'AIME Les Canadiens! Les Torontotiques, aussi. Heh. If any "Uh-mericans" want to purchase a copy of "Talking to Americans" as provided by CBC featuring RICK MERCER, which DEMONSTRATES why our Northern brethren and sisteren are a "bit concerned" about us, send me an email ... It'll cost for tape and time to dub it on company property, but "Talking to Americans" should scare the QWAP out of us as to how *WE* talked to Canadians. :-\
And yeah, Shrub and others made IDIOTS of themselves too, ON CAMERA. WITH audio. :(
Trust me here - you wouldn't BELIEVE how forgiving of us our neighbors to the north have PROVEN themselves overWHELMINGLY to still talk to us AT ALL ... Is it worth $20 for a dub? I might actually make it available to those who DON'T have CBC as a local TV station. :)
You think so, eh? I happen to know they import Cuban cigars which makes them an imminent threat to the security of the U.S. :-)
Tom
Well we should be ready to take action against countries that trade with the Cuban dictator. It's rumored that he is so evil that he even leases space on his island to a foreign country to squirrel away prisoners brought from across the globe to be imprisoned for years without contact with the outside world or charges being filed. Thank God none of our allies, who believe in human rights, would stoop so low. :-)
Tom
Every time I've been visiting and tendered US currency, the change came back in Canadian currency/coins with no exchange value. Give the clerk a US $20 for a 6 dollar purchase, get $14.00 CDN in change.
The only place I ever got exchange value was at the casinos, which are government run.
I usually pick up a decent amount of Canadian currency (at the offical exchange rate) at my friendly local bank here in Baltimore.
Which parts of Canada have you visited? The reason I ask is that I live in Ottawa and have only really done this here. It could just be that because Ottawa is the nation's capital and we get both a lot of foreign tourists and residents from other countries, the establishments around the city are more open to accepting foreign currency.
So with that I guess I'll change my statement to say in *Ottawa* you can usually get your currency exchanged at the exchange rate, but not necessarily in the rest of Canada... I assumed that if they do it in Ottawa they must do it in the rest of Canada too. I'll have to test this theory after I move to Toronto this summer :-)
Got to spend two weeks with the TCC's Chief Instructor and the School of Instruction in the early 70's. Road and operated school cars as a visitor from Baltimore.It was nice to be accepted as a fellow professional.
We did get our change in U.S. currency while at a store in Canada when we paid them in American dollars. They have a "converting" mechanism on their cash registers which converts the Canadian to American currency.
Here is the updated information on the transit project. Chapter 5--part 1 is now complete, and I'm still finishing up Chapter 4, with only some additional information left to add. The targeted day that I will get an opportunity to email Chapters one, two and the Introduction out will be on May 13 and May 14, so be sure to check your inbox on those two days. Chapter 3 will follow on May 16 and May 17. I will have to get back to you on the dates for mailing out Chapters 4 and 5.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. The first part of this chapter lists all the cars--real and fictional--and includes a table of experimental cars. The second part goes into detail about all the cars classes, providing a fictional context of their time on the rails. The third part covers retired cars (real and ficitional) beginning with the IND R1 cars and provides a fictional context of their time on the rails. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, in the third part, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: ???
This is a planned second appendix to this project, but I'm not sure what its contents would be yet.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I'm a cowgirl from Canarsie
And I ride the BMT
It's a subway, not a horse
But if you rode it you'd agree
That it's a bucking bronco
And it's better than TV
The shoot-um-ups are real
And the side shows all are free"
There are more in the way of lyrics, but I cannot remember all of the words. I saw a live theatrical production of N3 last year, here in PA, but this particular number was not included. All three of the musicals are very entertaining. The nun from Brooklyn is in all three and is named Sister Robert Anne. I think SubTalkers would get a kick out of this musical, if only for this one number.
Based on his postings, I'd say he defies all attempts at categorization :)
You mean heypaul is foam free ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Given his attitude I would not be surprised if he had set him on fire on several non-consecuitive occasions.
If Train Dude has a problem with a rail buff on TA property, Train Dude has to act as per his professional responsibilities. That Subtalker has no special privileges because he and Train Dude happen to post on the same Internet board. SoTrain Dude can be friendly to him personally (or not) and would then still be entitled to eject that person from TA property or a train if the Subtalker is breaking the rules.
I think you answered your own question.
No, I didn't - and that's what makes the question so puzzling. Train Dude's always been highly knowledgeable, and (except with respect to Heypaul) quite reasonable in his opinions and comments. Now, however, he's gotten totally nasty and sarcastic, basically a 100% all-around schmuck. Something's got to be going on in his life.
What message board have you been on? His views are extreme and he treats people with absolute contempt and condesention with little or no provocation. TD has always been viewed as you describe by a sizable segment of the SubTalk community, especially for those SubTalkers who worked for him or have run into him while on duty.
Of course most of the real TD dirt is discussed off the board.
What message board have you been on? His views are extreme and he treats people with absolute contempt and condesention with little or no provocation. TD has always been viewed as you describe by a sizable segment of the SubTalk community, especially for those SubTalkers who worked for him or have run into him while on duty.
I wouldn't go quite so far. Train Dude has never suffered fools willingly, that's for sure; if someone posts something that's stupid or ill-informed, Train Dude won't hesitate to point that out in no uncertain terms. That's one thing. With this security paranoia, and his attitudes toward railfans, however, he's really gone too far. There's a line between being stern and being obnoxious, and he's crossed it.
I don't work for him and have never met him on duty or otherwise, so I can't comment on that aspect of his behavoir.
But he has also posted a lot about religious and ethnic minorities; about welfare; about other themes where he has openly expressed hatred and prejudice and expected other Subtalkers to accept those posts as evidence of his supposed patriotism. This also describes some of his offline behavior. He often sees criticism as "personal attacks" when it is not, and his ostensible intolerance for nonsense does resemble a thin skin covering a huge ego.
I'm not saying these things because I hate the man; I do not respect some of his writing. The analogy is being able to respect a drunkard without respecting his drinking.
I think he's a colorful and knowledgable presence on this board. I have no problem with that. As to his personal circumstances, not many of us know enough about that to know if even specuulation is justified, so I'm leaving that alone.
As an understanding colleague to my rantings on about the Sea Beach, he has been more than a patient supporter even when I go over the line sometimes. This isn't meant to cast any negative thoughts about any of the rest of you but TD stands tall with me.
Someone stole his MTH trains ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Consider this: pictures, diagrams, schematics, maps or anything else...would anyone, despite innocent pursuance of their hobby, want to post or release anything that places passengers and system in jeopardy? The same goes for airports/shopping malls/subway stations/railroad stations/libraries/anything the public congregates in. Reuters letter instructs us to tell you, buffs and transit enthusiasts, to think first before any action that could be used to create harm in the future. TD has his abrupt way of expression but he is correct in reflecting current policy CI Peter
Dispite my personal dislike for that one subtalker, Doug, on the rare occasions when he's actually posted something transit related, I either ignored him or I responded with a legitimate comment or fact. It's only when he posts his idiotic, non-transit related clap-trap, that I take a shot at him. Besides, Doug, he's a big boy and i'm sure he can defend himsef when he feels the need.
His most recent post was about finding a subway car where the number 8 had been vandalized so that it appeared to be a 3. He stated that he was 'fooled' twice by the car. I stated that the posting was thrilling or words to that extent. If you think that's going for the jugular, Doug, then you need to lighten up.
Reuters letter instructs us to tell you, buffs and transit enthusiasts, to think first before any action that could be used to create harm in the future.
Well since we have given up so many civil liberities, imprisoned so many people and spent so much money we have to assume that the homeland is now secure and anything we could do could not possibly cause any harm. I mean he we gave up all these things and didn't even make ourselves secure from attack that would be just nutty.
Yes, I am a railfan. But yes, I also resent the selfish attitude expressed by many railfans who put their own desire above the legitimate needs and concerns of the railroad. Apparently many of you have forgotten how one of the subtalk family put his selfish desires above the rules and was arrested (although not charged) and possibly ruined the career of a transit employee. You forget how he was also later (having learned nothing from the previous experence) was ejected from two LIRR trains on successive days.
Growing up in Glen Oaks, Queens, we used to play stickball alot. To the best of my knowledge, there was never a law agains stickball but when people complained, the officers from the 111th Pct would tell us to move on. There was never any BS about our rights. We moved.
What really pisses me off, Peter is yours and other subtalkers who feel that my supposed employment status should be a factor of mitigation or aggrivation in what I post. When I first came to subtalk, I came as a railfan. I thought that my employment status might add some insight as to the day to day happenings but I didn't come here as an official representative of any organization. The idea that I should not get upset or feel strongly about a topic because of my employment status is simply rediculous.
I've taken strong positions before on other topics, both rail and non-rail related and each time - this same issue has been raised and frankly, Peter, I'm really tired of it. I've never heard anyone say that, "as a person in the banking industry you should be more temporate." or "As a police officer you should not express a personal opinion here".
Now as for my anti-photography postings - they are consistent with my personal feelings only. They are not meant to be a reflection of MTA policy although the MTA policy is for employees to report all such photography and have police investigate the perpetrators. I'm simply tired of pseudo-intellectual railfans who put themselves above the legal authority of the transit agencies that do set policy on their property. Railfans should not view themselves as invitred guests on rail property. Their interest and knowledge conveys no such rights. If this is too anti-railfan for you or others on subtalk - tough. Ignore me!
Finally, As for those who have linked my personal distaste for railfans who forget that they are not entitled to free reign on rail property with my annimosity for a particular subtalker, there is no linkage. Again, my personal feelings. Just like it was his and another subtalker's personal feelings when they were doing tag-team attacks against me with their idiotic posts about Amos and Andy. I don't recall anyone calling him or his hand-puppet for their nightly attacks.
There are railfans and there are railfans. Some of them have been known to go beyond the limits, for instance entering non-public areas or using flash attachments. Unfortunately, you seem to be lumping ALL railfans into that category, ignoring the fact that many (most?) of them play by the rules. And that's just plain wrong.
I always thought you were from Brooklyn.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know, I am a T/O in the A division, and work near TrainDude's work location. I've tried to meet him twice, but he was not around as we work different shifts. But I'm going to try to meet him within the next few weeks.
Come on, Steve -- all of that was OVER A YEAR AGO!
And where was your all rightous indignation then, Doug?
What TD hasn't said is where and how the LIRR has changed its official policy, and what they have done to inform the public that their policy has changed. No one else has heard of this.
In this case, the rule is more than a rule: it's a state law. Larry Reuter couldn't simply decide to ban photography on the subway; he'd first have to persuade the state legislature.
Are you sure? I really don't know, and the details are probably in an earlier posting somewhere, but usualy things like codes of behavior are just administrative regulations.
Nevertheless, I also am not convinced that the LIRR rules have changed. If nothing else, if they don't announce them, the rules are of dubious legality. After all, the TBTA very clearly says "no photography" at various places.
Apparently, the TBTA's photography ban was in place long before 9/11; it just wasn't enforced.
I think your position on railfan photography is a reasonable one - though I also think it is in the MTA's best interest to be tolerant and even gracious to railbuffs who take pictures.
You're entitled to be as passionate as the next guy or gal, and express it. Why not?
Having said that, I (and others) strongly criticized your posts when they expressed religious and ethnic hatred (esp. when masquerading as patriotism, which it isn't); you were similarly criticized over the same issue regarding emails. You fired the first shots there, and earned the response you got.
As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome here.
Dude's been here longer than I have, and by quite a good amount of time. I've chuckled many times at some of his comments, my favorite STILL being "when you walk down the street, do you leave sparks behind as your knuckles drag on the sidewalk?" TRUE New Yorker in those words.
It's not my place to explain Train Dude, but I *do* have a feeling as to a piece of it given some emails I've received in the past from other folks working on the MTA Paturkey farm who are no longer EMAILING either owing to the "fear factor" the MTA is imposing on their employees lately.
I always noted that Dude's purpose in posting in the past was to CORRECT really bad and innacurate technical information, and to explain why various things were what they were and why. Now, in the ever-enclosing fear and paranoia campaign of our leaders, it's becoming more and more of a thought crime to detail ANYTHING. Even though all the information's already out there in the hands of potential terrorists, the close the barn doors after the horses have already gone is paramount in management's mindset.
Memo after memo about not discussing ANYTHING in public has gone around, employees are being monitored for their activities not only at WORK but at HOME as well to ensure that official state secrets are only revealed elsewhere. So here's someone who has always been HIGHLY beneficial to us in the past not being allowed to dish details and corrections like before, possibly becoming more and more frustrated in not being able to settle various misstatements and errors in fact owing to this ridiculous "too late" sweeping policy, and then having to come here and read all sorts of silliness.
In the national paranoia which is being beaten into us with a never ending rampup in order to ENSURE that we cower in fear and vote "properly" in 2004 for our "leader", we're all the losers here as far as being able to talk the nitty gritty that made this place a lot of fun.
As MTA management sees "objectionable thought" here and whips everyone who knows what a modem is at work, I can only imagine that Train Dude's taken a good amount of guff for even visiting here. I'm sure folks have noticed how LITTLE we hear from train crews and other specialists with juicy details on subways, ALL of this a direct result of paranoia enforcement at their jobs. Damned shame this is ...
But I'd be willing to bet that he's incredibly frustrated at not being able to have the simple pleasures this board once represented. I've heard this from numerous OTHER people who I used to chat with frequently in the past prior to the latest rampup of fear at the MTA.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I can only suggest that if the guy bothers ya, don't read him ... and bear in mind that as a nation, we're going to hell in a handbasket under the current regime of bashing one another and beating up on those who don't tow the line ... I for one am really getting tired of all the negativity, shouting down of others and "my way or the highway" attitudes ... then again, these are Limbaugh times. What the terrorists couldn't do to us, we're doing to OURSELVES. :(
I feel for both T.D. and for all of us. I, for one refuse to submit to the claptrap coming out of the Admsissitration of Homeland (Paul G., where are you when we really need you) inSecurity and the house at 1600.
I didn't vote for him, I still feel that somethings not right with the 2000 election, but we are stuck with him. (BTW, given the history between 2000 and today, I'm not sure Al could have done any better over all, but who knows.) We can either give in to the bedsheets and adult Depends mentality, or live up to the fact that life is not secure. Ever.
I'm not changing my life a lot. I happen to live in a city that's pretty high on the murder count, year in and year out. Do I lock my doors? You betcha. Do I stop doing what brings me happiness in my life?
HELL NO!!!!!!!!
Now I will get off the political bus and get back to talking about arnines, LoV's, HiVs', flivers, and what have you as long as it's on flanged wheels.
And I sit in wonderment how we were able to live through the cold war with the threat of thousands of unannounced mushroom clouds surrounding us WITHOUT a change in color on the flagpole to warn us at ANY MOMENT. Somehow it's OK to be a chickensheet NOW. Then again, back during the cold war we had LEADERS, not these chickensheets ... agggh. I shaddup. :(
It's called courage - a basic human characteristic that people used to have, but which today is as scarce as hen's teeth (to continue with the chicken theme). World War II and the Cold War were the sort of things that could have scared the bejesus out of Americans, but people grit their teeth and got through. The 9/11 attacks, however, turned everyone into a pathetic bunch of cowards. Maybe we'd gotten too soft and couldn't take the shock to our systems. Whatever the case, it's pathetic.
Wish I knew the sliders in various pieces of equipment - alas, I had to earn a living and KNOW what I actually got paid to know, "television equipment" and politics ... at least there was a SCHEMATIC that was TRUTHFUL in ELECTRONICS. Even the PUNDITS can't show me a schematic that works for LAWGIVERS. :)
But it's a DAMNED shame that America has gone for the whole "you're gonna DIE unless you let the GOP protect you." ... I remember when the GOP ***CUT THE QWAP*** out of anti-terrorist agencies" (I was *INVOLVED* in it, and got cut loose due to tax-cut budget cuts) while Bubba was Predident ... "contract *ON* America" ... but if the demos have no balls, then who am *I*, a mere outraged citizen stuck among politicos with *NO* balls? Nope ... phuck America ... you believe it, you voted for it, you BOUGHT it ... at least *I* am WELCOME in Canada.
Sorry foer the attitude, but the "liberal media" is to blame for it all, they have no balls either. NY POST tells the truth, need say no more. :)
Once again, SORRY ALL ... if folks only KNEW the crap they were being sold ... "I assure you, there is a train RIGHT behind this one, bing phucking bong, HAVE a nice day." :(
I agree 100%. No, make that 101%.
Same for Arcadia ... LET'S GET REAL HERE ... NEW YORK CITY *IS* their PRIME TARGET ... and DESPITE how NYC voted, what the NYC attitude is, they're GOING TO phuck New York ... Shrub PHUCKED us worse than Usama! I *cannot* forgive the GOP for SHAFTING NYC even though anyone with half a brain (Ronnie Raygun might BE a vegetable, but he's STILL smarter than the REST of his par-tay) realizes that NYC will STILL be the focus of "let's crash a bimb-laden plane into ..."
PLEASE forgive my never-ending raspberries here, but *****WHY***** does NEW YORK CITY have to CONTINUE to pay the price for a Texas MORON? No personal offense intended, unfortunately reality remains an immovable object even IF the spinmeisters remain clueless. If DALLAS or HOUSTON were attacked, I'd end my comments in a FLASH.
Alas, "terrorists" have chosen BROOKLYN and MANHATTAN (and ONE plane for DeeCee) as their "targets" ... how DARE the GOP piss away money in Keokuk when NOTHING happened there? Might as well send troops to VOORHEESVILLE ... only difference is WE *got* guns, know how to aim them, and we KNOW who belongs here and who DOESN'T ... *NO* problem.
Forgive me if I recoil here - the DEMOS were morons ... that particular grade timer's STILL red and the repubs are about to "wrap it" on a red ... don't mind me, I've lived my life in political reporting as a certified "NON-partisan" ... I can't get OVER the stupidity in charge these days. How DID we survive the cold war? C'mon ... REALLY Bro, YOU were there for it ... how CAN you NOT call our "leader" a MORON? Even JOHNSON stood his ground. Even CARTER. :(
But this NONSENSE (I stayed silent during the "war") just irks me to NO END. All the things I heard on conservative TALK RADIO over "Clinton is taking away your freedoms" which did NOT come to pass suddenly *ARE* under the "Militia-approved New World Order administration." ... you know what I mean ... and here we are. :(
Meanwhile, your Sea Beach, and MY "favorite CITY" are left UNFUNDED by the "Bechtel Administration" ... *NO* jets to defend the Sea Beach, and yet DISNEY has cruise missiles on call 24/7 ... am *I* smoking the wrong chit? :)
Make that demanding a fair share of government spending for protection.
Tom
The PRIMARY duty of the federal government is to protect citizens from FOREIGN ENEMIES waging war, and to counter an attack on the land(s) of the United States. That's job number ONE. New York City was ATTACKED by a foreign enemy. The job of the police is to protect the citizenry from DOMESTIC criminal acts, not to act as a surrogate for the military. And yet here we are.
So, as I see it, either we should have MP's and regular army stationed to protect the infrastructure from these foreign enemies, or the federal government should "make whole" the costs of an unauthorized civilian paramilitary to do the job that our federal government should be doing. But what I see here is final proof that it's time to abolish the federal government because it's not doing its job with respect to protecting this country from a foreign enemy that is ON OUR SOIL.
Or at least, pay the bills if we have to do their job ourselves. :(
Ask Martin O'Malley, our Irish Rock Mayor. He's been down to the Halls three times to basicaly tweak Congrease to pay the fair share. If "Homeland Security" is a Fed idea, then why do the cities/states have to pay for HS stuff?
Tip O'Neill, God rest his soul, used to mention that ALL politics is local. Seems some of the bhoys in Congrease seem to have forgotten that.
Last time I looked, Immigration is a FEDERAL task. INS blew it big time with the slipshod policies that let bunches of foreigners in without bothering to check them. Profiling is bad, but last time I looked the guys who flew planes were not blond haired and blue eyed, and all were in a certain age group, so I see nothing wrong in restricting access to their ethnic group.
Rail comment:
The Low-V's were built by a bunch of builder, but all tended to look alike. Has anybody bothered to mention that WMATA's cars all look the same regardless of who made them?
Just a thought: Is somebody in WMATA's car department a reincarnated IRT man?
I just got back from driving around east Tennessee for a week and I see Dubya got it EXACTLY right. Those voters have had their schoolkids tie yellow ribbons on EVERYTHING. New Yorkers count for about NOTHING when you got TX and FL exporting (sometimes a few extra) electors. And we know now that New York's only profitable export is Pataki.
Until, that is, the oil starts to get expensive. Then the political equation could change in a hurry.
It's estimated that 5% of the fighting force were resident aliens
Don't confuse support for the troops as support for the president
But the oil is not going to get expensive thanks to Operation Iraqi Liberation. The grateful Iraqis will be happy to sell us as much oil as we want at the price we want to pay for it, and if necessary we will keep holding fair elections there until they agree to our price.
Tom
Gee, we vote 80% Democrat in every election. Gosh-golly, now why wouldn't Republicans want to send us any money? Waaaaaahhhh!!! *sniff* *sniff* It's not fair!!!
As long as NYC remains an automatic 80% Democrat vote, I fail to see any reason why Washington would want to send any money here. You can bitch, rant, and rave as loud as you want to. Here, have a loudspeaker, with a fresh pair of batteries. Holler your lungs out. It won't make any difference. Everyone who could possibly vote for a Democrat in NYC already does, so any more Democrat party proselytizing would have negligible impact.
You'd be very naive and foolish if you want to claim that sending a few bil-s to NYC would suddenly gain them a bunch of new fans here. The only time you'll see Washington or Albany spend any money on NYC is when it gives them some other political benefit. There's some mileage in being portrayed as helping NYC to recover, so that's why NYC got some bucks to rebuild downtown. But anything beyond that would be complete waste of money, as far Washington and Albany is cocnerned. They'd rather send that pile of cash someplace else where it CAN give them some political benefit.
You claim to have great political acumen. Here's a pop quiz for you. Here's one city where every election sees about 50% of your vote go your way, and the rest go to the other guy, with the outcome up for grabs each either. Here's another city where 80% of the vote always goes to the other guy, and your polls indicate that even Saddam Hussein would win over there, if the other party nominated him.
Now, you have a few billion dollars' worth of spare change in your pocket. Which city's going to get it?
You don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out.
When the OTHER party was in power, I could actually pay my bills on time. :(
But not to worry, the latest genius work out of the NeoCons is "states need to stop paying teachers such fat retirements" and is pushing the California legislature to "recapture inflated retirement funds" ... here in New York, they're already doing that. Like they say, a republican is a democrat that got mugged ... and as was the case before, democrats are former republicans that finally looked at their bank statement and 401K ... whoops, after adjustments, that's a 101K. :)
But no sense in arguing, it's off-topic as far as transit goes and republicans actually BELIEVE them windbags. And we wonder where MSS (Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf) got his training from. He would have been victorious if only he'd learned how to shout down the media when asked pesky questions. :)
I'd suggest that we tread lightly here - into the area of religion. I will make one comment on the subject as a Jew. The number of Jewish members of Congress is irrelavent to the discussion of israel. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are many Jews and jewwish sects that oppose the state of Israel on religious grounds. To assume that all Jews - deomcrat or Republican vote a particular way because they are Jews is prejudice. Jews no more vote in lock-step than any other ethnic or religious group.
Indeed, we probably vote less that way than any other. There's a reason for the old joke about two Jews and three opinions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But since your perspective is "a good Arab is a dead Arab," all your program guarantees us is more bloodshed. By your logic, telling a drunkard to ease off the bottle is a mortal sin. And, of course, anyone with a less pure ultra-right-wing philosophy is evil.
I'm not sure you really know what it means to be pro-Israel or not.
Getting just a little carried away there, Write-your-Congressman-Ron? Really, your on-topic posts read much, much better.
A left wing and right wing radical are basically the same. A conservative can get there as easy as a liberal.
There's a serious problem with that plan. Plainly speaking, I pay a considerable sum for my medical coverage. Despite this, my employer still pays the lion's share. The cost of the coverage not withstanding, there are treatments and benifits that my plan will not pay for. Does it not seem wrong that while I could not get those treatments, people who do not pay for healthcare, people who get healthcare through entitlement programs are entitled to those same treatments. Threatments that I pay for with my tax dollars. I, for one, resent paying for services for others that I am not entitled to.
Think I'm kidding? Ask your medical plan to pay for viagra or Rogaine or similar treatments. Mine won't but medicare has determined how many viagra pills the average male is ENTITLED to. Wanna buy viagra cheap? Hang out in front of a medicare drug mill. 20 & 30 year old 'patients' will gladly sell you their allotment. You are paying for this because of Democraticly sponsored entitlement programs.
To keep it topical, people in my neighborhood pay $12.25 one way to Penn Station on the LIRR (peak) or $8.25 off peak. I assume that most here would pay for the LIRR and the subway. However, if you are on medicare, your fare is much less than that. The fact is, we subsidize the transportation of those receiving medicare.
Heck, I get at least ten "Discount Viagra!" spams a week.
At any rate, I think you're confusing Medicare and Medicaid.
After all, can't have minority groups out childbirthing the GOP ... every sperm is sacred. :)
I'm not too sucessful with Rogaine but it would make Redbirds hair-eeryer.
NJ got caught using Medicare funds to transport handicapped students to school and have to pay it all back. Frelinghuysen Township has the highest per capita property taxes in NJ with no police/fire/hospital/librtayr/anything. Not even one fire hydrant.
Did your crew receive a visit from Ole Roger??? I got an hour of rest out of it but had to scramble doing 14 PCE trucks with the computer finishing at 1445 hrs. CI Peter
:-O
Andrew
Did you pay taxes for the lion's share your employer paid for your medical insurance?
Did you declare the consideral sum that you pay for you medical coverage as an income tax deduction?
Did your employer deduct the lion's share for you medical insurance as a business expense?
In point of fact, the current system of employer provided health insurance benefits amount to government subsidized health insurance. Why should such subsidies be restricted to a certain class of citizens, at the expense of the others. Do you subscribe to the Constitution's equal protection clause?
The cost of the coverage not withstanding, there are treatments and benifits that my plan will not pay for. Does it not seem wrong that while I could not get those treatments, people who do not pay for healthcare, people who get healthcare through entitlement programs are entitled to those same treatments
One part of the Clinton plan addressed this issue, if you remember. It set a standard for basic care. Any employer-sponsored benefits that exceeded this level would be treated as a taxable perk. BTW, the greater objection to this provision came from company executives. Their executive health insurance policies, covered far more than health insurance they provided their employees.
Threatments that I pay for with my tax dollars
I have the same gripe as somebody who has retired but is not yet eligible for Medicare. Part of the tax dollars that I pay on my unearned income is used to pay for your subsidized health insurance. My own health insurance payments are not subsidized to the same extent nor are the benefits likely to be as good. However, I believe that good health is good public policy. I don't begrudge my tax money being used to provide for health, even with the evils of a third party payment system. I do begrudge the private sector profiteers who are indirectly subsidized and rant against those who get direct subsidies. I say a war against hypocrisy.
Yikes, I agree with Bauman about something.
He's right about the indirect tax subsidies for private health care. On top of that, remember most health care spending is on the old and the disabled, and the government pays for most of that through Medicaid and Medicare.
In fact, as of the most recent copy of the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. I bought (2001, data earlier), the federal, state and local governments were already paying, directly and indirectly, for 70 percent! of third party (not out of pocket) health care expenditures. That share is going to go in one direction (up) as the nation ages. Rising private health care premiums increase the tax expenditure on those who are lucky enough to be insured.
The question is, why is there constant pressure to add more direct and indirect goverment spending for those who already have health care? What about the working poor, who lack health insurance, and the self-employed, who can't afford it? What about the children of such people They get nothing. But they do pay sales taxes to support Medicaid (no matter how poor they are) and FICA taxes for Medicare, at 2.9 percent of income for the self employed. MASSIVE generational equity issue.
There is a lot less of a generational inequity issue than you may suppose. The high cost of medical care usually wiped out a person's life savings before Medicare existed. Now, if one's parents accumulate a modest estate , there is a good chance that most of it will pass on to their children.
Then you have intra-generational inequities. Sounds like those whose parents do not have estates (or whose parents are not here, like the immigrants) are being forced to subsidize those whose parents do have estates. As it is, those who have their elderly parents move in with them and provide care are forced to subsidize those who have their elderly parents give them their money then go on Medicaid.
Unless one's parent winds up in a nursing home, without having had the opportunity to transfer assets prior to the statutory "look-back" period. Then it's adios estate.
At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, not to mention veering even further off-topic, I'll have to say that the real problem with health care spending is the excessive focus on costly, but ultimately futile end-of-life care. It's standard practice to spare no expense in prolonging the life of a dying aged person even though little extra life may be gained and the quality of life is nonexistent. I'm talking about such things as inserting a feeding tube to prolong the "life" of an incontinent, immobile 85-year-old with Alzheimer's. Maybe the person will live a few more months. For what point? Lest there be any misunderstanding, I'm not advocating Kevorkian-style euthanasia, but merely a recognition that heroic life-prolonging treatments often do more harm than good.
It was ENTIRELY during Clinton's time that the US economy had its huge boom, and yet this is "Clinton's" recession.
I say it's Nixon's recession, makes just about as much sense blaming it on him as on Clinton.
Clinton was a very effective and pragmatic executive who knew how to work well with either party in Congress. He knew when to leave something alone, when to put the brakes on some dimwitted scheme the Republican majority would bring to the table (and some definitely were, although others were reasonable); everybody gets some credit for how we did, of course. He was a team player, and Congressional leaders knew it.
A trivial non-issue, frankly. He left Alan Greenspan alone to do what Greenspan felt was best; he let agency heads to their jobs (unlike Bush, who has basically tried to micromanage all of them). If he had a weakness, it was foreign policy, but that didn't keep him from being reelected.
Nobody's perfect. The problem wasn't Lewinsky; the problem was, he lied about it. If he had just said "Yeah I slept with her. Sorry about that." and his wife had just come out and said "Yeah, he slept with her. Big deal. It's a family problem, and we'll take care of it," nobody would have cared.
I don't care about it either frankly.
But it's Twiddledee and Twiddledum: a.k.a. Paturkey and Doomberg that's SCREWING THE WORKING CLASS OF NYC. Pataki coud've done something to the fare hike if he wanted to. Doomberg just wants to raise taxes on everything. Pretty soon, there will be a tax just for using your vocal chords.
Don't mind me - I've gone over the top today as far as lying republicans when I found out that more than a third of my retirement fund went byebye when KMart decided to just cancel the stock we held without even a vote, nothing. Seems Shrub changed the rules for corporate conduct while we were distracted looking for Saddam. :(
PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?
WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate Security
Council resolutions.
PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation
of more security council resolutions than Iraq.
WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could
have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun
could well be a mushroom cloud over New York.
PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
nuclear weapons.
WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.
PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking
us or our allies with such weapons.
WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.
PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves, didn't
we?
WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has
an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early
Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry
lunatic murderer.
PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?
WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the
one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.
PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador
to Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?
WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell
its biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden himself
released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a
partnership between the two.
PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?
WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on
the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be
a partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.
PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?
WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell
presented a strong case against Iraq.
PN: He did?
WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in
Iraq.
PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?
WM: And a British intelligence report...
PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
paper?
WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...
PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?
WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...
PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans
Blix?
WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be
revealed because it would compromise our security.
PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?
WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find
evidence. You're missing the point.
PN: So what is the point?
WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security Council
will become an irrelevant debating society.
PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security Council?
WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.
PN: And what if it does rule against us?
WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.
PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?
WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.
PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us even after we gave them tens of
billions of dollars.
WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.
PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.
WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will
by electing leaders to make decisions.
PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?
WM: Yes.
PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
Supreme C...
WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they
were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about
being a patriot. That's the bottom line.
PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?
WM: I never said that.
PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.
PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.
WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.
PN: You know this? How?
WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
unaccounted for.
PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?
WM: Precisely.
PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to
an unusable state over ten years.
WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.
PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we
must invade?
WM: Exactly.
PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach
the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND
threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.
WM: That's a diplomatic issue.
PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?
WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving,
and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.
PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.
WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.
PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?
WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.
PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way
we live?
WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.
PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called
on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face
the consequences.
PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find
a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?
WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?
WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?
WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?
WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.
PN: In which case?
WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.
PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at
all?
WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.
PN: That makes no sense.
WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with
all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their
wine and cheese, no doubt about that.
PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.
Yes, there were some bad missteps.
You're a pretty good back seat driver, there.
Let's see, a Train Dude Administration:
-Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq would be neutered
-All Muslims in the US would be in concentration camps (for their own safety, of course)
-Income taxes would be eliminated and only consumption taxes would be levied, so those of us earning more than $100,000 a year could stop subsidizing the poor unworthy poor
-The MTA would become a road-building entity, because Train Dude's Transportation Secretary would elkiminate the word "subway" from the vocabulary (goes with the territory)
-The NRA would have absolute veto power over all Justice Dept. appointments
Sound good? When are you running, Train Dude?
That would be nice. Trouble is, his political bedfellows wouldn't go for it.
But hope springs eternal.
Why don't you give give yourself two "good posts", take a couple of Tylenol and lie down.
Ilike your line, BTW. May it be resurrected in the glory of the Manny B. Peaxce be unto you under its majestic girders.
It isn't personal, Train Dude. It's all business. I predict what you would do. If you would do differently, that's cool. How is that a personal attack?
"As for the other points, well you don't really know Dude that well and that's all I have to say about the matter."
The trouble is, I know him very well. Too well.
Unfortunately, prior to the attack on New York, how many would have believed that so-called suicide attacks would have occurred would occur in the U.S.A.? Calling them "suicide" attackers or bombers is incorrect. They are best referred to as what they are, homicide bombers, as multiple first-degree homicide is their main intent and the result of their actions. They are mass murderers in the first degree.
Pres. Bush has got it right and he wasn't even elected by majority vote: Bring them to justice or if that's impossible then bring the justice to them.
All that said and for all of his outbursts, #4 Sea Beach Fred's heart is in the right place, so I give him a lot of slack. Besides, he knows that if it was up to me, with both sides of the MB open, I'd send his train over the bridge.
No, suicide bomber works. Homicide bomber is redundant. What kind of bomber doesn't want to go out and kill? Suicide bomber describes someone who kills himself to kill.
Midnight terrorist these are terrorist who bomb symbolic targets in the middle of the nigh so that no one is hurt.
Not in the days of "Murderers' Row."
Tom
Where IS Osama anyway?
I've gone out of my way to avoid the spouting of a few, but this morning's propaganda has gone WAY over the top ...
I contend that whoever is in the White House has little to do with the economic well being of the country.
All that Republican GOP money still hasn't been invested heavily on you Slum-Beach line, just a signal overhaul, that's about it.
But hey, if you're living on Halliburton, Enron or Bechtel dividend checks, you'll pay NOTHING in taxes. And they're ALL subway vendors, so look at it as the reason why the Metrocard costs more. If you're a republican, it really *IS* a fun pass and nobody down. Except them swine who live on welfare or WORK for a living. SCROO THEM! :(
Beam me up Scotty!!!
Yes, as a matter of fact. Reagan himself was forced to admit that the economy reeked to high heaven the first few years of his administration.
"Cut the crap Bob."
Maybe it would be better if you checked your own facts prior to posting.
I did check it out. Reagan created huge deficits through extravagant spending at the same time he pushed through tax cuts, which had nothing to do with inflation. Reagan inherited half of it, then created the rest.
You do some homework.
Tawana Brawley - Ambassador to Fantasyland or even Secretary of the Interior (of plastic bags).
Louie Farahkan - Ambassador to Israel
Clinton could be the Ambassador to the Southern States
Al Gore could be his runnin' mate
Where was he when the fare was going up? Does he know it would be a regressive hike that hits hardest on the poor and working class?
But there were other ways to accomplish those goals, and economic prosperity came, in part, in spite of Reagan, not 100% because of him. He did some heads-up things, and he screwed up saome things too. Bush I was worse on domestic issues and the economy, and that got him kicked out of office after only one term.
Now you know the facts, too.
A Fantasy History of the United States, by SeaBeach Fred.
You know, Fred, instead of postring bull like that, you could crack a book open yourself once in a while.
No, Bush Sr. LIED about telling the American People to read HIS lips. Also in reference to the Democrats convincing him, all he had to do was to do what his predecessor's wife did, "JUST SAY NO".
Look at what happend to another Republican, Nixon and the fallout from the break-in at Watergate.
At least the asprin factory was closer to chemical weapons than anything the shrub destroyed in Iraq. :-)
Tom
You're right, Train Dude. Bill should at least have let Hilary aim the missiles. Her aim was much better.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Peace,
ANDEE
And don't expect to ever catch hilarious Hillary riding the subway. You can imagine the consternation if I boarded the Sea Beach at 36th Street in Brooklyn and saw her on my train. My reaction? Don't ask!!!
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/index.asp
Enjoy. :)
Yes, but did he have any faults? :-)
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
So why exactly did you choose to pull this thread up? What little game are you playing here with this one?
AEM7
A quiet word from your boss that your activities have been noticed and will hurt you in your next performance review will do wonders to someone's exercise of their First Amendment rights to free speech.
Take a look at bryan1945's posts 496040 and 497900. It looks like cause and effect to me.
I used to think that this business of MTA supervision monitoring Subtalk was paranoid baloney, but not after what happened with bryan1945.
It's a very strange world of work, in the public sector. When you're dishing out services, inevitably some people will complain, because some people will get the shaft in favor of others who are more needy. The irony is that the powers that be wants those people to get the shaft without noticing that they've been shafted. This is why organized government doesn't work -- you need a way of distributing resources that carries all the information: and that's called $. If you had $2 taken away from you, you notice, because you're now $2 poorer than you were.
Take a look at bryan1945's posts 496040 and 497900. It looks like cause and effect to me.
Yeah, that does seem an unwise move. I suspect he probably moved on since then.
I used to think that this business of MTA supervision monitoring Subtalk was paranoid baloney, but not after what happened with bryan1945.
I still wonder why they have to be so secretive. It's not like NYCTA needs bipartisian support. I don't feel that it's the duty of the transit authority to preserve its authority, and if people want to shoot down the TA for trying stuff, they should try to live in a New York without the TA...
Their concern is understandable. But telling someone who was mildly critical (nothing really serious) to stop posting, which is what looks like happened to bryan1945, is very dismaying.
But yeah, these NWO cronies have now given us "Vaterland Sicherheit" (google those words as your history assignment for today from Unca Selkirk) and as a FORMER Republican, they can kiss my coupler. :)
Check my comments in the "George Will on Amtrak" threads if you will about where I'm coming from. We're LOSING our freedoms and our sanity and it's scaring my teat off. How DARE our "servants" take their revenge out on *US* when it was THEY (our party) who screwed up in the first place by cutting funding for CIA/FBI/INS SO drastically for dubious purposes which directly lead to those towers falling. And they have the AUDACITY to come after *US*?!?!?!?!?
You BETCHA I'm in a foul mood over this all, but Train Dude's CONTINUING silence after several of us have emailed him only CONFIRMS the madness. I hate to see someone who has been SO involved here silenced. GOOD NEWS is, according to my sources with NWI (NewsWorld International) ... Train Dude is *NOT* in Guantanamo. YET. Whew. :(
The First Amendment does not bar your employer from appropriately and correctly sanctioning you because of confidential information you chose to make public.
The First Amendment also does not bar your employer from inappropriately and incorrectly sanctioning you because of non-confidential information you chose to make public.
Employment is generally "at will" unless a union contract says otherwise, or discrimination on certain specified grounds occurs.
I doubt that either Train Dude or bryan1945 has ever released confidential information on Subtalk.
These are republican times. Hitler would have been PROUD. :(
Seriously bro ... NY is under PERPETUAL "Orange" (and I don't mean TUSTIN) ... NY *has* become a police state ... aside from here, where we always WERE a police state. :)
But that's OK ... I ain't black, ain't muslim, ain't gay and ain't a gypsy OR a Catholic (well, yes I am, but I deny it to live in peace) ... they ain't come for ME yet ... so it's OK. :(
His most recent beating involved a page that said nothing but "bump" just so a post from this thread could end up in the index. Why didn't you respond to that?
-Stef
Afterwards a walk of the Bay Ridge up to the hi-level platform was in order. (Took some pictures at the tunnel portal).
We parted company about 10:30 am, I going to grab a late breakfast and the Twin Forks crew went on to Dunton (Jamacia Yard) for an appointment to acquire parts from scrapped LIRR cars over there.
I picked up a quick Mickey D's breakfast during which I got a call from Mark W. alerting me that the SMEEs exited the tunnel portal onto the New Lots structure. So I got back into my car and drove over to Livonia & Snediker Avenues for an unobstructed view of the EL from the street. Waited a few minutes and sure enough the Redbirds FLEW passed me like a steel bat outta hell (was only able to snap off a couple of shots).
Of course I HAD to say hello to my fellow SubTalkers and Branfordites once the excursion made the Junius Street stop. The TSS-in-Charge was good enough to 'crew-door me' at Franklin so I could doubleback to ENY for my car.
It was good to see you Stef, as well as Mr. T, Allan Aron, Conrad Misek, Doug Carrier (both of Seashore) and the other asorted ERA and Branford regulars. I even heard that Dennis Riga was there! Is this true???
-Stef
--Mark
C'mon Fred, that doesn't fully explain the poor academic performance of California students. :-)
Tom
Look, Fred, you've got a bias there that the Congressional record isn't going to fully support. The basic facts are correct, but incomplete to the question, and as to who convinced whom and whose fault it was, well, the Democrats have as mmuch legitimately to claim as you do.
I'm not a registered Democrat by the way.
All kidding aside, Fred, we have acid tongues to match. I want you to keep posting and keep Subtalk as lively as it is. If you think Democrats are the root of all evil, so be it. If some of us (not me) think the Slum-Beach line should be replaced by rickshaws charging $5 per ride, so be it.
And take care of the Brooklyn BMT for us.
Actually, it was President Eisenhower who initiated military assistance to South Viet Nam after the defeat of the French in 1954. But like the U-2, it was not something mentioned in polite society. The military advisors dressed in civilian clothes in Saigon, and wore no U.S. insignia in the field. Kennedy expanded the numbers when the original commitment was not effective.
Tom
In the daily news, today, a reader wrote that the reason President Bush could fly a military jet was because he "hid out in the air national guard instead of fighting for his country". Yes, this night be so. He should have fought for his country like his predecessor. Oooops, did I say that?
Look what happened last year in the Gubernatorial Election in Florida. Jeb Bush cleaned the Democrat's clock in the race by 14%.
And, by the way, your pal Robert Byrd made a complete ass of himself with that self serving monologue about the President landed on the AC. All he needed was his KKK uniform to make the opera-bouffe a complete farce. Your boys are a sad and sorry lot. BTW, your sheets are ready.
And the NY Post PREMATURELY delcared Bush the winner (BUSH WINS) in their usual front page of sin, despite it being correct after the Supreme Court said THE HELL with the American People let's do OUR voting.
Nah, they just knew in advance ;^)
The fact is Gore lost. More importantly - Gore threw in the towel. Based on the performance of the previous administration, in which Mr. Gore played a minor role, we were fortunate to have a real president when this nation was attacked. Of course, some of you have short memories. It was Al Gore who stated that Sen. Byrd was his greatest inspiration in his life (or words to that effect). A man who idolizes a former Klan Kleagel, as president of this nation? Are you sure you really want to go there? Stick to trains, Kool!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
I see at least 20 threads about transit, many with contributions by notorious Democrats, that have been active today.
The trouble is it's easy to overlook those threads with all the political postings filling up the board.
---Choo Choo
You should therefore assume that what you said was so complete that there was nothing that could be added, so clear that no one had any questions about it, and so persuasive that no one could possibly disagree with what you said. Pat yourself on the back!
Tom
Arti
I want to hear about a tunnel rat finding a station made of gold....
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
I couldn't resist....
How stupid are you? We've already established (in a post by me, responding to you) that there aren't even that many voters in the entire Florida Panhandle.
Even though I went through this a year ago, and you'll probably ignore this again and spout the same lies a year later.
According to the 2000 Census, there were 671,445 persons aged 18-years or older in the 10 Florida counties in the Panhandle.
According to your logic, fully a 3rd of these people waited at home for the last of 15 or so hours that the polls are open, and immediately decided not to go when the TV told them not to. Does that make any sense to you?
In any event, only 180,221 registered voters in all 10 counties did not turn out to vote. This comprises 67.32% turnout among registered voters, consistent with Florida statewide statistics of 70% for that election that year.
2000 Florida CST election resultsCountyPopulation over 18BushGoreOtherTurnoutRegisteredAbsent
Bay112575386371885020335952064.179274933229Calhoun999628732155228525672.6672341978Escambia2251397302940958715412114170.8417100449863Gulf1043735462389630656566.1699233358Holmes1427949852154402754173.09103172776Jackson363069138686814641747072.87239736503Okaloosa128365520431692425457151264.2411132039808Santa Rosa86474362481279516415068465.167777827094Walton318061217656377241853765.86281449607Washington1606849832796574835358.18143586005Totals6714452376581115261739536657967.32546800180221
Sources: United States Bureau of Census, Census 2000: American Factfinder; Florida Department of State: Election Statistics, 2000.
Apparantly somebody wants to keep them for "history".
I submit that Florida could have made a mint selling them on eBay.
After all, we've seen Radio Shack selling a much rebuilt Washinton PCC and tokens, so why not all those chads?
and, it is true that the number of Florida ballots in storage is equal to the total of posts on Hippos and 76th Street?
Inquiring Mimes want to know.
Maybe it's because these attacks occured on American Soil. It really does amaze me how scared these people are though. Tall buildings and airplanes seem to be a combination that won't happen again, yet people are terrified to work at the 60th floor. It amazes me. But personally, i don't allow crap like that to get me shook up. Still do what I want.
I object to that broad statement. Keeping it On Topic, ain't the trains and buses still full? Streets fulla people, stores, bars, it's all going on. Most people aren't as you describe. Time goes on and things settle. I personally think most potential "foreign terrorists" who are thinking about their brand of evil don't take into consideration the seductive allure of the common American society. Call me simplistic, call me naieve, whatever. But I think the first three thoughts that pop into these guys minds when they get here are
1. "Damn, look at the women they got here!"
2. "Damn, look at the McDonalds they got here!"
3. "Damn, they got toilet paper here!"
This is some very STRONG juju. I think of it as at least causing doubt in the minds of most of these devils. Of course, it's not foolproof, nor does it help for native boy wonders. But it is a part of our strength. Us home growns forget how Disney-like it all is to most of the world.
We're cautious now, not cowards. We'll deal with it.
Okay. I'm not gonna get outta line here. But I've grown up with many "foreigners". I've seen what happens when people outside of our "culture" become exposed to it. My honest opinion: We will never become like Israel or Europe regarding terrorism. That's all I'm gonna say; I don't want to jinx things. But you wanna consider my thoughts "silly" it's okay by me. But I too have personal connections to that murderous attack on us.
BTW: I have not received any e-mail from you.
I don't see any problem with insulting foreign countries if you avoid insulting the people.
One partial explanation for the flat ridership could be explained by the driving restrictions around lower and midtown Manhattan. But even with the relaxation of the driving regulations, ridership on mass transit did not dip and there was not a mass exodus to autos.
If TD is stressed out from this particular Subtalker(s) and other elements on the outside, he should just ignore them and if he's really stressed he should just take a break form this board PLAIN & SIMPLE!
When I was practicing, my office would sometimes try to find federal claims when we were suing New York State or the City. It was always a tradeoff: state judges tended to be more sympathetic to our claims, but the government didn't get an automatic stay if we got a federal injunction.
Apologies for my political rants when I do them, but they ARE related to transit. Whether the direct link is those who control the funding, or those who make the rules, or those who BENEFIT from scraing us out of our teat so we won't RIDE the subway and take a cab instead. If it were my PURPOSE to engage in politicospeak, I could go on and on on thousands of details not related to transit far more condemning on more substantive issues. THIS ain't the place for any of that.
But the politicos DO control the ENTIRE game, and while we argue over loose bolts and lockwashers and where they're located, or WHERE the P train terminates today, the entire transit system we all love, appreciate and depend on is ENTIRELY owned by our politicos and the particular mood swing and photo op that attracts them today. Strappies TOO is a "political entity" ... if you're into PUBLIC TRANSIT, there's no escaping the political angles, they dictate the realities we all discuss.
Sorry for the lecture, I put in MORE time in "politics" than railroading or anything else ... railroading (even on museum trackage) *is* politics. The anointed MAKE the rules ... and they change them faster than some of our compatriots change their ... ahem ... undergarments. :)
I *sat* through all of that. Every session, every "Hear ye hear ye" ... I also was hooked up with the "Legislative Bill Drafting Commission" and other inbred nonsense. My chuckle of the last 26 hours I've been awake was a contact from a Westchester county newspaper (A "daily") asking me if I could get them a copy of the BUDGET which was passed yesterday afternoon. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... it won't even be PRINTED until the night before the vote. Oh, if people only knew that the MTA was a "BENEVOLENT DESPOT" compared to those we re-elected who blew genuine Arnine "blue smoke" up our collective butts. Hahahahahahahaha ...
Don't mind me, y'all KNOW how Selkirk gets when he's too punchy from too much email and too much code-writing ... when I'm struggling to wake up (whatever time) I hit subtalk and post until I'm semi-conscious. When I feel the sleepies coming on and have gotten home, post some more nonsense. Well ... bedtime I s'pose. :)
But suffrage of those who are "appointed" to a civil service title and KNOW what picking up the soap is REALLY LIKE (and you'd BETTER "fake it" buddy when the politico ... uh ... stains the floor) can attest that all I say can be corroberated ... once again to ALL, sorry for bringing up politics once again, but everything RAPID TRANSIT as well as ANY OTHER railroad is ENTIRELY politics ... and when a politician sneezes, everyone up and down the chain of "command, this is 0730 Brighton, I need a push" has to take "personal time" ... I apologize once again to anyone who feels that my political comments are off-topic. While I may inject an opinioin here and there with my rantings, the underlying truth *IS* on topic. :(
He called today with this information. The two subway cars on flatcars that are shown in the catalog are actual cars that can be pulled in a train on their own wheels and will light up. Since they are Premier models, there will be two number choices on both the red R-17 and the R-17 rider car.
I wonder if the rider car will be available in the original two numbers, RD339 & 36740. 36740 was the number of the rider car in the work train set that everyone felt bad about not being able to purchase separately. MTH would not commit as to what the two numbers would be.
I'm surprised, MVM's give them as change. Here's a picture of one.
BTW, does anyone know if Boston accepts them yet?
People can always use the "UTT" on the bus.
Mark
Another movie I can think of shot there was the scene in coming to America. R32 or R38 train signed as an "E" train in that special Grafitti paint job.
Thats why on the southboud track, the nameplates on the wall are so random.
Hoyt is the budget location on the Subway as it requires the least amount of work from the MTA to provide it. Shows with a little more $$ or a little more clout (like Law and Order) can shoot in actual locations. Some movies, like The Warriors, shoot in Hoyt and real locations like 96th St. (standing in for Union Sq I believe). The Movies section of www.nycsubway.org has more complete information.
Erm, this is the show that tried to pass off PATH WTC as a subway station, and a PA-1 as an A train....
I don't have a great problem with these "foamers". They're doing what interests them or comforts them. They may be very limited in how they are leading their lives, but it's their life. They're doing something.
There is another class of foamer, which I call the message board foamer. They fill this message board daily with 500 to 1000 posts talking about transit.
I think it's the message board foamers that give the railfan window foamers a bad name.
My remarks are not meant to be a subtle attack on any one person here. They are meant as an attack on everyone here.
My remarks are not meant to be a subtle attack on any one person here. They are meant as an attack on everyone here.
Yes, everybodys posts combined equal roughly 500 to 1000, so it was easy to figure out.
And in a way, you're right. On this site, people bicker and fight, Bitch and moan, Whine and complain. Out on trains people just enjoy the ride. Personally, I don't have that kind of time, and I enjoy discussing the future routing and construction of the subways.
Watch out if you're attacking me. We might have to meet somewhere for a "simple chat." ;-)
wayne
Heypaul, I like your stuff.
Bryan
I'd say foamers are pretty much ON topic.
Mind ya, we LOVE our trains whenever we get to play with them, but railroads, choochoos and where the SEABEAST runs consumes LESS than 0.0005% of our "reality" ... sure, when it comes to choochoos that ARe subways, we're into our own buzz ... but we get a BETTER buzz looking out the bedroom window and watching the bunnies on the lawn DO what bunnies are noted for. Folks who ONLY get into how many TPH occurs at a station they don't LIVE at are the ones who need to a$$ki$$ "Doctor Phil" ... for the rest of us, watching the sun rise and blessing the cab WHEREVER we are ... well ... "priceless." :)
No, but it is probably somewhere near Uxbridge at the end of the Piccadilly line. :-)
Tom
If ONLY! More like 100 on-topic posts and 900 posts about
politics, religion, general world events or personal feuds.
Added to the fact that DF is on the right of the pol spectrum, so no balanced coverage there.
This is why I used to post the entire article, but NOOOO, people just bitched at me.
Added to the fact that DF is on the right of the pol spectrum, so no balanced coverage there.
True, but if I posted articles from "Concrete & Asphalt" or "Destination Oil Dependence and SUV Isolation" nobody here would read them. This is a pro-transit message board, it would be stupid to post anti-transit news sources just for the sake of balance.
D/F presents a wide range of issues that deserve discussion here on SubTalk and would otherwise get no play.
Now then, since he seems to be in a digging up garbage mood, what about that time he made derogatory remarks about people who work low paying jobs (likening them to prision inmates) and then refused to explain himself when I pointed this out? He also called me a jackass, as well as a few other things, and then said that I was immature and that he and others should no longer respond to my postings. That describe a 'stand-up guy' to you Fred?
Even when someone says somthing mistakenly, they should at least apologize. If someone does not agree with them, there's no need to refer to them as assholes, or the myriad other terms that he has used for those who disagree with him.
I'm quite surprised to see dear ole CC calling his recent medical
situation "this crap".
If it's crap you say, then crap it is/was. (odd.)
There's a flaw in your logic, who is giving the bad name? If you are referring to the general public, the MB foamers can't give foamers in general a bad name because the general public would never in a billion years ever read into a subway message board enough to develop a bad opinion. However, they do run into window foamers on a regular basis in the real world. The only people in a position to give foamers a bad name are the RFW foamers.
That is really strange. I make compressor sounds, and even dynamic break sounds (you know, the MBTA 01800 makes those miuuuuuuuuuu whine because of the changing frequency in the thrystor-choppers). I also make animal sounds in the company of my friends, in public, and they are always embarrassed. I just don't quite get it.
But I have never been too interested in looking out the front car window, or drool over track diagrams that some people do...
I'm weird.
AEM7
Many (25-50) R-1-9 rollsigns (Front and side)
Several (15-25) "D-type" signs (Front and side)
20+ BMT Standard rollsigns
Several (25-50) assorted other signs (R-10, R-12, R-16, etc.)
Whistles (5-10)
Air Gauges (5-10)
An inventory check is ongoing. I will post any other news as I get it.
-Mark
If anyone is interested in donating any of the above listed items, Please contact me. This year, Things are happening that have not happened in 20+ years (R-9 trip, SMEE trip) this theft is a MAJOR setback for all of us.
How often were the museum cars inventoried? Could this have been an ongoing process?
I then remembered this post from back in May that there was stuff stolen....perhaps I'm just a tad suspicious....but I've seen similarities between what was listed as stolen, and the items I've seen on eBay. I wouldn't mind a few of you just checking eBay for yourself and see what you think. Perhaps you may have already noticed and this is old news...but just thought I'd mention it.
Go to eBay, and do a search for "SUBWAY ROLL SIGN". Pick any of them, and check the "Seller's other auctions"....you'll see the other stuff he has. Click on the number next to the sellers name (150), to see his feeback rating...you can click on any item number to see the stuff he's previously sold.
From the previous post, here's what was listed as stolen....I've seen MANY of these items...
> Many (25-50) R-1-9 rollsigns (Front and side)
> Several (15-25) "D-type" signs (Front and side)
> 20+ BMT Standard rollsigns
> Several (25-50) assorted other signs (R-10, R-12, R-16, etc.)
> Whistles (5-10)
> Air Gauges (5-10)
Your thoughts??
One of the feedbacks says "Great contractor too!"... So he's a CONTRACTOR!!
Did this guy get hired as a CONTRACTOR for TA and not get paid what was promised?
Items "recently found in STORAGE" (which is how CIY kept them).
You INVESTIGATORS can all draw your lines from there...
Good points, Tedd... IAWTP.
If this does turn out to be the "ill gotten booty"....how do you go about reclaiming the stuff?
Honestly, I really miss seeing the R40 slants on the (L). It's hard to believe they disappered so quickly.
David
1) Was this new rules every posted anywhere on the trains or station? If so then how can a blind man read this?
2) Who get the extra $0.25 that the C/R now has? I mean the pouch ticket dose not have a place to say they were charged extra money because there were no given coins for change. So does the MTA get it which is unfair or does the C/R pocket it, which is also unfair?
Robert
On Board Trains
Peak one-way, off-peak one-way, and off-peak round-trip tickets may be purchased on board trains at a cost of $2.75 to $3.50 more if ticket machines are available or the ticket office at your boarding station is open one half-hour prior to the scheduled departure. This higher on-board fare does not apply to senior citizens, people with disabilities, Medicare customers, or customers boarding at stations without a ticket office/ticket machine. Cash only; no bills over $50.
So it looks like the conductor should not have rounded up for the blind guy.
Thanks for the help.
Robert
How can they no longer carry coins if this is still in effect?
Excerpt from MTA rules:
Seniors and People with Disabilities
For individuals 65 years of age or older, as evidenced by a Medicare card, driver’s license, birth certificate, or MTA Reduced-Fare MetroCard presented at time of ticket purchase or use. Good all times except weekday morning westbound peak trains.
If he has a reduced fare card, it's not the conductor's job to figure out whether he has engaged in chicanery to get it.
How about the peak step-up charged when an off-peak ticket is used on a peak train?
In other words, if you have a $5.25 zone 4 off-peak ticket but use it on a peak train, will the step-up be $2.50 (peak fare is $7.75) or $5.75 (onboard peak fare is $11.00) or even $6.00 (no coins)?
How about the step-up charged when using a ticket for a shorter ride on a longer journey?
If you use the same zone 4 ticket for zone 7 travel, will the step-up be $0.75 (zone 7 off-peak fare is $6.00) or $3.75 (zone 7 onboard off-peak fare is $9.00) or $4.00 (no coins)?
In the past, the on-board purchase surcharge would apply to neither of these situations. Under the old policy, the step-ups above would only be $2.50 and $0.75, respectively. Has this changed?
It's obvious that they're trying to eliminate the handling of coins on board, but as long as step-ups are honored, they can't do it without getting messy and unfair.
Mark
2) I think the conductor pocketed the 25 cents.
Depends. If the receipt says $4 (I realize the blind guy can't check, but someone else can), then the LIRR has gotten an extra $.25 in revenue because the conductor didn't have change and didn't give the correct reason for failing to give change.
If the receipt says $3.75, the conductor stole the money and is guilty of petty larceny (not that it's provable at this point, but he's guilty anyway).
Obviously if the passenger has the correct change there is no problem if the conductor does not have change. The problem was the LIRR not giving advance notice that conductors no longer carried change for a dollar.
Tom
I don't know if that's LIRR policy, but I can speak for myself as well as many other NJ Transit trainmen and say that we do the money transaction first, THEN cut the ticket. This is because there were countless times when a passenger changes their mind and wants a one way instead of a round trip or vice versa, or they want to go to Elizabeth instead of Newark, etc. Of course we could tell such a passenger "too late, we cut the ticket already", but if they didn't pay yet, they don't care. It would just mean possible police activity if they refuse to pay at that point. Which is why we get the money first, then cut the ticket. Then, we can say it's too late if they change their mind, and we already have the money.
NJT's policy of charging passengers the $5 service charge is soaring high compared to MNRR's and LIRR's penalties for purchasing tickets on board trains if no prior opportunity to buy tickets was available at their boarding station. Does NJT really need all this money gained from service charges?
Actually, we usually STAND and cut tickets, but that's another story...
Anyway, in my humble opinion (and I know Railfan Pete will probably disagree), the surcharge from places like New York, Newark Penn, and Hoboken should be raised to $10, while the surcharge from outlying stations should be reduced to something like $1 or $2. The reason being that at the major stations, there are umpteen TVM's as well as many agents available. At places like Westfield or Aberdeen-Matawan, for example, there are only 2 machines and no agents after the morning rush. At times after the morning rush, those stations can get pretty crowded, and sometimes there are just too many people for only 2 machines.
Especially when the machines won't take debit/credit cards, only cash, as I've come to expect from the two machines at Little Silver. I've only once managed to use a debit card from there... otherwise it's been "cash only", due to communications line problems with the machines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many "odd-ball" TVM's does NJT have like the one mentioned above? And how many in different layouts? (i.e. missing BILL SLOT)
Also, what are the lighted messages and what colors are they? I know one of them is "No bills accepted" in white in red. What is/are the other one(s)?
Does the machine itself change the dispay (not lighted) of OPEN (green)? What is the message in red (or dark orange)? On the older TVM's that NJT used to have, the orange represented "Exact fare - no change given". This was misleading, as I stood in horror at viewing this message while I payed in cash, but was relieved when the coins started spitting out. If it is manually changed, who changes them?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
NOTE: I like the colored effect over the black-and-white on the older TVM's. The front has F40PH2CAT #4118 (correct me if incorrect) in beautiful, accurate colors, but I forgot the second rotating design.
I don't know about the rotatings designed for the color screens, but the Black & White ones had it alternate between 4118 and Comet II 5135.
Now I realize some wiseass passenger could have paid a $9 ticket with quarters, but if that had happened he could have then given the blind man his quarter.
I wouldn't mind mints at least...
Here's the NYTimes article. As always, you need to register. It is free though.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/03/nyregion/03RIDE.html
Interesting thought though ... if the state really CARED about making the MTA a PROFIT making concern for the state teat, then they'd install KENO on the digital roll-signs, section off unused cabs and rent them out to hookers, use a trunk-based "bar car" employee to sell beers, install wagering on platforms as to whether the next arriving train is a 4 or a 5, double or nothing if it's a diverted 6, and a grand prize payoff if it's a number 2 owing to a blockage. What are the odds that some Looto player would hit on a #2 arriving at GCT southbound at 3:14pm? Why the odds would approach that of the LOTTERY! :)
But if the state wants to open up Video gambling, they might as WELL hire hookers and open state-run crack houses. Imagine SCRATCH-OFF METROCARDS!!! Ladies and germs, I rest my case. Heh.
Get 3 tokens and win a Weekly! But watch out for those lemons...
I tell ya though, if they went for the "hooker" idea, I'd bring my handles and keys and spend some money in "Fun City." Heh. Just call me "Bender" ...
Oh yeah, mandatory "on topic" ... wonder if the hooker's cab would be bigger or smaller on the N train, and whether the rathole or the bridge would make it bigger without having to reply to a spammer. :)
I mighta been ABLE to handle the morons if I'd toked up. Heh.
Even IF the token's gone, why NOT "a token and a dream" ... now that the MTA metal is gone, who'd actually HAVE sufficient command of the English language to equate "TOKEN" with "Tokin'"? :)
PLACE yer bets ... find the queen, find the queen ... GAMBLING is NYS' *FUTURE* ... PLACE YER BETS ... D train or A train ... the holding lights are LIT, no more wagering, please ... AND THEY'RE OFF!
(how much NOW would you expect to pay, but wait ... you'll ALSO get the fabulous WIND CHIMES!)
HOOKERS AND KENO! Watch the CLOSING doors ...
The subway dosen't need food service as on many platforms there are Newsstand brand news stands that sell a wide variety of food items. I also think that there is some place that sell Gyros and they are pre-made and waiting so people can jump out of the stopped train, grab a Gyro and then get back on the train b4 the doors close.
David
No Eating
No Drinking
No Radio Playing
(.....could be I've mistaken MTA for Bee-Line)
No Littering/Smoking/Spitting/Radio Playing
on NYCT, at least.
David
Chuck Greene.
Yeah, and think of the money that could be saved by not printing those useless maps!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Once again their is no evidence the MTA cooked the books. Hevesi's own audit did not state the MTA cooked the books. His flashy headline implied they did using terminology like "two sets of books" to mislead the public. Read the entire document, he presented no evidence of cooked books. Beccause there was none that was evident.
If you read the audit you would know that. Standard and poors reaffirmed that the MTA's books were kosher
The MTA's biggest problem is all the debt they took on over the last 15 years which is now comiing due. They were able to take advantage of the historically low interest rates to refinace some of the debt but it still needs to be paid back someday. The $600 million thew comptrolers implied if used this year to cover operating expenses was used to pay off some of the mountain of debt comind due over the next two years
The MTA only hope going foward to keep the base fare from exceeding $2 is to streamline it's operations
PRIORITIZE capitol projects that will allow it to streamline operations. Postpone staion renovations that are not in dire need of repair. Utilize in house crews to do all work, hire specilaists such as elevator repair, esculator repair, CCTV(between bridges and tunnels and NYCT the mta will have installed 1000 cctv cameras over the past 3 years) etc. This is the perfect time to hire because so many good people are jobless. The end result will be lower overall costs and easier to track corruption.
Streamline it's administrative structure which they are doing
Reduce train crews from two to one by using cctv cameras, upgrade R68, r142, r143 with in cab flat pannels.. RUN SHORTER TRAINS MORE FREQUENTLY during non rush hours to reduce costs and attract more riders. Properly upgrade stations with clear consistant OPTO short train stoping locations. Better utilize public adress systems to keep the public abress including bi-lingual announcers where apropiate.
Reduce token booths to one a station and then replace the position with a security officer type position who would be responcible for maintaing secure premises such as monitor cctv, assiist NYPD and FDNY in disasters and other emergencies.
Better track and monitor surface operations such as busses and access a ride USING GPS BASED bus and access a ride monitorng. Take access-a-ride in house. I rather have the drivers make a bit more then the shady operating companies skim ther part. The whole system is amess and the MTA is occuring all the expenses of reservations and vehicles. Why not operate the dam thng themselves.
Better utilize MTA real estate and marketing opurtunities to create alternate revenue streams
Only then will the MTA be able to bring costs in line with expenses. Lets hope MR Hevesi participates in the un-sexy reorganization procccess where there is little to be gained politically except a better opereting more effecient MTA
#3 West End Jeff
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/
Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both scientists displayed classic signs of Asperger's syndrome, which include eccentricity, lack of social skills, obsession with complex topics and communication problems.
It is also suggested that Einstein, who discovered the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the laws of gravity, had these traits in varying degrees.
According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from a young age. As a child, he was a loner and often repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer, reports BBC.
Later in life, the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues. However, the researchers insist that he continued to show signs of having Asperger's.
"Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Asperger's syndrome," Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge, one of those involved in the study said, reports BBC quoting New Scientist magazine.
"What most people with Asperger's Syndrome find difficult is casual chatting - they can't do small talk."
The researchers believe that Newton too displayed classic signs of the condition. He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had.
If no one turned up at his lectures, he delivered them anyway - talking to an empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by depression and paranoia.
However, others believe that these traits can be attributed to the high intelligence of both men.
"One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely autistic," said Dr Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco.
"Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such an individual isolative and difficult."
Being familiar with Autism research, I'd like to make one other comment--"Asperger's," though it has separate diagnostic criteria from Autistic Syndrome, is used a synonym for "High Function Autism" or HFA, to distinguish from Rain Man. It is an abused diagnosis, but then Autism and Autistics have suffered a lot of official abuse.
Kinda hard, as he admitted here that he's actually a human being, as strange as that is, considering.
Direct from the annals of Subtalk.
Being OFFICIALLY labelled as a "geek" only assures that your BEST sex will be at a subway car storm door. Heh.
OFFICIALLY labelled as a "geek", as I wore thick black framed glasses, carried a pocket protector with 7 pens (all different ink colors) in it and tortose shell sunglasses, plus hung with the crowd that did things like the newspaper, the locker squad and the library club. (Did all that, plus delivered the New York Times (yeah, the school's in Baltimore) which meant I got to deal with the faculty, so I found out who were neat and who were cheapskates, since I also got to collect the money.)
however, I did drive a cool car (57 Chevy Bel Air) and played baseball (left handed catcher) mostly from the bench and got along with the jocks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you mind if I ask why?
Mark Michalovic
-Robert King
Speaking of mercury, has anyone ever noticed the decor of the Jersey Avenue station of the Hudson-Bergen light rail? Medicine is the theme, and as chemistry is a big part of medicine the floor is decorated with symbols of chemical elements, including mercury (Hg). You can see the symbol for helium (He) upside down in the picture below from this very website.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else have more picutres of this station and it's decor? I teach chemistry and they might come in handy. I'd take them myself, but I don't get up to North Jersey very often.
Mark
Mark
How about doing this one...
MTA: Not going my way!
Big bold letters:
"Lower fares, higher wages, richer pensions, more service, and fewer tax subsidies: the MTA delivered!"
Fine print:
"And now, to pay off the debts and unfunded pension liabilities, the MTA will deliver the opposite."
What is the PARODY that you are 'paradying'?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=487510
The following photo is from the last days of the K. The actual last day had R-40s on the K and B, preparing for the change over. Sorry for the low quality scan, but my scanner is antiquated, albeit still able to do transparency.
The BB became a single B in the late 60's after the Chrystie project I believe.
The "AA" (non-rush hours) from 168th to Hudson Terminal replaced the non-rush hour "CC", which became a rush hour only service when the 6th Ave. line opened (24 hour service to the Concourse line being provided by the new "D" train). In rush hours, with the "CC" operating, Washington Heights locals operated via 6th Ave. and became "BB" trains.
After Chrystie St. opened, existing post-war rolling stock, notably R32s and R38s, didn't have a "B" train indicator on their roll signs (the R1-9s did), so the pasted a single "B" over the "BB" and used that indicator. Sometimes, the pasted-on single "B" fell off.
-- Ed Sachs
The R-10s had B signs up front.
Bill "Newkirk"
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You know that this really sucks for Amtrak. Having a 44 train per day capacity constraint could really kill service on the NEC (as it did in this case for SLE service to New London). What bussiness does the CT DEP have in regulating how often Amtrak can raise and lower its lift bridges? Railroads are interstate commerce and thus under federal refulation and all inland navicable waterways are also mandated to be the responsibility of the federal government. I believe that either the Army Corps is responsible for lift bridge regulation. This needs to go to court and have Amtrak be able to run as many trains that it can while still making reasonable allowances to boat traffic.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Trains
What would they be saying if this were an auto bridge? Keep it open until we allow it to close?
A bunch of Robert Moses supporters!
If Amtrak / US DOT / FRA didn't have it's head up it's ass when it did the Acela system, it'd be a less of an issue - raise the bridge 30 - 40 feet up and you don't have to open/close it as much. With real high speed trains, this isn't a problem - they can negotiate 3% or 4% grades at track speed no problem.
Thus, if they had properly designed the system in the first place, this wouldn't be happening.
Why should CT DEP, or anyone else, roll over to allow Amtrak to do whatever it wants? Amtrak chose to retain an acient, at seasd level bridge system, and they have to deal with acommidating boater's needs as a result. There were and are ways of engineering around these issues, but they didn't bother to explore them. Tough shit, IMHO. CT has every right to manage their waterways and access to / from however they see fit for their state. If that screws up Amtrak because of Amtrak's stupidity, tough. The waterways were there first, they were a known issue from day one, the technology existed to reduce or even elimanate the problems, Amtrak chose not to implement it. Not CT's fault.
Thus, if they had properly designed the system in the first place, this wouldn't be happening.
You're mistaking the Shore Line for that multi-billion $ TGV only lines that the French built all over. The Shore Line carries a lot more than just ACELA's you know. You have AEM-7 hauled NE Direct trains, GP-40 hauled SLE commuter trains and U23/B23-7/C30-7 hauled P&W freight trains. The AEM's might be able to handle the grade, the geeps could probably handle it with a little more difficulty, but the P&W's will be crawling at 5-10 mph. What are you advocating here? The complete elimination of non HST? Acela Line East Commuter service? High Speed Local Freight?
Rebuilding the 5 bridges would not only have cost billions, taken YEARS, but the approach ramps on either side would have never passed NIMBY muster, let alone dealing with the various railroad junctions that are located next to these bridges.
Jimmy
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Hopefully it won't be the one the MTA just hired
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Amtrakstarts
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Do we have any portland ppl around who can comment to how badly their state is in the crapper?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Cascades
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Even despite the MHC's going out of service Amtraj is still having a rough time in the Mail and express bussiness.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Amtrakboxcars
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Greenbush
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Tampa
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Let's all hope that this useless piece of "tourist transit" is killed before it wastes any more money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Seattle
You actually think that the POS Central Link being propped up by unSound Transit (aka Piece Transit redux) actually stands a chance at reducing the number of cars on I-5 and 99? The Green Line was THE ONLY project in the works that would benefit the riders over much of King County, quite unlike the uni-corridor Light Rail plan propped up by Sound Transit and City Hall.
Elliot Blvd and the West Seattle Freeway are so choked with cars that Commuting via them is at best a joke, and at worst, more of a nightmare than the LIE. The Green Line would have benefitted both places, north and south of the city in a manner quite unlike that created by the Trolley system, which by all estimation would CREATE more car traffic through the closing of the Bus Tunnel, and, later when the dual usage tunnel reopened, fewer busses running through the tunnel because the LRT cars would require bigger headways.
As to the reference to the Seattle Center Monorail: First, it's a wholely separate system from the proposed Green Line, it's just that both happen to be monorails, and so to the uncouth, unschooled observer, appear the same. Second, it's the ONLY publically owned transit system in the United States to turn a profit annually! Now how many light rail systems can say that? San Diego? NOPE! Lost it's profitablity when it was extended! The Seattle Monorail WAS a tourist transit system, it was built for the 1962 worlds fair, how could it be anything else? And might I add that the original system was built at a cost of merely 3.5 million 1962 unit dollars for the 1.5 mile ROW, thats 2.3 million per mile, or an incredible 13 million per mile if adjusted for inflation between 1962 and 2001. Oh, and after the fair, when ALWEG had covered it's capital costs for the construction of the system they turned the whole system over to Century 21 for nothing. Century 21 in turn sold to the city for a mere 600,000 dollars, probably the best deal any city ever got on a transit system.
Compare the Planned monorail, and planned light rail lines. And consider these direct quotes from LightRail.org: "The latest analysis estimates a total cost of $3.6 billion – about $171 million per mile," they go on to say, "Seattle is certainly one of the most expensive urban areas to build any kind of transportation facility," becuase, "...Hilly terrain and numerous waterways, plus the constraint of the Pacific Ocean (Puget Sound) on one side."
What a load of BullSh!te, they're building UNDER the city through a tunnel built 10 years ago, they propose to merely build a mostly at grade line with all the hazards that brings, AND most of their ridership currently rides the bus ANYWAY! Sound Transit's Lightrail "LINK" is a farce,
Now look at the Seattle Popular Monorail Authority's plan for their 14 mile Green Line, and see, first of all, that the amount is listed just three pages off the homepage, easily accessible (quite unlike SoundTransit, where the figure is so buried in .PDFs I had to go to a secondary source for it). They list the cost as 1.749 billion dollars for their 14 mile line, which works out to a mere 121 million per mile, and that is including all consulting and such fees (it would be 1.4 billion, or 100 million even per mile without such an addition). That right, $50 million cheaper, AND the line is FULLY grade separated, with the possibilty of quiet, street friendly service on the same level as any Subway system in the world.
So no, Seattle should DUMP Sound Transit on it's Arse while they have the chance and just have SPMA build a secondary line down to Ranier Valley off their initial Green Line if they really need the service.
The SPMA's Green line is a project totally concieved, paid for, and built in the City of Seattle. I'm not sure if the SPMA has studied how many of their riders will come from the bus, but i would bet the results would be very similer to those of Central LINK light rail. Of course everyone knows that they will attract more riders than they anticipated, like many other Light rail systems have done. And as for relieving traffic congestion it's doubtful the monorail will do much to resolve traffic congestion in the city of seattle. What capasity they do free up, will quickly be filled by more motorists from both inside and outside the city.
As for the Metro Transit Tunnel, Running light rail through it is the best use for it. More People could use it by riding light rail through it than they ever could by running buses through it. Yes during the construction period they will need to close the tunnel, but by altering the bus route configuration in downtown seattle a lot of the effects will be nullified.
And Finally, you must remember not to be making cost comparasions this early in the game. Sound Transit is almost done with their design and is complete with their EIS work, and they have started construction (well actually pre-construction) while the SPMA is still very early into their design and EIS work. As Sound Transit learned, A lot can happen between design and construction and the SPMA is not immune from the same circumstances that hit ST.
Sound Transit has done practically nothing for those people who live north of Seattle, a 3 stop Commuter train maybe running twice a day (if it ever gets started, now ST just says '2003'), and express bus service that Metro could just as easily provide (oh and you can't use the Tunnel, unless you're one of the lucky 550 from Bellevue bus). Yet they want 3.5 billion for a light rail line that will serve the same area as their Commuter train. Excuse me for calling it Neo-Pierce Transit, if forgot that Pierce Transit still exsists, and yet Sound Transit for some reason feels the need to build them the Tacoma Link, which will serve only downtown Tacoma. Why did Metro KC have to pay for it's own CBD ride free zone, while Sound Transit paid for Tacoma's? I'm sorry for bring a bit biased, I just think that transportation system should provide service to ALL that pay it a subsidy, especially when that transit system draws from a select group of counties, not an entire state. Perhaps Sound Transit should be restricted to running inter-county Sounder commuter trains and a few ST express busses while Snohomish Metro and Pierce all provide intracommunity services.
It may be that SPMA is in the beginning of it's construction phase, not yet loaded down with all the stuff that made Sound transit 50 million dollars more than SPMA, however the point is that the price per mile is unlikely to rise much more than the 50 million per mile separating the two. And, even if both come in at the same, or nearly the same cost per mile, Monorail still wins, becuase it automatically provides all the service that a LRT could, with all the grade separation that a Heavy Rail line (like BART, NYCTA, WMATA, etc) provide, all at a fraction the cost of a heavy rail line.
BTW, I was wondering, are you the guy who ran "Busdude's Page o' Busses" at http://www.barp.ca/busdude/? That was a great site for Northwest bus photos, mind if I ask what happened to it?
Thanks
As for the other projects, While we may get Tacoma LINK light rail, you will note that we dont get other ST Express improvements that Snohomish County does. While we have LINK light rail, we got about Three ST Express Projects (DuPont, Shill P&R, and Tacoma Dome Stn West). We dont have any HOV direct access ramps, New Transit Centers, or as many P&R lots/improvements. Its all a big trade off.
The thing with the SPMA is, they are so early into their overall design that many people dont really know whats going on yet. Once people start really figureing out stuff, and once the final designs are done i will bet they will run afowl of their budget in the same way Sound Transit did. The other thing that i have agenst the monorail is that it isnt compatable with anything else. Most LRVs are capable of running anywhere, with a monorail there really are no standards to dictate stuff like that, and you are locked into a propriatory vendor.
And yes, i do run Busdude's Page O' Buses. The servers got changed and i bought a URL. Its now at www.busdude.com
I-695 (requiring voter approval for all tax increases) was found unconstitutional.
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Let's all hope that this useless piece of "tourist transit" is killed before it wastes any more money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#GE
That GE was able to make a diesel that was 40% cleaner than their current one for a minor investment (100 million for a new engine design isn't a lot anymore), seems to point to a place where big improvements can be made at low cost/impact.
Then again, I hear the existing GM 2 stroke won't be able to meet the upcomming EPA regs, though with no EGR, no catalyst, and no SCR, it's not like they're designing for a clean motor in the first place. Look at light diesel industry, where the technology is leaps and bounds beyond rail diesels (electronic valving, EFI, EGR, feedback systems, etc), not to mention the auto industry. It shouldn't be hard to make rail diesels a LOT cleaner today.
Anyway, I'm amazed GE thinks this is all new - VW was showing diesel on demand in cars years ago.
Then again, electrics are known to be more efficient and don't use any power sitting in a yard any....
Because their engines will just get shittier and shitter. You know how long it takes for a GE 4-stroke to load. The EPA needs to get off the railroads asses. Railroads save far more fuel and pollution compared to the motor vehicles that they replace. By forcing the locomotive builders to cut their preformance of their units all that will happen is that the traffic will shift to trucks.
The problem with GE's is a piss poor turbocharger design that's been 'fixed' by screwing with the injection system, and not by designing a decent turbo in the first place.
I wouldn't worry though, the Class I's are so braindead, they'll by GE/GM's shit no matter what. apparently both companies figured that out years ago, too...
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Hmmmm, seems that Harvard is trying to expand its own operations at the expense of the economy of the greater Boston area.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#CSXBoston
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Seriously, they will be known as NAFTA Rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Hola
According to the MTA web site No R Service between 36th Street and 95th Street(replaced by Shuttle Bus)
Today at Union Square Station announcement that R train is operating between Continental Ave and Whitehall Street only!!!!!
I actually saw a southbond R train (an R-46) with electric sign "To Whitehall Street"
THE MTA LIES AGAIN
Thank You
Thank You
Majority know well enough to NOT trust the MTA Website for a godsend.
You're Welcome. :)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Lets list all their lies and let the public aware of it
Thank You
Ironically, SEPTA's slogan is "Serious about Change". I think it's not serious for anything. The way Philadelphians are and Pennsylvanians, nothing works out with their cranky and short-minded attitudes.
Is the N running on the local track SB from 36th to 59th, as usual for weekends? How about NB? Is it making local stops?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
C Train Local - #3519
C Train Local - #3413
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Do some R68's have this equipment? Finally, since CBTC can help safely operate trains, will it result in higher speeds/less timers?
--AcelaExpress2005
The conventional signals (remember, this is a pilot project) will be put in service over the next half year plus. Meanwhile, I think they are going to begin testing various CBTC components which are being installed.
When this is all over, the L line will be the line to ride. Meanwhile, we Culver riders have not yet begun to be stuck with G.O.s.
Last Sunday I saw six R-40 sets and one R-40M set on the W. Usually there have been about three. If the Q was running only R-68's and R-68A's, that would explain some of the excess R-40's.
http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/angflt.html
perhaps they are confusing the 1963 date with the discontinuance of streetcar service in Los Angeles.
The PCC's saw very little use on the FCGU, three or four years total, as the cars were very in very bad shape by the storage for three years in the subway tunnel.
Southern Pacific (the owner of Pacific Electric) took FCGU to the cleaners on the PCC sale.
The PE (and LARy) is part of the focus of the OERM's collection. They do have at least one PCC from the PE. Salaam has posted a picture of it.
Tom
All the PC PCC's (double end, multiple unit, Pullman built) went to FCGU and were scrapped there. OERM didn't get a 5000. They have SF MUNI PCC's, LARy, LATL & LAMTA PCC's, a PCC from San Diego, but no PE ones.
I believe Salaam posted a PE "Hollywood" car, which is not a PCC.
It would be fun to explore the terminal end, but that would take some kind of approval from the building owner and an escort to unlock doors. Neither of those things is likely at any time, and certainly not on a weekend, unless you could convince the real estate agent that the group represented rich investors with a multi-million dollar down payment. You would have better luck getting a copy of the ½ hour tour of the place done by Huel Howser for his KCET program.
At the other end there is nothing but the abandoned tunnel, no tracks ties or wire. There is a gate in front of the tunnel mouth with plenty of holes in it. It is trespassing to go into the tunnel, which goes several hundred meters ending at a blank wall, but there is plenty of olfactory evidence that people have been there. Outside the mouth of the tunnel is the old Toluca Yard. There is usually a neighborhood soccer game in progress there. Here is an ariel view of the location. Or maybe this tour will suffice.
Tom
You have a safe trip over from the islands!!!
R-32
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I seem to recall the rationale behind this hair-brained scheme was, "Let's paint the cars white. That way we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied." Huh? Sounds almost like a Ralph Kramden scheme. Hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Because they aren't "Snowbirds". "Snowbirds" was a name previously taken by another rail transportation vehicle back in the 60's. I believe in 1965 the Lehigh Valley RR purchased a fleet of AlCo C628's that they then (eventually) painted in a white scheme with large black LEHIGH VALLEY lettering on the sides and black upper surfaces. Note the following example:
--------------------
Down with the rest, the Brighton line is the best! phased in from 1985-89.
Canvasbirds. Hmm, gotta love it.
The other typical train suffix is "Liner"
Peace.
ANDEE
Mark
---Choo Choo
On this past Friday (5/2), on train # 5446, 8 people got on and nobody got off. On train # 5713, 15 got off, and nobody got on.
Obviously a few years ago, the TA ran short trains during non-rush hours, but they haven't in a while. Why are these signs still up, and at every station?
"Board shuttle trains here"
What shuttle trains? I don't think the Culver Shuttle or the 3rd Ave El run anymore...
Are there any more (types of) signs like this? Why are they still up? And why don't they put some of these on the (G) platforms and cover up the part that says "off-hours", so passengers won't get confused? I was once part of an entire train-worth of (G) passengers that was standing near the back end of the platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, most having got off the A/C, and the train pulled in and stopped at the front. It was chaotic, and is really annoying running around the staircases to get to the train.
Elias
Pictures to come soon!
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/yards/e99/
After I left Oren and Tristan I went down to Central Avenue and got some pictures of the Blue Line G Route extension construction. 33 images, resized and compressed for faster viewing. These guy are not wasting any time.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/g-route/
John
Here are three of what I think are the most interesting pictures I took today. Full complement will be on my website at a later date with bus rodeo pictures, this is merely a preview of what is to come!
White Line to...
CAF 5159
Between the blind ends of two Bredas (MUST SEE!!!)
View from the ground as opposed to taking picture from a station platform.
Here are more examples;
DCP01368.jpg
DCP01369.jpg
DCP01370.jpg
DCP01371.jpg
John
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You asked for it.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/yards/e99/DCP01350.jpg
John
No, WMATA has always had a open photography policy with certain limits. The limits are no tripods or light stands can be used on WMATA property for photography without a permit.
Mark
From what Oren related to me the Bus Rodeo was more open and had more stuff that people see then what was in Greenbelt Yard (E99).
This was my second rail Rodeo the first was in 2001, These are the pictures I took back then. I missed last years Rodeo. This was where I first saw and photographed the CAF cars before WMATA had excepted them for revenue service. Being I don’t use or ride metrorail very much my first ride aboard a CAF car was in Greenbelt Yard.
John, someday I'll see that collection of yours.
Haven’t had time to check with boss about that Saturday run from the west.
John
Everybody agrees that the Lex bottleneck is partly due to the dwell times at stations being too long, but too long means over 30 seconds. The announcements aren't that long.
Possibly a train in the middle of the night could get where it's going faster with quicker announcements.
"This is a Manhattan-bound L train. The next stand clear of the closing doors please."
Or even worse:
"This is...[BING-BUNG]-CLICK"
Some human conductors do, too. There's one guy on the F who insists on staying in each station to announce every major stop on every connecting train. For example: "Transfer is available to the uptown 'D' express to 205th Street in the Bronx, stopping at 59th Street-Columbus Circle, 125th Street, Yankee Stadium, Fordham Road, and ending at 205th Street. Transfer is also available to the 'B' to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx,...."). However, he does sometimes "hurry it up" - by omitting his own train's info!!
"This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train. The nex-Stand clear of the closing doors please!"
I guess he did this because there was no reason to sit at those stations for longer than necessary. But once we got into Manhattan, he let the messages play out fully.
As for late nights, I was on a Redbird #2 (over a year ago) from 12:07a to 12:30a (approx. from Bergen St. to Penn Sta.) and on some station stops the conductor wouldn't say anything and open and close the doors. Announcements were succinct, and this was where I met the best Redbird in service, #9119. Smooth starts and stops, smooth doors, and the like. What equipment was in use on the #2 line before the R142's took over?
"This i- The ne- Stand cl-" DING DONG CLICK
The R142A and the other NTTs should announce the next stop once the train starts moving if they don't announce it in the station. For example:
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 trai- Stand clear of the closing doors please! DING DONG
(train starts to move)
The next stop is 77th Street
But the only time it would do that is when the next stop wasnt announced when the doors were open.
"This is a Brooklyn-bound 2 express train. Stand clear of the closing doors! The next stop is 14th Street. Ding dong!"
I've only heard it that one time.
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Anyway, the descriptions of the items say that these date back to the turn of the 19th century, but they look IND style. Can anyone comment?
Reminds me of a pair of Redbird bulkhead signs (route & destination) I saw in an antique shop on 79 St, "great 1920s art deco collectable!" When I told the proprietor that the frames themselves couldn't be older than 1958, and the signs were from the mid-1980s, I was asked to leave the store.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-- Ed Sachs
Construction of Church Street South Extension
Over New Haven Interlocking and Rail Yard
... As of Saturday May 3, 2003 6:30 PM the Church Street crane pick is a GO. Anticipated initial pick time will be at 12:30 AM to begin transport of bridge at 1:30 AM.
Newington, Conn. - State Transportation Commissioner James F. Byrnes, Jr. has announced that the construction of the Church Street South Extension over the New Haven Rail Yard is in the final stage of preparations of a major operation. O & G Industries, the contractor for the project, is completing plans to erect the bridge span over the mainline railroad tracks at Union Station. This will require a complete shut down of electric power and rail service while construction crews set the bridge span in place over the tracks.
Erection operations are currently scheduled for Sunday, May 4, 2003 between the hours of 1:30 AM and 3:30 AM, weather permitting. (In the event of inclement weather, the operation will take place on Sunday, May 11, 2003 at the same time.) The public is alerted that announcements and notifications from both Metro North and Amtrak will be made regarding any effect this construction may have on train schedules during this time period.
A protected viewing area will be established on Union Avenue adjacent to the construction work zone. The City of New Haven Police Department will control this area. The public is asked to abide by all in force parking restrictions and regulations. For safety and security reasons, the Public will not be allowed to enter railroad property.
This construction operation will be a first for the Connecticut Department of Transportation and will involve the use of the largest, mobile, land-based high capacity crane currently in existence. To minimize the disruption to train service and eliminate the difficulty with building a bridge over active rail lines, the Department of Transportation specified that this portion of the bridge be completed in a single night operation over the weekend.
The bridge span to be erected is a 320 foot long truss weighing over 850 tons and is the main segment of the 1280 foot long bridge that will carry Church Street South Extension over the New Haven Rail Yard to link up with Sargent Drive adjacent to I-95. The truss span has already been fully assembled on temporary supports outside the limits of the railroad tracks. This high-capacity crane owned by the Lampson International LLC, will require over 4 weeks of assembly and was delivered on more than 200 tractor-trailer loads of parts. The crane will lift the truss span in its entirety over 65 feet in the air and travel 100 feet towards the tracks where it will be set in it’s final position.
When all Phases of the construction work are complete in May of 2004, the new bridge and roadway extension will connect Union Avenue with Sargent Drive. This will provide an alternate route for traffic seeking downtown, Sargent Drive, and Long Wharf areas of New Haven as well as improved access to and from I-95 and Union Station. The total Project cost is approximately $32 million dollars.
If you've never seen Hudson, the tracks to ADM literally go right through the center of the city - right through a city park.
On occasion, they wouldn't call. And, without fail, when they didn't we would need to get to the other side - and couldn't.
Can you show me on a map where you are talking about?
I have passed through Hudson, NY on an Empire Service train to Albany...and I see what ur talking about
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
What would be the point of lowering it?
Peace,
ANDEE
They are not supposed to block all three crossings, though of course they *could* if they tried.
There is a defect detector west of town, and if defect detected, they would be out the other side of town before they could stop anyway, but the rules are not to block the town. I spent an afternoon chewing the fat with the engineer while the conductor got in his two mile walk checking the train.
Ha.... I was taking with this crew before they left Dickinson, and then I drove home on the Interstate. Sometime later, same crew is cooling its heels. Actually the train ahead of them got tagged with a defect, and that one stopped east of town like it was supposed to, and so this guy got held up west of town, and could not enter the grade crossing until the front guy was gone.
Elias
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BTW there are no handles on the outside of the train. Gates and springs protect the people on the outside of the train not those crossing from car to car. That was the point of the modification.
I don't understand that. Please explain.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As to why the end doors weren't simply kept locked when the decision was made that the slant wasn't good from a safety point of view, at first they were. However, unlike the 75-footers, the end doors can't be unlocked electrically in an emergency, and either nobody thought of retrofitting the cars with that feature, it was deemed more expensive than adding the chains and brackets, or somebody decided that it was better to allow people to walk between cars, even at the cost of the cars' aesthetic appeal (and remember, the first 200 cars came in without air conditioning and the end door windows don't open and never did, so locked end doors might not have been considered as palatable as they might be now).
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
When the R-40 slants go to a museum, then the bars can be removed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Well, It was fun when I was a teenager and in my early 20's - ten years later now I guess I would look a bit foolish riding between cars - you seem to be able to get away with more when you are a kid. I guess it was the closest thing my generation had to gate cars, as the Myrtle El was removed before I was born.
***It is not recommended to ride between cars - dangerous! I would never do such a thing.
wayne
Any other comments from those who attended?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two grandkids. My 22 month old grandson is quite the railfan, having ridden and enjoyed PATCO, the Market-Frankford el, and the Cape May Seashore Lines Budd car.
Bob
Chuck Greene
--Mark
I liked your Standard - looked like who ever gets to play with it has loads of fun making those bull gear, door motor and compressor noises. I know I would!! :)
Yes, I get to make all sorts of fun noises when I play with the standard :)
--Mark
I also went on the Line Car Chase Fantrip on the Media and Sharon Hill lines. We chased line car D-39, due to be retired very shortly, as SEPTA now has a diesel replacement line car on the property. Events on this trip may have made this D-39's last run (it supposedly had three other last runs before ours).
We did the Media route first, and all was uneventful, with a good number of photostops made en route. But about 3/4 into the route, line car D-39 experienced motor problems (I think two of the four motors on the car shorted out). It travelled to the end of the line at reduced speed, with the railfans following it in a 1981 Kawasaki car.
On the way out of Media, on an upgrade on State(?) Street, the motors on D-39 were cut back in, but they blew again. This time, the Kawasaki car was in the same electrical block as the line car, and the power surge shorted out our car, too! No propulski!! The Line Car was able to recover from the surge (2 motors still OK) but we were dead in our tracks, literally! We were rescued by an in-service Media Local - it coupled onto our car and towed us back to the junction of the Media & Sharon Hill Lines, where we all got off. The car was then towed to the 69th St shop for repair. Meanwhile, the new diesel line car was dispatched to rescue D-39, and towed D-39 back to 69th St shop. We got unexpected pictures of these line cars coupled to one another.
After it dropped off D-39, the diesel line car and a new chartered Kawasaki car met up with us at the junction, where we took it to the end of the Sharon Hill line and chased the diesel line car back to 69th St. We ended uo chasing 2 line cars, had ample time for lunch and comfort breaks (very few or none were originally planned) and the trip ended about 4pm instead of 2:30pm.
Got some good video chasing the line cars as well as in-service video on some of the viaducts that these lines run over. Nearly went for a swim trying to grab that perfect angle!
There was an ad-hoc PCC trip that also occurred on Sunday, 1pm was the start time. Did anyone attend that trip?
--Mark
Are you making trolley videos yet:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Of course, if you'd rather just have the trolley portions of the videos that have subway, too, that can be arranged ... just talk to me off-line.
--Mark
DANBURY RAILWAY MUSEUM
SPRING RAILFAIR DOUBLEHEADER!
SUNDAY MAY 4TH 2003
TRAIN SHOW (at Western Connecticut State University) featuring 100+ tables of Railroad Collectibles, Gifts, Models and Books
COMBINED WITH RAILFAIR DAY (at Danbury Railway Museum) featuring Unlimited Vintage Train Rides, Track Car rides, Model Railroad Clinic and More
FREE SHUTTLE BUS service takes you between BOTH events all for ONE LOW PRICE ADMISSION ($7 Adults $3 Children).
Train Show runs 10am to 3pm (at the College)
Railfair runs 10am to 5pm (at the Museum)
Contact:
Danbury Railway Museum
(203) 778-8337
http://www.danbury.org/DRM
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yep, that's it.
---Cho0 Choo
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://brianweinberg.com/photos/5borobike/5borobike.html
Note, there are some photos on-topic for this forum. Try to find them.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Your pictures made me feel like i was there
---Choo Choo
I bowed out htis year because for the first time in a long time I Had no one to ride with.
I was thinking about marshalling but decided just to skip this year.
What I like the best about the bike tour is you get to see the underbelly of the city from a prespective you don't normally see
---Choo Choo
It has never aired live. There isn't any competitive aspect, so there is no interest in carrying it as a sports event, like the Marathon.
It was featured in an episode of a program called "Marlo the Magic Movie Machine" sometime around 1979-1980. It was also the feature subject of a Johnny Carson monologue and a Charles Osgood poem around 20 years ago.
It has received more TV coverage abroad. There have been programs about it in Japan, Brazil, Germany and Quebec. There was a Canadian TV crew out yesterday.
FYI, I was a Marshall in it three years ago and my brother has been a Marshall in the tours for nearly 8 years...
Oh yeah, on regular days, do they currently allow cars on the SI Ferry?
---Choo Choo
You were at the tail end. The regularly scheduled 5:30 boat was coming in, when loading stopped on the Legion. The 5:30 boat was the last boat that officially took 5 Boro riders back to South Ferry. There were about 50 stragglers on the 6:00 boat; they used the passenger terminal to enter.
Oh yeah, on regular days, do they currently allow cars on the SI Ferry?
Not any more, thanks to 9/11.
So I went with her to the car and helped put the bike rack on the car and I chatted a bit. By the time I got back to the ferry line, it was shorter. The distance the line extended beyond the ramp was cut in half. The line moved quickly because a ferry was boarding. But the line stopped moving when I was about halfway down the ramp. I then had to wait an additional 20 or so minutes until the Legion arrived and started boarding.
Anyhow, my point is that when I left the festival, people were still coming off the bridge and there were a lot of people still at the festival. A LOT! So there is no explanation except that during the time I was helping with the bike rack at the car (30 min max), most of those people headed down for the ferry. Because as we were pulling away from the dock, the line on the ramp was pretty short.
How many people (with bikes) do you think they put on each of the boats?
---Choo Choo
I'm was a 5 Boro marshal and one of my assignments was the Ferry Terminal.
I tried to leave the festival at 3:45pm, but they were only allowing small groups out at a time.
The plan is supposed to be hold people in the Fort for 5 minutes out of every 15 minutes. The purpose is to permit automobile traffic to cross Bay St. There are contingency plans to hold people at the Fort, if there are any ferry problems. There were no ferry problems yesterday.
The line for the ferry at that time was way past the end of the ramp. It went up the street a good way.
If you left at 3:45, then you arrived at the Ferry Terminal at approximately 4:05. How far back were they? Our reports at the ferry dock were that they were backed up only to the water station near the Post Office. We try to keep the bus ramps to the terminal clear. Any overflow will go into Bay St, which is closed to traffic.
my point is that when I left the festival, people were still coming off the bridge and there were a lot of people still at the festival.
The last riders were entering the Fort at 3:45. The SAG vehicles pulled in around 4:15. They started pushing people out of the Fort around 4:30. All the people were at the ferry by 5:00, except those that stopped at the bars.
How many people (with bikes) do you think they put on each of the boats?
Our guess is around 1200. It varies with how much loading time we take. We figure that a boat load will take up half the ramp.
If you left at 3:45, then you arrived at the Ferry Terminal at approximately 4:05. How far back were they?
Let me try to describe it. On Bay St, right by the ramp, there was a low, concrete median with plant life in it. The median went up the street a ways, then either stopped, or there was a large break in it. That is where the line was backed up to.
The last riders were entering the Fort at 3:45. The SAG vehicles pulled in around 4:15. They started pushing people out of the Fort around 4:30. All the people were at the ferry by 5:00, except those that stopped at the bars.
My sister and I made a 45 minute stop at the pre-Verrazano Bridge rest area. We then arrived at the Festival at 2:30pm. Without that long stop, and another stop at the Astoria Park rest area, and without my sister, I guess I could have made it to the Festival by 1:15pm. When did the first bikers begin to arrive at the Festival?
Our guess is around 1200. It varies with how much loading time we take. We figure that a boat load will take up half the ramp.
At 1200 a pop, and assuming 25,000 take the boat home, that would be 21 boat loads. How many boats were there per hour? What was the race's estimate for the number of riders that would take the ferry home, and/or did take the ferry home? Also, do you have the latest for how many people rode in this year's tour?
Thanks for answering all these questions!
---Choo Choo
Approximately 11:15. There is a mandatory hold at Astoria Park until 10:00. There is also a mandatory hold at Ft Wadsworth until 11:45.
How many boats were there per hour?
4 boats/hour most of the time. The sole exception was the interval from 4:00 to 4:30. There were indeed 21 boat loads, starting at 12:15 through 5:30. The early boats went out with fewer than 1200. We loaded more on the later boats. We probably achieved maximum loading between 2:30 and 3:30. We use 25,000 as the estimate for the number that we transport back to South Ferry.
Also, do you have the latest for how many people rode in this year's tour?
We don't know how many people rode the tour but we will have an accurate number of how many were registered to participate. The registrations from Thursday on through Sunday have not been processed yet. Those numbers typically run more than 1000 per day.
Wow, I'm a good guesser!
Can you please post the final tally of registered riders when you know it? Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Four boats were operating, which constitutes the large boat fleet at any given time. One of the big boats is always out of service for maintenance.
The regularly scheduled Kennedy Class boats were the Kennedy and the Lehman. Bikes were permitted on the automobile deck, which is now closed because of post 9/11 security concerns. The bikes are restricted to the lower deck because of DOT's concern for their regular passengers.
The two extra boats were the Barberi (Barberi Class) and the Legion (Kennedy Class). All three decks could be used for bikes because they carried no regular passengers.
Needless to say there was a very long line (2pm) waiting for the ferry of sweaty bikers.
I'd be curious to know how long you waited.
Is it possible that the organizers paid for the extra boats?
The last page of the participant's Ride Guide reads in part: "Additionally, proceeds benefit the Department of Transportation Traffic Safety for NYC, Inc..."
This foundation is operated and administered by NYCDOT. It is not unusual for special events, organized "fun and games", etc. to make a contribution to NYC to defray extra costs incurred by the City.
I would not be surprised, if the amount of this "contribution" were not somehow related to the extra costs for operating the extra boats.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's just a matter of time before the Kawasaki R-62s debut on the 3.
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
1506-1510 are back on the road in 4 service, sporting new trucks....
-Stef
R-32.
As to the length of #3 trains, it's been ten cars, not nine, for about a year and a half now.
David
wayne
They did. Has everyone already forgotten the how the MTA cut down the 11-car trains to 10-car during the summer months? It was done because of the presumably lower ridership during the summer months with students not going to school/and other stuff. I believe they got rid of the rogue R33 single with fans only. Even with the R62A's coming in last summer, they still ran 10-car trains.
For this summer, it'
I mean to say, 'For this summer, who knows if they'll still do the 10-car pattern.
How does cutting the trains to ten cars increase the capacity of the line?
9536-7 haven't been stripped; I wouldn't count them out just yet.
9536-7 was off the road today and stored on the track next to 9362-3, but I've seen cars there that have gone back into service. I won't believe it's permanently OOS until I see parts missing.
Correction: 9354-5 and 9526-7 have been OOS for months.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
In other words, they may be at one of the ends one day and in the middle the next.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.04.15/r-36ml.html
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Directly to its north were 9662-3, which seem to still have their original pre-GOH gray seats.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You really have no clue how a railroad works do you?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Needless to say, your 'birds are not faring well. No more 'birds are running on the ML anymore and it seems they are going fast on the Flushing...
Sorry for the blurriness but it was zoomed through a tinted window.
Not that you can tell from the picture but the 2 genesis engines were /_____| |_____\ (back to back) instead of the usual /_____| /_____| (sniffing leader's ass) alignment.
Not that you can tell from the picture but the 2 genesis engines were /_____| |_____\ (back to back) instead of the usual /_____| /_____| (sniffing leader's ass) alignment.
It's called "Elephant Style".
That's blatant discrimination against dogs!
Computers like numbers.
Computers like to *SORT* things
they like to sort things by the numbers....
So, without the letters, the order of the doors would be:
1, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
End of Mystery.
(Except of course that they should have used Port and Starboard!
: )
that is, until a hoodlum fills in the 0's to look like 8's, then the computer goes wacko ...
oh wait, the comptuers don't actually look at the little stickers to figure out what doors to open. This is all moot
I'll bet you the computer will generate a report for the car-knockers on which doors need to be fixed.
Or if someone is holding a door, it can tell the T/O // C/R where the problem is.
: ) Elias
The thing is, I don't think there are any stations where both doors are opened at a station. So being told what side is being held open is pointless, since they should already know.
Robert
David
I hope this helps.
Robert
Finally, you've uncovered the real reason right-on-red is prohibited down here.
Mark
After all, if traffic moved in Manhattan, then a lot more people would be complaining about the subways being slow. Heh.
That used to be the reason, but it turns out that it doesn't matter which direction a stationary object is pointed in when you hit one. Let's face it: at a mile an hour, you're not gonna do that much damage anyway.
Mark
robert
But with the NYC Subway having suffered so many decades of deferred maintenance, there are now many more stations requiring rehabs than can be done at any given time. This is not to say that I excuse the lack of a response, but I wouldn't attribute it to racism.
At high street I noticed an 46 going southbound, so I got off at B'Way-Nassau to shoot some. How many pictures does anyone have featuring reroutes? :)
I got there and an A was pulling out. To my delight what pulled in next was...
But that wasn't the best. Then a C pulls in, and next up...
Wait! Wait! After an A follwed by a C, and MASSIVE congestion (I could see the A still sitting right there outside the station for about 5 minutes), I got...
Only thing more beautiful would have been slants... :)
Zillions. Here's one from an unusual vantage point:
Great pics by the way. Rare to see reroutes, especially those through the Cranberry.
Here's what was crazy. E trains were running down 6th Avenue and terminating at 2nd Avenue. So the F was running via the E and the E was running via the F. When I got to 2nd this afternoon, there was a substantial crowd waiting for a Brooklyn-bound F that won't come until tomorrow morning.
And when I left 2nd, there were three R-32 sets in the station, two E's on the middle tracks and one F on the NB local track. Too bad I had no way to get a picture of that!
The E was rerouted via 63rd Street (and hence 6th Avenue) because of work somewhere on the 53rd Street line. In most cases, it continues to 2nd Avenue, even though it could go to WTC; this time, it may have specifically gone to 2nd to avoid congestion, with the C and F already sharing the track the E would need to get to WTC.
But it sure was confusing, especially since the PA systems on the R-32's aren't very clear. Nobody at W4 had any clue what was going on. Sending the E to a dead end probably wasn't the best of ideas, at least without reams and reams of crystal clear signage on the platforms and on the trains.
Yeah, alot of people were lost yesterday, I overheard a group @ Spring St that thought at first they had to change for the (F) at Jay, but then somebody pointed out that they already WERE on an (F), and they thought it would magically turn around at Jay and go back up towards 2nd Ave (I think they were going to Delancey or E Bway). The last I saw of them was at Jay; they were headed towards Bergen.
R-32
Not that its the definitive answer, but but to show you you're not alone in getting used to 100% R46s.
Also the N according to thsi report is 100% 60' cars.
To be honest I really don't know the purpose of this report and there may be some reason why the report doesn't actually reflect the true assignments.
Also, it doesn't tell what type of equipment runs on which lines. It just classifies as 51', 60' and 75'.
Its interesting because it does say that the N is all 60' cars, but during the midnight hours runs 4 car sets.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Sure enough, we came to an unscheduled stop in Garfield. After she got off, and we got going again, the conductor made a slightly humorous announcement, the essence of it was a reminder not to smoke on the train.
I checked the schedule: the next train from Garfield, the last train of the day, was three hours later.
On a related note: can someone explain the reason for adding a bicycle rack to a train station, when there's a grand total of two houses in a 1-mile radius, and the nearest village a couple of miles away? A new bicycle rack is apparently, one of the things that will be added as part of the ongoing construction work at the station.
Might come in handy. If it's such a low density area, perhaps there's a chance of riding your bike to the station each day without getting killed. And a few miles is the ideal range for a bike ride: too long for most people to enjoy walking, but pretty quick on a bike.
Also, is R62A 2133 still at Livonia or was it transferred to Corona?
Yeah, that happens when there is a 11-car set ENTIRELY of R62A singles, anything in the 2000- and 2100-series on the #7 line...that is EXTREMELY rare...and Gary C. or R33 #8840 a.k.a. Tom Maley can tell you that...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
David
Before GOH, the emergency lights were located in the center fluorescent ceiling lights. Installing the emergency lights in the A/C vent cover was a GOH thing, it wouldn't work when the fans were in place.
Bill "Newkirk"
As to the R-32 and non-air-conditioned R-38 and R-40 cars, their incandescent emergency lights were in the fluorescent lighting diffusers. The cars got air conditioning during GOH, and new fluorescent lighting (which doesn't require incandescent bulbs) at the same time.
David
R-32
David
David
David
David
There are some changes vs the March edition:
The new fares are reflected in the narrative portion of the map. A box detailing the new 311 Non-emergency help number has also been added.
The boxes at the lower left corner on the subway side detailing the restoration of the 1 & 9 service and regular 2 & 3 service and the Coney Island/Stillwell Av reconstruction have been removed and replaced by a box detailing the Q train weekend reroute via the local track in Manhattan.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Are you serious or joking? New printing facilities?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"No tourists go there, and New Yorkers don't need maps. Especially New Yorkers who work for the MTA at 370 Jay."
The workers at 370 Jay Customer Service could USE a few lessons on both the system and public relations. I recently attempted to bring to their attention an illogical weekend GO as listed on the TA website: No N service; W running EXPRESS outbound 59-Stillwell via Sea Beach and returning to Manhattan normal via West End local. No one on the phone seemed to understand, and there was no answer at the W line super's number. So I went down to 370 on my lunch hour.
Armed with the help of a map and pertinent screen shots from the website, I attempted to explain that the way the GO was worded, there would no service in either direction at any Sea Beach station except New Utrecht. They were very patronizing and dismissive- not to mention talking out of both sides of their mouths. I didn't know what I was talking about; after all, they work for Transit and I don't. They did at least call 'upstairs' only to find that the wording on the GO stood as written.
After ten minutes of frustration, I never did receive a definitive explanation one way or the other as to whether there would or would not be Sea Beach service. They probably got a good laugh about me being one of those stupid Foamers. Unfortunately, I never got to check out the GO for myself that weekend.
So 370 Jay is NOT the answer for recent maps or accurate information.
You really should, just on principle. Ask Greenberger, I think he knows what really happened that weekend.
---Choo Choo
...and New Yorkers don't need maps. Especially New Yorkers who work for the MTA at 370 Jay."
...I was being sarcastic :)
---Choo Choo
"Will there be any trains stopping at 9 Av on the Sea Beach line?"
They have to either say yes, no, or we don't know. If they say yes, fine. If they say no, fine again, and laugh at them for taking away Sea Beach service. And if they say they don't know, then it would be cause to file a formal complaint with someone who could force them to give you an answer. It is their job to give you an answer.
---Choo Choo
In response to customer remarks that for $2, the subway should stop at their homes, the MTA decided to better serve the Sea Beach line by adding more stops. Starting with 9 Ave, new stations will be added every block, plus some mid-block stations. When the Slants are retired, the Sea Beach will exclusively run retired MBTA Boeing LRVs.
But that explains why N trains weren't going past Kings Highway. They must have been busy building new stations down there!
David
And that reminds me of another thing. If there's no third rail, then what's up with the signals up there? How are they powered, and how can they tell if a train is in the next block?
I'm not sure what is meant by "up there." The yard's at ground level. As to signals, they're powered by AC, not DC (which is what courses through the third rail).
David
This is from First hand experince, since I work on the work train three pick ago and came out of the yard many times.
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
First, it was a yard that was NOT BUILT by NYCT but rather ACQUIRED -- in this case from the Long Island Railroad. Linden Yard was originally an LIRR freight classification yard. The yard is actually part of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch that happens to be fenced off from the rest of the LIRR system. The entire facility is devoid of third rail, making it acessible to MOW equipment only.
Secondly, Linden does not serve as a 'backdoor' to Livonia yard or any other TA facility. Linden is primarily a track fabrication yard (where the track panels are assembled prior to installation). It allows access to the A division just outside of Junius Street (actually the southbound platform is 'cut' near the lead-car marker to accommodate trains coming out of Linden on the 'wye' track). The other 'arm' of the 'wye' track connects to the 'B' Division via the Canarsie Line (just outside of the Livonia Avenue station). Linden also serves as a diesel re-fueling facility.
22nd Street is but one station. Why would more LRVs be needed? In addition, service out to Weehawken is a mere 2 miles. I would imagine that the rolling stock that is either in storage or on order would be sufficient.
As for the NCS on the other side of the Passaic, I believe that enough rolling stock was ordered over there to eventually cover the startup of the NERL, if/when it ever gets built.
The 2 ones I have used to exit the station in recent weeks have always had the V up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's all part of Federal Employee Week
Phil Hom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Little Salaam-like posting there!
John
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know his email was something like that, but asiaticcommunications.com isn't a registered domain name, and according to whois.sc, never was.
He apparently has a TON of different email addresses as made obvious
by a different addy at each board/message..
Having met (and leisurely conversated with) him and his wife, these
two are in my thoughts and prayers...
While I seldom agreed with much of what Salaam posted here (nor understood much of it), still I would hope that his 'problems' weren't caused by others. Also, keep in mind that Salaam was VERY headstrong in his videography -- when it came to getting the 'ultimate shots' -- so his 'legal problems' might also lie in that arena. Unfortunately, not enough info to get an 100% answer here, but it's something not out of the ballpark.
Food for thought.
Salaam was wacky enough that I can assume he is just taking part in another wacky adventure.
---Choo Choo
OT
---Choo Choo
Brah, you're thinking in the OPPOSITE direction.
Myself and the mouse found PROFF it is a much COMPLICATED
case... Since IM NOT ABOUT TO SPILL DETAILS of the man's personal
life on this here TRANSIT SUBWAY board... best I can say is he's in
much need of our thoughts and prayers..
This is no time to bash the man... jest pray for his safekeep.
Since I had a POSITIVE meeting and enjoyed much conversating with him
in his times visiting NY previously...
If you did too, then do. If not, then nevermind brahs.
Yes, unless (1) the arrest happened when he was a juvenile [hardly the case here], (2) the arrest records have been sealed [very rare in non-juvenile cases, but it can happen - one of our lawyers here would know the circumstances better than I], or (3) the arrest did not result in a conviction and the record was "expunged" [this can happen when the person petitions for it and has no prior record, and probably under certain other circumstances - what, I don't know].
Like others have said, I hope that he has not done anything to get himself in trouble again. I may not care for his attitude or other behavior, but he is an excellent photographer who has made positive contributions as well as negative ones to our hobby.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Totally! So I just hope that if it is a fact that he has been arrested, then those in the know would tell us so and stop making vague allusions that just tease us. I hate when people make vague allusions. Either tell us everything (or at least a non-vague allusion) or keep your secrets to yourself.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I don't think any of us know whether or not that is the case. South Ferry and I have both done some internet sleuthing but we haven't found any hard evidence of what may have occurred, just some references in Salaamallah's own posts on other message boards to some apparent legal difficulty he has been experiencing. In an earlier post I've stated the search arguments I've used; anyone can do the same and get a little more detail than what I've posted, but nothing substantial. I'm not planning to call the police department in the area where I think he lives and ask, especially since I don't know what alias he might have used that particular week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is a TRANSIT BOARD, Bri...
In the absence of a fellow SubTALKer the least I can do is reply
to public inquiry about his whereabouts WITHOUT putting up
PERSONAL FACTS or BELIEFS about the man... he's as much a private citizen as are you and I.
Further, with the intent of respecting the ON-TOPIC demeanor inscribed herein,
I'm refraining from mentioning any further details about this issue which:
A) Keep this from becoming yet another OT thread. (recently made notorious)
and B) RESPECTING the privacy and personal life of the man in reference.
I don't think any of us would want PERSONAL details of their common life
to be posted on a public forum..... hmm?
While to our man, Salaam, that may have been the case elsewhere,
nuh nuh, it AIN'T gonna be the case HERE, brother.
1SF9
Much Respect.
:)
No. Arrest records are not public records. They are treated as confidential records available to law enforcement and certain other limited disclosure. If criminal charges are filed, the court record is public.
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am sure of California only, but I imagine it is true throughout the country. If not, think of the political mischief that could take place if those with political power could have potential opponents arrested, then point out the arrest records in the next campaign. Of course no one thinks anyone in this country would stoop to such tactics. Just ask Marion ("Bitch set me up") Berry.
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What you are missing is that most arrests are made based on a police officer's "probable cause" to believe that the person arrested has committed a crime. If a police officer gets a radio call at 3:00 A.M. that a residential burglar has just stolen a large TV set, and a few minutes later sees an old car with such a large TV set in the trunk that the trunk lid will not close, he might stop the car and investigate. While talking with the driver, who is evasive about who owns the TV set, he might notice a set of burglar tools inside the car. All those things together would give the officer pretty good probable cause to arrest the driver on suspicion of burglary without waiting for a case to be filed. The same thing could happen if a store owner reports that he has just been robbed and a police officer sees some one who fits the description of the robber a few blocks away who runs as soon as he sees the officer. In both cases some exculpatory evidence (the TV set is a different make than the one stolen; the store owner cannot identify the person arrested) may quickly surface which brings so much doubt as to whether the DA will be able to get a conviction that the DA will decide not to file a case (in California the DA has three court days after arrest to decide, resulting in many Friday evening arrests), and the arrested person will be released without charges being filed.
If you have ever watched the TV show, "Cops" you see virtually all the arrests being made prior to any case being filed.
Tom
A line MP never made an "arrest," he made an "apprehension." When the perp was brought into the MP station, the desk officer, upon hearing the details, would make the arrest, if appropriate, which meant charges were levied.
But even then it was up to the miscreant's commander to convene a court martial. I can remember an instance when an announcement was made that any enlisted man caught driving while drunk would face a summary court martial and upon conviction woud definitely lose a stripe and possibly be sent to the stockade. Two weeks later, a popular sergeant received a long awaited promotion to E-6 and was arrested while driving home too drunk to stand up from the NCO club that evening. He was brought to the orderly room the following morning by MP's after spending the night in the cooler. The C.O. decided not to prosecute the case, and no entry went into the sergeant's record.
Tom
If you have ever watched the TV show ...
The only thing I use a TV for is watching railfan videos :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
I wish him the best and hope he gets through whatever he is dealling with right now.
You are just now thinking of that? When we have laws which allow the arrest and detention without charges or communication by those detained, that should be the first thing you think of.
When they came for the Arabs and Muslims, I said nothing because I am not an Arab or Muslim .....
Tom
I truly miss him and hopefully, he will be safe. Is it too much of a coincidence that the 'birds are dying fast only now? :-(
David
----Choo Choo
To tide you over, here's one that I don't think I've posted here yet:
I'd give you another shot or two of the same GO, but the server seems to have gone down within the past five minutes, and I can't give you anything until it comes back.
I did a lot of Sea Beach photography in the fall.
Oh, that's too bad. Maybe it's time to go here: dixiesys.com
:)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
#3 West End Jeff
Taken from the May 2002 Farewell to the Redbirds MoD trip
3004-3009 had the brighter flourescent bulbs with the same type of lighting fixtures. Those cars were as bright as the current 142(a)/143.
R142
Seriously, if you do an automotive 'boost', the goggles are a must.
This procedure was a result of TWU 100s protests. Nothing will protect you well but your common sense. The crew doing the R110A...three CIs and a Bombardier employee...most likely did everything properly...I suspect a chaffed cable made carbody contact.
The battery boxes in R142s are insulated from carbody...a short to chassis will not complete a circuit.
People think batteries store electric power. What in fact they do is convert electricity into a chemical reaction during charging and discharging. An electrical 'short' makes a very rapid chemical reaction with lots of Hydrogen and Oxygen. CI peter
37.5 volts is considered "intrinsically save" by the National Fire Code - meaning it will not generate sparks to ignite flammable gases. I believe the threshold is 44 volts. Automobiles will be going to a 42 volt battery system. This will not present a spark hazard for any gasoline fumes.
What in fact they do is convert electricity into a chemical reaction during charging and discharging. An electrical 'short' makes a very rapid chemical reaction with lots of Hydrogen and Oxygen
No sir. When batteries supply power, the hydrogen and oxygen combine to produce water. (Actually, you implied a hydrogen-oxygen fuel cell - the product for NiCad's or Edison cells is nickel or iron oxide). Hydrogen is produced when the batteries are being charged. Specifically, for NiCad's hydrogen is produced only when the batteries are being overcharged. A fairly simple charger with a full-charge detector would entirely eliminate hydrogen generation in NiCad's.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/oct2001/1898map.jpg
It has two things I noticed right off the bat. The only map I've seen that shows the LIRR Sheepshead Bay Branch alongside what looks like the precursor railroad to the Brighton Beach Line. And, the Franklin Avenue line is shown connecting to the early LIRR Brooklyn line, with all the street level stops on that line shown.
You will notice that the LIRR Manhattan Beach Line is not directly next to the Brighton for most of its run. See this map.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/whistone.html
You can actually see what is left of the line when you travel westbound on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. Just before the Shea Stadium station, you can see the remnants of what was left of the line as it meets up with the main line. And on the other side, you can sort of make out what is left of the Central line as it goes near the Home Depot.
This brings me to my first point. How come San Fran had so many problems with their Boeing LRVs, while their Bredas started up with no problems? Yet in Boston, they had no problems with the Boeing Vertols, but the Bredas have been sitting in the yards for years? I realize that despite being similar the San Fran and Boston trollies are not the same, with San Fran getting Trap doors and all on their Boeings, while Boston opted for Low Floor on their Bredas. However, does anyone else find it odd that the two TAs basically changed roles in the purchasing of the two LRVs?
The book mentions a 50mph speed limit for the Boeing LRVs, is this even legal under the FRA's definition of a Light Rail Transit system? I thought that the FRA defined LRT sytems as being slower than 45 mph, does anyone know when this might have changed?
Finally, possibly the most enjoyable thing about the book is that it's out of date. It alludes to both SEPTA and Dayton buying the Boeing Vertol LRVs. First, did Dayton ACTUALLY consider making a rail-based transit system? I've heard of the joke website with the Miami Valley Transportation system, but were they actually thinking of building a light rail transit system? And second, was SEPTA considering buying the Boeing LRVs? I'm assuming that they would have been purchased in lieu of the K-cars, but does anyone know if they would have been for the 101, 102 lines or the Subway-Surface lines?
Thanks, thats about all I can think of for now.
As to the Breda's, MUNI's had lots of problems with them at first, but seem to have solved most of them. Boston's Type 8's are simply junk. Somebody didn't do their engineering homework.
Breda does seem to have won first prize in the Ugly Car Contest. Both the MUNI Breda's and the Type 8's are plug ugly.
It is not so twisted. Light rail refers to light duty, not the weight of an individual car. Generally light rail cars are narrow enough to run on streets (whether they do so or not), and run in shorter configurations than heavy (duty) rail cars. The Chicago L is probably closer to light rail than heavy rail, although always categorized as heavy rail.
Tom
Chuck Greene
I can't imagine the FRA defining LRT speeds, since in closed systems not attached to the national rail network they have no jurisdiction. In any case the system speed limit in Los Angeles for the Green Line LRT is 55 mph, and the design speed is higher.
Tom
Since the 142s have taken over most of the IRT and the 160s planning for the IND/BMT, are they planning to get rid of "variety" in the subways and "standardize" the system with only the same two looking cars 142 and 143? Although they are advanced, are they planning to have different designs of the new trains, so that the system would just like what we have now.. 40s slant and modified, 32s 38 etc...Or are they more into function over form? thanks!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
With the pre-May 4 postings, there has been absoultely NOTHING on the fare increase since the fare went up.
Very strange for SubTalk.
It'll be nice to find out whether the MTA is bluffing about unlimiteds bought at the old rate or not. But we can't find that out till tomorrow at the earliest, when supposedly $4 Fun Passes will no longer work.
I also do wonder what the MTA will give me for my 2 leftover $4 Fun Passes. If I can't get a check for $8, can I send them a check for $2 and get a $10 Pay Per Ride (good for 6 rides)? I'll lose value if they send me an $8 Pay per ride or a $7 Fun Pass and a $1 Pay per ride. But again, it's too early to find out.
I'm sitting 178 miles from New York, and there's been zilch here on the MTA's increases. Meanwhile, here in Baltimore the Maryland Transit Administration (our scandal-ridden MTA) has announced a .25 cent rise in the base fare ($1.60, a quarter more than the current $1.35). Other than a piece in the local rag, there's been nothing since. The general assesment on the local transit BBS's here has been "oh, hum).
---Choo Choo
The Straphangers' Campaign, a transit watchdog group, sued last week to try to block the increase, arguing that millions of commuters would be irreparably harmed.
A Manhattan judge refused to block the increase after MTA lawyers argued that reprogramming 12,000 pieces of equipment, including all 4,500 city buses, to accept the old fare would be a logistical nightmare. The MTA also said it would lose $1.2 million a day in revenue to a delayed fare hike.
But Manhattan state Supreme Court Justice Louis York scheduled a hearing for Friday to hear evidence on the matter, and said he may then roll back the increases.
So unless Yogi Berra makes a surprise appearance in front of the judge, it's over. :)
I'll be on the lookout for Fun Passes tomorrow.
---Choo Choo
Give the guy a break, rents in Manhattan are so high, you do what you have to. At least he is not dumpster diving behind restaurants for food. :-)
Tom
What do you think the reader will say tomorrow when you swipe a $4 MetroCard through? Just so I know what to look for.
---Choo Choo
Wait untill the weather gets really nice!
I imagine I'll walk home as well.
I wonder why they're all picking on that photo.
When it showed up in the NYT, I emailed Joe and he knew nothing about it.
---Choo Choo
My sister told me more than once that if I were to live in the city and use the subway every day to get to work, as she did for 12 years, I would feel differently about it. She may be right. I've looked at the subway from a railfan'e perspective ever since my first ride on those shiny new R-32s on July 21, 1965.
And yes, I remember Mister Ed mooing also. Wow ... three in ONE! :)
"I was checking off the cows when this horse walks up, looks me straight in the puss and says, 'Mmmmmmmmmmmoooooooooooooooooooooooo'".
You left me out, Fred. I guess I'm not a Blighton Bitch aficiando !!
Bill "Newkirk"
And the makeovers are all positive, in fact a S/A I talked to, was on Kings Highway on the Slum-Beach line and she though it was THE MOST PITIFUL PLACE TO WORK OUT OF. That was what she said, and was so GLAD to be back of the Brighton Line.
My station and mall, Newkirk Plaza is undergoing a makeover too! Does that say a lot for a LACK of makeovers on your line Fred? Huh?
Doesn't anyone also remember when then the New York Times did the same? I don't remember what the article was about or the choice of the picture's relevance to it, but it was in the Science section for all I know.
www.newyorkish.com
What gives? The MTA is trying to cheat me out of money again probably. There couldn't be a fare hike or anything, I would've seen something about it posted somewhere. I haven't seen any signs on token booths, walls, inside subway cars, ANYWHERE.
What the heck is going on?!?
[/sarcasm]
Probably facetiously enunciating what 80% of subway riders are thinking right now.
Incidentally, the main entrance to that station has no MVM's, although there are a few by the Brighton escalator.
I've seen fare hike posters and the news has plastered us with so much information on this for the last month or so.
When it comes to myself, I always read the signs once I read a station. A station I enter almost everyday, I see at least 2-5 advisories each week. It's good to know.
It has been a long term theroy of mine that the classic rude new yorker steriotype resonates from the fact that many New Yorkers are immigrants not just now but over the course of the last 100 years and pretend to understand when they do not understand many words or expressions that natives are speaking or posted on posters.
Other factors include the move from a homogenious society to a mixed ethnicity society with different social norms thus the rude steriotype
There weren't signs in every language?
What about people who speak Swahili, Maltese or Basque?
Even if we ignore these languages, I didn't see a single sign in Haitian, Arabic, Polish, Korean, Urdu or Hindi. The only signs I saw were in Chinese, Spanish and Russian.
I think the problem lies not in which languages the MTA can make signs in, but rather that people expect to be able to live in the United States without learning the English language.
Agreed. I believe that public documents in the United States (and, by extension, signs in the subway are public documents) should be in English only, and that commercial, non-government signs should also be in English (although I would not infringe on the right of the business owner to display signs in another language). Those immigrants who have been the most successful, as a general rule, are those who have immersed themselves in American language and culture, adding their traditions to those already part of our mix but fundamentally becoming Americans - not Anglo-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, or any other hyphenated form, but simply Americans.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HAve poor eysight (like myself, I can't read most signs without glasses)
The MTA operations need to be treated as a customer service driven operation. Although I agree that english emmersion is the best way to really pick up the english language one must also think of all the fireign tourists who pump momey into our city and the fact that having them usse mass transit and pay the base fare makes good business sense
In a world of satalite dishes that you can view tv in any langualge you want, many new arrivals are at a severe disadvantage becasue othe options exist and dooming them to low paying jibs
It is good to reatin one's culture and weave it into our great society . that is what makes america great but you must assimulate your public life to succeed
It's a weekday evening, 5:40 PM, and a Flushing-bound 7 pulls into Queensboro Plaza. Conductor announced, "this a Flushing bound 7 EXPRESS train making EXPRESS stops on the EXPRESS track. Next stop is 61-Woodside, followed by Junction Blvd, Willets Point, and Main St. EXPRESS, EXPRESS, EXPRESS. Stand clear of the closing doors." Then some schmuck sticks his foot in the door and asks, "Local?"
Better yet, the same station, same track, same day, but at 9:00 AM. Some schmuck asks, "Express?"
NO - don't tell me - I don't want to know.
Arti
I'll give you a lead. Go to Bowling Green, to the upper level mezzanine adjacent to the NB platform. Look behind the MVM. Thousands of MetroCards!
Go and swipe.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I also found a much smaller stash in my local station. I went through a small handful and found one with a $1.00 balance.
Even if so, you'll probably find a balance here and there.
I suspect it will be a short term windfall, limited to one time when a person uses a pre May 4th card for the first time with the new fare. Then it will taper off to the regular amount of discarded cards with value, which will interest only the regular scavengers.
Tom
We do have posts here very often about how stupid some people are who never read any signs and are shocked, SHOCKED when their train is out of service due to a GO.
He must have been living in a cave (of his own making).
I would take my own advice on this one but I just spent 10 minutes writing this post.
Anytime you put "As I said before" in a post, it is you wasting bandwith, more than the original poster. If people cannot find your original post, let them do without.
Tom
However, I chose to do something about it! I wrote about it on subtalk. Now, I think my metrocard should work.
Or, I could just try my jumping skills.
Your card might have $1.50 on it.
But the fare is now $2.00.
Therefore $1.50 is Insufficent fare.
I'm not surprised.
On the day of the fare hike, a relative of mine boarding at
(omitted) Station on the (omitted brah) subway line in the
Bronx, reports to having swiped in at a turnstile and it only
deducted $1.50 from her card....
STILL $ 1.50 by this count.
GOTTA Love that MTA Metrocard PC!!
---Choo Choo.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Nah.. by the time someone gets out to it.. It'll be rigged fixed.
PS..What color is money? Same color for this line, bud! ;)
I won't be able to check until May 15th, and it'll probably be fixed by then.
DAMN!
---Choo Choo
The MTA did a failr good job. If all the asstute poster onthis board only found one or two problems systemwide.
A fairy good job
You shoud've played with their system, you are lucky you've checked you balance. My version of scavenger hunt paid off to some degree, I have a $6 Metrocard thanks to all those who discarded their cards with $1.50 on it because they forgot to check their cards after seeing "Insufficient Fare".
The name is temporary as I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
http://underground.goumba.net/
I know some of the images are asking for trouble, but they're remporary as well.
Right now I only have a gallery of up of most recent photos. Photos -> 5/4/2003.
Subway grrl
To my surpirse, the sign had been covered by a new one! I am curious about the following:
1) How much did it cost to put up said sign?
2) How many commuters were left waiting on the platform for a "Rockaways" train which will never arrive?
3) How many commuters actually use the stairway in question?
And you wonder why we have a repeat of the 1975 fiscal crisis. Government is government, before and always!
Regarding NJ Transit train consists:
Is is possible to use Electric Multiple Units such as the Arrow I or III to pull the Comet I-V cars. The reason I ask is becuase I remember riding the <7> past Sunnyside Yard during July of last year seeing this consist (Though my eyes may have been playing tricks on me as it was about 8:30AM).
Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
OR, it was a Comet IB (a Arrow I converted into a Comet coach)
A comet IB is much more likely scenario, given the fact that pretty much all the 1Bs are assigned to Newark Division (with the rest in Atlantic city), and the Raritan Valley line's been dumping them on the NEC as they get Comet IIGOH trainsets.
Actually, NJ Transit considers the Atlantic City Line as part of the "Newark Division".
Hope this helps. Check with Jgtshu or other NJT workers at Railroad.net for the supplemental info.
It's an ANACHRONISM much like Arnines, jargon of a bygone past in the "Transit Authority" ... TMO is the TrainMaster, "TMO" specifically, the "TrainMaster's OFFICE" where you'd sign in, pick up your stuff, breathe on the Trainmaster for fitness for duty, grab your handles and go do your run. They call them "Dispatchers" now ...
In the old days though, the TMO was the pope on a rope. The person who would PERSONALLY chew your butt for being two minutes late. :)
When I started as a conductor, the TWU job paid $357 a week in 1970 cash money. I don't think (adjusted for inflation) that TWU titles pay so nicely THESE days ... but if the TMO wanted to "talk to you" you cowered in FEAR. No need to go "downtown" ... nope, you bought your penance in the TOWER. :)
My father said when he was a C/R, like you mention, the Man was the TrainMaster, and there weren't so many superintendants over him. Now there are probably a good number of supts who wield the power. When something goes down now you usually answer the the super, because before you even get off that train he's been called.
But yes, nothing beats one guy who you CAN'T chit when you could instead have adminiswigs, deputy junior adminiswigs and senior deputy adminiswigs all in a row who have no idea of what a TRAIN is. :)
As for all those supervisors on top of each other, I think that's really dumb management structure. It seems like nobody could be held accountable for anything. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians.
I suppose this is all better today somehow though. At least the trains are clean. :)
But it DOES make me seriously wonder how we managed to run a railroad, ESPECIALLY since most of what we were running was BROKEN. :(
Whoops ... still, it was a FAT check for a 19 year old. :)
Maybe, but we still get TMOs charging capital jobs whenever there is a G.O.
Probably an experiment to see if it was worth doing the other M-1's in the same fashion. With the M-1's going out, don't expect to see others being done.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14165-2003May4.html
--Randy B.
[BEGIN PLUG]Listen to his show from 10a-1p Eastern on ESPN Radio!![/END PLUG]
The correct spoof HTML syntax would be;
<PLUG>Listen to his show from 10a-1p Eastern on ESPN Radio!!</PLUG>
Shame to see them go...but one way to look at it is, it is the 21st Century after all. The Metrocard is up there with Washington Metro's farecards, and is far more convenient to use when it comes to the free transfer (AFAIK, DC buses still don't accept the Metro farecards for transfer; you have to get the separate transfer ticket at the station you boarded at, and there is still no bus-to-subway transfer).
At least SEPTA and MBTA still issue the tokens, right...? :-) Don't recall about the CTA, though...
Don't feel ashamed anyway. AFAIK, the return slot is anyone's territory. :) One time, I was going to buy a snapple at a vending machine and I found 50 cents in the return slot! Easy money!!
Works almost every time.
MARTA was a flat-fare system since the beginning. In 1979, when the system opened, the fare was 25 cents. There was no need for tokens, but there was, and still is, a Transcard system for unlimited rides. A customer put their quarter (or the sum of coins) into the slot and they went itn. When the fare went above 25 cents, they just set up token machines and had the turnstiles accept tokens. It's been like that ever since. The Transcard system gives a customer unlimited rides for either a calandar day(s), weekend, week or month.
Since computers were still bukly and expensive in 1979, MARTA decided that if they were going to have a flat fare (and the flat fare was determined by political reasons), there was no reason to invest the millions for a high-tech computer system to handle stuff like number of rides, distnace, and date. Since tokens were common back them, they decided to go with a relatively cheap fare system already in use.
They've gone over 20 years with the status quo, but now the turnstiles are falling apart and are a maintenance nightmare, with all its mechainical parts. Plus it's sooooo easy to evade fare.
MARTA signed a contract with Cubic for a new fare system. The new system will have Smartcards where a radio signal from the card will unlock the turnstile. Also the barriers will supposedly be at least 7 feet high with glass doors to prevent jumping.
Well, if clerks had forgotten to tape off turnstiles, I bet a lot of returned tokens were to be found in slots today/yesterday, since 100% of tokens put into turnstiles would fail.
1sf9
Didn't know return slots existed.
Just so you didn't cross the line and stuff the return slots.
Tom
Whoa, but is that an ugly exit! At the top of the stairs, you find two exit-only iron maidens. Past them is a circuitous graffiti-filled coridor that finally takes you to a staircase that exits into a commercial building on the north side of Fulton, opposite William.
You can almost imagine that this portal to the subway once had better days, back when it was still an entrance. The mezzanine after you leave the iron maidens is rather spacious for the purpose, but the token booth is long-since gone. There's just nothing there, except the graffiti.
It's got to be the ugliest subway exit I've seen in Manhattan below Central Park, although I'm sure there's far worse elsewhere. This is the Exit that Time Forgot.
---Choo Choo
Only two HEETs let you out. Many times, when I catch the M at 9th Street to ride to 2 Broadway, I have to wait a minute of so to get out.
The last time it happened, I wondered what would happen in an emergency if an entire train tried to bust out of there a la the front door of "The Station" in Rhode Island.
At least underground in the CBD, perhaps there needs to be a way to open the gates from the inside in an emergency. Kind of like those exists in a theater -- push, alarm will sound -- guarded by a video camera to discourage vandalism and fare beating. Worth a thought.
Here's a pic of one.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_148.jpg
Theroretically increasing escape routes at night and on weekends. What the straphanger campign should have been advocating if they were truely interested in what's in the best interest of the public was enhancements to the plan such as dedicated monitored cctv, remote exit gates and emergency call boxes
The Subway system is a death trap in case of emergency at night and on weekends with many entraces/exits completely sealed off plus zero supervision to detect and respond to emergencies. Monitored CCTV on platforms and stairways would allow help to get there quicker
As for Heets when they are not locked being any less safe then a setup of just turnstyes in the case of a stanpeed that is just not true. Both in lage syanpeed type situations are not ideal. Exit gates unlocked exit gates even those monitored BY CCTV would be inviting fae beatere
With the fare hike, LIRR prices have gone up dramatically, 25% on all tickets just about, and it is time to call for better service. As a resident of Merrick, (Babylon Line) i take the 7:35 from Flatbush change at jamaica, and board on of the only St. Albans bound trains, and have spoken with many riders from that station.
The LIRR will not stop trains there because of lack of ridership, which is obsurd, because in this part of the city, its a bus to jamaica, of the LIRR, which is reflecting on stations like East New York, and Nostrand Av, which have EXTREMELY HIGH service, but are deserted most of the day, but the A/C lines are a block away from the Nostrand Ave stations, and Broadway junction is atop of East New York practically.
What i need help is trying to get heard by the LIRR, and have this station put to full service, imagine a stop with 8 tph on the LIRR, in rush hour, because all trains stop, even midtown expresses and from out east, it is a one min. stop, so it cant do much, and will help a lot more than it hurts
Perhaps you can form an organization of riders, and have everyone put in enough money into an account for, say, two months of monthly LIRR tickets. The tickets would be held in escrow and purchased when service reached a certain level. Then you go to the MTA and say look, suburban station X has just X riders, but if you give use the same service we have Y people ready to start riding. Here is the money.
I'd say that's your best chance.
If it doesn't work, you and the other memebers could use the interest on the escrow account to fund you organization.
How is that better? Rules may be rules, but if anything, I'd think that announcing transfers before the train stops would give riders more time to collect themselves.
Mark
Policies and inconsistent application like this seem to show that management holds employees in as much contempt as they do riders.
Mark
Times Square on the #2/#3 is probably even longer.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Mark
That's how I used to play it. Major transfer points I'd actually do it both, entering the station and in the station, this way no TSS could nail me for not making my announcements with the doors open.
Of course if they wanted to be a real prick, announcements are ONLY to be made with the doors open so they could nail me for the first announcement. But it never happened.
Don't take MY word for it, click HERE to listen to Mister Ed!
You do know that Ed actually once said, "Mmmmmmmoooooooooooooooo," during one episode. Cracked me up.
There were about four cars on the adjacent track waiting to be loaded onto flat cars. I've been told that some sort of agreement with Bombardier, retired M-1's are being sent to Mexico, possibly to circumvent the asbestos issue when scrapping them. These cars going out intact, minus the speed control and radios.
The problem with the M-7 yaw dampers has been solved and M-7's on the property should be retrofitted. I am assuming the ones leaving the factory, are already modified. Other than that, there seems to be no real problems with the M-7's and deliveries are coming in. M-7's are said to running on the West Hempstead branch.
Before the LIRR order is complete, there will be a hiatus and Metro North will receive their M-7's. I guess this spells the end of the NYC 1100's. I'm not sure if Metro North's M-7's will look identical to the LIRR's as far as yellow front striping or not. Time will tell.
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
You still have time, they are running last I heard.
Bill "Newkirk"
The LIRR and Metro North M-1's are going to the scrap heap. The Metro North (New Haven Division) M-2's, on the other hand, are scheduled to keep running for at least another 10 years. Although we are told that they will receive overhauls, no funds have been appropriated, and about 20% of the fleet is out of service on any given day.
That's what you get when one jurisdiction (Conn. DOT) has ownership of (most of) the rolling stock, and another (MTA) operates the railroad.
the M7's will only replace about 30 % of M1 fleet and all the ACMU 1100 cars
They never got adequate maintenance and now are in poor condition.
wayne
No reefing for the M-1's. They are being sent on flat cars to Mexico, we believe for scrapping. Possibly to avoid the asbestos issue. Months back someone here on SubTalk reported seeing a couple of M-1's out west, and it wasn't for overhaul either.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just because a car "can make fifty" is not a good reason all by itself to keep it. I personally like the M1 (a bit of railbuff in me and respect for the Budd Co.'s accomplishments). However, the M7's introduce:
1) comfort and amenities which will help increase ridership; the amenities are similar to what is offered on the DM30s.
2) a car built and supported by an existing manufacturer, not one which left the railcar business two decades ago
3) ADA compliance beyond what the M1 offers
4) improved propulsion and control systems, and improved doors (the M7's single leaf doors are more in-line with FRA regulations. If even one leaf is stuck on an M1, both leaves have to be locked shut. This is not true for the subway).
5) Lower maintenance costs
So it's time for the old cars to move on.
This has always struck me as a ridiculous regulation that may make sense somewhere but certainly does not make sense on the LIRR. Has anyone cracked the rationale?
Mark
When the C-3 bilevel coaches were new, they would reportedly automatically lock out any door that wouldn't close after three tries. I don't know if they still operate this way. In my former biz, we called that a denial-of-service attack waiting to happen.
Mark
I do know that the single-leaf door feature on the M7 was in response to the FRA reg, though...
LIRR simply thought a lifespan of an EMU is 30 years to excuse their backyard/toolshed-style mainenance, and got the PCAC and Long Island Republicans to agree with them that replacements were an entitlement. I regard it as a reward for bad managament. 34 year old Budd cars should not be getting cut up.
I doubt all the GE M-1's on MN will get it when they have 1100's to get rid of too. All the M-1's on MN got a GOH.
--Mark
I hear speculation of scrapping more than reuse. It was a deal worked out where Bombardier would take back retired M-1's. I they are to be reused, how do you say " can I have an M.A. reset please " in Spanish ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Asbestos is a reasonably good fireproofing and insulating material - but today there's Fiberglas(R) fr insulation and other, better fireproofing material.
Click the link below to view photos:
Railfan Trip Photos (4/17, 4/21)
The highlight of the ride is trip through the mile long newly restored tunnel, where the Laurel Line interrurbans once tread. The tunnel has new trackage and low wattage sodium vapor lamps to light the way. The funny part is goaning sound of the bull gears make it sound like a ride on the subway ! After we came out in the daylight, we changed ends, and it was back through the tunnel and the next stop at a siding at The Iron Furnace, where a short tour was held. I was told by the operator that plans call for a three mile extension of the line. A bit of the old Laurel Line has been reborn ! Also, there are two grade crossings where the conductor flags the car over the crossing.
It seems that Buckingham Valley's museum cars are all here. These are the ones that ran on the Penn's Landing line. Something real nice until the city pulled the plug and shut the operation down.
Their website is www.ectma.org
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
I wouldn't hold my breath on Electric City acquiring any Redbirds or any other subway cars. Electric City seems to be trolley and interrurban oriented. They have their hands full with equipment from the Philadelphia area. In the restoration shop there seems to be a "Hog Island" car undergoing a rebuild.
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
"... tell the operator to throw open the throttle ..."
As a qualified trolley operator at another museum(s) they may give me a little handle time, but there wouldn't be full parallel operation if I'm being "piloted". I'm looking forward to that tunnel irrespective of how fast we go.
I doubt it! When we visited ECTM in 2001, they won't "honor" any
other Museums Pass [Branford or Seashore] and you spect handle time.
Also be aware, that at ECTM, there is a fee just to visit the museum,
without riding the "Trolley". It's two separate tickets. Let us
know, how they treat you in August.
Also the distance from the Museum to the loading platform is greater
then the hike from Sprague to Farm River Road and when you go
"Steamtown" will be in full swing. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
All because their track is connected to the National Railroad system.
Ask any of the steam guys about keeping their qualifications up. It's a constant hassel.
And all because of National Capital's 1987 head-on and a guy on ConRail named Ricky Gates.
Plus they are a governement operation vs. non-profit. Also I think the trolley line goes right past the baseball field, if they ran all night we could walk from the hotel to the trolley stop & do the same to/from the field ... hmmm something for their suggestion box :-)
BTW, the out-of-town players stay in that hotel too.
The trolley line does go near Lackawanna County Stadium, but the line has not been rebuilt that far yet. For now you can only go about 1/4 of a mile past the south portal of the Crown Avenue tunnel. The plan is to rebuild the line all the way to the County Visitor's Center, and then run shuttle buses from there up to the stadium. It will be awesome when that happends, since traffic getting off that mountain, especially after a concert, is horrible.
Yes, "The Radisson Lackawanna Station Hotel" is basically the most luxurious hotel in Scranton....and rightly so.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Is it possible to do Steamtown and the trolley museum in one day?
It's the same parking lot for both & the Trolley departs from the
Steamtown Platform. But, I don't think you can by a combination
ticket for both. One's is NPS and the other Lackawanna County.
So IMO, you could do both in the same day. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Heh heh heh heh....No!
1. ECTM is NOT part of Steamtown USA
2. Steamtown USA itself has not existed for over 15 years
3. It is now Steamtown National Historic Site
4. ECTM is NOT part of Steamtown National Historic Site
5. They just are located in the same area and share some tracks
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"The Electric City Trolley Museum Association is a volunteer non-profit group that supports the activities of the Electric City Trolley Museum in downtown Scranton, Pennsylvania, USA, at the Steamtown National Historic Site."
They really shouldn't say "at" but instead "next to."
---Choo Choo
P.S.
- From the hotel bar, if you time it right, the steam train will go right by your window.
- There is also a nice mine tour across town that used elect tugs on rails.
Yes, the Lackawanna County Mine Tour. The most famous attraction in Lackawanna County. I've been on it at least four times, and they all occured before I finished 8th Grade. If you haven't guessed, I'm from Lackawanna County.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yes, but if it's Friday Night Happy Hour, I'll do the photoing tommorow.
---Choo Choo
So YOU were the little brat that knew more than the tour guide :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a lot to see, but you can do it in a day, and if you cap it off with a night game at the stadium you'll have a little guy who sleeps very well that night < grin >
Make sure to ask about the "tour" of the shops, because you have to get on a list & be there at specific time (no extra charge). My tour guide was William Clark, yes related to THAT William Clark.
Not all. Some are still stored in Philly. A few cars are stored
at a bus garage outside of Scranton.
I remember riding on the Market-Frankfort line after leaving the tunnel, looking down at a fenced-in lot that had some equipment stored for Penn's Landing. I heard some equipment was raided by vandals sripping the cars of copper and brass. What became of those cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There is equipment stored at several locations; the regular carbarn is a great facility but is nowhere near the size needed to house the entire BVTA collection. There are cars at Germantown in Philly and the bus garage in Scranton; until recently there were cars stored in Dushore and Buckingham, but I believe they've been evacuated. ECTMA is doing a great job of resurrecting the collection and getting it operating on a real interurban ROW, something that has never been done with such a heavily-built line as the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley. I hear that they're regauging the trucks on their 80-series car; does anyone know what's happening with the 46?
Frank Hicks
Thank You
What makes a line very good? What makes a railcar really cool? Seeing as how you need to make the trip anyway, why not enjoy yourself and report back?
2. Is it possable a M7 shows up on the PJ Line?
Sorry, no, the Port Jeff is only electrified as far east as Huntington, and the M7s are electric-only. You may see an M7 along the way, though, or if you can find out when and where they'll be, you might be able to plan to connect with one.
Mark
The M7s don't come out to play as frequently on weekends, but you might see one or two laid up at Jamaica. Look in the yard north and west of the station proper. You probably won't get one running to Hicksville or Huntington.
And is it true that the PJ Line was electrified all the way to Port Jefferson at one time?
Nope, never.
Mark
Maybe he confused it with another dead president? Port Washington is all electric.
So the M7 don't run much on weekends and to Huntington as well. But I think that can change by time the summer comes and the M7 order is done.
The contract won't be anywhere near fulfilled this year, but the M7s should be showing their faces in more places as time goes on. A couple of months ago, they weren't carrying passengers at all. You'll get that M7 ride soon enough.
BTW I did see a M7 running on the Main Line going towards Penn Station a bit past the Woodside Station
Yup, a small handful carrying passengers, and another handful running light.
Mark
What might have confused your friend is that there has been talk about electrifying out to Port Jefferson. It's never gotten beyond the talk stage.
Since 12 car trains exist only on LIRR, they have many of them, while MN has none, and such a train will lose 150 seats, it might make some sense to divert some of the M-7 order originally destined to LIRR to Metro North, and modify some MN M-3's to operate on the LIRR.
The benefits would be as follows:
1. MN would be completely M-7 (except for Bombardier locomotive-hauled coaches).
2. LIRR would be completely M-1/M-3 (except for bi-level locomotive-hauled coaches).
3. With LIRR operating M-1/M-3 and MN operating M-7, each railroad could maintain less spare parts inventory instead of a spare parts inventory for both classes of cars.
4. Since M-1/M-3 are not compatible with the M-7, the yard crews won't have "nightmares" making up consists if items 1 and 2 are in effect.
5. With most if not all M-7's going to MN, LIRR yard, shop and road crews would not have to be retrained in operating M-7's.
Your comments are welcome.
Regards,
Danny
As for spare parts inventory, they already do joint orders on expensive parts that are infrequenttly ordered.
As for LIRR crew training, that's already been done, or is being done.
Whether thet are compatible or not, I have never heard one way or the other. They do have the same coupler. NJT Arrow-3/AC/GOH did run in multiple with unrebuilt Arrow-2/DC on the M&E.
M-7 and M-1/3? Most decidedly not compatible. They can couple for emergency towing only.
Mark
PLUS it costs too much and u know what MNR and LIRR stand for
(MENTAL NOT REQUIRED) (LOGIC ISNT REALLY REQUIRED)
I though it was 5, 10, 15, 30, 35, 60, 80 (7 -aspect)
35 used to be 45. FRA made them lower it, which is why the Far Rock branch is so slow.
And is not the same on other equipment.
Mark
Right, what you see when the line goes through Huntington isn't too nice, but you'll see worse from the Ronkonkoma line.
In that they have no full time Railfan Window they are not cool. In that the upper lever really gives you a nice lateral view and neat feeling of flying I would say they are cool.
As far as the M-7s go, besides the fact that the M-7s are EMUs and electrified third rail only goes up to Huntington, making the Huntington-to-Port Jefferson section diesel only, the M-7s right now are on the following lines as of late:
Ronkonkoma (1 trip)
Long Beach (4 trips or more)
Hempstead (2 trips or more)
Far Rockaway (3 trips or more)
West Hempstead (1 trip)
Babylon (this is a ???)
Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, as I am only going by observation...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Not any more. 4:20 out of Flatbush to Far Rockaway was an M7 set this past Sunday. I wasn't on it, but my train connected with it at Jamaica.
Mark
On the IRT, it is the opposite, even on a two track line there is only track 3 and 4. The middle express track there is track M in both directions.
IRT is 1, 2, 3, 4 going straight across S/B lcl to N/B exp.
So you can have 2 and 3 (ex: White Plains line) or 1 and 4 (ex: Broadway line) as well as M. Interestingly, IRC the Flushing line is 1, 2 and M[A,B,C] (which means all tracks except M would be southbound by numbering standards).
But I've enever seen 3 and 4. That would be IND/BMT (for example, Far Rockaway is F3A and F4A).
Does it cost 35.00 for all trips or just one trip?
Where do I mail the money to get the ticket?
When do I have to mail in for them?
Where will this trip be meeting?
As to the others, I can guess, and hopefully others who know better can give better answers:
Does it cost 35.00 for all trips or just one trip?
I interpret it as being $35.00 PER TRIP. So for all 4 trips, it would be $140.00
Where do I mail the money to get the ticket?
Answered on the page linked to by the Choo.
When do I have to mail in for them?
As soon as possible. Other sources told me that they don't cash the check until the day of the trip, or possibly later, but DON'T TAKE THIS AS FACT, it's just what I heard.
Where will this trip be meeting?
Don't know, details will probably be mailed to you with the tickets.
The IRT SMEE cars leave from Grand Central track #1 (6/7 & 6/28)
The IND R1/9 cars leave from the Chambers St. Station of the J line.
(6/8 & 6/29)
All trips start at 10:30 AM.
-Nick
I didn't hear this news. Link?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030505-111513-3293r
http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/2182196/detail.html
---Choo Choo
Only recently has service been restored for the people along the old El route, but with "Bus Rapid Transit" (BRT)
Here's a link I found: (not mine)
http://www.geocities.com/bostonmbta/orange.html
Mark
and here is a map on this site.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
Pieces of 'Old Man of Mountain' for Sale on eBay
Mark
Officials halt some Old Man eBay sales
Former trolley "transformer building" for sale on the SW side of Chicago. Looks cool.
I was out Sunday and I saw a set of the R142/R142A (can't really tell them apart) and the cars were numbered 11XX - specifically I saw 1142. I thought they were going to be in the 6XXX - 7XXX series, not 11XX.
Anyone can explain for me? Thanks Again.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I believe DTrain22 has some pictures of them in testing on the Dyre Line.
If anything, they are being renumbered for allotment of the R160's.
Though 1140 might have been connected to 1131..the train is right though.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html
(Sorry, never learned how to do the HTML on this site)
This table was copied from the R142 page on this site. The R160 page indicates this to be an order of 1700 cars. There's still a gap between the Bombardier order and the Kawasaki order. If the 1101-1220 option was renumbered 7181-7200, and the 1221-1250 option was 7731-7760, I believe there would still be numbers available for the R160, though, I'd think their numbers would surround the R143's (and R110A's if they're still around) anyway. 7761-8000 (240), 8011-8100 (90), 8321-8650 (330), then 8651-9690 (1040), and there you go. Seventeen hundred cars fitting in to some kind of numbering sequence.
Or, if you really want to go Hi-Lo, try 0001-1040 (1040) and then 8321-8980 (660). Bus companies have buses with numbers less than 1000 with leading zeroes (a good example off the top of my head is Omnitrans, San Bernardino, California), why not the subway?
Ex. MTA Maryland has year 2000 NABI 416's. These are numbered 0001 and up. 2001 NABI's are 0101 and up, 2002 Neoplan AN440LF's are 0201 and up...
wayne
R142 made by Bombardier
1101-1250
6301-7180
R142A made by Kawasaki
7211-7730
7731-7850 [option order]
The option order of the R142 was numbered in the 1100 range b/c the R142A already used the numbers from 72xx.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Gotta get those Dems elected so that they can do all that. No chance whatsoever that this can be done with Pataki and Bruno still in office.
Thank you.
Does anyone know how many redbirds will be used for work service and will they replace the very old and beat up R-21 MOW cars?
Which cars are being concidered? R-33WF single units??
And will they break up married pairs for rider cars, or keep lets say a R-36 married pair for rider car.....someone fill me in!!
Thanks!!!
I have seen nothing to indicate any R-36s of either type or R-26/28/29s will be retained.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
One or two pair have already been sunk.
New Jersey purchased 250 cars for its reef program. Isn't that the precise number of married-pair cars at Corona?
That has already been done.
-Stef
IMO, a pair of R-33ML's should be preserved in today's color scheme.
-Stef
To the best of my knowledge Branford has no plans to obtain any additional subway cars at this time. There are some members of the museum who would like to do so, of course, but there are issues of track space and, most importantly, cost that would have to be overcome first, not to mention getting approval from the Board - approval that, while it might now be possible if the issues mentioned above were resolved, would under no circumstances be guaranteed. We have friends in high places, but remember: it's the Shore Line Trolley Museum, not the Subway Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's news to my ears.
Not to mention the first single-ended cars in the NYC subway system!
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/OURNEIGH.html
8-) ~ Sparky
Perhaps the ties didn't show, but they were usually there as seen in in this 1947 picture on busy Vermont Avenue in Los Angeles.
Tom
L.I.R.R.
(LOGIC IS REALLY REQUIRED)
No.
BTW what loop did you get your information on? News media, radio chatter, employee break room or emloyee friend.
And what would be required if NYCT decided to reopen a station that had been closed? For example, what would NYCT need to do if it decided to reopen Lex/18 for revenue service? Hypothetically, of course.
An unusual case; the station was scarcely used, physically decrepit, very close to Franklin and Park Place, and on a line who's future was uncertain at the time. Even so, there was community opposition to the closing.
Oh, I don't know. That always sounded like an urban legend.
Non-permanent changes do not require hearings. There were some bitter public complaints because the MannyB service changes while the north side was under construction--being non-permanent--did not require hearings, even though they were both dramatic and fairly long-lasting. But in the end, community objections did result in a minor change to the plan (extending the Grand St shuttle to W 4th).
It is hard to conceive of the scenario that would lead to any of the abandoned stations being re-opened. Of course, I understand that the question was hypothetical.
My usual M.O. in going home at night is to take the A train from Jay Street and switch at Broadway Junction for the L train. As there are 7 local stations between Jay Street and Broadway Juntion, the running time on the C is at least 7 or 8 minutes slower than the A.
Now when I have complained before about the lack of passenger information signs, I am told a new system is being put in place which will not be completed for another 8 years. But the dispatcher at Jay St. has a board which while not showing which specific train is coming does show whether there are other trains in the immediate vicinty. How do I know this; well I have heard him announce from time to time a downtown train is at Fulton Street, 3 stops away.
Well a C train arrived at 9:49. Figuring the next A train was only a minute or 2 behind, I decided that it would be best to wait for the next A train. Well it turned out the next train to arrive was another C train, 12 minutes later. The next A train did not arrve for 15 minutes..
The dipatche's board had to show no 8th Avenue service was imminent. I'm sorry, this guy had an obligation to annonce to passengers that the next Queens bound service was at least 10 minutes away so that passengers for Utica, Broadway Junction and Euclid are advised to take the C train in the station. Apoloists for the MTA, please don't tell me I had no right to be told about the next service. Often times when I am in London, if such a situation occurs, passengers are advised on the PA to take the train in the station.
This is late at night. Thanks to this incompetence, I got home 25 minutes later than needed. And the answer is not to always take the C train; the answer is to provide the information.
Here we go again.
From 168th all the way to Euclid, the C takes 10 minutes longer than the A.
From Jay to Euclid, the C takes 6 minutes longer than the A.
This is easily verified by consulting the posted schedules for the A and C (or by running a few timing experiments).
Bypassing a local stop saves 30-40 seconds, not 60 seconds or more.
Yes, an announcement would have been nice, but by letting a local pass there's always a risk of reaching one's destination late. The C train would have gotten you to Broadway Junction in 15 minutes.
Though you are certainly correct that more information would be wonderful, and we all hope that the MTA can greatly improve how much information they can provide us. But I don't think you can blame it all on the guy in the tower.
Is that true? I wasn't aware dispatcher's boards showed 10 or more minutes of prior trackage. When the dispatecher's board at GCT used to be visible, it only showed up to 59th St, or about 4 minutes of track.
At the same time, you can't just declare that it's the TA's fault that you got home 25 minutes later than needed. You've posted many times that announcements aren't made at Jay Street, so you were fully aware of the risk you were taking. The C takes 16 minutes from Jay to ENY and you had one right in front of you. The express A takes 11 minutes and runs every 8-10 (on average you'll have a 5 minute wait for an A if you show up at a random time). So if things were just going along average, you'd have gotten an A in 5 minutes and pulled into ENY at the same time the C you let pass by. If you got lucky, the A would have pulled in right behind the C and you'd have beaten the C to ENY by about 3 minutes.
You knew the risk. You gambled and tried to save 2 or 3 minutes. You lost -- big time in this case because there was some kind of service delay on the A.
You can lay some of the blame on the TA, but to be fair I think you've got to accept a sizeable chunk of it for yourself.
Even though the odds are against you even when things are running normally, I can understand waiting for the express. We all like a good express run. The thing I really don't get (although I realize it's not really why you posted) is why you didn't get on the 2nd C when it pulled in?
CG
My point is that as a regular rider, you should be aware of the general lack of high-quality announcements, the miniscule time savings that the express offers, and the frequency of service on both lines at that time -- and you should make your choice of trains accordingly. My opinion only, but I think you made a bad choice last night -- but yes, I realize that wasn't why you posted. A newcomer to the subways might not have that kind of background (of course, how many subway newbies were on the Jay street platform last night at 10 looking to go to a Fulton express stop -- probably none).
As an aside, given the crowding on the NYC subway in general, I wonder if the TA balks at improving service announcements in order to avoid overcrowding. Too much information can potentially be a bad thing. For example, when a local enters the station now some passengers will take it and others will wait for the express. With full information as to when the next train was coming, presumably everyone would make the same choice -- i.e. if the express is further away everyone jams the local, when the express comes it runs at lower than capacity.
CG
When I clear at 1:30 I catch the A at Bway=Nassau and can't get a seat. You're fortunate enough to not have to wait 20 minutes for the train.
From my experience there aren't many lines that don't see light ridership even late at night, especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
1) You vastly over estimate the time savings of an express
2) You don't know how to properly ride the NYC subway system
3) Announcements would be nice, but we know it's not gonna happen so deal with it
Once you can deal with the first two issues, you have permission to discuss the third.
---Choo Choo
This person has no "obligation" to tell you things he doesn't know, nor is this an example of "incompetence", since he did nothing wrong. If this incident bothers you so much, go complain at NYCTransit. Complaining here doesn't accomplish anything - unless you enjoy having everyone tell you it was your own fault.
You would only have to add 4 switches, and short stretch of new track without having to rearrange any of the old track. And service disruptions would be as minimal as possible: while the west switches are being put in the 4 and 5 would still be able access Flatbush and New Lots, and the east switches would only disrupt the line to Flatbush.
What do you think? Have I forgotten any important details or pitfalls, other than the MTAs unwillingness to spend the half-billion they have squirreled away on anything that isn't either actively falling apart or is high profile to the Gov? (Oops, pardon the mini-rant) Has anything like this reached the planning stage yet?
An even less expensive solution would be to place an express to local switch east of the existing junction. This would permit them to route all 2's and 3's to Flatbush, route 5's to New Lots while having them stop at Kingston and Nostrand Aves.
You have to construct new track underneath existing track without disrupting service for more than a weekend at a time.
Not only is it likely to be very expensive, but there is a much cheaper alternative: run all 4s and 5s to Utica or New Lots. Compensate for the 6 #5 trains per hour that used to go to Flatbush by sending 6 #3 trains per hour to Flatbush.
The obvious complaint is that now Flatbush to E Side riders will have to change at Franklin. To that I have two points:
1. This is no worse than what 1/9 riders at 96th and 6 riders at 125th already have to do in the interest of maximizing capacity.
2. More than half of them already do this change already: when heading into Manhattan from Flatbush, the next train is twice as likely to be a 2 as a 5 (12 tph vs 6), so most Lex-bound riders take the 2 that comes and change for either a 4 or 5 at Franklin anyway. Similarly, in the reverse direction, Lex riders have at most a 1 in 3 chance that the first 4/5 that comes will be a Flatbush-bound 5. So they take what comes to Franklin and change for a 2 or 5 there.
Some type of junction south of Flatbush needs to be built, so that the terminal's maximum capacity could be increased to a realistic level.
Chicken and egg. Both changing the terminal and rebuilding the junction are big bucks, and since both are bottlenecks doing either one alone provides little benefit. The question is whether to do both together, but that's a lot of money.
Larry, see my earlier post. THERE ALREADY IS money allocated for the rebuilding of Flatbush Terminal, so that the 'conga line' of bottlenecks on the 2/5 can be allievated.
I'll check tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that money isn't there now, if it ever was. The MTA and FTA have a long process to get funds. First you have to be included in a theoretical program. For a big improvement, that requires a study. Then you have a master plan and, if required, an EIS. Only then does funding arrive, if it is available, and you can start design. And only when design is completed do you get a construction contract.
And debts go up. Now that the MTA is mortgaged to the hilt, one wonders how much of what is being studied and designed in the 2000-04 plan will be built in 2005-09. The State made decisions to make its elected officials look good in the boom that we are going to pay dearly for in the bust. Beginning now. All the losses we will experience will be described as "inevitable," and at the time they are imposed that will be the case. But looking back to 1997 to 2001, that was not the case. They've already sealed our fate.
And beyond 2009, unless serious and contentious decisions are made to make people work longer, and care for their own elderly parents at home rather than have the government provide home health aids and nursing homes (a cure for Alzheimers would help too), the cost of paying for the elderly (and interests on our debts) will absorb an ever-risng share of our tax dollars. If it doesn't happen by 2009 (or at least 2014), don't expect it to happen at all.
Did I mention that the Second Avenue Subway was NEVER funded for construction in the 2000-2004 capital plan?
Think about it this way. Let's say NYCT took your suggestion and began running 30 tph on the combined 2/3 (the presumed goal of any such repair). How does the 5 get to Flatbush, now? It can't fill a slot vacated by the 2, since it'll still have to wait for the 2 to clear the interlocking ahead, and now it's holding up the 3 behind it, "stealing" its slot.
The only solution is to rearrange either the interlocking or the service so that the 5 merges with the 2 or with the 5 but never both in close proximity. That means either allowing direct access from the express track to the Nostrand branch or banishing the 5 to Utica or New Lots.
Those who suggested that a solution would be to have all east side trains serve New Lots and all west side trains serve Flatbush haven't realized just how screwed up the Rogers junction is.
My suggestion, combined with some interlocking somewhere that allowed (3) and <5> to switch without interfering, or a fix to Flatbush station to allow more trains through, could make an "all express to New Lots, all local to Flatbush" solution possible. And unlike a complete overhall, no tracks would have to underpinned. It simply require building out of the south wall of the current tunnel. (though I don't know if buildings would have to be underpinned or not)
Or maybe my idea just sucks ;) I do appreciate the input.
Are you sure about that? Look at the track map again. As far as the local tracks are concerned, the Nostrand branch is a simple merge/diverge. Nothing unusual there. Problems only show up if you try to route trains between the Nostrand branch and the express tracks.
With a new switch from express to local added on the upper level between Kingston and Utica, the 2/3 and 4/5 would each be able to support 30 tph. The basic service plan would have the 2 local to Flatbush, the 3 local to New Lots, the 4 express to Utica, and the 5 express to Utica and then local to New Lots -- 15 tph each. Adjust as desired within the constraints imposed by the terminals. (It might be possible, for instance, to run 20 tph on the 2 and only 10 tph on the 3; if possible, that would certainly be a better fit to ridership needs.)
TA will not be touching this issue anytime soon, that's what I do know.
Connect the northbound Flatbush track directly with the express, using the local's path. Move the northbound local track over to make room for it. In fact, there would be a "Y" junction like at 36th St, where only the merge would be an issue, no trains crossing in front of each other.
Connect the southbound local track via flyunder to the New Lots local track, freeing the (3) train. This might require moving Kingston Av's eastbound platform a little bit (further to the east).
In fact, if there is sufficient room between the Franklin platform and
the Rogers junction, there may be room to hold a (2) to let a <5> pass without holding up the (3) behind it. So the only delays here would be the merges, but there will be no trains otherwise crossing paths.
And as for whatever they're planning to do at Flatbush terminal, if it doesn't either involve a small yard (like IND 174th size) or a loop track, it won't be much of an improvement, except that they can store gap trains, and the problem is not lateness but rather low TPH capacity. I don't see why FB has such low capacity in the first place, the track alignment is no different from the (7) at TSQ which handles trains at 2-minute intervals (i.e. 30 TPH).
The capacity of a stub terminal is limited by the amount of time the trains take going over the crossover. If the terminal has a bumper at the end of the station, then the train must go slowly into the station and over the crossover. This is what happens at FB and most of the other terminals. TSQ has tail tracks. This permits trains to enter the station at near normal speed. This is the essential difference between TSQ and FB. BTW, the Main St terminal has bumpers. Alternate locals are turned at 111th (morning) or Willets Pt (evening) because Main St cannot handle the service levels that TSQ can.
---Choo Choo
Missa wouldn’t be able to stand a whole thread in Jar-Jar Binks-speak!~
The concept seems prudent, but where'd they get 18 minutes from? Why not a round figure, like 15 or 20?
Unless it changed with the fare increase, it's four. I believe that's also the total number of times you can swipe within an 18 minute window before the card is locked out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: )
Mark
April 47th is the equivalent of May 17th, which in the TRUE Metric Calendar is 28 de Floreál (except in Gregorian leap years, when May 17th is 29 de Floreál)
This is almost certainly the answer. Since posting, I've discovered that there's another limitation. If you want a free transfer, it must be at least 6 minutes (0.1 hours) after you first swiped your card. So both limitations are in tenths of an hour.
The latter limitation seems gratuitous. Although it's uncommon to reach your transfer within 6 minutes, it's not impossible. And I don't think it would invite serious abuse if the free transfer were activated immediately.
Probably not, but if time keeping of minutes is kept to the 10th of an hour and one event is occurring after the other, then six minutes is the minimum time one action (the transfer) can follow the first one. The lockout prevents the computer from seeing both transactions as being simultaneous, and thus charging two full fares.
Tom
Most employee passes, my own included, work the same way. As soon as I swipe (in a station) or dip (on a bus), I'm locked out for six minutes.
PM if MN is on schedule, just enters the system GC at booth 238 a :00.
The connecting bus, well we won't even address that.
With MetroCard, they can trace your movements. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Interesting in that they can trace your movements but not to minute accuracy. I'm sure a good lawyer can talk that into reasonable doubt.
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
Here we used to have "Top news, instantly!". Now we have nothing of the sort. "This is the WTOP Radio Network" is far less interesting.
Other than the above, I have no clue.
But who would be baking matzah in the summer?
Streit's, Manischevitz, Osem, et al... they have to make sure it's stale in time for seder... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I do occasionally buy matzah during the year. What I don't get is that it's more expensive off-season, and the boxes are smaller, too (and the product often contains strange ingredients, like vegetable oil, that have no business being in matzah). I stock up around Pesach, but I have only finite storage space.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
I like kosher for passover soda: Sugar instead of corn syrup.
I've left my e-mail address so you don't have to boar the bored anymore.
Yes, I am not jewish.
I never like butter on Matzoh
(Why is this the appropriate measure? I have no idea.)
The Gemara talks about it. (This is the most popular non-responsive response I have encountered during my years of attending shiurim.)
Heh, well, I'm willing to buy from you if you make some. How's about 25 cents a matzoh? :)
After that the thread kind of took off from there.
Are you up on my offer? :)
And those are machine-made.
There are really two questions: (a) how is walking a mil relevant to chometz? and (b) how do we know it takes 18 minutes to walk a mil?
The gemara seems to offer (a) with no justification. (b) seems to postdate the gemara entirely.
I'll see if I can find a justification for (a) or a source for (b).
Not that that has anything to do with anything, but if you guys are here on July 3rd you should definetly attend the fireworks downtown, they aren't nearly as good as NYC, but still a nice show. What is really worth beign here for though is the Taste of Chicago. You can ride the L or better yet stay in the South Suburbs and Take Metra Electric right to the middle of the festival. Chicago has argueably the best food in the world and it all comes together at the Taste of Chicago. The tickets are a little high priced, but the food is worth it. I usually go atleast 2 or 3 times a year. This year I will probably not go that much thought, because I will only be here for the first two days and the rest I will be in California on vacation.
There are lots of CTA and Metra rides I could recommend, my top choices are
CTA: During the Taste of Chicago/July 4th the CTA yellow line Skokie Swift runs on Weekends, something worth riding. Also riding the red line between downtown and Howard is great. The yard alone at Howard makes the trip worth it, besides all the different neighborhoods and stations you will pass on the way. If you are here on a non-Holiday weekday make sure to ride the CTA Purple Line express between Howard and downtown. It is one of the best express rides the CTA has to offer. The whole CTA system is fun to ride, but these are my top recommendations for someone who has a limited amount of time.
Metra: Ride the Metra UP-W one-way to Oak Park from downtown, get lunch at Fridays or any of the good restaurants close to the station and take the Green Line back. The stations are adjacent, they share the same station house facility about 1/2 block west of Marion St. Also the Metra Electric Line between University Park and downtown is fun. Then for a contrast on your way back get off at 59th/University of Chicago and transfer to a South Chicago train to 93rd St. It runs mostly in the median of City streets all the way to 93rd. Another great ride is the BNSF to Aurora. Weekdays are best to ride with numerous express trains. It is fun to ride a local one-way and an express the other. Especially during rush hour when the express trains bypass the locals on the center track. It is a fun ride bypassing trains, people, and numerous street crossings at 70 mph. Also, the entire metra system is fun to ride, but these are my recommendations for a limited amount of time.
let me know if you want any info. on where to stay, eat, or anything else about my city.
BJ
The Trolley Pageant at IRM should be good this year. Last year we were up to an all-time high of 31 cars in the parade, and it is distinctly possible that that number will be raised by one or two cars in 2003. Also, there will be a lot of other events happening at IRM that weekend. After the Trolley Pageant there will be a jazz concert on the Museum grounds, and I believe there will be an ice cream social sorta thing (I'm not positive - that might only be Saturday and Sunday). This has to do with IRM's 50th Anniversary, which is this year.
Frank Hicks
The IND Set is currently at 207th St, while the IRT set is in the barn at Corona.
-Stef
Getting TLC @ 207th. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Should amuse many.
Had I ridden on 1575 back then, I would have known right away that sometihng was fishy. Its bull and pinion gears would have been a dead giveaway.
But I'm GLAD to see it's still alive, and can actually ROLL ...
Different windows?
I didn't notice a peep.
Right Click, Save Target As...(QuickTime Movie, 7.1MB, hosted on a fast connection)
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Adam
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
HAHA . . . another old fart....
Peace,
ANDEE
As long as you feel young, then you are young. But to just to give you a better idea of my age, this was probably the first computer I ever used. My pre-school program was on a college campus, and one day they took us to the computer lab to see the new computers. I remember that to this day, and it is one of my earliest memories of anything.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great video! I was on that train. It was pretty cool....Can't wait until the trips next month!
-Mark
---Choo Choo
If so, what kind of effects would the cars experience from sitting still for 27 years? Anything? They were out of the elements.
---Choo Choo
If this consist came in on the "Times Square northbound" trackway...
how would it switch/crossover/relay out to CORONA from TIMES SQR??
By foot, yes, Times Square go downstairs to catch the 7 out to
the Home of the World Champions (c/ 1986)... and you're in CORONA.
1____ HOW WOULD A TRAIN CONSIST MAKE THE MOVE TO CORONA if it comes out appearing at
"Times Square northbound"....
2____ Better yet HOW DID IT GET FROM THE MUSEUM to "Times Square northbound" (IIRC Museum trackage is IND-linked)
(I assume Times Square northbound means the 1/2/3/9 platform
as I've yet to sight the video)
(DOWNLOAD IN PROGRESS)
I ASS-U-MED it was 1/2/3/9 and was stumped how the connection
would be made to the 7 Tracks....
Thanks to Clayton for that clip!!!
Next time I'll wait to SEE Video clip BEFORE asking Questions... hehehe :)
I ASS-U-MED it was 1/2/3/9 and was stumped how the connection
would be made to the 7 Tracks....
Thanks to Clayton for that clip!!!
Next time I'll wait to SEE Video clip BEFORE asking Questions... hehehe :)
How do they get from Times Square BMT to CORONA YARD..
QBP to the 7 trackage seems the most obvious...
Much Thanks (again!!!) to Clayton for that reel... too @#%#@$# rad!!
FIFTH TIME ASKING... No one seems to comprehend the QUESTION...
What PATH (not Hoboken) does that train take to get to CORONA from
that TIMES SQR platform...
It's the BMT Platform... that I know...
How does it get to CORONA from THERE??
Does it go NORTH to Queensboro Plaza and switch to the 7 tracks?
Does it go NORTH to Queens Plaza and reverse into 2nd Avenue and bring life to the tunnel?
Does it go NORTH to Astoria and do a cameo on Sesame Street?
WHAT TRACK PATTERN WOULD IT TAKE TO GET FROM THE (YES THE BMT) BMT
PLATFORM AT TIMES SQUARE OUT TO CORONA??
Can you tell me how to get, how to get that train out to CORONA YARD??
(Thankgahd they weren't transported under 'tarp' coverage) ;)
--Mark
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
...Printing THAT out RIGHT NOW...that's TWICE I've been stopped for taking photos. I shall now carry and guard that like my keys and money. Funny thing though, one cop that questioned me actually seemed more nervous than I was, and I can't even stand still, let alone withstand questioning. At Roosevelt Island, of all places, you'd think they would be more friendly to tourists. ONE picture and he shows up out of thin air.
--Mark
Some guys have all the luck. LOL!
Things will get more interesting when it comes time to transfer the set from Corona to the mainline IRT.....
--Mark
-Stef
Where is the train set in Corona. I look there so many times while taking the 7 and never see it.
---Choo Choo
And where would that be? Thanks!
The A Division Cars at Corona Yard.... thus I was asking how
the A Division Cars got from the BMT Platform out to Corona..
Nothin' about 207, brah!! ; )
It was set up to appease F riders who had lost their convenient Lex Line connection when the F was re-routed through the 63rd St tunnel. From comments I've read on various boards, it doesn't seem that there are many F riders who considered this an acceptable substitute. You can say what you like about the V train, but a 4-block walk outdoors ain't much of a transfer.
"Why can't it be extended to other points in the system?"
Good question, and it would seem there are other places where it makes sense--e.g., Livonia Avenue (L) and Junius St (3).
It's not the three-block walk that's a pain -- it's the long ascent to the surface from the F. Extend the express (4/5) platforms north from 60th to 63rd and install direct staircases and elevators to the F platforms and this will instantly become a very popular transfer point.
IINM, the 4/5 passes above the F at 63/Lex, so installing the new passageway above the 4/5 would require unnecessary climbing and would make the new transfer a bit less attractive than it could be.
But I'd be happy to have either.
To give an idea of what's involved, the plans for rebuilding Lower Manhattan's infrastructure originally included a "Rector Connector" between the two downtown Rector St stations. If I recall correctly, that project was estimated at somewhere like $100m, or more. It was dropped from the plans, because the connection is going to be built at South Ferry instead (and there could be a connection at Cortlandt St before we're done).
Anyhow, the transfer you're talking about would certainly be no less complicated than the Rector Connector, so you're talking about a fairly expensive proposition.
Worth doing, because (as others have said) the sclepp up to the street and down again take time. The project I'm waiting for is the new transfer at Bleeker (northbound) and Houston, giving F riders access to the 6. That will save time to Grand Central vs. a ride up to 42nd and a transfer to the #7.
However, you do lose your bus transfer when you use the out of system transfer.
Jay/IND to Lawrence/BMT or Borough Hall/IRT and BMT
Atlantic Ave/Pacific St to either Fulton St/G line or Lafayette Ave/C line
Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza
7th Ave/53rd st Manhattan (IND) to 55th st entrance at 57/7 (BMT)
59th St./CC (IND/IRT) also to 57/7 (BMT Main entrance)
Simpson St (WPR line) to Hunts Point Ave (Pelham)
Only a new free transfer, called the Jay-Lawrence connection is planned, other transfers are not feasible or cost effective.
There are two other out-of-system transfers that I'm aware of: Court Square/23rd-Ely to 45th Road, and 51/Lex to 53/Lex (specifically to accomodate the morning rush, when the in-system transfer from the 6 is closed off, but the free swipe is active all day and in both directions).
IMO, especially now that the Fun Pass is so expensive, the two-hour free transfer period should be converted into a two-hour unlimited ride period.
Is that correct?
IMO, Queens-bound trains should have stopped at Lex and Manhattan-bound trains should have bypassed. Passengers from Queens have better alternate routes (F, R, 7, J/Z, depending on origin). 5th Avenue is a mob scene because E passengers from the south have no decent alternate routes, and the occasional passenger who doesn't realize what's going on (after all, it's not on the map) is dragged all the way out to Queens.
Precisely. Although not advertised this way, the practical effect is that, at these stations, you can transfer from anything to anything.
At the MEM: "Card not valid"
The fair comtroler used a play with words to imply otherwise. what the comptroler called two sets of books was two sets of preposed budgets no different then the two sets of budget preposals Mayor Bloomberg has layed foward
1st budget - The doomsday budget based on the federal and stae government nor helping plug the budget whole
2nd budget - fewer layoffs based on more funding
Mr. hevesi under questioning from the NY Times admitted that the MTA used the money raised from the bond sales to pay down debt occued by capitol projects that were at a higher interest rate and were coming due over the three year period
If the MTA would use the money derived by issuing debt to pay for operations it would be no different then what the MTA did in the 1970's for which was part of the reason why the subways declined
It is time that those who screem the MTA is not clear enough with it's disclosure to issue clear factual knowledge themselves. The straphangers campaign and the two comptrolers reports did not back up WITH FACTs all ther eassertions in their report. In fact the straphangers campaign is sending out emails touting false information to wip up a frenzy
The MTA under Kalikow has done an OK job managing the MTA's finace. I give them a B. They retired older higher rate debt with new lower interest debt resulting in a $600 million in cash which they used to pay off more high rate debt. If they woud have used that money for operations that debt would have incured more interest and would still have to be paid off next year and the year after
I don't blame NYCT for desiring to curb hoarding, but violating contracts is not a good way to go about it. At the very least, once the details of the fare hike were set, MVM's should have displayed the actual expiration date on the screen. There is certainly no legal justification for not honoring Fun Passes purchased before then.
I'm not going to sue. Perhaps someone else will.
The MTA is full of Paturkey appointees. 'nuff said ...
---Choo Choo
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think I can be held to the terms of a contract if I need to execute the contract before I can see its terms.
If the tarriff were available in token booths or even online, I'd agree.
Still, I'm curious to hear what the tarriff says.
And to think, we RE-ELECT these bastards!
She also claimed that I had to mail in one card with a slight crease since her machine couldn't read it, even though the MEM's have no trouble with it.
I had a creased card. Worked fine on the bus but couldn't be re-filled at Lex/63. It had $1 on it, so I had to refill it (this was in 1997, I would put $5 on my card each time). By the time I got it back, I didn't need a Metrocard anymore. I ended up using it eventually.
I don't know about trades, but the limit for purchases is 5 cards.
>>....She also claimed that I had to mail in one card with a slight crease since her machine couldn't read it, even though the MEM's have no trouble with it
If the card comes up on the computer as damaged (computer shows an error), we can do nothing with the card. You'll get a mailer and send the damaged card to Jay St.
If the card is damaged. Be it something simple or major, the Agent can't do nothing with the card. The latest software won't allow some cards from being handled.
-Stef
The only thing I can think of is that the (F) uses mostly R46s while the (E) uses mostly R32s. An R32 is usually a somewhat jerkier ride than an R46, which might provide the illusion of speed.
:-) Andrew
Best way to test the actual speed, see how long it takes on the "E" from Roosevelt to West 4th...and then time the "F" from Roosevelt to West 4th. =)
Actually, considering that the F uses R32 equipment as well, how about sending an R46 set (ABBAABBA arrangememnt, not AAAAABBA, AABAABBA or ABAAABBA arrangement, where A is a motor cab and B is a trailer car) first, then sending an R32 set about 5 minutes later, both on the F line.
N Bwy
The Queens Blvd line have too many timers (especially in the W/B direction) along the express track to allowed trains to reach max speed.
Was that an R46 trainset you mentioned that was on the E line, a rare sight indeed? Or did you meant to mention the F train?
I think you're referring to the Energy Conservation switch. The 60' cars have them too.
What does this do?
David
And this makes the express exaggerated in many cases, saving at the most, what, 5 minutes over the local?
Unfortunately, many Anti-V people don't understand this concept...or they do and blame the V for other asinine issues like the 'increase of congestion on the E' or 'the decrease of usefulness on the F.'
You forgot the inconveience of G train riders unable to directly access Broadway line (R train at Queens Blvd) service because of this "only at rush hour does it have no seats, other times the train is empty", V line.
Let's see what people think now. Was the V worth putting on considering the neagtives that were created?
Just another data point.
---Choo Choo
I didn't get a reading on the return trip because someone was sitting there and he looked at me funny when I tried to climb around him.
:-o Andrew
Certain posters say the E is actually more crowded, the F has become more useless now that it's running through the 63 St. connector and the G has been cut down....all to the V train. Is this blame game justified?
A somewhat (i.e. not much, but at least feasible) better alternative would've been to extend the (Q) from 21/Queensbridge to provide local service in Queens-better yet, with (Q) via QB local and via QB exp, they might be able to fit the EFGQR all at once, only adding in half a route each to the local and express. The (V) is totally useless without trains to Brooklyn-even if all of them (F/G/V) were locals in Brooklyn, it would be more purposeful.
The V gives direct access between the Queens Boulevard local stations and the popular 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines.
Your modification gives Queens Boulevard local passengers two different routes to Broadway but still no access to 53rd or 6th.
Your modification also feeds too much service into both the local and the express. The Q is two routes sharing a letter, not one (think about it -- the circle-Q replaced the D in Brooklyn; the diamond-Q replaced the Q in Brooklyn). Even if you were only adding half a route to each track, there still wouldn't be room.
It's unfortunate that the G had to lose its direct service on Queens Boulevard, but the current service pattern serves Queens Boulevard local passengers much better. G passengers have an easy (yes, easy) transfer to a Queens Boulevard express, a Queens Boulevard local, the Flushing line, and three distinct Manhattan routes. I wish I had such easy access to the Queens Boulevard express or to the 6th Avenue line!
The only big disadvantage I can think of is that it would probably freeze during winter or get kncked over in a sevre storm. Then again, a good number of subways aren't in climates where you would worry about that.
So why was the third rail picked over pantographs for subways?
But I can somwhat agree with you....catenary wiring offers safer operation and trains can operate faster. If I remember correctly, 3rd rail has a speed limit due to the amount of friction. I'm going to say 80mph...I could be wrong...please correct me if I am.
They use catenary on some of the lines of the Madrid & Barcelona metros.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think a good number of lines in Japan do, too.
--Mark
Mark
Sao Paulo is building two subway lines right now that use overhead, I've ridden one of them already. And these aren't lightweight subways either. Line 4, which is under construction has a projectd ridership of 1 MILLION people per day on a 12 km line. Line 5, which is linked here, when completed, will have 500,000 people riding it per day.
Geeyeeeez. Makes me wonder: Where the hell'll they all be going to? The movies, work, shopping, their pals place....all that, in a corridor less than 5 miles long....in Brazil, no less. That's um, that's surprising. Just how dense is it down there? And the economy must be swingin' cause that's a whole lot of traveling.
So I guess this means we can cut off the aid we give Brazil, if any. Sounds like they don't need it.
I have a brouchure of the new line issued by the Metro company to the public which says the population of the area the line will serve is approximately 3.5 million. The Line is also being financed by loans from the World Bank and a Japanese Bank; they have to pay them back. The line itself will be run by a private company for 20 years, and then it'll be turned over to the Metro company.
7 million people ride the bus system every day. The current subway system has less than 60 km of route but has over 2 million people riding everyday. The busiest line in the system sees close to 900,000 people per day and it's only 22 km long with 18 stations. The current subway is bursting at the seams. As you can see, there is a high demend for more subway service and it's long overdue. The density is no doubt there, too.
It has nothing to do with the economy. The economy down there isn't too good right now. But the city has so many people and over half uses public transportation everday. Even if there is high uneployment,. you're still going to have millions of people with jobs and they need to get there somehow. BTW, this post is neither supporting or condemning the need for aid down there.
When *our* subways were built, we had less automobiles too!
And soon we too shall have fewer cars, when we CLOSE MANHATTAN to private vehicles!
: ) Elias
It's a bitch, ain't it, when our personal railfan desires conflict with what "the rest of `em" want to do. The trend does seem to be altering somewhat nationally. My home page is set on Googles' news search page, with transit as the search query. So many bus and train systems being planned out there in the hinterlands! The logic is spreading, and not so slowly either. Seems as if every city wants rail transit or BRT lines or commuter rail.
It's a bitch, ain't it, when our personal railfan desires conflict with what "the rest of `em" want to do. The trend does seem to be altering somewhat nationally. My home page is set on Googles' news search page, with transit as the search query. So many bus and train systems being planned out there in the hinterlands! The logic is spreading, and not so slowly either. Seems as if every city wants rail transit or BRT lines or commuter rail.
Would you like your surfer well done?
During lunch as I was watching an HBLR car go by I was thinking about the same thing (I went to lunch before you posted this). And I also came up with the same reasons that the others did (except for the subway surfer one).
If you look at a catenary wire, it is under high tension. It is possible to walk on the wire (w/o the electric current) but even if the electric power is lost, the catenary wires still have power going through them (this is a technical spec which I shall find the webpage for. I've seen this on a very helpful webpage about catenary wires).
Catenary wires are suitable for high-speed travel, which the Subway doesn't see. My categorization of high speed is 80mph or more. It's not needed to waste the efficiency of a motor by constantly stopping and not using the speed capability of what the motor is designed for. (i.e. 30mph on a motor designed for 100mph). I don't know if there can be low-speed (60mph like the R142(A)'s) configured for catenary wires but I may be wrong. The wires also carry a much higher voltage than 3rd rail (modern ones are set at 25,000V) and this kind of voltage is not needed for slow-speed, intracity travel.
So be nice to it guyz, OK? :)
--Mark
For the most part, third-rail preceded overhead catenary wire for heavy-rail applications. Mostly has to do with precedent—when the London Underground electrified, it used energized rails next to the tracks. The success of this expanded to US railroads, notably the NY Central and the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR initially, that is, until it looked at the NHRR and NYWB and their catenary systems, thenceforth building the LIRR with the third-rail).
Third-rail was a natural for the els and the newer subway systems, what with the simplicity of construction, ease of access, and the added deterrent of keeping trespassers off the rails for fear of accidentally turning themselves into a “ground” and becoming fried “turkey” after a fashion. Even some streetcar systems embraced third-rail, like the Third Avenue Railway System in Manhattan which was formerly cable-powered like today’s cable cars in San Francisco (simple matter of putting the third-rail into the vault that previously held the cable).
Also, the use of third-rail permitted lower clearances in the cut-&-cover and tunnel sections of the subway, leading to lower construction costs and less to clean up post-construction.
Mind you, there are some oddities concerning third-rail, what with the NY Central using overhead third-rail within Grand Central Terminal so that locomotives could bridge the gaps when going over switches (nowadays de-energized, pity too since the P32AC-DMs could use it)…incidentally, the first subway in the US is Boston’s Green Line, a light-rail system that uses overhead wire.
As for other reasons why third-rail was chosen, I’ll defer to others and will accept correction as necessary…
Not for the issue you believe. Manhattan prohibited overhead wires - for anything. This came about after the Blizzard of 1883 brought telegraph and electric wires down all over the island.
When both Third Avenue and Metrolpolitan (later New York Railways) converted to electricity in the early years of the twentieth century they did install the electric rails (both positive and negative conductors were in the conduit, the rails were not used in the electric circuit) in the cable conduit, but later the conduits were rebuilt heaver and shorter for electric use.
Not really. Positive and negative only have meaning with respect to something else. In this (and many other) cases, that common reference is ground. The running rails are held at ground potential, so you can think of them as zero volts.
The third rail is nominally 600 volts from ground, and therefore, 600 volts from the running rails. I'm not sure whether it's 600 below or 600 above. You are correct in that this will identify the direction of electron flow, but the "source of electrons" isn't related to what we think of as the "source of electricity."
There are some four-rail (or second third-rail) electrifications, for example, in London, where one power rail is above 0V and the other is below 0V; in these cases, the voltage difference between the two power rails is what counts, even though the voltage to ground is never that high. (Then there are other fourth-rail electrifications where one of the power rails is bonded to ground.)
Mark
Third rail can deliver thousands of amps, overhead can't. That's why they use such high voltages on mainlines.
Pure silver has a resistance of 1.642x10-8 ohm/m
Pure gold has a resistance of 2.643x10-8 ohm/m
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Easy way to get a rough idea of potential HP, though it doesn't take motor losses or inversion/conversion/control losses into effect, is to multiply the amps times the volts (which gives you watts) and divide by 750 (rough Watt->HP conversion). It's not 100% accurate, but it gives you an idea of what's possible. You'll note that even at fairly high HP ratings, on a 25kv system, the currents involved are rather small - if your wall outlet was at 25,000 volts, you could power up a single NJ arrow with it :)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
A Train - R44 #5271
A Train - R44 #5403
Doesn't the resistivity of a conductor depend upon it's cross-sectional area? If that is true then 3rd rail's very large cross section compared to the rather narrow cross section of standard trolley overhead would mean that the resistance of a given section of 3rd rail would be much lower than a length of Trolley overhead. And if all this is true, then it would make sense to do 3rd rail as opposed to trolley overhead, since you would have smaller voltage drops over the same distance as a trolley overhead. It could be seen as as much of an economic as anything else, fewer substations needed, pretty simple decision.
rho=(A/L)R
rho=resistivity
A=area of x-section
L=Length of object
R=Resistance
The larger the area, the higher the resistivty, the lower the resistance. There is more area for the electrons to pass, so any imperfections that create more resistance won't affect the total resistance as much as a smaller aera would.
R=Resistance,
rho=Resistivity,
L=Length,
A=area.
We can probably assume that rho is the same for both, copper, or something with similar properties, we're not talking using gold for one and polystyrene for the other. And L will be the same, as will R, for our purposes, in a function form it'd be F(x)=A(B/x). Thus as area DECREASES, Resistance increases.
Don't worry about it, all you did was mess up a stupid and largely non-applicable (IIRC you're Civ Eng, right?) formula. Check under "Strappie Sue" to see my 6th order of magnitude screwup. Yes, I was off by 100,000!
Yes, I'm a Civil Engineering major, and this stuff is mostly useless for me. Material Science is a class for my major pretty much for the one section about the atomic arrangment relates to strength of the material. I had a choice between taking MSE or Circuits, I'm glad I didn't take Circuits, since that is a weed-out course for the EE school, which means it's hard as hell.
I'm in the basic engineering stuff at Drexel, you have to declare an area, Business, Comp Sci, Engineering or Nursing right off the bat, and they're VERY proud of their tDEC (the Drexel Engineering Experience) garbage. So far almost all the engineering I've learned is Software, Electrical, and Chemical, CivE need not apply. I'm hoping things'll get better, they're supposed to have a great transportation planning emphasis inside CivE, so that sounds interesting, assuming I survive Freshman Year.
Good Luck at school
Yabut...
Power loss decreases as voltage increases. Third rail electrifications usually run at lower voltages, under 1kV. Overhead catenary electrifications usually run at higher voltages, like 25kV. As far as power loss goes, this more than makes up for the third rail's lower resistance.
In practice, you'll find that substations are placed much further apart where high voltages are used as compared to low voltages. Comparitively, the lowest voltages, like the 120V or 240V we're all familiar with, need "substations" (transformers) placed very closely.
Mark
Does anyone know if BART could have done Overhead effectively? Don't they use a 1200Vdc 3rd rail? That would mean a halving of the current, which would mean that voltage drop would also be lowered. Could this have allowed the use of thinner overhead catenary instead of 3rd rail? Or did their large, fast vehicles require more current, making the switch to 1200vdc necessary to avoid massive voltage drops at anything more than a half mile from a substation?
Thanks
Now the BART Rolling Stock section of this site says that they use 4 150hp motors per car, so 4*150 = 600 hp just for power, and that's 447,000 watts per car, figure 1000 watts for HVAC and lighting (is this too low?), so its now 448KW per car, and in a 10 car train (max given on this site) thats 4,480,000 watts per train. Which means that to get that amount on a 1000VDC 3rd rail you need 4480 amps!
How do NYC subway cars compare to this? I note that the R142 has 150hp motors, but is it one motor per axle, or one per truck?
Most certainly not. Resistivity is a fixed property of the
conductor material. Resistance, on the other hand, is
resistivity divided by area and multiplied by length, so it
varies by how long vs how fat the conductor is.
At any rate, the wire used in catenary overhead systems, 0-0-0-0
hard-drawn copper, has a continuous rating of about 500 amperes
and a peak rating of about 2000. That is far too small to power
a subway train, which can peak (NYCT cars) at about 700 amps
PER CAR. Overhead wire used at "low" voltages (approx 600 DC)
is for streetcars or short LRV trains. When you see catenary
over heavy rail (e.g. the Northeast Corridor) it is high-voltage
(e.g. 11kV-25kV).
High-voltage overhead conductors are a big problem in tunnels
because of clearance distances required from the grounded tunnel
roof. It would be impossible to retrofit such a system into
the current NYCT tunnels.
On the Blue in Boston, they regularly have a shop guy up on the roof at Orient Heights checking pantos for damage.
1 hour babysitting a broken hanger. (my last, at least another for the next guy and the power crew..... minor service delays.)
4 hours on defective signal/ trip. (during a crew change for signal maintainers.)
3 hours babysitting passengers and trains. (which I was scheduled to do for 8 hours.)
*Note 0 hours on the 3rd rail!
These trains run at the lowest speeds out of the entire Metra system. Top speed is 65 mph, whereas the other diesel lines and South Shore range from 70-79 mph maxes with grade crossings.
Seems really stupid to me. Metra could have a high speed line, if they put some money into the Electric Line main line. After all, only one private road crossing, this means it could potentially have no speed limit. Yet trains on some of the diesel lines that cross right through the middle of busy suburbs go almost 20 mph faster at 79 mph max.
I know the reason is probably cost, but anybody know what it would potentially take and cost to make the electric Line main line high speed??
The other volumes in William D Middleton’s "Traction Trilogy" are "Time of the Trolley" and "The Interurban Era" William D Middleton is recognizes as the foremost authority on railroad electrification I will note that When The Steam Railroads Electrified was originally published in 1974 it has sense been updated and was republished in 2002.
Other volumes written by Middleton on railroad electrification
Grand Central, the World's Greatest Railway Terminal
The Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wire
North Shore
South Shore; The Last Interurban
From Bullets to Bart
John
Grand Central, the World's Greatest Railway Terminal
The Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wire
North Shore
South Shore; The Last Interurban
From Bullets to Bart
And his newest: Metropolitan Railways.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Primarily a photo album, but with lots of brief, informative prose as well. A nice feature is an appendix with biographical data on the photographers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Course, now for another question. SP's Oakland electrification used 1200VDC, which allowed the amperage to drop enough that overhead catenary could be used without appreciable losses along the line. Now, why couldn't a similar system be used by later subways? I know that 1200vdc power wasn't around until 1907, precluding it's use on the IRT and BMT, but certainly other systems could have used it.
Jaap van Dorp
Danbury Engineer.
Do you know why Central was knocked down?
Also, do you have the whole list of NH towers with PC names and SS numbers?
Is a newspaper THAT desperate to sell at any price it claims to be "authentic" and "original" stories?
Yes.
"Become"?? They've been a "cheap tabloid paper" for decades!!
I've been reading a few posts about service late at night and during the over-night hours. I was just wondering, what kind of ridership levels exist on the various lines at, say, three o'clock in the morning? Are riders none-existant at these times or are the subways still reasonably busy?
Thanks in advance
Tim
I'm pleased to say that I've never been on the subway at 3am. I have, however, been on a crush loaded 2 train at 1:30am.
According to the Weekday Cordon Count 1996, the most crowded route across the CBD boundary between 3 and 4am was the southbound 4 at 86th Street, with 341 passengers on three trains, and the least crowded was the northbound J at Essex Street, with 35 passengers on three trains.
Buses are notably emptier. Between 3 and 4am, outbound buses had a total of 14 passengers across the CBD boundary and inbound buses had a total of 11 passengers. Total. All bus routes combined, all CBD crossings combined.
Tho I remember being on a sb 2 train once at 1130pm FRIDAY coming
from E 233 into NYC and it was packed loaded...
I think it's remarkable that, through all of the lean years, practically the entire NYC subway system has remained open 365x24x7, rather than trying to pick-and-choose which stations have insufficient traffic to justify remaining open at all hours. I'm sure there are stations where the fares collected overnight don't even cover the booth clerk's salary. But overall, the system is better because we can ride the subway at any time.
As an aside, am I right that the only stations not open at all times are Broad/Fulton on the J (closed weekends) and 145/148 on the #3 (closed late nights)?
Until 1990, all stations were open 24/7. That's when the 3 shuttle train turned into a shuttle bus and the weekend J was cut back from Broad to Canal. (It was extended to Chambers in 1994.)
It depends what you consider a station. The MTA says there are 468 stations in the system, but in fact you'd come up with a smaller number if each "station complex" counted just once. I haven't added them up myself, but I believe that if two stations were originally separate, the MTA counts them as distinct stations in the total of 468, even if free transfers were built later. This makes some sense, as originally separate stations usually have at least one dedicated fare control, in addition to passageway access from other platforms.
According to one study I read--I think by the Permanent Citizens' Advisory Committee--the weekend closure of the J at Fulton Street confuses a fair number of riders. The area is rather heavily trafficked on weekends, thanks to the South St Seaport. I think this closure will be a good candidate for re-evaluation in the next few years, especially as the post-9/11 construction will continue to bring new activity to the area outside of the traditional business hours.
The area around Broad & Wall, on the other hand, is pretty deserted on weekends, but I think it would be worth extending the J to Broad St at all times, so that the Fulton St platforms can remain open.
I think it would be easier to install HXTs at Broad, and allow people to exit there if they want to. Otherwise, the crew needs to make sure every train has been emptied before leaving Fulton St.
I'd be happy either way. Some would complain if Broad doesn't have an S/A on duty; personally, I don't care. The big benefit is access to the transfers at Fulton.
Incidentally, this was one of the temporary benefits of the brief 9/19/01 service plan: both J and M trains continued south of Chambers at all times (except the first weekend, when there weren't enough crews available, so the M ran as a Myrtle shuttle and a Sea Beach shuttle).
There is no T/D the weekend T/D at Broad, not TW/O.
Just this Sunday, I helped two passengers get to the J from Fulton. (Actually, one wanted the M. Two transfers!)
It also becomes a real pain to reach the A/C and especially the 2/3 from the J without the Fulton transfer point.
It's narrow and twisty:
Traian such as the brigton Q/broadway express run at times with 30-50% of its seats filled at 3 am. The reason it is busy is partly because the trains only come 3 times(20 min headways) an hour with full length trains
Most lines would be better off running shorter trains with shorter headways. This would attract those who now avoid tthe subways overnight and on weekends and either now drive in, take car service home or just do not come into the city at all
This includes people looking to travel within manhattan who after 9 pm take cabs everywehre brcasue of the long headways.
The main problem with overnight service is if you need to transfer from one line to another to complete your trip it is hard to do so becasue you will be waiting up to 20 min for both trains. If you miss your train it may take longer to wait for the next train then the total trip time
To create crowded trains. The theory was that muggers prefer to work on nearly deserted cars.
I know this is a favored stance on your part. I would add that if it were ever implemented, there sure as hell aughta be "significant signage" related to the change. As in prominent Nightime Waiting Area notification...probably, beyond what the LIRR does with the stripes on the platform edge. Or else the confusion will be great. Now, the feasibility of Transit actually doing this is slim. I think the problem of which section of the platform to designate as nightime service area is bigger than you suppose. Plus, I have my doubts on the TA increasing headways on the new short train consists. That part of it would gradually be forgotten and soon enough, we'd go back to that 20 minute headway. Which still ain't bad. Whaddya expect at 3:30 in the morning?
On another note, I also remember the train going abnormally fast in the tunnel-felt like over 50-my mother insists it was because I hadn't rode the subway in nearly a year, but I insisted it was faster, and later found I was right. T/O's shoot right through red GT signals at just over intended speed and I don't even see them clear-only the stop arm goes up just before the train passes. Hmmm...first an (L) wreck at Grahm, then Bushwick/Aberdeen, next will be at 1st Ave. I actually find that railfan window ride to be quite scary nowadays. You don't KNOW that the signal isn't red because of a train in front, because many of the signals lack a lower white aspect, or even an S.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
But I get my arse up in the air with each and every one of these myself. It's time to put this to a stop and install missile launchers in the cab.
It sure doesn't come from "organized" religion or blowhards like William Bennett, who just had his soles held to the flames. Just for the record, I like to gamble, and apologize for veering off topic.
I have greater faith in the sense of the framers of our Constitution; they can't be called "Founding Fathers" in the PC world - too sexist.
For those who wish to be our domestic Taliban, all I ask is that they put it back in their pants before stepping up to the podium. :)
Do you need a photo pass to take digital video on the MTA?
Thanks,
Larry
Do you need a photo pass to take digital video on the MTA?
Thanks,
Larry
The MTA *could* do itself a BIG favor by revising its rules and require the obtaining of a permit, but placing itself into a legal "no man's land" invites a lawsuit. Then again, I worked for the geniuses who run the Paturkey farm - they'll never see it coming. :(
Can't wait to hear what law or regulation this person violated and the basis of their "violation" ... can't call it "false arrest" if they were handed a summons though ... this might turn out to be QUITE the amusing story. Especially if they get a lawyer.
You just don't get it. In these days with the need for heightened homeland security, it is necessary to keep rules changes secret so they cannot be used against us. :-)
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Or the officer could have seen the individual as the train was entering the station.
--Mark
Original note makes it seem as tho the summons was PRE-written.
SUCKS either way cuz just 3 years ago you could do it all and nil.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Quite possibly. Lights aren't permitted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ancillary
adj : relating to something that is added but is not essential
How is the flash built into the camera "something that is added but not essential?" My reading of the law seems to say that any non-built-in flashes would be illegal. But the flash is an essential part of photography, in that most cameras come with one and it is considered part of the camera. So I think that either built-in flashes are allowed, or that the law is just worded poorly. If built-in flashes are illegal, the law should say:
Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that flash photography and ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, or tripods may not be used.
Its not including flash as "ancillary equipment" but rather prohibiting flashes specifically.
These are prohibited for obvious reasons.
Tripods: safety issue. Many morons in NY will walk right into a tripod. Stupidity is king in NY.
Lights, reflectors and flashes can distract an incoming T/O.
--Mark
--Mark
I have written you..
(gives you the chance to *FLASH* the cops if and where desired).
I guess you never read the book, Catch 22. The corollary to "Permit Required" is "No permits issued."
Tom
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
That's because when #2755 was OOS from the accident, someone swiped two of the number boards. After repairs to the car body were made, it returned to service with the stick on numbers running ever since.
I don't know why original replacement number boards were made.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean make replacement number boards ? I think they can, they had a contractor make the original ones for the fleet when new. They could manufacture two new ones to the T.A.'s spec.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
This is what you said.
Don't worry about it, it's no big deal really. Just being a nitpick.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm in a bit of a tricky situation here. I believe I have printed out all the necessary paperwork for the T/O application (its available online). However, the MTA has not put the official notice of examination online yet. I have to work all day tomorrow, and therefore cannot make it to transit headquarters (I live in CT). It says online to read the notice of examination before sending in the paperwork, which does make sense. But I want to have my mailing be postmarked on the first day (5/7), because that can help with the order of call backs.
Here is a list of all the paperwork that I have. Am I missing anything, or is it safe for me to send my application in without reading the official notice of examination? Obviously I will have to get the actual test date, which I'll find out in the near future.
1. Application for Examination
2. Application Supplement
3. Education and Experience Test Paper (Sections A-D)
4. $45.00 postal money order
Thanks,
Nick
Just try not to crash the train. That may lessen your chances in getting the job. :)
Sounds to me like you've got everything in line... 'xcept I remember
the listing mentioning that it was "Preliminary" and could be subject
to addendum or change... prior to enactment.
GOOD LUCK to ya, brah!
First time around...wish me luck
--Z--
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/trainoperator.pdf
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
www.amtrak.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Media Relations, 202 906-3860
ATK-03-066
May 6, 2003
AMTRAK CUSTOMER CARE TEAM RESPONDS TO SCENE OF SILVER STAR GRADE CROSSING INCIDENT
WASHINGTON - An Amtrak customer care team has arrived in Liberty County, Ga. to provide assistance to the passengers and crew of the Silver Star, which was involved in a grade crossing accident earlier today.
The Silver Star, train 91, derailed at 7:20 a.m. E.D.T. after striking a lumber truck at a marked grade crossing in Hinesville, Ga., approximately 26 miles north of Jesup. The train, which was en route from New York to Miami, had 150 passengers and 14 crewmembers aboard at the time of the accident.
Updated reports indicate that there were 27 injuries to passengers and crew. Of the injured, 19 passengers and four crewmembers were treated and released at Liberty Medical Center. Two passengers are being treated at Winn Army Hospital at Fort Stewart, Ga. A third passenger was being transported to St. Joseph's Hospital in Savannah. The engineer, who was the most seriously injured, was admitted to Memorial Health University Medical Center in Savannah.
Uninjured passengers have been taken to the Charles M. Schumann Recreation Center in Hinesville, Ga., where the Amtrak customer care team is arranging for alternate transportation, lodging, and other needs. Friends and relatives of passengers and crewmembers of train 91 may call 1-800-523-9101 for information.
Amtrak will provide bus transportation around the incident scene between Savannah and Jacksonville until the track is reopened. Passengers traveling through this area may expect delays up to 5 hours as a result of the incident. Auto Train service between Sanford, Fla. and Lorton, Va. has been cancelled today. Passengers are encouraged to call 1-800-USA-RAIL for updated information on delays and alternate transportation.
The accident occurred at a crossing marked by standard X-shaped railroad warning signs on track owned, operated and maintained by CSX Transportation. According to police at the scene, the driver of the truck was fatally injured in the accident. The authorized track speed in the area is 79 m.p.h.
Train 91 departed New York Penn Station yesterday at 11:30 a.m. and was scheduled to arrive in Miami today at 5:20 p.m. Major intermediate station stops included Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond, Raleigh, and Savannah.
Of course they did... all zero of them... there weren't any Superliners on that train, just Amfleets and Viewliners (and possibly a Heritage diner). Superliners can't make it to NYP.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the Crescent is a Penn train. So's the one that derailed, which was the Silver Star.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Obviously you haven't read any of the news articles that have been published (here's the one on CNN.com that I linked in another thread) or Amtrak's press release.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fox or MSNBC? To them, anything south of Washington is "near Atlanta".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jersey Mike shoots himself in the foot!!!
Have fun, Mike >:)
There were further reductions to the Els in later years. The 3rd Avenue El was curtailed to City Hall (its terminus had been South Ferry); then, it was banished from Manhattan; then, it was torn down altogether. The Polo Grounds shuttle became redundant after the Giants left town. Most of the Myrtle Avenue El went away. The Culver Shuttle closed. And so forth. But the most dramatic reductions came early.
In short, a fairly significant amount of elevated train service went away in just a few short years--some of it later to be replaced with subway service, and some of it just never replaced. I realize that public officials back then could pretty much have their way without seeking community input--that's how Robert Moses could get many of his projects built. But still, such a drastic reduction in mass transit service must have occasioned widespread disruption, and at least some complaints.
Bearing in mind that no change is adored by everyone, I'm wondering what the general consensus was at the time. I mean, these days you can't close a token booth without a fair amount of screaming. Compared to that, the closing of the Els was draconian.
Mind you, I am not arguing that a mistake was made. I'm interested in the historical context.
The one problem with that line compared to the IND line was that it was built as a three track line, with no room for a fourth. Beyond that, it ran over the Brooklyn Bridge and dead-ended at City Hall. One of the original schemes for that line called for it to be plugged into the BMT at DeKalb Avenue (the Ashland Place Line). What would that have done for the capacity of the other lines going through DeKalb? Building the subway on Fulton Street wasn't the problem. The problem was that no one thought of what to do with four tracks once they got to Downtown Brooklyn right away.
The issue with the Concourse line was that it was conceived as being a spur to the 8th Avenue line, rather than as a separate trunk line. Had it been conceived as a separate service, which a number of Bronx groups wanted (and the Board of Transportation dismissed out of hand), there would have been much more of a focus on building the 2nd Avenue line.
In my post I covered the "dead ending" of the Fulton EL. It could have been connected to the Cranberry tube. A large part of the Fulton el was rebuilt to subway standards (it looked much like the Broadway El). As for a three track line versus a four track line, I don't think that would have been a major reason not to keep the el as opposed to spending money on the subway. As has been mentioned in other posts, the C local vs the A express only saves a few minutes. Peak express service would have been fine.
I also believe that if there was no Fulton subway, they may have been more likely to keep the majority of the Rockaway line open also when the subway takeover happened, and connect it to Queens Blvd in addition to or instead of the Liberty el. One of the Queens Blvd local lines could have left Queens Blvd at 63rd Drive instead of going to Continental to cover the service, thus not adding extra traffic to the already crowded QB line.
The map would have more routes on it if the Concourse and Fulton subway was not built:
-There would have been a line on Fulton in the form of the dual contracts el
-A second Ave subway or some other needed line may have been able to be built with the money they used on the Concourse or Fulton Subway.
-The Rockaway line may be a subway line if they had connected it to QB instead of the Liberty el (If the Fulton subway did not exist it would have been smarter to connect it to QB, the natural connection. The Fulton Subway gave them a quick fix that would not of been as attractive if it was the Fulton el as opposed to the Fulton subway).
According to several things that I read, it was B of T policy from the late 40s through the beginning of the NYCTA not to connect the Rockaway line to the Queens Boulevard line, due to capacity issues. Whether or not that also covered diverting one of the existing local lines, I don't know.
The MFL's portals are well outside the CBD.
You wouldn't say that if you did a search of the archives for other Jersey Mike posts. :-)
Tom
CTA has embarked on a program to upgrade the "L". The Green Line (Lake, Jackson Park, Englewood) is complete. The Douglas line is currently being rebuilt, and the Ravenswood is next.
In case you hadn't noticed, the economy is in the toilet right now, and all local government entities are starving for cash. Subways are hideously expensive to build; Chicago is doing just fine with its "L"s and subways.
In the age before computer modeling, it was considered just prudent engineering to design a 100% safety margin into any bridge or other load bearing structure.
Tom
I do wish I could have seen the Manhattan els in operation, passing by the surrounding towers and tenements. There is nothing like walking down a street under the el. I always feel at home under `em. Just seems like the perfect way to accomodate the need for the central transportation service of a dense area. The noise, the shadows....I love `em. If there was an el train from here to California I'd be walkin' under it tomorrow. Once in a while stopping in a deli for a soda....
Can anybody confirm if this incident actually ever took place?
Wayne
Needless to say, it was a SLOW ride downhill, and I had greens as far as the Johnson could see. :)
No, you had to "work that thang" ... don't forget that in addition to fighting gravity, you also had signals that would start to clear, then change their mind and hang a bit before the trip dropped. So for some of them, you'd have to almost stop, for others they'd clear and you could let the train do a bit more of what it wanted to. That's why I slowpoked over the bridge. I wanted to see GREENS before I passed 'em.
How about bucking trains?
Sticky shoes and dead motors were just as common as ticky doors. You just did your time, paid your debt to society, charge up and go. I suppose there was something fundamentally wrong with us in TWU 100 back in the 70's ... we didn't NEED counseling nor did we complain much. We all had this fixed blank stare as we greeted one another at fallback time ... the "look" ... "this one's a DOG, ain't it?" No reply was necessary. Heh.
Let's face it, Kev - 1689 is our baby.:)
WIMPS. Heh. Nobody's DEMANDING you get off the train ... got no stones, then you can wait for the MIGHTY DIESEL. :)
A long wait if the problem is a derailment.
Tom
Still a long wait if you are in a tunnel or on the Manny B. :-)
Tom
1) It has the redbird style of interior lighting
2) The lights flicker
3) It runs on 96th Street and so did :( the redbirds
4) Its number makes it seem like it is an R-29
Yes, I'm suffering from R.W. (Redbird Withdrawl). But I got my fix today by riding the (7) and by riding 8627.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If you miss the redbirds, go on the 7 line. There should still be some there. There had BETTER still be some there, I need to take my last photos of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew someone would write that. You KNOW what I MEANT.
If you miss the redbirds, go on the 7 line.
In the post that you just replied to, I wrote: "But I got my fix today by riding the (7)..." Did you miss that?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Due to financial shortcomings, I won't be able to get a digital camera soon enough...I fear it will be too late for getting pictures of my 'birds! I am so unlucky...
---Choo Choo
I'm suffering from IRTRFWL(Interborough RailFan Window Loss). But I know how you feel. I miss the redbirds, too.
Just watch out and don't overdose.
Here's the Link. I believe Imagestation may make you sign in, but it only takes a few seconds to do that.
Here's a sample...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I am looking for some people to interview, and would love to chat with anyone on this list about why they are interested in subways or buses, how long have they been interested in them, what they find particularly interesting about them and any anecdotes they care to share.
Anyway, if you'd be willing to talk, I'm trying to wrap this up this week and would love to speak with you. Please feel free to email me individually at gfc2001@columbia.edu, or call me, if you wish, at 917-447-9965.
Again, I apologize if this message disturbed anyone. I thank everyone for their time and hope to talk to you soon.
Best regards,
Gaston F. Ceron
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Heh, and I am in the city and use the subway at least a few times a month.....many times at least once a week or once every other week for business.
Anyway though, I used to many times use the $4.00 FunPass when I used the subway. Many times I would make at least one exit out of the system, making my trip 3 rides so it was worth it. Whenever I used FunPass, I always was planning to make more than 3 rides, but usually once out of the system, I wound up walking if it was a nice day, and even if the rare occasion happened that I would only use 2 trips, I was only out $.50. (or about $1.08 if I would've used a $15.00 MetroCard). At $7.00, I will be sure that I will tak AT LEAST 4 or 5 rides (rare in one day for me), and will stick to the $10 or $20 MetroCard PPR.
I ride the subway a lot and I've never lost or damaged a card.
-Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
If you take the express bus 2 times a day 5 times a week it will cost $40 a week. To get $40 dollars on a pay-per ride metrocard you have to put more than $33 dollars on it ($33 + 20% = $39.6). And thats just the 2 ride a day on the express bus. If you want to go monthly, 4 7 day passes (28 days) comes out to $132, and 28 days for pay per ride costs $160. To get that with the discount, you need to put more than $133 a month on your metrocard. ($133 + 20% = $159.6). So even though its a few dollars less, the unlimited is still better and it gives you more options. Remember those numbers is taking it only during the week. If you ever take it on the weekends, or take a train somewhere during the day you are losing more money. I take the bus both ways every day, and a train and bus atleast twice a day, so the unlimited is the best for me. And you can just buy 4 7 day cards at once and just keep 3 at home, same as going for the 30 day pass.
The 6 fare $10 card is good. I see no problems with it.
It all depends on who is going to use the card.
I see no rip-off here. It's patently obvious how much use you need to get out of a fun pass for it to be a good deal. Just do the math, and figure out which card to buy.
In effect, the MTA has shifted the cost-benefit trade-off for different types of cards. A fun pass is no longer as good a deal as it was. But in compensation, the pay-per-ride, 7-day, and 30-day unlimited cards are now a better deal.
"You're better off getting a $21 7-day unlimited, that equals the price of 3 $7 fun passes."
It ain't necessarily so. If you're going to make a bunch of trips on one particular day, but are not a regular rider, a fun pass is a better buy than a 7-day unlimited.
"I hope people stop buying them, and give them horrible sales, that way the TA realizes what a stupid mistake they have made."
I don't think it's a mistake. The old fun passes were a money-saver after just 3 rides, and that was perhaps too generous. The MTA decided to give larger discounts to other types of riders--probably those who are in greater need of them. Seems fair to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I gotta admit, the joy of "socking it to them" for the GOP convention oughta help the city get even with them plutocrats come convention time. (although a few Sabretts woulda done da trick). Heh.
I'm going to take a RARE exception and print a newsletter to our customers here as just *ONE* example of why I quit the state for mass stupidity and unwillingness to buy a clue ...
Here's TODAY'S reality from that unregulated software company who promises everything and makes you kiss your pants on a daily basis ... and WHY Unca Selkirk's toast after ANOTHER 30 hour day figuring out the daily "what da fuh" factor ...
THEY'RE BAA-ACK!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little over two years ago, an exploit of Microsoft's "HyperText
Application" ("HTA") scripting capabilities surfaced, which allowed rogue
sites to load a script on the machines of victims and in turn, that SCRIPT
would create a Windows PROGRAM on their hard disk and then RUN it. It took
Microsoft a period of time after the exploit was publicized before Microsoft
did something about it, barely.
In the interim, while people were being victimized, we released a freebie
called "HTASTOP" which permitted people to BLOCK any attempts at installing
or even running an HTA script. This solved the problem for the several
months it required for Microsoft to deal with their problem. While
Microsoft's solution resolved the problem to a degree, it only removed the
danger from the "Internet Zone" and didn't ever deal with the problem of the
"Local Machine" or "My computer" security zone. Our free HTAstop however,
DID protect all zones from rogue scripts exploiting HTA holes.
Fast forward this past month. After so many patches, so many adjustments,
and new versions of Windows, the problem has returned with a vengeance.
About a month ago, a few spam emails were reported which contained various
attachments with filenames like ERROR.HTA or FREEPORN.HTA or other enticing
"click on me" names. In the past couple of days, and particularly TODAY,
more variations on this theme are appearing, claiming "returned email, click
on the attachment for more information" with respect to the "undelivered
email." So far, we've received reports from several hundred of our customers
telling us that our BOClean product applied the brakes for them and found
nasties on their machines.
What makes this twist even more of concern though is that the HTA script is
obfuscated within an MS "javascript" which causes the attachment to elude
ALL antivirus programs unless they are redefined to the specific characters
in a specific attachment. We've examined about 16 of these and there's no
opportunity for the typical "antivirus pattern match" on these files.
They're all different, and unique. And the "zombie" which is downloaded
reports back to a site which tracks carefully which nations and specific IP
addresses it has been successfully installed to. Of primary interest to the
culprits are the US, UK, Russia and Australia specifically, but other
nations carry lesser "weight" and are also included after reviewing the
unprotected site and its files that the script kiddies behind this are using
to cull the data from their trojan and run their scripts from.
The source of the file is the Mideast region although the specific country
has not yet been determined. However, the sheer number of reports from our
BOClean customers with respect to trojans found after clicking on these
attachments has been nothing less than STUNNING, especially considering that
the nasties in question arrive in SPAM! People still apparently OPEN SPAM,
and even worse, CLICK on attachments in SPAM!
The central theme of the various downloads are getting a "mass denial of
service bot" onto your system, then putting it to sleep awaiting command
from its "master." This portends of a serious situation ahead and the sheer
VOLUME of the emails indicates that if it's successful, it will be a MASSIVE
attack based on our examination of the DOWNLOADED nasty once the exploit
downloader successfully downloads same. The downloader making the rounds has
numerous download sites and fallback opportunities to other sites should any
of the primaries be shut down. It has the ability to contact many sites as
well as IRC's "dalnet" in order to FIND "updates" as has been typical for
quite some time. What makes THIS different is its apparent SUCCESS.
The most recently encountered HTA files contain a buried exploit of
Internet Explorer which causes it to visit various pre-programmed sites,
whereupon it begins to download a BACK DOOR TROJAN which is immediately
activated. The one we saw overnight downloads MIRC and sets up a back door,
a port flooder and a multiple instance denial of service zombie which at
this time "sleeps" for further activation. In examining the downloaded
"zombie" we've found additional obfuscation and "stealth" which continues to
elude even the BEST antiviruses entirely, even when it RUNS.
Our BOClean antitrojan software detects and deals with all of these items
as of our most recent updates. HOWEVER, the HTA exploit is of great concern
since it appears to be sufficiently successful that it's being exploited at
an exponential rate at this time. Even MORE disturbing is that, with all of
the "security improvements" Microsoft has claimed to make to Internet
Explorer and Outlook Express in making it nearly impossible to receive a
LEGITIMATE file attachment in email, the proprietary formats belonging to
Microsoft themselves have NEVER been "corralled" ... such as VBS, HTA and
others.
Since we made a free solution to this problem available back in April of
2001, we highly recommend that anyone (including our customers) download
this free utility. HTAstop does not need to be installed or uninstalled,
it's a stand-alone program that turns HTA within Windows on and off at will.
Over the time since we released this utility, HTA has STILL not been widely
used, therefore turning off HTA capabilities PERMANENTLY remains the most
effective solution to this long-standing exploit of Windows (all versions
from Win95 to XP) ... and if you KEEP the HTAstop utility handy (it's VERY
small) you can always reverse the system neutering should there ever occur a
LEGITIMATE need to run HTA. This exploit is yet another of many reasons to
NOT permit "scripting" to run AT ALL in Windows. It's been a continuing
nightmare and security hole that is the basis of the majority of all
exploits ever since Microsoft released their "Internet Explorer" browser.
And the exploits and security holes haven't stopped after a good number of
years of Microsoft trying to fix them without disabling their "internet
integration" entirely, which would actually solve the problem.
WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT THIS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROPERLY PATCHED systems will still HIDE "file extensions" ... so instead
of seeing a link marked "FREEPORN.HTA" you will see "FREEPORN" as something
to click on. Reality has demonstrated that people WILL click on it. This is
what the authors of this malware DEPEND on. If you have all "hide file
extensions" and "known safe programs" enabled (by default, Windows IS this
way) then you may be fooled and click on it.
File extensions CAN be shown:
http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/IN-2000-07.html
That alone will go a LONG way in DISCLOSING unknown, unsafe file
attachments. If a file attachment ends in .COM, .BAT, .PIF, .LNK, .WMA,
.EXE, .VBS, .SCR, .HTA or OTHER unsafe attachments, at least you'll now SEE
it!
If your system doesn't have ALL the patches (many Windows "fixes" are NOT
cumulative, if you missed the one that pops up an alert, then you're NOT
protected) or you've reloaded Windows and you're NO LONGER patched AT ALL,
then these HTA things will just RUN silently without so much as a warning or
whimper while they do their work completely hidden from view.
OTHER EXPLOITS OF NOTE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Microsoft is also battling demons with their WEBDAV, IIS, and numerous
other components that are part of their "web servers" and WindowsNT, 2000,
XP and certain machines that contain personal web servers, file sharing
tools such as KAZAA, GnuTella, WinMX, Napster and such. In fact the record
companies and others are exploiting the security holes in these and Windows
in general in order to SABTOAGE those running "file sharing software."
If you're DELIBERATELY running a remote server on your machine, then you're
at serious risk of being "trojaned" and the federal courts of the US are
refusing to prosecute corporate sabotage if you're a "thief." And all of the
patches out of Microsoft and other vendors are playing a "catch up" game
with existing, readily exploited back door trojans. Even this HTA outbreak's
purpose is to install a trojan to take over your system. And Microsoft is
NOT fixing the holes, nor are they backfilling your PRIOR "updates" if you
find yourself needing to reload Windows with all the pre-existing bugs and
holes on your "repair disk."
ARE YOU UNPATCHED?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most people who fall victim to old exploits (this one is STILL a risk,
Microsoft NEVER patched THIS one worth the proverbial "whistle") fall victim
to exploits because they're REINSTALLED WINDOWS! Sure you got your machine
all patched up once before. You did all the "Windows updates" and kept
Microsoft happy with your frequent visits.
When you "crash and burn" though, you end up reloading Windows again. What
about those patches? Whoops. A good number of Windows patches were "one of a
kind" releases and Microsoft is notorious for relocating their pages and not
maintaining them, so patches from a few years ago are GONE! And Microsoft
won't let you find them AGAIN if you're not using their LATEST version. In
other words, if you're running Win98, or ME, or NT, you're SCREWED. FORGET
Windows95, no patches at all!
Most people visit the "Windows update" site and allow Microsoft to
automatically install them. As a result, you don't HAVE a backup to use the
next time you reload Windows. If it's gone from their site, and you don't
know about the need for it, old exploits (like THIS two year old one) come
back to bite you. And Microsoft has NOT "cumulative patched" many of these
exploits. The HTA exploit has NEVER been fixed! The only solution Microsoft
has applied is a "script warning" *IF* you have it turned on. Default values
in Internet Explorer and Outlook Express are "RUN IT!"
IF you use "Windows update" all you're doing is letting Microsoft "check
your inventory" and then download and install a program without any means of
future reloading. Instead, note the updates available and then go to their
CORPORATE SITE and MANUALLY download the updates!
http://corporate.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/
Natch, you have to turn on everything HERE, but at least you can RIGHT
CLICK and "Save Target As" and end up with a file to run that you can copy
to a BACKUP DISK FIRST ... THEN you can run it and patch youself once you
have a COPY of the patch for the NEXT time Windows crashes and burns and you
need to reload your world, completely UNPROTECTED. THIS is the avenue by
which most of these exploits function.
DOWNLOAD HTASTOP, IT'S FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're not using BOClean, look for HTASTOP on our "freebies" page:
http://www.nsclean.com/freebies.html
Given the current popularity of HTA, we'd even recommend that our CUSTOMERS
download HTA stop and run it - while BOClean protects you against back door
trojans and similar nasties, the HTA exploiting going on just might permit
ordinary VIRUSES to slip past. Normally, incoming nasties known to the
Antivirus companies get stopped long before a trojan is allowed to actually
RUN where BOClean steps right up and trashes it. BOClean is NOT a substitute
for an antivirus program and the current exploits of HTA _ARE_ successfully
bypassing antivirus software. BOClean is intended to be a second layer of
defense for situations where a nasty slips past your antivirus given the
unique nature of backdoors and the continuing inability of antivirus
software to stop them once they've "implanted."
HTASTOP is provided FREE. Of course, we'd appreciate your looking at our
commercial software and considering buying a copy of what we make, but
there's no obligation, no spies, no nonsense with any of our freebies. They
have been provided to provide a limited subset of what our commercial
products provide, and are completely self-contained. We'll never bother you
if you choose to use one of our freebies, so feel free to grab a copy and be
safe without annoyance.
Please also understand that freebies are not supported officially, support
for our freebies are maintained on our website with all the answers you'll
need, links to them listed directly on the screen of the freebies themselves
to further ensure your privacy in not having to contact us if you don't want
to. Since these have been around for QUITE some time and folks have
contacted us for support in the past, they're MOST reliable and won't
REQUIRE support. :)
Elias : )
If you could afford to buy a fun pass every day you could afford to put you loose cahange in a piffy bank and save up to buy a weekly and with the money you save vs the fun pass eventually nuy a monthly pass
Why should the average rider have to pay for those who wish to mismanage thier money. It costs more to sell fun passes then to sell monthly passes, more maintance on the MVM.
As a child my parents taught me to save u p for what I wanted. I would put my change aside to save up to buy basebal cards. They were 40 cents a pack or 7 packs for $2. Lets just say I saved enough money out of my lunch money afford to buy 7 packs at a time reducing my cost per pack to 29 cents from 40 cents. I bought a 50 cent bagel for lunch instead of the $1.50 pizza combo. The economy of schale allowed me to stretch my $2 a day lunch money further
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
College man. Knows EVERYTHING!!!! (He'll learn.)
Posts some realy good pics of real oddball rail stuff. Seems to have PRR signal stuff down pat.
Now that undergrad time is drawing to a close, Mike may be moving to Charm City and may actually have to live in the real world.
In Toronto their Day Pass is $7 CDN. But you didn't see me complain about it. Why? It is good for 2 adults and up to 3 children. $7 CDN takes your WHOLE FAMILY to the ball game or restaurant or whatever, not the $35 USD it would in New York.
The lack of logic here is breathtaking. Even under the old fare structure, you had to take NYCT 3 times in one day before the Fun Pass paid for itself. The statement is evidently that you're going to DRIVE into the city, and then DRIVE to every destination instead of taking mass transit. This implies that you manage to find free parking at every destination. If you have to pay for parking even once, you can probably forget about any savings--even at the new fare levels. I doubt seriously that "most people" would consider this a great idea. Add to that the inconvenience of getting back to your car, driving on city streets, finding a new parking place, and so forth.
This grossly insults the intelligence of most people. There can't be many people who drive into New York, aside from the rare novice, who are unaware that you normally have to pay to park, or have to be very skilled at finding free street parking.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe for you perhaps.
For me a 30 day pass did not make sense since I don't always use the subway or bus on weekends. I am usually a 5 day a week - to and from work. If I had a doctor appointment during the week I would use the Fun Pass because it would save me at least $1.50 or $3.00. If I knew I had other things that would require me to use the system more than 10 times (2x a day for 5 days) I would by the weekly unlimited.
I think each person has their own situation and if they are smart enough (by which I mean have some common sense) they will be able to which card is the best for thier needs.
Maybe you should break open your piffy bank (yes that is what he type) and do a deeper review of your economy of scale (not schale - where did you learn that, in grammer scool?)
So because I can afford a $63 monthly card, I don't deserve a discount?
Where's your logic in that?
Perhaps I may simply budget my costs so that I can afford the monthly and save money over paying per ride or by buying weeklies?
Chip
Going strictly by demand, the daily commuters are the captive audiance and thusly should experiance higher fares. It is the occasional riders who have more options, either by choosing not to travel or by taking alternate means (cab or car). The MTA should be trying to compete on a price level with the occasional rider.
It is obsene how much on a per-trip basis transit costs for the casual user. If I weren't a railfan I would never take transit into urban areas as the cost is almost what I would pay to drive, but without the convience of driving. When I'm on NJT I am like the only guy on the train who dosen't have a monthly pass. Problems with pollution, congestion and oil consumption will never be solved unless people choose transit as their prefered travel option with the car used for extreme circumstances. If transit and car travel almost cost the same, most people will drive.
Now, I realize that by strict supply/demand theory the captive audience should pay more, but NYTC has never been priced that way. If you think there was community outrage over the latest fare increase, it was nothing compared to what you'd hear if the new philosophy was "sock it to those who are most desperate."
The TTC in Toronto has I think an 83% farebox recovery and they have very liberal, affordable day passes and an unlimited free transfer system that allows one to keep riding the system until they die. The trains there are very well patronized even on Sunday early afternoons. People in Toronto use transit because it is affordable and easy. With more people regarding transit as their #1 choice the TTC has a very high revenue flow.
Very interesting. You think that moving the occasional weekend visitor to the city from an automobile to public transportation should have a high priority, as opposed to getting those who commute daily to and from work. It seems to me the more important ones to encourage to use public transportation rather than drive are the daily commuters, and that is exactly what the pricing structure favors heavy users.
Tom
Under the new structure, the same month would cost $73.33 so a 30-day unlimited at $70 is a good deal.
Now, that person can ride the subway on weekends for free, discouraging use of the car. I prefer to use a car on weekends, unless the subway is free.
Go Figure!
If you commute daily by subway--as a heluva lot of New Yorkers do--you're paying at least that much already. It's merely a question of whether you do so in a single purchase, or you pay for rides one at a time.
Unless you're one of the few New Yorkers who can walk to work, you're undoubtedly taking mass transit, and $63 per month (now $70) is about as cheap as the commute can get.
30-day passes are used primarily by everyday rush hour commuters. Fun Passes are used by people hopping around the city making lots of stops during the day.
Rush hour riders are expensive. Rolling stock requirements are set by rush hour service demands. Capital improvements are built to alleviate rush hour crowding.
Off-peak riders cost next to nothing to accomodate. The trains and tracks are there anyway. In many cases, the service has to run anyway. Those empty seats might as well be filled.
Thanks in large part to a reasonably priced Fun Pass, a majority of subway ridership is now off-peak. That's great news. So why are we trying to undo it by penalizing off-peak riders and rewarding rush hour riders?
Per day used, it costs NYCT more to accomodate a 30-day pass user than a Fun Pass user. Prices should be set accordingly.
If more people buy their fares in large quantities these coasts could be cut drastically.
Your argumetn holds no water becasue most rush hour ridership can not be moved to off hours
Station agents don't sell Fun Passes. Never have.
If more people buy their fares in large quantities these coasts could be cut drastically.
I'd love to buy Fun Passes in bulk. They've never been sold in bulk. A 30-day unlimited is not equivalent to 30 Fun Passes.
Your argumetn holds no water becasue most rush hour ridership can not be moved to off hours
But much off-peak ridership is discretionary, as the recent increases in off-peak ridership demonstrate. Now that the Fun Pass is so expensive, that off-peak ridership, which costs almost nothing to accomodate, will decrease, as will the fares that ridership brought in. People will make do with one or two rides, people will walk, people will drive.
Tell me what you think of these alternative options that NYCT might be persuaded to offer:
(a) $4.50 or $5.00 off-peak Fun Pass, not valid weekdays 6-9am.
(b) $21.00 Fun Pass 5-pack (unlimited rides on 5 nonconsecutive days for the same price as unlimited rides on 7 consecutive days).
(c) $70.00 Fun Pass 20-pack (unlimited rides on 20 nonconsecutive days for the same price as unlimited rides on 30 consecutive days).
(d) Replacement of the two-hour PPR free transfer window with a two-hour unlimited ride window.
So, of David's ideas, the $5 off-peak Fun Pass seems to me the most promising.
In London, a one day pass costs alittle bit more than 2 single fares in the central business distrit; but it is not good befoe 9:30 in the morning. Do the sae in NY...make a one day pass available after 9:30 for abot $4.50...this will get lots of people onto the system in off peak hours and might even switch the discretonary riders out of the AM crush.
It is not a stupid mistake if the people who stop buying Fun Passes still take public transportation and spend more money doing it.
Tom
If it weren't for the funpass, I would have had to smoke INSIDE fare control. The fun pass allowed me to leave, go up to the ATMOSPHERE, suck down cigarettes as the nicotine fits took hold, then swipe back in without exposing "customers" to nasty smoke or violating the law.
So I submit that the only VALID reason for a fun pass is for smokers who don't want to kill the customers. OBVIOUSLY the MTA would rather we set a track fire as we sneak one past the gates so as to not pay an additional fare for "stopping off" somewhere. :)
I'd use it if I was sure of 3 rides with a likely 4th. Now I'd want to be really sure of 4 rides with a very likely 5th at the absolute minimum.
Fun passes expire at 3:00 A.M. the day after purchase. You have at least three hours usage if you first use it just before midnight, and almost 15 hours usage if you first use it just after midnight. Unlimited do not have transfer privileges as such, so that is not an issue.
Tom
You was robbed. Next time use your employee pass. Seriously, the MTA web site gives the expiration time as 3:00 A.M.
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
IINM, unlimiteds do have transfer privileges. If you swipe into the subway at 2:30am on a Fun Pass, 30 minutes before expiration, you'll have until 4:48am to board a bus.
Not the day after purchase, but the day after first use.
David, 4 PPR rides may cost $6.67 but the turnstile is still deducting $8.00 from the card.
The savings comes when you buy the card - not when you use it because the full fare is always deducted on that first swipe or dip.
---Choo Choo
If you buy a $10 PPR card, it's good for six rides at any time . If you buy a $7 fun pass, it's good for unlimited rides, all of which must be on the same day.
If you take exactly 4 rides on your Fun Pass, you're out $7. If you take exactly 4 rides on your PPR card, you're out $10, but you still have two rides left that can be used another day. Which option is the better deal depends on whether you have any plans to use the two leftover rides.
For someone not planning to use NYCT again in the foreseeable future, the Fun Pass is a bargain after the 4th ride. For regular riders, the Fun Pass is a bargain after the 5th ride.
Is it actually possible to spend $13.35 on a PPR metrocard?
I'd also like to add $10.43 plus 20% bonus (=$12.51) to my card that has $1.50 on it. Is that possible?
Say I'm planning to take four rides per day on each of ten days. Do I buy Fun Passes or do I buy a PPR? Ten Fun Passes would cost me $70. Forty trips on a PPR would cost me $66.67 (or, since the machines don't accept penny increments, $66.70). I'm better off buying the PPR.
The effective fare is $2.00 only for someone who intends to take up to five trips ever. That doesn't apply to most New Yorkers. That doesn't even apply to most tourists who would consider using the Fun Pass.
People are forgetful, cards get damaged and expire. Why do you think retailers LOVE gift certificates?! I have heard that the $$ that is never redeemed through gift certificates and store credits approaches 25%.
That figure isn't far off, but you have to take into account what it includes. First, that figure includes unredeemed credits/certificates due to the store or restaurant going out of business or being sold to a new owner who is under no obligation to honor credits/certificates from the prior owner (that all depends, of course, on the specifics of the sale of the business, but usually credits/certificates are retained as liabilities by the prior owner rather than being transferred to the new one). These represent well over half of unredeemed store credits and almost half of unredeemed gift certificates. Another 25% of unredeemed gift certificates are restaurant certificates given as gifts and simply never redeemed because the recipient has no interest in the restaurant or is geographically too far away to redeem it. Eliminate those two categories and less than 8% of credits and gift certificates are unredeemed after one year, less than 9% if you include the restaurant certificates mentioned above.
Another interesting tidbit: ten years ago, 12% of gift certificates purchased with a credit card were purchased with a stolen card. As more stores electronically track their gift certificates, that percentage has declined; I don't have current figures. (When I was in the retail hobby business our credit card contract required us to tie credit-card-purchased gift certificates to a specific transaction so that we could cancel unredeemed certificates if it was later determined that they had been purchased with a stolen card, thereby reducing the bank's liability. We never had much trouble with stolen cards, though.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only gift certificates that I ever give as gifts are Federal Reserve Gift Certificates. They're accepted in EVERY store in the country and many abroad! You can even change them for gift certificates sold by foreign banks.
For one thing, PPR cards can be used on express buses, where the charge is double. I suppose the express bus could take two rides off your card, but I think it's easier to understand if it takes $$ off. Also, the 20% discount applies no matter how much money you put on your card--even if it results in a fraction of a ride.
I do not think that NYC could ever have distance pricing, aside from express buses. The whole fare collection infrastructure would need to be totally redesigned--a drastic change that would make the change from token to MetroCard look like child's play.
When the PATH fare was to go up to $1.50 from $1.00 you should have seen the lines of people waiting to by the 20 and 40 trip tickets from the vending machines. PATH must have lost a small fortune on that.
No, PATH wasn't an ASSHOLE and didn't try to suck its customers dry. PATH respects the people who ride it and provide a quality service at reasonable prices. Besides, it was probably more benificial to PATH to get the revenue up front rather than spread out over months and months and don't forget the bonus they get from all those lost and stolen cards. PATCO was similarily not a jerk when it raised its fares and the same with SEPTA and the MBTA.
For the tiny minority who travels alone and only spends one day in NYC ever, yes, the Fun Pass is a good deal for four rides plus up to four free transfers. For the rest of us, it's a good deal only for five rides plus up to five free transfers.
I have traveled alone on transit in San Francisco, London, Chicago, and Paris, and not come back again within 2 years. I think lots of people visit NYC alone and don't come back for a long time again.
But for just about everyone who posts on this board, and many tourists, the right comparison is against a PPR with 20% bonus.
The 4 rides will cost $8. If you spend $10 you will get 5 fares automatically plus the 20% bonus of 1 fare.
If someone spends $10 and only gets 4 fares then they aren't paying much attention.
You mean you would never come back?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Well it's best with a car, but years back I used to take the M to Metro, and then walk through the cemetery. But that would leave you on the wrong side of the tracks. You used to be able to cut through the tracks to Otto Rd from the cemetery, but they don't let you do that anymore. You could take the Myrtle Ave bus and it's about a four block walk from Myrtle Ave. Look at a map. The yard (and the best photo opps) are on Otto Road between 69th St and about 66th Street.
Is it a good spot for taking photo?
Definitely. Most of the times I've been through there there are M7's on flatcars, and also R142's when delivered. You got to take it by luck for the LIRR and subway deliveries. But there is always freight activity. CP Rail engines (there also the other day), NYA engines, etc.
Is it safe around the area?
100% safe. And I'm not just saying that because I am not scared of most NYC neighborhoods. Even someone that is scared of his own shadow would feel safe in Glendale.
70-something, probably. 8xyz are Metro-North Metro- and "Cosmo-"politans. There may still be some numbers duplicated between LIRR and MNR, but I expect that practice is now over.
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The M-2/4/6 cars are nicknamed Cosmopolitans, as a complement to the MTA M-1/3s, nicknamed Metropolitans. As you probably know, they're the New Haven MU cousins to the M-1/3s, and can be powered from an electrified third rail or overhead caternary. Similar, but different. Cute, huh?
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's certainly got to be classier than what passes for a bar car elsewhere, but turns out to be a bar cart.
Mar
And yes part of the trip was that we were able to ride the gondola cars (two in the consist) all the way from Jamaica to Greenport and back, so you can imagine that I didn't spend too much time inside the train...bar car or coaches!
....chapped lips and split-ends on hair not included.....
---Choo Choo
Ain't that the truth. It was unbelieveable, probably one of the best fan trips I have ever been on. It was so much fun. The speed was great (it seems much faster when you are "outside" the train).
---Choo Choo
Oh no?!?!
601-606 came from Louisville & Nashville
607-610 came from Western Maryland
611-616 came from Burlington Northern (originally SP&S)
617-618 came from Penn Central (originally NH)
619-620 F-7's from MILW
621-622 F-7's from B&O but never got rebuilt.
See the first picture on this page.
The station was renamed "Botanic Garden" sometime after the Malbone Street Wreck. In 1928 the current Botanic Garden station was built and Consumers Park/Botanic Garden was closed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Order of stops toward Flatbush from Franklin Av:
President,Sterling,Winthrop,Church,Beverley,Newkirk,Flatbush
Towards New Lots from Franklin Av:
Nostrand,Kingston,Utica,Sutter,Saratoga,Rockaway,Junius,Pennsylvania, Van Siclen,New Lots
On Queens Blvd from Queens Plaza to Union Tpke:
QP,36,Steinway,46,Northern,65,Roosevelt,Elmhurst,Grand,Woodhaven,63,67, 71,75,Union
I did all of this WITHOUT looking at the subway map for those who are 'curious'.
And that doesn't happen very often, right? A person falling between the cars while moving from one car to another?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Gateway
B13 Spring Creek
Gateway Mall
B20 East NY
Stanley Av
Mail Fac
I wish the would have built a real mall there instead of the supersized stores like target, BJ's The Home Depot.
Glenn L. Rowe...
Who is he? Does he post at SubTalk? Does he work for the MTA? How does he get into the yards to take photos?
And why did he have to send in the above photo? I want to cry.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
That number is familiar... 'tis almost like I rode it last week or days ago..
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
IIRC, you photo snapped it recently, Brian?
(memoirs of having run up to the platform only to have a redbird
consist honk-honk me and skip the station.. 4.4.03)
#3 West End Jeff
In 1896, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad completed a capital improvement program along the New Haven to New York mainline This program included the elevation of the railroad through Stamford, Norwalk, and Bridgeport to eliminate grade crossings and resultant accidents. On July 5, 1896, Signal Station 44 in went into service in South Norwalk, and is the 44th interlocking station from New York. The tower is 1530 feet east of Norwalk and South Norwalk Station. The building is a three story structure, twelve feet by 35 feet, constructed from stone, brick and wood. Heavy timber frame is used to support the switch machine.
Electric signaling systems were installed in 1913, during electrification of the New Haven mainline. Three position signals were installed October 7, 1916. The present 68 lever mechanical Johnson interlocking machine was installed December 14, 1919. This type of interlocking machine is commonly called an "Armstrong" machine, due to the strong arms required to throw the levers. "Interlocking" refers to the feature in the machine in which switches and signals are connected as to prevent the operator attempting to line up conflicting routes, which would cause a collision. The most important protection to travelers and freight during the era in which the tower was in service was this protection for trains moving from one of the four tracks to another. This protection ensured that two trains were never on the same track simultaneously.
The tower controlled movements between Low Street in South Norwalk and the Norwalk River Bridge. It also controlled movements on the former Wilson Point Branch, the original terminus of the Danbury and Norwalk Railroad.
In 1969, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad became the New Haven region of the Penn Central. This inclusion was a condition of approval of the merger between the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central System. Following Pennsylvania practice, the tower was renamed "BERK", indicating the junction of the Berkshire Line to Pittsfield, Mass.
The tower was in continuous service until 1984, when a new tower was constructed on the north side of the tracks several hundred feet to the east.
Control of the signals and switches passed to dispatchers in Grand Central shortly thereafter when Metro-North, the current operator of the New Haven Line automated all train control between New York and Devon at Grand Central. SS-44 is one of two remaining examples of a manual interlocking tower in Connecticut.
Museum Operations
The SONO Switch Tower Museum will be furnished and equipped as it was during active service in the 1950's. A gift shop will be located on the first floor and will offer railroad memorabilia and brochures on local activities.
The second floor is an integral part of the operating portion of the Museum. This floor contains the base of the interlocking machine with switch locks and other electrical components. The area opposite the machine will display historic railroad items donated and/ or loaned to the Museum. These items may include locomotive bells, whistles, lanterns and similar items.
The third floor is the operational portion of the Museum. It features the 68 lever machine that once controlled switches and signals. The levers will be restored to operating condition to demonstrate what the Operators did when the Tower was in active service. Future plans include using a scale model of the SONO area tracks to demonstrate the operations of actual train movement.
The Museum will be open weekends, May through October from 10 AM to 4 PM.
On July 5, 1896, Signal Station 44 in went into service in South Norwalk, and is the 44th interlocking station from New York.
NO, it is at MILEPOST 44. I believe that Milage is measured from Oak Point.
The Flyover
Between Hoffman's and CP-Unionville the branch is doubletrack. Between Hoffmans and Fullers the tracks are numbered,
from the north, 2 and 1; at Fullers there is a flyover, and track 1 become the northern track. The flyover is located where U.S.
Route 20 passes under both tracks, so this produces a rather spectacular double overpass. The lower bridge is a girder bridge,
while the upper one is a truss bridge. Just east of the flyover, where the tracks' grades are already separated, the branch passes
over the dam at the outlet of the Watervliet Resevouir. This is a spectacularly beautiful -- if small -- area, with hiking and biking
trails. The branch sits well in this little area.
As a historical note on this local oddity, we long wondered exactly why this flyover was right here, and what it did. We
collected the following information from various sources, but finally located a logical and authoritative explanation (which is, in
effect, number 4 on the following list):
1.In the book Images of America: Guilderland, N.Y. (Charlston, S.C.: Arcadia Publishing, 1999), Alcie
Begley and Mary Ellen Johnson state (on page 57) that the grade crossing was eliminated in 1927, and that
"within a few years" the second overpass was added to aid locomotives pulling heavy trains up "the heavy
grades upgrade at Frenchs Hollow." They include a nice photo of an RDC coming over the upper bridge
here.
2.There is some speculation that the flyover is a relec from the previous incarnation of Selkirk Yard, where
there were two humps. Was the flyover necessery when tracks were signalled for only one direction and
westbounds emerged on the southernmost track? [NO -- the old yard was right-handed!]
3.Alternatively, it has been recalled by some that there was the need to bring freight traffic from the south side
of the branch at the "Army Depot" (Guilderland Center, now the Northeast Industrial Park) to the north
side at the Burdick Road area: the flyover brought this local freight traffic across the branch's main.
4.Another suggestion has to do with the track arrangements along the Hudson Division (i.e., the Hudson
Line) vs. the arrangements along the Mohawk Division (i.e, the Chicago Line). On the Hudson Division, the
freight tracks were the center two tracks while the passenger tracks were the outter two tracks. On the
Mohawk Division, the tracks were two-and-two: the passenger tracks were the two southern tracks (with
right-handed running, and the stations were all on the south side of the line), while the freight tracks were
the two north tracks (with left-handed running). So, the bridges may have had something to do with this
"sorting out" of the tracks between the two divisions, making the right-hand running Selkirk Branch (as it
emerged from the yard) into the left-handed running Selkirk Branch prior joining the Mohawk Division.
And that is it: basically, number four. We recieved the following information from Gordon A. Davids:
When the NYC built four tracks between Albany and Buffalo, long before Selkirk Yard was built, they were numbered from
south to north as 2,1,3,4. Odd numbered tracks were signaled for westward traffic, and even numbers for eastward. The
principle was that traffic on the two middle tracks ran in the same direction (westward), so passenger trains passed freight trains
on the adjacent track, rather than meeting them head-on. In order for the freight traffic not to meet passenger traffic head-on on
adjoining tracks, the freight tracks ran left-handed, so that west-bound passenger trains would meet west-bound freights by
over-taking them, and there would be one track between west-bound passenger trains and east-bound freights, two tracks
between east-bound passenger trains and west-bound freights. It was a safety measure. So the passenger railroad (tracks 1
and 2) operated right handed, and the freight side ran left handed on tracks 3 and 4.
The major passenger stations west of Albany (Utica, Rochester, etc.) were all on the south side of the right of way, between
the railroad and the Mohawk River. The two passenger tracks were likewise on the south side of the right of way, running in a
standard right-handed operation. (A notable exception was Fonda -- which may have predated the four tracking, not a major
source of passenger traffic, and a junction station with the F.J. & G.) Freight and passenger traffic were separated at Syracuse,
but the passenger tracks ran through the city, and freight used the old West Shore Lake Line past Clark Street (GS) to the
north.
The freight yards west of Hoffmans were on the north (freight) side of the railroad, and were arranged for left hand operation.
The westbound hump at Dewitt was south (left) of the eastbound hump, for instance. All three NYC lines east of Albany and
Selkirk were double track, with right-hand operation (as is the current yard when viewed from the west), so the original Selkirk
was a right-handed yard and traffic had to be flipped from the left-handed operation west of Albany to the right-handed
operation of Selkirk Yard and the east.
The Fullers Jumpover reversed the track handedness for freight trains, allowing the change from left hand to right hand
operation without any trains crossing over between tracks. They could have done the same thing with two crossovers, but it
would have been an operating nightmare with trains slowing to cross over, trains waiting for trains, and the potential for head-on
collisions.
They placed the Jumpover at Fullers Crossing so they only had to bridge one track over Western Turnpike for the crossing
separation. Thus a location where it was already necessary to have a bridge was an ideal choice to build a second bridge; thus
(1) the flyover and (2) it being at Fullers over Route 20. Along with this, the Selkirk Branch passes over the Chicago Line at
Hoffmans. This is in order to get the two left-hand running freight tracks onto the north side of the right of way, with the
passenger tracks on the south side.
(NON-FLUSHING because Redbirds are still active therein)
4 Woodlawn R33 9278
Railfan Window from Kingsbridge to Atlantic Avenue.
Hit 49 in the Joralemon tubes!!
Hit 52-54 (don't remember) through Joralemon.
7920
7925
here
Peace,
ANDEE
Brian
< D > Concourse Exp.
I *still* can't get over the look on YOUR face when I reached down and handed you a piece of your operating position that fell off in my hands. Heh. Don't play with me, boy! You nearly CHIT yourself when I handed you a piece of the coupler and said, "I think you should turn this in." ... Boowahahahahaha ...
I already know what an anticlimber is (it's something that prevents the train from going over another if a crash should occur), but where do I find it? Hell, I don't even know what it looks like. I even did an archive search and came up with a thread asking what they are. You did respond with answers that would have benefited me, but the images didn't work since David changed the way images are displayed on here.
Help me out, Selly!!
SHYYYYYYYYT.... here I was thinking all this time that ANTI CLIMBER meant
the pole-edged object down about WHEEL level... the pole that sticks outward
IN FRONT OF EACH WHEEL...
Damn... more details/pointers, anyone??
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6240.jpg
Note that immediately above the coupler is a line of corrugated metal, running across the car from one side to the other.
THIS is the Anti-Climber! Gaze upon it and know it in all it's anti-climbatorial glory!
I ALWAYS thought that line pattern was just a (between car) platform
RIDGE.... and that it was only there for design.... F me..
this is what I REALLY believed.
Thank G*D for SubTALK!
O:)
THANKS FOR TEACHING, BRAHS!!
Duh, is it to the side of the coupler? BTW, what is that?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=492180
It's the part that's curved around the front and back of the car AT the floorline - the carbody in the picture is yellow, the anticlimber is the black ridged part ABOVE the coupler that looks like:
_________________
=================
... which goes from left edge to right edge of the car. If a car wants to do it doggie-style with another car, they're supposed to catch, like fingers and stop the climb of another car ...
No, I didn't get a chunk.
Sorry you didn't get any ... they're actually pretty tasty when glazed. :)
Thanks Selly! I got it now!
It the piece of stray steel that extends from below the carbody and seems to be to the left according to out own POV. I'm sure that's it.
Amazingly, that car is now featured on this site in the "latest images" section, alas being prepared for reefing :(
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_25005.jpg
It's strange how we seem to have a greater appreciation of things once they're gone.
I'm hoping against hope that some Redbirds will still be around on the 7 this October.
Time before that it was R33ML 8825 from Bowling Green to 59th St on a 4 or 5 train. I remember that train well, because earlier that day I had lost one of my friends at Brooklyn Bridge, he got on a R142 6 train, me and another friend didn't, so we spent the whole day looking for him. This trip came after we got back together at 5 at the WTC memorial, and it was one of those times when everything seemed right with the world, after a day spent in shear panic. Oh, and that was the first time I saw a genuine NYC subway rat, running down the platform at Wall St, just as the doors popped open he dashed across, pursued by like 4 little kids.
from the Boston Globe
Fulton to Wall on the 2/3 is about 560 feet!
Here are my measurements (end of platform to end of platform):
- The midpoint of a train is 50 feet south of the south side of Fulton.
- The midpoint of a train is 5 feet north of the south side of Pine St.
- From the south side of Pine to the south side of Fulton on William St. is 1125 feet.
Since an IRT train is 510 feet long, we have 1125-50-5-510=560.
The question was meant to comprehend stations that are still in service. When you start counting abandoned stations, difficult ontological questions intrude. No one disputes that 18th St (as well as Worth and 91 Sts) were closed because, after platform lengthening, two adjacent stations would have been practically on top of one another. But measuring the distance from a lengthened to an un-lengthened station is apples to oranges. And there are many other stations that were abandoned because they were too close to some other station. I suspect there are examples closer than 14th/18th.
Incidentally, no one on this thread has mentioned Aquaduct and Aquaduct/N.Conduit, which also seem to be extremely close.
Unfortuniutly NYCT riders are not trained as commuter rail riders to show up for a train at X time
It just makes sense to increase the frequency of service
Also remember that the long headways make it hard to transfer trains. Unless the place you are going to is on the line that takea you home, knowing what time the first train comes does you little good
You've posted this same suggestion about 20 times. Can you please support it with facts and/or reasoning (maybe you have, but I haven't seen them)?
You are suggesting that on specific lines at about 11 PM the trains should be broken up into 2 halves, and then each run as OPTO trains for the night, and then put back together again in the morning.
How long does it take to split apart a train and send extra trains to the yard? After accounting for the labor required to split and recombine the trains, how many OPTO trains per hour can NYCT actually run with the current crews (presumably this isn't a suggestion to add expense)?
On which lines would half-sized OPTO trains have enough capacity? Remember, if NYCT runs run half-size trains every 12 minutes, they've reduced capacity.
How much equipment is available with which NYCT can run OPTO trains? How many lines would that cover?
Are there any union-negotiated work rules that get in the way of this proposal?
(You've posted this same suggestion about 20 times. Can you please support it with facts and/or reasoning (maybe you have, but I haven't seen them)?
He's the Voice of Reason, not the Voice of Knowledge. He's provided his reasoning, but he doesn't have any facts.
No, $2.00 apparently WONT get you that treatment.
Show me a clubgoer who actually WATCHES the time..... :s
After having 5 drinks at a club, do you REALLY think a clubgoer will be able to watch the time?
1sf9
Doesn't know a club with a CLOCK in the main area..
Mt friends know what time the Q arrives southbound at union square. The problem that to get to many locations you need to transfer to the Q to complete your journey. With long headways and full length trains, this is not practical. That is why shorter more frequent OPTO service would bennift the public. Even if the MTA does not save a rat cent. That is not my goal
1) How much did it cost to put up said sign?
2) How many commuters were left waiting on the platform for a "Rockaways" train which will never arrive?
3) How many commuters actually use the stairway in question?
And you wonder why we have a repeat of the 1975 fiscal crisis. Government is government, before and always!
When the day comes, let me know when you go to post, I'll beat the qwap out of anyone who tries to get NEAR the foamer glass so's I can do your first run with ya. :)
He could even give you a 'Pop-quiz', since he IS your Pop after all! LOL!
Utica Ave had a practice test today but I remembered it after I left. D'oh!
I know they want 5 years full-time expereince but what about a bachelor's degree and 3.5 years full time experience?
PS: I am very unsatisfied frustrated with my currnet job and this has been a long time dream. =)
College and/or Vocational education may be subsituted for work experience at the rate of 30 credits for each year of full time work. However, all candidates MUST have at least one year full time work experience (part-time is accepted as work experience, but on a pro-rated basis.)
So, go ahead and get that $50 M.O. and download the application from the DCAS of MTA website. I hope you achieve that dream.
Anyone who's known me as a kid will see. =)
Postal Money Order, filled out forms sent USPS Priority. The work is good and fifty bucks is a good investment. CI peter
You'd be QUITE good at the gig, but like I told ya - Branford is a LOT more fun and a lot less chit than the "real deal" ... you'd be pulling a Selkirk in reverse. I'll pray for ya, boobe ...
-Stef
But I *know* Unca Lou will get RIGHT into the groove - he's got the right attitude and the right experience to do well with the TA ... but everything he knows from Branford *is* wrong as he'll see. Personally, I prefer Branford as an operating environment though the paycheck REALLY zuckz. :)
I was known though for a booming loud, "Yo MORON! Let go of the damned door. I ain't opening it." That was permitted back then even if unofficially, often to applause from others. Today, you'd be sent in for regrooving after three weeks on the street. :-\
I don't think today's TA would want someone like me.
I am reminded of a story I heard from a young lady during my first trip to Europe in 1977. She was on her way to Lincoln Center along with some friends and took a 1 train from Times Square. When they got to 66th, they couldn't get off in time and went on to 72nd St. After changing platforms, they boarded a s/b train "but nobody told us it was an express." Yep, they went all the way back to Times Square.
There was an older gentlemen from Brooklyn on that trip who had ridden on the subway all his life. We got into a spirited discussion on subways, after which he complimented me for bringing back nice memories. He even said that if a conductor caught you horsing around, he'd throw you off the tain at the next stop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some poeple just want to operate a train. I don't know much about the other RRs, but I understand there's a lot of qualifying and certification to be done. So NYCT may be the easy way about doing it. Take the test, get trained, take a train for a spin.
Go to the Civil Service bookstore in lower Manhattan. Buy a copy of the motorman's practice exams. I wonder if it will contain examples of the first "open competitive" exam.
It seems as though the TA is strict about hiring people with work experience. My guess is that they don't want young kids anymore. I don't know the average age of a T/O who was hired off the first "open" exam, but I'd bet the age is around 35-40.
Depends on if you're O/C or Promo. O/C will probably get the usual test: math, timetables, basic stuff.
Promo will see troubleshooting as well (ex, I saw a sample practice test yesturday at Utica: "When a train has a grounded shoe beam, what has occurred?"). Study guys.
"You hear that Elizabeth, I'm coming to join ya' honey".
;) Jimmy
Anyone know where I can get a copy or some sort of study guide?
Thanx...
Civil Service Book Shop
89 Worth Street
Tribeca
(212) 226-9506
Best of luck! If you make it to schoolcar, it'll be an eyeopener. You'll learn that everything the foamers and foamettes told you is wrong. :)
When might we know in real numbers the impact this may or may not be having on the subway.
I walked to Manhattan again this morning and intend to walk home every day untill it gets cold again. Many in my area are doing the same or cycling.
Plus there's the exidus factor. Some number of people will simply move out of New York.
Still others will have to move furhter out to areas that are even more dependet on the subway.
High unemployment means less riders too.
Is there any way to gage these trends by the accounting of subway ridership?
If the past is prologue, many of those who move out will be those that benefitted from the public employee pension enhancements, tax cuts funded by underfunding the pensions and increasing debts, and other goodies handed out by the pols in the 1990s.
We were robbed. Again. And this time, with welfare rolls down at historic lows, you can't blame the minority poor (though the Post still tries). And this time, they didn't just suck the city dry, as in the late 1960s and 1970s. They did it to the whole state.
Does Ron no-longer-in-Bayside hear this? With every deal over the past six years I ranted here and elsewhere, and he accused me of saying the sky is falling, and I should just write a letter to our wonderful Governor and State Legislature they'd do the right thing. They knew what they were doing. I didn't.
Actually, we both knew what they were doing.
I assume you're doing this because the exercise is good for you and not to save money. A round trip on the subway each weekday will now cost you $70 for 22 weekdays, and any weekend bonus trips are free. Back in 1995 it would have cost you $66 for the 22 weekdays, and each weekend extra trip would have been another $3, and any bus trips to get to the subway would have been extra too.
I need that $70 per month more than ever.
Besides its nice to walk.
Some things have only gone up in price by 6% in 8 years the way a daily round trip subway ride has, but there aren't many.
I don't smoke, I don't drive a car, I don't own property, I don't make $150,000 a year so those other increases don't affect me directly, still, I've got to cut something.
And, returning to my original point, I am not the only one judging from the sharp increase in Pedestrian/cycling traffic on both the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges this week.
---Choo Choo
My Dad told a story where his friend, newly arrived in New York City,
used the El to go to and from work downtown to 72nd Street. He caught
the same train promptly each day after work for a week. One afternoon he was late to the station. He caught what he thought was the same train and found himself going not uptown, but under the East River to Brooklyn.
We are now in process of writing Dad's book and would like the stories
to be as accurate as possible.
Is it possible that the El and Subway
trains looked that much alike?
Is it possible that the El and Subway trains shared the same stations at a site such as the City Hall--Brooklyn Bridge area?
Thank you,
Mike and Carolyn Durak
By 1928, did the BMT and the IRT share the same tracks, tunnels, or stations?
Mike
The only other station I can think of offhand which you could describe as "shared" would be Times Square where you could go between the IRT and BMT without going outside, but they had separate control areas and there was no free transfer.
The IRT and BMT shared (and share) the same tunnel structure under part of Flatbush Avenue but do not share the same tracks or stations.
Also, the IRT 1939 map shows a subway line running north from Grand Central Station and called the Lexington Avenue Line...did that line exist in 1928?
Thanks, Mike
Since the IRT and BMT were in competition with each other (aside from the Astoria/Flushing joint service), their respective route maps would only show their own lines and not mention the other companies services.
In fact in each of the maps there is not indication that the Astoria/Flushing services were jointly operated, giving the reader the impression that the service was soley operated by either the IRT Co. or the BMT Co. depending on whose map they were looking at.
The Montague St Tunnel and the Joreleman (East River Tunnel) are in the same vicinity of each other so that one a printed map that only shows the routes of one company it would seem like they were the same tunnel.
For the best comparison - match those maps to todays map.
I have to learn to proof read before clicking on "Post Message"
(Note...a separate but related response is referenced under "Re: 1928 Clark Street Station.")
Now that you have cleared up our confusion between the IRT and the BMT maps and the names of the tunnels, that part of the problem is solved.
The one question you might still be able to answer is this: Is there an IRT subway station in the downtown Manhattan area where a person new to the subway system could get confused ...and instead of taking the IRT Lexington Avenue line to 68th street..accidentally find himself on the IRT Brooklyn-bound subway going through the East River Tunnel?
We had pictured him making this mistake at the Brooklyn Bridge station, but perhaps you have a better suggestion? All we really know is that he worked somewhere in downtown Manhattan and lived on east 72nd street.
Thank you again...
Mike
Will you please stop eliminating the "RE:" in the subject line. This practice makes the thread hard to follow. Thank YOU.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mike
In 1928, the only portions of the Fulton-Bway-Nassau complex that existed were the present 2/3 and 4/5 stations, which were not connected. The present J/M/Z station was added in 1931, and it was also separate (being parallel to the other two).
The present system of underground ramps connecting all of these stations dates from 1933, when the present A/C line was extended to Jay Street in Brooklyn. However, you had to pay a separate fare to transfer. The free transfer was established in 1948.
IRT West Farms Line between Freeman Street and Jackson Avenue
IRT Jerome Avenue Line between Woodlawn Road and 167 Street
IRT White Plains Road Line between East 241 Street and East 219 Street
IRT Flushing (ex-Corona)Line between Willets Point Boulevard and Queensboro Plaza
IRT Astoria Line between Ditmars Boulevard and Queensboro Plaza.
If your friend boarded a train say on the West Farms Line in The Bronx he might mistakenly have gotten on a subway train and not an el one.
Also the IRT and BMT El Stations at Park Row where right next to each other and someone not familiar with them could have boarded the wrong line, but since you said that your friend rode the subway under the East River it sounds like he boarded a train in either The Bronx or Queens.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Since he boarded the el to go to work at 72 St, I'm going to guess he took a train from the White Plains Rd el in the Bronx to the 72 St/Broadway subway station (was there any other service from the Bronx to the West Side in the 1920s?). The headhouse at 72 St has entrances on both sides. If you're used to coming in at 72 St and run down the stairs on the left to go uptown, it's easy to come in from 71 St, get disoriented, and run down the stairs on the left and board the wrong train, especially if you're in a hurry and not paying attention to signage.
Freeman St? How long did el service last on this line. I thought it ended after the subway opened in 1905.
IRT White Plains Road Line between East 241 Street and East 219 Street
Did the 3rd Ave el ever run north of Gun Hill?
Once the subway began operating over the IRT West Farms Line el service was cut back to Freeman Street and was provided by the 2 Avenue El only. When the 2 Avenue El north of 59 Street was closed in 1940 the Freeman Street service was assumed by the 3 Avenue El. This lasted until November 5,1946 when it was discontinued.
3 Avenue El trains only did provide service between Gun Hill Road and East 241 Street starting on October 4,1920 at first with shuttles between Fordham Road and East 219 Street (non-rush) and East 238 Street (rush), Service was extended to East 241 Street on December 13,1920 but the el shuttles did not operate to that terminal until 1924. 3 Avenue El service was cut back to Gun Hill Road permanently on/or about Decemebr 22 or 26, 1950.
Larry, Redbird R33
Wow. I can't imagine how all that traffic was handled on the original IRT el. Lexington Ave, 7th Ave 3rd AND 2nd Ave service. Who'd ride the el service with the Lexington Ave subway available anyway?
3 Avenue El trains only did provide service between Gun Hill Road and East 241 Street starting on October 4,1920 at first with shuttles between Fordham Road and East 219 Street (non-rush) and East 238 Street (rush), Service was extended to East 241 Street on December 13,1920 but the el shuttles did not operate to that terminal until 1924. 3 Avenue El service was cut back to Gun Hill Road permanently on/or about Decemebr 22 or 26, 1950.
Again, seems like excessive service.
Even the railroad lines had stations spaced very closely. The New York Central Harlem Line in The Bronx had four more stations then it does now.
The idea was to make the service as convinient as possible.
Larry, RedbirdR33
In August 1949, express service from E 241st, Bronx Park, Woodlawn and Van Cortland ran 10 car consists - each at 15 tph during rush hour. The Lex locals ran 7 car consists out of Pelham Bay Park at 30 tph. The Bway locals ran 5 car consists at 13 tph out of both 137th St and 145th St (Lenox). They ran 9 car consists at 27 tph out of Main St.They ran 2 car consists at 7 tph as Dyre Ave Shuttles and 2 car consists at 12 tph as Polo Grounds Shuttles.
The Third Ave El ran 7 car consists out of E 241st St at 10 tph; 6 car consists out of Bronx Park at 25 tph and 5 car consists out of 129th St at 7 tph.
You did say downtown to 72nd St so I am assuming he started in upper Manhattan or the Bronx.
Could you be more specific? That way one of us can provide you with a more detailed answer.
The Elevated Stations in Manhattan did not/could not share their platforms at any point with the subway lines.
In the 20's the El cars and Subway cars were basically the same equipment (with some minor exceptions).
They may have looked alike, but they were radically different. El cars were made of wood, even the former composite cars then in el service. El cars had windows which opened from the bottom, unlike subway cars which opened from the top.
Wow! We are new at this bulletin board stuff. A lot of you out there know a lot about what we are trying to solve! We want to talk with you in more detail about the ideas we are getting from you and the others.
But first I need to find out if I am doing the right thing to reach you, so I'll keep this one short...and I'll get right back to you after I see how this comes up on the bulletin board.
Also, is there any way I can reach all of the others (there must be eight of them?) that have added to the puzzle and keep them all updated?
Thanks so much for your help. We'll be right back.
Mike and Carolyn
From what you tell us, there are some errors in our remembered version of this story.
What we do know is that Dad's friend went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home from work to 72nd street.
We know he worked in downtown Manhattan.
On the day he was running late, we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and accidentally got onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale differences to a subway rider that he would experience when going through a tunnel under the East River for the first time? Maybe it is not darker? Maybe it has some other sensation--like sound? We may need to adapt this detail in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.)
We know he eventually got back to Manhattan over Brooklyn Bridge.
...and we always thought that final trip was by trolley. Is that possible?
And while we are in the company of so many who know about subways, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did his nickle go?
We want to thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to go to New York!
Mike and Carolyn
1) The 2 Avenue EL at 72 Street and 2 Avenue on the East Side.
2) The 9 Avenue El at 72 Street and Columbus (9 Av) on the West Side.
3) Tne Broadway-7 Avenue Subway Line at 72 Street and Broadway also on the west side and only a block away from the one on Columbus Avenue.
The Broadway-7 Avenue Line going northbound splits at 96 Street and one branch continues up Broadway to 242 Street in The Bronx. Although this is a subway line it runs on an elevated structure between 116 Street and 137 Street to stop at the elevated 125 Street Station. It again runs on an elevated structure from Dyckman Street north. If your father had ever ridden this train north he might have mistaken it for one of the Els.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Dad and his friend lived on the east side of Central Park, so your theory that they must have used the 2nd avenue el at 72nd street sounds like a good one.
The 1939 IRT map we found on the this site does not show both subways and els at the same stations in the 72nd street area--as you have said, the only way that could have happened appears to be north of there, in the Bronx. A tantalizing idea, but...did you find our latest update of details? It is on today's list...Thursday. I'm afraid I've not figured out how to link all of these messages together. I'll paste it below for you, just in case:
......................................
Posted by mike durak on Thu May 8 10:16:13 2003, in response to Re: 1920's Sub and El stations in Manhattan, posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on Thu May 8 10:03:19 2003.
To all of you who have helped us with our research through your comments:
From what you tell us, there are some errors in our remembered version of this story.
What we do know is that Dad's friend went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home from work to 72nd street.
We know he worked in downtown Manhattan.
On the day he was running late, we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and accidentally got onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale differences to a subway rider that he would experience when going through a tunnel under the East River for the first time? Maybe it is not darker? Maybe it has some other sensation--like sound? We may need to adapt this detail in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.)
We know he eventually got back to Manhattan over Brooklyn Bridge.
...and we always thought that final trip was by trolley. Is that possible?
And while we are in the company of so many who know about subways, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did his nickle go?
We want to thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to go to New York!
Mike and Carolyn
CG
How about, you've never seen a longer train because it wouldn't fit, but they'd like to run longer trains?
I was there a month ago and it looked like platform extension to me, but I don't have any hard details. Greenwich is served by some New Haven expresses, and maybe they'd like some additional trains to serve the station, but they're too long, and making people move up takes too much time.
The section I'm speaking about is new within the last week or so and extends further south/west than the permanent extension. The supports are wooden and went in about 2-3 days ago. It looks like they are laying a wooden platform on top of those supports today.
CG
You'll never get any stories that short from anyone in here.
Their website is www.straphangers.org
Anyone know what happened?
He sent me 6 more than I would have a need for.
If anyone would like one send me an email and I will let you know where to send a SASE.
The ideas in the study are, broadly speaking, those in Gov. Pataki's address a couple of weeks ago, but at 86 pages it goes into more detail. Most of the ideas have been well rehearsed elsewhere, but they come together in one place for the first time. Careful readers will find a few novelties.
The proposed JFK connection gets plenty of discussion, with two options presented: the Brookfield proposal, and a new East River tunnel. The Brookfield proposal has been pared back. As now presented, it would use the existing A/C Broadway-Nassau station in Manhattan, NOT a new terminal at the WTC as Brookfield had wanted. But the basic idea still includes hijacking the Cranberry St tunnel, and sending the C through the Rutgers St tunnel. A new East River tunnel would allow JFK Airtrain rolling stock to come into Manhattan directly, creating a 1-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to the JFK terminals. The same tunnel would offer an express for LIRR riders from Jamaica station. But it would cost more than twice as much, and take about twice as long to build.. The document does say that other options will be explored.
The document also touches on the problem of bus storage, but it finesses the key issue: The best place to put a new bus terminal is at the WTC site, but many of the victims' family members don't want it there. So the document just states the problem, while saying that the location of a new bus terminal is TBD.
There's plenty more in the document, which I urge everyone to read.
A new East River tunnel would allow JFK Airtrain rolling stock to come into Manhattan directly, creating a 1-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to the JFK terminals.
Funny how my calls for the A train itself, rather than a separate line, to be extended to JFK were shot down as pointless.
I don't know the details of what you proposed, but it would have numerous operational difficulties. In its present state, the A is operating close to capacity. The 207th St interlocking and the A/C merge on either side of the East River are its main choke points. That's why the Brookfield proposal takes the C out of the Cranberry St tunnel. Your proposal would just maginify this problem all the way up and down the line. The A can't be the new "train to the plane" without canibalizing existing service. The connection at Howard Beach is the best it can ever do.
I would add that the new proposal envisions running the JFK connection on dedicated trains that are more suitable for airport passengers (i.e., with space for luggage, and so forth).
Peak subway ridership overall doesn't coincide with peak travel times to and from airports. Airport travelers generally won't be in conflict with commuters.
The A is not operating terribly close to capacity. Flipping through the Weekday Cordon Count 1996, it looks like the 1/9, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, B, E, F, L, N, and R are more crowded, or at least they were in 1996. So there's room (by subway standards) for a few rush hour airport passengers on the A trains that already run.
Some trains through the Cranberry tunnel -- namely, C trains -- terminate at Euclid. If, between the four terminals (Lefferts, JFK, Far Rock, Rock Park), there isn't enough service into Manhattan (as opposed to shuttle service), then some or all C trains can be extended to meet the demand. Keep in mind that much of the present ridership from Howard Beach will shift to JFK.
Luggage facilities are nice, but they aren't of much use except to those passengers whose destinations are in walking distance of the AirTrain terminal. Everyone else will have to transfer to the subway, anyway. And it's certainly possible to design a compromise rapid transit vehicle that's suitable for both commuters and air travelers -- consider the rolling stock used on the Piccadilly line.
But my main point is in noting that my push for through service was brushed aside as unnecessary and even pointless. Apparently the consultants disagree with my critics.
This is obviously wrong. Rush hour A train service runs at tighter headways than every B division train you named (although only in one direction.)
Rush hour A trains are VERY crowded heading into Brooklyn. In fact, The cranberry tunnel is surpassed only by the manhattan bridge in terms of Lower east river crossings.
Keep in mind that much of the present ridership from Howard Beach will shift to JFK.
Headways are the problem. Hard to split 2 trains 4 ways.
Rush hour A trains are VERY crowded heading into Brooklyn. In fact, The cranberry tunnel is surpassed only by the manhattan bridge in terms of Lower east river crossings.
Well, I was wrong about the N.
Here are the crowding statistics for 5-6pm on each B Division line, expressed in passengers per 60-foot car equivalent, based on the Weekday Cordon Count 1996 (if anyone has more recent statistics, I'd be interested in seeing them):
(* = maximal PM crowding is during a different time slot)
F (N): 161.1
L (S): 159.1
E (N): 139.1
B (S): 116.7
Q (S): 107.2
A (S): 101.1
R (N): 95.6*
A (N): 95.5
D (S): 95.5
D (N): 90.3
N (N): 88.1*
N (S): 83.6
J (N): 56.3
C (N): 55.6
M (N): 53.6
F (S): 53.1
R (S): 52.8
B (N): 49.2
C (S): 47.9
M (S): 38.9
Q (N): 17.3
Not directly relevant here, but because I know someone will ask, here are the A Division statistics, in passengers per 51-foot car:
6 (N): 139.2
4 (N): 126.5
5 (N): 116.9
2 (N): 96.2
1 (N): 89.8*
3 (N): 83.8
7 (N): 73.8
2 (S): 67.8
3 (S): 67.7
5 (S): 62.3
4 (S): 59.0
Anyway, back to the issue at hand:
Based on these figures, in the afternoon rush, the A to Brooklyn could take on an additional passenger load of 50% without adding a single train and it would still be less crowded than the F to Queens. I'm not suggesting that it would be comfortable, only that it would be physically possible. So A trains could easily swallow the load a JFK connection would dump on it.
Now that we've established that it isn't actually necessary, could additional trains be added? I don't know offhand, but I do know that, if Cranberry crowding became unbearable, C capacity could be increased by 25% simply by running full-length trains on the line. I don't anticipate the issue arising, since the C in Brooklyn seems to be quite empty, but should it get crowded (due to overflow from the A) a simple solution is available.
Headways are the problem. Hard to split 2 trains 4 ways.
Ignoring route designations (A vs. C) for the time being, let's say we push 30 tph through Cranberry. If we're worried about headways at the outer ends, we want to send all 30 tph through, with nothing terminating at Euclid. Splitting service equally gives us 7.5 tph on each branch, or 8-minute headways -- hardly intolerable, even for rush hour. But the airport and Rock Park branches would probably suffice with 6 tph each (and I think I'm being generous), leaving us with 9 tph to each of Lefferts and Far Rock -- we've cut headways there by another minute and change. Or reduce airport and Rock Park service to 5 tph each and we get 6-minute headways at Lefferts and Far Rock -- fantastic!
This is only a problem if the C terminates at Euclid. The only reason to short-turn a service is because there would otherwise be too much service further out. If we're worried about headways, then apparently there isn't too much service further out.
I'd like to see more recent statistics. I don't know if anything more recent has been published or if I'd be able to gain access to it without putting up a fight.
I'd also like to see weekend statistics.
But what you've got is better than nothing. Maybe you can have Hevesi and Thompson look into it.
L trains can definitely be extremely crowded in rush hour and quite full at other times. I've on occasion barely been able to get on an L at 3rd Ave. I've never been able to get a seat at 3rd Ave.
But I've never seen sardine-ing on the L, even at rush. Maybe a delay will really fill one up, but the next one will be spacious. Perhaps they were only running 6 tph in 1996 for construction or something.
In the AM rush, I've see cars toward the rear that were so full I could barely get in at 3rd Ave. I now stand near the front so that I can get into a car that others are exiting.
Whatever the reason, on the date of this passenger count, there were only 8 Canarsie-bound L trains crossing the East River between 5 and 6pm. The current schedule calls for 15. That would account for the reduced crowding.
Ahh, I remember that. I do believe it was around the mid-90's. It used to be a very long wait at Bedford for the train in front to finish crossing the E River, before they would let us in. I think once or twice the lower part of the signal (double white/red lights) was actually showing a double red aspect. Trains ran more slowly then than they do now, too. The current T/O's on the L line are also very aggressive when it comes to the timers; they don't even wait for the signal to clear, just for the stop-arm to go down.
I can just see the ads: "For only $2, you and your luggage can squeeze onto an A train, and stand for 45 minutes for the connection to the JFK Airtrain at Howard Beach." Perhaps they'll call it the "Train to the Train."
It would frankly be more coherent to argue that convenient airport access is simply unnecessary, than to argue that the A train is the way to provide it.
It's not like the Cranberry tunnel is operating at capacity, in any case. C trains aren't even full-length!
And, again, most airport passengers won't be going to the airport in the afternoon rush. The issue only arises one hour of the day, five days a week.
And I agree with you that the transfer at Howard Beach is the killer. It's RonInBayside and others who disagree. I've been arguing all along for direct service on the A.
Secomdly, I simply love it when you guys look at #'s and say that a train line can handle more riders from that single observation. Mr. Greenberger, do you ride "A" trains from Brooklyn in the AM? At high street, Just about EVERY A train is packed, unless it comes DIRECTLY behind another one, and misses a connection with an "F" train. Heck, I've seen instances where 3 "A" trains came in sequence, and the first 2 were Packed at crush loads. The 3rd one was natably emptier though, with all seats taken, but not too many standees.
During the PM rush, A trains don't get as crowded (since the crowds seem to spread out in the PM rush hour) but you still couldn't add 50% ridership increase in anyway at all.
Ignoring route designations (A vs. C) for the time being, let's say we push 30 tph through Cranberry. If we're worried about headways at the outer ends, we want to send all 30 tph through, with nothing terminating at Euclid.
You're running 30tph with splits/merges at Canal, Hoyt, Euclid and Rockaway Blvd? Sounds like bad operating practice to me.....
If the C turned at Canal and A/E Exp went through, you wouldn't have a merge there. Although you would have one at 50th St SB, Es can simply file in the spaces between Ds.
A merge @ Euclid is no problem. Happens all the time, when the TW/O @ Hoyt (or wherever controls Hoyt/Schermerhorn) sends the Far Rock A local and the Lefferts A express, and they arrive simotaneously @ Euclid. The barrage of switches @ Euclid, not present at Hoyt or Canal, allow for more flexibility. Even if a train takes the wrong lineup on a split it would have a second chance to correct itself.
Rockaway Boulevard can be skipped on the 3rd track by switching between 80 and 88 Sts.
Hoyt is the only problem you have left. An A/E merge @ Hoyt can't be much worse than the present E/F @ 71 Av & 5 Av, Q/Q/W @ DeKalb, N/Q/Q/R/W @ 34, M/N/R @ Montague & Pacific, 4/5 @ 149, etc,
A lot of your 'solutions' don't really work, they just move the merge/split to a new location (switch between 80th and 88th just moves the delays to this location.) You're talking about no C merge and replacing it with the "E" train, and that just creates a brand new merge. These merges cause delays as it is at the lower headways at which they run. 4 splits and merges is not going to work when you have 30tph running. 2 is bad enough.
In any case, even if the Cranberry tube is maxxed out (which probably isn't the case), even if each and every A and C train is fully packed (which definitely isn't the case, but I'll play along), there is still capacity to spare. How so? C trains are short. (Yes, I know that on this line the express is more popular than the local. That's irrelevant when it comes to raw capacity. Having to ride a local when one prefers an express is far better than not being able to fit on a train at all.)
You imply that much of the crowding is due to transfers from the F at Jay. If there were truly no room for those passengers on the A/C, some of them could stay on the F to W4 and transfer there. That's in addition to the 50%, or whatever the relevant figure is today.
The Queens Boulevard express tracks carry 30 tph, with splits/merges at Continental and at 36th, with splits/merges on the E at Queens Plaza, 50th, and Canal, with splits/merges on the F at 47-50, at 2nd, at Bergen, at 4th, and at Kings Highway. Somehow they manage.
No, that doesn't work. They take the A to get to B'way-Nassau or Chambers. By W4th street, northbound 8av trains are nearly empty. No point in backtracking to make the ride for out-of-towners more convenient.
In any case, even if the Cranberry tube is maxxed out (which probably isn't the case), even if each and every A and C train is fully packed (which definitely isn't the case, but I'll play along), there is still capacity to spare. How so? C trains are short. (Yes, I know that on this line the express is more popular than the local. That's irrelevant when it comes to raw capacity. Having to ride a local when one prefers an express is far better than not being able to fit on a train at all.)
Cranberry is not maxed out, but how many riders would be able to fit on the trains? Granted, not every A train is completely crush loaded (and I've never seen every train on the C crush loaded), but How many people do you think will be packing themselves onto these trains? Are you trying to re-create lexington av like conditions?
The Queens Boulevard express tracks carry 30 tph, with splits/merges at Continental and at 36th, with splits/merges on the E at Queens Plaza, 50th, and Canal, with splits/merges on the F at 47-50, at 2nd, at Bergen, at 4th, and at Kings Highway. Somehow they manage.
There are only 2 splits/merges between the 30tph trains. And, I would think that QB is the case of why you DON'T want all of these people packing themselves onto these trains, you'd create another situation where trains end up being delayed, buch together and are insanely crowded as a matter of regular service.
Certainly you could do 27 tph without serious delays; various lines do that.
So by making C trains full length, and adding 4 trains, that's a nice 26% increase in capacity.
That should last until CBTC comes along and makes 36-40 tph feasible.
What makes you think that a new signal system will really add the ability for that many trips during rush hour?
This is TA logic here. It looks good on paper. "A signal system capable of doing so WILL do it".
You'll still have the same situation just at 36-40 tph. Trains standing still while the one ahead of it is loading and unloading.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that crowding is good. I'm saying that, if we're going to spend a lot of money to alleviate crowding, we should do it on a line that really needs it badly -- not on a line that has room to spare through its bottleneck, not on a line that runs some short trains, not on a line that can swallow 50% more passengers without even adding more trains or more cars.
Would adding airport travelers to the A train make a bad situation even worse? Yes, slightly, but the situation would still be better than the situation found on other lines.
"I'm saying that, if we're going to spend a lot of money to alleviate crowding, we should do it on a line that really needs it badly...."
This is a clear example of missing the point. Alleviating crowding on the A is not the purpose of the JFK Link. Nowhere in the study is this stated as a purpose, or even an incidental benefit.
My point from the start was that the A train should have gone to JFK. I was shouted down by the board. Now I'm told that there really should be direct service into Manhattan. I agree! And the best way to provide that direct service is the A train, since the A train makes more than one stop in Manhattan and is of use to more people. It's too bad it's taken us this long to come to this realization, since at this point converting AirTrain to subway standards is a challenge.
To reiterate: I agree that there should be a direct link. I think it should be the A train. If you agree, great. If not, why?
In your proposal, I'm a little unclear what happens to the A after it gets to Howard Beach. Does it follow the AirTrain ROW?
Also, I don't think there's enough capacity on the A. The idea that it's theoretically possible to pack A riders in like sardines, as occurs on the QB and Lex lines, isn't exactly much of an endorsement for the idea. Just because the A isn't the worst line in the system, doesn't mean we should strive make it that way.
As you know, Brookfield's consultant determined that the Cranberry tunnel couldn't support airport service unless the C were routed through the Rutgers tunnel. If that's true, then the Fulton St line in Brooklyn cannot support airport service unless other Brooklyn service is curtailed. Since the loss of C service in Lower Manhattan is the single greatest obstacle to the Brookfield proposal's adoption, I'm guessing that they looked at it VERY HARD, and they wouldn't have suggested that unless there were no other way.
And I don't think it's desirable to provide airport service by taking service away from some other part of the system. So for all of the above reasons, I don't think the JFK link can be provided on the A.
Some trains would; others wouldn't.
Also, I don't think there's enough capacity on the A. The idea that it's theoretically possible to pack A riders in like sardines, as occurs on the QB and Lex lines, isn't exactly much of an endorsement for the idea. Just because the A isn't the worst line in the system, doesn't mean we should strive make it that way.
Refer to my posts in response to J trainloco. For one hour on weekday afternoons, if no additional trains are sent through Cranberry, and no additional cars are added to C trains, and the airport service alone newly attracts half as many passengers as already ride the A, then, for that one hour on weekday afternoons, the A train will be very crowded.
But no airport service could possibly attract such a crowd. So, even with no service increase, the A train won't be much more crowded than it is now.
If appropriate, service can be increased -- if not by adding more trains (which should be possible) then by adding cars to C trains.
And the other 97% of the week it's not even an issue.
As you know, Brookfield's consultant determined that the Cranberry tunnel couldn't support airport service unless the C were routed through the Rutgers tunnel. If that's true, then the Fulton St line in Brooklyn cannot support airport service unless other Brooklyn service is curtailed. Since the loss of C service in Lower Manhattan is the single greatest obstacle to the Brookfield proposal's adoption, I'm guessing that they looked at it VERY HARD, and they wouldn't have suggested that unless there were no other way.
Last I checked, Brookfield was interested in LIRR service between Jamaica and downtown, not in AirTrain service. The A and C would have to continue to run at their present headways to support their own traffic, and the LIRR would also have to run reasonably frequent service of its own, and that would overload the Cranberry tube. My proposal would send some existing A trains to JFK, so the only risk of starvation would be on the outer branches -- but, if that really is a problem (and I don't think it is), it could be alleviated by extending the C past Euclid.
And I don't think it's desirable to provide airport service by taking service away from some other part of the system. So for all of the above reasons, I don't think the JFK link can be provided on the A.
The only stations that might possibly be losing some service according to my proposal are the Rockaway branch stations, which all have very light usage by subway standards. In exchange, people in Inwood, Washington Heights, Harlem, West Midtown, Lower Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, and the Fulton Street corridor will gain direct service to JFK, and practically the entire rest of the subway-accessible city (except for the East Side near local stations) will gain single-transfer service. IMO, that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
Let's not kid ourselves. 8th avenue gets little rush hour ridership above W4th St.
Having said that, it is certainly possible to have had the "A" train go to JFK, if you wanted to increase crowding and delays on that line. The thinking that it could be done without adding a single train is prepostrous; you'd be adding another branch and you'd need the trainsets for either the A or the C to be extended to this point. But the real point is why should this be done at all? You'd be creating undesirable conditions on the line. According to Mr. Fairthorne's numbers, the Cranberry tube handles something like 126,000 inbound passengers a day. You're saying that the line could handle 190,000 inbound passengers, or roughly equal to that of the QB express. Why would you willingly create a new situation like that?
On the other hand, you have an LIRR ROW that will soon have extra capacity, and could be turned over to the subways for additional benefit. Why not utilize this instead?
The airport won't generate 64,000 passengers per day, and most of the passengers it does generate won't be traveling during rush hour anyway. So you won't have to worry about Queens Boulevard loads. (I'll bet there are more Culver - 8th Avenue passengers than there are Manhattan-bound airport passengers in the morning rush.)
I don't see how your LIRR proposal helps. It still won't be a direct ride into Manhattan -- a transfer at Jamaica is no better than a transfer at Howard Beach. It'll require extensive digging in downtown Brooklyn and it'll require a new East River tube. And in the end, if I understand your proposal correctly, it'll run up 2nd Avenue, which won't have any convenient transfer points to any other lines, so anyone not going anywhere else in Manhattan won't be able to use the line at all.
If you want to dig up downtown Brooklyn and build a new East River tube, why not connect the Manhattan and Brooklyn local tracks so the A and C don't have to share trackage at all? Then you'd have room for at least 45 tph total on the Fulton line.
The proposal is like the present actual proposal; only some trains would run to Jamaica. The rest would run Via Airtrain trackage to the Airport. Granted my proposal requires some rebuilding of Airtrain trackage, but if you're gonna spend.
And in the end, if I understand your proposal correctly, it'll run up 2nd Avenue, which won't have any convenient transfer points to any other lines, so anyone not going anywhere else in Manhattan won't be able to use the line at all.
No. At flatbush, there will be transfers to the BMT Broadway, BMT Nassau, 7th av IRT, 6th av IND exp & Lexington Av. IRT. I'd throw in another stop at Jay st. to connect with the A/C/F too (after flatbush, you could continue down Atlantic to Adams St or Run under present IND on Jay st). Finally, you'd have the direct connection to the 2nd av subway itself. 2 Train lines would be operated. The "T" (as per the TA website) would operate from 125th, through to Jamaica and then extended into queens. A second line (Labeled with the JFK exp sign) would run from midtown on 2nd av through to the Airtrain trackage. I got this idea from oakapple's posting of the Transportation to the airport plans, where one of the plans spoke of a new east river tunnel to connect to lower manhattan. I say why not build this tunnel and give a one-seat ride to midtown as well?
As for conecting the Fulton Local tracks to 2nd av as well; go for it. Though, where would the 8th av/CPW local run? Can't run it to WTC; the E already takes up all the capacity. Maybe down to W4th and then across the 6th av local to the BMT eastern division? Hmmm, this is most interesting. Of course, if the Far west side is developed, 8th av may become a very desirable destination.
I still don't see the advantage. Why zigzag up to Jamaica and back down when the A runs more or less in a straight line?
And your point is taken regarding the transfer at Atlantic-Pacific, but that's still not a substitute for the many distinct transfer points on the A. (This sure feels strange -- I usually argue that IND lines have poor connections, but the A is an exception. It connects directly to every line except the 6 and the Franklin shuttle!) A double transfer or long walk (depending on 2nd Avenue transfer opportunities) would still be necessary to get to the G, L (or would the LIRR's ENY station be a transfer point?), M, 1/9, 6, and 7.
IND locals currently have six potential routings south of W4: Fulton local, Culver local, Culver express, Williamsburg Bridge, WTC terminal, 2nd Avenue terminal. Two of the six aren't realized, since there are only four services to begin with. Eliminating one of them would only force the (re)activation of either the Williamsburg Bridge trackage or the Culver express.
There would be a transfer to the M during rush hours. Also, isn't 2nd av supposed to be connected to the 14th av "L" line? Finally, the point it to connect to the CBD, and the transfers to other lines cover every #7 CBD stop. The A doesn't provide any transfer to the 6 either, and the connections to the 1/9 are bad enough that it makes more sense to get the #2 or #3 and then the 1/9, which is exactly what the 2nd av proposal would do.
Why zigzag up to Jamaica and back down when the A runs more or less in a straight line?
I don't know, but that's what just about every proposal suggests. Could be because the Atlantic Av line has less stops, and has faster travel. Numbers posted by oakapple said that the "A" would take 61 minutes, while the new line would take only 25 or 34 (depending if they use the Cranberry tunnel or a brand new one). Interestingly, the A is 3 minutes faster than the LIRR.
IND locals currently have six potential routings south of W4: Fulton local, Culver local, Culver express, Williamsburg Bridge, WTC terminal, 2nd Avenue terminal. Two of the six aren't realized, since there are only four services to begin with. Eliminating one of them would only force the (re)activation of either the Williamsburg Bridge trackage or the Culver express
Here's the problem that I'm seeing: 6th avenue local trackage capacity. Presently, there's 20-22tph on those tracks. Can you throw in the 8th av/CPW local and not experience delays? Maybe. And we want to avoid merging it with the 8th av exp, correct? So then what can you do? unless you want 28tph on the 6th av local tracks from W4th to just north of 2nd av.
I don't know, but that's what just about every proposal suggests. Could be because the Atlantic Av line has less stops, and has faster travel. Numbers posted by oakapple said that the "A" would take 61 minutes, while the new line would take only 25 or 34 (depending if they use the Cranberry tunnel or a brand new one). Interestingly, the A is 3 minutes faster than the LIRR.
Why not do both; connect the Howard Beach end of AirTrain to the Rockaway Line's center tracks, and extend these two tracks northward onto the LIRR Rockaway ROW, then duck down into the Atlantic line? There's a huge L-shaped block over there that would allow a 90* turn to be built without killing the speed, and then from there run the Atlantic line from Flatbush through to 2nd Ave. Better yet, have loop service, some trains go to Jamaica, branch off and go to AT, to the airport, loop around and come back out on the Rockaway side, and some trains do the reverse. If FRA regulations, heavy traffic @ Jamaica, or 3rd-rail incompatibility pose a problem, a bypass can be made (a junction would be needed somewhere anyway) directly from the Atlantic line portal to the Airtrain trackage, avoiding the LIRR tracks altogether. Jamaica would still have the train to Flatbush AND JFK would have the 1-seat ride to Manhattan without crippling (or being crippled by) the A/C.
I don't know where that 61-minute reading comes from. From Howard Beach to Canal, the A train, once it shows up, takes under 40 minutes. And although this probably wouldn't be a realistic rush hour option, off-peak airport A trains could bypass most of the Queens stops to save another minute or two.
I had forgot about CC. If you're coming from Brooklyn, and you need Christopher St., you're not going all the way up to 59th.
I don't know where that 61-minute reading comes from. From Howard Beach to Canal, the A train, once it shows up, takes under 40 minutes.
Think it includes the airtrain portion as well.
I can't imagine the AirTrain will take 21 minutes to get from the airport to Howard Beach.
The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation web site says:
"Transportation Priorities for Lower Manhattan:
Long Island and JFK Airport Access Study:
Regional and airport access is crucial to Lower Manhattan's continued viability as the financial capital of the world and as the country's third largest central business district. The infrastructural investments that provide JFK airport access can at the same time serve the fast-growing counties of Long Island, and enhance the quality of travel experience for commuters."
So there are two goals: superior service between Lower Manhattan and (a) JFK airport and (b) suburban Long Island.
By zigzagging to Jamaica, they can use the LIRR Atlantic branch to attain both goals, at a premium fare I hope. They might also want to segregate the premium service from common or garden variety subway trains.
I wonder how many JFK riders want to go directly to Lower Manhattan and how many want to go to other places such as hotels or even home!
And, besides, whose money is paying for this? Subway riders already cover a disproportionate share of LIRR expenses; we don't have to make a bad situation even worse.
If the proposal called for direct LIRR access to lower Manhattan, that would be a real advantage -- though I'd still ask about the funding source.
As for the airport, I agree that lower Manhattan is one destination of many. That's why I prefer direct A service, which takes many people directly home and takes many others directly to their transfer points. I haven't seen any other link proposed that takes as many people directly home or directly to their transfer points.
The L train figures are surprising in view of the publicity the Southern Division gets. I noted this anomoly several months ago. They are currently running 15 tph into a stub terminal with bumpers. They did operate 24 tph into 8th Ave in the old days. The stations were built to handle 8-car A/B standards - 536 feet long. They could operate 9-car 60' cars. Seems that whoever wrote the specs for the R-143's and CBTC wasn't looking at current demand. They've just bought two expensive systems that were inadequate to meet current demand.
I didn't know the Canarsie line had that kind of capacity. I can't believe they would do something so stupid as that-order a whole new fleet of trains that doesn't take advantage of available capacity when the whole point of the system being tested is to improve capacity.
It says here that
The R-142/R-142A cars contain much of the new technology tested in the R-110A Test Program. The cars are configured as "A" (cab) cars, with two motor trucks, and "B" (no cab) cars, each with one motor truck; each truck has two traction motors. They are designed to be linked in 5-car semi-permanent sets in the order A-B-B-B-A but can be linked in 4, 6, 9, or 11 car sets.
Can the R-143 also be rearranged (into 3/6/9-car sets as neccessary) this way? If yes then maybe they should consider doing so.
It gives Manhattan hub-bound data by all travel modes for a 24 hour weekday in the fall of 2000.
It shows the numbers of people, and vehicles of all kinds, entering and leaving Lower Manhattan (60th Street and below), via each street, railroad line, bridge, tunnel and ferry. In the case of subways it gives numbers of trains, subway cars and riders.
As a rule of thumb, I reckon that about 20 percent of the day's subway traffic enters the hub between 8AM and 9AM.
The total subway riders per weekday, in both directions, via the Brooklyn bridges and tunnels were as follows:
BMT Manhattan Bridge: 270,321 riders in 692 trains
IND Cranberry Tunnel: 236,592 riders in 506 trains
IRT Joralemon Tunnel: 175,815 riders in 521 trains
BMT 14 Street Tunnel: 163,549 riders in 374 trains
IRT Clark Tunnel: 129,787 riders in 525 trains
BMT Montague Tunnel: 127,688 riders in 560 trains
IND Rutgers Tunnel: 125,533 riders in 383 trains
BMT Williamsburg Bridge: 87,021 riders in 422 trains
It should be remembered that in 2000, only Sixth Avenue (IND) service was operating on the Manhattan Bridge. The "flip" to Broadway (BMT) service didn't happen until July 2001.
David
Thanks for the link.
I think you need to read the study. Nothing in it suggests that they're contemplating anything along the lines you've proposed.
Rather, one of the options (the Brookfield Proposal) suggests hijacking just a brief section of the A, between Bdwy-Nassau and a connection to the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue branch just beyond Hoyt-Schermerhorn. To do this, however, the C would no longer come into Lower Manhattan.
The connection would feed directly into High Street, right? Otherwise it makes no sense to have all 3 run between Jay and Hoyt yet send the C through Rutgers (If the bottleneck could be handled on the line, why not in the tunnel?).
I am against this plan. I favor building a new East River tunnel, linking it to 2nd av, and then making the Atlantic Av. LIRR branch a super express to Jamaica. The 2nd av train could then be extended out into queens (possibly reducing QB crowding), while the JFK direct train would then head along AirTrain trackage to the Terminals.
Wouldn't that kind of hybridization cause some kind of FRA conflict? I'm not saying yours is a bad idea, actually I like it, but is it possible to mix LIRR with the subway? -Unless you either sever the Atlantic branch from the LIRR, or make the SAS an LIRR line...
Does Atlantic branch refer to the line to Brooklyn? If so,
a) Nobody's saying that except for you and on Subtalk
b) ESA and LIRR service to downtown Brooklyn are both necessary because they serve different markets. Some people continue on to Manhattan from Brooklyn, but downtown Brooklyn is a big destination all by itself.
c)The transfer to the IRT bound for Manhattan may be used a bit less by passengers whose destination is midtown. If there are such passengers on that LIRR line, they will be using ESA.
But the idea that LIRR service to Brooklyn is superfluous after ESA opens in ludicrous.
Ok, so what's happening is that from Jamaica to Downtown Brooklyn, BYCT is running express trains (no stops) on that branch. Anyone who needs downtown brooklyn can transfer there. Anyone going to Lower Manhattan can transfer there. Explain to me why LIRR needs to continue operating trains on that branch when it could be better served by putting subway on it and then getting additional riders from Northeastern Queens?
But the idea that LIRR service to Brooklyn is superfluous after ESA opens in ludicrous.
Are more LIRR passengers headed to Downtown Brooklyn because they work there or because they want to access Lower Manhattan. Granted, Downtown Brookyln is growing (i live a stone's throw away) but, The people headed there would just have to transfer once (and many people getting into Lower manhattan do that anyway.) I don't see why you couldn't discontinue LIRR service on that branch.
The alleged FRA conflict is overblown. Congress formed the FRA and could alter it.
I agree with RonInBayside that the Atlantic Avenue branch is unlikely to be converted entirely to subway. Atlantic Terminal is in the late stages of a substantial renovation, which wouldn't have been done if the intention was to abandon it after ESA is completed.
SAS isn't going to be an LIRR line. It's a subway.
I still say that the best thing to do would be running the 2nd av train and a new 'JFK express' (with Cars that can operate on Airtrain Trackage, and maybe even have luggage racks. Heck, you could even charge an extra fare onboard the train like the old JFK express) on the LIRR atlantic branch, eliminating all stops from Downtown Brooklyn to Jamaica. The extend the T into Northeastern Queens and have the JFK express go to the Airport. Seems quite simple to me.
And Brooklyn's reserve capacity would disappear in the event of a bridge outage. And it would no longer be possible to run the F express by running the V through. And several merges and diverges would have to be added. And A service would have to be cut to give people from Long Island more frequent trains and shorter waits. Bet on it.
To clarify, when I suggested that the A train itself should go to JFK, I was told that there was nothing wrong with a transfer at Howard Beach, and an ADA-compliant elevator transfer would be just as convenient as direct service, even for passengers with luggage. If that's the case, these new proposals for direct lower Manhattan service appear superfluous. Let everyone take the A train and transfer.
Time for bed. Good night. Check out my R-36ML photos and story. And if you come down to the Ritz-Carlton on Battery Place in the morning, I'll be there.
---Choo Choo
Who told you that? Yes, there are certainly arguments for this proposition, but there are also arguments against it. The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride; (2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.; (3) The A route takes too long.
Whether it's worth billions of dollars to fix those problems is a legitimate question, but an elevator transfer at Howard Beach is certainly not as convenient as direct service. The study has a full-page table comparing airport access (both travel time and convenience) in New York to a large number of international cities. New York is well behind its competitors. There is also some evidence, albeit anecdotal, concerning the economic benefits of improving airport access.
It was the opinion of a number of posters here. I don't remember everyone on the list, but RonInBayside stands out in my memory.
Yes, there are certainly arguments for this proposition, but there are also arguments against it. The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride;
At best. For anyone bound for points not served directly by the A train, the E train, the J/Z train, or the LIRR, it's a 3-seat (or worse) ride.
(2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.;
Not an issue, IMO. Any special airport express service won't take most passengers directly to their destinations, no matter what. Most passengers will have to transfer, and the trains they transfer to won't have luggage facilities.
If the train were a direct ride for most or even a sizeable minority of its riders, then luggage facilities would be useful. That's why I've suggested that, if the A train is extended to JFK, special rolling stock to be used on that branch of the line could be ordered with low-key luggage racks that don't substantially reduce passenger capacity. The A train, with its many stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, would take many passengers directly to their destinations.
(3) The A route takes too long.
JFK is far away from Manhattan. What do you expect? The A train takes less than 40 minutes to get from Howard Beach to Canal Street -- given the distance, I don't think that's bad at all.
A few minutes could be shaved off that time by bypassing stations, but the more stations are bypassed, the more people lose their direct ride. Broadway Junction, Hoyt, and Jay are essential transfer points. And, unlike a dedicated line to lower Manhattan, the A train continues up the length of the borough (well, almost), stopping at many other useful destinations and transfer points.
I agree that the status quo (AirTrain to Howard Beach; transfer to the A train) is insufficient. I disagree with the solution being pursued.
David has correctly identified me in his post.
"The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride;"
No, that's not a problem. It's a tempest in a tea kettle that means little, as the experience in Atlanta proves. A circulator connecting to a subway works just fine. Of course, political detractors will argue anything that is convenient to them, and in New York, there's no shortage of people like that.
" (2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.;"
Not an issue either, as passengers on Metrorail in Washington, MARTA in Atlanta, and NJ Transit (whose commuter rail cars are not as luggage friendly as they could be) have shown
(3) The A route takes too long.
Only from Manhattan and western Brooklyn. Which is why AirTrain also goes to Jamaica, where passengers on LIRR lines from Manhattan, the island and Brooklyn will access it.
If there is any substantial cab traffic to Howard Beach, it won't be from Manhattan -- it'll be from the airport, carrying passengers who realize that a cab is cheaper than AirTrain.
The airtrain from lower manahttan will be alot quicker and predictable then a cab ride out to JFK at 4 in the afternoon
Of course, rogue nonlicensed drivers and non-medallion cabs are always a problem, but those people get chased off or locked up periodically.
They were not shot down, because you never presented these ideas to anyone, except on Subtalk, which doesn't count for much. Get off your butt, submit those ideas to the folks who really count, and then see what happens.
And I was still in medical school in Philadelphia when they started studying it. That didn't prevent me from writing a letter to the Port Authority to find out how I could help push it along.
You're just rationalizing your laziness.
You think that's bad? Many Subtalkers' grandparents weren't yet born when the Second Avenue Subway was first proposed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You Sea Beach is gaining the bridge at the expense of the residents and workers at 6 stations (City Hall through Lawrence St.) that are busier than the entire Sea Beach ridership combined!
Larry Littlefield presented one idea that he said was under review by Pataki: extending the 2nd Avenue subway in a new tunnel and then connecting it to the LIRR atlantic Avenue Branch. I'd like to write to someone in support of this plan. Mr. Bayside, can you tell me to whom I should write for this?
Start with:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
You can also address to Peter Kalikow, Chairman, at that same address.
Also, send a copy of your letter to Governor Pataki in Albany (State Capitol, Albany NY 12224). Further copies should be sent to your local assembly person and state senator.
They say that the reason the S Ferry loop reduces capacity is because the trains stop at Rector St for an extended period of time to make sure everyone moves to the front 5 cars.
I've never noticed, but I don't use that part of the 1/9 very often. Has anyone else noticed?
Also, I think I understand how the 6 Brooklyn Bridge loop reduces capacity there: the occasional desperate need for a bathroom stop.
It's a long run from Pelham Bay to BB and back without a break, and probably the occasional T/O or C/R needs to make a quick run for it at BB.
Example: Tuesday at BB I saw a 6 sitting at the downtown platform with its doors closed for a long time. Finally it started to pull out into the loop, and just then the bell rang and green light flashed on the northbound side indicating it was supposed to be on its way. Since it took a few minutes to navigate the loop, it was several minutes late departing BB, and there were several SB trains backed up behind it. I can't think of any explanation for this serious lack of adherence to schedule other than a bathroom break that just couldn't wait.
Then there would have to be facilities at the yards for cleaning and servicing the donickers.
That one month or so between transverse introduction and C/R punching was the only time I remember delays at Rector other than those caused by backups at SF itself - train can't leave the station due to Ferry arrival, next train stuck between stations, third train stuck at Rector by signals.
Most of the day, there's a wait of a few minutes at Chambers NB before the starting lights turn on. If that's causing delays, the starting lights could be turned on earlier.
--Mark
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/06/nyregion/06TUNN.html
It's free...all you need is registration. I especially love the last 2 paragraphs of the article. Just hilarious, but I'll let you read it for yourself. :)
Looks like Randy Kennedy is out of ideas, like Allan said.
$3.5 Million HO Scale Layout
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
A Train - R44 #5237
A Train - R38 #4074
GO SEE IT!
It is worth it!
--Mark
I would like to apply for October exam but before I put in my $50 M.O. and the application, I always appreciate the help I can get in answering this important subject.
Thank you for all the insight you can provide, maybe a TSS of T/O on this board might have a more specific answer on this. And yes, the Q (or soon to be B train) will be my favorite pick but I will have to start on extra list first so that won't happen anytime soon.
BTW, what does New York State DMV say about issuing a driver license to someone with epilepsy, who is on medication?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/4635429?source=Evening%20Standard
"Crossrail in jeapordy"
By Dick Murray, Transport Editor, Evening Standard
1 May 2003
Crossrail faced a potentially fatal blow today as the Government revealed costs have soared to £15billion and it could take more than a decade to build.
This increases doubt on whether the controversial project for a twinbore rail tunnel through central London - from Paddington station in the west to Liverpool Street in the east, connecting existing main line services - will ever be built.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling confirmed that estimates for the latest Crossrail proposal, which includes variations and branch lines, are £10billion-£15billion. He also indicated that Crossrail would not be needed this decade.
"The system in 20 years' time will not be able to cope," he said. "We'll need additional capacity for transport in London."
However, the Department of Transport said no final decision had been taken.
In January the Evening Standard revealed that the line would not be built in the foreseeable future. If it were built, it would take up all the money needed to improve the rest of the national rail system.
The article described Crossrail as the line which everyone wants - but nobody wants to pay for. (end of report)
Crossrail would connect two main-line terminals with a tunnel capable of carrying main-line commuter trains, thereby relieving overcrowding on the Central line tube and other underground lines.
The Crossrail web site (www.crossrail.co.uk) urges an end to the speculation, saying that the Government continues to support the Crossrail project "in principle", and that there has been "no decision not to proceed".
Give him a break, Juice. That series is now 24 years old. I haven't seen it since its first run on PBS but still remember it. He may never have seen it. But if he doesn't know who Emma Peel is, then he isn't much of an Englishman.
Tom
I used to watch PBS Masterpiece Theater with Alastair Cooke, not to mention Sesame Street's "Monsterpiece Theater with Alastair Cookie". I do vaguely remember the UXB series.
In Britain I used to read Alastair Cooke's "Letter from America" in the Manchester Guardian newspaper, or listen to it on the BBC. His reports on America were always factual but fascinating. He had a very special way with words.
My cockney accent is a little rusty, but I seem to have gotten away with it. Thank you both for your interest and concerns!
Emma Peel was the character played by Dame Diana Rigg early in her career (1965-1967) in the TV series, "The Avengers."
Tom
AFAIK, this past tense is wrong. Alastair Cooke (now aged over 90) still broadcasts his weekly "Letter from America" on BBC radio. It is said to be the longest-running broadcast programme anywhere in the world, having been broadcast for over 60 years!
Apologies for that short ... extract, but there's no way I can bring Alastair on topic. Heh.
My only gripe is that a lot of the drama isn’t archived for rights reasons.
--Mark
But unlike the SAS the line would extend beyond the central area, with branches reaching far into the outer suburbs. And it would carry full sized main-line commuter trains.
It is comparable in scope and cost to the SAS and the ESA combined.
There was also going to be a Crossrail Two!
Before we get too rude about London, it should also be pointed out that, unlike a certain city that one could mention, it actually *has* built quite a lot of new rail rapid transit in the last few years (the Jubilee Line extension, the Docklands Light Railway and the Croydon Tramlink).
I hear that the Jubilee line extension is an architectural showpiece, but weak on convenient transfers to other lines. And why was it not extended from its terminal at Charing Cross, which closed when the extension was opened?
CrossRail seems a good idea, but at 15 billion pounds it would be no great bargain.
Thameslink 2000 planned to run 24 trains per hour through the existing north-south tunnel; that could be operationally difficult, given that the 24 trains came from a dozen or so far away places. Last I heard was that the inspector objected to the improved London Bridge station because it wasn't expensive enough!
I hear that the Jubilee line extension is an architectural showpiece, but weak on convenient transfers to other lines."
Only at Canary Wharf, where the station is some distance from the Docklands Light Rail station - in fact it is somewhat closer to the *next* DLR station, Heron Quays (DLR stations are very close together in that section). The other interchanges (Stratford, West Ham, Canning Town, Canada Water, Waterloo, Westminster) are o.k.
"And why was it not extended from its terminal at Charing Cross, which closed when the extension was opened?"
The temporary terminus at Charing Cross was based on the assumption tha the Jubilee Line would eventually be extended east under Fleet Street - hence its original proposed name, the Fleet Line. In the event, plans changed between the 1970s and the 1990s, and the Jubilee Line was sent south of the river. A third line from Charing Cross to Waterloo (the Bakerloo and Northern Lines both cover that already) would have been excessive, while an additional service to Westminster station, which previously only had the District/Circle lines, was a benefit.
"CrossRail seems a good idea, but at 15 billion pounds it would be no great bargain.
Thameslink 2000 planned to run 24 trains per hour through the existing north-south tunnel; that could be operationally difficult, given that the 24 trains came from a dozen or so far away places. Last I heard was that the inspector objected to the improved London Bridge station because it wasn't expensive enough!"
At present Thameslink can only run eight tph, with four tph of those not seving London Bridge station and using the less convenient route through Elephant & Castle. The bottleneck restricting Thameslink's capacity is not only London Bridge station, but the whole section between the Croydon to London Bridge main line (which carries the Thameslink in from the south) through Borough Market Junction and Metropolitan Junction to Blackfriars station. There are conflicting movements (with trains in and out of Charing Cross main line terminus) at these flat junctions, so that any late running of Thameslink trains quickly ramifies into delays all across southeast London. They need to be replaced with flying junctions if the Thameslink's capacity is to be increased, and that is very expensive. I didn't see the inspector's comments, but maybe he meant that the junction improvements proposed were not sufficient to achieve the objectives, and a more expensive scheme was needed. Some other parts of the Thameslink 2000 scheme may happen - the replacement of the inadequate Kings Cross Thameslink station with a new St Pancras Thameslink certainly will (next year), and is part of the massive reconstruction of the entire Kings Cross St Pancras complex that it currently in progress.
I read the on-line report on the Thameslink 2000 public hearing. There were doubts about the at-grade junctions south of Blackfriars, and about the ability to synchronize 24 trains per hour from so many distant places. These are serious concerns.
But on these engineering matters the inspector deferred to Railtrack. He objected instead to the architecture of the modified London Bridge station, saying that it was another incremental change and not worthy of a world-class city. He favored a more expensive design, but he didn't say where the extra 150 million pounds would come from.
The inspector's report was on-line, but I cannot find it any more.
It is true that the 24 trains per hour would have come from a wide variety of places both north and south of London, up to 50 or more miles away, and it is inconceivable that all of them would always arrive in central London dead on time. So even if the capacity of the junctions had theoretically been increased to 24 tph, trouble would occur very frequently, whenever trains arrived at those junctions out of schedule.
"First Crossrail. Doesn't this farce demonstrate that it is the political system that has failed? No developed Country would have allowed the fatally flawed railway privatisation to go ahead in the first place, considering the degree of opposition from anyone who understood the railway industry. This one policy has completely prevented any major rail development going ahead, in turn resulting in a vast increase in costs. The only genuine improvement scheme, the CTRL has been effected on time and on budget because it is virtually a combination of French expertise and American financial acumen. It's basically a TGV line built in Britain. Left to our own devices aka the WCML it's a shambles.
We have as Transport Minister a man who, with a straight face can say that Crossrail is not needed till the next decade! If that's the case why have we wasted 15 years, and many £millions on feasibility studies, planning, route development etc for something that is not needed? How is it we finish up with one man, appointed by Govt. telling the second city of the Nation that it `isn't a priority'! Why the blazes should the decision to double the track on a main line in Cornwall be at the behest of this same bloke in London? There is no strategic thinking by the people who should really be planning transport for the future, the DTP. Railways are an optional extra for Britain. Surely Crossrail is either needed or it's not. It couldn't be needed 15 years ago and not now. Similarly with Thameslink and the high-speed route to the North. Other Countries decide what will be needed and gradually work towards it. Not have a `yes we will, no we wont ` policy depending on the financial climate at the time! It's a ludicrous way to proceed, or not!"
Partial Translation:
Crossrail = an ambitions plan comparable to ESA plus SAS (funding in jeopardy, see previous posting).
Thameslink = a similar but cheaper project, using existing tunnels.
WCML = West Coast Main Line from London to Glasgow.
CTRL = Channel Tunnel Rail Link, a prestigious project with high political priority, using new tunnels to carry 18-car Eurostar trains from the Channel Tunnel to a refurbished Victorian Gothic terminal at London's St. Pancras Station. Will cut all of 30 minutes from the journey time. Highly likely to be completed on time. Approved by the European Union.
Bloke in London = The Minister of Transport.
That last sentence - "Will cut all of 30 minutes from the journey time" - seems to imply an opinion that the project is not worthwhile. It needs to be pointed out that most of the miles of the Paris-London rail journey are in France, where they are already on TGV (high-speed) lines, so not much further speeding-up can occur there. The distance from the English portal of the Channel Tunnel to London is about 80 miles. Cutting 30 minutes off the running time of an 80-mile journey sounds pretty good to me. It implies improving from 80 mph to 160mph, 70 mph to 120 mph, or 60 mph to 96 mph.
Perhaps I was wrong to belittle the benefits of the CTRL, but my suspicion was that the project is being pushed ahead for political reasons, to reaffirm Britain's place in Europe, and/or because of European Community funding.
In fact the line is nearly all new. It branches off the existing line just west of Ashford station (where some Eurostar trains stop, anyway), and it's all new construction from there to St Pancras. Ashford station is only a few (5-6?) miles from the tunnel portal. The route into London Waterloo station that has been used since the Channel Tunnel opened contained hardly any new construction beyond the stations at Ashford and Waterloo.
It can't be said that this has been built in a hurry, though. The French had their high-speed line in place when the Channel Tunnel opened or shortly thereafter, and the British side has been much criticised for using a slow route, with many other slower services sharing it, ever since that time.
You would be one of the very few who does. Aside from the fact that it doesn't go far enough, it has been very much a success. Extending the lower level further along Archer would be nice, though.
"I would have the el built to the standard of the Queens Blvd Viaduct on the 7. Less noise and very attractive."
You'll have to do better than that. Nobody is clamoring to tear down the viaduct, of course, but buiding standards have advanced pretty far since that was built.
"The Hillside Line will rise out of the subway after 179 St station and connect to the new el at 185 St and Jamaica Ave. The IND and BMT will become one at the new 187 Street station. "
Politically impossible and a waste of money. Besides, why invite NIMBY problems when you can extend the Hillside Av line underground along Hillside a couple of miles, and really do some good?
"The Archer Ave line will be converted to a shuttle operation and 121 Street station will be rebuilt to handle two island platforms and a center stub track for the terminating shuttle."
A lot of riders would be looking to string you up...a good thing this is Subtalk.
"If it was built, will you say the project was worth it? And plus, as a bonus, only R32 and R42/R40S and M can ride the new el. No R46. Even R143 is welcome to ride. No 75 footers. Is it worth it?"
In HO gauge, on your living room floor, absolutely! Start construction tomorrow - skip the EIS.
Jimmy
Ya know....that's something worth contemplating. With all our collective interests in this here Special Interest Group...be nice if we could somehow "finance" such a project. That is, a complete replication of the subway system in HO gauge. Or at least, all the elevated and trench and surface lines in Brooklyn. To scale, no less. Any local railfan Lotto winners out there?
I don't consider it a failure, but rather a disappointment for one small item. There is no track connection from the lower to upper level. I'm not alone is making that statement, others have too.
However, the Sutphin Blvd. looks like a failure. Some ceramic floor tiles are cracking and breaking up, the upper level ceiling looks filthy and most of the mercury vapor lamps are barely glowing and water leaks have been seen. Can we call Sutphin Blvd, son of Chambers St. ? Others here on SubTalk have commented on the dilapidated state of Sutphin Blvd. The handicapped elevators are OOS and boarded up. A few years ago I rode one that smelled like a urinal !
As for your ideas of ressurrecting a Jamaica "el", it's nice to dream. Maybe you ought to wake up !
That would require an extension of the existing lines, or at least one of them. Connecting the J and E east of Parsons/Archer, without such an extension, wouldn't accomplish a great deal. I doubt it would be worth the cost.
Non revenue transfers, work equipment and money train moves to name a few. Now to install a connection if the need came up would be cost prohibitive. The T.A. has money troubles these days !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hopefully, once the work at Jamaica LIRR is finished, there'll be pressure for a complete renovation of Sutphin. It certainly needs one.
Arcitecturally I really like that station. But I agree that it needs work. At least one other Subtalker has posted something about too much ground water in the area to not have to fight water leaks constantly, that it would be a fact of life there, just like moisture in a basement. I don't know what the right solution is.
Also, no point in connecting Jamaica and Hillside. Too much service, unless it went somewhere like Green Acres, Roosevelt Field, etc. All it does is take all those who would normally take certain 165 St or Archer Av buses and put them on the train instead. Not a bad idea, but having combined double headway service is not neccessary. Perhaps one or the other could turn at the "187 St" station, or the J/V (or whatever locals) could turn while the F/Z (expresses) go on. It could also just be non-revnue trackage, useful for reroutes.
In order to work it would also require realignment of bus routes such that none run along (or closely parallel) Hillside or Jamaica Aves, and those that feed into it would terminate at the nearest station.
But this still leaves the problem of LIRR passengers without a convenient transfer at Jamaica. That would not neccessarily be a severe problem, but it could certainly create some interesting scenarios. Jamaica station itself would dwindle somewhat in importance, except as a transfer point between various LIRR branches.
Its not a failure, just disappointing that it didn't go to at least Merrick Blvd if the full line to s/e Queens wasn't built; which it wasn't. As for Hillside, new els are UNDESIRABLE these days, its better to keep it a subway under Hillside to eastern Queens & its saving time over riding the Q1 & Q43.
And the maintenance of the structure is not higher than the cost of maintaining a subway tunnel.
Plus, it wouldn't be dark below the el at all.
Not without proper lighting affixed to the structure, of course. The Broadway El has quite a few lights under it. Provided the El doesn't go via a ROW, lighting would only be an issue at night (solved by streetlights) and during noon.
And the maintenance of the structure is not higher than the cost of maintaining a subway tunnel.
Ahh, there's the catch. I knew it had to be something I wasn't thinking of. BTW, which costs more to build?
The Fulton Subway is without a doubt quieter than the Broadway El. You can hear a train, but you don't hear it like the Broadway line.
Not without proper lighting affixed to the structure, of course. The Broadway El has quite a few lights under it. Provided the El doesn't go via a ROW, lighting would only be an issue at night (solved by streetlights) and during noon.
I'm talking daytime. Broadway/Myrtle is one of the darkest places I've even seen in the middle of the day. At night, it might make the street actually have MORE lighting. What exactly do you mean ROW? The El itself is a ROW, isn't it?
Besides, buildings are almost always right next to the el, and this doesn't allow sunlight onto the street below.
Ahh, there's the catch. I knew it had to be something I wasn't thinking of. BTW, which costs more to build?
Subway, by far. And, if there are problems with the tunnel, it's maintenance costs can run high (Lenox Av being the best example of this). But El's have to be regularly painted, and are exposed to the elements. Any el that's not properly maintained would require expensive rebuilding, a la Franklin Av. In the long run, a subway is a much better investment, for land value, and for maintenance cost. I don't know if the newer type of el structures have a lower maintenance cost (i.e. Airtrain)
That's an unfair comparison, as the Broadway El is steel/wood. I'm talking steel/concrete. And if you mean someplace like Utica or Jay St, where the line is three levels deep, then of course it is quiter, it is so far down. The proposed El would make no more noise (probably less) than the sound of cars on the thoroughfare on top of which it would be built. And if there is no such level of traffic in the particular corridor, chances are that area wouldn't warrant a line being built in the first place. Either the sound would be drowned out by traffic or would replace the sound of traffic with the sound of trains.
Subway, by far. And, if there are problems with the tunnel, it's maintenance costs can run high (Lenox Av being the best example of this). But El's have to be regularly painted, and are exposed to the elements. Any el that's not properly maintained would require expensive rebuilding, a la Franklin Av. In the long run, a subway is a much better investment, for land value, and for maintenance cost.
OK, I'll believe that Els cost more to maintain, but because of paint? You've got to come up with something better than that. Replacing tiles is probably equally costly to painting El structures. As for land value, unless the line is wide and the street is narrow, which would cause El trains to come right next to your window, it shouldn't be a problem. If the line were engineered right, the express stations would be higher up so as to avoid hugging the buildings (like the lighting problem you described at Myrtle Av/Bway), and most of the line would be above the height of most buildings (assuming the whole street isn't lined with 5+ story buildings).
So all I see that is in favor of subways is that they are cheaper to maintain, which would explain why so many els were built (cheap to construct) and thus torn down (expensive to keep). But I don't see specifically what it is about subways that is so much cheaper to maintain than Els. Are there any quotable figures for cost of maintaining an (average) El vs. cost of maintaining a(n average) subway?
Now that we have to pay ten consultants and contractors to remove old lead paint every time we apply new paint, painting has become very expensive indeed.
Other than than, I've not sure Els are more expensive to maintain. My guess is that subways are. The cost of fan plants, water pumps, reconstruction due to water damage etc. is considerable. Els were removed due to neighborhood effects, not cost.
All things considered, we're best off with the trains on the ground a la the Brighton, rather than over it or under it, in all but the densest locations. The trains on the embankment make little noise compared with those in the air. Maybe Boss Tweed was right.
I know. I'm just trying to get at the exact reason why residents oppose them. So far, I've got nothing but "undesirable". Undesirable is not a reason, but rather a word that sums up one's opinion. Residents are entitled to their opinion, but nobody has yet given me a reason why they have that opinion.
As for why people don't want els running in their neighborhood: it's unsightly. Who wants an elevated structure running down their street, and causing noise? It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
Who wants an elevated structure running down their street,
People who don't have cars or don't want to add to the traffic nightmare that is New York City, yet want a relatively fast commute (bus is too slow, and express buses, too, are a victim of traffic).
and causing noise?
Cars, the people next door, and airplanes flying overhead can make just as much noise in a busy corridor.
It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
What if part of the structure was concrete walls covered with murals, (like the beautiful wall @ that SEPTA station, underground, with 4 tracks, one of those 3 "Center City" zone stations - I don't remember the name, only that it isn't 30 St).
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
1. This does not mean that you should keep building more undesirable things.
2. When was the last time one of these was constructed?
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
It really isn't nice if you live on that street.
Who wants an elevated structure running down their street,
People who don't have cars or don't want to add to the traffic nightmare that is New York City, yet want a relatively fast commute (bus is too slow, and express buses, too, are a victim of traffic).
and causing noise?
Cars, the people next door, and airplanes flying overhead can make just as much noise in a busy corridor.
It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
What if part of the structure was concrete walls covered with murals, (like the beautiful wall @ that SEPTA station, underground, with 4 tracks, one of those 3 "Center City" zone stations - I don't remember the name, only that it isn't 30 St).
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
The subway would cost far more but as Jtrainloco said, maintenance on els are VERY costly and I said that people don't really find els desirable nowadays, not that I don't like the els.
BTW: My line does pop out from the underground to run as an elevated along both Jamaica and Merrick Blvd. By elivated I mean a modern concrete viaduct with minimal physical and visual disruption at street level, and virtually SILENT operation. Stations are also much further apart than on most elevateds.
Oh well, enjoy your fantasy!
Elias : )
Jimmy
I may be wrong...
And BTW, it's Flatbush41! :)
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000326
I'm still here, reading some posts and posting an occasional thread.
Bill "Newkirk"
You forgot one more person, ME (lol). Anyway, congrats on completing your college finals, hope you did excellent. And yes it's good to see your handle back in action, as all I can say: "Welcome back to Subtalk."
A total of 21 of these 4000HP diesel-hydraulic locomotives were exported to the US from Germany and were assigned as follows:
Denver & Rio Grande Western 4001-4003 1961
Southern Pacific 9000-9002 1961
Southern Pacific 9003-9017 1963
The four D&RGW units were sold to SP in 1964 and became 9021-9023.
All are now retired.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
This afternoon, I rode a (7) out to 33 St, waiting on the nb platform for 9542/3 to come by. I spotted them on a sb train and photographed them. Wanting to now ride them, I waited a while and then took a (7) to Woodside, where I was guaranteed to catch the cars no matter if they ran local or (hopefully) express.
About 10 minutes later, the R-36ML's showed up EXPRESS and I rode the anti-railfan window all the way to Flushing. Employing my new GPS receiver, I recorded a TOP SPEED of 44 MPH, just south of Junction Blvd.
At Main St Flushing, I hung around for a few minutes while they cleaned the train and prepared it for its journey south. Once we pulled out, I took a bunch of interior photos and enjoyed the ride. At Times Sq, I took a few more photos.
Overall, it was a wonderful day, and it couldn't have fallen into place any better than it did. Also, I'd like to thank all of the MTA employees and policeman who refrained from giving me even the slightest dirty look the entire time. Thank you! Below, is a photo taken at 33 St. The rest of the photos can be found here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.05.07/r-36ml_2.html
Enjoy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Also when the B-Divsion gets their new subway cars, there's going to be a lot of drama here if the R32's disappear(which I doubt). I hope the Slants aren't touched either. The oldies rock! Who needs new trains?
As for the buses(esp. where I'm at), there isn't an interesting past with them. We have.... RTS's. So what? They're all over the place. Right now, I don't see myself missing them that much, but that will change in the future.
So I say, don't bring in the R160's so soon. I'll settle with oldies on the (J) and (M) lines.
Photo taken today 5/7/2003 at around 6pm
ROFL
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
(P.S., for those of you who can't read what it says, it says "BOMBAJUNK," and it's on both ends of the car...)
As for the vandalism, the same people who commit the senseless and ILLEGAL acts are the same ones, majority from inner city minority communities, who wonder why high price businesses and organizations, and the government don't even waste a cent to bring something nice into the inner-city community. Every time someone paints a nice mural, opens up a new clean park or something nice and positive donated to the community, these same idiots do nothing but vandalize it, loiter in it and dirty the place up without any kind of shame. Why should the new cars be any different. Besides majority of vandalism stays because either some cleaners don't give a f***, and don't waste time cleaning it when it's reported, or the job is improperly done, and residual sight of the vandalism remains. That part of how some TA people work is what I call a case of the F***-its!!
Don't like it? Open a subway car factory in your basement and bid on the contracts.
-Robert King
I know someone who works at - not for - TD Bank and has been for over a year, as a temp agency substitute.
Building on that theme, companies also like to contract entire departments out to service companies, basically temping on a larger scale.
Another good one is to keep employees as part time employees as far as technicalities are concerned, which saves a lot in terms of pay and benefits but squeeze them to the max. by scheduling them to work 37 hours a week, keeping them just below the full time threshold of 40 hrs/week. Such fine American companies as Starbucks and Walmart are well known to engage in this particular practice.
This has nothing to do with Canada, specifically Bombardier.
-Robert King
I'm not particularly familiar with the laws in this area, but I do know that, from the standpoint of medical benefits at least, the threshold is somewhat lower than that, at least in New Jersey - 24 hours/week, I believe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
What a bad pun...
Being a frequent (7) rider, I appreciate the R62A's. It would be funny to see this vandal fall out of a rusted-out Redbird.
All vandals fit this bill.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A new consist arrived, I just don't know what they are. Calling WideCab5! Calling WideCab5!
-Stef
---Choo Choo
-Stef
My e-mail box was empty.
1181-1185 came in Monday. 1186-1190 at Fresh Pond yesterday. They must have gotten to East 180 tonight.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for that info. 1200s are not too far away...
-Stef
I don't mind 1 bit!!! (ka dum ching!!!)
:X
On the last three days though, they took down the tubelights and replaced them with temporary string of halogen bulbs. For the first time the light shined up to the top of the vault. It seemed to reach up to the underside of the sidewalk itself (but that seems a bit improbable).
If it does reach that high, then MTA could put reinforced glass bricks to let the light shine in. The chasm is long enough and wide enough for those Herald Square Yab-Yum style giant red mobiles. In fact the walls big enough could be used for a giant mosaic or mural.
Ironically the vaulted ceiling is immediately south of the god-awful sight of the Melting Ceiling thanks to years of leaks. Some of the sights and smells of DeKalb are a bit much. Can't wait for the rehab to finish. Those tiles need a serious cleaning too.
Painting the roof of the south-bound 4th Avenue track white really magnifies the light and brightens up the whole platform. So why did they paint the Brighton line track roof black? Makes no sense.
DeKalb has so much potential, I really hope they do a great rehabilitation.
---Choo Choo
Indeed the station does cut into the building line of Flatbush Avenue. Though I swear I could see the underside of the sidewalks.
I always wondered why the IRT skylights were covered.
-Stef
On the last three days though, they took down the tubelights and replaced them with temporary string of halogen bulbs. For the first time the light shined up to the top of the vault. It seemed to reach up to the underside of the sidewalk itself (but that seems a bit improbable).
If it does reach that high, then MTA could put reinforced glass bricks to let the light shine in. The chasm is long enough and wide enough for those Herald Square Yab-Yum style giant red mobiles. In fact the walls big enough could be used for a giant mosaic or mural.
Ironically the vaulted ceiling is immediately south of the god-awful sight of the Melting Ceiling thanks to years of leaks. Some of the sights and smells of DeKalb are a bit much. Can't wait for the rehab to finish. Those tiles need a serious cleaning too.
Painting the roof of the south-bound 4th Avenue track white really magnifies the light and brightens up the whole platform. So why did they paint the Brighton line track roof black? Makes no sense.
DeKalb has so much potential, I really hope they do a great rehabilitation.
Flushing Line Riders report back if you see anything out of the ordinary.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
---Choo Choo
(nothing, except for my photos and one number board off an R-26)
So join Branford and you too can play with the R-17.
And don't get your hopes up. It was a Mosholu Wash heading home. The T/O must have been messing with the signs.
You don't want to share? :)
*flash!*
Aww crap. Picture came out black. Apparently I set it on a different mode beforehand and the settings were reset.
I've seen ones like the 'No Windstorming' one.
1. "Do not bomb Iraq"
2. "Do not build prisons"
3. "Do not cut jobs"
I saw two stickers on an R46 V several weeks ago, and R32 #3427, this poor car had all three stickers in different places covering the "Do not lean on door" sign, including one on the interior storm door. Funny how they can get it to be the exact font as the one on the subway. (But the sticker is a faint black up close)
Does anyone know what time they got them? From other posts, it seems that people who showed up later in the day did get the notices.
Windows...we do that. Brakes, oil, propulsion, batteries. Drive in for service. CI peter
Peace,
ANDEE
He became a 'cause celeb' because former Mayor Ed Koch (among others) felt he should be given leniancy due to his 'enthusianism' to operate a subway train.
I know of at least one person on this board who has done just that. I won't mention Selkirks name. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Discuss :)
1. One trip metrocards should be sold at agent booths.
2. Credit cards should be take in the machines for one ride tickets.
Even in both Paris and London the machines take credit cards for single tickets. Why not NY?
PATCO stations are unmanned. You have to obtain change from a machine which accepts bills and dispenses dollar coins. The farecard and ticket machines accept these coins as payment.
Sounds like an unnecessary extra step. It would be easier to have the farecard and ticket machines accept bills.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah a Metrocard Vending Machine is perhaps a better solution, but it comes some 30 years after the PATCO system was started.
Checked on the way home, 1s, 5s, 10s and 20s. You have 20s, it has change for you.
Rode car 112 home, normally I love riding the Budd Single units, especially 101 and 102, but 112 sounds HORRIBLE! There seem to be several flat spots, and the whole car sounds like it's falling apart at the seams, just one big rattle, 16th and Locust to Woodcrest. It was VERY uncharacteristic of normal PATCO cars, I thought 256 and 208 were bad, but 112 takes the cake.
Perhaps tommorow on the way in or out I'll make a quick survey of stations, but I'm not sure how many I can see from inside fare control (if only PATCO had a 30day unlimited!). I should be able to easily reach Haddonfield, Lindenwold and Ashland just through a quick drive from Woodcrest.
We are all awaiting PATCO's upgrade of the fare-collection system.
Someone should inform the TA of the existance of such machines!!
Or they should simply set the current machines to dispense more of those lousy dollar coins. This would be keeping with the TA tradition of subtly sticking it to their customers.
with a $2 fare and no need to dispense quarters. It would make sense to stock the machines with more dollar coins using the former quarters storage binns and at the the very least increase the change limit to $8 to allow single ride metrocard purcahces with a $10 bill.
Removing quarters from MVM's would most likely tripple the machines cahnge dispensing ability. There is no longer a need to dispense quarters as all fares are now in even dollar increments.
As for the fun pass issue. the mta shouls change it's policy and dispense 13 dollar coins. Once A rider gets stuck with 13 heavy coins in his pocket once, he/she will think twice aboutt doing it again
I have to differ. The machines do dispense quarters. I had to bring my current PPR card up to an amount evenly divided by $2 (I had $8.50 on it). I put $2.00 in the machine, selected "other amount" so thatI could add $1.50 to make an even $10, and I got back 2 quarters in change.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Noone is stoping you from depostiing two quarters
Where?
They are called ATM for Automatic Teller Machines.
They have been around since the late 1970s and are capable of counting out paper money with incredible accuracy.
Beautiful! Anything to encourage use of the $1 coin and discourage the use of the $1 bill (a better way would be for the Treasury to discountinue the $1 bill and print more $2 bills).
In the case of NYCT. It may make sense to relax the change standard a bit to allow $8 change on single ride purchaces and $13 cange on fun pass purchaces and look into installing larger change dispensers.
Riders over time will not want 13 dollar coins in their pockets and thus refain fron using larger bills
The mroe larger bills entered will increase the capasity for the machines to accept bills. I see more machines run out of space to store bill then run out of change.
Plus the fun pass will be less ad less popular at the current price. Tourist usually travel in pairs ths buy multiple fun passes at a time.
You need to make MVM's more flexible especially at boothless entrances to appease the critics. Riders will adjust. No one wants 13 gold coins in thier pocket. They will refreain from using 20's to purchace metrocards.
Why doesne the MTa explore issuing franchises to ATM operators to operate ATM's inside subway station separate from the MVM's. It will provide a nice source of non-transit revenue for the MTA. The MTA could stiplulate that the machines dispense $10 bills instead of $20 solving many of the problems.
Such a contract would be so lucrative that the $10 bill requirement would not be a problem. The ATM operator would need to install larger bill storach bins. The contractor would be responcible for all maintance and would split the suervice charge with the MTA.
The money could be used for staionsecurity enhancemetns. ATM's in the subway would bring in between $25-50 million a year in revenues.
You have not been paying much attention, have you.
In many cases riders don't have a choice because the ATMs that they use dispense $20 bills.
So instead of going to the ATM for cash to buy their Metrocards, they'll just use their ATM cards in the MVMs.
In addtion the MTA should issue a franchise to an ATM netword to install ATM's in subway stations.. As part of the contract the ATM's should stock $10 bills
Plus as I mentioned in a previos post. The MVM's have more room to issue more dollar pieces no that they no longer need to stock quarters.
They should allow $8 dollars change
as for the Fun Passes. this is a far smaller issue.
Ypu can still add two quarter if you need to even out the value on your card. You just could not use a dollar to add 50 cents
No one will die if they can't get quarters as cahnge.
It would help far more riders if the MVM's had more dollar coins to provide change and increase the availablity of MVM's
It helps far more riders to be able to get $8 in cahnge vs $6
In addditon, unless you add rides in $10 intervals you will end up with values not divisable buy quarters more often then you would get card values divisable by quarters
David Greenberger says he tried out various combinations, and you can add any multiple of $.05.
So to round off your card, add $12.10, and with bonus, it'll be 14.50, rounding off a $1.50 card to $16.00.
That was me, not David Greenberger.
$12.10 with bonus would be $14.52, leaving 2 cents.
The amount to add to round off a card with $1.50 is $13.75
To be fair, I didn't follow through on the transaction, but the machine was ready to accept my money as long as the last digit was a 0 or a 5.
I expect to be taking advantage of that. My MetroCard currently has a balance of $23.90. (I'm not sure why someone would end up with a balance of $1.20, but I found two such cards.)
Buy $27 and get $29.70. Maybe thinking "I want 20 rides worth so if I buy $27 I'll get $30 = 20 rides."
After using 19 rides there's $1.20 left.
So how is this any different than what I reported?
AlM referred to my post. You corrected him. I corrected your correction.
Here is the link again
It's row 37: $11.75
You're right, I didn't. I missed the part where you said that it was actually possible to buy metrocards in $.05 increments. I thought the whole thing was purely theoretical, and then by the time I saw David's post I had forgotten about the spreadsheet. My mistake.
Not such an easy thing to do. They are fine when it comes to withdrawing money but when it comes to actually trusting a machine other than an ATM they are very, very hesitant.
In addtion to allwoing easy withdrawls, it could provide an additonal sales medium when MVM's are crowded or out of money.
Curretly the axis atm network sells metrocards
People withdrawing money from the ATM = The MTA make's money. It does not hurt the average rider becasue most people would be paying the fees to withdraw from thier local bank. Instead of the banks keeping all the profit the MTA and it's riders get a cut
It creates an new revenue stream to help pay for transit operations
Allowing the Tooken booth to make change - COSTS TONS OF MONEY
Make money vs cost riders and taxpayers money
You make the call
The way I would word the contract is that the ATM operator is responciple for maintianing, installing and purchacing all machines. The MTA would get a 30% rolyaltiy on all transactions. With an average ATM transaction fee of $1.50 that adds up quick
I believe that LIRR ticket vending machines, and SEPTA Regional Rail ticket machines are serviced by private contractors.
If someone knows differently, post it here.
The MTA is just an ATM in reverse.
An ATM gives you money, the MTA takes it.
And Subfans are helpless addicts who keep going back for more...
Val calls to us. He hungers. We must feed him. It is the word of Val.
:0)
God, Allan, I didn't realize that MTA was ATM backwards until you had it up there. Yikes, that's hilarious.
Why should the MTA get that much? Screw 'em, give them the 3% to 5% that the give merchants to sell cards. they deserve no more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Plus the cards are given to the stores in some cases on 10 net 30 terms.
Many local stores make virtually nothing off milk and bread. They good milk and brad prices to draw sustomers into thier stores.
In the case of ATM's commissions, the ATM operator is making huge profit amrgins on each transaction and the MTA is suppling the customers
METROCARD MERCHENTS = MTA drawing traffic into your store
ATM +> MTA suppying the customer
That is the reason for the high royalty rate. A company such as AXIS ATM network would increase it's earnings by 1000 percent if it would be able to swing a franchise contract with the MTA
(Incidentally, only the main booth at Grand Central has the perpetual lines. If you need a booth, that station has at least four others. And the handful of MVM's scattered around GCT proper never seem to have lines.)
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's how I break my $20s.
Imagine now that your cafeteria refused to accept $20 bills anymore, then you would know how so many of us feel.
It is interesting to me that your cafeteria is able to figure out how to make change for a $20 bill but a big outfit like the TA still hasn't figured out how to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting. I use a credit card for the supermarket, post office, most stores, restaurants and even transit (used it to buy SEPTA tickets and tokens). I use cash, but very little of it. My credit card gives me a statement with all the transactions logged and 30 days interest-free use of the bank's money. I pay my credit card balances completely at the end of the month.
I use my amex blue to get 5% back on all supermarket purcahces
sunoco card gets me 4% on all my gas purcahces
My etrade card gives me 2% on everything else
I use cash very rarely
I am even crazy enough to buy packs of gum at rite aid with my credit card.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, Anonymouse's strategy is a valid one, and it works well for him. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
when the issue come down to costing me in my pocket that is where I have a problem
Keeping s/a to sell fares costs me in my pocket. If the MTA would close all booths tommorrow. Within a month or two the public would completly adjust.
They would buy thier cards at MVM's
They would buy thier cards at thier local newstand who could sell so many cards that a newstand would open up near every subway entrance if there is not one there already.
You could even give rent newstands the Metrocard encoding machines to sell cards at any ammount or type just as they sell lotto tickets.
You get my point.
When does the job protectism end(which cost private sector jobs) and the needs of the riders take precedent
If people followed that mantra, you would be living in a cave carrying a wooden club and eating recently-killed wooly mammoth for dinner.
Easily. No matter how good your immediate record-keeping system (saving receipts, etc.) you don't always remember how much you have spent, and it's all too easy to end up with a higher balance than you can afford to pay off at the end of the month.
Plus usig your credit card allows you to download all your
transactions into quicken to prepare your next years budget and finacial plan
That depends on your credit card... not all of them have that capability. That also assumes you use some form of computerized budgeting system, which I don't.
As I mentioned, I pay cash (or debit or check) for almost everything. I have exactly one installment debt: my mortgage. I haven't had a car payment in nearly twenty years (although I am making my younger daughter's car payments until she passes the bar and gets a job... she graduates from law school on the 18th). It works.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What ever works for you. My dad handles his fiances in much the same way.
I am the opposite. If I have cash in my pocket I am more likely to buy a bottle of snapple or a slice of pizza. If the lowest bill in my pocket is a $20, I am more likely not to purchce an implulse item.
Although if you are in Rite Aid it does you could buy the snapple with your CC.
I like being able to keep track of all that I spend. Plus I like the cash back.
I calcualated that I have recieved about $20000 in cash rewards in the past 5 years
I also charge my cell phone, direct tv, ez-pass, car insurance, my college tuition and books, my home phone, most groceries, metrocard, gas, all large purcahces such as computer, tv, airfare and hotel from busiess travel etc
Livig in a two fare zone most people I know keep a secound metrocard in thier wallet with one or two fares just in case they forget to refill thier main card. That is why it find all these people who complain aout Tooken booth closing and MVM's out of money so funny.
People act if it like life or death if they can not buy a fare at thier local subway entrance.
The best way to never be stuck is to plan ahead and be prepared. Most successful people are prepared.
Do you buy a new MetroCard every day? If you put the entire $20 on the MetroCard all at once, you wouldn't have to worry about getting change, you'd save time in line, and you'd get two more rides tossed in at no extra charge.
OTOH, it's hardly realistic for a cafeteria diner to buy two weeks' worth of food all at once.
Riders will learn where to buy fares outside the transit system, learn to plan ahead and have money on thier cards at all times
Just as bus riders need to make sure they have exact fare in change or money on thier metrocard, subway riders will adjust also.
It would be a smart move for the MTA to post in each station the location of the closst off site 3rd party metrocard retailers. Over time they could even charge these reatialers for the advertisements.
Oftdn there is a metrocard retailer right near subway entrances. In addition, metrocard sales makes some of the MTA's real estate directly adjacent to subway entrances more atttractive to newstands and other retailer giving them a nice new stream of revenue from metrocard sales.
Free market forces will move in to fill the void. Give it time. I bet many people still don't know that they can buy metrocards at thier local store, axis ATM terminals all over the city etc.
Going foward, what percent of riders buy single ride cards and $7 fun passes one at a time. less then 1% of all metrocard sales(on a total volume basis as apposed to a per transaction basis)
It would have been nice for the MTA to think ahead and stock the MVM's with $10 bills to help riders, but that may have cost more then it waa worth. The MTA needs to look into increasing the storage capasity for change and bill inserted to reduce MVM maintance rewuirements
Just as bus riders need to make sure they have exact fare in change or money on thier metrocard, subway riders will adjust also.
It would be a smart move for the MTA to post in each station the location of the closst off site 3rd party metrocard retailers. Over time they could even charge these retailers for the advertisements. "
And reduce the need for Station Agents so the MTA can close the booths.
Come on VOR - fess up. That is what you were hinting at.
Now if we could all just become metrocard vendors...
(I was going to say - "they will tell you where to go" - but that might be taken the wrong way).
I will call today and post how I made out.
http://www.mta.info/metrocard/merchant_index.htm
Elias
They are working on it.
They're STILL around? Lasted about a week up here. I liked and miss them.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right though, they are good as hell! And they don't have shitty processed chicken either, like McD's and Burger King. All real chicken.
Peace,
ANDEE
Selling single rides at the booth NO
The goal is to eliminate the booths. Why would you want to encourage behavior that would no encourage people to use the MVM's
Mark my words. You will see more Metrocard retailers set up shop and prominantly advertise the fact that they sell metrocards directly infront of subway entrances. Especially entrances that have no booths. Free market capitolistic forces will further eliminate the problem.
A would ventrure to guess the same complaints happened when bus drivers stoped handling money and exact fare was required on buses. People adjusted.
Why should the average rider have to pay for those who do not plan ahead and make sure they have sufficient fare when entering the subway system.
PAth Riders and DC METRO riders survive and prosper.
Give it time. The newspapers are looking for a story to create outrage. The MTA needs to do a better job of premoting it's outside retial network. Station announcements over the public adress premoting outside retailers would help in addtion to the current subway car ad bus ads.
This will also help local newstands and shop owners
Even in New Jersey!
I hate cash, especially change.
-Stef
GR&D...
-Stef
See my earlier post.
-Stef
-Stef
I think i would prefer the busy booth if i were a S/A. The time would move faster. It is not like S/A can pull out a book and read if their are no customers
Why not? I ride the system daily, at 0330, and have seen plenty of S/As reading a book.
Peace,
ANDEE
so much for providing security
I'm Sure it is agains regualtion. If the S/A is reading a book he she is not being the "eyes and ears" the TWu proclaims them to be
And if the S/A is serving five customers a minute? I'd think the book-reading S/A would be more likely to notice something amiss.
The Techers union is doing the same thing filing a disgracefull lawsuit charging the city of racial discrimination in thier decision to lay off 200 techers aids instead of techers. They charge that most teachrs are white and most aids are black and hispanic.
Straphangers camapign, the TWu and other maniciple unions play dirty politics of public oppinion with little regards to the facts of the matter. They dilibertly mislead the public with frivilious lawsuits and press conferences that use lots of inuendos and catch one liners
In the end they hurt thier members as well as the public
Peace,
ANDEE
How about putting a good part of the blame where it belongs - the NY area banks. They are the ones who decided to have their ATMs dispense only $20 bills instead of $10s and $5s.
-Stef
There are plenty of other banks in NYC.
It's not just in the New York area, but pretty much nationwide.
The machine, which was popular with users, was ultimately replaced by one offering $20 bills only.
"Yeah I'd like 3 White Castles and a side order of fries."
"That will be $3, wait, after tax, $20."
Suggest that to Bloomberg and you'll make him a happy man.
Why don't they post a sign and advertise that they don't accept $10 and $20 bills?
If they are so eager to shut out us "low rollers"
Why don't they do away with cash all together so that only people with credit cards are alowed to ride the subway?
That would make the trains real classy.
Next we are going to see our morning pan handlers only accepting paper money!
2) Booths *do* accept $10 and $20 bills for purchases, what they are unable to do is to *give change* in amouts of more than say $6.00
The sign should read:
NOTICE
Station Booths do not return
more than $6.00 in change
regardless of purchase.
The TA would like to discourage passengers who are too seemly to have a credit card or to invest in an abundance of rides all at once.
Next they should require a credit check for all subway riders!
We only want people with good credit on our subway.
Despite what the article wants you to believe, this seems like an unforssen shortage of small bills, not official TA policy to stop making change. S/As need to be given more small bills at the start of the day to account for fewer coming from customers, and the problem is fixed.
In the mall, (the station is situtated in the center of an outdoor mall) there is a newsstand, but since the store opens late (6 AM by current standards), he might have no singles or change to give out to "victims" of the MTA curse.
Fire all Metrocard Clerks
Fire all fare control colletion and security
Raise the tolls On all Crossings
Raise the cost of parking meters
Raise the cost of traffic violations
Apply all above salaries and revenu towards eliminating fare control all togehter
In fact, they could take this one step further and have the TA issue a $2 "coin". They could call it a token!!!
Phila. Inquirer Story here
or point to: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/cities_neighborhoods/philadelphia/5810025.htm
--Mark
This is a study regarding extension of SEPTA's R2 line to Elkton, MD and Perrysville.
Or point browswers to: http://www.wilmapco.org/studies/Track%20A%20Feasability/index.htm
I don't know if this issue has already been posted on Subtalk.
We already know what is being proposed so I won't start typing it again.
Peace,
ANDEE
I won't attend because I think they have it basically right. Just more proof that public hearings are worthless, because only complaines show up.
Public hearings are worthwhile no matter who shows up. The amount of value is dependent on how prepared and educated you are as to the attendees. If the meeting is "worthless" to you, it's your fault, not MTA's.
Service Alert
Insert Text Here
OMG WHAT A SERVICE DELAY! IT'S GIGANTIC, AMAZING, SHOCKING, lol,
Nah, I've seen it severalmany times.
All you need to do is look at a service alert page which gets emptied out when an "event" is over. Sometimes they leave the link up on the main page a little bit too long.
Take yer own screen shot.
Mark
Heh, why don't you?
Link here
If the MTA was irresponcible and used the $600 million savings in last years refinacing to pay for operatins rather then to pay down higher interest debt, this bond sale at this rate would not have been possible
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Details on hearings here
Peace,
ANDEE
I wish his family strength in this tragedy.
Bryan
The truck driver (and his family) has already paid for his stupidity.
It's been reported that the truck was carrying lumber. Maybe a piece came through the locomotive's windshield and struck the engineer.
I'm surprised to hear that locomotives don't have seat belts. Trains don't hit logging and cement trucks every year, but it does happen often enough that a seat belt seems worthwhile. Also for a derailment.
16 logs, 2' in diameter and 40' long, stacked on a trailer, weigh about 50 tons.
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=3730
#1 4805-04/4643-42/4931-31/4813-12.
#2 4818-19/4774-75/4717-16/4778-79.
#3 4873-72/4744-45/4829-28/4733/32.
#4 4622-23/4677-76/4862-63/4593-92.
David
Peace
David
Peace
David
Robert
http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612337319
hope you enjoyed humor only we can sppreciate
:)
Chuck Greene
Make your own
Watch it again
See the top 50! <--------
---Choo Choo
It's much better now! :)
I put together some of my favorite webcams on a site at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html. I have to admit I have been remiss in updating the site so some of the links might be bad.
Am I the only one who is experiencing problems with the Queensboro Plaza view? All I get is a blue screen.
--Mark
Trainset #8: 7166-7170 & 7171-7175.
Trainset #9: 1101-1105 & 1111-1115.
There are now 90 R-142s on the 4.
Coming attractions are 6876-6885 for the 5 (as Stef witnessed), and Trainset #10 may be 1141-1145 & 1151-1155.
25 R-62s are now at Livonia.
Is anyone watching the 3 line?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Those known so far are:
1361-1362-1363-1364-1365.
1401-1402-1403-1404-1405.
1426-1427-1428-1429-1430.
1441-1442-1443-1444-1445.
1506-1507-1508-1509-1510.
None have resurfaced as yet. Am waiting with baited breath for their presence, somewhere.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Robert
There are at least two, perhaps three #5's laid up at Livonia middays and overnights, along with two or so #4's. They march in and out on a regular schedule Mon-Fri. They also stay in the storage yard, and most definitely do not undergo inspection unless something is very wrong.
In fact, I just happened to get my last daylight shot of a Redbird this way, and quite by accident. It was a warm Wednesday afternoon in January (about 40°), and I was looking for ex-Pelham R-62As on the 3. Right time: 15:38. Right place: Sutter Ave.-SB side. Here came 9172 into purrrrrfect sunlight, perfectly signed "5" "Dyre Avenue." . Ahhhh.....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The 4s I never noticed, in fact working at New Lots Yard, I don't remember doing any PM rush put-ins on the 4. I don't think they have any midday layups at NLY but I could be wrong. Its been a while. But the gap sheets at Utica have NO "4 NLTS WDL".
As for specific intervals, I don't know.
I did notice one car with a yellow sticker (I didn't catch the number) had a 'T' marking on the sticker. Transfer?
Red "T" = Transverse Cab (also very old). Many had big red strips above the cab windows. A few still do.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Booyah! That explains it. Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace
David
Daily News
Park Slope Courier (from the Transportation Alternatives site)
They did the same thing back in the late 1980's, early 1990's. That is when the MetroTech buildings were built.
Yeah it did stop my company from moving to NJ but only until last year. We still have the 2 buildings in MetroTech though.
I like to dream.
The FBI's weekly intelligence bulletin to law enforcement agencies throughout the country warns that stolen railraod equipment poses a security concern.
Several devices used to derail railcars and other equipment have been stolen from railyards in East Texas in the past year. Any information on the stolen equipment should be reported to the nearest Joint Terrorism Task Force immediately, the FBI says.
``Theft of this equipment is unusual, as derails have little value outside the rail industry,'' the FBI states. ``Although there is no indication that these thefts are terrorist-related, terrorists have targeted railroads in the past.''
The FBI reminds law enforcement agencies that the al-Qaeda network ``has identified attacks on railroads as a means to disrupt the U.S. economy.''
``Given the potential misuse of derails, theft of this equipment poses potential security concerns,'' the FBI says.
Of the nine stolen ``derails,'' seven were taken from railyards in the Greenville and Sulpher Springs, Texas area. The other two were stolen from areas near Lake Ray Hubbard and Winnsboro, Texas, the FBI says.
The nine stolen derails are the portable hinged-type that would be spiked to the cross-ties of a rail track, the FBI states. Each derail measures about one and one-half feet in length and weighs about 35 pounds, according to the bulletin.
The FBI describes an incident in October 1995 when a 12-car Amtrak passenger train was deliberately derailed near Hyder, Arizona, killing one person and injuring 100 others.
``This suspected act of domestic terrorism remains under investigation,'' the FBI says.
The FBI's weekly bulletin is intended to disseminate relevant terrorism information to state and local law enforcement agencies.
A derail is either spiked down to the cross-ties of a railroad track or bolted to the rail itself. It prevents railcars on a secondary track from accidentally rolling onto a main rail line by directing the wheel off the track, derailing the moving car, the FBI says.
Now, it's whoever who stole them who is obviously unaware of the diversity of objects that can be used to derail a train.
Thanks a lot...
In a few key specialties, consultants are being hired on short term contracts in lieu of hiring, and dependent on the money available.
Wrong time to be looking for a job at the MTA. Perhaps if all those those "new starts" projects get funded, and one has experience inspecting and managing contractors, we'll need people again.
A-G, J, L-N, Q-S, V-W: in use today
H, K, T: formerly used
I, O: never used; too similar to numbers 1 and 0
U: never used; too similar to letter V
(Actually, I've never heard anyone say that 'U' was too similar to 'V', but I'm assuming it would never be used for that reason. Furthermore, to a non-native speaker, "U train" would probably sound too much like "your train," making 'V' the preferable letter to have used.)
That leaves P as the only letter from A through W that, AFAIK, has never been used, and there's no apparent reason why. Anyone know?
The P line will be the biggest running joke around NYC because it means something else.
...The TA will eventually build enough lines and provide enough service that they will run out of letters, and be forced to use double letters...
Yeah, that'll happen. And you'll also win every state's lottery, on your 125th birthday, and be simotaneously struck by lightning and a meteor and be given super powers.
Seriously, though, running out of letters would be a logical rationale for using double letters. The C could become the AA, B the DD, V the FF, Z the JJ, W the RR, N the QQ, etc...
Use Greek letters. Fraternities are identified by them. If some lines used Greek, then the city can start a whole new alphabet.
Other symbols could be used. For the 7 express, a home plate could be used. Maybe for the Brighton Line, a Russian letter, since Brighton Beach is Russian. It is a wacky idea but original.
And what about Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit characters...? You'd have to know what they're called first. As for Greek, not everybody knows the names of the letters (although you have trains already running that look like Alpha, Beta, Epsilon, Zeta, Mu, and Nu not to mention certain ones also looking like the Russian A, V, Ye, M, S and mirror-image of Ya)...
I would say that either doubled letters would return, or perhaps the IRT number system would overflow into the BMT/IND and you'd have the 10 train, 11, 12, etc. However, I suspect that we'll never have that many subway trains operating in NYC as to resort to that.
Probably just switching to all numbers or the overflow method would be preferred.
Still talking about that involving N_Slant_40? Heh, I still remember 'Brighton Basbushka!' :-D
If they went to triple letters, "K" would be a no-go.
Or maybe not. When I first went onto Subtalk some years ago, and read that there used to be a "KK" train, that was my first thought.
Anyway, all of this moot now.
But what if the (P) was diverted down the (PJ)...
Try explaining that GO!
: )
Go upstair and take a P.
She ask me how to get 34th Street
And I tell her to go upstair and take a P
*@#!@ on the face!
What happened here
OH Man, That guy just threw a blow at me for telling his wife to go upstair and take a P
I can just see it now:
Q: How do I get to Times Square?
A: You go down those stairs and take a P on the uptown platform.
How many can really say that and keep a straight face?
Hey, when you gotta go, you gotta go.
But... remember. NAMCO had to change the popular arcade video game, "Puckman" to "Pacman" for "a certain reason". :-)
Remember this is NYC we are talking about and NYers catch on to something like that real fast and usually won't let go.
Which is a perception issue, nothing more. My point was that P is perfectly okay to use regardless of how New Yorkes feel about it.
Tourist: How do I get to such-and-such?
Subway guru: Take a PP against the wall.
SMACK!!!!
: ) Elias
Hey everyone, the Shitty train ends at 86th st until 2005.
--Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
There is no "zero" train (not literally, anyway. Figuratively speaking is a different story). There is no good reason to ever have a "zero" train. Although I feel it doesn't look right, I have (reluctantly) used it in my fantasy map-as designation for the SIR.
"...U train" would probably sound too much like "your train..."
(A): a (one) train
(C): see train
(D)(V)(Z): the train
(G): gee train
(N): an train
(Q): cue train/cute train
(R): our train/are train
(S): is train
No. I'm not gonna say it. It's just WRONG... :)
I don't think there is a problem with U. The reason that it was chosen over U for the new 6th Avenue service is easily demonstrated by showing what I sign on a 6th Avenue local station would look like if it wasn't the V:
23 StreetStation
Or thinking of P and U as Union Pacific, mostly described as "UP". The Second Avenue subway's slogan can be a rip-off of UP's "We Deliver" slogan.
Picture the MTA's ad campaign for the 2nd Ave Subway:
A photo of Chambers Street Station, and below it the phrase:
"We Deliver P-U"
I say that would fit Chambers Street well.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You guys are twisted!
: )
LIRR Diesel Trains were going to terminate at Long Island City, and the Richmond Hill Station was to be an important transfer. LIRR diesel branch users were encouraged to stay on the train at Jamaica (because Jamaica Station was supposed to be chaos) and use the 121st Street J station connection with the LIRR RIchmond Hill station. They were also able to use the Vernon-Jackson connection to the 7 at Long Island City station. The electric branch users I believe were asked to go to Woodside for the 7 (which was also discouraged) or also catch this diesel train to Richmond Hill to catch the "P" train at 121st Street, which is the train they were really pushing as the E and the 7 were thought to have beyond capacity crowds.
Well the strike never happened, the P train never rolled, and Richmond Hill never got it's "15 minutes of fame" as going from one of the least used LIRR stations of the time to one of the busiest. I was all set to get over to 121st Street that morning to ride the "P" express, but of course the strike never happened.
If so, what color?
www.forgotten-ny.com
If so, what color?
Depends...
On Broadway it would have to be yellow.
A yellow circle (P)
On the Queens Crosstown it might be a green (P).
: )
"I" and "O" were avoided for the reasons you already mentioned. There wasn't any objection of any kind mentioned to "U" but at the time the highest letter was "T".
That train is supposed to serve New Utrect, of course!
: )
Conrail Shared Assets still operates in New Jersey.
As of June 1, 1999, Conrail's owners CSX Transportation and Norfolk Southern absorbed most of Conrail's former operations. Although Conrail no longer handles most commercial matters for customers, we play a critical role in serving shippers and receivers as agent for our owners,CSX and NS.In addition, CSX and Norfolk Southern operate trains over Conrail tracks to reach major yards, terminals and distribution facilities located in Detroit, New Jersey and Philadelphia.
Detroit operations
Conrail operations over nearly 90 miles of rail lines in the Detroit area are focused in the corridor connecting Trenton, Detroit and Sterling Heights/Utica. Major yards served by Conrail include Livernois, North, River Rouge and Sterling yards.
.
Northern New Jersey operations
Conrail operations on nearly 200 miles of rail lines in the northern half of New Jersey are concentrated in Essex, Hudson, Middlesex, Monmouth Ocean. and Union counties.
The hub of Conrail activities in the region is Oak Island Yard in Newark, with smaller local serving yards located in Bayonne, Greenville (Jersey City), Linden, Manville, Metuchen, Newark, Old Bridge, Port Reading (Woodbridge), and Red Bank. Conrail also operates new automobile distribution facilities in Northern New Jersey on behalf of its owners. In addition to providing local service for customers along the shared assets lines, Conrail operates provides local freight service along Amtrak's Northeast Corridor between Newark and Trenton.
Philadelphia/Southern New Jersey operations
Conrail operates about 250 miles of rail lines in the Philadelphia-South Jersey area.
In Southern New Jersey, Conrail provides local freight service on virtually all rail lines south of Trenton, and provides connections with the short lines serving the remainder of the region.
In Pennsylvania, Conrail lines serve many customers located in Philadelphia, and along or near the Delaware River in Chester and Lower Bucks counties. Conrail also provides local service for customers located along Amtrak's Northesat Corridor between Philadelphia and Trenton.
The hub of Conrail operations in the region is Pavonia Yard in Camden, New Jersey. In addition, in Pennsylvania local serving yards are located in Chester, Morrisville, and the Midvale, Port Richmond, and South Philadelphia areas of Philadelphia. In New Jersey, local serving yards are located at Burlington City, Mount Holly, Paulsboro and Woodbury.
Conrail's company headquarters are located at 2 Commerce Square, Philadelphia.
i'm the reporter who does the subway column in the new york times. i was interested in doing a funny column about the ugliest station in the system. the other day i came across the thread where a few subtalkers were debating the ugliest and there seemed to be a lot of votes for the bmt chambers street station. i'm going to spend most of the day at that station tomorrow and also wanted to see if i could talk to anyone who has opinions about chambers or other eyesore stations
if you're interested, please e-mail me a phone # where i can reach you tomorrow.
thanks so much. i think it'll make a good column..
randy kennedy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A few hours later, I happened to be walking across the University Heights Bridge, and I saw an R-74 coupled to two Redbirds in the yard. I couldn't make out the numbers but they were probably the same cars.
-Stef
That's good news. It can't be much longer before R-33's have to fill in for ailing R-142's.
i forgot to add: the best e-mail for me is transit@nytimes.com
randy kennedy
If anything, I found your latest article to be very amusing. $80....heh.
Anyway, by far, the ugliest station is the IRT (7) platform at Grand Central. It's so crappy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And it is only about 14 years or so of dirt. That station was revamped, refurbished re - whatever back in the late 1980's/early 1990's after the Newport Mall opened in 1987.
---Choo Choo
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/fortworth/
Phil Hom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
They've got a couple more out there.
It would appear that "they" are Radio Shack, a subsidiary of Tandy. The cars are theirs, they're free to do with them as they please.
If only we had a place to store railcars...
Mark
oh, and the transport from Texas (around $4000)
These cars were still using air-electric PCC equipment and I believe that some were still using belt-driven compressors (PC-2's?), possibly making them the last revenue service cars in North America to employ that type. Most other systems, like Boston, converted to Gardner-Denvers or some other electric-drive compressor on their air cars. I could be wrong, though... can anyone confirm this?
Frank Hicks
--Mark
And expense -- ie. the cost of cleaning the car.
The deal is you let a franchise or concession to run (and clean) the cars, and just take a skim of the profits.
You wouldn't want the line to shut down just because the food service union went on strike, and the other crafts honoured the picket lion!
Elias
Bar cars have matured into bar carts on a few afternoon peak trains. Public Affairs might be able to tell you which trains have 'em. 718-558-8228.
Mark
And those used to get off at Jamaica, and return to NYO for the next train.
Dumb
Not cars, but carts. They serve "refreshments."
Mark
Yeah, they're not common. There's usually a bar cart on the 7:39pm out of Penn Station.
Mark
Funny. That train connects with the bar cart train I posted.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what the MTA would like you to believe, but it's largely an illusion.
Mark
You are right, it is a double standard. Those who ride out on the LIRR generally control the means of production and the capital in this state. If some transit agency told them that they couldn't drink after a day of million dollar trades they would call up their bought rep in Albany and bitch. Most people who ride the subway are poor S.C.U.M that can't handle their liquor (ie that riot and then loot the property of "the man" instead of just going home and beating their spouces or driving drunk). The other people who ride the Subway are only making a short hop from Wall St to Park Ave and wouldn't really have time to sit and throw one back anyhow.
Satire aside, the subway is a far denser system and the city is full of poor and alcoholics who are disruptive when drunk and nothing better to do than get drunk. While LIRR riders are trying to get home, the Subway can be a destination in and of itself. The system would become a giant 486 mile long bar full of pissing, vometing, harrassing drunks who are not meerly passing through, but there to stay.
Well, the bar car is a licensed liquor establishment. Amtrak's restaurant car serves wine and beer with meals; presumably on MTA trains ou are served liquor in the same legal setting that you would be served liquor, say, in the Houlihans at Penn Station.
You can be served liquor on an airline flight.
In all these cases, a server who is legally allowed to serve you is also responsible for observing the law about liquor service, just as he/she would be in a bar.
The subway is not a liquor serving establishment.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll stick to Amtrak thank ya, though the "Cafe car" leaves quite a bit to be desired. One of the FINEST meals I ever had was on a train from Providence, RI to NYC - Weinerschnitzel done RIGHT. Of course, this was back in the 1960's when amenities were EXPECTED.
I'm wondering if I'm in the wrong business. Maybe I should get together with Peter Rosa, open up a "beer hat" concession for subway riders, and Peter can sell the "beer pants" plus cabana rental to put them on ... like any TRUE New York ontapanoors, we can service the "customers" coming and going. :)
Cool idea, but alas it won't work. You see the NYPD's already cornered the market on adult diapers and driven the cost through the roof. Sorry.
DAMMIT, I *almost* raised enough cash to have Shrub come to *OUR* factory for a photo-op. DAMMIT! That's the LAST time I'll respond to *YOU*!!! Frrrrp! :)
DAMMIT! Be a *MAN*!!! Get out there and SELL those damned BEER PANTS! Call them "code orange" if you must to LIVE with yourself, but fer krissakes, SELL them damned beer pants ... de economy *DEPENDS* on you! Heh.
Peace,
ANDEE
CG
Don't get me started. With all the pigs there are that ride the LIRR, I hope the day never comes. Some of the trains are full of empty plastic bottles, coffee spilt all over the floors, food wrappers in the seats and newspapers strewn all about. The Clean Train campaign eh.
Hey folks. Wait till you get home to eat or eat before you ride. How anyone can eat chciken or pizza in the subway or on the LIRR escapes me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Except that American Pig is a human...
LOL..
He is? That's disappointing. I was going to hire him to root out some truffles for me.
Because Bostonians can't pronounce anything ;^)
I worry that Light Rail planners will look at Electric LRTs as 'too expensive,' and possibly hold SNJLRTs 34 mile for 1 billion dollar pricetag as a justification for skipping electrification and just end up buying initially cheaper diesel cars. Pretty soon we'll just have diesel LRTs, because you can get 'more bang for the buck' no matter what the long term costs might be, with all the smell, noise and assorted costs (fuel, maitenance and such) that a diesel brings along with it. Eventually I would not be surprized if exsisting LRT systems with electric power have their wires removed so that DLRVs could be used. Of course that would be followed, perhaps a generation later by a need to either electrify or re-electrify the lines once we realize that the Diesels are noisier, smellier and more expensive than the electrics in the long run.
Course on the other hand, DLRVs could enable smaller communities or more dispersed areas to recieve service much like the larger cities, all without the initial startup costs of electric lines. This could enable more people to benefit from the initial expenditure.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm not saying that it's doom for something like the NYCTA, but right now (well for the past 2 decades or so) we're seeing an amazing boom in LRT building, and I've become afraid that with the minimalist attitude in this country we'll just automatically chose the easiest solution that gets the people their rails. All it would take would be SNJLRTS being moderately successful, not neccessarily at the farebox, just revitalizing some of the towns along it's line would get it enough attention, and other communities could automatically decide that DLRV was the way to go and they'd eschew their LRT plans for DLRVs.
I'm just wondering if anyone out there shares my somewhat gloomy feelings about the DLRVs, or if some people are truely excited about the introduction of such a flexible vehicle to American Transit.
I'm more worried that the current boom in Electric Light rail will be passed over for Diesel powered equipment because township transit planning commissions will decide that their lower initial cost is more important than their possibly higher maitenance. It could very well be like a neo-NCL kind of thing, tearing down the wires for Diesel LRTs.
Correct, but they're not always turned on.
Merrick Avenue. That must have been it because I believe I passed there at just about 7:48 AM yesterday morning. I don't go that way every day or always at that time, but yesterday I happened to be there. My office is in Plainview so, when I'm not visiting clients, I often take Sunrise to 135 to avoid the traffic on the parkway.
The M-1's were delivered with a destination sign above the T/O front window, as well as small side signs.
The systems were removed shortly after the cars went into service as they did not work -- they were supposed to change automatically, the entire train's signs -- by selecting a reading in the T/O cab. Not sure, but I think the entire sign unit was removed from the cabs; on the car sides on many of the cars, a blank piece of stainless steel was fitted into the opening where the signs were.
WMATA had this sort of system in its early years, and they, too, had many problems with the automated roll signs. The 1000 series cars were delivered with them; the 2000 series cars came with flip-dot electronic signs which were more reliable.
Metrolink out here in southern California has the flip-dot signs in their first order of cars (cab cars 601-631 and trailers 101-163). They are hardly readble through the tinted window glass. The newer cars (cabs 632-637 and trailers 164-209) have LCD -- yellow-on-black -- and those, too are not readble very well through the tinted glass. You can only read the signs when it's dark outside.
The systems were removed shortly after the cars went into service as they did not work
Here's M-1 numero uno, making your point abundantly clear. At least it's still sporting that spiffy blue.
Mark
CG
CG
LOL (I CAN'T possibly be right...)
www.forgotten-ny.com
It definitely can be a problem at 125th or Fordham on MNRR. Different trains come in within minutes of each other going to different destinations. Every now and then, someone doesn't understand English well enough or doesn't pay attention enough, and ends up in the wrong place.
Of course, roll signs wouldn't help that much. If you're going to Mt. Vernon East, and the train says Stamford, that doesn't mean the train necessarily stops where you're going.
Some of the later series of New Haven division cars did have front roll signs. Again, they have basically gone out of service.
Electronic signs a la the R142/143 are the way to go.
Good in non-rush times when designations like "Stamford Local" are well defined. Still doesn't help much in rush hour when there are dozens of possible itineraries, unless there's room to say things like "Stamford express, 1st stop Greenwich".
And even then people who don't know the line won't have a clue.
Or do the rail systems schedule some trains on line X that stop at A and bypass B and other trains on line X that bypass A and stop at B? In that case, my algorithm fails.
Noroton Heights, etc. all the way to New Haven;
South Norwalk, then Bridgeport, then all stops to New Haven;
Bridgeport, then all stops to New Haven;
South Norwalk, then all stops to Bridgeport.
Quite confusing. Posting the next stop would be very useful, however.
Your algorithm usually works for regular riders. And in fact, conductors do generally shout out things like "this is a Harrison train, 1st stop New Rochelle".
For casual riders it is a tricky problem.
It probably isn't all that easy. On the LIRR, half the weekend trains that stop at Lynbrook are Long Beach trains and half are Babylon trains. Half the Babylon trains skip Lynbrook. Babylon diesel trains can go either via Mineola/ Hicksville (Main Line) or via Freeport (Babylon branch). Some Babylon trains skip Kew Gardens and Forest Hills but stop at Woodside and St. Albans; others do the opposite. Rush hour trains do all kinds of strange things in order to put the capacity where it is needed most. A few select rush hour trains even skip Jamaica.
see how confusing it gets just to say it destination
That assumes that the trains are operating according to the set schedule and arrive at exactly the designated times. It can get confusing during rush hour if the trains are early or late or cancelled and the platform announcements are garbled for whatever reason. On the LIRR, sometimes Flatbush trains arrive within minutes of Penn trains. Roll signs would be helpful.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
R32 C Train - #3417
R44 A Train - #5325
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I hope the former. The commuter railroads are not parts of NYCT. (They are, however, agencies of the MTA, as is NYCT.)
BTW: that was a NO JAMAICA stop. Also, the signs EVERYWHERE said so. About 50 people in my car got on the wrong train, too.
So why run two different subsidized public services in competition? If bus riders rose the subway, it would make even more money, since most bus trips are inter-borough where capacity is available. And reducing parallel bus service would free up more buses for crosstown and feeder routes.
Add to the fact that it runs very slowly due to traffic and infrequently, it's not worth waiting for except during weekend GOs on 4th avenue.
But you have to carefully define "parallel".
Agreed. People taking the B63 are not going to the same destinations as people riding the R train. For that matter, you could consider the B63 a "super-local" transit line, with the R playing the "express-local" part. And don't forget the value of a linear surface route connecting with all cross street bus transfers. Add all those riders onto the subway and you're talking major crush loads, easy. Sure, it's good to elimate unecessary routes....but in Brooklyn and New York there is a level of utilization that demands both services run. Same reason we have heavy duty four and six track subway R.O.W.s. The primary New York gestalt is "Keep Movin'".
The load carried by any individual bus line is so small you could put it on a subway and no one would ever notice. Few routes if any have more than 30 buses per hour. That's 1 train per hour of load.
Also, the bus riders would be taking the local subways instead, not the expresses, and no locals subways are maxed out yet.
Nevertheless, I don't think it's a good idea. The bus lines paralleling the subways generally get good usage and aren't the big financial drains.
Oh? In the afternoon, the 6 and 1/9 are more crowded than the 4/5 and 2/3. See the stats I recently posted. (Peak crowding on the 1/9 is between 6 and 7, not between 5 and 6.)
Or are you saying that more service can be added to those lines?
That is certainly true in Manhattan, less true elsewhere. Remember, buses are used for intra-borough trips, so those using subways instead of buses would be getting off as others got on, and adding nothing to the peak load into the tunnels. And, aside from the IRT and the QB, subway lines could add service is cars were available. They could provide cheaper service than buses.
Note the subject line, "beggars can't be choosers." No doubt reducing paralell bus service would be a service cut, as the example of the B63 indicates. People would have to walk extra blocks on both ends of the trip, because 5th Avenue is a block away from 4th, and the R train stops at fewer stations. So eliminating service on paralell bus routes is bad.
But the question is, what bad things are worse. This year we raised the fare and raised taxes, but we also pushed pension and debt costs into the future. Another crunch will come next year, and we aren't going to have higher fares and taxes for a second year (that's year three).
So admitting that it's bad, it's time to talk about which bad things are less bad. One option is to close the subways overnight when traffic is lighter, and run buses instead, but some have said that the trains are now crowded enough off hours that substituting buses wouldn't save. Another option is this one.
A third option is deferred maintenance, or drastic cuts in subway service. The subway nearly covers its operating costs. Let's not go there, again.
1 tph? yes, absolutely. But as I said I don't think there's any point in cutting those bus lines; they're not the big money losers.
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. Professionally I work in the transit field, but I am also the father of an early 20's son who is disabled but not wheelchair bound. Accompanied by myself or his mother he can use any transit service, but he needs help on stairs. Travelling alone he is limited to conventional taxicabs or paratransit service. So I probably understand this issue better than most people. Parallel bus service is not redundant, but an important adjunct to subway service in New York.
It may be that parallel bus routes are primarily serving elderly or disabled riders that can't (without hardship) use the non-accessible portions of the subway system. If these routes were cut, such riders might flock to paratransit. And we all know about the economics of paratransit, right?
Mark
I don't. Could you or someone provide some illumination on the topic?
Exhorbitantly high costs for very poor service.
And those costs are very highly subsidized. Farebox recovery? What farebox?
Paratransit's got its place, but not to the exclusion of buses.
Mark
In the public interest, the Transit Authority has a duty to avoid wasteful duplication.
If a bus and a subway run close together, then consider closing one or the other, whichever would save more money and inconvenience the fewest people by the least amount. Of course the two criteria may not always coincide.
Buses are better at serving sparsely populated areas, where there are not enough passengers to justify a subway service.
So where subway ridership is light, consider closing the subway line or at least some of its stations. Even if there is no parallel bus, consider providing one if it is the cheaper alternative. Or (horror of horrors) let the people walk a few blocks!
Is it economical to run subway trains to the Rockaway peninsula, a thinly populated area with very low subway ridership?
And why should three subway lines run all the way to Stillwell Avenue, whose only "catchment area" is the Atlantic Ocean? The present temporary arrangement, with shuttle buses, seems more economical than the permanent one.
Other places where the bus could be retained rather than the subway include the northern ends of elevated lines in the Bronx. One example is the Wakefield line, where the bus exactly follows the subway along White Plains Road.
In outlying areas, buses can serve as feeders to the subways.
And how about people who want to transfer between these lines?
My point is that subways are very good at transporting large numbers of passengers in densely built-up areas, where they have both a speed advantage and a capacity advantage over surface transport. In particular they are very good at transporting masses of passengers between densely populated residential areas and the Central Business District.
But the advantages of subways diminish as you reach into the more sparsely populated outlying areas, where buses can serve larger areas at lower cost. Buses can serve the lower-density catchment areas, feeding into the rapid-mass-transit subway.
Subways and buses perform best in different situations. So if you plan to close one to avoid duplication, you have a choice between closing the bus and closing the subway. The choice should depend on the situation.
If the trains didn't run all the way to Stillwell, they'd still have to turn somewhere. Probably Stillwell much of the time.
I strongly suspect the extra cost of the current shuttle buses is more than the cost of just running all 4 lines to Stillwell.
Besides, in the summer months the demand for Stillwell is there on all 4 lines.
Given that the subway line already exists, and is being upgraded, the additional operating costs (if any) of running those trains to Stillwell Avenue are probably quite low. The capital costs have already been spent, but in principle I suppose you should allow for amortization.
According to the schedules, there are plenty of trains on the White Plains Road line, but north of Gun Hill Road there are relatively few riders compared with some of the lines in Queens. The Dyre Avenue line also has low ridership, but it has no parallel bus route.
You obviously object strongly to the idea of cutting back the White Plains line and (judging from your response) I don't think you need worry because if the idea was ever taken seriously, which I doubt, there would surely be a public outcry and then the politicians would intervene to keep the subway running.
It would be far cheaper to run shorter trains that would allow one man crews instead of two,
The bennifits are 70% reduction in labor costs(OPTO T/O get paid an extra $2 a hour)
Fewer car miles run reducing maiantance and engery costs
More frequent service that will attract more riders and possible elliminate some redundent bus routes in some areas IF and ONLY IF all stations are upgraded to ADA complient. In addtion move to a model where all tooken booths are closed and security is provided via CCTV cameras and station security personel.
Elliminated train service would reduce ridership overall. Eliminating sduplicate bus service would not reduce ridership.
Elimiating train service would also reduce the number of people headingin to the city off hours reducing tax revenues
Is this a proposal to save money or to improve service?
I'm not convinced you can do both, especially on the 4.
I am aware that this setup would not work on all lines at all non rush hour times.
If your goal was to strictly save money, many lines could operate comfortable with half length OPTo trains with no increase in TPH.
Of course the more TPH of addtional service you add the fewer dollars you save.
Adding more TPH for example on the Brighton would significantly increase ridership on weekends, Current weekend trains are fairly full during the day due to the long waits between trains.
Many riders simply drive into the city due to the longer waits and the greater avaiablity to transfer to other lines to get them where they need to go. Two 8-15 waites is not acceptable.
Increase ridership for "errands" such as taking the subway a few stops to go shopping and return home Pulling people who live near the train from their cars
The increased ridership would being in more revenue
Some cost savings + increased revenue = Lower operating cost and more convience.
Also the subway was fully ADA complient some duplicate bus lines could be eliminated. Of course this is far in the future but should be a conciderqtion when the MTA undertakes station repair and long term planning
Shorter trains and the need for decoupling and re-coupling needs to be done wisely.
All trains decoupled should be put into service.
New coupler technology that does not requires someone physically decoupling the cars from the track bed would reduce costs. Preferable an autoamtic coupling coupler that at a push of the button (and a safety key of course) could separate and reconect train sets
Easy coupling and decoupling of half train permenat train sets could also allow longer trains to be operated during the peak of a weekend period or to allow the train set to be put into rush hour service in ther morning quickly and effeciently
The above would not require an addtional person to couple and recouple train sets. train sets would pull into terminal, and the existing crew would pull the train out as two separate trains
In cab flat panels to view platform cameras would help to reduce dwell time but are mandatory to impliment the service. Such a system could also safely allow full length OPTO operation
The Lex Express, the Flushing and the QB are different -- you can have pretty good headways off peak because the ridership is so high. Others could perhaps use more service.
As for the "L", I witnessed an interchange between a signal engineer and an RTO guy at a meeting once.
Signal Engineer: "Once we finish CBTC, you can run half length trains twice as often! You can do 30 tph or more!"
RTO Guy: "We tried to run more trains during the Willie B shutdown, but we couldn't get them turned fast enough at the 8th Avenue interlocking."
All it take is one bottleneck.
It interesting to see how CBTC effects the "L" train. What could be done at the interlocking to allow more trains to be turned. Could human issues such as operators moving from the front to the back of the train play a part in the slow turnaround. Could ATO solve this problem?
A few lines that could bennifit half lenth OPTO and equiptemtn is available to do so
N,Q,W.
Q (my home line) could easily use 4 Car OPTO service
between 9 pm- 7 Am and all of the day on the weekends. The Q has plenty of capasity to turn trains at bith it's terminals to make the service work. The weekned service itervals if all the 4 car untis operated on the local track on the brighton would be more tph on the local track then curent rus hour service.
Both the N and W lines could bennifit from more frequent shorter trains.
The sea beach and 4th ave services need more frequrnt service desperatly nights and weekends. People avoid the subway in these area during these times. Both these lines have plenty of potential ridership if the service was provided.
The R could also bennifit but not sure if the R46 are det up in 4 car units.
A few questions about coupling and decoupling car units?
How long does it take with the current process?
Could a coupler be desinged that would allow the train crew couple and decouple the mechanical and electrical conections at a touch of a button?
Could what I preposed ccoupling and decoupling occur in a terminal station with such automated coupler device?
From a logical technical point of view I don't see why it couldn't be done or engineered to be done. Some of the communications functions in the future could be duplicated by wireless conectivity if the automatic cupling and decoupling results in communication iisues when trains are reassembled
Almost all of them have been for some time. In fact, 'B' units have no cabs!
There are 13 2-car units with cabs at both ends, and one 2-car unit with a cab at one end. (make sure that the blind end isn't the end of a train mr. yardmaster, haha. I'd like to see that happen one day!)
Other then the franklin ave shuttle, I am not aware of any other line that runs in two
someone will be a bit embarrased and in troublr ig the blind end ends up at the end of the car.
Presumably because when rebuilding time came around, there were More units with cabs than without. These 14 2 car R46 units proved useful for 6 car G train service. That one A-B unit gave a rider an unparalleled view of a C/R at work in his cab (one that probably made him uncomfortable, to say the least).
Why can't they have one extra T/O standing at the other end to take the train out as soon as the switch can be set? The only problem that type of terminal should cause is trains crossing in front of eachother on the crossover.
I through the question your responded to as a retorical question.
Once ATO takes hold, their will be no one driving the train. Just illustrates another advantage of ATO and why the MTA is paying the price now for not begining to roll out ATO years ago
Maintenance costs, no? Takes the same amount of personnel to run a short train as a 10-car one.
Yes, but then the goal is a service improvement. OTOH, let's say you are running one train every 10 minutes to provide decent service, but they are far from full. So instead of twice as many half trains, you do a little less -- one train every six minutes instead of one every five. Now you've saved one train. But if dwell time goes up, it takes time to merge and split, and you have higher pay, you've lost your savings.
Perhaps the greatest benefit would be overnight -- except that it is then that the tracks are maintained, and with less than 20 mintues between trains you'd need more G.O.s.
It would only be more expensive if you ran twice as many TPH. In addtion to the diffentce in pay between C/R and T/O there is also OPTO bonus to concider.
On most lines you would not need to run twice as many TPH. You would need only 1.1 to 1.5 more TPH to sufficently handle the traffic load. Most lines on weekends are not anywhere near capasity.
On the Q for example, the trains run on weekneds at less then 50% capasity and 70% of seats full. I spent 2 hours making observations along the broadway and brighton line this afternoon and evening.
At 1.1 to 1.5 increae in tph total car usage is reduced by 30-40% reducing manitance and fuel expenses. Payrol for train crew salaries would only be reduced bt 20-30% due to the increased cost of T/O pay vs C/R pay plus OPTO differential
In addtion more riders will be drawn into the system increasing revenue by 10%
the end result of OPTO service more often on most lines would be a reduction of cost by 20-30% and an increase in revenue by 10%. Increased rider abolity to easily transfer to other lines especially in night and late night hours.
Some lines in the mid afternoom may need slightly more then 1.5 tph increase with the shorter trains, bur most would not.
As for the dwell time increase, most stations are on the T/O side of the train. Cosistant obvious signage utilizing color coding and station announcements will educate riders where to wait.
Twice as may train per hour would mean a nice jump in ridership.
In the case of the broadway line, frquent service would more evenly distribute the load on the local and express tracks reducing and crowding issues and drawing riders who would otherwise take a cab. Most cab riders are subway riders not bus riders
And then would your half-length trains be able to accomodate it? Doubtful.
I support this plan during the night. But weekends, trains on most lines are already running pretty frequently (less than double digit wait) and with pretty decent ridership. Doing it middays would just be an operational headache, and if there's a delay......
Yes the half length trains would be able to handle the extra load. Remeber that current utilization on most lines at best is 70% at the current services capasity at the peak areas of the route at the peak of the day. Most lines are far bellow that. Reducing the number of cars per hour by 25-30% will still leave plenty of capasity to handle current loads, running one to two additioal tph on top of that would be able to handle the addtioal 10-15% ridershp increase. Also keep in mind that most lines have plenty of capasity for addtional TPH at night and on weekends.
You need to run 1.85 TPH short trains to equal the current operating costs of the current weekend full length service. IF ridership increases 10-15%. The breakeven cost moves up to aprox 2.1 tph increase in service. Once you exceeed 2x increase in TPH you begin to add addtional maintance and energy costs into the equation.
As more r-143 and the upcoming r160 are put into service, such as service pattern could be implimented where apropiate systemwide. There is currently not enough cars with full width cabs to impliment such as service systemwide on weekends. In adddtion There is issues on the broadway line until feb on weekends because of a GO that routes all broadway service via the tunnel.
It would be nice for the MTA to experiment with such as service. The best place to start would be to reduce the headway on the G on saturdays and run the OPTO service. It has been posted on this board that saturday G service will be moving back to two man crews due to crowding with 12 min headways.
Reduce the headways to aprox 8 minutes, Experiment with which combination of signage, announcements, lighting and advetisments will help to train riders to wait in the proper part of the platform and reduce dwell time.
I am a big fan of in cab monitors to control the doors via CCTV camera's. try that out on some weekends. Allow the motorman to operate both and have a supervisor(really the projoect manager inm charge of the OPTO implimentation improvemetnt project). The project managers job is two fold. To look for ways toimprove the implimentation and to help the T/O if he runs into trouble as he/she gets used to doing both jobs. If successful this could pave the way for PTO full length trains operated in the same manner
Look at N/R/g/f/2/3/d They have double digit headways most of the weekend. The broadway local which serves mostly manhattan residents would see significant ridership increases if more frequent service was provided. Many of these residents take the cab or walk medium distances where if they knew the trian would arrive rairly frequently, many wouuld choose to use the train
The brighton Q line has decent ridership but would gain more ridership if headways were shorter . I ride the brighton to school on sat and sundays. You see lots of bored faces waiting for the train.
The Q on sat runs aprox every 8 min from 7am-8pm. After 8pm the headway increases to 9-20 min. Using shorter train at 6 min intervals and running some of those trains as brighton express would attract more ridership. If the increased ridership results in the need for more half length train, that is good news for the MTA, The union train operators and the riding public. As long as the extra trainsets load factor is about 50% the MTA is profitable operatig the service.
I went out with a clipboard yesterday and interviewed some riders(I am not shy and had to do such surveys while I was in college for a marketing class). I dressed nice, made a little sign and explained to the riders that I was doing a reasearch paper for my masters in urban planning(a small lie)
I asked 30 riders along the broadway line at 24, 23, 34 and 42nd st stops a few questions?
Q1)What is thier three biggest compliants about night and weeknd service?
The top reponces were.
1)train re-routes due to construction and inconsistant announcements by conductores and signage
This was the biggest complaint by far. 28 of 30 respondents had this as their number one complaint
2)Long waites
3)Hard to transfer on weekends
4)Smelly conditions with all the construction
Q2) Would they be open to the idea of shorter trians if they came more often even if it ment that they may not get a seat all the time?
This questrion got mixed reponces. They all liked the idea of more frequent service especially now that the fare was increased
Those who were traveling within manahattan all loved the idea as standing for 5 min would not be an issue.
Those who lived further like the fact that the trains come more often, but were not as happy if they had to stand for a long period of time.
Being that the survey was informal, I mentioned that standing room only would only be an issue on the most crowsed portions of the route in manhattan.
Q3)What is your responce if I told you that such a service would not cost more then the current service the MTA runs and actually would cost the MTA less?
The riders surveyed were shocked that they could have service more frequently and not cost the MTA any more the now. Most asked me how was this possible and why wasnt the MTA using it now.
All it take is one bottleneck.
8th Ave is a signaling created bottleneck. If CBTC doesn't fix it, CBTC is worthless. I've described it before, but let me describe it again.
Scenario: either 1 or 2 trains are sitting at 8th Ave. It doesn't really matter, as long as the 1 train is on the north side of the platform.*
1. Time = 0 or before. A train arrives at 6th Ave. It sees a red signal and waits.
2. Time = 0. The train at 8th Ave starts to move.
3. Time = +30 seconds. The train at 8th Ave clears the interlocking. The Train at 6th Ave still sees a red signal and remains where it is.
4. Time = + 60 seconds. The train from 8th Ave. starts to enter the station at 6th Ave. The red signal for the train already at 6th Ave turns green and that train now starts to move.
No wonder they can't turn more than 15 tph. The signal at 6th Ave. stays red for a full 30 seconds after there is no possible train in the way, and the train is held a good 1500' in back of the switch. If it takes 30 seconds to throw the switch, they need a new switch. That's cheap relative to a whole CBTC system.
* IIRC, this scenario even happens when the only train at 8th Ave is at the south platform and no switches need to be thrown. But I'm not 100% sure. Besides, usually there are 2 trains at the 8th Ave platform by the time a train is ready to leave.
They are installing new switches. Perhaps this will go away. Let me know in 2005.
Glad to hear it.
"Perhaps this will go away."
I sure hope so.
"Let me know in 2005."
Whether it works well from the start or not, CBTC on the L will give us all a lot to post about.
You mean they are replacing faster acting elctro-pneumatic switches with slower acting electric switches?
You mean they are replacing faster acting elctro-pneumatic switches with slower acting electric switches?)
Yes, that's what I've heard. The newer switches are electrical, which are slower, and that accounts for some lost capacity.
During at time of financial constraints and falling ridership, New York City's transit system did what you might approve of -- think of the short term, and don't worry about the long term. They replaced equipment that cost more to maintain and was less reliable with equipment that cost less to maintain and was more reliable. It was also slower. They also reset all the signals to slow the system down, to ensure greater safety.
It is easy to say now that it was a mistake, but I wasn't there at the time and neither were you. They were operating under different contraints. Then ridership boomed, and things changed.
Whoever dedided they didn't need higher speed switches was no different in their thinking that those who say we don't need the Second Avenue Subway. Why spend the money?
Signal Engineer: "Once we finish CBTC, you can run half length trains twice as often! You can do 30 tph or more!"
RTO Guy: "We tried to run more trains during the Willie B shutdown, but we couldn't get them turned fast enough at the 8th Avenue interlocking."
You have a signal engineer who does not know that the terminals are the constraint to most train operations.
You have an RTO Guy who does not wish to admit that they used to operate 60% more trains per hour through the same 8th Ave interlocking with the same signal system.
You have somebody listening to this with a straight face, thinking he is hearing wisdom.
Larry, Moe and Curly? :-)
The answer is no. The end of the line is where the yards and turnarounds are, so that's where the trains are going. Besides, eliminating a paralell bus means you have to walk a few extra blocks. Eliminating a train means you have to take a slow local bus and then transfer. Much worse.
ALL lines, not just WPR, are empty at the end of the line. If they weren't, there would be no room for people closer in to get on. They become crowded as they approach Manhattan and other close in areas (or outbound, become LESS crowded as they move away). Therefore, bus riders making shorter trips could use the train at no additional cost, because they would be getting off before others get one. That's the point.
THE PUBLIC WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH 5 CAR OPTO ON IRT THE 2/5 NIGHTS AT TIMES WHRN THE TRAINS SERVICE EXCEEDS 8 MIN INTERVALS AT ALL TIMES EXCEOT RUSH HOURS
I don't fully disagree, if it's feasible. But your view is usually one of reducing expenses.
Half length OPTO costs more for various reasons:
- Time spent splitting and reconnecting trains.
- Increased run time because of increased dwell time at each station. The riders NEVER get used to the short trains because it's different new riders each night.
- On the 2 and 4 you need the train capacity. So you can't run 1.5 times as many half length trains; you have to run twice as many.
By the way, the 5 at night is a Dyre shuttle only. Cost savings and all that. If you make it a full length route now you have 3 services on the Lex at night, which may be a bit much.
"Half length OPTO costs more for various reasons: "
All the below issues could be adressed to reduce thier impact on users and cost to perform them
"Time spent splitting and reconnecting trains."
Design a new coupler. The goal would be to be able to decouple and recouple each half train unit within one minute or less. Such a coupler could be connected and disconnected from within the cab, by the train operator. This is something that definatly can be designed and implimented
"Increased run time because of increased dwell time at each station. The riders NEVER get used to the short trains because it's different new riders each night"
Proper consistant signage, lighting, uding color coding combined with station announcements and in car and bus advetising campaign could change public behavior over time. The current G impliminataion is poorly executed. Conductors on train connecting eith the G do not inform riders of where the G will stop.
One example of where riders have adjusted is the franklin Ave shuttle at prospect park station. Riders know which car on the D/Q to ride on to get a cross platform transfer. You also see riders waiting in the propper part of the platform for the train.
also riders wkow what car to ride on to meet up with the stairway at thier destination. People will adjust if the MTA keeps the signage consitant and the sercive operated consistantly over time
"On the 2 and 4 you need the train capacity. So you can't run 1.5 times as many half length trains; you have to run twice as many"
Each lines situation needs to be evaluated individulally. Although twice as much service will cost a bit more. I firmly believe that more riders will utilize the service in most cases. There is a group og riders who like to use the subway but avoid it off hours due to the inconvience of the long waits and difficult transfers.
Thus the increased service would over time draw more riders thus justify the additional costs.
The Q line on weekends would also need close to twice he current tph as the current service due to the current volume and the additional riders who would choose to ride the subway
"By the way, the 5 at night is a Dyre shuttle only. Cost savings and all that. If you make it a full length route now you have 3 services on the Lex at night, which may be a bit much."
Shuttle services chase riders away. Much of the cost savings are chased away by the reduced ridership. Only riders with no other choice will utilize the service. The same is true with the R and W shuttles.
Many people have options such as driving or not going at all. how much economic activity is lost due to this.
last night I choose not to meet a friend in the city because I dreaded the long wait home. The place we were going was not near a Q station thus I would need to walk far to the train making it hard to catch the train with 20 min headways overnight
That has little to do with it. Hoyt-Schermerhorn (the only cross platform transfer during peak hours) is a case I observe everyday. When an A or C comes into the station and people get off, everybody moves right to where the G train's rear willl be (annoyingly too. Many people are either getting off at the very front or very back of the train, and it makes those parts of the trains more crowded). But if there's a G train there already, everybody has to make a mad dash if they aren't in a middle car. And don't say that people should be on the right car of the A/C, because that's unrealistic.
Additionally, you have many stations with Front AND rear entries. People are always running for the G train. At nights, should the C/R hold for these people on the lines you're naming for this OPTO?
last night I choose not to meet a friend in the city because I dreaded the long wait home. The place we were going was not near a Q station thus I would need to walk far to the train making it hard to catch the train with 20 min headways overnight
Welcome to the world of weekend "G" service. That service runs a good 12-15 minutes apart on the weekend, and really is just a LONG shuttle, but it still sees half decent ridership when compared to it's weekday ridership #'s. The wait isn't going to always chase people away.
In my example the A and C would also be utilizing OPTO
Riders once agin will adjust to where to use the entrace closest to where the train stops.
If the train comes more often, the average wait time even if the rider enters at the wrong part of the station when the train is already in station will be somewhat similar to the current wait with the longer ttains woth shorter waits
example
15 min headways on the R on weekends.
Half car OPTo service 7 min headways. Even if the rider misses the first OPTo short train, he is still likely to wait less then if the service was running at 15 min headways. At worst he waits the same amount of time.
Weekend C service; yes. When the R-160 arrives this should be implemented on the C line. Weekend A service; no. The line gets too many riders from transfers to have short trains on the weekends. Trains get pretty crowded pretty fast. As for night implementation on the A, it'd have to be fairly late, because when the A begins late night service pattern, it's running close together already and is pretty full.
The A has fairly good service levels which would suggest fairly good ridership. which is always good
Like I stated before my goal is not to cut costs at the expense of the good of the rider
It is my view that the longer trains more oftem is both a waste of money and bad for the riding public
Since all lines bar the G run in Manhattan I don't think you can run short trains at night. A lot of what you propose is dependent on so many other operational changes in the system. Is this feasible? It's asking a lot of the TA. Maybe it can work in a few places but systemwide? You need long trains at night. Improve the signaling characteristics, get more cars in circulation, adjust routes. Don't shorten the trains. I saw that in the `80s; taking a four car D train from Columbus Circle to Kings Hwy at around one in the morning. Made the ride uncomfortable, standees by 34th Street all the way into Brooklyn, and it made the platforms seem LESS safe. One point I haven't seen mentioned here: the welcoming sight, late at night, of a solid subway train with all the doors open filling the length of a train platform. Another one a them psycho-log-ikal efforts fer sure...but effective enough at that. With short trains it's like, the oasis off in the distance....
The number of TPH will be still less then current rush hour TPH service levels. Singnaling charteristics would not have to be monified.
Less total cars will be on the road .
Your experience form the 1980's would not be duplicated because during the 1980's the MTa could not run addtional tph because of the need for 2 man crews.
I do not support shortend trains without incresed TPH. The goal is to come up with balace between cost reductions and reduced headways.
More tph and shorter train is more safe becasue it reduces waits at stations overnight and consilidats riders into fewer cars to increase the chance a police officer will be on your car
I don't know the economics of specific subway stations and lines. Obviously, your logic has been employed in certain places, such as the weekend closure of Fulton/Broad on the J, and the late night closure of 145/148 on the 3. We could do more of that, although Larry Littlefield says the subway is self-supporting, so perhaps that's not the problem.
Do we really want each station evaluated on a for-profit basis? If the U.S. Postal Service charged what it really costs to deliver a letter, postage from NYC to rural Alaska would be a lot higher than postage from TriBeCa to NoLiTa. But we've made a public policy decision not to operate that way, and changing it could have surprising implications.
The real money losers are the dozens of routes that never really have full buses except for an hour at each rush hour. They run all day long at 2 or 3 times per hour with a handful of people. They feed subway routes but hardly ever duplicate them. They perform a valuable service: the people who do use them would be stranded without them. But they are expensive.
Example: I've used the M8 (8th/9th St crosstown) dozens of times. It's very convenient, often has older people who would have trouble walking north to the L train and handling the steps there, and also saves time relative to walking to the L, taking the L crosstown, and walking back downtown. But I've NEVER had to stand on it, not once in dozens of trips.
Should the M8 be cut back severely? If truly necessary, yes. But it would have a real impact on the quality of a lot of people's lives. And a cutback wouldn't increase subway usage.
I've only done this with Brooklyn, but in Brooklyn the heavily traveled routes are those that either feed the subway from areas beyond it (B41, B46) or run crosstown (B35, B6). Those that duplicate the subway carry fewer riders.
Some feeders carry less riders because they only serve a short run and a small area (B77). They cost less for the same reason -- very few buses required. Costing it out, I'll bet they do OK.
I'm talking about the B25, which runs right over the A, and the B75, which runs right over the F. The city could allow private vans and car services to serve those routes, for those willing to pay. But why put a subsidized bus there, when people could nearly as easily use the subway by walking a couple of extra blocks?
Remember, most of the cost of the subway have nothing to do with the trains -- MOW, stations, shops and yards, etc. Those are fixed. Add a few trains and you are better off than adding a few buses.
Fare sales at all stations is not needed and would reduce the cost of allowing a train to stop and drop off passengers. Fares are not sold on buses. Why is this need to have the right to buy a fare at each fare control atr all times. closing the booths especially at night is just good economic sense. Security and human preseence could be provided in a more effecient economical way
MVM fare sales is a good middle ground
Shorter trains that reduce labor cost is a good middle ground and has the bennifit of allowing more frequent service at a lower cost then the current service. Atomatic train control would allow even shorter ZPTC to improve the econmics even more.
ZPTC does not have to meen crew less trains. Just as with the fare controls presense would be provided by cctv, police patrols both uniform and undercover. Most trains after midnight already have one office on the train at most times. With the shorter trains it is more likely the officer is in your car
this does not reduce rider safety beccause 75ft cars already have zero train crew presewnse.
As for the USPS, residential mail delivery should be cut back from 6 days a week to 4 days a week. The need for 6 day a week residential service is just not there and it cost a ton. USPS could cut 15% of it's workforce.
Except for junk mail and some paper bills, the majority of mail delivered is JUNK MAIL.
More and more people are moving to paperless bills viewablle online. Out of the 10 bills each month I recieve 9 of them paperless.
Another point is that the current service patter of long headways and full length trains also makes transfering difficult and tedius.
Thus if broadway local staion in the wall street area were closed at night and lex local stations one block away were open. With the current service patterns, it would be a tremdous burden for a rider traveling from bay ridge to lower manhattan due to the long wait to transfer
If the train scame more frequently such a transfer would not be as much of a problem
[the subway is self-supporting]
The subway may be self-supporting as a whole, but some parts of it may be wasteful.
[Do we really want each station evaluated on a for-profit basis?]
I would like to evaluate each station in terms of its costs and benefits, and not just monetary costs and benefits. For instance some little-used stations save time to their users but they waste more time to greater number of riders who stay on board. Those stations are net time-wasters, and closing them would speed up the subway and save money.
The area around the station should be looked at as to see how can one better develope that area to incease ridership. If the infrastructure is there we might as well exploit it.
Station operatins need to be evaluated to as to whether a tooken booth clerk is needed 24/7. At most stations a clerk is not needed to sell fares. Those postions should be eliminated
The Lexington Ave bus is always crowded, with people going short distances so you get good turnover. In fact, I've never seen an avenue bus route in manhattan that doesn't get very heavy usage.
Uhhh, this is no option IMO. I will never take a "dollar van". Anywhere. Unregulated, ad hoc, unaccountable in lieu of accident and injuries....nope. I ain't gettin' on them. I see the way they handle themselves at Kings Plaza and in Jamaica. Taking an MTA service is equivalent to driving with insurance.
Not only does the city not inforce the law in terms of illgally picking up riders on the street, but the NYPD does not constantly enforce the traffic laws that these vans consistantly break.
A van flew past two cars at a stop sign at 53rd place(near radio shack) at 40 MPH not even looking for traffic.
Another van blocked the bus lanes in front og KP parking perpedicular(yes at a 90 degree angle) to the side walk. Still another hooked a U turn in the middle of flatbush ave between r and filmore.
The NYPD could easily remove 2/3 of these vans who do not follow the law y just enforcing existing traffic laws. Part of the problrm is the antiquated way the NYPD rights tickets and checks for warrents which takes sometimes as much as 10 in to issue a ticket.
Leaglly regulated, properly operated vans could fill the gap if there is indead demand for such a service. The need is not there as manahattan residents have the option of taking a cab. Although resticting the vans to operate on one ave, and a lower fare of say $3 would get some people to use such a service. My only concern is all of a sudden some lawyer will come up with a way to demand a subsidy
Why did the private bus lines in manahattan fail? Were they free to set thier own fare. Would they have failed if their crosstown routes could have allowed subway transfers?
Mark
All stations along the line must be ADA complient to make it easy for seniors and the disabled to use the service.
If you look at it from a finacial prespective, the costs to install elevators and other equiptment would pay for itself rather quickly if duplicate bus service was eliminated.
If private operators want to opererate bus service it should NOT BE SUBSIDIESED. Some People would choose to use such as service. In the end capitolistic forces would fid away to deliver the service for thise who refuse to use the subway at a reasoanable price. Far cheaper then what NYCT could deliver the service.
Most duplicate routes could be eliminated. Proper subway to bus transfer improvemnts, ADA complience etc would make the impact on the public minimal.
Running shorter trains during no rush hours thus reducing headway would make the train service quicker and more reliable then the bus service in most cases
The subways in manhattan were built to take public transportation off the crowed streets. The privates saw an opurtunity to take thier part. The city should have let all route fold except those where their was no subway
To make just ONE station ADA compliant typically costs $10's of millions. Due to the complexity of such projects, it takes several years from design to completion. A typical basic station requires at least four elevators (street to mezzanine, mezzanine to platform, on both sides). The ADA compliance project at a more complex station, such as Columbus Circle, will require at least 7 elevators.
So, do the math, and figure out what it will take (in dollars and years) to make an entire line ADA compliant. Of course, there are other problems with this idea. On many lines, the stations are much farther apart than the bus stops, so even with ADA compliance the services are not identical.
Given the complexity of such projects and the funds available, I wouldn't say the MTA has done a bad job. It will be many decades before the whole system is ADA compliant.
The MTA should have thier own in house elevator installion and mainatace personel. that will reduce costs and contractor issue
n
David
Once again I rather the working Joe be paid a bit more then the money going into a contractors pocket
Repair of existing equipment and removal of old equipment/installation of new equipment are not the same thing.
David
I see no evidence that there is money to be saved on those bus routes. Have you ever ridden a bus on a line that parallels subway service and found it to be relatively empty? Maybe in the outer boroughs. I've never seen it in Manhattan.
The Bx 1/2 and 4 buses in the Bronx are heavily used, and at least 85% of the line's route runs above or below a subway line. Empty buses on the Grand Concourse are a rarity, unless you are at East 138th st, the start of both routes.
Id their capasit on the subway line below them? If thier is then the line is not absolutly needed.
THe MTA would be better off spending money to make the subway stations easier to get up to or down to then to operate the duplicate bus service. why should we subsidise both
In the case of the bronz, I can not attest to whether the bus lines are justified or not. In manahttan the issue is cut and dry.
I know of a few bus lines in brooklyn that run under or above a subway line for part of thier route but the line is mearly passing through going to and from other place where the subway does not go
The cureent bus riders would use the subway instead. Elimianted the north south subway to bus loophole and ridership will reduce bus 10%
As for the MTA doing a bad job of upgradig its infrastructure, if monies were properly steared to upgrade stations along these lines to be in ada complient, we could have a serious discussion about eliminating these bus lines
Bronx:
Bx 1/2 (D line)
4 (portions on 2 and 6 elevated lines)
32 (4 line)
Manhattan]
M 14 runs between 1st ave and Alphabet City only.
M42 between 8th Ave and Javits Center
M101, 102, 103 (IRT East side)
M10 (IND 6th/8th Ave Lines)
M104, entire route
Brooklyn:
B25 (Do I have to tell you what subway line runs underneath Fulton St?)
B37, B63 (see other posts on this thread)
B60 (nearby L train from Montrose Ave to Rockaway Parkway)
B61 (within 3/4 mile of all G line stations from Queens Plaza to Smith-9th)
B48 is eliminated south of Fulton St because of the FA Shuttle.
B68 (Brighton Line is 4 blocks away, or across Prospect Park)
Q24, Q56 (Jamaica Ave el.)
Queens:
Q32 runs only between 82nd st/Roosevelt IRT station and Northern Blvd
Q102 running from Queens Plaza to 30th Ave is eliminated, also Q19A and Q101/Steinway only (W line is only 8 blocks away at 31st st).
Even the S79 in Staten Island is hit because it runs close to the SIR.
This will not make it around the corner.
I've used the Q32 on occasion when I had to make a quick trip into Manhattan from Queens Plaza. It's as slow as a turtle anyway. Crosstown on 32 St I was easily able to keep pace with it walking one time when I missed it. It's nice for a round trip as a subway to bus transfer but only if one has plenty of time for the bus end of it. I guess it does qualify as redundant and I have wondered why they would offer a service that the subway puts to shame.
In the case of manhattan alternates bus lines are available from within a block or two walk.
That's a very kind sentiment.
It is NOT compatible with shutting down bus lines like the Lex, even after the SAS is built. I can give you dozens of real examples of bus trips taken by the infirm that would require an extra 6 blocks of walking even if you took the SAS or Lex and TWO crosstown buses.
The Purpose of public transit is not to provide door to door service to every location every place. Cabs are the means to go those places. Also the MTA is paying large sums of money to provide door to door service to the elderly and disabled(many elderly quilify as disabled)
What should manahatan rsidents have a better level of service then residents in other areas. I can point out hundreds of examples in the outer bouroughs where it is difficicult to get from point a to point B by public transit
A line in the sand need to be draw. Proper unpolitical analysis needs to be done.
Because it has a higher density and therefore those services can be provided with less or no subsidy. The same reason the outer boroughs have better transportation services than the suburbs and the suburbs have better transportation than rural areas.
If Manhattan as a whole had a transportation budget, I am convinced it would have a positive bottom line. It's the outer boroughs where the expenses exceed the costs.
Manhattan is willing to subsidze the outer boroughs, but it expects better, though far less subsidized, services as a result.
Manahttan residents could be served better by a realocation of transit dollars
It's more like a few areas. Let's not kid ourselves. Counting the comercial development, manhattan is probably the densest populated area in the U.S.
Eliminating bus routes is a drastic measure that should not be done before a good deal of study and analysis. It is a pipe dream at this point anyway with most stations not able to accomadate the disabled and the elderly with all those steps
the better way to go is to try to make the cost of operating such routes as cost effective as possible.
Attempt to use new technologies such as hybrid drive engines, GPS assited bus moitoring and tracking, Bus rapid transit technologies that give an aproaching bus the chance to make it through an intersection by delaying the light from turning red a few extra secounds and articulated buses where practical.
Eliminating the north south bus transfer loophole will help reduce crowding.
Bus riding in manhattan is not a fun experience. Especially any bus that crosses a major avenue south of 96th street. Not quite sure why anyone would want to take a bus unless it is absolutely needed.
Which subway station, ADA-compliant or otherwise, is within a "block or two walk" of 83rd and Riverside? (The M5 stops at 83rd and Riverside.)
I count three blocks up Riverside, one very long block to West End, and one moderately long block to Broadway. Is there a closer subway station that I'm not aware of?
I did not create this thread and I don't agree with 90% of the assertions of the thread creator. read the first in thread.
Bus lines that serve areas where train service does not exist should be kept. The service should focus on serving avenue more then a two block walk of the nearest train line and as feeder services to train lines. Most of the current bus lines are just he carbon copy of the service the private operators ran to compeat with the subways. Some of them are not needed. Most of them are.
In the case of the lex ave bus if sas is built, that would be a dupicate service in some places. Why not use some of that money to provided better service in areas where the train is far.
That is all I am suggesting. I did not attempt in any way to say that I have the answers as to which line should stay, which line should be modified or which line should go. My original post on this thread suggestes that the issue needs to be looked at seriously and hard choices need to be made.
Agreed. There may be some underutilized bus lines in the outer boroughs that parallel subways, but there's no big money here. There's definitely no money in Manhattan, where the bus lines paralleling the subways are very heavily used and not big money losers.
They are not big mony losers?
If the option of the bus were eliminated those riders would ride the subway, thus improving the economy of scale and thus lowering total overall operating costs. If you can't see that this is a big savings then i don't know what planet you live on. Many riders on these bus lines take the train south and the bus north taking advntage of a loophole in the system. Remove the loophole and ridership will decline drematically. In the past many bus riders also took the bus because prior to metrocard, transfer to east west bus from the train costed two fares.
The subways were built to remove traffic off the surface. the entire volume of passengers on all north south bus routes that parrael subway lines could be handles rather easily.
Besides the cost of operating the duplicate north south bus lines, there is the economic cost of the extra traffic and lost economic activity on the surface buses cause.
Of course there is a large obstivle and cost to upgrade each subway station for ADA complience. those costs would easily be recovered in a rather short period of time. The ADA upgrades are needed anyway, the mta instead of it current hodgepog aproach shoul upgrade based on a line by line basis
Of course the cross town would not be effected.
HTe majority of the north south route such as ones that mirror the subway on broadway if they were eliminated tommorrow, the riders would just use the subway instead.
Of course this aasumes that all stations along the line are ADA complent to allow easy access to seniors and the disabled.
Eliminate the south on the subway and north on the bus loophole and you would see a large drop off in ridership. this could bee done.
Bus is more convenient for various reasons: stops closer together, on streets where there is no subway, and are ADA compliant. True, my 3rd point could be taken care of, but what about the first 2?
The subway stop spacing is close enought to walk to in between locations.
If the slower service was not costing me money in higher fare and tac subsisfies. Go for it.
So, what would be more fair to eliminate? The Bus that runs above a subway line for 85% of it's route (but is crowded) or the bus that runs on it's own path (but is empty). I don't see a reason to take away a service that's used.
I agree with you on this one, if it is used to begin with, why get rid of it and cause problems. Why get rid of something if the chance is that there is no viable replacement? Then folks would have to spend MORE money to travel, which doesn't make sense.
The most logical thing to do is to elliminate the north south bus to train trabsfer loophole
The people who use this loophole both are phsyically able to take the train and are costing the MTA revenue. Just the same as bus to bus transfers have certain restrictions. this will allow the bus service to be less crowded.
The bus that runs 85% above a subway line is a huge waste of money. I don't care how many bleedng heart stories you give. Unless the train line below is over capasity. The answer which will never happen is to cahrge more for such buses.
I am not saying that this should be done, but if you totally elininated the bus, within a few years, nobody would see a reason for such a bus running 85% of it's route above a subway line.
This bus no matter how full, is a money looser.
Some peole on this board make it seem like public transit is the only way to get somewhere and if the subways had elevators, that 805 of the elderly and disabled would still not use the subway if measures were taken to make it easier for them to use.
The elderly which have varing abilities depending on age are very stuborn about thier independance. My dad is in his early 70's and takes the subway all the time. He is begining to have some troble with the steps. IF the issue of climbing steps was not an issue due to ADA complience, taking the subway vs taking the bus is a non issue.
As for the issue of walking extra blocks to thier destination. The current bus system does not cover every block, evry side block etc. Just as those who have trouble walking do now, they go where they are able to go. In this city where all of life's essentials are no more then a few blocks away this is not a majore hardship.
People make decisions such as choosing thier doctor based on acess. Those services as they do no try to be close to where people who use them can get to. Doctors who are businessman will move closer to where thier patients are
For those rare occasions where public transit is not convient, people now take cabs or access a ride. Nothing will change
Of course if you provide the service and the option people will make the option that is easiest for them. that does not mean that providing the duplicate service is needed. Those are two separate issues.
Take metrocard for example. Meterocard usage was no-existant prior to the free bus to train transfer and free rider at $15 offer. Many people would simply buy one or two tokens at at time causing the MTA to staff tooken booths far more. Based on your arguments, since the booths were heavily used, that would justify them being needed.
Make a change by providing an improved produt(the free ride and bus to train treansfer) and all of a sudden people fare buying habits change.
THe same thing would happen if the duplicate lines who run 85% above a subway line were scaled back, eliminated or were charged a premium fare AND ALL SUBWAY STATIONS ALONG THE LINE WERE ADA COMPLIENT THAT FEATURES THAT REMOVE OBSTICLES FOR SENIORS AND THE DISABLED.
I seem to remember hoopla that the elderly would not use metrocard. The MTA added elderly friendly feaures such as auto refilling subsription metrocard, metrocard bus etc.
Lets not forget that their is a large number of able bodied seniors who refuse to ride the subway because thier last memorries f the subway were the terrible hot and sticky, broken down dirty subway of the 70's 80's and early 90's. My mother is one of them. She has not been on the subway in two decades and swears to never ride again
Now if 3 Av could become 2 way again the Bx55 could start from 86th Street to Gun Hill Road being almost like the 3 Av el and giving extra service back to the Bronx
Currently the Lex Bus is needed due to Lex overcrowding. Lex overcrowding will not be an issue once secound ave subway is open.
The NIMBY you are taling about is the straphangers campaign who is a part of NIPIRG who are opposed to any changes. Straphangers and NYPIRG are experts in creating alarm and outrage in commuities through the use of misleading inuendo's often not backed up by a single fact.
The staion booth closing issues is a prime example. Another iisue is the whole roll back the fare hile issue.
Sometimes the experts need to make the tough decisions. Secound ave subway will be fully ada compient.
----
The NIMBY you are taling about is the straphangers campaign who is a part of NIPIRG who are opposed to any changes. Straphangers and NYPIRG are experts in creating alarm and outrage in commuities through the use of misleading inuendo's often not backed up by a single fact.
----
The NIMBY that I am referring to is the NIMBY that doesn't want any new els built, which would save the city LOTS of money.
The Lex bus does nothing worth mentioning to relieve Lex subway overcrowding. You could fit all the Lex bus passengers into 1 additional local train per hour, which could be deployed if desired.
The Lex bus is needed because it serves a different market of people who are not well served by the Lex subway. Try going from 36th and Lex to 11th St and 3rd Ave by subway; it's over half a mile of walking, while it's no walking by bus.
This notion that a bus rider and a subeay rider are two differnt consumers is not true. If all stations were ada complinet, the difference between the two riding groups are eliminated
If the secound ave subway was up and running, the rider would be better served by the secound ave subeway and one of the crosstown subeway lines or buses
I'd like to see the math that shows "easily...recovered in a rather short period of time." Just upgrading ONE station costs $10's of millions. Now, figure out what it takes to upgrade an entire line.
Yes, the ADA upgrades are needed anyway, and eventually we'll have them, but they have to compete with scarce capital dollars that are decked against other needed improvements. No one yet has shown that they pay for themselves, in terms of bus service that could be dropped in lieu of subway service.
One of the reasons that NYC is the most taxed place int he country is all the duplicate services that exists. It is a no brainer, build a better alternative(secound ave subway) eliminate the less effective service, the surface bus line. Anyone ever wonder why NYC has so little manufacturing, private sector jobs only exist becasue they HAVE TO BE HERE TO ATTRACT TALLENT. It is all the uneeded costs
Only in new york, build a better alternative, keep the old option
Another example is the roosevelt island tram. Why in the world did the MTA waste a ton of money to build a subway station if the tram was to stay. Make the right decision, close the tram or remove costs at the station such as the tooken booths. Riders could buy thier fare at the tram station, a local store or at the other end of thire ride
The RI tram is not an MTA facility. They have no authority to close it. If they were in charge of it, they would have closed it.
RI operating authority is a state agency. I was using RI tram as an example of how some groups don;t want any transit route or in this case tram to close whether duplicate or not and no matter the cost to the taxpayers or riding public
Ther people who live on RI have to pay higher taxes to keep the tram operating.
What about the B25 via Fulton, the A/C runs basically the entire length of the 25 but has strong ridership so would it be a good idea to let the trains replace it, I think not.
The example you give is one where the subways are already over-crowded, so the buses should not be eliminated. The issue is why provide a subsidized, duplicate service when and where the subways are NOT filled?
(Sorry but the whole premise is faulty. Buses and subways have different types of riders. More than half of the bus riders will resort to taking cabs. And all of the sudden you'll see the introduction of the illegal dollar vans in midtown!!! Vacuums must be filled!!!)
Again, we are not talking about Midtown, we are talking about trips within Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx in Northern Manhattan. There is plenty of capacity there, as long as people get off before going to Manhattan.
The government loses money on every bus ride, and there is only so much subsidy money to go around. Money used to subsidize bus lines paralell to the subway within 1/2 mile could also be used to improve the subway, or to provided more frequent bus service in locations the subway does not serve (ie. cross-town). If half the people switched the subway, the subway would carry more riders without more stations, track or sometimes even trains. If the other half refused to use the subway and used private vans along the now abandoned routes, that wouldn't cost the city any money either -- it would still be available for more bus service elsewhere or to improve the subway.
What do you suspect would become of Manhattan if bus routes M1/2/3/4/6/7/10/14/20/100/101/102/103/104 were canceled…? All of these run parallel to subway routes, but is everyone running downstairs to catch the train? I suspect not.
Even getting rid of the Q60 just because the 7 train runs along its route through Sunnyside and the E/F joins its route further east…? Or how about the Q32, which runs parallel to the 7 train for the vast majority of its Queens routing?
Come on…the MTA has just proven that they’re concealing profits in order to get a fare raise and more subsidy, why put more money into their pocket.
The MTA did not concel profits. The so called $600 in concealed profits were not operating profits and were clearly on all finacial statements. The money was proceeds for issueing new debt to pay off old debt. THe money was used to further pay doen debt due this year and next year
Some of the bus routes would remian. Many of the people would choose to use the subway.
Sure people will choose the subway over the bus but if you tried to eliminate that, people would get so angry and resort to other methods of public transportation. Also, if it is a route like the B25 for example. If you eliminated it, folks would use cabs or the dollar vans would jump right on it and create a new service via Fulton, getting extra money form what the MTA could of made. Another example is the Bx1/2, eliminate those and the B/D would be dangerously overcrowded.
Why, on three-track elevated lines, does the third (not the center) track always have a wood covering on the 3rd rail, while the other two always have plastic coverings? Is there any difference between the two?
The New York Central was using fiberglass covers on their third rail back in the late 1960's, before the merger with the PRR!!!!
Today I was driving north on Whitehorse Rd and passed a yellow Isuzu Vehi-Cross with PA plates reading "Flivver." The man driving it appeared to be of roughly middle age, and I know I've heard Flivver talked about in relation to the early subway cars. Could there be any relation between the Subway car and the license plate I saw?
That's not quite correct. The 1915 Steinway motors were the first
IRT cars with low-voltage control, although that was a fairly
small number of cars. The Flivvers had already been ordered and
were anticipated as high-voltage cars. It is possible (records
are not clear on this point) that the Flivvers were in fact
operated briefly as standard Hi-Vs. They certainly had the C18C
Hi-V style master controller and ME-21 brake valve. Testing of
the low-voltage equipment on the Steinways was successful, and
the IRT decided to either retrofit the Flivvers (assuming they
already had Type M hi-v control groups installed) or equipped those
that had not yet received groups with the new low-voltage groups.
The IRT, like many companies at the time, installed the
electrical equipment themselves.
Also, it should be pointed out that the BMT had a low-voltage subway
car in 1914 (the 67' steels). If you're willing to stretch a bit,
the BRT had low-voltage subway equipment as early as 1908 (?? when
did the Essex St. station open?) as all of the wooden elevated
cars had Westinghouse low-voltage control since ca 1900.
Jeff H: So the BRT El cars were converted to low-voltage around 1908?
Thats very interesting because the IRT Gate cars remained as high-voltage throughout there lives. Most of the MUDC conversions but a small number (100 +/-) were converted to low-voltage operation during the rebuilding.
Were any change made to the actual motorman's controls when the BRT Gates were converted to low-voltage that would be visible to a layman. I know that there are several examples of BRT equiptment at
Branford and that your quite familier with them.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
All of the BRT gate cars used Westinghouse control starting
about 1899, and it was always low-voltage. Some of the cars
in the 1898 pilot program had Sprague - GE MU control which
was high-voltage. These were changed in the early 00's to
be compatible with the rest of the fleet.
An innovative design that sank like a stone in the marketplace. What might have limited its appeal was the fact that the roofline was so low that entry and exit was very difficult for most people (I sat in one at a dealership once, so I know about this). Rear visibility also was very poor, so bad that some models sold in Japan actually had a CCTV system with a rear-facing camera and a screen on the dashboard.
#3 West End Jeff
1. Why do some M1/M3 cars still have a blue stripe on the side?
2. What M1 cars have left for scrap, or how many have left, and are they going to Mexico to be cut up?
3. How is it that the ACMU-1100 cars are still around after 47 years (and the BUDD M1s are being retired after only 30-32?
Thanks in advance for the answers.
2-No car has left Hillside yet, there is a long track that i pass every morning, that seems to get longer and longer by the week of junk M-1s on flatbeds waiting to go
3-The budds suck balls, thats why
WHAT?! The Budds in the NYC Subway (the R32 cars) are the best thing on the letter lines, aside from the new L trains. They are not rusting at all, and those cars are from 1964-5.
Peace,
ANDEE
R-32
Pick a railroad, 'cuz there's a difference here.
The LIRR got rid of most of the blue since they've got no paint shop. Some blue stripes are still on the sides of cars. There's at least one car (pair?) with a blue stripe on the front, where most cars now have that goofy safety yellow.
Metro-North hung on to the stripe, but even they have that new zebra scheme now.
Mark
CG
I hated it when I first saw it, but it's really grown on me since then.
Mark
I don't recallt hem ever being 5600 series....
There were 4500's (4500-4599)...built in the very early 1950's, had larger windows and single large headlamps.
Then there were 4600-4623 and 4700-4723 built in the very early 1960's, not sure if those are still around.
And then there was the 4730-up bunch built in 1965....which I am assumeing to be the ones that became the 1100's.
But I don't ever remember any 5600 series cars.
Both 4600 and 4700 series units are in service as there are 87 or so ACMU 1100's listed on the MNRR Roster
WNYC - Designing The High LIne
~Schist
(formerly known as 'wayne')
--Mark
So I'm guessing once the ROW is converted, it becomes city property, right?
It would fit in well with the Olympic transportation plan, and provide better transportation to an area that really needs it.
I have no doubt it would be difficult to get done for financial, political, and NIMBY issues--but is it technically feasable? It is a little neglected, could it handle subway traffic?
The 7's plans of being extended to the West Side are up at the MTA's website and outline no such possiblity. In other words, this proposal isn't even being considered.
The main problem is that the High Line is only 30-feet wide in most places. That's not wide enough to accommodate tracks plus platforms, so there'd have to be condemnation of property to construct the stations. It's fashionable to put community opposition under the head of "NIMBY," but sometimes that's the right answer. New York does not need an elevated line along the west side.
The proposed use of the High Line as a new pedestrian corridor is more practical. If the #7 is further extended, it should remain underground.
all in favor?
Some rail purists might not think that's such a great thing. It's kind of like an identity crisis. The LIRR is trying to reconcile running a subway against being a railroad.
The Babylon and Port Washington lines especially would probably benefit from being managed more like rapid transit.
I am a student with a monthly to zone 7 and lots of free time and a camera, I want to finish the LIRR section
Good luck!
Mark
I used to commute from Bay Shore into LIC in the mid-1960's!! I actually lived in Brightwaters at the time.
Trust me, the Redbirds will still be down there when you get back.
Reason I ask is because I purchased a RETAILER MetroCard today
(wrapper intact) WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A FUN PASS DATED APRIL 4TH.
Yep.... An APRIL 4TH FUN PASS sealed fresh in a $10 MTA MC Wrapper.
ARE THE WRAPPED CARDS CLEANED OR SANITIZED IN ANY WAY???
For all we know WE (you or I) could be swiping with the very card
which could have been in Greenberger's back pocket just the week before
last.... or something TEN times worse...
ARE THE CARDS CLEANED OR DE-SANITIZED IN ANY WAY (if in fact they
are REFURBISHED/REPROGRAMMED and Re-Sold??)
Better Yet.......... HOW DA $#^#$ DID I WIND UP GETTING AN APRIL 4TH
FUN PASS CARD IN A FRESH MINT MTA $10 (supposed) WRAPPER???
1SF9
I MISS TOKENS!!
TOKENS SWEET TOKENS
Something sounds very fishy about that and I don't think the MTA had anything to do with it either.
SERIOUS!
--Mark
Where do you think the tokens were hanging out before you bought them? All sorts of places! And the Y-cuts in the old tokens were a great place to accumulate unsanitary grime.
Yeah, just think, the person before you could have fished the token out of the urinal at the old Coney Island men's room. I guess that goes for money too. Who knows where it's been before we get it. I think slimy Metrocards are probably the least of our problems.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL... yep' nothing like SubTALK in the morning.. :)
---Choo Choo
For now, the card is off to 370 Jay St. in the provided mailer with
incident report including FULL seller address and contact info...
I'm considering a follow-up phone call to MTA MC Services in lieu to
the issue/unless they ring me first..
Thanks to all.... I'll report any outcome.
Being a fan of TOKENS, this REALLY makes me wanna go back... hehehe.
Thanks again!
1SF9
to be continued...
-Stef
http://www.purell.com/
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I've been a member of ERA for more years than I can count; and the New York Division since I learned that it wasn't restricted to New York area residents. I'm also a member of the Metropolitan Museum (are you listening, Pigs?), but that's off topic.
The chick that sang "Poetry Man" is still around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, and if you do not know what the Phoebe Snow Society is, you are probably not interested in it.
Tom
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-20-03_LIRR_TRIP/
And thanks again to fellow SubTalker Bill Palter for the web space.
Included are pics of LIRR towers BROOK, DUNTON, JAY and QUEENS. The photos intitled BROOK, LIRR Tunnel Rats and LIRR Bender's Wisdom is what got me swarmed. Also included are make sharp and crips images of various LIRR rolling stock including DM-30's, M-7's, C-3's and MP-15's. If you don't believe me here are two teasers.
If you enjoyed these please click on the link and browse the rest. As always I always appriciate feedback or questions. These are lot all the pics, just the most interesting ones, if you want to see more tell me what you need and I'll see if I have it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If that's the case, then they go out every day during the AM and PM rush to sit just outside the tunnels to Penn in case something breaks down in the tunnel and needs to be pulled out.
Great photos JM. It's the first photo I've seen of "Boland's Landing" -- that's the employee only station in the 102/104/Dunton picture.
CG
Direct A service operates from Manhattan and Brooklyn to Far Rockaway, with passengers for Rockaway Park having to make a connection to the shuttle service at Broad Channel. Why is this the case? Why doesn't a reverse arrangement apply, with A service running directly to Rockaway Park at all times, with the shuttle operating from Broad Channel to Far Rockaway? I doubt it is due to terminal arrangement as a small number of peak hour trains run direct from Rockaway Park to Manhattan. Is it due to population density at Rockaway Park not justifying a direct service?
Thanks in advance.
Yes. The combined ridership of all the Rockaway Park stations is consdierably lower than that of any other line. My guess is Metropolitan Ave is next (which is why they only get a shuttle on weekends), then (in roughly this order) Dyre, Lefferts, Far Rockaway, and Sea Beach.
Other should be able to post precise numbers from paper documents.
The problem is that the A is not the best line to Manhattan, due to its winding route through Brooklyn, and long running times. Generally, the rule is this:
For downtown, use the Q35 (although most people use this as opposed to the other two)
For Peak Midtown, use the QM16. However, the service on this line is very scarse.
For other times, use the Q53 to woodside, then take the 7 or LIRR (most conductors dont even bother taking tickets at Woodside)
I think I should know this one (look at my handle)
Hmmm...I wonder which line has less ridership-Sea Beach or Rockaway Park?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, except when they're actually stuck in those delays, when all I hear is, "F@!#$ MTA, and they want to charge $2 for this s&!%#..."
---Choo Choo
Any MYSTICAL Women in there???
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
The R-62's are slightly better off -- the windows across from the cabs can still be opened and the storm doors can be latched open on all cars.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
I tried this last year and made the "mistake" of using my real name, and never got any reply after I reported a hot car. But Bloomy did and got immediate results (and press, too, IIRC)
--Mark
---Choo Choo
David
(I don't know. I've never tried it.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I deliberately did not report it since I didn't want the car to be permanently removed from service.
I guess Mike Bloomberg rides the 7 on occasion, since the car has been removed from service.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/57506.htm
1-FARE RIDERS ARE OUT OF LUCK
By CLEMENTE LISI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'JACKPOT'
A woman buys a single-ride MetroCard at the Bergen Street station in Brooklyn yesterday before the machine ran out, as is happening all over town.
Rick Dembow
May 9, 2003 -- Straphangers looking to buy single-trip MetroCards are being derailed because vending machines are quickly running out of the cards and tokens are no longer sold, The Post has learned.
Even since the fare went up to two dollars on Sunday, single-ride cards cannot be bought at manned station booths, so riders are being forced to buy higher-value cards from Transit Authority clerks.
In addition to single-ride cards, sales of $7 one-day Fun Passes are also restricted to MetroCard machines.
"There's a lot of activity at the machines, but people are not getting what they want," said a source.
The TA said it has sold an average of 90,000 single-ride cards a day since Sunday, up from 25,000 a day before the fare hike and before tokens were taken out of circulation.
Single-day cards are good for two hours after they are purchased.
The TA said single-ride cards account for a tiny fraction of overall sales and that this may be a "temporary problem."
"People are in the process of modifying their buying habits," said TA spokesman Charles Seaton. "We are trying to get the message out that multiday fares are a better bargain."
Another factor forcing riders to buy pricier cards is that station clerks have been ordered not to make change for straphangers with twenty-dollar bills who want to buy single rides at the machines.
"The riders are getting angry at the clerks for this and that's not fair," said John Mooney, a station agent. "We should be allowed to give customers what they want."
Meanwhile, the battle over whether to roll back the fare hike will be in court today when the Straphangers Campaign and the MTA face-off at a preliminary-injunction hearing.
Manhattan State Supreme Court Judge Louis York will explain he was unaware his wife made a $250 contribution last year to State Sen. Eric Schneiderman, a lawyer representing the watchdog group. The Post reported yesterday that Judith Bader-York had cut Schneiderman (D-Manhattan) a check during his successful re-election bid.
The Straphangers Campaign will argue the MTA misled the public with inaccurate information on agency finances before holding hearings on the increase.
Additional reporting by Marianne Garvey
---Choo Choo
One the aper is cheaoer
Two the paper cards come on a roll and can store more of them in a machine. The roll looks like a big roll of toliet paper.
The problem is that NYCT does not have a proper maintance schedule.
These machines should be taling to a central computer somewhere which could analyse the machines usage statistics and desing an apropiate maintance and refill schedule
The machines should be designed so that items such as adding metrocard feed stock, reciepts etc could be done withourt the need for an armed guares. In essense hte money portions of the machine be locked behind a secound door so that they basics could be added without the possiblilty that the machines money stores can be attacked
Soda and candy vending machines have been this way for years. So, I don't see what the problem is. If they did this then S/As could refill the MVMs. I don't know why they aren't already refilling the MEMs, since there is no cash in them.
Peace,
ANDEE
You write as long winded as he does.
I'm not defending it, just explaining why it works the way it does.
It is a bit rediculous to want to close booths and then don't make every effort to win the public over with keeping the machines filled with wah they need to serve the public
After all the MVM's ahve been deployed system wide for over 2 years and still they don't seem to know how to keep them filled
As you well know, usage patterns have changed dramatically in the past week. There weren't problems with the existing refill schedule under the old usage patterns. The refill schedule will need to be altered; I'm sure that they have made some adjustments in the refill schedule in anticipation of the pattern change, and I'm equally sure from what you are observing that the patterns will need further adjustment. Predicting human behavior is an inexact science at best, and obviously genus straphangerus newyorkus isn't behaving as predicted; not having single ride tickets as readily available, though, may result in conditioning the behavior of straphangerus newyorkus to use the more cost-effective multi-ride metrocards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
1)MVM refill schedules have not been sufficent. I have seen many MVM's out of one or two critical items such as change, bills hopper filled, single ride cards for 6 or more hours in a row. This has occured the past 3 weekends at herald square 34th street east entrance(an unmanned fare control most of the day). On 3 occasions prior to the fare increase, the MVM at 95th street on the R in Bay Ridge was lacking one or more item.
This has been occuring for the past year as more riders choose to use the faster, more flexible MVM's
2)Tookens have not been sold to riders for over 3 weeks now. Plenty of time for the mTA to collect the statistics from all it's MVM's, run it through a business intrligence package such as COgnos or Business Objests and come up with usage patterns
Can behavior trends of consumers be predicted to a fairly resonable degree over time. The answer is a resonding yes. The operations specialsts should have known there would be and increased demand at MVM's for single ride cards once the tooken was eliminated. They should have already known how many tookens are sold at each station at each part of the day and overprepared for the onsluaght until more data can be collected and better refill schedules prepared.
A reasonable estimate would be that 70% of all token sales are single ride sales.
The MTA is in the process of upgrading it;s communications netwrk to allow th e MVM's to report back to the central server it's cureent satistics and stats in real time. I have learned from a repitable source that this is not curreently deployed system wide hense the poor refill schedules and long times many MVM's are out of service.
In MVM should never be out of one or more items for more then an hour in any given day plus at leaste one MVM should always have all items available. This is a goal that could be achieved by the proper analisis of usage patterns. THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE BEOFRE ALL BOOTHS ARE PERMINATLY CLOSED and also to gain the publics trust
If you would listen to the TWU and the straphangers campaigh you would think the majority of the public prepfers to use a token booth. The opposit is true, most prefer the MVM's but are the MTA inablility to keep properly stocked is a major issue
I'd like to see some evidence for this--it does not sound plausible. Most riders in the system are regulars, and regulars generally do not purchase their rides one at a time, because: A) It's a pain to go to a machine on every visit to the subway; and B) Even the most dimwitted rider will quickly figure out that it's worth a $10 investment to get the 20% discount.
As to the small percentage of total rides that were paid by tooken, 70% is a good guestimate as to those who purchaces only one one ride. That number plus the current single ride sales number for a particular fare control is a good esimate of the total number of single riders per hour and per day at a particular fare control. Until more accurate numbers are obtained and a precise trend can be established the MTA should have made sure at least 120% of the above caluclated figure of single ride cards were available at the MVM. 129% because you need to calculate that there wil not be even distribultion of riders purcahasing single rides at each MVM in a particular fare control
the other 30% of tooken sales came from those regualar riders who refused to use metrocard. Those Regualr subway riders who purchaces multiple tookens at a time would not be purchacing single rides from a MVM. The number is high because these riders tend to buy 5-10 tookens at a time
In the first few weeks of the new policy there are sure to be many dimwitted morons who still do not see the value of spending %10 to ger a 20% discount.
Remember there were reports that people did not know the fare was going up at all. there are people lost in space
You can throw it away after six uses.
---Choo Choo
P.S. When riding Redbirds sb through there, I seem to remember hitting a higher exit speed.
--Mark
That's the railfan window at the opposite end of the train, i.e. looking back at where you have just been, as opposed to looking forward to where you soon will be. The anti-railfan window get's much less respect and recognition than it deserves. I try to ride it and promote it as often as I can.
---Choo Choo
--Mark
Not "anti-railfan" window -- anti-"railfan window."
The window at the rear end of the train.
---Choo Choo
Hey, "anti-railfan window" already has one hyphen, and one is enough. Don't be bringing another hyphen to the party.
---Choo Choo
EXAMPLE:
You or someone else says they saw something and post the car # and time. Someone in management sees this and looks up the train register sheets and sees what T/O or C/R was on the train. He now has a TSS follow this crew looking for something to get them on.
Understand now?
----Choo Choo
I've enjoyed a ride on a Slant 40 on the L line with the T/O pushing every red light as we went under the East River. I'm sure the T/O isn't supose to anticipate the red going to yellow to the point of being within feet of the red signal at 40 MPH ... so I wouldn't post the car number or precise time.
I believe the posted speed in that area is 40mph. I usually take it at around 37-38. Some T/O's, especially those not familiar with that area, will take a little bit of brake because it's a sharp curve, and you have timers just beyond that area.
Could you please find out for me?
I usually take it at around 37-38.
Are you a 2/3 T/O? Are you? If you are, oh man, you must have the time of you're life when you're flying up and down between Chambers and 96 St! Please tell me that it is a lot of fun and that you always try to squeeze the maximum speed out of the cars between Chambers and 96 St. Pretty please!
Some T/O's, especially those not familiar with that area, will take a little bit of brake because it's a sharp curve, and you have timers just beyond that area.
I wouldn't call it a "sharp" curve. I'd call it a curve that was designed for much, much higher speeds.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm not very familiar with that area of express track between 14th and Chambers. When I became a T/O, the 1 and 2 were both going to Brooklyn, making all local stops in Manhattan. So I rarely saw the express tracks. The 3 was terminating at 14th, so I never saw the express track south of 14th.
I am having the time of my life as a T/O. Good pay. Good people. Everything has been going well for me.
a great DOT enforcer by putting up bus accident prints
Um, that accident was well recorded by officials at the scene. What was wrong with my photos?
he doesn't know there in fact IS a 40 MPH speed limit at that curve as determined by the fixed Miscellaneous sign north of the station in question
Well now I do. Thank you for telling me. Maybe I would have known had there been more railfan window eqipped cars running on the line. Don't blame me with all those blind New Tech's running through there. And finding a (3) with a railfan window at the front of the train requires waiting and sometimes even more waiting.
because he is lost in the "argument" and far from reality, and has a fixation on ambulance chasing instead of investigation.
I don't want any arguments. Since when do I argue? Maybe if you'd come on one of my or Peggy's subway events you'd meet me and you'd see what I'm really like.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
'Shoe Beam speaks many truths and wisdom!
We ALL need to practice better judgement in public forums.
Self included.
Back 30+ years ago when *I* did my TA stint, there were some morons in management just WAITING for the opportunity to climb up someone's butt. But the railroad itself was SO screwed up, we all tended to watch out for one another and let things slide ... not so any longer, paranoia seems to be the way of life now.
I know ya meant well, but putting details out there for the beakies is just something that would cause more problems than good because of the CULTURE of the TA these days. If you appreciate what crews do, let then know quietly and in person, but otherwise it's best not to draw attention to them. Unless of course, they appear to be a danger to the public. In a situation like THIS, call them in downtown.
I know shoebeam and I respect him greatly. One of the MAJOR reasons why you don't hear dishy stories out of crews any longer here is that so many seemingly innocent comments by foamers have soured them to no end, and many have gotten in serious trouble JUST for having their interval identified. Unfortunately, with the MTA being the way it is, there's just no good that could come of it. :(
It's best to just not give ANY details, no matter what the situation unless you observe something dangerous to the public ... then the proper thing to do is drop dime quietly. Like I said, I know you MEANT well but unless you've been on the inside, you may never realize how a compliment can turn into a disaster for the person you intended to pat on the back ... MTA's like that, as are other agencies.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I guess I'm old school. When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, the motormen and women would often leave the cab door open so's I could take in what they were doing. Foamer glass was HUGE and plentiful and best of all, if the train was empty or near empty, I even got the chance to pull handles under "supervision" on a REAL train. When I got my handles, I would do what I could when there was a kid interested in how it worked, would leave the door as far open as practical if it was safe to do so and let them watch me "work it." IMAGINE what they'd do to me NOW if I was still there to do it. :(
When I came to the city for Christmas, got some cab time on a 143 as a favor from some friends who shall remain nameless, but since left the TA. Some pictures of us in the cab were posted to a railfan site. There was an IMMEDIATE investigation since the Governor didn't get an invite for cab time until three weeks later and was in the papers. The "second floor" was LIVID and some heads almost rolled until I pulled some political strings. That resulted in a bulletin instead of people getting time on the street for the situation.
But it would be VERY helpful if railfans would sit and THINK ... if you ENJOY something, the last thing you would want to do is disrepect the occasional treat by CHITTING on those who gave you your treat, your rare photo, your rare story ... and yet there's so many that JUST don't get it. The subways and those who work on them work for POLITICIANS. Politicians LOVE to demonstrate their control and authority by roasting stomachs in hell. And that means the poor bastard hourlies who just happened to be nearby or are SUSPECTED of being nearby.
Damned shame people don't understand that ... all of us who ever got PAID for handle time just want to do our runs and go home without having to worry what some "foamer" might do to us without even thinking.
To "buffs," ENJOY the ride ... enjoy the rare treat, ZIP IT. :)
BTW: 239th is 'Rooskie Free' save two of my crew buddies. They were smart...everyone else moved to Coneys Island Overhaul. Closer to home but 'Salt mine production line' work rebuilding trucks and the like. Guess they don't like being 'home again.' (Volga Boat Song.)
Sorry to hear your buddies hit the silk, but can't see as how I'd blame them. I signed up for a pick on the D train since I lived at 205th Street. TA always had a sense of humor though. Had to sign in at Stillwell for BOTH half-shifts. When a pick comes that puts you near home and the work is with more familiar and easy to do stuff, they'd have to be INSANE not to pick out.
And I can imagine their reaction - have fun, genius, with your Kursks on wheels. Spasiba! Dosvidanya! :)
Let's just say that folks from the old "Soviet Union" are amused by us Americans ... :)
Ice it, brah. We can ALL LEARN from our past wrongdoings.
And what specifically would be the reason for adding that information? Your post adequately described what happened, and none of us need to know the car number or time of day to appreciate what you have written. Every T/O who takes that curve aggressively can think he/she may be the one you are referring to, and know that at least one rail fan appreciates that style of operating.
If someone in management identified the T/O from your information, he/she might be considered a "hot dog" and have it held against him/her in the future.
Tom
I would think that not braking through the curve IS normal. It was certainly designed for much higher speeds due to the banking.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If it is normal, why did you post anything at all about it? And you failed to respond to my query about what posting identifying information (car number, time of day) would add to what you posted.
Tom
Where exactly is the gift shop and would the Shuttle or the 7 bring me closer to the store ?
Thanx in advance for any help.
Walk toward the front, and go up the stairs (not the passageway in the middle). Exit the turnstiles and go to your left. You'll pass a Rite-Aid and a bookstore. The TM Gift Shop will be on the left.
Walk toward the front, and go up the stairs (not the passageway in the middle). Exit the turnstiles and go to your left. You'll pass a Rite-Aid and a bookstore. The TM Gift Shop will be on the left.
And of course we will recognize Salaam by the hard hat and reflective vest. Maybe I should bring an autograph pen in case people mistake us for the Village People. :-)
Tom
Alas, I have no transit related shirt, but I could wear the classic "No Justice, No Peace" T Shirt.
Tom
--Mark
Bah Fongool!! (Never learnt how to spel.)
No such thing as an ugly Italian! :-)
You wanna see ugly, wait till *I* get there Saturday morning!!
-Robert King
By the way it's the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
Training class is being conducted (that's School Car for the subway types), so some cars (two-man are out.
I'll be there around 10:00 AM
You can call our Information Line at 410-547-0264 and get info on Hours and Admissions, Directions to the Musuem and Special Events.
http://www.baltimoremd.com/streetcar/
Peace,
ANDEE
People who have seen the show firsthand, this writer included, have come away from the production with strong, even passionate, feelings about the subject matter and the show's backers, NYCT and the MTA.
"The Borough Hall Escalator Show" is playing 24 hours a day at the Borough Hall station of the west side IRT line. You can't miss it - even if you try.
---Choo Choo
Would it be ok if I added that to a new section of my website for subway humor?
---Choo Choo
Nice job.
---Choo Choo
Coming soon to the Food Network: How to Best Flavor a Cooked Book, starring none other than Peter Kalikow (with supervision provided by Emeril Lagasse)!
Cooking the Books... how to get your public REALLY hot and spicy over
your latest dish... without dishing the DIRT on how you cooked it!
Lawrence Reuter: Host
Paul Fleuranges: PR
Good one. :)
My version of the chorus:
------------------------
I'm sorry 'hanger,
Didn't mean to hurt you,
Didn't mean to make you cry,
But tonight, I'm fixing my escalator.
One more time.
I'm sorry 'hanger,
Didn't mean to hurt you,
Didn't mean to make you climb,
But tonight, I'm fixing my escalator.
----------------------------------------
Hmmm, I like this. Maybe over the weekend I'll write up more lyrics that go along with this song.
---Choo Choo
Live theater? huh? Where are the cameras?
Was the "problem" rectified? Or did they just give up?
CG
I want to know why NYCT can't duplicate the results at Broadway Junction: of the three escalators, at least two are almost running, and I think I've always seen at least one going up.
It goes up until it stops. Some ass-clown always has to push the damn button...they should be arrested for that. Imagine, smoothly riding up the escalator...and then it comes to a grinding halt. Used to happen every other day...but hasn't in a while. Maybe they've finally cracked down on those who were doing it.
Is this produced by the same folks that gave us the 161st-River Ave. escalator saga ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You should be doing this for a living.
I don't think anyone could WRITE one better if they tried! Someone mentioned taking this show on the road. Who plays Peter Kalikow and Lawrence Reuter though?
How about "The Wild Walls of Wilson"? I gotta go out tommorrow (err....today...it's 3AM?!) just to take a picture of the 3 holes in the wall. You could fit a person through one of them! And the lower level is both extremely beautiful (mosaics) and disgusting (coated in urine and dried-up rainwater) at the same time.
You could fit a person through one of them! And the lower level is both extremely beautiful (mosaics) and disgusting (coated in urine and dried-up rainwater) at the same time.
If Atlantic Av on the Q wasn't fixed, it'll be "The Mystery of the Missing Wall Tile. Ok to your subject DTrain22, that is EVEN worse than a unkept subway bathroom my goodness :-0.
I nominate the "Sea Beach Comedy", it looks at the ENDLESS decline of the Sea Beach and certain Subtalkers [YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;-)] endlessly cracking on it ranging from the long gone NX to the deactivated track to the stations being in horrible shape. This is a critically acclaimed "show" and is made possible by the unnamed Subtalkers [again, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;-)]. Someone even went as low to suggest callng it the S for shitty, how cold.
You guys will automatically received your updated copies via email when I complete the fourth chapter in the next two to three weeks as will those who had responded to the first few threads I posted.
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
New respondees as of 4/28/03
boriqua
Michael Calcagno
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
I've already emailed those listed above for dates the documents will begin to be sent out. Tomorrow I will post that message again for others to view.
Again, those of you who hadn't seen or read the first few threads, you still have time to request a copy.
Remember you can also email me privately for a request.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
Thank you.
---Choo Choo
It's developing into a book if that's what you mean. I have completed over 400 pages so far.
"I clicked on them once or twice over the last few months, and after not seeing any explanation about what your huge post was about..."
That may have been why the response level wasn't as high, not that it wasn't good. This time around, the response level is an improvement over last year's group.
I'm glad you responded and I'm sure that you will like it even though it is quite involved. Wait until you read Chapter five on rolling stock, since I know you like Redbirds, and there are lot of birdies that still live on.
THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY
Founded by 1927 (and still playing ever since), it is the saga about bureaucrats trying to plan (and failed) a subway line running underneath Second Ave in the Borough of Manhattan. Witness, the Gilloutine act, last used in 1975 during the Fiscal Crisis. Be shocked as we introduce the newest act "The Newest Engineering Study". Marvel as we try to find a new shovel to start the digging process again. Discover new horizions as we take you a tour at the unfinished tunnel sections in the 100's. Laugh (and cry) at Republicians and Democrats fighting each over as to how much Federal and State funding should go to the pre-production of the upcoming sequel: "The Building of The Second Ave Subway".
FREE TICETS NOW AVAILABLE:
Step right up ladies and gentlemen, come get your free tickes for Act MMMMDCXXXII, shows taking place on Monday 5/12 at 4 PM at Bowling Green and at 5/13 at East Harlem. Limited time offer so please hurry in.
But you can't have four M's next to each other in a Roman numeral (M) and do they even have a D? Did you mean L?
John
Too bad I can't go.
I picture people with bloodshot eyes and drool from their mouths to their keyboards as they type this stuff. This is sorta getting a little redundant though.
WAAAAUUUGGGGHHH!!!!!!!!! I WANT 2ND AV SUBWAY NOW, OR I WILL BEGIN BREAKING THE MTA!
Mark
We also looked at University Crossings, a nearly unmistakable old building at 33rd and Market, it's a white, high rise apartment building (14 or 15 floors IIRC) just south of North and East Hall. That place would have been excellent, just steps from some classes, PLUS (assuming once again that we got an east side Apt), views of all 30th St station to the north, including glimpses of Amtrak's yard. Unfortunately this place, despite being newly renovated with A/C, and all was about 1800 bucks, well outside the price range of 3 or 4 college sophomores.
Sadly reality has struck us hard, now we're looking more for economy, with one person suggesting the Northeast as a possible location. If that happens I'm off to see Drexel housing again and beg for a dorm, cause I AIN'T commuting to West Philly from the Northeast. The best place we had was at 48th and pine, only the 34 trolley a couple blocks to the south, but man, 775 a month for a place that by all rights could be called a 4 bedroom apt. But we lost that one because we had our thumbs up our asses with the northeast question, and now we're back at square one...
You wouldn't happen to know if that Woodland Terrace has any apartments, would you? It'd be great to have a subway outside the door, even if I'm not looking at it.
Sorry bout the story of my last 6 months, and thanks
I wish I could be more help. This is a great neighborhood for lots of reasons, good railfanning just one of them.
Mark
But I'm 150' from the Metrolink/Amtrak/BNSF San Diego line. And my bedroom doesn't ever rumble when the train goes by (in fact, I don't even hear them...they are that quiet!!)
Mark
Me too. It's called Second Avenue Maybe you've heard of it?
...grumble groan...
Mark
The view I sure miss from the roof:
Mark
If I choose to go to San Diego, I almost always use the train as I can get around down there easily on the trolley to the places I go to. Same thing for going up to LA, I never drive if I can avoid it. Traffic out here is just such a pain in the arse...
Looking forward to the meet!
Do you need anything from this area???
Steve and Salaam;
E-mail me so we can exchange cell phone numbers to keep in touch in case of any last minute delays or changes of plan.
Tom
San Diego
La Jolla
Carlsbad Village
Solana Beach
Del Mar
Del Mar
Oceanside
Solana Beach
Freight (real freight, not the joke we have on Long Island)
Del Mar
Solana Beach
...And La Jolla...just picture walking with your girlfriend here with the beach on one side and the tracks on the other. (sorry the scan is dark-the original slide is much better-some of my older photos are slides, and my scanner doesn't always scan them well).
What's that bridge in the background of the 2nd one?
If one wants to see some real heavy freight action, when in the San Diego area, all one has to do is ride the Pacific Surfliner up to Fullerton where the trains begin using the BNSF mainline for the remainder of their journey into Los Angeles. There is more freight action in Fullerton in one half hour than the LIRR sees in a year.
Besides the 20 daily Amtrak trains, there are about 24 daily Metrolink trains through there. And over 100 BNSF road freights a day. Trains go through there about every 10-15 minutes on the average....all with 3 or 4 heavy road locos (Dash 9-44CW's are predominant on BNSF). Oh, and the daily round trip of the Amtrak Southwest Chief, too....westbound around 7:30 a.m. or so, eastbound late in the evening. Fullerton is paradise....plenty of rail action, restrooms available, parking available, and plenty of places to eat all within one block of the station area.
Oh, and the police never bother anyone sitting around there photographing trains.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I agree with all here that San Diego is a great place to watch trains. I love the route of the Coaster and the Amtrak Surfliner which goes not only along the beach but through a beautiful green canyon just north of the city.
I disagree with the thougth on the weather. I've been there twice in the Spring and it was really cold both times. (A small price to
pay for such good railfanning.)
Mark
As for the BNSF San Diego yard, do you have any of your photos posted online? The photos I took there didn't come out quite right.
Mark
You must have gotten really (un)lucky to get that cold weather -- I go down to San Diego all the time (it's only 80 miles away from where I live) and it's always either nice and mild or a tad warm. And out to friends' places 15 miles inland, when it's warm in San Diego, it can be blazing. (La Mesa/Spring Valley area)
As for the yard in San Diego, it looks like one big yard, but it actually is two yards -- separated, of course, by Harbor Drive. The "shore" side yard is, of course, the BNSF. The "inland" side of Harbor Drive was the former San Diego and Arizona Eastern (Southern Pacific) but is now San Diego and Imperial Valley and the Trolley. Coaster uses the SDIV yard for mid-day storage of two or three train sets that do not stay in off-peak service.
At one time, before Coaster's facility was built north of Oceanside at Stuart Mesa, they would run the Coaster train sets right down the San Diego Trolley line late at night to have periodic inspections performed by SDIV personnel at their San Ysidro shop near the border. To this day, SDIV does repainting of Amtrak cars under contract, and they have to be hauled down the trolley's tracks at night by the SDIV switcher. (They also did one of the Coaster cab cars recently after it was in a grade crossing accident -- so now there is ONE shiny clean Coaster car in the whole fleet.)
I thought that yard looked like it was divided into different sections for different trains.
Mark
The Amtrak F40's are GONE.
They now run F59PHI's.
The Amfleet cars are GONE.
They've been replaced with the beautiful Pacific Surfliner sets.
The ex-Metroliner cab cars are GONE.
The Pacific Surfliner sets have their own cab cars that match the trains....they are the coach/baggage cars.
The grade crossing in Solana Beach is GONE.
The whole station is down in a cut below ground level, has been so for at least two years now.
While the surf line offers many scenic views int he San Diego area, there's also (within a couple hours) Cajon Pass, Tehachapi, and San Timoteo Canyon. Non-stop freight action on heavy mountain grades, day and night -- and beautiful scenery in those places as well!
1997 Solana BEach
2001 Solana Beach
Yes, and those Surfliners are beautiful. I still couldn't believe all the changes in just a few years. Just 10 years ago F40's was the Amtrak standard.
I rode through Cajon Pass and Fullerton, but unfortunately did not have time to stop then....one day though......
Of course, it was sub-leased to me for 1 year while family friend went out of country for 1 year. If they moved out completely, I would've taken over and I could set up Webcams from bedroom window including thousands of pictures and probably will never move out (LOL!)
Michael Calcagno
--Mark
Did he see you taking it? :-)
Tom
--Mark
I assume they're referring to the Shop Rite by the Avenue I Station of the Culver Line. In which case the only way you could get to "the city" in 20 minutes is maybe by HELICOPTER from the roof of the Shop Rite to the lower tip of Manhattan.
If the 57th st/7th Ave station is closed, where will the Q terminate? This is the same problem back in February.
They didn't do a Q advisory. That is where they goofed. The R/W advisory looks OK to me.
The S/B platform was closed at 57/7 during that G.O.
Chuck Greene
My deepest condolences to you and your family.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Then again, I may sneak the PATH trip after we are finished with the IRT Sunday trip.
I hope to SMEE you there too.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Perhaps some of you would take us a few steps further to solve our mystery. Here is the story as it stands--now that you have shown us what could NOT have happened:
What we do know is that in 1928 Dad's friend came to New York and got a job working in downtown Manhattan. The story goes that he went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home to his apartment on East 72nd Street.
One day he was running late, and we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and have accidentally gotten onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel on a subway! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale sensations for a subway rider experiencing his first trip through a tunnel under the East River? We know he went under the East River--the point of the story always was that Dad's friend was whisked through a tunnel under the East River and was totally surprised. Maybe a tunnel is not darker than the average sub-terranian subway routes? Maybe it has some other unique sensation--like sounds. or change in grade of the tracks? We may need to adapt these details in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.) Perhaps this could have been the DeKalb Avenue station?
We know that at this point Dad's friend got off the subway, climbed up to ground level, and looked across the East River at lower Manhattan. He asked a stranger, "How can I get over there!!!"
The stranger showed him where he could catch a trolley that would take him over the Brooklyn Bridge back to lower Manhattan. And he did. Does this sound possible? Would he have been able to see either the East River or the Brooklyn Bridge from the DeKalb Street station?
While we are in the company of so many who know about subway history, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did he place his nickle?
Thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to visit New York!
Mike and Carolyn
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel on a subway! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale sensations for a subway rider experiencing his first trip through a tunnel under the East River? We know he went under the East River--the point of the story always was that Dad's friend was whisked through a tunnel under the East River and was totally surprised. Maybe a tunnel is not darker than the average sub-terranian subway routes? Maybe it has some other unique sensation--like sounds. or change in grade of the tracks? We may need to adapt these details in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.) Perhaps this could have been the DeKalb Avenue station?
We know that at this point Dad's friend got off the subway, climbed up to ground level, and looked across the East River at lower Manhattan. He asked a stranger, "How can I get over there!!!"
Why would he have not simply gotten back on the subway???
I'm thinking of the outside possibility that he began from City Hall and got on a Brooklyn Bridge BMT train instead of an uptown IRT train at the adjacent stations. It would have gotten dark when his train entered Sands Street station (partly covered) on the Brooklyn side of the bridge. But if he got off there he would have gone down, not up, to the street. He would have seen Brooklyn Bridge from this location and also have been able to get a trolley back to Manhattan.
The stranger showed him where he could catch a trolley that would take him over the Brooklyn Bridge back to lower Manhattan. And he did. Does this sound possible? Would he have been able to see either the East River or the Brooklyn Bridge from the DeKalb Street station?
No, he couldn't have seen Brooklyn Bridge from DeKalb. He probably couldn't have seen the Manhattan Bridge either because he view would have been obstructed by the Myrtle Avenue el.
While we are in the company of so many who know about subway history, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle?
Yes.
He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did he place his nickle?
Depending on the date, probably.
The story is improbable as stated. Having done some number of interviews in historical research, I can tell you that perfectly competent people make errors in remembered stories, as to time, place, and details. Stories get mixed, one with another. Ask any husband and wife (separately) to describe a shared event. ;-)
The more I think of it, Either this has been a trick question or something important was omitted from the original question.
Any underwater tunnel trip causes a change in air pressure, similar to riding a skyscraper elevator, which causes one's ears to "pop" a little - which makes a person swallow to alleviate the problem.
Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"?
That nickle fare would allow a person to ride theoretically forever, as long as he/she did not exit the system. You do not (and still don't) lose your initial fare until you leave the fare control (within the turnstiles). You can change to train after train after train at designated free transfer points and not lose your initial fare until you exit through a turnstile or adjacent gate. Once you leave another nickel would be necessary to re-enter at the same station or any other station.
Something is missing in this puzzle. When did this person get on the train? We know he was going to 72 Street. But when did he get on the train in the first place? Either I missed something entirely. Or this has been a trick question.
I may plan a future trip based on this information.
Some subways have windows into the cab where you can see through that to the front, but that's mainly in the US only (Atlanta, Chicago, DC...).
Also Baltimore and Miami (same model of cars) and Los Angeles Red Line (similar interior layout to Baltimore/Miami cars).
Mark
At least the R142s and R143s still have a window in the cab door. It could be a lot worse. London's Underground trains have just a peephole and Montreal's Metro trains have nothing at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
The way I've seen it is that the trains are always full length and only the first and last cars have the cabs.
I was watching a tape just the other day (Ron Carson's Traction Update 1997) that had a segment about a train that was running on the San Diego - LA route. I think it was the test train from Denmark that they were evaluating for high speed service (I had the sound off so I didn't hear the commentary).
The cars mate together with fat rubber seals and a passageway in the middle. The front end of the train looks just like the ordinary end of a car, with the rubber seal and a door with a window in the middle. But the door is actually the front wall of the engineer's cab! Normally the engineer sits right behind the window, with the controls built into the door in front of him. To add another car to the front of the train, you open the door and swing it around so the controls and the seat tuck into a recess in the side of the passageway.
Actually, quite a few subways abroad have center seating for the T/O. Some of the self-propelled cars over there, like the Bombardier Talent and Siemens Desiro, also have center seating with a glass partition behind it and a curtain for privacy, but that probably wouldn't work on a brightly-lit subway train that spends much of its time underground.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
London's DLR has full width railfan windows in the front car (it is driven by computer, so no need for a T/O or cab). Your only problem will fighting off all the kids who "want to drive".
Although mostly an elevated system, there are two significant subway sections (Bank to Shadwell, Mudchute to Greenwich). David Pirman has a good photograph taken through the front-window in one of those sections here.
I'd like to call it a bathroom that has not been serviced.
Show me a subway restroom with toilet paper, toilet seats, soap and paper towels and I'll show you the Second Ave subway running !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was there a day game at Yankee Stadium? Maybe there was a rush of trains to pick people up after the game.
Under the plan passed by the state legislature.
-- Our property taxes are up 18 percent.
-- The local personal income tax (bet you don't have one) will be going to 4.25 percent.
-- The state personal income tax top rate will be going to 7.5 percent.
-- The combined state/local sales tax will be going to 8.65 percent.
-- The transit fare is going up by 33 percent this year (or more than that next year).
-- State university tuition is going up about 33 percent.
-- Garbage pickup one day a week.
-- Firehouses closing.
-- Class sizes rising.
-- 4,000 layoffs, more to come.
-- 6.5 percent water and sewer rate increase.
-- Brooklyn and Queens zoos closing (somehow we could pay for those for 100 years, but not now).
-- Libraries open five days per week, at most.
That's the "liberal" plan. The Governor proposes fewer tax increases, but even more draconian service cuts. No reductions in Medicaid reimbusements, and no public employee union givebacks imposed, in either plan, though the Governor would take Medicaid services away from people.
Mayor Bloomberg claims people shouldn't flee soaring taxes and collapsing services, because they'll find it wherever they go. True.
But hey, at least GE don't have to dredge the Hudson anymore.
You aren,t even close to California, where no one believes there is any chance of a balanced budget. It has been said that the California deficit ($35 Billion) exceeds the total budget of some of the other states.
Tom
On rail related, I understand that Yonkers Kawasaki is closing, and Bombardier is about to fold upstate, jobs to go to those morally superior RED states ... new improved RED states, now with 100% pure fundamentalist moral fiber. Disregard that blowhard behind the curtain. If *I* was governor, I'd be cancelling some train orders about now and seeing about getting the state into the REFURBISHING business. Then again, we'd have a budget too. :)
I've heard nothing like that. Bombardier might fold because they lost the contract -- they have plants elsewhere for other contracts. Didn't hear anything about Kawasaki.
Neither plant should have existed in the first place. It's only because the idiots in Albany demanded that the new MTA orders be made in New York that Kawasaki opened in Yonkers and Bombardier in Plattsburg. Both could have used existing plants elsewhere to produce better cars at lower cost.
Truth be told, it was Upstate that got nailed in the base closings. NYC NIMBY's would never allow an AFB. But Upstate did get some of that good defense money, and losing it hurt.
Yes, the Mayor's NON-DOOMSDAY budget eliminates funding for the Brooklyn and Queens Zoos, which would be closed. The NY Wildlife Conservation society has already taken a deposit from me for a zoo camp for my two children. Let's see if I get my money back.
Truly sad though what municipalities all over the state (and to a lesser degree in other states) are being put through in order to further feather the nest eggs of Enron, WorldCon and Halliburton. People be damned. :(
1. Medicaid restructuring.
2. All monies collected IN NYC actually go back to NYC. The State pilfers money from the City every year in one of the most uneven partnerships I've ever seen.
All you damn republicans out there need to tell your party leaders to give the money back to the city. Republicans seem to think that NYC is a cow.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: We want to spend!
Suburban and Sunbelt Republicans: We don't want to.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: How about a compromise?
Suburban and Sunbelt Republicans: Okay, we get most of the money, you pay most of the taxes, and we blame you for them.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: Deal! After all, all the leaders of are party are from states that get out more than they pay in too, even though the states that elect most of our representatives are in the ripped off states.
Look for another fare hike next year, or in 2005. It's a virtual certainty. NYC has it easy, the last couple of years, mostly because the GOP wanted to see if, by the miracle of gods, Giuliani was somehow able to turn the city around so that GOP would have a fair shot of getting NYC's vote. Now that it's clear that he didn't, it's time to bend over again.
My last off-topic post for the day was initially much longer, but I decided to cut it short and to the chase. The NY Times reference reminded me of their slobbering, predictably stupid review of Allen Steele new sci-fi book, "Coyote". Asimov's monthly published the story, in small chunks, for two years before it came out in book form. Anyone who read it in Asimov's could've easily predicted the NY Times' guaranteed puff piece. Can't really have any other outcome when the centerpiece of the story is a portrayal of a brutal, Nazi-like dictatorship of future Earth, "The United Republic Of America", complete with imperial spaceships that carry names like "USS Jesse Helms."
NYTimes glowing review of this book-length version of Michael Moore's Oscar speech definitely redefined the meaning of "stupid".
Walked over to the car, and asked a very pretty female cop what was going on. (Had my BSM lineman's badge on my cap). She replied that the Bomb Squad was investigating a "suspicous package" up the street. She noticed my radio on my belt and advised me that a radio silence was in effect. I turned mine off.
While conversing, at least 4 cars came down Falls Road and were told that the road was closed. At least 1 idiot tried to pass the police car, so the cop gave him the blast on the siren.
He turned around, but was not the least bit happy about it.
Lemme put it THIS way ... 'Nuff said ...
Probably a cop on the earlier shift forgot his bag of donuts, and someone thought it was a bomb.
Comment by one of our shopmen later, on hearing the report: "somebody's backpack just got disintegrated".
Life in the Big City.
Ah, the adult diaper business is postively booming these days!
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-27-03_MNRR_TRIP/
In this update you will see some pics of the last remaining track with traditional New Haven diamond catenary, several NHRR Signaling Stations (aka Towers), a few shots of the Amtrak regional train that my CDoT M-2 MU train nearly beat to New Haven, WOODHAVEN, one of the few NYC flying juctions and how MNRR has brutally DEFACED the tower there and several more.
As usual here is a teaser to get you to click on the link:
Comments/questions/requests welcome.
FOLLOW WHAT UR CAB SIGNAL SAYS
ALL THEY CAN SAY IS FLASHING GREEN, DOUBLE RED MEANS STOP, AND IF CAB SIGNALS FAIL, THEY CAN ALL FLASH SIMULTANEOUSLY DISPLAYING ABSOLUTE CLEAR. WHEN I GET BACK FROM MY OUT OF TOWN TRIP, I WILL EXPLAIN ALL OF METRO NORTH SIGNALS. I work there so i know them all
Read this from the SI Advance.
Bill "Newkirk"
No it does not say the fare is $4.00. It says a rider needs $4.00 in order to ride the system to St. George and exit. That is because there is nowhere on Staten Island to purchase a single ride card except at the machine at the ferry terminal outside of fare control at St. George, and the rider must do an exit swipe to reach it. Prior to the fare increase I guess it was possible to purchase a single token to use to leave the system.
Tom
No, it actually says you need $4 for a round-trip. The article makes much ado about nothing.
If you're riding from St. George, you pay your fare (using any kind of MetroCard or cash). You get off wherever.
On your return, you do not pay to enter the system. Upon arrival at St. George, you pay to exit.
I see nothing wrong with any of this. I agree, however, that a MetroCard vending machine should be placed inside fare control. If MTA really wants to be nice, they could place MVMs at the busier stations of the railway, though these would be mostly superfluous.
How hard could it be to install an MVM inside fare control at St. George? That would solve the problem.
Yeah, but would they have to have a single ride card or a card with $2.00 left on it to get "trapped" . A real tourist would have a Fun Pass insuring him or her a full day of riding anywhere, not knowing anything like St. George fare controls.
"How hard could it be to install an MVM inside fare control at St. George? That would solve the problem."
I agree with you on that, isn't there any MVM's on the outside of the fare controls ? Or how about signage stating that you need a valid Metrocard with at least $2.00 on it to leave the system. The T.A. loves to make and hang up signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
A sign and MVM outside fare control only helps those who enter SIR at St. George. Someone who enters SIR anywhere else (say, after a bus ride over the Verrazano, or after parking the car somewhere on Staten Island) first encounters St. George from inside fare control.
There needs to be an MVM, with a SingleRide slot, inside fare control.
Maybe for the frugal tourist at heart. But the expensive Funpass may just be the ticket for some European tourists who come here and spend their money like it's water ! Nothing wrong with that of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sea Beach Ferd tells me it's because the (N) Sean Beach train is restricted from the Manhattan bridge and forced into the Montague St. rathole !!
Bill "Newkirk"
More difficult question: Where does the LIRR Rockaway ROW go (north end)? What line (if any) does it merge into (or where does it end)?
Impossible question: I have heard that there was an LIRR line to Whitestone/College Point. Was this line in a private ROW, and if so how many tracks did it have, and what is the current status of the ROW (I'm sure the track is gone by now)? And of course, where is it?
I believe Bob Andersen's site has all of your answers (and more).
CG
http://arrts-arrchives.com/wstone1.html
http://forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/whitestone/whitestone.html
It connected to the current LIRR mainline at a spot called Whitepot Junction
Impossible question: I have heard that there was an LIRR line to Whitestone/College Point. Was this line in a private ROW, and if so how many tracks did it have, and what is the current status of the ROW (I'm sure the track is gone by now)? And of course, where is it?
Yes, it was a private LIRR ROW and was mostly single-tracked. Outside of this old switch north of the Shea Stadium station, the ROW has been completely eradicated.
For the longest time alongside the Flushing River north of the IRT line on Roosevelt Ave there was the LIRR ROW track going to Whitestone Landing. Next to the track was 1 or 2 old railroad cars that were knocked over on its side.
The Central Line is running again and trains are being brought back as they are being repaired/upgraded. The latest I could find was this press release from April 28.
John
Did you see the Mavericks put up 83 in the first half?
-Stef
The Redbirds are ruling alright..............under water !
Bill "Newkirk"
I got 2061-2070 down for a transfer.
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Despite all this, the Redbirds are going! Make sure to get those pictures in, folks! Everywhere you can! At Queensboro Plaza or at Times Square or at Shea Stadium! I especially like Choo Choo's pictures at Queensboro...very awe inspiring!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
What episode did you see them in 'The King of Queens' anyway? From what I've read, it portrays Queens as a bad place... Like as all of Hollywood says...
Here is a link to it http://www.palter.org/~subway/nyht-19610707.html
>>> the other 20 million [tokens] are outstanding, <<<
It is interesting that there was a 20 million fare float (without discount) in 1961. Perhaps the introduction of the token in 1953 kept the fare at 15¢ longer than if the turnstiles had been modified to accept multiple coins. Now that the token has been recalled, I wonder what the total breakage was. I wonder if the MTA will ever tell us.
Tom
Cute article, though. But in 1961 did they forsee a two dollar fare and thin plastic cards you swipe to gain entry ? No, but the probably foresaw a Second Ave subway. Sounds bass ackwards to me !
Bill "Newkirk"
Trainset #1, which consists of 1361-65 and 1596-1600, were on the road this evening when I spotted the set at 79th St going N/B shortly after 6:15.
1361-65 also have new wheels.
There is more to come....
-Stef
Has anyone here rode a Manhattan-bound Redbird <7> train? Is it any good?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Hmmm...lemme practice some SAT words...
CC LOCAL once said that the Redbirds are very versatile.
You do a lot of assiduous work photographing them.
I hope the rebuilding of the track and the introduction of R-62A's doesn't ruin the integrity of the ride.
TA employees don't have as much candor as they used to. What once were benign compliments from customers and stories of innocuous rule-breaking would nowadays get an employee in a heap of trouble.
My math may have gone up to 710 but my verbal is down to 510 (both out of 800). I need to STUDY!!! I do NOT want to have to take this test again. Hey wait a minute, I think this strategy is working. I'm remembering these words now. Who'da thought I could think about trains and study at the same time? Studying isn't even something I'm good at. I've only studied for one test in the last 6 years.
Bill "Newkirk"
I can't bear the bad A/C and 10-car trains duing the summer. I will miss the 'birds but I won't miss the bad service they have been giving recently.
Will the 7 be the only place to find them?
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
How many railfans ride in diesels and rider cars?
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
What's this you say? They didn't even notice?!
-Stef
Presently the base fare for a ride on either bus or train is $1.35 with a 25¢ transfer to a second line. During night hours (9:00 P.M. - 5:00 A.M.) the fare on buses (but not trains) is reduced to 75¢. In addition tokens are sold at the rate of 10 for $9.00.
The new proposed fare structure is to lower the base fare 10¢ to $1.25, which I am sure the MTA will spin as a fare reduction, but it will eliminate tokens, transfers and the night rate. Instead of transfers the MTA will sell day passes on the bus and at train stations for $3.00 allowing unlimited rides for the whole day. In addition there will be a $10.00 increase in monthly passes from $42.00 to $52.00. It is possible under one option that tokens will be retained, but at a rate of 10 for $11.00. It is also still up in the air whether discounted fares (senior, student, disabled) will be increased.
All of the present passes are sight passes. The LACMTA has been investigating a MetroCard like system, but there has been no announcement of implementation, and with the present budget crunch it will probably be put off to better times. [also posted on Bus Talk]
Tom
I think the Second Avenue Subway should be the Gold Line in NY. It's expensive ... and buried ... and hard to pan out. ;-)
Originally it will use 26 Siemens cars similar to those now on the Green Line, but the LACMTA has an order in for 50 cars from Ansaldobreda S.p.A. of Naples, Italy due to arrive by May 2007 and an option for an additional 100 cars in future years. This should make the Breda fans happy.
Tom
By the way, welcome back. Hope everything's okay.
And now the Gold Line is being extended into East L.A. Originally East L.A. was to be an eastward extension of the Red Line, which would be justified by the estimated usage, since many of the Hispanic residents without cars in East L.A. shop and work in the downtown area.
When the politically powerful Westsiders who have no plans to ride public transportation anyway said no more money for subways, it was easy to ignore the needs of the poorer community in East L.A. I am happy to see that they were at least able to get the Gold Line extended eastward.
Tom
It is not quite that good. It is good only on LACMTA buses and trains. It is not good on the Metrolink commuter trains which would be similar to the LIRR or Metro North. Also, LACMTA is not the only bus operator in the county. They are now selling a monthly E-Z Transit Pass for $58, (compared to a $42 MTA pass) good on almost all buses in L.A. County, but both types of passes have premium stamps for express buses.
The day pass is only 20% more than the cost of two single rides, but there is no reduced price transfer. Under the old fare structure, a person taking three buses to get somewhere would pay the base fare of $1.35 plus 50¢ for two transfers totaling $1.85. The new system would make the day pass at $3.00 the cheapest way to go since the alternative would be three $1.25 fares, or $3.75. Because of the spread out nature of L.A., many trips involve transfers.
This type of daily pass brings out the gambler in us. If when I leave the house I expect to go one place and return (two trips), I would not purchase the day pass. Now, if when I get to my destination I find I have to go to another location, and then go home, I will kick myself for not buying the day pass, but still won't buy one because there are only two more trips. If when I get to the second location I am told that I have to return to the first one before going home, I will probably buy a day pass, because I expect whatever can go wrong will, and then at the first location I am told I am done for the day and can go home, losing another 50¢.
Tom
Will LAMTA refuse to accept transfers from the other agencies?
Each of the local bus companies has its own price and transfer policies, although most allowed some kind of interagency transfer the last time I checked, which was before the introduction of the E-Z Transit Pass.
I do not know what the policy will be when LACMTA goes to its new fare structure, but it accepts an OCTA day pass for the Orange County surcharge portion of the fare on the Disneyland bus, and in the neighboring counties of San Bernardino and Riverside, the day pass is accepted for one ride on the other county's buses as a transfer at places the buses interconnect.
Tom
You could pay $2.50 cash, but there will be no more 90¢ tokens. If there are tokens at all they will cost $11.00 for ten tokens, i.e $1.10 each. But if you are planning to take a third bus or train, or return to where you started, the $3.00 day pass is what you want.
Tom
Arti
A backdoor way is to search (for Air Shuttle) on Google News. The article can be accessed without registration.
Tom
Elias
From my observations only, Amtrak is clearly responsible for a good chunk of the lost business between NY and DC. Every time I've taken the Acela Express along that route it has been sold out (though I have always been able to buy a ticket a day or two before departure).
On the other hand, I'm not as certain about NY - Boston. I haven't taken this route, but have observed a good number of trains both departing Penn and en route. There usually seems to be more than just a few empty seats.
CG
NY-BOS has improved for Amtrak, especially nowe that the railroad can offer an under four hour schedule. But in order to really consider Amtrak for the trip over the airlines on convenience, they have to work out a schedule closer to three hours flat. This means more stretches of 150 mph operation; hitting those curves at at least 100mph consistenntly; leaving and arriving on time and other improvements. Over time, it will happen.
I remember those hazy crazy days in the late 70's when old fighter pilot Francis Gabreski ran the LIRR. The railroad had a very high failure rate of A/C and the last place you want to be in the summer is on an M-1 with NO A/C. Their friggin windows don't open. One hot summer, I came home after a days outing of riding the Nostalgia Special. At Penn Statiom, so many cars were hot that me and a couple of hardy souls braved the inferno while a few cars with working A/C were packed. I sat on that seat next to the open window where the conductor uses to open and close the doors. I even stood by the open window while the train was in motion. The conductor didn't raz me about that, hell you could see by his uniform shirt that he was sweating bullets.
This was the same time the LIRR had only a hand full of spare traction motors for a fleet of 770 cars ! You know what that means, TRAILERS. The M-1's were so slow excellerating, they couldn't get out of their own way !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The last trip was one minute after Midnight (12:01am May 11, 1975)
I remember that day, I was 15 years old, I got to the Culver Shuttle at about 7:00pm to stake out the westbound railfan window. (R30 car #8525)
When it was time for the last run, the train was packed, looked more like the 42nd St Shuttle than the Culver Shuttle!
Enjoy the pictures:
www.CulverShuttle.com
-Larry
"Culver Shuttle closes. Dozens affected."
-Larry
-Larry
I would give anything to see some West End elevated construction photos, but some of yours marked "Culver" were also for the West End. That 1915 shot of the Culver/West End merge is incredible!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Larry
www.CulverShuttle.com
subway.com.ru
--Mark
-Larry
--Mark
Any chance we can scare up some accordian players for the first run over the Manny B?
It sure did feel like a party, I was on the last 6 round trips, and it filled up by the last two.
On the final trip from Ditmas to Ninth Ave, they blew the train horn the entire way!
-Larry
Schedule permitting, I intend to be on the first West End D in 2004. See you there.
When 2 Broadway is completed, will 370 Jay St. Be sold? I know that developers are eying that property, along with others, for development. Downtown Brooklyn continues to grow.
That's always been the plan. 370 Jay Street needs a gut rehab, and is a good site for a hotel.
The MTA got hosed on 2 Broadway, allright. CPM didn't manage the job, although CPM is occupying the building.
Fans of privitization take note: the private sector is more innovative and efficient, but one its favorite innovations is efficiently fleecing the government.
Are they just going to rehab 370 Jay or tear it down? That's one ugly building. At the least they could change the facade.
They made part of it government offices to get it built, since the hotel market was unproven. Now they want the offices out to build more rooms.
(Are they just going to rehab 370 Jay or tear it down? That's one ugly building. At the least they could change the facade.)
They could gut it and put a new facade on it easily.
I thought that they were going to just build another 23 story building next to it.
(I thought that they were going to just build another 23 story building next to it.)
That too. They are making lots of money. My parents were visiting once and wanted to stay there, but it was sold out so they had to stay in (gasp) Manhattan.
And for its part, the government is extremely fleece-able.
Do your abandoned ROW walking from the comfort of your own home at OLDNYC.COM
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I can guarantee that on neither tour will you encounter poison ivy.
Another question; What time do I have to be at Grand Central or Chambers St?
With all the changing times and modes, you can still
get a front window ride on a car that bears the OPENING YEAR.
Somehow it's already 3 PM and my brain's not awake
"...we recently have salavaged 12 previously unavailable storm
doors from the Redbirds. Eight have already been purchased and we'd like to
know if you are interested in one or two. They cost $100 each to purchase
and $100 to ship. If you are interested, please let me know immediately as
these are on a first come-first serve basis! Thanks. --Kevin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin M. Sanders
Operations Specialist
Asset Recovery Unit
MTA New York City Transit
Ph: 718.694.5459
Fax: 718.694.5344
His e-mail is KESANDE2@NYCT.com and I am not making up those prices, that is the exact e-mail.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW: Would you really want an oily/greasy door?
If it is red, has a window, and a handle, then YES, YES I would like an oily/greasy door.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
til next time
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Or so this is what I am given to understand.
Elias
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
Here's a site that links to a railroad where the practice is still used for standard operations ... http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/lamure/english/exploit.html
When they motorman passes the baton (paddle) to the track worker or vice versa, it means that his train is the only train in that section and that no other train shall enter. This is done when one train operates in both directions on the same track.
Bill "Newkirk"
No they dont need to. The signals take care of that, and if a second train enters that block, it has to be with permission from supervision.
On the upcoming M.O.D. IRT fantrip on June 7th, this example may happen. The fantrip calls for departure from GCT shuttle track #1, which is in daily use. What may happen is the fantrip train will pull into the shuttle track while the regular shuttle train is still at Times Square. That shuttle will have to be held there until the fantrip trains leaves and once again the shuttle will traverse that track.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
We'll see!
Not if a quick boarding time of about 15 minutes or so so they load and go. I attended some fantrips that left from Track #1. And I was told that the shuttle was held at Times Square. The track normally closed on weekends remained closed through all this, but it was load and go.
I'll give you another example. I attended a fantrip hosted by the NY Division ERA back in 1979 or 80 called "The Mosholu Transfer". It consisted of the Low V's painted in the Diamond Jubilee tuscan red colors and a flat car with bench seating painted the same. We boarded at Grand Central, all attendees sitting on their bench seats, and we proceeded as far as we could go to Times Square with the shuttle train held in the station.
After that we changed ends and off we went to GCT and rejoined the IRT lex Line, still sitting on our bench seats on that flat car in the open. NO WAY could something like that be held today, ya know, lawsuits, liabilities etc. While waiting for the fantrip, the Low-V's were still waiting for us in the pocket at GCT, the Shuttle on Track #1 was still traversing until it was held at Times Square. In those days something wild and wooly like that could be done, but today........nah !
Bill "Newkirk"
For starters, the Lex Ave local connecting track at GCT is long enough for the excursion train to lay up and wait. That's the way it's been for fantrips / excursions in the past. At Times Square the excursion has to pull ahead of the switch, a crew of workers have to raise the plate and do a reverse move to Track #4. It would be easier to go the route of Lex Local and back up to Shuttle track #1. And besides, what excursion / fantrip wouldn't be complete without passing or stopping at City Hall loop ? I was on many a fantrip where the first photostop was City Hall. That's the railfan equivalant of Mecca. We all have to pay a pilgrimage there with out cameras and get that sacred steel dust on the souls of our shoes !
Bill "Newkirk"
Also known as passing the "baton". In the past, they used to pass a yellow flag instead of a shoe paddle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A shoe paddle isn't heavy, like a shoe beam. It's probably made of plywood.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The schoolcar "board of education" is used ONLY on customers. :)
The old term was "baton", who knows, maybe now it's paddle. Times change !
"Bill Newkirk"
Dunno what they do these days, but I'd imagine it wouldn't have changed much. 'Cept for the lanterns of course. Now they depend on that dead pink bunny. Heh.
when I set the pressure and move the handle towards the power settings
the pressure doesn't decrease.
So, was this movie being shot with the Nassau line connected to the finished 2nd avenue subway?
I was due for a subway dream, anyway.:)
Chuck Greene
For bold type, substitute "b" for the "i".
Chuck Greene
So for the above, the tags that are before or after the words ( etc) put them outside your text, for example (as above) text will be text
Color is more complicated:
Start off with and end it with
Replace the color in quotes (not the word color that I capitalized) with a color of your choice. text becomes text
Quotes are optional, none of the above are caps sensitive.
So for the above, the tags that are before or after the words (<b> etc) put them outside your text, for example (as above) <b>text</b> will be text
Color is more complicated:
Start off with <FONT COLOR="color"> and end it with </FONT>
Replace the color in quotes (not the word color that I capitalized) with a color of your choice. <font color="green">text</font> becomes text
Quotes are optional, none of the above are caps sensitive.
Sorry about the first one, I violated the rule about previewing when using escape sequences. This doesn't mean you can't preview your HTML (you should ALWAYS preview), just what I was doing (showing the actual codes) previewing is a no no.
replace ( with <
replace ) with >
replace x with a color name or pound sign with hexidecimal number (ex. blue, purple, #ABCDEF, or F5D42C)
Maybe you were trying to ride on the Diamond B Train!
: ) Elias
: )____________ Elias eating spaghetti
Veiw line 27 in the source code of post;
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=490715
John
In the spirt of "Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day, but teach him to fish and you feed him for life," let me suggest there are several free HTML tutorials on the internet. Check a few of them and you too will be able to do all the fancy stuff.
Tom
I wouldn't mind if David had up a page up explaining how to do stuff like that in Subtalk. It would be helpful and help eliminate having to ask questions like this from time to time.
It is easier for him to make a place for a page that you make than it is for him to make a whole new page himself.
: ) Elias
I have no knowledge on HTML! There goes your argument. :P
And why should Dave provide instruction in HTML? It is not transit related. Some Sub Talkers have trouble with spelling. Should he also provide a spell checker? How about a grammar checker? Maybe a course on budgeting to offset the fare increase. :-)
Tom
One post directed at one individual, with 298 replies. Including 101 replies in one day -- fully one week after the original post. These must both be some kind of record.
Probably not a single one with any meaningful transit content whatsoever. Lots of political discussion. "It was Clinton's recession". "It was Bush's recession". "Bush Sr." "Reagan"
"Carter". "Tyler".
Some good discussions of SubTalk personalities too. This one's a bigoted racist. Another one is a pinko commie. Somebody else never contributes anything meaningful to SubTalk (of course that particular someone else stayed out of this thread... hmmm).
In none of the 298 -- nor, I believe, in the entire nearly 500,000 post history of SubTalk -- has anyone ever typed out the words "Wow, you're right! I'm going to revisit my entire political viewpoint." Are we somehow waiting for that to happen? Does the person who actually gets somebody to type those words win some kind of prize?
I realize that politics and transit are necessrily intertwined, and that we'll all succumb to the urge to interject our own political opinion at times. Doesn't there come a point, though, where we can just drop it and move on? Has the phrase "agree to disagree" somehow escaped the vocabulary of the posters on this board?
CG
Yes. Yes it has.
--------------
Doctor: What you need is a good, long rest. I suggest Florida.
Homer: Florida? But that's America's wang!
Doctor: They prefer, "The Sunshine State."
--------------
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'd be happy to send my thoughts to you and Fred if you send me an e-mail.
CG
-The F between Roosevelt Ave. and 21 St/Queensbridge
-The F between 21 St/Queensbridge and Roosevelt Island
-The N/W between Queensborough Plaza and Lexington Ave
The trains feel like they're going reeeeeeaallly really fast down those stretches. Is there a maximum speed limit? Do the trains down there often exceed it? It's sooooo much fun.
Trains going down the 60 St tube go at about 60mph. As for the other two, the F between Roosevelt and 21 St [Queens Plaza for the E], on a train I've been on, it went 51mph [better to ride the E so you could see the speedometer].
I can tell you that, a few weeks ago, I rode an N train from Lex to Queensboro (yes, that direction) that hit 60, according to the speedometer.
Other fast rides are the 2/3 from 72nd to 42nd (I've seen 50 on a Redbird) and the SB Joralemon tube (I've seen low 50's on a Redbird).
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
However, from Bway Jct to Utica, some T/O's of the R-32/38's tend to forget about the timers at the bottom and accelerate like the N/W entering the 60th St tube. Then the train slows to a crawl at Utica.
Diverted (C) T/O's are wimps on the express track; they don't even top 30.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The truth reveals itself. Please don't exaggerate when answering a simple question that has a factual answer. I mean, either you did or you didn't see 50mph on the speedo. It looks like you didn't, so you flat out lied to us. You've just lost all credibility, for like the umpteenth time. But that doesn't mean we can't still be friends. (for nitpickers, I'll retract the "umpteenth" and replace it with "second", because I know I've said this to you at least once before)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As for F going between Roosevelt and 21 St/Queensbridge...going westbound the train hits a max of 40-42 MPH when it departs from Roosevelt and when it bypasses 65 St (it hits about 40-42 just before the tunnel descends). After that, the speed gradually drops to I would say about 25-30 MPH.
The R tends to be slower than the N/W since it negotiates a curve at the Queens end of the tunnel.
Anyway, we took the next cars going down towards Bayonne. Rode to 45th Street stop. (good rfw) I bought two tickets and validated `em at Marin Street....took the next car going back up to Hoboken. Both times, no onboard ticket checkers. Saw `em at, uh, Pavonia but they stayed on the platform. Rode to Hoboken Terminal; great elevated views of the terminal on approach. And the stretch through J.C. was marred by the lack of the Towers. Put a damper on some of my joy. Something was lacking....
So at Hoboken we waited for the next boat for Pavonia and World Financial Center. The North River was exceptionally busy from what I observed. Not just one but two large cruise ships silently cruised downriver, plus a long I guess container ship went by. Numerous ferries; NY Waterways and those yellow schoolbus-looking boats zipping across and up and downriver. Lots of sailboats too. That stretch of river is sure nice to be around. One unexpected note: As dusk was slowly approaching it gave my railfan heart a skip to notice the HBLRT cars passing by the Pavonia area downriver from the Hoboken ferry docks. To see those cars rolling by the huge buildings fronting the river....very pleasing sight indeed.
(So that makes it, what, three diffent ways to go from Hoboken to Pavonia? Underneath the streets via PATH, on top of the streets via HBLRT, and over the water, since the W.F.C. boats stop in Pavonia first? Anyplace else have such a level of redundancy?)
Rode the waves to the Center. Walked over the new bridge to Liberty Street. Looked at the painful visage.....the kid took some pictures, we looked over the Wall. It was too much to encompass. Nothing you say gets you over on it. We walked over to Wall Street, took the 4 (not one of the new trains darn it) up to Brooklyn Bridge. Transferred over to good ol' Chambers Street BMT. (Figured I'd get the boy to appreciate North Brooklyn the down home way). He was freaked over the station. We took the next J train going to Jamaica. It came in on the middle track at Chambers, and skipped Marcy Avene. I thought we were gonna go express but no such luck. All stops but it was a pretty good run at that. Waited just past Broadway Junction for about five minutes or so. I think so as to let a city-bound train go by? But we got moving again and got off at Sutphin Blvd. Darn it, we missed the 19:30 diesel express to Babylon by six minutes! We left Chambers Street at six fourty; I thought we would have made it to Jamaica with about five minutes to spare. Guess that E.N.Y hold done us in. So we ambled around Jamaica for an hour and caught the 20:49 train, express, Freeport and Babylon, transfer for Patchogue Scoot. Funny thing was, there was a Montauk Express train leaving twenty minutes later. But the kid didn't want to wait there longer so we took the first train. Pretty good train freq though, two expresses withing 20 minutes of each other...on a Saturday night.
Sorry for the inexact rambling here. I figure, well, I showed this boy five different types of rail transportation nodes plus a riparian bonus to boot. Gave `im sumpin' to digest.......
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Thanks. Yeah, and I had been dreaming of other ways too, like taking the Shortline bus from Islip to White Plains and coming down to G.C. by train, or if I REALLY had time I would have taken the Greenport line from Medford to Greenport, the ferry to New London, Amtrak to Penn Station, PATH to Newark, bus to M.L.K. Blvd, J.C., and HBLR to Hoboken. But it wasn't in the cards, plus we would've missed the Medford connection anyway, going back home.
I planted a few train seeds into the mind of a "yout". Couldn't hurt...
Greenport station is several miles from the Orient Point ferry terminal. Dunno if there's any connecting bus service.
You're right, forgot about that. There is the S92 bus that would have done it. For that matter....aren't there "ferries" leaving from Montauk going up to Rhode Island? Thought I came upon that once while searching for ferry services. There's a circle line tour to consider.
I believe there are ferries between Montauk and Block Island in the summer. Combine one of those with a Block Island-Providence ferry, then Amtrak from Providence to Penn, plus of course LIRR from Penn to Montauk, and yes you've got the round-trip. I somehow doubt that it could be made in a single day, however.
Actually, I would have gone to Journal Square and taken the 87 to the M.L.K. station. I like the bus station there. It seems to me that Journal Square don't get any respect. I've always wished it had an actual commuter rail component to it.
These are photos taken today, 5/10/2003, of the Camden-Trenton Light Rail Cars, with Bombardier propulsion packages and carbodies originally designed by Adtranz, re-designed and built by Stadler, a Swiss-German company...They have a high speed of about 69MPH, though the cars will only go 60MPH at its fastest points.
Enjoy!
Camden-Trenton Light Rail car #3508 at the South Jersey Light Rail facility in Camden, NJ.
Two Camden-Trenton Light Rail Cars, #3505 and #3517 in the yard facility in Camden, NJ.
Camden-Trenton car #3516 inside the shop facility in Camden, NJ.
Interior view #1 of the cars.
Interior view #2.
View of an uncovered seat on the cars.
Interior view #3, looking through the passageway in the C-module, the middle module of the car.
Interior view #4.
A view of the diesel and propulsion unit in the C-module of the cars.
Hope you enjoyed this Cleanairbus Presentation!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
So then why do they have the doors there so people can open them and pass through? THAT would be a waste if people couldn't walk through...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
We were told that when the line opens, the "C" section will be open for passengers to walk between the "A" and "B" sections. If it causes problems, passengers will no longer be allowed to walk through the "C" section.
David
Just shows to go ya, Mike; you have to consider the source!!!!!!!???????????!!!!!!!!!! You must seek PROFF!!!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!!! (that's a little 'welcome back' for Salaam)
We're talking about walking through the power car aisle to get from one passenger car end to the other.
That's what they told us during our visit last fall. They're learning as they go along, and since service isn't scheduled to start until fall, they have a lot to learn.
They even understood the silliness of terminating service at 10 PM, given events at Trenton Thunder, Camden Riversharks, Tweeter Center, &c., will let out later and could contribute significant ridership if the line ran later. Yes, use of Budd RDC's between Camden 36th Street and Bordentown has been suggested.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I got a photo of the cars in the yard north of the shop at 5 PM yesterday (5/10/03).
I also took the liberty of posting a link to your post to the railroad.net South Jersey light rail message board.
Bob
Also, where is the Camden yard in relation to the Rand Trans Ctr.
Also, where is the Camden yard in relation to the Rand Trans Ctr.
Fall 2003 is still their current estimate.
The Rand Trans Ctr station is in downtown Camden. The present Rand Transp Ctr is behind the photographer's right shoulder, across Broadway from the light rail station. The shop is in East Camden, at 32nd Street.
More specifically, they are 2.22 miles apart along the right-of-way; Rand is at MP 1.28 and the shop is at MP 3.50.
They are 67ft long in a world of 60 and 75ft cars. How about this. Bombardier makes some sort of a deal with the T.A. since they may never run them again. Buy them back, redo the full width cabs where the operator controls the trains functions on the left instead of right. Now you have a new technology test trainset for PATCO (NJ-PA). The R-110B's will be 67ft cars in a 67 foot car system.
If PATCO needs to test new technologies for an advanced replacement, a modified R-110B may be the ticket.
Bill "Newkirk"
PATCO was buily with a center platform in every station, so the train operator's seat is on the left so he has a view of the platform for door-closing (OPTO).
PATCO Collingswood station
The L. A. Metro Red Line cars are configured the same way, but at least there almost all the stations are island platform, the only time the operator has to get up is Vermont Av eastbound (railroad south) b/c those platforms are stacked in order to avoid a crossover at grade (the separation point for the Hollywood/North Hollywood and Wilshire lines is just west of this station).
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Speaking of which, I would imagine they'll keep the IRT museum cars coupled together in the same order on the March of Dimes trips as they were at the museum: R-12, R-15, R-17, and R-33. Since the R-12 has trigger boxes, you wouldn't want it in the middle at the conductor's station. There's a good chance that whoever serves as conductor will be working lever handles, as both the R-15 and R-17 have them.
However, there is a risk that you might run into a police officer who could conceivably arrest you anyway.
I would climb up to the point of the sign and say I had to climb up there since I am very nearsighted and wanted to read the sign ;-)
He says that there will be a "Train Technician" on board, but that he will not be operating the train, but rather ensuring that the engines are working correctly, making repairs on the fly, etc.
I ask him what about grade crossings, and he says "What about them... even if there *is* a crew on board, they ain't going to stop for some jerk on the crossing."
I said that these are *manual* switches out here, and he says "They will be changed over to remote control."
He says about 60 months, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a railroad near you.
Elias
Train wasn't going to stop for him even if there was a four-person crew in the cab. Even if the crossing gates didn't work, the train *still* would not (could not) have stopped for him.
If the lawyer is *that* stupid, set *him* out on the tracks with a stop watch and let him make the measurements and field tests for himself.
Elias
Either your leg is being pulled, or you might just be willing to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.
That they have been conducting tests, there can be no doubt, unless as you say, my leg has ben stretched, but this guy is not one to do that, so that leaves us with the stark reality that BNSF is going to go a LONG way to eliminate as many people as possible. They *want* to run their trains with no crews on them, and techinically, there is no reason why they cannot do so.
Elias
But while it isn't being put into practice just yet, it IS being looked at very lustfully by the major railroads ...
Shirley, you jest.
Think the legal establishement wouldn't fight that tooth & nail? The cable and broadcast channels are full to overflowing with "no fee, unless we win" and "If you have a phone, you have a lawyer". Think that's a sure thing, I offer a bridge I happen to have - it has a lovely view of Brooklyn.
The SAS will be in full operation and 76th Street will see a train before that ever happens.
All seriouness aside (10 points if you know where that came from), a couple of my friends and BSM associates happen to be lawyers and they do good things, like get the BSM logo registered as a service mark and schmooze the local pols.
I can rephrase it for NYCT.
"He says about 60 YEARS, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a subway near you."
"He says about 60 CENTURIES, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a subway near you."
MTA- Coming your way.... just not this lifetime.
Subway riders with $20 bills can now get change to buy $2 single-fare MetroCards.
On Friday, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced that station agents would no longer refuse to make change for riders with twenties who need smaller bills to buy fare cards from vending machines.
The vending machines provide a maximum of only $6 in change, making it difficult for a rider with a $10 or $20 bill to buy a $2 single-fare card or a $7 one-day pass. Riders had complained that station agents were often unable or unwilling to make change for larger bills.
The vending machines will now provide up to $8 in change, said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the transit agency.
The change in policy, first reported yesterday in The Daily News, came after customer complaints, he said.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And the MEM's are small in part because they don't have SingleRide dispensers. It might be confusing to add the feature only to the full MVM's.
That is almost certainly a contractual secret (i.e., the credit card companies will insist that the MTA keep the numbers secret so that those who pay more don't scream).
Assuming it's flat fee plus percentage, the flat fee component can't be anywhere near $1.00. Some Burger Kings take credit cards (faster than cash, they claim). They'd never do that if they couldn't have negotiated a fee that's essentially just a small percentage. And while the MTA isn't quite as big as Burger King, it's still pretty big and can negotiate a good deal.
There is a company that clears every known card transaction (Amex, VISA, MC, Japan Credit Bureau, Carte Blanche, Diners Club) and processes the paperwork for you, so you don't even have to have a relationship or merchant account with a credit-card issuer. This company charges 6% for the privilege.
What does the merchant get for these fees?
1. The merchant is guaranteed payment, and knows that the burden of collecting is on the credit card issuer.
2. The merchant doesn't have to worry about checks bouncing or security for large amounts of cash, or making change
3. The merchant gets itemized statements of revenue and expenses, which helps with accounting issues, sales taxes, and the like.
MTA could get a deal to pay for relatively small transactions by credit card, because the volume is very high. (SEPTA does it.) Why don't they? I don't know. Maybe just inertia.
That's a major change since I was involved with a small business... Discover was right up there with American Express back in the mid-'90s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(I have no idea if the cashier was telling the truth.)
Tops is owned by the Dutch supermarket giant Royal Ahold. I'm sure Royal Ahold could secure a good deal.
NYCT may be in a slightly worse position. Tops requires a signature on the receipt, although it's not verified. NYCT doesn't ask for a signature at all. (Does Burger King check signatures?)
hehehehehe......
But as the SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE SKIT which predicted "Turnstile of da future" went ...
A concept that gets overlooked too often these days is the whole idea of "voice." I'm not referring to narration here. I'm
talking about the "tone" in which people and organizations communicate. Every person and company has a sort of
personality which (ideally) should be present, if not always overtly, in its messages.
If you don't believe this is the case, let's flip the idea upside down. Most of us have seen the spoofed commercials on
NBC's Saturday Night Live. What makes these things so hilarious? Many people are actually fooled for the first few
seconds into believing that is an actual commercial. That's because they are usually utilizing a familiar "voice" that
we've heard on actual commercials. Again, I'm not referring to the actual narrator's voice, but more the method of
delivery and the visual style of the images. Most of the actual premises are juvenile and absurd. What makes them
funny is the completely credible way the spot comes across.
An example is the very authentic-feeling "National Change Bank" spot. This spot was a spoof of a very similar spot
done for a large bank with the people of the bank professing how important customers and their needs are to them.
The interviews are softly, but very directionally lit to give a very intimate feel. The original, legitimate spot was
designed to make you feel protected and even befriended by the advertising bank. Of course, in the Saturday Night
Live spot, the bank strictly changes the money into different denominations for you. I recall one interview answer that
went something like this, "All our customers needs are different. When someone asks me for change for a dollar, I
can give you four quarters, I can give you ten dimes or twenty nickels, or five dimes and ten nickels, or a quarter,
three dimes, eight nickels and five pennies, we know life is unpredictable, and we want to be there for you." When
asked the inevitable question of how they can do such a thing and stay in business with such a narrow and decidedly
profit-lacking specialty, the "Vice President" type points to "One word..... volume." The premise is so nonsensical that
without the presentation wrapped around it, would it even be funny?
AGGGHHH! I finally GOT it. :(
thanks, Jeff
That's easy for you to say .... now that Dave has updated the caption.
Tom
Robert
Robert
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
*I think the fledging requirements is an official anouncement on Subtalk and more than 2 people showing up.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's Sunday or nothing, unless we can pull off a weekday.
Sean
Temple University
We'll just have to find time on a weekday.
Also, the route 100, 101 and 102 lines run 1/2 hourly service on Sundays.
--Mark
Sean
Temple University
Columbus Circle isn't even one mezzanine -- it's split down the middle by the IRT. The south mezzanine isn't much longer than the standard IND mezzanine, if at all.
Needless to say, I've since found an alternative to walking down the Green Mile. :)
The latter admittedly isn't a single corridor for most of the trip like the former is.
I've always thought of that as a passageway rather than a true mezzanine. Note that it's lined with various maintenance facilities, rather than being just empty space.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't forget; these passageways were built in an era when people walked more. I can also appreciate the planning behind their construction. Most probably, the streets were not so nice in many areas. Horse crap, primitive traffic controls, and the paving itself all lent itself to making for a messy walk. The idea that you could enter into the more controled (hence sanitary) environment of "The Subway System", even if you weren't in the presence of tracks and platforms no doubt offered a great appeal to pedestrians. There was also a "modern" feel to it all, to the many interconnecting underground passageways under the pavements. I'm sure it added to the peoples' sense of excitement about the Future. To this day, there is the element of something futuristic with underground passageways. It's somehow cool, the multi-layer aspect of it. On Top, the City moves about unceasingly. Yet the need for passage drives it to dig within itself and sprout roots so the valued nutrients (us) may go where needed and replenish the Whole.
Ahem.
Don't forget; these passageways were built in an era when people walked more. I can also appreciate the planning behind their construction. Most probably, the streets were not so nice in many areas. Horse crap, primitive traffic controls, and the paving itself all lent itself to making for a messy walk. The idea that you could enter into the more controled (hence sanitary) environment of "The Subway System", even if you weren't in the presence of tracks and platforms no doubt offered a great appeal to pedestrians. There was also a "modern" feel to it all, to the many interconnecting underground passageways under the pavements. I'm sure it added to the peoples' sense of excitement about the Future. To this day, there is the element of something futuristic with underground passageways. It's somehow cool, the multi-layer aspect of it. On Top, the City moves about unceasingly. Yet the need for passage drives it to dig within itself and sprout roots so the valued nutrients (us) may go where needed and replenish the Whole.
Ahem.
I don't think there was much horse manure any more in the early 1930s when they built the 8th Ave IND.
In 1971 I worked at the old Port Authority HQ at 111 8th Ave. I used to get off the PATH at 14th St, cross 6th Ave., go back downstairs, then walk underground outside of the fare area all the way to 8th Ave. then continue underground up to 16th St where there was a direct entrance into the building. The 7th Ave. to 8th Ave. section is now closed off but when I used to walk it, it had a fence splitting it in half longitudinally. The other side was used as storage for hundreds of penny scales and other hardware that used to occupy the platforms.
Going home was a little more direct. I could get to the PATH directly without having to go outside at 6th Ave. There was one morning when getting off the uptown PATH there was a torrential downpour so hard that I couldn't get across 6th Ave. I got back on uptown PATH, rode to 33rd, then back to 14th where I could get directly into the passageway.
Sometimes I would go upstairs at 7th Ave. where there was a Needicks and get a 25 cent breakfast special that included a tiny orange juice, tiny donut and a coffee. Then it was back downstairs for the remainder of the hike. This was great during the winter.
Your mention of this passageway brought back other memories as well. I recall during the 60's a Needicks in 69th St. Terminal Upper Darby in the passageway under the Red Arrow tracks. It's long gone now. I miss Needicks. Now I've got the urge to visit 69th St. again. Since I'm in my office in Philadelphia today, I'm going to spend my lunch break there as soon as I push the "send" button.
That was a good way to go in stormy weather.
(P.S. - what ever happened to the penny scales??)
--Andrew
1. Start at north end by stairs on the Broadway
2. After walking upstairs, use the #7 corridor next to S/B staircase.
3. After turning right, DO NOT TAKE RAMP, continue straight ahead to the renovated area at the IRT side and 41st st exit.
4. Go past the IRT renovated area and in the back is a P/T exit that is NOT part of the renovation, there are a pair of escalators. (Note you will also avoid the crowds by the passageway from shuttle to new passageway before IRT side)
5. Take escalator to Flushing Platform, make a u turn and walk towards West end of platform.
6. Go to next staircase walk upstairs and you will see the ramp and passageway to 8th Ave and the PA Bus terminal.
IIRC the escalator will be carrying you further westward, and there's no reason to make a U turn when you get to the base. Walk straight and up the next stairway.
191st st/IND through the passageway to Broadway.
Other not so dark places worth a cross-country hike:
Chambers St/IND (fare free or paid zone)
From 40th st/Broadway paid area to 44th st/8th ave (entire Times Square/Port Authority complex), clearly the longest mezzanine and walk.
Broad St/BMT to Chase Manhattan Building at Cedar/Nassau sts.
14th st/7th Ave passageway
Hoyt-Schermehorn/IND
42nd st/Bryant Park IND to 5th Ave/IRT
It's about .55 miles. So 11 minutes at moderate walking speed, plus congestion delays.
Post 494003
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
I'd say we're confusing things here. A "mezzanine," as I've always understood the term, is a separate level of a station, located one level down from the street and over the platforms and tracks. It is not synonymous with an underground passageway, which is what 42/8 (among others) really is.
I agree with you 100%, Peter. Mezzanines are being confused with complexes here. I believe the largest Mezzanines on the system exist on The Concourse IND line. Unfortunatly most of them have been closed for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
STILLWELL/BMT
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
<--- W 3 St W 8 St --->
Are these the exits of the two ends of the mezzanines? (I would think so)
A deceptive sign that makes the mezzanine look longer than it is. There is a passageway at the south end needed to actually reach the exit at W 3rd. And the north exit isn't really quite at W 8th.
Also, this being the Village, the grid is no longer truly rectangular and standard. W 3rd is not really 5 full blocks south of W 8th.
Purpose: To provide a final ride over the Port Jervis Line as it exists in its "classic" state before its transfer to MNRR and any changes that come as a result.
When: Some Saturday in June or July, whenever the most people are free
Where: From Hoboken to Port Jervis and back
Timetable Options:
-Early: 9:20 AM train departs Hoboken, arrives PJ 11:27, 50 minutes in PJ to explore old Erie yard, coal dock, turntable and eat at PJ Burger Kind adjacent to NJT station. Return Hoboken 2:48, ample time to explore Hoboken Terminal area and/or PATH.
-Midday: 12:55 train departing Hoboken, arrive PJ at 3:25, 100 minutes to explore old Erie Yard, coaling dock, old Erie PJ station building, NJT yard, turntable and eat and PJ Burger King. Catch 5:10 train to Hoboken, attive 7:18, ample time to say goodbye, maybe eat and catch trains home. Time of year will not make darkness a problem.
Activities: Photos and exploring in Port Jervis, lateral photography in daylight for both legs of trip, possible jointed rail special "Shaken Not Stirred" Martini's served en route. I can provide alcohol and olives if someone else provides drink mixing equipment and knowhow.
Who is comming?: I will be there, Pigs will probably come and I am sure I can drag Chuchubob along. Any other Subtalker, friend of Subtalker or related tag along rail enthusiants are more than welcome to attend.
Note: I did this same exact trip (the early timetable) about 8-9 years ago with my dad and friend. It worked out very well, the only problem being almost missing our train due to poor PATH service from Newark to Hoboken. I advise anyone comming from the south to allow at least 50 minutes to get from Newark to Hoboken via the PATH.
Also, the PJ line is a great line to have a trip on. Port Jervis the town it full of historic railfan type things and the trip has some incredibly senic portions. The MNRR takeover just provides an excuse.
The line from the NY state border is/was Conrail (Shared Assets).
The Port Jervis Line is going nowhere—it will indeed remain, as will the Southern Tier Line west of there. The only thing that's going (thankfully) is the remaining jointed rail, upon which is a 60 mph speed restriction—wherever there is CWR, the speed limit is 79 mph.
If indeed Metro-North is taking over the line (as rumored), then they'd better increase the top speed to 90 mph at least.
Replacement of the jointed rail and pole line signaling system (as well as god knows what else) will completely kill the classic flavour of the Port Jervis line and destory a lot of its history. I am launching this trip in order for everyone to experiance and document the line as it is in its classic state.
Certainly if I don't have a prior commitment, you can drag me along. We might even carpool to Hamilton, since the SNJLRTS won't be running yet.
It probably won't reach the excitement level of my last trip to Port Jervis, though. We checked out the turntable on that trip, too.
It probably won't reach the excitement level of my last trip to Port Jervis
I don't know, I'm proposing alcoholic beverages on this trip.
Anyway, this is still the planning stage, just give me a list of free dates and we'll compare with everyone elses list and pick one.
Interestingly, minutes after I posted my photo of 614 next to NJT GP40 #4103, I found the same photo linked to a railroad.net post by a fan of the Geep!
Some day in July or August is good for me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup…and Princeton Junction (PJ) is in New Yersey (NJ) :-P
Sheeeooot. Bro, when I was in Brooklyn, sometimes, any place north of 14th Street seemed like upstate.
With the other two options, you'll be stuck making all local stops in New Jersey on either the outbound or the inbound leg of the trip. The extra 20 minutes do really seem like a lifetime.
You might also want to check in with New Jersey Transit. Over the last four or five years they always ran a special "retro" trip two or three times over the summer. I don't know all the details, but apparently some rich dude restored an old steam locomotive, and they use it to make excursion runs from Hob to PJ two or three times on Saturdays in late summer.
---Choo Choo
The trick is to sit in the middle of the car. The big diesel coaches have large roomy seats. The cheap, flimsy seats they pack into the sardine cans they run on NEC don't even come close. And if you're in the middle of the car, away from the axles, you barely feel the joint rails.
--Mark
Jimmy
PS. If anyone has a hi-res DVD of this film, look carefully at the AEM7 and see if you can make out its number.
Also what numbers are they?
I can't wait to see them with the new seating installed. And with the rollsigns changed to "Albany", "NY Penn", and "Empire Service". I'll be at Hudson waiting for the first train!
:)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
116- NYCTA Coney Island.
100- N.Y. Rail Car.
200- MK, Hornell, NY.
4- Amtrak.
4- Mechtron, Delaware.
#3 West End Jeff
John
#3 West End Jeff
John
Well, obviously not. I guess the T.A. was experimenting with finding a railcar rebuilder. Only four units were rebuilt, so if Amtrak was sucessful, maybe more units would have been rebuilt.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm still reeling from GE rebuilding the R38's!
I know their float bridge sank and they haven't operated in brooklyn in 2 or 3 months now, but i thought they'd get it going again at some point...
Anyone have more accurate information on just what is going on?
(and for a little bit of foamer-speculation: if all of the bush term tracks are now abandoned, including the line down first av, what will become of the SBK interchange? or of the engines laying around the yard (so far as I know there's 2 or 3 switchers in the shop building, plus the 2 dead ones along 1st av)).
This is where i got it from:
http://railroad.net/forums/messages.asp?TopicID=10867
I am a sophmore at Baruch College and
I am working on a paper for Journalistic Writing on the signifigance of the loss of the token, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks I apprciate the help.
Aaron Siegel
Thanks.
My email is azs11@yahoo.com
SubTALK has had an influx of walk-on students/journalists lately
seeking comment (and y'all HAVE come to the RIGHT PLACE)...
'xcept without a little background info on yourself or your
journalistic venue, it's hella hard for us civilians (!?) to tell one from another..
Not to mention, we recently had a Baruch 'softmore' who didn't
quite "get over" so well with us locals (and expresses) here.
Regardless of my babble..
I'm sure you'll find quite an INTERESTING pack of TOKEN afficionados here.. myself included!
Welcome & Thanks for reading, brah!
I was reading all of the posts over the summer but the more i focused on reading last semester, the more i stopped focusing on school work.
But anyway this is for a class not for the Baruch paper but-- if you want to check out theticker.org's archives you will find my cover story on the fare hike w/ a pic of the 6 train at 23rd st that I took.
good luck with the end of the semester.
When semester ends I am planning another trip. I have gone on 2 or 3 since last summer.
--LIRR Acela M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
What is this, anyway!? Brian (Choo Choo Chap. 11) does this, now you so! Sheesh! :P
Anyways, the M7's are terrible. I rode one yesterday. Even with that yaw fix,they have too much rocking still. I was thinking what would happen once the dest. sign gets mest up like the C3's.
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
"Considering the terrorist threat, i highly doubt it"
I thought of that too, but he says its ok, its no problem.
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Sorry to burst your bubble.
TO clarify.... where have you been on the LIRR?
Hmmm What do you mean? Where I have been on the LIRR all my life?
Jimmy
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Jimmy
Think intersection vs freeway interchange. Non-flying junctions are called "flat" junctions. On the NYCS flat junctions are located at Myrtle Ave on the J/Z/M and at Lennox on the 2/3. Flying junctions are called such because they typically have a route that "flys" up and over another. However if a route drops down and ducks onder another that is also a flying junction. Here are some examples:
WOODLAWN on the NYC Harlem Line where the New Haven Line diverges:
And here we are at Jamacia on the LIRR.
Mark
A Flying Junction is where two AIRPLANES meet to follow one route...
: )
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
1242-Broadway local-7 Av Local-South Ferry
2Kings Plaza/Av U-Skip stop via Flatbush and Nostrand with 5-Bklyn local-7 Av express-Bronx local-241 St
3New Lots Av-Bklyn local-7 Av express-148 St
4Utica Av-Bklyn express-Lex Av express-Jerome [express in the peak]-Woodlawn
5Kings Plaza-skip stop or express with 2 via Nostrand & Flatbush-Bklyn express-South Ferry[weekends?]-Lex Av express-Bronx express to Gun Hill Rd [peak]-Dyre or 241 St
6City Hall-Lex Av local-Pelham express[peak]-Bay Plaza.
7Javits Center-Flushing express [peak direction weekdays as well as weekends]-Bell Blvd via Northern
9South Ferry-7 Av local-Broadway express-242 St
*5 may have introduced weekend Brooklyn serivce.
*I did the 9 express thing on purpose since that skip stop crap will be eliminated :-D.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BTW, I just remembered another Simpsons railroad moment that Pigs forgot. When the REAL Seymour Skinner was run out of town, they tied him in a chair and tied the chair to a railroad flatcar. The whole scene was at the Springfield Station and there was an animated hand operated switch stand.
/me runs away to avoid the court-ordered torturers that are after Mike
Sean
Temple University
It certainly looks cute. But did you notice that as of April 2003 they are still looking for $15 million to set up a prototype system? That means they are still pretty far from proving their concept. Of course I wish them luck; new ideas should be tried.
"Being a resident of Philly I did the math and to cover an area a little bigger then Center City (ie. del ave. to 34th street and south street to spring garden) would only cost in the neighborhood of 200 million dollars."
Maybe. But there are a lot of reasons why that figure might be overly optimistic. It's good that you see the potential, but you haven't done the "due diligence" yet, that is, figuring out what could go wrong with the plan, what the hidden costs are, etc.
"thats less then that supid light rail they are building in south jersey"
It's easy to call something stupid, but I'm guessing from your post that you don't have enough knowledge or experience to tell, yet, what isn't stupid. If this PRT gets set up in Cincinatti for $200 million and then breaks down when more than 20 people at a time use the system, will you call that stupid, or will it be a worthwhile experiment that didn't work out? I'm not saying it will or won't, mind you.
Do you know how much it cost to set up Miami's Metro-Mover system, which goes around downtown and links up to Metrorail?
The South Jersey light rail system has been criticized by some, because of the route selected (meaning other routes are more badly needed) and because of costs, but it utilizes proven technology, and a set of self-propelled railcars built by a reputable, experienced manufacturer, which people will be able ride day in and day out.
I think this PRT is worth developing, but recognize that it's not ready for prime-time yet. South Jersey can't wait the amount of time it will take for this concept to be ready.
Frank Sprague built a system for Richmond, Virginia, and had to prove it, make or break, with a fleet of cars, in public, with everyone watching. He did it and that is why he is remembered as the inventor of the electric street car.
As far as the South Jersey Light rail, i have never been a huge fan of light rail because in my experience (Balitmore) it is often too slow and not much of an improvement over driving. Another reason being that from what I've read the ridership of the SJLR will very possibly be a lot lower then originally predicted.
Until someone can come up with the money to fully test out the concept, most of the discussion on this subject will pretty much be conjecture on both sides.
I meant to post the url in my original message.
http://www.taxi2000.com
Sean
Temple Univeristy
Mark
Sean
Temple University
PRT's been around as a big concept, with a big kickoff conference, since 1973. The problem I see is that with the headways for merging and the small vehicles you'll never get high enough VPH to pay for all those guideways. Even if the cost per mile is low, the visual impact of all those spindly little guideways in old parts of town will tick people off. And I've seen the drawings of the switches -- there are an awful lot of springs and knife blades and things exposed to the snow. Maintenance would eat these systems up. And all so people don't have to walk an extra couple blocks to a line-haul system.
:0)
Congratulations!
And today is Mother's Day, too! Congrats to Mommy! (Would that be your daughter, or daughter-in-law - not that it's a terribly important distinction)
The first was when we would ride out to Lindenwold and then ride back to Haddonfield for fun. Usually we would stay on the train and it would eventually head out in the other direction. Well, one time it didn't and started to pull into the yard. By dad grabbed me and we began to race to the front of the train to tell the T/O to stop, passing through along the way. I was thrilled because in my young mind I thought it was like a super huge no no to pass between cars.
The next story was also at Lindenwold where we were running to catch a train that was just pulling out. My dad had my hand and he ended up pulling me straight into one of those upright columns.
The last story was, one time, heading up the esclator at Haddonfield, for whatever reason I tripped and took a header down a few steps and ended up with a grill impression on my forehead.
I think the moral of the stories is that PATCO is really dangerous for younge Railfans.
That helps us understand some of your posting style...:0)
Congradulations, I'm sure we'll see her at the chapter picnic.
#3 West End Jeff
Just be sure to introduce her to PATCO good and early!
Congratulations!
"My other car is an R142A" or whatever your favorite subway car is.
That will confuse the hell out of people (except those who are railfans).
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
MAZEL TOV!!!
BTW - now is the time to make sure your "License to Spoil" is current.
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
Get her started off right... get her a life membership at your favorite trolley museum :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, if you want I can post more screenshots from such films as The "Talking of Pellham One Two Three" and T"he French Connection".
Peace,
ANDEE
6/8 AMUE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
Chapter 11 Choo Choo/BMdoobieW/Railfan Window
David J. Greenberger
R33 8840
chuchubob
Bill From Maspeth
JayZeeBMT?
Dtrain22?
6/28 AMUE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
R33 8840
Dtrain22?
6/29 SMEE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
Chapter 11 Choo Choo/BMdoobieW/Railfan Window
David J. Greenberger
R33 8840
Stef
TransitChuckG
Ripta42HopeTunnel
BMTman
--Mark
SMEE you on the 8th, 28, and 29 everyone. I got the tickets in only 5 days after I mailed it out. So if you haven't done so, please go right ahead and get your tickets, there should be enough to go around (hopefully!)
The 28th & 29th, it's Sparky only. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Comes with the turf.
---Choo Choo
Just don't put the pin through your chest, just through your shirt.
If you stick yourself, it won't be much fun.
Chuck Greene
That'll fit a 4x3 standard badge holder. When I printed it out it looked too big so I might scale it down to the 3.5x2.25" holders.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
~ Sparky
PS-My posting handle is John S, but all know me as Sparky.
Or, does anyone else want the task?? :-)
8-) Sparky
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Red Bird #4
PS: What does AMUE mean?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Robert
Incognito
-Stef
Does the attendee have to be an official "SubTalker" to be listed?
Or do guests of "SubTalkers" qualify? If so, add Mrs. Sparky to
the list for Sunday June 8, when we will be riding our faved line
in the afternoon. Except in case of an unscheduled GO. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
-Larry
If one gets loose, call the Animal Precinct, Officer Lucas will come
to your assistance. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk" will be attending the 6/8 R-1/9 and 6/29 IRT SMEE trips.
Bill "Newkirk"
Larr, RedbirdR33
Robert
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Robert
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Robert
CG
That's a regular thing now, there are a few (very few) M7 trains roaming the rails with passengers on weekends.
Mark
If you want it built, I suggest you show up. Others are sure to.
I showed up last time, waiting two hours behind all the bigwigs, and testified. But then I was not an MTA employee, and now I am, which means that suddenly I can say the very same things and not have them believed.
Again, if you want it built, I suggest you show up. The arguments I recommend are:
1) Fiscal equity: the affluent people along the East Side pay more federal, state and local taxes than anyone else, yet receive little in public services. All they need is decent transportation to and from work. This was promised, but not provided, three times.
2) Transportation Equity: it would be unjust to build East Side Access, loading even more suburbanites onto the one East Side Subway, without building at least the northern half of the line.
3) Land Use: If the Second Avenue Subway is not under construction in fall, 2004, then the city should admit it has no capacity for additional development in the area east of 5th Avenue and north of 14th Street, and should declare a permanent development moratorium in the area.
4) Conspiracy: If ESA goes ahead and at least the northern half of the Second Avenue does not, no one should believe that this wasn't the plan all along. Is it a coincidence that ESA is going first, and now they are saying they are out of money.
5) National transit equity: if the SAS isn't funded, no new fixed guideway transit system or highway that would carry fewer people should be funded either, ever again.
Again, as an employee, I won't be there to make these arguments. As servants of the Governor, no other employees will be making them either. The MTA is there to apologise of all the environmental impacts building the subway will cause -- the environmental impacts of NOT building something is not part of the EIS process.
If you want it built, show up. Those who post to other transit newsgroups should pass this on there as well.
ONLY those *WITH* an opinion get heard by burrocrats, who nobly present the "tick marks 'fer and 'agin' to the politicos as an EXCEL PIE CHART of "satisfaction" ... like J.D.Powers paid for by lobbyists ... If you don't come out FOR something, the AGAINST its win. :(
Some things are WORTH being for, and being AGAINST ... and the reality is, those who get worked up are the ones who show up, and they're almost universally NIMBYs ... politicians are like FISH (HERE, fishy-fishy-fishy) ... whatever lands IN THEIR FACE *is* the majority. No joke!
Here's just another example - like the DirecTV/Dish screwup by the Shrub administration so that RUPERT of NY POST fame can but the entire satellite world so it's a choice of TimeWarner/NewsCorp (for mouth breathers - does AOL/CNN win, or does Microsoft/FOX win? WHATTA CHOICE? AGGGH) ... off topic, but a worthy cause if anyone cares about TRUTH, or does MSS become a cabinet level minister in the US?
On June 2, the Federal Communications Commission is planning on
authorizing sweeping changes to the American news media. The rules
change could allow your local TV stations, newspaper, radio stations,
and cable provider to all be owned by one company. NBC, ABC, CBS and
Fox could have the same corporate parent. The resulting concentration
of ownership could be deeply destructive to our democracy.
Congress is supposed to guard against monopoly power. But the
upcoming rule change could change the landscape for all media and
usher in an era in which a few corporations control your access to
news and entertainment. Please join me in asking Congress and the
FCC to support a diverse, competitive media landscape by going to:
http://www.moveon.org/stopthefcc/
You can also automatically have your comments publicly filed at the
FCC.
When the folks at MoveOn.org talk to Congresspeople about this issue,
the response is usually the same: "We only hear from media lobbyists on this. It seems like my constituents aren't very concerned with this issue." A few thousand emails could permanently change that perception. Please join this critical campaign, and let Congress know you care.
If YOU don't contact your political WHORES, then you get what you DESERVE! Bad enough the voting public doesn't pay our anointed more than GE or Microsoft or Halliburton or Exxon/Moboil ... but if you're not willing to WRITE to your congressfish, don't complain about the subway fare (whew! FINALLY got it sorta on-topic! Woohoo!) ...
Interrupt your posting here long enough to get a piece of paper into your printer and write a letter of support for the Second Avenue Subway. And then mail it. The MTA needs to have, on record, people from out of town who support the subway.
Do it, Selkirk. No excuses.
For anyone who's actually READ my posts, well ... I have EXTENSIVE, personal experience with politicos ... I *KNOW* how it's all wired, here in Briberyland as WELL as in Enronland ... "the squeaky wheel gets the oil" ... word ... *****BE***** the squeaky wheel. Word again.
Sorry, I use Appleworks :-)
But I suspect that the politicians can't tell the difference... it all ends up as ink on 20 lb. shredder food.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then please be a realist, and realize that your choices here are between two tracks and nothing. Go to the hearing, swallow hard, and voice your support for the two track line. Or write a letter too that effect.
There is standing on principle, and then there's foolishness...
What did Mr. X say?
"one thing I know for a fact... QUEENS doesnt want it,they hate the V,AND THEY HATE THE ARCHER AVE SUBWAY[the way it is now]"
Going beyond the fact that you know no such thing, did Mr. X say any of that?
First and foremost was, that if it doesn't serve Queens in some way, they (the Civic Council) will not support it. They already still feel screwed from the last two major Transit projects in Queens- the 63rd St Connector and the Archer Ave Extension/Jamaica El Replacement. AAmong his requests were that the SAS be enabled for both A and B Division equipment (either platform extensions or door saddle extensions) and that the 7 Express be turned south onto the SAS at 42nd St, while the 7 local continues to Times Square.
Mr X, regular at these meetings, had one complaint that was on topic - the lack of express tracks. The remaining 4m20s was RANT, RANT, RANT.
What's this supposed to mean? The last two major Transit projects were in Queens. Manhattan isn't allowed to get one, for a change?
That's all well and good, but if more rail is offered to them, how would MTA do that so they don't turn around and NIMBY it to death?
There are a couple of projects which could be done relatively NIMBY free:
1) Extend Hillside Av line 2 miles or so.
2) Extend the J train along Archer Avenue a ways (would help fix the problem that the extension did not go far enough).
Now what? Would residents be willing to take a new subway through central Queens, such as along the LIE? A new line to Bayside?
It's a fine New York tradition to rant at the MTA; it's also a fine tradition to be a hypocrite and refuse to accept responsibility for one's own actions. The masters of this art live mostly in Queens.
For 30 years, Queens' terms did not include the subway, since it would attract "those people." Guess what, those people moved in anyway, and Queens is now the most diverse borough in the city.
But since transportation improvments take 30 years, what Queens is scheduled to get is more commuter rail service via ESA. Commuter rail is too expensive for "those people," which is why they wanted it. Now they complain?
There IS hidden trackage under Hillside, unfinished sections on Hillside as far east as to Little Neck Parkway. Only a huge wall seperates non-revenue, layup trackage from the unfinished sections, stations I also think ARE there but NYCT is keeping a low profile on this.
: )
Mark
You must be talking about the No Homers.
I think MTA could get the subway up as far as St. Albans without too much political opposition. As you get closer to Gelen Oaks, though, the loudmouths get more politically powerful, and it takes a lot more to buy them off.
Hmmm. Are you talking about a take-over of the LIRR line there? That got me thinking of the earlier plans for a "super express" on the branch through Locust Manor. It would have been feasible only if there was a train capable of co-existing with the LIRR service. That's a damn busy R.O.W. I don't know if it could be shared. To cut it off completely and shunt all the LIRR branches there (Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, Long Beach and Bablylon/Montauk) through the line through Springfield Gardens would be really pushing it.
Unless you're thinking about putting a subway under Linden Blvd? THAT would really change the face of that part of Queens. Connecting with the Archer Avenue line, it would do a great deal to improve the conditions there. Be good for Jamaica too.
Probably because it's impossible for a subway under Hillside Avenue to run through St. Albans.
Right now all Queens Village has is one LIRR stop, non-ADA. The residents need and would like subway service. As you progress through Hollis though, you get closer to the NIMBYS.
--Mark
On the real, they do NOT have enough rail and have to depend on buses, especially those on eastern Queens. However people won't be satisfied so if that's how it is then tough let them stay with no subways and it will let them know what they're missing out on.
I have news for you. Queens is famous for having "councils" who pretend to represent the borough. When AirTrain was debated the Southeast Queens Concerned Neighbors had 24 people who didn't like the project pretending to represent their neighborhood. They did not represent the neighborhood (esp. since the airline paid to truck in guinea pigs to the hearing).
The "Civic Congress" of which Trent is Treasurer, pretends to represent an aglommeration of homeowners' associations. In reality, it wouldn't surprise me if the only people who share his opinion are his chihuahua and a few buddies who serve as President and Vice President. Most homeowners in his "constituency" wouldn't know who he is if they tripped over him, never mind actually knowing what he advocates on their "behalf." It's pretty laughable, all in all.
But he is entitled to express his opinion, of course.
And what is the big deal about Archer Ave being a bad bet? If not for Archer Ave, them Downtown Jamaica would not be like it is today, a gleaming mix of office buildings, brand name and small buisness stores, and first run entertainment at a huge movie complex.
"And what is the big deal about Archer Ave being a bad bet? If not for Archer Ave, them Downtown Jamaica would not be like it is today, a gleaming mix of office buildings, brand name and small buisness stores, and first run entertainment at a huge movie complex."
I agree with you.
However, I do wish the MTA could extend the lower level (the J subway) another several blocks at least, if not more. The loss of subway service to 168th Street (it ends now at the level of 153 St) is the source of a legitimate complaint though we shouldn't take it too far). Extending the J some more would help revitalize an area where there is still some blight further away from the Parsons terminal.
The E was designed to be extended to Rosedale via the LIRR. It would be nice if the curving tunnel could be extended a bit more, and perhaps one or two more stations built in that direction. This would help bring subway service to a neighborhood that needs it, and never had it before.
While it IS a disappointment, I agree with you they could of left the J terminating at 121 St and do nothing about it. If it at LEAST went to around 168 St, then it won't be as bad.
Damn I wish I heard Mr X speak, as edwards said he was explosive and used profanity, Kool-D I hope you didn't use any profanity LOL ;-).
However, the Borough Prez and other groups, like the Straphangers and Congresswoman Maloney's office, along with Sheldon Silver's office, have been doing a lot of outreach, and the Task Force is still active. So this hearing will certainly function as designed.
But you guys should go.
I have submitted written testimony already.
I'd say that's an argument that could backfire. It's entirely reasonable to fear that money spent on the SAS will just disappear down a rat hole a la the Beame Shuffle. Transit funding for Sunbelt cities, in contrast, is almost certain to be used for its intended purpose.
New York can go to HELL, but Orlando's got four jets overlying 24 a day. Oh yeah, sorry ... Rush didn't bother to approve this liberal claptrap for release ... Clinton's fault, sorry ... and HEY ... Osama is living in Tenneesee ... whoops, they NEED the bucks.
So, that's why the tornado hit in Tenneesee.......
Didn't know Shrub can control the weather.
And, to be "on topic"...
Baltimore will complete the entire Baltimore Rail Plan (more subway, LRV lines) before the SAS sees a train.
The SAS plan a few years back included only the "stubway." The two most notable public comments were that it didn't run the length of Manhattan, and that there wasn't a station at 116th St. Both have been rectified. So I wouldn't say that public hearings are, by definition, dominated by NIMBYs.
This is one project I don't think NIMBYs can kill--although there are plenty of other factors that could.
Check out the story on the SAS in today's Daily News. Look at what it says. Look at what it doesn't say. Look at what the headline is. It isn't "East Side Hell! LIRR to Grand Central Without Second Avenue Would Jam City Residents."
Only reason that "stappies" are invited to hearings is that they ante up more CASH for polticos than Bombardier ... C'MON, New Yorkers! When someone's in your face saying "I don't remember how to GET there and so far, ain't seen anything larger than a $5 ..."
To quote the movie, "SPEED" ... what DO you do? WHAT do you DO?" :)
If you ain't paid MORE for the politico, what DO you do? The PROPER answer is a Class *A* felony. :)
I agree, they shouldn't keep this cherade going wirh the SAS if they put it aside for the FOURTH time, then you know it wasn't meant to be and people will be stuck with the M15 on the far east side with no other option in TERMS of riding public transportation.
4) Conspiracy: If ESA goes ahead and at least the northern half of the Second Avenue does not, no one should believe that this wasn't the plan all along. Is it a coincidence that ESA is going first, and now they are saying they are out of money.
If THAT IS THE CASE, then they obviously weren't serious about making the full length 2 Av subway to begin with but in the past there were plans where north of 63rd was going to be built and then connected to Broadway while it would make more sense to just build it full length. IMO, the line should be a 4 track trunk line in the first place it adds more capacity and would provide faster service and sihpons riders off the Lexington Av line thereby reducing the overstuffed crowdingf there. If you look at the M15 that is a OVERWORKED route in the first place, basically known as the busiest bus route in the country.
I will be at the SAS hearing at Bowling Green today. For anyone else who does not know me, I will be wearing a blue coat, white shirt and LOUDEST MOUTH. And everyone is welcome at some interesting pictures I took that show NYCT a lack of oversight in their management and operation of the largest railroad network in the country. Stations Department, in particular, should be interested in what I have in store.
See you there my Brighton buddy and other Subtalkers who may be attending also.
The closest subway exit at Bowling is the P/T booth where you get out at the center of platform from the Uptown train, not the escalators going down then up.
It should be pointed out, by the way, that even the aborted 1970s plan was not 4 tracks.
I would hesitate to criticize the project as now proposed in a public hearing. Remember, those who want the money to go elsewhere are looking for an excuse to kill it.
But I will point out that the RPA proposed a route across 43rd Street to New Jersey to link into the SAS. It would go down Second Avenue, then out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Branch, to bring NJT riders to Grand Central and LIRR AND MetroNorth riders downtown.
The EIS rejects the spur from Grand Central, on the grounds that it couldn't supply as many trains traveling as few stops as the Lex, so Grand Central commuters would not use it. But that is because the suburban service would be jamming on the same line, and making all the same stops, as the city service for neighborhoods up and down the East Side.
If the line was four tracks S. of Grand Central, with the Grand Central spur the express, then MetroNorth commuters would take it instead of the Lex, freeing up even more Lexington Avenue capacity. Moreover, only the stretch from 42nd to Delancy would have to be four tracks. The "local" tracks could be connected to the Nassau Loop, with the "express" tracks for the suburbanites traveling on to Water Street and Brooklyn. The RPA proposed both connections, but they also proposed just two tracks, leading to the EIS dismissal of their proposal.
That's exactly how I constructed it in my BAHN layout of the SAS.
Express maniacs won't want to transfer to a local; they'll stay on the 4/5.
But the local stops aren't terribly close together, and many local passengers will find that they're closer to the 6 than to the SAS, even if they're east of 3rd.
I do realize that there is no funding available right now for a four-track line. That doesn't mean that no funding will ever be available. IMO, the line should be constructed as a two-track line under either the east half or the west half of 2nd Avenue, with stations spaced reasonably for local stations. That way, at a later date, the two-track line could be twinned under the other half of 2nd Avenue and a full four-track local-express line would result.
But from all I've seen, the process has progressed beyond this stage, and the only chance of this happening is if the line is cancelled (for the, what, fourth time?) and pursued again in another few decades.
You sure got that right!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The increased crowding on the Lexington Ave line and the lack of development on the entire East Side of Manhattan in the No Build condition won't be discussed?
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_132071810.html
(click on the "Marlie Hall reports" link)
I'm speaking today, I'm usually on the straphangers board under the same name, but I finally got my password back on here and thought I'd share the info on here too. I'll have a blue suit on and my name's Pat. Hope to see many of you there!
You can have the RF window, I will look at the NYC skyline at night (still dark at 6 AM at that time in February)
A lot of us Subtalkers will brave the cold (hopefully not too much snow) and do the railfanning thing.
We will know the date a least a month in advance, GET READY FRED!
BTW: hope the Fred and Bob show will be a huge success this weekend in the city of Angels, when is the tour coming to NYC?
Does East 241st st have as much ridership as Main St or Jamaica Center? Clearly not. And when the #5 trains have to start and end at East 241th st, where do they have to go to lay-up? There is no direct yard lead from 241st, the yard lead is facing north at 238th st. So, under the old system, the #5 train would have to go to East 238th st, then the T/O will have to go to the other side to put-in at 241st. Pain in the ass as we call it.
One stop short to create better service on the #2 and #5 lines by a quick put-in or discharge at 238th st won't affect overall service on the East 241st st branch. I could see your gripe if the #5 train started/ended at say, Gun Hill, but the #5 specials cover about 95% of all passengers on that branch seeking a one-train (not one-seat I might add) ride into Manhattan's CBD.
Yes I do, I also heard that part of the reason involved budget cuts by PATURKEY(politics and rail transit on topic can mix!), of course why else would they do that for years and just decide one day to cut service
241st street has more riders than 238th Street(Nereid should just be confined to east of WPR, while 238th should be west, look at the building addresses)
Actually, the #5 line modfication was the only service "cut" from NYCT on that day (1994, IIRC), to me it was to improve service to the 241st st terminal, since more people use 241st than 238 as you correctly mentioned.
On a bus subject, I believe that more 40/41 buses from Mount Vernon should go to East 241st st.
The Bx41 would serve Mount Vernon better, it has Metrocard, and it may be running 24/7 soon!
Yes it was axed in the budget cuts BUT it was also done to relieve congestion at 241 St since it was so similar to Flatbush Av, 2 tracks, 2 lines and trains would get backed up.
I agree with whoever said that a westward extension across 125th St would be desirable. Clearly the alignment has been designed to make this possible in the future, but let's get the main part of it built first. For a project so-often delayed, obviously there's a large contingent who'll never believe it till they see it. Same deal concerning a possible alignment to Brooklyn.
I've finally been brought round to AIM's point of view that express service, as a time-saver, is over-rated on most routes. Even on a pretty long run--say, 168th/CPW to Euclid Avenue--you'd be surprised how little time is saved by the express vs. the local. The main benefit of express service is that it doubles the tph. I am not sure that the projected ridership of the SAS justifies that. And it's worth bearing in mind that the projected SAS stations are farther apart than on most of the older lines.
It's my view too, but David Greenberger is the most articulate expounder.
Though on the Lex if I'm going downtown at 59th I will often take the stairs down because the odds are in my favor that way. But at places where I have a choice between local and express, I will almost always take what comes first.
Given that they've learned a lot from the mistakes of the early 20th century, I wouldn't be surprised if the SAS gets from 125th to Wall faster than the 4/5. No sharp curves, modern signaling system, etc. Also, of course, no station with the immense on/off traffic that GCT produces.
I'm surprised that a station on the LIRR tunnel east of Penn Station hasn't been considered for a Second Avenue connection. Something like Woodhaven on the Brooklyn Branch.
1. How many people passed the last open competitive T/O test?
2. Of these, how many were called from the list?
3. How long did they have to wait from the day of the test until the day of hire?
4. Down to what exam score on the list did they reach before they stopped calling from that list?
5. The current open competitive exam notice states that a promotional exam is being given as well, and that "the names appearing on the promotion list will be considered first..." Was that true last time as well?
4 - Since they usually attempt to exhaust the list, they probably called down to whatever the passing score was (70? 75?).
3 - A minimum of 6 months from day of test to hire, but probably closer to a year for the first person to be called. With a Promotional this time, they can start calling people provisionally within two months or so from the promotees, so plan on much longer for O/C list to start getting called.
1 - Somewhere between half and three-quarters of those who took it.
2 - Probably all those who passed the test AND met all the necessay requirements.
You left out the needed question - Of those called from the list, how many were actually hired? Somewhere in the area of 2500 were hired. Being called from the list does not equate with being hired. People do get disqualified for medical reasons, background checks, no apparent reason at all and a host of other reasons.
IIRC, about 12000 people passed the last test, 8000 of which continued to show interest.
I don't see the TA breaking policy and giving a simple test to their current employees. Their promotionals usually require knowledge of the title the promo is for (at least of later tests).
If you have enough seniority to pick a two tripper(second trip to New Lots) on the 4 next pick, take it. Those are great. You should even have time to go to Mosholu for a bite to eat. You'll log much less cab time than you would on the 6. The 6 line is not so great on weekends anymore. Many jobs are 6:15 cab time AND A LAY UP!!! Compare this to the 1 line, where you log about 5:30 cab time, and a lay up. I'd rather work the 1 based on these numbers. But it's too far from home.
Management is great on the 4 line. The PM T/D is a good guy. So are the TSS's. Maybe you should look into WDL one or two days a week, as long as you don't have to do three trips.
"You do your job, I'll do mine."
Easy cure for stress. :)
And the T/Os with a real bad attitude I made sure to hold the doors more than 10 seconds.
The higher you score, the sooner they'll call you. Last test was given in the winter of 2000, and the first class was hired in the winter of 2001.
I know one T/O who has had several conversations with the Union about jumping to the B this summer. I remember when I told him, "Hey, looks like another summer of driving to the Bronx". He said, "I'm calling my Union". As much as I hate paying the tolls, gas, and dealing with traffic, I realize that I make so much more than most Road Extra T/O's in the B, so the TA is kind of helping me cover my expenses. One day on the board has just paid two weeks of tolls.
Everything else is penalty work.
People who don't, its hell. GOs can easily make the trip upward of 3 hours.
R-32
It's true that Lower East Side community groups have long argued for the line to be "cheated" eastward to better serve Alphabet City, and I expect that comment to be made at the public hearings. But the MTA is well of that argument, and I doubt that it will carry the day. The transfers to the B/D/F/V are too important.
Houston and Second Ave.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
subway grrl
--Mark
If you proposed it now (though no one has ,,, yet) you could use the V train to run some sort of bizarre loop from Houston-2nd to 14th-8th -- I'd love to hear the transfer announcement at 14th St. and Sixth Ave. -- but that would eliminate the option to send the V to Church Ave.
I would have no problem painting late at night or weekends in largely unobtrusive locations.
Any suggestions?
R-32
Other 007 films with some scenes on trains were:
-You Only Live Twice (the Underground private subway car)
-Live and Let Die (NYC subway entrance to 2,3 lines at 125th st. And the final sequence with the guy with the metal arm.)
-The Spy Who Loved Me (Moore gets bitten by Jaws)
-Octopussy (the circus train)
And did Sean Connery starred in another film with the same train "Murder on the Orient Express"?
Wow, Total Victory? I haven't heard that kind of rhetoric since Communism in the former Soviet Union.
Of course, should they have problems they will blame it on interference from the U.S. capitalists.
Sorry to make fun of a bad situation, but I couldn't resist. Shoot me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Seriously though this SARS has gotten that bad over there in the far East and now it s a mandatory procedure, at least for now.
Chaohwa
Now really, if someone were to offer you a free trip to Taipei, you'd be off in a flash, SARS or no SARS. Just think about being in a place where all the chix are "mystical."
It's not so new, having been there since 1936 -- just another thing the Grand St. whiners failed to realize in 2001.
Whining got the largely redundant Grand Street shuttle put into service. Squeaky (subway) wheels get the grease.
If Grand only had scissor switches, then the B and D could of terminated there and the 'silly' shuttle wouldn't have came to light. You think that's bad what about the moronic shuttle bus from Dekalb-Canal, just a waste of operating costs.
These losses are particiularily grevious as WAYNE was the last open Reading RR tower and BROAD contained a huge 131 level US&S model 14 machine. Moreover, unline ZOO or STATE or DOCK, which have similarly sized machines, BROAD was virtually unchanged from its configuration in PRR days. Many times I had been tempted to venture up the spiral staircase and visit BROAD, but I never felt enough urgency.
I am still unsure why SEPTA made this move as we all know they have no $$ and it didn't seem to save them any manpower as each tower has been effectivly replaced by a dispatching desk on a 1 to 1 basis. Furthermore, WAYNE and WIND were essentially rebuilt about 10-13 years ago to CTC the entire Reading division and probably had quite a good number of years left in them. I do not know the location of the new dispatching center, but there is a chance that it might be located in the old Wayne towre building, but I highly doubt it.
With NORTH PHILADELPHIA teetering on the edge of closure, Philly has gone from a surviving bastion of tower oprations to a virtually wasteland in under a year. With the demise of SEPTA's tower system only the LIRR remains as the last tower controled railroad in the nation.
Why do I not think this is a good thing for Long Island?
I do agree there are some drawbacks, which you have pointed out.
CSX controls most of the East Coast from its control center in Jacksonville. Amtrak controls most everything on the NEC from 30th Street Station.
If LIRR decides to go the same route eventually, I'm not going to cry about it.
Will any of the SEPTA towers or their equipment, like the US&S machine, be preserved for a museum?
NJT rebuilt its Hoboken Terminal Tower in 1984 and both Grand Central and Penn Station are controled by onsite control centers. The Amtrak Philadelphia terminal is controled by the CTEC 5 desk situated right above the old PENN tower office and Washungton Union Station is controled by the recently modernized K Tower.
Computer network technologies might actually make "towers" a feasible. Exemplified by MNRR's SS75 in New Haven, the whole system is basically run of windows NT PC's, but the SS75 operator can tap into the feed of the entire New Haven line and see the status of the entire railroad. It would not be a great leap to have auxilliary control stations where temporary operators can log in and out of control as they are needed. This would have on having to staff the interlocking 24/7, would would allow for flexibility to handle peak loads where the normal dispatcher becomes over worked. As the whole system can be run off of a PC hooked into the signaling network, you no longer need a central dispatching office to keep costs down. As railroads will always have distributed personel points for yard operators, MoW or C&S crews, the ability to have any one of these placed double as a part time control station should not be ignored.
Anyway, there are more than a few towers that will probably not close. These include SS75 in New Haven, K Tower at Washington, Lake St and Jackson St in chicago and F Tower in Fostoria. Most of not all of these have been converted to computer based video game style interlocking machines.
Given the amount of photos of realtively obscure stations that are in existence (such as Westbridge on the LIRR), I'm a little surprised that no one has a photo of this one.
About Canal Broadway being called Broadway - yes that is true. The tablets said "Broadway" and the icons were "B". The tile has been covered and recovered and ultimately removed - BUT - there IS still a vestige of it. The pattern in the passageway from the BMT to the IRT station still contains the "Canal Broadway" 1918 Vickers design. And yes, some of the original tile is still there, alongside faithful recent recreations.
wayne
Apart from the general trend of closing Queens stations, it used to be a transfer point to the Rockaway line. When that closed, the Woodhaven station's fate was likely sealed.
If the sidewalks were re-done at some time since the station's closing, all traces of the entrances probably would have been hidden beneath the new concrete. I am sort of surprised that the entrances were not retained as emergency escape stairwells.
wayne
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_19989.jpg
So where does the underground station, which is being discussed on this string, fit into all this? Were there TWO Woodhaven stations? Was there one on the Rockaway line and one on the Brooklyn-to-Jamaica line?
Also, I recall that one day in the summer of 1972 when I was in junior high, my mom was driving us somewhere along the Van Wyck when she stopped off at the Stevens Dodge car dealership on Atlantic Ave in Richmond Hill. While she was inside, my brother and I wandered off to explore the neighborhood for a few minutes. We wandered down into an underground LIRR station, which was freely accessable by stairs from the street. The station was extremely dark, dusty and spooky, and appeared to be abandoned. Could this have been the "underground" Woodhaven station in question?
Can someone also tell me where the above-ground elevated station would be located, in relation to Stevens Dodge and the underground station that my brother and I explored that day?
2 ran underground along Atlantic Avenue All-The-Way-From Flatbush Ave to just past 120 Street where it came above ground to enter Jamaica Station.
The 2 lines intersected on Atlantic Ave around 99-100 Sts. At one time there was a connection for trains coming from Flatbush Ave to turn south onto the Rockaway Line. The ROW is now a yard for a school bus company. Once upon a time there was a doorway for people to go downstairs and watch trains going back and forth. I don't know when the stairway was sealed off. But it was several years after trains no longer stopped there.
What a rush! To stand there as trains go by at 70mph! I want in!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As Douce Man mentioned there were two Woodhaven stations, both of which are abandoned now. The Woodhaven station that started this thread (the abandoned underground one on the still in use Brooklyn line), is not the one that the thread turned into (the connecting above ground one on the abandoned Rockaway line).
The station you stumbled into was more than likely the at the time still in use underground Woodhaven station that few photos of exist. If it was 1972, it was indeed still an in use station, dim probably because it still used incandescent bulbs (much like many subway stations used also at the time). It was freely accessable because all LIRR stations are freely accessable, you don't need to pay a fare to enter LIRR stations. You either buy a ticket at the station to give to the conductor on the train, or buy it on the train if there is no ticket office (or in current times no vending machine or ticket office). The fact that it was little used and a freely accessable underground station also probably contributed to it's demise. I couldn't imagine a someone waiting alone there for a train, much less a woman alone, in a dark, little used underground station that was freely accessable to anyone.
I read here that the LIRR used to have a police officer on duty in the station during the few of times each day that trains were scheduled to use it.
You're right, I've noticed that too. Maybe there have been some incidents at the station.
Actually, I have used the East New York-Atlantic Ave L connection as late as 11:30 at night and I have seen the police car parked between the ENY station and the Atlantic stairway.
Is that because East New York station is considered dangerous, or it is simply a convenient place to have a unit stationed for quick response elsewhere.
Actually, I think the area's starting to improve a bit. Although I must say, that like you, I've not minded using the LIRR-L connection either.
All of the Ronkonkoma trains end there, as that's the electrification limit. Only a few diesels head further east.
Good point. It would have to be a lot busier to make it attractive to anyone at all. Yes, clearly a chicken and egg problem.
I always look for it when I'm passing by on the train. I like the idea that once upon a time it was normal to wait on dimly-lit platforms. It was part of the experience. What could happen...?
After Chambers Street it's probably my favorite "subway" station. It's unique. I like the simple design of it. It's on the only commuter railroad line to come into New York City but not Manhattan.
(On what I believe is the fastest scheduled intra-city, uh, intra-boro railroad passenger service. Faster then on the LIRR Mainline through Queens, faster than the M.N. Bronx services, maybe even G.C.T. to 125th. Yet it is underutilized. That's not right.)
Be nice if Woodhaven could be re-opened. The neighborhood missed out by not having the LIRR row used for the airport link. I think Woodhaven would be considered a place that is worthy of keeping up. For one thing, plenty of people ride to Forest Hills and Woodside from Long Island. Woodhaven has plenty of potential. And it would be good to make this railroad line host viable active communities. The effects would ripple up and down the row. Would people be willing to pay the higher fare to get to downtown Brooklyn? That's a good question. At least, it would be a small but definite plus for organizations considering opening up for business there. I think that would be a relaxed commute, if I lived in Woodhaven and worked on Court Street or MetroTech. There's always seats on the Brooklyn trains. I'd get a Mail-N-Ride automatic monthly ticket and never even think about fumbling for my MetroCard. Walk over to the staion on Atlantic Ave., bam E.N.Y., bam Nostrand Ave., boom, Flatbush Terminal. A brisk walk up the Avenue, or jump on a bus, or a stop or two on any subway....I'm at work. It'd be the best commute in the city.
The neighborhood missed out by not having the LIRR row used for the airport link.
I agree totally. The Rockaway line was the one seat ride to JFK that everyone is takling about AirTrain lacks. IF they had not abandoned the Rockaway line, both the LIRR AND THE SUBWAY could have both had a one seat ride to JFK - they just threw it away.
The LIRR could have abandoned it's Service east of Howard Beach, and still given that over to the subway system. The LIRR could have run as it had from the mainline at WhitePot, down the Rockaway line making stops at Rego Park, Brooklyn Manor/Jamaica Avenue, Parkside/Metropolitan Ave, Woodhaven Blvd/Atlantic Ave, Ozone Park, and once at the Liberty el continued Nonstop on the center tracks, and then diverged off and into JFK. They could also have made some connection at the mainline coming from the east, so Jamaica trains could also have accessed the Rockaway/JFK Branch opening it up to all of Long Island and the city.
The subway A train could have used the outer tracks and come off the Liberty el just like it does now stopping at North Conduit, Howard Beach, and tghen also divere off the ROW to the Airport. The C train could have run like the A train does now to Far Rockaway.
Were these people blind back then when they abandoned service? How could they have let such a valuable and useful line meet the fate it did. It boggles the mind. There would be no need for Airtrain now. My plan would only have required an eastern flying connection at Whitepot Junction for Jamaic trains, and flying junction at Howard beach for both the LIRR on the center tracks, and the A train on the outer tracks, along with the route to the airport itself. It's a real loss.
My plan would only have required an eastern flying connection at Whitepot Junction for Jamaica trains, and flying junction at Howard beach for both the LIRR on the center tracks, and the A train on the outer tracks, along with the route to the airport itself. It's a real loss.
just a thought
Possibly. East New York and Nostrand Avenue seem to do okay, especially with reverse commuters. One thing that might be a problem with Woodhaven is that it's fairly far from the nearest subway station.
Well, I think that type of utilization on the LIRR city lines should be encouraged. Again, I think the Flatbush Terminal line is shockingly underused. If Woodhaven were to re-open I feel it would make the branch much more useful for city folk as well as LI commuters. Someone mentioned that it is far from subway connections. I think that is a point in its favor....but that means there would have to be more development at the stations. Esp. ENY and Woodhaven. Make them better destinations, people will be going there. Woodhaven could use a neighborhood-style refresh anyway. But the basic pattern of the streets is sound. It could handle a higher residential density. Say, clustered around the station so neighborhood NIMBYs would have less to bitch about.
I mean, Woodhaven should at least be at the level of a Kew Gardens neighborhood.
Can you explain what you're talking about? Aren't there free transfers and the 20% bonus, so that bus + subway costs $1.67? Even round trip is only $3.33.
Each MetroCard fare paid on the subway comes with one free transfer to the bus.
wayne
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Uhmm, I know. Everyone is so picky. When you are walking here:
it feels like a forest, and I don't care if it's a residential neighborhood, when you are standing on the ROW and this station:
it is secluded and deserted, and no one can see you. By using "forest" I was just using a play on words.
Geesh, everyone has to be so technical.
john
Actually, the Rockaway branch was never "formally" abandoned, that is why the rails were kept in place, unlike other "formal" abandonments when shortly after they remove the ties and rails (like the LIRR Wading RIver Branch, Central Branch, etc). I guess it's safe to say though that the Rockaway branch is "abandoned" even if not formally...no trains running through there in the near future either physically or politically.
john
john
Also at Jamaica Ave where Brooklyn Manor was, the LIRR line is above ground. IIRC the grade elimation project along there was somewhere (I think) in the 1910's. The next time I'm over there I have to look at the date stones.
Yes, it is 1956 (1958 is a typo). LIRR service was truncated to Ozone Park on October 2, 1955, at which time LIRR service betwwen Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park also seems to have ended. IND took over in 1956.
Also at Jamaica Ave where Brooklyn Manor was, the LIRR line is above ground. IIRC the grade elimation project along there was somewhere (I think) in the 1910's. The next time I'm over there I have to look at the date stones.
You may be correct, I don't know when the grade crossing elimination project happened on the Rockaway line. The LIRR is indeed above ground at Brooklyn manor, but the high level platform was removed in 1958 and changed to a low level platform.
The grade crossing project I mentioned earlier at Woodhaven station on the Rockaway line was indeed done in the 1940's as part of the Atlantic line grade crossing elimination project, not the Rockaway grade elimination project, which was indeed done much earlier.
On May 8th, 1950, a major fire destroyed significant portions of the [Jamaica Bay Trestle] structure. The LIRR was not in solid financial shape at that time, and decided not to rebuild the line. The LIRR had been trying to sell the Rockaway Beach branch within the City limits to the New York City Transit System (and later the Authority) for many years.
On September 5th, 1952, the TA purchased the Rockaway Beach branch and the line in the Rockaways within the City limits from the LIRR for $8.5 million, considered a "steal" at the time. On June 12th, 1952, replacement of the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay began. The TA gave a target date of July 1st, 1956, for the opening day. The IND Fulton Street Line would connect to the Fulton St. El east of City Line, and at Rockaway Blvd, a 2-track connection to the new IND Rockaway Line would be made. The original plan for the connection with the Queens Line at 63rd Drive would not come to pass. LIRR service to Rockaway Park via Far Rockaway ended on October 2nd, 1955. Between October 3rd, 1955 and June 8th, 1956, the elevated trackage in the Rockaways was converted for operation by the IND. The terminal station at Mott Avenue was severed from the LIRR. Former LIRR stations at "The Raunt", Goose Creek and Hamilton Beach were eradicated when the IND took over.
Despite a strike at Westinghouse that threatened late delivery of electrical equipment, the TA met its milestone. (The electrical equipment was borrowed from the Dyre Ave line). On June 9th, 1956, the first IND clearance train left the Fulton Street El bound for the Rockaways. On June 28th, 1956, the first official train left Howard Beach at 5:30pm, dressed with a "Rockaway, Here We Come" sign. It was not of the standard R-10 types; for this occasion, the first train would consist of newer equipment, the R-16s, even though they didn't provide normal service on the line. The R-10s couldn't operate on the line initially because of the power equipment problems as a result of the Westinghouse strike; standard IND R-1/9s provided the service for the first few months. These additional R-1/9s cars needed to be fitted with windshield wipers, in addition to those cars already providing D service over the Culver Line in Brooklyn. Initial R-1/9 service had speed restrictions due to the power "shortage".
For a time, the Rockaway Line was considered a separate division of the NYC Transit System, called the Rockaway Division. Until the mid-70s, an extra fare of 15 cents was collected at Broad Channel. While the E train provided service on the line, it was the longest rapid transit run in New York City (over 36 miles); in the late 50s, some said this was the world's longest rapid transit run. The extra fare was required until September 1st, 1975, when the fare became 50 cents anywhere on the transit system.
Mott Avenue was not yet open when IND Rockaway service began; the temporary terminal was Beach 25th St / Wavecrest. Mott Avenue opened in June of 1958. The remaining portion of the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch north of the Fulton Street El was abandoned by the LIRR on June 8th, 1962. While talk of resurrecting this line for JFK airport service surfaces from time to time, the ROW north of the Liberty Avenue El continues to remain unused to this day.
--Mark
I never knew that, I figured it was because no one could be bothered removing them.
Douce, I tried to answer your question three times....LIRR service was cut back to Ozone Park on Oct 2, 1955, at which time LIRR service between Wavecrest and Rockaway Park (via Valley Stream) also ended. The IND took over in 1956, a total of about 9 months or so.
...into the woods we go...
Some parts are fenced off but we still found our way around by just getting do a street, cross the street, and rejoin the unfenced ROW. =)
wayne
Woodhaven station looked like a cross between Beach 90-Holland on the IND and Locust Manor on the Atlantic LIRR line.
wayne
-Mark
There is also another great color photo on page 76.
As for Hamilton Beach, it wasn't wood or concrete. There's a photo from 1952 on page 33-34 that shows it as a low level dirt/cinder platform. I couldn't find anything on Broad Channel or Howard Beach.
As for Aqueduct and North Conduit Ave, they are original LIRR platforms (just like Wavecrest to Rockaway Park). I still don't know why some stations like those got concrete platforms (with the exception of Woodhaven which got it's concrete platform built by the Pennsylvania RR when they put the Atlantic Branch underground), and others kept the old Platforms (like Brooklyn Manor, Parkside, Broad Channel, etc.
wayne
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=undefined&item=2414503391.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
They don't look like any PCC cars I know off.
Umm... are you joking?? :^)
At one time, New Jersey was laced with many trollies. General Motors bought the operators out bringing in buses...just like NYC. Some of the old trollies survived...as part of peoples homes and diners. Mr. Tandy would have been far better off with electric buses running the catenary line...of course the wires are unsightly and restrict truck height. In Dayton, Ohio, the system runs these buses with a 32 foot turning radius competing with street traffic..no tracks. CI Peter
BTW, who were Marvin and Obie?
-Robert King
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
Thanks for responding and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
John
---Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the great misnomers of railroading is the one that commonly refers to the rail as iron. Once upon a time rail was made from iron. Before that it some of it was made from wood with strips of iron laid upon the top of it. Today though, rail is made out of steel. It has been rolled from steel for over one hundred years now. Nonetheless, the rail will probably continue to be called iron long after I’m dead and gone. Main line rail is frequently referred to as the high iron as it is generally heavier rail that stands a little taller or higher as it were, than rail used in the yard or on industry track. An improperly lined switch is routinely referred to as a bad iron. The iron term is also carried over to the very name of this little column as you have likely noted. Think about it though, doesn’t the term “high iron” sound better and flow smoother than “high steel?” Even though Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band did a song called “Twin Ribbons of Steel”, I still think high iron just sounds better.
From the advent of the steel rail used to replace that which was formerly rolled from iron, there has been continuous and extensive research done to improve the quality of the component steel used in the rail making process. The metallurgy of the steel used to make the rail is has been studied, researched and improved significantly over the years. Today’s premium rail is far superior to that which was produced just twenty-five years ago. It comes delivered with a harder head for longer and better wear. It’s not just steel anymore.
Rail comes in different weights determined by the yard. For example, 119 lb rail indicates this size of rail weighs 119 lbs per three foot section or yard. The higher the weight number, the heavier the rail. And the heavier the rail, the higher or taller it stands; hence that popular railroad slang term, high iron. Also, the heavier the rail, the better it wears and longer it lasts. The kinking in the rail that can develop under intense summer heat is also reduced. This is not to say that it won’t kink because it does. But it tends not to happen as commonly or as bad, especially if the roadbed and track structure including rail anchors that help keep the rail from running is well maintained.
Friend and former railroad Roadmaster Mark Lynn forwarded the following information on rail expansion.
“The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00000645in/in/deg. Doesn't sound like much but when you run out the numbers it comes to .405504 ft/mile/deg. Still doesn't sound like much, only about 5". Then multiply by 40 degrees and you get a piece of rail that has grown by 16.22 feet in that one mile. It's not at all unusual for the rail temp to go from say, 40 deg to 80 deg on a spring or fall day. Remember that on a sunny day, the rail temp can be significantly higher than the air temp as well.
It has to go somewhere. In the old days, that growth was taken up by joints in the rails and sun kinks (oops, thermal misalignment is the correct expression these days) were pretty uncommon. Today, with a well-maintained railroad not having any joints perhaps for several miles, where does it go?
As an engineer, you've probably noticed that the track seems to get just a little squigglier in the summertime. Some of that growth is being taken up in the tie plates, since they are not a precise fit with the base of the rail. That's typically what you're seeing there. At the bottom of hills and sags, the rail tends to get bunched up as trains coming down the hill push rail ahead of them and trains climbing tend to push it downhill as well as they fight for traction. If the ballast section is not sufficient or if there has been track work recently and the ballast is not fully compacted, that's a likely spot for the rail to head for the ditch. This may happen suddenly in front of a train, under a train, or in extreme cases, by itself. It will also want to pop out of the high side of a curve if the ballast section is thin.”
Mark is correct in the comment about the rail appearing a little more “squigglier” in the summer. In fact, it often looks like cooked spaghetti or a thin stream of water rippling in the breeze. The ride is also noticeably rougher as well. Many railroads apply speed restrictions of some nature on extremely hot days. CNIC has special instructions in place that requires freight train speeds to be reduced from 60 to 50 MPH when the temperature is 90° or higher and on subdivisions where the normal timetable speed is lower, maximum speed must reduced by 10 MPH but not lower than 30 MPH. Amtrak must reduce from 79 MPH to 65 MPH.
For years rail was rolled into thirty-nine foot lengths. This length is a direct contributor to harmonic rock (rock and roll as it is often called) that requires Engineers to minimize operating in between the speeds of 13 and 19 MPH on jointed rail. Today, a greater percentage of the rail that is manufactured is rolled in lengths of seventy-eight feet. When manufactured, rail is hot rolled from ingots. It is not cast in forms with molten steel. If you look at the side of rail, you will see numbers and letters on the web. These numbers include the weight of the rail and the year it was rolled. Some rail includes the name of the steel company that produced it as well.
Rail that is a few years old is actually better rail than when it is brand new. As locomotives and rail cars travel over the rail head, the steel in it actually hardens. A common term in the industry describes it as “wear hardened rail.” However, over a period of many years, the head can get too hard and such problems can develop as corrugation. This creates and rough and uneven surface on the ball. From years of tonnage rolling across it the ball will also flatten out and become misshapen. Other problems can crop up with rail as it ages such as internal cracks.
Jointed rail is rail that is joined together by the use of nuts, bolts and angle bars (the bars you see in between the joints on the sides of rail). It tends to be more maintenance intensive. Those joints need far more attention and maintenance to keep them riding smooth and to help keep the rail from warping. The nuts and bolts can work loose causing play between each rail in the joint. This can cause the ends to get slammed by the wheels passing over them thus battering the ends of the rail at the joint. Welding the rail eliminates these joints. We will get into more about welding rail in just a bit.
Jointed rail is also prone to pulling apart. Rail expands and contracts with hot and cold weather. As the joints begin to wear one of many factors may occur, the bolts within the joint begin to deteriorate from the motion of the rail and start to crack and eventually break and fall out. If one comes out it needs to be addressed but is not an immediate danger. There are usually four to six nut and bolt sets holding each joint together. Nuts may work loose and back off the bolts. This may create the potential for the bolts to come out of a joint. With less nut and bolt sets to hold everything in place, the remaining sets take on greater stress. Factor in the motion within the joint and you can see problems will develop. When one of these occurrences takes place, it can create the likelihood of the joint pulling apart. These are referred to as pull-aparts and stripped joints.
The nuts can work loose and back off or unscrew themselves from the bolts with the vibration of trains passing over them. They need to be checked and tightened periodically. If they come completely unscrewed, this can cause the bolt to work itself out of the hole in the rail and angle bar and fall out leaving the joint less secure. Again, one bolt missing won’t cause a derailment, but needs to be addressed. One less nut and bolt set creates more stress on the remaining sets.
Both welded and jointed rail also take abuse from flat spots on wheels. A three inch flat spot on a wheel rolling at 50 MPH is equivalent to several hundred thousand pounds of pressure hammering the rail. This hammering can cause internal failures in the rail which lead to breaks.
Another enemy to rail is spinning wheels. Locomotive wheels that are spinning on the rail can and will burn the rail head. I am acquainted with several Engineers who have spun the wheels so bad they burned completely through the ball of the rail and into the web. The web is the staff portion of the rail that connects the ball to the base of the rail giving it the “I” appearance when looking at the rail from the end. When rail is burned this badly, it is ruined and has to be replaced. Trains cannot operate over such burns. Small burns while hard on rail are not detrimental. Bigger burns may cause a speed restriction to be placed on that portion of rail but it can remain in service until this burned portion can be cut out and replaced.
Good draining, well ballasted and well maintained roadbed are keys to maintaining long rail life. If the roadbed is in good shape, the rail will last longer. If the roadbed under the rail is allowed to deteriorate, mud may begin to pump up through the ballast and weaken the structure. The ballast can no longer help hold the rail and ties in place as it is being fouled and then forced out by the mud which then begins to act as the ballast. The mud cannot support the track structure adequately and trains traveling over such a section can force the entire structure downward from the weight. While very flexible, this action may cause premature wear on the rail. The rail itself may begin to weaken as it is getting insufficient support from underneath.
Over time, creosoted wooden ties begin to weaken and deteriorate. There is a micro-organism that attacks treated ties helping to promote failure. As ties deteriorate, they loose their ability to hold the rail in proper gauge. One or two ties in a segment are no problem. But numerous failing ties can be a serious problem. Ties that rest in mud or are subject to very poor drainage also fail prematurely. Now couple failing ties to being supported by mud and this formula may allow the gauge of the rail (56½ inches) to slip. The rail itself may move laterally and/or vertically. And the two rails might not move together when the action occurs. Severe differences between the movement of the rails can lead to derailments. If nothing else, it leads to speed restrictions being placed upon the track.
Even under the best of maintenance, ties also don’t last forever. This is a prime reason railroads undertake routine project tie replacement programs. Usually every so many years, a high production tie gang will work their way across a route and replace ties.
Back in the dark days when roads like the Rock Island, Penn Central and Milwaukee Road were in dire financial straights, track maintenance was sacrificed to reduce operating costs. These lines experienced severe deterioration of some of their routes. This deterioration led to weakened track structure resulting in reduced train speeds. These roads were not alone though as some other lines also reduced track maintenance to save money. Where bad track develops, problems like reduced train speeds and derailments normally follow. Fortunately, the industry seems to be long past those days. Today most of the industry spends, or perhaps reinvests would be a more appropriate term, significant sums of capital into the physical plant.
One investment in the physical plant is the extensive use of welded rail. Welded rail, known as continuous welded rail (CWR), is often referred to as ribbon rail. It appears like a long ribbon of steel. There are two methods in which rail can be permanently joined together. The use of very high electrical current to weld rail is known as flash butt welding. The flash butt process is nothing like the arc welding process that uses current and welding rods with a welder carrying a bead to create the bond. A large welding machine using electrical current pulls the rail together and uses large copper ingots to transmit the current to the rail creating high temperatures to heat the rail to a point the ends get extremely hot and very soft and pliable. The rail is permanently joined together using the steel from the rail ends themselves to create the bond. At the last moment of the welding process the rail is pushed together to fuse it tightly. This causes some the heated material to bulge out all around the weld itself. This excess is chipped and later ground off to make a smooth and even bond.
One of the biggest private contractors that welds rail for the industry is Holland Company. Right before I joined the rail industry in 1978, I worked for them and learned a great deal about the process.
New or relay (previously used) rail is first prepared for the weld. The web at the ends of the rail that will be in contact with the copper ingots of the welder are first ground using a grinder to shine up the surface. This creates a clean contact point. Used rail that is to be welded is first tested for flaws and once deemed good to use is then cropped. Cropping takes the old ends off the rail removing any battering and also ridding the rail of the old bolt holes. This step is accomplished using a rail saw which cuts through the rail. The saw and blades used are nothing you will find at any home supply stores. Once these steps are completed, the rail is now ready to be welded.
The welder is placed onto the rails to be welded and the two pieces of rail are pulled together. Once everything is properly set, the process is started and the welder begins to do its thing. The action taking place sounds a little like some of the sounds from an old “Frankenstein” movie, lots of electrical humming with some hissing and popping. Sparks will fly out as well.
After each weld is completed (a process taking several minutes), excess steel and slag are knocked off and the weld is magnaflux tested to assure it is a quality weld. Once deemed a good weld, the welded joint is ground smooth all the way around the rail, top to bottom and both sides. Each weld is assigned a number and this number and the date of the weld is marked on the rail and recorded in a log. Should this weld fail in an inordinate period of time, the failed portion will be cut out and sent back to a lab for analysis to study and determine what caused the failure and how to prevent such a failure in the future. They are trying to discover whether it was a manufacturing flaw within the rail itself, or a problem with the welding process or perhaps a combination of both. I guess this would be considered post production research and development. From what I was told by CSX people, they follow the same sort of guidelines with their rail welding plant and process.
Holland has set up permanent rail welding plants for some of the railroads on railroad property. In the past, Holland has provided management and some of the help to operate these plants in conjunction with the railroads. In the case of the portable plants Holland will set up at a specific location, often near where the rail will be installed. In the case of the portable plants, the contracting railroad will hire Holland or another company to perform a specific number of welds over a defined period of time. Holland provides all the management and most, if not all of the help required to complete the project. The contracting railroad may or may not provide some of the labor. Once the project is completed, the plant is buttoned up and shipped back to the home shop or sent directly to another project.
In my days at Holland, we had portable plants in British Columbia and Quebec in Canada, plants in Kansas City, MO, Savanna, IL, and two permanent plants, one in Colorado and Texas. An in-track welder hauled in a former passenger car was also in use in Southern Illinois. Another portable plant had also just returned from Surinam in the jungles of South America. Other permanent plants had also been set up by Holland for railroads on their respective properties and operated directly by these railroads with technical expertise and equipment provided by Holland.
Rail is welded in high production plants of fixed or transportable locations. Totally self contained plants can be transported from job site to job site all across the globe. In track welders are also used. These on-track, self propelled vehicles can weld rail in place right on the roadbed. Or through the use of highway tires can travel along side the right of way and weld rail lying next to the location where it will be installed. These vehicles can be quickly placed on or off the track and can move to different job sites quickly. The in-track on rail welding truck was developed by Holland with the very first one constructed while I was employed there. Like everything else in the industry, the in-track welding truck has evolved immensely since that first one was built in 1978.
To learn more about Holland and the rail welding process and its evolution, I highly recommend visiting www.hollandco.com.
Oftentimes jointed rail is welded while in place on the right of way. A sufficient amount of spikes are pulled allowing the rail to be raised using track jacks. The nuts, bolts and angle bars are removed and the rail ends are cropped. Sometimes they entire joint is simply sawed out without removing the angle bars and bolts. This whole segment is just cut right out in one piece. The new ends are pulled together, prepared and flash-butt welded. As they crop the ends of each rail where the joints are being eliminated there becomes a deficit of rail. A length of rail is then added as required to fill the gap and welded into place.
The other method commonly employed to weld rail uses heat from a combustion source and incorporates the use of filler material to bond two pieces of rail together. This process is known as thermite welding. The filler includes metal shavings and gunpowder (to assist in creating sufficient heat) among other material. Flash-butt welding is considered to be the better of the two processes.
Thermite welds are generally used in the field to make repairs such as a length of rail that has been changed out. A new piece of rail has been cut in to replace a portion that has broken or developed a defect. If a new insulated joint associated with a new or existing signal is installed, it will be field welded into place. The same occurs should a new switch be installed. The process takes longer to set up and actually complete than does flash butt welding, but is more practical in certain applications. A railroad’s own welder (the employee not the machine) is employed for field welds. Rail ends will not necessarily have to be cropped as the filler material used will fill the gaps such as those created from bolt holes drilled into the rail.
Even though over time both may fail, thermite welds tend to be more prone to failure than flash-butt welds. From a personal standpoint, I have witnessed more failed thermite welds than flash butt welds. However, from a practical and economical standpoint, they are far more practical in certain situations and applications that flash-butt welds.
Welding rail provides many benefits for railroads. Eliminating joints reduces the required joint maintenance thus saving money and time. With fewer joints to maintain, less people are required as is less material. Welded rail also reduces warping of rail and battered ends. Fuel savings are realized as there is less resistance in rolling. Jointed rail creates friction and rolling resistance. Welded rail is friendlier to the neighbors as with fewer joints there is less noise. Wheels hitting joints do make a great deal of noise.
“Clickity-clack, clickity-clack.”
Rail also wears from the rubbing of flanges on the wheels against the inside of ball of the rail, particularly on curves. Railroads have attempted to address this problem through the use of flange lubrication. There are several different methods used to lubricate flanges and reduce or minimize rail wear. Flange lubrication systems are often applied to locomotives. They apply a thin layer of lubricant to the flanges of the locomotive wheels to reduce wear to both the wheel flange and rail head. In track lubricators are employed at some locations. These are devices mounted onto the track structure that apply lubricant to the flanges of wheels passing over it.
Some railroads use a lubricant applied directly to the inside of the ball of the rail. This is accomplished through the use of a track lubrication applicator mounted on hy-rail equipment such as a modified pick up truck. Such a truck will travel on the rail and apply a thin layer of lubricant as it travels the route. The Illinois Central was a big subscriber to this method for years.
While good drainage, well ballasted and well maintained roadbed are boss to sustaining longer rail life, there is still more that can be done to achieve ripe old age for the rail itself. Most railroads also subscribe to a program of rail grinding. Rail head wears and loses it shape over time from heavy tonnage that pounds over it. Grinding the rail head reprofiles the head of the rail (known as the ball) returning it to the original profile which will increase rail life. Properly profiled rail also offers less rolling resistance thus lends to fuel savings.
There are several outfits with whom the railroads contract to reprofile rail. These contractors make use of self contained trains that travel the rail to grind it back to the required profile. These trains may be pulled by a regular locomotive or a power car designed to both power the equipment and pull the train. The power cars often have some rail grinding equipment mounted to them. These power cars have cabs with the controls to operate this like a train. It can pull the grinding train from job to job just like a regular train at speeds up to 50 MPH.
While actually performing the grinding and reprofiling the rail, these grinder trains operate at very slow speeds. Ground material does fly out and can also start fires along the right of way. Fire trains sometimes follow the grinder trains. These trains have a tank car or two of water along with a pump and a hose to spray water on fires that have ignited along the right of way. I’ve worked a few of these trains too.
The rail grinder trains do have a limitation in that they cannot grind switches. Usher in the switch grinder. These are self contained on-track machines used specifically to grind switches. They only grind switches and not rest of the railroad. They also travel from job to job on the rail. Like the power cars on grinder trains, the switch grinders have no suspension on them so as to allow them to properly work and ride the rail for the grinding application. However, they ride absolutely terrible when traveling from job site to job site. Having ridden in several of them over the years, I can tell you it is quite the rough ride too. They are real kidney killers
Now no matter how much money and effort railroads place into track maintenance, rail still wears out. There is no way around it. A constant barrage of heavy tonnage rolling across the rail at high speeds takes quite the toll on the iron. And when the wear has reached the point that no maintenance in the world can save it, the rail has to be replaced.
While a small gang may perform spot rail change out or the replacement of smaller segments, to replace miles of rail on a route require the use of a high production rail or steel gang to perform the task. Replacing rail is a very intensive project requiring the use of such high production gangs.
In the early spring of 1996, I had the opportunity and privilege of being assigned to such a project. In participating in this project, I was able to observe up close and personal, the steps and procedures used by a high production steel gang. I learned an incredible amount about rail and the change out process.
The portion of the Indiana Harbor Belt between Grand Trunk Tower in Blue Island, IL and Superior in La Grange (behind the EMD plant) is actually owned by CSX Transportation. The IHB has operated this portion of the railroad as its own for years as part of a deal made with the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad. At one time both the IHB and B&OCT were building parallel routes in this region. It was quickly realized both lines would not be able to survive with competing routes so closely spaced. The deal was struck for both lines to use a single route in this corridor. The IHB took over the operation of the completed B&OCT tying it into their own route. The IHB timetable and NORAC rules govern the line, which is also dispatched by the IHB. The B&OCT agreed to handle the maintenance and provide all the required track materials. Both lines use the entire line as needed with as many trains as they desire and require.
Today B&OCT successor CSX continues to provide the roadway workers, maintenance and materials needed to support the track and structure. There is one exception though, the interlocking plant at CP Ridge in Chicago Ridge. IHB maintains the signals and appliance within this plant, the crossing with Metra’s Southwest Services line (the former NS, ex-N&W, nee Wabash). The IHB signal department maintains this plant as part of a deal struck in 1994 that closed the tower that stood here and was staffed by a Norfolk Southern employee.
Clear as mud, right?
In 1995 it was decided by the powers that be at CSX to upgrade the rail and switches along the IHB route between Grand Trunk Tower and Superior beginning in 1996. In late February and early March, loaded welded rail trains were delivered to CSX’s Barr Yard from their rail welding plant in Georgia. These trains carry several miles of rail in 1440 foot lengths (or sticks) of continuous welded rail loaded into racks that are equipped with rollers to facilitate unloading. An unloading machine is part of the train and is used to pull the rail from the cars and drop it along side the right of way.
For this project 136 lb. premium quality, head hardened rail would be installed, some of the best rail money can buy. This type of rail will wear well and withstand the rigors of large volumes of traffic the IHB handles on a daily basis. The 78 foot lengths of rail were delivered new to CSX’s rail welding plant near Atlanta, welded into the 1440 foot sticks and loaded them onto rail trains in preparation to shipment to Illinois for this project.
CSX began dropping the rail along the intended route in preparation of the project beginning. The use of a work train with a CSX train and engine crew assisted by CSX Maintenance of Way employees handled this portion of the project. All other materials needed for this project such as tie plates, spikes and rail anchors will also be placed along the route in advance of the project’s commencement so that the crews will have all of the necessary hardware they will require to complete the project on time. They do not want the crews to be idled while awaiting the delivery of materials thus delaying the project.
The steel gang works on a very tight schedule. This group is CSX’s high production steel gang. All they do is pull old rail and replace it with new or relay welded rail. They do not change out ties or switches, they replace rail. This project must be completed on time as they have another project to begin shortly after this one, which I learned was a project on the former Clinchfield Railroad. So time is of the both the major factor and also the enemy.
In conjunction with the rail project, CSX also undertook a program to replace several sets of hand operated crossover switches and also renewed several road crossings. This project was rather huge. With such an undertaking, CSX required a curfew in which no trains would be operated on the adjacent track during the working hours of the steel gangs. A twelve hour curfew would be enacted daily Monday through Friday between the hours of 0800 to 2000 hours for the two weeks this project would encompass. This curfew would become quite the battle as you will read.
In part two of this piece, we will delve into the entire process start to finish, of the installation new rail with the CSX high production steel gang. This was an amazing process to observe and be a part of. It is my intention to try to give you as much detail and information as possible. I have numerous photos from this project and will post them at a site kind enough to play host them so you can observe for yourself some of what I will be describing.
I would also like to thank Mark Lynn for his technical assistance on part one. Mark checked out much of what I wrote to assure I had it all correct. And as you have read, he also supplied some very important information. In part two we may include some of his first hand encounters as well.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/Spiderman2/images/Spiderman2-2200s01.jpg
I like the cars.
The carbodies themselves remind me of the R32...
The doors remind me of the buses used on LI Bus...
The 3 square windows remind me of the ML Redbirds...
A weird hybird if I say so myself.
They are the same age as the Redbirds that I loathe. I hope Reggie Welch is burning in hell right now.
: - )
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Subtalkers criticize movie makers for making other systems cars stand in for New York, but it's the NYCT's fault for making it hard to.
CTA seems to be easier to work with than NYCT.
It's more difficult to use the New York subway for filming because it runs 24/7.
Maybe most people don't know R-32 from R-2D2 (wrong movie, whatever), but ain't no way that street is passing for New York. They should have stopped with the subway depictions.
Especially with the building address plastered everywhere. I can't read the street name (hopefully, moviegoers won't be able to, either), but #55 would be nowhere near West 29 St & 9 Ave.
I figured this out by doing a search of CVS stores in Chicago.
The car is a 2200-series (Budd, ca. 1969):
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/roster/2200.html
The filming took place last November:
http://www.chicago-l.org/news/archives/news11-02.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This reveals a sirprisingly large gap in the city's superhero coverage. Spiderman is confined to Manhattan below 110th, Batman has the whole city, but only at night and Superman is stuck up in Metropolis (a city envisioned by Nicholi Tesla taking up the whole area between Buffalo and Rochester) twidiling his thumbs as has city has been vacated due to the effects of urban blight.
He's probably still more effective than the TA with his "service".
Mark
So why not film the real NY and add a CGI elevated?
The R never goes outside.
Thought you'd let that one get by us, but I was too smart for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Anyways, there have been worse.
"Gay" and "ghetto" have got to be the two most commonly used words by people today who have no idea what the real meanings of the words are...
And, BTW, the use of Ghetto in modern day slang is pretty offensive to me.
Don't Care.
"And, BTW, the use of Ghetto in modern day slang is pretty offensive to me."
What exactly do you mean by that?
Assuming you mean because of the Jewish Ghettos.
The neighborhoods where poor minorities live also has the word ghetto applied to it correctly. Someone who is 'ghetto' merely follows the pattern of behavior that suggests a person is from such an area. If you find that offensive, it's your own thoughts.
Ghetto is one thing. Gay is somethig entirely different. 'Gay' twists the meaning of the word to make it offensive.
ACELA, you should apologize for making such an asinine statement.
--Mark
Guess the movies depictions are believable to even some NYers :)
(img src="address where picture is located")
(img src="http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ckder/IMG_2931.jpg")
Only when you actually write the code for the message post, replace the brackets with the angle brackets < >
Here is what happens when I enclose the code above with angle brackets:
Hope this helps.
Peace,
AN(cough)DEE
(a href="http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Atlanta/North/I85Crossing.jpg")Atlanta North Line crossing I-75(/a)
which produces the following result:
Atlanta North Line crossing I-85
I prefer this method because then the reader can decide whether to actually download the picture or not.
Chicago Blue Line Stop
All Chicago subway stations look like that. (Most of the system is elevated.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The thing is the automated annoncements on the L don't say Avenue, street, boulevard, or anything after the name of the street. For instance, the announcement at this stop just says "Chicago". I being a native Chicagoan have no problem with this. However, this confuses the hell of out many out-of-towners and new L riders almost every time I ride. There is a Chicago Ave. stop on the Blue, Brown/Purple, and Red Lines. The announcements should say "Chicago Avenue" or the intersecting street also like, "Chicago and Milwaukee" on the blue line. Many people exit here not knowing that they are on Chicago avenue, a mile or two from the heart of downtown Chicago.
The Blue Line station has to be one of the worst L stations out of all the whole CTA system. It is has that dirty, grungy feeling to it. Plus it still has those hideous "A" skip-stop service signs that are bright red in the background.
If you want to see an awesome Chicago Ave. station, go to the elevated Brown/Purple station. It is famous for it's unusually long platfroms that curves and is seen on tv a lot when they show the L, it used to be shown a lot on ER. The Red Line subway station at Chicago Ave. is also nice. It was renovated a few years ago and is modern, but in my opinion very nice. It went from grimy and dirty to bright, clean, and was made much bigger to handle its high ridership.
BTW, the continous platform is not at Chicago Ave. It is at Lake, Washington, Monroe, Jackson on the red line. And also one block west on the blue line at Washington, Monroe, Jackson.
I've always been curious - how does this platform work?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You could when I lived in Chicago in the late '70s and I believe that another SubTalker has posted (within the past six months or so) that you still can.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Digital has come a long way.
I was personally amazed that he says he hand-held the shot! The subway is brighter than it used to be, but it's still not well-lit to most photography standards.
It is pretty impressive though. I really never had no desire to walk it, but riding between Harrison and Grand on the red line is always fun. I always wonder why they wasted all that material and effort to build such a long platform that is 1/2 between stations and un-used. But the CTA has done some really stupid stuff in the past.
I must say though, I am impressed with how the currently administration got the massive amount of money they did for the Douglas/Cermak branch renovation. Also the way they are rebuilding it while service still runs 5 days a week is awesome. I have never seen anything like it. Completely removing a section of track early Saturday morning and having a new useable section in place for monday's rush hour is truly amazing.
At one time, it was probably used considerably, especially during bad weather. Instead of buliding long mezzanines as NY did (the closed one betwen 42nd and 50th Sts on the 6th Ave IND comes to mind), Chicago actually saved money by "simply" extending the platform.
--Mark
Oops, I think you mean between 34th & 42nd on 6th Av.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
--Mark
Yes indeed; there's an entrance and mezzanine in the middle of each block along State Street, without regard to current stop locations. There's a total of (I think) eight entrances between Lake and Congress Streets serving the four (historically three) train stops. Northbound and southbound stop locations are somewhat staggered, and, in a Chicago winter, it's desirable to come out onto the street as close as possible to one's destination; so none of these entrances is completely useless even if not directly at a stop.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Yes, we didn't waste our money on Large mazanines, because we really don't need them. The systems isn't that complex. 4 of the 7 lines connect on the Loop elevated. 2 other underground 1 block apart and of course the Skokie swift at Howard. Not too mention, if you want to wander around underground in Chicago, you can always explore the pedway. Speaking of which, I never really have used it much. I am downtown a lot but don't really see any entrances and exits for it. Although I have heard several times how large it is and a great way to avoid bad weather. Only time I ever see signs for it is when I enter Randolph Street station for Metra, there are signs that it is closed west of Marshall fields, which is right next to the Metra passageway.
But you can make your own judgements based on the map ... :-)
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
"I saw a mainline redbird yesterday."
In the above sentence, "mainline" tells you that it was a non-WF redbird car. It does not mean that I saw a redbird on the West Side or East Side IRT lines.
---Chapter 11
#3 West End Jeff
For some reason I am unable to show pics from nycsubway to this message board. I keep getting a broken link every time I try and show the pic here. Is it that I am unable to show them from nycsubway to this message board?
#9411 7 Flushing Local
That is because the address you are trying to show is the address of what ends up being an HTML page (via PERL script), not the address of the image itself. In order to use the (img src=) tag, you have to find the actual address of the image. This can be done by doing a "view source" of your above linked page and seeing where the photo is. I think they are all in the same place, so all you have to do is change a little something in the address that you linked and now you're pointing to the image.
---Choo Choo
The rest of the week is supposed to be crappy and I've wanted to get out there. Not going to happen on my days off apparently.
With that in mind I took the few good minutes today and walked down to the park and took these:
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Chuck Greene
How did you get on the ROW, through the wildlife refuge?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Taken from the park about 2 minutes south of Howard Beach.
EDIT: Nevermind, I checked my trusty map and I see that it is Spring Creek Park, and/or Frank M. Charles Memorial Park. One is on either side of the basin. Can you tell me which of the two parks you are taking these photos from?
Thanks!
---Choo Choo
Its right next to the train tracks (obviously) so whichever one you see on your map next to the line for the train is it.
(During the current midday GO, how often do shuttle trains run? Perhaps I should wait until after 3pm to get my photos.)
Its about a 15-20 minute walk.
That's the first pic, botched the HTML.
Larry
thinkin' of a new title...
Running express service that late is a consequence of not having split shifts. The TA has made a devil's bargain. It needs two separate crews for the morning and afternoon rush hours. Therefore, it has minimized rush hour service as much as possible but has increased off-peak service to keep the extra operating personnel busy.
The increased off-peak service can either be all local or express and local. The loading on the Flushing Line partially answers this question. Main St is the most heavily used station - by far.
Wait for ZPTO to reduce off-peak service. BTW, I've been on the late expresses - they are well used.
Express service is not needed past 8pm. It's ridiculous that people at 74th have to wait 10 mins for an overcrowded train, while Main St. customers are being served on 5 min headways.
Each rush hour period is approximately 4 hours long. A contiguous 8 hour shift would involve 4 hours of operating trains and 4 hours of some other activity. That other activity would be out of title. If that activity were paid less, I would assume that the T/O's and C/R's would insist on their title's full pay rate. That other productive work might become prohibitively expensive to perform with trained T/O's and C/R/s. Alternatively, that other productive work would involve an activity that was paid at a higer rate. I would assume that workers in the higher paid title would insist that any person performing their task should be have the same job title and pay. So, T/O's and C/R's would have to qualify for a higher paid title. Their 4 hour rush hour stint would therefore become more costly. The best compromise is to give customers a better grade of service during those 4 off-peak hours.
t's ridiculous that people at 74th have to wait 10 mins for an overcrowded train, while Main St. customers are being served on 5 min headways.
You've raised two points.
First, when there were split shifts and workers spread 8 paid hours of work over a 14 hour period, off-peak service was 12 minute headways with only local service. You should be able to do the math to figure out how more crowded trains stopping at 74th Street were, under those conditions.
Second, NYCT rebuilt all the elevated stations between 103rd St and 33rd St during the 1980's. The could have rethought and changed the locations of express and local stations. They did not. However, 74th St could have been turned into an express stop at that time. There are arguments pro and con for such a conversion. They appeared only interested in rebuilding the stations to their 1918 specs regardless of intervening usage patterns. After, a 4 year reconstruction period, they tried to bypass the Woodside station on a regular basis. Clearly, they did not plan ahead when they instituted the rebuilding project. Their lack of planning was further illustrated, when they had to rebuild the entire Viaduct in the early 1990's. There was major reconstruction for 8 out of 12 years. The net result was to come up with a configuration that exactly duplicated 1918's best guess.
Ah, I never knew that before. That explains why all of the stanchions are that new 'forest green' color. Though, the old brown color is still prevalent from a section stemming from the west of 33rd to Queensboro Plaza where it eventually turns pink.
You need T/O's and C/R's to report to the yard to prepare trains for service. Then they have to leave the yard. Make trips. Have a lunch break. Bring the trains back to the yard. Signs have to be changed. Passengers removed from trains going to the yard. Trains brought to and from the barn in the yard. There is so much work to be done, before worrying about crews working out of title.
The way I see it, you can run fewer trains(reducing congestion), eliminate 5 trip jobs on the 7 line(which is slave-labor), and actually provide better service for ALL, by ending express service(which benefits Main St. passengers only) by 8pm.
How can anyone even think of running split shifts? What would you do? Build military style barracks at terminals for crews to sleep in between shifts, and never go home to their families? What's next? Crews wearing adult diapers like production line workers in third-world countries! We can log 12 hours of cab time a day, dirty ourselves on the road, clean up at the terminal, and hit the road again.
You need T/O's and C/R's to report to the yard to prepare trains for service. Then they have to leave the yard. Make trips. Have a lunch break. Bring the trains back to the yard. Signs have to be changed. Passengers removed from trains going to the yard. Trains brought to and from the barn in the yard. There is so much work to be done, before worrying about crews working out of title.
Let's look at this from the customer's perspective. Productive work is defined as operating passenger trains in regular service. Assume that during an 8 hour day one permits 1/4 hour each for prep and finishing time, 5 minutes per hour for personal time and one hour for lunch. That takes up 2 hours. That means 75% of the day can be used for actual operating trains. What percentage of the work day is spent operating trains for T/O's and C/R's?
The way I see it, you can run fewer trains(reducing congestion), eliminate 5 trip jobs on the 7 line(which is slave-labor)
Is that 5 trips per hour, 5 trips per day or what? Please be specific.
actually provide better service for ALL, by ending express service(which benefits Main St. passengers only) by 8pm.
Clearly what one's perspective as what constitutes better service depends on one's point of origin and point of departure. If the post 8 PM expresses ran nearly empty, one might be inclined to agree with your assertion. My own anecdotal evidence is that there are significant numbers of standees on the late evening expresses.
How can anyone even think of running split shifts?
I mentioned the split shifts to illustrate the scheduling flexibility that they permitted. I did not advocate going back to them However, if the lack of flexibility results in running near empty trains sone other remedy would have to be found to reduce costs. Two obvious possibilities are part-timers and automation. Considering your charactization of Flushing Line operations as slave labor, I'd guess you would welcome ZPTO. :-)
Here's a random Q job w/ a put-in:
Works 8h34m; 3 local trips - BBC-57/7
Report 0405 @ Stillwell - 15 min sign on time
0420 - 0525 - get from Stillwell Station to Stillwell Yard, prep train for service, get train to Brighton Beach between 0515 and 0520
BBC - 0525 57/7 - 0610 Fall back one interval 57/7 - 0631 BBC - 0718 Relay 0718 - 0730
BBC - 0746 57/7 - 0839 Fall back two intervals 57/7 - 0856 BBC - 0943
49 minute Lunch
BBC - 1032 57/7 - 1121 Fall back one interval 57/7 - 1139 BBC - 1227 Relay 1227 - 1239
Scheduled ROAD time - 313 minutes (not counting MANDATORY "Be on train two minutes before scheduled departure")
Scheduled WORKING time - 378 minutes (still not counting those twelve minutes)
Time actually involved - 378 scheduled minutes + 12 "be on train" minutes (2 min x 6 trips) + 15.5 "walking" minutes (time to get from one end of train to other on populated platform while wearing uniform - 5 x 2.5(approx) + 3 for end of plat to BBC crew room) = 405.5
Time from report to clear - 514 minutes
NOTE - This is not my job. Do not look for me on these intervals. All scheduled times assume absolutely no problems during the course of the day. If it suffers the same problems I do, the second n/b trip is short by about five minutes and all s/b trips are short by about two.
For what it's worth, there are 5 roundtrips on the 7, each scheduled for approx 66 minutes; walking time is a bit longer, and it's possible to arrive on one track at Main St and find your next train waiting for you, with the starting lights lit, due to delays.
On the 6 line, during weekends, you do three round-trips Pel-BB-BB-Pel. You can't even leave your cab when you get to BB. You relay around the loop. Most jobs are written with 2hrs, 7mins as the round-trip travel time. The last trip is just 2hrs. And, most crews have a lay-up somewhere in there, all for about 8:30 PAY, 8:05 on the clock.
So, you're looking at 375 minutes of cab time, plus the lay-up and inconvenience of going to Westchester Yard.
On the 1 line, where you go around SF Loop and can't leave your cab, the round-trip travel time x's three trips is 340 minutes plus you probably get a lay-up or PI somewhere in between. All that for just 8 hrs pay. NO PENALTY TIME!!
Compared to that job on the Q, if you add up ALL the road+relay time, it's still a much better deal. I know T/O's who are major train buffs, who wouldn't even dream of jumping to the A division. I can't understand how someone can be a train buff his whole life, yet not want to say he operated every line in the system. This guy has 10 years, can pick the 7 line, and still won't transfer. When I asked him, "Why don't you try the A division for a pick", he responded, "TOO MUCH WORK". I'm starting to understand what he's talking about.
newyorkish.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"Photography in the subway, as defined by Rule 21 NYCRR 1050.9c, IS LEGAL."
On the back I would write the text of the rule:
"Restricted areas and activities. Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, or tripods may not be used. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance to the provisions of these rules."
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Jimmy
What comes to mind is the Mennonites who travel to the city in 'plain clothes.' They don't protheletise, they don't 'verbally assault,' they don't ask for money or shove 'The Word' down your throat. I give them credit for surviving through the mess knowing first hand how they collect funds for international Good Works. They should be an example for any religious denomination presenting themselves in our subways. CI Peter
It's always good to know which ones to hit up for dollar bills. :-)
Tom
CMSL caboose
Tuckahoe, NJ, station
--Mark
But why is the Corona Yard closing, and what will this mean for the cars parked there? When is this happening?
The upcoming GO this weekend is an indicator of the one of the major signal interlockings at the terminal. Face it, you can't ride the (7) anymore without seeing a construction worker along the line somewhere.
Why are the emergency windows immune? Different glass?
Toward the end, all the old push pull units had the gunk, except the emergency windows...
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
www.forgoTTen-ny.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=487959
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
0 (the zero)
East Harlem-bound T local train, stand clear of the closing doors, please!
Finding the place itself was a pain in the ass b/c there were no signs on the outside, took me 1/2 an hour when it was right there the museum entrance threw me off and would of thrown a lot of folks off :-\. I went around 7:20 and I saw fellow Subtalkers Kool-D, R30 and JerzDevl2000 there. Then we took a map of the proposed routings and we went in the forum and listened to what people had to say about it BUT I missed Kool-D's speech. Anyway they showed a map of how the T would be routed and it runs from 125/Lexington Av to Hanover Square with the Q being turned from the Broadway line using the 63 connector to terminate with the T. Funny thing was they shoed a map of what it would like with the Manny-B open and they showed the B,D,N & Q via bridge and the strange thing was that it showed the D heading towards the Brighton so it looks like the map for 2004 is already made but not out [if you doubt me, ask Kool-D and R30].
One person who went to the podium suggested that the line turn west on 125 St and go all the way to Riverbank State Park. Another person suggested that the 2 Av line be made 4 track then LITERALLY started to rant on the MTA’s incompetence and we started to laugh a little b/c this guy was ANGRY! So he talked about 2 Broadway and how it went $398 million over budget and said the MTA must stop these budget overruns from happening and he said nothing more true. Then he said that why isn’t there a provision to go below Houston [since originally it was supposed to go no further south than that] and suggested 2 MORE stops at 49/50 St and 79 St because its not right that people have a 14 block gap between 72 St and 86 St then he was finally done.
Now the next registered speaker took the cake here LOL. Ok he stated his occupation then he talked a bout a old friend of his and said that the East River should he dried up and build the subway there, man this guy was so funny but obviously he was serious and then rambled on other off topic things. The next speaker who was from Corona said that he was originally from Philly then lived in NY for many years, stated that he never had a car and said that he was a railfan for a LONG time and suggested that they shouldn’t waste any time with building the 2 Av subway & should start as soon as possible, which is next year. So when all the registered speakers were finished, R30 asked if the SAS was going to be ATO, Mr. Sussman [did I spell it right?] didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. Then when it was done we headed home on a R142A 4 train from Bowling Green then R30 got off at Borough Hall. Afterwards me & Kool-D went home on the Q express to Newkirk Av then parted ways.
Overall, I say the current plan doesn’t get any better than what is on the table although I question the fact that 4 tracks may not be possible for the SAS. I’m surprised more Subtalkers didn’t go unless y’all went there early. If anyone else went, tell us your observations.
And being for the SAS but against the MTA is against. The pols can just say we need to wait 20 years until we have a new agency, and then we'll build it. In the meantime, we'll close the Jerome Avenue line to reduce crowding on the Lex when the suburbanites want to use it at GCT.
In Favor - 18
Against - 4
Fence-sitting - 4
Complete nut-cases - 1
Of the eight politicians whoe were there (or sent representatives), 7 were definitely in favor of SAS, while the other got put in my 'fence-sitter' category. Unfortunately, that one was Mr. Silver (who was not there in person). Nothing in the prepared statement caused me to believe that he had an opinion on it in either direction.
Again, of the same eight, seven had nothing negative to say about the MTA in their oral statements. The holdout this time was Public Advocate Betsy Gottbaum, who took them to task over the recent financial 'shenanigans' and fare increase, saying that "the MTA has lost the trust" of NYers.
Of the four "Against"s, one was in favor of the Stubway, with surface transit improvements along the lower segment, as well as a MNRR and LIRR extension to lower Manhattan; one thought it a waste, since it amkes no allowances for diversions; one because it doesn't serve Queens (find my post in your thread on this hearing); and the last because it doesn't serve the Bronx and wastes money on 'frills' - nice looking stations, storage tracks at the 125 turn, etc.
The four 'hedge-sitters' would probably have gone into the 'In Favor' column had they actually said so.
For the later part of the meeting, I was out in the lobby area talking so you'll need the opinions of someone who sat through it.
But these self promoters are those who show up at hearings and opppose everything. That's why I think we'd be better off with referenda than with public hearings.
(In Favor - 18
Against - 4
Fence-sitting - 4
Complete nut-cases - 1)
Not bad for a public hearing. Especially since the press probably headed home after the pols spoke to write their stories.
Hey Larry, were you there at the public hearing in LIC for the 63rd Street line service plan where one of the speakers told Doug Sussman "I should beat your ass?"
I learned later that this guy was actually being nice - he said much nastier things at previous public appearances.
Outside on the sidewalk in LIC, he said a few harmless words to me about the hearing. I told him, "I assume you know what you're doing," and bid him a good night.
The biggest losers will be Brooklyn Lex Ave IRT riders because there is no relief for any overcrowding as no new free transfers to the second Ave line will open up, riders from BMT lines have to option to use the B and D lines to Grand St and transfer to the Tardy line for east side service, less congestion at Atlantic Ave but not much.
125th st will be a huge mess, not many riders from Bronx 4 and 5 trains will actually transfer to the "Tardy Local" unless they need to get to the Seaport or U.N. areas. Local 6 trains will see some improvement in service as they will be less crowded, save for the busy 68th st station because of Hunter College outside.
Well, they are not "losing," they are just not "gaining" as much.
"125th st will be a huge mess, not many riders from Bronx 4 and 5 trains will actually transfer to the "Tardy Local" unless they need to get to the Seaport or U.N. areas"
You don't have anything to support that statement, Kool-D. You skipped over "Hospital Row," for one thing (think how many people work there and how many people go there for appointments and diagnostic tests - even from the Bronx). And "Hospital Row" will be served by the Stubway, so you'll see the effects of that sooner than the full-length line.
It would be nice to have express service on the T line, but you're exaggerating the effects of not having it.
Then there are the domestic jobs on the UES, and the retail jobs further down (of course, that's have to wait for the full-length subway).
One thing that alot of speakers mentioned in one way or another was to start the building from the bottom up. While most used the staement "revitalizing Lower Manhattan" along with it, a few were a bit more blunt - build the SAS in such a way that the Stubway is an impossiblity. In other words, don't start from 125 and build the section to 63 St and then say "Oops, we ran out of money. You'll have to deal with just this."
It's been so long since New York actually has built a new subway line (as opposed to an el replacment in Jamaica or a connector to two existing lines through Long Island City) most people don't have the faintest idea of what the results would be. Getting the Stubway built would in all probability push people who live and work south of 63rd St. to be more vocal about extending the line all the way to Hanover Square.
I also question the high number of riders who will be using the SAS line (590,000 daily riders according to MTA estimates), the actual number may be more like 450,000, but I could be wrong.
There will be trackage to Queens. The line is designed to allow movement from lower Manhattan to Queens, and you can go to Queens from the UES by transferring at 63rd Street from SAS to the F train, according to the plan. Currently, the Queens to lower Manhattan tracks are planned as non-revenue only, but that could change in future.
The only option is to build a new line in Queens that would be served by the Hanover Square line, the Y.
By the time there's an SAS, QB will have CBTC and the line will be able to handle more tph.
Also, a QB to 2nd Ave connection wouldn't really be for additional riders. It would just be removing those riders transferring to the 6 at 53rd or riding the E all the way to downtown.
What are you disagreeing with?
I was replying to a posting that said that a QB connection to the SAS would be bad because it would overwhelm the QB line. I was saying it would be OK because it wouldn't.
wayne
His representative was using the opportunity to voice displeasure about perceived footdragging by MTA on the full plan (ie Silver does not want just the Stubway). What you saw was manuevering. Silver held up the entire State Budget for the SAS; he's for it, no question about that.
I think the game-playing is ill-advised at this point, but Silver may feel differently.
There is enough of a pro turnout, with little or no opposition, that it doesn't matter for the record.
So then after I arrived for the start of the 6:30 presentation, you missed my "tirade", and it was a good one at that.
So that made you feel good. Cool.
Let me take the devil's advocate position for a moment though. Just for the hell of it.
You have X minutes to speak (was it 3 minutes? Was it 10 minutes?)
You can do a tirade, or you can do something else with that time. Do you think a tirade was the best use of that time? Did a tirade accomplish your goal, and could you have done more good for yourself and others by a more constructive speech?
You can also turn in written testimony of any length (not limited by speaker time).
No one can "hear" your written testimony. I went to the hearing for one goal that I've achieved, to compare how NYCT lack accountability in their station operations, and in their protion of the MTA website. I provided the pictures, printouts, even took out "The Map" and a G line timetable to prove my point, and detailed to Mr. Sussman that the SAS cannot be started if no one is accountable for the work done properly and safely at the MTA.
I am pleased the the 63rd st stubway was transformed into a subway line on 12/01.
True, which is why you do both.
But don't underestimate the value of written testimony.
Peter Cafiero, who used to post here gave the visual presentation.
Another official I always speak to at these hearings, when I was telling him about my new career in transit and the subject of next year's B/D changes came up, said that the reactions so far to the switch seem to be good, and that Brighton riders actually prefer Broadway service. I was surprised, as I thought they would have become fixed to 6th Av. Also, the M cannot return to the Brighton because of the capacity, and that the difference between now and when they had the QB service, is that back then you had key bys! I guess stuff like that (as well as I guess many signals being slower now) is why so many services cannot be restored, and we are not aware of such things when we make all these suggestions.
That is the "working" map for the planning of the SAS. That means they can still make changes to that map at any time. The map, as shown in the SAS planning documents (probably what you saw), has been around for at least a year, and does not reflect anything the MTA may have been thinking about for the last year (specifically with respect to the Manny B reopening).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Very dissapointing turnout for such an important project, I will call the T line for TARDY.
That map was leaked to a Subtalker who posted it on-line. Any of us could have downloaded it and printed it out.
BTW, congrats to all for attending the hearing. You did a good thing. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Doubtful. By the time the SAS opens, the English language undoubtedly will have mutated to the point that there are more than 26 letters in the alphabet.
Just wanted to let you know I started a Transit website with pictures from the New York City Subway, Big Dig, Acela Express (1 Digital Video of that), and more. My website is www.nycguide.us
Have a nice evening.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
COMMENTS:
Do take into consideration those transit buffs without broadband. For instance, your NYC Subway page displays alot of pics on one page at the same time. For someone on dialup, this will take awhile.
Providing descriptions of the pictures won't hurt either. If someone is not familiar with the area, they will not know where the picture was taken.
Good job anyways.
Jimmy
That's what I meant by making them smaller "pysically", as opposed to using the browser's image width and height options.
He needs to make a smaller thumbnail you click on to get the whole pic.
If he doesn't go with thumbnails, at least he needs to display them larger than they are now.
Those that looked at the WMATA Greenbelt yard images I took would know that the 600 X 450 images rendered in a web browser pretty quick as the average size is 27 kb.
The raw images from the digital camera are uncompressed 1152 X 864 with an average size is 165 kb. After color correcting and resizing I set JPG compression to around 65% before saving the file. I would never apply JPG compression to an image that has not been resized down to a smaller size as it will usually degrade the quality of the image. The other advantage of resizing is it make the image sharper.
One of the things I learned early in it infancy of the web was to keep HTML documents small as well. Generally it is good practice to keep pages plus objects that render in the page to something under 60 kb.
John
The biggest problem is that it takes an excruciatingly long time for a page to download via modem. The pictures download in parallel, so if I want to see how one picture in particular turns out, I have to wait for all the rest of them, too. This is aggravated by the fact that the pictures are actually larger than they appear on the page. For example, on your New Haven line page, the first picture is coded to appear as 397x299 pixels, but it's actually 640x480! (which I found out by saving it to disk and opening it in Photoshop)
To make life easier for the bandwidth-challenged, you could create separate thumbnail images, say 160x120 pixels, and use them as links to the full-size images. Put a sentence or two of description next to each thumbnail. That way the pages will load pretty quickly so long as you don't put too many thumbnails on one page (say 10-12 max). Also, when someone downloads a particular full-sized picture, it will come up fairly quickly because it won't have to compete with the other pictures for bandwidth.
On my site I take this a step further and don't even have any thumbnails, just the descriptions. Here's an example with some pictures from Atlanta that I put online the other day. I don't actually recommend that you go this far; I do it this way because I'm mooching off my employer's Web server so I want to use bandwidth as efficiently as possible. But if you mentally substitute thumbnail images for my "[picture]" links, you'll get an idea of what I'm suggesting.
---Choo Choo
I told her I was going to have to post this question on the board hoping someone has seen this movie and knows what I'm talking about!
Ding dong the 20 min headway is dead, the 20 min... well you get the idea.
Have a good one
Not on nights or weekends.
I am trying to get a concensus for a paper.
Thanks I appreciate all answers.
(still waiting for my $10 from last week's evil MC)
In anyevent it has been a ho hum for me because I haven't used a token since the bus-subway free transfer was instituted.
Ah. An arriviste rather than a born New Yorker. (Either that or your parents never took you on the subway.)
This is all for a paper
I don't think so
I have used tokens in the past, but only ones that my parents purchased and gave me right before I was to use them. I almost never rode the subway before 1996 (I think there were YEARS where I didn't). In 1996, I had a student rail pass and didn't take any rides on weekends. In 1997, they moved to student Metrocards, and I used Metrocards for when the student MC didn't work.
The only time I purchased and used tokens was the two times when I rode the Roosevelt Island Tram in May 1999 and September 2000. In the latter case, I ended up with two extra tokens I had to use on the subway and I kept on forgetting to use (and I couldn't use them on Thursdays or Fridays).
So I guess I did use the token, those two tokens from RI that I used on the subway count in every way.
OH! I forgot when I wanted to ride the express bus with my student pass: Because I didn't have $1.50 in change I had to buy a token from the booth at Chambers (1/2/3/9) and use that for the $1.50 discounted fare.
Metrocard brought many great features such as bus to subway transfers, easier storage and the freedom form of purchacing metrocard via credit card at mvm's, at your local store, online and auto refilling for seniors and the disabled
Almost no one on Subtalk, because we all know how much money you save with Metrocard.
But in the real world, I still observed many tokens and coins being used. Though I admit coin usage on buses seems to be way down now that tokens are gone. The idea of using metrocard must finally be sinking in to even the most recalcitrant New Yorkers.
Chambers St. was also used as a setting for the 1955 movie "Somebody up there likes me", a biopic of the fighter Rocky Graziano. A young Paul Newman in the title role was there with co-star Sal Mineo. The real star of the scene was the BMT Standards, with car# 2354 where Paul and Sal boarded. The Chambers St. signs were covered and said 14th Street. Some extras were on the unused center platform as ordinary commuters. And yes, the original incandescent chandeliers were still working.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway, I think it was a cute article. Cool! Even my C.H.U.D. comment was used!
Yikes, what if Chambers St. had to be closed to all train traffic?
Oh well, they'll just have to send the weekend J's to Broad, and next year NOT terminate the M there middays...too bad, what a shame. < /sarcasm >
Seriously though, it's pretty sad that we'd have to have some tragedy happen to Chambers Street for the MTA to end this nonsense of terminating the M and J there.
They could always rip the middle tracks out then it has NO choice but to go to Broad all times ;-). Jokes aside I agree, it IS sad that such extreme measures would have to be taken to end the nonsense of terminating the J there. Heck I'd like to see the J headover to Broad since people lose out on the transfer at Fulton St; although riders heading toward Lex Av would still have a transfer.
Didn't hear too much Subtalkers bring this up but too bad Chambers didn't get a makeover when Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall did back in the mid 90's, shows that this piece of garbage that is a station was flat out DISSED!
Hehe, that's the same sugestion David Greenberger had mentioned when we were on the Eastern Division tour (if something bad happened to the middle tracks). It worked for Canal Street, trains can no longer terminate there. Terminating the weekend J's there was even more ludicrous!
Didn't hear too much Subtalkers bring this up but too bad Chambers didn't get a makeover when Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall did back in the mid 90's, shows that this piece of garbage that is a station was flat out DISSED!
You know what, I have thought of that. Most of the time when one station in a complex gets rehabbed, so do all of them. Actually Chambers got dissed twice. Brooklyn Bridge was renovated twice. Once when they abandoned Worth Street and changed the alignment of the station in the 60's (gobbling up onee of the local platforms at Chambers. The 6 now runs in the location of the former Broad Street Bound local platform at Chambers), and then again in the 90's, while Chambers was left to deteriorate further.
This is a V train to Jamaica Center Parsons Archer. The next stop will be Myrtle Avenue. Change here for the S Line.
It's hard to believe that it could possibly be even worse now.
I wish I could see it again to judge for myself.
IIRC the water problem seemed to be mostly on the north end of the east side of the station. I am assuming that your pictures are of the side platform on the east side.
wayne
The leaks over the northeast corner of the station are coming from ground water.
The leaks over the northbound platform at the south edge of the mezzanine are coming from a combination of sources - storm drains and also waste lines.
wayne
We all would have been better off not knowing about the waste lines. Thank you.
---Chapter 11
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
I remember when news was posted on here when waste flow was being dumped on the IRT Flushing platform at Times Square and the MTA was under pressure for correcting the problem. This situation is no different.
Somebody call Ralph Kramden. We need an expert on leaking waste lines and that expert is Edward L. Norton. And not the current Hollywood actor either !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup, that't the current Queens Bound track and local platform.
avid
wayne
Thanks for the link Heypaul !
---Choo Choo
Jeremy
Apparently the FARE INCREASE also applies to transit-folks emails.
Wonder if attaching a scan of fifty cents more will get it in... :)
I'll suspect he'll answer you tomorrow.
I have to disagree with you there Paul.
I hope it does prod the MTA to do a clean-up of the station and maybe do some restoration of the remaining side platform (It would be too much to hope that they would knock down the walls to expose the side platfrom on the downtown side).
While it doesn't have the "ambiance" of IRT Subway Station #1 - City Hall it does have it's own charm and it is a shame to see it deteriorate like that.
What platform? All knocking down the walls would do is expose what's left of it and give a view of the IRT.
The best they could (should) do is replace the ugly tile on the "new" wall with tile matching the rest of the station.
So what is wrong with that?
wayne
-The Peel
-The Odor
-The Stain
-The Crumble
wayne
Painting the ceilings brown didn't help; the mould ate right through it like rats thru cheese. The whole station's a moonscape.
wayne
This is misleading, at best and incorrect at worst. My understanding was that the side platforms and center platform were closed as excess when the Nassau Street subway was extended beyond Broad Street and connected to the BMT tunnels to Brooklyn. The station originally had five platforms (including the two side platforms) because it was a terminal station for several lines as well as an LIRR line before the Nassau Street subway was completed.
Perhaps you are thinking of some BRT service used LIRR tracks during a few summers back in the early days.
wayne
Close. The joint service from Broadway Ferry to Rockaway Park (later from Delancey Street, then from Chambers Street) was a joint operation of the LIRR and BRT, generally involving alternating trains of each road, according to Seyfried.
From 1913 to 1917 LIRR trains did indeed end at Chambers Street station. This was the LIRR's only entry into Manhattan other than at Penn.
One my true regrets in life is that I wasn't around to see those trains in use. But think about crowds of beachgoers leaving from there. Families, children running around, everyone laden with baskets and blankets and gee-gaws for the beach. It really must have been a scene. Got me wondering if the trains ran express through Brooklyn down the middle Broadway track. I could see people waiting on the local platforms watching the beach trains roll by.
However, express service did run right from the beginning. IIRC, the first ever run (steam) from Broadway Ferry made it to the Chestnut Street incline in 10 minutes and made it all the way to Rockaway Park in under a half hour end-to-end.
Must have been some great ride.
You ain't kidding. Steam? Wow. Ripping past all the stations, the buildings lining the route blurring. The whistle blowing...must have been a delight to that era's railfans. A steam powered super express special train down the elevated iron road passing over the busy streets through the heart of Brooklyn headed for the cooling breezes and refreshing waves of the Atlantic Ocean!
Oh yeah.
10 minutes!!! That train passed 15 stations in 10 minutes. That must have been one hell of a ride!
Still, a good, and long-overdue, story on the disgrace that is Chambers.
I thought that pre-Chrystie Street when the Nassau Loop was still in operation all 4 tracks at Chambers were in regular use, and perhaps also the middle platform.
The 1959 route guide posted on this site lists a West End local terminating at Chambers weekdays.
I'd have liked to see the station in late 1917. Middle of the Great War boom, the Jamaica line opened, the connection from upper Myrtle opened, the Manhattan Bridge connection funneling ALL 4th Ave service to Chambers St (including the Sea Beach line), plus the already existing service from Canarsie and Broadway Brooklyn. Must've been one BUSY place.
Between 1995 and 2001, all four tracks were in use at the same time. Midday J trains ran through (outer tracks) while M trains terminated (inner tracks). NYCT is planning to restore this service pattern next year.
Robert
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494286
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494416
Robert
avid
(This type of development is happening all over eastern Queens, for the most part beyond the reaches of existing subway lines. A it's also straining the capacity of feeder bus routes and making a bad parking situation worse.)
Here is the reality of New York City's zoning laws. You can build more density, on smaller lots, with less parking, than just about anywhere else in the country. So how come "conservatives" and developer interests continually blast New York's zoning laws as unduly restrictive, and blame it for the housing crisis?
Anyone here have an example of a place where, 10 miles out from the CBD, you can replace a house on a 50 foot lot with a six unit building with four parking spaces? Or, replace a house on a 60 foot lot with three rowhouses on 20 foot lots with no parking spaces, save the ones on the street? Where else in the region can you convert a one-family home to a two-family home just about anywhere?
If the suburbs were zoned like New York City, the entire housing shortage would disappear in two years. They aren't because the suburbs do not want additional moderate income households within their borders. Many of the conservatives who decry government intervention live in those suburbs, and commute in to work at the Manhattan Institute or write for the Post. Suburban zoning is the great "conservative" hypocrisy.
Liberals are hypocrites on housing too. If more government spending on housing made housing cheaper, we'd have the cheapest housing in the country. In fact we do, but only for insiders who get the real good government-related deals like Mitchell Lamas and succession rights in rent controlled buildings. The rest of us pay through the nose.
One more example that proves that the difference between a conservative and a liberal is not in how much goverment they want, but in where they want the government interference/spending to take place.
I subscribe to an upstate rural newspaper. It's amazing to hear the local pols there complain when the government spending THEY like gets cut.
And looking locally on SubTalk, even our resident conservative Californian wants government to subsidize service on a poorly utilized subway line in south Brooklyn that mostly serves low density housing.
The housing shortage in this city could easily be solved by expelling all those illegal immagrants who seem to get by just fine on $20k a year and still find money to send home
$40k is the povety line in NYC, don't make me laugh.
High density housing has it's place in area where thier is excellant mass transit such as manhattan, brookyn heights, fort green. Residents are either in walking distance or close to convient frequent subway service
areas such as sheepshead bay, marine park, si where a car is a neeeded, hgher density housing just causes stress, smog and parking problems. Take a ride over to bensonhurst in the summer. You couldnot pay me to live thier
Thier is no housing shortage. thier is a issue with people having the eduation to earn enough money to afford to pay thier rent. That is why it is so important to not overpay people for jobs such as S/A .
The money could be much better spent on educating out citzens and lowering taxes to attract more business
If you don't thing business choose to locate thier operations where it costs them 30% less to operate you are crazy
The city has to do something to stop the over developemnt and hotch potch development. the problem is that many of the new structures clash with each other in appearence and do not provide enough off street parking
As I said, exclusionary zoning is the "free marketeers" great exception.
Intersting proposal, one that would increase capacity on the Flushing Line.
Except that to get the 24 plus Flushing Trains per hour through the 60th Street tunnel, what is now the R would have to be diverted to the 63rd Street tunnel. And, therefore, what is now the V would have to be diverted to 8th Avenue, terminating at the WTC.
Problem -- this would shift empty space in the 63rd Street tunnel to the Steinway tube. The Steinway tube goes direct to Grand Central while the 60th Street tunnel skirts the north of the CBD, causing people to transfer to the Lex.
I like my idea better. Create a bus-only lane in each direction on the LIE west of the Clearview. The lanes would terminate with direct access to a bus terminal in Long Island City. Build a short branch off the 63rd Street line that would end at that same terminal. Run local buses in Queens north-south on the Boulevards, then express on the LIE to the bus terminal. There, riders would board subways that would carry them to Manhattan via 63rd Street, turning south onto the Second Avenue Subway. That's a way to get Second Avenue service to Queens without a new subway line.
Does this envision construction of a flying junction at QBP?
Are we certain that the platforms on the Flushing line can
be shaved back? Although originally constructed that way, they
have been rebuilt several times.
Arti
I am confused by your statement. The Flushing line has always had narrow IRT equipment. The line never had platforms shaved back further than they are now. At one time (prior to 1949) the Astoria line was also IRT size.
Tom
Do you have some documentation of the "separate filler piece" on the Flushing line or Astoria line stations. I used to regularly ride the Flushing line in the late ‘40s and early ‘50s and can remember no such strip. All stations did and still do have a lip that could be cut back without having a need to modify structural elements, and as can be clearly seen in this picture on the Astoria El the wooden platform is made up of planks perpendicular to the tracks, and the planks extend to the edge of the platform without any filler strip.
Tom
I'm curious - exactly how did this work? Was the filler strip bolted on, mounted on hinges or could it be lifted out?
The CA&E interurban line west of Chicago had a similar systems on its high-level platforms. The regular interurban cars were narrow to fit around the "L" but the line also ran freight trains with standard AAR width freight cars. The platform extensions simply had hinges at deck level and large "L" brackets under the decking to hold them horizontal. Every time a freight train came along, a guy riding the front deck of the locomotive (which was narrow) used a stick to push all of the filler strip leaves up and out of the way. Once in a blue moon they'd miss one... CRUNCH!
Fox River Trolley Museum has actually installed this system on its high level platforms, although they don't run anything that's wide enough to require folding the leaves back.
Frank Hicks
http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/worldsbest/subway/subway.html
Incidentally the info must be somewhat out of date, since they quote Paris fares in francs - the euro replaced the franc (and the deutschmark, lira, peseta, etc.) over a year ago.
7 out of 10 would have looked better.
But who cares what the Travel Channel thinks - we all know our system is No. 1.
A lot of other systems are prettier than NYCT, but when you're used to SEPTA, size alone is enough to make you jealous, what with our two line (three if you count PATCO) system. And on top of it, NYCT looks very clean when you compare it to SEPTA.
Mark
I hope you get chance to ride it someday.
Mark
That's very funny. Yes, LA has a more modern and cleaner looking system, but that doesn't make it better than NYC subway. How many other cities have expresses? 24/7/365 service to all but 3 stations? Such far reaching service?
If you're gonna use things like the 'sterile' appearance that characterizes these new faceless subways, then yes, NYCT is probably not a top 10 system. Of course NYC wouldn't be anywhere near the top 100 cities either.
I'm posting my thoughts based on the results of the rankings, but if you want to talk convenience, then I would say that a fair ranking should be based solely on ridership. This would be like asking every person if they think their system is convenient, and a person riding the system would be a "yes." If someone does not think their subway is convenient, then they obviously wouldn't ride. Thay way, Mosocw is the most convenient and NYC is around #5.
Most people in Moscow who don't consider the subway convenient have no choice but to take it anyway, as car ownership is very low by U.S. standards.
Granted, they did mention the strong points of each system, but I don't think that was their sole basis. A small system simply cannot compare to a large one.
There WAS some mention of speed and effcenicy, but that's not NYCT's strong point either.
Speed isn't, but NYCT is definitely the top US system when it comes to efficiency. NY uses it's fare to cover more of its operating costs than any other system (in the US). I don't think that any other system uses as much as 50%, NYCT is in the 60s.
Then how come Sao Paulo is on that list? They only have 30 route miles. I mentioned this before, it's pretty obvious how they came up with the seven cities to rank. Those seven cities are the most important and famous in the world.
Speed isn't, but NYCT is definitely the top US system when it comes to efficiency.
True, NYCT is more efficent in that respect. I was thinking of efficency in respcet to how many people use the system. This chart shows what I mean.
I don't tend to buy single fares - last Thursday when I went to London, I simply bought a one day travelcard from Birmingham Snow Hill - yes, from a station over 2 hours from London - it only cost me £19.45 too.
What I don't get is why Chiltern don't have a look at Midland Mainline's service pattern. Midland Mainline run fast trains which stop across the platform from slow trains at Leicester and overtake them. Chiltern could do the same at Banbury giving much better journey times from Birmingham and the Black Country whilst not cutting off people from small places in between.
: )
Mark
I was reviewing all my photos I took of Sao Paulo's Metro last week, and I decided that SP is my favorite subway system I've ever ridden. London previously had that distiction.
As I'm nearly an engineer, I'm very impressed by how the Metro was built and how it operates. I took a behind-the-scenes tour of the Metro where I saw the control center and a yard. Their train control system has been upgraded three times in the past 30 years to the most advanced computer software probably in any subway. There are huge Star Trek-like screens that show where every train is and how on-time they are. They have cameras that can estimate how many people are wating at a platform. The signal system can handle a headway of 70 seconds. I could go on, but I'd probably bore you all to death :-)
Not at all! I just expect people to root for their home subways. Sounds like you have a lot more to root for than us SEPTA riders do!
Mark
Shame London was only 4th... but I guess those trains in the deep tube lines do get a bit hot and cramped. Give me a Fast Amersham any day!
Their idea of what's cool is a bit much though - I mean, singling out Europe station in Paris, when there are so many more interesting stations...
Any nominations?
: )
Mark
Perhaps LA, I know the Red Line isn't completely useless, but it certainly looks that way at first glance. Plus they lost out big time when they didn't join the Blue and Yellow lines.
Hehe, in a few years, Seattle, with it's Central Link LRVs in the bus tunnel, one whole line that goes virtually nowhere, slowly.
Most of PATCO's stations look nice, and that makes SEPTA's look all the worse by comparison.
LA's red line isn't completely useless, but there sure is a lot more Los Angeles west of where the Wiltshire Boulevard branch ends. When I visited the La Brea Tar Pits it was a pain to have to get out and catch a bus the rest of the way. More important than mammoth bones, UCLA's campus is still further west in that direction, and a subway service to that large university seems like a good idea to me.
Mark
Mark
On thetube.com they reasoned that the London Underground closes between midnight and 5 am because of the two track system.
And lastly, the NYC subway is the only system that is either 3 or 4 tracks on most of the lines, which means that individual tracks can be selectively taken out of service while keeping the system running. As mentioned on thetube.com, which is the official website of the London Underground, they need the off-time from midnight to 5am to do repairs. Since LU is 2 tracks practically the whole way, there's no flexibility to close parts of the system while keeping it running.
You could say the same about London Underground. There are several stations served by both LU and another operator on the same tracks (eg Gunnersbury to Richmond on the District Line). LU is thus not distinct from main line railways.
PATH runs only 30-minute headways overnight
To be fair, you'd probably need more than that in London, especially on the tube lines through the West End. Anyway, the night buses are very good.
which allows them to take large sections of track out of service for maintenance when they have to.
It looks like similar single-track efforts would be possible on most lines in London. In some places there's even the luxury of 4 tracks!
The tunnels under the East River are all 2-track, and the MB is 2 separate 2-track lines. As important as the 4 track lines are the multiple routing options that allow a cross-river route and its associated links to be taken out of service without totally killing the whole line.
Examples this weekend: 60th St tunnel is closed with only moderate disruption; R goes down 6th Ave and N riders can switch to a 7 at QP. Also, MB south side is closed but Q trains can use the Montague.
Someone refresh my memory -- does Dayton have a flat fare? I've never ridden it myself.
Just to make a point, many NYCT lines run more often overnight then some cities peak service
All former Soviet systems are, as far as I remember, flat fare. This includes such systems as Moscow and St. Petersburg, and Moscow is the heaviest-ridership system in the world, though not as geographically extensive as NYC (they are considering a separate zone-based fare system for a new "light" metro line in Moscow to be opened late this year, though - but that is still to happen). Mexico City metro is also flat-fare (except, possibly, for one semi-suburban line), and its ridership numbers are also ahead of NYC. In both cases we are talking about well over 100 miles of flat fare rides. I am sure some of the other major systems have flat fares as well. Of course, so are many smaller systems (Montreal, if I remember it right, would be one). Incidentally, both in Moscow and in Mexico City the flat fare is a fraction of that in NYC (in Mexico it is MN$2 pesos - less than 20 US cents). And in Mexico (though not in Moscow) the fare is even "flatter" than in NYC - no bulk discounts, daily/weekly/monthly passes bus transfers, just a 2-peso ticket to enter (children under 5 exempt).
As for the 24/7 service, this IS much more rare (banned by Russian RR safety/maintenance standards, for that matter, if I remember right). St. Petersburg (the one in Russia), for one, could have used it, since, once they raise the bridges at night to let the ships pass, you now have to swim to cross the rivers, even though the metro lines cross the same rivers in tunnel.
Mind if I ask the year? Cause I think after '91 they went to a 12am-5-am. Now there are big gates on the BSS where the PATCO concourses intersect the Broad St and Locust St concourses.
I think Chambers has more charm than many other stations in the system. In case anyone else on the board is interested, here's the text of the email I wrote. Some of these thoughts I've posted on SubTalk before...
In Defense of Chambers Street, and New Proposals
Randy,
I saw your post on SubTalk requesting opinions about the ugliest station in the subway system. I post occasionally under the handle 'Keystone Pete'. As a daily subscriber to The Times, and as a "railfan," I do enjoy your column! I can't be at the station today, but I thought you should hear from someone who's not on board with the SubTalk consensus on the ugliness of poor, much-maligned Chambers Street.
Although it might win the contest for "most neglected" station, I think it has a certain beauty akin to that of an old ruin, or, more evocatively, that of a bombed-out European cathedral, post WWII. The high ceilings give the place a vastness and openness present in almost no other underground station. There are remnants of the BMT's terra-cotta decor on the unused side platforms which lend character. Yes, this station is in need of much repair and cleaning, but, really, most of the subway could use a good scrubbing and there is always mending to be done in many, many stations at any given time. I suppose you could say that I'm partial to this station since it still contains vestiges of the "glory years" (as if there really were any) of the subway. In its heyday, it was a BMT hub, and almost never empty (or so I'm told -- I'm only 33 and not a native New Yorker).
I would propose that the ugliest stations in the system are the ones which are the most utilitarian, and therefore completely lacking in any semblence of character. Candidates would include Lexington Av./53rd Street E/V Station, which is completely unadorned and always was, even before the current construction. Or how about any of the stations included in that misguided attempt to "make all the stations look the same" along the Broadway BMT -- the decor commonly referred to by SubTalkers as "refrigerator tile." Thankfully, in the most recent rennovations for the Manhattan stations on this line, the tile was removed and the mosaics rehabbed, but you can still see this boring, institutional, bland tile decor along the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn all the way from Union Street to Bay Ridge. Lastly, I'd pick any station in which that glazed orange tile exists, such as those on the 63rd St. line, our newest, or 49th Street on the previously-discussed Broadway BMT line (N,W,R). I've always wanted to rip those ugly bricks down. I'm sure you'd find some decent mosaics hidden there, which are much easier on the eyes, and less evocative of a modern high school hallway.
The New York system, having begun during the "city beautiful" movement in the early 20th Century, is the only one in the country with such a variety of styles, craftsmanship and artwork. However, being both the oldest and the largest, it is inevitable that at any given time, much of its infrastructure will be in need of some repair and cleaning. I've seen most other subway systems in the country. If you are ever in Philadelphia on the Broad Street subway or the Market-Frankford eleveated, or in Boston in their subway, think about Chambers Street again. I'll bet you a ten-pack of tokens it won't seem so ugly then!
Kind Regards,
Peter Farrell
It should be noted that I did correct myself in a subsequent email about New York having the "oldest" subway; that distinction goes to Boston, as we all know, even though that "subway" was really just a trolley underpass.
---Choo Choo
Heavy rail trains were running underground through the Tremont Street tunnel in 1901.
Also, is it possible to see any remnants of the out-of-service Boylston St-Pleasant St section today? If so, I'd like to peek on my annual Memorial Day weekend trip to Boston and Maine this year.
I think Randy was referring to stations in an ugly state of repair, rather than those that never were aesthetically pleasing. What Chambers St was, or could be again is a whole other matter. But right now, it's hard to deny it takes the palm for most dilapidated station--at least in Manhattan below 125th St.
http://mta.info/planning/sas/sas_contact.htm
Tuesday, May 13, 2003,
4 p.m.
El Museo Del Barrio, Heckscher Building
1230 Fifth Avenue at 104th Street Manhattan
Directions:
(6 )to 103 St;
M1, M2, M3, M4 or M106 bus
The Culver picture you posted is at the east end of the Ninth Avenue station (on today's West End line - W/M train). The portals are the entrance to the former lower level of the station. They're still there and look pretty much like the above photo still.
The FAS line uses two sets of hippos (R68's), however at around 10:30 every night, one of the two trains in revenue service uses the Malbone (SB Coney Island track), to Prospect Park and discharges there. The T/O then pulls the train to the Lincoln Road marker and goes home from there if his shift is done (after signing out, of course.)
So if you time it right, you can be on that train.
The tunnel was pretty busy up until about 1958 or so when the crossover was installed north of Prospect Park station. Prior to that, all southbound Franklin Shuttles stopped at the southbound platform, then proceeded south of the station, stopping on the local track just short of Parkside Ave. prior to changing ends and negotiating the crossovers back to the northbound shuttle (local) track at Prospect Park. Was fun to watch from the railfain window of a southbound Brighton Local (never Express, BMT Standards, of course) waiting for the interlocking to clear prior to proceeding on.
-- Ed Sachs
-Larry
http://www.culvershuttle.com/culver_today/pages/culver040.htm
As for the old Culver shuttle, portals are still there and the last time it was used in regular service was in 1975, which it led to 9 Av lower level. HOWEVER the last time a train really went there was the farewell to the R30 ERA fantrip in 1993.
Then you missed the Steeplecab Special fantrip last September. Our first stop was the lower level of 9th Ave. It was nice to be back after 9 years! (I rode the R-30 farewell trip, too!)
--Mark
Now, what's the best codec and settings to use for the web? These two are on the heavy side (4 and 6 meg), so I want to shrink them down without losing too much quality. Any suggestions?
Right now they're as follows:
Video:
15 fps (this is the rate my camera takes at anyway)
Cinepak compression - 128 kb/sec, 50% spatial quality
DiVX came out about a meg larger so I ditched it. Also more people seem to have Cinepak than DiVX at this point.
Auido:
11.5Khz, 8 bit, Mono.
My experiences with the uptown lex is that the express service almost always rides slow between 14th and Grand central
Is the MTA cyrrebty modifying signals to allow increased service
Anyone have any Ideas
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=30165
maybe it is a praylude to shorter trains at the older intervals
I have only written and gotten positive feedback from transit operations(a freind of mine gave me a contact high up last month)
As for 14th St, they definitely need to do something about the signals at 8th Ave. As I've mentioned, the current signaling pretty much insures that only 1 train can be moving between 6th and 8th Aves. at any one time. I figured they were going to wait for CBTC to do anything, but maybe things have reached a crisis and they'll tweak the signals now. It shouldn't be too hard to reduce the intervals between train movements at 8th Ave without compromising safety.
This should be relatively easy to improve if needed.
-- Ed Sachs
Don't get confused. I said the TA was studying ways to modify the signals to increase capacity prior to CBTC. It's years away.
This is something sooner, and I'm not sure what. Perhaps more aren't being added to the peak service, but the peak service is expanding in time.
You can't really blame NYCT for delays due to suspicious package incidents - the response to those is decided by politicians, not by the people running the MTA.
And you certainly can't blame them for other police activity and incidents.
Which is not to say that everything is fine on the UWS, just that the things you're reporting don't sound like NYCT's fault.
One of my pet peeves with the 1/9 is to be sitting on the 1 train, which I boarded after passing up the 9 preceding it, when VCP is backed up (which only happens on days that end in the letter "Y"). The 9 that I couldn't take is stopped at my station 238 but it refused to open the doors even though it is stuck there for several minutes. Amazing. What would be the harm in opening at 238 if you are stuck? I could then take the 9 in addition to the 1 in the belief that more times than not, the 9 will wind up stopping at 238
What do they do? Get off ONE STOP prior and walk. They get to their
doorstep BEFORE their train lurches into their station.
Try that, Bill?
W225 on the 9
But that doesn't change the point that skip stop on 1/9 is idiotic, David Greenberger did a detailed calculation where he tried to bias the results in favor of skip/stop and the numbers showed the majority of people lose time with it.
Make use of that spiffy subway-bus transfer gigaloo.
Trains that are supposed to bypass a station should never be stuck in that station, since they aren't supposed to enter until it is possible for them to leave. With that in mind, the harm comes from the once in a blue moon incident where a 9 opens at 238 and in some way, a customer is injured and files suit. then all the shit falls squarely on the back of the train crew for breaking the rules. They're both out of jobs and Transit is out an indeterminate - but large - sum of money.
You expressed my intention perfectly. I can attest to the fact that 9 trains frequently sit at the northbound 238 station waiting for a pocket at VCP.
That happened to me on the J, on the first day of the closings of Halsey &Kosciuszko, Queens-bound side. They skipped from Myrtle all the way to Chauncey (oops!) And the only reason we even stopped at Chauncey is because the train caught up with the Z in front (which is hard to do, because the alternation was ...Z, M, J..., how the J could catch up with the M, wait for M to cross in front, then leave and catch up with Z is beyond me) so it had to stop. They made a series of announcements that the doors would open, then stopped, everybody (Halsey, Gates, Kosciuszko) tried to jumble onto the Manhattan-bound J, for lack of signage pointing out the closed platforms (the T/O didn't know about it either!) and we missed it. On the return trip, (back towards Myrtle) it was actually crowded. By the time I got to to my meeting @ Gates Ave it was damn near over.
The busiest stations are 161, Burnside, and Fordham. Since two of the three stations I mentioned are local stops, the first station also an important hub and transfer, express service is dead.
Imagine a similar Downtown-like borough stop, Borough Hall and the 4 and 5 bypass the "local" stop.
UMM....2 of the three stations you metioned are EXPRESS stops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What I don't understand is why they wait till they get to Pelham Parkway to do the battery runs if the delay was in Manhattan (from the mouth of a C/R). They could do it on Lenox, where the 3 also runs or south of 180th where the 5 also runs, instead royally screwing White Plains Road riders.
also N/B battery runs CANT happen N/B south of E 180 because the 5 is also running express
If over 7 minutes have gone by in the morning rush with no SB locals at 96th, and at least two expresses have come through since the last local, the next express must be switched to the local track and must make all stops to Times Square, where it can resume express service.
Similarly, if over 7 minutes have gone by in the evening rush with no NB locals at Times Square, and at least two expresses have come through since the last local, the next express must be switched to the local track and must make all stops to 96th.
Some T/D's apparently forget about those of us who depend on local service. That's why the directive needs to come from higher up.
The lack of accountability and the lack of info does not help
No new technology is necessary.
Each local station could have a timeclock of sorts, activated either manually by the T/O or automatically when the doors open. If too much time passes, an alarm is sounded and corrective action is taken.
what you refer to are called triggers in programing languages.
If each train identifies itself automatically at each station through a transponder. The central server that replaces tracks each train that passes, it'd call letter's, whether it stops or not.
A flat pannel monitor in front of the dispacher at the interlocking is given a recomendation or serveral recomendatios including time spacing between trains, the concequences the action will inflict etc.
This system could be installed for far less then what you are suggesting and be far more effective, The computer would not control the signals or the switches but rahter be an aid.
Information will be available to analyse train infromation if certain runs routinely run behind schedule and make apropiate scheduling adjustments to keep the line running. An example might be a northbound 1 train always arrives late at it's north bound terminal every day. It's follower is right on it's tail
This train could be scheduled to skip certain stops every day thus reducing a gap that undere your mannual system would not provide information to detect such a trend easily
Even if all that effort is extended, the current information available is not easy to analyze to make quick acurate decisions especially with rather tight headways.
It is obvious from my observation over the years that the dispatchers are not willing to take action unless the situation the fap is huge. Part of the reason is they react instead of take proactive action because they do not have a clear view, I have seen these interlocking boards. Even the newest board recntly installed at CI yard is wowfully antiquated.
The dispatcher lean towards not doing anything because it will cause more trouble if the cahnge cause a problem then if her left it alone. it is this and the manaual fashion that train on time statistics are taken that is not only labor inetensive but prone to fraud.
When the tour guild said he was showing us the new board I asked him where it was. he pointed to a clean looking relic that looks like it belonged in a WWII movie rather then a modern transit operation with dozens of train on the tracks.
It reminded me of the scene from start trek IV where bones goes into the operating room of the hospitol where sulu was being looked at by the doctors who wanted to cut into his skull to look for the problem. Bones said what is this the middle ages and solved the problem by waving a medical devise and sulu wakes up
You also have to consider how overworked most IRT employees are. The TA already gets the maximum amount of cab time out of most crews. Why should a train crew have to log additional cab time just because there is a problem on another line? Think about it!!! A crew is making a 90-min trip from White Plains to Flatbush, with very little time for a bathroom break at Flat, before hitting the road back to WP. The 1 line needs better service. But squeezing more cab time out of 2 and 3 crews is not the answer.
PI= Put in. Prepare a train for service. Check all circuits, hand brakes, signs, BCO, snow block, sealed beams, tail lights, etc..
Most employees don't like the 1 line because they have to do three round trips from Van Cortlandt, and do more work at the terminal after all that.
The 1 train is not totally isolated, between midnight hours (the 2 runs local in Manhattan) and everynight and weekend G.O.s' when the 1 train may run express or the 2/3 trains run local, the ATS (Automated Train Supervision) must be compatbile with the 2 and 3 lines also.
Indeed. Big deal.
The SB 2/3 empties out at Wall in the morning rush. If necessary, run nonstop from there to Flatbush or New Lots. Or even drop out at Chambers and turn through South Ferry, which I suppose could also use the service if there's a problem on the 1/9.
And if an express is already running late, you can't make him even later, just b/c there is a problem on the local track.
Sure you can. The aim of the subway system is to move people, not to get to the terminal on time. Sometimes the best way to move people is to get to the terminal late.
For example, if you have a s/b 2 or 3 make local stops, the T/D is going to get a call from the Line Superintendent if one of his trains is late.
And the T/D will explain what happened and all will be fine. Surely the line superintendent is aware that his line doesn't operate in a vacuum.
And if it's late getting to Brooklyn, chances are it's going to leave late as well.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But by that point rush hour is over, so one train leaving a few minutes late isn't a big deal.
You also have to consider how overworked most IRT employees are. The TA already gets the maximum amount of cab time out of most crews. Why should a train crew have to log additional cab time just because there is a problem on another line? Think about it!!! A crew is making a 90-min trip from White Plains to Flatbush, with very little time for a bathroom break at Flat, before hitting the road back to WP.
So it's worse to keep two paid employees at work for an extra 5-10 minutes than to keep thousands of paying customers stranded on the platform for 30 minutes (when scheduled headways are around the 4-minute mark)?
Between 96th and Chambers, the 1/2/3/9 is a single line. Sometimes one of the routes that serves the line has to make a small sacrifice to alleviate problems on one of the other routes that serves the line. When there's a problem with 2/3 service, the 1/9 picks up the slack where it can (between 96th and Chambers). When there's a problem with 1/9 service, the 2/3 should pick up the slack where it can.
Come on. You've been reading this board for years. You knew that this sort of stuff happens before you accepted the job.
The 1 line needs better service. But squeezing more cab time out of 2 and 3 crews is not the answer.
I'm not talking about regular service. I'm talking about problem resolution. Or are no SB 1/9 trains scheduled to reach 86th Street between 9 and 9:30 in the morning? If there was a stalled train at 103rd (I have no idea what the actual problem was; there were no platform announcements), it wouldn't matter if scheduled headways were ten seconds.
Should be, but it doesn't seem to be. All too often, I find myself getting stuck on a 2 train that does a battery run north of Pelham Parkway. And they wait till they get there to start doing the battery runs, even if the problem was way down in Manhattan. Which makes zero sense given that they could do battery runs along Lenox Avenue (only twice have I ridden a battery run 2 down Lenox), where the 3 also runs or in the South Bronx (only once did I get a battery run here), where the 5 also runs. And more often than not, the next train doesn't come for a while.
And 149-GC to E180 also makes sense, but not in the afternoon rush, unless the following 5 can be diverted to the local track.
I have seen S/B 2 trains run EXP on local tracks from Gun Hill Road to E 180 St
The problem here is the lne employees get judged on thier on time performance which is most likely judged on termina arrival time. This is because thier is no effecient way of keeping track of a train on time perforamce ovet the entire line and to adjust the figures to take into account treain moving to cover other lines issues.
The same problem exists in the bus system where a dispatcher stands at an intersection. Bus drivers who are early wait one stop before the checkpoint to avoid being counted as early when they really are. many people end up missing thier transfer as the checkpoint is ussually located at a major transfer point.
The reported statistics show the bs being on time.
But was it really? NO
Some of these transit employees live in fantasy land. Many workers in the REAL WORLD have to fo what is neccessary in problem situation and generally don't get paid to do so.
If there were a stalled train at 103rd, subsequent trains could be sent express 137th-96th and bypass the problem. Even if no time is saved by running express and the next train is 4 minutes from 137th, that would be an 11 minute gap in service, not a 30 minute gap.
Okay, this would leave, at worst 2 or 3 trains stuck behind the stalled train, but these could be held in 110th, 116th, and 125th St stations, so no-one would be stranded.
I really have no idea what went wrong. It wasn't a stalled train at 96th itself or between 96th and 86th, because then we would have seen 1/9's on the express track and we would have known to demand block tickets.
Exactly. It sounds like quite an achievement to create a 30 minute gap on the 1/9 of all lines in rush hour. Short of a train completely failing on the section between the end of the 3 track section and the switches North of 96th St, I can't think of any way to create such a bad delay.
If a train had failed on the switches, there would have been an obvious service outage and the S/A would have been authorized to distribute block tickets.
I agree his simplistic view may solve one problem but create a bigger one somewhere else.
Tha is most likely why it is not doen.
As for the issue's of cab time, that is why most TA are moving to ATO. It eliminates all the human needs issues. A person can only be cooped up in the cab for a certain period of time
thier is no way one man wihtout can run hundreds of what if senarios with the limited amount of information avaiable.
Once CBTC/ATO is installed and if the TA chooses to add functionality to put trains back on schedule, the issue can be partially resolved. Until then thier wil only be a few daring individulas that would be willing to stick his neck out to try to help riders.
Occasionally on the brighton they will send the circle q express and the diamond local to make up for delays. They only do this in extreme cercumstances
All that and I still had my entire 38 minute lunch. 8-)
D train to Queens? NO problem. D Train to Coney via SeaBits, NO problem. D returning to the Culver? NO problem. Just sign ze papers. :)
Not a bad idead. I have preposed a similar stategy for bus monitoring and control if and when the MTA fially rolls out GPS assisted bus monitoring.
The effort may have became a bit easier. Verizon announced today tha they will install 802.11b wireless hotspots on all of thier phone booths in mnahattan. The Mta could utilize these hotspots in thier effort to monitor and control buses in motion. My plan posted multiple times on bustalk would use 802.11b hotspots to interact in real time with bus opeators adjusting the schedules to reduce bnching and speed the ride
If you just said that you had a 30 minute wait, then what are you complaining about? Either accept the fact that on the west side IRT you might OCCASIONALLY have a delay, or walk. And, the walk from Broadway IRT to CPW IND is nowhere near 20 minutes, unless you have a disability.
Stop whining about your service that arrives every 4 minutes and is 2-3 blocks from your house. I have to walk 4 blocks for a train that will run every 10 minutes at best, 35 minutes apart at worst (during the rush hour my friend). And its happened more than once.
Every line has occasional delays. The CPW local is hardly immune.
And, the walk from Broadway IRT to CPW IND is nowhere near 20 minutes, unless you have a disability.
No, it's about half that. I happen to know that Clayton lives west of the 86th Street IRT station and goes to school west of the 66th Street IRT station. Your suggestion adds about 10 minutes of walking at either end of his trip.
Stop whining about your service that arrives every 4 minutes and is 2-3 blocks from your house. I have to walk 4 blocks for a train that will run every 10 minutes at best, 35 minutes apart at worst (during the rush hour my friend). And its happened more than once.
I live near one of the busiest local stations in the system, in one of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the U.S. The service-to-demand ratio in these parts is mighty low. If locals don't run exactly on time, the crowds quickly become unmanageable and the entire line breaks down. Does your line operate at such tight tolerances?
So for you the IND would probably add only 10 minutes or so, since you could use the newly reopened 70th Street IND exit. That's still unreasonable given the length of the trip (5 minutes once the train comes) and the sort of service the IRT should have.
Arti
I Dispute this. Your train service comes every 3 1/2 minutes during the height of rush hour. That's what your schedule dictates. Additionally, if you stopped being lazy, you'd be able to get a train that comes a little less frequently (Assuming 7 C trains, and 8 B trains, that's 15tph. That's a 4 minute wait. Don't whine about a 4 minute wait) but is less crowded and seems to suffer from less delays.
Don't whine about your area being underserved. It is very well served, with a local train serving the stops at a combined headway of close to/ more than 30tph. That's better than East Side service.
If locals don't run exactly on time, the crowds quickly become unmanageable and the entire line breaks down. Does your line operate at such tight tolerances?
Let's examine my 2 lines. The one I referred to is the "G" line. If the train comes 35 minutes late (standard delay. Some Riders have waited longer than this I've heard multiple times) it will be woefully overcrowded. This is a fact. And another train is not coming behind this one either. AND, it's not because of a delay on a train further up the line.
My other home line; the "A" will commonly become overcrowded if the train is late. This happens all over the place. Except some of us realize that a delay is not really the fault of NYCT, and that it's not the regular service pattern.
You want to compare service-to-demand ratios? Fine.
My station had 5,867,037 fare registrations in 2000. I don't know which G station is yours but the average is somewhere around 1,000,000 fare registration. Do I have 5.9 times as much service as you do? Hmmm, let's see. Do you have scheduled 18-minute minimum rush hour headways? Do you have scheduled 30-minute weekend headways? Do you have scheduled 59-minute late night headways? No, you don't.
My station has less service per passenger than yours does. My station has less service per passenger than most do.
Additionally, if you stopped being lazy, you'd be able to get a train that comes a little less frequently (Assuming 7 C trains, and 8 B trains, that's 15tph. That's a 4 minute wait. Don't whine about a 4 minute wait) but is less crowded and seems to suffer from less delays.
Let me get this straight. Whenever I suggest that someone spend an extra two minutes sitting on a local rather than waiting for a crowded express, I'm told that those two minutes are critical. Yet you call me lazy because I generally don't walk ten minutes past a perfectly good station to a different station that gets less service and whose routes don't take me where I need to go. I don't call that lazy. I call it rational. I see no reason to spend more of my time to pursue an inferior option.
Incidentally, the B and C combined run at only 13 tph in the morning rush.
Don't whine about your area being underserved. It is very well served, with a local train serving the stops at a combined headway of close to/ more than 30tph. That's better than East Side service.
This is a riot. Am I supposed to stand halfway between Amsterdam and Columbus, listen closely, and run to catch whichever train comes first? No, I have to pick a station. Once I pick a station, whichever one I pick, I'm stuck with that station's headways. If I just miss a train, I have to wait for the next train at that station. If there are extended delays at the station I pick, the other station doesn't help me out unless (a) I know that the delay isn't going to end within the next ten minutes and (b) I'm willing to pay a second fare.
Let's examine my 2 lines. The one I referred to is the "G" line. If the train comes 35 minutes late (standard delay. Some Riders have waited longer than this I've heard multiple times) it will be woefully overcrowded. This is a fact. And another train is not coming behind this one either. AND, it's not because of a delay on a train further up the line.
Of course the first train after a 35-minute delay will be crowded. My train is overcrowded even if there's no delay. I'm not talking about a 35-minute delay. I'm talking about a 3-minute delay. If a train on my line is delayed 3 minutes, the crowds on the train and on the platforms become unmanageable. Have you ever experienced 72nd Street during a hot afternoon rush hour when 8 minutes (and three expresses) have passed since the last local? Let's just say that it's a major safety hazard.
My other home line; the "A" will commonly become overcrowded if the train is late. This happens all over the place. Except some of us realize that a delay is not really the fault of NYCT, and that it's not the regular service pattern.
I don't blame anyone for mishaps that can't be avoided. Insufficient service can be avoided. Not a single local train for a half hour, while expresses go by every few minutes, can be avoided. I can't ask for the unavoidable to be avoided, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for the avoidable to be avoided.
My station had 5,867,037 fare registrations in 2000. I don't know which G station is yours but the average is somewhere around 1,000,000 fare registration. Do I have 5.9 times as much service as you do? Hmmm, let's see. Do you have scheduled 18-minute minimum rush hour headways? Do you have scheduled 30-minute weekend headways? Do you have scheduled 59-minute late night headways? No, you don't.
Why not throw in the length of the train too? My trains are 300 ft long, yours are 510. I think that roughly evens it out, at least during the rush.
This is a riot. Am I supposed to stand halfway between Amsterdam and Columbus, listen closely, and run to catch whichever train comes first? No, I have to pick a station. Once I pick a station, whichever one I pick, I'm stuck with that station's headways.
Your clearly missing the point. You said that your neighborhood was underserved, not your station. Having said this, I'm trying to figure out why the IND is so inconvenient from 72nd st? Where could you possibly be going that makes the IND inconvenient? 66th is the only stop I can think of. 59th IRT stops with the IND, and south of that the IRT is between both of the IND lines all the way to 14th.
I don't blame anyone for mishaps that can't be avoided. Insufficient service can be avoided. Not a single local train for a half hour, while expresses go by every few minutes, can be avoided. I can't ask for the unavoidable to be avoided, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for the avoidable to be avoided.
A delay is unavoidable. I guess that you're suggesting that those expresses run on the local. All that I see coming from this is a service gap on the 2/3 a little further down the line. Running the express local helps you, but not somebody else.
Why not throw in the width?
Your clearly missing the point. You said that your neighborhood was underserved, not your station.
The IRT is the closer, more convenient, quicker line for most residents of the neighborhood. To them, the IND is relevant only for the slight reduction in crowds it grants the IRT.
Having said this, I'm trying to figure out why the IND is so inconvenient from 72nd st?
I don't live at 72nd Street. If I did, I'd have the 2/3 as well as the 1/9. I live at 86th Street, west of Broadway. The IND is three long blocks away -- half a mile, ten minutes.
When the Queens IND issue comes up, I point out that the V takes four minutes longer than the E to get from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza, and I'm invariably reprimanded by someone who insists that he can't spare the four minutes.
If four minutes seated on a climate-controlled R-46 is too much to ask, then why should I walk ten minutes through the heat or cold or rain or snow, only to reach a line that runs less frequently and leads to longer walks at the other end?
Where could you possibly be going that makes the IND inconvenient? 66th is the only stop I can think of. 59th IRT stops with the IND, and south of that the IRT is between both of the IND lines all the way to 14th.
Lincoln Center? Times Square? (You know, the biggest transfer point in the system.) South Ferry? Borough Hall? Atlantic Avenue? (Another big transfer point, in many ways an alternate to Times Square.) Reaching any of those destinations via IND entails at least five minutes of walking. That brings us up to fifteen minutes of extra walking -- all so that I can wait longer for the train.
Most of my trips involve transfers. I'm afraid the IND doesn't have stunning connections to the rest of the system.
A delay is unavoidable. I guess that you're suggesting that those expresses run on the local. All that I see coming from this is a service gap on the 2/3 a little further down the line. Running the express local helps you, but not somebody else.
Running the express local helps the thousands of people waiting at, or waiting to get to, the 12 local stations on the line.
It's called sharing the pain. Rather than keep some people stranded on the platform for a half hour, their delay can be cut to ten minutes at the expense of a delay of a few minutes to express passengers (who could either wait for the next express or sit out the local stops). There's no excuse to keeping passengers stranded on the platform, with no access to other lines or other stations or even the northbound platform. Not only was the S/A not authorized to distribute block tickets, she insisted that "there's nothing wrong with the trains!" That's inexcusable.
I know I'm repeating myself, but if I were you, in decent weather I'd definitely be walking to Bway between 93rd and 94th so that I had my pick of trains.
6 extra minutes of walking at 4 mph (8 minutes at 3 mph), 40 calories burnt off, good chance of catching an express which arrives in midtown at the same time as the local that you'd have caught at 86th.
But if I'm interested in making good time, it's faster to walk to the closest station. Even middays and weekends, my expected wait at 86th is only 2.5 minutes.
And if I'm going to a local stop, there's no point at all.
(As for the exercise -- if anything, I walk too much for my own good. I'm not overweight, but I have occasional problems with my left knee. If only I didn't enjoy walking, I'd be fine!)
This is of course not an option for people with difficulty walking. It also probably takes 2 minutes longer on average than using the nearest local, but it's good exercise too.
A=Adam
C=Charlie
D=Delta
Well, I like to call it Barely ;-) b/c the service is unacceptable but Bravo will do.
Jimmy
The 1/9 is a single route, just like the circle/diamond-6 (moreso, perhaps, since the two 6's split up in the Bronx), and there's less 1/9 service than 6 service. (We've recently been granted 20 tph for part of the morning rush. Until September, we never had more than 15. There's also less 2/3 service than 4/5 service.
The B/C is largely irrelevant to most of us, since the bulk of the neighborhood is closer to Broadway than to CPW, although it does slightly reduce the crowds that would otherwise populate the 1/9 and an alternate route can come in handy at times. (The CPW line is also useful to some East Siders, BTW. The walk from 5th is the same length as the walk from West End, but without three busy avenues to cross, and the crosstown buses move fast through the park.) Certainly, the CPW line is entirely irrelevant to someone who's already waiting at an IRT station.
West Side locals often bypass local stations -- not so much anymore, since a procedural change of some sort was made on 9/15/02, but all the time before that (and not just during the WTC-related reroutes -- this goes back over ten years). I used to have to wait for the second local at 72nd (since the first wasn't making local stops) two or three times each week. I once had to let two locals go by (on a Sunday evening!), and as I was getting off the third at 86th, a fourth rattled through on the express track. Just yesterday, I was on a SB 2 at 14th that met a SB 1, but local passengers couldn't take either since the 1 was bypassing everything until Chambers.
The situation is bad on the East Side, no doubt about it -- but it's only a hair better on the West Side.
As for bus service, it's not terrible but it could be better. The M10 doesn't come all that often, but as a solely residential avenue with a subway directly underneath, it doesn't get very crowded. The M7 and M11 aren't very reliable, IME, but where they overlap they're not too bad. The M104 is pretty frequent, and IIRC it's actually lost ridership over the years (largely due to MetroCard, I think -- I used to ride the M104 whenever I needed to transfer to a crosstown, but now I take the subway), but it gets stuck in traffic. The M5 used to have long headways (by Manhattan standards) but quick service. It still has long headways (10 minutes middays, according to the Guide-a-Rides, although I find that I usually end up waiting about 12), but service is much slower than it was a few years ago. Between 72nd and 106th we have no limiteds at all -- the M10 had a limited variant for a few years, and the M7 had a short trial, but that's it. (I used to think we could use limited service on Broadway, either on the M104 itself or with a northward extension of the M57 or a southward extension of the M60. Given the reduced ridership of the M104, I'm not so sure anymore -- perhaps the money would be better spent downstairs, improving 1/9 service.)
You know the crosstowns as well as I do, so I won't mention them, except to comment that I was once on a (midday!) M86 that took a full 30 minutes to get from Broadway to CPW. At 5th I got off and walked the rest of the way to Lex -- I was afraid that my transfer would expire before the bus reached Madison! It's not usually that bad, but I long for the days of the RTS's (or their predecessors) -- the buses were somewhat more crowded but they made much better time.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But someone on nyc.transit did some digging this morning and came up with some more detailed information.
The basic story is that the rush patterns will be extended on the 14th Street and Lexington lines, and the Lexington local will get shorter headways.
Mark
The Nassau Line Reconfiguration project was supposed to relocate all service to the west side platform, but this allegedy would have required tearing up the Brooklyn Bridge plaza right after it was built, and so only the portion north of Chambers was reconfigured.
But perhaps if the new Lower Manhattan Tunnel were built, or the Montigue was hooked up as discussed, the Jamaica super-shuttle and/or the Airtrain could terminate in the east platform, with subway service shifted to the west, and the entire station rehabilitated. The tail tracks are already there.
Agreed. It's magnificent. All spruced up, it could be the subways Grand Central Terminal. One of the few real "original design" pieces of transit infrastructure left in the city. Standing on the platforms you can easily transport your mind back to 1925 or somewhen like that. Considering the huge tenement population that swirled around it, Chambers Street was rightly configured for the needed services it offered. The BMT was a serious railroad.
It's another 37 cent stamp. some paper, an envelope. Other than that, you lose nothing.
Reconfiguring Chambers to use one platform would be difficult due to grade changes. It would also make it impossible to terminate trains at Chambers, as the J does on weekends and the midday M is tentatively scheduled to do next year. We've already lost the option of terminating at Canal, and when the Canal realignment is complete, even Essex will be difficult (trains from the north could still terminate on the middle track but they'd be competing with trains from the south). Even though one could argue (and I'd probably agree) that nothing should be scheduled to terminate at Chambers (or Canal), it would be nice if a stalled train at Fulton SB didn't force a temporary service cutback to Marcy.
I can't keep track of all these similar threads. I don't remember where what was mentioned anymore. There are at least three or four threads going on right now at the same time about Chambers Street, and two or three threads about the former LIRR Rockaway Woodhaven stations.
Why can't they use the crossovers north of the station to pull that off?
Well too bad for them. The loop from the Willy down to the tunnel is the perfect example of what a hithertofor trolley car-riding population might consider as the next advance in transportation. I love its shortness, the quirky slicing into lower Manhattan, off the bridge and into the tunnel. And it's the only Manhattan subway route with NO numbered streets as stations! Heh. Never saw that mentioned here before.
Which, undoubtedly, is a major reason why Chambers Street has been allowed to deteriorate so terribly.
Jimmy ;)
Chuck Greene
Jimmy :{
You may know this already, but Johan, the site administrator, is considering shutting down the non-aviation forum because of all the tension and flaming. I'd be sorry to see that happen, as it's nice to have an area where just about anything can be discussed without being off-topic.
If you want to see forums where there are never any off-topic discussions, the boards at bodybuilding.com are the perfect example. I used to think that was because the moderators acted quickly to kill any off-topic materials. In fact, that's not the case, as nothing off-topic gets posted in the first place. I suspect that's because of the, er, focused mind sets of the hardcore muscleheads who make up most of the regulars ... and I'm not saying this in a favorable manner :)
A bodybuilding forum sounds like it would have people whose only thought is lifting weights :-) I lift weights and where I go, no matter the time, you see some of the same people in there no matter what.
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?action=intro
They have enough OT postings to satisfy anyone.
Just don't post anything transit-related that isn't a complaint, or the mods might get upset :)
OT isn't always bad, remember the Softball challenge?
Not much rapid transit, but pluny of RxR toipics, e.g. LIRR, NY & Atl, Fallen Flags (NH, NYC, etc.), NYS Railfan, trolley & tourist lines, etc.
You'll find me there about once a week.
Jimmy
I couldn't care less about which buses are being moved from which depot to which depot (which is the direction where most of their conversations go), there are occassionally good threads, but too occassionally.
One thing I can say about BusTalk is that they usually stay on topic and don't get into political rants.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that must be a relief!
I like subways, light-rail, commuter and inter-city electric trains. I don't indentify with trolleys (I was born in the 80s), and I never really got into mainline railroading and diesel locomotives since I never lived by any of those types of lines in Queens.
All the major bus companies are hurting, meanwhile more & more cities are adding light rail to there commuter transportation systems.
Take the CNG city bus & compare it's cost (purchase & operations) to a light rail system (don't count the cost to install rail or a new road for a bus and the answer is surprising).
Then there is THIS exception to the rule ... I thoughly enjoy the discussions about rapit transit, but have had a interest in RxRing both passenger & freight even BEFORE my rt interest got going. e.g. one of the things I do when I read Railpace is to see if I'm farmiliar with the engines in the photos (EMD GP vs. SD, GE U boats vs. the newer ones, ALco S-1 vs. EMD SW-1, etc.). Then there is BusTalk where I go to work. e.g. the Cooper Group announced it's intention to sell the propertys' that it's depots are on ... was surprised that hardly anyone seemed to be interested in that.
It isn't easy to draw the line between different sorts of passenger carrying rail systems in a generic way. We would end up having weeks of sterile debate about whether a particular system was a subway system, a transit system, a light rail system, a streetcar system, a commuter rail system, a long-distance rail system or something in between.
Jimmy
POSTED: 1:38 p.m. EDT May 12, 2003
UPDATED: 11:20 a.m. EDT May 13, 2003
ESSEX, Md. -- The state of Maryland spent $36 million of taxpayer money on six new locomotives that haven't gone into service, most for more than a year -- and the 11 NEWS I-Team asked state officials if this resembles business as usual or a train-wreck of a deal.
WBAL-TV 11 NEWS I-Team reporter David Collins reported that weeds and rust grow faster than some brand-new locomotives travel. The locomotives are sitting idle instead of pulling passengers up and down the Maryland Rail Commuter's (MARC) Penn line. The state ordered six brand-new engines and most of them are collecting dust at a Maryland Transit Administration (MTA) train yard in Essex, Md., Collins reported.
Why Do Trains Sit Idle?
When the 11 NEWS I-Team asked MTA spokeswoman Suzanne Bond how many locomotives the state purchased and at what price, she replied: "We have an order right now of six locomotives and they cost $6 million each."
That totals $36 million of taxpayer money -- paid in full. The locomotives are state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line engines designed to give customers a faster ride, Collins said. State officials thought they could get the locomotives in service faster if they piggy-backed onto an Amtrak order -- but it hasn't worked out, the 11 NEWS I-Team found out.
At least one of the locomotives has been sitting 1½ years and four others have been idle for more than a year, Collins reported. The last engine arrived seven months ago -- and all had problems.
Bond described what type of modifications need to be made.
"We found out they had some issues with left to right movement on the train, a swaying movement by the locomotive that required a modification," Bond said.
In other words, the engines aren't safe, Collins said. According to Amtrak, there are cracks in a bracket that holds the engines' shock absorber. MTA officials said if it breaks it, it could cause a derailment.
According to MTA officials, manufacturing company Bombardier agreed to fix the problem but worked on Amtrak's locomotives first, which caused a delay in service.
Bombardier declined to comment, and even though most of the locomotives have been sitting for more than a year, state officials said that's not unusual.
"This is the type of process that goes on behind the scenes that people don't often know about, the accepting testing process, the evaluation process, making sure things work well," Bond said.
While Maryland officials find this delay acceptable, other transit authorities do not. The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) in Philadelphia claims it takes them a week to get a locomotive in service after delivery. In Dallas, Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) officials said it takes them only a week or two to get their locomotives in service.
The 11 NEWS I-Team asked Joanne Li, an assistant professor of finance at Loyola College in Baltimore, to calculate the interest the state could have earned if it left the $36 million in its stock portfolio using a formula provided by the state.
"They probably could make $680,000 in terms of rate of return," Li said.
And that's only for eight months, Collins said.
"It's certainly been frustrating. You don't want to enter into a process and end up with problems and issues," Bond said.
One of those issues concerns training. The MTA told the 11 NEWS I-Team that they "assumed" Amtrak would take care of it -- but the contract the state provided to 11 NEWS does not indicate that assumption. And Amtrak officials said its only obligation was to inspect the engines.
Now the state is faced with yet another expense -- paying Bombardier $111,000 to teach 50 people to how to operate and maintain the locomotives.
But attorney Troy Powers, who specializes in contract law, says the state negotiated a bad deal, and he finds it incredible that the state has not already taken legal action.
"The taxpayer is sitting with the burden of reparations," Powers said. "It certainly appears that there are flaws in the contract and perhaps somebody either didn't consider those problems may arise, or considered them but was willing to waive them."
The state vows all six locomotives will be in service in July. Amtrak is suing Bombardier and Maryland state officials said the possibility of a lawsuit is something that needs to be discussed, but only after the locomotives are in service, Collins reported.
Stay with TheWBALChannel.com and WBAL-TV 11 NEWS for the latest travel news updates.
smugglerbuddy@aol.com
I also have images of every LIRR signal bridge on the Main Line between HAROLD and JAY.
Feel free to use any of the images I have on www.palter.org/~brotzman
So far, acceleration is decent on 6 car trains, though Lawrence to Inwood is a short hop, so they don't get rolling too fast. Braking and acceleration is audible, as the inverters are on durring this time. No idea what the EMI is like. The chatty voice is loud. The horn sounds like an M-3, which isn't too bad, though I was hoping for something more unique (heh).
The black front is distinctive. I suspect it won't last long, though.
Old habits die hard - I saw one come through the other day - the cab door was open...
Supposedly, they're quite smooth and quiet inside. Haven't gotten on one yet.
They must have a lot of them - the numbers are reaching in the high dobule digits, though I haven't seen 7100 or higher yet.
The yaw dampers are still off on them - I hear they're supposed to reappear sometime in the future.
Oh yes, the gates at Lawrence Ave were acting up the last week, though I think they fixed it....
The train is also very comfortable, quiet and smooth at high speeds, such as those reached on the express run between Valley Stream and Jamaica and again in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel.
In sum: the M-7 is a winner and a great addition to the LIRR.
---Chapter 11
BTW The ACMUs essentially have no railfan window (the crew stands in the front vestibule, or hangs bags, and even if they don't it probably makes the Engineer uncomfortable for someone to be standing right there), but have huge side windows. When MNRR replaces them with the M-7s at least window-wise we're getting the same thing.
The restrictions on photography are few, as you say, though on our London Subtalkers' railfan trip last autumn we did get a complaint from one Central Line T/O when we took a picture of his train (at an above-ground station).
Next time look at the DLR, which is an interesting system in a great many ways, and maybe Croydon Tramlink, an under-appreciated part of London's public transport system, perhaps because it is situated in untouristy south London.
Seriously, I took pictures there myself in Nov 2001 when I went for six days. Nobody seemed to mind, but I did refrain from "flashing" the driver, even out of doors.
Docklands is net, if you are lucky, you can get a railfan SEAT!
wayne
The delivery on the primary R-142 order and option order I is winding down. Unless I'm mistaken, only 6900 series cars still need to be delivered,
Unaccounted for -
6921-25
6931-35
6946-50
6961-70
6981-90 (Option I)
Deliveries of the the primary R-142 order started on 12/20/99.
-Stef
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-A friend of mine at being told the 1100 R142series arrived.
Everyone has an opinion, brah... we've beat the Redbird-Armadillo
debate senseless TOO MANY TIMES... jest best we all leave one another
to their onions and opinions, too.
I Redbird, therefore I am.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace
David
Bill "Newkirk"
?????
How so? the Manny bridge is dead yet.
Also, why does the service advisory for the Q say it's running over the N/R route? That is incorrect. On weekends the N does not run in the Montague Tunnel. It should say R or R/W, because when the Q runs in the tunnel so do the R and W, but not the N.
Also, both maps show the Throgs Neck Bridge but omit the adjacent Whitestone Bridge.
Must be a secret plan to put a lower deck on the TNB for subway service. It's about time the Bronx and Queens had a direct subway connection! :)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11
It's only the Q, due to a GO, that runs express north of Canal but via tunnel south of Canal. Otherwise, the bridge functions as the express shortcut to the tunnel.
I guess they make the maps for morons now, and I bet even then they don't understand.
Weekends are more at issue than late nights, and it's impossible to tell (without reading the service guide) if a light-face letter refers to a weekday-only service, a weekend-only service, or something else. Perhaps the map should depict weekday service on one side and weekend service on the other. The commuter rail network is irrelevant to most subway passengers, especially those subway passengers who need to consult a map.
It doesn't have to be difficult. Its a wonderful system that the TA uses on every other aspect of the map - colors.
Full Time Service - Black
Nights & Weekends - Green
Nights only - Blue
Weekends only - Red
Or something like that. Better than Bold, normal and asterisk.
The problem with that is you will never see the weekend side in a subway car map. Just like when they used to have individual route maps on the back, which was great, but they never showed the other side in subway cars or in-station maps.
Perhaps the map displays could be doubled, or some of the wall-mounted ads could be replaced with maps. They'd have to be marked clearly.
But even if the cars only have space for one version of the map, I don't see why the fold-up maps couldn't have two.
Thanks.
Avid
Any past trips I've sent away to Waters Place for, there was a phone number at the Transit Museum I could call to check the status of my request. Now with the Museum closed for renovations, there's no number to call- at least as far as I know.
Offhand, does anyone know if you can get away with 37 cents postage if you're enclosing a SASE? Or do I have to go to the post office to get the weight and rate?
I'd LOVE to go on the June 8th trip, as I miss the R1-9s sorely- and have another commitment on the date of Saturday trip.
Thanks to anyone for their insights on this matter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
--Mark
What time do the trains leave from Chambers Street and Grand Central?
I called Bill Wall at that Waters Pl. phone number. I have the same senario as you and can be free June 8th.
Bill called back and left a message telling me that there is still time and to send payment with the flyer coupon and enclose a stamped self addressed envelope. If I were you, send out the request with payment TOMORROW. Just leave your phone number on the coupon in case they have to call you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Turns out I sent out a check and a SASE yesterday after reading responses to my original post. The concept of a flyer coupon is unknown to me. I found out the dates and details of the various MOD trips in the Upcoming Events section of this website. For what it's worth, I printed that page, cut out the reference of the MOD trips and highlighted the date I wanted. I also enclosed a note specifying number of tickets and date along with my phone number.
I sure hope that failure to enclose this flyer coupon will not jeapordize my chances of receiving a ticket.
I did a similar thing, but went one step further. I pasted the info from the Upcoming Events page into MS Word and then created MY OWN order form! I ALSO included a seperate note explaining that there was no mistake, I really did want 2 tickets for one day and 3 tickets for the other day. I received my tickets with no problem. I'm sure you will be fine. I hope to see you there.
Take Pride,
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
As a member of the NY Division ERA, I received a flyer announcing the trips. At the bottom was a coupon you cut with a scissors then fill out and mail payment for your tickets. You could have even made you own coupon by stating which trip you were interested in on which day and specify adult ticket(s). As long as you mailed it in and not waited, you should be get your ticket and who knows, maybe I'll see you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then you should have received the flyer twice, as it was also mailed
the members of BERA. Of course those using the original flyer, there
are some errors on it, as to dates & equipment.
But with all tickets returns, the corrected flyer is mailed.
And those that printed it off the coming events section of this board,
the dates and equipment are correct.
8-) ~ Sparky
Howard NOT,
The Division 'C' excursions are not operated by the Transit Museum,
so let's not misidentify the MOD excursions with Museum Nostalgia
Trips. They are using Transit Museum cars in June, 2003.
Once again, for those that may wish to persist and speak with someone,
the telephone number is: 1-347-643-5310. There is not always someone
present to answer your call, but they will call you ASAP.
8-) ~ Sparky
It's going to be an interesting weekend, with the Bus Roadeo the day before. I chose Sunday for the MOD trip because Hangar B at Bennett Field, where the Roadeo will be held, is only open on Saturdays. Hangar B contains some fascinating wartime aircraft on display. So it'll be a nice dose of old planes, trains and buses (but no automobiles!)
Thanks to everyone for their informative responses to my original post. See youse guys at Chambers Street!
The trips will be overlapping with multiple GOs in effect that weekend(s).
-Stef
-Stef
I refer to the opening paragraph in the Newsday story which states that the 74th St station was voted the ugliest back in 2000.
1) There wouldn't be as much crowding around the stairway entrances from the 7 platform downstairs if people would just use the entrances evenly. People have an annoying habit of using the stairway closest to the train door from which they just exited, even if it is too crowded and another, less crowded stairway is 10-15 feet away. I used to make the 7 to E/F transfer very often and I was amazed at people's reluctance to walk a short distance to a relatively uncrowded staircase.
2) I don't see a reference to the renovation of the Roosevelt Avenue station platforms, stairways or walls. Other than the introduction of flourescent lighting in the 1960's and the installation of white on black pillar and ceiling signs, the station is pure 1930's IND in dire need of renovation.
IRT stations have all been lengthened, but that's about it for the unrehabbed ones. Most (underground) BMT stations received the refrigerator treatment a few decades ago.
Flushing IRT platform upstairs is no better, everyone crowds at the conductors position because a large number of customers exit at the next three stops (82, 90, and Junction). Even with the improvements, it is doubtful that riding habits will change, they will STILL mob themsleves at the 74th st staricases.
It is now an obstacle course, last December I noted chalk markings all over the station and mezzanine floor, indicating that the renovations will commence on the busiest complex in Queens.
On another note, the P/T entrance at Queens Plaza (by Northern Blvd/41st Ave) is now a moth behind schedule and is still closed.
Flushing IRT platform upstairs is no better, everyone crowds at the conductors position because a large number of customers exit at the next three stops (82, 90, and Junction). Even with the improvements, it is doubtful that riding habits will change, they will STILL mob themsleves at the 74th st staricases.
It is now an obstacle course, last December I noted chalk markings all over the station and mezzanine floor, indicating that the renovations will commence on the busiest complex in Queens.
On another note, the P/T entrance at Queens Plaza (by Northern Blvd/41st Ave) is now a month behind schedule and is still closed.
And that would be Slattery/Skanska. If anything, I am impressed with their rehab of the Times Square complex so far, let's just hope they don't mess up the Flushing IRT platform.
If anything, the entire complex in Queens is already way under construction or will soon be under it. Telling of my observations:
- The Flushing IRT platform already has several stairwells boarded up, not to mention spraypaintings at the west end of the platform, most likely indicating goings on.
- The Queens Blvd. IND platform is much more rumbling. Several staircases have been boarded up and if you walk around the mezzanine, much of the area has been changed. The width has pretty much reduced with new temporary working quarters installed at both sides of the mezzanine. Also a significant part of the flooring has been scraped and will be probably be layed with new flooring and the tiling we are all familiar with.
- Some interesting things I spotted included asphalt at the foot of the very top of some of the mezzanine stairwells and new telephones recessed into the some of the working quarters. Very intriguing...
Geez Roosevelt Av is already congested and now less space for a short time, well better its done now than later [or never ;-)]. Well yeah it is not a surprise to see the new tiling at Roosevelt as it was just PLAIN and dull and would brighten up the station platform.
You're a bit too late. Roosevelt/Jackson Heights has always been an express station. You're probably speaking of the Flushing IRT platform... even though it will still remain a local station, it should be noted that the interlocking around 69-Fisk will be dismantled and new interlockings will be installed north and south of 74/Broadway.
If anything, I am happy for the renovation.
They'll come in handy during GO's and blockages.
David pretty much explained the reason for moving the interlockings. It will only be used for service diversions or GO's... It would be crazy for regular service usage considering the backups in locals and the overwhelming crowding. It just isn't feasible.
The MTA is doing a bang-up job for this project. BTW, does anyone know if any part of the complex, whether it be in the IND or IRT part, will be demolished?
I'm thinking the crossunder accessible at the west end of the IRT platform will be demolished and rebuilt. That's probably the worst part of the complex.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
The D line has among the worst scheduling in the entire transit system, 95% of all S/B train are "held" at either 145th, 59th (no excuses on either station) or at 42nd st (understandable there). And the holding can take up to 2 minutes, sometimes 3 minutes.
Someone at BPB is letting trains go too early or the C/R is making the stops too fast, causing it to run hot (ahead of schedule.)
Jimmy
This...is...KUH-NALLLL STreetttttt (voice trails off)...TRANSFERS AVAILABLE FOR THE J! M! Z! THE NUMBER... 6! ANDDDDDDD...THE SHUTTLE BUS! To the grand strreeettt stashunn (voice trails off)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
They are the traditional railroad spikes that nail the tie plate to the cross tie. They are colored blue (I've never seen that color before) and are not rusty. There were only three of them. Did a trackworker leave them behind by accident? Crap, I hope I don't get someone fired again. Thinking back to this morning, it, uh, may not have been that station, and, uh, may have occured many weeks ago... In fact, I'm heavily medicated right now and I have no idea what I'm talking about...
....back to the doobies bmdoobiew again ehh :)
I felt reassured when I saw the spikes still sitting there the next morning...
It's nice to yap, but let's yap wisely.
I often notice along the trackage that an additional 2 tracks are tacked onto the ties (I see this more often in Elevated than underground, that's my observation). What are the purposes of these tracks?
I got another query as well.
I often see along the 3rd rail where it breaks up momentarily and within the break, a part of 3rd rail is to the side with wires connected to the original 3rd rail. What is the purpose of this?
I'm not going to be there, but the Broadway line platform at which station? Why the R and not the W or Q? The J hasn't stopped at Pacific since October 2001, when the R wasn't running.
Assuming you figure out where you're going, have fun!
And, yes, the Q is running through the tunnel on weekends for the next few months. I wouldn't have suggested it otherwise, since it wouldn't have taken you to Whitehall if it went over the bridge.
The R, Q, and W all stop at Whitehall on weekends, and the 1 stops even closer to the ferry terminal. I still don't understand why you're insisting on the R.
Most people will be away that Memorial Day weekend, I cannot attend this one. However I may be planning a late August fan trip on a Sunday when most people will be free, only this time more ground will be covered than just NYC.
Stay tuned.
There ain't nothing to eat in Tottenville, unless you brown bag it.
Bill "Newkirk"
This photo is described as depicting the Canal Street Bridge Line station during a fan trip in 1973.
Is this correct? The station in the photo has a curved ceiling and what looks like a wall platform and a single track, similar to the 14th Street and 23rd Street stations of the IND 6th Avenue line. The Canal Street Bridge Line station has a straight, flat ceiling and two side platforms separated by two tracks adjacent to one another. The station depicted in the photo does not look like Canal Street Bridge Line.
Is it?
oz12
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494647
and
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494933
I've never seen any old photos of Chambers St. even in the pre-Nassau St. subway days.
Bill "Newkirk"
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
New respondees as of 4/28/03
boriqua
Michael Calcagno
New respondees as of 5/9/03
Chapter 11 choo choo and From the Bronx to Brooklyn
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. Included are 2nd Avenue line, the IND Second System and many other original lines, a few are based on or are variations of proposed lines that railfans on Subtalk have posted in the past in various threads. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
The above listed respondees have already received chapters 1 and 2, and I eagerly await their feedback, as I continue to work on the last part of Chapter 4. There is still time to request your copy, as I would like to share this with as many railfans as possible. Weekly posting of this thread will continue for the remainder of May and through mid-June.
Rembember you can email me privately by clicking on my handle, with your request or to ask questions.
For those who responded, thank you for your interest and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much.
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
Online FORUM will get you the answers.
Just ask the PROS here, son..
The complete story is here (I hope this URL works!):
http://64.226.170.141/cgi-bin/Interchange.pl?read=24587
Frank Hicks
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/2203910/detail.html?treets=ny&tml=ny_break&ts=T&tmi=ny_break_22939_03250105142003
That's silly. Maybe folks who want improved service might think that raising more money to pay for it would make sense. I know I'm tired of rotten service (not all of it is rotten, but I can name some examples) and I'm willing to pay to improve it.
Perhaps those who remember what the results were the last time politicians and advocates managed to "save the fare" because hikes weren't necessary. They still aren't necessary if the TA stops doing maintenance and buying spare parts! We won't see the difference for five to ten years!
The City and State have already repeated many of the mistakes of the 1960s and 1970s. More and more debt. Assuming the tax revenues from a stock market boom would go on forever. Assuming excess pension valuations would go on forever, and thus putting less into the pension funds and increasing benefits at the same time.
Now all we need to do is "save the fare," slash the NYC school budget, and cancel the Second Avenue Subway.
The strappies plays on the publics right now thinking who often do not look at the concequences for making a change
they are sceaming at the MTA for doing just that preparing multiple budgets to see what will happend if money is used now vs paying down dept, saving interest payments and keeping the fare lower
the public will never scream PEASE RAISE MY FARE but that is when the sensible profeesionals need to make a tough decision
$2 is the base fare. The MTA fare hike plan spared the working man and in essence taxed the tourist and the lazy who don't buy thier fares in advance.
Try buying and airplane ticket last minute. It cost 10 times as much
Its more than that.
Under Cuomo, taxes were cut and services were added in the 1980s boom, and taxes were raised and services were reduced in the early 1990s bust.
Under Pataki, taxes were cut and services were added in the late 1990s boom, and now taxes are being increased and services cut in the early 2000s bust.
BUT under Cuomo the there was not big pension plan giveaway to public employees who are cashing in and moving out. And, state and local governments themselves paid enough into the pension plans to keep them well funded. Today, so much money has been diverted out of the pension plans that ALL FUTURE INCREASES IN TAXES ARE GOING TO THE PENSION FUNDS.
The Comptroller, McCalll and Hevesi, get some of the blame for this. But Pataki (and Giuliani) also increased debts in the boom, especially MTA debt. Cuomo did not -- he used current state revenues to pay for rebuilding the MTA. FUTURE CAPITAL AND OPERATING FUNDS WILL HAVE OT BE DIVERETED TO PAY OFF THESE DEBTS!
Everyone knows this.
So yes, we can avoid raising the fare, by repeating the policies of the 1960s and 1970s. Even if the fare is raised, however, the transit system has peaked, not due to decisions that are being made now, or will be made in the future, but due to decisions made from 1997 to 2002. "Saving the fare" will only make things worse.
Anytime someone like tom golisano or bloomberg bring up issue like this they are ignored . Hevesi to be fair brought up issue like this while he was city comtroler. Not only was it ignored he lost the election
Local politicians are standup comics coming uo with liners to distract the public from the issues
Other states and cities would kill for the natural resources ny has. The universities who pumpout new incentions, Wall street who fills the cities coffers.
The local polticians look for ways to fill thie pockets. suing to keep the school districts is one of them
FYI if you read the judges rulling and the actuall complaint. The straphangers campaigns complait was not that the fare increase was not justified but rather that they neeed more public hearings because the information released to the public was not in language the average joe could understand
The irony of the situation, if yu read the legal breif, the language it was written in was in no way somthing the average joe could understand easily.
Basically they want more public hearingd and opurtunities to get publicity and to hold ralleys that waist taxpayers dollars
The times had a piece on Senator Eric T. Schneiderman's who was the lawyer for strpaies. It;s his hobby to file suit against the MTA. Yes he is just looking to file suit against the mta, no matter the reason. It's personel not for the people
A perfect example is with the cities current round of layoffs. The city was looking for $600 million in concesions. The concessions would have amounted to increasing the work week from 35 hours to 40 hours. Something the state of NY has done years ago. In addtion reducing the ovely generous 5 weeks of paid vacation the first year to 3 and expanding to 4 after a few years.
This would have saved a few thousand jobs but the union leadership balked rather having a few thousand hard working employees pink slipped becasue those employees do not vote in the next union election
The head of the teachers union is pullinghte same crap. Even thoght thier is a huge shortage in cerified teachers, the union is fighting a plan to not allow subatical which teaachers are paid 75% of thier salary for a few years to help save enough money to not lay off any teachers aids..
Thw union instead of being reasonable filed a lawsuit claiming the city is racist in firing many teachers aids becasue many of the aids are black and latino. If the union would temportaly suspend subaticals, the money would be available to not lay off these workers
The unions are the only ones not feeling the pain.
I feel your pain as a database consultant. I just got back from a two month consulting gig in VA.
What technologies do you work with?
Thank you for your understand. Its not easy when you can't sleep and eat well daily when you're worrying your futures that may be in danger of losing the important thing of your life - your living and your family and your career. Even I not married and have no children. I also feel the pain of others who have families to support and career that they love for many year. And you felt the same way too. I blamed pataki for everything that is going on at this. Frankly I don't see him handling his job well as my governor.
What technologies do you work with?
I' m in charge in eliminating database errors.
He failed to attract new industry to the state during the last boom. Part of the reason is the hight tax strucuture even in upstate NY and part of the problem was the fact that he tried to steer any new compaanies to areas who supported him in the election
The lack of a brownfeild law makes it near imposiible to attact industry to former indstrial sites
Under current law, if any polution is found on site, the CURRENT owner is reponciple. Most states including NJ limit the liability of new property owners to polution they casues giving the company a idea of how much clean up cost will cost and no surprises
Frankly I see that the union or city don't give Flying F*** to our children's education. They are using this lawsuit to fulfill their needs and playing revenge games against each others with our children's future. And Frankly they don't have respect for god either. They are doing this because they think they are perfect than different races. Yeah Yeah, same sh*t that is being heard and sang million of time in church coming out their mouths...act nice in front of God. And backstab others behind his back. Ohhh, I singing the lord of glory song to god on easter sunday and act nasty outside of church on mother's day. C'mon!!! jack-ass jerks stop this so called drama of going to church to say nice to God and commit sin behind his back. God brought our children to this world to love, and care and provide for them, Not to just take away their chances. How times does this statements have to be repeated to their stupid dumb heads. This should be all about children's future. It should not be all about red skin, orange skin or green skin and who is certified as teachers.
That is normal city politics.
That is what is so refreshing about Bloomberg. He is not interested in the revenge game.
The union is angry that the chancelor is not directly soliciting input from the union brass on the school reorganization, but rather is interesting in what the front line teachers find inportant.
Randi Weingarten was quoted that she was the teachers union and if the chancelor or and other Education department staff want to know what teachers think they shoud talk to her. It is this run around that is why the schools are so bad
In the past the teachers union micromanged every decision. The unions brass who have not worked in the classroom for many years is often politically motivated and not what front line teachers think
The Local politicains and teachers union are now against the re-organization becasue it is clear that the new structure takes the politics out of much of the school operations noteably the budgets which is now put in the hands of the principals and not the buecrats. The new structure has a clear chain of caommand and accountability. Such a system reduces fraud and political patronage mills.
NYPOST SUPERINTENDENTS GET FAILING GRADE
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/75830.htm
The state senators are suing to protect a failing system. As system that has faild a good portion of our children for 30 years
Yeah, I forgot about it, you bloomberg and pataki have been on each others throats. I was wonder, if there will be a time where they will throw fireball at each other. Bloomberg vs Pataki. Woo hoo hoo hoo hoo. The pandora box will blow up on their face.
The large majority of so called "yuppies" make far less.
A stock trader could make intot he millions but earns each and every penny making accurate decisions making his company ten times more. If he does not make those decisions, if he does not make good decesions, he does not get paid at all
Many sales, brokers, mutual funs salesmen get paid mostly on commisiion. hey give you a year or two to put together a client roster and pay you a nominal base salary. By year three or 4 you are on 100% commission
Lawyers at top firms can sometimes start at $125k. But this is only after going to a top 10 4 year college and excelling, And another 2 years a at a top ten law school paying over $100k for the schooling and enduring hundreds of hours of studing to pass the bar exam.
They also put in 60-80 hour week the first few years. If you break down thier hourly take into account no paid ovet time and they make about $30-36 hr
Take those workers out of the mix and the average advertising, marketing person person makes between $25-$40k. No joke. Go onto hot jobs and type in advertising. Sales professionals and stock brokers must work as assitants for numerous years before getting a shot to make the big money. you only make the big money if you earned it
The average trade union worker, many who are highly skilled in thier craft do very well.
Plumber $40 hr * 40 hrs a week = $86,000
This over genereous salaries even compared to NJ is why it cost so much to live, work and play. I harms those in lower skills jobs the most. Those whose children could bennifit from better schools but the money went to pay the janitor or the plumber and not the TEACHER
No one is saying they should be paid poorly just the market rate set by supply and demand.
Thier will be just as many qaulified candidates for plumber and elecrician at $20 hr as thier are at $40 hr. The cost to society is less expensive housing and more jobs
Do you know that the electricians union artificially caped the number of union electricians in the late 1990's holding up many construction projects which now results in lower tax revenue due to jobs not comming to NYC. The remaining projects had to pay more for the same work. Plus those projects that moved ahead with some noo-union workers faced sabatage.
The problem is that the union does not want to use market force to set price but rather artificially drive upop salaries
Hense the BIF rat the trade unions put outside non union construction sites
The problem is overbloated salaries hurt as all.
That may have been true a few years ago, but right now newly-graduated lawyers are struggling to find jobs at less than half that salary. My younger daughter will graduate this Sunday from Georgetown Law, considered one of the top law schools in the country. After seven years of schooling (four undergrad, three years law school) she is deeply in debt (Georgetown costs about $45K/yr. and her undergrad school wasn't cheap either), I am broke, and she does not yet have a job. Hopefully she will have one by the time she takes the Virginia bar exam in July.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For many years now law has been a tough field in which to make a living. All these grotesque "Have you been injured?" ads should be a clue. During boom times, such as the late 1990's, a relatively small percentage of law school graduates - mainly from the top schools - do very well, but they're very much the exception even at those times.
The real problem with law is that the field is totally glutted, indeed has been that way for over two decades. Many college graduates, especially those with non-marketable liberal arts degrees, wind up in law school basically because they've got few other options. Law school is particularly suited to liberal arts graduates not because of what it has, but because of what it does not have - no math, no science, no computers.
many of these underemployed Lawyers beccome our political leadership and activist (ake gene from straphangers) in places like the city concil. They look to find any issue to argue, filing lawsuits not because they will help anyone, but rather to make money.
They treat the city concil and state senate like a game of surviver. Making alliances to help them further thier political carear. The two terms law makes things worse becasue they are looking from day one for thier next job thus feal they need to file lawsuit after lawsut to get thier name known.
The NY Bar preposed rasing the standard and toughing the exam. Lets say thier were a few lawsuits arguing a multitude of issue one being that it would create a shortage of lawyers.
I doubt that
" Many college graduates, especially those with non-marketable liberal arts degrees, wind up in law school basically because they've got few other options. Law school is particularly suited to liberal arts graduates not because of what it has, but because of what it does not have - no math, no science, no computers."
These graduates with such non-marketable degrees as a BS in ancient cuban art end up filling up such fine law institutions as Queens law. Queens law is known for producing ultra left wing libral activist who feed the political activist groups with a new generation of law suit writers
A little wisdom from one of my lawyer freinds. The more lawsuits you file, the more lawyers on both sides needed, the more judges needed, more billable hours. Everyone wins no matter the outcome
"All these grotesque "Have you been injured?" ads should be a clue"
Lets hope Bloomberg is successful in stiffing the tort laws on no economic pain and sufferinf which holds the city and mta liable for nearly eveything that happens in the city whether they control it or not. The trail lawyers maje a killing becasue the city often settles becasue it cost a fortune to trie and it is a crap shoot to win or loos.
Just attending the best schools, even Harvard and Yale, is not now and never was enough to ensure a good job at a prestigious law firm. Also needed is being in the top 10% of the graduating class, law review experience, and summer internship at one of the silk stocking firms. Those in the top 10% graduating from a 2nd tier law school get better job offers than those in the 2nd quarter of a top school.
Tom
By definition these are not yuppies.
Tom
Sympathy or no, Taylor Law or no, if they strike it costs a fortune and it hurts everyone. They have to be kept happy. That's life. They have the clout and they're willing to use it.
Not just in the public sector but in the private sector
The Domino sugar strike a few years ago cost hundreds of fairly good paying jobs. The union wanted more money, they shut down the plant, dominno moved the largest most labor intensive part of the production elsewhere.
Technology changes the whole equation. Does anyone on this board believe that the MTA will keep two man crews on the L once CBTC is fully implimented.
The more the TWU holds the city hostage and keeps driving in some cases overly generous salaries even higher. The better the ROI of investing in new technologies
Eventually the MTA will hire a technology savy Cheif technology office from the private sector who will revamp thier operatios from top to bottom reducing the headcount by 25% without missing a beat.
Next times the TWU threatens to strike. Watch the L run ZPTO and demonstrate to the public that we do not have to be scared by terroristic tactics anymore
If the TWU would have went on stike during the busy christmas shopping season, half the retail jobs in this city would have been lost with stores closing due to lost business. Stores make 40% of their sales from the day after thanksgiven to christmas eve
$40k ($50k with bennifits) tooken booth clerks is just outragious. What is even crazier is that ever S/A must be gaurenteed 35 hours. The workforce just as toll booth clerks should be made up of at leat 30% hourly part time workers to allow greater operational flexablilty
But look at the outcry over eliminating token booths. And it's not even because people want tokens; they claim it's a security issue. I have no doubt that trains can be fully automated but I'm not sure the public is prepared to accept that just yet. I think most people want at least one MTA employee on the train. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it seems to be the general sentiment. Personally, I think security is a job for police officers and not token booth attendants and conductors and train operators-- but most people disagree.
I agree with you completly. The people who diagree were fed misleading information. Most people I know could care less wheteher their is a tooken booth or not. I the TWU and straphangers camapign who are just looking for headlines and easy way to say we are doing something for you.
CCTV monitored by sewcurity professionals, roving security officer and police officer who could get real time pictures and video feeds to handheld will be far more effective in detering ad catching crime. As it is 2/3 of all station complexes are devoid of any security survailance
The MTA did not do a good job arguing thier point. Plus they need to consistantly keep MVM's filled plus do a better job of premoting third party retailers, They could even expand the third party network to allow newstands to program thier own cards ellininating the huge up front fees for third party resellers. Currently most resellers don't stock a wide selectio of card options.
The MTA is hiring two peoplw to premote mvm and third party retailers.
The L will have someone aboard at all times as far as I know. i was just pointing out if the TWU ever stroke the MTA has the option of going ZPTO. Once that happans and people see it is no big deal, they will accept it. As it is riders on 75' cars are isolated from the crew.
I rode the paris medior, it was a nice experience
Most operational jobs that are ussually held by middle class workers are located outside the city. Walls street has moved most of its operational postitions out of the city. Next time you mail in your credit card statement check, you'll see the adress is not a ny adress
This also includes such entry level positons as customer service, accounting, billing etc.
Conde Naste publications just moved all its accounting, finace and subscription services staff to Dallas leaving only the creative and editorial staffs of the magazine here in the city
The funny part is all the S/A who cry poverty at $40k are making more them many of the college grads who come to NY hungry for a chance to break into the advertising or media business. The average starting salary at an advetising agency id $25k plus 10-12 hour days.
If you have food on your table and a roof over your head you are NOT POOR or impoverished.
Some big name comapies who once had huge nyc workforces and mived a significant number of workers out of state, merril lynch, chase, Lever, AT&T, Proctor and Gamble, IBM, Merk, Uniliver, Met Life, NY Life.
The list goes on and on. The worst part is that we are not attracring new industries such as biomedical, technology's etc. NY is heading down the path to ruin. The working class takes it the most.
So who is left at the Conde Nast building at Times Square, next door to the ESPN Zone?
All the backend operations were moved out of state. The space these operations occupied is up for sublease and is currently empty
What I foresee as the next step is the movement of the "sales, marketing and front end" jobs out of New York, following the already departed back office jobs. Although most New Yorkers are too clueless/stupid/deluded/whatever to realize it, the labor pool elsewhere in the country, especially in the Sunbelt, is becoming more sophisticated, educated and skilled, even as New York's deteriorates. Just look at the cesspools that New York public schools have become.
Meanwhile, the "New York premium," in other words the extra costs that businesses must bear in order to operate in the city, has become harder and harder to justify to shareholders and others. Sure, New York has art museums, fancy restaurants and Broadway plays. Reality check: most businesses do not care about these amenities. They'd rather be where costs are lower. Let's face facts, the competition for businesses among cities and states is a zero-sum race to the bottom. As long as there's a decent talent pool and infrastructure, conditions which most Sunbelt locales now can meet, businesses will go wherever costs are lowest. And that's not New York.
Truthfully, I fear that in the not-too-distant future, New York will be a collection of life's losers - the impoverished, the homeless, the disabled, the retarded, the senile, and so on - and the Medicaid vultures who get rich off of them. Most of the productive people will have decamped for the Subelt and elsewhere.
The large reason for this is that the Boeard of ed has become a poltical mill for the democratic party. The district offices the mayor wants to consolidate into streamlines back end support centers for the schools and use the savngs to put into better guildence counsoling and parent coordiantors are the home of political cronnies who noone knows what many actuall do
"Truthfully, I fear that in the not-too-distant future, New York will be a collection of life's losers - the impoverished, the homeless, the disabled, the retarded, the senile, and so on - and the Medicaid vultures who get rich off of them. Most of the productive people will have decamped for the Subelt and elsewhere"
This has already happened. If it was not for the energy of many highly motivated recent immigrants, the outer boroughs would be 50% welfare cases who the entrenched social service institutions have an interest in keeping them impovereshed, telling them that "the man" is the reason why they are unhappy. Thier is a huge brain drain in the city. Most of the highe end jobs are held by out of towners .
My freind works for a major social service agency in queens helping diabled children to adjust to society. they recently pulled a child from him for which he was seeing significant progress. It was a business move becasue he is a part time worker(social services folks often work multiple jobs). A full time employee child killed himself so they needed to find her a new child for business reasons
Another friend is a medicaid coordiantor who advises and arranges medicaid reciepients in home to help coordinate services, Part of his job is to report problems with particular providers. The problem is the agency he works for also is a provider. He is in a tough spot when his agency does a poor job. Can he realy advise the parent to use someone else? of course not
"Meanwhile, the "New York premium," in other words the extra costs that businesses must bear in order to operate in the city, has become harder and harder to justify to shareholders and others. Sure, New York has art museums, fancy restaurants and Broadway plays. Reality check: most businesses do not care about these amenities."
The businees only care about the amenities when they need to attract the best and the brightest to compeat in a competitive marketplace, the national enquirer just moved back from florida becaue it could not attract enough good talented eriters and editors to cover entertainment issues.
it is sad when I hear union leaders in the city conplaining about salary issues. Most unions especially at the MTA already get paid way over the going rate for similar services in the city
The average tooken booth clerk made $10k more then an entry level teacher up until this year and they want more
I hear the building workers union complaining that it takes $40k to raise a family on one salary in nyc. OK it will cost more if we pay a doorman $40k. Most doorman make about an addtional $5-10k a year in tips tax free
The funniest quote of the week had to be from a bronx city concil member who claimed the TLC taxi exam descrimonates agains hispanics becase it is only given in english.
The last I looked 3/4 of all taxi drivers were not us born and here . How do these guyes get thier Hack licence and hispanic drivers do not. Their leaders do not make up excuses why they can not do somethibng. They put the time in and get it done
Another exampl eis the SAT is discriminatory against blacks and hispanics. Yet asians come here and do fine
This city politicians resort to blaming others and making excuses why thier group can't do something holding thier people down
How come you don't get upset at the execs who are making $100G+ a year. They're being paid by taxpayers too.
The TA has a ridiculous number of managers. Lets look at RTO, you have the Cheif Tansportation Officer, and several Assistant Cheif Trans. Officers below him. Then you've got a rather large number of superintendents.
How come nobody wants to pick on them, but rather the poor fools out there making the trains run and getting you into the system?
He is not. He talks a good game, but when it comes time to walk the walk, he does not go. He probably realizes that the Sunbelt paradises that he talks about so fondly are all low wage places with a lower standard of living than he has attained in NYC.
Tom
I already do. Living in Suffolk County, cars are a basic necessity. So I get to pay exhorbitant LIRR fares and the costs of vehicle ownership and maintenance. As you note, cars aren't cheap.
I would like to improve ny and not move. The problem is the local democratic political machine and union leadership(not the memembers) are greedy and don't want any change that will disrupt thier party.
take the school reorganization as a perfect example. It is not the kids the poiticains are worried about it is the loss of thier political power at he school districts where they put thier buddies in no work jobs. Each district had thier own tittles for each job and the central office had no clue who to call to get something done or what people did at the district office
Plus the reachers union head is more interestes in power the the kids. She is ticked that she is left out of meetings. In the past she co-led the B of Ed. we see how that went. She is mad that the chancelor is talking directly to actuall teachers. What a concept, the head of the school system talks with the actual instructors
Another example is the city unions refusual to give back some vacation time and extend the work week. The leadership worried about thier re-election prefered a few thousand of their memembers getting pink slips
The economics of NYC is out of hand. The union leadership and croket politicains are a large reason for this.
I wish I could conviently use mass transit to handle all my needs. It is just not practical where I live
Yes the quoted numbers if you take into account all the suspended licence, is a bit low. But no by that much
the average houshold in my neighborhood has 2-3 cars.
I've heard that in Brooklyn and Queens, and probably in the other boroughs too, counterfeit registration certificates can be purchased on the street for around $1,000.
I live in an apartment building with about 70 units. Four or five cars can park in front of the building. If other buildings have similar ratios, then all it takes is 1 in 14 families to park a car on the street to fill up all the curbs.
And that's only if nobody from out of town ever parks on the street, which is most certainly not the case.
Ah, but where are the new transit systems being developed or expanded? Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City, Denver, Phoenix ... Sunbelt cities, in other words.
Not true. I have not left New York for the simple reason that my job is here. I'll have been at the job for ten years this coming September, earn a decent salary, and have a respectable degree of responsibility.
As far as the Sunbelt is concerned, while salaries are usually lower than New York levels, so are most prices, so it basically evens out.
Great reasons to stay. But that proves the point that, in spite of all your praise of the Sunbelt, (you believe) you can not get as good a job as you have in New York. If you thought otherwise, you would be voting with your feet.
Tom
Take a ride out to vergas. For $230k you get a palace. If you are a skilled worker you end up WAY AHEAD. If you are a low skilled worker you end up the same
You see all those higher union salaries just raise the cost of everything, drive up taxes, chase business and agt the end of the day you are worst off then if the salaries were more resonable
I'm probably an atypical case. My particular field of expertise is rather esoteric, with only a couple of other companies dealing with the same area (one's in Washington, the other in suburban Chicago). Moving to the Sunbelt almost certainly would require a significant career change, not just a new job. I'm not at the point where I'm willing to go through that sort of thing if I don't have to. In any event, leaving a job after ten years, and starting anew elsewhere, is tough no matter what feeling is involves.
Speaking of the Sunbelt, it has rained in Atlanta everyday for the past three weeks. I forgot what the sun looked like.
I'll have to take back what I said, that New Yorkers are genetically less intelligent than people elsewhere. At least 10,000 of them each year are smart.
Let's face it, a burb is a burb. The only difference is the job and the cost of living. If you live on Long Island, and don't live near the water, no wonder you don't see the point. Remember, when Long Island was developed the suburbs were a new idea. They are old hat now.
However, in Brooklyn (and to an even greater extent in Manhattan) you can live a different life than you can in a generic burb. If you find that life attractive, you have no choice but to pay.
They aren't making any places like it in the Sunbelt. Seattle and Portland are probably the closest thing to a real urban lifestyle that has been created lately, and those states are in a funk that makes New York look prosperous.
Where else? Atlanta? I had a friend who talked the same game as Peter. Atlanta was his holy grail. Until he went there and found out (shocker) that it has terrible traffic and the central city is poor and has crime! Another New York hater thought he wanted to go to San Diego, but found that didn't work either, and ended up in Connecticut.
As mentioned previously, my parents were driven out of New York in the 1970s by unemployment, and I finished high school in Tulsa Oklahoma. But I came back. Three words: pizza, bagels, subway.
Hey, some people choose to do weird things.
Now that's a scary thought!
Let's not forget that many more New Yorkers might want to move to the Sunbelt but can't. Some people are like me, reluctant to leave decent jobs and start over elsewhere, while others have family ties keeping them in New York. And to keep things on-topic, New York's extensive transit system may be a reason why some people won't move. More accurately, New Yorkers who do not have cars or licenses, not needing them because of the availability of transit, might be reluctant to move to the Sunbelt notwithstanding the economy, because they'd have to buy cars and get licensed.
Actually, I was rather curious. My cousin lives in the Sunbelt, in Atlanta, and she's quite happy with her life. She makes good money, drives a decent car, and lives in a house (btw, she's in her mid-20s). Sometimes she does ask me if I'd go down there after I finish school, but I usually decline. I'd prefer to stay with my family in New York, and I'm not fond of the climate there either. I love snow and cold winters. The question to ask is what's better, money or your personal lifestyle and happiness. I'm rather happy in New York, and I don't plan on leaving right *now*.
A mansion, new construction, in ground pool, whirlpool, cental air, 4 bedroom 3 bath.
$225K
Car Insurance ful coverage on a BMW 540(his car) $675
Car Insurarance the same car in Brooklyn $5500
That price for a "mansion" sounds suspiciously low. House prices in Las Vegas and other dynamic Sunbelt cities are no longer quite the bargain that they used to be thanks to extremely strong demand. There's enough new construction, however, to keep prices from going through the stratosphere. On the other hand, I consider anyone who'd consider buying a house or apartment in New York to be either (1) completely deluded, or (2) a candidate for admission to Bellevue. The risk of major deflation is just too high, a consequence of the unemployment crisis.
As far as the car insurance issue is concerned, the huge price difference may be due to the fact that while Americans in general have become lawsuit-happy, New Yorkers are even worse. It's been claimed that a car crash in New York - the Bronx and Brooklyn in particular - is more than twice as likely to result in a lawsuit than a crash elsewhere. This is especially weird given the fact that crashes in the city are less likely to cause injury, given slow urban traffic speeds.
Blame it on all the underemployed lawyers in the city. Watch any late ight or afternoon TV and you will see dozens of ads for lawyers encouraging people to sue.
Sheldon silvers law firm is in the top 3 in tort claims against the city. Any wonder why he is using his powers to block tort reform that is out of control.
Also thier is a good deal of organized fraud which stages accidents in order to fie bogus suites with insurace conpanies.
The state sttorney generals office recently tripled it's enforcement unit tracking staged accidents and medical mills who fake mediacal records
As for the price of a large house $225k is right on target. 6 years ago a similar house would go for about $100k. My parents almost bought a home in Las Vegas area. 6 years ago a modest home went fot $50k. As coincidentce has it, I just spoke to my freind yesterday aboutr the subject. It goes to show you how overpriced new york real estate, especially in the five boroughs is.
http://www.homebuilder.com/lasvegas/communityresults.asp?Action=execute&SearchFor=Homes&Mode=Standard&Pos=1&smap=&NumItems=25&st=NV&AdultSrch=&isrc=&PriceLow=120000&PriceHigh=&Bedrooms=&Bathrooms=&SqFt=&image1.x=15&image1.y=10&poe=homestore
My co-worjer bought a one floor condo in a 3 family develepement for $325k. The developer happened to be and old high school freind. It cost about $150k to put up the entire sructure(3 apartments) using mexican illegal immigrants while they charge prices based on union labor
On top of the cost the developer pressures buyers to use his in-house finacing which is more eexpensive in most cases then getting a loan on your own
It's something you should consider. I've never been to Atlanta itself, except once to change planes years ago, but by all accounts it's a terrific city, with a dynamic, recession-proof, full-employment economy. I've heard that while the city itself has some rundown sections, like any city, the suburbs are among the best in the country. And of course MARTA's a pretty decent system, though of course it's not nearly as comprehesive as what you're used to.
As for the money vs. happiness/lifestyle question, consider that it's very difficult to maintain a decent lifestyle, or to be happy for that matter, if you don't have any money. New York may offer more varied lifestyle choices than most other places, but the city's catastrophic unemployment rate is the 400-pound gorilla that can't be ignored no matter how much one tries.
The city is in financial ruin, the politicians have made it much easier for nationwide moving companies to lure new customers wanting to relocate out of NYC, PERMANTELY.
The reason is the outragiuous union wages and work rules. This drives of the cost of state and city contruction projects and harms the govenments efforts to increase inefeciency
It is crazy to think that with the large shortage of teachers especially in math and science, teachers are stil allowed to take eabaticals at 75% pay. teachers need a break every so many years to avoid burnout. But concidering the current fiancial and shortage of Qualfiesd candidates(mostly becasue the low pay) Teachers should not be allowed to take sabatical right now
In addtion the over generous social progrmas which in many cases are providing services to people who come to the city to take advantage of the bennifits. Socaal service bennifts shoud be for true residents who lived here for at leaste 5 years
Not to mention all the silly requirements such as the rewuirements that one coantractor can not do more then one type of constructuion on a particular job which reduces effeicies and increases the chance of ffraud
Tort laws written by the trai lawyers association that akes the city liable for items it has no control over. For instance if you own a home, don't shovel the snow, the city is secondary liable if someone sues.
The cyclical sprial of welfare is one reason we are paying big time. Why should drugs addicts be entitled to welfare? Everone does deserve a chance at a helping hand now and then, but make it random drug testing for welfare applicants, fail the pissing test, you lose you benefits for a 5 year period, plain and simple.
No city cars should be allowed to be taken home, only Agency heads (Commissioners, and Managers should be afforded that right.)
Get rid of middle management at the multiple layred Dept. of Education. Kids come first over bureaucrats and their friends and family holding con jobs, outside people need it badly.
Which leads to increased junkie crime, muggings, burglaries, etc. and to increased spending on correctional facilities and police.
>>> No city cars should be allowed to be taken home, only Agency heads (Commissioners, and Managers should be afforded that right.) <<<
This means that those who have need of city cars in their work such as building inspectors, etc. would have to start and finish the work day at a central location, to check out and check in cars, and have a cup of coffee with their co-workers and therefore lose about five hours of productivity per person each week, plus increase the cost of maintaining the space and security for all the city cars stored in one location.
Tom
As it is the only people who can park anywhere including on meters south of cannal are city vehicles weekdays befor 7pm, even at meeters. Read the sings in the walstreet area. A waist of money in my mind and one of ther first thing bloomberg did was slash the cities motor pool and permits. Anyone tell me why every city concil idot needs a city car and permit. IT would be far cheaper to take a cab everywhere they giving out cars
Also many employees such as building inspectors DOI auditors and confidential investigators often have to do go to location early in the morning or late at night. The best place to arrest as supect is when he leaves for work(not to city workers who are stealing nad thik they ae geting away with it) I'd often get to a supects resident at 7 am waiting for him to leave for work
Each employee their milage on each trip each day. Depeding on the department the milage is strictly moitored. You also must enter the cars milage each time you use your gase card
One interesting note is that you get taxed on $4 a day for the use of the car as a frindge bennift.
If they had thier way they would keep increasing taxes. Bloomberg is in a situation where he HAS TO BALLANCE THE BUDGET BY LAW. He has not choice. He can not cut services to a level that will send the city into disarry
One positive cut that Bloomberg is instituting this summer is cutting garbage pickups to once a week in low density areas of one and two family homes. If residents recycle, there is not enough trash to warrent twice a week pickups. The reason it remains is that the city concil+union combo are against any change that results in the reducution of union payroles
Pataki's biggest srewup is his rush to close freshkills landfill before the city could impliment alternative plans. The result is the city is getting held over the fire in garbage removal rates. The original guiliani plan for the closings of fresh kills was to tie it to the building of the NJ/SI/Brooklyn rail tunnel. The cost now spent trucking the garbage out of state would have coverrd the cost of building the tunnel
Now, the RR hike I think was done rather poorly, but since this isn't about the RRs at all, I won't mention it further.
And I really don't give two flying ones if people agree with me or not.
It most certainly is about the railroads. LIRR and MNR were both named respondents, and were both included in the order to restore the old fares.
Mark
Well a hike had to come sooner or later I admit.
And I really don't give two flying ones if people agree with me or not.
I'm not agreeing OR disagreeing with you, I didn't know if you were serious or not. I'm basically saying that the MTA took the WRONG steps to justify a fare hike IMO, y'all want to respond that's fine.
---Chapter 11 MTA
all those interested email me offline
Which is the lowest level of state court in New York State.
If he had any ability to see into the future he never would have gone to New Jersey at all. :-)
Tom
If anything, I read the Post today and I spot several articles badmouth the Times for the recent story on a journalist who was discovered to be plagerizing information for stories.
The chain of courtage though was original.
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctstructure.htm
All straphangers camapign wants is more public hearings to get more sound bytes
David
In fairness, nothing that happens in the budget is democratic either. The MTA Board is not a democracy. Neither is the state legislature.
And they are right, the MTA didn't present a clear picture, and neither did the Governor prior to the election. Part of this is Hevesi and Thompson using the MTA as a pawn, to get back at Pataki for using the MTA as a pawn.
This is not good for the transit system.
I agree, but it hardly justifies a judicial act to reverse a fare hike. By the weak, lame rules in existance the MTA did nothing wrong
Part of this is Hevesi and Thompson using the MTA as a pawn, to get back at Pataki for using
the MTA as a pawn.
No, this is entirelyHevesi's and Thompson's fault, for convincing the public that there's no need for a 50 cent fair increase with a biased audit as full of holes and mirrors as the budget the MTA submitted at it's public hearings.
It should draw down its cash until none is left, as the Comptrollers suggested, and stop awarding capital contracts. Then, when it the MTA is at risk of not making payroll, it should cut service and maintenance. When people start accusing the MTA of allowing the system to go to hell, it should call for an audit. Some months later, after additional layoffs, it should start the public hearing process for a higher fare.
In the end, perhaps the bus system could be replaced with private vans without free transfer rights.
Kill the funpass, weekly, and monthly Metrocards. Only accept coin and tokens on buses until the system can be reprogrammed to elimiante free transfers. And reprogram the system to eliminate 11 for 10.
Reduce the incentive of buying in bulk. making it harder to reduce unneed token booths
drive up costs
reduce revenue.
Screwing the riding public
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-Stef
Nah, there's really no room for interpretation here. Regardless of the outcome of any appeal, the token will remain history.
Mark
All they need is a flat $1.50 fare. Remember, the average fare these days is $1.07, and the average fare increase was 25 percent. Of course, the commuter railroads already HAD monthly discounts in 1995, so I guess they get to keep them.
If the fare has to go up, then MTA should come clean and 'air their dirty laundry' for all to see. Otherwise F'em...I'll stand with the judge and Straphangers! Don't some of you 'live-with-parent types' realize that this town is getting TOO expensive for many of us to live in anymore! GET A LIFE!
---Chapter 11 MTA
The fact that they don't seem to understand the differece between operating deficit and other one time non revenue items is not my problem.
Highly political judges issue ruling in the best interest of themselves and thier relection campaign.
1/3 of all brooklyn judges are being invesigated for taking bribes to get rullings
the lawyer repreenting straphangers campaign gave a campain donation to the judger trying the case and they both belong to the same democratic club
All of the above was published in the times last week. The MTA chose not to ask for a new judge. whats the sense they are all apart of the same machine that is a modern day tamity hall
increased subsidies? that comes from higher taxes
reduced service and maintance? that drives riders away and end up casuing a bigger deficit
Be realistic hear. that is why I am so in favor of teducing costs in ways that woill not significantly effect riders
shorter trains with one man crews at night and on weekends
deploying cctv and in cab monitors to cut crews to one at all times
these are measures that will alow costs to come in line with expenses
Some of us know damn well the whole state has been cooking the books -- by going deeper and deeper into debt and underfunding the pensions which are now billions in the hole. The truth is the MTA is much worse off than they made it appear, not better. The books were cooked in the opposite direction. As we will find out -- fare increase or no.
That's a good point. Letting things go down the tubes because they're afraid to ask for more money is irresponsible too. The cost of a fare hasn't increased in almost ten years. Of how many other things apart from oil and personal computers can we say that?
One of the main reason the town is too expensive is the outragious salaries that are paid to many unuion workers which is paid for by increased taxes which chase private sector jobs and the tax dollars they bring in out of state.
Look at the facts
We are paying station agents $40+ k a year for a job that is not needed and comprable positions pay half the amoun if you cound bennifts.
It cost twice as much as it does in other cities to put up an office building or housing because union wages far exceed what is practical. Electrcians making $40 an hour. The union created a shortage in jobs in the boom years of the late 1990's not allowing unemployed members from locals outside NYC to fill the shortage driving up costs further
The fare hike can be avoided if the MTA takes a good look at how it spends money and work hard to modernze itself to cut labor costs. It is the only way to keep the fare in check and affordable for all
I wish the unions would fight for waht is in the best interest of the workers they represent.
they don't. they represent thier pocketbooks
Plenty of people get by on far less. What is thier a new definiton of poverty.
Teachers up until recently starting salary was $28k. So do investigators at DOI who don't come close to making $40k unless tjey have many years of experience. None of my coworkers were starving
teaches aids make $23 k a year
police officer start under $40k
Tooken booth clerks shoud make no more then $30-35 a year. And that is even VERY generous
Most people working in such industries such as fashion, television, advetising and customer service don't make anything near $40 k a year. They are not starving.
In this city as it is in most parts of the northeast both parents must work to get the extras in life.
Paying people more then the job is worth drives up the cost of living and taxes and in the end, you are worst off then if you made less. It amounts to soicaism which if you take a look at the soveit union and china it was a big failure
The cost of living so high becasue of outragious salsries the unions have won.
Just one example -- I make about the average for college graduates in the United States 20 years into my career and after a few promotions; I have a graduate degree and most college graduates in the New York area make more. Moreover, police officers, teachers and many others in New York's public workforce earn less in cash than those in the surrounding region and other cities. Take my word for it -- I know much more about this than I do about subways.
What is true, however, is that public employees work fewer years in a career before drawing a pension, and fewer days in a year, than private sector workers. This means that public employment tends to attract only people who, from their first day on the job, look forward to not working. Not good. There is an equity issue here, especially given what is happening to social security and private pensions. But don't overstate the case.
Selective relativly unskilled job title's make far more then they deserve while other more skilled job tiitle make less. It is a paradox that makes it hard for the city to hire and retain workers in skilled jobs that require a high evel of education. When I worked at DOI, the union secretaries made more the 70% of the college educated auditors and investigators leading to highr turnover.
A good example is a tookem booth clerk makes over $40k plus genrous bennifits worth $10k more. Bennifits that far exceed what is available in the private sector
A compoarable private sectoe job makes around $20-30k a year
Not to mention the job of fare sales is no longer needed. The slack could be picked up by MVM's, third pary resellers who could encode cards in the same way S/A now do. The lotery model
Teacher is a good example of a job tiitle that is drastically underpaid. Prior to thier recent raise, they starting salary was $28k. $40k with a masters and 10 years experience. How could you attract quaility trachers and principles to educate our children
My problem is that work rules often handcuff managers from improving effeciencies and to reward workers who do good work and work with subpar workers to improve to provise quality service to city residentds.
The recent scahdle at the DOT pot hole fillers is a perfect example. The work crews took 3 food breaks, went shoping at garge clothing and filled the very minimum of pot holes
An example of unions out of control is the PBA going to the press screaming that police brass wants them to inforce the traffic laws giving tickets out to violators. The union spined into the city is out to give fines to inocent people. Qaulity of life would imprive if the police would consistantly enforce all laws. Too often police turn thier head
A few of my frieds are officer and my feind father is a captain. They all speak of how veteran officers get on rookies if they issue too many tickets.
Not all city workers are overpaid. some are grossly overpaid. the problem is more with the work rules
They don't represent the railbuff viewpoint. Why should they?
The stappies are in a situation for which they outlasted thier original issue and are struggling to stay relevent. now that the subways are in a good state of repair, the focus now needs to focus on reducing the waste and antiquated procceses that drive up operating costs.
Reinventing the fare control system. Close all booth, increase the third party resellers network possible providing terminals to encode cards similar to the lotery model.
Turn the current S/A into securoty and station mangement roles
Reinvent the way buses and train are tracked, monitored ans schedules. Ellimninate the 300 traffic checkers that cost over $6 million a year. Deploy automated train and bus tracking.
Upgrade technology to reduce crews for two to one. Use CCTV platform cameras and in cab video screen to control doors
Run shorter more frewqunet service off hours reducing headways and increasing rider conviences such as easier transfered
Strappies are now alliiend with the TWU and people like Senator Eric T. Schneiderman's who trying to make a political name for himeself at the detroment of the public
Most of the 179 booth closing should close. the MTA's plan was inadequate and groups like the straphangers should focus on insuring the public interst is lookeda after such as increased security, handicap access etc. Instead he is anti anything the MTA does.
Strapies is not shy about releasing misleading often inaccurate studies. The most crazy one was that riders making less then $25k don't use discount metrocards
strapies never tells who and how they came up with the result, how may they interviewed wtc. Most reptiable survey organizations try to get a representitive sample. Strappies look for a sample that proves a predetermined conclusion
voiceofreason said, "Now that the subways are in a good state of repair, the focus now needs to focus on reducing the waste and antiquated procceses that drive up operating costs."
The subways are not yet in a state of good repair, although the situation is obviously a lot better than it was in the early 1980s. Many stations still have not been renovated. Many of the signals and switches still need to be upgraded.
Many of voiceofreason's ideas require significant capital investments to implement, assuming they are feasible at all. It is by no means certain that these are the best ways of spending limited resources.
I have found it an excelent source of information.
Capital investments that have a provable revenue or cost reduction stream attached can be justified in addition to capital investments that just improve service or allow service to be retained at existing levels. An example is the 7 extension. Similarly, capital investment that allowed reduction in S/As could be justified without reducing investment for signaling, etc.
The question with voiceofreason's proposals is whether after you do the capital investment the costs savings can really be achieved.
Now FORGIVE me, please, "voice" ... NOTHING PERSONAL. I know you're VERY sincere and thoughtful within the limits of your own perspective, but the "technology cures everything" mindset (check your NASDAQ short calls, please - I'll bet you owe them money, heh) is DANGEROUS ...
There is a MAJOR difference between what passes for reality in the financial and service industries, and what may seem VERY practical in "new build" transportation systems as well as in "developing nations lacking in tort reform", there is a MAJOR difference between what is acceptable for "software licensing" between "Hi, we're from Microsoft, we're here to lower your IRV's and TCO's" and "VITAL SYSTEMS" ...
READ your EULA ...
"THIS TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND IS NOT
DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR
RESALE AS ON-LINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS
ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING FAIL-SAFE PERFORMANCE,
SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES,
AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR
TRAFFIC CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR
WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF JAVA
TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL
INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL
DAMAGE. "
No OFFENSE, bro ... but let's get real. REAL subways or anything of VALUE do *****NOT***** run Windows ... we got LAWYERS. Closed circuit TV cameras that can have their lens spray painted ("security alert!") cannot be depended on either in such situations. Now if ANY software (the particular one quoted was from SUN MICROSYSTEMS - hint, NT is WORSE!) CANNOT be depended upon for "life vital" situations (such as public safety) then all this "tech-talk" solution to using "overpaid" hominids is kind of a waste of time. DEVELOP the "*****GUARANTEED*****" computer system, and well ...
PLEASE, no PERSONAL offense intended to you personally, but I have a problem with your WHOLE argument. Even AL GORE wasn't so stupid as to believe in Bill Gates. :(
But SERIOUSLY, SUN's JAVA (not to be confused with "Javascript" which is the SOURCE of all your damned viruses, worms, and other holes in your computer which lets 14 year olds run YOUR machine better than you, and which is the REASON why nothing works, but I digress) ... Sun's "*JAVA*" is pretty damned *SAFE* compared to Billy's neverending "worm du jour" ("Tish, you spoke FRENCH! Cara MIA!") in MS Javaslut ...
but if *SUN*, whose java engine STILL enjoys someWHAT of a "sandobox" to protect your computer, IMAGINE the RISK of Billyware where NO such warnings are issued, and Windows is LEGENDARY ... news DAILY of the LATEST hole, and then ... a NEW ONE ... same as the LAST!!!!
I warned of this in my TESTIMONY before the Federal Trade Commission in 1997 when I *warned* of what was to come of Microsoft's "integration of the internet into their OS" ... reason for mentioning it was, in view of the neverending security holes as a result, "Selkirk TOLD YA SO" ...
Now if a SANDBOXED operating system ("java ala Sun Microsystems") don't cut it, where *ARE* we with Billyware? :(
NOPE! I won't TOUCH transit that runs on "brakepipe error, move ANY handle to reboot train" ware ... NOPE! Not gonna do it ... READ MY LIPS. :(
A few months ago I said we in NYC weren't ready for ATO/CBTC. I pointed out that the engineering costs would offset the labor savings, and that the software would run into ROW obstruction problems. Sometimes we look to technology for unrealistic solutions. Call me a Luddite, but I still think the machines should be more to ASSIST, not REPLACE us...or as my grandfather said a few years back "I don't want that dam***d box to replace ME!"
And all we got was this qwappy XPee. Yep, 50 years later, STILL waiting for "Rosie da robot" to not be any worse than the cartoon. Heh.
After all, here in DIALUP LAND, I live in what Bruno and Paturkey call "Tech Valley" ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha. To DREAM the impossible (Verizon) dream ... 36KAY or bust! :(
Ayup ... Xpee uber alles ... and a dividend check TOO! (tax-free if you've got one) ... yep ... *I* screwed up running a software business in New York ... in AFGHANISTAN, they gots DSL ... all WE'VE got in the Empire State is a Paturkey PSC which says "Tech Valley can live on dialup, write check to Paturkey and we're cool with that." ... Yep, a dialup can run a subway too. If ONLY we'd move to FRANCE. THEY'VE got DSL everywhere too ... even MONTANA'S got DSL.
But THIS is NEW YORK! FIND the queen, find the queen, Looto jackpot is now $2 MILLION! Woohoo! :-\
Have you considered using Directway from Direct TV? It may not be as fast as cable or even DSL, but at least it's faster than dial-up.
Still amazing though that you can't get DSL or a T-1 even here in "tech valley" ... imagine if New York actually INTENDED to create jobs rather than talking about it. :)
A nice solution for those who can not get broadband is the new NetZero premium service. It speeds up normal web surfing by conmpressing web pages and content before sending them to you sqeezing more info into the 53k of available dialup bandwidth(for those who don't know 56k modems only operates at 53k due to fcc issues)
To think, I almost put the Tech Valley plates on my car.
Nah. Control will just tell you ignore it and signal for an RCI en route. Just "Call us when you overrun the next station."
XP isn't even safe for home computers much less safety-sensitive taaks like running a train. Leave that stuff to Unix.
BTW, I lost the link but there is a "Microsoft Windows XP Automobile Edition" and it sems companies like BMW are insane enough to use it. Good thing I'm a muscle kinda of guy anyway, points and carbs for me. :)
Many camrs are now using drive by wire and break by wire technology,
The nissan Maxima is one on such car
Yup... that's why my '94 Chrysler stopped dead on the highway every couple of miles (crank position sensor) and was getting 8 mpg (O2 sensor), while my '69 Ford doesn't have these problems.
Chrysler was known for poorly manufacturing it's products.
Your 69 ford also gets far less power and polutes the air 10 times as much as modern computer controled engines. todays engines run at tighter tolerances that allow the manufactures to get improved engine behavior
The GM 3800 v6 is the same basic engine that GM has been using for 30 years. Steadly improving computer engine control modules have allowed GM to improve power, fuel performance and emmisions on this old school engine.
Sorry I was wrong, not XP but CE. And you were wrong too. It seems its being used in the control computers. And who knows, by the problems with the R142s maybe its driving their computers too.
A spray painte security camera is still safer then an unmaned platform any day
Technology (in terms of monitoring a cideo) is no better than the UNION MEMBER HOMINID DOING SO ... the "monkey at the console" as it were ... WHERE does electronics improve on the eyeball?
Once again, I intend no malice, but "technology" is no better than the last subcontractor, or ***GASP!!!*** the last "MCSE" ...
SORRY, but given a choice, I'd trust ROGER TOUISSANT before I'd trust Bill Gates ... sorry .. I *****AM****** a programmer. Where's Roger's BUTT? I feel an URGE to SMOOCH it ... once again, no offense, but give me ROGER before BILLY! ***ANY*** ***DAY*** ... :(
Airplanes almost never go into their equivalent of BIE, but it took 40 years for them to get halfway safe and another 60 of steadily decreasing failure rates to get them to where they are today.
I am unable to get money out of an ATM a lesser percentage of the time than I am unable to get a subway to take me where I want to go. But getting the ATMs to that level of reliability also took 20 years.
Voiceofreason has many problems getting his message across: he doesn't write in readable English, he mixes minor technology improvements and major ones into the same thought, he doesn't address the major operational impact of some of his suggestions, etc. But eventually the suggestions he is making will come to New York. Just not that quickly.
OK, maybe a computer can make change (went to see Mister Money today and Mister Money was broken) but I sure wouldn't want to see one running a train. I'll take the bus if that's the choice ...
They don't run on microcrap windoows. the run highly reliable unix based operating systems
How many elevators do you hear about crashing. Most elevators are microprocessor controled.
Most elevator accidents occur when the elevator is undergoing manintance and is all safety features are not engaged
While the TA didn't continue the "automated train" program as a result of TWU's displeasure with the idea, valuable lessons were learned that had MORE to do with the TA shelving automation. The lessons were how insanely expensive it would be to retrofit a 100 year old system for automation. 40 years later, it's STILL too expensive although slowly, provisions are being made to make it possible perhaps another 40 years down the road.
But for all the talk about automation, the purpose of it is more to determine exactly WHERE trains are in the system and a means to shoehorn in MORE trains safely rather than actually RUNNING the trains. Elevators by contrast are pretty simple and have few variables. I still wouldn't expect a computer to handle a 12-9 properly and if a train spontaneously dumps on the road, I wonder if a computer would be able to walk the tracks and deal with it.
Lemme put this another way ... would YOU feel safe riding in a computerized taxicab on Broadway?
A central server that cost a few hundred thousand dollars 40 years ago now costs less then $5 thousand dollars.
Todays railcars are better suited for automated operation. The onboard electroncs are 1/1000 of the cost of 40 years ago.
Computing power today is dirt cheap and far more reliable then 40 years ago
The ecomimics of upgrading the system for automation is differnt now. 40 years ago you were not paying train crews $100 thousand dolars per crew with cost rising even more each year
The signaling system needs to be completly replaced anyway. so the costs of installing a completly new signalling sytem is offset by the needed replacement cost of the old system making it more affortable.
"But for all the talk about automation, the purpose of it is more to determine exactly WHERE trains are in the system and a means to shoehorn in MORE trains safely rather than actually RUNNING the trains."
Really. Not true. If you believe the MTA is going through all the trouble to install CBTC on the L without the intention to have a central server drive the train you are nieve.
"Elevators by contrast are pretty simple and have few variables."
Computer systems are desinged to handle more variables. They excell at them.
" I still wouldn't expect a computer to handle a 12-9 properly and if a train spontaneously dumps on the road, I wonder if a computer would be able to walk the tracks and deal with it."
In most cases you will still have a crew member aboard to handle it or you qould simply have a responce crew that handles such issues.
In the mean time CCTV platform camera;s could be used to reduce two man crews tro one creating economies of scale until all the lines are eventully updated as the useful lfe of the signaling system demands the upgrades
Or for VB fans like Selkirk:
If TwelveNine Then PhuckIt
I'm sure that the TA wouldn't be so dumb as to go completely operatorless. Other cities still have personnel on board. So the train goes BIE and the operator has to investigate just like (s)he would now.
But I still think computer controlled subways are a bad idea in NYC.
But you forgot your includes and defines ... that dog won't compile. Add this:
#DEFINE TWU=100;
#DEFINE TRUE=FALSE;
#include
#include
#include <$bribe.h>
union {AFL-CIO, AFSCME, DC37} CONTRACT;
Should compile now and stop the train. Don't forget to link with announce.lib or you'll be in a whole WORLD of hurt. :)
Nah, I do it in C myself. VB is so ... primitive.
But you forgot your includes and defines ... that dog won't compile. Add this:
#DEFINE TWU=100;
#DEFINE TRUE=FALSE;
#include < pataki.h >
#include < bruno.h >
#include < $bribe.h >
union {AFL-CIO, AFSCME, DC37} CONTRACT;
Should compile now and stop the train. Don't forget to link with announce.lib or you'll be in a whole WORLD of hurt. :)
Linux although technically open source is now supported by the likes of IBM who supply who provide the product support. Older unix based manufactures such as SUN are on the roops. In fact their is an article in todays NYTIMES concerning SUN being a takeover target.
Clustering technology conbines multiple computer to act as one. For example if computer 2 fails, computer 3 picks up it's load. The calling application is blind to what is going on the backend. it results in near 100% uptime
$5000 is a bit high for entry level, Dell's entry level server packages can be had for as little as $300 including a single pentium 4 processors, one raid controler and two 100 gb hard drives.
These days the service contracts and software cost more then the systems. The systems are dirt cheap.
For $5000 you get not only the server with multiple processors, all the redundent hardare(multiple power supplies, fans, hot swappable drives, multiple raid controllers etc) and servcice and support of both the hardware, o/s software etc.
Not only are costs 1000 times cheaper, but the technological possibilities are more the engineers 40 years ago could immagine. The current system being deployed by NYCT on the L is based on wireless technologies not possible 40 years ago. Fiber optic technology used to communicate between wireless points was not even invented 40 years ago. Such fiver optic technologies are 1/100 what they cost 10 years ago.
Universal protocals for communications between differnt devices exists today that would have all had to be designed from scatch 40 years ago.
As for the load requirements. the PC on your desk is more powerful than anything the MTA would have used 40 years ago to manage train operations. The comadore 64 was more powerful then the computers aboard the first flight of the space shuttle Colombia. Columbia first flight was 1980 20 years ago
Huge server farms are not needed to manage automated train operations. As compared to other computing tasks, the computing power needed to manage the subway system is not as great as you may think. A few hundred trains and switches is nothing as compared to the thousands of requests a secound modern computers routinly handle.
Most likly ATO would be deployed with a distrubuted network of rather inexpensive servers connect together via fiber optics and communicate to the trains via wireless protocals
Concidering the few clustered intel boxes costing less then $10k each are replacing entire rooms of mainframes and minicomputers costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, the costs of upgrading for automated train control are far cheaper then manual control train operations.
I saw wirh my own eyes back in 1999 at IBM's sothbury CT data center. A 100 by 100 room of mainframes was reduced to 5 clustered servers running the majority of citibanks banking operation. I was interviewing with IBM global services at the time.
As for the cost of such systems. They are far less expensive then manual train operations. Labor costs for manual train opeations cost in the $ Billions a year.
The real expense is replacing a signaling system that is not past it's useful life. If you look at the MTA's capitol projects, they have already installed fiber optic lines throughout much of the subway system, they are building new central control centers.
Is that a trick question? Its gotta be safer than some of these guys out there.
Lemme put this another way ... would YOU feel safe riding in a computerized taxicab on Broadway?
Yeah, you make some good points there Selkirk automation will take a LONG time and a computer cannot do things a human could i.e. checking a stalled train. As for your comment regarding the taxicab, as I understand it human taxi drivers are dangerous but I could imagine a computerized cab ;-).
As stations are renovated, include many of the features such as CCTV cameras to cover the entire platform. Currently they are installing CCTV at most renovated stations but they are only covering parts of platforms where there are blindspots. Since the contractors are already thieinstalling the CCTV, the cost of adding addtioal cameras is not that great.
the time to advocate for upgrades is now while money is being spent to upgrade stations and infrastucture. It is important to make the right choices so that money does not have to be respent latter to modify equiptment
Capitol expentitures such as Platform CCTV, car modifications to allow the T/O to control al the doors from the front of the train, in cab cctv Return on investment is rather quick. Granted that such car upgrades are only cost effecive on equiptemnt that you plan to keep in service for at least 15-20 years (r46 and newer)
The best way to spend money is on those items that will save you money.
Not necessarily. Other meritorious ways to spend money include: adding service; increasing reliability; refurbishing dilapidated stations; and, bringing new riders onto mass transit.
The fare is now $1.67 or less for anyone who lives in New York City and uses the system 6 times in 2 years.
In the early 60s you could get a nice mid sized sedan for $2000. Try getting that now for $16,700.
Try getting a slice of pizza for $1.67, for that matter.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I do agree with you, a slice of Pizza is hars to come by today. I haven't seen a slice in NYC so that will go any lower that 1.50...
Funny you should come up with that figure... that's EXACTLY the price (before taxes and tags) that my daughter paid for her top-of-the-line 2000 Ford Taurus SEL as a leftover in May 2001. And I'm not sure where you're getting that $2000 figure from... a compact Ford Falcon four door sedan, 6 cylinder, three-on-the-tree, no power anything, had an MSRP of $2082 in 1965. Add a heater and defroster, outside mirrors, backup lights, windshield washers, automatic, air conditioning, power steering and brakes, and an AM radio (the only kind you could get) and you were up past $2600, with a delivered price (before taxes and tags) a bit over $2400.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not? With the proffered volume discounts it's not that much. And basically, that's life. I don't want the abandonment and breakdowns of earlier decades. Geeze, and how can improvements get done without sufficient funds? It's still WAY cheaper than owning a car, which gets you with either monthly payments for years if it's a new car, or methodical lump-sum payouts if it's a used car. Nice sized chunks too, $150, $600, $1800, etc. Along with the increased rish to life and limb that comes with immersing yourself within a chaotic matrix of quasi-ballistic "objects-in-motion". Riding the trains is one of the more civilized ways of getting around.
Two bucks? Yeah, okay. I can get from 20th Avenue in Bensonhurst to Times Square for that? Good deal. I've walked it; takes a couple hours. And poor as I am, I sure as hell ain't gonna ask the city I live in to re-structure itself to facilitate someone like myselfs' need to get around. I won't eat the seed corn. A deuce ain't squat.
For many riders like myself the fare is lower then it was in 1984
Yes 1984. I live in a former two fare zone
Currennt fare after discount at $10 $1.67
Fare in 1984 for my dad to get to work $1.80 ($0.90 bus + $0.90 train) for a far crumier service, no a/c and frequent breakdowns
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
T/O startting salary $23.85 gaurentted at least 40 hrs = $49,608 before night weekend diferential + 2 hr OPTO Bonus +$10k + in bennifits
A rather fair pay scale but concidering the working conditions.
With two man crews this cost is way too high from an operational point of view. One many crews would allow better service
S/A
Aprox $20-24 hr $41,600-47,800. Once again gaurentted 40 hour work week hampering the MTA's ability to schedule booth hours when needed. An example would be a yankee game may need more S/A. Under the current work rules overtime would need to be paid at a higher rate. Thier should be some part time workers to allow for flexibikity.
Forbes magazine just came out with an article ranking the nation's 150 largest metropolitan areas by their attractiveness to business. New York was well down the list at 92, and in fact was dead last in terms of business costs. Only the high skill levels of many workers kept its overall ranking from being even worse.
By the way, the best areas, in order, are:
Austin
Boise
Raleigh
Atlanta
Madison
Provo
Omaha
Des Moines
Dallas
Washington
Note that six out of the top ten, or maybe seven depending on how you classify Washington, are in the Sunbelt. Get the hint?
Austin
Raleigh
Atlanta
Provo
Dallas
Where is #6?
Boise. While Idaho may not be part of the Sunbelt in climatological terms, it certainly so qualifies in a cultural and political sense.
I was recentlu offered a job in richmond VA. The money was half what I making in NYC. I checed out how much an apartment cost.
For $750 a month I could live in a nice apartment developement in walking distance from work, indoor pool, gym etc.
In NYC my condo carrying charges for maintaice(by overpricedunion janitors) is $600 a month
that is $600 a month on top of my mortgage for a basic middle class building in brooklyn.
And the building workers union had the nerve to want to go on strike. This assertion that all workers no matter the job or dedication to that job should be paid enought to raise 2 children a dog and a family vacation is socialism and is crazy.
Thar is what the building workers union wanted $41k a head.
All that does is drive up the cost of apartments and condo on working and middle class new yorkers. It does not mattet to the wealthy.
Great. Now we're descending into regionalistic squabbling. Look, all those towns west of the Hudson and south of the Outterbridge are nice and fun to visit and all. But, c'mon already! They're bush league in comparison to the Big Town. Most of their "city streets" are generally empty of life compared to just about any regular New York block. And the food sucks, by and large. Ever see fruit in supermarkets? It cracks me up that the average New York fruit stand has better fruit available than the global megamarket congloms can offer. With all their buying power.
We're in the middle of it so we forget how much this is so. Until we cut out for a while. Like, I was in Tampa a few months ago. Not a bad looking place but....hardly any pedestrians. It's always weird to see those skyscraper-type buildings sitting on empty sidewalks. You expect flows of people. Nothing. No delis, few "grils", a few pizza joints (they don't deserve the proud New York name "parlor"), just not much to wander into. Though it looks good from a distance....
That, I think, is what makes it worthwhile to live here in New York. In the end, it's the people. Sheesh, look at Flatbush Avenue, or Park Avenue. Nowhere else but here.
New York's vibrant street life indeed is a fine thing. Unfortuantely, all too many New Yorkers have plenty of time on the street - because they don't have jobs. These characterless Sunbelt cities and suburbs may be less enjoyable that New York, but at least people in those places have jobs. And that's all that really matters.
Really? I don't know about that. Obviously, the majority of New Yorkers have jobs. We AIN'T the Sunbelt so OF COURSE the pressure is harder here. Ipso facto. But I'll tell you this: our minds are sharper for it. I guess I'd rather be smart/"poor" than numb/"comfortable". At least here, you can take a stroll down the more tonier boulevards, happy as a jaybird, taking in the atmosphere, letting it uplift you and give you new zest for tomorrow. How many people in all of America can walk amongst the "rich folk" and nobody cares a whit? With all the gated communities going up I'd bet not many. So there's another benefit to living in hectic New York City. We get to be closer to the monied society. Which is very good for a democracy. Thank G-d for New York streets, the great equalizer.
It ain't all being able to manage the cable payments and the car and the new bedroom set.
Although NY political structure and out of control unions and lower cout judges handcuff the cities ability to provide services and keep taxes down, NY can come back.
Union memembers need to hold thier leaders accountable for thier actions. The PBA is paying $100,000 out of union dues to try to discredit the plice commissioner for enforcing such laws as the cell phone ban while driving, seatbelt law, red light running and dangerous driving
The campaign is trying to scare the public into thinking the NYPD is just out to raise money at the expense of the public. the last I looked if you break the law you pay the price
Personally as a law abiding citzen I welcome the effort. Too long do New Yorkers have to deal with those who ignor traffic safety laws. Some lady was cursing me out becasue i would not allow her to make a U-turn on ave U and ocean mid block.
One of the biggest complaints of ex-NYers is that they have to deal with those who do not follow the law.
What is the sudden urgency for the campaign. You guessed it the PBA president is up for re-election
First of all, $40,000 is poverty level in NY. What should a token clerk make, minimum wage?
Hell yeah. I mean why should TA workers be allowed to make a living? We are "civil servants" and deserve to live like them right?
Ok, sarcasm aside. Also, what you overlook when looking at an S/As salary is that IT IS THE MAXIMUM PAY FOR S/As. Like wise for other positions.
Top pay for my title is somewhere in the range of $43G. I have gone through two titles and have only made the starting salary in each (which roughly right now is $33G). So how could one classify me as one of the higher paid employees when I'm making $10G less?
The point, stop generalizing the slary of all TA employees.
And if $40G is poverty level, then I hate to know what I am... :)
And I'm not alone. You have a great number of new employees not making near your stated figure.
And why am I not surprised over the mention of S/As here...
The word poverty has been spun to mean can not buy the BMW I wanted instead of the true meaning of not enough money for food and shelter.
My dad raised a family of 5, paid for 3 children to go to college on a little over $40k in salary. Of course he saved some money and invested it in the stock market and a home and which allowed hime to earn a bit more.
My point about the S/A is that we are paying a position twice the going rate and they complained they are underpaid. If we pay people twice the going rate, the money gets steared away from more important things such as more subway service, more cops, better paid teachers etc.
Yes someone has the right to earn a living, but that right does not mean that they need to be paid that amount for any job they do.
With that logic we should pay janitors $50k etc
The more you overpay for a particular job the higheer you must raise fares and taxes which have other concequences
Thier needs to be a balance. The balance is out of wack.
A station agent gets paid more then a Asst. Trans.Mgmt.Analyst at the MTA which is a position that is highly skilled and has the potential to save tons of money if filled with a good candidate for which you will not get at that salary
Can I see where you got that figure?
General Analyst Positions
Title: Asst. Trans.Mgmt.Analyst I, II
Department: Subways
Salary: Level I $42,480 - $50,291
http://www.mta.info/nyct/hr/postings/analysts.htm
The salary for this position is about $15-30k below a comprible position in the private sector
Level II $49,325 - $54,935
Second, the TOP pay of an S/A is about 1G more than the STARTING pay of a level I.
Do you get the difference yet? You can't say "An S/A with 3 years on the job makes more than a new GAP." THAT COMPARISON MAKES NO SENSE.
Top pay for level I takes many many yeas to achieve.
The one thing you may not know, is that moving up in pay is not gauranteed. the fact that the salary ranges up to a certain level is not an indication of what you will earn. when I worked at DOI the salary range for my position was $30k-55k. I knew of no-one who made anywhere close to 50k hense the high turnover rate
Also remember that such job requires a 4 year degree, plus tons of other skills. Top people will not apply for the job due to it's low salary, skilss needed and the availablilty of much better pay other places. the TA ends up getting secound rate candidate for the most part except for a few perople who truely enjoy transit issue
Maybe they don't need as much as they said as soon as they said it was needed as urgently as they claimed. But anyone who thinks new subway lines and other desperately needed capital improvements will ever happen without lots of additional funding is wrong. As I'm sure I've said, I'm tired of hearing the MTA cry "Poverty!" Give them the money and let's start demanding results to show for it.
it is time we form a subtalk transit advocacy group.
All straphangrs campaign is one lawyer and two organizers(public complainers)
All we need to do is print a few leaflets and alert the tv statiions that we are having a news confernce in X place
No offense, but being for a fare increase can hardly be called "transit advocacy".
It certainly can. People in favor of a fare increase would be AGAINST deferred maintenance and service reductions. What's the point of a cheap subway if it's a piece of shit?
Still the subway does not pay off its capital expenditures with the fare.
Arti
2 man crews, manual towers, manual bus trackers. Ineffecient off peak scheduling using full length trains
And who ever said it was a right to buy a fare from a human teller at each and every fare control
One does not leave his house without money and keys in his pocket. One should not leave his house without proper fare for the subway or bus
For years bus riders needed exact change to ride the bus. Why should the subway be any differnt
the truth is that the MTA is lagging in achieving operational effeciencoes brought on by technology. It has a long way to go to catch up
A good place to start is begining to roll out line by line one man cres using CCTV platform camera's and in cab flat pannel monitors.
It only makes sense to upgrade R46 and newer equiptment for such service. Not all line could use such an arrangements but it would save hundreds of millions a dollars a year and be just as safe or safer then the current arrangements.
The first line could be utilizing this system within months
It probably costs more to break and make up trains than just running them full length for most of the day.
And who ever said it was a right to buy a fare from a human teller at each and every fare control
Its not, but human tellers can often be more efficient with high volumes of people, especially with cash transactions. Also, a human presence in each station is a significant boost to customer service, customer safety and the protection of subway property.
How do you define "first class" service? Free coffee and doughnuts to 7 million customers. Both Dunkin Donuts and Krispy Kreme will file Chapter 11 as early as tommorrow.
You speak the truth.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Just a coupla' stingy TA cash heads up top WHO DON'T LIKE TO SPEND THE MONEY THEY (proven) HAVE
to FUND the BEST Subway System on the planet... barnone.
If you brahs have the money to SUPPORT this fare hike, why not
start by SUPPORTING your fellow posters to whom $1.50 is a g*dsend.
In the same bowl of course.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If you ride more than five times in two years, buy a MetroCard for $10 and you'll pay only $1.67 per ride, and get free transfers to the bus to boot.
If you don't ride more than five times in two years, your complaint is over a grand total of $1.25 or less per year.
The average rider pays no more then $1.60 per ride
People in forer two fare zones are still paying less then tehy were paying in 1995
So we waisted a hundred thousand dollars in court time to slap the mta on the wrist. The people who are going to flip the bill are the subway an bus riders
I've taken the liberty to fix your statement, if you don't mind.
There was a free bus-to-subway transfer in 1984?
B35 to the F at Church Av
B42 to the L at Rockaway Parkway
B46 to the 3 & 4 at Utica Av
Bx55 to the 2 & 5 at 3 Av/149 St
Why was a heavy commuter line such as B2 to kings highway D Q M left out
And if the B42 does, why don't any of the other buses that terminate there?
Currently all buses go to the end at SC.
The P/T branch on the B17 also used to end at RP, now it's a loop for the rush hour/evening Avenue L branch.
There was also free transfer at Gun Hill Road to/from the 2.
The reason there was a free transfer on the Bx55 was because it was a replacement for the Bronx portion of the 3rd Av El. When the El operated people could trasnfer between it and the subway lines at no additional fare. The paper tranfer to the bus was to continue that ability.
The B35 transfer was to replace the transfer from the Culver Shuttle which was/is now covered by the B35 bus.
The B42 transfer was a "leftover" to compensate for the cutback in the Canarsie line service (trolley)way back in the early days of the BRT/BMT from the Canarsie shore to Rockaway Parkway.
I have no idea as to the history on the B46.
But technically, you were not obligated to take the subway after using either the B46 in Brooklyn, the Bx22 in the Bronx, or the Merrick Blvd buses (forgot to mention that), they had the "Save a Dollar program". You just have to posses the R/T bus ticket and use the only bus stop closest to the station.
Some residents in S/E Queens worked in the Jamaica Center area so it was a big help for them.
Also, prior to 1988 there was a special bus transfer between the buses at High St (B57, old 62, 67, 69 and 75) to the A train. But on return, you can only get your transfer ticket at B'way-Nassau station in Manhattan.
Amount paid by person in two fare zone in 1984: $1.80
Amount paid by person in same place in 2003: $1.67
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And if youse happen to be the 4839893879875332.3 customer, youse
get a big, red, oily, greasy storm door handed you for $100 +
no shipping cost.
I agree, please kill the $7.00 fun pass, no one is going to buy it.
The whole purpose of the new fare structure is to favor frequent riders over those who ride less often. Plus reduce then number of total transactions at MVM's and tooken booths saving on the cost of selling fares. A worth y endevor
Plus you want to keep fares in even dollars to put less stress on MVM's so that they do not need to stock quarters as change and so they can stock more dollar coins
The MTA's discount policy favors frequnet users who cost less to service and to sell fares to and pushes higher costs on tourists and infrequne t users AKA favors thier best cistomers over the occasional customer
The fun pass is priced right at $7. People were abusing the fun pass at $4, The fun pass at $4 added unneeded transactions at mvm's. The $7 price encourages riders to purchace a $21 weekly pass which in the end is more cost effective for both sides if the rider is a regualr user
No joke. I can look for and scan the article from the brooklyn skyline if you like
People who buy fares more often in smaller amounts cost more to serve then those who buy more in larger qauntities.
Consider that S/A get paid $23 hour. at an average(not a station like 42nd st) station a S/A services no more then 20 cusotmers per hour. That measn each transaction cost nearly $1. Those who buy single tokens(when sold at the booth) were paying $1 for the cost to have someone to sell the the fare and $0.50 for the ride
More smaller transactions at MVM's requires stocking more change, reciepts, and maintance for the machine
Why should these people shoulder the costs of those who choose to buy in smaller quantities.
Aside from the unemployed railbuff, those who used fun passes for daily commuting are trying to get something for nothing. the purpose of the fun pass is to attreact tourists
Doesn't it make a slight difference how and when those fares are used?
The typical Fun Pass ueer makes a bunch of short trips, mostly off-peak. It costs NYCT practically nothing to provide short off-peak trips. The cars are on the property, the tunnels are in place, and the crews are even working (ask Stephen Bauman why I say that).
The typical 30-day user takes two long rides on rush hour trains. Long rides on rush hour trains are expensive. New lines are occasionally built to meet rush hour demand. Car purchases must be sufficient to satisfy rush hour demand. Crews must be deployed in sufficient quentities to satisfy rush hour demand.
I'd love to buy, say, a 20-day nonconsecutive card for the same $70 a 30-day consecutive card sells for, but no such card is available. You can't blame Fun Pass users for not making bulk purchases if no bulk purchases are available.
Consider that S/A get paid $23 hour. at an average(not a station like 42nd st) station a S/A services no more then 20 cusotmers per hour. That measn each transaction cost nearly $1. Those who buy single tokens(when sold at the booth) were paying $1 for the cost to have someone to sell the the fare and $0.50 for the ride
Fun Passes were never sold at booths.
More smaller transactions at MVM's requires stocking more change, reciepts, and maintance for the machine
So the 75% increase in the price of a Fun Pass is to cover the cost of the receipt?
Aside from the unemployed railbuff, those who used fun passes for daily commuting are trying to get something for nothing.
Those who use Fun Passes for daily commuting are stupid. In case you didn't notice, a 30-day pass costs 10 times as much as a Fun Pass.
The Fun Pass is -- or was, I should say -- very useful for the noncommuter who has to run a few errands.
No. So many regular NYCers were using it that NYCT was loosing money it thought it would have. Fun pass was only to be for tourists. When people realized they could get it and spend less on 3 trips, it became a cost drain.
How was NYCT losing money on the Fun Pass?
When messengers and other intensive travelers made 5 trips in 1 day, 2 of them in the rush hour, and paid $4 instead of $6.82.
The Fun Pass met some good social objectives, but it did cost them money.
Those midday rides are practically free. So a messenger who did use a Fun Pass would be paying $2 per rush hour trip per day. That's more than what a 30-day unlimited cardholder or even a PPR user paid per rush hour trips.
Thanks in part to an affordable Fun Pass, the majority of subway rides shifted from peak to off-peak. That's an amazing accomplishment -- not as a social objective, but as a cash-saving objective.
Something is not clear here. If the majority of rides shifted from peak to off-peak, then there would be a new peak period in what had been off peak hours. The old peak hours would be non-peak.
It seems to me, that the fun pass may have increased off-peak usage, but did not decrease peak usage. Although the additional off peak usage could be handled at little additional cost, without a reduction of peak usage, there was no cost savings, and to the extent that fun passes replaced revenue trips that would be taken anyway, it cost the MTA money.
Tom
There are more hours in the off peak than in the peak. Therefore the majority of rides can be off peak, but the number of riders per hour can still be higher at the peak times.
to the extent that fun passes replaced revenue trips that would be taken anyway, it cost the MTA money.
Exactly correct.
Fun Passes encouraged short midday subway rides among those who might otherwise walk between errands, or use subway-bus transfers to make multiple stops, or even drive (midday traffic isn't terrible and short-term metered parking is easy to find in most of the city).
It worked for me in all three ways. Now I'll go back to walking or taking the bus or driving, and NYCT won't get my $4.
Now, can someone explain to me how NYCT benefits from offering a $70 30-day unlimited pass?
Because the 30-day pass now costs LESS than a standard 30-day work month on pay per ride, more people will be using the card. If you already have an unlimited ride card, you're more likely to make that weekend trip by subway instead of by car.
The Fun Pass brings in money for those empty off-peak seats. The 30-day unlimited doesn't -- in fact, it reduces the cost of peak travel, which is expensive to provide.
The new price structure is better.
OTOH, the vast majority of 30-day unlimiteds are used during both rush hours on nearly all weekdays in the month, and they're used for longer rides, on average. Why should someone who rides rush hours only get a discount?
Who do you think costs more to accomodate, ten typical Fun Pass users over the course of a day or one typical 30-day unlimited user over the course of a month?
Would you object to a $5.00 Fun Pass that isn't valid between 6 and 9am on weekdays?
You suspect. Do you actually have any evidence to back that up?
OTOH, the vast majority of 30-day unlimiteds are used during both rush hours on nearly all weekdays in the month, and they're used for longer rides, on average.
How are you sure that they're used for longer rides? Would a person who lives closer to the CBD be less likely to use a 30-day pass for commutation, or would that same person be more likely to use a fun pass for short trips?
Who do you think costs more to accomodate, ten typical Fun Pass users over the course of a day or one typical 30-day unlimited user over the course of a month?
I don't know how a "typical" fun pass user rides.
No, but I make educated guesses in the absence of hard numbers. I've seen neither hard numbers nor educated guesses from you.
Almost everyone on the subway in the morning rush is commuting to work, and most commuters commute every weekday. The Fun Pass, even at its former price, is a bad deal for a daily commuter.
Counterargument?
How are you sure that they're used for longer rides? Would a person who lives closer to the CBD be less likely to use a 30-day pass for commutation, or would that same person be more likely to use a fun pass for short trips?
I don't understand your question. Nobody is likely to make more than two long commute-length trips per day -- any additional trips are probably short, hopping from errand to errand or from tourist site to tourist site. The 30-day unlimited is priced to be attractive even to someone who only takes those two long commute-length trips per day; the Fun Pass, even at its former price, isn't attractive without at least one additional trip.
I don't know how a "typical" fun pass user rides.
Then turn on your brain and figure it out -- or at least refrain from engaging in an argument if you don't have the hard numbers and are unwilling to make educated guesses.
The average 30-day unlimited user makes at least 40 commute-length trips per month, probably but not necessarily during rush hour. He may take more rides but that's the bare minimum.
The 30-day unlimited sells for exactly 10 times the price of the Fun Pass.
Does the average Fun Pass user make at least 4 commute-length trips per day, probably but not necessarily during rush hour, as a bare minimum?
What do you think?
Again: would you object to a $5 Fun Pass not valid during the morning rush?
No.
If you use it 100 times in a period of three weeks or less then it's a waste.
Not if the daily commuter only needs the fun pass once or twice in that month.
Again: would you object to a $5 Fun Pass not valid during the morning rush?
No.
It cost a good sum of money to per transaction. About a $1 a transaction at a booth. Somewhat less at a MVM
Multipley $2.82 cents by a couple of hundred thousand fun passes sold per year plus the cost of selling the fare and it adds up to a big money looser.
Monthly and weekly passes make more sense for the intensive user and customers alike. Raising the price of fun passes more then weekly and mobthly passes helps more customers and keeps costs transaction costs down
I came up with $2.82 as part of an example in the posting he was replying to.
Before the fare increase, 5 rides with a Fun Pass cost $4.00. Without a Fun Pass, they cost $6.82.
NYCT makes money on the Fun Pass when it pulls people onto the system who otherwise would have traveled some other way, or when someone buys a Fun Pass and then doesn't take enough rides to make it worthwhile.
NYCT loses money on the Fun Pass when someone who would have ridden the system anyway gets unlimited rides for a low fixed price.
My guess is that the second category outnumbers the first.
For that matter, the second category doesn't outnumber the first on free intermodal transfers?
Weekly and monthly cards do
The average rider who buys a fun pass becasue already knows he is going to need to make more then 3 rides that day is already a rider who is not looking for another option. Therefor is taking fares out of the kiddie
Weekly and monthly pass holders who ride to work now may use mass transit for other things since the pass is free. Combine with transetcheck metrocard the proposition of buying monthly vs PR is even greater.
The new fare structure encourages riders to to use mass transit more
#3 West End Jeff
Therefore the fare must be rolled back to 5¢ immediately. Also, no hearings were held on the removal of the ticket choppers. The subway is dangerous without them.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes on two man crews, full length trains at all hours of the night, hundreds of unneeded token booths, outdated bus monitoring technology etc.
It's a crying shame that the riding public needs to pay for thierr failure to update thier technology to the 21th century
It is up to the govenor to force a more stremlined adminstrativre process.
In addition, the union, straphangers campaign or who ever else wants a say in any changes should dictate that a certain service improvements be tied to the effeceincy changes
It has been spun many ways, but my support of tooken booth closings is tied to concrete implimentation of increased security in the form of monitored cctv and increaed security patrols.
The recuction of two man crews to one should also include concrete plans of where the savings will be allocated
10% increased tph
a raise for remaining t/o
etc
One should not happenm without the other
That is what i mean when the current advocacy groups do not represent the true intersts of riders. They just oppose every move instead of trying to see how a move could bennifit both sides.
By the way, neither the Newsday article nor the Straphanger's article says anything about the tolls. Considering the MTA controls the TBTA now, if the fares get rolled back then the tolls should too. I think it is totally insane that one has to pay a $7 round trip for the privilege of driving from Queens to the Bronx. But then again, I guess the AAA ain't as powerful as the Staphangers.
TBTA Tolls still going up!!!!!!
It says so in the linked PDF file. Yes! This makes me a little happier. I hope you are too. I'm sure we can all think of 1000 reasons why this is good news.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm sure that legal consistency is not on the list.
Higher tolls are a bad deal for people traveling between Long Island and, say, New Jersey, who usually do not have any reasonable transit alternatives.
Of course it hasn't. Those high bridge tolls are covering much of the shortfall from the subway operations. I love that arrangement.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Their toll is going up 5000%!
75% of the people who use this bridge aare NY residents
The toll increase effects the price of all products trucked into the city thus hits each and every new yorker in the pocketbook
This notion that rasing the toll hurts the rich or out of staters is crazy.
It price of the toll is what's crazy. A $2 base fare is a bargin in comparison
Restore the "temporary" cuts in SI Ferry service that were made in the '70s (quickly, 'cause they want to make some more).
Run the S53 more often - every 40 minutes at night is kind of pathetic, since it is the ONLY NYCT-operated way of the Island 24/7 (the ferry isn't Transit and the S79 shuts down at night). Then, when I finally get to Brooklyn, all I can connect with is a SHUTTLE. Wonderful idea, mass transit.
So, I'll continue to drive for the pleasure of paying $4.00 to sit in traffic at 0430 on a six-lane (each way) bridge that only has one available lane on random midnights. Wednesday morning I was able to put my car in 'Park' due to the chaos caused by an unsigned one-lane-only.
Anyone want to bet how much they'll try to up the fare next year if this rollback sticks?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Who will perform the outside audit? Arthur Andersen? Next thing you know, Chinese battery sellers will be pitching portable shredders in the subway.
why fire the mta board. They did nothing wrong. they released all information REQUIRED BY LAW. Blame the reporting requirements.
A lower base fae means that more of the tranit fare is to be paid by those who use it most.
Remember that the metrocard discount was rasied to nearly 20% plus it kicks in at a lower dollar/ride point adressing and the monthly and weekly passes which are the best value for any commuter was not raised much at all.
You need to look behind he base fare number. The $2 bass fare is akin to a tourist surcharge. We should be happy for that.
The average ride paid by a commuter is sill $1.32. A rather fare deal
If they only raise the base fare to $1.75, the montly and weekly pass and discount given will decrease increasing the cost of goods sold by reducing the ammount of money each rider spends per transactiona at a tooken booth or MVM
Based on what?
Mark
and also factoring the average cost per ride of all those who use unlimited ride weekly and monthly cards
If a rider buys an unlimited ride mohtly metrocar and just uses it to go to and from owrk each week the average cost per ride is $1.75
Most montly and weekly metrocard uses tend to be the most heavy users of mass transit. If that rider just rides 4 extrea rides per week(two round trip) the average ride comes done to $1.25
Factor in weekly unlimited ride cards which cost a bit more and you arrive at the $1.32 estimated average cost per ride based on past usage
Under the old fare structure the average cost per ride was $1.06
The new fare structure rasies the base fare for mostly out of town riders and those who ride the subways and buse infrewurntly more then those who ride more often
My average cost per ride under the new fare structure before taking into account transitcheck discount is about a dollar. I make around 70 rides a month. Grant it if I did not have an unlimited ride card I would not make as many trips. The freedom of knowing it is not costing you more vs the cost of gas is a huge incentive.
Prior to unlimited ride montly passes I drove more and spent less on mass transit more on gad
Anyone in the transit check program pays about $50 a month for a thier monthy unlimited ride metrocard.
That works out to $1.26 a ride if the person only uses the card to go to and from work
$1.09 for a person who takes one extra round trip a week
and
$0.90 a ride for a person who commutes to work and takes two extra rount trips per week. Hardly expensive and still the best deal in town
The is two way to do this
For subscription transit check gold customers(yearly metrocards deducted from ones paycheck), subscription elderly and disabled customers could simply acces thier account online and check thier usage patterns and cost per ride calculator
For riders buy metrocards at MVM's or tooken booths they would simply need to create an anynomus account at MTA.info and enter the metrocard serial number for the cards they wish to track thier usage
All the infomation already existes in the MTA;s automated fare control detabase. It can be mines out rather easily. A simple datamining package such as business object, cognos or specially written SQL scripts can be used to accomplish this. I programed just such a similar system for a former employer.
The MTA must already be doing a breakout of cost per ride of each claee of metrocard already including cost per ride including free bus transfers etc. It is rather simplle with metrocard
Such as system will drive home the point that mass transit in NYC has bucked inflation and actually dropped in price despite the rasie in the base fare
The MTA tells the truth more than he does.
$1.67
If a rider buys an unlimited ride mohtly metrocar and just uses it to go to and from owrk each week the average cost per ride is $1.75
No, it's less than that. $1.63 over most 30-day periods assuming one round trip per weekday.
Most montly and weekly metrocard uses tend to be the most heavy users of mass transit. If that rider just rides 4 extrea rides per week(two round trip) the average ride comes done to $1.25
$1.17
Factor in weekly unlimited ride cards which cost a bit more and you arrive at the $1.32 estimated average cost per ride based on past usage
What? How are you "factoring in" these numbers, anyway?
Mark
Hw am I factoring. I am not, I am using the MTA's quoted estimate based on last years actual riding statistics adjusted for the new fare structure
The majority of Fun Pass users are out-of-towners?
Can I assume you have documentation to back up that claim? Because I doubt it.
Not every New Yorker commutes to work every day (if at all). For the rest of us, the Fun Pass was a very good -- and equitable -- way to run multiple errands.
The fare hike is a greater burden in absolute terms to those who ride three days per month on the Fun Pass than to those who ride 30 days per month on the 30-day unlimited.
Maybe people should do the 1966 and 1980 thing, walk to work and act like the entire transit system is on strike.
You should demand your money back.
The place for advocacy groups is to get issues they want see done taking care of in exchange for the fae increase
If you help to see something runs smoothly, thier is nothing to complain about when it fails
I pitched Gene my shorter trains more often preposal and asked what he was doing to improve the way OPTO is being implimented on the G
Nothing, because, such efforts eount lead to a photo opp
My view of the straphangrs campaign changed forever after our 30 min conversation
"From 1 AM Friday to 5 AM Monday, there is no J and M service at this station. Take an Uptown 4 or 5 train to Brooklyn Bridge-City-Hall for J and M connections.
There are THREE things wrong with this sign.
1. No service to Fulton or Broad Streets on Friday?
2. M trains start at Chambers street on weekends?
3. Following the directions of the sign from the downtown side, how will they say you must take the 4/5 train one stop Uptown then "double back" downtown on the Chambers St-bound J?
So the left wing radical organization group, the Suckhangers Campaign does not do anything to notify NYCT abouth this sign or other signs that are clearly wrong.
Nothing, because, such efforts eount lead to a photo opp
My view of the straphangrs campaign changed forever after our 30 min conversation <<<
Was the explanation of why the straphangers are doing nothing Gene's words, or your editorial spin?
Unless those were Gene's words, it appears that you believe the Straphangers are useless only because they do not agree with your views and priorities.
Tom
Anyone want to bet how much they'll try to up the fare next year if this rollback sticks?
I still think it will do more HARM than good if they went through with the rollback, the fare should of stayed constant (at $1.50) to begin with until it was shown that a fare hike was needed OR at least bring it up a quarter if it was that bad [RIGHT! ;-)].
The one I was thinking of was ALWAYS weird Al in MY book. Ya gotta deal with him in person to enjoy the full regalia. Heh.
http://www.inch.com/~era/2002_0420-0426.html Article title is "SEEKING INSIDE TRACE ON SUBWAY CONTRACT Firms' hired guns face $ 3B shootout - New York Daily News 04/22/2002" about 1/5 the way down the screen ...
http://www.inch.com/~era/2002_0518-0524.html and this one's entitled "On The Subway Deal Express Bids Are Still Out, But Transit Boss Was Kawasaki’s Guest New York Daily News 05/19/2002" and is similarly about 1/5 the way down the screen.
Wouldn't want to be accused of being "political" but it never ceases to amaze me how the same old, same old politicians are behind every woodpile when it comes to NYC TRANSIT. :(
Just wanted to add a comment - while the rest of us have to chow down begrudgingly on our FREEDOM FRIES, here's our "glad to be republicans" deliriously lining their pockets with FRENCH MONEY ... WORKING for those pesky "frogs" ... and somehow, it's OK ... you'd THINK with all the rhetoric about "screw France" the FIRST thing they would have done was ditch ALSTOM and hand the subway car contracts over to a Yankee doddle train builder. :(
But hey ... these ARE republican times ... do as I say, not as I do. And yes, the fix is still in ... sorry for going OFF-topic, but do read the previous in the thread and their links before smacking me upside the head. I'm *so* sick of HYPOCRACY (sic) ... what this deal cost would have ZEROED the state deficit right HERE ... :(
But AMERICAN jobs can go to hell ... after all, the French are supposedly our enemies! C'est LA GUERRE. :)
I go sleepies before I get even MORE pythed off ... but for all the NONSENSE back and forth here on subtalk about the damned fare and the strappies and all the rest, I sit in SHOCK AND AWE that nobody brought up anything that I just did. Geez. :(
Thanks for your patience with me, buddy! (and everyone else) ... I just can't BELIEVE that people are such knuckledraggers and are BUYING this qwap ...
Peace,
ANDEE
The site says BMT but doesn't say where.
I thought it was the Cypress Hills curve on the Jamaica line but the Cypress Hills curve is sharper than that.
Anyone know?
That looks like the 9th Av El curve at 110th St.
With the station position in the right background, I would suggest that it is not "Deadman's Curve" (also doesn't look quite high enough) which was at 9th and 110th, but that you are looking southwest at the curve at 8th and 110th, and that's 110th Street station.
There's nothing indicating that the shot was taken in Brooklyn.
DAMN! I just got a better look at the coaches and YES I can say with much certainty that it is a Manhattan Elevated scene. (Anyone who knows the subtle differences between BMT vs. IRT coaches will realize the shot is of IRT equipment).
Also, afaik, the third track never turned onto Jamaica Avenue. I think BMT man is on the right track, it doesn't look like any current line, so it may be the IRT in Manhattan.
Arti
Don't give me HOLDING LIGHTS to that.
(Don't hold me to that).
Mark
John
Thanks John,
I'll keep a look-out for more
Mark
If it was one already in service, it would have been medium grey (silver) with red and dark grey trim.
Then, this morning, on a train going towards Grosvenor, we are between Friendship Heights and Bethesda when I see a different operator than the one from yesterday doing some sort of paperwork. As we arrive at Bethesda, he realizes he needs to announce the station and does so hastily: "This is Brookland, doors open left side." Almost the same mistake made for the same station by different operators.
Once, I had an operator say "Next station, Takoma" as we were leaving Friendship Heights on a train to Wheaton (this was before Glenmont opened) but she did correct herself.
For those of you who don't know, Brookland and Takoma are above ground stations in Northeast DC. Tenleytown is in Northwest DC, Bethesda is in Maryland, both are fairly deep underground. The area around the stations surrounding them is not comprable. In other words, the operator must be very out of it to make such a mistake.
Reminds of the time I took Amtrak back from Pittsburgh to Washington. At Rockville, the stop right before Washington, he conductor said on the radio "OK. #30. Let's leave Cumberland." The engineer replied "OK. Leaving Cumberland for the second time."
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
Mark
He probably says he lives in "Warshington" and loves the "peetzer" here.
Which is how my brother-in-law (born and raised in Baltimore, graduate of 16 years of Catholic education) says it. Nobody else in the family does.
On topic rail content: On the 8 line in Baltimore, there was a walking transfer point east and west bound, to the 3 bus on Wilkins Avenue. one block south of Frederick Road. The street is Catherine Street, which in Baltimorese is pronounced Cath-er-een Street. The stop is called as "Cath-er-een Street, walking transfer to the 3 on Wilkins Avenue."
Two blocks further east.
Frederick & Catherine is right after the Gwynns Falls Bridge.
Westside is at the bottom of the next hill.
1 more block to the Pratt/Frederick intersection.
John
I hope you ride the (2) or (3) between 96th St and 42nd St (or the reverse) because that speed run always cheers me up after a long, hard day at work. Today my (3) was zooming along at what seemed like unbelievable speeds. Always when I'm NOT at the RFW to look at the speedometer. Sigh.
Lot's of people have a one track mentality.The most common example is with the express train's.Everyone think's they'll save a huge amount of time if they took the express which is way beyond false.The other type of mentality is that they think that buses and train's can come at any time,like every 30 seconds or whatever and when I've heard them complain,they've sounded like a bus or train can run without anyone there to operate it.
And let me remind you about something else,there are over 300 Traffic Checker's,me being one of them,and it is all the data that we collect that the TA look's at to decide what kind of service should run on every single bus route and train line in the city so it's not their fault at all.So.....I know we all got freedom of speech and all that but please,don't say something like that which is false beyond belief and alway's take into consideration the several different reason's for delay's in bus and train service.I know I have and I never get pissed off about it anymore.We all just have to deal with it.
300 trafic checkers *$20k a year is $6 million dolars a year for a dinsaur system that is not very effective and prone to fraud
Most likely traffic checxkers make more then that
What a huge waiste of money and highly ineffecient and not very effective system
On the B3 bus drivers hide on stop away from the dispatcher to avoid being conted as early causing bus riders to miss thier transfer at nostrand ave. An basic autoamted tracking system would eliminated that.
Train traffic could be tracked at each and every station and select points in between by simple transponders that transmit line id, run number etc. this info would be stored in a database that give enough info to develope an accurate train on time statistic. A snapshot in time of one or two days is not suffice
In addtion the system would give dispatchers a real time view of where each and every train is allowing for compex what if senarios if a local is put express or skip a stop to make up time
On the bus side this could be done ustilizing GPS based system with wayside 802.11b transponders that nt only track the bus time at a place in time but allow dispatcher to move a bus up or down in the lineup to keep the bus line on time
In manhattan the MTA could use verizon 802.11b transpponders located onthier phone booths
Hold back on the swearing OK, its not good to do that ;-). Now back on topic, I've heard quite a few posters say that 2 service in the morning is pure crap; including TheGreatOne2k2. The MTA is a corrupted agency with greedy executives making money off of US riders.
i think pataki does a good enough job making himself bad on his own.
Is there a time limit? Normally, if there's a problem with an unlimited, the card must be postmarked by the following day. But this was a prescheduled problem, so does that rule apply?
Can I send all the cards in a single envelope or do I need to send each one separately?
Do I need to fill out the form in full? Aside from my name and address, do I need to fill out the form at all? Everything else is encoded on the MetroCards themselves.
Nowhere on the form am I asked how I want to be reimbursed (new unlimiteds, new PPR, etc.). Do I just jot down my preference on the back?
I may be in downtown Brooklyn tomorrow. Can I just drop off the envelope(s) in person?
Why don't the booths have envelopes and forms specifically for this purpose?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You and the rest of us 2398984284934832 New Yorkers.
Wonder if 718-330-1234 would answer this Q.
--Mark
The ENTIRE CITY is in financial shambles and you're worried about $12.14 ??
Are you STRAPPED for Cash or something, G'berger??
Eesh.. F my comparison but you remind me a hella lot of a certain friend of mine.... stingy cheap!
(Not sayin' you are so, brah!!)
Me, too... I'm waiting out on my $10 Blank MC from last week... but ya
don't see me crying foul over the dough...
Yao. maybe yer post gave off the wrong impression....
2) I'd guess you could put up to 5 cards into each envelope.
3) I'd put down on the form that you want a refund. Otherwise I don't think they would know what you want with the cards.
4) Just write on the form what you want.
5) You could go down to Jay Street and drop it off in person. ButI doubt if you'll walk out with a refund or a replacement. If you can't get an instant refund with tokens, I doubt if you'll get one with a metrocard.
6) The forms inside the envelopes should be enough to indicate exactly what you want. You just have to write down exactly what you want.
Thanks for the advice.
2) I don't think you could put alot of cards in an envelope. 5 sounds like a fair number of cards you can turn in at one time. If you have more than 5 cards, get another envelope. Either at the same booth or at another booth.
3) If there is a problem with the card you should note where you bought it. Otherwise you're just asking for a refund.
4) You're welcome.
5&6) Just put down what you want done with the cards. Problem to be resolved? Refund for unused time? Whatever. Otherwise they might think someone is sending Jay St their discarded cards. It might be a person's protest. But you're looking for a refund.
Cards that were never started can be sent in at any time, but the folks at 370 Jay are recommending that they not be sent in for the time being, given yesterday's court ruling. (The woman I spoke to seemed to think the decision wouldn't be reversed.)
Any number of cards per envelope.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
When passing those layup tracks near Flushing, I spotted a train of R-62A's that had #2079 as the north motor. I'm pretty sure that is an R-62A single. I read over at Strappies yesterday there was a trainset with the sigles at the north end. I didn't believe it, and quickly came back to this board :)
Upon arrival at Flushing, I crossed over to the other platform and board south motor #9451. This car didn't seem to have a speedometer visible. So I fired up the SporTrak Map GPS receiver and watched this 7-Express hit a top speed of 42.6 MPH. Not terribly exciting unto itself, but it was a great ride! The sun was shining and the skies clear. We arrived back at Times Square at approx 8:10am.
So I completed a morning round trip to Flushing and back exclusivly making use of Redbirds. Sadly, I may never again be able to make that claim.
Other notes: I saw some redbirds with north destination signs reading Willets-Point, Shea Stadium and 111 St. What's up with that? Maybe it's normal but I'm not a regular #7 AM rider. This was my first time. Thanks for reading....
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
www.railfanwindow.com
During the rush, locals are put-in at 111 and taken out at Willets Point. At the end of the PM rush, the bottleneck at Willets as every other local reverses, every OTHER local goes in front of the express, and the express has to sit on the flyover at 111, is quite a sight to see. Check the #7 schedule-it shows these.
Willets Point though I have no idea why they'd have those signs. No AM trains that I can remember lay up from there.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Actually, express service resumed in August 1989, a mere 51 months later! When it did, Woodside was a local-only stop. But pressure from angry Woodside commuters, and people who had to ride all the way from QP to Junction if they mistakenly boarded an express made that a short-lived arrangement.
Then a few years later, it was discovered that the concrete viaduct along Queens Boulevard wasn't repaired correctly, so all trains ran local out to Woodside. That only lasted a few months.
The only advantage to all-local Flushing service was that if you were boarding an outbound train west of the Plaza during the PM rush, there was no confusion as to whether it was local or express. You just boarded the first train that came.
Of course, with the loss of the third track, any equipment failure led to horrible delays.
"Entitled" is subjective. Whether a refund would actually be issued is even more questionable.
restoring token sales
No, no more tokens.
Mark
I did a search in the file for the word "token" and it came up blank.
Therefore I suspect the judge did NOT mandate a return of tokens.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Good point. I used the Edit, Search function. So of course no words would come up, even if they were in the document.
Will the Express fare be rolled back .... NOPE
Alternative 1: LIRR, peak round trip now $17.50. May not even get a seat for that price.
Alternative 2: Drive to Manhattan. Probably $4-$5 gasoline plus $20-$30 to park and perhaps $7 in tolls unless I go out of the way to use a free bridge. Lots of potholes, horn-honking, and stop-and-go traffic. Valets tend to be reckless showoffs. (I hate valet parking.)
Alternative 3: Cab. Never tried it but it must cost lots more than $4 round trip from here.
Alternative 4: Car pool. Great if you have friends going to the same place but not possible for many folks for various reasons.
So I see the subway as a real bargain. For that matter, I can go all the way to the Bronx for the same $4. I just can't understand how anyone can complain about it being too expensive. It is, in fact, the cheapest alternative. Further, I know that lots of people in NYC don't even need cars because of the subway system. That saves them a bunch of money on car maintenance and insurance-- another thing to consider.
I know that the numbers may not be as stark for those taking local trips or trips outside Manhattan, but I just can't see how anyone can see subway fare as anything less than a huge bargain.
However, the LIRR/bus combo takes 45 minutes, total. Taking the bus/subway will require 1 hour, 45 minutes. That's if every one of my bus and four subway connections is PERFECT. Going westward from Queens Village, the trip is as follows:
Q-110 to Parsons/Archer
J/Z to B'way Junction
C to Franklin Avenue
Franklin Shuttle to Botanic Garden
2/5 to Church Ave.
I don't take the A to Nostrand then the B44 (the more obvious route) because that's another $2.
What I'm getting at, is the bus/subway combo is built around the boroughs to Manhattan travel pattern. Going from one outer borough to another without a car in a reasonable time, ain't so easy.
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
I think the reason why 11th & 12th Aves do not have subway service is that there wasn't historically a large residential population along those avenues. At the time most of the subway was built, this was a manufacturing and shipping corridor.
The original plan for the north side tracks was to run across Canal (I don't know how far, but they weren't going to connect to the High Line). Stand at the rear end of the SB platform and look back. Broadway expresses, according to this plan, would continue south to City Hall lower level and on to Cortlandt; locals would terminate at the upper level island platform at City Hall.
http://www.anywho.com, use the "reverse lookup" feature on the phone number he posted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
Please Eamil me at Smugglerbuddy@aol.com
2 Webmasters can nycsubway.org use your LIRR pics for its LIRR section?
Please Eamil me at Smugglerbuddy@aol.com
E-mail me if you want their exact location and/or pictures
Mark
---Chapter 11 Choo choo
I recall Rudy was quick to have it whisked away to a undisclosed
site.... and the Cash Vault was NEVER seen nor heard of again.
City need Cash?
Where Rudy's Cash Bunker at??
Keeping cash in a vault is pretty stupid anyway.
The vault was under WTC 6 and contained gold owned by a number of banks. I believe the Bank of Nova Scotia had the largest share. The vault survived the attacks reasonably well and workers removed the gold some weeks later.
..... to where?
Was it a legit NYC possession or did the Bank of NS take claim to it?
So get soem more photos of the old riders, it looks like they are being replased with newer ones.
Robert
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Let's not forget rainy weather !
Bill "Newkirk"
The 12s, 14s, and 15s, look pretty worn.
-Stef
Good luck!
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
That idea is ... priceless :)
Average LIRR monthly commuter rail ticket: $240
30 Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $70
Knowing that the MTA has ripped you off in this fare hike: PRICELESS
Metrocard 1-Day Pass: $7
30 Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $70
Knowing that the MTA cooks books with appeal: PRICELESS
It is part of mastercards camapaign to premote new ways for cardholders to use mastercard and to change habits
Charging transit fare anf buying movie tickets are two relativly new places to use mastercard
mastercard and visa make thier money on transaction fees it charges merchants. The banks who issue the cards lend the money and take most of the interest proceeds
If you look at the link, under the metrocard logo it says "leave your car at home and take the mta to the movies"
Such promotionsa are called co-op marketing programs which is paid for by mastervard and other sponsorts designed to change peoples habits about using thier mastercard benaded credit card ot debit card
Mastervard makes 2.5-6.5 cents per tranaction, The individul banks who issue the credit cards keep the interest if one does not pay
It's smart marketing. Any business or organization looking for customers wants to hook up with credit cards. Master Card and VISA offer promotion and advertising that MTA doesn't have to develop on its own; the credit card issuers get access to millions of commuters and a chance to earn that 2% transaction fee in a very high volume transaction stream (more like taking your cut out of a fire hose). And MTA gets more stable revenue. The customer (the rider) gets MetroCard purchases listed on a monthly statement, which is great for budgeting and tax return purposes.
The next logical step is a subscription (something I wrote to them about, actually). That's where the MetroCard loks like EZ-Pass. When you use it up, your Master Card is automatically charged for another one and MTA mails it to you or you pick it up from your closest vending machione, which already knows you paid for it (just like prepaid airline or Amtrak tickets).
You like to rail at MTA's incompetence, but they are being very competent here, and providing great opportunities for customer convenience to boot.
I apologize on this board for such a mistake about assuming the MTA is wrong. At least when I am in the wrong, I own up to it.
A major cost savings for the MTA plus mastercard flips the bill for the premotion
also it encourages movie goes who use loews website to take public transit
The more people buy with mastercard the more mastercard makes
The more trhe MTA saves on staion agents
the fewer maintance calls to mvm's to add more change or empty bill holders
As for the subscription metrocards. It is time they introduce them to the general public. They already have them set up for auot refiling via checking or credit card account for seniors and the disabled. One caveat is that if you subscribe tot he service you can not add money at a MVM or booth
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Of which, I LOVE to see the unsuspecting looks on merchants'
faces when I hand them my MLB MASTERCARD.... METS, of course!!
I wanna win a roll sign or a rare collectible Metrocard ! Then I'm interested.
Bill "Newkirk"
What good is it?
"Taxes are the sole responsibility of the winner."
Enough said!
The tax laws associated with this type of winnings are fundamentally unchanged.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The next time you want to use govenment agancies as job mills(ex: not closing tooken boothss, keeping two man crews) you will know why the educated middle class is discusted with the blantant job protectionism that the TWU is trying to orcostrate
If we did not waste so much money on unneeded items, taxes would not be so high
Single cash fare: $2
Enjoying a ride on a Redbird: priceless
I thought there would be a connection to Second Avenue from the 63rd street line. I know there is provision for such a connection in the tunnel.
There are two proposed connections between Second Avenue and the 63rd Street line.
One connection is between the northern part of Second Avenue and 63rd Street. The current SAS plan has service operating over this connection to route trains between the Upper East Side and the Broadway BMT line.
The other connection is between the southern part of Second Avenue and Queens. This connection was added to the plan after concerns that Queens would not benefit from the project were raised. However, although the plan includes a connection, it does not propose any regular service be operated over a Second Avenue-Queens route.
Mark
This is not my understanding. A connection from Queens Blvd to the southbound SAS has been part of the design for decades. When the 63rd St tunnel was built, bellmouths were included for such a connection. At the time, there were also plans to build a QB "super express," which was never done. Without it, QB is saturated, and no service could be routed onto 2nd Ave without taking away from some other route.
Some people think that the V should go to 2nd Ave, but the V is rumored to be the future Culver Express. Anyhow, it'll be at least a decade before any QB trains could be routed down 2nd Ave.
If it ever comes into existence :0). All jokes aside though, the V should NOT run via 2 Av it should stay on 6 Av and run with the F into Brooklyn whenever it is possible to do so.
That would permit use of the excess 63rd St. tunnel capacity without having to share any trackage with the Queens Blvd. lines. But given the costs and the timetable for the SAS as it is, I wouldn't count on any add-ons that cost a whole lot of money (and even the LGA extension off the N/W terminal seems to have been put on hold for now).
Hey, look at that -- that's exactly what the V does now!
Right now, the plans are for a non-revenue connection.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
This may destroy your happiness at 42/6 going sb, but I still feel they should combine the M with the V. At least then the V would be going somewhere both southbound and northbound.
Funny you should mention that, because the first time I saw a V train was back in '95 (I think) around the time of the Willy-B accident. The train was an R-42 consist, sitting in Fresh Pond Yard, signed as an orange (V). This was in the days when I was always trying to figure out the mysteries of the subway (before I found this site) and this became one of them: what on earth is a (V) train? I had imagined some kind of Queensbridge-6th Avenue Super Express that went down the M line up to Metropolitan Ave. (Ironically, I didn't even know about the Chrystie St Connection at the time, I just guessed there was some kind of connection somewhere, and I had no idea there was supposed to be a Queens super-express line either.)
Seriously, though, they should send the M uptown instead of downtown; it would be used alot more. The change from J to the Q at Canal is far more convenient than the M to Downtown Brooklyn. It would also be a better terminus for the "V" train than 2nd Ave. The only issue would be running 480' trains on Queens Blvd which is a no-no. They would have to run 600' R-32/A consists and close the last 2 cars at Bway-Lafyette. In the event of poor announcements or pax not paying attention, the train could be held at Essex while the J passes on the middle track, so people can move forward. However I don't know if there may be some rule against the C/R being at the 8/9 car cab, so that may not be possible, and plus Metro Ave may not be long enough to hold a 600' train (maybe send the J up the V and the M down the J instead? I'm sure Archer can hold a 600' train).
This is a non-issue. The V has few enough passengers so that 480 foot cars are sufficient.
No. The ridership on the V exceeds that on the M and they're travelling in opposite directions (they won't be on the trains at the same time). In addition, the V runs more TPH than the J,M and Z combined.
The V runs 18 TPH?
Well in that case I must have confused it with the V simply has more TPH then the M or J/Z and that the V can fit over the Williamsburg Bridge without the need to diminish J, M or Z service.
Talk about sideswipe ;-)
I doubt that consist would clear the switches at Metropolitan Avenue.
Look at it like this:
When 2nd av is complete, it won't really add ridership to QB, right? So then anyone wanting to come from QB onto 2nd av would be doing so from existing trains. Split the QB express 3 ways instead of 2.
That sounds easy; in practice, it's really not. The two QB expresses, the E and F trains, are among the most packed routes in the system. If those trains were split 3 ways, then there would be 33% fewer trains for E/F riders to reach 6th/8th Avenues. 2nd Ave is pretty far away from 6th/8th, so it's not really an acceptable substitute. The E is the only QB train that goes to 8th Ave, which is a LONG distance from 2nd. The F continues to Brooklyn, so therefore there'd also be a service reduction along the Culver line.
Hence, without building more capacity along QB, it is not possible to send any QB trains to 2nd Ave without canibalizing service elsewhere. While most people agree that the SAS is needed, I doubt there'd be many who advocate reducing service elsewhere to provide it.
It's far enough in the future (at least 10-12 years) that anything could happen, but the current betting is that the V will become the Culver Express, in which case it won't run on 2nd Ave. Making the V a Culver Express will turn it into a very useful route. If the Culver Express doesn't happen for some reason, then I agree 2nd Ave would be a good home for the V.
I also see the Q trains running north from 57/7. Making a stop at 63/Lexington and running north to 125 St or wherever the north terminal is.
No great foresight required for that, since it's precisely what the current design proposal on the MTA website says.
If the SAS is connected to the Manhattan Bridge I see the W trains running north to 125 St.
There is no proposal—and AFAIK, has never been—to connect the SAS to the Manhattan Bridge.
That's what the map says, but no actual track connection is included in the proposed design. In fact, because the cross-platform transfer at Grand St has been dropped, I don't think it will even be physically possible.
(That's what the map says, but no actual track connection is included in the proposed design. In fact, because the cross-platform
transfer at Grand St has been dropped, I don't think it will even be physically possible.)
That's a loss, G.O. wise.
Looks like the SAS is connecting with the D line.
Or at least transfering to it at Grand Street.
It's a pedestrian transfer, not a track connection.
The "V" should become the Culver local and terminate at Church. The F is the extended train.
The report in a couple of papers was that the V would be the Culver express, and it makes sense. Undoubtedly the express wouldn't run 24/7, and the V is already a part-time train in Queens and Manhattan. That way, anyone who took an F in Brooklyn would always know they were getting a local. It's a lot simpler than a pattern where a route's behavior changes with the time of day (although there are many of those already). Also, it would entail no change to the F, just the addition of a new service.
> a much more confusing pattern whereby sometimes the F ends at Church, and other times at Coney Island.
Again, if the above is true, you can't turn 2 locals at Church. One of the locals must go on far south.
BTW, if it's doable I don't think it's too confusing. The B, J, M among others, have shorter runs depending on the time of the day or day of the week. And Brighton had even more complicated operations. The D used to turn at Brighton Beach when running express and at Stillwell when running local off-peak. Then the Q became the express while the D became permanent local to CI making it much less complicated. The current Q/Q situation should be over when the bridge reopens and it will be Q local, B express.
SubTalk has gone over that before. The report was complete fiction, planted by somebody for some reason other than reporting news.
Many E and V riders get off at 53rd and Lex, either to work locations nearby or to switch to the Lex. Those riders would be happy to take a 2nd Ave train.
Instead of 10 Vs, 15 Fs, and 15 Es, you could have 6 Vs, 12 Fs, 12 Es, 6 2 Ave QB expresses, and 6 2 Av QB locals.
Besides, by 2015, QB will have CBTC and will handle 36-40 tph on each track.
Ok and then you'll have to reduce E and F service to make this possible, which means E's and F's returns to dangerously crowded levels [over 100% capacity] not good. However if the never built express track were constructed then that's a different story then you could squeeze 3 express lines on QB.
Well, DUH! It ain't the Steinway Street Subway. It's the 2nd Avenue Subway!
Having lived in both in Queens, using the Queens Blvd. IND, and on the Upper East Side, using the Lex IRT, I gotta tell ya: The 2nd Av. subway is needed more. Besides, Queens already got their new subway: the 63rd Street Connector.
But the best we can hope for is that the MTA will have to give more accurate assessments, or at least reveal all the sources of their assumptions in the future.
A major problem is that neither the suit nor the ruling says that the overall numbers are wrong--just that the same numbers were selectively assigned in such a way as to produce a political effect to get the result the MTA wanted.
What we then face, if the overall number is accurate, is that the MTA will come back in 2004 and hit us with a bigger and less attractive increase--i.e., suppose they go across the board, and we get a $1.75 fare, but a $90 monthly MC (for example)?
If the MTA loses their appeal, they have to spend big bucks to roll back the fare as they stated. Now aside from blaming them for no disclosure and cheating the public, where is this fare roll back money going to come from ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree. The Strappies need to be put in their place. No one elected them to represent anyone. Hopefully a successful appeal will end this insanity and the TA can get back to business.
A few days ago David Davies (no, I am not making this name up) was out railfanning CSX's RFP Sub when a passing train let loose a blast of hot carbon from its stack and set the surrounding brush on fire. Mr. Davies spotted the fire and quickly went to a nearby residence and called CSX and the fire department. Traffic was halted while the fire was put out.
Just another example of how railfans are out there every day keeping the system safe from equipment defects, vandals, fires and terrorism.
Of course not! We all know Dave Davies is the guitarist for the Kinks.
Was wondering if it was like an indie band or old. Some indie bands put out some great songs so I'm always interested when I hear of a new one.
But I know nothing of old bands, so I can never tell if a band is indie or old by the name.
One of the songs on their 1968 album "The Village Green Preservation Society" was called "Last of the Steam Powered Trains."
Whew, there's our mandatory train content. I was beginning to worry that David was involved in an off topic thread. :-)
Who??? The Kinks??? :-)
Tom
Simon
Swindon UK
--Mark
I don't know the area, but I wouldn't call a brush fire in itself minor. It was minor in this case, but quite a few of the recent forest fires started out as 'minor' brush fires. Had it been an area with a lot of brush and other types of fuel, it could have gotten 'major' and cost CSX money in equipment damages (rails, etc) as well as endangered surrounding homes.
B- Weekdays: West End, 4th Ave Express, bypass Dekalb, 6th Ave Express, CPW local to 145 (middays) or BPB (rush hours), all service to/from 145th st until 11 PM
Nights: same as above, but West End/4th Ave local, stopping at Dekalb and extended to 205th st when D is not running
Weekends: Same as night service, but West End Local/4th Ave Express, Dekalb bypass, 6th Ave express, CPW and Concourse local to 205th
D-Weekdays, and evenings to 11:30 PM: Brighton Express, 6th Ave Express, CPW Express, Concourse Local, all service to 205th st (the B goes to 205 when D is not running.) No service nights and weekends, use B for Bronx and Q for Brooklyn service.
N-All times, 57/7 to 86th st (Stillwell in May, 2004), same service patterns as original MTA proposal. Shuttle service nights in Brooklyn, use B for 4th Ave local service and Q for Montague service. The Q now goes to Astoria at all times (historical again)
Q-Extended to Astoria 24/7, express in Manhattan (Canal-42nd st) all times, Q goes via bridge when N is running, via. tunnel late nights, and local Canal-57 on weekends (still via. Bridge)
M, R and W proposals remain unchanged.
Comments?
Railfans they are not. They will base their decisions based on what they think (not what we think)is the best service for the rider.
Go ahead and speak your mind but IMHO you are wasting your breath.
And besides that, the assignment of letters to routes has changed many times over the years. Just look at the summary on the FAQ at nycsubway.org. When people refer to the historical associations, they are merely referring to whatever service pattern they happen to have grown up with, even if some other pattern predated it.
As for the B and D part: Why not state it more simply? D stays on Brighton, running rush, days, and evenings, 205th to Brighton Beach. B stays on West End and runs 24/7: to Bedford Park (rush), to 145th (days, evenings), and to 205th (nights, weekends).
I'm glad that you'll be attending. Go with a simple, clear-cut modification, bolstered by visual aids if possible. Good luck!
Plus, your plan actually changes history anyway. You're taking a line that has not been associated with Concourse in all of its existence (the B) up until 1998 and you are now making that the night service over the D which has been there all of its life. Either way, strict history can't rule the system. Otherwise the format of the routing patterns would be ridiculous.
I can imagine standing at Dekalb Av. on a weekend, with 3 4th Av. services coming in, waiting until a Brighton train finally comes in.....
MTA....going the other way.... :-)
Because of the way the lines were built in the 19th century. A lot of the subway system is based on opportunistic use of previously built rail lines.
If they hadn't been "free" in the sense of the rail and ROW already being there, there would be no subway service at all on the Dyre, the Sea Beach, and either Rockaway line. All 4 of these lines get service disproportionate to their population because they could be opportunistically incorporated into the system. Do you propose that they should all be shut down? If not, well then as long as they exist, they are going to get "unfairly" high levels of service.
As for my modification, I'd run the Sea Beach through the tunnel nights and weekends. I would provide 12 tph the full length of the BMT Broadway line, and provide balanced loading on the Manny B with one service on each side.
Hope the engineers who say balanced loading is bunk, and Sea Beach Fred, don't see this and flame me again.
Even 10 Brighton trains and 18 4th Ave trains would give 4th Ave an "unfair" amount of extra service. But that's life.
As for my modification, I'd run the Sea Beach through the tunnel nights and weekends. I would provide 12 tph the full length of the BMT Broadway line, and provide balanced loading on the Manny B with one service on each side.
Hope the engineers who say balanced loading is bunk, and Sea Beach Fred, don't see this and flame me again.
Responding to a posting by someone who does think balanced loading is bunk is not the best way to keep a low profile. But I don't have anything new to say on the subject, so I'll keep quiet.
The Brighton line needs 2 lines on Saturday, not really needed on Sunday. And what's gonna happen when the new Coney Island opens for business next summer?
And how many people listen to Mr. Greenberger if there is only a 8 minute difference between taking a Bridge train (pre 4/27/03)) over a tunnel train. As if you can get a seat on a "climate-controlled" tunnel train.
Basically your making the current B proposal except it is the D, now the D has been the full time line to Concourse its entire life and then 6 Av & Concourse riders loses the CPW express on weekends [although it will help C service], with the MTA's plan at least the D will be express in Manhatan north of 59 St. I'm mixed on this one; of course I'd like the pre 7/01 pattern to return :-) but its not my choice to do so.
Dave can update his page as needed.
Deliveries:
1156-1160 (April 16), 1161-1165 (April 19), 1166-1170 (April 22), 1176-1180 (April 24), 1171-1175 (April 26) 6891-6895 (April 29), 6921-25 (May 12)
As of 05/13:
1156-60, 1186-90 Doing Initial Burn Testing
1166-70 Burn Testing Dyre Av Test Track
1171-80 Burn Testing for 4 Service
6876-85 to enter service on the 5, on or about 05/14/03
1141-45, 1151-55 enter service on the 4 as Trainset #10
As 6876-85 enter service on the 5, 7121-30 will be transferred to the 4 effective immeediately, which would make them Trainset #11.
As of last night, they were still at Unionport Yard awaiting transfer.
That's all for now!
-Stef
Congrats to all.
So after this, I'm guessing the next order will be for the replacement of the R62/A, which should be done for in the next 15 or 20 so years. Hmm, I wonder how they'll be?
http://www.mta.info/mta/communications/hearing-0612.htm
Unfortunately, it's wrong. It says: "Q service would be replaced by B in Brooklyn and N in Manhattan." The actual proposal, I believe, is supposed to say that the Q will be the Brighton local. The statement on the website must be incorrect, because no other train is described as being the Brighton local. The B is described as being the Brighton express, operating weekdays from 6am to 11pm.
MTA screws up again.
What? Doesn't this make the , the only Fourth Ave. local during the day? Wow... Talk about service cuts.
With the N going back to bridge, W terminating at Whitehall, M at Chambers, travelling from lower Manhattan to 4th Ave. stations could take longer than one wishes. I remember the short period when both sides of the Manny Brdige were open, the R was the only local on BMT Broadway line in Manhattan. Boy, that sucked! to say the least. I used to say that N/R stands for "Not Running" or Never/Rare. Just don't get me started about what the F stood for!:-)
When the bridge reopened, somebody conveniently forgot to restore midday M service to 9th Avenue. The current restoration of service is explicitly temporary.
I agree, it makes travel to 4th Avenue local stations quite onerous.
It isn't just 4th Avenue local that is affected. Lawrence and Court Street also face a service cut, as well as Brooklyn service to Lower Manhattan. Isn't the City trying to promote Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan? I can think of a couple of BIDs (the Downtown Alliance and the Metrotech BID) that have an interest in increased midday R service.
While it's unfortunate that 4th Ave local stations will see a cut in service, can they really complain as long as they get 8 minute headways middays? There are many quite busy stations in the city (including 5 stations on the F and 2 on the E in Manhattan) that only get 8 minute headways midday. And on weekends there are 3 more F and E stations in Manhattan with 8 minute headways.
I don't think it coincided with the other 1995 service cuts (Dean Street closure, late night 3 shuttle train elimination, etc.).
[...]
service would be replaced by in Brooklyn and in Manhattan.
I see nothing wrong here. There's no mention of the circle-Q because the proposal keeps it the same, so it doesn't belong under the "Proposed Subway Changes" heading.
I think this project is pretty significant, IMO. Manhattan has Times Square, Brooklyn has Stillwell Avenue and we in Queens have this.
Not only are they PROVEN GUILTY (by Hevesi's investigation)
but they STILL seek public sympathy and consideration?
Didn't one of the topdog execs drive around in THREE SUV-Hummers or somethin???
Maybe the SUV they were driving has Firestone tires that can blow out in an instant. Then these jerks can ACTUALLY ride the subway for the first time in decades.
No, that was the former head of the TWU.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did he happen to take his city-paid SUV schlop WITH him??
The current head has a $50k chevy SUV plus a driver
YOUR UNION DOLLARS AT WORK!!!!!
I guess he fooled you because it is my guess that you never read the actuall audit or the mta's responce to the audit.
No, that's not true. Hevesi's "audit" was a politially motivated action which proves absolutley nothing. I'm amazed that so many people reguard this "audit" as an honest assesment.
Alan Hevesi is a Democratic hack. Nothing he says can be taken at face value.
David
thier was no criminal activity in the whole fare raise issue. In fact the appeal will show that they follwed all requirements. These lower court judges depend on the democratic machine to get re-elected
The MTA had very good reasons to move the money to out years in the budget: they have been starved for capital and operating funds since the 1990s by Giuliani and Pataki. MTA passengers pay a higher percentage of operating costs that just anout every transit system in the US, and a lot of this is debt service.
What the MTA did wrong is not come clean about this all along. Why? Because their master would have looked bad.
Now, it is in the hands of the Appellate Division. I don't expect the ruling to hold in the long-run, politics being what it is, but it is a victory to have gotten this far. Heads will roll, and the truth will be told.
In Maryland, we got rid of Parris Gendenning, a first class sleeze if there ever was one. Since he served two consecutive terms as gov, so no third. When I say sleeze, I mean sleeze. Political and personal.
E-mail me if you want a more detailed report, esp. personal.
And BSM has Parris' sworn enemy, Comptroller (and former Governor) William Donald Schaefer on our Board.
Chapter 1
It's Better to Look Good Doing Nothing Than To Look Bad Doing Something
Guide For Those Seeking Or Holding Statewide Office, Northeastern Industrial States, New York State Gubernatorial:
Memorize and regurgitate this nifty phrase, which should be very easy, since they it is only 3 words: "Job Killing Taxes." Offer no solutions to economic crisis. Stand for nothing. Take no position on MTA fare issue, an agency which you control. In fact, appear in public and/or speak as little as possible, unless there is an attack on New York City, in which case be sure to insert yourself into every photo possible and in front of every microphone you see. Participate in sham debate. Speak words, but say nothing. After all, you harbor national political ambitions, don't you? Stand up to your "spendthrift" legislature, including those in your own party. Even if they override your veto, you look like a hero to the NeoCon(Artist)s controlling the national party.
Guide For Those Seeking Or Holding National Office:
Memorize and regurgitate these nifty phrases, which should be very easy, since they are usually no more than 3 words each: "Compassionate Conservative," "Reformer With Results," "I'm a Uniter, not a Divider." Talk a lot about, but do not present solutions for, issues important to "working people, seniors, immigrants and the white middle class." Insist you will ease their pain, but for God's sake don't mention anything specific for which you might be held accountable later. Work the word "God" or "Christian" into rehetoric at every opportunity. Buy a ranch and a pair of boots, speak with a friendly drawl, and make a cute sign reading "Western White House" to show on TV when you are spoon-feeding the press there. Say the rules apply to everyone, exept when you or your supporters break the rules, in which case insist that those were bad rules in need of breaking anyway. If given a choice between a) the difficult task of actually finding creative and effectual ways of countering the threat of terrorism and bringing terrorists to justice or b) looking like you are fighting terrorism in TV's greatest reality shows, "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "Presidential Fighter Pilot," choose 'b'. Remember, most Americans, like yourself, do not have the inclination or experience to see any issue in terms other than black-and-white. But you can help! Make some spiffy color-coded Terror Alert warning charts. They're much less expensive and distasteful than reforming international policy.
Have 1,000,000 times more money than the average working class Joe or Jane. Be a non-smoker and find any way possible for people to quit smoking. Encourage those who do smoke to use the 'net or buy untaxed cigs off the street, and make them pay if they buy smokes at a store. Tell the riding public to go buy a bike next time there is a transit strike threat. Don't tell the entire public where you will be going on weekend jaunts in case you decide not to come back. Call you mother often and ask her how is the NYPD detail treating her. Purchase a chainsaw and use it on the entire Budget office. When passing by any firehouse, put that firehouse you saw on the chopping block, or use that chainsaw, you bought for the budget office, on the fireshouse. Tell New Yorkers that 3-1-1 does not rhyme in a rap song with "9-1-1, I saw a Drive-By". Ignore the press and the polls when your popularity is now at the Fresh Kills Landfill. Tell property owners to GO TO HELL, and give them a list of moving companies upon request. If property owners refuse to pay the new higher property taxes, sic. them with Pit bulls from the Center of Animal Care and Control. Use pink card decks to lay-off people in a game, anyone with a Joker gets to stay, all other cards in the deck signal the workers, YOU ARE CANNED.
All the wonderful capital gains tax money from the 90s is gone. The rich just aren't making millions of dollars in capital gains any more, and being taxed on their gains at a nice 6.8% NYS rate and 3.6% NYC rate. Medicaid costs are up.
What are the options: raise taxes, cut services, make public employees work harder, reduce subsidies for transit and other services so that usage fees have to cover more of the cost.
Any mayor (Bloomberg, Green, Ferrer, Giuliani) would implement a combination of all 4. The only difference would be in how they sell it to the public and the public employees (which Bloomberg has done a terrible job of).
The amazing thing is that Pataki still claims it can all be done without raising taxes.
"The next big improvement for riders would be the Second Avenue subway but that's expected to take about 16 years of building and cost $12.6 billion dollars. Construction begins in 2004."
This makes it appear that NO benefits will be had from the Second Avenue Subway until at LEAST 2020. If that's true, it is unlikely to gain support.
My understanding is that the SAS will be built in sections, with the first few stations coming on line quickly. True? If it isn't, it should be -- the first stations should open by 2009, certainly by the time ESA is schedule to open. It if is, the TA should say so -- that partial relief on the Lex will be provided beginning in year X, with a completion schedule by section presented for the line.
The first portion to be constructed will surely be the "stubway" (125th to 63rd), because ESA can't open without it. Also, the 63rd St tunnel will be the SAS's only track connection to the rest of the system, and you need to have a way to move trains on and off the line.
Looking at the track diagrams included in the SDEIS, it appears that 42nd St, 14th St, and Chatham Sq could all be temporary terminals. So once the stubway has been built, the line could open in several stages before finally reaching Hanover Sq.
"If they were smart, they would still include a track connection at Grand St., whichever alignment they choose...."
No version of the SAS design has ever proposed such a connection, and now that the cross-platform transfer at Grand St has been rejected, it seems to be definitely precluded.
"With all the demands not to end up with a stubway, (say if money runs out or something) they may be pressured to build the lower portion first to ensure the public that will not happen."
There naturally will be some skepticism, but the upper portion of the SAS provides the greatest benefits, and it is also easier to build. Once you get below 63rd St, the line starts threading its way through denser infrastructure, and complex pedestrian transfers need to be built where it crosses other lines.
please ....please relay this message if you see a question from him online! Thank you
Sorry for doing this on such an important site for train buffs, but it's my only chance. I know he'll be on soon
ANNIE
thank you
NO NO NO NO!!!!!!
This is simply untrue. The only thing behind the walls at Grand is dirt.
Repeat, there will be no track connection between the SAS and the Chrystie line under any design now being considered, nor as far as I can tell was there such a connection in the 1970s design.
Some capital money is already slated for construction in 2004, but the next capital plan will be needed to complete phase 1. Phases 2 & 3 got rolled together, meaning they will be working on both sections simultaneously, but they think both should be finished at roughly the same time. If one finishes early (ha!), maybe that section can be opened before the other section.
Bry
You can see a Tube map in the pilot. Second Ave isn't built in 3000.
Too long. What would it take to advance 96th to 125th to 2009 or 2010, other than money?
Move the entire East Side to the Sunbelt?
Now if you spent 10x as much money, you could get a crew for every 3rd or so block and do massive parallel digging, but do you really want to spend $120 billion?
(You have a combo of cut & cover (requiring utility replacement) and mining (TBM). This kind of stuff just doesn't go fast. Look at the "Big Dig" in Boston. This is a comparable project.)
The cut and cover is in one place, and TBM another. There is no reason they cannot go on simultaneously. If the TBM is starting out from the north, the tunnel from 96th to 86th before will have to be finished before the tunnel from 86th to 63rd. If the TBM is starting from 63rd north, they the TA will require two TBMs, which makes no sense.
Once the tunnel is dug and the rock is removed, there is no reason not to work 24/7 underground. The 1/9 shows what is possible with all out effort. The subway could be running one year after the digging is finished.
After that, the TBM could just crunch along toward 14th Street, with rock removed at night by work train via the Broadway Line and the Montigue Tunnel indefinately, as in the 3rd Water Tunnel. But the upper half of the line needs to open ASAP.
As well as offering incentives for early completion, the MTA should find a way to motivate and inspire those involved in construction. In fact, inspire the whole city as well. That may be why ground breaking is set to begin at the climax of the subway centennial.
Early 20th Century labour and safety laws? :-P
Here's what I think he meant; I could be wrong...
Phase 1 (63/Lex-84/2nd) ~ 2009
Phase 2 (84/2nd-125/Lex) ~ 2015
Phase 3 (14/2nd-72/2nd and 63/RI) ~ 2015
Phase 4 (Hanover Sq-Houston/2nd) ~ 2019
The order makes sense because by opening 63 to 84 first, the Q can be sent there immediately. However, if 84 doesn't have the capacity to turn 2 routes, it doesn't make sense to jumble phases 2/3 together, since only service north of 63rd on the Q will be possible, or else a transversal T service that is 3x as useless than the Rockaway Park Shuttle, as it would go nowhere and transfer to nothing. Unless, of course, they plan on temporarily sending the V down 2nd Ave until they reach 125th.
The numbers don't seem to add up, though, because it takes 5 years to complete 2 stations, yet only 6 years to complete 8.
Actually, the 72nd and 86th Street stations would offload the Lex more than any other two stations, as 68th and 86th are the two non-CBD stations with most ridership on the Lex. Still, to really do the job they need to get a few more stations open by the end of the next capital plan, if they are fortunate enough to start construction.
Another feature of the 1st 2 stations is to show the new architechture (yeah, that's spelled wrong but I'm too tired to get my dictionary). The new arch (cheating!) is to be an open mezz/platform design; looks pretty cool in the "conceptual" drawings. Get'em exicted soon, they'll let you build the rest, I guess? (If you build it, they will pay the fare?)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Just let me know; I'm pretty sure I can prove I'm on the project.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
My crap-o-matic work laptop doesn't want to let me email you, so I'll do it tomorrow from my less-crap-o-matic desktop system. Won't be as great as a railfan trip, but you should get a kick out of the conceptual drawings.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
...offices? Exchange Place, Monday...
Umm, you guys are working out of New Jersey? I would have thought all the work would have been kept across the river.
Do you mind if I ask which part of the project you're working on? And if, in a fit of extreme stupidity, I ask if any engineering firms working on the SAS are looking for civil engineering College Interns/Coop students?
It's a whole bunch of crap: centralized PA system, Customer Info Screens (ie "5 minutes to next train" displays), wireless tablets for customer service agents, mech & electrical supervisory systems, smart CCTV, CBTC, advanced LAN tech (which I'm in charge of), correlation systems for events, possible OPTO, and probably I few things I'm missing.
Sounds like massive, expensive, overkill -- stuff that should be put in later as funds become available. PA/CIS is going systemwide over the next decade unless money runs out, so that makes sense. As for the rest, speed are cost are of the essense. OPTO won't make sense until the full length line is built, because the the BMT Bwy line can't take it for a long time.
Need to cut the gold plating, here and on ESA. Just hook the LIRR into the existing GCT and save $2 billion. Are the engineers financially crazy? We'll end up with nothing!
Do you seriously believe that all this is a significant part of the cost of the line? I don't think so.
Better to do it right the first time than to open a line that's just as primitive as the rest of the subway.
Yessir.
On the other hand, up until very recently, I was opposed to the Stubway and very much against building anything other than completely building a proper trunk. Now, I think that stance is a bit too harsh.
Now, I think that digging should begin at 63rd and continue north, building stations at appropriate distances (often not where specified in the SDEIS) and preferrably leaving room for four tracks. Stations should open and service should begin as the line is built. Include only the work that would be done during the period of any capital plan in each periodic capital budget. Maybe we'll never be able to make it to 125th without giving up again, but at least we'd have a few faces to blame for stopping the project in that case, and most importantly, _something_ would be built. I'm thinking of this stage as less of a Second Avenue subway and more of a manageable but very useful extension of the "Q."
I'm soliciting input on this. I realize that at this stage, any criticism of the SDEIS might be just another nail in the coffin, but I don't think that the SDEIS proposal lends itself to being split into bite-sized, relatively inexpensive sections. I'm considering turning this into a comment of record (after deciding to nix the pure "why-this-sucks" letter), so please slap me down or inflate my ego as appropriate.
Mark
We in New York City have been so screwed for so long that if we had any sense we'd be thrilled with 72nd alone.
Then in 2020 when everything is open there might be some new ideas on the books: 125th Street Crosstown, Pelham Line recapture or New Third Avenue line, Queens bypass, Governor's Island/Red Hook access.
Both could happen if we quit being so myopic.
Mark
Arti
Well, that's part of the rationale behind building smaller chunks at once. I agree that one option would need to be chosen as "primary" in order for any project to succeed, but intelligent building leaves room for both. Even the SDEIS plan leaves the possibility open.
Wait a sec. You said earlier that Pelham-Second Avenue is the only way to relieve the Lexington express, but the Pelham line is the Lexington local. What am I missing?
Mark
However, if the SAS goes north and captures the Lex local outright, then the Lex express will not fill up at 125th. Express load levels should be much lower all down the line. I'd like to see the numbers for this option --they must have been crunched. But it's not easy getting info out of the team.
So, let's play devil's advocate for a minute if you don't mind...
Inconveniencing Bronx riders by providing them with fewer options for the benefit of Manhattan riders is considered a good thing? If that's the case, why not save the billion and stub-end the line at 125th and Second?
And to what end? You've just gotten the Pelham riders off of Lexington, and with them, eliminated the local. Now, make either the Woodlawn or Dyre trains the locals, and you're pretty much right back where you've started, with riders preferring the express within Manhattan.
Pelham riders who really wanted Lexington get upset. Woodlawn and Dyre riders who may have transferred to Second Avenue are denied the opportunity. Second Avenue becomes the worst blow to the Bronx in transit history.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a Bronx extension of the Second Avenue line, but I don't see the true benefit of this, especially to the exclusion of a transfer. If the only way to shift some of the Lexington load to Second is to make the transit system less flexible, then maybe there's something wrong with the Second Avenue plan, and maybe we're finding solutions for symptoms rather than problems.
Mark
The point is to make the whole system work better. If the Lex express remains crush loaded, everyone suffers. (And Pelham could still go Lex express, they'd just have to do 2 cross-platform transfers instead of 1.) I'd bet most wouldn't be too inconvenienced anyway. The models could tell us more, if they were opened up for this sort of alternatives analysis.
Way back when, I wrote in and suggested saving money by building the SAS with no stations, recapturing the Pelham instead. The idea would be to have two expresses and a local instead of the other way around. The Lex local would relay north of 125th, and be reserved for the Upper East Side. The Second Avenue Express would go from 125th to 72nd (serving the hospital/university complex), then diverge in to the two downstream branches. The Dyre could also be recaptured, in my view.
But the stations south of 125th have far more ridership than the Pelham. I think that's one reason my idea was dismissed, if in fact it was ever considered.
The real beneficiaries will be the Upper Manhattan riders, who will have an empty No. 6 train starting out at 125th St., and will probably have a fairly cleared-out Q or T train coming south from there, thanks to the cross platform transfers by the Pelham passengers at 125th.
72nd & 86th: 2009
96th, 106th, 116th: 2014
54th, 42nd, 23rd, 14th: 2016
Houston, Grand, Chatham, Fulton, Hanover: 2020
Obviously this is a bit different from my 1st post- stuff changes, but this is the current schedule as far as I know at this time.
Bry
Too long.
But on the other hand, if 86th really happens in 2009, that will be beyond most people's wildest expectations. It will also seriously relieve the Lex. Large numbers of people migrate westward from the high rises on 1st through 3rd to the Lex. Especially, 2nd Ave and 72nd will be a very valuable stop because it doesn't line up with the Lex stops. For many square blocks of very dense real estate, that station will be closer than any Lex station.
And it also will keep up the pressure for extending the line.
The highest density development extends to 96th Street, since you have a fourth avenue -- York -- from that point south.
And there's also East End, which ends at 90th.
People think I'm a pessimist here, but I turn out to be a wild-eyed optimist. Months ago, I said it would be $1 billion/mile to build SAS, and was attacked for suggesting such a thing. Then it turns out it's $2 billion/mile. I suggest the full-length SAS is dead because there's no money for it, especially the half the feds are supposed to pick up, and we'd be lucky to get the original Stubway. Now it turns out the even the "full Stubway" isn't happening.
On the other hand, we're finally seeing MTA deal with reality. There's not $16.8 billion out there, but this first bite, they can afford. Something like $2-3 billion? Ridership of 200,000?
The feds will quite likely pick up half of this smaller number. I'd hoped for a larger bite, but this segment will get the most bang for the buck. And of course nearly a mile of completed SAS and the vital connection at 125th will beckon. As for southern part of SAS ("Phase III," "Phase IV"): RIP. This way, MTA won't even have to pay for a light rail system through the Lower East Side. Very clever.
No, you caught something that was missed at the time! Unfortunately bryan1945 no longer posts on this board.
I think the projected 12-16 years for completion is a FLAT OUT LIE, it could be done way faster than that if they work around the clock and use more in house employees. I understand that the lower Manhattan are will have difficulties but it can be done faster than that if they build it progressively.
How would it make more sense? I've read this so many times, but noone ever bothers to substantiate those claims. Most of NYC express runs start as locals. Another reason is to add capacity, where on 2nd Ave is the need for 60 tph?
Arti
Arti
Arti
Precisely, but not SAS.
Also lex is not that crowded, that it would need 150% additional capacity, 75, should be enough.
Arti
Uh, I don't think there's a correlation between bus riders and subway riders along a given corridor. The bus allows a more direct entry into the "transit mode" for people. Burdened with packages, say, it's very convenient to be able to remain on one level and walk no more than a block or so for the boarding point. A city with the density of New York, esp. the CBD of Battery Park to Harlem, needs that level of mobility. While the specific total number of paid fares may be "equal" to 2 TPH, the purpose and destinations of the passengers are not generally on a par with passengers riding trains under the bus line.
Arti
The planned line is an attempt to satisfy everyone by having only two tracks but with stations spaced further apart than would generally be found on a local. I'm afraid it will satisfy no one.
Express maniacs coming from the Bronx will generally not transfer to a 2nd Avenue local.
Many potential local passengers who live near 2nd Avenue will still be closer to a 6 station.
I don't think the line needs to start its life as a four-track line, but I do think it needs to be built with the a potential expansion in mind. Stations should be located where one would eventually want local stations on a four-track line. That way, even if the express tracks never come to fruition, at least it would be an attractive line to neighborhood residents.
I don't understand the analogy to the Sea Beach. The population density around 2nd Avenue is a wee bit higher than the population density around the Sea Beach, don't you think?
Why on earth would they transfer at all unless SAS would get them closer to their destination. No one destined downtown would transfer to SAS at 125th Street.
«I don't understand the analogy to the Sea Beach. The population density around 2nd Avenue is a wee bit higher than the population density around the Sea Beach, don't you think?»
That brings up another question, which stations would be express ones, they all deserve to those. IIRC, you complain about the 7th Av not serving the local customers sufficently. Actually a better analogy would be Astoria line.
Arti
Maybe to get a seat? Some folks don't consider a seat a luxury. I sometimes transfer to a V or R at Roosevelt Ave just to get a seat when I don't feel like standing any longer, especially if I can spare the extra five minutes for the local. Or maybe someone might want a pole to himself instead of sharing it with six other people.
Then they would do it regardless of SAS being local or express, remember that was the original argument.
Arti
They would if SAS had an express service that stopped at 125,42,14, then local. I know express runs don't save much time over locals, but an 83-block-long express run has to save SOME time. This could provide the neccessary diversion off the Lex line before it has a chance to get crowded, which I believe was one of the goals of the SAS in the first place. It should at least have a 3rd track with such a service, even if it maybe stops at 72 St. Have the Canarsie, 4 Av (south), Jamaica, & all (except Lex & Bwy) river crossings taught us nothing? A two-track line cannot be taken OOS without suspending service, and if a train is disabled or in event of incident, all trains are stuck in place.
If they're going to spend all this money to dig the tunnel they should throw in a 3rd/4th track or at least the space for it, for once the ground is sealed and several years down the line we realize we needed one, it'll be too late. Besides, if it is to be all island platforms, doesn't that mean there is enough room in the line of platforms to stick a 3rd track underneath/above?
Few minutes, as we can judge by current MTA schedules, but you'd have to spend time transferring and waiting for the train. Also lex express will only make 2 more stops.
«A two-track line cannot be taken OOS without suspending service, and if a train is disabled or in event of incident, all trains are stuck in place»
There are plenty of those in NYC. To spend billions to use it only in the case of emergency is ridiculous.
Arti
It means boring another parallel tunnel. Judge yourself.
Arti
The 10 block spacing on the section 116-106-96-86 is about the limit of what's right for local station spacing - I'd go so far as to say it's just about what's ideal. The gaps 86-72 and 72-54 are silly. They would do better to replace 72 and 54 with stations at 76 (sorry, couldn't resist...), 66, 57, and 50.
I do think it needs to be built with the a potential expansion in mind.
Agreed. There should be two stations on stubway designed as express stations, preferably 116 (so that Expresses can go to the Bronx and Locals across 125) and 66 (or 72 if they really are serious about mega-gaps). The Express tunnel in between could be dug at a later date if required.
4 tracks are definitely not needed below 63rd St as 2 tracks will have diverged to become the Broadway Express. A full 2nd Avenue Express effect could be given by making the Express tracks in UES become the only tracks on 2nd Av below 63rd St.
You are forgetting the stop at 63rd and 3rd Avenue.
Arti
Arti
Of course not, neither there couldn't be. The stop is a block away at 3rd.
«But that still leaves a huge gap for the "T" trains»
And the problem with this is?
Arti
Then again, don't forget the existing turnouts from the 63 St line that will allow a Manhattan-bound Queens Blvd train to head south on 2 Ave and vice-versa. The MTA doesn't seem to be planning such a service right now, but if the connection is there it could happen, and in that case four tracks south of 63 St might be justified.
Since the busiest stations are built with entrances at both ends, the gaps get to be 3 blocks smaller. If you include opening up the 3rd Ave end of the current Lex/63rd station, according to the SDEIS (Table 2-1) you would have entrances at:
125, 116, 106, 96, 86, 83, 72, 69, 63 (and 3rd), 57-56, 54-53, 44, 42-41, 26, 23, 14, 12, 3, Houston, etc.
The worst gap here is 11 blocks, (or 12.5 if you ignore 3rd and 63rd), not much more than the 10 between local stops in many cases in Manhattan.
The one major cross street without a nearby entrance is 79th.
That wouldn't show it was done deliberately. It would show they ran out of money.
I still think they could expand it to 4 tracks, it would make lots more sense and relieves crowding on the Lexington Av line and the M15
Just to punch up Arti's point, I really don't see the need for 4 tracks. With modern signalling, the 2-track line should be able to run 40 tph. A 4-track line would therefore be 80 tph. Does 2nd Ave really need that?
I think the projected 12-16 years for completion is a FLAT OUT LIE, it could be done way faster than that if they work around the clock and use more in house employees
Some people use phrases like "flat out lie" too loosely. Factors to consider:
Whether they use in-house or outside resources, working all night costs more money. The work to restore the 1/9 subway was done that way, but this was an extraordinary situation.
Work at ground level in residential neighborhoods will probably be limited to waking hours.
Traffic re-routes need to be self-contained, i.e., you don't want to take the entire length of 2nd Ave out of service at once.
Where the SAS requires connections/transfers to other lines, there will be significant service disruptions, and you don't want to disrupt too much of the system at once.
Finally, capital dollars in any given year are scarce.
Right on schedule. If only they can fix an escalator with such speed....
On the El structure just to the west of this, there are little square-shaped pieces of steel with bolts, spaced apart at the width which the two rails (and the supporting steel colums underneath) would be. In fact, one of them looks as though it has been rebuilt-they're probably going to put another "obstruction" building there.
This is all on the straight section, the bumper is literally right at the end of the straight track, before it curves with Fulton Street. Does anybody know what the deal is with this? Was there once a track there? And if so, where was Van Siclen Ave station? There is no indication of a switch or anthing; it looks as though it went right into where the platform is. I can't believe that nobody (myself included) noticed this on the Eastern Division tour a couple of weeks ago.
It was converted into a center platform station and the center track eliminated sometime between 1903 and 1917.
I believe that there is a track diagram in the Allen Paul Kahn book, The Tracks of New York No. 2, Brooklyn Elevated Railroads.
Jimmy
Hehe, well partly correct. It actually GOES to 76th Street. The vortex is right at the end of that girder above Alabama station. They say that on quiet foggy nights you can actually see the R39's ride down that girder from where they are stored at 76th Street Station on their way to the Twilight Zone.
76th STREET!!!!
Sloooooowly I turned ... step by step ... inch by inch ...
The station remained side platform with a center track and interlocking until about 1916, when ENY was rebuilt.
If only they really could still build Els in 1993.
The MTA did just the same thing. As soon as they possibly could, they "drove stakes" by eliminating the token, altering MetroCard machines to start charging $2 per fare and altering turnstiles to deduct $2 from MC's. The MTA can now make a good argument, and apparently they intend to do so, that requiring them to re-alter the machinery to go back to the $1.50 fare would not only waste all of the money spent in changing the machinery to accept the $2 fare, it would also reduce its income.
Just like the MTA, Moses would also never open his books to anyone.
Moses would be proud.
What the MTA did here is simply the process that has attended every modern fare increase or permanent service change. The only difference is that, it is claimed, the public notice was misleading. Robert Moses wouldn't have had any hearings at all.
The MTA is, in fact, required to open its books to many people--and does.
The requirements did not state that it had to break down into very simple terms the complicated web of bond and debt refinacing
The straphangers campigns lawsuit went after a technicality that they claim that all informations was not presented in language that is understandable to the average rider
The term average rider is where this gets interesting. Conmcidering more then half the riders are not native english speakers, what is language the average rider can understand and at what point do you draw the line on what level of detail is acceptable
Quite frankly the lawsuit was just ment to stick it to the mta becasue the state senator who filed it does not like the rupublicans in albany because they redistricted his district to include washington heights.
By the way, what word were you trying for when you typed "arfuig"? I keep trying to convince my wife that this place is mostly serious, but she has the uncanny ability to see posts like this and then wonders how I can say that.
(That's my guess.)
Get your facts straight before you post
Going back to the $1.50 fare will results in many layoffs at the mta and severe service cuts
Concidering the average fare is $1.06 and under the new fare structure it is $1,32. The MTA has done a good job of operating the system
Only if we had real problems. Remember the early 1980;s. No Ac. Trains breaking down constantly, trains always delayed
HOW SOON WE FORGET!!!
I could tell you about some private sector companies who have had consistent revenue gains, even in this era of economic crisis, who have continued to lay off employees, resulting in a progressive deterioration of customer service quality, yet financial benefits to executives, of course.
If you could convince me that the fare increase would directly result in service and capital improvements, I'd grant you the lawsuit is ridiculous. However, the Robert Moses-like tactics of the MTA, along with the recent scandal involving the new downtown headquarters construction, do not engender in me much confidence that the increase in revenue will prevent declines in service quality. It looks to me like the most immediate financial needs of the MTA are its debt service and making up for its own bungled management of the construction project.
For example, it doesn't look like the extra $0.50/ride is being spent to clean up the increase in garbage and grafitti in my home station these days. And the last A train I rode was so dirty I almost got off and waited for the next one.
It looks to me like the most immediate financial needs of the MTA are its debt service and making up for its own bungled management of the construction project.
Even if this were true, the money has to come from somewhere. But anyhow, it is not true. The system has benefited from enormous capital improvements over the last 20 years. How do you imagine these were paid for?
For example, it doesn't look like the extra $0.50/ride is being spent to clean up the increase in garbage and grafitti in my home station these days.
Look at all of the station rehabs that have been completed successfully in the last several years (Museum of N.H., 14th/8th), those in progress (Stillwell Ave, 72nd/Bdwy, Times Sq), and those about to happen (South Ferry, Fulton St). These are just examples.
It's true that many stations have yet to be redone. Without the fare increase, you'll wait for them a lot longer.
Almost no one is paying more than $.30 additional per ride. Many are paying less.
Otherwise, I agree.
The metrocard program which rewuired a significant capitol expenditure which was paid for with new debt for instance should have resulted in the closing of over 100 tooken booths thus saving a few hundred million dollars. The first series of booth closings should have occured in 1998 with most unneeded booth at part time entrances already closed. The lawsuit
Other improvemnts such as the new rail cars were needed.
The place the straphangers campaign should be focusing is in the areas that will improve the way the MTA operates such as how it manages capitol projects such as it's new headquarters. Preventing further money wasites in the future will allow more money to put into providing omproved service.
Maintianing and improving staffing for cleaning crews would be the first to go if the fare hike was reversed. The MTA probably is currently cutting corners recently but hopefully will get thier act together
Essentially true, except for the "capital spending plan" part. The state just shifted debt onto the MTA, period. And don't forget the underfunded, increased pensions.
We need to ficus on the area we can
FYI I just read on crainsny.com that moody's is about to downgrade NYS debt rating because the budget they are passing will create HUGE BUDGET deficits in the coming years
This is the same rating company that cheared the way the MTA responcibly handled the extra $600 million the mTA recieved from it;s bond refinacing
Plus the state senate just snuck through another surcharge under the radar that will charge $2.50 for each new tire purchaced in NYS including the tires on your new car. This is to set up a fund for tire recycling although only aportion will go to fund tire recycling
Clue to anyone planning to sue over the next fare hike: do so more than a few days in advance so the suit can be concluded before the fare hike takes effect.
Robert Moses often began his projects before the necessary approvals were in. That isn't what happened here. The MTA's plans had been approved by all who needed to approve it.
The fare hike was scheduled to take effect on May 4. With that in mind, when do you think it should have taken effect?
I'm looking for information on Third Avenue Railway, specifically the 600-series cars. First, does anyone have renumbering information for when the cars went to Wiener Stadtwereke Verkehrsbetriebe in Vienna, Austria? I'm trying to figure out two things. First, what was the Vienna number for TARS #637; and second, what was the TARS number for Vienna #4208?
Also, I'm confused about when the Vienna cars that were repatriated came back to the U.S. I would have thought they would all have come at once, but the sketchy information I have about the various preserved cars isn't very consistent. Seashore got its car in 1980; NatCap got its in 1971; and I don't know when Branford got its. Can anyone help with information about when these cars were retired and brought back to the US? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
There is an ex-TARS/Vienna car preserved at Crich as a TARS car, and another in the Vienna tram museum preserved as Vienna ran them.
Supposedly there is another one in Europe someplace, unrestored.
There are also four ex-3rd Ave. peter witt style Huffliners (all steels) existing in Brasil, one beautifully preserved. The other three are hanging in there.
Nothing inane, obscure or generally uninteresting about this. I'm saving my dollars for one of the St. Pete O scale models!!
Wonder why Branford hasn't tried to get one of the Huffliners, in whatever shape it's in? A Huffliner is a missing link for a 3AV collection.
The Point has an example from Peter's home town of Cleveland & it's in their Visitor Center on static display.
... but then this thread is more about TARS then Peter Witts.
"Supposedly there is another one in Europe someplace, unrestored."
The one at the Vienna museum is Vienna 4208. I know that TARS 637 is at a museum in Graz, and has been restored to its TARS colors. Other than that, I don't know what TARS cars are still in Europe.
"There are also four ex-3rd Ave. peter witt style Huffliners (all steels) existing in Brasil, one beautifully preserved. The other three are hanging in there."
I'd never even heard of those cars! Do you know what group owns them, and where I might be able to find more information on them?
Frank Hicks
The Brasil/RIO cars are they in addition to or part of the eight ?
Here's what I've got currently:
TARS - WSV* - location
629 -- 4239 -- Branford
631 -- 4216 -- Seashore
636 -- 4208 -- Vienna (Austria) trolley museum
637 -- 4209 -- Graz (Austria) trolley museum
674 -- 42?? -- National Tramway Museum (England)
678 -- 4220 -- National Capital
* = Wiener Stadtwereke Verkehrsbetriebe
Frank Hicks
We do get folks who ask that level of detail after we tell the story of 629. I try to be accurate vs. making stuff up as I go along.
FYI - the Huffliners were homebuilt "modern" cars by the 3rd Ave in 1937-8 by recycling old parts with new improvements and new bodies. The primarily ran on Broadway. The 3rd Ave management tried out the Peter Witt style door arrangement on these 75 cars only, the later cars like Branford's 629 went back to their traditional end door arrangement.
Anybody know if there are any 600's that went to Bombay surviving? Maybe I'll check the web for Indian tram enthusiast sites...
There is no 7:20pm Babylon. The last three peaks out of Penn depart at 7:09pm, 7:30pm express, and 7:39pm. If it was short, you might have been seeing a test not carrying passengers.
Mark
Oh, never mind, I misunderstood. You meant 7:20pm arrival in Babylon. That train originates at Flatbush.
Mark
One of the first times I saw that train, very nice inside, but I'm used to double doors, not the wide single door on the train. Interior display and BONG sounds (before C/R is about to make an announcement) remind me for the R142/143 trains.
Oyster Bay!
(hehe)
Mark
Can a system be partially Plaform Door/ partially regular and still function? It'd seem to work, so long as the platform doors were actuated off the actions of the Train doors, it could work. And if the system can be a mixture of platform door and no platform door then it would allow for expansion in exsisting systems easily.
But I'm still confused as to why BART, SEPTA, WMATA, MARTA, LAMTA, CTA, MBTA, Baltimore, Miami, and yes, NYCTA aren't using platform doors. I can understand SEPTA, NYCTA, MBTA and the CTA, they're quite old systems with questionable needs for platform doors, although parts of NY seem to need them. However the newer systems, especially the Red Line, seem to have little excuse not to use them. Don't those systems care that 12-9s create all sorts of delays?
Any thoughts?
It is my guess that secound ave subway will utilize ATC and possible ZPTO
many NYCT platforms are just too narrow. Platform doors will make the platform even narrower
If and when NYCT goes ZPTO once CBTC is installed system wide the cost bennifit ananlysis
ZPTO is not a good safety proposition. With no crew on the train, you have people that could be trapped in the train in the event of emergency.
T/O's should be eliminated. C/R's shouldn't.
And I've heard that ZPTO trains have THE BEST RFWS!
How is the C/R at High St gonna help on a train stuck in the cranberry tunnel?
If the doors are to be controled via CCTV why not control them from central control so that one operator could service multiple stations. During off hours one operator could cover ten or more stations becasue fewwer trains are running. As each train aproaches a station, the request for an door operatoer could be placed into a que for the next available operator.
Like these:
VAL 206 above, VAL 208 below
VAL 206 operates in Lille, Toulouse, and Orly (one of the Paris Airports).
VAL 208 operates in Lille and Rennes.
Lille has a really great system. It's got platform doors throughout, peaks at 40tph (with capacity for a further 20tph), and is all ATO. Okay, there are only two lines, but they're both a decent length (line 2 nearly ends up going into Belgium!). Toulouse, Orly, and Rennes saw a neat idea and borrowed it.
Moving from two man crews to ZPTO is a but radical and will never happen in NYC.
To come back to reality
For the life of me I don't know why NYCT is still using two man crews and is not installing CCTV to fully cover platforms. The T/O should be driving the train and operating the doors via CCTV platform camerers who transmitt via rf to incab flat panel monitors. The ROI on such an instalation would be paid for in a matter of months.
Many stations on the brighton and broadway have recieved CCTV but only cover parts of the platform. It is measures like this that advocacy groups should be advocating
Such as sytem is far safer then the current system. The reduction in draggings at stations with CCTV is proof
I do see a point so that in largere system T/O should still be onboard to handel such situation.
I suggest you to read through the archives of SubTalk about Taegu subway arson fire to think why this should be happened and caused such a devastating result.
Here are some links that you can refer to:
Question about Korean Subway Fire
More Than 130 Dead in S.Korea Subway Fire
I did have the thought of moving the C/R off the train and putting them in a booth somewhere on the platform. The whole platform would be equipped with CCTV cameras, and there would be one person for each platform watching those cameras, making sure that people aren't getting dragged or caught in the doors. They would operate the Platform doors, which would, in turn, be relayed to the train car's doors, opposite what most people would envision.
This way there is no need for the C/R to walk back and forth to check platforms on the left or right. There is no need for an RF transmitted video picture, as on SEPTA's MFL. All trains can have RFWs because there is no need for the C/R to check left or right.
Now I know this will get me in trouble... :-)
Are you kidding me? You suggested bringing back the RFW. Expect the ticker-tape parade to commence shortly.
Will all the nice railfans protect me?
[Glup!] :-)
Such a system could be implimented on some lines in less then a year. Broadway and beighton lines have CCTV at most stations. Granted not on the entire platform, but that can be worked out
Plus it would not make sense to upgrade any car older then r62.
Even if the MTA made the decision to impliment one man crews on all lines as soon as possible(not practical). The earliest the entire system could operate this way would be years in the future. Not to mention it does not make sense to spend money upgrading any equiptment up for retirement. Individula lines such as the brighton and the broadway could be opearting in a matter of months becasue many of the stations already have some cctv coverage
What is the cost of employing someone in a job function that is not needed.
Everyone is complaining on the effect of the fare hike on poor folks and that MTA employees deserve a rasie. This is a way to satify both
As for future headcount and payrole. Overall payrole for train crews will decreae. The take for each remaining crew member wil increase
For every govenment worker who gets paid out of tax reveune/fare that is not needed. Two private sector jobs are lost due to the higher taxes to pay for this person
How many good paying privatge sector jobs and the taxes they bring to fund such projects as mass transit expansion and better schools are lost by employing workers that are not needed. two man crews are not needed with todays technology. At one time each elevator had an operator. Thier were fewer elevators in buildings. Without the cost of an elevatore operator, building owners are able to operate more elevaors
Look at the pluses. The MTA would be able to run more service as the cost to operate each individual train set decreaes. The money spent on two man crews would get re-distibuted to other areas. We can have west end express, more service on lines currently underserved. More bus services, etc
For example the sea beach and bay ridge lines could operate with 6 car trains more often in rush hour at the same cost. It makes it less expensive to operate more service.
A C/R making $50,000 a year gets fired, is on unemployment/public assistance for months to years, and then ends up in an unskilled, low-wage job because the private sector doesn't have jobs that meet the skills of the C/R. Eliminating good-paying jobs is a lose-lose situation. Under your plan, I, as a working class taxpayer, feel like the system will be really screwing a lot of people over.
Even his e-mail is suspect: adspace25@yahoo.com.
All his posts are pure, unadulterated crap. He spells worse than our West Coast poster.
He earned first place in my killfile, as I do not wish to read anything he posts.
I can't wait to SMEE on Sunday, June 29.
Chuck Greene
Bisedes, I thank my spilling iz great. Dan't ya agoo? :-)
Chuck Greene
U iz so sily maeking fun of dis situasion CP :-). [Look at what you made me do]
All jokes aside though, I agree with you people don't want to go through all that spell check stuff but this is BAD, 'voiceofreason' makes good arguments but the spelling is not there and sometimes makes no sense.
If you go to PC Magazine's website, they tell you how to write a script for a button in MSIE that you hit when you want to spellcheck the highlighted text in an Explorer window. The script pops up MSWord, spellchecks the text, then pastes the corrected text back into Internet Explorer. I used it before i reinstalled WinXP on my new HD. I should probably get the script again.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I do consulting work and I am at diiferent work locations with people I don't always know.
Can't risk getting caught.
Yes the riding public can get more service for the same cost or the same level of service for signficantly less money. Tje lower operating costs will allow the mta to not raise the fare in mthe future helping out working class new yorkers
That means more higher paying T/O positions.
but less overall train crew memembers
You need to take a class in macro economics.
any changes since they take time to impliment on a system as large as NYCT will not result in anyone getting layed off.
The people who are getting screwed over currently are the riding public who suffer with long headways on many lines because the MTA has failed to upgrade it's technology to the same level as other major transit operations across the US and around the world.
Employing people and paying them out of tax payers dollars for job rolls no longer needed hurts all new yorkers.
As for those young folks who don't have marketable skills to get a job in this fast pace chaging world. Go back to school to learn marketable skills
The Government will lend anyone looking to go to school to learn a trade, obtain marketable skills or get a college degree money to do so.
The MTA is not a social service agancy. It's mission is to provide safe affordable service to it's riders NOT an employment agency.
Why should the riding public be saddld with the cost of two man crews at over $100k per year when comprable service could be provided at $60k per train creww allowing more total trains runs per year for the same or less cost
And your entire attitude towards transit seems to upgrade the hell out of technology, but you seem to be pretty fiscally conservative. Just how exactly will you pay for the billions of dollars in technology upgrades? There is only so much you can hack out of a budget with no regards to the workforce. If anyone needs the lesson in basic economics (as well as typing and/or spelling), believe me it's you.
Arti
The elevator system your are probably are refering to is not microprossor controled. They are older mechanical controled elevators which don't use "smart" technology.
Most elevators installed over 15 years ago use a mechanical control mechanism. This includes the large majority of office buildings and apae\rtment houses. Only recently has microprocessor control became inexpensive enought to be universaly deployed.
many of the older non microprocessor(mechanically) controlled elevator cars had to go completly to the top or bottom floor to change direction
For example, if a rider boards car A on floor 1 of a 20 story building and got off on the 6th floor. A secound rider requests a down elevator on the 4th floor. Even though Car A is the closes car and is available, it most go all the way to the top before it reverses direction. this was done becasuse the mechanical mechanism can't think and do what if senarios.
The new microprocessor controlled elevators know where each other elevator in it's grouping area. The system determines which elevator is closest to a floor and has enough capasity to pick up rides. If the weight on a car indicated that the car is almost filled, the car does not respond to call requests. Depending on the time of day, cars not in use wait on floors closes to where they are needed.
In the morning, empty cars return to the ground level where most riders will be boarding. One elevator is designated to respond to down rewquests. Since the system thinks and knows if a rider is aboard, it chooses the elevator car that already has a rider requesting down service to service other floors while the remianing cars return to floor to pick up people arriving to work.
During the evening, empty cars stratigically stager tehmselves throught the building to be able to respond to request quickly
Buildings upgrading to microprocessor contolers often see an increase in elevator capasity of 20-30% and shorter wait times with the same number of elevator cars
My the office building I worked at in midtown uograded to microprocessor cotrols two years ago. The elevators came much faster. The older mechanical system would send elevators down to the loby when not in use and were required to go to the top floor in orde to reverse direction. If someone was coing uo from the loby and you jumoed on the elevator and selected a floor below, it went up to the top before heading down. A big time waister
"Another example of lots money wasted on high-tech high-speed equipment, actually wasting people more time.
Not to mention that those were decent paying union jobs, with good benefits. "
Not a true statement. Buildings upgrading to microprocesor controls from "dumb" mechanical controls see an increase in elevator system capasity and decreased maintance costs of the old mechanical logic system.
If buildings needed elevator opertors, thier would be fewer elevator cars in serivice at any given time causing long waits to get to onea office. Not to mention smaller buildings, and all but the most expensive residential buildings would have no elevators due to the cost of the operators. The costs would be just to prohibbited.
WheN I went to brooklyn tech in the early 1990's, the elevators were still manually operated. No more then one of the 8 elevator cars was in use at any given time(4 cars were in operating order) due to the labor cost of the operator.
Since Brooklyn tech HS installed automatic elevators thy operate multiple elevator cars at one time significantly enhancing the experience for students, especially those with asthma who had trouble climbing up and down the 8 story building
And this in your opinion is a good thing? Obviously you don't realise that that same "decreased maintenance" kills jobs. Microprocessors are evel.
Arti
"decreased maintance kill jobs"
actually it creates jobs becasue it codst less for building operators to run thier buildings decreasing rents for business, making it more economical to run a business in nyc
It reduces rents which gives more money to tenants to spend around town creating jobs otherplaces
It is quite obvious you are a high school dropout
Arti
Rents are set based on what the market will pay, but the lowest the rent can go is based on the fixed costs of a business.
Adding a tremdous fixed cost such as an elevator operator on every elevator would result in fewer elevators and longer waits
similar to what goes on a NYCT.
if it cost less to run train, thier would be more trains runnning on some lines
Arti
Arti is still sore about losing his job when the buggy whip factory closed. :-)
Tom
That was the evel politicians, who forced us out of business, of course.
Arti
How about the much simpler solution: the Paternoster.
1. Like Chris mentions you have to retrain the C/Rs ($$$) and also you'll have to bring up their salary even higher than it was before.
2. I know we're all big on more service. Who isn't, really. But how do you propose doing trackwork, etc on shorter headways? Shorter headways lead to more major service disruptions during GOs.
Why should the riding public be saddld with the cost of two man crews at over $100k per year when comprable service could be provided at $60k per train creww allowing more total trains runs per year for the same or less cost
Ok, so let me get this one straight.
2 man crew, $100G. 1 man crew at $60G at 1.5 times the service is still $90G. Not really that big of a difference.
Please again lets realize that not every crew is going to come close to $100G because not everyone out there is at top pay.
My poin ts that if the MTA saw the need to increase the service on a subway line they could still do so if needed for less then the cost of the current service
By the way $40k per train savings results in hundreds of Millions in savings which can resukt in more service.
You supported my point. Headways could be reduced by 25% providing more tps to underserved lines and still be less expensive then the current service
It is a win win for everyone. I don't understand your oposition
Anyway you spin it, it is a positive development. One that needs to be implimented in the near future
And who's out there looking for work in this downturn? Ex-elevator operators who want to go back to their $5.00/hr jobs, or laid-off trained technicians who want the $50.00/hr? Nobody ever wants to go back to manual operation, either labor or management, once they've tasted better.
Everybody is screaming about a fare hike, since much of the fare goes toward paying employees, wouldn't the elimination of a few jobs allow the MTA to run a $1.50 fare?
R-32
It would be far cheaper and just and just as effective to transmitt via rf to flat pannel monitors in the C/R cab.
Rf transmission equiptment is dirt cheap. Flat Panel monitors are now dirt cheap. 15 inch flat panel can be had for less then $200
Labor is very expensive
Platform doors prevent people getting on to the line (accidentally, suicidally or murderously), and therefore contribute to safety, whether the train is TPTO, OPTO or ZPTO. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it is cost-effective to install them retrospectively to old subways.
cool
I agree that it is probaly a good idea to have a staff member aboard most trains.
In Tokyo, I can think of one subway line built with platform doors that has through service to a private commuter line that doesn't have them. So the Platform/Regular is not unheard of. There is another line that was retrofitted with platform doors recently.
Plus, how much easier would it be if it was nearly impossible to throw trash onto the tracks? No more track fires, less maitenance, and safer commuting, seems like a good idea to me.
That is a statement I would never say. :-) My FIRST experience with transit of any kind was the Hartsfield Airport People Mover and it has platform doors. To this day, the people mover is one of my favorite trains in the world. And I'm pissed now that only ticketed passengers can ride the train :-(
John
Imagine how much fun that'd be :/
Not to mention, it there's a big alignment issue, you'd need something like a leveling head on an elevator to align the train to to the doors just right. Yet another thing to break...
The only real advantage would be shutting out a lot of heat input into the stations, and stopping people from falling off the platforms, but it really doesn't make sense from a cost benifit standpoint (one can do better ventilation, and design trackways to protect falling passengers)
Oh yes, didn't the LIRR have automagic doors to the stairs leading to the platforms at Penn at one time? I seem to recall seeing the remnants of them as a kid...
Is alignment really a big issue? I assume you're talking about NYCT, but the original post mentioned all transit systems. Hasn't the software been refined in the past 30 years to where a train will align exactly nearly everytime? With NYCT, don't the T/Os already line up nearly perfect with gap fillers and the "stand aside" signs like they have at Grand Central?
Retrofitting all of a system like NYCT with doors wouldn't make that much sense, but a busy stations where crowding is at dangerous levels, shouldn't they be considered?
Comparing airport people movers to urban rail transit systems is like comparing apples to oranges. These are two very different animals
Is alignment really a big issue? I assume you're talking about NYCT, but the original post mentioned all transit systems. Hasn't the software been refined in the past 30 years to where a train will align exactly nearly everytime? With NYCT, don't the T/Os already line up nearly perfect with gap fillers and the "stand aside" signs like they have at Grand Central?
The train control system on the newer systems would have little trouble birthing trains properly on the platforms to align platform doors with train doors. System built after the bart (Washington DC metro, Baltimore Metro, Miami Metro, Los Angeles Red Line) all use the same basic train control system. Interfacing platform door with existing train control system would not be that big of a challenge. The deal is the capitol cost of the platform hardware plus the maintenance cost puts this out of range of any cost benefit in my opinion. System like WMATA are having trouble keeping there escalators and elevators running with the budgets they have to work with.
John
Yes. There's at least one line in London like this. Jubilee?
Mark
Even on the Jubilee line extension, platform doors are only fitted at underground stations. The overground stations from Canning Town to Stratford don't have them.
The same is true of the Singapore MRT system. This was built from scratch with platform doors at all underground stations but not at any of the overground ones.
I recall reading somewhere that this is because the principal justification for platform doors is not to do with keeping people off the track (which would apply at any station).
In the case of the Jubilee line, the costs of the doors were offset by a reduction in the costs of building pressure reduction shafts to prevent excessive drafts on the platforms. In the case of Singapore, also the ability to a/c the platforms without a/cing the tunnels.
The main drawback I can see with platform doors is that they determine the layout of the rolling stock that can be used on that line. Trains with the doors in different places can't be used, which limits the transit authority's flexibility in assignment of trains. In the London case, they bought a whole new fleet of trains for the Jubilee Line and retired the previous ones very prematurely (less than 20 years old), which seems very wasteful. In St Petersburg (see my other post), all the trains seemed identical to me, so presumably the platform doors are no problem, except that they retrict any future design changes of trains.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Which would you have rather had to swallow, the Platform Doors at selected stations? Or full width cabs? And Neither is not an answer.
Rest assured ... the doors WILL align ... in the NEXT release. :)
You can see them here, on the London Underground's Jubilee Line, there is something separating the platform and the train. This is the partition on which the platform doors are mounted, in this case it's made out of Plexiglas, allowing a nearly unhindered view of the trains coming and going. The doors in this case are clearly open, and note that they provide a good deal leeway in getting the train lined up, so it's not too hard on the T/O.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i23000/img_23676.jpg
Especially as the Jubilee Line is ATO.
I didn't know that other subways did this. Of course, this would piss of the guy I saw last week that for some reason was bouncing his head off every car (I am NOT kidding about this!!), like it was a game. He got a standing "o" by his fellow ragged fellows. The rest of us just kinda stared to see how much of his head would be ripped off.
I guess Selkirk needs a new job (:-p)
It's not the NEWER parts. Stations with platform doors were built between 1961 and 1973. After this time platform doors were recognized as an unfortunate experiment and decided never be built in future.
Demerits of platform doors:
1) Inability to lengthen platforms. Line 2 in St.Petersburg were built in 1961 for 6-car trains, that is now not enough. But because of presence of several platform-doored stations it's impossible to increase the platforms length for 8 cars as it was done on Line 1.
2) Decreased speed due to necesserity to stop the train doors directly near platform doors. Precise stopping the train takes more time then usual and causes another problem --
3) Inability to run more than 20 trains per hour.
Kotiara: It's not the NEWER parts. Stations with platform doors were built between 1961 and 1973. After this time platform doors were recognized as an unfortunate experiment and decided never be built in future
Thank you for that interesting information - I wish I'd known that there was someone on this board with detailed knowledge of the St petersburg system before I went!
In order for platform doors to work properly, the following have to be taken into consideration:
1. Door position. All rolling stock to be used must have uniformly spaced doors for alignment with the platform doors.
2. Computer controlled braking. Because of the need to align the train with the platform doors, some sort of computer controlled braking will be necessary to insure the train will stop at the right place while entering the station aggressively enough to keep to a schedule. If it were left up to a T/O to manually spot the train within a couple of inches of a mark at every station it would make the job quite stressful, and at least would end up with many T/Os crawling into stations to be sure they did not overshoot the mark. If not complete ATO, the system would require that the T/O deliver the train to some point, possibly the entrance to the station within a 10 mph speed range, (i.e. between 20-30 mph) and then the computer would through continuous feedback and adjustment of the brakes bring the train to a smooth aligned stop. (Those old enough to remember controller operated elevators can attest to how slow it was to have all but the most experienced operators align the elevator car with the floor level.)
3. Training the passengers. Now there will be two sets of doors that have to be closed instead of one at each entrance to the train. The positive effect will be that passengers holding the platform doors but seeing the train doors closing will let go, and those holding train doors and seeing platform doors close, will also give up, but since it will be difficult for a C/R or CCTV to see both sets of doors, recycling for obstructions will have to be automatic and done only for the door(s) affected.
Because of these requirements, it is unlikely that present systems will be upgraded because the cost benefit analysis does not support spending the money. New systems with more automation built into them (horizontal elevators) will be candidates for platform doors though.
Tom
Besides, why would you build the tolerances so tight that being 1 foot off one way or the other would really affect the system? If an R36WF is some 15 or 17 feet between door centers, and the doors are 4 feet wide then you could have 6 foot, possibly as high as 10 feet if done correctly, openings to allow easier loading. Of course this would need to be tuned, so that the large platform doors wouldn't need to travel a huge distance to meet the train doors.
Of course NY really wouldn't work for Platform Doors. They just run too slipshod an operation to really even have the possibility of using them in the next 30 years or so, assuming that every car after the R142s are built just like the R142s, and thats only for the IRT! The Rolling stock in New York is a mess, if it was 40 some years ago, then maybe we could do it, what with the R-12 through R-36 being relatively similar (right?), but we'd have to get rid of the older stuff faster.
Really I was more interested in why fairly new systems in America running homogenous equipment have neglected the Platform Door. Perhaps you, or some of the other SC subtalkers can provide some info as to why LAMTA didn't go for Platform doors on the Red Line, even though they were invented, relatively proven, and they were building a new line from scrath with completely homogenous equipment. Also, why don't Miami, BART, and MARTA run platform door trains, at least in the subway (if they have one)?
The usual reason — Money, or rather the lack of it. The Red Line was designed in the ‘70s, and by the time it was built had tremendous cost overruns, and strong opposition at all times. The automation necessary for platform doors is not built into the system. The L.A. system does not even use any type of CCTV. The T/O has to lean out of his window to look back along the train when he closes the doors, and has to get up and cross the cab and look out of that window at the one station which is on the other side of the train. It is far from a state of the art system.
Tom
Oh yes, Hong Kong MTR is the first system to place platform doors while operating normally. Even if a station is partially unbarred and barred with platform screen doors, the train could still stop normally with the doors open. Although the operating system on MTR is more advanced, i.e. use SACEM as in BART, DC Metro, door aligning is still a problem. The solution is to provide an allowance such that even the train does not stop properly, passengers still could alight without hinderence.
....although I really want to be in San Diego...
Tracks along the ocean, trolleys, and perfect weather all year long.
Oh well, better jump back on the 5, back to LA...
Oh, that's right, I'm only going to be in LA in spirit on Saturday...
Actually, I just found the intermediate Solona Beach photo before the grade crossing elimination and depression of the tracks, but after Coaster was running. I'm having fun with this, I haven't looked at these photos in years!
True, but sometimes the best railfanning is in the car, but actually 5 is a bad choice, 1 is obviously better. You can't take photos of the train and stations while you are on the train, but I know what you mean.
Anyway, when you say Solana Beach did you mean this:
Or this:
What a difference a few years make.....
Oh yeah, and we can't forget Del Mar (I kind of think of that whole area as the "San Diego" area...
Are they doing anything with the old Del Mar station?
Not that I'm aware of. It was there when I last passed through. Nice shots of the San Diegan, oops, I meant Surfliner. I'm looking forward to Saturday's Bob & Fred show. Incidentally, Los Angeles Union Station is really enhanced now with catenary over two tracks.
I live at MP 177.4 on the Surf Line.
I guess you were lucky to have picked one of the 340 great weather days we have every year each time you chose to rail fan. Yeah, it's tough having to live here all year round, but somebody has to do it. :-)
Tom
There, just burst your bubble and infiltrated your posts with an East Coast comment :)
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The participants, from left to right: Salaam Allah, Brighton Exp Bob, Steve Hoskins, George Foelschow, Old Tom, and Sea Beach Fred.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Remember, if we hadn't loaded so much debt onto the transit system in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan, we could have funded a large part of the SAS ourselves.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The timers restrict speed well below safe operation of brakes, so obviously it's something else.....
Could it be that the train travelling at high speed isn't good for the bridge? likely culprit......
The brakes are designed to stop the train at 45mph speeds. Those trains go nowhere near that fast. Even a 35 GT would be more appropriate for slowing the trains (with a 25 GT at the portals).
That is a misleading statement. The safe speed depends on
both the braking rate and the control length distance of
the signals in that area. You want higher speeds? Then give
up train density.
--Mark
ORDERS/ODORS
Peace,
ANDEE
how do you get from 6th ave to whitehall?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Speaking of running express, when the SB 6 (and late night 4) runs express from 14th to BB, are GO transfers distributed and accepted at Bleecker NB and at Broadway-Laf, or is that transfer effectively unavailable?
From Queens Plaza:
-down 53 St tunnel to 5 Av/Madison
-down 6 Ave Line to Jay Street
-down Crosstown Line to Church Ave
-down Culver Line to Ave X
-thru CI Yard, loop tracks, out to the (N) tracks
-down the Sea Beach Exp trax to 59 St/4 Av
(Rejoin route @ 59 St).
Man would that be a sweet ride! Too bad they aren't really doing this. They just botched the service advisory, as usual. Imagine an R46 R train on the Sea Beach Express!
I don't think Fred would like that, though. Especially when the N gets held at 8th Avenue so the R can cross in front of it...imagine the swearing you would hear if you were on that N...
What's botched about it?
Only about 1000 or so "Weekend Service Changes" posters in every subway station that state that "R trains run via the V from Queens Plaza to Whitehall St." The average subway rider (especially weekend tourists) doesn't know there isn't a track connection between the V line and Whitehall St. The average subway rider will also go by these posters because they are more convenient (they're everywhere!) than looking them up on the website. I just hope the C/R's make the appropriate announcements at 34/6, or else there will be many steamed passengers at 2nd Avenue wanting to get to Lower Manhattan.
They usually post the more detailed PDF file as the poster in the subways.
The detailed PDF is correct. It's just the summary 2-liner on the web page that's wrong.
Incidentally, the last time this GO ran, there was at least one R-32 consist on the quasi-V.
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If we had a nickle for every new transit proposal.....
Indiana okays high-speed rail bill
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Indiana
Illinois governor proposes $37 million for rail
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Illinois
Florida legislature derails governor’s plan
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Florida
Five rail bills on Congress’ tables
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Five
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I hope that damned trucking outfit has to pony up for all the damages it caused.
P-42 locomotive No. 199; baggage-mail 1726; crew dorm 2518, Pine Shore (ex 2892, 2732, ATSF 1643); Viewliner sleeper 62011, Gulf View; Viewliner sleeper 62013, Harvest View; diner 8519; lounge 28000, Miami Club; and Amfleet II coaches 25085, 25047, 25078, 25075.
Heavy damage was reported on the locomotive and rear end of Viewliner 62011, and to the vestibule of 62013.
Three days later, Amtrak sources reported No. 91’s total wreck damage estimates in dollars to be $860,000.
The entire consist of the Silver Star was rerailed on May 5, and was to be cleared for movement by May 9 or 10. Engine 138 was removed from Train 97 of May 6 and was assigned to haul the “hospital train” to Sanford, Fla.
Damage estimates: Eng. 199, $350,000; 1726, $15,000; 2518, $100,000; 62011, $125,000; 62013, $125,000; 8519, $30,000; 28000, $30,000; 25047, $25,000; 25085, $20,000; 25078, $20,000; 25075, $20,000.
It took a little more than five hours to get all the equipment back onto the iron. P-42 locomotive 199 was rerailed at 1:50 p.m. The first car to be put back on the track was 25075 at 12:15 p.m., and the last was 8519 at 6:30 p.m.
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Why won't this god dammed Mag-Lev crap die! It's just a giant waste of tax money that will never transport a single person.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#FRA
On one hand they finally found a corridor that Maglev can run down that isn't either a fully served area or an area MUCH better served by LRT, Subway or Monorail. If this works it'd give maglev a true chance to show itself, running 300mph across the desert, could really show it's potential to shut down the airline shuttles. LA-LV needs something, anything, and this is just as well, outside the two metropolitan areas there are few Nimbys to contend with, especially compared to the NEC, and with the right route engineering 300mph could be sustained for lots of the run. It'd be cool if it left the LA basin via Cajon Pass, trains moving at 10-30 mph being and cars and trucks doing 45-70 mph being passed by maglevs doing 250-300mph!
On the other hand, it's the FRA and they're messing with Maglev! Pretty soon they'll be demanding 150ton trains with nobody in the first or last car, on the off chance that the maglev train, which completely surrounds the guideway, jumps the track and smacks into a 200 ton freight loco. Oh, and they'll want homeballs for all track side signals.
If there ever was a damn useless proposal, this had to be it.
-Robert KIng
The flight time is right under an hour.
$59-$88 each way, and they make a profit on the service.
Now, Los Angeles and Las Vagas need to do a better job connecting the airports to the rest of the city.
I love rail transit, but it really can't economicly comptete between cities, except where a high-speed infrastructure has already been built, and even then the door-to-door time just barely equals airlines.
And besides, airlines don't make money, they are responsible for a pitance of the cost required to run an airport, AND they recieve massive government bailouts while our passenger rail atrophies under the pressure of underfunding and oppresive regulations. Airlines are hugely subsidized, just like automobiles, trucking and busse are, none of them want to admit it. Make both routes cover 100% of ALL costs at the farebox (such as it is), and watch the Air price skyrocket while the maglev's cost remains more constant. Assuming that the Maglev utilized the Halbach Array permanent magnet system as opposed to a superconducting guideway, and a routing that lead it down the median of I-15, allowing dirt cheap construction, then the initial costs would be quite low, allowing for lower fares for the same return on investment. This thing could make money, if done properly.
Maybe it's a Republican consipracy to put together a project that could soak up so much in federal funds there's nothing left for the SAS.
In any case, if you think MagLev technology is expensive, just think how much it would cost to build a ROW from downtown LA to San Bernardino where the desert starts. That would dwarf the actual train-related costs.
Go me thinking. Let's say the government was willing to buy and tear down buildings for transit the way it did for highways. Which would be cheaper, a subway under a street, or an embankment train like the Brighton Line? In Manhattan, the answer is the subway, because the buildings are so expensive. But in LA?
Hmmm, considering that referendum LA passed a few years ago prohibiting city money to be spent on, specifically, new subways, an embankment would also be a loophole in that silly law.
Mark
A lot less than tunneling, but the politics would go on for years.
But an ROW already exsists, thanks to the I-10 running nearly straight out from Downtown LA to San Bernardino, why not just build atop that? Maglev, by all rights, should have more in common with Monorail than conventional HSR ROWs, it can be placed in areas that usually wouldn't see a HSR or even LRT train, but a Monorail Maglev could be placed right along, either atop the median, off to one side or another, or straddling the outside of the freeway. The freeway's frequent turns and grades might require a slowdown of the trains, but hopefully you'd make that up once out in the desert, doing 250-300mph.
Instead of a maglev, it seems that a hybrid system that uses linear propulsion, but rolls on old fashioned wheels and rails, might be a more practical technology. Such hybrid systems are already found on fancy roller coasters.
Mark
The array consists of a guideway with copper loops shorted together to form two copper coil rails. The train contains rare earth magnets with their pole offset 90 degrees from the previous, this has found to have the effect of virtually canceling the magnetic field on one side of the array while making it even stronger on the other.
The lift force for the maglev would come from it's very forward motion. As the Array mounted on the train travels over the copper coils it would generate a magnetic field either repelling (as in the case of an ElectroDynamic Maglev - EDS) or attracting (as in the case of an ElectroMagnetic Maglev - EMS) the train. Thus the energy to lift the maglev train would be bled from the forward kinetic energy of the train. At zero MPH the array would generate zero lift, this would require wheels on which to roll while still moving too slowly to generate enough lift. At some point the monorail would travel fast enough forward that it would create enough of a magnetic field to take off from the track and become a maglev. Thus far most people seem to think that a maglev train will take off at around 5-10 mph depending upon the size of the arrays, coil and so on.
With a Halbach Array, the friction associated with the Electrodynamic forces on the train by the maglev array would actually decrease with speed. This is of course the opposite what steel-wheel on steel-rail friction does, and means that, ignoring the atmosphere, the most efficient trains would run the fastest.
The maglev would need some sort of external power, but all maglevs require separate lift/power components. For a Halbach Array maglev anything from LIMs to straight Jets could be used. One way to save on an extended ROW over a relatively infrastructure poor area would be to use a small turbofan, perhaps like the GE TF34 found in the A-10 Warthog and the S-3 Viking (the plane that landed Dubya on his carrier) to power the maglev out over that stretch of track. Because a Halbach Array maglev's track need not be powered so long as the train itself is powered somehow the somewhat large capitol costs that might be associated with the maintaining of LIMs the length of the line could be saved, albeit at the cost of surrendering to the whims of the oil market. As the train approaches a town LIMs could resume again when it reaches a real power grid, here it could change over from gas turbine to LIM power, keeping it somewhat neighbor friendly.
Turns out that General Atomics is working on a variety of Halbach Array using monorails both of the EDS and EMS types, however they're working on garbage Urban Peoplemover projects like Pittsburg's airport, and which are a complete waste of Maglev's potential. Here's hoping for good luck for the line, they'll most likely need it.
More Halbach Array maglev stuff:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPMag.html
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPMagIntro.html
Screen http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html
At this point the US, which at one time lead the way in High Speed and Electrified trackage, is sliding further and further from our one-time greatness. At one time we had 6300 track miles of electrified railroad lines, 20% of the world electrified lines in 1938. Yet we backed off, no other electrification has really been done since then, other than Amtrak's Boston extention, and a few pitiful extentions to the New York area commuter railroads. And all the while we lost the Virginian and MILW electrifications, some 200 and 900 route mile respectively, not to mention huge chunks of the Pennsy's catenary where Black or Blue and Grey diesels now roam under the empty arms of the catenary uprights. Keep in mind that the Metroliner WAS the worlds fastest train when it ran in the late '60s. When the French were still trying to figure out whether TGV would be Gas Turbine or Electric and when Japan was still tolling around at 125 in their Shinkansens, we had a 160mph train that worked (not with the best maitenance record, but I'm willing to bet pieces of it never flew off at speed).
Today our rail lines are but a shadow of their former selves, we have a POS 'High Speed' train that can't even reach what the Europeans do in regular passenger service during non-revenue testing, other than a few coal carriers in the west all freight is pulled by diesel, despite the massive savings that could be had by using something like an E60CF, GM6C or GM10B.
We failed, plain and simple, to provide an adequate right of way for our trains, and thus we basically lost them. We're trying to play catch up with the Japanese and Europeans now that we see what they have done and how well it works. But we're only trying to emulate them at where they were maybe 5 years ago, if we want to really get a HSR system that is truely world class then we must look where they will be looking in 5 years, Maglev. Germany is starting to talk about a Hamburg-Berlin Transrapid system again, Japan is looking at an MLX01 clone running along side the Shinkansens from Osaka to Tokyo, and Shanghai already has it's 240 mph airport-city link thanks to Transrapid.
We need a working Maglev system to get back in the running for a world class rail system, merely trying to make the 'American TGV' won't cut it anymore. By the time we build our 186mph train it will be 10 years in the future, which means that we'll be where Europe was 20 years ago (as measured from 2003, not 2013). Simply going through the natural progression from catenary to medium HSR to full 220mph HSR (by which time it'd be cheaper just to have built a superconducting maglev right off the bat).
Besides, since the FRA basically forbids any rational, workable HSR system from connecting to exsisting rail systems, the number one argument against maglev, it's lack of interconnectivity, is basically null and void. If you're going to have to build a brand new terminal for the HSR trains, as well as a completely exclusive ROW and such, you might as well just go and build a maglev, you'll get a better ride quality and improved efficiency while having the option of higher speeds in the future. Lets face it, there is only so fast you can spin a steel wheel before it starts to fatigue badly from the centripetal acceleration.
Now I have offered a cheaper, safer, and just generally better way to do a maglev. I also have offered what I feel to be semi-rational argument for a maglev, similar to arguments I hear for TGV-style trains in the US. Now, unless you have some argument other than the rather underwhelming "Monorails and maglev are stupid" argument, please feel free to debunk me and my proposal.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Parsons
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Now if only they could electrify more lines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Chicago
I know they're not talking about it, Daleys too nuts with his O'hare-Loop link (Blue Line anyone?) to try something that would make sense, but hypothetically:
Would it be better for the Electric lines to be upgraded from 1500vdc to 11 or 25Kvac before an extention of the electrification were attempted?
Or is it better to try and make the new system 1500 kvdc, even though it could lead to two completely different systems if nationwide electrification were attempted.
OR, would it better to make two different systems, high voltage DC for the exsisting lines, high voltage AC for the others?
Wrong. The South Shore Line operates over the same trackage as the IC for quite a ways coming south from Randolph Street, which means that if the IC electrification system were changed the South Shore's would have to be changed as well. NICTD has plenty of other problems to spend their money on, including a shortage of rolling stock and a slowly decaying infrastructure (much of which dates back about 75 years), and I think they would subscribe to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" theory on this one.
Frank Hicks
Aurora, not Auroura.
Heritage Coridor runs 3 trains weekdays between Union Station and Joliet, during the morning and evening rush periods.
Electrification would be nice, but will never realistically happen. New equipment, new high-level platforms, and Cantenary that didn't interfear with the heavy volume of freight trains. These 3 strikes together equal a big NO from Metra and the BNSF which owns the line.
The IC line is electrified because it was a really long time ago when the city pressured it to because its STEAM trains were polluting the lakefront. Plus it runs on a dedicated right-of-way that is seperate from frieght and Amtrak operations. Amtrak has its own low level platform station at Homewood seperate from the High-level Metra station.
I thought Amtrak trains could use high or low level platforms. They share high platforms with Metro-North in NYC area, don't they??? I realize Amtrak goes to Union Station and Metra to Randolph. But you would think installing a switch south of McCormick place and South of Homewood would solve this problem. Then Amtrak and Metra could share a high-level platform. Less station to Maintane and less confusing for passenger with 1 station instead of 2.
Doesn't Amtrak share high level platforms with Metro-North on the Hudson Line?? I will be riding to NYC from Chicago this August on Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited and was looking at some pictures online. It appeared that they shared high platforms at some stations. Not to mention, isn't Penn Station all high level platforms??
I thought that all Amtrak, long distance, trains use "Superliners"?? Am I wrong, or is there another type of equipment they use or is there actually low platforms for them at Penn and the Metro North Stations??
The Superliners DO work out of Washington, DC on the Capitol Limited, and there are a couple platforms at DC Union Sattion that are still low-platformed. The platforms normally used by the NEC (Northeast Corridor) services are all high platforms.
Out in the west, we have the California Amtrak cars, and the Pacific Surfliner cars (basically,both are the same carbody shells) and these can work only at low platforms. The Talgo equipment in the Pacific Northwest is the same, low platforms only. The only high platforms we see out here are on the subway systems in Los Angeles and San Francisco....nothing on "mainline" railroads.
Just a few ALP-46s would be it, along with the wires. Which can clear those trendy doublestacks anyway. Though 25kv would require a bit more - 12.5kv might be a better choice.
The #1 problem with Metra is it's primarrily diesel, which means it's slow. That limits ridership - despite being a huge system, it's ridership is pretty low.
A one for one swap of the existing stuff for ALP-46s would boost system speeds, make the system quieter, elimanate the fumigating of passengers, and attract higher ridership.
I find it funny that Metra needs double and even triple tracking on their system, whereas the LIRR moves more traffic on two tracks through Mineola than probbably an stretch on Metra, the much flaunted raceway included.
The slowest Metra Line is the Electric Line NOT, any of the diesel lines. The Electric line is limited to 65 mph max, whereas its diesel lines run 70-79 MPH max speed limits. Similarly, most express trains on the BNSF line run non-stop to Downers Grove Main St. or Naperville, zones E & F. On the Electric they make 2 stops downtown and one in Hyde Park, Zone B, before running express to zones D, E, or F.
ALso, Metra has very high ridership for the size of its system. Nothing compares to NYC, but try comparing Metra to say LA's Metro-Link. The Systems are about the same size, but Metro-link doesn't get anywhere near the ridership that Metra does. I believe its like 35,000 weekday riders compared to 250,000 weekday riders.
The high level platforms if thats what you mean, don't really save that much time. Trains dwell almost the same time on the BNSF line as they do on the Electric line. The only line that would really benefit from all high platforms is the South Shore. It has a mix of high and low level platforms and takes forever at the low stations which are the majority of them. This is only because the trains are made for both types and at all low stations people can only exit from 1/2 of the doors and the stairs have to be adjusted twice before a train can depart a station.
But on Metra's diesel lines the trains are made for low platforms and no adjustments are made and all doors open.
This is not NYC or Philadelphia, where catenary has been in place since the early 1900's.
Most of the METRA commuter lines are owned by "freight" railways. Thus, they have to accomodate the "high & wide" freight cars.
Try selling electrification to BNSF and Union Pacific - which one is going to bite first?
They are already pissed that they must expidite passenger trains in the rush hours - do you think that either road will allow overhead catenary be strung over their tracks?
I don't think so!
As for the IC - it electrified in 1926. This was a mandate from the City of Chicago because of the close proximity to the lakefront. Remember the Daniel Burnham philosphy was still very much in play.
Otherwise, there would be NO electrication in Chicago except for the North Shore (abandoned 1963), the CA&E (cut back from Chicago in 1953 and abandoned in 1957 - passenger service I mean), and the South Shore, which operates today, but only because it uses the ex-ICRR electrified mainline from 115th St/Kensington to Randolph Street.
METRA getting $51 million, is a drop in the bucket to CTA's over $400 for the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line and the undetermined amount for the rehabbing of the Brown Line to allow 8-car trains.
However, the Federal handouts will come to and end soon since King Richard pulled his "at the dark of night closing of Meigs Field". The Republican lead Congress will not allow him to get away with that stupid move.
Jim K.
Chicago
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Now if only they could electrify more lines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Houston
Currently the Metropolitan Transit Authority of Harris county gets its money from a 1% sales task. In order to keep Houston from building a monorail system 12 years ago, the former Mayor(who controls the Metro board of Directors) made Metro give 25% of the sales tax back to its member cities and the county to use for roads. In reality the other governments cut their road spending by the same amount, and spent the money on things like police and parks.
Now, the current board of directors (controlled by a pro-rail mayor) wants to take back the 25% of the 1% sales tax and use it to build a 45 mile light-rail system. They claim the money will also be used for bus upgrades and more HOV lanes, but the vast majority is for rail projects. Houston and Metro-area voters would have to approve the plan in an election this fall.
Several of the major candidates in the next election of Houston Mayor (the current mayor cannot run due to term limits) are against the rail plan. Several mayors of outlying cities that are part of Metro are against it. A local republican state representative tried to pass a law requiring Metro to spend 25% of its money on roads. The local Republican US representative in the transportation committee has said he does not like the plan, and says each individual component should be voted on separately.
Metro is close to opening an small, 7 mile light rail line built entirely with local money, because House Majority Whip Tom Delay, from suburban Sugarland, personally blocked any federal money from being used for light rail in Houston. He claimed he blocked it because there had not been an election for the project.
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I have a solution, don't build it, its a waste.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Minnesotans
(This is not my personal viewpoint)
If they want a streetcar system they should build one. Not some half assed subway replacement.
I agree with you that many cities that are jumping on the light rail bandwagon really need heavy subways. Houston, Denver, and Dallas come to mind most immediately. But it seems to me that light rail is serving a purpose and letting cities sample the benefits of rail transit, without the massive financial commitment of a heavy subway. So if in 20 years the light rail is replaced with a heavy subway, that's better in my own opinion than a subway never getting built at all...which may be the outcome if light rail hadn't allowed the city to experience the value of rail transit in the first place.
What I think would be a wise idea is for U.S. cities building light rail systems to do is to build them on the European "premetro" model, where the system is designed for easy upgrade to heavy rail if it becomes necessary in the future.
Mark
I feel that the US needs some credit for the "pre-metro" concept too - the Green line in Boston, the Muni Metro in San Francisco and even the Newark City Subway (as originally conceived) really are pre-metros, aren't they, with streetcars/LRVs going into a tunnel in the central areas of cities while taking to the streets in the outer areas?
There is the reverse case. Sometimes disused or underused railway RoW is avilable but it needs a tunnel through the city centre. In the UK, in Newcastle upon Tyne the capital to build the tunnel was found and there is now a proper metro there. But in Manchester, and in Croydon (south London), limited stretches of on-street running in the central area link between longish runs on private RoW to provide a good service overall - not as fast as a real subway, but a lot better than buses. Similar situations exist in Denver and San Diego. It does need careful planning to prevent the on-street sections getting stuck in congestion with the cars, but this can be successful. I'm waiting to see how it works ut in my former home town of Nottingham, UK, when their LRT system opens later this year.
However, in this new light rail craze they are building "systems" that consist of a single line and you still don't see the sort of terminal infrastructure needed to support heavy volumes.
If they want a streetcar system they should build one. Not some half assed subway replacement."
The best way not to waste any money on rapid transit is never to build any rapid transit systems. I stick by my view that a real light-rail system that gets built, and is useful, is preferable to an ideal subway system like the SAS that never gets built.
If any of the LRT systems being built nowadays are so successful that in twenty years' time the traffic justifies replacement by a real subway, well, that is fine -- the twenty years' use will have justified the more modest expense on the LRT. But if the capital to build the subway is still not forthcoming at that time, the public will still have some (non-ideal) rapid transit service, rather than none.
Let's be REAL here - New York City *has* the population density to justify "heavy rail" (and anything less would be ... well ... "republican" in its stupidity and "duh factor") ... but for smaller cities who appear on the Neilsen charts as "ADI's" ... light rail *IS* the ticket ... frankly, I'm STILL surprised that for "crosstown transit" New York City has never gone for monorails or OTHER forms of "light rail" ... the DENSITY of NYC would at LEAST support a prudent factor for monorails or at least trolleys (whoops, MEANT "light rail") for CROSSTOWNS ...
But for the TOP TEN cities in the nation, Heavy rail is a required reality ... for anything LESS than "top ten" then LRV's, Monorails and even buses should be sufficient. The MAJOR factor in the success of "heavy rail" comes down to DENSITY and number of people who would USe it ... and FEW cities really qualify. Don't get me wrong, I'd *LOVE* to have a subway stop in Voorheesville, NY that WENT somewhere, but I'd be INSANE to allow a politician to build one *HERE* ... unless of course, *I* was the appointed motorman for *THE* train. *THEN* I'd vote for it. :)
I also see light rail a possible way to making heavy rail feasible. I think to get population density, there has to be good transit. Otherwise. parking lots dominate. So light rail can help revitalize and densify city centers. If it's wildly successful, then maybe heavy rail will someday be feasible.
Mark
HELL! It'd be like the BRT all OVER again! And what subtalker COULDN'T get into "traction" from Streetcars to CONVERTIBLES to the beach? But heavy rail DOES have its place - and NYC and only a DAMNED FEW other places can really justify the "load" ...
Now if only growing cities had the SENSE to build HEAVY rail TRUNK lines and fill in the "crosstowns" properly as feeders to all that. NYC is NOT one of them ... NYC *should* consider MONORAILS one "flight up from street level" as the natural replacement for bus routes jammed in gridlock west to east ...
AHA!
Please forgive me in my business to not keep up with this thread from where I've just left it - time is precious to me - I make my living selling software and spend my time answering emails from customers who did dumb things ... so if I lose track of this thread and don't kick in any further, I beg all to forgive me if anyone espects me to comment and doesn't get a reply. I'll TRY to keep up with it, but can't promise a reply ...
But discuss ... thuis surely makes a more noteworthy subtak than actually expecting our political lawgivers to "do the right thing." :)
Mark
PHUCK THE GOP! We voted for the phuckers and they STILL PHUCK US!!!!!!!
But yeah, makes EMINENT sense ... but the GOP *STILL* phucks us all. With number 50 grit. :(
And we VOTED for the pricks! REPEATEDLY! :(
Nothing to do with cows, I presume.
This is a Kinki-Sharyo...tres belle! :-P
Cities need to start building subways, even if (like in Toronto's case) they only run 4-5 miles and have a handful of stations. Once you start the system you can keep expanding it as money becomes available.
Remember what light rail is:
"a tram is just an incredibly costly bendy bus on an incredibly costly dedicated track to which it has dangerously low adhesion and which prevents it passing, diverting or being passed"
- The Times, February 08, 2003
Build more AEC Routemasters!
The traffic south of Minneapolis is terrible. I think a lot of people will get out of their cars and use the light rail.
On the other hand, we can look at SEPTA's routes 100, 101, and 102. These provide good transit in the suburban areas past the Market-Frankford line's 69th street terminal where population density doesn't necessarily warrant heavy subway service. This is an example not only of a good niche for light rail, but also of how light and heavy rail can be productively integrated. (I do think an extension of the MFL to Broomall or maybe a park-and-ride where Westchester Pike meets I-476 might be warranted, but the areas that routes 100, 101, and 102 go I think are served well by light rail.)
I guess my point is that every mode has it's place, and sometimes we pick the right mode, and sometimes we don't.
Mark
From what I can recall of Phoenix (I was there for a week last August), major employment centers appeared to be quite dispersed. North Scottsdale seemed to have almost as many office buildings as downtown Phoenix. Light rail can be more appropriate than heavy commuter rail for that type of situation.
BRT is even better, since buses from various origins and destinations can use an express busway for part of their trip. Not so for rail.
Rail only pays is you have at least 200,000 in a concentrated area. Only a handful of U.S. cities have this, and all but LA have rail. Of course, it's hard to achieve that without rail.
BRT busways with exclusive ROWs can be quickly converted to rail if the land use changes around them to support it. That's what happened in Ottawa.
What about Metrolink?
AFAIK, Ottawa's Transitway hasn't converted to LRV or heavy rail. The light rail line (O-Train) that just opened uses Canadian Pacific trackage. It doesn't connect to downtown yet, so the line is lightly used.
I've used Ottawa's Transitway, and it's a great system. Some of the underground bus stops look like subway stations. It's BusTalk heaven and Subtalk hell.
*********************************************************************
Instead of building their cars from Paper Mache they are switching to wallboard and instead of getting their electrical parts from a junkyard they will go to second hand stores.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Bombardier
*********************************************************************
Note that by ports they mean North Jersey Ports. I guess that people forgot that Camden desperately needs to upgrade its port rail facilities from nothing to anything.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#New
*********************************************************************
The investigation showed that the engineer had nothing to do with the design of the cheap piece of shit lightweight ICE train.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Engineers
*********************************************************************
Given the state of european locomotive construction I'm surprised the train wasn't destroyed. I guess that the busses are built so light themselves to make the Eurocrap stock more than a match for them.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Dozens
Of course that bus could have been lighter than an American counterpart, just engineered to take the force and not kill everyone, same for the locomotive.
Build Smarter, Not Heavier
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2414503391&category=6737
(I didn't see this on here...if it was and I missed it, please forgive me!)
Chip
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
That Friday, I drove from the Kennedy Expressway and enjoyed watching the Blue Line O'Hare Branch L trains and the Loop skyline. Then heading south on the Dan Ryan, I saw the Red Line trains before heading to the Indiana Skyway. I Paralleled the South Shore Railroad for many miles without seeing trains.
I arrived in a downtown Cleveland hotel that night, and walked to Public Square the next morning and rode the entire Red, Blue, and Green lines. I enjoyed watching the nice big homes in Shaker Heights along Shaker and Van Aken Blvds. On the Red Line (except for the area around East Cleveland and University Square), I was surprised to see a lack of housing and apartment developments around the stations.
Later on Saturday evening, I drove to Pittsburgh and parked my car at Washington Square Station. I railfanned the LRT down to the end of the line at Library. I loved the interurban feel, and the flag stops that are behind home backyards and at the enterances to apartments. Because I was running out of time, I did not have an opportunity to take the train into downtown Pittsburgh. Energized on Red Bull, I reached the motel in Fort Washington at 1:00 a.m. (outside Philly). The next morning, I parked my car at the Fort Washington station, and rode the R5 to 30th Street Station and back.
I arrived at my new apartment near White Plains later, and crashed out of exhaustion. The next day, I parked my car at Purdys, and rode the Metro-North to GCT and back.
Now living in the East Coast, I look forward to railfanning in Boston, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. I also plan to drive to Buffalo and ride its LRT, then head to Toronto and railfan on my next vacation.
Fully Equipped with FRA Part 223 Glazing When Built New? (I have seen this on most passenger railcars on the LIRR and MNCR that I have rode, and I imagine that every passenger railroad has these stickers in their cars.) Thanks in advance.
Adam (ENY Nova 5205)
Part 223 glazing is nothing really that fancy. It has to shatter in certain ways and withstand certain forces. These include a .22 long bullet and various sizes of pebbles moving at slower speeds. However, if a large brick or branch or cinderblock hits a cab window it will probably penitrate and injure the engineer.
Hmm, I wonder if the Hudson exit signals are to be taken out of service. They are PRR amber's.
you can read the text of 49CFR Part 223
At this point to respect this matter as an off-topic thing, please email your response in private.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We assure you, they all look alike
==========================================
I didn't find this one at an MVM or as a discard. It is on ebay!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2174423481&category=4152
That is total B.S. and they know it!
As a railfan, I must condemn the message on that card.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Every subway car is special and unique in its own way. Why else would we have hundreds of photos on this site! Specifically, take the example of some R-42 cars that I think have different style seats than the rest of the cars. If you are like one of our fellow posters here who doesn't like the way the regular R-42 seats feel, then he may want to move to the next car to sit on better seats. And there you have it, that next car was not the same as the previous one and the person had a good reason for moving. So the 2nd part of that safety message is wrong. Note: replace R-42 with the correct car class if I got it wrong.
Speaking of R42's, I was perusing your own site when I cam over this baby...
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/R-42/PDRM1601a
Sweet! But the only thing is what that yellow diamond sticker is for?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Carry babies and strollers on stairs.
It's good for your biceps.
"Curb you dog on the street! Not on the Subway tracks."
"They Might Get Fried."
Robert
Go before you leave home.
So you don't have to go between cars.
Going your way -- the safe way
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The number of draggings reported by the press, anyway :^)
Speaking of draggings, how is it that more people aren't dragged to their deaths in Boston? There must be three inches of rubber on the doors on their RT cars. Last Sunday on the Blue Line, I saw someone get on with a mountain bike, stand it up on its hind tire, jam the thing sideways into the door rubber on the opposite side, then leave it to go sit down... you could see light between the doors!
I just wonder when the rehab starts for the Flushing platform of the complex. I have seen NO indications that rehab has started there. The BMT Broadway section, in the other hand, already has stairwells boarded up. I'd imagine those black-on-white signs' days are numbered.
If you want an all-time urine smell, go to the IRT Flushing part of the station. :) BTW, I'm wondering once they rehabilitate that part of the complex, where will they put the new elevators?
It appears that street access will be from near the newly reopened entrance on 42nd between Broadway and 7th, and a ramp will lead up to the wide passageway just east of the IRT between 42nd and 41st. The ramp and signage is visible through the cracks between the blue plywood walls west of the new escalators.
OTOH, 9 trains are generally relabeled 1 trains; skip-stop stations have longer headways during rush hours than they do most of the day on Sunday. Ridership is spread much more evenly among the 1/9 stops; there's no large peak at the end of the line. And skip-stop on the 1/9 only saves a maximum of two minutes to begin with. When I ran the numbers, I found that the average passenger loses time due to skip-stop on the 1/9.
As for express service, I don't see how it can work. The stations between 96th and 137th are much busier than the ones north of 137th, so it wouldn't make sense to give them less service. The 1/9 moves fast between stations, and the express would only bypass four stations before having to merge with the local -- figure about two minutes saved on the bypass but one minute lost on the merge, and four busy stations lose half their service in exchange. If anything, some trains should drop out at either 137th or Dyckman, allowing for more service south of 137th than is currently provided, but expeditiously emptying out trains at 137th or Dyckman then becomes the challenge.
I know there are express tracks along the route somewhere and maybe they could be put to use.
Had it not been for the 3 track/2 track/3 track arrangement and if island platforms were built then I would say the chances increase greatly but forget about it, it won't happen :-(.
Isn't Queens Plaza an underground IND station? I think you meant QueensBORO Plaza.
I know it's a lot of questions, but I appreciate any input, thanks.
R32 - Sea Beach Express
-What do crews do at terminals, do they take the same train out that they pulled in, or take a different one (like NYCS)?
they usually switch ends or change crews
-Is contolling an M1-M7 similar to that of say an R32 series car (with a separate master controller and brake control)?
no. m-1-3 have a r-68 type control
M-7's have a shift type control, like a car's transmission for the propultion
-Do all LIRR/MNRR engineers have to be qualified for diesel and electric trains? no idea
R-32
Assistant Conductors collect tickets, and make announcements and occasionally operate doors when asked to by the brakeman/Conductor. the Conductor operates the doors, is QUALIFIED on Physical Characteristics as required by FRA, and also operates doors. he/she also deals with any problems by getting down on the roadbed. he communticates with RTC(Railway traffic control) and he communicates with engineers about how many cars he will use, and he is the BOSS of the train.
one crew i know in Metro North(because i work there)
he reports at 530. hangs in Engineer crew room after signing in. gets on the train around 5:55 and takes out the 6:10 Poughkeepsie. arriving at Poughkeepsie by 7:40 or so, because it is express, and Cortlandt is its first stop. anyways he leaves Poughkeepsie around 830 or so. returning to GCT by 10:18. the equipment returns to poughkeepsie as the 1102 while he goes to LUNCH. he then takes out the 11:20 Croton harmon local morris heights first stop. all stops to harmon arriving by 12:15. depart harmon by 12:20. secure the train and he clears by 1am. Days off FRIDAY SATURDAY
now this is a subway motorman style timetable. My uncle does it daily M-F days off sat and sun. his timetable has him running the R train.
he reports to city hall yard by around 300pm. departs yard wrong railing uptown into the downtown canal street. some pullman(Motorman) brings him down to whitehall middle track and gets off. my uncle then sits in whitehall till 419 when he becomes a R local to continental av till queens. arriving 5:15, someone boards his trains tailcar, and helps him relay, as train arrives in manhattan bound R platform, he gets off, and goes to lunch from 520-6pm. take out 606 R to 95th street. arriving at 95th street by 736. hang out till 755. take out the 759 R train arriving back to continental by 925. take train to jamaica yard and layup. clear by around 1020. i would LOVE a schedule like that once i qualify as a Train operator once i pass the exam, but my uncle has a 1989 senority that cant be beat almost.
TIA.
(Sorry, I can't answer your questions, though.)
Mark
Yes it does.
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/mbta-crmap.html
Sorta.
There is a standard LIRR-style third rail providing 750VDC.
The reaction rail is provided between the traction rails for the LIM system to operate, but there is no requirement that trains running on the AirTrain track use linear-induction technology. Plain vanilla electric traction propulsion would work just fine. So would a light diesel.
Mark
avid
Linear induction systems require a very stiff track modulus otherwise
the air gap becomes uncontrollable.
-Robert King
The signalling system being used is a moving-block form of Alcaltel's SELTRAC. It's a CBTC-based system that's been deployed elsewhere.
Mark
Avid
Propulsion Inverters: 2 IGBT inverters per car
Service braking regenerative dynamic, supplemented by electro-hydraulic disc brake system
Steel underframe with painted aluminum roof, sidewalls and bulkheads
Truck (bogie): Fabricated steel, forced steered
Performance and Capacity
Maximum Design Speed 110 km/h 68 mph
Seated Passengers 26 per car (plus 2 wheelchair locations per car)
Capacity per Car, Passengers with Luggage 71 standees + 26 seated = 97 total
(With standees @ 2.2 passenger/m2
(5 sq.ft./passenger), seated @ 2.3 passenger/m2
(4.75 sq.ft./passenger)
Capacity per Car, Passengers without Luggage 179 standees + 26 seated = 205 total
(With standees @ 5.4 passenger/m2
(2 sq.ft./passenger), seated @ 2.3 passenger/m2
(4.75 sq.ft./passenger)
It varies with the type of equipment and the line they operate on.
The numbered lines (1 thru 7 and 9) are ten cars long. Each car is 51'4" making the train 513'4". These cars are 8'5" wide. The only exception is the 42nd St Shuttle which operates 3 trains - 2 of them are 3 cars long, the other is 4 cars long. This is because the station platforms are these lengths.
On the lettered lines the cars also vary:
Some cars are 60' long and operate in 10 car set ups on some lines, 8 car setups in others. On certain off hours it has been known to operate some line with 4 car trains in particular the C line.
Some cars are 75' long and operate in either 6 car set ups or 8 car set ups depending on the line.
There is no mixing of 60' cars with 75' cars.
All the cars on the lettered lines (except the 42nd St Shuttle) are 10' wide.
Yes, it does have a lot to do with the volume of people but in some cases where the cars operate may depend on the weight of the car and the clearance on curves.
Adam
Then again, she was surprised when I told her the line would probably be Redbird-free before the end of the year.
If anything, I'm pretty sure anyone can hunt this set down (or more, if I missed them), considering how small the (7) line is.
The 5 has 390 assigned cars. It took about a year (or less?) to transition from all Redbird to all R-142, and that was with some distractions from the 2 and 4.
The 7 has about 250 Redbirds remaining, and each R-142 that arrives bumps a Redbird off the 7. If the R-142's come in at an average rate of one 10-car train per week (and I think they usually come in faster than that), in half a year the R-142 order will be complete and the R-36's will be history.
I wish it weren't so, but that's how things look.
Our only hope in 2004 is the 58 reserve R-33's.
Remember that overall West Side service was reduced, and the 3 was the only express. There was greater demand for the additional car and some extra cars were available.
This has not been the case for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
But passenger volume is greater here in NYC, given that NYC is higher in both population and in population density. And of course the NYC subway is quite extensive in its coverage (though there are places that don't have service and really need it) It makes for more folks needing to use the subway and warrants longer trains (but we do have a few shuttle lines that run short trains). Car and platform lengths also dictate how many cars per train can be run.
Probably if the Orange Line were ever extended to Readville or further south along the Amtrak line, it might need eight-car trains.
Wow, I didn't know Siemens was making heavy rail cars, is there a site with pics of these?
The BMT system was built to handle wider cars (10 feet wide versus 8-foot 10 for the IRT), but those stations also were originally shorter than what you see today. The first BMT stations were built to handle trains that were either 470 feet long (eight 67-foot BMT Standards, the system's original fleet) or 535 feet long (nine BMT Standards). The IND system, built mainly during the 1930s by the city, was designed to handle 600-foot long trains -- 10 60-foot cars -- and some stations were even long enough to handle 11-car trains (though no IND line runs trains that long nowadays).
Eventually, the BMT and IND systems were combined, since both lines ran 10-foot wide rail cars. About two-thirds of the BMT stations were lengthened to handle 600-foot long trains due to passenger usage, while the remaining one third of the stations -- on the J, L, M and Z lines -- remained at 480-feet (8 60-foot cars) due both to less usage than the other lines on the system and the fact that the 75-foot long railcars New York began buying in the 1970s could not make several of the sharp curves on those lines.
Given the crowding on the east side IRT lines, if the MTA could, it would probably lengthen the IRT stations again, by 50 or 100 feet to handle 11- or 12-car trains. But like the L/J/M/Z routes, the structure of those lines, especially at Grand Central and Union Square, makes adding additional length to the stations prohibatively expensive.
No big problem at Union Square: extend the downtown platform northbound and the uptown platform southbound. But GCT would be a killer.
Because it's too damn expensive, that's why!!!
Paying $4 each way just to go from one borough to another is ridiculous, actually highway robbery!!!
Do you prefer reducing the tolls to the cost of maintenance and increasing subway fares to cover the eliminated subsidy?
Or do you prefer making the bridges toll free, using taxes to maintain them, and increasing subway fares to cover the eliminated subsidy?
Or do you prefer increasing taxes to cover the transit subsidy that the bridges now provide?
All 3 are options as a substitute for the toll increase.
Option 4:
Impose a toll on all bridges and tunnels connecting to Manhattan Island in the entry direction
Eliminate all exit tolls from Manhattan and all tolls on all bridges which do not connect to Manhattan Island.
In the long term, who knows?
Scarey thought!
The MTA was created for the specific purpose of removing Robert Moses from power, he did not wish to have any part of the MTA.
Paying $2 for the same system with little improvements to go from one borough to the next is FLAT OUT ROBBERY and the steps the MTA took were way offline!
Many others disagree. I have sometimes had the misfortune to try to drive from Westchester to Manhattan as a Yankee game was letting out.
Masses of cars go down the FDR and exit at 63rd St for the Queensboro Bridge.
Or at least tolls that vary by time of day, with higher tolls when congestion tends to be high and lower tolls when congestion tends to be low. The Port Authority implemented such a system for E-ZPass users in 2001. I wonder why B&T is keeping its flat tolls. (Were variable tolls even considered?)
Inflation's a bitch.
And yes, it was satire, I have no maids
Your argument makes no sense. Why should I pay $1.50 or $2 to go from 145th and Broadway to City Hall when I used to be able to do that for only 5¢ and only one train with far more comfortable seats.
Have you noticed the new rolling stock on the L, 2, 4, 5, and 6 lines? Have you noticed the refurbished stations at places like Times Sq and 72nd/Bdwy, and the totally rebuilt station under construction at Stillwell Avenue? Where do you think the money to pay for these, and many other improvements, came from?
Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Thats when the TA will attempt for the 3rd time for the new alignment between Sutter Ave and Broadway Junction on the Manhattan bound tracks
BTW-The General order this weekend is due to the new signal system
Thank You
Once again the .pdf details are different than the service advisory.
Robert
Robert
The train was running late. I will not reveal the train's top speed here. Email me if you're interested.
R-32
R-32
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=624130
--Mark
This is a big rarity!
The Fisk Interlocking fiasco. I remember it well. M-1's with the purple 7 barely seen behind the tinted storm door glass. Also all lavatories were locked because these were the special shuttles and not the regular Port Wash trains. Confusion rained supreme with ordinary #7 riders accidentally boarding regular Port Wash trains, confused Asians not leaving the train at Main St. when annoumced on the P.A. That's why I called it a fiasco !
Bill "Newkirk"
It sounds like an interesting situation. I may try it out.
Adam
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'd love to see some M7s on the Port Washington. The seats are OK, having been replaced just a few years ago, but there's an accumulation of dirt and gunk on the window vents, and the windows themselves are filmy. Let's have an M7 unit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bases on my observations, the work is sporiadic. Very slow in terms of 3rd rail/express track replacement and the signal/interlocking replacement is ongoing forever at 111th/Willets Point/Main Street.
All in all, hectic indeed. Anyway, I look forward to that LIRR thingy next weekend. Should be a perfect photo opportunity.
R-32
I've always thought of the Port branch as a de facto, albeit more expensive, subway route and it was even more so in the past, when Corona and Elmhurst were still open.
It's a fascinating LIRR branch, urban and gritty from Penn to about Broadway, when it gets suburban; at Manhasset and Plandome it's fairly rural.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I will be there this Sunday morning, hope to see some other foamers there.
Don't forget about this. If I go out of town on Sunday then I will ride this Monday afternoon. If I stay in town on Sunday, I will ride it on Sunday.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I once rode a 6 train and the announcement thanking us for using NYC Transit several times. I think he did that to impress us. :)
I've heard the "Thank you for riding MTA..." message when the train I was on was going through a river tube.
I think its to make people feel better about their ride and relieve stress [right!]. I understand the purpose of the do not hold doors message but there's no reason to repeatedly play the "Thank you for riding with the MTA" message :-).
I've only heard the repetitive announcements when passengers do that, and basically it is to send a message.
This has been speculated about at length.
I think it must be pretty low. Looking at http://www.globalmerchant.org/, they offer to process credit card payments on behlaf of internet companies.
Their rates are:
$.30 per transaction + 2.39% of the gross
I think the MTA should be able to get a much better deal than that.
Some credit card PAY their users 1% of the gross, so the merchant charge is probably never less than that. I would make a wild guess that the MTA pays $.15 + 1.25%.
Posted on:5/16/03 5:07:07 PM
Due to a Police investigation at 42nd Street-Times Square, Downtown and train service is running local between 72nd Street and Times Square.Of late, I have noticed that minor police investigations have been short, especially in key locations like Times Sq. where you have police presence. Something like fighting passengers, homless persons, and the like will get resolved quickly.
The interesting aspect is, the lights never manage to completely turn off. They "flutter" until the train has third rail power to power them again. The HVAC and the blowers would turn off when the lights fluttered also. Is there a reason for this? Are there emergency lights on the M1A's and M3A's?
Is this a series of phase gaps or something I am not aware of?
Yeah, gaps. As in, the third rail stops running alongside the track for a bit and then shows up again a few feet later. You'll find these commonly in interlockings, where the power rails would get in the way of switching, and at grade crossings.
As for the fluttering lights you described, that's due to the motor-alternator spinning down. When an M-1 or M-3 loses third rail power, the HVAC cuts out and the emergency lights come on, but the main lights won't go out entirely until the M-A stops supplying power. If the gap is short enough, the lights won't extinguish entirely.
Mark
Well, this luck was not to hold as once again we were hammered by the Connecticut Crawl. I can't say exactly where we were delayed, but as the whole New Haven line is a giant construction site we were constantly slowing down for one thing or another. I did see an MNRR GP-35m pulling a train of dead M-2 cars, but I did not know if that contributed to our many delays. The icing on the crap cake came when for some unknown reason (probably the MNRR dispatch getting his sadistic jollies) we were platformed on track 5 at New Rochelle. That's right, we crossed all 4 mailine tracks just to pull into that 15 mph little siding on the south side of island platform at New Rochelle. Why??? I don't know, but we burned about 20 minutes waiting for an NB Amtrak train to platform accross from us and then some more for an unknown reason. While we were waiting a S/B MNRR local stopped at the platform we SHOULD have stopped at. Why we just weren't allowed to platform and then LEAVE that god dammed Metro North territory is beyond me. Sticking us in that 15 mph siding for 20 minutes just 1/2 mile from Amtrak territory only shows the contempt MNRR has for Amtrak.
Other than this the trip was pretty uneventful.
Possibly, there was only one track in service on Amtrak between MNRR connection and Pelham Bay.
Michael
Washington, DC
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Ebay Item # 3416552101
Bill "Newkirk"
8 Avenue Local
Queens Express
And is the only R32 to have signs that have this display (rest have Queens Blvd 8 Avenue). This R32 should be running on the E, if not, then maybe the F or R, but I'm pretty sure it's a "native" to the E line. I saw this R32 at Union Tpke today and would have snapped plenty of pics if I had a camera, which I sadly don't. =(
Also, 3806/7 have the same signs. But there are no others. Thanks for letting me know that there were other cars with what I thought were the proper signs for the E. The only problem is that this doesn't work out on late night runs. Speaking of which, why are the F rollsigns different (on the 5-8 R32 F trains run everyday)?
Ada
But this doesn't compare to the time I saw a R32 on the R with a sign set as a brown diamond R. The sign changer was probably told to change it to "R" but setting it to a brown diamond R is a little bit crazy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
BTW, does anyone know of a good Mac OS X photo-to-webpage utilty I can fully custoimize? Thanks.
Arti
If anything, it's sad to see some of the vandalism the new R143's get. Already, I see rampant scratchiti, those overly common 'dirt' marks on the doors themselves (they can also be seen on the R142/A's. I believe they are caused by dirty shoes), and some little-time graffiti in one case. Why are these new trains being vandalised anyway? It seems some people aren't happy with their new trains. I would, but I'm just content with my remaining Redbirds and R62A's...
For a forum about urban transit, its participants know surprisingly little about vandalism.
People vandalize for the same reason that dogs like to piss on certain trees or fire hydrants. It marks your territory, it's “cool.”
They don't care what kind of train it is, the fact that it's new and clean just makes it more palatable, there are no old markings that interfere with it.
The Vandals were a Germanic tribe that sacked Rome in 455 CE.
Attention MTA graphics department!
What/Where does the OTHER track lead to....... which line does it belong to?
My guess is the N to Astoria.
Actually the tunnel portal, the track that you're talking about, that is the mainline. You - being on the R train took the spur, the turnout. You see that was the original BMT leading outside ( to Queensborough Plaza ) . Then in about 1948 they built the Queens Blvd. line, and the turnout that the R takes was made as a connection.
R-32
R-32
R-32
R-32
Robert
Norristown, PA
Can you provide photos?
-Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bauman proposed simply extending the J/Z to 9th Avenue, and turning it there. The ride from Broad Street to Pacific is 11 minutes at rush hour, so extending the J/Z means putting 4-5 more trains on the road during rush hour (two in each direction). The express run from 36th to Pacific takes six minutes, so if the J/Z were to run light from 9th Avenue to Pacific figure 2-3 more trains would be on the road. That means about more seven trains, or 42 more cars, would have to be run. In fairness, 2/3 of this cost would be absorbed even if a new turnaround were built at Atlantic Avenue, cutting out the 36th to Pacific deadhead. Then again, Bauman's suggestion would mean an additional walk relative to the IRT.
It is true that zillions are being spent to widen the passageway from Atlantic Terminal to Pacific Street. If the cross-under was more attractive, what are the chances that (with advertizing) if BMT service were much more frequent, LIRR riders would choose to go to Altantic Avenue rather than Penn and get on the BMT rather than the IRT?
It's all part of this "Downtown revitalization" frenzy being stirred up by Brookfield and others. Concerned about the way some large companies have moved out of Downtown since the attacks, the Downtown revitalization groups like the LMDC are basically grasping at straws, trying to come up with ideas. Faster commuting times for suburbanites is just the latest one of these. It's anyone's guess what will be next.
Lost in all the shuffle is the fact that Downtown's office-vacancy rate is actually lower than most large downtowns nationwide. In fact, the rate today is no worse than it was as late as the middle 1990's - Downtown's "boom years" were really very few, starting around 1995 or 1996 and lasting only until 2000 (the vacancy rate had been rising before 9/11). Finally, the vacancy rate's been dropping somewhat in the last several months and absent a major slump will probably continue to decline.
In short, we have expensive, unrealistic solutions being proposed for a problem that (1) is not terribly serious, and (2) will most likely get better on its own.
Downtown's transit infrastructure has had essentially no investment since well before World War II, unless you count the replacement of Hudson Terminal, an event that added no new capacity. New York is the most transit-dependent city in the United States. Transit investments are peculiarly the province of government--no one else can make them. A few billion dollars, though an astronomical sum to any individual, is peanuts compared to the urban renewal it can generate.
Had the "no-build" attitude prevailed a century ago, we would have no subway.
In what sense are downtown transit connections poor? Virtually from any point there's less walk to ANY trunk line than in some parts of CBD.
Arti
That last statement is true, but you need to measure the total length of the commute, not the walking distance between the office and the subway station. Numerous studies have been done, comparing commuting time from various residential communities to downtown/midtown. For an awful lot of people, the midtown commute is shorter.
In an earlier post, someone said:
Downtown's "boom years" were really very few, starting around 1995 or 1996 and lasting only until 2000 (the vacancy rate had been rising before 9/11).
Downtown's true boom years were before WWII. It was once the nation's largest central business district, and it is now the 3rd largest. I do not mean to suggest that under-investment in transit is the sole reason for this. But it is one of the reasons.
Downtown's true boom years were before WWII. It was once the nation's largest central business district, and it is now the 3rd largest. I do not mean to suggest that under-investment in transit is the sole reason for this. But it is one of the reasons.
Midtown has leapt past Downtown to take over first place. Yet, what major transit projects has Midtown had in that period?
- 6th Ave Chrystie connection.
- IRT 59th St express platform
- Numerous improvements to what is now MNRR
- 63rd St tunnel
- Lengthening of the BMT platforms
No single speactacular thing, but there has been a major increase in the ability to move passengers to midtown by rail (and bus for that matter).
It's a well know fact that CEOs like to move their companies to shorten their commutes. Many CEOs in the 50s through 80s saw the expiration of their office leases in downtown as an opportunity to move to somewhere near Grand Central and cut 20 minutes off their trip to work.
More recently (say from 1970 onward), of course, they have moved their headquarters out into the suburbs where they live.
There is alternative to more transit investments for the suburbs -- better public schools in the city. Many of the executives who now live in the suburbs might then consider homes in the outer boroughs, in areas such as the southern rim of Brooklyn. Then, as suburban housing hits age 50, 60, 70, some of it could be subdivided to become home to the region's poor, particularly those who already work there.
Just a thought.
Improving public schools doesn't get rid of the poor, it's getting rid of the poor that improves public school.
Call me a classist all you like, but it's true. Schools spending is generally equal in all districts in New York City, and yet schools in middle class and wealthy neighborhoods, even ones that are overcrowded always perform better.
I wouldn't consider any of these really major, except for Chrystie Street. They aren't going to account for the increased growth of Midtown vs. Downtown. I would say the main reason has to do with Midtown's bigger blocks and wider streets, which allows for the construction of buildings with larger floor plates and less of a closed-in feeling. That, plus the increasing likelihood of CEO's to live in Westchester and Connecticut, as you mentioned. The main point is, transit doesn't account for Downtown's (relative) decline.
At present, not. But as I recall (don't have the data handy anymore) 200,000 people work on the Upper East Side. A lot more than, for example, Downtown Atlanta.
Not much can be done about it as for some people Midtown is geographically closer. Again for Brooklynites Downtown is closer, so what's your point?
Arti
My point is that things can, in fact, be done to make downtown a more attractive work destination. That's the idea of the governor's and the mayor's proposals. Mind you, I've nothing against midtown--it's a gorgeous area--but it's essentially built-out. Downtown represents a growth opportunity.
So far most of it deals with making Downtown allegedly more attractive to Longislanders. The only meaningful thing IMO is the transit hub idea.
Arti
None like 2 Broadway, with the possible exception of the New Jersey folks, who were screwed by 9/11. The signals divison was previously in Midtown; Downtown Brooklyn or Long Island City would have been great for the Long Island folks, less good for the New Jerseys. In general, CPM staff spend as much time as possible in construction field offices closer to their homes.
New Jersey is the place of residence of choice for those working Downtown. For example, my wife's co-workers at the Federal Reserve Bank of NY overwhelmingly live in Jersey. Why? You don't have a one-seat ride, but you do have an easy transfer to an empty train at Hoboken or Newark. Or to a ferry.
For city workers who are required to live in the city (virtually no one these days -- does Bloomberg live here?) Brooklyn is the residence of choice, since it is closer to the civic center.
An easy option to provide to LIers.
Arti
I thought of that. Back at DCP, when asked to come up with low cost suggestions, I proposed extending rail lines to the waterfront, then relying on watercraft on the rivers for north-south travel. These ideas were extensively vetted on Subtalk a few years back.
The LI connection would be to extend the Atlantic Avenue Branch down to the water, where dedicated ferries timed to the train would bring people to the foot of Wall Street, South Ferry, and Battery Park City.
Other than Wall Street, government and the insurance industry, downtown hasn't been considered a prime location. The overwhelming majority of workers downtown were back office staff. The insurance industry (other than AIG) pretty much shipped out the back offices 10-20 years ago. Wall Street has been shipping them out (though still in the metro area) more recently. These decisions had very little to do with transit and much more to do with the cost of rent, cost of employee benefits (mandated and unmandated) and the perceived quality of the employee pool.
To me, downtown seems destined to become a hub for government with a residential interior unless something changes to draw back office jobs back into the city. Otherwise, I don't really see that NYC has a pressing need for 2 CBD's anymore.
CG
Downtown probably will retain a core of "front office" jobs in the securities industry, with some others in insurance, law, and so on. Lower rents as compared to Midtown also are likely to attract smaller and newer businesses. Combined with the growth in residential uses, my prediction is that Downtown may slip some but will always remain an important business center.
Having a type of job leave New York City is a leading indicator of having it disappear altogether.
Companies started moving back office jobs to the suburbs, to take advantage of the white housewife labor force, in the 1970s. In the 1980s, such jobs were located out of the region. In the 1990s, information technology wiped out tens of thousands of such jobs in the city, a process that still continues. For example, a new international payments bank will eliminate the need to reconcile millions of foreign exchange transactions.
The only back office job that remains is person to person contact. This work is being exported to India.
Which means that most types of back office jobs which leave Manhattan are doomed anyway. Taking that to the next step, it could be argued that spending billions improving Downtown transit, in the process keeping back office jobs from leaving, is just postponing the inevitable. Of course, the transit proponents will claim their plans will preserve front office jobs too, but accepting the under-sentence-of-death scenario for the back office jobs reduces the need for the transit plans.
The fallacy of the previous post, is the belief that transit investments downtown are being taken to get the back office jobs back, and/or to prevent more from leaving. More accurately, there is a recognition that those jobs are on the wane, and it's time to make the investments to make downtown competitive for other types of jobs.
Each to their own viewpoint. Trends change. The HUGE amount of transit infrastructure in downtown will sooner or later attract companies that ain't there already. What's the most famous symbol of business in the world? Wall Street. That's the name they know in Iowa, and Kansas, and California, Illinois, Maine, also England, Japan, Germany....this is NOT a worthy asset?
Also, there's there's the value of being "located in the Financial District". Valuable names, important locations.
Plenty of room on 7th and 8th Aves for more office space. Also on 10th and 11th Aves if the 7 extension gets built.
If major tenants are willing to accept street rather than avenue addresses, there's also ample mid-block space.
I presume Midtown is 1st, so what's 2nd? Chicago?
Correct.
I would dispute the "exodus" claim. Even if you count the "soft space" (which isn't unique to Downtown) and the upcoming lease expirations, Downtown's vacancy situation is not terrible. As far as the falling rents are concerned, that's a nationwide issue. Yes, Downtown's vacancy rate would be worse if it hadn't been for conversions, but so what? Downtown's becoming more of 24/7 place with residences, not just a 9-to-5 business center. I see that as good.
Lastly, bringing this all back on topic, even if we were to concede that Downtown's in rough shape, blaming it on poor transit connections is wholly missing the point. Downtown's transit situation is no worse today (excluding the temporary interruption of PATH) than it was during the boom years of the late 1990's, or for that matter than it was when Downtown was the city's main business district in the 1950's. Fact is, Downtown transit is pretty good indeed.
Yes, but IINM it had just lost a lot of El connections.
More people work in offices in Midtown than in Downtown, but they're spread over a much larger geographical area, moreover an area with wider streets. Hence the greater "bustle" apparent in Downtown. There's nothing new about that.
As I see it, the reason for all this hoopla is that, in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the Federal government allocated $20.6 billion to help redevelop Lower Manhattan specifically, not New York as a whole. Of that sum, $4.55 billion was earmarked for transportation, to benefit Lower Manhattan specifically. This despite the fact that Lower Manhattan is extremely well developed and probably has more subways per square mile than any other place on Earth.
Given that the money is available, it surely will be spent; somebody will get the benefits and somebody will make the profits.
Hence the grandiose Fulton Street Transit Center "Taj-MTA" project, connections from Lower Manhattan to all three airports, one-seat service from Lower Manhattan to Jamaica, and sundry other projects, have been dreamed up as ways of spending the money that the Federal Government so generously donated.
New concerns have been found to "justify" the new plans. So all of a sudden there are concerns that visitors may find it too confusing to transfer between trains at Fulton Street, that suburban Long Islanders may be spending too much time to commute to Lower Manhattan, or that it is vital for all three airports to be connected to a "grand point of arrival" in Lower Manhattan.
Left to itself the Transit Authority might prefer to spend the money in other ways; the Mayor might prefer to extend the #7 to the Javits Center; upper east siders might prefer a start to be made on the Second Avenue Stubway. But the Federal money is earmarked for Lower Manhattan, so those other projects are not eligible.
The Subtalk Atlantic Avenue subway plan seeks a better way to provide a better service to Lower Manhattan, but I feel sure that most Subtalkers, unlike the infamous Br**kf**ld, are not trying to line their own pockets!
CG
Hey, I wrote it in. It didn't make the cut.
1. Do as currently planned in 2004.
2. In 2004, run the W and R as 4th Ave locals and terminate the M at Broad (preferably) or Chambers, even in rush hour. Advertise this heavily to LIRR commuters. This would mean 16 tph on a single route between Pacific and 4 stations in Lower Manhattan. While it would be a shame not to have Nassau-Dekalb service, it is better than splintering the Montague service between the R and M, because then in the PM there is lousy service from both lines. The current trains running through the Montague are very uncrowded anyway, and will only get less crowded once the MB opens fully. LIRR commuters would be getting on at Pacific just where the 4th Ave local riders switch to an express over the bridge.
3. Connect the LIRR tracks with the Montague so that you can run direct express subways from Jamaica Station to Dekalb, continuing on through the Montague. This will also entice some Jamaica riders who insist on taking the E to downtown away from the Queens Blvd line. It's also probably cheaper than making a new terminal at Atlantic.
All else is not worth the money for the benefit received.
The Brooklyn Branch and Hunterspoint used to be a cheaper ticket (it was called Zone 1-B) but the LIRR discontinued this for no better reason than they didn't want to be bothered with conductors selling or chopping step-up tickets when people with 1-B tickets used Penn.
When they did this it accelerated the long decline in usage of Flatbush Avenue station. Why in the world would someone want to pay the same fare to go to Brooklyn as to go to Penn and then pay another full subway fare to get to Wall Street, when the time via Penn is similar, the 1/9 and 2/3 are less crowded than from Brooklyn, and the service from LI to Penn is more frequent, direct and convenient?
So try this: Have a zone 1 LIRR ticket include the subway fare, but only if you get on at Atlantic Avenue. Try it for six months and see how travel patterns change.
I agree with you Paul. And one more thing. They should absolutely implement MetroNorth to Penn when LIRR to GCT opens. And, they should discontinue the discounted combined commuter rail/subway fare at Grand Central. Program the subway turnstiles at Grand Central not to accept those tickets. You want to get on the subway, go to Penn.
Only problem: no plans to spend the big bucks (not so big in my view) to connect the Harlem line to Penn. But they can drive to the Hudson line if they have to.
At some stations you can wait quite a while while a train unloads. At 5th Avenue going south in Bay Shore for example, you can wait seemingly forever while a train picks up a laod of Fire Islanders gong home.
On topic to the subway, the E105 crossing was strictly manual.
First, the gates use a combination of timers and island circuts. The island circut is basically the segment of track that crosses the road and 3-5 feet on either side. On low speed trackage this is the prefered method of grade crossing protection. The train just edges forward onto the circut then waits for the gates to drop before proceeding. If you combine this with a timer as to handle non-stopping trains, the gates will drop as normal, then after a certain amount of time the gates will raise back up at which point the train has to use the island circut method.
Second there is the conductor control box as was mentioned in a previous post.
Third, the gates could be interlocked with the signaling system so that the gates only deploy upon the home signal not being at STOP. This way the gates drop when the train is signaled to leave.
On the San Francisco peninsula, many of the commute stations were surrounded by grade crossings. The gates would go up as soon as the train stopped, if it was not on the crossing. To get the warning devices to activate again, the engineer had to blwo the horn full blast! There were microphones next to the track, about the height of the locomotive roof, which would "hear" the horn and start the gates working again.
You might want to take a ride over to the Aberdeen-Matawan station on the Coast Line. You will see the conductor control boxes on the platform, and when an eastbound train comes in, most conductors will turn the key so that the gates will go up while the train sits in the station. And just before the conductor passes the signal back to close up, he/she will turn the key to bring the gates back down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
www.mvra.org
John
It's a fine system, and I'm proud to say that Misty Dawn Sizemore, Vice-president of Lost & Found Operations, recommends The Third Rail.
ROTFLMAO!
"British Lard Marketing Board"??? That shoulds alot like the American Association of Hot Air Enthusiasts, better known as the US Congress.
Who I might mention do have their own subway.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nvta.co.uk/
A train system in the UK where the fare is paid in Dollar$ ?
Is this for real?
My sympathies ...
John
I'm the creator of the Nearbug Valley Transportation Authority.
It is indeed fictional, but it is not US or UK based... in fact we're out of South Yomodorin, which is somewhere between Atlantis and Dinotopia! ;)
We have the fares in dollars because it's what I'm familiar with... and I had to do all this work creating a whole town, fictional names for things, why bother creating a currency too?
I'm a resident of the SF Bay Area and a HUGE fan of MUNI, Bart, Caltrain, and VTA light rail... so I suspect there will be the occasional topic on such here.
Boriqua is a good friend of mine and is slowly and surely getting me aquainted with NYCT Subway lines and the LIRR, but it's a lot to take in!
Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:
http://nvta.co.uk
Bay area pretty much explains it ... I'm in upstate New York myself, same kinda laid back without the tremors ... well ... ours are smaller than yours - best we've done was a 5.5 rattler last summer.
And you might consider going off the gold standard and onto the tuna mousse standard ... 'You will do exactly what I say Dog.' 'I will do exactly what you say Cat.' You will buy me 100 tuna mousses with your own money.' 'I will buy you 100 tuna mousses with my own money- hey cat- what's a tuna mouse??' 'Oh I give up! Tuna MOUSSE! You will stop being an IDIOT!' 'I will stop being a -hey! I'M NOT AN IDIOT!!'
Moo. :)
I actually had called the city Nearburg but an unfortunate accident with my web page designer had all the maps and headers saying Nearbug so I just changed it, no harm done. =) It still holds to its original meaning for me at least.
Bedtime...right after I run down to the... *forgets the name of the supermarket in CatDog* for some Tuna Mousse... but I think I'll like it here! =)
What exactly is that? Another sick, risque insider Subtalk joke?
Reconnecting the Vital Sea View Link
In early 1974, during the construction of the Blue Line, the lack of an efficient link between Sea View, a Seaside
community approximately 40km to the East of Nearbug became painfully apparent when the Catdog Blimp crashed
into and destroyed the Highway 470 bridge over the Nearbug canal. Residents of Sea View became stranded from
their jobs, as the next nearest alternate route around the canal was over 70km out of the way. Downtown
businesses were strangled as only small portions of their staff were reporting to work. When surveyed, the residents
of Sea View and outlying commuities were very receptive to the idea of Commuter Rail and voted in favor of a 2%
increase on county sales tax to help fund the project. Construction finally began on Sea View Central Lines'
two-track mainline in 1976, following the hasty rebuilding of the Highway Bridge. The 41km route was completed in
1977 and opened for revenue service late that year, following the leasing of 8 E-9s and 56 single-level Budd coaches
from the now-defunct Union Pacific passenger lines. A set of 8 Budd RDC-3s were also purchased for weekend and
special trains. Two of the E-9s are still in active service today, and two more are being rebuilt in an effort to maintain
the last few of these magnificent machines in existence.
Sure it wasn't a link to the Second Avenue Subway?
Note that British Lard is Y2K compliant! :)
Paul: The Third Rail is a fine magazine. However acticles about the Dayton Metro would probably be found in the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Rail Magazines.
I understand that at one time it was planned to connect the Dayton Metro to the Staten Island Rapid Transit at Wentworth Avenue which was the reason for the ramshackle nation of the platform there. They didn't want to install a more permanent structure until they knew what the track configuration would be.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Haven't you ever ridden that connection? "This is Wentworth Avenue on the Dayton Express, next stop, 76th Street." (groan) ;-)
BTW I've been to Dayton several times and the only electric transit that I could find were the tracless trolleys.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't know too much about the B&O service to St. George, only I've heard it was done. I don't think they ever brought any name trains ("the Royal Blue"--how many people remember the B&O trains that competed with the Congressionals for Washington traffic?) there. I would think the route via Jersey City was faster because of the shorter ferry ride.
BTW I've been to Dayton several times and the only electric transit that I could find were the tracless trolleys.
True. Surprising how few trackless operations are left.
I was told this was done during World War II when the B & O ran troop trains. This was to transport soldiers into NYC to board destroyers, aircraft carriers etc. to head of to Europe. My friend who works for Staten Island Railway says he's never seen a photo of this troop train, but claims they ran. It was probihited to photograph anything relating to the military during the war. He was told by oldtimers that B & O steam engines pulled those troop trains.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
R-32
SOrry for interrupting all of the train buff's out there with this...but I need to try to reach him and I know he'll come sign on soon!
ANNIE
R-32
I learned about Miami Valley Rail Authority when some one posted the web site URL on news:misc.transport.urban-transit back in 10 06 2000.
You can read the whole thread at http://groups.google.com/
There are a number of threads that have come up about the Dayton Subway over there years.
Here is what http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dayton+Subway+group:misc.transport.urban-transit returns.
John
You have all been suckered.
Same as Adam Paul's Baltimore Transit Company
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I wonder what standards were set up to justify the recently vote that this is the 'the most reliable system in the world.'
If that doesn't do it for you, try their legal notices.
R142 1166-1170 down at the North Channel bridge. Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to get the polarizing filter off and the telephoto lens on, or I could have had a better picture of it coming over the bridge.
Evry time a Cyclops sings, a Redbird gets its wings...
I think you mean water wings !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why do you ask dumb questions?
Also, I reserve the right to make up words using Ancient Greek and Latin roots. Use an Ancient Greek dictionary.
2) I wasn't trying to get anyone mad. I was asking a very simple question.
There are devices for A div cars travelling on B div lines. I forgot what they're called, but they're provided so transfers don't run unprotected.
If these devices are not available, then a TSS must ride the train.
Anyway, it's nice to know Amtrak is doing this.
Well, based on my brief passage through the station yesterday I noticed some interesting changes. All the remaining old 30's verticle supports were being sheathed in tile with NJT coloured tile stripes midway up. The stairways,which used to have open space beneith them, now have cinderblock storerooms that are also being covered in tile with the NJT motif. Can anyone else (Chuchubob perhaps) elabourate on this?
Also, they are comming along with the Haddonfield station rehab as well. They replaced the 60's style, yet totally unnoticable large picture windows with small 18 inch squares (probably for replment cost reasons). Also, the ticket machines have been moved onto temporary stands and many of the benched that were outside the building are now inside. This combined with the removal of the Newsstand has really opened up the interrior, but to what end I don't know. The old roof treatment has the egues of the roof sort of consist of an inverse logarithmic style concrete curve. Well, this has been totally "boxed" and then painted sort of a tan colour.
Whatever their plan the Haddonfield station has gone from an unobtrusive "blah" to a noticably wired structure. Frankly I prefer the blah.
Speak for yourself. I would not want to be photographed on the train without my permission, and no doubt many other people think the same way.
I'm SURPRISED "having a permit" gets consideration from SMaster.
Arti
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What does it mean when AMTRAK is "resignalling"?
...is this the only place where trains have to wait for other trains that are going in opposite directions at any time and place?
Well the way that question is worded, it could include Park Place in both directions.
There used to be many more places, of course. One of the last to go was the crossing of the Sea Beach and West End north of Coney Island Creek until the bridge there was doubled in the '60s. Until about 1958 Brighton-Franklins had to cross over the busy Brighton Line in order to relay.
Of course, different kinds of special or non-revenue moves (such as an N having to come in on the W track, before the station was demolished) would force a crossover in opposition to traffic.
Here are the projects that have been put on New York City's plate since 9/11/01 and have either begun or have yet to begin (in no order of importance):
1) Bringing the 2012 games to New York (and with that, extending the 7 to the Javits Center from the North and possibly the L from the South
2a) Making a decision on what gets built in lower Manhattan and finally build it
3) Lower Manhattan transportation hub (and with that comes a possible extension to the LIRR and the creation of the 2nd Ave line)
4) Connecting the LIRR to Grand Central
5) AirTrain to JFK
6) Construction of a new Penn Station in Manhattan
These are just 6 I could think of immediately. I'm sure that there are others. The question I bring forth for discussion is this:
How are we (the people of NYC) going to pay for it?
I understand that the federal government is giving us some money. But, with NYC bridge and tunnel tolls to $4 ($8 on the Verrazano), the NY-NJ bridge and tunnel tolls to $6, and the NYC Subway to $2 (with increases as well to LIRR and Metro-North)... how much more money does the city actually have to pay for all this?
If NYC wins the bid for the 2012 games, would all that construction be actually worth having the games here? Yes, there will be visitors and money coming in (albeit 9 years from now)... but there will also be a lot of congestion in an already crowded city. I attended the 2002 games in Salt Lake... and some of the crowds there were overwhelming. I would love to see the 2012 games in NYC, but at what cost in money, time... and (something many of us New Yorkers don't have) patience?
I apologize for the ramblings. I just don't want New York to have it's own 20-year Big Dig. Have fun discussing!
-- Dan
PS: About Boston... I haven't been there in 3 years. Any progress on the digging?
For all of the details on the progress of "Big Dig" point your web browser to http://www.bigdig.com
There is this idea that the rest of the country will feel bad for us and stop taking out billions more than they pay back in. We'll see.
Just to put this in perspective, the annual income of everyone living in New York City is about $275 billion. It takes at least $5 billion of that just to maintain the transit system as it is.
There's also an idea that Santa Claus comes down chimneys with toys, that the Tooth Fairy puts coins under the pillows of children that lose baby teeth, that the Easter Bunny ...
Peter: Santa stopped coming down the chimneys years ago when everone moved into condos, now he takes the elevator like the rest of us.\
The Tooth Fairy is recovering from gunshot wounds at a hospital in Des Moines, Iowa. It seems she entered the home of an NRA member without permission when she tried to placed some money under his kids pillow.
We all know what happened to the Easter Bunny. He was busted for placing all his eggs in one basket.
The Great Pumpkin had better watch out.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
That's because you were 4 when the 70s ended.
Peace,
ANDEE
# 3 (Fulton street and Path) transit hubs are being paid for through money FEMA allocated for WTC recovery, the recovery effort at the WTC finished months earlier than expected and about $3 Billion under what was allocated. NYC got permission to use the excess recovery money to "improve" existing transit infastructure downtown.
# 4 President Bush directed that this project get a "favorable" rating for the next round of Federal Transit funding, which is in the process of being renewed.
# 5 Already paid for through $5 dollar airport improvement surcharges added onto every airline ticket, it's going to open later this year.
# 6 Money was allocated by the Department of Transportation in 1997 under the Direction of then President Clinton. The money is already allocated for the project, the delays have come through negotiations with the Post Office to vacate the facility and switching contractors.
#1 is the only project that the City itself will actually be paying for, the City is going to set up a new agency to issue construction Bonds. The bonds will be paid through increased tax revenues, parking, concessions , licenses etc issued in the redeveloped area.
Robert Wood Johnson has pledged $600 Million of his personal fortune towards the new Stadium.
And let's hope when all is said and done... NYC will look better than ever.
If NYC wins the bid for the 2012 games... there will also be a lot of congestion in an already crowded city.
The last plan I saw had the games scattered all over the place. Soem events in the City, some upstate, some on the island.
I think that will test visitors' patience more than New Yorkers.
Bronx is upstate?
The only out of city venue for the Olympics will be the Meadowlands.
I'm not a great fan of bringing the Olympics to NYC, but to the organizers' credit, their design concentrates the events in a much more compact space than many recent Olympiad. Viewed strictly for the events' "compactness," the NYC bid is actually better than most others.
The reason you've never seen it in such disarray, is because your only 27! Believe me, this 58 year resdident has seen the city MUCH worse.
Peace,
ANDEE
Economists predict our city will experience the same boom Sarajevo enjoyed after the 1984 Games.
C-4 or plastique?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of us railfans know the embryonic name for the 149th/Concourse complex is Mott Avenue. The Mott name is probably in common use among employees. But WHY would the PA announce it as such, when doing so would completely confuse the average rider? I did see some eyebrows go up at its mention. The PA went on to say that those desiring downtown Lex service should transfer from the 2 at Mott Avenue.
Just think, some people might be led to believe the 5 now runs to Far Rockaway, where there's a much more famous (and contemporary) Mott Avenue.
Come to think of it, the average rider doesn't know what the term "General Order" means when it's announced in lieu of the more user-friendly "track work".
Could it be that the TA is reviving the old name of Mott Avenue for the 149th/Concourse complex? Not very likely, given how old Queens street names that have been replaced by numbers are being rapidly phased out.
One conductor who insisted on announcing the term "General Order" actually berated the confused passengers for not knowing what it meant.
I have heard a few conductors use the Mott Avenue name in their announcements, once on the #2 and once on the #5.
wayne
When this GO usually happens, the 5 basically runs in 2 sections from E 180 St-Dyre [the shuttle] and Bowling Green-149 ON THE 4 TRAIN PLATFORM. This is better known as the mystery GO since it tends to come out of nowhere thereby confusing passengers and sometime the crew.
I'm sorry I had to do this like this...but I knew that you'd be online soon to check out your favorite website. I may not know anything about trains or understand why you're the train buff that you are..but I do listen ..and I do watch...and I know that this is my only chance of reaching out to you or someone who will relay the message. I don't even care if people think this is ridiculous....I hope they see it as TRUE LOVE..because that's all I have for you!
ANNIE
Peace,
ANDEE
(Battery Operated Boyfriend)
-Mark
Maybe you will if you stop moping around and blaming everyone else for your misfortunes.
As far relationships are concerned, wives and girlfriends put gray hairs on you. As soon as they can get their hooks in you, they try to change you into something they want, not what you want. Female friends keep you on your toes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
Robert
Ayup, cab blessings aren't just for Father Cosgrove anymore. :)
Put it this way: those of us who are single can still celebrate Independence Day and Thanksgiving Day.:)
You should stop concentrating on mystical chix, as that strategy isn't working. Besides, I've never quite figured out why so many men have a fetish for them.
It isn't awful NOT being married however you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself and get out there and find a girl, geez........
You should write for WCW, brah....
As if I was really serious with my post!!!
Jimmy :)
What do you mean by that? I got an e-mail from the webmaster, reminding me of my password. Trouble is, I hadn't forgotten my password, and hadn't e-mailed him asking for a reminder.
What's going on?
Sorry.
What is this crap doing on anyway? It's bad enough that we have political talk integrated into transit (but that's another thing) and now we have this relationship thing. r-10, keep your relations somewhere else. There's something called email. You may want to try it sometime. Heh, Mr. Pirmann must be rolling over himself right now. :-/
This is not a curse. It is a rarity :)
--Mark
;-D
Best of luck Annie
Jimmy aka Arrow III( formerly brooklyn)
A quick search of the archive shows your fiancèe only posted here six times, from April 22-26; he may not even still be reading. Since he was here such a short time, I doubt anyone here knows him personally.
I wish you the best of luck. Painful as it is, sometimes it's best to just move on.
Arti
And if it ain't, lemme say this:
Darlin', this is one of the worst things to do to a guy. Messin' with his Subtalk. No no, you don't wanna do THAT! Better you "accidently" bump into him on the street somewhere. But don't screw with his train set.
Arti
All the individual white tiles in the first "E" of Avenue and the surrounding green tiles are gone!! The base background is visable. You can easily see that other tiles are loose and it is just a matter of time before the rest of this ancient name tablet is completely destroyed.
I could not see any evidence of what caused the damage but it only happened within maybe one or two months.
I will send a note to the Transit Museum, maybe they can get to someone to prevent further damage.
If anyone else has some contacts who can do something, please let them know. This is the only name tablet that was not covered by metal "149th St-Grand Concourse" signs and it would be a shame to see it falling apart.
wayne
With SubTalkers changing their handles maybe you ought to change your to: Dept-of-tile
Bill "Newkirk"
How about R-6-2 1233?:) No, not 1277.
Not to besmirch anyone who is doing there jobs but it looks like that when the tile fell from the Mott Avenue tablet, the fallen bits may have been swept up by the sweepers. Let's hope that someone held on to them (maybe gave them to the station agent to hold) for the repair people.
Down at De Kalb Avenue they're doing rehab on the existing 1913 friezes,and are engaged in all out repair war with the station ceiling (that's why the Circle Q is in the Montague Loo) but the white tile in the English Chase pattern is GONE. They've got a mighty job ahead of them down there!
wayne
While that is a reasonable explanation but that sign is almost 99 years old (the station opened in November 1904), how come this didn't happen sooner?
wayne
Jimmy
David, I doubt this information is in the FAQ, but it should anyway.
I mean, with names like Green Hornet and Zephyr, what's Hippos and Rhinos? :)
They never made adhesive strip maps for the 'S'and it would not make much sense because they would have to remove them when equipment is rotated.
That must be a hell of a yard move for 2 of the 3 trains!
Eh, just my guess
Incognito
Have you ever noticed the absence of scratched windows on the Shuttle ? They always seem to change the windows and keep the cars really clean too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Never thought 2 stops could be so complicated.... :
2. Making a sticker map for the grand central shuttle is a waste of money and time for obvious reasons.
3. I belive the MTA is going to change the signals some time in the future.
Why doesn't the TA run this OPTO? The T/O could easily walk the length of the train while the cars load. Easy way for the TA to save money.
And, does the T/O work an eight hour shift ? The thought of a full day going back and forth would make me lose my mind...
Rich
As far as the TA is concerned the GC shuttle IS OPTO. So is:
Rock Park Shuttle
Grand St Shuttle
Midnight A Shuttle (Lefferts-Euclid)
Midnight N Shuttle (86-Pacific)
Midnight 5 Shuttle (Dyre-E-180)
Weekend M Shuttle (Met-Myrtle)
The others escape me at the moment
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I understand that their was a crowding issue when the G was run OPTo on aturdays. But the headway was about 10 min.
All that needed to be done is add an extra train or two per hour(not to mention improve signage and customer education concerning where the train stops)
Two Operating Personel Train Operation
Jimmy :b
Now imagine sitting in a token booth... At the some time people flock to that job too.
Arti
Heh, some S/A's like the slower ones so they could take a little nap too ;-).
Arti
NY Lotto sell lotto tickets through third party vendors
Or install lotto ticket terminals in all remaing booths to give the S/A something to do other then nod off.
Man quest to create technology to free man from mundane tasks so that he can pursue more intelictual endevors
The unions leaders greedy for union dues to support thiere lavish lvestyles seek to keep thier workers working mundane jobs so the memebers minds grow num and fail to see all thier union dues foing into a black hole, thier taxes going up, the price of food and housing going up.
At the end of the day they wonder were all thier money went
That's a gross oversight, creating positions of lotto selling agents would provide a perfectly good job with excellent benefits for thousands or even tens of thousands of people. Perhaps the price of the ticket would go up few bucks, but what the hell it's not my money.
Arti
"creating positions of lotto selling agents would provide a perfectly good job with excellent benefits for thousands or even tens of thousands of people"
No it would spell the end of NY Lotto due to it oosting more to operate then it brought in
Your plan would generate NO revenue for the state,the whole purpose of running the lotery system is to generate moeny for education.
Result in fewer places to buy tickets.
Result in lower jackpots
Result in fewer lotto tickets sold.
Plus removing a drawing card to get people in the door of hndreds of reatailers who sell lotto tickets resulting in fewer newstands.
Not to mention creating a fertale market for organize crime to run thier own numbers racet offering players more money for the some odds
Prior to NY lotto startin it's daily number, the local moffia guy ran daily numbers.
Creating jobs that are not needed reults in chasing pricate sectors jobs sector jobs out of state reducing tax revenue to all.
«Your plan would generate NO revenue for the state,the whole purpose of running the lotery system is to generate moeny for education. »
But it would, those employed by lotto have plenty of money to educate themselves.
Arti
So,Simon Legree is alive and well. Why would anybody want healthcare,vacations,hours of service guidelines,safety regulations,overtime and to be paid for services provided to the employer. I guess we should be like our fore-bearers and be thankful just to be employed. Hope you recognize some good old fashioned Brooklyn sarcasm when you read this. Signed a Union Employee.
Agents are like the people in this room. Some can take the criticism and the bull. Some can't.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
yet another reason why the job of fare selling by a S/A at a booth is unnneded.
If the straphangers campaign wants a person at each station all day, the person should be out of the booth, providing security and other functions for passengers.
Personally I don;t see the need for a person at most stations at all
Path does not have any booths.
Your local bus stop doea not have anyone selling metrocards
Why the need to have a person selling cards at each station, especially lower volume stations in the middle of the day.
Certain things shouldn't be cut. Simple as that. We need the human presence. The NY subway system is not a commuter rail system. It's not an national rail system. It's an urban people mover of the highest order. Call it what you will; EVERY station in the system needs at least one attended booth. That's the nature of the subway system.
You can lay statistics on me until the cows come home. Won't make a difference. I've been riding subways for over 40 years now. The aggregated "knowledge" I've acquired along the way has led me to the conclusion that you don't want ANY station to be, uh, boothless. It isn't a "luxury". The inherent dynamics of the transactional and operational process called into play at "entry into system", ISTM, requires a manned booth as focal point. Not "a guy" wandering about the station. That seems almost silly as a concept. For one thing, it'll be more dangerous for that person.
With all your knowledge I guess you never wandered over to NYC other subway system PATH which opetate's without a fare sales booth and handles more traffic at it's manahttan stations then many NYCT transit stations.
Or to your local bus stop where there is no booth to sell fares.
Face the facts most commuters buy more fares per transaction due to metrocard discounts and the price advantage for unlimited rides under the new fare structure.
Add into the fact that single ride customers must use the machine and thier is little or any use for fare sales clerks.
"It isn't a "luxury". The inherent dynamics of the transactional and operational process called into play at "entry into system", ISTM, requires a manned booth as focal point"
Not true at all, for the manned booth is not required at PATH, DC METRO and many NYCT fare controls that opearate without a booth currently.
95% of riders entering fare control already have thier fare. Riders buying single rides can not buy them at the booth. Plus retailers sell the cards directly outside stations.
What inherit dynamic requires a booth. At many stations especially in manhattan along the broadway line, lex local and the like, riders prefer to pay by credit card and avoid the booth.
Non, I could venture to bet you don't even live in NY for some time and are completly out of touch with the times
The booths are a luxury we can no longer afford to pay for. The majority of the riding public as judged by thier spending habits agree.
The money is better redistibuted to areas where it is needed. Better MVM maintace, increased securtity
also concidering the city concil is concidering requiring all companies employing more then 50 people to offer transitcheck metrocard, the number of people using tooken booths will decline further. Concidering that it only cost about $48-50 after tax dollars to buy yearly transitchek metrocard unlimited vs $66.80 cents for a PPR ride metrocard purchaced at an MVM, local retailer or tooken booth, most commuters will have even less need for someone selling fares.
The subways are not a bus. To compare them to buses is not equitable.
The subways are not the PATH line. A minor resemblance, that's it.
I was not saying a fare-selling booth was the ONLY way to acquire "entry rights" into the system. There should always be multiple ways to get into the system. But each station still needs the presence of that booth.
You can only reduce expenditures so much.
Speaking of being out of touch! You think the average New Yorker is in the 28% Federal Income Tax bracket?
(NYS and NYC tax doesn't count since the standard deduction there is so high that very few New Yorkers itemize deductions on a state level. FICA also doesn't count.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
9333,9332,9330,9468-9,9362-3,9536-7,9329,9331,9326
-Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
These cars only logged 32 years service.
A number of new M-7 have been sighted, with car numbers as high as
7075-7076. Don't know when they'll show up on the Babylon line.
wayne
I swear, I spotted some new R62A sets running last friday with RFW on both ends!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
You should do a railfanning trip on the Sea Beach line eventually, Freddy. It's sad to see what condition it's in!!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It was an amazing feat to move this building to the fenced in lot and back to it's original location without the whole structure crumbling into a pile of bricks. Job well done.
Downstairs, the Lex. Ave platform was closed with all #4's running on the #2 & #3 track. Seems they removed the temporary staircase wooden barriers and were placing re-bars so concrete can be poured for the rehabbed staircase. Things are coming along on the IRT side, but upstairs it looks strange seeing steel work rising above where the old Flatbush Ave. terminal once stood. It's about time !
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Looks as if nobody told the gang to say "Moo," for the photographer.
We did kinda figger out who the shify-eyed guy in the vest & hat is. -:)
It was a genuine pleasure to meet all of you. Sorry I wasn't feeling too well -- I jumped on Amtrak and went home and right to bed. I'm feeling MUCH better today, I think the antibiotics are kicking in.
(If anyone wonders....I'm the one with the blue shirt, light grey pants and khaki jacket.)
You HAVEN'T aged a day, brah!!! :) :)
Chuck Greene
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Arriving! (Right click, Save Target As...)
Leaving! (Right click, Save Target As...)
Enjoy!!!
Was it around the time the center portion of WF 9306 passed the lens?
I know I saw a R33WF, and a R12, what were the two other Museum Cars in that consist?
Three of those four cars originally ran on the Flushing line. AFAIK 6609 never polished the rails on the 7.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I don't mean 2 sound cheap, but the MTA screws around w/ our fares & service, so getting a little discount from their store, although not equivelent in any way, shouldn't cause a huge dent in their revenue...hehe.
People who work there are BRIGHTER than certain names up in this here shindig....
Ya thinks?
http://nycsubwayline.com
8-) ~ Sparky
Our "Token" tees were just selected as a "Best Bet" by NY Magazine's
on-line Best Bets last week. We can't keep them in stock now!!
Cool!
Subway grrl
Hope you like them!
Subway grrl
--Mark
Dude, Staples.com coupon codes are da bomb!
---Choo Choo
1- Take all NYCT operations out of the montague tunnel, and have all Brooklyn trains run to canal on the local track, thus allowing a subway type service directly to Downtown
2-Same as above but keep NYCT in the tunnel, and have an atlantic-canal shuttle via montague, to a new platform at the lirr terminal so commuters dont have to go up and down through a station to get the broadway local at atlantic
3-This involves rerouting the M mostly, have the M as a brighton express, heavily advertising the fact the M is down one flight of stars of the escalator in the terminal, but the M may not get as far west as it should
4- The W should be extended to Brighton beach peak hours, which provides a broaday local under the LIRR section- remember the 4th av is at pacific, which is a nice walk from the LIRR, but the brighton is just underneath, and has an already operational escalator from the LIRR to the Q only- no transfer
5-closing the IRT transfer to the LIRR at Atlantic and forcing to transfer to the BMT
Not good. No direct connection to Downtown for the BMT. Plus, this would be close to too many trains on the bridge.
(2-Same as above but keep NYCT in the tunnel, and have an atlantic-canal shuttle via montague, to a new platform at the lirr
terminal so commuters dont have to go up and down through a station to get the broadway local at atlantic)
That's my idea, sort of. I'd just extend the J/Z to Atlantic, but have extra trains available northeast of Chambers and at Altantic so that LIRR riders could be assured of catching their train.
(3-This involves rerouting the M mostly, have the M as a brighton express, heavily advertising the fact the M is down one flight
of stars of the escalator in the terminal, but the M may not get as far west as it should)
Only one train every ten minutes. Too long a wait. The idea of extending the J/Z is that it would be one train every five minutes.
(4- The W should be extended to Brighton beach peak hours, which provides a broaday local under the LIRR section-remember the 4th av is at pacific, which is a nice walk from the LIRR, but the brighton is just underneath)
Same as above. One could propose sending the J/Z down the Brighton, but there isn't enough room for that AND the regular Brighton service.
B = 8 TPH
J = 6 TPH
Q = 8 TPH
Z = 6 TPH
Total = 28 TPH
I think the Brighton could (maybe) handle 28 TPH, but the problem is not that but rather where to send the J/M/Z trains. With rolling stock constraints they probably won't make it much further than Prospect Park, and there's no way for 12 TPH of J/Z trains to terminate in front of 8 TPH of B or Q trains. Even if you cut some service, like shortening V train lengths to 6 cars, the farthest the J/Z could go is Kings Highway, meaning express B service would have to end there, stopping at Neck Rd and Ave U, creating an unneccessary merge.
The fact is, there is nowhere to turn such service, even if it ran lite south of Atlantic. And running it on 4th Ave is not convenient for LIRR commuters (the long walk at Pacific) or else the current M/R would suffice.
Walk or no, here is the problem with the M/R. This is based on my experience working Downtown.
I can walk to Whitehall and take the R to 9th Street and change to the F. But that could be an eight minute wait. Or I could go to Broad Street and take the M. But that could be a ten minute wait. So I go to Whitehall, and if the N comes first I take it to Pacific and change. But come February, the N won't be there.
Now, imagine if I had to catch a train at a specific time at Atlantic Avenue. I'd have to leave enough time -- 25 minutes plus once the travel time, the walk time, the wait time AND a potential delay are factored in. Maybe more.
In contrast, imagine the J/M/Z all running down the Nassau Line, with put-in trains waiting north of Chambers to cover any gap in service due to delays and trains terminating at a new station right at the LIRR stop. It's just a three minute wait, since you could always take the M if it came first, and there is less risk of delays. So you can cut it closer, and maybe it would be better than going to Penn or Grand Central.
Now imagine the J/Z kept running right out to Jamaica on the Atlantic Avenue branch for a cross-platform transfer. See what I mean?
They could buy some ALP46s, slap some variation of the late New Haven colors the FL9s wore on them, and run the whole line electric, hopefully with a future extention to Providence, Rhode Island, closing that gap in NEC commuter service. The ALP46 has been giving good service to NJT after initial tranformer problems, and appears to offer near MU service with the slight savings that a locomotive push pull train provides, and it has none of the HHP-8's truck hunting and Acela related problems.
With such a setup ConnDot could operate Providence to NYP trains via Hell Gate, running express from NYP to say, stamford or New Haven, and local after that. I'm assuming that with the coming of ESA for the LIRR some slots in the East River tunnels might open up, which would be perfect for slipping a few Connecticut bound trains down through Long Island. It might even take a few hundred passengers headed to GCT off the Lex and put them on the 1,2,3 or A,C,E trains for Penn.
Any thoughts?
Plenty!!
It comes down to cost, cost and cost.
A) Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That's hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose.
B) Though ConnDOT owns the ROW from Pawcatuck to the State Line, Amtrak controls the catenary and its upkeep from New Haven eastward. They would charge ConnDOT on some kind of per useage basis, just like they do to SEPTA, NJ Transit and MARC. Those bills can add up.
C) ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million. Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street, so ConnDOT is forever stuck with whatever they provide for Shore Line East, or if need be some pool equipment from MNRR used on the shuttles (Waterbury, Danbury).
These are just three reasons among the many I wouldn't expect to see Shore Line East electrified anytime soon.
Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston. I seriously doubt you'll ever see that electrified either.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jtr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Couldn't that be expected to climb after the introduction of a one-seat ride to Manhattan? There must be people out there who currently work in Manhattan or at least Stamford who desire something more than what SLE currently provides, and as such are using I-95 to get where they need to go.
If ConnDoT owns the tracks, can't they just try to gouge Amtrak at the next renegotiation of Amtrak's rights on the SLE branch if Amtrak tries to gouge them for power? Everybody has to use Amtrak's power elsewhere, theres no other choice, but they manage to get by, why would it be any different for ConnDot on the SLE?
I'm assuming 'Juice Jack' means Locomotive, in which case NJT's ALP46s came with a price tag of 4.7 million a pop. And, as far as I know, there is absolutely no way M-2s,-4s or -6s could run past New Haven State St, due to the frequency changes that you mentioned (They might have changeable taps, so in the shop they could be changed over to permanent SLE service, but can't do it on the fly), nor should they. MUs are best suited to stop and go local service, not any kind of express running. For that a push pull set is by far better, they've already got the cars from the current service, why not make use of them in a better role?
For that matter, why didn't ConnDot buy more P32DM-ACs from GE and use them on the SLE? They could run direct GCT-New London just like the Danbury and Wassaic runs, and running express would suit them just fine, since diesels suck for acceleration.
And yes, it will cost money, maybe 20 million dollars at minimum, just running NYP-New London, and really only if the crossing of the Thames river in New London cooperates. Heaven forbid a transit agency should pay more than a pitance to provide service to it's customers. How many people ride the Danbury and Wassaic lines? Why should those people get more service than the people out beyond New Haven?
Though ConnDOT owns the ROW from Pawcatuck to the State Line
That’s not too much ROW, and do you mean the RI state line or NY state line (where it owns from there eastward to New Haven, plus catenary)? Last I heard, Amtrak owns the ROW from New Haven eastward to the MA state line. If CDOT owned the ROW, that means that Amtrak’s ownership of the NEC drops from 80 percent (last figure quoted, the true figure) to somewhat less than 60 percent.
Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That’s hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose
Well, that’s to be expected when one is riding in a train that consists of badly-riding converted SPVs hauled by a Geep…not to mention low frequency of said service plus no one-seat ride east of New Haven. Change some of those factors and you may change the potential ridership. Not to mention that very few trips still terminate at New London.
And as for investment not being “worth it” based on a line’s current ridership? Now you are falling for the political spin created by transit agencies to avoid investing in a line.
ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million
“Juice Jack”??? LMAO…must be some new railfan term I never heard of. I believe that railroad employees call them “motors”, and as for the true price, read W. Dobner” reply regarding the ALP-46. And are you claiming that the CDOT would not be able to secure federal funds for such a purchase? Other state DOTs do.
Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street
Voltage differences, not frequency, which is the same at 60 Hz. CDOT’s catenary is at about 11kV while Amtrak’s is at 25kV. Not to mention the fact that the M2/4/6 MU cars cannot stop at low platforms, having doors for high platforms only. The voltage difference can be overcome by having automated variable-tap transformers like Amtrak’s equipment has. Indeed, it may be possible that the MUs have this capability already—after all, they do switch from DC third-rail to the AC catenary east of Mount Vernon. The signal systems and platforms would need to be upgraded, granted.
Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston
Since you bring them up, it has often been noted that the necessity of moving trainsets between different lines would not help the case of providing electric motors for the Attleborough Line.
That’s not too much ROW, and do you mean the RI state line or NY state line (where it owns from there eastward to New Haven, plus catenary)? Last I heard, Amtrak owns the ROW from New Haven eastward to the MA state line. If CDOT owned the ROW, that means that Amtrak’s ownership of the NEC drops from 80 percent (last figure quoted, the true figure) to somewhat less than 60 percent.
It could be I am mistaken, it's been years since I read the NEC Guide, but I believe ConnDOT owns ROW from RI to NY State Lines. As you say, they definitely own it from Division Post, New Haven, to the NYS line. I know that ConnDOT (aegis MNRR) also owns and maintains the catenary from NYS line to Division Post, while Amtrak very definitely owns and maintains it from Division Post all the way to Boston. I can vouch for this first hand from the electrification project.
What the significance of the percentages are I don't understand. If the line east of New Haven is Amtrak-owned, there is even LESS of a probability the service will be expanded. ConnDOT has already tried to kill it twice, and if you remember it was supposed to be temporary to begin with.
Amtrak places many demands on ConnDOT to upgrade and maintain its equipment and facilities for Shore Line East, of which to date only the equipment has been brought up to some semblence of contemporary spec. Amtrak snared several million in federal funds to upgrade the stations at New London and Old Saybrook within the past couple of years, and though ConnDOT gets incidental benefit from these projects, their financial participation was limited and reluctant.
Amtrak has been after them for years to upgrade the ConnDOT platforms at Westbrook, Madison, Clinton, Guilford and Branford to improve accessibility and operations, and though the state has pledged to do so time and again, it has thus far failed to do so. ConnDOT DID add the new station at State Street, which seems like a prototype of sorts, but it generally is separated from Amtrak's operations. In fact I was informed last Friday that a recent bill to fund $5 million in improvements at each SLE station has failed again in Hartford. These would fund small high platforms on both sides, complete with crossovers and elevators, similar to Old Saybrook. The existing stations (1990) were intended to be temporary and greatly impede NEC operations in the area. Its clear that SLE just isn't high on ConnDOT's list of priorities, and they have freely admitted as much several times through word and deed.
"Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That’s hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose"
Well, that’s to be expected when one is riding in a train that consists of badly-riding converted SPVs hauled by a Geep…not to mention low frequency of said service plus no one-seat ride east of New Haven. Change some of those factors and you may change the potential ridership. Not to mention that very few trips still terminate at New London.
And as for investment not being “worth it” based on a line’s current ridership? Now you are falling for the political spin created by transit agencies to avoid investing in a line.
To respond to your second query first, I am not at all sure what you mean by an agency's political spin. Fiscal reality is fiscal reality. Shore Line East is a sole ward of ConnDOT and by short extension, the State of Connecticut. Like everywhere else, the news is simply not good from a financial perspective for ANYTHING and no amount of re-prioritizing, even if it were possible, is going to change that.
As for the exisiting conditions, I reference my remarks above about Shore Line East's historical standing within ConnDOT's list of public transportation assets. However, there are many other factors which constrain any growth potential for EITHER Amtrak or Shore Line East.
First and foremost is the problem of open warfare between the railroad(s) and marine interests, who have now successfully limited Amtrak's total number of bridge closings per day, per bridge. Another is the local zoning legislation in Shoreline communities, which is deliberately configured to restrict and even reduce (if possible) the amount of residential and commercial development an expanded rail service would bring. Both are heavy disincentives for expansion (or even retention by some standards) and that's BEFORE you even start looking at Amtrak's operational constraints vis-a-vis its own trains, SLE, P & W, etc. This line does not have , and will not have, the same kind of growth potential that exists west of New Haven or elsewhere on the NEC because of local fastidiousness. I as much as anyone wish this were not the case, but that's the way things are.
"ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million"
“Juice Jack”??? LMAO…must be some new railfan term I never heard of. I believe that railroad employees call them “motors”, and as for the true price, read W. Dobner” reply regarding the ALP-46. And are you claiming that the CDOT would not be able to secure federal funds for such a purchase? Other state DOTs do.
Juice Jack is actually a very old railfan term for electric motors, such as the New Haven's EP series. I don't know about the ALP-46 but I do know that MARC's cost for HHP-8s was upwards of $6-8 million a piece, less many of the bells and whistles their Amtrak sisters contain. Even if such a hypothetical acquisition were formulated, ConnDOT would be forced to subscribe to Amtrak's operational standards. I'm sure that the electrics would indeed be superior to the GP40s out there now, but so are plain old MUs. The issue is if it would be worth the cost of an acquisition like that given the limited use and growth potential Shore Line East has historically experienced and looks like it will continue to experience.
Finally, if motivated and politically active, ConnDOT could indeed obtain FTA funding for electric motors, provided they could make the case to FTA that the expense if justified. Again, we bump into the hurdle of limited growth potential. After that's overcome, ConnDOT would have to be ready to fork over up to 50% of the cost in matching local share dollars. Now I ask you, which is easier to swallow, $2.5 million a piece as 50% of a $5 million electric, or a few hundred thousand for complete ownership of a rebuilt diesel? Which is a more winnable argument at The Capitol in Hartford? If it weren't for holding out (false?) hope that HARTFORD was to be the eventual hub of a statewide commuter rail system,, would the Legislature have even listened in 1990, when they agreed to fund the coach acquisition from Bombardier??....
"Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street"
Voltage differences, not frequency, which is the same at 60 Hz. CDOT’s catenary is at about 11kV while Amtrak’s is at 25kV. Not to mention the fact that the M2/4/6 MU cars cannot stop at low platforms, having doors for high platforms only. The voltage difference can be overcome by having automated variable-tap transformers like Amtrak’s equipment has. Indeed, it may be possible that the MUs have this capability already—after all, they do switch from DC third-rail to the AC catenary east of Mount Vernon. The signal systems and platforms would need to be upgraded, granted.
IIRC, voltages are 11,800 on MNRR and 25,000 on Amtrak. Both are 60 Hz, but the voltage changeover still plays havoc frequently with Amtrak motors, especially those HHP-8s. Amtrak used to pay a Mechanical Dept. person to stand-by with push rods to manually reset the taps on the HHPs the first several months they ran to Boston. Power surges or drops also can destroy the on-board diagnostics. This happened on my most recent trip back inn January 2003, when we lost over 90 minutes on a southbound train at New Haven before the deceased HHP had to be replaced by an unrebuilt AEM-7.
Re the MNRR MUs, I understand only the M-6s have taps that can automatically respond to the voltage differentials. Another factor in MU operation east of New Haven is MNRR's lack of ACSES cab signalling. This has been installed on all GP40s and ConnDOT cab control cars at Amtrak expense, but unless ConnDOT could commit a certain pool of MUs to SLE servce, neither party would be able to justify the cost of outfitting the entire New Haven Line roster with the ACSES cab signal system. Thats the main reason why you can and will see Shore Line equipment west of New Haven, but never MNRR equipment east of New Haven.
"Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston"
Since you bring them up, it has often been noted that the necessity of moving trainsets between different lines would not help the case of providing electric motors for the Attleborough Line.
You hit the nail right on the head regarding MBTA Commuter Rail operations, but that's one cause of which the effect is inability to jsutify the expense of electrifying Providence Line operations. It's not just equipment interchangeability but crews as well, to optimize the assets at hand. With the limited resources becoming available now, the possibility if even CONSIDERING electric local service is extremely remote. This is why Track 3 was not electrified within the Southwest Corridor portion of Boston. And like Shore Line East, Amtrak has certain things it has been after the MBTA to fund at its expense as chief landlord and user of the line. One proposal is to add a third track all the way from Readville to Canton Junction, but since Amtrak did not require it, they will not fund it and the MBTA cannot fund it now. It all comes back to the money.
Anyhow, it's late, I am tired and ready to call it a night. I hope I have responded to your inquiries satisfactorily, albeit not agreeably.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Perhaps it was deliberate. By the time the game ends, there's otherwise no direct service from Yankee Stadium to the CPW local stops. Why make all those people change at 125th?
I don't know what the usual practice is, if there even is a usual practice.
I propose that ALL trains skip the local stops in Manhattan, issue handcars for those along CPW and pump it up. Just kidding, bro ...
I don't understand the animosity towards Manhattan residents. We subsidize the rest of you with our full-price short trips. (Just thought I'd toss in a bit of real flamebait -- although I stand by it.)
That all said, back in the days of the AA train between 168 and Hudson Terminal, there was fairly DECENT local service on CPW. Ever since the AA train went away, it seems like everyone's gotten scrood. Perhaps THIS might be the direction to go in rather than making an already "Toonerville Trolley" make even MORE stops. Just a thought.
The 4 line baseball specials either went to Brooklyn Bridge, Bowling Green or all the way to Utica Ave.
Sorry, no B train extras, people at the IND platform were waiting for them, thinking one B train will show up.
The scheduled time for the non-stop express from Stamford, CT to Grand Central is also an hour.
Anyone care to share how long it takes them to get in to work, from Forest Hills?
Well, certainly one of the biggest, at least.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I defy anyone to cite an even bigger joke.
The CPW express has got to be the biggest joke in the system. How can you have service that runs non-stop for 66 blocks and only saves 3 minutes?!
Oh yeah how about skip stop service on the 1/9, saves almost no time at all.
Click here
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Thier is a minor broha ha because the MTA is taking a few feat of property adjacent to the platforms by eminate domian in orfer to widen the platforms
As for the Ave H station house, the official reason for tearing it down is that it is wood and the MTA has a policy against renovating wooden fare control structures. the mta is in a rush to tear it down even though a replacement is not in the works for some time
Thier is a small group trying to get the station house land marked. Personally I used the station a few times and never noticed anything special
i have not used Ave J in over 10 years, what did they do at ave J.
From what I read, the MTA plans on painting the new structure at Ave H to look like wood planking
It is funny how no one cares about the station until something is under way to replace it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, except for the station house looking like a cottage from the outside, I don't remember anything memorable about the station except for the tunnul under the tracks instread of a roadway.
I dated a girl junior year in HS(10+ years ago) who lived at AVE H. Used to use the station quite often back then. Concidering was arailfan back then also, I figured I notice something. One of the reasons I choose brooklyn tech over the private school my parents wanted to send me to was I got to ride the subway to school every day
For some reason I did not think the station house at the time was anything special. If anything it was run down and cruddy.
Don't confuse that with my current opinion that not only should the house be preserved but it should be renovated to enhance it's apeal.
Actually, it was built as a real estate office, and later became a railroad station.
i was jusr saying at the time when I used the station fairly often I never thousgh twice that about the station house being all that special. Many years aof neglect may have have been part of the reason.
On the other hand I don't see why the mta is in such a rush to take it down and spend a ton a money on a new building.
Though I've heard this denied, I suspect at least part of the reason is that they will be making substantial modification to the platforms and the entrances and exits. If they have to preserve the building more or less intact it may make it more difficult to work around, both during the construction phase and in locating new facilities.
I think that, and not the bogus fire hazard thing, may be foremost of their minds.
The NYCT's contention that the station house IS bogus, ever try to exit quickly the narrow staircases at Cortelyou and Beverly road stations?
Some extra difficulty is well worth the cost. Demolishing the stationhouse would result in the loss of a historical structure, just for the sake of some convenience during the construction. Hardly a bargain.
Well said!!
It's a hundred years old
It's unique in the system
It's a real piece of architecture, not a modern recreation
It's the last surviving example of a BRT surface station
Probably the only surviving station house that was built as a non-railroad structure
It predates its community
It predates the Redbirds
And the Arnines
And the BMT Standards
And the Lo-Vs
And even most of the Hi-Vs
(All of which are now cherished in the TA museum)
It is an example of a disappeared style of cottage architecture
It is a landmark in the most significant generic sense of the words
Once it's gone, that's it, Bro' you ain't never gettin' it back
And as an example of the BRT, don't forget the plaque sitting outside Newkirk Ave station. Although the plaque is marred by a**holes with spray cans and markers, it still stands proud of the beginnings of the modern day era of the BRT.
Thanks, but the Avenue H stationhouse doesn't move anyway. At least, not yet. :(
the preservationist have a strong argument. Lets a suitable resolution to this matter comes forth
A possible solution would to turn the current cottage into a retail establishment that supports transit riders such as a coffee house preserving the building while allowing the MTA to meet it's "safety goals" of not using wood fare control structures
Now you just killed off the sole purpose of what it is meant for, private developer gets a hand on it, private developer does not like it, private delevloper RAZES it.
An agreement could be made under which the developer would have to preserve the structure.
I am picturing a coffee bar similar to freind that could renovate the inside of the stucture to include the fireplace(working or not) and other original details. The structure was originaly a store of some kind
Move the fare control out of the cottage, and both sides are happy.
The cottage remains and gets renovated by the concession, the MTA complies with it's fire code for fare controls.
A HEET or turnstyle could lead into the concession but it would not be the primary entrance to the station.
i am just looking to point out some middle ground.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And this site for the modern one, which is David Greenberger's.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i22000/img_22170.jpg
Well whoever's photo the old one is, it was enough to convince me a few months ago when we first had this discussion that Avenue H was worth saving.
Speaking of The Third Rail, here's a little story about Avenue H for those of you that still aren't convinced that it would be a gre4at loss to have this little station torn down.
A grave mistake as I said before if they rip the heart of the Brighton Line, because that's what NYCT will do.
Ok voiceBUTNOreason, your a fellow Brighton line rider and I am disappointed and surprised that you would make a statement. Yes the house needs work, especially the inside but the stationhouose is another unique sight of our Brighton line and has stood there for nearly 100 years and saying that NOTHING is memorable, think about it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think so. In those days, there was no appreciation for historical architecture like today. I know the building was a real estate office for the area, but the BRT could have evicted the real estate office and built a modern concrete fare control building. It's nice that they left the building standing all these years. Unfortunately the building is in jeoopady and the clock is ticking. Hopefully the building can be landmarked and be saved. If the T.A. can restore old subway stations and mix the old with the new, they can restore that wooden building and make it pass any fire codes.
Bill "Newkirk"
If there wasn't appreciation for historic structures, we would be applauding the decision to remove the station house, not disagreeing with it.
If not, the moterman must have just blessed the cab and got pissed off because you were catching him in the act. ;-D
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BUT
Try to remember that employees are only doing what they were told to do.
-Mark
And even though the rules for taking photos on the New York Subway are posted on this web site (FAQs), and it has been suggested on Sub Talk that you should carry a copy of them when taking photos just in case you run into an over enthusiastic employee, you didn't have a copy of the rules, and therefore believed everything the tower guy said.
Tom
It is more than a guideline. It is the controlling law. Of course, if you are going to show it to someone who is saying photography is illegal, you should be polite, stating this is your understanding of the current law, and ask if there has been a recent change, and if so where has the change been published? Show that you are trying to follow the law as you understand it, rather than being a wise ass. The person is more likely to back down if he does not think you are attacking his personal authority.
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Unless you're in a restricted area (motorman's cab, yard, or other places passangers aren't allowed to access) you CAN PHOTOGRAPH WHATEVER YOU WANT! If you want to stand on a platform and photograph passing trains, NO ONE can stop you, even if they have a badge.
Now I carry the text of 21 NYCRR 1050 and don't bother anymore. And I made the trips to NYC Transit and MTA HQ.
--Mark
How are they communists? Do they advocate that we abandon our capitalist economic system in favor of one based on the theories of Karl Marx?
#3 West End Jeff
It is? Please cite a reference.
--Mark
Next time pull a Thurston and POST A STATION OF MEET along with the time of day.
Things that make ye' go HMMMMMM
R
LOWER EAST SIDE [yes, the "EAST" was spelled out]
2 AV
via 6 AV LCL
Of course, this begs the question: Why not just use the V readings? As long as the train is doing the entire V route (and only the V route), it might as well carry V signs.
That, in turn, begs the question of which is less confusing to the riding public... (1) an R train that runs during its normal hours, but not on its normal route, or (2) a V train that runs its normal route, but not during its normal hours?
Any thoughts?
Certainly the latter. The train you saw was no more an R than it was a 5.
Mark
It was a 5 train more than an R train. It was basically signed as an R even though it ran on the Roman-numeral 5 route.
:-D Andrew
avid
Perhaps it should be signed as an R in Queens SB and as a V in Manhattan. (Queens NB doesn't matter.) That's easy enough to do with the R-46's -- leave the bulkhead signs at V or blank them out.
I wonder if extending the R (via V) to Church was considered. That way, through R passengers could transfer directly in Brooklyn rather than having to transfer twice.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering, all BMT service is local in Manhattan today, and the Q is terminating on the NB express track at 57th.
:-) Andrew
As for the public, if a V runs one weekend, they will then expect it to run every weekend and complain about the service cut when it doesn't; if the R runs somewhere other than its normal place, they just chalk it up to general Transit incompetence.
Umm...
Aren't the letters and numbers there so that people who know where the trains go can identify them?
For everyone else it's a major hassle.
For everyone else, it doesn't matter what the train is called.
Mark
Yes, but sadly most people wouldn't know what train to take to get to the Upper West side unless they were staring at a subway map. So saying "this train will be running along the 2 line" or "this train will be running as a V train" wouldn't be as helpful as just telling them where exactly it's going.
That begs another question: For whose benefit does the subway system exist - the crew office or the riding public?
(Depending on the answer to this question, my earlier question can be either answered or ignored.)
There is no doubt in my mind that the Crew Office and the bulk of the rest of the "innards" of NYCTA should see these trains as R. That doesn't mean that the trains need to be signed as such.
Mark
That reminds me of a combined R/E (Jamaica Center to 95th Street) a while back. A conductor on the F announced "If you're going to Jamaica Center, transfer here for an E train with R signs"! That totally confused everybody.
I agree with you but it looks like they want to keep the practice of keeping the letter V reserved for weekday service only. Yes when folks see a R on 6 Av they're like what the hell is this but remember there is no service to the 60 St tube this weekend.
That's IT?! Why didn't they just send the (R) through the 63 St tube? If the (Q) came into 57 just after the (R), it would get enough time to empty and relay before the next (R) comes in behind it.
Better still, run the Q via 63rd then on the R in Queens and terminate the R at Whitehall.
Obviously, there was more going on here -- like work at 57th SB.
In that case, the posted notices were wrong. If they can't even get the route straight, why worry about the letters? Just call it "some train," and be glad that it runs at all.
Mark
:-) Andrew
Isn't the difference that an E train to Whitehall St would be Express in Queens whereas an R train to Jamaica Center would be Local?
:-) Andrew
Ouch. I have a sudden urge to ride the J train.
The nighttime variant is still in use when 53rd has to be closed, but the daytime variant is different: the E runs, but it runs via 63rd and 6th and usually terminates at 2nd. I think that's extremely confusing -- especially those weekends that the SB F runs via Cranberry. The old variant should return, even though passengers from the Jamaica Center branch will have to either transfer or stay on the local.
I took and E to West 4th and then waited for an F. A bunch of people got on the next E heading to 2nd Avenue. The train and platform announcements were made when the train arrived, before the passengers came down the stairs. Then, another bunch came from the uptown plaform, having made the same mistake earlier. Later, there were passenger who got on the F, thinking the only way to 2nd Avenue was to go to Jay Street and come back to Manhattan. The GOs were just not well run.
When I left, there were R-32 trains on all three in-service tracks. Don't see that very often these days.
According to the SDEIS, the SAS will greatly relieve the 6 -- locals would only be half full in Manhattan (!!!). But the 4/5 would continue to be near 100% full from 125th to Union Sq.
If the SAS went north and captured the Pelham line, there would be no massive transfer from local to express at 125th, and the 4/5 would also have major relief.
Why isn't this proposed? Same amount of tunneling either way -- about 1/2 mile.
As long as two routes will probably use the upper portion of 2nd Avenue, there might as well be TWO northern branches. I'd like to see the following:
Branch 1: A new line continuing up Webster or Third Avenue, east under Fordham Road and Pelham Parkway, and then taking over the Dyre Line. That would let all #5 service operate on White Plains Road (weekdays) or not at all (weekends).
Branch 2: West on 125th Street at least to St. Nicholas Avenue (transfer to 8th Avenue Line); from there, either curve up St. Nicholas into the 8th Avenue Line, or continue to Broadway (and maybe across the Hudson?!).
There is where I come from ;-)
Also, turning westward would ease transfers to Metro-North and would permit a future extension across 125th Street.
Errmmmm... IINM they have to go to Times Sq anyway to get onto the West Side IRT - well unless you like lots of transfers (6 to 51/Lex, E to 53/7, B/D to 59/8, 1 to whereever) or going back to the Bronx (6 to 125/Lex, 4/5 to 149, 2 to whereever) or down to 14th or Fulton.
Better than the westside, where there's nothing between 59th and 168th.
The 6 could terminate at 138th. A cross-platform transfer could move people between SAS and the Lex (though the local).
That's hardly a way to attract riders from other lines. It's also hardly a way to attract support from the rest of the city.
I don't live near 2nd Avenue, but I'd like to be able to use the SAS on occasion. With your proposal, I'd have to either go down to Times Square and back up or make four transfers (no exaggeration: 1/9 to 2 to 4/5 to 6 to SAS). No thanks. While three transfers isn't much of an improvement, a westward pointing line at least has the chance of eventually making it to Broadway or at least Lenox.
In any event, capturing the Pelham is the implicit deal in the SDEIS anyway. The provision to do this is in the plan.
Since the SAS goes somewhere very different from the Lex express, I imagine that many will transfer.
And so will WPR and Jerome riders, if they're given the option. You're not giving them the option. They'll all stay on the 4/5 where they are already, even if they're going to 2nd Avenue, since they're cut off from the SAS.
As for crowding, no big deal for them. They have a seat (at least in mornings). But it IS a big deal for people trying to get on at 86th, 59th and particularly 42nd. Lex crowding is always used as the first argument for the SAS. To say a "crowded option" is not a problem creates the opportunity for many to say: then lets save all that money and build no SAS at all.
And by adding stops at the Lenox, St Nich and Broadway (in addition to Lex) you give many riders coming from the Bronx and Washington Heights) the chance to use SAS.
As I recall, the orignal MTA plan had the SAS using unused space on the Amtrak ROW to E180th, in part following the original NYW&B route. It would have recaptured only the portion of the Pelham line east of Whitlock. It also would have recaptured the Dyre. The IRT Pelham Line would have started from Whitlock, or perhaps from E180th via a shared track connection.
Recall that at the time, the "South Bronx" ended at East Tremont Avenue and the Bronx River, and the East Bronx was still primarily white and working to middle class. Crime was high. My guess is there was an attempt to allow East Bronx riders to bypass the area south of E. 180th Street and Whitlock on the IRT.
All this is less of an issue, now that Mitchell-Lama Land south of the Pelham is primarily Latino and the crime rate is down.
Back to your plan, it makes sense but then you would have to curve the SAS onto St Nicholas Av then build the station to provide a transfer then what would you do from there? Or do you have something different in this case.
WHY? Lots of people are advocating it because it could be done, but what benefit would it have? Does the Concourse line really need the maximum capacity in the rush hour?
Although that's besides the point, because it's not like the southern portion will ever be completed, and with only the north done, the (Q) alone will do fine with Stillwell/CI and 125. But hypothetically if the southern half ever got built, it would need more direct yard access.
I'm not a big fan of how the northern terminal will be configured, as it negates any worthwhile extension into the Bronx.
It appears that the design allows either alternative. The SDEIS shows tracks pointing northward for train storage, and also a curve west for the terminus at 125th St with tail tracks extending beyond the station. Hence, either alternative—northward to the Bronx or westward along 125th St—would be possible.
The advantage of the current proposal at 125th is that the transfer from either MNRR or 4/5/6 will be extremely short, making it a more attractive commuting alternative than if the SAS station at 125th had been pointed straight north.
When the Pelham capture goes into operation, few riders will want the last station on the western branch. Most will want the 18 stations of the Pelham line, and have to pile out at 116th and wait for a Pelham train. If the long-term plan is to capture the Pelham, might as well do it now and save $1 billion for the curve over to 125th.
Perhaps if the Second Avenue were built, providing easy access to East Side hospitals from MetroNorth, the health care industry would evaluate its costs based on the cost of housing in Westchester and Putnam, rather than assuming that their entire staffs have to live in the most costly neighborhoods in the United States.
Perhaps if the SAS is eventually connected to the Concourse line, the doctors will once again live in apartment buildings on the Concourse, as in the 1930s and 40s, instead of insisting on charging enough to outbid CEOs and Wall Street sharks for apartments on the UES.
That's just the problem. According to the SDEIS, the current SAS does NOT eliminate crowding on the Lex expresses. More have to be peeled off, and the Pelham capture is the only way I see of doing it.
Well I don't think that is a bad idea, it would help make travel across 125 St better and people won't have to ride the crosstown buses which takes time due to traffic. This would be done so that a westward extension would be easier and would probably have less costs in terms of construction.
If the line were to go further north, it might as well run to the Bronx via Webster or Third Av to wherever the northern terminal could be i.e. Gun Hill Road.
Well I don't think that is a bad idea, it would help make travel across 125 St better and people won't have to ride the crosstown buses which takes time due to traffic. This would be done so that a westward extension would be easier and would probably have less costs in terms of construction.
If the line were to go further north, it might as well run to the Bronx via Webster or Third Av to wherever the northern terminal could be i.e. Gun Hill Road.
It's an all or nothing proposition. The Pelham line will not be able to go to both the Lex and the SAS due to tunnel clearances. If its connection to the Lex is severed, then Pelham riders will have their access to East Side midtown destinations severely compromised.
The basic problem is that 2nd Ave is not particularly centrally located on the East Side. A 3rd Ave subway would have made much more sense. However, 2nd Ave was offered as a location while the 3rd Ave El still existed to facilitate construction. The 3rd Ave El hasn't existed for nearly 50 years but the planners have not realized this.
It would appear that the planners will repeat the same mistake made on the Upper West Side. They built a new subway on the periphery - CPW - not the core. Consequently, the CPW stations draw far fewer patrons than the old IRT line. Lexington Ave is centrally located between 1st and 5th Aves; 2nd Ave isn't.
Will UES residents go out of their way to ride the SAS to midtown locations that are also out of their way, compared to the Lex. If they behave like their fellow residents on the west side of Central Park, then the SAS will run nearly empty while the Lex will remain packed. Are the upper east siders willing to take a few extra steps on both ends of their trip? Those at 86th are not even willing to spend a few extra minutes in a comparitively empty local but jam into the express instead.
In the alternative, it makes more sense to connect to the Concourse Line, so that Concourse pax have an east/west option. The Pelham Line already goes to the east side, and another east side option for those pax is less valuable. Also, as Stephen Bauman noted, I don't think it would be operationally possible for Pelham trains to split between Lex and 2nd.
The basic problem is that 2nd Ave is not particularly centrally located on the East Side. A 3rd Ave subway would have made much more sense. However, 2nd Ave was offered as a location while the 3rd Ave El still existed to facilitate construction. The 3rd Ave El hasn't existed for nearly 50 years but the planners have not realized this.
You could argue the merits of 2nd vs. 3rd, but the question hasn't been ignored. The MESA study considered 3rd Avenue (not in depth, but it was looked at). The conclusion was that 3rd is just too close to Lex. No two existing north-south lines are as close to each other as 3rd & Lex lines would be. Also, I think that Stephen ignores many residential and work destinations on the far east side (e.g., the hospitals) that would benefit from the SAS.
We should also not forget that the existence of a subway line changes commuting patterns. The far east side will become more attractive once it is closer to mass transit.
I seem to remember that the Lex and the 3rd Ave El were as close. Indeed, when the Lex, 3rd and 2nd Ave Els were all operating, it was the 2nd Ave El that was the poor cousin.
I seem to remember that the Lex and the 3rd Ave El were as close.
Yes, it's certainly true that the Lex subway and 3rd Avenue El were very close together, but the 3rd El has been gone for five decades. The fact that it was once there doesn't mean that building its functional replacement is a good investment.
Indeed, when the Lex, 3rd and 2nd Ave Els were all operating, it was the 2nd Ave El that was the poor cousin.
But the 2nd Avenue El has been gone for over six decades. Demographics along 3rd, 2nd, 1st and York Aves have changed just a wee bit since then.
The analogy Stephen made between the 2nd Ave line and the CPW line isn't fair. While not centrally located, 2nd Ave has a lot of population density on BOTH sides, east and west. Many people living on York and First Ave will opt for the closer, newer and less crowded SAS, especially if it has the dual option of accessing the East side and West side of midtown (using the Broadway connection at 63rd St).
Whatever the reason, the result was that CPW can get customer from only one direction. Residents who are more than 1 avenue block from CPW are closer to the IRT.
This sounds like a valid argument, but the situation with SAS is different, because it can pull riders from both east and west.
The underlying principle is proximity to a stations from one's residence not the number of directions.
Consider the East Side and assume equal density between 5th Ave and the East River.
All residents west of Lex (3.5th Ave) are closer to the Lex, with some adjustment needing to be made the difference between 72nd and 68th Streets. All the residents between Lex and 1/3 of the way between 3rd and 2nd are also closer to the Lex. Only residents east of 2/3 the distance between 2nd and 3rd would be closer to an SAS station, with some adjustment to be made for 77th St which as no SAS counterpart.
Above 59th, my guess is that subway ridership is concentrated east of Park, at least below 96th Street. Densities are higher -- more singles sharing high rise apartments as opposed to really rich people in large apartments, as on Park and 5th. Not sure about Madison. Moreover, employment is concentrated to the east.
In Midtown, obviously the Lex has the better spot. It will continue to outdraw the SAS for that reason.
South of Midtown, it's probably even. You have another hospitals complex south of 34th Street and east of 3rd. You have a concentration of business activity in the Flatiron district, but the Lex isn't the only East Side subway there, as the BMT Broadway line moves on over.
Arti
I've taken the trouble to look at the census tract data. First, the census tracts cover two avenue blocks. Between 59th and 132nd Streets: 52,434 people live between Park and Fifth Aves; 65,563 people live between Third and Park Aves, 119,577 live between First and Third Aves and 79,703 live east of First Ave. I'm assuming that the census tract boundaries are in the middle of the street.
The biggest mistake of the CPW IND line was not necessarily it's location, but it's lack of express stops between 59th and 125th. An express stop at 96th St or 86th St would draw more passangers than the current local stops.
I doubt it. If you board a B or C local at 86th or 96th, it takes only 2 or 3 minutes longer to reach 59th than an A or D express that goes by at the same time. Between 96th and 59th is just 3 stops (86th, 81st, 72nd). Anyone who has the option to choose between the CPW and Broadway lines will quickly figure that out: it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Arti
If there were an express stop on CPW, the time savings would be in the wait, not in the ride. If you're ever waited at a CPW local station, you know how depressing it can be -- those stations are hardly cheery, and local service is fairly infrequent. That gives a slight push towards Broadway even to those who live closer to CPW.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I have rarely had a pleasant experience on the CPW line. The stations seem even more depressing and cavern-like when you have to wait for what seems like an eternity for a local train. Because I try to avoid it, I have to admit that I don't use it often, and most of the time when I do it is Saturday or Sunday, but it seems to never exceed the expectations I have come to expect. I would much rather walk to the Broadway-7th line if possible, as the experience usually seems to be much better.
Compared to the parallel IND express, not on weekends. IME, C's are less crowded than A's but more crowded than D's.
The IRT has the advantage of being first on both counts. On the other hand, I would argue that Second is central enough to the Upper East Side, which stretches past First to York, and for several blocks, East End. People coming from or going to points west of Lexington would tend to prefer Lexington anyway. The SDEIS Second Avenue plan does more to make the system accessible to additional locations than it does to relieve the Lexington line of its crowds.
Even a Third Avenue routing could share this problem, especially if the routes and stations proposed in the SDEIS are simply shifted one block west. The drawback is that the line would be out of the reach of people east of First.
On the Lower East Side, where Manhattan extends even further east, you could argue that what's needed is a First Avenue subway, not a Second or Third one. The Second Avenue el ran on First south of 23rd.
Will UES residents go out of their way to ride the SAS to midtown locations that are also out of their way, compared to the Lex. If they behave like their fellow residents on the west side of Central Park, then the SAS will run nearly empty while the Lex will remain packed. Are the upper east siders willing to take a few extra steps on both ends of their trip?
I agree, I don't think current riders will flock to the new line at all. I think that the SDEIS ridership forecasts are overly optimistic, and even they indicate little or no change on the Lexington express. But I think that this has little to do with the question of Second or Third, and a lot to do with settling for a kinda-local-kinda-express dirt trail instead of a proper trunk with adequate transfers and connections.
Mark
On LES the Lex is virtually on 33rd Ave.
Arti
They're more than overly optimistic; they're totally fabricated.
Consider Tables 5B-16 and 5B-19 in the SDEIS. They purport to compare the build/no build options in 2020 for Entry volumes at each of the Lex and SAS stations during the peak AM hour. One should expect that the total number of persons entering both the Lex and the SAS assuming the build option SHOULD equal the number of people entering the Lex assuming the no build option.
Here's the data for the Build option on the Lex: 1,350 (125th St); 1120 (116th St); 430 (110th St); 770 (103rd St); 1850 (96th St); 3780 (86th St); 3280 (77th St); 820 (68th) for a total of 13,400. The same data for the SAS are: 1680 (125th St); 2120 (116th St); 1580 (106th St); 7900 (96th St); 7090 (86th St); 4590 (72nd St) for a total of 24,960. This results in a total of 38,360 for the build option.
Here's the data for the no build option on the Lex: 2450 (125th St); 2250 (116th St); 820 (110th St); 1620 (103rd St); 7980 (96th St); 7140 (86th St); 6880 (77th St); 2460 (68th St) for a total of: 31,600.
That's an additional 6760 people using rail transit, assuming the build option from the same population. That translates to over 100 bus loads, so this discrepency cannot be explained by a modal shift.
The 6,760 sounds reasonable to me. Remember, this is for the peak hour. It represents everyone driven out of peak hour subway ridership by crush loading:
a) modal shift from buses.
b) modal shift from taxis.
c) modal shift from auto. This includes not only the small but rising number of rich people who live on the east side and drive, but also merely affluent people who drive to far east side destinations from elsewhere (ie. the hospitals, Rockefeller University, the U.N.).
d) modal shift from walking long distances, because one cannot stand having other people rubbing up agains oneself.
e) and, bet you didn't think of this, time shift to less convenient travel times, to avoid the worst of the loading. How many people are due at work at 9:00 a.m. to take the train early just to avoid the crush?
How many more people would be riding the Lex at peak hour right now, if it was closer to where they lived and less crowded?
Fewer than there used to be because the Upper East Side (5th Ave to the East River and north of 59th St) has lost population over the past 30 years. That's one of the reasons that Lex peak volumes have also declined over the same period.
Don't be fooled. While working on the census, we found that an increasing share of apartments on the Upper East Side are "corporate apartments" for those on assignment to New York. Thus, they aren't counted as housing units and their residents are recorded elsewhere, one reason Manhattan's population didn't go up strongly in the 1990s. My guess is some of these people just "live elsewhere" for tax purposes, perhaps one reason why Bloomberg was so crazed about the commuter tax.
But people are in those units, all right. The number of units keeps going up, and they are NOT vacant. And whereas before college graduates were sharing apartments on the UES, now they are sharing rooms.
Reasonable????
There are 50 local and limited buses currently operating on 2nd Ave during the peak hour. An average of 70 people per bus translates to 3500 people, leaving 3,260 people switching from taxis. That number of taxis would would mean that close to 10% of the operating fleet for the entire city would be operating on 2nd Ave!!! Not only is that implication not reasonable it's incredulous. :-)
I think the opportunities for increased housing development are rather limited.
In effect, rent regulations limit the ability to tear down old tenements and replace them with towers. You have to buy up buildings, and hold apartments vacant until they empty. This process takes years, often decades. As a result, zoning capacity, which is plentiful on many sites, is actualized very slowly. It is actualized quickly enough, however, for the UES to lead the city in new, unsubsidized housing units decade after decade.
If rent control ever gets abolished, I suppose there'd be a huge surge in construction. Not that it'll ever get abolished, of course.
That will chase the long-term renters away. Some will move to co-ops and condos, and there will be more room for short-term renters, but will the short-term renters outnumer the long-term renters? Perhaps, perhaps not. If not (and the developers make the correct prediction), then why would there be a huge surge in construction?
Abolishing rent control would have some interesting effects on the city. The loss of long-term renters would lead to a shift in civic participation. None of them would support the SAS, since, even if everything runs on schedule, they wouldn't see anything except the construction. If you thought NYC was short-sighted now, imagine what it would be like if it lost many of its voters who actually care about the future of the city.
There would also be major demographic shifts. In particular, neighborhoods would become demographically homogeneous. This may sound strange to someone who lives in a suburb, but many New Yorkers like their demographically heterogeneous neighborhoods.
Does rent control have to remain exactly as it is today? No, of course not. Does the city's health depend on the existence some form of rent control? Absolutely.
On the other hand, if many of these long-term renters decide to buy co-ops or condominiums, public support for the SAS and other transit/infrastructure improvements should increase. Owners have much more of a stake in an area's continued vitality than do even the longest-term of renters. And it shoud go without saying that the vitality of most NYC neighborhoods depends on quality transit.
Care to back that up? Because I don't believe it.
It should be extremely obvious. If you're renting, and the neighborhood (or city) starts to deteriorate, with the quality of life getting intolerable, you can get out pretty quickly and move elsewhere. If you're a homeowner (which in the NYC context may mean a condo or co-op) in the same situation, the area's deterioration probably means that the value of your property is going down too - in some cases, to the point that you owe more on the mortgage than the place is worth. You can be sure that homeowners will do anything to prevent that from happening. So yes, they have a far greater stake than renter.
Rent regulations have also inhibited construction. First, you can't evict to removed buildings and tear them down.
Second, while new buildings are exempt from rent regulation, potential investors know this could change at any time. Rent control had virtually no effect on new construction, because people believed that new buildings would be exempt. Then, in the early 1970s, rent stabilization was retroactively imposed on the newer buildings. Unsubusidized contruction of rental construction virtually stopped for two decades, before reviving in the past five years. But I wouldn't invest in it.
Only to someone who doesn't understand what it means to be a permanent resident in a rental.
If you're renting, and the neighborhood (or city) starts to deteriorate, with the quality of life getting intolerable, you can get out pretty quickly and move elsewhere.
Yes, and abandon the new kitchen I installed last year, and the bookshelves I installed the year before, and the new floor I installed the year before. (And, with rent control, revert to market rents in a new apartment.)
That's a costly move.
If it weren't for rent control, people wouldn't be making expensive renovations to their apartments, but instead would be more likely to buy. That's good for stability and civic-mindedness.
Try again.
There would also be major demographic shifts. In particular, neighborhoods would become demographically homogeneous. This may sound strange to someone who lives in a suburb, but many New Yorkers like their demographically heterogeneous neighborhoods.
I'm not doubting this assumption, but how would the loss of rent control make this happen?
Just a sidenote, suburbs are not all that "homogeneous" either, especially on Long Island, I guess depending on which neighborhood one is in. I probably live in one of the most heterogeneous neighborhoods in Suffolk county, both racially and economically. Also, in the school district in my area, there is probably the richest of the rich, going to school with the poorest of the poor, and there are few problems considering that fact (mandatory transit: the LIRR tracks kind of divide the poorer area from the non-poor area in a classic "right and wrong" side of the tracks scenario). This diversity is actually true for many areas of Long Island. Unless someone lives in Upper Brookville or some area like that, all suburbanites don't really live in a bubble anymore.
Some would argue that they don't!
There must be long-term tenants in other cities also.
They're a rarity outside NYC.
I think that one of the reasons many of the neighborhoods in New York look the way they do look and have abandoned buildings, is because of the surpressed rent market. The very people that it is supposed to help, are the people it hurts. When the rents are left artificially low, landlords have no incentive to maintain buildings, and builders have no incentive to add new buildings to the housing stock. This in turn leads to the housing shortage and also leads existing housing in older neighborhoods to fall apart and few new units to be built, and many people living in squalor in old run down buildings.
So they say, but I don't find the argument convincing.
Look around the city. Where do you find abandoned buildings, in neighborhoods where market rents have gone down or gone up? Where they've gone down, of course. But if market rents have gone down, then rent control doesn't have any effect -- although the landlords could legally raise their rents, they wouldn't find tenants if they did. So how is rent control to blame?
Rent control is a convenient scapegoat. It's easier to blame rent control than to blame insufficient school funding, or insufficient policing, or the dual effects of publicly funded urban highways (which make the neighborhoods they pass through less attractive at the same time as they make suburbs more attractive), or any of the countless other real causes for the decline of many of the city's neighborhoods.
It's supply and demand, if there are many rentals to choose from, people would have a choice, and landlords could not ask ridiculous rents, because the tenant would just choose a different apartment.
That's fine for short-term renters and for people searching for apartments, but a long-term renter who makes modifications to his apartment is in a vulnerable position: if the landlord raises the rent, the tenant can't simply leave without abandoning an expensive investment. Rent control protects the long-term renter from this risk.
It's when there is a shortage of rentals that rents become insane, which is exactly the problem New York has.
I agree that this is a problem, and that perhaps some modifications to rent control are in order, but rent control must remain in some form.
In many of the run down neighborhoods there has been much new construction, but look of what much of it has been: One and two family homes. That's great because it encourages home ownership, but it also lowers neighborhood density as these homes are replacing multi-family dwellings.
Why is home ownership great? In another branch of this thread I've been treated to a circular argument.
It's great that these neighborhoods are being revamped, but at the same time with lower density, available rental units also decrease (not that it really effects the recent past of some of these neighborhoods as these homes are really replacing burn-outs), but in general the denisty is lower than when these burn-outs were in use.
In those neighborhoods, yes, but the city's overall density is at its highest point in a century. (Much of that, of course, is due to low-density expansion into previously undeveloped sections of Staten Island, Brooklyn, and Queens.)
I'm not doubting this assumption, but how would the loss of rent control make this happen?
If rents in my neighborhood are on the rise, and my neighbor can't afford the new rents, my neighbor is forced to move elsewhere, and my neighborhood is left only with people who can afford the new market rents.
Just a sidenote, suburbs are not all that "homogeneous" either, especially on Long Island, I guess depending on which neighborhood one is in. I probably live in one of the most heterogeneous neighborhoods in Suffolk county, both racially and economically. Also, in the school district in my area, there is probably the richest of the rich, going to school with the poorest of the poor, and there are few problems considering that fact (mandatory transit: the LIRR tracks kind of divide the poorer area from the non-poor area in a classic "right and wrong" side of the tracks scenario). This diversity is actually true for many areas of Long Island. Unless someone lives in Upper Brookville or some area like that, all suburbanites don't really live in a bubble anymore.
You've made my point exactly. If the poor live on one side of the tracks and the rich live on the other, then they don't share a neighborhood. When I speak of heterogeneous neighborhoods, I mean that I live next door to or down the block from someone of a different demographic, not a few miles away.
I agree that this is a problem, and that perhaps some modifications to rent control are in order, but rent control must remain in some form.
I agree that they can't stop it cold turkey, the last time they did that they felt the need to start the Rent Stabilization program right after they got rid of the rent control through vacancy decontrol. Rent Stabilization has been modified over the years a bit, and more is necessary. It's a sticky situation as the system needs to be fair to both owners and tenants, owners groups try to the extreme to push it one way, just like the tenant groups try to push it the other.
Why is home ownership great? In another branch of this thread I've been treated to a circular argument.
I have not read the "branch" thread and don't have the time now, but home ownership is good because it does give people more of a stake in a neighborhood. While I completely understand your point about tenants making improvements to an apartment, it is still easier to walk away from the cost of improvements (no matter how that may hurt) than the remainder of a mortgage.
You've made my point exactly. If the poor live on one side of the tracks and the rich live on the other, then they don't share a neighborhood. When I speak of heterogeneous neighborhoods, I mean that I live next door to or down the block from someone of a different demographic, not a few miles away.
While the "cross the tracks" scenario may be true for the extreme poverty that is north of the tracks, it certainly is not a cut and dry slice. Near the water is of course an affluent area (as in most places), but even though my street is south of the tracks, it is surely north of the "great" neighborhood; it is hardly an affluent homogeneous area. In fact my street is probably more diverse both racially and economically than many Queens neighborhoods. I guess it's probably the transition area between the two neighborhoods.
This is a remarkable proposition, and surely wrong. A small minority of cities and towns in America have rent control. Is their health impaired as a result? I seriously doubt it.
What causes people to care about the city is that, for one reason or another, they expect to be sticking around. People have many motivations for doing so, not just that they're locked into a rent controlled apartment.
I can cite myself as an example. I am staying in New York because: (1) I like it here; and, (2) My career requires it. I am a renter, but I do not live in a rent controlled apartment. I believe there are many others like me.
Do they have large quantities of long-term renters? I seriously doubt it. The issue is simply not relevant if all the long-term residents own their homes.
I can cite myself as an example. I am staying in New York because: (1) I like it here; and, (2) My career requires it. I am a renter, but I do not live in a rent controlled apartment. I believe there are many others like me.
And would you continue to stick around if, each time you made expensive modifications to an apartment to make it more suitable for you, your landlord jacked up the rent?
No one would make such modifications. Instead, they would demand that landlords make them, or threaten to move to get a better apartment elsewhere. Under rent regulations, the rents are lower, but the landlord has no incentive to do more than the minimum legally required. You are stuck with each other.
(Do they have large quantities of long-term renters? I seriously doubt it. The issue is simply not relevant if all the long-term residents own their homes.)
One of the arguments for rent regulation is that the building owners own all the buildings, so opportunties for homeownership are diminished, and without the possibility of stability there is less neighborhood life. People want to lock being part of a community.
The fact that the market is not providing that opportunity is evidenced by the fact that there is a strong cost premium for ownership housing vs. market rate rents. Not so in most of the country -- owning is cheaper.
Back on topic -- how would ending rent regulation affect the subway? My guess is long time middle class residents in Manhattan and a (very) few outer borough neighborhoods would be forced to move. Given the mentality of such people, my guess is that many would leave the city rather than take a step down and live in (say) my neighborhood.
In general, such people will not be replaced by those more affluent than themselves, not in this economy. They will be replaced by those willing to live with less space in order to afford a higher rent.
Thus, more young people and more subway riders in Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, Forest Hills, and a few other nabes. Just my guess.
Really? You find me a landlord who will replace the kitchen sink with the one I want, or will install permanent bookshelves on the living room walls because I have a lot of books, or will split a large bedroom into two smaller ones because I have kids, or will combine two small bedrooms into one larger one because I don't.
I see these tenant-initiated modifications being done all the time in my building.
Under rent regulations, the rents are lower, but the landlord has no incentive to do more than the minimum legally required. You are stuck with each other.
That's fine. A long-term resident doesn't want the landlord to make extensive modifications to the apartment. Just make sure the common facilities are in working order and leave the apartment to the tenant.
Back on topic -- how would ending rent regulation affect the subway? My guess is long time middle class residents in Manhattan and a (very) few outer borough neighborhoods would be forced to move. Given the mentality of such people, my guess is that many would leave the city rather than take a step down and live in (say) my neighborhood.
In general, such people will not be replaced by those more affluent than themselves, not in this economy. They will be replaced by those willing to live with less space in order to afford a higher rent.
Thus, more young people and more subway riders in Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, Forest Hills, and a few other nabes. Just my guess.
Yes, with one caveat: these young people living in small spaces are not staying here permanently -- they're living here for a few years before starting familities and moving to the suburbs. The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them. They're more worried about the temporary inconveniences of SAS construction than they are about the permanent inconveniences if it's never constructed.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?
Such people are cash cows. Aside from Central Park and similar recreational facilities, about the only public service they use is the subway. Think about it. Aren't you one of them (or won't you be once gainfully employed)?
The city needs to be a city of young childless people, empty nesters, and commuters, so it can collect taxes without having to provide any services. All the money is needed for debt and the pensions of former public employees who have cashed in and moved away, leaving an underfunded pension plan.
At this point, this unfortunately isn't about what I want. You'd find that what I'd want is very different from top to bottom.
The question of who is more likely to support policies that impose sacrifices in the short run but make things better in the long run is an interesting one. I find such willingness to be limited across the board. Hence the suggestion that the SAS had best be accelarated to open up to 125th ASAP if it is to have any chance at all.
Not true, the popularity and upswing of neighborhoods such as Williamsberg, brooklyn heights, fort green etc is directly related to manhattan residents looking for less expensive housing. There is a large upswell of people who grew up in the suburbs that want to live in a more exciting place where there are activities for themselves and thioer children
Such upswings have revitailized neighborhoods, creadted jobs and yes increased subway usage.
"Yes, with one caveat: these young people living in small spaces are not staying here permanently -- they're living here for a few years before starting familities and moving to the suburbs. The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?"
First of all many of the young profesionals who move to to the city from all over the country and yes from the 5 bouroughs also pump tons of money into the economy and provide jobs for people of all races and religions.
The pay tons of taxes and don't use many city servies. This results in more services to the middle class residents of the outer bouroughs
many stay in the city and raise families. Some move to the outer bouroughs or the suburbs.
They often don't vote in elections. How else would you explain that most manahattan bourough presidents are from the northern part of the borough
"The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?"
The city's poling booths are currently dominated by the unions leadership who obviously do not care about the long term health of the city. They are not willing in any way to help the city out of the current finaicial mess which they have a bif interest in creating.
The average city worker bennifitrs and salary exceed $82,000 a year.
The cost of fringe benniftits have skyrocketed 90% in the last three years. Many of these fringe bennifts are available other places for free, are duplicated by multiple times by each individual union and are not used by many memembers. The costs of these programs are out of control and the union memeber is not getting any addtioal bennifit execept for a large tax bill
A 1997 law gaurentees all city retiree's an 8% return on their pensions and takes the control of hiring and management of the NYCRS from the mayor. Staff has tripples, returns have plumited. The city is stuck paying the difference. The end reult is the pension plan memember(for which I am) gets stuck paying more in his taxes.
The young professionals on the other hand pay through the nose in taxes. Take nothing, don't vote. Some are dumb enough to overpay for housing in a premium location. The end result is all good for long time residents.
The illegal immigrants do far more harm to the city. They pay almost no taxes, push labor rates down, drive up the cost of housing in the outer bouroughs that working class new yorkers would live in(mexican laborer's often pay $200 a person), contribute to the decay of housing due to the fact they don't complain to the city, and send much of their earnings back to thier country draining dollars out of the city economy. These migrant workers are a real problem.
I agree. And before some p.c. crap comes winging this way....remember, this country, like every other country, is composed of citizens. It's a crappy way to put it, but, basically, we agree to submit money to the "government" and in return get a fairly reasonable assumption that we will be allowed to pursue our interests unfettered by what ails most of the rest of the world. I.E., an unending struggle for survival in a realm of corruption, disease, poverty and uselessness. This system is what keeps us able to dream for tomorrow.
But you gotta be legal. I know, I know.....("oh, you CAN'T say that!!") but whatta we gonna do otherwise? Let this marvelous entity get diluted until it dies a sad death? I say no. The foot has to come down. Legal....or out.
I agree. And before some p.c. crap comes winging this way....remember, this country, like every other country, is composed of citizens. It's a crappy way to put it, but, basically, we agree to submit money to the "government" and in return get a fairly reasonable assumption that we will be allowed to pursue our interests unfettered by what ails most of the rest of the world. I.E., an unending struggle for survival in a realm of corruption, disease, poverty and uselessness. This system is what keeps us able to dream for tomorrow.
But you gotta be legal. I know, I know.....("oh, you CAN'T say that!!") but whatta we gonna do otherwise? Let this marvelous entity get diluted until it dies a sad death? I say no. The foot has to come down. Legal....or out.
1) Immigration advocates defend the interests of legal and illegal immigrants without distinction.
2) When public benefits were cut off for immigrants (including food stamps and Medicaid for those working), they were cut off for LEGAL immigrants -- who are not required to pay taxes when times are good, but do not get public benefits if they become injured or ill (food stamps were later restored). And all the civil liberties restrictions put on immigrants post 9-11 also apply whether legal or not.
Something wrong with that.
Arti
I'm not sure that's the case. I believe that if they meet the 10 year limit, they can return home and collect social security -- a good deal given relative purchasing power. Medicare is another matter.
I'm 100% positive (I have looked it up), that unless you are a citizen, you can't collect SS if you don't reside in US.
Arti
Yet more exploitation. As I said, legal has nothing to do with it, but it should.
Illegals can't pay income related taxes, so none of that would apply to them. A person who is forced to pay SS tax may have no intention to even live and work in US for more than a certain period of time, yet on has to pay SS tax, essentialy an insurance premium, but has no means of collecting the benefits.
Arti
I see these tenant-initiated modifications being done all the time in my building.
I sure hope they have the landlord's permission.
"Many a tenant has been burned by redesigning an apartment, only to be hauled into court by an irate landlord, ordered by a judge to pay for a reversal of the work and then slapped with an eviction notice. 'What a tenant may consider to be an improvement,' says tenant attorney Stephen Dobkin, 'a landlord may look at as a breach of the lease.'"
Source: http://www.timeoutny.com/features/343/343ft.apartstay.html
My parents own a two family home and once had a tenant install the most hedius tile's above the kitchen sink. Upon the tenant moving out, thier security deposit did not cover the cost of removing the tiles and resoring the kitchen to it's former condition. We had to haul the tenant to cour to recover the money needed to re-rent the apartment
With that said, rent regualtions can not be completly ellininated at this time. It would destabilize communites.
One aspect of the rent control/stabilization laws needs to be changed immediately is the right to sublease out your unit. Renters should not be able to sub-lease out thier apartment.
What ends up happening is that the new renter pays closes to market rate rent, The landlord does not have the income needed to properly take care of the building. Also rents for non rent control tenants is higher to pay for the rent control tenant that is subleasing his apartment out for
The current rent control laws as written do not give a landlord any incentive to provide more them minimal required services
The secound problem is that the cities building code laws have no teath. The city is nearly powerless to enforce it's building code laws. Violations can be issued, but it hard for the city to collect on them and/or hire crews to do repairs and charge the landlord the differnce.
This would significantly decreae the number of sub-par buildings becasue it would be far cheaper to keep one's building in compliance then to have to pay enfrocable building code vioations fines.
With fewer units falling off the market each year, owners will find it hard to raise rents as the shortage gets reduced.
New housing cost a fortune in this city due to the inflated rates the unions hold builders to
That is already illegal. As is having a rent controlled apartment and a second home where you spend most of your time. As is registering your car outside the city when you in fact live here. As is living outside the city for tax purposes when you live and work here.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
There are many people who can afford market rate rents that are living in rent stabalized apartmetns.
It is these often educated people who once in the apartment, sublease the apartment when they want a bigger space.
My freind John just moved into a rent stabalized apartment in Sheepshead bay. he is paying $600 a month for a one bedroom. He grnad ma lives in the building and he has been on the waiting list since college
He earns between $80-100k a year, is single and drives a BMW.
The Third Avenue bus runs uptown. We're talking about people on the from 68th to 125th Streets going to 59th or below. The Lex Ave buses also run downtown. However, the building of the SAS is unlikely to have much effect on its ridership. The York Ave bus connects with the 59th St station and is not included in either the build or no-build sets of figures.
There's also people who take the crosstown bus to the west side and then a subway down to midtown west. The crosstown buses are packed to the rafters between CPW and 5th Ave in rush hour in both directions.
It's a novel argument. There are only 3 transverse roads through Central Park. You're assuming that the buses are filled with passengers who are transferring to the west side lines to escape the crowded Lex. They might also be travelling in each direction because that is their destination and not downtown. My uncle used to live on E 78th between Park and Lex. He'd take the 79th St crosstown bus but his destination was Barney Greegrass not the IRT. :-)
I've personally observed droves of people getting off a westbound 79th St bus and going down to the B/C at CPW.
I didn't claim it's many people relative to the capacity of a subway system, just that it's one more way people travel that will change if there's an SAS. Certainly it's minor.
Which one did they close while I wasn't looking?
These crosstown buses are packed usually, and the dwell times at major subway intersections at CPW, Broadway, Lex are very large, due to the enormous amount of people getting on/off there to transfer to the trains.
A SAS route that goes crosstown across 125th st would greatly reduce this kind of traffic, and greatly help any uptown commuters go directly to the East side, without clogging the slow busses that plague many people's commutes.
Adequate transfers would make the full length more attractive to riders. Connections to the E/V at 53rd, 4/5/6/7 at 42nd and the L at 14th will increase the potential rider base to the SAS south of 63rd, St.
The SAS is doomed to fail in competition with the Lex because of it's no-express 2 track alignment. That'll keep almost all UES riders heading to Lower Manhattan on the Lex express, even if delays, curves, dwell times and overcrowding negate most of the advantage an express would have.
The 53rd and 14th St transfers will almost certainly be built. I would classify the 42nd St transfer as probable.
The SAS is doomed to fail in competition with the Lex because of it's no-express 2 track alignment.
Let's look at this a bit more analytically.
In terms of travel time, the SAS will be very much comparable to the Lex over similar distances, because: (A) it will use modern signalling technology; (B); it won't have the Lex's dwell time problems at 125th, 42nd, and 14th; and (C) the stations aren't as closely spaced as the Lex local, so there are fewer stops & starts.
People talk about the "perception" of an express being faster. But once the SAS exists, any commuter who has a reasonable choice of using both will try both. It doesn't take great intellect to figure out how much time you're saving/losing. And I suspect the SAS will simply be more comfortable—with new stations, roomer and less crowded trains.
For someone who lives south of 125th and east of 3rd, the walking distance to an SAS station will probably be no longer—and for many it will be shorter—than the walking distance to a Lex station. It's true that the SAS stations are more widely spaced than Lex locals, but the passenger will have less east-west walking. And remember that the north and south entrances of the typical SAS station will be 3-4 blocks apart, making the distance between entrances shorter than it first appears.
In the long run, you need to consider where the passenger is going, not just where he is coming from. Passengers destined for far east side locations (like Hospital Row or the Water Street corridor) will prefer the SAS, because it will go closer to those destinations. Passengers headed for many west side destinations will prefer the SAS's Broadway route, because it goes much farther west than the Lex. Passengers headed downtown who normally board the 6 may choose the SAS, because it provides a 1-seat ride south of the Brooklyn Bridge.
Passengers who normally take the 4/5 may initially prefer the Lex because it makes 3 or 4 fewer stops over the same distance, but they'll quickly figure out how much time that's really "saving" them. OTOH, passengers who normally take the 6 may prefer the SAS because it makes fewer stops. In the long run, I think "where they're going" and "where they're coming from" will dominate over the time actually spent in the train.
The SAS is being built to support 30tph. The only reason to build 4 tracks is if you believe that 60tph along 2nd Ave is necessary—not because of ridiculous perceptions that a 2-track service is too slow.
That's the downside. I'd be interested how the earlier SAS plans dealt with this issue. I'd be interested how THIS plan will deal with this issue, as they are proposing to build the provision to do exactly this.
Ideally, the SAS would capture the outside tracks of the 3rd Ave./138th St. station, and the 6 would relay in the center track. This would leave a cross-platform tranfer for Pelham riders to continue on to the Lex. But I'm not sure how feasible relaying on a single track would be.
As for budget, it should cost no more than the current SAS plan. Instead of 1/2 mile of tunneling west to build a station under the Lex at 125th, there would be 1/2 mile of tunneling north to build a station under the Lex local at 138th. (I see no need for a 125th St. station at 2nd Ave. -- at the entrance of the Triborough Bridge.)
That would leave the 6 with a 3 track terminal at 138th. There would be a direct transfer from Pelham to the Lex local. Since the default route to midtown and downtown for Pelham riders would be to stay on the SAS, the Lex express crowding should finally be eliminated.
I think it's time to point out yet another deep dark prediction buried in the depths of the SDEIS.
The ridership forecast, which some of us don't have too much faith in anyway, essentially says that most Lexington local riders and some new riders will switch to Second Avenue, and most Lexington express riders will stay put. This drops the golden volume-capacity ratio of the local during the peak morning hour to 0.6 with fewer trains, but leaves the express entirely saturated at capacity*.
What gets less focus is that the forecast also expects the Second Avenue line to be saturated with a V:C near 1. That doesn't sound like crowding has been eliminated. Where's the room for service to be expanded à la a Bronx connection? Where's the room for service to be expanded, period?
What's abundantly clear is that if a version of the line as flawed as this one is ever allowed to exist, then it can only exist in the form presented in the SDEIS. Forget about provisions for future expansion at the north end; they're only included for more sinister purposes. This is yet another reason I now favor building "wide" in chunks over hastily building "narrow."
* Just under capacity as opposed to just over, by virtue of a few extra trains being able to run, which owe their existence to decreased dwell times, which have reduced express ridership to thank. It's a nice theory, but I don't really buy it the way it's been presented.
Mark
Their numbers say the crowding on the Q will only be between 72nd and 63rd/Lex. With Pelham capture, it would likely move to 86th or 96th. They don't show what the Q will be like once it leaves the Second Ave. alignment, but I'm guessing many will cross-platform transfer to the F, and loads will be acceptable from there south.
(They also show high V/C ratios below 72nd on the it'll-never-happen T, but only because projections are based on 12 tph. Throw some Queens Blvd trains into that Queens-to-SAS connection, and those numbers will go down.)
Yes, crush loading between two or three stations, but a better level than the current crush loading from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge on the 4/5, or from 125th to 42nd even with SAS.
With a better SDEIS, we'd know the impacts of these alternatives, but as we know too well, they don't share info much. I asked what the ridership will be by station, and they said "wait for the FEIS."
I was worried that the "all or nothing" strategy could give us the latter. But MTA is being smart (this once), and are focusing on the segment with the most benefit. But this means that the lower part will have to stand on its own.
That is why the "T" won't happen: if the "Stubway" has (barely) most of the ridership at 1/3 the cost, then the rest has about the same benefit but with 2/3 the cost.
In other words, the lower part is twice as expensive per rider, and can't stand on its own.
In other words, the lower part is twice as expensive per rider, and can't stand on its own.
Almost exactly as I contended in In Defense of the Second Ave Stubway, only I claimed a 3-1 ratio.
From the SDEIS Summary:
"The northern and southern portions of the alignment would be designed so as not to preclude future Connections to the Bronx and Brooklyn. In the north, a bellmouth would be constructed along Second Avenue north of 125th Street as part of the proposed underground storage yard ... In the south, the Hanover Square Station would be constructed to allow for a potential future extension of Second Avenue Subway service to Brooklyn."
As a general rule, radial lines carry more passengers than orbital lines, because radial lines provide a direct service to the Central Business District. For that reason I prefer a northward (radial) heading of SAS to a westward heading. The SDEIS does not mention a westward extension, but does not "preclude" a northward extension into the Bronx.
Here are some possible ways to extend the SAS northwards:
(A) SAS extends north along Third Avenue to the 149 Street Hub (but does not capture the White Plains line, because SAS trains cannot share that line with the #2 west side IRT). #4, #5 and #6 continue unchanged.
(B) SAS extends north along Grand Concourse to 149 Street, where it captures the Jerome line. #4 terminates at 149 Street. #5 and #6 continue unchanged.
(C) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #4 continues unchanged. #5 becomes Lexington local. #6 ceases to exist.
(D) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #5 continues unchanged. #4 becomes Lexington local. #6 ceases to exist.
(E) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #4 and #5 continue unchanged. #6 terminates at 125 Street.
Of the above, (A) and (B) would be expensive; (C) and (D) would be unpopular; so I choose (E), which is what Simon said.
It should not be a huge engineering feat to perform the actual capture of the Pelham line. Platforms would be shaved back to accommodate the larger trains, but no new stations would be needed. The SAS tunnel would be extended from the bellmouth at 125 Street to some nearby point where it could merge with the existing Pelham line to complete the capture.
I don't think they'll go to 96th, as they will be very close to the 1 mile that's done, then they've got 96th plus two other stations to build, rolling stock, etc. Past 86th, they'd also have to switch digging methods. So they are cutting it off at 86th. It comes down to money, and how much they can get out of the Feds. So far:
* NY is getting billions for WTC transit.
* NY is asking for billions for ESA.
OK, we're asking for alot, but in the upcoming ISTEA authorization, we're focused on SAS, right? No:
* NYC is asking for billions for LIRR to downtown.
* NJ is asking for billions for a new tunnels under the Hudson (ARC).
* NY delegation seems most focused on billions for a new freight tunnel. Weird.
* oh, and "some Manhattanites" want bazillions for SAS.
We'll do well to get to 86th. (In the meantime, I'd like the FEIS to show how to properly interact with the Lex for whenever we finally get the Full Length Stubway.)
I haven't heard that anyone is actually asking for money yet. It's being studied. I think some people think it could come out of the 420 billion FEMA money. I doubt it'll go anywhere if it has to come out of the same pot as ESA and SAS.
I haven't heard that anyone is actually asking for money yet. It's being studied.
I think it goes without saying that the "asking" will soon follow. Pataki and Bloomberg have both more-or-less said so, and without funding the study is an academic exercise that goes nowhere.
I'm afraid I don't grasp the benefit of this. Pelham riders would lose their Lexington Ave ride, and would be routed down Second Ave instead. This could be good or bad news, depending on where you're going, but on the whole I suspect more people's commutes would be impaired than improved. At the end of the day, how is this a net improvement to the transit system?
On the whole, connecting the SAS to the Concourse Line seems like a better deal, since it would give passengers in that corridor an east side option that they don't currently have without transferring at Yankee Stadium.
The purpose of this proposal is to make the overall system more efficient. More transfer options are nice, but the SDEIS indicates major crowding continuing to exist on the backbone of east Manhattan transit, the Lex expresses. Capturing the Pelham line should alleviate this. Pelham riders needing UES Lex stations can easily transfer to it at the 6's new 138th St. terminal.
The Concourse is an IND line, requiring no modification for SAS trains; but it runs close to Jerome Avenue, and has a transfer to the Jerome Avenue line. The SAS would offer a third service to this already well-served corridor, which seems excessive. A long new tunnel would be needed to connect the SAS to the Concourse line, which would be expensive.
An SAS extension along Third Avenue to 149 Street (the Hub), with a station at 138 Street, would provide useful new connections, and nobody would lose, but that too would be expensive.
So I am now more inclined to think that the "no-build" extension might be the best!
And I wonder how it would be done logistically? There would probably be a long period of time while Pelham service was either crippled or unavailable while the stations were rehabilitated. I don't think you could sell it in the community.
Exceptionally Lucid Equipped Vehicle Automated To Operate Regardless.
Ie.: E-L-E-V-A-T-O-R.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
-Stef
Although, I would like to know when 6688 will be getting her new coat of paint. I would like to try to make that function.
Thanks,
Paul
It's coming along nicely at this time Paul. Stef and helpers have
been working Wednesdays on 6688 since April. There were some wet and cooler days, but 6688 has received a basic final coat on one side. Side door glass has been replaced and transfered with existing side window sash recently obtained from scrapped R-22 work motors. Stef, has been called upon for other civic duties for now, so Wednesdays are on hold for a few weeks.
But I understand, some of the other usual culprits will be about this
Saturday and could use some extra hands willing to get dirty in
applying paint and other tasks. All SubTalkers are welcomed to
participate. Email, Thurston, Stef or I privately if interested.
8-) ~ Sparky
Getting off the subject of RT cars for a moment, but sticking to railcars and
how storage of same is applied at different museums.
At Branford, it brakes not set and chocked. At Seashore, it brakes
not set and trigged. At Rockhill, where I'm now in training, passed
the written, "ALL CARS" are parked with the "Handbrakes SET".
I'm having a blazt, with different folks, a huge selection of varying
equipment from diverse systems. Variety is the spice of life.
Looking forward to the month of June, starts with "The Trolley Era Showcase" at Branford, May 31\June 1. MOD IND trip on June 8 with the Mrs. [Other things to tend do on Saturday, June 7, so will be missing the SMEE MOD Trip], Rockhill Trolley Museum, June 14 & 15, further training. EBT across street will be in operation also with #14 steaming. Back to Branford on June 21 & 22 for the next subway weekend & guest operators. Then June 28 & 29, the IND cars on Saturday & SMEEs on Sunday. What a month of railfaning. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
What amused me about Branford was how much the OPERATING rules are like NYCTA - safety of course, and how different other rules were (MUCH more reasonable) ... it's a VERY good balance of safety and common sense.
My motor instructor in schoolcar told us horror stories of FREQUENT runaways on the Rockaway line from the layup yard, a serious rollaway wreck in 1937 (somewhere in lower Manhattan I think, but don't remember exactly where it was) and imbued the fear of GHOD in us about making sure that "at least THREE" handbrakes were set on the Arnines. When the tank goes to zero, they'll MOVE with or without benefit of human intervention.
And in that simple common sense way that Branford does things, I *like* the idea of the chocks. Properly applied, they do the job since the trackage is fairly level, and if you screw up, 'tis better to have your chops busted about that "crunching noise" than to put a rig on the ground because you didn't do your walkaround properly. Pretty slick, actually. One of the problems with handbrakes is that you have to have the SENSE to do a rolling brake test (assuming that the car moves at all in switching and that ain't enough of a hint) ... with amateurs, I can see where that could result in flat wheels without adequate supervision.
This is the same policy BTC had. Some things never change.
As to chocks/trigs at BSM, never, never, never. Several of us had bad experiences with chocks in BTC days. Chocks were supposed to be used, but with streetcars it was hit or miss. (Required on the buses.) Some guys would chock cars on trailing axles or chock on the wrong side. (Chocks were supposed to be used on the leading wheel, right hand side.) One day, I went to move a car out of the back of 3 bay to the door. Checked the lead wheel, no chock. Pumped the car up, released the handbrake, released the air brakes and took power. BANG!!! The back of the car rose up and slammed down. Dumped the air, went to the back, finding ther splintered remains of a chock. Damned idiot had chocked the car on the first wheel, third axle. LEFT hand side.
I HATE chocks.
Thanks for the input. BTW, I've made a few splinters with chocks at
Branford over the years, which were placed where not expected.
The "trigs" at Seashore are much larger then the chocks at Branford,
so all I'll say is "kaboom", if you try and ride over one.
Currently, RTY has no handbrake vehicles, so it's handbrakes set.
But, another question, are the "Armstrong Brakes" on air brake
equipped cars, "Handbrakes a\o Parking Brakes". The one's that
are not of the Gooseneck Variety?
8-) ~ Sparky
The United simply added the air brake cylinder to the same brake rigging and the associated one-man equipment and air brake stand to the platforms. The hand brake stands and handles stayed.
It's technically an air brake car, but parking it is the same as any hand brake car - brakes fully released.
As I said, the carhouse is flat, so nothing rolls.
4533 was a bitch when first released after restoration. Refused to stop on the number 2 end (take a full bite, put in lap, wait), grabbed on the number 1 end. Took the Shop two months to finally get the car right, including rebuilding both brake stands and adjusting the slack in the rigging. BTW, on a Brill 21 truck, the slack adjusment is manual and works on the diagonal.
The adjustment on the #1 end adjusts the slack on the #1 and #3 wheel, the adjustment on the #2 end adjusts #2 & 4. and the adjuster are on the left side of the truck on each ed. Go fig.
4533 spent from 1939 to 1963 as the rail bond tester, numbered 3550. It was run from the #2 end and carried a four-wheeled trailer under the #1 end. (The body was jacked up 6 inches to clear the trailer, when we restored the car we removed the extra height.) Since it was never operated from the #1 end until April 1970, when the car became the first car to operate at BSM, nothing was done to the #1 end's brake stand until much later.
First you cut out a door control breaker in the cab on me, now this. Give me a brake.
Rim shot!
I'd like to have kids someday, if I ever get married.:)
-Stef
I take it the hose died RIGHT at the connector? And I trust you guys have some more garden hose for it? :)
Sorry I missed you Jeff, Sparky, Lou and anyone else.
BTW: As usual, the Yellow DCAS card had the D and Q trains to Kings Highway as travel directions, and ommitted the B31 bus as well. DUH!! Aren't we in year 2003 and not 2001?
I'm not sure if I'll have access to SubTalk while I'm gone, but if I do, I'll be posting. If not, I don't think I'll really be missed. Just two weeks.
Jimmy
You know how to strike laughs!
They're a NICE ride. Bigger foamer glass than those damned redbirds. And if you're REALLY good, I'll show ya WHY I consider the redbirds to be like the 142's now. Give you a closeup tour of LoV and HiV, what was BEFORE dem boidies ... MUCH nicer!
But I'd be HAPPY to PERSONALLY take the boy for the ride of his life. Heh. Or better yet, we hand over the motorman's hash pipe to Unca Dougie, with Cohiba in (wrong) hand ... oh wait, you weren't on board for THAT adventure were you? Boowahahahaha ... Unca Selkirk separates the republicans from the democrats through the power of centripetal force. Hell, I'd *PAY* for that! Heh.
I'll settle for E above middle C on the straightaway.
Typical sight on the Slum-Beach Line. That is why Fred knew he was near "home" and the N line.
Add this to the solution. Sprague can be renamed Coney Island and put a bumper block at the end of track. And have a Nathan's Hot Dog Stand either at Sprague or in the yard. Rename "Stony Creek" to "Coney Island Creek".
If that doesn't bring Fred across the country, nothing will.
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Best of all, Acrobat Reader is 100% FREE!!!!!!
Hop on the Adobe site and get it!!
8-) ~ Sparky
It is unknown what will happen to the Amber PL signals still around HUDSON, a few have already been replaced with Amtrak CzPL's. The HUDSON-exit signals shown in my following tribute seem most vulnerable as that section of track might give way to 'C' signals at the entrance to HUDSOn interlocking.
Anyway, my tribute is located at http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Just scroll down to the HUDSON pics. They are clearly labeled.
The article is below, a 17 page Adobe PDF file.
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/transrapid-jettrain.pdf
Anyway, the DHS approved $65 million for states to improve mass transit security, part of the overall federal funding for transportation security. The release says:
"The $65 million will be provided through the States to the highest risk transit systems in the country. States could used 20 percent of the award for each transportation agency to compliment state assest at those sites. Allowable use of funds would include:
- Installation of physical barriers.
- Area monitoring systems, such as: video surveillance, motion detectors, thermal IR imagery and chemical/radiological detection systems.
- Intergrated communications systems.
- Opperational activities conducted during ORANGE alert from January 2003 through April 2003 (overtime, limited to 10 percent of the gross award).
If not already completed, each transit system would be required to conduct an assessment and preparedness plan on which to base their resource allocations.
The pertanent numbers, as far as funding for the NY/NJ Metro area goes are:
New York City Transit -- $26,662,867
New Jersey Transit Corp. -- $2,346,366
New York City Department of Transportation -- $1,389,487
Long Island Railroad -- $1,120,414
Port Authority Trans-Hudson Corp. -- $877,356.
Chicago received just over $5 million, for the next highest award after NYC Transit, while Los Angeles received $4,577,600 for the No. 3 spot.
The NYC subway should be seen for the history and arts contained within not just another way to work or school.
I have been in az 22 years but New York City is still My Home.
Mostly those who led and lived in New York State before 1930, also the period when the city's water system, education system, parks and other facilities were built up.
Some credit goes to those who have been here since 1982. For just about everyone in the New York region, transit, not highways, has been the priority.
Those who ran the city and state from 1930 to 1980, on the other hand, deserve blame for the fact that the system isn't better than it is.
Mark
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
(my website is temporarily f'ed up)
Hmmmm :-)
Asbury Park Press Story
Home News Tribune Story
Star Ledger Story
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
By reading they stay awake and alert.
The average time a NYPD officer spends at that post is 1 hour. They do varied assignments and spending only an hour or two at a fixed location is no excuse for reading on the job, unless the station is closed due to a G.O.. When there is no one on the platform then I understand at that point boredom sets in.
If an officer gets bored at post when the station is busy, then that officer cannot be at post in one place, no excuses.
I got a bit nervous when I saw a cop sitting on the platform, but he was too engrossed in his newspaper to bother watching for people like me.
The seats were designed for abnormally skinny, narrow shouldered people. Now the TA is out to penalize passengers based on their body type... I suppose that on the IND cars that have long benches and not "partitioned" seats, it is the judgement of the cop that determines if a rider is wide enough to be ticketed. Do they train cops to spot such violators? Perhapse the TA could equip cops with yard sticks to help make this determination.
On the New IRT trains with the seats down at the ends that fold down, where these designed for 1 or 2 or 3 people? They need to post a sign so that we can avoid being ticketed.
If there are official restrictions on how much seat space you take up then there must also be restrictions as to how much standing room you take up. Passengers with packages, bikes, and strollers are the most obvious violators here, though apperal and body type might also affect compliance. What about passengers that sit in a seat but have a package at their feet taking up valuable standing room?
They need to post these rules and regulations in each of the various types of cars.
I highly doubt it if police officer are writing tickets when a larger persons body overhangs a seat.
If they were doing this thier would already have been a few lawsuitsd. Especially in this city with so many under employed lawyers looking for a case to bring to court
As for the people who put thier feet up, or thier bags across the seat, lets say they were warned a few months back. I have to say I am more contious of resting my bag on the seat next to me or putting my feet up.
Although it is comfortable to put one's feet up on r68 foward facing seets. Ones feet are often dirty and wet. I would not want to clean uo the seat with my pants or jacket
Why aren't more police officers issuing summonses for people who have half of their upper bodies leaning over the edge of the platform? THAT is a more serious safety issue than someone putting their feet up on a seat on an otherwise empty train.
We are seeing more and more smokers on the subway, especially in the stations outside the paid area and the cops just look the other way.
I am yet to see a cop bust someone's head open for playing their walkman too loud of for blocking the doors or for running down the stairs.
This is why they need to post the rules in more specific and legal terms.
Last I heard, it wasn't just POLITE not to put your dirty feets where someone else was planning to sit - before the leash laws, it was an invite to your own personal Bernie Goetz episode. It's rude to do that for one, and unsanitary as well.
Now before I come off like a pooper (I'm old school I guess, but respect for the subway car and your fellow citizens should be habitual rather than enforced) ... MAYBE they'll do something about the battery dewds and dewdettes, the panhandlers and the bible-thumpers as well.
You pays your money for a ride. In peace ... and footprints on the seats DO cause damage to suits and dresses that land in whatever yer shoes have that are for real - so I can see the point to it, though there's many OTHER "quality of life" issues that need addressing as well. If they go after them all with equal vigor, then I don't have a problem with those putting their feet up on seats getting a ticket *TOO* ...
Damn ... hate to sound like a grouch here, but I'd never do that. Leg stretched, perhaps if the seating allowed that, but bottoms of shoes, never did that.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Walking from car to car while the train is in motion.
2. Having at least one foot ON the yellow tactile strip if the train is not in the station.
3. Carrying an open cup, can, or bottle of any type of beverage, even water.
4. Standing in front of the open door when people are trying to get out.
5. Pushing people aside, not letting them out (Misdemendor Assault?)
6. Operating a walkman audiable to others.
7. Using a speakerphone in the process of a call (noise, do you hear this Nextel?)
8. Leaning over the edge of the platform.
And at 19 and tall and rather thin, I wasn't THAT imposing a figure when I did so. Folks would PHEAR me now. Heh.
Moo.
Passing between cars of a moving train is one thing. Cops probably have to do that from time to time in the performance of their duties. Otherwise, they should be setting good examples for the riding public.
As far as the subways, I've seen police officers smoking on platforms-especially elevated ones- and in stairways and passageways.
A couple of police officers with whom I'm friendly concede that many of their colleagues regularly indulge in activities that would earn civilians summons or arrest for a simple reason: BECAUSE THEY CAN.
Not only have I seen cops smoking but I have seen a cop clipping his nails onto the floor of the IRT and another time there was a cop eating sunflour seeds and spitting the shells onto the floor of the car.
These are the ticket writers.
You should be happy about that; he isn't taking up a space that you could use. And I'm sure if there's a fire, his windows would get broken like anyone else's :).
That WOULD be nice, especially the latter two items. There are rules on the books prohibiting disruptive behavior- something a lot of these preachers most definitely indulge in. Teenagers performing gymnastic and/or rap routines under loud boom boxes also fit into this category.
There must be some rule against blocking platforms and passageways, in which case those vendors who spread out blankets on which to display their wares IN RUSH HOUR must be fair game. This would especially apply to the platform at Lex/60; connecting passageways to the 7 at Grand Central and 5th Avenue; and stairway landings at many station entrances. These areas are already crowded enough without precious space being taken up by bootleg videos- and the people who stop to check them out.
If the police are going to give out tickets to people who put their feet on seats (certainly a sanitary nuisance) in empty cars, then what about people who put their packages on the seats next to them in a car full of standees? The city's budget deficit would quickly turn to a comparable surplus if this were enforced- especially on weekends.
--Mark
Which reminds me of the dining room table I saw on a NB 1 train in upper Manhattan a few months ago. I hope it was going to 242nd, since it wouldn't have fit through the HEETs at the stations along the way. (I saw it at 215th.) I'm surprised it fit onto the train to begin with.
A few months ago, I exited at the 50th st. end of the 51st st IRT station, and as I reached streetlevel, I was blocked by a rolldown gate. Since I couldnt exit I went back downstairs, and there was no clerk there, so I jumped over the turnstyle, and was stopped by an undercover cop. The cop was about to write me a ticket, and I tried to tell him what happened, after about 5 minutes of arguing, I convinced him to check the gate, after he realized that I was correct, he was very apologetic.
You should report this serious matter to Stations, it is a reckless disregard of safety, someone could've been a victim of a violent crime, had the station not be busy as it always is.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
There are now one or two trains of R-62's on the 3, but I don't think the flat-seats have moved off the 4. Eventually they'll be on the 3, of course.
R46 6078, it has a Brown Diamond R on the front bulkhead
R36 9577 with the robin's-egg-blue windowsills
And the R32 (cannot remember the number) that had a bench seat in a seafoam green color as opposed to the usual gray.
R-32
Wasn't there a R40 Slant that had the Broadway lines in the same deep orange-yellow color? I remember seeing it once or twice on the N, and on NYCRail.com's messageboard there were a lot of posts about whether the "N" was in Brown (for Nassau) or in dark yellow (pre-1979 color)
wayne
Peace
David
Are the 10 experimental R38 AC propulsion cars still running?
The R40/42 mixed marriage (4464/4664) set is still in service, although I'm not sure if it's at CI or ENY.
Since they were converted back, they were once again slow sluggish field shunted.
R-32
R32 #3822 (maybe 3922) - one of the windows were restored back to pre GOH style-two window panels at the top as opposed to one.
*These cars are the R32GE cars which have a stainless steel sill covering the upper part of the carbon steel doorsill.
**These cars may have been scrapped. I have not seen them in service in a few years.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Flushing, Main Street
Times Square, Manhattan
Then as I was going up the stairs at Main Street, I spotted a R62A (couldn't get the number) that had a sign from a R62. Looked something like this (pretend the font is Aksidenz)...
Main Street Flushing,Queens
Times Square
Manhattan
I'm guessing it was discontinued because of merge constraints, or because of the lack of capacity at any of the available northern termini. Was this in fact the reason?
There is that, and the fact that Broadway Brooklyn trains have only eight cars, while the V has 10. They'd probably have to run the J/Z (12 tph) through to Queens Blvd. if anything, leaving only the M on the Nassau Loop.
This might be worth doing if the Montigue Tunnel were connected to the Atlantic Avenue branch, as discussed extensively here. The LIRR connector service would relay north of Chambers on the pre-Chrystie Manhattan Bridge connection tracks. That service, with the M, would provide 18 trains per hour on Nassau Street from Downtown Brooklyn and Jamaica. On the other hand, Broadway-Brooklyn service would be 2/3 Midtown 1/3 Downtown, a better split than today.
I have seen reference to that plant a couple of years of ago, but I would be interested in seeing how they would plan to build it now that all the money has been spent on the new LIRR Brooklyn Terminal.
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 10 TPH
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 8-9 TPH
Comments, anyone?
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 6 TPH
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 8-9 TPH
Comments, anyone?
This plan would be better if it were to turn at Rego Park and head down the Rockaway ROW to the Rockaways, giving a new designation. Also why would you let the (C) go to 207, let the (A) contiune going to 207 and the C terminates at 168 St.
The (F) going via Crosstown don't count on that and letting the (V) take the load of handling passengers and its a local via 6 Av forget about it. I say let the V head to Metro Av, Broadway Junction or use the long disused Canarsie-Jamaica connection to run via the L to Rockaway Parkway.
By "Crosstown" I meant the segment from Bergen to Church. Sorry for the confusion. The "Culver" line technically doesn't start until Ditmas, so "Culver Express" means it runs express from Church to KH, Crosstown Exp means it runs from Bergen to Church express. F on the G? Now why in the world would I do a thing like that?
Also why would you let the (C) go to 207, let the (A) contiune going to 207 and the C terminates at 168 St.
As I have said (see my other posts) the 1 extra C consist allows the C to go to 191/200/207 all day to make up for the 5 daily A trains lost to the E.
IIRC, that section is AKA "The Smith Street Subway". >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
You will also get people BS-ing that actually using the flying junction at W4th St causes delays.
Actually there's a real problem: does C (7/8) + F (14) + V (8/9) even fit? It's 30tph, so it would be tight.
Also C (7/8) + J (6) + M (10) + Z (6) is 29/30tph which may be pushing the Willy B a bit.
I'm sorry, but this plan just cries waste of rolling stock!
The 1 tph extra E will come from the F that loses 1 tph.
By improving the practices at 179 St terminal, the V to 179 would be feasible. The difference between going to 179, empty, turnaround and 71, empty, turnaround is one of time, and the 1-2 extra trainsets needed for that would come from excess F's.
The E to Rock Park will come from the A no longer going there (although only every 2nd-3rd train would go through).
By combining the C and M, the M isn't needed west of Essex and the C isn't needed south of W4, so that frees up their rolling stock. The C's would all go to the E, and some E's may turn at Canal or WTC to prevent saturating the Cranberry/Fulton merge or providing too much Fulton service, so no extra cars will be needed.
This leaves the M's rollingstock for travels between Essex and Bay Parkway. That's about 6 trains, or 48-64 cars, which would be used to extend the G to Church (most needed would be 2 trains = 8X75' = 600' = 10 of those 48-64 cars). The rest would go to extending the V, and maybe two or three more trains would be needed. Scratch the M to Chambers during rush.
So that requires about 38 more (60') cars. Another 80 if you keep the M to Chambers.
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
What line would serve WTC? True it's not busy now. But what happens when the towers are rebuilt?
(A)(B)(C)(D) unchanged
(E) variant 1: Jamaica Center - Queens Exp - 8th Av Lcl - WTC - 6tph
variant 2: Jamaica Center - Queens Exp - 8th Av Lcl - Cranberry - Culver - CI - 6tph
Variant 2 does not operate nights or weekends.
(F) withdrawn
(G) unchanged
(J) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Jamaica Lcl, skip-stop when (Z) runs - 6tph
(L) unchanged
(M) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Metropolitan - 6tph
Nights and Weekends Broadway/Myrtle - Metropolitan only
(N)(Q) unchanged
(R) nights and weekends Northern Terminal switched to QBP
(S) Essex St - Broad St - 10tph - Monday thru Friday 7am-7pm
(S Rock Pk)(S Franklin) unchanged
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 53rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Culver - CI - 8tph
(W) unchanged
(Z) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Jamaica Skip-Stop - 6tph - Monday thru Friday 7am-9am, 4pm-6pm
What's serving Nassau 7pm through 7am and on weekends?
wayne
There is no increase in J/Z service. The extension over 6th Av and QB is as a replacement of the F train.
The J and Z, surprisingly enough, using the Chrystie St connector, being the entire point of that post.
As far as the real area of contention, south of West Fourth, the problem you would have long-term with such a plan is from the downtown real estate people and the Lower Manhattan Redevlopment Corp. folks around the WTC site, who would complain about a loss of service to Chambers on the local -- under your plan, nothing at all would terminate there during peak use hours. Also the A and E combination through Cranberry would be pushing the limit on TPH during rush hours, since there are more E trains during rush hours than there are C trains, though the MTA would have the option of short-turning 40-50 percent of the E trains at Chambers-WTC, which would solve that problem and partially solve the WTC terminal platform question.
The other problem, as already mentioned in another reply, is the West Fourth-B'way Lafayette bottleneck. Can you fit all the F trains, all the V trains and all the C trains onto one track during rush hours? It's certainly not impossible to put three lines onto one track -- the B/D/Q shared trackage from DeKalb to Rockefeller Center for years -- but as with merging the E and A south of Canal, you'd be cutting it close.
The only consistent problem is the W4 bottleneck. And if on 4th Ave, the R can run less than 1/2 a station behind the M in rush hour, and the N can run 1/2 station behind that R, the merge can be done right. There is a platform at both levels of Bergen and Bway/Laf. Every other F can wait for the V to cross in front at Bergen, and every other F can wait at 2nd for the C to cross. (This is assuming a delay, because with proper scheduling nothing should be timed to wait at all). Southbound the F can wait at 57/6 so V's keep moving and don't interfere with the E, and the only (serious) problem that leaves is the C/E and F/V southbound at West 4th. (Northbound E can wait at Spring.)
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local. 1/2 of (E) trains turn at WTC to avoid oversaturating Cranberry/Fulton or severing WTC platform.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(G) 71 Av-Church Av (wkdys) or Smith-9th (other times)
normal route
24/7
peak hrs ( < 30 TPH - R TPH - V TPH) = G TPH
============NOT NECCESSARY============
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 3 TPH
========================================
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
There's no reason to extend the C to 207th. The A handles the north end of the line just fine, and, knowing IND passengers, nobody will take the C anyway (except for the handful going to CPW local stations), even though it only takes 3 minutes more than the A to get to Midtown and it might meet a D at 125th.
Your C only runs weekdays, and your optional M only runs rush hours. What covers nights and weekends, a C shuttle?
Turning alternate E's at WTC will create confusion at Canal. Anybody who takes the wrong train has an annoying transfer at WTC/Chambers to get back on track. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but you asked for flaws.
When Rockaways service was reorganized in 1992, one of the selling points was the direct express service from Rockaway Park. You're replacing it with direct local service -- and with much more service than is needed.
Switching the C at W4 will cause occasional merging delays. Again, it can be done, and it may well be a desireable service pattern overall, but delays themselves are never good.
Look at the Kings Highway area track map. How would you switch the NB F from the local track to the express track? It can't be done anymore. Either a new switch would have to be added or the V would have to run through to Stillwell to cover the remaining local stops.
When Jamaica Center first opened, the rush hour R ran local to 179th and the F ran express, but complaints from passengers at Hillside local stops (which until then had always had direct express service south of Continental) did away with that service pattern. You're restoring the same pattern. In addition, your extended V will get hopelessly delayed at Continental behind G's and R's preparing to relay.
Jamaica Center can only handle 12 tph. At least 4 tph of your E would have to run to 179th (or elsewhere).
There's no reason to extend the C to 207th. The A handles the north end of the line just fine, and, knowing IND passengers, nobody will take the C anyway (except for the handful going to CPW local stations), even though it only takes 3 minutes more than the A to get to Midtown and it might meet a D at 125th.
As I have said, this is to compensate for the 5 daily A trains lost to the E (Rock Park).
Your C only runs weekdays, and your optional M only runs rush hours. What covers nights and weekends, a C shuttle?
Yes, I meant to put that in there (but didn't). The C would run from Metro Av-Myrtle Av at night, and either 1) the B would be restored on weekends, or 2)the C could run through to 168 St on weekends.
When Rockaways service was reorganized in 1992, one of the selling points was the direct express service from Rockaway Park. You're replacing it with direct local service -- and with much more service than is needed.
The extension of the (E) in place of the (C) has equal TPH, but the trains are 120' longer. I feel these longer trains should be put to use. I thought of sending it to Lefferts instead (Lefferts is closer than the Rockaways) but that would cause a conflict at night when you have two split (E) services (one in Manhattan and one Euclid-Lefferts). Replacing the A to Far Rock makes no sense, obviously.
Switching the C at W4 will cause occasional merging delays. Again, it can be done, and it may well be a desireable service pattern overall, but delays themselves are never good.
I agree somewhat, although such delays are inevitable and happen anyway. Might as well at least get a good service pattern in return.
Look at the Kings Highway area track map. How would you switch the NB F from the local track to the express track? It can't be done anymore. Either a new switch would have to be added or the V would have to run through to Stillwell to cover the remaining local stops.
The V could deadhead to Avenue X yard, reverse and stop at Ave X and Ave U northbound, while the F switches to express at Ave U. In fact, F/V trains in the peak hour would most likely come from the yard anyway, so half the Fs would already be on the middle track and half the Vs would be able to start at Avenue X. People taking (F) from Stillwell can transfer at Avenue X for the (V) to Avenue U (or they can walk 3 blocks).
When Jamaica Center first opened, the rush hour R ran local to 179th and the F ran express, but complaints from passengers at Hillside local stops (which until then had always had direct express service south of Continental) did away with that service pattern. You're restoring the same pattern. In addition, your extended V will get hopelessly delayed at Continental behind G's and R's preparing to relay.
SCREW THEM!!! For crying out loud, if they want their express that badly the V can be timed to meet the F at one or more express stations. If they want to save 10-12 minutes they will change for the F or walk to an express stop. If they want a seat they will stay on the V. Everyone thought the V would do nothing, but it turns out some people would prefer a seat over the 10-12 minute savings, especially since the F no longer goes to 53 St. That was not the case with the F/R service. There are major differences to consider (R via 60 vs. V via 53, R via Bway vs. V via 6th Ave, F via 63 vs. old F via 53).
Jamaica Center can only handle 12 tph. At least 4 tph of your E would have to run to 179th (or elsewhere).
The E currently does run 4 trains to Hillside.
Some of the Rock Park A trains don't run all the way to 207th, and even if they did, they'd be running in the opposite direction of the peak flow. No compensation is needed.
The extension of the (E) in place of the (C) has equal TPH, but the trains are 120' longer. I feel these longer trains should be put to use. I thought of sending it to Lefferts instead (Lefferts is closer than the Rockaways) but that would cause a conflict at night when you have two split (E) services (one in Manhattan and one Euclid-Lefferts). Replacing the A to Far Rock makes no sense, obviously.
No, the point I'm addressing is that you're replacing direct Rock Park express service with local service on the E, and Rock Park passengers are sure to complain bitterly, as though their lives depended on direct express service.
Here's an alternate idea for you (which will also generate bitter complaints): run the E to Lefferts at all times, including nights. Send all off-peak A's to Far Rock; rush hour specials will also serve Lefferts and Rock Park. There would be no late night A service, except for a shuttle between Euclid and Far Rock (if practical, the Rock Park shuttle would be extended to Euclid late nights to avoid the need for a double transfer). The C would run at all times between 168th and Metro, and at night (only!) would be extended to 207th. What do you think?
I agree somewhat, although such delays are inevitable and happen anyway. Might as well at least get a good service pattern in return.
Agreed. I'm point out flaws, not fatal flaws.
The V could deadhead to Avenue X yard, reverse and stop at Ave X and Ave U northbound, while the F switches to express at Ave U. In fact, F/V trains in the peak hour would most likely come from the yard anyway, so half the Fs would already be on the middle track and half the Vs would be able to start at Avenue X. People taking (F) from Stillwell can transfer at Avenue X for the (V) to Avenue U (or they can walk 3 blocks).
I suppose that would work, but it sounds needlessly complex.
SCREW THEM!!! For crying out loud, if they want their express that badly the V can be timed to meet the F at one or more express stations. If they want to save 10-12 minutes they will change for the F or walk to an express stop. If they want a seat they will stay on the V. Everyone thought the V would do nothing, but it turns out some people would prefer a seat over the 10-12 minute savings, especially since the F no longer goes to 53 St. That was not the case with the F/R service. There are major differences to consider (R via 60 vs. V via 53, R via Bway vs. V via 6th Ave, F via 63 vs. old F via 53).
I think I struck a nerve. Sorry.
I also think you've misanalyzed the V. The V doesn't pick up many passengers at Continental going all the way to Manhattan. It picks up (a) passengers who board at local stations between Continental and Roosevelt and prefer to lose two minutes on average than to transfer to a packed E or F, and (b) passengers who board at local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza who don't have anything to gain from transferring to an express at Queens Plaza except that that used to be the only way to reach 53rd and 6th.
And you still haven't addressed how you'd run all those V's through while turning G's and R's at Continental. Trains must be cleared out before relaying and it takes a few minutes to clear out a train.
The E currently does run 4 trains to Hillside.
Not 4 tph -- 4 trains per rush hour. They leave 179th at (approximately) 7:12am, 7:31am, 7:51am, 8:11am, 3:57pm, 4:16pm, and 4:36pm; they arrive at 179th at 6:01pm, 6:21pm, 7:25pm, and 8:06pm. You'd have to send a few more. I only pointed it out because you didn't.
Here's an alternate idea for you (which will also generate bitter complaints): run the E to Lefferts at all times, including nights. Send all off-peak A's to Far Rock; rush hour specials will also serve Lefferts and Rock Park. There would be no late night A service, except for a shuttle between Euclid and Far Rock (if practical, the Rock Park shuttle would be extended to Euclid late nights to avoid the need for a double transfer). The C would run at all times between 168th and Metro, and at night (only!) would be extended to 207th. What do you think?
Actually that's better. I don't see Lefferts riders (closer) complaining more than Rock Park riders.
I suppose that would work, but it sounds needlessly complex.
They've done worse.
I think I struck a nerve. Sorry.
Not really. No need to apologize.
And you still haven't addressed how you'd run all those V's through while turning G's and R's at Continental. Trains must be cleared out before relaying and it takes a few minutes to clear out a train.
It can take as little as 40 seconds. Regardless, a (simple wooden) platform could be built over the track from 71 Av to Jamaica. If anyone is still in the relay they can get off here, and change for the E/F/V on the upper level at 75th Avenue. This way trains can keep going at Continental and don't have to sit there. By 75 the V will be gone and only 2 routes (G/R) need to be turned. A platform is not needed on the other side. Trains can still get to Jamaica Yard by switching back at the eastern end. During off-hours when trains run less often the relay at 71st can continue as normal. If trains sitting on the track is a problem, they can keep going through Jamaica Yard via the loop track and come out in the opposite direction, and enter 71st.
This is what people should send in response to the 2nd Av. and upcoming Manhattan Bridge hearings.
212 new cars have arrived on their property. That's 21 new trains. The "V" would only need an extension to Church av (AS A LOCAL PEOPLE!!!). 21 trains is enough for that purpose.
Oh yeah, I remeber those proposals a while back, sending the V to Metro Av or Broadway Jucntion to supplement J and/or M service, 2 Av IMO is a bad terminal for the V but they had no choice [or do thdey?]
C 207 St, Inwood - Metropolitan Ave( all times)
Z Eliminated
J Jamaica Center - 95 Street, Brooklyn( weekdays, skip-stop Rush Hours, see M)
M Jamaica Center - Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn( rush hours, skip-stop with J 121 St-Myrtle Ave)
J Jamaica Center - Broad Street, Manhattan( nights, weekends)
E Jamaica Center - Lefferts Blvd via Fulton Local( all times)
A 207 St Inwood - Far Rockaway via Fulton Exp( all times, rush hour specials to Rockaway Park, nites local)
S Rockaway Park Shuttle unchanged
K 168 Street - World Trade Center( weekdays, rush hours) via 8 Ave local
There is no need for late night or weekend service to the WTC stub platforms late nights or weekends. Once the site is developed and business is up and running, Wall Street biggies will not be coming by the numbers during these hours. The Chambers St main line platform is sufficient for these service patterns.
And for visitors to the WTC, we still have the other subway lines around the WTC.
1) Can 207th Street handle the relaying of 2 services ?
2) Can the Cranberry tunnel handle the A nd E ? It didn't do it very well for the month after 9/11/01
You might as well call the M the Z.
I'd rather send the V to Metropolitan Avnue, and the J to south Brooklyn.
You really should avoid any kind of videotaping at RR stations unless you ckeck first with the powers to be.
Among the areas you should AVOID videotaping altogether (even with written permission, or unrestricted allowance) within you line of sight anywhere are: BRIDGES, BUS STATIONS, ELECTRICAL AND NUCLEAR (ESPECIALLY NUKE PLANTS) POWER PLANTS, GOVERNMENT OFFICES, ANY PLACE WHERE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WOULD ORDINARY CONGREGATE LIKE YANKEE STADIUM, LANDMARK INSTITUTIONS (GCT IS FORBIDDEN), OR SKYSCRAPERS OVER 500 FEET TALL.
: )
Mark
You could even sit in your SUV-height vehicle (if applicable)
and film out your front windshield...
I've got a 6 inch (152mm) Dobsonian Reflector, all I need is an SLR camera, a T-adaptor and a perch over a yard or railroad tracks.
It's not quite a 1 meter Hubble, but I think it might do for rivit photographing from a good mile away! Plus the hanhguided alt-az Dobsonian mounting capable of negative altitude allows for much easier tracking of odd-ball things (trains, planes [Even seen an NJ ANG F-16!], and satellites) than a Equitoral tripod mounting would allow.
Sometime I'm gonna have to talk a friend in a dorm overlooking 30th St into letting me get up there with the scope!
http://www.meade.com/catalog/lx/16_lx200gps.html
Nah, I think it'd take something like this before they'd catch on! Set this puppy up on the Empire State Building and study the details of the C3 cars sitting in LIC yard!
--Mark
'I'm going photographing, anyone want to come along as a tripod?'
Of course the idea is to be a LOOOOONG way away on public property (or private property with an OK) and shoot just like you're there, so MTA tripod rules be damned!
MTA Police does not patrol the subway. NYPD has the subway system, SIRT has their own police force, and if I'm not mistaken, Bridges and Tunnels also have their own police. MTA Police is strickly for the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North Railroad.
I'll be impresssed either way, but a photographic 3d rendering would be a very impressive achievment.
-Robert King
http://www.phillytrolley.org/coreldraw.html
See how a photograph of a PCC streetcar was used to construct a basic part of a blueprint of a PCC car using AutoCAD? Then the blueprint was fed into something like Autodesk 3D studio, which then produced the final 3D rendering using standard colours from its pallette and lighting effects included in the software. The result here is a good 3d rendering of part of a streetcar. But there's no way it looks like the photograph.
----
If you had a complete set of photographs of the streetcar, a complete blueprint for it could be developed in AutoCAD and then it could be rendered from any perspective in 3D studio, producing a complete 3D representation of the PCC. All you need is a complete set of blueprints in AutoCAD and then you can show the PCC in 3D representation any way you want, but it would still be rendered using 3D studio's computer generated 'painted surfaces' and 'glass' for the windows, etc. The end result is a picture of the PCC which looks artificial, like a model.
----
The second, more difficult approach I'm thinking of is to start out again with a complete set of photographs of the PCC and bring them into the computer. Then, use (or write) a computer program to generate composite photographs of the PCC from whatever perspective you want, using the existing photographs as its basis. The end result from this approach is a new picture of the PCC that looks more like an actual photograph as opposed to a frame taken out from a 3D animation.
The way I'd go about doing this is to go back to actual photographs, and take perspective shots of the PCC from each side and, if possible, the top. Then, I'd use the photographs of the PCC to make a blueprint in AutoCAD. Then I'd apply the photographs of the PCC to the blueprint in 3D studio or something better suited for this purpose, and render the final image of whatever perspective desired from the pictures layered on top of the 3D blueprint. That way, you'd end up with a 3D composite photograph (as opposed to a 100% computer generated construct) of the PCC from pretty much any desired perspective.
---
Do you understand what I'm asking about the 3D rendering of Grand Central, whether it's going to be a 100% computer generated image or a 3D rerendering of photographs?
-Robert King
I haven't done anything like that since 1995 or 1996.
-Robert King
Then I'll examine them to reproduce the materials. The cieling however will probably be a straight photograph.
If I do the lighting right, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you go around inspecting the veins in GCTs marble and other surfaces. This one uses all standard materials except the map (from the MTA website).
I'll be impresssed either way, but a photographic 3d rendering would be a very impressive achievment.
I'd be happy if I could do a Fiat Lux-ish GCT too.
Perhaps some rules about flash photography.
Also, I suspect they can get you for loitering if you stick around any one place too long.
--Mark
There is no permit.
Where can I get a copy of the law?
Courtesy of Terry Kennedy
It is encumbent upon all railfans to continue to exercise these rights and report any violation by police or others to Metro North or any other transit agency. Also, a complaint to the ACLU would be in order. We must not let our freedoms erode bit-by-bit!
The General Rule
The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.
Absent a specific legal prohibition
such as a statute or ordinance, you are
legally entitled to take photographs.
Examples of places that are traditionally
considered public are streets,
sidewalks, and public parks.
Property owners may legally prohibit
photography on their premises
but have no right to prohibit others
from photographing their property
from other locations. Whether you
need permission from property owners
to take photographs while on their
premises depends on the circumstances.
In most places, you may reasonably
assume that taking photographs
is allowed and that you do not
need explicit permission. However,
this is a judgment call and you should
request permission when the circumstances
suggest that the owner is likely
to object. In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.
Some Exceptions to the Rule
There are some exceptions to the
general rule. A significant one is that
commanders of military installations
can prohibit photographs of specific
areas when they deem it necessary to
protect national security. The U.S.
Department of Energy can also prohibit
photography of designated
nuclear facilities although the publicly
visible areas of nuclear facilities are
usually not designated as such.
Members of the public have a very
limited scope of privacy rights when
they are in public places. Basically,
anyone can be photographed without
their consent except when they have
secluded themselves in places where
they have a reasonable expectation of
privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms,
medical facilities, and inside
their homes.
Permissible Subjects
Despite misconceptions to the contrary,
the following subjects can
almost always be photographed lawfully
from public places:
accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers
Who Is Likely to Violate Your Rights
Most confrontations are started by
security guards and employees of
organizations who fear photography.
The most common reason given is
security but often such persons have
no articulated reason. Security is
rarely a legitimate reason for restricting
photography. Taking a photograph
is not a terrorist act nor can a
business legitimately assert that taking
a photograph of a subject in public
view infringes on its trade secrets.
On occasion, law enforcement officers
may object to photography but
most understand that people have the
right to take photographs and do not
interfere with photographers. They do
have the right to keep you away from
areas where you may impede their
activities or endanger safety. However,
they do not have the legal right
to prohibit you from taking photographs
from other locations.
They Have Limited Rights to Bother,
Question, or Detain You
Although anyone has the right to
approach a person in a public place
and ask questions, persistent and
unwanted conduct done without a
legitimate purpose is a crime in many
states if it causes serious annoyance.
You are under no obligation to answer
such questions in any state and do not
have to disclose your identity or the
purpose of your photography.
If the conduct goes beyond mere
questioning, all states have laws that
make coercion and harassment criminal
offenses. The specific elements
vary among the states but in general it
is unlawful for anyone to instill a fear
that they may injure you, damage or
take your property, or falsely accuse
you of a crime just because you are
taking photographs.
Private parties have very limited
rights to detain you against your will
and may be subject to criminal and
civil charges should they attempt to
do so. Although the laws in most
states authorize citizen’s arrests, such
authority is very narrow. In general,
citizen’s arrests can be made only for
felonies or crimes committed in the
person’s presence. Failure to abide by
these requirements usually means
that the person is liable for a tort such
as false imprisonment.
They Have No Right to Confiscate
Your Film
Sometimes agents acting for entities
such as owners of industrial plants
and shopping malls may ask you to
hand over your film. Absent a court
order, private parties have no right to
confiscate your film. Taking your film
directly or indirectly by threatening to
use force or call a law enforcement
agency can constitute criminal offenses
such as theft and coercion. It can
likewise constitute a civil tort such as
conversion. Law enforcement officers
may have the authority to seize film
when making an arrest but otherwise
must obtain a court order.
Your Legal Remedies If Harassed
If someone has threatened, intimidated,
or detained you because you were
taking photographs, they may be
liable for crimes such as kidnapping,
coercion, and theft. In such cases, you
should report them to the police.
You may also have civil remedies
against such persons and their
employers. The torts for which you
may be entitled to compensation
include assault, conversion, false
imprisonment, and violation of your
constitutional rights.
Other Remedies If Harassed
If you are disinclined to take legal
action, there are still things you can do
that contribute to protecting the right
to take photographs.
(1) Call the local newspaper and see if
they are interested in running a story.
Many newspapers feel that civil liberties
are worthy of serious coverage.
(2) Write to or call the supervisor of
the person involved, or the legal or
public relations department of the
entity, and complain about the event.
(3) Make the event publicly known on
an Internet forum that deals with photography
or civil rights issues.
How to Handle Confrontations
Most confrontations can be defused
by being courteous and respectful. If
the party becomes pushy, combative,
or unreasonably hostile, consider calling
the police. Above all, use good
judgment and don’t allow an event to
escalate into violence.
In the event you are threatened with
detention or asked to surrender your
film, asking the following questions
can help ensure that you will have the
evidence to enforce your legal rights:
1. What is the person’s name?
2. Who is their employer?
3. Are you free to leave? If not, how do
they intend to stop you if you decide
to leave? What legal basis do they
assert for the detention?
4. Likewise, if they demand your film,
what legal basis do they assert for the
confiscation?
Disclaimer
This is a general education guide
about the right to take photographs
and is necessarily limited in scope. For
example, it does not cover important
issues such as publication and copyright.
For more information about the
laws that affect photography, I refer
you to my book, Legal Handbook for
Photographers (Amherst Media, 2002).
This guide is not intended to be legal
advice nor does it create an attorney
client relationship. Readers should
seek the advice of a competent attorney
when they need legal advice
regarding a specific situation.
published by:
Bert P. Krages II
Attorney at Law
6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200
Portland, Oregon 97223
www.krages.com
© 2003 Bert P. Krages II
Your Rights and
Remedies When
Stopped or
Confronted
for Photography
February 2003
There is no inherent right to take photographs on RR property open to the public. It is dependent on RR rules. Photography is specifically allowed on New York subways. IIRC, it is prohibited on PATH. LIRR and Metro North may have differing rules regarding photography holding over from the time they were independent railroads.
Tom
It's only 9 months and counting down to the end of a sorry era, the N Sea Beach Line going through a stinking, ugly rathole called the Montague Tunnel. Fred, time to stock up on cheese for the little critters will you can, it's almost over.
I just picked up the new brochure advertising hearings on the MB changes and it says Winter 2004.
I know everyone has been saying February 2004 but I won't hold my breath. Remember we are dealing with the NYC DOT not the MTA when it comes to the MB. Anything can happen between now and the end of this year.
I know everyone has been saying February 2004
And what season is it meant to be in February if it's not winter?
Rich
Now we will have to see what the NYS Appelate Court has to say.
IMHO - don't expect the fare to be rolled back.
(apparently this only applies if you're a semi-often rider).
Or does that go into someone's pocket?
The MTA has a $3.4 billion dollar budget deficit
Especially if the judge is dumb enough not to allow the MTA to close token booths. Expect longer waits for trains and buses as those are it's largest expenses
On top of that add 10-15% to the costs of all capitol projects that the MTA hoped to issue bonds to raise money as the MTA's credit rating will be dropped so the cost of borroing will skyrocket
Lets shake things up a little and show the tyrants their place!
You and me are on the same wavelenght.
Would love to see the people crowed the bridges, streets and bike paths!
Get a little exercise people. and save 4 bucks. Quit your Gym and save even more!
First things first. It'll take at least 2 hours to get from any outer borough to Manhattan, regardless of walking, taking a car, etc (unless you live right across the river). Each way.
That adresses your point about "inconvenient".
Would everybody do it? No.
Would half of the people do it? No.
Would 1/4 of the people do it? No.
Would 1/8....
1/16....
1/32....No.
At most you'll find a few thousand people who don't understand (or don't feel) that the convenience of having 4 extra hours in their life each day is worth a $4 round trip fare.
But for the hell of it, let's say that your plan is possible. Everyone stops using MTA until the fares are reduced. Well, the MTA, which is already having budget problems, will have to shut down temporarily. Soon, even if it were possible for them to survive on $1.50 per ride, it won't be. They'll need the fare to be $2.50, or $3.50, just to recover. Of course, the city could allow private companies to start building subways, and in maybe 10, 15 years competition will bring the fare down to $2.
So, there's your best shot. Stop using the subway for 10 years, and we'll have some competition, probably enough to get the SAS built, and you'll only have to pay $2.
Go for it bud.
Mark
Only because the city did everything in its power to make it fail. Left to their own devices with a minor degree of regulation it would have survived a lot longer.
Sadly, this is where everyone will chip in to call me insane.
Mark
The fares, tolls, taxes etc. are going up, and services are going cut, to pay for health care, pensions, and debts. That's it. That's where the money is going. All of it. ALL OF IT!
And as long as people continue to think they only have to work 30 years, are entitled to as much health care as it takes to live forever, and can put some of the cost on someone else's credit card, it will go on and on.
New York is, as always, cutting edge. Our state and local debts are higher, our public employee retirement more lucrative, and our health care more expensive, than other places. And there is now one recipient of New York State public employee benefit checks in New York State for every two public employees. That ratio is going nowhere but up.
But don't bother leaving. Because the same trends will overtake the federal government by the year 2012, leading to such a national crisis that the difference between states will seem insiginificant. Social security will be running a deficit, and looking to cash in those treasury notes that have been loaded into the "lock box." So will Medicare. And the number of people in nursing homes paid for by Medicaid will be exploding (better hope they find a cure for Alzheimers fast). Plus, there will be all the federal debts loaded up over the past decade.
What profit-motivated business in their right mind would build and operate a subway?
Let's not forget: most of the subway infrastructure was built and paid for by the city. The private companies (IRT and BMT) mainly least the city-built lines.
There has been this tendancy in recent years for people to apply a business model to government services, and it is just a pipe dream. Take the controversy of school vouchers: many people think that if the public schools are given "competition" they will have to improve. But why? In business, the main goal is PROFIT; how would government-reimbursed private schools force public schools to PROFIT? This really doesn't even make sense.
People whine and moan about the cost of public services, and at the same time, want MORE and improved services, plus lower government spending and lower taxes. Where does the money come from to pay for all of this? Does it fall out of the sky?
Want to go back to the days of "deferred maintenance"? Forget new subway cars, renovated stations, grafitti-free trains; bring back derailments, track fires, and transit strikes every few years.
"Taxes" and "spending" are dirty words, yet people don't seem to mind paying for more bond issues. Yeah...let people who want government services buy bonds. Oh...we forgot one thing: we have to pay the bondholders back some day, with INTEREST on top of the principal, which you don't do when you spend "government" funds directly.
Unregulated subways. I can just see it: Private companies digging up your streets (NIMBY, anyone?) and building their own free-market subways. What kind of fares do you think they would have to charge to make a profit?
Does the IRT ring a bell? It was a private company, thinking about profit. I have no doubt that another company would do it today, if
a) it, AND it's competitors were unsubsidized. On a level playing field, a subway can make tons of profit (and in doing so, serve its customers very well).
There has been this tendancy in recent years for people to apply a business model to government services, and it is just a pipe dream. Take the controversy of school vouchers: many people think that if the public schools are given "competition" they will have to improve. But why? In business, the main goal is PROFIT; how would government-reimbursed private schools force public schools to PROFIT? This really doesn't even make sense.
Very simple. Companies that want to make a profit like to have customers. Customers like to get good products. Run a crappy school, and nobody will send their kids to it. Unless of course you're a public school, and you don't have a choice. But we're talking about REAL competition, not a government-held monopoly.
People whine and moan about the cost of public services, and at the same time, want MORE and improved services, plus lower government spending and lower taxes. Where does the money come from to pay for all of this? Does it fall out of the sky?
I'm not sure where this came from. I want less government services, and lower taxes. Works out pretty logically.
Want to go back to the days of "deferred maintenance"? Forget new subway cars, renovated stations, grafitti-free trains; bring back derailments, track fires, and transit strikes every few years.
"Taxes" and "spending" are dirty words, yet people don't seem to mind paying for more bond issues. Yeah...let people who want government services buy bonds. Oh...we forgot one thing: we have to pay the bondholders back some day, with INTEREST on top of the principal, which you don't do when you spend "government" funds directly.
This actually has nothing to do with what I suggested, but we do pay interest when the government pays for us. Every year when we run a budget deficit, we keep getting charged interest on that increased debt.
Unregulated subways. I can just see it: Private companies digging up your streets (NIMBY, anyone?) and building their own free-market subways. What kind of fares do you think they would have to charge to make a profit?
I think a buck per ride would be reasonable. If you look at all the money that the NYC Subways throw away on useless pork, stuff that private companies would never touch, you'd be surprised. To name a few: unions, token booths, construction projects that take 3 times longer than they should and cost 3 times as much as they should.
Any other concerns?
I Live in Cobble Hill, not exactly Brooklyn Heights and I work in Chelsea, it takes me exactly 50 minutes to walk door to door.
That's walking,
I have not yet rode my bike.
Roller Blades?
Lots of people spend time and money at the gym, when they could be saving money and punishing the crooks at the TA at the same time.
The reason the TA feels they can get away with their fancy bookkeeping is precisly because they assume that noone is willing to rock the boat a little and shake things up.
sometimes you got to change just for the sake of change.
I love walking in New York.
It's in many of these far areas where generally the "people who can't afford the fare hike" live. As little as they can afford a fare hike, I doubt they can afford to be late to work because it took them 2 hours to get there.
Pro's
1-Eventually after a few days( If people in the masses do strike) the fare will have to go back to $1.50
2-Everyone will get much needed exercise
3-The MTA will realize who keeps the trains running and were not going to take their crap
Con's
1-The fact that people won't be willing to walk from Montauk to Manhatthan, or drive from Montauk to Brooklyn then walk over a bridge
Other than the 1 con I support this idea.
- The city needs the TA, not vice versa. It's not a corporation. Since the MTA needs more money to run than it takes in from fare paying customers, a total shutdown would actually save them money.
- The fare increase is not being used to line the pockets of some small group of super-rich executives. The MTA is not a corporation, doesn't have stockholders and doesn't issue stock. The MTA executives earn their salary reguardless of what the fare is.
Pay the damned fare already. Aim your anger at those who deserve it, namely the state legislature who has successfully conned most New Yorkers into believing they must raise taxes to prevent the sky from falling, and a governor who weilds his impotent veto pen while quietly smiling at those who overode it.
- The city needs the TA, not vice versa. It's not a corporation. Since the MTA needs more money to run than it takes in from fare paying customers, a total shutdown would actually save them money
The city does not need the TA. Its the TA that needs this city. If there was a actual defecit then I would pay quietly. But since theres a half billion dollar surplus why should I dish out the extra money?
Plus the legislator is ready to raise the sales tax, and rents and city tax has already skyrocketed, so why should YOU give your money to a group of people who has absolutely no money problems?
And I dont appreciate being called a ignoramous!
Its too hard to explain
The MTA receives guaranteed revenues from the state that are earmarked to it by the state legislature each year. In addition, there are various taxes that the MTA collects on directly (where do you think the extra .25% in the sales tax goes?). If the MTA spends less money than its total income including taxes, then that is not a surplus.
If you made $100 a week and someone gave you an extra $50 in charity so you could afford to eat and pay rent, and you spent $125 on various necessities, leaving $25, does that mean that you earned $25?
Excellent analogy.
This woman was the main reason Grand Central was saved from the wreckers ball.
Peace,
ANDEE
The big post office (It's like 'Harley' or something, I dunno. All I know is that it's along 8th Avenue) will be the new station.
This is not just a NYC thing. Buildings that were once important or handsome have vanished for a "modern" one, that also, years later, meets the same fate.
AMTRAK is converting the Farley Post Office (designed by the same architech as old Penn Station. They are tired of having their pasengers get off the their trains in the basement of a sports palace.
Take a good ride on your favorite train today.
Mark
Chuck Greene
I guess you have a bona fide reason to light firecrackers tonight even if you are American...your neighbours might be scratching their heads, though.
-Robert King
I wonder if anyone ever actually called a drug store and asked "Do you have Prince Albert in a can? Well then, let him out!"
Of course, I doubt if anyone under age 35 has the slightest idea what this means. And now, of course, the name Prince Albert refers to something quite obscene and disgusting. Sic transit gloria mundi ... see, I added "transit" content :)
-Robert King
Not only do I know what it means, I used to SMOKE that stuff, at least until I quit smoking back in 1976.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have no idea what the current meaning is, and I presume I really don't want to...
It is a piercing on a guy in a place that would make it difficult for him to use an urinal.
I routinely buy beer for the teens that work at the car wash I work at. Of course it costs them a 6 or 12 pack for myself :-)
If child prices or at least a lower "teen" price applied up to 17, it would at least be fair.
Here's a digest of what was happening in the world in and around the day you were born in 1986:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/051986/860519007.html
Very sad that so little has changed.
Oh, one thing's changed all right ... America is even more dependent on Midest oil.
The latter. The Chevy Suburban has been around for a long time.
The difference is that back in 1986, people bought high clearance, high weight, 4 WD vehicles if they needed one for work or wanted one for recreation (i.e., getting places on very rough roads). They didn't buy them for the look.
Chuck Greene
BTW, tomorrows my 16th.
--Mark
wayne
My big beef with the hearing was that among the SEPTA representatives not a single member was from the Board of Directors, one of the presenters really latched onto that. To me it mostly seemed to be Community Activists and council members fighting for their transit, which makes sense, more power to them. I was pretty much surrounded by C bus advocates with their little signs and such, they were kind of funny cause they'd raise them for EVERYTHING, even when somebody from Northwest Philly was talking about the R8 they'd applaud and raise their little 'C bus' signs. I guess it was just good that they supported people from outside their immediate scope.
Of all the speakers, it was the last one I saw, a Mr. Brian Anderson, who most impressed me. I'm guessing he was just a Septa customer who decided to come in and give them his two cents. His speech was clear, well researched, and he basically attacked SEPTA from all sides. I have no idea where he is from, he mentioned that he commutes from a zone three station, which could be pretty much anywhere, and he barely gave an indication as to his home area, he questioned the canceling of the C, the closing of R5 stations, the end of the R1, and a whole host of other things that SEPTA's trying to pull on us. He was better prepared than most of the council members and community activists, having the Septa budget for FY2004-2005 printed out and on hand for his reference, and he cited a 28 million and 26 million (IIRC) growth in suburban and city division employee spending, unrelated to their latest pay increases the union negotiated, since the 55 million budget shortfall could easily come out of there. He was cut off at 5 minutes by the lead SEPTA flunkie, even though he was interrupted numerous times by a young lady toward the front who agreed just a bit too much with him. I really hope he got his point across to the SEPTA people.
Anyone else out there go to any other meetings or planning on going to the 5 pm? I really wish I had scheduled today better, I could have easily missed the Council Member and Community Activist speeches, if there were one or two more Brian Andersons after him, I would have been glad to stay, but alas the DrexHell beckoned.
Chuck Greene
Right now I'm just really mad at them becuase they insist upon closing a key section of Market St's sidewalk while they do the preparation for yet another building. Near as I can tell the construction workers placed the fencing across the sidewalk to provide a safe parking spot for their cars. Yet for anyone wanting to get to CAT or LeBow building it's either cross the street, detour well out of the way, or walk down the right lane of market st. It's not safe at all, but it seems to be common practice in Philly.
Wow, 1965, what buildings were there then? Disque? Kelly? Matheson? Must have been nice to have a slightly more open campus, and GG1s on the High Line!
I gotta ask, was Disque under construction while you were there? I've heard that for a brief time during it's construction the Pennsy 32nd st tunnel into 30th St Station Upper Level was partially exposed. Apparantly there are pictures of this somewhere on campus, but I have yet to see them.
Chuck Greene
Cutbacks Would Cripple City, SEPTA Told
Mark
Although MTA officials have argued that changing the price for subways and buses across New York City is a logistical nightmare that would take weeks to complete and would cost millions of dollars, a former MTA official admitted in recent days that changing the fare would take about half a minute. "It's very straightforward given it's all computerized," said the former official on the condition of anonymity. "You just access the MTA network and as long as you have the proper username and password, you input the new fare. It automatically updates the fare in every single subway station and on every bus instantly." The official explained that each subway station and bus is connected with MTA headquarters electronically. "It's a little something called technology," the official said with a smile. Not surprisingly, critics went on the offensive and accused the MTA of stall tactics. "The MTA is deceiving the people of New York once again," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign. "It's just another lie perpetrated by the corrupt MTA administration," he added. A number of MTA critics also suggested that the $2 million that the MTA said it would need to change the fare may be another example of fraudulent accounting. "It'll take them 30 seconds to change the fare and then they'll probably just funnel the $2 million into a secret account," said Robert Quinones of the Straphangers Campaign. NewYorkish.com
Scary, isn't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
John
--Mark
Photo of the week (May 17 - May 23) is updated--Amtrak #713
Recent new/updated sections:
1)NA Transit MEGA UPDATE Phase 1. Transit Sound Section added 100 sounds and Transit Video Club added 81 videos of many transit buses and trains
2)Greater Toronto section updated. Added 24 assorted pictures of Toronto Transit Commission, and updated bus and subway rosters.
3)Updated in New York Transit Center. Photo of the month is updated, several new sections and update are shown in Bus Terminal
and more.....................
Natransit
Subway grrl
hot damn.
1) How much did the TVM's cost NJT?
2) How much did it take (related to #1) to replace the older TVM's with the new, colored ones?
Oren,
It does not surprise me that you have made this observation. I think the answer to this quandary is pretty simple. "Rolling stock shortage".
This is something I have been bicthing about for more the 15 years. If you check this search of "WMATA rolling stock" at groups.google.com you can read some of the discussions on this subject.
WMATA has had a rolling stock shortage from the day yellow line service started between Gallery Place F01 and National Airport C10 back on April 30 1983. Extension of the yellow line service on the C route to Huntington C15 started on December 17 of that same year. At this time the Bredas were just coming on line. Opening the station south of National Airport C10 using Yellow line service was a stop gap cure to get these stations open with the available rolling stock that WMATA had at the time. Most here don’t know that Eisenhower Avenue C14 and Huntington C15 stations were shown on maps prior to there openings as Blue line stations.
After the November 22 1980 8 car trains disappeared from the system. That right at one time in the past WMATA ran 8 car trains on at least 50% of the peek scheduled trains on daily bases.
These random consists will be a fact of life until the WMATA gets the CAF cars fully operational. 950 cars are needed to run all trains with 6 cars consists with 68% utilization with all of the CAF cars fully operational. We will not start seeing the return of 8 car trains until the first batch of Alstrom cars come on line in 2005 and there will only be 8 8 car trains in the schedule. We will not see 8 car trains in significant numbers until 2013.
For more details about rolling stock procurement download Integration of Infrastructure Renewal, Core Capacity, Regional Bus and System Expansion Plans.
PS this document will hold some of the answers to the next WMATA metrorail quiz I am putting together.
John
Look at the big picture here, WMATA has fluctuating number of cars that are available for revenue service on any given day. The CAF cars are still likely not fully deployed and are not likely up to the optimum level of mileage between failures. There is a number of car that are out of service for routine maintenance along with the Bredas that are being rotated off the property for overhaul. You likely also have a fluctuating number of cars that are pulled from revenue service because of unpredicted failures. What is likely happening is the number of cars available for revenue service came up short on the day in question so WMATA deployed what they had. The next day the numbers were different and more cars were available.
John
Have the first Bredas sent off for rehab back yet?
John
I pulled this from one of the press releases at www.wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/dailyrelease.cfm dated December 24, 2002. Full text of the release can be had at wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/200212/pr_year_in_review.cfm.
This year, Metro will reintroduce into service its first rehabilitated series 2000/3000 BREDA rail cars. The cars will look very similar to the series 5000 cars. In 2001, Metro awarded a contract to Alstom Transportation Inc., to rehabilitate 364 rail cars. With many of these rail cars in service for nearly 20 years, Metro initiated rehabilitation to modernize these cars.
I concur, I would hazard a guess that some of these cars have been delivered to Alstom but I have no idea what the numbers would be. As I recall when the Rohr car were shipped out for AC traction propulsion upgrades no more the 6 car were off the property at any given time.
John
John
You know if MARTA has any plans of getting next train indicators like the ones WMATA has?
I remember the Lindbergh one the best. There was only one sign for the whole station and both tracks. It would read something like:
AIRPORT........1 min
DORAVILLE......2 min
AIRPORT........5 min
NORTH SPRINGS..6 min
There wern't any dots on the real signs. The top train would disapear when you could see the train from the platform in the tunnel or coming around the corner.
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
APPROACHING
then
7:29 am
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
APPROACHING
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
then
7:30 am
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
3 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
The funny thing is it will say Red Line to Grosvenor in 3 as the Shady Grove train is just about to stop.
As far as our consists: 6 cars to the MFL every day, regardless of time. There are rare occasions where trains will be 4 cars, but that's really hard to predict... only seen it on summer holidays, or light Sundays in summer. NEVER seen it on Independence Day, or any winter holidays. BSL is 5 cars for everything, except for the Spur, which is always 2 cars.
As far as WMATA goes, it's probably a mix of Bredas in rehab and CAFs not ready. They don't have enough available cars to do constant six-car trains. I've seen 2-car consists on weekend Green and Yellow line trains before. However, the 2-car Green trains are becoming longer, ever since Branch Avenue opened. I've never seen less than 4 cars on the other three lines. I also DID see an 8-car train on the Blue Line once... July 4th, 1998. And all the Vienna-bound passengers booed the train.
Mark
p.s.--I wasn't caught in the 100 car pile-up on I-68 even though it was only 7 miles from my home, even John got caught up in all the detours Saturday morning.---it did, however, take me two and a half hours to get home Friday evening---heck, on a normal day, I can be home in 20 minutes and I could be at Shady Grove in 2 hours and downtown Baltimore in two and a half----WOW!!
I remember taking the Green Line from Fort Totten to College Park a few times with the two car trains, and everybody would pile on the first car, leaving the second car completely empty. I used to run for that and get a car while the morons in the front car were packed in. Unfortunately, a lot of them were the braniacs from UMD and the tourists that don't know how to spread out on a platform.
A 4 car train at Archives will have the third car at the escalator.
Remember that version of the Green Map I showed you? Well the extension of the F Route Green line was shown as future to Brandywine roughly following the Pepco right of way south of the Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495
There are presently two proposals being floated for fixed guide way transit south of WMATAs Branch Avenue (F11) station. None involve extension of the existing F Route Green line. The proposals are lite rail and bus rapid transit along the MD-5 Branch Avenue freeway.
John
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=480305
bryan - whereever you are - good luck to you - you'll need it.
So long, farewell,
Auf Wiedersehen, good-bye?
Latest construction update: concrete for the extra boarding area at Broadway has been poured, although the new third track has not yet been put down. What's puzzling is the fact that it's the same length as the existing boarding area (for three-car trains) while all stations on the new Southeast Corridor will be long enough to accommodate four-car trains.
The steel bents for the light rail bridge over Broadway are in place. You can see why they went with steel bents instead of reinforced concrete girders used on other bridges: the bridge snakes around the office building of the Gates Rubber Company. Girders for the Belleview Ave. bridge are in place as well.
Still, the pleasantly cool ride on 9311 was quite surprising for me.
R-32
But still, it was one of the most enjoyable rides I ever had on a R33WF.
(posts like these get people to spend their birthday in other people's killfiles)... lol!
Wanna guess who's #1?
Not that it matters.
Thanks in advance.
-Robert King
-Robert King
Arti
There is a trade-off between film speed and grain (the size of the lumps of silver that react to the light). You get finer detail and better color saturation with slower film.
I grew up with Kodachrome X (the predecessor to K64). I liked it because Ektachrome was too blue. Also, I was told that Ektachrome stood up to repeated projection, but Kodachrome was better for archiving.
John
John
I presume you mean ASA 64... don't think 400 or 200 was around then. I shot Ektachrome when I lived in Spain but went back to Kodachrome (ASA 25) for the archival permanence. Used the last of my stash last summer so now I'm using K-64. Have some nice crisp slides from the early '60s that were shot on the old ASA 16 Kodachrome... still look great... and have some that my great-uncle took in the late '30s... think that was ASA 8.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
John
They currently offer Ektachrome in ASA 1600... not that I'm likely to ever try it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Polarizers genrally screw into a lense camera barrel. Then there is a ring you rotate. Rotating the ring while looking through the view finder, you'll notice the sky getting darker or glare disappearing from window.
I don't know how many of you know this, but there are two types of polarizer filters. There is the standard polarizer and there is a circular polarizer. The circular polizer gives an even darkening all around while the standard usually darkens the sky. I have both. I checked the B & H Photo catalogue and a 55mm (for Minolta) standard polarizer goes for $16.95 while the circular polarizer goes for $29.95.
Bill "Newkirk"
Fortunately the way the G3 is set up you can rotate the filter before putting it on and note the orietation. The tube only goes on the camera one way. Its a little easier to work with than looking through the small view of the viewfinder.
Plus most (affordable) digital cameras don't have traditional viewfinders so you can't see the effect of the polarizer through it.
Bill "Newkirk"
As to Adorama, the personnel are far friendlier, they open on Sundays at 9:30am (B&H opens at 10); the ability to park right in front of the store on Sundays at no charge so you don't have to lug your purchases to a parking lot (and riskhaving your auto damaged) across a main thoroughfare; the willingness of store personnel to assist you in carrying purchases to your vehicle; and it's only necessary to select what you want and the same salesperson will ring up your purchase and pack it for you.
As to prices, both B&H and Adorama are similar and in many cases equal for most items, but for far superior service Adorama comes out far, far ahead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, 6 months or so until I am not a teenager! Sorry, I'm still at teenager! :-)
Bill "Newkirk"
From Amtrak.Com:
New England Service Disruption, May 19, 2003
Due to the minor derailment of an MBTA commuter train this afternoon (May 19) at Canton Junction, MA, Amtrak service between New Haven, CT and Boston, MA, is temporarily suspended. Passengers planning to travel between these cities are encouraged to call
1 800-USA-RAIL for the latest train status information. We apologize for any inconvenience you may experience.
Wish I had my camera :-(
These vandals need to be taught a good hard lesson about taking care of common property
The purpose of the CCTV camera in the first place
It has been proven over an over in various studies in numerous cities including NYC that CCTV camera's deter vandalism. the large majority of the Vandals are not super hard core and think what they are doing is funny and they won't get caught. Add the spector that someone is paying attention, the amount of vandalism goes down.
The fact that they get away with an act of vandalim reinforces phycologically that vandalism is a crime for which thier is no penalty
Take a walk around the city. places where cctc camaras focus on building parimeters, thier are no grafetti. One of my budies when I was a teenager was number 3 on the cities top 10 grafetti artists. He stayed clear of areas where he knew people where watching. Prior to the Many-B paint job he had a tag on every pole on the lower roadway. Something he was proud of.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was just watching Futurama on Cartoon Network, they go down to 'Old New York,' where they go down to the Subway. Bender the Robot straddles the subway tracks, gets electrocuted, and shudderes, "Ohh man that feels good." The other two people, Frye and Leela hop on his back and he makes the announcement, "This is a Brooklyn-bound B Train making all Stops to whereever I feel like! Bing! Bong!" They head for Brooklyn and even arrive at Newkirk Ave!
Yes, Futurama predicted the 2004 B-D shuffle, several years before it happened! Amazing! The show actually became accurate with the passage of time!
#3 West End Jeff
Shoulda taken the 7 Redbirds sucker!
Oh, and thanks.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
And around here in upstate Noo Yawk, where there's PLENTY of abandoned track, nothing like a HYRAIL to get you where you're going, pretty much anywhere you want. This is a Syracuse bound GMC Train making stops anywhere we feel like and to hell with CSXT, the ball's against 'em now. :)
Once you get out of MetroNorth land, tracks are maintained by private companies if they're maintained at all. About the ONLY thing we get upstate from OUR gooberment is a BILL.
And that differs from your average weekend subway service exactly how???
See, my subway station is so popular, it was on national TV (when it was on FOX) and now on cable (Cartoon Net.). Did the artists who worked on the animated show drew a good rendering of the station house also?
Ahhh! Nice to see cartoonists recognize such a wonder subway line and station. I promise I will NEVER desert my Brighton line, unlike some nut out in California who thinks his Sea Beach is the best thing in the world. This week so far, we were discussing the Avenue H stationhouse, now a TV show. What next? Speed 3 (The Slant R40 is now the bus in Speed 1 and cannot go below 40 MPH.)
What were those proposals?
So then 5 minutes later we depart and we stop and go through 5 Av & GC then we go through the Steinway tubes ride over the gaps going about 30mph until we reach Vernon Blvd. We load depart then we go through the other stations and the nice curves before we reach Queensboro Plaza going over a few 3rd rail gaps in the process. Then we head onto the Flushing express and the Bird is still going strong at 40 years old giving the speed on the express and then we arrive at 61 St; afterwards we leave go down the dip and the speed & rocking of the train goes on, man I'm going to miss them :-(. We thunder down the middle track and were rocking left to right and you really had to hold on, then we arrive at Junction Blvd, leave then bypass the next 2 local stations but get caught by red signals on the "roller coaster" section. We switch BEFORE arriving at Willets Point, a rarity and its lights out for 5 seconds. Then we go towards Main and we double switch to the MB track and its lights out again :-D until we arrive at Main.
Top speeds:
QB Plaza-61 St-35mph
61-Junction Blvd-43mph
Junction-Willets Point-36mph
So I go outside and I run to catch the Q44 loading passengers at Main St on Roosevelt Av then we depart and then the LTD ride starts once again. We go smoothly via Main until around 73 Av when some group was marching down Main St, having the nerve to take up ALL the lanes and these two guys start telling them to get out the street and I was getting pissed of since we lost about 8-10 minutes of travel time. Then we continue going down via Main and then these same guys try to be comedians by talking some bullshit to the driver and I wanted to puch these guys in the damn face since they were so annoying >:-0. Anyway I get off at the Briarwood to catch the E or F, whichever comes first so a R32 E arrives and I see a G on the express track heading towards 71 Av. SO then I get the RF window and the T/O is pretty aggressive and we go through the local stops until we switch to the express tracks after 75 Av. Then we're off on the QB express and we do good on the express stopping at Roosevelt in between then arrive at Queens Plaza staying at a average of 30mph then after leaving 23-Ely, were off into the 53 St tube going in the 40's. Then I get off at 7 Av to catch the B or D rather than walk through Times Square to catch the Q.
Top speeds:
Briarwood-Union Tpke-35mph
71 Av-Roosevelt-36mph
Roosevelt-Queens Plaza-39mph
53 St tube-43mph
Then the D comes as soon as the E left 7 Av and I hop on it and we go smoothly until we get held at 42 St so the B could switch over to head north then we switch at 34 to wait for the Q. So a W comes and I let that go then my Q comes about 2 minutes later and we go smoothly on the entire trip soaking up the views of the Manny-B in the process until I reach Newkirk then I go home.
R40 4219 Q EXP
R36WF 9607 <7>
Orion 259 Q44
R32 3779 (E)
R68 2512 (D)
R68 2811 (Q)
The dip after passing 74th st/Broadway station is great, when you reach 90th/Elmhurst, that baby is flying. Imagine a retrofitted slant R40 on that stretch.
I suppose that's plausible. Neither was 145th Street.
The R16's used on the J in 1985/86 had "111th St" on their rollsigns and used them for the most part.
By the way, what were the 36th Street signs really for? What used to actually use it as a southern terminal? I assume it was used for shuttles on the West End, but wouldn't that have been on the top rollsign, not the middle one?
The M has been brown since 1979, but the R16's never got the new signs and the R27/30's didn't get them until 1984/5.
What is it about the green ones? :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
And they are often signed correctly.
No, this detail never makes it into the posted service advisories.
Of course we do not want to make it too easy on the geese, so 9th Avenue (in Manhattan) *is* on the west end (ok west side) of said Manhattan.
Or maybe it is because they gotta write *something* there.
Elias
Try this BMT One if you have too much free time.
If you have much too much free time, maybe you'll design your own.
Let me know if you like, it makes you crazy, both or neither. :)
Hey Movie guys!!
Do you happen to have a video clip of the ( 7 ) Redbird Interiors
as the lights flicker on and off between TSQ and GCT??
IMHO I think this is a scene which will NEVER BE REPEATED again
once the armadillos take over pronto... ever thought to film the interior
of a 7 redbird as the lights flicker leaving TSQ??
;)
Theeeeeeere's a nifty nostalgic idea/suggestion, brahs!!
Once a day?!? I don't wanna become a be*otch.
Hehehehe... "Once a week" sounds more appropos.
If you want to film the "lights out" from TSQ to GCT, make sure you get on a Redbird departing from Track 1. That train would have to crossover onto Track 2, resulting in the lights going out.
PLEASE DON'T GET (handed a ticket) WHILST DOING SO!!
I have a quick question and was hoping someone can help: Does anybody know how deep this UK station is? Somebody asked me and I didn't know the answer. How does this compare with our deep deep stations (Lex/63, Roosevelt, etc).
Also, R32 3558-3421 was a Coney Island R32...I have to search for pictures of it when it was still on the N...
Last weekend there were at least one R40 Slant on the Q..the first and last car had the yellow circle, all interior signs had the diamond...I'll have to upload my digital pictures soon...
With respect to taking pictures...pretend that you're a tourist and you didn't know better...that's what I would do...luckily, I wasn't stopped yet...
Thanks
Jonathan
I presume you mean Notting Hill Gate.
Does anybody know how deep this UK station is?
The Circle/District Line Station is in an open cut. It is 27ft deep.
The Central Line Station is in two deep tubes, with the Westbound track above the Eastbound track. The Westbound track is about 80ft deep and the Eastbound track about 100ft deep.
How does this compare with our deep deep stations (Lex/63, Roosevelt, etc).
Lex/63 is 80ft (upper level) and 100ft (lower level) deep.
Roosevelt Island is 100ft deep.
Both London and NYC have deeper stations than these:
Hampstead (Northern Line - Edgware Branch) - 192ft deep
Bull & Bush (never opened, just under a mile North of Hampstead) - over 200ft deep - near deepest point on LU (250ft)
190th St (8th Av Line) - 140ft deep
191st St (7th Av Line) - 160ft deep
It's enough to make you very tempted to ride a bus or work out a route via the Circle Line...
I really don't like the deep tube stations or trains anyway... I had a wonderful day on Tuesday riding some trains - most of them BR or Subsurface:
0810 Birmingham Snow Hill - London Marylebone 1024
Bakerloo Line - Marylebone - Waterloo
1115 London Waterloo - Epsom (the home town of someone rather special) 1140
Then hung around Epsom for a while...
(418 bus to Kingston-upon-Thames for a bit of shopping...)
(371 bus to Richmond - yes, I know we should have caught the train)
District Line - Richmond - Embankment (to go to the National Gallery)
Random Local Train - London Charing X - London Bridge
To have a look at King's Guy's Campus and have dinner at McDonald's!
(40 bus to Aldgate Station - in a dunno what to do, so we'll ride the first bus that turns up on Borough High St moment)
Circle Line - Aldgate - Victoria
Then sat around drinking in the Reef Bar...
Victoria Line - Victoria - Oxford Circus
Bakerloo Line - Oxford Circus - Marylebone
2210 London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill 0034
See a sampling of today's photos by going here:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.05.19/207th.html
I hope you all enjoy this.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Do you mean Borough of Manhattan but not island of Manhattan?
That looks like the east/north bank of the Harlem River.
Ding ding ding ding! You are correct, sir!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I like this one also.
Well, this is the other side of the Hudson, but oh how the mighty has fallen. This was such an attractive paint scheme.
it gives a legal discription of your rights from another lawyer than mikey :-)
Mark
"You ran into a multi-million dollar WHAT?"
Heheheheee..........
Elias
I think a lot depends on the specific circumstances surrounding the accidents, none of which has been made public.
One can assume that the LRT Operator is supposed to look both ways before entering a street-level intersection, even if the traffic light is in their favor.
Jimmy.
R-32
John
John
BTW, I'm still really curious as to why the stretch between 125-145 is so slow. It seems to be the slowest by far.
One thing I noticed while riding between 125-145, is that the trains tend to rock back and forth a lot, like the ground it unsteady. Strangest thing. What's the point of all these interlockings anyways? Is it soley because the D train must go deeper? I don't see how that could be, since the local C train doesn't really slow down, yet the B train must go under.
Things must be done to speed up this train, it's a shame that it's so slow, and it has so much potential.
July 3, 1997: At 10:20 pm a Queens-bound A train derails under St. Nicholas Avenue in Harlem, just north of the 135th Street Station as it is going over a switch. Mayor Giuliani reports: "It's an absolute miracle no one was killed or seriously injured. What I saw was unbelievable. The last car as smashed in half, just ripped apart." 15 people were injured and service on the A and D was terminated at 59th Street and C service suspended entirely. The Transit Authority was forced to run shuttle trains on the D from 205th to 161st Street in the Bronx, and on the A from 207th Street to 168th Street, in conjunction with shuttle bus service.
Peace,
ANDEE
Any details?
The latest complaint happened last week while I was working as reserve at 59St-CC on the NB 1/9 trains.I was helping out a fellow Traffic Checker when I noticed what was going on and confronted the woman who was demanding where are supervisor was then went on ranting how all we do is stand around and do nothing when I told the supervisor wasn't around.I finally asked her what the problem was and she told me that there was some crazy guy on the train she was on and she was the only one to get out and tell one of the Checker's to go tell the Conductor and they just went and sat down.
Now what was I supposed to say?We have a our own job to do,the woman herself should've gone and told the T/O about it.Why come to us when you can tell the person driving the train or opening/closing the door's yourself.It's not that hard afterall.We're not supposed to be disturbed while we do our work,ESPECIALLY when the train or bus is already there.That's the worse time to do it since we're in the middle of writing down the info that's required of us to do.
That's too pessimistic. There have been countless improvements since the low point in the mid-1970s.
--Mark
Peaxe,
ANDEE
Express trains passing 135th st are very slow also, some timers on straight A trains should be burned too.
What about gay A trains. So shoot me, I couldn't resist.
Peace,
ANDEE
And with "beach season" coming up, Friday is an IMPORTANT celebration for all subtalkers to take part in. Details here:
CELEBRATE FRIDAY MAY 23!
(after all, if some of us read the POST, then its sister paper is spongeworthy too)
The timers south of 86 St make no sense to me since it is straight track however south of 72 St the timer makes sense since the CC disaster in 1978 and there is a small squiggly curve that trains may not be able to go fast.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I'm sure with the geniuses terminating trains at 145th instead of 168, must be even WORSE today than it was back in the days of stone wheels and foot propulsion. :)
--Mark
The reasons the trains move so slow in this area is that there indeed are numerous interlockings here, with the Concourse line merging with the 8th Avenue line. So tranversing the interlockings in and of itself is one factor slowing down trains, but due to the amount of interlockings and the volume of trains using this section of the system, many timers are in the area to ensure train speed is slow enought to maximize the safety of passengers, crews and trains. As there are so many merges, the TA has set a very conservative speed limit and has taken numerous steps to see that it is adhered to.
I'm sure the derailment someone mentioned in one response was a contributing factor in setting the speed at a low level; but others have pointed out that this area apparently has been relatively slow for quite some time.
I've also found it interesting that the strech between 125 south to about 81 Street (express) is quite speedy (I don't recall seeing any timers) but at 81, the trains hit the brakes. I guess the anwser has something to do with wanting to ensure that trains don't come into 59 Street too fast, but if that is the reason for the timers appearing at 81 Street, couldn't the same thing have been accomplished with timers around 72 Street?
You would think they would have included a s/b local-to-express crossover switch north of 59th.
Actually, we also ran neck-and-neck with a n/b D train out of 59th on one of those two Sundays. Then after we stepped off our train at 81st, an A train thundered past as made our way to the museum entrance. All I could think was, where did that train come from?
CPW once hosted an active railway ... from what I'm hearing, it's gotten as slow and infrequent as the BMT. When I used to venture out to Brooklyn as a kid to joyride, that was the one thing I immediately noticed. LONG waits if you just missed a train. When we went back to the city for Kissmoose of 2001, I noticed it was the same on the 6th Avenue line as well. That was spooky. While the IND wasn't exactly the IRT conga line 24/7, it didn't appear to be ABANDONED either.
Finally on November 24, 1967, I experienced a CPW express jaunt for the first time - on a howling, wailing D train. And to think my mother beat me to it - she rode on a D to the Bronx a month before and told me it flat out flew. I was jealous, to say the least.
By the time I became a Saturday commuter that fall, four cars was the minimum train length I ever saw on the AA. Towards Christmas, 8-car AA trains were the norm along with 10-car A and E trains. Otherwise AA trains were four cars, E trains six and A trains, 8.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smmanxbx.gif
But yes, you've got to keep it down. The ONE good thing is once the D diverges and you clear it, you can pick up speed into 145 faster than the A can ... even earlier for the center express track to the Bronx ... that's a LEFT diverge.
I can't recall a time that I *ever* saw anything parked there on either side.
Now as to SEEING things, ya gots me there - from space aliens to Osama ... but never saw a TRAIN there. :)
A sidenote, why do some signals have lights below the signal number? (The above A3 674 is one. There is also one on the s/b local track at 75 Avenue.) Why is this?
Adam
(ENYNova5205@aol.com)
Why are MARC's HHP-8s here again? I thought they were going to enter service and such, now what's wrong with them?
I saw the HHP-8 you speak of last Sunday en-route to Haverford for their graduation.
Or when all 3 escalators at Smith-9th/IND are OOS, you can take your crack and conquer the highest elevated NYC subway station.
wayne
Some other no-escalator exits:
60 steps plus an up-ramp at York St.
75 steps from the L at 6th Ave.
--the Fluahing IRT platform to the mezzanine at Grand Central, esp when the escalator isn't working. And it frequently ain't.
Who thunk up these stations? Jack La Lanne?
www.forgotten-ny.com
2/3 to 4/5 is. 2/3 to NB J/M/Z isn't much better.
Nobody's mentioned Borough Hall yet? M/N/R to NB 4/5. Ouch. At least you can stop at the bank on the way. (Too bad the bank has no floor.)
How about F to 4/5 using the out-of-system transfer? Assume that all escalators are broken and that you're not willing to wait for the elevator.
Or the walkway to Broadway at 191st? There's no climbing but it's a long walk.
Has anyone here had to use the stairs at Clark? My last time there, the doors to the staircase were open at both ends.
Just long. Hardly any stairs worth mentioning. 2 flights down and 1 flight up.
Adam
(ENYNova5205@aol.com)
Was at Gun Hill/WPR last weekend. That escalator is out of service as well, with the metal grids all torn out. "For years", according to a fellow passenger.
The escalator at East Tremont/Boston Road never seems to be working either. That station is exceptionally high for some reason. Could it be a high water table due to the proximity of the Bronx River? There doesn't appear to be a noticeable dip in the local topography, either by sight or on topographical maps.
All of the elevated stops along the 1 from 225th to Van Cortlandt are extremely high. If they can put an escalator at the Pelham Bay and Woodlawn terminals, why not Van Cortlandt?
When there are no escalators going up at the Jackson Heights transfer complex (which is very often), it can take ten minutes to get upstairs to the 7- longer in rush hours.
---Chapter 11
Peace,
ANDEE
It's a little misleading. There's no mezzanine immediately under the tracks to break up the ascent - you go straight up to platform level. But the station platform isn't much higher than most elevated platforms.
--Mark
Another tough one is the transfer from the L platform all the way up to the M platform at Myrtle-Wyckoff Ave, when the escalators are not running. That is some climb, especially when you are running late and you try to run all the way up.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. Included are 2nd Avenue line, the IND Second System and many other original lines, a few are based on or are variations of proposed lines that railfans on Subtalk have posted in the past in various threads. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
I would like to share this with as many railfans as possible. Weekly posting of this thread will continue for the remainder of May and through mid-June.
Rembember you can email me privately by clicking on my handle, with your request or to ask questions.
For those who responded, thank you for your interest and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much.
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
I had a similar experience...the first time I ever rode MARTA was when I got bumped during a layover in Atlanta to a flight six hours later. I got to ride MARTA, plus the airline gave me a $500.00 voucher for the "inconvenience."
Can't wait to see the pictures!
Mark
Continental.
Lets limit it to abandoned facilities that can be seen by the naked eye from open transit facilities. This excludes abandoned areas that have been used for other purposes, like 14th Street IRT side platforms and the Brooklyn Bridge side platforms.
Candidates include:
1) IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle middle platform
2) IRT City Hall (I've never personally seen this but I understand that the platform and tracks are clean and graffiti-free)
3) Chambers Street BMT middle platform;
Any others?
Honorable Mention:
Old East 180th st station ROW to the Dyre Ave Line, currently a Transit Bureau District Office.
However, unlike some of the other examples noted here, it is not usable as a station. No gap fillers, no fare control, etc.
While I agree City Hall is not usable as a station, there is a mezzanine and fare control area upstairs. It is not usually part of the photos when you see photos of the station at City Hall.
This is one of two exits from the mezzanine. I assume one was an entrance, and the other was an exit, just like most of the Contract 1 IRT stations had.
This is a photo of the other one. It was totally dark, and to see what it looked like, I flashed a photo into the darkness, and this is what resulted....a second of light on the stairway, and then back to the eternal darkness.
This is the stairway from the track level platform to the mezzanine. The circle of lights in the middle was a skylight.
More mezzanine
This is the bottom of the stairway between the platform and the mezzanine. The missing lights along the arch were there the second time I went to the station (I don't have that trip's photos scanned). They actually did a lot of work between my two trips.
More mezzanine. I have no idea what was behind that plywooded up arch on the right. Anyone know? Maybe the ticket/coin/token booth?
In the mezzanine, at the top of the stairway between platform and mezzanine.
Think of how many trains came through this tunnel, includuing the ceremonial first train almost 100 years ago, seen in so many photos.
Unfortunately, no redbirds passed through that day on the 6, and back then they were VERY common yet.
Arti
They were going to do that, but there were concerns about a station under City Hall being an attractive terrorist target. I think there would probably be a way to get around that, but these days terrorist concerns trump all else.
There would be no reason to allow bags to be brought in, securty issu solved.
Arti
I'm a bit confused, how could a terrorist injure that station? The average Israeli-grade suicide bomber with a Semtex Jacket would do largely cosmetic damage, kill probably most everyone on the platform, destroy a bunch of plexiglas and any train passing through would be damaged. It'd take something like two gym bags full of C4, a semtex jacket AND a backpack full of shaped charges before you'd start talking structural damage (kinda hard to hide that kind of power, right?), and then we all remember the first WTC attack, and how well basement bombs do. Oklahoma City would have just been cosmetic damage had the building's rebar only interlocked better.
Perhaps City Hall needs to be strengthened, not only to open an observation platform at City Hall IRT station, but just for general terrorist threats, and even as a general upkeep kind of thing.
Although I don't totally agree that City Hall even would be a target, way too much of a domestic issue, I'd expect to see Rockefeller, TSQ, GCT, South Ferry, the UN, and a myriad other places go before they even thought of City Hall.
Arti
However, even when it was usable, it had very low ridership. That's why it closed. If the station ever did re-open to passenger service—which I think is extremely unlikely—it would be a kind of loss leader for the MTA, an artistic showpiece whose existence could not be justified on pragmatic grounds.
Low ridership and the fact that it would have needed to be extended if they wanted to continue it's use. Not only is it curved, it is VERY short. Extending a curved station on a loop like that would have been a nightmare, even if it was a very high use station. The extension would probably have brought it almost to the Brooklyn Bridge platform.
It's a real shame that they aren't going to restore it for it's 100th birthday. I had visions a few years ago of the station being completely restored, right down to light once again shining through the glass stained ceiling skylights. I believe the vaulted windows were covered with tar to avoid light shinging through during WWII in case of an air raid.
The hope of any restoration has been crushed.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/City%20Hall%20Station/cityhall.html
Honorable mention would be the center platform at 59th Street. It's usually kept quite clean.
But Chambers JMZ center platform?????? You have GOT to take that off your possible candidate list.
R-32
The side platforms are garbage strewn and the station itself is a embarassment to the system, it wasn't even rebuilt with Brooklyn Bridge/Chambers St, shows how much they cared. At least the center island platform isn't as bad as the sides [better not speak too soon]. Remember th ecenter platform at CC is used for trips and its in Midtown so its going to be kept in a pretty tidy condition.
Photos from Joe Korner's site http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctind/roosvelt-rock-line/index.html
Yes, the platform is quite obstructed. The trackways, however, are pretty "clean".
--Mark
We know that you do read the postings in here and let me assure you that it is appreciated but if you decide that this topic would make a good article (and it probably would) could you be a bit more discreet on the locations? The last thing any of us would want is to give vandals a list of targets to hit.
While I am sure most of them would not read the Times, word does get around.
As for City Hall, from what I hear they even have police officers assigned to the platform at that station.
Very true but all things considered most people don't even pay much attention to those places until it gets into the media.
I don't know if they still have anyone assigned to the City Hall station.
(Thats kinda like the tree falling in the woods one)
More importantly, how did he get in??? We probabally know that it would be a railfan who would do nothing but snap photos.
--Mark
While I was down there a G train went by on. (very Twilight Zone) You could have imagined it stopping and people getting off.
The G Train passed through going the other direction.
I hear that they're reopening Franklin Square for the opening of the Independence Mall Visitors Center (is that the name?), so it won't be on the list for too long.
Yes, life is good at the 76th Street station.
The terror alert system should be changed to include the color BROWN.
Hey wait, porky pal, that's sorta treading on my turf ...
Not too much point of that when NY's terror by color system hasn't changed, is there?
Yes, even brown for AP.
Warning: Orange Alert
Expect delays due to overreacting passengers and police officers.
Terror alert changed to same color as the IRT 7th Ave Lines.
Seriously, let's hope that will never get to that point.
Instead of the current color code system:
7th Avenue Alert: EXTREME
6th Avenue Alert: HIGH
Broadway Alert: GUARDED
8th Avenue Alert: LOW
Lexington Avenue Alert: VERY LOW
37 POTOMAC
CODE RED
RIDE FREE
and they have no idea what code red the sign refers to. I think they might change the sign to say CODE RED OZONE or OZONE ALERT DAY but that has yet to be decided.
When people take things for granted and ignore the warning signs, everyone suffers in the long run. Some people KNEW that those terrorists taking lessons in flight school wanted to take off but NOT land a plane. The flight instructors reported this suspicious activity to the FBI and possibly ATF, but they turned a blind eye on that matter.
And whats the point of having a color rating system if they don't bother to share it in any meaningfull way.
1) There's no airport in Providence; it's in Warwick
2) What does it have to do with 9/11?
No, they both took off from Boston. The hijackers flew to Boston from Portland, Maine.
Is that near Quahog?
In the Family Guy episode "Road to Road Island" Stewie and Brian were at the airport and Osama Bin Laden boarded a plane.
It was edited out for the reruns. :-(
Remember the PRIME DIRECTIVE of terrorism ... MAKE people afraid. Our Homeland Security department has made it as easy as a phone call. Every time they say "we make big boom" into a cell phone, our government makes sure that Depends fly off the store shelves.
Now that's a disgusting mental image :)
Remember when it happened, Bush fled to some air base in Nebraska or somewhere and they circulated a story that the bad guys had a bearing on Air-Force One, then, nothing ever came of that story. He was just scared and rand like a child. Ever since its been one overreacton after another.
At the time it was unknown where any more terrorist attacks if any were going to take place. And it was not truly Bush's choice to go to the Strategic Command, he was ordered to do so. Eventually he overruled them.
Cluck cluck cluck ...
Sounds right out of Paul Gobbels' playbook. Better check Shrub for traces of a moustache.
Wal-Mart reports low stocks of bedsheets. Plastic sheeting low again at Lowe's & Home Depot.
I've contacted Mr. Peabody, and he's agreed to let me use the Way-Bak machine. I'm going back to 1887 and helping Frank in Richmond. No worries, no towelheads behind every bush. It's gotta be better than all the crapola spewing forth from Foggy Bottom.
Attorney General Ashcroft is visiting an elementary school. After the typical
civics presentation, he announces, "All right, boys and girls, you can all ask
me questions now."
A young boy named Bobby raises his hand and says, "I have three questions:
1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore?
2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties?
3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama Bin Laden yet?"
Just then the bell sounds and all the kids run out to the playground.
Fifteen minutes later, the kids come back in class and again. Ashcroft says,
"I'm sorry we were interrupted by the bell. Now, you can all ask me questions."
A young girl raises her hand and says, "I have five questions:
1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore?
2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties?
3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama Bin Laden yet?"
4. Why did the bell go off 20 minutes early?
5. Where's Bobby?"
Enjoying an all expenses paid vacation in Cuba, and not in Havana or at any of the resorts.
-Robert King
I am also waiting for someone to propose a Committie for Government Safety.
Reading what the FBI seems to be doing in the Hatfield issue, we may be getting to that more or less here.
It all makes as much sense as the contant debate over 76th Street.
It doesn't exist. It does exist.
Suicide bombers blow up buildings and people 3000 miles away, and "evidence shows unconfirmed threats of possible attacks in the US" is blasted over the TV. Is it any wonder paranoia is growing among Americans?
And Selkirk is right. All the crapola shows that the terrorists win every time the alert level bounces.
"Oh my God, the government says the terrorists might attack. What can we do? What can we do?"
Rule Number 1 -- LIFE HAS RISKS. There are no guarantees. You can walk out of your house and get hit by a car, or have a major heart attack.
Rule Number 2 -- Submit to the crapola being spewed by the media (the PRIME reason for the paranoia) and the terrorists win, and they don't have to do anything- we're doing for them!!!!!
NOTE: 90% of what you see on television is fake. Don't believe me? Law & Order is filmed in NEW JERSEY!!!
And sometimes in the courtroom on the 2nd floor of my building! :)
Brainstorm! I just figured it all out. Depends are, I believe, made by Proctor & Gamble. Find out who's been making big purchases of P&G stock lately, and we'll know who's been making these threats.
Sorry, couldn't resist...:)
It's a home video showing a man trying to attack a rather large woman in front of a house. It might be some sort of dispute between neighbors, but no explanation is given. Anyway, the man finds out that he'd bitten off a little more than he could chew, so to speak, as the woman sends his sprawling on his posterior a few times. It's really funny.
Peter,
Which plug-in? I thought I had them all.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some on this board need that brand of beating, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which shows a certain lack of imagination since the French had foiled a plot in the previous year to hijack a plane and crash it into the Eiffel Tower. But of course we are too superior to pay attention to anything that happens in France.
Tom
http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/gign.html
and don't forget to check:
http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=911 for the LEFT wing side and
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/sept-s26.shtml for the republican side of the issue ...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/19/165802.shtml
Now just so folks can understand where I'm coming from, there's every good reason to ensure that our law enforcement and administrative types know when there's a higher probability of a terrorist event, that's what police teletypes and such are for. THESE are the people who need to be warned of any available information in order to protect themselves and us.
It is a horrendous disservice to have perky cable news anchors chirping news of fear and destruction without so much as a HINT as to what to DO about it, what to be alert for and what the "common Joe and Jane" can do to help. This, all this "chatter" is destructive in my own mind and seems to be serving NO purpose other than making America cower in fear, just like the terrorists wanted. :(
Or is it part of "Campaign 2004?" It's not like there's any "specific credible threat" to us (they SAID this) ...
You can be sure that when people in myLanta can do something about the terrorist actions, or if there is even a hint of a terrorist attack on hotLanta, See ehN ehN (with Paula "My face is so tight you could bounce quarter off it" Zhan) will be all over it!
And you can bet so will the Weather Channel, even if a tornado were sweeping through Midtown, they'd ignore it, and tell you what the weather would be when the terrorist strike.
All we can hope is that the Braves are the target of said fictional terrorist strike. Heck I'd buy the holy warriors a round of apple juice or sodee pop if they could just knock down a portion of Turner Field!
Thanks for taking it to another level! HA!
And of course since NYC's been orange FOREVER and has NEVER changed, this scam ... err ... "game" approaches the kind of odds that Division of the Lootery LIKES. :)
You've been saying that for months now, and frankly, we DON'T CARE! You've been laying low since 1984 while the rest of us have been having the time of our lives. Your loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
We should organize the Von Subtalk Family to dress in traditional railfan garb and tour the system, singing "Edelweiss" for the adult confidence garment wearing brave gestapo transit police at each river crossing portal station guarding them. Of course, we'll hand out boxes of Krispy Kreme donuts as well.
E comes in and holding lights go on the local track at the Manhattan bound Queens Plaza Platform. E leaves and another arrives with an R (no holding lights on the E). Board the R and off goes the E, now auto recording in the station "To maintian even spacing between trains we are holding this.........local........train, please be paitent". Now third E train arrives and we lose the holding lights so both trains close down and off we go.
Get into the 11th St cut and low and behold we have a red signal where we merge with the N/W in the tube.
Dosen't Queensboro Master Tower know where the N and W trains are? What is the point of making customers wait TWICE, once at the station and then in the cut?
Shouldn't the R just have held a little longer in the station (opps might have held on V service, wouldn't want to switch them to the express track BEFORE Queens Plaza).
Sometimes I don't follow the logic, this is after 4pm, I assume we are into rush hour so why such a long schedule adjustment??
I don't think that move (D1 to D3) can be made at 36 St?
Queens Plaza is the locus of illogic. Seems that the schedules
are arranged so that the E and V arrive at nearly the same time
southbound. The V is always given preference but no connection
is made. It's almost as if they are deliberately giving the
finger to E riders! Meanwhile the empty V goes ahead and the
E does the 2 MPH blind trip crawl into the pocket. Then the V
turns the corner onto 6 Ave and plugs the F.
ROTFLMFAO, Thanks Lou. I needed the laugh.
Peace,
ANDEE
I post at the Rider Diaries, and anti-V people say that the fact the V is given preference over the E at that interlocking and that the F was sent to Manhattan via 63rd is a reason for getting rid of it...though I digress, it doesn't seem that serious, does it?
If anything, most people would generally the V has accomplished its goal of reducing crowdedness on the E and F.
(Of course when your train is directly behind another train, your train can't reach 60 mph, a big disappointment in those tubes.)
It's a bad schedule.
In order for merges to operate efficiently and maintain uniform headways, each of the routes must operate at the same service level. They don't. The E and F operate at 15 tph each. The R and V operate at 10 tph each. The N and W operate at 7 tph each.
Given these disparities, there is now way design a schedule that will permit the E and V to merge at Queens Plaza without frequent merging conflicts. Similarly there is no way to have the R merge with the N and W without frequent merging confilcts. Finally, there will be merging conflicts between the V and F at 50th St.
This is not to imply that tower operations cannot make a bad situation much worse.
Why can't a service operating at 15 tph (i.e. every 4 minutes)
merge with one operating on 8 minutes? It would seem that is
the one example (periods are exact multiples) where the services
would remain "phase locked" and would not drift into conflict.
You would be giving up uniform headways. You are proposing: 0(E), 2(V), 4(E), 8(E), 10(V),... That is not the optimum spacing for a combined 22.5 tph operation which should be every 160 seconds. If you want to adjust the trains with holding lights then you get a long wait as follows:
0:00(E)-->0:00
2:40(V)-->2:40
4:00(E)-->5:20
8:00(E)-->8:00
You would be giving up uniform headways.
No, he wouldn't.
00:00:00 (X)
00:02:00 (Y)
00:04:00 (X)
00:08:00 (X)
00:10:00 (Y)
00:12:00 (X)
et cetera...
It would however begin to resemble the Bakerloo line schedule.
It really depends on whether or not the stations are heavily used. Lex definitely is to the point of being unsafe. Unequal headways would mean that the platforms would become crowded during the 4 minute interval from passengers entering the station (from the Lex). It would also mean that the platforms would become crowded during the 2 minute intervals from passengers leaving the E or V.
15 Es per hour at 100% capacity.
10 Vs per hour at 60% or more of capacity. That means that there are 6 equivalent full V trains.
So 6/21 = 2/7 = 28% of total passengers on E 53rd are on Vs. Not negligible.
10 Vs per hour at 60% or more of capacity. That means that there are 6 equivalent full V trains.
So 6/21 = 2/7 = 28% of total passengers on E 53rd are on Vs. Not negligible.
Not negligible, but it does add some flexibility.
If all E trains in an hour are going to run at 100% capacity on average and people arrive at stations uniformly for that hour, every E train will run at 100% (instead of some at 90% and some at 110%) if the headways are equal. So 60 minutes in an hour ÷ 15 trains = 4 minute headways. For there not to be overloaded trains, this would have to remain equal for all trains: there is no flexibility.
If V trains, however, are running on average at 60% capacity, it does not matter if some run at 100% and others at 20%. In other words, there is flexibility. So the average headway at 10tph would of course be 6 minutes. However, there is ten-sixths flexibility on that headway, making the maximum allowable headway 10 minutes.
Now we all know that on NYCT, the minimum headway usually scheduled is 2 minutes. If both E and V trains ran on their average headways through 53rd Street there'd be a problem. Consider:
E: 00, 04, 08, 12, 16, 20 etc
V: 02, 08, 14, 20 etc
So both routes cannot run on their average headways at once. The E train has no flexibility, but loadings would allow up to a 4 minute shift on the V without overloading. By using half that flexibility, the following is possible:
E: 00, 04, 08, 12, 16, 20 etc
V: 02, 10, 14, 22 etc
Does this make the V negligible? In my opinion, not, but it does have a certain flexibility.
I haven't been up there in a while but I think everything is controlled automatically, in which case the N/W will always have preference as it has the straight lineup. So the R almost always gets screwed if there's an N/W coming down at the same time.
Larry
'If you get caught, have an accent ready (not arabic), and pretend to be a tourist'?
'It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission'?
...I never let it stop me though, and never had a problem at Jamaica.
Hey!!! Where's AirTrain??
Geeze, goin' O.T. again. Well, anyway, not a damn thing. The 9/11 attack struck deep. How can we forget that?? Let's go to a gut level response.
The F**KED with us, man!! At least in the lifetimes of everybody alive today, nothing like it Ever Happened Before. And the nature of it calls for responses that will F**K with us too. Does it affect me personally? Nope. There's always gonna be rules regarding everything anyway. The beauty of this country is that we can still remain personally free while having to deal with various and sundry "suggested/coerced" rules. They surround us like gnats but they don't (generally) torture or kill us. That's freedom.
So maybe youse guys who are goofin' on the alerts and all could remember that. And those depends jokes gettin' kinda old, IMO.
I don't agree. As far as I'm concerned, the sight of heavily armed cops and Guardsmen in Penn Station (and elsewhere) is highly offensive. No, it doesn't directly affect my everyday activities, but it's a miserable sight to see.
And those depends jokes gettin' kinda old, IMO.
I know. I'm trying to think of a replacement.
2/3 of the deaths ob queens blvd could be prevented if people simpy crossed at crosswalk and waited for the walk sign.
Other cities also strictly enforce rules of cars stoping when pedestrians are in the crosswalk. Their are white lines crosswalks. If drivers see a person in the crosswalk he/she must stop and allow safe passage.
NYC needs to enforce the laws it has, and get rid of the laws that make no sense
I disagree somewhat. In Bismarck, that is the rule, but people get killed doing that too.
A car in the left lane (4 lane road) stopped for a little kid who was crossing in front of him. Car in the right lane thought that guy was turning and passed him on the right.
RIP
That's why California has a law making it illegal to pass a vehicle stopped at a crosswalk whether there is anyone in the crosswalk (marked or unmarked) or not.
Tom
...please spare me. You would find your sorry, rude, ass in jail so fast your head would spin.
Peace,
ANDEE
(quote from GTAIII)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Ain't that the truth.
Peace,
ANDEE
The cops are there to enforce the law
Try following the law and you have no problems PERIOD
The problem is people like yourself feel the law does not apply to them
Tough noogies
The laws are in place for a reason. People want them to keep out of control people in check with our socities norms
Hmmmm, I'd like to see you do that LOL and tell us what happens if you run into a situation like that.......
Darlene gets so ego-obessessed, she posts non-sensical stuff like this...though I think I speak for all of us when we already know and expect this from her!
According to the site, this station is in Bay Ridge. Which station is it?
I can guarantee that it's not 77th, 86th, and I'm almost positive that it's not Bay Ridge Avenue.
I didn't actually use the station when I was there a few weeks ago -- in fact, it was closed for the weekend, with shuttle buses substituting.
The liquor store is on the 5th ave side of the street
I've driven by their a million times and never noticed a subway entrance
2) Do you know if the 20 R-36 cars will be coming up the West Side tonight? What route do they take to 207th? Upper West Side IRT? CPW? Neither?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Good!
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC, its too bad the Redbirds era on the mainline is finally over :-(.
The meaning of the word was discussed in another thread in the past.
And it isn't just "made up." erythros means red in Ancient Greek and ornithos is bird. There is no name for the disease that some people have with loving Redbirds here so I had to make one up.
And no, I'm not going to call it Redbirdophilia. That's just brain-dead.
And of course all of this is going to be decried. Any insult of the Redbirds here is like insulting Almighty God.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Good-bye Redbirds,
Good-bye Redbirds,
Good-bye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
(To the tune of Good Night, Ladies from The Music Man.)
It's funny how it goes around here. Some people will probably bawl over the last one's going (like Choo Choo, I'd imagime :-)) and some people who could honestly give a damn (I look at American Pig's direction).
If anything, I consider myself in the middle. I respect and admire the Redbirds' transformation throughout their lives and what they have endured...but I also know they must go, for the good of us commuters! Farewell 'birds.
Heh, the saddest thing is that I won't have a digital camera in time for the last 'bird. I just know it!!!...and I hate myself for it. >_
Same here :-). Its true the Redbirds time has come but hey at least the R142 order took long as was long overdue or the Birds would of been gone already. Enjoy them while you can b/c soon they'll be a piece of subway history and a memory.
BTW, which (surviving) R36WF cars are in the best shape (with least rust, body rot, leaks, bondo, etc.)? I would like some of them to be used as work units, reserve fleet, sold to private museums, or railroads.
avid
R-32s never had single status, they were always married pairs.
Peace,
ANDEE
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Wow, there must be some abandoned line in Brooklyn that the A used to use, as they couldn't possibly mean our current A line tracks being unused.
to the exotic - exploring a light-rail line or letting passengers ride on freight lines in Bay Ridge.
Obviously they mean The Bay Ridge Line, not freight lines in Bay Ridge. I love how these items are really researched before they report on them.
Poor article research. We all know that the 4 tracks to 76th Street are in Queens ....
--Mark
They prepose increasing of hour service by utilizing OPTP
They rcognize the need to have more frequent train service but also the need for it to by the right size and affordable to add more service
and they prepose Increasing stations access at all hours by using HEETS and secoundary entrances
One note to all train operators. One man crews is good for the train operator bur not good for the TWU pocketbooks.
One man crews increase your take home pay, and will casue increased ridership due to the fact that riders will switch from other forms of transportaion and it will make areas further from the central business district more attractive increaing ridership.
although 50% of train crew positions will be elliminated through attrition based on the current schedule. Addtioal train per hour will be added resuluting in an effective 25% reduction in train crew postions at higher pay.
Further east on Hillside Ave (not a revolutionary idea), though admittedly that has nothing to do with Brooklyn.
From the article:
Establish longer routes on the F, G, L, R, V, 4 and 5 lines.
Extend the life of retired subway cars by refurbishing them.
Allow for street-level transfers at intersecting train lines, such as the G and M in Williamsburg.
Connect downtown Brooklyn to lower Manhattan and Kennedy Airport through an East River tunnel.
Equip city bus drivers with satellite global positioning system receivers so they don't bunch up and cause delays.
Add express bus service in areas where trains don't go.
1)And what are talking about with the F, do they mean so by extending the Hillside line further east? They need to read on this board as we could make good plans on extending every single.
2)I think they should keep a reserve fleet once the new R160 order comes remember what happened with the R27/30.......
3)I'm mixed on this one, while it would make sense to create a G/M transfer at Lorimer-Bway how much people will actually use it is the unknown.
4)And where would the money come from?????
5)I thought the system was a making in process. I thought the first one went kaput.
6)Yeah I think some of us a while back came up with some nice express bus proposals to provide service to areas with no subway service. Its the best they could do w/o using billions of dollars to build a new subway line.
1 Establish longer routes on the F, G, L, R, V, 4 and 5 lines."
Lovely, but where do the necessary billions come from?
"2 Extend the life of retired subway cars by refurbishing them."
Probably one of the more sensible ideas, but it assumes that you have something to use them for - presumably for covering idea 1, above?
"3 Allow for street-level transfers at intersecting train lines, such as the G and M in Williamsburg."
Yes! Now that tokens are gone, the out-of-station free transfers could be expended to a lot more station pairs very cheaply.
"4 Connect downtown Brooklyn to lower Manhattan and Kennedy Airport through an East River tunnel."
Already discussed ad nauseam on this board. Again, where are the billions?
"5 Equip city bus drivers with satellite global positioning system receivers so they don't bunch up and cause delays."
Good idea in theory. Trouble is, they don't work. High tech is too fragile for mounting on buses, or out in the rain and frost in the street.
"6 Add express bus service in areas where trains don't go."
Good idea. Any ideas on how to keep them "express" when there are rush-hour traffic jams?
GPS systems can be made rugged enough to survive even a NYC bus. The question is whether they will receive the satellite signals amidst all the electronic interference in NYC. Hand held GPSs tend not to work in NYC.
Well, it could extend to New Lots Ave. I'm not sure the practicality of that idea, but it coudl be done.
The V can't be extended b/c of the shortage of rolling stock and the Bergen interlockings aren't rebuilt....
The report acknowledges that more rolling stock is needed. Their suggestion is that as new cars are acquired, old ones should be refurbished instead of being retired. And even under the MTA's plans, net additions to the fleet are anticipated in coming years.
The V could be extended without the rebuilt Bergen interlocking. The local/express switch would need to occur past Smith-9th Sts.
It seems like they wanted a NEW extension of the 3 & 4 east of NL Av to Queens and I don't see that happening although it was kinda vague. It can be done but New Lots Av doesn't need that much service to begin with during the day.
The V could be extended without the rebuilt Bergen interlocking. The local/express switch would need to occur past Smith-9th Sts.
Without the adequate rolling stock forget about it. If they were to implement such a thing now in 2003, the reserve fleets [in case a train breaks down] would be very tight and from what other Subtalkers have said in the past, the Church Av interlockings are in no condition to handle trains at this moment.
Extend the F? Where could it possibly go?
The report doesn't propose extending the F. It proposes making the F express in Brooklyn, and extending the G/V to replace the F as the Culver local during rush hours.
The report does propose extending the V and the G.
Wow, there must be some abandoned line in Brooklyn that the A used to use, as they couldn't possibly mean our current A line tracks being unused.
The report--among many other options considered--observes that the A could switch to the unused outer local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, pass through the disused Court St station, and from there into a new East River tunnel. It would require the Transit Museum to be relocated. This is one of the well known options for bringing the LIRR/Airport shuttle into Lower Manhattan.
The report--among many other options considered--observes that the A could switch to the unused outer local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, pass through the disused Court St station, and from there into a new East River tunnel…
…that could go to the Second Avenue subway perhaps?
Yeah, but it would just be so much cooler to put a station back into service that had been decomissioned back in 1946. Of course, that's only if a suitable replacement museum site could be found. Then again, I think building a new subway is more important than keeping the museum open...so I would tolerate a delay if they had to close the museum for a while in order to move it somewhere else. I mean we're already tolerating the current closure...btw, do you know when it will reopen? :)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
The problem is that they just put so much money into the Museum, which would go down the drain. But if they wanted to relocated it, there is a place available. The unused tracks at Chambers Street, especially if they were to complete the line realignment and move the mainline completely over to the East.
I suggest the lower level of 9th Av / 39th St in Brooklyn. Farily easy to lock up on both ends, immediate yard access, accommodations for 30 10' B division trains.
--Mark
The proposal suggests moving the Transit Museum to Atlantic Terminal, on the theory that fewer platforms will be used there once there is a direct LIRR connection into Lower Manhattan.
Whether or not Court Street will be put into service is entirely up to NYCT.
Even if those tracks are used, I don't think the station itself would reopen. The whole point is to provide an express to Manhattan, and there's no need to slow the service down by making a stop there. It's awfully close to a number of other stations with better connections—which is one of the reasons why the station is disused in the first place.
…that could go to the Second Avenue subway perhaps?
The report provides a masterful summary of the options. A connection to the SAS would provide Brooklyn riders with a valuable alternative for reaching the East Side. The drawback is that the SAS's Hanover Square and Seaport stations are about 1/2 mile east of the WTC and WFC, but this could be ameliorated with underground people movers. The other option is to connect the new tunnel to the Broadway subway, whose stations are more centrally located.
It ain't so easy. You should read the description in the SDEIS which explains why this option was not pursued.
Warning though. The page doesn't show up on my IE 5.2 for Mac but it does for OmniWeb 4.0 for Mac. I'm sure it'll open up for PC browsers…surprise, surprise :-(
Open up the blank page and open source code (it's View>Source on IE 5.2) and use the Find command to look for ".pdf" to find the filenames.
Replace "BklynTrans.html" on the address bar with each respective filename to open/download them.
This is the text of the page:
Press Release (pdf 85k)
POSTED 5-16-03
Executive Summary (pdf 769k)
POSTED 5-16-03
Download the Document (pdf 2.5M)
Near Term Operational Improvements and
Longer Term System Expansion Possibilities
POSTED 5-16-03
Appendix A (pdf 1.2M)
Figures A1 through A19
POSTED 5-20-03
Appendix B (pdf 37k)
Off-Peak Discounted Fares
POSTED 5-20-03
Summary Map of Proposed Improvements
(pdf 1.0M)
Summary Map of Proposed Improvements
(jpg 733k)
Press Release (pdf 85k)
Executive Summary (pdf 769k)
Download the Document (pdf 2.5M)
Appendix A (pdf 1.2M)
Appendix B (pdf 37k)
Summary Map of Proposed Improvements (pdf 1.0M)
Summary Map of Proposed Improvements (jpg 733k)
Thanks :-)
Anyway back on topic, som eof these proposals are only a dream lie using the tracks that head towards the Transit Museum to build a new tunnel into Manhattan. Now some of the things like improved express bus service and extending the G to Church Av should be done also IMO but I wouldn't count on the 5 minute headway and the Culver express resuming would be nice.
The express via West End COULD be done if scheduled & done correctly. I don't think the 5 really has to come to Brooklyn since the 4 could handle it however they should increase 2 & 3 service from 10 minute headways to 8. One thing they were kind of vague on was the fact that they didn't specify on where the express would start from.
As I posted before west end express will attract significantly more riders to the west end line.
Of course reduced express bus service will need to happen. 1-3 min headways on the x28/x38 is a major cost.
Thier is also significant developement along the west end whcih may oush uo ridership
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I added this sentence because two word responses are bad.
Mark
That would have been logical.
Stupid king.
Stupid king."
You win. That is by far the funniest thing I've ever read here. Actual wit. Damn. I'm impressed.
Ellis Island, not Liberty or Staten.
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
How come ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Bill Newkirk"
--mark
Sez who?
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
http://www.communityconsulting.org/BklynTransit/BklynTrans.html
It's a 55-page report and analysis of potential transit improvements for Brooklyn. While not all of these ideas will happen, it's an extremely detailed and thoughtful study, bolstered with real data.
Ideas range from fairly simple no-brainers (re-opening closed fare controls with HEETs) to pie-in-the-sky (using the Bay Ridge freight line for transit service). There are 26 ideas, identified A-Z, listed broadly by ease of implementation. For instance, "A" suggests increasing service with OPTO and delayed fleet retirements. "Z" suggests several long-term transit studies in problem corridors.
Happy reading!
It's sad community groups in The Bronx, Queens or even Staten Island won't take the time to do these kinds of studies... :-/
I know it should be a joint effort by the 5 boroughs to come up with better mass transit options in the city.
Someone has done that—the Regional Plan Association.
The bringing back of 6-car G trains and 5 minute headways are promising as always, but it's a bit problematic when there's not enough rolling stock....
The study admits that this is a problem. Their proposal is to refurbish old cars, rather than retiring them as new ones come online.
Really? Where is the plan available?
Really? Where is the plan available?
http://www.rpa.org
One poster said: "I have the TA brochure (7/1969) detailing similar plans and a NY Times (6/20/1971) 31-page section going into even greater detail regarding the 'expansion'."
So it seems that the 1999 RPA Metrolink plan may have been recycled.
Given the city's fixed boundaries and relatively static structure, how many ideas haven't been proposed before?
The only two "new" ideas in transit I've come across are the big ferry expansion and bus rapid transit. But the former is a journey into the past, and the latter is just an attempt to give buses the speed that trolleys used to have, before motor vehicles clogged the streets.
--Mark
"Regional Plan Association ... Its plans in 1929 and 1968 were catalysts for the development of the region’s transportation infrastructure ..."
Were those RPA plans really so influential? Was the 1929 RPA plan the catalyst for the 1929 IND Second System plan? Was the 1968 RPA plan the catalyst for the 1968 MTA "Program for Action"? I don't know; I'm only asking.
No, it was the catalyst for the regional highway system.
Yes I've read the proposal and they should rebuild the older cars rather than retiting them and avoiding the R27/R30 mistake in the early 90's although ridership wasn't what it is today. If the MTA decides to hold back on retiring the R38,40 & 42 when the R160 comes, that would be a smart move although the roofs of the R38's and the slants could really use some work [too much duct tape ;-)].
Seriously. The best way is for each borough to have the power to do its own thing and compete against the other boroughs so each borough can try to be the best.
All of the best innovations occur through competition. All of the worst failures occur through cooperation.
Visiting NYC in July from the UK and fancy doing a bit of riding on the subway. Have now got bored with London Underground - been there done that!
Anyhow just interested to now if there is any Red subway cars still be used in NYC and if so where do they run? Also if anyone know's of any subway rides worth doing for a hour or so - I'd be interested to know.
Lastly I was thinking of getting the subway from I believe Howard Beach JFK into downtown Manhattan to my hotel near Penn Stn. Is it safe to use in early evening as I'm not sure what neighborhoods it passes through - I know there are parts of London I wouldn't recommend in the evening to someone unfamiliar with the area!
Thanks in Advance.
Petethefeet - London.
2) You can take the (A) from Howard Beach to Penn Sta in the evening. It is perfectly safe, relative to any other subway line. Don't be like these Orange Alert people who have to wear "depends" all the time. At Howard Beach, make sure to pick up a huge stack of subway maps and other brochures. They have hundreds of them free for the taking. I lov ethat place...but I haven't been there in a few months.
Before you come over if you plan to take photos of the subway I suggest you print and read the document at this address: http://www.tmk.com/nycrr/index.shtml
Pay particular attention to part 1050.9, item (c) which deals with the fact that photograhy is permitted but with some restrictions.
I bring this up because as you are new to this board you wouldn't be aware of some of the problems that have been encountered.
Because of what has been going on in the world with terrorism, some transit workers and officials and some police officers have what we would call here "Depends Syndrome". (Depends is the brand of adult diapers for those with certain "control" problems). Some of these particular individuals see a threat in anything, even someone taking photos for their own pleasure.
They will tell you that it is illegal (it isn't). You should carry a copy of part 1050.9(c) as a reference and you can offer it as proof that photography is legal but don't get into an arguement. Based on the situation, if you feel that bringing up the rule won't get you anywhere the best thing to do is leave the area and take pictures at another location. Use common sense when taking photos. Some people never get bothered others get stopped almost immediately.
I know I might have painyed a strange "picture" for you but this is what we have to put up with these days.
I am sure some of the others in here will be glad to add their comments.
Have a safe trip. Enjoy NYC.
I asked some of the same questions before my first visit. The NYC subway is safe; I've been all over and never felt in any danger. Just don't *leave* the subway stations in dodgy areas, get off to have a look at the station and then get back on another train. The only possible question mark anyone on this board has raised is over the New Lots branch, the very end tip of the no. 3 line in Brooklyn. (But I think I'll go there on my next visit anyway.)
My recommendation: take the J line from downtown (Essex Street is the easiest place to get on it) over the Williamsburg bridge, through Brooklyn and Queens on the elevated, and finishing up on the new(ish) underground section of the line in Jamaica. That way you take in the amazing elevated complex at Broadway Junction/ENY.
The 7 line which still (just) has redbirds is also a nice run, with a long elevated section and interesting views all the way out to Flushing.
Hane fun in NYC!
Gasp! How could you...
The only time I get bored is when waiting for a Bakerloo Line train - they seem always to take an age to show up.
Head over to the (7) and you'll see them running. From reading another post from another Redbird-reefing thread, the poster said there's about 200 Redbirds left on the line. So, get to the (7) and you'll see them there.
Does this S-curve at Pitkin have 9 lives? (It has already been marked for demolition, and it seems as though it will get to life 5 of 9. MTA = Mucked-up Transit Autocrity!)
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
So keep you finger, toes, eyes and what ever else you can crosses that this go on as planned. I am tried of going around that S turn 4 to 5 time a days.
Robert
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
R44 A Train #5265
R38 A Train #4031
R143 L Train #8255
R143 L Train #8231
R38 A Train #4074
It has nothing to do with the realignment
Thank You
And why are you blaming the MTA for an act of god?
And if we end up going to Code Red, they'll be ditching the donuts in favor of granola bars.
Let me turn down my radio so I can right you a ticket for playing a radio in the subway.
http://www.couponpages.com/local/1999-05/golde-001.asp
My question is: is that an actual retired car (looks like an R1-9) or a mock up?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm pretty sure that's just a mock-up.
Unfortunatley it is.
As I understand it, Ellen Hart Sturm the owner (and former Miss Subways) had purchased a subway car from the TA at one of the auctions/tag sales they had back in the 1980's but because of problems (asbestoes and the fact that someone at the TA screwed up) the car was unavailable and she got her money back. They had no choice but to do the mock up. All things considered it, looks pretty good.
You can see a picture of it here (scroll towards the bottom of the page when you get there).
http://ellensstardustdiner.citysearch.com/1.html
I ate there only twice. The food was pretty good, the prices in line with the area but it is very popular and gets crowded fast.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then go to Golden's and don't sit in the subway car. IMO, it's much better than Katz; plus, Golden's has a pickle bar.
That car was a "locker room" car for Sarnelli in Coney Island yard, back when cars used to be scrapped at C.I.Y.
In fact, it's only 2/3 of an "arnine". Don't know what happened to the first 1/3.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmm.....and how did he manage to drag it through the hallway without scratching the floor ? Hehe !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It's finally official. MTA has awarded the 80-car IRT "Supplemnetal" order to Kawasaki Railcar Corp. (KRC), through the competitive negotiation process.
All 80 are scheduled for delivery by October 31, 2003. They will be identical to the Option R-142As (7611-7730) and be numbered 7731-7810.
No specific assignment is cited, but its possible they'll go to the 4. If so, the revised full assignment will look about like this:
#1/9: 370 R-62A
#2: 385 R-142
#3: 315 R-62
#4: 260 R-142, 80 R-142A, 80 R-142S
#5: 385 R-142
#6: 440 R-142A
#7: 434 R-62A
S: 20 R-62A (singles @ Jerome)
Obviously, this eliminates any hope of reviving the "Reserve Fleet" unless something very unexpected happens. Chances are most will eventually be converted to Rider Cars.
With deliveries possibly starting in July or August, this also should expedite final replacement of remaining Redbirds on the 7.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I have some questions regarding the fleet assignment:
(1) The total number of R62As is 824. However, after adding the assignments for #1/#7/Shuttle, the total is 834. So 10 cars have to be removed from one of three barns.
(2) Currently #6 is assigned 450 R142As. Will 10 cars be moved from Westchester Yard to Jerome Yard in the future?
I feel bad to see Kawasaki R62s go, but am glad to see more Kawasaki R142As come to #4.
Regards,
Chaohwa
804+20=824.
370 #1/9
434 #7
20 S (Jerome)=824
2) I guess 7651-7660 would get moved from the 6 to the 4. That would leave the 6 440 cars to cover a max requirement of 380.
3) From what information I have, they will be identical to the Option R-142As, so I guess that they would technically be R-142As. When the complete technical specs are known, we can make a better evaluation.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Chaohwa
wayne
Robert
Redbirds Rule !!! Redbirds Rule !!!
Redbirds Rule !!! Redbirds Rule !!!
Jimmy
There's always "view source" to answer those questions, the following comes directly from "view source" of the previous message:
(marquee direction="right" scrollamount=60)(font color ="red")(b)(font size ="7")Redbirds Rule !!! Redbirds Rule !!!(/b)(/font)(/font color)(/marquee)
I replaced the <> with ( ) of course. The answer to your question appears in red.
Speaking of Redbirds, my roll sign is all set for this weekend's GO
Willets Pint
Shea Stadium, Queens
Times Square,
Manhattan
7 Flushing Local
I think I'll have a pint or two of Willets myself, but not at Shea's prices, though!
(Can't do it on the 7 either.)
That's right. That car is actually in a GOOD color scheme.
Redbirds, in my mind, will always define the #2, #5, and #7 routes, for as long as I live. Damn, I'm starting to sound like a young Sea Beach Fred. What will I do when the R42's leave the J? Suicide watch? Frantic research into the viability of time travel? Wax nostalgic on Subtalk daily?
Probably the latter.
12) "This is a Crown Heights-bound 5 Train" Oh yeah? Where does the strip map inside the car say that? For that matter, where does the SYSTEM map say that?
13) "We are being held momentarily by the train dispatcher" Momentarily? The last time I heard THAT one. "momentarily" became 16 minutes.
14) No RFWs
15) The outside destination signs don't always work. That bright red 5 you saw when the train pulled into Franklin Avenue ain't necessarily going to Flatbush, kiddo.
Did the MTA finally get the software to make changes easy
If you don't see the 5 going to Utica on the subway map, why should it be on the train's strip maps?
"13) "We are being held momentarily by the train dispatcher" Momentarily? The last time I heard THAT one. "momentarily" became 16 minutes."
Blame the C/R for that. They are the ones who activate those announcements. Not the train's fault.
"14) No RFWs"
Try looking out the front of a Montreal Metro train from inside the passenger area before you say that.
>> Blame the C/R for that. They are the ones who activate those announcements. Not the train's fault. <<
Do they have an announcement, "We will be held here a long time, so take off your shoes and relax!"
If they did - they would then ticket you for unauthorized removal of footwear....
Actually that does happen at times but its b/c its laid up or because Flatbush Av can't handle all the train so they go to Utica. Hey I think they're plain but they aren't too bad & we have to deal with the R142/R142A's, they are the future of the IRT.
Wouldn't it confuse less people to sign it up as a 4 train?
Actually that gives me an idea... renumbering the IRT to Letter-Number - give each trunk line a letter, then suffix a number to designate the terminal. For instance, the following:
A - 7th Lcl
B - 7th Exp
1 - 242, Dyckman, 137
2 - 241, Dyre, E180
3 - Lenox
4 - New Lots, Utica
5 - Flatbush, Atlantic
6 - South Ferry
eg - A1 7th Av Lcl to 242nd St, A6 7th Av Lcl to South Ferry
C - Lex Lcl
D - Lex Exp
1 - Pelham, Eastchester
2 - 241, Dyre, E180
3 - Woodlawn
4 - New Lots, Utica
5 - Flatbush, Atlantic
6 - South Ferry
7 - Brooklyn Bridge
E - Flushing Lcl
F - Flushing Exp
1 - Times Sq, QBP
2 - Flushing, Willets Pt, 111
Taking the E1...
"This is 74-Broadway, Transfer is available to the E, F, and G trains. This is a Manhattan bound E1 train..."
17. You are on a #5 train, but the interior strip map is the #2 line
18. The PATH connection at Park Place is listed on the #2 line strip map.
19. You hear that BING and think you it's fight night. However you wake up to reality and instead of a boxing match, it's a garbled announcement from the C/R.
20. The announcemnt on the #4 and lines say you can transfer to the F train at 59th st. After walking 3 long blocks north, you call yourself a dummy because you just used a single ride ticket on the start of your trip instead of a Metrocard.
What is the difference between a regular transfer and a MetroCard transfer? If you're in the system, aren't all transfers available?
The Metrocard is also inactive, but is activated with the proper information once a purchase is made. Same procedure as Station Agents using the computer.
* That goddamned dinky bell!
* The absolutely awful choice of interior colors.
* The UGHLY armbreaker bars by the doors
* The lozenge-shaped windows in the car end doors.
* A lot of them seem to have forgotten the great IRT tradition of wheel music (although 6611 sounded pretty good the other day).
That's my 2¢ worth
wayne
*I dislike the door chimes.(Replace with the R-62/R-62A style chimes).
*They look sterile though the outside of the cab end is O.K.
*The LEDs do not display the color code on all lines.
That's my 2¢ worth.
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Heh, that's an R142 name I haven't heard yet? Regardless of what all of you think, the MTA's intention is to build a great subway car, and I think I can speak for many people that they have done this. Besides, the R142/A already remember the classic rolling stock. Let's see...we have that red side stripe, the front light holders and of course, that picture of that R17. Very nice.
#3 West End Jeff
The only thing I wonder about the LED route signs is why didn't they install LEDS that could change between red and green? There are plenty of scrolling marquees that have this; they aren't expensive.
As for the R143s, blue LEDs are currently too expensive to make in great quantity, so it's too much to ask for full-color LEDs.
Yea.
It's time for you to do some reading and looking at pictures in the sections of this site about rolling stock, and no longer listen to those who tell you foolish things. (And the IRT did run Hi-Vs at one time also.)
Tom
Now you are assuming that Salaam does not know what he is talking about either. There is a class of NY Subway cars known as Lo-Vs. Salaam, like myself, remembers riding on them in regular service. To think he was referring to specifically how much voltage is used at the controller is ludicrous. Just as when someone refers to "Q" cars, it does not mean any rail car that is now operating or has ever operated in Queens.
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The announcements are the worst thing about the R-142. The best way would be to have the talent record every letter and single digit number in the alphabet and the individual route designators would be called up by the computer.
When are the signs flawed?
5. I thought you were talking about the R-142, not the Redbirds :-). Seriously, until I saw #6 I thought that you were talking about those monstrosities on wheels.
The redbirds are absolutely THE blandest most boring car equipment ever foisted upon the New York subway. The only thing that has given them character is age, and I don't care for that. The same thing applies to all of the Reginald Welsh designed cars going back to the R-16 and including the R-38 (and to some but not all extent the R-32), there is NO difference between any of them except for the matter of the storm door window. While those horrible things were being built for New York, other cities were going with Stainless Steel products from good companies like Budd. The old M-3 in Philadelphia built by Budd was contemporary to the R-33 and looked far more advanced than the R-32 built by Budd. Budd built the 2200 for Chicago. Did you ever see those things? I'm sure some people look at them and think of them as brand new equipment.
If Budd hadn't low-bid on the R-32 contract, the MTA would have ordered another carbon steel vehicle from St. Louis Crap Company and they would have been ordering that until the 1970s.
6. That's a matter of personal preference. I like the seats better because they support the back better when sitting straight up. The seats on the Redbirds weren't so bad, but I always slouched in them. I like the single fold down seats near the cabs, but NOT when someone lets go of one and it slams up.
7. What I don't get is how people use this as a disadvantage of the R-142s vs. the Redbirds. The Redbirds sign is JUST AS SMALL! If you were comparing the R-142 to the R-62, I'd give you that.
8. Which is why I like them.
Also, Christianity displaced human sacrifice in Mesoamerica. Christianity is better.
9. Your opinion, you're entitled to it.
10. Oh yes, and the subway was built for people taking pictures of it.
The designers obviously didn't realize that New Yorkers, like deer, are easily startled by bright light. I'm sure the optometrists guild will shortly sue the city to have that changed, on grounds that the decrease in eye damage caused by reading on the subway has caused undue harm to 100s of little children (of optometrists), no longer able to afford to buy an ivy league education.
The problems with the announcements aren't really any more annoying the lady on the F who tells you how to get to every single end point in the system as you pull into Jay Street.
Or is it the beginning of "Who wants to live forever?" by Queen...
I thought I heard music as the train departed on the 6 line yesterday! I can't believe they actually programmed a train to play music-- it's so, well, un-utilitarian. You'd expect that in a really small town on a trolley line or maybe in an old Eurpoean city, but rugged, tough New York?
That's a standard American accent. I'd rather they have that instead of people dropping Rs where they belong and pronouncing them where they don't.
Well, at least they didn't hire somebody with a damn BOSTON accent.
too many bars on seats and ceiling, makes the car look smaller.
So what? It doesn't matter how it looks, the bars make it possible for people to stand.
After a long PA conversation amongst the crew, it was discovered that someone forgot to program for rush-hour service. But shouldn't your average crew KNOW that the 5 normally continues to Brooklyn in rush hour, and not blindly follow the wrong canned announcements and LED displays?!! In any event, they allowed everyone back on the train, and we entered the Joralemon tube as the canned announcement cheerily said "This is a Manhattan-bound 5 train. The next stop is Newkirk Avenue."
Those awkward two-handled, two-paneled doors between the cars are also annoying. At least they came to their senses and put normal, single-piece doors on the 143s.
As is the loud, raspy grunting sound heard when the brakes are applied.
The three-toned acceleration sound for the 142s is somewhat more bearable than the outright wailing on the 142As and 143s. Kinda reminds me of the 2001 OVERTURE.
It makes no sense to me, but apparently this is a result of ADA. The doors between cars must be wide enough to permit wheelchair passage. That's fine on the wide R-143's, but the R-142's are too narrow for a single sliding door (which, if centered, must take up no more than one-third the width of the car) -- hence the double doors.
I can't imagine why a wheelchair passenger would pass between cars. Certainly, it seems crazy to modify the design to allow for a once-in-a-blue-moon possibility at the expense of the safety of the rest of us, who now need* three hands to open the doors and hold the grab bar on the outside of the car.
(*Yes, I realize that the doors can theoretically be opened single-handedly, but they're very heavy, and I don't particularly enjoy pulling that hard on a door while I'm standing between cars. Also, there's no indication of which handle operates the latch -- tug on the other one all day and the door will stay closed.)
Without releasing the grab bar, I now need two more hands to open the storm doors to the next car (again, I know it's physically possible with one hand, but it's not a great idea). That makes three hands. Should I ask a fellow passenger if he can lend me a hand? I'm afraid I only have two of my own.
Yeah, I would like the R143's a lot more if they had rollsigns like the test train R110B's had. I'm sorry they went with the dumb red light. Sometimes the photo works and sometimes it doesn't.
It worked (and looks quite cool) in this photo:
Given the proposed increase in service on the Lex, the eight new 10-car trains would figure to cover that. The 58 Redbirds were put into reserve before that plan came into effect, AFAIK, so adding eight additional trains of R-142As would seemilingly return the fleet arrangement in terms of in-service/storage cars to what it was in 2002 before the increases were announced.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But of course, I'd be happy with any solution. I'm just curious about what other people think.
Mark
Either get SEPTA to buy articulated LRV's NOW, not 10 years from now, or buy a new fleet of single LRV's that don't have long shank couplers that cause coupled cars to have 10 feet between them and have idiots try to cross between coupled cars. (It's been done!!!).
SEPTA resorted to snow fencing taped to the car ends to keep the idiots away. The damned long shank couplers are necessary on the city LRV's due to restrictive curves in the Juniper loop. Why the fools in SEPTA's engineering department went for a car with square ends is beyond anyone's knowledge.
SEPTA's engininering department screwed up on that and the N5's.
I wouldn't let them design an outhouse.
Mark
As to the K cars, nice riders (do beat up the rail, typical of LRV's increased weight), but the SQUARE ends? Don't the yo-yo's in SEPTA's engineering department know their own railroad?
Those restritive curves have been there since 1906. PRT ran coupled sets of 4000's in the subway as a test in 1919 - they passed.
Anyway, SEPTA wound up with a nice operating car that has the same ends as the US standard LRV in the 70's. Square. If you couple two cars together and run the train through the subway, the ends will hit on the curves outbound from Juniper. Thus the long shank couplers.
Note: the K cars on Red Arrow have standard shank couplers. Guess the curves on the lines arn't as sharp.
Today I got stuck on 9030 (which has a pretty severe flatspot, BTW) running as a 10 headed into the city at 19th St station. 9013 was in front of us, and it took forever to get through what I'd estimate to be a 4 or 5 car bunching. In the end my car wound up completely bypassing 19th and going straight on to 15th past a crowded platform at 19th.
Perhaps SEPTA should try to go for a Proof of Payment system on the Trolleys. It could consist of a small machine on the platform which would accept a token or a two dollars, after the proper fare was inserted it'd pop out a ticket similar to the NCS tickets, with a 2 hour or so timestamp. This would allow the running of two unit trains by a single operator without a person in the rear to collect fares, as well as allow multi door boarding (since Philadelphians, no matter the mode, Bus LRV or Trolley, have not mastered the 'Exit Via Center door' mentality, it's the front door or no door), as well as paving the way for more doors and such on the next generation of Subway-Surface trolleys. All the subway surface stations from 40th to 33rd would be readily adaptable to this, as would 19th and 22nd, but theres not much that could be done about 13th St and 30th St stations, however 15th could be placed outside the fare control with little difficulty. At somewhere like 13th or 30th, SEPTA could just place machines that would dispense the same tickets without a fare, just punch a button and get a ticket, perhaps a better solution, readily adaptable to 15th as well would be to have the trolley and subway portions of the line separated with small fare gates, passing through the faregate would pop one trolley ticket out. Going the otherway would be just like patco's turnstiles, stick the card in, it reads the time data, and either lets you through or not, thus preserving the free-transfer between lines.
I'm not sure if SEPTA has enough K-cars to run some of their rush hour trains in this configuration, and Dan Lawrance mentioned the problems with the massive coupling distance. It might be a good idea to make some PCCs into powered trailers, with a Scharfenberg coupler on the front of the PCC and a jumper from the pole on the lead K-car. That or else something like the Tatra thing that was proposed.
It'd be nice for SEPTA to get some of those trains here, have they worked out well for the Portland Streetcar and Tacoma Trolley? Either those or Duwag GT70 Low Floors, like Karlsruhe runs on the streetcar (non regio) trains.
SEPTA really didn't want 15 back as a rail line (their intent was to continue the PTC/NCL policy of no streetcars except the Subway-Surface.) but the city wanted the cars back. The K cars can't be used due to ADA requirements and rebuilding (when the cars come back, they will be LRV's in the shell of a PCC. No PCC technology will exist in the cars.) was the cheapest way to go.
The cost of re-manufacturing 15 cars is less than 15 articulated LRV's. SEPTA is actually hoping the Girard Avenue project will fail. They are afraid that if it suceeds, the City will push them to bring back 56 and 23 to Erie-Broad. This they do not want. Their plan for surface transit outside of the Subeay-Surface is diesel.
Because of all this we can't depend upon SEPTA or PA for funding something like new LRVs for the Sub-Surface lines to ease overcrowding, we have to look elsewhere, such as POP. I'm just thinking that POP would reduce station dwell times enough, since you don't need every idiot customer without a token to fumble for two dollars, that gets taken care of on the platform. The driver no longer needs to babysit the riders so much, that's the job of the roving fare enforcers.
Other things could also increase capacity on the trolleys, stuff like allowing more than one trolley to platform at the Sub-Surface stations other than 13th st, this isn't the bad old days of defered maitenance on the PCCs, we now have working track brakes. I'm still liking the idea of powered PCC trailers for the K-cars, just a few of the cars sitting in Germantown Depot could be modified with AC and such, plus a bus feed from the leader's trolley pole, and the removal of the drivers seat. If we can't get more new trolleys, we might as well make due with what we have.
Is the court of appeals bound by the May 28th date also?
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Robert - has your mind gone BIE?
:)
Peace,
ANDEE
The Strappies could not find a needle in a box of needles. They pick up on the work of others then try to make it look like they were the ones who discovered it. They succeed because they tell people what they want to hear. (Do I hear socialists or worse - political aspirants?).
The Court of Appeals is not bound by anything. It can take its own sweet time to rule, and when it does rule it could impose any schedule it wants.
It will be interesting to see what strategy the MTA lawyers adopt. Clearly they will be arguing that Judge York's decision was wrong on the law. But they could also argue that, even if Judge York was right on the law, he was wrong on the remedy.
They can argue both.
They can say: we think he's wrong on the law, so please overturn.
And even if you think he's right on the law, let's consider what will happen. We've now issued the information that the judge says we should have issued before the hearings. The Controller who did the audit agrees that any windfall is temporary and the fare hike was justified. So we'll hold hearings, and raise the fares right back again. What public good comes from rolling back the fares for 2 months?
In fact the straphanger campaign if dig deap into wha they do, they do very little in the public good for the riding public
Guilty defendants want to delay things. People who have nothing to fear usually just want to get it over with. That should tell you something right away
The fare hike was approved in March and yet the straphangers waited until the last week of the old fare to file suit.
Answers would be greatly.....yada, yada, yada.
Peace,
ANDEE
Over Memorial Day, the Chicago Transit Authority will be realigning the Harrison Curve to use the new, less curvy section of track.
The Harrison Hotel is now a Travelodge, given new life benefitting from the revival of South Loop.
Jim K.
Chicago
It's nice too see the CTA moves so quickly, only like 25-30 years and a problem is fixed after a deadly accident!!
My question is, why will it take until Fall 2003 for the whole project to be complete?? The new section of track, if on schedule, will be in service on tuesday, following Memorial Day. It will take them from May 27 until atleast September 23 to demolish and remove that small section of, soon to be, unused track??
Anybody know why they say this minor work will take so long?? If an entire section of the Cermak/Douglas branch of the Blue line can be completely removed and a new one in place for renevue service in a period of 45 hours, why is this taking months?? Especially because of the fact that it will be completely out of service.
I'm just curious, it will be fun and I will definetly have enough time to get a picture with both sections, new and old, of the curve in place, before the old is completely gone.
It is sad too see such an old, classic elevated S curve be removed. But I guess since it is very dangerous and travel times on the Green/Orange lines are being reduced, it is beneficial.
Do any similar types of S curves, elevated or not, still exist in revenue service in NYC or anywhere else in the U.S.?? Any feed back would be great.
BJ
PS: I have noticed a lot of angry posts on this board in the last few months. You guys should lighten up a little and enjoy the fact that subtalk even exists. We all love transit and have our own views and opinions about it and everything else to do with it.
The Manhattan-bound Canarise line at Snediker & Atlantic Aves, also scheduled to be realigned out of existence this weekend, immediately comes to mind.
--Mark
From a lighter perspective, one of the most photographed S-curves is long gone, at Coenties Slip, near the southern tip of Manhattan, long and graceful, on the former 3rd Avenue el.
I guess you wouldn't count the two sharp curves on the J Line, which make an elongated S-curve from Fulton Street to Crescent Street to Jamaica Avenue. Elimination of those curves would shave a few minutes from the schedules on that line.
David Harrison
Can I assume this curve wasn't eliminated earlier because there were buildings in the way?
David Harrison
Also, the CTA needs to eliminate this color-coding crap. There is a Ravenswood train; but there is no "Brown Line." There is a Howard train; there is no "Red Line." There is a Skokie Swift; there is no "Yellow Line." For some reason the CTA itself seems painfully unaware of this truism.
Sorry for ignorance/redundancy.
(Color-coding still needs to go.)
I agree with you about the CTA's color coding of rapid transit lines. I brought up the subject some time ago and was roundly condemned on the basis that colors, rather than meaningful names, were more user-friendly, especially for foreign tourists. I still maintain that it's moronic. At least they haven't tried to make it retroactive. It will always be Garfield Park, Kenwood, Normal Park, Westchester, Stock Yards, and Humboldt Park in my book.
Actually, I suspect foreign tourists in London find the Bakerloo and the Piccadilly to be quite entertaining names! The Brown and Dark Blue Lines would be much less fun....
It's a lot easier for me when I'm in NYC to refer to the train as the 7 express or local thats Purple color coded on the map. Flushing bound express or local is more confusing.
Could you just imagine if the CTA and especially NYC subway maps were black and white with just route names and no colors, letters, numbers????
All my friends who aren't rail-fans find it hard enough to identify the different L lines and have no clue when they're with me in NYC, they just follow me and trust my subway directions. Without color coding I would also get lost in NYC.
Color coding isn't so much about the names as it is to make makes easier to read and to more easily tell where trains go when lines cross or share tracks for a bit. And you don't have to use the colors, any frequent rider of the L will know what you're talking about if you use the line name.
Colors are pretty.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunitly in this case, you see how unreliable informatns can be.
The police may have brooken down the correct door, at least according to the informant.
Unfortunitly the police play cat and mouse games with infromants and drug dealers who often store drugs in peoples apartemens that don't neccissarily fit the decription of one would think a drug dealer looks like
I never hear of the police using flash granades before,
Is this a new thing
What scares me, is an informant dislikes me, so he tells the cops my house is a drug den, with predictable results. Possibly Ms. Spruill had complained about the informant, who also lived in her building?
I gotta play CounterStrike
It is not to be confused with a concussion grenade that is designed to kill via consussion.
Of course it can be used in conjunction with deadly force. In 1976, the Israelis who participated in the Entebbe raid used flash bangs to disorient the guards holding the hostages long enough to eliminate them with aimed fire before they could return fire or kill the hostages.
In 1980 after the takeover of the Iranian embassy in London by Kurds, and a six day siege, the SAS used flash bangs when entering the embassy (televised live) then killed five of six terrorists (including two who had surrendered to their hostages) within the embassy. The only terrorist who survived did so by leaving the embassy with the hostages. When he was identified by the hostages as one of the terrorists, the SAS tried to drag him back inside the embassy, but were stopped when it was pointed out that the TV cameras had seen the live terrorist already in custody.
Tom
Also, the premise that you're going to get 3/4ths of $50 billion from city/state/fed funds is flawed, i.e., it ain't gonna happen.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It doesn't work that way. Building a new line takes years, and in the meantime the money must come from somewhere.
True, but then the people using the subway for 20 years are the ones paying for building it, not those who see nothing but the hassle of the construction during four or five years prior to the time it opens.
Tom
True, but then the people using the subway for 20 years are the ones paying for building it, not those who see nothing but the hassle of the construction during four or five years prior to the time it opens.
That might be a reasonable argument for funding the construction through bond issuance, but I was responding to people who suggested that the bondholders would "pay" for improvements. This is not the case: bondholders just provide temporary use of their capital, which must be returned with interest.
Seriously, if you try to save up money first and then pay for a capital improvement, you end up with extra cash, which has to be invested somewhere. Put it in the bank? So they can put it in some well-rated enterprise, like the new Hong Kong subway system? Why not start gathering up some of the extra money, plus get a commitment from the state, plus help from the feds, and use it all to get your granny and mine to put their extra $1000 in MTA bonds instead of their mattresses?
This is certainly a very defensible position.
As other people have pointed out, if there are CAPITAL improvements, they should be paid by BONDHOLDERS, who can then hold these guys' feet to the fire with real live LAWYERS and get the improvements built.
This is utterly illogical. Bondholders don't "pay" for anything. They simply provide temporary capital, which later then be returned—with interest. Whether the money was used for the intended purpose does not concern them, as long as they are repaid. And if a municipal or quasi-governmental agency defaults, typically there is some kind of bailout. Bondholders are not the people who you want protecting your interests.
>> This is utterly illogical. Bondholders don't "pay" for anything. They simply provide temporary capital, which later then be returned—with interest. Whether the money was used for the intended purpose does not concern them, as long as they are repaid. And if a municipal or quasi-governmental agency defaults, typically there is some kind of bailout. Bondholders are not the people who you want protecting your interests. <<
It might make some sense if the bonds are backed by the fares generated by the new construction. In that case, the bondholders would want to insure that the new construction were actually constructed. I'm still not sure that's practical, even though turnpikes were similarly constructed. And the bondholders could be said to be foolish if they bought the bonds without a dedicated revenue stream to back them.
For example, enter Brooklyn around Atlantic Ave, turn South along Columbia, East along Union St. to GAP, then South along Flatbush to King's Plaza/Ave U.
Where would yours go?
It's a mistake IMHO. The Water St. option will serve more people, give direct access to the Seaport, and still could be connected to the Montague St tunnel south of the proposed "terminal" at South Ferry.
I'm sure Marge will like my plan :-)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=498646
However, your idea does match the 1929 original plan. Chrystie St, as it is today is the only remnant of the original SAS subway to be built. The trains using the north side of the bridge would have continued north along 2nd Ave, not connecting with the 6th Ave line at Houston St. as it does today. That routing was a compromise plan enacted after the 2nd system was dumped.
I still don't understand, who was that moron who decided, that 6th Ave exp tracks were necessary to be built, instead of 2nd Ave. The cost probably would have been the same. As we can see there's very little need for both Braoadway and 6th Ave exp tracks.
Arti
I've no argument that the 2nd Avenue line should've been built, but you're wrong about the cost. Expanding a line when the ROW and the stations are already there is a very different proposition to building a brand new line.
It wasn't exactly expanding the line, but building around H&M and local tracks, much more difficult and costly than building from the scratch.
Arti
I agree with the premise that the first IND plan should have centered around an 8th Ave/2nd Ave line, not the 8th/6th Ave line configuration eventually adopted.
Wow, how the mighty have fallen. First the Nassau never gets connected to the Brooklyn Bridge as planned, then it looses the Manhattan Bridge, and now the Montague tunnel! I guess we're trying to make Chambers Street a complete ghost town.
Not so easy. Read the SDEIS. The Nassau St stations can't accommodate 600-foot trains. The construction would be difficult and disruptive: to transit riders, residents, local businesses, and the environment. And a route that goes that far without reaching south of City Hall would be politically unacceptable.
Building the line as now contemplated, and then hooking up to the Montague tunnel (as another poster suggested) might be more feasible.
How come they were able to extend platforms at all of the IRT Contract 1 stations, many of the Broadway line stations, and many others without a problem, but it would be such a problem to extend Bowery, Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad? It's only 5 stations. Wouldn't extending them be cheaper than a whole new line? The capacity exists, so that's not a problem. I would assume that building a new line would be just as disruptive, or more disruptive than extending a few platforms. Local businesses and residents would be disrupted if they were building the Water St alignment also.
Actually, Canal Street and Bowery were actually extended once before, although a very long time ago (I think when the line was fairly new). The stations were extended north, and it is very easy to see where the platforms used to end, and where it used to be "in the tunnel", especially on the Queens bound platform at Canal. The columns are different, and the extensions have just pure white tile, not the mosaic band that the rest of the station has.
You can see it very clearly in this photo:
How come they were able to extend platforms at all of the IRT Contract 1 stations, many of the Broadway line stations, and many others without a problem, but it would be such a problem to extend Bowery, Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad? It's only 5 stations.
Construction these days is much more sensitive to community needs. Robert Moses was able to obliterate entire neighborhoods without a public hearing. It doesn't work that way any more, thanks to him. I'm not saying the NIMBYs should prevail every time (and they don't), but nowadays there's much more recognition of the community impact. You should read the SDEIS—the disruption that would attend the Nassau St option is much more than you probably realize. This is discussed for several pages. Extending the platforms is only part of the problem.
By the way, the alignment that was under consideration would have joined the Nassau St line between Bowery and Canal, so it was only 4 stations!!
Wouldn't extending them be cheaper than a whole new line?
Indeed it would, but it would also not be as beneficial.
The capacity exists, so that's not a problem.
The capacity doesn't exist, which is part of the problem. The Nassau St line cannot accommodate J/M/Z plus SAS, because of the merge south of Chambers St. Under the alignment that was considered, the J/Z would have had to terminate at Chambers, and the M at Broad St. So, to accommodate the SAS, existing J/M/Z riders would have been shafted. And if Queens Blvd service were ever added to the SAS, J/M/Z service would have to be curtailed even further.
I know I will bite my tongue for this, as I never like to see the Eastern Division shafted, but how about (GULP) having the J/Z terminate at Chambers Street. The Nassau Line is 4 tracks to that point, so there is no problem between Canal and Chambers. This would then be the perfect time to combine the M with the V. The M would be eliminated (GULP), the V since it's already orange would run between Continental Ave and Metropolitan Ave weekdays, with a V shuttle between Metro and Myrtle.
In summary there are pros and cons, but they seem to even out. The J/Z riders would loose the Fulton transfer, but they would gain cross/same platform transfers with the new 2nd Ave subway at Canal and Chambers, the 6th Ave line with the V (M-V combo) at Myrtle, Marcy, and Essex, and would still have same/cross platform service to south brooklyn, but instead of the M it would be the 2nd ave line. Former northern M riders would gain direct midtown service (easing the exodus at Myrtle-Wyckoff and Essex), loose Nassau service, but would still have a same platform transfer to it at Essex. it's a trade off between direct midtown service and Nassau service for the northern M riders.
Another issue is that I think the MTA is eyeing the V for express service on the Culver Line, which might benefit more riders than a Myrtle/6th Avenue service. Also, the current V fleet can't operate on the Eastern Division, although that problem could be solved by swapping cars with other lines.
Platform extensions at Fulton and Broad would be simple -- both stations would only need tyo carve an additional 120 feet of platform out of the side walls. Then, assuming that all four tracks north of Chambers would be in use, extending the platforms on the soon-to-be abandoned Willie B-bound platforms would be a little more difficult, since those would require realignment of the local track and carving away 120-feet or so of the outer wall, a project the MTA hasn't had any exeperience with ... since 2002, when they finished widening the platform at 72nd St. on the IRT and carving away part of the outer wall of the platform there. That work had to be done while the No. 1 train was still in service -- in this case the work could be done far less obtrusively, since those platforms won't be in revenue service.
Once that was done, they could work on the Broad St.-bound platforms and Chambers, which if nothing else could use the platform extension just to force the MTA to do some sort of renovation down there. After that, it would be a matter of track alignment -- J/Z or M trains terminating at Chambers would be routed to the center tracks east of Bowery, while a bell mouth merge would have to be built for the outer tracks, so the J/Z or M trains going to Broad St. could share trackage with the Second Ave. line.
If only one line runs south of 63rd St., I agree sending it down Water Street would serve more people. But if the oft-mentioned 63rd St. connection to the Second Ave. line ever became a real option, sending one line down Water and the other along Nassau would be the most effective way to serve the greatest number of riders (and given the fact that the line above 63rd would have to share trackage with the Q, there would certainly be room south of there for a second route, and south of Chambers for that route and either the J/Z or M trains to terminate at Broad while the Second Ave. line goes on to Brooklyn.
No one has ever said that building the Water St alignment was less expensive—indeed, lower cost was one of the cited advantages of the Nassau St alignment. However, the cost differential isn't as much as you'd imagine, because the two alignments are identical from 125th to Houston, and the complexity of the Nassau St alignment is more than most people realize.
Platform extensions at Fulton and Broad would be simple -- both stations would only need tyo carve an additional 120 feet of platform out of the side walls.
It isn't that simple. Read the SDEIS. Especially this section:
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sdeis/AppendixB.pdf
If only one line runs south of 63rd St., I agree sending it down Water Street would serve more people. But if the oft-mentioned 63rd St. connection to the Second Ave. line ever became a real option, sending one line down Water and the other along Nassau would be the most effective way to serve the greatest number of riders.
But that amounts to building it both ways, which is clearly the most expensive option of all.
I'm not quite sure where the MTA gets their "1,700 additional riders" on the Lex via the Nassau option over the Water Street one, since for all those except at the far south end of Water, the Second Ave. line via Nassau at Broad and Fulton would still be closer access than the 4/5 over at Wall and Fulton on Broadway, and the new transit hub at Fulton figures to make the odd alignment of the Nassau platforms there easier to navigate (the difference in distance at Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge is so small as to render the question irrelevant).
When this talk first came up a while back, my feeling was (and still is) that Water Street would be a better route because it is underserved by the subway right now. The Nassau St. option only looked better after the WTC attack, because it would tie in the Second Ave. line better to the downtown reconstruction project(and possibly make the Nassau St. work eligible for FEMA funding), though Upper East Side will still have the Q via 63rd St. to get access to the west side of lower Manhattan.
If the money's there, build Water Street. But given the financial constraints the Second Ave. project has, and always will face, at least draw up a Nassau option, because then the MTA could build the line in segments -- 125th to 63rd, and then 63rd to Delancey -- and if they run out of cash then, the trains could still get to the financial district.
There is value to:
-having the Grand Street transfer;
-removing the additional 1700 Lex riders;
-providing access to Chatham Square, South Street Seaport, and Water Street;
-having the capacity to add 63rd Street/Lower 2nd Avenue service without cutting back Eastern Division service to Lower Manhattan even further;
-having the additional ADA-compliant stations in below Houston Street.
It is a tradeoff. They've gone through a decision-making process and eliminated the Nassau Alternative. If it saved more money, it probably would have survived the SDEIS and might even be preferable. Unless someone sees a major flaw in the methodology of the study, I don't think there is much that can be done to save it.
Run the tunnel just about paralell, but to the west of the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel under the East River, with a stop at Governor's Island, and from there into Red Hook and under the Gowanus (Expressway and Canal) to Fourth Ave., were it would connect up with the Fourth Ave. subway between Prospect Ave. and 25th St. That way, if a cross platform station is built at Grand, you could then build a crossover swtich south of the station, which would allow the West End express (D train after 2004) to bypass the Manny B and DeKalb and would then run downtown via Water and from there back over to Fourth Ave. (even if Grand isn't cross-platform, new ramps could be build down from the current platform to link up with the Second Ave. tracks before Chatham Square. You would just lose the option to run Second Ave. trains on a GO over the Manny B under that option).
Having the Second Ave. trains share trackage with the West End line would not only take some of the stress off the bridge, it would both give the MTA a south Brooklyn option for the Sixth Ave. trains if the Manny B ever dies completely, would give Sixth Ave. midtown riders one-seat access to the finanical district for the first time in about 50 years, and would make any plans the city has for Governor's Island more useful, since it would no longer be served only by ferryboat. Also, running the Second Ave. trains to Bay Parkway and having it share trackage from there all the way to Grand St. with the D train would balance out the loads on both lines, since each would have both downtown and midtown Manhattan access. The downside would be a loss of some local service between Boro Hall and Prospect Ave., and the loss of a direct transfer to the West End line for IRT riders at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St. (N riders could still change at 36th St., while Q riders would just have to remember to take the N or R trains instead of switching at DeKalb).
Of course, if there is no new tunnel and you just tie the Second Ave. line into Montague, then you could just replace the M with the new route to Bay Parkway, though because of its longer and slower route through downtown Brooklyn, would probably be less effective in taking West End riders off the D.
Assuming Second Ave. service would have a couple of more TPH than the M does now, there would be only a marginal increase in service along Fourth Ave. -- really only at two stations on the avenue itself, 25th and 36th streets -- while service would decline slightly on the stations north of 25th St. served by the M and D trains (the Nassau Loop would also lose its direct Brooklyn connection, but people headed south of 25th St. on the West End line could walk over to Fulton or Hanover Square on Water Street to take the T, or those wanting to go to downtown Brooklyn could take the 2/3 at Fulton or Wall or the 4/5 at BG, Fulton, Wall or BB).
I say rather that the added capacity the new trunk line would provide creates the best opportunity yet to expand service in Queens. Whatdya say, folks? A new QB bypass route connecting to the Hillside express tracks and continuing to the Nassau County line would just about hit the spot!
(Well a guy can dream, can't he?)
:-) Andrew
What line is the Hillside express?
:-) Andrew
I would love to see subway service on the lower Montauk branch, but remember that it is not all that "underused". It may be underused for passenger service, but it is very active for freight service, in fact most of the freight on all of Long Island use those tracks. That was fine if the LIRR wanted to increase local and through traffic on the line as the the LIRR can share tracks with the the freight lines, however due to FRA regulations, the subway can not. In order to convert the line to subway use, they would need to add at the very least a third track to the line, so there would be two for the subway, and at least one for the freight. A fourth passing siding track may also be needed somewhere along the line then also.
I'd love to see subway service on the line, but it should not be at the expense of freight traffic. At the very least, it's a shame the LIRR didn't operate a more convenient passenger service on the line than it once did. At least the LIRR passenger trains could run with the freight trains on the same tracks.
The FRA regulations are a red herring. If it made sense, the regs could be changed, or there could be an exemption in this instance. The real problem is that it doesn't make sense, because subway service would get in the way of freight service.
There's actually a pretty compelling argument for making mass transit investments in Brooklyn. The infrastructure has had few additions since the first half of the twentieth century. In the intervening period, there have been significant population shifts.
And the ideas mentionned above providing the cross-platform transfers to the Nassau St. and/or Chrystie St. stations would provide about all the connectivity Bklyn would need.
Neither of these is happening.
I say rather that the added capacity the new trunk line would provide creates the best opportunity yet to expand service in Queens. Whatdya say, folks? A new QB bypass route connecting to the Hillside express tracks and continuing to the Nassau County line would just about hit the spot! (Well a guy can dream, can't he?)
A pretty reasonable idea, actually. We might see it in 2025, or so.
JLee wrote:
But if any future new tunnel was built for Second Ave. south of Hannover Square, a ramp arrangement, similar to what the F train uses between Bergen and Jay Streets, could be set up to allow Sixth Ave. trains access to Water Street.
But if that ramp isn't part of the initial build-out, the chance of it happening in the foreseeable future is nil.
If the bridge repairs fail to work, then a couple of 1000-foot ramps from the current Sixth Ave. line at Grand down to the Second Ave. route would make economic sense, since it would free up 50 percent of the Sixth Ave. service to continue regular operation (unlike the current situation with the bridge partially out of service). And by the time any of this could possibly come to pass, we'll know for sure if all the work the DOT has done on the Manny B solved the problem.
LOL. Those 1000-foot ramps would probably cost about $2bn, plus several years of cut-and-cover construction, property demolition on the Lower East Side, and very significant service disruptions. It would be infeasible for the same reasons the SAS Shallow Chrystie option was ultimately rejected.
I've nothing against people designing their own fantasy service, but as a practical solution to a practical problem this one doesn't come close to passing the laugh test.
1. Get my Sea Beach back on the Manny B and make it an express.
2. Give the Blighton Bitch an insignia that will be permanent and stop these makeovers that allow this line to act like a cross-dresser.
3. Get the R back to Astoria and let is at least see the light of day.
4. Let the West End stay at the W and keep the damn B and D in the Bronx and Manhattan where it belongs.
5. Bring me east and make me the commissioner of the MTA to clean up the mess.
N Bwy
#1: will happen next year.
#2: hopefully will happen
#3: I think that it was smart that the switch happened because it has given R trains access to a yard (Jamaica Yard) plus it keeps the N train (your train) off of IND trackage.
#4: When both sides of the bridge open, where will you send the B and D trains?
#5: You would be MUCH better than Kalikow.
N Broadway
ASTORIA FOREVER!
Right.
Arti
You got to be kidding... I don't what the R line going to Astoria...
N Broadway
Astoria
1. Get my Sea Beach back on the Manny B and make it an express.
That's happening next year, I hear your going to make the trip to try and ride the N over the bridge ASAP.
2. Give the Blighton Bitch an insignia that will be permanent and stop these makeovers that allow this line to act like a cross-dresser.
Aww come on Fred, don't be jealous of the Brighton after all it IS your second favorite line.
3. Get the R back to Astoria and let is at least see the light of day.
Not gonna happen, it was switched for good reasons in 1987, just like when the 2/3 switched Brooklyn terminals in 1983.
4. Let the West End stay at the W and keep the damn B and D in the Bronx and Manhattan where it belongs.
Well the B and D has to come back to Brooklyn and those lines have to utilize the north side tracks of the Manny-B.
5. Bring me east and make me the commissioner of the MTA to clean up the mess.
Yeah right so you could be biased towards your Sea Beach and try to screw over the Brighton in particular, that's your ultimate dream ;-).
What we're talking about would be a quarter-century in the future, under best estimates, so pretty much any "Where would you like the Second Ave. line to go in Brooklyn?" hypothesis falls into the fantasy category. The link I proposed just takes a reality -- the Manhattan Bridge isn't made for trains -- and adds it to the mix (and the ramps certainly wouldn't require the bizzare twists the TA came up with for the 11th Street cut between Queens Plaza and the 60th Street tunnel, if you want to get into engineering questions).
The most compelling Brooklyn transit needs are the construction of the Utica Ave branch of the IRT (proposed in 1968) and the extension of the Nostrand Ave IRT down to the shoreline.
The IRT does not have the capacity to pull that off. Any Utica subway must connect to a new line.
This is not existing capacity. New passengers would now ride the 4 who do not currently ride it. The 4 is already full in Brooklyn.
How many people ride the B46 from Kings Plaza to get on the subway at Eastern Parkway?
Although you do have a point about insufficient capacity, as a subway to Kings Plaza via Utica/Flatbush would also draw the B41 and B47 crowds, as well as the B46. The subway would not only get them to Downtown Brooklyn quicker, but also longer commutes to Manhattan would be made more feasible, attracting even more commuters. Even if the 5 to Flatbush were eliminated to avoid congestion at Rogers, the capacity just isn't there.
Besides, the Utica Ave line would not be served by the #4, but the #3. The West side IRT has extra capacity due to the limits of the Flatbush Ave. terminal. You could easily run 15 #3 TPH down Utica Ave, an increase over current service levels (David would welcome that in Manhattan).
Given today's routings, Rogers junction is the bottleneck on the West Side IRT express -- not Flatbush, not New Lots, not the flat junction north of 135th. I've suggested a very simple and inexpensive way to increase IRT capacity both in Brooklyn and on the West Side (without affecting East Side capacity), but you don't like it. Any repair strategy must either eliminate or circumvent the Rogers bottleneck.
However, a Rogers junction rebuild should be included with any IRT Utica Ave extension, if only to make train service run more smoothly thru the area. I'd even make the argument that a rebuild by itself is justifiable.
The length of the shared trackage isn't the issue--it's the switching back and forth between routes.
Would you care to name any section of track anywhere in the system of any length that is scheduled to carry more than 30 tph?
Bus capacity is much, much less than subway capacity.
You are forgetting that if the Utica Avenue line runs to Kings Plaza, then a large number of BRIGHTON riders would use the new line that currently do not use the IRT at all. Nobody in their right mind rides from Kings Plaza to Eastern Parkway to pick up the subway.
This would require that a full Second Avenue subway be complete, but do you seriously think the Utica Avenue line would be built before one?
I meant that the IRT does not have the capacity to accept the new riders.
Are you sure about that? Look at the #7. Many people change from outer Queens buses to the #7 in Queens, making the 7 crowded quite quickly, and it runs about 20 TPH to Main. The other approx. 10 tph in the rush starts at Willets/111th, covering intermediate stops. The Utica Ave line would outright absorb most of the B41, B46, and B47 riders, as well as many B9 riders, and would have connecting service to the B2, B3, B6, B7, B8, B12, B17, B35, B82, B100, B103, Q35, and some more B9 riders. A situation similar to that in Flushing would result at Kings Plaza. The only way this would work is if you sent all 5's down Utica instead of Flatbush. People who changed from the B41 before to get the Nostrand service would now choose Utica instead, so the demand level would shift, making the rush-hour 5 useless at Nostrand and more neccessary at Utica.
Although IMO this is all moot, because if ever such a line could be constructed (in terms of $$$$$$$$$$) this wouldn't even be a factor. The capacity would be drawn from elsewhere. (QB is saturated, but they built Archer and 63rd, didn't they?) And NIMBY's wouldn't be a problem either, as they would surely WELCOME such service that does not now exist, especially if it had very few stops to both speed the ride and minimize neccessary ground-level construction. Service through to Avenue U would have to begin immediately, and stops could then possibly be inserted along the line, first at Church, then Kings Hwy/Ave H, followed by Flatlands, then Ave O/Fillmore, and finally Ave D.
Another possibility is to have 2 trains serve the line (#2 only to Flatbush, #3 to New Lots, #4/#5 down Utica Ave).
Actually, it's been almost 80 years.
So you said yes in ESPANOL on shutting down the Sea Beach Line. HA HA a taste of your OWN medicine.
The English teacher returned the exam, marked:
"G-d knows
You don't
G-d will pass
You won't"
What part of "strictly hypothetical" did you fail to understand?
Yes there is. Branch off the Local Tracks of the Fulton St Line East of Utica Avenue Station, run under Rochester Ave, ENY Ave, Utica Ave to King's Plaza. Either add an extra Fulton St Local to provide service to Utica Ave (either another 8th Av Local via Cranberry, an extended V via Rutgers, or an extended T through a new tunnel to the Local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn) or send the C train down there and run the A train local East of Utica.
Not according to the timetable.
If you divert the C down Utica and run the A Local East of Utica, it would be possible to, say, run 18 A (2 extra for those 5 stops) and 12 C. 12tph would be enough for Utica Avenue. It is certainly possible. A new tunnel would, however, be preferable, as it would not come at the price of Fulton St Express beyond Utica, should the Utica Av Line require more than 7tph - which is by no means a certainty, especially if the line were truncated.
If every Cranberry train ran to Lefferts or the Rockaways (and was 600 feet long), you might have a point.
The Fulton express is a very useful service but it doesn't add any capacity at all to the line.
If locals terminate at Euclid, then the line past Euclid can't possibly be operating at capacity.
Capacity is a technical term in the context of subway service. If you use it to mean something else, the rest of us won't know what you're talking about.
There are other good reasons to object, like the loss of express service between Utica and Euclid. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not arguing in favor of such a line -- but capacity is a nonissue here.
This plan would extend service to Queens, while not taxing the capacity of the QB line. It would also solve the LIRR access to Lower Manhattan that they were talking about. It would be a very easy transfer to the "super express" at Jamaica.
That means nothing. While Brooklyn may have a lot of subway lines, there are still places in Brooklyn with no service. I agree that doing things like providing connections to 4th Avenue is a bigger waste of money than an investment in the Sea Beach line.
2)from Grand Street, connecting tracks to both sides of the Manhattan Bridge (because neither side can handle 4 services). Then 2 tracks starting at Gold Street in Brookyn, running deep under Flatbush Ave., stop only at Atlantic Ave, then 4-track configuration east of Prospect Park with interlocking to also allow the Brighton Express trains to bypass Dekalb, 7th Ave, and the new Eastern Parkway station on the Brighton Line. The 4-track line continues along Flatbush Ave to Ave U, where it turns and becomes 3 tracks, running under Ave U and Flatlands Ave, terminating at Gateway Center Mall.
- An extension from S 4th St station (located somewhere over the Broadway station on the Crosstown Gline), running parallel to Broadway to Bushwick Ave. At Myrtle Ave, it would turn south to run under Malcolm X Blvd... which will lead it to Utica Ave (shells in place at the Utica Ave station at Fulton St on the A/C lines). Run along Utica (with connections at Eastern Pkwy with the 3/4 lines) all the way to Flatbush Ave. Then, run SE along Flatbush Ave to Ave V, where the terminal (Kings Plaza) is located.
- An extension from the S 4th St station to Grand St. Run NE along Grant St into Queens to Maspeth Ave, where it would now run along Grand Ave to Queens Blvd (where a connection is for the G/R/V lines and a temporary terminal... with provisions to extensions beyond... possibly LaGuardia or areas of North Queens not covered by train service.
Sounds a little weird, but I think it could work.
The need has been mitigated by the arrival of bus-subway transfers; you transfer at the junction for a bus.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks, Mike
What is this fascination with the year 1928?
Thank you for your patience. We are writing a book in which a tale of a new comer to New York in 1928 gets lost on the subway in the area of Manhattan and Brooklyn. We have his story, but he is no longer living. We are dependent on you to get facts about the subway so we can mold the details of the story to match reality. We don't want the New York reader of our book to throw it down because it is not correct. Our book is historical fiction, but we would like it to be as authentic as possible.
Mike
Dear Mike,
Even though your work will be historical fiction I appreciate your desire for as much accruacy as can be done but IMHO the average younger (born in the 1970's and later) NYer these days wouldn't know the difference. Only those born in the 1950's or earlier might be able to tell. As to those born in the 1960's - that could go either way.
The further you get from a particular year in the past, unless events are well documented, the average person will tend not to know or remember them. Only those who are interested in certain events or situations will be aware of them. Unfortunately, we are in the minority of the population.
As for facts about the subway - you have definetly found the right place here at nycsubway.org. Many people don't know this (although those here do because I have posted it) the Library of Congress has a link to this site on their site.
Continued sucess with your research and eventual publication.
Allan
Thanks to your guidance, we now know that the best match of the details of our story and the details of what we have learned from you about the reality of the 1928 subway system in New York dictate that this happened on the IRT system (not the BMT) and it happened from subway to subway (not from an el to a subway.) It now appears that Dad's friend probably rode the Lexington Avenue line from the 68th street station to downtown Manhattan and back again each day.
The man's error of getting on the wrong subway took him under the East River to Brooklyn. The story goes he finally became so frustrated that he came out of the subway station to see where in the world he was. He saw the Manhattan skyline and the East River and told a stranger, "That's where I want to go...How can I get there?" He also insisted he was NOT going to get back on that subway! The stranger directed him to take a trolley right over the Brooklyn Bridge...which he did.
The reason we asked about the 1928 Clark Street Station is we knew it was fairly near the Brooklyn Bridge and we hoped it was an IRT station from which he could emerge and actually SEE enough of the river and enough of Manhattan to recognize where he was. Would this have been possible at any of the IRT stations in Brooklyn in 1928?
Thank you again...
Mike
He must have had a low frustration level if he got that angry in such a short time that he got off as early as Clark Street and then wanted to get back to Manhattan by another means--after all a trolley would just dump him right back at the Manhattan end of the Brooklyn Bridge, where he would have to deal with "that subway" all over again.
Most people seeing unfamiliar stations would ask where they were going, and then go back in the opposite direction on the same line.
Another problem is that, in order to end up in Brooklyn, he would have to have taken the opposite platform to the one he was used to, so ending up in the wrong place shouldn't have been such a mystery.
The story would only be feasible if he were originally Brooklyn-bound, and ended up Uptown--the opposite of what you've described. The reason for this is that there are loops on the downtown IRT, at City Hall (Lexington Avenue Line) and at South Ferry (both lines). So if you assume some situation where he took what he thought was a Brooklyn-bound train that unexpectedly looped and headed back uptown, there is a chance.
why didn't they build a commuter line up the east side?! perhaps a metrorail branch up the FEC line?? heck, you KNOW that such a line would see huge ridership
The Metrorail is planning on expanding in the near future.
Check www. trafficrelief.com and the Miami page on this website. The proposal map will show the additional routes.
And, Metrorail, Metromover & Metrobus will start running 24 hours on June 8 as well.
I can't recall the station. Might be further north of Miami in Boward County.
N line: Shuttle buses replace service between Kings Highway and 86th St.
2:01 AM SATURDAY TO 5 AM MONDAY.
They had to have that boo-boo for this week.
Incompetent Interns.
BTW address is
PATH
Attn: QuickCard Refund
9th Floor
One PATH Plaza
Jersey City, NJ 07306
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/21/national/21WIRE-YALE.html
SPECIAL NOTICE - MARCH OF DIMES TRIPS
JUNE 28, 2003 AND JUNE 29, 2003
Due to several requests, we will be shifting the dates of the IRT SMEE and R1/9 trips on June 28 and 29. This is being done to accommodate those patrons who wish an opportunity to ride both types of equipment, but due to various reasons do not have both a Saturday and a Sunday available to do so. The new schedule will be:
IND R1/9 cars will operate on Saturday, June 28 and will leave the Chambers Street Station on the J line at 10:30am.
The IRT SMEE cars (R12-15-17-33s) will operate on Sunday, June 29, 2003 and will leave from the Grand Central Shuttle platform, track 1 at 10:30am.
The June 7 and June 8 trips will operate as originally advertised.
Ticket orders that were sent in for this weekend using the old flyers will be filled on the basis of the type of train, not the date. If this is not what you wish, please return the tickets and indicate what changes you wish to make.
Thank you.
Info# (347) 643-5310
Wayne
Maybe the T.A. didn't have the money for the extra 25 cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Wherever the last car leaves off, that's where that series ends. Rarely do they begin another right in the middle of the series UNLESS they start up again with xx50 or xx51. Exception is the R46 renumbering which starts at 5482.
wayne
This time it involved the 42nd St. shuttle. The Times square platforms extended much further down 42nd St. and the station had higher ceilings. Plus the line was built to IND/BMT clearances. Here's the topper: a Triplex was running in revenue service on the shuttle! Number 6120, the last one in the bunch, was holding down the fort. When I saw it, all I could think was, man oh man, now's my chance to ride on one at last! Apparently it had never been retired and had been running on the shuttle since the mid-60s, just going and going and going....
BTW Fred was in it, too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, I ordered an additional SMEE ticket, which also came in today. That is ticket #54.
If you haven't ordered tickets already, do it now while seats are still available.
I am looking forward to this, as it will be my first Fan Trip double header....
-Stef
Seats? SEATS???? We don't need no stinkin' seats :o>
(Have fun, guys... I'll be thinking about you as I trundle on down to Short Beach and back...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
P.S. at least the weathers nice in the pic
Peace,
ANDEE
This is significant in that they gathered the opinions of local residents on what they want to see happen in their neighborhoods. They did this by conducting public meetings throughout the area. There's a lot of demand for better mass transit. Especially extending existing lines and putting the Bay Ridge line to better use.
The line would cross every major subway line and bus line in Brooklyn, and provide direct access to Brooklyn College, the Brooklyn Army Terminal, Brooklyn Terminal Market, and perhaps even JFK with one change. Since not all streets pass over the line, there would be few intersections. Since it would intersect major streets at grade, a wide variety of bus routes could use it for part of the way, in addition to the dedicated BRT route. For one thing, it could be used for bus routes in the part of Brooklyn without subways. They'd run north-south on major avenues, then scoot east-west on the BRT line, for an easy transfer to the subways.
Stations could be added for pre-payment and confort. Fare evasion? Given free transfers, unless you weren't planning to transfer to another subway or bus, you couldn't get very far without paying a fare.
1) Is the program still being produced these days?
2) Have any of us ever come across the roving reporters in the subways?
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a 10 minute video that I bet you would enjoy watching.
Steve has seen the tape, in fact he may still have a copy.
Do I remember correctly? Your 2332 is horn equipped, but does not need a D cell battery to sound the horn?
Don't try to make that slidng shoe. The parts are still available. I probably have some on my workbench.
TT-208 Collector Shoe
TC-109 Shoe plate
TT-210 Collector Rivet
Only time will tell if the offshore stuff built today will still be around in 50 years.
I recieved a HO Lionel GP30 in BN paint, the thing was a nightmare, pickup on the front trucks, power on the rear with rubber treads, and the usual 200mph scale speed. Plus a horrifying grinding sound accompanied by a slight smell of burning plastic everytime it moved. And the thing was supposed to have been kept in it's box for almost 30 years at my grandparents house before I got it!
Now the Athearn SW7 that came with the same box, that is a quality engine, all I had to do was stick some handrails on it and I had the perfect drag freight motor. I have high hopes for my SD40-2s and single SDP40 (in CNW paint no less, ripoff hobby shop telling me it was an SD38!) living nice long lives.
Lionel is dead, Long Live Athearn!
Maybe that was one of the things that did Lionel in, building electric trains that lasted and took a lot of punishment. I can't tell you how many times I engineered (heh!) full speed head on collisions with my NYC "F" units abd NYC steam loco. After the dust cleared, you put them back on the track and they kept running. You couldn't kill a Lionel train. That's why the original ones are still running today.
Bill "Newkirk"
And many times I ran my Dad's boxcab electric (purchased in late 1920's) off the plarform onto the floor when the rheostat stuck and the train couldn't negotiate the curve at the end of the platform. Granted my Dad had the engine rebuilt 35 years ago, but it still runs.
Let me assure you there is another generation who are gung ho to run trains whemever they visit (from opposite end of same block) and seriously enjoy fan trips.
Those search light towers used a unique light bulb. A minature bulb with a indent on the top. The beacon had a pin that would rest in the indent and the heat generated by the bulb would turn the beacon. If I remember correctly, there were some fins on the top of the beacon that helped direct the heat from the lamp that turned the beacon. Very ingenious, without using a motorized beacon. You gotta give Lionel credit for fueling a kids imagination when railroads were still king.
I spoke of the NY Central "F" units, motor unit and dummy I had. As a kid, I was transfixed on the Santa Fe "F"'s with warbonnet paint scheme with passenger cars. I only had freight cars, no passenger cars. I wanted that Santa Fe set with the illuminated coaches so bad. That never happened.
A good friend of mine once told me years ago of everyone having a Lionel trainset. Even if it was a circular track with no wild accessories, every kid he knew of had a Lionel train set.
And who can forget Christmas, when under the tree I pulled a gift wrapped box that was rectangular in shape. I knew it was a Lionel freight car to add to my setup.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those were the days!
1) Entering Chambers Street BMT on Sunday, intending to return to your humdrum apartment in Brownsville, you accidentally get on a Coney Island Express, get off at the beach, meet a striking flapper, fall in love and live happily ever after.
2) Entering South Ferry el terminal, you intend to take a 6th Avenue train to visit midtown, but take a 9th Avenue train instead, end up in Harlem, where you meet a jazz great who changes your perception of your humdrum world.
Moral: if you have a humdrum life in 1928, be careless what train you get on.
Daily News Article
Hourly Wage Rates...Contract TWU Local 100 and NYCT...current wage
Bus Maintainer 24.35
Car Cleaner 19.39
Cleaner T/A 19.39
Car Inspector 25.43
Car Maintainer 25.43
Collection Agent 21.80
Conductor 21.25
Train Operator, yard 23.40
Train Operator, road 23.35
Signal Maintainer 24.54
Road Car Inspector 26.08
TPPA (security guard) 18.97
Towerperson 23.00
Track Worker 22.24
My gripe is that experienced engineers/technicians working as Car
Inspectors don't make much more than positions requiring a High School diploma and five years of any work experience. My crew now
has five experienced aviation mechanics...we are all working TA
for job security. I'd like to know the specifics of 'engineering' salaries...most likely we earn more. This is TWU...the salary disparagence is based upon politics and membership.
The Memo [attached]:
Whither "Rea?"
This past weekend Amtrak Engineering department forces cut "Rea"
interlocking into service just east of Newark, NJ. "Rea" was carved out of
what used to be "Hudson" interlocking which still remains but with smaller
territory.
Old "Hudson" was at roughly the location where Manhattan Transfer was
constructed and opened for service in 1910 as part of the Pennsylvania
Railroad's mammoth project of building its access into New York from New
Jersey. This project was undertaken in the first decade of the last century
and included the construction of the High Line across the Jersey Meadows,
the North River tunnels under Bergen Hill and the Hudson River, Penn Station
and its support facilities, the East River tunnels and Sunnyside Yard
together with the connections to LIRR in Queens.
Originally, trains operated in this territory using direct current electric
power with the supply coming from a 3rd rail. Electric operation extended
as far west as the Manhattan Transfer facility where the DC electric engines
were swapped for steam locomotives. There were a couple of high level
island platforms there in addition to the tracks. Passengers could change
trains. Some went to Jersey City via the original main line route that now
is owned by PATH. The others went to New York utilizing the new High Line
route that the NEC uses today.
The name "Rea" comes from Samuel Rea who was a vice president of the
Pennsylvania Railroad at the turn of the century and who was placed in
overall charge of the entire project of constructing the railroad's access
into and through New York. Mr. Rea was a native of Hollidaysburg,
Pennsylvania located south of Altoona, who became employed by the Pennsy in
the late 19th century. After supervising the New York improvement project,
he continued to work his way up the ladder and later become president of the
PRR. It was during his presidential administration that the 6 track
railroad we have today from Elizabeth to Rahway was built, among other
improvements.
It was to preserve the memory of his contribution to the infrastructure that
still serves us so well today that "Rea" was selected as the name for the
new interlocking. There is a statue of him on the 7th Avenue side of 2 Penn
Plaza in New York that used to be in Penn Station until it was torn down in
the 1960's.
"Rea" is a part of the capacity improvements that have been underway for the
last 10 years leading to greater capability for more trains to access Penn
Station from New Jersey. Most of these improvements have been paid for by
NJ Transit deriving funding from federal and New Jersey sources. These have
included the new frequency converter station at the east end of Sunnyside
yard, track improvements at Sunnyside, the new 7th Avenue concourse station
within Penn Station that opened last September, the High Density
Interlocking Signal system (HDIS) that will be fully in service at the end
of June between "Dock" and "A" tower, the Kearny Connection between the NEC
at "Swift" interlocking and NJT's Morristown Line, and the Secaucus Transfer
Station between "Portal" and "Allied" to be opened for weekend service in
September and weekday service in the Fall or early Winter of this year.
Combined with the jointly funded LIRR/Amtrak PSCC control center, these have
added up to major improvements in NY.
As a measure of what has been accomplished through these improvements, in
May, 1996, just before NJT's June opening of Midtown direct service using
the Kearny Connection at "Swift," 253 total trains per day, counting both
directions, operated between Penn Station and "Swift" through the North
River tunnels and over the High Line. As of the April timetable change just
implemented, that number has grown to 421 trains per day.
Making this extraordinarily high level of service work, even with these
modest improvements made to the infrastructure, won't happen consistently
without an extraordinary level of discipline in the way everyone works
together to manage our trains in New York every minute of every day. This
really does mean EVERYONE: the dispatchers who route the trains, station
personnel who work with customers and supervise their boarding, road crews
who need to get trains out on their scheduled time, yard crews who need to
get empty equipment trains out of the station to Sunnyside Yard quickly in
the morning to free up room for other inbound trains, mechanical forces who
must insure that everything works properly so that mechanical problems do
not delay train movements, engineering forces who must insure that signals,
ET, track, communications systems, and all other infrastructure work
flawlessly, and police personnel of both Amtrak and MTA who provide security
so that threats to the operation do not occur that could get in the way of
our ability to provide normal service.
Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR managers meet regularly to plan for the future and
integrate the operating schedules of the three railroads. Without the
cooperation that has existed between the railroads we could not have gotten
to today's high level of service which on weekdays for all three railroads
sees 988 trains per day operating into or out of Penn Station. The "JO"
interlocking clearance project is about wrapped up after extraordinary work
by engineering employees working with the transportation employees of the
three user railroads. The restrictions prohibiting parallel moves at "JO"
are expected to be removed in June which will improve the flows of trains
between the station and Lines 1 and 2 of the East River Tunnels - $20
million spent for improved capacity.
The planning and investing for the future that was such a hallmark of Sam
Rea and the Pennsylvania Railroad of a hundred years ago is still present at
Penn Station today albeit in a much changed institutional setting.
While we have reason to celebrate what we have accomplished, we need to be
mindful that the bar is set very high today and everyone must do their very
best to see that we execute with precision everyday because our customers
depend upon us to do so. Meeting our customer's needs and the growing
transportation requirements of today's congested world consistently and
safely is what we are about. Working together and recognizing the
challenges, we can do it.
Walter R. Ernst
General Superintendent
New York Division, Amtrak
May 20, 2003
There is absolutely no good reason to go around playing the name game. Interlockings can easily be composed of sub-interlockings with the same name. All adding names does is cause confusion.
Bill "Newkirk"
I better stop, I'm giving Doomy more ammo...QUACK QUACK!
Whoop. Prohibited thought, gotta turn myself in ... see ya. Oh wait, what was that in Patrick McGoohan's thing with the lava lamps, "No, we'll be seeing YOU." Oh yeah. I tell ya, this Shrub experience is like a TRAIN RIDE in "Monkey Jungle" in Florida ... "where the guests are in cages and the apes roam free" ... like Al Qaeda. Osama. Saddam and Ken Lay. :(
When the NEXT thing comes...I'll have to read my "Almanac of obscure city Laws" to see what Doomy's up to...It's like the FDNY Ops guide where at any given moment you're technically in violation of something. Hey! Stop that man! He's making his eggs sunny side up! ARREST HIM!
And with all THIS, they're STILL gonna close the firehouses. Sigh. :(
So "qaulity of life" with a VENGEANCE ... given the 9/11 color code, do you think Rudy would have been any BETTER? Mind ya, I understand. I'd be willing to bet that if Shrub wasn't handing out lottery winnings to his pals without them even buying a TICKET, New York would have been made WHOLE for Shrub's foreign policy whoopsies. Alas, *YOU* got stuck with the bill so Ken Lay can cash in his dividends. :(
Welcome to "proud to be a republican" ... or a "cluless democrat" ... matters not, NONE of them are looking out for YOU. Can't we PLEASE have ANYTHING ELSE?!?!?!?! :(
I'd aggressively campaign to make the city livable again...the money is there, it's just a matter of finding it. One place to look is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC whose occupant promised us $20 Billion right after 9/11. Where's da money?
I don't claim to have nearly all the answers. But I'd at least make a start. Before the public lynched me for raising prices on gas and phone use, I'd lower the parking fine schedule and let folks really see how those extra nickels and dimes pay off in the long run.
Plus all railfans ride free! Yaay!
Politics is a WHOLE lot more complicated than it looks, and in order to get elected you've got to suck up to SOMEONE willing to give you enough money for bumper stickers, campaign lit'rature and other nonsense such as renting beerhalls and such. Otherwise, you're about as popular as WE are here at nsclean.com ... where I work. NSCLEAN WHO?!?!?! Shows ya the value of pything off Microsoft and having computer 'zines everywhere threatened with "if you MENTION these assholes, no more M$ advertising for YOU!" ... needless to say, despite the quality work we do here in protecting Windows computers, once you're on Billy's NIXON LIST, you're DONE. And that's why I can't afford to get to Branford, we don't EXIST even if we were the first at what we do. :(
Click HERE to see how SelkirkTMO got on Bill Gates' chitlist (note where the URL points to ...)
And then, we ARGUED with Microsoft wiglets in public on TV. Bottom line, as they say in Japan, "the nail which sticks up shall be hammered down." Been there, done that, that's why Unca Selkirk WILL NOT run for "office" and WHY Selkirk places a pox on BOTH their political houses.
As always, "can't we PLEASE have ANYTHING ELSE?" :(
I will never forget that expression you wore while operating 1689. All business, as it should be.
Not that I minded the moo. I was hoping to hear one of your zany announcements. Next time.:)
"LADDIES AND GERMS, this is a northbound SeaBits train to URANUS, please watch for lingering Klingons, watch your wallets and purses - politicos on board, and HAVE A NICE PHUCKING DAY ... any passengers FAILING to have a nice day WILL be spanked, please move to the first car on this train for the ministrations of proper conduct at the hands of the appointed train service supervisor who will administer the shoe paddle for your delight, edificatioon and amusement. Watch the CLOSING doors please and THANK YOU for bending over. Next stop, 50 feet. THANK you for being ridden by the MTA.
Do you understand NOW why they have orders to "shoot to maim" me bucko? :)
How MANY holes? Nah, it's CLINTON's fault. Clinton PROSECUTED Billy for phucking internet users. BUSH let him slide. Homeland Security. I work for a company that stops that stuff. And STILL, folks actually TRUST Bill Gates. Heh. But yeah, I *warned* of "Klez, and so many OTHER things that come to reality OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. Imagine if an "off the street" T/O could hit a homeball 500 times a DAY and sign out with a "thanks for showing up!" out of their LIne super ... and yet, like ENRON, Microsoft gets over with it again and again, based upon the current "regime" which they financed. Oh, DIVIDEND on MS stock, version 6.0!
Geez ... I *really* need to get some sleep - OBSESSED with the DEGREE of screwing (say Grace) for which we are ABOUT to receive, through Shurb our tax lawyer amen ....
No matter what you say about NY having been "Fun City," 42nd Street is better now.
Gotta love the official pronouncer of family values, fortified with 100% pure fundamentalist moral fiber who stuck the high hard one to someone else while he was MARRIED with children, dissing Clinton for a little cab blessing by comparison ...
New York VOTED for a REPUBLICAN (Doomberg) and they got what comes when you elect Republicans. If you ain't rich ... well ...
Then again, Mark Green. HAHAhahahahahahahaha ... a BLENDER would have gotten elected. :)
Republicans. Democrats. Can't we have SOMETHING ELSE?!?!?! :(
Does anyone know if there is an official policy about those fold down seats on the new cars? It seems that they were made for just one person, but I don't want to get busted if the TA intends for them to be for 2 or 3 or even 4 people? What's the law on this one?
Also, if I use that fold down seat and there is noone else in the car will I get a ticket for taking up that space that was intended for handicapped riders? Same as the folks with a bag on a seat in an empty car.
Is this all part of a TA plan to make the subway for Lawyers only?
In the movie "Demolition Man" everything that isn't good for you is bad, and therefore illegal. Except here in the real world, you gotta pay...
Break out the adult diapers. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There is at least one river in Midtown as well. It flows through the subbasement of the old home of the American Place Theatre (45 & 6).
Yes, it's in midtown.
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
'In God We Trust...All Others Pay Cash.'
Jean Shepherd and Long John Nebbile...REAL RADIO. CI Peter
INSIDE the hidden project is a HUGE compressed air cannon (powered by all those unnoticed, removed from Arnine service, compressors) ... even HEYPAUL was unable to obtain one of THESE prized parts! With over 7,000 TONNES per square cm, these babies can launch democrats into outer space! :)
But I thought 76th Street was where the R-160 prototypes were kept after another Subtalker saw 'em at 207. QUACK, QUACK.
Google "Municipal Assistance Corporation" and "New York City Transitional Finance Authority" ... see who REALLY runs NYC ... it AIN'T BLOOMY ... he's a HANDPUPPET. So was "Mighty Rude-E" ... It's D'AMATO's city. Wonder why the R-160's are coming from a FRENCH company?
Regime change, anyone? :(
So what happened? MAC may have its mandate but Mayoral day-to-day (mis)management still seroiusly impacts our budget. Handpuppets or not, the mayor still influences whether we enjoy feast or endure famine. That goes for transit systems, too, as the Mayor puts voting members on the board there, and it's his cops who protect the system. The mayor's responsibility for our current mess cannot be understated.
True, there are historical issues at work here, but it's Doomy in the PRESENT who must manage the mess.
While JOE BRUNO has impressed *ME* with "religion" in the past couple of weeks, bear in mind that it is the New York State Assembly and the New York State Senate that RULE NYC's realities, along with MAC and other secret tribunals, it is the *STATE* that determines the outcome STILL.
you guys are *SO* screwed ... and yet you decide to blame BLOOMBERG. Sorry, REALLY can't help myself here, but BOOOWHAHAHAHAHAhahahahah. Never thought I'd *ever* see New Yorkers get scammed by a chit-arsed SIDEWALK ACT, but y'ave all been *HAD* ... next week's drawing is worth FORTY-SIX BILLION DOLLARS!!! Woohoo! Scratch an elephant. :(
"But sire, I only had enough money to buy food. I have nothing left."
"Fool! You put aside your tribute BEFORE you eat! Clap him in irons!"
That's coming, mark my words.
A 33.5% increase in the cost of living in one year? In the imortal words of the "Get Smart" TV show, I find that hard to believe. What is your source?
Tom
Subway fare
Gasoline prices
City and State taxes
Property tax increases
Utility costs
Car insurance increases
LIRR increases
My salary has not kept pace with all these, totaling 33% more than this time last year.
Consider yourself lucky if you haven't also had a decrease in income at the same time, like many Americans.
What the average working guy does not realize is that for every $1 that the union gets workers who are not needed, it takes $1+ more in taxes to pay that employee's salary.
Those higher taxes chase even more tax revenue out of state
Welcome to the middle class.
What you are feeling is the pinch of ineffecient govenment. All those union bosses that are fighting to keep the payrole padded with unneeded workers comes out of your pocket. For the union bosses it means more money and power for them.
For the union worker it means less buying power becasuses taxes need to be raised to cover the expense.
TAX THE RICH. This stategy has resulted in many upper middle class people moving out of the city taking the jobs and income tax revenue with them. The end result is the middle class guy has to pick up more of the tab for the out of control social programs which if they truely helped people I would not mind paying for them.
These practices HURT the avarage working class guy in thier pocketbooks
The end result is that the higher taxes(both state, city and the UNION tax) chase away business and middle class folks like you and me to places where they can live a better life on thier salary.
The S/A at secondary entrances, long trains with two man crews overnights, manual traffic checkers, two man crews during the day and weekend, inflexible union rules, the 30% primium trade unions members get vs NJ, out of control rent control rules, secion 8 funding(which artificially inflates apartment prices in poor areas) and tort laws that favor the trail lawyers.
All these extra's drive up the taxes you pay which reduces the buying power of your salary. It is not jut income taxes. Gas tax, surcharges on your phone bill pays for the MTA, nearly 2/3 of the inflated bridge and tolls revenue goes to the mta, plus .025% sales tax goes to fund transit
Unless the MTA and the city get serious about reducing unneeded positions, your salary will continue to rise, but your buying power will continue to sink.
The MTA could operate with 25% fewer staff at current service levels if and when it deploys technologies used elsewhere and cut administrative staff.
The Board of Ed just realocated $100 million it was spending on ineffective Community school districts which were political patronage mills and reallocatd it to the classroom. These district offices had the discretion to spend tens of million of dollars is discretionary funds without much oversignt, Much of this money went to high priced consultants and politically connected suppliers. I know, I invesigated such issues for DOI.
In addition the deapertmetn of education is forced to keep uneducated teachers aids which in study after study have proved do nothing to enhance student education. Part of the problem is that union rules do not allow teachersa and administrators rate and fire those aids who do not do a good job. The school system spends $50 million dollars that could be used for more teachers
A company we work for just laid off ALL 150 of their programmers, Oracle DBA's and admins and contracted with a company in New Delhi to replace EVERYBODY with 450 workers at 30 cents an hour. Cost savings to the company? $150 MILLION! And YES, *I* am off the payroll TOO! Not that they paid their bills anyway, so minimal loss.
Citicorp, Morgan Stanley and OTHERS are among the companies KILLING computer jobs. Just thought I'd suggest, be CAREFUL what you wish for. The company *I* work for pays as much as it can - used to be AMAZING bucks when we were doing well. I made over $150K a year! Just for writing CODE! Of course, that was a LEFT wing administration in power, so it was a glitch I s'pose.
Bottom line, *YOUR* job is worth 30 cents an hour. Be careful what you wish for. :)
Part of the reason outsourcing to india is acceptable is that we did not have enough trained computer specialists in this countr. Many firms were forces to outsource part of their programing during the boom and import foreign workers. becasue of this they feel comfortable using outsources supplier.
Part of the reason is places like NYC mis-allocate thier money spending far too litte on education. If our residents were properly educated, more of nyc residents would have filled the technology jobs and never opened the door to india.
We spend $40k on s/a who are basically over glorifieds store clerks
while we apend
Up until this year we paid teachers $28k starting salary.
We spend $50 milliom million on classroom aids who possess no qaulifications or training as educators. These positions are basically a jobs program for low incom workers and have nothing to do with educating our children
while we do have enough guildance consolers and social workers to help school children . Many of these children are from single parent families or are first generation americans who do not have a clue of what it takes to make it in the country
If the city and MTA would streamline it's operations removing duplicate, unneeded functions more money would be available to properly educate our children for the world of tommorrow. Just as some states in India have done. Remember thire population is much poorer then any population here in NYC. They roose to the challange
In this city we have civic leaders and union bosses that look for excuses instead of solutions. In essence we take away the incentive to work hard for many workers. One city concilman wants to put a law into effect prohibiting the police department from setting goals for police officer further reducings the cities ability to manage it's workforce
Union in this city have overstepped thier original purpose and have in effect harmed thier employees. That is more my point to the earler post than anything else. We place the needs of the union leadership over the needs of the population as a whole.
The united states is falling behind the education race in this new world where high;y skilled workers are needed to come up with solutions to problems. NYC is follwoing the ill fated european model of socialistic job protectionism.
There are plenty of jobs for all Legfal NYC residents if we just eliminate unnneded positions and enforce our immigration laws.
SERIOUSLY, Our GOP lawgivers have seen fit to not ONLY encourage this behavior, but the company that we worked for, in ADDITION to cutting their payroll by 92%, ALSO get a TAX CREDIT which completely eliminates the 8% cost, but gives them a PROFIT of 30% for chitcanning EVERYBODY! The Indian company that they contracted out with is ALSO going to monitor their webcams from India, AND call the police!
The reason I whipped this in here, is that after the meeting last night about this, and all of the arguments that have been ongoing about how the "union MTA" does things, at least the MTA is still going to have some JOBS ... SCARY to say the least. If I wasn't working for a VERY small company with only a handful of very dedicated people, and a CEO who IS a democrat running the place, I'd have to be hosing down my PANTS right about now as to the prospect of employment in writing software!
And from all the resumes we see (that we can't AFFORD to hire) and the sheer number of layoffs industrywide (We tried to find oil in the internet and there was none, so to HELL with the internet, let'em eat government SANCTIONED spam) things in "high tech" are about to get worse in THIS country than shoeing horses (and there's STILL a few around here that do that) ... DAMNED scary ...
But there's hope ... maybe the subways will still be hiring. :(
(last thing I want to HEAR about is filing ANOTHER G2)
The reason there were not enough trained computer specialists in this country is the same as the reason there are not enough trained lettuce pickers. The employers do not want to pay enough to bring people into the field. In both cases they rely on foreign workers who will work at wages and in conditions that are unacceptable to most Americans.
Tom
Our school systems are not producing enough candidates. I started my college carear as a computer science major at a top 10 program. 90% of my classmates were born overseas. 60% were not american citizens.
"The employers do not want to pay enough to bring people into the field. "
In the case of technology workers your statement is completly untrue. Employers were willing to pay whatever it took to hire people to properly do the job. The problem is that you don't just create people who have a strong base of math and science overnihgt. it takes years of training and hard work. many employers especially consulting firms throughout the late 1990's were hiring libral art majors with good GPA's and putting them througnh 2 months crash courses on computer programing and technology deployment.
The problem is these crash course students lacked the fundemental base of math and science and the thinking and problem solving mindset that was required to right well written code and envisioning technological solutions.
These skills must be tought at a young age and developed over time. Algebra, geometry, calculus is the base for many programing languagesa and mechanical engineering. These base mathe skills muct be developed over time.
One of the reason I am so well versed on technology issues and have proven to be very successuful in deploing technology to solve problems is my education from brooklyn tech. Besides the regents mathe, I also was exposed to advsnced math and other engineering disiplans.
Math, science, engish and the arts need to be streesed in our schools. We need to spend heavily on these areas if we want America to be the success it was in the 20th century
As for the outsourcing issues. Comapnies were forced to outsource certain items in he late 1990's becasue they could not find enough qauified americans. It was through this neccessity that it became acceptable. Many companies still prefer to keep thier developement in house., It is easier to manage a project when all peeople are in the same place in the same time zone. I worked with some outsourcing consultants that were based in India. It was a pain in the neck to get things done. Communication issues was the top problem followed by time zone issues. The problem is that they do not always understand the problem they are tring to solve
That's true, and when I was coming up in the ‘50s following 20 years of liberal Democratic government policies, many people were studying math and science to become engineers because that was the sexy well paying thing, while liberal arts was considered a route to a low paying teaching job. By the ‘90s everyone was well aware of the discarded aerospace engineers unable to find work, and the big salaries of business CEOs and Wall Street MBAs leaving a shortage of math and science oriented students. The U.S., with its neo colonial attitude, then began a brain drain of the third world (to be used as temporary help when needed) in all sciences including computers and medicine, rather than building a program which would adequately reward those who followed the math and science career path in the U.S., but would require long term investment by business and government rather than what will affect this quarter's earnings, or allow a politically motivated short term tax cut.
Tom
The problem is these crash course students lacked the fundemental base of math and science and the thinking and problem solving mindset that was required to right well written code and envisioning technological solutions.
I beg to differ with your logic on that. I am a "liberal arts" (history) graduate with additional graduate study in history and library science. In 1978 I joined a major computer manufacturing firm, who promptly sent me back to school for 14 weeks and taught me the basics of debugging. From there I picked up programming on my own, and did it quite successfully for that employer (eventually branching into project management) until they downsized in 1994. I think that the rigors of my historical training were more than enough of a substitute for any math and science background I might have lacked.
As for the outsourcing issues. Comapnies were forced to outsource certain items in he late 1990's becasue they could not find enough qauified americans.
Well, when educated Americans can't even write a sentence that is spelled or punctuated correctly, what do you expect? But the biggest issue was not finding qualified individuals here but rather one of money. In the short term, it appears that outsourcing makes financial sense; the difficulties you mention aren't taken into consideration. My present employer has outsourced many jobs to foreign countries, often to firms controlled by family members of those making the outsourcing decisions. They are discovering that this wasn't such a good idea and are now bringing the work back in house, but at the same time they are outsourcing other work to another US firm (my former employer, no less!) that in turn is outsourcing much of it overseas... with predictable results.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I live near a station that is a senior man job. I know the SA from the Union and have stayed there talking with him. You could argue that his job is totally unnecessary but you would not believe how stupid people are and the kinds of help they need.
As for the operating titles. Cameras are WAY overrated, cutting and adding trains during the day adds wear and tear on couplers, 3/4 of the brake pipe ruptures I have dealt with involved leaks at the coupler. In theory it is a 'new' train and must be checked out. What do you do with the C/R's during the day? Pay them splits? The rush hour goes on past 10am and a one man crew is just asking for truoble once the high school kids start to hit the trains around 2-3 pm so there is not much of a window for savings anyway.
Short trains will be slower as not all motor fault lights work
or will reset and you will have the G train dash all over the place.
Look at the work prgrams, the age of the one tripper is almost over and even those people get stuff like the wash or plat (and they actually do that stuff now). Selkirk got to fart around when he was a junior man and if he stayed he still would have a job like that but at this point it takes almost 25+ to pick those kind of 'easy' jobs.
You can not justify spending the outragious amount of money the MTA spends on S/A for those few people who walk through life without a clue. For the money the S/A get paid they should be trained to be peace officers and patrol the stations helping passengers and providing seccurity ot riders.
The city, state and MTA have a limmited amount of money to spend on the needs of the citizens. Citizebs in this city already pay more then thier fair share. That money should be redistributed to where it is needed most. Overpaying for certain tittle in the tune of twice the going rate makes it hard to pay those tittle that are hard to fill wthh qualified people Like teachers, principles, guildance counsolers social workers, nurses, police, etc.
Everyone complains about how bad NYC schools are. At a starting salary of $28,000(they just got a raise to $37k starting still low for what they do) with masters no wonder half the teachers did not have thier certifications. All of our children especially children of union members suffered. School can not provide guildance counsolers especially to children from single parent homes who need special attention.
By cuttig out the fat at the MTA and other areas, the moeny will be spent other places, more frequent treains service, better education etc. Overpaying hurts everyone including the guy who is overpaid
"cutting and adding trains during the day adds wear and tear on couplers, 3/4 of the brake pipe ruptures I have dealt with involved leaks at the coupler. In theory it is a 'new' train and must be checked out. What do you do with the C/R's during the day? Pay them splits? "
Spiting trains during the day is not possible or practical. Spiting a few train at night is. As for the coupler wear issue, Since most trains sets are configured as 4 or 5 car half trains already, design a new coupler that is less prone to the wear and tear you describe. For instance break control between the two half car train sets could be by-wire with a wireless backup instead of physical break pipe. My point is their are solutions and technologies to adress the coupler wear issue and other associated issues. The shorter train should be impilimernted where they make sense. They make sense on most lines from 9PM-6:30 AM mon-fri and all day on some lines on weekends.
I did 7 hours of rail fanning on the L and G yesterday. The MTA if they want shorter length trains and full length OPTO trains be successful they need to make improvements to help both customer and crew.
Platforms must clearly be marked for where shortened trains will stop. One way is the make all warning stripes be green where the shortend train will stop. Green as to symbolize all train stop here at all time. The areas where the traind do not stop the stripe would remian yellow to symbolize sometimes.
The needs to be in cab Flat pannel monitors for crew members to monitor platform doors. The platform mouted monitors are prone to glare, dirty screens and other issues that make it harder to properly view the platform. in addtion at some stations T/O need to leave thier driving position increasind dwell time
Plus the platform monitors using CRT monitors and Fans to keep the enclosures cool which are far more expensive in the long run then in cab Flat panel screens. Concidering all the new rail cars have flat panel screens for the crew, the incrimental cost of in cab CCTV is not that great. The cost of a 15in flat panel is down under $200 retail.
since such an arrangement will roll out over a number of years, it may make sense to upgrade only R46 and newer for in cab CCTV and upgraded couplers.
"In theory it is a 'new' train and must be checked out."
I realize that when two half trains are put back together in to one full length train safety checks need to be doen before the train goes back in service. There should be enough time to reassemble trains in the morning and do all safety checks prior to going tint service.
In reality we are only talking about putting about 20 trains back together systemwide. The MTA should work with the rail manufactures to design a coupler that the crew could release at a touch of a botton inside the cab in terminal to spit up the train, that replaces mechanical components with by-wire electrical components with redunancy such as wireless communication to reduce coupler failure issues.
The MTA solved alot of teh couler problems by hard wireing cars in groups. Similar solutions could be come up with to improve reliablity at the couplers.
These upgrades will pay for themselves rather quikly. Like I stated above, the money saved will just be redistributed elsewhere. The citizens of the city deserve better education, more frequent service and lower train fares.
It's a qauilty of life issue. We are hitting a wall of afordability in this city. raising salaries to manicipal workers to match the raises just pushes costs and taxes even higher. It is a proven fact.
Two more of my neighbors just sold thier house and are moving out to Jersey and LI. One familiy is a cop and a nurese(both just retired this year) and the other family is a cop and and a T/O. Middle class families are stuck with poor schools esculating taxes partly because some forces in some unions fight to keep jobs that just are no longer needed. It is a shame. I know sometimes I come across as a union hatter. I am not, I just don't like how the unions leaders are screwing thier employees over. The hard working union guy is the guy who suffers the most.
One example is garbage men. The city could be using trucks with can lifter arms(parks department uses them on the boardwalk in CI) Sanitation would potentially need fewer garbagemen, maybe not. The city could require all residents use a certain size garbage can. This would increae the qauilty of life of garbage men as they would not have so many back problems and pain upon retirement. The union was steadfastly against it when it was preposed to test such a system 15 years ago.
The system has its problems: Sometimes it rips out Flanders' mailbox and throws it away instead.
If you are really serious about this please look at the work programs and timetables for several lines and I will submit any modifed workprogram and timetable you can come up with.
Eatontown, New Jersey recently switched to the use of trucks with can lifters. The town also provided residents with specially-designed 96-gal. capacity cans. The new trucks (two instead of the three that were required previously) are operated by a driver and a lift operator, neither of whom need leave the cab, rather than by a driver and two "hoisters", who were constantly exposed to the risks of traffic as well as lifting the cans. Four employees can now do the work that it formerly took nine to do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do the residents move the cans to the curb once they fill up? 96 gallons of trash is too heavy to drag, much less lift.
The city where my mother lives in Connecticut has a similar system. The cans are on large wheels and can be moved fairly easily even when full.
One benefit of the size of the can is that I don't have to put it out as often. My old can went out to the curb about every third collection day (they collect trash twice a week); now I only have to have it emptied every four or five collection days, and even then that's more a precaution against it getting full to overflowing. (We're big recyclers - cans, bottles, paper, cardboard, newspapers, plastic bags - so we generate a lot more of that than we do trash.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Other places have gone further and provided two different colored trash cans and require residents to sort recyclable trash in one can. The pickup trucks have separate bins on them to load each color trash can into its proper bin.
Tom
Eatontown has that as well, sort of... we have a blue bin for mixed glass/plastic/cans (including tin cans) and another one for newspapers. That is all picked up twice a month by a private company who bid for the privilege.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And can anyone figure out the drawings for the Cira Center? I'm especially having problems with the pedestrian bridge, it looks like it will dump those people crossing 30th st right onto the tracks for the R5/R6 in 30th St Stations upper level. This can't be right, can it? Would they shut down the line so that the ped-bridge can be constructed? Or is this just some Architect that isn't paying attention?
After a few bad encounters I've yet to be bothered by anyone else there (cept the Parking people, but they don't count). I'll have to try and ask the Police the next time I'm down there, never actually thought to do that, hehe. I'm assuming that the lower level Amtrak employee lot is strictly off limits, no matter what permission is recieved, correct?
I've finished my final exams, I'm home from college for the summer, and I have a summer job which will allow me to ride the L every day--and now I'd like to top it off by visiting my girlfriend in Scarsdale. Here's the only problem--strangely enough, the cheapest flights are all in and out of LGA (thanks, ATA!), but she can't pick me up at LGA, so I'll have to head in her direction via MNRR. If I were arriving mid-morning Thursday and leaving mid-afternoon Sunday, would it be reasonably safe and convenient to get to Grand Central via the M60 bus to Astoria and then the N/W to the 4/5/6? Assuming it's a good idea (I could take a cab, but I'm a lurker/very occasional poster on SubTalk, aren't I?), how much time should I allow?
Thanks,
Tom
CG
But the idea of taking the M60 into Manhattan and get the MNRR at 125th St/Park Avenue (only 1 block west from Lexington Avenue)is a good one but not every MNRR train that stops there will stop at Scarsdale. It is best you check the MNRR section of the MTA site for schedules.
It's hard to say how much time to give yourself for the return trip. How much of a gambler are you? There could be heavy traffic on Sunday with the M60 very irregular.
Longer on average but less unpredictable is probably returning to GCT, then 7 to 74th, then bus. If the bus doesn't come and time is short you can probably find a livery cab.
I'm asking because, I'm also looking for secondary jobs and my friends told me that there many place in the city are hiring especially the MTA. There is a job vacancy listing available in MTA Headquarter 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Weekend Passes (Special Excursion Passes)
These one-day passes are good for unlimited travel within NJ TRANSIT territory. Passes are sold at ticket offices only and are priced at a fixed fare that is the same regardless of distance traveled. Two children ages 5 through 11 may travel "free of charge" with each adult carrying a full-fare special excursion pass. Additional children ages 5 through 11, senior citizens, and passengers with disabilities may purchase discounted special excursion passes. Passes may be purchased in advance and can only be refunded prior to their validity date. They have no refund value on or after the validity date. Special excursion passes are not valid to/from Metro-North stations or on Amtrak trains.
To answer your other question, IMO the Gladstone Branch is the most scenic and interesting NJT line.
This fare option shows under the Rail section only. NJT makes a distinction between Bus, Rail and Light Rail in the Fare Options section of their web site, so you're out of luck there.
Peace,
ANDEE
No windscreens on these stations, and all safe places to wait for a train. At Trenton, you can stay in the overhead corridor that runs perpendicular to the tracks, which has several restaurants and departure boards for each track. (There are multiple tracks here)
The Morristown and the Gladstone lines will bring you memories.
-Mark
A Message From Harry Harrison:
I wanted all my radio friends on the Internet to know about the sad news in our family. My "Pretty Patti" passed away Tuesday, May 20th, one day after our twin's birthday.
Two weeks after I left CBS-FM she went into the Hospital for some tests because she didn't feel well. She was in and out of the hospital for the next two weeks and diagnosed with cancer. We took her to New York City's Memorial Sloan Kettering Hospital and they confirmed it and said nothing could be done. She was very brave and never complained and was always concerned with us, her family. We wanted to have her home with us with Hospice care. The nurses were very caring and helpful. We're still in shock and disbelief, as I'm sure other families have been in this devastating situation.
My "Pretty Patty" was a great lady, wife and mother. Every one loved her and she loved her family, her home, her gardens and her dogs. I often asked her thoughts on radio and my show and she was always "right on"! She did so much for me and our children all these years. Like all moms, she was the heart of our home.
Love and appreciate your family everyday.
They are a precious gift.
My Best,
Harry Harrison
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
I spent about 8 years in the Court of Appeals as a telejournalist and had to put the DECISIONS on air months later. With my own intimate knowledge of the judges of the Court of Appeals (and I *like* Judy Kaye) I can tell ya, straphangers are going to eat steel dust in the end. They'd have to PROVE criminal wrongdoing on the MTA's part - INCOMPETENCE in government ALWAYS slides ... the longstanding opinion of the court being "this can be corrected in the next election." :(
Sorry to say, don't get your hopes up. Straphangers sunk their teeth into a party doll here.
So this NEXT event will pretty much be the final ruling, whichever way it goes. But mindful of the COA's attitudes for well over 100 years of stable and reliable interpretation, rest assured that the appelate division will look towards "the state is ALWAYS right unless it can be PROVEN that they DELIBERATELY erred."
Appelate division DOES tend to overrule lower court decisions if they go against the state, and in the end if MTA were to lose here, they could insist that the trial be moved to the Court of CLAIMS ... this court is amusing in that you have to ask PERMISSION of the Court of Claims to even HAVE a trial. And yes, they're Paturkey appointees as well. What ARE the chances of them deciding to hear a case against an Executive Agency? Ask anyone injured in a Civil Service title who was blown off?
Bottom line, two dollah, two dollah ... unmbrella ... two dollah ...
Court of Claims DOES hear cases, but it don't hear MANY. :)
And the decision to refund all the riders who have thus far over paid by 50 cents????
We desrve a refund.
Next, the politicians are going to raise income tax by 33% without legislation and then when its thrown out in court they will simply keep the money. Excelent sceme.
Sales tax.
Tolls.
Telephone tax and surcharge.
Parking tax.
Auto Registration.
Zoo admission.
And so on.
Are you saying "the city is broke, therefore they are entitled to cheat people?"
You gave a long list of user fees—such as zoo admission—that have supposedly been enacted illegally, and without due process. I assume you have the proof of that?
We need to take a stand for due process or all is lost.
The Legislature could have given the MTA Robert Moses-like powers to do whatever it wants, but they didn't.
If the MTA prevails in court and you don't like what they have done, the remedy is to get the Legislature to reverse it or vote Pataki out (though he's probably not running for reelection). There is accountability, if the voters use it.
The assumptions underlying this question are erroneous, and it's pretty safe to say that no refund will happen.
First of all, Judge York didn't rule that anyone had overpaid; he merely said that the MTA hadn't followed the correct legal formalities. They could hold a new round of hearings and re-institute the $2.00 fare. Even Alan Hevasi, whose report spawned this furore in the first place, conceded that a fare increase was probably needed—he just questioned the accuracy of the MTA's disclosure. And lastly, the Judge whose opinion is being appealed did not order refunds. He only ordered a rollback (almost surely temporary) while the MTA repeats the public hearing process.
I suspect the MTA's argument on appeal is going to be: (A) The Judge got the law wrong; (B) Even if he got the law right, his remedy is wrong. Since almost everyone agrees that some kind of fare increase is going to be approved, it just wastes public money to re-program the equipment for a few weeks, and then do it again after the MTA Board repeats its vote.
It is almost as good as the fact that MTA is ATM backwards.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Why wasn't that corner taken down like the rest?
Because it wasn't damaged like the rest was.
Note that some below street level parts of 4 and 5 WTC east of the 1/9 also haven't been taken down.
subfan
If you notice, the photos DO show the beginnings of the new "7 WTC" building, located on the northerly perimeter, along Vesey between Greenwich and Washington Sts. Its very small and not a good successor to the former Silverstein property, all so the half-block of Greenwich between Barclay and Vesey could be restored. If my memory serves (late 1970s) this was actually a very wide spot on the pavement, where Greenwich, West Broadway and Vesey all converged. It was largely occupied by parked automobiles.
FWIW, I recommend the circle tour highly if you haven't been to Ground Zero in a while. I started from the SB N & R station at Cortlandt St., south on Church to Liberty and over the footbridge, then through the World Financial Center and Winter Garden to exit on West Street. It is possible to follow a passageway through the construction along the south side of Vesey back to Church. Some viewing angles are better than others and if you catch a contractor or PAPD eye, willing explanations.
Those of you who are native to New York and know the area have a great chance to be "Ambassadors" too, by pointing things out (especially the IRT, since its the only obvious new construction) to throngs of bemused visitors trying to divine what they are seeing from a guidebook.
Ardor can be a great tribute to those names on the framework.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Andy
I also suspect the OPTO location for the Franklin Ave shuttle will be moved closer to the Lincoln Road side.
The elevators were supposed to be open in October 2002, but you know how contractors operate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
and the biggest reason of all.
1. THAT IS A CALIFORNIAN, NOT A NEW YORKER, WORSHIPPING THAT SUBWAY LINE
1. THAT IS A CALIFORNIAN, NOT A NEW YORKER, WORSHIPPING THAT SUBWAY LINE
That is just uncalled for ;-). Anyway the title is wrong, it should be 10 reasons why the Sea Beach is known as the Slum Beach.
Fred does call our subway line, the Blighton BITCH, and I find that funny. The more name calling the better. Even Fred considers the Brighton his second favorite line even though he knows that the Sea Beach line pales in comparison to the Brighton, but won't admit to it.
Make plans now, we need a full fleet of Subtalkers converging outside the WORLD'S GREATEST ROLLER COASTER.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Wait a min, Isn't the CTA runs the subway above the ground throughout chicago metro area?
It's called the "L" or the Loop. It's not called a subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Notice, I changed the heading. In deferrence to you.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's a plus. Ride the LIRR for a while ... is that an M-1, coming in, or an M-3 ...? (yawn).
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Here my Things that I like about Sea Beach.
1. Arrive at stations and terminal on time.
2. Smooth ride between Manhattan and Queens.
3. Great speed on the 60th tube.
Well you did post that you were leaving this board.
Based on your #8 item you want to go out with a bang (every railfan window fan in here will beat up on you).
I never knew that looking out a RF window was so harmful ;-).
3. 1 seat on the "A" cars for disabled passengers and also guarded handrails on the seats.
Well back then ADA access wasn't as big but is a major improvement.
Peace,
ANDEE
The trains may have been more attractive, but school buses look exactly the same now as they always have. Why do you think I hate them so damn much?
I prefer new styling to old, but I feel that the NADIR of subway car design was reached in the 1950s and 1960s. I know that lots of people here like the Low-Vs. Why does none of these people like the R-142 as being the car that replaces the god awful cars that forced the Low-V into the scrapper?
Actually, they've evolved considerably over the years.
1931, Superior Coach body, REO chassis.
1936, Superior Coach body, Chevrolet chassis.
1936, Carpenter body, Dodge chassis (looks more like an armored car than a school bus!).
1954, Wayne body, White chassis. This is the basic body style that I remember from my youth, although the first bus I rode was a pre-war Thomas with a REO chassis that had three long, wooden benches for seats - one on either side of the bus and a third backless one running down the middle.
1973, Blue Bird body, International chassis.
2002, Thomas-built body (successor to the Perley A. Thomas Car Works of High Point, North Carolina, most famous for having built the classic New Orleans streetcars), Freightliner chassis.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Except that the 1954 bus has nice stylings. The modern buses got rid of that but kept all of the crappy aspects.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Hey, I know... but this was drifting into BusTalk territory anyway so I didn't want to overload things too badly. Besides, I'm not particularly a bus fan, I just thought that Mr. Oink was being a bit too harsh on buses, owing to his inexperience with the older units.
Anyhow, where the heck's the engine of that 2002 bus????
In the back, just like transit buses. I don't know the specs on that one but it's probably an 80 passenger unit. That particular one is in Michigan but North Carolina has experimented with them, and I'm sure many other places as well. Front-engined school buses with transverse seating and a rear emergency door grew in six passenger increments, from 30 up to 66, but almost all rear-engined units hold 80 seated passengers. Larger school buses have become the norm in most places due to laws requiring all students to be seated; back when I was growing up the buses seated 48, 54, or 60 students and were rated at 10 standees (48 or 54 seats) or 12 standees (60 seats).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
76th St.
I like the R142 and R143 BUT if I want overall beauty and class, it's a IRT Lov-V and any single digit R-class car. Even the R32's are better than the current junk we have or are getting in 2-3 years.
That's true, but cars now are the converse of old cars in more than just the effect to the car.
If a collision occured, the passengers of the new cars would be just banged up. Then in the same type of collisions, the passengers of the old cards would be smashed beyond recognition.
I won't be missing the railfan window ;-) I bought one from the MTA website and it was delivered today - it took 2 men to carry it into the house....Now the question is - where do I put it? ;-)
How the disabled passenger gets into most IRT stations is another matter... and even if he can get in, who says he'll ever get out?
--If some is halfway in the door, the door will reopen up to three times, reducing the chance of a subway dragging.
--HVAC that is almost certainly guaranteed to work (albeit IMO, it works TOO good)!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The one ray of hope for the line was that the Upper Hudson River Railroad attached documentation that advised the STB that they were interested in the trackage and a potential deal with CPR. Upper Hudson River Railroad is the operator of the tourist operation utilizing the former Adirondack Branch of the Delaware & Hudson.
--Mark
But I sure hope something can be done. I know the trip from Albany to you neck of the woods is tricky and not too fast, an 18 minute train ride would be great (but I would say any train ride is great).
Rolling stock ... NHRS and a few other locations around here have railcars (and Kingston's got SUBWAY cars) rotting in the woods. If someone COULD make for viable traction around here, there'd be no shortage of interests who might want to see their "possessions" actually TURN WHEELS ... but some Arnines would be nice nonetheless. Heh.
Reality? The trackage WILL die, the weeds and trees will overtake them, and not a wheel shall EVEr turn again on that iron. This is AMERICA, this is UPSTATE. Phuck EVERYBODY who needs some stinking damned TRAIN. Fuggem. AND their cat. :(
But the real reason why I don't see anything happening here is simply that there isn't the money or deep-pocketed interest to do anything with it ... alas, there's not enough folks around here to make a COMMUTER railroad practical. But as a museum piece or excursion line, it'd be PERFECT. And as I've said before, THIS railroad town would permit third rail operation as long as the ROW is fenced to prevent accidental contact with it.
Will these get route numbers?
Will regular displaced Q and F riders use them instead of the extended B68 and F shuttle buses?
If you are planning to go to Stillwell Ave only you can use these buses.
The buses will be making one stop only.
Surf Ave and West 10th Street
Thank You
I doubt there will be any weekend ridership when there is a torrential storm that will ruin anyone's beach day. Also, did you notice on the same ad about the W line making easy connections from the F and Q lines? It say to transfer from the Q to the W at Atlantic/Pacific, DUH! Isn't Dekalb an MUCH EASIER transfer than Atlantic/Pacific (or any station from Canal to Dekalb, since both Q and W trains make the same stops on weekends). What's your preference, same track/platform or upstairs/passageways?
HAA! They forgot their own plans, interesting :-\. I know DUH is the right word, I guess that they want the passengers to exercise their heart muscles ;-D.
Peace,
ANDEE
Beginning Saturday, May 24, and continuing on weekends and holidays to
Sunday, September 7:
FREE F Beach Bus operates between the last stop on the F, Avenue X, and the Cyclone Roller Coaster (near the boardwalk) from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. Buses run just minutes apart during peak travel hours.
FREE Q Beach Bus operates between the next to the last stop on the Q, Sheepshead Bay, and the Cyclone Roller Coaster (near the boardwalk), from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. Buses run just minutes apart during peak travel hours. Board at the front of the Q train for an easy connection to the Beach Bus at Sheepshead Bay.
(F Q subway service returns to the Stillwell Avenue station in spring 2004.)
Today we get "beach buses".
Sigh.
--Mark
It's only one summer.
Anyone know what edition that map is?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm hungry...
--Z--
Try Southwest Sauce with almost any sandwich there...YUMMY!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Peace,
ANDEE
I sent an email to the folks at Subway.com asking them about the map on their wallpaper.
If and when I get a response I will post it.
The nearest Subway to me that has a map is about a half hour drive, but the next time I'm there I'm going to give that map a once-over to see what I can figure out.
One shows newspaper articles about the 1904 opening of the IRT and a route map of Manhattan with the "KK" route on it.
The other style shows mostly BMT routes in Brooklyn with overlays of a track map of City Hall.
The map was created by the Art Department of Doctor's Associates.
It was created by taking different pictures from the archives of the New York City library and putting them together for their own wallpaper.
Did they say why? I would imagine that there were copyright issues.
Considering the age of those maps I doubt if there would have been any copyright issues.
However, Subway may be able to copyright the design of the montage
www.forgotten-ny.com
Because the company was founded by 2 dentists.
Peace,
ANDEE
From the Subway.com website:
"1965 - Fred DeLuca and Dr. Peter Buck team up to open their first submarine sandwich shop in Bridgeport, Conn. Originally called Pete’s Super Submarines, they sell 312 sandwiches the first day. Average subs cost between 49 and 69 cents. First advertising campaign is "Try one for Pete’s sake!"
1966 - Partners DeLuca and Buck form Doctor’s Associates Inc. The name is derived from Dr. Buck, who holds a Ph.D and DeLuca who hoped to make enough money in the sandwich business to pay his tuition and become a medical doctor."
For more history: http://www.subway.com/subwayroot/AboutSubway/subwayTimeline.aspx
and
http://www.subway.com/subwayroot/AboutSubway/history/subwayHistory.aspx
"1975 The chain’s flagship sandwich, the classic BMT, is first introduced. Going along with the subway transportation theme, it is named for the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit system; later it is known as Biggest, Meatiest, Tastiest. "
I guess references to the NYC Subway would get lost on a lot of people. I would not be suprised if a lot of people (including many NYers)have no idea where the routes shownn the stores wallpaper are.
As a youth in Rhode Island, I honestly thought 33 St in Manhattan was once called Rawson St.
The funny part of the whole thing is that subway is not a NY based company. It is owneded by a company called doctors associates of all things and I believe it is based in boston. No boston subway map scheme though
Milford, Connecticut.
I've always seen NYC subway wallpaper in all of the Subway stores I was in (Louisiana, Las Vegas, Florida, and California). Some of the other places I've been, I never stopped in a Subway store, so I can't say.
Also, anyone ever notice that there are also pictures and scenes from the Beach Pnumatic stuck in with the Subway stuff?
Not just in the USA - they are old NYC subway maps in London, too (though old London tube maps would probably be available by arrangement with the London Transprot Museum if they wanted them ).
And Leicester (Market St) and Birmingham (Bristol Rd, Selly Oak).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello Mr. Kelly; on 12/21/1994, a S/B #4 train was firebomed by a crude smoke device at Fulton Street. The mastermind was caught a few hours later after the blast, wasn't that a terrorist act? And what about the NYPD's efforts to stop an impending attack somewhere on the B line in Brooklyn, back in 1998? The would be terrorists were busted in a raid near Union St.
Aw, how can you knock Koch? With the possible exception of Fiorello Laguardia Koch was the best mayor we had!!! Oh wait, Laguardia got rid of the trolleys and the els, so Koch is No.1 hands up!!!
Great mayor, just lousy speaker.
All I'm saying is that Kelly isn't ignorant or trying to deceive anyone. He just spoke imprecisely.
There's always a line to register as a sex offender.
By the way, talking about Police Commissioners, here's a trivia question. Which NYC Police Commissioner eventually became President of the United States?
Peace,
ANDEE
An all expense paid rail trip from East Haven, Ct. to Short Beach Ct.
No, the rail trip is from Sprague, CT to Shore Beach, CT.
There is no Sprague, CT; the station is in East Haven and is named for Frank Sprague.
There actually is a town of Sprague in eastern Connecticut, near the Rhode Island line.
Peace,
ANDEE
There were also the FALN (Puerto Rican terrorists) bombings of Fraunces Tavern on January 24, 1975 and the simultaneous bombing of Federal Plaza, 1 Police Plaza and the Eastern District Federal Courthouse in Brooklyn on December 31, 1982.
I thought that this was still unsolved.
I suppose you might want to contact ABC about obtaining a trascript of that broadcast to see exactly what Commissioner Kelly, maybe I might be taking it out of context. You should be able to go into the ABCNEWS website to ontain details on how to get this, the date of the broadcast for your reference is Tuesday, May 27.
I like Ray Kelly but he should know that Fraunces Tavern was shot up by terrorists, and in 1920, JP Morgan building on Wall Street was hit by a terrorist bomb....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Does the TA have specs regarding the number of people intended for in non partitioned seats? Like the one down in the corner? is that for 1 or 2 or 3 people? or more? Where does the law stand on this.
This goes back to my original question about Fold-Down Seats on the new cars. They seem as though they were intended for one person but I'm trying to find out the official TA seat count so that I might avoid being arrested.
CulverEx
Does NYCTA have specifications? Maybe. But as far as the published regulation is concerned, "seat" is unspecified.
Mark
This raises another question. If the lack of definition of "seat" also applies to the contoured/partitioned seats...
Then what criteria does an officer use in detrimining weather or not the "crime" of occupying more than one "seat" has been committed?
What about resting your hand next to you on the seat?
ONE SIMLE PHRASE
use common sense. Putting one's feat up is not only disrespectful behavir but preventing another person from using the seat
the test that should be made is. If a person is using more space then his/her person requires, puts up ones feet or places bagage on seats that constitutes multiple seat occupancy.
A resonable person could say if a person wanted to occupy a seat that one put his bag on. Why not just ask that person to move his bag?
I have seen a few incidents where said person did not want to move his bag and threats and fights occured.
Plain and simple. Be couteous to other riders don't put your feet up, sleep across seats or put bagage that belongs ont he floot.
You have obviously never really been dead tired. :-)
Tom
You are beeing WAAAY too paranoid, JMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
If, as has been reported, they are writing tickets for having one's personal belongings next to him on a nearly empty train it is not paranoia. It is ridiculous to require someone to balance a brief case, several packages or a child riding free, on his lap when there is plenty of room for anyone who wants to sit.
Tom
Ya know, I agree for now. Darn Subtalk has already killed ALL of my tv watching, `cept for K.O.T.H., O.F.F. and Seinfield. And it's startin' to hurt my enjoyment of movies too. Like, I just saw MATRIX 2, and I don't know. I kept looking for the scroll bar so I could jump to the next message....This is my take on the situation.
This text-based information exchange medium is a pure entity. No fillers, no chaff, no side-tracks, no diversions. Simple, clean targeted (to the "nth" degree!) data flow, unique and in (almost) real-time. I believe it goes DIRECTLY to those "intellectual pleasure zones" in the brain. It really is like a drug.
Peace,
ANDEE
Look at that I can't even spell psycho.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
--mark
(And before anyone says it, I have looked in the archives and I can't find the thread).
But entering Brighton + subway into Google gives 13,900 hits, while entering "Sea Beach" + subway gives 495 hits.
Fred is lucky that NYCT gives more importance to the Sea Beach than the internet does.
That tell you how popular the Brighton Line is while there are VERY LITTLE references to the Sea Beach line. No wonder Brighton is THAT GOOD.
So it's like the Sea Beach express :)
Southbound, it's between Bay Parkway and Kings Highway, for the stupidest signal in the system.
Northbound, it's at 8th Avenue, to let a local go first.
I suppose the same must be true of Blackpool and Scarborough, but I visited these as a child, growing up in the North of England, and had a lot of fun on the Scarborough miniature railway (even then I was looking at the track and the points, working out where everything went). Junior Railfan in the making!
John
What is true is this:
1. The Brighton Line has a beach shuttle bus, the Sea Beach, NOT!
2. The Brighton line had signals replaced in 1990-91, BEFORE the Sea Beach had a new signal system.
3. Below Atlantic-Pacific, the Brighton Line had, or will, have every subway station renovated, except for 7th Ave. The Sea Beach line has NONE rehabbed because you can't count 36th st.
4. The Brighton Line has the best express service in the world, the Sea Beach: ZILCH.
5. The Brighton line has variety: tunnel, open cut, embankemt, and elevated. Only the Dyre Ave line can match that what the Brighton Line has.
6. The Brighton Line has the BRT plaque at Newkirk, the former T.B Ackerson Real Estate office converted to a subway station (Avenue H), great shopping on Church Ave and Kings Highway (shopping on Newkirk Ave is OK, to be honest but only if you live in the area), and passes through one of the most influential historic districts in all of Brooklyn. The Sea Beach. ?????????
7. Annoying to many, but you do have performers on the Brighton Line (those damm kids are still at it again, and I see the occasional Russian performer with a loud trumpet), what do you have on the Sea Beach?
Just the facts, man.
8. The Brighton Line has had consistent express service in Brooklyn except in 1986-88 [we had skip stop service so it wasn't entirely local], 1995 & 1999 due to track work BUT we had express service south of Kings Highway. Also in Manhattan one of our lines always was express; at least after Post Chrystie, the N since 1986 has been local besides the brief period in 1990.
9. The Brighton Line always had at least one line post-Chrystie ALWAYS run over the Manhattan bridge.
10. THE BRIGHTON LINE ALWAYS HAD 24 HOUR DIRECT ACCESS TO MIDTOWN MANHATTAN WHETHER BY BRIDGE OR BY TUNNEL. THE SEA BEACH DOES NOT HAVE 24 HOUR ACCESS TO MANHATTAN AT THIS TIME, NOR IT HAD 24/7 ACESS PRIOR TO THE N AND R TERMINAL SWITCH IN 1987.
It's not the Sea Beach lines' fault that the current operational practices don't come anywhere NEAR maximizing what the line could offer in the way of service.
1. Drive west three miles, turn right, and head north for an additional four miles.
2. Drive north for only five miles.
From Kings Highway, riding the Sea Beach is like riding along the legs of a right triangle. The Brighton line, with only that slight jog east to go to Flatbush Avenue, is more like the hypotenuse.
Brighton goes over a bridge.
My vote goes to Brighton.
Scarborough is pretty nice too, though it's too far away from anywhere to become a commuter town. I was there a couple of weeks ago for a conference - with the complex train journey to get there being a bonus!
But then, I'm a bit of a fan of slightly down-at-heel English seaside towns.
Except it still maintains its reputation for dirty weekends.
Clapham Junction?!?!?! [Looks horrified.] Well, I suppose it helps if you want to get to Kingston-upon-Thames or something. Actually, they've probably done that so people can get to Waterloo for Eurostar.
What I don't get is why they don't add a stop at Gatwick Airport and merge the Gatwick and Brighton Expresses into one train every 15 minutes - now THAT would be service!!!
The Sea Beach never duplicate the Brighton Line, we have expresses zooming past the local stops on weekdays !! heh !
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-32's debuted on the Brighton Line when new. Hence the nickname "Brightliners".
Bill "Newkirk"
One of a kind in a sense that all stations are one of a kind. No variety, no quality, no piazzaz.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hew was a big lose when he left NY1. NY1 is a good starting job but it does not pay very well as compared to other media outlets.
WCBS did not use hime well.
It is a tough jib being a spokesperson for a high profile govenment agency such as the MTA. Every two-bit politician looks to take shots at the MTA and it's public spokesperson
I like Paul. I wrote tons of email to NY1 to bring back a dedicated subways reporter
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Governor chose to force the MTA to keep fares down and cover up the resulting deficits, for his own political reasons. Other politicos have chosen to make the MTA a whipping boy, for their own reasons.
Fawning praise is the enemy of improvement, and I've found plenty to criticize at the TA, but this is but this is out of hand.
I've dealt with and analyzed many public agencies in New York State. Can you name one that does a better job? This is a success story, compared with the way it was, and not just because of additional money.
But yeah, they're QUITE typical, even with this problem, of all OTHER state agencies. All chiefs, too few abused indians ... bear in mind though that all this progress occurred during RICH economic times. Now we'll get to see how well it all works in LEAN times ...
For some strange reason MTA hasn't put it online.
(Tramiel)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On what PDFs? I just tried the downtown map and the Manhattan bus map and those can be printed. And the map of the entire system is two GIFs put together, so they can be printed also.
That must be your PDA's problem and not the MTA's doing. I right click in IE and do Save Target As and all is well. They do make the files read-only, so if you already have downloaded one, you can't overwrite it with a new one without first changing the setting, or else giving it a different name.
Perhaps your PDA doesn't allow read-only files?
In the fall of 2001 I printed a subway map from a PDF on the web site. On the color laser in the office it printed as well as an official copy. I still have it. In fact, I was disappointed when the PDF's were converted to GIF's; I'd like to print a current map. I had it scaled quite nicely to fit a single sheet of paper in portait mode.
Good luck.
And how come they're never announced in advance... yannow like if someone wanted to join in?
BTW - there is no such thing as a disgarded QuickCard. PATH turnstiles are designed to keep the card after the last ride is deducted. The card you found was either a defective one or someone accidentally dropped it and there are still rides on it. Best to check that out before the card expires.
(STILL waiting on muh refund for a $10 blank Metrocard from 2 weeks south)..
(sue me! Chapter 11 gave us the image and factoid!! I jest can't put it down!!)
- lower ceiling to reduce the cavernous look of the station
- use the brown/green Grecian style mosiac currently adorning the stations at Broad, Fulton and Canal Sts.
2-Fix utilities and brighter lights
3-Remove layup track and middle platform
4-Better Mosaiac
Is one right to say that the decay started in 1962 (when the northernmost platform was destroyed to make room for a larger Brooklyn Bridge station on the Lex), and went full-blast when the Chrystie St. connection was completed?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
R-32
Because asbestos removal is a costly task and raises the cost of car scrapping. That's why the Redbirds are being sunk in the ocean. Also, cars with asbestos were scrapped the old fashioned way until the asbestos laws were tightened.
Bill "Newkirk"
avid
With all the debt the MTA is building up, they are far too ready to scrap and buy new, such as with the 80 car Kawasaki R142 add-on, rather than mothball or cherrypick. Budd car bodies are good for 50 years.
My guess is that the reopening will be in September or October.
Of course anything could happen.
I've lost count HOW MANY times this Q has been asked during Museum closure.
Which do you think will open first -- the museum, the new L alignment, or the SAS?
--Mark
I've lost count How many times this Q has been answered?
No.
Probably won't know routes either till WEEK OF trip, brah....
Also, with this year possibly being the last year that R36WFs and R33WFs run on the 7, is there a chance that the summer 10-car trains would be run for the last time this summer?
I still hate them though.
avid
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
R38 C Train Local #4079
R38 A Train Express #4123
Orange is just so, last year, so passé, as a shade. 2003 is Tangerine!
LOL
With apologies to all hairdressers and interior decorators!
There's still plaid and paisley.
-Robert King
The next day, there are two pirate ships on the horizon. Again, all the sailors rush to their position, but the captain stands calmly at the bow and says, "Bring me my red shirt." Battle ensues, but both ships are boarded and sunk.
The young sailor asks one of the old hands, "Why does he do that?" The old sailor says, "So that if he is wounded in battle, we don't see his blood, and we keep our courage and continue fighting."
The next morning there are ten pirate ships in front of them. The captain looks at them, thinks for a moment, and orders, "Bring me my brown pants."
I guess I'm gonna join the ERA/NY Div, since I've heard they offer some pretty good railroad-related literature. I just haven't had a chance to complete/send in the registration, and every time I find the time I find I don't have the money at the moment. When I do have the money, I don't have the time or periodically forget about it. Bad luck, I guess.
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry for the poor-quality photos; the train caught me by surprise. It was signed up consistently for a 2, with proper destination settings. This was on September 10, 2002.
I've never seen an R-62 2 train, and I'd be moderately surprised to learn that one has run (since the 80's, when the R-62's ran briefly on the 2 and 7). Traditionally the 2 has borrowed cars from the 5 when necessary, but after the 2 gave up its last Redbird, it began borrowing from the 3 instead. I believe that arrangement only lasted a short time; as early as mid-October, I rode a Redbird 2 train (borrowed from the 5) from Atlantic to 241st. Now, of course, it's very common for the 2 to borrow cars from the 5. So I don't think the 2 borrows from the 3 as a matter of course anymore.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I never understood why a strip map was needed. But, with the 142s, having it built in to the electronics, it's kind of hard to get rid of them now. Yes, they're nice for the occasional rider, but are they really worth the cost and problems that they cause?
Anyway, I'll bet that once the IRT stabilizes the stip map problem will go away.
You can tell some of the cars the (7) got recently still have their blue (Lenox) yard sticker and still have the (3) strip map up, I guess Corona wanted to run their 'new' cars ASAP.
The older signs used on the R40, 42, 44 and 46s when these cars first came out had a much better (although not perfect) way of handling it.
On the outside the sign had the route with the destinations on either side. On the inside it had a strip map for the entire route from terminal to terminal. For some reason later versions of these signs dropped the strip map on the inside.
Hopefully future design advancement will allow the trains to have LCD displays which can display the strip maps. With the right programming they can have any route set up and do the "blinking" station like the new cars can do.
I said LCDs!
Or indeed just have two stripmaps for the entire IRT: Flushing and the rest. If that's a bit excessive, give the 1 and 6 their own stripmaps.
R26/28-Olive green, brown, tartar red, white, Redbird
R27/30-Olive green, brown, tartar red, white, Redbird
R29-Olive green, broen, tartar red, white, Redbird
R33/36-Olive green, red, white, dark green, Redbird
R33WF/R36WF-light blue[WF COLORS], white, Redbird
The above cars were never brown. The R-29's were never olive green.
"R33/36-Olive green, red, white, dark green, Redbird"
Mainline R-33/36's were never olive green.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also...some of the models "skipped" a color scheme because the condition of the original paint, although ugly and discolored, didn't warrant a repaint job.
For instance: the older R-12, R-14, R-15, R-16, and R-17 received the bright red treatment in the early 60s, while the R-21, R-22, R-26, and R-28 did not. R-21s, R-22s, R-26, and R-28s went straight from their "Pullman green" liveries to the silver-and-blue-stripe scheme. R-29, R-33 (mainline) and R-36 (mainline) were delivered from the factory painted bright red, and were subsequently given the silver and blue treatment.
For some reason, the BMT's R-27 and R-30 models got painted red, even though they were the same age as the R-26 and R-28 models on the IRT.
I was 12 years old when I took that photo with my Dad's old 35mm Kodak; it was on the Lehigh Valley RR in northeastern Pennsylvania. We were in the vicinity of Wilkes-Barre where my Dad was born.
R-32
avid
R-32
This would have just been seen as an egotistical infatuation were it not for the fact the MTA let preventive maintenance go straight into the toilet at the same time the were painting everything from the R-7s to the R-36s the same silver and blue paint scheme (and don't even talk about the interior car colors -- someone had to have gotten a kickback on that decision).
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The only real repaint job during the TA era was on the R-10s, which were done up to resemble the Worlds Fair fleet. I didn't have a problem with that, since the TA came up with a good looking design, and I really didn't have a problem with the silver and blue paint scheme, the first time I saw it chug into Grand Central on an R-17 train ... until I walked inside and saw what they had done to the interior. It almost cried out "GRAFFITI ME," which the city's yutes did with a vengance over the next 13 years, which led to the repeated cyles of paint-spraypaint-repaint during the 1970s while the actual mechanics of the trains were left to rot in favor of more coatings of silver and blue, to fool the public into thinking the system was being taken care of properly.
BMT Broadway line
BMT Broadway line
Did you notice the new 28th Street name tablets? They're in the same style as the old ones but they're quite easy to tell apart. They went up within the past month.
Did you notice the new 28th Street name tablets? They're in the same style as the old ones but they're quite easy to tell apart. They went up within the past month.
Hmmm, I was just through there last week, and didn't notice them. Although I have to admit I didn't really look for them. I'll have to check them out soon...unless someone posts some photos here of them before I get over there....
After a few minutes another train appeared on the other side of the platform, stopped, honked twice and kept going, as it headed away I could see that it was car 101, and it was SINGLE! It was really weird to see a Patco car running completely solo, all the lights were on but the side signs were blank and the end signs were set at 'Special.' It took off down the line and from the hill that Lindenwold sits in I was able to follow it nearly down to Ashland or Woodcrest, it threw off some massive 3rd rail arcs, lighting up the woods on either side of the tracks.
When the T/O finally arrived to take the train out I asked him what that had been about. He said that car 101 was just coming out of the shops, since it's then that PATCO starts going to 40 minute headways, so there's time to squeeze the testing cars in. He said that a few other cars were also due out for testing tonight, and that the next round of cars would be going in (hopefully 112, 261+262, and 269+270).
Sorry if it sounds like a pretty ho-hum sighting, I thought it was really cool at the time, plus now 101 will be back out there with it's messed up doors. I think 124 and 125 are on a train, it'd be cool if 101 and 102 are also put on the same train.
Also, on last thing, the same T/O said that a train died last night at 11:30, that it took him 2 hours to go 16th Locust to Lindenwold, anyone around here hear about it?
From today Boston Globe
In Brookline, a bridge divides
From todays Boston Globe
Sorry for the bad news. There is some good news, one more last trips thought the S turns.
Robert
I try to get to work by 4:00pm since I live in South NJ, this way I have time to get ready for my day ahead. We can meet up under the new steal work for the new tower (if you come you will see what I mean). It is in frount of the old Dispature Windows, they put it up last weekend in one day I was told.
Maybe I will see someone from hear?
Robert
With all these delays, one fear I have is that I won't get to ride or photograph R-42's on the new alignment.
If you want I my frist trip out of 8th AVe is at 17:48, if this is better for you?
Robert
I live in Canarsie and i would like to meet you.
Please advise where we can meet
Thank You
Robert
Look forward to meeting you
See you there.
Robert
Thanks for the great time.
It was very nice to meet some wonderful fellow Bus and Sub Talkers
Thanks again
Barry
Robert, thanks for a nice round-trip run.
Robert
--Mark
I try to get to work by 4:00pm since I live in South NJ, this way I have time to get ready for my day ahead. We can meet up under the new steal work for the new tower (if you come you will see what I mean). It is in frount of the old Dispature Windows, they put it up last weekend in one day I was told.
Maybe I will see someone from hear?
Robert
If nothing else, he could explain the history of the split tracks at Atlantic Ave. and the CTBC testing that's supposed to be helped by straightening out the line.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
What you don't know is that there's a team of interns standing at Sutter Ave with a video camera (hidden of course) and they'll film everyone running from the station to the bus and bring it back to the office for laughs.
"$500M Terrorist destruction of El structure"
and
"$1B Rebuilding of El structure after terrorist attack."
Of course that section will never be rebuilt.
Because if we were to build it again, it would be a terrorist target.
Better yet, there will be an international design competition for a new structure, be it elevated, subway, or whatever. Peter Eisenman's entry will simply be a sidewalk, because the voids are more important than the solids. The winning design will be a "living structure" with fauna growing all over it, have glass ties to allow light to the street below, and it will soar 100 feet above street level. Of course, since Van Sinderen Ave will be sacred ground, it will built on Rockaway Ave instead. The TA will value-engineer it down to a bus route.
Ya remember my tale...
2 weeks ago local retailer sells me an (expired) April 4th Fun Pass
nice and tightly wrapped clean in a (new?) $10 PPR Metrocard wrapper...
it doesn't feed me a key to the system, and I had to buy a SECOND
card at the Terminal.... get envelope from S/A to mail-in to TA.
Check.
It's been 2 weeks... is there a way to check on the status of my
MC Refund Request? This "we'll determine the problem and notify you by phone" gagga ain't got me nothing... I've not heard a peep from 370.
Is there a way to check on the status of my MC Refund Request?
~Token Loving Boi
Peace,
ANDEE
I turned in a card (in person) on 5/15 and I've yet to hear anything. I assume the folks who process these requests are busier than usual with all the invalidated unlimiteds being mailed in for refunds.
Peace,
ANDEE
Every economic problem not attributable to the 9/11 attacks can be traced to the Clinton administration. His administration presided over the false "tech boom" wich collapsed a good year before GW Bush took over as president. His SEC presided over the Enron fiasco.
You can't blame Bush for problems that existed before he was elected.
Dewd ... I *LIKE* you and all, but you're letting partisanship get in the way. You can CHECK the voting records, they're available to ANYONE to examine, I am NOT a democrap. Check it out. I *used to be* a republican, but Honest AL, Paturkey and others wiped John McCain off the ballot in New York and force me onto the DOLE. That SMOKED my butt. Gooombye, phuckuveryymuch GOP. That whole STALINIST move put me onto a permanent mission of REGIME change as far as the GOP goes. :(
That all said, as to your argument since I don't want to stray FURTHER off topic on politics (D'Amato's fair game, R160's and formation of the MTA under Rottenfeller, that damned GOP LIBERAL SWINE) ... but as to your arguments, read 'em and weep. I have NO respect for EITHER the replutocrats or the wimpy democan'ts ... a pox on *BOTH* their houses. Ptoo ...
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=500299
It's ALL about MONEY. And with Bubba, WE HAD SOME. Now Halliburton and Bechtel are getting OUR money. No offense, bro ... like I said, I was even a republican CANDIDATE! Missed the election by a Maxwell Smart fraction. They just elected a GREEN PARTY mayor in New Paltz! Yow.
But as much as it chokes me up, PLEASE give us back BUBBA! At least we didn't have the sheriff knocking on our door for the rent. :(
Both guys want to put an end to the political nonsense and get this city and state back on track.
Bloomberg has shown alot of guts closing down firehouses that no longer needed
Reducing trash pickup in SI, parts of brooklyn and queens to once a week. Of people recycle, once a week trash pickup is more then sufficient in areas of one and two faimily homes.
The money has to be directed into area where it is needed such as eduacation so that New York City residents can get the skills needed to work at the many high paying manhattan jobs. 2/3 of which go to out of towners
While our local politicains fight to protect jobs that are not needed
I digress ... GALISANO was an exception, he was to logic what Mark GREEN or Andrew Cuomo was to the democrats ... what was called in the Air Force, "swamp gas" ... Galisano was a nutcake to rival PEROT. Hell, even Jesse VENTURA made more sense. :(
No, the *LAST* thing this country (or the city) needs is MORE gasbags ... what we NEED is a less RESTRICTIVE government in NYC ... RUDY made all the TALENT blow town ... as famed celebrity photographer (NOT paparazzi) Annie Leibowitz said, "New York is INTERESTING ... with this Rudy moron, it's no longer INTERESTING, so phuck New York." Same went for many OTHER "CREATIVE" industries ...
"CREATIVE" people is what New York made its nut on ... attracting TALENT from all OVER the world to a literal MECCA of ingenuity, creative efforts, arts, theatre and poetry. Rudy and his goose steppers DROVE THEM OUT ... same for all of the other "lifestyles" that CREATIVE people went for. They split for the LEFT coast, where pecadillos that harmed no one were tolerated for the "better good" of the "industry" ... New York turned into DULLTOWN under Rudy, and even WORSE under Doomberg ... the LAST thing you want to do is drive away the kind of talent that DEMANDS New York prices to PAY for. :)
Hell ... even TELEVISION'S been driven outta here. And THAT brought the TOURISTAS ... No, for NEW YORK to survive, we need FUN CITY once again, but let's not do the "crime in the streets" bit again - that's no better for drawing an audience than what we have now. New York is supposed to be an EXCITING, THRIVING place. THAT is what attracted the rubes ... New York as DOOMtown (can't smoke a joint, can't smoke a BUTT) *just* don't appeal to folks who WORK HARD and PLAY HARD. If you can't dance, you ain't no fun. I don't want any PART in your revolution. :)
It was because New York was no longer *FUN* ... if I had to put up with the push-push-push hectic lifestyle, the LEAST the city could provide was some FUN! Nope ... the mid-70's were literally "deteriorarata" ... "Gerry Ford to NYC - DROP DEAD." ANd instead of FIGHTING the nonsense, NYC got INTO the chit ... nope, if I can't dance, I don't want to be a part of your revolution. Moved upstate. Where people who are PEACEFUL can have fun ... and where people who CAN'T keep the peace get *SHOT* ... never regretted the move for an instant. Didn't REALIZE there were places like Woodstock, Cairo and others where you could *DO* your art and be APPRECIATED instead of busted, hassled, ripped off, and push-push-pushed. :)
Alas, then came REAGAN ... everything turned into Limbaughland. NO FUN. :(
What foamers don't REALIZE is that there's PLENTY of FOAMERETTES too! Only PROBLEM is they'd like you to take you rnose off the GLASS long enough to SHARE nose with THEM! Sometimes, the best foaming experience is what all those damned SPAMMERS be talking about. 'word. Heh. And no damned BLUE PILLS needed! UNLESS you're a republican. (grin - Bob DOLE, 'nuff said HERE too)
So Clinton lied and screwed around on his wife, that`s better than the pious bullshit George W is selling to this country now. Not bad for an asshole who stole the election by rendering the vote of poor minority and elderly voters useless by his GOP bitches in Florida.
Sorry for putting it this way, but if you BOTHERED to post a reply, you could have at least SAID something. :(
Some point
1) The GOP insisted that we must balance the budget every year when clintons in office. Well since Bush is in office they just aproved a record spening package that will borrow trillion of dollars
2)The GOP spend hundreds of millions digging into clintons entire life and all they could find was he cheated on his wife. If you spent the same money inestigating most members of conress, you would find that they cheated on thier wife
The one area where both parties have faile dsthis country is in the area of education. We spend far to little on education especially in science and mathamatics
India over the last 20 years turned a impoverished not as well educated population into a techno savy workforce of the 21th century.
Instead of spending more on edication to being out poplualtion up to speed. We issue more and more 811b visa's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't call someone a lair before you read all the facts andnot rely on the media who do not care about the factsd to form an opinion.
If you looks at the entire picture of MTA operations.
The fare is still lower for most riders then it was 10 years ago
Service is much improved
No grafetti
yes service could be delivered cheaper and more often if they would have upgraded to newer technology that the rest of the world is currently using
but all in all the mta and it's work force have done an OK job
the whole 2 broadway fiasco was under E virgil conways watch.
I happen to thing kalikow is doing an OK job
the had the guts to stand uo to the TWu on tooken booth closings and presented a new fare package that favored frequent users rather then cave in to the straphangers idiots who wanted a lower base fare(which frequent riders don't pay anyway) and lower discounts for requent riders
That $510 is there. Always was. Hevesi merely redefined existing funds to create the appearance of an immediate surplus.
The problem is that Kalikow has no credibility. Most people think he's a sleaze, based on past business dealings that have nothing to do with the transit authority. Not that I think commercial real estate barons are the wrong people to be on the MTA board. They are the right people -- who else has a long term access that has a long term connection to the transit system?
I've really begun to wonder about this whole MTA thing. It's just a smokescreen to cover up who is really in charge. The Governor appoints the majority of the board. Any significant change in the capital plan has to be approved by the legislature. Pataki, Bruno, and Silver run the MTA.
On the other hand, having an MTA Board to stuff with politcal types has allowed the TA to have actual transit professionals as Presidents -- Gunn, Reuter, etc. None of those guys are political, just career professionals who care about transit. Maybe the politics have to go somewhere.
Real estate developers are the perfect perople to run the MTA. They are acutely aware of how good public transit enhances real estae values olus much of what the MTA is is a real estate concern. If the properly monitized thuer real estate they would be able to generate more non transit reveue
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=136787&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=5/23/2003 (free view, no subscription needed)
In the above article, the NYS BRIDGE Authority Exec Director is FIRED for spending money on actual LEGITIMATE issues, but violating Paturkey's "I RUN THIS AGENCY AND SCROO THE LAW" mentality. Just so folks understand, the "trip to Florida" mentioned in the article but not explained is something the Canal folks do EVERY year to attend a boat show as an EXHIBITOR to bring boat owners into the NYS Canal system where they pay HEFTY tolls and fill the public coffers. THAT is what Paturkey was honked about without any VALID reason ...
1) What does this tell all the other teenage kids out there about the value of college and/or other professions?
2) This will lead to some pretty unrealistic expectations amongst the young kids playing b-ball today.
3) The President of the United States doesn't make this much dough! Where are our priorities!
Not to mention, of course, that this kid is now more successful at 18 than I could EVER be in FOUR or FIVE lifetimes!
I'll just be in the back room, banging my head into a wall...
Maybe instead you should be upset at why people are so ridiculously stupid that they would consider a cheap shoe made for pennies using third world slave labor is somehow better because of an endorsement contract.
If I was offered $90 million by a company to do so, I would tout the wonderful flavor and health benefits of drinking sulfuric acid.
If I was a basketball player, sulfuric acid sales would skyrocket!
John
I'm more bothered by the fact that my taxes are going up and services are being cut so that public employees can retire in their 40s (police, firefighters) and mid to late 50s with an inflation-adjusted pensions. Note -- I am not in the pension plan, because the present value of the pension for those joining after 1995 is zero. If I don't want to pay for this kid's $90 million, I don't have to, and if enough people don't, those who gave it to him will go broke. And at least he has to play basketball for it.
I'm also bothered by the CEOs and top executives who issued stock to themeselves in the boom, issued deceiving financial reports, sold the stock, and stuck it in tax shelters outside the country. You could argue that I didn't have to invest in companies that did this, but the fact is they all did, so what choice did I have?
Don't blame the lucky. Blame the greedy.
What is even sadder is that the people who did that are not in jail.
Apart from one person from Arthur Anderson who was made to do the “perp walk”, and who is probably out now on bail, can anyone tell me of a single person who went to prison for these frauds?
John
You can blame the legislators who agreed to these absurd giveaways. Or, more accurately, blame the voters who voted for these legislators.
Such marketing is a fraud committed against those in our society least able to afford it and just like the high cost of drugs, it drives many into less than legal livelyhoods. The fact that such people are effective defrauding marketing tools only emphasizes how much the people of this country is just sheep, easily mesmorized by that flashy bit of foil and ready to be fleeced. It's the same reason that we have Big Brother Bush in offive right now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The bet is LeBron is going to be as good as all of the hype, and that kids will have his poster on the wall, will go to the fast food restaurants he goes to, buy the batteries he buys, and go to the movie he stars in with Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck sometime in hte near future. If that works out, the $90 million will be well worth it, because all they'll have to do is sell about 1 million "Air LeBrons" at $175 a piece to make back their contract and marketing costs. Even if he tanks, then Nike will probably still sell a half million or so sneakers over the summer and in the early fall, before kids figure out he's a stiff, which would translate into only a small loss on hte deal.
Of course, as a Syracuse alum, I'm still waiting for Reebock or Adidas to debut their Carmello Anthony sneakers in the marketplace (and since he's going to the Pistons in all probablity, he's likely to have a bigger impact on next year's playoffs than LeBron will with the Cadavers).
Given the fact that the Pistons are seemingly averaging about 10 points a game in their current series with the Nets, I would think pairing Anthony's scoring with Ben Wallace's rebounding would be what they need. But it may just be they're wary of taking an "old guy" like Carmello, and will leave him for the Nuggets to draft with the No. 3 pick.
What if the $90 million offer came from the National Pork Producers Board? I'm sure you'd draw the line somewhere.
1) That's capitalism for you. If they can make buck from it, it therefore is good!
2)Lebron James has much more ability at his profession than the president has at his.
Those more socially conscious might ask about how all much the third world labor producing these shoes will receive if their efforts.
2) This will lead to some pretty unrealistic expectations amongst the young kids playing b-ball today.
Yeah your right and this may lead to less basketball players going to college.
3) The President of the United States doesn't make this much dough! Where are our priorities!
IMO I think its good he got the endorsements, I see no problem with him getting $90M I mean the kid is nice simple as that.
But another SubTalker is certainly right about one thing: For 90 million, I'd go out and sell sulfuric acid as a dietary supplement if that's what they wanted me to do...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When did they get the big pay raise?
Tom
I'll never watch the "games" this boy will play in. I'll never purchase the sneakers this boy will be pushing. I see guys with those flashy skips, I gotta laugh my ass off. As if the sneaker makes the man!
That's how Nike wins'em over, they use peer pressure as their ally. Sneakers don't make the man, but life is different when you're a KID. These corporations know this about our collective psyche, and they DO use us as the sheep we are. These companies will pay one kid an obscene figure and use the image of his "success" at 18 to sell, sell, sell to inner cuty kids whose options in life may already be somewhat limited by our society.
Why can't they make their shoes here? Because we have child labor laws, that's why.
Child labor laws are wrong. Even if you don't have children working, then the kind of working conditions that Nike uses for their shoes are illegal anyway.
Sounds like you're more concerned with what your children's peers will think of YOU than anything else. Children who know that they are loved at home can deal with the teasing... after all, it's the kids who DON'T know love at home who are doing it. And our children know the difference, believe me. I've raised four - all of them in sensible shoes, all of them without the latest overpriced, fleeting fads in clothing or toys - and they've turned out to be a lot better adjusted than most of their peers. What they HAVE had is the love of parents who were willing to say "NO", who taught them (just as the good people of Whoville taught the Grinch) that the most important things in life don't come from a store but rather from the heart. So give 'em a hug, a good book, and sensible shoes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good for you! ... and all your Amish neighbors too. :-)
Tom
Well unfrortunately, your considered a outcast if you don't get the "right gear", i.e. getting a pair of $150 like Jordans & Air Max sneakers. Yes the costs of MAKING the shoes itself is significantly lower than the manufacturing price then they jack it up so the example you provided of $20 to make, $150 to sell would earn the company a profit of 750% for each pair sold making the companies so profitable. And most of the time the children; in the far East in particular; get paid only 30-50¢s an hour and can't take a pair home for themselves, sad. The reason they can't do the manufacturing in America is because they know that the United States won't allow them to pay low wages like I mentioned above like it is in a outside country and also has to do with the fact that they save money from all sorts of taxes.
Now not watching any of Lebron's games simply because he got a $90M contract is a bit ludicrous, you don't have to buy the sneakers and I agree with your comment with "as if the sneakers make the man", its quite funny actually :-).
Took the red line from Downtown Crossing (staying just a few blocks from there; can't believe the upscale hotel I'm staying at used to be in the heart of the Combat Zone!)to Braintree. Why the huge station at JFK/UMass? I realize that's where the Braintree and Ashmont line split but why not have them split just past the station so a much smaller station could have been buit? Or is there that much traffic at JFK/UMass?
On the A end of the motor cars, to the left of the T/O compartment (where the RFW seat used to be on CTA L cars) there is a large metal case about a foot or so in width that rises from the floor up to within a few feet from the roof, about the width of the window. It's there on the trailer cars as well. It looks like some sort of relay box or equipment box. What is it? I didn't observe these cases in Orange or Blue line cars.
Yesterday I rode the Red from Downtown Crossing to Park, where I transferred to a Green line B car outbound to Boston College. Departing Park Street, the outermost track looked rusty and unused. It paralleled our track until we approached Boylston, where it swung wide to the right to go around a platform. The track was behind a chain link fence erected on the edge of the platform so the track was definately OOS as far as revenue service was concerned.
Departing Boylston our track rose, the outer track dropped, and after a few more feet our track swung right to head into Arlington. What is/was this outer track used for? Storage or a yard lead? I vaguely remember it in revenue service 30 odd years ago but don't recall its function.
Packard's Corner...isn't that where the A line (Watertown) used to split off from the B? I never saw revenue cars on that line but I remember quite clearly seeing the wire and rail in place. I know the tracks were used for equipment moves to the shop in Watertown after revenue service ended, but I never saw that. Damn shame they took up the track and tore down the wire.
The Hynes Convention Center stop - didn't that used to be called the Newbury Street station?
Last night after dinner in Cambridge I headed out to the airport to pick up my wife who came into town for the weekend. Rode the Red from Porter Square back to Downtown Crossing, transferred to an Orange line car one stop up to State, and then a Blue line car to the airport where I grabbed the shuttle bus to the terminal. I forgot how efficient the T can be. I was expecting the trip to take a total of 90 minutes and it took 50. Had to cool my heels in the airport for a while! I love how each line has a different make of car. Kinda like the old(er) days in NY where you had different cars on each division and even between the IND and IRT.
And last...is there anyone here who doesn't hate the Big Dig?
Had a few hours to kill Tuesday afternoon so I walked down to South Station. Very heavy police presence (I think Monday or Tuesdsay was the day the threat level was raised to Orange) but no National Guard. Still, I was able to walk out to the platform area, although not down the the length of the trains because you had to display a ticket to get that far. The book stall in the heart of the Station used to carry some books on the railroads serving the region but I didn't see any this time.
Today we'll ride the Orange to the Blue and visit the Aquarium. Sunday, the Red to the Green and over to Science Park.
2. That's the ASC (automatic speed control) unit. The cars were retrofitted, so that's why they're not integral on the 1500-1700 series cars (they are integrated on teh 1800 series cars).
3. The outer westbound track from Park to Boylston leads to a storage track for work equipment (sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not). After that, the track dipping down leads to the old Tremont Street line (long abandoned). On the opposite site, the T stores their historic PCC and Type-7 cars (the Type-7 is leased from Seashore for $1/year).
4. Packard's corner is where the A/Watertown line branched out down Brighton Avenue.
5. Hynes Convention Center used to be Massachusetts Ave.
6. There are a lot of people who don't "hate" the big dig. It has helped traffic flow in Boston (even though only a portion of it is open). Whether or not it was worth $14.6b is a very different question.
7. You certainly can walk down the entire platform at South Station. Just pick a track that has an MBTA commuter train, and not an Amtrak train. Only platforms with Amtrak trains are restricted to ticketed passengers only.
Don't forget to ride the Ashmont-Mattapan extension of the Red Line to experience the WWII-vintage PCCs.
Wait a second. Seashore already owns a Type 7? How did they pull this off?
Frank Hicks
It wouldn't surprise me if they did, but the car in question is a Type 5 (#5734).
Todd, when was the line abandoned? Where did this line end...was it at Tremont or did it go further outbound? If at Tremont, is the old station still extant or if not, how far does the line currently extend? Does the T ever run fan trips on this trackage? Any other abandoned lines where the T runs fan trips? I saw a sharp loop at Park Street on the Green line that looped an inbound train into an outbound train. How often is this used?
Where the Red line travels on the surface is the third rail covered by a board of some sort like on the NYCTA lines or is it exposed like in the T subways? If the latter, how do they keep the ice and snow off of it in the winter?
Also curious as to why there are such distinct differences between the Orange and Red line cars. Are the two lines that much different in age that tunnel clearance varied so much that different car bodies were necessary? Are the cars similar mechanically?
Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance for your answers.
And even older City Point line.
The Orange line has ATO to State Street station where going towards Oak Grove they switch to manual operation with wayside siginals and trips.
The Blue Line has manual operation 100% with trips and wayside siginals.
The Red Line 100% ATO (automatic train operation)
The Green Line 100% manual operation wayside signals in the central subway and on riverside line. Boston College, Clevland Circle, and Heath St use traffic lights and flow of traffic on the Heath st line. NO emergency stopping if you go through a RED light. Just cameras at Double Red Lights so they can see the operator who ran the double red
Sorry I can't do links
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/23/national/23CEME.html?tntemail1
These NIMBYs are concerned about the placement of useless bones.
I take it you intend to be cremated when your time comes?
No wait - I can do better:
"These NIMBYs are concerned about the placement of useless bones."
Speaking from experience?
I intend to donate my entire body to science. At least that way it'll be useful instead of taking up valuable space that can be used for the living and it won't contribute to air pollution.
You think the pieces won't be cremated when they're done studying them? What do you think happens to medical school cadavers?
Yes, I realize that goes against what I previously said, but the real story is I don't care.
100 foot R.O.W. for tracks? Even if they include some Amtrak?
The MTA figures if the digging turned up some bones, the site work would immediately be halted for archeoligical/historical purposes. So rather than deal with even the hint of a future "grave threat" from preservationalists (or NIMBYs just seeking any excuse to stop the project), they put the burial site fears down as a negative towards using the Nassau St. routing, as opposed to the Water Street option.
It's unfortunite that as manahattan expanded north, many former grave sites or all races and religiosns have been built on
On the contrary, it is quite fortunate that life took precedence. Too bad it can't be like that anymore.
On the other hand, with the Katy Freeway widening project in Houston, a number of businesses are going to be torn down on one side of the freeway to keep from using cemetary land on the other side.
Graves aren't for the dead, they're for the living, so the real question here is whether or not aggrevied have any extra right just because their property contains a dead body. After all, if their not-dead-yet grandmother's house was in the path, there'd be some objection but I'm willing to bet it would still get torn down and the grandmother moved. Why is moving her AFTER she's dead any worse? If anything, moving her while she's alive should be worse.
I agree. As I said in another on-topic thread, I see nothing wrong with going with the cheaper option for East Side Access, and using the savings to run a connection between the Harlem/New Haven lines and Penn Station via a route that would, in part, use a new tunnel under Woodlawn Cemetary. Who cares that there are bodies above the trains, with 30 feet of rock between them?
(The route would branch off in the yard north of Woodlawn, bridge over the Bronx River, Bronx River Parkway and Webster Ave, tunnel under Woodlawn Cemetary (up on a high rock ridge), run at grade along the Major Deegan in VanCortlandt Park, then use the Putnam Divison to get to the Hudson Line, with a flyover in Marble Hill and another near the Spuytil Duyvil Bridge).
Anyway we leave Lex Ave on the N and an annoucment comes over the PA (I don't remember word for word):
"As you know the TA is currently hiring Train Operators, if you would like an application, please come up front for one".
I guess this guy was an off the street T/O and is trying to "pay back" some of the grief he has experienced.
I didn't walk up front to find out, maybe I should have but my application is already in.
I feel for the off the street folks ... they had NO idea of what they were getting into when they got appointed, and I've always had a problem with my TWU brothers and sisters taking it out on THEM for what their own union and their employer allowed to happen. Granted, the title was ALWAYS a promotional - you had to serve your time as a conductor first. In my case that was a mere couple of months owing to the large number of retirements when I came on board in 1970. But I got a snootful of that nonsense for "not earning my handles" with ten plus years as a conductor prior.
That's WHY I feel for these folks. Can't say I blame them if that's what's going on given the attitudes of senior members. It ain't THEIR fault they got hired as open competitives. :(
It's not who you know, but who you blow that determines that, "merit system" is a farce. Every time I passed a signal with "AK" on it, I *knew* that it wasn't a reminder about "authorized key-by" ... :)
The same thing happens to folks who become Supervisors ("Conditions Officers"), so other than money, there's no real incentive to move up. Plus, folks who stay where they are and work OT--which is ALWAYS available--can wind up earning more than their bosses. Go figure. Anyway, I'll bet the same kind of tomfoolery goes on at the TA, too.
I GOT better though. Heh.
Now they want to close firehouses, butr the wild thing is, they have very quietly eliminated 38 ambulance tours and 17 Lt. tours, all through attrition. Some system!
T/O at WTC. Comes in fast... surprise! No lineup. Brakes too late. Chow! Hits the ball. A few days on the platform does the trick.
Another take a wrong lineup at 57 St/6th Ave, which is actually no big deal, 34 needs to cross the train back over. Except there's a GO running and the T/O takes the lineup into the GO area. I saw this T/O back on the road relatively quickly.
O/C T/O operating a S/B #4 hit a signal South of Mosholu Pway. The T/O recharged the train and tryed to move but the C/R immediately pulled the Emergency Brake and called Control Center. The Train was discharged at Bedford PK but the T/O got retraining and back on the road.
O/C T/O on a S/B # 1 banged the Homeball on TK 1 North of 96 Street and all he had to do was call Control at New Lots and that was the end of it. However I know a Probmotional who did the same thing and got 10 Day in the street.
With so many problems though among the O/C's, it DOES suggest that schoolcar wasn't quite ready for them either - there's things you learn on the road as a conductor that are useful of course, but motoring IS another specialty entirely. Strikes me as though some of the training material wasn't up to full brakepipe there ... THAT might be part of the reason why some walked perhaps, that it was charged to schoolcar somehow. Or at least the O/C test itself wasn't trying very hard to weed out morons.
In fact about one a month.
If you go into a GO area or can't get back you are almost always screwed. The TSS/CR hates you. There are 2 TSS that HATE OTS and will try to take you OOS at the drop of a hat.
Things that help. The Supt has had too many incidents so they now cover for everyone. You are 'connected' a few OC T/O's have friends and relatives here and that never hurts. Good education helps to, you would not believe how many GO's and Bulletins are poorly written. One wrong line up used the fact that according to the GO ALL trains were in the GO area. The diagram was accurate but the explanation, the signals named, etc were all wrong, that saved him. Another aspect is what you do not know on at least two wrong routes the TSS was on board yacking away with those stupid quizzes they used to give. They did not report the fact that the TSS was in the cab and poof the incident goes away. I myself find them very distracting. I would add that the guys that were C/R got treated much better by the crew office than I did.
Even 6688's levers were fun to operate.
OK, next time, I hand you the set of church keys. You open da leaf, I've decided to become a EURObeaver, "you Americans, your coffee is *SO* weak" ... "we'll get you there ... EVENTUALLY." YOU give me the buzz-buzz, and (patriotic moment) ... "let's roll." Agggh.
The outbound is nice, but I noticed that the RETURN trip requires more SKILL, but if you "spot the homeball" on the return trip by POSTING your territory, you get a few inches MORE on the RETURN trip. Just gotta know the territory to DO it, but then again, that's why I had that deadpan while POSTING my territory. Motormen (and wimmens too, I'm merely glorifying the TITLE when it was worth *MONEY*) GOT to know the territory. ONLY way you can shoot the yellows PROPERLY is on you 504th trip. And my "deadpan" was because I didn't KNOW the railroad yet ... :)
And yeah, I'd proudly "slap'em" for the chickies ON da payroll too. Got me MANY a cab blessing. That and "what's your sign? Mine is 205th Street." Heh.
MANY a cab blessing, but most guys are too SHY to show their fondness for a "customer" ... lemme put it THIS way "MTA, giving it to you YOUR way." Nah, better not. Heh. Gives an AWFUL, sinking feeling to the term "pulling handles." Nah, better not go there at ALL.
Now that we no longer have the section break, the inbound run is quite zippy :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lou didn't say that.
If you read it, You're viewing an alternative realty.
Or maybe you've missed the lack of the word "boy" following Nancy.
BTW there is no "Nancy" train. Officially the only name for N is "November". Same thing for the "Mikey". Its "Mary."
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
To NYCT's credit, all(?) of the part-time booths that were slated for closure would have been converted to full-time unattended. Too bad that plan didn't come to pass (with a few points of exception); it would have improved off-peak access to the system.
It probably will now.
I agree there are problems with quite a lot of them. This thing yesterday was exceptional, I have never seen someone actually stuck.
Still I think that when they are well placed and a compliment to the system (not a replacement) they can be usefull and effective.
At my stop they enhance service by adding an extra exit at the far end of the platform. It is the TA spoils the service by closing the main Farebooth at night leaving the egg slicer as the only exit option. Much to the dismay of people with bikes, strollers, walkers and to those who ride at hours when there are a lot of passengers trying to fit through only a few slicers.
There is also the problem of people trying to enter when a train has let out clashing with the throngs trying to exit.
I think you mean HEET.
Exit only ones are HXTs.
Still, some of us here call them egg slicers.
For reason, I don't think of them as egg slicers. In fact, I've never heard of them until now.
The egg (peeled, hard boiled) lies in an egg-shaped cradle. An attached structure consisting of a frame and stiff wires about 1/8 inch apart is swung over the egg and then pressed down onto the egg, slicing it into 1/8 inch wide slices.
The wires in the top fit through the slots in the base of the egg slicer, just like the rotating bars on a HEET fit between the stationary bars. Picture the egg slice on its side, and imagine the top can swing through the base instead of being stopped by it.
The connection from the NB J to the SB L isn't affected.
The former connection from the NB L to the SB J was severed a year or two ago. If you ride the L today, you can see where the new connection will cross paths with the soon-to-be-abandoned NB through track. Other than that intersection, the new connection is already in place. I don't know when it's scheduled to be completed -- I'd guess in about a year, maybe less.
Here's why.
Sick S**t!!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would imagine that the camera would have created quite a ruckus even if it had been identified as such from the beginning.
http://www.govtech.net/magazine/story.phtml?id=36413
1. New Coney Island Beach bus shuttles on the F and Q lines, BUT NOT THE N LINE.
2. LIRR #7 shuttle service in Queens
3. #5 train leaves from 149th st/GC (R62's on the #5 line)
4. E train runs on 63rd st (F) Line, nights via. R line to Whitehall
5. Last chances to ride the old L line track between Sutter and Atlantic.
6. On Tuesday or earlier: New elevators at Prospect Park/BMT now open, allowing full ADA access to the station.
Anything to make the Sea Beach miserable right ;-) but hey its the truth. Shows how low the ridership to Coney Island is on the N.
The N is the least used of the Southern Brooklyn lines so it is rerouted to the tunnel making it a slow local and thus making it the least desired line to Coney Island.
As the least desired line to Coney Island, it's the first one cut back and the last one restored when the terminal closes for renovation. Then it becomes a shuttle because there's no capacity for it and the W on weekends into Manhattan.
Poor N :-(
Peace,
ANDEE
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Time has not changed the people of Queens' minds either. They would much rather crowd aboard the R32 E rather than take a ride on the much roomier R46 V. Even during the rush hours.
All in all it was quite an uneventful day. And that's just the way I like it!
Each merge/diverge point is controlled by a tower, which in turn is controlled by a Line Superintendent. The train dispatchers and tower operators report to the Line Superintendent, and thus are loyal to his/her line at the expense of all others in the area. The C and V get the short end of the stick because their Line Superintendents don't control any towers.
What station was it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's what the map at http://www.nycsubway.org/us/nywb/nywb1-02.html says.
Thanks to David Greenberger for pointing out the moron who uploaded the thumbnails but forgot the fullsize images. :) Unfortunately Mozilla doesn't clean out its cache too well and it appeared to work.
BMT Broadway line
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Which are some of the best and worst?
And does anyone know about the Kings Highway station on the F line from say 2:45 to 3:15?
High Schoolers are much better by comparison.
You're becoming an ageist on us?
You get the pikter.
(Of course) I was at the railfan window that day (pre-transverse)
and couldn't help but notice the pandemonium in the second car...
if ONLY i had a CAMERA that moment... purely notorious scene.
Monkeys taketh over the second car on the 1 train that day.
Not the best word to use.
www.forgotten-ny.com
GOOD lookin' out, Kev... but I was not talking about the PEOPLE..
I was talking more about the BEHAVIOR... but good catch no less.
:s
We halt.
Disturbance in the 4th car says C/R (talking to Control--wanting to know
why we stopped).
Control Tower calls up the radio asking us to continue to 96...
We continue... flashing lights towards the station ahead... the
T/O picks up speed as we enter the curve-into the station.. honks
when we get next to the (tower at north end?) room... make full
station stop...
POLICE emerge from the stairs... enter the 4th car... take out about
30 or 40 teeners with them... two of which are locked in a fistfight..
Signal the C/R to close up and continue... off we go as more police
come onto the platform with 'cuffs and 'sticks drawn...
T/O reports they were whisked away to precinct by the time we get to 79st.
Dont you mean dishonorable mention, Chris?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Of course I'm not serious. It's too bad you are.
Anyone know?
-Stef
Were the 2 and 3 running through and stopping in both directions?
"This contract was repeatedly changed with regard to these bonding requirements," Brodsky said. He stopped short of saying D'Amato's close relationship with key officials helped the lobbying effort.
D'Amato helped Gov. Pataki defeat Mario Cuomo in 1994 and has offices in a Park Ave. building owned by MTA chairman Peter Kalikow.
MTA Executive Director Katherine Lapp said Alstom was not immediately required to post the bond - traditionally 25% of the contract amount - because it would have put an undue financial burden on the company during tough economic times.
Alstom later had to post 5% to 10% of the contract amount in the form of a bond, Brodsky later conceded.
He has introduced legislation to reduce what he has portrayed as influence-peddling involving the MTA and Pataki's political allies.
A spokesman for D'Amato declined comment yesterday on the subway car contract, noting it is a confidential matter that cannot be discussed without his client's permission.
Alstom is scheduled to provide 660 subway cars by 2006, with one of its former competitors, Japanese-based Kawasaki Rail Car, working as a subcontractor.
Originally published on May 23, 2003
The 80-car R-142S is a separate supplemental acquisition for the IRT, straight from Kawasaki. Deliveries will be made in 2003.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I wonder how the falling dollar affect this? If Alstom is producing most of the parts in Europe, they are going to get killed, because they will be paid in depreciated dollars vs. Euros. But the assembly is here, of course, and Kawasaki may be providing many of the parts. The Yen hasn't risen as much as the Euro against the dollar.
And my agency got nuked ANYWAY. :(
Good old HONEST AL ... and he's STILL scrooing us all! Where's Ralph CASO when you need a scapegoat? Bombardier. :)
Ain't too far from the truth, is it now?
That little bastid is the one politician that I have the MOST contempt for ... and I've got a LONG list. :)
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Yesturday's Newsday had an article on the security of the subway. On the front is a redbird at "Grand Central Terminal", so the #7 actually terminates at GC not Times Sq like we're lead to believe.
Also has a PC C/R "standing watch" at Grand Central.
And finally, the two fired officials (Anemone & Casale) stating the the MTA is unprepared. Which may in fact be true, but when will the media realize that disgruntled former employees, particularly executives are not the proper source for information?
Just another shining example of how some jouralists have no clue.
And an example of why some would-be journalists abandon the idea of pursuing that profession. My older son, after a brief stint as a reporter at two small-town newspapers (while in college), decided journalism wasn't for him because he didn't have time to verify the facts before deadline; he's gone back to school to pursue a degree in history instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The colleges I attended for Journalism taught me a mindframe to which
we can SAFELY "assume" the remainder of a story based on little-few
known details in a manner which states a claim WITHOUT directly placing
blame on the would-be guilty-parties... because we all know if you
place blame on an armadillo, they'll bark back.
It is nice to know that he found it immoral to present the wrong information, even if on a deadline. He should see himself as having done the public a service.
Besides, I know people who did complete schooling in the area of journalism and finding it hard to get work.
we can't even keep firehouses open and get a new class of police officers in to beef up the dwindling ranks...
nevermind osama or saddam, where is Bush?
The preposed firehouse closings have been on the drawing boards for 20 years. they are located in area where thier is another firehouse very close by.
As for subway security, unmonitored platforms, stairways and tunnels are not good.
That is why the whole station agent provide scurity argument is bunk. We need more CCTV camera's anyway monitored by security experts combined with platform microphones and other sensors to monitor what's going on in stations. The money wasted on station agents at secoundary entrances could be used to give the subway a major security technology upgrade
Where do you propose have these security experts stationed? At central monitoring stations they're as useless as having no one there at all. Response time would still suck. But hey, we spent all that money for high tech equipment and "security experts", right?
Even though they can't go to the platform, if someone is sick in front of a booth an S/A would be able to provide some assistance to a degree. Or at least make sure that person really needs the assistance.
Or how about the money wasted when someone has a bad cold and just plops down on a bench, looks unconscious but is really feely so shitty they don't want to move till the train comes. The security expert says "Oh sh!t that person needs assistance", and calls EMS. Money well spent when they arrive to treat an emergency cold.
Virtually every skyscraper uses a central monitoring of fire alarms, CCTV cameras in public areas of the building etc. and roving security personnel in communication with the central monitoring position and the ability to call the fire department or police department if a problem cannot be controlled locally. The same type of central monitoring of quite a few stations could also be done. Keeping a station agent in each station for "security" would be similar to having a security person on every floor of a skyscraper to take care of any problem which might occur on that floor without communication with other security people.
This does not mean there should be no station agents, but they should be more customer information people than security people, and limited to stations where information is needed such as tourist areas, complex stations, and places where the are unusual routing because of a GO.
Tom
Your arguments are also suitable for requiring a C/R in every car rather than MUDC. At least 90% of station area is outside the view of an S/A in a booth. Once you pass the booth, the human presence is gone, and it is up to you to face the knife wielding muggers hiding behind every pillar on the station platform by yourself. :-)
Tom
The 80-car R-142S is a separate supplemental acquisition for the IRT, straight from Kawasaki. Deliveries will be made in 2003.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I wonder how the falling dollar affect this? If Alstom is producing most of the parts in Europe, they are going to get killed, because they will be paid in depreciated dollars vs. Euros. But the assembly is here, of course, and Kawasaki may be providing many of the parts. The Yen hasn't risen as much as the Euro against the dollar.
Now my point is this: What's M, V and C multiplied together?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
It's rather OT, but given the enormity of the day, it's understandable.
419496, however, is a strong contender.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree. I think the 500,000 thing was lame. It's not like I've ever done anything like that in the past...
IRT SMEE-Grand Central Shuttle platforms, Track #1
IND Arnie-Chambers St/BMT J line (most likely the end tracks since the 2 center tracks are currently used by J trains on weekends
This information is printed on the ticket when you receive them.
Runs Weekday only; Brighton Beach to 145th Street (middays); Brighton Beach to Bedford Park Blvd (rush)
Replaces in Bklyn-Brighton Exp
Runs over Manhattan Bridge to 6th Avenue
Runs express Brighton Beach to Columbus Circle
No change of trains needed at Herald Square
(D) Train
Runs all times; Coney Island to Norwood-205th
Replaces (W) in Bklyn
Runs over Manhattan Bridge to 6th Avenue
Runs express between 36th/Brooklyn and 145th/Manhattan
No change of trains needed at Herald Sq.
(N) Train
Runs Coney Island to Astoria-Ditmars (86th Gravesend until 2004/2005)
Runs over Manhattan Bridge to Broadway
Runs express between 59th/Brooklyn and 34th/Manhattan
Stops at 49th Street to serve Rockefeller Ctr.
Operates weekends via. Manhattan Bridge; making local stops between Canal and Ditmars
Late Night runs via Montague Street; all stops
(Q) Train
Runs Coney Island to 57th Street/7th Avenue
Runs over Manhattan Bridge to Broadway
Express stops in Manhattan; Local in Brooklyn
Train
Discontinued; replaced by (B) in Brooklyn and (N) in Manhattan
(W) Train
Weekdays Only; Whitehall Street to Ditmars Blvd
All stops
Replaced by (D) in Bklyn
(R) Train
Runs Bay Ridge to Forest Hills
Increased rush hour service - Brooklyn & Manhattan
Late night: Bay Ridge to 36th/Brooklyn
(M) Train
No change; Bay Pkwy Rush Hour Service
Middays; Middle Village to Chambers INSTEAD of 9th Avenue
Evenings; Middle Village to Myrtle Avenue INSTEAD of Bay Parkway
So it looks like the Q as a Brighton express is history. I wonder why they are making these big changes, I guess they find more riders on the Brighton express need 6th ave instead of Broadway. And of course the West end with all its riders to/from eastern Chinatown will be happy to have Grand street back.
This is pretty big news. And the N will be back on the bridge and be express like it should be, instead of the rat tunnel. I wonder what equipment the B will use though. If its still R68's, I better enjoy the Brighton express experience from the railfan window while I can. If it's still Slants, I can still get a railfan window ride through the 6th ave dash (man I miss that dash).
And the W finally gets the punishment it deserves, banishment to being a weekday local only!
Because both sides of the Manhattan Bridge will be open for trains for (basically) the first time since 1982.
Those &*@$%! 3 months in 1990. I just really started to become a railfan around 1988, and got really interested in the "abandoned" bridge platform at Canal. (although I did ride through it as a kid in the 70's). I was all excited just after winter break started from college in 1990, and had the time to ride the N train (the N was the service during that brief time). I rode the J out to Canal, was all excited to finally see trains in that station again, and ride it when I saw the signs:
"N service at this platform suspended indefinitely."
I then left all sad, and wondered what happened (I figured it would just be a few weeks). That night on the news they said that there were problems with the bridge and it would be a loooooooonnnng time till trains run through there again. I got even more depressed....and had to wait till the W ran through there.....a long wait indeed.
I thought it was 1986 for the subways, but what did they do from 1982, roadwork?
This plan looks very similar. Are there any differences? What is its source? Is it any more official?
The hearing is going to be at LIU in June. (It is hearing season: also SAS, West Side 7, Fulton Transit Center, and T-21 projects.) The media and community groups got notice of this a few weeks ago. The signs should be going up soon. It probably only showed up on mta.info when they posted the hearing notice, but it was "official" as soon as TA officials went on the record to confirm the leaked plan.
No offense, but this isn't news. Not that it is not worth discussing.
The MTA hearing notice gives a clear and unambiguous statement of the plan, from the horse's mouth, and to my mind that makes it the definitive plan. The hearing notice does not mention the Q or R trains, so presumably they will continue along the same routes at the same times as now. It points out that on weekdays the N train, although running express on Broadway, will stop at 49th Street, which is a local stop.
The SubTalk leak from a liquid lunch became the subject of much SubTalk debate and speculation.
The newspaper reports that I saw were not very thorough, but they said that the R train would have a more frequent service, something not mentioned in the MTA hearing notice.
The draft recommendation, posted on http://www.nycrail.com/bmt/2004_service_plan.htm, is mostly unchanged, but I did find one minor discrepancy. The draft showed the R train night shuttle running only from 36th Street to 95th Street, and not serving Pacific Street which it currently does. The draft had a map that showed the D and N trains by-passing DeKalb Avenue. I believe it is physically impossible for a Fourth Avenue express to stop at DeKalb Avenue, so that goes without saying in the hearing notice.
It is not. The N does it now.
If the express tracks have no platform at DeKalb, then the N and W must use the local tracks. The detailed track diagram shows a switch just north of Pacific Street, and I think the N and W must use that switch. If all Fourth Avenue trains (M, N, R and W) use the local tracks between Pacific and DeKalb, that's quite a squeeze at rush hours.
My guess is that with more frequent R trains it may no longer be possible to squeeze all Fourth Avenue trains onto that stretch of local track at busy times. Besides by keeping express trains on express tracks, they can simplify the operation. Hence N and D will bypass DeKalb, as shown on the draft map.
Whatever the explanation may be, the MTA web site should at least say which trains will stop at DeKalb and at what times.
"On weekends, N would operate along the same route in Brooklyn, over the Manhattan Bridge, but local on the Broadway line."
So weekend N is still express in Brooklyn, since they specifically said the N in Manhattan operates differently, but said it's the same in Brooklyn.
"D would replace W in Brooklyn, running from Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue, along the West End line, express along the Fourth Avenue line, across the Manhattan Bridge, express along the Sixth Avenue and Central Park West lines to 145th Street, then along the Concourse line to Norwood-205th Street. D would operate local in Brooklyn during late nights."
Strongly implies D skips Dekalb the same hours the W currently skips Dekalb.
What I've read shows that the D will run local in Brooklyn at nights, meaning that it will only stop at DeKalb at nights, not weekends.
If the D does not stop at DeKalb during weekends, how do Brighton riders get to 6th Avenue? Should they have to walk 3 o 4 blocks to transfer at Atlantic to Pacific?
Plan has to have D stopping DeKalb when B is not running.
It's called Herald Square. People use it now.
And it's nothing near 3 or 4 blocks. Pacific Street is the next street immediately after Atlantic.
Why would he or she need to get to West 4th Street? Do the classes take place within the fare control of the station?
And where is it we catch the train to get there? :-)
Tom
That is done so passengers who go to the station openings and stand around expecting a train won't think it is such a long wait for the trains once the line opens. :-)
Tom
A "0 minute delay" is currently in effect on the Red Line as a result.
I got an e-mail from Metro eAlerts, that is how I found out.
I say disused because these express tracks NEVER saw any passenger service.
The entire complex is essentially a hodge podge of modifications made during and after initial construction.
I think it would be better to send it to Whitehall, more connections with other lines, but I don't know if they can do that with the N & R running.
Also worthwhile thing to note during these E reroutings, the E continues on the F line 2nd Ave, not to Ground Zero (Formerly WTC station.)
The service advisory PDF file says reroute is north of W4. That means WTC, not 2nd Ave.
Imagine we don't have the Second Avenue. What happens when we need to take tracks out of service to replace the signals on the Lex?
Wasn't the Lex out of service for several days after the Union Square wreck?
I wasn't working in the city at the time, but no doubt the situation was quite chaotic.
I consider 7 blocks (BMT) and 10 blocks quite a bit longer.
One simply comes up with a method of replacing the signals that does not require the line to be totally shut down. Building an entire line to cut costs for maintenance is not very cost effective. :-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. With this GO, the E is operating off its regular route from Roosevelt all the way to the south terminal, with only one stop (W4) in common with its regular route. The E is overlapping the F all the way from Briarwood-Van Wyck to 2nd Avenue. It would be a lot less confusing to suspend E service and to extend the R to Jamaica Center (using some E crews). In fact, that's what was done for similar GO's in 2001. Why the change?
It is not neccessary to increase the TPH on the F just to comp for the E, unless these Fs turn at 2nd Ave...and while we're at it, why not call these special F's ... hmmm... E's? And send them to Jamaica Center! That's basically what it boils down to. The difference is that people don't have to transfer again from the R to the F in Queens to get the express.
But I say extending the Q is better than the rerouted E. With this E there is worse confusion because they think they'll get to 8th Ave. They may as well call it a V or an F squared, because at least they won't be deceived. Everybody in Queens would know the Q will take them to Broadway, and will not be deceived. People in Manhattan would have TWO options (Bway & 6th Ave) and know not to walk to 8th for Queens service. Those who do happen to end up on 8th trying to get Queens can change at TSQ or W4.
How is it unacceptable? The Queens Boulevard line isn't overcrowded on weekends -- I rarely even have to stand.
Don't forget that the line had only three weekend services (E, F, R) until December 16, 2001, when the G was added to the mix. I rarely had to stand back then, either. And when the equivalent GO happened then, only the F and R ran. The only complaints I recall reading here at the time were that the F often ran local between 21st and Roosevelt.
It is not neccessary to increase the TPH on the F just to comp for the E, unless these Fs turn at 2nd Ave...and while we're at it, why not call these special F's ... hmmm... E's?
Because the E runs on 53rd Street and on 8th Avenue. Sending E's on 6th Avenue creates unnecessary confusion.
But I say extending the Q is better than the rerouted E.
Anything's better than the rerouted E.
But why send Broadway trains via 63rd when 60th is available and is a more useful routing, with better connections at Lex? Actually, that might not be a bad idea: run the Q via 60th to Jamaica Center as a Queens express, and keep the R normal. But I still don't think it's necessary -- the F, G, and R can easily handle the load, and the transfer from local to express is not too much for Jamaica Center passengers to handle on an occasional weekend (if they choose not to sit out the local).
I'm looking forward to next Sunday. No R north of 57th, no G north of Court Square. Presumably the E will run local. Why not run the R via 63rd (and turn the Q at 42nd)? The W is running through.
R passengers are instructed to transfer at 42nd to the E.
You might as well buy me lunch because NYCT screwed you in thinking the E trains were running normal from LL West 4th st to WTC. The E trains were signed for 2nd Avenue, the C/R's were announcing "E train to 2nd Ave" and the E trains were running to 2nd Ave.
You have been had by NYCT, time to put a stop of this fraudulent nonsense.
Those two little words and their forced return to our everyday vernacular very nearly sum up everything that is currently wrong domestically with this country. People just want to open their heads up and let the media dump the thought of the day in their heads, and the media is happy to oblige. Heck the 'Sound Byte President' even keeps his thoughts to an absolute minimum during speaches, to make the editing of news stories relating to him easier (that or else Cheney is afraid that if he lets Georgie have too much rope he might go telling too much :/). The 'Dumbing Down of America' has swept into the middle class baby boomers, and it's handmaidens are catch-phrases like 'Lets Roll,' and 'Ground Zero,' and the extremely poor example set by our president, himself the index case of Dumbing Down-ism (the new SARS). There's still time for people to regain their upper brain functions, but such phrases have got to return to their original meanings, 'Lets Roll' to something where rotational kinematics will be involved, and 'Ground Zero' to something involving a high yield explosive material, not a building. The last one I won't touch, I'm headed for Cuba already, and it won't be via Mexico or Canada. :(
Returning to the subject: Has the MTA changed the signs on the station? Have they updated the maps? Have they changed the car signs? If the answer to any of these is yes, then by all means call it that idiotic catch-phrase all you want, but if the answer to all three is no, then lets call it what the MTA wants. Now if, when they build the new building on the WTC site, they call it Ground Zero or some derivative thereof, by all means call WTC station on the E 'Ground Zero' all you like.
I personally would like to see the site renamed WTC when rebuilding is completed. "Ground Zero" to me sounds like there's nothing there. There most definitely is something there: the spirits of those who died, and of those who died trying to save lives. The spirit is there, too, of our response agencies, EMS, Police and Fire. Their heroism made possible the greatest rescue in history.
I think the WTC designator should be used, if only for the sake of continuity. I hope we as a society have not forgotten the importance of building back up and carrying on, even in the face of great adversity.
I believe it was devised by the media to attract attention.
I believe it was devised by the media to attract attention. <<<
My memory of the first usage was in discussing damage levels after the atomic explosions in Japan, discussing the devastation and survival rate 1000 yards from ground zero, etc.
Tom
I guess they need the "of Evil" part to distinguish it from the last axis, you know, the one with HITLER in it.
Evildoers is in there two, I almost want to add Weapons of Mass Destruction, just for the way it's been bandied about lately.
Also, the media has watered the phrase 'Hero' down to absolute meaninglessness, smothering a smoldering cigarette butt with your foot now qualifies you for Hero statuse. I'd say that it's another sign that Russia is heading for democrasy, we're heading for totalitarinism, how long until 'Hero of the Homeland' becomes a regular appellation?
I was just thinking, perhaps the first R-1/9 special will cover BMT Trackage while the 2nd Special will go to the IND? Strictly speculation, but food for thought...
-Stef
I have tickets #8 and #54 for the 2nd IRT Special, and Ticket #68 for the 2nd IND/BMT Special.
FYI, those tickets #54 and #68 were sent to me earlier this week. Ticket #8 was ordered at the end of April.
Get with it man, and order those tickets now!!!
Regards,
Stef
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Stef
It looks like I'll be ordering a ticket for the 3rd Time!!!!
I'm making history here as I have a friend accompanying me on the trip.
-Stef
Robert
-Stef
But if three of them work, a trailer won't hurt a bit. Back in the 70's we were LUCKY if half the cars had motors ... and they made it to the terminal most of the time despite any shortcomings. I doubt they'll be as finicky as the D types, blowing fuses and slipping wheels and such. Wish I could afford to BE there. :(
Have butt plug, will travel, eh?:)
I know I wish I could be there. June 28-29 is a moot point, anyway - I'll be across the pond then.
Nah, as much as CONDUCTOR was real, I only did it to move UP FRONT. After BEING UMD, I just can't be a "monkey in the middle" ... no offense to anyone IN the TWu craft, but I *earned* my handles, but got SCROOD. I *left* the Holy Ronan Empire HOLDING the title of "MOTORMAN" ... maybe I wasn't WORTHY, but I GOT appointed to it. :(
Kind of like Jim Lovell when he was asked by Ron Howard if he'd like to appear in Apollo 13 as the Iwo Jima admiral. Lovell agreed, but said, "I retired as a captain; I will remain a captain." He dug out his old captain's uniform for the movie.
-Stef
-Stef
They could use it to guilt us into donating money to restore it. Either that, or they want to give an authentic 1970s R-9 riding experience :).
-Stef
Is it still in the 1960s R10 scheme?
-Stef
8-) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Cmon brahs, David has done PLENTY for us already..
If I were going... I'd bring tags.
This would be a good time for someone else to volunteer.
Also need a rough estimate of how many people (including myself) are attending all of the MOD trips combined.
David Pirmann writes:
I haven't gotten around to it yet.
This would be a good time for someone else to volunteer.
Result:
Ye must not ass-u-me, brah.
:)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-dave
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
We could just print our own and write our names in.
--Mark
Chuck Greene
Keep me posted, and thanks for printing them out.
6/7 = I will not be there. Please print out your own name tag as you wish.
6/8 = I will be there. I will bring with me printed name tags for everyone who will be on the 6/8 trip. It will just have your handle already filled in. I went to Staples just now and didn't see any cheap plastic badge holders, so you are on your own with that. If you can't findone around your office, I suggest just scotch taping the name tag to your shirt or jacket. If you think that will be the case with you, email me if you will need more than one copy of your name tag for later trips. I will try to bring a roll of tape with me.
6/28 = if you went on 6/8 you will have the name tag I gave you. If you didn't then you are on your own.
6/29 = I will print out new name tags for those people who were not on the 6/8 trip. See the rest of the details under 6/8.
The blank name tag is available for you here: http://www.geocities.com/yellowbird429/mod.html
I am really looking forward to meeting all of you. As much as I like the railfan window, I don't plan on spending much time at it on the trip. So when I'm not taking photos, I want to be meeting people. I think that meeting you in real life will make for a more pleasent online forum experience.
Email me if you have any questions.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Unfortunately, as of now, I will not be attending any of the MOD trips. But to add to what you said, I agree completely. SubTalk has changed a lot for me since meeting some of the people here. It puts a face behind the handles here, and it takes away the total annonymousness of the whole thing. I think people that have met others here are a lot more respectful to each other, and less likely to involve themselves in a flame war with people they have met.
Not to get on this again, but this is one of the many things I liked about Peggy's tours. Not only did it add to our knowledge, it also was a chance to meet other SubTalkers. I have met so many SubTalkers on the Eastern Division tour, and the Livonia El tour, and now I can actually picture the person talking when they write a message here, and may respect what they say a bit more (not that I ever disrespected what others say, but I can't explain it, it's just different actually knowing some SubTalkers).
I guess we will all have to organize a few "SubTalk Field Trips" during the course of the year so we can pick up the pieces left by the loss of Peggy's tours. It might not be the same thing, but I guess it's the best we can do.
Is anyone going on the "informal" remnant of the original tour mentioned in post #506712?
My experience with such trips is that unless you're very agressive, you won't even get into the first car, let alone within sight of the railfan window.
Don't misunderstand, that doesn't deter me at all from enjoying such trips. I'll be there.
That's exactly why I said I won't be spending much time up there. I don't care to fight for it. I'd rather be looking at the side windows to see the faces of the people on the platform as we go by. That will be priceless. Hopefully I can even get a few photos of it.
Good, one less person to fight. I think we've already met, so I'll just stay there at the front (until the train changes ends and I look like a fool).
I can be that guy :) Ok, I won't make you a name tag as you already have one. I think I saw it on you up at Branford.
John
What's an MOD trip?
Upcoming Events page.
Remember to turn idiot mode off, brah.
And my agency got nuked ANYWAY. :(
Good old HONEST AL ... and he's STILL scrooing us all! Where's Ralph CASO when you need a scapegoat? Bombardier. :)
Ain't too far from the truth, is it now?
That little bastid is the one politician that I have the MOST contempt for ... and I've got a LONG list. :)
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
R44 A Train Express #5448
R44 A Train Express #5321
Maybe so for the M-1's, but the M-3's are gonna be around for a while.
Bill "Newkirk"
Btw, did they take out the railfones? When pictures of the first set were posted online back in november it had one, but I havent seen one on any of the sets I've ridden, which has been a few.
I also thought that the doors were quite slow. It could be the result of the single leaf design, but I don't think so.
1) It is built or designed by the Budd Company
2) It has a Railfan View.
The M-7's offer neither. My only solice is that the M-7 replacements should come out just before my retirement so at least I still have hope.
On top of that, the MTA gave into union whining about not having a huge cab, and to really screw things up, plced the bathroom in the center of the train car where it blocks your views of seating and breaks up what was one of the best seatingt/door designs in the industry. And to top it off, they gave it that same useless chatty cathy ystem the C-3s have, which hardly ever gets the announcements right and annoys the hell out of everyone anyway.
The LIRR says they were designed with commuter input, but besides being new and not smelly and rotting, there's not much good I've heard from regular commuters.
It's sad that after 30 years of advances in technology, etc, the M-7 is what it is, because it could have and should have been a LOT better.
I've not noticed longer than 6 car consists yet. I have hunch they're power hogs. Which meand their flaunted accelertion will go out the window when longer trains start running an popping substations (hell the M-3s couldn't maintain schedule origionally either)...
This 6 car/Brooklyn restriction indicates to me they don't have a whole lot of confidence in these things and they are sending the M-1's off to Mexico too fast. Of course, they sent the hundreds of MP54's off to Naparona before the M-1's got debugged. Their insititutional memories have about 8K.
I don't see why they couldn't just reproduce M-3's, DC and all, upward compatible with what they have. Giving the LIRR something new is not a good idea.
Anyway, I think the M-7 should have retained the tried and proven M1/3 body (perhaps with a few updates and revisions), and simply gotten a modern truck and propulsion system. AC traction or not, backward compatability could be retained (though I don't know how useful this really is - after all, most 1's and 3's will be gone in another few years). In any case, the old body design works and has been proven, and by making the M-7 the weight of the M-1 and AC traction, with an HP bump, significantly higher performance would have been possible (3.0 mph/s to 60 or 80 mph would have been nice) without any worry of blowing up the power system.
I suspect they're still playing with the M-7's propulsion systems, I swear they're still getting a bit quieter. I suspect though that the acceleration will inevitably drop to the pathetic M-1/3 levels with time, though. which is sad because the LIRR is to damm low in lots of places, partly due to sloppy schedules and partly because the current MU fleet can't get out of it's own way.
M-3's aren't going anywhere. They are 17 yaers old and will get a GOH and are projected to last 40 years. The 120 of the newest 150 GE M-1's (LIRR calls "better M-1s'" (as quoted by Prendergast a few yaers ago in the newspaper) were supposed to get a GOH as well until the LIRR got more option order beyond the 674 M-7s to ~800.
They couldn't make the M-7 as light as the M-1 because of FRA collision post regs. That's why the M-3's are 5 tons heavier and ride different, but overall better, than the M-1. The M-7's would have to have been somewhat heavier yet, but not another 20,000 lbs worth.
The inability of the M-1 to accelerate faster is because of how the LIRR modified them. They are very much the same car mechanically as the PATCO car, and look how they perform.
Wheelchair ramps are on board each car for this very purpose.
Mark
I have had years of practice at the fine artform of side window photography, sometimes at speeds up to 120 mph on the NEC. However, compared to RFW shots, side window shots are mediocre at best and there is little that you can do to prevent frame edge blackout and flouressant lamp reflection. And just forget about trying to take pictures of signals.
True, but I never rode it until yesterday.
Anybody see this or have any comments?
Chuck Greene
If it's when the doors are closed, then I have no idea. But I could swear I've noticed the same thing on SEPTA's M-4 and Subway-Surface cars, and I think that it usually comes roughly in seqence with one person's feet hitting the car's floor. Of course basically anything could cause this, the T/O's cab on the M-4s is all on the right, with electrical gear behind it, it could be that ADtranz forgot to balance the trains, so now they wobble, just like the CAFs, I wouldn't put it past them.
Chuck Greene
Now that I think of it, shouldn't cars have damping? We've only studied basic resonant frequencies relating to electricity, which is similar to concrete objects, but not quite. Perhaps they do, just that it doesn't quite damp out enough.
Chuck Greene
Philip Hom
Golden Oldie - SMEE
Chuck Greene
John
Phil Hom
SMEE R10-R42 - Golden Oldie
"MTA chief uses tale of bathroom woe to argue fare hike was needed"
So what is a subway? What is a Peoplemover? Is it just the performance of the vehicle? the capacity? the method of operation? the length of the trains? the interchangeablity of the equipment (something most subway systems don't seem to have anyway, NY the gross exception)?
It certainly is getting somewhat blurry, subways resembling Peoplemovers, peoplemovers doing the same (JFK AirTrain is another good one, small subway or rail using peoplemover?). PATCO technically could run operatorless if the doors were triggered by someone standing on the platform as opposed to on the train. Does this make PATCO and all other ATO using systems at least part Peoplemover? Should subway be reserved for only the truest of true subways, like the NYCTA, slow, ancient two operator trains that never see daylight throughout a trip?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
A peoplemover has a tightly defined scope, a limited use such as moving people between terminals in an airport or around an amusement park.
A "metro" (I'm changing your use of the word "subway" to the more widely accepted generic term "metro" since most peoplemovers aren't even underground - Pittsburg's airport peoplemover is an exception) is not designed to just serve a limited, predefined set of venues.
If you want to use the word "subway," then the only real requirement is that it be underground and rail-based. Which Line 14 is, despite the rubber tires. Much of the Paris Metro system is rubber-wheeled - part of the reason it's so much quieter.
I realize this is somewhat arguing over semantics, but I'm just having problems rationalizing Line 14 in my head as a subway, which lead to my questioning of all other subways and peoplemovers.
Thanks
I like the number 4 line cars where the riders have to tiggeer the doors to open themselves.
IINM most of the lines are like that.
7km (4 miles) isn't bad. It's longer than a lot of lines in other cities - eg Budapest Line 1 (5km), Bucharest Line 4 (3.6km), Catania (3.8km), Genoa (3.5km), Kharkov Oleksiivs'ka Line (6.2km), Lisbon Oriente Line (6km), London Chesham Shuttle Metropolitan (6.35km), Lyon Line B (6km) - I think Line C's shorter too, Madrid Line R (1.1km) and Line 3 (6.4km), Moscow Kakhovskaya Line (3.5km), Nizhny-Novgorod [fka Gorky] Sormovskaya Line (1.2km), Vienna U2 (3.6km), Buenos Aires Line C (4.4km), Caracas Line 3 (4.5km), Medellin Line B (5.6km), Monterrey Line 2 (4.5km), Toronto Sheppard Subway (6.4km) and Scarborough RT (6.4km). You've got to admit at least some of those are quite respectable Subway lines.
Also remember that the Madeleine to Bibliothèque section is only the first phase of Line 14. It will be extended substantially in both directions - North to St-Lazare, Place de Clichy, La Fourche, then taking over the Asnières-Gennevilliers Branch of line 13; South to Olympiades, Maison Blanche, then taking over the Villejuif Branch of Line 7. There was a plan to extend the Southern end further to Orly Airport, but that got scrapped because RATP doesn't have quite that much money.
Like what was mentioned, a people mover generally covers a limited area, such as an airport, a college campus, a downtown, or an amusement park. I personally believe that what it serves is the main disiction of a people mover. All system called people mover serve just one purpose, whether to circulate people around an area, or to shuttle people from a parking lot to the main thing.
For the most part, a people mover uses proprietary equipment made by only one company. Subways, even rubber tired ones, have equipment that many companies can makes and follow certian standards.
Another feature of people movers is the captive ridership. In other words, it's the only way to get around. The people movers in airports like Denver, Gatwick and Pittsburgh are the only way to get between the terminals.
Another way to know if it's a people mover is that many have just back and forth shuttle operation. Pittsburgh, Cinncinati and Gatwick are like this.
They don't have to have platform doors, Miami doesn't have them.
I don't know of any people movers with T/Os.
You don't pay to use people movers, they are free. Miami Metromover just recently became free.
Being undergorund or above ground does not matter. Subways don't have to be underground, despite the name itself.
Line 14 is a subway because it doesn't have a captive audience, doesn't serve a single area (yeah, it's 7 km, but the whole Paris Metro is pretty compact to begin with), and it doesn't shuttle on one track the whole time.
Hartsfield and Denver aiports are people movers because of the following:
-They are free
-Serve a single area
-Captive ridership
-Proprietary equipment
It is a subway. It's cars are nearly identical to cars running on other paris subway lines. It is like saying that if NYC transit decides to build the secound ave subway with ATO and platform doors it does not qauilfy as a subway. SAS is not much shorter then the number 14 line
As for the whole subway vs people move question. One could argue that the grand central shuttle has more in common as to the FUNCTION of a peoplemover then a subway system.
In my mind it is the function that determines the name not the application of a particular type of rail equiptment
Any location outside the Hudson or East rivers might as well be in Madagascar or New Guinea as far as many New Yorkers are concerned.
As for New Yorkers not bring well traveled. Some people I know have not ventured all that far around the city even manhattan.
It is one of the most important things in all of life to view the world around us and thus travel expand ones mind
Unfortunitly some people grow pretty small minded and get locked into thier ways. It is a shame because many of those people end up being quite unhappy thinking that money is the answer to thier happyness.
I traveled around france up the TGV bullet train to amsterdam staying at hostels and peoples houses. Did not cost me much at all. Got to see alot.
I can remember my father who ventured all the way to northwestern Ohio to visit me in 1953. He kiddingly asked if we were subject to hostile Indian attack. His idea of a trip to the country was to drive out to Jones Beach on Long Island or visit a friend who had a farm in Joisey.
Tom
I'm assuming that the subject of the statement that that was in response to was me, since I started this apparantly misguided thread. I've always considered myself somewhat well traveled, at least in the US, only been to Canada twice, Victoria and Vancouver (pre-SkyTrain, IIRC). I really wasn't interested in whether or not bits of the Paris metro are peoplemovers, I was more interested in the definition between a subway, a light rail line, and a Peoplemover, it seems to me that the definitions are getting more and more blurred from what they were 30-40 years ago. I chose the subject mostly to arouse a bit of curiosity, I could have called it 'Definition of a Peoplemover vs Subway', but that sucks, questioning the definition of a line in a world capitol is a bit more fun. I must say I'm pleased with my handiwork, I learned quite a bit about the line between a peoplemover and a subway, thanks all.
Now how about this? What if an R-44 set were used on an airport peoplemover running underground at 40mph, yet wholely contained within the airport grounds? :)
Or a line that: services an international airport, yet uses B division rolling stock dimensions; uses conventional T-rail, yet runs completely completely ZPTO; uses platform doors even though it ventures far off the airport property; uses Linear Induction Motors for propulsion, yet runs some 8 miles end to end.
So how about it, is the AirTrain an El or a Peoplemover? :)
Now how about this? What if an R-44 set were used on an airport peoplemover running underground at 40mph, yet wholely contained within the airport grounds? :)
I'd call it a people mover since it serves one area. But what airport would need a 40 mph train? :-)
Of course NYCT is a subway, but it shouldn't be consdiered the defintion of what a "subway" should be based on how it operates. It has many obsolete features that no other subway has.
Okay, see, I'll disagree here. Of course, that viewpoint is coming from someone who hasn't traveled alot to other cities and their subways. So it's probably not a really good attitude to take on my part.
It's just that on none of the other subways in the world can you hear this:
"Next stop, Times Square".
"Next stop, Times Square".
You used to on the Merry Hill Monorail.
Do we have any French Subtalkers here...? I know we have some good 'ole English ones like Fytton and British James. Geez, what a map!
Get away - it's simple! There are only two things I find irritating about it: Montparnasse-Bienvenüe is shown as one station instead of the two stations connected by a very long passage that it actually is - try to avoid transferring between the 4 or 12 and 6 or 13 there if at all possible; and that there isn't a thin black line (indicating a short walk out of system) between Trinité (12) and Le Peletier (7) - they'd rather everyone crowd into the most busy station on the Metro (St-Lazare).
If you want to be confused you should see the Paris Bus Map - it bears practically no resemblance to reality!
Actually, I've just had a thought - I probably only find the Metro map simple because I know the Metro well enough not to need a map. I suppose they should have gone schematic, like the London map.
Now here's a subway with a fearsome map (Tokyo):
My travel companion and I never had a proble finding out how to get places using the maps.
Their are some long transfers that entail going up gigantic esculators. All in all paris metro system is fairly easy to get around. Plus during the day thier are also frequentr service that make it easy to transfer from one line to antother
There are three things which are a real pain in the derrière to do on the Paris Metro:
1) Anything from somewhere vaguely North on Line 7 to somewhere vaguely South on Line 12 - eg Pte de la Villette to Solferino.
2) Anything from somewhere vaguely North on Line 12 to somewhere vaguely South on Line 7 - eg Pigalle to Sully-Morland.
3) The transfer from 4/12 to 6/13 at Montparnasse.
(1) and (2) are particularly frustrating seeing as the lines get within a block of eachother at Trinité and Le Peletier, but there is no connecting passage, so it's a bit of a pain if you haven't got a Carte Orange or it's raining. The other solution is a double transfer - using the 2 may be scenic, but it's slow and the transfer at Stalingrad's a pain; the other options are just sheer nuisance value for the extra transfer.
(3) just needs to be known about really. 4 to 6 is easier at Raspail or Denfert, 12 to 6 is easier at Pasteur. Line 13 isn't really a hell of a lot of use (although it's a nice ride out to Châtillon-Montrouge), so it's not worth worrying about it.
Except Southbound on Line 7 or Northbound on Line 13.
and trains run from end-to-end.
Usually. Then when you expect the next stop to be Boulogne-Jean-Jaurès, you pull into Michel-Ange-Molitor.
At least it is more like a map than some of the schematic representations which give no idea of where the various lines are situated in respect to the surface of the earth.
Tom
Lol - like some of the situations you can get in London. Let me give you two examples:
ST PAUL'S TO MANSION HOUSE
Tube Map Style: Central Line to Liverpool St, Circle Line to Mansion House.
Surface of the Earth Style: Walk around the East End of the Cathedral, then turn left into Cannon Street - Mansion House station's straight in front of you.
LANCASTER GATE TO PADDINGTON
Tube Map Style: Central Line to Notting Hill Gate, Circle or District Line to Paddington (Praed St).
Surface of the Earth Style: Walk one block along Lancaster Terrace, ahead into Sussex Gardens, first left into Spring St. One block later, Paddington Station's in front of you, slightly to your right.
The fact that it runs underground has always been a contributing factor as to what I consider a subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
It should be noted that throughout history, the word 'subway' has become very generalized and can refer to Els, surface, open cut, and so forth. Speaking in NYC Subway terms, of course...
That is a very parochial view, since throughout the world the word "Metro" is more commonly used for urban rail transportation, and word "subway" usually denotes a pedestrian underpass.
Tom
The unusual one is if you go into the Subway in Trafalgar Square, you can get straight into Charing Cross Underground.
So if you see a sign that says, "UndergrounD Public Subway" it means not only can you catch an Underground, but there is a passageway outside of fare control you can use? When I was little, I thought of "Public Subway" as in anyone is allowed to use it.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
At some point you have to trust the train operator. At Queens Plaza,
the T/O has already demonstrated alertness and control of the
train by slowing for that long series of timers which are activated
when the trailing point switch ahead is reversed. That final
approach/time signal is already further down the platform than
is standard for that design. Are we really concerned that the
T/O will, upon clearing that signal, wrap it up and run the homeball?
Were the signals you were taking about US&S or GRS? On US&S signals the round lamp frame extends past the rectangle of the lampbox.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The brightness is excessive: these are in dark tunnels! The
increase in brightness is not because of some inherent superiority
in design or manufacturing but simply the fact that the new heads
do not have 65 years of steel dust on the lenses and that they use
double the wattage on the bulb.
Anyway, what this guy is talking about is not even a signal.
It is a stop mechanism with a pair of LEDs tacked on.
This is called a "blind trip". It is essentially a single-shot
timer signal, minus the signal head.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
If you see the train waiting outside the portal there are two
possible reasons:
1) It's an NX or UR plant and the tower operator forgot to
punch the approach signal button.
2) The train operator, wary of the rule which says that you
shouldn't enter a station unless you can make it all the way
to the stop marker, doesn't understand that he has to put
his nose into the station in order for the timer to start running
on that last approach signal.
These are R-33s retired from active duty in late 2002, which are Cars 8912 and 8913. 8912-13 are famous, or should I say INFAMOUS as they were apart of the train that went off the 239th St Yard Lead on February 3, 1998. They were in the C/R's position behind the pair (9152-53) that actually landed on top of a trailer and caught fire.
8912 and 13 were repaired, freshly painted, and returned to service some months after the incident. How many R-33s get to call the Tiffany El home? Not many!!!
-Stef
The el is unique in that it dates back to 1918, and has resided in both the Bronx and Queens. The structure was apart of the Jamaica El until it was demolished in the early 90s (the portion above 121 St), taken apart, and reassembled at Tiffany St. The structure is used for training purposes.
It's been more than 10 years since the structure had subway cars rest upon it.
-Stef
The two Redbirds in question would have been trucked into the facility and lifted by crane to the structure.
-Stef
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&xml=/news/2003/05/18/ncell18.xml (no subscription required)
We'll have broken the matter-antimatter reaction problem long before the potash locomotive ever exists.
As soon as I have my platinum wire, soup'll be on. Let's see what happens. While an ammeter may not tell the truth, an oscilloscope might. :)
Very cool idea, or at least a hell of a hot water heater.
"The findings were widely challenged and the scientists, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, accused of incompetence, fled America to set up labs in France."
(emphasis added)
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Thanks,
Larry
Sunnyside Yard
from 7 train
I totally agree. Sometime soon I want to go for a trip like that.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
Not necessary, IMHO.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Slowly but surely, the exodus of R-62s from the 4 continues.
All of a sudden there are 55 assigned to the 3, and now 260 left on 4. Just 30 R-62As have gone to the 7 so far, thus additonal transfers can be expected soon.
Also FYI, the Redbird count on the 7 is now at 231 total, including 25 single R-33s.
This is enough equipment to make up 20 11-car trains, but it looks like there are many less than these in use each day.
Tick, tock...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-Stef
Just kidding. You know I only kid because I love you.
One beautiful sunny summer's day, travelling southbound through the intersection of King and Church streets, the shoe on the end of the PCC's pole got stuck in a wire frog so the pole stopped moving forward while the rest of the streetcar continued rolling. The pole, apparantly, hadn't been attached to its holder too tightly so it just fell out, to the ground, but that was it for the PCC tour that day and the TTC had to rescue the stranded streetcar.
Naturally, someone on the Transit Toronto mailing list who lives in one of the condo buildings at that intersection wrote in, saying that they were watching this from their window, and emailed in updates on the situation every five minues.
It's a beautiful day, there's a stranded PCC an elevator ride away, grab the camera and get outside...
-Robert King
Oh god....I just realized something else in relation to that.Monday's a holiday and it's the type of holiday that everything run's on a Sunday schedule that mean's no Q Brighton Exp and the W is supposed to go over the tunnel and the N is supposed to run in Brooklyn only. Can anyone imagine the chaos that's gonna ensue in Manhattan on Monday,I know I can and...forget it,it'll be soooooo bad it's not worth mentioning.
Well yeah the shuttle buses were crowded and about 15 of them were used from Main-Willets Point ALONE last week so imagine if it were running from Woodside [don't count on it but you never know] that would be kind of crazy at least 60 buses would have to be used. As for the LIRR shuttles man they should be running at about every 8-10 minutes instead of 15.
Well that was another opportunity lost. In 1939 when the LIRR abandoned the Whitestone Branch through College Point, the city was considering taking it over for subway service. Unfortunately they decided against it.
"Clayton, you fuckhead! Don't use the word 'disaster' in a post. Normal people will think it means an accident. Wake up pussyboy!!!!!"
You're the one that's the pussy here, and don't call me a fuckhead and not have the nerve to tell me who you are. NORMAL people can distinguish the proper use of disaster from terrorist concerns to a hectic experience. Wake up diaper boy...
With the shuttle in effect, were there ANY trains at all going to Port Washington?
As for the genius who anonymously emailed Clayton, good job dude. Call someone a pussy when you don't even have the balls to tell who you are. A little too much on the special ORANGE EDITION adult diapers...
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Say what?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Which could be a safety hazard.
When the line was elevated, in 1913, there wasn't such a problem on Main Street...but now it's turned into an overcrowded mess on the street level.
I feel like I'm the Phil Mushnick of the LIRR...complain, complain...
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Clayton, you fuckhead! Don't use the word 'disaster' in a post. Normal people will think it means an accident. Wake up pussyboy!!!!!"
Now someone always has to be a dumbass and post retarded stuff like that :-\.
The sun will be out ,soon!
Chuck Greene
Todd hasn't been around to face the music, has he?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, since I've been out here, a lot of times. Not due to chicanary on my part. Just a matter of time and place. Fer instance, on the Babylon Branch in the pm rush. From Amityville, last week I got to ride the "suburban el" to Babylon on an M7-equipped train, por nada. The train freq on that branch, at that time gotta be at least 8 tph. So there's lots of trains stopping.
Also on the Main Line, from Farmingdale east, same timeframe. Very crowded trains, easy enough to board there unticketed. Let me repeat myself, I don't go hiding from conducters etc. Always carry a ticket for the ride. I just don't seek out the conductor.
This was a few days after the fare hike, and the fare was $2.25.
I don't remember on Metro-North, as it's been a few years since I've ridden it, but on the LIRR they usually do punch and take your ticket if you will not have to switch trains (at Jamaica, Babylon, Huntington, etc). And if you do have to switch, they usually take it after the last switch.
They don't take your ticket ever if it is on of those "bought on the train" tickets.
They sometimes use seat checks after taking your ticket, but not always. I often wondered about that when they take your ticket, and don't use seat checks. The conductor has to have a real good memory....
I have ridden many times for free on the LIRR. And no, it wasn't intentional, they sometimes just never came around. I have been on many crowded Friday Montauk branch trains that this was the case, they never took your ticket. I would board at Jamaica, and ride all the way without having my ticket taken.
Sometimes it could have worked, but I bought a ticket on the train West of Jamaica, so I paid anyway. Sometimes I would board at Fresh Pond, the conductor would sell me a ticket on the train, and after switching trains at Jamaica, the conductor never came to take it.
I have also ridden between East New York and Jamaica for free.
Bill "Newkirk"
Arti
First the Flushing Line. I counted at least twelve trains of Redbirds in service, there may have been more. Most of the trains were signed up correctly for "Willets Point-Shea Stadium." At Willet's Point there was a train of R-62A laid up on the sountbound local track (C2) which was out of service. Trains were being turned on the express track (C1/2) and the northbound local track (C3). Both the center platform and the northbound side platform were in use. A train arriving on track C-3 would open its doors first on the side platform and then on the center platform. There was an intersting move involved here with southbound trains leaving to Manhattan from track C3. Since you cannot directly access the southbound local (C4) from C3 at Willets Point we had to use track C6 which is actually the fourth track between Willet's Point and 111 Street. This track is identified as "MA" in Dougherty's track book and is not regularly used for southbound moves. We switched over to
track C4 just east of the 111 Street Station. The NYCTA personel did a good job of directing everyone to the LIRR. The walk on the ramp over the Corona Yard was nice too. Some intersting pieces of equiptment were to be seen; Crane Car OC267, Flat Car ORF19 and two of the Kawasaki Work Motors; EP011 and EP013.
Then we came to the Long Island Railroad.
There are three platforms and six tracks still remaining at what once was the World's Fair stop on the Port Washington Line. Only tracks 1 and two are usable for station service. Track 3 and 4 appear usuable for through service but the stairways to the platform between them are badly rotted away and thus not usuable. The platfrom between tracks 5 and 6 is in poor condition and the tracks are not electrified. The LIRR made everyone wait up on the ramp and then let about 300 people onto the platform to catch the regular service eastbound train on track 2. THe eight car shuttle composed of M-1 9062-3 and M-3 9786-7, 9816-7 and 9826-7 then arrived on track 1 and it took a while for the passengers to exit after which everyone was allowed down onto the platform to board. Now an eight car train of M-1/3 can hold about 1100 passengers seated so there was no problem accomodating the crowd. I rode the head car of the Flushing end and there where more LIRR personnel than passengers. After about ten minutes we left for the short trip to Main Street. When we got to Main Street the passengers exited and new ones got on. WE sat in the station for over twenty minutes before we left to go back Willet's Point. By the time we got back there had not been an eastbound out of Willet's Point for nearly 40 minutes and the waiting crowd was getting ugly.
I really can't explain the lackadaisical way the LIRR ran that shuttle. The turnaround times at Main Street was extreme. Even with a brake test the round trip could have been made in 15 minutes. The shuttle had exclusive use of track 1 between Main Stret and Willet's Point and the only real holdup would have been at Willets Point becaue of the small staircases. I don't know what signal rules are in effect but I assume that its either ABS or TCS. Even with ABS and nead to write a 19 order for movements against the current of traffic it should not have taken that amount of time. You could do it faster with Manual Block Rules.
The LIRR Shuttle trains had paper signs with a nuber 7 in a violet circle with the wording" Shuttle Main St-Willets Point.
I went back to the IRT and watched a train of Redbirds arrive and depart in about three minutes. Now thats rapid transit.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The group I was boarding the shuttle with was cut off early, and the next batch routed around to the eastbound platform to catch the normal westbound train (or at least that's what it sounded like, as the LIRR personnel at the top and bottom of the staircase communicated via megaphone....), so the train I was on had only about half the seats filled.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Each gang lined up on opposite banks of the railroad tracks near the Rivington St. station"
Huh? I didn't know surface railroads still existed in Lower Manhattan in 1903. Am I wrong, or did the producers of this show get the 2nd or 3rd Ave els confused with surface railroads?
Feb 17, 2003 (on left) without roof shroud and nose cone
May 18, 2003 together
Heck, for the entire nation! (in terms of passenger rail)
So does MNRR at 125th St.
From there the garbage is transferred to truck.
They climb down and walk along the catwalk.
And that's the truth, until someone else says otherwise.
Elias
Robert
Robert
Sure. As long as they don't drop them near the third rail.
We were told unofficially if we use them wrap them in something.
More than likely. A contact rail jumper with no chemicals inside causes a terrific explosion (when used improperly), I can only imagine adding chemical filled batteries to the mix.
It's harder than it looks.
It truly amazes me what modern technology can do. I rode on a green Line train over the old Harrison S curve around 3 p.m. yesterday and today its gone. I hope everybody from this board that visited ( or lives in, like me) Chicago got to ride that small, but significant piece of Chicago L history.
What's even more amazing is that by tuesday morning, the new structure is suppost to be in revenue service. I can understand that it will take 2 months before the speed limit of 35 mph is in effect because the new structure has to be fully installed, signalled, etc.. Even the first 2 months at 15 mph will be faster then 10 mph on the old structure though.
The question I have that maybe you guys can answer is, why does the CTA web site say the complete removal of the old structure will take until Fall 2003. Today the first day the 106 year old structure is out of service, its all gone, except for those small 6 to 12 inch pieces sticking out of the street.
What else do they have to do after the new piece is entirely integrated in 2 months??
Also, if you guys are interested, I have pictures from today showing what awesome amount of work they did in less then 24 hours, since 9p.m. yesterday. And pictures from yesterday, when the old curve still existed and was in use.
I guess it sucks even worse though if you live nearby. A park is being constructed on part of the former curve and Harrison St. won't open to traffic until Spring 2004.
Chuck Greene
In New York, the same amount of work probably would have taken three weeks.
Yeah, just look how long it's taking to re-align Sneidker!
New York, the City that LIVES OFF MEDICAID.
I even remember LIRR service shut down one morning rush because the abandoned girders of the Jamaica El overpass were getting unstable, and were ripped out first in a hurry.
I also have some miscellaneous pictures I have taken over the last few months. Including the temporary 54/Cermak station at Laramie, South Shore Line at Randolph & South Bend, Metra Electric University Park, few other Metra Shots, and some pics of Amtrak at the preserved Niles, Michigan Station.
I would like to upload these pictures somewhere for everybody to enjoy, but what would be the best way to do this??? I would be happy to upload them on this web site if the web master was cool with that. The only other concern I have is that I have dial-up which is very,very slow. Uploading that many pictures on my computer to e-mail would probably take 24 hours to complete. All I can think of right now is getting a picture CD made and mailing it or maybe saving them to a disk and uploading them to e-mail somewhere with a faster connection, like at COD where I am a student.
There's already a Chicago section here (hint to some of our newer SubTalkers - New York Subway Resources is more than just SubTalk. Check out the whole site.) so, that's where your pics will wind up.
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
I hear they are supposed to replace the A,C,J and Z lines (and possibly the M). How will this work? The C, J, M and Z are all 480' long, but the A is 600' long. Does this mean there will need to be 2 car types, one for the A, and the other for the C/J/M/Z? Or will they wisen up and make the consists be more flexible than fixed 4/5-car units?
What shop(s) would they be assigned to? Why do they not make a track connection between ENY yard and the Fulton Subway (which BTW is just 1 level below the street)? This would greatly simplify the situation, as otherwise they would have to go to at least 2 different shops (Pitkin and ENY).
Is the factory that is supposed to build them constructed yet?
Will they be CBTC-equipped? Does this mean the IND Fulton and/or 8th Ave as well as BMT Jamaica and/or Myrtle, will be CBTC-equipped? Would being CBTC-equipped increase the effectiveness of skip-stop service on the J/Z (or for that matter allow trains to run often enough to not have it in the first place)?
Will the stripmaps/announcements be able to tell the difference between a J and a Z train?
Hope this halp you?
Robert
Robert
There will not be two car-types, there will be two TRAIN types. The only difference between a 4-car set and a 5-car set is the extra B (non-cab) car in the middle of the train.
Such an arrangment can be set up in the TA's own shops by severing the link bars and adding or subtracting a new B car.
What shop(s) would they be assigned to? Why do they not make a track connection between ENY yard and the Fulton Subway (which BTW is just 1 level below the street)? This would greatly simplify the situation, as otherwise they would have to go to at least 2 different shops (Pitkin and ENY).
Why is this a problem? ENY doesn't have the capacity to maintain the A and C, and if it did, what would you do to Pitkin? Demolish it?
There's also 207th, that maintains the A too.
Most subway car-types exist in more than one shop.
Will they be CBTC-equipped? Does this mean the IND Fulton and/or 8th Ave as well as BMT Jamaica and/or Myrtle, will be CBTC-equipped?
From what I've heard, they are to be identical to the R-143s. The R-143s are not CBTC-equipped, but include the ports and the room for the equipment to be installed when needed. It is installed only on the CBTC test train. This is unlikely to change.
Will the stripmaps/announcements be able to tell the difference between a J and a Z train?
Why would it be any different from now? The J/Z will use a single strip map with only one strip. Just like on other trains that don't make every stop (ride the 4 or 5), the skipped stops will simply not be lit.
I wonder how the cameras/guards/whatever security reacted when our northbound (M) train stopped dead in the middle of the tunnel, right next to that platform, and all the passengers in that car could see it? We were sitting there for about 3-4 minutes, too.
They probably didn't give a damn, considering that the money train platform on the IND is in the middle of a train station, plainly visible to all.
It's not like there's a big green dollar sign on it, after all.
Mark
Or here, in the right backround:
Or the tracks could run a little further north to the Montauk line, and trains would run west on this line and via a new connection at Sunnyside (cheaper than a new East River tunnel, right?) and go into the existing LIRR tracks to Manhattan. In fact, this could be done in conjunction with LIRR East Side Access project to provide the neccessary capacity to Manhattan, rather than building 2 separate tunnels (one for ESA and the other for JFK-Manhattan, a waste of money IMO).
If the latter is cheaper, than ignore everything I just said. However if you think so then you must defend your position on how it can be cheaper to build an underwater tunnel than to clear a forest. If it is so cheap, why do they not have tunnels connecting to every major cross-street in Manhattan, to ease traffic?
Tell that to the milk-blooded politicians who'd gladly plop gigabucks into a new tunnel–exclusively for AirTrain of course–rather than face rabid NIMBYs along the abandoned ROWs. "Good gravy! What would my constituents think?!"
You may rebuild on the existing ROW if you wish, but all structure, and all track would have to be completely replaced, and none of it reused. We just don't do things that way anymore.
I have several plans for the Montauk line, all use the ROW as a routing, but all would require a new structure be built to run the trains on.
My WTC:LIRR/NJT project sems to be the most useful.
Elias
Almost all of those Long Island residents have cars and don't live within walking distance of an LIRR station. No matter how much train service there is, driving will remain the preferred option for almost all of them.
Manhattan has residents of its own, and most of them don't have cars. A direct connection could make stops in Brooklyn, which has even more residents than Manhattan and where most residents also don't have cars. It could also stop at transfer points to every subway line except the 6 (so those who don't have one-seat rides have two-seat rides rather than three-seat rides), to PATH, to NJTransit, to Amtrak, and to bus lines at the city's two major bus stations.
The direct connection I had suggested is nothing other than our good friend, the A train. Yes, there is room for airport passengers.
Many people don't want to leave their car at the airport for a week. Right now many people take some kind of quasi-limo to the airport. I think a lot of those people, as long as they don't have too much luggage, will prefer to take a taxi to the local RR station and then take the train to Jamaica.
But we'll see.
It would be nice to know how much of Newark Airtrain traffic comes from the south and how much from the north. But I'm not making a trip there just to find out.
Some Manhattan residents also get rides to the airport, but only those who have a nearby friend or relative with a car and who can afford to lose a parking space. At the same time, most Manhattan residents live in walking distance of a subway station (although, depending on luggage, some will have to take a bus to the subway). So, with direct A service, most Manhattan residents would have two-seat service and no reasonable alternative, while with AirTrain most Nassau residents will have three-seat service (car or taxi to LIRR station, LIRR to Jamaica, AirTrain to JFK) and a reasonable alternative.
(Incidentally, it's not so much the number of seats but the number of times the passenger has to get up and carry his luggage from one vehicle to another that's at issue, especially if those vehicles don't share a platform. I think it's perfectly acceptable for rush hour commuters to have to transfer, if necessary for system efficiency, but a different metric appplies to airport travelers.)
True, personally, I have never left my car at the airport, and have always been driven to the airport by friends or relatives. Actually, I have only once used a shuttle service, and that time I only caught my plane by 10 minutes! Luckily that was before 9/11's security, or I would not have made it. I don't like relying on other people (meaning shuttles or public transportation) when trying to get to the airport on time.
Actually, if traveling by car non-rush hours, I can make it to either JFK or La Guardia in less than 45 minutes (of course I always leave a lot more time than that) from Mid-Suffolk. I doubt any kind of LIRR service would get me there that quick, especially considering I would have to be brought to the train station. I would consider a LIRR service however before I would ever take another private shuttle or some sort of bus service. I don't know if Air Train will do it for me though. I may consider it on my way home from the airport, but would probably stick to someone driving me on the way to the airport.
I have to admit also that when I used to live in Brooklyn and Queens, it took me almost as long to get to the airports as it does now by car...and certainly longer when I used to take the bus to JFK. I don't think AirTrain in it's current form would shorten that, even if I still lived there.
LIRR plus Airtrain can't usually compete with car driven directly to the airport. But some people don't want to park at the airport. LIRR + Airtrain CAN compete with the current modes of transportation those people use.
Correct. I don't like to leave my car at the airport, so I would defintely would use the LIRR/Airtrain combo if I couldn't get someone to drive me. I know it's water under the bridge, but I still believe that the ideal airport access would have been via the LIRR Rockaway branch, with the LIRR using it. It would have been beneficial to both LIRR users AND subway users. The branch two tracks for most of the abandoned route, but is four tracks south of the Libery el. The LIRR could have swung in just like it always did before the 60's from the mainline using those two tracks, (and from Brooklyn too), and then switch to the center tracks south of the Liberty El. The A train would come off the Liberty El, and run on the outer tracks, just like it does now. At Howard Beach the LIRR would swing off (via a flying junction) and terminate IN the airport, and the A train would also swing off at Howard Beach (also via a flying junction) and terminate with the LIRR (on seperate tracks, but the same terminal) IN the airport. A circulator AirTrain-like train would connect all the terminals and the LIRR/A Train terminal in the airport.
Since the A train would no longer go to Far Rockaway, the C train would then terminate there. (An S would still serve Rock Park).
No one is asking for A service to drectly enter the airport except a few rail buffs on Subtalk. Passengers to the airport don't care and and have said so.
And they said so...when?
So if I go to the Howard Beach station and poll people transferring from the subway to the PANYNJ bus, and ask them if they would rather the (A) train go directly to the departures level of the terminal, they will say no? I find that VERY hard to believe.
They will say it's not worth the money.
I find that VERY hard to believe."
Visit Atlanta and check out MARTA and its connection to the airport circulator. Only the T (terminal) gates are really accessible directly from the subway. For all the other concourses, you really need to use the airport circulator train.
MARTA trains come to the airport station packed full of people. Doesn't bother them, and it won't bother NY commuters either.
That's a very scientific poll you just took.
I don't see you presenting any evidence to the contrary. Do you have anything objective to offer besides "We're railbuffs, we think AirTrain stinks even though it has a railfan window, and we want them to take it down and put the A train into the airport."
Unfortuntely, MTA was not about to extend the A train into the airport. Given that reality, the PA proceeded with its own plan.
What's that French expression, which means, "tht's life?" C'est la vie (I'm sure I didn't spell it right)?
I don't know whether to say "You're wrong" or "You're right" - either way your spelling's fine.
The passengers who were polled were then clearly AIRLINE PASSENGERS buying airplane tickets, and not subway riders or airport employees. (Or so I would assume).
The Airtrain thingie, then is only a connector from the Airport to the nearest existing transit. The cost of this service is an issue apart.
It seems to me to be a most otimal solution to the give set of circumstances. And I'm not sure that I would *want* a city subway train wandering around the airport terminals.
Elias
Well, I'd at least like to see something like the plan we were promised built. The plan approved with the Passenger Facility Charge had the Airtrain continuing from Jamaica to LaGuardia via Downtown Flushing, and from there to Long Island City. From there it was to end at a Manhattan terminal after crossing the Queensboro, but I'd be satisfied with it terminating at Queens Plaza with all the connections there.
Or better yet, heading back east over the Sunnyside Yard and Montauk Branch, down the former Rockway Line, and back to Howard Beach to form a big Queens Loop. They could cut the price to $2.00 and still make more money with all the pontential trips on that system.
Come to think of it, AirTrain may be in violation of the rules. I can't wait to see how long it takes for Howard Beach residents who work in Jamaica to realize that, for a dirt cheap $40 monthly pass, they have a single-transfer ride to work. That sure beats the Van Wyck, and it's a lot cheaper than a month's worth of gas.
Same thing in San Francisco.
Same thing in St. Louis.
Same thing in Los Angeles.
Same thing at BWI.
It will be the same thing in Dallas.
Transit access to all terminals in lieu of an airport cirulcator doesn't make sense. Rush periods are different, frequency of service needs are different. You could build parallel systems, but it's intuitively cost ineffective -- let alone probably doubly disruptive to airport operations.
The layout of LGA, though, probably means that a subway extension to LGA could effectively have 3 stops on the airport (Marine Air, Terminal B, US Air/Delta terminals). The nature of LGA (few passengers transferring between terminals and parking lots very close to the terminals) makes a circulator less important.
CG
So it would be different from AirTrain only because the subway covers another two miles and then you have to transfer unless you're already at your terminal of choice?
" That would be a big plus over the current Howard Beach leg of Airtrain."
It would haveno advantage whatsoever to AirTrain except at one terminal. And of course, today doing it would be ridiculous.
Like I said before, your argument is rail buff fantasy, nothing more.
That's a far cry from placing the nearest subway station miles away from the nearest terminal, and asking for an additional payment (of 2½ times the initial subway fare!) for a ride on the terminal circulator -- the same exact ride that those parking in the parking lot (for a mere $10 per day per vehicle) get to take free of charge.
Yes, rush periods are different. That's good! During the commuter rush, lots of trains can run to Lefferts and the Rockaways. During the traveler rush, lots of trains can run to the airport. Potential capacity issues are avoided. (OTOH, the oft-cited capacity issues are contrived. Much of the capacity through Cranberry is eaten up by the C train, which doesn't run past Euclid. If there were demand for more service on one of the branches, the C could be extended to meet it. Still, in general, staggered peaks are good, because they reduce the overall peak, and peaks are inefficient.)
Yes, frequency of service needs are different. Who ever said that every single train at the airport has to run to Manhattan? Most trains could just circle the terminals endlessly. (I don't think the PA plans to run every single AirTrain to Howard Beach or Jamaica.)
Red herrings.
At least you didn't raise the red herring about car dimensions. (AirTrain cars are 60 feet by 10 feet. So are the R-32's and R-38's that make up much of the A fleet and, for that matter, so is the entire R-160 order, which should keep us going for another few decades.)
Referring to keeping the city moving for another few decades, or to keeping the discussion of whether the A should have been brought onto the airport alive?
No matter, they're both true statements.
CG
Actually, it's exactly the same. If the circulator ride is shorter, the subway ride has to be longer.
If AirTrain's transfer point had been closer to the terminal area, the subway ride would be a bit longer, the circulator ride a bit shorter, and, except for maybe one terminal, it's all a wash.
You presented an example (O'Hare) that proves out the Port Authority's concept. Your argument above is illogical and passengers don't care.
Now, the price might be an issue - but that's adjustable up or down to suit demand.
So, you're only presented one argument - the same one GP38 did: You don't like AirTrain because it doesn't conform to your railbuff fantasy. You have nothing else to present.
The Port Authority has surveyed passengers extensively. You can criticize their methods, but since you have nothing to offer yourself, your criticism doesn't mean a whole lot.
Actually, it's exactly the same. If the circulator ride is shorter, the subway ride has to be longer
Faulty premise. With the Blue Line, you are in the airport nonetheless; far less to go wrong insofar as connections to different terminals, and if something should go wrong with the circulator, you have the option of walking due to your already being in the airport as opposed to scrambling for a taxi or a bus—IOW, you have already bypassed the traffic coming into the airport (same applies for leaving the airport). (And yes, I have walked from terminal to terminal while in airports like JFK, LGA and EWR.)You presented an example (O'Hare) that proves out the Port Authority's concept. Your argument above is illogical and passengers don't care
Don’t be so sure that the passengers don’t care per se; the political will still out-wills the passengers’ wills, so the passengers have to eat what is put on the table. Tell me that is untrue when it comes to NYC, because rest assured it is not, otherwise the SAS would have been built a very long time ago, for example, and all of the former railroad terminals on the Hudson River Waterfront would have been within Manhattan already via bridges and GCT would have been at the Battery—and we would have had one-seat ride subway service to all airport terminals.
You don't like AirTrain because it doesn't conform to your railbuff fantasy. You have nothing else to present
False, and you had better stop being insulting yet again because (a) I do not regard myself as a “railbuff” (very bad form to make assumptions about people) and (b) I was purely speaking from the perspective of being a passenger. Not to mention that I was speaking from experience, having used the CTA Blue Line to/from O’Hare Airport numerous times.
The Port Authority has surveyed passengers extensively. You can criticize their methods, but since you have nothing to offer yourself, your criticism doesn't mean a whole lot
Since it is not an independent survey but one the PANYNJ has itself conducted, I regard it as biased, which is a quite valid criticism and accusation. As for surveys, I am not in the business of conducting them. Where might your own survey be?
If you find my CTA Blue Line comparison tiresome, then I will switch to comparing SEPTA’s R1 train, which does indeed serve all terminals of Philadelphia International Airport and submit that JFK ought to have something similar via the LIRR. Better?
And how often do you expect that to happen? Even if it did happen, the PA would provide alternate shuttle service to the terminal for those rare occasions. That's far better than having to walk it. Your argument is laughable.
"False, and you had better stop being insulting yet again"
It's not an insult. It's a statement based on the sum total of your posts, and the only remaining logic for this one. Show mee otherwise, and I'll accept it.
" because (a) I do not regard myself as a “railbuff” (very bad form to make assumptions about people)"
That's your business; how I regard you is my business. You seem eager to change my mind. So change it.
"Since it is not an independent survey but one the PANYNJ has itself conducted, I regard it as biased, which is a quite valid criticism and accusation."
Without being able to point to any methodological flaw, it's a just an ignorant remark on your part, nothing more.
"As for surveys, I am not in the business of conducting them. Where might your own survey be?"
I'm satisfied with what the PA did. If you don't like it, say why,and be specific.
"then I will switch to comparing SEPTA’s R1 train, which does indeed serve all terminals of Philadelphia International Airport"
Philadelphia International's terminals are laid out differently than JFK. SEPTA did a great job, but they had a different geometry to work with. If you would like to rearrange all the JFK terminals in a row, then the LIRR could serve them very well indeed.
Back to square zero for you.
If the A train stops at the airport, then I live inside Penn Station. (Well, not quite. It will cost 2½ times as much to get from Howard Beach to the actual airline terminals as it does to cover a similar distance from my home to the actual railroad tracks at Penn.)
Pity.
I hope you realize you're responding to a half-year-old post.
Seriously, I didn't even realize someone had raised this thread from the dead before you mentioned it.
His last post.
Did he transmogrify into some other handle?
Yes, he is now, David of Broadway.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the key issue is to somehow persuade these people to take mass transit instead. If we could do that, resurrecting the LIRR Rockaway branch would have more precedence over other things.
There are two ways to try to convince people to reduce their use of an underpriced resource. One is to raise the price of that resource. The other is to lower the price (either the actual cash price or some other cost to the user, like time or convenience) of an alternative resource.
I am a staunch proponent of the first approach.
We've already tried the second approach. The result is that commuter rail riders are subsidized by their poorer (on average) neighbors who ride the subway. While this encourages Long Island residents to leave their cars at home or at their nearby train stations, it also encourages city residents -- specifically, city residents who can afford it -- to leave the city so they can take advantage of these subsidies. With each move, the subway-to-LIRR subsidy increases while the income gap between subway and LIRR riders widens. New arrivals to Long Island are also likely to buy new cars -- and use them. Yes, the subsidies to LIRR are indirectly responsible for an increase in auto ownership!
Fortunately, enough people who can afford it find the city attractive enough that they're willing to remain on the donor side of the subsidies in exchange for the ability to live in the city. I don't think it's prudent to rely on the existence of these people, especially in today's economic climate.
We should be looking for ways to make the city itself attractive to people who have a choice of where to live. Subway-to-LIRR subsidies should be reduced. Transit should be improved where it can best support itself: in the city. I want suburbanites to notice that, while they wallow in traffic, the city has a quick, convenient, inexpensive subway system that could take them where they need to go -- including 2nd Avenue, Javits, and the airports -- if only they lived near it. That's the alternative to driving I want to most strongly promote.
There's an easy way to reduce traffic in the absence of a subsidized alternative. It's not politically popular, but it works. It's called tolls. We have this wonderful technology called E-ZPass. Let's use it to help solve our problems.
All roads and crossings, everywhere in the region are tolled
In the absence of that, all crossings connecting Manhattan are tolled in one direction, and no other crossings are tolled (that means a free Verrazano Bridge).
Exactly.
I'd impose a tall toll to enter Manhattan, but the VNB, Whitestone, Throgs Neck, Triboro et al, perhaps even the Tapan Zee and the GWB if one does not exit in Manhattan would become free, or at most nominal.
The four main free bridges (Bklyn, Mttn, Wburg, and Qbro) should be CLOSED to cars: busses, trucks with permits, cabs, etc would have better but not necessairly free access.
The Lincoln Tunnel should be BUSES ONLY during rush hours.
Elias
I don't agree that driving on Long Island (or anywhere else) is underpriced, what with the cost of gasoline, insurance, and of course vehicles themselves. It's a major hit on almost anyone's budget. More to the point, driving on Long Island (and in most densely populated suburbs too) is anything but pleasant, thanks to heavy traffic and an unimaginable proliferation of traffic lights.
The result is that commuter rail riders are subsidized by their poorer (on average) neighbors who ride the subway ... With each move, the subway-to-LIRR subsidy increases while the income gap between subway and LIRR riders widens.
I remain skeptical that subway riders are on average so much poorer than commuter rail riders. Maybe it's true, but I'd like to see some statistics.
Driving *IS* underpriced by anybody else's world standards. Gasoline in America is dirt cheap, or maybe you haven't bought any in Europe or elsewhere. Of course most of the price is taxes, and the states and cities are in deep doodoo because nobody is willing to pay a tax, but all want the services.
The want roads that are fixed and smooth, and go where they want to go, they want communities that are clean and safe, but they'll not lift a finger to cause this to happen, nor will they pay a dime to hire somebody else to do it.
Peolpe, our living room does not end at our front door! It goes on down the street, across the town, around the state, and across the nation. All is our living room, and we must all pay to make it so.
Americans have a rabid case of the 'gimmies'. The rich won't pay out a dime in taxes, and the poor all want hand-outs and entitlements.
I'd be in favor of tax cuts if they were not blatent pandering for republican votes, while ever do-gooder project is a blatent pandering for democratic votes. We are driving the sides further and further apart, instead of looking at our land as one living room and one people.
But to get back on topic. Yes the price of driving is way underpriced, at least in terms of social, infrastructure, and environmental consequences.
Elias
I said it was underpriced, not that it was inexpensive.
More to the point, driving on Long Island (and in most densely populated suburbs too) is anything but pleasant, thanks to heavy traffic and an unimaginable proliferation of traffic lights.
Thank you for making my point! Driving is underpriced given the supply-demand ratio of roads. Would you prefer a capitalistic solution (pay more for the roads in highest demand) or a socialistic solution (wait in line for the roads in highest demand)? The socialistic solution is the one currently in place.
Motor vehicles take up a lot of space, when in motion and when parked. Why aren't they charged rent (except when parked at meters)?
It seems obvious to me. City residents tend to ride the subway; Nassau/Suffolk residents tend to ride the LIRR. Average incomes are lower in the city than in Nassau and Suffolk. True, many LIRR riders also ride the subway, but they get a huge discount in the process.
I don't remember if the U.S. Census distinguishes between commuter rail and urban transit. If it does, it shouldn't be hard to find the average incomes of NYC-area residents who commute via commuter rail and who commute via transit.
In general this may be true, but I think that it's probably more true for Nassau, than for Suffolk.
Let's also not forget that Manhattan certainly doesn't have a shortage of well-to-do people either, probably many alot richer than many Suffolk (or Nassau) residents...although maybe they may use taxis rather than the subway, wheras well-to-do Long Islanders do actually use the LIRR, so yes that is where this subway vs. LIRR income level phenomena may be accurate.
On a sidenote, and this may be just a perception, I also feel that the average income level of Metro-North riders is also higher than that of LIRR riders.
I'm referring to averages. Of course, some subway riders are richer than some LIRR riders.
On a sidenote, and this may be just a perception, I also feel that the average income level of Metro-North riders is also higher than that of LIRR riders.
Yes, I have the same hunch. For some reason the LIRR is the system that invariably comes up in these discussions. I don't know why. Maybe there just happen to be more LIRR riders than Metro-North riders on SubTalk.
MNRR is less interesting to talk about.
- No good way to connect MNRR to the airports.
- Few unused or underused ROWs to talk about. Somehow suggestions about reactivating the Putnam Branch don't have quite the interest level of reactivating the Rockaway LIRR branch or putting more passengers back on the Montauk branch. The underused Amtrak ROW could be worth more discussion than it gets, though until ESA gets near completion there's no possibility of the route leading anywhere that has spare capacity.
- Simpler system. No equivalent of Jamaica or Brooklyn that allows for interesting reconfigurations.
- The Bronx is mostly IRT land, so any schemes for closer integration with the subways run up against the fact that you probably just end up dumping more people onto the Lex.
YEs, although I like Metro-North, the LIRR is a far more interesting railroad. The LIRR is the railroad we "love to hate". We criticize it much, but deep down there is something about it that is like no other railroad.
- Few unused or underused ROWs to talk about. Somehow suggestions about reactivating the Putnam Branch don't have quite the interest level of reactivating the Rockaway LIRR branch or putting more passengers back on the Montauk branch........The Bronx is mostly IRT land, so any schemes for closer integration with the subways run up against the fact that you probably just end up dumping more people onto the Lex.
Very true also. Actually, the LIRR's abandoned branches are for some reason more interesting, not only because of their infastructure, but probably because the Bronx is so well served through the IRT. The LIRR's abandoned lines like Whitestone and Rockaway branches, etc, have appeal because they could have added such a great addition to Queens's subway system as Queens is underserved. Even the LIRR branches that are not abandoned would make great additions to the subway system, like the Lower Montauk Branch or the line through Laurelton. And where else could you have had service like was provided on the Lower Montauk Branch when local service was still provided....only the LIRR has/had charming lines like that.
- Simpler system. No equivalent of Jamaica or Brooklyn that allows for interesting reconfigurations.
Even non-railfans have to be in awe seeing trains roll through Jamaica during rush hours.
IMO, hell yeah! A perception thing sure, but I think the L.I. folks are a little more "down-home" than northern suburbanites. The LIRR coverage area also seems to be more of an extension of the Brooklyn/Queens subway-el mindset than the MN is for the equivalent Manhattan/Bronx area.
It all goes back to politics. As long as the NIMBY's are left with their precious land, they vote for certain politicos who get to stay in office. Smart, huh? :-/
But: you have to solve a lot of legitimate problems homeowners have with the ROW, and you have to buy off or roll over the NIMBYS.
This whole issue over the "one seat ride" boils down to who will ride AirTrain the most:
Locals or Out-of-towners
Business travelers or Tourists
I believe Locals & Business travelers because they are more familiar with NYC's transit system than the wary Out-of-towners or baggage-laden Tourist. The latter two would most likely take a taxi straight to their hotels. I believe that subway access to the airports are more vital than AirTrain expansion. This subway should include a restored Rockaway & Montauk ROWs and/or repurposed Atlantic Ave line.
It was probably tile-free earlier, but I like the rhyme and don't know what it was like before.
Why they stripped the walls and then did nothing I can't say for sure, but my best guess is they figured out that those new tiles were about three inches thicker than the original ones and wouldn't fit in the space against the side wall, which is why no express station on Fourth Ave. or Broadway ever got the cinder block treatment.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In all honesty I find it to be a very dank metalliac smell.
You sure you didn't have a leak somewhere?
Nope, unlike NYC, there aren't enough terrorism threats and orange alerts there to make me wet myself.
Uh, not that I wet myself in New York...
Boston smells that way, Philly does too.
BART opened in 1972 and it had the smell within a couple years.
Muni Metro smells that way.
LACMTA Red Line is starting to smell that way.
And the Pershing Square station smells like the world's largest urinal. Heaven help anyone getting off there, go upstairs and every planter in the landscaping is full of piss and poop. You need a mask....
The only system I have NOT smelled "that subway smell" on is WMATA. Maybe their standards of housecleaning ought to be emulated by other systems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
That was a classic episode. (Its from "Seinfeld", for the uninitiated.)
GAWD, you like the smell there?
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, my other theory is why Frank Sinatra really left Hoboken. It wasn't fame and fortune, but the smell at the Hudson and Manhattan station !
Bill "Newkirk"
John
It just so happens that Chapter 11 Choo Choo and I were walking down Broadway past 116th, 110th, and 103rd just after midnight Saturday morning. All subway entrances on the east side of Broadway were barricaded. (It occurred to me later that this wasn't because of the GO. These were wood barricades, not the usual GO tape, and besides, 116th and 103rd have mezzanines, so there is normally access to the SB platforms from the east side of the street.) My hunch? For the next few weeks, those staircases are being reconstructed. At 116th and 103rd, passengers can use the entrances on the west side of Broadway. At 110th, the west side entrance only leads to the SB platform, so NB trains won't be stopping.
I don't think this is posted online. (Right now apparently nothing is posted online, or at least I can't access the service advisories page.)
Apologies if I've gotten any of the details wrong.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-Stef
I'm sure the weekend GOs we've been having (express in one direction from 96 to 137, for those of you who haven't seen it) will continue throughout the project.
more
THANK YOU for the early scoop! I might just head over there on Monday.
Did you notice if they still have those racks of tons and tons of subway maps?????? I hope they still do. I need to go over and get some. THANKS!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You can't see from the photos here, but I'm really concerned about their lack of MVMs in the station. < sarc > Is 10 really enough? < /sarc >
I went out there today with RIPTA42HopeTunnel. The mezzanine is divided into three sections: the south end is in subway fare control, the northeast corner is in AirTrain fare control, and the northwest corner is outside fare control. There are standard turnstiles between the outside world and the subway and special AirTrain flipgates (with MetroCard readers for entry and exit) along the other two barriers. There are MVM's (but no MEM's) outside fare control and in AirTrain fare control.
There are windows overlooking the tracks. They're still relatively clean, but they won't stay that way for long. Photographers, get out there now.
Both platforms now have elevator access. The elevators aren't terribly large, but it doesn't look like that'll be a major problem -- an A train pulled in and a lot of people with luggage came up the escalator, but only one opted for the elevator. So much for Ron's contention that ADA-compliant walking transfers are just as convenient as cross-platform transfers.
The permanent platform is back in service on the SB side.
U Go, brah... from the LOOKS of things, MYSTICAL Chiks are there
(yes, even at 3am when these photicos were taken)..
I see only one chik in all the pictures, and she has blonde hair and hence (absent a dye job) is not mystical.
:)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You should see the stairway entrance from HB into the station. The stairways are not too wide, maybe for 2 people at most (carrying my bags I had to wait for someone to pass going up before i went down). If the elevators go out the residents get f*cked.
Aren't there escalators? My memory may be failing me, but I could have sworn that there were escalators to the street as well as to the two subway platforms. (I did notice the narrow staircase, though.)
There is one item I did notice in the neighborhood. There was oodles available (during a holiday weekend, yet!), unrestricted. I'm not going to spell out what I'm talking about, for fear that there won't be oodles available when I try to take advantage of my discovery, but it's on one of the corners of the Monopoly board.
Oodles? of what?
Aren't there escalators? My memory may be failing me, but I could have sworn that there were escalators to the street as well as to the two subway platforms. (I did notice the narrow staircase, though.)
Nope. There were elevators, but no escalators that I saw.
Do you know if there are plans to add a HEET/HXT or two between the SB platform and the street? The new mezzanine is much higher than the old one and the unnecessary climb might as well be eliminated.
Incidentally, is the station officially ADA-compliant now? Will the next map have a wheelchair symbol at Howard Beach?
I hope so! The old station had an iron madien at the north end which made it very convenient. If an exit there isn't replaced you can believe there will be letters going to the MTA on that one. It was great as the residents could avoid the airport crowd.
However the MTA would find it beneficial not to put one because of the morons who couldn't read the signs "EXIT TO STREET ONLY" when it was there and they exited the station.
Not a big deal anymore, since AirTrain is accessible directly from the street, without going through subway fare control.
I noticed a sign at the street entrance pointing the way to the JFK shuttle bus. Where did it lead? Has there always been a way to cross the tracks around there outside of fare control?
Not a big deal anymore, since AirTrain is accessible directly from the street, without going through subway fare control.
True. Hadn't even thought of that.
Has there always been a way to cross the tracks around there outside of fare control?
Nope. Its always been through fare control.
There was definitely a sign on Sunday at the street entrance pointing to the shuttle bus. I didn't try to follow it. Where does it lead?
It was hand-written on a Capital Improvements sign, right? I'm guessing it used to hang somewhere on the NB platform and was moved. No one bothered to cover the shuttle bus markings.
That's how it was for years. It used to suck to have to work in the airport and have to give the MTA $1.50. But that's how it worked.
Jail cells?
Economics Study Claims "Free Parking Prize" Destabilizes Monopoly Game
Economics Study Claims "Free Parking Prize" Destabilizes Monopoly Game
That is all gone by 6am. And the city has placed new restrictions on everything within a block radius of the staiton from what I can see.
A block radius isn't much.
I've never heard of a NYC street that doesn't theoretically get cleaned at least once a week. Are you sure the signs weren't just at the far end of the block?
The other possibility is that the local population removes the cars themselves, thus continually creating new spaces. That's another well known Queens phenomenon.
In principle, parking on a city street is never permitted for over seven consecutive days, IINM, even in the absence or suspension of alternate side regulations. This is rarely if ever enforced except in response to complaints -- and, I suppose, if too many air travelers park long-term on the streets of Howard Beach, residents will begin to file complaints.
Here in this part of Brooklyn (census tract 702.04), the only parking regulation signs are next to a school and in places near sharp corners.
I've also never seen a street sweeper here.
Come to Marine Park, Mill Basin, most of SI. We have no street cleaning on our streets.
Come to think of it I've never seen a street sweeper down here ever.
In area's with single family and two family homes, the residents generally care about the conditions of the streets around there homes and sweep themselves.
It is a bit different when a large majority of residents are renters and don't care or the density is so great that the mess is too much for residents to handle on thier own
I prefer sweeping myself vs having to move my car to have a street sweeper go by
Its not having to move the car. The residents in many cases do better than the street sweeper when they care about the neighborhoods appearance.
Where do you get the idea that renters don't care how their neighborhoods look?
Peace,
ANDEE
It is that the large majority are not going to come down from thier third floor apartment and sweep the street in fron of thier house.
How many renters do you see gardening in front of thier building. The easiest way to tell a house that is rentd out from one that is owner occupied is to look at the garden in front of the house.
Owners put more pride into the appearence of their neighborhood and grounds around thier house. It is the place they will be for a long time. renters are someqhat more transient. Many condo owners buy condo's vs. a house becasue they don't want to be bothered cleaning up and tending to such issues as the gardern
It is a proven fact that owner ocuupied areas are more attractive then areas where a large majority of the people are renters. No matter the income level
I had backyard access in my last apartment, so I maintained it and planted in it, as did the owner. In my current house, the landlord said the backyard is his and off-limits to me. I saw him back there once, to cut a branch off a tree last summer. The rotting branch is still sitting on the ground. He poured concrete over the grass in front of the house a few weeks ago.
I do that regularly and contribute money to the cause. Have been doing so for the past 20+ years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Most renters don't lay out a dime out of thier pockets to spruce up thier building or the area around the building.
I don't blame them either.
The fact is simple that most renters are not going out of there way to spend money and effort to a location for which they do not own.
For instance my new neighbor and I(we share a common front garden) have spent about $300 in supplies and a few weekends renovating our front garden. It now looks 1000 times better then it previously did. I can not see a renter spending that money.
Our previous neighbor did not see the value in sprucing up the garden since he did not plan on being around much longer. Plus areas such as by kings plaza where the creep and mess of dollar vans has forced out owner occupied housing, the area is far cruddier and dirtyier then it was when everyone who lived on the block also lived their. The rule of what is acceptably dirty under the law takes precedent to what is clean enough to allow your chold to play in the garden
No, I beg to differ. I have lived in this neighborhood, as a renter,for more than 20 years. WE ALL LOOK OUT FOR EACH OTHER. It has worked well for us, even through 3 diferrent owners. Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm afraid I don't garden in front of my building. It's kind of hard to garden on a sidewalk. I don't think it's any easier if the sidewalk is outside a condo or co-op.
Now, let's get back to cleaning the street. I live in a building with about 75 apartments. Rather than each apartment being responsible for one-seventyfifth of the street in front of the building, we each pitch in to hire a landlord, among whose responsibilities is cleaning the sidewalk. As for the street itself, it's impossible to clean it as long as cars are parked on it, and cars are always parked on it except during alternate side.
In a neighborhood with mostly SFH's, with little pedestrian traffic, with few cars parked on the street around the clock, it makes much more sense for each resident to clean the street in front of his house.
Whether the apartment or the house is rented or owned is simply irrelevant to the facts.
Why bother when the airport has more convenient parking anyway?
Also there were "no parking" restrictions today in particular because of the parades.
The ceremony's usually held in the Square but I don't know what they did this year with the construction.
So the commuters have discovered it but the air travelers haven't. That's good to know for any car-owning air traveler who sometimes flies out of JFK on weekends or in the evening.
Why bother when the airport has more convenient parking anyway?
The Port Authority charges for parking, last I checked.
Invalid conclusion. Escalators work very well too for a lot of people - just look at what happens inside airports and hotels with escalator-connected mezzanines. If there were no escalators, you'd see the elevators used more often. I would use the elevator, because I have trouble using both hands with luggage.
In fact, your observations show quite clearly that you overestimated the importance of a same platform transfer.
How's that?
It shows that most people find it more convenient to shlep luggage up an escalator than to wait for an elevator.
It doesn't show that they wouldn't prefer direct service, or a cross-platform transfer, to walking up to 500 feet on an outdoor platform, riding up an escalator or elevator, juggling a MetroCard to release the AirTrain gates, and walking another 500 feet or so to the AirTrain platform itself.
Direct service is available for $30-40 by taxi or $10-15 by bus. Indirect train service, with the transfer I just described, will be available for $5-7. Indirect train/bus service is available for $2. AirTrain at Howard Beach will be useful to two small niche markets: those who don't mind spending $5-7 but can't afford $10-15, and railfans.
It's a nice station. How much did it cost? It would have been entirely unnecessary if Howard Beach were relieved of its transfer point status.
Those prices are for an individual traveler. A family of four would have to pay per person on the bus or AirTrain/subway, while the taxi remains a fixed price, less expensive than the bus and only a small premium above the $28 AirTrain/subway combination.
One thing you fail to realize is that many people do not trust the taxi cab drivers who in some cities including NYC prior to the flat fare would take people hostage on out of the way trips to drive up the fare. People would still choose the rail option
Tour operators and tourist atttractions will pay advertising dollars to be part of these packages.
Don't forget the far lower variability of travel time via an all-rail solution. I would far rather take rail to the airport than the $15 bus, not to save the money but to be pretty confident that it would take an hour, as opposed to 40 minutes in good traffic and 100 minutes in bad traffic.
That is key to the traveling public. Missing ones flight costs a hell of a lot more then a few dollars not to mention waiting for the next flight they can fit you on. On a friday evening, most flights are booked solid with business travelers going home to thier families and people heading out for the weekend
And, while the subway may be generally more reliable, if something goes wrong, there's often no way out. On Sunday, on my return trip from Howard Beach, I was stranded for almost a half hour at Euclid because of signal problems at Hoyt. Then we limped into Broadway Junction, where we were instructed to take the J or L into Manhattan (I hope the escalators were working!). A few minutes later the problem at Hoyt was cleared up and the A ran slowly the rest of the way into Manhattan, local and with residual delays. Imagine if that had happened in the other direction!
OTOH, a knowledgeable cabbie (or a cabbie with a knowledgeable passenger) can take an alternate route to avoid problems.
But it doesn't show that they need a same-platform transfer enough to avoid it, or even to kvetch about it. The only one complaining is you; no one else is. Does that tell you something?
"It's a nice station. How much did it cost? "
I'm told $75 million, but I don't know how much that covers. Does that include work the PA did, or just MTA renovations? MTA is not done yet; those orange nets are still up for a reason.
"It would have been entirely unnecessary if Howard Beach were relieved of its transfer point status."
Well, to be fair, Howard Beach station serves more than just the airport, so a fully ADA-compliant station helps local yokels too and makes the subway more accessible to them. I never begrudge anybody access.
As to your contention that it was unnecessary, takethat up with MTA. Ask MTA why they voluntarily gave up their ROW development. I told you what the most important reasons were in past posts, but you won't be satisfied unless you hear it from the horse's mouth.
Of course, if you did hear it from MTA, that would eliminate a dearly held misconception you have, so of course I know you won't write to them and ask. :0)
In reality not too many of those who need ADA facilities use the train down here. They tend to stick to the bus, if anything.
And why do you think that is? Is it because they don't like using trains, or because the train wasn't accessible, so they never had the choice? Don't confuse desire with restriction.
The subway needs more ADA-compliant station (and that is happening). As more are finished, you're going to see more of those bus riders switch to trains, and more people who now use paratransit switch to trains.
Without the airport transfer, Howard Beach would certainly not have been designated a key station. That designation would have gone elsewhere, to a busier station, or to another transfer point, that now won't be ADA-compliant. In a sense those elevators (six of them) were wasted on a transfer point that doesn't need to be a transfer point.
Not quite true. 100 stations (21.4%) are key stations, which means they are on the priority list to get ADA. This does not mean other stations will not get ADA, only that attention will be paid to them only after the first 100 conversions are fully funded.
New lines (like Second Av subway or Javits extension) are separate from these lists. These must be ADA compliant by design.
As more are finished, you're going to see more of those bus riders switch to trains
Because they don't use trains in part. A lot of the elderly I know fear them.
Secondly, there's really nothing they need the train for. They do most of their shopping on Jamaica Avenue or Queens Blvd. To do that they'd have to take the A to Bway Jct then take the J back to Woodhaven or Forest Parkway. Or even better take a 15 minute train ride on the Q11. Its even worse for Queens Blvd.
I'm not speaking in general but for the neighborhoods of Howard and Hamilton Beach where the need for an ADA compliant station wasn't a great necessity for the neighborhood people.
But is that representative in general, or even in general in Howard Beach? I think not. The proof will come in stages, as more points on the subway become accessible.
Your point about travel directions is well-taken. The A train that far out does not take local people to local shopping. Truthfully, bus service needs to be beefed up.
I also had this thought: What if the branch point for the Lefferts and Rockaway sections was rebuilt to allow Rockaway trains to travel east to Lefferts Blvd? If this were done in conjunction with a Lefferts branch extension east into Jamaica, you'd create a new market and a new ridership (and new hassles for MTA management, which thinks the A has enough branches as it is).
How could same-platform transfer have been achieved at Howard Beach?
The only design I can think of would be to swing the AirTrain down off its elevated stucture on a ramp that crossed above the Manhattan-bound A train track and then sloped down to terminate on the centre track. There would need to be island platforms on both sides of this track so that cross-platform interchange was available both from and to Manhattan. The AirTrain would open its doors on both sides.
To achieve this you would have had to remove the side platforms, slew the A train's tracks across to the outsides of the RoW, and use the space in the middle for the AirTrain track and two island platforms.
Drawbacks: Cost; disruption to the Rockaways service while you were rebuilding it; only a single terminal track for the AirTrain, restricting its frequency; and all passengers (from either the subway or the AirTrain) who actually wanted to enter or leave Howard Beach station from/to the street would still have needed escalators or elevators, since it would now be a wholly island-platform station.
And at least some of the passengers would still have a walk along the platform anyway, since the AirTrains are presumably going to be shorter trains than the A trains. Overall, probably not worth doing.
Then why is there a $5 admission fee? I didn't know airport charged admission fees.
If an airport's runway can extend over an expressway or street, then an airport's rail service can cross over subway tracks.
"I didn't know airport charged admission fees."
Well, now you know. And that's on top of the $2.50 Homeland Security and $3 (or is it $6 now?) transfer tax everybody gets charged to buy an air ticket. That is an admission fee. Overpriced popcorn, hot dogs and pizza in the airport food court are extras.
Really? It's an admission fee to the airport? So anyone visiting the airport to meet a friend, or to buy a ticket, or to pick up lost luggage from last week's flight, or simply to tour the facility is charged an admission fee?
Why doesn't the PA install turnstiles at all entrances to the airport rather than just at two of them?
Overpriced popcorn, hot dogs and pizza in the airport food court are extras.
How would I know?
Even before AirTrain the Rockaways got their fair amount of disruptions in service.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
The only thing I got to gawk at were the controls in an R46. My father was a C/R and off duty would take me along for a ride with one of his T/O friends in the T/Os cab.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
More than likely it is the fact that the *R-12* is not moved daily, but the other cars are in active revenue service, and are moved daily.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
Bill "Newkirk" is also crazy. That's just a rumor, but you didn't hear it from me !!
LENS Crazy is a "good" kind of Crazy, Bill.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, no formica on any subway car ceilings. That was a baked enamel finish. And of course paint doesn't adhere to a baked enamel finish, so that's why those cars with painted ceilings had apPEAL !
Now when the Redbirds were GOH'd and the ceilings were painted beige like the walls, they probably sprayed a primer first so the beige paint would adhere.
So much for your lesson on painting 101, class dismissed ! heh.
Bill "Newkirk"
The GOH cars are what's left of the Redbirds. The walls were tan or beige, doors redbird red and the seats charcoal gray. The R-26 thru 29's had the tan ceilings, since they were overhauled by Morrison-Knudsen. The NYCTA "in house" overhauled redbirds had the white painted ceilings.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I do, underground.goumba.net.
I agree she needs to be restored. An R142 should look this good after sitting so long.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
So stop dissing the R142's and R142A's
Everyone's got opinions and onions... some might just stink up more than others.
Pro-Redboid.
She seems to still have her SEATS and major interior parts intact..
I was about to bawl over why the fuss over the ole Jerome r10 work
motors being sliced in half if we have this beauty in 239... till
I remembered that r10 order is OLDER than r12/r14 so that cancels rant.
LOVELY shots, G... if MTA hadn't minded, I think myself (and few others
with time on their hands) wouldn't mind paying a few restorative visits to 239.
Lunch with CIPeter... what more couldja want?!?! :)
Jog your memory a bit, doc.
Remember?? Scrapped right about the same time the 62's from Robert Ray's last rizzide got choppy chopped?
IIRC hoopla was made over these two (last seen at)CONCOURSE r-14s being cut up....
Sure they could... weren't they called platform shavers? They were the lead car on certain trains to teach people about standing too close to the platform edge.
#3 West End Jeff
Thirteen days and counting...
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know much about the status of the R-22 work motor.
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
3 added to the number to denote work service.
-Stef
R-12 5782 and R-14 5871 are on the Transit Museum Roster, but have not been restored. These were the former CI Fire School Cars.
As for the work motor in the middle, that should be R-22 7486.
-Stef
Jimmy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
My Hagstrom Atlas calls zip 11368 Corona, and shows the LIRR Shea Stadium station as being in that zip.
Now if they had run it to Woodside and then pick up the #7 - that might have been something.
From the SOUND of things in this post it sounds to me like all
NYer's ARE riding that there shuttle giddyup.
Even from Upstate... I can just IMAGINE the madness.
And those old Perey turnstiles at Willets Point are neat, but why on earth are they still there?
Incidentally, I saw a handful of people accidentally sneak up the ramp to the NB 7 side platform and get in for free.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
They aren't there anymore.
In an unrelated matter, there's now a fare control array in my kitchen. Sorry, no Metrocards.
Pay toilet :). Fortunately, I have an unlimited.
DUUUUUUUDE... If you serve Double Cheeseburgers at 2 am to food-craved SubTALKers.... I'm game.
Token payment guaranteed.
Announcing a surprise added trip by Peggy Darlington of the IND Fulton Street and Rockaway park and Far Rockaway Lines on SUNDAY 6/15/03. Meet at 9am at McDonald's in Penn Station near the LIRR ticket windows.
Stations include the following (* denotes a complex station):
14/8th *
Canal
WTC*
Broadway Nassau * NO PHOTOS HERE PLEASE!
High Street- NO PHOTOS HERE PLEASE
Hoyt Schermerhorn
Lafayette
Franklin*
Nostrand
Ralph
Utica
80th Street
Rockaway Blvd- LUNCH STOP. There is Pizza and white castle and Dunkin Donuts
Aqueduct North Conduit
Howard Beach
Broad Channel
Far Rock
Playland (Beach 98)
Rock Park
in event of a G.O. we will still do the trip but change stations on the peninsula.
COST: One Fun Pass and your lunch. Please note due to heavy police presence (like 5-6 and sometimes even more!) no photos at Broadway Nassau and High Street. Due to length there will be no extended trip but we might return via LIRR Far Rockaway ( Short Walk from NYCT Far
Rockaway, If we do this we must do Rock Park First. This way those from L.I. can change at Jamaica and others continue to Penn Station.)
Trip will run rain or shine, hot or cold, and even if there is a G.O. No reservation needed. Just show up.
AND why not??
Peace,
ANDEE
But who wants to hold up a tour while the police check the ID of all the participants?
Tom
And I wouldn't be lying either! Actually I am! My website started out as a school project, and photos were the neccessary content! And we're still creating further web-related projects, and these photos I take continue to be neccessary content (just displayed differently or styled/coded differently).
Maybe we should invite Marty to come along to explain the artistic value of each photo setup and how to pick locations for dramatic effect. :-)
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peggy knows it is not illegal to take photos but sometimes it is best to "surrender" your rights than risk being stopped by a police officer
doing their job. Peggy wishes you could take all the photos you want but has to balance the desires of some (photographers) vs the chance of being stopped by the Police or Transit Supervision such as happened at Essex Street. Photos can be taken at any other station . At Hoyt we will stay on the platform level, again due to heavy police and supervision presence(there is a police precinct in the mezzanine along with a major Transit field office).
Peggy asks you to choose from these two options:
1- Obey the rules and attend the trip
2- decide not to obey and do not attend the trip or get stopped by police and the trip wont wait for you.
NEW TRIP POLICY: All those attending should follow any restrictions set forth by the tour host. If they choose not to follow restrictions they can host their own tour or risk being asked to leave the tour.
You already can. Peggy doesn't want trouble, which I can understand.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Count me in on this trip too.
wayne
Does Peggy work for White Castle or something? j/k Why do all our trips happen to converge in a White Castle? Yuck! After seeing the results of a certain scientific experiment regarding fast-food hamburgers, White Castle's have a much higher concentration of bacteria, I'll never eat there again. Maybe I'll bring my own lunch.
And as to the "NO PHOTOS HERE PLEASE"-you have just as much chance of running into cops at 4 of the others listed.
Anyway, I'll be there for sure, that'll be a great note on which to end the school year (the Friday before, I believe, is the last day of classes). If there is any "extended tour" I'll be there as well as long as the ticket price is not ridiculous. Depending on the time I'd probably change at Jamaica for the train to ENY, and look out for Woodhaven.
Hmmm, I am going to also try to make it. I do have to work that day, but I am going to try to switch with someone, so if I can do that, I certainly will be there.
Eating at White Castle provides an umistakable, albeit hard to describe, naughty thrill, sort of like pawing through a smuggled copy of Playboy when one is 12 years old.
In case anyone is wondering, at Rockaway Blvd there is:
Crown Fried Chicken.
Friends II Pizzeria.
Chinese Restaurant.
Diner.
and Bagel store.
"Next stop - indigestion."
wayne
You're assuming that the "beef" at White Castle actually comes from cows ...
Yes, but while the tour will stop at Rockaway Blvd and Rockaway Park, not to mention passing through Rockaway Ave, it won't be going anywhere near Rockaway Pkwy :).
(But if experience is an indicator, the group might ride an R-38 A-train with signs mysteriously set for Canarise...)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You never know!
You overstate the case. You are excluded only if you have outstanding felony warrants or your conditions of probation prohibit consorting with known foamers. :-)
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A white castle doesnt sound so good to most of you, im sure.
Unfortunately, 6/15 is not such a good day for me.
At Rock Park, there are a number of places on B116th. If you walk north to Newport, you have the Rockaway Sunset Diner (run by the same people as the Beach Club, 1 block south at the beach). There is Ciros Pizzeria, near a new Carvel on the Beach block. And if you want Really GOOD pizza, go to B129th st. (funpass friendly) to Papas pizza, or East Meets West chinese food. I think i know rockaway.
Please post that peggy has moved lunch to Lefferts but wishes to remind those attending that the group actually asked for White Castle on the last tour! I do not work for White Castle and have never worked for White Castle.
When I was there (about 10 years ago), they still had the original BMT porcelain signs there at Lefferts. They were blue backround with white letters. I doubt they are still there now.
It would be great in a way if they had a Mott-Rock Pk shuttle, so we can go through the wye. That's one shuttle I dont mind. :-)
That is a fun shuttle. I've been to Rock Park and Far Rock. plenty of times, but I did the route through the wye for the first time just a few months ago with Choo Choo and David Greenberger. It actually ran pretty good, and A service to Lefferts also didn't seem to bad that day either.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
She is a station agent for NYCT who has an incredibly detailed knowledge of the stations around the system, and she occasionally (on vacations, usually!) leads public tours. You'll also see her name if you browse through the station-by-station tours on this site.
The tour will take place but in light of official info I sent from MTA I ask anyone wishing to take photos to call Ms.Anderson at 718-694-5160. She is at 130 Livingaston, 3rd Floor- Community Relations. While I will not ban photo taking I advise anyone wishing to take photos that it is extremely high risk and you could be detained and as such the tour will be held up. Anyone detained by police or Transit will be left for themselves and the tour will move on. My suggestions for photos is stick to remote stations and be quick while there is no train. Remember- plain clothes officers can be anywhere and their dress varies from business suits to long term homeless. I once challenged a :"homeless" customer who I spotted entering a closed off area. It turned out I challenged a cop (who agreed I did the right thing.)
QUESTION: Do not e-mail a response. A Poll will be taken the day of the tour with this question: If you agree not to photograph Broadway Nassau and High Street these two stations will be added back to the tour. There is alot at Broadway Nassau including Artwork in three locations
The question for the poll will be:: Do you wish to see Broadway Nassau and High Street with the stipulation that no photos will be taken. Yes means we will see those stations. No means we will skip those stations.
I too lament the loss of freedom in this country.
the fate of future tours will depend on group behavior on this tour. Cooperate- more tours. Cause problems- This is the last tour. The choice is yours. Keep watching subtalk for news of possible future tours which could include:
Concourse/Jerome
White Plains/Dyre/Pelham
Astoria/Corona-Flushing
bay Ridge/West End/ Sea Beach
Culver/Brighton
Don't Disappoint. Represent.
Let's BEHAVE.
Peggy is being VERY generous (this coming from 1 whose YET to attend a Peggy trip)
but from the sounds of it, I'll want to attend more after this 1.
Don't Disappoint. Represent
Is this a contact we can call to get clarification on photography/video policy?
--Mark
Have a great weekend..........
Yes, everyone, do enjoy the remainder of the Memorial Day weekend. If you're in College Point, makre sure to attend the parade.
Are those Metrocard turnstiles for Airtrain ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh, and the annunciator is earsplittingly loud. Turn down the volume, please!
I didn't see a PA booth. I only saw one booth in the middle, fronting on the outside-fare-control segment.
How the airtrain will use metrocards, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how it happens. Likely their turnstiles will operate to a different fare than the subways or the buses. I guess we won't know until before the airtrain opens.
makes no sense
NONE
The booths are occupied by employees of two different organizations. Probably neither wishes to pay for work that benefits the other.
Tom
Unfortunitly due to union rules the MTA can not pick and choose who workes at that particualr booth if such a person with those skills exist in the ranks of S/A
Could you imagine the scandal if the TA shorted the PA one day or the other way around?
It does not matter who's clerk handles the sale.
If indeed thier is to be two sets of fare sales booths. This is just another example of government waste.
The money could better be spent on other more important areas.
This is untrue. The trains will still not be able to accelerate to a much higher speed. Each stop is only a few seconds and deceleration and acceleration adds several more.
wayne
Why then did the BMT offer pass-through service at 36th St.? For alleviating over crowding on the shorter trains?
If it is the case that in order to smooth out the schedule elsewhere on the D/W and N lines that they would otherwise arrive simotaneously at 36th, then it would certainly be worth having one or the other (preferably the N, since the D can at least approach the signal at slow speed while the N is passing, whereas the reverse is impossible) skip 36th St.
Dang timers! I thought that by now the original rationale for their implementation had grown less important. In some ways, the 4th Ave. stretch between 59th and Pacific is the equivalent of the Queens Blvd. line. At least, in the number of different trains running there. And the four tracks of course. But it just isn't given the chance to fully utilize those tracks. I recall (in the `90s?) when the signaling system was completely replaced on the line. It never seemed to result in better service. Too bad; those trains should be rippin' up and down that line.
Now come down to NJ, PATCO express and special trains rip through platforms at 65mph, horn wailing. At the very least it's a good Doppler Effect demonstration!
Hear you. Some of that is on the LIRR platforms. You gotta experience standing on an elevated Bablylon Branch station as a Montauk express comes burning down the rails! Or even the electric non-stop runs. I've been on those plaforms as expresses pass on both sides. Whhoooooooossssshhhhh!!!!!!
Red: Regular service
Orange: Vienna to Addison Road or New Carrollton
Blue: Huntington to Rosslyn
Yellow: Franconia-Springfield to Mount Vernon Square
Green: Greenbelt or Fort Totten to Branch Avenue
If any of the DC people are up for an informal gathering to get some interesting pictures (I want to see some of these destination signs), I will be in town for the second time when they are running this service pattern and the first time I was not able to ride the subway that day.
I think we're going to DC for the 4th. Pam has to work that day, but the store closes at 6 or 7, which is good since its usually so hot and it gets old sitting on the mall for hours on end. I was thinking of just walking from Pentagon City over to the Pentagon and take the 13A instead of dealing with the metro and then walking to Farragut Square afterwards and take the 38B home. No sense being on the metro with those lunatics after the fireworks are over!
Make sure you put Gallery Place lower level (F01) on the itinerary. I was there the last year the Green line shortcut was used on Independence Day. Trains were being operated on 90 second headways in the early afternoon running alternating Green U Street (E03), Anacostia (F06) and Blue Mount Vernon Square (E01) Franconia-Springfield (J03) trains.
John
hmmmm---Yellow Line---FRANCONIA-SPRINGFIELD to Mt. Vernon Sq---IMHO, this is the way it should've been all along--oh yeah, it was this way in the original plans---it should be that way all the time and let the Blue terminate at Huntington the way it was intended, afterall, this only happened due to a car shortage--when will they finally realize that reverting back to the original plan is long overdue.
Mark
p.s.--John, the kids went nuts over the maps, Thanks...You Da Man!!
John
I total agree.
I also think WMATA should procure enough car to run Yellow line trains all the way to Greenbelt (E10) as originally planed.
What few people don’t know, with the standard line configuration used today one can travel from any station in the system to any other station and only have the transfer from one train to another no more then once.
"p.s.--John, the kids went nuts over the maps, Thanks...You Da Man!!
My pleasure.
John
John
1999. "Millennium Trails" is a US DOT initiative; commemorative names were assigned to various trail-like corridors. See the original press release announcing the National Millennium Trails, and the International Express description.
Mark
This was the PC change from the unofficial nickname, "Orient Express" used after the influx of Asians to the Flushing area. The fact that it runs through many ethnic neighborhoods qualities it as an "International Local" or "International Route."
Tom
Whew, I'm glad those politicians are off doing something important.
Flushing: Asian (Chinese, Korean)
Corona: Latino
Jackson Heights: Latino, Indian, Arab, Pakistani
Woodside: Irish, German
Sunnyside: Irish, Korean, Latino
If you want to go to South Ferry, you will have to chnage for the downtown train on the other platform.
: ) Elias
0: )
Saying UPTOWN AND THE BRONX gives SOME distinction to the line's origin and the areas
where it comes from (save for, it all winds up in the humongous
mixing pot that is MANHATTAN--just like it's 2 3 4 5 cousins).
The 1 is distinct because after 96st... it's all alone on the creek
voyage up the UPPER WEST SIDE (UPtown) and ending up in it's own
little 'bread-basket' part of the BRONX.
I guess the 9 was OOS whilst the slogan was drawn up.
UPPER EAST SIDE isn't primarily called UPtown since those destinations
usually have people saying "EAST" followed by the STREET NUMBER.
"That's on EAST 63rd STREET.... and she's on EAST 77th"
Going somewhere on the WEST SIDE.. people say "You need to go uptown".
And yes, the 2 4 5 and 6 serve the BRONX... but lest remember there's
SOUTH BRONX / NORTH BRONX / EAST BRONX... on the UWS it's just 'BRONX'.
Final (assumed) Answer.
1SF9
They say "Uptown and the Bronx," not "Uptown to the Bronx." If you want something to complain about, complain about the A tees, which forget that the southern terminals are in Queens. (At least they don't make the mistake of assuming that Inwood is in the Bronx.)
Mark
I was asked why do I think 6th Avenue would be just as popular as B'way on the weekends. The old Brighton D have more destinations and places you can get to as opposed to the proposed 24/7 Q in Manhattan without having to transfer. Each destination is within either one long block or three short ones. Here's a comparison.
Traditional D Train:
Chinatown/Little Italy (Grand St.)
NoHo/Soho (B'way-Lafayette)
Washington Square/NYU (West 4th St)
Herald Sq./MSG/Empire State Bldg/Penn Station (34th St)
Times Square (42nd St-6th Ave)
Rockefeller Center (47-50th St.)
Columbus Circle/Central Park (59th St)
125 Street (Harlem)
And of course Yankee Stadium
Proposed Q Train:
Chinatown/Little Italy (Canal St.)
Union Square (14th Street)
Herald Square/MSG/Empire State Bldg/Penn Station (34th Street)
Times Square/Port Authority (42nd St)
Columbus Circle/Central Park (57 Street)
As we've already established, the Brighton Line has more riders than ANY other BMT Southern Division Line. Why cut down the options that the majority of these riders have? In a couple of days I'll post the Post-MB plan that I've been working on. Hint: the D will still have its old route while the B will now have 24/7 service without much of a change.
Chinatown/Little Italy (Grand St.)
Broadway is closer to the part that people want to visit. Grand Street is the center of the workhorse part of Chinatown. There are more Chinese people living along the West End line than along the Brighton line.
NoHo/Soho (B'way-Lafayette)
Washington Square/NYU (West 4th St)
You can count the last two as one, and Union Square is in the same general area.
Herald Sq./MSG/Empire State Bldg/Penn Station (34th St)
Times Square (42nd St-6th Ave)
And Broadway is closer to Times Square, you forgot that
Rockefeller Center (47-50th St.)
Far more popular on weekdays than on weekends.
Columbus Circle/Central Park (59th St)
Columbus Circle by itself is a pretty lame destination.
You also forgot that 57th Street serves Carnegie Hall.
125 Street (Harlem)
St. Nicholas is at the edge of Harlem.
And of course Yankee Stadium
Only valuable 81 times out of the year and only during the summer months. But then I'm hostile against baseball now since a lot of people seem to think of it as a valuable public service.
Meanwhile the transfers offered to every other line (except 8th) from Broadway are far more convenient. This opens up the Broadway line to a broader field of destinations accessible by one transfer.
Mostly, all of your "facts" are only to justify keeping the D on Brighton for the sake of it remaining the "D."
I say go back to calling it the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railroad, remove it to the surface, power it by steam, and run it to the LIRR terminal on Atlantic and Flatbush.
Yeah, I can attest to that. I once went to Rock on the weekend, a ghostown, most everything closed.
Union Square is about six blocks north and a block east of Washington Sq. and most of NYU's buildings. That's not convenient walking distance. NoHo and SoHo (which is around E. Houston St) is some 10 plus blocks south of Union Square. In both cases the proposed Q train would force riders to transfer on weekends to reach there.
42 St-6th Ave is actually less than a block from Times Square. Heck one of its exits is so far west on 42 Street, it's a short walk to Times Square.
Rockefeller Center: It's pretty dead during the summer and most of fall weekends, but not during the winter and early spring months when the skating rink is open. I could also throw in Radio City Music Hall here if you're going with Carnegie Hall.
Columbus Circle: You're right, it's a lame destination. I should take that part out. Just say Central Park.
125 Street-St Nicholas: Is in Harlem. The station itself isn't far from the Apollo and the 125 St mall is also there.
Justification: I wouldn't have a big problem if the B was the 24/7 Brighton Local, 6th Ave Express train to 205 Street. Yeah my arguments are partly selfish, but it IS true that the MTA proposal would cut the amount of direct weekend destinations down for Brighton riders, which again are the majority of BMT Southern Division riders. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
No, I'm not calling for the return of streetcars, or the return of the horse drawn buggies or Roman chariots here; just the return of the 2000 D Train.
I HATE that proverb.
Broadway Locals MUST operate via the 60th Street Tunnel and the Montague Tunnel.
To do otherwise requires them to switchlines (and pass in front of one another~~~ thus Slowing the Line down.
(Q) Could run via Queensboro and the 63rd Street tunnel, but then the (N) must also use the 63rd St. Tunnel, and while Queens certainly *does* need the extra trains, they apparently do not thave the capacity to run two extra lions.
If the (R) ran Astoria to 94th Street, then it would have no yard to call its home.
Elias
Broadway Locals MUST operate via the 60th Street Tunnel and the Montague Tunnel.
To do otherwise requires them to switch lines (and pass in front of one another~~~ thus Slowing the Line down.
Um, your 3rd paragraph contradicts the first 2. Your third paragrpah is also correct now AND in 2004. Now the W and in 2004 the N runs express but goes to Astoria. And of course the switching of tracks does cause slowdowns. But usually they're not too bad. They'll be even less bad in 2004 with fewer Brighton-57th trains on the express tracks.
Run the B 24/7 to Bedford Pk. (except perhaps duing midnight hours) as express on the Brighton. That way Brighton riders have the same choices to either Broadway or 6th Avenue that 4th Avenue riders have and similar to the C allowing A express service except during midnight hours...Makes sense but then again since providing good and frequent express service in Brooklyn is not an MTA priority, no matter how crowded the trains become, it won't happen and so Brighton riders get the shaft.
Being the resident subway expert, people ask me all the time whats going on with the trains. Since the switchover from 6th ave service to broadway service in 2001, most people love the broadway service better then the 6th ave service.
That is why more frequent 4 car opto service is such a good deal for riders
I hear that. It's a God damn curse, is it not?
Peace,
ANDEE
But that's the whole point...apparently the plan does not have the D stopping at DeKalb when the B is not running so passengers on the Brighton line will not be getting a simple same platform transfer to 6th Avenue service. And there are some on this board who think it is no big deal to have to walk up and down stairs at 34th St. or a long long corrior past the IRT platforms to transfer at Atlantic. The MTA must address this issue for many Brighton riders need 6th Avenue service and please none of this what did they do pre-Christie St. Since 1967 Brighton riders have had 6th Avenue service coupled with either Broadway service or simple same platform transfers to Broadway sevice. It is the arrogance of MTA that just crunches numbers and doesn't care about the needs of all the people (see what they did to G riers on the pretext that Queens - Manhattan riders are more important) to see their non caring attitudes; especially to many Brooklyn riders...
The community prsented an excellent case why they were being screwed when the V train ended G service on the Queens Blvd. line and they were absolutely correct but the MTA was determined to screw the G riders because after all their service did not go into Manhattan; it was only important for residents of Brooklyn and Queens. Don't let anybody tell you the MTA is not basically Manhattan oriented so what if the outer boroughs have to wait long intervals for trains as long as Manhattan has their train service they simply don't care.
Next stop on the consistent and well known N is New Utrecht Avenue. All aboard.
I don't buy that for a minute.
That is why more frequent 4 car opto service is such a good deal for riders
RIGHT :-\! Anyway why do you keep coming up with the 4 car OPTO thing, the Q is not that low in ridership sheesh.
NYCT took an actual poll of actual Brighton riders. Rush hour riders had a slight preference for Broadway. Weekend riders had a very strong preference for Broadway.
This is not speculation. This is fact. These are the actual preferences of actual Brighton riders.
You are speculating.
Transfer at DeKalb if you want 6th Avenue service. I'm sure the weekend D will stop there.
Let's hope so. Though if they don't think it through, there will be serious delays. If D and N stop at Dekalb, first they have to merge with the R for a short distance and then with the Q.
Therefore I guess the Q and R need to be pretty well synchronized to arrive together at Dekalb, so that the D and N can take up time slots the Q and R aren't using.
wayne
The D obviously won't stop at DeKalb on weekdays, nor is there any pressing reason for it to stop at DeKalb on weekdays, since anyone on a Q who wants 6th Avenue can easily transfer to a B. The issue only arises when the B doesn't run -- nights and weekends.
The issue is very simple and can be resolved very easily...
1. B service should run the same hours C service runs on the 8th Avenue providing Brighton riders direct 6th Avenue service and express service at all hours except midnight to 6 AM and/or
2. Whenever the B is not running, the D must stop at DeKalb to provide direct same platform service to Brighton riders and that should be only between midnight and 6 AM.
I don't know any sane person who could disagree with the above based on passenger volume and to just shrug and say, for example that NYU students whose closest station is W 4 St could just as easily be served by 8th St. (a local station requiring an upstairs downstairs change at Canal St and still a long walk) or Union Square (an even longr walk) or an absurd transfer of walking 3 o 4 blocks at Atlantic Avenue to Pacific St. shows total ignorance.
This would also resolve the Yankee Stadium problem as folks could take the B at 161st Street after night or weekend Yankee game.
Not anymore.
They did consider it. The idea was rejected. Unless new facts come to light, there's no reason for them to waste time considering it again.
Source of info, please?
"Unless new facts come to light, there's no reason for them to waste time considering it again."
And what 'facts' might these be?
Common sense, and posts by "David" (with no last name) that all options were being considered.
How could you seriously think that the option didn't even come up? These questions are periodically considered as a matter of course; certainly they'll be considered while a major new service plan is being developed anyway.
And what 'facts' might these be?
An increase in weekend traffic at express stations over current volumes is the most obvious example. Other possibilities include changes in track layout (planned or unplanned).
Let's analyze the situation ourselves. How crowded is the weekend Q, from top to bottom? In the absence of official loading statistics, I'll relate my recurring experiences. (Since I've only been on the Q once since it's been moved to the tunnel, and the bridge will be open on weekends next year, I'm ignoring the temporary tunnel diversion.)
From 57th to Canal, Q trains are moderately crowded, with the R and W (N and R in the future) assisting on the local. Nothing will change here under the new plan, except that some Brooklyn passengers, who now take the Q and transfer at DeKalb, will be on the 6th Avenue D. So Q crowding in Manhattan will be reduced slightly.
Over the bridge, Q trains are at their crowding peak; many Q passengers get off at DeKalb and Atlantic to transfer to other lines. The new plan has N trains also going over the bridge on weekends. Q crowding over the bridge will be reduced greatly.
From Atlantic to Church, Q trains are still moderately crowded. South of Church they're not crowded at all. No changes are planned here.
So the only section of the line that might possibly be considered overcrowded is between Atlantic and Church. That's four stops, or three on the express. Do you really think NYCT should spend the money running a full-length line so that some people don't have to stand for four stops?
Not that it's overcrowded by NYCT loading guidelines. Other lines are more crowded -- look at the A, F, L, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. If NYCT had money available to increase weekend service somewhere, why should that money be spent on the Brighton line when other lines suffer from worse crowding for greater distances?
You asked about the Fulton Street line. On weekends, the A just south of Euclid is much more crowded than the Q just south of Church. Church is the first express stop; Euclid is the last.
If there were some way to turn trains at Church, and the Franklin shuttle could accomodate at least half-length trains, I'd suggest extending the shuttle to Church as an express. Anyone needing to transfer to the IRT or IND anyway would gladly take the shuttle if it came first, reducing the load on the Q itself, and a short extension of an existing line wouldn't cost much to provide.
Interesting thought, but it appears that the FS would have to run all the way to Kings Highway.
On the Q trains, there are NO SEATS and plenty of standees S/B until the train reaches Newkirk Ave. The trains are crowded because you might have a slightly large count of customers from Kings Highway on some trains, particulary when several feeder bus routes (B2, B31 and B7/82) pull in at their respective bus stops at KH, dropping off passengers.
Again, Kings Highway on weekends is just as busy as Church Avenue. Newkirk Ave also has good passenger counts too, especially on Saturdays and a decent holiday.
Maybe in your car. I usually ride up front, and the first car empties out at Church. Perhaps some of the passengers bound for Newkirk could be persuaded to move up.
And so what that there are NO SEATS? I usually have to stand on the 1 as early as 8:00 Sunday morning. NYCT loading guidelines call for some standees.
Church Ave is the only station on the Brighton Line (save for the P/T exit at Voorhies Ave on Sheepshead Bay station.) that has the exit at the first car. Newkirk Ave can be exited closest from 3 or 4th car, most other stations are either 6th car or C/R position cars when exiting. That is why those cars are crowded.
And you would think that the people would use more than the first set of doors when exiting at Church Ave, they don't. Some people run on station platforms to the front end of the train, acting like it is the ONLY car they can exit from.
That's not a problem. Anyone who doesn't like riding in crowds can move to the front of the train.
I remember David's posts. He has generously shared with us much factual information concerning paid fares at various stations on weekdays and weekends. I thought that you might have additional information.
The post by David that you are referring to concerned weekend Brighton Express service versus no weekend Brighton Express service. This option, he told us, was dropped early on in planning. To my recollection, this was due to the need for periodic repairs/maintenance. The best way to accomplish this would be on weekends, when there is less demand for service. It cannot be done at night in residential neighborhoods. So doing it on weekends is indeed a common sense option. And I accept that.
But in my post and in my previous ones, I advocated having Brighton Express service during the summer months. Not all year. Just the summer months. It is my belief that necessary maintenance and repairs can be accomplished during the other 8 or 9 months.
David did not mention that the summer option had been considered. And as far as I know (and apparently as far as you know), the TA has not considered this option. And I am not willing to assume that "common sense" means that the TA has considered this option. Maybe yes, maybe no.
We have been informed by the press that ridership levels are so high now as to equal those of 1953. In 1953, there was Brighton Express service 7 days a week during the summer.
From info that David posted, I recall comparing fares collected along the Brighton line on weekdays and on weekends. Brighton Beach had a surprisingly higher proportion of Brighton line fares collected on weekends as compared with weekdays. David was unable to provide us with the breakdown of fares collected at each station during summer vs. the rest of the year. I suspect, but I don't have factual information, that Brighton Beach's unusual proportion of weekend fares will turn out to be due to summer traffic.
I respect your personal observations. But have your personal observations included "Sunny Summer Sundays" on the Brighton Line?
"You asked about the Fulton Street line."
Sorry, that wasn't me. But I'll take you up on that briefly, viz. my suspicion that Brighton Beach is a very busy station on summer weekends. Brighton Beach is at the end of the line, is it not?
Actually, that's not the post I'm referring to. I don't remember such a post at all. (I'm not saying it didn't exist -- just that I didn't read it or I don't remember it.)
I'm referring to a number of posts of his, regarding service plans in general, that all options were being considered.
The upcoming rehabs at local stations are another factor, certainly. But rehabs can't be put on hold for the entire summer, and the basic issue -- that Q trains are simply not terribly crowded on weekends to begin with -- still holds. I listed nine lines that tend to get much more crowded than the Q on weekends. If NYCT were interested in increasing service somewhere to reduce crowding, why would it be on the Q and not on, say, the 4, which is much more crowded than the Q and retains those crowds for more than a few stops?
Ridership may be at 1953 levels but that doesn't mean that ridership has reverted to 1953 patterns. In particular, Coney Island is a much less popular destination. The most crowded lines are elsewhere. Why run extra Brighton service when what's really needed is extra, e.g., L service?
The Rockies go on a funk whenever they hit the road. At Coors Field, they're almost invincible. On the road, fuhgedaboudit. They always leave their bats in Denver.
NYC DOT has forced your line into something out of a Dr. Seuss book (see Sea Beach go....slow, slow, slow). And my sympathies are with you, because after the Brighton (and the Franklin, as its spur), I'm all out for BMT. And just like you, I don't like them screwing around with my line. Those geniuses at the TA are always switching Brighton letters around. They switch them around so fast it's amazing that they're even able to keep up.
I wish I could get to the big city in July, but right now, I don't think that I'll be able to make it before October. I have an even longer trip to get there than you do so I must consider my visitations quite carefully well ahead of time. But I hope to meet up with you there one of these days. Just don't ask me to ride with you on the Slow Beach through the Montague Tunnel.
The Brighton Line is my favorite line and I BLAST away at the Slime-Bitch line. However, it is true.
Oh, one other item. Are you by any chance planning on going to go to the public hearing to present your modifications of the TA's 2004 plan? Just thinking....it might do a whole lot more good there than having been posted here.
I don't think 3 minutes will be enough time to adequately present and defend a service proposal, and I'm not sure if the planners themselves will even be at the hearing. Instead of bringing it up at the hearing, I think I'll email NYCT.
Good idea. It may never reach the decision-makers, but then again, there's nothing to lose. Your plan is worth the try.
Every Manhattan Bridge viable alternative I've seen is either more costly than the one proposed, or solves one "problem" by introducing others (to say nothing of the alternatives that are operationally impossible).
For the MTA to change their minds, you have to either persuade them that the extra cost is justified (if you're proposing a more costly solution), or that the equities favor inconveniencing a different set of riders than the current proposal does.
Unlikely to be treated seriously are solutions which take the approach that nothing else matters, as long as riders from such-and-such place get what they want.
Of course, and that's never been my approach. I think I've become pretty knowledgeable about the system as a whole over the past few years, and I've come to realize more than ever that the subway system has to function as a system.
As I've said before, I think the NYCT plan is overall a sound one. I don't think it's perfect, though. In particular, it passes up the opportunity to correct indirectly related problems outside of southern Brooklyn. The example I've mentioned most often (but not the only one I have in mind) is the inadequacy of night/weekend CPW local service, for which I have a number of solutions to offer (some of which have additional small advantages elsewhere). Perhaps the planners won't agree with my solutions. Perhaps the planners won't agree that there's a problem to begin with.
But if you write in, then at least someone can read what you have to say, and there is always a chance you're not the only one to make the same comment. And so a change might be made. It has been known to happen.
No joke ... if *ANYTHING* of merit in ANY political situation (not just this) is IMPORTANT to you, then PUT IT IN WRITING and SIGN it. It'll be worth 1,000 or MORE "testimonies."
According to the 2004 service plan, the B line will be operating weeknights until 11 PM (about the same as the current plan). So how do you think CPW local service is inadequate on weekday evenings (with 2 lines) and nights (when only one line is really needed, the A local)?
Nights, the general practice now, when two routes cover a line, is to run them both local, to keep local headways down and to to reduce the need for late night transfers. (Traveling from 6th Avenue to a CPW local station late at night can entail up to 40 minutes of waiting.) The only exceptions are the Q on Broadway and the D on CPW. I haven't seen any compelling reasons (or even uncompelling reasons) that the Q and D should remain exceptions.
If that is the case, then you might as well walk 2 blocks from 6th ave to 8th ave rather than wait 20 minutes at a 6th Ave station and another 20 at 59th st/CC for the A local. And I do think that 59th st would hold the A local for the connection to the arriving D on the express track if the A would ordinary leave before the D pulls in.
I'd riot. :(
Cuz we don't have to.
Sure you know an uncompelling reason. So that one particular night-time D-riding Subtalker doesn't get woken up by the bing-bong at each station on CPW.
That "problem" could be solved by running R-40's (from the B) or R-32's (from the C) on the nighttime D.
Beautiful summary of your plan, David. That is why it is so important you present it to the appropriate TA personnel.
The L train schedule does indicate that trains run every 6 minutes of Saturday and 8 minutes on Sunday. So a service increase was done on the L line.
Do you read what you post?
How could you put a "line on a line" (your words not mine).
The D in Brooklyn used to have greater passengers only because it ran on the Brighton.
If you put a particular ROUTE on a more heavily used line, that becomes the more heavily used ROUTE.
Would the B run fewer TPH just because it's the B? What percentage of passengers in Brooklyn do you think give a flying fig what happens to the train after 59th Street?
The upper Manhattan local to 6th Ave has had fewer riders and tph than the Brighton express, while the 24 hour Concourse line has had more riders than the West End line.
So you are merging two pairs of lines with unequal loadings at the 2 ends. In rush hours, the new B would do fine with 7 tph at the north end but need 10 tph at the south end, while the new D will need 10 tph at the north end but do fine with 7 tph at the south end.
I guess in midday the new B will have 6 tph (since it is supplemented by the Q on the Brighton and by the C on CPW), while the new D will probably have 8 tph. So there is only a rush hour imbalance, and that's easy to deal with anyway.
The D in Brooklyn used to have greater passengers only because it ran on the Brighton.
If you put a particular ROUTE on a more heavily used line, that becomes the more heavily used ROUTE.
My mistake, it happens sometimes ;-). Well if this plan sticks, they should add some trains to the B via express since it will be running on a busier line.
Obviously if you want to go to NYU a 6th Ave train over the bridge is better than a Broadway train.
But the surveys say that Brighton riders prefer Broadway. That doesn't mean that those Brighton riders going to NYU prefer Broadway; it just means that those Brighton riders going to NYU aren't enough to tip the balance in favor of 6th Ave.
Huge numbers of Brighton riders switch to the Lex at Union Square. I'm often going the other way and have to avoid getting trampled. I think that is what tipped the balance for Broadway over 6th Ave.
The problem, if you have't read the whole thread besides the sill exchanges is apparetly under the plan, there is no guarantee the D will stop at DeKalb when the B isn't running so passengers on the Brighton who need 6th Avenue (and there are many if not the majority) have the undesirable change at Atlantic which adds about 20 minutes to the trip or the equally inconvenient change at 34th Street rather than their own service or an easy trasfer at DeKalb. OTOH 4th Avenue riders have their choice N(Broadway) or D(6th Avenue) with convenient same platform changes at many stations.
And nobody asked me or our friends our prefernces. I still don't understand how many still claim the overwhelming majority of Brighton riders prefer Broadway. Also this supposed poll took place at a time Brighton service is entirely Broadway; I guarantee if the poll had taken place before the closing of the Bridge, it would have shown something else
Obviously. It would also be incredibly flawed as a result. Before the closing of the bridge, a large group of people would have expressed preference for 6th Avenue exclusively because they never remember Brighton-Broadway service.
At least after the switch most people have experienced both routes.
And I'm sure if someone did not like the new arrangement and was asked, they would say so.
Thta's been impossible since 1990, and even if a poll were taken then, its results would be invalid now, since ridership patterns have changed in the past 13 years.
Next best is to take a poll under one service pattern when the other service pattern under consideration is still fresh in most riders' minds -- i.e., shortly after a service change. Any rider who prefers the current arrangement will say so; any rider who's angry about the current arrangement will say so. Any regular Brighton rider who rode the Brighton line before 7/22/01 remembers the old D and Q quite well.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
When do you think a poll should have been taken?
Would you care to answer mine? When do you think such a poll should have been taken?
To answer your question precisely, theoretically at least, it would be/have been best to do the poll when the Brighton had both services available. This has not been possible for some time. Other than that, I just don't know when it would have been best to take that poll.
Come on. Do you really think that if you asked a regular Brighton rider for the past two years about 6th Avenue service, you'd get a blank stare in response? Of course not. You'd probably get a complaint, either about the current service pattern or about the former one. New Yorkers love to complain.
To answer your question precisely, theoretically at least, it would be/have been best to do the poll when the Brighton had both services available. This has not been possible for some time. Other than that, I just don't know when it would have been best to take that poll.
So NYCT should rely on a poll taken in 1986 to determine the best service pattern for 2004?
I'm wondering, if it would be appropriate to bring up the idea of a weekend Brighton Express during the summer months. Seems to me it would solve to a great extent a few problems brought up by others in this thread....
Hey, I almost always come up with a coherent plan. If I'm coming to the hearing I'm coming in guns blazing (figuratively of course).
So enjoy the giggles, IND gets final chuckle. :)
Or "Neener-neener."
But geez, Unca Steve ... that's just plain MEAN. If I was still working the D though, knowing there'd be a SeaBits in tow behind me, I'd be watching my timers and watching my speed VERY carefully, after all ... if there's an (N) behind me, no reason to speed up. Heh.
Back east though, a warm sunny day is SPECIAL. :)
I do agree it will be strange seeing "D"s on the West End and "B"s on the Brighton. But the reasoning is the combination of two part-time services into one - the weekday "B" and Slant "Q" services.
wayne
Here's the $64,000 question: if the slants do in fact take over B service, will CIY take over as the primary yard for the B? Concourse yard has nothing except R-68s now, right?
For some reason, Concourse Yard preferred to be occupied with R-68A B layups than with R-32 C layups, so the B and C switched terminals. I don't know why, so I can't say if the reason still applies or if it's strong enough to push the R-40's off the Brighton express.
Come to think of it, if the B is assigned R-40's, I don't see why the B and C can't be restored to their former north terminals. R-68A's may be preferable to R-32's but I doubt R-40's are. (This assumes that my idea of running the B as the full-time Concourse local doesn't come to pass. The C can't be the full-time Concourse local unless the B replaces the A as the late night service to Inwood. Come to think of it, while not traditional, that doesn't sound so bad -- or do Concourse passengers disproportionately prefer 6th Avenue while Washington Heights passengers disproportionately prefer 8th?)
I personally tend to disbelieve any strong preferences of that sort, except where there is a clear and obvious explanation, like Chinese-Americans in Brooklyn wanting to go to Chinatown.
Yes, it's possible and even likely that some people chose an apartment near the Concourse because their place of work was near 6th Ave. But employers move around so much, and lay people off so much, that I have difficulty believing in major trends of this sort getting established.
The only other trend of that sort I really believe is that the J/Z riders east of Eastern Parkway disproportionately (i.e., considerably more than 25%) want downtown over midtown, because if they wanted midtown they'd take a bus to the E/F.
wayne
I don't see how Concourse could possibly fully service both the B and the D. It can handle either the B or the D, but not both. It will probably keep the D.
The MTA should have tried to shoehorn it in somehow after 9-11 for "emergency" reasons.
The weekend N could provide this service, running through to the Brighton (skip Ocean Pkwy & Sheepshead Bay) and back up to DeKalb, then as a normal N again. The sign at DeKalb will help riders tell whether it is going down via Brighton or via 4th Ave/Sea Beach. Worst case scenario they end up on the wrong one and can stay on until the train circulates around to their stop, delayed by 10-15 mins at the most. By Atlantic/Pacific most should realize if they're on the wrong one anyway, and they can still change.
My best buddy Bill Buckner didn't help matters back in 1986, didn't he. Great dance Mr. Buckner did with Mookie Wilson's grounder.
OK another BoSox meltdown like Bucky Dent did to them back in 1986.
This is ridiculous. Train service patterns should be set based on how best to serve PASSENGERS using existing trackage. They should not be set based on the whims of some guy who hasn't lived in New York for 50 years.
This is STUPID. You cannot run both the (B) and the (D) on a 24/7 basis, suer its ok in Brooklyn but you don't need two 24/7s in the BRONX.
One of them has to go!
So the (D) is 24/7 and the (B) becomes 16/5.
There are no changes in the Bronx.
So you *can* run the (D) as the PRIMARY service on Brighton (read 24/7 / Local) or it can be the PRIMARY service on the West End (read 24/7 Local).
Both 6th Ave and BWAY get one 24/7 service to Brooklyn (local in brooklyn) and one 16/5 service to Brooklyn (Express in Brooklyn).
You can divide these paramiters anyway you like.
Further restrictions are:
1) 6th Avenue Bridge trains run Express in Manhattan and via 8th Ave to the Bronx.
2) Broadway Bridge trains run Express in Manhattan from 57th Street, or if all lines are extended then via the 63rd Street Tunnel.
3) Broadway Local trains run via 60th Street and Montague Tunnels.
Have Fun.
Elias
Bottom line, when the bridge switch occured, West End riders were up in arms about being on Broadway rather than 6th Avenue. Brighton riders were not. Weekdays, Brighton can have service to both, the West End cannot.
Therefore, the West End has to have 6th Avenue service 24/7. If you make both the D and the B full time, the N and R are the only services on Broadway on weekends. That doesn't make sense.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
til next time
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
I've heard of IND extensions in the 1929 plan but never one from here. If I could get a link. . .?
N Bwy
A Canal crosstown is completely useless.
Ah..err...
What's in New Jersey?
(That would be of any interest to anyone in Brookly.. or vice versa)
Idle Mimes want to know.
The E line trolley tracks from Heath to Arboretum appear intact and unpaved although the wire is gone and the supports are missing. According to the Forest Hills S/A, the track has been OOS for 20 years. If that's the case then why does the MBTA show active service on their system maps on the station walls and the maps on the trolley and subway cars? In fact, at the Forest Hills station there is a large sign above the stairs that says COMMUTER RAIL and underneath it, GREEN LINE. Is the T planning on reactivating the line anytime soon?
Rode a new Red line car this afternoon. The car number had five digits starting with 0 (shades of the NH engine numbering scheme!), dark floors, and automated station announcements. Quieter than the older cars, too. What year was this series of cars introduced?
NETRANSIT explains things well.
The leading 0 on Boston rapid transit equipment began with the Main Line Elevated in 1903. It's the practice a century later.
The leading 0 is to differenciate rapid transit equipment from streetcars.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I was stuck at Euclid for a while. Eventually the A left and the C across the platform was taken out of service. Another A pulled in and it, too, was taken out of service. After a few minutes it loaded up again and ran express to Broadway Junction, where it was again taken out of service. After most of the trainload made its way upstairs, service resumed, and the A ran local into Manhattan.
I took a G to Smith-9th to wait for stray R-38's and R-44's that might have gone down the Culver and back up, but I eventually gave up and took the third F.
The WTC platform was closed this weekend because of the GO on the E, so turning opportunities in Manhattan were limited.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
These are CHANGED ROUTES ONLY:
A- 207th street- Rockaway Park/ Far Rockaway
via Fulton/8th avenue Express
via Cranberry
B- Lefferts Blvd- 205th Street, Bronx
via Fulton Local/ 6th Ave Express/ CPW Local/ Concourse Local
via Rutgers
C- ELIMINATED
D- Coney Island- Bedford Park Bulevard
via West End Local/ 4th Ave Express/ 6th Avenue/ CPW/ Bronx Express
Bronx express Peak direction
via Bridge
E- Jamaica Center- Coney Island
via Queens Express/ 53rd tunnel/ 8th avenue local/ Culver lcl
via Rutgers
F- ELIMINATED
M- Middle Village- Coney Island
via Brighton Lcl
via Williamsburg Bridge/ via Tunnel
Q- 179th Street, Queens- Brighton Beach
via Brighton Express/ Broadway Express/ 6th Ave Exp/ QBD Express
via 63rd street/ via Bridges
V- 71 Ave- WTC
via Queens Local/ 6th Avenue Local
via 53rd Street
STOPS AT SPRING STREET
First tell me fesability, and then please tell me personal opinion. Thank you
Am I right?
Brooklynese ;^)
Ok you could put the C aside but eliminating the F is a bunch of nonsense, the E will become way too long and that's not fsible and would it be smart to use the West 4 St & Jay St switches for everyday use, I don't know but I lean towards saying no in that case.
Does anyone happen to remember. As a railfan and Baruch student- I am fascinated to know.
Incognito
-Stef
I'm stumped. The High Bridge?
-Stef
Sorry, Sugar Rush.
-Stef
FWIW I have NO IDEA where Highbridge is located.. but the bridge locale
looks like one of the Deegan-Harlem River crossing bridge thingies..
Memoirs of the Polo Grounds...
Gracias, Steffano for the vota di confidence...
Just a wild guess. Carlton says it's easy, but something ain't clickin'
-Stef
The Alexander Hamilton carries I-95 and doesn't have a sidewalk, so scratch that. I've walked the Washington and I don't remember seeing a view like that. Besides, I have a hunch we're south of High Bridge.
So the Macombs Dam it must be.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
In 1800, wealthy landowner Alexander Macomb purchased a large amount of land along the eastern bank of the Harlem River in what was then part of Westchester County. Across the Harlem River in Manhattan, Macomb constructed a four-story, tidal-powered grist mill. To connect his land to the grist mill, and to provide additional power for his grist mill, Macomb proposed a dam and bridge, between Bussing's Point on the western bank to Devoe's Point on the eastern bank, in 1810.
Does anyone happen to remember. As a railfan and Baruch student- I am fascinated to know.
I am currently the ACting News Editor of The Ticker.
In a conversation with Carl Aylman- you probably remember the name- he mentioned that the signs used to be there.
Its a shame there is no station named after Baruch
There is
138- CCNY
68- Hunter College
- Brooklyn College
8th St NYU
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But the Mta is not putting the signs back up as I heard.
Wait a minute...
The school is all about the Vertical Campus and the library now anyway.
The apt bldg between 23 and 24 takes away from Baruch dominating the entire stretch between 22 and 26.
The line to 26th st. Interesting. The enterence to the Newman library has an old sign in front of a door that is not used that says "The Lexington Building".
There is no enterence on the 26th street side but the building has some garage space- since I last checked.
What street did the line run down? Park or Lex?
I remember also hearing about 18/LEx. The new bldg means that Baruch doesn't have to pay rent for leased space anymore. Thats why 18lex and 360 Park Ave South are not Baruch's anymore.
I will take my camrea with me and look for signs.
I will also check the pictures of 155 lex's renovation.
Then a real bitch to wait, outside 111th, we waited at 3:22 for the next 7 train in front to leave, it really wasn't until 3:50, a full 25 minutes from 111th until we arrived Willets Point. I though the R36 mainlines were reefed, I saw car #9311 at south track, my train arrived at middle track and the Manhattan bound track was not in service. I walked out in the light rain on the boardwalk to the LIRR. Bus fareboxes were used at Willets Point #7 station instead of turnstiles, a police officer stood guard to keep things orderly.
At the LIRR, only one platform was used, track #1 was our shuttles while track #2 was used for the PW regular trains, single track on the PW brance between Bayside and woodside. Trains were running every 20 minues, not 15 minutes as the sign says. Things were not too bad, a lot of space and seats at the end cars. Flushing station had only one thin exit. I saw one Subtalker at Shea Stadium, Dtrain22 was caught by me taking a picture of the M-1 sitting there.
After that LIRR ride, I headed over to the buses, that will be covered in Bustalk, and the hand-me-downs that daRidgewood Bus Buff would hate were on the B48 on my way home.
Nice to meet you up there Dtrain22, hope to see more tommorrow at Canarsie at Roberts party (HA!)
Q R40M 4516 (Rear car) 4543 (Front Car)
7 R36WF 9697 (car 9633 has mad heat, was a scorcher)
Started out by taking the B8 from my house, got off at Newkirk heard the Q so I ran for it, caught the R68 and it was a quick ride to Atlantic Av where I get off to catch the IRT [I REFUSED to ride via Montague :-)]. So 2 & 3 trains were running express Franklin-Atlantic so anyone that came first I would take so I miss the 4 but a 3 train comes right behind it I get on and switches onto the local track going regular. So we make the rst of the Brooklyn stops and we go through the tunnel [what's the name of it again?] and we go at decent speed and we arrive at Wall St go through those stops then at Chambers we're forced o wait a few minutes. So then we get the go ahead and the 1 that was across the platform was at Christopher St so it was moving fast. A nice cool ride on the 7 Av express then I got off at Times Sq to catch the 7.
So I'm at TS and I just missed a Redbird so I had to wait 5-6 minutes before the next 7 pulls in a R62A so I settle in; yes it had a 7 stripmap; but all of a sudden I see a Redbird ariving on the next track so I walk out and go into that instead [9308 had good ventilation]. So I go to 9648 the N motor and get the RF window and then 5 minutes later we're off and we got a 'lights out' over the switch. So we move smoothly saw the duct tape on the platform at 5 Av [due to water leakage] then we stop & go at GCT then in the Steinway tubes we go 34mph, a new high that I've seen and we average 28mph until we reach Vernon Blvd. So we move quickly through the local stops and the C/R was very thorough with his announcements during the trip. It goes smoothly until at after 103 St where we run into a R62A in front of us and causes bunching :-\. So we don't even reach 111 and it takes about 10 minutes before we FINALLY arrive at the station, stop but then we get stuck AGAIN for another 10 minutes and myself abd everyone around me including the T/O.
So we're still waiting for the signals to clear and then they turn yellow and we move at 0 mph [yeah interesting right ;-)]. So then we have to wait yet AGAIN for the 3rd time and the T/O honks the horn and let me tell you it was a pathetic sound. He then moves at 0 mph but the arm is up and plays a "trick" on us it goes down initially but then goes up again almost tripping the train. So then he gets a key-by when one of the track workers put the arm down and locked it by using a metal piece then we switch onto te middle track & terminate there. Geez a 1/2 hour just to go two stops. Then I head over to the LIRR platform and we wait for the shuttle train and that takes over 10 minutes to come then pulls up on the far right side loads passengers then we're off and takes only about 3 minutes to travel and the platfrom was very narrow and combined with the crowds forget it although it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
Then I go on the buses, I have to run for the Q44 which was coming and I made it before it arrived so I get on it and someone [Kool-D??] was knocking on the bus but the B/O drives away. Well I should continue this on Bustalk.
NF 813 B8
R68 2788 (Q)
R62A 2013 (3)
R36 9648 (7)
M-1 9720 (7) Shuttle
Orion 645 Q44
R42 4866 (J)
RTS 9435 B46 LTD
RTS 8524 B8
Oddly enough, I saw a 7 shuttle bus on Roosevelt Avenue at 5:15 PM.
I'm guessing it was only taking passengers from Main St to Willets Pt Blvd as a crowd-control measure, since loading at the LIRR platform seemed much smoother at Willets Pt than at Main St. Did it stop on Roosevelt Ave or 40 Rd?
9311 is a R33WF.
PS: The engineer let me take the "imitation" side signs that they were supposed to put in the windows on the LIRR trains, so new room decoration for me lol.
After walking around Willets I headed over to the LIRR area to check out the shuttle.
What's up with this?
The line was LOOOOONG, but at least it was spread out. The #7 passengers were very nicely accomodated, but normal LIRR riders were turned away and confused by constant announcements that "If you're not going to Flushing, you're in the wrong place!". The train shows up, and everyone stupidly piles into the center of the train, only a smart few bother to walk to the end. It took at least 10 minutes just to load up. We pull out towards Flushing, and when we get there, I do the stupidest thing imaginable-I got off the platform. Bad move. The line to get back up was around the corner and down the street, and they were only letting 300 at a time. Not wanting to wait on this line or end my trip there, I pulled out my Queens bus map to find a bus back to Willets. I then look for the nearest Q-48 stop, but to my surprise, I find instead a shuttle bus marked as a #7 train!
So I get on it, go back to Willets, whereupon we meet a crowd that wants to take this bus back to Main, but the B/O says that it is one-way only [how dumb is that?].
I walked to 111th from there...
Got a Redbird headed up to Willets, but there were 3 trains in front of us (one just left!) so we had to wait. Two kids came up to the RFW and started shouting, "Look at the 6-train models! The ones I almost never see!" and then they started arguing about whether or not it came from the yard [DUH! It has people in it!] and then one started wildly cursing the train in front of us, which was moving at the rate of an inch per minute. When we finally started moving, they began chanting, "We're gonna ride the shuttle! We're gonna ride the shuttle!" all the way to Willets (mind you, we were held AGAIN between 111 and Willets) and then they raced each other to the LIRR platform. I wonder if that was anyone from here?
Anyway, the crowd had dwindled somewhat since they let them use both stairs and didn't wait for the train to arrive to start sending passengers down. When the train pulled in again, I wasn't the only one taking this picture...there was also some guy behind me and to my left...
I got on the other end this time, hoping to get the railfan window (the train is chock full of LIRR personnel! They refuse to close either of the cab doors at either end) but hopelessly sat down again. At this poing I was in the car with Kool-D (didn't recognize him 100% at first), the other photographer, and two girls that were "there for the ride". It appears that most of the people on this train were there for the free LIRR ride, not to get somewhere. Most people who were smart got off at Willets and caught the Q-48.
At Flushing, since everyone had again stupidly piled into the center cars, there was a mass exodus to the street level. I walked by all the suckers in the funeral-procession-speed march towards the exit, through the train, and passed hundreds of people. I went to the other end and saw an arriving Penn-bound PW train,
which several people tried to board (either thinking it was the right train or trying to cheat the line) for free. Many succeeded. Others, however, missed the train and thus had to go all the way to the back of the line and wait for the next train. After taking it all in,
I rode back to Shea, where I ran into Kool-D again, we talked for a couple of minutes, he got on for the 1st time, and I left to get the #7 home. You've gotta see the makeshift fare control. There are two "turnstiles", each of which consist of 2 TA workers, a cop, a table loosely covered with money, and of all things, a BUS FAREBOX! And these two "turnstiles" are supposed to handle the entire crowd! With the crowd this thick anyone could've swiped some $$ off the table.
It didn't end there but I'm gonna truncate the rest as this post is getting way too long.
BTW, it was a nice aerial view of Casey Stengel depot and Corona yard. Nice pic of the R62A signed as a 5.
After leaving the LIRR shuttle and going through the farebox, I got on the train home, a Redbird. But I couldn't get the RFW because it was occupied, not by a person, but by a shopping cart, of all things (are shopping carts even allowed on the subway?) So I sat it out until 74/Broadway,
[I guess the train on the right was a gap train]
where I got off hoping to get a train downstairs to Queens Plaza, the E, to check out a strange signal that was described here a few days ago. I had forgotten that the E wasn't going to QP, and by the time I remembered, there went the R, and I was NOT going to try and get the G, so I went ahead through 63rd Street.
"Is this train an E or an F?"
"Are you lost?"
"Your sign says 'E', but it should say 'F', this is the 'F' line. Or is it an E? Can I get to 8th Ave from here?"
It just kept going on like this at every station. For some reason a whole bunch of guys kept trying to mack the T/O (she was a female, but she wasn't THAT pretty) including one TA worker who knew less about where the train was going than the confused passengers. "Where you goin', down 53rd St or 63rd?" And when a lady asked him about the sign and where the train was going, he said, "I...uh....I dunno. Um...are you going down 6th or 8th?" She said, "8th. No wait, 6th. 6th Avenue." THEY don't even know where they're going. They're just following the signals. Anyway the scene was making me sick and he had stolen the RFW so I got off at 57th/6th to get off a few shots of the E there.
I let an F go by (darn! Botched that picture) and got on the next (E) to see if it would go to 2nd or WTC, and sure enough it went to 2nd Ave. But at least the F was running right so lost passengers could change for the right train. Although the announcements suggested that the F was running through Cranberry, which it wasn't, causing many to disembark at W4 not sure what train to turn to, and even the Grand St Shuttle was screwed up. I felt sorry for them, but I was running late, so didn't have time to help any of them. From there I took the J to Wendy's and then home.
It was just like that when the R ran via V and I rode the R via 6 Av a while back and was nothing but MASS CONFUSION. Me & Kool-D was helping folks out like crazy the people were "scared" to see a yellow bulleted train on 6 Av, which is orange. About the clueless MTA worker, I could only laugh at that they can be of no use when helping out with getting customers where they need to go ;-).
At least one train was sent local, and was held at 36th to let an E express cut in front. Fortunately, I was on that E.
What was wrong with the Grand Street shuttle? It effectively has exclusive access to the tracks it uses, so neither the E nor the F should effect it. IINM, since the beginning of the current pick, it hasn't been relaying north of W4, if that's what you saw (and, no, I don't know why the change was made).
What was wrong with the Grand Street shuttle? It effectively has exclusive access to the tracks it uses, so neither the E nor the F should effect it. IINM, since the beginning of the current pick, it hasn't been relaying north of W4, if that's what you saw (and, no, I don't know why the change was made).
It was running single-track only, and no more relay north of West 4th as you said. It is confusing to pax at West 4th since they're used to being able to get the shuttle right across the platform. Now they have to run upstairs, dash across the mezzaine, then jump down to the platform to catch the shuttle.
It's been running that way for a month now, IINM at all times. The permanent signs at W4 over the SB express track send passengers to the other platform.
I guess that F was sent local to fill a gap in local service. I didn't hear any announcements. I wonder why it was held at 36th to let an E go first.
Maybe a T/O here can tell us if there are the same # of jobs on the Grand St Shuttle. Therein probably lies the answer.
1) Why were these interlockings built?
2) Could these interlockings be used today or are they permanently disused?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
1. Can a G train turn around at Bedford/Nostrand without single-tracking from Nassau to Bedford/Nostrand?
2. Can trains be stored on tracks east of Bedford/Nostrand that look as though they are stubs to the never-built Second System (and is it actually 2 tracks)?
3. How long approximately are the stub tracks mentioned above?
Thanks in advance for the answers.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
(We had a discussion about this last year. I'm just tossing in one data point.)
Gotta love them R-44's ! Heh.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The only R-142 chime malfunction I've heard happens if the C/R begins to close the front section before the rear section is fully closed.
Is that why it chimes backwards?
Bill "Newkirk"
If the modification doesn't work out, it is usually left on the experimental car anyway. If it does work out, it is copied to other cars. An example would be the LED-style door indicators.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Make that four; R30 #8488 joined the IRT cars a few months ago.
Peace
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yesh, transit relevancy to us... but questionable if a legit occurrence.
I posted here thinking some would get a pre-holiday whiff from that tale.
D'AOH! I thought you meant WORK as in WORKPLACE as in TIME CARDS as in CASINO DAYS..
Dam... Here I thought the 7 train was hiring.... :s
Why would the MTA pick such a crappy color?? That's one thing the CTA is pretty good with. I like the kinda cream yellow/tan (I guess would be the best way to describe it) color that the green line and Loop downtown are painted. Also the plain steel/light blueish color the have left the new structure on the Douglas/Cermak branch of the blue line looks nice. If they painted any L structure here an outrageous color like that people would go crazy.
I've never had a problem there, but better INFORMED than sortie.
Anyone got a link to the reported burger findings??
I've never had a problem there, but better INFORMED than sortie.
Anyone got a link to the reported burger findings??"
Whuthufu**......??
First the tirade about Peggy's new trip and how lunch always winds up being WHITE CASTLE
and poster mentions how WHITE CASTLE burgers are bad and whatnot...
Self would like to find the article of reference where it is stated.
Figured someone in the know would post link to ARTICLE (not to trip notice).
I did say OT.
White Castle hamburgers have been known to cause gas. More commonly known as farts or pants explosions !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I can testify from personal experience that it never fails-I get sick EVERY TIME I eat at White Castle, no matter what I order, and I've been to at least 4 of them (it seems like more, but those are the only 4 I can specifically recall).
Chip
If I got sick in ONE venue... I sure hella wouldn't go hunting
down THREE other duplicate venues to Guinea Pig on.
At the moment my memory is serving me very well and my stomach is in bad shape so the only way you'd get me into a White Castle's now is if you drugged me.
No. 3 brings into question your level of common sense. Unfortunately, No. 4 removes the question mark. :-)
Tom
Of course this begs the question, is Racoon kosher?
They do not have cloven hoofs and do not chew cud, therefore, no matter how clean they are, they are NOT KOSHER.
Yes you did.
WDobner asked:
Of course this begs the question, is Racoon kosher?
You answered:
They must be.
And don't forget Jack's killer burgers from a few years back which ended the rare burger in America.
Tom
Right... and as I recall you are especially fond of steak tartáre :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I assume you stay away from all forms of yogurt.
Actually, one must assume that all ground beef is contaminated. That is why a hamburger must always be eaten well-done, to avoid unnecessary risks. This is true of any ground beef, kosher, non-kosher, supermarket, fast food etc.
That makes it tough for steak tartare afficionados. It is not the ground beef itself that is the problem but the conditions under which it has been ground. Automatic factory methods are not clean. It is simpler to put the onus on the consumers to kill the bacteria introduced in the grinding process than to clean up that process. I have no hesitation eating raw ground beef which was ground at a local butcher store by a reputable butcher who knew that it would be used in steak tartare.
Tom
It's funny but I'm just the opposite. I absolutely detest fast food. If I didn't have a child brainwashed by advertising I would never go to MacDonald's or Burger King. I'd much rather be served in a restaurant. But my one big exception to the rule is definitely White Castle.* I cannot get enough of it, almost like an addiction. When we were driving cross country last summer after retiring from the PD I was absolutely thrilled when we spotted a WC from the interstate in Indianopolis, In!!! I always thought it was just an East Coast chain. You can be sure we stopped there!!!
* (footnote) I really have 2 exceptions. I also love Nathans!
Just for the sake of bringing it back on topic, I wonder how many NY White Castles are located within 1-2 blocks of a subway station?
The next closest 5 are:
112-11 Springfield Blvd
Queens, NY 11429
89-03 57th Ave.
Elmhurst, NY 11373
1545 Myrtle Ave.
Brooklyn, NY 11237
1305 Beach Channel Driv
Far Rockaway, NY 11691
846 Empire Blvd.
Brooklyn, NY 11213
The last time I had White Castles was before going to the hospital last February. 4 cheeseburgers and I didn't have to worry about constipation.
Which I presume is the reason for your trip?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's an acquired taste. Like Scotch whisky to a good ole boy raised on Kentucky bourbon.
Tom
Remember in the sixties, Nathan's had pineapple soda?
Here is the cool part, the only place in the world where Krystal and WC overlap in Nashville, TN. And in Nashville, there is one corner with a WC and a Krystal on the same corner. It is three blocks from I-40 and when I drive to New York from Texas, I stop and get 4 WC and 4 K's with an order of fries and a shake from each. By a small margin, I favor WC. Since they are the winner, I eat all the stuff at WC and then I go on my way to NY.
Now that is cool.
Now, there's a real "open minded" statement!
>>The food is unhealthy and people eat alot of them compared to two or three hamburgers from Burger King or McDonalds.<<
Oh, yes. The food at Burger King and McDonalds are much healthier than White Castle!
If you do not eat at ANY fast food restaurants, or if you do, and you at least gave White Castle a try, I would then respect your "opinions". However, until you show us the nutritional information of all 3 chains to back up your claim, than I suggest you refrain from posting such jibberish. Oh, and by the way, when most people go to any kind of fast food chain, they are not going there for "healthy" food. Most normal human beings realize that these places serve high in fat, high in sodium, and high in carbohydrates garbage. And the reason we go there is that the stuff tastes good, and it's ready quickly when we're in a rush.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BINGO! Fast food being healthy my ass, I don't know how people say that one chain is "healthier" than the other there's lots of artifical flavors in the food which makes it so tasty. The closest chain to natural fast food I'll say is Wendy's.
Actually, to me, those are the best women to date because they are not constantly obsessed with their weight. I find the "White Castle" women more down to earth and "normal" than those who eat nothing but salads and vegetables.
Go down to Brazil, and you'll see women that'll eat more than the dudes, yet still a have killer body.
So some knockout mystical chik who happens to like McDonald's or White Castle starts getting friendly with you, and you'd reject her because she might pork up a little sometime in the future? Now really.
YOU are in no position to be a chooser.
Beggars. Choosers.
For a guy who's so concerned that women are overlooking him (pun intended) due to his short stature, you certainly do have an interesting double standard for the large & lovely ladies, eh?
I want to date a healthy woman. What's so wrong with that?
Well, you might be on the right track ... mystical chix tend not to pack on the weight like chix of other ethnicities, though of course there are exceptions.
Maybe not in Asia, but in America, when converted to the American high calorie diet, they chunk up just like other Americans.
Tom
I'm not so sure. Genetics may be important notwithstanding the American diet. I base this on simple observations - by and large, mystical chix tend to be on the slender side, even those who are American born and bred. Sure, there are some chunky ones, but I'd say the percentage thereof seems to be lower than with chix from other groups.
Beef cookies rule.
Here's their web site: http://www.whitecastle.com/
Here in DC the closest one is near Philly, or Nashville TN.
Phil Hom
R10-R42 SMEE - Golden Oldies
See, it's one of those un-announced tests. Those of us who can take `em get to go on the spaceships leaving the doomed planet Earth. :-)
Or, it just might be that your digestive system ain't, uh, up to the task. I don't believe there are any more germs in White Castle food than in other places. Anyway, bacteria are everywhere.
Personally, whatever I get to eat there, (usually, 2 fish filets with cheese, a cheeseburger, bisquit, small onion rings, small soda) I top it off with a jalapeno pepper (the only fast food joint to sell them!). The nice hot pepper will burn away any lil' bacteria you might be worrying about.
You would love it in the Southwest, the peppers are given away as condiments at many places. I'll eat fifteen of them with a Tommie's Burger. (What doesn't kill you makes you stronger) :-)
Tom
Whew, and I thought me, and the people I go out with sometimes were the only nuts that did that in the middle of the night after going to a bar.
Yep, one thing you can say about a White Castle hamburger, two bites and they're gone.
Anyone here remember White Tower or in New Jersey, White Diamond ?
Bill "Newkirk"
White Tower was a "me too" chain which copied much of what White Castle did. It was started in Milwaukee in 1926, and was successfully sued by White Castle in the ‘30s for trademark infringement. White Tower was pretty well defunct by the ‘80s, but at least two restaurants survive, one in Toledo, and another in Dayton, OH.
Tom
I was never a fan of White Castle or White Tower, so I cannot really compare the size of each chain's hamburgers, but White Tower was an imitator of White Castle, and featured very cheap hamburgers, so I assume the size was similar.
BTW, it was not until my first trip to California in 1957 that I saw any hamburger served with more than catsup, mustard and onions. In California when I ordered a hamburger I received one with lettuce, pickle, a thousand island type dressing and a slice of tomato on it, (and had to pay the outrageous price of 35¢).
Tom
That's funny... when I was growing up hamburgers were either served with sweet pepper relish (Aunt Hilda's house) or mustard and chili sauce (Grandma's house). Ketchup and onions didn't come along until I met my bride. Unfortunately, Aunt Hilda's recipe for sweet pepper relish has been lost to history... one of the few recipes of hers that she apparently never wrote down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
White Castle is the public transportation equivalent to the McDonald's appeal to the auto driver. It has been around much longer, but has been bypassed and almost relegated to oblivion by the new competition.
Tom
In the 50's & early 60's they were the place to go on fantrips - quick, usually on strretcar lines, and fast.
The small burgers were exactly the same as WC's, and they also offered a 45 cent "Super Burger" with twice the meat.
The chain finaly vanished in the 1980s's, their last outlets were in Highlandtown and at Harborplace (Pratt St. Pavilion).
Try the jalepeno ones. Hmm, I wonder if they're good?
If I am still thirsty after the shake, how about a Dr. Brown's Cream Soda to wash it all down?
At that point I don't think I would have room for a Carvel Ice Cream Cone. But who knows?
Where is the best place to find all of the above nearby? Bay Ridge 4th Ave?
39 St/4 Av Brooklyn
Willoughby/Jay St Brooklyn
Flatbush/Nostrand Av Brooklyn
Jamaica Av/160 St Queens
I've seen more around the Bronx, Queens & Brooklyn but don't remember the locations exactly.
Drive-thrus in Manhattan are rare and are thus are something noteworthy.
There's a McDonald's Drive-thru on 34th and 10th.
LONG LIVE WHITE CASTLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't ever remember seeing another one anywhere.
ALSO: Carroll's was Wetson's local competitor; there was one in New Hyde Park also one on Franklin Avenue in Franklin Square (McDonalds is there now).
wayne
Be careful how you use the word "disaster," it might scare a few people in here because of the Orange Adult Diaper Alert.
Before beginning, just let me say that if anyone was expecting a quick job here, I refer you to the ongoing Boro Hall Escalator Show a few stations up the line. (By the way, I recently saw a new sign there indicating that the show has been extended through the winter of 2003! My guess is that at this time next year, we'll be toasting the start of the fourth year of that smash hit.)
The Atlantic Avenue complex, which includes the IRT Atlantic Avenue subway station, the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal and the underpasses that connect them as well as the two BMT stations nearby (Atlantic Avenue and Pacific Street) are supposedly undergoing "tracks to roof renovation." The LIRR station is in horrendous shape right now. The station is dark and dirty, with wooden boards covering excavations in the flooring. There is heavy construction of a new building terminal going on upstairs from the station, but the floor of the work site is open to the elements and not sufficiently waterproofed. Thus, on a very rainy day or after a heavy snow, its not uncommon for torrents of water to be pouring from the wooden station ceiling onto the platforms and tracks. I've had to use an umbrella many times to get from the subway turnstiles to my train. An umbrella in an UNDERGROUND station, mind you. Only in New York.
The station's north side is also open to the outside because of ongoing steel and construction work. Thus, the station is freezing in the winter, broiling in the summer and soaked during heavy rains. During the past winter, it was not uncommon to see an inch or two of snow on the platform between Tracks 1 and 2, as that is the platform closest to the removed north wall.
Of course, the floors that have not been removed in favor of wooden planking consist of smooth tile. When those tiles get wet, which occurrs very often, running to make a train becomes a rollicking adventure.
The IRT station at Atlantic Avenue has also received the wooden board treatment in places. Some of the boards have been there for a very long time and have been walked over by many, many people. Add to that the fact that they are almost always wet and you have a situation where the boards are starting to buckle when you walk over them. You can actually feel them bounce when you step on them as you walk over. I was curious about what was under the boards, so I sneaked into one of the construction areas late one night. Apparently a new stairway is being built underneath the boards, but there is nothing bracing the boards from underneath. If one of the boards was to collapse, the unlucky person would face a 10-15 foot fall onto concrete steps and construction equipment. Lawsuit, anyone?
The tiling on both side platforms is in atrocious shape. Some of it has been ripped away to make room for new piping and/or control/storage rooms,leaving bare, uneven concrete underneath. More tiling is covered with black dirt, probably from the construction. I hate to think what we're breathing in there....
The new lighting has been installed but a good portion of the station is being lit by temporary hanging yellow bulbs. The signage, as has been posted, is subpar, with cheap tin signs hanging crookedly and pointing people in the wrong directions.
The underpass connecting the three subway stations and the LIRR does not resemble a subway underpass at all. It is, quite simply, a construction site. Wooden walls line both sides of the underpass, its pretty dark because nearly all of the flourescent fixtures have been removed, and the concrete floor is unfinished, leaving many craters and bumps. The underpass also is almost always wet, because of leaking water from outside. Additionally, the many metal poles that are holding up the platforms and trackways above are improperly placed in the center of the open portion of the underpass, causing people to walk a kind of obstacle course when changing trains. The Lord help any wheelchair bound person who needs to get on an LIRR train from a 2,3,4 or 5 downtown train. There's no elevator or escalator in the station and making that change requires traversing at least 2-3 staircases.
I invite all Subtalkers to see this travesty for themselves. Its really quite a depressing sight.
I had my first experience ever with it when I disembarked from the LIRR last week. Quite an eye-opener. BTW, you don't need to have someone fall 15 feet to concrete and equipment to get a lawsuit; they just need to slip on the tiles. I've seen construction jobs at universities where the faculty were given weekly updates on conditions and they STILL screamed their heads off, so I have to give New Yorkers credit for an incredible amount of patience.
Of course, their alternative is to drive on the LIE.
The new transit station at fulton Nassua is going to be no less kaotic when construction starts their next year.
It has only been a few years since the end of the last rehab project at Broadway-Nassau ... I hope the Fulton Transit Center project will avoid the need for yet another station rehab a few years down the road.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Cars 2055-2064 and 2110 are back on the mainline for work. Corona isn't able to do the maintenance on them right now, so the train has been put in the care of another barn.
The cars are currently in storage at East 180th St Yard.
-Stef
Cablevision Viewers: Channel 37
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Also, what has the MTA said about the status and disposition of the M1/M2 cars at MNCR?
Now, going a little far back, why is it that the SPV-2000s lasted so short a time on most of the MNCR? (Connecticut still operates a fleet of rehabbed SPV-2000s on one of its branches. Why were the others left to rot at Croton-Harmon Yard?)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
As to the questions.... others know more than moi.
Why is that?
From what I understand, they weren't called "Seldom-Powered Vehicles" for nothing :).
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Rebuilt?
Unrebuilt?
What about this one, no stripes but it's got that blue panel, rebuilt or unrebuilt?
Thanks
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Narrow, but a door or partition shuts off the front end of the lead car and effectively eliminates the RFW.
Aren't those unpowered trailers?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Answer Most of the ACMU's were rebuilt in 1983 by MK in Hornell New York, others were turned into non control B cars without ATC and active controlls other than a hostler controller. Carbon steel cars are easier to spot fix, since no specialized welding is needed.
Also, what has the MTA said about the status and disposition of the M1/M2 cars at MNCR?
Answer: No specific cars are scheduled yet for retirement and specialy no M2/M4/M6 cars as no replacement has been designed yet and no replacements have been budgeted yet.
Now, going a little far back, why is it that the SPV-2000s lasted so short a time on most of the MNCR? (Connecticut still operates a fleet of rehabbed SPV-2000s on one of its branches. Why were the others left to rot at Croton-Harmon Yard?)
Answer: no self propelled cars in SPV series run anymore, CDOT however had the Amtrak painted 12 CDOT cars rebuilt as Constitution liner coaches and Cab cars. the cars in Croton's east yard were to be done too and CDOT bought them from MTA a few years back.
the absence of 480 volt trainline cabeling and 27 point control trainline and Comunication trainline made the project to expensive so now 9 cars are in east yard not going anywere. the 10 th car was donated by CDOT to eastern Railway Museum in Williamantic Ct.
Jaap
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
From the sound, I'd guess that they were Detroit Diesel 2 cycle. In fact, they sounded similar to the 8V71 engine commonly found in buses of that era. As for the transmission, they seemed to be 5 speed automatic. It also seemed like they had very good acceleration compared to RDCs and perhaps a higher top end.
Regarding the brakes, I think they may have had something exotic for the time - like disc brakes. I believe there were alot of trouble with the brakes on these cars.
Am I close to accurate on the above?
This is the exact same system used on the RDC's and they don't really have wheelspin problems.
Jimmy
If they replaced the RDC's, the SPV-2000 didn't live up to the RDC's reputation.
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course, the design works just fine, and Voith makes plenty of capable transmissions for it. IIRC, the CRC DMU prototype (which itself isn't the greatist, but they get points for actually developing it) uses a Voith or two in it.
Never! The LIRR M-1's are rotting junk that should have been scrapped years ago. At least the 1100's are in far better condition.
Metro-North took over in 1983 and has done a great job with the M-1A's in keeping them on the road. Some of the problems just can't be fixed though. You can always tell which cars have the lavoratory by taking a deep breath. Even though Metro-North custodian forces due a great job cleaning these things the smell still lingers from years ago.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Your story convinces me, but does it convince some SubTalkers here who believe million$ of dollars should be spent on overhauling the M-1's to get another 10 years out of them. Those SubTalkers who believe we send some M-1's over to Staten Island Railway need a reality check. I don't think the people of Staten Island really want another railroads hand-me-downs.
It was been stated here that a Budd built stainless steel car body ahould last about fifty years. No argument there. It's all the components, running gear and parts that are worn out and outdated. Some M-1's (LIRR) have stress cracks on their frames as told by a LIRR friend of mine. No stress cracks on the car body ! As stated on the MTA website for the capital program, the M-1's have reached the end of their usefull lives. I was told that vacuum tubes are still being used is some circuitry ! That's like selling 8 tracks at Sam Goody in 2003.
The M-7's are here and still coming and the M-1's are slowly heading south of the border for retirement. They're gonna have to accept this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You blind hatred of tubes only serves to mark you as a achaetechnophobite.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
I have or have seen a video of an old Arrow car or something being crash tested. Do you know if any other videos like that are available from Pueblo? (I don't mean like to buy professionally, I mean videos just floating around the web.) Thanks.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks,
Glenn
The syntax to reference a photo here is:
(img src="http://12.23.190.250/Photos/ETcR9D.jpg"),
Replace the ( ) with < >
and looks like this when it prints:
This is me, last summer at Branford with the arnine car.
Elias
Glenn
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I might've missed someone else mentioning this already, but NJTransit trains are now running through the rebuilt north Weehawken tube. I headed out of Hoboken on Friday morning. I was busy reading my book and didn't even notice that the train was heading into the north tube. It took me a moment to figure out what was amiss; the ride seemed to be more quieter than usual, and you couldn't hear the rattling of the ol' joint rail in the south tube. It took a few seconds to figure out that we're in the north tube.
On the previous Saturday, trains were still going through the south tube. I think they switched this past Monday. When we came out on the west end, the rails on the south side were dull, and looked to be disused for quite some time. A work crew was very, very busy ripping them out. One track was already fully disconnected from the mainline.
So, they didn't waste any time, and as soon as the north tube was ready, the south tube was closed, and they're now going to spend another couple of years rebuilding it. I looked across when passing through the two gaps in the tunnel where one could see the other side. The south tube was already wrapped in blue tarp.
The new HBLR tracks run westward parallel to NJTransit tracks out of Hoboken, but then dip and turn north, under NJTransit, just before the Weehawken tubes. There was an old north/south freight track there. I watched them about a year ago, when they ripped out the freight track, and they're now laying out two HBLR tracks northward.
As best as my decade's, or so, experience of riding into Hoboken tells me the speed limit has not changed. The fluorescent lighting in the tunnel kept flying by at pretty much the same speed as before. I doubt that it could be changed in any case. On the western end you've got a bridge, and Main/Bergen trains have that hairpin turn to the north. Then on the eastern end you've got other things happening too. And the tunnel isn't really long enough to get yourself going at a decent clip. Maybe electric trains could go through there faster; but as far as I can tell the diesels are still going through there at about 45MPH.
Before the north tube got shut down, I distinctly had the impression that the last couple of years the diesels were running somewhat slower than they used to. The fluorescent lighting used to zip by much faster back then. In hindsight, it's a likely bet that they had to slow them down, for a few years, as a result of the deteriorating conditions in the tube.
I'll be heading back to Hoboken later tonight, and will try to figure out whether the ol' diesel is any faster going eastward through the tube.
No, not yet, anyway. Current trackwork is on the Montauk line between Freeport and Amityville.
If the branch is down to one track only, will the Far Rock line be rerouted in one direction to the Montauk division? I hope so. I can't stand riding the Atlantic again.
You're right, the Atlantic is less fun, but I'm not sure why. Sorry.
Mark
Uh, that's the BABYLON branch you're talking about. The MONTAUK branch, in Suffolk anyway, is from Babylon east to Montauk. Bay Shore, Patchogue, Mastic-Shirley, etc.
Yeah, I did notice that at Sayville. Piles of complete track segments...even a bunch of plain concrete squares. Upon which, I guess, will be placed the rails and ties.
The "Babylon branch" is a figment of the public's imagination, created to make it easy to differentiate between electrified and nonelectrified portions of the line. Ditto for such "branches" as "Ronkonkoma." The entire line from Long Island City to Montauk, via Fresh Pond, Jamaica, and St. Albans, is properly termed Montauk, especially in the context in which I used it.
It's no coincidence that the road through St. Albans and the road east of Babylon are both called Montauk.
Mark
Okay if you're examining it from a historical p.o.v. I always liked thinking about railroad lines as if the "original" operators ran them. But you can only take that so far. Look at how many seperate railroads made up the New York Central. (Don't get me wrong; The historical bent is a very good way to look at a system. Gives it proper perspective. It always gave me a little thrill to realize that all the milage posts mark for L.I.C. as terminal point.)
In its wisdom the current operating authority has deemed the various "figments" to be branches. I.E., the available branch timetables. So I term them as such.
That's fair, but note that internally, it's still referred to as Montauk. It is not a historical moniker. It's actually more correct and current to use "Montauk" instead of "Babylon" than it is to use "Lexington IRT" instead of "fourfivesix."
It's proper to say "Babylon" instead of "Montauk" when talking about scheduling, or talking to the general public, but we're talking about track-n-tie, and we're not the general public here, are we?
Mark
Hmmmph. Interesting. I hear you, but for reasons of topical clarity I figured even within this here grouping of fans, I'll use the external descriptives. As the thread grows us "smartie pants" are gonna get to the meat of the data, so to speak, as a matter of course. When I use to use the stations along the Queens "Montauk Branch" I always knew that's what I was on. Not the Suffolk "Montauk Branch". And I've always thought of it as the "Long Island City Branch" anyway. I suppose you could describe it as "one of the original LIRR mainlines" too.
Heh. In one sense you could say that the block you live on is part of the transcontinental highway system. And my earliest thoughts I recall concerning rails was the thought that "these tracks can get me across the country".
Thanks,
Glenn
Where is it? I was able to see it by pasting the address in my browser, but your HTML code still has at least one mistake in it.
Tom
You forgot the "http://" in front of the "www."
Incognito...
BTW, it looks like a Brighton Line or Sea Beach Line subway station...can't pinpoint it...anyone?
Good Lord, how old is that photo? They still have the windows!
See, I knew you'd like that one. You must've missed it in this thread when he reposted the photo of Wilson Ave.
Don't forget, dude, up until the `60s or so, there just wasn't all that many disposable items. In general, the population was just neater in public. The suburbs (as we know them now) hadn't really kicked into gear. More people lived in the actual cities than in a "metropolitan area". Flatbush was a suburb.
You'd be shocked at what areas like East New York and Tremont looked like. I mean, you might wonder why, say, E.N.Y has such good transit connections. 50 years ago, it was more middle class, whatever that means. Another point is the rest rooms and the mezzanines. How today they're basically closed or shunned. Hell, even public lighting has changed greatly. Today it's like prison yard style. Guess we were less afraid of each other back then. For some reason or another, we've allowed destructive elements to alter what had been considered "our public right to enjoy the civic infrastructure". Anybody remember how city parks used to let kids have balls and what not to play with? Amazing, that.
"Do your own thing" mindset didn't help either.
Thanks,
Glenn
Not once it is posted. That is a good reason to use the preview function to check such things as links before posting.
Tom
Here is a current photo of the station from 4/26/03.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Thank you,
Glenn
til next time
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
In their post-war Army khaki paint, the interiors had a real dumpy look to them.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
It's hard to tell. If any date appears on the opposite side of the photo that would be of help. I recently saw a color pic of the Multi's leaving East 105th St. And the date on that photo was October 1949.
Bill "Newkirk"
So the photo is most like pre-1956.
That should make dating easier.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Where are you getting these photos from?
These are from my friend's collection, and were taken by Sidney Silleck, Jr. His family sold Sidney's entire portfolio at (shudder)a garage sale prior to his death, and my friend was luck enough to get a few hundred. They include many TARy pictures, non-local trolley and bus photos, and some subway photos. I will try and upload as many as are relevant to this group, but I only have 5 posts daily, so it may take some time. ANY pic I upload that the webmaster would like to use for the site he is welcome to, so long as both my friend (Michael Leighton) and the photographer are credited.
Thanks to everyone for their help in answering my questions.
Here is a neat photo, unknown photographer, date, everything! All that can be determined (so far) is that it is a narrow-gauge railraod.
Glenn
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks,
Glenn
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did some Google searching on Herman Goldstein Plymouth-DeSoto earlier today before the location of the picture had been determined. Find the location of the dealership, locate the photo spot. Unfortunately, I came up with nothing; while I'm sure records of the dealership exist somewhere, they're not on the Web.
Glenn
"Note: Articles from the last 7 days are free, as are all reviews back to 1996.
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Great Idea
The address is: 460 Broadway.
It's a few blocks further west. According to my copy of Geographia's Complete Street Guide to Brooklyn, 1978 edition: 400 - Division Ave; 441 - Hewes St; 467 - Penn St; 493 - Rutledge St/Johnson Ave; 506 - Heyward St; 508 - Union Ave.
As I said in my first post on this topic, I've past that dealership hundreds of times. It's very easy for me to recognize that intersection, even after 50+ years.
Glenn
You are making an unwarranted assumption that the location of the photo is the address contained in the data base. If there is no Plymouth dealership on that corner now, it is quite possible that the location changed after the photo was taken.
Tom
No, it's the corner of Penn St and Broadway. Lots very rarely change their numbering.
I can assure you that this has not been the case, as somebody who was very familiar with this intersection when the DeSoto dealership was in existence.
The New York Public Library now offers this service in lieu of microfilm. It is on the internet but accessible only from participating libraries.
--Mark
I can e-mail the R-16 article to you. It's in plain text.
I can't see into the show room. But the newest car is the 1950 Buick in front of the Buick dealer that's at the corner of Broadway and Rutledge. That's a pre-war Packard Clipper parked on the left.
Chrysler kept the same body between 1949 and 1952. It's really difficult to determine the exact year from just a partial front view. At least Buick alternated between torpedo and square backs between 1949 and 1950.
The only other clue that I can discern regarding the year is the absence of front license plates. They were removed in 1951 as an effort to conserve steel for the Korean War. You had to change your plates during the month of January in those days. The Packard has its front quarter window open - so it could be late May of 1951.
You're right. It's exactly 1 block east of Hewes St. I'ts Penn St. My grandparents lived on Penn St. a block and a half from this intersection.
No, the vacant land in the picture is west of Union Ave. It's the triangle formed by Union Ave, Montrose Ave and Broadway. It's now a police station.
There were several car dealerships in the area. There were also a Packard and Kaiser-Frazer dealers, in addition to the DeSoto/Plymouth and Buick dealerships visible in the picture. The area was used to as lots for these dealerships in addition to providing direct access to Union Ave for both Penn and Rutledge Streets. My guess is that the City may have taken over the block during the construction of the IND. That area is directly above the S 4th St station.
That identifies it as either Brooklyn or Queens.
So here they are from above and below the el. So the "after shot to go with the photo in the original post.
Glenn
There was a full intersection at Broadway for Penn St, when the original picture was taken. Penn St extended all the way to Union Ave, when the original picture was taken. That extension to Union Ave was not always there, as maps from the early 1900's show. I believe it dates from the building of the IND. The extension was eliminated sometime after the early 1960's. My guess is that the elimination was contemporaneous with the building of the police precinct, which is the white building on the left side of Broadway. The elimination represented a return to the original street layout.
I don't think so. They completely repaved that part of Broadway, down to the dirt, some time in the 1980's. That project took longer than anticipated because there was a strike against the contractor.
Europe has had POP payment on their Tramlines for the past 30 or so years, yet we're still wallowing in the mire that is token and cash fare on the train. Would it kill us to go to a self-service fare for passengers on LRT trains?
What other LRT systems use POP? I know Portland Streetcar, but is MAX's fare considered POP? How about Tacoma LINK? Or Denver's RTD? Baltimore's MTA? Dallas DART? Buffalo? Sacramento? Salt Lake City? St Louis? San Jose? San Diego? Tampa?
Thanks.
Another problem is that in Philly the Surface Subway cars run like busses over most of their route. Because there are no "stations" there is no easy way for people to pre-buy their PoP and if you have to sell fares on board you might as well just go with the traditional system.
This does not seem to be the case on the Los Angeles Blue Line which runs through Los Angeles's version of poor inner city neighborhoods. No one wants to go to jail, and many do not want to face a warrant check if questioned by police officers. Very few of the passengers have nothing to show a checking officer, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the tickets themselves were forged or altered.
Tom
It's odd, seems like all they systems that use POP could get along just fine without it. But the heavily traveled systems where cash fares and single door loading really slow things down have eschewed it entirely.
Although it's not marketed as such, and the violation fine is very small, most commuter rail systems use a variation of POP.
Well, maybe a very distant variation. Buying a ticket from the conductor on the LIRR or a similar commuter line is not a criminal offense or violation, in the same way that having no ticket on a POP system is. I would consider the criminality of the action, not the amount of the "fine," to be the major factor distinguishing a POP system from an LIRR-type system.
Why would you want an inspector on the train? Wouldn't it be easier to just grab them as they come off, especially on lines with limited access, like high-level platform lines (Edmonton, SF Muni Metro, LA, and St Louis)?
If a station check is the only form of enforcement, install turnstiles that can read the tickets and officially declare travel between other stations to be free. (Look no further than Staten Island for an example.)
Nor will train inspection nab anyone who does not happen to be in the car inspected. Somehow you are not getting the concept. They are random checks that may take place on trains or in stations. When they are done in stations, they are frequently done at the end of an escalator or around a corner. People get on the escalator not knowing there will be a fare check at the other end. People get off trains not knowing if there will be a fare check at that particular station at that time.
Tom
Fare inspection on crowded trains is impractical. Fare inspection at busy stations is impractical (or, with many inspectors, expensive).
Many stations don't have escalators or blind corners.
It is practical and it is done in Los Angeles. In crowded trains it is done only on the passengers closest to where the checker is. In crowded stations, it is done on a sampling of the people there. It is much easier in stations than on crowded trains, and that is where most rush hour checks are done.
>>> Many stations don't have escalators or blind corners. <<<
Every station in modern ADA compliant systems such as L.A. have escalators and elevators. It is the modern systems that are implementing POP.
Tom
It sounds quite easy to dodge the inspections. Wouldn't it be more effective and cheaper to automate the process by installing turnstiles? Of course, then it's not POP.
Every station in modern ADA compliant systems such as L.A. have escalators and elevators. It is the modern systems that are implementing POP.
Modern ADA-compliant systems like HBLR? Only a few HBLR stations have elevators -- the rest are at street level.
And ADA never requires escalators. Staircases are fine as long as there's an elevator, and if it's only a flight or two, most passengers will probably opt to climb.
Because the HHLR* stations are either at street level or have elevators, the system counts as being ADA-compliant.
* = I'll call it the HBLR when it actually runs to Bergen County.
In the immortal words (almost) of Horace Greeley, go South young man. Los Angeles is POP on all of its rail lines, both subway and LRV. During the rail fanning last weekend, the group went through only one fare check (no one arrested). I missed it, because I had departed the group to buy another ticket, and then took a different elevator to the platform because the closest one was OOS.
My personal belief is that POP is the way to go for ease of use and reduction of operating personnel.
Tom
I've now had to sit through three massive trolley backups at 19th and Market on the Subway-Surface trolleys in Philly. It's all because people can't figure out that they need either a token or 2 bucks, not a dollar thirty cash fare. I've come to the point that, despite my love of the K-Car and the Sub-Surface lines, if it's after 4:30 or before 6:30 and I have to go home, I'm catching the MFL, the Sub-Surface just backs up too much.
Here POP payment could also speed the trolleys, since it would be possible for the passengers to just get on, not have the bottle neck at the front of the trolley. It would also distribute the passengers better, right now they clump at the front for some reason, it is where they're supposed to stand, but idiots seem to clump, standing at the front while there are empty seats in the back, perhaps if people loaded at all doors they might even it out.
The issue of "naughty" riders is dealt with by the fare inspectors who occasionallu operate in tandem with the cops.
The San Francisco experience has been mixed. SF may be descrived as having a destitute/disovedient underclass similar in attitude to those in NY, Bos, but miniscule in absolute numbers. There has been much debate within Muni and Rescue Muni about implementing POP systemwide. The first rouyes had very flaky to non-existent enforcement--pair of cops riding but not challenging. Later the pattern shifted to cops in the main Metro runnel where there are still faregates/agents--but during rainy weather a cushy job. POP was extended to all LRV ;ones but not the Farket PCC's after some union foot dragging and nearly invisible enforcement. Then the semi official throwaway agitprop fliers suggested de facto POP on crowded buses especially artics. Most recently, as a part of our local version of the fare wars, the de facto POP was canceled and inspectoes sent out to enforce delaying the vehicles by having crush kiads pass the operator single file.
I thought San Francisco had a large skell population.
But BART is a commuter railroad with distance based fares disguised as a subway. The East Bay relationship to San Francisco is more like the Nassau County or close in NJ cities to Manhattan, rather than like the outer boroughs.
Tom
Errrrmmmm... distance based fares don't mean it's not a Subway - London has distance based fares.
Baltimore, Buffalo, St Louis, San Diego, Newark, Hudson-Bergen, Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco MUNI, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto.
All but Boston, Philadelphia, and Toronto use POP. San Francisco did not use it when I was last there (1993) but I understand that MUNI now employs POP (someone else can probably answer this).
POP makes so much sense when you're running a crowded line, or when you tend to run cars in trains, it helps with loading, speeding station dwell times, it allows the driver to pay more attention to the track, and it means that more cars can be coupled on without the adding of T/Os.
I was not aware that St Louis was a POP system, I've gotta ride it the next time I'm out there visiting family.
CG
Returning to topic, my observation is that random checks *do* work as an enforcement approach. They vary the approach - sometimes checks on leaving stations, sometimes on entering stations, sometimes on the train. The idea is that the passengers never know whether, and where, their tickets are going to be checked. I've mentioned before on this board the Amsterdam tram approach - plain-clothes people get on the tram, the doors close, and then they produce their ID and check tickets when the non-payers can't escape.
Thameslink trains have entry and exit turnstiles (like the London Underground), but not AFAIK at all their stations. Thameslink are also OPTO, without conductors, so they have roving ticket inspectors. The chances of getting one on you train are maybe 10% - enough to keep most people honest.
London Docklands LR has unstaffed stations and no barriers. The trains are automatic, so they have conductors but no drivers, and the conductors check the tickets.
Now that tokens are gone, everyone on the NYC Subway has to swipe something to get on to the system. The problem with an hypothetical system of random checking, though, would be that MetroCards are not human-readable, so any inspector could not check that the one the person is holding had been valid for entry to the system.
They could modify the equipment to issue a receipt when you run your card through.
This makes the most sense on selected very crowded bus lines where the length of the trip is greatly increased because they use articulated buses and it take several minutes at ebery stop to fill up the bus. The crosstown routes at 79th and 86th are probably among the worst. They could have validators issuing receipts on the sidewalks.
Notice that this one has Plug Doors
While this one has Folding Doors.
And I do not think it's a Left-right thing, as this shot shows a plug door and a folding door car coupled together.
Whats the story here? Two different orders? Cars picked up that were refused by another transit operator? Why so early in their exsistance would a LRT operator be running hetrogenous equipment?
Also, does anyone have a picture of the new Low-Floors the VTA is getting?
???? Try again (with crypto mode off), please.
Tom
Stay tuned for time, dates and lines Brighton Si, Scum Branch No
LOL!!!
Brighton Beach, SIMPERE MUY BIEN A MUY BONITA. Slime Bitch, NYET.
Now you're talking ! With all the Brighton posters on this board, we'll probably fill an entire car !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Prior to Chrystie St., the express tracks were used by rush hour BB trains, which terminated at 34th St. F trains also terminated there during nights and weekends. The only difference was that F trains had to switch over to the inner tracks while BB trains simply stayed on the same track from Rockefeller Center. The two routes didn't terminate at 34th at the same time.
D trains used the inner track until just before they reached 34th St., where they would switch over to the outer or local track. South of W. 4th, F trains would switch to the inner track before 2nd Ave. or later, Broadway-Lafayette. (Does anyone know this for sure?) D trains stayed put, since they used the Rutgers tunnel to Brooklyn and continued onto Coney Island via the Culver line - after 1954, anyway.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
That said, I would have put his feet in concrete and thrown him off the Whetstone.
Quite possibly, without Moses, we'd have NOTHING. No parkways, no expressways, and no mass transit to replace them either. He was practically the only game in town and I doubt that anyone else or some combination of anyone elses would have done a quarter of what he did.
Still, I'd sentence him to sit in traffic on the Van Wyck going perpetually back and forth between Kennedy and LaGuardia airports for not having extended the Queens Blvd IND at least to Kennedy Airport underneath the expressway.
Railways were there first. They didn't miss the airport with their transit systems, they missed their transit systems with their airports!
That said, it is actually quite difficult to site an airport right by a pre-existing train line; there are so many other factors (including of course NIMBYs) that come into consideration when siting an airport. London Gatwick is an exception - it was deliberately sited right alongside the London-Brighton main line, and the train station was built at the same time as the airport.
Gatwick was nicely thought out -- I always land there -- and Stanstead is a dream, apparently (I keep trying to figure out a way to fly into it), but then Europe understands that human beings weren't born with four wheels and a gasoline tax trust fund.
Gatwick's great. Cliffe will be even better, if it ever gets built, as the fast train would go to St Pancras' not Victoria.
and Stanstead is a dream, apparently
Stansted is a pain. It's a lovely long 3½ hour ride on a stopping train through the Fens. The line is so circuitous it even manages to go through Rutland (the smallest county in England).
Remember that they only got away with putting an airport there because it's in the middle of nowhere.
It isn't the same ones down for several years, just lots of them down at any given time. At the moment thetube.com lists eleven stations with escalator problems (usually only one out, so the remaining one runs upwards), of which six have a definite end date for the work and are therefore presumably planned.
At Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 there is one shortish flight of escalators from the platform to the "mezzanine" (though we don't use that term), from which pedestrian tunnels go off to the three terminals, and which is in fact one level below ground. There are other escalators/elevators/stairs once you get to the terminals.
At Terminal 4, the station is in the basement of the terminal and there are elevators from all the levels of the terminal down to the station.
At Gatwick it is a flat walk from the arrivals level of the south terminal, and then down one flight to the station platforms (which are in the open air). There are elevators and (I think) one escalator on each platform, which normally works upwards. The Gatwick Express has just got new rolling stock and is quite nice, but pricey.
British James: Stansted is a pain. It's a lovely long 3½ hour ride on a stopping train through the Fens."
It depends where you're coming from - literally and metaphorically - doesn't it?
Stansted is a very well-designed airport, which is what Mike meant, I guess. Unfortunately the only direct service to the USA from Stansted was an early cancellation after 9/11. There isn't much wrong with its train service to London, either. But trains from the Midlands are, as James says, circuitous and slow. At least they are better than the trains from where I live, which don't exist, so if I fly from Stansted I have to drive [43 miles in about 75 minutes (8-( ] or travel almost 100 miles into London and out again.
Okay, that's one opinion. IMO, what "destroyed" the Bronx (it's still there!) was the desire of returning WWII vets to raise families in houses with yards. And to purchase cars and have driveways to park them in. Leaving lots of large empty apartments needing to be rented. Add to that the desire of the lovely business-folk to encourage the relaxation of immigration rules so as to enable them to employ lower-wage workers who wouldn't bitch about working conditions any native citizen would rightly object to.
Of course, it wasn't all that cut and dried. But obviously, the mindset of those days meant up and out of the old neighborhood.
The Cross Bronx Expressways and urban highways of similar design have the dual effect of making the neighborhoods they run through less attractive while at the same time making suburbs more attractive.
It's possible to design urban highways that don't have this dual effect, but Moses didn't bother avoiding it (or perhaps he was seeking it specifically) once he got past the early parkway stage.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
They're doing something similar here in Denver on the new Southeast Corridor light rail line. The station at Colorado Blvd. and Evans Ave. will be called Colorado because there already is an Evans station on the existing Southwest Corridor. The Colorado station will be in an open cut, and the line will tunnel beneath Colorado Blvd. before turning southeast. BTW, the bridge girders for the University Blvd. bridge are now in place.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
And yes, the express tracks were continuous to 2nd Avenue.
There was also a 5th track between the northbound express and local between 2nd and B'way-Laf. This made it convenient to build the Chrystie Street connection to the Williamsburg Bridge.
Peace
David
Some World Series redbirds have already been sunk in the ocean. How do you explain that?
Future underwater Transit Museum annex :)
ROTFLMFAO
8-) ~ Sparky
I'll sign on the dotted line, I've always wanted a married pair...
-Stef
We'll have to try it out. Mechanically, there shouldn't be any major differences between them.
-Stef
I would imagine the trainline door controls should still work.
I thought that was you & 6688 ;^)
WARNING: These photos are not for the squeemish!
(photos from abclocal)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Peace
David
This issue will soon become of no concern once the MTA commences with their reconstruction of Corona Yard, sometime before the end of this decade. I believe thread were posted outlining a tour of the old yard in June.
The stretch between Bellport and Mastic is especially pleasing. Nice stretch of woods. (I think it's Southaven Park) It was like, "over the river and through the woods to Grandmothers' house we go!". Good to see sights like that are still around. And, being Long Island, at the rainy Mastic-Shirley station, there were a couple of jamoches in the shelter drinkin' and breezin'. Nothing I haven't seen for over 40 years already. They were typical Long Island guys, local boys.
And, I got to keep my ticket. Yep, the LIRR is a nice train set!
I know, that always killed me too. Look at Bay Shore; that yard that used to be between 3rd and 4th Avenues. And you know there was plenty of three and four track segments all along the Montauk branch. My brother remembers seeing coal trains serving the powerhouse at Central Islip State Hospital when he worked there. It's a childish wish, I know, but I wish I had been around when all those siding tracks were used. Damn Long Island Expressway, and its ilk....I think what is needed is some rail-savvy local government industrial planners pushing for rail-friendly industries along the rows.
I guess in one sense I'm lucky as I work right near a place called Amco Plastics in East Farmingdale right now. They get chemical tank cars worked every couple of weeks. I'll be out walking on break and will notice some switching going on. It's on the Central branch parallel to RT. 109. Three or four cars, usually.
And the passenger trains do zoom by at times. At around 8 a.m. westbound. East, at around 15:30, 17:30 and one or two more after that. I'd love to see the South Farmingdale stop re-open. Or for that matter, the site of the old Republic station too. One way or another, the Rt. 110 corridor is definitely in need of a railroad station in the E. Farmingdale/Melville central portion of Rt. 110.
Yeah, and that Heartland don't have the best jobs available in all those buildings either. Mostly, minimum wage open warehouse sweatshops, really. I've worked in a direct mailing place there and it's a hump, especially in summer. Not a lot of jobs to plan a future on. The caliber of the business-folk who run those businesses are, IMO, not the highest.
The owner of Heartland wants to build a "new-town" development on the Pilgrim State Hospital grounds. I've not seen even speculation on using the hospital spur line to at least get people from the development to the Deer Park station. The area can't support such a large increase in residential population anyway, as far as the local roads situation goes. But this guy blithely ignores these facts.
It should have been a rail-centric industrial development.
While the jobs at Heartland may not be the best* in absolute terms, they're probably the best that could be found at the location. If they were the type of jobs that required higher skill levels, the workers most likely would be unionized and would demand uneconomically high wages; in consequence, the employers would move to the Sunbelt. Which in rail terms might be a net gain, as I'd imagine a similarly sized development in most Sunbelt locations would have rail service, given the more enlightened attitudes toward rail freight found in most places outside New York.
* = what seems to be the biggest employer in Heartland is a back-office facility run by the payroll firm ADT. Jobs at that facility are likely a cut above the warehouse-type jobs elsewhere in the development. Of course, a back-office facility, regardless of location, is unlikely to be a rail user.
Indeed. Courier, postal service, fax and electronic transactions are the tools these places use. And airplanes: Banks and brokerage houses send trucks to the airport nightly to hook up with Bancjet and other carriers, who rush checks, and other negotiable instruments, to clearinghouses.
Bay Shore used to have Bay Shore Lumber and a couple other customers right at the "yard" surrounding Third Avenue.....also Selchow & Righter, east of town near Brentwood Road. They were the company that made the famous Scrabble, Parcheesi, and Trivial Pursuit board games until they sold out to Milton Bradley. West of town, there were a couple sidings in Brightwaters, on the westbound track. One was the telephone company, where they would receive carloads of telephone poles and cable reels. The other was Frank Brothers' Coal. The LIRR used to use the Frank Bros. siding to store MofW equipment such as track tampers in the late 1960's.
What happened to the barges across the harbor?
The "Surf Line" out here in California is another place where the freights have to give way to passenger/commuter.
The line is now owned by the Orange County Transportation Authority (Fullerton Jct. to the Orange/San Diego county line, and the North San Diego County Transit District from there south to the SD Trolley yard in San Diego. The entire route is dispatched by metrolink personnel -- and sees passenger traffic of Metrolink, Coaster and Amtrak. It also sees 2-3 freight round trips a day from San Diego out to San Bernardino, operated by Burlington Northern Santa Fe. But, those BNSF freights are put into sidings whenever a passenger schedule is imminent.
If that freight spur you're talking about is between "B" Tower and Bethpage Parkway, I found out that it used to go to that General Motors building adjacent to Rte.135.
It wasn't an assembly plant, I think it was a parts warehouse. Maybe the building is now that Sleepy's warehouse you mentioned.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like the same spur. There are two or three industrial buildings in the area, so Sleepy's may or may not be using the former GM warehouse. I don't remember what the other companies are.
Interestingly, when I first started using the LIRR six years ago, the spur was still plainly visible, while today it's almost completely disappeared into the undergrowth.
Southaven Park is north of the Sunrise Highway. The stretch between Bellport and Shirley that you saw is the Wertheim National Wildlife preserve in Brookhaven which the Carmen River rinds through. Thankfully it is a preserve, and will remain just like it is.
Speaking of Bellport, the other day I saw a NYA freight train sitting on the siding at the train station in Bellport with a green GP38-2. It was raining so hard that even though I had my camera with me, I didn't get out of the car to take a photo. They seem to use that siding alot while waiting for passenger trains to go by.
1) Came in too fast and passed the entire station and had to reverse in order to platform.
2) Never sounded his horn when approaching the station.
At first, witnessing this occurence, I wanted to take the next train which was the 12:15, but this was my only chance to board the Arrow III.
I understand the complexity of the Arrow III braking system, and the engineer should have braked earlier.
Would the engineer get written up for such a massive slip-up that required reversing?
Jimmy
As for the horn, that is entirely up to the engineer's preference. Sometimes at Metuchen (or at Elizabeth, Newark, or anywhere else), the engineer would sound the horn, alerting everyone in the station house to come out for their train, or the engineer will pull in w/o any sound.
Bad distance judgment maybe for that engineer? I've never had that happen before.
Now he will.
CG
1) What causes these "blips" in LED messaging?
2) Is the "self-correcting" method a new technology?
I had one R143 that was just displaying colored blocks. I reset the breaker and it worked fine minus the "(L)". Maybe the same situation here, or a defective sign.
- There were two window air-conditioners on the left side of #7771.
- The windows on #7771 were whitewashed.
- An American Flag was affixed above the second window A/C.
- There was a message on a black slate shown outside the motorman's window on #7771, but I couldn't read from the train I was on.
- The number was completely obliterated with black paint on the front-left number board.
- Both had green labels under its number plates.
- #7771 had the joint "#6 | #2" rollsign at the bottom, and the top featured the new font the T/A uses to make new rollsigns. It looks like Arial Narrow. Also in use for the new "Shea Stadium" rollsigns on the #7.
-I think there was an oddity on the rollsigns for #7770 but I'm not sure.
Questions:
1) If it is green under the number plates, which yard do they come from?
2) Could someone explain to be what this oddity is?
3) What was the message shown outside the motorman window of #7771?
4) What R-series cars are these?
5) Why is this in Canarsie Yard?
6) What was happening with the rollsigns? A mix of old and new?
7) Will this set be transportable?
2) Could someone explain to be what this oddity is?
3) What was the message shown outside the motorman window of #7771?
4) What R-series cars are these?
5) Why is this in Canarsie Yard?
6) What was happening with the rollsigns? A mix of old and new?
7) Will this set be transportable?
1. If green its either from 239 or Unionport.
2. It's converted cars [school cars I think]
3. I don't know
4. R26's
5. I really don't know but I suspect it had to do with availability of room
6. Last time I saw they had the Lenox rehab signs from 1998
7. Its possible
-Robert King
As to digital prints, these can be as good as or even better than the original photograph, depending on the scanner, printer and computer but most important the skill of the person doing the job. I've got thousands of one-of-a-kind beautiful sharp and clear large-size camera-negative-original prints of the IRT and BMT, particularly official Dual Contract photos, starting around 1900. But some were torn due to their delicate condition, and others had faded badly because of their age. But computer restoration technology allowed me to restore the prints to better than new. For examples, see eBay numbers 2176657476 and 2176657699. It's slow and expensive process but I feel gratified in being able to preserve these pieces of traction history.
There's a place for both conventional and digital photography.....
The source material is scanned and prepared (including whatever manipulation or restoration is wanted) on a graphics computer work station. Obviously, files can be bounced around on CDs, but there is one work station which itself is an intrensic part of the minilab. The output end of the minilab is in fact a photo minilab where the computerized image is output onto real silver hallide paper and developed conventionally from that point on. Even more interestingly, they can also produce output on film (E6, C41 of various sizes). This also has its uses.
-Robert King
www.forgotten-ny.com
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
If you're in the same boat as Paul, that is your choice and your business and I do not have the right to criticize you for what you do. Yes, I'm a Bus Operator and has it ever occurred to you that a person can have the ability and desire to turn a hobby into a business, whether full or part-time? If some of the transportation ethusiasts didn't do this, where would our models, books, photos, etc. come from? What have you done towards historical preservation other than complain? If you've done something worthwhile, then I congratulate you and encourage you to continue.
I do not have to justify anything to you or anyone. What I do is my business just as your business is yours. As to "constantly" hawking things on BusTalk and SubTalk, why don't you go to the Archives? See what I post. I offer hundreds of items each month on eBay (look at my excellent feedback), and make mention of this on BusTalk or SubTalk only when the item is special. "Constantly" would imply, in any reasonable or intelligent person's mind, a "spam" of continuing posts, not the very few mentions of special things on eBay I post from time-to-time. As to contributing things on these Talks, I only post something when I know the answer or can offer assistance. I'm not the type to open my mouth just to post or to say something which I know nothing about. If you're in doubt, again, go to the Archives. People with even a litte bit of class think before they speak.
And I don't hide behind a screen name. Neither does Paul Matus, whose work I admire very much. Why do you?
One of my most prized models is Matus' BMT Standard Car, which I bought from him when they came out and is still with me. If it weren't for enthusiasts such as Matus, myself and others a lot of material would have been lost and models never produced.
I know eBay is an attractive venue for offering your stuff because it is an easy way of doing business, but since you have negatives that you can print at will, have you ever thought of simply having a lot of thumbnails in a web store, so people could buy what they like, for a fixed price? When people can buy what they like at a reasonable price, there's little incentive to copy.
Yes, I have thought of offering the prints on an Internet "store," but, quite honestly, I don't have the time necessary to do such a project. This was the prime reason I couln't keep up with the Yearbooks - it took took much time and I refused to lower my quality standards.
My black and white prints are professionally hand-made from the camera original negative; the color prints as TIFFs from color slides, from 35mm to 4x5 originals. I also have the capability of producing 11x17 murals from the color slides. With today's technology, it is impossible to distinguish a good digitally-produced color print from one made by Kodak or any outside processor. Also, since the color print is made directly from the transparency, and there is no internegative, the digitally-produced color print is always sharper. Then, the average outside-produced color print only lasts from 10-20 years; Epson papers - which I use exclusively on a high-end Epson printer, have an expected life of at least 80 years, since their inks are pigments and not dyes. This, of course, is expensive but worth the quality. Ther is no substitute for a high quality print, black and white or color. You get what you pay for.....
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends. A prof at Georgetown U. apparently gave his students an assignment based on Forgotten NY, without telling me. AFAIC, it's some nice publicity.
To your point, though, I never copy stuff out of ebay for use in Forgotten. I don't have to...I have taken hundreds of photos.
And I might get a book deal out of it, if things come together correctly....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Gyros. The MTA has reveresed its ainti-food policy at Howard Beach.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'd hardly call myself alert at 3am. :-P The only way I knew it was when I got off the train after work and it was the only way out.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
IS THE MAP RACK THERE??????
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I agree it's a waste to discard perfectly good timetables because of an old fare mentioned on it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
When did the TA decide to abandon tokens officially?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
They were never intended to take tokens.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
The old Howard Beach station had some sort of exit on the southbound side (the side away from the airport). What happened to that?
Am I right?
I'll try to remember to take a look tomorrow when I leave.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
It's likely the next generation of subway turnstiles will have no token slot (obviously) and perhaps will have more advanced features involving the smart card system the MTA has been considering pre-Metrocard I think.
I assume unlimiteds won't be valid.
Has anything definitive been announced about a free transfer to the subway? Presumably, the direct subway-AirTrain turnstiles would deduct $3 from subway to AirTrain or $5 from AirTrain to subway.
Last year when I was in NYC they used good old turnstiles with 3 steel bars just like the CTA, my favorite. Now it looks like those new things are like the D.C. Metro or Bart. "fare gates" that have pieces of plastic that retract when you walk through.
In my opinion these are stupid for high volume systems like NYC or Chicago. It takes too long to wait for them to open and close between each rider. Regular turnstiles are much more effective and can handle a higher capacity of people.
They actually make sense at an airport transfer point. Ever try to wheel luggage through a turnstile?
Dude where have you been? This has been going on since October '02 (IIRC, maybe a little earlier).
As for the 7th, I don't even wanna KNOW what's up with THAT one...
That was a pretty good effort at hiding DG, but were the sneakers really necessary?
Yes, they were. Otherwise the person would be easily identifiable.
Hehe....That's simple since railfans must be terrorists, that must be a camera holding terrorist, with a kosher lunch in his backback. I could be wrong about the lunch though unless they opened up a kosher White Castle in Howard Beach.
The northbound platform isn't finished yet.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Okay, now as the only potential defender of the Chambers BMT -- in sixty years, are the baby Subtalkers going to be discussing Howard Beach and saying, "too big," "ceilings too high," "too gray in the rain," "what's with all that terrazzo," and trying to make it smaller?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unless you feel lucky. :-)
Not all of us celebrate Memorial Day on a Monday just because that makes for a convenient long weekend. As a North Carolinian I celebrate it on 10 May; other Southern states have chosen different dates. Our honoring of our brave soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice during the Late Unpleasantness so impressed Union General John A. Logan that he instituted a similar observance in the North, which later became known as Memorial Day. The date selected for it was 30 May, based on the Virginia observance with which Gen. Logan was most familiar.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The obvious advantage is a 1-seat ride to midtown for J/M/Z riders (those who board at Broadway Junction or points west). The flipside is that there'd be 5 services operating on Central Park West, which is arguably overkill.
Based on ridership patterns, it would appear that reinstating the Culver express would benefit more people.
A-is 5 CPW services really needed?
B-You would have to cut the B back if you want it to go via Concourse.
C-The J/Z and M would bring the services of the Broadway el to 4 on weekdays and the Willy-B can handle no more than 27-30tph. Weekends its no problem.
People who register to speak at the June 12th public hearing can of course touch on any topic they choose. But I don't think that reviving the K and/or increasing weekend service on Queens Blvd is relevant to the hearing's purpose.
I assume your point is that the A is the only route in the system that has multiple destinations at the same time. Under your proposal, passengers headed for points south/east of Rockaway Blvd would know with razor-sharp clarity which terminal a train was headed for, without having to look at the rollsign.
On the other hand, stations and platforms along most of the A's route would have to be signed with at least 3 letters (A/H/K), and in many places four or five letters (A/C/E/H/K), in addition to any other trains that share the route (e.g., along CPW, where there's also the B/D). I think that, for a majority of passengers, this change would muddy the waters, rather than clearing them up.
The Lefferts and Far Rockaway branches are two of the most lightly traveled in the system. I think that most who use them have figured out how they work. Bearing in mind that almost any change is usually greeted with some opposition, this idea likely qualifies as a solution in search of a problem.
On the other hand, if there ever were another reason to rethink the route assignments along 8th Avenue/Fulton, your idea might be worth a longer look. But to introduce route assignment changes gratuitously would be a bad precedent.
But the problem will get worse once the Airtrain goes to Howard Beach, and you get more total novices on the A train.
Of course, the worst is that they end up at Lefferts and take the bus instead, but that could cost them 30 minutes if traffic is bad.
I've suggested on occasion extending the C to Lefferts outisde of rush hour and running all non-rush hour As down the Rockaway line, terminating half of them at HB off-peak. That would double service to HB AND remove the confusion over which train goes where.
I think that that's a far more workable solution than re-labeling the three current "A" services as A, H, and K.
However, without more rolling stock this proposal would reduce C service, as C trains would now have a longer route, so it's not without adverse impact.
The J could be extended to Bay Parkway in rush hours. No new rolling stock would be required.
And what about the J/M/Z->8th Avenue transfer? Or the J/M/Z->V? There is no change available for B/D at Grand, and you have to go all the way to the tip of Manhattan just to get an uptown A/C train. Either that or pile onto a crowded A train at Broadway Junction.
I know it sounds ludicrous, but then that's all the more reason to push for one of the lines to be extended to the IND weekends, not weekdays. Why should one be cut back at all?
Yeah but it was a different time. Broadway/Brooklyn was in total shambles, and getting worse, so ridership was declining. The service was only run for a short period during rush hours, and not run very well. It would work much better now than it did then.
The real problem is that there is no where to terminate the service in Manhattan anymore. The "K" lost it's natural terminal at 57th Street when the 6th Ave line was connected to Queens Blvd. It still could have run when Queensbridge was the terminal of the 63rd Street line, but now the only was to do it would be be to combine the K (or M) with the V (or C as some discussed).
It's the L line west of ENY which needs service increases, because ridership here IS bursting at the seams. The F/V are conveniently available at Essex St. A wider stairwell from the southbound platform would be a nice upgrade.
Extend the V via the Williamsburg Bridge to Canarsie. It would run local while the J/Z runs express to or from Broadway Junction.
Terminate L trains at Broadway Junction. Add access to the spur track between 6th and 8th to and from the 6th Avenue end, and turn alternate trains at 6th. Now neither end of the L is constrained by a stub terminal. Increase service to whatever level is necessary.
BTW, there is now a wider staircase from the SB platform at Essex, leading directly to the IND mezzanine -- it opened two or three months ago. The NB platform still has the two narrow staircases.
When I first checked it out, there was a prominent sign at the new connection point to the J J Z. It was corrected in time for the tour a week or two later, but the M stick-on is obvious if you know it's there.
I don't buy it.
Sending the V down as an express in Brooklyn would be the better idea, since it would give those pax "in a big hurry" to get to or from 6 Av their express, while the local pax won't have to change trains. If they want 8 Av, well, the xfer at Jay or W4 won't kill them.
* Pax might have to wait for at least 2 other trains to pass them if they just missed the one they want, instead of possibly just one (as is the present case, or even if the V is extended).
* The switching north of Jay will, in all likelihood, create a bottleneck. And, if one of the services runs express, the merge/diverge at Bergen adds yet another opportunity for something to get fouled.
* If all the trains run local, then you're creating too much redundant service between Bergen and Smith/9th or Church. Again, the ridership figures that have been posted here in the past simply do not support the need for that much service on that portion of the line, especially since the bulk of the riders have a 6th Av destination.
* Because of where the switches are in relation to the Church Av station, and how they are configured, it would be difficult to turn two lines there at peak times. For it to work, the E would have to run to Kings Hwy. Doing this would also preclude peak express service on the Culver el.
* And, the ever-nagging question of where the cars would come from to support this rears its ugly head. The 143s aren't displacing enough cars, and the 160s won't be arriving anytime before 2005 at the earliest. Since the 160s are supposed to go towards retiring older cars (i.e., 38/40/42), enough cars probably wouldn't be available until some option or subsequent order, meaning it would be at least 2007 or 2008 before such a service plan could even be considered.
So, I say again, the current arrangement works as it is. If the V can be extended, wonderful. While it would be nice for Bway el riders to have a one-seater to midtown via Chrystie, there just isn't much of a chance of doing it without screwing someone else the way the system is built -- CPW can't support 5 lines running on it, QB is saturated, 6 Av is heavy and has no terminal options any longer, so there's just nowhere to turn this combined "C/M" at the north end. If you combined "B/M", Brighton riders would probably raise a huge ruckus if they only had direct service to Broadway and had to change for 6 Av. The only real chance would be when the upper portion of SAS opens (maybe sometime before the middle of the century), and they could send it up 6 Av and terminate it at 72 or 125.
6th Ave:
F: Queens, Manhattan and Bklyn express. 179th to Coney Isl.
V: Queens, Manhattan and Bklyn lcl. 71st/COntinental to Church.
B: Bx, Manhattan and Bklyn lcl. Bedford Pk Blvd OR 145th to B'way Jct.
D: Bx, Manhattan exp, Brighton Lcl. 205 to Coney Isl. Via bridge.
B'way:
N: Queens, Manhattan and Bklyn lcl. Ditmars Blvd to Coney Isl.
R: QUeens, Manhattan and Bklyn lcl. 71st/Continental to 95th St.
W: Queens lcl, Manhattan and Bklyn exp. Ditmars to Coney Isl. Bridge
Q: Manhattan and Brighton exp. 57th to Brighton Beach. Via bridge.
Yes, I kept the W. No, I didn't re-name the "B" the "K," even though I'd like to. This just seemed like the most practical and simplest way to do this. Both B'way and 6th Ave. have 2 locals and 2 expresses. What do you all think?
I can see some value to this, as it would eliminate potential confusion for JFK riders, some of whom are tourists who don't know the system inside out. If it's done at all, the sign for Lefferts Blvd trains should be H (historically an IND letter), not K (historically a BMT Eastern Division letter).
However, this is a more expensive proposition than most people realize, what with all of the signage and literature that would need to be redone. I don't see it happening unless there were some other simultaneous change going on along the same route.
I do not see much value in re-signing Rockaway Park trains. There are just 5 trains daily in each direction between Rockaway Park and 59th St. Those riders who care about these specific trains are most likely regular commuters who know the drill.
Conductors do not say tha. They say, "This is an A to Far Rockaway." I've never looked at Rockaway Blvd, but some platforms in Manhattan have signs that say, "For JFK Service take a Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park train." These signs aren't as conspicuous as they could be.
"Take the next train (pointing to the Manhattan side) one stop to Rockaway Blvd. Cross under at the front of the train, Take the A train on the other platform that says ROCKAWAYS. If you don't, you'll come back here. And sometimes people do."
Some C/Rs do and some don't.
That would solve the problem, except in rush hour, when mostly regulars are riding.
I do not see much value in re-signing Rockaway Park trains. There are just 5 trains daily in each direction between Rockaway Park and 59th St. Those riders who care about these specific trains are most likely regular commuters who know the drill.
As you said its only 5 rush hour trains so why waste money on producing new rollsigns and coming up with a new route.
Well, the A is the only route that, at the same time of day, can have up to three service patterns. Many routes' service patterns change depending on the time of day, but at a particular time there is normally just one pattern per route—not that the signs necessarily are accurate in portraying it!
However, as I said, I don't see this changing unless a substantive change (as opposed to a mere re-labeling) goes with it.
:-) Andrew
Sometimes the regular customers don't know the difference between the train to the Rockaways and the train to Lefferts.
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Those F59's really do look hot don't they. Way to go NCDoT
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#North
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
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Its worth a read...or at least a glance
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#RSI
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On a related note, wouldn't one think that either insurance or, in the case of a grade crossing collission, the trucking companies insurance pay for repairs? If so why did it take so long to get the repair $ together.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Amtrak
Hate to say it, but Amtrak, being a large entity, is self-insured. That means anything they need to repair as a result of a collision comes right out of their own (empty) pockets.
In the case of an accident caused by another entity, the litigation can take years to settle, sometimes....
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Here we go again
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Acela
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httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Oregon
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Its about time someone did something about the rampent misinformation campaign that has been directed against long haul trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Western
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Its about time someone did something about the rampent misinformation campaign that has been directed against long haul trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Irked
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Keep your eyes peeled, this would be a great way for all you transit ppl to learn something about real railroading.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Norfolk
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Just imagine if Amtrak could get all those wrecked cars out and earning revenue. It might also mean less crowded trains and the oppurtunity for us railfans to secure seats on both the trackside and lineside of the train.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Norfolk
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05192003.shtml#Beech
The Chinese notices are written, not typed.
Enjoy
They do that every so often also when they do GOs at the Canal Bridge platform. Many times (if they do decide to but up signs if the station is closed) use handwritten Chinese signs.
...the last two excluded of course as they don't have handles.....
BTW, I didn't realize the 1 was changed to the shuttle route (2nd to last photo) and put outside on an elevated during the course of it's route....
The second through fifth were all on a single train, a 5 shuttle (GO) between E180 and Dyre. This was on a field trip organized by Harry Beck.
Ahhh, that explains it....no wonder all the signs were changed to some strange routings....a group of railfans and knobs that turn the rollsigns.
LOL...... :)!
I've never seen the disc you refer to, but that doesn't mean it never existed.
I think I even saw a JFK bullet in one of them.
The R32s still have the JFK bullet.
How bout a U:
A J and a K
Oh and for the rookies out there, tip #1: When taking pictures, try not to fall out of the window:
Here's an R-32 B train I once rode from, uh, Times Square to Lex:
Approximately 20 minutes later, arrived, hopped on the LIRR shuttle to Willets Pt. It was a hassle just finding the shuttle, and once we got there, they walked us down to the end of the train. Why they were using a full 8 or 10 car train is beyond me at 11 PM is beyond me, many cars were locked off and the ridership didn't warrant it.
I didn't feel like taking pics because I was with a non-railfan, but that's not the point right now. Anyway, upon getting to Willets and standing on the entry line, I dipped my card into the "bus" type farebox, and it took off another $2.... whaaaa?
Is this the way it's supposed to work when transferring from private bus to MTA property? I don't see why they don't just take off another fifty cents. Or maybe it was that they were using their bootleg "bus metrocard readers", but even so, shouldn't transferring from a private bus to an MTA bus just cost the extra 50 cents?
I guess what I'm asking is, what happened? Why'd I get charged $2 for what should've been a free (or fifty cent) transfer?
JOKING! :)
No, just the quite before the storm.
I've heard that there was an item in the new budget about this.
The last comments from the TA said they would meet with the City again about this at the end of June.
We, at the "privates", have found that the MIS folks in the TA forgot to include a few table matches in system.
Disclaimer: Just speaking for myself here based on things that I've heard.
All he has to do is call (212) METROCA and they'll send a new $2.00 Metrocard to him.
What conditions must we meet in order to be sent a $2 MC from TA?
Except I got a $1.50 card, not a $2 as that was the fare at the time.
It was one of those SWIPE CARD AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE things, except the turnstile didn't want to work no matter how many times I swiped.
The ridership during the day did warrant the full train, and it's foolish to pay extra personnel to drop cars for the evening, store them somewhere, then bring them back for the morning.
:s
On to my question... you can't see them in this picture but towards the south end of the bridge there are concrete platforms (which are now broken). What were those platforms used for? IIRC, they're not at the right height for loading things on and off of a train.
#3 West End Jeff
the old style cement platforms were clasic. tiling them up like the rest of the new stations will remove some of it's charm.
I would often visit on my lunch hour when I was working on montague street
It would be a shame to renovate a classic NYCT station to a modern look. It would be nice to add some of the old track smell also.
Don't know why but I love the smell that comes off the wooden ties in the summer time. It would not be summer without it
Eau de cresote !
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.mta.info/museum/general.htm
#3 West End Jeff
Bill "Newkirk"
The Sea Beach Fred museum !
Bill "Newkirk"
(sorry, just COULDN'T resist)
--Mark
However, as a betting man I'm putting my money on the Transit Museum Reopening on the same day as the Opening of the Second Avenue Stubway...two celebrations in one :)
--Z--
There's no mention of the rest of the museum.
Whatever the merits of the AirTrain, I think you need to look at the whole project. To have built the system solely to provide the Howard Beach connection would have made no sense, but that wasn't why it was built. The project has a whole bunch of objectives, of which the A train connection is a part. Given that the system was being built for a host of reasons, it would have been insane to omit a station at Howard Beach.
Now, I don't know what was spent on that particular station, but I think that David's figures, as well as his reasoning, are wrong. A taxi ride from practically anywhere in Manhattan to JFK is at least $45, including tip. You couldn't do it for anything like $30 unless the taxi had wings. I assume he is right about the bus fare, but you catch the bus and the train from different places.
For instance, I am going to JFK later today, and I will be taking the A from Canal Street, near where I work. There is no equivalent bus route that I'm aware of. Even after the AirTrain launches, paying $7 instead of $45 will be worthwhile to me. Also, although the taxi would usually be faster, the time the subway takes is less variable—knock on wood!!
I do think the AirTrain is overpriced at $5, but that could change.
Presumably it's OK to take the tourists for a ride out to Long Island once they've spent already spent their money in the city. We just don't want to sour them on the Big Apple just as they arrive.
CG
"The Taxi & Limousine Commission is conducting a "Flat Fare" program for trips from John F. Kennedy International Airport to Manhattan.
The flat fare is $35.00 plus any tolls. The meter will not be turned on and the night surcharge will not be added.
If passengers request multiple stops, the flat rate of $35.00 will be collected at the first stop in Manhattan, and the meter will be turned on for the remainder of the trip. The metered fare should be collected at the last stop, from the last passenger."
Not unless there's been a recent rule change that I missed. The flat fare applies on trips from JFK, not trips to JFK.
Also, the $35 flat fare is JFK to Manhattan, not JFK to anywhere in the 5 boroughs.
I think it already has. If they take pay-per-ride Metrocards, and deduct "$5.00" from the card, all but the naive and the truly incidental visitor will be able to pay $4.17 instead.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.sfoairport.com/guide_nonflash/airportinfo/AirTrainBrochure.pdf
The JFK and Newark Airtrains are paid for through a different method than what is used to fund the PATH, NYC Subway etc.
The EWR and JFK Airtrains were built with Federal PFC money, passenger facility charge. The PFC is a $5 dollar surcharge put onto Airline tickets, the money goes to a Federal fund meant to fund Airport improvement projects. The money can only be spent to improve facilities for airport travelers, who are the one's who "fund the fund" for lack of a better term.
The terms of the funding indicate that service improvements be limited to air travelers.
Hence the $ 5 dollar surcharge on JFK Airtrain tickets, EWR has a $5 dollar surcharge on tickets from NJ destinations to EWR, a $7 dollar surcharge is added to NY Penn-EWR tickets (that's unfair!).
The PATH is paid for through Federal transit funds, which is different than PFCs.
Federal Transit money does not need to be repayed, PFCs do need to be repayed (thus the Surcharges on Airtrain tickets).
The Second Ave Subway and Hudson Bergen Light rail are Federal Mass transit funded projects, (if SAS gets built) they don't need to repay the Feds. If they did the SAS fare would be $10-$20 bucks per person.
The Washington Metro's stop at Washington Reagan National was paid for through Federal transit funds, which is why there is no surcharge there. Same with the proposed Metro extension to Washington Dulles Airport.
San Francisco I believe is the only other city currently building a Airprot link to their transit (BART) system, I believe they are using the same method as JFK. It's even called "Airtrain".
The State of NY did not want the Port Authority to apply for Transit funds to pay for the JFK Airtrain because it would take away precious funds for other projects like the SAS, East Side Connection etc..
If they did use transit funds their would be no surcharge, and the transfer from the Subway would probably be only $1.50-$2.00.
As it stands now the surcharge for the JFK Airtrain will be $5 dollars, which means you add the Subway/LIRR fare to that.
So to take the A train to JFK connecting to the Airtrain will cost you $7.
There is no $5 surcharge on AirTrain tickets within the airport or even between the airport and the parking lots. There is no surcharge at all.
One of the parking lot stations is in spitting distance of the Howard Beach station. It will cost $5 to travel between Howard Beach and the first parking lot station and $0 to travel the rest of the distance to the airport.
There is no pedestrian access between Howard Beach and the parking lot. It doesn't matter if you can see your car from the subway platform -- the only way to get to it is to pay $5 and ride AirTrain one stop.
If they did use transit funds their would be no surcharge, and the transfer from the Subway would probably be only $1.50-$2.00.
There is no surcharge at all for any other improvements within the city paid for with transit funds. In fact, there usually isn't a transfer -- there's direct through service.
The extension would also be paid for through the PFCs collected by EWR's 35 Million passengers, so the fare to ride the PATH to EWR will be about $7-$9.50.
Depending on whether they use the $ 5 dollar surcharge or the $7.50 surcharge that is put on NJ Transit tickets from NY Penn to EWR.
I think when the airtrain starts operating in November people going to the airport are going to prefer paying $5 for a train going to their terminal instead of a taxi that would cost about $40.
Due to the delay caused by the testing accident, the whole schedule got changed. We may find both legs opening at the same time.
Usually when the subway fare goes up, cab fares go up too.
At midway everything, including the Orange Line is within, free, walking distance of the airport. The station actually got closer with moving the terminals to the East side of Cicero Ave. Only $1.50 to ride the L downtown for the 25 min. ride. Which will be reduced by a min or two in a couple months when the new speed limit on the new Harrison S curve is bumped up to 35 MPH after all construction is complete.
At O'Hare, the blue line is a good 5 to 10 minute walk from anywhere in the airport. There is also that mono-rail, "air-train" type thing that runs through the airport terminals, parking lots, stops near the L, and serves the Metra train station. Again absolutely free, Although you do have to take a free shuttle bus to cross the busy street between the last shuttle station and the Metra Station. Again only $1.50 to ride the L downtown for the 45 min. ride. Or $3.30 on Metra to go to Union Station for connections with some other Metra routes and all Amtrak routes. Although 6 trains on weekdays only isn't that convient. But they are increasing the popular service with the double tracking project currently underway.
He made an observation about the kids that is also true of some older railfans:
"But for the subway whiz kid, there is a much bigger attraction: knowing more than anyone else, particularly mom and dad."
Randy also asked one of the kids if the Z runs on the weekend? I liked his description of the kid's response:
"Aidan looked weary and disappointed, as if he'd explained this a thousand times. "Are there rush hours on weekends? I don't think so."
I don't know if Aidan is posting here at subtalk yet, but it seems like he has the attitude that will make him fit in quite well.
They Know the ABC's. Also DEFGJLMNQRSVWZ
A friend of mine didn't believe me when I told him that I remembered when the 63rd Street Tunnel opened in 1989.
Nah, slap him down hard. Let him know what the real world is like. :-)
Tom
T/O sees people eating halfway back in first car, as we leave station, he yells over the PA "NO EATING ON THE TRAIN!!!" and then came back to look through the railfan window to make sure they stopped.
Much of the time, I'm drinking Pepsi or some other soda on the train, I'd hate to get ticketed for it.
There's supposed to be a question mark in there, but I forgot it.
If you are drinking from a 20 oz. plastic bottle with a screw top you are probably ok between swigs. A can or paper cup is probably a violation. The logical test is if you drop it will it spill?
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Didn't know about Otis making railcars though - anybody got pics? Do they have folding gates instead of doors? :)
Reichstestad gepruft! :)
(And it's on topic....it's a subway ad on the wall in my basement...)
Really? If that's the case, we New Yorkers must have gotten used to the filth we ride every day. Every person I know who's used the PATH at least once are so flabbergasted as to how PATH trains are so much cleaner than the NYCT's are.
PATH riders seem a little neater than their subway counterparts. Dunno why, but it just seems that way.
Way back when, when I was little more than an ankle biter, my dear departed mother who didn't believe in corporal punishment explained to me how wrong it was to put my feet on the seats, or make loud noise, or annoy other passengers. She would do that with a reasoned discussion of proper behavior, right after she had whacked me up side my head to get my attention whenever I transgressed. These days parents don't seem to understand how persuasive such instruction is.
Tom
Many people are clods though. The other day I was on a 6 train and the woman across from me was eating fried chicken. When she was done with each piece she flung the bones on the floor in front of her (along with her greasy napkins).
At the time you saw an R-40 or R-42, they were not run by opposing companies (consolidation occurred in 1940), and the 7 line was strictly an "A" division line (since 1949).
Tom
Incidentally, the 7 line is actually built to handle BMT/IND sized cars. The only part of the 7 that can't handle wider cars is the Steinway Tubes (and the Manhattan portion of the line).
I wouldn't be surprised if they joined subtalk by their 12th birthdays.
Have you ever waited for a local on the upper west side (IRT any time, CPW on weekends)? Or on the Fulton St. line? You too would be arguing there aren't enough locals.
(And I actually live at an express stop myself.)
Please, don't even get me started on weekend CPW/8th Ave/Fulton line local service.
(At least on some lines.)
Nor have they begun to figure out how to get a set of handles. They don't have the moxie they used to. :-)
Tom
It's nice to know though that there are young'uns coming up with OUR malfunction intact though.
I used to LOOOOVE going through Times Square with my dad to catch the #7 and stopping to give directions to all the tourists and confused straphangers. I felt very superior knowing every subway line and not even being a regular commuter at the time, whereas tourists and regular commuters alike would all be stumped at how to get from Union Square to Church Ave, for example. "Take the (Q) right behind you, duh! Else get the 5 diamond upstairs".
In fact I had memorized all the maps from 1978 up to 1995 (I have unfortunately forgotten them since) and I could actually have a conversation with someone older about their daily commuting experience catching the K or the KK the QJ, or when the 2 went to New Lots, and many others about the chaos of the ever-changing J terminals during the construction of the Archer Ave. line. I even had two subway maps posted on the walls in my room, one of 1978/9 and one of 1996.
Wellll.. in the early 70s, this logic resulted in the NEW a/c'd trains being broken up and sent around the system as salad trains. Just so there would be some ac'd cars on each line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Luckily I never, ever saw any R-10s mixed in with any other cars. Apparently it wasn't done often because the doors on the R-10s would open late.
This is merely supposition. I'd like to hear what Train Dude thinks on the matter.
-Acela
And I think he's asking if you could split, as an example, a R36 married pair, and run each independently from the other. The answer for an R36, or 'catholic' married pair is, IIRC, no. But there are plenty of other married pairs that are made from single units semi-permanently coupled to form trainsets. In that case the answer basically is, "It depends."
Hey No Problem!! Glad to help out!, It had nothing to do with the post at all, I just felt like putting the sound in.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Oh Ok, maybe he meant that.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
I switch wildly between connections, at school I've got T1 or T3 (100mbps!!!), but when I come home it's either 56k in my room or cable in the basement. Needless to say that .WMA file gave my 56k AOH an anurism.
Also, I watched the original RailRoad.net get taken down by people messing with the html stuff and inserting offensive music (or even just curse words recorded over and over in flame wars), and such that eventually killed it. That kind of stuff drove me here, and I'd just as soon not see it happen here as well, especially considering the antiseptic site that RR.net has become...
Once again, thanks
Will
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Please at least read the FAQ before answering an FAQ.
An individual car in a married pair can not operate by itself.
It will either have no battery or no air. A car needs both to
operate.
Even those so-called "protestant" married pair cars (which no
longer exist) could not operate singly.
I believe (Train Dude, jump in here) that the only revenue
equipment which can currently operate singly are the un-modified
R62As. (However, the RTO rulebook prohibits this operation,
where mechanically possible).
I think he was referring to the pair, not an individual car. At least that's how its worded.
An ages old bulletin. regardless of the media, they can't move. This is supposedly due to yard safety as they did allow single car moves at one time. Hoever in the "safety" minded atmosphere that is now the TA, the speed required to cross a switch and make it to the other side with a single car is unacceptable to the TA.
Ditto for R-22 7339 in Pelham 1-2-3.
I still say 1689 deserves a sister playmate.:)
I can still hear Lou during my first turn at the handles: "Brake....more brake.....more brake..LAP!!!! SCREECH!!
Found it a LOT easier to do in triplevalve given the behavior of the stand. Like I said, I *love* 1689 ... it was like all the other Arnines. Each had its own personality and its own way of doing things and you just had to feel them out by your third stop on your trip. Given how subway cars worked back in my day, you didn't get written up, supervision was glad to see a train AT ALL as the natives on the platform slowly began to surround them. "Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch, where's my GOT DAM TRAIN?" :)
Guess I didn't closely enough while you were running 1689. I'm sure it was like riding a bicycle. In my case, Like anything else, practice makes perfect.
OTOH give me two of 'em and I'd be perfectly happy to play conductor.:)
Is this true of all NYC cars as far back as married pairs were used? (I'm not counting BMT A/B's - I'm fairly sure those could be run singly... right?) I ask because CTA 6000's can be run by themselves - each car has all of the equipment it needs. Or so I think. Anyway, it's been done at IRM.
Frank Hicks
Single units (1-60) can run singly.
The married pairs have 1 car with the MG set and the other with the batteries.
AFAIK, all 6000's were built a two-car married pairs.
Frank Hicks
6655 & 6656 are two halves of a married pair.
Unless I'm not reading my PCC knowledge correctly.
On a PCC car (and CTA spam cans are PCC cars, as PCC technology is used) the only thing batteries are used for is to close the MG contactor when starting the car. Once the contactor is closed and the MG powers up, the 36 volts from the MG keeps the contactor closed.
TTC had a requirement that when relieving the car, the oncoming operator was to turn the MG switch off and allow the MG to coast to a stop, then turn the MG switch back on. If the MG failed to start, the batteries were bad and the car was to be turned in.
BTW, if you have a picture of a single car (that is half a married pair) operating by itself, please e-mail it to me.
All 6000's are complete cars, with propulsion controls, M-G's, batteries, the whole works. The only thing that keeps them from operating as singles is that the train always thinks it's broken in two, because there isn't a locked-up controller at the back end (i.e. the emergency wire 17 has no voltage source and so the Emergency Relay won't pick up). This is easily fixed by either tying wire 17 to TB+ (seeing as you probably have all the trainline wires sticking out the back end draped around the stovepipe, this is pretty easy) or by putting in your MUDC key and pressing the STEM, DOOR, and ATC buttons in the cab. This forces the door and emergency relays to pick up.
Regarding what the batteries do. I guess you could say that he's right, all the batteries do is pick up the MG contactor. But the battery supply, generated by the MG, operates almost everything else on the car that's not heat, light, or propulsion current. One of the biggest functions is to keep the train from going into emergency by keeping the emergency relay picked up when you go over a 3rd rail gap. Also, when you use the track brakes, they take more current than the MG can provide continuously, so the batteries provide some of that. So in a more practical sense, without batteries, you wouldn't get far.
And now that you mention it, I think I do have a couple of photos of these cars operating singly on shop moves... I'll have to see if I can find those.
-Frank Hicks
The only cars to run alone are the R33/36 WF singles, R62A and R68.
An former marrried car converted into an A car would be able to as well.
I was reading a post recently which touched on the fact that the Queens Boulevard line has just about reached its full capacity and under current conditions cannot take any further ridership increases. I also read a post a while ago which said that the Rockaway Park branch has plenty of spare capacity due to the fact that it has pretty low ridership.
As a result I would be interested to know which lines in the system are at or approaching capacity at peak times, and also which have some spare capacity. I don't mean in terms of number of trains, rather number of riders. Aside from the obvious jam-packed lines (Queens Boulevard, Lex, Flushing) which others are full to bursting in the rush? Is yours? And which ones are less crowded? Dyre Ave? Or are all lines jammed in the rush?
Thanks in advance
Tim
- Queens Blvd express and 53rd St tunnel, Lex express, Flushing Line.
- Possibly the L because the signaling is so screwed up at the 8th Ave end that it can only turn 15 trains per hour.
- The Manhattan Bridge is close to 100% capacity (currently about 27 tph)until the north side reopens.
- The 60th St tunnel is close to 100% (currently about 26 tph).
- The 6 is probably at 90% capacity (21 tph).
Additional capacity on the 2/3 can be implemented by getting rid of the 5s to Flatbush and replacing them with west side IRT trains.
Spare capacity, even under current work rules and signaling systems, exists on all other lines.
http://www.nymtc.org/files/hb2000-at-a-glance.pdf
The following web site gives the numbers of people entering and leaving the "hub" during the peak hour on a weekday in 2000:
http://www.nymtc.org/sector.html
All of this data applies only to "cordon crossings", i.e. people and vehicles entering and leaving the "hub", defined as Manhattan south of 60th Street.
The figures are itemized by street, rail line, subway tunnel, ferry etc. for each mode of travel.
In the case of subways the data includes the number of trains and the number of subway cars on each line.
Different lines have different ridership capacities, depending on the number of trains per hour that can be run, the number of cars per train, and the physical size of each car.
IRT lines (A-division) mostly have 500 foot long trains, and their cars are 8 feet 10 inches wide.
BMT and IND lines (B-division) mostly have 600 foot long trains and their cars are 10 feet wide.
The number of trains that can run on each line depends, of course, on the number of tracks. And it depends also on signaling, dwell times at busy stations, terminal capacity, the number of merges and diverges with other lines, and especially at-grade crossings where one train has to cross the path of another.
I have seen it said that a four-track line cannot in practice carry twice as many passengers as a two-track line.
Most trains are relatively empty near their outer terminals, but there are exceptions, such as Flushing and Jamaica, which are fed by buses from their surrounding catchment areas. Far Rockaway is at the other extreme!
The Hub Bound data was compiled in 2000, before the 63rd Street tunnel was fully opened. The E and F trains both ran via the 53rd Street tunnel, which gave that tunnel the highest ridership of any (two-track) cordon crossing in 2000. The Lexington local and Lexington express took second and third place, but with smaller IRT trains they were probably no less crowded. Although the E and F now run in separate tunnels, they share the same tracks along Queens Boulevard, which limits the service that can be provided.
1) Have there been any instances of slow services because of issuing Single Rides instead of tokens?
2) Are the tokens gone for good?
Almost definitely.
2) Are the tokens gone for good?
Yes.
Mark
I state that every single time I enter the system.
Upgraded to Twice-a-visit after that blank MC sale of mine in the Bronx.
This would take pressure off the MVM's at tourist stops such as times square as most tourists are in pairs anyway
I am actually surprised that you would be advocating use of the fare booth as you've been arguing since you first came here that station agents should be phased out. Note that I am not attacking you, it just seems odd in light of your well-known stance.
A growing trend in the subway is to replace the token slots with a flat piece of metal.
Off-hand:
1) I spotted R32 #3539-3538 as the 2nd and 3rd cars of an A train stored at 200 St. (IIRC) If it is 200 St., why are there express tracks here?
2) Is there an instance on the 8 Av. Exp. line where there are six tracks (two side platforms, four express tracks) and only four tracks are in use? If so, why was it configured this way?
3) History of Atlantic Av. on the L:
It was sad to see tracks and the metal supports broken up, and most of all, the metal structures that went up toward the sky and abruptly stopped out of nowhere. What was the original plan at Atlantic Av. on the L? Why and who used each of the four tracks on a double platform there?
Brooklyn Academy of Music, located about a block away from the station.
2. At 135th st, there are six tracks, the 2 non-revenue tracks can be used for work trains as needed.
3. There were several different lines that all used Atlantic Ave/Canarsie line station. In addition to the 14th St Line, the Broadway El. had some rush hour trains to Rockaway parkway. The old Fulton st el. merged with the Broadway BMT and Carnasie lines then veered off onto Pitkin Ave (hence the two tracks that rise above the RP-bound L trains then went OVER the Manhattan bound L track, soon to be history next week.)
I don't think that's possible. How does a married pair become the 2nd and 3rd cars. They'd need to be 1st and 2nd or 3rd and 4th. 200th street has no express tracks. those are the yard leads to 207th Street yard i think.
1. How are they 2nd and 3rd cars of a set, that's impossible [except on the 7 which the single unit makes a difference]
2. If you're talking about Hoyt Schemerhorn, two of those tracks lead to the Transit Museum and the disused platfroms are used for movies nowadays.
3. I know at times there were trains that used the Jamaica-Canarsie connection so I assume Atlantic was a busy station before.
There are so many mismatched pairs of R-32, it is possible to have two consecutive numbers as the second and third cars. Not those numbers, though. It could have been 3421-3558-3559-3904.
There was an oddity of the announcements on this particular car, in that the announcements wouldn't go off until the doors opened, and the LED panel was wrong to begin with. At E. 105 St., the announcement said "This is Sutter Av.", while the strip map was lighted in the wrong direction with Sutter blinking and the LED's for Livonia, New Lots, 105, and Canarsie were only lit. It wasn't until New Lots until the strip map lit up with an array of LED's except for 105th, and Canarsie, and the announcements were right, except they came after the doors opened. The announcements would go from (if the population was sparse) after "This is ---" to "Stand clear...". And on the way to Canarsie, the conductor would play "This is a Brooklyn-bound L train". Stand clear... Otherwise if the station was crowded, he would play the full message.
Another thing, the strip map and the LED signs wouldn't cancel when the doors clicked closed. The strip map was still blinking and the LED panel still displaying "THIS IS SUTTER AV.". The train would start, and it wouldn't be until midway between stations the correction of the next station stop. It seemed like the train was running a one-man operation.
1) What is the explanation for this oddity?
2) Is this a problem that is not a priority for yards to fix?
Also, how are the doorbells on these trains configured? I placed the R142(A)'s and R143's characteristic of the double doorbell when the doors closed, but soon that was fixed, and the R142 #2 train I rode from Atlantic to 34th St. exhibited a "dong" a second after the doors started closing, then a "ding". Then the next station stop, "dong. Ding-dong" "click-click".
100% of the L trains I saw were R143's. Are the R42's completely removed as of now?
Its not a characteristic so much as what the C/R is doing.
-Acela
No It wouldn't make sense at all, it depends who makes the Model, it doesn't matter when they were purchased, They have different Trucks, but the motors maybe different.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
When TA contracted, they specified certain manufacturers of parts for all the New Tech. I've had little time around the Kawasaki trainsets but do know they used the same manufacturers for most major components. Kawasaki trains have Japanese built AC traction motors and controllers...brake units are Wabco but not interchangable with R142s because of the mounting hardware (horizontal 'easy to change out brake shoes' versus R142 vertical 'bust your knuckles.') CI Peter
Wao.
The 7 runs 11-car trains, except in the summer. No other IRT lines have platforms long enough for 11-car trains, or they'd surely run 11-car trains. Original IRT local platforms were originally only 5 cars long!
1) Did AMTRAK fix these because the old ones were wearing away?
The switches east of Metropark were intact.
Amtrak is installing high speed tunrouts at Metropark (ISELIN and MENLO interlockings) so that the train that stop there no longer have to spend 2 miles running at LIMITED speed (45 mph) in preparation for the crossover.
John
I almost didn't feel a thing when we went over those switches on track 1 and 4, as opposed to the clackety-clack I would hear many times for the older ones.
Frankly, I think that the cab signal system needs to be modified to allow trains on APPROACH LIMITED to travel 60mph, not 45. Trains on both APPROACH MEDIUM and APPROACH SLOW get 15mph leeways in the approach block to the interlocking. It makes no sence that APPROACH MEDIUM and APPROACH LIMITED should carry the same cab signal. The new fangled ACSE CSS should allow for some tweaking.
How would this apply to the accident where a train (a MARC train in Maryland, right?) engineer ignored an Approach signal, came around a corner at 60+ and then couldn't stop in time when he encountered a stop signal protecting an interlocking. He smashed into another train. Would you increase the length of the block?
I see a R38 C train pull on the Manhattan-bound platform at ENY. It leaves. The key car # I catch is #4111, so I'll know when the A I was planning to catch will catch up to and eventually pass. I was abruptly mistaken of the outcome, 1/2 asleep on a R38 A which pulled in about 6-7 minutes later.
We continue into Manhattan and along CPW. No sign of that C train. We arrive at 168 St., and I found that sneaky train that just finished discharging passengers there. That key R38 #4111 smirking at me with a pretentious look. The C closed its doors the same time we did, and left our positions exactly at the same time, the C to (turn around?) there and us speeding away to 175th.
1) If luck permits it, take the C no matter what?
2) The average speed along CPW both ways was 32 mph. I disagree with some of our SubTalkers with the slowness, but I never experienced a R10 speeding past through there so I guess...
2. That section of track from 59-125 St (the CPW express) has gotten slower over the years with all the timers placed on the express tracks.
I think people need to see express/local configurations as more of a means of distributing load than as a time saver. If every train ran local people close to Manhattan would never get a seat because all the seats would be taken by those in outlying areas. I've been finding the time savings on express trains to be neglible and not worth sacrificing a seat or standing waiting for another train.
"I think people need to see express/local configurations as more of a means of distributing load than as a time saver"
Yes, especially the V and the F, and if people used them optimally, 6th Av riders headed for destinations west of Elmhurst Av would pretty much all ride the V; most going as far as 71-Continental should be on the V, whereas those going further along Queens Blvd. would be on the F. However, an F, if running on time, should save about 8 minutes on the run to 71 Continental. If you're at 53rd and Lex, selecting the E over the V to Union Turnpike might save you 9-11 minutes, assuming the E comes first. If you're on the E already from 8th Av, no sense getting off until you need to transfer for a local station.
Step AWAY from the crack pipe. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
My website is now updated with many photos of Northeast Transportation and digital videos of LIRR, Amtrak, MBTA, and more.
Again the website is
*************************
www.nycguide.us
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Enjoy your visit.
P.S. To all webmasters of transit related sites out there and want your website in my directory please e-mail me at info@nycguide.us
The reason I stopped doing mine though is that there's too much ambient noise in the subway (as you can hear in yours). Kinda drowns out the noises you want to hear, even on an El (like at Woodside on the 7)
Look at the number plates.
Besides, how can you not tell those two classes apart by APPEARANCE?
Peter Kalikow, the chairman of the MTA and real estate mogul, confessed over the weekend that he hasn't stepped foot on the subway or bus in more than 25 years. "Look at me," he said to reporters gathered outside his Fifth Avenue townhouse. "I'm wearing a $3,000 suit and my Patek Philippe watch cost me $30,000. Do you think I would even think about taking public transportation?" Kalikow, who inherited a real estate empire, was appointed by Governor George Pataki to head up the MTA. Both men have been the subject of criticism over the fare hike and questionable accounting practices at the agency. Although a court recently ruled that the fare hike was illegal, the MTA is appealing the decision. "To put Peter Kalikow in charge of the MTA is ridiculous," said political analyst Stuart Rothenberg. "He has no idea what public transportation is like. It would be like putting Michael Jackson in charge of the city's foster care program or Vinnie Gigante in charge of the NYPD's organized crime bureau. Next thing you know the Governor is going to put the band Great White in charge of the city's fire department," he added. But Kalikow defended his custom of traveling around town in a chauffeur-driven Mercedes 600 SEL. "I had my staff construct a life-size mock-up of a subway car in my office," he said. "I don't have to actually take the subway with other human beings to know it is like," he explained.
www.newyorkish.com
But it is not so directed toward New York.
Tom
1956 :)
"[insert a bunch of junk on how Kalikow doesn't use the subway].... It would be like putting Michael Jackson in charge of the city's foster care program or Vinnie Gigante in charge of the NYPD's organized crime bureau."
See, the last part completely kills it. If they skipped the whole analogy thing, it would be funny on it's own. It's like when you have to explain a joke.
That's pretty much how newyorkish.com is.
Legal Aid has their hands too full with things like getting protective orders for battered wives, and fighting illegal evictions to want to represent a rail fan who insists on photographing a subway train. You can be sure they will check your financial eligibility very carefully before taking your case.
Tom
That is a load of bull, you can take pictures on public areas of transit property and the NY State Public Authorities Law says so.
Since when must a passenger carry ID on the subway?
Until he was eligible for an RFM, my father's only photo ID is his passport. I can assure you he didn't take it with him on the subway.
A person who commits an offense normally meriting just a summons can be taken into custody if he or she does not have identification to show to the police officer. I'm not sure how long the person can be held, probably just long enough to establish his or her identity, but clearly the lack of ID would be a major hassle in that type of situation.
The pregnant chik who got the summons the other day for sitting on station steps was a high school senior, so presumably she had a student ID with her. She's lucky that was the case, or a bad situation would have been even worse.
No.
If you commit a minor offense and have ID, the officer will generally write a summons and let you go. But if you don't have ID, you can be detained until your identity is verified.
But simply not having an ID is not grounds for arrest.
Since BigDigFan won't give specific info, we must presume he's blowing smoke.
What were their names, Bud Abbott and Lou Costello ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Who cares about legal aid - perhaps the ACLU will take this one on...
What this amounts to is that you were not issued a permit to use a tripod or other ancillary equipment. The employee was telling you that those type of permits are not being issued anymore. He was not able to provide you with any published authority which would in any way supercede the published rules which permit photography without a permit.
Tom
????
Okay bro, let's see if I got you straight here. You desire to willfully commit a certain act in public that recent events have given an air of suspicious activity to, as interpreted by various law enforcement departments and others in the public realm. You are fully aware of the responses such an act could create. So you intend to proceed with your desires. Further, you understand how doing so could mean valuable time taken out of normal law enforcement officers duties to investigate your actions. To top it off you intend to capitalize on this temporary unfortunate state of affairs with the filing of a "lawsuit".
Which is just what the city needs, right?
Damn dude, can't you just chill for a while? Why throw sand into the machinery for no real purpose? What could be the ultimate gain? And lemme tell ya', outside of our "in-the-know" crowd, don't you think such acts would not get much sympathy for the public? How many people you think go around taking pictures of trains? I think most people would think "What the hell was he DOING taking pictures of subway stations? Some kinda nut....." You'd dissapear from the public eye faster than you can say boo.
Don't mean to put down the hobby. I too love taking pictures of trains, tracks and stations. And looking at others' pictures. For now though it don't make sense to get all righteous about it.
Which is just what the city needs, right?
Yes, it is.
OK, 9/11 was horrible...we all agree on this. But I'm completely sick of the old tired -- and utterly paranoid -- "National Security" blanket being used to cover the abuse of every civil right we have. There is such a thing as common sense that is being disregarded at every stretch of the immagination, including this one.
Yes, by all means, we must protect national defense installations, nuclear installations, water & food supplies, critical/secure facilities, etc, but please. Photographing a publically-accessible subway station or train from a lawful place is NOT going to harm anybody or anything, except possibly the paranoids who see terrorists lurking behind every tree and shrubbery, and these nutbars ought to be regarded in the light of the dim bulbs they likely are.
We have a first amendment in this country that's being trampled willy-nilly -- not to mention other rights and freedoms conveyed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that are being tossed out like an old rag.
Yes, a Reality Check is in desperate need of being thrown in the faces of those who would trade freedom for security. If I had the money -- and was a US citizen, believe me I'd volunteer to be a test case. Being a foreign national in this place and time, however, the risk to me and family is far too great.
And lemme tell ya', outside of our "in-the-know" crowd, don't you think such acts would not get much sympathy for the public?
Public opinion has no place in the courts, as far as this observer is concerned. Public opinion says we should all watch Friends and drink Budweiser. We are a nation of laws, and under a constitution. Until those laws outlining our freedoms are changed (and I will leave this country if that ever happens and is upheld in court), those who violate our freedoms must be held accountable. Maybe if a couple of cops get nailed and sanctioned for abuse of power -- interfering with a lawful act -- the message will get out to the little tin-plated dictators that we still have some freedom left.
Sorry, I challenge the views of those whose paranoia trumps common sense. Same people who belive that making grandma or Mother Superior take her shoes off at the airport is going to make us safer. Same people who will call in a "suspicious white powder" report and get hazmat teams when the white powder is spilled in an apartment building lobby next to the laundry room.
How many people you think go around taking pictures of trains? I think most people would think "What the hell was he DOING taking pictures of subway stations? Some kinda nut....."
For now though it don't make sense to get all righteous about it.
So when IS it a good time to stand up for civil rights? When you're being forced to stand at the back of the (unphotographed) bus? When those who disagree with Public Opinion dissapear from the public eye faster than you can say boo?
Cheers,
Peter.
Conversely, I don't believe in the domino theory when it comes to the erosion of civil liberties in the United States of America. You state that you are not a citizen of this country. Maybe where you came from the culture allowed such erosions. Uh, not knowing from where you hail I'm not sure as to what conditions are like there. But all in all, it seems like a rude attitude to take regarding this country. Don't go wagging your finger at our situation. Deal with it if you want to live here.
This mild concern about taking photos is not going to last forever. And you can still take your photographs as long as you excercise some intelligent caution in doing so. Our cops don't need showboaters, they don't need grandstanding opportunists to complicate their jobs. But the law-abiding citizens have a rightful expectation of a decent quality of life. Dumbasses blocking stairways are not champions in the Fight Against Oppression. They're just bullies who don't give a whit about common courtesy. I see cops bustin' their chops I gotta cheer the cops.
I'm from Canada. Many of our freedoms and institutions were taken away from us slowly but surely as the Left took firm hold, but fortunately, many still remain. I left for economic and family reasons. I'm actually a very conservative person, and if I had the right to vote in this country, I likely would have voted Republican.
But all in all, it seems like a rude attitude to take regarding this country. Don't go wagging your finger at our situation.
The hell I won't. I live here, I respect the constitution and our laws and I would lay down my life to defend same if push ever came to shove. But I WON'T sit idly back and be a sycophant to the LoveItOrLeaveIt crowd either. I have the right to speak up and hopefully be heard by those who are equally sick of the erosion of our rights.
Deal with it if you want to live here.
No, deal with dissent if you wish to consider yourself an American. That's what that magnificent document guarantees. The right of free speech and expression. We are each entitled to our views, as right or wrong as they are. I will not chastise you for holding yours and I request the same courtesy in return.
I don't beat the drums along with the others in this country who have to look for Evildoers under every rock and I'm frankly sick to death of those who would raise our security level so high that everyone is "Guilty Until Proven Innocent." It's possible to have security without paranoia.
This mild concern about taking photos is not going to last forever. No hopefully not. Hopefully it will last until the first little tin-plated dictator gets his ass kicked and reminded of his place -- enforcing LAWS written by our elected officials, not enforcing his own paranoia, or that of some neighbourhood busybody.
If it ever becomes codified in law that taking photos on TA property is an illicit act, and that gets upheld in court, then I'll have to take a long hard look at whether I want to live in a milieu of such paranoia. For now, I'm still a believer in the laws of this land. I'm just deathly afraid that there are those on the Far right in this country who would allow another McCarthy to come into power. Rights are not taken away in one fell swoop. They're eroded gradually, in the name of quality of life or "Homeland Security."
You spoke to PRECISELY what motivates my own "not with the program" attitudes. And I *can* and *do* vote. Only wish I had more choices in who to vote *for* ...
And you completely ignored the other points I was making. That is, guys sitting on stairways blocking access to the platforms, or making themselves at home on milk crates or whatever in front of apartment buildings or stores. Here's a little news: These activities have been and still are illegal. They've been illegal for many many years. No loitering laws, no obstructing of public right of ways laws, no disturbing of the peace laws. So if they are getting inforced, where's the beef? Or are such activities supposed to be, uh, "understood" by law enforcement, and thus forgiven? Those are the laws of our city and state. We do have methodologies in place that allow for civil changes. If that's the will of the people it will get done. I know, amazing, ain't it? The world looks on in awe....
The Supreme Court has upheld the right of public authorities to restrict activities on their premises. So if the NY legistature decided to ban photography on MTA property, it would be banned.
That would be unfortunate, but it would in no way change the underlying rights that the Constitution of the Untied States provides to its citizens, and to a very large extent also to its non-citizen permanent residents (less so to no-resident aliens). Those rights are still both more encompassing and far harder to change than the rights provided by Canada, the UK, or France, just to pick 3 examples.
The only case that currently scares me is that of Jose Padilla. No matter how much of a slime he is, he is an American citizen, and therefore if the Supreme Court ends up allowing his indefinite detention without a trial, that would be a serious issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Exactly what liberties are being taken from us? I can still make my own decisions as to where I live, how I live, where I work, what I work, what I personally desire, how I go about getting what I personally desire, what I read, what I listen to, what I watch, how I decide to provide for my family, who I decide to go out on a date with, how I react with my fellow employees and employers, how late I sleep, how early I go to bed, where I go to dance, what street I decide to walk upon, which bus to take, which subway to take, how clean or dirty I wish to keep my apartment, what I eat, what I drink, what I smoke, etc.
Sounds pretty open to me.
You think "proletariat" is a type of cheese.
You've named your kids "Deduction one" and Deduction two"
You've tried to argue that poverty could be abolished if people were
just allowed to keep more of their minimum wage.
You've ever referred to someone as "my (insert racial or ethnic minority
here) friend"
You've ever tried to prove Jesus was a capitalist and opposed to
welfare.
You're a pro-lifer, but support the death penalty.
You think Huey Newton is a cookie.
The only union you support is the Baseball Players, because heck,
they're richer than you.
You think you might remember laughing once as a kid.
You once broke loose at a party and removed your neck tie.
You call mall rent-a-cops "jack-booted thugs."
You've ever referred to the moral fiber of something.
You've ever uttered the phrase, "Why don't we just bomb the sons of
bitches."
You've ever said, "I can't wait to get into business school."
You've ever called a secretary or waitress "Tootsie."
You answer to "The Man."
You don't think "The Simpsons" is all that funny, but you watch it
because that Flanders fellow makes a lot of sense.
You fax the FBI a list of "Commies in my Neighborhood."
You don't let your kids watch Sesame Street because you accuse Bert and
Ernie of "sexual deviance."
You use any of these terms to describe your wife: Old ball and chain,
little woman, old lady, tax credit...
You scream "Dit-dit-ditto" while making love.
You've argued that art has a "moral foundation set in Western values."
When people say "Marx," you think "Groucho."
You've ever yelled, "Hey hippie, get a haircut."
You think Birkenstock was that radical rock concert in 1969.
You argue that you need 300 handguns, in case a bear ever attacks your
home.
Vietnam makes a lot of sense to you.
You point to Hootie and the Blowfish as evidence of the end of racism in
America.
You've ever said civil liberties, schmivil schmiberties.
You've ever said "Clean air? Looks clean to me."
You spent MLK Day reading "The Bell Curve."
You've ever called education a luxury.
You look down through a glass ceiling and chuckle.
You wonder if donations to the Pentagon are tax-deductable.
You came of age in the '60s and don't remember Bob Dylan.
You own a vehicle with an "Ollie North: American Hero" sticker.
You're afraid of the "liberal media."
You ever based an argument on the phrase, "Well, tradition
dictates...."
You've ever called the National Endowment for the Arts a bunch of
pornographers.
You think all artists are gay.
You ever told a child that Oscar the Grouch "lives in a trash can
because he is lazy and doesn't want to contribute to society."
You've ever urged someone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps,
when they don't even have shoes.
You confuse Lenin with Lennon.
"Democracy means the VOICES and votes of the People count for something,
and
while GWB wishes ONLY 'with him' OR 'against our Nation' to be the rules
not
only of engagement but _also_ of opinion, our Nation is both greater and
finer than such ham-fisted 'patriotism' would lower us to."
Sorry, but I'm in your killfile for "improper thought," I'm a non-person and you won't read this ANYWAY. Liberties? YOU sir, are a POSTER CHILD for the problem.
Pregnant teens sitting on the station stairways because they're not feeling well are not "bullies" under any reasonable definition of the term.
If you're so outraged when you see someone sitting on, or otherwise blocking, subway station stairways, why not politely ask them to move? Or are you too chicken? Never mind, I think I know the answer.
I stated from the beginning of that post that I wasn't referring to the woman you mentioned. I took the act itself and pointed out how it can be also (and mainly) done by moronic boneheads. Read the post again.
"If you're so outraged when you see someone sitting on, or otherwise blocking, subway station stairways, why not politely ask them to move? Or are you too chicken? Never mind, I think I know the answer."
How'm I gonna respond to such talk? Again, you apparently didn't read the posting. Or you read a few lines and jumped to conclusions. And what's with the insulting words? Very unbecoming of you, and not good behavior on this board. FYI I have either asked or told guys to "excuse me" while I passed them on stairways plenty of times. And if they didn't I never made too much of an effort to avoid "bumping them" whilst doing so. So there. There's a response to your rude statement.
Only Federal Law can supersede State law. There is no such jurisdiction as National Security (There is a Department of Homeland Security, but only to enforce exisiting Federal Statues.) Federal Employees acting within their scope of their job descriptions can stop and ask questions regarding railfan photography but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can arrest and detain that person taking pictures, unless the Federal Agent has REASONABLE CAUSE that person taking pictures poses a serious risk to transit property and other persons using them.
All this over a Laden who's in need of a SERIOUS shave.
He prolly DID shave---which would explain why we haven't captured him or anyone
LOOKING like him.
BACK TO THE TRAINS, boiz.
Repeat after me:
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
The Bali explosion was spontaneous combustion.
The Morocco explosions were spontaneous combustion.
The Saudi explosions were spontaneous combustion.
(Not that any of these are a reason to ban photography on the subways.)
The Bali explosion was spontaneous combustion.
The Morocco explosions were spontaneous combustion.
The Saudi explosions were spontaneous combustion.
(Not that any of these are a reason to ban photography on the subways.)
Bali and Morocco were the work of indigenous Islamist groups. Both of these groups may have been inspired by al-Qaeda, but that does not mean (as the U.S. media sometimes imply) that they took direct orders from Osama bin Laden. Islamist terrorist groups in the Muslim world are nothing new, e.g. Anwar Sadat's assassination.
As far as the explosions in Shitty Arabia are concerned, well, I have this nagging suspicion that the Shitty government itself may have perpetrated them, as a way of deflecting American criticism that it had been ignoring terrorist groups in its midst.
Saudi Arabia benefited from 'Lawrence.' Balfour agreements carved up the sands. It would be decades before anyone knew the sands contained oil. No doubt that Sauds have had a 'dirty hand' in many things and have kept their 'bed sheets' clean. Best thing to ever happen to Kuwait: liberation by Iraq. Sauds feduciary contributions...ala Osama bin Laden...are not ignored. NO MORE FREE DIPLOMATIC PARKING FOR BEDSHEETS IN NYC.
I'm very very seriously sick of this, guys.
However, if you explained to the officer that the law permitted you to take picture - and then showed him your copy of the law - you'd get much further than cursing at the officer.
Think about it this way - if they ticket a woman for sitting on the stairs because she's tired (and preg), what do you think that they'll come up with for you when you curse in public?
Chip
Uh huh. SURE you would......
Unbelievable.
I know 2 people who have applied and received.
In respect to these people (and the lurking HigherUPS) that's all I'm saying on this topic, Dig?
Permit topic over.... and have you got a source?
I know 2 people who have applied and received.
In respect to these people (and the lurking HigherUPS) that's all I'm saying on this topic, Dig?
Permit topic over.... and have you got a source?
Just like it IS NOT SAFE to put out CAR NUMBERS of a reckless or superfast T/O,
it is also deemed NOT SAFE to put out the NAME OF THE OFFICIAL whom issued
photo permits in the past.
Permits HAVE been given out... that much I can say and assure.
Nothing more.
Let's move on with that source, BigDig ??
Permits for non-commercial photograhy haven't been given out for a few years. Photograhy on the subway is perfectly legal without a permit.
First thing that goes away in fascist times is the "sense of humor." :(
Moo!
--Mark
--Mark
I surely hope it isn't!
I would think people are going to thiese trips, the majority of them, for the SOLE purpose of getting photos of the equipment...
--Mark
MOD excursions are TA supervised 'adventures' which encourage interest, participation and photography. At any time when trainset
travels in areas of 'secure,' you will be told when to 'stand down.'
As to 'milk crates,' we have none. We do have blue plastic 'water bottle crates' which are not to be used for a platform...you MUST ask for a 'pit ladder.'
The arguements for photography permission are benign in level four...ORANGE ALERT. These trips obtain good public relations for TA...even if with a small and select group of subway buffs. I'll ride the first MOD and maybe the third (all Saturdays.)
Frankly, there's nothing we won't see or photograph that will compromise passenger/system safety. Sadly, it's just the way our world is right now and we just have to live and work with it. Enjoy the excursions. CI Peter
Tripods are prohibited because they obstruct pedestrian flow. Since fantrips typically take place on revenue tracks, and you're still on transit property, I'd say you're pushing your luck using a tripod.
BTW, on recent Nostalgia Train rides out of the NYTM, the confirmation letter does state the usual "photography and use of video equipment is allowed except no tripods".
--Mark
Island Park
Richmond Hill Probably hadn't seen this many different people since the 40's! (It was still an in use station at the time - 2 trains a day)
Fair notice: The 7 line, among others, will be photographed. Period.
-Robert King
-Robert King
-Robert King
--Mark
-Robert King
Chaohwa
Response (Karleen Cooke) - 05/28/2003 10:55 AM
This is in response to your recent e-mail message to MTA New York City Transit regarding information on photography within the subway system.
We truly appreciate your interest in NYC Transit. In light of recent events, New York City Transit has had to take measures to ensure the security and safety of our passengers. Therefore, employees in our Department of Subways have been instructed to be on alert for any suspicious behavior, including passengers taking extensive and detailed pictures of our facilities. As such, you are required to obtain a permission to photograph within the New York City subway system by submitting a letter of intent to Ms. Alberteen Anderson at MTA NYCT-Government and Community Relation, 130 Livingston
Street, 3rd Floor, Brooklyn, N.Y. 11201 or calling Ms. Anderson at (718) 694-5160.
We hope that this information has been helpful and thank you for taking the time to contact us.
My own reaction:
Photograph had been permitted not by NYCT or MTA kindness but by state law. If that law has not been amended or overturned by the state legislature, NYCT can't simply decide to require permits.
Can anyone confirm the current (5/28/03) status of 21 NYCRR 1050.9c? It was confirmed on 2/27/03.
But from personal experience Ms. Anderson is a considerate,
generous, and very reasonable individual to conduct business with.
Just mind your manners and be POLITE, brahs...
* You may be asked to detail WHAT PORTION of the system you wish to photograph
* You may also be asked to EXPLAIN your purpose for wanting to take photographs.
(i.e. for personal website, personal home library, etq.)
Luck Good!!
The WHOLE dam thing.
* You may also be asked to EXPLAIN your purpose for wanting to take photographs.
(i.e. for personal website, personal home library, etq.)
WHATEVER I please.
21 NYCRR 1050.9c FOREVER! BWAH HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!
Seriously, if we would all just shut up about the photography and deal with the incidents as they come up, I think we will all have a much more enjoyable life. If you get harassed, do something about, just don't whine aobut it here. ACTIONS, not WORDS.
This will be my 1st... and I want there to be a 2nd and 3rd and 10th.
Push a Push-Pop.... Save some for later!
(this is not a direct respose to 1South Ferry9, it's just a general observation, and it seemed like a good spot to vent).
Implementation on 'tradirional' transir lines signals further attemors ar lavir reduction. as well as reducing potential operator/rider altercations. In the NCS case, the change came with the new cars, in Dan Francisco POP was phased in first on a new line, then extended to all LRV services but not the F-Market Historic Route. Concurrently, MUNI began implementing OPTO on multi-car trains as Frank Sprague's invention of MU marked a century. AFAIK, only Boston continues to staff each car.
Rescue MUNI, an SF rider advicacy froup has ibtauned scant data frim MUNI regarding fare evasion/fine collections although we continue to seek the data. Recent news accounts from LA indicate some MTA board members interest in making the Red (subway line) a turnstile operation. No serious cost figures have emerged.
Plus they give seemingly unlimited change, compared to the MVMs.
How do the NJT TVMs stack up to the LIRR and MN TVMs?
I am really sick of our constitutional right to legal photography beine stepped on. On Peggy's upcoming tour, let's take pictures at both High Street and Broadway-Nassau St stations. I know we may have a controversial topic on our hands for the next few days, but please, we New Yorkers have rights too. Why should we not be allowed to take pictures because some fanatics caused the worst act of terrorism on American soil?
Remember he has enough power to give you a summons, even on some BS charge. And he can (and probably will) make it worse.
I'm not saying they're right, but watch out for yourself at the same time as exercising your rights.
Take pictures responsibly, obey all instructions by a Police Officer. If he tells you to move on, do that, but do also get his badge number and refer the matter to an attorney on possible civil rights violations if it escalates.
Again, do comply with the officer and don't go against him/her and you have a strong case against NYPD.
Let's just remember "TAKE PICTURES and TOUR WONT WAIT FOR YOU" rule.
I think we should batten down a notch or two-- and be thankful to Peggy that
WE ARE EVEN HA-----VING A TOUR to begin with.
Tho, on the other hand I would love to catch a .mov clip of TA being handed
a paper copy of rules and regulations 10.50.09
Woo. Fast Worker.
Whuh happened to tha "REDBIRD FLASHING INTERIOR LIGHTS on the 7" .mov clip, brah??
I appreciate the EAGERNESS on ya, Clay... just wondering if that 7 clip got in?
:)
Member from SubTalk: I have a copy of the code. Let me read what it says...
TA Worker: Give me that. Let me see
Member from SubTalk: Oh, certainly...
::TA worker slaps SubTalk member with document:: CODE?! WHAT CODE?! THIS IS THE COWARD'S CODE!
:D
If ye plan to film (or tape) let's do some in a MATURE (orderly) fashion.
Best said, print and carry the regulation rules and code..
Peggy has done much for our TOUR WANTING masses... let's not do her 1 bad.
(How kind of NYCT to avoid covering the outdated street name!)
Reminder, there are many TA workers who are railfans too, plus those oldtimers who aren't have seen a lot of railfans over the years who don't cause trouble. With all the supervision & recently issued documentation by the TA they are just doing their jobs, because they have to or else.
So, don't get into a argument with them, that isn't going to help one little bit !
Show them respect & apologize if they say that you are doing something wrong. Many of us have taken photos on PATH. When the Conductor says something to me I apologize & put the camera away (I usually am only interested in one or two photos, so I rairly get warned & I NEVER flash in the operators face).
Do the same for Peggy and go on your own if you want pictures there. If you get stopped, the whole group gets stopped, and that is not fair to them.
How about a Subtalk field trip for the exact purpose of airing those same problems?! I figure we get 20-30 people together and do it Japanese Tourist Style (maybe Paparazzi style if we have enough people). Just sit and snap away for nearly the whole trip, not only will certain aspects get documented very well, but it will be practically impossible to stop a bunch of people just snapping photos like crazy. Loud, old motor drives are a definite plus, as are loud SLR shutter sounds, digitals need not apply. In mezzanines and such we can flash away like crazy, flash the back of the train, just make sure not to get the front.
No, I'm not organizing something like this, I'm just an idea person, unless you want to start it at 12 or so in NY.
Maybe we should just drop this while we are ahead.
I can just see it, everyone with at least two SLR bodies, four lenses and a light meter, wearing day glow caps, and the leader (Jersey Mike perhaps) moving at a brisk pace holding the day glow flag high over his head.
>>> but it will be practically impossible to stop a bunch of people just snapping photos like crazy <<<
And when they do try to stop you, drop in place lock arms and go limp. Start a chorus of "We Shall Overcome." Refuse bail. Power to the people!! You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows!! ...
Oh, sorry, I think I am having a flashback!! I need a doobie and a Bryn Mawr student who doesn't shave her legs or armpits. :-)
Tom
It's better to have Todd there just in case.
Broadway Nassau and High Street have been deleted from the tour, and replaced by Euclid and Liberty Avenue and we will do the LIRR return.
Those wishing to see Broadway Nassau or High Street can do so on their own after the tour ends at Far Rockaway.
Peggy agrees you have a right to take photos but has to keep her job. If a person is arrested and they work for transit they are suspended
immediately pending dismissal charges, even if they are cleared of charges. These two stations even have National Guard Troops with military automatic weapons- especially Broadway Nassau.
Please comply with directions given by Peggy or stay home! Peggy is conducting the tour after she gets off work and would be recognized as working for Transit. Do you wish to be responsible for her being terminated?
My own opinion:
This "suggestion" is incredibly immature. Few of us doubt the legality of photography -- I, certainly, am as avid a subway photographer as any these days -- but when we attend a tour led by a volunteer on her own time off, contributing her time and knowledge as a service to the railfan community, the least we can do is respect the tour guide's wishes, as silly as they may seem to us.
Broadway-Nassau and High are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Pick some other time to exercise your legal right.
I and everyone else SHOULD EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS AS AMERICAN CITIZENS IN A SEMI-FREE COUNRTY TAKE THEIR PICTURES OUTSIDE OF THE TOUR TIME.
You wanna have a picture taking field trip? Run your own. Peggy stated her rules for trips she so kindly runs. You don't like it? Don't go on it. And don't spoil the fun for the others who do.
Why don't you have a field trip entitled "High Risk Photography" and take pix of power plants framed by suspension bridges with trains running on them? Then you can make your big, constitutional statement.
Sheesh.
--Mark
I took these two in front of a police officer and nothing was said to me.
However I could see someone being jumpy over a group taking them.
BTW I think you are all lucky that Peggy is still even going to give the tour.
Also I'm curious as to why Euclid was skipped over on the initial tour schedule.
My pictures of the Broadway line were shutter priority at 1/50". I haven't touched Aperature Priority as Tv works well enough.
BTW this is probably my best yet, just took it Saturday morning at 4am coming home.
I figure if you can actually read the G on top of the green its close to being good, usually the smallest amount of blur makes it unreadable.
Shutter priority 1/50", ISO 100.
---Chap' 11 Choo Choo
Its easier to run from TSSes above ground too.
We DO have our constitutional right to legal photography in public places for our OWN PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE. Let's take those risks being the powers to be at the MTA and the NYPD, but PLEASE NOT ON THIS TOUR. I never carried a camera on any of the previous tours I attended and I will not do the same on this tour. I will exercise my rights as a amateur photographer while I am on the MOD trips or on my own time.
A tip for everyone on this board. Bring a witness but don't have the witness be with you, he or she should stay about 100 feet or eye distance away to see what the police will do the the photographer. I hope nothing negative will happen to the picture-taker but I have a funny feeling that someone will make it a Federal Case on a petty thing as this.
for y'all spanish brahs.
(Take photos solely where permitted during Peggy's trip!!!)
Again, it's Peggy's tour and not my call.
I overlooked that part of the constitution when I studied it. Perhaps you can point to the photography clause for me. :-)
Tom
One thing, the subway is actually considered private property, isn't it?
Not that it really matters. State law explicitly grants permission to photograph the subway. (I've yet to see any evidence that the law has changed. Whoever in NYCT implemented the change of policy either was ignorant of or didn't care about state law.)
I know but I thought that someone had posted here before that somehow it was private. Oh well, my memory fails me yet again :)
So guys, this questioning is nothing new. This happened in 1990. I was also questioned around 1995 near the LIRR Fresh Pond yard, and I told that story a while back here. We can't blame 9/11 for everything. BEing questioned is nothing new. The problem is not that we can get questioned, it's that some here feel they need to get on a high horse if they do.
On weekends there are gap trains all over the place, like the #7 last weekend had 3 gap trains on the ready (althought they were DESPERATELY needed yet not used, and one actually prevented another train from making up time).
There are many pockets around the system where a gap train can be stored. The A for example can store gap trains at Hammels, Rock Park, Howard Beach express tracks, Lefferts Branch center track, Pitkin Yard, Euclid Ave, Utica, Lafyette, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Canal St (center track), 23, 42, 72, 135, 168, and 200 Sts. However on weekdays during rush hour these trains are all in use and if one train messes up all the others are doomed.
They do almost NOTHING to make sure the trains arrive on time. Their clocks aren't even syncrhonized, as to the dispatchers and train crews that DO actually try to stay on schedule, it is only relative to their watch or a broken clock. Perhaps the best example is the 6, which simply arrives and leaves at random, and if it leaves early, it leaves a heavy load for the next train on time to pick up. Also often the case on many lines where 2 routes are scheduled to trail each other within 2 minutes. The 7, A/D, E/F, F/V, M/R, and J/M/Z also come to mind.
An issue brought up recently about laying up a gap train on unused tracks overnight was security. One T/O expressed concern over terrorists (not very likely to happen at 241 St), whereas I pointed out kids. They could get onboard somehow and beat the crap out of the crew that arrives to take the train out. Also at issue was graffitti, which we saw with the snowbird layups this and every winter. Such trains have to be taken out of service and it defeats the whole purpose of having a gap train.
Most places are fortunate. 239 Yard we can usually get a replacement train to the station within a half hour if they call us with the need to. Being so close to the yard its almost as practical to just store everything in the yard.
Places like the Rock are just plain screwed though.
As far busses, my understanding is that they're even worse than the subway. Where the subway has holding lights and such to keep service regular, busses aren't regulated and an early bus can stay early creating a gap in service.
Any other suggestions?
That's a real problem. Think about it -- what other line from the edge of the city is local from end to center? Just the Canarsie, R from Bay Ridge and the 1/9. The 1/9 was intended to have one express and one local service; the lack of a third track on inner portions of the Canarsie was listed as one of the "greatest mistakes of the BMT." Moreover, the 1/9 and R feature cross platform changes to express trains.
At least the F is express in Queens and the express was cut to 71 Av when Hillside express service was cut in 1992 and regular Culver express service was lost in 1987. The L not having express service I'm sure haunts that line to this day since it has heavy ridership and is the only line in some of the areas it runs in like Canarsie. And it is the only north-south line east of Nostrand afterit runs N/S at Broadway Juction.
On the R, that's another drag it has to go through the tunnel and run via local on 4 Av & Queens Blvd making its existence invaluable.
Hey what about the CC/C from 1976? up to 1992 when it ran local in all FOUR boroughs from Bedford Park Blvd-Rockaway Park in the rush hours; different terminals off hours; now I'm sure that was a real drag.
Back to the drawing board !!
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
Jimmy
:-) Andrew
Phil Hom
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2176516913
Last year, I attende an ERA tour of those very ships and yards. An up close look at them is revealing that rust is starting to appear. That wasn't a nice surprise to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Expect one of two possibilities:
1. The cars rot at Branch Brook for several more years, then get scrapped.
2. Somebody gets wisdom and the cars (except for 3 or 4) go west.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2000+All/2008/$File/P2008.pdfa>
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2000+All/2008/$File/P2008.htm
Do note that the two are the same, but the lower is an html of the .pdf above, if you prefer to neither send nor receive adob's 'gifts'. However the html does not have the piechart that the .pdf has.
Oh yeah, and the whole list is at:
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/ProfileInformation?OpenForm&2000&All
Yes, that's for real. Farebox recovery is a bit over 50% on NYCTA. It's one of the highest, if not the highest, in the country.
Note that this analysis lumps subway, bus, and paratransit operations together. If you're looking at subways only*, the farebox covers an even greater proportion of operations, and there are very many trips for which riders pay more than the operating cost.
* Free subway-bus transfers make this more difficult to nail down precisely.
Mark
Agreed. In 2000, the average operating cost per unlinked passenger trip on the subway ride was $1.25, according to FTA data. That was lower than any heavy rail system in the country,
NYCT operating costs per trip is probably way up as a result of soaring pension and health care costs, and modestly increasing wages. Still, it may be as little as $1.50, and if the TA was truthful about the $1.07 average fare, and with an average fare increase of 25 percent, revenue per trip may be $1.34 after the fare increase. That would be 89 percent of operating costs.
Before patting anyone on the back for how well NY is doing, remember most of the costs of running a heavy rail system are relatively inelastic, so the system with the most trips has the lowest cost per trip. Other comparisons which might have different results include cost per trainset mile traveled or operating costs per hour per system mile.
Tom
According to FTA data, NYCT was also lowest in the nation among heavy rail operators in operating cost per vehicle revenue hour and operating cost per passenger mile. The 25 cents per passenger mile was matched by a couple of commuter rail operators *
According to FTA data, NYCT was also lowest in the nation among heavy rail operators in operating cost per vehicle revenue hour and operating cost per passenger mile. The 25 cents per passenger mile was matched by a couple of commuter rail operators (Mass Bay, NE Illinois) -- LIRR was 27 cents, MetroNorth was 29.
NYC bennifits from it's high utilization rates. The utilization rates is no excuse not to further reduce costs by implimenting effeciency measures used by other tranist operators
one man crews using in cab cctv, fewer fare seller, shorter more frequent trains overnight plus a complete top to bottom review of it's operating proceedures, precurement methods etc.
There are a few billion in savings per year to be had without afffecting riders
I don't think so. The annual operating cost is only $3.4 billion.
2003 projected operating expenses not including capitol expense + $4.3 billion dollars
2004 " " 4.710 billion dollars
this does not include MTA headquaretes, SI rail, or any other MTA operation
Eliminating most s/a alone would save nearly a half billion dollars a year. Reducing two man crews to one where feasable would save more nearly a half billion dollars.
The cost of upgrading all r46 and newer cars for in cab cctv, installing cctv on platforms to cover both platform edges, installing CCTV cams on stairwells and fare controls, network infrastructure to transmitt the digital video feeds, and transmit them wirelessly to MTA security and police would cost in the area of a one time cost of $500 million and a yearly operational costs of $100 million. A huge savings from the current practive.
The MTA operates in the stone ages in terms in the way it administrates and manages it's operations. It leaves so many potential revenue stream on the table it is sickning to think about it.
The $100 million yearly operating cost includes extra platform security agents at ultra high volume stations such as grand central on the lex during rush hour, Conversion of S/A title to security cusotmer assistance position which has the ability to issue fare evasion and other quality of life offenses and would receive peace officer training. Central security monitoring personel who assist security customer assistance personel and police to ensure safety and monitor platforms, fare controls and tunnels via cctv for suspicious activity.
To summerize
$500 million per year in savings by removing Tooken booths from stations and beefing up off site metrocard sales and subscription metrocard sales.
$500 million per year in savings from reducing most crews from two to one man using in-cab cctv and utilizing half train OPTO on most lines after 9PM and on some lines all weekend/
One time $500 million outlay to upgrade wireless communications, install cctv cameras systemwide. The fiber optic's communication cable has already been layed systemwide with $50 million already budgeted to installing it ovet the rest of the system including building computer communications rooms.
The MTA operating expenses due increasing fuel costs and labor cost are going up big time every year. Effeciency measures need to be taken to keep costs done. noting I proposed is not already used at other TA nationwide.
The above savings does not even adress the adminstative, precurement and project management areas where thier are allso significant savings to be had with much less effort that the ideas described above. Little things such as having buses used in bus shuttle services such as the Q and F beach buses being assigned from the nearest depot no matter which depot the driver works at. Improving bus management and maintance. Signing precurement contracts with construction suppliers instead of having each contractor buy supplies in small qauntities at higher prices. Co-locating similar bus models at one depot to reduce parts inventory expenses..
i can go one for hours. the point is that thier is over a $1 billion dollars in savings to be had in the MTA budget and tens of million in untapped non-transit revenue streams that the MTA could tap into.
What kind of fully loaded expense are you assuming for S/As, C/Rs, and T/Os?
If salary = $50,000, I would guess full loading, including benefits, pension, and supervision, is $75,000.
So that would mean reducing S/As and train crews by 6700 each. I didn't know there were that many S/As at non-busy stations, or that there were 13,300 train crew employees.
As Mr. Bauman pointed out, that is not several billion dollars.
Tom
Also factor in that costs are going up quickly with a projected 10% increse in operating expenses at nyct in the next year.
And your point is????
In your post #502629 you said "There are a few billion in savings per year to be had without afffecting riders", to which Mr. Bauman replied in post #502639 "I don't think so. The annual operating cost is only $3.4 billion." Webster's defines "few" as not many, it certainly implies two or more, for greater than a 50% savings which is pretty unrealistic.
Tom
And there is indead a few billion in savings to be had across all MTA operations.
The areas I described in previuos posts are just the tip of the iceberg.
Plus dozens of other areas that savings could be had before effecting riders.
Addtional revenues derived from increased ridership due to more frequent half train service is concidered a savings because it reduces the operating budget.
Addtional revenue from increased advertising. It was reporeted in advetising age last week that the MTA could expect at least $50 million dollars or more by installing in tunnel advertisment similar to the one currently on PATH.
In station information screens could carry tv style advetisments if they choose to use a flat fannel design vs the current lcd design.
In station retail and better use of MTA real estate systemwide
Tens of Millions of dollars on the bus operations side.
A detailed top to bottom survey of thier operations and the deployment of business management software and precurement would expose tons of savings. I am in the process of attempting to use a business contact to work on such issue at the MTA.
The business process improvements are not designed just to save money, but to improve cusotmer experience. Some will cost more then they will save.
Currently thier is no or very poor platform signage to indicate where 4 car train will be stoping. This caused headaches to the one man crew who had to wait for people running from other parts of the platform to get to the train stoping zone(I did not observe this myself)
Better platform markings such as changing the color of the warning stripe and platform edge to green in zones where 4 car train will stop to indicate that the train always stops here. Consitantly using this methodology and educating the public will solve much of the problem
It seems that the union wants the OPTO to fail instead of making adjustments such as better platform markings, bringing the monitors in cab, having conductors on connecting lines to inform riders in advance that they need to be on cars x-y to make a cross platform transfer to the G etc.
As for CCTV cameras not working as well in stations like NYCT. That is hogwash. Yes more camera need to installed to cover the entire platform. I envision and in cab smart system where the T/O will view the multiple ahots on two flat pannels(already installed on r-143). The images will apear on split screens for which the T/O will have the ability to touch a particular camera angle and bring it full screen if he needs a closer look. the system will also visually correlate which camera angle corrisponds with which door bank highlighting door banks with obstructions making easier for the T/O to do his job.
Of course such as system should be rolled out slowly, tested, feedback taken from T/O on how to make improvements prior to deploying it systemwide. Operator feedback is very important.
Concidering the lack of positive feedback concerning tooken booth closing the MTA got from it's employees, it may be diffucult to get preductive feedback especially if the TA needs to go through hand picked employee's by the union.
The Department of education aproach of using small focus groups of teachers and priciples in forming it's plans should be used as a model. The teachers union leadership is not happy that the chancelor choose to talk directly to teachers and not to the union. The teachers union president was wuoted in the times stated that the teachers are the union therefore the union reps should be at all meetings. This would just have put pressure on the teachers involved and ussually does not lead to prodcutive discource as the union needs are put ahead of the individual opinion
The union leadership has a vested interest in keeping the unions rolls filled. Any attempt to shrink the union rolls no matter how much better it is for thier memebers often rules the day. Proper implimentation of one man crews systemwide bennifts the T/O in thier pocketbook and if carefull attention is paid to it;s implimentation, such an implimentation will be painless as well
The G OPTO implimetation is a good example of a poor implimentation. the fact that they had to go back to two man crews on saturday is proof. I rode the G and L for almost 7 hours total on saturday. it was not that busy. Poor siignage was the biggest problem I saw. In cab monitors would reduce dwell time. Unfortunitly since it was Sat they hasd two man crews operating the 4 car trains.
You are right there is no magic bullets, but that does not mean you should not try to make improvements. One man full length crews on most lines is possible and should be implimented. Proper testing and training need to be done. But concidering that the MTA is in the process of ordering new rail cars, provsions need to be made.
On platform monitors is the wrong way to go. Besides not being very clear, reqquiring the T/O to release the breaks, they are also expensive to opearted. Electricty costs plus cooling fans cut into the savings. Plus it makes it implossible to use the smart functionality I decribed above
My guess is that you're right that focus groups are the way to go with feedback. I'm kind of out of my depth on where the unions should or shouldn't be on this.
Union leadership is gung ho about preserving the union head count. it is through the head count that they derive thier funding for thier political activities. It is a shame that most unions have lost touch with their original purpose
Your idea that union leaders want to keep union employment high to fund political activities is ridiculous. Union leaders want to keep employment high because that is what they and the members who elect them see as best for the union members. They may be mistaken at times, and a leader, just like any politician requiring votes to keep his job may pander to the lowest common denominator, or take bribes from management, but the welfare of their members was their original purpose and remains their current purpose. A labor union is not a service organization formed with the altruistic vision of improving society in general. It is a an organization of interested people banded together to get as much as they can for themselves.
Tom
NYCTransit doesn't do feedback from the hourlies. They just tell us how it will be and then proceed to write us up when we don't toe the line. There is no particular reason we should voice our opinions and ideas - the opinions get ignored and the ideas are mangled beyond belief.
No joke ... Alex speaks the truth, and I left State Service as a Grade 23 ...
Curse of the public sector. The only new ideas that show up is ones that were already discredited in the private sector.
Look at contracting out. In the 1970s and 1980s, when the baby boomers were flooding into the labor market, there were big gains to be had by contracting out, and reasonable assurance that you could get work done as needed. Unions blocked the change in the government. Until the 1990s, when the labor slackage disappeared and private companies brought work in house -- as the government moved to contracting out and got raped.
When you take ten years to do something, it is guaranteed to be wrong.
That has nothing to do with it. The reason NYCT farebox recovery is greater in NYC then other TA is that it's population is more dependent on mass transit and the availablity of frequent service allows large populations to utilize mass transit.
NYS porvides more subsidies in total then most other states. These subsidies include the outragiously high tolls and MTA surcharges on everything from your telephone bill to part of the sales tax you pay on every taxable item you buy. NYS residents pay tons of taxes to support mass transit
Most of the other TA you mention ridership numbers and capasity utilization is far less then NYCT. This is the reason why their farebox recovery is so much lower. There is a certain fixed costs(depots, buses, Mechanics, infrastructure, etc..) that are incured no matter how many buses or train you run. IF the utilization is lower, farebox recovery is lower.
If NYCT was managed better, farebox recovery of "operating costs" could be close to 85-90% easily. Once again it has to do with ridership numbers and providing the right size serve to match those numbers.
4-car opto service overnight, One man crews via in car CCTV, better operational planning and management etc could significantly lower costs. It is the little things like proper parts inventory management that add up that drive up costs and lower the potential for better fare ox recovery at nyct.
Another example of wasteful spending due to poor proceedures is the fact that the beach shuttle bus service on the Q and F is covered by drivers and buses from all depots in brooklyn. Instead of providing all the buses from the closest depot on the weekend thus saving fuel costs and deadhead overtime pay for drivers. Drivers drive buses from halfway across brooklyn to provide bus service that is about a mile or less from UP the nearest depot.
Not to mention the service should have been significantly scaled back to 2 bus from 8 due to the terrible weather. Yes even with the heavy rain and cold temperatures NYCT had 4 bus or more per shuttle idling with no passengers at sheapshead bay Q station all weekend. Not many people heading to the beach with 55 degree temperature and heavy rain
Ask people to work OT on a 3 day weekend and then send them home becasue of bad weather. Now if it cleared would you call them at home and bring them back?
The legistical aspects of running the service are not that challenging. As for cold weather plans. On the rare occasions when such a plan is in effect, and thier is not enough storage if there is a need to run extra cars just for the reason that there is no place to put them, then you need to run more cars. There is no problem that can not be solved with proper planning
"Ask people to work OT on a 3 day weekend and then send them home becasue of bad weather. Now if it cleared would you call them at home and bring them back?"
Maybe you have not heard that metorologists have a nack of prediciting the weather. The dispatcher in charge should be responcible for checking the weather and scaling back service as needed. It was pretty safe bet when the weather forcasters were predicting 55 degrees and heavy rain to call the drivers up the nught before and tell them they are not needed. If you work for any NORMAL organization they send you home when you are not needed. IF they don't tell you not to come in, you get 4 hours for your trouble of showing up.
To make matters worse the drivers sat in terminal with their engines running and the Traffic checkers were called in.
Most other locals are mostly bus service which has lower fare box recovery and run half empty buses and have high fixed costs such as depots and maintance.
At the ridership leaves NYCT has far box recovery should be closer to 85-90 percent.
Concidering the poor cost controls and outdated operating proceedures at NYCT, The taxpayer burden could be reduced and service enhanced
Who needs 8 car trains at 3am in the morning. Advocacy groups use the fare box recovery statistics as a negative when it should be held up for the world to see as a huge positive
The MTA pulle doff a magiv trick. Lowering the effective fare to less then $1.10 while increasing fare box recovery
Yup the percentage is just about correct and that's a BAD thing since they have to rely heavily on revenue on a daily basis. And imagine we in New York have to pay so much but receive little or nothing in return and most times with the state we get shortchanged by about 20% in costs.
The people who get shortchanges are bridge and tunnel customers who pay nearly twice the cost of operating and maintaing the facilities
That is why I often go off on a tangent away from pure railfan conversations.
The way out govenment is run and the taxes are paying has gotten way out of hand. In the past it was hard to track exacly what goes on and where the money is being wasted. i worked fro a few years investigating such issue. It is through this experience that I saw just how much waste and stealng by employees goes on due to easily fixed opearting rpoceedures. Technology deployement is so attractive becaues it provideds a easy to follow trail to offenders and allow the elinination of many easily to stop schemes that happen over and over again.
Technology deployement is so attractive becaues it provideds a easy to follow trail to offenders and allow the elinination of many easily to stop schemes that happen over and over again..
Sometimes the proof is there YET the offenders get off lightly i.e. avoiding jail time that they should serve and keeping private possessions like their houses, cars and such so they avoid reposeessions. Remember, money is a VERY POWERFUL TOOL.
The offenders do generally get off lightly. The reasons are three fold
1)If the incedent is found as part of a large investigation, ussually the investigative body wants the big fish and cuts deals that sometimes result in little or no jail time for most offenders. It is very hard to prove certain types of fraud especially in contracting and often it is required to flip lower people to testimony against the big fish.
2)building on pont one, often only the tip of the iceberg can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
3)The laws for many finaccial fraud and corruption simply have no teeth. Plus most elected officials in NYS still collect thier pension even if they are convicted. Plus juries are sypathetic to the criminal which is always portrayed as the loving mother and father whose chuldren will starve if the judge hands doen a stiff sentance. I could not believe it when I went to my first sentecing for one of my cases. they guy had to pay back the money stollen over 10 years without interest and served 1 year in prison, one week in one week out plus weekends to take care of his daughter who was going through her difficult teenage years and to ensure that he his contracting business stays in busines fine plus provide for his family.
You can not make this stuff up!!!.
Prevention is the key.
IT technology based systems is the answer to solving many of the repetitve frauds such as stealing various checks and taking them to the check cacher, clerks taking bribes to credit non-existant checks, no show jobs, fraudualnt receipts for items purchances etc. This is alot more common then you would thinks and happens over and over agian at the same offices.
One such system that has proven somewhat effective is the VENDEX system which is a list of all contractors and individuls prohibiting from working on city projects. It has two limitiations, projects under $250k are excluded for mandatory checks and the fact that many times prohbited compnaies are hired on as subcontracktors. Plus the MTA and the city often do not share information allowing contractors banned one place get jobs at the other.
Setting up a VENDEX system CAN, however, be hard for some jurisdictions, and implementing even harder, because it amounts to a blacklist, which there are ways to challenge. You have to WORK to get an engineer to put himself on the line and claim you did a bad enough job to get blacklisted. That's BAAAAD construction work.
As for the jurisdictional issues. The state should take jurisdiction over the entire system and share it with other state and city ageency's/
Vendex is not perfect. it has many many flaws.
"Sharing information and checking smaller jobs is just an accounting problem. One state requires that contractors submit subcontractor lists, so that they don't job-shop just before the bid and try to strong-arm the discounts. This is a way to review subcontractor lists. "
Unfortunitly they still do. that is one area that is hard to track under the current system. Many times sub contractors who are not previously aproved show up and do work. Money on job orders paid to the contrators is sometimes not the actual value with a kickback the comes in the for of free work on another project or a money order in return etc. The MTA needs a comprehensive list of who is working at what location at what day and have a system to verify that the people who are suposed to be there are actually the people doing the work. I have spend a few days snooping around job sites(not MTA jobs but school construction authority jobs) and attempted to verify who is actually working.
Contractor and subcontractor lists can all be incorporated into a new construction and accounting application. In fact a Applications package such as Oracle Finacials 11i could manage the entire MTA operations including tracking and monitoring construction jobs. Such as system could tie into a job site time clock on location to allow tracking of employees on the job site.
The comprehensivs system I have to stop construction fraud and other fraud and to improve the MTA accounting systems etc is far too much to get into in a subtalk post.
Certain parts of the information such as contractors who have performed criminal acts at one state or city agency could be share with other by linking into a centralized data pools. If the MTA and other state and city agencies legally allowed reasoning to disallow a contractor or subcontract work to go to an idividul the "blacklist" is legal
As far as I know thier is no legal obaticale in the way. Generally from my experiece information is ussually provided upon request between city and state agencies
Sure, for those who rode on the first train, ... and bring their grandfathers with them to attest to the fact. :-)
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
par of the plan calls for the longs stalled Brooklyn Sportsplex to be built next to keyspan park and other measures to transform parking lots for buses into ammusements and other attractions
Can't wait to see the plans
I hope that Coney Island remains as affordable as it is now, though.
Also in Coney Island, there is a community development organization called Astella Development that issued their own Vision Plan for Coney Island.
Vision Plan for Coney Island
If you're interested in Coney Island, there are some Coney Island internet message boards:
This is the Coney Island USA museum site. Click on Message Board
This is one of the Yahoo groups that I post on
This is another Yahoo group which has a Brooklyn "attitude"
Bill "Newkirk"
The current zoning precludes virtually all redevelopment, and serves to land bank the area until money is available for more low income housing. When I was at City Planning, I suggested upzoning Coney Island, but I was told it wasn't worth the effort. Just the suggestion of redevelopment brings out people who want Coney Island "preserved."
But look at the transportation it has. In particular, the low rise semi-industrial area adjacent to Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island Creek should be redeveloped. Let those folks sell their property for real money, and get some jobs.
I'm not one of those who says that nothing should ever be removed or altered.
What Coney needs is a return to its era as an affordable place people can go on the weekend, with just a bit of an 'edge' ( I don't mean crime, I mean the carny atmosphere, the freakshows, the mermaid parade). It certainly doesn't neeed more Trump Villages. Even what we have now can be worked with; I'm sure the old Shore Theater building can be retrofitted into something like a hotel if Coney continues to come back.
I wish Charles Denson knew abt this board, I'm sure he'd have something to say.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Coney Island a few blocks off surf ave could be a good location for housing, bur I agree the surf ave corridor needs entertainment like attractions that are free to be as inovative as the orginal attractions. This does not mean try to attempt to recreate the original attractions and nothing else, that would not make sense as people's tastes have changed
It is a crying shame that political forces converged to create housing projects on beachfront property west of the amusements areas, that land could have been put to good use not to mention since it is so far to manhattan and most jobs, the residents of the housing projects have a hard time finding jobd.
Further east on the broadwalk, brighton beach real estate prices are booming, the broadwalk is alive with cafe's and resturants and a population looking for nearby recreational activities. Coney Island is a diamond in the rough and it is refreshing to have a mayor in office who is looking to adress the real reason why many areas of NYC remain an eyesour. ZONING rules that just do not make sense. This notion that manufacturing jobs are coming back in century old outmodeled factories that sit on top of brownfeild sites is ludicris. The local politicains frame themselves as the champion of the factory workers who do not understand that factories are not coming back to NYC with it's top 5 taxes in the country and Union leadership that is not reasonable and willing to work with manufactures
Disney would never allow bare breasted women in mermaid parades. They don't even allow mustaches on Disneyland employees, Well, maybe on some of the women.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The "decoration" people are winning hands down!
www.forgotten-ny.com
There are also some side opinions that maybe a cafe or some other Yuppieish use should be built in the base with some kind of "artistic" embellishment above. If that would be its fate, I'd rather leave it bare in the hope it will be reopened in the future.
Boroough President Markowitz is a bafoon who speaks more lie's and half truths than truths. Anything he says can not be treated as reality.
The reality of reoping the parachute jump is that it may not be possible to bring it up to modern safety codes.
Markowitz whole platform is that he is "as brooklyn as it gets". He supports any idea that supports his slogan no matter how impractical the idea is.
At Brooklyn Tech's homecoming, he made as speech that stated the muslims and jews have a mosque and temple on the same block and they pass each other as both services are letting out at the same time on fridays. the only problem is that muslims pray at noon and jews after sundown. He was booed off stage.
I don't believe the WSJ article addressed that issue; rather it was that the Coney modernizers simply want the Jump to a landmark--a keynote, if you will. Actually operating it is of no importance to them.
BTW, anyone who wants to get a little bit of a vicarious feel for what it was like to be on the Parachute Jump should watch "The Little Fugitive." It can't quite recreate that jouncing around at the bottom, though.
I would love to expeience the parachute jump. My mother has many stories of summers at CI.
It is a shame that CI is a shell of itself. Some people have a vision of the way it was at a point in time in thier childhood and can not accept that if it CI amusement industry was to be reborn that it would not look exactly the way it did..
Every time I go to seaside heights on the jersey shore, it reminds me of what my mother told me CI was. Just on a smaller scales.
Coney Island if Mosses did not ruin it with such developemtnts such as Lunar Park mitchel Lama(ruin from an old CI prespective) may have reincarnated itself as a resort destination
I still don't understand the who casino is BAD argument since any city resisdent can go to AC or foxwoods or thier local card hall, booky or cock fight. CI may have recreated itself as amusements and casino's. Imagine how nice it would be especially if part of the deal was to preserve the old amusement areas. Now with all the housing that is out.
--Mark
Building the greatest concentration of public housing in the United States in Coney Island didn't help. Nor is the fact that Coney Island was not an overnight destination, and its daytrip constituency left for the suburbs and Jones Beach.
Then, too, the drastic decline of the city as a whole in the 1970s discouraged investment at Coney Island. By the time that decline ended, the City had restrictive zoning in place to "preserve" Coney Island. Without it there would have been many big box stores and movie theaters built in the 1980s and 1990s -- the resulting revival would have attracted other things like restaurants and entertainment.
But many shore towns went into decline. Look at Atlantic City, Asbury Park, etc. etc. Wildwood is the exception. It is newer. It was built in its entirety in the 1950s and 1960s, and is as much a "historic" district as Cape May. Though these were not substantial buildings, they were well preserved. Credit the owners, and the loyal customers, who kept the place up. I can see Wildwood coming back with its retro-chic, and these owners will reap a well deserved reward.
<mandatory transit content>
Wildwood did have mass transit at one time... and we have it preserved at Branford; it is one of the featured cars on our carbarn tour. Open car #34 was built by Jackson and Sharpe in 1899 for the Lynchburg Electric Railway, Lynchburg, Virginia; it later served the Five Mile Beach Electric Railway in Wildwood (also as #34) before becoming Branford's FIRST acquisition in 1945. It has been restored to its original Lynchburg appearance.
</mandatory transit content>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The guy doing the station announcements sounds like the "watch the closing doors, please" guy. I read someplace he is a naturalized Brit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Besides the human interest aspects, is the Al O'Leary quoted in the story, the PBA spokesperson, the same guy who was the NYC Transit spokesperson until recently?
Peace,
ANDEE
Then again, I smoke so I already know the score down yonder. I think I'll pass on any trips to the city until there's some SERIOUS regime change. Considering that the democraps have *NO* balls, sounds like that won't be anytime soon. You folks trapped down there in "Escape from New York" land really need to get some pitchforks and torches. As for me, I'll stay out of town. :(
www.forgotten-ny.com
Tom
They tried this tactic to raise revenue for the city in the Seventies, and it didsn't work THEN, either...:(
First, what lines still have a good number of trains with railfan windows?
Second, is there anything going on subway wise that I should see (Stilwell rebuild, L line realignment (where exactly)...)
What lines run over bridges and when?
Lastly, I'm flying into Newark. What's the best all train path from there to GCT with the least amount of walking (luggage, you know).
Thanks in advance guys.
A,C,E,F,J,L,M,N,Q diamond,R,3,7, all of these lines have trains with railfan windows. Also on weekends the W.
Second, is there anything going on subway wise that I should see (Stilwell rebuild, L line realignment (where exactly)...)
Well the things you mentioned but the L realignment [between Atlantic Av & Sutter Av stations] is almost done.
What lines run over bridges and when?
Williamsburg-->J[all times], M[weekdays], Z[rush hours]
Manhattan-->Q[all times weekdays], Q diamond[weekdays], W[weekdays]. Currently the Manhattan Bridge is closed to train traffic on weekends all times until November 2003 so the Q and W run via tunnel.
Sorry I really can't answer your last question.
As for bridges, you forgot the 1/9 over the Broadway Bridge (at all times).
Airtrain to NJT station. NJT to Penn. Some walking to 2/3. 2/3 to Times Square. Some walking to shuttle. Shuttle. Some walking to GCT.
Not good but the best all-train solution.
Olympia bus to GCT will be slightly less walking (they actually go to 41st east of Park, so there is still a walk), more traffic variability, and of course not a train.
Not good but the best all-train solution."
Of course, if money is no object one could have an all train solution with almost no walking --
Airtrain to Amtrak/NJT Station. Amtrak to New Rochelle or Stamford. Metro North to GCT (or 125 or some other destination). I believe this is a 100% ADA compliant, all train routing.
CG
That's the worst of both worlds. Still have the longer walk to the bus at EWR, the uncertain traffic between EWR and Newark Penn, and then still have the long walk inside NY Penn station.
I'm staying at the Grand Hyatt at GCT.
If I run into you again this trip I'll freak.
Excellent chance: C, E, J, M (weekdays only), Q diamond, R, Z (rush hours only)
50-50 chance: 7, A, N
Slim chance: 3, F, L, M (weekends), Q circle (weekends), W (weekends)
No chance: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, B, D, G, S
Second, is there anything going on subway wise that I should see (Stilwell rebuild, L line realignment (where exactly)...)
- Stillwell rebuild ... try viewing it from the Wonder Wheel at Coney Island's Astroland parl - you can see the entire complex and the lines feeding it
- L realignment between Atlantic Ave and Sutter Ave stations
- PATH WTC rebuilding
- Recommend you check service advisories at http://www.mta.info before you leave
What lines run over bridges and when?
- North & South Channel Bridges over Jamaica Bay: A, S (Rockaway Park shuttle), all times
- Viaduct over Bronx River: 6 (between Whitlock & Elder Aves), all times
- Sunnyside Yard overpass: 7 (all times)
- Manhattan Bridge: Q, W (all times), N (sometimes weekends)
- Williamsburgh Bridge: J (all times), M (weekdays), Z (rush hours only)
- Broadway Bridge (between 215th St & 225th St) - 1 (all times), 9 (rush hours only)
- Metro North over the Harlem River
--Mark
What about the F/G over the Gowanus Canal?
--Mark
The W and N weekend routings are as permanent as can be within the framework of the post-7/22/01 trackage.
What's better walking wise? 34th (on ACE) to 42nd (on shuttle) to GCT or 34th (on E) to Lex Ave (on 6) to GCT? Thanks again.
The A/C/E stops at 8th Avenue, with the south end of the NB platform around 42nd. From there you'll have to walk one short block south to 41st, one very long block east, up a complicated network of ramps (or down one flight and up a long escalator, if it's running), back up to 42nd, and east a bit more to reach the shuttle.
If you stay on the E to Lex, you'll be no better off. It's a very long escalator ride up to the mezzanine, two short blocks south, and a down-across-up through an underpass.
Don't take the A/C/E at all. Take the 1/2/3/9. (You'll have to pick 1/9 or 2/3 in advance, since they're on different platforms. It makes no difference which you take, but the 2/3 run more frequently most of the day.) While you wait for the train, walk towards the far north end of the platform (by the 34th Street exit). Get off at 42nd and you'll be very close to the shuttle.
Or, if you prefer not to transfer, find the 7th Avenue street exit from Penn Station. Cross 7th and start walking east along 32nd. About a quarter of a block down, you'll see a bus stop. Get on an M4 or Q32, which will take you east to Madison and then up Madison. Get off at 42nd and you'll be a short block from GCT.
Even better. Local bus plus PATH gives you Newark Airport to NYC 33rd St for $2.60 total.
Frank Hicks
The cctv camera records the picture and the automatd trunstlyes transmitts the word paid in green and not paid in red if the person did not pay which is supperimposed over the picture.
This would provide undisputable proof that a person paid or did not pay his fare, it would also provide prood id two people squeezed through a HEET.
The turnstyles as other parts of the fare control would be monitored from a central location and notify police on patrol as to who did not pay. An automated system could also alert police and transmitt the image to a PDA to assist police in picking up the correct person and issuing thema summons. The Picture is undisputable proof and will likely end 95% of fae beating plus allow automated entrances without HEET's.
Currently S/A do nothing to deter fare beeting and don't consitantly report it. Unless thier is a cop in the station it is a mute point for the S/A to do anything because thier efforts would likely not preduce results. A S/A allowed a man with a bike to enter at 14th stree Union Square after he swiped his metrocard. His 4 freinds folloed him through. The S/A did nothing, what realy could she do?
This would provide undisputable proof that a person paid or did not pay his fare, it would also provide prood id two people squeezed through a HEET. <<<
Another worshiper at the alter of technology. Here in So. California, it just made the news when thousands of tickets were canceled and convictions reversed because of an incorrectly calibrated Red Light Camera. No system provides "undisputable proof" of anything. Many provide reliable evidence.
Tom
I can't believe that there are so many people in Boston who try to beat a $1 fare. That is just plain sad and shameful.
But the receipt is the basis of any POP system. It is clear that the T is looking toward San Francisco and their conversion to a modified POP system as an example of the future for Boston.
The system will not be littered with receipts since the passengers are required to keep them until they leave the system. They are no harder to keep track of than an LIRR ticket.
Tom
the system I described earlier in the thread using cctv cameras and turnstyles working together to monitor fare beaters and trasnmitting images of fare beaters to police of fare checkers would be fare more effective and cost less in the long term. In addtion the system would double as added security for the system catching other criminals.
A back end server would tranasmitt images of fare beaters(as riders pass through the turnstlyes, a green paid sysmbol gets supperimposed over the fare beaters picture) wireless to fare checkers or police who could immediatly issue a fine.
The T should use some vision. Installing a modern AFC and implimenting out dated processes is missin out on an opurtunity to move foward
The color PDA's the police carry are less then $300 a piece and the prices are faling quickly, they would also replace ticket summons books, be able to verify identification produced by the fare beeter or criminal etc.
All technology costs money. What goes into the new system will be very much controlled by the capital budget available (a political decision). The same reason my new computer system has a CRT to look at instead of the superior flat screen display (for just a few dollars more).
Tom
Free is defintly better. The only reason I upgraded is that I am on the computer doing work all day and the CRT makes my eyes bleed.
Prior to upgrading I had my old CRT since 1992. Surviving 2 computers
The labor cost and the costs of installing receipts printers, cleaners to pick upo the receipts outside stations far outweighs the cost of installing the technoogy.
Of course the politicians who lack any vision or understanding of technology can not see this. Many people don'y realize just how low the cost of hardware has gone in the past 5 years, In the late 1990;s the comuter industry was abuzz with the sub $1000 pc. Now you can get a nicely equipted sell fro less then $500. I have seen a fairly powerful dell package(without monitor) for as low as $230 after rebate. Check out www.slickdeal.net or www.dealspree.com for a rundown of current special offers.
15 inch flat pannels can be had for about $200 these days. If you use the monitor alot it pays off in saved electricity and damage to your eyes.
since I am on the computer most of the day, the few extra dollars was worth it. After getting layed off from work a few years back and having to rely on my CRT monitor at home, my eyes would kill me in a matter of an hour. With the flat panel, I can be online all day.
Huh? How? Who? Huh?
Or am I overlooking something really obvious?
The answer is simple: change of attitude. You evade a fare, you get busted for trespassing and a computer check run on you to see if you have any outstanding warrants.
Do that enough times, and people will get the message. I understand the reluctance to clog the court system, but there's a limit to everything.
Exactly.
Also, part of the reduction in violent NYC crime is definitely due to the low tolerance for petty disorders that started toward the end of the Dinkins administration. Nasty people are much less likely to carry guns if they are likely to be arrested and then searched for fare beating or urinating in the street.
I don't see why Boston hasn't recognized this.
Also take into account the old notion that if you give an inch a person takes a yard.
If you allow minor offenses to go unpunished, it just increased the confidence of a criminal mind to try incresing daring criminal acts.
Unfortunitly NYC still does not comsistantly enforce minor issue enough. I see so many people hooking U-Turns on major roadways.
Boston has recognized this. In contrast to the T police, Boston police have been successful in cracking down on quality of life issues.
Just a few short years ago, I recall a Boston Globe reporter interviewing a gang member who sold drugs on street corners. This kid consciously stopped carrying a weapon on him after he was stopped and frisked on his way home no fewer than five times, by:
1)a Youth Violence Task Force officer
2)The sector car assigned to his neighborhood
3)A narcotics detective watching known trouble spots
4)Beat cop
5) (Don't remember)
All those who morned the life of diallo and thier protests have led more criminals not fearing to carry guns. How many inocent citizens have to die Instead of working with police to improve proceedure;s. People jump on the police as he enemy.
It's a shame
The diffence between someone carring a gun and someone not carring a gun is the differnce from getting shot if you get into an arguement or punched
A big difference
If you are going to start arguments you should sport the firepower and body armour necessary to win.
How many inocent citizens have to die at the hands of police officers pumped up on their own sence of power.
People jump on the police as he enemy.
They are the enemy. Their enforcement is completely arbitrary biased towards the laws that are easy and/or convienent to enforce and against those who are easy and/or convienent to target instead of those violations that cause the greatest harm towards society.
I am taling minor situation where the gun with the gun(concealed of course) may bump into you and it is natural to react. BANG BANG an inocent person is shot.
"They are the enemy. Their enforcement is completely arbitrary biased towards the laws that are easy and/or convienent to enforce and against those who are easy and/or convienent to target instead of those violations that cause the greatest harm towards society"
That is not a fair statement at all. I agree thier should be standards of certain offenses should be written every time spoted. Unfortunitly the way the departmetn is structured, individual officers are punished by veterean officers for doing too much which often leads to inaction on certain issues. It's a shame.
The weekly combo pass is sold only in "working class" stations. It was in response to a ridership group that felt people from the "burbs" were getting all the fare breaks. Here's how it works; you get to ride from Sun-Sat all subway lines and most bus lines (except for a few extended runs) for 12.50 a week. If this person rides 6 days a week and takes his free guest on Sundays, he would (and used to) spend $28.00. Needless to say, this pass is extremely popular.
While using a T cop to chase fare evaders sounds like a good idea, a better place for them is in the busways at the stations. At each busway there is a sign that says,"Do Not Enter $50.00 fine." Let's say a cop catches 3 cars. That would be 150 adult fare evaders or 300 kids jumping the turnstyles. The cop could even go to those "school" stations when school got out and stand by the turnstyles.
If you choose to break the law, you should pay the fine.
An automated system applies the law evenly and concsitantly. You can not ask for a system that is more fair
Sounds like a sequel:
Patriot Act II: Rise of the Fascists
:-(
The cop could be assigned to more important duty.
E-Zpass already employs such a ssytem to stop those who go through withiut paying(outside the MTA toll plaza's, most toll plazas do not use toll gates)
Automated enforcements of such offenses is the way to go.
NYCT should install such cameras on all buses to enforce bus lanes and bus stops.
AAA has a fit when bloomberg suggested this last year for DOT buses but it is something that should be done.
In my mind it is not big brother.
Really?? In the USA?? What has happened to equality before the law, equal rights, etc. etc.? And anyway, how on earth do you define a "working class" station?
How can anyone justify a price on offer only to people of one "class"? I thought that the anti-trust laws said that any price offered had to be offered to everyone. Imagine the outcry if it was only on offer to one sex, or to one race! To keep on topic, on this board the idea of cheaper MetroCards offered only to NYC residents (on the reasonable grounds that their local taxes support the MTA) has been rubbished before.
I used to be an Americophile, but sometimes I despair of your country.
I quite agree - but I still found it strange to see a suggestion that a type of concessionary ticket is on sale at "working class" stations only!
In my youth in England we still had "workmen's return" tickets - a very cheap fare which required that you arrive at your destination by 7 a.m. Perversely, there was a child's equivalent at half of the workman's return - which I used to use for a very cheap day's railfanning in London - even though child labour was long gone. Actually, by then the name had been changed to Early Morning Return (an early example of political correctness, before that term existed).
Many attempts to use class warfare on such item as luxury taxes on boats and the like have proven time and time again to hurt the middle class
The result of the luxury tax put on boats about ten years ago declining saes and 100 middle class jobs lost due to the factory closure.
In the US class warfare is a non issue due to the fact that EVERYONE has the opurtunity to move up in the world if one puts the hard work into doing so.
Many groups play on the class warfare issue for there own gains
For instance all these low income housing advoated "wins" over the past 50 years in NYC contributed the esculating of apartment prices especially in the 5 boro's
Rent control was ment as a temporary messure to prevent huge price spikes due to millions of soliders returning all at once who left as boys and returned as men
By not endig the price controls like most other major cities had done, thousands of apartment unts fell into disrepair plus few new marke rate building were built reducing supply and draging down neigborhoods. Add to the fact the teneant advocates who preached class warfare addded such rules as the ability for the rent control tenant to sub-lease his her apartment at a profit further reducing the supply and the lack of an income cab on rent control residents pushed prices into the sky
With the mass exodus of people to suburbs, there should have been a big oersupply of apartments in the 1960's which would have pushed rents down.
Manahattan's rental market is a perfect example. The NYTIMES reported yesterday that the average rents on two bedroom apartmants in prime locations are down $900 a months due to the oversupply of apartments because of the economy
http://www.nypost.com/realestate/76946.htm
Everyone has the oppurtunity to buy a lottery ticket and win the 110 million jackpot, but I would hardly consider it evidence of class equality. Just because there is a non-zero clance of class mobility, dosen't mean things are at all equitable or fair. Were things equitable and fair W Bush would be pumping gas at a Quick-E-Mart not serving as president.
As many have put it recently, class warfare is no longer an issue, the rich have won because they had the money to win it.
I don't want to get into rent control, but at least NYC isn't like Boston where a closet will cost you $800 a month.
You live in a dreamland. Anyone who goes to school and seriously pursues and education has the opportunity to get a job that more then raises oneself out of the ghetto but into a rather nice lifestyle.
The key word is "Serious" Showing up does not count!!!
What many poor or working class people lack is the roadmap to success? The do not know how to see the opportunity around them. There is plenty of opportunity for advancement in NYC. More then anyplace else in the world.
their are tens of thousands of jobs in NYC that pay $75-300k a year that go unfilled or filled by applicants from out of town because their is not enough qualified local applicants
The easiest way to climb into the middle class is to become an accountant or a nurse.
There is currently a tremendous nursing shortage in this city. My friend’s room mate gets an $1100 a month housing stipend to move from Chicago to NY to fill a nursing position. On top of that she gets $50 hour overtime as a temp nurse to fill an empty nursing slot at another hospital. She makes well over $100k
Thousands of immigrants have done so over the past 100 years. Take a walk through the halls or Brooklyn tech, Bronx science and Stuyvesant high school and you will find 95% of the students of minority or first generation immigrant decent.
Take a walk around sheepshead bay and Brighton beach. The Russians came to this country and pursued education and training in field that are in demand and have catapulted themselves from nothing to something.
Take a look at the Asian communities. Many chinned people are from rural farming providences in china where you are lucky to get a fifth grade education. They come here a work hard and many succeed. The parents break their backs for their Childs advancement.
Unfortunate the "advocates for the poor and working class" fail to provide the needed information to get these jobs. The key is education. Bloomberg is doing his best to transform the old board of Ed which was a political jobs program into the department of education focused on educating out children
“As many have put it recently, class warfare is no longer an issue, the rich have won because they had the money to win it. “
Why don’t you take a look at why some people prosper and others fail? Most people who earn big income have one thing in common. They work tirelessly at tier profession.
Most top earners in this city truly earn their money. Stock brokers, traders, sales professions earn most of their money on commission. Anyone who works hard, get an education (whether formal or informal) can make a good living as sales professional or trader. Anyone can get these jobs if they prove their worth to a company.
Another example is the African American Gentleman down in Philadelphia who saw a potential market for through back jerseys. He saw the demand urban circles for such a product. The suits at the major sports league did not. He purchased the license to sell old designs of jerseys and he is taking it to the bank
I made $12 thousand dollars in between my posts today on the stock market. I use my knowledge of accounting and fiancé plus consumer trends to take positions. Anyone who puts serious time studding stock market trends, company balance sheets and consumer perception can make tons of money in the stock market. I have made nearly $200k in between consulting jobs trading stocks. A good potion of the money I Borrowed from credit card companies who were offering 0% balance transfers (no transfer fee).
My background. My grandfather immigrated her illegally in the 1920’s. Worked 60 hour weeks in a butcher shop. Saved his money opened his first butcher shop in 1933. By 1955 he ran 7 butcher shops in east new york. Almost never took a vacation, saved his money, bought real estate. All along the way he helped his fellow family me members get settled in the US.
My dad worked as a bus driver and latter on worked on Wall Street. All my brothers and sister went to public schools. My dad made sure we did our homework, and took school seriously. My two sisters and I all worked our way through college paying all our own bills. All three of us are doing rather well
To make a long story short!!! Anyone with a passion and a dream can move up into the middle class. The problem is many people to be informed of opportunities hat are out there and what they need to do to get there. My dad was that gilding force in my life.
Easier said than done. My wife is an LPN who is trying hard to become an RN. Trouble is, everyone else wants to be an RN too (word of ample job opportunities spreads quickly), and as a result it's very difficult to get into nursing school. She might be able to take advantage of a largely self-study program for LPN's who want to upgrade, but most would-be nurses don't have that option.
Take a walk around sheepshead bay and Brighton beach. The Russians came to this country and pursued education and training in field that are in demand and have catapulted themselves from nothing to something.
Take a look at the Asian communities. Many chinned people are from rural farming providences in china where you are lucky to get a fifth grade education. They come here a work hard and many succeed. The parents break their backs for their Childs advancement.
"Chinned people?" You've really got to proofread!
Anyway, while what you say about immigrants is true to some extent, there's another thing to consider. Most income surveys look at total household incomes. Immigrants tend to have more wage-earners per household than do native-born persons. In immigrant families, women are more likely to work than be housewives, teenagers once again are more likely to have after school jobs, and there often are other working adult members of the extended family living in the household. As a result, immigrant groups often have relatively high household incomes even though each of the family members may have relatively low-paying jobs.
Besides, some of the talk about immigrant success tends to be exaggerated. Take Chinatown, for example, which is about as heavily an immigrant neighborhood as anywhere. I would have a very, very hard time calling it a successful-looking place or the people prosperous ... sorry, Qtraindash-7, but many of the mystical chix probably don't have the proverbial pot to you-know-what in.
What you fail to realize is China town is an entry point gateway neighborhood. Many generations of new Chinese immigrants started out in china town and moved on to other neighborhoods. They are then replaced by another wave of new arrivals.
New Asian immigrants feel comfortable in an area where the people know their language. They work hard save their money; make sure their children get an education. The family works together to buy a house. Sacrifice is the name of the game for new arrivals with little education. It is a fact of life. Many Asian immigrants come here and realize it sis their children who will see the benefits of their sacrifice. Many still live a better life then in china.
I know this because I went to school with many such an Asian students. My friend Wan Lee was sleeping in a closet on the floor in a cramped china town apartment when we were in high school. I was shocked when I went over his house after school one day. He graduated with honors from Penn and is a successful actuary. His parents toiled 60 plus hour weeks. His dad worked in a restaurant, his mother worked in a sweatshop just to buy him the computer he needed for school. At my 10 year high school reunion I heard many similar stories. Unfortunate many of my former class mates no longer live in NYC.
It is very hard to find many multi-generational residents in china town. A good portion of the success stories end up moving to Brooklyn, queens or New Jersey. If you remember correctly one of the major issues after sept 11 was that Chinese residents from the suburbs and outer borough were having a hard time getting to china town to shop on weekends harming business.
The same was true when the Manhattan Bridge flipped occurred closing Grand Street. Many Chinese residents who moved out of china town shop in china town stores to get the unique goods offered there. Although Chinese supermarkets and bakeries have sprung up in boro park and Benson Hurst.
As for the Russians, they came here with good educations. Add in tons of federal job training and placement money and you have a thriving community. This is a large reason why Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay are thriving. Prior to the mass arrivals in the early 1990's. The area around Sheepshead bay stations was getting rather grimmy with skells starting to appear. Today, new housing is everywhere. Sheapshead bay road storefronts are filled with boutique clothing stores, high price salons and restaurants. Co-ops in the new Oceana development at Coney Island Ave and Brighton Beach ave are priced up to a million dollars. 80% of the residents are of Russian decent.
There are two distant classes of immigrants here in NYC. Those that plan to live permanently in the US and those who come here and send money home. Many Mexicans fall into the send home category category. In fact it is estimated that $12 million dollars a year gets sent back to Mexico alone each year from NYC. That’s $12 million not spent on goods and services in our economy. In fact the lady hit by a falling stool outside Washington Irving High School yesterday was sending money home to support her 5 year old daughter and to buy a house back home.
The point simply is that one can pull himself out of the lower classes with hard work and determination. A big problem in this city is that many city council members and political leaders mislead their constituents. I still hear to this day that Blacks are held down by “the man “. Yet many New Arrivals from the Caribbean and Africa seem to be able to get themselves decent jobs.
A city councilman up in the Bronx held a press conference at city hall claiming that the TLC discriminates against Hispanics because it only offers the yellow cab taxi driver exam in English only. Yet the large majority of Yellow Taxi drivers are not of American decent.
It is all the excuses that hold people down. Stop making an excuse and start working. Like I mentioned earlier is that part of the problem is that many people just don’t know what’s available. We need more guidance consolers in schools teaching children from a young age that they need to do X in order to achieve Y. It is a breath of fresh air that Mayor Bloomberg is putting children at the Board of Ed instead the needs of the unions and politicians first.
Let’s hope mayor Bloomberg gets a second term so that he can shake up other city agencies and put the needs of the citizens ahead of the needs of the labor unions and politicians
Anything worth attaining takes effort. A few Years ago some nursing schools were concidering closing due to low attendance.
Nursing is a good way to climb up nto the middle class. A path open to all who put the effort into the endevor. It often takes years and much studing to get accepted in a good college or business school program.
UMM...what does your future wife have to do with this?
I really hope your job security does not depend on spelling ability.
Peace,
ANDEE
I live in Flushing and have a chin, but I'm from an urban industrial Providence in Rhode Island, not a rural farming Providence in China. The value of the education is about the same for both places.
As the article suggests, logistics force the MBTA to lose hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars during rush hour each day at busy Green Line stations--the few times I've boarded the T at BU during rush hour, I haven't seen anyone pay (after all, few people in the crowd even board at the front door).
And of course, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, $1 is incredibly low for a major American transit system, which makes it rather pathetic to find ways around buying a token...
Details:
Wed, 4 June 2003
4:30 pm
@ MTA
Board Room 5th Floor
347 Madison Ave.
NY Daily News story
Oh course an incident of physical confrontation would be noted on a trip sheet...what's so unusual about that? The writer needs to do more research on the workings of NYCT Buses before he takes pen to paper again.
The first incident was not a physical confrontation. It was a verbal threat. Not all comments by passengers, even gripes about fare increases are routinely noted. Reporting it shows the B/O took it seriously.
Tom
Bill "Newkirk"
A). DON'T DETERMINE FARE INCREASES!!!
B). DON'T DETERMINE SERVICE CHANGES!!!
C). ONLY DO THE JOB THEY ARE ASSIGNED!!!
I tell people all the time, that if they want to voice their furies, they can gladly be directed to:
A). 347 MADISON AVENUE, MANHATTAN....MTA HEADQUARTERS or
B). 370 JAY STREET, BROOKLYN....NYCT Headquarters
I, and all the rest of the conductors, bus drivers, train operators and TA operating personnel are the low people on the totem pole. If you want your voice of disapproval heard, take your gripes to the top!!!
My policy is simple, and I can be quadruple quoted, and speaking as a man with a family who wants to see me come home the same way I left.....IN ONE PIECE......and my policy goes like this......
Be as pissed off as you want....say whatever you want....raise your hand to me or make any offensive action against me to endanger my well-being, without ANY provocation, you get a FARE FREE trip to the nearest hospital!! Rule book out the window....TA policies out the window....Protection of my life and well being, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, is PRIORITY #1!!!
I have enough to worry about in life, like people trying to either blow up, gas or germ the system, personal matters and dealing with supervisory stupidity, etc. One's personal ignorance is not gonna be another. As stated I leave home in one piece....I COME BACK IN ONE PIECE!! Got NO TIME for stupidity and anger that should be directed towards the people who decide all this, and not the ones who simply do the job they are assigned. Just like the police, they don't make these ridiculous laws (i.e. milk crate sitting, sitting on subway stairs, or any other of the various laws of idiocy the city council and government has the police enforcing which make NO sense!!)....they just enforce them as their higher-ups tell them to do. This incident is just another clear-cut case of something one person is in no way responsible for, yet has to pay for it. Guilty by association goes to another level (referring to MTA employment....work for MTA, automatically guilty for everything the MTA higher-ups do!!)
BTW, did you see yesterday's paper about the 86 year old man on his BIRTHDAY got fined $50 for feeding pigeons, amazing :-\.
And hey, the police need to meet their 'quotas'. What can you do in a world like this? :-/
reality is there are numerous agredious offenses that go unpunished every day.
The police should grade level of offenses.
Grade one
- Police officer has no dicretion and must issue a ticker each and every time he see such an offense.
such offenses include making U-turns on busy street, parking in cront of a fir hydrant, bus stop, running a red light etc.
Grade two - Police officer should have discretion to issue a warning.
A pregnat lady sitting on subway steps is an example of this.
As for feeding pigeons. The guy deserves a ticket. Feedign pigeons creates a public safety hazzard with all the pigeon droppings.
As for faded inspection stickers, a ticket similar to ones issues if you don't have you drivers licence on body or you have a broken tail light. If you get the situation rectified within a period of time the ticket is dismissed. Theire are people out thier who put fake, worn mout inspection stickers to avoid registerin thier car, paying insurance or covering up a stolen vehicle
If you have a problem with the law, take t uo with the state sneate or city concil to change the law.
A pregnat lady sitting on subway steps is an example of this.
She said she got a warning after she was issued the summons, she was taking a breather since the seats were dirty and her back was hurting, is that her fault I don't think so.
As for feeding pigeons. The guy deserves a ticket. Feedign pigeons creates a public safety hazzard with all the pigeon droppings.
Ok the pigeon feeding is a hazard it but it was upsetting [and stupid] b/c they hardly enforce that, look at Newkirk Av that pigeon lady should get a ticket have you seen the mounds of pigeon shit there.
As for faded inspection stickers, a ticket similar to ones issues if you don't have you drivers licence on body or you have a broken tail light. If you get the situation rectified within a period of time the ticket is dismissed. Theire are people out thier who put fake, worn mout inspection stickers to avoid registerin thier car, paying insurance or covering up a stolen vehicle.
But at most times they are real inspection stickers, the prints turn bad and its good that they have a grace period to get the problem fixed. Of course I'm not saying that people take the time to produce phony ones on stolen vehicles and not registering them.
My point is don't jump to conclusions until all facts are known.
About the faded inspection sticker - How do you get a good one if your sticker fades before the one year is up? Also perhaps the sticker was faded intentionally in order to try and use it on another vehicle..... Again don't judge until all facts are known.
The man should be ticketed for feeding pidgeons. They're nothing but poop-machines that always find my car. What benefit do pidgeons serve to the eco-system at large? Perhaps if not fed, they would starve to death.....Better the man should feed them contraceptive laced food.
They should go after the illegal parkers more than anything. And put up more of the cameras at intersections that take pictures of the back license plate when someone runs a light. I've become quite fond of those and often I see a flash come out of them.
multilingual. Dang these fingers.
* Actually I lied. I took some videos and photos of Redbirds first. They will be posted shortly.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Actually, I was there yesterday (Tuesday). I was on my way home and I figured I would stop in.
I proposed a similar plan which connected Flushing to 60th Street, no Queens Blvd service thru 60th and the G running into Manhattan via Steinway. This was before I learned of the problems associated with widening the IRT tunnels for 10' cars.
There is no reason why the Roosevelt Lion cannot go through the 60th Street, IF you move the QB trains to the 63rd.
But there is no way that the 60th and Broadway could possibly handle the load from the Roosevelt Lion, unless the Northern Boulevard Line is built first.
And if all of this were to happen, I'd send the Steinway out via the Montauk to Woodhaven, all of the stops at new park-and-ride terminals, with some of the trains running on the Rockaway route to the Rockaways (where else) freeing (A) service to be extended along Liberty then north on Supthin to a new terminal at Hillside.
The (C) would become the Culver Express;
The (V) would terminate at WTC and
The (E) would run express on Fulton, past 76th Street to the County Lion via Linden Blvd.
: ) Elias
The best idea out there is extending the Astoria Line into LaGuardia. Cheapest, easiest and FASTEST route.
NOPE! : )
Following through the Sunnyside yards via the Hellegate approach then branching off along the Northern Parkway ROW leads you right into the airport with less than three miles of construction, all over existing ROW with no NIMBYs in sight.
Branch it across the Queensboro Bridge, and you've got yourself a real winner.
Elias
Elias
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Call 'em and ask.
Mark
In addition, for those keeping track of the new R142 deliveries, there were about 6 at NYA Fresh Pond yard today. I couldn't make out all the numbers, but I can confirm that #6934 and 6935 are on the property....
What I find interesting is that people will watch this happen, and then post a question here. Why not just call the LIRR, and ask, "What are you doing with the old M1 cars you get rid of?"
Hey, RonInBayside, let the kids have some fun. Sheesh. This forum ain't city hall, y'know. SubTalk is where ideas are tossed about. We help each other to learn more. Sorry but you tend to nag. Maybe some people don't like the process of getting information out of the various agencies. Nothing wrong with that.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Nice video, once you tilt your head to watch
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Jimmy :)
Come on NY, get over it, you had your fake subway series (transfers? BS, Red Line in Chicago goes direct, Wrigley-Comisky [or whatever it's called], THROUGH a subway!). Now we just need Sox fans to stop beating people in the game (not winning, more like bludgeoning people, but I bet they're losers at that too).
Chicago, home of the TRUE subway series!!!
Robert
---Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Any ideas on how to make 'new' go away on old messages?
Seriously though, does it remember your handle/password/email settings? It might be a cookie issue.
Netscape 7.xx *is* MOZILLA 1.xx ... Netscape merely adds AOL spying to the Mozilla browser. You might consider replacing Netscape with Mozilla - same browser, fewer screwups, less little men in black flack jackets running around inside. :)
I think Dave made a minor cookie change sometime in the past few weeks. Something similar happened to me too. It turned out that the browser wound up with multiple cookies and the "old" one kept getting used.
If your version of Netscape is anything like my version of Mozilla (and the chances are good that it is,) go to Tools:Cookie Manager:Manage Stored Cookies and remove all cookies from .nycsubway.org and talk.nycsubway.org, if any. You'll need to set your preferences again and enter your handle and password the first time you post, but that's probably easier than figuring out which cookies you want to keep.
Also, consider using Camino or Safari as your web browser. You'll probably like your computer a whole lot more.
Mark
As for Netscape, I tried 7.xx and went quickly back to 6.2 - much better!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You had to know it was only a matter of time before this happened. Better get those pics now. By the end of next week, the walls will read "BROADWAY" and "JUNCTION," and not "BROADWAY" "EAST NY."
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
I noticed they did something similar at Delancey Street, neatly cutting out white tile and installing captions, these are not only in the wrong place but are too few and in the wrong font! It's so cockeyed, but so consistent, that it leads me to believe that they did it that way on purpose.
wayne
I wonder what they'll think of York Street.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Let's hope the new tile is the correct IND font! I'd sure hate to see a mismatch.
They DID leave the Blueberry Blue tile, I take it.
wayne
Delancey St. had missing tiles for several months before they finally put in the new lettering. Maybe the Bway-ENY contractors will be a little more efficient.
It's to simplify the system by assigning one name to one station complex.
Another example is the so-called "Broadway-Nassau" station, which is part of the massive Fulton Street complex in Lower Manhattan.
The reason why it is called Bdwy Nassau, because the train is under Fulton St, and not to confuse people with Fulton St in Brooklyn.
Yes, that was the original reason: station names generally took the names of the streets they crossed. Back when that station wasn't connected to the other stations in the complex, this was a most logical name for it. But that is no longer true. Most people refer to the whole complex as simply "Fulton St," and as the station becomes a more popular destination for tourists it becomes a point of confusion. I use the station regularly, and I often find myself giving directions to perplexed visitors. I suspect that a re-naming of the A/C platforms will be part of the overall redesign of the complex.
The potential confusion with Fulton St in Brooklyn isn't a likely problem in practice. We seem to accept that there are five "86th St" stations in the system which are many miles apart (two in Brooklyn, three in Manhattan), none of which are connected. There are many other similar examples, such as two "Grand St" stations (one in Brooklyn, one in Manhattan).
And after all, there are already two "Fulton Street" stations, so it wouldn't introduce a new confusion. Renaming Bway-Nassau will simply make that station easier to navigate.
When I've worked at High St/Brooklyn Bridge, there have been people who thought they were at the Manhattan end of the bridge.
When people ask me "How do I get to Fulton St?" I ask them for a specific place along Fulton St. On the A in Brooklyn there is Lafayette, Clinton/Washington, Frankiln, Nostrand, Kingston/Throop, Utica, Ralph and Rockaway. Not to mention Alabama, Cleveland, Van Sicklin and Cresent St on the J. And there is also Hoyt on the IRT 2 line. And of course there is Fulton and the IRT lines in Manhattan.
The IND already has at least one point of confusion: the Jay Street station, which isn't the cross street. To make things even worse, the next stop on the F is York Street, which is also under Jay Street (and, in fact, the entrance is on Jay Street but half a block away from York Street). (And don't get me started on the Borough Hall subtitle!)
Why not just Mott Haven/Grand Concourse on the lower level and leave the upper level (4 line) alone as 149th st/GC?
For better or worse. {sigh}
I must say I'm impressed with some of the ideas they present, even if a lot of it is the result of very poor initial surveying and engineering. Stuff like freezing the soil to prevent mass-wasting when you dig out the soft ground below the tracks, on site production of tunnel sections and the bridging of the Red Line tracks, later the tunneling under the Red Line station are all very cool.
And yet, despite any of this the whole thing has a fundamental flaw, it a massive 80/20 funded HIGHWAY (ugh!) program that in 20 years will be overloaded, and whose massive cost basically kills or at least precludes any major transit investment by the Feds for at least 10-15 years. With the funding for this it's likely that the entire MBTA commuter railroad could be extended, with most lines recieving at least partial electrification, oh, AND a North Station - South Station connector!
At the very least they should charge a hefty toll for using this monstrosity, and when, sometime after 2020 the thing finally pays off it's cost, all the profit every year should be given to MBTA for capitol programs.
Finally, that park that they show at the end, where's the F!@# are the LRT tracks in the medians??? At the very least they could lay some tracks in the tiny green strips there. ANYTHING to at least somewhat rectify this massive Robert Mosesque project, they didn't destroy any neighborhoods, but they killed any chance of an SAS with some federal funding!
And I see Bahstahn drivers are right up there with NY, NJ and PA drivers!
VID #1 1.2MB
VID #2 1.0MB
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm the loon who -ASKED- for these videos and here I go having trouble DOWNLOADING
them....
Something about "error downloading from codecs server"...
??
The previous IRT Museum Cars @ Times Square BMT downloaded and plays
fine ONLINE and OFFLINE.
:s
2) You go to my post with the links
3) Right click on each of the links, choosing "save target as"
4) save it, let it download, and then find it on your computer
5) doubleclick the file, or open it from the Divx player
6) It should play
THANKS TO CHAPTER 11 CHOO CHOO for completing the suggestion.
Available at nycsubwayline.com
Shameless plug from Subway grrl!
If you're selling something not too obnoxious, like on eBay or a wenstore, start your post ADV:, if it's just a link to something of interest, start it LINK:.
Think so?
Sounds good to me.
Maybe VEND:
That makes you the type of mark every sales exec loves. :-)
Tom
Blind links without any commentary should be avoided, not labeled. If it is not worth commenting on, it is not worth posting. Once there is a comment, the link itself becomes obvious.
Notices of artifacts for sale on e-Bay are usually clear in the titles themselves (except the failure to list models as such),
Tom
I've been here for a while, I've learned over the time that certain people are interesting or at least AMUSING, and others have a stick up their stovepipe ... As an example of my OWN amusements, Jersey Mike's been kicked down to posting links to Destination Freedom for rather interesting articles that I *can't* read because the morons who RUN it insist on Windows users ONLY using Aiyee ... I use Netscape, so I have to pass up on interesting "LINK:" because I *can't* ... I'd rather he just posted the ARTICLE so's I could read it, but he's been shouted down here.
Perhaps we can have a warning "PHOTOS:" too ... those eat bandwidth, and on a New York State "Tech Valley dialup" those are KILLERS. Not everybody has DSL in this "empire state of looto" ... and can we REALLY count on people posting a warning on the header "I'm WHINING!" about this, that or the other?
Don't mind me ... I've taken a bit of guff from others here, and perhaps we all need some "content labelling" before we click. :)
I labelled this one. Betcha nobody reads it now. Heh.
In case you needed further proof that the human race is doomed,
here are some actual label instructions on consumer goods:
* On Sears hairdryer:
Do not use while sleeping.
* On a bag of Fritos:
You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside.
* On a bar of Dial soap:
Directions: Use like regular soap.
* Some Swann frozen dinners:
Serving suggestion: Defrost.
* On a hotel-provided shower cap in a box:
Fits one head.
* On Tesco's Tiramisu desert:
Do not turn upside down. (Printed on the bottom of the box.)
* On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding:
Product will be hot after heating
* On packaging for a Rowenta Iron:
Do not iron clothes on body
* On Boot's Children's Cough Medicine
Do not drive car or operate machinery
* On Nytol (a sleep aid):
Warning: may cause drowsiness
* On a Korean kitchen knife:
Warning keep out of children
* On a string of Chinese-made Christmas lights:
For indoor or outdoor use only.
* On a Japanese food processor:
Not to be used for the other use
* On Sainsbury's Peanuts
Warning: contains nuts
* On an American Airlines packet of nuts:
Instructions: open packet, eat nuts.
* On a Swedish chainsaw:
Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands
And to think - since conservatives have wielded power since the 1980's, kinda humorous hearing "liberals" get blamed for all this nonsense. I was THERE! The *LAST* liberal in America was eaten by a bear in 1985. :)
I don’t blame the manufacturers, particularly of chain saws, ladders, hair-dryers etc, for putting don’t labels when it would appear that the don’t is a matter of common sense. Tort lawyers and the courts have essentially established that there is no such thing as common sense, unfortunately.
Common sense died. RIP.
I suspect that it’s all going to get worse, then we’ll have the revolution.
John
I suspect that it’s all going to get worse, then we’ll have the revolution.
Very true. It's a bit stupid that places like McDonalds have to put a message on their coffee that reads something like: "Coffee is hot, you can get burned". But you see what happened when they didn't have that message on their cups.
There are so many out there that are lawsuit happy.
IMHO common sense didn't die. It was legislated out of existence.
Most of us like photos, (and yours have been particularly interesting) but it is better to put a link in a post that describes them rather than putting them in the body of the post. That way those who do not want to spend the time downloading them for whatever reason can quickly decide whether to look at them or not.
Tom
I have Netscape Communicator 4.73 on Windows ME, and it displays Destination Freedom just fine. I suppose you're using Netscape for Unix.
No Aiyee in this house. If I *use* a Winders box on non-"lab rat" duty, I run 4.76 ... but I do most of my surfing in Linux ... and Netscape STILL bites the bag. Mozilla is almost as hosed too. :(
Then again, webmasters who do Aiyee can't fathom why they're out of work for writing sites that won't run without javascript AND Aiyee in a world where everyone's learned to turn OFF javascript PERMANENTLY and not use Aiyee ... no WONDER China's kicking our butts. There's STILL a viable internet OUTSIDE the United States. If our Shrub would only send Bill Gates to jail for a spell, this could be cured. Then again, Ken Lay's still walking the streets. Nevermind.
Destination Freedom (place prop under right side of monitor before visiting in IE) doesn't seem to like Netscape. Site locks up like drum after 1/3 rd of page. Irritating as hell.
So, I ignore.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And you can always hit the back button...
Meanwhile, we pyth and moan about photography, have our own beloved PEGGY on the edge of pulling the plug for her TOURS and the end is nowhere in sight. :(
What the HELL is WRONG with you people? Have you REALLY decided to let the terrorists WIN? Have you LOST your sense of humor" Have you all gone BERSERKO? Whatever happened to "I don't care about this thread or this author, I'll SKIP it?"
GEEZ ...
"contains THOUGHT, WARNING, WILL ROBINSON!" :(
GEEZ, Chris, and everybody else ... subtalk is WHAT IT IS because people BOTHER ... LIKE YOU! ... for those who don't LIKE to have fun, scroo'em ... *I* can judge what I like, what I'll read, what I'll ignore, and ***WHO*** I'll ignore ... if someone's ads on eBay cheese you off, put them in da KILLFILE. If someone's jokes or politics honk you off, put them in the KILLFILE. Eventually you'll have NOTHING to read.
GEEZ! (walks away muttering and shaking his head trying to understand WHY America's turned to mindless idiots whining about everything)
POST yer pictures ... *I* like them ... wish people would participate MORE ... it'd lower MY posting profile numbers a bit. :)
This is OUR COUNTRY, we won't let thugs of 9/11 stop us.
With so *MANY* people who contribute LITTLE here taking on the duties of "thought police", it's all *GONE* ... and we're all the LESS off for that. And to see that Peggy's getting a bit shaky too, well, there goes the OTHER slipper. :(
Subtalk is what it is because of its DIVERSITY, its many "popular" *AND* unpopular thoughts ... it was (and still remains, though marginally now) a TREAT for those of us who tire of discussions of where how many V trains go to nowhere in an hour who seek UNIQUE TREATS and some background on how it all works.
For folks who came here to enjoy the LITTLE KNOWN TALES, we've chased them all away with the rantings and poor judgement of a few THOUGHT COPS ... who ELSE will be chased away before folks realize that enforcement of THOUGHT is its own crime? If you don't LIKE something, skip it and move on. Banging in those who gave you your moments of joy is the penultimate stupidity.
Pardon my rant, but I always thought SUBTALKERS were beyond such foolishness. :(
Some posters here never had it to lose.
The only things that bother me on this board are insults and endless repetition. For example, I thought the first 20 laments for the Sea Beach were fine.
There's a new Wall Street Miracle Diet. Buy stocks at lunchtime and lose your butt by dinner.
Now we know what compassionate conservatism means: I feel your pain, but I won't do a darned thing to help.
Should I ever come home drunk late at night with lipstick on my collar, I'd like Ari Fleischer there to explain it to my wife.
Barum-pum. Watch the CLOSING doors, please ... next stop, *HELL* ... :)
In response to GP38 Chris, what got you to say that you won't post as much pics as you used to, look at how Chapter 11 Choo Choo, Goumba Tony, David Greenberger, DTrain22 and others post their pics proudly. Don't be ashamed to post them, you're only contributing and giving for all to see. If we were so square and withheld our opinions we'll have nothing much to discuss.
GEEZ! (walks away muttering and shaking his head trying to understand WHY America's turned to mindless idiots whining about everything)
I AGREE, I don't get it neither :-\!!!!!!
I AGREE, I don't get it neither :-\!!!!!!"
Darn it, again with the O.T. crap! Look, fellers, who the hell is going around whining? In the real world, not the world the "news" people would have you believe exists. Nobody I know of personally whines and shivers about "the future". People mainly worry about their personal woes. Sure, we'll think about things. Only natural. But, people still gotta shop for groceries, go on vacations, get to work, etc. Maybe the solution for you guys is to stop reading the newpapers and watching news reports on tv. For me, the best news comes outta the radio. Quick, to the point, minimal slanting.
I ain't no "mindless idiot", and I strongly object to your usage of that term. It may make you feel better about yourself, make you feel superior to "those other folks" or something....but it's really a form of elitism.
Here's some bandwidth to tie up the phone lines:
Sorry, it's not an Arnie, but it's the 3rd Ave El, so that should be fine.
THANKS!!!
But, what are those bright things on each corner?
Headlights? We don't need no stinking headlights!!!
Real subway cars don't need headlights.
Interesting shot though - while platformed, those markers were supposed to remain green green or green white and not be changed until relaying ...
That train looks packed, doesn't it?:)
I wonder if any of those photos in the car section feature a train with you as part of the crew.
If you showed up at 59 with your reds up, then you *WERE* an A train. The bulkhead signs were hard to read from the 125 tower, so if you were showing reds up top, you WENT to 207. Happened here and there often enough that you'd get reminded of it by your TMO ... back in MY day, a wrong line up was ENTIRELY the motorman's fault. When the markers went dark and went away, it became a "shared responsibility."
--Mark
http://nycsubwayline.com
snicker.
I have no conflict, but I can only wonder some of us MAY have conflicting plans that day....
Will the trip STILL RUN even tho it's a 'Family' Holiday??
End of Q.
Dave Greenberger- please FWD Question to Peggy.
Its so sad REdbirds are being scrapped ,but we have to follow the technology as the rest of the world does.
P.s anybody wants i have pics of the new metro system of athens.
Everyone and their in-laws posting on this board each has their own opinion
as to which LINE IS THE BEST in the NYC system...
IIRC, the 7 is slated to get first crack at newer cars when the next IRT contract comes to buying?
IIRC, even moreso, the 7 was the FIRST LINE to test out the r62/62a fleet..
So, your 7 DOES get the new cars... it's just a matter of KEEPING 'em there (that's the hard parte).
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
As for new trains on the 7 Line, they are called the R142 & R142A Trainsets, and cannot be put onto the 7 Line due to Third Rail conditions.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
'Why?' is the query that bears the most prominence in this instance.
I think 7 line is the most popular line and it deservs it. 'Popular?' Based on what? If by that you mean ridership, I would agree with you, but new rolling stock wouldn't really alleviate this issue. Besides, the (7) will get new rolling stock whenever the MTA sees fit. IMO, the earliest possibility is if New York wins the contest of being host for the 2012 Olympics. Most likely, NYC politicians will want to put NYC in a good light, so it would be smart to buy new cars on the (7), which will serve as a major carrier for the events.
From there, I doubt will be alot to be discuss about the MannyB Service in 2004, Majority of the MannyB Subway line will be unlike today, yesterday (since 1985). I know that some of u will attend that meeting. From now til June 12 4 PM, we still have the chance to persua NYCT to make changes on 2004 Service Plan. What would like to see happened in the New 2004 MannyB Service. I Know Fred is still not please with his N stuck on the Montague Rathole every nite. To satisfy Fred, N can remain via Bridge around the clock 24/7. To do that, a change must be made in R and W line.
1. The B D Flip-Flop and Yellow circle Q
A. D via West End (as former B and W line) and B via Brighton as (former Q diamond Express Service) according to the NYCT 2004 Plan.
B. D return to Brighton as local in (pre 7/22/2001) and B returns to West End as (pre 7/22/2001) with Yellow circle Q become the Q - yellow diamond (no need to return the orange Q)
2. N via Bridge/R extended to 57th late nite
a. N run via Bridge accordin to NYCT.
b. N run via Bridge and local in Manhattan until late nite. From late nite N via Montague Ratholes.
c. N run via Bridge 24/7 including late nite hrs and express in Manhattan, all time, late nite (N local service between 49th Street and Prince replace by R all time. - R extended to 57th Street late nite and runs normal below canal to brooklyn.
3. W and M Service.
a. W returns to Brooklyn once again but this time replaces M to/from Bay Parkway in Rush hr and Midday (maybe). M cutsback to chamber or broad. Or shift the M to bay ridge/sea beach line weekdays only.
b. W and M service according to NYCT 2004 MannyB Service Plan.
4. 2004 Fleet assignment for the B line.
a. R40S alike pre 1997
b. R32
c. Remain R68/68A
d. R40M/42
5. 2004 Fleet assignment for the W line.
a. R46
b. R32
c. R40S
d. R40M/42
e. Remain R68 with Mix bag combo
6. The extension of the V train
a. V should remain as it is today
b. Extend the V to/from Brooklyn
wayne
Ah, but that's a lot more expense.
There's no easy answer. Either upset the "traditional" routes or else confuse the customers. It's all because the West End can't terminate at Queensbridge any more.
Neither you nor anyone else who posts here knows how much weight the MB can handle.
There are people with degrees in civil engineering and access to lots of data about the bridge who have done detailed analyses. Those people have made professional judgments about how much weight the bridge can handle. They don't post here, though.
I do believe that NYCT talks to those engineers, and isn't going to put more trains on the bridge than the engineers recommend. We just have to hope the engineers' professional jugments are correct.
Oh yeah I remember that G.O. in the summer of 2000 when they diverted N on the B line to Queensbridge. That sure really gotten every 8th Avenue rider's attention.
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach---Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Now Now, lets not called each other names.
This is the Bronx bound 6 train
The next stop is Kool-D Plaza
Stand Clear of a closing door pleaz.
Ding Dong! Dock! EEEERRRRRREEEEEE
I think the one the TA proposed is the easy answer. It will become the new "tradtional" route immediately. The only thing that isn't "simple" in Brooklyn" is that the Sea Beach runs express via bridge sometimes, local via bridge other times, and local via tunnel overnight.
Back in the day, the 24/7 Brighton service ran on the Broadway line via the Montigue Tunnel. Now it will run on the Broadway line express via bridge. Some people keep arguing that 6th Avenue service is better. But remember, when the bridge flip occured West End riders screamed about the loss of 6th Avenue service, but Brighton riders did not. And West End riders were yelling about access to Grand Street, not 6th Avenue vs. Broadway.
Today 27 via bridge (9,9,9) and 22 via tunnel at most (8 N, 8 R, 6 M), for a total of 49.
Future 14 via tunnel (8 R 6 M) and, according to an article I read, 40 via bridge, for a total of 54.
Even load says just two more on the Brighton, two more on the Sea Beach (total of 10), and one more on the West End (total of 10).
Current crowding says the majority of them should go to the Brighton, especially with the M staying on the West End.
There are 2 equally unsatisfactory choices.
1. More Brighton (12 and 12) than West End or Sea Beach (8 and 8). Then loads are balanced but you get merge delays at the bridge because sometimes 2 Brightons have to fit between a pair of West End or Sea Beach trains. You also end up with uneven spacing of Brighton trains.
2. Equal numbers (10 of each). Then the Brighton is more crowded but as long as nothing goes wrong the merges are very smooth.
In many similar cases NYCT chooses option 1: more 2s than 3s, more 4s than 5s, more Rs than Ns or Ws at 60th St, more Es than Vs.
In some cases they choose option 2: equal numbers of Rs and Vs, equal numbers of Lefferts and Far Rockaway trains.
2. Equal numbers (10 of each). Then the Brighton is more crowded but as long as nothing goes wrong the merges are very smooth.)
Maybe this just shows that the M should go to the Brighton. But perhaps that isn't enough service on the West End.
Which brings back my original suggestion, which was the plan the TA has proposed but with only nine trains for each service on the bridge, AND the M still on the West End, PLUS running the Z through on the Brighton.
Lose four 10 car trains per hour on the bridge, add six 8 car trains per hour via tunnel. Net need -- eight cars. Maybe not even that, since a Z on the Brighton Express would move faster, and require less cars, than additional Brighton local, West End, or Sea Beach trains. I also proposed keeping mid-day M service.
But this adds 6 more trains to the place only 25% of the riders want to go (lower Manhattan), while cutting 4 trains from midtown. Instead of the Brighton trains being crowded from Church Ave to Dekalb, they'll be crowded from Church Ave to 14th. And the Sea Beach and West End trains will also be more crowded.
Right now there are about 20 tph through the Montague. The Ms are ridiculously empty (I've observed numerous ones between 5 and 5:30 with about 300-400 riders) and the Ns and Rs are far from full (est. 600 riders). That capacity could better be used on the bridge, where currently trains are very full.
The last Z of the evening will run down the Brighton line well before the evening rush begins.
(I've pointed this out a few times already.)
Look at the J/Z schedule.
You'd just have to run them up from the Coney Island Yard. Perhaps they could be given a different letter and relay at Chambers, like the old brown Rs. Brown Q-diamonds, anyone?
I agree that the Brighton line needs more trains, but you can't run 12 TPH on the Q and only 10 on the N without problems. Same with the B/D.
I don't really see the sense in splitting the service between Broadway and Nassau St. They serve an almost identical area. Splitting the service therefore won't matter in the morning - if you get on at a stop in Brooklyn between 36th St and Court St, you get whatever comes first to go downtown. In the evening, however, you have to choose which station you go to - your options are in effect halved. If anything, people will realise that the R is more frequent, so there will be packed R trains leaving Manhattan and empty M trains. The obvious solution would be to terminate the M train at Broad St and run the W in its place in Southern Brooklyn.
Perhaps the problem is NYCT doesn't think it can terminate 18 tph at Broad in the rush hour. Otherwise, it does seem like a much better plan.
Even better, merge the M and the V. Rush hour Vs are at 8 minute intervals with additional trains at some of the 4 minute interval. Just send the trains at 8 minute intervals to Metropolitan Ave. and terminate the rest at 2nd Ave. for possible eventual travel to the Culver. I suspect NYCT isn't doing that because they don't want to make any changes to the V for fear of annoying the gradually increasing ridership.
Doesn't it manage something almost identical at 71/Continental? The terminal arrangements are pretty similar. If anything, Broad would be simpler, as you wouldn't have anyone on that platform thinking he could board a train there.
Even better, merge the M and the V.
It's an idea I rather like!
I suspect NYCT isn't doing that because they don't want to make any changes to the V for fear of annoying the gradually increasing ridership.
I wouldn't have thought that much of the V train's ridership used 2nd Avenue. I doubt most of the existing riders would notice a Southern Terminal change.
I wouldn't have thought that much of the V train's ridership used 2nd Avenue. I doubt most of the existing riders would notice a Southern Terminal change.
I mean having to cut the V down to 480' to merge it with the M. That might be trumpeted by Straphangers as an admission by NYCT that the V isn't doing a good job on Queens Blvd.
Coney Island Yard appears to be treating the R-40 and R-40M identically, and presumably the R-42 will be in the same boat. Coney Island Yard also hasn't had any R-32's for months, so how do you expect to find R-32's on the B or W?
My strong guess is that CIY will run them on the same lines that run R-40's, just like the R-40M's.
Sorry Fred, they don't open the windows anymore, and they don't open the doors while going over the bridge, at least not on purpose.
We have the current Q Diamond express train, and "Diamonds are Forever", while you and Express M are Mr. Wintt and Mr. Kidd.
What matters is where and when the trains run. If that's got right, people will be happy. People have got used to different letters before; they'll be used to the TA's new pattern within a few weeks of the change. As others have pointed out, it is such a long time since the MB was fully open that hardly anyone (except railfans) will remember what the original pattern of lines was.
P.S. I've never ridden the Sea Beach, but next time I come to NYC I'll take the train (whatever letter it might have by then) that goes over the bridge and along the SB, Fred, I promise!
What makes you think that posters on Subtalk are a representative sample of New Yorkers?
As far as I'm concerned the Brighton could be called the XJY and I'd still take it happily when it went where I was going.
Next stop on my magnificent line is 20th Avenue.
HA HA!!!!
I sure hope they combine it as QT.
</deliberately inflammatory post>
We say things differently but we all agree on one thing: THE SEA BEACH LINE SUCKS!
"City Hall.......This is a Slow Beach train to 86th St. Brooklyn. Next stop Cortlandt St. Stand clear of the closing doors and hold your ears."
On the next Jerry Springer - "The railfans war zone"
You don't wanna missed
Jerry: My guest on today show say they are tired of nasty name calling to their favorite subway.
Jerry: Please meet Sea Beach Fred. Sea Beach Fred is tired of his subtalk collegues calling his favorite subway line "A Slum Bitch Train."
Jerry: Tell me what the story.
Sea Beach Fred: Well Jerry, I here confront my subtalks collegue Kool-D, Bob, Q Brightliner, and Flatbush to quit insulting my favorite subway line. This must stop.
Jerry: Well, ur subtalk collegue is here and they are in backstage and heard what u've just said. Here is Kool-D and rest of your subtalk collegues.
Audience: Cheering and laughting shouting "Jerry! Jerry!...."
Sea Beach: How dare ya' called my Sea Beach line a nasty name...Fight brokeout @#%&*#@*
Audience: Shouted Jerry! Jerry!..."
Flatbush41
#1 Brighton Exp. Bob
Brighton Exp. Gene
Q Brightliner
Q Exp.
Bill "Newkirk"
Paul Mathus
QTraindash-7
Not even 'Q's vast array of gadgets, nor the Aston Martin can save you brother. Funny how they selected the letter Q in most of the James Bond films, they will NEVER BE AN "n".
(On OT note: How did UPN end up showing 007 films starting this and every Friday night? And they will rip "Dr. No" to pieces in terms of scenes deleted.)
Jerry: As u can see Sea Beach Fred is upset and angry. However there is more to this story. Sea Beach Fred what more can u tell us?
Sea Beach Fred: You called my Sea Beach Line, a slum bitch train! We guest what, your Brighton line is know to be as Blighton Bitch line and "Brutal Blighted Barfy Brighton.."
Second round match... @#$%*&#@#.
Audience: Jerry! Jerry!.
Jerry: Sea Beach Fred, there is someone here to back u up on this madness.
Sea Beach: You've got that right Jerry, I've brought all my other N train friends with me to your show and making sure Kool-D and his gang will be F****** (BEEEEP!)taken care of.
Jerry: Well, I believe they're in back stage and already know whats going. Lets meet ntrainride and other Sea Beach Fred supportive group, here is ntrainride NBroadway, SeaBeach 53 and the rest of the gangs.
Audience Shouted and clapping: Bring them out! Bring them out! Bring them out!
Third round match @$#$^#$%$#$^$*&3*@$#$@#
Audience Shouted: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
NBroadway: How dare ya F****** (beeeeeeeeep!) blighton b*tches called Sea Beach line a bad name!
Fourth round match #$%#%#%#$@#$@#$..
JERRY: WE'LL BE BACK FOR THE COMMENT FROM THE AUDIENCE.
That's real torture for you when my so-called Blighton Bitch local train has to share tracks with your Slime Bitch line over the bridge.
"Track 2, it's the N Broadway Local via tunnel to Astoria. Lawrence St., next stop."
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, of course it is still possible, but I can't imagine why they'd do that. The whole point of the Chrystie St project was to realign the system to where a majority of passengers wanted to go.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
1:B
2:B would make the most sense, three services on Broadway in the nighttime is a waste of rolling stock, salary and time.
3:Unknown on that one although I think B might be a better option however it would be nice if the M returned via Brighton in the rush.
4:That is questionable but if the B is remaining part time, the R40/R40M and R42? would make the most sense.
5:Seems like the W might be a mix.
6:The V should go to Brooklyn however right now it isn't possible, 2 Av is a unsuitable terminal but there's no other option.
A. D via West End (as former B and W line) and B via Brighton as (former Q diamond Express Service) according to the NYCT 2004 Plan.
2. N via Bridge/R extended to 57th late nite
d. None of the above-N runs via tunnel and broadway local all times except rush hours and middays, via bridge and Broadway Express all other times
3. W and M Service.
b. W and M service according to NYCT 2004 MannyB Service Plan.
4. 2004 Fleet assignment for the B line.
a. R40S alike pre 1997
5. 2004 Fleet assignment for the W line.
d. R40M/42
6. The extension of the V train
b. Extend the V to/from Brooklyn
2. a. N run via Bridge accordin to NYCT.
3. a. W returns to Brooklyn once again but this time replaces M to/from Bay Parkway in Rush hr and Midday (maybe). M cutsback to chambers or broad. Or shift the M to bay ridge/sea beach line weekdays only.
4. (B line) d. R40M/42
5. (W line) e. Remain R68 with Mix bag combo
6. a. V should remain as it is today
Making
Transit
Aggravating
You are so right. The MTA should never refurbish anything. The system was so much nicer in the 1970s. Why didn't they leave all of that lovely grafitti on all of the cars and stations? That's what I want to know. And who needs new cars? Let the redbirds run for another 40 years.
You REALLY enjoyed the constant derailments, breakdowns, and track fires in the deffered maintenance era. Bet you left the house at least 3 hours before you had to report to work.
The LRV is supposed to start running on the test track this week.
It's been exciting watching the project progress over the last two years. All of the track work is now done except for the Main Street Bridge/UHD Terminal (less than .25 miles), and it is getting close.
Two weeks ago, when I drove the entire alignment, the overhead wires were in place from the yards to the Smith Lands station (about 2.5 of the 7.5 miles.
I know the Houston system is going to be one of the smallest and worst designed systems in the country, but I'm still amazed it actually got built with all the political opposition it had.
The Smith Lands stations is at a huge contract parking facility for the Texas Medical Center. In fact, trains from Smith Lands to Herman Park (just north of the Medical Center) will run every 3 minutes, while the rest of the sytem will run every 6 minutes.
I think the Metrorail system is going to have a larger impact on the Medical Center than on downtown.
Houston probably has the most advanced HOV system in the country, which allows commuters from all over the area a fast, non-stop trip to downtown. The light rail will allow people to take the commuter busses to downtown, then transfer to the rail to get to the Medical Center.
Anouncement of closure:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2932318.stm
One of the line controllers comments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2940958.stm
Andrew.
Rail tales
Train-spotters tell their tales of being turfed off platforms
-Robert King
What’s next? A strip search before you get on the Tube?
Not when I was on it on Tuesday.
As elsewhere, ordinary people have more commonsense than either journalists or politicians, and they are using the tube normally.
http://www.brooklynrail.com/images/News_11/Brooklyn_Eagle_5.28.2003.jpg
From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, May 28, 2003
Bob D.
--Mark
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
The 5/27 Brookly Daily Eagle article talks about dozens of nycDOT trucks & other equip., plus staff that came & carted away a bunch of stuff from the lot you were using.
Me deepest sympathies for what little cash that's worth. :(
Probably one of the few legal things remaining.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Not to criticize you personally but what makes you so sure there are extenuating circumstances? What about the cops in the Bronx several years ago, under pressure to issue summonses, who ran over the traffic sensor to change the light for unsuspecting motorists to red just so they could issue summonses...or the cops who instead of patrolling and preventing things like stolen cars hide and wait for some unsupecting not too tough looking person nail them for passing a red light when the light is yellow or have the audacity to issue a red ligt ticket even though they can't see the colour of the light and assume the light is functioning properly...I've had that happen to me and I asked the officer point blank how he could sign a summons sayng he personally observed me passing the light and then admitted from his hiding position, he couldn't see the colour of the light when I entered the intersection. Of course the hearing officer, on the same payroll as the cop, found me guilty (whatever happened in this country to innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonabledoubt; afterall I could see the colour of the light, the cop couldn't....
But of course issuing summonses is all about raising revenue. Years ago, luckily for motorists who lived on the island, traffic court was traffic court and since people had to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and could request a jury trial, these hassling traffic summonses (now I am not referrig to people who wontonly run lights but those borderline infractios you know we all face) were reduced to equipment violations No points on the license, no raised insurance rates. Unfortunately, New York City does not give a motorist a chance...you have lawyers hired by the city moonlighting as hearing officers who I am sure would lose their jobs if they didn't convict all the motorists who come in front of them.
That is one reason it is hard to have respect for many of the cops.
#3 West End Jeff
The nice side effect is that those out there blantanly ignor every traffic rule now have to fear getting punished for their danjerous actions
As for the hearing officers, the departmetn of finace will be hiring full time staff to handle cases instead of the current per diems
The whole ticket blitz story is getting blown way out of preportion. The local news outfits are activly hunting down stories which leads those who crave the sptlights to make up reiculous stories.
The fact is in this city, cops rarely enforce the law and issue summons which leads to people feeling it is their right to make U-turns in busy narrow streets, run red lights at will etc.
All in all the police issue far too few summons as compared to the level of flagrant offenses out there.
Commit the crime, pay the fine. No if ands or butts. maybe this city will become livable againf
I agree with you upon that statement. The cops have got to crack down on the most flagrant vilators of the traffic laws and other laws.
#3 West End Jeff
For instance the police officer shot in NJ yesterday was wearing a wireless mic. And his patrol car had a video camera catching the entire incident
The technology is available for each patrol officer to wear a wireless mic and video camera. These devices weigh only a few ounces and would eliminate the he said she said scenario.
It is time the police department moves into the 21st century
PDA like tablet computer's replace the ticket book.
These wireless devices help out policing tediously in the following ways
1) Make summons faster and easier to write.
----A searchable listing of offense would be contained in each device.
---Identity checks and warrant checks. Licensee and fingerprints could be scanned to check for warrants or expired visas (using the new VISIT system being deployed at airports)
--bar coded meters could be scanned eliminating the officers need to fill in the location information on a ticket
--GPS could be used to assist officer in the same fashion giving an officer a listing of addresses to choose from.
2) Allow officers the ability to view pictures and or descriptions of perpetrators they should be on the look out for. Combined with the wireless camera's and CCTV camera's in subways stations an other public locations, officers can get a better idea of who and what they are looking for.
Rugged hand held is already available for such purposes.
Police officers at stony brook university were using pda like devices to issue parking tickets back in 1993. Such a measure would cut down the time to write the ticket and the number of mistakes. Not to mention the cost of having a third party company type the information into the departments Computer system. The last I heard a company in India was handling this job
As for cost. Once again the bennifits far outweigh the costs. In fact the NYPD is looking into installing in car computers. The reason the effort was going nowhere is that they had a former cop with no IT experience running the departemtns information technology department. The consultants were eating the NYPD for lunch. Bloomberg and Kelly installed an IT veteran to head the effort.
Maybe we'll be seeing that video soon on rotten.com
HAving audio and video of most interactions with the public will prevent many fradulant brutality claims.
Since the police know they are being taped, it should prevent many real brutality claims also. A win/win situation, but many police officers oppose the use of these devices.
Tom
Plus it removes the embarrassment of a getting tickets dismissed for sloppy handwriting
Disregard Unca Selkirk, I'm a PROFESSIONAL cynic ... kids, do NOT try this at home. :)
The police are part of the government, and collectively they are part of the problem when their behavior violates common sense—a virtue that they, above all, should possess in light of their extraordinary power over the average citizen.
Many laws are capable of being enforced in ridiculous ways that are literally valid, but yet are inconsistent with their intended effect. Few laws are literally enforced all the time. The government has myriad options at their disposal for exercising discretion over enforcement. Discretion—informed by common sense—has always been the rule.
According to the news story, one dispute in this case is whether a warning was, in fact, given. If one was, then the passenger certainly had fair notice. Depending on the time of day and the circumstances at that particular stairway, one might still question whether the officer had chosen a fair target for the exercise of his or her power. If no warning was given, then the officer is a jerk and belongs in another job where s/he will no longer have the power to harass people.
As far as I am concerned the pregnant woman should file a countersuit claiming violation of her rights under the ADA - that is the MTA failed to provide a resting spot for her.
Heck - anyone for a class action ;-) People should fight back with class action suits - make the city pay for this ticket blitz...
And yes - I do blame the cops - in order to meet their QUOTA - they have chosen to enforce some of the most obscure city ordinances that people cannot possibly be expected to be aware of, let alone obey. I'm sure that just by stepping out of your house you are violating any number of obscure ordinances. If the city wants us to obey these rules then I demand that the city mail to each and every citizen a complete copy of the municipal code (translated to simple english and every other language spoken in this city).
If people are concerned that the city is pumping out tickets in order to raise revenue, all you need to do is request a hearing/trial on your violation. Court and overtime costs will exceed the revenue from the ticket in no time. I'd expect that the city would drop the charges on any ticket rather than absorb the cost of a hearing.
Of course, I've only seen speculation that the reason is the city wanting revenue.... If the ticket blitz is because police officers want additional overtime, well then you'll get your hearing.
CG
Arti
If they don't drop the charges, then just withdraw your hearing request and plead guilty. But it one really thinks this is only about revenue, then you'd have to believe they'd drop the charge.
David
I don't think the stairs were any cleaner !
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry but you just know most dudes sitting on stairs are thinking (not this pregnant lady specifically) "Damn right I'm sittin' on these stairs! Whachu lookin' at?? You gonna do somethin' about it???!! Just shuffle your ass around me motherf****r cause I ain't moving s**t for your a**!!!"
Unless all of us get some balls to do something like push the a**hole out of the way or yell at him to move, I'm glad the cops are rousting them. Stairways are not seats. And once in a while I do manage to "accidently" kick the bastard as I'm using the stairs. The nerve of `em to sit there!! Really makes me want to bust their heads with Brooklyns' favorite weapon of choice, a baseball bat, sometimes. Especially on crowded platforms.
Nah chewing gum will be the next infraction in the subway :-\.
(Set to music)
Everybody's doin' it, doin' it, doin' in
Pickin' their nose and chewin' it, chewin' it
I guess the skells were making more cash that way than with their usual practice of rummaging through garbage cans for returnables.
That old law was probably passed because of the ease of stealing building supplies from construction sites (with a horse and wagon), so only those selling or actually building would be able to transport the materials.
Tom
As for the Milk Crate incident, I read a few days latter that the location of where the ticket was written was the scene of gun violence and drug dealing. There was two major incidents in the past month.
The only thing a cop hates mote then writing tickets is firing his wepon at another human being. If you listen to the media, every cop out there is gung ho to go fire his wepon or brat upon every person he see's.
I honesty do not know why the NYPD is still using paper summons. The state public safety police when I was at stony brook University back in 1993 were using PDA's with small printers attached. They used them for issuing parking tickets by scanning the reistration. With todays small powerful PDA's most common offenses could be programed in. In addtion pictures of suspects,if available could be transmitted and displayed, warrents could be checked by scanning licence plates or even using a person fingerprint on scene. Really powerful stuff
The NYPD is far from a well run organization but to say that it is handing out frivilous tickets in the thousands is crazy. Thier are dozens of major grade one traffic violations I see here in sheepshead bay each and every day. U-turns on busy narrow roads such as sheepsheadbay road and voorhees ave. The funny part is thier is a beet cop who can always be found sitting in the back of Del -Mar Pizza. For a guy whwo is walking around all day he is terribly overweight. HUM?
Would you please preview your postings and maybe do a spell check?
It needs a proff reed. Nothing ewe pointed two wood bee found buy spill chicks. :-)
Tom
I do wonder if he writes in the same style when he is at work.
I'm sitting on my milk crate awaiting your reply...
Does that mean it is illegal for me to take my purchases home from HOME DEPOT without a permit?? Home Depot should be warning their customers and posting signs if this is the case.
One of the hundred of laws on the book that are so outdated that they should be removed
Why are they not removed?
The reason is simple. Lawyers often use such obscure statues to get clients off and they want them in the law for that reason
It is outrageous that it is still on the books considering the number of people who handle their own minor home improvement and repair projects - myself included...
-Robert King
There's actually another law (possibly several) on the books saying that this kind of streetcar can't be run in Toronto. However, they had it in the city and actually did run it around downtown under its own power for the TTC's 80th Anniversary but not before Ray Corley* drove down to the carhouse and howled at everybody about how they couldn't run 327 on the street. He was ignored and 327 ran without incident - with a police escort no less and they still didn't get a ticket...
*Ray Corley is an interesting character. He's a retired TTC electrical engineer who worked on the designs for various vehicles. A couple of years ago, he was retained as a consultant by the TTC to advise whether or not they should restore 2766, which is the last Peter Witt car that they have. He doesn't like the idea of the TTC having a running Peter Witt or a running anything older than the PCCs for some reason, so his report cited all kinds of reasons why they shouldn't resotre it and finished off by saying that it should be given to Halton instead since they already have a fleet of Witt cars.
-Robert King
I never gave a DAMN about trolleys ... UNTIL Branford. Suddenly, I LIKE them again. When I was a kid, too young to note the difference, the buses took over in the Bronx ... now that I've HAD the difference, *ANY* trolley is a treat ... but the PCC's, as important as they are, were what buses tried to be ... gimme the old woodies ANY day!
Hope you didn't hit the third rail ;-)
Considering that the transit system "belongs" to all of us that's like saying "Once I went to the end of your living room and urinated on the floor." Thank you for adding to the eau de piss background scent.
He'd be okay. He could not pay up, go home and I don't think even NYPD would bother to take out extradition proceedings for someone falling asleep on a train.
I said before "Mother Nature must be a Rail Fan and dose not want to see the L line change in this way."
Robert
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
See the story of a lifelong dream to reconnect the Westbound L line from Sutter Ave to Broadway Junction, as R42 and R143 take on the villian Mother Nature and her efforts to thwart the planned destruction of the Snediker el.
"Brooklyn Historic Trolley" and "Brooklyn City Trolley Corp." ??
Thanks,
bob d.
New York State Department of State
Division of Corporations, State Records,
and Uniform Commercial Code
41 State Street
Albany, NY 12231-0001
Corporations - General Information: (518) 473-2492
Fax: (518) 474-1418
State Records: (518) 474-4770
Uniform Commercial Code: (518) 474-5418
Fax: (518) 474-4478
http://wdb.dos.state.ny.us/corp_public/corp_wdb.corp_search_inputs.show
Unfortunately, when I searched on both names, it came up empty. There are quite a few entries under "trolley", but none that match the two names you gave.
Chip
If you are BHRA, Brooklyn Historic Railway Assoc. and that other group is BCSC, Brooklyn City Streetcar Co., then who is Brooklyn Historic Trolley or Brooklyn City Trolley Corp. ?
The refusal to fund the SST in the US was a major turning point in the era of "if we can build it, we must."
Now it seems that the Concorde, too, is coming to end, and southeast Queens will be a bit quieter.
Concorde Prepares for Last Flight.
---Chapter 11 Choo choo
#3 West End Jeff
The Boeing SST wasn't built because the government wouldn't fund it. They knew the market wouldn't support it.
The future of supersonic flight lies with vehicles which travel above the atmosphere, thus negating the sonic boom dilema.
Its routes included not only US-Europe, but also such runs as London-Bahrain, and I believe there was also a service to Singapore (with refueling stop in the Middle East.
It is likely the Boeing 2707, cancelled in 1971, would have encountered similar difficulty, although there were aspects of Boeing's design that were better than Concorde's (but Concorde's team wins the prize because they actually built and flew it in service).
The Tupolev-144 was an abject failure; despite major Russian technical achievements, the airliner could not "supercruise," that is, its afterburners remained lit the entire flight. Afterburner use makes an airplane use up to three times the usual fuel consumption (you're literally dumping kerosene into the exhaust plume).
What does this say about lessons for inter-city rail? It says that David Gunn is right. Marginal improvements that get trains up to 120 miles per hour (100 including stops) are more likely to turn around rail that high-tech high-cost solutions like Magnalev and TGV. One 9/11 type accident on one of those would kill it off.
For trips of 300 miles and less, 100 to 120 miles per hour, with safety, consistency, value pricing, and the comfort inherent in rail is enough. More speed is less important than fewer stops, and thus the need for more frequent service, local and express.
For trips beyond 300 miles, all but railfans will prefer an airplane, and you are into tourist "landcruise" territory.
I think that's too low. If you have frequent rail service with 100 mph average speeds including stops, I'll bet it would be competitive with air for distances in the 500-750 mile range.
I think that's too low. If you have frequent rail service with 100 mph average speeds including stops, I'll bet it would be competitive with air for distances in the 500-750 mile range.
This has not been shown to be true. A 500-mile trip at 100mph is 5 hours on the train, not counting travel time to/from the stations at either end (i.e., it's at least a 6-hour trip for most people). There aren't enough travelers who will accept that in lieu of air travel to make long-haul rail profitable in the USA.
By the way, to set the record straight, 9/11, the sour economy, and the Paris accident only accelerated Concorde's demise. The fleet was approaching the end of its engineering life, and even without these events would have been retired within the next 5-10 years or so.
That is a ridiculous time estimate. Particularly on shuttle flights. Last May I flew from Oakland to Burbank with one hour flight time, and I arrived at the terminal without a ticket approximately 15 minutes before flight time. That was a 375 mile trip in about 75 minutes. High speed rail is not going to match that performance. High speed rail is time competitive at distances below 200 miles, and the increased comfort raises the competitive range to a maximum of 300 miles.
>>> On Amtrak you can relax on your nice big seat, look out the window, play Railroad Tycoon on your laptop and eat the 7 course lunch you brought with you on your non-size-restricted carry on bag. <<<
That's fine for someone on vacation, or a college student going home for the holidays, but a business traveler who just left his power breakfast to get to the manufacturing plant in another state to see what the production problem is and then wants to have dinner with one of the firms biggest customers in a third city is not going to appreciate the view out the window.
Tom
But he/she will appreciate the unrestricted use of his/her own laptop, cellphone, Blackberry, and other devices. On short airline flights, your window of opportunity is smaller.
Assuming the train runs on time, high speed rail for business travelers, beats air travel, easily, not even a contest, for journeys up to 300 miles, and can be competitive for somewhat longer distances.
Going off topic again, I have notice here in England that I see a disproportionate number of lawyers working on trains (their briefs are fairly distinctive !?) and I have wondered why. My guess is that (a) they prefer the train because of the ability to read the papers on their way to court, which they couldn't do if driving; and (b) courthouses tend to be in city centres, within walking distance of the train station, while they are not near airports, and may have areas of badly congested traffic around them.
Or judging from the old TV series, "Rumpole of the Bailey" they cannot afford an automobile.
Seriously, in 1978, I visited a Barrister in chambers in the Middle Temple during the winter. There was a single bare bulb hanging from the ceiling between two desks and an electric fire in the fireplace. He was wearing an overcoat, so I apologized if I was keeping him from going somewhere, but he said he wasn't going out, but wearing the coat to stay warm in the office. He mentioned that the government payments for his work were not very generous.
Tom
:0)
and (c) they'll get paid expenses for spending £125 (or whatever it costs now) on a 1st Class Birmingham to London Return.
The lawyers I see aren't in first class - I certainly can't afford to ride in first class for my daily commute!
Who can? Answer: Dr Bowching - and we, the public, pay for his free pass!
Yours was a special case because it was a shuttle flight. Cutting things so close wasn't a major risk because if you had missed the first shuttle flight you'd just get the next one in an hour or so. It's not as if you had reservations for a specific flight and had to make that one. In addition, it probably helped that OAK and BUR are relatively uncrowded airports with shorter lines for security and such.
We should recall that shuttle flights are still subject to delays. While many do take off on time, I've hasd the experience of being on them when we're 19 out of 20 for takeoff. Shuttle or no, we're waiting. Wait long enough, and we lose our place in line to go back and top off the fuel tanks again (this has happened to me, too, though it is rare).
At La Guardia the problem is made even worse due to the frequent use of only one runway for both takeoff and landing.
Depends if your ticket is non-refundable, and where you are going and coming from.
Manhattan to downtown Chicago on a non-refundable ticket I would leave Manhattan 2.5 hours before the flight, and probably arrive in downtown 1 hour after the flight arrives, for a total of 3.5 hours overhead.
Astoria to suburban Chicago on a refundable ticket where I could just catch the next plane if I miss this one I would leave Astoria 45 minutes before the plane departs and probably have 30 minutes overhead at the far end, for a total of 1.25 hours overhead.
Big difference in overhead for the exact same plane trip.
And both still far faster than train. I remember being frustrated at JFK one evening when I could not get a plane to Miami because of a hurricane there. After waiting four hours, I tried looking for alternate transportation. After checking train, bus and car rental, I sat back down because there was no viable alternative. Then I waited another eight hours, and still got to my destination far faster than any alternative.
Tom
And both still far faster than train.
This thread was discussing some hopeful future day when trains average 100 mph or more. The plane might still have an advantage on an NY to Chicago trip, but not necessarily NY to Cleveland or Detroit.
The point under discussion was that trains don't have to go 300 mph to compete with planes. If they average 100 or 120 mph they can make serious inroads.
For trains to average 100-120 mph, they need to have top speeds in excess of 200 mph if there will be intermediate stops. And at an average speed of 120 mph, 300 miles (not 400-500) is still the maximum effective distance for competition. Just as you cannot get passengers to fly from New York to Cleveland on a propeller driven aircraft, you could not get them to travel that distance on a train with an average speed of 120 mph.
Tom
It depends on how close together the stops are and how many you allow. Run properly, Acela could average 100 mph on the Northeast Corridor. Consider why: 1) Top speed is 150 mph, and with the necessary infrastructure repairs there are many sections of the NEC that could support such a speed. The original Metroliner averaged 75 mph when the top speed was only 110. 2) Acela can and does hit curves at 100+ mph currently (as high as 110 mph), whereas the Metroliner had to slow to 75 mph. This increases maximum sustained speed compared to conventional trains.
Finish fixing Connecticut's catenary, remove the speed restrictions, raise the allowed speed on the NEC south of NY to 150 (they were testing at 140 and allowing 135 already), and some Acela runs can do 100 mph, or very close to it, even with stops. The schedule is the last to be tweaked: An Acela run which stops in Philly, Wilmington and Baltimore but skips Metropark and Trenton is a candidate.
King's X 1500
York (a) 1645
York (d) 1646
Newcastle (a) 1738
Newcastle (d) 1740
Berwick 1823
Edinburgh (a) 1907
(continues to Glasgow Central)
is the one I reckon you're referring to. What distances are York and Newcastle from King's X (I don't have the numbers for that line)? Therefore, which bit is the fast bit - my guess is that it gets slower as it goes North, but it would be interesting to see if that has any basis in reality.
No, I got there in time to try to locate the people who were supposed to pick me up at the airport 12 hours earlier.
Tom
Including stops, the Penn Central MU Metroliner service averaged 75 mph (110 mph in the straightaway). Amtrak's pulled trains averaged about the same, with top speed 125mph but slow orders and track problems etc. slowing things at certain points. Acela is capable of averaging 100 but Amtrak has to finish the necessary infrastructure improvements.
My preference on that kind of length of journey would be to go to the Gare d'Austerlitz at about 9 or 10 pm and get on a Sleeper train. It saves on a night's accomodation whilst making the time differential not matter - indeed, I'd much rather be woken at 7 am on a train than be on a plane that lands at 3 am. The only irritating thing about the sleepers from Paris is that you can only get as far as Latour-Carol on the sleeper train and then in the morning chane onto a train into Barcelona because of the dumb Spanish gauge.
Therefore the sleeper train from Paris only gets to Latour-Carol.
However, there are some Standard Gauge lines in Spain: the Barcelona Metro (except Line 1 which uses Spanish Gauge), the Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya, and AFAIK the Madrid Metro.
Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat Valenciana are "narrow gauge", but I don't know quite what that is in terms of feet and inches.
The Bilbao Metro uses Metre Gauge (3'3 3/8" or 1000mm).
That view is bolstered by the reporting that the Concorde crash in Paris mortally wounded the plane, even though it was brought back for a while with safety improvements. They're saying the plane would have died of its own expense anyone, but the crash killed the technological euphoria and hastened the thinking of the plane's obsolesence.
Blimps and dirigibles had a terrible safety record, but it took the drama of the Hindenburg to break the industry.
Oh, the humanity!
-Robert King
Thus, the "accident" (some believe it was sabotage) in Lakewood in 1937.
Hydrogen weighs 1/29th as much as air. Helium weighs 4/29 as much.
Therefore a given volume of Helium provides 25/28th the buoyancy (negative perceived weight if you attached a container of it to a scale) of the same volume of Hydrogen.
Therefore you need 28/25 times as much volume of gas to lift the same weight with Helium as with Hydrogen. Since the skin of the dirigible is light, the extra volume doesn't require much extra skin weight. So the difference is not a big deal.
It is a big enough deal that the US Navy designed their airships with non-rigid gas bags (hence "blimp" rather than "dirigible"). That saved a lot of weight.
The U.S. Navy did have four rigid airships. Three of them were Zeppelins. Prior to WWII, Goodyear was in partnership with Zeppelin, and the airship division was known as Goodyear/Zeppelin Airship. The U.S. dirigibles were designed to use helium, not hydrogen.
Tom
Therefore a given volume of Helium provides 25/28th the buoyancy (negative perceived weight if you attached a container of it to a scale) of the same volume of Hydrogen. <<<
Is this the new math I never learned in school? It appears from your figures that helium is four times as heavy as hydrogen. It seems to me that a given volume of hydrogen would have four times the lifting capacity of the same volume of helium, and therefore a helium bag would have to be four times as large to lift a given gross weight. Please explain my error.
Tom
The buoyancy per unit volume is the difference between the density of the gas being used and air.
Density of a gas is proprotional to its molecular weight. Hydrogen has molecular weight of 2 (not 1 as I claimed previously; an H molecule has 2 atoms, not 1), while air has molecular weight of 29 (mixture of Oxygen which is 32 and Nitrogen which is 28). The difference between the 2 and the 29 is the amount of lift the gas provides. A particular volume that contains 29 grams of air (about 25 liters) contains only 2 grams of H2. Therefore, that volume of gas has a lift or buoyancy equivalent to 27 grams of weight.*
That same volume contains 4 grams of Helium (He molecules are single atoms), and so provides a buoyancy of 29-4 = 25 grams weight if filled with Helium.
So a particular volume, if filled with Helium, has 25/27ths the buoyancy as if filled with Hyrdogen.
* Grams are actually a unit of mass, not weight, so when I use the unscientific term "27 grams of weight" I mean the weight on earth of an object whose mass is 27 grams.
You make it sound like a political decision not to sell helium to Germany. Helium was extracted from natural gas from wells in Texas and Oklahoma. Other nations had none. The process was first developed in 1917. At that time natural gas was still considered mainly a by-product of petroleum wells rather than an important fuel in its own right.
The U.S. Navy had an extensive lighter than air program in the ‘20s and ‘30s since that was considered the best way to project long range air power over the oceans. (Some dirigibles even carried airplanes as an airborne aircraft carrier.) Because of the U.S. Navy's interest in lighter than air flight, helium was declared a strategic material, and all available supplies were reserved for the Navy. The U.S. would not sell large quantities of helium to anyone, not just Germany. Germany was the only country using commercial dirigibles in the late '30s, so they were most affected by the embargo, but it was not directed at them. Great Britain had tried commercial dirigibles using hydrogen, but quit after the R101 crashed and burned in France on a test flight to India in 1930.
Also, the lifting properties for hydrogen and helium are different, and an airship is designed for the lifting gas to be used. The Hindenburg was designed to use hydrogen, and therefore would not have been able to use helium as a lifting gas.
Tom
Not to burst your balloon but
What about the R-38, Akron, Macon, Shenandoah and Los Angeles?
Rail travel dosen't have a distance limit, but a TIME limit. Rail is a valid option for trips up to 6 hours where air is a direct option and 8 where air is not convienent. Rail is also vaild for any trip that includes up to 8 hours of night travel time in which one can sleep. Basically you are looking at any trip that covers 6-8 hours in daylight or a trip that run about 14 hours overnight with an early morning wakeup arrival.
You also forget that a train can serve overlapping markets. While one might believe that a train from NY to Chicago takes too long, it is perfectly acceptable for the NY to Pittburgh market and the Pittsburgh to Chicago market which it also serves.
The problem is that a bedroom on Amtrak can be more expensive than a hotel room.
Especially with the way the roads seem to get worse after Leeds! At least the M1 now reaches the A1, avoiding that madness on the M18/A1M.
Despite my being a railfan, my mode of choice is to fly.
Going to Scotland from anywhere vaguely South in England is probably one of two instances where domestic flights are competitive in the UK (the other being the Channel Islands). The problem is that Edinburgh Airport is a total pain in being right next to a railway, but having no station.
I came across a real joke of a flight advertised in the South Wales Evening Post last time I was in Swansea: Swansea to London City. It probably takes longer to get from Swansea to Swansea Airport than the train takes to Paddington!
the train line north of Edinburgh to Aberdeen is not a high speed line.
You think that bit's bad? Try Aberdeen to Inverness! (Or best of all, that first train on a Sunday favourite: Edinburgh to Inverness via Aberdeen.)
People forget that, at one time, fatal rail accidents were quite common. A lot of the safety features that we now take for granted (such as signalling) were developed as a result of such accidents. But that was so long ago that we pretend the railroads have always been safe.
The reason railroads survived as a form of transportation is that they were simply too compelling not to survive. To put it differently, the effort to make them safe was justified—and rail travel is now far safer than many other modes of transport that we happily accept, such as cars.
Similarly, the Titanic disaster—in which far more people perished than could travel on a whole fleet of Concordes—did not kill the passenger ship industry. It merely prompted safety reforms. Travel by ship remained indispensable.
As I noted in a prior post, the Concorde was already doomed prior to the Paris accident, because it was not economically viable. The accident merely accelerated a demise that was foreordained.
A route to the Middle East, namely Bahrain would be a minimum 3150 miles, direct London-Manama, but since this is during the Cold War it would be unlikely that the Warsaw Pact countries that lie along that route (Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania and Bulgaria) would be keen to a Nato member's plane cruising over their territory at mach 1+. It would most likely be better to curve away from those countries, actually aiming for Egypt, cruising over Switzerland, down the west coast of the Adriatic Sea, out over the Mediterranean, to a curve east at a point roughly southwest of Cairo, from there straight across the Red Sea and the 'empty quarter' of Saudi Arabia (is that the northern part, or just anywhere where there are very few people?), to Manama. This route costs it 330 miles, placing the distance at 3480 miles, and hopefully the somewhat large overwater and over-desert sections would allow it to build up some speed, although from the southern tip of Italy to London would be a subsonic crawl. Now, Bahrain - Singapore is 3940 miles, as close to impossible as you can get, the plane would flame out on approach, at best. Take off would take you right over the Strait of Hormuz, never a safe place, as the Vincennes incident highlighted, also you'd have to get the Indians to allow supersonic overflights, or else you'd have to slow down, costing time and fuel. You could round south of Sri Lanka, but that makes it 4150 miles, well outside the realm of the Concorde, maybe not the 2707, which was to be larger and longer ranged, but certainly the Concorde would never be able to make it.
I always liked the 2707, I'd like to see a current design utilizing the technology from the B-1B and F-14 planes, and the F-22's F120 supercruise turbofan engines, along with all the composite materials that we've developed today. I'd even had hopes that the Concorde would trade it's noisy, dirty fuel sucking Olympus turbojets in for a set of F120s, maybe allowing some longer routes.
Now the fastest purely civilian plane (ie never owned by a government or military) is the Cessna Citation X, with the Boeing 747 not too far behind. It may be the russians, in the guise of Suhkoi, who worked with NASA and the Tu-144 group on the study for the replacement of Concorde who end up with the next mach busting civil jet. A private jet designed to appeal to those for whom time really is more valuable than money, it uses fuel guzzling Klimov RD33 engines straight out of the MiG-29, and must have the afterburners on for all the flight, just like the Tu-144!
I'm rooting for Boeing, hopefully once they get the 7E7 cranked out of Paine Field they can get down to the real design work for the Sonic Cruiser, it was never really dropped, it just was a press release marking the beginning of the design phase, usually those never make the press, but Boeing needed something to handle AirTaxi's A3XX garbage.
Time to root for Suhkoi, the X-43 and Sonic Cruiser!
That was more than enough to attract a lot of passengers - but not at $5,000 per ticket one way.
At $500 per ticket, the Concorde would have been packed and there would have been a book-length waiting list to get aboard. But the airplane wasn't efficient enough for that.
Yugoslavia was never a member of the Warsaw Pact.
At the very least they were a client state, and at most they'd be an effective way to close the adriatic and bottle up the italian fleet stationed on the east side of the penninsula. It could basically be assumed that they would not exactly allow NATO troops to land and start a ground offensive into Romania and the Ukraine.
But it's kind of a moot point, since looking more closely at Streets and Trips, I can see that the direct route wouldn't even really enter into Yugoslavia. It would skirt the border up by where the borders of Hungary and Romania come together, really only flying through the neighboring countries. However I'm sure that Romania and Hungary would raise enough of a hew and cry to persuade the Concorde operators to change the route. If that didn't work, both they and Yugoslavia had excellent Anti-Aircraft networks furnished by the Soviets, the Concorde flew almost the same profile as our fighter-bombers in Vietnam and we all know how WELL that worked!
BTW, the London-Bahrain route was real, and the Concorde did serve it. Call British Airways if you like.
The Concorde operated profitably? That is not what I heard. Very creative accounting was used to show some sort of profit, although both the French and British kept it gong for reasons of "national prestige" rather than profit. Neither wanted to be the first to give up on supersonic transport, but both were happy to blame 9/11 as an excuse to quit.
Tom
#3 West End Jeff
Interesting point. with the Space Shuttle fleet aging and the broad support for NASA across the political spectrum, The Boeing Aerospace Plane will probably be built as a replacement for the Shuttle. This spacecraft could certainly provide the technical basis for a orbital airliner which could travel at least 17,000 MPH.
-Robert King
There is no way in heck those tiles were original, Columbia, as well as the other two older shuttles (ie not Endevour) have been massively refitted at least once in their careers. This is nearly the same thing as a GOH for a subway car, EVERYTHING is stripped, engines are completely disassembled, cockpits are completely updated, computers are changed out, and for a short time there is nothing there but the original Rockwell airframe.
The tiles used today aren't even the same tiles used some 20 years ago, those had adhesion problems. The new ones are lighter and do their jobs better. I had a chance to hold both of them (there also was a shortlived third tile, but it just had the improved adhesion properties) in a materials engineering introductory course at Drexel (blech, too much chemistry!). The older tile was somewhat gritty on the broken end, while the new tile kept totally together on the very edge, no silica on the hand after you rubbed the rough, broken edge.
More likely than not it's a stupid thing with ice forming in the outer foam of the External Tank, then breaking off the piece with it's weight and shattering on the wing, a place of crucial importance on reentry, cause that's probably among the hottest spots on the shuttle. All it'd take was a misalignment of a few millimeters and the forces wouldn't work right, a tile would get torn off, and a plasma blowtorch would shoot straight into the shuttle's wing, chopping it off. I'm pretty sure this is what NASA has pretty much figured out, there was a piece on the news today involving the foam and tiles, but I didn't listen too closely.
While the materials have gotten better, the Shuttle still suffers from problems like tiles falling off at every launch, and the limitations inherent when you're riding on two candles you can't shut off (the original Shuttle design specifed a vehicle using only liquid-fueled rocket engines which could be turned on and off). And of course those tiles are put on by hand, one piece at a time.
Time for a new spaceship, I think.
Every now and then the laws of physics get in the way of a good idea. The lift/drag ratio is higher for a given shape object at supersonic speeds than at subsonic. So to lift the same weight and move it through the air requires more fuel. However efficient a supersonic plane ever becomes, it'll be a lot less efficient than a subsonic plane of the same capacity.
Otherwise, I obviously agree with your post.
It is a shame that so many of the "thinking big" projects of the 1960's are meeting their demise without replacement.
We all have unfulfilled dreams. I always wanted to take a trip on a Pan Am Clipper but never will.
Tom
But I already rode them when they were being flown by United and Lake Central (into the mid ‘60s) Airlines.
One that I missed was this Ford Tri Motor which regularly flew the 17 miles from Sandusky to Put-in-Bay until 1977, and again for a short time in the ‘80s. It was an interesting airline. If they couldn't see the flag flying on the flagpole at their destination island, they did not take off. On windy days, flights might be aborted if they could not make reasonable headway over the ground into a headwind.
Tom
Must have been one of the most airworthy planes ever built.
The 8-track tape was actually quite innovative when it was designed. It failed to survive because a markedly better idea came along rather quickly. It was thus a transitional product.
The Concorde was not technologically obsolete from the get-go. It was, in fact, state-of-the-art. However, it was not economically sustainable as a passenger aircraft. The fact that many places wouldn't allow it to land (due to the high noise) was a killer. Had it been usable on more routes, more Concordes would have been built, and the unit cost would have gone way down.
And for all that, Concorde was profitable for many years. But with the fleet aging and no more planes in the pipeline, its days were numbered.
HHowever, passengers got door to gate limousine service throughout. For $5,000 a ticket and up, that's the least the airlines could do.
Do you have figures for that? It is my understanding that it needed almost 100% of the seats filled to break even. When it was new, the novelty of flying so fast kept the seats full, but the time saving is not enough to justify the price premium on a regular basis.
Tom
The NY Times covered it a few months back. The article should be in their archives.
Not true. The service actually made a modest profit until 2001.
"The refusal to fund the SST in the US was a major turning point in the era of "if we can build it, we must."
Yes, in regard to supersonic travel. Absolutely true.
"Now it seems that the Concorde, too, is coming to end, and southeast Queens will be a bit quieter. "
You badly overstate the impact of the Concorde on Southeast Queens. While each flight was noisier (mostly due to use of afterburner on takeoff and initial climb) the percentage of flights represented by the Concorde at JFK was tiny. The continued use of 727's, DC-8's, 707 and other, older aircraft is the main source of the noise problem.
The disappearance of the Concorde won't make any appreciable difference. But persuading cargo carriers to replace their airplanes, which fly often at night, with new Stage III aircraft will make a huge difference.
However, Air France and BA bought the last few planes for essentially $1 apiece, as there were no other customers for them. Yes, the service was profitable on a run-rate basis. But if AF & BA had had to pay market value for the planes and amortize the cost, the economics would have been very different.
Hmm, how many Airbus models operating in Europe saw almost as good a deal? :0)
I've had a problem tracking down specific numbers, but the general information seems to say that it only made its modest profit during the '90s, out of a three-decade run. And even that "profit" was an operating profit only which didn't account for the massive investment of the British and French governments.
90 seats at $6,000 per seat one way is $540,000 gross per flight. A US twin engine jet fighter costs about $5,000 per hour to operate. If you quadruple that to $20,000 per hour, then the Concorde cost maybe $70-80,000 on that one way run.
I think you can see how it made money. Those seats were filled in the 90's without a problem.
Those interested in the Concorde should look at this fan site for many details. It points out that the fare structure is the First Class fare + 20%, and a flight makes an operating profit with a 50% passenger load. Many current flights have less than a 50% load due to economic conditions and much discounting of tickets, including free upgrades from regular 1st Class tickets, and charter prices. Over the lifetime of the aircraft it was an economic success, but many consider it an ecological disaster.
Concorde is also given some credit for the success of the Airbus. The design team that was organized to design the Concorde was available at the end of the project and provided much of the talent pool used to design the Airbus reducing the cost of recruiting the necessary aeronautical talent to design the Airbus.
Be sure to check the webmaster's description of his fan trip on the Concorde.
Tom
Only in its small niche. Make 150 airplanes and you'd be flying with a lot of empty seats.
" but many consider it an ecological disaster. "
A lot of uninformed people. There weren't enough Concordes to make any kind of impact, and the studies which purported to show a problem were based on the assumption that there would be thousands of SSTs crisscrossing the skies all hours of the day and night. That was never going to happen.
Shouldn't this all be the other way around?
Peace,
ANDEE
And such lousey advice. A few three ways with the appropriate third person would take care of the problem. :-)
Tom
Can you imagine the R32 running on the IRT? Or is that even possible?
The R32 and R38 sign system does allow for any letter A-Z and number between 0-9. Also has a blnk, a test (It just changes between all visible and blank) and one spot, unlabelled that goes through every possible sign.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I've been meaning to ask you, if the TA forces it B/D flip/flop on all of us, are you going to change your handle to Kool-B??
--Harry
(Q Brightliner)
I am a BLIGHTON BITCH FAN IF YOU SO CALL IT THAT WAY FRED AND I AM PROUD OF THAT! DON'T LIKE IT, TOUGH S***!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
R-32
But I don't see why they couldn't run from WB to Canarsie.
Also, I've noticed in the past that the M train reserved a few r-68 lash-ups - six car trains. I saw them in the Concourse yard. If that's the case occaisionally, I wonder what the 68's can do ( on the eastern division ) that the 44/46's can't? Besides platform length issues ( with the necessary 4 car sets and all ) how can the 68's flex that the 46's can't. Boggles the mind.
R-32
Either you saw R-42's in the yard (not that they're there often) or you saw an out-of-service train arbitrarily carrying M signage.
R-32
For the past several years, all R-68s except the last nine and all R-68As have been permanently coupled into four-car sets. Unless what was described was seen before that happened, it is VERY unlikely that what was thought to have been seen was actually seen.
David
R-32.
R-32.
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
The real reason you can't run an R68 or R68A on the M (or J or L or Z) is because it can't take some of the curves on the line.
"The real reason you can't run an R68 or R68A on the M (or J or L or Z) is because it can't take some of the curves on the line."
That and that the M is not populated.
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Peace
David
D-Types 160 / 555 per unit
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Peace
David
Also: I have Bus Crush/Load Bus Vehicle passenger Capacities & i will post it on BusTalk later.
Purpose, this shows that an B car has slightly higher capacity since it does not have a full width cab at all so the standing loads would be a little higher on a B car as well.
David
Also, what makes a line "the most populated"? If we are talking about the density of the areas a train serves, I could understand, but we are talking about load factors and ridership.
Not that it matters. R-68's can't run on the M, period. They can't fit there. It doesn't matter how crowded the line gets.
The G Line does get crowded during rush hour, but not 24/7.
True, but think of an Eastern Division line like the L which doesn't use 75 footers and is crowded all day long. In fact I have ridden crowded L trains as late as 1:00 AM and it was standing room only between Union Square and Montrose Avenue.
All the more reason to run 75 foot cars there. This is a matter of logic (which the MTA doesn't seem to use). All the Queens Boulevard lines except the E have R46s. The E does not. There are 4 doorways on both an R32 and an R46. If both trains are 600 feet long, the R32 will have 40 doorways (4 x 10) while the R46 will have 32 doorways (4 x 8). The E gets Jamacia's R32s because of the fact it has the highest ridership and they need to get people in and out of the trains as fast as possible to reduce dwell times.
I lack MTA sources but I have reason to believe car assignments are determined on how they can get a line to be all of one car class or as close to it as possible. Also, you should tell us who your MTA sources (or rather NYCT, I doubt the MTA has anything to do with what cars run where) are. They don't seem to know much or think very logically. Finally, I highly doubt "the 75' Cars are put on the most popualted lines because [you] have sources from the MTA".
Even if the M suddenly became the busiest line in the system, it still would not be running 75 foot cars. I just can't physically do it without reconstruction, and it would be a total waste of money to retrofit the M (or the other ED lines).
On a similar note, it would also be very costly to extend platforms on the M. In fact the J and L would also be very expensive. This is because there are so many island platform station on the Eastern Division. Track reallignment would be necessary. Side platform stations are easy to extend, especially on an el, so the Jamaica El portion and much of the L line with side platforms would be relatively inexpensive. But there are A LOT of island platform stations on the ED. On the L there are 8 or 9, on the M there are 6, on the J there are 9 and there are 4 islands on the Nassau subway. That would be a lot of track realignment.
R-32.
In most of those places one 75 foot train would be fine, the problem comes in when two trains would happen to pass each other in opposite directions.
R-32.
R-32.
One thread said that the r-68 'M's were probably rush hour train to Bay Parkway. The West End trains do use the 68's.
R-32.
David
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
What about station platforms?
Jimmy
CRYING FOR CASH.
Jimmy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Car-end doors on the 75's have to be locked due to the potentially deadly shearing effects as the cars go around curves. That risk does not exist with 67's.
Which of course is completely false. The BMT standards and R-110Bs, all 67-foot cars also had locked end doors.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
I think the R160 order gives them their optimum flexibilities give a few base assumptions. (and some of us are good at making base assumptions, eh?)
1) All lines need a full compliment of cars.
2) Some lines have diferent requirements.
-----> True a line that gets hand-me-downs cannot use cars or trains that are too long or too wide.
3) Since the 'hand-me-down' lines *are* getting NEW cars built for them, this is not an issue.
So...
What is best from a maintenance / cost point of view:
Units of two, four or five cars can have shared equipments so that each car does not need to be complete unto itself.
Units of four could/might be units of two back to back, but what with the inner units not having a control cab. A-B:B-A style, or it could be that certain devices (an air compressor for example) might serve all four cars, in which case it must at all times be a whole unit.
Those lines as have ten car trainsets could then be A-B-C-B-A, and who knows about that C car, except what it *could* be a trailer only car. If such a trainset were required reasignment to an 8 car lion, then the "C" car could eaisily be pulled off. It could not go anywhere on its own, but could be spliced into a four car set if that set were to be moved to a 10 car lion.
Or maybe a ten car train could be a A-B-B-B-A arrangement, in which case the middle "B" car is not unique unto itself, but could replace any "B" car in any trainset. Very useful to replace wrecked cars, except but what it would usually be an "A" car that would get wrecked anyway.
Methinks, given the initial cost advantages the proposed arrangements are adequate and flexible, but what somewhat waistful ;) of assets in the sunset years of the sets: A deficit probably recouped by the lower purchase and maintenance costs in their prime years of service.
Bottom Lion: methinks they thunked it out and decided on an optimal configurateion.
Elias
Similarly a 4-car set and an extra car can become a 5-car set.
How's that?
Its not necessarily the fact the cars are longer but the different design.
The B cars do not have cabs so they have additional seating and standing room. Also, less space wasted (total) between cars.
See this post.
Assuming the numbers are (approximately) correct, 10 60-footers can hold between 2300 and 2400 passengers total (440-500 sitting and 1800-1960 standing) while 8 75-footers can only hold between 2040 and 2080 (560-592 sitting and 1480-1488 standing).
And there are other reasons that the 60-footers are preferred on busy lines, like the relative ease of passenger movement both within the car (no passageway-obstructing seats) and between the car and the platform (more doors per train).
BTW, I favor the 60 footers over the 75 footers.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I believe that the R44s were built for the Queens Super Express.
How do you have a digital rollsign ;-)? Not a bad idea on the side signs though however the minutes late and service advisory is a little excess don't ya think.....
#3 West End Jeff
All in all, the flat look of the 1950's/early 1960's car classes is not something I feel any great desire to return to.
:-) Andrew
Outside of ADA considerations (slightly wider doors, wheelchair areas) and digital sign modifications, there's really nothing keeping the MTA from ordering a whole fleet of B Division cars that looked like stainless steel versions of the Arnines, let alone the R-10s or even the R-32/38s. But while it would make a lot of railfans happy, the MTA brass probably wouldn't want to gamble on a retro railcar design.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-Stef
25 WF R-33
12 WH WF R-36
176 GE WF R-36=213 Total Redbirds
85 unitized R-62A
105 single R-62A=190 Total R-62As
Info courtesy of two guys in the "Pool Hall."
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I strongly believe that the best R36 GE cars be saved as a legacy to the Redbirds and the last non-stainless cars in the system.
Those cars should be the "best"-least rust, wear, rot, leaks, bondo,
etc.
Anyone have a partial list of which R36 cars are the "best"?
Very hard to tell these days what you can and can't do on the subway.
I *KNEW* Dave Dinkins PERSONALLY. I *worked* for Dave Dinkins at WRVR/"The Apollo" ... the man was honest as the day is long. Unfortunately, people take advantage of the sincere and humble. If anyone is to blame for the "Dinkins administration," that rests SQUARLEY on the B cups of Judy Hope and the other Cuomocraps who shoved "you appoint or else" morons down Dave's throat. :(
ANY mayor (like RUDY) can be popular when the city's awash in MONEY. The REAL mettle of a politician is how they slice the balogna when they AIN'T got the bucks. Rudy was a republican. So's Bloomie. Hmmm.
That all said, the REASON why I said what I said previously is that I ain't GOT "extra money" for "selective enforcement" ... if I gotta cut a $200 fine, please let me know BEFORE I come to the city PRECISELY what the rules are FOR EVERY SITUATION, or I'll pass. I'm a law-abiding hick. Up here, the rules are written in GRANITE. Those who violate them are found DEAD, and dragged across the threshhold BEFORE the citizen calls the sheriff to claim the remains.
If she went to one of those plastic surgeons whose ads you occasionally see on the subway, those cups might be D's today.
Dave tried to be a nice guy and he got clobbered for it. He had the bad luck to be in office during the Crown Heights riots-- an incident he did not cause-- and Rudy beat him over the head with it come election time. But now look. We're sufferin' through Bloomberg's Land of Fork It Over, and the insanity promises to get worse before it gets better. What REALLY drives me nuts, again, is the fact that city officials, including the mayor, do not read HISTORY.
Closing firehouses, slapping the citizenry with inane summonses, and cutting other city services...(Just try calling for 53W1 when you need an ambulance...it's GONE) didn't work in 1975. It won't work today.
Cushioning, most likely.
Also, on weekends, do the R40 Slants from the Diamond Q line transfer over to the N? I noticed all N trains I saw (there were more than 10) were R40 Slants.
Is the R40M the Slants or the R40? What is the difference between the two?
Yes, correct.
Also, on weekends, do the R40 Slants from the Diamond Q line transfer over to the N? I noticed all N trains I saw (there were more than 10) were R40 Slants.
The N and Q diamond use the same rolling stock although a R68 or R68A may pop up on the N at times. And on weekends the N is all R40/40M.
Is the R40M the Slants or the R40? What is the difference between the two?
R40-4150-4449
R40M-4450-4549
The R40 is the slant, when the MTA didn't like the slant design the car builder decided to make 100 'rounded' R40's better known as the R40M then led to the R42 order.
It occurred to me that apart from BART, the Red Line is the only heavy-rail implementation west of the Mississippi. Every new system in the west has been light-rail, which I find sterile and boring.
I wonder where and when we might see any new heavy rail systems coming into existence. Despite my sentimental preference, I do have to ask what are the operational advantages of heavy rail over light rail?
Hey so what ultimately happened to the "Orange Line?" Wasn't that to be a heavy rail line that would go all the way west on Wilshire? I haven't lived in L.A. since 1992, when there was a fuss over the dangers from the methane in the La Brea tar pits area.
I'm sure it's possible to build a subway with speeds up to 120 mph, but the fastest subway I know of is BART, with a max speed of 80 mph.
IIRC, the "Orange line" is now the Gold Line that is close to opening. I believe that Orange County got the name change.
Then the Red Line ended up costing $3 billion (that's B-as-in-boy, BILLION) dollars for five stations, and much of the rest of the vision fell away in response to such ignominy.
I still think the existing Red Line is gorgeous nonetheless.
(also, there are stretches of the Ravenswood line in Chicago that are at-grade. The third rail is of course absent from street intersections)
John
I would say yes. AAMOF, been there, done that.
John
Are you saying they are going to sell the stuff?
- PATH re-railed the tunnel with 115 pound rail, not the 100 pound NYCS rail used on the rest of its system because the NYCS rail is only rolled once a year for the NYCS and actually costs more than the 115 pound.
- PATH retained its uniquely designed thrid rail that was made specifically for the close confined of the tubes back in 1908
- PATH went to a concrete direct fixation underlayment because the old balast and tie system (aside from being more maintainence intensive than concrete) used special ties with rounded ends to fit the tube.
- PATH was planning a 12-year project to re-habilitate the downtown tubes working 3-5 hours a day overnight. When 9/11 shutdown the tunnels PATH simply turned to its already completed 12-year plan and implemented it all at once. The downtown tubes should be good for another 100 years.
PATH really deserves kudos for good planning and rational decision making. PATH is right up there with PATCO for one of the highest quality transit systems in the nation. I think that the relitive political independence of Port Authorities have allowed them to do the right thing instead of having to cave into political pressure and the inefficiencies generated thereforth.
It also helped that PATH had ample federal relief funds available for the WTC work.
Mike didn't mention where all this neat information came from that he got on Wednesday night, probably assuming lack of interest or off-topicality.
Bill Vigrass presented the program at the West Jersey Chapter, NRHS, Wednesday evening. Bill is a transit professional, with credentials from (among others) Shaker Heights and PATCO (general manager, retired). He is now a project manager with the rail/transit/construction firm that has the contract for the current PATCO study of extending transit into Gloucester County, NJ.
Bill's firm was contracted by PATH to present evidence to justify PATH's insurance claim for rebuilding after 9-11. Bill and a partner walked through the tube from Exchange Place to Ground Zero in March 2002 documenting the extent of the damage. Bill showed slides that he took on this trip. It was a fascinating presentation with many interesting tidbits, frequently included as asides, such as the pneumatic operations that are the subject of this thread.
I'm surprised - weren't tubes still flooded then?
No. When the concrete dam was installed inside the tube, holes were constructed at the bottom to accommodate pipes to eventually pump out the water. When the fire dept stopped pumping water into ground zero and the water level stopped rising, it was realized that the "bathtub" wasn't breached, and the water was pumped out.
IIRC, March 21 was the date of the expedition.
R-32
There are two models of mainline pneumatic switch, one is the A-5, the other the A-10. The A-5 has a single air cylinder and both pushes and pulls the rodding inside the switch casing. Here is a picture of the previous CP value with its A-5 switch when in service.
The A-10 is a new version and is the one prefered by transit systems. It has two cylinders driving working in opposite directions a rack and pinion system. Both the A-5 and A-10 can throw in about .5 to 1 second with the A-10 slightly faster. The A-10 is much smaller and has a very low profile which transit systems liked it for so long. Here is a photo containing an A-10 on the MFL, they have since been replaced with GRS electric model 5A's.
1. Please explain the abbrevations: 'MFL' and "CP value".
2. Which rapid transit system is that? Judging by the strange roofline and wide track gauge, that this is Philly.
3. Lastly, the second picture is where? There's no third rail, there seems to be catenary, so it's probably not rapid transit. Just wondering.
R-32.
MFL = Market-Frankford (Subway-) Elevated
The photo was the loop at 69th Street Terminal
The last photo was taken at CP-JERSEY on the Conrail Delair branch in the summer of 2001. The switch unit located there has since been replaced with the electric unit shown below in this Nov 2002 photo.
More precisely, July 2, 2001; my 60th birthday.
You got that right!
By the way, eat your heart out! did you see my cab ride post?
But MTA management and its contractors deserve kudos too - the rebuild of the Greenwich St IRT was a first class job, done on time and below allocated budget.
And a more mundane project is now approaching completion (the Manny B) and NYCDOT has done a good job of that too.
I found a neat website with a list of preserved Sao Paulo (Brazil) streetcars. Interestingly, most streetcars preserved in Brazil seem to be in city parks - much like steam engines here in the US. Anyway, included in this roster are four Third Avenue "Huffliner" Peter Witt cars. Their Cia. Municipal de Transportes Coletivos numbers are 1779, 1789, 1791 and 1799, but I would really love to know what their TARS numbers were (and, for that matter, what years each were built). Can anyone help? More information is here.
Thanks!
Frank Hicks
I'm not a Third Avenue expert, but to the best of my knowledge the
Center Exit, Peter Witt cars were built in 1938.
8-) ~ Sparky
Forty cars of the 626 series went to Vienna in 1949, of which seven [?] survive today.
These were front entrance\rear exit cars built in 1939. Cars of the 551-625, Peter Witt design front entrance\center exit and only operated on the B-Broaway Line in Manhattan ONLY went to Brazil and India.
Per Traction Fan: >>>"According to Vince Seyfried's book "Third Ave Rwy System Roster of Equipment 1853-1953" Huffliners 601 thru 625 were sold to Companhia Municipal do Coletinos, Sao Paulo, Brazil on Feb 28, 1947."<<<
Others may have gone to other Brazilian Cities a\o IIRC to Bombay,
India. And Third Avenue Car bodies, also served as "Lunch Rooms during
the construction of the UN on First Avenue in New York City.
Other's were scrapped and burned in Mount Vernon.
8:) ~ Sparky
Steve Loitsch
If your thinking of the same person, I'm thinking of this weekend,
I already emailed a copy of the query. See yaw on the weekend at
Shoreline. >>GG<<
BTW, I thought this handle & email address were defunct?
8-) ~ Sparky
Steve
8-) ~ Sparky
40 of the "standard" door cars went ot Vienna, with a fairly large number of survivors. I've heard the number may be greater than a half dozen cars (!)
I have not heard of any survivors of the "standard" door cars that went to Bombay, India. These were narrowed by about a foot, and simplified greatly as time went along. They last ran in 1964. They also pulled trailers. Check "Buses, Trolleys & Trams" p. 97. I'll check for tramfan sites to see if they can tell anything further.
I'm not entirely sure where in Sao Paulo the Museu dos Transportes Publicos is; I haven't been able to find a website for it, however the site from which I got this info did have an address.
I know of six TARS cars that went to Vienna that have been saved, and it's quite likely that I'm missing at least one or two. I have no idea about Bombay cars; are there even any trolley museums in India?
Right now my list of surviving TARS cars stands at 21.
Frank Hicks
I was on way home from work today where I got on Colorado 470 highway going eastbound (south) I wanted to get his attention when I passed him but decided not to because at this section of C470 between I-70 and U.S. 285, sometimes cars braked at last minute and I wouldn't have time to respond!
Steve, I doubt you'll remember a green Ford Ranger with camper passing by you on far left lane while you were in middle lane just before Morrison exit at around 3:45pm! Unfortunately I wish I have subway-related personalized license plate!
Cheers!
Michael Calcagno
I'll do that next time I see your Jeep :-)
Cheers,
Michael Calcagno
Anyway, recently the city forcibly re-opened the 500 block of Chestnut sending the Dept of the Interrior scurring off to complain to the Department of Internal Homeland Security. However the NKVD DHS refused to issue a ruling and said that it was entirely a local matter. So, the Street Administration was able to stand up for people's daily activities and not bow down to baseless fear.
What is perhaps unreasonable or excessive is the flight of people from New York City. That exists, but has been very limited. I know some people who are being driven out by high housing prices and unemployment, but few just one who has fled. She left a job that had been in the World Trade Center after half her co-workers were killed; she happened to be home that day. Otherwise, people have stayed put.
Hopefully a more awake United States will avoid an attack on the scale of 9/11. It cannot, however, prevent an attack on the scale of Tim McVeigh, or the 1993 WTC bombing. Those bombings were difficult only in that the perpetrators tried to get away. If one is willing to go up with the truck, a truck bomb is unstoppable.
It is reasonable, therefore, to pedestrianize streets adjacent to certain key landmarks, though perhaps unreasonable to screen pedestrians. A person bomb could be deadly, but not that deadly, a truck bomb could cause a disaster.
If the threat of a motor vehicle bomb increases the area accessible primarily to pedestrians arriving by mass transit, this is something transit advocates should support. I look forward to the Broad Street Park, with outdoor seating and restaurants, accessible only to VIP limos with special permission (big toll) and, at night, carefully screened trucks making deliveries.
It's a good idea, but for the wrong reasons. As I've said ad nauseum, I don't believe there is a real terrorist threat any more. But pedestrian-only areas in lower Manhattan make a lot of sense. However, I would not make an exception for VIP limos, no matter how high the tolls. Let the Alpha Males drag their suit-covered anuses onto the subway with the rest of us (ick!) Common People.
True, but they are harder to pull off. Try going to a rural farm store nowadays and asking to buy a ton of ammonia based fertilizer and see how far you get.
I didn't think our 1/9 Cortlandt St. Tunnel was related to DoI.
Thanks for the light.
Story in Philly Inquirer.
Click Here For Locations
Your source says so.
BigDig made a case of reminding us VIVIDLY that Photogrrrr was not permitted
youknowwhere... so karma made my keyboard wanna remind BigDig,
that same applies for his Shore Line East rendevouz. :)
Just a Courtesy Service, brah!
Funny how one minute we're upsetting the collective SubTALK applecart
(causing mad frenzy) and the next, we're seeking a fine dining venue.
Cryptic? Me?
Nah... Two others among us OWN the cryptic farm.
Line out.
& Good lookin' out, Mike! :)
End communication.
Thanks dude! :)
Ever get off at 231 and walk it, Piggo? You'll prolly beat the
train to the 238 and avoid waiting in the conga line for your stoppe.
What has this to do with the actual trains, may I ask...??
Anyway, some stupid-ass mother was letting her two small children run around everywhere. They walk up to the edge of the platform and start walking odwn the platform along the very edge. I see at the end of the platform the signal is flashing, which means a train is coming. Me and this lady standing next to me look at each other in horror. We had no idea where their mother was. I told the kids in Spanish (since they were Hispanic) to get the f**k away from the edge to no avail. Finally their mother came and they ran to her as the train was coming into the station.
Has anyone seen something like this, and did it scare the shit out of you?
I was waiting for a PATCO train at Woodcrest, a three tracked, two island platformed station. It was bitterly cold yet I was still waiting outside for the train. PATCO was just starting a project to improve the lighting at the station, and two workers were marking the support beams for conduits. An Eastbound approached the other platform, and pulled up to stop right on the markers, the backdoors opened, and out shot a kid who couldn't have been more than 5. He just went running across the platform, jumping up and down about something, his mother kept trying to grab him, to little avail, he just kept yelling and running away from her.
One time he was squealing in delight and looking back over his shoulder as his mother grabbed and missed when he went right off the platform. He's incredibly lucky, he went right down and just laid there crying, the third rail is on the westbound platform, and that center track only sees like a dozen trains at most per day. However, the most impressive thing was the speed with which the one PATCO worker moved to get the kid out of the trackbed, he took practically the same leap as the kid, scooped him up in his arms, and within 15 seconds of the kid having left the platform he was back up in his mother's arms. The mother just seemed to be overjoyed to have her son back, and the three of them left the platform, the PATCO worker saying something about a First Aid kit for the kid's scrapes.
I would have liked to have stuck around to see how it all turned out, but I was already late for a 10am class, and the PA had just announced the westbound approaching. Wish I could remember the date, it was in Febuary, a tuesday or thursday, but it was the middle of the marking period, when all days blur together anyway.
or...
Mierda! Muevese de alli este momento o si no te mata el tren!
(Get the fuqq away from there otherwise the train will kill u)
and...
Que pendeja deja sus hijos sueltos donde hay trenes?? Mierda!
(What kind of (rhymes with *witch) leaves children loose where there
are trains?? Shyt!)..
Heh. Me and my boy Winky once almost bit the dust many moons ago. We decided to cross Jericho Turnpike using the LIRR Huntington line overpass near Syosset. La De Da we started walking across. After a few seconds we did start to walk a little faster. Finally we were over the street proper and jumped onto the embankment. Not more than a second or two after we were on the embankment then ZZOOOOMMMm!!! comes an southbound train barreling down the tracks. Missed us by a frickin' hair, and we couldn't hear it from a distance since there's a curve north of the trestle and it's an electric line.
That train woulda knocked our asses down to Hicksville. Never did something like that again....
IN THE PERIOD while the mezzanine crossover was being built
a razzy (stoned out) college gal was on the UPTOWN side of the
platforms and decided she needed to get DOWNTOWN... she went
upstairs to find NO TRANSFER...
returned to the UPTOWN platform paced back and forth a few times...
After an UPTOWN 3 leaves the station, she jumps down onto the tracks
and CROSSED the UPTOWN EXP track... look ma! no difficulties!... She
stopped to stand between clearance pillars....
STEPPED ON THIRD RAIL PROTECTION BOARD...
(at this second, THE BUZZ-BUZZ-BUZZer indicating an INCOMING
DOWNTOWN EXPRESS went off)..
she froze cold while (STILL) STANDING ON THE PROTECTION BOARD...
...looked both ways...
STEPPED DOWN onto the outer SB rail... gingerly stepping over the
roadbed.. then STEPPING ON the nearest-to-platform rail.....
just as the armadillo headlights illuminated the first incoming
pillar...
she pulled herself up to the DOWNTOWN platform HALFWAY..
DOWNTOWN EXP Armadillo face is now visible at the 8th car position...
she's still hanging there teeter-tottering 50/50 on the platform
and HALF hanging off... decides to ROLL OVER ONTO THE PLATFORM
(lack of upper body strength, boiz!!)...........and her sandals CLEAR the platform edge
A HALF BREATH BEFORE the armadillo comes rolling past her at the 5th car mark!!!!!!!!!
She stands up... wipes her palms clean... and asks "Umm, Is this DOWNTOWN?"
TRUE
-STORY.
©2002 Stone Cold Productions.
Here she was crossing at the speed of any given McDonald's drive-thru
during lunch...
Stuff Journalism teaches yeh. Thx :)
His injury claim was brain damage, which I think in his case was a *PRE-EXISTING CONDITION*.
Copyright cuz it would have made for a fine WWF segment where
they tease action and nuisance, but manage to pull away clean
at the last few frames of the show..
I cannot see why the City or the NYCTA should have to pay for such personal irresponsibility (in many of these incidents). As a matter of fact, it seems to me that the riders (and or NYCTA) should sue these ***** people for the delays that they have caused to the system and its passengers.
If it was in L.A. with the minimum five minute headways at rush hours, you did not have much to worry about.
Tom
Ahhh, but don't forget the main rule of railroad tracks: A TRAIN COULD COME AT ANY TIME FROM ANY DIRECTION! Good logic to live by.
Read the piece of my post again. I said Jamaica STATION , not Jamaica Center, meaning the LIRR Jamaica station, which I said I was headed for.
I never figured out what the noise was, I didn't stick around either to find out. There was no panic at the Jamaica station, so obviously it was just an over-reaction down at the J platform.
--Mark
I saw two a$$holes do that once a long time ago on the M between Forest Avenue and Fresh Pond road. These idiots were just hanging off the train as it traveled along the el. I saw them from the ground, I was not on the subway at the time. It was a long time ago as I think the trains were R30's.
That is not subway surfing. Subway surfing is riding standing up on the top of a car.
Tom
Ye Gods! That's almost as long as Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyllllantysiliogogoch station!!
1) "Next stop free popcorn."
2) "This ride comes with free popcorn."
They are only good at the theatres at 34th Stree.
Good hunting!
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
robert
In general, yes. But what is so special about this one spot at Bowling Green that so many cards have accumulated there? I'll just have to go down there and see this for myself.
Why do I have this feeling other Loew's theatres will appear on more cards making this an expanded collectible set?
Bill "Newkirk"
A mixed feeling. I guess. I'm not an everyday rider of NYCT, so I have limited opportunities to find these cards. I took a gamble at 34th St-Penn on the 1,2,3,9. Bought a four dollar MC and got one of the Loew's cards. The safety series cards are a real pain. They all look a like from a distance, you never know when you'll find a new one you're missing from your collection. And the safety series cards are so blah and colorless. They could have designed a more attractive farecard.
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
I doubt it. Loew's 34 St hasn't been performing nearly as well as expected, and it frequently has promotions other Loew's theaters don't.
Robert
Vinny: Your honor, this is a picture taken by my fiancee outside the Sack O' Suds. Can we agree on this?
DA Trotter (Lane Smith): Yeah.
Vinny: I'd like to submit this picture of tire tracks as evidence.
Judge (Fred Gwynne): Mr. Trotter?
DA Trotter: No objection, your honor.
Vinny: Ms. Vito, did you take this picture?
Lisa: You know I did.
Vinny: And what is this picture of?
Lisa: You know what it's of.
Vinny: Ms. Vito, it has been argued by me, the defense, that two sets of guys met up at the Sack O' Suds at the same time, driving identical metallic mint green 1964 Buick Skylark convertibles. Now, can you tell us by what you see in this picture if the defense's case holds water. Ms. Vito, please answer the question. Does the defense's case hold water?
Lisa: No! The defense's case is WRONG!
Vinny: Are you SURE?
Lisa: I'm POSITIVE!
Vinny: How could you be so sure?
Lisa: Because there is no way that these tire marks were made by a 64 Buick Skylark. These marks were made by a 1963 Pontiac Tempest!
DA Trotter: Objection, your honor! Can we clarify to the court whether the witness is stating opinion or fact?
Judge: This is your opinion?
Lisa: It's a FACT.
Vinny: I find it hard to believe that this kind of information could be ascertained simply by looking at a picture!
Lisa: Would you like me to explain?
Vinny: I would LOVE to hear this!
Judge: So would I.
Lisa: The car made these two equal-length tire marks had POSITRACTION. Can't make those marks without positraction, which was not available on the 64 Buick Skylark!
Vinny And why not? What is positraction?
Lisa: It's a limited slip differential which distributes power equally to both the right and left tires. The 64 Skylark had a regular differential which, anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, you step on the gas, one tire spins, the other tire does nothin'.
Vinny: Hm. Is that it?
Lisa: No, there's more! You see, when the left tire mark goes up on the curb and the right tire mark stays flat and even, well, the 64 Skylark had a solid rear axle, so when the left tire would go up on the curb, the right tire would tilt out and ride along its edge, but that didn't happen here, the tire mark stayed flat and even- this car had an independent rear suspension. Now, in the 60's, there were only two other cars made in America that had positraction and independent rear suspension, and enough power to make these marks. One was the Corvette, which could NEVER be confused with the Buick Skylark. The other had the same body length, height, width, weight, wheel base and wheel track as the 64 Skylark and that was the 1963 Pontiac Tempest.
Vinny: And because both cars were made by GM, were both cars available in metallic mint green paint?
Lisa: They WERE.
Vinny: Thank you Ms. Vito! No more questions. Thank you very very much. You've been a lovely, lovely witness!
--Mark
Of course not, I google'd it. That is one heck of a funny scene. You have to see it to believe it.
'Nuff said
ZIG
:-) Andrew
Just as "Staten Island Railway" is still legally "Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority."
Peace,
ANDEE
The City of New York itself is a corporation, in addition to being a political entity.
If you remember that a corporation is an artificial person, that is, a discrete legal entity that can act, sign contracts, be sued, etc., this may make more sense.
NYCT -- "New York City Transit Authority d/b/a (or doing business as) New York City Transit"
SIR -- "Staten Island Railroad Transit Operating Authority d/b/a Staten Island Railway"
LIRR -- Still is LIRR anyway you go.
MNRR -- "Metro North Commuter Rail Road d/b/a Metro North Rail Road."
All of these different names exist for law and litigation purposes. I worked for a outside counsel of the SIR and NYCT, and we used the legal operating names (the NYCTA and SIRTOA names) because that's their name as far as the letter of the law is concerned.
That's "Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority" a.k.a. SIRTOA.
Jimmy
MTA Long Island Bus is really the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority.
And for that matter the LIRR has a slightly different name too, The Long Island Rail Road Company.
:-) Andrew
And B&T is really The Triborough Bridge And Tunnel Authority.
:-) Andrew
In many ways the individual states are separete sovereign govenements. hense different licence plates. State's rights was a major issue when the country was formed and still is today.
"we the people in order to form a more perfect union.. provide for a COMMON DEFENSE"
Some functions were turned over to the federal govenments many were reserved for the indivual states
As for the city being a coorpotation. That is true. Ever read the signs of a small town. "Incorporated in 1892" Local maniciplities could file for bankrupsy. Many have.
Many corporate entities remain in existence, especially in the railroad industry, after mergers. This is why, when Penn Central went bankrupt, it was possible for the Providence & Worcester to escape bankruptcy and break away as an independent entity.
1) Mortgage and bond issues. Older borrowings are against the assets and credit of the original entities. If LIRR has a debt, why put the assets of MNRR in jeopardy by a literal merger?
2) Labor agreements. Have people with different labor contracts for the same work working for the same corporation, and you're asking for trouble.
3) Work rules differences.
4) Contractual obligations with long-term suppliers.
5) Ownership of assets. Example: the Brooklyn Line of the Brooklyn & Jamaica is owned by the City of New York but leased to the LIRR. Why? Because over a century ago the Brooklyn & Jamaica was acquired by a subsidiary of the BRT. When the City bought the BMT it bought the LIRR Brooklyn Line at the same time.
6) The sheer legal complication of merging complex legal entities.
7) And yes, the possibility of separability in the future. This has already happened when the MTA took over Republic Field (Airport) in the heyday of Rockefeller empire building. Then they decided it wasn't a good idea. If the airport had simply become an MTA asset, prying it free might not have been an easy task.
ZIG
BOO!! The idea still sucks. At least for the commuter railroads, each entity runs through a different geographical landscape. Show me any areas along the Metro North lines that resemble any areas along the LIRR lines. The idea of congealing both into "MTA Railroad" just make them sound so bland. Until you can easily take a train from Seaford to Scarsdale it seems to make sense to leave them as they are for now. What's the big deal?
I complained, and was told that the page was no longer available (B.S., as I was looking at it at the time) and that my complaint would be forwarded to the appropriate department.
You don't just drop the schedule and not put it up someplace else, say, the subways page.
Do those of you who ride it regularly still find printed TT's at St George?
ZIG
That doesn't mean anything. If they're making a lot of changes, doing track work, or have a situation where the trains have trouble keeping to the schedule, somebody may have decided to take it off the website.
So huge that I wish they hand considered using it as a BRT ROW instead, so that buses from other south shore and mid island routes could have moved onto it.
But the die is cast. Huge up front expenditures and low ridership means that it won't make sense to do anything else but run the line as is for 60-80 years. And don't worry, there is enormous capacity to add more service if warrented.
I know not everyone on this board likes light rail, but consider this little story. In London, the Wimbledon-West Croydon rail line (heavy rail) had a half-hourly service of two-car EMU trains, and lost a lot of money (sounds familiar?). It was converted to light rail, given closer-spaced stations, increased to a 10-minute headway, and extended on-street through the centre of Croydon to the more useful East Croydon station.
And the traffic increase resulting? It is 900% - yep, ten times as many people now use it as before. Food for thought.
Given the budget allocated, that sounded like a reasonable decision. But this line was not a part of the London Underground proper, was it?
If you extend a lightly used rail line to more locations and increase frequency of service, you will see much better ridership. This is regardless of whether it is classified light or heavy rail.
There are places in the NY area where light rail has been put in (HBLR, for instance). That's fine. I could see it working in other areas too. One small example, though not actually carried out, was the trolley in Red Hook.
In subway territory, though, the most effective additional services are going to be more subways, because at-grade light rail isn't practical given the tight space, and would cause NIMBY problems. This is also true in London, in places like your CBD.
No, it wasn't the Underground, proper or improper. It was national rail, formerly British Rail Southern Region, formerly Southern Electric. But then, the SIR isn't the subway, either. My point was that there was a certain similarity in terms of frequency and length of trains, and of loss-making, with the SIR. Of course there are certain dissimilarities too - the Wimbledon-Croydon line isn't on an island, there is direct connection to the Underground (at Wimbledon station) without having to get on a ferry in between, and both Wimbledon and Croydon have direct, frequent and quick train services into central London.
The illegality of PATH sharing with HBLRT is a minor nuisance and could easily be rectified if the idea made sense. The more significant problem is that the two systems are built to completely different technical standards.
A new Hudson tunnel ain't gonna happen, and I don't think there are enough Pax along the SIRT ROW to justify extending over the Bayonne Bridge either.
I believe that Paul's SIRT book pointed out that the ridership fell when buses instituted free transfers.
I grew up on Staten Island. The SIRT from New Dorp to the ferry was 17 minutes. The S103 (now the 78) took over 30 minutes. I can only imagine the bus taking even longer now.
Assuming that with increased ridership, fare control would be installed on the stations (with HEETs and MVMs), Metrocard would provide the ability to transfer from bus to SIRT is again free. If one needs to do a bus-SIRT-bus transfer, the unlimited metrocard takes care of the transfers.
Thoughts?
My understanding is that a connection of the BMT 4th Avenue Line to Staten Island was planned, but Robert Moses put the screws to it, choosing to build the Verrazano Narrows Bridge instead.
There would be a whole host of problems with this. The Verrazano Bridge was not designed for train service. This has come up on other boards, and I believe the grade is too steep. There would also be serious environmental issues with construction and operation. The VZ is a very busy bridge, as it offers the only direct car route from Brooklyn to the mainland without going through Manhattan. You couldn't justify reducing the bridge's capacity for a train route that no one is clamoring for. At this point, extending the R to S.I. isn't even on the MTA's "maybe someday" list of projects.
To say "no feasibility whatsoever" would be extreme, but I can't conceive of it happening.
True, but where the N comes out from the tunnel around 63rd St, you could branch off and climb up over the Gowanus expressway. As you approach the bridge you could climb higher while still over the expressway so that the final ascent on the bridge would be reasonable.
Feasible? Yes.
Likely? No.
There is the Lyon Line C solution - special rolling stock with rack & pinion (which is only engaged on the sections which require it) as well as normal traction.
And the traffic increase resulting? It is 900%
And it still loses money. In fact, even if the trains light rail objects ran at capacity, they'd only just make a profit.
The difficulty with that line (former CMJ and MJW tracks) is that a lot of things happened simultaneously, so attributing a 900% surge in ridership to any one of them is rather difficult. Here is my understanding of the situation:
Conversion to light rail - This should be neutral as really it's to most people a theoretical matter. However, it has some undesirable consequences:
- Through service can no longer run to London Bridge or Victoria, diminishing its usefulness as a commuter line.
- Same platform interchange at Mitcham Junction with the BTH "Portsmouth" line is lost.
- Delays are compounded on the St Helier Loop (SMS) line, as both directions now have to use platform 9 at Wimbledon.
- West Croydon service is also limited by the one terminal platform at that station and the act of vandalism that British Rail committed several years ago on the only other place West Croydon trains can go, the Epsom Downs Branch (demolishing the 9 platform Epsom Downs terminal and replacing it with a single track line back as far as Sutton).
- Incompatibility with any other rolling stock in the Southern Region.
Closer spaced stations - This has of course slowed the line down. Furthermore, the stations were very closely spaced anyway. Wimbledon to Merton Park was a five minute walk. Inserting Dundonald Road in between makes no sense. All the new stations, with the possible exceptions of Therapia Lane and Wandle Park seem to be completely unnecessary and would not have passed any objective test had they not confused the issue with the replacement of real trains with light rail.
Increased frequency - Trebling the frequency would work wonders for any line. I see this as the main thing that was done that could possibly have the 9-fold increase in ridership. Perhaps they should have just thought of running 6tph and forgetting this whole light rail business.
On street running in Croydon Town Centre - This is just asking for service unreliability. Furthermore, West Croydon station is right in the centre of Croydon (okay, if you're going to be pedantic, it's the other side of Station Road).
Connection to East Croydon Station - I see this as a small benefit. Most people boarding at Suburban Stations are heading into London. Both West Croydon and East Croydon have service to both London Bridge and Victoria. The few people going the other way are probably split: from West Croydon you can go to the races, from East Croydon you can go to the beach. The difference between the two is that West Croydon has rather got the shaft in terms of train frequency. If the extra 4tph on CMJ ran to Victoria or London Bridge, it would almost definitely be a different story. However, there will certainly be some people who benefit from a slightly easier transfer when they're going to the seaside, so it will have some effect on ridership.
My conclusion? Definitely the Wimbledon - Mitcham Junction - West Croydon line has seen an improvement, but I do not see that light rail was necessary for this improvement. They could have done a lot better things for Croydon with their money (eg redoubling the Epsom Downs Branch) than stringing up catenary over a 3rd Rail line, building a silly flyover at Mitcham Junction and buying inept rolling stock.
One final thought - maybe people find Southern Region trains confusing.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/sircur.pdf
"The bus was fine all day, then we get to Glen Cove and it breaks down"
First, can anyone confirm that there was such a sign there?
Second, does anyone know what happened to it? Was it stolen or removed by the MTA?
Ray Ray
Uh, right.
The Flushing Line has TRADITIONALLY gotten the newest equipment. This is the first time that it has not.
The NEXT time new equipment will be obtained for the IRT it *Will* be EXCLUSIVELY for the Flushing Line. (MARK MY WORDS, and I'll bet you a box of donuts!)
This is because if the full automation works on the Canarsie, the Flushing is the next place that will get it, because it is a route that does not interchange (in service) with any other line.
Elias
Hmm, donuts... Kripsy Kreme or Dunkin'?
I thought they were going to put CBTC on the 7. Can't do that with R62s, can you? Or is everyone else talking this year while I'm talking 2007?
Or the R62 will be retrofitted with CBTC (yes, it can be done). The MTA will have to decide which is more cost-effective.
What constitutes a "successful" test?
Good question.
At a minimum (grade of D): ability to run as many trains, with the same frequency, and same rate of delays due to signal failure, as currently.
A grade of A, in my opinion, would require high reliability, ability to run 30 tph even with the current stub terminals that don't have tail tracks, cut several minutes off the schedule (I don't know the Brooklyn part of the line well enough to know what's realistic), and do it all while running OPTO in the rush hour.
I would have thought that the contract documents would have contained at least a hint of the answer. Apparently they don't because none of the TA types who monitor my diatribes has been able to supply an answer. :-)
At a minimum (grade of D): ability to run as many trains, with the same frequency, and same rate of delays due to signal failure, as currently.
I think your too much a softie. After ten years of design effort and the expenditure of $138 million, you are willing to accept a system that has 37.5% less capacity than was operated 50 years ago.
I would have flunked them. However, I can't see any way the TA won't be liable for the $138 million, even if they can't operate a measly 15 tph.
Why not?
"Why not?"
I asked first. My question implies that I don't think you can install CBTC software on R62s, and I'm asking if I'm correct. If I knew for sure I'd just have made a declarative statement.
David
Does anyboby know where these tracks come from and go?
Michael
Washington, DC
:-) Andrew
R-32
Actually, I work on the north side of East 132nd Street now. And I've seen freight trains behind the buildings on the south side, abbuting Hells Gate. I suppose theose tracks could go there.
:-) Andrew
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
R-32
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2940958.stm [can't seem to get hyperlink on this]
--Mark
After reading of the demise of MailRail I remembered reading about a similar, but private(?), system in Chicago.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/chicagotunnel/tunnel1.html.
The site finishes with an argument that the Chicago system was ill founded and unsustainable. Sadly I think the same could be just as applicable to MailRail... All the loading and unloading involved with small freight traffic just kills it's economic viability.
It is noticeable when you consider most of the "Alternative use" proposals suggested on the BBC website that they all amount to parcel traffic - Just what has been proven not to be economic! (They just don't make original thought like they used to).
If the East-West Crossrail project does ever happen the old tunnels might be useful for spoil removal and ventilation, but even then only if the main tunnels are bored very close by.
The chances of the East-West Crossrail project happening soon seem pretty slim.
I always think it is sad to see the end of any rail system.
Andrew.
Thanks again,
Glenn
So I don't think this is 155th Street.
I think that the basic question is should we do our duty as a railfan by helping out Amtrak or should we do our duty to our employer by reducing travel expenses? Personally I can't ever stand to pay top $ even if I am getting reembursed, but that's just a sickness of mine.
I know that there are several bussiness travelers on this board and I ask you if you try to get the best deals or just blindly pay full price to help out Amtrak.
Honestly, here's something which can take both ends.
On one hand you can pay full and help out the RR financial situation.
On the other hand you can pay the reduced rate and help out the JOB finances.
As in anything, in order for one to benefit, unfortunately
another must be sacrificed.
Personally, If I was let to PICK OUT my travel means and SELECT my own
fare ticket, (and if I wanted to stick the Boss one) I'd max out my
travel allowance
(for either despising being SENT on the trip-- or simply
to take advantage the fact company is paying!!--)
Under that notion, I'd let myself splurge and do something I wouldn't
NORMALLY do (if out of my own denim pocket).
You can always convince fellow colleagues who may be travelling along with you
on this or other future trips to buy FULL PRICE ticket and start
a pattern for the RR... (if Boss is really a _________ ).
Just don't get too carried away-- then it'll be karma at Xmas Bonus time..
Here's a spot which can go either way, brah..
In order for one to benefit, unfortunately another must sacrifice.
MHO
:)
There is no moral dilemma involved at all. Since it is your employer's money you want to spend, ask your employer if he wants you to get the best deal or help out Amtrak by paying a higher fare. If you already know the answer without asking, then you know what to do.
OTOH, if you want to steal your employer's money to help Amtrak, and you are a great admirer of Robin Hood, then there should be no moral dilemma (for you) there either.
Tom
I didn't say it was. Possibly Greyhound, and surely hitchhiking or riding a bicycle would be a cheaper way for them to send you on your trip, but there is no reason for you to travel that way. I only suggested that if you did not know if they would like Amtrak to be the beneficiary of your largesse at their expense, you should ask. When someone gives you money to spend on their behalf, there is a fiduciary duty to spend it as they wish you to spend it. That should have been taught in Ethics 101 in the freshman year (unless you were a business major). :-)
Tom
Please note that you helped Amtrak by choosing Amtrak. You could have flown or taken Greyhound.
You've also helped Amtrak see that discount fares attract passengers.
What's important is the elasticity. For each percent you lower prices, how much do sales go up.
If elasticity is less than 1.0, it's not worth lowering prices. If it's greater than 1.0, it is worthwhile.
CG
I believe it's the sole remnant of the Kings Park hospital spur.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't blame him one bit. I would feel the same way if I were waiting at Times Square for a train to Astoria and all the trains were bound for Flushing. :-)
Tom
Post about 76th Street all you want. This board would be boring without the occasional joke, whether it be about 76th Street or some other subject that has been beaten to death.
This sounds good, please tell more.
1. Is it nighttime?
2. Is he wearing a cape?
3. Can you see his reflection in a mirror?
Consider keeping some wolfbane in your cab.
Manhattan Transfer?
Manhattan Transfer?
Manhattan Junction was the name of Broadway Junction before the Dual Contract rebuild.
Manhattan Transfer was in Jersey between the H&M and PRR.
Manhattan Transfer was in Jersey between the H&M and PRR.
Manhattan Transfer was the point where steam was changed to DD-1 electric for the trip to Pennsylvania Station. The H&M just happened to stop there.
Oddball Manhattan Transfer note: The station was accessable only by rail - no public access was provided. Empoyees got there by train.
Oddly, NJT's Newark yard is built on the site of Manhattan Transfer.
And last, but not least, Manhattan Transfer is the name of a cool jazz vocal group.
Manhattan Transfer was the point where steam was changed to DD-1 electric for the trip to Pennsylvania Station. The H&M just happened to stop there.
What did I say that was wrong? Manhattan Transfer was the same-platform transfer station between the H&M and PRR. As there was no street access, the H&M-PRR transfer was the only purpose of the station so far as ordinary passengers were concerned. The PRR also switched from steam to electric at this point, but there was no need of a named, platformed, station for that purpose.
You mean 18th Street and Fourth Avenue.
Where you wanna go? Hatboro? West Chester? Pottstown? Quakertown?
"Center City Connector tunnel, what's that?"
"Market East? Never heard of it,"
"No, theres no line to the Airport, you're nuts dude."
They're all there, all that's missing is an R number for the routes to oblivion. And you can get there too, provided you don't want to use SEPTA Regional Rail.
I have seen people stop and study these maps, so far I've found 4, all in Suburban or City Hall stations. I'm wondering how many of these people have no clue that what they're looking at is 20 or more years out of date, and trying to plan their trips according to railroad alignments that are long since gone.
I know of at least one, last fall I was walking through a connecting hallway near South Penn Concourse and happened upon two people in Phillies clothing consulting the hugely outdated map there. They had just come from a game at the Vet, and were trying to get to Gwynned Valley on the R5 Lansdale. Earlier they had just caught a train marked 'Center City,' remembered getting off at Suburban Station, but now that they looked at the map they could see that it was impossible to get from Suburban Station to Market East (actually Reading Terminal on the map) by train. I tried to tell them that that map was some 20 year out of date, and, since I was coming from the SEPTA transit museum store with a Northwest Railroad Map from SPV I dropped my book in my backpack and gave them the bag from the SEPTA Store, which features the standard, updated SEPTA regional rail map. They had a pretty good laugh at SEPTic, and I pointed them toward Suburban Station, and warned them to read the sign before following the color, Green can mean either Subway-Surface Trolley or Commuter Rail, depending upon the age of said sign.
I have a rather low resolution picture of one of these maps on my laptop, but Webshots isn't cooperating with my attempts to upload it, and AOL hates my Drexel ftp webspace, so I'll try to get a higher res photo on monday (hopefully with all the names and such this time), and try to post it in my Drexel Webspace for all here to laugh at.
A reasonable mistake. Someone not familiar with railroads might have thought that the LIRR would handle through-ticketing on New Jersey Transit and/or Amtrak.
I think it's a little comical seeing
At-
lan-
tic
on a very thin beam to support the roof on the platform.
It has nothing to do with Atlantic Avenue.
Today, the Jamaica line enters a tunnel after the 121st Street station, this was not always the case.
The Jamaica line was extended from Cypress Hills to 168th Street in 1918, this also entailed the replacement of the original Cypress Hills terminal over Crescent Street just south of Jamaica Avenue with a new station east of there over Jamaica Avenue (the current station).
Service operated to 168th until September 11, 1977 when trains were cut back to Queens Blvd. The Archer Avenue subway had been under construction previously, but the city's fiscal crisis put a stop to the work. Nevertheless, Jamaica Avenue merchants wanted the el gone (most of them went out of business shortly thereafter). Because the Archer subway would not be ready for quite some time, shuttle buses from Queens Blvd replaced the service at the abandoned Sutphin Blvd, 160th Street and 168th Street stations.
In April of 1985 (I do not know the exact date), service was cut back to 121st Street leading to the extension of the shuttle bus and the closure of the Metropolitan Avenue and Queens Blvd stops. This was to allow construction of the ramp into the new subway for which construction had resumed.
On December 11, 1988, the new subway under Archer Avenue, one block south of Jamaica Avenue opened and service was extended there. The E stops on the upper level (it previously ran to 179th Street with the F) and the J/Z on the lower level.
Jamaica-Van Wyck (E only) replaces Metropolitan Avenue and Queens Blvd stops and Sutphin and Jamaica Center/Parsons replace Sutphin Blvd and 160th Street respectively.
Originally supposed to be longer, the upper level was supposed to curve south past Jamaica Center and replace one of the LIRR lines to Springfield Gardens while the lower level was supposed to run to Merrick Blvd (which was to be the replacement of 168th Street) and then continue along 2 dedicated tracks along the LIRR ROW to Hollis. Even though the subway was never brought to Merrick Blvd, the shuttle bus stopped running in 1988. You have to transfer to a regular bus now.
Stansted is a very well-designed airport, which is what Mike meant, I guess. Unfortunately the only direct service to the USA from Stansted was an early cancellation after 9/11.
I'm probably one of the dozen-or-so people who used Continental Airlines' direct service from Newark to Stansted. I believe it was in August 2001. The plane was practically empty—every passenger could have a row to him/herself. But at Stansted we zipped through customs and then had a very pleasant (albeit long) rail journey to Liverpool Street. We were staying near Earl's Court, so it wasn't the most convenient point of arrival, but it was a very happy experience nonetheless. We avoided the usual crowds at Heathrow and Gatwick. I'd do it again, if the service still existed.
The lack of direct rail connections to LGA and JFK is Robert Moses's doing, plain and simple. He built both airports, and there were many who argued that rail connections should be part of the plans. At the time this could have been done quite easily. Highways like the Grand Central and the Van Wyck would only have needed to be 25' wider to accommodate trains. Moses made the monumental miscalculation that the era of rail was over. He also failed to realize that the highways he was building would be overcome with traffic—with no room to expand—within just a few short years of completion.
I had booked on it for my November 2001 trip to NYC. Needless to say, by the time I came, my booking had been transferred to the Gatwick-Newark flight.
However, several of the new low-cost airlines that have transformed air travel within Europe use Stansted, so I use the aiport quite a lot.
Not only the highways, also the airports! On my first-ever visit to the USA in 1968, JFK was totally gridlocked with traffic and it took about half an hour on the inter-terminal bus just to get the half-mile or so from one terminal to the next.
One could argue that an equally monumental miscalucualtion was a failure to realize the era of new highways was over. The Van Wyck is one of the worst choke points in the city, with no parallel alternate route north-south. That wasn't the plan. The Clearview was supposed to be plowed though the neighborhoods in Southeast Queens. Forget the shifting politics and laws; the financial cost of buying and tearing down all those houses had become unsupportable.
If Moses had to account for the real cost of all those highways, they wouldn't have been 25 feet wider, they would have been 25 feet narrower. Rationing by toll would have limited them to buses and time-sensitive, expensive deliveries and the wealthy at peak hours. If highways had to account for their full and cost, the era of rail may not have ended.
While I don't think any transit line could actually get to JFK from midtown in 16 minutes (the LIRR goes from Penn to Sutphin/Archer in 20, the E goes there from Penn in about 45) the Airtrain construction does seem to bear Kaplan out. Most of the VWE south of Kew Gardens is open cut. When Airtrain construction made widening the VWE necessary, no expansion of the cut was made on either side. There was plenty of room for the Airtrain structure and the wider roadway, suggesting that the Van Wyck was originally constructed to accomodate future widening or addition of train tracks. Ol' Bobby Moses (who, ironically never learned to drive but hated transit) must be spinning in his grave at high RPMs!
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
R-32
But isn't there only limited service on the R2 to the full route at Wilmington, DE?
Most R2 trains during the day go to Wilmington, there are a few short turns to Marcus Hook, but the Wilmington trains are definitely the majority. It's Newark and Churchman's Crossing (west of Wilmington) that you'd have problems reaching, the trains to and from those two stations are few and far between.
SEPTA R2 schedule, headed out from Philly
Paul
I read in a local newspaper in Concord NH, that a proposal was in the works to create a commuter line that would start in Boston. The line would travel north along I-93 making stops in Nausha, Manchester and Concord. With the possibility to extend it to the White Mountains. This line is to relief the congestion on I-93 during morning and evening rush hours.
Sorry Peter, I not familiar with that part of NH.
Paul
The city increase is 1/8th of a percent.
Keeping this transit related: ride the NJCL to Long Branch... it's a UEZ... has a nice Harley dealer too, for those who are into such things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...and to make one last feeble attempt to tie this into rapid transit, on the weekends I can almost guarantee you'll be able to see CTA "L" cars running. :-)
Enjoy!
Frank Hicks
Until this board segregates "Trolleys" from SubTalk to TrolleyTalk,
we will talk about Steel Wheeled Vehicles, it ain't like BusTalk.
With apologies to our resident weatherman\bus operator. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
I only went there once while I lived in Chicago, actually Fox River Grove, just a little way to the northeast of Union, IIRC, and mores the pity. I remember that I was a complete idiot while there, I didn't pay any attention to the Electroliner, the Trolley Cars, the L cars or anything, I just wanted to see the locomotives and heavy railroad stuff. I asked somebody who was volunteering with the museum if there was anyway they could get the DD40AX out of the yard it was in (it was the last one on a stub track, there were like 2 or 3 steam locomotives in various states of repair behind it) and run it on the line to union, not the smartest thing I ever came up with.
I guess I'll have to go back there someday soon, now that I have a new-found appreciation for that which makes up probably some 50% of your collection.
BTW: When did the Trolleybus Loop start operating? I don't think I remember it when I was there (probably between '95 and '97).
Anyway, to answer your question about the trolley bus loop: the loop (which is at the east end of the property) was built around 1978. The trolley bus line itself, which is probably a quarter mile long and terminates in a wye at the west end, was built in the mid-1970's. The reason you probably don't remember it is that we only started running trolley buses on any sort of regular basis two years ago. In 1995-97 the trolley bus collection wasn't just mostly static, it was also inaccessible for viewing (a problem partly corrected since with the construction of a display barn).
And, for the sake of trivia, the IRM electric railway collection includes about 130-140 pieces of equipment out of the total of around 410 pieces in the overall collection (the latter number includes buses and trolley buses).
Frank Hicks
I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. Included are 2nd Avenue line, the IND Second System and many other original lines, a few are based on or are variations of proposed lines that railfans on Subtalk have posted in the past in various threads. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
The above listed respondees have already received chapters 1 and 2, and I eagerly await their feedback, as I continue to work on the last part of Chapter 4. There is still time to request your copy, as I would like to share this with as many railfans as possible. Weekly posting of this thread will continue for the remainder of May and through mid-June.
Rembember you can email me privately by clicking on my handle, with your request or to ask questions.
For those who responded, thank you for your interest and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much.
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
What do you think was the most reliable "R" class car? What was the least reliable? By "R" class, I am excluding the various IRT and BRT/BMT cars that were introduced before Unification (like the Lo-V's, WF cars and BMT Standards).
My vote for most reliable: R-32/38 class.
My vote for least reliable: R-44/46 class.
Least reliable: R16, came in as a dud, went out as a dud. Honorable mention: R44 in the summertime.
Each R series has it's own web page. Those web pages frequently incorporate the MDBF - expecially for the newer R series.
#3 West End Jeff
We'll see.
Least reliable: R44
Don't lump the R44 and R46 together. Other than appearance they're completely different subway cars which have taken different paths towards reliability. The R46 started badly but has since proven quite reliable. The R44 started badly and has remained bad.
Least reliable: R11/R34, R15, R16, R27, R30, R38, R44, R68, R142.
50/50 reliable: R1-R9, R10, R12, R14, R38, R40, R46, R68A.
I think that about breaks it down.
Jimmy ;)
Peace,
ANDEE
Least reliable: R11/R34, R15, R16, R27, R30, R38, R44, R68, R142.
50/50 reliable: R1-R9, R10, R12, R14, R40, R46, R68A.
I think that about breaks it down.
Jimmy ;)
Jimmy
Most reliable: R62/ R36WF
Least: R42 (R44 and R40 runner-up)
my list from least reliable to most:
R42
R44
R40
R46
R38
R32
R62A
R68
R68A
R36
R62
Most reliable - the R-32s. Arguably the best-built postwar cars and an odds-on favorite to give 50 years of service.
Least reliable-R16[just horrible], R44[troublesome from day 1]
The R46's have improved dramatically so I wouldn't say they are unreliable.
Both the Los Angeles Tribune and the Baltimore Sun carried articles with a totally negative slant on New Yorks "crackdown".
One of the items mentioned was a storekeeper in Greenwich Village of got a $400.00 ticket for "too many words on the awning" of his small store. Another was a auto owner who got a $5 ticket for the black plastic on his license plate. The ticket cites an "improper display".
Bloomberg gave a lame quote at the end of the article: "Don't throw litter in the streets and you won't have a problem. Don't park illegally and you won't have a problem. But we can't have it both ways. We can't have laws that say 'No Parking Here' and then you complain when we give out tickets."
I'm not sure what exactly the offense was, but it doesn't matter, you shouldn't be messing around with your license plate. There are rules about license plates and they are very clear. How hard is it to just attach it to your car via two screws and then leave it alone!?
The black plastic was the FRAME on his license plate.
Like, the name of dealership where the car was bought.
Think, that's worth a $5 ticket? Think again.
I'll bet it was an aftermarket frame, the type with a slogan or expression, and it covered part of the plate itself, maybe because of how it was installed. In other words, the frame made it difficult to read the vehicle's plate number.
I have not seen any that obscure the number, but quite a few which make it impossible to tell what state the plate is from.
Tom
Mark
Our 1994 Corola has a decal from the dealer we bought it from (new) and they didn't ask us. I didn't want to delay delivery (our old car had died and we're a two car family) so we took it as is.
I've "written in" on every sales contract (for a new or used vehicle) that I've purchased from a dealer in the past 25 years that there will be no dealer advertising - license plate frame, sticker, whatever - on the vehicle unless the dealer is willing to pay an up front fee of $nnnnn (whatever the sales price of the vehicle was) plus an hourly fee of $nnnn ($2500 on the last purchase I made). If the dealer argued with me, I simply tore up the contract and walked out... they got the message (and usually ended up making the sale anyway, after lowering the price by an extra couple of hundred dollars and agreeing to my "no-logo" demands). One dealer inadvertently put their logo on the trunk lid of a new vehicle I had special ordered and then damaged the paint when removing it prior to delivery; they had to repaint the lid before I would accept the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wish we had that law here in New York, and extend it to used cars also. We gives these car dealerships the right to advertise their dealerships on your car ?
Back in the 60's, before they had frames and sticker to show where you bought the car, they had chrome plated white metal plaques that were riveted into your trunk lid. That meant drilling two holes and riviting it to the lid. As the cars aged, rust would form around the plaque because of driiling the holes. This stopped in favor of stickers, plaques made of chrome plated plastic that adhered with tape and now plastic frames.
Still, they should not advertise their car dealership without the owners consent.
Bill "Newkirk"
Simple solution.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good for you ! Unfortunately most people are all excited about buying a new car, they don't know any better. Would you buy a new $250,000 home with a obvious builders plate for all the world to see ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The only builders plate in my house if from a BMT Standard - and yes it is in an obvious location ;-)
If they are illegal then why do dealerships install them - I would take the dealer to small claims court if I got a ticket on the principal of the matter!! Make the dealers pay!!
Read my reply to Mountain Maryland.
I can't explain why, I guess to show others where you bought that snazzy new car. That is a form of advertising.
The answer is a screwdriver. My 2001 S-10 Blazer came with frames and they lasted a couple of days before I removed them. Now if they pasted dealership stickers, I would have screamed !
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes many times I've almost had an acident with an out of state moron doing something stupid (I'm from The state of xx, at least my car is registered there, so I don't need turn signals in NY), and you can't even tell what state it is because the frame is blocking the state.
Yup! If it blocks the name of the state, it is illegal, and they can give you a ticket, and make you remove it at once.
Also some jerks put a special plastic over the plate to reduce visibility and to prevent lasers and such from timinig on it etc.
Of course, out here, 20 miles on a dirt road will obscure the thing just fine, but the don't (so far) make people get out and was their plates.
Elias
You mean like a polarized filter that would blank out any picture taken from a high angle by a red light camera?
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't know if you're a NYC resident or one in the area. But an NYPD PBA ad blitz by President Patrick Lynch states that officers are under pressure to write summonses to bring on revenue to NYC. (That means use NO judgement). That also means go by the book. Still blame them ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No it doesn't. There are plenty of flagrant offenders to find. (I have no idea if the pregnant teenager was flagrant or not.) If I'm out on the streets of Manhattan for an hour I always see at least a dozen flagrant events that deserve a ticket and didn't get one.
All an officer would have to do is walk back and forth across crosswalks with the Walk sign in their favor and then hand out tickets for failure to yield to a pedestrian PLUS reckless driving. The officer probably wouldn't even have to be in plainclothes.
Well, after all, you're upstate, miles and miles away from the confusion. BTW, did the snow finally melt up there ? Heh !
Bill "Newkirk"
A solid month of rain - every day in May (including today) except May Day. June starts tomorrow, three guesses what the forecast is, and my bell crown cap will sport its rain cover.
It didn't rain yesterday until late evening, so the neighborhood was a cacaphony of power mowers.
We haven't been able to wash a streetcar until April, so now it won't stop raining, so guess what's getting grungy.
Baltmore now has two things in common with Seattle - streetcars and rain.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Baltimore got 28 inches dropped on us over two days (two separate, back-to-back storms) and the conditions were exactly right. This was middle February, and the solid month of rain was May.
The entire population is slightly water-logged.
Today we had (in no particular order) clouds, wind, sprinkly rain, sun, a repeat. Finally about 3:00 PM the sky lightened, the clouds parted and we got to see that bright thing in the sky. (Reports are its called the sun.)
The overall temps today usually show up the end of March.
That's because the asshole laws that generate a summons brings money to the city coffers. Why are NYC parkways and expressways rated at 55 MPH have, 50 MPH speed limits ? Because impatient drivers with a lead foot bring in the dough !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not surprised at that at all, I knew it would spread like that eventually :-\. A $5 ticket for a black plastic around the license plate, geez what is this I mean we're about to get hit with at higher sales tax on everything from food to clothing to all items that can be taxed in terms of sales. What's next taxing us on 25 ¢ gum.........
SSHHH ! The City tax goons may be monitoring this board !
Bill "Newkirk"
Remember, during the gravy day in the 90's, nobody even thought of doing this petty bullshit. This will pass when the next economic boom hits (when we elect a democrat to the White House to clean up the horrible mess that GWB and his GOP bitches is making right now! When will that happen, I do not know.)
Some major observations:
- Even the most skillful T/Os can’t bring an express train to a stop in the station in less than 80 seconds after the previous train has started to move. Out of 10 trains, 7 were in a good position to make it into the station quickly, being in the general vicinity of 23rd St when the previous train started to move (3 were half a minute or more further north). Five of the 7 T/Os achieved times of 80 to 87 seconds. Two of the 7 achieved much worse times of 102 and 107 seconds.
- Time spent stopped in the station wasn’t strongly related to platform and train crowding. It was more closely related to arbitrary events.** I don’t see how the average stopped time of 45.7 seconds could have improved by more than a few seconds if crowding had been less.
The observations:
A. Time between trains: length of time since last train started moving till this train comes to a stop (in seconds).
B. Length of time this train is stopped.
C. Comments.
A, B, C
80, 45, no local to feed the express***
85, 58, local came at worst possible moment
102, 36, local to feed the express
107, 29, no local
120, 46, no local, big BMT crowd; express well back of previous train
134, 53, very full local, express well back
87, 33, local
83, 67, no local; C/R was asked a question; door holders
147, 60, local, express well back
86, 30, local
* The 10 seconds of delay before the train doors can open is included in stopping time. The 5 seconds during which the departing train must move extremely slowly contributes to the time between trains.
** Unfavorable arbitrary events included a local pulling in at the worst possible moment (people streaming across the platform just before the C/R might have considered closing the doors), a door holder accommodating passengers coming down the stairs, and a passenger asking a question just as the C/R was ready to close the doors.
*** The platform was much more crowded if a local had come since the last express than if none had.
Noetheless, very nice work and good observations.
However, what did impress me was that no T/O was able to get into the station in under 80 seconds, while 5 out of 7 who were in the right place were able to get there within 80 to 87 seconds. That suggests that 80 (or at best 75) is a real lower bound until the signaling is improved.
The other thing that impressed me was the frequent occurence of arbitrary events (3 out of 10 trains) that added 15-30 seconds to dwell time without any unusual crowding being present.
I wonder what the distribution and frequency of such events (and sub-categories they form) would be over a week's time.
So do I. I wish I had the time to observe and find out, but I don't.
And in fact the SDEIS for the 2nd Ave subway says the actual max is 25 tph.
My observations really only say that the max is at most 28 tph, not that 28 tph is achievable. What prevented a rate of 28 tph during those 25 minutes were (a) a few gaps where the next train wasn't in position to roll into 14th as the previous one was leaving and (b) two T/Os who didn't aggressively move into 14th even though they were in position.
Your methodology has not sought to isolate any of these factors. What you have done is measure the entire system and concluded that they are operating at a maximum of 28 tph. Your conclusion points to only one factor: signal system.
However, even this is flawed.
First, the minimum time between trains that you measured was 80 seconds. One would expect that the signal system would have permitted any train to follow within 80 seconds: had a train been there; had the train's acceleration and braking been stronger or had the T/O been more agressive. So, in trying to isolate the signal system constraints you should have used 80 seconds for the signal system's contribution to maximum service levels. Any additional headway time should have been ascribed to operations for not having a train in the correct position or to maintenance for permitting a train to operate with inferior acceleration.
Second, there is dwell time. Dwell time is composed of 3 components: the time there is passenger movement; the time when the doors are open but there is no passenger movement and the time when the doors are closed and the train is not moving. The first component is a limiting factor. The second two components should be used to provide a buffer to account for random variations. You measured 30 seconds as a minimum with a local present for total dwell time. This figure is usually given as the nominal total dwell time for many capacity calculations. You have shown that it is achievable at low service levels. More frequent service should result in less total dwell time by lowering the passenger movement component.
Therefore, with a 30 second dwell time one would expect that the limitation imposed by the signal system should be 80 + 30 = 110 seconds between trains. This is equivalent to 32 tph. Indeed, they used to operate 32 tph on the Lex 50 years ago with the same signal system but with more attention to opeational detail.
I have tried to isolate the signal system's limits on maximum service levels more directly. I've separated your time A into two components: stopping time and acceleration time. The stopping time was the time from when the front of the train passed the back of the platform until the doors opened. The acceleration time was the time from when the train started moving until signals permitted the next train to enter the station without any restriction. This did not eliminate the variability between operators and equipment. Consequently I took 10 readings and used statistical averages. The average stopping and acceleration times, as defined above, were 31 and 49 seconds respectively. The nominal time for both times is usually 30 seconds each. The same times for 86th Street were 24 and 28 seconds.
Therefore, the minumum 80 seconds time that you measured was approximately due entirely to the signal system's constraints. To be sure, I did measure minimums of 29 and 47 seconds for these times for a more rigorous signal system constraint of 76 seconds.
The stopping time is close to the nominal 30 seconds; the acceleration time is not. The average acceleration out of Union Square is 19 seconds longer than the nominal 30 seconds. Nor can all the difference be due to moving platform retraction time, which you measured to be a nominal 5 seconds. One problem is T/O indifference. There is a speed restriction around 1500 feet south of Union Square due to a curve. In order to maximize service levels trains should quickly leave Union Sq. This means that the operators should creep until the moving platforms clear then wrap it up until the train reaches the speed restriction and then slow down. They don't wrap it up (or the trains do not respond). Instead they speed up only to the curve speed restriction after the moving platforms retract. That's the reason for the extra 15 seconds.
This is not to say there are not resonable solutions. There are other stations that have speed restrictions leaving stations that might increase acceleration times to unacceptable levels. This problem has been answered at 125th and 59th Streets by effectively shortening the block length for leaving the leaving the station. The signal that controls access to the platform has 3 aspects instead of the usual red and yellow. The third aspect is a timer set for 20 mph. At 59th St, the average acceleration time to the 20 mph aspect is 25 seconds, whereas the average acceleration time to the yellow aspect is 42 seconds. A similar reduction at Union Square would bring acceleration time close to the nominal 30 seconds.
Of course, this means a change in the current signal system. However, I'd expect that such a change could be implemented for $250K. This would bring the total of braking, acceleration times close to 60 seconds and with a nominal dwell time of 30 seconds shows that 40 tph operation is quite possible. Of course, 40 tph operation requires additional operational details. However, the signal system is not the limitng factor. To paraphrase Shakespeare: the fault dear TA is not in the signals but in yourselves.
But you need to assume SOME variability in the times.
Whatever the minimum resulting time is, it's not realistic to assume that every T/O exactly achieves the minimum. My belief is that 5 of the 7 T/Os I observed tried their best to achieve the minimum, and the results varied from 80 to 87 seconds with a mean of 84. And what do you do about the T/Os who don't try very hard because they worry too much about going into BIE? Discipline them because they took 102 or 107 seconds instead of 80 to 87?
Maybe NYCT needs to negotiate with the union to put in place a rule that only aggressive, particularly skillful T/Os are allowed to pick the southbound Lex in the most critical 90 minutes of the day.
I also think there will be more variability in dwell time than you project. My sample was small, but in 3 out of 10 cases dwell time was seriously increased by events that have nothing to do with crowd levels, and therefore not susceptible to mathematical modeling. Short of making holding a door, or getting stuck in a closing door, a serious criminal offense, I don't think this sizeable variability is going away.
You have the germ of a very good idea here: only the most experienced and skillful T/O's and C/R's, as judged by their train handling skills, should operate trains on the Lex and on Queens Blvd lines, because those lines demand the most skilled crews. Less experienced or lower-rated crews can operate trains on lines where "Top Gun" crews are not crucial. Green crews can pick up experience on those other lines, where the inevitable mistakes (tuition paid to improve performance) will not make as big an impact.
One possible way to entice crews to do the tough services is to pay more money if you work the Lex or QB other ??? than other lines.
It's not entirely impossible. Airline pilots have a union. 747 crews get paid more than 757 crews. That is not solely dependent on seniority, but rather on training.
It wouldn't be impossible to get a differential put in for working the Lex, and the making a crew reach a level of proficiency before earning the right to bid on the line.
However, you appeared to imply that this was the best that could ever be. It certainly is not the best that ever was because reliable documentation exists for superior past performance.
But you need to assume SOME variability in the times.
Whatever the minimum resulting time is, it's not realistic to assume that every T/O exactly achieves the minimum. My belief is that 5 of the 7 T/Os I observed tried their best to achieve the minimum, and the results varied from 80 to 87 seconds with a mean of 84. And what do you do about the T/Os who don't try very hard because they worry too much about going into BIE? Discipline them because they took 102 or 107 seconds instead of 80 to 87?
There has to be some realization on management's part that variablility is the enemy of greater service levels. There are ways to reduce variability. Operator performance can be improved through feedback. This is what the timers in Paris and Moscow provide.
40 tph operation requires that both equipment and operators perform properly. This probably means that releasing cars with non-functioning motors can no longer be tolerated. It may mean more frequent equipment inspections. It also means that schedules must be planned and executed to the second not the nearest half minute. It also means that falsifying ontime logs can no longer be tolerated. In short, it requires a complete mindset change.
I also think there will be more variability in dwell time than you project. My sample was small, but in 3 out of 10 cases dwell time was seriously increased by events that have nothing to do with crowd levels, and therefore not susceptible to mathematical modeling.
You can put anything into a mathematical model. The real question is how well the mathematical describes the "real" world.
Short of making holding a door, or getting stuck in a closing door, a serious criminal offense, I don't think this sizeable variability is going away.
Train identification is a serious problem. Destination signs are frequently contradictory. This impacts dwell time by forcing passengers: to ask what train it is; wait for the conductor make a barely intelligible announcement, etc. Also variability increases with headway. There would be less variability running shorter headways than longer ones, with the same platform queueing.
The first order of business should be to specifiy service levels including service reliability. The TA's response to poor reliability has been to relax the lateness criteria. Such mindsets must change. That's where I'd start disciplinary hearings - TA management whose mindset does not change.
One of the first things David Gunn did when he took over NYCT(A) in 1984 was to order that service be cut to levels that could reasonably be attained, rather than show on paper that more service than was actually operating was being scheduled.
David
You are the first, to my knowledge, to wisen up to that level, to Stephen's chicanery regarding subway service. I had always assumed that Stephen's statements about actual service levels were true. They may not be.
----------
BTW, Stephen, any particular scientific journal I should be looking you up in? I will visit UMKC's engineering library and see if I can find you in their guides to periodic literature.
There were regularly published reports for on time performance, which was defined as reaching the terminal within 3 minutes of the the scheduled arrival time. If one examines those figures one can extrapolate a degree of reliability. These figures were generally well above 90% which makes moot any suggestion that the rush hour schedules were unreliable.
Admittedly, such indirect evidence is not as satisfying something more direct. However, that is all one has to go on for contemporary published data collected by the BOT/TA. Your skepticism of the reliability of those schedules, while healthy, is based on even less documentation.
One of the first things David Gunn did when he took over NYCT(A) in 1984 was to order that service be cut to levels that could reasonably be attained, rather than show on paper that more service than was actually operating was being scheduled.
There was a severe shortage of reliable operating equipment by 1984. Rush hour schedules had been reduced from their 1950's peak levels during the 1970's fiscal crisis. However, the TA did not have enough reliable operating equipment to operate even these reduced service levels. The TA's approach was twofold: to cancel certain trains on a regular basis and to permit an unacceptably large number of trains to break down en route. Mr. Gunn's "service cuts" were based on the availability of reliable equipment. These service cuts were not based on the question of whether or not such service levels could be reliably maintained had the equipment been available.
His skepticism is based on the unreliability of the BOT reports, which is reasonable. If the reports were the gospel you take them to be, David Gunn would not have had to take the action he did. You need to document your confidence adequately - the burden of proof is on you, not him.
In days of yore (pre-computers, that is), the schedules used to have what are called "bangs" on them. That is, two trains were scheduled to be on the same stretch of track at the same time. In practice, whichever train got there first was given clearance to go ahead. Eventually, all trains got through the area, but not necessarily within the time period they were supposed to go through. Nowadays, great pains are taken to ensure that there are no "bangs."
David
Those schedule makers took a different approach to eliminate bangs. They used balanced merges. For example on the 14th St Line there were 24 tph that were composed of 12 tph expresses and 12 tph locals that merged at Myrtle Ave. The expresses were further divided into 6 tph expresses from Lefferts and 6 tph from Canarsie that merged at Atlantic.
This meant that the schedule makers could take shortcuts. They would start at the merge point and work backwards. The result would be either 100% bangs or 0 % bangs. The schedule makers that survived chose the 0% option. Those schedule makers would compensate for differences in demand by varying train lengths.
Today's schedule makers take the opposite approach. The train length is fixed at 600 feet but they use uneven merges. Computers really don't help because number theory dictates that there will be merging confilcts. There are two strategies to avoid this inevitable result: operate with uneven headways or hold trains in stations. Each of these strategies has undesirable consequences.
Nowadays, great pains are taken to ensure that there are no "bangs."
Computers certainly provide the schedule makers with creative ways for hiding bangs. :-)
Consider the 60th St tunnel. The nominal travel time from Queens Plaza to Lex is 5 1/2 minutes and the nominal travel time from Queensboro Plaza to Lex is 4 1/2 minutes. There's an R that is scheduled to leave Queens Plaza at 7:19:00 and there's an N that is scheduled to leave Queensboro Plaza at 7:19:30. The R isn't scheduled to arrive until 7:26:30 or 7 minutes later while the N is schedule to arrive at 7:24:30 for a 5 minute trip.
This might not fit your strict definition of a "bang" because it is not first-in-first-out, however merging confilcts persist despite comptuers. :-)
Thanks for that observation.
However, that doesn't mean that Stephen's ideas for improvement are bad. I hope there are people in NYCT who can appreciate his ideas and figure out to what extent they can be applied to improve service.
I doubt that any of them can. The Lexington Line has never run at 40tph. To believe that it could (aided by the behavioral changes and inexpensive upgrades he proposes), you have to believe one of two things:
1) The actual experts who run the system are too dumb to realize this;
2) They do realize it, but conveniently there is a grand conspiracy to keep them quiet.
Both of these are wildly implausible. If it were common knowledge among transit experts that Stephen's ideas would work, surely one of the public gadflys—such as Alan Hevasi, Mark Green, Betsy Gottbaum, Gene Russianoff, or one of their ilk—would be making it front page news. That's precisely what happened, for instance, when the MTA's financial disclosure was incomplete. That's precisely what happened when the MTA overspent on 2 Broadway. In our participative democracy, profound incompetence (and/or conspiracy) on the scale he imagines cannot endure.
If so dramatic an improvement were so easily achievable, someone with actual transit expertise would say so publicly—and put both his credentials and his analysis in front of the MTA's political opponents. Rest assured, those opponents would be only to happy to expose the MTA's incompetence and/or the "conspiracy" that is alleged to have taken place.
Although Stephen's posts are entertaining and make us think, the final conclusion ultimately is that his math is wrong, his observations are wrong, and he's harboring some kind of irrational animosity towards the real experts that completely overcomes any slight merits his ideas might have.
I can respect people who say things like, "Bring the D back to the Brighton Line," for while such comments are often grounded in emotion, they don't pretend to be anything other than they are. Stephen dresses his arguments in mathematical jargon that pretends to be dispassionate, but is really just a fraud.
Stephen has not produced compelling evidence that his suggestions would allow 40 tph on the Lex. He has however produced reasons to believe that his suggestions would improve train throughput to some unknown degree.
Perhaps if NYCT implements his ideas, and others he hasn't thought about, the Lex can truly support 30 or 32 tph. That would already be worth a lot. And his ideas aren't that expensive to try out, even if they do cost more than $250,000.
There is nothing wrong with Stephen's math. It's quite elegant. But his applications of it are often specious.
If you mean that his arithmetic is correct, I agree—i.e., he's not saying "2 + 2 = 5", or anything like that. When I say his math is wrong, I mean that he's applying it speciously.
Wouldn't that rule go out the window if one or more of those "skillful" T/Os called in sick or took some kind of day off? I don't know how it is at NYCT, but at NJT, the crew dispatchers are desperate for "any qualified bodies" from the extra list to fill vacated jobs. Unless NYCT institutes a separate "skillful" extra list along with a "regular" extra list, I don't know how that above idea could be implemented.
There are many factors that influence service capacity. Some of these are the signal system, train scheduling, dwell time, T/O behavior, C/R behavior, train acceleration, train braking, etc.
Your methodology has not sought to isolate any of these factors.
As far as I can tell from a close reading, Stephen Bauman's hasn't either. Or perhaps more accurately, he has made assumptions about the ability to disaggregate these factors that have no demonstrated correlation to reality. He also assumes a probability distribution that has not been proved to exist.
Of course, this means a change in the current signal system. However, I'd expect that such a change could be implemented for $250K.
Again, there is no evidence for this.
The only Stephen Baumann on the web is a guy who runs a science museum in Philly. I don't think that's him.
Who really is our "Stephen Baumann," anyway?
The only Stephen Baumann on the web is a guy who runs a science museum in Philly. I don't think that's him.
Who really is our "Stephen Baumann," anyway?
That's an interesting comment, considering your prior stance.
Mark
So who is he? Do you know?
You know, I have tried to look up Mr. Baumann's credentials. Nowhere have I found references to engineering publications, IT publications or other materials by him.
The only Stephen Baumann on the web is a guy who runs a science museum in Philly. I don't think that's him.
Who really is our "Stephen Baumann," anyway?
An equally plausible hypothesis is that you have done a very poor search. I tend to believe this hypothesis because you have misspelled my name. :-)
It's always fun to Google people.
So I find two or more ministers of various denominations, a Lutheran bishop, a swimmer in CA, a runner in VA, a professor of Math at U of Wisconsin, an Ocean County NJ police officer, members of several synagogues, a contributor to a social service organization in Santa Monica CA, a 17 year old who's published his genealogy, and of course a contributor to Subtalk.
I could believe the Professor of Math one ;-)
I found only a couple of things under "Peter Rosa" relating to me :( Mostly they were for this college professor in Scotland who's a big deal in the economics field.
I wouldn't say Mr. Bauman doesn't know what he is talking about. I would say, instead, that those who run the system everyday do know what they are talking about. Lots has changed since more TPH were run, including risk tolerance and willingless to rely on fallable humans. We've talked about the need for that third track on the Jamaica. Think we could get away with just putting a track in over a few weeks, going with line of sight operating, and putting in signals later? NOT!
But when validity isn't apparent, one then looks to the speaker's qualifications. For instance, if Michael Jordan were talking about what it takes to win at basketball, I'd be strongly inclined to believe him, even if the validity of his ideas wasn't immediately apparent. Why? Because Michael Jordan has demonstrated qualifications in the subject. Quite simply, he has earned the right to be believed.
In present context, when someone says that the Lexington Avenue Line could run 40tph with changes in T/O and C/O behavior and reasonably inexpensive signal upgrades, and he backs it up with math that does not appear to be correct, it's reasonable to ask: Who is he? Has he done this before?
That's true. I still want to know who you are and what you do.
Absolutely, and that's great. I've learned a lot from his posts, though it's taken work to sift facts from opinions.
What I find irritating is his total certainty that things are exactly as he thinks they are.
I want to know, because he has made references to specific work performed some years ago and I haven't foun him in the scientific literature.
I am waiting to see if he talks to me off-line. If he does, of course, I won't share it here on Subtalk unless he says so.
That's certainly a broad enough qualification. :-)
You're assuming that keying by was an integral part of train operations 50 years ago. It wasn't. You're implying that resetting trip cocks was a common occurance. It wasn't. You're implying that timers reduce tph. They don't.
Your anecdotal evidence is contrary to my own experiences during the 1954-1959 period, when I too regularly rode both the Flushing and E/F lines.
I must confess that I too thought that the motormen passed red signals on their approach to Main St from looking out the front window. However, I'd also occasionally look out the front door during the winter months. I'd see that the aspect had changed just before the train moved from the color of the signal light's glow. Looking out the front window had obscured a clear view of the signal because the motormen pulled even with it. I could not see the aspect change because the train body blocked a view of the signal and the beam.
I have two explanations for today's backups into Main St. First, there tower operators were more attentive back then. Second, the clocks at the Main St and Times Sq dispatchers are not synchronized. The Main St clock is running slow compared to that at Times Sq. The result is that trains arrive at Main St sooner than they leave. It also means that trains at Times leave sooner than arriving trains - meaning that the platform is sometimes empty. There was always a train loading at Times Sq back in the '50s.
The E/F was a different story. I could invariably see a train in Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, Ely, Lex and 5th Ave when the train I was on started to approach. However, that train invariably started to leave as my train got closer to the station. Indeed, the aspect just changed to permit the train to enter the station by the time it arrived.
In any case, the signals control the safety of the system. The signals should not also control train schedules. They don't on manual systems that currently operate 35+ tph. They use schedule timers within each station that are independent of the signal system for that function.
Actually it is not.
"I must confess that I too thought that the motormen passed red signals on their approach to Main St from looking out the front window. However, I'd also occasionally look out the front door during the winter months. I'd see that the aspect had changed just before the train moved from the color of the signal light's glow."
This does not make that the rule. Your observations are too haphazard here and Victor's outline of why these events happen make sense.
"Looking out the front window had obscured a clear view of the signal because the motormen pulled even with it. I could not see the aspect change because the train body blocked a view of the signal and the beam. "
The only thing we can conclude here is that you observed very little at all. If you can produce a motorman from that era who can explain his procedures, then your story would gain credibility. As it stands, you appear to be fabricating.
I just took a look again. There is a 25 mph speed restriction immediately after leaving Union Square, as well as the 20 mph restriction later. There are curves mid-platform (15th St), just after leaving (between 13th and 14th) and after about 1500' (9th St). By the time the rear of the train clears the curve between 13th and 14th, the front is getting close to the speed restriction for the 9th St curve.
Is this first 25 mph restriction necessary for safety? I don't know, though my gut feel is it's an overreaction. But in any case, it's not T/O indifference because they are specifically instructed not to go full speed. It looks more like NYCT fear of litigation to me, a phenomenon that wasn't around as much 30 years ago.
Go back and compare the amount of time a train is stopped at GC or BG vs. Union Square and post those results.
Also compare the s/b to the n/b in terms of delays and dwell time. Congestion on Lexington is not something that only happens in the s/b direction at 14th st.
I'll look up the number of TPH that currently run on Lexington. I did this last pick, and posted those numbers. I'd say 25 TPH is the max Lexington can handle. Even if you can develop a signal system that's better than the current one, there are just too many daily occurances on Lexington that prevent the TA from having more trains on the road.
According to TA personnel who report to this board, the TA thinks it is. It's a convenient bottleneck because it would take multi-millions to repair.
I'll look up the number of TPH that currently run on Lexington. I did this last pick, and posted those numbers. I'd say 25 TPH is the max Lexington can handle. Even if you can develop a signal system that's better than the current one, there are just too many daily occurances on Lexington that prevent the TA from having more trains on the road.
I will agree that, if the TA send out only 25 tph that it is fairly difficult to acieve greater service levels than 25 tph. I have been intrigued by the variability in headway for trains on the Lex because, if the trains ran near identical profiles then 40 tph operation would be possible. I've tried following chasing up the Lex to find the source of the variability. The interlocking at 138th St is certainly a big problem. However, my observations at E 180th St would indicate that major problems when the trains leave the box.
I don't have an obsession with Union Square. It just happens to be a potential bottleneck, and also a place that's convenient for me to observe.
I have never claimed that Union Square is the limiting bottleneck for the Lex. All I said was that, because of the signaling at Union Square, and the frequency of random delaying events, I don't believe more than 28 tph can get through Union Square southbound.
I acknowledge that there may be other more serious bottlenecks. In fact, since the SAS SDEIS says that 29 tph get fed into the system in the morning rush, but only 25 tph make it through GCT, there appears to be a more serious bottleneck north of Union Square.
Perhaps if I had done the same type of observations at GCT or 59th in the AM rush, I would have been able to make a case for a lower maximum number. But I didn't and I haven't.
PS. I do suspect that there is no other station on the 4/5 where it appears that every T/O requires at least 80 seconds to get into the station after the previous train has departed (Stephen's theoretical number for the current signals is 76). GCT, 59th, and 86th probably have lower figures for this parameter, but higher dwell times.
Some trains moved slowly into the station, and you attribute the fast moving by the remainder to the skill of their T/Os. But if any of those slow moving trains were running early, could the T/Os have been right to go slowly and/or linger in the station? Or is the rule to keep moving as fast as possible, regardless of whether you are late or early?
Which raises the question: which strategy would result in the greater throughput: keep as closely as possible to schedule, or keep moving as fast as possible? This question could be tested by simulations. The optimum strategy may not be so simple.
To find out if trains were early or late you would need a timetable, and some way to identify each train with one in the timetable. Otherwise you cannot even tell if they arrived in the right order!
It seems significant that in a sample of ten trains, several were delayed by "unfavorable events", all resulting in the doors not being closed soon enough. Variable numbers of boarding passengers are clearly a big factor.
You observed ten express trains and six locals. This suggests that the Lexington local is running below its capacity in rush hours. If the upper east side is so short of trains, perhaps they should try running more Lexington locals.
No, because the sample size is far too small and the observations occurred on one day.
"If the upper east side is so short of trains, perhaps they should try running more Lexington locals."
Again, you have no data to reach this conclusion.
No, because the sample size is far too small and the observations occurred on one day.
But the SAS SDEIS says the same thing. The Daily News also reported plans by NYCT recently to add more locals by year's end. So the conclusion seems likely to be true even if not supported by the observations.
"If the upper east side is so short of trains, perhaps they should try running more Lexington locals."
Again, you have no data to reach this conclusion.
But if the News is right, NYCT came to the same conclusions. Presumably based on much more data.
You may be right. My main observation was that 5 T/Os were obviously trying hard to get into the station as fast as they were allowed to, and their times were bunched up between 80 and 87 seconds. This leads me to believe that 80 is near the minimum.
It seems significant that in a sample of ten trains, several were delayed by "unfavorable events", all resulting in the doors not being closed soon enough. Variable numbers of boarding passengers are clearly a big factor.
Definitely, but not as big a factor as I would have expected. Random events played as big a role as platform crowding.
I don't know why it took 147 seconds to come. Possibly a little problem at GCT, possibly even because the evening schedule only has 25 tph and its time was not yet due. Perhaps even the previous train was ahead of schedule, and so this one got progressively further behind schedule because of crowding at each station. But yes the 60 seconds to load was because the platform was crowded.
BTW how many 4's and how many 5's came on the express if you took note of that?
Sorry, I didn't take note.
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
David
I'm told that there is another memo floating around that gives the (base order?) of R-160 as 660 cars, The first option order will be 640 cars and the second option order of around 400 cars. If it's more than 400 cars, I was told that the R-44 Staten Island fleet will be renumbered to make room for the R-160 option car numbers.
David
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
You MAY have been correct before but things are subject to change, for example who would of thought the Redbirds would run into 2003, they were supposed to be gone already but the R142's are still being delivered.
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
til next time
When was the last time I was on a R44 with good A/C?
I don't know, MAYBE you can tell us.
Peace,
ANDEE
anyway, the cars with the best AC are the R38/40/42
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
I come from a land down under.....
Traveling in a fried-out combie
On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
She took me in and gave me breakfast
And she said,
"Do you come from a land down under?
Where women glow and men plunder?
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."
Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six foot four and full of muscles
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich
And he said,
"I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."
Lying in a den in Bombay
With a slack jaw, and not much to say
I said to the man, "Are you trying to tempt me
Because I come from the land of plenty?"
And he said,
"Oh! Do you come from a land down under? (oh yeah yeah)
Where women glow and men plunder?
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."
>>The reason I had that attitude is because I don't like WMATA, thats why(Outside of SubTalk)<<
You don't like the Washington Metro or the SubTalk Poster named WMATAGMOAGH?
Good one BTW.
I can concede this to you. The A/C on every single car in New York except the R33 singles is better than that on the London Underground. :-)
wayne
Oh yeah, SEPTA's and PATCO's cars have good air conditioning, blah blah blah...
Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Don't expect anything more than the last OC test. A section of the rules and a question on interpretation plus a few math questions to make sure you know how many cars to bring in on a putin or where you clear a switch.
Going against the outside public is that unless the 20/50 retirement passes there will not be that many TO hired from this list. There are too many people with very low file numbers that have 7+ years to go. The restoration of the MB and CI will also eliminate TO jobs not increase them. They could add tons of new service but don't hold your breath waiting for 179-KingsHwy G service.
I'm wondering if what you're reading isn't the actual school car tests (along with the mighty "signals test") that are administered DURING your training after being appointed. I don't recall any major technical questions on the motorman exam itself ... but then it's been well over 30 years and I might be confusing school car tests (that had to be passed or you were OUT) with the original entry test.
Anyone in TITLE know the score these days?
In light of the current MannyB debates, the lack of a midtown terminal for 6th Avenue trains stands out. When the 6th Avenue Line was extended to 63rd St, there should have been an extra set of tail tracks at 57th St to allow trains to turn there.
Only if you have any type of Unlimited Ride Metrocard, that you can transfer to/from the IRT/BMT lines at Atlantic/Pacific to the G line at Fulton st, a 2 block walk from end to end.
R-32.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I was really thinking of design mistakes in things that got built, not things that failed to be built at all. In failure-to-build, you'd have to include the whole IND Second System, the rest of the Archer Avenue line, and so forth.
I think the construction of the IND was an appropriate replacement for the west side Els. On the east side, the error was one of politics rather than design—the 2nd and 3rd Els went away on the assumption that the SAS would be built, and that didn't happen.
1. The SAS won't get connected to the Concourse Line.
2. If it did, the Concourse Line could handle the trains. Not all SAS trains would go all the way to 295th, and the Concourse is nowhere near capacity.
Elias
Given that money is not unlimited, building one thing is a failure to build another.
Therefore, I now believe the biggest subway design mistake was building the 6th Avenue subway, which closely duplicates the BMT Broadway Line, rather than building an identical line on Second Avenue as the second IND line. Imagine the subway map as it would be today, with all the same connections (save for the crosstown on Houston), but with the 6th Avenue line on Second Avenue.
Had Hylan not been fixated on beating the private companies, and if eventual unification had been assumed, it would have been clear that this was the better choice. In addition to having more service on the east side, 6th Avenue would have been free to extend the PATH train northward, as was proposed at the time.
And ended up, unwittingly, draining more jobs to Jersey City. Accordingly, even though it isn't a subway, I'd nominate not helping the non-Pennsy RRs (Erie, Lackawanna, NJ Central, NYSW etc.) to build their own joint Manhattan terminal. The ARC tunnels would finally address this.
There is pretty good City coverage. But that's only for 8 million out of 20 million in the region, and other hubs are developing because of the poor regional access.
What service advantage would this provide?
Not following you there...how would a crossover there have obviated the need for the shuttle?
-Not installing a ramp between the upper and lower levels of the Archer extension.
If the upper and lower levels were connected, what purpose would it serve?
-Building the IND Concourse line with only three tracks and having it very close to the Jerome Ave El.
Probably the same comment could be made about all of the 3-track lines. I do agree that it was built too close to the Jerome Ave line.
-The present design of the Rogers Junction.
-Not allowing the IND Crosstown access to Manhattan.
On the track map, it looks like switches could be added fairly easily just east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn Station. Could this in fact be done, or is the map deceptive?
A crossover north of Grand St would allow trains to terminate there without wrong railing for a long distance.
"If the upper and lower levels were connected, what purpose would it serve?"
Better operational flexibility.
I believe one set of tracks are rising while the others are falling.
I suggest reading "Urban transportation : home rule and the independent subway system in New York City, 1917-1925" by Joel Fischer. It's a PhD disertation but is very interesting and I beleive debunks the whole John Hylan Myth.
The purpose of the then-Independent subway system was to build subway lines at or near elevated subway lines to foster competition and to (somewhat successfully), kill off the same els. in the long run. Jerome el. is not among the victims of the IND curse.
Cooperation is for losers who can't compete.
Is there a way to get around or is everything held behind the activity?
Thanks,
Chip
I can't see that as a big mistake. The worst result is that Brighton riders will have to get used to a new letter of the alphabet. Right now the north end 6th Ave has far more trains than the south end. Until the 10 V trains that terminate at 2nd Ave go somewhere in Brooklyn and S Brooklyn needs STILL more trains than that, there is no problem.*
Most expensive mistake I see (in addition to the width of the original IRT tunnels): integrating the Lex GCT station into the foundations of high rise buildings. Now there is no way to lengthen the GCT station to 12 cars without spending $1 billion.
* 6th Ave has plenty of flexibility to reallocate trains between local and express tracks, since some of the 63rd St tunnel F trains could run on the 6th Ave express tracks if desired.
I keep reading this here. I don't get it. I don't think that was any part of the original purpose behind building the Crosstown. It was meant to "cross town" across Brooklyn and Queens. You can transfer to Manhattan at both ends, uptown and downtown. Admittedly, it would have been nice if it could have been extended further north and south. When I used to ride it in the `70's and `80s most people from the Broadway stop were going to the Metropolitan Avenue transfer or to Queens Plaza for Manhattan. The southbound side didn't get as busy until you were getting south of Williamsburg.
- The Rockaway line connecting to the Liberty Ave el, not the Queens Blvd IND.
- The Manhattan Bridge.
- Using el car dimensions on the IRT.
- No yard at the end of the Fourth Ave BMT.
- The Franklin Ave shuttle rehab.
- The Williamsburgh Bridge part of Chrystie St.
Should have been built to SI back in 1918. There would be lots of room for train yards in SI ( and they have yards by St. George terminal).
A tunnel to SI should still be built. NYC can have a five borough subway system instead of a four plus one borough system.
1. Rogers junction - enough said
2. Lack of express-local crossovers between Hoyt and Nevins in Brooklyn, which would allow local-express flexibility between the Lex and 7 Ave lines
3. Lack of connectivity of the 7 line to the rest of the system
4. Design of the grade level branching of the Lenox line from the Broadway line, limiting one to expresses and the other to locals
5. The failure to have a common terminal in lower Manhattan for the Lex Ave and 7 Ave locals
It looks like the crossovers are there between Atlantic and Nevins.
3. Lack of connectivity of the 7 line to the rest of the system
As I understand it, that capability existed, and was lost, when the Astoria line was converted from IRT to BMT standards.
4. Design of the grade level branching of the Lenox line from the Broadway line, limiting one to expresses and the other to locals
Can you elaborate? The track map shows switches north of 95th that allow either branch to go local or express.
Even if there were express stations on this line, express service would not be justified.
I think that if Sea Beach had weekday express service and zoning along the line permitted apartment house construction, then there would be apartment house near the express stops just as they are on the Brighton Line. In fact, from Avenue M to Avenue H there are many, many apartment houses within three blocks of the Brighton Line, even between stops as Ave. L and Ave. I. You can see them out the window of the train during the day between those stops. The same could happen along the Sea Beach.
Historically, the BMT Sea Beach line replicated the configuration of an earlier line along the same right-of-way. Back when Coney Island was a far more popular weekend and holiday destination, the Sea Beach express tracks offered a fast ride to the beach during the summer. But Coney Island is not what it used to be, and because the express tracks don't allow for stops anywhere along the way, they have no other useful purpose. At one time the TA ran a weekday express service along those tracks, but it didn't attract enough riders and was shelved.
Do you really think many CI-bound subway riders are coming from south Brooklyn? I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that the bulk come from north of DeKalb, and as such don't have strong preferences of one line over another.
Right now, of course, most take the West End. With all four lines running through with bridge service from Manhattan, as will be the case soon enough, I'd guess that most would opt for the Brighton express when it runs and the Sea Beach otherwise.
Urban renewal & Robert Moses.
--Mark
Where? No CI during its heyday, that's for sure. Of course other factors contributed, but when going to the beach was no longer the only way to escape the heat, the numbers starting dropping dramatically.
You have to look at a whole bunch of factors. The Times had an article recently on the decline of many of the resorts in upstate New York. Obviously there was no subway service to these resorts. The conventional explanation is "the 3 A's: airplanes, assimilation, and air conditioning." ("Assimilation," because a lot of these resorts appealed to targeted ethnic groups.)
In Coney Island's case, you could add a fourth reason: autos. Coney Island didn't deteriorate overnight. But thanks to at least three of the four A's (airplanes, autos, and air conditioning), people now have a lot more options than they did when Coney Island was in its heyday.
But frankly, part of the blame lies with Coney Island itself. It failed to keep up. Its arcades and emporia are a throwback to tastes no longer popular. I took my son there recently. Many of the game arcades are woefully dilapidated and out-of-date. The evidence suggests that C.I. businesses rested on their laurels, and allowed much of the tourist trade to go elsewhere. Obviously this didn't happen all at once, but over a period of many years.
What I don't understand is why Six Flags doesn't step in with at least a mini-operation. A huge captive population of people without cars are still here. I bet their park in NJ (which is only a few miles away) gets very few NYC patrons.
I think you're wrong about that. Granted, the arcades wouldn't have been in that particular spot had not the beaches been there. But for beaches alone there are plenty of places to go. It's the surrounding amenities that lead someone to choose a particular beach. Just go to the Hamptons or the Jersey Shore, and you'll see what I mean.
the amusements bennifited by the beach being the attraction. Not the other way around
In the case of the Jwersey shore where people with cars have options as to which beach to choose. The amenities offered is an incentive to choose one town over another
For instance many adults choose belmar becasue of the bar seen
Thinking at the time was "hey, this is a grat place to put public housing. It's out of the way". Oops, no one realized that it would change the entire economic structure of the shore communities.
--Mark
At Jones Beach there are no McDonalds, parking revenues for maintenance, and no broken glass. No entertainment other than ocean bathing, and it is costly and far away.
When we go to the beach, therefore, we go to Riis Park in the Rockaways. It has that parking revenue, and less commercial and less garbage, but it is closer. When we go to Coney Island, we don't go to the beach.
Coney Island needs to become a nightime entertainment district. People are pushing nightclubs out of everywhere else because of noise and other quality of life issues. Why don't the young, and those who cater to them, go to Coney Island to party? Why, you could even permit smoking in bars there! And no need to drive home.
Intriguing idea, although I would imagine that the clubs and their patrons would strongly resist the move - most of them want to be in Manhattan.
(Intriguing idea, although I would imagine that the clubs and their patrons would strongly resist the move - most of them want to be in Manhattan.)
Doesn't have to be universal. Back in Coney's heyday there was an entertainment district in Manhattan too.
Part of the problem may be the buildings, or lack of buildings. Entertainment tends to be entreprenurial, and thus requires cheap space. Manhattan has plenty of old spaces ready for use. Coney Island does not. Building a new building, on spec, for occupancy by nightclubs and restaurants run by entreprenuers on a shoestring is risky at best. Hence the ongoing desire for someone like Disney to come in and build a "corporate" destination to establish the area, and give small scale builders and operators a "bankable" trend to latch onto.
A long time ago I had suggested nightclub space as a part of the new Stillwell Terminal.
There are plenty of up and coming night spots outside manhattan. It is refreshing not having to drive into manhattan to hang out
A few areas,
williamsburg
Bay Ridge
Sheepshead Bay
Smith Street
Brooklyn Heights
The ammenities like good resturants and nightlife draw people to an area. The we want nobody but the poor in our neighborhood groups call it gentrification. Normal new yorkers call it progress to making neighborhoods livable.
The dirty little secret in this city is 80% of middle clas homeowners have left the 4 boroughs outside of SI since 1990. A new middle class has risen and new immigrants have filled in the gap and are begining to move up the latter. This is fueling tons of new housing in sheepshead bay, Brighton Beach, Bensonhurst, boro park etc.
The so called housing shortage is mostly due to new immigrants deiving upo the costs of lower end unints and the terrible rent control laws that drive up rents.
If CI was not interfeared with by the low incom housing crowd, it would naturally redeveloped itself over time. It it was to remain entertainment oriented, proper zoning would have been needed to prevent housing from being built
My freind from the gym just bought a co-op on ocean parkway with ocean views, 2 bedroom for $450,000. He immigrated from russian with his family at age 5, went to brooklyn college and made a success of himself
The rusians love to work hard and party harder. Thier is a market for CI nightspots. If the Politicians back off low-incme housing or nothing stance and provide the correct zoning, CI will take shape nicely. They want to stay in the area and are driving new developemnt all over the area from sheapshead bay to CI. Even the areas around the Bay 50th are starting to get redeveloped.
My friend was telling me their is a groundswell to take the Luna Park mitchel lama development market rate.
Update the zoning and let the free market take shape
Coney Island amusement operated failed ro cahnge with the times. It failed to upgrade its attractions to compeate not only with other beaches but with new amusment parks such as great adventure which features at least one new ride each tear to draw return visits. This year it is "Superman ultimate flight"
Coney Island biggest problem was that moses took away one of it's main attrations in luna park. The land where the housing develpement now stands was needed for a criticcal mass for CI to compeat with the likes of great adventure. The current amusment park area is just too small
The Ci amusement operators if left alone may have made the adjustmetns over time. We will never know know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The irish and italians supplanted the germans and english.
Their is no bias against immigrants, I am just stating fact. My family was part of that immigrant generation that arived from the turn of the century until the 1950's
Read some history books and then come back and chat another day
For a quick study watch gangs of New York
The fact is that part of the reason people drove out to Jones Beach instead of CI was they throught they elevated themselves above the masses and wanted no part of the issues that the new mass brought with them.
No bias agaist immigrangs there, just stating fact. If you read some books on the decline of CI, most books will state the above.
The solders came back from WWII with tons of money saved. It gave an entire generation a jump start finacialy. If you read history books, during the war rations and the shift to building war gooda vs. cosumer goods casued bank account to swell.
Many soldiers spent the money on cars and houses that were advertised as getting people out of the hot stickky overcrowded cities.
All facts, no opinion in these statements.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do some research yourself.
I often have arguments with my aunt in bensonhurst concerning the rusians and chiease who put up signs in thier language.
I tell her to go down to 65th street and 11th ave and check out the signs in Itailan
I will try to head over there and take some pictures this evening
It wasn't Moses, actually Luna Park was destroyed by a terrible fire that engulfed the park and nearly got to the Sea Beach side of Coney Island subway station.
During the 1950's and 1960's the car gave new freedom to the immigrants masses that arrived earlier in the decade. CI was never going to have the gigantic crowds it has earlier in the century, but new attractions would have drawn enogh people to make the amusent area viable.
With the Luna park land gone, there was not enough amusmsnt space to compete with the new, more family freindly parks like great adventure.
Amusements must evolve or be rendered out dated.
The Belt system opened in the 30's but housing in Coney Island would not come until the 50's.
The Luna Park fire took place on 12 Aug 1944 - during WWII. The park had been attracting increasing crowds until the fire - no doubt due in part to war time gas rationing. They charged 10 cents to see the ashes for the remainder of the 1944 season.
Now that is an example of entrepreneurship in action! Dayum, just think of the money the city could've raked in by charging admission to view Ground Zero.
The ground zero remains in the weeks following 9/11 was a sight to see. Sadly though
During the WWII, no amusement parks was going to rise due to the war. There were political forces that had plans for the lunar park area.
It is a complex issue. Real Esate developers saw the land where luna park was as prime developemnt grounds. The land was more valuable as residential real easte then a low margin amusment park. Following the model of the sheepshead bay and manhattan beach areas where race tracks and major resort hotels were supplanted by higher margin residential housing when the subway arrived. Similar forces were happening in CI
I have read two excellant books on this topic. One is The brooklyn gold cost covering the area of sheepshead bay and manhattan beach and another on the CI and brighton beach areas. I would give you the name of the CI book but I just looked in my book pile and can not find the book.
At the time politicians did not see the value of the CI amusements. Just as it is today, the almighty dollar of bribes and favors sway the politicians will.
Looking back we see a romantic assemblage of people's and the faded relics of the era. Remember this was a time where they tour the palace that was Penn station down.
To make a long story short, the decision to build low income housing killed any hope that the masses would return in full force as crime or the fear of crime further chased crowds away
BTW, anyone ever eat at Garguilo's? Is the food ok there?
Amusements must evolve or be rendered out dated.
Yup they either jump on top of the opportunity or let it go, probably happened to Playland in the Rockaways in the 1980's?, just couldn't keep it up anymore so it was torn down.
The problem is when the equation changed with the advent of the Auto and the lost of one of the attractions. The operators got left holding the bag
Also rising real estate costs change the equation. When you can make more moey selling the property to a developer then runing and amusement park. Amusement parks tend to close down.
Alexander's department stores is now a real estate company. they could make more just renting out the stores then operating them. so they closed the stores down
Coney Island did not decline as a result of competition from mega-parks such as Great Adventure. It was already in an advanced state of decline well before those parks became serious destination resorts. Moreover, they are destination resorts, expensive and requiring relatively lengthy travel times. Coney Island in its heyday was the ultimate peoples' resort, inexpensive and (obviously) easy to reach. Other area beaches such as Jones Beach were and are stiff competition, but Coney Island still could have held its own if it hadn't been allowed to deteriorate so markedly. Its current pathetic state - and a bush-league baseball stadium and a bunch of pie-in-the-sky redevelopment plans aren't going to change matters - is a stark example of Typical New York Incompetence.
Areas decline and come back.
It's also quite expensive. In its heyday, Coney Island was a place where people could go to have fun without having to spend much money. Great Adventure et al. do not so qualify.
Unfortunately, that dynamic doesn't seem to work today. I.E., there seems to be more chaotic behavior associated with "...without having to spend much money." type public attractions than with those that require spending a larger amount of money to go to. This also seems related to the issues of having Nik-O-Lok pay entry rest rooms at subway stations, closed off station mezzanines due to "crime considerations", parks overused by barbequeing picnic crowds, and other quality of life matters.
In short, possibly due to the lessening of, for want of a better term, "moral standards". Many people feel no qualms about exhibiting the most offensive public behavior caring not a whit for the sand-in-the-machinery effects such behavior causes to society. For instance, I feel for parents of young girls if they pass by one of those newstands that display the "dirty" mags right out in plain view. I see those swarmy stand operators doing that plenty of times. I've argued with a few of them about it. I told one guy I hope he sees his own daughter on the covers of one of those rags. Yeah yeah, it's irrational behavior...but I laid into him all the same.
That's why the objections to the so called ticket blitz is such a farse. The police and other enforcement authorities do a poor job of enforcing certain laws ment to combat certain offense. It is technicaly illegal to display porn in clear view of children. There are laws on the are ment to uphold most agredious offense of our moral standards. I agree that govenment should not overly interfere in our lives but those who blantanly violate certain laws should be punished for thier behavior that effect the civil rights of others
At least Wal-Mart feels their pain. They are going to be covering up magazines such as Cosmopolitan to protect innocent young minds.
Tom
Season passes are also avialable for $75 a person with free passes for a guest
It is $28 if you buy your tickets from AAA plus thier are multiple other discount offers availble from McDonalds and on soda cans and web web sites
Plus you get half off after 4 pm and on return visits
How much is it per rider at CI. $2-5 per ride
P.O.P. Pay One Price
$17.99 per Person without Cyclone 6 hours only
$21.99 per Person with Cyclone
Rides can be purchased individually from $2.00-$5.00 or a
Pay-One-Price Ticket for all rides can be bought for $17.99/21.99:
Mon-Fri Session 1 12-6pm (sold until 4pm)
Mon-Thu Session 2 4-10pm (sold until 8pm)
Kiddie Rides: $2 each or 10 rides for $17
The Cyclone Roller Coaster is $5 with a re-ride at $4
If you plan on riding the rides all day the price is about the same plus since the two CI parks do not recognize each others tickets, you are dividing the attractions
Coney Island is still a fun place, inexpensive, full of NY character, and with an aquarium and beach to boot. The stadium is cool and it is likely some redevelopment will take place (and the new ADA-compliant Stillwell terminal will make it easier for people to get there).
I guess it's a good thing you live in New York. At least here you whine but somehow manage to muddle through. If you ever had to move out of the Northeast, though...
Granted, there's a nice beach and boardwalk, but what else? Just some rundown amusements and stuff, less than what you'd see in any number of Jersey Shore towns. As far as the stadium's concerned, it's okay, but it also houses a low-level minor league team of the sort more commonly found in some cow town. And making Stillwell Avenue ADA-compliant's nice, but largely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of subway riders.
A large market to draw from very very close and a few million ex new yorkers who would love to come and visit thier old stomping grounds. Generations of ex New Yorkers who live on Long Island and NJ and their children have heard stories of CI. Cyclones games are filled with ex new yorkers who came to see CI, eat at nathans etc. Too bad the stadium opening could not coincide with the revitalizstion of CI
New rides can replace some of the outdated amusments. There are a few blocks of empty lots between the new ballpark and current amusments. Currently the amusment park operators have no incentive to upgrade the rides until the city sets the ball in motion.
A attractive combination of amusments could be incorporated around the two main draws. the cyclone and the wonder wheel. Observing the behavior of people going to cyclone games, people will line up for a hour for nathans but other food retailers go without customers. Upgrades of food venders needs to occur
There is alot to work with. The jersey shore it is not. Even towns like seaside heights have done alot recently to attract back visitors. Seaside heights hired private security to patrol the boardwalk
The new subway station is a big deal. The old station was scary to someone not familiar with the complex. One of the main deterents to going to CI is the percieved level of security. On an average weekend CI is filled with minorty groups and immigrants who have no car to go somewhere else while rsidents withing a few miles drive to the shore, LI or manahattan beach becasue of the safety issue. CI looks a bit like a ghetto. Keyspan park cleaned up the area abit. A minor facelift can clean up some more.
People will come if there is something to come too. Right now you have two blocks of amusments on one side of the street. The aquarium is nice but how it is layed out it is somwhat disconected from the rest of CI.
The aquarium also is a barrier on the broadwalk. It is a long walk with nothing from the active Brighton Beach broadwalk with it's cafe's and resturant. Some boardwalk shops and resturants to bridge the gap will help.
The public also needs to be made aware of the plentiful safe parking next to the stadium. A major issue to many.
A pay one price pass that is good at both parks would also help. People are used to the pay one price model at places like grat adventure
If you break down the formula for six flags parks it is simple. One new mega coaster(the coaster is the draw) each year surrounded by coar rides and small amusements. A few Shows and a safe atmosphere
CI has the major draw, all it needs is a shot in the arm to make it all happen. Supper Express subway service to attract manahttan tourist won't help
10 years ago most people would laugh at you if they said tourist would ever return to times sqaure. CI is light years ahead of times square on crime, decor and attractions. Just have some faith
One wonders the fate of the old Shore theatre. Seems this Bullard guy got real greedy when Disney was poking around a few years ago and they told him to stuff his multi million dollar price. He has to change his mind or that property will remain a blight on the corner of Surf and Stikllwell Ave's.
Bill "Newkirk"
I can go into much more detail then I provided. We could here for days diffeernt possibilities.
It is an area which I have charted out redeveloment ideas on both sides of the island including possibly building a platform over part of the CI railyards for a hotel casino entertainment project, complete with new exit with direct access to the casino to reduce community traffic concerns and supper express service via the sea beach or west end lines to the new hotel and entertainent district. Thier is alot of land on CI for developement. Unfortunitly some of it is not in the best place for amusements
Friends have told me that I should persue a masters in urban planning. I have een gone so far as to discuss the idea with a mutual freind who s in charge of planning for boulder CO.
But without a clear cut developement plan, they all came back. Both sides of the street needs to be incorporated into an entertainment district
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, ten years only people with vision would have imagined that tourist would ever freely roam the area around times square.
times sqaure has not been all that successful for business that set up thier. The rents are pretty high and thier are a bunch of vacant stores
CI has less of a skell factor, but will attract gangs of routy teanagers if the wrong miz of businesses come their. That is part of teh problem with times square. Times sqaures other problem is that the attractions have no character.
Now that you brought it up, they would have to go however they could give the flea market sellers a proper facility so they won't be out in the open like that.
Most of them are currently operating illegally where they currently are. If they can not find a suitable location then that's business. Protecting skell businesses. Many sell stolen items and don't collect proper sales tax harming legimate busieness
One of the dealers had a 15 crt monitor. For fun I asked him how much. he wanted $100 bucks. for that price i could buy a brand new 17 monitor.
It would be nice to see the Shore Theatre building open again in some fashion.
--Mark
If Coney Island made a comeback, the Sea Beach express tracks could be put to excellent use. But the MTA isn't going to do that prospectively. The area needs to have attractions to justify the service.
--Mark
There has been on and off talk about a ferry service similar to the service NY Waterway is planning for the rockaways.
Casino's are still a perfecrt fit for the bay side of CI. Super express service could originate at penn station to manhattan visitors and allow New Jersey riders easy quick access to CI
Casino's are also a good fit becasue they bring year round visitors and compliment the amusments during the summer.
If Casino's would have been allowed since the time AC came into existance, CI and it;s amusments areas would be a major summer resort. Not just for New Yorkers but for visitors from around the globe.
The biggest obsticle now is the casino operators themselves, they have big investments in properties in AC. CI is the perfecr location, easy highway access, from LI and NJ. Tons of rail access. Plenty of land on the bay side of the island. and a three large aiports nearby
Properly implemented, super express service to/from Coney Island could be implemented virtually cost free.
In the AM, there is generally more demand for service TO Manhattan than FROM. So just cut the level of service coming from Manhattan on ALL the southern division lines to a level justified by the demand. Have all those extra trains run back to Stillwell as super-expresses.
Same thing in the PM. The number of trains you want to run to Stillwell is greater than the number you want to run from Stillwell. After arriving at Stillwell, you want to get the trains back to Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx ASAP to pick up another southbound load to bring home. So send some of the trains that are unneeded for regular TO Manhattan service back as super-expresses to bring the Coney Island beachgoers home.
The only added cost would be, say, after 7:00 pm, when the additional service is not needed in either direction.
Depends on how you look at it. If you assume 2/3 of those on the 4th Avenue line south of 59th transfer to the Sea Beach at 59th (which is what I observed today after dropping off my car for repair), then the Sea Beach has more people on it at 36th Street than the West End.
In any event, ridership in Brooklyn isn't the point of a special express service. Everyone on the southern division is accomodated by the existing services. The point would be to speed people coming down from Manhattan and the Bronx by having them skip stops in Brooklyn. The Sea Beach express tracks could be good for that.
Exactly. The MTA should also market a "best route to the CI amusments". Marketing to alert riders of how long a ride it is and which is the fastest route will attract riders espcially manhattan tourists. Kmowing what your getting yourself into is important.
I think, frankly, that the amusements would need to be better than they are now. As it stands, lack of information about "how to get there" is not the problem.
Quite frankly it is not that bad. It is not as glorious as it may have been but it is still worth the trip and many tourists would be willing to take a day trip out to the aquarium and to ride the cyclone and the wonder wheel, eat at nathans. For two blocks it is pretty nice. Take a ride out on a summer weekend. Thier are plenty of people there.
What hurt CI in the 1980's was the perception of crime and all the skells hanging around. Since guilianni too office. thier is a cop on every corner in the amusment park district making people feel safer. Ample parking at keyspan park ahs brought more people back, but so much more can be done.
People come to NY and want to see the big sights. statue of liberty, the empire state building and yes the CYCLONE. People want to see what it is all about.
Especially european tourist and asain tourists who want to say they have been there and rode the cyclone. They come to see all the sights they have read about.
A simple change as putting best route to the cyclone on a train map or platform sign will cost virtually nothing and would make it easier for those not familair with the city. Especially now with the W being the only route to CI.
KISS - Keep it simple stupid
As I mentioned in an earlier post, merging the two parks, charging a minimun ticket purchace to enter would create a easier to market product and help both operators and ensure visitors that when they are in the park, thier security is number one.
This would require de-mapping some street such as the street between the cyclone and the rest of astroland.
A few simple changes this summer could go along way to not only attracting tourists but new developement.
The problem still lies in the desire of some to take care of the needs of the poor housing projects residents over the needs of bringing in tourist dollars
The two should go hand in hand as more tourist $$$ = more needed jobs for area residents.
The whole class warfare crap ends up hurting the lower and working classes.
It's since gone back to it's old name 'manor farm/petting zoo' after the collapse of Animalism.
My grandfather was a pig farmer in Italy.
With all the new arrivals,a good percentage are from rural areas. I personally love the smell of hay and horse menuer
I don't want the smell in the house, but it is a welcome smell on a summer's day
Still make my own homemade tomato sauce, however.
The place still looks a bit run down but a big improvement from what it looked like pre-ballpark. They build a nice new pier near the ballpartk that extends a few hundred feet out over the ocean.
Coney Island is still a big BRAND NAME with plenty of drawing power and a national reputiation.
If you did a branding study what people around the country think of CI, people who have never been there, you will get images of what you see on Nathans commercials and in people minds of the past.
Bring in the right mix of amusments and other attractions and CI will attract people from all over the regions. Visitiors need to be able to buy packages that let them use both amusment parks at CI. A requirement of a minumum ticket purcahce per person will allow the parks to exclude vagrants and to increase the perception of security.
This practice is used at "Fun Time USA" which is an indoor amusment park and arcade on Knapp street in sheepshead bay. Besides the amuasments fun time brings in wrestlers and other celbreties to keep people coming back. The place is packed all the time especaily on weekends. Security is tight at fun time which allows parents to rest at ease. A major concenrn when attracting people. The place is so packed that pay parking lots are poping up all ovet the place.
Fot those who are not familiar with knapp street. It is a industrial street which contains both one of the largest sewage treatment plant in the city and a major sanitation garage plus public housing project two blocks away. People come becasuse of the product and the marketing
Tour operators need to be lined to bus in people to the attractions from other areas. People travel to mystic Conn for the aqaurium, seaport(which is nothing special) CI has more to offer write now
The crime issue is begining to fade, but perception needs to change. The new subway station complex will help alot. The old one was falt out scary
Minor upgrades can be made this summer to make things look even better. For one, the city needs to crack down business that don't corrospond with the zoning of CI. This includes school bus parking lots, used furtinture stores etc. They detract from the areas. the product mix at the used furture stores is more the issue then the stores themselves.
CI has a nice aquarium which just built a new outside water show areana like sea world. with the right packaging and new attrations CI will draw tons of people.
People are looking for day trips especially durimg the summer months. CI can pick up some of this market. They need to improve highway access and the apearance of the aproach roads from the belt. right now when you get off the belt heading to CI at cropsy ave you have a junk yard and other scary industial looking stuff. The Home Depot helps to improve the areas image though
Coney Island needs to market itself as a unit as family freindly, plenty of safe corporate run parking lot(at keyspan), huge beach etc. These are issues that the day tripper crowd are looking for.
Safety is the #1 issue. People will not come to an unsafe location no matter what attractions exist
A few packages could be offered that combine fun passes or ppr metrocards, park admissions, food discounts at CI concessions, maps with the history of CI and it's past attractions etc.
This is where the MTA's new fare structure kicks in. The tourist are going to pay a higher rate then residents $2 ppr or $7 fun pass.
One point I forgot to note about keyspan park. Keyspan park features numerous storefronts that are ment to attract entertainment and dinning tennants. Even when a game is not being played, the ballpark can fit into CI rebirth. Plus Mermaid ave has a nice little shopping distict with a little immagination could feature antique shops and high end shopping. It is not far fetched. The rusian community are huge spenders on high end stores and would shop the area.
There is alot to work with in CI. Even the Lunar park developemtn could add ground floor retail and other establishements adding to the street feel
Part of the problem with lunar park co-ops is that they are focuses inwards with not much street life for blocks.
CI is far closer to being a tourist draw then many people on this board would think. Just comapre the brighon beach boardwalk of ten years ago to the lively place with cafe's and resturants it is today.
What is holding up CI is poor zoning. It has the right location
You place too much faith in nostalgia. Three things made the decline of Coney Island inevitable. The automobile, air conditioning and TV.
CI was a place one could get to by subway to get out of the heat in the summer by going to the beach in the daytime, and it was possible to go to the amusement area at night, and take in the fireworks as a way to get out of a sweltering apartment.
CI was always marginal, even in its heyday. It was a summer resort making money only during the three months from Memorial Day to Labor Day. Big crowds for three months, and hardly enough income to keep any of the rides operating the rest of the year. CI was a "let's get out of the heat" place for non car owning people only. If you had a car, you could load up the trunk with all the things needed at the beach, including an umbrella, beach chairs, a cooler, beach ball, etc., but you wanted more space and convenient parking. If you were going to CI on the subway it was a picnic basket and blanket only. After WWII, more and more New Yorkers had automobiles. They also got air conditioning and TV, so watching Milton Berle and Sid Caesar in a cool apartment largely replaced going to CI on a weekday evening. It was still a date place for young people on weekends, but that was not enough to keep it going.
The opening of Disneyland in 1955 let everyone see the theme type of amusement park that attracted people from far away in a climate that allowed a longer season. CI never had done that and could not hope to compete. The destruction of Steeplechase Park in the early ‘60s was the swan song of the old CI. It will not return.
Tom
Nothing ever returns. However, new things can emerge if allowed to. Coney Island is a place that many people in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and even Staten Island (via auto) can get to very easily. It also has a beach, and a history. Aside from a few landmark rides like the Wonder Wheel and Cycloone, I believe it's future is indoors.
New York City is short of large stores. The area north of Neptune Avenue adjacent to Stilwell was proposed for major regional shopping in the Lindsay era, but to buy a few votes it was rezoned to prohibit new buildings on lots larger than 3,000 square feet. Not that residents of White Sands, just across the Coney Island Creek, have gladly sold their dilapidated dwellings to Home Depot and moved to better houses, this should be reconsidered.
New York City has a love-have relationship with nightime entertainment venues, liking the excitement but not the noise and parking problems. The C7 zone mapped south of Neptune already permits movie theaters, discos, bars, restaurants, small arenas, and other entertainment venues. Any remaining prohibitions should be swept away, the parking requirement should be cut (let people use transit or pay to park in public lots), and new buildings should be encouraged.
I think the renaissance of areas like TriBeCa, DUMBO, the New Times Square, Washington Heights, Harlem, etc., shows that downtrodden areas can come back.
He comes back every time Disney lets him out of the film library.
:0)
The old terminal was ADA-compliant and provided a place to buy cotton candy.
The old terminal was not ADA compliant, the ramps were too steep and there was only one elevator. You could buy cotten candy though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unforunitly there is not much land to work with
We will soon see what the plans will look like
There are some who have the dilusional vision of the past and won't settle for anything less then what they remembered as a child
Dreamland burned down in 1911. :-)
That's right, you are in dreamland thinking of such a thing ;-). BTW, didn't the old Dreamland park burn down so many years ago......
I am in College and in my opinion there are two amusement areas at the top of my list. Cedar Point for Roller Coasters in Sandusky, Ohio. It is a 6 hour ride from Chicago, but worth every second, the new coaster this year is 400 feet tall and gets up to 120 mph in 5 seconds. go to www.cedarpoint.com if you don't believe me.
I gladly take the 6 hour ride versus the 1 hour ride to Six-Flags Great America here. Its like comparing Amtrak to the TGV.
On the other hand, I will be in NYC this August for vacation and will be spending 1/2 a day at Coney Island. I think Coney Island is awesome. I admit it is probably a little because NYC is my favorite place in the world (that I've been to) and I'm a rail-fan. But just the atmosphere, Nathans, the beach, the crowds, and the classic cyclone and other amusement games make it awesome. If I lived in NYC as a young person me and my friends would probably be there all the time during the summer. You can get there for only $2.00 on the subway and get away with having fun and eating at Nathan's for a minimal amount of cash, especially good for college students. Also, the guy walking down the beach with the big bag of beer doesn't care how old you are, just if you pay. Not that that matters, I will be 21 in NYC this year anyway, but it just one of those things that you can say only happens in New York and makes it great.
BJ
Bill "Newkirk"
Can you elaborate? The track map shows switches north of 95th that allow either branch to go local or express.
I think he means that there should be a flying junction of some sort allowing locals to go down Lenox or expresses to continue up Broadway. For example, if the center track of upper Bway were connected directly into the express tracks, there could be an express (#3?) continuing up Broadway while a local (#9?) could go to Lenox Ave and/or the Bronx. This is physically possible, in an emergency or GO or speaking hypothetically, but not operationally possible, in terms of capacity.
Broadway-7 Ave Exp. 242 St - New Lots
Broadway-7 Av Local 137 St - South Ferry
7 Av Exp. Bronx Park - Flatbush
7 Av Local 145 St - South Ferry
At some point it was deemed too inefficient and dangerous to retain that service pattern, so all locals went to Broadway and all expresses went to Lenox.
6. Too many stations built on curves on the Contract One portion, especially Union Square.
Well get out there, son! It is a great ride! Lots to see and do. It is an interesting part of the system. If you'd only spend less time writing on the walls of our beautiful stations.... :)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Access to the branch to Flatbush is only from the local track, so 5 trains (except for the handful that go to Utica) have to cross to the local track briefly before the turnoff. That places a hard cap on combined 2/3/5 service, limiting total 2/3 service (in Manhattan as well as in Brooklyn) to well below what it could and, arguably, should be.
Seriously:
-The Rogers Junction
-Rebuilding Franklin Av shuttle with one track mostly
-Not building the 3rd track via the Jamaica line
-Building the 1/9 the way it is north of 96 St [lack of island platforms]
-Flatbush Av station on the 2/5, the layout of the line actually kind of prevents a possible extension
Bill "Newkirk"
2. The lack of connectivity between the Corona-Flushing IRT and the rest of the IRTs (ever since the 2nd Ave El was torn down.)
3. The sharp curves on the Eastern Division--the one on the Broadway/Jamaica El is somewhat exscusable in light of when it was originally built, but the curves on the Canarsie Line (built much later, mostly in the Dual COntracts era) were just a sign of cheapness.
4. The INDs built to close to existing lines.
5. The lack of an express on the Broadway/Jamaica el.
6. The refurbrished Main St, very nice looking, but the dead-end prevents an extension of the line and ties up the east end of the Flushing IRT badly.
7. A more general comment: the limited choices in Queens.
:-) Andrew
I'm not so sure I'd call the narrow clearances a mistake, as the IRT came first. Those clearances could have become the standard for the entire system.
Isn't this possible? Sure, the historic stations at Cleveland St., Norwood Ave., and Crescent St. would have to demolished to create new side platforms. But sufficient ROW exists underneath the current center platforms, if I'm not mistaken.
This was intentional to keep railroads from coopting the tunnels ala the Brookfield attempts on the Cranberry.
2. The lack of connectivity between the Corona-Flushing IRT and the rest of the IRTs (ever since the 2nd Ave El was torn down.)
So, convert the Flusing Line back to the BMT, and do something else with the Steinway Line.
5. The lack of an express on the Broadway/Jamaica el.
El Trains do not really have the width clearences for good four track operation. What is disgusting is that they made the Concourse Line with only three tracks.
6. The refurbrished Main St, very nice looking, but the dead-end prevents an extension of the line and ties up the east end of the Flushing IRT badly.
The (7) should be extended to Northern Boulevard with dual turning loops (built under the LIRR ROW) giving the Flusing Line the posibility of faster headways. Tearing out the new station to extend the line is not a problem. A waste or a shame possible, but not a problem.
Elias
El Trains do not really have the width clearences for good four track operation. What is disgusting is that they made the Concourse Line with only three tracks.
On the J line although a four track line would be great, a three track line would be sufficient. I believe that is what the other poster meant, a center express track, not a four track Jamaica el. However, I do agree with you about the Concourse. It may not be necessary for current service, however with the grand plans they had for the future of the IND back then, it really should have been a four track line, as it would have gone much further.
Much of my arguments in the past about the Fulton and Concourse subways being a total waste of money as they were reduntant to existing dual contract els is probably because of what the map looks like today. I certainly wouldn't have the same criticism of them if the IND 2nd System actually come into being (even with the South Fourth Street subway that would have made my beloved Broadway El redundant!)
Back to BMT? It never was BMT! BMT trains operated on the line in the 1920's-1940's, but essentially they were squatting on IRT territory. Both the Flushing and Astoria lines were built with IRT platform clearances, and thus only IRT trains ran through routes on the Flushing and Astoria lines (from 42nd Street and the 2nd Ave El.) The BMT ran IRT-sized shuttles from the now-demolished north part of Queensboro Plaza, which provided a cross-platform transfer to/from BMT through routes to Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Anyway, converting the Flushing line to BMT would probably cause more problems than it would solve, unless they spent the fortune necessary to convert the Steinway tunnels as well--money much better spent on building new lines. If it were tied into the 60th Street tunnel, then...OY! Isn't that overcrowded enough already? Seriously, there is NO WAY the two-track 60th St. BMT could handle the super-busy Flushing line on top of everything else.
:-) Andrew
1. No express track on the Jamaica El (while almost every other dual contract el got one - the one now needed the most - Jamaica).
2. IND redundantcies next to existing lines. Both the Concourse and Fulton lines are good lines, but other lines should have taken priority before duplicating existing lines.
3. Not connecting the Rockaway line to Queens Blvd back in the 60's. The Liberty connection, while not bad, should have been a second connection, not the only connection. This deprived a part of Queens necessary and useful subway service.
I was at the 167th St. station a little while ago, at the North end of the station on the Northbound platform, looking at the double facing crossovers. I noticed that the catwalk was cut away adjacent to the first ( nearest ) turnout. This was obviously relief for the 75 footers. Any 46 or 68 taking that turnout would have copious frontal overhang, causing the corners of the cars to swing outward coinciding with the catwalk - had it not been removed.
Then there was the Chevrolet/ Pontiac Fiero reliability the r-44's gave - breaking down constantly. Then don't even get me started on the Rockwell ( pronounced untested ) trucks on the 46's that had the TA scrambling for replacements.
With the R-44/46's, the MTA got too sure of itself and tried to reinvent the wheel; departing from tried-and-true technology. This served only as a flop. At least with the R-68's they seem to have learned their lesson.
R-32.
The R was moved to Queens Boulevard so one of its terminals would be near a yard, that's all.
IND:
- Wasteful numbers of tracks North of 145th St. If they all feed into 4 tracks, neither branch needs more than 2 tracks.
- Fulton Street - total waste, should have just recaptured the El - at least the Brighton Local then would have had somewhere to go.
- Fulton Street - even if they were right to ignore a perfectly fine El, building 4 tracks was a waste seeing as it would just feed into 2 at Hoyt.
- Southern Half of Crosstown parallelling Myrtle and Lexington Els - useless wasteful duplication.
- Northern Half of Crosstown not feeding into a River Tunnel but into the Queens Local.
- The original design of the Queens Local going to the Crosstown.
- The 53rd St Line only being 2 track - it should have had at least 4. Yes, you heard me right, there should have been MORE tracks built.
- The removal of the World's Fair branch leaving a crappy local terminal at Continental.
- Express tracks East of Continental.
- The way things were built in the wrong order. 2nd Avenue was needed in the 30s.
IRT:
- Naff junctions at 96th St and Rogers.
- Short platforms at 145th and South Ferry.
- The 3 track portions of the Broadway Line - waste of money.
- The poor transfers between East and West side downtown.
- The local continuing to New Lots.
- The Lex being Express in Brooklyn (this is just asking for overload!).
- The loss of the Els removing the wonderful balance of the system - for instance being able to get a train from the Jerome Av Line to either 9th or Lex.
I'm not sure either of these was a mistake at the time it was done. The Broadway El/Nassau St combination was a reasonable design for where people lived, and where they were going, at the time.
Oops, it does seem we were thinking precisely the same things!
I guess we must be right. I wonder how much it would cost to put a track descending to the Lenox Level from either side of the configuration at 96th - that would be all that would be needed to return to the perfect setup of Lenox and 137th Locals and VCP and Bronx Expresses.
I also like much of your BMT list, and the way you worded it (especially City Hall and Canal Street).
Thanks! Let's hope Fred doesn't savage me for saying his line was overbuilt!
(Quite frankly, I'm surprised I haven't been savaged by the IND fans for criticising some of the more stupid IND express tracks.)
I think that reconfiguring 242/VCP, Flatbush Terminal, and Rogers Junction would be higher priorities than that project.
Flatbush terminal is rightfully the highest. But why is Rogers higher priority than 96th? They're the same situation in mirror image. You could apply the same "fix" to Rogers that has been applied to 96th: don't send any expresses to Flstbush.
If folks at 96th can cross the platform to allow increased capacity, why not the folks at Franklin?
First of all, as I understand it, there's no point in improving capacity at Flatbush if capacity isn't also improved at Rogers.
Why Rogers over 96th? Simply because the demand is higher there. Technically it's the same problem, but the need isn't equal.
242 is fine the way it is but a double platform, 3 track terminal would be better or perhaps a loop.
I'm not sure the demand is there for more service on the #1/9, but assuming South Ferry is rebuilt with tail tracks, limitations at 242/VCP will determine the line's capacity.
I would have thought the numbers are roughly comparable.
Along with the inability to turn trains at 137th St. North of 137th St doesn't need all those trains, you know, so if 137th were available as a terminal, it wouldn't matter if 242nd St could only handle something pathetic like 12tph.
What stupid IND express tracks?
I really don't know (I guess it was abandoned when they came up with their jackassed crosstown), but a 4-track line would have resulted in a much more balanced system. Consider, with all lines running various length trains peaking at 15tph:
(A) 207 - CPW Exp - 8th Exp
(BB) 168 - CPW Lcl - 6th Exp
(CC) BPB - CPW Lcl - 8th Lcl
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Exp
(E) 179 - Queens Exp - 8th Exp
(EE) Worlds Fair - Queens Lcl - 8th Lcl
(F) 179 - Queens Exp - 6th Lcl
(FF) Worlds Fair - Queens Lcl - 6th Lcl
Now wouldn't that be beautiful?
A/C/E
-Fulton St line, a subway should go faster but this is slower than it should be especially the A.
-Waste of middle track(s) after Grant Av [A's to RP could use ir running non stop to Howard Beach]
-Only 3 bypassed stops on 8 Av portion
-Layout of 135 St, what was the point?
-Archer Av extension since it didn't go through original plans, doesn't even go to at least Merrick Blvd
-Not connecting the Christie Street connection to allow Broadway or
6th Avenue trains to go down Nassau Street.
-Construction of the 42nd St. & 8th Ave. station which blocked any
easy expansion of the "7" line west of Times Square. Does anyone know why this was done? The spur tracks west of Times Square end just 200 feet east of the east curbline of 8th Ave. Almost seems deliberate!
-Not connecting the IND local tracks south of the Chambers St.-Hudson
Terminal station, long before the WTC was ever built.
-Not constructing a 4 track, double island platform terminal, or something similar, when the South ferry station was closed post-9-11.
Why is this a big deal? Broadway and 6th Ave trains can go down Church St and across Fulton St. respectively.
Construction of the 42nd St. & 8th Ave. station which blocked any
easy expansion of the "7" line west of Times Square.
Not true. I did measurements. With a 2-3% downgrade, the 7 could easily pass underneath the lower level 8th Ave platform as it heads westward. This is half of the 7 platform is actually east of 7th Ave.
I'm not sure I understand this one. The local tracks have the choice of going to the Brooklyn-bound Chambers St platform (the C does this), or terminating at WTC (the E does this). What other connection would you want?
-Not constructing a 4 track, double island platform terminal, or something similar, when the South ferry station was closed post-9-11.
This was not a design mistake. The top priority was restoring service as it had been pre-9/11, so that local trains would have a place to terminate in Manhattan. Reconstructing South Ferry is a much more complicated project, and it is on the drawing boards. But it wouldn't have made sense to hold up the re-opening of the line while that was done.
What they did do, however, was to add a double crossover south of Rector St, so that Rector could be a terminal while SF is rebuilt.
AIM has said that the #7 could pass under the IND lower level with just a 2-3% downgrade west of Times Square. Alternatively, they may just demolish the IND lower level. According to Joe Brennan's site the tracks have been lifted, and certainly there is no plan ever to use it in transit service again.
Better yet, the Indians shouldv'e kept Manhattan and not sold it to the Europeans. We wouldn't have all these problems today.
New York. Pshaw.
:0)
I'm sure a 1900 Stephen Bauman counted the number of trains per hour on the Els, and was arguing to anyone who'd listen that New York didn't need a subway, as the existing "transit system" was good enough.
With an high enough discount rate, that would undoubtedly have been provable. If fact, it would be possible to prove that no one should build any infrastructure at all, since the benefits are too long term.
In fact, thoughtful people are rethinking cost benefit and the discount rate, given its implications for the real long term. That is, given any discount rate at all, the well being of those living 100 or 150 years from now is valued so low that even a modest cost is not worth paying to avoid the extinction of the human species. The only people who believe that are Republicans.
Being from the TA era of "You can't do that!" I have none of my own, but here's one of my favorites that my father has told.
On the J at Essex St he pulls into the station and does his thing. While he's got his head out of the window a kid is standing behind him, jabbing a knife at him (but obviously not touching him). My father chooses to ignore him hoping to avoid a confrontation.
As he's closing down he notices the kid is gone. Upon pulling his head in he looks around, sees the kid is definitely gone, but there's a cop standing there. The cop tells my father he saw what the kid was doing. The kid took off when the cop began waving his gun at the kid.
True or not, I don't know. You never ask a TA worker telling a war story if he's telling the truth. And you definitely don't if he's your father. :)
Yeah, stuff like that happened here and there. When I lived in the Bronx, most of my buddies were cops and detectives from the 52 down Webster and most of them were NUTS. Great drinking buddies, great co-conspirators in delightful chuckles of abuse of power to show some wiseass that it's not nice to screw with civil service droids. :)
I only had one incident myself as a conductor, and natch it was at 205th Street ... kid threw a bottle at me as I was headed south to tie up at Bedford. Bottle broke on the car about 5 feet from me. I found out when the next train came down as I was getting ready for my next trip that several folks on the platform chased the kid and he fell down on the stairs headed up for the street.
Back in those days, the TA was like the wild west and it was NORMAL for all of us to look out for one another. Pops' story would be no surprise. It was like that then.
So I hear about those days. That's why I believe him.
In the magazine section at B&N I stan d looking and realize why so many kids are turning to rice rockets... almost every issue of Turbo and the like I've seen has a chick on the cover.
Meanwhile quality magazines (the ones I like) have some dude with greasy and bloody knuckles wrenching on a Chevy big block.
So my proposal? Train picks with hot chicks. When taking your pics, find a hot ditsy blonde.
"Hi, I just want to get a picture of you and a train. Can you stand in front of it as it comes in?"
"Uh, yeah, like, ok."
"Thanks."
She jumps down onto the tracks. "Like this?"
"No, not in FRONT of it like that? Aww, sh!t." You run upstairs as the train comes in, and reach the top just to hear it go BIE.
Then the train will be there long enough for you to get some decent shots at least. Too bad you couldn't get them with the chick though.
I'm just kidding about this idea obviously because I in no way want to decrease the population of ditsy blondes.
I always said trains and women were my two favorite things of interest! LOL!
-Stef
Asian.
Definition courtesy of Qtraindash7, who has a fetish for mystical chix (as do what seems like half the Caucasian men in America, but that's another issue).
And yes, they were all blondes.
What movie was that? GRRRR!
The book is called "By the El".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Solutions:
1. Class action suit to automatically disiss all summonses issued under this asinine policy.
2. Disciplinin of cops who write bogus summonses because they are ego maniacs. Please, I don' want this crap they are only following orders. So did millions of German soldirs
The case of the person getting a summons for sitting on a milk carton is not what it seems. Apparently thier was drug dealing and two shootouts at the location in question over the past few months. T
Tilting to the right is ok, but do you really believe the L.A. Times is a tabloid newspaper?
Tom
Many areas of the city the inmates rule the asylum with the law abiding citizen having to deal with all the crap.
If the summons was truly bogus they will get dismissed. In both cases even the outrageous story reported in the newspaper is technically a violation
The local tabloids are actively soliciting stories of weird tickets. It is quite likely that the stories are just an attempt to get one’s picture on TV
We all know hoe well the local press checks their facts. Channel 5 has a hotline set up for such stories
All the newspaper are trying to find the mosgt outragious story and I have yet see a summons that was not justified.
Try following the law and you have nothing to worry about. You are getting all worked up for nothing
I for one am very happy that the police are enforcing laws internted to keep our world around us tranquil
Someone sitting on the subway steps is a dangerous situation.
Someone sitting on a crate at a known drug selling location should be asked to move on.
My other personal favorite at the moment is the number of people carrying boomboxes onto the subway, and playing them without any regard for anyone else in the subway car. I've seenit twice in this last week alone. Enforcement on this has been lagging...
Agreed. And isn't it funny that it's ALWAYS the same kind of music being played? For once I'd like to hear some classical music being blared out of those boomboxes. Something different than the monotonous BOOM BOOM BOOM of the current music. What the heck good is that kind of music anyway? I never see anyone dancing to it.
Once I walked through Greenwich Village with a boombox playing Italian music. Much to my surprise many "youts" passing by made disparaging comments about it. Some were with it....but the narrowmindedness of so many showed me that the "hip crowd" were basically just another group of humans desperately trying to appear cool in front of their peers. Not a speck of open-mindedness or willingness to accept anything different. Those kids were much older in spirit than some of the older folks who appreciated the music. And they were scared to behave otherwise. Yet I'm sure that if I were to make a critism about the crap they normally listen to I'd hear stuff like "Ahh you're just an old fart! You ain't with it!" or words to that effect. But that was okay. The next time I did that it was Sinatra I had booming out of the box! Badda Bing!!
Funny thing is on May 20 (my birthday) I get a letter in the mail saying that I didn't have to show up because the summons had no date. Then a few days after I get another letter which had the official documentation saying that my case was dismissed.
Everything is at home, and I would be willing to show you everything (if we were to ever meet in person).
Defaced or not, why would you want to add to it? Your attitude shows the same disrespect for other people as the person who first wrote on the panel. You have nothing to be proud of. Instead of whining, treat TA (that is, public) property with the same respect you'd want people to show you.
That and people watching. I missed a train once because I was getting a lady's phone number. It was a good trade. :0)
Alas, the crime wave goes on unabated as the courts let the perpetrators go free on technicalities. :-)
Tom
UMMM...He was sitting in front of his place of employment.
Peace,
ANDEE
As for the milk crate guy-don't tell him to move on - watch him. if he's up to something, then arrest him. telling such people to 'move on' doesn't accomplish much.
He changed his part to the republic party to avoid the democratic primary's.
Get you facts straight
Issuing tickets for violation of laws is helping the little guy. The little guy who does not have the ability to move to the suburbs to not have to deal with the crap
You know why he went there, right? To rile up his west coast buddy!!!
Both parties did not seem to mind!!!
Uh, no.
When Ed Koch ran on the Republican ticket, did that make him a Republican? I think not.
He raised taxes instead of forcing the unions to give back and change sone of the awful work rules. Changes the last two democratic mayors(Dinkins and Koch both widly quoted also favored and were surprised bloomberg did not force sown the unions throughts
The issue of the hour. Was Ed Koch the first Gay Mayor of NYC
Many people believe he is
I was looking forward to voting for him in the first mayoral election that I was old enough to vote in. Then he lost in the Democratic primary. I never got my chance to vote for him!
I still remember pictures of him at the Brooklyn Bridge during the transit strike (see - I can get this on topic!) with thousands of people walking over the bridge screaming "how'm I doin'?"
It just makes and interesting conversational peice.
It pops up every now and then
The article tried to say she stoped because she was pregant. it made a good headline. In reality police need to be tenacious in issing tickets. There are far too many people who drive reclessly, play thier music too loud, don't recycle(our lovely city concil vetod the mayors plan to double the fine)etc who make living in this city a hassel.
It's time they pay the price.
An example, the ocean ave walkbridge across sheepshead bay.
Bike riding and casting ones fishing rod is not allowed. The bidge is 4-5ft wide. On a warm day like today last year thier would be dozens of people casting their rods and riding thier bikes across the bridge nearly runing people over. I was one that never followed the no bike riding sign. They never inforced it
Today I walked my bike across the bridge. no worth the penalty.
Plus in the past I have seen a few occasions where someone casting his rod nocked someone over. On one occasion the fishing hock got caught in a lady's arm
I hear you. That's the one thing that ruins a lot of the pleasure of walking across the East River bridges. I have happy memories of crossing the Manhattan Bridge from Brooklyn on the south side of the bridge back in the early `90s when there was work being done on that side. I was definitely the ONLY pedestrian on the whole bridge that time! And it did get pretty hairy at times since the "footpath" was only 2 by 4s in certain spots. Did get a nice view of Chinatown though....
I've often thought of designing a special hat for bridge walkers. Something with long stiff arms sticking out from the sides, say, two feet in length each side. To sort of give you a "comfort zone" where the damn speeding bicyclist would have to avoid. Or better yet, a belt with a similar apparatus. The belt would probably be in a better location in relationship to your body to create the zone. Just a thought.
We have finally found one thing we agree upon...that this whole thing is insane.
They do that here in California too. It is called a "penalty assessment" which is added to every traffic fine. In California it is currently 170%, so a $100,00 ticket costs a total of $270.00. The money collected is doled out to law enforcement and the courts, including judges' pensions.
The original penalty assessment was small, about 10% for court costs, but the legislators found it an easy way to fund various programs since there was not an organized group to oppose the increases.
Tom
NYPD is notorius for not writing summons. The fact that they are enforcing the traffic laws and other public safety laws is refreshing
All the local tabloid papers and tv stations are searching for weird summons. So far they came up with someone who alleges he got written up for sitting on a milk carton. The summons he got written up for had nothing to do with loitering
In many neighborhoods the populations are out of control. Nobody follows any laws
On all of these stories, we have read only one side of the story. We have not heard from a single officer who wrote a summons. We don't know if the woman on the stairs refused to move. We don't know if the fellow on the milk carton was up to something more dubious. We don't know anything about these citations.
Another poster used the example in the 81 where the police eliminated the problem of theft of construction materials by using the permit to carry them. The problem was solved rather easily there.
Yes, I agree - there are some cops who are out of control. But we cannot use these as examples as we are aware of only one side of the story.
Chip
P.S. I'm NOT a cop!
Great idea Fred, the police only enforce the law against those they do not like (or those who do not know their place). Unless there is a summons for "mouthy and nasty" that should not be the criteria for issuing a summons.
>>> Would a wealthy woman even ride the subway let alone sit on the steps? That means $50 clams was a pretty expensive summons for her. A warning I'm sure would have sufficed. <<<
Fred, you are becoming LIBERAL (or as it is called in Arcadia, the "L" word) in your old age. You are proposing a means test for receiving a summons. The poor get warnings, and the rich get tickets.
Tom
Actually, there is. It's a catch-all term called "Disorderly Conduct", which is what a police officer will charge you with if you get on his or her nerves- whether or not you're technically doing anything illegal.
I hate to sound politically incorrect, but that woman DID deserve her summons for sitting on the steps. That's a big tripping hazard for other people, and puts her fetus and herself at big risk. If she were injured by someone else falling over her, who's to say her lawyers wouldn't issue lawsuits to the state, city, MTA, et al?
Some years ago, there was a teenaged boy sitting on the steps leading to the Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights platform at the height of the evening rush. People kept yelling at him for his lack of consideration and to get up. A police officer explained that the station is used by many students from the nearby Lexington School for the Deaf- and hence, couldn't hear us. (Of course, he could easily SEE people gesturing with their hands to stand up!)
Is being deaf -OR pregnant- an excuse to obstruct public passage, especially subway stairs? Had that deaf teeanger been ticketed, there would've been cries of outrage similar to those in the wake of our pregnant woman.
In other words, NO ONE should sit and block subway stairs.
NY POST NYPD TICKET BLITZ IS A MYTH
But Bloomberg also tried to pin some of the blame for the ticket-blitz hype on stories featured prominently in the Daily News.
Cops have doled out fewer quality-of-life summonses so far this year than in 2002, Mayor Bloomberg said yesterday - and he blamed the police unions for helping to fuel the perception of a ticket blitz.
"Every time there's a union election . . . there's a ticket blitz" in the Police Department, the mayor said on WRKS-FM.
The PBA is in the middle of electing its leadership, and administration officials have said that current union chiefs are floating the ticket-quota claim to try to show members they need them to fight for them.
But a spokesman for the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Al O'Leary, said Bloomberg was simply shifting the blame.
O'Leary said cops are under intense pressure to write tickets for summonses that bring in revenue because of the budget crunch.
"We understand he's got to say something, but if you look at all the city agencies that are hyperactively writing tickets," you can't single out the cops, he said.
It's administration officials who have "everybody going nuts," he added.
But Bloomberg also tried to pin some of the blame for the ticket-blitz hype on stories featured prominently in the Daily News.
"What the Daily News has done is [say], 'You write in and we'll publish your name and picture and every crazy ticket you get,' and of course, out of the woodwork comes a lot of things," he said.
"We're actually running - in terms of summonses - behind where we were last year. I'm not so sure that's good, but it's certainly not that massive blitz that people complain about," he added.
The Teachers union just started running equally misleading advertisments yesterday claiming the city us huring high price administrators and firing teaching staff. The truth is the high price administrators are parent coordiantors which are not making huge money and the reduction in teaching staff are not teaches, but rather the ineffective, uneducated techers aids that in study after study have proven to be useless. The ad makes no refernce that the parent coordinators are being paid for out of reduction in the administrative costs of the districts.
We have anothe case of union leadership gone wild for the bennifit of the union leader not the members. In the case of the techer's, the new BofE structure helps them and most teachers can't wait to get the aids out of the room. A recent poll showed that most teachers found the uneducated aids as being a disraction to teaching
I just want to correct the headline - it really reads "MIKE: NYPD TICKET BLITZ IS A MYTH" What this mayor says has no credibility AFAIAC -
Good one. I remember when Newsday was just a simple tabloid. Happy with its' local coverage, content to be the successor to the Long Island Press. Then, the L.A. Times purchased it.....oy gevalt! Now it's a wannabe NY Times. There's still local coverage but you have to sludge through all kindsa silly "editorial slant" in the stories before the meat of the story comes through.
And yeah, Jimmy Breslin is a corker. For once, just once, I would love to see one of these "opinion writers" write an opinion that DOESN'T coincide with their known proclivities. It's like all these guys and gals are marching steadfastly ahead hashing and re-hashing their specific p.o.v. This is journalism? How about going out on a limb and actually do the earnest newspaper report for a "great metropolitan daily" thing that justifies someone who has a completely opposite p.o.v.? None of `em EVER do such a thing. Both "right" and "left".
Wayne
You have a very narrow view of the police - possibly due to personal experience, I'm guessing. Of all large police departments in the country, NYPD probably has the best community relations at the precinct level. The proof is that the combination of community policing, Compstat strategies and quality-of-life enforcement has been effective in bringing order to neighborhoods. Contrary to what you may believe, this cannot be achieved without the active cooperation of the public, which even in heavily minority neighborhoods has been the rule, not the exception.
"The police are already disliked by so many folks - one has to think that their may be good reason"
That's a myth driven by tabloid newspapers. In fact, NYPD enjoys the confidence of most people in even troubled neighborhoods. Part of this is due to the ease of access to the precinct (it's not hard to figure out who your beat cop is, who the operation Lt. is, the precinct commander and meet the person). Cases where NYPD officers exceed their authority make front page news, and Al Sharpton's smiling face is not far behind. On a case by case basis, he can be right - but recall his dishonesty regarding Tawana Brawley.
In places like Los Angeles, where the police have to patrol with far fewer officers, community relations can suffer because the only officer you see is in a patrol car, and he/she does not have time to get acquainted with people. Response to a call can take a lot longer than in NY, sometimes just due to driving distances. I lived in LA for years, and never knew who my division's commander was (LA has 18 patrol "divisions" to cover 434 square miles; NYPD has 75 precincts to cover 306 square miles). This leads to more difficulties in day-to-day work.
"Bloomberg needs to get a clue too."
Maybe. But have you examined honestly your own role in interactions with the police?
That's a myth driven by tabloid newspapers.
Not totally. I'd say respect and appreciation merged with fear, rather than dislike.
Let's consider a responsible minority couple with a 16 year old son. On the one hand, they are tremendously grateful for what the police have done to make their community safer for themselves and their son. On the other hand, they are concerned, and possibly seriously frightened, that something will go wrong someday and a reckless officer will mistake their son for a dangerous person.
Every responsible minority parent in low income areas of NYC teaches their teen-age sons exactly how to behave in the presence of police. White parents in an affluent suburb don't have to do that, because their son is not at risk from the police.
Source: detailed New York Times articles that have interviewed responsible minority members who are articulate and willing to be quoted.
"On the one hand, they are tremendously grateful for what the police have done to make their community safer for themselves and their son."
And they have shared information with the police, gone to Precinct Council meetings, met the precinct commander, called 911.
Otherwise, the police could never have accomplished that. It's a team effort.
"Every responsible minority parent in low income areas of NYC teaches their teen-age sons exactly how to behave in the presence of police."
Frankly, every parent should teach children to act that way. My parents taught me to act that way, and I'm not a minority. While there may be some fear involved (and it is not as universal as NY Times interviews imply), respect and dignity are factors too. And the average officer, when offered respect, will return the same.
"White parents in an affluent suburb don't have to do that, because their son is not at risk from the police."
And when those kids come into Philly or NY to make trouble and are arrested, those same parents gripe that their precious little angel was kept in the city jail's Neanderthal conditions (I guess that makes the Nassau jail the Hilton :0) ). How pathetic can you get?
In NYC, my concern is that although the NYPD is the most professional police department I have ever seen, its cops are drawn from the society it polices. That means it gets a few bigots who pass the psych screening somehow. Recall Abner Louima, for example. Where have you heard in modern times, or at all, of a white prisoner being tortured this way by the NYPD? Or, recall the black plainclothes narcotics sergeant who was shot...by his own men who mistook him for a perp. Or even the Desmond Robinson/Peter Del Debbio incident which took place on an F train at 53/Lex in 1994.
Robinson was a plainclothes Transit cop who was on duty and assigned to a detail in the IND. DelDebbio was off duty, a passenger on the F train standing in the station. A robbery took place in the mezzanine, shots were fired, and the perps ran down to the plat, chased by Robinson. DelDebbio hears the commotion and chases Robinson, shooting him several times. Robinson was black, DelDebbio white. Did DelDebbio's upbringing and mindset cause him to assume Robinson was a perp? History, again shows us that highly subjective things like perceptions influence behavior greatly.
By teaching my kids to be polite and cooperative with the police, they learn gentlemanly behavior, as well as presenting the least threatening appearance to the cop. Again, I know the NYPD to be one of the most professional police agencies in the world. But I've also seen the rookies in my own (minority) neighborhood who have had little or no interaction with minority cultures other than what they've been fed during their upbringing. More than one of them has admitted to me that they're a little nervous around us...
My wise ass buddy that lives two doors down from me has caught many a beating from poice officers over the years. He deserved most of them, but officer should not fight fire with fire, they should let the courts do thier job. I have to admitt that over the last few years officers have been showing much greater restraint. This is in part to police brass frowning on such actions
My buddy has been known to be as high as a kite and fight and resist when officer attempted to arrest him, spit in thier faces etc. It got to the point that the whole precent knew him and would pull him over for the most minor offenses such as driving 40 MPH in a 35 zone.
Drugs and heavy drinking make people act crazy and show no respect to officers trying to do thier job. It is no excuse for torturing someone. If a white guy gets tortured it's not news worthy. that is why you don't hear about it.
My freind who I have known since I was 6 years old has cleaned himself up finaly.
"But I've also seen the rookies in my own (minority) neighborhood who have had little or no interaction with minority cultures other than what they've been fed during their upbringing. More than one of them has admitted to me that they're a little nervous around"
It is more the media then onee's family that creates such fear. Turn on MYV and see all the violent video's. watch the 6 o'clock news and the constant reports of minorities commiting holdups and roberies.
Police officers should be hired from the pool of city residents PERIOD. Overt time the issue you bring up will go away.
STOP WITH THE "IT'S PERFECTLY OKAY TO UTTER RACE-SPECIFIC GENERALITIES WHEN IT'S "WHITE" AND "AFFLUENT SUBURB"" LOGIC!! Don't generalize. Damn it. A smart ass kid of whatever background is at risk when dealing with law enforcement. Tell me, do you personally KNOW every, as you put it, "White parents"? What the hell are you referring to when you use that descriptive? What is "white"? I don't appreciate it when people "judge the many by the actions of a few". I've never seen ANY race-specific comments about any other group here. For instance, there are a certain group of women of a specific "group" who ride the N train that engage in disgusting spitting on platforms and tracks and even in the damn trains. If you ride the N train in Brooklyn and are honest with yourself you know of whom I'm referring to. Or there are a certain "group" of people who love to blast loud boombox music inside subway cars, loud enough to cause ear pain. But nobody here EVER dares to utter from what "group" these people are members of. Let's call that reluctance to be completely factual "respect". It should apply across the board. I don't generalize like that. Nobody I would want to associate with does it. Enough already.
C'mon, let's talk about trains.
Well I'll take up the dare - it's those nasty Greenland Eskimos who are creating such a ruckus on the N!
Nah. Them sisters only take trains on snowy days....And they usin' dog sleds. Didn't you ever see `em on the unused Sea Beach express tracks? I have, way past midnight. Looked real spooky. Passed my train and faded into the snowy night ahead of the train. They really get those dogs movin'...
They moved to LI for the opurtunity to buy an afordable house without all the Poiltical BS and the lack of enforcement of the most basic laws. They want to get away from all the crap.
Unfortunately his point is valid. In the minds of far too many police officers, especially those who commute to work from the suburbs, the white kid running along the street is a jogger, but the Black/Hispanic kid running is a purse snatcher. Four white kids riding in a car are going to drive in to hang, while four Black/Hispanic kids riding in a car are going to a drive by to shoot . And the parents in the inner city know it. You should know it too from some of the TV magazine exposes of the difference in treatment of Whites and Blacks be police officers.
The inner city parents know their teen aged children may be facing a man with a gun who, if he is afraid of them, might shoot them. Their kids are taught not to make any ambiguous movements that might be interpreted as threatening. If stopped by a police officer on the street, they are taught not reach into any pocket unless directed to do so, and then slowly, and in a car, to remain seated quietly with their hands always in view (no looking around or reaching into a glove compartment or under a seat) while the officer approaches, and to follow his directions exactly as to getting out of the car and where to stand. No such training is routinely given to the suburbanites.
Tom
First off, I'm sorry to be posting yet ANOTHER O.T. post esp. one so onerous as the subject matter here. But really man, you must not have ever had a "meeting" with any cops. I've been stopped by cops over the years (statistically it'll happen to most people by and large if you live long enough). Not once, do you hear, not once would I EVER think of conversing with the armed officer in a beligerant manner. Not once did I ever do anything so damned foolish as to make a sudden movement with my hands, or quickly move from the cop, or not listen intently as he spoke to me. This, my friend, is called "common knowledge". My father stressed that point to me any number of times. Being as he was the father of my 8 brothers and sisters, and had been a paratrooper in the Army at the end of WW II, had built by himself the house on Long Island my family grew up in I deeply respected what he had to say.
IMO, you're being needlessly narrow minded in your interpretation of the current S.O.A. with civilian/police interaction. Maybe you never knew any wise guys when you were growing up. From where I came from trouble with the cops was freekin' par for the course! I knew guys, white guys, who fought with cops hand to hand on streets. I know plenty of guys, white and black who had to be restrained by numerous officers, and got a few whuppins from them besides. Man, you got to open your eyes! It's equal opportunity time out there vis-a-vie "dealin' wit' the nice officer!"
Like I said before, anybody who's lived any normal kind of American youth knows how to behave with police officers. I'm insulted that you insinuate that "only black" people have to incorporate this knowledge as how to behave in public. Go visit, why don't you, some lower income white communities in Brooklyn or Long Island. Try not to form "learned opinions" via book knowledge only. Walk the streets.
Sorry for the scolding tone of this ms. But the viewpoint you expressed is, really, not jibing with reality.
A funny example. My father called me the other day and told me that he heard some lady on the bus sat the police are writing tickets for blocking your own driveway.
completly false, you can park on the street blocking your driveway. there is no law against blocking a residential driveway.
Many people in many communities believe totaly false rumers as fact
Another example is all these tickets the NYPD is suddely giving out for quaility of life crimes. The statistics show a large decrease in quaility of life tickets this year
Why all the coverage, the police union brass are up for re-election. The union wants and issue to run on. Theier issue is ticket quota's for cops. They went to the daily news and fed them weird tickets
Obviously you came from a neighborhood where parents had reason to school their children on dealing with the police. It is different in affluent suburbs where the police know if they tune up one of the kids, a high priced lawyer will have a million dollar lawsuit filed within a week, and the kid's parents may have some juice with city hall. As long as the kids stay in their neighborhood, they are treated with kid gloves, and that is what their parents expect. These are parents and kids who see the police as hired help. It is not just a racial thing but a socioeconomic thing with racial overtones. In this county which is 44% white, the higher socioeconomic classes are mostly white, and the lower socioeconomic classes tend to be more non white. Although the homies from Pacoima know the score, the Valley Girls and their male counterparts from Encino are utterly clueless when dealing with the police, and when they multiply they will remain clueless as parents.
Unfortunately, because of the danger of DWB, which has seen doctors, lawyers, one judge, and prominent sports figures taken out of their expensive cars at gunpoint and proned out in the street by local police, even upper socioeconomic minority parents teach their kids to be careful with the police.
Tom
The whole DWB issue is way exagerated. There is a case in the courts here in NY this week where a judge crashed her rolls-royce into two parked cars and refused to take a blood-alcohol test. It is standard proceedure to arrest a driver who appears to be drunk and refuses to take an alcohol test. Of course since she also happens to be black, her lawyer conviently try's to play the race card saying she was only arrested becasue she was black. which is not true because NY law mandated an arrest if a person refuses and alcohol test and is involved in an accident
from NYPOST http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/397.htm
A high-decibel shouting match erupted in a Bronx courtroom yesterday when a lawyer for accused DWI Judge Donna Mills claimed his client had been arrested after crashing her Rolls-Royce last year only because she was black.
"When there's been confrontation with white police officers and black defendants, the history in this city is miserable," said Mills attorney Paul Gentile during a pre-trial hearing. "There is racial prejudice."
This falls intot he category, if you keep mentioning the same thing over and over again some people believe it to be true. First it was becasue all the cops in the city are white. then it was black cops have sold out to the man. these backwards thinking is what keeps people in fear for no reason
"Mills - a State Supreme Court judge - was arrested last July 22 after crashing her luxury sedan into two parked cars outside a Riverdale store.
Cops said the 50-year-old judge stank of liquor and slurred her words before refusing to take a blood-alcohol test. "
Of course being a judge, she knew that even though she was arrested, without the blood alcohol test, It was her word against the word of the police officet and she could play the race card in court.
It's unfortunite that people stomp on the real hard times many blacks faced 50 years ago.
"The face-off came after Officer Jessica Starling - who witnessed the alleged drunk-driving incident - told the court Mills had been extremely intoxicated when she was picked up.
"She was slumped over the steering wheel," said Starling. "Her eyes were bloodshot. She was incoherent and could not respond."
Starling - who describes herself as Latino - said she was "shocked and outraged" that Mills had accused the arresting officers of racism.
She said Mills asked cops for a cigarette and was turned down. Then, Starling testified, Mills told the cops they were targeting her "only because I'm black."
How was she targeted. SHE CRASHED HER CAR INTO TWO PARKED CARS AND WAS SO INTOXICATED SHE WAS STILL SLUMPED OVER THE STEERING WHEEL WHEN THE COPS ARRIVED
I grew up in a pleasant, mostly white middle class neighborhood of an economically mixed suburb. My parents taught me to be polite but not servile to everyone, including all kids and all adults. They NEVER told me I had to behave particularly cautiously with the police. That would never have occurred to them to be an issue.
Once I was stopped by police when going for a walk on a street without a sidewalk (I had stepped off the pavement to avoid oncoming cars and someone called the police to say they saw someone lurking in the bushes). The police were unfailingly polite (explaining why they stopped me) and so was I.
This is not the kind of upbringing you are describing. Different people grow up with different realities.
Not true, Most responcible parents tell thier children to listen to the officer and don't do anything foolish. You don't want to put the officer in a position where he has to react to something he may have though he saw.
I am white, have been pulled over a few times. If you start shuffling around in your car the officer pulls out a gun and makes everyone get out of the car.
If you sit thie with your handsa in view still and chatt it up nicely with the officer, you have no problem.
I have a few wise ass friends when I was in college. They would not follow good advise and we got pulled out of the car and frisked.
The facts are simple. Don't act flash or suspicious and the office will right the ticket and send you on your way. Be freindly if possible.
NYPD should be restricted to city residents only like many mayorial agencies. This will improve the quaility of middle class neighborhoods and gain attract a more diverse police force.
many negiative encounters such as the Diallo incident were caused by the person not listining to the police orders and making the officer make a difficult split secound decision
The myt
Here is an incident that happened to me a long time ago. I had pulled into my garage, closed the door and was walking towards my house - it was around 11pm. An unmarked car pulled up and the guys in it shouted "Hey You". I started running - they started chasing me. I knew not to scream "HELP" because I knew no-one responded to that so I started screaming "FIRE"...
They then identified themselves as cops and flashed a badge - I continued to shout "FIRE" at the top of my lungs because I did not believe they were who they said they were - I had heard too many stories about phony badges. People started coming out of their doors and the cops realized I was not who they were looking for and backed off. I think they also realized that I was in a state of total panic. They said there was a report of a stolen car and they saw me coming from that direction.
I was terrified not because they were cops but because I did not believe that they were cops. If I were black I'm sure the outcome would have been very different.
But I bet you never were able to confirm that they had received such a report. It is the sort of thing that is said anytime they act on a hunch that does not lead to any arrest. I have heard that line, or variations of it several times.
Tom
A simple PDA could have quickly and eaasily given out a license plate number, color and description of the perpertraitor reducing the possiblilty of an error.
A PDA does no good at all if a police officer wants to stop someone on a hunch. He will still say he has received a report that someone looking like the person he stopped had committed a crime in the area. The PDA has nothing to do with it.
Tom
The Courtesy, Professionalism and Respect slogan would be great if they did this. Also - most of us learn at a very young age that a person must respect others if they expect to be respected, but I guess the NYPD hasn't learned that yet. Now - I'll be the first to admit that there are good and bad with any PD and any group of people period. However, the picture Rudolph was painting was crap. Does anyone remember how when a civilian was accused (not convicted or even indicted) of a violent crime... Rudolph was ready to throw the book at 'em - then when there were allegations of police misconduct, then he'd change his tune to... "lets wait for all the facts to come in".
If you think the police are not disliked (and feared) by many folks - and I mean hard-working, law-abiding people (not criminals), then we'll just have to disagree. It's very sad that I (and many other young men) have to be taught how to act when dealing with the police - just so you can survive any dealings with the police. Remember they're the professionals.
Now - to answer your question about my honesty of my role in my dealings with the police... Well, I just thought about it - again... and I still stand by what I said in my previous post. If you disagree... that's OK, because I'm not at all looking for anyone's approval.
Wayne
-Stef
Keep asking brahs, and the GO's don't come any sooner.
Canarsie out, Rock Park out as potential lunch stops, I'll take a gamble and say the 1st special will head to Stillwell. Nathan's anyone?
-Stef
http://64.227.188.59/nathans/coupon.html
I've been meaning to praise The Roof for its diversified video mix, which frequently feature transit. A typical evening may feature clips from Canada, Cuba, Argentina, England, India and even Malaysia. They had the Mexico City subway last night, plus a public service announcement with an F slapped on a 42nd St shuttle for some reason.
Two with locations I'm curious about: Phil Collins did a remake of Come Take Me Home with Bone, Thugs and Harmony at an elaborate European rail station in a city with light rail. It's cold, but not enough for snow. The other video has a shot of a light rail car marked Metrarail; the cars have California plates.
I would love to contact the show, but am unfamiliar with MUN2.
What is the full name of the channel. What cable system are you on.
This kind of Public Relations is so helpful to my company.
Any info you can give me would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Subway grrl
Their corporate office address is
2470 W. 8th Ave.
Hialeah, FL 33010
Tel. 305-882-8700
Fax. 305-889-7203
They are online (in both languages, happily) at www.mun2tv.com
ZIG
Will try to get a copy!
Subway grrl
They are also sending me a copy of the show.
Thank you, thank you so much.
If anyone else has any connections for me, I promise to make the best of them!
Subway grrl
The project is a passenger view panel for a freeware subway simulation called Boso View Express (BVE). I have an New York City Subway IRT Flushing Line Redbird I'd like to convert from a cabview
to a passenger view.
Thanks for the minute!
Christopher Tarana
Christopher
Good luck on your project.
Paul
Christopher
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Now do I REALLY have to be up at 3 AM and run to the first train over the new trackage at 5 AM Monday morning? Subtalkers will be lively there, have fun!
Can't reply for the rest of the night and tommorrow so have a great jolly rapid transit weekend everyone.
A moment of silence for the end of an era....
Actully some stations have gotten reproductions of the old style twin lighting, such as Myrtle-Broadway. These below at Myrtle look like the old lamps, but are brand new. They are a bit taller than the original, although have the same exact style. I wish they installed these repro lights at other stations as well, but unfortunately most got modern looking lights.
My wild guess is there maybe an electrical problem in that circuit and rather than run a new line, they strung up those "bank of lights" we all see in the tunnels.
"I wish they installed these repro lights at other stations as well, but unfortunately most got modern looking lights."
Try Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton Line. They are an exact reproduction of those twinlamp fixtures.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those are original. We were discussing reproduction fixtures.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geesh, that photo also rememinds me that the daytime M line has such nice peaceful terminals at both ends of it's run. Metro is like stopping in the middle of the woods, and 9th Ave also is fairly wooded.
This time I was hoping to catch a quick ride on the L, through the Snediker El, ride a Diamond 7 of redbirds, a diamond 6 and possibly try to make a subway-commuter change at Marble Hill (but it worked SOOO well last time!). I guess I'll have to scratch the Snediker El off my list, but the other half of the L is still there, down to Rockaway Park 105th. Way I figure it, by the time I cover the Manhattan, Queens, Bronx and Brooklyn IRT routes Coney Island, the MannyB will be reopened and I'll cover the Q, N, B, and D. Perhaps for one of those I can have a true railfan day, riding the SNJLRTS up to Trenton, NEC to Newark, obligitory ride on NCS, then PATH to Pavonia for a ride on HBLRT (which I have yet to set foot on :[), then catch either another PATH or a Ferry to Lower Manhattan to start my trip on NYCTA.
Oh well, there are my railfan wishlist plans for the next year or so. I'm not completely sure why I'm posting them. And by no means am I working out a subtalk gathering for the thursday after next, I have no idea when I'll actually get up to NY, some time over my abbreviated summer break is all I know, everything could change in an instant.
They are also working on the tracks by East 1105th Street
Thank You
The G.O. notices on the walls however said that trains were running in two sections (8 Av to B'way Junction / B'way Junction to Rockaway Parkway).
At least Graffiti had some artistic value to it. Especially in the 1970s and so on there was some really nice stuff done, albeit at the MTA's expense. Recently the graffiti of the 70s has been overtaken by tagging, which is just an obnoxious spraypainting of some stupid symbol requiring absolutely NO artistic talent whatsoever, graffiti for the unwashed masses. Nobody will ever make a coffeetable book about the tagging of the '90s and '00s, and all Scratchiti is is tagging done to a surface in which an impression can be made easily. The ultimate in 'thug' expression, completely devoid of any artistic value and full of destruction of property.
1) Does he have to check the back indication to make sure its good before closing the front? Sometimes he starts closing the front before the back is all locked. Is this the only cause of draggings?
2) Does the T/O's indication include the back? If so why is it necessary to close the back first?
3) Can the T/O's and C/R's indications differ at any time? If not what causes the following occasion: doors closed, train moves a few inches before doors reopen again for a second and T/O stops short (has happened a lot on trains I've been on)
There was an incident like this on the road right before this thread started.
I know about it because I was at Jay St. for paperwork on my own time and they would not let me leave, insisting I was the T/O involved.
I never much cared for the newer stuff. The 32's and 38's were OK although for an AMUE man like me, SMEE was confusing at times. Didn't behave "properly" ... ran 42's and 44's in school car but never got one on the road. And as I was observed handling them like Arnines, they were just as happy to let me HAVE the clunkers since so many of the oldtimers were leaving in droves and the new guys didn't want to hear about two radically different operating modes.
My "unintended add" had the same results and ended my days with the TA. But in my situation, wasn't bad operating, it was a bad trainline. Needles went upside down on me. Whump. I did enjoy the WAA's at 168th though when I got them - turning B's into AA's and vice versa. INTENDED cuts and adds were an easy check. :)
Did the contractor drop out of the project
DAMNED shame they got rid of Beulah the buzzer. When I got my clear and saw the orange lights of happiness go dark, I'd make it a point if I didn't see guard lights dying to put my finger on Beulah the buzzer and hold onto it until I heard door air. :)
A neat feature on the standards was instant zoning when the conductor inserted his door key. It was a nice added bonus when those cars were retrofitted with MUDC.
One person can both operate the doors, drive the train and check for draggers.
The T/O needs to have the proper equitment available to do so
For starters, the conductor will have indication whenever the
doors in that zone are closed, but the motorman doesn't get it
until the conductor turns the MDC key. There are other conditions
where the conductor will have indication but not the motorman:
motorman's reverse key is not thrown or train is in emergency.
RULE 42(c) - A train will be removed from passenger service, passengers will be discharged at the next station and the train will be sent to a shop per Command Center's orders when:
1. The Train Operator and/or Conductor receives indication with a side door or doors open or,
2. The Train Operator and/or Conductor receives indication with all doors closed and a guard light is illuminated or,
3. The Train Operator loses indication and/or a side door or doors open and the train continues to take power.
It should be noted that in any situation, even if the T/O has indication the train still gets taken out of service if the C/R does not.
Thread on the Strappies' Board:
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000256#000028
A picture in question...
The lack of light in the corner. The Allstate sign should be in clearer foucus than the Moore, the Moore is farther away and the focus is set for a close shot.
The pole seems very well placed for a splice job, too.
David
1) Train stops
2) C/R inserts key and simultaneously presses front and back buttons to open train
3) Keeping key in, C/R closes back doors and waits for a light to show that all back doors are closed
4) C/R closes front doors and waits for another light to show all front doors are closed
5) C/R turns some sort of key that finally gives the T/O indication
But hold on. I've seen C/Rs start closing front doors while the back doors are still closing.
The Chicago Tunnel Company Railroad Home Page
What train is this? It sounds like a deep foghorn, except stranger. At first, no one would ever guess it was a train's horn. Are there any "special" AMTRAK trains that run at this particular time or is it just my imagination (it's not)?
wayne
Go to this site and play the audio clip and compare:
http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/a200.html
CG
If we could collaborate on what AMTRAK train runs through the NEC around 11:10pm on a weeknight, I think we would know the equipment, no?
BTW, why did they get rid of NED and other, regular commuter trains, and only Regional and the AE is left?
Perhaps what you heard was a freight on the line that runs through North Edison -- I know there's at least one grade crossing up there, but I've long since forgotten the name of the street.
CG
Is there another scheme on how engineers blow their whistles?